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    Turkish President, Recep Erdoğan won his referendum by a narrow margin last weekend, so Turkish politics will move off in the general direction of Venezuela, though with an Islamic flavor—Erdoğan is a devout Muslim. I respect the Turks for having done a great and remarkable thing in a short time. The old Ottoman Empire was...
  • […] Derbyshire wrote about how the demographics of Turkey have undone Ataturk’s vision for the country, and […]

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  • http://haber.sol.org.tr/toplum/diyarbakirda-gerici-miting-194775

    “Reactionary rally in Diyarbakir” according to Communist site. Diyarbakir is the largest Kurdish city. It is difficult, verging on impossible for the HDP to hold a rally there but Huda-Par have no such problem with the police, even though they are widely considered to be connected to Turkish Hizbullah which is banned (no connection to Shia Hezbollah in Lebanon).

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  • Turkey has high rates of workplace accidents resulting in death. Some years back over 300 mine workers died in the Soma disaster. Erdogan’s answer at the time was classically Muslim – it was the will of God. I suppose it is God’s will that employers should not let safety concerns cut into their profit margins.

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  • https://www.turkishminute.com/2017/04/30/cemevi-on-kurt-decision-killing-a-person-here-gets-a-tl-12100-fine/

    Cemevis are Alevi houses of worship. A man was shot dead by police on the grounds of it some years back. Okmeydani is a neighbourhood of Istanbul with many Alevis and leftists.

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  • https://www.turkishminute.com/2017/04/28/pro-govt-daily-parts-ways-with-pro-erdogan-journalist-ogur/

    Notice how being a pro-Erdogan sycophant doesn’t mean you are above suspicion – he was supposedly a secret No supporter. Paranoid politics in the Pasha’s court…

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  • @Talha
    Hey Ueber,

    Yeah - extreme provicialism will produce this kind of mentality anywhere. Or as one shaykh once stated; for a man who has never eaten outside his home, his mother is the greatest cook in the world.

    Honestly, most people in the world are simple folk and literacy (especially in abundance) is the lot of generally few priviliged and blessed people.

    In my life, I have learned to try to communicate with people at the level of their understanding.

    Peace.

    I alluded to Christopher Marlowe’s work in an earlier post. He was the subject of an English state investigation, among other things for allegedly making statements like “the first beginning of religion was only to keep men in awe” (ie. he was accused of atheism, a dangerous position to hold in the late 16th century). His death in May 1593 in a supposed tavern brawl while the investigation was under way has attracted a good deal of speculation, since the other people present in the room when Marlowe was stabbed, as well as Marlowe himself, are suspected of links to the Elizabethan secret state. (Did he know too much? Was he silenced?)
    Marlowe was, however, well-educated, and the better-educated you are, the more likely you are, as a general rule, to be sceptical about religion. That a Muslim-tinged state like Turkey produces people in authority who will start investigations into Franz Kafka because they have never heard of him, or, as has happened today, taken down Wikipedia’s Turkish-language site, does not surprise me much. Simple people. Religious, simple people. Easy to control. Easy to make them try and control others.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Dear Mr. Derbyshire:

    Ataturk was a butcher who continued the Young Turk genocide against Christian Assyrians, Armenians, and Hellenes.

    There is nothing to admire in him or in present-day Turkey which represses its few remaining Christians.

    We Armenians told you and others what the true nature of Turkey is but you would not listen.

    I think you are all still deaf.

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  • @Uebersetzer
    Further to the preceding, I remember a proverb about the need to beware of people who have only read one book, and this was a case in point.
    I should add that I am equally unimpressed by Christian zealots I have encountered who know the Bible back to front, and apparently nothing else. But I am widely read and expect others to be like me.

    Hey Ueber,

    Yeah – extreme provicialism will produce this kind of mentality anywhere. Or as one shaykh once stated; for a man who has never eaten outside his home, his mother is the greatest cook in the world.

    Honestly, most people in the world are simple folk and literacy (especially in abundance) is the lot of generally few priviliged and blessed people.

    In my life, I have learned to try to communicate with people at the level of their understanding.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    I alluded to Christopher Marlowe's work in an earlier post. He was the subject of an English state investigation, among other things for allegedly making statements like "the first beginning of religion was only to keep men in awe" (ie. he was accused of atheism, a dangerous position to hold in the late 16th century). His death in May 1593 in a supposed tavern brawl while the investigation was under way has attracted a good deal of speculation, since the other people present in the room when Marlowe was stabbed, as well as Marlowe himself, are suspected of links to the Elizabethan secret state. (Did he know too much? Was he silenced?)
    Marlowe was, however, well-educated, and the better-educated you are, the more likely you are, as a general rule, to be sceptical about religion. That a Muslim-tinged state like Turkey produces people in authority who will start investigations into Franz Kafka because they have never heard of him, or, as has happened today, taken down Wikipedia's Turkish-language site, does not surprise me much. Simple people. Religious, simple people. Easy to control. Easy to make them try and control others.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Further to the preceding, I remember a proverb about the need to beware of people who have only read one book, and this was a case in point.
    I should add that I am equally unimpressed by Christian zealots I have encountered who know the Bible back to front, and apparently nothing else. But I am widely read and expect others to be like me.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Ueber,

    Yeah - extreme provicialism will produce this kind of mentality anywhere. Or as one shaykh once stated; for a man who has never eaten outside his home, his mother is the greatest cook in the world.

    Honestly, most people in the world are simple folk and literacy (especially in abundance) is the lot of generally few priviliged and blessed people.

    In my life, I have learned to try to communicate with people at the level of their understanding.

    Peace.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Hey Ueber,

    might not have happened without the invention of printing
     
    Excellent point - excellent analogy! I honestly hadn't thought of that connection. One of the reasons I like engaging with people at UNZ.

    the only worthwhile book was the Koran
     
    I actually believe this to be true depending on the subject at hand. For instance, if one is talking about how God defines Himself or the metaphysical relationship man has with their Maker or the afterlife, then sure.

    If one wants insights into French grammar, best formula for foot deodorant, or how to build a helicopter - then look elsewhere.

    Peace.

    I actually thought it was the statement of a fanatical nitwit reacting to someone obviously more educated than he was (the encounter was in Turkey, and we spoke in Russian – he was from one of the Caucasian nationalities).

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  • @Uebersetzer
    I encountered an IS supporter two years ago, and his viewpoint seemed pretty representative of Islam, or indeed the more "fundamentalist" types of Christianity or Judaism. He said I had obviously read more far books than he had (in fact I could speak his language - he could not speak mine), but this did not matter because the only worthwhile book was the Koran. It really was like the 21st century arguing with the 14th.

    Hey Ueber,

    might not have happened without the invention of printing

    Excellent point – excellent analogy! I honestly hadn’t thought of that connection. One of the reasons I like engaging with people at UNZ.

    the only worthwhile book was the Koran

    I actually believe this to be true depending on the subject at hand. For instance, if one is talking about how God defines Himself or the metaphysical relationship man has with their Maker or the afterlife, then sure.

    If one wants insights into French grammar, best formula for foot deodorant, or how to build a helicopter – then look elsewhere.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    I actually thought it was the statement of a fanatical nitwit reacting to someone obviously more educated than he was (the encounter was in Turkey, and we spoke in Russian - he was from one of the Caucasian nationalities).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @silviosilver

    Normal people understand that someone who is ‘indifferent’ to hypothetically starving 500,000 children in retaliation
     
    The point is that excess deaths are a side-effect worth tolerating in the effort to end the Israeli state's criminally oppressive policies. No one actively wants the excess deaths.

    for a subfraction of the Arab criminal element being inconvenienced is
     
    The entirety of the Palestinian population suffers under Israeli oppression, not merely the freedom fighters (laughably dubbed the "criminal element"). (Worth pointing out: The Israeli "criminal element" - the settlers - pretty much enjoys free rein.)

    If pointing this out makes me a "creep," what term should we apply to someone who thinks genocide and dispossession are a mere "inconvenience"?

    The point is that excess deaths are a side-effect worth tolerating in the effort to end the Israeli state’s criminally oppressive policies.

    Again, ‘criminally oppressive’ is a bit of rhetorical gamesmanship, and a pretty transparent one.

    There are six sets of Arabs in the territory in question. There are Israeli citizens (numbering 1.2 million), who don’t suffer any disabilities at all. Jerusalem Arabs (about 400,ooo) and Golan Arabs (about 20,000) have an option to apply for citizenship (most don’t want it) and Jerusalem Arabs who haven’t taken out citizenship are limited in their residency options (Jerusalem only); Jerusalem Arabs can vote in local elections, but not national elections. About 1.7 million Arabs live in Gaza under a Hamas regime. Another 1.8 million live in disconnected localities on the West Bank under an Al Fatah regime. Israel is not oppressing either as it does not rule either. There area about 150,000 Arabs living in lightly populated parts of the West Bank which Israel retains. There are another 450,000 or so who live in Al Fatah municipalities withing the Israeli security perimeter. So, for the convenience of these 600,000 Arabs, you’re perfectly happy to starve 500,000 Jewish children.

    The Arab politicians in 2000 had the option to negotiate a final settlement. They wanted no such settlement, because the state of affairs your addled head calls ‘criminal oppression’ is preferable to them to calling off the war against the Jews. They responded to a unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2004 with a campaign of artillery barrages against nearby Jewish towns. They rejected another offer for a comprehensive settlement in 2008. They rejected out of hand the Camp David Accords in 1978. When Israel held municipal elections in 1972 and 1976, the locals elected revanchists, just as they did in 2006. I could ask you how many times they have to say ‘no’ before it enters your mind that a settlement is not what they want. What they want is what you want, which is dead Jews.

    There is no ‘criminal oppression’. You’re just a creep.

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  • @Talha
    Hey Ueber,

    Yeah, I hate the constant use of "Crusader" - after a while, it doesn't mean anything like the way people toss around "terrorist" - ends up just meaning some people we don't like.

    Except for scale and (of course) length of time, there are a lot of parallels between the Thirty Year's War and the current conflagration in the Middle East. However, one thing that stands out as unique is that I don't think this could have happened without today's interconnected communication - this is an extremist religious war made by and for the social media age. This is just another one from the various pathologies that Internet has wrought.

    Peace.

    I encountered an IS supporter two years ago, and his viewpoint seemed pretty representative of Islam, or indeed the more “fundamentalist” types of Christianity or Judaism. He said I had obviously read more far books than he had (in fact I could speak his language – he could not speak mine), but this did not matter because the only worthwhile book was the Koran. It really was like the 21st century arguing with the 14th.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Ueber,

    might not have happened without the invention of printing
     
    Excellent point - excellent analogy! I honestly hadn't thought of that connection. One of the reasons I like engaging with people at UNZ.

    the only worthwhile book was the Koran
     
    I actually believe this to be true depending on the subject at hand. For instance, if one is talking about how God defines Himself or the metaphysical relationship man has with their Maker or the afterlife, then sure.

    If one wants insights into French grammar, best formula for foot deodorant, or how to build a helicopter - then look elsewhere.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Hey Ueber,

    Yeah, I hate the constant use of "Crusader" - after a while, it doesn't mean anything like the way people toss around "terrorist" - ends up just meaning some people we don't like.

    Except for scale and (of course) length of time, there are a lot of parallels between the Thirty Year's War and the current conflagration in the Middle East. However, one thing that stands out as unique is that I don't think this could have happened without today's interconnected communication - this is an extremist religious war made by and for the social media age. This is just another one from the various pathologies that Internet has wrought.

    Peace.

    The Protestant Reformation (and the Counter-Reformation that was partly a response to it) might not have happened without the invention of printing, and the 17th century also saw the dawn of the daily newspaper, as printed newssheets gave updates (as well as propaganda) on events in the Thirty Years’ War and English Civil War.

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  • @Uebersetzer
    https://www.turkishminute.com/2017/04/26/teacher-under-investigation-after-student-mentions-interfaith-dialogue/

    The article cites suspicions about Gulen, but when Erdogan mutters about "Crusaders" his little henchmen leap into action. Of course.
    Contemporary Islam reminds me a lot of 16th century Christianity, which was both highly vigorous and quite bloody.

    Hey Ueber,

    Yeah, I hate the constant use of “Crusader” – after a while, it doesn’t mean anything like the way people toss around “terrorist” – ends up just meaning some people we don’t like.

    Except for scale and (of course) length of time, there are a lot of parallels between the Thirty Year’s War and the current conflagration in the Middle East. However, one thing that stands out as unique is that I don’t think this could have happened without today’s interconnected communication – this is an extremist religious war made by and for the social media age. This is just another one from the various pathologies that Internet has wrought.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    The Protestant Reformation (and the Counter-Reformation that was partly a response to it) might not have happened without the invention of printing, and the 17th century also saw the dawn of the daily newspaper, as printed newssheets gave updates (as well as propaganda) on events in the Thirty Years' War and English Civil War.
    , @Uebersetzer
    I encountered an IS supporter two years ago, and his viewpoint seemed pretty representative of Islam, or indeed the more "fundamentalist" types of Christianity or Judaism. He said I had obviously read more far books than he had (in fact I could speak his language - he could not speak mine), but this did not matter because the only worthwhile book was the Koran. It really was like the 21st century arguing with the 14th.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Hey venteuil,

    Here is what I stated to another person, not so long ago:
    Every nation has a right to set immigration policies it feels are best for its future. If the people of the US decided they only wanted nubile Brazilian women with certain chest and hip ratios – it is fully within their rights. Being that we are currently dealing with an Islamic reformation (that’s right – people who want Islamic reform – this is the reformation, how do you like it so far) attempt gone seriously wrong (the Salafi-Wahhabi school that is only about 150 years old has splintered and almost exclusively is the backdrop ideology for the extremists) – I can see the wisdom in complete closure of the border.
    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/forget-politicians-the-people-of-the-west-have-decided-against-muslim-immigration/#comment-1783119

    As far as throwing weight behind one or another group of Muslims - while I can understand why Russia came in on the side of Syria being that it has felt itself the protector of Orthodox Christians in the region (a very understandable position to take given the history of the region), generally non-Muslim interference is the kiss of death for any one party. It is a huge recruiting tool for the extremists and, in general, delegitimizes the side one is ostensibly trying to help. Needless to say, had the first Iraq "intervention" been avoided, we wouldn't have the Syrian situation on our hands.

    So, yes, in general let the Muslims handle this - it is an internal affair and completely our responsibility. And for God's sake at least don't help the extremist side!!!

    Peace.

    Completely agreed on all points.

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  • @Talha
    Hey Ueber,

    Interesting stuff. This may also have accounted for some of the excesses recorded during the Crusades - penance by blood. Daesh actually reminds me a lot of what I see out of the extremist Left (as Prof. Roy's article alludes to). It is a rejection of the prevailing order and norms - everything must go; traditions, structure, history must be rewritten, etc. It is nihilist to the core - an "Islamic" version of something that is plaguing youth worldwide.

    I've posted this before, but if you haven't seen it, it is worth a watch. This is what they did immediately as they took over parts of Iraq years ago:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvNupoSw_u8

    When they are willing to publicly kill hundreds of Muslim scholars and imams (from among the Sunnis), is there really a surprise when they destroy places like Palmyra or churches?

    Peace.

    https://www.turkishminute.com/2017/04/26/teacher-under-investigation-after-student-mentions-interfaith-dialogue/

    The article cites suspicions about Gulen, but when Erdogan mutters about “Crusaders” his little henchmen leap into action. Of course.
    Contemporary Islam reminds me a lot of 16th century Christianity, which was both highly vigorous and quite bloody.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Ueber,

    Yeah, I hate the constant use of "Crusader" - after a while, it doesn't mean anything like the way people toss around "terrorist" - ends up just meaning some people we don't like.

    Except for scale and (of course) length of time, there are a lot of parallels between the Thirty Year's War and the current conflagration in the Middle East. However, one thing that stands out as unique is that I don't think this could have happened without today's interconnected communication - this is an extremist religious war made by and for the social media age. This is just another one from the various pathologies that Internet has wrought.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @silviosilver
    Talha, you seem like a genuinely nice person, but the fact is we don't have time to worry about your little Islamic sensitivities. We have a civilization to save - which your kind, by and large, are simply not a part of. Your participation in these discussions is like me going to Iran or Israel and telling them what they have to do in order to be moral in my eyes - I'd be laughed right out of the room.

    Hey silviosilver,

    we don’t have time to worry about your little Islamic sensitivities

    That’s all fine. I have read quite a bit on Muslim history and I’m aware that we are in a unique situation. Muslims have never (on a large scale) voluntarily migrated to non-Muslim European lands during times of crisis. Muslim lands did absorb refugees from Europe at times, but not the other way around. This is a brave new world – we have no precedence for what will happen.

    And I am completely aware that what happened to the Moriscos could happen to Muslims in the West.

    We have a civilization to save

    Indeed. Turn back to God, leave decadence, start producing sound, healthy families with kids and you’ll be just fine. It’s actually not that hard – human beings have been doing it for centuries.

    in order to be moral in my eyes

    My opinions are irrelevant. There is a Maker watching – your words and actions (as well as mine) will be judged by Him – not me.

    I come here to give a different perspective, learn from others’ perspective and try to clarify where there is confusion on subjects which I have knowledge.

    Peace.

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  • Talha, you seem like a genuinely nice person, but the fact is we don’t have time to worry about your little Islamic sensitivities. We have a civilization to save – which your kind, by and large, are simply not a part of. Your participation in these discussions is like me going to Iran or Israel and telling them what they have to do in order to be moral in my eyes – I’d be laughed right out of the room.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey silviosilver,

    we don’t have time to worry about your little Islamic sensitivities
     
    That's all fine. I have read quite a bit on Muslim history and I'm aware that we are in a unique situation. Muslims have never (on a large scale) voluntarily migrated to non-Muslim European lands during times of crisis. Muslim lands did absorb refugees from Europe at times, but not the other way around. This is a brave new world - we have no precedence for what will happen.

    And I am completely aware that what happened to the Moriscos could happen to Muslims in the West.


    We have a civilization to save
     
    Indeed. Turn back to God, leave decadence, start producing sound, healthy families with kids and you'll be just fine. It's actually not that hard - human beings have been doing it for centuries.

    in order to be moral in my eyes
     
    My opinions are irrelevant. There is a Maker watching - your words and actions (as well as mine) will be judged by Him - not me.

    I come here to give a different perspective, learn from others' perspective and try to clarify where there is confusion on subjects which I have knowledge.

    Peace.

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  • @Art Deco
    Normal people (ie not congenital liars) understand that indifference towards a thing is not the same thing as a desire for it.

