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    Many Communists, leftists, and even patriots (I'm sorry to say) have a pronounced tendency to make out the Soviet economy as not quite the resounding failure it really was - or even to paint it as a success story that was only brought down by perestroika and liberal reforms. The above chart - based on...
  • […] <Note 3 – Soviet Economy> It’s worth pointing out that “socialism never works” mantra is obviously untrue, because: – It did work in USSR for 60 years – Very heavily socialized Chinese economy has rapidly overtaken USA and EU (by GDP-PPP) – Many EU countries are heavily socialist I found a very eloquent comment by Alexander Mercouris to an article by Anatoly Karlin. I think that comment describes Russian economic history over the past century rather well. It’s too long to present here in full, but I linked it below. By the way, I think that the Karlin article, that Mercouris was commenting on, is far less useful and true than the comment itself. http://www.unz.com/akarlin/the-soviet-economy-charting-failure/#comment-836022 […]

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  • Despite the generally loathsome nature of The Economist, it does have its advantages most of which can be reduced to its Daily Charts blog which focuses on statistics as opposed to rhetoric. According to the chart above, as of 2012 ever more people, especially in the developed world, are starting to believe that the China...
  • […] the end of the 1990s, China had come to dominate the mainstays of geopolitical power in the 20th century – coal and steel production. As a […]

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  • See data. For real, this time. While it is perhaps a big strange to start thinking of Russia as a high-income economy, it's not so surprising when looking at concrete statistics such as vehicle consumption, Internet penetration, etc. - all of which are now at typical South European and advanced East-Central European levels (even if...
  • […] России по ППС чуть-чуть обогнал германский еще в 2013 году. Это опережение сохранялось и в 2014, […]

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  • […] России по ППС чуть-чуть обогнал германский еще в 2013 году. Это опережение сохранялось и в 2014, […]

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  • As I write the book, I create a lot of graphs. Here is one of them. So in manufacturing terms, as far as cars are concerned, the "deindustrialization" era is decidedly over. Of course it's also important to note that in 1985 they were producing this whereas today they are producing this as well as...
  • […] prosaic but also more generally indicative, Russia produces about 2 million cars annually, which is about the same as in the UK and France, and thrice more than in Italy. This […]

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  • See data. For real, this time. While it is perhaps a big strange to start thinking of Russia as a high-income economy, it's not so surprising when looking at concrete statistics such as vehicle consumption, Internet penetration, etc. - all of which are now at typical South European and advanced East-Central European levels (even if...
  • […] PPP-adjusted GDP actually marginally overtook Germany’s back in 2013, and it managed to maintain this small lead into 2014 despite falling into […]

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  • It is now nearly 20 years since market reformers began liberalizing the economies of Eastern Europe, or as some smart-ass put it, trying to revive the fish in the centrally planned fish stews. These stews, cooked to diverse recipes from goulash socialism to Soviet "structural militarization", were subjected to a wide spectrum of overlapping treatments...
  • Uzbekistan is an unreformed economy, as well as land-locked.
    It is doubly-land-locked. One of only two. The other one, Liechtenstein, is doing much better despite this handicap.

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  • There is, once again, widespread excitement about the prospects of the Indian economy. This comes on the heel of news that India's Q3 growth has now marginally edged above China's, after a statistical adjustment. Can we now expect the Elephant to replace the Dragon as the motor of the world economy? At times like these...
  • @Anonymous
    A few facts to counter the pessimism of this article:

    1. The Indian population is fairly pacific, with violent murder rates quite low for India's GDP and religious/ethnic diversity (in fact absolutely low, particularly in the South). South Indian small towns hardly have any police presence, yet crime rates are low.

    2. Indians have kept democracy going, a feat that much higher IQ Russians (for example) haven't managed yet. It takes a certain maturity to hold onto democracy and that doesn't fit a very low IQ profile. In fact, Modi's election demonstrates a surprising maturity of the Indian electorate.

    3. Indian cities are dirty, Indian hygiene practices are primitive, yet, even in a dirty slum, you generally see families intact and kids could see that they can escape the slum if they study hard. That again reflects maturity that doesn't fit the very low IQ profile.

    4. The IT sector in the US now has a substantial percentage of Indian, particularly South Indian, programmers, *most of whom come from intermediate and low castes*. The companies hiring them would presumably prefer to hire American minorities if at all possible. By and large, the Indians perform well and the hiring companies like them.

    Now, why are the published low IQ figures low? Education levels in India are shockingly uneven, because of extreme poverty. That makes IQ of the poor truly untestable.

    I would invite the smart reader to consider all the facts.

    SouthIndian,

    Most of the people reading this don’t care about the facts, despite Anatoly Karlin making a genuine effort to be fair. They want to reduce everything to IQ, which itself does not account for annual economic growth (why does the economy of any country grow at all if IQ is the sole determinant of prosperity? If the economy of a country grew at 3%, 5%, or 7% over last year, did the IQ of the nation rise?).

    They take the fact that African blacks have created chaos and violence everywhere they exist, and extrapolate that to all non-white races. While it is true that blacks have created dysfunction everywhere, whites are only sometimes prosperous, not always. Countries like Ukraine and Moldova are just as poor as Sri Lanka and India. And China was poorer than sub-Saharan Africa until the 1980s..

    By and large, the Indians perform well and the hiring companies like them.

    Not only are the CEOs of Microsoft, Motorola, and how Google Indians, but they are immigrant Indians, all ascending to the post before the age of 45.

    Sure, anecodotes are not averages, but the notion that IQ is everything is bizarre. Not to mention the fact that while men and women have the same average IQ, almost all innovation is done by men.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    A few facts to counter the pessimism of this article:

    1. The Indian population is fairly pacific, with violent murder rates quite low for India’s GDP and religious/ethnic diversity (in fact absolutely low, particularly in the South). South Indian small towns hardly have any police presence, yet crime rates are low.

    2. Indians have kept democracy going, a feat that much higher IQ Russians (for example) haven’t managed yet. It takes a certain maturity to hold onto democracy and that doesn’t fit a very low IQ profile. In fact, Modi’s election demonstrates a surprising maturity of the Indian electorate.

    3. Indian cities are dirty, Indian hygiene practices are primitive, yet, even in a dirty slum, you generally see families intact and kids could see that they can escape the slum if they study hard. That again reflects maturity that doesn’t fit the very low IQ profile.

    4. The IT sector in the US now has a substantial percentage of Indian, particularly South Indian, programmers, *most of whom come from intermediate and low castes*. The companies hiring them would presumably prefer to hire American minorities if at all possible. By and large, the Indians perform well and the hiring companies like them.

    Now, why are the published low IQ figures low? Education levels in India are shockingly uneven, because of extreme poverty. That makes IQ of the poor truly untestable.

    I would invite the smart reader to consider all the facts.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Toads
    SouthIndian,

    Most of the people reading this don't care about the facts, despite Anatoly Karlin making a genuine effort to be fair. They want to reduce everything to IQ, which itself does not account for annual economic growth (why does the economy of any country grow at all if IQ is the sole determinant of prosperity? If the economy of a country grew at 3%, 5%, or 7% over last year, did the IQ of the nation rise?).

    They take the fact that African blacks have created chaos and violence everywhere they exist, and extrapolate that to all non-white races. While it is true that blacks have created dysfunction everywhere, whites are only sometimes prosperous, not always. Countries like Ukraine and Moldova are just as poor as Sri Lanka and India. And China was poorer than sub-Saharan Africa until the 1980s..

    By and large, the Indians perform well and the hiring companies like them.

    Not only are the CEOs of Microsoft, Motorola, and how Google Indians, but they are immigrant Indians, all ascending to the post before the age of 45.

    Sure, anecodotes are not averages, but the notion that IQ is everything is bizarre. Not to mention the fact that while men and women have the same average IQ, almost all innovation is done by men.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @5371
    Jews don't appear as an ethnic or ancestry group in US Census documents.

    Even so, Indians in the US have outperformed even Jews, as per The Economist :

    http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21651331-india-should-make-more-valuable-asset-abroad-worldwide-web

    “On the usual measures of success they outstrip all other minorities, including Jewish-Americans.”

    The fact that Indians in the US have outstripped every other group puts a lot of HBD assumptions to shame (in fact, South Indians are more represented in knowledge-based fields than North Indians. And Pakistanis and Afghans are whiter still.).

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  • @Tommy
    Nigel,

    I disagree, since the Indian community in the US is the very wealthiest group of all. Wealthier than Chinese, Jews, Anglo-Saxons, or anyone else.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

    While it is common for skeptics to insist that these are the 'cream of the crop' Indians, that is not entirely the case :

    1) Why would the Indians be any more 'cream of the crop' than Chinese or Filipino immigrants?
    2) The wealthiest Indians in the US are not the doctors or software engineers, but the owners of motel and gas station chains. These are very lucrative once you own 4-5 or more of them.
    3) Indian success seems to be continuing into their 2nd and 3rd generation. Hence, this success has gone on for too long, over too large of a community, to attribute to only the top 1% of Indians coming to America.
    4) Wealthy people in India don't come to America. They have it made. It is specifically people who are either a) educated but poor, or b) families who want to all join up into a chain of business ownership that come to the US. Hence, this also proves that the elite of India don't come here.

    Jews don’t appear as an ethnic or ancestry group in US Census documents.

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    • Replies: @Tommy
    Even so, Indians in the US have outperformed even Jews, as per The Economist :

    http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21651331-india-should-make-more-valuable-asset-abroad-worldwide-web

    "On the usual measures of success they outstrip all other minorities, including Jewish-Americans."

    The fact that Indians in the US have outstripped every other group puts a lot of HBD assumptions to shame (in fact, South Indians are more represented in knowledge-based fields than North Indians. And Pakistanis and Afghans are whiter still.).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • India’s per capita GDP, while very low, is about the same as what….

    South Korea was in 1986
    Poland was in 1991
    Russia was in 2000
    Ukraine was in 2006

    So being 29 years behind S. Korea, 24 years behind Poland, 15 years behind Russia, and 9 years behind Ukraine (that too assuming India grows only at the same rate as those countries between then and now, when indeed India is growing faster), is hardly evidence of genetic inferiority.

    The genetics/IQ argument has its place, but people beclown themselves when they use this while forgetting about how quickly compound annual growth rates can compound up.

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  • @Anonymous
    India is nothing but a sort of Brazil/ Mexico formed by the mixing of various races mostly Australoids and Whites (with some East Asian/ Semitic thrown in). Just like how Spaniards/ Portuguese (along with a few other Europeans serving in the Portuguese/ Spanish armies as well as settlers) mixed with native Americans and Blacks to create the colourful Hispanic race, in India replace Native Americans/ Blacks with Australoids and Spaniards with Eastern European ancestors (Aryans from Central Asia) and you have Indians. Thus you see a massive variation in IQ. India has always been a land of excessive variation in IQ and wealth. You had some of the richest people in the world (merchants/ rajas/ sultans/ governers) living among some of the most poorest destitute people in the world (the common folks). This has ALWAYS been the case, be it in Hindu-Buddhist times, during Mughal-Islamic times, during the British Empire (there were super rich Indians like Marwari/ Gujrathi industrialists and Maharajas in British India) and post Independence India/ pakistan/Bangladesh. This is how India has always been and will always be.
    Similarly with IQ. You had Indians writing high philosophy, discussing huge numerical problems while the majority lived in superstion and ignorance. Maybe Buddhism/ Christianity will reduce this inherent Brazil style inequality upto some extent but unfortunately most people of the Subcontinent are Hindu-Muslims.
    Indian settled places like Mauritus or Trinidad (thanks to oil) have done well upto some extent but pale in comparison to Chinese outposts like Singapore and Taiwan.
    The fact of the matter is that Northern Europeans and North East Asian always tend to build the best societies provided they do not go for some stupid ideology like communism (N. Korea). We Indians are skrewed by our genetics.

    South Asia is 1.7 Billion people.

    Even if only 10% of those have IQs of 100, that is still 170 million people.

    In America, there are 200M white people, of which half have IQs over 100. So 100M.

    So despite the low percentage, there are still 170M South Asians with IQs above 100, vs. 100M white Americans.

    Plus, the white vs. Australoid point is not complete, since by that metric, the much whiter Afghanistan and Pakistan would be more prosperous than Sri Lanka. In reality, the opposite is true – Sri Lanka is far more prosperous than Pakistan or Afghanistan, so greater Euro-whiteness has not led to prosperity. Perhaps Islam is a bigger negative than whiteness is a positive, but reducing everything to genetics/IQ is bound to lead to massive errors.

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  • @Nigel
    I think that many Westerners have the unfortunate tendency to overstate India's potential.

    We mustn't forget that the average IQ of India is only 82 and oftentimes the standard of living in India is barely different than that among blacks in Sub-Sahara Africa.

    I have lived both in India and Africa (with my parents), and I can safely say that the quality of life in India is only barely better than black Sub-Sahara Africa. I don't think that many Westerners truly realize how corrupt, dysfunctional and dirty India is. I mean, at our local river we'd actually see dead bodies and feces floating by on a regular basis.

    The real potential lies with China, not India.

    Nigel,

    I disagree, since the Indian community in the US is the very wealthiest group of all. Wealthier than Chinese, Jews, Anglo-Saxons, or anyone else.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

    While it is common for skeptics to insist that these are the ‘cream of the crop’ Indians, that is not entirely the case :

    1) Why would the Indians be any more ‘cream of the crop’ than Chinese or Filipino immigrants?
    2) The wealthiest Indians in the US are not the doctors or software engineers, but the owners of motel and gas station chains. These are very lucrative once you own 4-5 or more of them.
    3) Indian success seems to be continuing into their 2nd and 3rd generation. Hence, this success has gone on for too long, over too large of a community, to attribute to only the top 1% of Indians coming to America.
    4) Wealthy people in India don’t come to America. They have it made. It is specifically people who are either a) educated but poor, or b) families who want to all join up into a chain of business ownership that come to the US. Hence, this also proves that the elite of India don’t come here.

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    Jews don't appear as an ethnic or ancestry group in US Census documents.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Via The Economist, I've come across some fascinating research by Orley Ashenfelter and Stepan Jurajda (Comparing Real Wage Rates, 2012) showing how real wages can be meaningfully compared across different regions by taking notes on prices and wages in McDonald's restaurants. The methodology seems solid. Big Macs are a very standardized product, hence they are...
  • i want to appreciate mike owen of [email protected] for helping me to get my loan
    i have being scammed $5,000 by bdifferent fake loan lenders and i was at a point of selling my properties
    to make ends meet. untill i saw a post on the internet on how a friend from croatia got her loan from
    the firm access loan firm and i also applied with same faith. and i got my loan with no stress after
    agreeing to the repayment terms and conditions of the firm. avoid internet scammers now!
    if you are in need for a loan to start up a buisness, car loan, medical bills, projects loans, education etc.
    contact the firm access loans firm via [email protected]

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  • In a new paper at the (conveniently open) journal The Winnower (h/t @whyvert), building on his earlier work, geneticist Davide Piffer has tried to calculate the genotypic IQs of various world populations, and how they compare to measured phenotypic IQ: Piffer, David - Estimating the genotypic intelligence of populations and assessing the impact of socioeconomic...
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @rec1man
    Regarding the South Asian section,
    you have done the first step in doing various linguistic groups, but within each linguistic group, there is wide variation in IQ, due to caste system. Some castes need affirmative action and some get reverse discrimination for each linguistic group

    Sri Lankan Tamils in UK - variation between high caste Velala vs rest low castes

    Telegu - variation bet high caste brahmin, Kamma, Reddy vs rest low castes

    Gujurati - variation between high caste brahmin, Jains, merchants vs medium caste Patels ( about 80% of sample )

    Yes, 63 out of the 93 GIH samples belong to “Patels” (the rest are of various Caste/community backgrounds). But these Patels aren’t even Middle Caste, they’re actually Shudras and are basically upwardly mobile Tribals.

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  • @AnotherDad
    This strikes me as an interesting exercise. Worth doing. Thank you Mr. Piffer.

    But isn't the obvious caveat here that it's only four SNPs?

    I think it's pretty obvious--to those not completely blinded by leftist or religious dogma--that the *main* selection that's been going on amongst human beings this last 100,000 years--and before that--has been in mental traits. Sure we have some--very important--other stuff, like adjusting to an adaptations to high latitude, handling an agricultural diet (ex. lactose persistence), disease resistance (with the huge increase from animal husbandry). But accompanying that the main event--the main grinder of selection--is going to have been on mental traits. IQ, conscientiousness, cooperation (getting along with and getting aid form others), etc. etc. Everything that has some people making wise choices, work hard and have productive relations with folks and others ... not so much. That's where the action has been and there are probably thousands of SNPs involved.

