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    Expansion of modern humans out of Africa and within Africa. Mellars (2006). When we discuss the origins of modern humans, the term ‘Out of Africa’ is a bit misleading. Our common ancestors came not from Africa as a whole but from a relatively small area somewhere in East Africa. Beginning around 80,000 years ago, this...
  • @lesigh
    Seriously? I get that this is a white supremacist site where people are so backwards-thinking that they probably think males are smarter than females because of the larger brains on average, but you couldn't even bother to find out that neural connectivity and number of cortical folds matter more than size?

    There's no devolution. Neanderthals had larger brains, yes, but intraspecies brain size comparisons are meaningless unless they are of a very large value (meaning that severe retardation of development has occurred). Size in specific regions can be important, but in those regions (frontal lobe), Neanderthals were inferior. They also had fewer cortical folds, meaning less white matter and connectivity, and smoother but larger brains are less intelligent.

    Groups that exclusively interbred died off, there is no human on this planet that isn’t a hybrid from modern human species mixing with archaic humans species in a pattern that resembles a family tree and and all humans carry genetic mutations from archaic human species that existed well before any modern humans that have been found to have emerged from ethiopia in africa. A mutation in a west african gene is unique as it shows a mutation tied to archaic human species existing well beyond a million years ago.

    The hard pill for you to swallow is that “black people” or “africans” aren’t the first human species to inhabit the earth, black african’s history is just like white european peoples history…..the same just a tiny bit different and older, but not as original as so much misplaced pride would indicate. The oldest skull excavated in Bethlehem is that of a hybrid genetic mixture of modern and archaic humans.

    I didn’t write this to beef with you or correct you, just some food for thought. There is no absolute truth that anyone can crystallize into simple facts, there is only the layers of truth leading to the highest available truth any individual can perceive based on his/her knowledge and intellect at a given point in his/her mental development. Bottom line…..we are all continuously learning and developing from birth to death, and when we stop at some artificial or premature maximum we stop growing and kill off any future of evolutionary development.

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  • I will probably irritate somebody but whatever. Madame Blavatsky wrote of what were referred to as root races and their sub-races(genetic variants), one root race finally receding as another emerged but with a good period of overlap that allowed interaction and which passed DNA for the survival of the newer root race . She learned much of her knowledge of this in India and noted “race” was not meant as it is currently understood and that current humans are all members of the same root race, sprung from a single source. I read a lot on the subject and it doesn’t seem to be such a secret, just a secret hiding in plain sight but which one(self inclined individuals) must take the initiative to look around to see what there really is on the subject from various sources and find some common threads. This seems consistent with nature. If you look backwards its hard to see, look at is a tree in which a main upward reaching branch which represents humans evolution to this point and the trunk our beginning. As the main branch first splits, only one will continue on as the main branch…and our main branch has survived by mixing DNA to pass on mutation beneficial to future survival of humans and isolation and inbreeding are the branches which dead end along the way. Kinda gives meaning to the biblical passages about cutting off the dead branch and casting it into the fire or being cut off from the tree of life. huh?
    I saw a documentary using archaeology and geneticists confirming that humans today are hybrids of as of yet an unknown number of mixtures of human species over millions and perhaps hundreds of millions of years.

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  • @Anonymous
    It sounds like people are finally starting to care more about science then being politically correct. Yes, African's seem to be the original species on earth, that evolved for millions of years, and are still connected to the primates. Is there much variation or evolution from them though? the evolutionary tree seems "on shaky ground" based on a cave they found with 5 homo erectus skeletons with a lot of variety. Found seperately, they all would have been called different species. If we call all in the homo line homo erectus, other then the big brained Neanderthal (brain size being highly connected to IQ) One might say that any before Neanderthal were homo erectus for millians of years. (Not called humans.) So any homo erectus who didn't interbreed with the Neanderthal, would not make cro magnon, called modern man. Those in the Canary Islands are thought to represent pure cro Magnon stock, and they are an obvious mix of white and black. Thus,it fits that is two species mixing started a very primitive modern man like them, that the Neanderthal would be the original modern man, and like the brain size shows, we have de-evolved by interbreeding. . .it is a deep and controversial theory, but I would love some descussion on it. Check out a very indepth and connected theory on the Neanderthal here, http://passionateproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/all-about-hybrid-neanderthal-named-adam.html and one on the homo erectus here. http://passionateproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/all-about-africans-original-earthly.html

    Seriously? I get that this is a white supremacist site where people are so backwards-thinking that they probably think males are smarter than females because of the larger brains on average, but you couldn’t even bother to find out that neural connectivity and number of cortical folds matter more than size?

    There’s no devolution. Neanderthals had larger brains, yes, but intraspecies brain size comparisons are meaningless unless they are of a very large value (meaning that severe retardation of development has occurred). Size in specific regions can be important, but in those regions (frontal lobe), Neanderthals were inferior. They also had fewer cortical folds, meaning less white matter and connectivity, and smoother but larger brains are less intelligent.

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    • Replies: @TJG
    Groups that exclusively interbred died off, there is no human on this planet that isn't a hybrid from modern human species mixing with archaic humans species in a pattern that resembles a family tree and and all humans carry genetic mutations from archaic human species that existed well before any modern humans that have been found to have emerged from ethiopia in africa. A mutation in a west african gene is unique as it shows a mutation tied to archaic human species existing well beyond a million years ago.

    The hard pill for you to swallow is that "black people" or "africans" aren't the first human species to inhabit the earth, black african's history is just like white european peoples history.....the same just a tiny bit different and older, but not as original as so much misplaced pride would indicate. The oldest skull excavated in Bethlehem is that of a hybrid genetic mixture of modern and archaic humans.

    I didn't write this to beef with you or correct you, just some food for thought. There is no absolute truth that anyone can crystallize into simple facts, there is only the layers of truth leading to the highest available truth any individual can perceive based on his/her knowledge and intellect at a given point in his/her mental development. Bottom line.....we are all continuously learning and developing from birth to death, and when we stop at some artificial or premature maximum we stop growing and kill off any future of evolutionary development.
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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    It sounds like people are finally starting to care more about science then being politically correct. Yes, African's seem to be the original species on earth, that evolved for millions of years, and are still connected to the primates. Is there much variation or evolution from them though? the evolutionary tree seems "on shaky ground" based on a cave they found with 5 homo erectus skeletons with a lot of variety. Found seperately, they all would have been called different species. If we call all in the homo line homo erectus, other then the big brained Neanderthal (brain size being highly connected to IQ) One might say that any before Neanderthal were homo erectus for millians of years. (Not called humans.) So any homo erectus who didn't interbreed with the Neanderthal, would not make cro magnon, called modern man. Those in the Canary Islands are thought to represent pure cro Magnon stock, and they are an obvious mix of white and black. Thus,it fits that is two species mixing started a very primitive modern man like them, that the Neanderthal would be the original modern man, and like the brain size shows, we have de-evolved by interbreeding. . .it is a deep and controversial theory, but I would love some descussion on it. Check out a very indepth and connected theory on the Neanderthal here, http://passionateproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/all-about-hybrid-neanderthal-named-adam.html and one on the homo erectus here. http://passionateproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/all-about-africans-original-earthly.html

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    • Replies: @lesigh
    Seriously? I get that this is a white supremacist site where people are so backwards-thinking that they probably think males are smarter than females because of the larger brains on average, but you couldn't even bother to find out that neural connectivity and number of cortical folds matter more than size?

    There's no devolution. Neanderthals had larger brains, yes, but intraspecies brain size comparisons are meaningless unless they are of a very large value (meaning that severe retardation of development has occurred). Size in specific regions can be important, but in those regions (frontal lobe), Neanderthals were inferior. They also had fewer cortical folds, meaning less white matter and connectivity, and smoother but larger brains are less intelligent.
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  • Venus of Willendorf (30,000 – 27,000 BP). Is that a special headdress … or peppercorn hair? (source: Matthias Kabel) Europeans already had blue eyes while still hunter-gatherers. This is what we’ve learned after retrieving ancient DNA from two Mesolithic individuals, one from Luxembourg, dated to 8,000 years ago, and another from Spain, dated to 7,000...
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Newsflash:

    A team of scientists has released a forensic reconstruction of a Mesolithic hunter-gatherer from La Brana, Spain, who also appears to have had blue eyes and brown skin. You can find in on Dienekes' website.

    The face looks unmistakably European. If anything, it looks like a rugged Northern Euro more than a typical person from the Mediterranean.

    In the bald-headed version, he almost looks like Richard Armitage (Deputy Secretary of State under George W. Bush) if he fell asleep on the beach.

    What the evidence seems to suggest is that European cranial and facial traits arose long before typical modern European pigmentation. This is not surprising, as morphology depends on a more complex suite of genes. So the discovery that Mesolithic hunter-gatherers were still pretty dark-complexioned doesn't automatically substantiate the much more tenuous claims of "Negroid" or "Khoisan"-like morphology in various early skeletons – nearly all of which appear to have resulted from sloppy reconstructions and/or active imaginations. Indeed, a study some years ago showed that the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic Euro skulls said to cluster with African or Australian populations do so mainly because they are less complete than other specimens, and thus cannot provide enough metric data points for accurate analysis.

    People in southern India today have very dark brown skin in combination with features little different from West Asian or European peoples. There's no reason to doubt a similar combination could have prevailed over a much wider geographic range in pre-Neolithic times.

    The same caviat, incidently, applies to speculation about Mesolithic Europeans' hair form in the absence of genetic evidence.

