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    I did not expect that my previous post would prove so contentious and would lead to such a wide range of comments. Thank you for those, and for the detailed points made, and the references to published work. I must admit that I sometimes experienced an Alice in Wonderland effect: the discussion has veered away...
  • Hi,

    Thanks for sharing a very interesting article about Eat Less. This is very useful information for online blog review readers. Keep it up such a nice posting like this.

    From,
    Retailmass.

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  • At a time when some people may be wishing to set a New Year’s resolution, after some festive eating and drinking, it is apposite to look at a recent very striking headline: 'I beat type 2 diabetes with 200-calorie drinks' It describes what is said to be a very promising treatment for the treatment of...
  • Glad to hear your good news. Calories count, even if most people can’t count them.

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  • I wanted to say thank you. I decided to make it very easy by eating “healthy” frozen meals and one calorie counted fruit and vegetable smoothie. I eat almost exactly 1800 calories, I burn 400 calories on an elliptical and an estimated 400-500 from nursing my baby. It’s that simple. I’m down 15 pounds. I just needed to know exactly how many calories I eat, and actually do it, even if I eat frozen food.

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  • I did not expect that my previous post would prove so contentious and would lead to such a wide range of comments. Thank you for those, and for the detailed points made, and the references to published work. I must admit that I sometimes experienced an Alice in Wonderland effect: the discussion has veered away...
  • Regarding diets, it’s important to eat a balanced diet. A focus on calories isn’t everything.

    If a person eats healthily, he’ll feel a great deal better. It’s also good to be thin, of course.

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  • List of advantages to obesity:
    1) when subject to major trauma, the obese body has thick padding to absorb the impact, and all the organs are packed in thick padding.

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  • @Anon
    The best diet advice I ever met was in Lunch in Paris by Elizabeth Bard, chapter "Family Values". It's a fictionalized diary/romance/recipe book for female audience, so probably none of you guys know of it. In the said chapter, the 10 pounds too heavy American heroine learns the ways of her skinny French mother-in-law. The takeaways:
    - mother-in-law doesn't finish her portion at a restaurant;
    - doesn't take any snacks to the beach;
    - doesn't snack between meals at all (can eat yoghurt at night if she worked till 10 p.m.);
    - always has a bottle of water with her;
    - drinks water, tea, coffee, wine and sometimes beer, but never soda;
    - meals are eaten on strict schedule 4 times a day (intermittent fasting is not a thing);
    - French home meal portions are two times smaller than American, and eating takes twice longer.
    The dreaded carbs are there in bread and desserts, but don't seem to make a difference. In the end, the French diet is just order and discipline.

    One thing I read somewhere is that the diameter of dinner plates has increased over the last half century in the Western world, and this may be a factor in people eating too much.
    I did some serious fasting once and noticed that the odour of my sweat changed – it reminded me of the smell of hops. It may have been something to do with ketone bodies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketone_bodies

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  • Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Old fogey
    Women definitely become heavier as they enter menopause. I have read that without the estrogen from their ovaries, their body fat becomes the main source of estrogen. This extra fat - especially that around the hips - also cushions against fractures. It is foolish to think that our weight at age 25 should continue to be our weight throughout our life span.

    Women definitely become heavier as they enter menopause.

    There’s no inevitability here. Watch your income, adjust it down according to age and you may become a stick like Brigitte Macron. Traditional lifestyles did it to women without their conscious control. You were allotted less food in a peasant family when you stopped doing hard labor and having babies. These were the normal peasant types in Old Russia:
    Note that the beauty ideal of the time was a little chubby (except for the upper classes who wore corsets – but even they found round cheeks and big butts beautiful), so no way they conscioisly dieted.

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  • Personal, anecdotal

    Restricting intake is a losing game.
    Counting calories isn’t the way
    If f your body craves calories, it will get it…

    The only way to lose weight and keep it off is to reset the “set point” environmentally by vigorous daily exercise preferably pumping iron.

    The genetic set point exists, but vigorous iron pumping 5-6 times a week for 45 minutes to an hour will, I postulate, prevent your body from reasserting your genetic destiny.

    I know…it woorkd for me

    But I do love to lift weights and look forward to it…that may be a determining variable….

    Beat the genes with daily 45 min to 1 hour weight-lifting…you don’t really beat them, you just keep them from acting out each day

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  • At a time when some people may be wishing to set a New Year’s resolution, after some festive eating and drinking, it is apposite to look at a recent very striking headline: 'I beat type 2 diabetes with 200-calorie drinks' It describes what is said to be a very promising treatment for the treatment of...
  • thanks. had received both and will try to comment on them in due course.

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  • New generation of Mega GWAS!

    Here’s one for risk taking.
    Note how just as with the insomnia GWAS there is a connection between risk taking and educational attainment.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/02/08/261081

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  • I did not expect that my previous post would prove so contentious and would lead to such a wide range of comments. Thank you for those, and for the detailed points made, and the references to published work. I must admit that I sometimes experienced an Alice in Wonderland effect: the discussion has veered away...
  • @Philip Owen
    If you have Type One you are inevitably going to need insulin.

    If you have Type One you are inevitably going to need insulin.

    Yes apparently so, but less, one would expect, with the right diet, i.e., with low intake of sugar, particularly fructose, and refined carbohydrates.

    Type 2 diabetes, it seems, can usually be moderated if not eliminated altogether with the right diet.

    Since obesity is the best predictor of the Type 2 diabetes, a diet that prevents obesity should greatly reduce if not eliminate the risk of Type 2 diabetes. Such a diet will be low in sugars and refined carbohydrates.

    Whether the onset of Type 1 diabetes is diet/obesity related seems uncertain.

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  • @CanSpeccy

    Pretty much everyone consumes glucose in form of starch or sugar. It is in everything.
     
    The trouble with you Hu Mi Yu, is that you are either too lazy to look at any of the numerous linked references I've given you, or you don't understand what you read.

    Starch is hydrolysed to glucose, but because of that preliminary step, the rise in blood glucose on consumption of starch is slower and less extreme than following the consumption of an equivalent amount of glucose. Moreover, if you consume fiber containing starchy foods such as brown rice, assimilation of glucose will be even slower, and will therefore raise blood sugar even less.

    So if you want to minimize or eliminate their dependence on insulin injections should cut out glucose and every other sugar entirely, while increasing their intake of protein and fat at the expense of carbohydrates, especially refined carbohydrates.

    But you would rather snicker, apparently.

    If you have Type One you are inevitably going to need insulin.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    If you have Type One you are inevitably going to need insulin.
     
    Yes apparently so, but less, one would expect, with the right diet, i.e., with low intake of sugar, particularly fructose, and refined carbohydrates.

    Type 2 diabetes, it seems, can usually be moderated if not eliminated altogether with the right diet.

    Since obesity is the best predictor of the Type 2 diabetes, a diet that prevents obesity should greatly reduce if not eliminate the risk of Type 2 diabetes. Such a diet will be low in sugars and refined carbohydrates.

    Whether the onset of Type 1 diabetes is diet/obesity related seems uncertain.

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  • @dearieme
    "it was the internally produced LDL which had long since been accorded the blame.": also probably bollocks. Apart from the evidence - which supports the brusque dismissal "bollocks!" - you'd have to tell me how the cholesterol knows whether it was "produced internally".

    About 20% of cholestrol level can be varied by diet. The rest is made internally.

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  • The issue, I bet, with the CICO (sicko/psycho?) crowd is that they are all junk food addicts, so they refuse to contemplate quitting junk food, and make up ridiculous theories consistent with their suicidal eating behavior. It’s called cognitive dissonance reduction.

    It’s like when I smoked three packs of cigarettes a day: any thought that it might be killing me, and I’d light another cigarette and the worry go away.

    Same with the CICO’s. Anyone tell them they’re getting fat and unhealthy because of the junk they eat and they just reach for another donut and the worry go away.

    I quit smoking 40 years ago, not because I cared that smoking would likely kill me, but because I wanted to test a physiological theory. The theory proved incorrect, but by the time I realized that, I’d quit the habit (though I’ve never felt quite normal since).

    Maybe CICO’s could do the same. Think up some theory to test by going on a diet of reasonably healthy food eaten ad lib (plus a bit of exercise would be a good idea too).

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  • Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Hu Mi Yu

    My point is, we don’t eat glucose.
     
    Yes, we do. It is contained in fruits and vegetables as well as starches. When they add it to food, they call it dextrose.

    Other sugars are converted into glucose by the liver with varying degrees of efficiency.

    You seldom find obesity in poor Asia, East European and African countries in 1970s who need to do labour work like farming, with little to eat, very simple natural starchy diet, mostly 2meals a day. It still happen in these countries rural regions, but not cities that invaded by western junk food and chilled drinks culture.

    Artificial food, cold drinks, junk food are luxuries then, and diabetes are privilege for the rich. They usually live till 70′s still strong enough for farm work, with lean body and little illness. Starch and sweet things are their main energy source without problem.

    Diabetes are due to malfunctioning pancreas unable to regulate insulin, usually due to taking too much cold foods and drinks. Pancreas is the illness source, high sugar level diabetes is only the symptom. Western medical research and treatments focus on symptoms which can only be temporary suppress, no one ever heal by western medications.

    TCM focus on root cause to eliminate illness, and diabetes is not consider a illness in TCM but only a sign of pancreatic problem. Diabetes usually also cause high BP and cholesterol problem.

    Eat less(70% full), organic food (including brown rice/ sugar is good), simple diet (without refine food like white rice/sugar), work out more for daily perspiration. Nature work itself best when people go back to natural lifestyle.

    This is what Traditional Chinese Medicine physicians have observed, and able to treat 3 High symptoms, high sugar, high BP, high cholesterol, very effectively. That’s how i get my old mother decade of 3 highs illnesses treated within a month using TCM herbal treatment to revitalize pancreas(by using warm nature herbs) with diet control, to the great surprise of her geriatric.

    But once she return to her usual junk food and cold drinks lifestyle, the illnesses return. In facts, sugar intake has no effect to her diabetes during treatment in my observation, as healthy pancreas is able to regular itself well. Science is still far from truly understanding how nature work.

    Try this and see if its help.

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  • @dearieme
    My BMI = too fat.

    And by the way, my cholesterol = absolutely super, as it has been for thirty years even as I put on weight slowly over those years. It may have been equally absolutely super when I was a slim young man keen on sport, but I’ll never know. Maybe I should begin to wonder whether its superbity is actually a bit on the low side for a bloke my age. Is there an anti-statin available?

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  • @Sparkon
    Dearieme, you claim "much of the evidence" supports your arguments, but cite just one study, which itself is strongly contradicted by numerous scientific studies used by the CDC to arrive at its recommendations for weight, and warnings about obesity.

    Since you are posturing as an authority on weight and cholesterol here, doing a lot of argument by assertion, and calling everything that disagrees with your opinion "bullocks," perhaps you'd care to share with us your BMI.

    My BMI = too fat.

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    • Replies: @dearieme
    And by the way, my cholesterol = absolutely super, as it has been for thirty years even as I put on weight slowly over those years. It may have been equally absolutely super when I was a slim young man keen on sport, but I'll never know. Maybe I should begin to wonder whether its superbity is actually a bit on the low side for a bloke my age. Is there an anti-statin available?
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  • @dearieme
    "the statins that keep my HDL up and LDL down appear to be worth taking." Then you must be a symptomatic middle-aged male who is prepared to risk the side effects in hopes of being one of the few who will gain from statins.

    The guy is in his nineties, I doubt he’s giving much thought to the side effects. I tried to get my father off of statins, but he’s an ultra conformist and does what his doctors tell him. Even after having cataracts removed, he was sure the doctors were right. I’ll never understand the implicit trust people put into the health care industry.

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  • @CanSpeccy
    My comments last night seem to have been grammatically and syntactically deficient: the result of a glass too many of the Dom Perignon over dinner.

    Thus for the sake of greater clarity, here is the point I was trying to make:

    The CICO crowd (how do you pronounce CICO? Is it "Sicko," or "Psycho"*) are sadly mistaken if they confuse Warren Buffett's investment advice for nutritional advice.

    They should be better aware of Gore Vidal's assessment that the business of America is to make as much money as possible while doing as much harm as possible to as many people as possible.

    So if you wish to join the psychopathic financial crowd, invest in Pepsi, KraftHeinz, Macdonalds, etc., by all means, but for goodness sake don't eat what they produce, unless you don't mind becoming a sick diabetic lump of lard.

    ______

    * Could America's problem with regular mass shootings of innocents be something to do with high-fructose-syrup-induced CICOsis?

    I pronounce it like it rhymes with Geico, but I don’t know if that’s correct.

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  • Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Exercise definitely makes a difference. 10 years ago I lost 50 lbs (for real, not water weight) in 2 months from running 8 miles a day and riding the exercise bike 1 hour in the morning and 1 hour at night. And I reduced my intake to a strict vegan diet (Brussels sprouts, mixed vegetables, berries, etc.) of 1750 calories (minimum caloric restriction can’t fall below 10 times your body weight or your metabolic rate drops). I targeted my abs big time because it is the major fat-burning muscle (see The Abs Diet/workout philosophy). During that time I was getting serious body oder all day as my body became a fat-burning machine. I have seen guy lose even more weight (fat) and they did restrict their diets like I did. I saw a documentary of the some ultramarathoners who ran across the Sahara. I think they would run 50 miles a day for 100 days. They biggest runner had lost 40 lbs in a month. Again, fat, not water weight.

    Running The Sahara Movie Trailer: https://youtu.be/HidKMFClQUU via @YouTube

    Exercise definitely makes a difference.

    True. I always hovered at the lower end of normal, but once in a life became actually underweight with a BMI of 18. It was when my baby started to walk – so much more movement all of a sudden. Instead of leisurely walks with a stroller, you either run after your toddler (cardio) or pull and lift him out of forbidden places and dangerous situations (strength training). Contrary to what others say, I didn’t become more hungry and didn’t replace the lost calories with more eating. I had to consciously make myself eat more when it became uncomfortable and unattractive (not like skeletal anorexics yet, but my chest became bony and it didn’t look pretty in low cut dresses). Exercise matters, and it doesn’t have to be formal gym exercise.