    For instance ... Vietnam. Does anyone really believe they are smarter than the Chinese? This is a "Chinesey" population but blended with tropical folks and without an as extensive exam system giving "book smarts" a high reproductive payoff for a centuries. Those two factors alone should be worth at least five or more IQ points. I'd suggest they just happen to be enriched in one of these SNPs, but are deficient in some others that selection has favored in the Chinese, but which aren't one of the four in this sample.

    Again, this strikes me as a useful exercise. It's basically confirming the rough but pretty clear picture we have--a rough ranking of populations on IQ and a rough handle on the sort of hit underdevelopment takes in populations.

    More confirmation for what people really should know by now--Ghana's not about to become Korea anytime soon.

    But until we have more SNPs to throw into the mix--a better picture (even if statistical and very fuzzy) of the genes behind intelligence variation--i think that's about the level of certainty we have.

    For instance … Vietnam. Does anyone really believe they are smarter than the Chinese? This is a “Chinesey” population but blended with tropical folks and without an as extensive exam system giving “book smarts” a high reproductive payoff for a centuries. Those two factors alone should be worth at least five or more IQ points.

    Vietnam had a higher literacy rate than Japan, China, and Korea before the French colonized it for a long and rather destructive (genocidal) century. Vietnam’s, China’s and Korea’s literacy rates plumetted down to 15-20%, depending on the country, as a result of colonialism imposed by the West and Japan.

    Vietnam is Chinesey in culture, not genetics. Academic achievement of overseas Vietnamese is consistently high along side with that of the other Chinesey peoples, i.e. Chinese, Korean, Japanese. Overseas Chinese, Korean, Japanese are essentially all elite, or self-selected, immigrants. Most overseas Vietnamese are “boat people”, or are their offspring.

    Because Vietnam was a Chinese province during the first millennium, it, the people, were Confucian centuries before their counterparts in Japan and Korea, or for that matter, many parts of what is now modern day China.

    Vietnamese Australian PISA scores were higher than Chinese Australian PISA scores.

    BTW, what is the genetics of southern Han?

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  • @Steve Sailer
    The high score for Vietnam on the 2012 PISA test is related to only about 55% or so of the sample of 15 year olds showing up to take the test.

    The easiest way to boost your test scores is to not be able to find your dropouts. In contrast, Argentina has a very bad PISA score but in part it's because they try harder than comparable countries to round up kids who aren't very school-oriented. The missing fraction of the sample is about twice as big in higher scoring than in Argentina.

    By the way, the famous high scores of Finns seem legit: they got 96% compliance.

    Steve-O,

    You’re assuming Vietnamese drop outs are dumb. Do you know for sure that the 15 year olds who didn’t show up for PISA 2012 didn’t show up due to economic reasons?

    Even Amy Chua who left the Vietnamese out of her group of elites, i.e. Chinese, Jews, Nigerians, Mormons, etc., has curiously spoken of blue collar Vietnamese Americans outperforming their white collar white counterparts in school.

    More over, Jason Malloy puts Vietnamese American “AQ” at 104 and rising, and Vietnamese Australian “AQ” at 109.

    VIETNAMESE CULTURE IS CONFUCIAN. It puts paramount emphasis on education. That is why blue collar Vietnamese will outperform white collar whites. The drop-out who didn’t show up for 2012 PISA would still on average do better than his/her white collar counterpart in the US of A.

    If you don’t understand confucianism, you might be confused. Git er done!

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  • There is, once again, widespread excitement about the prospects of the Indian economy. This comes on the heel of news that India's Q3 growth has now marginally edged above China's, after a statistical adjustment. Can we now expect the Elephant to replace the Dragon as the motor of the world economy? At times like these...
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    India is nothing but a sort of Brazil/ Mexico formed by the mixing of various races mostly Australoids and Whites (with some East Asian/ Semitic thrown in). Just like how Spaniards/ Portuguese (along with a few other Europeans serving in the Portuguese/ Spanish armies as well as settlers) mixed with native Americans and Blacks to create the colourful Hispanic race, in India replace Native Americans/ Blacks with Australoids and Spaniards with Eastern European ancestors (Aryans from Central Asia) and you have Indians. Thus you see a massive variation in IQ. India has always been a land of excessive variation in IQ and wealth. You had some of the richest people in the world (merchants/ rajas/ sultans/ governers) living among some of the most poorest destitute people in the world (the common folks). This has ALWAYS been the case, be it in Hindu-Buddhist times, during Mughal-Islamic times, during the British Empire (there were super rich Indians like Marwari/ Gujrathi industrialists and Maharajas in British India) and post Independence India/ pakistan/Bangladesh. This is how India has always been and will always be.
    Similarly with IQ. You had Indians writing high philosophy, discussing huge numerical problems while the majority lived in superstion and ignorance. Maybe Buddhism/ Christianity will reduce this inherent Brazil style inequality upto some extent but unfortunately most people of the Subcontinent are Hindu-Muslims.
    Indian settled places like Mauritus or Trinidad (thanks to oil) have done well upto some extent but pale in comparison to Chinese outposts like Singapore and Taiwan.
    The fact of the matter is that Northern Europeans and North East Asian always tend to build the best societies provided they do not go for some stupid ideology like communism (N. Korea). We Indians are skrewed by our genetics.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Toads
    South Asia is 1.7 Billion people.

    Even if only 10% of those have IQs of 100, that is still 170 million people.

    In America, there are 200M white people, of which half have IQs over 100. So 100M.

    So despite the low percentage, there are still 170M South Asians with IQs above 100, vs. 100M white Americans.

    Plus, the white vs. Australoid point is not complete, since by that metric, the much whiter Afghanistan and Pakistan would be more prosperous than Sri Lanka. In reality, the opposite is true - Sri Lanka is far more prosperous than Pakistan or Afghanistan, so greater Euro-whiteness has not led to prosperity. Perhaps Islam is a bigger negative than whiteness is a positive, but reducing everything to genetics/IQ is bound to lead to massive errors.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • In a new paper at the (conveniently open) journal The Winnower (h/t @whyvert), building on his earlier work, geneticist Davide Piffer has tried to calculate the genotypic IQs of various world populations, and how they compare to measured phenotypic IQ: Piffer, David - Estimating the genotypic intelligence of populations and assessing the impact of socioeconomic...
  • […] have the highest median IQ range but lack creativity? Even the poorest east asian vietcong(Genetics, IQ, and Convergence – The Unz Review) also regularly join these tournaments and shows worldwide so not surprising… These types of […]

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  • @PandaAtWar
    So Vietnam has genotypic IQ of 106, even higher than the Han Chinese.

    Right... Is this Whyvert guy serious? Or has he been already long on some SE Asia Fund or sth? I´d triple-check the raw data if I were him.

    I am Vietnamese and I don’t believe the Vietnamese IQ potential is second only to the Jews.It is too good to be true and most likely it is not true.

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  • There is, once again, widespread excitement about the prospects of the Indian economy. This comes on the heel of news that India's Q3 growth has now marginally edged above China's, after a statistical adjustment. Can we now expect the Elephant to replace the Dragon as the motor of the world economy? At times like these...
  • @Numinous
    Most of those people who don't have indoor plumbing happen to possess cell phones. It's not about luxury but about misplaced priorities and lack of awareness of hygiene (perhaps a different measure of backwardness.)

    Cellphones are dirt cheap (pardon the pun) while indoor plumbing requires a lot more investment at all levels – from the individual to the local community to the state, with no visible benefit. Using the commons as a toilet on the other hand is ‘free’.

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  • @Jefferson
    "It’s a nonsensical grouping to compare to"

    The Human Development Index is not nonsensical at all. It does a pretty accurate job of assessing which countries are are advanced and which countries are backwards. You know India is a backwards country when indoor plumbing is considered a luxury there where in countries that have a higher Human Development Index everybody takes indoor plumbing for granted.

    Most of those people who don’t have indoor plumbing happen to possess cell phones. It’s not about luxury but about misplaced priorities and lack of awareness of hygiene (perhaps a different measure of backwardness.)

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    • Replies: @Escher
    Cellphones are dirt cheap (pardon the pun) while indoor plumbing requires a lot more investment at all levels - from the individual to the local community to the state, with no visible benefit. Using the commons as a toilet on the other hand is 'free'.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “It’s a nonsensical grouping to compare to”

    The Human Development Index is not nonsensical at all. It does a pretty accurate job of assessing which countries are are advanced and which countries are backwards. You know India is a backwards country when indoor plumbing is considered a luxury there where in countries that have a higher Human Development Index everybody takes indoor plumbing for granted.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Numinous
    Most of those people who don't have indoor plumbing happen to possess cell phones. It's not about luxury but about misplaced priorities and lack of awareness of hygiene (perhaps a different measure of backwardness.)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Does China’s economy follow the cycle of sunspots?

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  • Vanya Shivshankar, a Gowda, peasant landlord , mid-level ranking caste, just won USA child genius $100k prize on tv, handily beating 1 white and 2 oriental competitors with a huge margin, in the finals

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  • In a new paper at the (conveniently open) journal The Winnower (h/t @whyvert), building on his earlier work, geneticist Davide Piffer has tried to calculate the genotypic IQs of various world populations, and how they compare to measured phenotypic IQ: Piffer, David - Estimating the genotypic intelligence of populations and assessing the impact of socioeconomic...
  • j says: • Website
    @Jefferson
    "UPDATE: The Argentina outlier is solved. According to Steve Sailer, Argentina’s low score is thanks to the scrupulousness of its school administrators, who – unlike most other countries – took the effort to track down the truants and drop-outs, who constituted 39% of its school-age population."

    Why is the school drop out rate so high in Argentina when supposedly most of it's population is not Brown and Black ? Argentina must be full of poor White trash, either that or a lot of the people self identifying as "White" in Argentina are actually Multiracial like Diego Maradona for example.

    Argentina’s population “whiteness” is not based on individual self identification. It is based on the self-imagen of the elite a hundred years ago and this “whiteness” still sticks to the country. In those times the country was among the wealthiest of the world, therefore white. The Argentine “Criollo” that is the local White is about 40% American Indian (on the female sides) just like the Costa Rican, Colombian and other Spanish American “White” populations. Moreover, the whitening effect of two three decades of South European immigration is being diluted, as these Europeans did not reproduce much and most (yes, most) emigrated back to Europe or the USA. Also, in the last one hundred years there had been continuous free immigration from Bolivia and Paraguay, that are basically Quechua and Guarani countries respectively, and to my surprise, today one finds growing Indian tribes that only a generation ago were unknown in the center as they had been almost exterminated and pushed to far-away margins. I dont think there ever be an Argentine census where race will be mentioned, so the best one can say is that it is a mixed population, basically Indian on the maternal side. Regarding the , noscrupulousness of Argentine school administrators – is it a joke, is it?

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  • There is, once again, widespread excitement about the prospects of the Indian economy. This comes on the heel of news that India's Q3 growth has now marginally edged above China's, after a statistical adjustment. Can we now expect the Elephant to replace the Dragon as the motor of the world economy? At times like these...
  • @Jefferson
    China is quickly catching up with Eastern European/Balkan countries in terms of Human Development Index. China already has a higher Human Development Index than Albania for example.

    Meanwhile India's Human Development Index is still closer to that of Sub Saharan African countries than it is to Eastern European/Balkan countries.

    China has definitely seen way more improvement than India when it comes to increasing the standard of living for it's people.

    China could one day experience the same miracle that South Korea did, a country which went from being dirt poor to 1st world.

    China is quickly catching up with Eastern European/Balkan countries in terms of Human Development Index. China already has a higher Human Development Index than Albania for example.

    It’s a nonsensical grouping to compare to. In HDI terms, “Balkan” countries range from 29th to 95th, “Eastern European” ones from 25th to 114th.

    Too lazy to check the SSA countries too.

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  • http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-31557192

    Why homeless Britons are turning to the Sikh community for food

    After the 2008 recession many Sikh temples reported a surge in the numbers of non-Sikhs coming in for the free Langar meals. It’s now common to see non-Sikhs inside the temple

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  • In a new paper at the (conveniently open) journal The Winnower (h/t @whyvert), building on his earlier work, geneticist Davide Piffer has tried to calculate the genotypic IQs of various world populations, and how they compare to measured phenotypic IQ: Piffer, David - Estimating the genotypic intelligence of populations and assessing the impact of socioeconomic...
  • @Whyvert
    The Flynn effect in the Third World is underwhelming. I checked Flynn's book "Are We Getting Smarter?" and he cites only a few studies for developing nations. One gave Kenya almost 1 added IQ point per year over 14 years, by far the speediest Flynn effect of any. A study of Saudi Arabia 0.3 points per year over 33 years. Dominica 0.5 gain per year. Turkey 0.5 per year. Sudan 0.2. Brazil 0.2 gain per year. (Note: I doubt if any of these studies is particularly high-powered.)

    This is not significantly faster than the Flynn effect has been developed countries (ranging from about 0.2-0.8 points gained per year).

    Why, I wonder, would Kenya have lots of Flynn effect increase and those others less (if the figures are valid)?

    Kenya is on track to meet a goal to halve their illiteracy by this year. Changes in literacy rates are the actual cause of the Flynn effect.

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  • None of you have any credibility, because none of you have any idea what “IQ” or “intelligence” is. You have such a weird soup of chat here — your personal opinions about Mexicans in California, the Russo-Japanese War, the supposedly underachieving Vietnamese (like you can get accurate IQ numbers on a Communist dictatorship anyway, haha), mosquitos, alleged viral loading, and countless other subjective opinions and speculated “invisible” blah blah blahs – that you’re like a sow in a slop rut – disgusting, and going nowhere, but enjoying the hell out of it.

    Intelligence is nothing but a number derived through the exploratory technique of Principal Factors Analysis. Calling it “psychometric” is sheer arrogance, as no one knows what it is. “Intelligence” is just a subjective (but admittedly seductive) label, just like the other labels attached to the outputs of exploratory statistical techniques.

    One thing that IS known is that intelligence is so highly correlated with literacy that it’s basically redundant. Have you noticed that all of these down-and-out countries you scorn have incredibly high illiteracy?

    I know what you’ll come back with – that literacy depends on IQ. But – an identical twin study that’s been done seems to show the opposite.

    Never mind that, though, I’d like to get you out of the dumpster you’re cluster-romancing each other in by posing a challenge, Define intelligence. Tell me what it is. This is open-book – feel free to web surf for the answer, or even go to the LIBRARY. It would be good for you to stop your armchair speculations and face facts.

    –Professor Obvious

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  • There is, once again, widespread excitement about the prospects of the Indian economy. This comes on the heel of news that India's Q3 growth has now marginally edged above China's, after a statistical adjustment. Can we now expect the Elephant to replace the Dragon as the motor of the world economy? At times like these...
  • China is quickly catching up with Eastern European/Balkan countries in terms of Human Development Index. China already has a higher Human Development Index than Albania for example.

    Meanwhile India’s Human Development Index is still closer to that of Sub Saharan African countries than it is to Eastern European/Balkan countries.

    China has definitely seen way more improvement than India when it comes to increasing the standard of living for it’s people.

    China could one day experience the same miracle that South Korea did, a country which went from being dirt poor to 1st world.

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    • Replies: @BBQQQQ

    China is quickly catching up with Eastern European/Balkan countries in terms of Human Development Index. China already has a higher Human Development Index than Albania for example.
     
    It's a nonsensical grouping to compare to. In HDI terms, "Balkan" countries range from 29th to 95th, "Eastern European" ones from 25th to 114th.

    Too lazy to check the SSA countries too.
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  • The British Indian diaspora is definitely not as upper-caste dominated as the Indian community in the United States. And yet, they’re still fairly well-to-do, by no means a gangster culture or an insular chinatown sort of community.

    Even in the US, the Patel caste, which is probably the most widespread, is not an upper caste. Its members were mostly powerful landholders, but technically mid-to-low-level in the caste hierarchy.
    If the Patels in the US can do so well and produce so many doctors and what not, it gives me some reason to be optimistic for the rest of India as well.

    The actual upper caste Indians in the US are mostly first-generation workers in Silicon Valley and research universities. Their migrations were more recent than that of the Patels, so the impact made by their offspring is yet to be seen in large numbers.

    I think much of Indian achievement, especially in the diaspora comes from a culture of keeping your head down and focusing on academics – not so much from innate IQ.

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  • @Anonymous
    "Many were Gujurati, formerly railroad building coolies from Uganda – Patel peasants from Gujurat, mid-range IQ"

    I can't evaluate every statement made by the poster but I can tell you this one is a big distortion.

