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    With James D. Watson back in the news, it's worth pointing out that his older and probably even more brilliant partner in the discovery of the structure of DNA, the late Francis Crick, was also a crimethinker about race and intelligence. Back on my blog in 2008, I excerpted letters written by Crick strongly defending...
  • @candid_observer
    Yeah, it's hard not to conclude that Franklin just hit the wall in her understanding when it came to putting together a model of DNA. Her famous photo 51 was taken 7-8 months before Watson was allowed a peek at it, and he and Crick immediately knew how to make use of it. They put together their model within about 2 months. Franklin was really going nowhere with the information implicit in photo 51, and likely would never have put together a model left to her own devices.

    One of the important cognitive abilities that males really do have in greater measure, even on average, than females is spatio-visual ability. It would seem obviously at work in such 3D model building.

    It wan’t necessarily a lack of brainpower or creative thinking. I believe a weird echo of Franklin’s proposed model for DNA was later discovered in the genetic structure of an isolated and aberrant species. Some people think a certain clever people are naturally deficient at seeing the deeper meaning in some types of visual results. That as much as her being a woman may explain her failure to draw the correct conclusion.

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  • anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I would take the IQ stuff with a grain of salt:

    Another interesting question is, even if Watson and Crick just had the “average intelligence of PhDs”, what was the effective IQ of the two of them together? That is, are 2 130 IQ guys totally up on their field and “in the zone” cooperating with each other worth more than one IQ 140 guy? One IQ 150 guy? How about one 160 IQ guy who has a hard time working with others?

    It might be easy to overlook a sort of natural skill for intellectual cooperation and teamwork, at multiple scales. For instance, I don’t think anybody has ever accused the Wright brothers of being the intellectual giants of their age. Yet not only did they make that first flight, but they “aced the problem”, if you will. I don’t know if they ever took an IQ test, but they sure spent a lot of time making gliders, engines, and airplanes. (They both never even graduated from high school.)

    Samuel Langley most likely, almost certainly, had a higher IQ than the Wright brothers. But his airplane, which cost $50,000 government dollars, was a total flop, while the Wright’s plane was a technical success; two years after their first flight they were making half-hour flights.

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  • “James Watson Is Auctioning Off His Nobel Prize. Please Do Not Bid On It.”

    Zuckerberg is a billionaire he can easily go to $4 25o 000.

    (Left out a zero!)

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  • @Anonymous
    Slate runs with the occasion to remind us of that the Bell Curve and Nicholas Wade are debunked, and Watson was wrong.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/12/james_watson_selling_nobel_prize_dna_structure_discoverer_s_history_of_racism.html

    Umm. Wonder why the title of the article was changed. Original title which was preserved On Facebook (if it is still there),

    https://www.facebook.com/Slate/posts/10152818019236438

    was “James Watson Is Auctioning Off His Nobel Prize. Please Do Not Bid On It.”
    Was it because the fetching price of $4.1 million was much more than the expected prize of $2.5M to $3.5M ? And the article reporting the auction result now have to be written by an intern ??

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  • @Sean
    " Rosalind Franklin was staring at it and not getting a very basic thing out of her own data. If she were a truly competent crystallographer, she would have recognized the significance of the symmetry observed. But it took Crick to do that"

    W&C's first attempt at the structure of DNA was blown out the water by Rosalind Frankin when they invited Wilkins and his assistant Franklin to look at it. As a result Bragg the head of their lab took W&C off the DNA project. A year later Pauling ignored the same objection Franklin had made when it was made by Chargaff (partly because Pauling disliked Chargaff) and Pauling hence came up with something similar to Watson and Crick's first effort. Delighted that Pauling had failed, Bragg (a rival of Pauling) put Watson and Crick back on the DNA project and they came up with the answer. However, Pauling whose greater structural knowledge would likely have enabled him to come up with the correct solution very quickly if he had seen Franklin's 's work, lost his best chance when he didn't attend a scientific conference (which Watson and Crick did attend) at which Franklyn presented her X ray results on DNA

    Yeah, it’s hard not to conclude that Franklin just hit the wall in her understanding when it came to putting together a model of DNA. Her famous photo 51 was taken 7-8 months before Watson was allowed a peek at it, and he and Crick immediately knew how to make use of it. They put together their model within about 2 months. Franklin was really going nowhere with the information implicit in photo 51, and likely would never have put together a model left to her own devices.

    One of the important cognitive abilities that males really do have in greater measure, even on average, than females is spatio-visual ability. It would seem obviously at work in such 3D model building.

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    • Replies: @Sean
    It wan't necessarily a lack of brainpower or creative thinking. I believe a weird echo of Franklin's proposed model for DNA was later discovered in the genetic structure of an isolated and aberrant species. Some people think a certain clever people are naturally deficient at seeing the deeper meaning in some types of visual results. That as much as her being a woman may explain her failure to draw the correct conclusion.
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  • @reiner Tor

    Half black guys in Hungary
     
    He's American, just his mother is Hungarian, but he was born and grew up in the States, currently living in Chicago.

    He cannot even speak Hungarian, English is his only language as far as I know.

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  • @Steve Sailer
    "my black American friend was there criticizing Freeman on the grounds that ‘simply because he never experienced it racism is still very real.’

    Morgan Freeman, who was born in 1937 in Memphis, very much experienced old fashioned racism. Half black guys in Hungary shouldn't be condescending to Freeman's knowledge of how things have changed.

    Half black guys in Hungary

    He’s American, just his mother is Hungarian, but he was born and grew up in the States, currently living in Chicago.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    He cannot even speak Hungarian, English is his only language as far as I know.
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  • @reiner Tor
    The only American black of my acquaintance is half-white (Hungarian), and I once spent almost an hour talking to him. It was a pleasant experience and I would bet big money that he is well to the right side of the white bell curve.

    And I checked his Facebook posts and comments because I was interested - he believes Garner and Brown were more or less innocent victims, even if his comments mostly seem to be along the "police brutality vs innocent (or at least just a little bit faulty) citizens" angle. He also seems to be in total agreement with those of his white American Facebook friends who happen to comment on these same threads. When a few months ago Morgan Freeman criticized race-baiting (perhaps he really is a Magic Negro in real life?), my black American friend was there criticizing Freeman on the grounds that 'simply because he never experienced it racism is still very real.'

    So while it might be true, intelligence per se can only be part of the problem.

    “my black American friend was there criticizing Freeman on the grounds that ‘simply because he never experienced it racism is still very real.’

    Morgan Freeman, who was born in 1937 in Memphis, very much experienced old fashioned racism. Half black guys in Hungary shouldn’t be condescending to Freeman’s knowledge of how things have changed.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    Half black guys in Hungary
     
    He's American, just his mother is Hungarian, but he was born and grew up in the States, currently living in Chicago.
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  • @Pat Boyle
    I have a topical example of crime-think. Although no one so far has dared to say it in public.

    We have this conundrum of black opinions about Michael Brown versus white opinions. White people are stupefied by how the blacks in the streets can ignore the clear evidence from the Grand Jury.

    I have a simple explanation. The average black in America has an IQ of 85. The demonstrators are likely to be on the left side of that distribution - say 75 or 80. Meanwhile the white people who follow the news on TV are likely to be smarter than average. They probably have IQs of 110 or more. This is a big gap.

    I understand this sort of thing from personal experience. The readers of this blog may never have even met someone that stupid. I was in the Army. The old Army that drafted anyone who could breathe. I slept in the same barracks with real morons. Those people would believe anything - just like the people who believe that Garner and Brown were innocent victims.

    The only American black of my acquaintance is half-white (Hungarian), and I once spent almost an hour talking to him. It was a pleasant experience and I would bet big money that he is well to the right side of the white bell curve.

    And I checked his Facebook posts and comments because I was interested – he believes Garner and Brown were more or less innocent victims, even if his comments mostly seem to be along the “police brutality vs innocent (or at least just a little bit faulty) citizens” angle. He also seems to be in total agreement with those of his white American Facebook friends who happen to comment on these same threads. When a few months ago Morgan Freeman criticized race-baiting (perhaps he really is a Magic Negro in real life?), my black American friend was there criticizing Freeman on the grounds that ‘simply because he never experienced it racism is still very real.’

    So while it might be true, intelligence per se can only be part of the problem.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    "my black American friend was there criticizing Freeman on the grounds that ‘simply because he never experienced it racism is still very real.’

    Morgan Freeman, who was born in 1937 in Memphis, very much experienced old fashioned racism. Half black guys in Hungary shouldn't be condescending to Freeman's knowledge of how things have changed.

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  • ” Rosalind Franklin was staring at it and not getting a very basic thing out of her own data. If she were a truly competent crystallographer, she would have recognized the significance of the symmetry observed. But it took Crick to do that”

    W&C’s first attempt at the structure of DNA was blown out the water by Rosalind Frankin when they invited Wilkins and his assistant Franklin to look at it. As a result Bragg the head of their lab took W&C off the DNA project. A year later Pauling ignored the same objection Franklin had made when it was made by Chargaff (partly because Pauling disliked Chargaff) and Pauling hence came up with something similar to Watson and Crick’s first effort. Delighted that Pauling had failed, Bragg (a rival of Pauling) put Watson and Crick back on the DNA project and they came up with the answer. However, Pauling whose greater structural knowledge would likely have enabled him to come up with the correct solution very quickly if he had seen Franklin’s ‘s work, lost his best chance when he didn’t attend a scientific conference (which Watson and Crick did attend) at which Franklyn presented her X ray results on DNA

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    • Replies: @candid_observer
    Yeah, it's hard not to conclude that Franklin just hit the wall in her understanding when it came to putting together a model of DNA. Her famous photo 51 was taken 7-8 months before Watson was allowed a peek at it, and he and Crick immediately knew how to make use of it. They put together their model within about 2 months. Franklin was really going nowhere with the information implicit in photo 51, and likely would never have put together a model left to her own devices.

    One of the important cognitive abilities that males really do have in greater measure, even on average, than females is spatio-visual ability. It would seem obviously at work in such 3D model building.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @syonredux

    Both Crick and Watson had modest IQs– 115 & 124, respectively– and were not nice human beings.
     
    I would take the IQ stuff with a grain of salt:

    Arthur Jensen:

    I don’t take anecdotal report of the IQs of famous persons at all seriously. They are often fictitious and are used to make a point - typically a put-down of IQ test and the whole idea that individual differences in intelligence can be ranked or measured. James Watson once claimed an IQ of 115; the daughter of another very famous Nobelist claimed that her father would absolutely “flunk” any IQ test. It’s all ridiculous.
     

