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    So we hear from the blog that is not a blog that The Winds of Winter isn't going to be finished before HBO launches its sixth season this April and decidedly outpaces events in the books. This should not have come as a surprise and here is the graph - so far as I can...
  • Baelish is the strongest player in the game. He has no weaknesses.

    This is something of a minipeeve of mine but I actually disagree on Littlefinger’s genius.

    probably some spoilers

    Littlefinger has relied on pure dumb luck for his plans to move forwards a few too many times to be truly regarded as such. Several examples of this, but possibly the most glaring one by far is his “breakup” with Lysa Arryn. Had Sansa defected, or not played her part as convincingly as she did; had there been any other observers; had even the Lords of the Vale themselves been marginally more probing and intelligent, and it could have all fallen apart for him there and then – literally so, in fact, right through the Moon Door after Lysa.

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  • @Bao Jiankang
    Because Littlefinger loves her. And littlefinger realizes this is his weakness and marries her off for political gain. It's hard for him to do but he knows that it will benefit him in the long term. He marries her off the the Boltons because as sadistic as Roose his he isn't dumb enough to harm Sansa. As with Ramsay, littlefinger says in their first encounter "I don't know anything about you." And Ramsay says something along the lines of "ill take good care of her." Littlefinger made the inaccurate calculation of assuming Ramsay would be as pragmatic as his father.

    To add to my original comment.

    Baelish is the strongest player in the game. He has no weaknesses. Ned stark and jon snow fell to their honour. Daenarys is a child. Cersei misread the high sparrow because she was blinded by revenge. Ramsay is too sadistic, etc. The dornish king is strong but he is a minor character. A case could be made for Stannis having no weaknesses because who could blame him for trusting melisandre? She did after all assassinate someone with a vagina monster. Stannis made the cold hard decision that Baelish would make and sacrificed his daughter but it didnt work out for him. Tywin also had very little weaknesses but I guess you can’t really predict that your son would break out of prison and kill you. The only other player still alive that can potentially match Bealish is Varys but Bealish has outplayed him thus far.

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  • @Pseudonymic Handle
    What annoyed me was the Sansa plot that made no sense. By her marriage she legitimised the rule of the Boltons and Lannisters in the North while making things harder for Stannis. And why would Littlefinger save her from Cersei and her crazy aunt, suggesting that he even wanted her, just to dump her at the mercy of the Boltons?
    If this is what showrunners do without the books then this following season will be a mess. If this what GRRM plans to do now with the plots than the whole thing is going to be just a terrible waste of time and energy.

    Because Littlefinger loves her. And littlefinger realizes this is his weakness and marries her off for political gain. It’s hard for him to do but he knows that it will benefit him in the long term. He marries her off the the Boltons because as sadistic as Roose his he isn’t dumb enough to harm Sansa. As with Ramsay, littlefinger says in their first encounter “I don’t know anything about you.” And Ramsay says something along the lines of “ill take good care of her.” Littlefinger made the inaccurate calculation of assuming Ramsay would be as pragmatic as his father.

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    • Replies: @Bao Jiankang
    To add to my original comment.

    Baelish is the strongest player in the game. He has no weaknesses. Ned stark and jon snow fell to their honour. Daenarys is a child. Cersei misread the high sparrow because she was blinded by revenge. Ramsay is too sadistic, etc. The dornish king is strong but he is a minor character. A case could be made for Stannis having no weaknesses because who could blame him for trusting melisandre? She did after all assassinate someone with a vagina monster. Stannis made the cold hard decision that Baelish would make and sacrificed his daughter but it didnt work out for him. Tywin also had very little weaknesses but I guess you can't really predict that your son would break out of prison and kill you. The only other player still alive that can potentially match Bealish is Varys but Bealish has outplayed him thus far.
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  • I stopped reading the books after the second one. It was by then clear to me that he was just making it up as he goes, the individual books didn’t tell a cohesive story and the series probably would never finish. In other words: a complete waste of time.

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  • Heh. I started to read the first book about a dozen years ago, and read it halfway when I realized that the books in the series on’t stand on their own and I have to wait for decades for the conclusion. I abandoned the book immediately. Never regretted it.

    Incidentally, if you want to read a finished series similar in atmosphere to ASOIAF (battles for a crown; complicated morality; tons of viewpoint characters; rivers of blood and you never know who is going to live or die; fewer rapes though) but much better written I would recommend Maurice Druon’s The Accursed Kings. Plus, since it’s not fantasy but historical fiction, you’ll learn something about a fascinating period in French history.

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  • meh, at this point in time I don’t care about the books anymore. GRRM is just milking it, not for the money but the fame. discovery writer? more like original plan of 3 books got sidelined for more money and fame. and he is struggling to fill the content.

    I just want a conclusion for the series and be done with it. I would never read another book series till it is done, GRRM taught me a good lesson alright.

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  • What annoyed me was the Sansa plot that made no sense. By her marriage she legitimised the rule of the Boltons and Lannisters in the North while making things harder for Stannis. And why would Littlefinger save her from Cersei and her crazy aunt, suggesting that he even wanted her, just to dump her at the mercy of the Boltons?
    If this is what showrunners do without the books then this following season will be a mess. If this what GRRM plans to do now with the plots than the whole thing is going to be just a terrible waste of time and energy.

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    • Replies: @Bao Jiankang
    Because Littlefinger loves her. And littlefinger realizes this is his weakness and marries her off for political gain. It's hard for him to do but he knows that it will benefit him in the long term. He marries her off the the Boltons because as sadistic as Roose his he isn't dumb enough to harm Sansa. As with Ramsay, littlefinger says in their first encounter "I don't know anything about you." And Ramsay says something along the lines of "ill take good care of her." Littlefinger made the inaccurate calculation of assuming Ramsay would be as pragmatic as his father.
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  • The New York Times has a very long and detailed article titled Norway Offers Migrants a Lesson in How to Treat Women. Here's the primary issue: The statistics are pretty straightforward, and some are outlined in the article. This is a robust and replicated dynamic in Scandinavia; people of "migrant background" are over-represented in rape...
  • @Miguel Madeira
    "even if women on average lean more to the left"

    This is a general rule? Or it is an American eccentricity? I read somewhere that in UK women lean right (I don't know how is in PortugAL)

    White women (and men) in the United States vote predominantly
    Republican. Black women vote heavily Democratic, and Hispanic
    women predominantly Democratic. Hence the Republicans these
    days are often described as the “White party” and the Democrats,
    at least among the Sailerites, as the “coalition of the fringes”

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    NY Post: Migrants found guilty in brutal killing of British backpackers (and raping young wife). They’re from Burma. I have an idea for a good rule of thumb when it comes to allowing certain peoples into your country. Anyone from a fucked up country needs to look elsewhere. There is a reason why the lands they come from are fucked up. And the more of these types of people you let in the greater the societal devolution.

    Note to Donald Trump (who might be reading this on Unz.com0: feel free to use this line for another 15 days of attention while triggering brain aneurisms and cardiac issues among the old, white left. Also, consider tapping Razib to head the NIH.

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  • @Razib Khan
    Perhaps especially at higher levels of society, which matter more in the long run. In Europe, civil and ecclesiastic law ran counter to much tribal law,

    why do you think it matters more in the long run? are civil law systems that different from common law systems in terms of culture in practice? (since common law is organic it obviously has some influence that can be traced all the way back to the theodosian code and from intermediaries like canon law).

    From what I understand, a great deal of Sharia is actually based on pre-existing Arab tribal law,

    where did you understand this from? i'm not an expert on sharia, but since the greatest codifier of the source of much of sharia (hadith) is a bukharan persian that would be kind of weird to me. also, the crystallization of sunni islam, the hadiths, and sharia madabs occurred in the wake of the collapse of the explicitly arab trial hegemony of the ummayyads, often said to be in reaction to them.

    some of it is clearly from arab tribal law, but much of it is from byzantine or persian practice and norms. haven't seen a quantification.

    This is not the case with Roman law, which eventually superseded tribal customs in most of Europe and fundamentally transformed society and its legal institutions

    not sure i get this extreme disjunction between roman and tribal law. romans were more sophisticated and imposed order, logic, and rigor. but to some extent laws are laws in a deep sense reflecting human intuition about justice.

    I’m no expert on Islamic law, and I’m sure it requires a great deal of study to understand how it evolved over time, but I don’t think I’m going out on a limb to suspect that a body of law originally based not on a civilized society but a collection of tribal customs, and not nearly as malleable as common law found in Britain and its former colonies, would have a very powerful influence on any society that adopts it.

    your inferences are based on a chain of propositions grounded in axioms which may seem reasonable, and probably are, but are totally not supported from what i can tell. that's fine if you hold that as an opinion, but i was expecting some more. there are some reasonable arguments made about the inflexibility of islamic law, which i'm mildly skeptical of, but you aren't presenting them here (often they have to do with lack of separation of powers).

    “OT Christianity” is just a term people sometimes use for Christian churches/preachers that emphasize the Old Testament more than the New — not an official sect. It’s a pretty common thing, and Christians intuitively understand what it means when you mention the OT/NT dichotomy. Seventh Day Adventists would be an institutional example, but it shows up in individual churches throughout the US that have been influenced by Dominionists, Reconstructionists, etc. Some of these people actually want to establish a theocracy based on Mosaic law.

    this is marginal. the radical protestant, and particularly american, emphasis on the hebrew/judaic aspect is extreme and not typical of christianity. and seventh day adventists are really weird even compared to mainstream radical protestants like baptists. dominionism/reconstructionism is interesting from an intellectual perspective, but like most conservative christians, and unlike liberal secularists, i think they're pretty marginal and less influential as opposed to an indicator of some extreme tendencies within christianity.

    A small piece of anecdotal information. In my evangelical/fundamentalist religious community in the 50′s and early 60′s a significant number of members believed that having a Bible composed of just the New Testament alone was blasphemous. Most, if not all, have moved away from that extreme view now as I see kids being given New Testaments at church all the time. As has already been pointed out, they still frequently use Old Testament scriptures to justify certain beliefs such as opposition to acceptance of open homosexuality.

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  • Merry Christmas, Razib, all the best for your family!

    And thank You for the interesting articles You publish.

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  • @Bill P
    I say it because I think Islamic law has had at least as much of an influence on Muslims as Roman law had on Europe's Christians. Perhaps especially at higher levels of society, which matter more in the long run. In Europe, civil and ecclesiastic law ran counter to much tribal law, whereas Islam accommodated it to a greater degree, and even institutionalized it. From what I understand, a great deal of Sharia is actually based on pre-existing Arab tribal law, and while the Koran ameliorates many of the customs it does not seek to displace them. This is not the case with Roman law, which eventually superseded tribal customs in most of Europe and fundamentally transformed society and its legal institutions (contrast modern Nordic civil law to Medieval Icelandic courts). With Islam, on the other hand, you get an injection of Arab tribal law into societies that never practiced it before.

    I'm no expert on Islamic law, and I'm sure it requires a great deal of study to understand how it evolved over time, but I don't think I'm going out on a limb to suspect that a body of law originally based not on a civilized society but a collection of tribal customs, and not nearly as malleable as common law found in Britain and its former colonies, would have a very powerful influence on any society that adopts it.

    "OT Christianity" is just a term people sometimes use for Christian churches/preachers that emphasize the Old Testament more than the New -- not an official sect. It's a pretty common thing, and Christians intuitively understand what it means when you mention the OT/NT dichotomy. Seventh Day Adventists would be an institutional example, but it shows up in individual churches throughout the US that have been influenced by Dominionists, Reconstructionists, etc. Some of these people actually want to establish a theocracy based on Mosaic law.

