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    EDIT, 5/30/15: [Post updated with results of new meta-analyses of behavioral genetic studies. See below!] Edit, 1/3/13: [Post updated to reflect additional information provided in the comments. See below and see the comments.] The time has come for a little reminder of the First Law of behavioral genetics. In my final post of 2012, I...
  • @Anonymous
    https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/04/16/beware-of-hbd/

    "I think I’d rather be hated by a 250-pound beer-guzzling, pick-up-driving, Confederate flag-waving bubba than some socially-deprived STEM geek quant."

    by the way your hereditary studies even explicitly chalk some of their phenomenon up to environmental factors, which is funny because you have an instinctual need (and probably environmentally reinforced) to believe that isn't possible and yet you cited it.


    All the studies to a one you ever link are A.) outdated B.) dont say what you want them to say C.) you ban everyone that demonstrates this D.) rely on p-values which the scientific community is gradually abandoning

    by the way your hereditary studies even explicitly chalk some of their phenomenon up to environmental factors

    No.

    All the studies to a one you ever link are A.) outdated

    Nope, see above.

    B.) dont say what you want them to say

    To people who can’t read, sure.

    you ban everyone that demonstrates this

    I ban annoying dumbasses.

    rely on p-values which the scientific community is gradually abandoning

    Oh fuck’s sake! You have got to be kidding me.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/04/16/beware-of-hbd/

    “I think I’d rather be hated by a 250-pound beer-guzzling, pick-up-driving, Confederate flag-waving bubba than some socially-deprived STEM geek quant.”

    by the way your hereditary studies even explicitly chalk some of their phenomenon up to environmental factors, which is funny because you have an instinctual need (and probably environmentally reinforced) to believe that isn’t possible and yet you cited it.

    All the studies to a one you ever link are A.) outdated B.) dont say what you want them to say C.) you ban everyone that demonstrates this D.) rely on p-values which the scientific community is gradually abandoning

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    by the way your hereditary studies even explicitly chalk some of their phenomenon up to environmental factors
     
    No.

    All the studies to a one you ever link are A.) outdated
     
    Nope, see above.

    B.) dont say what you want them to say
     
    To people who can't read, sure.

    you ban everyone that demonstrates this
     
    I ban annoying dumbasses.

    rely on p-values which the scientific community is gradually abandoning
     
    Oh fuck's sake! You have got to be kidding me.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • […] about the human personality intelligence, extraversion, neuroticism, aggressiveness, and so on is heritable to some degree117, typically at around the fifty percent level. This suggests that the human personality, and the […]

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  • […] about the human personality—intelligence, extraversion, neuroticism, aggressiveness, and so on—is heritable to some degree, typically at around the fifty percent […]

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Post edited (12/10/12). See below! Commenter szopeno once noted that if you ask women what their ideal family size is, you will get an average of about 2.1-2.5 children (trending towards the low side in Western world). As previously discussed here, the decline in fertility among Whites in America is primarily among liberals, with White...
  • […] As I detailed in my post The Rise of Universalism, the universalist behavior of Northwestern Europeans is a natural consequence of their special flavor of reciprocal altruism, which is not strictly kin-centric and views all people (indeed, often non-humans as well) as potential recipients for sympathy. In that post, I explain how modern technology led to an inevitable increase in universalism among Northwestern Europeans – that runaway universalism was inevitable. Clearly an inherited phenotype can’t be a pathology when it is possessed by sizable fractions of the populations under consideration. Rather universalist sentiment is a feature, not a bug (or more accurately, it is the result of a feature).  It’s not even clear that such traits even have a direct negative fitness impact, as it’s not yet been established that such individuals aren’t the most fertile in these countries (though it appears to be presently deleterious in the United States). […]

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  • EDIT, 5/30/15: [Post updated with results of new meta-analyses of behavioral genetic studies. See below!] Edit, 1/3/13: [Post updated to reflect additional information provided in the comments. See below and see the comments.] The time has come for a little reminder of the First Law of behavioral genetics. In my final post of 2012, I...
  • […] I begin, I want to be clear that it should be understood that all human behavioral traits are heritable, with “nurture” as its commonly thought of playing a minimal role to nonexistent […]

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  • […] Religion comes to the religious because that’s how their brains are wired. A believer cannot think any different … Believers literally have God/Earth spirits/Buddha on the brain. To such a person, their deities are as real as the Sun in the sky (since, after all, the believer’s brain is the only brain he’s got). Religiosity is highly heritable (as are all behavioral traits)… […]

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  • […] between the people who inhabit them Edit: [see the aforementioned preceding posts, and see my posts All Human Behavioral Traits are Heritable, Environmental Hereditarianism, and The Son Becomes The Father; recapped in my 200th post, […]

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  • I receive hundreds of emails each day, a volume that is not that unusual and is probably experienced also by many readers of this website. As I have been actively involved in the debate over national security policies since 2003, much of the material I receive is partisan in nature. It’s a regular smorgasbord but...
  • […] I have recently found that many conservatives and even libertarians now tend to shy away from serious debate on national security issues. They have become particularly nervous about discussing Israel’s role in the formulation of U.S. foreign policy for reasons that I can only guess at. CPAC had only one foreign policy panel in its most recent iteration and the various libertarian gatherings have become comfortable with anodyne anti-war bumper stickers as a substitute for any serious probing of the issues underlying America’s downward spiral. http://www.unz.com/article/the-politics-of-protest-is-literally-killing-us/ […]

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  • KA says:
    @Ron Unz
    Well, in glancing over this seemingly endless comment-thread, it appears that our friend "Sam Shama" somewhere claimed to have a tested IQ of 204.

    Now this is certainly *possible.* As near as I can tell at least something like a couple of hundred Americans fall into the 200+ IQ range. However, just like some anonymous website commenter who claims to be 7'4" tall, I'm somewhat skeptical...

    None of his comments seem particularly impressive or brilliant, mostly being the sort of standard "talking points" you can find everywhere on the web. On the other hand, he does seem to be a remarkably slippery and dishonest individual in his positions, so perhaps his alleged seven-sigma superiority actually is centered in those latter traits.

    In support of that hypothesis, he cites as an unimpeachable authority Alan Dershowitz, a notorious liar and plagiarist. Perhaps we'll next see him suggest that his other personal role model is that renowned scientific genius, the late Stephen Jay Gould...

    However, a somewhat discordant note is his claim that he earns his living as some sort of financier. Freely volunteering the information that he exists as a harmful parasite in our severely infested socio-economic system is hardly an indicator of either dishonesty or intelligence, so the verdict is a bit unclear.

    As for the overall trajectory of our American society, here's a link to an article I published on that subject a couple of years ago:

    http://www.unz.com/article/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    When Khatami ( Iran) visited USA, he was greeted by the neocon crowd with epithets and slurs reserved for criminal . Alan Dershowitz equated him to David Duke . Boston Herald taking advantage of American stupidity pertaining to secular and fundamentalism or Shia and Sunni and Arab and Iran blamed the invitation by Harvard extended to Khatami as the arrogant expression of Arab Lobby.

    ( John Walsh in Counterpunch . Sept 12 2006 )

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    OK. I hadn't seen your previous words, and I hereby acknowledge without reservation an apology.

    Rabin's words.

    Look, Rabin amongst many, had been trying to achieve peace (which later on he re-attempted with Arafat and paid for with his life). The unvarnished truth is a combination of the following: (1) the generals in Israel most certainly wanted to take full advantage of the un-coordinated, amateurish behaviour of Nasser and Jordan; Hussein himself was occupying theWest Bank violating armistice, played into the hands of the generals. (2) Quigley's mechanistic interpretation of 242, ignoring the entire history and context, which should include in the least, 1957 and 1948, bypasses reality, one of which is that 2/3rds of the world's populated area is child of wars fought by design and accident.

    Rather than rehashing, here is some of Rostow's thoughts (Dershowitz I won't post, since I know your feelings on the matter)

    http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1313&context=djcil

    Apology accepted. Now that I have demonstrated that I condemn hate-speech, are you willing to do the same?

    Specifically, are you willing to condemn the vile hate speech propagated by the likes of Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, and the Clarion Fund, (a Zionist front group that produced the trilogy of films that inspired Anders Breivik to murder over 70 Norwegians) whose sole objective is to incite in the goy Islamophobia?

    In short, are you prepared to condemn the real haters who are intent on causing death and destruction or is your angst limited to those who call into question the morality of the actions of the Zionst project?

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  • @Carroll Price
    Some people will try to tell you that there are two kinds of "Jewish people"; The rather harmless, gentle Sephardic Jew who just wants to live and get along as best he can, and Zionist Jews who are responsible for the wars and financial havoc being wrecked on the world today. An argument I would tend to buy into, except for the fact that I am also happen to know (from reading history) that Jews, as parasites, were robbing, ruining and wrecking nations long before Zionism came into existence as a political force.

    “I am also happen to know (from reading history) that Jews, as parasites, were robbing, ruining and wrecking nations long before Zionism”

    Must have been authored by someone who decided that history would be unkind to the Jews, because he intended to write it.

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  • @annamaria
    ethnocentricity is a brutal force that makes people blind and deaf to other peoples' pain if these others present a competition.
    There has never been homogeneity among Jewish people and this is particularly true today, when many Israelis are the opportunistic newcomers from distant lands, which boast their Jewish identity for purely political and economic gains. The noble Jewish tradition is of no value for the aggressive lot. It does not help that among the leading neocons there is the number of influential Israel firsters that look upon the US as a useful tool for protecting their biblical rights and superiority and other childish dreams that infuse the tribalists with the sense of significance.

    Some people will try to tell you that there are two kinds of “Jewish people”; The rather harmless, gentle Sephardic Jew who just wants to live and get along as best he can, and Zionist Jews who are responsible for the wars and financial havoc being wrecked on the world today. An argument I would tend to buy into, except for the fact that I am also happen to know (from reading history) that Jews, as parasites, were robbing, ruining and wrecking nations long before Zionism came into existence as a political force.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Fran Macadam
    "I am also happen to know (from reading history) that Jews, as parasites, were robbing, ruining and wrecking nations long before Zionism"

    Must have been authored by someone who decided that history would be unkind to the Jews, because he intended to write it.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62
    Thanks for the link, annamarina.

    Just wondering whether our friend, Mr. Shama, takes issue with how the author characterizes last summer's assault on the Gazans:

    "... a war of a ruthless occupier against an almost defenseless people."

    ethnocentricity is a brutal force that makes people blind and deaf to other peoples’ pain if these others present a competition.
    There has never been homogeneity among Jewish people and this is particularly true today, when many Israelis are the opportunistic newcomers from distant lands, which boast their Jewish identity for purely political and economic gains. The noble Jewish tradition is of no value for the aggressive lot. It does not help that among the leading neocons there is the number of influential Israel firsters that look upon the US as a useful tool for protecting their biblical rights and superiority and other childish dreams that infuse the tribalists with the sense of significance.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Carroll Price
    Some people will try to tell you that there are two kinds of "Jewish people"; The rather harmless, gentle Sephardic Jew who just wants to live and get along as best he can, and Zionist Jews who are responsible for the wars and financial havoc being wrecked on the world today. An argument I would tend to buy into, except for the fact that I am also happen to know (from reading history) that Jews, as parasites, were robbing, ruining and wrecking nations long before Zionism came into existence as a political force.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    "Again, in keeping with traditions in this echo-chamber,..."
     
    If you think UR is an "echo-chamber," why do you bother posting comments here?

    This simply reinforces my suspicion that your presence here is not quite what it seems. I think your true motive for being here is identical to that of your predecessor, the M.A. in Physics - namely, to police the goy for their unseemly thought crimes!

    Why don't you come clean and admit it? Otherwise, we have no choice but to conclude that you are obsessed with listening to echoes, echoes, echoes, ...

    Suspicion? I thought it was obvious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

    I’m not one to talk though. I’ve aided in the ruin of many of a comment thread. The moderator probably hates me.

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  • @annamaria
    Here is a supplemental material for Rostow arguments.
    "The Children of Gaza’s Harrowing Cry for Help:" http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/06/26/the-children-of-gazas-harrowing-cry-for-help/

    Thanks for the link, annamarina.

    Just wondering whether our friend, Mr. Shama, takes issue with how the author characterizes last summer’s assault on the Gazans:

    “… a war of a ruthless occupier against an almost defenseless people.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    ethnocentricity is a brutal force that makes people blind and deaf to other peoples' pain if these others present a competition.
    There has never been homogeneity among Jewish people and this is particularly true today, when many Israelis are the opportunistic newcomers from distant lands, which boast their Jewish identity for purely political and economic gains. The noble Jewish tradition is of no value for the aggressive lot. It does not help that among the leading neocons there is the number of influential Israel firsters that look upon the US as a useful tool for protecting their biblical rights and superiority and other childish dreams that infuse the tribalists with the sense of significance.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Priceless.

    Ron lashing out shines a spotlight on your own failings: hypocrisy, since you made your little pile working and then selling to Wall Street your tortured, user-unfriendly software; penning a pretentious "statistical" expose on the Ivies, rendered insignificant for its sophomoric measurement and specification errors, reduces you to hurling ad hominem attacks on those who objectively critiqued you!

    Bravo! Do run for office again.

    Rather a petulant dud, don’t you think, for the intellectual firepower of IQ 204?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62
    "The unvarnished truth..."

    Ever wonder why the advocates of the Zionist project are only prepared to proffer the truth on an exceptional basis - i.e., after being repeatedly challenged on a particular issue - rather than it being de rigueur from the outset? It would save a lot of time and effort... but I guess that's part of their strategic thinking - grind it out until they're too tired to continue!

    btw - do you have a response to annamarina's post below regarding Rostow and the illegal settlements?

    Here is a supplemental material for Rostow arguments.
    “The Children of Gaza’s Harrowing Cry for Help:” http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/06/26/the-children-of-gazas-harrowing-cry-for-help/

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62
    Thanks for the link, annamarina.

    Just wondering whether our friend, Mr. Shama, takes issue with how the author characterizes last summer's assault on the Gazans:

    "... a war of a ruthless occupier against an almost defenseless people."
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ron Unz
    Well, in glancing over this seemingly endless comment-thread, it appears that our friend "Sam Shama" somewhere claimed to have a tested IQ of 204.

    Now this is certainly *possible.* As near as I can tell at least something like a couple of hundred Americans fall into the 200+ IQ range. However, just like some anonymous website commenter who claims to be 7'4" tall, I'm somewhat skeptical...

    None of his comments seem particularly impressive or brilliant, mostly being the sort of standard "talking points" you can find everywhere on the web. On the other hand, he does seem to be a remarkably slippery and dishonest individual in his positions, so perhaps his alleged seven-sigma superiority actually is centered in those latter traits.

    In support of that hypothesis, he cites as an unimpeachable authority Alan Dershowitz, a notorious liar and plagiarist. Perhaps we'll next see him suggest that his other personal role model is that renowned scientific genius, the late Stephen Jay Gould...

    However, a somewhat discordant note is his claim that he earns his living as some sort of financier. Freely volunteering the information that he exists as a harmful parasite in our severely infested socio-economic system is hardly an indicator of either dishonesty or intelligence, so the verdict is a bit unclear.

