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    Is sleep the balm of hurt minds? It should be. Happily, sleep usually comes easily to me. There are some exceptions: the night before having to wake early for a long plane flight being one, but these events are few and far between. Many people complain of insomnia, and this is a private disorder, in...
  • @dearieme
    Allow me to recommend chamomile tea. It's not really "tea" of course but what the French would call an "infusion". Roibos (Red Bush) "tea" from South Africa might also be worth a try.

    Yes, Daerieme, I drink roibos all the time, but my body has never liked chamomile. Also, in my 70s I have stopped drinking any herb teas with mints or licorich, which are known to suppress testosterone production.

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  • Yep, Androids dreaming. Prize is a good night’s sleep.

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  • @middle aged vet . . .
    Wizard - I agree completely. The only thing that wears us down at differential rates is "responsibility" for others. Thus, a general will get worn down at a higher rate than a colonel, and so on.

    The reason the powers that be always claim we are not getting enough sleep is because they want to convince the sergeants that they are generals. They (we) are not.

    In modern days, many of the intellectually gifted people who used to get by on 4 hours sleep now need a few more due to all the flashing lights of the computers they spend so much of the day on.

    Also, if you have a demanding spouse, you need 8 hours of sleep because - let us be honest, spouses are often hard on each other - and for some of us, those 8 hours are the only hours of freedom we truly experience, due to demands of our spouses. Sad, but often true. And even the most deluded and subjugated of us are never so deluded that we can live for very long without, say, 8 hours a day of freedom. (it is easier for the rich who live in a world where they are considered valuable and gifted - believe me, they do not stare long at computer screens with those imperious flashing lights, and they have plenty of time in their 20 wakeful hours to refresh every biological function that needs refreshing....) Why 8 hours, as a minimum for even the poorest among the average among us? I don't know. If we were born measuring things at Babylonian rates, instead of the inhuman decimal rates later and more degraded civilizations left to us as our inheritance, it might be more clear.

    In modern days, many of the intellectually gifted people who used to get by on 4 hours sleep now need a few more due to all the flashing lights of the computers they spend so much of the day on.

    I don’t know how you’d qualify your term “get by,” or if it relates to a single night, or a regular habit.

    I can only speak for myself, but very many nights in a row of just 4 hours sleep would leave me a wreck, although I could probably “get by” and probably did when I was younger, a little more foolish, and meeting more dames than I had time or money to chase, but fortunately, I didn’t let that stop me.

    Is there some kind of award in this thread for being the first to mention the connection between the title of James Thompson’s article here, and the inspiration for Blade Runner ?

    Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. Dick. 10 to 1 says James Thompson knew that, and is poised even now to bestow upon me the Deckard Prize.

    Well, if the ability to get by on 4 hours sleep is a valid indicator of intellectually gifted people, I didn’t make the cut.

    In fact, I don’t even have a computer with all the flashing lights, but rather a solitary soft amber light on a USB drive running a live Linux session, that does start winking and blinking on those rare occasions when I do something especially spectacular.

    Getting back to sawing logs, catching Zzzzzs, or being enchanted by the Sandman, please let me recommend a little soothing white noise for your dreamy slumbers:

    For do-it-yourself white noise, tune static on your FM receiver, or try an electric fan.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • There are two types of sanity

    current one or DOMESTICATED

    and

    ideal one or WISE

    Because human selection for tamed people, this selective pressure have inter-related both domestication and emotional stability.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Dryden, whom I revere, intoned: Great wits are sure to madness near allied, and thin partitions do their bounds divide.

    Far from that being the case, wit is diminished by mental disorders. When literary tradition collides with empiricism, woe to tradition.

    Just because a condition is deleterious doesn’t mean it can’t correlate with high intelligence. Both psychological disorder and genius skew heavily toward the male sex.

    Also, the “thin partition” may often simply be success. Step out of bounds, and your theory pans out, you’re a genius. If it doesn’t, you’re just another nut.

    The Chinese are the smartest major nation on the planet, yet they fell for Maoist Marxism, a bastardization of a bastardization. Pythagoras thought you could fart your soul away. And every halfway-sane person knows to ignore the political and other views of major intellectual figures away from their area of study.

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  • @Wizard of Oz
    I am still waiting to read of the research which would establish the prima facie highly probable fact that we do not all ideally need 7.5 to 8.5 hours sleep in 24 but that our needs are normally distributed as one would expect from the product of many genes.

    My guess is an average of about 7.25 hours with a sd of about 1 hour - very approximate.

    A complication is that sleep serves several functions so that it might be hard to find a single equivalent like g - or at any rate one that didn't grossly neglect the importance of one or more functiona of sleep that were out of line in their time requirements with others. Thus there may well be people whose brains can function well on 4 hours sleep but whose heart, lungs and livers kill them young. N'est-ce pas?

    Wizard – I agree completely. The only thing that wears us down at differential rates is “responsibility” for others. Thus, a general will get worn down at a higher rate than a colonel, and so on.

    The reason the powers that be always claim we are not getting enough sleep is because they want to convince the sergeants that they are generals. They (we) are not.

    In modern days, many of the intellectually gifted people who used to get by on 4 hours sleep now need a few more due to all the flashing lights of the computers they spend so much of the day on.

    Also, if you have a demanding spouse, you need 8 hours of sleep because – let us be honest, spouses are often hard on each other – and for some of us, those 8 hours are the only hours of freedom we truly experience, due to demands of our spouses. Sad, but often true. And even the most deluded and subjugated of us are never so deluded that we can live for very long without, say, 8 hours a day of freedom. (it is easier for the rich who live in a world where they are considered valuable and gifted – believe me, they do not stare long at computer screens with those imperious flashing lights, and they have plenty of time in their 20 wakeful hours to refresh every biological function that needs refreshing….) Why 8 hours, as a minimum for even the poorest among the average among us? I don’t know. If we were born measuring things at Babylonian rates, instead of the inhuman decimal rates later and more degraded civilizations left to us as our inheritance, it might be more clear.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sparkon

    In modern days, many of the intellectually gifted people who used to get by on 4 hours sleep now need a few more due to all the flashing lights of the computers they spend so much of the day on.
     
    I don't know how you'd qualify your term "get by," or if it relates to a single night, or a regular habit.

    I can only speak for myself, but very many nights in a row of just 4 hours sleep would leave me a wreck, although I could probably "get by" and probably did when I was younger, a little more foolish, and meeting more dames than I had time or money to chase, but fortunately, I didn't let that stop me.

    Is there some kind of award in this thread for being the first to mention the connection between the title of James Thompson's article here, and the inspiration for Blade Runner ?

    Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. Dick. 10 to 1 says James Thompson knew that, and is poised even now to bestow upon me the Deckard Prize.

    Well, if the ability to get by on 4 hours sleep is a valid indicator of intellectually gifted people, I didn't make the cut.

    In fact, I don't even have a computer with all the flashing lights, but rather a solitary soft amber light on a USB drive running a live Linux session, that does start winking and blinking on those rare occasions when I do something especially spectacular.

    Getting back to sawing logs, catching Zzzzzs, or being enchanted by the Sandman, please let me recommend a little soothing white noise for your dreamy slumbers:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8Nj8jtEr74

    For do-it-yourself white noise, tune static on your FM receiver, or try an electric fan.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @YetAnotherAnon
    I must say an electric blanket is pretty good when you first get in. Not tempted?

    We had electric heating pads at one time which we’d bought for relieving back pains. They worked. I’ve no idea what became of them. Thanks for the reminder.

    On particularly cold nights I wear knee socks. They work too.

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  • @dearieme
    Ditto: no heating and window open. I often have a hot water bottle though, both for the warmth and because it relieves the ache of arthritis in my hands. Better an hwb than a painkiller.

    I must say an electric blanket is pretty good when you first get in. Not tempted?

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    • Replies: @dearieme
    We had electric heating pads at one time which we'd bought for relieving back pains. They worked. I've no idea what became of them. Thanks for the reminder.

    On particularly cold nights I wear knee socks. They work too.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @YetAnotherAnon
    When single I used to sleep with the window open and bedroom heating off no matter what time of year. I would sleep all night if the room was sub-zero but the bed was warm.

    For the first year of marriage I actually persuaded my wife (raised in a warm, centrally-heated home) of the virtues of this practice, but when our first child arrived the window was closed in winter and the radiator on.

    Our central heating is currently broken, England is in a lengthy cold spell, the kids are away and I'm sleeping really well in a bedroom maybe five degrees above zero.

    Ditto: no heating and window open. I often have a hot water bottle though, both for the warmth and because it relieves the ache of arthritis in my hands. Better an hwb than a painkiller.

    Read More
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    I must say an electric blanket is pretty good when you first get in. Not tempted?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Insomnia is the second-most prevalent mental disorder, with no sufficient treatment available.
     
    There are actually numerous treatments available such as taking Benadryl, Melatonin, Ambien, or vari0us other sedative drugs such as Trazodone or Seroquel, but for most people doing plenty of hard physical work and/or taking physical exercise such as running 3 miles or swimming 1/2 mile will help.

    Caffeine drinks should be avoided for 5 hours before bed time, and alcohol consumption is of dubious benefit and may lead to having to get up in the night to take a piss. Naps during the daytime should be avoided.

    The room should be dark and quiet and the temperature should be at a comfortable level so that you are neither shivering nor sweating. A comfortable bed also helps.

    If all else fails, reading a book of classic literature will put most people out in a few minutes.

    Of course, the most common mental disorder in America is hypochondria.

    Anticholinergics have a strong link to dementia. Too bad it took decades to determine the link.