    Perhaps especially at higher levels of society, which matter more in the long run. In Europe, civil and ecclesiastic law ran counter to much tribal law,

    why do you think it matters more in the long run? are civil law systems that different from common law systems in terms of culture in practice? (since common law is organic it obviously has some influence that can be traced all the way back to the theodosian code and from intermediaries like canon law).

    From what I understand, a great deal of Sharia is actually based on pre-existing Arab tribal law,

    where did you understand this from? i’m not an expert on sharia, but since the greatest codifier of the source of much of sharia (hadith) is a bukharan persian that would be kind of weird to me. also, the crystallization of sunni islam, the hadiths, and sharia madabs occurred in the wake of the collapse of the explicitly arab trial hegemony of the ummayyads, often said to be in reaction to them.

    some of it is clearly from arab tribal law, but much of it is from byzantine or persian practice and norms. haven’t seen a quantification.

    This is not the case with Roman law, which eventually superseded tribal customs in most of Europe and fundamentally transformed society and its legal institutions

    not sure i get this extreme disjunction between roman and tribal law. romans were more sophisticated and imposed order, logic, and rigor. but to some extent laws are laws in a deep sense reflecting human intuition about justice.

    I’m no expert on Islamic law, and I’m sure it requires a great deal of study to understand how it evolved over time, but I don’t think I’m going out on a limb to suspect that a body of law originally based not on a civilized society but a collection of tribal customs, and not nearly as malleable as common law found in Britain and its former colonies, would have a very powerful influence on any society that adopts it.

    your inferences are based on a chain of propositions grounded in axioms which may seem reasonable, and probably are, but are totally not supported from what i can tell. that’s fine if you hold that as an opinion, but i was expecting some more. there are some reasonable arguments made about the inflexibility of islamic law, which i’m mildly skeptical of, but you aren’t presenting them here (often they have to do with lack of separation of powers).

    “OT Christianity” is just a term people sometimes use for Christian churches/preachers that emphasize the Old Testament more than the New — not an official sect. It’s a pretty common thing, and Christians intuitively understand what it means when you mention the OT/NT dichotomy. Seventh Day Adventists would be an institutional example, but it shows up in individual churches throughout the US that have been influenced by Dominionists, Reconstructionists, etc. Some of these people actually want to establish a theocracy based on Mosaic law.

    this is marginal. the radical protestant, and particularly american, emphasis on the hebrew/judaic aspect is extreme and not typical of christianity. and seventh day adventists are really weird even compared to mainstream radical protestants like baptists. dominionism/reconstructionism is interesting from an intellectual perspective, but like most conservative christians, and unlike liberal secularists, i think they’re pretty marginal and less influential as opposed to an indicator of some extreme tendencies within christianity.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    A small piece of anecdotal information. In my evangelical/fundamentalist religious community in the 50's and early 60's a significant number of members believed that having a Bible composed of just the New Testament alone was blasphemous. Most, if not all, have moved away from that extreme view now as I see kids being given New Testaments at church all the time. As has already been pointed out, they still frequently use Old Testament scriptures to justify certain beliefs such as opposition to acceptance of open homosexuality.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • We should have DNA-tested every person posing as refugee. Then we could have verified his or seldomly hers back ground story using techniques known to the readers of this blog , since we Norwegians still aren’t that good separating the different Arabic dialects and telling lies from facts ,plus solved future rape cases faster . We are good at being incredibly stupid though, and I think somebody should give us a price for that achievement.

    Maybe Obama can come and present it when he’s finished With Your country.

    I’ve got some other funny News from Norway too, The litterally gay editor of Aftenposten, a major paper, decided to give a Name of the year-award to a homo-hating-jew-blaming, typical normal muslim that also called 9-11 an inside job and justified the Charlie Hebdo attacks because he welcomed some other jew hating, homo-bashing ..you know the deal..refugees or something. Yup, that’s what’s up in the land of the Naive.

    Merry Christmas Razib,

    you run a great blog.

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  • even if they are traumatized by war, they are still responsible for law breaking. you rape, you go to jail and then deportation after serving out the sentence.

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  • @Razib Khan
    Law is codified culture and it has an enormous influence on our societies, and maybe some influence on our innate character as well. It is both our reflection and our guide,

    why do you say this?

    There are elements of that in Christianity as well (OT version especially),

    what are you talking about? the OT = hebrew bible = a form of proto-judaism. it's not a version of christianity.

    I say it because I think Islamic law has had at least as much of an influence on Muslims as Roman law had on Europe’s Christians. Perhaps especially at higher levels of society, which matter more in the long run. In Europe, civil and ecclesiastic law ran counter to much tribal law, whereas Islam accommodated it to a greater degree, and even institutionalized it. From what I understand, a great deal of Sharia is actually based on pre-existing Arab tribal law, and while the Koran ameliorates many of the customs it does not seek to displace them. This is not the case with Roman law, which eventually superseded tribal customs in most of Europe and fundamentally transformed society and its legal institutions (contrast modern Nordic civil law to Medieval Icelandic courts). With Islam, on the other hand, you get an injection of Arab tribal law into societies that never practiced it before.

    I’m no expert on Islamic law, and I’m sure it requires a great deal of study to understand how it evolved over time, but I don’t think I’m going out on a limb to suspect that a body of law originally based not on a civilized society but a collection of tribal customs, and not nearly as malleable as common law found in Britain and its former colonies, would have a very powerful influence on any society that adopts it.

    “OT Christianity” is just a term people sometimes use for Christian churches/preachers that emphasize the Old Testament more than the New — not an official sect. It’s a pretty common thing, and Christians intuitively understand what it means when you mention the OT/NT dichotomy. Seventh Day Adventists would be an institutional example, but it shows up in individual churches throughout the US that have been influenced by Dominionists, Reconstructionists, etc. Some of these people actually want to establish a theocracy based on Mosaic law.

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    Perhaps especially at higher levels of society, which matter more in the long run. In Europe, civil and ecclesiastic law ran counter to much tribal law,

    why do you think it matters more in the long run? are civil law systems that different from common law systems in terms of culture in practice? (since common law is organic it obviously has some influence that can be traced all the way back to the theodosian code and from intermediaries like canon law).

    From what I understand, a great deal of Sharia is actually based on pre-existing Arab tribal law,

    where did you understand this from? i'm not an expert on sharia, but since the greatest codifier of the source of much of sharia (hadith) is a bukharan persian that would be kind of weird to me. also, the crystallization of sunni islam, the hadiths, and sharia madabs occurred in the wake of the collapse of the explicitly arab trial hegemony of the ummayyads, often said to be in reaction to them.

    some of it is clearly from arab tribal law, but much of it is from byzantine or persian practice and norms. haven't seen a quantification.

    This is not the case with Roman law, which eventually superseded tribal customs in most of Europe and fundamentally transformed society and its legal institutions

    not sure i get this extreme disjunction between roman and tribal law. romans were more sophisticated and imposed order, logic, and rigor. but to some extent laws are laws in a deep sense reflecting human intuition about justice.

    I’m no expert on Islamic law, and I’m sure it requires a great deal of study to understand how it evolved over time, but I don’t think I’m going out on a limb to suspect that a body of law originally based not on a civilized society but a collection of tribal customs, and not nearly as malleable as common law found in Britain and its former colonies, would have a very powerful influence on any society that adopts it.

    your inferences are based on a chain of propositions grounded in axioms which may seem reasonable, and probably are, but are totally not supported from what i can tell. that's fine if you hold that as an opinion, but i was expecting some more. there are some reasonable arguments made about the inflexibility of islamic law, which i'm mildly skeptical of, but you aren't presenting them here (often they have to do with lack of separation of powers).

    “OT Christianity” is just a term people sometimes use for Christian churches/preachers that emphasize the Old Testament more than the New — not an official sect. It’s a pretty common thing, and Christians intuitively understand what it means when you mention the OT/NT dichotomy. Seventh Day Adventists would be an institutional example, but it shows up in individual churches throughout the US that have been influenced by Dominionists, Reconstructionists, etc. Some of these people actually want to establish a theocracy based on Mosaic law.

    this is marginal. the radical protestant, and particularly american, emphasis on the hebrew/judaic aspect is extreme and not typical of christianity. and seventh day adventists are really weird even compared to mainstream radical protestants like baptists. dominionism/reconstructionism is interesting from an intellectual perspective, but like most conservative christians, and unlike liberal secularists, i think they're pretty marginal and less influential as opposed to an indicator of some extreme tendencies within christianity.

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  • @Razib Khan
    can you offer evidence that "Western women who have been the biggest champions of multiculturalism and the biggest critics of white males." the reality is the most effective leftists still seem to be aggressive high testosterone males, not women, even if women on average lean more to the left. angela merkel may loom large now, but the shift toward multiculturalism in the 1960s to 1980s, when the precedents were set, seem to be mostly white male politicians.

    “even if women on average lean more to the left”

    This is a general rule? Or it is an American eccentricity? I read somewhere that in UK women lean right (I don’t know how is in PortugAL)

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    • Replies: @Anon 2
    White women (and men) in the United States vote predominantly
    Republican. Black women vote heavily Democratic, and Hispanic
    women predominantly Democratic. Hence the Republicans these
    days are often described as the "White party" and the Democrats,
    at least among the Sailerites, as the "coalition of the fringes"
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    And willingness of Swedish and Scandinavian women to report it. Still, it is hard not to notice that Western countries with an almost open-door third-world immigrant policy have startlingly high rape stats. But alas, it's been Western women who have been the biggest champions of multiculturalism and the biggest critics of white males, so let them and their children at least enjoy the kind of society which they worked to bring about.

    Schadenfreude is how you get… how you find your political motivations? You might be happier you tried being less judgmental and caring more about consequences.

    If we consider immigration a shit test on a massive scale, you’ve failed that test. Women don’t want you to comply or to giggle at their irrationality, they want you to show determination and ability to fend for yourself. Chicks dig Chechens.

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  • @Razib Khan
    skeptical. i think jews are less important to world history than jews and their critics. re: most of the '-isms' in the modern west i think really go back to the french revolution.

    I meant more the way he (MacDonald) tries to couch his antisemitism as evolutionary psychology. There was a big do over this at Slate Magazine that John Tooby and Steven Pinker got dragged into back in 2000.

    http://www.cep.ucsb.edu/slatedialog.html

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  • @JohnnyWalker123
    Bangladeshis aren't hugely problematic in the UK. Many of them are climbing into the middle class and it's common for their women to interracially date (though often secretly). In comparison, British Pakistanis have much worse issues.

    One issue is that the Bangladeshis disproportionately settled in London, which has a good education system and strong economy. Many Pakistanis settled in rustbelt factory cities in deprived regions of the north.

    “One issue is that the Bangladeshis disproportionately settled in London”

    Umm, weren’t there some pretty serious issues with the Bangladeshi community in Tower Hamlets? Things like voting fraud and the allocation of public funds to Islamist groups? Is Lutfur Rahman really an example for successful “integration”?

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  • @Roger Sweeny
    The Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible. It is the Old Covenant, which is superseded by Jesus' New Covenant--but depending on your theology, large parts of the OT remain relevant. E.g., no Christian says God stopped caring about the Ten Commandments after Jesus came along. The verses against homosexuality are in the OT and many Christians think they still are binding precedent (as the lawyers would say). Others disagree, saying Jesus' talk about love renders them null and void; Jesus is like Justice Kennedy in Obergefell v. Hodges and Lawrence v. Texas.

    I know, I’m not a moron. My point is there is no Christianity without the NT so what the hell is bill talking about?