    As for the overall trajectory of our American society, here's a link to an article I published on that subject a couple of years ago:

    http://www.unz.com/article/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    Priceless.

    Ron lashing out shines a spotlight on your own failings: hypocrisy, since you made your little pile working and then selling to Wall Street your tortured, user-unfriendly software; penning a pretentious “statistical” expose on the Ivies, rendered insignificant for its sophomoric measurement and specification errors, reduces you to hurling ad hominem attacks on those who objectively critiqued you!

    Bravo! Do run for office again.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Fran Macadam
    Rather a petulant dud, don't you think, for the intellectual firepower of IQ 204?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    OK. I hadn't seen your previous words, and I hereby acknowledge without reservation an apology.

    Rabin's words.

    Look, Rabin amongst many, had been trying to achieve peace (which later on he re-attempted with Arafat and paid for with his life). The unvarnished truth is a combination of the following: (1) the generals in Israel most certainly wanted to take full advantage of the un-coordinated, amateurish behaviour of Nasser and Jordan; Hussein himself was occupying theWest Bank violating armistice, played into the hands of the generals. (2) Quigley's mechanistic interpretation of 242, ignoring the entire history and context, which should include in the least, 1957 and 1948, bypasses reality, one of which is that 2/3rds of the world's populated area is child of wars fought by design and accident.

    Rather than rehashing, here is some of Rostow's thoughts (Dershowitz I won't post, since I know your feelings on the matter)

    http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1313&context=djcil

    “The unvarnished truth…”

    Ever wonder why the advocates of the Zionist project are only prepared to proffer the truth on an exceptional basis – i.e., after being repeatedly challenged on a particular issue – rather than it being de rigueur from the outset? It would save a lot of time and effort… but I guess that’s part of their strategic thinking – grind it out until they’re too tired to continue!

    btw – do you have a response to annamarina’s post below regarding Rostow and the illegal settlements?

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Here is a supplemental material for Rostow arguments.
    "The Children of Gaza’s Harrowing Cry for Help:" http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/06/26/the-children-of-gazas-harrowing-cry-for-help/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    As I said at very start, your echo chamber does not extend beyond the "interpretations" of Mondoweiss and a few others. I am fully conversant with Quigley's work, which was destroyed as a matter of international law & jurisprudence, as well as on factual basis by Rostow as well as Alan Dershowitz. btw, the Wiki article (the power of open source) discusses the controversy....

    Rostow:
    Israel's action in June, 1967, was a reasonably proportionate defensive
    response to an armed attack. 2 The attack consisted in the first instance
    of the closing of the Straits of Tiran and a huge Arab mobilization all
    around Israel, backed by violent calls for a Holy War to destroy Israel. 3
    Given escalating guerilla infiltrations of increasing sophistication and
    intensity, and the location of the Straits of Tiran, the destruction of the
    Arab armies in the Sinai Desert by Israel was not only proportional to
    the Egyptian delict - it was the only possible military response.
     

    “..Rostow as well as Alan Dershowitz..”
    You mean that these two gentlemen are known for their objectivity re Israel? Come on…
    Here is something on the international law by Mr. Rostow: “Israeli settlements are more than legitimate.” http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/24/challenging-the-long-held-notion-that-israeli-settlements-are-illegal/
    And here is something about Mr. Dershowitz the Lawyer: “The Jihad of Alan Dershowitz.” http://www.counterpunch.org/2004/09/30/the-jihad-of-alan-dershowitz/

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Well, in glancing over this seemingly endless comment-thread, it appears that our friend “Sam Shama” somewhere claimed to have a tested IQ of 204.

    Now this is certainly *possible.* As near as I can tell at least something like a couple of hundred Americans fall into the 200+ IQ range. However, just like some anonymous website commenter who claims to be 7’4″ tall, I’m somewhat skeptical…

    None of his comments seem particularly impressive or brilliant, mostly being the sort of standard “talking points” you can find everywhere on the web. On the other hand, he does seem to be a remarkably slippery and dishonest individual in his positions, so perhaps his alleged seven-sigma superiority actually is centered in those latter traits.

    In support of that hypothesis, he cites as an unimpeachable authority Alan Dershowitz, a notorious liar and plagiarist. Perhaps we’ll next see him suggest that his other personal role model is that renowned scientific genius, the late Stephen Jay Gould…

    However, a somewhat discordant note is his claim that he earns his living as some sort of financier. Freely volunteering the information that he exists as a harmful parasite in our severely infested socio-economic system is hardly an indicator of either dishonesty or intelligence, so the verdict is a bit unclear.

    As for the overall trajectory of our American society, here’s a link to an article I published on that subject a couple of years ago:

    http://www.unz.com/article/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Priceless.

    Ron lashing out shines a spotlight on your own failings: hypocrisy, since you made your little pile working and then selling to Wall Street your tortured, user-unfriendly software; penning a pretentious "statistical" expose on the Ivies, rendered insignificant for its sophomoric measurement and specification errors, reduces you to hurling ad hominem attacks on those who objectively critiqued you!

    Bravo! Do run for office again.

    , @KA
    When Khatami ( Iran) visited USA, he was greeted by the neocon crowd with epithets and slurs reserved for criminal . Alan Dershowitz equated him to David Duke . Boston Herald taking advantage of American stupidity pertaining to secular and fundamentalism or Shia and Sunni and Arab and Iran blamed the invitation by Harvard extended to Khatami as the arrogant expression of Arab Lobby.

    ( John Walsh in Counterpunch . Sept 12 2006 )
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    OK. I hadn't seen your previous words, and I hereby acknowledge without reservation an apology.

    Rabin's words.

    Look, Rabin amongst many, had been trying to achieve peace (which later on he re-attempted with Arafat and paid for with his life). The unvarnished truth is a combination of the following: (1) the generals in Israel most certainly wanted to take full advantage of the un-coordinated, amateurish behaviour of Nasser and Jordan; Hussein himself was occupying theWest Bank violating armistice, played into the hands of the generals. (2) Quigley's mechanistic interpretation of 242, ignoring the entire history and context, which should include in the least, 1957 and 1948, bypasses reality, one of which is that 2/3rds of the world's populated area is child of wars fought by design and accident.

    Rather than rehashing, here is some of Rostow's thoughts (Dershowitz I won't post, since I know your feelings on the matter)

    http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1313&context=djcil


    Mean’t to write “issue an unreserved apology”. Don’t want you to think that I was accepting an apology from you!

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  • @Fran Macadam
    http://www.unz.com/jpetras/pillage-and-class-polarization/

    Accurate. Too bad if the result is the last sentence, though.

    Thanks, hadn’t gotten to reading it, but just skimmed through it. Its a bit of a coincidence that I was emphasising inequality last evening…..

    Do mean the nationalisation or the outlawing derivatives, forex and “unnatural parasitic activities” (what are these?)

    I do understand the frustration. The world at large is changing very rapidly and he is trying to take on far too much, which will inevitably result in more frustration. I have some ideas that may be more achievable…

    Read More
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  • @geokat62

    "... otoh I have not seen any obvious attempts to discourage or dissociate from the bilious and vitriolic either."
     
    Is this attempt obvious enough?:

    @Blurp

    Congratulations on another impressive splenetic diatribe!

    Buffoon? Ouch!

    Just for the record, since I’ve already denounced the racist comments of other posters on Unz,

    “Glad to see the kind of audience Unz and Giraldi are attracting:…”

    This Anonymous character is the exception, not the rule. Most posters on Unz are fair-minded and make responsible comments without any hints of racism. Knowing the MO of hasbarists, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was a zio-troll intentionally trying to damage the reputation of Unz by posting such repugnant comments!

    I’ll leave it to folks like you to do so in the future, given that you are being paid to “police the Goy” as another poster aptly put it.
     

    btw - do you mind responding to the Rabin quote?

    OK. I hadn’t seen your previous words, and I hereby acknowledge without reservation an apology.

    Rabin’s words.

    Look, Rabin amongst many, had been trying to achieve peace (which later on he re-attempted with Arafat and paid for with his life). The unvarnished truth is a combination of the following: (1) the generals in Israel most certainly wanted to take full advantage of the un-coordinated, amateurish behaviour of Nasser and Jordan; Hussein himself was occupying theWest Bank violating armistice, played into the hands of the generals. (2) Quigley’s mechanistic interpretation of 242, ignoring the entire history and context, which should include in the least, 1957 and 1948, bypasses reality, one of which is that 2/3rds of the world’s populated area is child of wars fought by design and accident.

    Rather than rehashing, here is some of Rostow’s thoughts (Dershowitz I won’t post, since I know your feelings on the matter)

    http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1313&context=djcil

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    @geokat62
    Mean't to write "issue an unreserved apology". Don't want you to think that I was accepting an apology from you!
    , @geokat62
    "The unvarnished truth..."

    Ever wonder why the advocates of the Zionist project are only prepared to proffer the truth on an exceptional basis - i.e., after being repeatedly challenged on a particular issue - rather than it being de rigueur from the outset? It would save a lot of time and effort... but I guess that's part of their strategic thinking - grind it out until they're too tired to continue!

    btw - do you have a response to annamarina's post below regarding Rostow and the illegal settlements?
    , @geokat62
    Apology accepted. Now that I have demonstrated that I condemn hate-speech, are you willing to do the same?

    Specifically, are you willing to condemn the vile hate speech propagated by the likes of Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, and the Clarion Fund, (a Zionist front group that produced the trilogy of films that inspired Anders Breivik to murder over 70 Norwegians) whose sole objective is to incite in the goy Islamophobia?

    In short, are you prepared to condemn the real haters who are intent on causing death and destruction or is your angst limited to those who call into question the morality of the actions of the Zionst project?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama

    You might claim your private firm doesn’t get losses socialised; so how would going after the big boys be bad for your company then? Does it at all invest in buying sovereign debt for pennies on the dollar, then dun the debtor nation for the full amount? How about the trick of austerity and suffering for populations, when ruinous loans were knowingly extended, just as destabilised a Weimar facing World War I debts that wouldn’t be paid off until 1989, the year the Berlin Wall fell?
     
    I claim it, for it is so. I have no problems with going after the "Big Boys" (the banks or their CEOs?). The issue becomes what is the exact nature of the crime they committed? Issuing loans that in hindsight the borrower could not pay? Perhaps, but that is impossible to prosecute!

    Nope, I don't believe in buying Argentinian debt pennies on the dollar and then subjecting the country to a faulty interpretation of the law, handed by a cantankerous old judge! Same applies to the purchasers of the FNM/ FRE debt and then trying to soak taxpayers.

    I believe, nay I know, that austerity is rubbish from a macroeconomic perspective and has caused great harm to the U.S. economy, which can finance at very low rates. We should engage in (in my estimate) about $3tr financed at 2.3% on infrastructure in the U.S. over 5 years. This will add millions of jobs and has a projected return well over 9%!

    A very similar thing is happening in Europe, where Germany which immeasurably benefited from the adoption of the weak EUR currency, thus getting it out of the "sick man of Europe" condition to what has been termed Wirtschaftswunder, is entirely due to the magic of the weak currency that they could only have as a part of the Euro and suppressing wages in Germany for decades. Greece is now being subjected to insane conditions such as 50% unemployment and a 30% shrinkage in their GDP, as a sacrificial lamb to the illogical demands of austerity, which is neither socially sustainable nor economically smart!


    Balnkfein? Well he is a phenomenal trader, and taught Greece how to dress-up its balance sheet!

    http://www.unz.com/jpetras/pillage-and-class-polarization/

    Accurate. Too bad if the result is the last sentence, though.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Thanks, hadn't gotten to reading it, but just skimmed through it. Its a bit of a coincidence that I was emphasising inequality last evening.....

    Do mean the nationalisation or the outlawing derivatives, forex and "unnatural parasitic activities" (what are these?)

    I do understand the frustration. The world at large is changing very rapidly and he is trying to take on far too much, which will inevitably result in more frustration. I have some ideas that may be more achievable...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Point taken. I certainly have not seen any from you, otoh I have not seen any obvious attempts to discourage or dissociate from the bilious and vitriolic either.

    Also for the record, I don't really get overly bothered by words. (the "204" allusions are pretty funny, a point of pride in my 20s, sort of escaped in a moment of fractious debate. Again for the record, I believe that while initial human endowments might be different, due perhaps to a sprinkling of selection, most of achievement is simply a matter of persistence and efficiency)

    “… otoh I have not seen any obvious attempts to discourage or dissociate from the bilious and vitriolic either.”

    Is this attempt obvious enough?:

    @Blurp

    Congratulations on another impressive splenetic diatribe!

    Buffoon? Ouch!

    Just for the record, since I’ve already denounced the racist comments of other posters on Unz,

    “Glad to see the kind of audience Unz and Giraldi are attracting:…”

    This Anonymous character is the exception, not the rule. Most posters on Unz are fair-minded and make responsible comments without any hints of racism. Knowing the MO of hasbarists, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was a zio-troll intentionally trying to damage the reputation of Unz by posting such repugnant comments!

    I’ll leave it to folks like you to do so in the future, given that you are being paid to “police the Goy” as another poster aptly put it.

    btw – do you mind responding to the Rabin quote?

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    OK. I hadn't seen your previous words, and I hereby acknowledge without reservation an apology.

    Rabin's words.

    Look, Rabin amongst many, had been trying to achieve peace (which later on he re-attempted with Arafat and paid for with his life). The unvarnished truth is a combination of the following: (1) the generals in Israel most certainly wanted to take full advantage of the un-coordinated, amateurish behaviour of Nasser and Jordan; Hussein himself was occupying theWest Bank violating armistice, played into the hands of the generals. (2) Quigley's mechanistic interpretation of 242, ignoring the entire history and context, which should include in the least, 1957 and 1948, bypasses reality, one of which is that 2/3rds of the world's populated area is child of wars fought by design and accident.

    Rather than rehashing, here is some of Rostow's thoughts (Dershowitz I won't post, since I know your feelings on the matter)

    http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1313&context=djcil
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  • @geokat62
    "... the echoe chamber comparison is apt when it comes to Jews; its a montonic (sic) function of hatred"

    Do you detect any hatred in any of my postings? If so, please provide evidence.

    Point taken. I certainly have not seen any from you, otoh I have not seen any obvious attempts to discourage or dissociate from the bilious and vitriolic either.

    Also for the record, I don’t really get overly bothered by words. (the “204″ allusions are pretty funny, a point of pride in my 20s, sort of escaped in a moment of fractious debate. Again for the record, I believe that while initial human endowments might be different, due perhaps to a sprinkling of selection, most of achievement is simply a matter of persistence and efficiency)

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    • Replies: @geokat62

    "... otoh I have not seen any obvious attempts to discourage or dissociate from the bilious and vitriolic either."
     
    Is this attempt obvious enough?:

    @Blurp

    Congratulations on another impressive splenetic diatribe!

    Buffoon? Ouch!

    Just for the record, since I’ve already denounced the racist comments of other posters on Unz,

    “Glad to see the kind of audience Unz and Giraldi are attracting:…”

    This Anonymous character is the exception, not the rule. Most posters on Unz are fair-minded and make responsible comments without any hints of racism. Knowing the MO of hasbarists, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was a zio-troll intentionally trying to damage the reputation of Unz by posting such repugnant comments!

