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    This is an argument that is doing the rounds on the Internet after Iran's condemnation of the Saudi execution of 47 people (including at least 4 "politicals") to mark the New Year and the ensuing breakdown in Iranian-Saudi diplomatic ties. After all, they say, Iran executes a lot more people than the Saudis.   One...
  • @Anatoly Karlin
    There is no uniform HBD narrative.

    Some are less sophisticated and some are more so. The latter which is what you'll find on most of the popular HBD blogs take into account the relative prevalence of consanguineous marriage/inbreeding.

    There is no uniform HBD narrative.

    Proving that it is more wishful psuedo-science than objective hard science.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bliss

    if Lynn’s numbers are to be believed their IQ is about 79.

     

    According to Lynn the IQ of Saudi Arabia is 80, the IQ of Syria is 79 and the IQ of Mauritius is 89:

    http://www.ttu.ee/public/m/mart-murdvee/EconPsy/2/Lynn_Meisenberg_2010_National_IQs_calculated_and_validated_for_108_nations.pdf


    This is the opposite of what the HBD narrative claims is "race realism", Mauritius being 25% african and 68% indian (overwhelmingly low caste). While Syrians (and lebanese) are the whitest of the MENAs.

    There is no uniform HBD narrative.

    Some are less sophisticated and some are more so. The latter which is what you’ll find on most of the popular HBD blogs take into account the relative prevalence of consanguineous marriage/inbreeding.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bliss

    There is no uniform HBD narrative.
     
    Proving that it is more wishful psuedo-science than objective hard science.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SFG
    Very nice work, I'm just wondering about that last bit--why do neocons care so much about bringing down Assad? What does it have to do with Israel?

    Assad’s allied with Iran, which Israel considers its main enemy.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Very nice work, I’m just wondering about that last bit–why do neocons care so much about bringing down Assad? What does it have to do with Israel?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Stephen R. Diamond
    Assad's allied with Iran, which Israel considers its main enemy.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @wolfy
    if Lynn's numbers are to be believed their IQ is about 79.

    if Lynn’s numbers are to be believed their IQ is about 79.

    According to Lynn the IQ of Saudi Arabia is 80, the IQ of Syria is 79 and the IQ of Mauritius is 89:

    http://www.ttu.ee/public/m/mart-murdvee/EconPsy/2/Lynn_Meisenberg_2010_National_IQs_calculated_and_validated_for_108_nations.pdf

    This is the opposite of what the HBD narrative claims is “race realism”, Mauritius being 25% african and 68% indian (overwhelmingly low caste). While Syrians (and lebanese) are the whitest of the MENAs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    There is no uniform HBD narrative.

    Some are less sophisticated and some are more so. The latter which is what you'll find on most of the popular HBD blogs take into account the relative prevalence of consanguineous marriage/inbreeding.
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  • @Svigor

    Not any particularly strong ones. I’m not an area expert.

    One hypothesis – socially, Iran is more modern and industrialized than Saudi Arabia, so perhaps fewer of the traditional social structures that curb crime have survived.
     
    Sharia law means the legal system is in line with a hell of a lot of what the populace feels strongly about. It's from God, or whatever. The law does not play in SA. They'll chop your hand of 'n' sheit. The welfare state buys everyone off with freebies. I bet property crime is very low in SA for those two reasons. Stuff rarely jumps off over women because they're all draped in cloth and escorted everywhere by male relatives. There's a revenge culture, so people are going to get their pound of flesh if you harm them, though this is probably true in Iran as well. As Anatoly pointed out, Iran is more developed, which means more people living in cities, which means more anonymity and more crime.

    Carrot + stick + lower population density and more conservative culture.

    Iran is under sanctions, last I heard.

    The only logical argument against the death penalty
     
    I don't trust gov'ts with irreversible punishments like the death penalty. Except maybe in well-documented cases where the evidence is ironclad, but it seems hinky to even trust gov'ts enough to make that decision.

    I don’t trust gov’ts with irreversible punishments like the death penalty.

    That’s indeed the key issue.

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  • Not any particularly strong ones. I’m not an area expert.

    One hypothesis – socially, Iran is more modern and industrialized than Saudi Arabia, so perhaps fewer of the traditional social structures that curb crime have survived.

    Sharia law means the legal system is in line with a hell of a lot of what the populace feels strongly about. It’s from God, or whatever. The law does not play in SA. They’ll chop your hand of ‘n’ sheit. The welfare state buys everyone off with freebies. I bet property crime is very low in SA for those two reasons. Stuff rarely jumps off over women because they’re all draped in cloth and escorted everywhere by male relatives. There’s a revenge culture, so people are going to get their pound of flesh if you harm them, though this is probably true in Iran as well. As Anatoly pointed out, Iran is more developed, which means more people living in cities, which means more anonymity and more crime.

    Carrot + stick + lower population density and more conservative culture.

    Iran is under sanctions, last I heard.

    The only logical argument against the death penalty

    I don’t trust gov’ts with irreversible punishments like the death penalty. Except maybe in well-documented cases where the evidence is ironclad, but it seems hinky to even trust gov’ts enough to make that decision.

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    • Replies: @Stephen R. Diamond

    I don’t trust gov’ts with irreversible punishments like the death penalty.
     
    That's indeed the key issue.
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  • Saudi Arabia

    Muslim.
    Export fundie Muslim jihadist ideology and terrorism throughout the Muslim world.
    Play havok with the global economy with their oil price shenanigans.
    Human rights eyesore, though this is their business IMO.
    Unstable, ticking time bomb.

    Iran

    Muslim.
    Nuclear Program, though this is their business IMO.
    Saber-rattling.
    Supports Hezbollah.
    Allied with Russia and Syria, though this is their business IMO.

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  • @Escher
    Many maids in Saudi Arabia are in death row for the heinous crime of complaining about being abused and raped by their employers. It has become so bad that Indonesia (Malaysia is prosperous and doesn't send its women overseas to work as domestic help) has banned its citizens from taking up work as maids in Saudi.

    OK, thanks for your input and clarification.

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  • @anonymous
    The state of Illinois did away with capital punishment some years ago because of the scandalous number of wrongful convictions of those who ended up on death row. It got to be just too much, one case after another popping up casting doubt on the entire process. People normally think that someone wouldn't confess to crimes they didn't commit but in fact forcing false confessions out of people is actually a regular occurrence. Prosecutorial corruption is surprisingly high; there's many who would rather execute an innocent person than admit they convicted the wrong one. This is truer than most might think. As one anti-death penalty person who was somewhat conservative put it, there's a lot of people who deserve to be shot but he didn't think the state should be in the business of killing it's citizens. The process too easily becomes corrupted.
    In Saudi Arabia one can be executed for sorcery, among other things. Also, I understand they have a good number of foreign domestic workers waiting to be executed, women from places such as Malaysia convicted on dubious grounds. It seems unlikely those domestic workers would actually be guilty of any heinous crimes. It doesn't appear that they they have any real safeguards but just have some ignorant mullahs deciding that someone should die.

    Many maids in Saudi Arabia are in death row for the heinous crime of complaining about being abused and raped by their employers. It has become so bad that Indonesia (Malaysia is prosperous and doesn’t send its women overseas to work as domestic help) has banned its citizens from taking up work as maids in Saudi.