    I’m also a bit skeptical of Richard Feynman’s reportedly lowish (125) IQ score. Apparently it’s based on just one test at high school, after which Feynman disliked IQ tests of all kinds, and never took another one.

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  • I have a topical example of crime-think. Although no one so far has dared to say it in public.

    We have this conundrum of black opinions about Michael Brown versus white opinions. White people are stupefied by how the blacks in the streets can ignore the clear evidence from the Grand Jury.

    I have a simple explanation. The average black in America has an IQ of 85. The demonstrators are likely to be on the left side of that distribution – say 75 or 80. Meanwhile the white people who follow the news on TV are likely to be smarter than average. They probably have IQs of 110 or more. This is a big gap.

    I understand this sort of thing from personal experience. The readers of this blog may never have even met someone that stupid. I was in the Army. The old Army that drafted anyone who could breathe. I slept in the same barracks with real morons. Those people would believe anything – just like the people who believe that Garner and Brown were innocent victims.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    The only American black of my acquaintance is half-white (Hungarian), and I once spent almost an hour talking to him. It was a pleasant experience and I would bet big money that he is well to the right side of the white bell curve.

    And I checked his Facebook posts and comments because I was interested - he believes Garner and Brown were more or less innocent victims, even if his comments mostly seem to be along the "police brutality vs innocent (or at least just a little bit faulty) citizens" angle. He also seems to be in total agreement with those of his white American Facebook friends who happen to comment on these same threads. When a few months ago Morgan Freeman criticized race-baiting (perhaps he really is a Magic Negro in real life?), my black American friend was there criticizing Freeman on the grounds that 'simply because he never experienced it racism is still very real.'

    So while it might be true, intelligence per se can only be part of the problem.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    Both Crick and Watson had modest IQs– 115 & 124, respectively– and were not nice human beings.
     
    I would take the IQ stuff with a grain of salt:

    Arthur Jensen:

    I don’t take anecdotal report of the IQs of famous persons at all seriously. They are often fictitious and are used to make a point - typically a put-down of IQ test and the whole idea that individual differences in intelligence can be ranked or measured. James Watson once claimed an IQ of 115; the daughter of another very famous Nobelist claimed that her father would absolutely “flunk” any IQ test. It’s all ridiculous.
     

    Even leaving aside the issues of creativity and insight, anyone who read Crick’s early papers would understand that there is absolutely no way that he had an IQ of just 124. In fact, it is Crick’s understanding of crystallography (a pretty hard core physics subject) that played crucial role in the double helix discovery. Rosalind Franklin was staring at it and not getting a very basic thing out of her own data. If she were a truly competent crystallographer, she would have recognized the significance of the symmetry observed. But it took Crick to do that.

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  • @Anonymous
    Both Crick and Watson had modest IQs-- 115 & 124, respectively-- and were not nice human beings.

    Both Crick and Watson had modest IQs– 115 & 124, respectively– and were not nice human beings.

    I would take the IQ stuff with a grain of salt:

    Arthur Jensen:

    I don’t take anecdotal report of the IQs of famous persons at all seriously. They are often fictitious and are used to make a point – typically a put-down of IQ test and the whole idea that individual differences in intelligence can be ranked or measured. James Watson once claimed an IQ of 115; the daughter of another very famous Nobelist claimed that her father would absolutely “flunk” any IQ test. It’s all ridiculous.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Even leaving aside the issues of creativity and insight, anyone who read Crick's early papers would understand that there is absolutely no way that he had an IQ of just 124. In fact, it is Crick's understanding of crystallography (a pretty hard core physics subject) that played crucial role in the double helix discovery. Rosalind Franklin was staring at it and not getting a very basic thing out of her own data. If she were a truly competent crystallographer, she would have recognized the significance of the symmetry observed. But it took Crick to do that.
    , @reiner Tor
    I'm also a bit skeptical of Richard Feynman's reportedly lowish (125) IQ score. Apparently it's based on just one test at high school, after which Feynman disliked IQ tests of all kinds, and never took another one.
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  • More on the turmoil at TNR

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/12/the-new-republic-100-r-i-p.php

    Apparently Chris Hughes wants to turn TNR into click bait. Best way to do that is attempt to swish any of us that gets out of line with the Cultural Marxist agenda.

    How many of TNR’s remaining post graduate school and above educated audience really want to read click bait?

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  • @Ed
    Slightly off topic but Coates is reveling in the apparent demise of New Republic because they dared to write articles questioning the intelligence of Blacks.

    Would anyone happen to know what articles he is referring to? I've never read the New a Republic offline.

    https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/status/540634982893772800

    Starting over ten years ago clowns like TNC became the reason that after decades I no long subscribe or pay attention to the Atlantic Monthly.

    Slightly off topic but Coates is reveling in the apparent demise of New Republic because they dared to write articles questioning the intelligence of Blacks.

    I actually subscribed to TNR for over a decade back when they published the Bell Curve issue. Come to think of it, it was one of the few truly brave things TNR ever did.

    TNR is now just a complete bunch of PC Cultural Marxist wimps unable to stand up to a race hustler like TNC.

    Jonathan Chait ‏@jonathanchait 13h13 hours ago

    @tanehisicoates You need to explain why justifable anger at Peretz and Sullivan translates into kicking Foer, Ioffe, Cohn, et al.
    0 replies 0 retweets 7 favorites

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  • @vinteuil
    I guess we will never know whether Crick might have proved a bit more courageous than Watson, when the shit hit the fan.

    He’s old. I don’t blame him. It’s the cretins who attack him.

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  • The New Republic hasn’t been relevant to liberals or Democrats in quite a long time. It’s hardline pro-war slant and constant support for Joe Lieberman and DLC types caused it to become alienated from the mainstream of the party back in the Bush years. Since then it’s struggled to have an influential voice.

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  • Slate runs with the occasion to remind us of that the Bell Curve and Nicholas Wade are debunked, and Watson was wrong.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/12/james_watson_selling_nobel_prize_dna_structure_discoverer_s_history_of_racism.html

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    • Replies: @dixie
    Umm. Wonder why the title of the article was changed. Original title which was preserved On Facebook (if it is still there),
    https://www.facebook.com/Slate/posts/10152818019236438
    was "James Watson Is Auctioning Off His Nobel Prize. Please Do Not Bid On It."
    Was it because the fetching price of $4.1 million was much more than the expected prize of $2.5M to $3.5M ? And the article reporting the auction result now have to be written by an intern ??
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  • @Buzz Mohawk
    I wonder what Rosalind Franklin would have to say about all this.

    I wonder what Rosalind Franklin would have to say about all this.

    She was not involved because she was dead.

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  • anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Both Crick and Watson had modest IQs– 115 & 124, respectively– and were not nice human beings.”

    Which goes to prove that IQ is important–too low an IQ probably cannot be overcome–but that IQ alone isn’t everything. There is a place for the stubborn, bold, courageous, imaginative, maniacally obsessed rascal. And the “working IQ” of social groups is mighty important, such as the social groups surrounding those rascals. (“I have stood on the shoulders of Giants.”) It’s not all about lone genius with an IQ that towers above his fellows, solitary lights who see what the group cannot see. It’s about groups that work “smart”. There were almost certainly nicer people and more intelligent people in the world than all those explorers back in the Age of Exploration, but it was those explorers who forever changed the world.

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  • anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “In brief I think it likely that more than half the difference between the average I.Q. of American whites and Negroes is due to genetic reasons, and will not be eliminated by any foreseeable change in the environment. Moreover I think the social consequences of this are likely to be rather serious unless steps are taken to recognize the situation.” — Francis Crick

    “The most distressing feature of your letter is that it neither gives nor refers to any scientific arguments, but makes unsupported statements of opinion, This, I need hardly remind you, is politics, not science. The voice of established authority, unsupported by evidence or argument, should have no place in science…” — Francis Crick

    “…your point about the I. Q. results on American Indians being mainly due to their cultural tradition… this may be so, but personally I doubt it.” — Francis Crick

    “How do you explain the relatively poor I. Q. performance of the children of middle-class American negroes?” — Francis Crick

    “I. Q. tests do seem to me to be useful, in spite of their obvious limitations, if only because people’s social aspirations are highly correlated with I. Q. That is, if the population as a whole is asked to rank occupations… this ranking is almost perfectly correlated with the average I. Q. of the people in the occupational groups (i.e. doctors have, on average, a higher I.Q. than dustmen).” — Francis Crick

    “What I miss most is constructive approaches to this problem, Can the “environmentalists” set up in an experiment an environment which will make the I. Q. difference disappear? If they can’t do that, then the hope of doing anything on a large scale in a social context is remote.” — Francis Crick

    “…you would do a useful job by refuting his argument point by point.” — Francis Crick

    “I would like to see your plans for research in this field, so one can see how long a period is likely to be involved.” — Francis Crick

    “Why should not a Twins Institute be formed? This would encourage people who have twins to let one of them be adopted by another family. …It is essential to keep track of such cases, and examine them periodically, and this would be the job of the Institute.” — Francis Crick

    “…people have to start thinking out eugenics in a different way. The Nazis gave it a bad name and I think it is time something was done to make it respectable again.” — Francis Crick

    “As to racism, what about negative racism? That is, the acceptance by Universities (like Harvard) of students with considerably lower standards merely because they are black. This policy is certainly going to lead to trouble. Either many of them will drop out, or they will have to be given degrees where white people would be failed.” — Francis Crick

    “…I said that the biological evidence was that all men were not created equal, and it would not only be difficult to try to [un?]do this, but biologically undesirable. As an a[s]ide I said that the evidence for the equality of different races did not really exist. In fact, what little evidence there was suggested racial differences.” — Francis Crick

    “…I would have dwelt on the probable positive differences, such as, for example, the Jews and the Japs, rather than speak only about Negroes. ” — Francis Crick

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  • Both Crick and Watson had modest IQs– 115 & 124, respectively– and were not nice human beings.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Both Crick and Watson had modest IQs– 115 & 124, respectively– and were not nice human beings.
     
    I would take the IQ stuff with a grain of salt:

    Arthur Jensen:

    I don’t take anecdotal report of the IQs of famous persons at all seriously. They are often fictitious and are used to make a point - typically a put-down of IQ test and the whole idea that individual differences in intelligence can be ranked or measured. James Watson once claimed an IQ of 115; the daughter of another very famous Nobelist claimed that her father would absolutely “flunk” any IQ test. It’s all ridiculous.
     