    I’ll leave it to folks like you to do so in the future, given that you are being paid to “police the Goy” as another poster aptly put it.
     

    btw - do you mind responding to the Rabin quote?
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  • @Sam Shama
    I simply love to listen to people as it helps me crystallise and criticise my own thoughts. UR has smart people commenting, unlike the WSJ......the echo chamber comparison is apt when it comes to Jews; its a montonic function of hatred

    “… the echoe chamber comparison is apt when it comes to Jews; its a montonic (sic) function of hatred”

    Do you detect any hatred in any of my postings? If so, please provide evidence.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Point taken. I certainly have not seen any from you, otoh I have not seen any obvious attempts to discourage or dissociate from the bilious and vitriolic either.

    Also for the record, I don't really get overly bothered by words. (the "204" allusions are pretty funny, a point of pride in my 20s, sort of escaped in a moment of fractious debate. Again for the record, I believe that while initial human endowments might be different, due perhaps to a sprinkling of selection, most of achievement is simply a matter of persistence and efficiency)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • KA says:

    “Britain’s ambassador to Israel, Michael Hadow, after meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkol reported to London that Israel agreed with the British assessment “that Nasser’s new posture posed no real threat.” Nevertheless, Israel responded with additional deployments of its own in the south.

    In connection with the increase of its troop strength in Sinai, Egypt asked the UN to withdraw its observer force from the area. However, says Quigley, Egypt, the UN and the United States all offered to Israel that the observer force could be stationed in the Sinai on Israel’s side of the line. Israel refused.

    - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/06/understanding-still-matters#sthash.wA1PFrsr.dpuf

    - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/06/understanding-still-matters#sthash.wA1PFrsr.dpuf

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  • KA says:
    @Sam Shama
    As I said at very start, your echo chamber does not extend beyond the "interpretations" of Mondoweiss and a few others. I am fully conversant with Quigley's work, which was destroyed as a matter of international law & jurisprudence, as well as on factual basis by Rostow as well as Alan Dershowitz. btw, the Wiki article (the power of open source) discusses the controversy....

    Rostow:
    Israel's action in June, 1967, was a reasonably proportionate defensive
    response to an armed attack. 2 The attack consisted in the first instance
    of the closing of the Straits of Tiran and a huge Arab mobilization all
    around Israel, backed by violent calls for a Holy War to destroy Israel. 3
    Given escalating guerilla infiltrations of increasing sophistication and
    intensity, and the location of the Straits of Tiran, the destruction of the
    Arab armies in the Sinai Desert by Israel was not only proportional to
    the Egyptian delict - it was the only possible military response.
     

    ” closing of the Straits of Tiran” is heard nowadays . But No one from Israel leadership made this claim as a reason. May be it was.
    Now one can understand that why an actual blockade imposed by Israel from all directions immidiayrly after the election on Gaza let alone just to the sea could generate the appropriate responses from Palestinian but which could never be understood by the neocons other than in the terms of labeling Palestinian as irrational,suicidal,fanatic,primitive sufferring from hatred and rage.

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  • @Sam Shama
    As I said at very start, your echo chamber does not extend beyond the "interpretations" of Mondoweiss and a few others. I am fully conversant with Quigley's work, which was destroyed as a matter of international law & jurisprudence, as well as on factual basis by Rostow as well as Alan Dershowitz. btw, the Wiki article (the power of open source) discusses the controversy....

    Rostow:
    Israel's action in June, 1967, was a reasonably proportionate defensive
    response to an armed attack. 2 The attack consisted in the first instance
    of the closing of the Straits of Tiran and a huge Arab mobilization all
    around Israel, backed by violent calls for a Holy War to destroy Israel. 3
    Given escalating guerilla infiltrations of increasing sophistication and
    intensity, and the location of the Straits of Tiran, the destruction of the
    Arab armies in the Sinai Desert by Israel was not only proportional to
    the Egyptian delict - it was the only possible military response.
     

    “… your echo chamber does not extend beyond the “interpretations” of Mondoweiss and a few others.”

    Does Yitzhak Rabin qualify as a member of the echoe chamber?:

    [A]ccording to even Yitzhak Rabin, who was then the Chief of Staff of the Israel Defense Forces, “We did not think that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to Sinai on May 14 would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”

    “I am fully conversant with Quigley’s work, which was destroyed as a matter of international law & jurisprudence, as well as on factual basis by Rostow as well as Alan Dershowitz.”

    Could you be so kind and inform us as to which specific facts Prof. Quigley got wrong?

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  • @geokat62

    "Again, in keeping with traditions in this echo-chamber,..."
     
    If you think UR is an "echo-chamber," why do you bother posting comments here?

    This simply reinforces my suspicion that your presence here is not quite what it seems. I think your true motive for being here is identical to that of your predecessor, the M.A. in Physics - namely, to police the goy for their unseemly thought crimes!

    Why don't you come clean and admit it? Otherwise, we have no choice but to conclude that you are obsessed with listening to echoes, echoes, echoes, ...

    I simply love to listen to people as it helps me crystallise and criticise my own thoughts. UR has smart people commenting, unlike the WSJ……the echo chamber comparison is apt when it comes to Jews; its a montonic function of hatred

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62
    "... the echoe chamber comparison is apt when it comes to Jews; its a montonic (sic) function of hatred"

    Do you detect any hatred in any of my postings? If so, please provide evidence.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • KA says:
    @Sam Shama
    As I said at very start, your echo chamber does not extend beyond the "interpretations" of Mondoweiss and a few others. I am fully conversant with Quigley's work, which was destroyed as a matter of international law & jurisprudence, as well as on factual basis by Rostow as well as Alan Dershowitz. btw, the Wiki article (the power of open source) discusses the controversy....

    Rostow:
    Israel's action in June, 1967, was a reasonably proportionate defensive
    response to an armed attack. 2 The attack consisted in the first instance
    of the closing of the Straits of Tiran and a huge Arab mobilization all
    around Israel, backed by violent calls for a Holy War to destroy Israel. 3
    Given escalating guerilla infiltrations of increasing sophistication and
    intensity, and the location of the Straits of Tiran, the destruction of the
    Arab armies in the Sinai Desert by Israel was not only proportional to
    the Egyptian delict - it was the only possible military response.
     

    “Nasser added that “your own State Department called in my Ambassador to the U.S. in April or May and warned him that there were rumors that there might be a conflict between Israel and the UAR.”

    U.S. intelligence had indeed foreseen the coming war. “The CIA was right about the timing, duration, and outcome of the war”, notes David S. Robarge in an article available on the CIA’s website.

    On May 23, Director of Central Intelligence Richard Helms presented Johnson with the CIA’s assessment that Israel could “defend successfully against simultaneous Arab attacks on all fronts … or hold on any three fronts while mounting successfully a major offensive on the fourth.”

    In an document entitled “Military Capabilities of Israel and the Arab States”, the CIA assessed that “Israel could almost certainly attain air supremacy over the Sinai Peninsula in less than 24 hours after taking the initiative or in two or three days if the UAR struck first.”

    Additionally, the CIA assessed that Nasser’s military presence in the Sinai was defensive, stating that “Armored striking forces could breach the UAR’s double defense line in the Sinai in three to four days and drive the Egyptians west of the Suez Canal in seven to nine days. Israel could contain any attacks by Syria or Jordan during this period” (emphasis added).


    Neither U.S. nor Israeli intelligence assessed that there was any kind of serious threat of an Egyptian attack. On the contrary, both considered the possibility that Nasser might strike first as being extremely slim.

    The current Israeli Ambassador to the U.S., Michael B. Oren, acknowledged in his book “Six Days of War“, widely regarded as the definitive account of the war, that “By all reports Israel received from the Americans, and according to its own intelligence, Nasser had no interest in bloodshed”.


    Four days before Israel’s attack on Egypt, Helms met with a senior Israeli official who expressed Israel’s intent to go to war, and that the only reason it hadn’t already struck was because of efforts by the Johnson administration to restrain both sides to prevent a violent conflict

    Yitzhak Rabin, who would later become Prime Minister, told Le Monde the year following the ’67 war, “I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions which he sent to the Sinai, on May 14, would not have been sufficient to start an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”

    Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin acknowledged in a speech in 1982 that its war on Egypt in 1956 was a war of “choice” and that, “In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”

    Despite its total lack of sustainability from the documentary record, and despite such admissions from top Israeli officials, it is virtually obligatory for commentators in contemporary mainstream accounts of the ’67 war to describe Israel’s attack on Egypt as “preemptive

    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/07/04/israels-attack-on-egypt-in-june-67-was-not-preemptive/

    a

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  • @Fran Macadam
    Basically the objection to the bankster label, first applied to that cabal of Wall Street Firsters by a government regulator in the wake of The Great Depression they caused, is that, being "too big to fail" no matter the otherwise criminal behavior, they were therefore "too big to jail." But last time I looked, identified members of the Mafia are identified as gangsters, even if they've managed to evade being charged or convicted. It's quite the protection racket to achieve immunity from being charged with crimes, with the excuse being it would hurt the little guy too much. The same little guys they already ruined. In reality, it's donorism at work. As the President claimed when questioned why he didn't even try the slightest as FDR had (who even convicted foreign capitalist and historian Conrad Black admits saved capitalism from itself), "I would have liked to have done something, but it would have pissed off too many powerful people."

    You might claim your private firm doesn't get losses socialised; so how would going after the big boys be bad for your company then? Does it at all invest in buying sovereign debt for pennies on the dollar, then dun the debtor nation for the full amount? How about the trick of austerity and suffering for populations, when ruinous loans were knowingly extended, just as destabilised a Weimar facing World War I debts that wouldn't be paid off until 1989, the year the Berlin Wall fell? The subsequent wreckage led to Hitler - and all the troubles thereby in the Middle East today from the fallout of that genocide.

    Banksters, indeed. A well deserved pejorative, although it's not surprising that those with such hubris should feel offended. Blankfein doing God's work, after all, even if he does say so himself. The Devil must be in the details.

    You might claim your private firm doesn’t get losses socialised; so how would going after the big boys be bad for your company then? Does it at all invest in buying sovereign debt for pennies on the dollar, then dun the debtor nation for the full amount? How about the trick of austerity and suffering for populations, when ruinous loans were knowingly extended, just as destabilised a Weimar facing World War I debts that wouldn’t be paid off until 1989, the year the Berlin Wall fell?

    I claim it, for it is so. I have no problems with going after the “Big Boys” (the banks or their CEOs?). The issue becomes what is the exact nature of the crime they committed? Issuing loans that in hindsight the borrower could not pay? Perhaps, but that is impossible to prosecute!

    Nope, I don’t believe in buying Argentinian debt pennies on the dollar and then subjecting the country to a faulty interpretation of the law, handed by a cantankerous old judge! Same applies to the purchasers of the FNM/ FRE debt and then trying to soak taxpayers.

    I believe, nay I know, that austerity is rubbish from a macroeconomic perspective and has caused great harm to the U.S. economy, which can finance at very low rates. We should engage in (in my estimate) about $3tr financed at 2.3% on infrastructure in the U.S. over 5 years. This will add millions of jobs and has a projected return well over 9%!

    A very similar thing is happening in Europe, where Germany which immeasurably benefited from the adoption of the weak EUR currency, thus getting it out of the “sick man of Europe” condition to what has been termed Wirtschaftswunder, is entirely due to the magic of the weak currency that they could only have as a part of the Euro and suppressing wages in Germany for decades. Greece is now being subjected to insane conditions such as 50% unemployment and a 30% shrinkage in their GDP, as a sacrificial lamb to the illogical demands of austerity, which is neither socially sustainable nor economically smart!

    Balnkfein? Well he is a phenomenal trader, and taught Greece how to dress-up its balance sheet!

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    • Replies: @Fran Macadam
    http://www.unz.com/jpetras/pillage-and-class-polarization/

    Accurate. Too bad if the result is the last sentence, though.
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  • @Sam Shama
    what S2C and geokat are talking about is easily rejected by anyone who recognises the situation at hand as essentially belonging to an elementary class of problems in maths of optimisation, where a search for the optimal leads to a multiplicity of trivial solutions. The trick is in imposing correct constraints, that will lead to what is termed a"corner solution". They think quite so airily that they have "eviscerated" arguments, without any real comprehension of the objective function or constraints. The Kargil war I pointed to previously, is apropos.

    “The trick is in imposing correct constraints, that will lead to what is termed a”corner solution”. “

    What makes you so certain that the imposition of “correct constraints” must yield a “corner solution,” and not an interior optimum?

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  • @Sam Shama
    Not a bit.
    btw I think I have, within a fairly tight confidence interval, determined the issue and identity of the Econ/Physics swap. In the interest of keeping speculation within the confines of speculation, the person, Notare bene, has been jolly thorough in consigning to the proverbial dustbin, Unz's article on the HYP admissions issue. (I am sure you got the Latin clue)

    Again, in keeping with traditions in this echo-chamber, I have not seen from Unz any objective work critiquing her analyses, rather only the fully expected ad hominem that seems to be directed at commentators who provide, in actual practice, "the alternative selection", so boldly claimed in by UR on the very top line.

    On the other hand, if there is such an analyses, which does the objective needful, please inform me and I will retract my observation.

    “Again, in keeping with traditions in this echo-chamber,…”

    If you think UR is an “echo-chamber,” why do you bother posting comments here?

    This simply reinforces my suspicion that your presence here is not quite what it seems. I think your true motive for being here is identical to that of your predecessor, the M.A. in Physics – namely, to police the goy for their unseemly thought crimes!

    Why don’t you come clean and admit it? Otherwise, we have no choice but to conclude that you are obsessed with listening to echoes, echoes, echoes, …

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I simply love to listen to people as it helps me crystallise and criticise my own thoughts. UR has smart people commenting, unlike the WSJ......the echo chamber comparison is apt when it comes to Jews; its a montonic function of hatred
    , @Johnny F. Ive
    Suspicion? I thought it was obvious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

    I'm not one to talk though. I've aided in the ruin of many of a comment thread. The moderator probably hates me.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62
    "ok now why don’t you post the “facts” from your own exclusive vintage echo-chamber, you know the ones that are closed to open source edit!?"

    Here you go, Mr. 204:

    In The Six Day War and Israeli Self-Defense: Questioning the Legal Basis for Preventive War, John Quigley, a professor of international law at Ohio State University, presents a clear and compelling case that the orthodox story is wrong. Quigley’s book draws on evidence recently declassified by the four main powers involved in the lead up to the war: France, Britain, Russia, and the United States. He concludes that, contrary to the orthodox story, Israel’s army substantially outnumbered the Arab troops at the borders, and that Israel did not expect an attack. In short, Quigley asserts that Israel’s invasion of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria in 1967 cannot be justified as self-defense; Israel seized upon an opportunity to wage a war of aggression in violation of international law and in violation of the commitment Israel had made by joining the community of nations under the auspices of the UN Charter. (emphasis added) http://mondoweiss.net/2014/06/understanding-still-matters
     

    As I said at very start, your echo chamber does not extend beyond the “interpretations” of Mondoweiss and a few others. I am fully conversant with Quigley’s work, which was destroyed as a matter of international law & jurisprudence, as well as on factual basis by Rostow as well as Alan Dershowitz. btw, the Wiki article (the power of open source) discusses the controversy….

