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    In The New Republic, in "The Other Secret Jews," Adam Kirsch reviews The Dönme: Jewish Converts, Muslim Revolutionaries, and Secular Turks by Marc David Baer.A number of years ago, a friend in Istanbul mentioned several times that many of his friends and acquaintances in classical music, cinephile, and other high culture circles in the Turkish...
  • well i am an alevi and i do really think we are hellenized and then islamized pan jewish nation because lots of common esoteric relations, rituals and symbols we have been sharing with current jews.there is no difference between levite and alevite just a mask of islam thats all.

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  • The port city at the north end of the Aegean Sea, spelled Thessaloniki since Greece seized it from the Ottoman Empire before WWI, would be a fine setting for an Umberto Eco novel or a Dan Brown knock-off of an Eco novel. Salonika had an appropriately Byzantine social history a century ago. It was the...
  • Of course, now it is the center point of Alan Furst's new novel – Spies of the Balkans. Not medieval history as you write, but Salonika just before the invasion by the Germans in World War 2.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    "The port city at the north end of the Aegean Sea, spelled Thessaloniki since Greece seized it from the Ottoman Empire before WWI, "

    Yes and the Israelis change the name of Al Quds to Jerusalem when Israel seized it from Britain?

    The city was named Thessaloniki when it was founded about 2500 years ago. It continued with that name for about 2000 years. It was called Thessaloniki, Solun (Slavic) Salonik (Turkish) and Salonica (Sephardic) by the various groups living within the city during the Ottoman Period (a few hundred years).

    The Greeks didn't change the name as you imply. They use their name.

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  • In The New Republic, in "The Other Secret Jews," Adam Kirsch reviews The Dönme: Jewish Converts, Muslim Revolutionaries, and Secular Turks by Marc David Baer.A number of years ago, a friend in Istanbul mentioned several times that many of his friends and acquaintances in classical music, cinephile, and other high culture circles in the Turkish...
  • hmm……"secular ultranationalists" that are against an "Islamic-inspired" government……perhaps the "secular ultranationalists" are the "scotch-irish" of turkey….

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    "In one of the toughest actions against the powerful Turkish military in the history of modern Turkey, the police detained three of the country’s highest-ranking former generals on Monday as part of a vast and lengthy investigation into a shadowy ultranationalist movement accused of planning to overthrow the Islamist-inspired government."

    Once again, Steve is ahead of the news.

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  • "In one of the toughest actions against the powerful Turkish military in the history of modern Turkey, the police detained three of the country’s highest-ranking former generals on Monday as part of a vast and lengthy investigation into a shadowy ultranationalist movement accused of planning to overthrow the Islamist-inspired government."

    "…The case, which has riveted Turks, revolves around a suspected conspiracy by secular ultranationalists accused of developing several plots to attack civilian targets, like a mosque in central Istanbul, and to provoke a crisis with neighboring Greece, with a goal of paving the way for a coup."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/23/world/europe/23turkey.html

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Anon of 2/18 – of course it is true that the Persians and Indians also contributed greatly to the so-called golden age of Islamic learning.

    The point to be made here is that Islam conquered areas previously inhabited by two of the world's great ancient civilizations – the Greco-Roman (Asia Minor, Egypt, Syria, Palestine) and the Persian. Almost nothing in its so-called golden age was originally Islamic. The glories of Abbasid Baghdad or Ottoman Turkey were essentially the result of living off cultural capital that had been earned long before the rise of Islam. Islam deserves no credit for the result.

    When the jihadis invaded Alexandria, they burned the manuscripts of its ancient library to heat their bath water. This seems to me to be entirely typical Muslim behavior.

    Christendom, on the other hand, inherited the Italian peninsula and a handful of Rome's less wealthy and less developed imperial possessions in Gaul, Britain, and Iberia. To them it added parts of northern Europe that the Romans never conquered, and with these seemingly unpromising raw materials created western civilisation.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    "it is worth pointing out that much of the so-called golden age of Islamic learning was due to the ancestors of these people – followers of late antique Neoplatonism who preserved the knowledge of Greek and translated many ancient Greek philosophical and scientific works into Arabic."

    Yes but also most of the leading figures of that golden age were Persians or "central asian aryans" ie intellectuals from Bactria, Transoxiana, Sogdia, etc. who converted to Islam and spoke Arabic but whose cultural legacy was Persian, not Arabic. It wasn't just Greek learning that supported the Islamic Golden Age, but Persian and even Indian learning (from whence we got our "Arabic" numerals, for instance), translated into Arabic.

    "of course, as David said, you can find exotic religious beliefs downtown in the US. but they simply don't have the history and class of their Middle Eastern counterparts"

    Not being persecuted they don't have to hide and dissimulate, so that makes them appear less exotic. But also, Western culture simply doesn't have the same affinity for metaphysical speculation or the same mania for preserving ancient folkways and superstitions.

    In the USA, the Mormons or the snake-handlers or the Scientologists or the Seventh Day Adventists are minor irritants, at best; they aren't normal. In the middle east they would be normal. That is to say, even as oppressed minorities, their tendency to form inbred sectarian communities is the norm in the middle east; it is not the norm in the West.

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  • I wonder how things would have played out if the Turks had sat out WWI like they sat out WWII. If Mussolini been like more like Ataturk, Italy might have been spared too.

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  • A picture says a thousand words. Just look at him!

    And here's smail Cem, the recent foreign minister.

    The level of conspiracy theories among Turks is quite extraordinary, but you can't really blame them. The more you learn the more you get sucked into the idea of machinations within machinations, worlds within worlds…

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  • Felix M

    I meant that if you want to find crypto-Jews, you can find them downtown in Anywhere USA. You can even find them running the megachurch.

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  • and don't forget the fascinating Mandeans – a religious group found in Iraq and Iran

    their origins are obscure but it seems to me that the best guess is they're the descendants of Gnostics from 1st century Israel

    of course, as David said, you can find exotic religious beliefs downtown in the US. but they simply don't have the history and class of their Middle Eastern counterparts

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Apropos of the "50,000 Gnostics in Southern Iraq who believe in planetary archons," it is worth pointing out that much of the so-called golden age of Islamic learning was due to the ancestors of these people – followers of late antique Neoplatonism who preserved the knowledge of Greek and translated many ancient Greek philosophical and scientific works into Arabic. Thebit ben Corath, one of the principal mediaeval Arabic authorities on algebra, was one of these people. They were allowed to survive as dhimmis, because they had a sacred scripture (the Corpus Hermeticum) and believed in a creator – thus qualifying as one of the "peoples of the book" along with Jews and Christians.

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  • The Catholics should move to the Republic if they don't want to be British.

    Or the British could just go back to Britian.

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  • So Huffington Post stateside and the mainstream news outlets in Europe have published the smiling mug shots of the eleven person Mossad assassination team caught working in Dubai.

    Dubai Hamas assassination: 'Israeli hit-squad' used fake British passports

    …but 'conservative' Matt Drudge and the rest of the big 'liberal' news services in the USA mostly took a pass.

    What is this sneaky group of international criminals to be called — Moshe's Eleven? Blogs are chattering anew about that Spielbergian Mossad vengeance movie from a few years back. Rent it today! And you too can begin piecing the Dubai mystery together along with Scotland Yard!

    I wonder what sort of Hollywood office suite shouting matches took place during the production of that Spielberg film. I will guess that the sticky wicket was 'just how much of our Israel business do we really want to show them (the audience)?' I bet there were some conversations this week where deep regrets were voiced about the wisdom of doing that movie.