    Thousands of Indian laborers and also clerks were brought over to East Africa to build the Nairobi railway. Most left after the project was completed. By that time merchants from India arrived following the laborers and clerks. These merchants stayed and grew in number as new waves of merchants continuously went to India.

    In fact of all the mega rich Indian descended families in East Africa, all trace back their heritage to merchants who arrived 4-5 generations ago in Africa.

    So calling the population in Uganda the descendants of railway coolies is a gross distortion.

    There are-were Gujrati merchants in Uganda, many of them were Ismaili muslims,
    The bulk of the gujrati pop in UK, Uganda, east Africa, is-was Patels ( peasants from Gujurat )
    They also run most motels in USA
    Patels are very rich in the USA, too, despite being of peasant stock and not too bright

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Many were Gujurati, formerly railroad building coolies from Uganda – Patel peasants from Gujurat, mid-range IQ”

    I can’t evaluate every statement made by the poster but I can tell you this one is a big distortion.

    Thousands of Indian laborers and also clerks were brought over to East Africa to build the Nairobi railway. Most left after the project was completed. By that time merchants from India arrived following the laborers and clerks. These merchants stayed and grew in number as new waves of merchants continuously went to India.

    In fact of all the mega rich Indian descended families in East Africa, all trace back their heritage to merchants who arrived 4-5 generations ago in Africa.

    So calling the population in Uganda the descendants of railway coolies is a gross distortion.

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    • Replies: @rec1man
    There are-were Gujrati merchants in Uganda, many of them were Ismaili muslims,
    The bulk of the gujrati pop in UK, Uganda, east Africa, is-was Patels ( peasants from Gujurat )
    They also run most motels in USA
    Patels are very rich in the USA, too, despite being of peasant stock and not too bright
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  • http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11409181/British-Muslims-integration-and-segregation-are-about-economics-not-values.html

    Here is recent data from the UK Indian diaspora

    The UK Indian diaspora is a non-selected diaspora, more of a mid-grade-blend

    Many of them were Punjabis ( Pakistani Muslim and Sikh peasants ) imported in 1950 to fill in labor shortages

    Many were Gujurati, formerly railroad building coolies from Uganda – Patel peasants from Gujurat, mid-range IQ

    Some of the Hindus are Sri Lankan tamil dravidian refugees

    Less than 10% of UK Indian diaspora is elite – brahmin-merchant
    by comparison , 40% of USA Indian diaspora is elite, brahmin-merchant

    Overall UK with college degree = 27%
    Overall Muslim with college degree = 24%
    Sikhs with college degree = 30%
    Hindu with college degree = 44%

    In UK, Hindus are heading to be a socio-economically dominant elite, despite not having too many elite castes –

    Sikhs are mid-range in Indian IQ, there is a whole genre of dumb-sikh jokes and they have slightly exceeded whites

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  • India is not one entity but made of multiple isolated sub systems . The Hindu God of 30,000 has its parallel in the composition of the society . But the elite control the worship of the gods ( Only Brahmin can officitae any religious ritual) and elite control the rest of the population whose IQ possibly range form 80 to 81 .The elite control the resources ,politics,and the narrative . West sees the elite and mixes it up (intentionally ) with the potential of the entire population .
    Western recognition of Indian achievment is often used by the elite to consolidate existing psychological power and gain more over . So one Ambani or a Brtish Hinduja , a few hotel owner or some succeeful celebrties like Sanjoy Gupta or new Surgeon General are brandished as evidences of “India shining” across the media .The purpose of this claim is not to motivate the population but to exert morte control ,exploit more ,and keep them in awe of the elite . Often this segment is allowed to vent thier frustration through killing of the religious minorities .
    India is a country where the rich upper class with connections through tribal family values and DNA basically use the rest of the population .The rest are conditioned to accept this dispensation as something to be proud of !

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  • There is no shine in India. Let’s revisit in 100 years. One thing that may help is a wider Christianization. The Northeastern states + Kerala have literacy rates in the 90%+ range thanks to missionaries. The Hindu heartland is as backward as backward can be.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    By GDP India has significantly fallen behind China.

    In 2013, the World Bank estimates for GDP per capita (nominal rather than PPP adjusted) that India had a per capita of 1509 versus a per capita in China of 6959.

    In 15 years the gap will grow from 4:1 now to 8:1.

    I take into account currency depreciation and appreciation which is routinely left out in discussion about future GDP.

    The Indian currency will probably depreciate from 60 to 1 us dollar to 120 us dollar in the future while in the same time period the Chinese currency may appreciate to 4 to 1 us dollar.

    This is because of China’s strong export performance. Wages are increasing in China but exports are becoming higher value.

    India has a poor export performance with the exception of services in IT and business process outsourcing. Wages are increasing very fast in these sectors but so is the value of service exports. From low level IT customer service work, Indian IT companies are moving into IT consulting.

    However, all of IT and BPO in India employs just 3 million workers. This includes even the low level work. With wage increases in the double digits, I think the size of this industry is limited in terms of number of employees but it still has much potential in the complexity of work it can obtain.

    Chinese factories employ 120 million workers. Chinese factories have boosted productivity and are maintaining position in low level areas like textiles but also moving into higher value industries like big bulldozers (e.g. long ago Caterpillar lost its top place in construction exports to Russia to Chinese competition)

    The smart fraction in India could one day demolish Booz Allen from Bangalore but its service sector employs only 1/40th of China’s manufacturing sector.

    Gives you a sense of the magnitude of under performance in India. Can such a small smart fraction pull it off?

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  • @reiner Tor
    Cast rule is slowly being relaxed. I don't think it's a very good thing, though, since India (similarly to Western Europe etc.) has lost selection in favor of higher intelligence, which means Indians (just like everybody else, with the possible exception of Africa) are getting dumber and dumber. (It's possible that in Africa selection for intelligence hasn't stopped because of the still forceful Malthusian effects there, so Africans are probably not getting much dumber, although probably with the advent of Western medicine, vaccinations etc. there's probably much less selection in favor of intelligence than previously, too. It would be interesting if Africa would be the only continent left where there's still some selection in favor of intelligence, and slowly the dumbest continent would become the smartest.)

    Reiner.

    I think India is interesting because with 1.5 billion people and a very narrow top portion with high iq, it wouldn’t take much or very long for the top portion to be a mixed into the low iq masses.

    The average iq would barely move with so many people and I don’t think India would ever recover.

    I don’t think that will happen, but at the margins India could quickly see itself erode.

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  • @Carlos
    I think the problem with India is that, unlike the Chinese who have a very high floor when it comes to IQ, Indians have a very low floor. So even though the very top portion of India can be very bright, the bottom portion can weigh down the entire country.

    I see a future where India can either relax caste rule, and see a homogenizing of iq. Which would mean a slightly higher iq for the masses, but not too much of an uptick because of the huge numbers of lower IQ Indians. Or I see not much changing in India, with an elite that is very capable but overall not being able to function much on the world stage.

    Cast rule is slowly being relaxed. I don’t think it’s a very good thing, though, since India (similarly to Western Europe etc.) has lost selection in favor of higher intelligence, which means Indians (just like everybody else, with the possible exception of Africa) are getting dumber and dumber. (It’s possible that in Africa selection for intelligence hasn’t stopped because of the still forceful Malthusian effects there, so Africans are probably not getting much dumber, although probably with the advent of Western medicine, vaccinations etc. there’s probably much less selection in favor of intelligence than previously, too. It would be interesting if Africa would be the only continent left where there’s still some selection in favor of intelligence, and slowly the dumbest continent would become the smartest.)

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    • Replies: @Carlos
    Reiner.

    I think India is interesting because with 1.5 billion people and a very narrow top portion with high iq, it wouldn't take much or very long for the top portion to be a mixed into the low iq masses.

    The average iq would barely move with so many people and I don't think India would ever recover.

    I don't think that will happen, but at the margins India could quickly see itself erode.
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  • @Numinous
    A lot of Dunning-kruger effect in this kind of things due to low IQ of average indian and western mainstream media. Indian like to over-estimate/bragging, which was taken for granted by similar minded Westerners.

    Wrong explanation. The "average Indian" has zero access to western media and zero contact or influence with westerners ("similar minded" or otherwise.) The people in India who create all the hype have pretty high IQs (by world standards, not Indian); they are savvy people who are good at advertising, and they know and expect exactly the effect you see. They are not bragging out of ignorance; they are creating a narrative that is in their interest.

    I do not know your opinion is based on speculation or observation.

    My personal anecdote (or observation) with south Asian colleagues (mostly likely representing the smart outliers of south Asians) are very critical of India (or you will call it self-hate). Certainly these south Asians are visual/spatial smart types. Not verbal types like Zakaria. But average folk I encountered in India are very confident, self-assured, extremely optimistic.

    This should be a subject worth of further research.

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  • I think the problem with India is that, unlike the Chinese who have a very high floor when it comes to IQ, Indians have a very low floor. So even though the very top portion of India can be very bright, the bottom portion can weigh down the entire country.

    I see a future where India can either relax caste rule, and see a homogenizing of iq. Which would mean a slightly higher iq for the masses, but not too much of an uptick because of the huge numbers of lower IQ Indians. Or I see not much changing in India, with an elite that is very capable but overall not being able to function much on the world stage.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Cast rule is slowly being relaxed. I don't think it's a very good thing, though, since India (similarly to Western Europe etc.) has lost selection in favor of higher intelligence, which means Indians (just like everybody else, with the possible exception of Africa) are getting dumber and dumber. (It's possible that in Africa selection for intelligence hasn't stopped because of the still forceful Malthusian effects there, so Africans are probably not getting much dumber, although probably with the advent of Western medicine, vaccinations etc. there's probably much less selection in favor of intelligence than previously, too. It would be interesting if Africa would be the only continent left where there's still some selection in favor of intelligence, and slowly the dumbest continent would become the smartest.)
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  • @AG
    A lot of Dunning-kruger effect in this kind of things due to low IQ of average indian and western mainstream media. Indian like to over-estimate/bragging, which was taken for granted by similar minded Westerners. People with similar mind-set really appreciate each other.

    A lot of Dunning-kruger effect in this kind of things due to low IQ of average indian and western mainstream media. Indian like to over-estimate/bragging, which was taken for granted by similar minded Westerners.

    Wrong explanation. The “average Indian” has zero access to western media and zero contact or influence with westerners (“similar minded” or otherwise.) The people in India who create all the hype have pretty high IQs (by world standards, not Indian); they are savvy people who are good at advertising, and they know and expect exactly the effect you see. They are not bragging out of ignorance; they are creating a narrative that is in their interest.

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    • Replies: @AG
    I do not know your opinion is based on speculation or observation.

    My personal anecdote (or observation) with south Asian colleagues (mostly likely representing the smart outliers of south Asians) are very critical of India (or you will call it self-hate). Certainly these south Asians are visual/spatial smart types. Not verbal types like Zakaria. But average folk I encountered in India are very confident, self-assured, extremely optimistic.

    This should be a subject worth of further research.
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  • @Nigel
    I think that many Westerners have the unfortunate tendency to overstate India's potential.

    We mustn't forget that the average IQ of India is only 82 and oftentimes the standard of living in India is barely different than that among blacks in Sub-Sahara Africa.

    I have lived both in India and Africa (with my parents), and I can safely say that the quality of life in India is only barely better than black Sub-Sahara Africa. I don't think that many Westerners truly realize how corrupt, dysfunctional and dirty India is. I mean, at our local river we'd actually see dead bodies and feces floating by on a regular basis.

    The real potential lies with China, not India.

    A lot of Dunning-kruger effect in this kind of things due to low IQ of average indian and western mainstream media. Indian like to over-estimate/bragging, which was taken for granted by similar minded Westerners. People with similar mind-set really appreciate each other.

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    • Replies: @Numinous
    A lot of Dunning-kruger effect in this kind of things due to low IQ of average indian and western mainstream media. Indian like to over-estimate/bragging, which was taken for granted by similar minded Westerners.

    Wrong explanation. The "average Indian" has zero access to western media and zero contact or influence with westerners ("similar minded" or otherwise.) The people in India who create all the hype have pretty high IQs (by world standards, not Indian); they are savvy people who are good at advertising, and they know and expect exactly the effect you see. They are not bragging out of ignorance; they are creating a narrative that is in their interest.
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  • @Nigel
    I think that many Westerners have the unfortunate tendency to overstate India's potential.

    We mustn't forget that the average IQ of India is only 82 and oftentimes the standard of living in India is barely different than that among blacks in Sub-Sahara Africa.

    I have lived both in India and Africa (with my parents), and I can safely say that the quality of life in India is only barely better than black Sub-Sahara Africa. I don't think that many Westerners truly realize how corrupt, dysfunctional and dirty India is. I mean, at our local river we'd actually see dead bodies and feces floating by on a regular basis.

    The real potential lies with China, not India.

    We mustn’t forget that the average IQ of India is only 82

    It is convenient to forget facts that don’t fit the narrative. Thus “race realists” conveniently ignore the fact that the IQ data they swear by shows that african-american IQ equals or exceeds that of indians, arabs and persians:

    IQ of african-americans living outside the South: >90
    Average IQ of all african-americans: 85
    Syrian IQ: 79
    Saudi IQ: 80
    Lebanese IQ: 82
    Indian IQ: 82
    Iranian IQ: 84
    Serbian IQ: 89

    Note that south asia and MENA is home to some 2 billion people or the great majority of what is lumped together as the caucasoid race.

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  • So based on your reading and the fact that Indians in all non islamic countries from Trinidad to Singapore have a higher per capita income than the native population.(Indicating the smart fraction is atleast 15-25% of the population) what is your assessment of Indian per capita income by 2025 ?

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  • India is worse off than subsaharan Africa not only in extreme malnutrition/hunger, sanitation and hygiene, inbreeding, living conditions, living space etc but also in per capita income:

    http://data.worldbank.org/region/SSA

    http://data.worldbank.org/country/india

    It makes more sense to compare India (or south asia in general) to Africa than to China.

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  • Nice chart! One picture worths thousands words. Visual spacial display always outperform verbal arguments, at least for visual spacial people. Pure verbal arguments are for pseudoscience, religions or ideologies. The pure verbal arguments like this post has no place in science.

    Some time you wonder whether verbal people’s intelligence has any value except manipulating stupid other people. Good verbal skill definitely make good saleman or scam artist (depending on whether you can figure out the truth or not).

    Personal anectdote: I have visited India as tourist. There is definitely a small fraction in that society based on the sophisticated designs of ancient castles in Rajsthan. My speculation for India will be always big gap in society with low mean and extreme high outliers.

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  • India will always be next year’s story. Plenty of smart people, but absolutely no social cohesion beyond family networks.

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  • In near-term IT/CompSci, the ICPC results are always a good proxy predictor, IMHO:

    http://icpc.baylor.edu/worldfinals/results

    Adjusting for population, and my experience, India doesn’t fare so well.

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  • I think that many Westerners have the unfortunate tendency to overstate India’s potential.

    We mustn’t forget that the average IQ of India is only 82 and oftentimes the standard of living in India is barely different than that among blacks in Sub-Sahara Africa.

    I have lived both in India and Africa (with my parents), and I can safely say that the quality of life in India is only barely better than black Sub-Sahara Africa. I don’t think that many Westerners truly realize how corrupt, dysfunctional and dirty India is. I mean, at our local river we’d actually see dead bodies and feces floating by on a regular basis.

    The real potential lies with China, not India.

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    • Replies: @Bliss

    We mustn’t forget that the average IQ of India is only 82
     
    It is convenient to forget facts that don't fit the narrative. Thus "race realists" conveniently ignore the fact that the IQ data they swear by shows that african-american IQ equals or exceeds that of indians, arabs and persians:

    IQ of african-americans living outside the South: >90
    Average IQ of all african-americans: 85
    Syrian IQ: 79
    Saudi IQ: 80
    Lebanese IQ: 82
    Indian IQ: 82
    Iranian IQ: 84
    Serbian IQ: 89

    Note that south asia and MENA is home to some 2 billion people or the great majority of what is lumped together as the caucasoid race.
    , @AG
    A lot of Dunning-kruger effect in this kind of things due to low IQ of average indian and western mainstream media. Indian like to over-estimate/bragging, which was taken for granted by similar minded Westerners. People with similar mind-set really appreciate each other.
    , @Tommy
    Nigel,

    I disagree, since the Indian community in the US is the very wealthiest group of all. Wealthier than Chinese, Jews, Anglo-Saxons, or anyone else.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

    While it is common for skeptics to insist that these are the 'cream of the crop' Indians, that is not entirely the case :

    1) Why would the Indians be any more 'cream of the crop' than Chinese or Filipino immigrants?
    2) The wealthiest Indians in the US are not the doctors or software engineers, but the owners of motel and gas station chains. These are very lucrative once you own 4-5 or more of them.
    3) Indian success seems to be continuing into their 2nd and 3rd generation. Hence, this success has gone on for too long, over too large of a community, to attribute to only the top 1% of Indians coming to America.
    4) Wealthy people in India don't come to America. They have it made. It is specifically people who are either a) educated but poor, or b) families who want to all join up into a chain of business ownership that come to the US. Hence, this also proves that the elite of India don't come here.