    Normal people understand that someone who is 'indifferent' to hypothetically starving 500,000 children in retaliation for a subfraction of the Arab criminal element being inconvenienced is... a major creep.

    Normal people understand that someone who is ‘indifferent’ to hypothetically starving 500,000 children in retaliation

    The point is that excess deaths are a side-effect worth tolerating in the effort to end the Israeli state’s criminally oppressive policies. No one actively wants the excess deaths.

    for a subfraction of the Arab criminal element being inconvenienced is

    The entirety of the Palestinian population suffers under Israeli oppression, not merely the freedom fighters (laughably dubbed the “criminal element”). (Worth pointing out: The Israeli “criminal element” – the settlers – pretty much enjoys free rein.)

    If pointing this out makes me a “creep,” what term should we apply to someone who thinks genocide and dispossession are a mere “inconvenience”?

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    The point is that excess deaths are a side-effect worth tolerating in the effort to end the Israeli state’s criminally oppressive policies.

    Again, 'criminally oppressive' is a bit of rhetorical gamesmanship, and a pretty transparent one.

    There are six sets of Arabs in the territory in question. There are Israeli citizens (numbering 1.2 million), who don't suffer any disabilities at all. Jerusalem Arabs (about 400,ooo) and Golan Arabs (about 20,000) have an option to apply for citizenship (most don't want it) and Jerusalem Arabs who haven't taken out citizenship are limited in their residency options (Jerusalem only); Jerusalem Arabs can vote in local elections, but not national elections. About 1.7 million Arabs live in Gaza under a Hamas regime. Another 1.8 million live in disconnected localities on the West Bank under an Al Fatah regime. Israel is not oppressing either as it does not rule either. There area about 150,000 Arabs living in lightly populated parts of the West Bank which Israel retains. There are another 450,000 or so who live in Al Fatah municipalities withing the Israeli security perimeter. So, for the convenience of these 600,000 Arabs, you're perfectly happy to starve 500,000 Jewish children.

    The Arab politicians in 2000 had the option to negotiate a final settlement. They wanted no such settlement, because the state of affairs your addled head calls 'criminal oppression' is preferable to them to calling off the war against the Jews. They responded to a unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2004 with a campaign of artillery barrages against nearby Jewish towns. They rejected another offer for a comprehensive settlement in 2008. They rejected out of hand the Camp David Accords in 1978. When Israel held municipal elections in 1972 and 1976, the locals elected revanchists, just as they did in 2006. I could ask you how many times they have to say 'no' before it enters your mind that a settlement is not what they want. What they want is what you want, which is dead Jews.

    There is no 'criminal oppression'. You're just a creep.

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  • @vinteuil
    Do you think it was "fine for Albright to be dismissive about the deaths of Iraqi kids?"

    Do you think it was “fine for Albright to be dismissive about the deaths of Iraqi kids?”

    Not publicly. It was a public relations disaster.

    Morally, however, while it’s distressing to be reminded of the sometimes unavoidable suffering that innocents must experience, which is a permanent feature of human existence, it’s also comforting to think that, despite the endless PC noises we hear, there are still powerful decision-makers who are capable of being coldly calculating. Ultimately, of course, the suffering incurred by those Iraqis was supposed to lead to a world in which less such suffering would ever be necessary (a point missed by those who focus on the relative expediency of leaving Saddam in power).

    All of that is a rather long-winded way of saying that, yes, despite my dislike of her for other reasons, it was essentially “fine” for her to be dismissive.

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  • @Uebersetzer
    IS reminds me of a late work by Christopher Marlowe, The Massacre At Paris. The text has been handed down in a corrupt form but its late 16th century setting of religious/political conflict is also in places strangely 21st century. In one scene an assassin is being recruited to take out the French king Henry III. His recruiter questions his motivation and the assassin replies (I am quoting from memory) "I have been a great sinner in my time and the deed is meritorious". The implication is that he has slipped up more than once in terms of Catholic teaching and this is how he is making up for it.
    IS etc. fighters, suicide bombers etc. rarely possess doctorates of Islamic theology, but frankly it would be surprising if they did. There have been reports of fighters joining IS, Nusra etc. for no loftier or more religious reason than that they get paid more. This is not the least of the reasons for defections from the nebulous FSA to them.
    The real religious zealots may be back at base camp, encouraging them. Or even in Saudi Arabia, running TV stations that pump out jihadist content.
    I alluded to the Sivas massacre, but even local councillor Cafer Ercakmak did not set fire to the building himself. He merely whipped up the crowd that did it, saying things like "Religion is a matter of what you do with your hands (din elden gidiyor)."

    Hey Ueber,

    Interesting stuff. This may also have accounted for some of the excesses recorded during the Crusades – penance by blood. Daesh actually reminds me a lot of what I see out of the extremist Left (as Prof. Roy’s article alludes to). It is a rejection of the prevailing order and norms – everything must go; traditions, structure, history must be rewritten, etc. It is nihilist to the core – an “Islamic” version of something that is plaguing youth worldwide.

    I’ve posted this before, but if you haven’t seen it, it is worth a watch. This is what they did immediately as they took over parts of Iraq years ago:

    When they are willing to publicly kill hundreds of Muslim scholars and imams (from among the Sunnis), is there really a surprise when they destroy places like Palmyra or churches?

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    https://www.turkishminute.com/2017/04/26/teacher-under-investigation-after-student-mentions-interfaith-dialogue/

    The article cites suspicions about Gulen, but when Erdogan mutters about "Crusaders" his little henchmen leap into action. Of course.
    Contemporary Islam reminds me a lot of 16th century Christianity, which was both highly vigorous and quite bloody.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • http://haber.sol.org.tr/toplum/arapca-levhalar-kaldirildi-194371

    Municipal police removing signs in Arabic in Adana. It would be interesting to know why exactly, as the article does not say, but there are reactions against Syrian refugees in Turkey and this might be a gesture in that direction.

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  • @Talha
    Hey vinteuil,

    You’re very good at what you do.
     
    Thanks - not much to it; having facts on your side and a coherent narrative is about all you need.

    I've noted there are two types of people I interact with here at UNZ:
    1) People who dismiss whatever I have to say because...taqiyya and stuff. I will not be able to convince these people of either my sincerity or anything I bring to the table.
    2) People who - even if they disagree with me - will at least give a chance to what I have to say. They appreciate the different perspective I bring to the table.

    If you are from the former, let me not waste your time and simply cut to the chase - peace.

    If the latter, read on...

    We Muslims are quite aware of the danger posed by the extremists (that's right, they are Muslims, but they are extremists). So I don't take this subject lightly. Here is a list and timeline and casualty count of 15 attacks carried out by extremists on the mausoleums of Sufis just in Pakistan (I'm not even including Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Nigeria, etc.):
    https://www.dawn.com/news/1315263

    So you think the extremists have the same credentials as 1400 years of qualified Muslim scholarship. You are entitled to your opinion. Let's see what an expert has to say.

    Prof. Oliver Roy (http://www.eui.eu/DepartmentsAndCentres/PoliticalAndSocialSciences/People/Professors/Roy.aspx) is one of the world's leading experts on Islamist movements, global jihadists, extremists and the current revival of Islam in the Muslim world. He has studied everything from the jihad in Afghanistan to the rise of Islam in the Balkans and wrote this seminal work:
    The Failure of Political Islam
    http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674291416&content=reviews

    His article "Who are the New Jihadis?" is required reading for anyone interested in the contemporary extremist movement:
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/13/who-are-the-new-jihadis

    He systematically researched the profiles of 100 people who either committed terrorism in France or Belgium or went to fight for Daesh from there. And he came up with certain archetypal characteristics:
    "Another common feature is the radicals’ distance from their immediate circle. They did not live in a particularly religious environment. Their relationship to the local mosque was ambivalent: either they attended episodically, or they were expelled for having shown disrespect for the local imam....To summarise: the typical radical is a young, second-generation immigrant or convert, very often involved in episodes of petty crime, with practically no religious education, but having a rapid and recent trajectory of conversion/reconversion, more often in the framework of a group of friends or over the internet than in the context of a mosque. The embrace of religion is rarely kept secret, but rather is exhibited, but it does not necessarily correspond to immersion in religious practice....As we have seen, jihadis do not descend into violence after poring over sacred texts. They do not have the necessary religious culture – and, above all, care little about having one. They do not become radicals because they have misread the texts or because they have been manipulated. They are radicals because they choose to be, because only radicalism appeals to them. No matter what database is taken as a reference, the paucity of religious knowledge among jihadis is glaring."

    So I guess we should just take it on face value that nihilists "with practically no religious education" are the best voices of Islamic interpretation. Yes, yes - how could I have missed that??!! The people who know the least about any given subject are, of course, its best experts!

    I guess if people are wetting their bed sheets because some coloring book in Turkey says jihad is a recommended concept in Islam, I don't really have much advice for them, other than OxiClean does wonders.

    I await any evidence you can bring from anything I've written previously that states that I think it is a good thing to increase or even keep the current level of Muslim immigration into the West or that stopping immigration would be oppressive.

    Speaking of putting folks to sleep. There's a trend that I have noticed; again and again, these guys that pull off attacks in Europe have increasingly come across the law before. A disproportionate number have often been under custody and scrutiny some how end up pulling these stunts off - and - wow - right before elections:
    "The man believed to be responsible for Thursday’s terror attack in Paris was previously investigated for terrorism threats and jailed for shooting police officers, it has been confirmed."
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-attack-isis-terror-champs-elysees-gunman-accomplice-police-manhunt-belgian-karim-cheurfi-a7694266.html

    Here's another tune for you:
    Go to sleep. We'll keep you safe from those bad Muslims. But we can't do it right. Our hands are tied. We need more power. Oh, and more money, more money - just a little more money. Because we're only here to keep you safe. You can trust us.

    Peace.

    IS reminds me of a late work by Christopher Marlowe, The Massacre At Paris. The text has been handed down in a corrupt form but its late 16th century setting of religious/political conflict is also in places strangely 21st century. In one scene an assassin is being recruited to take out the French king Henry III. His recruiter questions his motivation and the assassin replies (I am quoting from memory) “I have been a great sinner in my time and the deed is meritorious”. The implication is that he has slipped up more than once in terms of Catholic teaching and this is how he is making up for it.
    IS etc. fighters, suicide bombers etc. rarely possess doctorates of Islamic theology, but frankly it would be surprising if they did. There have been reports of fighters joining IS, Nusra etc. for no loftier or more religious reason than that they get paid more. This is not the least of the reasons for defections from the nebulous FSA to them.
    The real religious zealots may be back at base camp, encouraging them. Or even in Saudi Arabia, running TV stations that pump out jihadist content.
    I alluded to the Sivas massacre, but even local councillor Cafer Ercakmak did not set fire to the building himself. He merely whipped up the crowd that did it, saying things like “Religion is a matter of what you do with your hands (din elden gidiyor).”

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Ueber,

    Interesting stuff. This may also have accounted for some of the excesses recorded during the Crusades - penance by blood. Daesh actually reminds me a lot of what I see out of the extremist Left (as Prof. Roy's article alludes to). It is a rejection of the prevailing order and norms - everything must go; traditions, structure, history must be rewritten, etc. It is nihilist to the core - an "Islamic" version of something that is plaguing youth worldwide.

    I've posted this before, but if you haven't seen it, it is worth a watch. This is what they did immediately as they took over parts of Iraq years ago:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvNupoSw_u8

    When they are willing to publicly kill hundreds of Muslim scholars and imams (from among the Sunnis), is there really a surprise when they destroy places like Palmyra or churches?

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @vinteuil
    "I await any evidence you can bring from anything I’ve written previously that states that I think it is a good thing to increase or even keep the current level of Muslim immigration into the West or that stopping immigration would be oppressive."

    If you would have no quarrel with a complete moratorium on muslim immigration into the West for the indefinite future, then we're on the same page.

    I hope you'd also agree that the West should stop taking sides in disputes between rival groups of Muslims. We should just let them fight it out among themselves and deal as best we can with whoever comes out on top.

    Hey venteuil,

    Here is what I stated to another person, not so long ago:
    Every nation has a right to set immigration policies it feels are best for its future. If the people of the US decided they only wanted nubile Brazilian women with certain chest and hip ratios – it is fully within their rights. Being that we are currently dealing with an Islamic reformation (that’s right – people who want Islamic reform – this is the reformation, how do you like it so far) attempt gone seriously wrong (the Salafi-Wahhabi school that is only about 150 years old has splintered and almost exclusively is the backdrop ideology for the extremists) – I can see the wisdom in complete closure of the border.

    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/forget-politicians-the-people-of-the-west-have-decided-against-muslim-immigration/#comment-1783119

    As far as throwing weight behind one or another group of Muslims – while I can understand why Russia came in on the side of Syria being that it has felt itself the protector of Orthodox Christians in the region (a very understandable position to take given the history of the region), generally non-Muslim interference is the kiss of death for any one party. It is a huge recruiting tool for the extremists and, in general, delegitimizes the side one is ostensibly trying to help. Needless to say, had the first Iraq “intervention” been avoided, we wouldn’t have the Syrian situation on our hands.

    So, yes, in general let the Muslims handle this – it is an internal affair and completely our responsibility. And for God’s sake at least don’t help the extremist side!!!

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @vinteuil
    Completely agreed on all points.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I hope you’d also agree that the West should stop taking sides in disputes between rival groups of Muslims.

    When one of these rival groups starts murdering Christians and destroying their churches, perhaps the West has a default side to take?

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  • @Talha
    Hey vinteuil,

    You’re very good at what you do.
     
    Thanks - not much to it; having facts on your side and a coherent narrative is about all you need.

    I've noted there are two types of people I interact with here at UNZ:
    1) People who dismiss whatever I have to say because...taqiyya and stuff. I will not be able to convince these people of either my sincerity or anything I bring to the table.
    2) People who - even if they disagree with me - will at least give a chance to what I have to say. They appreciate the different perspective I bring to the table.

    If you are from the former, let me not waste your time and simply cut to the chase - peace.

    If the latter, read on...

    We Muslims are quite aware of the danger posed by the extremists (that's right, they are Muslims, but they are extremists). So I don't take this subject lightly. Here is a list and timeline and casualty count of 15 attacks carried out by extremists on the mausoleums of Sufis just in Pakistan (I'm not even including Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Nigeria, etc.):
    https://www.dawn.com/news/1315263

    So you think the extremists have the same credentials as 1400 years of qualified Muslim scholarship. You are entitled to your opinion. Let's see what an expert has to say.

    Prof. Oliver Roy (http://www.eui.eu/DepartmentsAndCentres/PoliticalAndSocialSciences/People/Professors/Roy.aspx) is one of the world's leading experts on Islamist movements, global jihadists, extremists and the current revival of Islam in the Muslim world. He has studied everything from the jihad in Afghanistan to the rise of Islam in the Balkans and wrote this seminal work:
    The Failure of Political Islam
    http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674291416&content=reviews

    His article "Who are the New Jihadis?" is required reading for anyone interested in the contemporary extremist movement:
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/13/who-are-the-new-jihadis

    He systematically researched the profiles of 100 people who either committed terrorism in France or Belgium or went to fight for Daesh from there. And he came up with certain archetypal characteristics:
    "Another common feature is the radicals’ distance from their immediate circle. They did not live in a particularly religious environment. Their relationship to the local mosque was ambivalent: either they attended episodically, or they were expelled for having shown disrespect for the local imam....To summarise: the typical radical is a young, second-generation immigrant or convert, very often involved in episodes of petty crime, with practically no religious education, but having a rapid and recent trajectory of conversion/reconversion, more often in the framework of a group of friends or over the internet than in the context of a mosque. The embrace of religion is rarely kept secret, but rather is exhibited, but it does not necessarily correspond to immersion in religious practice....As we have seen, jihadis do not descend into violence after poring over sacred texts. They do not have the necessary religious culture – and, above all, care little about having one. They do not become radicals because they have misread the texts or because they have been manipulated. They are radicals because they choose to be, because only radicalism appeals to them. No matter what database is taken as a reference, the paucity of religious knowledge among jihadis is glaring."

    So I guess we should just take it on face value that nihilists "with practically no religious education" are the best voices of Islamic interpretation. Yes, yes - how could I have missed that??!! The people who know the least about any given subject are, of course, its best experts!

    I guess if people are wetting their bed sheets because some coloring book in Turkey says jihad is a recommended concept in Islam, I don't really have much advice for them, other than OxiClean does wonders.

    I await any evidence you can bring from anything I've written previously that states that I think it is a good thing to increase or even keep the current level of Muslim immigration into the West or that stopping immigration would be oppressive.

    Speaking of putting folks to sleep. There's a trend that I have noticed; again and again, these guys that pull off attacks in Europe have increasingly come across the law before. A disproportionate number have often been under custody and scrutiny some how end up pulling these stunts off - and - wow - right before elections:
    "The man believed to be responsible for Thursday’s terror attack in Paris was previously investigated for terrorism threats and jailed for shooting police officers, it has been confirmed."
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-attack-isis-terror-champs-elysees-gunman-accomplice-police-manhunt-belgian-karim-cheurfi-a7694266.html

    Here's another tune for you:
    Go to sleep. We'll keep you safe from those bad Muslims. But we can't do it right. Our hands are tied. We need more power. Oh, and more money, more money - just a little more money. Because we're only here to keep you safe. You can trust us.

    Peace.

    “I await any evidence you can bring from anything I’ve written previously that states that I think it is a good thing to increase or even keep the current level of Muslim immigration into the West or that stopping immigration would be oppressive.”

    If you would have no quarrel with a complete moratorium on muslim immigration into the West for the indefinite future, then we’re on the same page.

    I hope you’d also agree that the West should stop taking sides in disputes between rival groups of Muslims. We should just let them fight it out among themselves and deal as best we can with whoever comes out on top.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey venteuil,

    Here is what I stated to another person, not so long ago:
    Every nation has a right to set immigration policies it feels are best for its future. If the people of the US decided they only wanted nubile Brazilian women with certain chest and hip ratios – it is fully within their rights. Being that we are currently dealing with an Islamic reformation (that’s right – people who want Islamic reform – this is the reformation, how do you like it so far) attempt gone seriously wrong (the Salafi-Wahhabi school that is only about 150 years old has splintered and almost exclusively is the backdrop ideology for the extremists) – I can see the wisdom in complete closure of the border.
    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/forget-politicians-the-people-of-the-west-have-decided-against-muslim-immigration/#comment-1783119

    As far as throwing weight behind one or another group of Muslims - while I can understand why Russia came in on the side of Syria being that it has felt itself the protector of Orthodox Christians in the region (a very understandable position to take given the history of the region), generally non-Muslim interference is the kiss of death for any one party. It is a huge recruiting tool for the extremists and, in general, delegitimizes the side one is ostensibly trying to help. Needless to say, had the first Iraq "intervention" been avoided, we wouldn't have the Syrian situation on our hands.