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  • @Razib Khan
    re: muslims, it's often proximity and colonial relationship why they are in europe.

    re: indians vs. paks in UK, comparison not good. half the indians are east africans, the muslims among them, often ismailis, are like indians not paks. a better comparison is with sikh punjabis, who like the mirpuris were from a peasant background from what i've been to understand, but don't cause as many social problems. bangladeshis would be another check, since they are assimilating to a much more muslim identified character in the UK (sending terrorists back to bdesh!).

    it does seem there is something with islam. but i wouldn't pin it on the scripture...

    Bangladeshis aren’t hugely problematic in the UK. Many of them are climbing into the middle class and it’s common for their women to interracially date (though often secretly). In comparison, British Pakistanis have much worse issues.

    One issue is that the Bangladeshis disproportionately settled in London, which has a good education system and strong economy. Many Pakistanis settled in rustbelt factory cities in deprived regions of the north.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    "One issue is that the Bangladeshis disproportionately settled in London"

    Umm, weren't there some pretty serious issues with the Bangladeshi community in Tower Hamlets? Things like voting fraud and the allocation of public funds to Islamist groups? Is Lutfur Rahman really an example for successful "integration"?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Razib Khan
    Law is codified culture and it has an enormous influence on our societies, and maybe some influence on our innate character as well. It is both our reflection and our guide,

    why do you say this?

    There are elements of that in Christianity as well (OT version especially),

    what are you talking about? the OT = hebrew bible = a form of proto-judaism. it's not a version of christianity.

    The Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible. It is the Old Covenant, which is superseded by Jesus’ New Covenant–but depending on your theology, large parts of the OT remain relevant. E.g., no Christian says God stopped caring about the Ten Commandments after Jesus came along. The verses against homosexuality are in the OT and many Christians think they still are binding precedent (as the lawyers would say). Others disagree, saying Jesus’ talk about love renders them null and void; Jesus is like Justice Kennedy in Obergefell v. Hodges and Lawrence v. Texas.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    I know, I'm not a moron. My point is there is no Christianity without the NT so what the hell is bill talking about?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Does anybody know if there’s ever been a detailed investigation about what’s going on in Scandinavia (Sweden especially) concerning rape and immigrants? I find some of the claims floating around in the internet about Sweden’s “rape epidemic” (almost as bad as South Africa…) hard to believe, but I’m not convinced either that it’s all due to an unusually extensive definition of rape in Swedish law.

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  • @Bill P

    you should probably avoid referencing the text or tradition in a explicit way as if that’s explains things. i think “technically” muslims migrating to non-muslim lands should behave in a particular way that’s much more pacific (analogy to sojourn in ethiopia). often they don’t. but that’s because social norms are way different than the letter of the law you’d infer from the koran or hadith (another inference, which ISIS holds to, is that you shouldn’t move to non-muslim lands period, so these migrants are apostates).

    p.s. the hebrew bible has similar passages. e.g., moses sanctioning the keeping of virgins captured as concubines.
     
    It's obviously too simplistic to try to explain everything with a literalist reading of the text, but I've put a lot of thought into how these things play out, and not because I have a problem with Islam but because I have been trying to "get" Christianity. The text is important. Our interpretations of law make a really big difference. Law is codified culture and it has an enormous influence on our societies, and maybe some influence on our innate character as well. It is both our reflection and our guide, if that makes any sense, and I tend to think that if we see it as immutable it also fixes us in a certain time, hence ISIS's barbarism.

    If I were to argue with Muslims, and I will respectfully do so at some point, I would ask whether a mere man were qualified to lay down God's law as though his were the final word. Knowing our own limitations as men, how could we refuse to leave our minds open to future revelations? Can there be no review or criticism of Muhammad's law?

    This is what I see as the fundamental problem with Islam. It draws a line in the sand and stubbornly ignores the fact that our understanding of the world is a work in progress rather than a done deal. There are elements of that in Christianity as well (OT version especially), but Jesus leaves a lot more doors open, and I'm pretty sure that was intentional. I'm convinced that these differences have profound consequences, just as Confucius had a profound influence on Chinese culture while also being a product of it.

    Law is codified culture and it has an enormous influence on our societies, and maybe some influence on our innate character as well. It is both our reflection and our guide,

    why do you say this?

    There are elements of that in Christianity as well (OT version especially),

    what are you talking about? the OT = hebrew bible = a form of proto-judaism. it’s not a version of christianity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Roger Sweeny
    The Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible. It is the Old Covenant, which is superseded by Jesus' New Covenant--but depending on your theology, large parts of the OT remain relevant. E.g., no Christian says God stopped caring about the Ten Commandments after Jesus came along. The verses against homosexuality are in the OT and many Christians think they still are binding precedent (as the lawyers would say). Others disagree, saying Jesus' talk about love renders them null and void; Jesus is like Justice Kennedy in Obergefell v. Hodges and Lawrence v. Texas.
    , @Bill P
    I say it because I think Islamic law has had at least as much of an influence on Muslims as Roman law had on Europe's Christians. Perhaps especially at higher levels of society, which matter more in the long run. In Europe, civil and ecclesiastic law ran counter to much tribal law, whereas Islam accommodated it to a greater degree, and even institutionalized it. From what I understand, a great deal of Sharia is actually based on pre-existing Arab tribal law, and while the Koran ameliorates many of the customs it does not seek to displace them. This is not the case with Roman law, which eventually superseded tribal customs in most of Europe and fundamentally transformed society and its legal institutions (contrast modern Nordic civil law to Medieval Icelandic courts). With Islam, on the other hand, you get an injection of Arab tribal law into societies that never practiced it before.

    I'm no expert on Islamic law, and I'm sure it requires a great deal of study to understand how it evolved over time, but I don't think I'm going out on a limb to suspect that a body of law originally based not on a civilized society but a collection of tribal customs, and not nearly as malleable as common law found in Britain and its former colonies, would have a very powerful influence on any society that adopts it.

    "OT Christianity" is just a term people sometimes use for Christian churches/preachers that emphasize the Old Testament more than the New -- not an official sect. It's a pretty common thing, and Christians intuitively understand what it means when you mention the OT/NT dichotomy. Seventh Day Adventists would be an institutional example, but it shows up in individual churches throughout the US that have been influenced by Dominionists, Reconstructionists, etc. Some of these people actually want to establish a theocracy based on Mosaic law.
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  • @CupOfCanada
    I'd be curious as to your take on the source @Anonymous mentions (Kevin MacDonald). (Suffice to say I'm not a fan.)

    skeptical. i think jews are less important to world history than jews and their critics. re: most of the ‘-isms’ in the modern west i think really go back to the french revolution.

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    • Replies: @CupOfCanada
    I meant more the way he (MacDonald) tries to couch his antisemitism as evolutionary psychology. There was a big do over this at Slate Magazine that John Tooby and Steven Pinker got dragged into back in 2000.

    http://www.cep.ucsb.edu/slatedialog.html
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  • @froginthewell
    Did you mean, by using the hunter-gather explanation, to suggest that Scandinavian liberalism might have something to do with the weather/soil in the region which makes farming impracticable (or a low population density which makes a move to agriculture unnecessary)?

    If so, it intrigues me a bit that you talked of a "hindu peasant from Bihar" as opposed to, say, Tamil Nadu/Karnataka/Kerala. I such a distinction was intentional and is meaningful, I wonder what historical factors one could attribute to it (IIRC Britishers found Thanjavur one of the most agriculturally fertile spots in their empire, so Tamil Nadu is quite agricultural).

    maybe. i don’t know, though it does seem to me that some of the more ‘complex’ accretions of ‘traditional’ societies never took hold in scandinavia. e.g., apparently free peasantry remained the dominant force from the viking age down to the modern times.

    from what i know there is a difference between south and the ‘cowbelt.’ the social pathologies we usually identify with s asia are most extreme in eastern UP and bihar.

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  • @Razib Khan
    and while the origins of multiculturalism in the West are Jewish

    ? can you point me to a reference? are you talking frankfurt school?

    I’d be curious as to your take on the source mentions (Kevin MacDonald). (Suffice to say I’m not a fan.)

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    skeptical. i think jews are less important to world history than jews and their critics. re: most of the '-isms' in the modern west i think really go back to the french revolution.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Razib Khan
    Infidels are considered fair spoils of war in the Koran. Non-Muslim females taken by Muslim men are explicitly property and have no agency. You can’t address the Muslim rape issue without addressing the Koran and Islam itself.


    you should probably avoid referencing the text or tradition in a explicit way as if that's explains things. i think "technically" muslims migrating to non-muslim lands should behave in a particular way that's much more pacific (analogy to sojourn in ethiopia). often they don't. but that's because social norms are way different than the letter of the law you'd infer from the koran or hadith (another inference, which ISIS holds to, is that you shouldn't move to non-muslim lands period, so these migrants are apostates).

    p.s. the hebrew bible has similar passages. e.g., moses sanctioning the keeping of virgins captured as concubines.

    you should probably avoid referencing the text or tradition in a explicit way as if that’s explains things. i think “technically” muslims migrating to non-muslim lands should behave in a particular way that’s much more pacific (analogy to sojourn in ethiopia). often they don’t. but that’s because social norms are way different than the letter of the law you’d infer from the koran or hadith (another inference, which ISIS holds to, is that you shouldn’t move to non-muslim lands period, so these migrants are apostates).

    p.s. the hebrew bible has similar passages. e.g., moses sanctioning the keeping of virgins captured as concubines.

    It’s obviously too simplistic to try to explain everything with a literalist reading of the text, but I’ve put a lot of thought into how these things play out, and not because I have a problem with Islam but because I have been trying to “get” Christianity. The text is important. Our interpretations of law make a really big difference. Law is codified culture and it has an enormous influence on our societies, and maybe some influence on our innate character as well. It is both our reflection and our guide, if that makes any sense, and I tend to think that if we see it as immutable it also fixes us in a certain time, hence ISIS’s barbarism.

    If I were to argue with Muslims, and I will respectfully do so at some point, I would ask whether a mere man were qualified to lay down God’s law as though his were the final word. Knowing our own limitations as men, how could we refuse to leave our minds open to future revelations? Can there be no review or criticism of Muhammad’s law?

    This is what I see as the fundamental problem with Islam. It draws a line in the sand and stubbornly ignores the fact that our understanding of the world is a work in progress rather than a done deal. There are elements of that in Christianity as well (OT version especially), but Jesus leaves a lot more doors open, and I’m pretty sure that was intentional. I’m convinced that these differences have profound consequences, just as Confucius had a profound influence on Chinese culture while also being a product of it.

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    Law is codified culture and it has an enormous influence on our societies, and maybe some influence on our innate character as well. It is both our reflection and our guide,

    why do you say this?

    There are elements of that in Christianity as well (OT version especially),

    what are you talking about? the OT = hebrew bible = a form of proto-judaism. it's not a version of christianity.

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  • I want to say that I think these programs are a good idea for the same reasons that any sex education is a good idea, particularly when it covers the issue of consent. I think giving new immigrants information about the society they’re joining is just common sense too (or should be at least). At the same time, I think hand-wringing over this issue with respect to immigration is way overblown.

    Warning: wall of text follows…

    So according to Statistics Norway, there were 1265 sex crimes committed in Norway in 2014. Broken down by continent and citizenship, 1179 were committed by people with European citizenship, 34 by people with African citizenship, 45 by people with Asian citizenship, 5 by people with American (North+South) citizenship and 2 by stateless people.

    As of 2014, in Norway there were 4 625 879 Norwegian citizens, 338 993 European citizens, 42 453 African citizens, 77 686 Asian citizens, 20 339 American citizens, 1 731 Oceanian citizens, and 1 855 stateless people, for a total of 5 108 936 residents.

