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    As many of you know when you have two adjacent demes, breeding populations, they often rapidly equilibrate in gene frequencies if they were originally distinct. There are plenty of good concrete examples of this. The Hui of China are Muslims who speak local Chinese dialects. The most probable root of this community goes back to...
  • * The Banu Hilal case appears to be one of profound linguistic impact (three hundred years later than I had realized the Berber to Arabic linguistic transition took place) but very slight gene pool impact.

    * Your insights on the low level of admixture necessary to keep populations relatively homogeneous genetically once they diverges, coupled with the recent data on rare private mutations in major Eastern and Western populations from the 1000 Genomes project, also suggests that the amount of admixture between East Eurasia and West Eurasia has really been extraordinarily low for the vast majority of history.

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  • The image above is adapted from the 2010 paper A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages, and it shows the frequencies of Y chromosomal haplogroup R1b1b2 across Europe. As you can see as you approach the Atlantic the frequency converges upon ~100%. Interestingly the fraction of R1b1b2 is highest among populations such as the...
  • Razib, you did not said it, I was just refering to the article from wikipedia.

    To end, another example that the concept of “limpieza de sangre”, despite its name had was really diferent from racism was that, besides religion cleanliness it included to be clean from ancestors that had occupied “dirty” professions. Many old-christians which became rich on trade or in the handcrafts had to clean their blood when they wanted to entry in some noble corporations. At this times there existed many identitary frontiers, but I do not think race was that important.

    For those interested in this area, I would suggest, if I may, regarding old-castillan moriscos (many of them concentrated around Avila), Serafin de Tapia article´s (I do not know if they are translated into english). For Castilla-la Mancha (the new castilla) a good start could be “Mudejares y moriscos en Castilla La Mancha” from Romero Saiz.

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  • To conclude, pure racial issues, if they existed were very secondary. Ethnic issues (such as clothes, cuisine, language…) could be more important, since they could be signals of criptopractices (therefore subordinated to religious issues).

    i never said it was a pure racial issue. where did i say that? you seem to be responding to an assertion i never made. i’ve read the academic literature in this area, so yeah, i’m broadly familiar with some of these issues, you fleshed out some regional details (i knew mostly valencia and aragon).

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  • Sorry for late reply.

    “there were professing christian moriscos who were expelled, including children. the criterion was that of ethnicity attached to a proto-national/religious identity”.

    (Prologue diclaimer: I hope my answer is not interpreted as a defense of the expulsion nor a justification; I´m just trying to argue that according to the avalaible data race was not the main issue, if it was an issue at all)

    The Morisco ethnicity was not monolithic at the time. There were mainly four subgroups: old-castille moriscos, valencian, aragonese and those from Granada. Castillian moriscos were low to middle class, well integrated in their environment, with considerable intermarriage rate with old christians, loosing smoothly their past religious identity. I know less about the situation of those from valencia and aragon, probably more in the lower class. Those less integrated were those from granada, which had even revolted decades ago.

    These revolts together with some cripto-practices in all the subgroups and the geopolitical context (Ottmans getting more and more powerfull in the mediterranean) were possible causes of the expulsion. Posibly a mixture: theologians for religious reasons, high-bureaucrats for geopolitical reasons and low-bureaucrats (if they had any share in the decision for competition for positions reasons; despite regulations conversos of any religion were occupying bureaucratic postions). In a situation were they could not know how extended were criptopractices they took the, no doubt unfair, elite decision of expulsing them all. In any case it is fair to say that there is not full agreement among historians about the reasons and motivations of the expulsion, the case beeing still under research.

    The chidren matter was under discussion at the time and in fact many childrens were not expulsed (an interesting link about this for those who read spanish: http://www.ignasigirones.com/htm/morisquillos.htm). The reason for those favouring the no expulsion of childrens was preciselly that you could not nd judge innocent childrens for the guilty criptopractices of their fathers. Those arguing for the expulsion of children did it for “humanitary” reasons: how could you separe fathers and childrens.

    To conclude, pure racial issues, if they existed were very secondary. Ethnic issues (such as clothes, cuisine, language…) could be more important, since they could be signals of criptopractices (therefore subordinated to religious issues).

    p.s.
    Regarding the caste I would need probably a longer and more elaborated answer. Let´s drop this issue for another occasion.

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  • Grey says:

    Last thought. There’s this idea of neolithic farmers replacing paleolithic hunter-gatherers and a possible second idea of multiple neolithic waves however i would have thought one of the candidates for a first wave wouldn’t be farmers but pastoralists.

    I don’t know which of plants or animals is supposed to have come first in the near-east but either way, pastoralists have advantages of mobility and the ability to subsist off lower quality terrain, especially if they are not stopping long. Also, although they’d have a lower population density than farmers they’d still (i think?) have a higher one than hunter-gatherers so if they were pushing them off their terriotory they’d have the advantage of numbers.

    So first wave pastoralists pushed into refuges by second wave farmers maybe? If so that might tie in with distributions of lactose tolerance with the first wave refuges having higher quantities followed by a dip among the surrounding neolithic farmers followed by a rise again among IE pastoralists.

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  • Grey says:

    Another point i just thought of that fits the map. When Caesar described Gaul he said there was a clear division into three visibly distinct groups: Gauls, Belgae and Vascones with the Vascones at the time being the mountain Basques plus a large extension along the south-west and west of modern France

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vascones


    If you think of settlers following the path of least resistance coming from the near east then the expansion routes would be coastal first, followed (imo) by going up rivers. If you look at France in the context of mountains being road-blocks and rivers being the roads

    then i think you can see a geographical reason for the distinctiveness of the Vascones and a possible correlation with your R1 map. There’s a narrow coastal zone along the south of France with the main way out of that zone (if you’re coming from the direction of the mediterranean) being north up the Rhone. If you then made a hop to the Loire near Lyon and follow it downstream (and its various tributaries upstream when you came to them) then i think it’s clear the Aquitanian basin and the Armorican Massif might have been among the last places settled whether it was neolithic intruding on paleo or later waves of neolithic intruding on earlier waves.

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  • As others have mentioned Carthage had a lot of colonies along the North African and Spanish coasts and the Greeks had at least one (at Emporium IIRC). It was trade conflicts between these colonies that got Rome involved in Spain.

    That may or not be it. I’d guess not.

    The way i look at it is if you imagined a large relief model of that map and covered it in red paint. Then, before it was dry, you got six buckets of white paint and you
    - stood SE of Greece and threw one bucket roughly north-west
    - stood S of Spain and threw one north-east
    - stood south of Italy and threw one bucket north
    - stood somewhere around Germany/Poland and threw three buckets roughly south-west, south and south-east,
    then i think you’d roughly get your map colors with mountainous terrain blocking the flow and the remotest regions from where you threw the paint having the least overlay.

    If farming didn’t spread by diffusion then there must be at least two waves from north africa/near-east, the paleolithic hunter-gatherers and the neolithic farmers (and possibly multiple waves). Assuming they pushed out the paleos through greater numbers they’d follow the sort of vectors you mention i.e. coastal first then up rivers then a circular expansion from colony sites everywhere non-mountainous leaving behind clumps of legacy population in places like the Pyrenees and Alps and in the remotest western edge.