    Hmmmmmm. Anyway, Steve, our friends in internet land seem to disagree on just what is the news and what is thought crime. Kudos to Ms Huffington for refusing to allow Mossad to have editorial control of her website.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    "The interesting part is the impact of dysgenic fertility. My understanding is that the low IQ rural people have been outbreeding the high IQ urban people for a long time now."

    You're talking about Turkey, right? Or…every other civilized society in history? I can't tell.

    If dumb hicks having more kids than city slickers is "dysgenic" then we hit rock bottom a long, long time ago. A little more won't hurt.

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  • "Armenians . . . wanted to preserve the Armenian nature of their great grandchildren here in the USA."

    The Kardashian great grandparents must really be spinning in their Los Angeles graves.

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  • Perhaps they forged themselves some Scotch-Irish passports.

    LOL.

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  • A little off-topic, but over at AoSHQ, they're discussing what sounds like a real-life Ziva David operation.

    Apparently somebody forged themselves some Irish passports…

    Perhaps they forged themselves some Scotch-Irish passports.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    "And yet, Turkey has managed to get through the last 85 years with mostly only some regrettable Kurd-stomping and a few coups. Most Turks have lived out their lives in peace."

    Right, and there is a reason for that: the practically unchallenged power of the military. After all, this was Ataturk's legacy, the army as …guarantor of 'secular democracy'.

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  • "Repartition of Ireland/Northern Ireland the same way, that little matter would be solved."

    That was already done. The Catholics should move to the Republic if they don't want to be British.

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  • Cypress should be returned to Greece, as should Constantinople.

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  • 85 years is an interesting cut off steve, since 90 years ago they had ethnic cleansing in proportion to the numbers – far worse than anything in WWII – they have been stable because they ethnically cleansed.. so why are we trying to do the opposite?

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Good fences make good neighbors as far as I am concerned.

    The great and the good are all agreed that the current partition of Cyprus. Turks in the north east, Greeks in the south west, is A Very Bad Thing which must be ended as soon as possible. Yet for thirty years people on the island havent been killing each other.

    It looks like a solution to me.

    Repartition of Ireland/Northern Ireland the same way, that little matter would be solved.

    Then there is Sri Lanka, the Cypriot solution screams out its obviousness.

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  • Turkey strikes me as one of the great diplomatic / political success stories of the last 85 years. If you look at a globe, the single most strategic location is probably Turkey — it's the opposite of Sweden, which is on the road to nowhere. Turkey, even more so than Lebanon, Iraq, and the Holy Land, is hub of the Old World.

    And yet, Turkey has managed to get through the last 85 years with mostly only some regrettable Kurd-stomping and a few coups. Most Turks have lived out their lives in peace.

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  • Ataturk was indeed a Donme born, not in Turkey, but in Salonika, Greece. The Young Turks (called the Ittihad in Turkey) were a nationalist (not Islamic) party who were instrumental in the Turkish entry into WW I and the concurrent massacre of the Armenians. Ataturk continued the secular and nationalist cause after WW I with the massacre and expulsion of Greeks from western Turkey. Both the Ittihad and Ataturk's followers included numerous Donme.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    What is most interesting to me about Turkey isn't the fate of various minorities, be they Christian or Jewish.

    The interesting part is the impact of dysgenic fertility. My understanding is that the low IQ rural people have been outbreeding the high IQ urban people for a long time now.

    The result is that each successive government is more and more beholden to the low IQ rural people who happen to be more islamic. There is no hope for non Islamic people in Turkey. They are best off moving somewhere else.

    I am not a greek and I am not a Turk so I have an outsider's perspective on the battle between Greeks and Turks. But it seems to me that the separation of the two groups, through population exchange, was immensely successful. I mean, if Greeks and Turks still lived intermixed with each other there would be constant fighting and the GNP of both countries would be consumed in warfare.

    Good fences make good neighbors as far as I am concerned.

    In general, I think that if ethnic groups can't get along with each other, they should find an orderly and humane way to sell their businesses and houses and move to different countries.

    For example, if you are a person of Japanese ancestry living in the USA, and you are concerned that your children will pick up values and habits that you don't like, you can move back to Japan where you will be welcomed with open arms. Your children will grow up in a racially pure place, and marry other Japanese.

    Similarly, if you want to live in a place that is all white that practices traditional Catholicism, Poland is the place to go. If you raise your kids in Poland they are certain to marry whites and certain to grow up with a level of respect for Catholic doctrine that you just can't find in the USA.

    History shows that in the USA, just about all groups bleed in to one. The fact that pretty much all kids born here speak English and all go to public schools with kids of other ethnicities means that it is hard to maintain any sort of tradition here over the course of a few generations.

    In the USA of 1910, just about everyone wanted their children and grandchildren to marry within the same narrowly defined ethnic group. I mean, Chinese people in the USA wanted ethnically pure Chinese great grandchildren to be living in 2010. Armenians, with a fresh experience of genocide certainly wanted to preserve the Armenian nature of their great grandchildren here in the USA. Irish people wanted ethnically pure Irish great grand children to be living in 2010. But it just doesn't play out that way here in the USA.

    It seems to me that the only way to preserve your ethnic group is to live within an enclave that is closed to the outside world (ie live like the Amish) or instead move to an ethnically pure country (like Poland or Japan)
    Anything else, and you are doomed to having great grandchildren that are different than what you want

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Looking for "secret Jewish cabals" controlling the world is akin to putting on the tin-foil hat.

    Whiskey, for a Scots-Irish evangelical [& mysoginistic bachelor], you sure do seem to have a staggering amount of insider's knowledge about the history of world Jewry [knowledge which you tend assert with a rather impressive amount of Alpha Male testosterone - at least for a Beta who can't seem to score with the Shiksas].

    Hey, let me ask you this: Have you ever heard of a chick named Sibel Edmonds, and her accusation that the Mossad was running the Turkish desk through Mark Grossman and his successors?

    People have speculated that instead of trying to cover up his role in the 9-11 fiasco, Sandy Berger was actually trying to destroy the evidence which implicated his involvement in the Turkish mess.

    BTW, if you look at the history of the Turkish desk, then it seems to have had more than it's fair share of Chosen People [going back well before the foundation of Israel in 1947/48]:

    Oscar S. Straus (1887-1889)
    Solomon Hirsch (1889-1892)
    Oscar S. Straus (1898-1899)
    John G. A. Leishman (1899-1901)
    John G. A. Leishman (1901-1909)
    Oscar S. Straus (1909-1910)
    Henry Morgenthau, Sr. (1913-1916)
    Abram I. Elkus (1916-1917)
    Joseph Grew (1927-1932)
    Robert P. Skinner (1933-1936)
    Laurence A. Steinhardt (1941-1945)
    Robert Komer (1968-1969)
    Ronald I. Spiers (1977-1980)
    James W. Spain (1980-1981)
    Robert Strausz-Hupe (1981-1989)
    Morton I. Abramowitz (1989-1991)
    Marc Grossman (1994-1997)
    Eric S. Edelman (2003-2005)

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  • A little off-topic, but over at AoSHQ, they're discussing what sounds like a real-life Ziva David operation.

    Apparently somebody forged themselves some Irish passports…

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  • Why pick Turkey as an example of this? Exoticism, I suppose. You could just go downtown. Or even the nearest mega-church.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    neodon sez:What happened to Armenians was truly tragic, but 'shit happens' during or following horrible wars.

    Nice try at obfuscation. The Armenian genocide is being swept under the carpet by Turks, Israel and US elements in order to prevent any parallel with the holocaust and serve the current strategic interests of the neocons. But in fact the Armenian genocide was a precursor to the holocaust and even encouraged Hitler in his evil intent. So it should by extension be condemned as much. However that would not serve the interests of certain quarters…

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  • It is a little known fact that 95% of the Africans taken to the Western Hemisphere as slaves went to someplace other than the United States (or the British colonies that became the USA).

