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    Share of human accomplishment by race: Graphed by Emil Kirkegaard, based on Charles Murray's Human Accomplishment data. gwern also made some graphs. Here is the same thing in absolute figures: Consequently: 1. Dark Ages were definitely a real thing (in Europe), recent attempts to revise this regardless. 2. The age of Asian predominance lasted from...
  • @Bies Podkrakowski
    Robert Silverberg?

    Robert Silverberg?

    Certainly not. None of his books was translated and published before 1990′s, and I am not aware him being notably popular among the Czechs.

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  • @melanf

    I think a better method is to compare how many people rated the films on Kinopoisk.
    By that metric:
    Tarkovsky. Andrei Rublyov: 29 thousand
    Gayday. Ivan Vasilyevich Changes Profession: 322 thousand
    Danelia. Don’t Grieve: 5 thousand
    Eisenstein. Aleksandr Nevsky: 9 thousand
     
    Kinopoisk-site to search for rare films, this data is irrelevant.

    Yandex search
    Tarkovsky films:
    Ivan's Childhood: 33 thousand.
    Andrey Rublev: 36 thousand. (you must enter Yandex in the search field «Тарковский Андрей Рублев»)
    Nostalgia: 66 thousand results

    The exceptions are:
    Solaris: 274 thousand.
    Stalker: 13 million.
    Mirror: 15 million

    However, Stalker is a series of books and computer games (not related to Tarkovsky)
    http://stalkerportaal.ru/_pu/0/00331247.jpg

    Mirror is a film festival of the same name, Solaris is a book by Stanislav Lем. That is, these results are not related to Tarkovsky. If we evaluate Tarkovsky's own achievements in Yandex, Tarkovsky's films lose to popular Soviet films by about three orders of magnitude.
    For example "amphibian Man"
    http://cdn.fishki.net/upload/post/201412/19/1356651/1_118669.jpg

    - 61 million results in Yandex

    This is easily seen in Russia – popular films are used as the source of memes, visuals, quotes,

    http://alive-ua.com/uploads/posts/2013-01/1357247702_33.jpg


    etc. These quotes are clear to everyone ("Ja, ja, Kemska volost!"- meme from "Ivan Vasilyevich" 1 million results in Yandex; "кто с мечом к нам придет от меча и погибнет" - meme from "Alexander Nevsky" 72 million results in Yandex).
    On the contrary for 99% of the population of Russian, Tarkovsky's films unknown and uninteresting. When (rarely) Tarkovsky's films are shown on TV, the average Russian viewer switches the TV.
    There is a sect of "intellegencia" in which Tarkovsky is the object of worship. When this sect dies out, Tarkovsky will finally turn into a dead fossil known only to film historians.

    Kinopoisk-site to search for rare films, this data is irrelevant.

    Not being Russian, it’s tricky for me to comment on this statement. What I do know is that (1) Kinopoisk has an Alexa rank of 15 among Russian websites (https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/kinopoisk.ru), which suggests that it’s far more than a tool for looking up rare films, and (2) that recent films receive far more rankings than older films (as I showed in my previous post), and (3) that lowbrow TV series often receive plenty of rankings and high average scores. Put together, all this suggests to my mind that your ideas about the site amount to little more than one man’s opinion. (I have some anecdata to share myself: a Ukrainian bimbo I know uses Kinopoisk to look up here favorite soap-opera actresses.)

    There is a sect of “intellegencia” in which Tarkovsky is the object of worship. When this sect dies out, Tarkovsky will finally turn into a dead fossil known only to film historians.

    This confounded intelligentsia wouldn’t have spread its tentacles all the way to RuTracker, would it? I see around 100,000 downloads for “Человек-амфибия,” about the same for “Андрей Рублев,” and more than double that for Сталкер (only including hits for the film from 1979).

    To sum up, and throwing in Елки for comparison, we have:

    Человек-амфибия
    Yandex hits: 61 million (I take your word for it)
    Kinopoisk ratings: 15,574
    RuTracker downloads: around 100,000

    Андрей Рублев
    Yandex hits: 36,000 (again, taking your word for it)
    Kinopoisk ratings: 29,504
    RuTracker downloads: around 100,000

    Елки
    Yandex hits: [hard to say]
    Kinopoisk ratings: 96,684 ratings
    RuTracker downloads: around 200,000

    I rest my case.

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  • @melanf

    I think a better method is to compare how many people rated the films on Kinopoisk.
    By that metric:
    Tarkovsky. Andrei Rublyov: 29 thousand
    Gayday. Ivan Vasilyevich Changes Profession: 322 thousand
    Danelia. Don’t Grieve: 5 thousand
    Eisenstein. Aleksandr Nevsky: 9 thousand
     
    Kinopoisk-site to search for rare films, this data is irrelevant.

    Yandex search
    Tarkovsky films:
    Ivan's Childhood: 33 thousand.
    Andrey Rublev: 36 thousand. (you must enter Yandex in the search field «Тарковский Андрей Рублев»)
    Nostalgia: 66 thousand results

    The exceptions are:
    Solaris: 274 thousand.
    Stalker: 13 million.
    Mirror: 15 million

    However, Stalker is a series of books and computer games (not related to Tarkovsky)
    http://stalkerportaal.ru/_pu/0/00331247.jpg

    Mirror is a film festival of the same name, Solaris is a book by Stanislav Lем. That is, these results are not related to Tarkovsky. If we evaluate Tarkovsky's own achievements in Yandex, Tarkovsky's films lose to popular Soviet films by about three orders of magnitude.
    For example "amphibian Man"
    http://cdn.fishki.net/upload/post/201412/19/1356651/1_118669.jpg

    - 61 million results in Yandex

    This is easily seen in Russia – popular films are used as the source of memes, visuals, quotes,

    http://alive-ua.com/uploads/posts/2013-01/1357247702_33.jpg


    etc. These quotes are clear to everyone ("Ja, ja, Kemska volost!"- meme from "Ivan Vasilyevich" 1 million results in Yandex; "кто с мечом к нам придет от меча и погибнет" - meme from "Alexander Nevsky" 72 million results in Yandex).
    On the contrary for 99% of the population of Russian, Tarkovsky's films unknown and uninteresting. When (rarely) Tarkovsky's films are shown on TV, the average Russian viewer switches the TV.
    There is a sect of "intellegencia" in which Tarkovsky is the object of worship. When this sect dies out, Tarkovsky will finally turn into a dead fossil known only to film historians.

    There is a sect of “intellegencia” in which Tarkovsky is the object of worship. When this sect dies out, Tarkovsky will finally turn into a dead fossil known only to film historians.

    Well people like my parents do not write on the internet, and do not show in search results. But they have a very different view. People are developing shorter attention spans every year and our generation is not yet the worst. The people that are teenagers now, that grow up on instagram and whatsapp. will be even worse than our generation.

    All things that require quiet contemplation and meditative states, are becoming anathema in the 21st century.

    But it is not perhaps all gloomy. In the future, when people are finally genetically engineered for longer attention spans – perhaps in 2130 – then the re-releases of Tarkovsky, and of classic Japanese films like Imamura or Ozu – will become international bestsellers. With this context, we can also imagine that not just the more contemplative forms of art, will enjoy a renaissance, but also that people will start to emulate traditional customs like Japanese tea ceremony.

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  • @for-the-record
    I’ve heard the same thing about the Russian translations of Walter Scott

    I remember reading or being told about some American writer that no one had ever heard of (science fiction perhaps) who was very popular in Czechoslovakia in Soviet times, and the explanation turned out to be a brilliant translator.

    Robert Silverberg?

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    • Replies: @LH
    @Bies Podkrakowski

    Robert Silverberg?
     
    Certainly not. None of his books was translated and published before 1990's, and I am not aware him being notably popular among the Czechs.
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  • @JerseyJeffersonian
    Not to forget the introduction of an efficient horse collar between the 10th and 12th centuries that permitted utilizing powerful horses to pull the weight of plows suitable for tilling the heavier soils of northern Europe, thereby increasing the crop yields, and permitting the expansion of arable lands. Getting away from mere subsistence farming to farming with a surplus likely assisted in the rise of towns, trade, and more sophisticated craft activities since the town dwellers were liberated from the toil of providing their own food. Previously, only small segments of the population, lords and knights, were able to free ride on the shoulders of the peasants/serfs and escape the onerous necessity to participate in sustenance agriculture. Hence the increasing social friction between the feudal elites and the townspeople, as in absolute numbers, townspeople began to become a real force in Europe, a population whose interests were not reducible any longer to those of feudal lords.

    Technology at a really fundamental level being powerfully influential on European society's prospects.

    And yes, the Romans had water mills but did not install them in every village with a stream or a windmill instead.

    Serfs working for lords or the local clergy were not very productive. They delivered their obligations and their own modest wants from their strip farms. They typically used oxen. The surplus was produced on monastic estates. These were the big horse users. They had big fields with excellent crop rotation and yields not bettered before the 1920′s. They had the land to use heavy horses and heavy ploughs. Towns, Cities (London and Paris by boat) and armies were their market. The monks collected people. Single mothers, the ill, the lame, sturdy beggars and so on to work their huge properties.

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  • @reiner Tor
    I am aware of thou and art and speaketh. But I ran into words I didn’t understand at all, or sentences where I looked up all words and still didn’t get it, or where there’s an explanation how some words had a different meaning back then, etc. I already read normal modern English at roughly half or a third of my Hungarian reading speed (though in Hungarian I’m considered a fast reader), and even if I understood everything Shakespeare would be roughly twice slower than other English texts. I’d just give it up.

    Maybe I’ll try later. My English vocabulary keeps improving, so I guess I’m already much better than when I tried it some ten or fifteen years ago. But I’m not that eager.

    Shakespeare made up words. Some took, some didn’t.

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  • @Talha
    Wait - you left OUT the stupid parts??!! WOW!

    I hope Thomm's not watching - he's going to use this as ammo.

    Peace.

    You mean he’s going to say the League of Women Voters made them do it?

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  • @melanf

    if one takes the period 1 AD to 400AD and compares it 400 AD to 1000 AD, then one will in fact find much more significant advances in agriculture, society and even science and technology in the so called “Dark Ages”.
     
    I think you can not call the European scientists of the period 400 AD to 1000 AD, comparable to the Hero of Alexandria or Diophantus

    But the works of such Hellenistic lights as Hero and Diophantus were certainly groundbreaking within their circles, the impact was largely confined to those circles, and not more broadly, societally or economically influential. So what if the rudimentary principles of a steam engine were made available by Hero? In a slavery-based economy there was no perceived advantage to a labor-saving technology that would lessen the economic value of owning slaves. In the Middle Ages, such technologies were not left to molder; their value was seized upon and through diffusion became revolutionary in their impacts.

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  • @anonymous coward
    Our gracious host linked to the actual data set. If you open it, you'll see that it's a mix of pop-sci celebrities and affirmative action token minorities.

    Also, the whole idea of measuring achievement by counting celebrity names is ridiculous. The anonymous dude who invented the watermill contributed a million times more to human accomplishment than any given Arabian poet.

    Not to forget the introduction of an efficient horse collar between the 10th and 12th centuries that permitted utilizing powerful horses to pull the weight of plows suitable for tilling the heavier soils of northern Europe, thereby increasing the crop yields, and permitting the expansion of arable lands. Getting away from mere subsistence farming to farming with a surplus likely assisted in the rise of towns, trade, and more sophisticated craft activities since the town dwellers were liberated from the toil of providing their own food. Previously, only small segments of the population, lords and knights, were able to free ride on the shoulders of the peasants/serfs and escape the onerous necessity to participate in sustenance agriculture. Hence the increasing social friction between the feudal elites and the townspeople, as in absolute numbers, townspeople began to become a real force in Europe, a population whose interests were not reducible any longer to those of feudal lords.

    Technology at a really fundamental level being powerfully influential on European society’s prospects.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    And yes, the Romans had water mills but did not install them in every village with a stream or a windmill instead.

    Serfs working for lords or the local clergy were not very productive. They delivered their obligations and their own modest wants from their strip farms. They typically used oxen. The surplus was produced on monastic estates. These were the big horse users. They had big fields with excellent crop rotation and yields not bettered before the 1920's. They had the land to use heavy horses and heavy ploughs. Towns, Cities (London and Paris by boat) and armies were their market. The monks collected people. Single mothers, the ill, the lame, sturdy beggars and so on to work their huge properties.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @E
    "Andrei Rublyov" was never widely released, though (also, I get 188 thousand results for it, not 36). His film "Stalker" (тарковский сталкер) gets 12 million results on Yandex. Not that I'm particularly convinced that this is a perfect method for measuring such things... (Edit: yep, adding "-game" to the search narrows it to 126 thousand)

    I think a better method is to compare how many people rated the films on Kinopoisk.
    By that metric:
    Tarkovsky. Andrei Rublyov: 29 thousand
    Gayday. Ivan Vasilyevich Changes Profession: 322 thousand
    Danelia. Don't Grieve: 5 thousand
    Eisenstein. Aleksandr Nevsky: 9 thousand

    More like nobody watches Danelia and Eisenstein, amirite?

    Now let's compare those classics to a pathetic decade-old animated box-office failure with a 1.7/10 review score:
    Наша Маша и Волшебный орех: 12 thousand

    So... this makes it more significant than Eisenstein, right? Perhaps, except that people will still be watching Eisenstein decades from now long after that other travesty has been completely forgotten...

    Other Tarkovsky films:
    Ivan's Childhood: 20 thousand.
    Solaris: 36 thousand.
    Stalker: 51 thousand.
    Mirror: 19 thousand.

    So from the looks of it, Tarkovsky's only 10-20% as popular as the biggest Soviet comedy blockbusters like "Ivan Vasilyevich" (322 thousand), "Operation Y" (279 thousand), "Kidnapping, Caucasian Style" (228 thousand). On the other hand, his films match or exceed the popularity of Bondarchuk's "War and Peace" (19 thousand), the most expensive Soviet blockbuster film ever made.

    I think a better method is to compare how many people rated the films on Kinopoisk.
    By that metric:
    Tarkovsky. Andrei Rublyov: 29 thousand
    Gayday. Ivan Vasilyevich Changes Profession: 322 thousand
    Danelia. Don’t Grieve: 5 thousand
    Eisenstein. Aleksandr Nevsky: 9 thousand

    Kinopoisk-site to search for rare films, this data is irrelevant.

    Yandex search
    Tarkovsky films:
    Ivan’s Childhood: 33 thousand.
    Andrey Rublev: 36 thousand. (you must enter Yandex in the search field «Тарковский Андрей Рублев»)
    Nostalgia: 66 thousand results

    The exceptions are:
    Solaris: 274 thousand.
    Stalker: 13 million.
    Mirror: 15 million

    However, Stalker is a series of books and computer games (not related to Tarkovsky)
    Mirror is a film festival of the same name, Solaris is a book by Stanislav Lем. That is, these results are not related to Tarkovsky. If we evaluate Tarkovsky’s own achievements in Yandex, Tarkovsky’s films lose to popular Soviet films by about three orders of magnitude.
    For example “amphibian Man”
    – 61 million results in Yandex

    This is easily seen in Russia – popular films are used as the source of memes, visuals, quotes,

    etc. These quotes are clear to everyone (“Ja, ja, Kemska volost!”- meme from “Ivan Vasilyevich” 1 million results in Yandex; “кто с мечом к нам придет от меча и погибнет” – meme from “Alexander Nevsky” 72 million results in Yandex).
    On the contrary for 99% of the population of Russian, Tarkovsky’s films unknown and uninteresting. When (rarely) Tarkovsky’s films are shown on TV, the average Russian viewer switches the TV.
    There is a sect of “intellegencia” in which Tarkovsky is the object of worship. When this sect dies out, Tarkovsky will finally turn into a dead fossil known only to film historians.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    There is a sect of “intellegencia” in which Tarkovsky is the object of worship. When this sect dies out, Tarkovsky will finally turn into a dead fossil known only to film historians.
     
    Well people like my parents do not write on the internet, and do not show in search results. But they have a very different view. People are developing shorter attention spans every year and our generation is not yet the worst. The people that are teenagers now, that grow up on instagram and whatsapp. will be even worse than our generation.

    All things that require quiet contemplation and meditative states, are becoming anathema in the 21st century.

    But it is not perhaps all gloomy. In the future, when people are finally genetically engineered for longer attention spans - perhaps in 2130 - then the re-releases of Tarkovsky, and of classic Japanese films like Imamura or Ozu - will become international bestsellers. With this context, we can also imagine that not just the more contemplative forms of art, will enjoy a renaissance, but also that people will start to emulate traditional customs like Japanese tea ceremony.
    , @Swedish Family

    Kinopoisk-site to search for rare films, this data is irrelevant.
     
    Not being Russian, it's tricky for me to comment on this statement. What I do know is that (1) Kinopoisk has an Alexa rank of 15 among Russian websites (https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/kinopoisk.ru), which suggests that it's far more than a tool for looking up rare films, and (2) that recent films receive far more rankings than older films (as I showed in my previous post), and (3) that lowbrow TV series often receive plenty of rankings and high average scores. Put together, all this suggests to my mind that your ideas about the site amount to little more than one man's opinion. (I have some anecdata to share myself: a Ukrainian bimbo I know uses Kinopoisk to look up here favorite soap-opera actresses.)

    There is a sect of “intellegencia” in which Tarkovsky is the object of worship. When this sect dies out, Tarkovsky will finally turn into a dead fossil known only to film historians.
     
    This confounded intelligentsia wouldn't have spread its tentacles all the way to RuTracker, would it? I see around 100,000 downloads for "Человек-амфибия," about the same for "Андрей Рублев," and more than double that for Сталкер (only including hits for the film from 1979).