    Not sure how that fits.

    I think there are two directions of intrusion. Some of the northern population folded back on the south in the same way the Bantus did to the Khoi and the north africans and Arabs did to the Bantus etc. This seems to be quite common.

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  • It’s been a while, but, as I recall, the story of the origins of the Britons in Geoffrey of Monmouth was that they originate as a population fleeing the fall of Troy, land on the south coast of Spain, have some adventures along the western coast of Gaul, wander through Ireland, then into Britain.

    Which could correspond neatly with the map up above.

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  • Moriscos was a religious identity, not really racial. As you say arab and bereber influx during islamic times was limited. Most historians consider now that moriscos (both those expulsed to North Africa and those which remained in Spain) went trough the folowing conversion path as history unfolded: christians under goths > muladies > mudejares > moriscos> since XVIII christians again (during and more after XVIII century nobody really bothered about these issues

    i think it is is arguably racial in enough contexts that you shouldn’t confuse the ignorant by reducing it to pure confession. there were professing christian moriscos who were expelled, including children. the criterion was that of ethnicity attached to a proto-national/religious identity.

    As for the caste society in the colonies it is interesting to note that it lacks the features of a real caste society: identification of reproduction with profession.

    xan you clarify?

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  • Nice post. However the wikipedia link you point to is somewhat confusing.

    Moriscos was a religious identity, not really racial. As you say arab and bereber influx during islamic times was limited. Most historians consider now that moriscos (both those expulsed to North Africa and those which remained in Spain) went trough the folowing conversion path as history unfolded: christians under goths > muladies > mudejares > moriscos> since XVIII christians again (during and more after XVIII century nobody really bothered about these issues).

    Navarra and basque provinces were different political entities during lower middle ages and Ancient Régime (they remain different regional political entities today). Hidalguia universal was a feature of basque provinces (not sure if in all Alava), but not of Navarra in general, ony in some valleys, most in the frontier with France (Baztán, Roncal and some others). It was possibly a way to assure loyalty in poor and hard to access for tax levy areas (we must not forget the economic dimension of hidalguia, more important in some cases than the honorific: they were exempt from taxation). Navarra had a nobility system, more akin to french than to castillian, but nobility anyway. Another province with hidalguia universal was Asturias, poor, hard to access and excentric to most used routes had the same institution.

    As for the caste society in the colonies it is interesting to note that it lacks the features of a real caste society: identification of reproduction with profession. I wonder what would had happened if this society had evolved in isolation.

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  • In Spain, population density is much higher on the coast than inland. Inland is pretty mountainous, with sierras close to the coast blocking communications to the meseta, the central highland, except from the West. Most large cities are in the coast or a short trek up a large river, except Madrid, which was a small town before becoming the Court.

    The greeks and phoenicians only created colonies in the coast, but I can see how they could leave a supersized genetic imprint, as the locals sought and obtained status by family ties with the very rich foreigners. And high status meant high reproductive rates back then, right?

    And later conflicts depopulated regions of the central highland, so much that it was called the “Desert of the Duero” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repoblaci%C3%B3n).

    This is a very interesting topic for me, being half Basque, half Malagueño (a phoenician colony)!

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  • Lassi, there is the legend of Saint Brendan who many like to believe landed in North America. It’s likely he made it to Iceland.

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  • “Yet the map at the top of this post doesn’t show much differentiation between the coast and the hinterland. What’s that about?”

    Maybe some later mixing? Quite a few armies have romped through Spain in later centuries.

    But what about Iceland? They are a mix of Norse and Irish blood, but usually it is taken to mean that the Vikings raided Ireland and carried some female slaves to Iceland. But that should show in mtDNA, not Y. Did the Irish monks in Iceland get a piece of the action?

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  • Dodecad shows a strong West Asian component in Germany and in the British Isles, including Ireland. If it got there (presumably without Greco-Roman help), then it may well have gotten to Spain without Greco-Roman help as well?

    There is about the same aount of W Asian component between Germans, English and Irish, so presumably its presence in the British Isles is not merely an effect of Germanic invasions. It got there before.

    Notice that the W Asian component is strong in the Middle East and tapers down in W Europe – then abruptly disappears in non Indo-European populations (Finns and Basques). This differs from the pattern shown in the picture at the top of this post, where a supposedly Middle Eastern gene has almost vanished from the Middle East (presumably to be displaced by later innovations), but is strong in the Basque country (FR1 lies right on it!).

    A small, but culturally determinant Indo-European wave (W Asian component) following an earlier, stronger, mass-replacement Neolithic wave (R1b1b2)? Why not?

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  • The Greeks founded colonies everywhere they could reach, and the Carthaginians controlled the western Mediterranean for centuries (Spanish place names like Barcino – mod. Barcelona – and Cartagena are a bit of a clue). But neither group settled inland much. Even the Romans didn’t really settle Spain beyond Andalusia and the Atlantic and Mediterranian coasts much. They claimed it; they stationed a legion to guard the gold mines in the north (Leon), but they didn’t much make themselves at home. Yet the map at the top of this post doesn’t show much differentiation between the coast and the hinterland. What’s that about?

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  • The most important thing to notice is that today, gradients of the West Asian component are steep both from the Balkans through central Europe and the North, and along the northern Mediterranean shores. It is reasonable to expect that what we see today conforms to 2,000 to 8,000 years of diffusion – i.e., Western Asian components necessarily were much less then in Europe, but with sharper gradients.

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  • Looks like the Greeks did have colonies in Spain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity . But the Phoenicians would be a better bet for West Asian DNA.

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  • of course it doesn’t help that several years ago that we didn’t have the same resolution regarding sub-haplogroups of R1b1b2 for example Welsh and Irish mostly belong to R1b-L21 (M222 — Uí Néill– subgroup of L21) — R1b1a2a1a1b4

    Basques tend to belong to several Iberians specific SNP’s which appear to have been recently united under a newly discovered SNP (Z196) — interesting both it and L21 are under SNP called P312. The main division in western Europe R1b is between P312 and it’s subhaplotypes and U106. U106 has more of a “germanic imprint” in Europe.

    http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=23808881

    I’m L21* myself, so far I’ve tested negative for all know new sub-haplotypes under L21 (FamilytreeDNA)

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  • It looks to me as if any neolithic/agricultural West Asian portion quickly petered out west of the Balkans.

    fyi, germans more more than swedes, who have more than finns, which is none is finns. a non-trivial amount in austrian samples i’s got access too. i doubt massilia had much of an impact on that region of gaul. but magna graecia was a big deal for sure. though please note that the greeks generally did not bring women, so they got those from the natives often by hook or by crook. so that’s a dilution factor right there.

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  • In the sense that Greek colonies (and perhaps other seafarers) brought more of the Western Asian component to Italy and SE France, from where it could spread, later. It looks to me as if any neolithic/agricultural West Asian portion quickly petered out west of the Balkans.

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  • . Greek colonies and the Romans seem to be a much clearer choice.

    greek colonies. which spanish greek colonies? the latin influence souths plausible.