    Any guesses as to why this fact is so little known?

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  • I have to say that my faith in Whiskey's Scots-Irishness is somewhat shaken.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Look, Jews are smart and bound to succeed as Jews or crypto-Jews.

    Look, nobody doubts that Jews are smart and bound to "succeed." That's a prerequisite for being able to successfully use political, social, and economic influence to work for one's interests under various regimes throughout history. You have to be smart to survive for 2K years wandering around in foreign territory and end up recovering your homeland and being arguably one of the most powerful national groups. The dumb groups don't make it. And groups that don't care enough don't make it either; they say the hell with it to both explicitly being part of the group or through crypsis.

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  • Longtime readers may remember that Steve used to peddle the theory that Paul Wolfowitz advocated invading Iraq in order to impress his Arab mistress. I wonder what happened to that idea.

    Probably went the same way as Paul Wolfowitz. Quietly into obscurity.

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  • @neodon

    1) The Dönmeh are not Ashkenazi.
    2) Persecutions of Armenians began in 1908, well before the World War was underway.

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  • C.S. Lewis's Out of the Silent Planet has stuff reminiscent of the planetary archons, i.e. an angel in charge of each one, and each one bringing the gift the planet is supposedly known for — Mercury the gift of gab (messenger of the Gods), Jupiter magnamity and so forth. Kind of weird stuff, kindof cool though , read with Holst's 'The Planets' blaring!

    I've always felt Lewis's sci-fi gets less attention than it deserves.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Look, Jews are smart and bound to succeed as Jews or crypto-Jews. Indeed, if you were take a 1000 Ashkenazi Jewish babies and give them to Catholic parents to be raised as pure Catholics, they would still succeed more than non-Jews. It's due to high IQ and restless racial personality.
    If Milton Friedman had been raised as a Baptist or Mormon(without knowing he's Jewish), he would reached to the top of any profession. But, if you took a baby of a dimwit redneck and gave him to a Jewish family, the kid would grow up dumb EVEN IF raised Jewish. It's about genetics.

    So, the success of Donmes in Turkey was about as predictable as the success of secular anti-religious Jews in the USSR.

    As for Young Turk persection of Christian Armenians and Greeks, it almost certainly had nothing to do with Donmes being crypto-Jews.

    Newly independent Greece waged wars on Turkey to take back Istanbul/Constantinople with the backing of Western powers. The Turks also feared that Armenians would side the Russians during WWII, and there was some justification for this fear. Turks did horrible things to Greeks, but there were horrible Greek massacres of Turks too. What happened to Armenians was truly tragic, but 'shit happens' during or following horrible wars.

    What happened to the Armenians was similar to what happened to Germans in the East after WWII. The Allies decided to uproot 10-12 million Germans and push them westward. In the process, 1-2 million Germans died. The Allies–and Poles, Czechs, and Russians–took callously vengeance on the Ost-Germans though most of them had lived in Eastern lands for centuries.

    During and after WWI, the Turks took vengeance on Armenians for the disasters that befell Turkey. If what the Turks–with or without Donme contribution–did to the Armenians was genocide, what the Allies did to Ost-Germans was genocide. There may have been no clear blue-print to kill millions of people, but the drastic actions were taken with full knowledge that millions might die. They just didn't care in the climate of anger and vengeance.

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  • "We think of Muslim lands as uniformly Islamic, but there are millions of people there who are only vaguely Muslim…"

    Steve lectures us on this point (throwing in an insincere "we" for good measure) just before telling us how Paul Wolfowitz surely must have had a red phone to unnamed, vaguely Jewish diplomats in Turkey during 2003.

    Longtime readers may remember that Steve used to peddle the theory that Paul Wolfowitz advocated invading Iraq in order to impress his Arab mistress. I wonder what happened to that idea.

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  • Totally off topic, but your VDARE column on the Atlantic article by Don Peck was excellent.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Looking for "secret Jewish cabals" controlling the world is akin to putting on the tin-foil hat. Since the Diaspora, Jews have made various accomodations with Romans, Goths, Muslims, Carolingians, Czars, Hapsburgs, and others, all of which have proved temporary and ineffective (i.e. like most minorities in multi-ethnic/religous empires, they are subject to purging).

    Ok. So Jews have made "various accomodations" with arguably the great powers of their time and place throughout history. What this means is that they used their political, social, and economic influence to work for their interests under various regimes throughout history. I mean, they weren't mercenaries or soldiers providing military services in return for the protection of the regime or something. They no doubt faced persecutions, but they were successful overall in using their influence for their survival and interests. After all, those groups you mentioned destroyed many peoples that, unlike the Jews, don't exist today.

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  • Looking for "secret Jewish cabals" controlling the world is akin to putting on the tin-foil hat.

    Nothing Steve has said here involves "secret Jewish cabals" or "controlling the world." He doesn't make such expansive and extraordinary claims. It's a fairly narrow claim about a historically documented group of crypto-Jews in Turkey. Why do you deceive and misdirect people?

    Since the Diaspora, Jews have made various accomodations with Romans, Goths, Muslims, Carolingians, Czars, Hapsburgs, and others, all of which have proved temporary and ineffective (i.e. like most minorities in multi-ethnic/religous empires, they are subject to purging).

    Yes, they have been temporary, but that's the nature of the strategy, of the various hosts, and of, well, life and things in general. I wouldn't say it's been "ineffective" however. That's not to say that everything has been easy and rosy, of course. But they have managed to survive for 2,000 years in various environments following the destruction of their homeland, and they have recovered their old territory. Do you think the Iroquios (if there are any even left) will recover upstate New York 2,000 years from now?

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Paul Johnson's, "History of the Jews" was a good read.

    "who after Zevi's apostasy, had publicly converted to Islam but had continued to worship Zevi, and remained a small, endogamous elite who played key roles in Turkish revolutions and subsequent life."

    …..you couldn't put that in a novel, its too far-fetched to be fiction. Only something thats actually true could be so improbable. The fact (and its a fact dear readers, sorry) that so many leading Bolsheviks and Mensheviks were Jewish comes as an eye-opening suprise when one reads about that era. History gets "misty" in this area as historians afraid of being accused of improper attitudes don't bring it up. As always, the best policy is to just get the truth out there, even if its uncomfy for some, for people's consideration.

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  • from Anon upstream:From the TNR article:
    "Baer emphasizes that the CUP was not a Dönme party—any more than the Russian Bolsheviks, though they included many Jews, were a Jewish party"

    Yeah, nothing new here. Once you've read Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's "200 Years Together", nothin suprises you anymore.

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  • Except the reality is, that the Sultans use of various non-Muslim minorities: Dragoman Greek Orthodox, Armenians, Jews, Maronite Christians, etc. as elites who blocked ordinary Muslim advances led catastrophic ethnic/religious cleansing and Islamism.

    The Young Turks who advocated reform got crushed by the Sultan's Islamists, who he unleashed on the Young Turks AND the Armenians, who had popular hatred for their favored position inside the Caliphate.

    Ataturk was no Donme, Armenian, Jew, Maronite, or Greek. But he recognized the failure of the Islamist model at Meggido where his forces were wiped out by Allenby's combined arms of airplanes, artillery, and motorized infantry.

    Ataturk's early death ended his push to de-Islamicize Turkey into something akin to the West. The current ruling party is throwing over the secularization, and using Islamic resentment of urbanized, rich elites by the rural poor to maintain power in economic collapse and European rejection.