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    OK, thanks for your input and clarification.
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  • @anonymous
    The state of Illinois did away with capital punishment some years ago because of the scandalous number of wrongful convictions of those who ended up on death row. It got to be just too much, one case after another popping up casting doubt on the entire process. People normally think that someone wouldn't confess to crimes they didn't commit but in fact forcing false confessions out of people is actually a regular occurrence. Prosecutorial corruption is surprisingly high; there's many who would rather execute an innocent person than admit they convicted the wrong one. This is truer than most might think. As one anti-death penalty person who was somewhat conservative put it, there's a lot of people who deserve to be shot but he didn't think the state should be in the business of killing it's citizens. The process too easily becomes corrupted.
    In Saudi Arabia one can be executed for sorcery, among other things. Also, I understand they have a good number of foreign domestic workers waiting to be executed, women from places such as Malaysia convicted on dubious grounds. It seems unlikely those domestic workers would actually be guilty of any heinous crimes. It doesn't appear that they they have any real safeguards but just have some ignorant mullahs deciding that someone should die.

    The State of Illinois effectively abolished Capital Punishment because the Governor at the time wanted to taint the jury pool in his inevitable upcoming corruption trial. This was later officially ratified by a later heavily Democratic legislature and DemocraticGovernor.

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  • […] 3. A. Karlin on Iranian executions. […]

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  • @Stephen R. Diamond
    Any theory about why Saudi crime rates are low?

    It might be because of all the freedoms they enjoy as subjects of the House of Saud reformers. Saudi citizens are probably so enamored of these freedoms that they’re too busy to perpetrate violent acts against their fellow (male) citizens; instead, they reserve violence for their female property and non-believers abroad.

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  • @Glossy
    Saudi Arabia’s homicide rate of 0.8/100,000.

    That's very low. I wonder how trustworthy those figures are.

    Twice as high as Kuwait, same as Poland, German, Spain.

    China, UK & France are at 1.0

    It would be low for the Americas or Africa.
    And nobody is counting victims in Yemen.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

    And then Iran has Heroin, the US crack and guns, Saudi doesn’t even have alcohol.

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  • You’re exactly right, Anatoly. There is surely a moral distinction to be made between executing somebody for doing wrong, and executing them for criticizing the government’s wrongdoing. The death-penalty controversy is, in this case, mostly a red herring. It would still be wrong (at least in my singular world view!) to give someone a life sentence merely for a being a dissenter.

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  • anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The state of Illinois did away with capital punishment some years ago because of the scandalous number of wrongful convictions of those who ended up on death row. It got to be just too much, one case after another popping up casting doubt on the entire process. People normally think that someone wouldn’t confess to crimes they didn’t commit but in fact forcing false confessions out of people is actually a regular occurrence. Prosecutorial corruption is surprisingly high; there’s many who would rather execute an innocent person than admit they convicted the wrong one. This is truer than most might think. As one anti-death penalty person who was somewhat conservative put it, there’s a lot of people who deserve to be shot but he didn’t think the state should be in the business of killing it’s citizens. The process too easily becomes corrupted.
    In Saudi Arabia one can be executed for sorcery, among other things. Also, I understand they have a good number of foreign domestic workers waiting to be executed, women from places such as Malaysia convicted on dubious grounds. It seems unlikely those domestic workers would actually be guilty of any heinous crimes. It doesn’t appear that they they have any real safeguards but just have some ignorant mullahs deciding that someone should die.

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    • Replies: @Hibernian
    The State of Illinois effectively abolished Capital Punishment because the Governor at the time wanted to taint the jury pool in his inevitable upcoming corruption trial. This was later officially ratified by a later heavily Democratic legislature and DemocraticGovernor.
    , @Escher
    Many maids in Saudi Arabia are in death row for the heinous crime of complaining about being abused and raped by their employers. It has become so bad that Indonesia (Malaysia is prosperous and doesn't send its women overseas to work as domestic help) has banned its citizens from taking up work as maids in Saudi.
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  • ” Ipse facto, as states that both proscribe the death penalty for murder, Iran will have many more executions just on that account, by an order of magnitude or so.”

    Two nitpicking points. First, I believe you meant to say “prescribe,” not “proscribe.” Otherwise, the sentence makes no sense at all. Secondly, I believe the Latin phrase is “ipso facto.”

    AK: Thanks for lending me your eagle eye!

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  • Saudi crime is lower obviously because it’s the standard of living is far higher for most of it’s subjects.
    Unlike SA, Iran borders 3 failed states (Saudi border with Iraq is harsh impermeable desert, also SA funds ISIS anyways), was devastated by a 9 year war and has been an international pariah for 3 generations now. Not comparable.

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  • Why do you care so much about Assad?

    Just nuke the whole middle east or build a 6 kilometer wall around Europe to protect the hawayt race.

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  • @Anonymous
    http://i100.independent.co.uk/image/24343-11bmfxd.jpg

    It always struck me as kind of silly that execution numbers are not compared as a percentage of population.

    But something else I never seemed to understand is why the death penalty is unacceptable to many liberals. The only logical argument against the death penalty that I can accept is when a country has a terrible and corrupt legal system that potentially sends many innocent people to death. An example of this is that many prisoners in China were executed because of various black market organ dealings made by the police. I don't know how the Chinese legal system is today but this kind of thing was probably quite common 20 years ago.

    But lets say we have a state with very low corruption and a mature legal system. Singapore does come to mind. Why is it unacceptable for executions to be carried out then? Most Asians would probably also support keeping the death penalty if they did have an uncorrupt and mature legal system. Liberal hatred of executions is something I never quite understood.

    But something else I never seemed to understand is why the death penalty is unacceptable to many liberals.

    The answer lies in your comment itself. To many liberals, executing one innocent person is one too many. So why take the chance? Lifetime imprisonment at least offers the chance for a reprieve. And it’s impossible to devise a completely foolproof and incorruptible legal system; America doesn’t have that, Western European countries don’t have that, though they are miles better than the rest of the world.

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  • @Glossy
    Saudi Arabia has a non-trivial number of blacks and mulattoes. I don't know their society. Maybe they're all so sincerely religious that they hardly commit any crime. Or maybe the numbers were cooked.

    if Lynn’s numbers are to be believed their IQ is about 79.

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    • Replies: @Bliss

    if Lynn’s numbers are to be believed their IQ is about 79.

     

    According to Lynn the IQ of Saudi Arabia is 80, the IQ of Syria is 79 and the IQ of Mauritius is 89:

    http://www.ttu.ee/public/m/mart-murdvee/EconPsy/2/Lynn_Meisenberg_2010_National_IQs_calculated_and_validated_for_108_nations.pdf


    This is the opposite of what the HBD narrative claims is "race realism", Mauritius being 25% african and 68% indian (overwhelmingly low caste). While Syrians (and lebanese) are the whitest of the MENAs.
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  • @Glossy
    Saudi Arabia’s homicide rate of 0.8/100,000.

    That's very low. I wonder how trustworthy those figures are.

    no reason to doubt.

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  • Saudi Arabia has a non-trivial number of blacks and mulattoes. I don’t know their society. Maybe they’re all so sincerely religious that they hardly commit any crime. Or maybe the numbers were cooked.

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    • Replies: @wolfy
    if Lynn's numbers are to be believed their IQ is about 79.
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  • @Stephen R. Diamond
    Any theory about why Saudi crime rates are low?

    Not any particularly strong ones. I’m not an area expert.

    One hypothesis – socially, Iran is more modern and industrialized than Saudi Arabia, so perhaps fewer of the traditional social structures that curb crime have survived.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    It always struck me as kind of silly that execution numbers are not compared as a percentage of population.

    But something else I never seemed to understand is why the death penalty is unacceptable to many liberals. The only logical argument against the death penalty that I can accept is when a country has a terrible and corrupt legal system that potentially sends many innocent people to death. An example of this is that many prisoners in China were executed because of various black market organ dealings made by the police. I don’t know how the Chinese legal system is today but this kind of thing was probably quite common 20 years ago.

    But lets say we have a state with very low corruption and a mature legal system. Singapore does come to mind. Why is it unacceptable for executions to be carried out then? Most Asians would probably also support keeping the death penalty if they did have an uncorrupt and mature legal system. Liberal hatred of executions is something I never quite understood.