    Seroquel is used to treat symptoms listed in the psychiatric comedy manual DSM-5. What the hell let’s use it to help people sleep. Criminally toxic but a real money maker.

    If you have trouble sleeping and are considering talking to a shrink, try experimenting with cannabis and alcohol first as those can be much safer.

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  • @Ron Unz
    Your comments have all been merged into "Lost american," which was the handle you had regularly used:

    http://www.unz.com/comments/all/?commenterfilter=Lost+american

    My earlier version hadn’t appeared but please leave this in place for the China reference.

    Just taking advantage of the opportunity to ask the most acute sceptical and scientific mind to consider my #25. Isn’t it prima facie absurd that everyday health punditry says nearly all of us aren’t getting enough sleep? My guess is that most are stressed in a competitive world by pressure created by the reasonably high IQ 5 and 6 hour a night sleepers. It would be interesting to apply your theorising about the rise of Chinese peasant intelligence equally to their stamina. I wonder if there are any stats.

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  • @Alden
    Age insomnia usually starts in the late sixties. It’s as natural as graying hair. And old men also have it.

    And if they don’t start having an insomnia problem what should or might be inferred?

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  • @Sollipsist
    "Wit" consists of several things, some of which play perfectly well with mental disorders. I doubt there's ever been a perfectly healthy comedian in the history of the world.

    Well, maybe Bob Newhart.

    Bob Hope? Ģeorge Burns? Charlie Chaplin? They certainly enjoyed physical health. What about the Marx Brothers?

    John Cleese is bipolar, so is Stephen Fry, Barry Humphries is merely a dry alcoholic so I don’t know if he counts. Rolf Harris…. oh dear!

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  • Ron yours is the kind of scientific mind I would like to comment on the (surely wellfounded) speculation I proffered in #25. Every second week one can find health advice from respectable sources that says most of us don’t get enough sleep (and need 8 hours approx) but without more it strikes me as rubbish. I once asked the then 98 year old mother of one of the world’s most successful and energetic media moguls what *her* average number of hours sleep had been in her adult life and she said “five and a half” without a pause. I believed her though I had thought it might less.

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  • @Lost american
    I would like to change my name to the original Lostamerican or a different name but when I try to do so I get blocked. This is why I have to use Anon. If someone can tell me how to give myself a name other than Anon I will be glad to do so.

    Your comments have all been merged into “Lost american,” which was the handle you had regularly used:

    http://www.unz.com/comments/all/?commenterfilter=Lost+american

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    My earlier version hadn't appeared but please leave this in place for the China reference.

    Just taking advantage of the opportunity to ask the most acute sceptical and scientific mind to consider my #25. Isn't it prima facie absurd that everyday health punditry says nearly all of us aren't getting enough sleep? My guess is that most are stressed in a competitive world by pressure created by the reasonably high IQ 5 and 6 hour a night sleepers. It would be interesting to apply your theorising about the rise of Chinese peasant intelligence equally to their stamina. I wonder if there are any stats.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I would like to change my name to the original Lostamerican or a different name but when I try to do so I get blocked. This is why I have to use Anon. If someone can tell me how to give myself a name other than Anon I will be glad to do so.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    Your comments have all been merged into "Lost american," which was the handle you had regularly used:

    http://www.unz.com/comments/all/?commenterfilter=Lost+american
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Clonidine is an old blood pressure pill now used for a few other conditions that will certainly help one get to sleep at night. It is very useful for those with “sympathetic overload”. It is not marketed as a sleeping pill but it is always very effective. Get your blood pressure and heart rate and other parameters reviewed by a savvy, open minded clinician and see how it works.

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  • I am still waiting to read of the research which would establish the prima facie highly probable fact that we do not all ideally need 7.5 to 8.5 hours sleep in 24 but that our needs are normally distributed as one would expect from the product of many genes.

    My guess is an average of about 7.25 hours with a sd of about 1 hour – very approximate.

    A complication is that sleep serves several functions so that it might be hard to find a single equivalent like g – or at any rate one that didn’t grossly neglect the importance of one or more functiona of sleep that were out of line in their time requirements with others. Thus there may well be people whose brains can function well on 4 hours sleep but whose heart, lungs and livers kill them young. N’est-ce pas?

    Read More
    • Replies: @middle aged vet . . .
    Wizard - I agree completely. The only thing that wears us down at differential rates is "responsibility" for others. Thus, a general will get worn down at a higher rate than a colonel, and so on.

    The reason the powers that be always claim we are not getting enough sleep is because they want to convince the sergeants that they are generals. They (we) are not.

    In modern days, many of the intellectually gifted people who used to get by on 4 hours sleep now need a few more due to all the flashing lights of the computers they spend so much of the day on.

    Also, if you have a demanding spouse, you need 8 hours of sleep because - let us be honest, spouses are often hard on each other - and for some of us, those 8 hours are the only hours of freedom we truly experience, due to demands of our spouses. Sad, but often true. And even the most deluded and subjugated of us are never so deluded that we can live for very long without, say, 8 hours a day of freedom. (it is easier for the rich who live in a world where they are considered valuable and gifted - believe me, they do not stare long at computer screens with those imperious flashing lights, and they have plenty of time in their 20 wakeful hours to refresh every biological function that needs refreshing....) Why 8 hours, as a minimum for even the poorest among the average among us? I don't know. If we were born measuring things at Babylonian rates, instead of the inhuman decimal rates later and more degraded civilizations left to us as our inheritance, it might be more clear.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Jonathan Mason

    Insomnia is the second-most prevalent mental disorder, with no sufficient treatment available.
     
    There are actually numerous treatments available such as taking Benadryl, Melatonin, Ambien, or vari0us other sedative drugs such as Trazodone or Seroquel, but for most people doing plenty of hard physical work and/or taking physical exercise such as running 3 miles or swimming 1/2 mile will help.

    Caffeine drinks should be avoided for 5 hours before bed time, and alcohol consumption is of dubious benefit and may lead to having to get up in the night to take a piss. Naps during the daytime should be avoided.

    The room should be dark and quiet and the temperature should be at a comfortable level so that you are neither shivering nor sweating. A comfortable bed also helps.

    If all else fails, reading a book of classic literature will put most people out in a few minutes.

    Of course, the most common mental disorder in America is hypochondria.

    When single I used to sleep with the window open and bedroom heating off no matter what time of year. I would sleep all night if the room was sub-zero but the bed was warm.

    For the first year of marriage I actually persuaded my wife (raised in a warm, centrally-heated home) of the virtues of this practice, but when our first child arrived the window was closed in winter and the radiator on.

    Our central heating is currently broken, England is in a lengthy cold spell, the kids are away and I’m sleeping really well in a bedroom maybe five degrees above zero.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    Ditto: no heating and window open. I often have a hot water bottle though, both for the warmth and because it relieves the ache of arthritis in my hands. Better an hwb than a painkiller.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “Wit” consists of several things, some of which play perfectly well with mental disorders. I doubt there’s ever been a perfectly healthy comedian in the history of the world.

    Well, maybe Bob Newhart.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Bob Hope? Ģeorge Burns? Charlie Chaplin? They certainly enjoyed physical health. What about the Marx Brothers?

    John Cleese is bipolar, so is Stephen Fry, Barry Humphries is merely a dry alcoholic so I don't know if he counts. Rolf Harris.... oh dear!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I agree — this is a significant sample size. In reading through the questionnaire, it’s very detailed and expansive.

    What thought was missing from it evaluation were questions pertaining to diet and physical activity as well as weight (fat distribution), blood sugar levels etc. I may have missed it, but questions about environment; exercise, single, stressers, kids, income . . . might have been helpful.

    I think it is safe to say that our genetics plays a role in almost everything, the real challenge is discovering how much and whether any adjustment would have a desired outcome.

    Interesting to say the least – very.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Insomnia is the second-most prevalent mental disorder, with no sufficient treatment available.

    There are actually numerous treatments available such as taking Benadryl, Melatonin, Ambien, or vari0us other sedative drugs such as Trazodone or Seroquel, but for most people doing plenty of hard physical work and/or taking physical exercise such as running 3 miles or swimming 1/2 mile will help.

    Caffeine drinks should be avoided for 5 hours before bed time, and alcohol consumption is of dubious benefit and may lead to having to get up in the night to take a piss. Naps during the daytime should be avoided.

    The room should be dark and quiet and the temperature should be at a comfortable level so that you are neither shivering nor sweating. A comfortable bed also helps.

    If all else fails, reading a book of classic literature will put most people out in a few minutes.

    Of course, the most common mental disorder in America is hypochondria.

    Read More
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    When single I used to sleep with the window open and bedroom heating off no matter what time of year. I would sleep all night if the room was sub-zero but the bed was warm.

    For the first year of marriage I actually persuaded my wife (raised in a warm, centrally-heated home) of the virtues of this practice, but when our first child arrived the window was closed in winter and the radiator on.

    Our central heating is currently broken, England is in a lengthy cold spell, the kids are away and I'm sleeping really well in a bedroom maybe five degrees above zero.
    , @Anonymous
    Anticholinergics have a strong link to dementia. Too bad it took decades to determine the link.

    Seroquel is used to treat symptoms listed in the psychiatric comedy manual DSM-5. What the hell let's use it to help people sleep. Criminally toxic but a real money maker.