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  • In a new paper at the (conveniently open) journal The Winnower (h/t @whyvert), building on his earlier work, geneticist Davide Piffer has tried to calculate the genotypic IQs of various world populations, and how they compare to measured phenotypic IQ: Piffer, David - Estimating the genotypic intelligence of populations and assessing the impact of socioeconomic...
  • For a real in- depth study of this subject, I suggest you read the book:

    A troublesome Inheritance, by Nicholas Wade.

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  • Intelligence is a polygenic trait with probably hundreds of allelles affecting it. Science is only at the beginning of discovering the genetics of intelligence. (See Steve Hsu and the Beijing genomics institute’s study that is underway). This knowledge is extremely limited atm so I don’t think you can draw any serious conclusions about different populations’ genetic potential IQ.

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  • @matt
    Whatever the case, the book’s compendium of biographical sketches would certainly fill an enormous hole in Matt’s head about how intellectually accomplished Germans were before 1870.

    You seem to be under the impression that I've never heard the names Kepler, Leibniz, Gauss, Euler, Kant or Goethe. But isn't it just possible that the educated elite could have been different from the masses? Has that never occurred before?

    Since Thales and Euclid are over two thousand years distant from modern Greeks, and 19th-century German scientists are less than two centuries removed from modern Germans, I would hope that even you, Matt, might work your way through the small series of arguments for why your analogy doesn’t apply. Unless, of course, you think that classical Greek genes were petrified and passed down through the ages unaffected by over two thousand years of history, including population movements and different selection pressures?

    What's the dysgenic explanation for the contrast between Classical, Hellenistic, and even Roman Greece on the one hand, and Byzantine stagnation on the other?

    You seem to be under the impression that I’ve never heard the names Kepler, Leibniz, Gauss, Euler, Kant or Goethe. But isn’t it just possible that the educated elite could have been different from the masses? Has that never occurred before?

    For so many German names to be prominent in so many important intellectual and cultural fields over so many years tells us something about the general population those elites were drawn from.

    Even as early as the mid-eighteenth century, the German states had far more universities than most other European states. From Watson’s The German Genius:

    The eighteenth-century German universities differed from the British ones in a number of important ways. In the first place, early eighteenth-century Germany had far more universities—about fifty, as compared with, for example, just Oxford and Cambridge in England. Although many were small (Rostock, with some 500 students when it was founded in 1419, now had only seventy-four students, while Paderborn had forty-five), their number and local character meant that it was much easier in Germany for the gifted sons from poorer families to obtain higher education.

    What’s more, the German literacy rates were impressive and indicative of wide learning among the German people.

    Reading was also encouraged by another phenomenon of the eighteenth century—the lending library, which put a limit on the time a reader had access to any particular title. By 1800 there were nine lending libraries in Leipzig, ten in Bremen, and eighteen in Frankfurt am Main. Jürgen Habermas tells us that, by the end of the eighteenth century, there were 270 reading societies in Germany and some described a new illness, Lesesucht, or “reading addiction.” Literacy rates in Prussia and Saxony in the early nineteenth century were unmatched anywhere except New England.

    So, no, to answer your question, it’s not likely that the great names of the German educated elite (Kant, Goethe, Gauss, etc.) towered over the rest of the German population like a small set of isolated Kilimanjaro’s might tower over the African plains. What’s far more likely, given the evidence, is that those great names are simply the most accomplished men of what was becoming Europe’s most impressive society and culture, and that for every great German name you can think of, there were another two dozen or so German names of slightly lesser intellectual accomplishment who just missed out on being great because of chance or slightly less ability, and that those two dozen or so names sat on top of another large set of educated German men whose intellectual accomplishments were marginal if any.

    What’s the dysgenic explanation for the contrast between Classical, Hellenistic, and even Roman Greece on the one hand, and Byzantine stagnation on the other?

    I have no idea. But on principle, you should be wary of the kind of analogy by argument where you try to compare two dynamic populations, when one comparison (the Germans of today with the Germans of the early nineteenth century) is separated by only a few generations and another (classical Greeks with modern Greeks) is separated by more than a hundred generations.

    As to the point you seem to be working towards, you don’t need to go back to classical history to make it. There are far more recent examples which are much better documented. East Asia, for example.

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  • @Sparsh
    Continued...
    (Again quoted from YoungWeber on The Economist)
    So, you attribute the rise of the West to "genetic factors"? 500 years ago the average European was a toothless, superstitious, illiterate, innumerate, peasant serf; you would have been one of those opposed to the Great Reformers (like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and Knox) crying "serfs can't learn to read and reason from the bible themselves, they don't have the innate intellect, we should just teach them simple parables". It was the action of the Great Reformer Knox, in his creation of parish schools, who believed everyman had a God given obligation to develop his intellect that saw literacy rates in Scotland go from 2% to 65% and set the stage for the Scottish Enlightenment that would produce Hume, Mills (James), Smith, Richard and many others. Read any history of Scotland and you would know it was a savage place in 1700, but the model of civilization (except for the drunkenness, still a problem) by 1750. True, no matter what you do, half your population will be below average, but you can still increase the average. In the Soviet Union, Stalin's policy of mass industrialization involved the mass education of peasants; people for whom no in their families from time immemorial had received an education. Yet, Stalin turned peasants, themselves not their sons and daughters, into scientist, doctors, and engineers. Artem Mikoyan was a peasant, illiterate and innumerate until age 25; Stalin's policy forced him into education. By 1939, Mikoyan was designing jet aircraft and went on to design the "Mig" (named after him). Was Stalin brutal, absolutely; I guess he beat those "smart genes" out of being dormant?

    Once Nubian erected great building and Germans lived in mud huts; now, Germans erect great building and Nubian live in mud huts; such is the tide of history. A genetic argument does not explain why France was once a brilliant nation, but today South Koreans are 8.87 times more innovative (by patents granted); did bad gene sneak in? South Korea, alone, produces more than 1.7 times more patents than all of Europe; 6.4 times more than Australia, a nation that operated a "Whites only" immigration policy. Again, in 1961, Gabon (in Sub-Saharan Africa) was four times richer; explain the gene factor?

    Even recently, the PISA scores in math and science for Kazakhstan went from 405 and 400, respectively, in 2009 to 432 and 425, respectively, in 2012; again, was that a genetic awakening? Kazakhstan was once as poor a Zimbabwe, circa 1995, but today, thanks to the discipline and dictatorship of Nazabeyev, the country's GDP per capita (PPP) is on par with Greece and still growing. Of course, what do test scores matter; many European nations outscore Germany, but Germany is the only productive European nation(i.e the only country in the EU that significantly runs a net trade surplus with NON EUROZONE countries thus holding the value of the Euro).

    Once Nubian erected great building and Germans lived in mud huts

    Antiquity Nubian commoners lived in mud huts also.

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  • @Sparsh
    A quote from a commentator who goes by the name 'YoungWeber' on The Economist which I think broadly applies to this post:

    You sir, are broadly symptomatic with what is wrong with Western Civilization; a return to superstition and magical thinking. Five hundred years ago people were talking about fate determined in the star; now, it is fate determined by your genes. The West is dying, among other reasons, because of a loss in the belief in the power of human agency.

    As for the magic/ mythical "G" factor; what does it mean; does it trump all other factor; in what condition does it appear? Two case standout; prior to 1870 Germany was poor and backward, but in a forty-four year period between 1870-1914 German emerged as the most scientifically advanced nation in the world. Was it that "German genes" kicked in; was it that those great German scientist who were the sons of Lutheran minister all of a sudden began expressing dormant genetic traits? Perhaps, the fact the Prussia won the Franc-Prussian war, uniting all of Germany, and received five billion gold Francs in compensation, allowing more iron works and manufacturing facilities to built in four years than had be built in the previous seventy (and more 6,000 times more capital invested and one billion gold Francs in R&D) was the main factor.

    Again, in 1961, per capita GDP in South Korea was significantly lower than almost all of Sub-Saharan Africa, but by 1979 South Korea was the world's 10th largest exporter and today hold more patents "enforce" than the UK, France, or Germany; did the Korean genes become active? Perhaps, the success of South Korea had more to do with the discipline, organization, and drive of the dictatorship of Park Chung Hee.

    prior to 1870 Germany was poor and backward … Perhaps, the fact the Prussia won the Franc-Prussian war

    They won the Franco-Prussian war because they had a more developed railroad network, allowing them to concentrate armies faster.

    History of rail transport in Germany German Railway history began with the opening of the steam-hauled Bavarian Ludwig Railway between Nuremberg and Fürth on 7 December 1835.

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  • @Sparsh
    Continued...
    (Again quoted from YoungWeber on The Economist)
    So, you attribute the rise of the West to "genetic factors"? 500 years ago the average European was a toothless, superstitious, illiterate, innumerate, peasant serf; you would have been one of those opposed to the Great Reformers (like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and Knox) crying "serfs can't learn to read and reason from the bible themselves, they don't have the innate intellect, we should just teach them simple parables". It was the action of the Great Reformer Knox, in his creation of parish schools, who believed everyman had a God given obligation to develop his intellect that saw literacy rates in Scotland go from 2% to 65% and set the stage for the Scottish Enlightenment that would produce Hume, Mills (James), Smith, Richard and many others. Read any history of Scotland and you would know it was a savage place in 1700, but the model of civilization (except for the drunkenness, still a problem) by 1750. True, no matter what you do, half your population will be below average, but you can still increase the average. In the Soviet Union, Stalin's policy of mass industrialization involved the mass education of peasants; people for whom no in their families from time immemorial had received an education. Yet, Stalin turned peasants, themselves not their sons and daughters, into scientist, doctors, and engineers. Artem Mikoyan was a peasant, illiterate and innumerate until age 25; Stalin's policy forced him into education. By 1939, Mikoyan was designing jet aircraft and went on to design the "Mig" (named after him). Was Stalin brutal, absolutely; I guess he beat those "smart genes" out of being dormant?

    Once Nubian erected great building and Germans lived in mud huts; now, Germans erect great building and Nubian live in mud huts; such is the tide of history. A genetic argument does not explain why France was once a brilliant nation, but today South Koreans are 8.87 times more innovative (by patents granted); did bad gene sneak in? South Korea, alone, produces more than 1.7 times more patents than all of Europe; 6.4 times more than Australia, a nation that operated a "Whites only" immigration policy. Again, in 1961, Gabon (in Sub-Saharan Africa) was four times richer; explain the gene factor?

    Even recently, the PISA scores in math and science for Kazakhstan went from 405 and 400, respectively, in 2009 to 432 and 425, respectively, in 2012; again, was that a genetic awakening? Kazakhstan was once as poor a Zimbabwe, circa 1995, but today, thanks to the discipline and dictatorship of Nazabeyev, the country's GDP per capita (PPP) is on par with Greece and still growing. Of course, what do test scores matter; many European nations outscore Germany, but Germany is the only productive European nation(i.e the only country in the EU that significantly runs a net trade surplus with NON EUROZONE countries thus holding the value of the Euro).

    500 years ago the average European was a toothless, superstitious, illiterate, innumerate, peasant serf

    2015 – 500 = 1515

    1515: Manchester Grammar Schoolthe largest independent day school for boys in the United Kingdom is founded.

    The original deed promoted “godliness and good learning” and established that any boy showing sufficient academic ability, regardless of background, might attend, free of charge. The school was situated between Manchester Cathedral, then a collegiate church, and the church’s domestic quarters

    1521: Spanish Catholic illiterate peasant blacksmiths manufacture technologically advanced steel weapons and cannons that allow 500 Spaniards to conquer Aztec Empire.

    1522: Portugese Catholic illiterate peasant shipbuilders construct ships capable of circumnavigating the globe.

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  • @Sparsh
    Continued...
    (Again quoted from YoungWeber on The Economist)
    So, you attribute the rise of the West to "genetic factors"? 500 years ago the average European was a toothless, superstitious, illiterate, innumerate, peasant serf; you would have been one of those opposed to the Great Reformers (like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and Knox) crying "serfs can't learn to read and reason from the bible themselves, they don't have the innate intellect, we should just teach them simple parables". It was the action of the Great Reformer Knox, in his creation of parish schools, who believed everyman had a God given obligation to develop his intellect that saw literacy rates in Scotland go from 2% to 65% and set the stage for the Scottish Enlightenment that would produce Hume, Mills (James), Smith, Richard and many others. Read any history of Scotland and you would know it was a savage place in 1700, but the model of civilization (except for the drunkenness, still a problem) by 1750. True, no matter what you do, half your population will be below average, but you can still increase the average. In the Soviet Union, Stalin's policy of mass industrialization involved the mass education of peasants; people for whom no in their families from time immemorial had received an education. Yet, Stalin turned peasants, themselves not their sons and daughters, into scientist, doctors, and engineers. Artem Mikoyan was a peasant, illiterate and innumerate until age 25; Stalin's policy forced him into education. By 1939, Mikoyan was designing jet aircraft and went on to design the "Mig" (named after him). Was Stalin brutal, absolutely; I guess he beat those "smart genes" out of being dormant?

    Once Nubian erected great building and Germans lived in mud huts; now, Germans erect great building and Nubian live in mud huts; such is the tide of history. A genetic argument does not explain why France was once a brilliant nation, but today South Koreans are 8.87 times more innovative (by patents granted); did bad gene sneak in? South Korea, alone, produces more than 1.7 times more patents than all of Europe; 6.4 times more than Australia, a nation that operated a "Whites only" immigration policy. Again, in 1961, Gabon (in Sub-Saharan Africa) was four times richer; explain the gene factor?

    Even recently, the PISA scores in math and science for Kazakhstan went from 405 and 400, respectively, in 2009 to 432 and 425, respectively, in 2012; again, was that a genetic awakening? Kazakhstan was once as poor a Zimbabwe, circa 1995, but today, thanks to the discipline and dictatorship of Nazabeyev, the country's GDP per capita (PPP) is on par with Greece and still growing. Of course, what do test scores matter; many European nations outscore Germany, but Germany is the only productive European nation(i.e the only country in the EU that significantly runs a net trade surplus with NON EUROZONE countries thus holding the value of the Euro).

    500 years ago the average European was a toothless, superstitious, illiterate, innumerate, peasant serf

    BTW, Europeans teeth rotted because of newly introduce sugarcane plantations in Carribean. Rich eat more expensive sugar and teeth rot more than poor. This is made possible by having advanced ship-building technology capable of open ocean travel.

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  • Like left wing politics, there are two levels of right wing political correctness.

    Level 1: Down right stupidity in their belief of right wing ideology is the reason. To them, all those right wing political correct stuffs are true.

    Level 2: Master mind and political leader in right wing ideology who know the truth but in denial of truth in order to manipulate his followers is the reason. Just like a lot of left wing leaders, they are willing to lie about their politically correct stuff in order to achieve popularity. These politicians never care about telling the truth. All they care is popularity or voting ballots. They use stupid mass as tool for their personal gain.

    The real scientists are weak ideology believers since they have hard time rejecting truth because they can figure out truth on their own.

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  • To people seeking truth

    This post is about finding truth followed by a lot of great comments. But you all should be aware of political correctness in some of these comments. Most people are very familiar with typical political correctness for the liberal ideology. There is also political correctness for conservative or right wing ideology.

    Despite of different political orientation, right-wingers methods and pattern are quite similar to the left wingers. First clue is their enthusiasm and tendency for right wing politics. Second is trying hard to discredit the fact or data contradicting to their right wing belief. The way trying to talking away fact or data is bordering to the point of ridiculous to scientific mind people (or mind of scientist). If the data does not fit their idea, the data must be false or cheating. If the data is not in their favor, they will give it all kinds of excuses like left wingers did. To people who embrace the same ideology, all excuses feel like `fact’ . If a person never admit a mistake, he most likely a stupid one. Always treat such individual’s claim or words with grain of salt. To idiots, admitting mistake is like weakness. Stupid ones never be able to figure out truth on their own. They only judge thing based on the limbic system (guts feeling) or use their ideology/religion as guidance.

    To scientific minded people, you know consistency is best way to figure out truth. Anatoly way is typical example who looks for consistency out of chaotic information. Unz himself never hesitates to admit mistake he made. Unfortunately, smart people often mistake most people possessing similar ability due to Dunning Kruger effect. Truth is like mathematical answer which is always same no matter how you solve it – consistency. Truth is stubborn which can not be explained away.