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    • Replies: @Numinous

    But something else I never seemed to understand is why the death penalty is unacceptable to many liberals.
     
    The answer lies in your comment itself. To many liberals, executing one innocent person is one too many. So why take the chance? Lifetime imprisonment at least offers the chance for a reprieve. And it's impossible to devise a completely foolproof and incorruptible legal system; America doesn't have that, Western European countries don't have that, though they are miles better than the rest of the world.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Any theory about why Saudi crime rates are low?

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Not any particularly strong ones. I'm not an area expert.

    One hypothesis - socially, Iran is more modern and industrialized than Saudi Arabia, so perhaps fewer of the traditional social structures that curb crime have survived.
    , @James Miller
    It might be because of all the freedoms they enjoy as subjects of the House of Saud reformers. Saudi citizens are probably so enamored of these freedoms that they're too busy to perpetrate violent acts against their fellow (male) citizens; instead, they reserve violence for their female property and non-believers abroad.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Saudi Arabia’s homicide rate of 0.8/100,000.

    That’s very low. I wonder how trustworthy those figures are.

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    • Replies: @wolfy
    no reason to doubt.
    , @Michael D
    Twice as high as Kuwait, same as Poland, German, Spain.


    China, UK & France are at 1.0

    It would be low for the Americas or Africa.
    And nobody is counting victims in Yemen.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

    And then Iran has Heroin, the US crack and guns, Saudi doesn't even have alcohol.

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  • The Saudis have made themselves even more unpopular after decapitating or shooting 47 prisoners last week. Critics are calling them, “the white ISIS.” The men, Sunni and Shia, had been convicted of “terrorism,” belonging to al-Qaida, drug offenses, or membership in proscribed Shia groups. All but two of them were Saudi citizens. Most prominent among...
  • @masmanz
    Chechens have been fighting the Russians for independence for centuries. Give them independence and let them build their own mosques.

    A couple of things: I am not Russian; and with very rare exceptions, as a rule my sympathies are with indigenous peoples. Chechens are indigenous people of Caucasus.

    However, let me ask you: if Chechens are/were only concerned about their independence, why is it that several hundred experienced, tough Chechen fighters volunteered and went to fight against the independence of another people who too were fighting for their own independence.
    Chechens fought on the side of a state that was trying to wipe out the indigenous people of that particular region. And the people of that particular region against whom Chechen volunteers were fighting had never done any harm to Chechnya or to Chechen people.

    Yet hundreds of Chechen volunteers invaded the homeland of those people with the goal of crushing their struggle for their own independence.

    What say you ?

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  • @Avery
    {Muslim independence fighters in southern Russia are routinely gunned down without any legal due process.}

    Islamophile Mr. Margolis strikes again.

    Those gunned down are not independence fighters.
    They are terrorists: before the world knew about ISIS, these Islamist terrorists were terrorizing southern Russia.
    Have you heard of Beslan school siege ? Shamil Basaev later took credit for the murder of the 180 or so children. Any legal due process when children are murdered by your Muslim buddies? What "freedom fighters" are you talking about ?

    Moscow financed and built one of the largest mosques in region in Grozny, Chechnya. Chechens run Chechnya and Chechen security forces are the ones who are hunting down Islamist terrorists.

    While Christians (Moscow) build mosques for your Muslim kin, Churches are being destroyed and Christians are being ethnically cleansed by your Islamist buddies.
    No due process there of course: as long as your Muslim kin murder Christians, there is no due process required.

    Pretty soon you'll start referring to ISIS as "freedom fighters".

    Chechens have been fighting the Russians for independence for centuries. Give them independence and let them build their own mosques.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    A couple of things: I am not Russian; and with very rare exceptions, as a rule my sympathies are with indigenous peoples. Chechens are indigenous people of Caucasus.

    However, let me ask you: if Chechens are/were only concerned about their independence, why is it that several hundred experienced, tough Chechen fighters volunteered and went to fight against the independence of another people who too were fighting for their own independence.
    Chechens fought on the side of a state that was trying to wipe out the indigenous people of that particular region. And the people of that particular region against whom Chechen volunteers were fighting had never done any harm to Chechnya or to Chechen people.

    Yet hundreds of Chechen volunteers invaded the homeland of those people with the goal of crushing their struggle for their own independence.

    What say you ?

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @balderdash
    The writer seems to be incorrect when he claims that Saddam Hussein was decapitated at his hanging. Doctors who examined him claimed that his neck was broken, as intended by the drop. Friends who buried him denied he had been stabbed six times (also claimed) and stated that his body 'was intact' and unmarked. Had he been in more than one piece someone would have noted it.

    Perhaps the writer could reference his sources for the claim of a botched hanging in Saddam's case.

    Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti , a cousin of Saddam Hussein was also hanged by the ‘democratic’ government of Iraq. In his case his head was separated from his body during the execution.

    Eric generally gets his facts quite straight, but this is an emotional issue, perhaps?

    Shriners certainly do that to me.

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  • The writer seems to be incorrect when he claims that Saddam Hussein was decapitated at his hanging. Doctors who examined him claimed that his neck was broken, as intended by the drop. Friends who buried him denied he had been stabbed six times (also claimed) and stated that his body ‘was intact’ and unmarked. Had he been in more than one piece someone would have noted it.

    Perhaps the writer could reference his sources for the claim of a botched hanging in Saddam’s case.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti , a cousin of Saddam Hussein was also hanged by the 'democratic' government of Iraq. In his case his head was separated from his body during the execution.

    Eric generally gets his facts quite straight, but this is an emotional issue, perhaps?

    Shriners certainly do that to me.
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  • Hey Eric, I owe you an apology, gave you a hard time a while back. Didn’t know you were a Righteous Jew, but I recently saw your piece (in Toronto Sun?) about the Holodomor. Kudos.

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  • {Muslim independence fighters in southern Russia are routinely gunned down without any legal due process.}

    Islamophile Mr. Margolis strikes again.

    Those gunned down are not independence fighters.
    They are terrorists: before the world knew about ISIS, these Islamist terrorists were terrorizing southern Russia.
    Have you heard of Beslan school siege ? Shamil Basaev later took credit for the murder of the 180 or so children. Any legal due process when children are murdered by your Muslim buddies? What “freedom fighters” are you talking about ?

    Moscow financed and built one of the largest mosques in region in Grozny, Chechnya. Chechens run Chechnya and Chechen security forces are the ones who are hunting down Islamist terrorists.

    While Christians (Moscow) build mosques for your Muslim kin, Churches are being destroyed and Christians are being ethnically cleansed by your Islamist buddies.
    No due process there of course: as long as your Muslim kin murder Christians, there is no due process required.

    Pretty soon you’ll start referring to ISIS as “freedom fighters”.

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    • Replies: @masmanz
    Chechens have been fighting the Russians for independence for centuries. Give them independence and let them build their own mosques.
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  • Just last week a 20 year old school white girl was head shot by 6 black thugs

    By SIX black ‘thugs’? Only one had shot her but why are you blaming six?

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  • “Muslim independence fighters in southern Russia are routinely gunned down without any legal due process”
    Hit job by Eric on Muslims.Dear Eric, have you read up on how many American citizens have been gunned down by police.Just last week a 20 year old school white girl was head shot by 6 black thugs–but the media and Eric are silent.
    Eric–read up on WACO slaughter and your types who killed over 3000 Americans and theircover up on Sept 11== before you bad mouth Russians

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  • It’s enough to make you wonder how Germans came up with such a foolproof method of gassing several thousands in one location on an hourly basis. But then, there were millions of survivors, so who knows.

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  • “China is the world’s leader in executions. ”

    Not on a per capita basis.