    If you have trouble sleeping and are considering talking to a shrink, try experimenting with cannabis and alcohol first as those can be much safer.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Duxide
    I am not an expert on Mendelian randomization but I think one of its core assumptions is that the genetic markers are correlated to exposure have no direct effect on the effect phenotype. So we don't know if the effect is due to insomnia exposure (lack of sleep causing certain deficits) or to the direct effect of the insomnia-associated polymorphisms on the other traits. I guess Mendelian randomization works better with smaller sets of genes which we know are causally related only to the instrument (exposure affecting SNPs) variable. Conversely if we use thousands of SNPs, we lose track of pleiotropy but most importantly any potential direct effects, hence incur the risk of misattributing them to environmental exposure. However, this study apparently controlled for pleiotropy so this risk is reduced.

    Very funny.

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  • @Mike Garrett
    My sleep was troubled for many years. Then a doctor suggested I probably was missing an enzyme that breaks down stimulants like the caffeine in coffee, the theophylline in tea, or the theobromine in chocolate. For you the normal three hour half-life of these stimulants may well be thirty hours, using other enzymes to eventually break stimulants down. That was the key. I sleep fairly well now as long as I never drink more than one cup of coffee every few days and limit even green tea to a single cup in a day.

    Allow me to recommend chamomile tea. It’s not really “tea” of course but what the French would call an “infusion”. Roibos (Red Bush) “tea” from South Africa might also be worth a try.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mike Gerrett
    Yes, Daerieme, I drink roibos all the time, but my body has never liked chamomile. Also, in my 70s I have stopped drinking any herb teas with mints or licorich, which are known to suppress testosterone production.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Old fogey
    "[D]oes the menopause make much of a difference, doc?"

    Sure does. Trouble sleeping was the one and only secondary effect to the menopause that I noticed. Previously, I had gloriously out-slept everyone I knew. Now, it has all turned around.

    Thanks. Have you tried chamomile tea? It works a treat for me.

    Note to Mr Unz: a “thanks” button would be a welcome improvement to your excellent website.

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  • @Alden
    Age insomnia usually starts in the late sixties. It’s as natural as graying hair. And old men also have it.

    Thanks.

    Note to Mr Unz: a “thanks” button would be a welcome improvement to your excellent website.

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  • This is an old song with the title Insomnia.

    Recommended, althnugh I am unable to check the link now, data plan, etc. A good song of the time.

    To classify insomnia as a mental disorder, even further, as genetic in origin, seems nonsense to me.

    Old fogey above gives just one example where it is not so.

    In my own case, environmental factors were the main ones, firstly my parents fighting well after I should have been asleep, recovered from that, bad experiences (partly recovered), most recently, arsehole neighbours who trained their yappy toy dog to yap just inside their door, opposite mine, at all hours of the night.

    Sounded like it was in my room. That was for several years.

    I have moved away, but one never fully recovers from such a psychological attack.

    Dr. or Mr. Thompson, I appreciate your articles, bui have no trouble with insomnia that does not have an external cause.

    Sure, taking Tokyo as an example, many people asleep on the trains, but they are generally not really asleep, just making a show of it. In any case, many of them are so tired because of noisy environment, or because of a nasty spouse, or the interrupted sleep involved in looking after a baby.

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  • @Anonymous
    When "literary tradition collides with empiricism", I'm inclined to suspect that the empiricists are "educated" illiterates who cannot describe what they perceive. That would at least accord with my experience.

    ”Tradition” also can be translated as

    a mix between beautiful architecture and horrible ethics…

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  • @dearieme
    Twenty-three authors - enough for two football sides and a referee - and yet nobody can render "we had access to 38 similar question data" into good English.

    Onwards: "Are some people more prone to this disorder?" That's the way to bet.

    "insomnia, which increases with age, and is more common among women": does the menopause make much of a difference, doc?

    “[D]oes the menopause make much of a difference, doc?”

    Sure does. Trouble sleeping was the one and only secondary effect to the menopause that I noticed. Previously, I had gloriously out-slept everyone I knew. Now, it has all turned around.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    Thanks. Have you tried chamomile tea? It works a treat for me.

    Note to Mr Unz: a "thanks" button would be a welcome improvement to your excellent website.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Take Phenabut, you’ll sleep like the dead.
    .

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • My sleep was troubled for many years. Then a doctor suggested I probably was missing an enzyme that breaks down stimulants like the caffeine in coffee, the theophylline in tea, or the theobromine in chocolate. For you the normal three hour half-life of these stimulants may well be thirty hours, using other enzymes to eventually break stimulants down. That was the key. I sleep fairly well now as long as I never drink more than one cup of coffee every few days and limit even green tea to a single cup in a day.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    Allow me to recommend chamomile tea. It's not really "tea" of course but what the French would call an "infusion". Roibos (Red Bush) "tea" from South Africa might also be worth a try.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • When “literary tradition collides with empiricism”, I’m inclined to suspect that the empiricists are “educated” illiterates who cannot describe what they perceive. That would at least accord with my experience.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    ''Tradition'' also can be translated as

    a mix between beautiful architecture and horrible ethics...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • There’s some research suggesting people with depression may benefit from controlled sleep deprivation:

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170919140416.htm

    In general though, the effects of sleep deprivation are pretty negative. For example, if you’re someone who experiences a lot of generalised anxiety you’re mood swings can intensify quite dramatically if you go for a number of nights without getting a decent night’s sleep.

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    • Agree: Sollipsist
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “Insomnia is the second-most prevalent mental disorder, with no sufficient treatment available.”
    Liberalism is the first-most prevalent mental disorder, but sufficient treatment is, sadly, unlawful.

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  • @dearieme
    Twenty-three authors - enough for two football sides and a referee - and yet nobody can render "we had access to 38 similar question data" into good English.

    Onwards: "Are some people more prone to this disorder?" That's the way to bet.

    "insomnia, which increases with age, and is more common among women": does the menopause make much of a difference, doc?

    Age insomnia usually starts in the late sixties. It’s as natural as graying hair. And old men also have it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    Thanks.

    Note to Mr Unz: a "thanks" button would be a welcome improvement to your excellent website.
    , @Anon
    And if they don't start having an insomnia problem what should or might be inferred?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I’ve been a pretty light sleeper at least since adolescence. I’ve wondered whether maybe I got it from some ancestor, who survived either a nighttime raid or a prowling carnivore.

    One night I developed a fever and had the strangest pattern of sleep. I woke up, it seems at least a dozen times, maybe dozens of times. Each time I woke up, I felt better rested. Like I was experiencing a different mix of stages of sleep. Perhaps pure REM. At daybreak, I felt really great mentally. Only my body was so violently ill I didn’t really get a chance to test my brain on my normal routine.

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  • @anon
    Elimination of sonic and light disturbances in the bedroom are also very important to good sleep. Make sure the room is completely dark - even digital clock displays can interfere with restful sleep.
    Perhaps most important to this subject is the fact that a huge number of us are afflicted with sleep disordered breathing problems of varying severity, which can repeatedly wake us from restful sleep without bringing us to full consciousness - thus causing a multitude of symptoms that we're unable to connect to the actual time we spent sleeping. It has downstream effects which are debilitating and life threatening.
    I suffered with sleep apnea for many years without knowing it until it became so detrimental to my health that I tracked down the problem and fixed it. The problem is quite well understood now, and more and more doctors are becoming proficient in diagnosing and treating it. If you feel you're not getting enough good sleep, get tested. There are take-home computers which you wear overnight to see if you have a breathing restriction which only manifests itself when you're unconscious - something you can't discern for yourself.

    Elimination of sonic and light disturbances in the bedroom are also very important to good sleep.

    Insomnia is more common in Caucasians and I believe light eye pigmentation is the reason:

    In my opinion and according to my research, selection for blue/light eyes (low melanin levels in the iris) in/among Northern Europeans has to do with melatonin secretion suppression by light, which, as lighter skin (low melanin levels in the skin) allows for increased Vitamin D production, is evolutionaryily advantageous in cloudy latitudes far away from the equator.This melatonin secretion suppression by light leads to insomnia and hyperactivity (good for non-stop foraging during the short summers in Northern Europe) during the light summer months, and ensures one does not become lethargic, unproductive, and depressed ( e.g., seasonal affective disorder (SAD)) during the dark winter months in extreme northern or southern latitudes.
    [...]
    Our group has previously noted three effects of light iris pigmentation in patients with seasonal affective disorder (summarized in Goel et al., 2002): (a) a larger summertime increase in photopic sensitivity than patients with darker pigmentation; (b) lower depression and fatigability scores in winter; and (c) earlier awakening during dawn simulation therapy

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-2000-year-selection-of-the-british/#comment-1415671 Effect of Iris Pigmentation and Latitude on Chronotype and Sleep Timing White et al. (2003)
    [...]
    In contrast, other studies have found that minorities are at lower risk of insomnia. A survey of over 17,000 adults revealed that Whites reported more trouble falling asleep and staying asleep than did Blacks and Hispanics.(51) Similar findings were reported in a diary study examining self-reported chronic insomnia in 769 adults.(52)

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3824366/ Kingsbury et al. (2013)

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/isteve-metrics/#comment-1830062

    Personally, I am sleeping inclined:

    http://inclinedbedtherapy.com/

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  • Imsonia is a stuttering of circadian cycle. So what is sttutering**

    To talk, for most humans, it is automatic, they don’t think manually how to talk, they just learn it and use it in very [de vecchio] intuitive/faster way.

    But maybe virtually all stutter people believe, intuitively/instinctively, ”to talk” is manual and not automatically used. Instead just toss sounding words they try miserably, step by step, how to start to talk in fluent way.

    The secret of most true learnings is: never think too much about it. If you no have real or factually-certified facility to learn something it’s may mean you no have super-capacity to learn it, you no have motivation enough to do it or both.