    Rostow:
    Israel’s action in June, 1967, was a reasonably proportionate defensive
    response to an armed attack. 2 The attack consisted in the first instance
    of the closing of the Straits of Tiran and a huge Arab mobilization all
    around Israel, backed by violent calls for a Holy War to destroy Israel. 3
    Given escalating guerilla infiltrations of increasing sophistication and
    intensity, and the location of the Straits of Tiran, the destruction of the
    Arab armies in the Sinai Desert by Israel was not only proportional to
    the Egyptian delict – it was the only possible military response.

    Read More
    • Replies: @KA
    "Nasser added that “your own State Department called in my Ambassador to the U.S. in April or May and warned him that there were rumors that there might be a conflict between Israel and the UAR.”

    U.S. intelligence had indeed foreseen the coming war. “The CIA was right about the timing, duration, and outcome of the war”, notes David S. Robarge in an article available on the CIA’s website.

    On May 23, Director of Central Intelligence Richard Helms presented Johnson with the CIA’s assessment that Israel could “defend successfully against simultaneous Arab attacks on all fronts … or hold on any three fronts while mounting successfully a major offensive on the fourth.”

    In an document entitled “Military Capabilities of Israel and the Arab States”, the CIA assessed that “Israel could almost certainly attain air supremacy over the Sinai Peninsula in less than 24 hours after taking the initiative or in two or three days if the UAR struck first.”

    Additionally, the CIA assessed that Nasser’s military presence in the Sinai was defensive, stating that “Armored striking forces could breach the UAR’s double defense line in the Sinai in three to four days and drive the Egyptians west of the Suez Canal in seven to nine days. Israel could contain any attacks by Syria or Jordan during this period” (emphasis added).

    --
    Neither U.S. nor Israeli intelligence assessed that there was any kind of serious threat of an Egyptian attack. On the contrary, both considered the possibility that Nasser might strike first as being extremely slim.

    The current Israeli Ambassador to the U.S., Michael B. Oren, acknowledged in his book “Six Days of War“, widely regarded as the definitive account of the war, that “By all reports Israel received from the Americans, and according to its own intelligence, Nasser had no interest in bloodshed”.

    --
    Four days before Israel’s attack on Egypt, Helms met with a senior Israeli official who expressed Israel’s intent to go to war, and that the only reason it hadn’t already struck was because of efforts by the Johnson administration to restrain both sides to prevent a violent conflict
    --
    Yitzhak Rabin, who would later become Prime Minister, told Le Monde the year following the ’67 war, “I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions which he sent to the Sinai, on May 14, would not have been sufficient to start an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”

    Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin acknowledged in a speech in 1982 that its war on Egypt in 1956 was a war of “choice” and that, “In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”

    Despite its total lack of sustainability from the documentary record, and despite such admissions from top Israeli officials, it is virtually obligatory for commentators in contemporary mainstream accounts of the ’67 war to describe Israel’s attack on Egypt as “preemptive

    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/07/04/israels-attack-on-egypt-in-june-67-was-not-preemptive/

    a
    , @geokat62

    "... your echo chamber does not extend beyond the “interpretations” of Mondoweiss and a few others."
     
    Does Yitzhak Rabin qualify as a member of the echoe chamber?:

    [A]ccording to even Yitzhak Rabin, who was then the Chief of Staff of the Israel Defense Forces, "We did not think that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to Sinai on May 14 would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it."


    "I am fully conversant with Quigley’s work, which was destroyed as a matter of international law & jurisprudence, as well as on factual basis by Rostow as well as Alan Dershowitz."
     
    Could you be so kind and inform us as to which specific facts Prof. Quigley got wrong?
    , @KA
    " closing of the Straits of Tiran" is heard nowadays . But No one from Israel leadership made this claim as a reason. May be it was.
    Now one can understand that why an actual blockade imposed by Israel from all directions immidiayrly after the election on Gaza let alone just to the sea could generate the appropriate responses from Palestinian but which could never be understood by the neocons other than in the terms of labeling Palestinian as irrational,suicidal,fanatic,primitive sufferring from hatred and rage.
    , @annamaria
    "..Rostow as well as Alan Dershowitz.."
    You mean that these two gentlemen are known for their objectivity re Israel? Come on...
    Here is something on the international law by Mr. Rostow: "Israeli settlements are more than legitimate." http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/24/challenging-the-long-held-notion-that-israeli-settlements-are-illegal/
    And here is something about Mr. Dershowitz the Lawyer: "The Jihad of Alan Dershowitz." http://www.counterpunch.org/2004/09/30/the-jihad-of-alan-dershowitz/
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  • @Sam Shama
    @SolontoCroesus
    I have been reading this thread, and it seems to me that having more nukes is worse than having fewer. Its pretty similar to when you have a bigger pile of 4th of July fireworks, the chances of an accident has to go up.

    I mean your position is also the same as giving a gun to everybody in the U.S. to lower gun related violence! How does that work? (Yeah I know all the NRA b*shit arguments)

    I've been to the middle east (Saudi, Dubai and Tel Aviv) and what I can say is that the cultures are pretty different.

    So I am with Sam Shama on this. Makes zero sense to put the bomb within the reaches of Iran. Did you forget what they did to our embassy?

    what S2C and geokat are talking about is easily rejected by anyone who recognises the situation at hand as essentially belonging to an elementary class of problems in maths of optimisation, where a search for the optimal leads to a multiplicity of trivial solutions. The trick is in imposing correct constraints, that will lead to what is termed a”corner solution”. They think quite so airily that they have “eviscerated” arguments, without any real comprehension of the objective function or constraints. The Kargil war I pointed to previously, is apropos.

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    • Replies: @geokat62

    "The trick is in imposing correct constraints, that will lead to what is termed a”corner solution”. "
     
    What makes you so certain that the imposition of "correct constraints" must yield a "corner solution," and not an interior optimum?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama

    Your political stance appears to be unreformed Likudnik neocon Wall Streeter. It may serve a policy purpose some may believe serves their higher cause, it is true, but that is about the truth of it.
     
    Dear Fran:
    I am surprised you did not add unrepentant!

    I ask in all seriousness: I see all these labels bandied about these days, and while I suppose I do understand the context in which some are applied, I strenuously object to the mischaracterisation of my analyses. Should you re-read my words,


    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/global-financialization-2015-the-state-of-play/#comment-980185

    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/the-fed-cornered/#comment-979054

    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/global-financialization-2015-the-state-of-play/#comment-977257

    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/global-financialization-2015-the-state-of-play/#comment-976602

     

    you cannot fail to note that I was essentially analysing current economic conditions. You will further note that I have agreed with you that our system requires reform: for the issue of inequality cannot simply be brushed off! I have also said that I believe that regulatory changes and tax policies need to be revised. Allow me to be rather more concrete. It is perfectly clear to me that the tax rates applicable to dividends and long-term capital gains need to be increased to the marginal rates paid by any individual, i.e., a Mitt Romney or a Warren Buffet (and he agrees), should not pay 15% whereas an ordinary income earner pays on the average 40%!

    I suspect you took exception to my quoting the improving national income statistics that did not reflect the realities in many middle class neighbourhoods in the U.S., thus again underscoring the real urgency to tackle inequality. You also spoke of banksters; I say in this context, that this being a nation of laws, one can only prosecute when an alleged crime is prosecutable. I also provided a list of actions undertaken and successfully completed by the SEC. Again, one supposes that if a large scale change in common law is the goal, that ought to be the premise of elections. (on a bit of a sidenote, since you invoked the Wall Streeter pejorative, I do not work at a bank, but rather in a private capital enterprise, which does not socialise its losses! All of this is to say, that I firmly believe in what I say, and strive to practice what I preach. I do resent the labels!)

    To fold in some of what S2C said about Greenspan, I find entirely irrelevant. Greenspan is a bit of an extreme Ayn Randian, but that has no bearing at all in gdp and labour data! Here is a simple thought experiment for those who do not analyse Fed policies for a living: If you object to what the Fed has been engaged in since 2008, think what you would have done if banks failed, ATM transactions frozen, credit cards frozen, etc. etc. You might say that one should have allowed banks to fail en masse, thereby subjecting the "banksters" to poetic justice, you might have a point. Yet it would fail to save the citizen from incredible harm!


    anyway enough said!

    “If you object to what the Fed has been engaged in since 2008,…”

    What we object to is what the Fed has been engaged in since the mid 90s – namely, cheap money that resulted in numerous asset bubbles that preceded and precipitated the subprime fiasco!

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  • @Sam Shama

    Your political stance appears to be unreformed Likudnik neocon Wall Streeter. It may serve a policy purpose some may believe serves their higher cause, it is true, but that is about the truth of it.
     
    Dear Fran:
    I am surprised you did not add unrepentant!

    I ask in all seriousness: I see all these labels bandied about these days, and while I suppose I do understand the context in which some are applied, I strenuously object to the mischaracterisation of my analyses. Should you re-read my words,


    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/global-financialization-2015-the-state-of-play/#comment-980185

    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/the-fed-cornered/#comment-979054

    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/global-financialization-2015-the-state-of-play/#comment-977257

    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/global-financialization-2015-the-state-of-play/#comment-976602

     

    you cannot fail to note that I was essentially analysing current economic conditions. You will further note that I have agreed with you that our system requires reform: for the issue of inequality cannot simply be brushed off! I have also said that I believe that regulatory changes and tax policies need to be revised. Allow me to be rather more concrete. It is perfectly clear to me that the tax rates applicable to dividends and long-term capital gains need to be increased to the marginal rates paid by any individual, i.e., a Mitt Romney or a Warren Buffet (and he agrees), should not pay 15% whereas an ordinary income earner pays on the average 40%!

    I suspect you took exception to my quoting the improving national income statistics that did not reflect the realities in many middle class neighbourhoods in the U.S., thus again underscoring the real urgency to tackle inequality. You also spoke of banksters; I say in this context, that this being a nation of laws, one can only prosecute when an alleged crime is prosecutable. I also provided a list of actions undertaken and successfully completed by the SEC. Again, one supposes that if a large scale change in common law is the goal, that ought to be the premise of elections. (on a bit of a sidenote, since you invoked the Wall Streeter pejorative, I do not work at a bank, but rather in a private capital enterprise, which does not socialise its losses! All of this is to say, that I firmly believe in what I say, and strive to practice what I preach. I do resent the labels!)

    To fold in some of what S2C said about Greenspan, I find entirely irrelevant. Greenspan is a bit of an extreme Ayn Randian, but that has no bearing at all in gdp and labour data! Here is a simple thought experiment for those who do not analyse Fed policies for a living: If you object to what the Fed has been engaged in since 2008, think what you would have done if banks failed, ATM transactions frozen, credit cards frozen, etc. etc. You might say that one should have allowed banks to fail en masse, thereby subjecting the "banksters" to poetic justice, you might have a point. Yet it would fail to save the citizen from incredible harm!


    anyway enough said!

    Basically the objection to the bankster label, first applied to that cabal of Wall Street Firsters by a government regulator in the wake of The Great Depression they caused, is that, being “too big to fail” no matter the otherwise criminal behavior, they were therefore “too big to jail.” But last time I looked, identified members of the Mafia are identified as gangsters, even if they’ve managed to evade being charged or convicted. It’s quite the protection racket to achieve immunity from being charged with crimes, with the excuse being it would hurt the little guy too much. The same little guys they already ruined. In reality, it’s donorism at work. As the President claimed when questioned why he didn’t even try the slightest as FDR had (who even convicted foreign capitalist and historian Conrad Black admits saved capitalism from itself), “I would have liked to have done something, but it would have pissed off too many powerful people.”

    You might claim your private firm doesn’t get losses socialised; so how would going after the big boys be bad for your company then? Does it at all invest in buying sovereign debt for pennies on the dollar, then dun the debtor nation for the full amount? How about the trick of austerity and suffering for populations, when ruinous loans were knowingly extended, just as destabilised a Weimar facing World War I debts that wouldn’t be paid off until 1989, the year the Berlin Wall fell? The subsequent wreckage led to Hitler – and all the troubles thereby in the Middle East today from the fallout of that genocide.

    Banksters, indeed. A well deserved pejorative, although it’s not surprising that those with such hubris should feel offended. Blankfein doing God’s work, after all, even if he does say so himself. The Devil must be in the details.

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama

    You might claim your private firm doesn’t get losses socialised; so how would going after the big boys be bad for your company then? Does it at all invest in buying sovereign debt for pennies on the dollar, then dun the debtor nation for the full amount? How about the trick of austerity and suffering for populations, when ruinous loans were knowingly extended, just as destabilised a Weimar facing World War I debts that wouldn’t be paid off until 1989, the year the Berlin Wall fell?
     
    I claim it, for it is so. I have no problems with going after the "Big Boys" (the banks or their CEOs?). The issue becomes what is the exact nature of the crime they committed? Issuing loans that in hindsight the borrower could not pay? Perhaps, but that is impossible to prosecute!

    Nope, I don't believe in buying Argentinian debt pennies on the dollar and then subjecting the country to a faulty interpretation of the law, handed by a cantankerous old judge! Same applies to the purchasers of the FNM/ FRE debt and then trying to soak taxpayers.

    I believe, nay I know, that austerity is rubbish from a macroeconomic perspective and has caused great harm to the U.S. economy, which can finance at very low rates. We should engage in (in my estimate) about $3tr financed at 2.3% on infrastructure in the U.S. over 5 years. This will add millions of jobs and has a projected return well over 9%!

    A very similar thing is happening in Europe, where Germany which immeasurably benefited from the adoption of the weak EUR currency, thus getting it out of the "sick man of Europe" condition to what has been termed Wirtschaftswunder, is entirely due to the magic of the weak currency that they could only have as a part of the Euro and suppressing wages in Germany for decades. Greece is now being subjected to insane conditions such as 50% unemployment and a 30% shrinkage in their GDP, as a sacrificial lamb to the illogical demands of austerity, which is neither socially sustainable nor economically smart!


    Balnkfein? Well he is a phenomenal trader, and taught Greece how to dress-up its balance sheet!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

    ok now why don't you post the "facts" from your own exclusive vintage echo-chamber, you know the ones that are closed to open source edit!?

    “ok now why don’t you post the “facts” from your own exclusive vintage echo-chamber, you know the ones that are closed to open source edit!?”

    Here you go, Mr. 204:

    In The Six Day War and Israeli Self-Defense: Questioning the Legal Basis for Preventive War, John Quigley, a professor of international law at Ohio State University, presents a clear and compelling case that the orthodox story is wrong. Quigley’s book draws on evidence recently declassified by the four main powers involved in the lead up to the war: France, Britain, Russia, and the United States. He concludes that, contrary to the orthodox story, Israel’s army substantially outnumbered the Arab troops at the borders, and that Israel did not expect an attack. In short, Quigley asserts that Israel’s invasion of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria in 1967 cannot be justified as self-defense; Israel seized upon an opportunity to wage a war of aggression in violation of international law and in violation of the commitment Israel had made by joining the community of nations under the auspices of the UN Charter. (emphasis added) http://mondoweiss.net/2014/06/understanding-still-matters

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    As I said at very start, your echo chamber does not extend beyond the "interpretations" of Mondoweiss and a few others. I am fully conversant with Quigley's work, which was destroyed as a matter of international law & jurisprudence, as well as on factual basis by Rostow as well as Alan Dershowitz. btw, the Wiki article (the power of open source) discusses the controversy....