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  • "crazy thought: this figure was made by a close relative of the San tribes."

    that's my thought too

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    crazy thought: this figure was made by a close relative of the San tribes. Lots of cave paintings show high lumbar lordosis, steatopygia and the prominent labia minora that accompany this female population. I dont think this figure is much exaggerated, so I think it's definitely hair, not a cap.

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  • Bored now.

    43%

    Just imagine how many people would have been helped by race – oops – population based medicine if it hadn't been made taboo by the blank slate nonsense.

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  • I'm discussing the "ordinary" concept of race. Instead you are changing the definition.

    You're doing exactly what Sarich and Miele (2004) resorted to when they were cornered. Suddenly "race realism" becomes defining any local population (down to a city or village) as a "race", and so according to them the population from Athens and Copenhagen are seperate "races". Really? Yet throughout the rest of their works they contradict themselves talking of a "White" or "Caucasoid" clustering Europeans together as the "ordinary" concept does. Funny that…

    Like Glasgow (2009) says:

    "But their central and explicit aim is to vindicate the ordinary concept of race, and so they cannot soundly replace ordinary race-talk with some other kind of talk."

    You are doing the exact same here.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    It's entirely tenable.

    You're arguing against a very narrow definition of the word "race." "Race" was also used historically in an exactly analogous way to the way you're using the word "population."

    This is because the blank slate nonsense priests are being forced to retreat from their nonsense ideology – which if you recall was how genetics didn't matter – and are arguing over the terminology of their retreat.

    But anyway, *43%*

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  • I said *race* has no predictive value whatsoever and that no inferences can be drawn from old race concepts, not populations.

    "Races" and populations are not the same. Even Howells who once maintained races were "real" realized this eventually:

    "There are no races, only populations." (Howells, 1995)

    A (breeding) population can be as small as a local tribe, or a village. As Zack (2002) therefore points out if "races = populations" are Northern Irish Protestants a race? Glasgow even adds Amish and "economic classes" such as peasants in Romania to this list.

    See also the "mismatch objection" in Glasgow (2009).

    "For example, Sarich and Miele (2004, 172) judge that the Dogon, Teita, and Bushmen (their terms) are distinctive races, as are people from Athens and
    Copenhagen (p. 210), but most of these groups don’t seem to qualify as races as ordinarily conceived (presumably at least in part because these groups do not have readily identifiable distinctive visible traits). Of course, Sarich and Miele are entitled to use
    the word “race” however they want. But their central and explicit aim is to vindicate the ordinary concept of race, and so they cannot soundly replace ordinary race-talk with some other kind of talk."

    Conclusion:

    "Breeding populations
    either sufficiently match ordinary racial classifications or they do not. If they do not, then populationism falls to the Mismatch Objection. If
    they do, then populationism falls to the Arbitrariness Objection".

    Your position is not tenable.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    @Oliver

    "The drug you posted while "specifically indicated" for African-Americans which it works better for, is not indicated or effective for Sub-Saharan Africans who in folk race concepts are considered "Black" like African-Americans."

    Has it been tested on SSA? If not it won't be specifically indicated for them.

    Your point was that "race" or "population" has no predictive value. It has immense predictive value (depending on how it is defined).

    .

    "African-Americans are not a "race" but a population."

    You're quibbling with a specific definition of race. Historically "race" was often used in an exactly analogous way to "population" referring to populations sub-populations, and even family lines but a very specific definition was used for a brief period of time and that definition is what you are arguing against.

    .

    "So are you now saying African-Americans are not "Black" and are a seperate race to Sub-Saharan Africans?"

    Duh, obviously – same as most regional African groups are different "races" if you use a sensible definition of race i.e. population.

    I agree the historical baggage makes population a better choice of word but if you go around saying race can't predict anything then other people don't know if you mean population *can* predict and (a particular definition of) race *can't* predict or if you're just some blank slate spazz denying genetics.

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  • "Yeah it does."

    African-Americans are not a "race" but a population.

    The drug you posted while "specifically indicated" for African-Americans which it works better for, is not indicated or effective for Sub-Saharan Africans who in folk race concepts are considered "Black" like African-Americans.

    So are you now saying African-Americans are not "Black" and are a seperate race to Sub-Saharan Africans?

    Thanks for proving my point. You obviously haven't given this much thought.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Just to go back to the earlier point it seems to me multiple "Out Of" events make the most sense because there's no need for a population to evolve if it's already adapted to its local environment.

    Assume evolution is
    1) a constant stream of random mistakes
    2) selection pressure from the environment molding those mistakes in an adaptive direction for that region

    If a population A is already reasonably well adapted to region A then there's low selection pressure. The population will still generate lots of random mistakes but there's little or no pressure to *shape* those mistakes in any specific direction.

    The population that will change will be the population that moves from A into a different selective environment.

    So some of A move into region B and become adapted to B.

    Then some of B move into region C and become adapted to C.

    It's these *new* populations that are created by adapting to selective pressure in these new environments who can develop advantages which allow them to have their own "Out Of" event whether it's Out of Arabia or Out of India or wherever.

    .

    So a "C" population spreads around the globe and one segment arrives in a region with a very similar environment to the one they were originally from – even if many thousands of miles away – then they won't need to change much. Whereas a C type population which arrives somewhere very different to the origin would change a lot – maybe into D – and then D could become the new origin for an "Out Of" event which ends up swamping most of C (but not completely).

    So the D population spreads almost everywhere C had spread and one segment in a particular develops further into a population E with an advantage and then E has an "Out Of" event that spreads E and swamping D (but not everywhere).

    etc

    The swamping becoming more regional than global over time as populations specialize to their regional niche.

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  • Although I do think "population" is a more useful term as it scales better i.e. there will be "racial" differences within the same race due to having lived in different regions.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    @Oliver

    "Race" in contrast isn't limited to a single variable, and has no power to predict anything."

    Yeah it does.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isosorbide_dinitrate/hydralazine

    "It is the first race-based prescription drug in the United States."

    "The clinical trial was stopped early because the drug worked so well; it reduced mortality by 43%"

    43%

    Race in the past was used to label discrete boxes whereas because race is a geographical construct it by definition must have fuzzy edges but "race" would predict a great deal relevant to anything that had been geographically constructed e.g. health, medicine, diet etc.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    @Seeba
    "Unmixed EEF was an ancestral WHG-like population that got mixed with basal eurasians."

    Yes,

    EEF = Basal Eurasian + WHG

    (or WHG-like)

    .

    "Genetic diversity is higher in Middle east and is ancestral home to haplogroup I*, not other way around."

    Sure, Europeans didn't spawn out of the ice (although that would have been cool) and all the DNA came from somewhere else at some time or another but the historical question is what proportions came at which time.

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  • "There are no tall people, only clines."

    I know that was sarcasm, but its not the same. Height is a single dimension. "Tall" as a conceptual category is limited to a single variable. While it is still arbitrary (are 5ft 11 people "tall" or 6 ft 3?, where does "tall" begin? etc) inferences can actually be drawn. "Race" in contrast isn't limited to a single variable, and has no power to predict anything. That's why it was abandoned for the single trait approach or clines from the 60's.

    "Race" has been defined via blood groups, craniometry, skin colour, DNA – the list is extensive. Using those different criteria produces different racial classifications.

    http://discovermagazine.com/1994/nov/racewithoutcolor444#.UtyxT9LFLGg

    "As classified by antimalarial genes (or their absence), Swedes are grouped with Xhosas but not with Italians or Greeks."

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  • Anonymous said…

    Yes it does(EEF has WHG admixture).

    Unmixed EEF was an ancestral WHG-like population that got mixed with basal eurasians. Genetic diversity is higher in Middle east and is ancestral home to haplogroup I*, not other way around.

    You have to keep yourself updated very quickly, because there's more additional information being added. so revise your older information. Less and Less Euopean-like middle-eastern populations are starting to look-like.

    Anyways You probably won't believe me, but Talk to people like dinekese, razib khan and david from eurogenes if you don't believe me

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    "There are no races, only clines"

    There are no tall people, only clines.

    .

    "The "race" approach to human biodiversity while obsolete is not even accurate or useful…The exception is traits that are selected by climate"

    Yes. The exception is everything to do with climate and geography and everything that flows from climate and geography like diet.

    .

    "The reason I mentioned this above, is because if an Out of Africa event actually occurred, we should expect to find an abundant of skulls with broad nasal bones (Frost's "old phenotype" Khoisans) in Europe. However we don't."

    This makes sense unless it was mostly coastal in which case most of the remains will be under the sea.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    "The brown ancestors of Europeans were probably Caucasoid Middle Easterns, or Indians (North-Central-South Asia)… The "out of Africa" theory doesn't sit right with me."

    Out of Africa and Out of India (or Arabia or wherever) aren't inconsistent.

    1. Tropics (A)

    2. Out of the tropics (B)

    3. Out of Africa (C)

    4. C spreads around the globe along the coasts

    5. As race is a geographical construct each segment of C now separately evolves to suit the geographical region they ended up in creating populations D, E, F etc in Arabia, India, SE Asia etc and the more successful of these new populations expand *swamping* those bits of C that were less successful – except in refuges like Guinea and Australia.

    6. So C initially spreads everywhere outside of Africa but gets swamped later by regionally evolved D, E and F ending with C almost nowhere except the most remote spots.

    '

    (nb A, B C etc here aren't haplogroups just labels – although if correct the same idea might apply to haplogroups.)

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  • "EEF has no WHG admixture"

    Yes it does.