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  • matt says:
    @Pincher Martin
    Thanks for the recommendation. Another more general work on nineteenth-century German culture is Peter Watson's The German Genius: Europe's Third Renaissance, the Second Scientific Revolution and the Twentieth Century.

    Watson makes the claim that Germany's scientific and cultural development from the late eighteenth through the early twentieth centuries was as significant for the West as the Italian Renaissance was four centuries earlier. I think that judgment is overstated. I can see ranking Germany first among equals in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, but I don't see the Germans as being that unparalleled in their accomplishments that they towered over that age in the same way the northern Italians loomed large over the Renaissance.

    Whatever the case, the book's compendium of biographical sketches would certainly fill an enormous hole in Matt's head about how intellectually accomplished Germans were before 1870.

    And it wasn't just math and physics, as impressive as German feats were in those critical scientific areas. Think of music, history, art, classical studies, philology, philosophy. They would all look very different without German contributions before 1870.

    Whatever the case, the book’s compendium of biographical sketches would certainly fill an enormous hole in Matt’s head about how intellectually accomplished Germans were before 1870.

    You seem to be under the impression that I’ve never heard the names Kepler, Leibniz, Gauss, Euler, Kant or Goethe. But isn’t it just possible that the educated elite could have been different from the masses? Has that never occurred before?

    Since Thales and Euclid are over two thousand years distant from modern Greeks, and 19th-century German scientists are less than two centuries removed from modern Germans, I would hope that even you, Matt, might work your way through the small series of arguments for why your analogy doesn’t apply. Unless, of course, you think that classical Greek genes were petrified and passed down through the ages unaffected by over two thousand years of history, including population movements and different selection pressures?

    What’s the dysgenic explanation for the contrast between Classical, Hellenistic, and even Roman Greece on the one hand, and Byzantine stagnation on the other?

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    • Replies: @Pincher Martin

    You seem to be under the impression that I’ve never heard the names Kepler, Leibniz, Gauss, Euler, Kant or Goethe. But isn’t it just possible that the educated elite could have been different from the masses? Has that never occurred before?
     
    For so many German names to be prominent in so many important intellectual and cultural fields over so many years tells us something about the general population those elites were drawn from.

    Even as early as the mid-eighteenth century, the German states had far more universities than most other European states. From Watson's The German Genius:


    The eighteenth-century German universities differed from the British ones in a number of important ways. In the first place, early eighteenth-century Germany had far more universities—about fifty, as compared with, for example, just Oxford and Cambridge in England. Although many were small (Rostock, with some 500 students when it was founded in 1419, now had only seventy-four students, while Paderborn had forty-five), their number and local character meant that it was much easier in Germany for the gifted sons from poorer families to obtain higher education.
     
    What's more, the German literacy rates were impressive and indicative of wide learning among the German people.

    Reading was also encouraged by another phenomenon of the eighteenth century—the lending library, which put a limit on the time a reader had access to any particular title. By 1800 there were nine lending libraries in Leipzig, ten in Bremen, and eighteen in Frankfurt am Main. Jürgen Habermas tells us that, by the end of the eighteenth century, there were 270 reading societies in Germany and some described a new illness, Lesesucht, or “reading addiction.” Literacy rates in Prussia and Saxony in the early nineteenth century were unmatched anywhere except New England.
     
    So, no, to answer your question, it's not likely that the great names of the German educated elite (Kant, Goethe, Gauss, etc.) towered over the rest of the German population like a small set of isolated Kilimanjaro's might tower over the African plains. What's far more likely, given the evidence, is that those great names are simply the most accomplished men of what was becoming Europe's most impressive society and culture, and that for every great German name you can think of, there were another two dozen or so German names of slightly lesser intellectual accomplishment who just missed out on being great because of chance or slightly less ability, and that those two dozen or so names sat on top of another large set of educated German men whose intellectual accomplishments were marginal if any.

    What’s the dysgenic explanation for the contrast between Classical, Hellenistic, and even Roman Greece on the one hand, and Byzantine stagnation on the other?
     
    I have no idea. But on principle, you should be wary of the kind of analogy by argument where you try to compare two dynamic populations, when one comparison (the Germans of today with the Germans of the early nineteenth century) is separated by only a few generations and another (classical Greeks with modern Greeks) is separated by more than a hundred generations.

    As to the point you seem to be working towards, you don't need to go back to classical history to make it. There are far more recent examples which are much better documented. East Asia, for example.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @matt
    Are you just going to ignore what I said about German’s universities and scientific publications? Those things became models for the rest of the world.

    Yes, the Academy and the Lyceum were great too.

    Yes, the Academy and the Lyceum were great too.

    Which followed this earlier comment about classical Greece by Matt.

    As for Germany’s many impressive scientists and intellectuals, that’s a bit like trying to predict Greece’s future economic success from the existence of Thales, Euclid, Plato and Aristotle. [Pincher Martin's emphasis]

    Since Thales and Euclid are over two thousand years distant from modern Greeks, and 19th-century German scientists are less than two centuries removed from modern Germans, I would hope that even you, Matt, might work your way through the small series of arguments for why your analogy doesn’t apply. Unless, of course, you think that classical Greek genes were petrified and passed down through the ages unaffected by over two thousand years of history, including population movements and different selection pressures?

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  • @Dismayed
    @ Pincher Martin January 30, 2015 at 6:21 pm GMT
    ... of relevance to German contributions ...
    Intellectual Mastery of Nature. Theoretical Physics from Ohm to Einstein,
    Volume 1: The Torch of Mathematics, 1800 to 1870
    Volume 1: The Now Mighty Theoretical Physics, 1870 to 1925

    While Germans certainly weren't the only people contributing, German researchers at German universities were key pioneers. The world, especially the industrial/scientific West, would look very different without their sustained contributions.

    http://www.amazon.com/Intellectual-Mastery-Nature-Theoretical-Einstein/dp/0226415821/ref=pd_sim_b_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1EGS52X2EDCGZ0ATGF8M

    Thanks for the recommendation. Another more general work on nineteenth-century German culture is Peter Watson’s The German Genius: Europe’s Third Renaissance, the Second Scientific Revolution and the Twentieth Century.

    Watson makes the claim that Germany’s scientific and cultural development from the late eighteenth through the early twentieth centuries was as significant for the West as the Italian Renaissance was four centuries earlier. I think that judgment is overstated. I can see ranking Germany first among equals in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, but I don’t see the Germans as being that unparalleled in their accomplishments that they towered over that age in the same way the northern Italians loomed large over the Renaissance.

    Whatever the case, the book’s compendium of biographical sketches would certainly fill an enormous hole in Matt’s head about how intellectually accomplished Germans were before 1870.

    And it wasn’t just math and physics, as impressive as German feats were in those critical scientific areas. Think of music, history, art, classical studies, philology, philosophy. They would all look very different without German contributions before 1870.

    Read More
    • Replies: @matt
    Whatever the case, the book’s compendium of biographical sketches would certainly fill an enormous hole in Matt’s head about how intellectually accomplished Germans were before 1870.

    You seem to be under the impression that I've never heard the names Kepler, Leibniz, Gauss, Euler, Kant or Goethe. But isn't it just possible that the educated elite could have been different from the masses? Has that never occurred before?

    Since Thales and Euclid are over two thousand years distant from modern Greeks, and 19th-century German scientists are less than two centuries removed from modern Germans, I would hope that even you, Matt, might work your way through the small series of arguments for why your analogy doesn’t apply. Unless, of course, you think that classical Greek genes were petrified and passed down through the ages unaffected by over two thousand years of history, including population movements and different selection pressures?

    What's the dysgenic explanation for the contrast between Classical, Hellenistic, and even Roman Greece on the one hand, and Byzantine stagnation on the other?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Pincher Martin
    Yes, the Russo-Japanese War surprised many people. It was the first time that a non-white country decisively defeated a European power in a modern war. But Japan's military prowess had earlier been on display in the Sino-Japanese War a decade before its war with Russia. Many Western naval officers hired by the Japanese government to help build Japan's navy had also been impressed by Japan's modernization program. So even before 1905, informed observers were aware of Japan's growing power and made quite reasonable inferences about Japanese ability based on it.

    Why were so many people surprised by the result of the Russo-Japanese War? Perhaps because even so many Japanese leaders themselves didn't fully anticipate their victory or how dominant it would be. Perhaps because the Russian empire was considered a formidable opponent for anyone, let alone a much smaller country which had only embarked on military modernization two generations before. Perhaps because the Russian empire had over three times as many men as the Japanese empire.

    As for Germany’s many impressive scientists and intellectuals, that’s a bit like trying to predict Greece’s future economic success from the existence of Thales, Euclid, Plato and Aristotle.
     
    Are you just going to ignore what I said about German's universities and scientific publications? Those things became models for the rest of the world. American intellectuals in the nineteenth century flocked to Germany to learn those educational models and often to become educated in them.

    Are you just going to ignore what I said about German’s universities and scientific publications? Those things became models for the rest of the world.

    Yes, the Academy and the Lyceum were great too.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Yes, the Academy and the Lyceum were great too.
     
    Which followed this earlier comment about classical Greece by Matt.

    As for Germany’s many impressive scientists and intellectuals, that’s a bit like trying to predict Greece’s future economic success from the existence of Thales, Euclid, Plato and Aristotle. [Pincher Martin's emphasis]
     
    Since Thales and Euclid are over two thousand years distant from modern Greeks, and 19th-century German scientists are less than two centuries removed from modern Germans, I would hope that even you, Matt, might work your way through the small series of arguments for why your analogy doesn't apply. Unless, of course, you think that classical Greek genes were petrified and passed down through the ages unaffected by over two thousand years of history, including population movements and different selection pressures?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Pincher Martin
    Yes, the Russo-Japanese War surprised many people. It was the first time that a non-white country decisively defeated a European power in a modern war. But Japan's military prowess had earlier been on display in the Sino-Japanese War a decade before its war with Russia. Many Western naval officers hired by the Japanese government to help build Japan's navy had also been impressed by Japan's modernization program. So even before 1905, informed observers were aware of Japan's growing power and made quite reasonable inferences about Japanese ability based on it.

    Why were so many people surprised by the result of the Russo-Japanese War? Perhaps because even so many Japanese leaders themselves didn't fully anticipate their victory or how dominant it would be. Perhaps because the Russian empire was considered a formidable opponent for anyone, let alone a much smaller country which had only embarked on military modernization two generations before. Perhaps because the Russian empire had over three times as many men as the Japanese empire.

    As for Germany’s many impressive scientists and intellectuals, that’s a bit like trying to predict Greece’s future economic success from the existence of Thales, Euclid, Plato and Aristotle.
     
    Are you just going to ignore what I said about German's universities and scientific publications? Those things became models for the rest of the world. American intellectuals in the nineteenth century flocked to Germany to learn those educational models and often to become educated in them.

    @ Pincher Martin January 30, 2015 at 6:21 pm GMT
    … of relevance to German contributions …
    Intellectual Mastery of Nature. Theoretical Physics from Ohm to Einstein,
    Volume 1: The Torch of Mathematics, 1800 to 1870
    Volume 1: The Now Mighty Theoretical Physics, 1870 to 1925

    While Germans certainly weren’t the only people contributing, German researchers at German universities were key pioneers. The world, especially the industrial/scientific West, would look very different without their sustained contributions.

    http://www.amazon.com/Intellectual-Mastery-Nature-Theoretical-Einstein/dp/0226415821/ref=pd_sim_b_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1EGS52X2EDCGZ0ATGF8M

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    Thanks for the recommendation. Another more general work on nineteenth-century German culture is Peter Watson's The German Genius: Europe's Third Renaissance, the Second Scientific Revolution and the Twentieth Century.

    Watson makes the claim that Germany's scientific and cultural development from the late eighteenth through the early twentieth centuries was as significant for the West as the Italian Renaissance was four centuries earlier. I think that judgment is overstated. I can see ranking Germany first among equals in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, but I don't see the Germans as being that unparalleled in their accomplishments that they towered over that age in the same way the northern Italians loomed large over the Renaissance.

    Whatever the case, the book's compendium of biographical sketches would certainly fill an enormous hole in Matt's head about how intellectually accomplished Germans were before 1870.

    And it wasn't just math and physics, as impressive as German feats were in those critical scientific areas. Think of music, history, art, classical studies, philology, philosophy. They would all look very different without German contributions before 1870.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @matt
    Yes of course there were people who presciently predicted the rise of Japan, but do you really think it's a stretch to say that Europeans were generally surprised when it happened? Granted Webb was a little behind in 1912 given that many Europeans had already started taking notice after the Japanese beat Russia in 1905 (including, notably, Roosevelt). But then why was the Russo-Japanese War so surprising? Why wasn't everyone predicting Japanese success much earlier?

    As for Germany's many impressive scientists and intellectuals, that's a bit like trying to predict Greece's future economic success from the existence of Thales, Euclid, Plato and Aristotle.

    Yes, the Russo-Japanese War surprised many people. It was the first time that a non-white country decisively defeated a European power in a modern war. But Japan’s military prowess had earlier been on display in the Sino-Japanese War a decade before its war with Russia. Many Western naval officers hired by the Japanese government to help build Japan’s navy had also been impressed by Japan’s modernization program. So even before 1905, informed observers were aware of Japan’s growing power and made quite reasonable inferences about Japanese ability based on it.

    Why were so many people surprised by the result of the Russo-Japanese War? Perhaps because even so many Japanese leaders themselves didn’t fully anticipate their victory or how dominant it would be. Perhaps because the Russian empire was considered a formidable opponent for anyone, let alone a much smaller country which had only embarked on military modernization two generations before. Perhaps because the Russian empire had over three times as many men as the Japanese empire.

    As for Germany’s many impressive scientists and intellectuals, that’s a bit like trying to predict Greece’s future economic success from the existence of Thales, Euclid, Plato and Aristotle.

    Are you just going to ignore what I said about German’s universities and scientific publications? Those things became models for the rest of the world. American intellectuals in the nineteenth century flocked to Germany to learn those educational models and often to become educated in them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dismayed
    @ Pincher Martin January 30, 2015 at 6:21 pm GMT
    ... of relevance to German contributions ...
    Intellectual Mastery of Nature. Theoretical Physics from Ohm to Einstein,
    Volume 1: The Torch of Mathematics, 1800 to 1870
    Volume 1: The Now Mighty Theoretical Physics, 1870 to 1925

    While Germans certainly weren't the only people contributing, German researchers at German universities were key pioneers. The world, especially the industrial/scientific West, would look very different without their sustained contributions.

    http://www.amazon.com/Intellectual-Mastery-Nature-Theoretical-Einstein/dp/0226415821/ref=pd_sim_b_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1EGS52X2EDCGZ0ATGF8M
    , @matt
    Are you just going to ignore what I said about German’s universities and scientific publications? Those things became models for the rest of the world.

    Yes, the Academy and the Lyceum were great too.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • matt says:
    @Pincher Martin
    The quotes in that chapter from Ha-Joon Chang are from a fairly random collection of nitwits. American missionaries, travel writers, gallivanting socialists, etc. Who cares, for example, what Beatrice Webb thought of Japan in 1912 when there were much sharper observers of the international scene around that time who saw Japan was making up impressive ground.

    Look up Theodore Roosevelt's views on Japan for a more sophisticated insight into its people. Even H. L. Mencken said of the Japanese in the 1930s:

    "They are a people of very considerable talents, and will have to be reckoned with in the future history of the human race. They have long since got past the stage of sitting respectfully at the feet of the West.... In all the fields of human endeavor save theology, politics and swine justice they are showing the way to their ofay mentors. They have made important and durable contributions to knowledge in each and every one of the exact sciences, and they have taken such a lead in trade and industry that the only way left to beat them is to murder them."
     
    Chang doesn't make a good faith effort to actually discover what most informed people thought about Japan and Germany in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Do you really believe, for example, that German were considered slow-witted in the nineteenth century at a time when German universities were becoming models for the rest of the world?

    I also hope you realize that the number of nineteenth-century German-speaking intellectuals in various disciplines - math, biology, physics, chemistry, philosophy, sociology, music, etc. - is astonishing.

    Here is a selection from The Launching of Modern American Science, 1846-1876 by Robert Bruce.

    By mid-century Europe had already shown what had to be done to advance science as the times demanded. Some nations had learn faster than others, and the German states fastest of all....

    The great vehicle of German science, however, was the university.... The German university - there were a score of them by 1846 - was a community dedicated above all else to research. It met all the basic requirements of scientific advance. It lengthened education by four or five years, often to the student's middle or late twenties. Its decentralized structure, its freedoms of faculty to teach and students to elect what they chose, and its seminar method, all encouraged specialization....