    So, yes, in general let the Muslims handle this - it is an internal affair and completely our responsibility. And for God's sake at least don't help the extremist side!!!

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art Deco
    She's nothing of the kind. Like any public official, she faces people peddling fictions and she faces trade-offs. In Iraq, you have a policy trilemma and social fictions. She also faces selected members of the public who are...major creeps. They're well represented here at Unz.

    As for Israel and adjacent territories, there's nothing comparable. Daily life is suboptimal to one degree or another for the six sets of Arabs who live there. Neither Israel nor any other party can do much about that. The Arab political bosses (or others purporting to bargain on the behalf of those publics) have to want to bargain over better terms. They don't wish to. They wish to have temporary truces until they can execute their next move. Hasn't worked out that well for them the last 90-odd years, but both politicians and the public continue to maintain political aims (manifest in survey research) that ordinarily you'd maintain only if you were in a position to dictate terms to someone. They aren't. They haven't been for 90+ years, so silviosilver and others want a blockade of Israel to kill 500,000 youngsters so someone will dictate terms. Because terms which include Jews living an breathing and owning property and engaging in productive activity and governing themselves are unacceptable to various and sundry Arab fascists, to sivliosilver, Philip Giraldi, and not a few on these boards.

    “…terms which include Jews living and breathing and owning property and engaging in productive activity and governing themselves are unacceptable to…Philip Giraldi…”

    Again, I’m not an expert on Giraldi’s writings, but those I’ve read don’t support this claim. Can you give me a link?

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  • “…permanent small ruling class enforcing a state religion while they tax-farmed a passive peasantry…”

    I know what they feel like. In our case we voted for an Atatürk and got a Judas.

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  • @Mr. Anon

    Normal people understand that someone who is ‘indifferent’ to hypothetically starving 500,000 children in retaliation for a subfraction of the Arab criminal element being inconvenienced is… a major creep.
     
    So is Madeleine Albright a major creep? Or does she just not care about being seen as a major creep?

    She’s nothing of the kind. Like any public official, she faces people peddling fictions and she faces trade-offs. In Iraq, you have a policy trilemma and social fictions. She also faces selected members of the public who are…major creeps. They’re well represented here at Unz.

    As for Israel and adjacent territories, there’s nothing comparable. Daily life is suboptimal to one degree or another for the six sets of Arabs who live there. Neither Israel nor any other party can do much about that. The Arab political bosses (or others purporting to bargain on the behalf of those publics) have to want to bargain over better terms. They don’t wish to. They wish to have temporary truces until they can execute their next move. Hasn’t worked out that well for them the last 90-odd years, but both politicians and the public continue to maintain political aims (manifest in survey research) that ordinarily you’d maintain only if you were in a position to dictate terms to someone. They aren’t. They haven’t been for 90+ years, so silviosilver and others want a blockade of Israel to kill 500,000 youngsters so someone will dictate terms. Because terms which include Jews living an breathing and owning property and engaging in productive activity and governing themselves are unacceptable to various and sundry Arab fascists, to sivliosilver, Philip Giraldi, and not a few on these boards.

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    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @vinteuil
    "...terms which include Jews living and breathing and owning property and engaging in productive activity and governing themselves are unacceptable to...Philip Giraldi..."

    Again, I'm not an expert on Giraldi's writings, but those I've read don't support this claim. Can you give me a link?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @CM
    "The spirit of an open and tolerant society, free inquiry, the disinterested pursuit of truth, is under mortal threat here as well as in Turkey. The big difference: here, the threat comes from the top, from our elites at places like Pomona College. In Turkey, it comes from below."

    Lol, really? Turkey was NEVER a proper democracy, open or tolerant. As an example, it took until 1991 for it to be legal to even speak Kurdish in Turkey. It was a criminal offence for some 15-20% of Turkey's population to speak their native language.

    Prior to Erdogan when the Kemalists were running the show, there was next to no free speech or freedom of press. They charged their only Nobel Prize winner (Orhan Pamuk) of 'insulting Turkishness' for stating the Armenian Genocide happened, they curtailed freedom of religion for Armenians and Greeks, confiscated private property of minorities and carried out all sorts of undemocratic measures.

    Erdogan never turned some functioning democracy into a dictatorship. He's just another Turkish leader from a long line of dictators, except this time more Islamist in character than Kemalist. If anything, Turkey's rank in democracy and freedom of press indexes increased under Erdogan's rule - and that's very reflective of how the secularists before him were not 'open, tolerant or for free inquiry'.

    There was arguably some improvement early in the AKP’s rule, when Erdogan also tended to get a relatively good press in the West, but there has been dramatic deterioration since about 2010 or 2011.
    But yes, there were plenty of horror stories before Erdogan. A Kurdish left-winger was arrested and brought before a court sometime in the 1990s, and in his defence speech he said that his treatment was like something out of Kafka. The prosecutor then called for an investigation into this individual Kafka, on the grounds that he might be an accomplice of the defendant.

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  • CM says:

    “The spirit of an open and tolerant society, free inquiry, the disinterested pursuit of truth, is under mortal threat here as well as in Turkey. The big difference: here, the threat comes from the top, from our elites at places like Pomona College. In Turkey, it comes from below.”

    Lol, really? Turkey was NEVER a proper democracy, open or tolerant. As an example, it took until 1991 for it to be legal to even speak Kurdish in Turkey. It was a criminal offence for some 15-20% of Turkey’s population to speak their native language.

    Prior to Erdogan when the Kemalists were running the show, there was next to no free speech or freedom of press. They charged their only Nobel Prize winner (Orhan Pamuk) of ‘insulting Turkishness’ for stating the Armenian Genocide happened, they curtailed freedom of religion for Armenians and Greeks, confiscated private property of minorities and carried out all sorts of undemocratic measures.

    Erdogan never turned some functioning democracy into a dictatorship. He’s just another Turkish leader from a long line of dictators, except this time more Islamist in character than Kemalist. If anything, Turkey’s rank in democracy and freedom of press indexes increased under Erdogan’s rule – and that’s very reflective of how the secularists before him were not ‘open, tolerant or for free inquiry’.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    There was arguably some improvement early in the AKP's rule, when Erdogan also tended to get a relatively good press in the West, but there has been dramatic deterioration since about 2010 or 2011.
    But yes, there were plenty of horror stories before Erdogan. A Kurdish left-winger was arrested and brought before a court sometime in the 1990s, and in his defence speech he said that his treatment was like something out of Kafka. The prosecutor then called for an investigation into this individual Kafka, on the grounds that he might be an accomplice of the defendant.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Mr. Anon

    Normal people understand that someone who is ‘indifferent’ to hypothetically starving 500,000 children in retaliation for a subfraction of the Arab criminal element being inconvenienced is… a major creep.
     
    So is Madeleine Albright a major creep? Or does she just not care about being seen as a major creep?

    Albright’s open callousness was refreshingly honest. Western ruling classes are always turning other places into total dystopias because the local ruler “kills his own people” etc. Pretending to be humanitarians bombing others into being more humanitarian. Albright was at least admitting to not giving a damn.

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  • https://www.turkishminute.com/2017/04/26/judges-who-attempted-to-release-samanyolu-tv-ceo-sentenced-to-10-years-in-jail/

    Obviously we aren’t dealing here with a judiciary even pretending to be independent any more.
    Also, judges who released a Dutch woman journalist arrested in the Kurdish east were penalised, the prosecutor who wanted to throw the book at her was later promoted.

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  • http://www.nationalturk.com/en/20th-year-anniversary-of-sivas-massacre-does-not-forgotten-turkey-news-39726/

    Even before AKP governments, you had this kind of thing. Note the photo of Cafer Ercakmak, who was an Islamist and I believe also a local councillor for the Welfare Party, a predecessor party of the AKP. Ercakmak was charged with being one of those who whipped up the mob, but not jailed, and disappeared into hiding. He died in or about 2012, still in hiding but about 10 miles from Sivas. Obviously there were people sheltering him.

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  • @Expletive Deleted
    I know, it's a shame. Her two Stuart successors (or rather their governments) fined most of my g-g-etc. g'father's property away for recusancy, a bit every year. He was tossed in jail (and got terminally sick, an old man) for it, some of his more devout sons fled abroad, and the absolute tin hat was put on it in Cromwell's time, when the local vicar caught one particularly obstinate, returned and ordained son with his flock (a "hedge-priest") and (after taking names) had him marched off by the mob (a.k.a. the Lord's congregation, from the local Proddy wigwam) and eventually hanged, and his head stuck on a pike at the town cross (from where, bizarrely, it was eventually retrieved and ended up in a secret compartment of a local sympathizer's house, only to be discovered by my mother's great grandfather's boss, a carpenter to whom her g-g etc. was apprenticed and working with at the time , in the late 19th century. Still kicking about somewhere, I believe. (The skull and jaw, that is, not her g-grandad. He was an obscure sort of Methodist, and chapel organist, when on the waggon). Maybe they should get us to do a dna test? Just for a laugh.
    Obviously I'm from one of the less zealous sons, who failed to see the attractions of steadfast attachment to Rome, celibacy and martyrdom. Or even sobriety or charity.

    Was the unfortunate priest Hugh Green, executed in Dorchester, 1642? The local Protestant enthusiasts played football with his head afterwards.

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  • @vinteuil
    "...a simple mention in a kids book in a Muslim country that ‘jihad is recommended’ as a general principle is hardly cause for major alarm..."

    Ah, Talha - how charmingly sweet you sing.

    Don't worry. Rest easy. All will be well. Go to sleep. Those guys shooting people and blowing stuff up? Not True Muslims. We sufi scholars are the True Muslims. Just look at all the writings that say so! Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Jihad? Don't be alarmed! It's nothing, really. Nothing at all. Just an internal struggle thing. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. And invite us. Invite us. Invite us.

    You're very good at what you do.

    Mersin province where the colouring book appeared voted No in the official referendum figures, and clearly there is some pushing back at the Islamicisation of children. The reaction to a colouring book says something about the culture wars, along with other kinds of war, raging in Turkey right now.
    It could be that references to jihad are not meant to mean kids are being trained to cut the throats of non-Muslims or the insufficiently Muslim, but the term is as loaded now in Turkish as it is in English. Mersin is also not geographically remote from Syria, where “jihad” does have a clear meaning of kill the Infidels.

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  • @Art Deco
    Normal people (ie not congenital liars) understand that indifference towards a thing is not the same thing as a desire for it.

    Normal people understand that someone who is 'indifferent' to hypothetically starving 500,000 children in retaliation for a subfraction of the Arab criminal element being inconvenienced is... a major creep.

    Normal people understand that someone who is ‘indifferent’ to hypothetically starving 500,000 children in retaliation for a subfraction of the Arab criminal element being inconvenienced is… a major creep.

    So is Madeleine Albright a major creep? Or does she just not care about being seen as a major creep?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    Albright's open callousness was refreshingly honest. Western ruling classes are always turning other places into total dystopias because the local ruler "kills his own people" etc. Pretending to be humanitarians bombing others into being more humanitarian. Albright was at least admitting to not giving a damn.
    , @Art Deco
    She's nothing of the kind. Like any public official, she faces people peddling fictions and she faces trade-offs. In Iraq, you have a policy trilemma and social fictions. She also faces selected members of the public who are...major creeps. They're well represented here at Unz.

    As for Israel and adjacent territories, there's nothing comparable. Daily life is suboptimal to one degree or another for the six sets of Arabs who live there. Neither Israel nor any other party can do much about that. The Arab political bosses (or others purporting to bargain on the behalf of those publics) have to want to bargain over better terms. They don't wish to. They wish to have temporary truces until they can execute their next move. Hasn't worked out that well for them the last 90-odd years, but both politicians and the public continue to maintain political aims (manifest in survey research) that ordinarily you'd maintain only if you were in a position to dictate terms to someone. They aren't. They haven't been for 90+ years, so silviosilver and others want a blockade of Israel to kill 500,000 youngsters so someone will dictate terms. Because terms which include Jews living an breathing and owning property and engaging in productive activity and governing themselves are unacceptable to various and sundry Arab fascists, to sivliosilver, Philip Giraldi, and not a few on these boards.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    Thanks. I shall put it my data base to flesh out the detail in my mini thesis No.57 that I shall probably have to pursue in another life :-)

    Or you could just do what Art Deco does; look it up on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is his brain – he has no other.

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  • @Talha
    Hey vinteuil,

    You’re very good at what you do.
     
    Thanks - not much to it; having facts on your side and a coherent narrative is about all you need.

    I've noted there are two types of people I interact with here at UNZ:
    1) People who dismiss whatever I have to say because...taqiyya and stuff. I will not be able to convince these people of either my sincerity or anything I bring to the table.
    2) People who - even if they disagree with me - will at least give a chance to what I have to say. They appreciate the different perspective I bring to the table.

    If you are from the former, let me not waste your time and simply cut to the chase - peace.

    If the latter, read on...

    We Muslims are quite aware of the danger posed by the extremists (that's right, they are Muslims, but they are extremists). So I don't take this subject lightly. Here is a list and timeline and casualty count of 15 attacks carried out by extremists on the mausoleums of Sufis just in Pakistan (I'm not even including Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Nigeria, etc.):
    https://www.dawn.com/news/1315263

    So you think the extremists have the same credentials as 1400 years of qualified Muslim scholarship. You are entitled to your opinion. Let's see what an expert has to say.

    Prof. Oliver Roy (http://www.eui.eu/DepartmentsAndCentres/PoliticalAndSocialSciences/People/Professors/Roy.aspx) is one of the world's leading experts on Islamist movements, global jihadists, extremists and the current revival of Islam in the Muslim world. He has studied everything from the jihad in Afghanistan to the rise of Islam in the Balkans and wrote this seminal work:
    The Failure of Political Islam
    http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674291416&content=reviews

    His article "Who are the New Jihadis?" is required reading for anyone interested in the contemporary extremist movement:
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/13/who-are-the-new-jihadis

    He systematically researched the profiles of 100 people who either committed terrorism in France or Belgium or went to fight for Daesh from there. And he came up with certain archetypal characteristics:
    "Another common feature is the radicals’ distance from their immediate circle. They did not live in a particularly religious environment. Their relationship to the local mosque was ambivalent: either they attended episodically, or they were expelled for having shown disrespect for the local imam....To summarise: the typical radical is a young, second-generation immigrant or convert, very often involved in episodes of petty crime, with practically no religious education, but having a rapid and recent trajectory of conversion/reconversion, more often in the framework of a group of friends or over the internet than in the context of a mosque. The embrace of religion is rarely kept secret, but rather is exhibited, but it does not necessarily correspond to immersion in religious practice....As we have seen, jihadis do not descend into violence after poring over sacred texts. They do not have the necessary religious culture – and, above all, care little about having one. They do not become radicals because they have misread the texts or because they have been manipulated. They are radicals because they choose to be, because only radicalism appeals to them. No matter what database is taken as a reference, the paucity of religious knowledge among jihadis is glaring."

    So I guess we should just take it on face value that nihilists "with practically no religious education" are the best voices of Islamic interpretation. Yes, yes - how could I have missed that??!! The people who know the least about any given subject are, of course, its best experts!

    I guess if people are wetting their bed sheets because some coloring book in Turkey says jihad is a recommended concept in Islam, I don't really have much advice for them, other than OxiClean does wonders.

    I await any evidence you can bring from anything I've written previously that states that I think it is a good thing to increase or even keep the current level of Muslim immigration into the West or that stopping immigration would be oppressive.

    Speaking of putting folks to sleep. There's a trend that I have noticed; again and again, these guys that pull off attacks in Europe have increasingly come across the law before. A disproportionate number have often been under custody and scrutiny some how end up pulling these stunts off - and - wow - right before elections:
    "The man believed to be responsible for Thursday’s terror attack in Paris was previously investigated for terrorism threats and jailed for shooting police officers, it has been confirmed."
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-attack-isis-terror-champs-elysees-gunman-accomplice-police-manhunt-belgian-karim-cheurfi-a7694266.html

    Here's another tune for you:
    Go to sleep. We'll keep you safe from those bad Muslims. But we can't do it right. Our hands are tied. We need more power. Oh, and more money, more money - just a little more money. Because we're only here to keep you safe. You can trust us.

    Peace.

    Oh yeah – don’t forget this one – #16:
    “At least 75 dead, including children and women, as ISIL claims blast at Lal Shahbaz Qalandar shrine in Sindh province.”

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/blast-hits-pakistan-lal-shahbaz-qalandar-sufi-shrine-170216144747128.html

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  • @Anonymous
    Come on. When I was a kid I'd have loved to see pictures of Godfrey de Bouillon and Raymond of Toulouse (my namesake!) ; and though Ivanhoe can be taken as a Presbyterian tract no one does take it as anything but a glorification of the Crusaders and the romance of the period (and, heck, even the Church); ditto The Talisman. You don't object to the singing of Partant pour la Syrie, do you?

    Note: Yes, I know the lyrics are inane. That's not the point.
    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @vinteuil
    "...a simple mention in a kids book in a Muslim country that ‘jihad is recommended’ as a general principle is hardly cause for major alarm..."

    Ah, Talha - how charmingly sweet you sing.

    Don't worry. Rest easy. All will be well. Go to sleep. Those guys shooting people and blowing stuff up? Not True Muslims. We sufi scholars are the True Muslims. Just look at all the writings that say so! Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Jihad? Don't be alarmed! It's nothing, really. Nothing at all. Just an internal struggle thing. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. And invite us. Invite us. Invite us.

    You're very good at what you do.

    Hey vinteuil,

    You’re very good at what you do.

    Thanks – not much to it; having facts on your side and a coherent narrative is about all you need.

    I’ve noted there are two types of people I interact with here at UNZ:
    1) People who dismiss whatever I have to say because…taqiyya and stuff. I will not be able to convince these people of either my sincerity or anything I bring to the table.
    2) People who – even if they disagree with me – will at least give a chance to what I have to say. They appreciate the different perspective I bring to the table.

    If you are from the former, let me not waste your time and simply cut to the chase – peace.

    If the latter, read on…

    We Muslims are quite aware of the danger posed by the extremists (that’s right, they are Muslims, but they are extremists). So I don’t take this subject lightly. Here is a list and timeline and casualty count of 15 attacks carried out by extremists on the mausoleums of Sufis just in Pakistan (I’m not even including Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Nigeria, etc.):

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1315263

    So you think the extremists have the same credentials as 1400 years of qualified Muslim scholarship. You are entitled to your opinion. Let’s see what an expert has to say.