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  • @Anonymous
    regarding "Germany also used it during World War II", death by guillotine was the customary method of execution in Germany during the Weimar Republic, earlier it may have varied with the part of the county, regarding "When Saddam Hussein was lynched in Iraq, his head was ripped off his body" see Wikipedia Execution_of_Saddam_Hussein, Sadam Hussein was not decapitated, it was one of his co-defendants, Barzan who was decapitated by the rope due to the wrong measurements.

    Saddam’s final words (translated into English) are well worth a read. We’ve been lied to peeps, again.

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  • What was that old one about people judging you by the company you keep? That the USA, the land of the free and the home of the brave, even has formal diplomatic relations with this vile nation run on slavery by a monarchistic, international crime family is an insult to everything Americans celebrate on 4th July and the great sacrifices made.

    In order for America to become great again it must first become good again. Quickly, before the neocons use America’s arsenal to commit crimes of a magnitude that future generations would likely see Hitler as lacking both vision and commitment in pursuit of evil by comparison. The stain would be indelible.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    regarding “Germany also used it during World War II”, death by guillotine was the customary method of execution in Germany during the Weimar Republic, earlier it may have varied with the part of the county, regarding “When Saddam Hussein was lynched in Iraq, his head was ripped off his body” see Wikipedia Execution_of_Saddam_Hussein, Sadam Hussein was not decapitated, it was one of his co-defendants, Barzan who was decapitated by the rope due to the wrong measurements.

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    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    Saddam's final words (translated into English) are well worth a read. We've been lied to peeps, again.
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  • Saudi Arabia will go back to being a flea-bitten hellhole once humanity weans itself off petroleum.

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  • One day we’ll read about the beheading of a Saudi king. Probably sooner rather than later.

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  • It seems Eric Margolis has lost courage to stand-up against the Organized Jewry that got him fired from Canadian newspaper The Sun over a decade ago.

    Margolis executions claim against Iran and Pakistan is ridiculous. Iran since 1979 Islamic Revolution have pardoned several American, British, Canadian and Mossad-trained Jewish spies, who had been executed in Hong Kong or North Korea, if caught doing the same dirty work.

    In Iran the death penalty is only for pre-meditated murdered and drug-trafficking that even has been praised by United Nations. Pakistan just brought-in death penalty after RAW-MOSSAD agents murdered 137 students at Peshawar military school last year. There are more people waiting on death row in United States than Iran, Pakistan, Egypt, Iraq, and Singapore put together.

    I’m sure Margolis knows that Saudi ‘royals’ have Jewish family roots and during 2012-2014 they gave Israel $16 billion in aid.

    American freelance journalist and writer from Denver, Colorado (USA) Yuram Abdullah Weiler in an interview with the Tehran Times said: “The current anti-Muslim hysteria in the western world provides an ideal backdrop for the Saudis to make a massive public beheading of state proclaimed “terrorists”, which was the largest public beheading since the mass execution in 1980 of 63 radicals involved in the take-over of the Grand Mosque in Makkah. One of the three charges against those slaughtered was “planning to damage the nation’s economy and harm the Kingdom’s status, its relations and interests with brotherly and friendly countries by; storming the “US consulate”. So we see the Saudi officials felt that Sheikh Nimr was a threat to its relations with it benefactor, “the brotherly and friendly” United States, where 30 people were shot and killed on New Year’s Day and another 74 wounded“.

    http://rehmat1.com/2016/01/04/riyadh-severs-diplomatic-ties-with-tehran/

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  • so what else should the world expect from the new head of the UN human rights commission???

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  • Why give such short shrift to the gas chamber? Carbon dioxide is 100% effective and painless, the intended simpy falls asleep. No drugs to acquire.

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  • The people killed were subjects, not citizens.
    Killing subjects is morally the same as killing cattle or sheep for food, you can do it kosher or halal or efficiently roboticized or as bungle-fingered as Forrest Gump … subjects be subject to the whims of their owners. The opinions of currently non-subjects in other temporary geographic polities are irrelevant.

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  • This might be a brilliant move by the Saudis. Could these actions some how force the hands of the Obama administration to renege on the nuclear deal. You know this shit ain’t gonna end well.

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  • Nebraska’s legislature recently made headlines when it ended the state’s death penalty. Many found it odd that a conservatives-dominated legislature would support ending capital punishment, since conservative politicians have traditionally supported the death penalty. However, an increasing number of conservatives are realizing that the death penalty is inconsistent with both fiscal and social conservatism. These...
  • @The Anti-Gnostic
    And the guards, and their two-ways, security cameras and tactical gear? And the walls and razor wire to protect both us and them? And maintenance of the facility? Medical care for the prisoners? This is the real world, not your libertarian thought-experiment.

    The world is a mess for the very reason that the government is running the world. Psychopaths and control freaks are hardly beneficial to society.

    The solution for all of the bad people in society is to permanently isolate them from the good people. There are 7+ billion people on earth, bad people aren’t good for anything except making civilized people’s lives miserable. They are needed like cancer is needed.

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  • @commenter
    Replying to Anti-Gnostic and MarkinLA: while the labor of many people is worth little, to keep people alive and reasonably healthy should cost little as well. There's no reason for prisons to cost 35k per person. With 2 dollars a day and in fact even less you can provide a nutritionally complete diet.

    And the guards, and their two-ways, security cameras and tactical gear? And the walls and razor wire to protect both us and them? And maintenance of the facility? Medical care for the prisoners? This is the real world, not your libertarian thought-experiment.

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    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
    The world is a mess for the very reason that the government is running the world. Psychopaths and control freaks are hardly beneficial to society.

    The solution for all of the bad people in society is to permanently isolate them from the good people. There are 7+ billion people on earth, bad people aren't good for anything except making civilized people's lives miserable. They are needed like cancer is needed.
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  • @commenter
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/oct/05/prisoners-cheap-labour-public-services

    I don’t think the British have our prison gang problem.

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  • @MarkinLA
    The problem is that most of them can't do anything useful. Even if you give them a sledge hammer and have them break rocks all day long, a 5 horsepower Briggs and Stratton engine and a couple of gallons of gas can break more rocks than the entire crew of inmates.
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    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    I don't think the British have our prison gang problem.
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  • @The Anti-Gnostic
    People get old and sick, or they get injured. Or they just refuse to work and otherwise can't produce enough to cover the costs of their incarceration.

    If you can find a spot on earth somewhere that would qualify as a penal colony, that might be a viable alternative.

    Replying to Anti-Gnostic and MarkinLA: while the labor of many people is worth little, to keep people alive and reasonably healthy should cost little as well. There’s no reason for prisons to cost 35k per person. With 2 dollars a day and in fact even less you can provide a nutritionally complete diet.

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    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    And the guards, and their two-ways, security cameras and tactical gear? And the walls and razor wire to protect both us and them? And maintenance of the facility? Medical care for the prisoners? This is the real world, not your libertarian thought-experiment.
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  • @commenter
    You forget indentured servitude, public shaming, and exile.

    I don't know if it's libertarian, but rather than something as barbaric as death penalty or as expensive as prison, I support chaining murderers at the workplace; hit them hard if they don't work and produce to the reasonable best of their possibilities. Something along those lines. Prison doesn't need to be expensive to society.

    The problem is that most of them can’t do anything useful. Even if you give them a sledge hammer and have them break rocks all day long, a 5 horsepower Briggs and Stratton engine and a couple of gallons of gas can break more rocks than the entire crew of inmates.

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    • Replies: @commenter
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/oct/05/prisoners-cheap-labour-public-services
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  • @commenter
    You forget indentured servitude, public shaming, and exile.

    I don't know if it's libertarian, but rather than something as barbaric as death penalty or as expensive as prison, I support chaining murderers at the workplace; hit them hard if they don't work and produce to the reasonable best of their possibilities. Something along those lines. Prison doesn't need to be expensive to society.