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  • The West Asian component has a huge gradient within Central Europe itself, being nearly absent in the north, and probably lower 2,000-3,000 years ago. The Celts (and later movements after Roman collapse) may have brought more of the NW European component to Iberia, but not a significant amount of West Asian. Greek colonies and the Romans seem to be a much clearer choice. I think it is highly likely that most of Iberia genetically looked like the Basque do today, before Roman times.

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  • In light of my last post I had to take note when Dienekes today pointed to this new paper in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Population history of the Red Sea—genetic exchanges between the Arabian Peninsula and East Africa signaled in the mitochondrial DNA HV1 haplogroup. The authors looked at the relationship of mitochondrial...
  • There has been genetic exchange between Somalia and the Arabian peninsula (Yemen or Saudi) within recent historical times. The Victorian explorer Sir Richard Burton noted that Somali nobles sometimes had ‘Arabian’ wives. I don’t know how quantitatively important this would be, but if it has been the practice for centuries it would be bound to have some impact.

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  • Thank You Meng Bomin,

    I am not a native English speaker.

    Razib’s Blog gives me true enjoyment, though I
    understand many topics only partially.

    Above he used a particular population indicator as “Yemenise”
    and I did not know if it was on purpose or a
    slight oversight.

    Very respectfully,
    Steve

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  • How does a population’s name derive from the country name?
    (English language question)

    There isn’t a straightforward answer to that. There are multiple systems of different origins. For some Arab demonyms, the “i” ending comes as a result of the Arabic:

    Yemeni
    Iraqi
    Saudi
    Omani
    Emriti
    Qatari
    Bahraini

    All those are simply loan words from Arabic. We took the Arabic place name and also the Arabic demonym, which follows the above pattern.

    Usually, the “ite” ending refers to ethnic groups rather than nationalities. An Israeli would be someone from the current state of Israel, while an Israelite (typically used in a biblical context) is Jewish. A Yemeni is someone from Yemen, while a Yemenite Jew is a group of Jews that have lived in Yemen historically.

    Obviously there are other relationships between place names and demonyms:

    Tunisia → Tunisian
    Canada → Canadian
    Iran → Iranian
    Brazil → Brazilian

    Portugal → Portuguese
    China → Chinese
    Japan → Japanese

    Germany → German
    Mexico → Mexican

    Iceland → Icelander

    Spain → Spaniard

    Great Britain → Briton

    There are patterns, but for the most part you have to learn each demonym individually. There aren’t universal rules determining their construction.

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  • How does a population’s name derive from the country name?
    (English language question)

    Sudan – sudanese
    Taiwan -taiwanese
    Yemen – yemenites -yemenis yemenese (?)
    Israel -israelites -israelis
    Oman – omanis

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  • [...] as a function of geography, but there are also suggestions that this is not simply a function of isolation by distance (i.e., populations at position 0.5 on the interval 0.0 to 1.0 would presumably exhibit equal [...]

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  • [...] East Africa, Ethiopia, mtDNA, Yemen by Razib Khan in Anthroplogy, Genomics, History | 4 comments | RSS feed | [...]

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  • I don’t know what that’s supposed to prove? Some of the historical connections they make are dubious at best.

    They do mention the same “gender bias” you alluded to regarding J1-M267 and the great “discrepancy” between Amharas and Oromos observed in Semino et al. (2004). But, again, that was in comparison to an Oromo subgroup with a typical southern Oromo profile, highly different to Amharas in other ways than just J (very high E-M78, for example). As the simple composite chart I posted above shows, which includes many Ethiopian Cushitic samples, that was not a relevant comparison.

    Not that I don’t appreciate Kivisild’s study, the mtDNA data is great! :)

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  • ohwilleke, could you please elaborate on the supposed “distinctive signature closely aligned with language” and the “fairly good historical documentation of when it happened and how”?

    The so-called clear gender bias (I would guess you’re referring to a paternal bias of Eurasian admixture, as people often do) is a common misconception. As I have mentioned on this blog before, people often base their conclusions about Ethiopian Semites/Cushites on data that is inadequate or irrelevant. Ethiopian Cushitic speakers have a lot of variation genetically, and the Oromos who trace their ancestry to far southern Ethiopia and northern Kenya are often quite different from Oromos from areas closer to central Ethiopia.

    Here is an actual composite chart of Ethiopian Y-DNA (not made by me) comparing Cushitic speakers to Semitic speakers. Rather similar, no?

    Another thing you must realize is that not all Cushitic speakers are representative of the Cushitic ancestors of Semitic Ethiopians; the closest to that are Ethiopian Agew populations, many of whom have disappeared recently due to the spread of the Amharic language. The Oromos, who underwent a northern expansion from areas in the far south long after the entrance of Semitic, certainly aren’t the most representative, especially the southern ones.

    If anything, the gender bias of Eurasian admixture in the whole Horn of Africa is maternal more than anything else. This seems to be especially true of the Tigray people of the far north of the country.

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  • “The autosomal and uniparental data from Ethiopia and Somalia strongly leans us toward the proposition of admixture of two very distinct populations, one in East Africa (“Ancestral East Africans”), and Eurasian group which are likely to have been intrusive.”

    At the very least you have three inputs: Ethio-Semitic (a very distinctive signature closely aligned with language, a clear gender bias in admixutre, and a fairly good historical documentation of when it happened and how), and a pre-Ethio-Semitic layers that has both an African and Eurasian component.

    The HV1 distributions bear a fair amount of similarity in both age relative to other Eurasian hgs (i.e. old but not pre-LGM), and distribution with NRY-DNA hg T – which like HV1 peaks in Somolia.

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  • A new paper in Proceedings of the Royal Society dovetails with some posts I've put up on the peopling of Japan of late. The paper is Bayesian phylogenetic analysis supports an agricultural origin of Japonic languages: Languages, like genes, evolve by a process of descent with modification. This striking similarity between biological and linguistic evolution...
  • [...] shaping global linguistic diversity,” and indeed human genetic diversity, both in Europe and Japan. Further evidence for Bellwood’s controversial [...]

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  • Time Traveler, what are the bases of your claims? None of the ancestry percentages you give seem plausible to me; I have seen nothing remotely similar to them in the literature.

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  • Justin Giancola

    “Slightly different admixures but rooted in the same.”

    Not necessarily. The biggest genetic contributors of Japanese ethnicity is Jomon(aka Ainu), followed by Southern Chinese. Koreans make up only 25% or so, although that 25% was enough to introduce Altaic grammar as bases of Japanese language.

    Korean gene-pool by contrast is majority Altaic(Evenki and Manchu), Scythian(Surname Kim is of Scythian origin based on genetic study and artifacts and are different from the rest of Altaic Koreans), 30% Chinese(Descendants of Han Dynasty colonists who were overrun by Koreans, but contributed in introduction of Chinese cultural product of writing, literature, and government system), and less than 1% Jomon.

    Basically, Jomon is the secret ingredient of Japanese gene pool, while Scythian is the secret ingredient of Korean gene pool, and you can actually tell them apart just by looking at these people as they physically look different.

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  • thanks Time Traveler, but hoping for an estimate like half the words or something like that.

    I like how they try and ignore the studies that basically show that Koreans and Japanese are like the equivalent to the Irish and Scottish, to be played off Chinese and English respectively. Slightly different admixures but rooted in the same.

    Even with the language origins it’s neat to see the parallels in the far east and far west!