    Prof. Oliver Roy (http://www.eui.eu/DepartmentsAndCentres/PoliticalAndSocialSciences/People/Professors/Roy.aspx) is one of the world’s leading experts on Islamist movements, global jihadists, extremists and the current revival of Islam in the Muslim world. He has studied everything from the jihad in Afghanistan to the rise of Islam in the Balkans and wrote this seminal work:
    The Failure of Political Islam

    http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674291416&content=reviews

    His article “Who are the New Jihadis?” is required reading for anyone interested in the contemporary extremist movement:

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/13/who-are-the-new-jihadis

    He systematically researched the profiles of 100 people who either committed terrorism in France or Belgium or went to fight for Daesh from there. And he came up with certain archetypal characteristics:
    “Another common feature is the radicals’ distance from their immediate circle. They did not live in a particularly religious environment. Their relationship to the local mosque was ambivalent: either they attended episodically, or they were expelled for having shown disrespect for the local imam….To summarise: the typical radical is a young, second-generation immigrant or convert, very often involved in episodes of petty crime, with practically no religious education, but having a rapid and recent trajectory of conversion/reconversion, more often in the framework of a group of friends or over the internet than in the context of a mosque. The embrace of religion is rarely kept secret, but rather is exhibited, but it does not necessarily correspond to immersion in religious practice….As we have seen, jihadis do not descend into violence after poring over sacred texts. They do not have the necessary religious culture – and, above all, care little about having one. They do not become radicals because they have misread the texts or because they have been manipulated. They are radicals because they choose to be, because only radicalism appeals to them. No matter what database is taken as a reference, the paucity of religious knowledge among jihadis is glaring.”

    So I guess we should just take it on face value that nihilists “with practically no religious education” are the best voices of Islamic interpretation. Yes, yes – how could I have missed that??!! The people who know the least about any given subject are, of course, its best experts!

    I guess if people are wetting their bed sheets because some coloring book in Turkey says jihad is a recommended concept in Islam, I don’t really have much advice for them, other than OxiClean does wonders.

    I await any evidence you can bring from anything I’ve written previously that states that I think it is a good thing to increase or even keep the current level of Muslim immigration into the West or that stopping immigration would be oppressive.

    Speaking of putting folks to sleep. There’s a trend that I have noticed; again and again, these guys that pull off attacks in Europe have increasingly come across the law before. A disproportionate number have often been under custody and scrutiny some how end up pulling these stunts off – and – wow – right before elections:
    “The man believed to be responsible for Thursday’s terror attack in Paris was previously investigated for terrorism threats and jailed for shooting police officers, it has been confirmed.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-attack-isis-terror-champs-elysees-gunman-accomplice-police-manhunt-belgian-karim-cheurfi-a7694266.html

    Here’s another tune for you:
    Go to sleep. We’ll keep you safe from those bad Muslims. But we can’t do it right. Our hands are tied. We need more power. Oh, and more money, more money – just a little more money. Because we’re only here to keep you safe. You can trust us.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Oh yeah - don't forget this one - #16:
    "At least 75 dead, including children and women, as ISIL claims blast at Lal Shahbaz Qalandar shrine in Sindh province."
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/blast-hits-pakistan-lal-shahbaz-qalandar-sufi-shrine-170216144747128.html
    , @vinteuil
    "I await any evidence you can bring from anything I’ve written previously that states that I think it is a good thing to increase or even keep the current level of Muslim immigration into the West or that stopping immigration would be oppressive."

    If you would have no quarrel with a complete moratorium on muslim immigration into the West for the indefinite future, then we're on the same page.

    I hope you'd also agree that the West should stop taking sides in disputes between rival groups of Muslims. We should just let them fight it out among themselves and deal as best we can with whoever comes out on top.
    , @Uebersetzer
    IS reminds me of a late work by Christopher Marlowe, The Massacre At Paris. The text has been handed down in a corrupt form but its late 16th century setting of religious/political conflict is also in places strangely 21st century. In one scene an assassin is being recruited to take out the French king Henry III. His recruiter questions his motivation and the assassin replies (I am quoting from memory) "I have been a great sinner in my time and the deed is meritorious". The implication is that he has slipped up more than once in terms of Catholic teaching and this is how he is making up for it.
    IS etc. fighters, suicide bombers etc. rarely possess doctorates of Islamic theology, but frankly it would be surprising if they did. There have been reports of fighters joining IS, Nusra etc. for no loftier or more religious reason than that they get paid more. This is not the least of the reasons for defections from the nebulous FSA to them.
    The real religious zealots may be back at base camp, encouraging them. Or even in Saudi Arabia, running TV stations that pump out jihadist content.
    I alluded to the Sivas massacre, but even local councillor Cafer Ercakmak did not set fire to the building himself. He merely whipped up the crowd that did it, saying things like "Religion is a matter of what you do with your hands (din elden gidiyor)."
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  • @Uebersetzer
    Although approximately 120 Catholic priests were executed during her reign, as well as some Catholic laity, as Roman Catholicism was regarded as treasonable, and civil disabilities were not abolished until the 19th century for Catholics.

    I know, it’s a shame. Her two Stuart successors (or rather their governments) fined most of my g-g-etc. g’father’s property away for recusancy, a bit every year. He was tossed in jail (and got terminally sick, an old man) for it, some of his more devout sons fled abroad, and the absolute tin hat was put on it in Cromwell’s time, when the local vicar caught one particularly obstinate, returned and ordained son with his flock (a “hedge-priest”) and (after taking names) had him marched off by the mob (a.k.a. the Lord’s congregation, from the local Proddy wigwam) and eventually hanged, and his head stuck on a pike at the town cross (from where, bizarrely, it was eventually retrieved and ended up in a secret compartment of a local sympathizer’s house, only to be discovered by my mother’s great grandfather’s boss, a carpenter to whom her g-g etc. was apprenticed and working with at the time , in the late 19th century. Still kicking about somewhere, I believe. (The skull and jaw, that is, not her g-grandad. He was an obscure sort of Methodist, and chapel organist, when on the waggon). Maybe they should get us to do a dna test? Just for a laugh.
    Obviously I’m from one of the less zealous sons, who failed to see the attractions of steadfast attachment to Rome, celibacy and martyrdom. Or even sobriety or charity.

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    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    Was the unfortunate priest Hugh Green, executed in Dorchester, 1642? The local Protestant enthusiasts played football with his head afterwards.
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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @vinteuil
    "...a simple mention in a kids book in a Muslim country that ‘jihad is recommended’ as a general principle is hardly cause for major alarm..."

    Ah, Talha - how charmingly sweet you sing.

    Don't worry. Rest easy. All will be well. Go to sleep. Those guys shooting people and blowing stuff up? Not True Muslims. We sufi scholars are the True Muslims. Just look at all the writings that say so! Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Jihad? Don't be alarmed! It's nothing, really. Nothing at all. Just an internal struggle thing. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. And invite us. Invite us. Invite us.

    You're very good at what you do.

    Come on. When I was a kid I’d have loved to see pictures of Godfrey de Bouillon and Raymond of Toulouse (my namesake!) ; and though Ivanhoe can be taken as a Presbyterian tract no one does take it as anything but a glorification of the Crusaders and the romance of the period (and, heck, even the Church); ditto The Talisman. You don’t object to the singing of Partant pour la Syrie, do you?

    Note: Yes, I know the lyrics are inane. That’s not the point.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    https://www.amazon.com/Story-Crusades-Dover-History-Coloring/dp/0486451658
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @silviosilver

    It’s ‘patently obvious’ to you because you’re a creep who wants dead Jews. It does not actually exist.
     
    Normal people (ie not congenital liars) understand that indifference towards a thing is not the same thing as a desire for it.

    But you just keep on truckin, Artie. Your desperate lies are nothing if not entertaining.

    Normal people (ie not congenital liars) understand that indifference towards a thing is not the same thing as a desire for it.

    Normal people understand that someone who is ‘indifferent’ to hypothetically starving 500,000 children in retaliation for a subfraction of the Arab criminal element being inconvenienced is… a major creep.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Normal people understand that someone who is ‘indifferent’ to hypothetically starving 500,000 children in retaliation for a subfraction of the Arab criminal element being inconvenienced is… a major creep.
     
    So is Madeleine Albright a major creep? Or does she just not care about being seen as a major creep?
    , @silviosilver

    Normal people understand that someone who is ‘indifferent’ to hypothetically starving 500,000 children in retaliation
     
    The point is that excess deaths are a side-effect worth tolerating in the effort to end the Israeli state's criminally oppressive policies. No one actively wants the excess deaths.

    for a subfraction of the Arab criminal element being inconvenienced is
     
    The entirety of the Palestinian population suffers under Israeli oppression, not merely the freedom fighters (laughably dubbed the "criminal element"). (Worth pointing out: The Israeli "criminal element" - the settlers - pretty much enjoys free rein.)

    If pointing this out makes me a "creep," what term should we apply to someone who thinks genocide and dispossession are a mere "inconvenience"?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art Deco
    (I am thinking of the fact that is relatively new to me that most French people didn’t speak French for long after they all went off to battle together as Frenchmen).

    They spoke regional dialects or local patois. The northern regional dialects were not native anywhere outside of France. The southern Occitanian dialects were on a spectrum with those spoken in Catalonia and northeast Italy. However, in Italy, you saw the adoption of Tuscan as a court dialect, which did not apply in France and in France you had the adoption of the Paris dialect in the legal system, so that generated a linguistic boundary during the early modern period.

    Thanks. I shall put it my data base to flesh out the detail in my mini thesis No.57 that I shall probably have to pursue in another life :-)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    Or you could just do what Art Deco does; look it up on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is his brain - he has no other.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Hola Senor,

    It means 'jihad' can have completely valid application off or on the battlefield - for instance, the struggle in the upcoming month of Ramadan to rectify oneself is called mujaahada. And that Muslims use it also to mean spiritual striving (which is its general and initial application) as well as fighting (which is its specific and later application).

    I was pointing out that a simple mention in a kids book in a Muslim country that 'jihad is recommended' as a general principle is hardly cause for major alarm. It is simply more evidence that the people there are going to be shifting more towards more public expressions of the religion. Now if the coloring book had pictures of Daesh-style fighting and killing - then, yes, that is a cause for alarm.

    Peace.

    “…a simple mention in a kids book in a Muslim country that ‘jihad is recommended’ as a general principle is hardly cause for major alarm…”

    Ah, Talha – how charmingly sweet you sing.

    Don’t worry. Rest easy. All will be well. Go to sleep. Those guys shooting people and blowing stuff up? Not True Muslims. We sufi scholars are the True Muslims. Just look at all the writings that say so! Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Jihad? Don’t be alarmed! It’s nothing, really. Nothing at all. Just an internal struggle thing. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. And invite us. Invite us. Invite us.

    You’re very good at what you do.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Come on. When I was a kid I'd have loved to see pictures of Godfrey de Bouillon and Raymond of Toulouse (my namesake!) ; and though Ivanhoe can be taken as a Presbyterian tract no one does take it as anything but a glorification of the Crusaders and the romance of the period (and, heck, even the Church); ditto The Talisman. You don't object to the singing of Partant pour la Syrie, do you?

    Note: Yes, I know the lyrics are inane. That's not the point.
    , @Talha
    Hey vinteuil,

    You’re very good at what you do.
     
    Thanks - not much to it; having facts on your side and a coherent narrative is about all you need.

    I've noted there are two types of people I interact with here at UNZ:
    1) People who dismiss whatever I have to say because...taqiyya and stuff. I will not be able to convince these people of either my sincerity or anything I bring to the table.
    2) People who - even if they disagree with me - will at least give a chance to what I have to say. They appreciate the different perspective I bring to the table.

    If you are from the former, let me not waste your time and simply cut to the chase - peace.

    If the latter, read on...

    We Muslims are quite aware of the danger posed by the extremists (that's right, they are Muslims, but they are extremists). So I don't take this subject lightly. Here is a list and timeline and casualty count of 15 attacks carried out by extremists on the mausoleums of Sufis just in Pakistan (I'm not even including Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Nigeria, etc.):
    https://www.dawn.com/news/1315263

    So you think the extremists have the same credentials as 1400 years of qualified Muslim scholarship. You are entitled to your opinion. Let's see what an expert has to say.

    Prof. Oliver Roy (http://www.eui.eu/DepartmentsAndCentres/PoliticalAndSocialSciences/People/Professors/Roy.aspx) is one of the world's leading experts on Islamist movements, global jihadists, extremists and the current revival of Islam in the Muslim world. He has studied everything from the jihad in Afghanistan to the rise of Islam in the Balkans and wrote this seminal work:
    The Failure of Political Islam
    http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674291416&content=reviews

    His article "Who are the New Jihadis?" is required reading for anyone interested in the contemporary extremist movement:
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/13/who-are-the-new-jihadis

    He systematically researched the profiles of 100 people who either committed terrorism in France or Belgium or went to fight for Daesh from there. And he came up with certain archetypal characteristics:
    "Another common feature is the radicals’ distance from their immediate circle. They did not live in a particularly religious environment. Their relationship to the local mosque was ambivalent: either they attended episodically, or they were expelled for having shown disrespect for the local imam....To summarise: the typical radical is a young, second-generation immigrant or convert, very often involved in episodes of petty crime, with practically no religious education, but having a rapid and recent trajectory of conversion/reconversion, more often in the framework of a group of friends or over the internet than in the context of a mosque. The embrace of religion is rarely kept secret, but rather is exhibited, but it does not necessarily correspond to immersion in religious practice....As we have seen, jihadis do not descend into violence after poring over sacred texts. They do not have the necessary religious culture – and, above all, care little about having one. They do not become radicals because they have misread the texts or because they have been manipulated. They are radicals because they choose to be, because only radicalism appeals to them. No matter what database is taken as a reference, the paucity of religious knowledge among jihadis is glaring."

    So I guess we should just take it on face value that nihilists "with practically no religious education" are the best voices of Islamic interpretation. Yes, yes - how could I have missed that??!! The people who know the least about any given subject are, of course, its best experts!

    I guess if people are wetting their bed sheets because some coloring book in Turkey says jihad is a recommended concept in Islam, I don't really have much advice for them, other than OxiClean does wonders.

    I await any evidence you can bring from anything I've written previously that states that I think it is a good thing to increase or even keep the current level of Muslim immigration into the West or that stopping immigration would be oppressive.

    Speaking of putting folks to sleep. There's a trend that I have noticed; again and again, these guys that pull off attacks in Europe have increasingly come across the law before. A disproportionate number have often been under custody and scrutiny some how end up pulling these stunts off - and - wow - right before elections:
    "The man believed to be responsible for Thursday’s terror attack in Paris was previously investigated for terrorism threats and jailed for shooting police officers, it has been confirmed."
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-attack-isis-terror-champs-elysees-gunman-accomplice-police-manhunt-belgian-karim-cheurfi-a7694266.html

    Here's another tune for you:
    Go to sleep. We'll keep you safe from those bad Muslims. But we can't do it right. Our hands are tied. We need more power. Oh, and more money, more money - just a little more money. Because we're only here to keep you safe. You can trust us.

    Peace.

    , @Uebersetzer
    Mersin province where the colouring book appeared voted No in the official referendum figures, and clearly there is some pushing back at the Islamicisation of children. The reaction to a colouring book says something about the culture wars, along with other kinds of war, raging in Turkey right now.
    It could be that references to jihad are not meant to mean kids are being trained to cut the throats of non-Muslims or the insufficiently Muslim, but the term is as loaded now in Turkish as it is in English. Mersin is also not geographically remote from Syria, where "jihad" does have a clear meaning of kill the Infidels.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @silviosilver
    Lol, 'nonsense locution.' Dream on. It's patently obvious that it's an accurate description of the Israeli state terror enterprise to pretty much anyone who spends a solid few hours studying the issue. Not that it's even that hard - it's just that it can take a while to overcome the programming effect of fifty years of relentless Israel-first mendacity.

    vinteuil, snap out of it. The point is if it's fine for Albright to be dismissive about the deaths of Iraqi kids incurred in the name of the grand cause of removing Saddam, it's fine for me (and anyone else) to be dismissive about the deaths of Israeli kids incurred in the name of removing the moral sh-tstain that is zionism. There is certainly no obvious reason why anyone should value the lives of Israelis more than the lives Iraqis; indeed, there's good reason why they ought to be valued less - Israelis are supportive of zionism in a way that few Iraqis were supportive of Saddam.

    Do you think it was “fine for Albright to be dismissive about the deaths of Iraqi kids?”

    Read More
    • Replies: @silviosilver

    Do you think it was “fine for Albright to be dismissive about the deaths of Iraqi kids?”
     
    Not publicly. It was a public relations disaster.

    Morally, however, while it's distressing to be reminded of the sometimes unavoidable suffering that innocents must experience, which is a permanent feature of human existence, it's also comforting to think that, despite the endless PC noises we hear, there are still powerful decision-makers who are capable of being coldly calculating. Ultimately, of course, the suffering incurred by those Iraqis was supposed to lead to a world in which less such suffering would ever be necessary (a point missed by those who focus on the relative expediency of leaving Saddam in power).

    All of that is a rather long-winded way of saying that, yes, despite my dislike of her for other reasons, it was essentially "fine" for her to be dismissive.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Vladimir Brovkin
    All this has nothing to do with the original argument: that is to what extent Christianity promoted or obstructed progress. By progress we mean not capacity to make money or invent new technology, but capacity of a human being to think free, to be free. In that sense Christianity was the obstacle to progress until about 1400. Aristotle was of no interest to either Byzantines or Romans. As for Spanish inquisition I am appalled that you dare to defend that criminal organization, and forget its tens of thousands victims who were tortured to death. The Muslims and Jews will never forget its genocidal expulsion of 1482. These were the people who killed em mass and for pleasure in the name of Christ. That is truly perverse.

    “As for Spanish inquisition I am appalled that you dare to defend that criminal organization, and forget its tens of thousands victims who were tortured to death.”

    Nonsense. “…tens of thousands…tortured to death…”

    Where do you get your history from, dude?

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  • @Art Deco
    Reasonable criticisms of Israeli policy

    Are not to be found under Mr. Giraldi's byline.