    Looking for "secret Jewish cabals" controlling the world is akin to putting on the tin-foil hat. Since the Diaspora, Jews have made various accomodations with Romans, Goths, Muslims, Carolingians, Czars, Hapsburgs, and others, all of which have proved temporary and ineffective (i.e. like most minorities in multi-ethnic/religous empires, they are subject to purging).

    I had a Professor at Business School from Turkey. She was no Donme, but was part of the Urbanized, post-Islamic elite. Sure, she was easy to get along with, but no more represented Turkey than Ryan Seacrest represents most American men.

    The story of Turkey is not the marginal Donme but the failure of Ataturk.

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  • Bin Laden's mom was Alawite. Don't know what that means.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Brazil was a huge recipient of slaves. Largely because of the sugar industry. It received a little over a third of all slaves from Africa.

    It's funny that considering all the Arabs, native Africans, Jews, et al that were involved in the slave trade, it's always the gentile North American Whites and Europeans that are tainted with the Sin of Slavery. Hell, even the European South Americans seem to get somewhat of a pass – I guess they can hide under the murky "Hispanic" label or something.

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  • "Slave trade"

    Right. Paul Johnson has a section in his "History of the Jews" praising the major ethnic Jewish role in developing the sugar industry in Brazil. I recall reading that and thinking, "Sugar industry in Brazil … wait a minute, wasn't that a main engine of the slave trade because it killed off so many blacks?"

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    From the TNR article:
    "Baer emphasizes that the CUP was not a Dönme party—any more than the Russian Bolsheviks, though they included many Jews, were a Jewish party"

    Heh-priceless.
    I guess it must have been a complete coincidence that the fierce persecutions these "Young Turks" executed once they came to power were targeted at Christian minorities that happened to be Dönme's main business competitors (Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians etc.)
    Much like the coincidence of christian Ukrainian and Russian peasants being the target of the famine caused by forced collectivisation of land in the early USSR.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    From the TNR article:

    "That Spinoza and Montaigne, those skeptical modern minds, were both descendants of conversos, and that New Christians played a major role in the economy of the New World, is seen as evidence that these Jewish converts helped to invent the secular world we live in."

    The crypto-Jews were heavily involved in the slave trade. Though this is for some reason or other always missed, or glossed over as "a major role in the economy of the New World" or some other such dissembling. It's always the Evil White Gentile Men and Slavery.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The Donmeh are representative of how in the realm of the old Byzantine Empire, things are lot more, well, byzantine than we poor dumb Americans assume.

    Most Americans' ancestors were only relatively recently "civilized," that is they were mostly rural and pastoral. They faced different selection pressures from those groups who have been living in cities for thousands of years. Groups that have evolved in cities throughout various multiracial civilizations for thousands of years have evolved quite a different "skill set" like politics, human husbandry, social manipulation, etc.

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  • Crypto-Jews discreetly running things, organizing revolutions, manipulating societies?!?!

    That's absolute crazy talk, Steve!!

    Are you some kind of conspiracy nut?!

    You really need to see a psychiatrist, Steve. There's a diagnosis for this kind of thing. It's right under the Racism diagnosis.

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  • For years, I've been hearing the name "Sibel Edmonds," without being able to make sense out of her story, in part because the U.S. government has been blocking its publication under the State Secrets Act. Now, the London Times has run a long article, "For sale: West's deadly nuclear secrets," about the West Asian-born American...
  • You raise the question of Sibel Edmon's trustworthyness yet you provide no reasons to support your claims. Your lack of reasoning, failure to support your own claim and lack of evidence all support the claim that you are a dishonest partisan with an agenda

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  • Israelis detest theory and are very practical (as a lot of the anti-somethingism posts here seem to indicate) and do have missiles and warheads of their own.

    So again, why would the Israelis need info on US nuclear secrets?

    Because the USA thus far has been able to build more physically compact fission and fusion weapons than the very practical, theory-despising Israelis can manufacture.

    There’s more to big bad bomb making than than pure atomic theory.

    I also ask rhetorically, if the Israelis already know everything, why do they require American non-nuclear weapons and electronic systems?

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  • Too bad your conspiracy-minded cranks can’t deal with ugly reality and have to substitute nutty conspiracy theories instead. Just like Ron Paul.

    What a charmingly blundering way of phrasing it! We can’t deal with reality, so we hide in delusions about Jewish conspiracies?

    LOL! I can only talk about this subject on the net and to my closest family and friends because it’s so radioactive…and that makes me a coward.

    Uhm, okay, so I’m a wuss (like everyone else) and don’t go bringing up my political thoughts about Jewry in public and in person, but that just makes me like everyone else – how does my net commentary on same make me an intellectual coward, exactly? This is one of the last labels I’d expect. :)

    Race-realists is all about the ugly reality, baby!

    If I wanted to hide from “ugly” reality I’d choose UFOs; nobody gets banned or flamed or investigated or harrassed or beaten up over saucers. Okay so I’m overdoing it, but still…

    P.S., I wish to God I was/am wrong, because my kinfolk’s struggle back to sanity would be significantly easier.

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  • Steve, I’m glad you withheld that comment because I didn’t put a fine enough point on it:

    In fact, the 1965 immigration act is proof of organized Jewry’s treachery, not that of Jews in general. That’s part of the game: big Jews feed the little Jews to the sharks every so often, and the little Jews suck it up happily (or enact one-way gene flow by defecting).

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  • The pujkkou comment was mine, FF likes to switch focus when reloading blogger pages.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    [Ron Paul's] newsletters from the 1990′s have been unearthed. They portray him as an ugly, nasty, vicious racist.

    Oh man, this story is a real eye-opener and reveals these guys as the f***s that they are. I mean the Neocon bunch.

    Just look what they found in one of his old newsletters: “Order was only restored in L.A. when it came time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks three days after rioting began.” Can you believe it? Oh, the humanity! The blatant racism of it all. What blatant libel.

    And this guy calls himself a “libertarian?” Isn’t a true Libertarian like those wonderfully “urbane” (? …meaning “sissy?” …”effeminate?”) open-borders fanatics from “Reason?”

    If we allow that guy to gain any more influence, and through him American patriots, we know where it all will end: anti-Jewism. As we all know (or should know by now), the first moral precept of universal ethics is “love thy Jew; associate with him, or else…”

    Great revelation about Paul from TNR, the hotbed of liberty-minded, pro-Western men of measured and conservative thinking. This should kill his candidacy, if the 257 smear-attempts until now hasn’t.

    JD

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  • P.S., Ebil, how about owning up to your people’s leading role in the Communist atrocities? A word or two about the scale of said atrocities wouldn’t hurt, either.

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  • Svigor — I guess you and Steve will have some problems now with Ron Paul.

    My problem with Paul is his libertarianism, not the silly storm in a teacup over what someone else published in his newsletter.

    It is the height of anti-semitism to believe a person is a traitor because he/she is Jewish.

    It’s the height of dishonesty to lean on the straw man crutch. Why are Jews so often so fond (in my experience) of this technique? Seems like the closer one gets to their sensitive Jewish parts, the more frequent this use becomes; I’m not REALLY me you see – I’m some cutout caricature of an anti-Semite who believes what Ebil says I believe.

    Zionists argue that no Jew can be accepted as a citizen because people always accuse them of treason because of their faith. A position proven correct when ordinary Europeans, Frenchmen, Dutchmen, Poles, and so on went out of their way to send Jews who posed no threat at all to them to the gas chambers.

    What can I tell you? We goyim (cattle, unclean, beasts, what have you) are thoroughly evil. Maybe Jews should stop following us around. Jews are bright, right? Then why is the worst thing you can say to a Jew, “I’d like to have a place for me and mine – as your people have for you and yours – where you aren’t welcome”? Seems like intelligent, rational people would conclude “probably a great idea, Svi.”