    So Europeans were 97.2% of the population and were responsible for 93.2% of sex crimes. Africans were 0.83% of the population and responsible 2.7% of sex crimes. Asians were 1.52% of the population and responsible for 3.6% of sex crimes. Americans were 0.40% of the population and were responsible for 0.40% of sex crimes. Stateless people were 0.036% of the population and were responsible for 0.16% of sex crimes.

    Unfortunately Statistics Norway doesn’t have good numbers on crime rates for second-generation and naturalized Norwegians, but I figure that gives a reasonable picture of things, especially given that Norway’s naturalization rate is low (~15,000 per year IIRC).

    I have to say, based on the above, I think the story is really overblown and unfounded. Yes, non-European immigrants are over-represented among sex offenders, but 93% of sex-offenders in Norway are European. And there’s a pretty intuitively obvious explanation for that gap too – age! There aren’t a whole lot of 75 year old rapists running around Norway. When you control for age alone, the vast majority of the differences disappear. For example, the typical 18-20 year old pure laine Norwegian has a 4.79% chance of being convicted of a crime in a given 12 month period. For an 18-20 year old African immigrant to Norway, it’s a 6.36% chance. It’s 6.79% for someone from Eastern Europe, 6.42% for someone from Latin America and 6.91% for someone from Asia. For second generation immigrants to Norway, it’s 4.34% – below the pure laine Norwegians, though the sample sizes are starting to get pretty small here (226 convictions).

    So yes, there are real differences here, probably due to a combination of cultural and socioeconomic factors, but the differences are not nearly as large as some people here are suggesting. Here’s the full study mentioned in the article if anyone is interested. It’s in Norwegian, but Google Translate does a pretty good job on the PDF.

    http://www.ssb.no/a/publikasjoner/pdf/rapp_201121/rapp_201121.pdf

    I frankly I think it’s a major failure by the author to not emphasize the importance of the age factor more.

    One thing I did find interesting (in this http://www.scribd.com/doc/76695373/Excerpt-From-Oslo-Police-District-Report-on-Rape – not sure how reliable it is though) – is the difference in the types of sex crimes committed by different groups. Immigrants were more likely to commit sex crimes involving their partner and/or involving violence, while Norwegians were more likely to commit sex crimes like date rape or drugging someone a party.

    Razib – on your Bihar point, interestingly enough immigrants to Norway from India are less likely to commit crimes than Norwegians. I’m not sure how much of a filter Sweden applies to that immigrant stream though. I could see conformity to societal norms as being a counterbalancing feature of some more traditional societies maybe?

    If anyone is interested in digging around in Statistics Norway’s database (that’s where I got many of my numbers from), it’s here:

    https://www.ssb.no/statistikkbanken

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  • Did you mean, by using the hunter-gather explanation, to suggest that Scandinavian liberalism might have something to do with the weather/soil in the region which makes farming impracticable (or a low population density which makes a move to agriculture unnecessary)?

    If so, it intrigues me a bit that you talked of a “hindu peasant from Bihar” as opposed to, say, Tamil Nadu/Karnataka/Kerala. I such a distinction was intentional and is meaningful, I wonder what historical factors one could attribute to it (IIRC Britishers found Thanjavur one of the most agriculturally fertile spots in their empire, so Tamil Nadu is quite agricultural).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    maybe. i don't know, though it does seem to me that some of the more 'complex' accretions of 'traditional' societies never took hold in scandinavia. e.g., apparently free peasantry remained the dominant force from the viking age down to the modern times.

    from what i know there is a difference between south and the 'cowbelt.' the social pathologies we usually identify with s asia are most extreme in eastern UP and bihar.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Vinay
    "hindu peasants from bihar would cause same problems"

    True but they likely lack the same opportunities to migrate to the West. Perhaps the oil wealth of the Middle East has simply created a Beverly Hillbillies effect for Muslim migrants, where improvements in skills, literacy etc. has far outpaced change in cultural norms.

    In other words, Muslims are not more likely than Hindus or Christians to have rape-prone people but Muslims with such tendencies are much more likely to have the ability to emigrate. Then again, it doesn't why Pakistani migrants to UK seem to diverge so sharply from Indian migrants.

    re: muslims, it’s often proximity and colonial relationship why they are in europe.

    re: indians vs. paks in UK, comparison not good. half the indians are east africans, the muslims among them, often ismailis, are like indians not paks. a better comparison is with sikh punjabis, who like the mirpuris were from a peasant background from what i’ve been to understand, but don’t cause as many social problems. bangladeshis would be another check, since they are assimilating to a much more muslim identified character in the UK (sending terrorists back to bdesh!).

    it does seem there is something with islam. but i wouldn’t pin it on the scripture…

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    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Bangladeshis aren't hugely problematic in the UK. Many of them are climbing into the middle class and it's common for their women to interracially date (though often secretly). In comparison, British Pakistanis have much worse issues.

    One issue is that the Bangladeshis disproportionately settled in London, which has a good education system and strong economy. Many Pakistanis settled in rustbelt factory cities in deprived regions of the north.
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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    In South Korea, South Asians are seen as almost bad as West Asian Muslims as far as sexual predation goes. Islam adds to that vice but the primary contribution is seen as coming from racial and cultural factors. For instance Malaysians and Indonesians are seen as worse than other non-Muslim SE Asians but not anywhere as bad as Hindu or Sikh South Asians.

    Most West Asian and South Asian males are physically smaller than South Korean counterparts so the resentment South Korean males have toward these groups is different from the ones that they have toward European males(the latter being more desperate but the former can potentially lead more to vigilante violence).

    Razib once commented on the racist politics of the Burmese government toward Muslim minorities.
    I am acutally surprised that he found this puzzling; South Asian persecution and sexual predation on Southeast Asian minorities(“Northeast provinces) are well documented and it quite clearly reflects the long documented and verified racist attitude South Asians have toward “Mongoloid” people. South Asians think East Asian women are fair games just as Muslims do, pagan women.
    (Rohingya are South Asian Muslims living in Burma. Just as in Anglo-Irish conflict the religious difference is just a cover. It is actually a race war and you cannot put all the blame on Burmese)

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  • @Razib Khan
    hindu peasants from bihar would cause same problems. it just happens to be thought that a disproportionate number of hyper-patriarchal societies which are contributing migrants to norway are from muslim societies. one thing that is similar between north indian hindus and muslims are keen ingroup-outgroup sensibilities. the targets of rape are usually outgroups, often subordinate in that they can't fight back in a communal sense.

    “hindu peasants from bihar would cause same problems”

    True but they likely lack the same opportunities to migrate to the West. Perhaps the oil wealth of the Middle East has simply created a Beverly Hillbillies effect for Muslim migrants, where improvements in skills, literacy etc. has far outpaced change in cultural norms.

    In other words, Muslims are not more likely than Hindus or Christians to have rape-prone people but Muslims with such tendencies are much more likely to have the ability to emigrate. Then again, it doesn’t why Pakistani migrants to UK seem to diverge so sharply from Indian migrants.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    re: muslims, it's often proximity and colonial relationship why they are in europe.

    re: indians vs. paks in UK, comparison not good. half the indians are east africans, the muslims among them, often ismailis, are like indians not paks. a better comparison is with sikh punjabis, who like the mirpuris were from a peasant background from what i've been to understand, but don't cause as many social problems. bangladeshis would be another check, since they are assimilating to a much more muslim identified character in the UK (sending terrorists back to bdesh!).

    it does seem there is something with islam. but i wouldn't pin it on the scripture...
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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Razib Khan
    and while the origins of multiculturalism in the West are Jewish

    ? can you point me to a reference? are you talking frankfurt school?

    Contrary to popular belief (Ann Coulter, Steve Sailer, et al.), it was Abe Ribicoff and Jacob Javits, and not Ted Kennedy, who were the most instrumental in changing the immigration patterns. This topic is too large to cite example after example but for starters I refer you to Prof. Kevin McDonald’s Understanding Jewish Influence: A Study in Ethnic Activism. The Kindle version is only $2.99 (for 205 pp.) and the late Sam Francis wrote the intro.

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  • @Brett

    All of a sudden males, who are sometimes portrayed in feminist literature as “natural born rapists,” become traumatized by war and no longer responsible for their actions (or at least not as culpable).
     
    That must be something out of the Second Wave. I haven't heard that from any feminists lately, and especially not those active on sexual violence - if anything, it's the opposite view (that the "he couldn't help himself" argument just allows predators to make excuses for calculating behavior).

    In any case, I don't think Sweden is as progressive on rape as they claim to be. I still remember that Swedish judge who ruled that a woman "wasn't really being raped" because apparently "he had it in his mind that he wasn't committing rape" . . . even though she was loudly shouting "No" enough for the neighbors to hear, erasing any ambiguity.

    Sounds to me like a judge who takes intersectionality seriously.

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  • @Anonymous

    can you offer evidence that “Western women who have been the biggest champions of multiculturalism and the biggest critics of white males.” the reality is the most effective leftists still seem to be aggressive high testosterone males, not women, even if women on average lean more to the left
     
    Yeah, it's the significant gender gap that I'm talking about. Multiculturalism is subsumed within liberal politics, and while the origins of multiculturalism in the West are Jewish, it could not have continued to thrive were it not for the broad base of support from white women.

    and while the origins of multiculturalism in the West are Jewish

    ? can you point me to a reference? are you talking frankfurt school?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Contrary to popular belief (Ann Coulter, Steve Sailer, et al.), it was Abe Ribicoff and Jacob Javits, and not Ted Kennedy, who were the most instrumental in changing the immigration patterns. This topic is too large to cite example after example but for starters I refer you to Prof. Kevin McDonald's Understanding Jewish Influence: A Study in Ethnic Activism. The Kindle version is only $2.99 (for 205 pp.) and the late Sam Francis wrote the intro.
    , @CupOfCanada
    I'd be curious as to your take on the source @Anonymous mentions (Kevin MacDonald). (Suffice to say I'm not a fan.)
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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    can you offer evidence that “Western women who have been the biggest champions of multiculturalism and the biggest critics of white males.” the reality is the most effective leftists still seem to be aggressive high testosterone males, not women, even if women on average lean more to the left

    Yeah, it’s the significant gender gap that I’m talking about. Multiculturalism is subsumed within liberal politics, and while the origins of multiculturalism in the West are Jewish, it could not have continued to thrive were it not for the broad base of support from white women.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    and while the origins of multiculturalism in the West are Jewish

    ? can you point me to a reference? are you talking frankfurt school?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bill P
    Within clans and kin groups I'm sure rape has always been rare. As you suggest it's when people are thrown together clear guidelines (or with dysfunctional ones) that lines get blurred. Scandinavians have probably always mainly refrained from raping their own women, but when the Rus - a group of Swedes from Roslagen - invaded Slavic lands they became notorious slavers. Can there be any doubt that rape of slaves was a routine occurrence in Viking trading posts?

    I'm sure today in Saudi Arabia there are many wealthy enclaves of Muslims in which rape is almost nonexistent. Or, I should say rape of Saudi women is nonexistent. I have no idea what goes on with the SE Asian maids, but I'm sure some of it is pretty bad.

    Rape becomes far more common when you throw different groups of people together, whether they are Muslims, Africans, Asians or Europeans. Did Japanese rape Korean and Chinese women during the occupation? You bet. Did Russians and Americans rape European women during their march to victory? Sure. Preventing rape during war requires very strict discipline, and personally I think it's to Americans' credit that it didn't happen more often than it did.

    So I'd say that it isn't entirely fair to blame the foreigners' culture in Norway (rather the politicians who promoted multiculturalism are to blame), but with one strong exception: Islam.