    What's atypical about silviosilver is that he makes explicit what's implicit within the commentary by Israel's detractors. 'Criminal state of Israel' is a nonsense locution. Israel's a parliamentary state like most any other. Daily life and political discourse is intense and rude to an unusual degree, but that's just the local color; don't visit if it's too much for you. Israel has an unusual security situation, but it cannot do much about that other than make some incremental modifications. The Arab politicos aren't interested in any kind of comprehensive settlement and have rejected or sabotaged five separate efforts toward one since 1970. This isn't incongruent with public opinion in the West Bank and Gaza, where perhaps one-third favor some sort of formal settlement, about one-third insist that a seven-digit population of Arabs must have a franchise to settle in Israel, and one-third insist that Israel cease to exist. Arab partisans insist that Israel is treating Arabs 'unjustly' by putting up fencing and checkpoints and excluding contraband from Gaza. The objection is that Israel denies Arabs the means to kill Jews. That silviosilver favors the death of 20% of Israel's youth population because there are roadblocks between Arab bomb-fetishists and Israel's restaurants and because Israel won't let the Hamas mafia import munitions into Gaza makes plain that the object of priority is dead Jews. Philip Giraldi would approve of that.

    “Reasonable criticisms of Israeli policy…Are not to be found under Mr. Giraldi’s byline…[lots of stuff about silviosilver]…Philip Giraldi would approve of [dead Jews].”

    Well, I visit this site mostly to read Sailer, so I don’t read everything Giraldi writes…but in what I have read, I haven’t noticed any criticisms of Israel that struck me as outside the realm of reasonable discourse – let alone anything suggesting that he wants Jews dead.

    Could you point me toward a post where he crosses the line, in your opinion?

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  • @Anon

    revealed in the Meccan phase
     
    Does this mean more weight or less should be given it?

    Hola Senor,

    It means ‘jihad’ can have completely valid application off or on the battlefield – for instance, the struggle in the upcoming month of Ramadan to rectify oneself is called mujaahada. And that Muslims use it also to mean spiritual striving (which is its general and initial application) as well as fighting (which is its specific and later application).

    I was pointing out that a simple mention in a kids book in a Muslim country that ‘jihad is recommended’ as a general principle is hardly cause for major alarm. It is simply more evidence that the people there are going to be shifting more towards more public expressions of the religion. Now if the coloring book had pictures of Daesh-style fighting and killing – then, yes, that is a cause for alarm.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @vinteuil
    "...a simple mention in a kids book in a Muslim country that ‘jihad is recommended’ as a general principle is hardly cause for major alarm..."

    Ah, Talha - how charmingly sweet you sing.

    Don't worry. Rest easy. All will be well. Go to sleep. Those guys shooting people and blowing stuff up? Not True Muslims. We sufi scholars are the True Muslims. Just look at all the writings that say so! Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Jihad? Don't be alarmed! It's nothing, really. Nothing at all. Just an internal struggle thing. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. And invite us. Invite us. Invite us.

    You're very good at what you do.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Now you engineering types of European provenance can handily chart your dispossession:

    http://chic.caltech.edu/genealogy/tom-lee/

    It’s just a drop in the ocean.

    Good bye.

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  • @Talha
    Hey Ueber,

    Jihad is a very comprehensive word. I teach my young kids about instances of jihad; whether it is about struggling against one's own desires, speaking the truth in front of unjust authority or even on the battlefield. I tell them about the feats of men like Khalid ibn Walid (ra) and others. Doesn't mean I'm teaching them to go out and slaughter non-Muslims. Have non-Muslims seriously stopped telling their sons tales about battles and heroes from their history? Do they think this is a good thing to do? That would explain a lot of what I'm seeing actually in the loss of male identity.

    I looked at the link - it doesn't say anything about calling for jihad (in a military sense). It states jihad is recommended - which it always has been. I'd actually like to see the coloring page where it is mentioned - do you have any source that? Also, the title on the article is nonsense, it says:
    In Mersin, kindergarten students are given a book called "jihad"

    But later it makes it clear (as in the image) that the real title is "The World of Necmettin" or "Necemettin's World".

    In the Sufi circle I attend every week, the shaykh almost always starts with:
    "As for those who strive [jaahadoo] in Us, We will surely guide them to Our paths." 29:69

    Everyone knows this verse was revealed in the Meccan phase.

    Peace.

    revealed in the Meccan phase

    Does this mean more weight or less should be given it?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hola Senor,

    It means 'jihad' can have completely valid application off or on the battlefield - for instance, the struggle in the upcoming month of Ramadan to rectify oneself is called mujaahada. And that Muslims use it also to mean spiritual striving (which is its general and initial application) as well as fighting (which is its specific and later application).

    I was pointing out that a simple mention in a kids book in a Muslim country that 'jihad is recommended' as a general principle is hardly cause for major alarm. It is simply more evidence that the people there are going to be shifting more towards more public expressions of the religion. Now if the coloring book had pictures of Daesh-style fighting and killing - then, yes, that is a cause for alarm.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Uebersetzer
    Although approximately 120 Catholic priests were executed during her reign, as well as some Catholic laity, as Roman Catholicism was regarded as treasonable, and civil disabilities were not abolished until the 19th century for Catholics.

    Murderous tyrants are, taken as a group, not particularly religious. Big surprise there.

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  • @Uebersetzer
    http://sendika35.org/2017/04/mersinde-anaokulu-ogrencilerine-cihat-temali-boyama-kitabi/?utm_source=ReviveOldPost&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ReviveOldPost
    Controversy about a children's colouring book in Turkey's Mersin province calling for jihad. The claim that it is being distributed in schools has been denied.

    Hey Ueber,

    Jihad is a very comprehensive word. I teach my young kids about instances of jihad; whether it is about struggling against one’s own desires, speaking the truth in front of unjust authority or even on the battlefield. I tell them about the feats of men like Khalid ibn Walid (ra) and others. Doesn’t mean I’m teaching them to go out and slaughter non-Muslims. Have non-Muslims seriously stopped telling their sons tales about battles and heroes from their history? Do they think this is a good thing to do? That would explain a lot of what I’m seeing actually in the loss of male identity.

    I looked at the link – it doesn’t say anything about calling for jihad (in a military sense). It states jihad is recommended – which it always has been. I’d actually like to see the coloring page where it is mentioned – do you have any source that? Also, the title on the article is nonsense, it says:
    In Mersin, kindergarten students are given a book called “jihad”

    But later it makes it clear (as in the image) that the real title is “The World of Necmettin” or “Necemettin’s World”.

    In the Sufi circle I attend every week, the shaykh almost always starts with:
    “As for those who strive [jaahadoo] in Us, We will surely guide them to Our paths.” 29:69

    Everyone knows this verse was revealed in the Meccan phase.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Anon

    revealed in the Meccan phase
     
    Does this mean more weight or less should be given it?
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  • @Art Deco
    Dream on. It’s patently obvious that it’s an accurate description of the Israeli state terror enterprise to pretty much anyone who spends a solid few hours studying the issue.

    It's 'patently obvious' to you because you're a creep who wants dead Jews. It does not actually exist.

    It’s ‘patently obvious’ to you because you’re a creep who wants dead Jews. It does not actually exist.

    Normal people (ie not congenital liars) understand that indifference towards a thing is not the same thing as a desire for it.

    But you just keep on truckin, Artie. Your desperate lies are nothing if not entertaining.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Normal people (ie not congenital liars) understand that indifference towards a thing is not the same thing as a desire for it.

    Normal people understand that someone who is 'indifferent' to hypothetically starving 500,000 children in retaliation for a subfraction of the Arab criminal element being inconvenienced is... a major creep.
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  • @Logan
    Quite right. This happened all across the world. People in most of the world simply did not think of themselves as members of "nations" connected by ethnicity and language into distinct and separate blocks.

    One of the most interesting areas where this played out, to my mind at least, is in Macedonia. The southern Balkans had been inhabited for centuries by Christian Slavic dhimmis oppressed by the Turks.

    Some of these considered themselves to be Serbs on the north and west, and others Bulgars, on the south and west. In between lay Macedonia, speaking a language that was close to Bulgarian in the east and close to Serbian on the west, with a continuum between.

    Three "outside" groups competed for the allegiance of the Macedonians and control of the region: the Greeks, who based their claim on religion and on somewhat irrelevant appeals to ancient history (Alex the Great and all that); Bulgars and Serbs. A four-sided guerilla/civil war, terrorism and propaganda conflict ensued. (The Turks were still officially in control) Spiced up eventually by the two Balkan Wars, which expelled the Turks and left most of Macedonia in the hands of the Serbs and Greeks. Most of the people in the area probably leaned towards Bulgaria.

    My point is simply that the southern Balkans weren't "nations" at all until this controversy over which "nation they belonged to" began. Outside forces (mostly) wound up imposing a map of national borders on a region to which the notion had until recently been completely alien. Leaving lots of people on all sides as "minorities" in "nations" where they had simply been the inhabitants until recently.

    Then dominant groups in each "nation" began trying to assimilate the minorities, which led to resistance, which led to oppression, appeals to their national brethren in neighboring countries. And so on and so forth.

    This is exactly the scenario still going on in the Middle East, including Palestine/Israel, as it has since WWI. It's the inevitable consequence of trying to impose the ethnic/linguistic sovereign nation state concept on a region where the inhabitants don't fit. Not that this stops anyone from trying.

    Palestinians fit exactly into this. None of them thought of themselves as such until faced with competition from the Zionist idea. Which itself was a reaction to the Jews of Europe being non-national minorities everywhere they lived. They (well, some of them) wanted their own nation-state even if they had to move to another continent to get it.

    Palestinians fit exactly into this. None of them thought of themselves as such until faced with competition from the Zionist idea.

    Yeah, it’s just straightforward ethnogenesis. There’s nothing really noteworthy about that.

    The important point to focus is that they’d be just as oppressed by Zionism no matter what they called themselves. It’s not as if Jews had it in for them and targeted them for expulsion and oppression specifically because they chose the name “Palestinians” – as though if they’d called themselves “Palmyrans” they would have been left alone.

    Wizard,

    So you might say it is quite an achievement for the Israelis to have created a Palestinian nationality. :)

    I’m glad that Palestinian suffering is all a big joke to you.

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  • http://sendika35.org/2017/04/mersinde-anaokulu-ogrencilerine-cihat-temali-boyama-kitabi/?utm_source=ReviveOldPost&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ReviveOldPost

    Controversy about a children’s colouring book in Turkey’s Mersin province calling for jihad. The claim that it is being distributed in schools has been denied.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Ueber,

    Jihad is a very comprehensive word. I teach my young kids about instances of jihad; whether it is about struggling against one's own desires, speaking the truth in front of unjust authority or even on the battlefield. I tell them about the feats of men like Khalid ibn Walid (ra) and others. Doesn't mean I'm teaching them to go out and slaughter non-Muslims. Have non-Muslims seriously stopped telling their sons tales about battles and heroes from their history? Do they think this is a good thing to do? That would explain a lot of what I'm seeing actually in the loss of male identity.

    I looked at the link - it doesn't say anything about calling for jihad (in a military sense). It states jihad is recommended - which it always has been. I'd actually like to see the coloring page where it is mentioned - do you have any source that? Also, the title on the article is nonsense, it says:
    In Mersin, kindergarten students are given a book called "jihad"

    But later it makes it clear (as in the image) that the real title is "The World of Necmettin" or "Necemettin's World".

    In the Sufi circle I attend every week, the shaykh almost always starts with:
    "As for those who strive [jaahadoo] in Us, We will surely guide them to Our paths." 29:69

    Everyone knows this verse was revealed in the Meccan phase.

    Peace.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Expletive Deleted

    Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him against the liberty of his fellow-men.
     
    This seems to be the mark of greatness in rulers. Call it "repressive tolerance" or what you will.
    Here's another;

    'My dear and loyal subject, I do not wish to open windows into men's souls.' - Elizabeth Tudor, Queen of England (a poor and besieged heretic statelet off the north coast of Europe)
     
    Of course it all went wrong after that, mateys. Or did it?

    Although approximately 120 Catholic priests were executed during her reign, as well as some Catholic laity, as Roman Catholicism was regarded as treasonable, and civil disabilities were not abolished until the 19th century for Catholics.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Murderous tyrants are, taken as a group, not particularly religious. Big surprise there.
    , @Expletive Deleted
    I know, it's a shame. Her two Stuart successors (or rather their governments) fined most of my g-g-etc. g'father's property away for recusancy, a bit every year. He was tossed in jail (and got terminally sick, an old man) for it, some of his more devout sons fled abroad, and the absolute tin hat was put on it in Cromwell's time, when the local vicar caught one particularly obstinate, returned and ordained son with his flock (a "hedge-priest") and (after taking names) had him marched off by the mob (a.k.a. the Lord's congregation, from the local Proddy wigwam) and eventually hanged, and his head stuck on a pike at the town cross (from where, bizarrely, it was eventually retrieved and ended up in a secret compartment of a local sympathizer's house, only to be discovered by my mother's great grandfather's boss, a carpenter to whom her g-g etc. was apprenticed and working with at the time , in the late 19th century. Still kicking about somewhere, I believe. (The skull and jaw, that is, not her g-grandad. He was an obscure sort of Methodist, and chapel organist, when on the waggon). Maybe they should get us to do a dna test? Just for a laugh.
    Obviously I'm from one of the less zealous sons, who failed to see the attractions of steadfast attachment to Rome, celibacy and martyrdom. Or even sobriety or charity.
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  • @Wizard of Oz
    It could be interesting then to look for the circumstances of the actual or apparent exceptions. - and the anomalies within the national states (I am thinking of the fact that is relatively new to me that most French people didn't speak French for long after they all went off to battle together as Frenchmen). The outstanding apparent exception that came to mind is Japan. But then I move on to the thought that tribalism or some kind of group solidatity is just about universal but we shouldn't be surprised if most people for most of history haven't been nationalists because a state which does things for them, even much less than health care, education and old age pensions, is just not something they think of, and there is no suggestion that they are going to get a vote or any other say in government. So you might say it is quite an achievement for the Israelis to have created a Palestinian nationality :-)

    (I am thinking of the fact that is relatively new to me that most French people didn’t speak French for long after they all went off to battle together as Frenchmen).

    They spoke regional dialects or local patois. The northern regional dialects were not native anywhere outside of France. The southern Occitanian dialects were on a spectrum with those spoken in Catalonia and northeast Italy. However, in Italy, you saw the adoption of Tuscan as a court dialect, which did not apply in France and in France you had the adoption of the Paris dialect in the legal system, so that generated a linguistic boundary during the early modern period.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Thanks. I shall put it my data base to flesh out the detail in my mini thesis No.57 that I shall probably have to pursue in another life :-)
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  • http://sendika35.org/2017/04/hayir-ve-otesi-referandum-raporu-olu-secmene-evet-oyu-kullandirmislar/?utm_source=ReviveOldPost&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ReviveOldPost

    Pressure group in Turkey presents evidence of dead voters in referendum miraculously managing to vote Yes.
    Not unique to Turkey of course. In the close 1960 Kennedy-Nixon presidential race, there were reportedly inmates of cemeteries in Texas who did not let death obstruct their votes for Kennedy – it may have had something to do with the organisational skills of Lyndon Johnson.

    http://sendika35.org/2017/04/avrupa-konseyi-gozlemcisi-25-milyon-oy-manipule-edilmis-olabilir/?utm_source=ReviveOldPost&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ReviveOldPost

    Austrian Council of Europe spokesperson says 2.5 million votes may have been manipulated.

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  • @silviosilver
    Lol, 'nonsense locution.' Dream on. It's patently obvious that it's an accurate description of the Israeli state terror enterprise to pretty much anyone who spends a solid few hours studying the issue. Not that it's even that hard - it's just that it can take a while to overcome the programming effect of fifty years of relentless Israel-first mendacity.

    vinteuil, snap out of it. The point is if it's fine for Albright to be dismissive about the deaths of Iraqi kids incurred in the name of the grand cause of removing Saddam, it's fine for me (and anyone else) to be dismissive about the deaths of Israeli kids incurred in the name of removing the moral sh-tstain that is zionism. There is certainly no obvious reason why anyone should value the lives of Israelis more than the lives Iraqis; indeed, there's good reason why they ought to be valued less - Israelis are supportive of zionism in a way that few Iraqis were supportive of Saddam.

    Dream on. It’s patently obvious that it’s an accurate description of the Israeli state terror enterprise to pretty much anyone who spends a solid few hours studying the issue.

    It’s ‘patently obvious’ to you because you’re a creep who wants dead Jews. It does not actually exist.

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    • Replies: @silviosilver

    It’s ‘patently obvious’ to you because you’re a creep who wants dead Jews. It does not actually exist.
     
    Normal people (ie not congenital liars) understand that indifference towards a thing is not the same thing as a desire for it.

    But you just keep on truckin, Artie. Your desperate lies are nothing if not entertaining.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Vladimir Brovkin
    All this has nothing to do with the original argument: that is to what extent Christianity promoted or obstructed progress. By progress we mean not capacity to make money or invent new technology, but capacity of a human being to think free, to be free. In that sense Christianity was the obstacle to progress until about 1400. Aristotle was of no interest to either Byzantines or Romans. As for Spanish inquisition I am appalled that you dare to defend that criminal organization, and forget its tens of thousands victims who were tortured to death. The Muslims and Jews will never forget its genocidal expulsion of 1482. These were the people who killed em mass and for pleasure in the name of Christ. That is truly perverse.

    By progress we mean not capacity to make money or invent new technology, but capacity of a human being to think free, to be free. In that sense Christianity was the obstacle to progress until about 1400.

    No, you mean that. And what you mean is that Christianity is an obstacle to secular culture. Secularization is ‘progress’ in your addled head, not in others’ heads.

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  • @Logan
    Quite right. This happened all across the world. People in most of the world simply did not think of themselves as members of "nations" connected by ethnicity and language into distinct and separate blocks.

    One of the most interesting areas where this played out, to my mind at least, is in Macedonia. The southern Balkans had been inhabited for centuries by Christian Slavic dhimmis oppressed by the Turks.

    Some of these considered themselves to be Serbs on the north and west, and others Bulgars, on the south and west. In between lay Macedonia, speaking a language that was close to Bulgarian in the east and close to Serbian on the west, with a continuum between.

    Three "outside" groups competed for the allegiance of the Macedonians and control of the region: the Greeks, who based their claim on religion and on somewhat irrelevant appeals to ancient history (Alex the Great and all that); Bulgars and Serbs. A four-sided guerilla/civil war, terrorism and propaganda conflict ensued. (The Turks were still officially in control) Spiced up eventually by the two Balkan Wars, which expelled the Turks and left most of Macedonia in the hands of the Serbs and Greeks. Most of the people in the area probably leaned towards Bulgaria.

    My point is simply that the southern Balkans weren't "nations" at all until this controversy over which "nation they belonged to" began. Outside forces (mostly) wound up imposing a map of national borders on a region to which the notion had until recently been completely alien. Leaving lots of people on all sides as "minorities" in "nations" where they had simply been the inhabitants until recently.