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  • @Anonymous
    We'll never know but I bet that Crick would. Probably a lot more courageous. Like in proportion of their scientific talents. Watson basically did nothing of note post 1953, happily becoming an administrator. Crick did several great things science-wise, kept trying to apply himself at super-hard problems and kept distance from administrative stuff.

    Yes, Crick was pretty much the godfather of molecular biology from 1953 to 1966. After that he moved to neuroscience. However since he lived in the very PC academic environment of San Diego, CA, he probably knew better than to kick that hornet’s nest, James D. Watson on the other hand was renowned for stirring the pot, he made some early forays into un-PC thought but the verbiage was kind of vaguely worded. However as soon as he mentioned Africa it was over, and of course he groveled an apology for running afoul of PC police, which only makes them go into a shark like feeding frenzy. As Steve pointed out with Henry Louis Gates and the Cambridge Police ” Don’t Apologize ” Interesting how no one can even remember that cops name, it’s because he defended himself and defused Gates and Obama completely.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @vinteuil
    I guess we will never know whether Crick might have proved a bit more courageous than Watson, when the shit hit the fan.

    We’ll never know but I bet that Crick would. Probably a lot more courageous. Like in proportion of their scientific talents. Watson basically did nothing of note post 1953, happily becoming an administrator. Crick did several great things science-wise, kept trying to apply himself at super-hard problems and kept distance from administrative stuff.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Unladen Swallow
    Yes, Crick was pretty much the godfather of molecular biology from 1953 to 1966. After that he moved to neuroscience. However since he lived in the very PC academic environment of San Diego, CA, he probably knew better than to kick that hornet's nest, James D. Watson on the other hand was renowned for stirring the pot, he made some early forays into un-PC thought but the verbiage was kind of vaguely worded. However as soon as he mentioned Africa it was over, and of course he groveled an apology for running afoul of PC police, which only makes them go into a shark like feeding frenzy. As Steve pointed out with Henry Louis Gates and the Cambridge Police " Don't Apologize " Interesting how no one can even remember that cops name, it's because he defended himself and defused Gates and Obama completely.
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  • As TNR goes, so goes American liberalism?

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  • I didn’t realize what people were talking about; I’ve since read that Chris Hughes fired Leon Wieseltier and Frank Foer, replacing them with an editor from (gay owned) Gawker.

    That little bitch.

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  • @dearieme
    "a convert to Christianity": of a sort. His father had the children baptised after he fell out with his synagogue. Disraeli referred to himself as the page between the Old and New Testaments.

    “a convert to Christianity”: of a sort. His father had the children baptised after he fell out with his synagogue. Disraeli referred to himself as the page between the Old and New Testaments.

    The Intertestamental Prime Minister

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  • @syonredux

    I wonder what Rosalind Franklin would have to say about all this.
     
    Interesting family background:

    Franklin was born in 50 Chepstow Villas,[10] Notting Hill, London into an affluent and influential British Jewish family.[11][12][13] Her father was Ellis Arthur Franklin (1894–1964), a politically liberal London merchant banker who taught at the city's Working Men's College, and her mother was Muriel Frances Waley (1894–1976). Rosalind was the elder daughter and the second child in the family of five children. Her father's uncle was Herbert Samuel (later Viscount Samuel), who was the Home Secretary in 1916 and the first practising Jew to serve in the British Cabinet.[14] Her aunt, Helen Caroline Franklin, was married to Norman de Mattos Bentwich, who was the Attorney General in the British Mandate of Palestine.[15] She was active in trade union organisation and the women's suffrage movement, and was later a member of the London County Council.[16][17] Franklin herself later became an agnostic.[18][19] Her uncle, Hugh Franklin, was another prominent figure in the suffrage movement, although his actions therein embarrassed the Franklin family.
     
    I didn't know that her grand-uncle was the first practicing Jew to serve in the British Cabinet.Disraeli, of course, was a convert to Christianity, which puts an asterisk by his Jewishness

    “a convert to Christianity”: of a sort. His father had the children baptised after he fell out with his synagogue. Disraeli referred to himself as the page between the Old and New Testaments.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    “a convert to Christianity”: of a sort. His father had the children baptised after he fell out with his synagogue. Disraeli referred to himself as the page between the Old and New Testaments.
     
    The Intertestamental Prime Minister
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  • It’s gross to watch how cowardly the vast majority of intellectuals are. What’s the endgame if the less intelligent and well-behaved are indefinitely more fertile? I’ve never heard a good answer to this.

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  • @syonredux
    TNC on The Bell Curve and The New Republic:

    I am not without my own baggage. I remember when Andrew [Sullivan] published The Bell Curve excerpt in The New Republic. I was an undergraduate at Howard University -- same city, but a different world. All of the young intellectuals who'd gather under the flag-pole on the yard were hot and angry. But a professor on campus (and I wish I could remember who) handed out xeroxed copies of the excerpt and its responses and simply told us, "Arm yourselves." Don't get angry he told us. Get informed. That the in flight magazine of Air Force One would argue that all the world I'd known was brain addled set me afire. Some years later I had seen more of the world. But I was still burning.
     
    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/the-bell-curve-through-the-veil/249150/

    Thanks. For the premier black intellectual today he is very underwhelming.

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  • @The most deplorable one

    Disraeli, of course, was a convert to Christianity, which puts an asterisk by his Jewishness
     
    Perhaps he was cryptic.

    Perhaps he was cryptic.

    Doubtful; his Jewish feelings were entirely racial in character (cf his frankly insane novels, especially Tancred)

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  • The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @syonredux

    I wonder what Rosalind Franklin would have to say about all this.
     
    Interesting family background:

    Franklin was born in 50 Chepstow Villas,[10] Notting Hill, London into an affluent and influential British Jewish family.[11][12][13] Her father was Ellis Arthur Franklin (1894–1964), a politically liberal London merchant banker who taught at the city's Working Men's College, and her mother was Muriel Frances Waley (1894–1976). Rosalind was the elder daughter and the second child in the family of five children. Her father's uncle was Herbert Samuel (later Viscount Samuel), who was the Home Secretary in 1916 and the first practising Jew to serve in the British Cabinet.[14] Her aunt, Helen Caroline Franklin, was married to Norman de Mattos Bentwich, who was the Attorney General in the British Mandate of Palestine.[15] She was active in trade union organisation and the women's suffrage movement, and was later a member of the London County Council.[16][17] Franklin herself later became an agnostic.[18][19] Her uncle, Hugh Franklin, was another prominent figure in the suffrage movement, although his actions therein embarrassed the Franklin family.
     
    I didn't know that her grand-uncle was the first practicing Jew to serve in the British Cabinet.Disraeli, of course, was a convert to Christianity, which puts an asterisk by his Jewishness

    Disraeli, of course, was a convert to Christianity, which puts an asterisk by his Jewishness

    Perhaps he was cryptic.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Perhaps he was cryptic.
     
    Doubtful; his Jewish feelings were entirely racial in character (cf his frankly insane novels, especially Tancred)
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  • @Buzz Mohawk
    I wonder what Rosalind Franklin would have to say about all this.

    I wonder what Rosalind Franklin would have to say about all this.

    Interesting family background:

    Franklin was born in 50 Chepstow Villas,[10] Notting Hill, London into an affluent and influential British Jewish family.[11][12][13] Her father was Ellis Arthur Franklin (1894–1964), a politically liberal London merchant banker who taught at the city’s Working Men’s College, and her mother was Muriel Frances Waley (1894–1976). Rosalind was the elder daughter and the second child in the family of five children. Her father’s uncle was Herbert Samuel (later Viscount Samuel), who was the Home Secretary in 1916 and the first practising Jew to serve in the British Cabinet.[14] Her aunt, Helen Caroline Franklin, was married to Norman de Mattos Bentwich, who was the Attorney General in the British Mandate of Palestine.[15] She was active in trade union organisation and the women’s suffrage movement, and was later a member of the London County Council.[16][17] Franklin herself later became an agnostic.[18][19] Her uncle, Hugh Franklin, was another prominent figure in the suffrage movement, although his actions therein embarrassed the Franklin family.

    I didn’t know that her grand-uncle was the first practicing Jew to serve in the British Cabinet.Disraeli, of course, was a convert to Christianity, which puts an asterisk by his Jewishness

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    Disraeli, of course, was a convert to Christianity, which puts an asterisk by his Jewishness
     
    Perhaps he was cryptic.
    , @dearieme
    "a convert to Christianity": of a sort. His father had the children baptised after he fell out with his synagogue. Disraeli referred to himself as the page between the Old and New Testaments.
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  • @Ed
    Slightly off topic but Coates is reveling in the apparent demise of New Republic because they dared to write articles questioning the intelligence of Blacks.

    Would anyone happen to know what articles he is referring to? I've never read the New a Republic offline.

    https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/status/540634982893772800

    TNC on The Bell Curve and The New Republic:

    I am not without my own baggage. I remember when Andrew [Sullivan] published The Bell Curve excerpt in The New Republic. I was an undergraduate at Howard University — same city, but a different world. All of the young intellectuals who’d gather under the flag-pole on the yard were hot and angry. But a professor on campus (and I wish I could remember who) handed out xeroxed copies of the excerpt and its responses and simply told us, “Arm yourselves.” Don’t get angry he told us. Get informed. That the in flight magazine of Air Force One would argue that all the world I’d known was brain addled set me afire. Some years later I had seen more of the world. But I was still burning.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/the-bell-curve-through-the-veil/249150/

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    Thanks. For the premier black intellectual today he is very underwhelming.
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  • I wonder what Rosalind Franklin would have to say about all this.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    I wonder what Rosalind Franklin would have to say about all this.
     
    Interesting family background:

    Franklin was born in 50 Chepstow Villas,[10] Notting Hill, London into an affluent and influential British Jewish family.[11][12][13] Her father was Ellis Arthur Franklin (1894–1964), a politically liberal London merchant banker who taught at the city's Working Men's College, and her mother was Muriel Frances Waley (1894–1976). Rosalind was the elder daughter and the second child in the family of five children. Her father's uncle was Herbert Samuel (later Viscount Samuel), who was the Home Secretary in 1916 and the first practising Jew to serve in the British Cabinet.[14] Her aunt, Helen Caroline Franklin, was married to Norman de Mattos Bentwich, who was the Attorney General in the British Mandate of Palestine.[15] She was active in trade union organisation and the women's suffrage movement, and was later a member of the London County Council.[16][17] Franklin herself later became an agnostic.[18][19] Her uncle, Hugh Franklin, was another prominent figure in the suffrage movement, although his actions therein embarrassed the Franklin family.
     