    To sum up, and throwing in Елки for comparison, we have:

    Человек-амфибия
    Yandex hits: 61 million (I take your word for it)
    Kinopoisk ratings: 15,574
    RuTracker downloads: around 100,000

    Андрей Рублев
    Yandex hits: 36,000 (again, taking your word for it)
    Kinopoisk ratings: 29,504
    RuTracker downloads: around 100,000

    Елки
    Yandex hits: [hard to say]
    Kinopoisk ratings: 96,684 ratings
    RuTracker downloads: around 200,000

    I rest my case.
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  • @Lars Porsena
    I would agree with Dmitry that even apart from translation issues, Shakespeare while not terribly hard is not terribly quick to read either. It is in many places poetic, so it is meant to be perhaps a bit evocative and open to interpretation, and there is in terms of sentence structure and reading level a bit more complexity to the old style, I think they even use to speak slower back then. It does have to be read with a bit of rumination. It's neither the slowest or the quickest thing you could read. To see it in a play, maybe they figured you wouldn't want them to catch it all on one viewing so they would come back a few times. If it's a drag and you don't enjoy it then it's probably not worth it.

    Here is the whole of one of those parts above I quoted, probably my favorite Shakespeare excerpt ever, Julius Caesar, Act 3 Scene 1, right after the assassination of Caesar, the ultimate declaration of Taking The Ball and Going Home, where Mark Anthony basically declares war on the universe and a reality that would turn out this way for him:

    ANTONY
    O, pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth,
    That I am meek and gentle with these butchers!
    Thou art the ruins of the noblest man
    That ever livèd in the tide of times.
    Woe to the hand that shed this costly blood!
    Over thy wounds now do I prophesy—
    Which, like dumb mouths, do ope their ruby lips
    To beg the voice and utterance of my tongue—
    A curse shall light upon the limbs of men.
    Domestic fury and fierce civil strife
    Shall cumber all the parts of Italy.
    Blood and destruction shall be so in use,
    And dreadful objects so familiar,
    That mothers shall but smile when they behold
    Their infants quartered with the hands of war,
    All pity choked with custom of fell deeds,
    And Caesar’s spirit, ranging for revenge,
    With Ate by his side come hot from hell,
    Shall in these confines with a monarch’s voice
    Cry “Havoc!” and let slip the dogs of war,
    That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
    With carrion men, groaning for burial.

    You can read it a bit faster if you take alot of it to be flowery and evocative and poetic, you don't have to quite understand all of it to get the image. To be honest, it's not quite obvious what "With Ate by his side come hot from hell" means entirely even if you speak English perfectly, why is Ate capitalized and what is this Ate by his side? A poetic reading is something like, a consumption or destruction urge by his side come back from hell for revenge? It's a bit open to interpret exactly what he means. I think that's enough, you can get the idea without catching the reference.

    If you want to spend more time out of it you can google stuff like that and I just found this out myself:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At%C3%AB

    Apparently Ate is the Greek goddess of mischief, folly, and delusion and ruin.

    I have just learned that but it does not really change my interpretation. Stuff like "That this foul deed shall smell above the earth With carrion men, groaning for burial." is a very fancy way of saying "I will cover the world with rotting corpses". But it is meant poetically, it paints a picture, it mentions the smell, rotting men, groaning (which their corpses probably would due to out-gassing and whatnot) for burial. It's evocative.

    If you contrast with the so called 'modern' version of Shakespeare, to the extent they modernize it they usually do strip all the poetry and imagery out of it. You could go and modernize any modern or past poets the same way by simply stripping all the poetry out of their poems and trying to state them plainly. Instead of Tennyson's 'Half a league, half a league, half a league onward, all in the valley of Death rode the 600' it would just say '600 guys rode half a mile into a dangerous place where people were shooting at them. Then one of them yelled 'charge' and most of them got shot.' But that's not poetic but it reads much quicker.

    With Shakespeare the whole point would be you have to enjoy it, or it would not be worth it. No one can claim reading Shakespeare will teach you world class philosophy, or physics, or accurate history. It was just entertainment. The biggest barrier is probably not that the language has changed but the type and style of story we enjoy has changed, it's half fiction drama, half poetry with (inaccurate) historical references. Homer's Iliad was poetry, the Norse Poetic Edda. Nowadays it would be weird for people to be using poems as a vehicle to tell stories. But Shakespeare's plays are all in Iambic pentameter so they are actually poems, it's not the way people normally spoke even back at that time, it's in a singsong verse.

    Shakespeare’s country clowns often speak normal speech, not Iambic pentameter, which is not all that much easier to understand.

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  • Anon[291] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor
    I am aware of thou and art and speaketh. But I ran into words I didn’t understand at all, or sentences where I looked up all words and still didn’t get it, or where there’s an explanation how some words had a different meaning back then, etc. I already read normal modern English at roughly half or a third of my Hungarian reading speed (though in Hungarian I’m considered a fast reader), and even if I understood everything Shakespeare would be roughly twice slower than other English texts. I’d just give it up.

    Maybe I’ll try later. My English vocabulary keeps improving, so I guess I’m already much better than when I tried it some ten or fifteen years ago. But I’m not that eager.

    What words? “Gentle his condition” was the only phrase I didn’t already know, and the meaning is obvious in context.

    Shakespeare in general is not an easy read but not a particularly hard one either. (Browning is a hard read).

    As for “Dante to an Italian”, that’s a laugh, I think.

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  • @reiner Tor

    “Thou callest me a dog before thou hast a reason, but since I am a dog beware my fangs”

    callest – called, and hast – had
     
    I think “callest” and “hast” are actually present tense second person conjugated (the same conjugation as in German), so the sentence would be:

    “You call me a dog before you have a reason, but since I am a dog beware my fangs”

    I would agree with Dmitry that even apart from translation issues, Shakespeare while not terribly hard is not terribly quick to read either. It is in many places poetic, so it is meant to be perhaps a bit evocative and open to interpretation, and there is in terms of sentence structure and reading level a bit more complexity to the old style, I think they even use to speak slower back then. It does have to be read with a bit of rumination. It’s neither the slowest or the quickest thing you could read. To see it in a play, maybe they figured you wouldn’t want them to catch it all on one viewing so they would come back a few times. If it’s a drag and you don’t enjoy it then it’s probably not worth it.

    Here is the whole of one of those parts above I quoted, probably my favorite Shakespeare excerpt ever, Julius Caesar, Act 3 Scene 1, right after the assassination of Caesar, the ultimate declaration of Taking The Ball and Going Home, where Mark Anthony basically declares war on the universe and a reality that would turn out this way for him:

    ANTONY
    O, pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth,
    That I am meek and gentle with these butchers!
    Thou art the ruins of the noblest man
    That ever livèd in the tide of times.
    Woe to the hand that shed this costly blood!
    Over thy wounds now do I prophesy—
    Which, like dumb mouths, do ope their ruby lips
    To beg the voice and utterance of my tongue—
    A curse shall light upon the limbs of men.
    Domestic fury and fierce civil strife
    Shall cumber all the parts of Italy.
    Blood and destruction shall be so in use,
    And dreadful objects so familiar,
    That mothers shall but smile when they behold
    Their infants quartered with the hands of war,
    All pity choked with custom of fell deeds,
    And Caesar’s spirit, ranging for revenge,
    With Ate by his side come hot from hell,
    Shall in these confines with a monarch’s voice
    Cry “Havoc!” and let slip the dogs of war,
    That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
    With carrion men, groaning for burial.

    You can read it a bit faster if you take alot of it to be flowery and evocative and poetic, you don’t have to quite understand all of it to get the image. To be honest, it’s not quite obvious what “With Ate by his side come hot from hell” means entirely even if you speak English perfectly, why is Ate capitalized and what is this Ate by his side? A poetic reading is something like, a consumption or destruction urge by his side come back from hell for revenge? It’s a bit open to interpret exactly what he means. I think that’s enough, you can get the idea without catching the reference.

    If you want to spend more time out of it you can google stuff like that and I just found this out myself:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At%C3%AB

    Apparently Ate is the Greek goddess of mischief, folly, and delusion and ruin.

    I have just learned that but it does not really change my interpretation. Stuff like “That this foul deed shall smell above the earth With carrion men, groaning for burial.” is a very fancy way of saying “I will cover the world with rotting corpses”. But it is meant poetically, it paints a picture, it mentions the smell, rotting men, groaning (which their corpses probably would due to out-gassing and whatnot) for burial. It’s evocative.

    If you contrast with the so called ‘modern’ version of Shakespeare, to the extent they modernize it they usually do strip all the poetry and imagery out of it. You could go and modernize any modern or past poets the same way by simply stripping all the poetry out of their poems and trying to state them plainly. Instead of Tennyson’s ‘Half a league, half a league, half a league onward, all in the valley of Death rode the 600′ it would just say ’600 guys rode half a mile into a dangerous place where people were shooting at them. Then one of them yelled ‘charge’ and most of them got shot.’ But that’s not poetic but it reads much quicker.

    With Shakespeare the whole point would be you have to enjoy it, or it would not be worth it. No one can claim reading Shakespeare will teach you world class philosophy, or physics, or accurate history. It was just entertainment. The biggest barrier is probably not that the language has changed but the type and style of story we enjoy has changed, it’s half fiction drama, half poetry with (inaccurate) historical references. Homer’s Iliad was poetry, the Norse Poetic Edda. Nowadays it would be weird for people to be using poems as a vehicle to tell stories. But Shakespeare’s plays are all in Iambic pentameter so they are actually poems, it’s not the way people normally spoke even back at that time, it’s in a singsong verse.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Shakespeare's country clowns often speak normal speech, not Iambic pentameter, which is not all that much easier to understand.
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  • LH says:
    @for-the-record
    I’ve heard the same thing about the Russian translations of Walter Scott

    I remember reading or being told about some American writer that no one had ever heard of (science fiction perhaps) who was very popular in Czechoslovakia in Soviet times, and the explanation turned out to be a brilliant translator.

    I remember reading or being told about some American writer that no one had ever heard of (science fiction perhaps) who was very popular in Czechoslovakia in Soviet times, and the explanation turned out to be a brilliant translator.

    It could be American poet Robinson Jeffers (1887 – 1962), translated to Czech language by poet Kamil Bednář (1912 – 1972).

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  • @Lars Porsena
    Sun is an issue. Not all pale people burn on contact with it you know. I am myself quite pale if I stay out of it, but I can tan pretty damn bronze if I'm outside all summer. At least 97% northern euro DNA and red highlights.

    Funnily enough, I have an arab friend who only burns and can't tan.

    It was an issue with the Jomon in Japan for anthropologists. There are some accounts that they were nearly black and others that they were quite white, with anthropologists speculating both that might have been from australoid groups occupying Japan prior to the Japanese and also that might have been caucasoid. Both these theories were ostensibly wrong, they are asian.

    Apparently part of the issue though was lifestyle, the young ones would spend all day in a boat and turn quite dark. The children and the older ones who stayed out of the sun though were even paler than the Japanese.

    Sun is an issue. Not all pale people burn on contact with it you know. I am myself quite pale if I stay out of it, but I can tan pretty damn bronze if I’m outside all summer. At least 97% northern euro DNA and red highlights.

    Funnily enough, I have an arab friend who only burns and can’t tan.

    It was an issue with the Jomon in Japan for anthropologists. There are some accounts that they were nearly black and others that they were quite white, with anthropologists speculating both that might have been from australoid groups occupying Japan prior to the Japanese and also that might have been caucasoid. Both these theories were ostensibly wrong, they are asian.

    Apparently part of the issue though was lifestyle, the young ones would spend all day in a boat and turn quite dark. The children and the older ones who stayed out of the sun though were even paler than the Japanese.

    Yes susceptibility to sunburn will correlate with paleness of skin. But the result is a scatter plot, which you can summarise with a straight line (but the actual reality is not straight line). Some pale people are much more tolerant to sun than others. And some will even be more tolerant to sun than less pale people than themselves (just a lower proportion of them than vice-versa).

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  • @reiner Tor
    I am aware of thou and art and speaketh. But I ran into words I didn’t understand at all, or sentences where I looked up all words and still didn’t get it, or where there’s an explanation how some words had a different meaning back then, etc. I already read normal modern English at roughly half or a third of my Hungarian reading speed (though in Hungarian I’m considered a fast reader), and even if I understood everything Shakespeare would be roughly twice slower than other English texts. I’d just give it up.

    Maybe I’ll try later. My English vocabulary keeps improving, so I guess I’m already much better than when I tried it some ten or fifteen years ago. But I’m not that eager.

    I am aware of thou and art and speaketh. But I ran into words I didn’t understand at all, or sentences where I looked up all words and still didn’t get it, or where there’s an explanation how some words had a different meaning back then, etc. I already read normal modern English at roughly half or a third of my Hungarian reading speed (though in Hungarian I’m considered a fast reader), and even if I understood everything Shakespeare would be roughly twice slower than other English texts. I’d just give it up.

    Maybe I’ll try later. My English vocabulary keeps improving, so I guess I’m already much better than when I tried it some ten or fifteen years ago. But I’m not that eager.

    It’s probably not your lack of English, but more just reading too fast.

    My English is not perfect, but I can understand and find the text very interesting.

    By the way, I can write notes in the commas of what I think this says.

    “Two households, both alike in dignity [two families both of equal high class status],
    In fair Verona, where we lay our scene,
    From ancient grudge [they became enemies long ago] break to new mutiny [a new war will break out],
    Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean [due to their war with each other, neither has hands without blood and crime, which dirties their civic duties - implication is whole civic life of Verona is undermined by this war between the families].
    From forth the fatal loins of these two foes [children born from the two fatal families]
    A pair of star-cross’d lovers take their life; [two ill-fated lovers will kill themselves]
    Whose misadventured piteous overthrows [whose unfortunate rebellion]
    Do with their death bury their parents’ strife. [will end the war between their parents]
    The fearful passage of their death-mark’d love, [the frightening story of their tragic/fatal romance]
    And the continuance of their parents’ rage, [and continued anger of the parents]
    Which, but their children’s end, nought could remove, [which while Romeo and Juliet are alive will not end, but peace between the families will only happen as result of their death]
    Is now the two hours’ traffic of our stage; [is now the topic of the next two hours - actors running off and on the stage]
    The which if you with patient ears attend, [if you listen carefully]
    What here shall miss, our toil shall strive to mend.” [what is difficult to understand in the story - I think he means in terms of senselessness of the tragedy - the actors will work hard to make clear in their art]”

    ————-

    ACT I
    PROLOGUE
    Two households, both alike in dignity,
    In fair Verona, where we lay our scene,
    From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
    Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.
    From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
    A pair of star-cross’d lovers take their life;
    Whose misadventured piteous overthrows
    Do with their death bury their parents’ strife.
    The fearful passage of their death-mark’d love,
    And the continuance of their parents’ rage,
    Which, but their children’s end, nought could remove,
    Is now the two hours’ traffic of our stage;
    The which if you with patient ears attend,
    What here shall miss, our toil shall strive to mend.

    http://shakespeare.mit.edu/romeo_juliet/full.html

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  • @Lars Porsena
    Are class differences usually expressed in facial features? What does a stereotypical peasant look like?

    Low cheekbones, kind of unrefined expression. You know when you see it (I mean West European peasant).

    I’ve spent multiple months overall in Israel over my life. European peasant looking Jews are more common than you imagine, especially if you go in an upper class area of Israel (ironically), you see a lot of them, and their peasant look and behaviour is much more than in Europe (you know they have 0% aristocrat blood).

    It’s also their manners and way of behaving.

    (If you ever invited to the house of native Israelis, you are guaranteed they will all randomly shouting at each other, and eat with their hands, and from each other’s spoons.)

    I’m in love this with culture and studying Hebrew for years, but most people are horrified – also it is the complete opposite of how I imagined Jews would be before I first started going there. I imagined they were a kind of sophisticated intellectual people.

    It’s also their primitive facial expressions (which is not just for television, they actually are making faces like this).

    The Arab Jews in Israel – which is actually the majority of the Jews in Israel (over 60%), also have different expressions of their own – more like this guy (it’s really a different culture, which you have to meet them to believe it). It’s probably actually more low-class than the native Arab culture (as the Arab Jews again, have likely 0% Arab aristocratic origin).

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  • @Lars Porsena
    Have you tried? I think you are way overestimating how difficult it is to read Shakespeare's version of english. It's basically just like modern english, but with "thou" instead of you and "speaketh" instead of "speak".

    Now, middle english like Chaucer's Canterburry Tales is quite difficult to parse at all, incomprehensible in places, and old english like Beowulf may as well be dutch or something, it is a totally different language. Shakespeare's english though is almost just like the modern one with barely some verb conjugation differences.

    To wit:

    "Oh pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth, that I am meek and gentle with these butchers. Thou art the ruins of the greatest man that ever lived in the tide of times"

    Thou art - you are.

    Or,

    "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. For he that fights with me today shall be my brother, be he ne'er so vile, this day shall gentle his condition, and gentlemen in England now in bed shall think themselves accursed they were not here and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks that fought with us upon St. Crispin's day"

    Ne'er - never and whilst - while.

    "Thou callest me a dog before thou hast a reason, but since I am a dog beware my fangs"

    Thou - you, callest - called, and hast - had.

    Nothing from your writing on your comments, whether you are a native speaker or not, suggests you would not be able to parse the text.