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  • @dearieme
    "* Could America’s problem with regular mass shootings of innocents be something to do with high-fructose-syrup-induced CICOsis?" I suppose it could be. You got any evidence?

    What about people in other countries who decided to copy this vile American custom? Are they full of syrup too?

    Which syrup do you have in mind anyway?

    Could America’s problem with regular mass shootings of innocents be something to do with high-fructose-syrup-induced CICOsis?” I suppose it could be. You got any evidence?

    Er, well, Psychology Today considers it a plausible hypothesis.

    Makes you wonder, does Utu live on potato chips and candy bars?

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  • @dearieme
    Wiz, my point is that the conventional wisdom on cholesterol is probably bollocks: it's certainly contrary to much of the evidence.
    http://www.drdavidgrimes.com

    Dearieme, you claim “much of the evidence” supports your arguments, but cite just one study, which itself is strongly contradicted by numerous scientific studies used by the CDC to arrive at its recommendations for weight, and warnings about obesity.

    Since you are posturing as an authority on weight and cholesterol here, doing a lot of argument by assertion, and calling everything that disagrees with your opinion “bullocks,” perhaps you’d care to share with us your BMI.

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    • Replies: @dearieme
    My BMI = too fat.
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  • @dearieme
    "the statins that keep my HDL up and LDL down appear to be worth taking." Then you must be a symptomatic middle-aged male who is prepared to risk the side effects in hopes of being one of the few who will gain from statins.

    prepared to risk the side effects in hopes of being one of the few who will gain from statins.

    That is an important point which is worth expansion (I am guessing you already know these details, but for others who might be interested). The metric used to quantify this idea is the number needed to treat (NNT). This letter to the editor talks about statins in that context: https://www.aafp.org/afp/2010/1001/p741.html

    The review stated that the relative risk reduction for all-cause mortality was 12 percent, which sounds very good; however, I think it is important to look at the absolute risk reduction. All-cause mortality after a mean follow-up of 4.1 years was 5.1percent in the group treated with statins and 5.7 percent in the control group. That translates into an absolute risk reduction of 0.6 percent and a number needed to treat (NNT) of 167. This means that 167 patients would need to be treated with a statin for 4.1 years to prevent one death. Additionally, based on the study data, the NNT to prevent one major coronary event is 77, and the NNT to prevent one major cerebrovascular event is 250.

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  • @CanSpeccy
    My comments last night seem to have been grammatically and syntactically deficient: the result of a glass too many of the Dom Perignon over dinner.

    Thus for the sake of greater clarity, here is the point I was trying to make:

    The CICO crowd (how do you pronounce CICO? Is it "Sicko," or "Psycho"*) are sadly mistaken if they confuse Warren Buffett's investment advice for nutritional advice.

    They should be better aware of Gore Vidal's assessment that the business of America is to make as much money as possible while doing as much harm as possible to as many people as possible.

    So if you wish to join the psychopathic financial crowd, invest in Pepsi, KraftHeinz, Macdonalds, etc., by all means, but for goodness sake don't eat what they produce, unless you don't mind becoming a sick diabetic lump of lard.

    ______

    * Could America's problem with regular mass shootings of innocents be something to do with high-fructose-syrup-induced CICOsis?

    “* Could America’s problem with regular mass shootings of innocents be something to do with high-fructose-syrup-induced CICOsis?” I suppose it could be. You got any evidence?

    What about people in other countries who decided to copy this vile American custom? Are they full of syrup too?

    Which syrup do you have in mind anyway?

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    Could America’s problem with regular mass shootings of innocents be something to do with high-fructose-syrup-induced CICOsis?” I suppose it could be. You got any evidence?
     
    Er, well, Psychology Today considers it a plausible hypothesis.

    Makes you wonder, does Utu live on potato chips and candy bars?

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  • @Anonymous
    You and other commenters have ptompted a bit of Googling to update me. Happily I don't think I have too much to worry about that the personable Irish biochemist spoke about, such as ggt and ferritin, and the statins that keep my HDL up and LDL down appear to be worth taking.

    “the statins that keep my HDL up and LDL down appear to be worth taking.” Then you must be a symptomatic middle-aged male who is prepared to risk the side effects in hopes of being one of the few who will gain from statins.

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    • Replies: @res

    prepared to risk the side effects in hopes of being one of the few who will gain from statins.
     
    That is an important point which is worth expansion (I am guessing you already know these details, but for others who might be interested). The metric used to quantify this idea is the number needed to treat (NNT). This letter to the editor talks about statins in that context: https://www.aafp.org/afp/2010/1001/p741.html

    The review stated that the relative risk reduction for all-cause mortality was 12 percent, which sounds very good; however, I think it is important to look at the absolute risk reduction. All-cause mortality after a mean follow-up of 4.1 years was 5.1percent in the group treated with statins and 5.7 percent in the control group. That translates into an absolute risk reduction of 0.6 percent and a number needed to treat (NNT) of 167. This means that 167 patients would need to be treated with a statin for 4.1 years to prevent one death. Additionally, based on the study data, the NNT to prevent one major coronary event is 77, and the NNT to prevent one major cerebrovascular event is 250.
     
    , @JL
    The guy is in his nineties, I doubt he's giving much thought to the side effects. I tried to get my father off of statins, but he's an ultra conformist and does what his doctors tell him. Even after having cataracts removed, he was sure the doctors were right. I'll never understand the implicit trust people put into the health care industry.
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  • My comments last night seem to have been grammatically and syntactically deficient: the result of a glass too many of the Dom Perignon over dinner.

    Thus for the sake of greater clarity, here is the point I was trying to make:

    The CICO crowd (how do you pronounce CICO? Is it “Sicko,” or “Psycho”*) are sadly mistaken if they confuse Warren Buffett’s investment advice for nutritional advice.

    They should be better aware of Gore Vidal’s assessment that the business of America is to make as much money as possible while doing as much harm as possible to as many people as possible.

    So if you wish to join the psychopathic financial crowd, invest in Pepsi, KraftHeinz, Macdonalds, etc., by all means, but for goodness sake don’t eat what they produce, unless you don’t mind becoming a sick diabetic lump of lard.

    ______

    * Could America’s problem with regular mass shootings of innocents be something to do with high-fructose-syrup-induced CICOsis?

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    • Replies: @dearieme
    "* Could America’s problem with regular mass shootings of innocents be something to do with high-fructose-syrup-induced CICOsis?" I suppose it could be. You got any evidence?

    What about people in other countries who decided to copy this vile American custom? Are they full of syrup too?

    Which syrup do you have in mind anyway?
    , @ScarletNumber
    I pronounce it like it rhymes with Geico, but I don't know if that's correct.
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  • @Anonymous
    In a diet book I read by Neal Barnard, M.D., professor of medicine at The George Washington University School of Medicine, Washington, D.C. Barnard said to not let your caloric intake drop below 10x your ideal body weight or your metabolic rate will drop. But I wouldn’t trust the height/weight charts. I’m a muscular 6’ and when I was a 20-year old super-fit athlete I was 188 lbs. the charts say I should be around 155! I think at 172 lbs I’d have the body fat of a boxer. So, I always consider 175 lbs as my ideal body weight and when dieting make sure to never drop believe 1750 calories per day. The intermittent fasting (600 calories on 2 days per week separated by 2 or 3 days) might be a way around this.

    “should be around 155″?? Something has slipped. If you were aiming to have a BMI (just under) 25 the weight a dix footer would need to aim for would have béen about 184 pounds….

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @dearieme
    What is "excess"? The whole giddy invited pyramid of the Lipid Hypothesis is wrong; that is to say, the evidence is strongly against it. What's remarkable is how thin and shoddy (and possibly dishonest) the evidence for it ever was.

    You and other commenters have ptompted a bit of Googling to update me. Happily I don’t think I have too much to worry about that the personable Irish biochemist spoke about, such as ggt and ferritin, and the statins that keep my HDL up and LDL down appear to be worth taking.

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    • Replies: @dearieme
    "the statins that keep my HDL up and LDL down appear to be worth taking." Then you must be a symptomatic middle-aged male who is prepared to risk the side effects in hopes of being one of the few who will gain from statins.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    In a diet book I read by Neal Barnard, M.D., professor of medicine at The George Washington University School of Medicine, Washington, D.C. Barnard said to not let your caloric intake drop below 10x your ideal body weight or your metabolic rate will drop. But I wouldn’t trust the height/weight charts. I’m a muscular 6’ and when I was a 20-year old super-fit athlete I was 188 lbs. the charts say I should be around 155! I think at 172 lbs I’d have the body fat of a boxer. So, I always consider 175 lbs as my ideal body weight and when dieting make sure to never drop believe 1750 calories per day. The intermittent fasting (600 calories on 2 days per week separated by 2 or 3 days) might be a way around this.

    Aha! Thanks. (Desired) Pounds x 10 equals (sort of) desired calories!

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  • @Wizard of Oz
    I think the point was that no one normally reached excess from the external sources like egg yolk.

    What is “excess”? The whole giddy invited pyramid of the Lipid Hypothesis is wrong; that is to say, the evidence is strongly against it. What’s remarkable is how thin and shoddy (and possibly dishonest) the evidence for it ever was.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    You and other commenters have ptompted a bit of Googling to update me. Happily I don't think I have too much to worry about that the personable Irish biochemist spoke about, such as ggt and ferritin, and the statins that keep my HDL up and LDL down appear to be worth taking.
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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    What does "minimum calorific restriction [can't go below] 10 per cent of your body weight" mean? What is the formula when spelled out?

    In a diet book I read by Neal Barnard, M.D., professor of medicine at The George Washington University School of Medicine, Washington, D.C. Barnard said to not let your caloric intake drop below 10x your ideal body weight or your metabolic rate will drop. But I wouldn’t trust the height/weight charts. I’m a muscular 6’ and when I was a 20-year old super-fit athlete I was 188 lbs. the charts say I should be around 155! I think at 172 lbs I’d have the body fat of a boxer. So, I always consider 175 lbs as my ideal body weight and when dieting make sure to never drop believe 1750 calories per day. The intermittent fasting (600 calories on 2 days per week separated by 2 or 3 days) might be a way around this.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Aha! Thanks. (Desired) Pounds x 10 equals (sort of) desired calories!
    , @Anonymous
    "should be around 155"?? Something has slipped. If you were aiming to have a BMI (just under) 25 the weight a dix footer would need to aim for would have béen about 184 pounds....
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  • @dearieme
    "it was the internally produced LDL which had long since been accorded the blame.": also probably bollocks. Apart from the evidence - which supports the brusque dismissal "bollocks!" - you'd have to tell me how the cholesterol knows whether it was "produced internally".

    I think the point was that no one normally reached excess from the external sources like egg yolk.

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    • Replies: @dearieme
    What is "excess"? The whole giddy invited pyramid of the Lipid Hypothesis is wrong; that is to say, the evidence is strongly against it. What's remarkable is how thin and shoddy (and possibly dishonest) the evidence for it ever was.
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  • @utu
    CanSpeccy, I hope you are not at risk of aneurysm. Take it easy. I'll let you be for a while.

    CanSpeccy, I hope you are not at risk of aneurysm.

    Your obtuseness being due, perhaps, to the fact you’ve already suffered an aneurysm.

    However, it seems more likely that you are a no more than a mechanical troll gone wrong.

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  • @Hu Mi Yu

    Hu Mi Yu, you must be even dumber than Utu. You say you’re diabetic, yet you advocate diabetics consume glucose, which is idiotic.
     
    Pretty much everyone consumes glucose in form of starch or sugar. It is in everything. You can treat high blood glucose levels by taking insulin, or you can do as I did, and as Dr. Lustig suggests and stop eating fructose. Most sugar is a mixture of fructose and glucose. I suggest avoiding fructose: not eating more glucose.

    This site is infested with nuts and trolls with whom it is pointless to debate. Some of the rudest and dumbest are in name or by their own contention of Chinese origin or affiliation, which seems weird, as the Chinese people that I know personally are both well mannered and intelligent.
     
    Now we know why you are here! (snicker)

    Pretty much everyone consumes glucose in form of starch or sugar. It is in everything.

    The trouble with you Hu Mi Yu, is that you are either too lazy to look at any of the numerous linked references I’ve given you, or you don’t understand what you read.

    Starch is hydrolysed to glucose, but because of that preliminary step, the rise in blood glucose on consumption of starch is slower and less extreme than following the consumption of an equivalent amount of glucose. Moreover, if you consume fiber containing starchy foods such as brown rice, assimilation of glucose will be even slower, and will therefore raise blood sugar even less.

    So if you want to minimize or eliminate their dependence on insulin injections should cut out glucose and every other sugar entirely, while increasing their intake of protein and fat at the expense of carbohydrates, especially refined carbohydrates.

    But you would rather snicker, apparently.

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    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    If you have Type One you are inevitably going to need insulin.
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  • @notanon

    You are so confused. You do not distinguish between calories ingested and calories absorbed.
     
    Nope - that's what people who promote CICO ignore. The counter argument is focused precisely on that distinction.

    Nope – that’s what people who promote CICO ignore.

    Might as well save your breath. Unless your argument can be reduced to a tautology, utu will never understand it.

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  • @Wizard of Oz
    I would have just quoted the levels on the assumption that typical readers, e.g. all practising everyday hypochondriacs paying close attention on UR (presumed as obsessive as the Holocaust deniers, WTC7 sub branch members of the 9/11 squad etc.) would know what they signified but I couldn't be bothered to look for the latest pieces of paper in my medical records and couldn't remember whether my HDL level was really a little above the LDL or the other way round. Also the translation from Australian mmol/l to US mg/dl might be dodgy. My recollection is that typical total cholesterol is 5.5 mmol/l and that 6.5 starts to get a bit worrying. Mine is now 4.2 or less. As HDL (the "good cholesterol") removes fats which might otherwise be forming plaque in the arteries (whereas Low Density Lipoprotein lays down plaque that blocks arteries) apparently one should have, for safety, a ratio of HDL to total cholesterol of less than 1 to 3.5. My ratio is right down near 1 to 2. Resuming the eating of lots of cheese since changing statin (previously Lipex twice a day; now Crestor once a day) hasn't changed the good figures.