    Infidels are considered fair spoils of war in the Koran. Non-Muslim females taken by Muslim men are explicitly property and have no agency. You can't address the Muslim rape issue without addressing the Koran and Islam itself.

    Infidels are considered fair spoils of war in the Koran. Non-Muslim females taken by Muslim men are explicitly property and have no agency. You can’t address the Muslim rape issue without addressing the Koran and Islam itself.

    you should probably avoid referencing the text or tradition in a explicit way as if that’s explains things. i think “technically” muslims migrating to non-muslim lands should behave in a particular way that’s much more pacific (analogy to sojourn in ethiopia). often they don’t. but that’s because social norms are way different than the letter of the law you’d infer from the koran or hadith (another inference, which ISIS holds to, is that you shouldn’t move to non-muslim lands period, so these migrants are apostates).

    p.s. the hebrew bible has similar passages. e.g., moses sanctioning the keeping of virgins captured as concubines.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill P

    you should probably avoid referencing the text or tradition in a explicit way as if that’s explains things. i think “technically” muslims migrating to non-muslim lands should behave in a particular way that’s much more pacific (analogy to sojourn in ethiopia). often they don’t. but that’s because social norms are way different than the letter of the law you’d infer from the koran or hadith (another inference, which ISIS holds to, is that you shouldn’t move to non-muslim lands period, so these migrants are apostates).

    p.s. the hebrew bible has similar passages. e.g., moses sanctioning the keeping of virgins captured as concubines.
     
    It's obviously too simplistic to try to explain everything with a literalist reading of the text, but I've put a lot of thought into how these things play out, and not because I have a problem with Islam but because I have been trying to "get" Christianity. The text is important. Our interpretations of law make a really big difference. Law is codified culture and it has an enormous influence on our societies, and maybe some influence on our innate character as well. It is both our reflection and our guide, if that makes any sense, and I tend to think that if we see it as immutable it also fixes us in a certain time, hence ISIS's barbarism.

    If I were to argue with Muslims, and I will respectfully do so at some point, I would ask whether a mere man were qualified to lay down God's law as though his were the final word. Knowing our own limitations as men, how could we refuse to leave our minds open to future revelations? Can there be no review or criticism of Muhammad's law?

    This is what I see as the fundamental problem with Islam. It draws a line in the sand and stubbornly ignores the fact that our understanding of the world is a work in progress rather than a done deal. There are elements of that in Christianity as well (OT version especially), but Jesus leaves a lot more doors open, and I'm pretty sure that was intentional. I'm convinced that these differences have profound consequences, just as Confucius had a profound influence on Chinese culture while also being a product of it.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Within clans and kin groups I’m sure rape has always been rare. As you suggest it’s when people are thrown together clear guidelines (or with dysfunctional ones) that lines get blurred. Scandinavians have probably always mainly refrained from raping their own women, but when the Rus – a group of Swedes from Roslagen – invaded Slavic lands they became notorious slavers. Can there be any doubt that rape of slaves was a routine occurrence in Viking trading posts?

    I’m sure today in Saudi Arabia there are many wealthy enclaves of Muslims in which rape is almost nonexistent. Or, I should say rape of Saudi women is nonexistent. I have no idea what goes on with the SE Asian maids, but I’m sure some of it is pretty bad.

    Rape becomes far more common when you throw different groups of people together, whether they are Muslims, Africans, Asians or Europeans. Did Japanese rape Korean and Chinese women during the occupation? You bet. Did Russians and Americans rape European women during their march to victory? Sure. Preventing rape during war requires very strict discipline, and personally I think it’s to Americans’ credit that it didn’t happen more often than it did.

    So I’d say that it isn’t entirely fair to blame the foreigners’ culture in Norway (rather the politicians who promoted multiculturalism are to blame), but with one strong exception: Islam.

    Infidels are considered fair spoils of war in the Koran. Non-Muslim females taken by Muslim men are explicitly property and have no agency. You can’t address the Muslim rape issue without addressing the Koran and Islam itself.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    Infidels are considered fair spoils of war in the Koran. Non-Muslim females taken by Muslim men are explicitly property and have no agency. You can’t address the Muslim rape issue without addressing the Koran and Islam itself.


    you should probably avoid referencing the text or tradition in a explicit way as if that's explains things. i think "technically" muslims migrating to non-muslim lands should behave in a particular way that's much more pacific (analogy to sojourn in ethiopia). often they don't. but that's because social norms are way different than the letter of the law you'd infer from the koran or hadith (another inference, which ISIS holds to, is that you shouldn't move to non-muslim lands period, so these migrants are apostates).

    p.s. the hebrew bible has similar passages. e.g., moses sanctioning the keeping of virgins captured as concubines.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    And willingness of Swedish and Scandinavian women to report it. Still, it is hard not to notice that Western countries with an almost open-door third-world immigrant policy have startlingly high rape stats. But alas, it's been Western women who have been the biggest champions of multiculturalism and the biggest critics of white males, so let them and their children at least enjoy the kind of society which they worked to bring about.

    can you offer evidence that “Western women who have been the biggest champions of multiculturalism and the biggest critics of white males.” the reality is the most effective leftists still seem to be aggressive high testosterone males, not women, even if women on average lean more to the left. angela merkel may loom large now, but the shift toward multiculturalism in the 1960s to 1980s, when the precedents were set, seem to be mostly white male politicians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Miguel Madeira
    "even if women on average lean more to the left"

    This is a general rule? Or it is an American eccentricity? I read somewhere that in UK women lean right (I don't know how is in PortugAL)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @EldnahYm
    The article seems to dance around the issue, so one has to ask: Is this primarily a migrant issue or a Muslim migrant issue? The NYT article mentions people from Eritrea, which is a mixed Islamic/Christian country. In the article though are found references to people with Muslim sounding names and also mentions women wearing burqas. Reading between the lines it sure sounds like the issue is primarily with migrants of Muslim background, though this is possibly not the case. Obviously rape is a problem in all sorts of different cultures, but it is possible that members of certain groups are much more prone to raping if they are placed in the right circumstances.

    hindu peasants from bihar would cause same problems. it just happens to be thought that a disproportionate number of hyper-patriarchal societies which are contributing migrants to norway are from muslim societies. one thing that is similar between north indian hindus and muslims are keen ingroup-outgroup sensibilities. the targets of rape are usually outgroups, often subordinate in that they can’t fight back in a communal sense.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vinay
    "hindu peasants from bihar would cause same problems"

    True but they likely lack the same opportunities to migrate to the West. Perhaps the oil wealth of the Middle East has simply created a Beverly Hillbillies effect for Muslim migrants, where improvements in skills, literacy etc. has far outpaced change in cultural norms.

    In other words, Muslims are not more likely than Hindus or Christians to have rape-prone people but Muslims with such tendencies are much more likely to have the ability to emigrate. Then again, it doesn't why Pakistani migrants to UK seem to diverge so sharply from Indian migrants.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Razib Khan
    though part of this is sweden's 'liberal' collection of these stats and their definition from what i have read.

    And willingness of Swedish and Scandinavian women to report it. Still, it is hard not to notice that Western countries with an almost open-door third-world immigrant policy have startlingly high rape stats. But alas, it’s been Western women who have been the biggest champions of multiculturalism and the biggest critics of white males, so let them and their children at least enjoy the kind of society which they worked to bring about.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    can you offer evidence that "Western women who have been the biggest champions of multiculturalism and the biggest critics of white males." the reality is the most effective leftists still seem to be aggressive high testosterone males, not women, even if women on average lean more to the left. angela merkel may loom large now, but the shift toward multiculturalism in the 1960s to 1980s, when the precedents were set, seem to be mostly white male politicians.
    , @Esso
    Schadenfreude is how you get... how you find your political motivations? You might be happier you tried being less judgmental and caring more about consequences.

    If we consider immigration a shit test on a massive scale, you've failed that test. Women don't want you to comply or to giggle at their irrationality, they want you to show determination and ability to fend for yourself. Chicks dig Chechens.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • The article seems to dance around the issue, so one has to ask: Is this primarily a migrant issue or a Muslim migrant issue? The NYT article mentions people from Eritrea, which is a mixed Islamic/Christian country. In the article though are found references to people with Muslim sounding names and also mentions women wearing burqas. Reading between the lines it sure sounds like the issue is primarily with migrants of Muslim background, though this is possibly not the case. Obviously rape is a problem in all sorts of different cultures, but it is possible that members of certain groups are much more prone to raping if they are placed in the right circumstances.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    hindu peasants from bihar would cause same problems. it just happens to be thought that a disproportionate number of hyper-patriarchal societies which are contributing migrants to norway are from muslim societies. one thing that is similar between north indian hindus and muslims are keen ingroup-outgroup sensibilities. the targets of rape are usually outgroups, often subordinate in that they can't fight back in a communal sense.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • All of a sudden males, who are sometimes portrayed in feminist literature as “natural born rapists,” become traumatized by war and no longer responsible for their actions (or at least not as culpable).

    That must be something out of the Second Wave. I haven’t heard that from any feminists lately, and especially not those active on sexual violence – if anything, it’s the opposite view (that the “he couldn’t help himself” argument just allows predators to make excuses for calculating behavior).

    In any case, I don’t think Sweden is as progressive on rape as they claim to be. I still remember that Swedish judge who ruled that a woman “wasn’t really being raped” because apparently “he had it in his mind that he wasn’t committing rape” . . . even though she was loudly shouting “No” enough for the neighbors to hear, erasing any ambiguity.

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    • Replies: @ogunsiron
    Sounds to me like a judge who takes intersectionality seriously.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sean

    Mr. Isdal, the Stavanger psychologist, said refugees, particularly those traumatized by war, represent a “risk group” that is not predestined to violent crime but that does need help to cope with a new and alien environment.
     
    http://www.thelocal.no/20120109/immigrants-behind-most-rapes-in-stavanger

    Second generation immigrants are heavily represented among the rapists. Third generation before long. This is the meaning of downward assimilation: progressively worse outcomes as the immigrants' home culture that co evolved with their more sexually driven hereditary qualities has less effect. In many Muslim countries flirting with women risks the likelihood of a severe beating.

    epigenetics? [this is not meant seriously for my socially more obtuse readers]

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  • @Da-Mith
    Sweden is now the "Rape Capital" of the world. If Assange was black he could easy get off his "rape" charge.... citing.... "cultural differences"

    though part of this is sweden’s ‘liberal’ collection of these stats and their definition from what i have read.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    And willingness of Swedish and Scandinavian women to report it. Still, it is hard not to notice that Western countries with an almost open-door third-world immigrant policy have startlingly high rape stats. But alas, it's been Western women who have been the biggest champions of multiculturalism and the biggest critics of white males, so let them and their children at least enjoy the kind of society which they worked to bring about.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Sweden is now the “Rape Capital” of the world. If Assange was black he could easy get off his “rape” charge…. citing…. “cultural differences”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    though part of this is sweden's 'liberal' collection of these stats and their definition from what i have read.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Mr. Isdal, the Stavanger psychologist, said refugees, particularly those traumatized by war, represent a “risk group” that is not predestined to violent crime but that does need help to cope with a new and alien environment.

    http://www.thelocal.no/20120109/immigrants-behind-most-rapes-in-stavanger

    Second generation immigrants are heavily represented among the rapists. Third generation before long. This is the meaning of downward assimilation: progressively worse outcomes as the immigrants’ home culture that co evolved with their more sexually driven hereditary qualities has less effect. In many Muslim countries flirting with women risks the likelihood of a severe beating.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    epigenetics? [this is not meant seriously for my socially more obtuse readers]
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • James A Michener once noted how Anglo women who dined alone at Spanish restaurants used to need little US/UK flags on their tables as a sign that they were not women of easy virtue and should be allowed to eat in peace.