    “Thou callest me a dog before thou hast a reason, but since I am a dog beware my fangs”

    callest – called, and hast – had

    I think “callest” and “hast” are actually present tense second person conjugated (the same conjugation as in German), so the sentence would be:

    “You call me a dog before you have a reason, but since I am a dog beware my fangs”

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    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    I would agree with Dmitry that even apart from translation issues, Shakespeare while not terribly hard is not terribly quick to read either. It is in many places poetic, so it is meant to be perhaps a bit evocative and open to interpretation, and there is in terms of sentence structure and reading level a bit more complexity to the old style, I think they even use to speak slower back then. It does have to be read with a bit of rumination. It's neither the slowest or the quickest thing you could read. To see it in a play, maybe they figured you wouldn't want them to catch it all on one viewing so they would come back a few times. If it's a drag and you don't enjoy it then it's probably not worth it.

    Here is the whole of one of those parts above I quoted, probably my favorite Shakespeare excerpt ever, Julius Caesar, Act 3 Scene 1, right after the assassination of Caesar, the ultimate declaration of Taking The Ball and Going Home, where Mark Anthony basically declares war on the universe and a reality that would turn out this way for him:

    ANTONY
    O, pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth,
    That I am meek and gentle with these butchers!
    Thou art the ruins of the noblest man
    That ever livèd in the tide of times.
    Woe to the hand that shed this costly blood!
    Over thy wounds now do I prophesy—
    Which, like dumb mouths, do ope their ruby lips
    To beg the voice and utterance of my tongue—
    A curse shall light upon the limbs of men.
    Domestic fury and fierce civil strife
    Shall cumber all the parts of Italy.
    Blood and destruction shall be so in use,
    And dreadful objects so familiar,
    That mothers shall but smile when they behold
    Their infants quartered with the hands of war,
    All pity choked with custom of fell deeds,
    And Caesar’s spirit, ranging for revenge,
    With Ate by his side come hot from hell,
    Shall in these confines with a monarch’s voice
    Cry “Havoc!” and let slip the dogs of war,
    That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
    With carrion men, groaning for burial.

    You can read it a bit faster if you take alot of it to be flowery and evocative and poetic, you don't have to quite understand all of it to get the image. To be honest, it's not quite obvious what "With Ate by his side come hot from hell" means entirely even if you speak English perfectly, why is Ate capitalized and what is this Ate by his side? A poetic reading is something like, a consumption or destruction urge by his side come back from hell for revenge? It's a bit open to interpret exactly what he means. I think that's enough, you can get the idea without catching the reference.

    If you want to spend more time out of it you can google stuff like that and I just found this out myself:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At%C3%AB

    Apparently Ate is the Greek goddess of mischief, folly, and delusion and ruin.

    I have just learned that but it does not really change my interpretation. Stuff like "That this foul deed shall smell above the earth With carrion men, groaning for burial." is a very fancy way of saying "I will cover the world with rotting corpses". But it is meant poetically, it paints a picture, it mentions the smell, rotting men, groaning (which their corpses probably would due to out-gassing and whatnot) for burial. It's evocative.

    If you contrast with the so called 'modern' version of Shakespeare, to the extent they modernize it they usually do strip all the poetry and imagery out of it. You could go and modernize any modern or past poets the same way by simply stripping all the poetry out of their poems and trying to state them plainly. Instead of Tennyson's 'Half a league, half a league, half a league onward, all in the valley of Death rode the 600' it would just say '600 guys rode half a mile into a dangerous place where people were shooting at them. Then one of them yelled 'charge' and most of them got shot.' But that's not poetic but it reads much quicker.

    With Shakespeare the whole point would be you have to enjoy it, or it would not be worth it. No one can claim reading Shakespeare will teach you world class philosophy, or physics, or accurate history. It was just entertainment. The biggest barrier is probably not that the language has changed but the type and style of story we enjoy has changed, it's half fiction drama, half poetry with (inaccurate) historical references. Homer's Iliad was poetry, the Norse Poetic Edda. Nowadays it would be weird for people to be using poems as a vehicle to tell stories. But Shakespeare's plays are all in Iambic pentameter so they are actually poems, it's not the way people normally spoke even back at that time, it's in a singsong verse.
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  • @Lars Porsena
    Have you tried? I think you are way overestimating how difficult it is to read Shakespeare's version of english. It's basically just like modern english, but with "thou" instead of you and "speaketh" instead of "speak".

    Now, middle english like Chaucer's Canterburry Tales is quite difficult to parse at all, incomprehensible in places, and old english like Beowulf may as well be dutch or something, it is a totally different language. Shakespeare's english though is almost just like the modern one with barely some verb conjugation differences.

    To wit:

    "Oh pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth, that I am meek and gentle with these butchers. Thou art the ruins of the greatest man that ever lived in the tide of times"

    Thou art - you are.

    Or,

    "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. For he that fights with me today shall be my brother, be he ne'er so vile, this day shall gentle his condition, and gentlemen in England now in bed shall think themselves accursed they were not here and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks that fought with us upon St. Crispin's day"

    Ne'er - never and whilst - while.

    "Thou callest me a dog before thou hast a reason, but since I am a dog beware my fangs"

    Thou - you, callest - called, and hast - had.

    Nothing from your writing on your comments, whether you are a native speaker or not, suggests you would not be able to parse the text.

    I am aware of thou and art and speaketh. But I ran into words I didn’t understand at all, or sentences where I looked up all words and still didn’t get it, or where there’s an explanation how some words had a different meaning back then, etc. I already read normal modern English at roughly half or a third of my Hungarian reading speed (though in Hungarian I’m considered a fast reader), and even if I understood everything Shakespeare would be roughly twice slower than other English texts. I’d just give it up.

    Maybe I’ll try later. My English vocabulary keeps improving, so I guess I’m already much better than when I tried it some ten or fifteen years ago. But I’m not that eager.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    I am aware of thou and art and speaketh. But I ran into words I didn’t understand at all, or sentences where I looked up all words and still didn’t get it, or where there’s an explanation how some words had a different meaning back then, etc. I already read normal modern English at roughly half or a third of my Hungarian reading speed (though in Hungarian I’m considered a fast reader), and even if I understood everything Shakespeare would be roughly twice slower than other English texts. I’d just give it up.

    Maybe I’ll try later. My English vocabulary keeps improving, so I guess I’m already much better than when I tried it some ten or fifteen years ago. But I’m not that eager.
     
    It's probably not your lack of English, but more just reading too fast.

    My English is not perfect, but I can understand and find the text very interesting.

    By the way, I can write notes in the commas of what I think this says.

    "Two households, both alike in dignity [two families both of equal high class status],
    In fair Verona, where we lay our scene,
    From ancient grudge [they became enemies long ago] break to new mutiny [a new war will break out],
    Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean [due to their war with each other, neither has hands without blood and crime, which dirties their civic duties - implication is whole civic life of Verona is undermined by this war between the families].
    From forth the fatal loins of these two foes [children born from the two fatal families]
    A pair of star-cross'd lovers take their life; [two ill-fated lovers will kill themselves]
    Whose misadventured piteous overthrows [whose unfortunate rebellion]
    Do with their death bury their parents' strife. [will end the war between their parents]
    The fearful passage of their death-mark'd love, [the frightening story of their tragic/fatal romance]
    And the continuance of their parents' rage, [and continued anger of the parents]
    Which, but their children's end, nought could remove, [which while Romeo and Juliet are alive will not end, but peace between the families will only happen as result of their death]
    Is now the two hours' traffic of our stage; [is now the topic of the next two hours - actors running off and on the stage]
    The which if you with patient ears attend, [if you listen carefully]
    What here shall miss, our toil shall strive to mend." [what is difficult to understand in the story - I think he means in terms of senselessness of the tragedy - the actors will work hard to make clear in their art]"


    -------------

    ACT I
    PROLOGUE
    Two households, both alike in dignity,
    In fair Verona, where we lay our scene,
    From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
    Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.
    From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
    A pair of star-cross'd lovers take their life;
    Whose misadventured piteous overthrows
    Do with their death bury their parents' strife.
    The fearful passage of their death-mark'd love,
    And the continuance of their parents' rage,
    Which, but their children's end, nought could remove,
    Is now the two hours' traffic of our stage;
    The which if you with patient ears attend,
    What here shall miss, our toil shall strive to mend.


    http://shakespeare.mit.edu/romeo_juliet/full.html
    , @Anon
    What words? "Gentle his condition" was the only phrase I didn't already know, and the meaning is obvious in context.

    Shakespeare in general is not an easy read but not a particularly hard one either. (Browning is a hard read).

    As for "Dante to an Italian", that's a laugh, I think.
    , @Philip Owen
    Shakespeare made up words. Some took, some didn't.
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  • @reiner Tor
    You probably have an IQ over 130, at worst 115. It’s very difficult to read for the bottom two thirds. It’s probably not even easy for you. I bet you missed more than you noticed, for example there must have been lots of phrases you misunderstood, or nuances you didn’t get, and probably it was way slower (i.e. less enjoyable) to read than if it was translated from early modern to modern English.

    I am not a native speaker, which immediately disqualifies me from reading it.

    Have you tried? I think you are way overestimating how difficult it is to read Shakespeare’s version of english. It’s basically just like modern english, but with “thou” instead of you and “speaketh” instead of “speak”.

    Now, middle english like Chaucer’s Canterburry Tales is quite difficult to parse at all, incomprehensible in places, and old english like Beowulf may as well be dutch or something, it is a totally different language. Shakespeare’s english though is almost just like the modern one with barely some verb conjugation differences.

    To wit:

    “Oh pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth, that I am meek and gentle with these butchers. Thou art the ruins of the greatest man that ever lived in the tide of times”

    Thou art – you are.

    Or,

    “We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. For he that fights with me today shall be my brother, be he ne’er so vile, this day shall gentle his condition, and gentlemen in England now in bed shall think themselves accursed they were not here and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks that fought with us upon St. Crispin’s day”

    Ne’er – never and whilst – while.

    Thou callest me a dog before thou hast a reason, but since I am a dog beware my fangs”

    Thou – you, callest – called, and hast – had.

    Nothing from your writing on your comments, whether you are a native speaker or not, suggests you would not be able to parse the text.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I am aware of thou and art and speaketh. But I ran into words I didn’t understand at all, or sentences where I looked up all words and still didn’t get it, or where there’s an explanation how some words had a different meaning back then, etc. I already read normal modern English at roughly half or a third of my Hungarian reading speed (though in Hungarian I’m considered a fast reader), and even if I understood everything Shakespeare would be roughly twice slower than other English texts. I’d just give it up.

    Maybe I’ll try later. My English vocabulary keeps improving, so I guess I’m already much better than when I tried it some ten or fifteen years ago. But I’m not that eager.
    , @reiner Tor

    “Thou callest me a dog before thou hast a reason, but since I am a dog beware my fangs”

    callest – called, and hast – had
     
    I think “callest” and “hast” are actually present tense second person conjugated (the same conjugation as in German), so the sentence would be:

    “You call me a dog before you have a reason, but since I am a dog beware my fangs”
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  • @Dmitry

    The exception does not make the rule however, Kurds are not white as most do not look like that. The same applies to jews and using Scarlet Johansen as the example.

     

    Plenty of Jews - if you walk around in Israel - look like Northern European peasants, with even a lot with stereotypical unrefined, peasant faces. That's somewhere like 10%-20%. While another over half look like Arabs.

    The problem (including for Jews themselves) is using a multinational population, bound by ancient religious heritage, as a nationality.

    Are class differences usually expressed in facial features? What does a stereotypical peasant look like?

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    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Low cheekbones, kind of unrefined expression. You know when you see it (I mean West European peasant).

    I've spent multiple months overall in Israel over my life. European peasant looking Jews are more common than you imagine, especially if you go in an upper class area of Israel (ironically), you see a lot of them, and their peasant look and behaviour is much more than in Europe (you know they have 0% aristocrat blood).

    It's also their manners and way of behaving.

    (If you ever invited to the house of native Israelis, you are guaranteed they will all randomly shouting at each other, and eat with their hands, and from each other's spoons.)

    I'm in love this with culture and studying Hebrew for years, but most people are horrified - also it is the complete opposite of how I imagined Jews would be before I first started going there. I imagined they were a kind of sophisticated intellectual people.

    It's also their primitive facial expressions (which is not just for television, they actually are making faces like this).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMdW1E4UEfU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qjQ6WoqFjg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1T3U1Reg4c



    The Arab Jews in Israel - which is actually the majority of the Jews in Israel (over 60%), also have different expressions of their own - more like this guy (it's really a different culture, which you have to meet them to believe it). It's probably actually more low-class than the native Arab culture (as the Arab Jews again, have likely 0% Arab aristocratic origin).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8e3NXxWSDI
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  • @Dmitry
    I do not have such problems to understand this language.

    The metaphors used in poetry of all languages are quite constant. E.g. eyes - stars.

    The issue is whether people are used to reading poetry or prose.

    For Shakespeare, the metaphor-dense language is poetry, and needs to be read slowly as poetry (and becomes very difficult to understand when heard rapidly spoken by actors in theatre).

    Not entirely so– take the original of Khayyam’s “a loaf of bread”, etc. verse, or some of the established metaphors of the ancient Greeks: the “wine-dark sea” for instance.

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  • @Dmitry
    It sounds like you are lucky, despite being ginger :)

    I start going red in what has seemed just 5-10 minutes on the beach in a subtropical latitude. That was before I remembering to get covered sunscreen. And even after wearing sunscreen, with skin peeling off days later. My mother has had even worse experiences in the Mediterranean - ending up looking like a burn victim.

    Relating to climate, I agree with your general point about toughness for sure. The extreme heat (and even humidity( you can adapt to with time, and it's mainly psychological (it's not like Africans experience it any differently, they just get accustomed).

    Likewise, temperatures which felt cold in October, start to feel warm in April - after a few months of winter.

    But sunburn is not psychological, and you either have the genetics to get a tan after sun-exposure or to go red and have your skin peel off.

    Sun is an issue. Not all pale people burn on contact with it you know. I am myself quite pale if I stay out of it, but I can tan pretty damn bronze if I’m outside all summer. At least 97% northern euro DNA and red highlights.

    Funnily enough, I have an arab friend who only burns and can’t tan.

    It was an issue with the Jomon in Japan for anthropologists. There are some accounts that they were nearly black and others that they were quite white, with anthropologists speculating both that might have been from australoid groups occupying Japan prior to the Japanese and also that might have been caucasoid. Both these theories were ostensibly wrong, they are asian.

    Apparently part of the issue though was lifestyle, the young ones would spend all day in a boat and turn quite dark. The children and the older ones who stayed out of the sun though were even paler than the Japanese.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Sun is an issue. Not all pale people burn on contact with it you know. I am myself quite pale if I stay out of it, but I can tan pretty damn bronze if I’m outside all summer. At least 97% northern euro DNA and red highlights.

    Funnily enough, I have an arab friend who only burns and can’t tan.

    It was an issue with the Jomon in Japan for anthropologists. There are some accounts that they were nearly black and others that they were quite white, with anthropologists speculating both that might have been from australoid groups occupying Japan prior to the Japanese and also that might have been caucasoid. Both these theories were ostensibly wrong, they are asian.

    Apparently part of the issue though was lifestyle, the young ones would spend all day in a boat and turn quite dark. The children and the older ones who stayed out of the sun though were even paler than the Japanese.
     
    Yes susceptibility to sunburn will correlate with paleness of skin. But the result is a scatter plot, which you can summarise with a straight line (but the actual reality is not straight line). Some pale people are much more tolerant to sun than others. And some will even be more tolerant to sun than less pale people than themselves (just a lower proportion of them than vice-versa).
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  • Anon[291] • Disclaimer says:
    @Verymuchalive
    You could say even more about Marlowe and Ben Johnson. The problem about having a Universal Genius is that other contemporaries - often very capable- are reduced to chumps.

    Nobody thinks they’re chumps, but neither Jonson nor Marlowe has had the influence of Shakespeare. He has the position in English literature of Pushkin in Russian and Cervantes in Spanish literature.

    He has the same sort of lingering presence in English writing since somewhat after his own time as Pope has in the writing of the eighteenth century.

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  • @reiner Tor
    Shakespeare is probably more popular among other peoples because they read him in translation. The Hungarian translation was for example the work of a great 19th century poet, and his Hungarian is probably the nicest sounding Hungarian, while of course easy to understand. The native English speakers have the problem that they simply don’t understand it. Which is probably the main reason that they usually cannot enjoy it.

    I understand and greatly enjoy Shakespeare, anyone bringing up De Vere is a crank. Shakespeare deserves his reputation.

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  • @DFH

    The Hungarian translation was for example the work of a great 19th century poet, and his Hungarian is probably the nicest sounding Hungarian, while of course easy to understand
     
    That's interesting. I've heard the same thing about the Russian translations of Walter Scott, and I imagine something similar applies to Schiller's translations of Shakespeare and explains their popularity.

    Except Scott was popular everywhere.

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  • @Silva
    Shortly after that photo, the photographer's head blew up.

    LOL! Or he caught on fire!

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  • @melanf

    Saddam had a general who looked like an Irishman. Complete with extremely white skin and he was a redhead.
     
    Kurdish girl from Iraq
    http://newsru.co.il/pict/id/large/685475_20140816081217.jpg

    Shortly after that photo, the photographer’s head blew up.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    LOL! Or he caught on fire!
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  • @reiner Tor
    You probably have an IQ over 130, at worst 115. It’s very difficult to read for the bottom two thirds. It’s probably not even easy for you. I bet you missed more than you noticed, for example there must have been lots of phrases you misunderstood, or nuances you didn’t get, and probably it was way slower (i.e. less enjoyable) to read than if it was translated from early modern to modern English.