    So..... i wonder whether I could be as lucky as I seem on my existing diet and drug régime. And I invite knowledgeable comment.

    I note below that French cheese eaters are credited with having their arteries decalcified and retaining a lot of fat soluble vitamins. So far so good. And my blood sugar levels aren't dangerous. What is more I am going over to the Stevia based sweeteners which apparently don't produce odd anomalous sugar like effects wrt insulin that some sweeteners do. (Anything known about that curiosity?).

    I am going over to the Stevia based sweeteners

    Just give up sweeteners altogether, avoid refined carbohydrates and you’ll likely do a lot better. After a month with no sugar or other sweeteners and you’ll hardly miss them. After six months, and anything with more than a trace of sugar will taste disgusting.

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  • @Anonymous
    I was certainly one of those who spent some attention in the first decades of adult life to avoiding saturated fat. Polyunsaturated margarine was a bit of a deterrent to eating lots of toast or bread. I don't know if I ever consumed trsns fats. The fact thst my father had heart attacks st 41 snd 42 (and lived to 59 when he had another) was an incentive to follow medical fashion.

    I am disappointed in the linked material because it seems to be directed, without much precision, to the sort of people who might, at least 25 years late, be deceived by supermarket labels promising no or low cholesterol when it was the internally produced LDL which had long since been accorded the blame.

    “it was the internally produced LDL which had long since been accorded the blame.”: also probably bollocks. Apart from the evidence – which supports the brusque dismissal “bollocks!” – you’d have to tell me how the cholesterol knows whether it was “produced internally”.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I think the point was that no one normally reached excess from the external sources like egg yolk.
    , @Philip Owen
    About 20% of cholestrol level can be varied by diet. The rest is made internally.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    What does "minimum calorific restriction [can't go below] 10 per cent of your body weight" mean? What is the formula when spelled out?

    What is the formula when spelled out?

    Most likely there is no formula. Taken from think air by some charlatan selling his diet method.

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  • @Anonymous
    I was certainly one of those who spent some attention in the first decades of adult life to avoiding saturated fat. Polyunsaturated margarine was a bit of a deterrent to eating lots of toast or bread. I don't know if I ever consumed trsns fats. The fact thst my father had heart attacks st 41 snd 42 (and lived to 59 when he had another) was an incentive to follow medical fashion.

    I am disappointed in the linked material because it seems to be directed, without much precision, to the sort of people who might, at least 25 years late, be deceived by supermarket labels promising no or low cholesterol when it was the internally produced LDL which had long since been accorded the blame.

    Polyunsaturated margarine was a bit of a deterrent to eating lots of toast or bread. I don’t know if I ever consumed trsns fats.

    If you ate margarine (or many processed foods) before ~2007 you were probably consuming trans fats. I am curious if there will turn out to be health issues with the newer interesterification approach for creating saturated fat from vegetable oil.

    For those in the US, the conversion factor between US and UK/SI measurements for cholesterol is 0.02586 (i.e. multiply the UK measurement by ~40).

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  • Let’s keep it simple. In this growing obesity eprdemic , there is one group of Americans who are not fat on average-vegans. Just like people from India tend to be skinnier than dairy farmers from Wisconsin. We all know this.. The more meat and dairy, the more obesity. Once I stopped kidding myself, losing weight and keeping it off was easy. The fat you eat is the fat you wear.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @dearieme
    Wiz, my point is that the conventional wisdom on cholesterol is probably bollocks: it's certainly contrary to much of the evidence.
    http://www.drdavidgrimes.com

    I was certainly one of those who spent some attention in the first decades of adult life to avoiding saturated fat. Polyunsaturated margarine was a bit of a deterrent to eating lots of toast or bread. I don’t know if I ever consumed trsns fats. The fact thst my father had heart attacks st 41 snd 42 (and lived to 59 when he had another) was an incentive to follow medical fashion.

    I am disappointed in the linked material because it seems to be directed, without much precision, to the sort of people who might, at least 25 years late, be deceived by supermarket labels promising no or low cholesterol when it was the internally produced LDL which had long since been accorded the blame.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res

    Polyunsaturated margarine was a bit of a deterrent to eating lots of toast or bread. I don’t know if I ever consumed trsns fats.
     
    If you ate margarine (or many processed foods) before ~2007 you were probably consuming trans fats. I am curious if there will turn out to be health issues with the newer interesterification approach for creating saturated fat from vegetable oil.

    For those in the US, the conversion factor between US and UK/SI measurements for cholesterol is 0.02586 (i.e. multiply the UK measurement by ~40).
    , @dearieme
    "it was the internally produced LDL which had long since been accorded the blame.": also probably bollocks. Apart from the evidence - which supports the brusque dismissal "bollocks!" - you'd have to tell me how the cholesterol knows whether it was "produced internally".
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    I would have just quoted the levels on the assumption that typical readers, e.g. all practising everyday hypochondriacs paying close attention on UR (presumed as obsessive as the Holocaust deniers, WTC7 sub branch members of the 9/11 squad etc.) would know what they signified but I couldn't be bothered to look for the latest pieces of paper in my medical records and couldn't remember whether my HDL level was really a little above the LDL or the other way round. Also the translation from Australian mmol/l to US mg/dl might be dodgy. My recollection is that typical total cholesterol is 5.5 mmol/l and that 6.5 starts to get a bit worrying. Mine is now 4.2 or less. As HDL (the "good cholesterol") removes fats which might otherwise be forming plaque in the arteries (whereas Low Density Lipoprotein lays down plaque that blocks arteries) apparently one should have, for safety, a ratio of HDL to total cholesterol of less than 1 to 3.5. My ratio is right down near 1 to 2. Resuming the eating of lots of cheese since changing statin (previously Lipex twice a day; now Crestor once a day) hasn't changed the good figures.

    So..... i wonder whether I could be as lucky as I seem on my existing diet and drug régime. And I invite knowledgeable comment.

    I note below that French cheese eaters are credited with having their arteries decalcified and retaining a lot of fat soluble vitamins. So far so good. And my blood sugar levels aren't dangerous. What is more I am going over to the Stevia based sweeteners which apparently don't produce odd anomalous sugar like effects wrt insulin that some sweeteners do. (Anything known about that curiosity?).

    Wiz, my point is that the conventional wisdom on cholesterol is probably bollocks: it’s certainly contrary to much of the evidence.

    http://www.drdavidgrimes.com

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I was certainly one of those who spent some attention in the first decades of adult life to avoiding saturated fat. Polyunsaturated margarine was a bit of a deterrent to eating lots of toast or bread. I don't know if I ever consumed trsns fats. The fact thst my father had heart attacks st 41 snd 42 (and lived to 59 when he had another) was an incentive to follow medical fashion.

    I am disappointed in the linked material because it seems to be directed, without much precision, to the sort of people who might, at least 25 years late, be deceived by supermarket labels promising no or low cholesterol when it was the internally produced LDL which had long since been accorded the blame.
    , @Sparkon
    Dearieme, you claim "much of the evidence" supports your arguments, but cite just one study, which itself is strongly contradicted by numerous scientific studies used by the CDC to arrive at its recommendations for weight, and warnings about obesity.

    Since you are posturing as an authority on weight and cholesterol here, doing a lot of argument by assertion, and calling everything that disagrees with your opinion "bullocks," perhaps you'd care to share with us your BMI.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Monty Ahwazi
    One of the basic principle lesson in the field of Chemical Engineering is as the following:
    IN - OUT = Accumulation
    This simple equation applies to every aspect of human life. An example would be the calories we take in by what we eat minus calories we expend during our active hours equals to accumulation of calories or fat in our bodies! Our target must be to have near zero or even a little less than zero calories accumulated in our body daily or weekly or monthly whichever is convenient for us as a life style! This equation works for me and I’m happy that so far has kept me healthy! Try it because it’s free and it may work for you too!

    How many calories do you burn daily?

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  • @PiltdownMan
    There's food everywhere, restaurants and take-outs everywhere.

    Here's an NIH article on obesogenic environments.


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015813/

    http://urbantoronto.ca/sites/default/files/imagecache/display-slideshow/images/articles/2014/04/9780/urbantoronto-9780-34527.jpg

    Lol, this is downtown Toronto in the picture. Almost nobody’s fat there. It’s populated by SWPL/hipsters and ambitious careerists who know looking fit is an asset. And you walk or bike everywhere because there’s no space for a car.

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  • @Hu Mi Yu

    Do you know what the prevalence of the ability (breaking down 5 carbon sugar polymers) is?
     
    Fructose is a 6-carbon sugar that forms a 5-carbon ring in the blood (one carbon is outside the ring). Glucose is a 6-carbon sugar that forms a 6-carbon ring.

    Fructose polymers (fructans) are not supposed to be digestible (they are counted as fiber). However some people are sensitive to them, apparently including me. This is an area that is still poorly understood. I have had no luck finding even basic information like typical blood fructose levels after ingestion.

    For many years there was a widespread misconception that fructose and glucose were interchangeable due to the fact that the Tollen test taught in basic organic chemistry reports both. Fructose and glucose exist in equilibrium in the high pH of the Tollen test, but this is not true at physiological pH. This news has not completely filtered down to those on the front lines of medicine and nutrition.

    Another thing I see is xylose (5 carbon sugar, like fructose) being added to wheat flour (six).

     

    Xylose is a 5 carbon sugar derived from wood that is not fully understood. Web searches turn up conflicting information. I certainly would not want it in my food.

    Thanks for the correction—I should have checked, given my lacking biochemistry background (5 versus 6 carbon in fructose).

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  • @CanSpeccy

    Fake news.
     
    Hu Mi Yu, you must be even dumber than Utu. You say you're diabetic, yet you advocate diabetics consume glucose, which is idiotic.

    This site is infested with nuts and trolls with whom it is pointless to debate. Some of the rudest and dumbest are in name or by their own contention of Chinese origin or affiliation, which seems weird, as the Chinese people that I know personally are both well mannered and intelligent.

    Hu Mi Yu, you must be even dumber than Utu. You say you’re diabetic, yet you advocate diabetics consume glucose, which is idiotic.

    Pretty much everyone consumes glucose in form of starch or sugar. It is in everything. You can treat high blood glucose levels by taking insulin, or you can do as I did, and as Dr. Lustig suggests and stop eating fructose. Most sugar is a mixture of fructose and glucose. I suggest avoiding fructose: not eating more glucose.

    This site is infested with nuts and trolls with whom it is pointless to debate. Some of the rudest and dumbest are in name or by their own contention of Chinese origin or affiliation, which seems weird, as the Chinese people that I know personally are both well mannered and intelligent.

    Now we know why you are here! (snicker)

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    Pretty much everyone consumes glucose in form of starch or sugar. It is in everything.
     
    The trouble with you Hu Mi Yu, is that you are either too lazy to look at any of the numerous linked references I've given you, or you don't understand what you read.

    Starch is hydrolysed to glucose, but because of that preliminary step, the rise in blood glucose on consumption of starch is slower and less extreme than following the consumption of an equivalent amount of glucose. Moreover, if you consume fiber containing starchy foods such as brown rice, assimilation of glucose will be even slower, and will therefore raise blood sugar even less.

    So if you want to minimize or eliminate their dependence on insulin injections should cut out glucose and every other sugar entirely, while increasing their intake of protein and fat at the expense of carbohydrates, especially refined carbohydrates.

    But you would rather snicker, apparently.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    Exercise definitely makes a difference. 10 years ago I lost 50 lbs (for real, not water weight) in 2 months from running 8 miles a day and riding the exercise bike 1 hour in the morning and 1 hour at night. And I reduced my intake to a strict vegan diet (Brussels sprouts, mixed vegetables, berries, etc.) of 1750 calories (minimum caloric restriction can’t fall below 10 times your body weight or your metabolic rate drops). I targeted my abs big time because it is the major fat-burning muscle (see The Abs Diet/workout philosophy). During that time I was getting serious body oder all day as my body became a fat-burning machine. I have seen guy lose even more weight (fat) and they did restrict their diets like I did. I saw a documentary of the some ultramarathoners who ran across the Sahara. I think they would run 50 miles a day for 100 days. They biggest runner had lost 40 lbs in a month. Again, fat, not water weight.

    Running The Sahara Movie Trailer: https://youtu.be/HidKMFClQUU via @YouTube

    What does “minimum calorific restriction [can't go below] 10 per cent of your body weight” mean? What is the formula when spelled out?

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu

    What is the formula when spelled out?
     
    Most likely there is no formula. Taken from think air by some charlatan selling his diet method.
    , @Anonymous
    In a diet book I read by Neal Barnard, M.D., professor of medicine at The George Washington University School of Medicine, Washington, D.C. Barnard said to not let your caloric intake drop below 10x your ideal body weight or your metabolic rate will drop. But I wouldn’t trust the height/weight charts. I’m a muscular 6’ and when I was a 20-year old super-fit athlete I was 188 lbs. the charts say I should be around 155! I think at 172 lbs I’d have the body fat of a boxer. So, I always consider 175 lbs as my ideal body weight and when dieting make sure to never drop believe 1750 calories per day. The intermittent fasting (600 calories on 2 days per week separated by 2 or 3 days) might be a way around this.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @dearieme
    "my cholesterol levels have been oustandingly good": what's good about them? How do you know what a "good" level should be? Do you plan to pursue this "good" level for the rest of your life?

    OMG! Read this as if I had managed to send it as “Anonymous”.
    See my reply as Wizard of Oz. No mystery about my having used “Anonymous”. It was because I used a new phone and my particulars were blank and I chose to comment as Anonymous for no particular reason. Wizard of Oz, who boasts a 100 year old aunt will no longer hide his hypochondria.

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  • @dearieme
    "my cholesterol levels have been oustandingly good": what's good about them? How do you know what a "good" level should be? Do you plan to pursue this "good" level for the rest of your life?