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  • barak said: EEF is based on Stuttgart and Otzi both had significant Loschbour related ancestry, it was estimated they had I think around 61-90% near eastern related ancestry. So many Europeans actually probably have majority Loschbour related ancestry.

    WHG And ANE are both extinct today as pure groups, but thats not the same for EEF. There is no need to worry to about perfect EEF proxy because average near-easterns and several north-africans are still living example of EEF.

    Also you saying many Europeans actually may probably have majority Loschbour related ancestry, just means you are unsure yourself. So unless proven othervice I will keep believing the writing on the wall.

    And finally extreme east & north only has a slightly little amount of WHG over EEF. Still being 40 to 50% WHG blood will only mean they no more than half-breeds at best.

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  • Also There are 3 things barakobama should consider:

    1) If go by modern statistics, then brown hair and blue eyes should be most common in stong-age western/central europeans. Skin colour is the only things that is surprising, but they truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. pale features may remained a small minorities in stong-age western/central europeans.

    2) Also todays highest rate of blonde hair is found in north-east europe. we don't know whether hunters or farmers are responsible light hair in these eastern europe area, but east was last major migration source of late neolithic for rest of europe.

    3) If For him studying pre-european
    skulls means not looking up information about the subject, but rather going to exhibits to see artist reconstructions of ancient human skeletal remains. Well then i will pass his personal advice of they all had typically Caucasian features.

    look how the artist reconstructions of neanderthals changed from ape-men of the past to modern european look-like, just because past prejudice have been overcome with simple-minded political correctness.

    http://drpinna.com/neanderthals-oldest-europeans-31059/neanderthal-adult-male

    http://www.hannah-holmes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/eyzies-musecc81e-la_ferrassie.jpg

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  • Anonymous said EEF has WHG admixture.

    Now I see why anonymous was confused about modern Sicilians being 50% Loschbaur related, because all These new labels are confusing him.

    EEF has no WHG admixture, basically ancient & modern middle-easterns don't carry any european mesolithic admixture. Though stuttgart neolithic individual had both EEF and WHG mixture, maybe this is the reason for the mistake for some people.

    Plus Many of researchers where only implying that EEF was once pure strain and ancestral to WHG very long ago before mixing with basal eurasians. But pure EFF & WHG already became two divergent populations even before mixing with basal eurasians and farming began much later in middle-east.

    In the end this brings us right back to where we started, and that is modern europeans have predominantly near-eastern ancestry.

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  • The brown ancestors of Europeans were probably Caucasoid Middle Easterns, or Indians (North-Central-South Asia).

    The "out of Africa" theory doesn't sit right with me.

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  • Anonymous: If you're talking about Howells or modern science then you should drop terms like "Caucasoid" which have no biological basis.

    Howells, like Joseph Birdsell during his later years changed his position to denying races exist. In response to Livingstone's often-quoted: "There are no races, only clines" Howells remarked in 1995 that: "There are no races, only populations". Instead of studying traits independently like Livingstone, Howells still used multivariate population analyses through to the late 90s. However he cautioned that populations are not races (which they aren't).

    The "race" approach to human biodiversity while obsolete is not even accurate or useful. This is because it actually obscures variation by clustering, when nearly all traits are discordant. The exception is traits that are selected by climate – which there is an actual geographical patterning to with delimitation. It is more though accurate to just discuss traits independently.

    The shape of the nose is one of the few skeletal traits selected by climate (Thomson's nose rule). The reason I mentioned this above, is because if an Out of Africa event actually occurred, we should expect to find an abundant of skulls with broad nasal bones (Frost's "old phenotype" Khoisans) in Europe. However we don't. This why narrow[er] nasal bones, has long appeared on Multiregional trait-continuity lists since Frayer (1993).

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    "If your "old phenotype" Europeans looked like Khoisans, where are the fossils with broad nasal aperture?"

    Well I'm not expert enough to join in but I will anyway. If for the sake of argument early out of Africa was coastal then most of the evidence in Europe since the end of the LGM will be under the sea.

    .

    ""The continued enthusiasm for finding an identifiable sub-Saharan African cradle for the origin of all ‘modern’ human form, then owes more to the Judaeo-Christian faith in the traditions of a Garden of Eden than it does to anything that can be called science”."

    It seems most likely to me that early humans evolved in the tropics – which limits the possible options. However that is just the first step.

    I don't think the big step was Out of *Africa* it was out of the tropics but the population that did that and separated themselves from tropical Africans have been swamped in the interim by back migrations into North and East Africa and the Bantu Expansion most everywhere else except the South.

    However *subsequent* to that first wave, humans further evolved in many different regions and in some cases where this led to an advantage they expanded out again in multiple directions so the idea of a single-direction tree diagram is wrong (except the first few branches.

    For example

    first step is out of the tropics by one population creating the first big division

    first wave out of Africa by this population spreads everywhere coastal like scattering seeds

    as these OOA seeds settle in various regions they evolve further and those that develop an advantage expand out again in various directions often swamping other OOA seeds that were less successful.

    rinse and repeat

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  • The Khoesanoids are a specialised Kalahari stock, not really what I would expect the LCA of modern humans to look like although in fairness Coon did provide plates of people in North Africa who look like Bushmen.

    Though Grimaldi is problematic, Peter quoted Boule and Vallois that certain living people still possess similar traits. Although unfortunately I presume that the sources quoted by Boule and Vallois would be near-impossible to trace. I someone could post examples of these living people it should be interesting.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Glad somebody brought Howells' data into the discussion.

    Leaving aside the pigmentation question, the fact remains that most of the physical reconstructions of Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europeans look like the more robust modern Caucasoid phenotypes. To the extent that they look exotic, it's often more in an "Asian" or "Native American" direction – think Charles Bronson's phenotype – than an "African" one.

    There was always a tendency among some physical anthropologists to delineate the presence of multiple races or populations based on subtle variations or improper reconstructions. Just like Grimaldi was said to show "Negroid" traits, the Chancellade skeleton was initially described as "Eskimo"-like. In a similar vein, Franz Weidenreich famously described three early modern skulls from the same site near Beijing as resembling an Ainu, an Eskimo, and a Melanesian, respectively. Yet, Howells reexamined these skulls and deduced that all three most anticipated Native Americans. Occam's razor would seems to be on Howells' side both in the European and Asian cases.

    The same caution applies to Richard Neave's interpretation of the Romanian early modern skull found in 2007. The reconstruction does indeed look a bit Khoisan-like. But the nasal aperture on the skull itself looks much too narrow to sustain so wide a nose in the flesh.

    Preconceptions on the part of the scientist can clearly tilt the results of such an inquiry one way or another. The best way to clarify how different the Pestera cu Oase and other alleged outliers really looked would be for the same scientist to reconstruct all the well-preserved Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic European faces using the same method. If this resulted in revising the interpretation of the Cro-Magnon phenotype in the direction of the Romanian early modern, this might strengthen the case for a dramatically more plesiomorphic (i.e. pseudo-African) phenotype in old Europe. But I think it would more likely result in the revision of Pestera in the conventional Cro-Magnon direction.

    There is an outside chance that Europe was peopled by different early modern populations with very different phenotypes. Thus, Pestera might represent a more morphologically conservative population originating in the Levant or North Africa, while the more familiar Cro-Magnon type came across the cold steppes from Central Asia. Any genetic evidence for multiple source populations?

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    EEF has WHG admixture and ANE/WHG are closely related. The labels are confusing people.

    I was the original anonymous and yes, this is essentially the way the math works out.

    Icelandic gets WHG ancestry through both its EEF fraction and WHG fraction. These team up to edge out other Europeans in terms of level of WHG.

    Of course, Northeast Europeans do have more ANE+WHG ancestry.

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  • Combe Capelle is Holocene, not Upper Palaeolithic.

    Frost completely ignores continuity in skeletal features that span the Middle and Lower Pleistocene in Europe, through to UP and Holocene. These question not only his "old phenotype European Khoisan" theory but Out of Africa itself. You then suffer from the fact no objective definition for "anatomically modern human" exists in the first place.

    As C. Loring Brace wrote: "The continued enthusiasm for finding an identifiable sub-Saharan African cradle for the origin of all ‘modern’ human form, then owes more to the Judaeo-Christian faith in the traditions of a Garden of Eden than it does to anything that can be called science”.

    "Evo and Proud" really? The whole model Frost brings into nearly all his posts is the dogmatic extreme African "Eve" replacement model which has more in common with creationism than evolution as Brace has long noted. This is why Frost is reduced to a ridiculous time-frame where as recent as 15,000 BP there were "old Europeans" who looked like Khoisans walking around in Europe.

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  • There were quite a few evolutionarily conservative specimens around in the Mesolithic. Combe-Capelle had a skull that was very thick walled and dolichocephalic.

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  • Frost, I can easily debunk your views with nasal index. If your "old phenotype" Europeans looked like Khoisans, where are the fossils with broad nasal aperture?

    Upper Palaeolithic European fossils are overwhelmingly narrow or narrowish nosed. I have a near complete list of nasal indices, but Howells who compiled a skull bank also had access to the measurements; as he summarized:

    "Cro-Magnons were already racially European… this has always been accepted because of the general appearance of the skulls: straight faces, narrow noses, and so forth." (Howells, 1997)

    Howells clarifies he is using the term "Cro-Magnon" for UP Europeans from 40,000 BP.