    People get old and sick, or they get injured. Or they just refuse to work and otherwise can’t produce enough to cover the costs of their incarceration.

    If you can find a spot on earth somewhere that would qualify as a penal colony, that might be a viable alternative.

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    • Replies: @commenter
    Replying to Anti-Gnostic and MarkinLA: while the labor of many people is worth little, to keep people alive and reasonably healthy should cost little as well. There's no reason for prisons to cost 35k per person. With 2 dollars a day and in fact even less you can provide a nutritionally complete diet.
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  • What’s that line from the movie – “Some people just need killing”.

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  • @The Anti-Gnostic
    In a libertarian society, all punishment would be corporal, capital or financial. Nobody would pay the $35K/yr required to keep prisoners alive behind walls and safe from their victims' families.

    You forget indentured servitude, public shaming, and exile.

    I don’t know if it’s libertarian, but rather than something as barbaric as death penalty or as expensive as prison, I support chaining murderers at the workplace; hit them hard if they don’t work and produce to the reasonable best of their possibilities. Something along those lines. Prison doesn’t need to be expensive to society.

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    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    People get old and sick, or they get injured. Or they just refuse to work and otherwise can't produce enough to cover the costs of their incarceration.

    If you can find a spot on earth somewhere that would qualify as a penal colony, that might be a viable alternative.
    , @MarkinLA
    The problem is that most of them can't do anything useful. Even if you give them a sledge hammer and have them break rocks all day long, a 5 horsepower Briggs and Stratton engine and a couple of gallons of gas can break more rocks than the entire crew of inmates.
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  • @Fran Macadam
    Ron shares my same libertarian philosophy. And as he proves, it's the most practical of all.

    In a libertarian society, all punishment would be corporal, capital or financial. Nobody would pay the $35K/yr required to keep prisoners alive behind walls and safe from their victims’ families.

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    • Replies: @commenter
    You forget indentured servitude, public shaming, and exile.

    I don't know if it's libertarian, but rather than something as barbaric as death penalty or as expensive as prison, I support chaining murderers at the workplace; hit them hard if they don't work and produce to the reasonable best of their possibilities. Something along those lines. Prison doesn't need to be expensive to society.

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  • HERE IS THE PROOF THAT 100 WHITE WOMEN ARE RAPED BY BLACK MEN–EVERY DAY.

    http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=26368

    Dear white readers, please send this link to all women in your family and friends circle, especially those who are liberal and feel okay to associate with blacks, to make them more aware of the dangers of going to parties and other places with black men, who can, sadly, suddenly attack and rape them.

    No matter how educated they are, or if they are wearing suits, black men have only one thing on their mind–how to trap a white woman, put some drugs in her drink and rape her. I know this from factual sources besides the above article.

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  • DEATH PENALTY SHOULD BE EXPANDED.

    Sir, I am sorry, though I often agree with you generally, I disagree on this one.

    There are violent criminals in society who kill people and the ONLY moral and ethical thing to do is to kill them in return. It is not fair to the victim if these killers are allowed to live. The pain of knowing that the killer is still alive is too much for their loved ones.

    If there are errors and some people are occasionally wrongly convicted, we need to fix these errors. There is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    I think the death penalty should be expanded.

    For example, there is an epidemic of sexual assault, especially black on white rape and there is an epidemic of human trafficking. Both of these are heinous crimes that deserve the death penalty, for the greater good of society and to send a message to those who think of these heinous crimes.

    For example, rapists who rape women (using physical violence, drugs or weapon) should be given life or the death penalty. Many black men cannot control themselves and rape white women, knowing that all they will get is a slap in the wrist. They do not mind spending a few years in jail. But if it carried the death penalty, they will think twice.

    Many black criminals do not care about jail, but their criminal behavior can only be stopped with the death penalty.

    Also, bringing aliens into Europe or USA, like the captains of boats and ships are doing in Europe, should be made a capital offense, subject to summary execution by the military or a naval or a border patrol officer, because of the enormity of the crime. Once these boat/ship/truck/bus captains know they will be arrested and tried and executed summarily for human trafficking, it will stop!

    We need more death penalty for the so much crime that we see, not less.

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  • Sex is to marriage as justice is to the law. If a man is expected to be faithful to his vow, sex better be a part of marriage. If a man is to subordinate his natural right to see vengeance for a wrong done, he will expect the death penalty to be on the menu of possible punishments. Screw deterrence. I want the murderer of my loved one to die and if I have no prospect of seeing that happen, I’ll take matters into my own hands.

    And this is crap: “DNA evidence is available in only five to 10 percent of criminal cases.” We’re not talking about all criminal cases. We’re talking murder.

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  • Ron shares my same libertarian philosophy. And as he proves, it’s the most practical of all.

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    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    In a libertarian society, all punishment would be corporal, capital or financial. Nobody would pay the $35K/yr required to keep prisoners alive behind walls and safe from their victims' families.
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  • @Matra
    Libertardians like Ron Paul and his sperging fanboys will always side with the interests of murderers (especially when they are non-white as they so often are) against the interests of their victims of all races.

    I actually prefer to permanently kick all violent types out of society, but that is as unlikely as making government voluntary, or getting rid of it entirely.

    I want you to live by your political beliefs and at the same time, they would have absolutely nothing to do with my life.

    You know, real freedom from slavery.

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  • Libertardians like Ron Paul and his sperging fanboys will always side with the interests of murderers (especially when they are non-white as they so often are) against the interests of their victims of all races.

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    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
    I actually prefer to permanently kick all violent types out of society, but that is as unlikely as making government voluntary, or getting rid of it entirely.

    I want you to live by your political beliefs and at the same time, they would have absolutely nothing to do with my life.

    You know, real freedom from slavery.
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  • Lawyer food, nothing but Lawyer food. The whole justice system not just the death penalty cases. They hire very expensive Lawyers to write laws full of loop holes that keep very expensive Lawyers sucking on the Government Tit. It’s like a money wheel!

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  • As with the donor option on your driver’s license, allow a person to select the sentencing for whomever takes their life. The truth is, it’s nobody else’s business.

    Have the trial to determine guilt.

    If found guilty, read the sentence the victim had stated.

    Carry out the sentence.

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  • The death penalty is a just punishment for those who have committed murder and opposition to it is Utopianism at its worst. Here in NY State we have two murderers on the loose who escaped even though sentenced to life, how many more will they kill so dreamers can feel good about themselves? The noise we hear about recent DNA cases are, at least in the cases I’ve reviewed, not proof of innocence, but poor evidence collection and evidence lost many years after sentencing. In all the cases I’ve reviewed, the released prisoners appeared to be guilty of the crimes for which they were convicted.

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  • Hanged, drawn, and quartered. (source) Although the Middle Ages were, in the imagination of our contemporaries, “the time of the gallows,” the reality was appreciably different (Carbasse, 2011, pp. 38-39) Like many well-meaning people, I once considered the death penalty a relic of a more barbaric age. Outside the old jailhouse, here in Quebec City,...
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    During the 11th Century the Europeans picked up on some of the Islamic norms while 'visiting' the Holy Land.

    Mo's dicta stipulated State Action against many crimes.

    The idea of the Big Man dishing out the punishment — as the hand of God — gained traction.

    How else to explain the amazing timing of such a huge shift in tribal norms.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Sean
    "Not how it happens Anon"

    All over the western world the media downplays or completely censors white victims of racial attacks while doing the opposite for non-white victims of racial attacks.

    The media have to constantly lie because they know that the moral algebra *requires* them to weight the scales down very firmly on the side of non-white victimization.