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  • Some thoughts to add.

    Japanese reaction to this paper is obviously very unhappy, accusing the Tokyo University researchers of liberal bias, but the standard Japanese response is to reiterate the current leading theory on Yayoi origin. Yes, Yayoi came from Southern Korean Peninsula, but they weren’t ancestors to modern-day Korean and the peninsula Yayois went extinct by later-arriving Korean invaders from Siberia/Manchuria while Yayois prospered in Japan. Koreans would not be arriving in Japan until 4th century and their migration peaked in 7th Century, but Japanese estimate their numbers were no more than 250K.

    As for Korean origin, there has been significant progresses made in this department, and the current leading theory holds that Koreans are an off-shoot of Evenki, based on linguistic analysis which only became active after the fall of Soviet Union and found the closest match to Korean language nouns(native words, not Chinese-loan words). This theory is widely held in both Japan and Korea, and you can actually read lines like “Those Evenkis(Referring to Koreans) kicked out and massacred peaceful Yayois from the peninsula!” in Japanese news portals and message boards discussing this news. Why supposedly “Altaic” Koreans picked up rice farming is that their first settlement weren’t the Peninsula or even Manchuria, but Inner Mongolia and Shangdong Province based on archeological evidences, then relocated to Manchuria and then the Korean Peninsula after a series of conflicts with Chinese dynasties moving up from the Yellow River.

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  • Justin Giancola

    Korean and Japanese have Chinese loan words in nouns and adjectives, but not grammar. It is similar to how English has French loan words, but are different grammar wise.

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  • Might you know how much of Korean is borrowed from Chinese? One would think a similar proportion if not more.

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  • @19 The evidence that the Japanese language has received much linguistically from Ainu is not well supported. Only about 1% of Japanese words have Ainu roots and it does not appear to have borrowed much gramatically or phonetically either. Probably the main Ainu impact would be those changes in Japanese from the predecessor language associated with having a large population of adult language learners for a few generations – basically a tendency to drop elaborations. Ainu may have some minor areal influences from Altaic but I would agree that its language family is genuinely an isolate with only the very most remote connection to any of the other living language families the exist in the world.

    Of course, Japanese also owes a great deal to Chinese. It is the source of about half of all Japanese words, its more commonly used set of number words, and its written language. Indeed, since Japanese and Chinese use the same ideograms in many instances, even when the spoken Japanese word differs from the Chinese one, it isn’t entirely incorrect to describe the status quo in Japan as stable bilingualism with a Japanese spoken language that used modified Chinese characters to express itself phonetically in writing and a Chinese literary language that does not have a Chinese oral counterpart in Japanese society.

    (Japanese religious beliefs likely integrate simultaneously multiple traditions with different origins – Shinto beliefs and folk animist/shamanism with origins that appear to resemble Chinese folk religion, Buddhism, and Confucian philosophy, all in their own place integrated seamlessly.)

    Modern Japanese also borrows more from English than it does from Ainu.

    Of course, since this is non-mysterious and involves well established borrowings in the historic era, we don’t think of Japanese language borrowings from Chinese, English and other languages as the “genetic origin” of Japanese. We think of the origins of Japanese as being the Yayoi language whose “wago” root words make up about a third of the Japanese lexicon and which provided the starting point for modern Japanese grammar and phonetics. It is this part of the source for the Japanese language that has Altaic affinities.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says: • Website

    We’re talking about Japan and its language. It is based on two elements – the language of arrivals from Korea zemledeltskev and Ainu. Explore the Japanese language without borrowing from the Ainu people is wrong. Ainu language does not apply to the Altaic group, he is much older and it has other roots. Conclusion – if you study the development of language, the right to study the Altaic language and its offspring – the whale

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  • “they overwhelmingly began around 1500 CE at the earliest, ”

    By late middle ages, I’m suggesting roughly 1100-1400 CE, not very far in time in the greater scheme of things, particularly when it comes to degree of admixture genetically.

    “Assuming that the idea is that the Altaic conquerors had the same advantages that later Turkic conquerors did, this seems like the bizarro world Kurgan Hypothesis where it happens at the opposite end of Eurasia! My understanding is that nomadic pastoralism is late in East Eurasia, so I’m not sure if I can credit this kind of expansion so early (which it seems like must be to be before a Japanese-Korean divergence), and it seems to rely on that being operative (unless there’s some other means for a group of non-farmers to take control over a group of farmers). ”

    The Kurgan hypothesis (which is the leading theory by far among linguists) has horse domestication and the development of the core elements of the Indo-European culture developing around 3500 BCE in the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Kurgan hypothesis conquerers date to ca. 2500 BCE under that hypothesis in many of the places where they became prominent (e.g. India and Iran and Greece). People presumed to be Indo-European Tocharians reach the Tarim Basin around 2200 to 1900 BCE.

    The earliest language that could have split from a common proto-Altaic to be something associated with Korean or pre-Korean would be the language of the kingdom of Gojoseon in Northern Korea (which was a predecessor to some of the Three Kingdoms era states of Korea in the first millenium CE) which tradition says was founded in 2333 BC, but archaeological evidence and Chinese histories support from around 1500 BCE, and was a kingdom fused from a federation of smaller states around the 7th century BCE. A Japanese split from Korean would be ca. 700 BCE to 300 BCE. Korean as distinct from predecessor pre-Korean languages is usually dated to around 0 CE, although there is dispute concerning which of the three Kingdom languages is most closely associated with what emerged as a Korean language.

    The 1500 BCE to 600 BCE timing for Gojoseon divergence from other Altaic languages (it might be a sister language of the language of the Xianbei in Manchuria and Eastern Mongolia), is actually a quite good fit, chronology wise, to the arrival of nomadic pastoralism and Bronze age technology in that part of the world, probably with significant borrowings of technology and horses from far eastern Indo-Europeans. It is quite a bit later than in the West. Some of the parallel Chinese chronology would be as follows:

    244BC: First mention of Xiongnu, a nomadic pastoralist state North of China that the Great Wall was built to keep out. Traces of Xiongnu culture seem to be present from the 700 BCE, however, and the Zhukaigou culture of Inner Mongolia/Ordos enters the Bronze Age ca. 1500 BCE or perhaps a few hundred years earlier, around the same time as the Gojoseon to the east and is a candidate for a proto-Altaic urheimat.

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  • Onur says:

    they overwhelmingly began around 1500 CE at the earliest, in other words, during the modern era in Europe

    I think they were triggered both by the compulsions from European colonists (mostly Russians) and by the fact that advantages of a settled and agriculture-based populational lifestyle increased more than ever with the emergence of modernity.

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  • Onur says:

    Andrew, thanks for the links, but I think uniparental studies, especially those of contemporary populations or of a very limited number and/or territorial range of ancient DNA samples, don’t tell much about ancient population movements and relationships. In East Asian autosomal studies, Japanese, Koreans and Han Chinese usually show up genetically pretty close to each other, with Koreans showing up in the middle of Han Chinese and Japanese in accordance with geography. For example, see:

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003862

    In that paper, the authors note: “With respect to population groups derived from very populous groups, the data indicate that Japanese and Korean were very closely related, as were Korean and Han Chinese”. They also note: “These studies also provide data supporting the derivation of many other EAS groups from a Han expansion (including She, Japanese, Dai, Lahu and Miao).” We can of course replace the phrase “Han expansion” with “rice farmer expansion” for more accuracy.