    Rostow:
    Israel's action in June, 1967, was a reasonably proportionate defensive
    response to an armed attack. 2 The attack consisted in the first instance
    of the closing of the Straits of Tiran and a huge Arab mobilization all
    around Israel, backed by violent calls for a Holy War to destroy Israel. 3
    Given escalating guerilla infiltrations of increasing sophistication and
    intensity, and the location of the Straits of Tiran, the destruction of the
    Arab armies in the Sinai Desert by Israel was not only proportional to
    the Egyptian delict - it was the only possible military response.
     
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  • @geokat62
    "The 1967 war was precipitated by Egyptian mobilisation in Israel’s southern border."

    This is not factually true. This myth has been debunked years ago. As you well know, this was a pretext for going to war when the Israelis felt they were in the best position to defeat Egypt.

    Keep trying!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

    ok now why don’t you post the “facts” from your own exclusive vintage echo-chamber, you know the ones that are closed to open source edit!?

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62
    "ok now why don’t you post the “facts” from your own exclusive vintage echo-chamber, you know the ones that are closed to open source edit!?"

    Here you go, Mr. 204:

    In The Six Day War and Israeli Self-Defense: Questioning the Legal Basis for Preventive War, John Quigley, a professor of international law at Ohio State University, presents a clear and compelling case that the orthodox story is wrong. Quigley’s book draws on evidence recently declassified by the four main powers involved in the lead up to the war: France, Britain, Russia, and the United States. He concludes that, contrary to the orthodox story, Israel’s army substantially outnumbered the Arab troops at the borders, and that Israel did not expect an attack. In short, Quigley asserts that Israel’s invasion of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria in 1967 cannot be justified as self-defense; Israel seized upon an opportunity to wage a war of aggression in violation of international law and in violation of the commitment Israel had made by joining the community of nations under the auspices of the UN Charter. (emphasis added) http://mondoweiss.net/2014/06/understanding-still-matters
     
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “The 1967 war was precipitated by Egyptian mobilisation in Israel’s southern border.”

    This is not factually true. This myth has been debunked years ago. As you well know, this was a pretext for going to war when the Israelis felt they were in the best position to defeat Egypt.

    Keep trying!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

    ok now why don't you post the "facts" from your own exclusive vintage echo-chamber, you know the ones that are closed to open source edit!?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @dfordoom

    You could be right of course, yet I hesitate to extrapolate from European experience and apply to the Middle East.
     
    I'm hesitant about the idea as well but I just don't know what else would work. It's worked with India and Pakistan - they haven't exactly learnt to love one another but at least they haven't had a major war for more than forty years.

    It's worth considering that if Israel and Egypt had both had nukes in 1967 the Six-Day War would probably not have happened, and the Six-Day War was the first fateful step in the destabilisation of the region.

    I understand your hesitancy. Actually India and Pakistan came very, very close to a nuclear confrontation in 1999

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War

    Can you imagine what might have happened, if for example Iran and Iraq had nukes when they waged war during 1980-88?!

    The 1967 war was precipitated by Egyptian mobilisation in Israel’s southern border. Israel engaged in a pre-emptive strike and destroyed the Egyptian air force. This may not not have happened, as you say, if both parties were nuclear, then again witness what happened between India and Pakistan in 1999! (Actually from what I understand, and it is certainly NOT official, it was in 1999 that the USA took de facto control of Pakistani nuclear assets)

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  • @Fran Macadam
    Mr. Shama can cite all the statistics he wants, but I'm afraid that for many of us, to believe him, we'd have to ignore what our "lying" eyes present to us, right here in our own neighborhoods, among our friends and community members.

    In this middle class neighborhood, on one street alone (this one) there are seven foreclosed single family homes. The bank, Wells Fargo, was certainly bailed out and both wrote off and profited. I guess that's Mr. Shama's full recovery and he can cite some balance sheet to prove that the wealth of banksters is the health of the nation.

    Food banks are under pressure as never before here, demand having grown exponentially. The number of homeless is a visible sight even in areas they weren't seen before. There are homeless camps outside city limits.

    Inability for many to find employment, or any as good as they previously had, is endemic. Several middle aged men in this community committed suicide after long term unemployment.

    The companies that used to provide even high tech employment moved production offshore, and the skeleton crews were moved to become outsourced subcontractors with no benefits.

    So many university graduates we know moved back in with parents - no work in their field and often none at all. Underemployment at best.

    An answer for some I know has been becoming disabled and collecting social security that way. Sad because they could work, but there is no work.

    Savers all their lives now experiencing hardship because the bailed out banksters pay no interest on their savings while inflation to say the least is understated by Mr. Shama's unchallengeable statistics.

    Public services from the city decline because with all the empty storefronts and foreclosures, the budgets just aren't there from the shrunken tax base.

    I could add more, much more, but you get the idea. Of course, the real experiences are merely anecdotal and to be disbelieved, compared to Mr. Shama's statistics, right there in solid black and white, backed by the full faith of the banking industry and its bureau of employees in government. Although there are competing statistical analyses.

    Why the self-styled genius of a boasted IQ of 204 is spending time to tell us we are really eating cake, and all is well with neocon control, Wall Street depredation is good for us and current endless war policy the cat's meow, instead of engaging in more profitable exercises for himself, is a conundrum.

    It really does fit the bill for propaganda.

    Best Fran comment ever. Thanks for reminding us of the IQ. I’d forgotten that.

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  • @Fran Macadam
    Everybody's entitled to his own statistics, just like opinions. Like MacNamara's, ultimately they claim to say everything and prove nothing except to those who cite them selectively and inappropriately. In this way, they are much like the tautological arguments cited by "race realists," Holocaust Deniers and those seeing the Jews as the source of all mankind's ills, ideologies impervious to reason - for those with high IQ, colossally invincible ignorance. Like Jesuits or madmen do, they can be cited to offer irrefutable proof that the moon is made of green cheese, or even Cheez Whiz if necessary.

    Your political stance appears to be unreformed Likudnik neocon Wall Streeter. It may serve a policy purpose some may believe serves their higher cause, it is true, but that is about the truth of it.

    Your political stance appears to be unreformed Likudnik neocon Wall Streeter. It may serve a policy purpose some may believe serves their higher cause, it is true, but that is about the truth of it.

    Dear Fran:
    I am surprised you did not add unrepentant!

    I ask in all seriousness: I see all these labels bandied about these days, and while I suppose I do understand the context in which some are applied, I strenuously object to the mischaracterisation of my analyses. Should you re-read my words,

    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/global-financialization-2015-the-state-of-play/#comment-980185

    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/the-fed-cornered/#comment-979054

    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/global-financialization-2015-the-state-of-play/#comment-977257

    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/global-financialization-2015-the-state-of-play/#comment-976602

    you cannot fail to note that I was essentially analysing current economic conditions. You will further note that I have agreed with you that our system requires reform: for the issue of inequality cannot simply be brushed off! I have also said that I believe that regulatory changes and tax policies need to be revised. Allow me to be rather more concrete. It is perfectly clear to me that the tax rates applicable to dividends and long-term capital gains need to be increased to the marginal rates paid by any individual, i.e., a Mitt Romney or a Warren Buffet (and he agrees), should not pay 15% whereas an ordinary income earner pays on the average 40%!

    I suspect you took exception to my quoting the improving national income statistics that did not reflect the realities in many middle class neighbourhoods in the U.S., thus again underscoring the real urgency to tackle inequality. You also spoke of banksters; I say in this context, that this being a nation of laws, one can only prosecute when an alleged crime is prosecutable. I also provided a list of actions undertaken and successfully completed by the SEC. Again, one supposes that if a large scale change in common law is the goal, that ought to be the premise of elections. (on a bit of a sidenote, since you invoked the Wall Streeter pejorative, I do not work at a bank, but rather in a private capital enterprise, which does not socialise its losses! All of this is to say, that I firmly believe in what I say, and strive to practice what I preach. I do resent the labels!)

    To fold in some of what S2C said about Greenspan, I find entirely irrelevant. Greenspan is a bit of an extreme Ayn Randian, but that has no bearing at all in gdp and labour data! Here is a simple thought experiment for those who do not analyse Fed policies for a living: If you object to what the Fed has been engaged in since 2008, think what you would have done if banks failed, ATM transactions frozen, credit cards frozen, etc. etc. You might say that one should have allowed banks to fail en masse, thereby subjecting the “banksters” to poetic justice, you might have a point. Yet it would fail to save the citizen from incredible harm!

    anyway enough said!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Fran Macadam
    Basically the objection to the bankster label, first applied to that cabal of Wall Street Firsters by a government regulator in the wake of The Great Depression they caused, is that, being "too big to fail" no matter the otherwise criminal behavior, they were therefore "too big to jail." But last time I looked, identified members of the Mafia are identified as gangsters, even if they've managed to evade being charged or convicted. It's quite the protection racket to achieve immunity from being charged with crimes, with the excuse being it would hurt the little guy too much. The same little guys they already ruined. In reality, it's donorism at work. As the President claimed when questioned why he didn't even try the slightest as FDR had (who even convicted foreign capitalist and historian Conrad Black admits saved capitalism from itself), "I would have liked to have done something, but it would have pissed off too many powerful people."

    You might claim your private firm doesn't get losses socialised; so how would going after the big boys be bad for your company then? Does it at all invest in buying sovereign debt for pennies on the dollar, then dun the debtor nation for the full amount? How about the trick of austerity and suffering for populations, when ruinous loans were knowingly extended, just as destabilised a Weimar facing World War I debts that wouldn't be paid off until 1989, the year the Berlin Wall fell? The subsequent wreckage led to Hitler - and all the troubles thereby in the Middle East today from the fallout of that genocide.

    Banksters, indeed. A well deserved pejorative, although it's not surprising that those with such hubris should feel offended. Blankfein doing God's work, after all, even if he does say so himself. The Devil must be in the details.

    , @geokat62
    "If you object to what the Fed has been engaged in since 2008,..."

    What we object to is what the Fed has been engaged in since the mid 90s - namely, cheap money that resulted in numerous asset bubbles that preceded and precipitated the subprime fiasco!

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama

    Perhaps there’d be a better chance of peace in the Middle East if there were more nuclear powers in the region.
     
    You could be right of course, yet I hesitate to extrapolate from European experience and apply to the Middle East. The ME is not the American MW! That's not a flip remark, the ME and its instability is utterly unpredictable, and setting aside discussions about what the root cause is, we simply have to weigh the risks against benefits. If Iran gets the bomb, surely Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq will follow rapidly, perhaps in that sequence. The various sectarian divisions in the ME cauldron exist at very high base temperatures and it takes only a small spark to set off Armageddon.

    You could be right of course, yet I hesitate to extrapolate from European experience and apply to the Middle East.

    I’m hesitant about the idea as well but I just don’t know what else would work. It’s worked with India and Pakistan – they haven’t exactly learnt to love one another but at least they haven’t had a major war for more than forty years.

    It’s worth considering that if Israel and Egypt had both had nukes in 1967 the Six-Day War would probably not have happened, and the Six-Day War was the first fateful step in the destabilisation of the region.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I understand your hesitancy. Actually India and Pakistan came very, very close to a nuclear confrontation in 1999

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War


    Can you imagine what might have happened, if for example Iran and Iraq had nukes when they waged war during 1980-88?!

    The 1967 war was precipitated by Egyptian mobilisation in Israel's southern border. Israel engaged in a pre-emptive strike and destroyed the Egyptian air force. This may not not have happened, as you say, if both parties were nuclear, then again witness what happened between India and Pakistan in 1999! (Actually from what I understand, and it is certainly NOT official, it was in 1999 that the USA took de facto control of Pakistani nuclear assets)

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    This makes little sense to me, again its like the gun debate, if every country in the world had nukes how is that safer in the long run? It just increases the chances that someone might use it, accident or otherwise. You can't get US, Russia, China, India, Israel, South Africa, Pakistan, North Korea to disarm. So now you want EVERYBODY to have a nuke. Great!

    The Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty is the most important treaty since the end of WWII. It’s tripart premise and promise was quite simple:

    Non-Proliferation:
    Non-nuclear-weapon States (NNWS) agree not to import, build or otherwise acquire nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices. NWS are obliged not to transfer nuclear weapons or explosive devices to NNWS. Any group of states are permitted to establish nuclear-weapon-free zones in their respective territories. [USA has failed to appropriately comply with that requirement]

    Disarmament:
    Article VI of the NPT obliges all Parties to the Treaty to undertake “to pursue negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament, and on a Treaty on general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control”. This is the world’s only legally binding obligation on NWS to reduce and ultimately eliminate their nuclear weapons. . . .

    Peaceful Uses:
    All State Parties to the Treaty agree to full exchanges of equipment, materials and scientific and technological information for peaceful uses of nuclear energy. NNWS parties must accept and comply with International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safeguards as a condition for peaceful nuclear co-operation. The IAEA uses safeguard activities to verify that States honour their commitments not to use nuclear programs for nuclear weapons. IAEA safeguards are “based on an assessment of the correctness and completeness of the State’s declarations [to the Agency] concerning nuclear material and nuclear-related activities.” The NPT encourages international co-operation for peaceful uses of nuclear energy, from medical diagnostics and treatments to power production. Non-nuclear-weapon States (NNWS) agree not to import, build or otherwise acquire nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices. NWS are obliged not to transfer nuclear weapons or explosive devices to NNWS. Any group of states are permitted to establish nuclear-weapon-free zones in their respective territories.
    http://www.international.gc.ca/arms-armes/nuclear-nucleaire/npt-tnp.aspx?lang=eng

    Israel has not signed on the NPT although it enjoys benefits of nuclear technology sharing — one more instance of Israel demanding treatment as an exceptional [read: rogue] entity all the while disdaining the minimum demands of every other civilized state.

    Iran has been a member of NPT and its nuclear facilities have been monitored by IAEA — on some occasions IAEA has betrayed the confidentiality required of it, resulting in the deaths of Iranian nuclear scientists.

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  • @Sam Shama
    Believe what you wish to satisfy personal needs, it still leaves rather unaddressed, the important issue of missing objective analyses, something you have clearly stated as anathema to you ...

    ..Mr. Shama can cite all the statistics he wants.....
     

    the important issue of missing objective analyses,

    While he was in his heyday, Alan Greenspan produced hours and hours of complex “objective analyses,” replete with esoteric convolutions.

    It was based on a flawed and Randy theory, as Greenspan himself conceded, not so much grudgingly as defiantly. Much of the US economy suffered; Greenspan and “too big to fail” banks did not.

    Given the choice between “objective analysis” based on what may well be another “flawed theory,” I’ll go with my own “lying eyes” — the evidence I (or Fran Macadam, above) see of what is happening on the street.

    Statistics have zero nutritional value.

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  • @Sam Shama
    @SolontoCroesus
    I have been reading this thread, and it seems to me that having more nukes is worse than having fewer. Its pretty similar to when you have a bigger pile of 4th of July fireworks, the chances of an accident has to go up.