    I am not a native speaker, which immediately disqualifies me from reading it.

    ’t get, and probably it was way slower (i.e. less enjoyable) to read than if it was translated from early modern to modern English.

    I am not a native speaker, which immediately disqualifies me from reading it.

    This is very negative/depressing view, which I do not think is true.

    Some of the most famous readers of Shakespeare in its original English language versions – Pasternak, Borges, Ketcher – were not Englishmen.

    High-art should be something universal, which can be understood to men of all times and cultures.

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  • @The Big Red Scary

    I bet you missed more than you noticed, for example there must have been lots of phrases you misunderstood, or nuances you didn’t get, and probably it was way slower (i.e. less enjoyable) to read than if it was translated from early modern to modern English.
     
    Surely I must have missed something, since when I read Shakespeare now, some passages are a bit difficult, and footnotes can be helpful. But in my day (grumbles this old man) everyone read Romeo and Juliet in their high school English class. It's really not the difficult, so long as the spelling is modernized:

    But soft! What light through yonder window breaks?
    It is the east, and Juliet is the sun.
    Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon,
    Who is already sick and pale with grief,
    That thou, her maid, art far more fair than she.
    Be not her maid since she is envious.
    Her vestal livery is but sick and green,
    And none but fools do wear it. Cast it off!
    It is my lady. Oh, it is my love.
    Oh, that she knew she were!
    She speaks, yet she says nothing. What of that?
    Her eye discourses. I will answer it.—
    I am too bold. 'Tis not to me she speaks.
    Two of the fairest stars in all the heaven,
    Having some business, do entreat her eyes
    To twinkle in their spheres till they return.
    What if her eyes were there, they in her head?
    The brightness of her cheek would shame those stars
    As daylight doth a lamp. Her eye in heaven
    Would through the airy region stream so bright
    That birds would sing and think it were not night.
    See how she leans her cheek upon her hand.
    Oh, that I were a glove upon that hand
    That I might touch that cheek!

    I do not have such problems to understand this language.

    The metaphors used in poetry of all languages are quite constant. E.g. eyes – stars.

    The issue is whether people are used to reading poetry or prose.

    For Shakespeare, the metaphor-dense language is poetry, and needs to be read slowly as poetry (and becomes very difficult to understand when heard rapidly spoken by actors in theatre).

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Not entirely so-- take the original of Khayyam's "a loaf of bread", etc. verse, or some of the established metaphors of the ancient Greeks: the "wine-dark sea" for instance.
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  • @melanf

    You made a similarly sweeping statement in another thread, claiming that “no one” in Russia watches Tarkovsky films. That claim was easily disproven by a few minutes of searching around on Kinopoisk,
     
    Search in Yandex:
    Tarkovsky "Andrew Rublev" 36 thousand results;
    Gayday "Ivan Vasilievich changes profession" 53 million results;
    Danelia "Don't Grieve" 4 million;
    Eisenstein "Alexander Nevsky" 25 million

    In Russia, almost no one is interested in Tarkovsky

    Tarkovsky was still very popular in our parents’ generation.

    Nowadays, people are developing shorter attention spans – which is impacted by modern communications technology -, and watching his films becomes painful for contemporary people who are used to whatsapp and youtube.

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  • @neutral
    The exception does not make the rule however, Kurds are not white as most do not look like that. The same applies to jews and using Scarlet Johansen as the example.

    The exception does not make the rule however, Kurds are not white as most do not look like that. The same applies to jews and using Scarlet Johansen as the example.

    Plenty of Jews – if you walk around in Israel – look like Northern European peasants, with even a lot with stereotypical unrefined, peasant faces. That’s somewhere like 10%-20%. While another over half look like Arabs.

    The problem (including for Jews themselves) is using a multinational population, bound by ancient religious heritage, as a nationality.

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    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    Are class differences usually expressed in facial features? What does a stereotypical peasant look like?
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  • @reiner Tor
    Not browner than modern Greeks and Italians. Actually, Sicilians have a few percentage points of Sub-Saharan ancestry which they acquired during late antiquity. So they are slightly browner than they were at the time of the Emperor Augustus.

    Not browner than modern Greeks and Italians. Actually, Sicilians have a few percentage points of Sub-Saharan ancestry which they acquired during late antiquity. So they are slightly browner than they were at the time of the Emperor Augustus.

    Italy was invaded by various people from central Europe and even Northern Europe, from the late Roman days.

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  • @reiner Tor
    I'm not sure about the 45 minutes. Last year once I spent 35-40 minutes under the Sun (in the tropics, and this was one of the first days in the year to go shirtless), and I got slightly pink that afternoon, but nothing more. Usually it takes just 5 more minutes for a full-blown sunburn to appear.

    I normally only go shirtless for 10-20 minutes initially, and even later rarely over 30 minutes. (Except for the face...)

    Are you sure about the 5-10 minutes? Are you sunbathing, or just walking around shirtless?

    You might have quite tough skin, which is a lucky blessing for the traveler.

    Although it depends on what the UV index is on the particular day/time as well.

    https://www.aimatmelanoma.org/prevention/uv-index/

    I’m sensitive to sunburn, but I know there are people who are more sensitive than me.

    I know a girl who was sitting in outdoors cafe for lunch, for less than an hour, in Russian summer (UV index is never more than around 8 in Russia), and got sunburn all over her scalp, underneath her hair – even though she has long hair (her face was only ok because she was wearing makeup).

    I’ve never got sunburn underneath my hair (how do you even defend against that – rubbing sunscreen on your hair?).

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    I assume you mean the Germanics? Tacticus, who is generally positive about them, specifically notes their scarcity of metal.

    There is not even any great abundance of iron, as may be inferred from the character of their weapons. Only a very few use swords or lances. The spears that they carry — frameae is the native word — have short and narrow heads, but are so sharp and easy to handle, that the same weapon serves at need for close or distant fighting. The horseman asks no more than his shield and spear, but the infantry have also javelins to shower, several per man, and can hurl them to a great distance; for they are either naked or only lightly clad in their cloaks. There is nothing ostentatious in their turn-out. Only the shields are picked out with carefully selected colours. Few have breastplates; only here and there will you see a helmet of metal or hide
     
    If Roman records are to be believed, they produced an average annual output of 80k tons of iron, 15k tons of copper, and 80k tons of lead(which they probably should not have used for their piping) at their peak. Roman furnaces, while limited(they don't seem to have ever been able to make wootz), were able to forge steel in consistent, significant quantities.

    We don't have records for post-collapse production, but we do know that blacksmiths were using local materials and nonstandardized procedures. They definitely couldn't produce the quantity, and its dubious that they could produce the same quality.

    Yes. Germanics. It was a long time ago. It could even have referred to decorative metalwork but I seem to remember that it was about the history of technology. It seemed strange at the time.

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  • @melanf

    I admit I do not speak Russian, but based on my own knowledge, I am deeply sceptical of Pushkin’s genius.
     
    The fictitious genius of Russian literature is Leo Tolstoy. His unofficial name is"classic by mistake." Pushkin (unlike L. Tolstoy) is really popular. In particular, Pushkin's fairy tales are familiar to almost all children

    http://cultobzor.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/0230.jpg

    Goldilocks and the three bears? Tolstoy.

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  • @E
    "Andrei Rublyov" was never widely released, though (also, I get 188 thousand results for it, not 36). His film "Stalker" (тарковский сталкер) gets 12 million results on Yandex. Not that I'm particularly convinced that this is a perfect method for measuring such things... (Edit: yep, adding "-game" to the search narrows it to 126 thousand)

    I think a better method is to compare how many people rated the films on Kinopoisk.
    By that metric:
    Tarkovsky. Andrei Rublyov: 29 thousand
    Gayday. Ivan Vasilyevich Changes Profession: 322 thousand
    Danelia. Don't Grieve: 5 thousand
    Eisenstein. Aleksandr Nevsky: 9 thousand

    More like nobody watches Danelia and Eisenstein, amirite?

    Now let's compare those classics to a pathetic decade-old animated box-office failure with a 1.7/10 review score:
    Наша Маша и Волшебный орех: 12 thousand

    So... this makes it more significant than Eisenstein, right? Perhaps, except that people will still be watching Eisenstein decades from now long after that other travesty has been completely forgotten...

    Other Tarkovsky films:
    Ivan's Childhood: 20 thousand.
    Solaris: 36 thousand.
    Stalker: 51 thousand.
    Mirror: 19 thousand.

    So from the looks of it, Tarkovsky's only 10-20% as popular as the biggest Soviet comedy blockbusters like "Ivan Vasilyevich" (322 thousand), "Operation Y" (279 thousand), "Kidnapping, Caucasian Style" (228 thousand). On the other hand, his films match or exceed the popularity of Bondarchuk's "War and Peace" (19 thousand), the most expensive Soviet blockbuster film ever made.

    Other Tarkovsky films:
    Ivan’s Childhood: 20 thousand.
    Solaris: 36 thousand.
    Stalker: 51 thousand.
    Mirror: 19 thousand.

    So from the looks of it, Tarkovsky’s only 10-20% as popular as the biggest Soviet comedy blockbusters like “Ivan Vasilyevich” (322 thousand), “Operation Y” (279 thousand), “Kidnapping, Caucasian Style” (228 thousand). On the other hand, his films match or exceed the popularity of Bondarchuk’s “War and Peace” (19 thousand), the most expensive Soviet blockbuster film ever made.

    Building on this, I would add that those Gaidai films are extreme outliers. The number of ratings for modern box-office hits typically range in the 50 to 100 thousands. Some examples:

    Ёлки (highest grossing Russian film of 2010): 96,684 ratings
    Высоцкий. Спасибо, что живой (highest grossing Russian film of 2011): 65,081 ratings
    Сталинград (highest grossing of all releases in 2013): 67,501 ratings
    Вий 3D (highest grossing Russian film of 2014): 46,595 ratings
    Экипаж (highest grossing Russian film of 2016): 80,614 ratings
    Движение вверх (highest grossing of all releases in 2017): 68,457 ratings

    Soviet films tend to have fewer ratings still. Daneliya’s Афоня, the Soviet film that drew the largest audience in 1975, has 36,890 ratings, and Пираты ХХ века, the most popular film of 1979, a mere 9,363.

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  • @Dmitry
    It sounds like you are lucky, despite being ginger :)

    I start going red in what has seemed just 5-10 minutes on the beach in a subtropical latitude. That was before I remembering to get covered sunscreen. And even after wearing sunscreen, with skin peeling off days later. My mother has had even worse experiences in the Mediterranean - ending up looking like a burn victim.

    Relating to climate, I agree with your general point about toughness for sure. The extreme heat (and even humidity( you can adapt to with time, and it's mainly psychological (it's not like Africans experience it any differently, they just get accustomed).

    Likewise, temperatures which felt cold in October, start to feel warm in April - after a few months of winter.

    But sunburn is not psychological, and you either have the genetics to get a tan after sun-exposure or to go red and have your skin peel off.

    I’m not sure about the 45 minutes. Last year once I spent 35-40 minutes under the Sun (in the tropics, and this was one of the first days in the year to go shirtless), and I got slightly pink that afternoon, but nothing more. Usually it takes just 5 more minutes for a full-blown sunburn to appear.

    I normally only go shirtless for 10-20 minutes initially, and even later rarely over 30 minutes. (Except for the face…)

    Are you sure about the 5-10 minutes? Are you sunbathing, or just walking around shirtless?

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    • Replies: @Dmitry
    You might have quite tough skin, which is a lucky blessing for the traveler.

    Although it depends on what the UV index is on the particular day/time as well.
    https://www.aimatmelanoma.org/prevention/uv-index/

    I'm sensitive to sunburn, but I know there are people who are more sensitive than me.

    I know a girl who was sitting in outdoors cafe for lunch, for less than an hour, in Russian summer (UV index is never more than around 8 in Russia), and got sunburn all over her scalp, underneath her hair - even though she has long hair (her face was only ok because she was wearing makeup).

    I've never got sunburn underneath my hair (how do you even defend against that - rubbing sunscreen on your hair?).
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  • The UK made a communications error, and it opened the backdoor for Russian propagandists and their useful idiots to revive their nonsense conspiracy theories!

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  • @Singh
    They need to be Sanskritized to immunize them against the Afro bomb।।

    Afro bomb

    Hmmm…I don’t think I ever considered the resemblance with an afro – it’s uncanny really!

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxbBSHAH76_gS1Dh4ah82tCC3Mzh8SD9z64IDfeUb0Fiy3yq9-Tw

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  • @neutral
    Despite these graphs you still have the cuckservative Republicans willing to sell their kidneys to support Israel and the jews, it never crosses their minds who wants to take their 2nd Amendment away.

    They need to be Sanskritized to immunize them against the Afro bomb।।

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    • Replies: @Talha

    Afro bomb
     
    Hmmm...I don't think I ever considered the resemblance with an afro - it's uncanny really!
    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxbBSHAH76_gS1Dh4ah82tCC3Mzh8SD9z64IDfeUb0Fiy3yq9-Tw
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  • @reiner Tor
    Similar to the Paul Walker T-shirts and coffee mugs for Steve Sailer...

    Maybe on the back, with the “WWGB?” we can have small thumbnails of the faces of all the official Greasy-approved bangable women.

    We can release a new edition every year.

    Peace.

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    • Agree: reiner Tor
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  • @reiner Tor

    if your skin burns after five minutes in the sun.
     
    No one will get skinburn after five minutes. I need at least forty-five minutes even if it’s the first time that year, and I’m in the top whitest percentile of the population, being ginger.

    But modern people spend very little time in the sun, and they go there very suddenly in the middle of summer (or travel to the tropics in the middle of winter). I know that my head can survive at least a couple of hours under the Sun with very few chances to go to shades and then only for a few minutes, also without a hat or sunscreen, even in the summer around noon. And even my face gets relatively little chance to adapt to summer conditions, because I spend most of my days in an office or inside some other buildings.

    Given that probably most people spent a lot of time under the Sun already in winter or spring, their skins adapted much better than ours. It’s like we are vastly less fit or strong than our ancestors, should be little surprise that we are less able to withstand the summer sunshine at noon. By the way the winter is the same. Have you ever swam in icy water? It’s possible. With some practice you can get to almost an hour. But most people think it’s impossible to even spend a few minutes in, say, two-degree (Celsius) water.

    It sounds like you are lucky, despite being ginger :)

    I start going red in what has seemed just 5-10 minutes on the beach in a subtropical latitude. That was before I remembering to get covered sunscreen. And even after wearing sunscreen, with skin peeling off days later. My mother has had even worse experiences in the Mediterranean – ending up looking like a burn victim.

    Relating to climate, I agree with your general point about toughness for sure. The extreme heat (and even humidity( you can adapt to with time, and it’s mainly psychological (it’s not like Africans experience it any differently, they just get accustomed).

    Likewise, temperatures which felt cold in October, start to feel warm in April – after a few months of winter.

    But sunburn is not psychological, and you either have the genetics to get a tan after sun-exposure or to go red and have your skin peel off.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I'm not sure about the 45 minutes. Last year once I spent 35-40 minutes under the Sun (in the tropics, and this was one of the first days in the year to go shirtless), and I got slightly pink that afternoon, but nothing more. Usually it takes just 5 more minutes for a full-blown sunburn to appear.

    I normally only go shirtless for 10-20 minutes initially, and even later rarely over 30 minutes. (Except for the face...)

    Are you sure about the 5-10 minutes? Are you sunbathing, or just walking around shirtless?
    , @Lars Porsena
    Sun is an issue. Not all pale people burn on contact with it you know. I am myself quite pale if I stay out of it, but I can tan pretty damn bronze if I'm outside all summer. At least 97% northern euro DNA and red highlights.

    Funnily enough, I have an arab friend who only burns and can't tan.

    It was an issue with the Jomon in Japan for anthropologists. There are some accounts that they were nearly black and others that they were quite white, with anthropologists speculating both that might have been from australoid groups occupying Japan prior to the Japanese and also that might have been caucasoid. Both these theories were ostensibly wrong, they are asian.

    Apparently part of the issue though was lifestyle, the young ones would spend all day in a boat and turn quite dark. The children and the older ones who stayed out of the sun though were even paler than the Japanese.
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  • @reiner Tor
    You probably have an IQ over 130, at worst 115. It’s very difficult to read for the bottom two thirds. It’s probably not even easy for you. I bet you missed more than you noticed, for example there must have been lots of phrases you misunderstood, or nuances you didn’t get, and probably it was way slower (i.e. less enjoyable) to read than if it was translated from early modern to modern English.

    I am not a native speaker, which immediately disqualifies me from reading it.

    I bet you missed more than you noticed, for example there must have been lots of phrases you misunderstood, or nuances you didn’t get, and probably it was way slower (i.e. less enjoyable) to read than if it was translated from early modern to modern English.

    Surely I must have missed something, since when I read Shakespeare now, some passages are a bit difficult, and footnotes can be helpful. But in my day (grumbles this old man) everyone read Romeo and Juliet in their high school English class. It’s really not the difficult, so long as the spelling is modernized:

    But soft! What light through yonder window breaks?
    It is the east, and Juliet is the sun.
    Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon,
    Who is already sick and pale with grief,
    That thou, her maid, art far more fair than she.
    Be not her maid since she is envious.
    Her vestal livery is but sick and green,
    And none but fools do wear it. Cast it off!
    It is my lady. Oh, it is my love.
    Oh, that she knew she were!
    She speaks, yet she says nothing. What of that?
    Her eye discourses. I will answer it.—
    I am too bold. ‘Tis not to me she speaks.
    Two of the fairest stars in all the heaven,
    Having some business, do entreat her eyes
    To twinkle in their spheres till they return.
    What if her eyes were there, they in her head?
    The brightness of her cheek would shame those stars
    As daylight doth a lamp. Her eye in heaven
    Would through the airy region stream so bright
    That birds would sing and think it were not night.
    See how she leans her cheek upon her hand.
    Oh, that I were a glove upon that hand
    That I might touch that cheek!