    (P.S., I’m a nice guy so I don’t refer to Jews who point to “you gentiles” over the holocaust, but never thank “us gentiles” for hauling their asses out of the fire, as ungrateful bastards; never mind the whole enfranchising them into western civilization and tearing up the bill thing)

    I mean, there’s Israel, the ethnic home of the Jewish people, the sort of home organized Jewry seems willing to do anything to deny to Europeans…but most Jews, particularly the bright ones, seem intent on avoiding the place.

    What gives?

    The holocaust could not have happened without well … people like Svigor motivated by racial hatred against old men, women, and children.

    What would you guys do without the holocaust card? Spent a lot of that in Palestine, mate.

    As far as the Rosenberg case goes, there are plenty of white, WASP traitors as well.

    I love this one. How should I phrase the logic? “Jews can’t be guilty as long as Euros can”? “Two wrongs make a right”?

    The FBI agent Hanson. “The Falcon and the Snowman” duo The family that sold secrets to the Soviets (from the Navy). The CIA agent who sold secrets. The real effective atomic spies were Klaus Fuchs and some Army Sergeant who both escaped any significant punishment.

    When you’re done with all your finger-pointing, maybe you can explain its relevance? Draw some conclusions for me.

    Steve — you have a real problem with anti-Semites and bigots on this blog. At a time when Ehud Olmert is playing “Let’s make a deal — any deal at all” again your lunatic conspiracy nutcases believe Israel fabricated 9/11 (or like Ron Paul, the 1993 WTC bombing). Israelis are deeply divided, middle class suburban people who just want the violence to go away and will make almost any deal it seems to stop it. Heck their own lawyers boast about how they imposed legal restrictions over victory in the Hezbollah War.

    I love it when Jews do this – on one hand anyone who paints Jews with a broad brush is an anti-Semite, but on the other, they paint those they dislike (definition of an anti-Semite) with a much broader brush.

    As for Israelis, let’s face it: the Israelis are the Pioneers and the Palestinians are the Indians, except the deed is only 50 years old and the tides of history radically different. Can you say, “doomed”? Believe me, I’d rather that wasn’t the truth, but it is. Hey, look on the bright side, the only way they’ve gotten away with their colonialism this long is because they’re Jews; imagine Europeans trying to do something similar today, that’s good for a laugh!

    Too bad your conspiracy-minded cranks can’t deal with ugly reality and have to substitute nutty conspiracy theories instead. Just like Ron Paul.

    Hmm, getting a little catty, are we? Brush up on your Freud and psychoanalyze me, or something. It might relax you.

    Now please excuse me, I have to go laugh uproariously at the implication that Jews are morally superior to Europeans.

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  • It’s ironic that Evil Neocon references the Dreyfuss Affair, because here Mrs. Edmonds seems like Dreyfuss. The government hasn’t gone after anyone she’s accused, after all.

    On a tangent, I think it’s arguable whether Valerie Plame is much better looking than Sibel (with a different Sibel, nose and all, well ahead of them both).

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  • steve deleted my post last year describing a black market for compromising information on american politicians. steve doesn’t like to indulge conspiracy talk. but this conspiracy definitely exists.

    the american telephone architecture – meaning the hard-coded computer infrastructure – was compromised by the mossad in the 1990′s and possibly even earlier. the 2001 foxnews expose on the subject proves this beyond any doubt. my question to mr & mrs america is what the hell do think happens to the resulting wellspring of information? the answer is that it’s a goldmine for blackmailers.

    the logical inference is that if you control a nation’s phone lines then yes by god you can control a nation’s politicians. you can develop a detailed file on their contacts. sexual proclivities and weaknesses such as gambling and drug use can be determined. after you have compromised a subject there are two overlapping profit paths: you can ‘run’ the subject yourself and gain advantage. and you can also ‘sell’ the subject on a black market. that is obvious steve. but you wouldn’t let me posit this simple logical inference in the past on this blog. because i’m not a name writer like raimondo? so be it.

    it is obvious to readers now. a lot of our politicians and bureacrats are for sale on the black market. they appear to behave as puppets because gee whiz they are puppets. this is a normal state of affairs in any third world country.

    definitely read the raimondo link in the posting for the dirty details. what a wake up call.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “That creepy thing with the previous governor of New Jersey?”

    Occam’s razor suggests that our execrable former governor’s attempt to give his gay Israeli lover a state government sinecure was of a piece with the governor’s general corruption and not part of some Israeli espionage plot. Surely the Israelis would know that a non-citizen could never get the secret security clearance necessary to be a state homeland security liaison. If they were trying to infiltrate that position, and if we American Jews are as prone to treachery as you imagine, wouldn’t it have made more sense to use a Jew who was an American citizen as well as an NJ resident? There are hundreds of thousands of Jews born and bred in NJ — why use an Israeli citizen whose application would be DOA?

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  • Israelis detest theory and are very practical (as a lot of the anti-somethingism posts here seem to indicate) and do have missiles and warheads of their own.

    So again, why would the Israelis need info on US nuclear secrets?

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  • Evil Neocon, you are the ugly reality. The fact that damn near every posting of yours fails in part or in whole when given the least examination is not proof of anti-semitism. Note that your bilge is given a thrashing not because of Juden Haas rather because you engage in a pattern of lies and misrepresentation. Did it ever occur to you that most people detest being lied to and indeed find condescension compounded with lies yet more loathsome. You want to know why some people distrust Jews? Look in the mirror.

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  • Whiskey [AKA "Evil Neocon"] says:

    Svigor — I guess you and Steve will have some problems now with Ron Paul.

    His newsletters from the 1990′s have been unearthed. They portray him as an ugly, nasty, vicious racist.

    You can see the story here .

    It is the height of anti-semitism to believe a person is a traitor because he/she is Jewish. Zionists argue that no Jew can be accepted as a citizen because people always accuse them of treason because of their faith. A position proven correct when ordinary Europeans, Frenchmen, Dutchmen, Poles, and so on went out of their way to send Jews who posed no threat at all to them to the gas chambers.

    The holocaust could not have happened without well … people like Svigor motivated by racial hatred against old men, women, and children.

    As far as the Rosenberg case goes, there are plenty of white, WASP traitors as well. The FBI agent Hanson. “The Falcon and the Snowman” duo The family that sold secrets to the Soviets (from the Navy). The CIA agent who sold secrets. The real effective atomic spies were Klaus Fuchs and some Army Sergeant who both escaped any significant punishment.

    Rosenbergs were unquestionably guilty, but not the main players and gave away few secrets (Fuchs and the Army guy gave away the plans and other material).

    Steve — you have a real problem with anti-Semites and bigots on this blog. At a time when Ehud Olmert is playing “Let’s make a deal — any deal at all” again your lunatic conspiracy nutcases believe Israel fabricated 9/11 (or like Ron Paul, the 1993 WTC bombing). Israelis are deeply divided, middle class suburban people who just want the violence to go away and will make almost any deal it seems to stop it. Heck their own lawyers boast about how they imposed legal restrictions over victory in the Hezbollah War.

    Too bad your conspiracy-minded cranks can’t deal with ugly reality and have to substitute nutty conspiracy theories instead. Just like Ron Paul.

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  • Yes, I believe Sibel Edmonds is trustworthy. I think this could be just the tip of the iceberg. Justin Raimondo mention Mahmoud Ahmed, the head of Pakistan’s ISI at the time, who may have wired $100,000 to supposed lead hijacker Mohammed Atta. He could have also mentioned that Mahmoud Ahmed came to Washington on September 4, 2001 and was here during the 9/11 attacks. He met with many top intelligence officials(Goss, Graham, Tenet) including Marc Grossman, the man named by Sibel Edmonds.