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  • According to a recent n=150,000 global survey by Gallup and S&P, there is an astounding lack of financial literacy in the world. To gauge financial literacy, they asked a series of four questions on basic financial concepts such as risk diversification, inflation, simple interest, and compound interest. They were very simple and typically only had...
  • Anatoly, did you know PISA 2012 had a financial literacy component? Have a look at page 36 of the PISA overview and the sample test questions.

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  • @Anonymous
    The British Isles and North Sea area is pretty mild because of the Gulf Stream compared to NE Europe and Russia and elsewhere.

    True but Malthusian pressure in Britain favoured the hard workers survivng

    Read Gregor Clark’s A Farewell to Alms

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  • @Hibernian
    Old Joe Kennedy was pretty good at finance... ...and bootlegging.

    Old Joe Kennedy was pretty good at finance… …and bootlegging.

    I could be pretty good at finance too, if, like old Joe Kennedy, I had inside information!

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  • Mormons are great businessmen. The early Mormon church encouraged converts to immigrate to Utah. The converts mostly came from England, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and I believe Germany.

    Here is an unofficial and incomplete list of common Mormon last names:

    http://furtherlightandtruth.blogspot.com/2011/03/list-of-most-common-mormon-surnames.html

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  • @Ivy
    Old Joe should've doubled down on the swimming lessons for the kiddies.

    Some of the boys could swim pretty good, just not good enough to save their traveling companions.

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  • @Anon
    Is it Protestantism though, or harsher environments?

    Harsh or challenging environments create people who need to keep on the ball (crafty people survive, lazy people die). A lot of Protestant countries are also Northern European, where planning ahead (harsh winters) is nessesary to survive.

    The British Isles and North Sea area is pretty mild because of the Gulf Stream compared to NE Europe and Russia and elsewhere.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    True but Malthusian pressure in Britain favoured the hard workers survivng

    Read Gregor Clark's A Farewell to Alms
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Is it Protestantism though, or harsher environments?

    Harsh or challenging environments create people who need to keep on the ball (crafty people survive, lazy people die). A lot of Protestant countries are also Northern European, where planning ahead (harsh winters) is nessesary to survive.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The British Isles and North Sea area is pretty mild because of the Gulf Stream compared to NE Europe and Russia and elsewhere.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Hibernian
    Old Joe Kennedy was pretty good at finance... ...and bootlegging.

    Old Joe should’ve doubled down on the swimming lessons for the kiddies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Some of the boys could swim pretty good, just not good enough to save their traveling companions.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Three questions out of five require manipulating percentages in your head. Many people have a problem with doing that; they just don’t get percentages. But they often easily get the same problem if you restate it in dollars and cents.

    Also, I can see how in lower trust societies people may have a different perspective on Question 1, which asks if it’s safer to invest in a single or multiple businesses. As far as the researchers are concerned the correct answer is multiple businesses. But a person from a low trust society would likely think that the safest way is to invest all your money into a single business – your own. This would be far more preferable to handing out the money to a bunch of strangers of questionable trustworthiness.

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  • @Seamus Padraig

    A country like Iran, or any of the middle eastern countries don’t have experience with commerce?
     
    Commerce and finance are not the same thing, Sunbeam. Commerce means trading real goods; finance means playing shell games with money.

    Here's my own hypothesis regarding religion and finance: Historically, both Islam and the Catholic Church forbid usury; the Jews and Protestants, in general, did not. It makes perfect sense then that the latter would have a greater cultural affinity for finance than the former.

    Anatoly, didn't the Orthodox Church also ban usury?

    Regarding the Buddhists, Confucians, Animists, etc., I have no general hypothesis to offer.

    Old Joe Kennedy was pretty good at finance… …and bootlegging.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivy
    Old Joe should've doubled down on the swimming lessons for the kiddies.
    , @Seamus Padraig

    Old Joe Kennedy was pretty good at finance… …and bootlegging.
     
    I could be pretty good at finance too, if, like old Joe Kennedy, I had inside information!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    In Japan, household budgets and finances are managed by the women. Japanese salarymen hand over their salaries to their wives, who give them an allowance or pocket money in return. I imagine it may be similar in Korea and China. It could be that the men there never deal with and know much about finances, sort of like how when wives used to do all the cooking and cleaning, few men knew how to cook.

    “Why male Japanese wage-earners have only ‘pocket money’”

    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-19674306

    The 15th of each month is a big day for 36-year-old Yoshihiro Nozawa: it is the day he gets paid.

    But every month, he hands over his entire salary to his wife Masami.

    She controls the household budget and gives him a monthly pocket money of 30,000 yen ($381; £243). Despite being the breadwinner, that is all the money he can spend on himself over the next 30 days.

    “I started controlling the household budget when I became a housewife after having children,” says Masami.

    “Suddenly, there was only one income and their educations and private lessons cost a lot.”

    Yoshihiro nods but he says 30,000 yen doesn’t go far in the world’s most expensive city, Tokyo.

    “She makes me a lunch box every morning so that helps a lot,” he says as he eats his lunch alone in a nearby park from his office.

    His only luxury is cigarettes, which he spends one third of his monthly allowance on.

    “I think I may have to quit if the price goes up again,” he says.

    Yoshihiro may be eating his lunch alone but he is not unique.

    According to a survey conducted by research firm Softbrain Field, 74% of Japanese household budgets are controlled by women and it is not just couples with young children.

    47-year-old Taisaku Kubo has been getting 50,000 yen a month from his wife Yuriko for the past 15 years.

    He has tried to negotiate a pay rise each year but his wife makes a presentation to explain why it cannot be done.

    “She draws a pie chart of our household budget to explain why I cannot get more pocket money,” says Taisaku.

    On the hand drawn chart, his pocket money is stated as 8.8% of the monthly budget.

    “The biggest expenditures are home loan and taxes,” says his wife Yuriko. “We don’t have children so I want to make sure that we’ll have enough money after his retirement.”

    Just like that, Taisaku loses his argument for a pay rise.

    “I’ve given up my car, motorbike and many expensive hobbies,” he laughs.

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  • @Sunbeam
    Looks to me there is a hole in your argument.

    A country like Iran, or any of the middle eastern countries don't have experience with commerce?

    Really? I mean the homes of the trade caravan, the bazaar, the Satrap's Court, trading ships even...

    Just saying trade goes WAY back in this neck of the woods.

    Of course a certain religion has a problem with interest on loans. But that religion would have found it necessary to have that problem circa 700 AD then right?

    Anyway. This was such a cool, interesting part of the world till that monster/abomination religion came along and turned everything into crap.

    I'd like to turn back the clock; Zoraoasterism in Persia, the Byzantines back big in Turkey, animists and funky people in the Balkans...

    And Isis, Marduk, and the Temple of Sin back in Babylon.

    Actually we are going to have to move Baghdad about a 100 miles and rename it. And those Shias are gonna sh*t when they see the new order. Shame Hussein is gone, that's one man who would have gotten my vision and been on board.

    Then we'll have cat worshipers and 220 million gods in Egypt (trust me this place gave India a run for it's money)...

    A man can dream. Of course in my fantasy middle east you'd find Christianity in only one place, Byzantium. I'm totally cool with Judaism being in Israel though.

    A country like Iran, or any of the middle eastern countries don’t have experience with commerce?

    Commerce and finance are not the same thing, Sunbeam. Commerce means trading real goods; finance means playing shell games with money.

    Here’s my own hypothesis regarding religion and finance: Historically, both Islam and the Catholic Church forbid usury; the Jews and Protestants, in general, did not. It makes perfect sense then that the latter would have a greater cultural affinity for finance than the former.

    Anatoly, didn’t the Orthodox Church also ban usury?

    Regarding the Buddhists, Confucians, Animists, etc., I have no general hypothesis to offer.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Old Joe Kennedy was pretty good at finance... ...and bootlegging.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @5371
    Sampling in poor countries is so inadequate that 90% of the results of such surveys are nonsense.

    The only results from poor countries to trust is IQ tests.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Looks to me there is a hole in your argument.

    A country like Iran, or any of the middle eastern countries don’t have experience with commerce?

    Really? I mean the homes of the trade caravan, the bazaar, the Satrap’s Court, trading ships even…

    Just saying trade goes WAY back in this neck of the woods.

    Of course a certain religion has a problem with interest on loans. But that religion would have found it necessary to have that problem circa 700 AD then right?

    Anyway. This was such a cool, interesting part of the world till that monster/abomination religion came along and turned everything into crap.

    I’d like to turn back the clock; Zoraoasterism in Persia, the Byzantines back big in Turkey, animists and funky people in the Balkans…

    And Isis, Marduk, and the Temple of Sin back in Babylon.

    Actually we are going to have to move Baghdad about a 100 miles and rename it. And those Shias are gonna sh*t when they see the new order. Shame Hussein is gone, that’s one man who would have gotten my vision and been on board.

    Then we’ll have cat worshipers and 220 million gods in Egypt (trust me this place gave India a run for it’s money)…

    A man can dream. Of course in my fantasy middle east you’d find Christianity in only one place, Byzantium. I’m totally cool with Judaism being in Israel though.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig

    A country like Iran, or any of the middle eastern countries don’t have experience with commerce?
     
    Commerce and finance are not the same thing, Sunbeam. Commerce means trading real goods; finance means playing shell games with money.

    Here's my own hypothesis regarding religion and finance: Historically, both Islam and the Catholic Church forbid usury; the Jews and Protestants, in general, did not. It makes perfect sense then that the latter would have a greater cultural affinity for finance than the former.

    Anatoly, didn't the Orthodox Church also ban usury?

    Regarding the Buddhists, Confucians, Animists, etc., I have no general hypothesis to offer.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bliss
    If the Protestant nations did the best, the Hindu nations (India and Nepal) did the worst. That seems to be the only correlation.

    What also stands out is Subsaharan Africa doing much better than the Indian Subcontinent and West Asia. And Bhutan, Botswana and Burma doing better than China, Japan and Russia.

    And right on schedule, you swallow all the nonsense like mother’s milk.

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  • If the Protestant nations did the best, the Hindu nations (India and Nepal) did the worst. That seems to be the only correlation.

    What also stands out is Subsaharan Africa doing much better than the Indian Subcontinent and West Asia. And Bhutan, Botswana and Burma doing better than China, Japan and Russia.

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    And right on schedule, you swallow all the nonsense like mother's milk.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Sampling in poor countries is so inadequate that 90% of the results of such surveys are nonsense.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The only results from poor countries to trust is IQ tests.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • In my nearly 20 years experience as a Russian living in the West, I have found that almost all my fellows can be reduced to five basic types: 1) The White Russian; 2) The Sovok Jew; 3) The Egghead Emigre; 4) Natasha Gold-Digger; 5) Putin's Expat. My background and qualifications to write on this topic?...
  • […] communists, and nationalists) Vladimir Putin as a civic nationalist and his economic policies The 5 Types of Russian American Misconception that Americans and Westerners have about Russia The Soviet Parallels of Fishtown’s […]

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • […] communist, and nationalist) Vladimir Putin as a civic nationalist and his economic policies The 5 Types of Russian American Misconception that Americans and Westerners have about Russia The Soviet Parallels of Fishtown’s […]

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • […] communist, and nationalist) Vladimir Putin as a civic nationalist and his economic policies The 5 Types of Russian American Misconception that Americans and Westerners have about Russia The Soviet Parallels of […]

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  • The vast majority of the phone conversations I have with people are either on cell phones of via Skype. One of the consequences of this is the changing of the norms and expectations which accrued with telephone usage over the 20th century. For example, I don't really know anyone's number (does anyone know anyone's "Skype...
  • I thought it was weird the first time someone told me they were impressed that I had a 310 area code. Not all of that exchange area is prestigious neighborhoods, I could have been living in Lawndale for all they knew. Reminds me of Paul Fussell’s book “Class” where an English nobleman had a middle-class guest thrown out of a party for remarking what a fine set of antique dining chairs he had. What cheek! Fellow praised my chairs!!