    While no one denies gene-flow between prehistoric Europeans and Africans, there remains zero paleo-anthropological evidence for your "European old phenotype Khoisan" Upper Paleolithic view. Non-surprisingly your only sources are incredibly outdated and obsolete typologists (Boule, Fleure etc), while quoting selective sources (confirmation bias) like how you failed to mention how the Grimaldi were disfigured post-mortem.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    barak
    "Anonymous how do you know Icelandic's have 67% Loschbour related ancestry? In the WHG, EEF, and ANE test the highest WHG were Estonians at around 49%, there was a north Sami I read who had 51% but I couldn't find those results on the study."

    EEF has WHG admixture and ANE/WHG are closely related. The labels are confusing people.

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  • "If we're talking about a copper shade like that of North American Indians or Inuit, I think it's quite plausible."

    That's what I was wondering. If the Hyperboreans extended all the way to the Americas then did they have the same colouring or did Amerindians get that elsewhere.

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  • Anon,

    Loschbour was very dark-skinned. By way of comparison, Razib Khan has some of the alleles for white European skin. Loschbour has none of them.

    One might argue that Loschbour had other alleles at other loci that made him pale-skinned, but why, then, is this alternate genetic change completely absent today, whereas blue eyes are still quite common?

    Bones and Behavior,

    The references you want are in the same textbook. I wasn't referring only to Grimaldi Man.

    Anon,

    I'm wary of all diet fads. A big problem is that different human populations have evolved differently for different diets, so it's impossible to give a single opinion that fits all people.

    Oliver,

    A lot of people get hot under the collar about Grimaldi Man. In my opinion, the reconstruction was not faulty. In any case, how would a faulty reconstruction of the face explain the African-like dentition? Also, we see the same dental traits in many other early European skeletons.

    Again, the word "African" seems to be a big stumbling block for some people. Let's talk instead of traits that are evolutionarily conservative.

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  • I believe here were direct maternal line descendants of Cheddar man, among 20 people tested in the nearest village. That does not prove anything, but would be a remarkable coincidence if there is as little continuity as some are suggesting.

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  • Look! Their heelbones projected more than a little.

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  • Frost, stop posting nonsense and do some research…

    The Grimaldi skulls were post-mortem crushed and poorly reconstructed. Verneau (1906) who first described the skulls noted:
    "subi quelques détériorations et une certaine déformations…de la deformation posthume de la face(s)” meaning posthumous deformities.

    "[Posthumous] pressure chiefly affected the facial skeleton by driving the sub-nasal parts of the maxillae together" (Morant, 1930)

    Stringer and Wolpoff have also pointed out:

    "the great alveolar prognathism of the juvenile is now recognized to have been an artefact of a very faulty reconstruction” (Wolpoff, 1980)

    "some, but not all, of the relevant characteristics can be attributed to a poor reconstruction" – Stringer et al. (1984)

    Once the skulls were properly reconstructed by Morant they were shown to have narrow nasal breadth and no prognathism (the aveolar prognathism and nasal widening was down to the pressure warping!).

    Even Hooton (1946) a typology-dinosaur has a chapter called something like "Grimaldi – Not Negroid" in his shoddy book. So even discredited race theorists from decades back knew the "Grimaldi = Negroid" was a load of baloney.

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  • This is my opinion on the history of pigmentation in humanity(of course only talking about us not another breed).

    The first humans had black skin, black hair, and brown eyes(maybe some variation). Like modern sub Saharan Africans and some east Eurasians.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=kz97h6-J_yq5GM&tbnid=-CgBLo9VBm1xPM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.survivalinternational.org%2Ftribes%2Fpapuan&ei=1GDXUqfCIMidqQGq_4HYDg&bvm=bv.59568121,d.aWM&psig=AFQjCNEtUyQZQbBYzgUt0hhBQuQZI_jMfw&ust=1389933133668520

    Brownish skin developed in non Africans possibly separate in west Eurasians and east Eurasians. Some east Eurasians kept the ancestral black skin and nappy hair.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=Ksq17gP-zj1T5M&tbnid=IrIDlI2LlwY6qM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonlyhdwallpapers.com%2Fhigh-definition-wallpaper%2Fnative-americans-desktop-hd-wallpaper-232593%2F&ei=OWHXUobBC8LXrQGDkYCwDw&bvm=bv.59568121,d.aWM&psig=AFQjCNHb-iG2kNYeRMeXNSEK0YX6VS8tkA&ust=1389933234680844

    West Eurasians developed a lighter shade of brown and also brown hair. All those so called light skin genes have existed in the near east for at least 20,000 years. Extremely light features in skin, hair, and eye color began in the near east possibly over 30,000 years ago and remained as small minorities.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=So6YxbhfuqDRtM&tbnid=L7-jtYPeGH0WqM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2F2010%2Fdec%2F29%2Frabbis-wives-israeli-women-arabs&ei=_WDXUt7pIYeFrQGm9YCoBg&bvm=bv.59568121,d.aWM&psig=AFQjCNGmHPietj8_iCx_yKt_KWMIq7qUFg&ust=1389933175110449

    Light skin developed separately in east Asians and west Eurasian, and east Asians kept black hair and brown eyes.

    Upper Palaeolithic Europeans who were descended of some of the earliest humans in Europe became dominated by pale features that remained as small minorities in their near eastern relatives. This depigmentation occurred well over 10,000 years ago.

    http://www.google.com/imgres?biw=1024&bih=651&tbm=isch&tbnid=7F3tmLkkn_UmFM%3A&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Farticles.chicagotribune.com%2F2013-03-20%2Fentertainment%2Fchi-field-museum-lascaux-20130319_1_field-museum-lascaux-ii-cave-paintings&docid=D0ZAIUJHN1Q7dM&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trbimg.com%2Fimg-5148e605%2Fturbine%2Fchi-field-museum-stone-age-20130319-001%2F600%2F600x338&w=600&h=338&ei=oWHXUr-HKo-qqAHMv4HQDQ&zoom=1&ved=0CFkQhBwwAA&iact=rc&dur=1200&page=1&start=0&ndsp=12

    Mesolithic Europeans would have all probably been pale skinned, and had decent amounts of light eyes and hair. The near eastern farmers that took most of Europe during the Neolithic would have been the same in pigmentation as modern near easterns but after mixing with hunter gatherers they lightened.

    Very high amounts of light hair and eyes and also very pale skin may have been unique though to some Mesolithic Europeans if any of them it was probably far eastern ones. It is possible those feature became more dominate after they mixed with near eastern farmers. Extreme paleness may have been rapidly spread from far eastern Europe with Indo European and Uralic languages during the metal ages.

    If this is still the subject I have nothing else to say, I have posted the samething to many times.

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  • Peter you should look at the stats, blue eyes correlate with light hair and skin. No one would argue the "blue eye" gene found in Loschbour and La Brana-1 is connected with the same blue eye gene that dominates many parts of Europe today(happen to also have the highest WHG ancestry). So Mesolithic Europeans go by the same rules in correlation with eye and hair color as modern. There is really no way any had high amounts of blue eyes and also dark skin and mainly black hair. I don't argue blue eyes cant coexist with dark skin but its very rare.

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  • Seeba, there are areas in far northern Europe and parts of eastern Europe where WHG is higher than EEF. EEF is based on Stuttgart(7,500ybp farmer, Germany, LBK culture) and Otzi(5,3000 year old early copper age farmer, northern Italian alps) both had significant Loschbour related ancestry, it was estimated they had I think around 61-90% near eastern related ancestry. So many Europeans actually probably have majority Loschbour related ancestry.

    Today Sardinians are very very close to Stuttgart and Otzi, overall southern Europeans are most related to them(and a farmer from Neolithic Sweden). southern Europeans have very low amounts of blue eyes, light hair, and have the darkest skin in Europe(they are known as olive). If people say Mesolithic Europeans had dark skin that goes against all the evidence. It is like saying blue was green 10,000 years ago. There had to be major population changes and pigmentation change during the Neolithic and a lot of other things to explain this.

    For the skull shape thing you should study a little on pre Neolithic Europeans I am pretty sure most had Caucasian skull shapes. I went and saw the Lascux exhibit that was travelling around the world. They had many reconstructions of human skeletal remains and all had typically Caucasian features. There were quite a few though(only females) who had very wide faces and noses, I have heard women naturally have wider faces though. The people of west Europe at that time were probably the ancestors of Loschbour(or of his general group) I though the reconstruction where to pale till I learned La Brana-1 and Loschbour probably had blue eyes. Most of the reconstructions had blue eyes and in-between dark and light hair. The reconstructions had their own look, they may have been very accurate.

    http://www.timeoutchicago.com/things-to-do/this-week-in-chicago/16127696/%E2%80%9Cscenes-from-the-stone-age-the-cave-paintings-of-lascaux%E2%80%9D

    http://www.timeoutchicago.com/things-to-do/this-week-in-chicago/16127696/%E2%80%9Cscenes-from-the-stone-age-the-cave-paintings-of-lascaux%E2%80%9D

    http://www.timeoutchicago.com/things-to-do/this-week-in-chicago/16127696/%E2%80%9Cscenes-from-the-stone-age-the-cave-paintings-of-lascaux%E2%80%9D

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=ktcJUN2kPql5iM&tbnid=bJ-Ow1-m3f9hBM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fchicagotonight.wttw.com%2F2013%2F03%2F21%2Fstone-age-chicago&ei=i1nXUveDA8qsqQGlr4HICQ&bvm=bv.59568121,d.aWM&psig=AFQjCNF-nQRvOEjN7kk6AlAhSq6kLhVSXg&ust=1389931235890289

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  • Anonymous how do you know Icelandic's have 67% Loschbour related ancestry? In the WHG, EEF, and ANE test the highest WHG were Estonians at around 49%, there was a north Sami I read who had 51% but I couldn't find those results on the study.