    Sibel Edmonds stated regarding criminal network she stumbled upon,

    “You can start from the AIPAC angle. You can start from the [Valerie] Plame case. You can start from my case. They all end up going to the same place, and they revolve around the same nucleus of people. There may be a lot of them, but it is one group. And they are very dangerous for all of us.”

    Justin Raimondo stated that this could be the story of the decade. He is wrong. It would be the story of the century. 9/11 is the greatest unsolved murder mystery in world history.

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  • One question raised by this is how do you productively discuss such allegations and avoid crime-think? The short answer as we all know is that it’s simply impossible. The level of trust and implicit good faith that existed in the not so distant past are conspicuous by their absence. Get used to having your chain jerked in more and more brazen ways and expect people to say less and less about it. Perhaps arch-conspiritologist Hoffman is right?

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  • Does it really make a person an anti-semite and a fellow traveller of David Duke if they speak out

    More to the point, is someone truly a schmuck on wheels for caring either way (i.e., falling for this cheap carney act of character assassination) when assessing fact?

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  • A great opening by Ebil Neeyocon, with the moral-social posturing over “beyond the Pale” Raimondo (Raimondo doesn’t carry Israeli water, and so is an ebil heretic), ad hominem attack.

    Really Steve, looking at this piece I understand the Dreyfuss Affair more. Thanks for that.

    Has it helped you understand the Rosenbergs better too? How about the Lavon Affair? The AIPAC case? That creepy thing with the previous governor of New Jersey?

    Maybe someone should publish a book about Jewish treachery. There could be a chapter about the Dreyfuss Affair, titled, “The Exception That Proves The Rule.”

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  • As a side-note on conspiracy theories – it is to any real conspirators’ advantage to have everyone automatically discount “conspiracy theories”.

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  • Why would Israel need nuclear weapons information when it has had nukes for decades?

    Because Israel hasn’t had for decades the physically compact nuclear warheads that the USA has.

    The Israelis would be very interested in the designs of these warheads. Not the abstract nuclear theory which of course brilliant Israeli scientists already know, but the applied, practical design of the non-fission detonators and the mechanical packaging of American compactly-sized nu-clear warheads.

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  • Is this why Sandy Berger needed to destroy those documents? [Marc Grossman & Nuclear Espionage]
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1950281/posts

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  • Why would Israel deal with the Pakis? If Boise is nuked, all it would take is finding a floater downstream wearing an “I luv Allah” t-shirt to shove this country into World War 3 (or 4 or 5…can’t remember which one the neocons have reached by now) against all of Israel’s traditional enemies in the region, the head of which has always been alleged to be Iran.

    Now imagine Edmond’s testimony combined with the mute tale told by the floating “towelhead”: perfidious Turkey gave Osama/Ahmadinejad/them Muslims the nuke that killed my grandma – bomb Tehran!

    You see, Edmonds story can be used two ways by neocons:

    1. PRIOR TO THE NEXT 9-11 (i.e. currently): She is a bald-faced liar, ridiculously and evilly trying to implicate Israel in nuclear espionage against the US. Anti-semitic witch! It’s Bejing or, better, Tehran that we should bomb.

    2. AFTER THE NEXT 9-11: She is a Cassandra, hounded for her attempt to use her incontrovertibly true evidence of Turkey’s giving nukes to al-Queda to warn the complacent West – now let’s bomb Tehran.

    Think the average Bush or Huckabee voter wouldn’t bite? Think again.

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  • Anonymous said…Our government prefers WASPs like Valerie Plame.

    You fail to understand why a woman who looks like Valerie Plame was recruited by CIA. She was picked because she was a beautiful young women hired to recruit overseas based US business men, academics etc to provide information to the CIA.

    They aren’t going to hire some ugly sephardic Jewish guy to do that.

    As for WASPS in the government, they are a problem to the degree that they are psychotically philo-semitic. Like Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld surrounding themselves with a nest of Israeli activist American Jews otherwise mislabeled neo-conservatives.

    Israeli activist Jews have infiltrated and subverted much of the US power struture and institutions for the perceived advantage of the Jewish people and the Israeli state.

    Everybody with a brain knows that. Just because knee jerk Jewish bigots can’t handle that truth doesn’t make it any less true.

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  • Steve — citing Justin Raimondo is like citing Stormfront or David Duke. Why not just come out as an anti-Semite?

    Does it really make a person an anti-semite and a fellow traveller of David Duke if they speak out against the fact that the United States is blindly supportive of Israel in part due to the power of the Israeli lobby groups in this country, or they speak out against the war in Iraq?

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  • One thing to consider in the attitudes Americans have toward conspiracy theories, and this goes along with the mentality of one side being good and the other evil (your either with us or against us), is that the outcome of conspiracies are too nuanced and complex to have been pre-planned by a group. How, for example, could a group of people in our government or in Israel pre-plan something as chaotic as 9/11 and expect the exact result that they are looking for with no screwups and nobody leaking information? Or how could somebody pre-plan something as complex as the manipulation of the economy to, say, take wealth away from the middle class allowing the rich to get richer? I don’t know if I believe that the examples that I gave are conspiracies that I believe in but they could, along with any other conspiracies, be plausible if you get away from thinking that they are pre-planned. It could be that like minded people trying to achieve the same long term goals or even trying to achieve different goals but happen to have to employ similar tactics, become aware of each other, use each other, sometimes team up with each other in their pursuit. In other cases, for example, it could be that somebody moves a half ton of heroin into the US and makes a ton of money and somebody else extorts some of money to fund the terrorist group he heads but the second in command in this organization is a mole from a spy agency who at the same time is a double agent with a girlfriend in Brussels, and he takes a cut of the money before the terrorist head get the loot. This double agent then gives a lot of expensive gifts to his girlfriend along with secrets about the terror group. This woman also has another boyfriend who happens to be a Mossad agent planted to see what is up with this woman and the terrorist. The Mossad in turn, figures that they could use the girlfriend to get to the double agent (who the Mossad does not know is a double agent) because they need to use the terror group to destabilize a neighboring country’s government. The double agent tells his government about the Mossad plans. They then figure that they want Israel’s neighbor’s government destabilized as well and they are sure that the terror group will carry this out since that is their stated goal. The terror group seriously lacks funds, the reason for the original extortion, so the double agent’s government has to find a way to help them. They figure that the best way to achieve this is to front the original drug runner money, using say the Russian mafia as intermediaries, to make another shipment thus allowing money to be extorted and thus funding the terror. Other people get wind that there is something up and go along with this because it is in their interest to see this country destabilized. They may want this country’s oil, they may be members of exiled parties who are also lobbyists in the double agent’s home country, or their may be people who will profit personally in all of this. The double agent’s government, at the same time, also helps revolutionary groups in Israel’s neighbor and helps the exiled party lobbyists. The lobbyists make this profitable to government figures in the double agent’s country as well as in countries allied to this country, thus getting more politicians on board against the government of Israel’s neighbor. The double agent’s government leaks controlled information to the press who’s main audience are people who only like hearing stories where their country represents good and anybody who does not go along with the goals of our government are evil. This pisses off Israel’s neighbor who expels the ambassador and the embassy staff of the double agent’s country. The double agent’s government keeps leaking info to the press and puts its military on alert. The terrorists strike and Israel’s neighbor’s strikes back with a terrorist attack of its own and the everything is destabilized. This is probably how most of these kinds of this get going.

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  • Perhaps the most charitable interpretation of Sibel Edmonds’story is that she discovered a legitimate, honest CIA operation in which our State Department officials were co-opting and controlling the bad guys by appearing to be the allies of the bad guys. I would think this is SOP for the CIA. Anyway, we should hope that this is true, because the alternative — that the neocons are selling nukes to Moslims — is too horrible to contemplate.