    I would have just quoted the levels on the assumption that typical readers, e.g. all practising everyday hypochondriacs paying close attention on UR (presumed as obsessive as the Holocaust deniers, WTC7 sub branch members of the 9/11 squad etc.) would know what they signified but I couldn’t be bothered to look for the latest pieces of paper in my medical records and couldn’t remember whether my HDL level was really a little above the LDL or the other way round. Also the translation from Australian mmol/l to US mg/dl might be dodgy. My recollection is that typical total cholesterol is 5.5 mmol/l and that 6.5 starts to get a bit worrying. Mine is now 4.2 or less. As HDL (the “good cholesterol”) removes fats which might otherwise be forming plaque in the arteries (whereas Low Density Lipoprotein lays down plaque that blocks arteries) apparently one should have, for safety, a ratio of HDL to total cholesterol of less than 1 to 3.5. My ratio is right down near 1 to 2. Resuming the eating of lots of cheese since changing statin (previously Lipex twice a day; now Crestor once a day) hasn’t changed the good figures.

    So….. i wonder whether I could be as lucky as I seem on my existing diet and drug régime. And I invite knowledgeable comment.

    I note below that French cheese eaters are credited with having their arteries decalcified and retaining a lot of fat soluble vitamins. So far so good. And my blood sugar levels aren’t dangerous. What is more I am going over to the Stevia based sweeteners which apparently don’t produce odd anomalous sugar like effects wrt insulin that some sweeteners do. (Anything known about that curiosity?).

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    Wiz, my point is that the conventional wisdom on cholesterol is probably bollocks: it's certainly contrary to much of the evidence.
    http://www.drdavidgrimes.com
    , @CanSpeccy

    I am going over to the Stevia based sweeteners
     
    Just give up sweeteners altogether, avoid refined carbohydrates and you'll likely do a lot better. After a month with no sugar or other sweeteners and you'll hardly miss them. After six months, and anything with more than a trace of sugar will taste disgusting.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @JL

    a candy called pixie sticks
     
    I remember reading on a paleo site once that Sweet Tarts are made exclusively with glucose.

    I remember reading on a paleo site once that Sweet Tarts are made exclusively with glucose.

    Thanks. Will check out the ingredients next time I am in the supermarket.

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  • @Johan Meyer
    Do you know what the prevalence of the ability (breaking down 5 carbon sugar polymers) is?

    Another thing I see is xylose (5 carbon sugar, like fructose) being added to wheat flour (six).

    Do you know what the prevalence of the ability (breaking down 5 carbon sugar polymers) is?

    Fructose is a 6-carbon sugar that forms a 5-carbon ring in the blood (one carbon is outside the ring). Glucose is a 6-carbon sugar that forms a 6-carbon ring.

    Fructose polymers (fructans) are not supposed to be digestible (they are counted as fiber). However some people are sensitive to them, apparently including me. This is an area that is still poorly understood. I have had no luck finding even basic information like typical blood fructose levels after ingestion.

    For many years there was a widespread misconception that fructose and glucose were interchangeable due to the fact that the Tollen test taught in basic organic chemistry reports both. Fructose and glucose exist in equilibrium in the high pH of the Tollen test, but this is not true at physiological pH. This news has not completely filtered down to those on the front lines of medicine and nutrition.

    Another thing I see is xylose (5 carbon sugar, like fructose) being added to wheat flour (six).

    Xylose is a 5 carbon sugar derived from wood that is not fully understood. Web searches turn up conflicting information. I certainly would not want it in my food.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    Thanks for the correction---I should have checked, given my lacking biochemistry background (5 versus 6 carbon in fructose).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anon

    Now, actually Adolf Hitler was undergoing this therapy. Not for the weigh loss but for some other digestive system ailments. Though he did not seem to be too overweight despite that he loved sweets (kuchen) while on his low protein vegetarian diet.
     
    Hitler was high on amphetamines most of the time, and their side effect is suppressed appetite.

    Hitler was high on amphetamines

    had syphilis, only one testicle and raped his niece. What else have you learned?

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  • Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @utu
    We have established that CICO is valid and it works. The ones who object to it are misinformed (by pseudoscientific charlatans) cranks. The cranks will point to cases that different diets of the same caloric content lead to different outcomes or that the same diet has different effects on different people. While people may have different metabolisms that may change with age the biggest unknown in the CICO equation is CI, i.e., the energy absorbed. Nobody really measures this energy in studies. Only energy of ingested food is estimated. To estimate the absorbed energy the fecal matter must be analyzed. This is rather unpleasant so it usually is skipped. What determines the amount of the fecal matter and what is in it? Chiefly the flora and fauna that live in out guts. Certainly fauna can be very helpful in reducing CI. Getting a tapeworm will most certainly guarantee a weigh loss.

    Iowa woman tries 'tapeworm diet', prompts doctor warning
    https://www.today.com/health/iowa-woman-tries-tapeworm-diet-prompts-doctor-warning-6C10935746
     
    Everybody has flora but not of the same type. It has been demonstrated that depending on the flora people may have very different outcomes.

    https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/do-gut-bacteria-inhibit-weight-loss
    Then scientists took bacteria from the guts of human identical twins, one of whom was obese and one of whom was lean, and transferred those bacteria into the guts of lean, germ-free mice. Bacteria from the obese twin made the mice become fat, but bacteria from the lean twin did not.
     
    There are more studies being conducted to transplant the bacteria from fecal matter.

    Eating poop pills could make you thin. Seriously.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2016/01/14/eating-poop-pills-could-make-you-thin-seriously/?utm_term=.738425a18b2e
     
    This should not be considered new or alarming. Already in 1930s German physicians were making pills form fecal matter to transplant "good" bacterias. They had a peculiar interest in stools so toilets were constructed in such a way that a stool could be visually and organoleptically (minus taste) evaluated. Anglo-Saxons somehow preferred to be in denial of this part of human experience which costed them losing to Germans in this area of medical science.

    Now, actually Adolf Hitler was undergoing this therapy. Not for the weigh loss but for some other digestive system ailments. Though he did not seem to be too overweight despite that he loved sweets (kuchen) while on his low protein vegetarian diet.

    Now, actually Adolf Hitler was undergoing this therapy. Not for the weigh loss but for some other digestive system ailments. Though he did not seem to be too overweight despite that he loved sweets (kuchen) while on his low protein vegetarian diet.

    Hitler was high on amphetamines most of the time, and their side effect is suppressed appetite.

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    • Replies: @utu

    Hitler was high on amphetamines
     
    had syphilis, only one testicle and raped his niece. What else have you learned?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    Many people, especially post menopausal women, eat very little and are still overweight. My female cousin eats like a horse and is thin, as is my husband. Yes, there are people who are eating too much and can lose weight by reducing calorie consumption. Obesity is an epidemic in the developed world and there are causes that are just not related to over consumption.

    This has been addressed on Fatlogic Reddit many times. Skinny people who “eat much” don’t eat so much as it seems. Just an example:

    “My partner even said to me the other day that he eats whatever he wants and doesn’t get fat and people hate him for it.

    Even he doesn’t realise how little he eats compared to the sort of fat person he thinks he’ll become once he’s older and his “metabolism changes”. In his head he’s eating unhealthy food, and he’s thin and fit so it must be magic/good genes/fast metabolism/luck. He forgets that he’s fairy active and he doesn’t snack between meals or drink soft drink so even if his meals are unhealthy (and in reality, its probably only 1/3rd of his meals that are junk) he’s not eating as much as he thinks he is.

    As a morbidly obese person, I know what my diet looks like, and I know his intake is easily 2/3rds the size of mine. So it makes sense that as a taller, more active, penis owning person, he’s half my weight.

    But If I was using fat logic, I’d be taking what my partner says at face value and cursing him for his good genes and fast metabolism. Rather than actually thinking about it and saying “no, you’re expected for your actual calorie intake”.”

    https://www.reddit.com/r/fatlogic/comments/494dv4/im_jealous_of_skinny_women_who_can_eat_anything/d0p4ck4/

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    There will be individual variations caused by particular foods, digestive upsets, ill-health and other extraneous noise. Some people have a genetic leptin deficiency which denies them feedback about satiation. They eat too much because they still feel hungry. There will always be individual cases, even within the general observation that if you are too fat you should eat less. How much do these variations account for in the general population? Probably not much, in my estimation.
     
    The much bigger variation is in metabolic rates. Some people can eat a lot more than others without getting fat. But, yeah: reducing calories seems the obvious way to go to lose weight.

    One thing I picked up from the comment thread in the post is the 5:2 fast diet. I had thought up something similar on my a year or two ago, but seeing a physician endorse it encouraged me to try it. So that's what I'm doing now.

    Two days per week, I'm limiting myself to 600 calories. To maximize protein intake while doing that (since I lift weights) I'm limiting myself to 2 or 3 shakes made with whey protein powder and black iced coffee (2 shakes with 1.5 scoops of protein powder each or 3 with 1 scoop), plus a few almonds to have something to crunch on. The first time doing that, while going to the gym as normal, I had some painful cramps, presumably from my sodium levels dropping too low. So I added a 0 calorie sports drink this week.

    We'll see how this goes.

    Exercise definitely makes a difference. 10 years ago I lost 50 lbs (for real, not water weight) in 2 months from running 8 miles a day and riding the exercise bike 1 hour in the morning and 1 hour at night. And I reduced my intake to a strict vegan diet (Brussels sprouts, mixed vegetables, berries, etc.) of 1750 calories (minimum caloric restriction can’t fall below 10 times your body weight or your metabolic rate drops). I targeted my abs big time because it is the major fat-burning muscle (see The Abs Diet/workout philosophy). During that time I was getting serious body oder all day as my body became a fat-burning machine. I have seen guy lose even more weight (fat) and they did restrict their diets like I did. I saw a documentary of the some ultramarathoners who ran across the Sahara. I think they would run 50 miles a day for 100 days. They biggest runner had lost 40 lbs in a month. Again, fat, not water weight.

    Running The Sahara Movie Trailer:

    via @YouTube

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    What does "minimum calorific restriction [can't go below] 10 per cent of your body weight" mean? What is the formula when spelled out?
    , @Anon

    Exercise definitely makes a difference.
     
    True. I always hovered at the lower end of normal, but once in a life became actually underweight with a BMI of 18. It was when my baby started to walk - so much more movement all of a sudden. Instead of leisurely walks with a stroller, you either run after your toddler (cardio) or pull and lift him out of forbidden places and dangerous situations (strength training). Contrary to what others say, I didn't become more hungry and didn't replace the lost calories with more eating. I had to consciously make myself eat more when it became uncomfortable and unattractive (not like skeletal anorexics yet, but my chest became bony and it didn't look pretty in low cut dresses). Exercise matters, and it doesn't have to be formal gym exercise.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Hans
    Interesting debate.

    I am a mechanical engineer and has worked with development of new products and procedures in mechanical and electronic engineering for many years.
    I am not a into medical science.
    In the following there are parts which I consider facts and parts I have deducted - the last ones will be marked (guess).

    Some years ago I had a heart attack and afterwards I joined a recovery group and was told it would be a good idea to lose weight, what I knew.

    They also gave good advice about food etc., which my wife knew and did not keep as a secret. I was sure, our food was healthy and nutritious.

    I thought about it and tried to find out how to do reduce weight in an efficient way. There are masses of advice available – scientific and otherwise, cures, procedures and medicaments.
    Nearly all has two claims:
    1. That other cures/methods do not work or do not work in the longer run.
    2. That their own cure/method do work and does it quickly.

    My old mother in law once told me that you should eat spinach when it is healthy - she had experienced it had shifted from healthy to unhealthy several times.
    The reading showed the same. The nutritional science is developing, its not yet a set of rules and dependencies which are finally proved. (Guess)

    Some interesting things:
    (Facts): You will loose weight if you eat less. The concentration camps in Germany showed this. Also, the body can survive a long time on extremely low intake of food.

    During the war, most members of the Danish police force were rounded up and send to a German concentration camp. It was not an extermination camp, but the food was scarce and nearly stopped at the end. Most did survive and was busied back to Denmark after the war as near skeletons. They were taken good care of and after a year they had regained their former weight - they could all fit their old clothes. The thins were thin and the fats were fat again.

    Anoter Fact: Many can keep their weight over extended times - 10 years or more.

    If we consider why people can keep their weight instead of why they loose/gain weight some interesting comes up.
    The body works with stuff in - work - stuff out. It is multiple very complex processes and some are most likely not even known.
    The input can change and how the body work may change in but the clothes will still fit.
    Appetite are supposed to regulate the intake so it fits the use of energy but this cannot be the only factor, as it is often is opposed by temptation which is a non-body factor.

    (Guess): In my opinion, there must be another form of regulation. It may be that the body can regulate the efficiency of the process so the food will be used more or less efficient.

    (Guess): This means that the body has a preferred weight and that it will try to maintain this weight if you try to manipulate it by changing the food intake. You may succeed in a shorter time but will fail over long time unless the body accept the new weight as 'normal'. When changing you weight you must reset the regulator to the wanted level.

    (Guess): The results from the Danish police and people I have talked to which have had a successful slimming shows that a slimming or weight gain may be stable if the end results correspond to a former 'normal' weight.
    So, if you slim to a former 'normal' weight and maintain this for a short time, the body will try to maintain this weight. If you do not reach this weight (properly best a kilo or two below so the body can regulate up to a 'normal'), then the body will start to try to reach the 'normal' weight it had before the slimming.
    If you try to fix weight at a non-'normal' weight you may need work hard to keep the weight down and establish a new 'normal'.

    After all my reading I found that I would not be able to count calories etc. all the time but that the following should work:

    A) Avoid sugar inclusive sweeteners

    B) Take the small potato instead of the big and the small steak instead of the big.
    (For served meals: Decide how much to eat before you start)

    C) No second serve.

    It worked very well for me, I lost more than 10 kilo and can maintain a a weight I had 10 years ago.

    A) Avoid sugar inclusive sweeteners

    engineering approach to diet

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @utu
    You are so confused. You do not distinguish between calories ingested and calories absorbed. Only calories absorbed can be either burned or converted to body mass. I was trying to point out that the biggest problem in empirical studies is that we (they) do not know what fraction of calories ingested is absorbed. They routinely estimate it with Atwater factors but these are very crude estimates. That's why results are all over when diets are compared which creates confusion and plenty of room for charlatans to make special claims about their diets padded with pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo.