    ”To sleep” is also, as well for most if not all activities, at very intuitive procedure. We don’t learn how to sleep, we just lie down in the bed and without our conscious attention we sleep. The same for stuttering.

    More worried/anxious the imsone is to sleep more time s/he will spend trying to sleep, truly. More worried s/he is, more s/he will try to do it in automatic/wrong way, step by step, something which happens without our conscious consent or command.

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  • Twenty-three authors – enough for two football sides and a referee – and yet nobody can render “we had access to 38 similar question data” into good English.

    Onwards: “Are some people more prone to this disorder?” That’s the way to bet.

    “insomnia, which increases with age, and is more common among women”: does the menopause make much of a difference, doc?

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    • Replies: @Alden
    Age insomnia usually starts in the late sixties. It’s as natural as graying hair. And old men also have it.
    , @Old fogey
    "[D]oes the menopause make much of a difference, doc?"

    Sure does. Trouble sleeping was the one and only secondary effect to the menopause that I noticed. Previously, I had gloriously out-slept everyone I knew. Now, it has all turned around.
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  • “if in the morning your partner claims not to have slept a wink, you can counter with your own observations about them having slept soundly for at least part of the night”: thank God you’re not a marriage counsellor, doc.

    “Insomnia is the second-most prevalent mental disorder”: I do dislike the imperialism that medicalises more and more of life.

    Anyway, chamomile tea. Just the job.

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  • anon • Disclaimer says:

    Elimination of sonic and light disturbances in the bedroom are also very important to good sleep. Make sure the room is completely dark – even digital clock displays can interfere with restful sleep.
    Perhaps most important to this subject is the fact that a huge number of us are afflicted with sleep disordered breathing problems of varying severity, which can repeatedly wake us from restful sleep without bringing us to full consciousness – thus causing a multitude of symptoms that we’re unable to connect to the actual time we spent sleeping. It has downstream effects which are debilitating and life threatening.
    I suffered with sleep apnea for many years without knowing it until it became so detrimental to my health that I tracked down the problem and fixed it. The problem is quite well understood now, and more and more doctors are becoming proficient in diagnosing and treating it. If you feel you’re not getting enough good sleep, get tested. There are take-home computers which you wear overnight to see if you have a breathing restriction which only manifests itself when you’re unconscious – something you can’t discern for yourself.

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    • Replies: @FKA Max

    Elimination of sonic and light disturbances in the bedroom are also very important to good sleep.
     
    Insomnia is more common in Caucasians and I believe light eye pigmentation is the reason:

    In my opinion and according to my research, selection for blue/light eyes (low melanin levels in the iris) in/among Northern Europeans has to do with melatonin secretion suppression by light, which, as lighter skin (low melanin levels in the skin) allows for increased Vitamin D production, is evolutionaryily advantageous in cloudy latitudes far away from the equator.This melatonin secretion suppression by light leads to insomnia and hyperactivity (good for non-stop foraging during the short summers in Northern Europe) during the light summer months, and ensures one does not become lethargic, unproductive, and depressed ( e.g., seasonal affective disorder (SAD)) during the dark winter months in extreme northern or southern latitudes.
    [...]
    Our group has previously noted three effects of light iris pigmentation in patients with seasonal affective disorder (summarized in Goel et al., 2002): (a) a larger summertime increase in photopic sensitivity than patients with darker pigmentation; (b) lower depression and fatigability scores in winter; and (c) earlier awakening during dawn simulation therapy

    – http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-2000-year-selection-of-the-british/#comment-1415671 Effect of Iris Pigmentation and Latitude on Chronotype and Sleep Timing White et al. (2003)
    [...]
    In contrast, other studies have found that minorities are at lower risk of insomnia. A survey of over 17,000 adults revealed that Whites reported more trouble falling asleep and staying asleep than did Blacks and Hispanics.(51) Similar findings were reported in a diary study examining self-reported chronic insomnia in 769 adults.(52)

    – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3824366/ Kingsbury et al. (2013)
     
    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/isteve-metrics/#comment-1830062

    Personally, I am sleeping inclined:

    http://inclinedbedtherapy.com/

    http://inclinedbedtherapy.com/images/inclinedbedtherapy_dot_com9.gif
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  • I am not an expert on Mendelian randomization but I think one of its core assumptions is that the genetic markers are correlated to exposure have no direct effect on the effect phenotype. So we don’t know if the effect is due to insomnia exposure (lack of sleep causing certain deficits) or to the direct effect of the insomnia-associated polymorphisms on the other traits. I guess Mendelian randomization works better with smaller sets of genes which we know are causally related only to the instrument (exposure affecting SNPs) variable. Conversely if we use thousands of SNPs, we lose track of pleiotropy but most importantly any potential direct effects, hence incur the risk of misattributing them to environmental exposure. However, this study apparently controlled for pleiotropy so this risk is reduced.

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    • Replies: @ploni almoni
    Very funny.
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  • African Americans sleep on average almost an hour less than do Euro Americans. The two groups have mean sleep times of 6.05 hours and 6.85 hours. This finding has recently been discussed by Brian Resnick in National Journal and by our Steve Sailer. Researchers reject a genetic explanation: "There is a consensus that innate biological...
  • Could be the reason they live such slothful lives rife with violence. Hard to figure out why the white man behaves the he does! I personally think it has to do with a genetic predisposition to lash out in hatred.
    The white man has only been civilized, for at best 5 centuries. Tens of thousands of years they lived as virtual land roaming savage animals. Natural selection selected the most violent psycopathic of the race that was successful in pro creating with as many negresess (their light skinned offspring) they could furthering their primitive behavior. It is futile to even attempt it. Anywhere the white man rests his head is an area that has experienced chaos and violence. From Africa to Europe, the white man leaves a wake destruction in its path.

    Just look at the destruction of native peoples all over the world! Not all of the white people are bad but I am sure the many mean well in their cognitive dissonant personalities as they want the best for all citizens and not just the ones who happen to have stolen power over the ages.

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  • @joe webb
    I live near Stanford U. I used to mess with my sleep cuz of work schedules and thus paid attention to Stanford Sleep Center info.

    Last time I checked, they recommended 8 to 9 hours sleep for long life and they liked naps.

    I am retired and allow myself as much sleep as my body wants. Stanford Sleep Center took the position that most people do not get enough sleep and rest. Most folks perceive me as 15 and sometimes more years younger than I am.

    Never smoked, don't drink, moderate exercise and allow myself as much sleep as my body wants. I recommend it. Nothing like a fully rested body and mind.

    Which gets me to work and stress. I think people get worn out and aged by overwork and stress.
    Which also contributes to alcohol etc. use. I have known a couple folks who would not let themselves get more than 5 hours of sleep. They always looked bad and dunno about their longevity.

    Joe Webb

    Well said.

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  • @Son of Dixie
    Could be the reason they live such slothful lives rife with violence. Hard to figure out why the African behaves the he does. I personally think it has to do with a genetic predisposition to lash out in hatred. The negroid also is extremely sexually active, if I m not mistaken, black females on average have more testosterone then Asain males. Black women are very sexually aggressive. It is not uncommon in black inner city areas for black girls to be having sex at age 12. I think is do to high infant mortality deaths in Africa, they evolved to mass produce children because so many would die at a young age.
    Prior to colonization the African lived as basically an animal without any medicine or technology. The African has only been civilized for a few centuries. Tens of thousands of years they lived as virtual land roaming savage animals. Natural selection selected the most violent psycopathic of the race that was successful in pro creating with as many negresess they could furthering their primitive behavior. Their is so pacifying or domesticating nature's creation of the negro. It is futile to even attempt it. Anywhere the negro rests his head is an area that has experienced chaos and violence. From Africa to Europe, the negroid leaves a wake destruction in its path.

    Clearly white plantation owners and their white employees failed lamentably in attempting the needed rate of miscegenation.

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  • @joe webb
    I hear that the brain requires a relatively large amount of energy compared to other organs.

    An example of that is the scientific racialist position that a large and intelligent brain becomes a relative deficit when the owner of such a brain is surrounded by dummies and consequently a society that does not have much to think about. The deficit was, as I recall, merely that of squandering of precious calories on a brain that gobbles up calories even when just idling in traffic like a muscle-car guzzling gas in gridlock. In a poor society, calories are hard come by and the smartie unlucky enough to be born into such a society is at risk, in the first place, of not having enough to eat, and this can lead to other deficits.

    Personally as an owner of a fairly well-endowed brain, I am heavily dependent on eating enough to keep said brain happy, but also in need of a lot of sleep, at least 8 hours and usually 9.

    As for dream activity, those dreams that I recall are pedestrian and of no apparent relatedness to my daily routine. The main exception being women who have made some kind of emotional impact. Politics, etc. which I think about far more than women, never appears in my dreams.

    Perhaps naively, I see sleep as merely rest and nothing more. Another observed phenomenon personally is listening to music when I am tired. I listen to mostly classical with a bit of straight ahead jazz now and then. I don't want to listen to music when I am tired. My brain is tired and does not want to process it. It is that simple. It wants to rest and go to sleep.

    What is also very interesting is how a short nap can revive me. This can I suppose be seen as some kind of "Unconscious" settling of accounts, or as merely profound rest. I put my money on the latter.

    Joe Webb

    You make an interesting point about music. I agree that listening to classical music is not good for going to sleep. Indeed the best soporific I have found is the news, repeated as it usually is without new and exciting news. An exception I found was the Canadian news which was so irritatingly boring that it had the opposite to the desired effect. The BBC followed by Deutsche Welle was fine….