    There were other organs of science in Germany. Having no national capital as a mart of scientific knowledge, the Germans had gone far ahead of other peoples in publishing scientific knowledge. As elsewhere, local scientific societies had been formed in the cities. And in 1822 a score of German scientists had organized the Gesellschaft Deutscher Naturforscher und Ärzte, a scientific association for all the German states, meeting annually in one city after another. Though only actively publishing scientists could belong, membership rose to nearly five hundred in a decade.

    Money, manpower and organization had thus by 1846 given German science a lead in quantity of research. In quality, too, it stood high. Germany in 1846 could muster a company of giants: Helmholtz, Ohm, and Mayer in physics; Gauss in mathematics; Liebig, Wöhler, Bunsen, and Mitscherlich in chemistry; Bessel and Encke in astronomy; Von Baer, Müller, Scleiden, and Schwann in biology; Humboldt in geography.
     
    So it's more than a little ridiculous to pretend that the Germans were fairly perceived as dull-witted before 1870 just because some British travel writer thought the people too contented.

    Yes of course there were people who presciently predicted the rise of Japan, but do you really think it’s a stretch to say that Europeans were generally surprised when it happened? Granted Webb was a little behind in 1912 given that many Europeans had already started taking notice after the Japanese beat Russia in 1905 (including, notably, Roosevelt). But then why was the Russo-Japanese War so surprising? Why wasn’t everyone predicting Japanese success much earlier?

    As for Germany’s many impressive scientists and intellectuals, that’s a bit like trying to predict Greece’s future economic success from the existence of Thales, Euclid, Plato and Aristotle.

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    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    Yes, the Russo-Japanese War surprised many people. It was the first time that a non-white country decisively defeated a European power in a modern war. But Japan's military prowess had earlier been on display in the Sino-Japanese War a decade before its war with Russia. Many Western naval officers hired by the Japanese government to help build Japan's navy had also been impressed by Japan's modernization program. So even before 1905, informed observers were aware of Japan's growing power and made quite reasonable inferences about Japanese ability based on it.

    Why were so many people surprised by the result of the Russo-Japanese War? Perhaps because even so many Japanese leaders themselves didn't fully anticipate their victory or how dominant it would be. Perhaps because the Russian empire was considered a formidable opponent for anyone, let alone a much smaller country which had only embarked on military modernization two generations before. Perhaps because the Russian empire had over three times as many men as the Japanese empire.

    As for Germany’s many impressive scientists and intellectuals, that’s a bit like trying to predict Greece’s future economic success from the existence of Thales, Euclid, Plato and Aristotle.
     
    Are you just going to ignore what I said about German's universities and scientific publications? Those things became models for the rest of the world. American intellectuals in the nineteenth century flocked to Germany to learn those educational models and often to become educated in them.
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  • What percentage of The people in vietnam moved to vietnam from China over the past thousand years? What percentage of the people in Vietnam evolved in Southeast Asia? I ask because i have always read that the Chinese evolved differently from southeast asians

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  • Also, Temperment is just as important as IQ. We know about Black Impulsiveness, time preference, violence tendencies, etc.

    Certain White groups are supposed to be more violent, like the Scots-Irish. There may be some truth to that given several hundred years of fighting the Brits, etc. Certainly there is room for genetic tendencies toward aggression in warrior societies to be favored thru sexual selection.

    Personally I welcome more aggression in White men. It will help save us from the ultra-violent hordes of third worlders, like Arabs, Mexicans, Blacks, and so on.

    Whites are the race that does extreme sports…we dominate all of them. How Come? Adventure, courage, balls, individualism…all White traits in spades. That is how we became Great, along with intelligence, conscientiousness, cooperation, and sociability that is sort of a Goldilocks kind of sociability, not too much, and not too little.

    Joe Webb

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  • Darwin, whom I have been reading around in, would reject any Great Convergence Over the Rainbow. Evolution keeps getting things more and more messy, if you like, that is, greater and greater complexity, heterogeneity, variety, dissimilarity, and so on. You can make up some more terms for Evolutionary dynamics.

    Absolutely there is no trend toward Equality of any sort. The only equal things in the universe are Identical Twins, and even they have a few things unequal as I understand it, like fingerprint differences, and vulnerabilities to illnesses. Of course, the latter differences may be due to insult and injury, at the physical and even psychological levels..

    Liberals are desperate and are grasping for straws. As an ex-letfish kind of guy who Changed! after some late mid-life reading and of course reflection on my somewhat childish ways, which are fine for children but not for adults, I have found that a solid understanding of genuine differences rooted in the genes (including gene expressions, etc) makes for more toleration, of course within limits.

    For those with children, it helps family life to know not only your own limitations, but those of your children as well…especially in the light of Regression to the Mean in intelligence. Bright parents do not necessarily get bright kids.

    One study I saw somewhere was of a group of professional White parents whose collective IQ was 120. Some had adopted Black kids and most had their own biological children as well. The Black adoptees did not improve their IQs from the Black average of 85, and their own biological children dropped a full 10 points on average from the White parents average of 120.

    So contrary to liberal Belief, being conservative in a genetic context, makes one more tolerant , not less. Otoh, Liberals bring out the whip and the rack to get people to Change! They also tend to want to kill conservatives, or racialists. The biggest bigots today are liberals.

    Race realists don’t want to harm anybody of another race, at least those that I know. We just want to be free to live with Whites, and if that means resegregation, so be it.

    “Convergence” is a word that has been used by the dopey New Agers. Strange to me that any professional person working in the field of human behavior and so on, would come up with that neologism for a title of a paper.

    Well, on second thought the ‘convergence’ here may just be the genotypic and the phenotypic. However, that whole position is problematic, especially when considering the sampling techniques.

    Still, it is a liberal feel good kind of lingo….not scientific. The Great Convergence, Peace on Earth, etc.
    Joe Webb

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  • folks ’round these parts like to stress the general accuracy of stereotypes (after all, they wouldn’t be stereotypes if they weren’t mostly accurate, right?).

    Oh? Whose stereotypes? I doubt if people around these parts are much interested in Japanese stereotypes of Americans, or British stereotypes of Americans, or German stereotypes of Americans.

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  • Turns out there was a widespread impression that Germans, in particular, were lazy, indolent, dull-witted, and highly emotional, and unpunctual (!).

    I don’t see the relevance of these (mostly British) impressions of other peoples “character” to a discussion of intelligence. The modern British stereotype of the Germans is that they are industrious, intelligent, and unemotional – which is as accurate as their old stereotype of Germans as lazy, stupid, and emotional. The only moral to be gleaned from this is that basing your views of the national character of a people on the “conventional wisdom” as held by British writers is neither useful nor accurate.

    The topic was intelligence, not character. And the Germans were, objectively speaking, as intelligent as any other group of people in Western Europe in the 17th and 18th centuries, as shown both by their standard of living and by the number of first rank thinkers they produced.

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  • @Steve Sailer
    The high score for Vietnam on the 2012 PISA test is related to only about 55% or so of the sample of 15 year olds showing up to take the test.

    The easiest way to boost your test scores is to not be able to find your dropouts. In contrast, Argentina has a very bad PISA score but in part it's because they try harder than comparable countries to round up kids who aren't very school-oriented. The missing fraction of the sample is about twice as big in higher scoring than in Argentina.

    By the way, the famous high scores of Finns seem legit: they got 96% compliance.

    Yes Steve…and Richard Lynn gives Vietnam a 94 IQ. It is also apparent where I live on the SF peninsula that Vietnamese mostly do nail and hair salons, at least that is what is visible. I go to a print shop owned and run by a Vietnamese guy… smart and not just agreeably Asian.

    As a non-expert on all this stuff, I do not understand how a “genotypic” IQ can be theorized especially when the phenotypic IQ is more or less known. I assume that this is a guess with regard to nutrition and health that can be improved.

    Look at American Black athletes, and for that matter, virtually all Blacks that one can see about.
    They look well nourished, etc. How could a genotypic IQ be imagined for them…at the commonly reported average IQ of (phenotypic) 85?

    Then there is the matter of brain size. I often see Black brains reported as about 100 cc s less than White brains. Is this American Blacks, or African Blacks? Then there is also the variously reported East Asian brains at about 25 cc s more than Whites.

    I have not seen a qualitative look at this brain size issue. It’s what’s up front that counts, not elsewhere in the brain, as far as IQ is concerned. The pre-frontal cortex would seem to be where size matters. If, for example, Blacks were found to be particularly disadvantaged, with regard to that alleged missing 100 cc s, in the pre-frontal cortex…then it would explain a lot. Ditto Whites with regard to East Asians, or Jews.

    With all this imaging technology we have now, are there not some answers here?

    Also, with regard to Argentina, Lynn gives it a 93. As I understand it, there are almost no Indians there, a large number having been killed off around 1900. And yes, it was southern Europeans who apparently mostly migrated there. Lynn, in his later edition of IQ and Global Inequality( 2012 I think, and right now not available) breaks down southern Europe IQ scores more fully. As I recall, from his words recently here at Unz Review, he gives southern Italy about a 95 IQ average. Then there would be southern Spain as well which I guess has more Arab blood that northern Spain, the home of the Goths after Rome fell.

    The scholarly restraint is admirable, but…I have not seen anybody comment on the Global North selecting for high IQ cuz of ice and cold de-selecting the least fit, while the Global South had no comparable climatic dynamic.

    Is it politically incorrect here to offer up such speculation? With no other hypothesis to explain the steady fall of IQ going south from the North where the smart East Asians and Whites have sojourned for tens of thousands of years, why is this not discussed. The only exception to this general truth are the Jews and Amerindians.

    The Jews have had their selective breeding program for centuries, and apparently the 3 waves of Amerindians that washed down from the north came out of Asia, and we don’t know where except that maybe it was Mongolian types or Siberian types, and we don’t know anything about it beyond that, at least that is what I understand.

    A possible explanation of why Amerindians started out relatively dim witted is not known, but generally, smarter people push out dummies. I think the Hmong of Vietnam, what we called the Montagnards during the Vietnam war (mountains in French) were and are probably stupider than the Vietnamese who held the better rice growing lands. In other words, the lowlands are held by smarter and better organized people for farming and the dummies get pushed into the hills. (That is now reversed in affluent White man lands, with the rich getting the views, etc.)

    So, it is therefore possible that the Amerindians were pushed out of Asia, etc.

    If we are talking Darwin, and Fitness, there are other areas of fitness that are very important, not just IQ. Most important, for Civilization, would be Individualism vs. Collectivism. The Chinese where I live in Silicon Valley, are getting a very bad reputation. Cheats and thieves is the standard criticism coming from Whites who work with them. I have no experience here except for on the street. Watch out for Asian women in SUVs. Then there is their absurd superstitiousness, fortune cookies , feng shwey, Luck factors when buying real-estate. That computational brain goes into magical thinking when numbers can’t tell the story.

    In short there seems to be no there there.

    What is so odd is that liberals refuse to believe that where one comes from might say something about your character. You bring in a Chinese from a totalitarian communist(or whatever it is) country and expect a White man or woman , interested in the Public Interest or the Common Weal? Or a Haitian, or an Arab, or a Kenyan? For a people without a History (that’s us these days, aided and abetted by
    commercialism , consumerism, and liberal and Jewish lies about Creeds and Change! and Propositions…all men are creat..) What folly…at best. And at worst, creating civil war, a failed state, which I suspect is what the Jewish Power wants for us as well what they purposed for the Arabs.

    Especially for the Jews to trumpet Liberalism and creeds and multi-racialism…with Israel as their ace-in-the-hole, and Spiritual Home….you believe this ? The Jews and the OT are a Darwinian discourse with Agency.
    Joe Webb

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  • Emerging information about covert activities in the late 1980′s with the Batwa pygmies of Central Africa indicated a lot of use for a limited time of camcorder video taping in order to make adaptive behavior assessments. An indicated aim was to select out of this population (IQ estimate around
    60) those who would intellectually be most able to be relocated to their own satisfaction. Project
    seems to have been interrupted–maybe by the emerging Rwandan civil war?

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  • @matt
    If anyone would like to know what prominent Europeans thought of Koreans and Germans, economist Ha-Joon Chang collected some interesting quotations for his book Bad Samaritans. You can find them here, on pp. 2-3 of this excerpt. Turns out there was a widespread impression that Germans, in particular, were lazy, indolent, dull-witted, and highly emotional, and unpunctual (!).

    Make of this what you will, but keep in mind that folks 'round these parts like to stress the general accuracy of stereotypes (after all, they wouldn't be stereotypes if they weren't mostly accurate, right?).

    The quotes in that chapter from Ha-Joon Chang are from a fairly random collection of nitwits. American missionaries, travel writers, gallivanting socialists, etc. Who cares, for example, what Beatrice Webb thought of Japan in 1912 when there were much sharper observers of the international scene around that time who saw Japan was making up impressive ground.

    Look up Theodore Roosevelt’s views on Japan for a more sophisticated insight into its people. Even H. L. Mencken said of the Japanese in the 1930s:

    “They are a people of very considerable talents, and will have to be reckoned with in the future history of the human race. They have long since got past the stage of sitting respectfully at the feet of the West…. In all the fields of human endeavor save theology, politics and swine justice they are showing the way to their ofay mentors. They have made important and durable contributions to knowledge in each and every one of the exact sciences, and they have taken such a lead in trade and industry that the only way left to beat them is to murder them.”

    Chang doesn’t make a good faith effort to actually discover what most informed people thought about Japan and Germany in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Do you really believe, for example, that German were considered slow-witted in the nineteenth century at a time when German universities were becoming models for the rest of the world?

    I also hope you realize that the number of nineteenth-century German-speaking intellectuals in various disciplines – math, biology, physics, chemistry, philosophy, sociology, music, etc. – is astonishing.

    Here is a selection from The Launching of Modern American Science, 1846-1876 by Robert Bruce.

    By mid-century Europe had already shown what had to be done to advance science as the times demanded. Some nations had learn faster than others, and the German states fastest of all….

    The great vehicle of German science, however, was the university…. The German university – there were a score of them by 1846 – was a community dedicated above all else to research. It met all the basic requirements of scientific advance. It lengthened education by four or five years, often to the student’s middle or late twenties. Its decentralized structure, its freedoms of faculty to teach and students to elect what they chose, and its seminar method, all encouraged specialization….

    There were other organs of science in Germany. Having no national capital as a mart of scientific knowledge, the Germans had gone far ahead of other peoples in publishing scientific knowledge. As elsewhere, local scientific societies had been formed in the cities. And in 1822 a score of German scientists had organized the Gesellschaft Deutscher Naturforscher und Ärzte, a scientific association for all the German states, meeting annually in one city after another. Though only actively publishing scientists could belong, membership rose to nearly five hundred in a decade.

    Money, manpower and organization had thus by 1846 given German science a lead in quantity of research. In quality, too, it stood high. Germany in 1846 could muster a company of giants: Helmholtz, Ohm, and Mayer in physics; Gauss in mathematics; Liebig, Wöhler, Bunsen, and Mitscherlich in chemistry; Bessel and Encke in astronomy; Von Baer, Müller, Scleiden, and Schwann in biology; Humboldt in geography.

    So it’s more than a little ridiculous to pretend that the Germans were fairly perceived as dull-witted before 1870 just because some British travel writer thought the people too contented.

    Read More
    • Replies: @matt
    Yes of course there were people who presciently predicted the rise of Japan, but do you really think it's a stretch to say that Europeans were generally surprised when it happened? Granted Webb was a little behind in 1912 given that many Europeans had already started taking notice after the Japanese beat Russia in 1905 (including, notably, Roosevelt). But then why was the Russo-Japanese War so surprising? Why wasn't everyone predicting Japanese success much earlier?

    As for Germany's many impressive scientists and intellectuals, that's a bit like trying to predict Greece's future economic success from the existence of Thales, Euclid, Plato and Aristotle.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    Mainland China did an IQ survey of 8-10 year olds back in 2005. The average came out to be 103.4. It is also broken out by region.

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/asia/126063d1393495408-iq-8-10-yo-children-chinese-2.png

    It seems provinces with less Han tends to have lower IQ with a few exception. This pattern favors genetic root of IQ. 兵团(veterans corps) are product of entire military units (from soldiers to officers) discharged into farming corps and stationed in unpolulated regions near borders. Chinese army are all volunteer soldiers with higher percentage of Han origin. Vet corps with IQ 119 is equal or above most western college students bordering graduate school. No wonder Chairman Mao said “PLA is revolutionary university (解放军是个革命大学校)”

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  • Mainland China did an IQ survey of 8-10 year olds back in 2005. The average came out to be 103.4. It is also broken out by region.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AG
    It seems provinces with less Han tends to have lower IQ with a few exception. This pattern favors genetic root of IQ. 兵团(veterans corps) are product of entire military units (from soldiers to officers) discharged into farming corps and stationed in unpolulated regions near borders. Chinese army are all volunteer soldiers with higher percentage of Han origin. Vet corps with IQ 119 is equal or above most western college students bordering graduate school. No wonder Chairman Mao said "PLA is revolutionary university (解放军是个革命大学校)"
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • matt says:
    @Winston Smith
    The fact that comments are subject to preemptive moderation indicates censorship. I suspect a white supremacist, male chauvinist agenda.