    And as I tried to point out the role of digestive system flora is crucial but often overlooked.

    You are so confused. You do not distinguish between calories ingested and calories absorbed.

    Nope – that’s what people who promote CICO ignore. The counter argument is focused precisely on that distinction.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    Nope – that’s what people who promote CICO ignore.
     
    Might as well save your breath. Unless your argument can be reduced to a tautology, utu will never understand it.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    Please allow me to enlist you and all on this thread in helping me find an answer to my questions about eating fat.

    My short question is based on this. Since my cardiologist prescribed Rosuvastatin (Crestor) as my regular statin my cholesterol levels have been oustandingly good, low overall and LDL but high HDL ("good cholesterol"). So instead of breakfasting on only smoked salmon on grainy unbuttered toast and coffee without sugar i have indulged my taste for expensive cheeses and have eaten considerably more cheese than smoked salmon together with not eating between 8pm (20:00) and 12:30 to 15:00 the next day as my version of intermittent fastimg. I have also resumed eating quite a lot of high quality - but not low fat - ice cream. Most days I take about 6 fish oil capsules unless eating fish.

    Simple questio....Are my cholesterol (and triglyceride) levels enough evidence yhat I am not eating too much fat? (Of course I used to avoid saturated fats for decades as well as keeping quite fit).

    Although I get bored with exercise like walking a dog I have over my sdult life managed to keep pretty fit with fairly intense exercise, my training for and running a marathon at 42 being uncharacteristically boring. While my weight has been as high as 195 pounds - and was 157 pounds for the marathon and 25 years earlier at 17 for rowing it is now a more typical 184 and BMI I guess a fraction under 25. So.... can I safely stick to my cheese, ice cresm and chocolate ?

    the French Paradox

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_paradox

    (unusually high saturated fat consumption combined with unusually low rate of heart disease)

    they eat a lot of cheese

    cheese is a good source of vitamin K2

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_K2

    which decalcifies the arteries

    calcification of arteries (CAC test) best predictor of heart attacks

    (not cholesterol)

    #

    TL;DR

    there’s fat and then there’s the fat-soluble vitamins inside some fats

    if you cut out the fat you cut out those vitamins

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • People think I’m crazy when I tell them that I’ve had the most success in losing weight by NOT EATING. “That can’t be good for you,” they say.

    Read More
    • Agree: Che Guava
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • One thing that the author may wish to try is a study in which IQ is measured in people with diets of the modern satiety suppression variety, and with traditional/satisfying diets. What happens to their IQs a week after the switch? IQ is predictive of scholastic achievement, yet my father, who was a school teacher and later principal, found that the behaviour of problem children could be improved by giving them a meal before the school day started—their parents were often too dysfunctional to give them breakfast. Note that such a hypothesis would not contradict other biological aspects of IQ (genetic, heavy metal, iodine, prenatal and infant malnutrition, etc).

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • The calorie model didn’t work for me. When I switched to a high fat intake model, I lost a lot of fat but actually got heavier. My conclusion is that the kind of calories I eat is more important than the numbers. The SAD (standard American diet) leans toward simple carbohydrates and industrial oils masquerading as fats.

    Eating animal fats, coconut oil, palm oil and nutrient dense organ meats and fresh vegetables helps me trim fat from my body and build muscle. Muscle weighs more than fat, so replacing fat with muscle mass makes me weigh more. Also, modern dwarf strains of wheat have a type of gluten that causes me to have inflammation and makes me feel like I’m still hungry even after eating, so I avoid modern wheat flours and use Einkorn flour and spelt flour in my baking instead.

    That picture of the everything burger would have been more appealing to me 12 years ago before I stopped eating that kind of thing.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    Please allow me to enlist you and all on this thread in helping me find an answer to my questions about eating fat.

    My short question is based on this. Since my cardiologist prescribed Rosuvastatin (Crestor) as my regular statin my cholesterol levels have been oustandingly good, low overall and LDL but high HDL ("good cholesterol"). So instead of breakfasting on only smoked salmon on grainy unbuttered toast and coffee without sugar i have indulged my taste for expensive cheeses and have eaten considerably more cheese than smoked salmon together with not eating between 8pm (20:00) and 12:30 to 15:00 the next day as my version of intermittent fastimg. I have also resumed eating quite a lot of high quality - but not low fat - ice cream. Most days I take about 6 fish oil capsules unless eating fish.

    Simple questio....Are my cholesterol (and triglyceride) levels enough evidence yhat I am not eating too much fat? (Of course I used to avoid saturated fats for decades as well as keeping quite fit).

    Although I get bored with exercise like walking a dog I have over my sdult life managed to keep pretty fit with fairly intense exercise, my training for and running a marathon at 42 being uncharacteristically boring. While my weight has been as high as 195 pounds - and was 157 pounds for the marathon and 25 years earlier at 17 for rowing it is now a more typical 184 and BMI I guess a fraction under 25. So.... can I safely stick to my cheese, ice cresm and chocolate ?

    “my cholesterol levels have been oustandingly good”: what’s good about them? How do you know what a “good” level should be? Do you plan to pursue this “good” level for the rest of your life?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I would have just quoted the levels on the assumption that typical readers, e.g. all practising everyday hypochondriacs paying close attention on UR (presumed as obsessive as the Holocaust deniers, WTC7 sub branch members of the 9/11 squad etc.) would know what they signified but I couldn't be bothered to look for the latest pieces of paper in my medical records and couldn't remember whether my HDL level was really a little above the LDL or the other way round. Also the translation from Australian mmol/l to US mg/dl might be dodgy. My recollection is that typical total cholesterol is 5.5 mmol/l and that 6.5 starts to get a bit worrying. Mine is now 4.2 or less. As HDL (the "good cholesterol") removes fats which might otherwise be forming plaque in the arteries (whereas Low Density Lipoprotein lays down plaque that blocks arteries) apparently one should have, for safety, a ratio of HDL to total cholesterol of less than 1 to 3.5. My ratio is right down near 1 to 2. Resuming the eating of lots of cheese since changing statin (previously Lipex twice a day; now Crestor once a day) hasn't changed the good figures.

    So..... i wonder whether I could be as lucky as I seem on my existing diet and drug régime. And I invite knowledgeable comment.

    I note below that French cheese eaters are credited with having their arteries decalcified and retaining a lot of fat soluble vitamins. So far so good. And my blood sugar levels aren't dangerous. What is more I am going over to the Stevia based sweeteners which apparently don't produce odd anomalous sugar like effects wrt insulin that some sweeteners do. (Anything known about that curiosity?).
    , @Wizard of Oz
    OMG! Read this as if I had managed to send it as "Anonymous".
    See my reply as Wizard of Oz. No mystery about my having used "Anonymous". It was because I used a new phone and my particulars were blank and I chose to comment as Anonymous for no particular reason. Wizard of Oz, who boasts a 100 year old aunt will no longer hide his hypochondria.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Interesting debate.

    I am a mechanical engineer and has worked with development of new products and procedures in mechanical and electronic engineering for many years.
    I am not a into medical science.
    In the following there are parts which I consider facts and parts I have deducted – the last ones will be marked (guess).

    Some years ago I had a heart attack and afterwards I joined a recovery group and was told it would be a good idea to lose weight, what I knew.

    They also gave good advice about food etc., which my wife knew and did not keep as a secret. I was sure, our food was healthy and nutritious.

    I thought about it and tried to find out how to do reduce weight in an efficient way. There are masses of advice available – scientific and otherwise, cures, procedures and medicaments.
    Nearly all has two claims:
    1. That other cures/methods do not work or do not work in the longer run.
    2. That their own cure/method do work and does it quickly.

    My old mother in law once told me that you should eat spinach when it is healthy – she had experienced it had shifted from healthy to unhealthy several times.
    The reading showed the same. The nutritional science is developing, its not yet a set of rules and dependencies which are finally proved. (Guess)

    Some interesting things:
    (Facts): You will loose weight if you eat less. The concentration camps in Germany showed this. Also, the body can survive a long time on extremely low intake of food.

    During the war, most members of the Danish police force were rounded up and send to a German concentration camp. It was not an extermination camp, but the food was scarce and nearly stopped at the end. Most did survive and was busied back to Denmark after the war as near skeletons. They were taken good care of and after a year they had regained their former weight – they could all fit their old clothes. The thins were thin and the fats were fat again.

    Anoter Fact: Many can keep their weight over extended times – 10 years or more.

    If we consider why people can keep their weight instead of why they loose/gain weight some interesting comes up.
    The body works with stuff in – work – stuff out. It is multiple very complex processes and some are most likely not even known.
    The input can change and how the body work may change in but the clothes will still fit.
    Appetite are supposed to regulate the intake so it fits the use of energy but this cannot be the only factor, as it is often is opposed by temptation which is a non-body factor.

    (Guess): In my opinion, there must be another form of regulation. It may be that the body can regulate the efficiency of the process so the food will be used more or less efficient.

    (Guess): This means that the body has a preferred weight and that it will try to maintain this weight if you try to manipulate it by changing the food intake. You may succeed in a shorter time but will fail over long time unless the body accept the new weight as ‘normal’. When changing you weight you must reset the regulator to the wanted level.

    (Guess): The results from the Danish police and people I have talked to which have had a successful slimming shows that a slimming or weight gain may be stable if the end results correspond to a former ‘normal’ weight.
    So, if you slim to a former ‘normal’ weight and maintain this for a short time, the body will try to maintain this weight. If you do not reach this weight (properly best a kilo or two below so the body can regulate up to a ‘normal’), then the body will start to try to reach the ‘normal’ weight it had before the slimming.
    If you try to fix weight at a non-’normal’ weight you may need work hard to keep the weight down and establish a new ‘normal’.

    After all my reading I found that I would not be able to count calories etc. all the time but that the following should work:

    A) Avoid sugar inclusive sweeteners

    B) Take the small potato instead of the big and the small steak instead of the big.
    (For served meals: Decide how much to eat before you start)

    C) No second serve.

    It worked very well for me, I lost more than 10 kilo and can maintain a a weight I had 10 years ago.

    Read More
    • Replies: @notanon

    A) Avoid sugar inclusive sweeteners
     
    engineering approach to diet

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvuGm8VYkQY
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • One of the basic principle lesson in the field of Chemical Engineering is as the following:
    IN – OUT = Accumulation
    This simple equation applies to every aspect of human life. An example would be the calories we take in by what we eat minus calories we expend during our active hours equals to accumulation of calories or fat in our bodies! Our target must be to have near zero or even a little less than zero calories accumulated in our body daily or weekly or monthly whichever is convenient for us as a life style! This equation works for me and I’m happy that so far has kept me healthy! Try it because it’s free and it may work for you too!

    Read More
    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    How many calories do you burn daily?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @CanSpeccy

    Again you lost control. You know that sentence is not true, so why did you write it?
     
    Oh 'fuck off, Utu. You're such a cretin it gives one the idea that Ron Unz's ongoing software project must be to create AI trolls for regulation of the Internet, you being a prime example of troll gone wrong.

    You just keep repeating your mindless little mathematical equality:

    when input equals output weight gain equals zero.

    Well obviously, you moron. What is not obvious is what controls the balance. Is it self control? Are we supposed like Nikola Tesla to measure the volume of everything on our plate before we begin to eat, ensuring somehow that we don't eat more than we will burn?

    That's not what the vast majority of people do. They eat when hungry and stop eating when "full." That's why the effect eating junk food on the endocrinological and neurological mechanisms that regulate appetite and satiety matter. Its why junk food has resulted in an epidemic of obesity and diabetes.

    But no one should expect a mathematician to understand empirical science. Science cannot be reduced to a set of tautologies.

    CanSpeccy, I hope you are not at risk of aneurysm. Take it easy. I’ll let you be for a while.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    CanSpeccy, I hope you are not at risk of aneurysm.
     
    Your obtuseness being due, perhaps, to the fact you've already suffered an aneurysm.

    However, it seems more likely that you are a no more than a mechanical troll gone wrong.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @notanon

    We have established that CICO is valid and it works. The ones who object to it are misinformed...
     
    self-evident nonsense

    CICO only applies if every calorie is burned

    the counter argument is that *not* all the ingested calories are being burned - some are stored as fat or in other ways to counter act excessive blood sugar levels

    You are so confused. You do not distinguish between calories ingested and calories absorbed. Only calories absorbed can be either burned or converted to body mass. I was trying to point out that the biggest problem in empirical studies is that we (they) do not know what fraction of calories ingested is absorbed. They routinely estimate it with Atwater factors but these are very crude estimates. That’s why results are all over when diets are compared which creates confusion and plenty of room for charlatans to make special claims about their diets padded with pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo.

    And as I tried to point out the role of digestive system flora is crucial but often overlooked.

    Read More
    • Replies: @notanon

    You are so confused. You do not distinguish between calories ingested and calories absorbed.
     
    Nope - that's what people who promote CICO ignore. The counter argument is focused precisely on that distinction.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @HPLCguru
    I am a biochemist. The author is right about eating less - simple thermodynamics but this is science which is rigorous. What media presents (no conspiracy needed) is scientism which is rhetoric and tells a story without the usual "doubts" associated with rigorous science (we don't know or we can't be sure etc). The one mistake in the article was about exercise. Exercise increases metabolism (metabolic rate), decreases appetite and increases muscle mass. People who exercise will lose inches but may initially gain weight since muscle is more dense than fat. Diets which only restrict calories always lower metabolism and then the body makes fat to prepare for a famine. Imagine telling someone in 1900 about a stair stepper, a treadmill and a STATIONARY bike: We evolved "getting a lot of exercise" surviving and until industrial revolution agriculture was done by human and animal labor - no one needed "exercise".

    Be so good as to consider a reply to #130

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Andrew Swift
    I lost 50 pounds over an 18-month period, and gained 60 pounds back over the following four years.

    First: doing sports does not in and of itself cause you to lose weight, but it definitely helped me feel better about myself which in turn led to making better food choices.

    Second: it is absolutely true that if you eat less you lose weight. Eating fewer high-calory foods obviously works better than cutting back on lettuce.

    However (and I think this is why people reacted so strongly), if you push your body into scarcity mode, a whole host of things happen inside you to try to counteract the physical threat of starving.