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  • Not how it happens Anon, "Griffin exploited the scandals for his own thuggish purposes. Sometimes, amidst the bleakness, it is important to acknowledge that a few people did the right thing. In the hideous example of the Oxford gang rape case, …one of those people is a Muslim prosecutor"

    Do you see? Whatever the story it doesn't invalidate anti racist iconography because whites, without a legitimate grievance, can't be anything but vicious and base when they talk about white victimisation even if what they say is true. The Muslim is heroic; when he does bad thing it's due to lack of inclusion. To the extent these cases disconcert the elite, it will just add fuel to the fire.

    Reconceptualise, anon. People have an instinct to go along with the received wisdom in their community; those who are the most imbued with received wisdom are the knowledge class. It's white people who are doing this, and they're unconsciously motivated by feelings triggered by simple heuristics like: obey authority figures , imitate those who get on in life, go along with peers. All that interacts with the foundations Haidt talks about,

    The HBD fundamentals approach is just as bad, because it emphasises inclusive fitness aspects of human nature–though the degree of inbreeding–that we share with animals, and even ants whose complex social behaviour is certainly due to simple heuristics. At the level of a tribe even, inclusive fitness has little effect; it's only powerful for immediate family. For politics symbolic community feeling is decisive. People don't support football teams because they are related to the players.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Sean
    "Humans have a conceptual limitation that makes one sidedly feel there is something wrong with trade-offs of consequences in cases where moral questions are concerned."

    No they don't.

    It's precisely because they don't that the anti-white culture has to fanatically censor the existence of white victims and why effectively publicizing white victims changes the moral algebra.

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  • BBC on Jean-François Copé ("He has also made comments about the French Muslim community, which have led to accusations that he is threatening cultural harmony. Is he in danger of consigning his party to the political dustbin at home and on the world stage?") See here, start at 8 minutes. He has said that anti-white racism is a problem and that white people are suffering. The interviewer skewers him with the point that ethnic minorities still disproportionately make up the unemployed; apparently suggesting racism (the racism of whites obviously) is the only real problem.

    Humans have a conceptual limitation that makes one sidedly feel there is something wrong with trade-offs of consequences in cases where moral questions are concerned. The effect of this implicit norm produces a 'Kantian' outlook. Hence the hijacked airliner can't be shot down. Something is indeed going on in France, but it is the skeptical tradition of Pascal's Wager, a caveat that other considerations than one sided first principles are being proposed to be contribute to the balance struck when integrating immigrants. No revolutionary change of outlook is being proposed, but just a correction to balance the country as it moves toward interracial nirvana.

    It simply is not possible to get most people (any that matter) to understand that, while the old racism cannot be tolerated, anti white racism is enough of a problem that it should even be talked about. Our genetically programmed rule of thumb says that is just the wrong way to look at things and the person who says otherwise is creating the whole of the problem. Hitchens blames Powell for the level of immigration , everyone that matters does too. The BNP's Griffin revealing what was happening to young white girls meant the issue was ignored, according to this. (It had been going on for decades when Griffin mentioned it.) The German attitude to environmentalism shows the one sided moral intuition with dismissive attitude to the real world. See here.

    Yes, the elite could change its attitude to racism, but it would have to be a revolutionary change junking their previous thoughts on what the societal duty is, whereby a minor adjustment will not be possible.

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  • Whoops, the above post was me.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Peter:

    I'd recommend that book to anyone, but it's a sociology book, so it's basically a diamond in a sea of mud. It was also written quite a few decades ago (in 1939, ironically) and is little-noticed in the US, as Pinker notes. Therefore, I think Pinker's introduction in Better Angels is the best thing to read first, since he expands the original concept to discuss developing countries and the rise in interpersonal violence in the 1960's, which are not discussed in Elias' original book. He also goes over the concept of informalization and how it interacts with the civilizing process.

    Incidentally, a new translatoin of The Civilizing Process was recently released (the title is now closer to the original German, On the Process of Civilization. It'd be great if Razib Khan, HBD chick, and other bloggers like yourself read it!

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  • "So violent men were gradually pushed to the margins of society and denied opportunities for social advancement."

    Except in culturally approved niches.

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  • JayMan,

    Thanks!

    Sean,

    Elites can change their minds. The problem is that it takes a high degree of disillusionment to change most people's minds. I may be wrong, but recent events have perhaps pushed a lot of people beyond the point of irreversible disillusionment. There may be a window of opportunity for HBDers to step forward and make their case.

    Ben,

    In the Middle Ages, most cases of murder went unsolved. People were generally executed for things like highway robbery or horse theft. But it's difficult to do either without engaging in unlawful violence.

    The same goes for U.S. prisons. Many Americans officially go to prison for unlawful possession of drugs, but unofficially they're imprisoned for other offenses that are more serious but harder to prove in court (largely because the relevant witnesses refuse to testify).

    Brel,

    I'll have to check that book out. The pacification of social relations was a very extensive process that went far beyond the death penalty. Violence became uncouth and a mark of low social status. So violent men were gradually pushed to the margins of society and denied opportunities for social advancement.

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  • Ben10, you're going with Blackstone's formulation, a Kantian idea. The Germans passed a law that outlawing killing innocent people to save a greater number of innocent people.

    The early Romans were merciless with themselves and other peoples. Practical, they exterminated whole tribes thought to be unreliable. A few hundred years later, the Roman leadership just couldn't think that way, or even bring themselves to believe that barbarians would not behave like citizens–once they were admitted to the empire.

    The ideologies that use moral ('rational') reasoning divorced from the practical consequences are the result of advanced pacification. Five centuries of selection for getting on in civil society, with awkward customers being continuously winnowed out, produces an inevitable side effect.

    In Britain the first signs could be seen in the influence of Jeremy Bentham.

    Correlli Barnett says the influence of moral imperative and Christian piety, a motif of moral fervour in government, derives from from early nineteenth century thinkers like John Stuart Mill, Matthew Arnold (Victorian headmaster) Ruskin propagandising for a Christian, intellectual elite that would pursue moral 'duty' in international relations. A " moral revolution of the early 19th century gradually divorced the governing class from realpolitik and immersed them in a dream world of philanthropy and humanitarianism."

    There was no real change when, by the 50's, Western intellectuals were almost totally Marxist in inspiration. Now the modern leadership class are viscerally naive flower people. Germans are only slightly further down that road than the rest of the West The German Ecological-Industrial Complex.

    Pascal Bruckner says that the ecological movement has replaced Christianity and Marxism. It's an underlying hereditary predisposition to transcend conflicts of interest that is the taproot of this kind of thinking.

    Gangland Britain the police have to be as black as the people they arrest, according to the Economist. (Not many blacks will be writing for the Economist, but then inclusive fitness mandates affluent liberals putting their kids in those good jobs).

    Given a self replicating current British knowledge class, with a mindset mandating a global symbolic community that puts harmony above all things, we would need to import foreigners to run the country before we could have different policies.

    Some say modern Russia isn't run like that–the communists killed the old elite off. Before that happened, de Maistre had went to Russia to get away from revolutionary ideas and found the St Petersburg elite were entranced by fashionable French ideology. Unfortunately the ruling class are going to be the last to be displaced in the West

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  • This phenomenon is discussed in Norbert Elias' book The Civilizing Process, which Steven Pinker talked about extensively in Chapter 3 of his Better Angels. Elias chronicled the transition of knights, who had nearly absolute power over their lands and didn't have to answer to anyone, into courtiers who had to learn to restrain themselves and work for the king. In order to do this they had to curb their violent ways and learn "courtesy", which is where modern day manners (such as the use of forks and blunt knives) come from. These habits spread from the courtly class to the bourgeoisie and then to the general population over several centuries, coinciding with the rise of capital punishment and the decline in interpersonal violence.