    I looked back at SNP's associated with pigmentation in Loschbour. I think he most likely had blue eyes. There was one SNP associated with blue eyes rs12913832 and he had the right alleles G,G. I read on SNPedia 99% of the people with G,G have blue eyes. Those are the derived alleles of rs12913832 and a study before 2010 estimated the first person with blue eyes lived 6,000-10,000ybp during the Neolithic revolution based only on those alleles. So Loschbour is prove that the G,G alleles existed in pre Neolithic Europeans and the existence of the "blue eye gene" in La Brana-1 is very good evidence the gene is much older than 6,000-10,000 years old and was popular in Mesolithic Europe.

    I highly doubt any Mesolithic Europeans had dark skin. The reason is in the WHG, EEF, and ANE test the only populations to get over 40% WHG all have majority blue eyes, light hair, and I am just assuming are the palest skinned Europeans. All statistics show blue eyed people are much more likely to have light hair than black hair, and populations with high amounts of blue eyed have paler skin than ones with higher amounts of brown eyes.

    This blue eyed and brown skinned(only based on Loschbour) idea for Mesolithic Europeans ignores all of those statistics. Mesolithic Europeans either didn't have blue eyes or didn't have dark skin. There may be many different factors to pale skin in Europe especially in high WHG Europeans that haven't been found.

    The three so called white skin genes are not exclusively European at all. The only that is actually more popular in Europe than west Asia is SNP's alleles in gene SLC45A2, but it still has a strong presence in west Asia. Obviously these white skin genes don't have the same effect on west Asians as on Europeans, meaning there are probably other factors to pale skin in Europe.

    I have only seen age estimates of when some of these pale skin genes became dominate in Europeans(what type many different sources of ancestry) but what about west Asians? obviously by the Neolithic(12,000 years ago) those genes dominated west Asia because Stuttgart and Otzi has results that would be excepted of a modern day European or west Asian.

    The hypothesis blue eyes come from hunter gatherers and light skin from farmers is crazy. Today all paleness hair, skin, and eye color is connected with WHG ancestry. EEF is highest in 'olive", dark haired, and eyed Europeans. Unless there was a radical change in pigmentation for the farmers that are ancestral to light Europeans, the paleness(including skin color) has to be connected with hunter gatherers. All evidence except for Luschbour's probably black hair an missing the three "white" skin genes is leaning towards the paleness in Europe being from the hunter gatherers.

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  • Perhaps a similar selection effect took place as people moved to harsher environments that could bear lower population densities. Parents may have discarded or invested less in darker babies.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    "Black dogs are last to be picked at shelters because of the color of their fur

    Black dogs are euthanized at a much higher rate because they’re less likely to be adopted due to their color
    Stereotypes suggest black dogs are more badly behaved and are violent"

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2538920/Black-dog-syndrome-More-black-dogs-without-homes-color-fur.html

    "Black dogs don't get as adopted as easily as others animals of other colors.

    The reason is largely because of some common misconceptions about them.

    Black dogs are mischaracterized as mean and potentially violent and according to NBC News.

    Black Dog Syndrome is a phenomenon in which dogs with black fur often go unadopted because of misinformed stereotypes.

    Black dogs are are euthanized at a much higher rate than dogs with different complexions.

    Many owners of black dogs say they are sweet, lovable, but also unwanted.

    The chances of being adopted are poor if you're a black dog."

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  • Peter,

    You've warned about the potential dangers of excess Vitamin D supplementation which has become popular recently. What are your thoughts on the "paleo diet" which has also become popular recently?

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  • The Tasmanian Aboriginals do not look 'nearly black', though they were dark skinned. And Peter, I know who the Grimaldi race were, I was more interested in knowing the evidence for the later persistence of Grimaldi racial traits.

    The other day I mentioned Mongoloid origins in Tibet, and subsequent to that I learned there is no strong evidence for significant Europeoid ancestry in a related nation, the Yi.

    Today I discovered that in 1925 the splitter W.P. Pycraft argued against the notion that the Tibetans were mixed and erected a new species Homo himalayensis for a skull labeled 'I'nu Bhotia, Transnivem' in the Hodgson Collection. Because of their skull form and isolation, Pycraft considered them to be 'relics of a relatively pure stock'.

    To Homo himalayensis he attributed as variants the Limbu, Assamese and Ceylonese people, but the type location for the proper type of his species was the Khams province of eastern Tibet. Pycraft traced the Nesiotes (Indonesians) and Paroeans of Hadddon to the Himalayas.

    Although giving these people species rank seems excessive, I can't help but wonder whether the Khams type is close to the first, still dolichocephalic Mongoloid people prior to their self-domestication.

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/2839771

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    With respect to the skin tone of the Luxembourg hunter-gather, exactly how "dark" do these findings imply? How light can human skin be in the absence of either the modern European or East Asian gene variants for lighter hues? If we're talking about a copper shade like that of North American Indians or Inuit, I think it's quite plausible. A medium -brown tone doesn't seem to be an impediment at high latitudes, particularly if people get enough Vitamin D in their diets.

    Darker than would seem unlikely – though the Tasmanian Aborigines did somehow manage to remain nearly black at at a nearly equivalent latitude in the Southern Hemisphere.

    Regarding ancient hair form, I'm not familiar with the genetic research on the origins of straight vs. wavy vs. frizzy types. Has it been definitively proved that the original modern human hair form was like that of sub-Saharan Africans, Andamanese, and New Guineans? If so, is there any evidence as to when and where it changed to straighter variants in most Eurasian populations?

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    And why do West Asians, South Asians and Europeans have many of the same facial features today? Blame it on the invading middle-eastern farmers, and the fact that europeans don't have mesolithic hunter ancestry reaching higher than 40 to 50%.

    The paper where Loschbaur's genome appears gives an estimate that works out to about a high of 67% Loschbaur type ancestry in Icelanders (mediated via European early farmers and direct), and around 17% ancestry that is unique to early european farmers. The remainder is from more Loschbaur like North-Central Eurasians.

    Similar numbers for Sicilians are 50% Loschbaur related and 40% unique to early farmers.

    So there is very little necessarily Mediterranean ancestry in modern Europeans.

    While there may be phenotypical correlates, the degree of Loschbaur related ancestry does not subjectively appear to relate to robusticity very strongly.

    (or even cephalic or facial index very strongly, with brachycephalic and broad faced modern Greeks having low Loschbaur ancestry, narrow faced Brits having high levels and narrow faced Spanish having relatively low levels again, if classical anthropological facial and cephalic index studies have any accuracy at all).

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  • Barak,

    There is no physiological reason why blue eyes cannot co-exist with brown skin. This combination is rare because the alleles for blue eyes don't normally occur in dark-skinned peoples. But it's possible with enough admixture. Google "blue-eyed black man"

    I agree we need ancient DNA from the critical period of 10,000 to 20,000 years ago.

    Bones and behavior,

    Vallois provides detailed data on Grimaldi man in his textbook. It's unfortunate that debate gets bogged down over the term 'Negroid.' If you met these humans, you would assume they were African, perhaps a larger model of the Khoisan phenotype. But if you looked at their DNA, they would cluster most closely with modern Europeans. They were Europeans who had not yet had the sexual selection make-over.

    Juoni,

    There are adoption studies on IQ, but none (I know of) on other mental traits. If I did such a study, I would particularly look at empathy and idealism, i.e., the willingness to submit to the dominant moral narrative.

    Anon,

    "Blondism" in North Africa is much exaggerated. French anthropologists have used "blondism" for any non-black hair color. Even if we use this broad definition, there is no place in North Africa where most people are "blond."

    There are records of Slav mercenaries being stationed on the border between Morocco and Algeria.

    Barak,

    I don't want to argue the point, because I'm sure we'll have more interesting data over the next few months.

    Seeba,

    "Genetics is claiming north europeans are at highest +40% mesolithic hunters". This assumes that the haplotypes in question are selectively neutral. They aren't.

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  • Someone should start a website with photos or drawings of pre-Neolithic skulls online with their measurements.

    Consider this as oversimplified but useful.

    In the west are basal Apinoid people like Cro-Magnon or the people of Iberomaurusian North Africa.

    To their east, lived 'linear' proto-Mediterranean people like Abri Petaud and Mladec.

    Sedentism among the 'lateral' western group led to brachycephalisation prior to the arrival of agriculture or pastoralism.

    The easterners incoming with food production were Mediterraneans and Nordics.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    And why do West Asians, South Asians and Europeans have many of the same facial features today? Blame it on the invading middle-eastern farmers, and the fact that europeans don't have mesolithic hunter ancestry reaching higher than 40 to 50%.

    Carleton Coon described Nordics as "de-pigmented Mediterraneans." That is the skull and facial morphology among Nordics and S. Euros/Mideasterners is basically the same with the difference being skin, hair, and eye coloration.

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  • Genetics is claiming north europeans are at highest +40% mesolithic hunters, so its not a big assumption to say modern Caucasian facial features have a strong connection to near eastern farmers. Also mesolithic european influence is weaker in europe today when comparing to near-east farmers.