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    • Replies: @Dmitry
    I do not have such problems to understand this language.

    The metaphors used in poetry of all languages are quite constant. E.g. eyes - stars.

    The issue is whether people are used to reading poetry or prose.

    For Shakespeare, the metaphor-dense language is poetry, and needs to be read slowly as poetry (and becomes very difficult to understand when heard rapidly spoken by actors in theatre).
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  • @The Big Red Scary
    More subjective than a study based on archaeological data, but also much more vivid, is the History of the Franks of St. Gregory of Tours. A stagnant but stable society, like the Roman Empire at its height, looks rather attractive compared to the most common ancient alternative.

    More subjective than a study based on archaeological data, but also much more vivid, is the History of the Franks of St. Gregory of Tours.

    I’ve yet to read that, but when I skimmed through it, I did get the impression that it involved many stories about interpersonal violence…and not just at the level of the Merovingian royals who were famous for their violent family disputes.
    Another striking contrast between Roman times and the early medieval period involves the general administration of justice…the Roman empire certainly contained a lot of cruelty, even in its (somewhat) Christianized late antique form, with all the slavery, judicial torture of the lower orders, sending offenders to forced labour in mines etc. But its judicial system was certainly more rational than such bizarre practices as the ordeal or judicial combat.

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  • @Singh
    Anatoly, it is time to turn Anti-Semetic।।

    https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-um351GGapao/WsQPRCbAGuI/AAAAAAAAFwM/lAZwJZkh2dU-y6vtBJpaFty98tPFH0cAACLcBGAs/s1600/nra.png

    Despite these graphs you still have the cuckservative Republicans willing to sell their kidneys to support Israel and the jews, it never crosses their minds who wants to take their 2nd Amendment away.

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    • Replies: @Singh
    They need to be Sanskritized to immunize them against the Afro bomb।।
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  • @reiner Tor
    OT

    I put it into the other thread, but I guess no one is reading it anymore, so I risk it repeating here:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-03/uk-authorities-unable-prove-novichok-nerve-agent-came-russia
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  • @Talha
    I love how that is a regularly recurring sub-thread; who would Greasy bang?

    LOL! Maybe we can come up with an official Unz.com T-shirt with site info on the front and simply “WWGB?” On the back...

    Similar to the Paul Walker T-shirts and coffee mugs for Steve Sailer…

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Maybe on the back, with the "WWGB?" we can have small thumbnails of the faces of all the official Greasy-approved bangable women.

    We can release a new edition every year.

    Peace.
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  • @melanf

    Saddam had a general who looked like an Irishman. Complete with extremely white skin and he was a redhead.
     
    Kurdish girl from Iraq
    http://newsru.co.il/pict/id/large/685475_20140816081217.jpg

    The exception does not make the rule however, Kurds are not white as most do not look like that. The same applies to jews and using Scarlet Johansen as the example.

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    • Agree: melanf
    • Replies: @Dmitry

    The exception does not make the rule however, Kurds are not white as most do not look like that. The same applies to jews and using Scarlet Johansen as the example.

     

    Plenty of Jews - if you walk around in Israel - look like Northern European peasants, with even a lot with stereotypical unrefined, peasant faces. That's somewhere like 10%-20%. While another over half look like Arabs.

    The problem (including for Jews themselves) is using a multinational population, bound by ancient religious heritage, as a nationality.
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  • @reiner Tor
    OT

    Persian woman alert!

    Greasy, would you bang Nasim Aghdam?

    I love how that is a regularly recurring sub-thread; who would Greasy bang?

    LOL! Maybe we can come up with an official Unz.com T-shirt with site info on the front and simply “WWGB?” On the back…

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    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Similar to the Paul Walker T-shirts and coffee mugs for Steve Sailer...
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  • OT

    I put it into the other thread, but I guess no one is reading it anymore, so I risk it repeating here:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-03/uk-authorities-unable-prove-novichok-nerve-agent-came-russia

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Perhaps of interest:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-03/russia-demands-uk-apologize-after-scientists-stunning-admission-about-skripal
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  • OT

    Persian woman alert!

    Greasy, would you bang Nasim Aghdam?

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    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
    I love how that is a regularly recurring sub-thread; who would Greasy bang?

    LOL! Maybe we can come up with an official Unz.com T-shirt with site info on the front and simply “WWGB?” On the back...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • E says:
    @melanf

    You made a similarly sweeping statement in another thread, claiming that “no one” in Russia watches Tarkovsky films. That claim was easily disproven by a few minutes of searching around on Kinopoisk,
     
    Search in Yandex:
    Tarkovsky "Andrew Rublev" 36 thousand results;
    Gayday "Ivan Vasilievich changes profession" 53 million results;
    Danelia "Don't Grieve" 4 million;
    Eisenstein "Alexander Nevsky" 25 million

    In Russia, almost no one is interested in Tarkovsky

    “Andrei Rublyov” was never widely released, though (also, I get 188 thousand results for it, not 36). His film “Stalker” (тарковский сталкер) gets 12 million results on Yandex. Not that I’m particularly convinced that this is a perfect method for measuring such things… (Edit: yep, adding “-game” to the search narrows it to 126 thousand)

    I think a better method is to compare how many people rated the films on Kinopoisk.
    By that metric:
    Tarkovsky. Andrei Rublyov: 29 thousand
    Gayday. Ivan Vasilyevich Changes Profession: 322 thousand
    Danelia. Don’t Grieve: 5 thousand
    Eisenstein. Aleksandr Nevsky: 9 thousand

    More like nobody watches Danelia and Eisenstein, amirite?

    Now let’s compare those classics to a pathetic decade-old animated box-office failure with a 1.7/10 review score:
    Наша Маша и Волшебный орех: 12 thousand

    So… this makes it more significant than Eisenstein, right? Perhaps, except that people will still be watching Eisenstein decades from now long after that other travesty has been completely forgotten…

    Other Tarkovsky films:
    Ivan’s Childhood: 20 thousand.
    Solaris: 36 thousand.
    Stalker: 51 thousand.
    Mirror: 19 thousand.

    So from the looks of it, Tarkovsky’s only 10-20% as popular as the biggest Soviet comedy blockbusters like “Ivan Vasilyevich” (322 thousand), “Operation Y” (279 thousand), “Kidnapping, Caucasian Style” (228 thousand). On the other hand, his films match or exceed the popularity of Bondarchuk’s “War and Peace” (19 thousand), the most expensive Soviet blockbuster film ever made.

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    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    Other Tarkovsky films:
    Ivan’s Childhood: 20 thousand.
    Solaris: 36 thousand.
    Stalker: 51 thousand.
    Mirror: 19 thousand.

    So from the looks of it, Tarkovsky’s only 10-20% as popular as the biggest Soviet comedy blockbusters like “Ivan Vasilyevich” (322 thousand), “Operation Y” (279 thousand), “Kidnapping, Caucasian Style” (228 thousand). On the other hand, his films match or exceed the popularity of Bondarchuk’s “War and Peace” (19 thousand), the most expensive Soviet blockbuster film ever made.
     
    Building on this, I would add that those Gaidai films are extreme outliers. The number of ratings for modern box-office hits typically range in the 50 to 100 thousands. Some examples:

    Ёлки (highest grossing Russian film of 2010): 96,684 ratings
    Высоцкий. Спасибо, что живой (highest grossing Russian film of 2011): 65,081 ratings
    Сталинград (highest grossing of all releases in 2013): 67,501 ratings
    Вий 3D (highest grossing Russian film of 2014): 46,595 ratings
    Экипаж (highest grossing Russian film of 2016): 80,614 ratings
    Движение вверх (highest grossing of all releases in 2017): 68,457 ratings

    Soviet films tend to have fewer ratings still. Daneliya's Афоня, the Soviet film that drew the largest audience in 1975, has 36,890 ratings, and Пираты ХХ века, the most popular film of 1979, a mere 9,363.
    , @melanf

    I think a better method is to compare how many people rated the films on Kinopoisk.
    By that metric:
    Tarkovsky. Andrei Rublyov: 29 thousand
    Gayday. Ivan Vasilyevich Changes Profession: 322 thousand
    Danelia. Don’t Grieve: 5 thousand
    Eisenstein. Aleksandr Nevsky: 9 thousand
     
    Kinopoisk-site to search for rare films, this data is irrelevant.

    Yandex search
    Tarkovsky films:
    Ivan's Childhood: 33 thousand.
    Andrey Rublev: 36 thousand. (you must enter Yandex in the search field «Тарковский Андрей Рублев»)
    Nostalgia: 66 thousand results

    The exceptions are:
    Solaris: 274 thousand.
    Stalker: 13 million.
    Mirror: 15 million

    However, Stalker is a series of books and computer games (not related to Tarkovsky)
    http://stalkerportaal.ru/_pu/0/00331247.jpg

    Mirror is a film festival of the same name, Solaris is a book by Stanislav Lем. That is, these results are not related to Tarkovsky. If we evaluate Tarkovsky's own achievements in Yandex, Tarkovsky's films lose to popular Soviet films by about three orders of magnitude.
    For example "amphibian Man"
    http://cdn.fishki.net/upload/post/201412/19/1356651/1_118669.jpg

    - 61 million results in Yandex

    This is easily seen in Russia – popular films are used as the source of memes, visuals, quotes,

    http://alive-ua.com/uploads/posts/2013-01/1357247702_33.jpg


    etc. These quotes are clear to everyone ("Ja, ja, Kemska volost!"- meme from "Ivan Vasilyevich" 1 million results in Yandex; "кто с мечом к нам придет от меча и погибнет" - meme from "Alexander Nevsky" 72 million results in Yandex).
    On the contrary for 99% of the population of Russian, Tarkovsky's films unknown and uninteresting. When (rarely) Tarkovsky's films are shown on TV, the average Russian viewer switches the TV.
    There is a sect of "intellegencia" in which Tarkovsky is the object of worship. When this sect dies out, Tarkovsky will finally turn into a dead fossil known only to film historians.

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  • Many Muslim accomplishment come from Medieval Persia, but Persians are considered white or brown? There is not a clear “race border” in ME.

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  • Anatoly, it is time to turn Anti-Semetic।।

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    • Replies: @neutral
    Despite these graphs you still have the cuckservative Republicans willing to sell their kidneys to support Israel and the jews, it never crosses their minds who wants to take their 2nd Amendment away.
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  • @Dmitry
    It's true there was and still is variety - with some blonde and pale people surviving in these regions.

    But overall, living in Middle East and Mediterranean would be badly adapted if your skin burns after five minutes in the sun.

    The idea that Mediterranean and Middle Eastern people were lighter in the past than they are today - it's not something particularly convincing, and perhaps even the reverse for some countries (i.e. Italy and Israel).

    In actual murals, as opposed to sculptures who were designed to be painted - Ancient peoples, e.g. the Etruscans. (Really don't look any lighter than modern Greeks, Spanish, Italians you will see on your holidays today - and even with this stronger skin the sun is still intolerable in those regions, although paler people can still exist in them, it's not the majority.)


    https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/09/05/28/87/arcadia.jpg

    http://www.tarquinia-cerveteri.it/upload/images/visuals/Visual_TC_Tarquinia.jpg

    http://www.romafu.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/419041_606117496072688_420419456_n-765x415.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/236x/04/7d/e3/047de3d7bb0ed5669ff9577baedc3909--ancient-greek-ancient-art.jpg

    if your skin burns after five minutes in the sun.

    No one will get skinburn after five minutes. I need at least forty-five minutes even if it’s the first time that year, and I’m in the top whitest percentile of the population, being ginger.

    But modern people spend very little time in the sun, and they go there very suddenly in the middle of summer (or travel to the tropics in the middle of winter). I know that my head can survive at least a couple of hours under the Sun with very few chances to go to shades and then only for a few minutes, also without a hat or sunscreen, even in the summer around noon. And even my face gets relatively little chance to adapt to summer conditions, because I spend most of my days in an office or inside some other buildings.

    Given that probably most people spent a lot of time under the Sun already in winter or spring, their skins adapted much better than ours. It’s like we are vastly less fit or strong than our ancestors, should be little surprise that we are less able to withstand the summer sunshine at noon. By the way the winter is the same. Have you ever swam in icy water? It’s possible. With some practice you can get to almost an hour. But most people think it’s impossible to even spend a few minutes in, say, two-degree (Celsius) water.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry
    It sounds like you are lucky, despite being ginger :)

    I start going red in what has seemed just 5-10 minutes on the beach in a subtropical latitude. That was before I remembering to get covered sunscreen. And even after wearing sunscreen, with skin peeling off days later. My mother has had even worse experiences in the Mediterranean - ending up looking like a burn victim.

    Relating to climate, I agree with your general point about toughness for sure. The extreme heat (and even humidity( you can adapt to with time, and it's mainly psychological (it's not like Africans experience it any differently, they just get accustomed).

    Likewise, temperatures which felt cold in October, start to feel warm in April - after a few months of winter.

    But sunburn is not psychological, and you either have the genetics to get a tan after sun-exposure or to go red and have your skin peel off.
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  • @The Big Red Scary
    There are some phrases that require explanation, but any intelligent native speaker should be comfortable reading Shakespeare and the "King James Bible", as a matter of self-respect. I've been doing so since childhood, and I'm far from a "universal genius".

    Beowulf is another story...

    You probably have an IQ over 130, at worst 115. It’s very difficult to read for the bottom two thirds. It’s probably not even easy for you. I bet you missed more than you noticed, for example there must have been lots of phrases you misunderstood, or nuances you didn’t get, and probably it was way slower (i.e. less enjoyable) to read than if it was translated from early modern to modern English.

    I am not a native speaker, which immediately disqualifies me from reading it.

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    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary

    I bet you missed more than you noticed, for example there must have been lots of phrases you misunderstood, or nuances you didn’t get, and probably it was way slower (i.e. less enjoyable) to read than if it was translated from early modern to modern English.
     
    Surely I must have missed something, since when I read Shakespeare now, some passages are a bit difficult, and footnotes can be helpful. But in my day (grumbles this old man) everyone read Romeo and Juliet in their high school English class. It's really not the difficult, so long as the spelling is modernized:

    But soft! What light through yonder window breaks?
    It is the east, and Juliet is the sun.
    Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon,
    Who is already sick and pale with grief,
    That thou, her maid, art far more fair than she.
    Be not her maid since she is envious.
    Her vestal livery is but sick and green,
    And none but fools do wear it. Cast it off!
    It is my lady. Oh, it is my love.
    Oh, that she knew she were!
    She speaks, yet she says nothing. What of that?
    Her eye discourses. I will answer it.—
    I am too bold. 'Tis not to me she speaks.
    Two of the fairest stars in all the heaven,
    Having some business, do entreat her eyes
    To twinkle in their spheres till they return.
    What if her eyes were there, they in her head?
    The brightness of her cheek would shame those stars
    As daylight doth a lamp. Her eye in heaven
    Would through the airy region stream so bright
    That birds would sing and think it were not night.
    See how she leans her cheek upon her hand.
    Oh, that I were a glove upon that hand
    That I might touch that cheek!
    , @Dmitry

    ’t get, and probably it was way slower (i.e. less enjoyable) to read than if it was translated from early modern to modern English.

    I am not a native speaker, which immediately disqualifies me from reading it.
     

    This is very negative/depressing view, which I do not think is true.

    Some of the most famous readers of Shakespeare in its original English language versions - Pasternak, Borges, Ketcher - were not Englishmen.

    High-art should be something universal, which can be understood to men of all times and cultures.

    , @Lars Porsena
    Have you tried? I think you are way overestimating how difficult it is to read Shakespeare's version of english. It's basically just like modern english, but with "thou" instead of you and "speaketh" instead of "speak".

    Now, middle english like Chaucer's Canterburry Tales is quite difficult to parse at all, incomprehensible in places, and old english like Beowulf may as well be dutch or something, it is a totally different language. Shakespeare's english though is almost just like the modern one with barely some verb conjugation differences.

    To wit:

    "Oh pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth, that I am meek and gentle with these butchers. Thou art the ruins of the greatest man that ever lived in the tide of times"

    Thou art - you are.

    Or,

    "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. For he that fights with me today shall be my brother, be he ne'er so vile, this day shall gentle his condition, and gentlemen in England now in bed shall think themselves accursed they were not here and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks that fought with us upon St. Crispin's day"

    Ne'er - never and whilst - while.

    "Thou callest me a dog before thou hast a reason, but since I am a dog beware my fangs"

    Thou - you, callest - called, and hast - had.

    Nothing from your writing on your comments, whether you are a native speaker or not, suggests you would not be able to parse the text.

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  • @German_reader
    There's that book by Bryan Ward-Perkins "The fall of Rome and the end of civilization" where he argues that material conditions and general living standards declined massively with the end of the Roman empire in large parts of Europe and reached similar levels again only in the 14th century.
    One can of course have a negative view of the Roman empire (for many different reasons...I assume you dislike it because of its supposed "race mixing"...whereas "anonymous coward" above seems to favor the Christian triumphalist narrative plus "human rights" so decline on a material level doesn't matter that much), but there's a good case imo that its downfall was accompanied by a massive reduction in economic complexity.