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  • The problem has always been that in most cases, crimes are commited without directly being witnessed, and in these old times, 'material evidences' was more like circumstancial conjectures. I bet there was a lot of "I say, he says, my words against yours'.
    So like in Texas, there has been too many imprisonned people, usually black, that have been later cleared by DNA analysis. On this basis, it's more likely than not that innocent people have been executed in texas.
    I've always been in favor of the death penalty but too many botched cases, fake witnesses or witnesses who genuily believe what they say while they are in fact autosuggested, makes me believe that 'Life' would be better, just in case.

    That is not the reason why the franks did not implement the death penalty in the salic law. The reason was more likely their feelings towards 'death'. High natural mortality + continual wars probably didn't make the frankish men very confident to long life expectencies. Clovis killing so many of his relatives, while himself dying at 45, show the franks considered death and crime a natural almost casual things to do.

    By the way Peter, if your are looking at example of sexual selection in societies with excess numbers of women, the early dark ages of 400-1000 (starting basically with the barbarian invasions) should be a great time for that. Later on, the black plagues killed more evenly Men and women, but during the barbarian invasions it was really men against men, and for the victorious the reward was trophy women in the conquered lands.

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  • Sean says:

    It seems the former captures the reality, and that capital punishment was responsible for altering the balance so that nice people became the vast majority. Unfortunately, the uber-pacified elite will always prefer to think that human nature hasn't changed since modern humans first entered Europe. That lets them think they're more rational than other people, due to their adherence to their ethics–though babies already have the basic ideas that are supposed to come from social learning.
    "GAZZANIGA14:52
    What are some of the stuff that's in it from the factory as it were, right? And very clever developmental psychologists are nailing that down and showing all the stuff that comes with this structured brain that grows. And to give you just a quick example, the developmental psychologists are so clever that they drive me crazy because they do their science with such cheap instruments like little baby toys hitting each other in front of another baby, you know, oh, they're outrageously clever people.
    GAZZANIGA11:15:32
    But anyway, so you have a baby sitting there and you then have two little puppets and one takes a cookie from the other, right? Just A takes a cookie from B. And then a few seconds later, B takes the cookie back, right? Now, there's — now, does the baby notice this? The baby is totally bored by that because it's just natural that if A steals from B, B's gonna steal back. So reciprocity, retribution, it's all right there at the beginning.
    GAZZANIGA11:16:07
    And if you then do another little trick, my favorite is — and these are the studies of Renee Baillargeon at the University of Illinois and David Premack. If you do another where A goes over and helps B — or hinders B, let me — it's easier to describe it. A goes over and gets in B's way, and B actually was sitting here with C. B had a buddy, C. Now, so A goes and hinders B and then goes back home. The next act is C comes over and actually helps A, right?
    REHM11:16:41
    Huh. Huh.
    GAZZANIGA11:16:43
    Well, the baby is shocked at this, because the groups have already formed and A is, you know, has got nothing — should have nothing to do with B or C because they're in this out group here. So anyway, this is all going on at 13 months. The babies have this all sorted out. So, you realize that with these primitives — and these are social decisions making, and with these primitives and with all the mental primitives that have been shown using these very simple tricks, we come with a lot of stuff, complex — complexities built in."

    Gazzaniga says half our brain is for coming up with rationales for what we unconsciously feel. Hence the inner chatter of the chattering classes means that those who appear to see good as having come from capital punishment (as de Maistre did) are viewed as inhumane and deluded.

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  • Sean says:

    In a period of weak overarching authority, where killing was not regarded as murder according to the social norms, it was common.

    Once homicide in almost any circumstances was seen as killing 'murderously' the society was able to reduce it to a hundredth of what it had been.

    None of this will convince doubters that the reduction in violence was due to the average hereditary disposition changing. It'll just be asserted, as Stephen Pinker does, that "a coherent philosophy that emerged during the Age of Reason and the Enlightenment." convinced everyone to play nice. If you read John Gray against Pinker, it's pointed out how ephemeral such a ideological change would be. Citing the proportion of blacks in prison in the US, Gray is horrified at the idea of reduced violence in a society being attributed to measures that have a disparate impact. It doesn't matter if there is no intent:"people that Pinker describes as decivilised, and once they have been defined in this way there is a kind of logic in consigning this category of human beings to the custody of America’s barbaric justice system." Gray thinks civilisation has retreated if violence is reduced by such means.

    This is just the ancient argument about whether the world is what it looks like: a range of human types from the exultantly vicious to the naively caring and sharing. Or, people are all inherently unlimited and given favourable circumstances, amenable to moral/rational persuasion.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    ''Interestingly, in studies of East Asians and Europeans, what has tended to be found is that Europeans tend strongly towards "innate" explanations of behavior, while East Asians tend towards circumstantial reasons (i.e. there must have been something in their particular circumstances that made them act that way).''

    Very interesting!
    I think that the east asians showing strong pragmatic personality traits than caucasians, and specifically europeans.
    This factor also can explain the low creativity that for your time be relationed with one of five big traits of personality, idealized by Eynsenck, the openness. Pragmatism is a rational way of thinking while openness a lot of times is a recreation, creativity is cultural recreation. Probably exist two types of creativity, the rational creativity and the recreative creativity. East asians are similar than europeans only in the first ''type''. Pragmatism also is related to adaptation.
    East asians eat dogs and cats for many generations= pragmatism. But europeans probably may be find new way to avoid this situation. (complete especulation but possible).

    About endogamy and tribalistic violence…
    Well, the amish and the mormons are endogamic groups but very less violent.

    I agree with the theory of Hbd chicks, but it don't explain everything. Most important beyond the endogamy are the personality traits and cognitive styles that are selected.

    (Sorry for my english)

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Inbreeding and tribalism are partially related. In Latin America, is one of the most outbred populations in the world, with a huge portion of interracial relationships. However, crime is high. Do not just take exogamy is also necessary to select personality traits and intelligence that relate positively to the proposed genetic pacification.

    I think this is correct.

    The relationship between outbreeding and open institutions (i.e. ones which make the Western manufacturing and production efficient by allowing them to discard inefficient members and recruit efficient ones, and potentially grow in scale beyond "cottage industry") is strong, while the relationship between outbreeding and violence is weak.

    hbdchick tends towards the idea that a long history of outbreeding is what does the trick, because violence is a specific behavior that evolves in the context of inbreeding, not an actual consequence of it (as a way of explaining the Latin American situation) but this does not seem plausible to me.

    Peter describes "One reason was that the State had become stronger. But there also had been an ideological change. The State no longer saw itself as an honest broker for violent disputes that did not challenge its existence. Jurists were now arguing that the king must punish the wicked to ensure that the good may live in peace."

    However, this ideological change can also occur in inbred societies. The blogger agnostic argues that the moralistic religions, those which give rise to an ethic of society as a conflict between good and evil, were born within Middle Eastern civilizations, and are emphasized strongly within Islam, yet the regions of Islam and the Middle East are relatively inbred. The smaller scale clan groups do not necessarily act less efficiently to remove the "wicked" among them.

    But this pacification also had a down side. We now take it for granted. If people act violently, to the point of committing murder, we assume there must be a very good reason. Otherwise, why would they have done it?

    Interestingly, in studies of East Asians and Europeans, what has tended to be found is that Europeans tend strongly towards "innate" explanations of behavior, while East Asians tend towards circumstantial reasons (i.e. there must have been something in their particular circumstances that made them act that way).

    This is very marked in the world carried out by sociologists on the Fundamental Attribution Error – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error (although the FAE itself is about giving inconsistent explanations for the behavior of self and others who are the "same" rather than favoring innate or circumstantial reasons). Behavior is seen as much more reflective of the traits of the "actor" relative to the situation, in Western societies.

    I actually think this is purported to hold more widely for non-European populations.

    However, the weird thing modern day Europeans do where they go "Alright, its an innate trait of that person, but it was caused by society and circumstances" perhaps that does not happen as much in other cultures.