    You cannot control these things, and they all push you to gain instead of lose weight:

    - Your body will be able to run on fewer calories. Eating the same foods after a diet will leave you with more calories left over to store as fat.

    - Neurological changes will make you more likely to notice food than before dieting.

    - It will become harder to stop thinking about food once you notice it.

    - Food will taste better.

    - Food will give you a bigger rush of dopamine.

    - Your levels of the hormone leptin go down and it will take more food to make you feel full.

    - After dieting, you will be hungrier than before you started. Your regular non-diet lunch won’t make you full any more.

    - Dieting disrupts executive function, the process that helps with self-control. After dieting you will have less willpower when you need more.

    There's an informative but very badly written article at

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-thin-people-dont-understand-about-dieting/
     
    I can confirm from my own experience that these are true. Most noticeably, it takes much more food for me to stop feeling hungry than it did before I dieted.

    I have lots of willpower, and I can reduce my intake without too much difficulty. But, I can't sleep when I'm hungry so I end up eating more than I used to just to, be able to sleep through the night.

    Finally, the biggest reason why I stopped losing weight and started gaining it was that it was such a bother to have to explain to people around me why I was eating differently.

    I cannot emphasize this enough: every single person had an opinion about how I was doing it wrong and how I should eat differently. I got so sick of defending myself that I just stopped monitoring my eating habits.

    Then, given the above bullet points, my weight just drifted steadily upwards.

    With the caveat that putting your body into scarcity mode will most likely cause you to gain weight in the end, you are right that it is the main way to lose weight.

    I have lost some weight recently, and doing regular physical activity has been important in helping me feel good enough to refuse an extra helping of cake. This time I am taking care not to diet but just to make better choices about the small things.

    I love your articles and your blog is prominently listed on my blog's recommendations page.

    Please allow me to enlist you and all on this thread in helping me find an answer to my questions about eating fat.

    My short question is based on this. Since my cardiologist prescribed Rosuvastatin (Crestor) as my regular statin my cholesterol levels have been oustandingly good, low overall and LDL but high HDL (“good cholesterol”). So instead of breakfasting on only smoked salmon on grainy unbuttered toast and coffee without sugar i have indulged my taste for expensive cheeses and have eaten considerably more cheese than smoked salmon together with not eating between 8pm (20:00) and 12:30 to 15:00 the next day as my version of intermittent fastimg. I have also resumed eating quite a lot of high quality – but not low fat – ice cream. Most days I take about 6 fish oil capsules unless eating fish.

    Simple questio….Are my cholesterol (and triglyceride) levels enough evidence yhat I am not eating too much fat? (Of course I used to avoid saturated fats for decades as well as keeping quite fit).

    Although I get bored with exercise like walking a dog I have over my sdult life managed to keep pretty fit with fairly intense exercise, my training for and running a marathon at 42 being uncharacteristically boring. While my weight has been as high as 195 pounds – and was 157 pounds for the marathon and 25 years earlier at 17 for rowing it is now a more typical 184 and BMI I guess a fraction under 25. So…. can I safely stick to my cheese, ice cresm and chocolate ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    "my cholesterol levels have been oustandingly good": what's good about them? How do you know what a "good" level should be? Do you plan to pursue this "good" level for the rest of your life?
    , @notanon
    the French Paradox

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_paradox

    (unusually high saturated fat consumption combined with unusually low rate of heart disease)

    they eat a lot of cheese

    cheese is a good source of vitamin K2

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_K2

    which decalcifies the arteries

    calcification of arteries (CAC test) best predictor of heart attacks

    (not cholesterol)

    #

    TL;DR

    there's fat and then there's the fat-soluble vitamins inside some fats

    if you cut out the fat you cut out those vitamins

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @PiltdownMan
    There's food everywhere, restaurants and take-outs everywhere.

    Here's an NIH article on obesogenic environments.


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015813/

    http://urbantoronto.ca/sites/default/files/imagecache/display-slideshow/images/articles/2014/04/9780/urbantoronto-9780-34527.jpg

    You cannot review the “obesegenic” environment without considering the composition of the food that the environment makes available. Its the ubiquity of French fries, chocolate fudge sundaes and Classic Coke that make an environment obeseogenic.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Hu Mi Yu

    Top 10 Foods Highest in Glucose
     
    Fake news. Honey is about the same thing as corn syrup: Fifty to sixty-four percent fructose and thirty-six to fifty percent glucose in a supersaturated solution with 20% water. Starch has the highest glucose content per weight. It is not even on the list.

    It is the fructose content of the listed foods that is the problem: not the glucose.

    Fake news.

    Hu Mi Yu, you must be even dumber than Utu. You say you’re diabetic, yet you advocate diabetics consume glucose, which is idiotic.

    This site is infested with nuts and trolls with whom it is pointless to debate. Some of the rudest and dumbest are in name or by their own contention of Chinese origin or affiliation, which seems weird, as the Chinese people that I know personally are both well mannered and intelligent.

    Read More
    • Agree: RaceRealist88
    • Replies: @Hu Mi Yu

    Hu Mi Yu, you must be even dumber than Utu. You say you’re diabetic, yet you advocate diabetics consume glucose, which is idiotic.
     
    Pretty much everyone consumes glucose in form of starch or sugar. It is in everything. You can treat high blood glucose levels by taking insulin, or you can do as I did, and as Dr. Lustig suggests and stop eating fructose. Most sugar is a mixture of fructose and glucose. I suggest avoiding fructose: not eating more glucose.

    This site is infested with nuts and trolls with whom it is pointless to debate. Some of the rudest and dumbest are in name or by their own contention of Chinese origin or affiliation, which seems weird, as the Chinese people that I know personally are both well mannered and intelligent.
     
    Now we know why you are here! (snicker)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @utu

    Yes, for many, self-control is required if they are to avoid obesity, but it is self-control over what is eaten, not over how much, is eaten.
     
    Again you lost control. You know that sentence is not true, so why did you write it?

    Again you lost control. You know that sentence is not true, so why did you write it?

    Oh ‘fuck off, Utu. You’re such a cretin it gives one the idea that Ron Unz’s ongoing software project must be to create AI trolls for regulation of the Internet, you being a prime example of troll gone wrong.

    You just keep repeating your mindless little mathematical equality:

    when input equals output weight gain equals zero.

    Well obviously, you moron. What is not obvious is what controls the balance. Is it self control? Are we supposed like Nikola Tesla to measure the volume of everything on our plate before we begin to eat, ensuring somehow that we don’t eat more than we will burn?

    That’s not what the vast majority of people do. They eat when hungry and stop eating when “full.” That’s why the effect eating junk food on the endocrinological and neurological mechanisms that regulate appetite and satiety matter. Its why junk food has resulted in an epidemic of obesity and diabetes.

    But no one should expect a mathematician to understand empirical science. Science cannot be reduced to a set of tautologies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    CanSpeccy, I hope you are not at risk of aneurysm. Take it easy. I'll let you be for a while.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • There’s food everywhere, restaurants and take-outs everywhere.

    Here’s an NIH article on obesogenic environments.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015813/

    Read More
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    You cannot review the "obesegenic" environment without considering the composition of the food that the environment makes available. Its the ubiquity of French fries, chocolate fudge sundaes and Classic Coke that make an environment obeseogenic.
    , @Anon
    Lol, this is downtown Toronto in the picture. Almost nobody's fat there. It's populated by SWPL/hipsters and ambitious careerists who know looking fit is an asset. And you walk or bike everywhere because there's no space for a car.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @utu
    We have established that CICO is valid and it works. The ones who object to it are misinformed (by pseudoscientific charlatans) cranks. The cranks will point to cases that different diets of the same caloric content lead to different outcomes or that the same diet has different effects on different people. While people may have different metabolisms that may change with age the biggest unknown in the CICO equation is CI, i.e., the energy absorbed. Nobody really measures this energy in studies. Only energy of ingested food is estimated. To estimate the absorbed energy the fecal matter must be analyzed. This is rather unpleasant so it usually is skipped. What determines the amount of the fecal matter and what is in it? Chiefly the flora and fauna that live in out guts. Certainly fauna can be very helpful in reducing CI. Getting a tapeworm will most certainly guarantee a weigh loss.

    Iowa woman tries 'tapeworm diet', prompts doctor warning
    https://www.today.com/health/iowa-woman-tries-tapeworm-diet-prompts-doctor-warning-6C10935746
     
    Everybody has flora but not of the same type. It has been demonstrated that depending on the flora people may have very different outcomes.

    https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/do-gut-bacteria-inhibit-weight-loss
    Then scientists took bacteria from the guts of human identical twins, one of whom was obese and one of whom was lean, and transferred those bacteria into the guts of lean, germ-free mice. Bacteria from the obese twin made the mice become fat, but bacteria from the lean twin did not.
     
    There are more studies being conducted to transplant the bacteria from fecal matter.

    Eating poop pills could make you thin. Seriously.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2016/01/14/eating-poop-pills-could-make-you-thin-seriously/?utm_term=.738425a18b2e
     
    This should not be considered new or alarming. Already in 1930s German physicians were making pills form fecal matter to transplant "good" bacterias. They had a peculiar interest in stools so toilets were constructed in such a way that a stool could be visually and organoleptically (minus taste) evaluated. Anglo-Saxons somehow preferred to be in denial of this part of human experience which costed them losing to Germans in this area of medical science.

    Now, actually Adolf Hitler was undergoing this therapy. Not for the weigh loss but for some other digestive system ailments. Though he did not seem to be too overweight despite that he loved sweets (kuchen) while on his low protein vegetarian diet.

    We have established that CICO is valid and it works. The ones who object to it are misinformed…

    self-evident nonsense

    CICO only applies if every calorie is burned

    the counter argument is that *not* all the ingested calories are being burned – some are stored as fat or in other ways to counter act excessive blood sugar levels

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    • Replies: @utu
    You are so confused. You do not distinguish between calories ingested and calories absorbed. Only calories absorbed can be either burned or converted to body mass. I was trying to point out that the biggest problem in empirical studies is that we (they) do not know what fraction of calories ingested is absorbed. They routinely estimate it with Atwater factors but these are very crude estimates. That's why results are all over when diets are compared which creates confusion and plenty of room for charlatans to make special claims about their diets padded with pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo.

    And as I tried to point out the role of digestive system flora is crucial but often overlooked.
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  • @Intelligent Dasein
    I have no opinion on this subject except to say that it is a decidedly First World problem of modern provenance and shallow import. In an earlier century, the immediate danger to most people would have consisted in having too little to eat rather than too much, and yet they were not nearly as obsessed with dietary concerns as we are. In those days men busied themselves about how to please God, how to calculate the paths of the heavenly bodies or navigate around the world. But modern man devotes what remains of his flagging passion to dietary questions and other trivialities, simply because the weary, formless, urbane intellect can find no more important problems than these. Both obesity and the anxiety it inspires belong to the long list of symptoms testifying to the pointlessness of contemporary life.

    In those days men busied themselves about … modern man devotes what remains of his flagging passion to dietary questions and other trivialities

    diabesity epidemic -> metabolic syndrome -> “flagging passion”

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    • LOL: CanSpeccy
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  • ”Only idiots refuse to acknowledge excess. Society is littered with examples of the consequences. Eating too much results in indigestion and lethargy, and, if done regularly, obesity and an early grave.

    We’d be forgiven for thinking that these simple truths don’t or won’t apply to the financial markets.” :

    Mr Creosote is full

    http://emergingmarkets.me/guest-post-mr-creosote-full/

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  • @Johan Meyer
    There is a behavioral issue with fructose versus glucose. Fructose undermines the satiety signal much more effectively per calorie than does glucose. Eating too much of either (too large portions) will stop the satiety signal, but glucose is iirc four times more efficient at undermining the satiety signal. Then again, absence of fat in food (low fat diets) have the same effect.

    Correction: fructose is four times more effective iirc than glucose, in undermining satiety.

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  • Thermodynamics applies.

    if eating certain foods spikes your blood sugar levels to the point where the body does things with those potential calories other than burning them then thermodynamics still applies – but calories in vs calories out doesn’t.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycation#Endogenous

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_resistance

    eat less sugar

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  • @Hu Mi Yu

    Is the malabsorption of fructose to which you refer fructose caught in fibre, or dissolved fructose? My understanding of Lustig’s argument is the fibre-entrapped fructose mainly does give rise to the symptoms described in normal individuals, and that that is a secondary satiety signal.
     
    Dr. Lustig asserts that fructose caught in fiber (for example apples) is not a problem for normal individuals. I have found that fructose with fiber definitely is a problem for me.

    I am not writing of fructose malabsorption here, but of problems with fructose metabolism. Malaborption is the most common problem with fructose. As in the case of lactose intolerance this indicates that we are not adapted to diets high in it. We have increased .ability to digest starch compared to our early ancestors, and correspondingly we have a reduced ability to metabolize fructose on the average. It varies from individual to individual.

    I haven't mentioned this so far, but the diet I use is also low in fructans. Fructans are polymers of fructose, just as starches are polymers of glucose. According to accepted wisdom fructans do not digest, and they are classified as fiber. However there is no question they are a problem for me. For one thing I have a contact allergy to nearly all grasses, and grasses contain fructans in their cell walls. The only grain that I have to restrict in my "paleo" diet is barley. After I found this out, I looked it up and found that barley is the grain highest in fructans. Wheat and rice are low, and I can eat these without restriction. However "wheat" bread and even flour are nearly always mixed with barley in the US, so it is difficult to find wheat based products that I can eat.

    Recently I found out that there are also polymers of galactose called galactans. As far as I can tell, the only food that contains them is agar. I have reserved for the future a challenge to see if I can tolerate agar, but I have no desire to be ill again at present.

    Do you know what the prevalence of the ability (breaking down 5 carbon sugar polymers) is?

    Another thing I see is xylose (5 carbon sugar, like fructose) being added to wheat flour (six).

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    • Replies: @Hu Mi Yu

    Do you know what the prevalence of the ability (breaking down 5 carbon sugar polymers) is?
     