    I didn't know that her grand-uncle was the first practicing Jew to serve in the British Cabinet.Disraeli, of course, was a convert to Christianity, which puts an asterisk by his Jewishness
    , @cloudswrest
    I wonder what Rosalind Franklin would have to say about all this.

    She was not involved because she was dead.
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  • @Ed
    Slightly off topic but Coates is reveling in the apparent demise of New Republic because they dared to write articles questioning the intelligence of Blacks.

    Would anyone happen to know what articles he is referring to? I've never read the New a Republic offline.

    https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/status/540634982893772800

    “Would anyone happen to know what articles he is referring to?”

    Andrew Sullivan published an excerpt from “The Bell Curve” when he edited TNR.

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  • WhatEvvs [AKA "Bemused"] says:
    @Ed
    Slightly off topic but Coates is reveling in the apparent demise of New Republic because they dared to write articles questioning the intelligence of Blacks.

    Would anyone happen to know what articles he is referring to? I've never read the New a Republic offline.

    https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/status/540634982893772800

    Back in the day when Andrew Sullivan was one of the editors of NR, he praised Bell Curve. I think more than once. He may have devoted an entire issue to Bell Curve.

    ***

    Regarding Watson and his having to sell his Nobel, I read that he wants to use the proceeds to buy a Hockney.

    I don’t think he’s nearing the poorhouse. He’s a very strange man, and a real attention hog, which in no way excuses how he’s been treated.

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  • I guess we will never know whether Crick might have proved a bit more courageous than Watson, when the shit hit the fan.

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    We'll never know but I bet that Crick would. Probably a lot more courageous. Like in proportion of their scientific talents. Watson basically did nothing of note post 1953, happily becoming an administrator. Crick did several great things science-wise, kept trying to apply himself at super-hard problems and kept distance from administrative stuff.
    , @eah
    He's old. I don't blame him. It's the cretins who attack him.
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  • Slightly off topic but Coates is reveling in the apparent demise of New Republic because they dared to write articles questioning the intelligence of Blacks.

    Would anyone happen to know what articles he is referring to? I’ve never read the New a Republic offline.

    https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/status/540634982893772800

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    • Replies: @WhatEvvs
    Back in the day when Andrew Sullivan was one of the editors of NR, he praised Bell Curve. I think more than once. He may have devoted an entire issue to Bell Curve.

    ***

    Regarding Watson and his having to sell his Nobel, I read that he wants to use the proceeds to buy a Hockney.

    I don't think he's nearing the poorhouse. He's a very strange man, and a real attention hog, which in no way excuses how he's been treated.

    , @MC
    "Would anyone happen to know what articles he is referring to?"

    Andrew Sullivan published an excerpt from "The Bell Curve" when he edited TNR.
    , @syonredux
    TNC on The Bell Curve and The New Republic:

    I am not without my own baggage. I remember when Andrew [Sullivan] published The Bell Curve excerpt in The New Republic. I was an undergraduate at Howard University -- same city, but a different world. All of the young intellectuals who'd gather under the flag-pole on the yard were hot and angry. But a professor on campus (and I wish I could remember who) handed out xeroxed copies of the excerpt and its responses and simply told us, "Arm yourselves." Don't get angry he told us. Get informed. That the in flight magazine of Air Force One would argue that all the world I'd known was brain addled set me afire. Some years later I had seen more of the world. But I was still burning.
     
    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/the-bell-curve-through-the-veil/249150/
    , @anonymous-antimarxist
    Starting over ten years ago clowns like TNC became the reason that after decades I no long subscribe or pay attention to the Atlantic Monthly.

    Slightly off topic but Coates is reveling in the apparent demise of New Republic because they dared to write articles questioning the intelligence of Blacks.

    I actually subscribed to TNR for over a decade back when they published the Bell Curve issue. Come to think of it, it was one of the few truly brave things TNR ever did.

    TNR is now just a complete bunch of PC Cultural Marxist wimps unable to stand up to a race hustler like TNC.

    Jonathan Chait ‏@jonathanchait 13h13 hours ago

    @tanehisicoates You need to explain why justifable anger at Peretz and Sullivan translates into kicking Foer, Ioffe, Cohn, et al.
    0 replies 0 retweets 7 favorites
     
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  • [this is a slightly edited version of what was originally a haloscan comment]I have come to believe that it is crucial to realize that there are other factors in intelligence besides g and its subfactors (e.g. math/performance, visuospatial, verbal, short-term memory). This is important not only factually and scientifically, but politically as well; a less...
  • i’m closing this thread. i think we’ve gotten most of what we want. interesting to note how some people’s priors in regards to the skeptical eye shift when psychometric results don’t go in the direction they find “plausible” :-) i’ve already deleted multiple comments about chinese dishwashers & drunks.

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  • NE Asia only compromises at most 10 nations. 
     
    list the 10 nations. i’m not seeing how there are 10. you’re posting the results of your ‘calculations’ but not much of the background work. please do so, you’re really starting to get on my nerves. you’ve already thrown in the false IQ variance argument as well as the taiwan-selection-biased argument. i’m not impressed by your brilliance at this point. we’ve had these discussion MANY times, please tighten your prose, you’re starting to get stream of consciousness and pretty much incoherent.

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  • Total population of the Western Nations in the Top 20 minus the ones chosen by Hsu: 157 mil 
     
    Total pop of Western nations chosen by Hsu: 310 mil 
     
    While it is higher, it is not drastic. I propose simply taking the average verbal PISA score of every Western nation, then the average verbal PISA score of every NE nation. And see how they compare. Perhaps NE Asia might still be bigger (I haven’t done the calculations myself), but it is still far more logical then simply taking 6 nations to represent the entire West, while taking the top 4 scores to represent NE.

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  • On the other hand, imagine I choose the top 10 high schools in Japan and compare their average to that of the US. I don’t think that would tell us much about the question we are asking, but that’s analogous to what you are doing. 
     
    But that is exactly what your doing my friend. You are using the top 4 verbal PISA scores to represent NE Asia, are you not?

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  • As was just pointed out by Razib, and by me, Taiwan is very likely a good proxy for 1.2 billion mainlanders. So it’s absolutely reasonable to compare Taiwan to OECD avg. If you think hard enough about that you might understand — unless you are still claiming selection. 
     
    First, many of the Western countries that were on the Top 20 had comparable populations to the 6 nations you chosen. So I don’t see why they failed the pick.  
     
    A fair judgement would be to compare all the available data we have on PISA NE Asia, then all the data we have on PISA Western countries, then see what the average score is, hopefully weighted for population as well. If we did it this way, I would think that the PISA IQ for Asians would be higher, even in reading (do to many Western nations having a PISA IQ in the 95 range. Then again, if we did it this way, why don’t we use SE Asia as well?). This doesn’t discount the fact that individual ethnicities have comparable averages to NE Asians (which really only compromise of less then 6 main ethnic groups) Ashkenazi Jews only make up a small portion of the global population, do we discount their averages as well?  
     
    I was only pointing out your flawed argument to select only 6 countries to represent Europe, while simoltaniously selecting the top 4 scores to represent Asia. I said nothing of the average scores of Europe and NE Asia (which could very well be higher)

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  • Uhh, your mathematical procedure is called cherry picking or “selection” ! It gives information about the small European countries that happen to have very effect education systems at the moment. What about the small European countries that happen to have *bad* systems at the moment? (Or the good old USA :-) You aren’t including those in your calculation. 
     
    I can’t find a single NE Asian unit that has lower reading score than the OECD avg. Japan, Korea, Taiwan, HK and Singapore all outperform. Don’t you think that is significant? (Actually I don’t have the Singapore number — it’s not in PISA — but they typically do very well.) 
     
    As was just pointed out by Razib, and by me, Taiwan is very likely a good proxy for 1.2 billion mainlanders. So it’s absolutely reasonable to compare Taiwan to OECD avg. If you think hard enough about that you might understand — unless you are still claiming selection. 
     
    On the other hand, imagine I choose the top 10 high schools in Japan and compare their average to that of the US. I don’t think that would tell us much about the question we are asking, but that’s analogous to what you are doing. 
     
    I don’t feel I can add too much more to this discussion, so see you tomorrow!

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  • I guess I don’t see how using the largest European countries to represent Europe is unreasonable. If we only had data on, say, Germany vs Japan, Korea, Taiwan would you be complaining? 
     
    Actually, it is unreasonable if you don’t look at the total population of the countries that had comparable PISA results to the top 4 countries you used. Lets base the PISA scores on population for the West, but use the Top 4 scores regardless of population for the East, seems very unreasonable to me.

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  • so I hope we don’t have to go into it again. 
     
    new rule: i’m going to start deleting stupid comments about east asian countries that rehash issues we’ve discussed 12,000 times over the 6 years of this weblog (some as recently as less than 1 month ago). practically to continue extracting value out of these discussions we need to progress and just assume some facts as givens, whig-like. otherwise this will turn into a literature blog (no offense to literature). so,  
     
    1) skepticism of east asian IQs needs to be backed up by data. otherwise, deleted 
     
    2) no more stuff about IQ variance unless backed up by cites 
     
    3) since the histories of nations like taiwan can be found in things called books which are deposited in buildings called libraries, i expect people to actually consult these before speculating. otherwise, deleted 
     
    with that, discussion can go on….

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  • I am calculating the total population of the top 15 European nations on the PISA exam (minus the ones you chose), then comparing the total population of your own chosen countries to represent Europe, to see if you argment holds any weight.

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  • I think you should look into the history of Taiwan and HK. The bulk of the Chinese pop. of Taiwan is from a poor province called Fujian, arriving centuries before the Nationalists fled the mainland. The bulk of the HK population is also descended from poor migrants. This was discussed on the GNXP thread on IQ variance, so I hope we don’t have to go into it again. 
     
    I’m not making claims about the whole of the PRC, because we don’t have any data. But I seriously doubt that Koreans or Japanese will turn out to have higher IQs once the GDP per capita in China has reached OECD levels. In fact, people who are familiar with the history of HK and Taiwan would argue for that conclusion based on the histories of those places. 
     
    I guess I don’t see how using the largest European countries to represent Europe is unreasonable. If we only had data on, say, Germany vs Japan, Korea, Taiwan would you be complaining? 
     