    And You are right, DNA is the final answer, which means dark hair and blue eyes combo is most likely a west-european mesolithic trademark(no matter what people may feel about it). Also a person here perviously talked about Carleton Coons work. the funny thing is even Coon said features of stone-age pre-farming Irish, according to him was mostly brown wavy hair and blue eyes(they weren't bunch of blondes). Though Coon maybe not wrong some-what about european hunters have pale skin, freckling and redhair if these traits where carried among a minority.
    ———————————

    Finally according to Carleton Coon pre-farming irish also had:

    1)browridges heavy to medium;
    2)foreheads broad & high;
    3)face was wide & slightly flat;

    4)the whole lower jaw wide and deep, with sometimes tendency towards prognathism;

    5)the nose maybe straight for some people. Though many have concave-profile with a moderately thick upturned tip(r&b singer rihanna has a concave uptured nose).

    add all these with high cheekboned face then you get something close to that of Loschbour's skull

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The skull truly does have an odd, archaic appearance. The only place one sees brow-ridges like those today are among Australian Aborigines. But as recently as 10,000 years ago, they were still to be found in lots of other places – Europe, Africa, Asia, and the earliest people in the Americas. This is probably the main reason why skulls like Luzia from Brazil cluster with Australians and Melanesians in many analyses even though there's little if any evidence of a close genetic affinity between the populations in question.

    The 28,000-year-old Kostienki skull from Ukraine, as reconstructed by Gerasimov, also had this pseudo-Australoid appearance.

    I suspect the advent of food-production did indeed have a major impact of human phenotypes throughout much of the world. Partly through wholesale migration and population replacement, but also peripheral gene flow. Assortative mating may have also hastened the decline of the more robust phenotypes – probably because women with more gracile traits were generally regarded as more attractive.

    There is even evidence that this process has continued right up to the present day. Skulls of 16th-Century Englishmen from the wreck of the "Mary Rose" were found to have heavier brows and lower foreheads on average than their modern descendants.

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  • Seebe Alexander, I have seen Loschbour's skull it is very strange looking for modern humans period. I have seen other Mesolithic and upper Palaeolithic European skulls and their reconstructions all I can remember look like typical Caucasians. It is a whole new subject if you want to study skull shape.

    There is hunter gatherer ancestry in EEF so there are quote a few of Europeans with mainly hunter gatherer ancestry. There is probably no way to give an exact percentage of hunter gatherer ancestry anyways. It is a big assumption to say Caucasian facial features are from near eastern farmers. DNA is the final answer but of course skeletal features help figure things out.

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  • barakobama said that Loschbour hunter aka Luxembourg man didn't have flat nose because flat noses are not an European trait today. I guess people like erika christensen, julia stiles and micky dolenz aren't really europeans then!

    Seriously has people not dare to look at the Loschbour skull at all, before giving their final ultimatum? Looking at Loschbour man's skull or even 2 women found in mesolithic Téviec grave tells us that not only flat noses were more common in mesolithic europeans than today. but european hunters also had one heavy/sharp brow-ridges like found among australian aboriginals and secondly they had flatten faces with high-cheekbones like many east-asians do.

    And why do West Asians, South Asians and Europeans have many of the same facial features today? Blame it on the invading middle-eastern farmers, and the fact that europeans don't have mesolithic hunter ancestry reaching higher than 40 to 50%.

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  • This link gives my full opinion on the subject.

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?109997-Did-Mesolithic-Europeans-have-dark-skin-dark-hair-and-blue-eyes

    All evidence in my opinion besides Luschbour's black(or just dark) hair and possibly dark skin, points to pre Neolithic Europeans being very pale.

    Peter, those age estimates for when Europe became light skinned have a lot of errors. The SNP rs146554 light skin alleles are as popular in west Asians and Europeans, it doesn't=white skin. There should also be an estimate of when it became dominate in west Asians ancestors. The only one of the three that is much more European than west Asian is MATP.

    Otzi and Stuttgart results for those three light skin genes would be excepted of a modern day near eastern and European. It doesn't mean they had light skin or are the source of modern European light skin.

    If blue eyes were popular in Mesolithic Europe so was pale skin and light hair. We cant except to keep finding "brown men with blue eyes" if we do that means they don't have blue eyes or they do and they also have pale skin.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    This evidence is somewhat surprising in light of the fact that many physical anthropologists used to draw a correlation between the survival of rugged, Cro-Magnon-like features and fair pigmentation (particularly reddish hair and freckling). Carleton Coon, for example, identified "Upper Paleolithic survivors" among the Irish, Norwegian, and North African Berber populations as being prevailingly pale and ruddy.

    Of course, all that was before the advent of modern genetic studies. And not all of Coon's hypothesis have withstood the test of time.

    But it does leave hanging the question of why fair features are today found in high frequency among the more rugged,Paleolithic-looking population elements in such widely separated regions as Ireland and the Maghreb. Perhaps it was caused by independent mutations (in which case the prevalence of fog in both Northwest Europe and the Atlas Mountains might account for it). In any event, it's clear that some kind of blondism was present in North Africa by early historical times, because the Ancient Egyptians often depicted their Libyan neighbors as fair, in stark contrast to their own dark red-brown complexion (or the tan hue of the Semitic peoples in Syria and Palestine).

    Anthropometric evidence for an early dark population in Northern Europe seems rather thin and fragmentary. On the other hand, I do recall a photograph – again from Coon's Races of Europe – showing an Irishman who, in addition to being quite brunet, showed significant prognathism. So much so that had he lived in the United States at the time, he might have been suspected of having some distant black ancestry.

    It would very interesting to see a forensic reconstruction of the face of the Luxembourg hunter-gather as the Neolithic German farmer to get a fuller picture of what both looked like in life. My guess would be that the hunter-gather had a broad, heavy face something like baseball legend Babe Ruth, while the farmer would have had more gracile, Mediterranean-like traits.

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  • hunter-fisher-gatherers around the North Sea and the Baltic, would become pre-adapted not only to technological complexity but also to social and economic complexity

    Are there any adoption studies on the subject? Namely any cases where Middle-Eastern or other non-NW-European caucasoid babies had been adopted to NW-European families or vice versa?

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  • Peter, what is the osteological evidence for the claims repeated by Vallois for the persistence of the Grimaldi race? I would like to follow this up.

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  • I really doubt there are population isolates in Europe, that are dark skinned hunter gatherers or hunter gatherer descended. Flate noses are not just a non European trait their a non west Eurasian trait. So there is no way any west Eurasian pre Neolithic Europeans like the Luxemburg man had flat noses.

    If you try to figure out the origin of features in Europe with genetics, it would seem the hunter gatherers would have been very pale skinned, light eyes, and light haired. The skin and hair thing may be wrong but the eye color seems to be true so far.

    Very pale skin, high amount light hair and eyes in the ancestors of central Europeans, northern Europeans, eastern Europeans, and proto Indo Iranian speakers would have developed RAPIDLEY in the metal ages or Neolithic then expanded like crazy. When looking at the genetic relationship between those people that seems impossible. Their main connection is they all speak Indo European, Uralic, and Turkic languages so possibly similar ancestry from eastern Europe. It was reported Yamna people from mainly around the black sea though who were probably early Indo Europeans were darker eyed than most modern Europeans.

    Non west Eurasian and "negroid" facial features in pre Neolithic Europe or anywhere in west Eurasia is surprising. West Asians and south Asians have many of the same facial features as Europeans but have dark skin. It will be very difficult to prove in genetics the hypothesis that there was a old phenotype in areas of Europe that went extinct.

    The Luxemburg very well may mean something that we did not except. There needs to be many other hunter gatherer genomes taken to find if he was just a fluke.

    There is brown skin in my family and I have seen in it in other north-west Europeans. I wonder if brown skinned Europeans lack those alleles like the Luxemburg man.

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  • The results for the Luxemburg man are very surprising. You cant say though that these are the white skin genes, they are about as popular in brown skinned west Asians as in white skinned Europeans. I think their effect on skin color is still debatable. I think it makes skin paler but not much paler there are probably many other factors.

    In my opinion there is no way that the some hunter gatherer populations had a high amount blue eyes but dark skin.

    No one can ignore that today Neolithic ancestry correlates with dark hair, brown eyes, and olive skin but Mesolithic ancestry correlates with light skin, light hair, and light eyes. Two out of two blue eyes hunter gatherers is very good evidence they were pale. No where today in Europe do you see very blue eyed and dark skinned people. I think maybe those so called blue eye alleles in whatever SNP might not always cause blue eyes.

    I also think it is wrong to make the assumption the whitening of European skin occurred between 11,000-19,000ybp. It could have been much longer ago or much more recent, we need ancient DNA to know. Those estimates are based on the alleles of a SNP in the SLC24A5 gene, which is as popular in west Asians. It is not exclusively European and doesn't cause white skin. No one knows the complete cause of European pale skin so the mystery remains of when it started.

    The Luxemburg man's autosomal DNA showed no farmer admixture, farmers were no where close to Luxemburg at that time so the hypothesis he got his blue eyes from farmers can't be correct.

    Now some people are assuming the farmers were pale like Baltics when they were probably as dark as Spaniards. This European phenotype you describe must not count for many southern Europeans. I have never really seen full blooded Iberians, Italians, or Balkaners. I have seen them on TV and I am shocked by how dark they are, brown skin does not seem to be uncommon and even their facial features seem foreign to what eastern and northern Europeans have(more Mesolithic descended). And I have never really seen many full blooded east European(x Balkans) except on TV, and I am always surprised how they look so similar to European people in America but are usually paler.