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  • @Intelligent Dasein
    Sleep is not really about preserving energy or recharging the body's physical batteries, although these can be secondary effects of sleep. The primary and quintessential purpose of sleep, however, is maintaining proper mental functioning.

    We sleep so that we may dream. We dream so that we may integrate new sensory perceptions into our existing patterns of behavior and respond accordingly to an ever-changing environment. This is a necessity of animal existence.

    Plant life is defined by the nutritive faculty only and is the simplest form of life. Plants neither sense, move, nor reason; they just take in nourishment and grow, all of it unconsciously. A plant is not entirely separate from the landscape and setting in which it appears; rather it forms a part of that setting. Using a bit of poetic license, one might say that the plant is an extension from the soil in which it grows. It is the soil in which it grows--the life bearing capacity of the soil at highest potential.

    Animal life is defined by the both the nutritive and sensory faculties. Animals also take in nourishment and grow (indeed, the animal "body," considered in abstraction, is just a plant); but in addition to the body there is also the animal "self." Unlike the plant, every free-living animal is an individual, a microcosm within a macrocosm, and stands separate and apart from its environment. The ability to sense means that there is a distinction between that who senses and everything else in creation. The animal is not unconscious like the plant; it has to care for itself. It senses, and it must respond to that which it perceives. Such responses we call "motion," using the word in an expansive sense. Thus sensory perception and motion go together.

    In the higher animals, the interface between the microcosm and the macrocosm increasingly becomes embodied in the functioning of the nervous system, whose job it is to integrate the impressions left on the sense organs and to modulate the organism's responses to them. The nervous system's ability to perform this function, however, is not unlimited. When the organism can no longer receive sense impressions or generate responses, tiredness is experienced and sleep ensues. The body becomes a plant again; and the mind, temporarily cut off from pressing demands, is free to digest the material of the day.

    For human beings there is an additional element. Human life is defined by the nutritive, sensory, and rational faculties--man is the rational animal. Therefore, in addition to the mere sense impressions of the animals there is added to our experience the whole new dimension of words and concepts. This is what gives human dreams their particularly surreal quality, as the relationship between material sense impressions and immaterial concepts is undergoing constant adjustment in the theater of the mind.

    All of this can be summed up in a simple relationship: The greater the strains of mental activity, the more need there is to sleep and to dream, and in fact this is exactly what we find. Children, to whom the world is constantly affording new experiences and who are actively learning all the time, sleep and dream more than adults; intellectual workers dream more than manual laborers; people in new circumstances (e.g. moving or changing careers) experience an uptick in dream activity; and people under great duress, who have just endured the loss of a loved one or a divorce, or are otherwise in the depths of some spiritual crisis, even though they often suffer from sleep disturbances, are prone to have the most piercing and lurid dreams of all. Finally, people who are deliberately deprived of sleep in psychological experiments are known to undergo a pronounced mental deterioration which ultimately results in psychosis and death. Well-adjusted adults with settled lives and few existential concerns infrequently remember their dreams and can get by on the least amount of sleep.

    The relevance of these data to the present article I will leave to the reader to determine, but my guess is that the exact opposite of the article's contention is in fact the truth. Blacks today are generally less worried and stressed out than whites.

    And that only stands to reason.

    I agree with Another Fred but go a little further in wanting to add in the likelihood that many genes are involved in each of the important functions of sleep so that some people might be able to process their disorganised perceptual and argumentative data from the day much more quickly and efficiently than others thereby needing less sleep to make sense in the offoce next day. Cf. the genetically influenced differences in processing speed for math, for example. Other genes would mean that more or less time was needed for muscle repair or restoration of endocrine functions.

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  • @JayMan

    There was this recent story
     
    Indeed. Still that's only two more groups out of numerous across the world. I'd like to see more data.

    I would have liked to know whether they had considered the hypothesis that the hunter gatherers might have enjoyed several hours during which body and mind could get at least part of the benefits of proper sleep. One could make an approach to this anywhere by having some subjects spend say 5 hours sleeping and 4 hours meditating or engaged in rituals close to meditative relaxation.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    We only spend about 2 hours in REM sleep. Indeed, there are people who practice polyphasic sleep to minimize the amount of time they spend sleeping with no apparent ill effects. Surely this suggests that the great bulk of sleep is superfluous?

    I would be interested to know about “polyphasic sleep” and the studies which show that some people can sleep less asca result without harm. I only hear of the studies showing how many people are not getting enough sleep and the harm it causes.

    My theory is that the real intrinsic need for sleep is roughly normally distributed around an average of about 7.5 hours with sd roughly 50 minutes. But that might be complicated by the possibility that one person might be able to provide sleeping time for all neurological, hormonal and other physical repairs as well as consolidation of memories, calm anxieties and whatever else sleep is supposed to do for an adult in 5 hours a night’s sleep whereas another person might need 8 hours for health of heart, arteries and endocrine glands even though their mental functions were adequately served by 5 hours sleep. Those latter might be the senior execs who have heart attacks at 50 (used to be 10 years earlier in mybfather’s generation).

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  • Peter,

    The OKCupid database has data for various sleep-related variables. Since the sample is 70k world-wide, it would be possible to examine regional differences as well as racial. Sample size probably too small (few Africans use it) to examine state x race interactions except for the largest states.

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  • @e
    What kind of "inquiring mind" one expects from a scientist starts from a position of "it can't be biological differences"? Jesus.

    Yes, they lost me there. Of course the differential is genetic, Occam’s Razor….

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  • another apparently overlooked factor in the data presented is the age of folks, and especially whether they are retired and do not set the alarm.

    So far, my sleep needs have changed not a whit since childhood. If I do not get enough sleep, I feel tired, even with only an hour or so short of normal.Joe Webb

    Then for those attracted to Chinese 5 element theory and acupuncture, the theory claims that different organs get their charge as well as their rest at different hours of a 24 hour clock. On this stuff I am agnostic but I sleep better between the hours recommended by this theory…10 pm to 6 or 7 am, which of course is merely consistent with caveman life/nature.

    Joe Webb

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  • I live near Stanford U. I used to mess with my sleep cuz of work schedules and thus paid attention to Stanford Sleep Center info.

    Last time I checked, they recommended 8 to 9 hours sleep for long life and they liked naps.

    I am retired and allow myself as much sleep as my body wants. Stanford Sleep Center took the position that most people do not get enough sleep and rest. Most folks perceive me as 15 and sometimes more years younger than I am.

    Never smoked, don’t drink, moderate exercise and allow myself as much sleep as my body wants. I recommend it. Nothing like a fully rested body and mind.

    Which gets me to work and stress. I think people get worn out and aged by overwork and stress.
    Which also contributes to alcohol etc. use. I have known a couple folks who would not let themselves get more than 5 hours of sleep. They always looked bad and dunno about their longevity.

    Joe Webb

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    • Replies: @Jeff77450
    Well said.
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  • why is it bad to notice bad Jewish behavior?

    It’s bad when people obsess about Jewish behavior to the point that they don’t notice non-Jews doing exactly the same thing. If you think Mark Zuckerberg is bad because he’s Jewish, you probably won’t notice the harm being done by non-Jewish oligarchs, like Rupert Murdoch and the Koch Brothers.

    I don’t get how the siesta tradition would affect Africans more deeply than it affects Hispanics, Asians and people from the Mediterranean.

    Who said it did? Most of the sleep research has been done on Euro Americans and African Americans.

    According to this Americans of above-average intelligence get somewhat less sleep (and stay up later) than less-intelligent Americans:

    I find it a bit surprising that people stay out longer on Friday night (and the wee hours of Saturday morning) if they’re more intelligent.

    Quoting Malcolm Pollack, “Maybe black people and white people are just, well, different in some way that manifests itself, directly or indirectly, in different sleep patterns?”

    I agree. “Different” doesn’t necessarily mean “pathologically different.”

    Another prediction: African sleep length will vary less during the seasons relative to northerners, who tend to sleep longer during the winter and shorter during the summer.

    I’ve seen only one study that could test your prediction. It’s the one by Friborg et al. (2012) on Ghanaian and Norwegian subjects:

    Ghanaians

    weekdays – January 6.82 h August 6.90 h
    weekends – January 6.91 h August 7.03 h

    Norwegians

    weekdays – January 7.27 h August 7.14 h
    weekends – January 7.85 h. August 7.92 h

    Sleep doesn’t seem to vary seasonally among Norwegians, at least not to an appreciable extent.

    Economic factors, stress, poverty? Living conditions?

    Those factors were controlled.

    This study investigated the relationship between ethnicity, discrimination and multiple dimensions of sleep. Substantial ethnic differences were detected in PSG-assessed sleep architecture. Consistent with previous investigations, after controlling for differences in age, BMI, SES and smoking status, African American participants took longer to fall asleep, slept more time in Stage 2 and less time in SWS than Caucasian participants.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Lianne_Tomfohr/publication/51649994_Racial_differences_in_sleep_architecture_The_role_of_ethnic_discrimination/links/00b495314ab6f01fae000000.pdf

    I’d like to the see the data sorted by region of the country. America is a big diverse country ethnically and culturally. A blacks in New England exhibiting a greater or lesser sleep gap compared to blacks in the Deep South? How about white sleep patterns between Appalachia and the Midlands?