    As for the transitions to agriculture and pastoralism in northern Fenno-Scandinavia and northern and eastern parts of the former Soviet Union, they overwhelmingly began around 1500 CE at the earliest, in other words, during the modern era in Europe.

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  • Matt says:

    Not sure about this, but … eastern North America? Some of the native tribes were already practicing agriculture when the European settlers arrived (famously illustrated in the story of Thanksgiving).

    This is a bit of a tangent to this, but in Mesoamerica, I think there isn’t really any sign of a “first farmer” dominant language group amongst the pre-Columbian agricultural populations, which is interesting. That’s my impression, someone like German Dzeibel would probably be in a better position to confirm or deny.

    The most sensible way to reconcile these facts, in my view, would be that an ethnically Chinese-esque population in Korea was conquered by a thin Altaic language superstrate population that left a strong linguistic mark, leading to language shift, but not a strong genetic mark (a la Hungary and Turkey), and that the language shifted population then moved onto Japan as the Yaoyi.

    Assuming that the idea is that the Altaic conquerors had the same advantages that later Turkic conquerors did, this seems like the bizarro world Kurgan Hypothesis where it happens at the opposite end of Eurasia! My understanding is that nomadic pastoralism is late in East Eurasia, so I’m not sure if I can credit this kind of expansion so early (which it seems like must be to be before a Japanese-Korean divergence), and it seems to rely on that being operative (unless there’s some other means for a group of non-farmers to take control over a group of farmers).

    It seems like there might be some kind of detectable Sino-Tibetan substrate in Korean if this is the case, though this would not necessarily be true and could be hard to distinguish from lanaguage contact.

    This probably isn’t the best post on which to place this comment, but I will say that I haven’t seen how an identification of Indo-European with the early Neolithic and Neolithic expansion is reconciled by the fact that the first attested written languages, presumably from the central part of the expanding, i.e. Sumerian, Elamite, Minoan, aren’t Indo-European. It’s hard to imagine Indo-European was specifically replaced in just these places.

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  • “Where is the evidence that it was substantial?”

    Japanese specific mtDNA haplogroup frequency, Japanese specific Y-DNA haplogroup frequency and phylogeny, autosomal admixture component frequency. At least 40% of Japanese Y-DNA and 22% of Japanese mtDNA has a clear Jomon signature. We know from ancient DNA some of the mtDNA haplogroups that were common in the Jomon (also here) and can compare those frequencies to those found in modern populations.

    The autosomal signal isn’t as strong, but is still there – in my view the ancestral population/eigenvector methodology is is probably underestimating the Jomon component, perhaps because its differences from more recent populations may be fairly subtle at the level of detail examined (e.g. K=15). While uniparental market and autosomal marker frequencies don’t have to match, normally one would expect the Y-DNA frequencies to be lower rather than higher that autosomal frequencies in subjected populations that have their languages virtually obliterated, not elevated.

    There are lots of reasons that autosomal and uniparental frequencies get out of parity with each other. But, given the magnitude of the disconnect and the fairly short time period that it would have to have arisen during (2000 years give or take), one needs a pretty compelling story to explain why this disconnect arose, if there isn’t a good technical reason for the autosomal data to be off. We know to a high degree of certainty that the uniparentals have to be patriline or matriline ancestry informative. The autosomal data don’t give us phylogeny information in the same way.

    “That may also explain why Korea has a supposedly Altaic tongue despite genetic affinity to Chinese.”

    Agreed. The genetic and lingustic case that the Yayoi’s closest surviving population outside Japan are the Koreans is a strong one, although on the genetic front, it is hard to know how much of that is attributable to Japanese occupation of Korea in recent times. Koreans are more different from the Chinese than one might naiively expect given their proximity, however.

    “those transitions all happened during modern times.”

    Outside Southern Japan, we are talking 40 generations or less. In Southern Japan were are talking 80 generations. Northern Scandinavia and parts of the former Soviet Union converted to agriculture and pastoralism pre-1000 CE, switched back when the little ice age hit then, and then coverted to agriculture and/or pastoralism again in the late middle ages. The transitions aren’t exactly identical in era, but they aren’t orders of magnitude different either.

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  • Genetically, Japan is probably one of the best examples of a case where a pure replacement model doesn’t fit well. While there was obviously a major recent genetic contribution form East Asia, there was also clearly a substantial strata that is earlier, presumably the Jomon.

    i’ve read the uniparental stuff, but it doesn’t really show up in the autosome IMO too much. the jomon that is.

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  • But now I keep reading about “near total replacement”. How can this be reconciled with the fact that people from different parts of Europe look so noticeably different? I can think of several possibilities, but I’m curious what you think about this.

    i think there were several independent replacements. but weak confidence.

    Are there outer explanations that I do not consider?

    you need a ‘jomon’ outgroup. you don’t have one. the main issue with using okinawa is that it’s an isolated island. i can imagine that it’s just got issues with isolation allowing it create its own cluster, kind of like sardinia can.

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  • Wow, Razib, “gaikokujin”? I’ve never known you to be so P.C.

    there are always kommissars complaining in the comments if i put stuff in titles. of course, if i am P.C., i get anti-kommissars complaining.

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  • Onur says:

    there was also clearly a substantial strata that is earlier, presumably the Jomon

    Where is the evidence that it was substantial?

    The most sensible way to reconcile these facts, in my view, would be that an ethnically Chinese-esque population in Korea was conquered by a thin Altaic language superstrate population that left a strong linguistic mark, leading to language shift, but not a strong genetic mark (a la Hungary and Turkey), and that the language shifted population then moved onto Japan as the Yaoyi.

    That may also explain why Korea has a supposedly Altaic tongue despite genetic affinity to Chinese.

    Another example that might be comparable to Japan is hunter-gatherers picking up agriculture would be Northern Scandinavia and the Northern and Eastern parts of the former Soviet Union.

    But those transitions all happened during modern times.

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  • A study that confidently tells us that with highly calibrated Japanese languages data from the era of Japanese ethnogenesis supported by data established by other means, isn’t all that impressive. Among other things, it doesn’t have to deal with the complications involved in that hypothesis that language changes fast upon initial divergence from a prior language and in periods of contact with other languages, as opposed to period of gradual random change over time. This analysis basically leapfrogs the language formation period for Japanese.

    Genetically, Japan is probably one of the best examples of a case where a pure replacement model doesn’t fit well. While there was obviously a major recent genetic contribution form East Asia, there was also clearly a substantial strata that is earlier, presumably the Jomon.

    The harder question for Japanese is where proto-Japanese in a larger perspective. The mainstream positions are either that the origin is so obscure, perhaps because related languages are extinct, that it is impossible to know (hence making it a language isolate), or that it is a relation of the Northeast Asian origin Altaic language (together with Korean). The connections from from lexical similarities (particularly in the minority of Japanese words that aren’t borrowed) and in residues of Altaic language features in Old Japanese.

    The linguistic data don’t match the recent genetic contribution from East Asia. Rather than looking like the Asian component of Altaic populations, it looks more or less Chinese genetically.