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  • Expansion of modern humans out of Africa and within Africa. Mellars (2006). When we discuss the origins of modern humans, the term ‘Out of Africa’ is a bit misleading. Our common ancestors came not from Africa as a whole but from a relatively small area somewhere in East Africa. Beginning around 80,000 years ago, this...
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Unknown Sub-Saharan African hominin

    In 2011 Michael Hammer et al. at the University of Arizona studied DNA from two African hunter-gatherer groups, the Biaka Pygmies, the San and the West African agricultural Mandinka people.
    They concluded that roughly 2% of the genetic material found in these modern African populations was inserted into the human genome approximately 35,000 years ago. They also concluded these sequences must have come from a now-extinct member of the Homo genus that broke away from the modern human lineage around 700,000 years ago.

    In 2012 another study was done by Sarah Tishkoff et al. at the University of Pennsylvania. They tested 3 sub-Saharan African populations – Pygmies from Cameroon and the Hadza and Sandawe, both from Tanzania. The team found signs that the ancestors of the hunter-gatherers bred with different species of hominins, probably more than 40,000 years ago

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_human_admixture_with_modern_Homo_sapiens#Unknown_Sub-Saharan_African_hominin

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  • What we FALSIFY here is the strong out-of-Africa hypothesis
    that everyone comes from the same population,” Dr. Paabo

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/07/science/07neanderthal.html?_r=0

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Now they found out an African American man had archaic Y DNA lineage from 338,000 years ago that predates modern homo sapient. What do we make of that? I'm sure more of this will be found in modern humans. I don't like that we get politically correct about science. It does not help anyone and does not help us understand our human journey. According to Cambridge University, Africans were a bunch of different hominids that melted together at times and also mixed with modern homo sapient. It is not true that Africans did not mix with the people of east Africa. Those people went to Eurasia, but also back into Africa never having mixed with Neanderthals. We all have that predominant East African DNA, but then we also have mixed with different hominids.

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  • Superb. I know it well — negroes are not human.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Never ceases to amaze me how liberal zealot college types ignore reality & logic, and look for any tiny piece of evidence to support their 'politically correct' theories. Why does a logically & practical thinking person who disagrees with these rac & evolutionary theories have to be a racist? All your theories are just that…but my thought is based on historical fact. First off, it doean't hurt my 'racist' feelings to know Europeans are not 'pure homo sapiens'…that is simply a word..the facts are pure Africans (homo sapiens) are further back in evolutionary time…you even state that,,,thus, they are physical stronger (closer to apes in time), while pure Europeans (your hybreds) are more intelligent, as they do not need to be physically stronger to adapt…they use technology,,,i.e. intelligence. Nothing complicated here. Early Egyptian civilation was advanced because the upper class were decendents of meditterranean types, Romans were expotentially more advanced than any African culture. Europeans had gun powder, ocean going ships, castles, etc…while the most advance African cultures were basically still in straw hut with spears…and this was well before colonialization. To negate one of your examples,,,Greeks fought among each other, so they had to develope technoilogies is a ridiculous theory, as certainly Africans fought more violently against each other …and still do within their own nation.Call me what you want..you 'sugar coating the reality'…while I am presenting logic with no bias.

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  • "About 13% of the sub-Saharan gene pool comes from an earlier expansion of pre-modern hominins that occurred c. 111,000 years ago"

    What about the remaining 87%.

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  • "About 13% of the sub-Saharan gene pool comes from an earlier expansion of pre-modern hominins that occurred c. 111,000 years ago"

    What about the remaining 87%?

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  • This article is very interesting and seems to disagree with orthodoxy: http://rafonda.com/origin_of_humans.html

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  • Has anyone seen this: http://erectuswalksamongst.us/

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  • School girls in Hunza, Pakistan A few days ago I observed that pseudonymous blogger Dienekes Pontikos seemed intent on throwing as much data and interpretation into the public domain via his Dodecad Ancestry Project as possible. What are the long term implications of this? I know that Dienekes has been cited in the academic literature,...
  • Aryan prehistory is never going to be sorted out satisfactorily. But JP Mallory, “In Search of the Indo-Europeans” provides a clue noting “Aryan warbands did not emerge until the late Bronze age”. The cover of his book is another clue, seen at http://daybrown.org/artifax/artifax.htm because he describes the archer taking a “classic Parthian shot over his shoulder” despite the fact you can see HER left tit- with what every bull dyke knows is a leather plate bra holding the nipple back out of the way. The earlier Aryans were matriarchic, and when they got horses, became Steppe Amazons.
    Which Tamerlane later used as scouts cause they could ride horses further & faster than heavier men.

    Mallory also takes Gimbutas to task debunking her notions of the original Aryan homeland was; both were unaware of Ryan & Pitman’s “Noah’s Flood”, so nobody looked for that homeland on the bottom of what is now the Black Sea. But Ballad’s “Titanic crew” reports structural remains off the coast of Sinop, on the bottom.

    No satisfactory explanation of “proto-Indo-European” can work without considering these two factors. I note PIE is an oxymoron because the original Aryan language was never used in India.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    How does Ryan and Pitman’s hypothesis that the sudden flooding of the Black sea due to the break though at Bosporus Strait circa 5600 BC and subsequent disbursement of the populations around the rapidly expanding lake fit into this discussion?

    Ryan, W.B.F. and Pitman, W.C., III, 1999. Noah’s Flood: The New Scientific Discoveries about the Event That Changed History: New York, Simon and Schuster

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  • Nature profiles Dodecad, the Pickrell Affair, and the emergence of amateur genomicists in a new piece. Interestingly David of BGA is going to try and get something through peer review. In particular, the relationship of Assyrians and Jews. So we have Genomes Unzipped, Dodecad, and BGA. What next? Who next? I hope Dienekes doesn't mind...
  • [...] few days ago I observed that pseudonymous blogger Dienekes Pontikos seemed intent on throwing as much data and [...]

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  • School girls in Hunza, Pakistan A few days ago I observed that pseudonymous blogger Dienekes Pontikos seemed intent on throwing as much data and interpretation into the public domain via his Dodecad Ancestry Project as possible. What are the long term implications of this? I know that Dienekes has been cited in the academic literature,...
  • enough.

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  • Dieneke, as I’ve said time and time again, your profession is always relevant to your blog writings on genetics and anthropology, topic of the thread isn’t important (in fact, I intentionally sent my last series of comments in which I asked you your profession in different threads of your anthropology blog to draw your attention to this fact). In short, my question about your profession wasn’t off-topic (after all, you are the blogger there, not me, and you are blogging on scientific issues). Yes, you self-identified as a dilettante in that thread, but that was an ambiguous self-identification and in an ambiguous way, so I asked you to elaborate further on that and then asked you your profession, but you somehow refrained from publishing my comments in which I asked you your profession. If you published just one of my comments in which I asked you your profession but didn’t answer my question, I would stop asking you your profession (as you don’t have to answer my question) and close the subject; but you didn’t publish any of my those comments so I continued to send them (after all, they weren’t off-topic) until being banned.

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  • i assume that the ‘houston gujarati’ sample is probably mostly technically vaishyas. a huge proportion of american gujaratis are patels or related surnames.

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  • http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/23andme-99-sale.html

    Onur, you decided that the fact that I am an amateur and my professional credentials or lack thereof were relevant to the topic of the 23andMe sale. I don’t know what relevance they could have to the 23andMe sale, but that’s your business. Also, the fact that I self-identify as a dilettante in that very post kinda nullifies your argument that I tried to pass myself as a professional.

    Anyone who reads that thread will see that I told you to use the e-mail address for off-topic material. After you don’t send me e-mail and you continue posting the same off-topic comments that I have to delete, I tell you again to stop spamming and use e-mail for off-topic matter, telling you explicitly that you will be banned otherwise. Nonetheless you continue to post your off-topic questions in my post, and I have no option but to ban you.

    It’s pretty much what happened to this thread. From post #3 you hijacked it, and no one is talking about my theory or Razib’s post on it, but we are all talking about I did this, you did that.

    Here is a nice on-topic paper that came out today and shows the frequency of Y-haplogroup J2a in Eurasia

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-from.html

    I’m not terribly happy with using interpolated surfaces for heterogeneous societies like India, where different castes/languages occupy many spaces, but notice the interesting frequency peak in eastern Anatolia.

    They tested Indo-European tribals from Maharashtra, and they have J2a. It seems that in non-Dravidian India, J2a is not limited to upper castes as it is in South India. That’s kinda similar to what I see with my autosomal data: in South India, J2a is largely Brahmin and the “Dagestan” component is largely Brahmin, but the Gujarati sample (which is Indo-Aryan but not exclusively Brahmin) also possesses it.

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  • discussing the role of amateurs in this sort of stuff is fine. but most of my readers are not interested in why dienekes pontikos banned one individual. in any case, no one will know definitively except for dienekes.

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  • Onur,

    You were banned because you would re-post a 20 line comment, to correct one word – it was obsessive and very annoying to all.

    Conroy,

    Dienekes started to talk about banning me only after I asked him his profession (one of the reasons why I began to suspect that he was trying to hide his profession), and banned me very soon after (further strengthening my suspicions). He never mentioned banning me after my corrective comments; at most he said that he would delete all my previous comments (which he has never done) if I continued that way, but never mentioned banning me, let alone permanently banning me because of them.

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  • Onur,

    You were banned because you would re-post a 20 line comment, to correct one word – it was obsessive and very annoying to all.