    Obviously there are big variations due to local educational factors on PISA. If you want to claim that New Zealanders, for example, have higher verbal IQs than NE Asians then I guess you would claim they also have higher verbal IQs than people in the UK?

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  • selective migration anyone? 
     
    NO!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT FOR TAWAIN!!!!.

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  • Do you think the Taiwan and HK (selective migration anyone? Just look at the scores of New Zealand and Canada if you are going to use Hong Kong and Taiwan) really represent the largest population of NE Asia? How about we use China, which make up the huge bulk of the population in NE Asia, if we are going to use your logic. For the record, there are over 10 Western Countries that do better then Japan and Taiwan, can we count up their total population, and compare it to the PISA scores you selectively chosen to represent Europe? I bet you they are comparable.

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  • JTD: Well, I am comparing the largest countries in each group.  
     
    (No data for China as a whole, although I don’t think HK Chinese are especially selected relative to the whole, and data from the US would just undermine your case…) 
     
    I don’t want to be pedantic, but since the overall OECD population is predominantly of European descent, and all of those countries are affluent, it seems fair to compare the OECD average to that of Korea, Japan and Taiwan, which are all pretty populous (even Taiwan has more people in it than any of the high scoring countires you want to cite except Canada). The result is clearly in my favor. 
     
    Note I’ve already pointed out that PISA data is affected by national educational system, so it’s not a perfect data set for our question either.

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  • My comments don’t cross each other. Of the top 10 countries in PISA verbal, only 2 E asian countries are represented. On the top 20, only 4 are represented. Many of the Western countries on the top 20 have large population numbers, they aren’t all “small”

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  • jtd says:

    Also, I don’t think population size should play that large a role as your implying. What about 1 billion people in China (IQ 100) as representative of NE Asians? Why selectivly single out the cream of the crop in Europe, when you are using the cream of the crop in Asia?

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  • Oops, I wrote “twins” when I meant “adoption” above. 
     
    JTD: did our last comments cross each other, or are you still sticking to your PISA claim?

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  • jtd says:

    Many of these countries are small? NE Asia only compromises at most 10 nations. Your logic is to use the entire European continent and compare it to the best Asia has to offer. By that logic, lets compare all of Europe, to all of East Asia. Or better yet, all of Europe to all of of Asia How about this, lets compare the top 10 Asian nations, to the top 10 European nations, as I shown on the post above.

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  • Also cited in my source. Only 4 of the top 20 nations in reading were East Asian. The rest were European. This is using thier own language, no? Let ween on the speculative “culural” arguments now, and debate the facts at hand.

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  • JTD: In the Belgian case it was through agencies after the Korean war — I don’t think parents traveled there and selected kids the way they do now. Also many of the kids had suffered malnutrition. It’s possible the kids came from high SES Korean families, but that seems unlikely since rich people probably were better able to take care of their kids (on average) than poor or middle class people. Admittedly no one knows and there could be a systematic effect.  
     
    Many US Korean adoptions just after the war happened through the Holt agency which happens to be here in Eugene and I think it’s clear in their case the kids weren’t selected — they were typically from destitute families — so it would be interesting to look at their IQ scores. A twins study in which one could establish no selection (or negative selection – mainly low SES kids put up for adoption) would be the gold standard for this question. 
     
    Re: your PISA analysis, you can’t go by top 5 countries. Many of those countries are small. Look at the actual data and you can compare the European OECD average to scores from Japan, Korea, Taiwan, HK, etc. Your logic is like saying that the top 5 high schools in the US have higher test scores than the best high school in Singapore so US kids must have on average better scores than Singaporeans. The conclusion does not follow mathematically. 
     
    2006 PISA: OECD reading avg is about 490. France 488, Germany 495, UK 495, Italy 469, Spain 461 basically determine the average, as they are the largest countries.  
     
    Japan 498 Korea 556 HK 536 Taiwan 496  
     
    Where is the reading comprehension gap? I only see a gap with the opposite sign than the one that sloppy thinkers talk about. 
     
    You can find the data through a link here: 
    http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2008/06/asian-white-iq-variance-from-pisa.html

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  • We also have to assume that many people may selectively adopt kids that seem to be brigher and healthier. So there is a systematic bias in those studies as well.

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  • jtd says:

    I would guess that by adulthood the bilingual kid catches up, but who knows — there could be a long term effect. Certainly if a verbal IQ study is done on school age kids the results would be affected by the lag described above. 
     
    Then lets compare non-English European immigrants to Asian immingrants? Do you think there would still be a difference?

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  • jtd says:

    Hsu, in the PISA test 5 out of the top 6 countries in verbal scores were European or Western countries, so I fail to see where this higher Asian PISA score on reading is coming from. The only one that wasn’t was Korea, consitent with my previous post and the Weschler IQ test scores I cited, and the data used from McGraw. The Belgian adoptees was a relatively small sample, so we might be able to assume the many of them were prostitute bastards from high IQ executives. Ok, its a stretch, but it is a possibility. We can hardly use adoptees as representative of the entire population. But even if you were to assume that they are, at best it proves that we have contradictary data, not a proven higher verbal IQ for Asians. You can see the PISA data below. 
     
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PISA 
     
    It is funny that Canada scores pretty high on the PISA tests. This could be a result of the strict immigration laws in recent Canadian history, which only allow high income (high IQ) people to come in.

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  • Would a native born kid from a high SES Chinese-American or Mexican-American family lag behind in English fluency? 
     
    In studies of language acquisition I have seen there is evidence for a conservation law: the (on average fixed) total rate of word acquisition has to be split between two languages in the bilingual case. Bilingual kids at first lag behind monolingual kids in the common language vocabulary. Eventually they catch up (on average) but one doesn’t know whether anything was permanently lost or when or if the bilingual kid reaches full potential. To answer your question, a kid with slightly higher verbal IQ who is learning 2 languages could easily lag behind another kid with similar verbal IQ in the common language if the second kid is monolingual.  
     
    I would guess that by adulthood the bilingual kid catches up, but who knows — there could be a long term effect. Certainly if a verbal IQ study is done on school age kids the results would be affected by the lag described above. 
     
    I agree that studies of 3rd or 4th generation kids would be almost as good as adoption studies. 
     
    Pretty much all data I have seen have obvious (to me) systematic flaws except the adoption studies. The only problem I can see with the Belgian study is small N. 
     
    Think how hard it is to compare verbal IQs in two languages in two groups. Take an analogy or vocabulary question, for example. Who knows whether the translated version of the question is harder or easier or the same difficulty as the original? If all you want is the ranking of an individual *in their own group* that is ok, but how can you compare the relative performances of the two groups on the translated versions of the same test? 
     
    i.e. Shetland is to dog as Jersey is to …. cow, sheep, pig, car? 
     
    Who knows whether the translated version of the question is easier or harder than the original? There’s no culture fair verbal IQ test analogous to Raven’s matrices or mental rotations of objects, or even something as fair as asking to calculate the area of a polygon. 
     
    All those studies quoted by Lynn etc. are very questionable when it comes to verbal IQ comparisons across language groups.

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  • McGraw: 
     
    I would, actually. There’s also my anecdotal experience here in Hawaii that there is a significant fraction of the Filipino population that rapidly assimilates (my maternal grandfather is second gen and never learned how to speak Tagalong as a child) and another that tends to stay in the ethnic barrios speaking their own tongue at home for three generations. Oddly it seems to correlate to ancestral SES status back in the Philipines.

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  • Here are the corresponding verbal IQ gaps, relative to the white mean: 
     
    black: 17.6 points 
    Mexican-American: 10.9 points 
    Asian: 8 points 
     
    For Mexicans and blacks, the gaps appear consistent with other data and studies. So I’m assuming that La Griffe assumed that LSATs were a good proxy for a verbal/analytic IQ test and extrapolated to Asians. I don’t know how accurate of as assumption this is though….

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  • So Spike, would you presume that a disproportionate share of Filipino-Americans have Chinese ancestry?  
     
    But, the claim that because someone was admitted to law school there can’t have been an environmental influence on their verbal development is still poor logic. It’s like saying that anyone who is over 6 feet tall cannot have had their growth stunted by malnutrition 
     
    Well, Asian kids aren’t growing up without verbal interaction. They’re growing up with verbal interaction partly in their own native language and partly in another language. So perhaps 
    their analytic skills aren’t diminished, but you’re right that they need to adapt to the vocabulary and structure of two different languages. I was speculating that most kids (at least the ones with high verbal IQs that take the LSATs) learn enough vocabulary from their daily interactions in school and everyday life, but I could be wrong….  
     
    I’m definitely no expert on this subject, so it’s quite possible you’re right about this. I’d be curious if there are any studies that compare bilingual adolescents to uniligual adolescents (controlling for SES). Would a native born kid from a high SES Chinese-American or Mexican-American family lag behind in English fluency? This is definitely something worth exploring in more detail. Comparing verbal IQ is definitely more challenging than something like visuospatial skills, so I’d have an open mind on this topic…..  
     
    Regarding PISA, yes the results certainly depend on the national education systems involved. I still think the gold standard would be adoption studies like the Belgian one. 
     
    Would you trust studies of 3rd/4th generations of immigrants?

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  • I just looked at the LaGriffe du superficial reasoning site itself and found this: 
     
    In 1989, the Law School Admission Council commissioned a study of bar passage rates. Its report, The LSAC National Longitudinal Bar Passage Study was published in 1998, with results disaggregated by race and ethnicity. Linda F. Wightman, the project head, collected data from more than 27,000 students who entered ABA approved law schools in fall 1991. The study found that only 80.75% of Asians passed the bar on the first try compared with 91.93% of non-Hispanic whites. This corresponds to a white-Asian mean-score difference of 0.53 standard deviation or in IQ terms a verbal gap of 8 points! 
     
    Unfortunately, Wightman put NE Asians into one big Asian box along with Filipinos, Hmong and others whose IQs are more than a standard deviation lower than Chinese, Koreans and Japanese. It is true that relatively few from low-IQ groups make it to the bar exam, but some do. Consequently, 8 points must be regarded as an upper bound to the white-NE Asian verbal gap.
     
     
    How do the researchers relate bar passage rates to verbal IQ? Do they simply use the passage rate to LSAT to IQ correlation? In that case they should just look at LSATs by ethnic group, but that says little about the overall population since the people who go to law school are a self-selected subgroup. Surely, just as PISA scores are moderated by educational system, bar passage rates can’t be judged a pure measure of verbal IQ. (And in any case one would just be testing the sub-population of a group that attends law school.) 
     