    That study has been done. Americans sleep the least in the South, with Ohio and West Virginia being the only non-Southern states with short sleep duration:

    Eighty-four counties were hotspots, with high levels of insufficient sleep (P < .01), and 45 were coldspots, with low insufficient sleep (P < .01). Hotspots were found in Alabama (1 county), Arkansas (1), Georgia (1), Illinois (1), Kentucky (25), Louisiana (1), Missouri (4), Ohio (7), Tennessee (12), Texas (9), Virginia (6), and West Virginia (16). Coldspots were found in Alabama (1 county), Georgia (2), Illinois (6), Iowa (6), Michigan (2), Minnesota (1), North Carolina (1), Texas (7), Virginia (12), and Wisconsin (6). Several contiguous hotspots and coldspots were evident. Notably, the 17 counties with the highest levels of insufficient sleep were found in a contiguous set at the intersection of Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, and West Virginia (all P < .0002).

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352721815001096

    The somewhat comical part of these studies is the assumption that all whites are the same when anyone who has traveled a bit knows this to be false. Similarly, the greatest genetic diversity among humans is in sub-Saharan Africa, thus meaning all blacks are not the same either.

    I agree. I would predict that southern Europeans likewise have shorter nighttime sleep duration.

    I don’t agree with your second point (the greatest genetic diversity among humans is in sub-Saharan Africa). Most of that diversity is non-functional. The sub-Saharan African gene pool has more junk variability because it has stayed put in the same continent. A lot of that variability was lost due to founder effects when modern humans spread to Eurasia.

    The greater the strains of mental activity, the more need there is to sleep and to dream,

    How would you reply to the previous commenter who noted that smarter people sleep less?

    Frost, more interesting, i.e., more work for you, would be a piece on the levels of mental illness in different ethnic groups.

    Mental illness is a product of genetics and environment. In the past, the suicide rate was low among the Inuit. Now, it is very high. The Inuit haven’t changed genetically. It’s the environment that’s changed. There was a government policy of moving the Inuit off the land and into settlements … where most of them have nothing at all to do. They feel useless and many kill themselves.

    Same with Euro Americans, especially working-class whites. Their jobs have been outsourced to China and insourced to illegal immigrants. They too have nothing to do. They feel useless and many kill themselves.

    I believe the Inuit, like Euro Americans, cannot handle inactivity. It seems to trigger suicidal ideation, and it’s difficult to shut down that process.

    Personally as an owner of a fairly well-endowed brain, I am heavily dependent on eating enough to keep said brain happy, but also in need of a lot of sleep, at least 8 hours and usually 9.

    Again, how do you reply to that previous commenter who noted that smarter people sleep less? (It’s not a big difference, and I suspect that many smart people have very active lives that encroach on sleep time).

    I’d expect self-reported sleep duration to be highly noisy. Heck, I doubt I could reliably tell you how long I sleep at night. As such, I wouldn’t rule out systematic biased error in sleep duration by race, leading to these apparent differences.

    No, we see these race differences in sleep duration even when the participants are monitored by sensors of various kinds:

    Sleep data acquisition was performed using the Embla A10 polysomnography system (Embla Systems Inc., Broomfield, CO USA). We assessed: Electroencephalography (C4/C3), electrooculography, chin electromyography, leg electromyography, airflow with an oronasal thermal sensor, airflow with an air pressure transducer, snore events with a piezo snore sensor, respiratory effort with piezo thoracic and abdominal belts, oxygen saturation with a pulse oximetersensor, and body position with a position indicator.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Lianne_Tomfohr/publication/51649994_Racial_differences_in_sleep_architecture_The_role_of_ethnic_discrimination/links/00b495314ab6f01fae000000.pdf

    Just by eyeballing the SDs, I would say there’s not a lot of noise in the data.

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  • Actually it was shown that black sleep less because blacks are outside robbing stores and whites while they sleep.

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  • @FirkinRidiculous
    There was this recent story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34544394

    There was this recent story

    Indeed. Still that’s only two more groups out of numerous across the world. I’d like to see more data.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I would have liked to know whether they had considered the hypothesis that the hunter gatherers might have enjoyed several hours during which body and mind could get at least part of the benefits of proper sleep. One could make an approach to this anywhere by having some subjects spend say 5 hours sleeping and 4 hours meditating or engaged in rituals close to meditative relaxation.
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  • less sleep makes you lasy and dumb is all i got from this.

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  • @jon

    Assuming sleep is essentially just a way of keeping energy expenditures down when they’re not needed
     
    It's much more than that, though. They have done studies where they allow a subject to get a normal total amount of sleep, but don't allow them to go into REM sleep. It really messes a person up.

    This is also why 'drunk sleeping' is never really restful, even though you might sleep longer than normal after a night out. The alcohol messes with your REM sleep.

    We only spend about 2 hours in REM sleep. Indeed, there are people who practice polyphasic sleep to minimize the amount of time they spend sleeping with no apparent ill effects. Surely this suggests that the great bulk of sleep is superfluous?

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I would be interested to know about "polyphasic sleep" and the studies which show that some people can sleep less asca result without harm. I only hear of the studies showing how many people are not getting enough sleep and the harm it causes.

    My theory is that the real intrinsic need for sleep is roughly normally distributed around an average of about 7.5 hours with sd roughly 50 minutes. But that might be complicated by the possibility that one person might be able to provide sleeping time for all neurological, hormonal and other physical repairs as well as consolidation of memories, calm anxieties and whatever else sleep is supposed to do for an adult in 5 hours a night's sleep whereas another person might need 8 hours for health of heart, arteries and endocrine glands even though their mental functions were adequately served by 5 hours sleep. Those latter might be the senior execs who have heart attacks at 50 (used to be 10 years earlier in mybfather's generation).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Could be the reason they live such slothful lives rife with violence. Hard to figure out why the African behaves the he does. I personally think it has to do with a genetic predisposition to lash out in hatred. The negroid also is extremely sexually active, if I m not mistaken, black females on average have more testosterone then Asain males. Black women are very sexually aggressive. It is not uncommon in black inner city areas for black girls to be having sex at age 12. I think is do to high infant mortality deaths in Africa, they evolved to mass produce children because so many would die at a young age.
    Prior to colonization the African lived as basically an animal without any medicine or technology. The African has only been civilized for a few centuries. Tens of thousands of years they lived as virtual land roaming savage animals. Natural selection selected the most violent psycopathic of the race that was successful in pro creating with as many negresess they could furthering their primitive behavior. Their is so pacifying or domesticating nature’s creation of the negro. It is futile to even attempt it. Anywhere the negro rests his head is an area that has experienced chaos and violence. From Africa to Europe, the negroid leaves a wake destruction in its path.

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    • Disagree: Stephen R. Diamond
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Clearly white plantation owners and their white employees failed lamentably in attempting the needed rate of miscegenation.
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  • @Wally
    antisemite:

    any thought of person that a Jew doesn't like

    Hater of Jews: You

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  • @JayMan
    I'd like to see data on average sleep duration across the world.

    I'd expect self-reported sleep duration to be highly noisy. Heck, I doubt I could reliably tell you how long I sleep at night. As such, I wouldn't rule out systematic biased error in sleep duration by race, leading to these apparent differences.
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    • Replies: @JayMan

    There was this recent story
     
    Indeed. Still that's only two more groups out of numerous across the world. I'd like to see more data.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I’d like to see data on average sleep duration across the world.

    I’d expect self-reported sleep duration to be highly noisy. Heck, I doubt I could reliably tell you how long I sleep at night. As such, I wouldn’t rule out systematic biased error in sleep duration by race, leading to these apparent differences.

    Read More
    • Replies: @FirkinRidiculous
    There was this recent story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34544394
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @joe webb
    I hear that the brain requires a relatively large amount of energy compared to other organs.

    An example of that is the scientific racialist position that a large and intelligent brain becomes a relative deficit when the owner of such a brain is surrounded by dummies and consequently a society that does not have much to think about. The deficit was, as I recall, merely that of squandering of precious calories on a brain that gobbles up calories even when just idling in traffic like a muscle-car guzzling gas in gridlock. In a poor society, calories are hard come by and the smartie unlucky enough to be born into such a society is at risk, in the first place, of not having enough to eat, and this can lead to other deficits.

    Personally as an owner of a fairly well-endowed brain, I am heavily dependent on eating enough to keep said brain happy, but also in need of a lot of sleep, at least 8 hours and usually 9.

    As for dream activity, those dreams that I recall are pedestrian and of no apparent relatedness to my daily routine. The main exception being women who have made some kind of emotional impact. Politics, etc. which I think about far more than women, never appears in my dreams.

    Perhaps naively, I see sleep as merely rest and nothing more. Another observed phenomenon personally is listening to music when I am tired. I listen to mostly classical with a bit of straight ahead jazz now and then. I don't want to listen to music when I am tired. My brain is tired and does not want to process it. It is that simple. It wants to rest and go to sleep.

    What is also very interesting is how a short nap can revive me. This can I suppose be seen as some kind of "Unconscious" settling of accounts, or as merely profound rest. I put my money on the latter.

    Joe Webb

    As for dream activity, those dreams that I recall are pedestrian and of no apparent relatedness to my daily routine.

    That’s interesting, my experience has been the exact opposite. My dreams always connect to my daily life. They usually follow the typical bizarro world plot line of a dream, but each part of the dream can be traced back to something in my life (usually something that is connected with high emotions, good or bad).

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Intelligent Dasein
    Sleep is not really about preserving energy or recharging the body's physical batteries, although these can be secondary effects of sleep. The primary and quintessential purpose of sleep, however, is maintaining proper mental functioning.

    We sleep so that we may dream. We dream so that we may integrate new sensory perceptions into our existing patterns of behavior and respond accordingly to an ever-changing environment. This is a necessity of animal existence.