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  • cabrolet, there were certainly Caucasoid peoples in what’s now western China, but there’s no evidence they invented gunpowder! Likewise Kennwick Man is strong evidence some of the first tribes to enter the Americas were Caucasoid or proto-Caucasoid, but no evidence of any particular Caucasoid technological genius.

    That said, I agree it’s unlikely China will eclipse the USA in blue-sky innovation in the foreseeable future – Japan has not, after all. But China can remain poorer and more backward than the USA, with say a GDP per capita half the US level, yet with four times the population she can still become the world’s dominant economic and military power.

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  • “Maybe we need to “make” our own scientists, loyal to the flag, like we used to.” When was that exactly?

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  • Does anyone really think all those Chinese science students, Indian engineers, Paki programmers would not be willing to do something -personally- to aid their former nations, filled with people who look just like themselves, if it involved copying a technology from this, the nation of Britney Spears?

    I think it has been asked on this blog before: what percentage of Chinese technological expertise has been stolen outright from the USA? And, if that percentage is indeed quite large, what inference could be made of China’s ability to “lead the world” in technology fields in the future?

    My gut feeling is that China has never led the world in scientific discovery. And before readers start whining about how the Chinese invented gunpowder and paper and most everything else etc. consider that ancient Caucasian mummies are being discovered in China at an politically embarrassing rate (as is the case, and has been the case, in other far-flung geographic locations). Yes, I am saying that the technology transfer in ancient times was mostly West-to-East and not East-to-West in later post-ancient times…as we are led to believe in U.S. Department of Education-sanctioned history classes.

    There are various links around the internet available to research this subject. Try google. Here’s a start at Wiki:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies

    Note that ancient Caucasian mummies have been discovered around the world and many have been kept under wraps for “political” reasons. Incredible but true. But maybe not so incredible when one considers who, in particular, has explored the moon.

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  • One of the CIA sources confirmed that the Turks had acquired nuclear secrets from the United States and shared the information with Pakistan and Israel

    Turkey, Pakistan & Israel?! These people are our closest friends. What’s all the fuss about?

    But seriously, Steve, thanks for posting this contraband. While reading I am watching C-SPAN in the background where U.S. presidential candidate Bill Richardson is touring smalltown New Hampshire and speaking TONS of Spanish.

    BTW… filthy and perverted C-SPAN’s coverage tonight of the last day of primary campaigning in New Hampshire was:

    OBAMA – stump speech w/ big crowd
    CLINTON – stump speech w/ big crowd
    HUCKABEE – meet & greet the little people reality TV episode
    EDWARDS – powwow with neighborhood gathering
    RICHARDSON – meet & greet the little people reality TV episode

    …in that order. Four democrats, one Republican. C-SPAN has entirely succumbed to O’Sullivan’s Law of Organizations. But I knew this when coverage of 2006′s illegal immigrant marches and 2007′s immigration legislative battles mostly went on the air at 1-3AM.

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  • Whiskey [AKA "Evil Neocon"] says:

    Steve — citing Justin Raimondo is like citing Stormfront or David Duke. Why not just come out as an anti-Semite? I thought you had more brains than that. Really, disgraceful.

    AQ Khan DID get a lot of help. From CHINA. Remember, Pakistan’s traditional ally since the 1960′s? Enemy of mutual enemy India? Ring any bells?

    Turkey and Pakistan are … RIVALS for influence in the Stans and have been since the USSR collapsed. I find it hard to pass the laugh test that Turkey, angling for power and influence in Central Asia, would help a rival gain nuclear secrets that would push it past Turkey.

    It makes as much sense as Israel helping a nation filled with AQ supporters get nukes.

    It is useful to look at how Israel got it’s nukes. Israel achieved nuclear power in the mid 1960′s with the assistance of France under De Gaulle (as a way of poking a finger in the eye of pro-Arab Kennedy and Johnson). Generally smaller nations that break-out into nuclear status do so with the very obvious help of larger patron nations:

    China assisted Pakistan and North Korea.
    France assisted Israel, particularly in material and design.
    Russia, China, Germany, Sweden, and France have assisted Iran.
    Russia and France built Saddam’s Osirak reactor.
    France and Germany provided some technical assistance to South Africa — though most of their material and scientists were home grown.

    No “conspiracy” just the usual power politics out of the limelight. Turkey is a country mired in poverty, with a thinly spread military that understands power comes from Westernization not memorizing the Koran (the opposite of their people). Turkey has historically cooperated out of the limelight with Israel on matters of mutual benefit — mostly Arab governments that threaten both nations like Saddam’s Iraq or Assad’s Syria. Due to the recent Islamization that has now ceased.

    Really Steve, looking at this piece I understand the Dreyfuss Affair more. Thanks for that.

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  • “Maybe we need to “make” our own scientists, loyal to the flag, like we used to.”

    That’s been our approach to spies, translators, and military intelligence troops. After 9/11, we turned down thousands of Arabic-speaking volunteers, including Sephardic Jewish immigrants from Arab countries. Our government prefers WASPs like Valerie Plame.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    One of the externalities of such a “diverse” populace with one million newcomers a year is that a good portion of this nation’s population are *patriotic* to *other* nations before the United States. Does anyone really think all those Chinese science students, Indian engineers, Paki programmers would not be willing to do something -personally- to aid their former nations, filled with people who look just like themselves, if it involved copying a technology from this, the nation of Britney Spears?

    Out of many one huh………….

    Maybe we need to “make” our own scientists, loyal to the flag, like we used to.

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  • 1/ The problem with Raimondo’s theories is that most of the neocons he mentioned were out of government during the Clinton administration (remember how they were all associated with the PNAC antiwar.com loves talking about?)

    2/ Why would Israel need nuclear weapons information when it has had nukes for decades?

    3/ The big news here was when it came to espionage and national security, the Clintons were asleep on the job (or she was asleep and he was wide awake.)

    4/ One of Obama’s chief foreign policy advisers is Richard Clarke, one of those asleep at the wheel types in the Clinton Administration.

    5/ The Times is a Murdoch paper and Murdoch publishes the neocon Weekly Standard. If all this really lead to neocons why would the Times publish it?

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I really have a lot of respect for you Sailer, but this is piece is really a disgrace.

    “Is Sibel Edmonds trustworthy?”–what kind of a headline and commentary is this? You reference the antiwar.com piece by Raimondo but apparently failed (?) to view the included YouTube video included in which Congressman Grassley and Edmond’s immediate supervisor (apparently) at the FBI said she was highly credible. Her (former?) supervisor at the FBI said that, in essence, he feared for her life.

    You have admitted in the past that by nature you are non-confrontational, but under the cirmstances, I am sorry to say it would have been better if you had never written your blog on this topic.

    It is too important to be handled in the way you have here.

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  • “They were helped, she says, by the high-ranking State Department official who provided some of their moles – mainly PhD students – with security clearance to work in sensitive nuclear research facilities.”

    Any guesses who that might be?

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  • American politicians and federal officials are still trying to get straight in their heads that confusing Shia vs. Sunni thingie, but it turns out that the Middle East has a whole bunch of living religions that aren't exactly part of Islam, Christianity, or Judaism.Sure, we've all heard of the Samaritans in Israel, the mysterious and...
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    sfg wrote: You could so say so many silly things about a religion…

    Mr. Connolly: He discovered that children have things called marlocks in their bodies. [a graphic of kid bodies appears, and bright dots dapple them and move around] And when an adult has sex with a child, the marlocks implode, feeding the adult receptive cavity with energy that causes immortality, so saith the ruler of Bethos. [a blue monster alien with a bright red crown. Next shot, Phinehas in the gondola of a hot-air balloon with several boys] Phinehas traveled the world, loving many, many children, and he lived for eternity. Until he was hit by a train in 1892. [a shot of Phinehas' body on the train's bumper]
    Kyle: …Do you realize how retarded that sounds?
    Mr. Connolly: Is it any more retarded than the idea of God sending his son to die for our sins? Is it any more retarded than Buddha sitting beneath a tree for twenty years?
    Stan: Yeah, it’s way, way more retarded.