    I think Dienekes’ work is awesome and so is Davidski’s, so it doesn’t really concern me whether they have credentials or not, as their work speaks for itself. Also there are many reasons why someone like Dienekes might not want a public identity, such as he might be an academic in another fields of study, or he might be a statistician working in a public capacity for the government or some such – in either case it’s irreverent to the content.

    Getting back on topic, I notice with today’s update that Dienekes is now leaning more towards an Indo-Iranian target for the Dagestani mystery element?!

    Curiously, my wife’s maternal grandmother DOD097 (Sicilian) belongs to mtDNA H13 which is most diverse and frequent among Dagestanis, with a minor element extending Westward on the Mediterranean coast – so another possible expansion route?!

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  • i guess off-topic is what this is. as long as the comments aren’t personal i guess i’ll let it go.

    *shrug*

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  • I’ve had this comment sitting for a couple of days now. First, I thought I’d post it, then I thought Razib would consider it off-topic. Now, I decided again to post it. Although it’s still kinda off-topic.

    Dienekes is a pseudonym, his profession is unknown, sometimes he’s referred to as a pseudo-something (pseudo-anthropologist, pseudo-geneticist, etc.). But in the age of personal genomics do we really need to know people’s names, or people are fine going by their totems, genomes, and clusters and self-organize themselves into Facebook-kind of online communities showing some “science dynamics”? Personally, I’ve never been curious about Dienekes’s profession or his real name. It’s the question for historians, not contemporaries. (He sometimes reminds me of nature-loving German pastor Joachim Neumann who adopted the Graecized name Ne(o)ander which later entered the place-name Neanderthal where the first hominid fossil was finally found. The only difference being that Dienekes is ethnically Greek and not just a Graecophile.) I think he’s a quintessential Internet-age serial entrepreneur: he creates new dating methods, collects genomes and generates novel ideas on regional and global level. In addition to the recent Indo-Aryan theory, he developed an interesting alternative to the out-of-African replacement theory. Since academia is very uptight as to what ideas and data readings are “scientific” and what is the appropriate way to “distribute” those scientific ideas, the rise of Dienekeses is natural and intriguing. Academic “science” has become so regulated, automated, ritualized and stylized that it slowly turns into a hobby that even a “programmer” or a “banker” could do. In the early 1990s, another “amateur” spearheading a different approach to human origins was profiled in the media. http://articles.latimes.com/1993-07-27/local/me-17316_1. In human origins research, there’s a clear need for alternatives, and the Web empowers amateurs, which is good. I think there should be a balance between amateurs and professionals. Amateurs always try to tackle the unknown, professionals tend to confirm the known. What I don’t like is when amateurs pretend that they know more than professionals or recycle professional knowledge as if it were their own or when professionals pretend that there’s nothing else to know. Dienekes is definitely the right kind of amateur.

    As for peer-reviews. I understand people outside of academia think peers always know their stuff. However, science is so fragmented and complex these days that it’s hard to get the right people to review works. Recently, I informally reviewed a paper to appear in Human Biology that had been peer-reviewed before. It contained a big primary source error that pretty much invalidates the application of the Bayesian method to the data. The “peers” had no clue it was there. They just checked the application and the conformity to expectations, but not the data.

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  • Apologizing Razib for going off topic I want to make a last clarification: Part of the reason why I thought Dienekes was a professional in the area was that I interpreted his usual choice of lay language and easy subjects as his intentional personal preference of lay language and easy subjects over academic language and more detailed subjects. Besides, his previous genetic and craniofacial research and writings on mutation rate further misled me to think that he was a professional. I am sorry for my misunderstanding about Dienekes’ profession and academic background for which Dienekes has no fault, all the fault is mine. BTW, I know Dienekes only for the last two-three years.

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  • BTW, Polako is planning to submit his BGA project results to a peer-reviewed journal, it would be nice if Dienekes did the same thing for his Dodecad project results.

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  • Would his Dodecad work withstand academic peer review?

    Good question.

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  • if you thought I was a professional I must’ve been doing something right.

    Well, as a computer/software engineer, I am not in a position to distinguish between a professional and an amateur in genetics, anthropology and biology in general.

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  • Dieneke, your resistance to publish my comments in which I asked you your profession led me to the conclusion that you were trying to hide something. Sorry if I misunderstood you. But I really thought – and still think – my question about your profession wasn’t off-topic in your anthropology blog, so I didn’t have any bad intention when asking you that question in a series of comments (BTW, my last series of comments had nothing to do with my bad habit of corrections, which I have greatly surmounted). Rest assured, I won’t ask you any more questions about your profession, as it is now pretty clear to me that your academic background and profession have nothing to do with genetics, anthropology and biology in general.

    Despite learning that you are an amateur, I still greatly value your efforts to inform people of the latest researches in genetics and anthropology and your own genetic project and experiments. Interpretation of the data you present in your blogs is a totally different thing, so don’t expect from me to evaluate your interpretations with the same value.

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  • An aspect of his model which I do not understand is why it has to be Indo-Aryan, instead of Indo-Iranian

    Indeed.

    There is here a strange pattern of rapid drop off from the Caucasus, and a bounce back very far away, on the margins of Germanic Northwestern Europe. This to me indicates some sort of leapfrog dynamic.

    Well… Germania is directly adjacent to the (Indo-Iranian) Sarmatian range.

    Maybe Dienekes has found where all the Scythians have gone.

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  • onur, you were banned because you flooded the blog with repetitive posts/corrections since the very beginning. In many a post, a reader would be faced with a flood of onur-posts in the comments section. Indeed, I was forced to make my comments moderated in part because of you.

    Nonetheless, despite giving you “final warnings” a couple of times and even giving you instructions on how to prepare and double-check your posts before submitting a flurry of them every time a light-bulb went on in your head, you continued pretty much the same behavior. I nonetheless let you post, because there was some good stuff in what you wrote, and I figured you might have some technical problems/language problems behind your behavior.

    The final straw was when you flaunted my explicit request to send me off-topic material via e-mail several times.

    Your inference that I am a professional in anthropology/genetics has no basis on anything I wrote, as I have never claimed to be a professional. So, if you wanted to imagine things, that’s your business, not mine.

    Thanks for the compliment though, if you thought I was a professional I must’ve been doing something right. And, sorry you think of my work less now that you’ve learned I’m an amateur; personally I don’t care one bit whether someone is a professional or not, I care in what they say/write inasmuch as I can understand it.

    Finally, your suggestion that I was trying to “hide” the fact that I’m an amateur is ridiculous, and is contradicted by the fact that I self-described myself to a Narure reporter as a “dilettante”. Somehow I don’t believe that’s what people who are ashamed of being amateurs do.

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  • I am a computer/software engineer BTW.

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  • Well, at least you have academic background in the area, which is lacking in me, Dienekes and Polako (Polako has a journalist background).

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  • no onur, i’m not. i have academic background in the area, but i’m not a professional by any means.

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  • though honestly it seemed pretty clear to me that dienekes wasn’t a professional.

    Very normal, as you are a professional in those fields, I am not.

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  • dude, let it go :-) we get the picture. though honestly it seemed pretty clear to me that dienekes wasn’t a professional. but then again, i’ve been following his blog since spring of 2003, and his background in computer science seems to have been more well known then.

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  • In fact, I was the very first person who publicly congratulated him for his Dodecad Project when he initiated it two months ago:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/10/dodecad-ancestry-project.html

    BTW, I already knew that Polako (the person behind the BGA Project) was an amateur in the above mentioned fields when I congratulated Dienekes, so I have no problem when such genetic projects come from amateurs. But interpretation of the data is a different issue and requires professional knowledge in genetics and biology in general in order to be really trustworthy.

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  • A last note on Dienekes: My question to Dienekes regarding his profession has absolutely nothing to do with his Dodecad Project or genetic experiments. I asked him his profession one month ago because I learned (from himself) that he was an amateur in genetics, anthropology and biology in general one month ago. If I had learned this info two years ago, I would ask my question two years ago. In fact, I was the very first person who publicly congratulated him for his Dodecad Project when he initiated it two months ago:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/10/dodecad-ancestry-project.html

    Also, of all of his commenters I was probably the one who was the most in agreement with Dienekes’ views (including political views) in his blogs in the English language. I had no problem with Dienekes before my ban and I still have no problem with him. But learning that he is an amateur in the above mentioned fields one month ago (I had already read speculations about that on the Internet many months before but hadn’t taken them seriously until learning from Dienekes himself one month ago that he was an amateur) has significantly shaken my confidence in him in matters relating to genetics, anthropology and biology in general (he probably inhibits talks about his profession in his blogs to counteract losing trustworthiness), and my current opinion of the level of his trustworthiness in those fields certainly wouldn’t be any different if he didn’t ban me.

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  • I love this blog and I’ve been an avid reader for almost year. First comment.

    Judging from the Basque/French analysis, I can see how the “West Asian” component seems to indicate an Indo-European origin. Current theory holds that the Indo-Europeans from the Black Sea area swept through Europe in several waves over thousands of years starting at roughly 4000 bc, if I understand correctly. The population of Europe had already adopted farming via the Middle East at this point.

    So if this West Asian component indicates Indo-European admixture, where is the earlier, Middle-eastern farmer component in the French and Basque? Judging from the way the agricultural Yayoi replaced the Jamon hunter gatherers in Japan, shouldn’t the European genome have a large Middle-Eastern component? Is this West Asian component actually from the first farmers? And if so, perhaps the Indo-Europeans weren’t horsemen but earlier farmers?

    Of course, I’m just a layman so my understanding is not entirely complete. I just have questions.

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