    More subjective than a study based on archaeological data, but also much more vivid, is the History of the Franks of St. Gregory of Tours. A stagnant but stable society, like the Roman Empire at its height, looks rather attractive compared to the most common alternative.

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  • @German_reader
    There's that book by Bryan Ward-Perkins "The fall of Rome and the end of civilization" where he argues that material conditions and general living standards declined massively with the end of the Roman empire in large parts of Europe and reached similar levels again only in the 14th century.
    One can of course have a negative view of the Roman empire (for many different reasons...I assume you dislike it because of its supposed "race mixing"...whereas "anonymous coward" above seems to favor the Christian triumphalist narrative plus "human rights" so decline on a material level doesn't matter that much), but there's a good case imo that its downfall was accompanied by a massive reduction in economic complexity.

    More subjective than a study based on archaeological data, but also much more vivid, is the History of the Franks of St. Gregory of Tours. A stagnant but stable society, like the Roman Empire at its height, looks rather attractive compared to the most common ancient alternative.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    More subjective than a study based on archaeological data, but also much more vivid, is the History of the Franks of St. Gregory of Tours.
     
    I've yet to read that, but when I skimmed through it, I did get the impression that it involved many stories about interpersonal violence...and not just at the level of the Merovingian royals who were famous for their violent family disputes.
    Another striking contrast between Roman times and the early medieval period involves the general administration of justice...the Roman empire certainly contained a lot of cruelty, even in its (somewhat) Christianized late antique form, with all the slavery, judicial torture of the lower orders, sending offenders to forced labour in mines etc. But its judicial system was certainly more rational than such bizarre practices as the ordeal or judicial combat.
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  • @reiner Tor

    I know Syrians that could pass for Irish if they wanted to but don’t feel the need to be called White.
     
    Saddam had a general who looked like an Irishman. Complete with extremely white skin and he was a redhead.

    Saddam had a general who looked like an Irishman. Complete with extremely white skin and he was a redhead.

    Kurdish girl from Iraq

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    • Replies: @neutral
    The exception does not make the rule however, Kurds are not white as most do not look like that. The same applies to jews and using Scarlet Johansen as the example.
    , @Silva
    Shortly after that photo, the photographer's head blew up.
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  • @reiner Tor
    Shakespeare is probably more popular among other peoples because they read him in translation. The Hungarian translation was for example the work of a great 19th century poet, and his Hungarian is probably the nicest sounding Hungarian, while of course easy to understand. The native English speakers have the problem that they simply don’t understand it. Which is probably the main reason that they usually cannot enjoy it.

    There are some phrases that require explanation, but any intelligent native speaker should be comfortable reading Shakespeare and the “King James Bible”, as a matter of self-respect. I’ve been doing so since childhood, and I’m far from a “universal genius”.

    Beowulf is another story…

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    You probably have an IQ over 130, at worst 115. It’s very difficult to read for the bottom two thirds. It’s probably not even easy for you. I bet you missed more than you noticed, for example there must have been lots of phrases you misunderstood, or nuances you didn’t get, and probably it was way slower (i.e. less enjoyable) to read than if it was translated from early modern to modern English.

    I am not a native speaker, which immediately disqualifies me from reading it.
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  • @German_reader
    Murray's list is just weird in some parts, unless I'm missing something it includes neither St Jerome (translator of the Vulgate version of the Bible) nor Gregory the Great. Whatever one thinks of Christianity, there can be little doubt that their writings (massive in volume) were vastly more influential for the course of human history than a few dozen love poems of a poet like Catullus.

    True, that’s a real problem with the method.

    Though on second thought, they didn’t actually produce anything original. I don’t know if they should be included in the significant literary figures or scientists lists.

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  • @Talha
    Totally agree here - but there is white as phenotype and White as some kind of racial classification (which seems to be a bit difficult to pin down). I know Syrians that could pass for Irish if they wanted to but don’t feel the need to be called White. If you listen to the second video I posted, starting at 6:30, you’ll notice the guy states that people in the US from MENA background have asked for a new classification other than White that has been historically assigned to them.

    I guess what I’m saying is; if Whites want to make White a Europeans-only club, that’s fine - nobody’s exactly going to be pounding on the doors for inclusion.

    Peace.

    I know Syrians that could pass for Irish if they wanted to but don’t feel the need to be called White.

    Saddam had a general who looked like an Irishman. Complete with extremely white skin and he was a redhead.

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    • Replies: @melanf

    Saddam had a general who looked like an Irishman. Complete with extremely white skin and he was a redhead.
     
    Kurdish girl from Iraq
    http://newsru.co.il/pict/id/large/685475_20140816081217.jpg
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  • @reiner Tor
    Okay, maybe not more embarrassing qualitatively, but there’s a huge quantity of further embarrassingly stupid stuff.

    The guy who first wrote about the Hungarian origins of Sumerians had a book with the title King Jesus, the Parthian Prince. As you now probably suspect, Parthians were also Hungarians.

    I really didn’t actually read these things, but I had the autistic tendency of debating these guys. Several books could be filled with their nonsense, and they have indeed filled hundreds of books with it. They often contradict each other (occasionally there are serious contradictions within just one book), but it doesn’t matter.

    What matters is that the Vatican-Habsburg-freemason-Bolshevik grand conspiracy decided to destroy Hungarians, and because Hungarians are indestructible, they went about by the somewhat roundabout way of convincing Hungarians that our most beautiful language (276.4% more expressive than the second best Japanese language) is related to the language of the Lapps. This destroyed our self-confidence, directly leading to the loss of the First World War and the Treaty of Trianon.

    Let me remark that such nonsense (there’s way more of it) was the product of the postwar era immigration. The book I linked was written in Argentina, for example. Hungarian nationalists in the 1930s were much much smarter (both the pro-Nazis and the Anglophiles).

    Genetic analysis will soon prove all of this correct

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  • @Dmitry
    Ancient Greeks and Romans were also quite brown.

    Not browner than modern Greeks and Italians. Actually, Sicilians have a few percentage points of Sub-Saharan ancestry which they acquired during late antiquity. So they are slightly browner than they were at the time of the Emperor Augustus.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Not browner than modern Greeks and Italians. Actually, Sicilians have a few percentage points of Sub-Saharan ancestry which they acquired during late antiquity. So they are slightly browner than they were at the time of the Emperor Augustus.

     

    Italy was invaded by various people from central Europe and even Northern Europe, from the late Roman days.
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  • @Swedish Family

    The fictitious genius of Russian literature is Leo Tolstoy. His unofficial name is”classic by mistake.” Pushkin (unlike L. Tolstoy) is really popular. In particular, Pushkin’s fairy tales are familiar to almost all children
     
    You made a similarly sweeping statement in another thread, claiming that "no one" in Russia watches Tarkovsky films. That claim was easily disproven by a few minutes of searching around on Kinopoisk, and I suspect this is also true of your Tolstoy claim.

    You made a similarly sweeping statement in another thread, claiming that “no one” in Russia watches Tarkovsky films. That claim was easily disproven by a few minutes of searching around on Kinopoisk,

    Search in Yandex:
    Tarkovsky “Andrew Rublev” 36 thousand results;
    Gayday “Ivan Vasilievich changes profession” 53 million results;
    Danelia “Don’t Grieve” 4 million;
    Eisenstein “Alexander Nevsky” 25 million

    In Russia, almost no one is interested in Tarkovsky

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    • Replies: @E
    "Andrei Rublyov" was never widely released, though (also, I get 188 thousand results for it, not 36). His film "Stalker" (тарковский сталкер) gets 12 million results on Yandex. Not that I'm particularly convinced that this is a perfect method for measuring such things... (Edit: yep, adding "-game" to the search narrows it to 126 thousand)

    I think a better method is to compare how many people rated the films on Kinopoisk.
    By that metric:
    Tarkovsky. Andrei Rublyov: 29 thousand
    Gayday. Ivan Vasilyevich Changes Profession: 322 thousand
    Danelia. Don't Grieve: 5 thousand
    Eisenstein. Aleksandr Nevsky: 9 thousand

    More like nobody watches Danelia and Eisenstein, amirite?

    Now let's compare those classics to a pathetic decade-old animated box-office failure with a 1.7/10 review score:
    Наша Маша и Волшебный орех: 12 thousand

    So... this makes it more significant than Eisenstein, right? Perhaps, except that people will still be watching Eisenstein decades from now long after that other travesty has been completely forgotten...

    Other Tarkovsky films:
    Ivan's Childhood: 20 thousand.
    Solaris: 36 thousand.
    Stalker: 51 thousand.
    Mirror: 19 thousand.

    So from the looks of it, Tarkovsky's only 10-20% as popular as the biggest Soviet comedy blockbusters like "Ivan Vasilyevich" (322 thousand), "Operation Y" (279 thousand), "Kidnapping, Caucasian Style" (228 thousand). On the other hand, his films match or exceed the popularity of Bondarchuk's "War and Peace" (19 thousand), the most expensive Soviet blockbuster film ever made.
    , @Dmitry
    Tarkovsky was still very popular in our parents' generation.

    Nowadays, people are developing shorter attention spans - which is impacted by modern communications technology -, and watching his films becomes painful for contemporary people who are used to whatsapp and youtube.
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  • Murray’s list is just weird in some parts, unless I’m missing something it includes neither St Jerome (translator of the Vulgate version of the Bible) nor Gregory the Great. Whatever one thinks of Christianity, there can be little doubt that their writings (massive in volume) were vastly more influential for the course of human history than a few dozen love poems of a poet like Catullus.

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    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    True, that’s a real problem with the method.

    Though on second thought, they didn’t actually produce anything original. I don’t know if they should be included in the significant literary figures or scientists lists.
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  • @Dmitry

    Totally agree here – but there is white as phenotype and White as some kind of racial classification (which seems to be a bit difficult to pin down). I know Syrians that could pass for Irish if they wanted to but don’t feel the need to be called White. If you listen to the second video I posted, starting at 6:30, you’ll notice the guy states that people in the US from MENA background have asked for a new classification other than White that has been historically assigned to them.

    I guess what I’m saying is; if Whites want to make White a Europeans-only club, that’s fine – nobody’s exactly going to be pounding on the doors for inclusion.

    Peace.
     
    Lol well I will state the very obvious below, just for some clarity purposes, but it depends completely where you want to live.

    In a country with a Northern latitude, it is physically better to be white as you are adapted for the climate and don't need as many vitamin D pills. And socially - you blend in with everyone else.

    There is also alternatively a social aspect also in some New World warmer countries (as in Australia, New Zealand, and parts of America) , where it is a country created by people from Northern latitude, and it is equally better to be white for social reasons to blend with the original settlers of those countries.

    And personally, I would prefer to live in one of these countries where I could blend in and not obviously a foreigner, at least until I speak - so I'm sure I would not be comfortable living in Japan, as a non-Japanese looking person, or even in Spain or Italy, as a non-Spanish or non-Italian looking person.

    But if you're in the Mediterranean, Middle East - any subtropical or tropical region, then it really does suck (on a basic physical level) to be pale. It is physically painful to be pale.

    I can tell you when you travel in Israel, you feel genuinely oppressed by the sun - and when you're in the 'Russian ghetto' in Israeli hinterlands, you see the Russian-speaking blonde people looking genuinely oppressed by the terrible sun (all of them hiding underneath Adidas baseball caps and factor 50 sunscreen, and diving desperately into the nearest covered and air-conditioned shopping malls).

    And as for contemplating your children in that climate, you kind of understand instinctually why the blonde olim in Israel are famous for dating the first brown, Moroccan that they meet in the country.

    And socially – you blend in with everyone else.

    This reminds me of Surkov dying his hair lighter, after which the media just speculated that he might be unhealthy and actually dying. Alternative explanation, that he is trying to emulate the Japanese style of male Jpop fans.

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  • @Dmitry

    Totally agree here – but there is white as phenotype and White as some kind of racial classification (which seems to be a bit difficult to pin down). I know Syrians that could pass for Irish if they wanted to but don’t feel the need to be called White. If you listen to the second video I posted, starting at 6:30, you’ll notice the guy states that people in the US from MENA background have asked for a new classification other than White that has been historically assigned to them.

    I guess what I’m saying is; if Whites want to make White a Europeans-only club, that’s fine – nobody’s exactly going to be pounding on the doors for inclusion.

    Peace.
     
    Lol well I will state the very obvious below, just for some clarity purposes, but it depends completely where you want to live.

    In a country with a Northern latitude, it is physically better to be white as you are adapted for the climate and don't need as many vitamin D pills. And socially - you blend in with everyone else.

    There is also alternatively a social aspect also in some New World warmer countries (as in Australia, New Zealand, and parts of America) , where it is a country created by people from Northern latitude, and it is equally better to be white for social reasons to blend with the original settlers of those countries.

    And personally, I would prefer to live in one of these countries where I could blend in and not obviously a foreigner, at least until I speak - so I'm sure I would not be comfortable living in Japan, as a non-Japanese looking person, or even in Spain or Italy, as a non-Spanish or non-Italian looking person.

    But if you're in the Mediterranean, Middle East - any subtropical or tropical region, then it really does suck (on a basic physical level) to be pale. It is physically painful to be pale.

    I can tell you when you travel in Israel, you feel genuinely oppressed by the sun - and when you're in the 'Russian ghetto' in Israeli hinterlands, you see the Russian-speaking blonde people looking genuinely oppressed by the terrible sun (all of them hiding underneath Adidas baseball caps and factor 50 sunscreen, and diving desperately into the nearest covered and air-conditioned shopping malls).

    And as for contemplating your children in that climate, you kind of understand instinctually why the blonde olim in Israel are famous for dating the first brown, Moroccan that they meet in the country.

    And personally, I would prefer to live in one of these countries where I could blend in and not obviously a foreigner, at least until I speak

    Yes, totally makes sense.

    then it really does suck (on a basic physical level) to be pale. It is physically painful to be pale.

    LOL! Very true. I remember we went on a trip to Egypt with my Swedish mother-in-law and not very far south either – just stayed along the Mediterranean coast like Alexandria (and I think Port Said, it was a while back) and think we only went as far south as Mansoura. Anyway, the poor lady, she basically stayed in the hotel room as much as she could with the AC cranked to 65 degrees! My wife is younger so she could do a little better.

    Peace.

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  • @Jaakko Raipala
    Being classified as white is a severe disadvantage in university admissions and the like in the United States so obviously no one wants to be white if they can get away with another classification. Back in the days of segregation when being classified as white was actually an advantage Middle Easterners of course wanted to be white.

    If the United States were to have a white nationalist revolution that produced pro-white ruling classes, there would of course immediately be a pounding of the doors for inclusion into the white club. That's just the way humans work.

    Yeah, I’ll agree there – people would likely try if it conferred some sort of material advantage.

    At this point, I see no reason for people to.

    Peace.

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  • @Talha
    Totally agree here - but there is white as phenotype and White as some kind of racial classification (which seems to be a bit difficult to pin down). I know Syrians that could pass for Irish if they wanted to but don’t feel the need to be called White. If you listen to the second video I posted, starting at 6:30, you’ll notice the guy states that people in the US from MENA background have asked for a new classification other than White that has been historically assigned to them.

    I guess what I’m saying is; if Whites want to make White a Europeans-only club, that’s fine - nobody’s exactly going to be pounding on the doors for inclusion.

    Peace.

    Totally agree here – but there is white as phenotype and White as some kind of racial classification (which seems to be a bit difficult to pin down). I know Syrians that could pass for Irish if they wanted to but don’t feel the need to be called White. If you listen to the second video I posted, starting at 6:30, you’ll notice the guy states that people in the US from MENA background have asked for a new classification other than White that has been historically assigned to them.

    I guess what I’m saying is; if Whites want to make White a Europeans-only club, that’s fine – nobody’s exactly going to be pounding on the doors for inclusion.

    Peace.

    Lol well I will state the very obvious below, just for some clarity purposes, but it depends completely where you want to live.

    In a country with a Northern latitude, it is physically better to be white as you are adapted for the climate and don’t need as many vitamin D pills. And socially – you blend in with everyone else.

    There is also alternatively a social aspect also in some New World warmer countries (as in Australia, New Zealand, and parts of America) , where it is a country created by people from Northern latitude, and it is equally better to be white for social reasons to blend with the original settlers of those countries.

    And personally, I would prefer to live in one of these countries where I could blend in and not obviously a foreigner, at least until I speak – so I’m sure I would not be comfortable living in Japan, as a non-Japanese looking person, or even in Spain or Italy, as a non-Spanish or non-Italian looking person.

    But if you’re in the Mediterranean, Middle East – any subtropical or tropical region, then it really does suck (on a basic physical level) to be pale. It is physically painful to be pale.

    I can tell you when you travel in Israel, you feel genuinely oppressed by the sun – and when you’re in the ‘Russian ghetto’ in Israeli hinterlands, you see the Russian-speaking blonde people looking genuinely oppressed by the terrible sun (all of them hiding underneath Adidas baseball caps and factor 50 sunscreen, and diving desperately into the nearest covered and air-conditioned shopping malls).

    And as for contemplating your children in that climate, you kind of understand instinctually why the blonde olim in Israel are famous for dating the first brown, Moroccan that they meet in the country.

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    • Replies: @Talha

    And personally, I would prefer to live in one of these countries where I could blend in and not obviously a foreigner, at least until I speak
     
    Yes, totally makes sense.

    then it really does suck (on a basic physical level) to be pale. It is physically painful to be pale.
     
    LOL! Very true. I remember we went on a trip to Egypt with my Swedish mother-in-law and not very far south either - just stayed along the Mediterranean coast like Alexandria (and I think Port Said, it was a while back) and think we only went as far south as Mansoura. Anyway, the poor lady, she basically stayed in the hotel room as much as she could with the AC cranked to 65 degrees! My wife is younger so she could do a little better.