    Plant life is defined by the nutritive faculty only and is the simplest form of life. Plants neither sense, move, nor reason; they just take in nourishment and grow, all of it unconsciously. A plant is not entirely separate from the landscape and setting in which it appears; rather it forms a part of that setting. Using a bit of poetic license, one might say that the plant is an extension from the soil in which it grows. It is the soil in which it grows--the life bearing capacity of the soil at highest potential.

    Animal life is defined by the both the nutritive and sensory faculties. Animals also take in nourishment and grow (indeed, the animal "body," considered in abstraction, is just a plant); but in addition to the body there is also the animal "self." Unlike the plant, every free-living animal is an individual, a microcosm within a macrocosm, and stands separate and apart from its environment. The ability to sense means that there is a distinction between that who senses and everything else in creation. The animal is not unconscious like the plant; it has to care for itself. It senses, and it must respond to that which it perceives. Such responses we call "motion," using the word in an expansive sense. Thus sensory perception and motion go together.

    In the higher animals, the interface between the microcosm and the macrocosm increasingly becomes embodied in the functioning of the nervous system, whose job it is to integrate the impressions left on the sense organs and to modulate the organism's responses to them. The nervous system's ability to perform this function, however, is not unlimited. When the organism can no longer receive sense impressions or generate responses, tiredness is experienced and sleep ensues. The body becomes a plant again; and the mind, temporarily cut off from pressing demands, is free to digest the material of the day.

    For human beings there is an additional element. Human life is defined by the nutritive, sensory, and rational faculties--man is the rational animal. Therefore, in addition to the mere sense impressions of the animals there is added to our experience the whole new dimension of words and concepts. This is what gives human dreams their particularly surreal quality, as the relationship between material sense impressions and immaterial concepts is undergoing constant adjustment in the theater of the mind.

    All of this can be summed up in a simple relationship: The greater the strains of mental activity, the more need there is to sleep and to dream, and in fact this is exactly what we find. Children, to whom the world is constantly affording new experiences and who are actively learning all the time, sleep and dream more than adults; intellectual workers dream more than manual laborers; people in new circumstances (e.g. moving or changing careers) experience an uptick in dream activity; and people under great duress, who have just endured the loss of a loved one or a divorce, or are otherwise in the depths of some spiritual crisis, even though they often suffer from sleep disturbances, are prone to have the most piercing and lurid dreams of all. Finally, people who are deliberately deprived of sleep in psychological experiments are known to undergo a pronounced mental deterioration which ultimately results in psychosis and death. Well-adjusted adults with settled lives and few existential concerns infrequently remember their dreams and can get by on the least amount of sleep.

    The relevance of these data to the present article I will leave to the reader to determine, but my guess is that the exact opposite of the article's contention is in fact the truth. Blacks today are generally less worried and stressed out than whites.

    And that only stands to reason.

    An important function of sleep that you omit is the disposal of toxic residues and waste derived from a days activities. As you note the brain consumes a large portion of the body’s energy. That consumption generates waste that must be removed. Most of the waste removal occurs during sleep.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anatoly Karlin
    Assuming sleep is essentially just a way of keeping energy expenditures down when they're not needed (humans can't hunt or gather at night) it stands to reason that northern peoples would sleep more on average.

    Another prediction: African sleep length will vary less during the seasons relative to northerners, who tend to sleep longer during the winter and shorter during the summer.

    Assuming sleep is essentially just a way of keeping energy expenditures down when they’re not needed

    It’s much more than that, though. They have done studies where they allow a subject to get a normal total amount of sleep, but don’t allow them to go into REM sleep. It really messes a person up.

    This is also why ‘drunk sleeping’ is never really restful, even though you might sleep longer than normal after a night out. The alcohol messes with your REM sleep.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    We only spend about 2 hours in REM sleep. Indeed, there are people who practice polyphasic sleep to minimize the amount of time they spend sleeping with no apparent ill effects. Surely this suggests that the great bulk of sleep is superfluous?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Jeff77450
    Very Bright (IQ > 125)
    Weekday: 12:29 am -7:52 am
    Weekend: 1:44 am -11:07 am

    I need to start staying up later then.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I hear that the brain requires a relatively large amount of energy compared to other organs.

    An example of that is the scientific racialist position that a large and intelligent brain becomes a relative deficit when the owner of such a brain is surrounded by dummies and consequently a society that does not have much to think about. The deficit was, as I recall, merely that of squandering of precious calories on a brain that gobbles up calories even when just idling in traffic like a muscle-car guzzling gas in gridlock. In a poor society, calories are hard come by and the smartie unlucky enough to be born into such a society is at risk, in the first place, of not having enough to eat, and this can lead to other deficits.

    Personally as an owner of a fairly well-endowed brain, I am heavily dependent on eating enough to keep said brain happy, but also in need of a lot of sleep, at least 8 hours and usually 9.

    As for dream activity, those dreams that I recall are pedestrian and of no apparent relatedness to my daily routine. The main exception being women who have made some kind of emotional impact. Politics, etc. which I think about far more than women, never appears in my dreams.

    Perhaps naively, I see sleep as merely rest and nothing more. Another observed phenomenon personally is listening to music when I am tired. I listen to mostly classical with a bit of straight ahead jazz now and then. I don’t want to listen to music when I am tired. My brain is tired and does not want to process it. It is that simple. It wants to rest and go to sleep.

    What is also very interesting is how a short nap can revive me. This can I suppose be seen as some kind of “Unconscious” settling of accounts, or as merely profound rest. I put my money on the latter.

    Joe Webb

    Read More
    • Replies: @jon

    As for dream activity, those dreams that I recall are pedestrian and of no apparent relatedness to my daily routine.
     
    That's interesting, my experience has been the exact opposite. My dreams always connect to my daily life. They usually follow the typical bizarro world plot line of a dream, but each part of the dream can be traced back to something in my life (usually something that is connected with high emotions, good or bad).
    , @Wizard of Oz
    You make an interesting point about music. I agree that listening to classical music is not good for going to sleep. Indeed the best soporific I have found is the news, repeated as it usually is without new and exciting news. An exception I found was the Canadian news which was so irritatingly boring that it had the opposite to the desired effect. The BBC followed by Deutsche Welle was fine....
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Frost, more interesting, i.e., more work for you, would be a piece on the levels of mental illness in different ethnic groups. Does it fit the usual Rushton pattern?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Sleep is not really about preserving energy or recharging the body’s physical batteries, although these can be secondary effects of sleep. The primary and quintessential purpose of sleep, however, is maintaining proper mental functioning.

    We sleep so that we may dream. We dream so that we may integrate new sensory perceptions into our existing patterns of behavior and respond accordingly to an ever-changing environment. This is a necessity of animal existence.

    Plant life is defined by the nutritive faculty only and is the simplest form of life. Plants neither sense, move, nor reason; they just take in nourishment and grow, all of it unconsciously. A plant is not entirely separate from the landscape and setting in which it appears; rather it forms a part of that setting. Using a bit of poetic license, one might say that the plant is an extension from the soil in which it grows. It is the soil in which it grows–the life bearing capacity of the soil at highest potential.

    Animal life is defined by the both the nutritive and sensory faculties. Animals also take in nourishment and grow (indeed, the animal “body,” considered in abstraction, is just a plant); but in addition to the body there is also the animal “self.” Unlike the plant, every free-living animal is an individual, a microcosm within a macrocosm, and stands separate and apart from its environment. The ability to sense means that there is a distinction between that who senses and everything else in creation. The animal is not unconscious like the plant; it has to care for itself. It senses, and it must respond to that which it perceives. Such responses we call “motion,” using the word in an expansive sense. Thus sensory perception and motion go together.

    In the higher animals, the interface between the microcosm and the macrocosm increasingly becomes embodied in the functioning of the nervous system, whose job it is to integrate the impressions left on the sense organs and to modulate the organism’s responses to them. The nervous system’s ability to perform this function, however, is not unlimited. When the organism can no longer receive sense impressions or generate responses, tiredness is experienced and sleep ensues. The body becomes a plant again; and the mind, temporarily cut off from pressing demands, is free to digest the material of the day.

    For human beings there is an additional element. Human life is defined by the nutritive, sensory, and rational faculties–man is the rational animal. Therefore, in addition to the mere sense impressions of the animals there is added to our experience the whole new dimension of words and concepts. This is what gives human dreams their particularly surreal quality, as the relationship between material sense impressions and immaterial concepts is undergoing constant adjustment in the theater of the mind.

    All of this can be summed up in a simple relationship: The greater the strains of mental activity, the more need there is to sleep and to dream, and in fact this is exactly what we find. Children, to whom the world is constantly affording new experiences and who are actively learning all the time, sleep and dream more than adults; intellectual workers dream more than manual laborers; people in new circumstances (e.g. moving or changing careers) experience an uptick in dream activity; and people under great duress, who have just endured the loss of a loved one or a divorce, or are otherwise in the depths of some spiritual crisis, even though they often suffer from sleep disturbances, are prone to have the most piercing and lurid dreams of all. Finally, people who are deliberately deprived of sleep in psychological experiments are known to undergo a pronounced mental deterioration which ultimately results in psychosis and death. Well-adjusted adults with settled lives and few existential concerns infrequently remember their dreams and can get by on the least amount of sleep.

    The relevance of these data to the present article I will leave to the reader to determine, but my guess is that the exact opposite of the article’s contention is in fact the truth. Blacks today are generally less worried and stressed out than whites.

    And that only stands to reason.