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  • I’d say that’s a small price to pay to preserve NYC or LA.

    For those of you ruralites who would like to see NYC (or LA, or Cambridge, MA) go up in a mushroom cloud, think about it: how much blood is the US going to have to spill to prove we’re not weak if they nuke New York?

    Oh, we nook ‘em back after they clean out NYC, Cambridge, etc., and sotto voice and privately, we thank our enemies for helping to improve America.

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  • I’d say that’s a small price to pay to preserve NYC or LA.

    For those of you ruralites who would like to see NYC (or LA, or Cambridge, MA) go up in a mushroom cloud, think about it: how much blood is the US going to have to spill to prove we’re not weak if they nuke New York?

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  • Come on. You could so say so many silly things about a religion involving a guy who comes back from the dead and turns his body into bread and wine for the benefit of his worshippers… I’m sure the other commenters can come up with nasty things to say about Judaism, and Islam…where do we start?

    Granted their religion hasn’t spread across the globe and they haven’t accomplished as much as Christians, but reading it into the religion itself is probably a bit much. History plays a role, too. What if Constantine hadn’t accepted Christ?

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Steve — without any involvement by the US, Iran is persecuting the Zoroastrians and the Bahai (who ironically are tolerated only in Israel in the ME). Or Egypt killing/persecuting the Copts. Or Pakistan killing and persecuting Christians. Or Saudi refusing to allow any Jews enter the magic Kingdom at all, and persecuting their labor force much of which is Filipino Christians. No American involvement needed for chaos.

    If anything, “stability” where hostile, transnational forces (Hezbollah, Hamas, AQ, JAM, Abu Sayyaf, etc) hide and plot with impunity are bad for America.

    As long as the US remains relatively open and not a Hermit Kingdom like NK, we have interests in stopping plots before planes slam into buildings. If nothing else, getting rid of Saddam lets us manage only one headache: a nuclear Iran, rather than two: nuclear Saddam plus nuclear Iran.

    Nuclear tech is more than sixty years old. ICBMS that can reach America are more than forty. Terrorist cut-outs are deniable proxies, particularly as the following nations in reaction to Iran’s nuclear program (with no come-back) have announced their own nuclear program: Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE, Oman, and Kuwait. With all those nukes floating around in 5-10 years it will be hard to know who is to blame when say LA and NYC go up in a mushroom cloud.

    America has limited control over events. What leverage we do have is made by soldiers on the ground who form alliances (of convenience) with local forces. Welcome to the real world.

    We are unlikely to see another Iraq invasion, but very likely IMHO to see more SF doing liason-training-logistics because they act as human early warning systems for various plots. With 12 declared-goal nuclear nations plus Iran and Pakistan and North Korea, I’d say that’s a small price to pay to preserve NYC or LA. All those nukes means it’s almost impossible to pin the blame on any one country in the future.

    [All these weird, small religions hang on in marginal areas and are generally detested/oppressed/killed by the Muslim majority who vastly outnumber them. Yeah the US had the Heaven's Gate eunuchs. Those guys were no more representative of the US than the Yazidis of Iraq.]

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  • Are we totally sure we knew what we were getting into over there?

    Neo-Conservatives are sure. We have always been sure. It’s only the dull Paleos who don’t get it.

    The fundamental difficulty in American foreign policy today is Liberal and Paleo interference and their inability to recognize the nature of progress and, as a result, who exactly are our true friends in the world.

    Our true friends are the nations that have fought with us shoulder to shoulder in the past and can be depended upon in the future. Our true friends are the nations that share are core values of anti-racism, tolerance, multiculturalism, universal human rights, minority rights and democracy.

    Our true friends are Israel, Turkey, Mexico and, yes, China.

    Very soon the government of Iraq will join that list. Also, France is coming into the fold thanks to its visionary new leader Sarkozy. His vision on Iran regime change and the issue of Turkey joining the EU, is of course, our vision.

    Within five years we will have created a tolerant minority coalition government in Iran similar to Iraq. A Middle Eastern Union integrated with the EU is not that far off.

    The multi-racial, multi-religious re-engineering of Europe is a reality. Our reality. Good relations with old paradigm allies Britain, Canada and Australia, will be maintained contingent upon those societies rejecting monoculturalism, homogeneity and intolerance.

    The final obstacles are Russia and Serbia. Progress in Poland, Ukraine and, by the way, the American South has been substantial. The North American Union is just over the horizon. Reactionary nationalist states are withering away.

    On geopolitical issues, Steve demonstrates embarrassing xenophobia. In the Middle East, just as everywhere else, the diverse minority groups are to be embraced and empowered. The Paleo obsession with the majority’s well-being which comes at the expense of minorities is a non-starter (no matter how large the majority may be). That type of thinking has no place at the top levels of government.

    Integration with the Middle East, not subjugation, as with the entire globe, is the future. We are creating that reality.

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  • Sorry, I misread that. They do mention they reject Jesus. Need to get some sleep.

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  • I also posted this over at GNXP in response to your question about the Mandaean-Gnostic connection:

    Perhaps [they are Gnostics], though some theorize the Mandaeans – who also go by the name Nasoreans (Nazarenes) – might actually be the descendants of the Essenes or the Qumran community (or both if the hypothesis that the two are one and the same are correct) who fled ancient Judea for southern Iraq. They are rather secretive but are said to consider St. John the Baptist the founder of their sect and describe Jesus as a former leader who betrayed their cause.

    Wikipedia’s description of them as “revering Jesus” might be going too far. Though it’s like Razib said:

    Many of these groups are secretive about their beliefs and consultation of 10 different sources will produce 10 different answers as to their theologies, customs and provenance.

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  • The situation Sailer describes must be true. Its to crazy to make all that up. E-gad.

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  • Planetary archons…

    Kind of reminds me of Tolkien’s Ainur.

    As for the World of Warcraft comparison, it might make sense, because I often feel that my life is being controlled by a 12 year-old noob. I mean, where’s my epic armor set? Where’s my flying mount? Why does my profession seem to require useless, repetitive tasks that make insufficient gold?

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  • One of your smarter posts once recommended that someone pay Victor Davis Hanson to write, but place a limit on how many words per year he writes.

    This post brings that to mind. You have used this point at least twice before. (At least this time you found a couple different religions to bring up.)

    Duh. Of course Iraq has a lot of religions, and, as is typical of religions, they seem strange to those not familiar with them.

    The U.S. has a lot of weird religions, too. In Appalachia, they have people that hold snakes and dance around.

    Are we sure we really want to be involved with West Virginia?

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Despite the 1000+yr history of anti-Western, tribalism, first cousin marriage, numerous archaic religions, authoritative social structures at all levels (home, tribe, religion, gov’t), female oppression the neocons know one thing. Deep down all these people really desire is for America to liberate their inner pro-western, individualistic, secular, democratic, feminist child within.

    Unzipping that escape hatch will transform these Arabs from Israel-haters into their biggest fans. Anyone voicing any concerns or objections over the logic here must be an cryptic anti-semite motivated by the soft bigotry of low expectations against Arabs and should be mischaracterized, ridiculed, vilified and ignored.

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