    Peace.

    , @Dmitry

    And socially – you blend in with everyone else.

     

    This reminds me of Surkov dying his hair lighter, after which the media just speculated that he might be unhealthy and actually dying. Alternative explanation, that he is trying to emulate the Japanese style of male Jpop fans.


    https://uznayvse.ru/images/content/2017/8/uzn_15030454646.jpg
    https://cdn.img.inosmi.ru/images/19151/26/191512631.jpg
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  • @Talha
    Totally agree here - but there is white as phenotype and White as some kind of racial classification (which seems to be a bit difficult to pin down). I know Syrians that could pass for Irish if they wanted to but don’t feel the need to be called White. If you listen to the second video I posted, starting at 6:30, you’ll notice the guy states that people in the US from MENA background have asked for a new classification other than White that has been historically assigned to them.

    I guess what I’m saying is; if Whites want to make White a Europeans-only club, that’s fine - nobody’s exactly going to be pounding on the doors for inclusion.

    Peace.

    Being classified as white is a severe disadvantage in university admissions and the like in the United States so obviously no one wants to be white if they can get away with another classification. Back in the days of segregation when being classified as white was actually an advantage Middle Easterners of course wanted to be white.

    If the United States were to have a white nationalist revolution that produced pro-white ruling classes, there would of course immediately be a pounding of the doors for inclusion into the white club. That’s just the way humans work.

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    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Talha
    Yeah, I’ll agree there - people would likely try if it conferred some sort of material advantage.

    At this point, I see no reason for people to.

    Peace.
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  • @Dmitry

    I’m not really sure they are interested in being labeled such – I’ve been around plenty of people from MENA and it’s fairly obvious that fair skin and light colored features are generally prized, but I’ve never heard one of them want to be labelled “White” – even though some could easily pass. I mean, I’m from Pakistan and people think I’m Mediterranean due to my features (in fact, most Pakistanis when they first meet me think I’m North African or Persian or something). At UCLA, Mexicans and Jews used to approach me thinking I was one of them.

    If Whites (don’t know if that means just Europeans or what exactly) want to exclude others from their little club, I think most people are fine with it – at least I am.

    Peace.
     
    It depends on the latitude where you are living.

    If you are in a Northern region, then it's great to be white - likely due to vitamin D synthesis.

    But if you are in a Mediterranean, subtropical region, or tropical region - it is better to have higher melanin content.

    Totally agree here – but there is white as phenotype and White as some kind of racial classification (which seems to be a bit difficult to pin down). I know Syrians that could pass for Irish if they wanted to but don’t feel the need to be called White. If you listen to the second video I posted, starting at 6:30, you’ll notice the guy states that people in the US from MENA background have asked for a new classification other than White that has been historically assigned to them.

    I guess what I’m saying is; if Whites want to make White a Europeans-only club, that’s fine – nobody’s exactly going to be pounding on the doors for inclusion.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    Being classified as white is a severe disadvantage in university admissions and the like in the United States so obviously no one wants to be white if they can get away with another classification. Back in the days of segregation when being classified as white was actually an advantage Middle Easterners of course wanted to be white.

    If the United States were to have a white nationalist revolution that produced pro-white ruling classes, there would of course immediately be a pounding of the doors for inclusion into the white club. That's just the way humans work.
    , @Dmitry

    Totally agree here – but there is white as phenotype and White as some kind of racial classification (which seems to be a bit difficult to pin down). I know Syrians that could pass for Irish if they wanted to but don’t feel the need to be called White. If you listen to the second video I posted, starting at 6:30, you’ll notice the guy states that people in the US from MENA background have asked for a new classification other than White that has been historically assigned to them.

    I guess what I’m saying is; if Whites want to make White a Europeans-only club, that’s fine – nobody’s exactly going to be pounding on the doors for inclusion.

    Peace.
     
    Lol well I will state the very obvious below, just for some clarity purposes, but it depends completely where you want to live.

    In a country with a Northern latitude, it is physically better to be white as you are adapted for the climate and don't need as many vitamin D pills. And socially - you blend in with everyone else.

    There is also alternatively a social aspect also in some New World warmer countries (as in Australia, New Zealand, and parts of America) , where it is a country created by people from Northern latitude, and it is equally better to be white for social reasons to blend with the original settlers of those countries.

    And personally, I would prefer to live in one of these countries where I could blend in and not obviously a foreigner, at least until I speak - so I'm sure I would not be comfortable living in Japan, as a non-Japanese looking person, or even in Spain or Italy, as a non-Spanish or non-Italian looking person.

    But if you're in the Mediterranean, Middle East - any subtropical or tropical region, then it really does suck (on a basic physical level) to be pale. It is physically painful to be pale.

    I can tell you when you travel in Israel, you feel genuinely oppressed by the sun - and when you're in the 'Russian ghetto' in Israeli hinterlands, you see the Russian-speaking blonde people looking genuinely oppressed by the terrible sun (all of them hiding underneath Adidas baseball caps and factor 50 sunscreen, and diving desperately into the nearest covered and air-conditioned shopping malls).

    And as for contemplating your children in that climate, you kind of understand instinctually why the blonde olim in Israel are famous for dating the first brown, Moroccan that they meet in the country.
    , @reiner Tor

    I know Syrians that could pass for Irish if they wanted to but don’t feel the need to be called White.
     
    Saddam had a general who looked like an Irishman. Complete with extremely white skin and he was a redhead.
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  • @neutral
    The "Dark Ages" was a propaganda term that became popular with Europes early proto liberals, they had this perception that the fall of the Roman Empire was some kind of huge castastrophe, this belief still persists with most people today. The reality is that the Roman empire was a vast stagnant entity with no new developments in technology, science or society, if one takes the period 1 AD to 400AD and compares it 400 AD to 1000 AD, then one will in fact find much more significant advances in agriculture, society and even science and technology in the so called "Dark Ages".

    This Oriental Institute video is cued to a series of charts that indicate that the end of the Roman Empire in the west meant harder lives for the typical person in Europe. (The first one seems to support your point with respect to timing, however.)

    The period after the fall in the west saw declines in metal smelting, shipping, building, meat eating, and personal security.

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  • @Talha
    I'm not really sure they are interested in being labeled such - I've been around plenty of people from MENA and it's fairly obvious that fair skin and light colored features are generally prized, but I've never heard one of them want to be labelled "White" - even though some could easily pass. I mean, I'm from Pakistan and people think I'm Mediterranean due to my features (in fact, most Pakistanis when they first meet me think I'm North African or Persian or something). At UCLA, Mexicans and Jews used to approach me thinking I was one of them.

    If Whites (don't know if that means just Europeans or what exactly) want to exclude others from their little club, I think most people are fine with it - at least I am.

    Peace.

    I’m not really sure they are interested in being labeled such – I’ve been around plenty of people from MENA and it’s fairly obvious that fair skin and light colored features are generally prized, but I’ve never heard one of them want to be labelled “White” – even though some could easily pass. I mean, I’m from Pakistan and people think I’m Mediterranean due to my features (in fact, most Pakistanis when they first meet me think I’m North African or Persian or something). At UCLA, Mexicans and Jews used to approach me thinking I was one of them.

    If Whites (don’t know if that means just Europeans or what exactly) want to exclude others from their little club, I think most people are fine with it – at least I am.

    Peace.

    It depends on the latitude where you are living.

    If you are in a Northern region, then it’s great to be white – likely due to vitamin D synthesis.

    But if you are in a Mediterranean, subtropical region, or tropical region – it is better to have higher melanin content.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Totally agree here - but there is white as phenotype and White as some kind of racial classification (which seems to be a bit difficult to pin down). I know Syrians that could pass for Irish if they wanted to but don’t feel the need to be called White. If you listen to the second video I posted, starting at 6:30, you’ll notice the guy states that people in the US from MENA background have asked for a new classification other than White that has been historically assigned to them.

    I guess what I’m saying is; if Whites want to make White a Europeans-only club, that’s fine - nobody’s exactly going to be pounding on the doors for inclusion.

    Peace.

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  • @Anonymous
    "For 600-400 BC, brown people’s achievements are very much understated. Until 600 BC “brown” (Mesopotamia+Egypt+Phoenicia) were the main creative force on the planet."

    As other posters have mentioned it is likely that the "brown people" inhabiting those places then and now were/are remnant populations who took over in later periods. I find it unlikely that Arabs as we know them would have been capable of creating those civilizations and when you look into, say, Mesopotamia/Sumer you find considerable evidence that there were likely Indo-European farmers who originally settled in the FC (as they did throughout the present day ME from Iran to India, as we know), who were then replaced by or fused within the "Sumerians" whose genetic origins are somewhat ambiguous (but who carried traces of the Indo-European culture they perhaps replaced and may have been hybrids of it), who were then overtaken by the Akkadians (semites (jews?)) who moved in from the northwest out of Assyria (iirc), took over and centralized power, tried to turn the decentralized region into an empire, and ultimately collapsed it in just a handful of decades. The Akkadian period was also known for an overall decline in culture and art.

    Lot of parallels in ancient Egypt as well. The more I study this stuff the more I seem to see the above trend, which obviously implies that many things attributed to these "brown people" are understandably misattributed since, well, they're still there, aren't they, so they must have been the original progenitors of what was there before.

    It’s true there was and still is variety – with some blonde and pale people surviving in these regions.

    But overall, living in Middle East and Mediterranean would be badly adapted if your skin burns after five minutes in the sun.

    The idea that Mediterranean and Middle Eastern people were lighter in the past than they are today – it’s not something particularly convincing, and perhaps even the reverse for some countries (i.e. Italy and Israel).

    In actual murals, as opposed to sculptures who were designed to be painted – Ancient peoples, e.g. the Etruscans. (Really don’t look any lighter than modern Greeks, Spanish, Italians you will see on your holidays today – and even with this stronger skin the sun is still intolerable in those regions, although paler people can still exist in them, it’s not the majority.)

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    if your skin burns after five minutes in the sun.
     
    No one will get skinburn after five minutes. I need at least forty-five minutes even if it’s the first time that year, and I’m in the top whitest percentile of the population, being ginger.

    But modern people spend very little time in the sun, and they go there very suddenly in the middle of summer (or travel to the tropics in the middle of winter). I know that my head can survive at least a couple of hours under the Sun with very few chances to go to shades and then only for a few minutes, also without a hat or sunscreen, even in the summer around noon. And even my face gets relatively little chance to adapt to summer conditions, because I spend most of my days in an office or inside some other buildings.

    Given that probably most people spent a lot of time under the Sun already in winter or spring, their skins adapted much better than ours. It’s like we are vastly less fit or strong than our ancestors, should be little surprise that we are less able to withstand the summer sunshine at noon. By the way the winter is the same. Have you ever swam in icy water? It’s possible. With some practice you can get to almost an hour. But most people think it’s impossible to even spend a few minutes in, say, two-degree (Celsius) water.
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  • @German_reader

    Tacticus, who is generally positive about them, specifically notes their scarcity of metal.
     
    That had clearly changed though by late antiquity, I don't have time to look for references now, but iirc there's a general consensus that regarding weapons technology the Germanic peoples could produce high-quality weapons by the 4th century. That's one of the reasons why their raids become so much more dangerous (together with others like larger and more permanent tribal confederations, increased familiarity with the Roman military system etc.).

    Well, German steel is now a byword for quality so at some point they clearly took it to seriously and very much made it their own, highly superior brand. The “maker’s mark” of various German cities is commonly found on late medieval armor and arms – apparently the mark was of such quality that some armorers even copied the mark in an early example of copyright infringement.

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  • Really doesn’t look any lighter than modern Greeks and Italians you see on your holidays today

    Probably true for Greeks and Italians (if anything Greeks might be fairer-skinned today than in antiquity because of the Slav admixture from the early medieval period). But as reiner tor has pointed out above, there’s evidence for non-trivial demographic change in the Near East as a result of the Arab conquests and the importation of black slaves.

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  • Anonymous[221] • Disclaimer says:
    @melanf

    when you look into, say, Mesopotamia/Sumer you find considerable evidence that there were likely Indo-European farmers who originally settled in the FC
     
    Sumerians were a separate language group (not Semites, nor Indo-Europeans), Acadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, and Phoenicians - were unambiguously Semites. As can be seen from the numerous images, these peoples had a typical middle Eastern appearance. Indo-Europeans were the Hittites, mitannians, and of course the Persians.

    “Sumerians were a separate language group (not Semites, nor Indo-Europeans)”

    Believe I indicated as much right after the part you quoted. The question is whether they were the first group there, and the significance of some of their purported linguistic and cultural ties to Indo-Europeans.

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  • @melanf

    Dark Ages were definitely a real thing (in Europe), recent attempts to revise this regardless.
     
    According to the Graph, the dark ages in Europe lasted from 200 to 1000 ad. This is a very unusual definition of " dark ages".

    For 600-400 BC, brown people's achievements are very much understated. Until 600 BC "brown" (Mesopotamia+Egypt+Phoenicia) were the main creative force on the planet.

    Ancient Greeks and Romans were also quite brown.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Not browner than modern Greeks and Italians. Actually, Sicilians have a few percentage points of Sub-Saharan ancestry which they acquired during late antiquity. So they are slightly browner than they were at the time of the Emperor Augustus.
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  • @Daniel Chieh
    I assume you mean the Germanics? Tacticus, who is generally positive about them, specifically notes their scarcity of metal.

    There is not even any great abundance of iron, as may be inferred from the character of their weapons. Only a very few use swords or lances. The spears that they carry — frameae is the native word — have short and narrow heads, but are so sharp and easy to handle, that the same weapon serves at need for close or distant fighting. The horseman asks no more than his shield and spear, but the infantry have also javelins to shower, several per man, and can hurl them to a great distance; for they are either naked or only lightly clad in their cloaks. There is nothing ostentatious in their turn-out. Only the shields are picked out with carefully selected colours. Few have breastplates; only here and there will you see a helmet of metal or hide
     
    If Roman records are to be believed, they produced an average annual output of 80k tons of iron, 15k tons of copper, and 80k tons of lead(which they probably should not have used for their piping) at their peak. Roman furnaces, while limited(they don't seem to have ever been able to make wootz), were able to forge steel in consistent, significant quantities.

    We don't have records for post-collapse production, but we do know that blacksmiths were using local materials and nonstandardized procedures. They definitely couldn't produce the quantity, and its dubious that they could produce the same quality.

    Tacticus, who is generally positive about them, specifically notes their scarcity of metal.

    That had clearly changed though by late antiquity, I don’t have time to look for references now, but iirc there’s a general consensus that regarding weapons technology the Germanic peoples could produce high-quality weapons by the 4th century. That’s one of the reasons why their raids become so much more dangerous (together with others like larger and more permanent tribal confederations, increased familiarity with the Roman military system etc.).

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Well, German steel is now a byword for quality so at some point they clearly took it to seriously and very much made it their own, highly superior brand. The "maker's mark" of various German cities is commonly found on late medieval armor and arms - apparently the mark was of such quality that some armorers even copied the mark in an early example of copyright infringement.
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  • @Philip Owen
    There are writers who say that the northerners metal work was better. None to hand.

    I assume you mean the Germanics? Tacticus, who is generally positive about them, specifically notes their scarcity of metal.

    There is not even any great abundance of iron, as may be inferred from the character of their weapons. Only a very few use swords or lances. The spears that they carry — frameae is the native word — have short and narrow heads, but are so sharp and easy to handle, that the same weapon serves at need for close or distant fighting. The horseman asks no more than his shield and spear, but the infantry have also javelins to shower, several per man, and can hurl them to a great distance; for they are either naked or only lightly clad in their cloaks. There is nothing ostentatious in their turn-out. Only the shields are picked out with carefully selected colours. Few have breastplates; only here and there will you see a helmet of metal or hide

    If Roman records are to be believed, they produced an average annual output of 80k tons of iron, 15k tons of copper, and 80k tons of lead(which they probably should not have used for their piping) at their peak. Roman furnaces, while limited(they don’t seem to have ever been able to make wootz), were able to forge steel in consistent, significant quantities.

    We don’t have records for post-collapse production, but we do know that blacksmiths were using local materials and nonstandardized procedures. They definitely couldn’t produce the quantity, and its dubious that they could produce the same quality.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    Tacticus, who is generally positive about them, specifically notes their scarcity of metal.
     
    That had clearly changed though by late antiquity, I don't have time to look for references now, but iirc there's a general consensus that regarding weapons technology the Germanic peoples could produce high-quality weapons by the 4th century. That's one of the reasons why their raids become so much more dangerous (together with others like larger and more permanent tribal confederations, increased familiarity with the Roman military system etc.).
    , @Philip Owen
    Yes. Germanics. It was a long time ago. It could even have referred to decorative metalwork but I seem to remember that it was about the history of technology. It seemed strange at the time.
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  • @reiner Tor
    It’s a reliable method to indicate what the literati (i.e. those who spend time actually reading the books) think over a longer period of time, and this is probably better than simple popularity - the latter would be won by bodice rippers.

    The entrenched unpopular writers are a phenomenon within the nation, but the writers were ranked using foreign sources only. Foreign writers are way less entrenched in education.

    It’s a reliable method to indicate what the literati (i.e. those who spend time actually reading the books) think over a longer period of time, and this is probably better than simple popularity – the latter would be won by bodice rippers.