    Fructose is a 6-carbon sugar that forms a 5-carbon ring in the blood (one carbon is outside the ring). Glucose is a 6-carbon sugar that forms a 6-carbon ring.

    Fructose polymers (fructans) are not supposed to be digestible (they are counted as fiber). However some people are sensitive to them, apparently including me. This is an area that is still poorly understood. I have had no luck finding even basic information like typical blood fructose levels after ingestion.

    For many years there was a widespread misconception that fructose and glucose were interchangeable due to the fact that the Tollen test taught in basic organic chemistry reports both. Fructose and glucose exist in equilibrium in the high pH of the Tollen test, but this is not true at physiological pH. This news has not completely filtered down to those on the front lines of medicine and nutrition.

    Another thing I see is xylose (5 carbon sugar, like fructose) being added to wheat flour (six).

     

    Xylose is a 5 carbon sugar derived from wood that is not fully understood. Web searches turn up conflicting information. I certainly would not want it in my food.
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  • @CanSpeccy

    My argument, which some found difficult to follow, is that the main cause of obesity is eating too much, and the balance between food types is a secondary consideration to that.
     
    That is the argument your critics reject, not because they reject the principle of the conservation of energy but because what you call a "secondary consideration" is in fact the central consideration.

    Your critics have stated the evidence, you have not refuted it.

    Sure there are cases of pathol0gical obesity that cannot be dealt with simply by changing what is eaten without regard to how much is eaten.

    But the question of major social importance is why is obesity and diabetes increasing. According to your contention, in times past, in Britain for example, when obesity was a rare condition, most people went to bed hungry, either because the could not afford to eat more or because they had more self-control that their present day descendants.

    This seems most unlikely in view of the evidence that the composition of diet has endocrinological effects on appetite and satiety and the fact that there has been a vast increase in the availability and consumption of processed and fast foods rich in sugars and refined carbohydrates that increase appetite and diminish satiety.

    Yes, for many, self-control is required if they are to avoid obesity, but it is self-control over what is eaten, not over how much, is eaten.

    Eat as much beef, broccoli, brown rice and porridge as you like. But no Oreos, no fudge sundaes, no candy bars, no sugar in tea or coffee, no frozen orange juice, no pop, and no beer.

    For most people, that's it. That's all they need to know to control their weight: consume no junk.

    Yes, for many, self-control is required if they are to avoid obesity, but it is self-control over what is eaten, not over how much, is eaten.

    Again you lost control. You know that sentence is not true, so why did you write it?

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    Again you lost control. You know that sentence is not true, so why did you write it?
     
    Oh 'fuck off, Utu. You're such a cretin it gives one the idea that Ron Unz's ongoing software project must be to create AI trolls for regulation of the Internet, you being a prime example of troll gone wrong.

    You just keep repeating your mindless little mathematical equality:

    when input equals output weight gain equals zero.

    Well obviously, you moron. What is not obvious is what controls the balance. Is it self control? Are we supposed like Nikola Tesla to measure the volume of everything on our plate before we begin to eat, ensuring somehow that we don't eat more than we will burn?

    That's not what the vast majority of people do. They eat when hungry and stop eating when "full." That's why the effect eating junk food on the endocrinological and neurological mechanisms that regulate appetite and satiety matter. Its why junk food has resulted in an epidemic of obesity and diabetes.

    But no one should expect a mathematician to understand empirical science. Science cannot be reduced to a set of tautologies.

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  • @Hu Mi Yu

    Where, exactly, does one find food/drink products that contain any significant glucose?
     
    The main dietary source of pure glucose is starch. During digestion starches are hydrolyzed into glucose and maltose (contains two glucose molecules). There are other sources as well. The original formula for Gatorade was sweetened with glucose, but after Pepsi bought the brand, they changed the formula to make it sweeter. On a the hereditary fructose intolerance forum (hfi.proboards.com: now defunct), they used to talk about a candy called pixie sticks made with glucose. This morning I made some limeade from fresh limes (no fructose) and glucose I bought from a local health food store. It tasted great.

    Trade synonyms for glucose include dextrose and corn sugar. Corn syrup contains fructose though.

    a candy called pixie sticks

    I remember reading on a paleo site once that Sweet Tarts are made exclusively with glucose.

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    • Replies: @Hu Mi Yu

    I remember reading on a paleo site once that Sweet Tarts are made exclusively with glucose.
     
    Thanks. Will check out the ingredients next time I am in the supermarket.
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  • I refuse to believe that 1500 calories of arsenic and formaldehyde are as good for you as 1500 calories of burgers and milkshakes.

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  • We have established that CICO is valid and it works. The ones who object to it are misinformed (by pseudoscientific charlatans) cranks. The cranks will point to cases that different diets of the same caloric content lead to different outcomes or that the same diet has different effects on different people. While people may have different metabolisms that may change with age the biggest unknown in the CICO equation is CI, i.e., the energy absorbed. Nobody really measures this energy in studies. Only energy of ingested food is estimated. To estimate the absorbed energy the fecal matter must be analyzed. This is rather unpleasant so it usually is skipped. What determines the amount of the fecal matter and what is in it? Chiefly the flora and fauna that live in out guts. Certainly fauna can be very helpful in reducing CI. Getting a tapeworm will most certainly guarantee a weigh loss.

    Iowa woman tries ‘tapeworm diet’, prompts doctor warning
    https://www.today.com/health/iowa-woman-tries-tapeworm-diet-prompts-doctor-warning-6C10935746

    Everybody has flora but not of the same type. It has been demonstrated that depending on the flora people may have very different outcomes.

    https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/do-gut-bacteria-inhibit-weight-loss
    Then scientists took bacteria from the guts of human identical twins, one of whom was obese and one of whom was lean, and transferred those bacteria into the guts of lean, germ-free mice. Bacteria from the obese twin made the mice become fat, but bacteria from the lean twin did not.

    There are more studies being conducted to transplant the bacteria from fecal matter.

    Eating poop pills could make you thin. Seriously.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2016/01/14/eating-poop-pills-could-make-you-thin-seriously/?utm_term=.738425a18b2e

    This should not be considered new or alarming. Already in 1930s German physicians were making pills form fecal matter to transplant “good” bacterias. They had a peculiar interest in stools so toilets were constructed in such a way that a stool could be visually and organoleptically (minus taste) evaluated. Anglo-Saxons somehow preferred to be in denial of this part of human experience which costed them losing to Germans in this area of medical science.

    Now, actually Adolf Hitler was undergoing this therapy. Not for the weigh loss but for some other digestive system ailments. Though he did not seem to be too overweight despite that he loved sweets (kuchen) while on his low protein vegetarian diet.

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    • Replies: @notanon

    We have established that CICO is valid and it works. The ones who object to it are misinformed...
     
    self-evident nonsense

    CICO only applies if every calorie is burned

    the counter argument is that *not* all the ingested calories are being burned - some are stored as fat or in other ways to counter act excessive blood sugar levels
    , @Anon

    Now, actually Adolf Hitler was undergoing this therapy. Not for the weigh loss but for some other digestive system ailments. Though he did not seem to be too overweight despite that he loved sweets (kuchen) while on his low protein vegetarian diet.
     
    Hitler was high on amphetamines most of the time, and their side effect is suppressed appetite.
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  • @Lars Porsena
    I'd be tempted to comment but once again I have thought better for myself. This is just a humble neo-monarchist racist deplorable antisemitic conspiracy website, I don't want to get dragged into anything too controversial or acrimonious like dietary advice.

    Made me laugh anyway. Doesn’t matter what you believe, everybody’s got triggers.

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  • FYI, here is a 15 minute overview of Dr. Robert Lustig’s theories of obesity:

    He is a proponent of low carb diets and explains the metabolic complexity of weight gain.

    Pretty informative.

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  • @botazefa
    I think that page you are linked to is talking about glycemic index.

    Glucose is manufactured by the body from other sugars in our food.

    My point is, we don't eat glucose.

    My point is, we don’t eat glucose.

    Yes, we do. It is contained in fruits and vegetables as well as starches. When they add it to food, they call it dextrose.

    Other sugars are converted into glucose by the liver with varying degrees of efficiency.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    You seldom find obesity in poor Asia, East European and African countries in 1970s who need to do labour work like farming, with little to eat, very simple natural starchy diet, mostly 2meals a day. It still happen in these countries rural regions, but not cities that invaded by western junk food and chilled drinks culture.

    Artificial food, cold drinks, junk food are luxuries then, and diabetes are privilege for the rich. They usually live till 70's still strong enough for farm work, with lean body and little illness. Starch and sweet things are their main energy source without problem.

    Diabetes are due to malfunctioning pancreas unable to regulate insulin, usually due to taking too much cold foods and drinks. Pancreas is the illness source, high sugar level diabetes is only the symptom. Western medical research and treatments focus on symptoms which can only be temporary suppress, no one ever heal by western medications.

    TCM focus on root cause to eliminate illness, and diabetes is not consider a illness in TCM but only a sign of pancreatic problem. Diabetes usually also cause high BP and cholesterol problem.

    Eat less(70% full), organic food (including brown rice/ sugar is good), simple diet (without refine food like white rice/sugar), work out more for daily perspiration. Nature work itself best when people go back to natural lifestyle.

    This is what Traditional Chinese Medicine physicians have observed, and able to treat 3 High symptoms, high sugar, high BP, high cholesterol, very effectively. That's how i get my old mother decade of 3 highs illnesses treated within a month using TCM herbal treatment to revitalize pancreas(by using warm nature herbs) with diet control, to the great surprise of her geriatric.

    But once she return to her usual junk food and cold drinks lifestyle, the illnesses return. In facts, sugar intake has no effect to her diabetes during treatment in my observation, as healthy pancreas is able to regular itself well. Science is still far from truly understanding how nature work.

    Try this and see if its help.
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  • @CanSpeccy

    Where, exactly, does one find food/drink products that contain any significant glucose?
     
    Top 10 Foods Highest in Glucose

    Don't you love them all? That's why obesity and diabetes have become epidemic.

    Top 10 Foods Highest in Glucose

    Fake news. Honey is about the same thing as corn syrup: Fifty to sixty-four percent fructose and thirty-six to fifty percent glucose in a supersaturated solution with 20% water. Starch has the highest glucose content per weight. It is not even on the list.

    It is the fructose content of the listed foods that is the problem: not the glucose.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    Fake news.
     
    Hu Mi Yu, you must be even dumber than Utu. You say you're diabetic, yet you advocate diabetics consume glucose, which is idiotic.

    This site is infested with nuts and trolls with whom it is pointless to debate. Some of the rudest and dumbest are in name or by their own contention of Chinese origin or affiliation, which seems weird, as the Chinese people that I know personally are both well mannered and intelligent.

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  • @CanSpeccy

    Where, exactly, does one find food/drink products that contain any significant glucose?
     
    Top 10 Foods Highest in Glucose

    Don't you love them all? That's why obesity and diabetes have become epidemic.

    I think that page you are linked to is talking about glycemic index.

    Glucose is manufactured by the body from other sugars in our food.

    My point is, we don’t eat glucose.

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    • Replies: @Hu Mi Yu

    My point is, we don’t eat glucose.
     
    Yes, we do. It is contained in fruits and vegetables as well as starches. When they add it to food, they call it dextrose.

    Other sugars are converted into glucose by the liver with varying degrees of efficiency.
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  • I am a biochemist. The author is right about eating less – simple thermodynamics but this is science which is rigorous. What media presents (no conspiracy needed) is scientism which is rhetoric and tells a story without the usual “doubts” associated with rigorous science (we don’t know or we can’t be sure etc). The one mistake in the article was about exercise. Exercise increases metabolism (metabolic rate), decreases appetite and increases muscle mass. People who exercise will lose inches but may initially gain weight since muscle is more dense than fat. Diets which only restrict calories always lower metabolism and then the body makes fat to prepare for a famine. Imagine telling someone in 1900 about a stair stepper, a treadmill and a STATIONARY bike: We evolved “getting a lot of exercise” surviving and until industrial revolution agriculture was done by human and animal labor – no one needed “exercise”.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Be so good as to consider a reply to #130
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  • Get between me and my sammich, Thompson, and I’ll put you in a world of hurt.

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  • @AaronB

    It is something, certainly, not to be so stupid as to believe in IQ tests.
     
    It is! And thank you for realizing that. With that one small comment you have elevated yourself above thousands, and joined a small elite. Welcome. We are the few, the brave, the non-buffoons.

    As for the inverse relationship between the deliciousness of food and obesity, you are correct if by delicious food you mean traditional food like roast beef and Yorkshire pudding with roast potatoes and cabbage and gravy made with beef dripping, followed by suet pudding, or rice pudding, or jam roly poly, etc.
     
    This can very well be exactly what I mean. Or at least, I may mean something very much like it.

    It's impossible not to notice that traditional food tastes so much better than modern food. What is a revelation is that this is by DESIGN! And yet we persist in being buffoons.

    The mistake about the need for quantity control rather than composition control arises, I suspect, because there are some people, myself included, who can eat almost any rubbish, including every kind of junk food, ad lib without gaining weight. Such people are often mistakenly credited, or unjustifiably credit themselves, with great self-control of their caloric intake, rather than the reality, which is an exceptional tolerance for junk food.
     
    This is already a confusing comment. The crystal clarity of earlier remarks is giving way to a miasmic illogical swamp, where conclusions do not follow. Buffoonery is reimerging.

    As they likely know, these people can rid themselves of this excess fat simply by cutting out the beer, thus proving that it is the composition of calories consumed, not the quantity, over which one must have control if one is to avoid undue weight gain.
     
    Alas, buffoonery has taken control and routed logic! Cutting out beer is also a reduction in quantity of consumption, so nothing is proved! The Spirit of Buffoonery has clouded your vision and led you down a dark path.

    The curious mix of intelligence and buffoonery has thwarted us, once again. Alas.

    I am sorry, but it is the obtunditude of the reader that is the problem, not the author’s lack of crystal clarity.

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  • @botazefa

    My hypothesis (not a theory) would say that replacing glucose with sucrose would tend to cause a person to gain weight.
     
    Where, exactly, does one find food/drink products that contain any significant glucose?

    Where, exactly, does one find food/drink products that contain any significant glucose?