    As I understand it top law schools aren’t focused on bar preparation at all, and most of their graduates get ready via prep courses. Is anyone trying to argue that the bar itself is verbal g-loaded? 
     
    In conclusion, I’m still waiting for some good data on this subject…

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  • “The language spoken in the home when these law school graduates were growing up was statistically independent of bar examination outcome for all groups except whites and, although the chi-square statistic was significant for whites, the effect size was not sufficient to be considered of any practical significance (w = .04)” 
     
    Well, I can’t argue with that result if they did the analysis right. 
     
    But, the claim that because someone was admitted to law school there can’t have been an environmental influence on their verbal development is still poor logic. It’s like saying that anyone who is over 6 feet tall cannot have had their growth stunted by malnutrition.  
     
    Regarding PISA, yes the results certainly depend on the national education systems involved. I still think the gold standard would be adoption studies like the Belgian one.

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  • McGraw: 
     
    It would be pretty hard to do. First off, the initial Filipino migrant labor of the early 1900s to the 1940s was gender skewed to the men, as such most of the Filipino plantation laborers who stayed in Hawaii either remained bachelors or out-married into other ethnic groups. The post 1940s immigration has been more like that of the rest of America, though even in the early period there was a strong Sangley (Chinese Mestizo) component to the immigration pattern. I can’t remember what the study was, but I remember reading that research showed that 12-20% of Filipinos have some Chinese ancestry, with a strong oversampling in urban areas. Given that Filipino migrants to America are usually urbanites, I wouldn’t be surprised if the pattern follows

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  • The Law School Admission Council: 
     
    “The language spoken in the home when these law school graduates were growing up was statistically independent of bar examination outcome for all groups except whites and, although the chi-square statistic was significant for whites, the effect size was not sufficient to be considered of any practical significance (w = .04)” 
     
    Asians and Mexicans raised in English-speaking homes fared similarly to those from homes where multiple languages were spoken. I would caution that 8 points is an upper bound value, as examination takers likely include a small number from the less competitive Asian ethncities.

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  • Parental influence is likely limited. Parents can impart more vocabulary onto their childen and establish a basic level of fluency, but their impact significantly diminishes afterward. Schooling and individual initiative/ability are the keys to move from standard user fluency to mastery. As I also stated above, you need strong LSATS to get into law school. So children inhibited by their home environment aren’t even making it in…..  
     
    Also, look at pass rates for whites v.s. Mexican Americans. There’s a ~0.75 standard deviation gap, which corresponds fairly well to the generally agreed upon Mexican IQ range. If the children of Spanish-speaking immigrants Mexicans ae performing at roughly their potential, my guess is that environment doesn’t have more than a slight depressing effect on Asians from non-English speaking homes.  
     
    Comparing someone educated in South Korea to someone educated in Italy introduces more variables. Comparing students within a nation more effectively controls for environment. A lot of the apparent variance between comparable East Asian ethnicities (Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese) is likely related to what their school systems emphasize or academic rigor.

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  • Students need strong verbal skills and LSAT scores to even enter law school. So new immigrants with poor English skills probably aren’t skewing the results down for Asians. 
     
    I think your logic is flawed. The binary categorization: recent immigrant, or not, isn’t very realistic. 
     
    Take a kid who immigrated to the US as a child, or even one who was born here to immigrant parents. His parents don’t speak English well, but the kid does well in school, gets into law school, takes the bar. What would his “verbal IQ” as tested in English have been if he had been born in the US to parents who are native speakers (who perhaps even have superior vocabularies due to high IQ and SES)? You have to address that confound before using data from pools of Asians that have some immigrant heritage — their scores will not necessarily be indicative of *true* verbal IQ. 
     
    The English vocabulary used in a high SES/IQ home where the parents mainly speak, e.g., Korean, is a far cry from that in a family of native speakers, and it would be surprising if this didn’t affect the vocabulary of the kids in that household. (Of course the *total* vocabulary of those kids is high if you count all the Korean words they know :-) 
     
    This confounding effect is in SAT scores, LSATs, bar passage rates, you name it. It *is not* in the PISA data, where tests are laboriously translated into national languages and given to thousands of students *in their native language*. In those studies the reading comprehension scores of NE Asians are above the European average.  
     
    The best methodology is probably to look at Asians adopted in infancy by native speakers. I already referenced the Belgian study which showed the verbal IQ of Korean adoptees to be higher than native Belgians.

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  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipino_American 
     
    Filipino immigration in recent decades has skewed towards the highly educated, but many of the earlier immigrants were commoners. Hawaii might be a good place to look since the Filipinos there mainly arrived as laborers. 
     
    “A mean which is .5 SD higher accounts for a large overrepresentation at elite universities if the cutoff for admission is high enough. But, I do think there are other cultural/social/personality(?) factors at work as well.” 
     
    Flynn found that the minimum IQ threshold for Asians entering professional fields was ~1/2 a standard deviation below the white IQ threshold. Asians appear to have a very substanial academic advantage even when matched for IQ.  
     
    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft2.htm 
     
    Take the bar exam for example. In 1989, the Law School Admission Council commissioned a study of bar passage rates. Its report, The LSAC National Longitudinal Bar Passage Study was published in 1998, with results disaggregated by race and ethnicity. Linda F. Wightman, the project head, collected data from more than 27,000 students who entered ABA approved law schools in fall 1991. The study found that only 80.75% of Asians passed the bar on the first try compared with 91.93% of non-Hispanic whites. This corresponds to a white-Asian mean-score difference of 0.53 standard deviation or in IQ terms a verbal gap of 8 points!” 
     
    Students need strong verbal skills and LSAT scores to even enter law school. So new immigrants with poor English skills probably aren’t skewing the results down for Asians.

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  • ^^ 
     
    I really wish people would read before they post. 
     
    I never said Chinese scored worse on intelligence, I said that the Weschler data I sourced above (not anecdotal as everyone seems to be suggesting) shows that Asians do worse on reading comprehension then Caucasians. (but it only looked at Japanese) I’ve already said Asians have the edge on Spatial ability. Don’t put words in my mouth.

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  • The Weschler IQ tests seems to suggest that caucasians have the edge in certain areas of intelligence, comprehension included. 
     
    I wish people would use their brains … 
     
    Have you not seen Chinese cooks and other workers sitting around in restaurants and hair-dressing salons (where you can get cheap hair cuts) reading newspapers in Chinese? 
     
    Can you read those fucking things? I am only just beginning to, and if you think they are simply looking at the comics then you are mad. And remember, that form of writing has been around for some 4,000 years, and two thousand years ago, Chinese intellectuals were debating the role of government in the economy! 
     
    Have you ever played Mahjong in Chinese with Chinese people and listened to the conversation around the table and seen their ability to quickly count up the score in the game or see the possibilities in a hand? I have. 
     
    People who think that Chinese people score worse that Caucasians when it comes to intelligence have been visiting Mrs Palmer too much.

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  • Some sources/influences on my previous post, and my thinking in general, are listed below. I'm not recommending that everyone run off and buy all of these books, but they might pique your curiosity. Of course, to the extent one has time, it's always good to read and re-read the classic h-bd/evolutionary psychology writers such as...
  • Also, speaking of the evil in good and the good in evil: for all the evil of Communism and Nazism, I believe there is an important grain of truth in both ideologies’ view of history: that is, history as a history of class struggle (Marxism), or of race struggle (Nazism). 
     
    Think about it: what is class struggle? It is a struggle about access to money, that is, access to resources. This seems like a fairly fundamental struggle in life; it is hard to survive, much less reproduce without food, a place to live, and a mate, preferably all of high quality. I think even a reptile would understand these things at some level; certainly any mammal would. These things all activate the reward system in higher vertebrates, and activation of the reward system typically is important in creating memories as well as motivation. 
     
    Same goes for race struggle: race stuggle, or in more ancient terms, clan or tribe stuggle, is the struggle of one’s genetic relatives against another’s genetic relatives. Ultimately, race/tribe/clan struggle is about the survival and reproduction of one’s own genome, a struggle for all of life. This, I believe, is also a struggle that any higher vertebrate would “understand.” For example, even mother snakes, for example, have been observed caring for their young. Family, clan, and tribe are much more clearly important for mammals and their “mammal-like reptile” ancestors who lived about 250-300 million years ago. 
     
    So, in spite of the gross oversimplification and often ill motives of Nazis and Communists alike, their view of life and history is not *completely* off-kilter. They speak of struggles that are probably, at some level, 250-350 million years old, and at an even broader level, as old as life itself.

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  • Along sort of the same line of thought, I did find some amusing similarities between Ingsoc and Cognitive Elitism (the supposed ideology of gnxp?ers like myself) or, in Newspeak, CogElite. 
     
    For example, membership in IngSoc is “by examination,” presumably an IQ-type test. IngSoc, while highly xenophobic and warlike (I say unlike CogElite and more like Bush-McCainism), is also aracial: “Jews, [blacks],–note: the Latin word for black used in the book seems to trip off something in Haloscan– and South Americans of pure Indian descent” could be found in the highest ranks of the Party. Ingsoc, while hierarchal, is also in principle non-hereditary, willing to draw itself anew from the low classes if necessary. (see in Goldstein?s book, Chapter One: Ignorance is Strength). Hmm, sounds very much like the CogElite ideal of a deracinated, high-IQ elite.  
     
    I could even think of three slogans for a future twisted CogElite Party, a hodgepodge amalgamation of Cognitive Elitism and futurism as advocated by myself, and limousine liberalism, “bourgeois bohemianism,” multiculturalism, neoconservativism, religious fanaticism, and good old-style totalitarianism, Marxism, and Nazism.  
     
    Proposed CogElite Slogans, circa 2086: 
     
    INTELLIGENCE IS STUPIDITY 
    Origins: my (and society?s) obsession with intelligence; contrarily, the tendency of the orthodox mutli-culti Left to deny the importance of intelligence; the tendency of both intelligent and stupid people to be politically stupid (see Derbyshire?s law), the necessity of intelligent people to create and maintain the ultimate evil: a totalitarian, unchangeable, 1984-like society. 
    DIVISION IS STENGTH 
    Origins: The slogan “diversity is strength,” the old militarist slogan “divide and conquer”; contrarily, the need for division of labor in economics, the enrichment that other cultures can bring (even if all too often the reverse is the case). 
    UGLINESS IS BEAUTY 
    Origins: Naomi Wolf?s “The Beauty Myth,” perhaps the stupidest and most irritating book ever written and the quite authoritarian feminist movement?s hatred of beauty; contrarily, the utter lack of taste of nerds like myself (see the writings of Udolpho); the barrenness of the modern “concrete jungle” that pervades much of the world today and is always pervasive in dystopian visions; the concepts of goodsex and sexcrime from 1984, my concept, borrowed from the examples of substance use in 1984 of crimedrugging (drug use for personal enjoyment, for alleged spiritual or mind-expanding purposes) and gooddrugging (drug use that advances the interest of the State, i.e. that is mind control purposes).