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  • @Steve Sailer
    I wonder if the Wolf of Wall Street guy out on Long Island had some scam where he got a 212 phone number for his "Stratton Oakmont" bucket shop.

    You can buy them legally now. You don’t even have to be in New York.

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  • @Steve Sailer
    Prestige area codes are from the rotary dial era when it took longer to dial a high number, so area codes with lots of national headquarters and thus lots of inbound dialing got low numbers:

    New York: 212
    Chicago: 312
    Los Angeles: 213
    etc.

    So Dallas (214) was more prestigious in the ’50s than San Francisco (415)? I would’ve thought the opposite

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  • @SFG
    I thought about that, but wasn't 202 supposed to be a partner prestige code to Manhattan's 212? It is true that 0 is all the way at the end.

    When did rotary phones die out? I vaguely remember my parents having one.

    I hung to my rotary dial phones well into the 80s, because the old AT&T phone companies charged extra for non-rotary dial phones (which they called “touch tone”). I only abandoned them because my wife threw a fit about the phones.

    When my daughter started college in 2003, I got her a cell phone in the area code of the school, so that her friends who did not have cell phones could call her without long distance surcharges. When her brother started in 2007, he just kept the phone he had been using at home as land lines were by then irrelevant.

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  • @j mct
    There is one little bit of history about as to why NYers might be a bit more into their area code that people in other places.

    Back in the day, 212 was the area code for all the boroughs of NY. Then they started up the 718 area code that was for Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island, with the Bronx following a couple of years later IIRC. Back then there was a saying that some one was 'B&T' which was short for 'Bridge and Tunnel crowd', as for people one saw in a fashionable bar or club in Manhattan, and one did not want to be B&T. One of the weirdest things for a NYer of a certain age, like me, is that Brooklyn is now fashionable in that people from somewhere else view it as aspirational destination, it rams home the point about the impermanence of things in the world, how on earth could something as weird as Brooklyn becoming cool happen. Nothing said B&T more loudly than a 718 phone number, a 718 number really would kill one's chances with a lot of women in bars right then and there, so the 212 phone number thing became locally important to NYers in a cultural sort of way.

    Lots of stuff happened to phone numbers since then, first they added 917 for cell phones, 646 and the like. 212 still matters for financial business, real finance firms have a 212 area code, people from Silicon Valley do not want to talk to bucket shops from somewhere in NYC that isn't Manhattan. I suppose all this will eventually go away, but I think NYers and ex NYers being a bit more into their phone numbers is from that.

    Back in 2000, I suggested to my niece who was moving to Los Angeles from the Bay Area to work in television that the San Fernando Valley was less expensive and home to most of the TV studios, but she refused categorically to have an 818 area code.

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  • @j mct
    There is one little bit of history about as to why NYers might be a bit more into their area code that people in other places.

    Back in the day, 212 was the area code for all the boroughs of NY. Then they started up the 718 area code that was for Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island, with the Bronx following a couple of years later IIRC. Back then there was a saying that some one was 'B&T' which was short for 'Bridge and Tunnel crowd', as for people one saw in a fashionable bar or club in Manhattan, and one did not want to be B&T. One of the weirdest things for a NYer of a certain age, like me, is that Brooklyn is now fashionable in that people from somewhere else view it as aspirational destination, it rams home the point about the impermanence of things in the world, how on earth could something as weird as Brooklyn becoming cool happen. Nothing said B&T more loudly than a 718 phone number, a 718 number really would kill one's chances with a lot of women in bars right then and there, so the 212 phone number thing became locally important to NYers in a cultural sort of way.

    Lots of stuff happened to phone numbers since then, first they added 917 for cell phones, 646 and the like. 212 still matters for financial business, real finance firms have a 212 area code, people from Silicon Valley do not want to talk to bucket shops from somewhere in NYC that isn't Manhattan. I suppose all this will eventually go away, but I think NYers and ex NYers being a bit more into their phone numbers is from that.

    I wonder if the Wolf of Wall Street guy out on Long Island had some scam where he got a 212 phone number for his “Stratton Oakmont” bucket shop.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SFG
    You can buy them legally now. You don't even have to be in New York.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @j mct
    I generally never double check via google things that I distinctly remember being true, because I am pretty good at remembering correctly, but since I had a brain fart a few of Z's posts ago about the Moslem conquest of North Africa I decided to double check if I was right about the Bronx not initially being 718. I was right, so I suppose I will go back to my old habit of commenting without a net, but the article that came up on google was pretty interesting.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1984/02/16/nyregion/718-area-code-for-brooklyn-queens-and-staten-island-gains-approval.html

    In the article, which is from 1984, it said that some people said that the 718 area code would stigmatize people who had it and though that sounds like BS, the people who thought that were actually right.

    Yup. When Manhattan got over 10 million #s and they were going to have to split the 212 area code, they were initially going to have to do a geographic split, but so many Manhattanites complained they decided to give the 646 area code to new numbers only. So a 212 actually does mean you’ve been in the area for a while. I’d imagine there are businesses where it actually matters.

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  • I generally never double check via google things that I distinctly remember being true, because I am pretty good at remembering correctly, but since I had a brain fart a few of Z’s posts ago about the Moslem conquest of North Africa I decided to double check if I was right about the Bronx not initially being 718. I was right, so I suppose I will go back to my old habit of commenting without a net, but the article that came up on google was pretty interesting.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1984/02/16/nyregion/718-area-code-for-brooklyn-queens-and-staten-island-gains-approval.html

    In the article, which is from 1984, it said that some people said that the 718 area code would stigmatize people who had it and though that sounds like BS, the people who thought that were actually right.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SFG
    Yup. When Manhattan got over 10 million #s and they were going to have to split the 212 area code, they were initially going to have to do a geographic split, but so many Manhattanites complained they decided to give the 646 area code to new numbers only. So a 212 actually does mean you've been in the area for a while. I'd imagine there are businesses where it actually matters.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • There is one little bit of history about as to why NYers might be a bit more into their area code that people in other places.

    Back in the day, 212 was the area code for all the boroughs of NY. Then they started up the 718 area code that was for Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island, with the Bronx following a couple of years later IIRC. Back then there was a saying that some one was ‘B&T’ which was short for ‘Bridge and Tunnel crowd’, as for people one saw in a fashionable bar or club in Manhattan, and one did not want to be B&T. One of the weirdest things for a NYer of a certain age, like me, is that Brooklyn is now fashionable in that people from somewhere else view it as aspirational destination, it rams home the point about the impermanence of things in the world, how on earth could something as weird as Brooklyn becoming cool happen. Nothing said B&T more loudly than a 718 phone number, a 718 number really would kill one’s chances with a lot of women in bars right then and there, so the 212 phone number thing became locally important to NYers in a cultural sort of way.

    Lots of stuff happened to phone numbers since then, first they added 917 for cell phones, 646 and the like. 212 still matters for financial business, real finance firms have a 212 area code, people from Silicon Valley do not want to talk to bucket shops from somewhere in NYC that isn’t Manhattan. I suppose all this will eventually go away, but I think NYers and ex NYers being a bit more into their phone numbers is from that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I wonder if the Wolf of Wall Street guy out on Long Island had some scam where he got a 212 phone number for his "Stratton Oakmont" bucket shop.
    , @Steve Sailer
    Back in 2000, I suggested to my niece who was moving to Los Angeles from the Bay Area to work in television that the San Fernando Valley was less expensive and home to most of the TV studios, but she refused categorically to have an 818 area code.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Steve Sailer
    You can add up the digits in area codes, with 0 counting as ten: Thus, Manhattan was 212 or 5, Chicago and Los Angeles were 6, Detroit 7, and St. Louis 8. Washington DC was a pretty bad 202 or 14 back then, because who needed to call Washington?

    Keeping in mind that 0 was the worst number on a rotary phone, Wikipedia's history of Florida area codes is testament to how much has changed population-wise:

    "When the first area code plan was introduced in 1947, the entire state was given the area code 305. In 1953, the area code 813 was introduced for the western coast of Florida, and 904 was introduced for northern Florida in 1965. In 1988, area code 407 was introduced for the Orlando area."

    So Orlando was 21 when it was finally introduced four decades into the area code era, while St. Louis was 8.

    I thought about that, but wasn’t 202 supposed to be a partner prestige code to Manhattan’s 212? It is true that 0 is all the way at the end.

    When did rotary phones die out? I vaguely remember my parents having one.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Walter Sobchak
    I hung to my rotary dial phones well into the 80s, because the old AT&T phone companies charged extra for non-rotary dial phones (which they called "touch tone"). I only abandoned them because my wife threw a fit about the phones.

    When my daughter started college in 2003, I got her a cell phone in the area code of the school, so that her friends who did not have cell phones could call her without long distance surcharges. When her brother started in 2007, he just kept the phone he had been using at home as land lines were by then irrelevant.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sgt. Joe Friday
    "In 1st World countries the residential landline phone is going the way of the pager."

    For residential customers, yes. If you're a business and your only line is cell phone, people will be wary of you.

    “For residential customers, yes. If you’re a business and your only line is cell phone, people will be wary of you.”

    They will think you are a drug dealer?

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  • @Jefferson
    "The vast majority of the phone conversations I have with people are either on cell phones of via Skype."

    ALL of my phone conversations are either through Skype or a Smartphone. I have not had a Landline Phone in my home since 2011.

    In 1st World countries the residential landline phone is going the way of the pager.

    “In 1st World countries the residential landline phone is going the way of the pager.”

    For residential customers, yes. If you’re a business and your only line is cell phone, people will be wary of you.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "For residential customers, yes. If you’re a business and your only line is cell phone, people will be wary of you."

    They will think you are a drug dealer?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Jefferson
    "The vast majority of the phone conversations I have with people are either on cell phones of via Skype."

    ALL of my phone conversations are either through Skype or a Smartphone. I have not had a Landline Phone in my home since 2011.

    In 1st World countries the residential landline phone is going the way of the pager.

    This is true only in areas of 1st world countries with a 21st C 1st world infrastructure.

    I live in rural NH (5 miles from town), and until maybe 5 years ago, cell service did not work at my home. It does now with Verizon but no other carriers and even Verizion is a bit spotty. DSL (or satellite) is the best we can do for the internet, and it has been going out for extended periods pretty regularly this summer; this makes skype a bit iffy: no cable where I live (though a mile away from me I think it is available).

    I was talking to a woman recently who about lives about 15-20 miles away in small-town VT, and she told me that she has not had a landline for several years, but the reason for that is that in her town, the whole landline system would regularly go down in heavy rain.

    So, as they say, YMMV.

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  • “In 1st World countries the residential landline phone is going the way of the pager.”

    And perhaps even more in 3rd World countries, where you don’t even have a legacy of old landline phones

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  • There was a webcomic (xkcd, maybe?) joking how everyones celphone basically preserves where they lived circa 2005, which in my observation holds pretty true, at least for people in my demographic.

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  • “The vast majority of the phone conversations I have with people are either on cell phones of via Skype.”

    ALL of my phone conversations are either through Skype or a Smartphone. I have not had a Landline Phone in my home since 2011.