    Read More
    • Replies: @another fred
    An important function of sleep that you omit is the disposal of toxic residues and waste derived from a days activities. As you note the brain consumes a large portion of the body's energy. That consumption generates waste that must be removed. Most of the waste removal occurs during sleep.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    I agree with Another Fred but go a little further in wanting to add in the likelihood that many genes are involved in each of the important functions of sleep so that some people might be able to process their disorganised perceptual and argumentative data from the day much more quickly and efficiently than others thereby needing less sleep to make sense in the offoce next day. Cf. the genetically influenced differences in processing speed for math, for example. Other genes would mean that more or less time was needed for muscle repair or restoration of endocrine functions.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I’d like to the see the data sorted by region of the country. America is a big diverse country ethnically and culturally. A blacks in New England exhibiting a greater or lesser sleep gap compared to blacks in the Deep South? How about white sleep patterns between Appalachia and the Midlands?

    The somewhat comical part of these studies is the assumption that all whites are the same when anyone who has traveled a bit knows this to be false. Similarly, the greatest genetic diversity among humans is in sub-Saharan Africa, thus meaning all blacks are not the same either.

    Or, we can fall back on magic and pretend the Sandman is a Racist.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Wally [AKA "BobbyBeGood"] says: • Website
    @Priss Factor
    Whatever the case, suppose the finding was that whites sleep less than blacks.

    Then, the PC police would be saying whites succeed more because they are awake more and sleep less.
    PC police would say blacks sleep more because 'racism' stresses them out, requiring them to sleep more and do less.

    It's how PC works. No matter what the data, blacks are victims and whits are villains.

    Same with whites and Jews. If Jews do bad, the narrative isn't "Jews did bad" but "whites might have 'antisemitic' thoughts about Jews who did bad", therefore, whites are put on the moral defensive even though it is Jews who did bad. Btw, if lots of Jews do bad and if noticing this fact is 'antisemitic', isn't 'antisemitism' a good thing for honestly noticing bad Jewish behavior?

    When Wasps had the power and Jews noticed a lot of bad stuff done by Wasps, that was seen as good. So, why is it bad to notice bad Jewish behavior?

    antisemite:

    any thought of person that a Jew doesn’t like

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrew E. Mathis
    Hater of Jews: You
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • No one’s mentioned yet an important data point, the Yale email atrocity:

    This email and the subsequent reaction to it have interrupted their lives. I have friends who are not going to class, who are not doing their homework, WHO ARE LOSING SLEEP [emphasis added], who are skipping meals, and who are having breakdowns. I feel drained.

    This article by a member of the Black Student Alliance is clear proof that racism is the cause not only of sleep disparities, but of disparities in educational achievement, mental health, and nutrition as well.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Economic factors, stress, poverty? Living conditions? Smaller/larger households, type of job? TV use, eating patterns. Family conditions, drug and alcohol use? There are so many potential confounding factors.

    Any time we are talking about something as a characteristic of race there needs to be race wide research. Do whites in Europe or Africa sleep more than blacks. Do blacks in Africa really sleep less than whites? We need more research and hopefully some black researchers will get involved.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I dated a great girl from Sierra Leone for a year and learned that sun is for relaxing and shivering is for activating. I learned that because I knew the opposite all my life, without knowing I knew that. I have often wanted to simplify my experience reductively and say that blacks are basically all bipolar, because what’s with the range of their emotions, I mean it’s patently abnormal you know? Big heat makes them relax and trigger happy too?… well because they’d rather relax, except for that blazed nigga tryin to debo my spot. Still killing in cold Chicago? Well, they’re kinda cold blooded, in an activating sense, you know?. With these people there’s an exception to every rule and you have to start by reversing the rules. The most consistent, scientific environment I suppose is of course prison. And yep, they were always the majority early risers, every morn, up playin spades. And rapping all afternoon till rec.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Assuming sleep is essentially just a way of keeping energy expenditures down when they’re not needed (humans can’t hunt or gather at night) it stands to reason that northern peoples would sleep more on average.

    Another prediction: African sleep length will vary less during the seasons relative to northerners, who tend to sleep longer during the winter and shorter during the summer.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jon

    Assuming sleep is essentially just a way of keeping energy expenditures down when they’re not needed
     
    It's much more than that, though. They have done studies where they allow a subject to get a normal total amount of sleep, but don't allow them to go into REM sleep. It really messes a person up.

    This is also why 'drunk sleeping' is never really restful, even though you might sleep longer than normal after a night out. The alcohol messes with your REM sleep.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • It would be interesting to extract some figures on the average length of sleep allowed to male and to female slaves in the US, and the siestas allowed to them; as well, of course, as any comparable figures for the rest of the Americas.

    Especially in the high mortality sugar plantations of the West Indies there could, I hypothesise, have been selection for those able to survive on little sleep without excessively damaging consequences for their health.

    Anything known? There doesn’t appear to be enough evidence about Africans to rule out the possibility of the way slaves were treated being a factor.

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  • When blacks are actually asked about sleep and sleep quality, they report fewer problems than whites or Hispanics do.

    In 2010 and 2014, the GSS asked respondents how often they’ve had trouble getting to sleep or staying asleep in the past year. The percentages among whites (n = 1,802), blacks (n = 354), and Hispanics (n = 127) who answered either “often” or “sometimes”:

    Whites — 57.5%
    Hispanics — 55.2%
    Blacks — 48.4%

    Quoting Malcolm Pollack, “Maybe black people and white people are just, well, different in some way that manifests itself, directly or indirectly, in different sleep patterns?”

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  • @Jeff77450
    According to this Americans of above-average intelligence get somewhat less sleep (and stay up later) than less-intelligent Americans: http://elitedaily.com/life/culture/night-owls-creative-intelligent/686025/

    Bedtimes and wake-up times for Americans in their 20s by IQ.

    Very Dull (IQ < 75)
    Weekday: 11:41 pm -7:20 am
    Weekend: 12:35 am -10:09 pm

    Normal (90 < IQ 125)
    Weekday: 12:29 am -7:52 am
    Weekend: 1:44 am -11:07 am

    Very Bright (IQ > 125)
    Weekday: 12:29 am -7:52 am
    Weekend: 1:44 am -11:07 am

    Read More
    • Replies: @jon
    I need to start staying up later then.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • According to this Americans of above-average intelligence get somewhat less sleep (and stay up later) than less-intelligent Americans: http://elitedaily.com/life/culture/night-owls-creative-intelligent/686025/

    Bedtimes and wake-up times for Americans in their 20s by IQ.

    Very Dull (IQ < 75)
    Weekday: 11:41 pm -7:20 am
    Weekend: 12:35 am -10:09 pm

    Normal (90 < IQ 125)
    Weekday: 12:29 am -7:52 am
    Weekend: 1:44 am -11:07 am

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jeff77450
    Very Bright (IQ > 125)
    Weekday: 12:29 am -7:52 am
    Weekend: 1:44 am -11:07 am
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night#Duration_and_geography

    http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many-myths-of-paleo-sleeping/410707/

    It seems to me being that being asleep is the safest thing to do when it is dark and there are predators and other dangers. You are not going to be able to find food blundering around in the dark, and might easily become food. Long nights would select for sleeping longer. The above linked study found hunter gatherers were woken before dawn by the cold and moved about most in the morning. They avoided the midday sun and that time for taking a nap seems logical.

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  • @Myra Esoteric
    I don't get how the siesta tradition would affect Africans more deeply than it affects Hispanics, Asians and people from the Mediterranean. Siesta was a thing in China up until the '90s.

    Where you got the info from? “Siesta” is still a BIG rutine thing in China now.

    Med Siesta is for the same purpose as that in China, but for quite a different ends. Both aim at preserving energy level, Med one for fiestas in the mid nights, China one for the better efficiency during the afternoons.

    It would be interesting though to see the correlation between avg brain size and the lenghth of sleep hours.

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  • What kind of “inquiring mind” one expects from a scientist starts from a position of “it can’t be biological differences”? Jesus.

    Read More
    • Replies: @pyrrhus
    Yes, they lost me there. Of course the differential is genetic, Occam's Razor....
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I don’t get how the siesta tradition would affect Africans more deeply than it affects Hispanics, Asians and people from the Mediterranean. Siesta was a thing in China up until the ’90s.

    Read More
    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    Where you got the info from? "Siesta" is still a BIG rutine thing in China now.

    Med Siesta is for the same purpose as that in China, but for quite a different ends. Both aim at preserving energy level, Med one for fiestas in the mid nights, China one for the better efficiency during the afternoons.

    It would be interesting though to see the correlation between avg brain size and the lenghth of sleep hours.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factory"] says: • Website

    Whatever the case, suppose the finding was that whites sleep less than blacks.

    Then, the PC police would be saying whites succeed more because they are awake more and sleep less.
    PC police would say blacks sleep more because ‘racism’ stresses them out, requiring them to sleep more and do less.

    It’s how PC works. No matter what the data, blacks are victims and whits are villains.

    Same with whites and Jews. If Jews do bad, the narrative isn’t “Jews did bad” but “whites might have ‘antisemitic’ thoughts about Jews who did bad”, therefore, whites are put on the moral defensive even though it is Jews who did bad. Btw, if lots of Jews do bad and if noticing this fact is ‘antisemitic’, isn’t ‘antisemitism’ a good thing for honestly noticing bad Jewish behavior?

    When Wasps had the power and Jews noticed a lot of bad stuff done by Wasps, that was seen as good. So, why is it bad to notice bad Jewish behavior?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    antisemite:

    any thought of person that a Jew doesn't like
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.