    Then dominant groups in each "nation" began trying to assimilate the minorities, which led to resistance, which led to oppression, appeals to their national brethren in neighboring countries. And so on and so forth.

    This is exactly the scenario still going on in the Middle East, including Palestine/Israel, as it has since WWI. It's the inevitable consequence of trying to impose the ethnic/linguistic sovereign nation state concept on a region where the inhabitants don't fit. Not that this stops anyone from trying.

    Palestinians fit exactly into this. None of them thought of themselves as such until faced with competition from the Zionist idea. Which itself was a reaction to the Jews of Europe being non-national minorities everywhere they lived. They (well, some of them) wanted their own nation-state even if they had to move to another continent to get it.

    It could be interesting then to look for the circumstances of the actual or apparent exceptions. – and the anomalies within the national states (I am thinking of the fact that is relatively new to me that most French people didn’t speak French for long after they all went off to battle together as Frenchmen). The outstanding apparent exception that came to mind is Japan. But then I move on to the thought that tribalism or some kind of group solidatity is just about universal but we shouldn’t be surprised if most people for most of history haven’t been nationalists because a state which does things for them, even much less than health care, education and old age pensions, is just not something they think of, and there is no suggestion that they are going to get a vote or any other say in government. So you might say it is quite an achievement for the Israelis to have created a Palestinian nationality :-)

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    (I am thinking of the fact that is relatively new to me that most French people didn’t speak French for long after they all went off to battle together as Frenchmen).

    They spoke regional dialects or local patois. The northern regional dialects were not native anywhere outside of France. The southern Occitanian dialects were on a spectrum with those spoken in Catalonia and northeast Italy. However, in Italy, you saw the adoption of Tuscan as a court dialect, which did not apply in France and in France you had the adoption of the Paris dialect in the legal system, so that generated a linguistic boundary during the early modern period.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    How about "the Palestinians began thinking of themselves as an oppressed nationality in response". Compare and Contrast. (25 marks).

    Quite right. This happened all across the world. People in most of the world simply did not think of themselves as members of “nations” connected by ethnicity and language into distinct and separate blocks.

    One of the most interesting areas where this played out, to my mind at least, is in Macedonia. The southern Balkans had been inhabited for centuries by Christian Slavic dhimmis oppressed by the Turks.

    Some of these considered themselves to be Serbs on the north and west, and others Bulgars, on the south and west. In between lay Macedonia, speaking a language that was close to Bulgarian in the east and close to Serbian on the west, with a continuum between.

    Three “outside” groups competed for the allegiance of the Macedonians and control of the region: the Greeks, who based their claim on religion and on somewhat irrelevant appeals to ancient history (Alex the Great and all that); Bulgars and Serbs. A four-sided guerilla/civil war, terrorism and propaganda conflict ensued. (The Turks were still officially in control) Spiced up eventually by the two Balkan Wars, which expelled the Turks and left most of Macedonia in the hands of the Serbs and Greeks. Most of the people in the area probably leaned towards Bulgaria.

    My point is simply that the southern Balkans weren’t “nations” at all until this controversy over which “nation they belonged to” began. Outside forces (mostly) wound up imposing a map of national borders on a region to which the notion had until recently been completely alien. Leaving lots of people on all sides as “minorities” in “nations” where they had simply been the inhabitants until recently.

    Then dominant groups in each “nation” began trying to assimilate the minorities, which led to resistance, which led to oppression, appeals to their national brethren in neighboring countries. And so on and so forth.

    This is exactly the scenario still going on in the Middle East, including Palestine/Israel, as it has since WWI. It’s the inevitable consequence of trying to impose the ethnic/linguistic sovereign nation state concept on a region where the inhabitants don’t fit. Not that this stops anyone from trying.

    Palestinians fit exactly into this. None of them thought of themselves as such until faced with competition from the Zionist idea. Which itself was a reaction to the Jews of Europe being non-national minorities everywhere they lived. They (well, some of them) wanted their own nation-state even if they had to move to another continent to get it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    It could be interesting then to look for the circumstances of the actual or apparent exceptions. - and the anomalies within the national states (I am thinking of the fact that is relatively new to me that most French people didn't speak French for long after they all went off to battle together as Frenchmen). The outstanding apparent exception that came to mind is Japan. But then I move on to the thought that tribalism or some kind of group solidatity is just about universal but we shouldn't be surprised if most people for most of history haven't been nationalists because a state which does things for them, even much less than health care, education and old age pensions, is just not something they think of, and there is no suggestion that they are going to get a vote or any other say in government. So you might say it is quite an achievement for the Israelis to have created a Palestinian nationality :-)
    , @silviosilver

    Palestinians fit exactly into this. None of them thought of themselves as such until faced with competition from the Zionist idea.
     
    Yeah, it's just straightforward ethnogenesis. There's nothing really noteworthy about that.

    The important point to focus is that they'd be just as oppressed by Zionism no matter what they called themselves. It's not as if Jews had it in for them and targeted them for expulsion and oppression specifically because they chose the name "Palestinians" - as though if they'd called themselves "Palmyrans" they would have been left alone.

    Wizard,


    So you might say it is quite an achievement for the Israelis to have created a Palestinian nationality. :)
     
    I'm glad that Palestinian suffering is all a big joke to you.
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  • And last summer for the first time I came upon Islamists on the beautiful Chicago Lake Front prostrating themselves across our Lake Michigan, bowing to the East.

    I took it as a personal insult as they were basically mooning me and showing me their arses.

    The women or whatever creatures were behind their masks were just milling about. I informed these creatures that it was the 21st century and not the 8th century and we had strict laws against wearing masks in public. These laws came from the days of Klan terrorism.

    The creature suggested that I had Klan sympathies.

    I didn’t respond to this typical ad hominem attack.

    This is our country, our culture – we make the rules.

    Think we need to use Russian tactics in responding to Islamic terrorism. The relatives and enablers of suicide bombers need to be targeted, removed.

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  • I agree with Mr. Derbyshire.

    The European oriented Turkish cities in ~ 1960 were very good places. I would say the same about Iran/Persia in the 1960s, early 1970s.

    One key is to see how women dress. If they dress in a fashionable attractive, but not slutty way – that it’s a good place. If they dress in a Black tent and are banned from showing any of their bodies or their face in public – it’s a bad place.

    Turkey is going backward, going down in a similar negative way that South Africa outside of the Western Cape is going down.

    In many places, Democracy doesn’t work as the mobs of low IQ, superstitious, envious, ignorant people form the majority and elected horrors like Robert Mugabe or the retro Islamists now dominated the former secular republic of Turkey.

    I’m looking out of my Chicago City apartment on the near South Side of Chicago. To the East is beautiful Lake Michigan. to the North the beautiful Chicago Skyline…. to the West and the South is…..

    Places where democracy doesn’t work.

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  • @Art Deco
    Reasonable criticisms of Israeli policy

    Are not to be found under Mr. Giraldi's byline.

    What's atypical about silviosilver is that he makes explicit what's implicit within the commentary by Israel's detractors. 'Criminal state of Israel' is a nonsense locution. Israel's a parliamentary state like most any other. Daily life and political discourse is intense and rude to an unusual degree, but that's just the local color; don't visit if it's too much for you. Israel has an unusual security situation, but it cannot do much about that other than make some incremental modifications. The Arab politicos aren't interested in any kind of comprehensive settlement and have rejected or sabotaged five separate efforts toward one since 1970. This isn't incongruent with public opinion in the West Bank and Gaza, where perhaps one-third favor some sort of formal settlement, about one-third insist that a seven-digit population of Arabs must have a franchise to settle in Israel, and one-third insist that Israel cease to exist. Arab partisans insist that Israel is treating Arabs 'unjustly' by putting up fencing and checkpoints and excluding contraband from Gaza. The objection is that Israel denies Arabs the means to kill Jews. That silviosilver favors the death of 20% of Israel's youth population because there are roadblocks between Arab bomb-fetishists and Israel's restaurants and because Israel won't let the Hamas mafia import munitions into Gaza makes plain that the object of priority is dead Jews. Philip Giraldi would approve of that.

    Lol, ‘nonsense locution.’ Dream on. It’s patently obvious that it’s an accurate description of the Israeli state terror enterprise to pretty much anyone who spends a solid few hours studying the issue. Not that it’s even that hard – it’s just that it can take a while to overcome the programming effect of fifty years of relentless Israel-first mendacity.

    vinteuil, snap out of it. The point is if it’s fine for Albright to be dismissive about the deaths of Iraqi kids incurred in the name of the grand cause of removing Saddam, it’s fine for me (and anyone else) to be dismissive about the deaths of Israeli kids incurred in the name of removing the moral sh-tstain that is zionism. There is certainly no obvious reason why anyone should value the lives of Israelis more than the lives Iraqis; indeed, there’s good reason why they ought to be valued less – Israelis are supportive of zionism in a way that few Iraqis were supportive of Saddam.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Dream on. It’s patently obvious that it’s an accurate description of the Israeli state terror enterprise to pretty much anyone who spends a solid few hours studying the issue.

    It's 'patently obvious' to you because you're a creep who wants dead Jews. It does not actually exist.
    , @vinteuil
    Do you think it was "fine for Albright to be dismissive about the deaths of Iraqi kids?"
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  • Vladimir Brovkin [AKA "Vlad"] says:
    @Art Deco
    Christiany was never a block to progress? What about Spain under Inquisition? Actually for the first 14 centuries Christianity was exactly that a block to Progress. Only with Renaissance that challenged the Church and Reformation that challenged Religion and finally the Age of Enlightenment that overthrew the power of both did the West begin its free thought.

    The Inquisition was concerned with theological questions, not technologies, and its procedures were as conscientious as any court in operation at the time; there's a reason that moral panics of the sort that led to witch-burning were absent in Iberia, and that's because Spain had an elaborate legal architecture for sorting such claims.

    As we speak, specialists in Medieval history identify three notable economic and demographic troughs: in in the 7th century, one in the 10th century, and one in the 14th century. It's a strange thesis to attribute them to cultural phenomena and not what's in front of your nose: epidemics and political disorders. The Renaissance was an occasion for innovations in the arts and humanities; innovation per se had not been absent in the High Middle Ages. (See the development of Gothic architecture and scholastic philosophy). The Reformation challenged the Church, not religious thought in general. The promotion of secular culture was an 18th and 19th century project whose epicenter was in France (wherein economic development was less robust than in the United States and Britain, where enforced secularism and Grand-Orient lodges were absent).

    All this has nothing to do with the original argument: that is to what extent Christianity promoted or obstructed progress. By progress we mean not capacity to make money or invent new technology, but capacity of a human being to think free, to be free. In that sense Christianity was the obstacle to progress until about 1400. Aristotle was of no interest to either Byzantines or Romans. As for Spanish inquisition I am appalled that you dare to defend that criminal organization, and forget its tens of thousands victims who were tortured to death. The Muslims and Jews will never forget its genocidal expulsion of 1482. These were the people who killed em mass and for pleasure in the name of Christ. That is truly perverse.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    By progress we mean not capacity to make money or invent new technology, but capacity of a human being to think free, to be free. In that sense Christianity was the obstacle to progress until about 1400.

    No, you mean that. And what you mean is that Christianity is an obstacle to secular culture. Secularization is 'progress' in your addled head, not in others' heads.
    , @vinteuil
    "As for Spanish inquisition I am appalled that you dare to defend that criminal organization, and forget its tens of thousands victims who were tortured to death."

    Nonsense. "...tens of thousands...tortured to death..."

    Where do you get your history from, dude?
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  • https://www.turkishminute.com/2017/04/23/erdogan-guard-threatens-woman-with-rape-on-social-media/

    Erdogan fired all his bodyguards and brought in new ones after the failed coup last year, so presumably this specimen has the seal of approval. Until the next purge wave, anyway…

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  • @Logan
    The Ottomans had no particular reason to oppress the Kurds. They, at least before the Young Turks, categorized people by religion, not ethnicity or nationality. The Kurds were just Muslims that spoke a different language.

    The western and incompatible idea of nationalism meant that the Kurds and Turks were suddenly "different nationalities," and should have their own nation-states. Abruptly, the Kurds were members of a foreign nation and the Turks had to suppress them to maintain their own nation-state. The Kurds soon began thinking of themselves as an oppressed nationality in response.

    How about “the Palestinians began thinking of themselves as an oppressed nationality in response”. Compare and Contrast. (25 marks).

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    • Replies: @Logan
    Quite right. This happened all across the world. People in most of the world simply did not think of themselves as members of "nations" connected by ethnicity and language into distinct and separate blocks.

    One of the most interesting areas where this played out, to my mind at least, is in Macedonia. The southern Balkans had been inhabited for centuries by Christian Slavic dhimmis oppressed by the Turks.

    Some of these considered themselves to be Serbs on the north and west, and others Bulgars, on the south and west. In between lay Macedonia, speaking a language that was close to Bulgarian in the east and close to Serbian on the west, with a continuum between.

    Three "outside" groups competed for the allegiance of the Macedonians and control of the region: the Greeks, who based their claim on religion and on somewhat irrelevant appeals to ancient history (Alex the Great and all that); Bulgars and Serbs. A four-sided guerilla/civil war, terrorism and propaganda conflict ensued. (The Turks were still officially in control) Spiced up eventually by the two Balkan Wars, which expelled the Turks and left most of Macedonia in the hands of the Serbs and Greeks. Most of the people in the area probably leaned towards Bulgaria.

    My point is simply that the southern Balkans weren't "nations" at all until this controversy over which "nation they belonged to" began. Outside forces (mostly) wound up imposing a map of national borders on a region to which the notion had until recently been completely alien. Leaving lots of people on all sides as "minorities" in "nations" where they had simply been the inhabitants until recently.

    Then dominant groups in each "nation" began trying to assimilate the minorities, which led to resistance, which led to oppression, appeals to their national brethren in neighboring countries. And so on and so forth.

    This is exactly the scenario still going on in the Middle East, including Palestine/Israel, as it has since WWI. It's the inevitable consequence of trying to impose the ethnic/linguistic sovereign nation state concept on a region where the inhabitants don't fit. Not that this stops anyone from trying.

    Palestinians fit exactly into this. None of them thought of themselves as such until faced with competition from the Zionist idea. Which itself was a reaction to the Jews of Europe being non-national minorities everywhere they lived. They (well, some of them) wanted their own nation-state even if they had to move to another continent to get it.

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  • @vinteuil
    "Mr. Giraldi’s columns attract great clientele for the Unz Review."

    Mr. Deco: with all respect, you're just being silly.

    Reasonable criticisms of Israeli policy will, of course, attract comment by fanatical jew-haters.

    Just as reasonable criticisms of Russian policy will attract fanatical russo-phobic commentary.

    And so on and so forth.

    You can't judge a post by the replies it gets.

    Reasonable criticisms of Israeli policy

    Are not to be found under Mr. Giraldi’s byline.

    What’s atypical about silviosilver is that he makes explicit what’s implicit within the commentary by Israel’s detractors. ‘Criminal state of Israel’ is a nonsense locution. Israel’s a parliamentary state like most any other. Daily life and political discourse is intense and rude to an unusual degree, but that’s just the local color; don’t visit if it’s too much for you. Israel has an unusual security situation, but it cannot do much about that other than make some incremental modifications. The Arab politicos aren’t interested in any kind of comprehensive settlement and have rejected or sabotaged five separate efforts toward one since 1970. This isn’t incongruent with public opinion in the West Bank and Gaza, where perhaps one-third favor some sort of formal settlement, about one-third insist that a seven-digit population of Arabs must have a franchise to settle in Israel, and one-third insist that Israel cease to exist. Arab partisans insist that Israel is treating Arabs ‘unjustly’ by putting up fencing and checkpoints and excluding contraband from Gaza. The objection is that Israel denies Arabs the means to kill Jews. That silviosilver favors the death of 20% of Israel’s youth population because there are roadblocks between Arab bomb-fetishists and Israel’s restaurants and because Israel won’t let the Hamas mafia import munitions into Gaza makes plain that the object of priority is dead Jews. Philip Giraldi would approve of that.

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    • Replies: @silviosilver
    Lol, 'nonsense locution.' Dream on. It's patently obvious that it's an accurate description of the Israeli state terror enterprise to pretty much anyone who spends a solid few hours studying the issue. Not that it's even that hard - it's just that it can take a while to overcome the programming effect of fifty years of relentless Israel-first mendacity.

    vinteuil, snap out of it. The point is if it's fine for Albright to be dismissive about the deaths of Iraqi kids incurred in the name of the grand cause of removing Saddam, it's fine for me (and anyone else) to be dismissive about the deaths of Israeli kids incurred in the name of removing the moral sh-tstain that is zionism. There is certainly no obvious reason why anyone should value the lives of Israelis more than the lives Iraqis; indeed, there's good reason why they ought to be valued less - Israelis are supportive of zionism in a way that few Iraqis were supportive of Saddam.

    , @vinteuil
    "Reasonable criticisms of Israeli policy...Are not to be found under Mr. Giraldi’s byline...[lots of stuff about silviosilver]...Philip Giraldi would approve of [dead Jews]."

    Well, I visit this site mostly to read Sailer, so I don't read everything Giraldi writes...but in what I have read, I haven't noticed any criticisms of Israel that struck me as outside the realm of reasonable discourse - let alone anything suggesting that he wants Jews dead.

    Could you point me toward a post where he crosses the line, in your opinion?
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  • @Art Deco
    Mr. Giraldi's columns attract great clientele for the Unz Review.

    “Mr. Giraldi’s columns attract great clientele for the Unz Review.”

    Mr. Deco: with all respect, you’re just being silly.

    Reasonable criticisms of Israeli policy will, of course, attract comment by fanatical jew-haters.

    Just as reasonable criticisms of Russian policy will attract fanatical russo-phobic commentary.

    And so on and so forth.

    You can’t judge a post by the replies it gets.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Reasonable criticisms of Israeli policy

    Are not to be found under Mr. Giraldi's byline.