    The most sensible way to reconcile these facts, in my view, would be that an ethnically Chinese-esque population in Korea was conquered by a thin Altaic language superstrate population that left a strong linguistic mark, leading to language shift, but not a strong genetic mark (a la Hungary and Turkey), and that the language shifted population then moved onto Japan as the Yaoyi.

    Naiively, one might think that Japanese was changed by Jomon influences, making it hard to peg, but the lexical data suggest only only about 1% of Japannese words have that origin, and given that Ainu is still a living (if not very healthy) language, that estimate is credible. Cultural replacement was stronger than genetic replacement.

    Another example that might be comparable to Japan is hunter-gatherers picking up agriculture would be Northern Scandinavia and the Northern and Eastern parts of the former Soviet Union.

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  • “approximately 2182 ago”

    LOL. But what if it was approximately 2153.5 years ago?

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  • “[W]hat are the examples where we know that hunter-gatherers picked up agriculture?”

    Not sure about this, but … eastern North America? Some of the native tribes were already practicing agriculture when the European settlers arrived (famously illustrated in the story of Thanksgiving).

    Could be examples in Papua New Guinea as well.

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  • well, does Buyeo-Baekje-Gaya sing any bells?
    Early Yayoi Japanese settlers were directly off-shoot from Gaya related Haan tribes of Korean peninsula from archeological to genetical POV. And then Baekje Kingdom of Korea sent large sum of immigrants to Yamatai (Yamato state). Yamatai kingdom or chiefdom expanded all over southern Japan by end of 5th century, during Baekje’s 4th century period, Yamatai was just small chiefdom state. Modern Japanese language contain a lot of Sino-words and Jomon words but their context is closer to Middle Korean language than anyone suggesting later arrival of settlers to Japan could well have been ancient Koreans tribes from Korean peninsula. Btw, both Gaya and Baekje were disappeared from Korea after Silla kingdom of Korea overran them.

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  • jb says:

    Razib, I’ve been reading this blog regularly, and I’m still not clear on how well the most recent genetic studies align with what I think is the simple story you get just by eyeballing the people of Europe. The simple story says that, while farming may have allowed the first farmers to demographically overwhelm their neighbors, the replacement was more complete in southern Europe, because the climate was a better match to Anatolia, and because there was easy access from the sea. This explains in a general way why southern Europeans are darker than northern/eastern Europeans — they look more like the people of the Middle East because a greater portion of their ancestry comes from the Middle East.

    I’ve been telling people this story since I read Colin Renfrew’s “Language & Archaeology” years ago. It’s a very satisfying story, because it explains something that people can actually see with their own eyes. But now I keep reading about “near total replacement”. How can this be reconciled with the fact that people from different parts of Europe look so noticeably different? I can think of several possibilities, but I’m curious what you think about this.

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  • Garvan, to test the replacement theory you should at least compare Japanese with both Koreans and unadmixed Ainu (I don’t know if you used any Ainu sample in your Pan-Asian tests). Of course, the ideal is using ancient DNA.

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  • ADMIXTURE results on the Pan Asian (my own tests) and “ref” database that you encouraged readers to try do not appear to support a replacement of of the Jomon people by Yoyoi people. The Ryukyuan sample form the Pan Asian sample stands out as population with a single color in the analysis, while the mainland Japanese population looks like it is derived from 20% Koreans. The better distribution of populations in the ‘ref’ data set including northern populations do conflict with this picture.

    20% Korean does not sound like an agricultural era replacement, but it is consistent with a language change.

    Or else the Yoyoi and the Jomon people were from related populations?

    Are there outer explanations that I do not consider?

    Garvan

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  • I do a lot using classical comparative reconstruction to work back from dialects to a common ancestor. When I’m lucky, there are old written texts against which I can check my results. What I have found is that the classical method tends to ascribe derived features to the common ancestor because it views parallel independent innovations as more implausible than they are. The method also tends to favor, too strongly,shorter, simpler paths of transformation from ancestral to modern forms and so tends to imply overly short chronologies. From what I can judge the same assumptions are built into this model so I would not take the date of the last common ancestor too literally.

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  • Wow, Razib, “gaikokujin”? I’ve never known you to be so P.C.

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  • The Pith: Over the past 10,000 years a small coterie of farming populations expanded rapidly and replaced hunter-gatherer groups which were once dominant across the landscape. So, the vast majority of the ancestry of modern Europeans can be traced back to farming cultures of the eastern Mediterranean which swept over the west of Eurasia between...
  • What we see after that is an otherwise unaccountable rise in the haplogroups more ancient in Europe (including the European steppe). . .

    Can this reflect an elite population having a decline in birth rate as it stabilizes, the upper class women choosing not to have every baby that came their way, while at the same time the population of a subsumed ancient group that survives as a lower class also stabilizes but doesn’t have the option to limit their birthrate?

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  • tx jean! that wuz informative!

    And it is not just me thinking this way! I just blogged about the genetic and isotope study of migrants from the steppe currently under way. The results won’t be available until 2012 at the earliest. But an overview in a German-language magazine in February shows the thinking: Invasion aus der steppe.

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  • [...] Press: Razib Khan at Gene Expression explains how farmers conquered Eurasia between 10,000 and 5,000 years ago. Cancel [...]

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  • #6, where was “ooga-booga” in the bible? :-) wunzt translated right from the original language?

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  • So was Neanderthal the ‘men of old, men of renown’ the Bible spoke of ? wasn’t the time frame referred to as after the younger dryas ? If so what was the cause of this migration ?

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  • “There straightforward drawback is that the history of one’s foremothers may not be a good representative of the history of one’s total lineage. Additionally the haploid nature of mtDNA means that genetic drift is far more powerful in buffeting gene frequencies and introduced stochastic fluctuations, which eventually obscure past mutational signals through myriad mutations. . . . Mesolithic ancestry makes up only a fraction of contemporary European genomes. U5a, U5b1, V, and 3H combined account for ≈15% of western Europeans mtDNA haplogroups.”

    Given that in many historical examples where we know what happened, or have very definitive population DNA evidence, the proportion of indigenous NRY-DNA is smaller because to inmigrating population is male dominated and/or integrates more local women than men into its population, but there are very few, if any, examples of female dominated migrations, the 15% figure for indigenous ancestry from the mtDNA is probably a cap rather than a floor on the percentage of the Western European genome that could be from an indigeneous source.

    The overall percentage of European hunter-gatherer ancestry could easily be in the 9% to 12% range.

    The low portion of European hunter-gatherer ancestry may also help explain why modern European, in the former range of the Neanderthals, do not have an elevated level of Neanderthal admixture.

    Neolithic immigrants from Anatolia, the Balkans or the Near East would have only the level of Neanderthal admixture found in all Eurasians, after which contact with Neanderthal populations would have ceased as the Neanderthal range retreated. The only population to have prolonged contact with Neanderthals were the European hunter-gatherers of the Paleolithic who may have co-existed with Neanderthals at the fringe of their population for many thousands of years more than other modern humans. And, indeed, the particularly robust modern human skeletons that could indicate admixture with Neanderthals are found in Europe.