    In 1st World countries the residential landline phone is going the way of the pager.

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    • Replies: @marcel proust
    This is true only in areas of 1st world countries with a 21st C 1st world infrastructure.

    I live in rural NH (5 miles from town), and until maybe 5 years ago, cell service did not work at my home. It does now with Verizon but no other carriers and even Verizion is a bit spotty. DSL (or satellite) is the best we can do for the internet, and it has been going out for extended periods pretty regularly this summer; this makes skype a bit iffy: no cable where I live (though a mile away from me I think it is available).

    I was talking to a woman recently who about lives about 15-20 miles away in small-town VT, and she told me that she has not had a landline for several years, but the reason for that is that in her town, the whole landline system would regularly go down in heavy rain.

    So, as they say, YMMV.
    , @Sgt. Joe Friday
    "In 1st World countries the residential landline phone is going the way of the pager."

    For residential customers, yes. If you're a business and your only line is cell phone, people will be wary of you.
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  • @Sgt. Joe Friday
    Yup, here in southern California people from certain parts of the Inland Empire are referred to by people in coastal areas as "909ers." It's not a compliment.

    A similar situation obtains in Canada. The region of suburbs surrounding the City of Toronto is known as “the 905″, and its residents (about 4M of them) as “905ers”, after its area code (which split off from the main southern Ontario code some time back). It’s not necessarily pejorative though.

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  • @SFG
    It's a fun little piece of Americana, because it tells you what the big cities were *in the fifties*. Cleveland's 216, Detroit's 313, and St. Louis's 314 all hint at better times.

    Nitpick: while you're probably right about *churn* (I still have my old NY cellphone #), the *proportion* of prestige codes shouldn't change, right? If anything it should go down after time as the later, non-prestige area codes are filled (the country's population keeps increasing).

    The Pennsylvania Hotel still has (212) PE6-5000 after all these years.

    You can add up the digits in area codes, with 0 counting as ten: Thus, Manhattan was 212 or 5, Chicago and Los Angeles were 6, Detroit 7, and St. Louis 8. Washington DC was a pretty bad 202 or 14 back then, because who needed to call Washington?

    Keeping in mind that 0 was the worst number on a rotary phone, Wikipedia’s history of Florida area codes is testament to how much has changed population-wise:

    “When the first area code plan was introduced in 1947, the entire state was given the area code 305. In 1953, the area code 813 was introduced for the western coast of Florida, and 904 was introduced for northern Florida in 1965. In 1988, area code 407 was introduced for the Orlando area.”

    So Orlando was 21 when it was finally introduced four decades into the area code era, while St. Louis was 8.

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    • Replies: @SFG
    I thought about that, but wasn't 202 supposed to be a partner prestige code to Manhattan's 212? It is true that 0 is all the way at the end.

    When did rotary phones die out? I vaguely remember my parents having one.
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  • I would think that hipsters would want to buck the trend and get a number with an obscure AC to better establish street cred: e.g., 907, 307, 406, 906 or 423.

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  • @Steve Sailer
    Prestige area codes are from the rotary dial era when it took longer to dial a high number, so area codes with lots of national headquarters and thus lots of inbound dialing got low numbers:

    New York: 212
    Chicago: 312
    Los Angeles: 213
    etc.

    It’s a fun little piece of Americana, because it tells you what the big cities were *in the fifties*. Cleveland’s 216, Detroit’s 313, and St. Louis’s 314 all hint at better times.

    Nitpick: while you’re probably right about *churn* (I still have my old NY cellphone #), the *proportion* of prestige codes shouldn’t change, right? If anything it should go down after time as the later, non-prestige area codes are filled (the country’s population keeps increasing).

    The Pennsylvania Hotel still has (212) PE6-5000 after all these years.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    You can add up the digits in area codes, with 0 counting as ten: Thus, Manhattan was 212 or 5, Chicago and Los Angeles were 6, Detroit 7, and St. Louis 8. Washington DC was a pretty bad 202 or 14 back then, because who needed to call Washington?

    Keeping in mind that 0 was the worst number on a rotary phone, Wikipedia's history of Florida area codes is testament to how much has changed population-wise:

    "When the first area code plan was introduced in 1947, the entire state was given the area code 305. In 1953, the area code 813 was introduced for the western coast of Florida, and 904 was introduced for northern Florida in 1965. In 1988, area code 407 was introduced for the Orlando area."

    So Orlando was 21 when it was finally introduced four decades into the area code era, while St. Louis was 8.
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  • Prestige area codes are from the rotary dial era when it took longer to dial a high number, so area codes with lots of national headquarters and thus lots of inbound dialing got low numbers:

    New York: 212
    Chicago: 312
    Los Angeles: 213
    etc.

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    • Replies: @SFG
    It's a fun little piece of Americana, because it tells you what the big cities were *in the fifties*. Cleveland's 216, Detroit's 313, and St. Louis's 314 all hint at better times.

    Nitpick: while you're probably right about *churn* (I still have my old NY cellphone #), the *proportion* of prestige codes shouldn't change, right? If anything it should go down after time as the later, non-prestige area codes are filled (the country's population keeps increasing).

    The Pennsylvania Hotel still has (212) PE6-5000 after all these years.

    , @Hare Krishna
    So Dallas (214) was more prestigious in the '50s than San Francisco (415)? I would've thought the opposite
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  • Yup, here in southern California people from certain parts of the Inland Empire are referred to by people in coastal areas as “909ers.” It’s not a compliment.

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    • Replies: @Joe Q.
    A similar situation obtains in Canada. The region of suburbs surrounding the City of Toronto is known as "the 905", and its residents (about 4M of them) as "905ers", after its area code (which split off from the main southern Ontario code some time back). It's not necessarily pejorative though.
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  • there’s always a relevant Seinfeld episode:

    Elaine has to get a new number but wants to keep the same area code to preserve her “status.”

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  • Since the last time I covered Levada's opinion polls was a whopping half a year back, I reckon its time to make an update on what Russians are thinking since then. A comprehensive kind of post, like what I did in Lovely Levada (check it out, if you haven't already!) and hopefully a good resource...
  • […] in 2014, but this is still lower than the figure for (pre-crisis) 2012, when it was at 33%, to say nothing of the early 2000s (higher than 50%) or the 1990s (around 80%). The percentage of Russians who […]

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  • In my nearly 20 years experience as a Russian living in the West, I have found that almost all my fellows can be reduced to five basic types: 1) The White Russian; 2) The Sovok Jew; 3) The Egghead Emigre; 4) Natasha Gold-Digger; 5) Putin's Expat. My background and qualifications to write on this topic?...
  • @Scowspi
    Hats off, sir – this is another Karlin Klassic post.

    Being now in the Chicago area again after several years in Moscow, I see 4 of your 5 categories in evidence here (in America’s most Slavic city). The missing category is White Russians: there are undoubtedly a few around here, but they are not numerous enough to form a distinct community. My vague impression is that category 2 is the largest, and that many other “Russians” are actually Ukrainian or some other type of post-Soviet. It’s largely a cultural/linguistic identity. It would be interesting to do a regional breakdown as to who lives where. You mentioned Brighton Beach (a rather obvious example), but Orthodox (or White) Russians have formed communities in some places that seem unlikely on the surface, like Florida. (A friend of mine, now a fairly well-known editor/foreign policy analyst, came from a Florida-based Russian family.)

    A minor (but telling) point: Sergei Dovlatov didn’t consider himself a dissident (his political credo was “After Communists, I hate anti-Communists the most”). Also, he was half-Armenian. I mention this just to blur your categories a little.

    “(in America’s most Slavic city)”

    Other Great Lakes cities also have large Polish-American populations.

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  • @AP
    Almost every American family has a car - even very many (but not all) poor people. The poor just have old cars that require frequent repairs (so from the perspective of auto ownership poor Americans are like Soviet-era middle class Russians with Moscvitch cars which required frequent repairs even while new). In America there are over 800 cars per thousand people (including elderly and children who cannot drive). I suspect that virtually 100% of people in the top 80% of income own cars, who need them (Manhattanites don't) and even among the poor, half probably have them. Only truly indigent ones - many of whom are chronic mentally ill or alcoholics or junkies - as a rule don't have them.

    You are correct that living without a car in the USA, other than in the urban pockets, is like being handicapped.

    One young civil engineer in my office briefly relied on public transportation and the Zipcar car-sharing service, here in Chicago. I relied on public transportation and the occasional rental myself for about five years when I was a lot younger than I am now, also in Chicago. My aunt and uncle, with three kids, on the Southwest Side, did the same in the 1950s and 1960s (when bus lines ran all night long, and very frequently; only a few still do.) Very few middle class people do this, and in all three cases above, we relented and bought cars, although my aunt and uncle kept up the practice for 20 years, more or less. It’s almost unknown outside the big cities.

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  • @AP
    Very nice, very accurate article. I have known all of those types of people you've mentioned, although my wife and many people whom we know are none of those (well, very loosely "eggheads" - students who came in on scholarships rather than adult professors).

    You could also mention the kids of politicians/gangsters who came over in the pre-Putin era, I knew quite a few when I was an undergraduate in the early 90's. These guys' parents paid for their kids' tuition with cash. They never studied, obviously, but bought cars with cash and no drivers' licenses, (in the early 90's the elites' kids could afford new Corollas, not new BMWs), shoplifted like crazy even though they didn't have to, brawled with Americans, listened to Sektor Gaza, used "bled" as every other word, etc. Many returned to Russia or the other republics and their fortunes have grown tremendously since that time. The "eggheads" - students on scholarships, as well as professors, at the university really felt embarrassed by them.

    How much better is a BMW than a Toyota anyway?

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  • @Alex
    Oh - forgot the most important "Sovok" quality - they won't call anyone "Sir"

    Sir, or Ma’am, as the case may be, is a good name for someone you don’t know from Adam, or Eve, as the case may be. It’s better than “Hey, you!” I remember a George Will column where he quotes a Frenchman saying, in astonishment, ‘In America, they call waiters “Sir!”‘

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  • - Genesis The above is from a relatively widely circulated post from OKCupid. It has been argued that this post saved the dating website OKCupid, and launched the book Dataclysm. Over five years on the underlying biases have not changed, and if anything gotten more notable. I think the fact that OKCupid has become a...
  • @thinkingabout it
    It isn't surprising that Asian women get such high scores, since they are the most neotenized race and therefore have the most appealing females. But when considering marriage, one must really think over whether they want their descendants to look Asian, especially their sons. From the table above, it seems like looking like an East Asian man is a terrible handicap in a multiracial dating market, perhaps as bad as being bald or fat (I say this as a balding ex-fatty who has dated both Asian and White women in the past).

    I think the Caucasoid races, from White Europeans to Middle Easterners to most Indians, have the best of both worlds. Their men aren't too ugly, their women aren't unbangable. Even here there is a cline, with European males being more attractive than Middle eastern males who are in turn more attractive than Indian males, and the reverse order being true for females.

    Of course my view may be influenced by my own genetic biases. Like the first commenter on this thread noted, East Asians may consider all other races to be too masculine/chimp-like.

    The comment of Caucasoid races, to wit, “most Indians” is comical to say the least. We are confusing the Media TV image of South Asians vs the rank and file citizens, who are definitely not European. The bottom line for mate choice, is economic. No doubt that personal attributes, likes/dislike and affinity for the usual characteristics of decency, morality and some level of “niceness” of the two parties. Let us remember that the Japanese Americans were the most loyal of all Americans (immigrant group) but that did not prevent them from being villanized and sent of to camps because they were a threat to the white man’s view of USA heaven.

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