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  • [this is a slightly edited version of what was originally a haloscan comment]I have come to believe that it is crucial to realize that there are other factors in intelligence besides g and its subfactors (e.g. math/performance, visuospatial, verbal, short-term memory). This is important not only factually and scientifically, but politically as well; a less...
  • ^^ 
     
    There does seem to be some contradictary data to say the least. The Weschler IQ tests seems to suggest that caucasians have the edge in certain areas of intelligence, comprehension included. I admit I was basing a lot of my memory on Finland’s results (which is probably not accurate since they were much higher then the average European), but I could have sworn that in 2000 and 2003 European nations made the bulk of the Top 5 in reading comprehension. (again this is based off memory, but I would want to see the results) There were also a lot of European nations were in the 530 to 542 range with NE Asians in 2006. Six other high-scoring countries had mean scores of 530 to 542 points: Canada, Japan and New Zealand and the partner countries/economies Hong Kong-China, Chinese Taipei and Estonia. But I guess if you factor in NE Asia as a whole and Europe as a whole, Asia might have the edge on comprhension as well (based of PISA results. I would still like to see the data on every country individually) 
     
    I was intrigued by the PISA data in Finland. Perhaps we are seeing a sharp rise in IQ for the younger generation? 
     
    Huh? Schizophrenia is extremely common among Afro-Caribeans in the UK. But that may be due to too much ganja. I was just basing the facts on the sources above, mainly dealing with Bipolar. You right that Schizophrenia is also found high in Blacks (but Bipolar isn’t), but we do see many musical breathroughs in this group, so the idea is not completely bunk (perhaps scientific breakthroughs require a higher IQ then artistic breakthroughs? both would require a degree of creativity) The mean IQ for Bipolar is higher then schizophrenia, so perhaps more of the creative innovations come from this group rather then schiz. Both have been tested for scoring higher in creativity tests (at least the schizotypes and bipolar people), but lower mean IQ (bipolar not drastically lower then the average) 
     
    http://www.pendulum.org/bpnews/archive/001632.html

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  • Some sources/influences on my previous post, and my thinking in general, are listed below. I'm not recommending that everyone run off and buy all of these books, but they might pique your curiosity. Of course, to the extent one has time, it's always good to read and re-read the classic h-bd/evolutionary psychology writers such as...
  • I wasn’t aware that reckless data selection was part of “the empirical habit of thought”, but maybe my memory is a bit foggy. 
     
    Well, what an orthodox thinker might interpret as “reckless data selection” someone else, like myself, might interpret as willingness to come up with and accept new and/or unorthodox ideas. I have always found the criticism of h-bd, and lines of scientific thought in general, as “too reckless” or “not rigorous” to be irritating; if one had to come up with an elaborate proof for every new, unorthodox, or unpopular idea, scientific and social progress would come to a halt.  
     
    This goes for learning in general: I couldn’t come up with the proofs for many important scientific and mathematical formulae I have frequently used if I had to save my life (this goes even for ones as simple as the quadratic formula), but this does not make my use of such formulae “reckless.” I am not denying the occasional utility of rigorous proofs. In fact, thinking about the nature of formulae, rather than learning and using them by rote, can be critical in understanding them and coming up with new ones. 
     
    As an aside, one thing I like about Vaillant’s writing is his willingness to come up with new ideas, and support them by “metaphor” rather than hard proof, to be refreshing. It is true that such thinking can lead to many false positives, especially when used by someone who is not as smart or informed as they think they are, but in the end one must realize that the need to avoid false positives must be balanced with the utility of finding true positives. 
     
    See also: the persistent skeptic, solipsism

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  • Everybody uses Orwell against their enemies, which was the opposite of the effect that Orwell was hoping for. [also quoted and elaborated on by "toto."] 
     
    True…I think 1984 is as much a self-criticism as a criticism of Orwell’s enemies (for example, Orwell considered himself to be a socialist, yet IngSoc, or English Socialism, is the ruling ideology of the evil Party). Remembering the principles of doublethink (or is it undoublethink?), I think both the reading of 1984 as a self-criticism and as a scathing critique of society, and of mindlessly orthodox thinking in general is important to keep in mind.

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  • [this is a slightly edited version of what was originally a haloscan comment]I have come to believe that it is crucial to realize that there are other factors in intelligence besides g and its subfactors (e.g. math/performance, visuospatial, verbal, short-term memory). This is important not only factually and scientifically, but politically as well; a less...
  • JTD, 
     
    If you look at PISA data NE Asians also outperform on the reading comprehension test (not just Koreans). The verbal score issue is discussed on the same thread that Razib points to above. I have never seen any good data that supports lower verbal scores — only cases where immigrants or children of immigrants are tested in a language they don’t speak at home. For example, Korean kids (many of whom suffered malnutrition in Korea during the war) adopted into Belgian families had higher verbal IQs that native Belgians. The study is cited on the thread. 
     
    A mean which is .5 SD higher accounts for a large overrepresentation at elite universities if the cutoff for admission is high enough. But, I do think there are other cultural/social/personality(?) factors at work as well.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    the thing about asian & female superiority (and esp. asian female superiority) is that such a thing seems too good to be true to those who want to believe in it & too horrible to be true for those who are disgusted by it. 
     
    and no, this comment is not meant to be snarky or enigmatic (or is it?)

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Jtd, whats wrong, can’t believe that island-filipinos can beat the chinese “elite” in the same environment? You have to stop reading books that does not match reality, you know.  
     
    Philippines has a bad economy because it is run by corrupt chinese nationals. Corruption is the basic recipe in all Chinese-run dealings.  
     
    Thank you Razib for pointing out that the low-iq vietnamese are chinese too. 
     
    Mcgraw, its not selective migration, remember that most Filipinos came here through legal processes, being relatives of military men from World War 2. 
     
    Selective migration – those corrupt Chinese businessmen who pays for “student visas” for their children to “study”.  
     
    -So tired of the chinese shit.

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  • Huh? Schizophrenia is extremely common among Afro-Caribeans in the UK. But that may be due to too much ganja.

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  • Possible explanation for more creativity in caucasians? Perhaps it is the possibility that the gene found for bipolar disorder is found in greater number in Caucasian populations, and almost non existent non-caucasian populations. So is schizophrenia. Both are correlated with higher scores on creativity tests, but lower IQ. (on average) 
    http://www.pendulum.org/bpnews/archive/cat_bipolar_disorder_biology.html 
     
    http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/430898_print 
     
    The higher susceptability to bipolar and schizo might be the reason why we see more creative breakthroughs in the West, despite lower global population and lower average IQ. (even when you factor out Jews).

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  • I’ll look up the data later, but Pakistani-Americans are doing fairly well. The stats from the Census indicate that Filipino-Americans as a group are comparable to the other high-performing AA ethnicities in income and college attainment. Selective migration definitely plays a role. 
     
    2nd generation Vietnamese-Americans have good stats as well and, as Razib pointed out, many Vietnamese-Americans are the descendants of ethnic Chinese. It’s interesting to note that the Vietnamese community both in the U.S. and Australia seems to bi-modal in achievement and well represented at the extremes. I wonder if the ethnic Viets are more like the Lao/Hmong/Cambodians and the Chinese-Vietnamese are more like Chinese diaspora populations elsewhere…..  
     
    I do believe that Flynn also found that Japanese score similarly to whites when SES was controlled for, but that the verbal-visuospatial gap didn’t go away. Higher visuospatial IQs for Japanese populations seem persuasive to me, especially given their strong performance in manufacturing…..

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  • Perhaps the SD curve for Asians is wider? 
     
    NO!!!!! most likely no!!!!

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  • Typically the IQs of Filipinos, Vietnamesse, and Thai, tend to be lower then the white average.  
     
    not necessarily for asian americans (note that mcgraw said AAs, not asians as such); some of these groups are strongly selection biased (see the educational profile of filipino americans and their average income). also, a disproportionate number of vietnamese americans by nationality are chinese by ethnicity (though not the majority). about 10% of thailand’s population are ethnic chinese, and these form the business & professional elites, so i wouldn’t be surprised if a disproportionate number of thai migrants are also ethnic chinese (thailand is one southeast asian nation where the chinese-nonchinese boundary is much more fluid, so take the terminology with appropriate caution). facts do matter, let’s not forget them in specific cases and just go by the generalities for ease of conjecture.

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  • much better than whites: Block Design 
    better than whites: Arithmetic, Digit Span, Picture Completion, Picture Arrangement, Object Assembly 
    comparable to whites: Similarities, Digit Symbol 
    worse than whites: Information, Comprehension 
     
    http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2006/07/numerical-processing-in-whites-and_17.php 
     
    It is interesting that the less the test used spatial visualization, the more comparable Asians were to whites. It is also interesting that areas that are more verbal whites outperformed Asians. I am Jewish, so I find this information interesting (since it could apply to me). Before you say this is culural, keep in mind that a higher White verbal IQ also applies when Asians born in Western cultures were tested, or Asians using their own language. PISA international tests also conform this (Korea was the only exception). I also notice that not only whites tend to be more extraverted, they tend to be quicker at finding the right words in coversations. I would love to see an MRI scan comparing whites and asians. Perhaps whites have a larger hippocampus, the area responsible for memory.

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  • The multimodality of the AA population shouldn’t sway the numbers too much. The high performers (Indian, Pakistanis, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Filipinos) are the overwhelming bulk of the AA population. Even a lot of 2nd generation SE Asians (Vietnamese, Thai) aren’t really performing any worse than the white mean and may be doing even better. Sure Hmong and Lao perform at no higher than the black mean, but they’re ~5% of the AA population and almost negligible. So 105 might be a good enough estimate for Chinese or Koreans.  
     
    Is your name really McGraw? 
     