    What's atypical about silviosilver is that he makes explicit what's implicit within the commentary by Israel's detractors. 'Criminal state of Israel' is a nonsense locution. Israel's a parliamentary state like most any other. Daily life and political discourse is intense and rude to an unusual degree, but that's just the local color; don't visit if it's too much for you. Israel has an unusual security situation, but it cannot do much about that other than make some incremental modifications. The Arab politicos aren't interested in any kind of comprehensive settlement and have rejected or sabotaged five separate efforts toward one since 1970. This isn't incongruent with public opinion in the West Bank and Gaza, where perhaps one-third favor some sort of formal settlement, about one-third insist that a seven-digit population of Arabs must have a franchise to settle in Israel, and one-third insist that Israel cease to exist. Arab partisans insist that Israel is treating Arabs 'unjustly' by putting up fencing and checkpoints and excluding contraband from Gaza. The objection is that Israel denies Arabs the means to kill Jews. That silviosilver favors the death of 20% of Israel's youth population because there are roadblocks between Arab bomb-fetishists and Israel's restaurants and because Israel won't let the Hamas mafia import munitions into Gaza makes plain that the object of priority is dead Jews. Philip Giraldi would approve of that.

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  • @silviosilver
    Speaking for myself, if sanctions imposed on the criminal state of Israel in an attempt to encourage it to treat justly with its Arab population were to cause the excess deaths of 500,000 Israeli kids, I would not be too concerned about it.

    You “would not be too concerned about the excess deaths of 500,000 Israeli kids?”

    Oh, yeah – that’s just the sort of chatter that’s sure to win lots of converts to your cause.

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  • @silviosilver
    Speaking for myself, if sanctions imposed on the criminal state of Israel in an attempt to encourage it to treat justly with its Arab population were to cause the excess deaths of 500,000 Israeli kids, I would not be too concerned about it.

    Mr. Giraldi’s columns attract great clientele for the Unz Review.

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    • Replies: @vinteuil
    "Mr. Giraldi’s columns attract great clientele for the Unz Review."

    Mr. Deco: with all respect, you're just being silly.

    Reasonable criticisms of Israeli policy will, of course, attract comment by fanatical jew-haters.

    Just as reasonable criticisms of Russian policy will attract fanatical russo-phobic commentary.

    And so on and so forth.

    You can't judge a post by the replies it gets.
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  • @Mr. Anon
    All you say there may indeed be true. I never put much stock in those numbers. And yet, Allbright did not dispute it. She was Secretary of State. Presumably she was in a position to know what burdens the sanctions were imposing on the people of Iraq. She could have taken that as an opportunity to set the record straight." At the very least, she was being pretty stupid. If there is a public perception of her that she is a callous bitch (and she probably is), she has only herself to blame for it.

    Speaking for myself, if sanctions imposed on the criminal state of Israel in an attempt to encourage it to treat justly with its Arab population were to cause the excess deaths of 500,000 Israeli kids, I would not be too concerned about it.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Mr. Giraldi's columns attract great clientele for the Unz Review.
    , @vinteuil
    You "would not be too concerned about the excess deaths of 500,000 Israeli kids?"

    Oh, yeah - that's just the sort of chatter that's sure to win lots of converts to your cause.
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  • @Vladimir Brovkin
    Christiany was never a block to progress? What about Spain under Inquisition? Actually for the first 14 centuries Christianity was exactly that a block to Progress. Only with Renaissance that challenged the Church and Reformation that challenged Religion and finally the Age of Enlightenment that overthrew the power of both did the West begin its free thought.

    Christiany was never a block to progress? What about Spain under Inquisition? Actually for the first 14 centuries Christianity was exactly that a block to Progress. Only with Renaissance that challenged the Church and Reformation that challenged Religion and finally the Age of Enlightenment that overthrew the power of both did the West begin its free thought.

    The Inquisition was concerned with theological questions, not technologies, and its procedures were as conscientious as any court in operation at the time; there’s a reason that moral panics of the sort that led to witch-burning were absent in Iberia, and that’s because Spain had an elaborate legal architecture for sorting such claims.

    As we speak, specialists in Medieval history identify three notable economic and demographic troughs: in in the 7th century, one in the 10th century, and one in the 14th century. It’s a strange thesis to attribute them to cultural phenomena and not what’s in front of your nose: epidemics and political disorders. The Renaissance was an occasion for innovations in the arts and humanities; innovation per se had not been absent in the High Middle Ages. (See the development of Gothic architecture and scholastic philosophy). The Reformation challenged the Church, not religious thought in general. The promotion of secular culture was an 18th and 19th century project whose epicenter was in France (wherein economic development was less robust than in the United States and Britain, where enforced secularism and Grand-Orient lodges were absent).

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    • Replies: @Vladimir Brovkin
    All this has nothing to do with the original argument: that is to what extent Christianity promoted or obstructed progress. By progress we mean not capacity to make money or invent new technology, but capacity of a human being to think free, to be free. In that sense Christianity was the obstacle to progress until about 1400. Aristotle was of no interest to either Byzantines or Romans. As for Spanish inquisition I am appalled that you dare to defend that criminal organization, and forget its tens of thousands victims who were tortured to death. The Muslims and Jews will never forget its genocidal expulsion of 1482. These were the people who killed em mass and for pleasure in the name of Christ. That is truly perverse.
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  • @Vladimir Brovkin
    Christiany was never a block to progress? What about Spain under Inquisition? Actually for the first 14 centuries Christianity was exactly that a block to Progress. Only with Renaissance that challenged the Church and Reformation that challenged Religion and finally the Age of Enlightenment that overthrew the power of both did the West begin its free thought.

    http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/medmyths.html

    http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/renaissance.html

    Age of Enlightenment

    Really. Quite a contributor to science, that Rousseau. Not to mention Voltaire.

    Reformation that challenged Religion

    True, but I doubt the Reformers saw it that way.

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  • Estimates of deaths due to sanctions

    Estimates of excess deaths during the sanctions vary widely, use different methodologies and cover different time-frames. Some estimates include (some of them include effects of the Gulf War in the estimate):

    Mohamed M. Ali, John Blacker, and Gareth Jones estimate between 400,000 and 500,000 excess under-5 deaths.

    UNICEF: 500,000 children (including sanctions, collateral effects of war). “[As of 1999] [c]hildren under 5 years of age are dying at more than twice the rate they were ten years ago.” (As is customary, this report was based on a survey conducted in cooperation with the Iraqi government and by local authorities in the provinces not controlled by the Iraqi government)

    Former U.N. Humanitarian Coordinator in Iraq Denis Halliday: “Two hundred thirty-nine thousand children 5 years old and under” as of 1998.

    “Probably … 170,000 children”, Project on Defense Alternatives, “The Wages of War”, 20 October 2003

    350,000 excess deaths among children “even using conservative estimates”, Slate Explainer, “Are 1 Million Children Dying in Iraq?”, 9. October 2001.

    “Richard Garfield, a Columbia University nursing professor … cited the figures 345,000-530,000 for the entire 1990-2002 period” for sanctions-related excess deaths.

    Zaidi, S. and Fawzi, M. C. S., (1995) The Lancet British medical journal: 567,000 children. A co-author (Zaidi) did a follow-up study in 1996, finding “much lower … mortality rates … for unknown reasons.”

    Amatzia Baram, Director of the Center for Iraq Studies at the University of Haifa, reported almost no difference in the rate of Iraq’s population growth between 1977 and 1987 (35.8 percent) and between 1987 and 1997 (35.1 percent), suggesting that the sanctions-related death rate is lower than reported, while also stating “Every child who suffers from malnutrition as a result of the embargo is a tragedy”.

    UN-sponsored surveys taken after the overthrow of Saddam’s regime did not show an increase in Iraq’s infant mortality rate under the sanctions regime, contradicting earlier Iraqi-collected data

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq

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  • Vladimir Brovkin [AKA "Vlad"] says:

    Christiany was never a block to progress? What about Spain under Inquisition? Actually for the first 14 centuries Christianity was exactly that a block to Progress. Only with Renaissance that challenged the Church and Reformation that challenged Religion and finally the Age of Enlightenment that overthrew the power of both did the West begin its free thought.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/medmyths.html

    http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/renaissance.html

    Age of Enlightenment
     
    Really. Quite a contributor to science, that Rousseau. Not to mention Voltaire.

    Reformation that challenged Religion
     
    True, but I doubt the Reformers saw it that way.
    , @Art Deco
    Christiany was never a block to progress? What about Spain under Inquisition? Actually for the first 14 centuries Christianity was exactly that a block to Progress. Only with Renaissance that challenged the Church and Reformation that challenged Religion and finally the Age of Enlightenment that overthrew the power of both did the West begin its free thought.

    The Inquisition was concerned with theological questions, not technologies, and its procedures were as conscientious as any court in operation at the time; there's a reason that moral panics of the sort that led to witch-burning were absent in Iberia, and that's because Spain had an elaborate legal architecture for sorting such claims.

    As we speak, specialists in Medieval history identify three notable economic and demographic troughs: in in the 7th century, one in the 10th century, and one in the 14th century. It's a strange thesis to attribute them to cultural phenomena and not what's in front of your nose: epidemics and political disorders. The Renaissance was an occasion for innovations in the arts and humanities; innovation per se had not been absent in the High Middle Ages. (See the development of Gothic architecture and scholastic philosophy). The Reformation challenged the Church, not religious thought in general. The promotion of secular culture was an 18th and 19th century project whose epicenter was in France (wherein economic development was less robust than in the United States and Britain, where enforced secularism and Grand-Orient lodges were absent).

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Logan
    The Ottomans had no particular reason to oppress the Kurds. They, at least before the Young Turks, categorized people by religion, not ethnicity or nationality. The Kurds were just Muslims that spoke a different language.

    The western and incompatible idea of nationalism meant that the Kurds and Turks were suddenly "different nationalities," and should have their own nation-states. Abruptly, the Kurds were members of a foreign nation and the Turks had to suppress them to maintain their own nation-state. The Kurds soon began thinking of themselves as an oppressed nationality in response.

    Hey Logan,

    Good post. Yes, the Ottoman rule over much of the other Muslim ethnic groups was not really a problem until the bug of ethnic nationalism bit them as well as others.
    “Confronted with the choice of being annexed at some point by Persia or formally accepting the supremacy of the Ottoman sultan in exchange for a very wide autonomy, the Kurdish leaders opted for this second solution and thus Kurdistan, or more exactly its countless fiefs and principalities entered the Ottoman bosom by the path of diplomacy. This particular status was to assure Kurdistan about three centuries of peace. The Ottomans controlled some strategic garrisons on the Kurdish territory, but the rest of the country was governed by the Kurdish lords and princes…Despite interferences from time to time from the central power, this particular status, to the satisfaction of the Kurds and the Ottomans, functioned without any major hitch until the beginning of the XIXth century.”

    http://www.institutkurde.org/en/institute/who_are_the_kurds.php

    Peace.

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  • @Art Deco
    It was a nonsense figure the reporter either pulled out of her ass or got from some aid official who pulled it out of her ass, and the contention is that excess deaths due to sanctions over a five year period in a country with a population of about 20 million are going to be so large as to incorporate 500,000 child deaths. And, of course, the government who distributes the largesse bears no responsibility at all for this. Of course that's a completely unserious thesis.

    All you say there may indeed be true. I never put much stock in those numbers. And yet, Allbright did not dispute it. She was Secretary of State. Presumably she was in a position to know what burdens the sanctions were imposing on the people of Iraq. She could have taken that as an opportunity to set the record straight.” At the very least, she was being pretty stupid. If there is a public perception of her that she is a callous bitch (and she probably is), she has only herself to blame for it.

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    • Replies: @silviosilver
    Speaking for myself, if sanctions imposed on the criminal state of Israel in an attempt to encourage it to treat justly with its Arab population were to cause the excess deaths of 500,000 Israeli kids, I would not be too concerned about it.
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  • @anonymous

    Mr. Derbyshire keeps saying ‘they’, ‘they’…has he read up on Turkish history of that era? No one in the West would accept what Ataturk and the secularists forced down the throats of the Turkish people and then built a cult of personality around himself. Imagine if some Western leader who liked Arab culture said; OK guys, we’re going to force all men to wear turbans and switch our script from Latin to Arabic letters, etc. From a Muslim perspective – “cuck” doesn’t even begin to describe that level of undignified obeisance. This is way beyond the modernizing reforms that Muhammad Ali initiated in Egypt.
     
    I get this to some extent, but you have to realize, also, that Turks are not Arabs: there is, too, an internal struggle to define themselves as Western or Eastern, much as Anglicans struggle to define themselves as Protestants or Catholics. This is really more as if Romania during the Communist era decided to adopt the Cyrillic alphabet, in addition to what they did do. Though if you want a comparison more to your taste, there is the matter of the default dress code in Republican Madrid by which to wear a jacket and tie was to risk death.

    This distinction goes back quite a long way.

    Hola Senor,

    Thanks for that reference though I’m not sure how much weight I give to medieval Turks claiming they are from the same stock as the Franks. But I completely agree that they (especially the Ottoman elite) were mixed in with European blood for sure (many of them were born of European concubines). So I can definitely appreciate the ambivalent feelings about where their identity lies. It seems though that the European secular culture was forced from top down, where the Islam is coming from the grassroots as Mr. Derbyshire points out.

    The Turks were never Arabs, this is true, but they came into the Muslim world as conquerors. Executing the last Arab (Abbasid) caliph in Egypt and taking leadership of the Muslim world. They were always distinguished from Arabs in dress, language, mannerisms and even their expression of Islam. So whatever they adopted culturally was not from a position of subjugation.

    Turkey has been the bridge between East and West for quite some time – and will likely remain so for the foreseeable future. Hopefully they can play a role that they are uniquely fit for in an identity that suits them and that is to the benefit of their neighbors.

    Peace.

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  • @Almost Missouri
    Commander Ataturk to his exhausted and outnumbered soldiers at Gallipoli:

    "Men, I am not ordering you to attack. I am ordering you to die. In the time that it takes us to die, other forces and commanders can come and take our place."
     
    Veteran Ataturk to the kin of the enemy he defeated:

    "Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives ... You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours ... You, the mothers who sent their sons from faraway countries, wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
     
    President Ataturk to theocratic pretenders:

    "I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the principles of democracy, the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him against the liberty of his fellow-men."
     
    Indeed.

    Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him against the liberty of his fellow-men.

    This seems to be the mark of greatness in rulers. Call it “repressive tolerance” or what you will.
    Here’s another;

    ‘My dear and loyal subject, I do not wish to open windows into men’s souls.’ – Elizabeth Tudor, Queen of England (a poor and besieged heretic statelet off the north coast of Europe)

    Of course it all went wrong after that, mateys. Or did it?

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    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    Although approximately 120 Catholic priests were executed during her reign, as well as some Catholic laity, as Roman Catholicism was regarded as treasonable, and civil disabilities were not abolished until the 19th century for Catholics.
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  • @Sunbeam
    Geez, Turkey is known for having politics that is... Byzantine. I do not know much about the history of this country, it just has never piqued my interest.

    But did Erdogan really have a choice? I mean really?

    Whatever the Kurds are, with regards to Oriental despotism or something, they are incompatible with the rest of Turkey as a tribe.

    I think that this is the driving force behind this move. Not rural versus urban, secular versus religious, or Turkey's national zeitgeist reasserting itself.

    These guys aren't going to go away. They are only going to get stronger.

    Big trouble is coming I think for Turkey. Something like Lebanon but larger of course.

    Democracy is a luxury item they can't afford at the moment.

    I mean imagine if Scotland had about 30% of the population of the UK and growing. And they were feeling their oats and all the kids were wearing kilts, painting their faces blue, and talking about William Wallace all the time. And oh yeah, Ireland proper is growing just as fast and they want to be reunited with their brothers in Scotland as one people in one nation.

    The English would probably say "Good riddance mate," or something like that. But I don't think that would have been an option even for Ataturk if he were alive today towards the Kurds... for reasons.

    Turkish Islamism out-bred secularism. It took 94 years. But in the long run, yes, demography is destiny.

    Demography needs feeding. Or it’s just fishbait, in the Keynesian long run. Talking of Scotland, I’ll see ye in the Sumburgh Roost, all lines out, the glass falling, one February afternoon. Best bend to the oars, boys. It’s not mere ordinary water on a chart out there.

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  • @Mr. Anon
    "No, you’re not factual, or moral."

    And what was wrong in what Avery posted? Albright was confronted with a figure of half a million dead children. That figure may or may not be true (obviously, numbers stemming from Saddam Hussein's regime are probbly self-interested and not necessarily believable). But Albright did not contradict that figure.

    She didn't say: "Oh, no, no, it's nowhere near that much". She took the number at face value and said that she thought it was worth it.

    By the way, I have not noticed that you are either factual or moral either.

    It was a nonsense figure the reporter either pulled out of her ass or got from some aid official who pulled it out of her ass, and the contention is that excess deaths due to sanctions over a five year period in a country with a population of about 20 million are going to be so large as to incorporate 500,000 child deaths. And, of course, the government who distributes the largesse bears no responsibility at all for this. Of course that’s a completely unserious thesis.

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    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    All you say there may indeed be true. I never put much stock in those numbers. And yet, Allbright did not dispute it. She was Secretary of State. Presumably she was in a position to know what burdens the sanctions were imposing on the people of Iraq. She could have taken that as an opportunity to set the record straight." At the very least, she was being pretty stupid. If there is a public perception of her that she is a callous bitch (and she probably is), she has only herself to blame for it.
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  • @Ali Choudhury
    I am not entirely sure I would call secular Turkey particularly tolerant, it was the secular government led by Menderes that launched pogroms against Greek minorities in the 50s. The Kemalists stomped Kurds harder than the Ottomans ever did and have been at war with them since the founding of the republic.

    And I would not call a society an open one where the military thought it fit and proper to depose five elected governments, cracked down on whoever it did not like with state security courts and made it as difficult as possible for pious Muslims to enter the public space.

    Erdogan by contrast has probably had better relations with the Kurds than any past Turkish leader, doesn't hate most of his countrymen unlike the secularists and has delivered economic growth and development over a long period. Destructive rifts with Israel and Russia have been abandoned. He has gone rather loopy and paranoid in the last few years but isn't the devil the Western press makes him out to be.

    The Ottomans had no particular reason to oppress the Kurds. They, at least before the Young Turks, categorized people by religion, not ethnicity or nationality. The Kurds were just Muslims that spoke a different language.

    The western and incompatible idea of nationalism meant that the Kurds and Turks were suddenly “different nationalities,” and should have their own nation-states. Abruptly, the Kurds were members of a foreign nation and the Turks had to suppress them to maintain their own nation-state. The Kurds soon began thinking of themselves as an oppressed nationality in response.