    I mean your position is also the same as giving a gun to everybody in the U.S. to lower gun related violence! How does that work? (Yeah I know all the NRA b*shit arguments)

    I've been to the middle east (Saudi, Dubai and Tel Aviv) and what I can say is that the cultures are pretty different.

    So I am with Sam Shama on this. Makes zero sense to put the bomb within the reaches of Iran. Did you forget what they did to our embassy?

    I don’t believe StoC advocated for more nuclear weapons in the ME; geokat62 expressed the appropriate position — either nobody has nukes or anybody is entitled to nukes.

    The current situation, with Israel the only unregulated and rogue nuclear weaponized entity in the region, is not sustainable.

    If you have been reading this thread you will have noticed that as far back as 1995 the other states in the region were promised a conference to create a Nuclear-Free Zone in the region, which was (obviously) aimed at disarming Israel, it being the only nuclear weapons state in the region, then as now. That promise has not yet been fulfilled because Israel and its enabler, the USA, would not permit it to be fulfilled.

    Refer also to the link to Israel’s Periphery Doctrine. Yossi Alpher states in bold letters that it is not likely that Israel will change its behavior: the original Periphery Doctrine held that Israel would partner with, among others, Iran. That partnership having failed, and Israel having not yet learned how to get along with its neighbors, Alpher stated that (rather than examining its own rogue behavior) Israel is forming a new Periphery Doctrine, this time by coordinating with, arming for, and carrying out violence and destruction with Egypt and Saudi Arabia against Iran and Palestine and any other indigenous people of the region that demand sovereignty and resist Israeli and US belligerence.

    In other words, it is not likely that the effort to bring rogue Israel out of the cold that has failed over the past 40 years will succeed, absent some dramatic event or, tragically, violence.

    The situation that exists, therefore, is as if Iranians and the Palestinians — and Libya, Syria, Lebanon — must remain the weapons-free Mother Emmanuel Church, and the Dyllan Roof/Israels of the world must be coddled and given “security guarantees” and more and more weapons.

    Does that make sense to you?

    How would you resolve that dire situation?

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  • @geokat62

    "So I am with Sam Shama on this. Makes zero sense to put the bomb within the reaches of Iran. Did you forget what they did to our embassy?"
     
    If the Israelis are not willing to disarm, just as Iraq, Syria, and Iran were and are required to do so, this would leave them as the sole nuclear power in the region, enabling them to lord it over their adversaries. If they do agree to disarm, that's when the others should be required to disarm as well. Thus, the most stable scenario is if either everyone or no one has nuclear weapons in the region!

    This makes little sense to me, again its like the gun debate, if every country in the world had nukes how is that safer in the long run? It just increases the chances that someone might use it, accident or otherwise. You can’t get US, Russia, China, India, Israel, South Africa, Pakistan, North Korea to disarm. So now you want EVERYBODY to have a nuke. Great!

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    The Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty is the most important treaty since the end of WWII. It's tripart premise and promise was quite simple:

    Non-Proliferation:
    Non-nuclear-weapon States (NNWS) agree not to import, build or otherwise acquire nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices. NWS are obliged not to transfer nuclear weapons or explosive devices to NNWS. Any group of states are permitted to establish nuclear-weapon-free zones in their respective territories. [USA has failed to appropriately comply with that requirement]

    Disarmament:
    Article VI of the NPT obliges all Parties to the Treaty to undertake "to pursue negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament, and on a Treaty on general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control". This is the world’s only legally binding obligation on NWS to reduce and ultimately eliminate their nuclear weapons. . . .

    Peaceful Uses:
    All State Parties to the Treaty agree to full exchanges of equipment, materials and scientific and technological information for peaceful uses of nuclear energy. NNWS parties must accept and comply with International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safeguards as a condition for peaceful nuclear co-operation. The IAEA uses safeguard activities to verify that States honour their commitments not to use nuclear programs for nuclear weapons. IAEA safeguards are "based on an assessment of the correctness and completeness of the State's declarations [to the Agency] concerning nuclear material and nuclear-related activities." The NPT encourages international co-operation for peaceful uses of nuclear energy, from medical diagnostics and treatments to power production. Non-nuclear-weapon States (NNWS) agree not to import, build or otherwise acquire nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices. NWS are obliged not to transfer nuclear weapons or explosive devices to NNWS. Any group of states are permitted to establish nuclear-weapon-free zones in their respective territories.
    http://www.international.gc.ca/arms-armes/nuclear-nucleaire/npt-tnp.aspx?lang=eng
     
    Israel has not signed on the NPT although it enjoys benefits of nuclear technology sharing -- one more instance of Israel demanding treatment as an exceptional [read: rogue] entity all the while disdaining the minimum demands of every other civilized state.

    Iran has been a member of NPT and its nuclear facilities have been monitored by IAEA -- on some occasions IAEA has betrayed the confidentiality required of it, resulting in the deaths of Iranian nuclear scientists.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Believe what you wish to satisfy personal needs, it still leaves rather unaddressed, the important issue of missing objective analyses, something you have clearly stated as anathema to you ...

    ..Mr. Shama can cite all the statistics he wants.....
     

    Everybody’s entitled to his own statistics, just like opinions. Like MacNamara’s, ultimately they claim to say everything and prove nothing except to those who cite them selectively and inappropriately. In this way, they are much like the tautological arguments cited by “race realists,” Holocaust Deniers and those seeing the Jews as the source of all mankind’s ills, ideologies impervious to reason – for those with high IQ, colossally invincible ignorance. Like Jesuits or madmen do, they can be cited to offer irrefutable proof that the moon is made of green cheese, or even Cheez Whiz if necessary.

    Your political stance appears to be unreformed Likudnik neocon Wall Streeter. It may serve a policy purpose some may believe serves their higher cause, it is true, but that is about the truth of it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama

    Your political stance appears to be unreformed Likudnik neocon Wall Streeter. It may serve a policy purpose some may believe serves their higher cause, it is true, but that is about the truth of it.
     
    Dear Fran:
    I am surprised you did not add unrepentant!

    I ask in all seriousness: I see all these labels bandied about these days, and while I suppose I do understand the context in which some are applied, I strenuously object to the mischaracterisation of my analyses. Should you re-read my words,


    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/global-financialization-2015-the-state-of-play/#comment-980185

    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/the-fed-cornered/#comment-979054

    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/global-financialization-2015-the-state-of-play/#comment-977257

    http://www.unz.com/mhudson/global-financialization-2015-the-state-of-play/#comment-976602

     

    you cannot fail to note that I was essentially analysing current economic conditions. You will further note that I have agreed with you that our system requires reform: for the issue of inequality cannot simply be brushed off! I have also said that I believe that regulatory changes and tax policies need to be revised. Allow me to be rather more concrete. It is perfectly clear to me that the tax rates applicable to dividends and long-term capital gains need to be increased to the marginal rates paid by any individual, i.e., a Mitt Romney or a Warren Buffet (and he agrees), should not pay 15% whereas an ordinary income earner pays on the average 40%!

    I suspect you took exception to my quoting the improving national income statistics that did not reflect the realities in many middle class neighbourhoods in the U.S., thus again underscoring the real urgency to tackle inequality. You also spoke of banksters; I say in this context, that this being a nation of laws, one can only prosecute when an alleged crime is prosecutable. I also provided a list of actions undertaken and successfully completed by the SEC. Again, one supposes that if a large scale change in common law is the goal, that ought to be the premise of elections. (on a bit of a sidenote, since you invoked the Wall Streeter pejorative, I do not work at a bank, but rather in a private capital enterprise, which does not socialise its losses! All of this is to say, that I firmly believe in what I say, and strive to practice what I preach. I do resent the labels!)

    To fold in some of what S2C said about Greenspan, I find entirely irrelevant. Greenspan is a bit of an extreme Ayn Randian, but that has no bearing at all in gdp and labour data! Here is a simple thought experiment for those who do not analyse Fed policies for a living: If you object to what the Fed has been engaged in since 2008, think what you would have done if banks failed, ATM transactions frozen, credit cards frozen, etc. etc. You might say that one should have allowed banks to fail en masse, thereby subjecting the "banksters" to poetic justice, you might have a point. Yet it would fail to save the citizen from incredible harm!


    anyway enough said!

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    @SolontoCroesus
    I have been reading this thread, and it seems to me that having more nukes is worse than having fewer. Its pretty similar to when you have a bigger pile of 4th of July fireworks, the chances of an accident has to go up.

    I mean your position is also the same as giving a gun to everybody in the U.S. to lower gun related violence! How does that work? (Yeah I know all the NRA b*shit arguments)

    I've been to the middle east (Saudi, Dubai and Tel Aviv) and what I can say is that the cultures are pretty different.

    So I am with Sam Shama on this. Makes zero sense to put the bomb within the reaches of Iran. Did you forget what they did to our embassy?

    The cultures are indeed different. But the differences have been easily bridged when, for example, the US, Saudis (9/11?), and Israelis (USSLiberty?) see benefits of cooperation. (These benefits are not always mutual, though).
    Iran has been suggesting nuclear-weapon-free Middle East. Do you know any country in the Middle East that has nuclear weapons and does not want to cooperate with the International Atomic Energy Agency? A hint: this country is not Iran.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62
    "Sam Shama — save your boilerplate for a less informed audience; folks here eviscerated bogus arguments like yours years ago."

    I love it when someone calls a spade a spade!

    Right

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Fran Macadam
    The gentleman doth protest too much; no daylight between those two, perhaps literally as well as figuratively, dalliance and alliance both.

    Believe what you wish to satisfy personal needs, it still leaves rather unaddressed, the important issue of missing objective analyses, something you have clearly stated as anathema to you …

    ..Mr. Shama can cite all the statistics he wants…..

    Read More
    • Replies: @Fran Macadam
    Everybody's entitled to his own statistics, just like opinions. Like MacNamara's, ultimately they claim to say everything and prove nothing except to those who cite them selectively and inappropriately. In this way, they are much like the tautological arguments cited by "race realists," Holocaust Deniers and those seeing the Jews as the source of all mankind's ills, ideologies impervious to reason - for those with high IQ, colossally invincible ignorance. Like Jesuits or madmen do, they can be cited to offer irrefutable proof that the moon is made of green cheese, or even Cheez Whiz if necessary.

    Your political stance appears to be unreformed Likudnik neocon Wall Streeter. It may serve a policy purpose some may believe serves their higher cause, it is true, but that is about the truth of it.
    , @SolontoCroesus

    the important issue of missing objective analyses,
     
    While he was in his heyday, Alan Greenspan produced hours and hours of complex "objective analyses," replete with esoteric convolutions.

    It was based on a flawed and Randy theory, as Greenspan himself conceded, not so much grudgingly as defiantly. Much of the US economy suffered; Greenspan and "too big to fail" banks did not.

    Given the choice between "objective analysis" based on what may well be another "flawed theory," I'll go with my own "lying eyes" -- the evidence I (or Fran Macadam, above) see of what is happening on the street.

    Statistics have zero nutritional value.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Not a bit.
    btw I think I have, within a fairly tight confidence interval, determined the issue and identity of the Econ/Physics swap. In the interest of keeping speculation within the confines of speculation, the person, Notare bene, has been jolly thorough in consigning to the proverbial dustbin, Unz's article on the HYP admissions issue. (I am sure you got the Latin clue)

    Again, in keeping with traditions in this echo-chamber, I have not seen from Unz any objective work critiquing her analyses, rather only the fully expected ad hominem that seems to be directed at commentators who provide, in actual practice, "the alternative selection", so boldly claimed in by UR on the very top line.

    On the other hand, if there is such an analyses, which does the objective needful, please inform me and I will retract my observation.

    The gentleman doth protest too much; no daylight between those two, perhaps literally as well as figuratively, dalliance and alliance both.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Believe what you wish to satisfy personal needs, it still leaves rather unaddressed, the important issue of missing objective analyses, something you have clearly stated as anathema to you ...

    ..Mr. Shama can cite all the statistics he wants.....
     
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    @SolontoCroesus
    I have been reading this thread, and it seems to me that having more nukes is worse than having fewer. Its pretty similar to when you have a bigger pile of 4th of July fireworks, the chances of an accident has to go up.

    I mean your position is also the same as giving a gun to everybody in the U.S. to lower gun related violence! How does that work? (Yeah I know all the NRA b*shit arguments)

    I've been to the middle east (Saudi, Dubai and Tel Aviv) and what I can say is that the cultures are pretty different.

    So I am with Sam Shama on this. Makes zero sense to put the bomb within the reaches of Iran. Did you forget what they did to our embassy?

    “So I am with Sam Shama on this. Makes zero sense to put the bomb within the reaches of Iran. Did you forget what they did to our embassy?”

    If the Israelis are not willing to disarm, just as Iraq, Syria, and Iran were and are required to do so, this would leave them as the sole nuclear power in the region, enabling them to lord it over their adversaries. If they do agree to disarm, that’s when the others should be required to disarm as well. Thus, the most stable scenario is if either everyone or no one has nuclear weapons in the region!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    This makes little sense to me, again its like the gun debate, if every country in the world had nukes how is that safer in the long run? It just increases the chances that someone might use it, accident or otherwise. You can't get US, Russia, China, India, Israel, South Africa, Pakistan, North Korea to disarm. So now you want EVERYBODY to have a nuke. Great!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62
    "If you are genuinely interested in solving the problem, isn’t it essential to discern the root cause rather than “set aside” the root cause?"

    As Fran indicated, rather than solving the problem, he's genuinely interested in "Deep D'd - disrupt, delay, deceive, discredit, dissuade, deter, denigrate, distrust, degrade," despite his flippant response to her query: "What is your purpose?"

    Not a bit.
    btw I think I have, within a fairly tight confidence interval, determined the issue and identity of the Econ/Physics swap. In the interest of keeping speculation within the confines of speculation, the person, Notare bene, has been jolly thorough in consigning to the proverbial dustbin, Unz’s article on the HYP admissions issue. (I am sure you got the Latin clue)

    Again, in keeping with traditions in this echo-chamber, I have not seen from Unz any objective work critiquing her analyses, rather only the fully expected ad hominem that seems to be directed at commentators who provide, in actual practice, “the alternative selection”, so boldly claimed in by UR on the very top line.

    On the other hand, if there is such an analyses, which does the objective needful, please inform me and I will retract my observation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Fran Macadam
    The gentleman doth protest too much; no daylight between those two, perhaps literally as well as figuratively, dalliance and alliance both.
    , @geokat62

    "Again, in keeping with traditions in this echo-chamber,..."
     
    If you think UR is an "echo-chamber," why do you bother posting comments here?

    This simply reinforces my suspicion that your presence here is not quite what it seems. I think your true motive for being here is identical to that of your predecessor, the M.A. in Physics - namely, to police the goy for their unseemly thought crimes!

    Why don't you come clean and admit it? Otherwise, we have no choice but to conclude that you are obsessed with listening to echoes, echoes, echoes, ...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.

  • I have been reading this thread, and it seems to me that having more nukes is worse than having fewer. Its pretty similar to when you have a bigger pile of 4th of July fireworks, the chances of an accident has to go up.