    Typically the IQs of Filipinos, Vietnamesse, and Thai, tend to be lower then the white average. If you want to find Asians with higher average IQs, look at the north-east Asian elite. (Japanesse, Chinesse, Koreans, etc) This was documented heavily in Richard Lynn’s work. Jews tend to have the higher IQs then Asians, so it is no surprise that they overrepresent in Ivy League schools, and are pigeonholed as white. This could be the actual reason why whites are more overrepresented then IQ implies.

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  • Flynn noted that Chinese-Americans tested at an IQ of 98.5, but performed at ~120. 
     
    It does seem that Asians seem to overrepresent in great universities far more then their measley 5-7 point higher IQ average shows. Perhaps the SD curve for Asians is wider? Or perhaps they are simply more conscientious? 
     
    Also, as for your comment Filipinos and Pakistanis, I have a feeling that the former performs worst then whites, and I don’t think there is any data from the latter. I grew up in Chareston where there is a large Filipino population, and they don’t tend to do very well in school.

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  • Just an anecdote: 
     
    I taught at an SAT school in Korea. It was normal for student’s scores to increase 200 or so points on a 2400 point scale in an 8 week program which ate up the entire summer vacation of these kids.
     
     
    It seems that because the average person only increases their score 30 points, people think that it is impossible to raise their score 100 to 200 points. First, we have to consider the possibility that many of the retakers are slackers who’s parents were disapointed with their first score. There is a possibility that the average doesn’t increase much the 2nd time because the avg person didn’t study very hard the 2nd time eithier. When I first took the SAT test w/o studying I scored an 1170. (and I didn’t study very long)When I took it a 2nd time with prep I scored 1290. (which is closer to my psychologist-tested IQ of 133, barely MENSA, ha ha) (1600 point scale) I actually knew a person personally that increased his score 250 points. I also heard many 2nd time success stories through SAT/GRE prep forums, I figure they can’t all be lying. 
     
    Supposdely the SAT is a very g-loaded test, I tend to only partially agree. While there is a large problem-solving element to the test, you have to study for the test. Most of the vocab words don’t appear in everyday conversation or entertainment( and if you think they do you are seriously kidding yourself), and even the math portion can be heavily knowledge based. It seems that the SAT is a measure of both conscientiousness and intelligence, if you are lacking in one you will not do well. (eithier by not studying or not having the intellect to solve the problems) 
     
    I think that there are two types of people with high IQs, the ones that do zero studying but are still exceptionally bright, or those to have gained high IQs through a lifetime of intellectual engagement. I would love to see if there is a correlation between conscientiousness and IQ, but studies have been mixed (with some showing positive and some showing negative and some showing none at all). However, many studies have shown a correlation between IQ and TIE (typical intellectual engagement), which is your general interest in intellectually stimulating activities. (the one study that shown a very weak, negligable correlation, looked mostly at women) Perhaps, some have inflated their IQs furthur through a lifetime of interest in knowledge and firm study habits. ( studies have shown that higher IQ people study more and higher IQ babies tend to be more explorative, no?) Perhaps, this is an explanation why extraverts, who tend to be more interested in people and conversations, tend to have lower IQs on average.

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  • Some sources/influences on my previous post, and my thinking in general, are listed below. I'm not recommending that everyone run off and buy all of these books, but they might pique your curiosity. Of course, to the extent one has time, it's always good to read and re-read the classic h-bd/evolutionary psychology writers such as...
  • What do others think of Vaillant? I just read the reviews of “Spiritual Evolution” on Amazon, and am skeptical — he sounds like too much of a religious apologist, just going by the reviews.

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  • [this is a slightly edited version of what was originally a haloscan comment]I have come to believe that it is crucial to realize that there are other factors in intelligence besides g and its subfactors (e.g. math/performance, visuospatial, verbal, short-term memory). This is important not only factually and scientifically, but politically as well; a less...
  • Asians and Asian-Americans have yet to overtake Westerners either technologically or economically. Perhaps a lack of creativity&curiosity act as a glass ceiling 
     
    Have you looked at say, Red Dot award winners for product design? A good chunk of the names and faces are Asian.

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  • I seem to recll avg sat of 1400-1450 when I was there (sat I), which I guess is 140 or so. I think the sat underestimates math capability since 800 is a low ceiling.

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  • Speaking as someone who has spent time with extremely intelligent math / science people of asian and non-asian ethnicities, and who is one himself, I’ve mostly agreed with the stereotypes. Asian students tend to emphasize memorization above understanding, tend to have less general knowledge about things that aren’t explicitly in the curriculum for some class, and it’s been very rare to have any type of philosophical, political, or literary conversation with asian students. Personally, I blame the parents. 
     
    This is arrant nonsense. 
     
    You cannot understand a body of knowledge until you have memorized a bunch of facts in that field and have organized them in your mind. 
     
    You cannot understand how to ride a bike until you have gotten on the bike and tried to ride and fallen off. No amount of thinking about or understanding of angular momentum is going to help you to ride a bike. 
     
    You cannot proceed in math until you have learned your multiplication tables, and then factorization will be simple for you because, for example, the factors of 56 will come, unbidden, to your mind. Learning those tables, however, is simple memorization. 
     
    A good memory, and the development of memory skills is the key to learning in any area. 
     
    The other thing I notice Asian students do is to practice and practice the material. They do math/physics/whatever problems over and over, like a young African American practicing his basketball moves, or a young Tiger Woods practicing his putting or golf swing. 
     
    And we all typically practice those things we are good at … of course, today’s world has more slots for people who are good at math or engineering or other technical areas than slots for basketball players or golfers.

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  • Richard Hsu wrote: 
     
    “Caltech has the highest Asian population among elite privates (33%, so a factor of 3 or more overrepresentation depending on whether you normalize to California or the US as a whole). The average IQ there is probably around 145. 3x overrepresentation is entirely consistent with relative population fractions at IQ=145 (see Razib’s numbers above).” 
     
    Isn’t an IQ of 145 somewhere around the 99.9th percentile, if I recall correctly. The average SAT score at Caltech is 2235, which is between the 99th and 99.5th%ile, and probably closer to 99th.  
     
    Given that essentially all students at Caltech must be intensely driven to begin with, plus the above average demands of asian parents in particular, it’s more than likely that “true” IQs are below that level. I mean, I acknowledge that Caltech students are smart, but I think a lot of people here are both underestimating the insanity that passes for parenting among many asian parents, and the intelligence requirements for admissions to top schools. 
     
    Just an anecdote: 
     
    I taught at an SAT school in Korea. It was normal for student’s scores to increase 200 or so points on a 2400 point scale in an 8 week program which ate up the entire summer vacation of these kids. 
     
    4 hours per day plus 4 hours of homework, 5 days per week, and many of the students were enrolled in another school at the same time, so they would do another 2 or 3 hours of math prep in the evenings. Many of the kids had been in the program every summer for two or more summers. One girl was 12 years old, in 8th grade, already prepping for the SAT. Granted this is the extreme, but almost all korean kids go through some version of this. Many of these kids were traumatized by the experience. Intellectual curiosity was non-existent, probably not because of a genetic trait, but mostly because learning became an unpleasant experience and was only to be done for specific tasks, and not for enjoyment. Kids didn’t know how to learn on their own, didn’t read, had absolutely no general knowledge, yet were scoring quite well on SATs. 
     
    I think most of these stereotypes have quite a bit of truth to them. I think much of it may be cultural, but it’s there. Without research we can’t really say much more. 
     
    “I find it amusing that some guys with no experience with elite engineers, scientists and technologists have strong opinions about what groups are curious or incurious. I think you should spend some time with the Asian kids at Caltech or engineers at Sony :-)” 
     
    Speaking as someone who has spent time with extremely intelligent math / science people of asian and non-asian ethnicities, and who is one himself, I’ve mostly agreed with the stereotypes. Asian students tend to emphasize memorization above understanding, tend to have less general knowledge about things that aren’t explicitly in the curriculum for some class, and it’s been very rare to have any type of philosophical, political, or literary conversation with asian students. Personally, I blame the parents.

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  • Some sources/influences on my previous post, and my thinking in general, are listed below. I'm not recommending that everyone run off and buy all of these books, but they might pique your curiosity. Of course, to the extent one has time, it's always good to read and re-read the classic h-bd/evolutionary psychology writers such as...
  • Everybody uses Orwell against their enemies, which was the opposite of the effect that Orwell was hoping for. 
     
    Emerson’s corollary to Godwin’s law: If the venue is too savvy or high-brow (or pretentious) for Godwin’s law to apply as is, due to the fact that all participants are aware of it and consciously avoid mentioning the Nazis, just replace “the Nazis” with “Big Brother” or some other 1984 reference. 
     
    I consider all of these works, as those of Murray, Sailer [...] to be good examples of what George Orwell called “the empirical habit of thought,” 
     
    I wasn’t aware that reckless data selection was part of “the empirical habit of thought”, but maybe my memory is a bit foggy.

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  • [this is a slightly edited version of what was originally a haloscan comment]I have come to believe that it is crucial to realize that there are other factors in intelligence besides g and its subfactors (e.g. math/performance, visuospatial, verbal, short-term memory). This is important not only factually and scientifically, but politically as well; a less...
  • Here’s what Flynn had to say: 
     
    “The Chinese Americans I studied were the generation born in 1945-1949. They were no higher than whites even for non-verbal IQ yet out-performed whites by a huge margin in terms of eventual occupational status. That meant that they could give their own children the kind of privileged environment they had never had. The result was a pattern of IQ that put the subsequent generation of Chinese Americans at an IQ of 109 at say age six gradually falling to 103 by the late teens, as parental influence faded away in favor of peers. The extra 3 points the present generation has as adults is due to the fact that they are in cognitively more demanding universities and professions and because they have internalized a positive attitude to cognitively challenging activities and companions.” 
     
    Flynn noted that Chinese-Americans tested at an IQ of 98.5, but performed at ~120.

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  • If you are still unconvinced, how else would one explain a 25-year old with a 150 IQ, but also with Asperger’s Syndrome/autism spectrum disorder, living on the streets… 
     
    Yes, autism research shows that there is at least one class of cognitive tasks (roughly speaking, “theory of mind”) where higher IQ doesn’t translate into better perfomance at the task. 
     
    I find it pretty wierd that things like the ability to understand metaphors (“Thowing the baby out with the bathwater.” etc) are associated with Theory of Mind. (Or rather: impairment of both is found together). You wouldn’t intuitively expect language processing to be split across two mental modules, with the module responsible for “metaphors” also handling recogizing faces, recognizing facial expressions and reasoning about other peoples’ intentions.

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