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    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Logan,

    Good post. Yes, the Ottoman rule over much of the other Muslim ethnic groups was not really a problem until the bug of ethnic nationalism bit them as well as others.
    “Confronted with the choice of being annexed at some point by Persia or formally accepting the supremacy of the Ottoman sultan in exchange for a very wide autonomy, the Kurdish leaders opted for this second solution and thus Kurdistan, or more exactly its countless fiefs and principalities entered the Ottoman bosom by the path of diplomacy. This particular status was to assure Kurdistan about three centuries of peace. The Ottomans controlled some strategic garrisons on the Kurdish territory, but the rest of the country was governed by the Kurdish lords and princes…Despite interferences from time to time from the central power, this particular status, to the satisfaction of the Kurds and the Ottomans, functioned without any major hitch until the beginning of the XIXth century.”

    http://www.institutkurde.org/en/institute/who_are_the_kurds.php

    Peace.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    How about "the Palestinians began thinking of themselves as an oppressed nationality in response". Compare and Contrast. (25 marks).
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  • @Uebersetzer
    The problem is that the referendum hardly bears this out - even on the official figures, Erdogan barely won, and he lost in the big cities of Turkey. Inhabitants of Turkey have been heading from the countryside to the cities for decades. Minus manipulation and cheating, Erdogan may even have lost the referendum. The referendum in fact suggested that the high-fertility, pious rural hinterlands in Turkey are not all-powerful. Indeed, for all I know, the author wrote before polling day in the expectation of 60% Yes, rather than the messier "official" result.

    Turkey’s fertility rate, like most countries, has fallen off a cliff. Probably below replacement at this point. Obviously, the rural areas are probably providing most of the births now, but their birth rate has also fallen dramatically.

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  • @Anon
    Why not? It seems to me as if there is a missing term; in fact, it seems much like this bit of lucid reportage of a speech of Bernard Shaw.

    Mr. Derbyshire’s point was that religion and rationality are not necessarily in conflict. America in the 1960s was, in many ways, a high-point of scientific rationalism, and yet it was a still rather religious country.

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  • @Mr. Anon

    This ‘story’ that Yank USA ‘travelled to the moon’ 9 times ( with 6 ‘landings’) during 1968-72 is absurdly long in the tooth now, serious scientists do not believe it (tho afraid to say so)
     
    Which "serious scientists" do not believe it? Name them.

    No one ever went back in 45 frackin’ years?
     
    It was difficult and expensive, and there's not much point in going other than to be the first to do it.

    All the original ‘moon landing video’ tapes LOST by NASA?"
     
    So? Those videos have been reproduced and were disseminated all over the globe. The video tape wouldn't have lasted forever anyway. And they are not even the best images produced on the Moon - that was on 16 mm film.

    The boxes of original ‘moon flight tech’ documents LOST by NASA as well? HA!
     
    There were no "boxes of original moon flight tech documents". There was a lot of documentation on the Saturn/Apollo vehicles. Some of it no longer exists. Much of it does. The same could be said of the Ford Edsel or the DC-3. Was the Edsel a hoax? The DC-3?

    The late Dave McGowan pretty well buried the ‘moon-landing’ fable in his thorough ‘Wagging the Moondoggie’ … CIA film studios at the notorious Laurel Canyon etc, clearly fake ‘moon photos’ & video, technical-scientific impossibility etc
     
    He did no such thing. Dave McGowan was a nitwit. His videos on the subject are mind-numbingly stupid. So are you.

    Scientists privately laugh about the ‘moon landing’ scam, but add under their breath, “It’s bad for your career to question any ‘science’ backed by big government money
     
    Which scientists? Name them. What have they said, and how do you know this?

    You have revealed yourself to be a cretin. Good job. You also got an "Agree" from "Truth". That's some praise, right there. Do you share his flat-earth beliefs?

    Was the Edsel a hoax?

    Ford wishes.

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  • Reason apparently can’t what nation states are for.

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  • @Art Deco
    Current elite strategy is to push out native blacks to suburbs like Ferguson, Missouri so that elites and their immigrant allies can further colonize prime city real estate.

    Mr. Sailer's affection for guys-in-a-room-snookering-the-rubes scenarios is his least attractive feature. Would be a pity if you caught this bug from him.

    Mr. Sailer’s affection for guys-in-a-room-snookering-the-rubes scenarios is his least attractive feature.

    You mean, for noticing how much of the world works?

    Your least attractive feature is………..every feature you present here.

    Mr. Sailer and Mr. Derbyshire have many interesting and true observations to offer. You offer nothing but assertions based on googling factoids, in the style of a modern debate-squad, and offered up with smug condescension and an inflated sense of your worth (anything greater than zero is inflated in your case).

    People come here to read them, not you. You are nothing but a stupid, insufferable prig. Your presense here was never welcome. Your absence here was unlamented.

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  • @Art Deco
    No, you're not factual, or moral.

    “No, you’re not factual, or moral.”

    And what was wrong in what Avery posted? Albright was confronted with a figure of half a million dead children. That figure may or may not be true (obviously, numbers stemming from Saddam Hussein’s regime are probbly self-interested and not necessarily believable). But Albright did not contradict that figure.

    She didn’t say: “Oh, no, no, it’s nowhere near that much”. She took the number at face value and said that she thought it was worth it.

    By the way, I have not noticed that you are either factual or moral either.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    It was a nonsense figure the reporter either pulled out of her ass or got from some aid official who pulled it out of her ass, and the contention is that excess deaths due to sanctions over a five year period in a country with a population of about 20 million are going to be so large as to incorporate 500,000 child deaths. And, of course, the government who distributes the largesse bears no responsibility at all for this. Of course that's a completely unserious thesis.
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  • @Mr. Anon
    It's not a non sequitur at all.

    Why not? It seems to me as if there is a missing term; in fact, it seems much like this bit of lucid reportage of a speech of Bernard Shaw.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    Mr. Derbyshire's point was that religion and rationality are not necessarily in conflict. America in the 1960s was, in many ways, a high-point of scientific rationalism, and yet it was a still rather religious country.
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  • @Brabantian
    Funny that John Derbyshire actually claims to believe

    we put men on the Moon. Heck, even the astronauts were religious.
     
    This 'story' that Yank USA 'travelled to the moon' 9 times ( with 6 'landings') during 1968-72 is absurdly long in the tooth now, serious scientists do not believe it (tho afraid to say so)

    No one ever went back in 45 frackin' years? All the original 'moon landing video' tapes LOST by NASA? The boxes of original 'moon flight tech' documents LOST by NASA as well? HA!

    The late Dave McGowan pretty well buried the 'moon-landing' fable in his thorough 'Wagging the Moondoggie' ... CIA film studios at the notorious Laurel Canyon etc, clearly fake 'moon photos' & video, technical-scientific impossibility etc

    Scientists privately laugh about the 'moon landing' scam, but add under their breath, "It's bad for your career to question any 'science' backed by big government money"

    For the laughter of everyone, whether moon landing 'believers' or not ... here is the 'original moon landing tape' with its foul-language 'astronaut talk' 'un-edited' 2min50
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIkHLO93lCA

    This ‘story’ that Yank USA ‘travelled to the moon’ 9 times ( with 6 ‘landings’) during 1968-72 is absurdly long in the tooth now, serious scientists do not believe it (tho afraid to say so)

    Which “serious scientists” do not believe it? Name them.

    No one ever went back in 45 frackin’ years?

    It was difficult and expensive, and there’s not much point in going other than to be the first to do it.

    All the original ‘moon landing video’ tapes LOST by NASA?”

    So? Those videos have been reproduced and were disseminated all over the globe. The video tape wouldn’t have lasted forever anyway. And they are not even the best images produced on the Moon – that was on 16 mm film.

    The boxes of original ‘moon flight tech’ documents LOST by NASA as well? HA!

    There were no “boxes of original moon flight tech documents”. There was a lot of documentation on the Saturn/Apollo vehicles. Some of it no longer exists. Much of it does. The same could be said of the Ford Edsel or the DC-3. Was the Edsel a hoax? The DC-3?

    The late Dave McGowan pretty well buried the ‘moon-landing’ fable in his thorough ‘Wagging the Moondoggie’ … CIA film studios at the notorious Laurel Canyon etc, clearly fake ‘moon photos’ & video, technical-scientific impossibility etc

    He did no such thing. Dave McGowan was a nitwit. His videos on the subject are mind-numbingly stupid. So are you.

    Scientists privately laugh about the ‘moon landing’ scam, but add under their breath, “It’s bad for your career to question any ‘science’ backed by big government money

    Which scientists? Name them. What have they said, and how do you know this?

    You have revealed yourself to be a cretin. Good job. You also got an “Agree” from “Truth”. That’s some praise, right there. Do you share his flat-earth beliefs?

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    • Replies: @Anon

    Was the Edsel a hoax?
     
    Ford wishes.
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  • @Brabantian
    Funny that John Derbyshire actually claims to believe

    we put men on the Moon. Heck, even the astronauts were religious.
     
    This 'story' that Yank USA 'travelled to the moon' 9 times ( with 6 'landings') during 1968-72 is absurdly long in the tooth now, serious scientists do not believe it (tho afraid to say so)

    No one ever went back in 45 frackin' years? All the original 'moon landing video' tapes LOST by NASA? The boxes of original 'moon flight tech' documents LOST by NASA as well? HA!

    The late Dave McGowan pretty well buried the 'moon-landing' fable in his thorough 'Wagging the Moondoggie' ... CIA film studios at the notorious Laurel Canyon etc, clearly fake 'moon photos' & video, technical-scientific impossibility etc

    Scientists privately laugh about the 'moon landing' scam, but add under their breath, "It's bad for your career to question any 'science' backed by big government money"

    For the laughter of everyone, whether moon landing 'believers' or not ... here is the 'original moon landing tape' with its foul-language 'astronaut talk' 'un-edited' 2min50
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIkHLO93lCA

    Go into the stacks in the Engineering library at McGill University. You’ll find hardbound collections of technical documents on the Apollo spacecraft. Spread your arms wide and you’ll encompass about six feet of them. Then move over to the righmost volume and do it again. You’ll encompass another six feet of them. Repeat until you are bored.

    I lost myself in part of one volume for half a day, back in 1980. It described the architecture of two of the onboard computers. They had a design that you or I or Mr Derbyshire has never seen before or after, but one that John would recognize instantly as a clever design for a clunky old machine that was a bastardization of integrated circuits and magnetic core memory. It had eight instructions. But there was a leading shift or escape to some more instructions.

    First thing to go through a programmer’s mind: three bit opcode. Faster on the painfully slow computers of the day. The first eight instructions would have been the most commonly executed. Fifteen bit word plus a parity bit. So 12 bit addresses.

    That was one section of one volume of a wall of Apollo documentation. I had opened several at random until I found one that I could understand. Do you really think that back in the 60s the government published thousands of plausible engineering papers just so a curious kid would stumble across one at random in an obscure corner of a library basement in the 1980s?

    You’ve seen the space shuttle launched. You’ve probably seen the 1965 Mariner 4 closeup photos of Mars (check them against photos from the last few years). You probably make use of a satellite everyday of your life without realizing it. But you are not going to go to the nearest engineering library of a major university to confirm what I have written, because … how old are you? Too old to lurk on the web from your mother’s basement. Let me guess. You think thimerosal in vaccines causes autism. You think that the melting point of steel is 1500 C proves the WTC collapse was an inside job. You think constantly about the grassy knoll.

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  • anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    They established a new capital city far from the old imperial metropolis. They scrapped the Arabic alphabet for the Latin one. Men were to wear jackets and pants, women dresses. There were property rights and a free press, a parliament to legislate…and so on.
     
    Mr. Derbyshire keeps saying 'they', 'they'...has he read up on Turkish history of that era? No one in the West would accept what Ataturk and the secularists forced down the throats of the Turkish people and then built a cult of personality around himself. Imagine if some Western leader who liked Arab culture said; OK guys, we're going to force all men to wear turbans and switch our script from Latin to Arabic letters, etc. From a Muslim perspective - "cuck" doesn't even begin to describe that level of undignified obeisance. This is way beyond the modernizing reforms that Muhammad Ali initiated in Egypt.

    Also "free press" - you have got to be kidding me...

    And then we get his claims about Islamic metaphysics - sigh.

    Whatever is, is good, because God wills it.
     
    Correction; God wills everything that exists into existence, the good and the bad, and we accept it with gratitude or patience - this is basic aqeedah 101. This does not negate man's initiative/intention.

    I followed the link and it seems Mr. Derbyshire is still mired in thinking about the universe from a Newtonian deterministic perspective. That is all fine and dandy on the surface and helps at the macro-level. However, he seems to have completely been oblivious to the change that occurred once we split the atom (which is surprising given his background in mathematics). The basic fundamental building blocks of the universe certainly do not operate at a deterministic level - rather they work probabilistically. So we have this contradictory phenomenal world which seems to behave one way on the surface, but at the very base level of existence is eerily unpredictable:
    "As the theory of the atom, quantum mechanics is perhaps the most successful theory in the history of science. It enables physicists, chemists, and technicians to calculate and predict the outcome of a vast number of experiments and to create new and advanced technology based on the insight into the behavior of atomic objects. But it is also a theory that challenges our imagination. It seems to violate some fundamental principles of classical physics, principles that eventually have become a part of western common sense since the rise of the modern worldview in the Renaissance. The aim of any metaphysical interpretation of quantum mechanics is to account for these violations..."
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-copenhagen/

    "In quantum mechanics, things are different. There are no quantum states that assign definite values to all physical quantities, and probabilities are built into the standard formulation of the theory...Whether we can or can expect to be able to go beyond this noncontroversial core, and take the theory to be more than a means for calculating probabilities of outcomes of experiments, is an issue that remains a topic of contemporary philosophical discussion."
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-issues/

    The Ash'ari/Maturidi (Sunni) creed a a completely valid interpretation of the phenomena:
    "The most widely accepted is the Copenhagen Interpretation. Similarities between this interpretation of quantum theory and the thought of al Ghazali will be the focus of this paper. Initially, it might appear unlikely that there would be any significant similarities between the thought of al-Ghazali (eleventh century CE) and the ideas of quantum theory in the twentieth century. Although separated by culture as well as several centuries, many of the same ideas are incorporated into these two bodies of thought. Important similarities a seen in the role of causality in the natural world, the nature of physical objects, and the extent to which the behavior of objects is predictable."
    https://www.ghazali.org/articles/harding-V10N2-Summer-93.pdf

    Unless someone thinks the Copenhagen conclusions will be completely overturned.

    The Muslim world had its "Peak Reason" era - that was under the Mutazilites who were ultra-rationalists and who tried to force their rationalism upon everyone using Abbassid state power (look up the 'Mihna'). They were unable to succeed and have - ever since - been defeated in public debates. The last serious challenge being that of Ibn Rushd (ra). This is not to say that these rationalist interpretations are outside of Islam - they aren't, they have simply been declared incorrect and un-Orthodox by the majority of scholars. The Shiah generally lean towards Mutazilite conclusions on causality.

    stifling obscurantism, hostile to all openness and free inquiry
     
    Nonsense - just because the Muslim world didn't come to the same conclusions as the West doesn't mean we didn't have the philosophical debates.

    Peace.

    Mr. Derbyshire keeps saying ‘they’, ‘they’…has he read up on Turkish history of that era? No one in the West would accept what Ataturk and the secularists forced down the throats of the Turkish people and then built a cult of personality around himself. Imagine if some Western leader who liked Arab culture said; OK guys, we’re going to force all men to wear turbans and switch our script from Latin to Arabic letters, etc. From a Muslim perspective – “cuck” doesn’t even begin to describe that level of undignified obeisance. This is way beyond the modernizing reforms that Muhammad Ali initiated in Egypt.

    I get this to some extent, but you have to realize, also, that Turks are not Arabs: there is, too, an internal struggle to define themselves as Western or Eastern, much as Anglicans struggle to define themselves as Protestants or Catholics. This is really more as if Romania during the Communist era decided to adopt the Cyrillic alphabet, in addition to what they did do. Though if you want a comparison more to your taste, there is the matter of the default dress code in Republican Madrid by which to wear a jacket and tie was to risk death.

    This distinction goes back quite a long way.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hola Senor,

    Thanks for that reference though I'm not sure how much weight I give to medieval Turks claiming they are from the same stock as the Franks. But I completely agree that they (especially the Ottoman elite) were mixed in with European blood for sure (many of them were born of European concubines). So I can definitely appreciate the ambivalent feelings about where their identity lies. It seems though that the European secular culture was forced from top down, where the Islam is coming from the grassroots as Mr. Derbyshire points out.

    The Turks were never Arabs, this is true, but they came into the Muslim world as conquerors. Executing the last Arab (Abbasid) caliph in Egypt and taking leadership of the Muslim world. They were always distinguished from Arabs in dress, language, mannerisms and even their expression of Islam. So whatever they adopted culturally was not from a position of subjugation.

    Turkey has been the bridge between East and West for quite some time - and will likely remain so for the foreseeable future. Hopefully they can play a role that they are uniquely fit for in an identity that suits them and that is to the benefit of their neighbors.

    Peace.
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  • @Anon

    Christianity ... has never been much of a hindrance to the development of open societies or modernism. The mid-20th-century United States was very religious; but we put men on the Moon. Heck, even the astronauts were religious.
     
    Non sequitur much?

    It’s not a non sequitur at all.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Why not? It seems to me as if there is a missing term; in fact, it seems much like this bit of lucid reportage of a speech of Bernard Shaw.
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  • Turkey IQ average at 90. ok you knew that was coming.

    Thus the Turks are the equivalent of our mexers, also at 90. Except for religion and certain propensities that we find problematic.

    ” Peak Reason” I love it.

    Which gets me thinking. Western Reason today, under the authority of Liberalism’s Abstractions of Equality Everywhere, is simply insane.

    What is happening now is the totalitarian universalism of Equality is falling away. The Rehabilitated Reason will do a re-set, and start with particulars, rather than what it does now, starting with generals.

    Reason, like science generally, starts at the beginning, not the end.

    Call it the End of Liberalism. The new Beginning commences the counter-revolution.

    Joe Webb

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  • @Avery
    {That’s an irrelevant point.}
    In your opinion.

    {Also, see the work Justin McCarthy has done....}

    I am quite familiar with the Denialist's revisionist work.
    We know him well and he is confronted everywhere the swine goes.
    His work has been thoroughly debunked by AG scholars.
    He is a paid whore for the Turk AG Denial machine.

    The fact that you think his writings have any basis in fact tells me all I need to know about you and your ilk.
    And I am the one who is supposedly 'vicious'?
    What are you, savage mongrel, denying the mass murders, abductions, deliberate starvation, forcible Turkification and Islamization or 100s of 1,000s of Armenian children?




    on the historical demography of late-Ottoman and early Kemalist Turkey for a delineation of the problems with this historiography.

    He’s a meticulous historical demographer who may know more about Turkey’s population than any person in the English-speaking world. You’re a sectarian peddler of internet fictions.

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