    Well, I don’t know about that. It seems more likely that it is merely a small, not-very-prestigious, open-access journal/blog that has existed for only a little over a year, with a lack of willingness to publicize their impact factor (here is the The Winnower‘s founder denouncing “high-impact factor journals” like Science), and which uses a, ahem, highly unorthodox system of “peer-review”.

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  • matt says:
    @Greenstalk
    prior to 1870 Germany was poor and backward, but in a forty-four year period between 1870-1914 German emerged as the most scientifically advanced nation in the world.

    To quote the song, YoungWeber don't know much about history. There was no "Germany" as such prior to 1871 but there were Germans, and they were an exceptionally intelligent and productive and scientifically advanced people.

    If anyone would like to know what prominent Europeans thought of Koreans and Germans, economist Ha-Joon Chang collected some interesting quotations for his book Bad Samaritans. You can find them here, on pp. 2-3 of this excerpt. Turns out there was a widespread impression that Germans, in particular, were lazy, indolent, dull-witted, and highly emotional, and unpunctual (!).

    Make of this what you will, but keep in mind that folks ’round these parts like to stress the general accuracy of stereotypes (after all, they wouldn’t be stereotypes if they weren’t mostly accurate, right?).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    The quotes in that chapter from Ha-Joon Chang are from a fairly random collection of nitwits. American missionaries, travel writers, gallivanting socialists, etc. Who cares, for example, what Beatrice Webb thought of Japan in 1912 when there were much sharper observers of the international scene around that time who saw Japan was making up impressive ground.

    Look up Theodore Roosevelt's views on Japan for a more sophisticated insight into its people. Even H. L. Mencken said of the Japanese in the 1930s:

    "They are a people of very considerable talents, and will have to be reckoned with in the future history of the human race. They have long since got past the stage of sitting respectfully at the feet of the West.... In all the fields of human endeavor save theology, politics and swine justice they are showing the way to their ofay mentors. They have made important and durable contributions to knowledge in each and every one of the exact sciences, and they have taken such a lead in trade and industry that the only way left to beat them is to murder them."
     
    Chang doesn't make a good faith effort to actually discover what most informed people thought about Japan and Germany in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Do you really believe, for example, that German were considered slow-witted in the nineteenth century at a time when German universities were becoming models for the rest of the world?

    I also hope you realize that the number of nineteenth-century German-speaking intellectuals in various disciplines - math, biology, physics, chemistry, philosophy, sociology, music, etc. - is astonishing.

    Here is a selection from The Launching of Modern American Science, 1846-1876 by Robert Bruce.

    By mid-century Europe had already shown what had to be done to advance science as the times demanded. Some nations had learn faster than others, and the German states fastest of all....

    The great vehicle of German science, however, was the university.... The German university - there were a score of them by 1846 - was a community dedicated above all else to research. It met all the basic requirements of scientific advance. It lengthened education by four or five years, often to the student's middle or late twenties. Its decentralized structure, its freedoms of faculty to teach and students to elect what they chose, and its seminar method, all encouraged specialization....

    There were other organs of science in Germany. Having no national capital as a mart of scientific knowledge, the Germans had gone far ahead of other peoples in publishing scientific knowledge. As elsewhere, local scientific societies had been formed in the cities. And in 1822 a score of German scientists had organized the Gesellschaft Deutscher Naturforscher und Ärzte, a scientific association for all the German states, meeting annually in one city after another. Though only actively publishing scientists could belong, membership rose to nearly five hundred in a decade.

    Money, manpower and organization had thus by 1846 given German science a lead in quantity of research. In quality, too, it stood high. Germany in 1846 could muster a company of giants: Helmholtz, Ohm, and Mayer in physics; Gauss in mathematics; Liebig, Wöhler, Bunsen, and Mitscherlich in chemistry; Bessel and Encke in astronomy; Von Baer, Müller, Scleiden, and Schwann in biology; Humboldt in geography.
     
    So it's more than a little ridiculous to pretend that the Germans were fairly perceived as dull-witted before 1870 just because some British travel writer thought the people too contented.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • prior to 1870 Germany was poor and backward, but in a forty-four year period between 1870-1914 German emerged as the most scientifically advanced nation in the world.

    To quote the song, YoungWeber don’t know much about history. There was no “Germany” as such prior to 1871 but there were Germans, and they were an exceptionally intelligent and productive and scientifically advanced people.

    Read More
    • Replies: @matt
    If anyone would like to know what prominent Europeans thought of Koreans and Germans, economist Ha-Joon Chang collected some interesting quotations for his book Bad Samaritans. You can find them here, on pp. 2-3 of this excerpt. Turns out there was a widespread impression that Germans, in particular, were lazy, indolent, dull-witted, and highly emotional, and unpunctual (!).

    Make of this what you will, but keep in mind that folks 'round these parts like to stress the general accuracy of stereotypes (after all, they wouldn't be stereotypes if they weren't mostly accurate, right?).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @matt
    I took a look at some of the other articles on The Winnower. I could be wrong, but it appears as though the "open post-publication peer review" process consists of just anybody making comments beneath the article. So, how is the The Winnower different from a blog? Indeed, it appears that the founder of the "journal" proudly declares it to be a blog.

    The fact that comments are subject to preemptive moderation indicates censorship. I suspect a white supremacist, male chauvinist agenda.

    Read More
    • Replies: @matt
    Well, I don't know about that. It seems more likely that it is merely a small, not-very-prestigious, open-access journal/blog that has existed for only a little over a year, with a lack of willingness to publicize their impact factor (here is the The Winnower's founder denouncing "high-impact factor journals" like Science), and which uses a, ahem, highly unorthodox system of "peer-review".
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • matt says:

    I took a look at some of the other articles on The Winnower. I could be wrong, but it appears as though the “open post-publication peer review” process consists of just anybody making comments beneath the article. So, how is the The Winnower different from a blog? Indeed, it appears that the founder of the “journal” proudly declares it to be a blog.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Winston Smith
    The fact that comments are subject to preemptive moderation indicates censorship. I suspect a white supremacist, male chauvinist agenda.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Speaking of genetics, it is interesting that this White girl has zero percent Sub Saharan African admixture according to 23AndMe, even though she has a broader nose and fuller lips than the average White person.

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  • @Emil O. W. Kirkegaard
    It is not. We, that is mostly Piffer, published on it before. One sees a similar pattern with the ADHD SNPs, which is expected because ADHD has been found to correlate genetically with IQ in studies.

    First publication on this idea I think was:

    Factor Analysis of Population Allele Frequencies as a Simple, Novel Method of Detecting Signals of Recent Polygenic Selection: The Example of Educational Attainment and IQ. D Piffer
    D Piffer
    Mankind Quarterly 54 (2), 168-200

    Others:
    Statistical associations between genetic polymorphisms modulating executive function and intelligence suggest recent selective pressure on cognitive abilities.
    D Piffer
    Mankind Quarterly 54 (1), 3-25

    Opposite selection pressures on stature and intelligence across human populations
    D Piffer
    Open Behavioral Genetics

    The genetic correlation between educational attainment, intracranial volume and IQ is due to recent polygenic selection on general cognitive ability
    D Piffer, E Kirkegaard
    Open Behavioral Genetics

    The ADHD one is still in preparation. The draft is here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Sb68X4TImRK5_QhUkUftokBpKrXyO8H5cT2Ou8H75xk/edit

    In popular books and articles about ADHD doctors often say that ADHD isn’t correlated with IQ, yet these same doctors also say that a high proportion of the prison population has ADHD. Surely if a high percentage of prisoners have it then there must be a correlation with IQ.

    My take on this is that they are writing books and articles for reasonably bright middle class people with mild to moderate problems with impulsiveness and inattention. However, these people don’t represent the average person with serious ADHD problems.

    Interestingly, one German study found inattentiveness without hyperactivity was more common in German school kids than American school kids. It’s possible that inattentiveness without hyperactivity is correlated with north European traits like introversion.

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  • Most of the comments relating to this pseudoscientific article seem to be based on Eugenics.

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  • anon • Disclaimer says:

    Lots of cool theory and math. However, a lifetime of living in Calif cities with large mexican populations, I am convinced that their mean IQ is nowhere near 95. What would raise their IQ? Nutrition, 1st world schools, govt enrichment programs? They have all that. Even their college grads top out at 105-110 compared to all the eggheads invading the state. Certainly above the AA IQ of 85 but nowhere near 95.

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  • @Sparsh
    Continued...
    (Again quoted from YoungWeber on The Economist)
    So, you attribute the rise of the West to "genetic factors"? 500 years ago the average European was a toothless, superstitious, illiterate, innumerate, peasant serf; you would have been one of those opposed to the Great Reformers (like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and Knox) crying "serfs can't learn to read and reason from the bible themselves, they don't have the innate intellect, we should just teach them simple parables". It was the action of the Great Reformer Knox, in his creation of parish schools, who believed everyman had a God given obligation to develop his intellect that saw literacy rates in Scotland go from 2% to 65% and set the stage for the Scottish Enlightenment that would produce Hume, Mills (James), Smith, Richard and many others. Read any history of Scotland and you would know it was a savage place in 1700, but the model of civilization (except for the drunkenness, still a problem) by 1750. True, no matter what you do, half your population will be below average, but you can still increase the average. In the Soviet Union, Stalin's policy of mass industrialization involved the mass education of peasants; people for whom no in their families from time immemorial had received an education. Yet, Stalin turned peasants, themselves not their sons and daughters, into scientist, doctors, and engineers. Artem Mikoyan was a peasant, illiterate and innumerate until age 25; Stalin's policy forced him into education. By 1939, Mikoyan was designing jet aircraft and went on to design the "Mig" (named after him). Was Stalin brutal, absolutely; I guess he beat those "smart genes" out of being dormant?

    Once Nubian erected great building and Germans lived in mud huts; now, Germans erect great building and Nubian live in mud huts; such is the tide of history. A genetic argument does not explain why France was once a brilliant nation, but today South Koreans are 8.87 times more innovative (by patents granted); did bad gene sneak in? South Korea, alone, produces more than 1.7 times more patents than all of Europe; 6.4 times more than Australia, a nation that operated a "Whites only" immigration policy. Again, in 1961, Gabon (in Sub-Saharan Africa) was four times richer; explain the gene factor?

    Even recently, the PISA scores in math and science for Kazakhstan went from 405 and 400, respectively, in 2009 to 432 and 425, respectively, in 2012; again, was that a genetic awakening? Kazakhstan was once as poor a Zimbabwe, circa 1995, but today, thanks to the discipline and dictatorship of Nazabeyev, the country's GDP per capita (PPP) is on par with Greece and still growing. Of course, what do test scores matter; many European nations outscore Germany, but Germany is the only productive European nation(i.e the only country in the EU that significantly runs a net trade surplus with NON EUROZONE countries thus holding the value of the Euro).

    500 years ago the average European was a toothless, superstitious, illiterate, innumerate, peasant serf

    You are surely aware that your “average European” had less than average descendants: it was the upper peasantry (the healthier, toothier, less superstitious, more hardworking, and 500 years ago already increasingly literate ones) who did the bulk of the reproduction business. Poor peasants were essentially unable to marry, or only married at a very late age, and most of their children – if they even had any – died at a very young age due to malnutrition or outright starvation. It’s interesting to note that the upper classes were largely immune to diseases such as the plague – either because their circumstances protected them (cleaner water supplies, no contact with rats), or because they had better nutrition and so stronger immune systems. Or both. Apparently the poorer you were, the higher the chances of a bug killing you, and the lower the chances of you having descendants at all.

    We are all descended from the upper classes (not only nobility but also richer peasantry) of the middle ages and the genetic contribution of the poor peasantry is minuscule, even the middle peasantry is smaller.

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  • The high score for Vietnam on the 2012 PISA test is related to only about 55% or so of the sample of 15 year olds showing up to take the test.

    The easiest way to boost your test scores is to not be able to find your dropouts. In contrast, Argentina has a very bad PISA score but in part it’s because they try harder than comparable countries to round up kids who aren’t very school-oriented. The missing fraction of the sample is about twice as big in higher scoring than in Argentina.

    By the way, the famous high scores of Finns seem legit: they got 96% compliance.

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    • Replies: @Joe Webb
    Yes Steve...and Richard Lynn gives Vietnam a 94 IQ. It is also apparent where I live on the SF peninsula that Vietnamese mostly do nail and hair salons, at least that is what is visible. I go to a print shop owned and run by a Vietnamese guy... smart and not just agreeably Asian.

    As a non-expert on all this stuff, I do not understand how a "genotypic" IQ can be theorized especially when the phenotypic IQ is more or less known. I assume that this is a guess with regard to nutrition and health that can be improved.

    Look at American Black athletes, and for that matter, virtually all Blacks that one can see about.
    They look well nourished, etc. How could a genotypic IQ be imagined for them...at the commonly reported average IQ of (phenotypic) 85?

    Then there is the matter of brain size. I often see Black brains reported as about 100 cc s less than White brains. Is this American Blacks, or African Blacks? Then there is also the variously reported East Asian brains at about 25 cc s more than Whites.

    I have not seen a qualitative look at this brain size issue. It's what's up front that counts, not elsewhere in the brain, as far as IQ is concerned. The pre-frontal cortex would seem to be where size matters. If, for example, Blacks were found to be particularly disadvantaged, with regard to that alleged missing 100 cc s, in the pre-frontal cortex...then it would explain a lot. Ditto Whites with regard to East Asians, or Jews.

    With all this imaging technology we have now, are there not some answers here?

    Also, with regard to Argentina, Lynn gives it a 93. As I understand it, there are almost no Indians there, a large number having been killed off around 1900. And yes, it was southern Europeans who apparently mostly migrated there. Lynn, in his later edition of IQ and Global Inequality( 2012 I think, and right now not available) breaks down southern Europe IQ scores more fully. As I recall, from his words recently here at Unz Review, he gives southern Italy about a 95 IQ average. Then there would be southern Spain as well which I guess has more Arab blood that northern Spain, the home of the Goths after Rome fell.

    The scholarly restraint is admirable, but...I have not seen anybody comment on the Global North selecting for high IQ cuz of ice and cold de-selecting the least fit, while the Global South had no comparable climatic dynamic.

    Is it politically incorrect here to offer up such speculation? With no other hypothesis to explain the steady fall of IQ going south from the North where the smart East Asians and Whites have sojourned for tens of thousands of years, why is this not discussed. The only exception to this general truth are the Jews and Amerindians.

    The Jews have had their selective breeding program for centuries, and apparently the 3 waves of Amerindians that washed down from the north came out of Asia, and we don't know where except that maybe it was Mongolian types or Siberian types, and we don't know anything about it beyond that, at least that is what I understand.

    A possible explanation of why Amerindians started out relatively dim witted is not known, but generally, smarter people push out dummies. I think the Hmong of Vietnam, what we called the Montagnards during the Vietnam war (mountains in French) were and are probably stupider than the Vietnamese who held the better rice growing lands. In other words, the lowlands are held by smarter and better organized people for farming and the dummies get pushed into the hills. (That is now reversed in affluent White man lands, with the rich getting the views, etc.)

    So, it is therefore possible that the Amerindians were pushed out of Asia, etc.

    If we are talking Darwin, and Fitness, there are other areas of fitness that are very important, not just IQ. Most important, for Civilization, would be Individualism vs. Collectivism. The Chinese where I live in Silicon Valley, are getting a very bad reputation. Cheats and thieves is the standard criticism coming from Whites who work with them. I have no experience here except for on the street. Watch out for Asian women in SUVs. Then there is their absurd superstitiousness, fortune cookies , feng shwey, Luck factors when buying real-estate. That computational brain goes into magical thinking when numbers can't tell the story.

    In short there seems to be no there there.

    What is so odd is that liberals refuse to believe that where one comes from might say something about your character. You bring in a Chinese from a totalitarian communist(or whatever it is) country and expect a White man or woman , interested in the Public Interest or the Common Weal? Or a Haitian, or an Arab, or a Kenyan? For a people without a History (that's us these days, aided and abetted by
    commercialism , consumerism, and liberal and Jewish lies about Creeds and Change! and Propositions...all men are creat..) What folly...at best. And at worst, creating civil war, a failed state, which I suspect is what the Jewish Power wants for us as well what they purposed for the Arabs.