    The main dietary source of pure glucose is starch. During digestion starches are hydrolyzed into glucose and maltose (contains two glucose molecules). There are other sources as well. The original formula for Gatorade was sweetened with glucose, but after Pepsi bought the brand, they changed the formula to make it sweeter. On a the hereditary fructose intolerance forum (hfi.proboards.com: now defunct), they used to talk about a candy called pixie sticks made with glucose. This morning I made some limeade from fresh limes (no fructose) and glucose I bought from a local health food store. It tasted great.

    Trade synonyms for glucose include dextrose and corn sugar. Corn syrup contains fructose though.

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    • Replies: @JL

    a candy called pixie sticks
     
    I remember reading on a paleo site once that Sweet Tarts are made exclusively with glucose.
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  • @Anonymous
    Olestra is a fat substitute that adds no fat, calories, or cholesterol to products. The FDA approves almost anything that doesn't cause people to immediately drop dead, so this cure was added to the junk food isle of most grocery stores across the United States and beyond starting in 1996. Proctor and Gamble's Olestra negated the body's ability to absorb essential vitamins while creating laxative like diarrhea. The FDA has kept this fake-fat legal today.

    Moral of the story? The "Government" supports industrial scale production of poison food additives, promotes unhealthy eating and sustains business models that produce billions of dollars in crap food. Industry then promotes quackery, political psuedo-science and political ideology to cover the afformentioned abuse by placing the burden of your own health on you. Your next trip to 7-11 will be covered in bernay's sauce, are you sure you can make the right choices?

    Olestra is a fat substitute that adds no fat, calories, or cholesterol to products. The FDA approves almost anything that doesn’t cause people to immediately drop dead, so this cure was added to the junk food isle of most grocery stores across the United States and beyond starting in 1996.

    The war against fat, meant people had to live either on a diet of meat, which few can afford, or else consume more carbohydrate. Since carbohydrate in the form of sucrose, fructose, glucose, aka dextrose, high fructose syrup, aka glucose plus fructose, and lactose, are all dirt cheap, the food industry happily bulked up their products with sugar (insofar as air, water, salt and artificial colors and flavors were insufficient) hooking millions on an obesity and diabetes inducing diet that is very satisfactorily reducing the life-expectancy of America’s deplorable, unemployed, blue collar Trump-voting white trash.

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  • @CanSpeccy

    you ALL fail Thompson’s IQ test, except for me, who doesn’t believe in IQ tests
     
    It is something, certainly, not to be so stupid as to believe in IQ tests.

    As for the inverse relationship between the deliciousness of food and obesity, you are correct if by delicious food you mean traditional food like roast beef and Yorkshire pudding with roast potatoes and cabbage and gravy made with beef dripping, followed by suet pudding, or rice pudding, or jam roly poly, etc.

    The mistake about the need for quantity control rather than composition control arises, I suspect, because there are some people, myself included, who can eat almost any rubbish, including every kind of junk food, ad lib without gaining weight. Such people are often mistakenly credited, or unjustifiably credit themselves, with great self-control of their caloric intake, rather than the reality, which is an exceptional tolerance for junk food.

    Even those naturally thin people, however, are likely to gain considerable weight, especially during middle age, if they consume considerable quantities of beer, i.e., they will get a beer belly, consisting of a roll or two of fat around the middle. As they likely know, these people can rid themselves of this excess fat simply by cutting out the beer, thus proving that it is the composition of calories consumed, not the quantity, over which one must have control if one is to avoid undue weight gain.

    It is something, certainly, not to be so stupid as to believe in IQ tests.

    It is! And thank you for realizing that. With that one small comment you have elevated yourself above thousands, and joined a small elite. Welcome. We are the few, the brave, the non-buffoons.

    As for the inverse relationship between the deliciousness of food and obesity, you are correct if by delicious food you mean traditional food like roast beef and Yorkshire pudding with roast potatoes and cabbage and gravy made with beef dripping, followed by suet pudding, or rice pudding, or jam roly poly, etc.

    This can very well be exactly what I mean. Or at least, I may mean something very much like it.

    It’s impossible not to notice that traditional food tastes so much better than modern food. What is a revelation is that this is by DESIGN! And yet we persist in being buffoons.

    The mistake about the need for quantity control rather than composition control arises, I suspect, because there are some people, myself included, who can eat almost any rubbish, including every kind of junk food, ad lib without gaining weight. Such people are often mistakenly credited, or unjustifiably credit themselves, with great self-control of their caloric intake, rather than the reality, which is an exceptional tolerance for junk food.

    This is already a confusing comment. The crystal clarity of earlier remarks is giving way to a miasmic illogical swamp, where conclusions do not follow. Buffoonery is reimerging.

    As they likely know, these people can rid themselves of this excess fat simply by cutting out the beer, thus proving that it is the composition of calories consumed, not the quantity, over which one must have control if one is to avoid undue weight gain.

    Alas, buffoonery has taken control and routed logic! Cutting out beer is also a reduction in quantity of consumption, so nothing is proved! The Spirit of Buffoonery has clouded your vision and led you down a dark path.

    The curious mix of intelligence and buffoonery has thwarted us, once again. Alas.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    I am sorry, but it is the obtunditude of the reader that is the problem, not the author's lack of crystal clarity.
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  • @botazefa

    My hypothesis (not a theory) would say that replacing glucose with sucrose would tend to cause a person to gain weight.
     
    Where, exactly, does one find food/drink products that contain any significant glucose?

    Where, exactly, does one find food/drink products that contain any significant glucose?

    Top 10 Foods Highest in Glucose

    Don’t you love them all? That’s why obesity and diabetes have become epidemic.

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    • Replies: @botazefa
    I think that page you are linked to is talking about glycemic index.

    Glucose is manufactured by the body from other sugars in our food.

    My point is, we don't eat glucose.
    , @Hu Mi Yu

    Top 10 Foods Highest in Glucose
     
    Fake news. Honey is about the same thing as corn syrup: Fifty to sixty-four percent fructose and thirty-six to fifty percent glucose in a supersaturated solution with 20% water. Starch has the highest glucose content per weight. It is not even on the list.

    It is the fructose content of the listed foods that is the problem: not the glucose.
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  • @Hu Mi Yu

    I don’t think that a fat person who chooses to replace all his glucose than sucrose will lose a single pound, which seems to be a good way to test your theory.
     
    My hypothesis (not a theory) would say that replacing glucose with sucrose would tend to cause a person to gain weight.

    I reference Dr. Lustig mostly because he agrees that cutting back fructose is important. We do not necessarily agree on every point. I went back to school and studied biochemistry so I could understand the metabolism of sugars. For an introduction you could check the Wikipedia entry for "fructolysis": especially the section titled "Fructose induces hepatic lipogenic enzymes". "Lipogenesis" means "fat creating". Also a web search on "fructose metabolism" should prove enlightening.

    My hypothesis (not a theory) would say that replacing glucose with sucrose would tend to cause a person to gain weight.

    This paper in Diabetes supports your hypothesis, inasmuch as it shows that sucrose causes a greater insulin response than glucose. It also shows, however, that equivalent amounts of starch produce much smaller increases in blood glucose and insulin than any sugar.

    Thus, for diabetics, better than substituting glucose for sucrose would be to eliminate sugar from the diet altogether, replacing it with unrefined sources of carbohydrate such as brown rice, root vegetables, etc., which are digested slowly and thus do not cause blood glucose to spike with detrimental consequences for the machinery of blood sugar control.

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  • @Johan Meyer
    Is the malabsorption of fructose to which you refer fructose caught in fibre, or dissolved fructose? My understanding of Lustig's argument is the fibre-entrapped fructose mainly does give rise to the symptoms described in normal individuals, and that that is a secondary satiety signal.

    Is the malabsorption of fructose to which you refer fructose caught in fibre, or dissolved fructose? My understanding of Lustig’s argument is the fibre-entrapped fructose mainly does give rise to the symptoms described in normal individuals, and that that is a secondary satiety signal.

    Dr. Lustig asserts that fructose caught in fiber (for example apples) is not a problem for normal individuals. I have found that fructose with fiber definitely is a problem for me.

    I am not writing of fructose malabsorption here, but of problems with fructose metabolism. Malaborption is the most common problem with fructose. As in the case of lactose intolerance this indicates that we are not adapted to diets high in it. We have increased .ability to digest starch compared to our early ancestors, and correspondingly we have a reduced ability to metabolize fructose on the average. It varies from individual to individual.

    I haven’t mentioned this so far, but the diet I use is also low in fructans. Fructans are polymers of fructose, just as starches are polymers of glucose. According to accepted wisdom fructans do not digest, and they are classified as fiber. However there is no question they are a problem for me. For one thing I have a contact allergy to nearly all grasses, and grasses contain fructans in their cell walls. The only grain that I have to restrict in my “paleo” diet is barley. After I found this out, I looked it up and found that barley is the grain highest in fructans. Wheat and rice are low, and I can eat these without restriction. However “wheat” bread and even flour are nearly always mixed with barley in the US, so it is difficult to find wheat based products that I can eat.

    Recently I found out that there are also polymers of galactose called galactans. As far as I can tell, the only food that contains them is agar. I have reserved for the future a challenge to see if I can tolerate agar, but I have no desire to be ill again at present.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    Do you know what the prevalence of the ability (breaking down 5 carbon sugar polymers) is?

    Another thing I see is xylose (5 carbon sugar, like fructose) being added to wheat flour (six).
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  • We have to guess Thompson is trying to sell more Complan, a notorious sugary-shit drink now owned by Glaxxo. Folksy country doctors in the US always had a nasty brand name they would lovingly refer to. Tummy got you down? Kaopectate on order. Wee-wee and anxious travel? Hyoscine.

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  • @Hu Mi Yu

    I don’t think that a fat person who chooses to replace all his glucose than sucrose will lose a single pound, which seems to be a good way to test your theory.
     
    My hypothesis (not a theory) would say that replacing glucose with sucrose would tend to cause a person to gain weight.

    I reference Dr. Lustig mostly because he agrees that cutting back fructose is important. We do not necessarily agree on every point. I went back to school and studied biochemistry so I could understand the metabolism of sugars. For an introduction you could check the Wikipedia entry for "fructolysis": especially the section titled "Fructose induces hepatic lipogenic enzymes". "Lipogenesis" means "fat creating". Also a web search on "fructose metabolism" should prove enlightening.

    My hypothesis (not a theory) would say that replacing glucose with sucrose would tend to cause a person to gain weight.

    Where, exactly, does one find food/drink products that contain any significant glucose?

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    Where, exactly, does one find food/drink products that contain any significant glucose?
     
    Top 10 Foods Highest in Glucose

    Don't you love them all? That's why obesity and diabetes have become epidemic.

    , @Hu Mi Yu

    Where, exactly, does one find food/drink products that contain any significant glucose?
     
    The main dietary source of pure glucose is starch. During digestion starches are hydrolyzed into glucose and maltose (contains two glucose molecules). There are other sources as well. The original formula for Gatorade was sweetened with glucose, but after Pepsi bought the brand, they changed the formula to make it sweeter. On a the hereditary fructose intolerance forum (hfi.proboards.com: now defunct), they used to talk about a candy called pixie sticks made with glucose. This morning I made some limeade from fresh limes (no fructose) and glucose I bought from a local health food store. It tasted great.

    Trade synonyms for glucose include dextrose and corn sugar. Corn syrup contains fructose though.
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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Olestra is a fat substitute that adds no fat, calories, or cholesterol to products. The FDA approves almost anything that doesn’t cause people to immediately drop dead, so this cure was added to the junk food isle of most grocery stores across the United States and beyond starting in 1996. Proctor and Gamble’s Olestra negated the body’s ability to absorb essential vitamins while creating laxative like diarrhea. The FDA has kept this fake-fat legal today.

    Moral of the story? The “Government” supports industrial scale production of poison food additives, promotes unhealthy eating and sustains business models that produce billions of dollars in crap food. Industry then promotes quackery, political psuedo-science and political ideology to cover the afformentioned abuse by placing the burden of your own health on you. Your next trip to 7-11 will be covered in bernay’s sauce, are you sure you can make the right choices?

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    Olestra is a fat substitute that adds no fat, calories, or cholesterol to products. The FDA approves almost anything that doesn’t cause people to immediately drop dead, so this cure was added to the junk food isle of most grocery stores across the United States and beyond starting in 1996.
     
    The war against fat, meant people had to live either on a diet of meat, which few can afford, or else consume more carbohydrate. Since carbohydrate in the form of sucrose, fructose, glucose, aka dextrose, high fructose syrup, aka glucose plus fructose, and lactose, are all dirt cheap, the food industry happily bulked up their products with sugar (insofar as air, water, salt and artificial colors and flavors were insufficient) hooking millions on an obesity and diabetes inducing diet that is very satisfactorily reducing the life-expectancy of America's deplorable, unemployed, blue collar Trump-voting white trash.
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  • @Johan Meyer
    That might (or might not) be Hu Mi Yu's argument, but it is not Lustig's general argument, although greater conversion to fat may also occur. Lustig's argument is that fructose absorption into the blood requires the liver to convert the fructose to useable energy (versus glucose which cells can burn without liver interaction), and that that process in the liver leads to suppresses satiety, which then leads to overeating.

    A simple way to test Lustig's argument is to take a meal that would normally satisfy you, but replace 200 calories with e.g. cola/pop or fruit juice (something with water-dissolved fructose), and have the fructose at the end. Are you still saited at the end of the meal? His argument, and my experience, is that one is not, hence the serving of fruit juice and cola/pop by restaurants---greater quantities of food sold.

    If one eats enough glucose in one meal, enough glucose will enter the liver to have the same effect, but the quantity of glucose required is much greate than the quantity of fructose for the same effect.

    Doing my quick research, I see that:

    350g 12oz can of coke: 24g sugars

    150g medium peach: 13g sugars

    Their sugar content is roughly the same. The reason, as you mentioned, is satiation.

    I think skinny alcoholics who are relatively young who have acquired Type II diabetes are interesting. They’ve replaced substantially all of the caloric intake with sugars, aren’t too good at processing other nutrition (gut problems), and yet are not fat.

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