    I mean your position is also the same as giving a gun to everybody in the U.S. to lower gun related violence! How does that work? (Yeah I know all the NRA b*shit arguments)

    I’ve been to the middle east (Saudi, Dubai and Tel Aviv) and what I can say is that the cultures are pretty different.

    So I am with Sam Shama on this. Makes zero sense to put the bomb within the reaches of Iran. Did you forget what they did to our embassy?

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    "So I am with Sam Shama on this. Makes zero sense to put the bomb within the reaches of Iran. Did you forget what they did to our embassy?"
     
    If the Israelis are not willing to disarm, just as Iraq, Syria, and Iran were and are required to do so, this would leave them as the sole nuclear power in the region, enabling them to lord it over their adversaries. If they do agree to disarm, that's when the others should be required to disarm as well. Thus, the most stable scenario is if either everyone or no one has nuclear weapons in the region!
    , @annamaria
    The cultures are indeed different. But the differences have been easily bridged when, for example, the US, Saudis (9/11?), and Israelis (USSLiberty?) see benefits of cooperation. (These benefits are not always mutual, though).
    Iran has been suggesting nuclear-weapon-free Middle East. Do you know any country in the Middle East that has nuclear weapons and does not want to cooperate with the International Atomic Energy Agency? A hint: this country is not Iran.
    , @SolontoCroesus
    I don't believe StoC advocated for more nuclear weapons in the ME; geokat62 expressed the appropriate position -- either nobody has nukes or anybody is entitled to nukes.

    The current situation, with Israel the only unregulated and rogue nuclear weaponized entity in the region, is not sustainable.

    If you have been reading this thread you will have noticed that as far back as 1995 the other states in the region were promised a conference to create a Nuclear-Free Zone in the region, which was (obviously) aimed at disarming Israel, it being the only nuclear weapons state in the region, then as now. That promise has not yet been fulfilled because Israel and its enabler, the USA, would not permit it to be fulfilled.

    Refer also to the link to Israel's Periphery Doctrine. Yossi Alpher states in bold letters that it is not likely that Israel will change its behavior: the original Periphery Doctrine held that Israel would partner with, among others, Iran. That partnership having failed, and Israel having not yet learned how to get along with its neighbors, Alpher stated that (rather than examining its own rogue behavior) Israel is forming a new Periphery Doctrine, this time by coordinating with, arming for, and carrying out violence and destruction with Egypt and Saudi Arabia against Iran and Palestine and any other indigenous people of the region that demand sovereignty and resist Israeli and US belligerence.

    In other words, it is not likely that the effort to bring rogue Israel out of the cold that has failed over the past 40 years will succeed, absent some dramatic event or, tragically, violence.

    The situation that exists, therefore, is as if Iranians and the Palestinians -- and Libya, Syria, Lebanon -- must remain the weapons-free Mother Emmanuel Church, and the Dyllan Roof/Israels of the world must be coddled and given "security guarantees" and more and more weapons.

    Does that make sense to you?

    How would you resolve that dire situation?

    , @Sam Shama
    what S2C and geokat are talking about is easily rejected by anyone who recognises the situation at hand as essentially belonging to an elementary class of problems in maths of optimisation, where a search for the optimal leads to a multiplicity of trivial solutions. The trick is in imposing correct constraints, that will lead to what is termed a"corner solution". They think quite so airily that they have "eviscerated" arguments, without any real comprehension of the objective function or constraints. The Kargil war I pointed to previously, is apropos.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    Sam Shama wrote:

    the ME and its instability is utterly unpredictable, and setting aside discussions about what the root cause is,
     
    The root cause is zionism, zionist Israel, and zionized US Congress and foreign policy establishment.
    If you are genuinely interested in solving the problem, isn't it essential to discern the root cause rather than "set aside" the root cause?

    Sam Shama wrote:


    we simply have to weigh the risks against benefits. If Iran gets the bomb, surely Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq will follow rapidly, perhaps in that sequence.
     
    1. One major benefit might be containment of Israel's freedom to act violently and with impunity against its neighbors who do not have anything approaching the capacity of Israel to deliver death and destruction.

    2. Speaking of delivering death and destruction, do you have the same concerns about proliferating other weapons to "Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq" ? USA and Israel are arming these states to the teeth. Isn't it a fact that far more innocent people have been killed with non-nuclear weapons than with nuclear weapons?

    3. In any event, the nuclearization of other states in the Middle East has already begun, and the USA is supporting the project ---


    Launched January 4, 2012
    The Mideast’s newest nuclear power plant is being built in the United Arab Emirates, just a few hundred miles from Iran. U.A.E. officials promise that the plant will be open to inspections by the International Atomic Energy Agency and other international watchdogs. U.S. and European officials describe it a model project which stands in direct contrast to Iran’s secret nuclear push.
    Dig beyond the public statements, however, and U.S. officials acknowledge real concerns about the plant. . . .http://pulitzercenter.org/projects/united-arab-emirates-nuclear-program-weapons-arms-iran-iaea-middle-east
     

    With American support, the Emirati government is building the Arab world’s first—and, for the moment, only—nuclear-power plant. http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/persian-gulf-nuclear-power-bomb-united-arab-emirates-iran-arms-race-braka

     

    Sam Shama wrote:

    The various sectarian divisions in the ME cauldron exist at very high base temperatures and it takes only a small spark to set off Armageddon.
     
    Isn't it a fact that Arabs and Jews got along quite well together in Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Syria for hundreds of years until the zionist project inserted itself and stirred up the pot?

    Isn't it a fact that despite their "sectarian" differences, the various Muslim sects intermarried and lived together in relative peace in Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc., until the US invasion of Iraq, roundly endorsed & promoted by Bibi Netanyahu, turned the region into a cauldron of chaos?

    It IS a fact that Iran is home to at least seven diverse ethnic groups who all get along more-or-less peacefully -- at least as peacefully as do groups in the multi-ethnic "immigrant nation" and multi-denominational USA; and that Islam as practiced in Iran is inflected with ineradicable core Zoroastrian habits of mind and culture.

    --
    Sam Shama -- save your boilerplate for a less informed audience; folks here eviscerated bogus arguments like yours years ago.

    “If you are genuinely interested in solving the problem, isn’t it essential to discern the root cause rather than “set aside” the root cause?”

    As Fran indicated, rather than solving the problem, he’s genuinely interested in “Deep D’d – disrupt, delay, deceive, discredit, dissuade, deter, denigrate, distrust, degrade,” despite his flippant response to her query: “What is your purpose?”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Not a bit.
    btw I think I have, within a fairly tight confidence interval, determined the issue and identity of the Econ/Physics swap. In the interest of keeping speculation within the confines of speculation, the person, Notare bene, has been jolly thorough in consigning to the proverbial dustbin, Unz's article on the HYP admissions issue. (I am sure you got the Latin clue)

    Again, in keeping with traditions in this echo-chamber, I have not seen from Unz any objective work critiquing her analyses, rather only the fully expected ad hominem that seems to be directed at commentators who provide, in actual practice, "the alternative selection", so boldly claimed in by UR on the very top line.

    On the other hand, if there is such an analyses, which does the objective needful, please inform me and I will retract my observation.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Another problem of the anti-war, anti-Israel- influence- over- US- foreign- policy sector is the way that it is atomized. There are many voices and small groups who do their best to gather information, inform themselves, educate others, and speak out, but they have not coalesced to form a body with enough heft to tip the balance.

    One such small group is the American Iranian Friendship Committee (AIFC) http://iranprospect.blogspot.com founded by Ardeshir and Ellie Ommani.

    Sadly, Ardeshir has succumbed to a lung disease that he fought for several years, even as he and his wife fought for “peace through justice.”

    Rest in Peace Ardeshir Ommani, and condolences to his wife, Eleanor.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    Sam Shama wrote:

    the ME and its instability is utterly unpredictable, and setting aside discussions about what the root cause is,
     
    The root cause is zionism, zionist Israel, and zionized US Congress and foreign policy establishment.
    If you are genuinely interested in solving the problem, isn't it essential to discern the root cause rather than "set aside" the root cause?

    Sam Shama wrote:


    we simply have to weigh the risks against benefits. If Iran gets the bomb, surely Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq will follow rapidly, perhaps in that sequence.
     
    1. One major benefit might be containment of Israel's freedom to act violently and with impunity against its neighbors who do not have anything approaching the capacity of Israel to deliver death and destruction.

    2. Speaking of delivering death and destruction, do you have the same concerns about proliferating other weapons to "Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq" ? USA and Israel are arming these states to the teeth. Isn't it a fact that far more innocent people have been killed with non-nuclear weapons than with nuclear weapons?

    3. In any event, the nuclearization of other states in the Middle East has already begun, and the USA is supporting the project ---


    Launched January 4, 2012
    The Mideast’s newest nuclear power plant is being built in the United Arab Emirates, just a few hundred miles from Iran. U.A.E. officials promise that the plant will be open to inspections by the International Atomic Energy Agency and other international watchdogs. U.S. and European officials describe it a model project which stands in direct contrast to Iran’s secret nuclear push.
    Dig beyond the public statements, however, and U.S. officials acknowledge real concerns about the plant. . . .http://pulitzercenter.org/projects/united-arab-emirates-nuclear-program-weapons-arms-iran-iaea-middle-east
     

    With American support, the Emirati government is building the Arab world’s first—and, for the moment, only—nuclear-power plant. http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/persian-gulf-nuclear-power-bomb-united-arab-emirates-iran-arms-race-braka

     

    Sam Shama wrote:

    The various sectarian divisions in the ME cauldron exist at very high base temperatures and it takes only a small spark to set off Armageddon.
     
    Isn't it a fact that Arabs and Jews got along quite well together in Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Syria for hundreds of years until the zionist project inserted itself and stirred up the pot?

    Isn't it a fact that despite their "sectarian" differences, the various Muslim sects intermarried and lived together in relative peace in Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc., until the US invasion of Iraq, roundly endorsed & promoted by Bibi Netanyahu, turned the region into a cauldron of chaos?

    It IS a fact that Iran is home to at least seven diverse ethnic groups who all get along more-or-less peacefully -- at least as peacefully as do groups in the multi-ethnic "immigrant nation" and multi-denominational USA; and that Islam as practiced in Iran is inflected with ineradicable core Zoroastrian habits of mind and culture.

    --
    Sam Shama -- save your boilerplate for a less informed audience; folks here eviscerated bogus arguments like yours years ago.

    “Sam Shama — save your boilerplate for a less informed audience; folks here eviscerated bogus arguments like yours years ago.”

    I love it when someone calls a spade a spade!

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Right
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama

    Perhaps there’d be a better chance of peace in the Middle East if there were more nuclear powers in the region.
     
    You could be right of course, yet I hesitate to extrapolate from European experience and apply to the Middle East. The ME is not the American MW! That's not a flip remark, the ME and its instability is utterly unpredictable, and setting aside discussions about what the root cause is, we simply have to weigh the risks against benefits. If Iran gets the bomb, surely Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq will follow rapidly, perhaps in that sequence. The various sectarian divisions in the ME cauldron exist at very high base temperatures and it takes only a small spark to set off Armageddon.

    Sam Shama wrote:

    the ME and its instability is utterly unpredictable, and setting aside discussions about what the root cause is,

    The root cause is zionism, zionist Israel, and zionized US Congress and foreign policy establishment.
    If you are genuinely interested in solving the problem, isn’t it essential to discern the root cause rather than “set aside” the root cause?

    Sam Shama wrote:

    we simply have to weigh the risks against benefits. If Iran gets the bomb, surely Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq will follow rapidly, perhaps in that sequence.

    1. One major benefit might be containment of Israel’s freedom to act violently and with impunity against its neighbors who do not have anything approaching the capacity of Israel to deliver death and destruction.

    2. Speaking of delivering death and destruction, do you have the same concerns about proliferating other weapons to “Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq” ? USA and Israel are arming these states to the teeth. Isn’t it a fact that far more innocent people have been killed with non-nuclear weapons than with nuclear weapons?

    3. In any event, the nuclearization of other states in the Middle East has already begun, and the USA is supporting the project —

    Launched January 4, 2012
    The Mideast’s newest nuclear power plant is being built in the United Arab Emirates, just a few hundred miles from Iran. U.A.E. officials promise that the plant will be open to inspections by the International Atomic Energy Agency and other international watchdogs. U.S. and European officials describe it a model project which stands in direct contrast to Iran’s secret nuclear push.
    Dig beyond the public statements, however, and U.S. officials acknowledge real concerns about the plant. . . .http://pulitzercenter.org/projects/united-arab-emirates-nuclear-program-weapons-arms-iran-iaea-middle-east

    With American support, the Emirati government is building the Arab world’s first—and, for the moment, only—nuclear-power plant. http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/persian-gulf-nuclear-power-bomb-united-arab-emirates-iran-arms-race-braka

    Sam Shama wrote:

    The various sectarian divisions in the ME cauldron exist at very high base temperatures and it takes only a small spark to set off Armageddon.

    Isn’t it a fact that Arabs and Jews got along quite well together in Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Syria for hundreds of years until the zionist project inserted itself and stirred up the pot?

    Isn’t it a fact that despite their “sectarian” differences, the various Muslim sects intermarried and lived together in relative peace in Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc., until the US invasion of Iraq, roundly endorsed & promoted by Bibi Netanyahu, turned the region into a cauldron of chaos?

    It IS a fact that Iran is home to at least seven diverse ethnic groups who all get along more-or-less peacefully — at least as peacefully as do groups in the multi-ethnic “immigrant nation” and multi-denominational USA; and that Islam as practiced in Iran is inflected with ineradicable core Zoroastrian habits of mind and culture.


    Sam Shama — save your boilerplate for a less informed audience; folks here eviscerated bogus arguments like yours years ago.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62
    "Sam Shama — save your boilerplate for a less informed audience; folks here eviscerated bogus arguments like yours years ago."

    I love it when someone calls a spade a spade!
    , @geokat62
    "If you are genuinely interested in solving the problem, isn’t it essential to discern the root cause rather than “set aside” the root cause?"

    As Fran indicated, rather than solving the problem, he's genuinely interested in "Deep D'd - disrupt, delay, deceive, discredit, dissuade, deter, denigrate, distrust, degrade," despite his flippant response to her query: "What is your purpose?"
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama

    Perhaps there’d be a better chance of peace in the Middle East if there were more nuclear powers in the region.
     
    You could be right of course, yet I hesitate to extrapolate from European experience and apply to the Middle East. The ME is not the American MW! That's not a flip remark, the ME and its instability is utterly unpredictable, and setting aside discussions about what the root cause is, we simply have to weigh the risks against benefits. If Iran gets the bomb, surely Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq will follow rapidly, perhaps in that sequence. The various sectarian divisions in the ME cauldron exist at very high base temperatures and it takes only a small spark to set off Armageddon.

    “The various sectarian divisions in the ME cauldron exist at very high base temperatures and it takes only a small spark to set off Armageddon.”

    In case you haven’t noticed… that spark has already been lit. Any idea by whom and for what purpose? Or is that something you’d prefer to sweep under the rug?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Brad Smith
    Thanks for giving me something to think about. I'll keep this in mind as I attempt to move minds towards the anti-war message myself. As a Libertarian/Anarchist I tend to get a little harsh with anyone who I see as overly devoted to the state.