    But, the excess Neanderthal admixture in the hunter-gatherer proportion would have been reduced by a factor of six or more during the Neolithic, and might have been reduced further already at that point if people from outside the group of descendants of the pre-LGM hunter-gatherers of Europe participated in Northern Europe’s resettlement from refugia as ice sheets retreated after the LGM.

    Also, since more Neanderthal admixed hunter-gather descendants may have looked more different from Neolithic migrants into Europe than those who were less Neanderthal admixed, it is possible that they may have been adverse sexual selection against them into the more rapidly growing populations of farmers.

    Since the amount of Neanderthal admixture into modern humans isn’t known very exactly (1%-4% is the current range), even a population of European hunter-gatherers with an 8-10% Neanderthal admixture percentage wouldn’t have made a distinguishable dent, given the accuracy of the methods that have been used so far, in the Neanderthal admixture percentage of current European populations.

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  • I think there is some evidence from ADMIXTURE runs for an eastern Neolithic wave coming from the Near East via the Caucasus and the rivers of the Ukraine and South Russia. This element is perhaps best preserved among the Chuvash, which also have considerable Siberian-like admixture (Aboriginal, Turkic, both?). At first just farmers concentrated in the river valleys, some advantage in pastoralist lifestyles in marginal steppe lands led to their evolution.
    These people coming from the East would have migrated into the Northern European plain perhaps aided by advanced steppe pastoralist lifestyles developed along the way, and via elites with military advantages (horse, horse, horse).
    But much more important I think were perhaps earlier related peasants with Rye, or developing it there -a crop with major advantages for the colder climates and sandier soils of much of the region. Rye is first documented as a purposefully planted crop around this time (Corded Ware) around this area, which shouldn’t be a coincidence.
    So this episode you refer toocan be very well just a latter Neolithic wave (a reexpansion from the Eastern wing of the first Anatolian wave?) ultimately also from the Near East, but from a different region (Eastern Anatolia?).
    One can see some clues indicating a later Neolithic wave expanding from the Corded Ware Atlantic wave-Danubian Wave-East Wave melting pot zone of current Poland and Germany throughout cold/sandy soil habitats, including (pardon me for jumping to conclusions) perhaps movements of proto-German speaking peoples into Scandinavia, much of the Slavic expansion, and culminating in Eastern Siberia’s colonization by the Russians.
    This also provides a very speculative but interesting explanation for Central Europe’s R1a versus R1b and I Y-haplogroup mix.

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  • tx jean! that wuz informative!

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  • There were likely several pulses and distinct streams coming out of the Middle East which populated Europe.

    I agree entirely, but

    So, the vast majority of the ancestry of modern Europeans can be traced back to farming cultures of the eastern Mediterranean which swept over the west of Eurasia between 10 and 5 thousand years before [the present]

    ignores Indo-European migration from the steppe c. 5000 BP.

    The mtDNA haplogroups selected to represent the Upper Paleolithic were U5, V, and H3. Those selected to represent the spread of agriculture were T1, T2, J1a, K2a. (They threw in H4, but that has not been solidly linked to the Neolithic, and they made the calculations with and without it, reporting no difference.)

    Haplogroup H represents nearly half the modern European population. As Barbara Bramanti et al (2009) pointed out in a rather puzzled way, the genetic make-up of modern Europe cannot be explain solely by adding the hapologroups found in actual Mesolithic DNA to the hapologroups found in Neolithic DNA. Something (another migration?) must have happened later.

    The stabilisation of the Neolithic haplogroups on their graph about 4000 BP does not reflect population growth just stopping. It didn’t stop. The current population of Europe is vastly greater than it was 4000 years ago. What we see after that is an otherwise unaccountable rise in the haplogroups more ancient in Europe (including the European steppe), plus other younger haplogroups that they didn’t include in the study, like H5a. H5* is most frequent and diverse in the western Caucasus and may have spread from there, while H5a has a stronger European distribution. H5a is thought to be only 7000-8000 years old, so its wide, though low, spread over Europe suggests that significant migration took place even after the initial spread of farming.

    I reported on this paper on my blog also (before Dienekes) : http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/blog/2/entry-143-neolithic-population-growth-estimated-from-mtdna/
    Edited.

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  • I wonder if the reticulate pattern in the British Isles reflects Anglo-Saxon and Viking colonisation (and later events in Ireland), which may have “muddied” the situation a little.

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  • After linking to Marnie Dunsmore's blog on the Neolithic expansion, and reading Peter Bellwood's First Farmers, I've been thinking a bit on how we might integrate some models of the rise and spread of agriculture with the new genomic findings. Bellwood's thesis basically seems to be that the contemporary world pattern of expansive macro-language families...
  • I certainly don’t claim to have autosomal or mtDNA evidence to support the hypothesis (and, of course, one doesn’t need to have extant genetic evidence of any kind to the extent that the Afro-Dravidian hypothesis, which is mostly a linguistic and cultural sourcing claim involves more cultural transfer than a demic replacement by outsiders).

    But, the genetic argument that I have made, which is to associate Y-DNA T with the Afro-Dravidians may be possible to show in a suitably designed autosomal study. But, since Y-DNA T is not uniform across Dravidian speakers (one presumes based on Y-DNA data that there was an initial demic expansion in the core proto-Dravidian area followed by expansions that is proportionately more culturally transmitted in the wider Dravidian area), in a way that goes beyond the ANI v. ASI cline, one would expect a search looking for Dravidian v. non-Dravidian components to have a hard time parsing out this subpart of a proto-Dravidian population.

    Most autosomal studies have offered inputs in the form of linguistic groups or macrolinguistic groups, with an aim to discerning if autosomal genetic clusters form along those lines and they do. The autosomal data, while not unequivocal, does show a distinction between ANI and ASI. And, with enough clusters permitted (as Dienekes does in his recent analysis) almost every subpopulation can be distinguished from almost every other subpopulation as a distinct autosomal population that matched closely the input groupings without using a process that relies on the labels assigned to the input genomes. The hard part is to discern larger dimensional trends within an ASI component.

    But, the fact that a population is distinct from other populations autosomally doesn’t tell you much about where its autosomal mix came from. Pure cluster analysis doesn’t itself distinguish between admixed and non-admixed populations, or determine how many components went into that population’s mix when (except in cases where recent merger of populations leaves mostly unadmixed as cryptic subpopulations).

    To test the genetic part of an Afro-Dravidian hypothesis you would need to take a fine grained set of samples from populations that are Dravidian and are hypothesized to be Dravidian and look to see which autosomal markers, if any, corrolate to the prevalence of Y-DNA T in that population, and then compare those autosomal markers to autosomal markers that corrolate with Y-DNA T that is phylogenically similar to the Y-DNA T found in South Indian populations.

    We certainly aren’t there yet and I don’t claim that this is anything more than a hypothesis. Y-DNA T was just recognized as a distinct haplogroup at all in the last few years, and I haven’t been able to locate any sources that I can read (i.e. that aren’t behind paywalls) that even do a phylogenic comparison of Y-DNA T subhaplogroups by geography (which could itself make or break the genetic part of the hypothesis), and since there are almost no pure Y-DNA T populations, providing pure types to use as comparisons in first order autosomal analysis, it isn’t easy work.