    Ideally, perhaps, but this data would presumably be heavily skewed toward Soviet-era acquisitions (unless Russian libraries have a huge turnover, which I doubt), and what’s worse, it would be disproportionally heavy on authors with huge outputs over this time (Ilya Ehrenburg published over a hundred books) and light on those who didn’t (his friend Vasily Grossman managed maybe a tenth of that, depending on how you count).

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  • @DFH

    The Hungarian translation was for example the work of a great 19th century poet, and his Hungarian is probably the nicest sounding Hungarian, while of course easy to understand
     
    That's interesting. I've heard the same thing about the Russian translations of Walter Scott, and I imagine something similar applies to Schiller's translations of Shakespeare and explains their popularity.

    I’ve heard the same thing about the Russian translations of Walter Scott

    I remember reading or being told about some American writer that no one had ever heard of (science fiction perhaps) who was very popular in Czechoslovakia in Soviet times, and the explanation turned out to be a brilliant translator.

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    • Replies: @LH
    @for-the-record

    I remember reading or being told about some American writer that no one had ever heard of (science fiction perhaps) who was very popular in Czechoslovakia in Soviet times, and the explanation turned out to be a brilliant translator.

     

    It could be American poet Robinson Jeffers (1887 - 1962), translated to Czech language by poet Kamil Bednář (1912 - 1972).
    , @Bies Podkrakowski
    Robert Silverberg?
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  • @DFH
    My understanding is that the theory was invented by a Tamil, Devaneya Pavana, aiming to prove its superiority to Sanskrit. I've also seen it associated with lots of obviously silly claims like that Tamil is the oldest language in the world and about an ancient super-advanced ancient Tamil civilisation.

    He’s wrong. It’s Hungarians who are the most ancient civilization!

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  • @reiner Tor
    Shakespeare is probably more popular among other peoples because they read him in translation. The Hungarian translation was for example the work of a great 19th century poet, and his Hungarian is probably the nicest sounding Hungarian, while of course easy to understand. The native English speakers have the problem that they simply don’t understand it. Which is probably the main reason that they usually cannot enjoy it.

    The native English speakers have the problem that they simply don’t understand it. Which is probably the main reason that they usually cannot enjoy it.

    This is very true. The Swedish translations I have seen read like 19th century books.

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  • @DFH

    The Hungarian translation was for example the work of a great 19th century poet, and his Hungarian is probably the nicest sounding Hungarian, while of course easy to understand
     
    That's interesting. I've heard the same thing about the Russian translations of Walter Scott, and I imagine something similar applies to Schiller's translations of Shakespeare and explains their popularity.

    The drama is great. Shakespeare is way better than any other drama. (Though I heard some English dramas written at the same time were also very good.) But it needs to be written in an intelligible and nice language to make it enjoyable.

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  • @melanf

    I admit I do not speak Russian, but based on my own knowledge, I am deeply sceptical of Pushkin’s genius.
     
    The fictitious genius of Russian literature is Leo Tolstoy. His unofficial name is"classic by mistake." Pushkin (unlike L. Tolstoy) is really popular. In particular, Pushkin's fairy tales are familiar to almost all children

    http://cultobzor.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/0230.jpg

    The fictitious genius of Russian literature is Leo Tolstoy. His unofficial name is”classic by mistake.” Pushkin (unlike L. Tolstoy) is really popular. In particular, Pushkin’s fairy tales are familiar to almost all children

    You made a similarly sweeping statement in another thread, claiming that “no one” in Russia watches Tarkovsky films. That claim was easily disproven by a few minutes of searching around on Kinopoisk, and I suspect this is also true of your Tolstoy claim.

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    • Replies: @melanf

    You made a similarly sweeping statement in another thread, claiming that “no one” in Russia watches Tarkovsky films. That claim was easily disproven by a few minutes of searching around on Kinopoisk,
     
    Search in Yandex:
    Tarkovsky "Andrew Rublev" 36 thousand results;
    Gayday "Ivan Vasilievich changes profession" 53 million results;
    Danelia "Don't Grieve" 4 million;
    Eisenstein "Alexander Nevsky" 25 million

    In Russia, almost no one is interested in Tarkovsky
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  • @DFH
    My understanding is that the theory was invented by a Tamil, Devaneya Pavana, aiming to prove its superiority to Sanskrit. I've also seen it associated with lots of obviously silly claims like that Tamil is the oldest language in the world and about an ancient super-advanced ancient Tamil civilisation.

    Ah, ok, I didn’t know that, sounds like it’s rather suspect then. Thanks for the correction!

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  • @German_reader

    but left out the embarrassingly stupid parts.
     
    It could possibly get more stupid than "the original Hungarians came from the star system Sirius"???
    Kind of depressing and embarrassing how stupid nationalists often are.

    Okay, maybe not more embarrassing qualitatively, but there’s a huge quantity of further embarrassingly stupid stuff.

    The guy who first wrote about the Hungarian origins of Sumerians had a book with the title King Jesus, the Parthian Prince. As you now probably suspect, Parthians were also Hungarians.

    I really didn’t actually read these things, but I had the autistic tendency of debating these guys. Several books could be filled with their nonsense, and they have indeed filled hundreds of books with it. They often contradict each other (occasionally there are serious contradictions within just one book), but it doesn’t matter.

    What matters is that the Vatican-Habsburg-freemason-Bolshevik grand conspiracy decided to destroy Hungarians, and because Hungarians are indestructible, they went about by the somewhat roundabout way of convincing Hungarians that our most beautiful language (276.4% more expressive than the second best Japanese language) is related to the language of the Lapps. This destroyed our self-confidence, directly leading to the loss of the First World War and the Treaty of Trianon.

    Let me remark that such nonsense (there’s way more of it) was the product of the postwar era immigration. The book I linked was written in Argentina, for example. Hungarian nationalists in the 1930s were much much smarter (both the pro-Nazis and the Anglophiles).

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    • Replies: @dried peanuts
    Genetic analysis will soon prove all of this correct
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  • @reiner Tor
    Shakespeare is probably more popular among other peoples because they read him in translation. The Hungarian translation was for example the work of a great 19th century poet, and his Hungarian is probably the nicest sounding Hungarian, while of course easy to understand. The native English speakers have the problem that they simply don’t understand it. Which is probably the main reason that they usually cannot enjoy it.

    The Hungarian translation was for example the work of a great 19th century poet, and his Hungarian is probably the nicest sounding Hungarian, while of course easy to understand

    That’s interesting. I’ve heard the same thing about the Russian translations of Walter Scott, and I imagine something similar applies to Schiller’s translations of Shakespeare and explains their popularity.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    The drama is great. Shakespeare is way better than any other drama. (Though I heard some English dramas written at the same time were also very good.) But it needs to be written in an intelligible and nice language to make it enjoyable.
    , @for-the-record
    I’ve heard the same thing about the Russian translations of Walter Scott

    I remember reading or being told about some American writer that no one had ever heard of (science fiction perhaps) who was very popular in Czechoslovakia in Soviet times, and the explanation turned out to be a brilliant translator.
    , @Anon
    Except Scott was popular everywhere.
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  • @German_reader
    Is there some sort of nationalist background to that theory? If so, I was unaware of that.
    "Sun language theory"...lol, hadn't known about that, but doesn't surprise me Turks would come up with something like this.

    My understanding is that the theory was invented by a Tamil, Devaneya Pavana, aiming to prove its superiority to Sanskrit. I’ve also seen it associated with lots of obviously silly claims like that Tamil is the oldest language in the world and about an ancient super-advanced ancient Tamil civilisation.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    Ah, ok, I didn't know that, sounds like it's rather suspect then. Thanks for the correction!
    , @reiner Tor
    He’s wrong. It’s Hungarians who are the most ancient civilization!
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  • @reiner Tor
    Two criteria: people who died by 1950; writers based on foreign encyclopedias. So if foreigners don’t value your greatest national poet because he’s difficult to translate, then too bad. But there’d be no objective criterium on which to compare the relative worth of national poets. The only way to do that is through their effect on foreigners. It’s not a perfect method, because some writers have better translations than others, but you have to live with imperfections.

    Two criteria: people who died by 1950; writers based on foreign encyclopedias.

    Something like that, but not quite. It seems the criterion is that the participant must have been born no later than 1910.

    So if foreigners don’t value your greatest national poet because he’s difficult to translate, then too bad. But there’d be no objective criterium on which to compare the relative worth of national poets. The only way to do that is through their effect on foreigners. It’s not a perfect method, because some writers have better translations than others, but you have to live with imperfections.

    I would agree if this were a parlor game on a boozy Friday night, but since Karlin seems to plan basing parts of his book on this data, I think a more solid foundation is called for. My first thought was that he should just scrap the cultural figures altogether. The silliness just goes on and on (Bach ranked below Mozart and Beethoven — really? On whose authority?).

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  • utu says:

    The animus behind the myth of Dark Ages is anti-Christian (and more recently also anti-Muslim) and specifically anti-Catholic.

    https://strangenotions.com/gods-philosophers/
    The Christian Dark Age and Other Hysterical Myths
    The myth goes that the Greeks and Romans were wise and rational types who loved science and were on the brink of doing all kinds of marvelous things (inventing full-scale steam engines is one example that is usually, rather fancifully, invoked) until Christianity came along. Christianity then banned all learning and rational thought and ushered in the Dark Ages. Then an iron-fisted theocracy, backed by a Gestapo-style Inquisition, prevented any science or questioning inquiry from happening until Leonardo da Vinci invented intelligence and the wondrous Renaissance saved us all from Medieval darkness.

    A recent episode of Family Guy had Stewie and Brian enter a futuristic alternative world where, it was explained, things were so advanced because Christianity didn’t destroy learning, usher in the Dark Ages and stifle science. The writers didn’t see the need to explain what Stewie meant – they assumed everyone understood.

    The author of the above text also addresses graphs like the one produced by Kierkegaard based on arbitrary list form a popular book by author of dubious repute known for strong predilections and biases:

    It’s not hard to kick this nonsense to pieces, especially since the people presenting it know next to nothing about history and have simply picked up these strange ideas from websites and popular books. The assertions collapse as soon as you hit them with hard evidence. I love to totally stump these propagators by asking them to present me with the name of one – just one – scientist burned, persecuted, or oppressed for their science in the Middle Ages. They always fail to come up with any. They usually try to crowbar Galileo back into the Middle Ages, which is amusing considering he was a contemporary of Descartes. When asked why they have failed to produce any such scientists given the Church was apparently so busily oppressing them, they often resort to claiming that the Evil Old Church did such a good job of oppression that everyone was too scared to practice science. By the time I produce a laundry list of Medieval scientists – like Albertus Magnus, Robert Grosseteste, Roger Bacon, John Peckham, Duns Scotus, Thomas Bradwardine, Walter Burley, William Heytesbury, Richard Swineshead, John Dumbleton, Richard of Wallingford, Nicholas Oresme, Jean Buridan and Nicholas of Cusa – and ask why these men were happily pursuing science in the Middle Ages without molestation from the Church, my opponents usually scratch their heads in puzzlement at what just went wrong.

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    • Agree: Dan Hayes, dfordoom
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  • @Daniel Chieh
    Its pretty obvious that it was a fall simply considering the decline of metal tools: Roman metallurgy was highly advanced with huge bloomeries and it took hundreds of years and reurbanization before blacksmiths could replicate either in quality or quantity. Large projects would be impossible as well - the Empire's income vastly overshadowed post-collapse kingdoms until centralization in the Late Middle Ages.

    There are writers who say that the northerners metal work was better. None to hand.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I assume you mean the Germanics? Tacticus, who is generally positive about them, specifically notes their scarcity of metal.

    There is not even any great abundance of iron, as may be inferred from the character of their weapons. Only a very few use swords or lances. The spears that they carry — frameae is the native word — have short and narrow heads, but are so sharp and easy to handle, that the same weapon serves at need for close or distant fighting. The horseman asks no more than his shield and spear, but the infantry have also javelins to shower, several per man, and can hurl them to a great distance; for they are either naked or only lightly clad in their cloaks. There is nothing ostentatious in their turn-out. Only the shields are picked out with carefully selected colours. Few have breastplates; only here and there will you see a helmet of metal or hide
     
    If Roman records are to be believed, they produced an average annual output of 80k tons of iron, 15k tons of copper, and 80k tons of lead(which they probably should not have used for their piping) at their peak. Roman furnaces, while limited(they don't seem to have ever been able to make wootz), were able to forge steel in consistent, significant quantities.

    We don't have records for post-collapse production, but we do know that blacksmiths were using local materials and nonstandardized procedures. They definitely couldn't produce the quantity, and its dubious that they could produce the same quality.
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  • @German_reader

    This was one of the reasons for moving the Capital to Milan, which could be supplied from its own Po valley.
     
    As far as I know the main reason was military, to better deal with the incursions of barbarians who penetrated into Italy and carried away loot and captives (iirc Gallienus stationed a mobile cavalry force in Milan to respond to such raids).

    The British and North Gallic Grain supplies were very important because they supplied the army in Britain and along the Rhine.
     
    I admit that I don't know much about this, so I can't comment. But in any case, despite undoubted Romanization, the city system in Northern Gaul and Britain was underdeveloped when compared to Italy, southern Gaul (Gallia Narbonensis had been Roman already since the 2nd century BC), mediterranean Spain or Northern Africa.
    But anyway, those issues don't really affect my criticism of those graphs.

    I will disagree with you over the Roman Empire, but agree with you over the graphs. The latter seem highly subjective in content.

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    • Agree: German_reader
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  • @reiner Tor
    There is a retarded Hungarian nationalist myth that Sumerians were actually Hungarians. It turns out that the original Hungarians came from the star system Sirius, they have occupied Hungary since 50,000 (or two million?) years ago. Then they were all the nomads (at least the Scythians, Sarmatians, Huns, and Magyars), as well as the Sumerians. All the while being somehow related to the Japanese.

    I think I summarized the theory well, but left out the embarrassingly stupid parts.

    Wait – you left OUT the stupid parts??!! WOW!

    I hope Thomm’s not watching – he’s going to use this as ammo.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    You mean he's going to say the League of Women Voters made them do it?
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  • @Swedish Family

    There are certain things with which I’ve can quibble but overall, Murray’s HA has impressive levels of agreement with national lists of greats.

    E.g.,for Russian literature: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/most-eminent-russian-writers/
     
    Interesting post, but I lean toward agreeing with melanf, who wrote this about the Russian data set:

    “Relative shares of publications” is not a reliable indicator. Huge circulations have books from the school curriculum that students need to read because of the threat of punishment.
     

    It’s a reliable method to indicate what the literati (i.e. those who spend time actually reading the books) think over a longer period of time, and this is probably better than simple popularity – the latter would be won by bodice rippers.

    The entrenched unpopular writers are a phenomenon within the nation, but the writers were ranked using foreign sources only. Foreign writers are way less entrenched in education.

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    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    It’s a reliable method to indicate what the literati (i.e. those who spend time actually reading the books) think over a longer period of time, and this is probably better than simple popularity – the latter would be won by bodice rippers.
     
    Ideally, perhaps, but this data would presumably be heavily skewed toward Soviet-era acquisitions (unless Russian libraries have a huge turnover, which I doubt), and what's worse, it would be disproportionally heavy on authors with huge outputs over this time (Ilya Ehrenburg published over a hundred books) and light on those who didn't (his friend Vasily Grossman managed maybe a tenth of that, depending on how you count).
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  • @reiner Tor
    There is a retarded Hungarian nationalist myth that Sumerians were actually Hungarians. It turns out that the original Hungarians came from the star system Sirius, they have occupied Hungary since 50,000 (or two million?) years ago. Then they were all the nomads (at least the Scythians, Sarmatians, Huns, and Magyars), as well as the Sumerians. All the while being somehow related to the Japanese.

    I think I summarized the theory well, but left out the embarrassingly stupid parts.

    but left out the embarrassingly stupid parts.

    It could possibly get more stupid than “the original Hungarians came from the star system Sirius”???
    Kind of depressing and embarrassing how stupid nationalists often are.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Okay, maybe not more embarrassing qualitatively, but there’s a huge quantity of further embarrassingly stupid stuff.

    The guy who first wrote about the Hungarian origins of Sumerians had a book with the title King Jesus, the Parthian Prince. As you now probably suspect, Parthians were also Hungarians.

    I really didn’t actually read these things, but I had the autistic tendency of debating these guys. Several books could be filled with their nonsense, and they have indeed filled hundreds of books with it. They often contradict each other (occasionally there are serious contradictions within just one book), but it doesn’t matter.

    What matters is that the Vatican-Habsburg-freemason-Bolshevik grand conspiracy decided to destroy Hungarians, and because Hungarians are indestructible, they went about by the somewhat roundabout way of convincing Hungarians that our most beautiful language (276.4% more expressive than the second best Japanese language) is related to the language of the Lapps. This destroyed our self-confidence, directly leading to the loss of the First World War and the Treaty of Trianon.

    Let me remark that such nonsense (there’s way more of it) was the product of the postwar era immigration. The book I linked was written in Argentina, for example. Hungarian nationalists in the 1930s were much much smarter (both the pro-Nazis and the Anglophiles).
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  • @Daniel Chieh
    I thought that Shakesphere's contemporaries such as Thomas Middleton were quite accomplished and unfortunately not well known these days despite his work.

    You could say even more about Marlowe and Ben Johnson. The problem about having a Universal Genius is that other contemporaries – often very capable- are reduced to chumps.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Nobody thinks they're chumps, but neither Jonson nor Marlowe has had the influence of Shakespeare. He has the position in English literature of Pushkin in Russian and Cervantes in Spanish literature.

    He has the same sort of lingering presence in English writing since somewhat after his own time as Pope has in the writing of the eighteenth century.

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