    Especially for the Jews to trumpet Liberalism and creeds and multi-racialism...with Israel as their ace-in-the-hole, and Spiritual Home....you believe this ? The Jews and the OT are a Darwinian discourse with Agency.
    Joe Webb

    , @Joe Cosmonaut
    Steve-O,

    You're assuming Vietnamese drop outs are dumb. Do you know for sure that the 15 year olds who didn't show up for PISA 2012 didn't show up due to economic reasons?

    Even Amy Chua who left the Vietnamese out of her group of elites, i.e. Chinese, Jews, Nigerians, Mormons, etc., has curiously spoken of blue collar Vietnamese Americans outperforming their white collar white counterparts in school.

    More over, Jason Malloy puts Vietnamese American "AQ" at 104 and rising, and Vietnamese Australian "AQ" at 109.

    VIETNAMESE CULTURE IS CONFUCIAN. It puts paramount emphasis on education. That is why blue collar Vietnamese will outperform white collar whites. The drop-out who didn't show up for 2012 PISA would still on average do better than his/her white collar counterpart in the US of A.

    If you don't understand confucianism, you might be confused. Git er done!
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  • @Sparsh
    A quote from a commentator who goes by the name 'YoungWeber' on The Economist which I think broadly applies to this post:

    You sir, are broadly symptomatic with what is wrong with Western Civilization; a return to superstition and magical thinking. Five hundred years ago people were talking about fate determined in the star; now, it is fate determined by your genes. The West is dying, among other reasons, because of a loss in the belief in the power of human agency.

    As for the magic/ mythical "G" factor; what does it mean; does it trump all other factor; in what condition does it appear? Two case standout; prior to 1870 Germany was poor and backward, but in a forty-four year period between 1870-1914 German emerged as the most scientifically advanced nation in the world. Was it that "German genes" kicked in; was it that those great German scientist who were the sons of Lutheran minister all of a sudden began expressing dormant genetic traits? Perhaps, the fact the Prussia won the Franc-Prussian war, uniting all of Germany, and received five billion gold Francs in compensation, allowing more iron works and manufacturing facilities to built in four years than had be built in the previous seventy (and more 6,000 times more capital invested and one billion gold Francs in R&D) was the main factor.

    Again, in 1961, per capita GDP in South Korea was significantly lower than almost all of Sub-Saharan Africa, but by 1979 South Korea was the world's 10th largest exporter and today hold more patents "enforce" than the UK, France, or Germany; did the Korean genes become active? Perhaps, the success of South Korea had more to do with the discipline, organization, and drive of the dictatorship of Park Chung Hee.

    This comment is not very well thought-out.

    Prior to the industrial revolution all countries were very poor because of the Malthusian limits. Germany had produced very high population densities in an otherwise moderately favorable environment and they probably produced one of the finest cultures in the world, with their philosophers, composers, poets and writers, cathedrals, etc.

    Korea also had a highly refined culture and very high population density in 1960. North Korea is also a success story: they didn’t get much richer (because of the idiotic economic system), but they managed to build a functioning nuclear plant, intercontinental missiles, sent a satellite to space, and hacked Sony – none of them trivial achievements, and I’d bet none of these could be replicated with any other equally poor country. Though I’d suspect if we somehow teleported Bismarck’s poor Prussia to the present day world, they might be just as poor as North Korea, but probably could build a nuclear plant after a few decades if they had the same access to outside technologies as North Korea.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Was it that “German genes” kicked in” “did the Korean genes become active?”

    Thats exactly what happened. How did the prussians defeat the french? They had intelligence to do so.. the genes kicked in when given the chance..same with south korea. Are you gonna now tell me if a country like say nigeria all of a sudden had park chung hee or bismarck they would become sk or germany..yeah didnt think so. Btw where does this discipline and organization come from ..thats right from the genes. G isnt everything but you gotta have the genes in the first place!

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  • Continued…
    (Again quoted from YoungWeber on The Economist)
    So, you attribute the rise of the West to “genetic factors”? 500 years ago the average European was a toothless, superstitious, illiterate, innumerate, peasant serf; you would have been one of those opposed to the Great Reformers (like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and Knox) crying “serfs can’t learn to read and reason from the bible themselves, they don’t have the innate intellect, we should just teach them simple parables”. It was the action of the Great Reformer Knox, in his creation of parish schools, who believed everyman had a God given obligation to develop his intellect that saw literacy rates in Scotland go from 2% to 65% and set the stage for the Scottish Enlightenment that would produce Hume, Mills (James), Smith, Richard and many others. Read any history of Scotland and you would know it was a savage place in 1700, but the model of civilization (except for the drunkenness, still a problem) by 1750. True, no matter what you do, half your population will be below average, but you can still increase the average. In the Soviet Union, Stalin’s policy of mass industrialization involved the mass education of peasants; people for whom no in their families from time immemorial had received an education. Yet, Stalin turned peasants, themselves not their sons and daughters, into scientist, doctors, and engineers. Artem Mikoyan was a peasant, illiterate and innumerate until age 25; Stalin’s policy forced him into education. By 1939, Mikoyan was designing jet aircraft and went on to design the “Mig” (named after him). Was Stalin brutal, absolutely; I guess he beat those “smart genes” out of being dormant?

    Once Nubian erected great building and Germans lived in mud huts; now, Germans erect great building and Nubian live in mud huts; such is the tide of history. A genetic argument does not explain why France was once a brilliant nation, but today South Koreans are 8.87 times more innovative (by patents granted); did bad gene sneak in? South Korea, alone, produces more than 1.7 times more patents than all of Europe; 6.4 times more than Australia, a nation that operated a “Whites only” immigration policy. Again, in 1961, Gabon (in Sub-Saharan Africa) was four times richer; explain the gene factor?

    Even recently, the PISA scores in math and science for Kazakhstan went from 405 and 400, respectively, in 2009 to 432 and 425, respectively, in 2012; again, was that a genetic awakening? Kazakhstan was once as poor a Zimbabwe, circa 1995, but today, thanks to the discipline and dictatorship of Nazabeyev, the country’s GDP per capita (PPP) is on par with Greece and still growing. Of course, what do test scores matter; many European nations outscore Germany, but Germany is the only productive European nation(i.e the only country in the EU that significantly runs a net trade surplus with NON EUROZONE countries thus holding the value of the Euro).

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    500 years ago the average European was a toothless, superstitious, illiterate, innumerate, peasant serf
     
    You are surely aware that your "average European" had less than average descendants: it was the upper peasantry (the healthier, toothier, less superstitious, more hardworking, and 500 years ago already increasingly literate ones) who did the bulk of the reproduction business. Poor peasants were essentially unable to marry, or only married at a very late age, and most of their children - if they even had any - died at a very young age due to malnutrition or outright starvation. It's interesting to note that the upper classes were largely immune to diseases such as the plague - either because their circumstances protected them (cleaner water supplies, no contact with rats), or because they had better nutrition and so stronger immune systems. Or both. Apparently the poorer you were, the higher the chances of a bug killing you, and the lower the chances of you having descendants at all.

    We are all descended from the upper classes (not only nobility but also richer peasantry) of the middle ages and the genetic contribution of the poor peasantry is minuscule, even the middle peasantry is smaller.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome
    500 years ago the average European was a toothless, superstitious, illiterate, innumerate, peasant serf

    BTW, Europeans teeth rotted because of newly introduce sugarcane plantations in Carribean. Rich eat more expensive sugar and teeth rot more than poor. This is made possible by having advanced ship-building technology capable of open ocean travel.

    , @Hippopotamusdrome
    500 years ago the average European was a toothless, superstitious, illiterate, innumerate, peasant serf

    2015 - 500 = 1515

    1515: Manchester Grammar Schoolthe largest independent day school for boys in the United Kingdom is founded.
    ...
    The original deed promoted "godliness and good learning" and established that any boy showing sufficient academic ability, regardless of background, might attend, free of charge. The school was situated between Manchester Cathedral, then a collegiate church, and the church's domestic quarters

    1521: Spanish Catholic illiterate peasant blacksmiths manufacture technologically advanced steel weapons and cannons that allow 500 Spaniards to conquer Aztec Empire.

    1522: Portugese Catholic illiterate peasant shipbuilders construct ships capable of circumnavigating the globe.

    , @Hippopotamusdrome
    Once Nubian erected great building and Germans lived in mud huts

    Antiquity Nubian commoners lived in mud huts also.
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  • A quote from a commentator who goes by the name ‘YoungWeber’ on The Economist which I think broadly applies to this post:

    You sir, are broadly symptomatic with what is wrong with Western Civilization; a return to superstition and magical thinking. Five hundred years ago people were talking about fate determined in the star; now, it is fate determined by your genes. The West is dying, among other reasons, because of a loss in the belief in the power of human agency.

    As for the magic/ mythical “G” factor; what does it mean; does it trump all other factor; in what condition does it appear? Two case standout; prior to 1870 Germany was poor and backward, but in a forty-four year period between 1870-1914 German emerged as the most scientifically advanced nation in the world. Was it that “German genes” kicked in; was it that those great German scientist who were the sons of Lutheran minister all of a sudden began expressing dormant genetic traits? Perhaps, the fact the Prussia won the Franc-Prussian war, uniting all of Germany, and received five billion gold Francs in compensation, allowing more iron works and manufacturing facilities to built in four years than had be built in the previous seventy (and more 6,000 times more capital invested and one billion gold Francs in R&D) was the main factor.

    Again, in 1961, per capita GDP in South Korea was significantly lower than almost all of Sub-Saharan Africa, but by 1979 South Korea was the world’s 10th largest exporter and today hold more patents “enforce” than the UK, France, or Germany; did the Korean genes become active? Perhaps, the success of South Korea had more to do with the discipline, organization, and drive of the dictatorship of Park Chung Hee.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    This comment is not very well thought-out.

    Prior to the industrial revolution all countries were very poor because of the Malthusian limits. Germany had produced very high population densities in an otherwise moderately favorable environment and they probably produced one of the finest cultures in the world, with their philosophers, composers, poets and writers, cathedrals, etc.

    Korea also had a highly refined culture and very high population density in 1960. North Korea is also a success story: they didn't get much richer (because of the idiotic economic system), but they managed to build a functioning nuclear plant, intercontinental missiles, sent a satellite to space, and hacked Sony - none of them trivial achievements, and I'd bet none of these could be replicated with any other equally poor country. Though I'd suspect if we somehow teleported Bismarck's poor Prussia to the present day world, they might be just as poor as North Korea, but probably could build a nuclear plant after a few decades if they had the same access to outside technologies as North Korea.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome
    prior to 1870 Germany was poor and backward ... Perhaps, the fact the Prussia won the Franc-Prussian war

    They won the Franco-Prussian war because they had a more developed railroad network, allowing them to concentrate armies faster.

    History of rail transport in Germany German Railway history began with the opening of the steam-hauled Bavarian Ludwig Railway between Nuremberg and Fürth on 7 December 1835.

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  • “Yes. Also, Argentina, though settled by Europeans, was largely settled by very poor, uneducated ones from southern Europe who worked as laborers. Such people also came to North America in large numbers too, but they were not the dominant group in North America and acculturated to the more successful northwestern Euro culture. In Argentina, where the native elite were Spanish creole aristocratic landowners rather than WASPS and those similar to them, this did not happen. Nor did the relatively small numbers of German, British etc. immigrants come to really shape the Argentine culture.”

    Jewish Argentineans probably perform quite well in PISA tests.

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  • @Anthony
    Argentina is badly-run, and so the returns to education there aren't as great as they might be. So middling students might not see the advantage to remaining in school that they might in other countries. Without having looked into it, it's also possible that the way Argentina funds schools provides less incentive to school administrators to keep kids actually showing up in school than in other countries.

    Argentina is badly-run, and so the returns to education there aren’t as great as they might be.

    Yes. Also, Argentina, though settled by Europeans, was largely settled by very poor, uneducated ones from southern Europe who worked as laborers. Such people also came to North America in large numbers too, but they were not the dominant group in North America and acculturated to the more successful northwestern Euro culture. In Argentina, where the native elite were Spanish creole aristocratic landowners rather than WASPS and those similar to them, this did not happen. Nor did the relatively small numbers of German, British etc. immigrants come to really shape the Argentine culture.

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  • Jefferson: Argentina does not score very well on PISA tests despite having significantly less Amerindian and Sub Saharan African admixture than other Hispanic groups like Cubans and Mexicans.

    I don’t think international educational rankings are good measures of national IQs.

    There are divergences between European nations contrary to published IQ data, and you get results like African Americans outscoring or pulling equal to a number of European origin countries (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4ify7vDXrDs/TRFeGl7ocuI/AAAAAAAAGzo/Or4W468_WK4/s1600/PISA_Intl_Scores.png) Uraguay, Chile, Argentina.

    Similarly, in the TIMMS 2003, where Singapore gave disaggregated ethnic performances, the Singapore Malays in mathematics “performed as well (in fact a little better on average) as students in Netherlands and Belgium, who were the top performing European countries in the study. They also performed significantly better in Mathematics than students in the United States, Australia, Sweden and Israel” (cf http://scholarbank.nus.edu.sg/bitstream/handle/10635/12980/Singapore%20Malays%20Attitude%20Towards%20Education.pdf?sequence=1 – page 100). Singapore though, has not given any data like this subsequently, but it doesn’t seem particularly surprising.

    Like SAT scores, international school comparisons yield problems for estimates of IQ scores.

    Much of the reason that IQ tests probably correlate well with international educational systems is that educational system performance is probably a function to a large extent of the intelligence, yes, but the intelligence of *teachers*, with much noise in terms of how interested in education the country is (e.g. some countries care less about qualifications or early education and more about college, post-grad and work, so perform worse in the former areas relative to their performance in the latter).

    Students intellectual performance actually probably contributes only a small part.

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  • The percentage of Argentines who self identified themselves as White has seen a decrease from 97 percent to 85 percent. I wonder why that is ?

    I wonder if it is due to immigration from poorer and darker South American countries like their neighbors the Bolivians for example. Or maybe some Argentine Multiracials stopped self identifying as “White” and started embracing their mixed race roots.

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  • anon • Disclaimer says:

    It probably doesn’t seem very likely but considering one of the odd things about Argentina is that it has mostly Euro dna combined with a lot of Amerindian mtdna then it makes me wonder if there’s something in euro mtdna that might effect early brain development e.g. via breast milk.

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  • Regarding the claim that so few SNPs could not provide useful information, I would point out that an index of fewer than 30 obesity alleles that could only account for 2 to 4 percent of the estimated heritability still had useful predictive power for individuals, and I showed that the weighted allele frequencies would suggest that Asians would have less obesity. Another reason why this might be the case is that Ehret et al found that some missing heritability is hidden within identified loci with multiple association signals.

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  • @AG
    This is truely breakthrough research if this is the first ever publication on SNPs and g factor.

    Great job!

    It is not. We, that is mostly Piffer, published on it before. One sees a similar pattern with the ADHD SNPs, which is expected because ADHD has been found to correlate genetically with IQ in studies.

    First publication on this idea I think was:

    Factor Analysis of Population Allele Frequencies as a Simple, Novel Method of Detecting Signals of Recent Polygenic Selection: The Example of Educational Attainment and IQ. D Piffer
    D Piffer
    Mankind Quarterly 54 (2), 168-200

    Others:
    Statistical associations between genetic polymorphisms modulating executive function and intelligence suggest recent selective pressure on cognitive abilities.
    D Piffer
    Mankind Quarterly 54 (1), 3-25

    Opposite selection pressures on stature and intelligence across human populations
    D Piffer
    Open Behavioral Genetics

    The genetic correlation between educational attainment, intracranial volume and IQ is due to recent polygenic selection on general cognitive ability
    D Piffer, E Kirkegaard
    Open Behavioral Genetics

    The ADHD one is still in preparation. The draft is here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Sb68X4TImRK5_QhUkUftokBpKrXyO8H5cT2Ou8H75xk/edit

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    • Replies: @unpc downunder
    In popular books and articles about ADHD doctors often say that ADHD isn't correlated with IQ, yet these same doctors also say that a high proportion of the prison population has ADHD. Surely if a high percentage of prisoners have it then there must be a correlation with IQ.

    My take on this is that they are writing books and articles for reasonably bright middle class people with mild to moderate problems with impulsiveness and inattention. However, these people don't represent the average person with serious ADHD problems.

    Interestingly, one German study found inattentiveness without hyperactivity was more common in German school kids than American school kids. It's possible that inattentiveness without hyperactivity is correlated with north European traits like introversion.
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