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  • Excellent post imo.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Inbreeding and tribalism are partially related. In Latin America, is one of the most outbred populations in the world, with a huge portion of interracial relationships. However, crime is high. Do not just take exogamy is also necessary to select personality traits and intelligence that relate positively to the proposed genetic pacification.

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  • Sean says:

    When people act violently or peacefully (in the same circumstances) it's because of their hereditary predisposition, not differences in their rational internalisation of universal morality.

    So we can't expect anyone, pacified or not, to choose the best alternative. The unpacified will be vicious. The pacified will think a that criminal was someone just like them, but one who got a raw deal from an insufficiently universalist society. The existence of the unpacified within our society is not going to make the elite doubt global moral universalism. In fact it will only entrench them; adding fuel to the fire of the 100% pacified leadership class, and fixating them ever more deeply on the gap between what is and what ought to be.

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  • From the rhetoric, you'd think the People's Republic of Berkeley was a sickle short of Communism. In reality however the university itself is fairly standard, probably no more radical than any other in the US. I sat in on a political economy class today (full of PE majors who are in general quite leftist) and...
  • prosa123 [AKA "ironrailsironweights"] says: • Website

    My guess is that the faculty members at Berkeley, especially in the liberal arts, are much farther left than the students.

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  • @charly
    You are comparing economic left right with moral left right issues. Universities are known to be on social issues very left. Economically they don't have that name. Probably because their students come from the Haves.

    Agreed.

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  • @Albo
    I have a question Anatoly, I apologize in advance if it's too much off-topic.

    On the subject of political economy, I remember you brought up that wikileaks cable about Li Keqiang. It said that when Li was the party chief in Liaonning, he used only three measures to assess economic growth: electricity consumption, rail cargo volume and bank lending.
    "All other figures, especially GDP statistics, are 'for reference only,' he said smiling"

    I don't remember where exactly you made the quote, on social networks perhaps, but if memory serves you were somewhat approving (not sure since I can't find your post anymore). I mean, you are studying political economy at UC Berkeley which I know is certainly a selective and elite cursus in the western hemisphere, so where exactly do you stand regarding Li's distrust of western economics? I ask because I sense growing criticism of economic theory in general. Some voices in France go as far as to compare economists to modern-day oracles, close to the prince, or economics as the scholasticism of the Anglo-saxon civilization.

    I mean I can understand Li, economics' record as a predictive science is dismal...

    It is not dismal. Problem is that it is captured to “predict” what the prince wants to hear not to tell the truth. And if the capture is deep enough than propagandist start to belief their own propaganda which end in tears.

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  • You are comparing economic left right with moral left right issues. Universities are known to be on social issues very left. Economically they don’t have that name. Probably because their students come from the Haves.

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    • Replies: @Dan
    Agreed.
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  • AK said:
    Actually just considering that Berkeley is associated with the likes of John Yoo (the pro-torture lawyer) or Arthur Jensen (the HBD’er) should prove it is no seething, uniformly liberal hotbed.

    Morton Hunt’s account of the reception of Jensen’s 1969 Harvard Educational Review article in The New Know-Nothings is informative:

    The most directly harrowing of Jensen’s experiences were the protest actions of various student groups, especially Students for a Democratic Society. The Berkeley campus police kept track of planned activities of the student groups and, when they could, warned Jensen in advance of demonstrations to be held at his classes. Sometimes he had to conduct graduate seminars secretly in other parts of the building, but at other times, when he could not, his classes were filled with hecklers whose shouting prevented him from being heard. Handbills distributed on campus demanded that the administration fire him, students marched in the courtyard under his office window chanting, “Fire Jensen!”, a sound truck circled the campus blasting “Fight racism! Fire Jensen!”, and pamphlets were distributed bearing his picture and headlined, “HITLER IS ALIVE AND WELL AND SPREADING RACIST PROPAGANDA AT BERKELEY! Come and help fight in the struggle against racism at Jensen’s class!”

    Apparently the faculty was more tolerant of Jensen though. What I find interesting and what seems to go unmentioned is that this is all happening at the tail-end of the so-called Berkley Free Speech Movement, which groups like Students for a Democratic Society were heavy participants in. Did nobody see a contradiction here?

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  • I have a question Anatoly, I apologize in advance if it’s too much off-topic.

    On the subject of political economy, I remember you brought up that wikileaks cable about Li Keqiang. It said that when Li was the party chief in Liaonning, he used only three measures to assess economic growth: electricity consumption, rail cargo volume and bank lending.
    “All other figures, especially GDP statistics, are ‘for reference only,’ he said smiling”

    I don’t remember where exactly you made the quote, on social networks perhaps, but if memory serves you were somewhat approving (not sure since I can’t find your post anymore). I mean, you are studying political economy at UC Berkeley which I know is certainly a selective and elite cursus in the western hemisphere, so where exactly do you stand regarding Li’s distrust of western economics? I ask because I sense growing criticism of economic theory in general. Some voices in France go as far as to compare economists to modern-day oracles, close to the prince, or economics as the scholasticism of the Anglo-saxon civilization.

    I mean I can understand Li, economics’ record as a predictive science is dismal…

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    • Replies: @charly
    It is not dismal. Problem is that it is captured to "predict" what the prince wants to hear not to tell the truth. And if the capture is deep enough than propagandist start to belief their own propaganda which end in tears.
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  • Over at Darwin Catholic a commenter asked whether a pro-choice commenter on this weblog also supported the death penalty. I presume that they were here pointing to the consistent life ethic issue. Many liberals who oppose capital punishment support abortion rights, and many conservatives who support capital punishment oppose abortion rights. These camps both have...
  • 17:
    But the sort of person who would mistake a restatement of another person’s belief as your own probably wouldn’t have the faintest notion what the “Epoché” tag would mean. It’s all Greek to them…

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  • #16, ideally there would be an Epoché tag. it regularly does occur that readers confuse my own viewpoint to one i’m restate and taking as a starting point….

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  • we expect Others to think logically :)

    LOL. No, no, I wasn’t being like profoundly philosophical here. Just wanted to make a point that an implicit accusation of “inconsistency” may needlessly offend your readers, even if you didn’t really mean it.

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  • @14, Razib,

    I’m in favor of the death penalty partly because I think it’s an efficient use of resources when dealing with serious criminals, and partly because I think genetics and early environment mold a criminal nature, so I am very skeptical that a killer can ever be reclaimed.

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  • if people are curious, i’m closest to the pro-choice/anti-death penalty position (i don’t reject the death penalty on principle, as much as implementation; i think it may be workable in the future in a transparent society).

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  • Others to think logically our own norms/beliefs are insulated from our own skeptical gaze. this includes scientists.

    a special qualification here. scientists, though human, are much better when it comes to within-domain models and questions because of the special nature of science. but if you move them out-of-domain they’re pretty mortal. this is obvious in cases like the creationist-engineer-syndrome.

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  • although I would have appreciated if you dug deeper in the GSS to look for broader patterns of consistency in both types of answers

    what do you mean by this? be precise in the queries you want in the GSS.

    We expect others to think logically

    i don’t think this is true. more explicitly, we expect Others to think logically :-) our own norms/beliefs are insulated from our own skeptical gaze. this includes scientists.

    if i understand you correctly if i go by this maxim any topic where i think that the subject(s) in question exhibit my own perception of illogicality needs a preface for why think they’re illogical. e.g., anything where i talk about religion or a political viewpoint i disagree with. more broadly, social science as a whole is going to become a game with an enormous overhead of contextualizing my own subjective assessment of objective facts. do i understand you correctly?

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  • @9, German,

    The policy of attacking the leadership and largely ignoring the rank and file (aka ordinary) member was what I was talking about. Germany killed or imprisoned the gang’s leadership. A policy of more bang for the buck.

    Sorry to take this O/T

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