    But, it is a hypothesis with considerable supporting evidence from multiple different disciplines including the Y-DNA studies, so it is worth the effort to investigate.

    While there may be cases where autosomal studies reveal connections that patrilines and matrilines fail to reveal (for example, in cases where one instance of patriline dominated replacement by invaders to an existing population is followed by a second such instance that obliterates the Y-DNA traces of the first invasion wave), there shouldn’t be any cases where strong Y-DNA or mtDNA traces are entirely invisible in autosomal DNA evidence, even though the autosomal DNA evidence is much more formidable to work with in multiple loci at the same time (if you use individual allels and genes, it is only modestly more difficult). Autosomal data don’t make uniparental market data obsolete, it only adds nuance to it.

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  • dude,

    1) i followed some of your links. they’re old. that doesn’t invalidate them, but the genetic stuff i know has been superseded.

    2) there’s no autosomal data to corroborate the hypothesis. in fact, lots of to refute it. that’s more for the people who read your comment. don’t care what you think about the issue, it’s pretty clear to me that the overwhelming preponderance of evidence weighs against you in the ‘afro-dravidian’ hypothesis.

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  • [...] response to my post from this weekend positing that the Sardinians are a particularly pristine distillation of the genetic heritage of [...]

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  • “A clear West Asian transplanted culture arrived in what is today Pakistan ~9,000 years ago. But it does not seem that the Neolithic arrived to the far south of India until ~4,000 years ago. I think that a period of “incubation” in the northwest part of the subcontinent explains the putative hybridization between “Ancient North Indians” and “Ancient South Indians” described in Reconstructing Indian population history. The high proportion of “Ancestral North Indian,” on the order of ~40%, as well as Y chromosomal markers such as R1a1a, among South Indian tribal populations, is a function of the fact that these groups are themselves secondary amalgamations between shifting cultivators expanding from the Northwest along with local resident hunter-gatherer groups which were related to the ASI which the original West Asian agriculturalists encountered and assimilated in ancient Pakistan (Pathans are ~25% ASI). I believe that the Dravidian languages arrived from the Northwest to the south of India only within the last 4-5,000 with the farmers (some of whom may have reverted to facultative hunter-gathering, as is common among tribals). This relatively late arrival of Dravidian speaking groups explains why Sri Lanka has an Indo-European presence to my mind; the island was probably only lightly settled by farming Dravidian speakers, if at all, allowing Indo-European speakers from Gujarat and Sindh to leap-frog and quickly replace the native Veddas, who were hunter-gatherers.”

    I am inclined to agree based on linguistic evidence of time-depth and the close association between the range and age of Dravidian languages and the South Indian Neolithic that Dravidian emerged in the south of India with farmers (some of whom may have reverted to hunter-gathering), although I would put the date closer to 5,500 years ago in line with the archeology of the South Indian Neolithic. But, an origin for Dravidian in Northwest India seems unlikely.

    The lack of expansion of the Harappans out of Northwest India to the rest of India has an obvious explanation. Near Eastern Neolithic founder crops grow in Northwest India but not in the climate of South India where African Sahel crops grow much better, and the South Indian Neolithic involved crops domesticated in the African Sahel, which arrived later in a separate event.

    There is really no archaeological evidence to support anything more than a thin trading relationshp between the Harappans and the South Indian Neolithics. And, the case that there is a Dravidian substrate in early Rig Vedic Sanskrit is increasingly viewed as weak, despite the fact that if the Harappans or their ancestors were the first people subjected to Indo-Europeans from Central Asia and were also the source of Dravidian, there should have been such a substrate. Finally, the crops argue against that origin.

    Indo-European expansion is also quite sufficient to explain the ANI genetic component in South Indian Dravidian population. The evidence that Dravidian farming practices and language have a source in a Niger-Kordifani speaking population of Sahel farmers in Africa, as argued by Sergent, increasingly looks more likely to me, and has support from crops, from linguistics and from cultural carryovers. Given the lack of an mtDNA trace of that event, I think it is likely that the seed population of the Dravidian culture was probably a group of colonizing men and that Y-DNA haplogroup T, a haplogroup whose distribution coincides neatly with the linguistically inferred location of proto-Dravidian, is the genetic trace of this seed population. See some supporting evidence cited here.

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  • [...] and used a series of simulations to show how the nature of the gradients varied. In light of recent preoccupations the results are of interest. Principal Component Analysis under Population Genetic Models of Range [...]

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  • [...] and used a series of simulations to show how the nature of the gradients varied. In light of recent preoccupations the results are of interest. Principal Component Analysis under Population Genetic Models of Range [...]

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  • [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Razib Khan, Geoffrey Dyson, World Amazing Things, Maggie, m and others. m said: Excavating the Neolithic genetic strata | Gene Expression: After linking to Marnie Dunsmore’s blog on the Neolit… http://bit.ly/gTJO6q [...]

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  • A new paper in The New Journal of Physics shows that a relatively simple mathematical model can explain the rate of expansion of agriculture across Europe, Anisotropic dispersion, space competition and the slowdown of the Neolithic transition: The paper is open access, so if you want more of this: Just click through above. Rather, I...
  • The Shape of the Neolithic Transition: Populations Under Space Competition

    http://linearpopulationmodel.blogspot.com/2010/12/shape-of-neolithic-transition.html

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  • [...] and, the provenance and character of the Sami speak to broader questions about the emergence of the modern European gene pool. More precisely questions about the Sami are relevant to the broader nature of the Finnic presence [...]

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  • Two other possibilities. Fishing is cold, dangerous and unpleasant work, especially in the long cold months of northern Europe. If land animals provided an equivalent # of calories or greater, the transition might be swift, a few generations for the animals to breed up to large numbers. Most livestock farmers enjoy caring for the animals.

    More lightheartedly, fish stink. Just about any culture with good land would make the switch just to escape the foul stench of cooking fish and rotting fish guts.

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  • Hello Bob,
    where do You live?
    I doubt whether there is a second coast like Dutch,
    German, Danish and east English coasts to compete in “shallowness”.
    Georg

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  • Where was the actual shoreline during this time. There may have been much more shallow and estuarine environments that would support large scale fishing.

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  • One has
    to include thoughts about the “know how” of the neolithic farmers.
    The first wave in Germany/France occupied light soils only,
    which the farmers could work with their wooden “ploughs”.
    The “technology” to make use of eg. marsh lands was developed
    in Frisia and arrived in Germany as late as the medieval times
    (brought in by settlers from Frisia).
    Another factor was the plants/animals the farmers had, and
    whether they were useful in the moist northern climate.
    Georg

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  • I’m looking at the five sizeable light blue blobs in Britain. Two of them are in the only two parts of the island with noticeable chinook/fohn winds i.e. North Wales and Moray. What can it signify?

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  • [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Ron Simon, TimeTrekker, Archaeology, Michael Stryder, Geoffrey Dyson and others. Geoffrey Dyson said: The great northern culture war | Gene Expression: A new paper in The New Journal of Physics shows that a relativ… http://bit.ly/ejKDJ8 [...]

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  • biology too.

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  • Diffusion models are used all the time in economics (which is essentially what this is… Neolithic production behavior). So it’s not surprising they find a decent fit here.

    Very interesting! Thanks!

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