    I think the biggest problem with regards to your ideas here are that people just love being part of a team and love to hate the other teams. It's only gotten worse and worse in the last couple decades though. Really terrible and by far the worst I have seen is right now. Identity politics is such complete trash. You really can't be part of any party and keep your morality in tact. It's just impossible. It's not just a matter of compromise either, you have to be able to completely toss out your own belief system and suspend logical deduction at the same time. It's amazing these partisans' heads don't explode from all the cognitive dissonance.

    As for Progressives most of them do seem to believe their own line, but then they blow it by hating Republicans/Conservatives/Evangelicals so much that they will back anyone with a D behind their name. This allows anyone with a D to completely ignore them. They know they have their vote anyway.

    By the way, you missed the other Progressive platform point that turns many people off; Separation of Church and State. You will never find a Progressive that doesn't hammer on that point. It's not that other groups don't also agree with this but it's how they come across that is killing them. It's like they believe Christianity belongs in the closet. Their motto could be Gays out Christians in. This turns off Christians by the millions. I wonder how many of them know the KKK had Separation of church and state as a top item on their list too, just in reverse, if you know what I mean? Not that I'm a practicing Christian because I'm not. But most Americans like myself do believe in God even if we don't go to church or even give it a whole lot of thought. However, nobody likes to have their beliefs oppressed or even mocked as so many progressives seem to do. It's one thing to demand that we never become a theocracy and it's another thing entirely to demand that people keep their faith out of any public place as if it's something to be ashamed of.

    If I had one word of advice for progressives it would be to dial this one back a notch. We get it! You can't stand Evangelicals, most of us don't care for them either. But don't cross that line and make all Christians out to be bible thumping, gun hugging, cousin fornicating, no teeth trailer trash.

    Oh and I get the e-mails for the free guns too. I sign up for all of them, I really do. But I do cringe at this message. The Rand Paul supporting ones are coming off as way too right wing. So much so that I have a hard time taking him seriously as any type of libertarian. They just make me think of typical Republican nonsense. Obama gonna grab your guns!! Scare tactic nonsense, when they could be talking about a whole lot more important things, like foreign policy! I don't know, maybe he thinks this stuff will steal enough votes from the right wingers to win the primaries. I hope so, but it still bugs me to get them. I don't read them anymore at all, makes me feel dirty like I'm one of "them".

    By the way, you missed the other Progressive platform point that turns many people off; Separation of Church and State. You will never find a Progressive that doesn’t hammer on that point.

    Talk about crossing boundaries to achieve common goals — those goals being, in Phil’s words: “an end to the continuous global warfare syndrome and also pari passu
    to get Israel out of our politics,

    “a voting majority actually exists to challenge current policies but it has to come together. . . .” [also Phil's words] — or in any event it has to be pieced together.

    One important and surprising piece of that “voting majority” exists in the Orthodox Jewish community. Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro has led a number of protest rallies and participated in interviews to protest, among other things, the denial of religious freedom to Orthodox Jews in Israel! In Israel, Jewish cemeteries are being bulldozed to make way for zionist “progress.”

    Rabbi Shapiro’s stump speech gets to the heart of the matter: just as zionism has supplanted American foundational values, so it has co-opted the essentials of Jewish religion:

    the most insidious crime that that state has committed against our people: the theft of our identity. WE ARE THE JEWISH people. We are Israel. Here. We have been around for thousands of years practicing our religion. . . . They have not been around long enough to collect Social Security. They are impostors!

    Everybody knows the history of zionism: they weren’t happy with the way Jews were. They had inferiority complex. They were not accepted by the religious Jews because they were not religious, and they were not accepted by the non-Jews because they were Jews. They thought, in their great brilliance, that in order to eliminate antisemitism and in order to protect the Jewish people we have to change what the Jewish people are, from a religion . . . to a nation of soldiers and warriors *.

    What in the world is a Jewish state, can you tell me? I know what a Jewish person is, I know what a Jewish philosophy is, but the adjective Jewish does not accommodate the noun state.
    It’s like saying a Jewish tree, a Jewish car. What does it mean?

    The only way the zionists were able to create a Jewish state — for the noun State to accommodate the adjective Jewish — is to change the definition of Jewish. The hate, the seething psychopathic hate that the zionist has for the Jew is not borne out of bigotry and it’s not borne out of ignorance, it’s borne out of fear — fear because they thought by now there would be none of us left. They thought that by now all the Jews in the world, or all that matter anyway would be remade in their image; that the world would be at peace with them; that they would be able to vanquish their enemies with their armies. And now they see that We Still Live! They see that we are rapidly expanding and they see that we raise our voices. They see that they are a failure and that’s why they hate us! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChQLH71HAo4#t=188

    Rabbi Shapiro struck both chords of “majority” discontent with US foreign policy and with zionist Israel’s disproportionate influence and impact on it: zionism knows only militarism; zionism’s founding ideology was based on violence and war-making.

    The zionist ideology has overtaken and subverted the US Congress and subsumed the principles on which the US was founded.

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  • @dfordoom
    The opinions were not divergent in the least bit regarding the lethality or undesirability of nuclear arms

    Why exactly are nuclear weapons undesirable? They gave Europe an unprecedented period of peace. Maybe it was peace through terror, but then maybe that's the only way to get peace.

    Perhaps there'd be a better chance of peace in the Middle East if there were more nuclear powers in the region. It would certainly reduce the chances of the US getting involved in yet another bone-headed war like the Iraq war.

    Perhaps there’d be a better chance of peace in the Middle East if there were more nuclear powers in the region.

    You could be right of course, yet I hesitate to extrapolate from European experience and apply to the Middle East. The ME is not the American MW! That’s not a flip remark, the ME and its instability is utterly unpredictable, and setting aside discussions about what the root cause is, we simply have to weigh the risks against benefits. If Iran gets the bomb, surely Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq will follow rapidly, perhaps in that sequence. The various sectarian divisions in the ME cauldron exist at very high base temperatures and it takes only a small spark to set off Armageddon.

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    • Replies: @geokat62
    "The various sectarian divisions in the ME cauldron exist at very high base temperatures and it takes only a small spark to set off Armageddon."

    In case you haven't noticed... that spark has already been lit. Any idea by whom and for what purpose? Or is that something you'd prefer to sweep under the rug?
    , @SolontoCroesus
    Sam Shama wrote:

    the ME and its instability is utterly unpredictable, and setting aside discussions about what the root cause is,
     
    The root cause is zionism, zionist Israel, and zionized US Congress and foreign policy establishment.
    If you are genuinely interested in solving the problem, isn't it essential to discern the root cause rather than "set aside" the root cause?

    Sam Shama wrote:


    we simply have to weigh the risks against benefits. If Iran gets the bomb, surely Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq will follow rapidly, perhaps in that sequence.
     
    1. One major benefit might be containment of Israel's freedom to act violently and with impunity against its neighbors who do not have anything approaching the capacity of Israel to deliver death and destruction.

    2. Speaking of delivering death and destruction, do you have the same concerns about proliferating other weapons to "Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq" ? USA and Israel are arming these states to the teeth. Isn't it a fact that far more innocent people have been killed with non-nuclear weapons than with nuclear weapons?

    3. In any event, the nuclearization of other states in the Middle East has already begun, and the USA is supporting the project ---


    Launched January 4, 2012
    The Mideast’s newest nuclear power plant is being built in the United Arab Emirates, just a few hundred miles from Iran. U.A.E. officials promise that the plant will be open to inspections by the International Atomic Energy Agency and other international watchdogs. U.S. and European officials describe it a model project which stands in direct contrast to Iran’s secret nuclear push.
    Dig beyond the public statements, however, and U.S. officials acknowledge real concerns about the plant. . . .http://pulitzercenter.org/projects/united-arab-emirates-nuclear-program-weapons-arms-iran-iaea-middle-east
     

    With American support, the Emirati government is building the Arab world’s first—and, for the moment, only—nuclear-power plant. http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/persian-gulf-nuclear-power-bomb-united-arab-emirates-iran-arms-race-braka

     

    Sam Shama wrote:

    The various sectarian divisions in the ME cauldron exist at very high base temperatures and it takes only a small spark to set off Armageddon.
     
    Isn't it a fact that Arabs and Jews got along quite well together in Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Syria for hundreds of years until the zionist project inserted itself and stirred up the pot?

    Isn't it a fact that despite their "sectarian" differences, the various Muslim sects intermarried and lived together in relative peace in Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc., until the US invasion of Iraq, roundly endorsed & promoted by Bibi Netanyahu, turned the region into a cauldron of chaos?

    It IS a fact that Iran is home to at least seven diverse ethnic groups who all get along more-or-less peacefully -- at least as peacefully as do groups in the multi-ethnic "immigrant nation" and multi-denominational USA; and that Islam as practiced in Iran is inflected with ineradicable core Zoroastrian habits of mind and culture.

    --
    Sam Shama -- save your boilerplate for a less informed audience; folks here eviscerated bogus arguments like yours years ago.

    , @dfordoom

    You could be right of course, yet I hesitate to extrapolate from European experience and apply to the Middle East.
     
    I'm hesitant about the idea as well but I just don't know what else would work. It's worked with India and Pakistan - they haven't exactly learnt to love one another but at least they haven't had a major war for more than forty years.

    It's worth considering that if Israel and Egypt had both had nukes in 1967 the Six-Day War would probably not have happened, and the Six-Day War was the first fateful step in the destabilisation of the region.
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  • Thanks for giving me something to think about. I’ll keep this in mind as I attempt to move minds towards the anti-war message myself. As a Libertarian/Anarchist I tend to get a little harsh with anyone who I see as overly devoted to the state.

    I think the biggest problem with regards to your ideas here are that people just love being part of a team and love to hate the other teams. It’s only gotten worse and worse in the last couple decades though. Really terrible and by far the worst I have seen is right now. Identity politics is such complete trash. You really can’t be part of any party and keep your morality in tact. It’s just impossible. It’s not just a matter of compromise either, you have to be able to completely toss out your own belief system and suspend logical deduction at the same time. It’s amazing these partisans’ heads don’t explode from all the cognitive dissonance.

    As for Progressives most of them do seem to believe their own line, but then they blow it by hating Republicans/Conservatives/Evangelicals so much that they will back anyone with a D behind their name. This allows anyone with a D to completely ignore them. They know they have their vote anyway.

    By the way, you missed the other Progressive platform point that turns many people off; Separation of Church and State. You will never find a Progressive that doesn’t hammer on that point. It’s not that other groups don’t also agree with this but it’s how they come across that is killing them. It’s like they believe Christianity belongs in the closet. Their motto could be Gays out Christians in. This turns off Christians by the millions. I wonder how many of them know the KKK had Separation of church and state as a top item on their list too, just in reverse, if you know what I mean? Not that I’m a practicing Christian because I’m not. But most Americans like myself do believe in God even if we don’t go to church or even give it a whole lot of thought. However, nobody likes to have their beliefs oppressed or even mocked as so many progressives seem to do. It’s one thing to demand that we never become a theocracy and it’s another thing entirely to demand that people keep their faith out of any public place as if it’s something to be ashamed of.

    If I had one word of advice for progressives it would be to dial this one back a notch. We get it! You can’t stand Evangelicals, most of us don’t care for them either. But don’t cross that line and make all Christians out to be bible thumping, gun hugging, cousin fornicating, no teeth trailer trash.

    Oh and I get the e-mails for the free guns too. I sign up for all of them, I really do. But I do cringe at this message. The Rand Paul supporting ones are coming off as way too right wing. So much so that I have a hard time taking him seriously as any type of libertarian. They just make me think of typical Republican nonsense. Obama gonna grab your guns!! Scare tactic nonsense, when they could be talking about a whole lot more important things, like foreign policy! I don’t know, maybe he thinks this stuff will steal enough votes from the right wingers to win the primaries. I hope so, but it still bugs me to get them. I don’t read them anymore at all, makes me feel dirty like I’m one of “them”.

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    By the way, you missed the other Progressive platform point that turns many people off; Separation of Church and State. You will never find a Progressive that doesn’t hammer on that point.
     
    Talk about crossing boundaries to achieve common goals -- those goals being, in Phil's words: "an end to the continuous global warfare syndrome and also pari passu
    to get Israel out of our politics,"

    "a voting majority actually exists to challenge current policies but it has to come together. . . ." [also Phil's words] --- or in any event it has to be pieced together.

    One important and surprising piece of that "voting majority" exists in the Orthodox Jewish community. Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro has led a number of protest rallies and participated in interviews to protest, among other things, the denial of religious freedom to Orthodox Jews in Israel! In Israel, Jewish cemeteries are being bulldozed to make way for zionist "progress."

    Rabbi Shapiro's stump speech gets to the heart of the matter: just as zionism has supplanted American foundational values, so it has co-opted the essentials of Jewish religion:


    the most insidious crime that that state has committed against our people: the theft of our identity. WE ARE THE JEWISH people. We are Israel. Here. We have been around for thousands of years practicing our religion. . . . They have not been around long enough to collect Social Security. They are impostors!

    Everybody knows the history of zionism: they weren’t happy with the way Jews were. They had inferiority complex. They were not accepted by the religious Jews because they were not religious, and they were not accepted by the non-Jews because they were Jews. They thought, in their great brilliance, that in order to eliminate antisemitism and in order to protect the Jewish people we have to change what the Jewish people are, from a religion . . . to a nation of soldiers and warriors *.

    What in the world is a Jewish state, can you tell me? I know what a Jewish person is, I know what a Jewish philosophy is, but the adjective Jewish does not accommodate the noun state.
    It’s like saying a Jewish tree, a Jewish car. What does it mean?

    The only way the zionists were able to create a Jewish state — for the noun State to accommodate the adjective Jewish — is to change the definition of Jewish. The hate, the seething psychopathic hate that the zionist has for the Jew is not borne out of bigotry and it’s not borne out of ignorance, it’s borne out of fear — fear because they thought by now there would be none of us left. They thought that by now all the Jews in the world, or all that matter anyway would be remade in their image; that the world would be at peace with them; that they would be able to vanquish their enemies with their armies. And now they see that We Still Live! They see that we are rapidly expanding and they see that we raise our voices. They see that they are a failure and that’s why they hate us! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChQLH71HAo4#t=188
     

    Rabbi Shapiro struck both chords of "majority" discontent with US foreign policy and with zionist Israel's disproportionate influence and impact on it: zionism knows only militarism; zionism's founding ideology was based on violence and war-making.

    The zionist ideology has overtaken and subverted the US Congress and subsumed the principles on which the US was founded.

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  • @Sam Shama
    Simply wanted to see the source of that poll. Also as I made abundantly clear, I am not opposed to a deal, but not one that hands over the bomb upon expiration of it!

    “Simply wanted to see the source of that poll.”

    I don’t buy it. If you were so keen on seeing the source, you could have simply googled it yourself. As I said before, something smells fishy!

    And the dead giveaway is your statement: “I’m not opposed to a deal” without explicitly indicating you are, in fact, opposed to the current deal… very, very sneaky!

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  • @Don Nash
    I think that Americans are hopelessly mired in partisan bulls*@t and there are no viable alternatives to the status quo. That also would apply to the few that pay any attention whatsoever. Medea and her cohorts like to play 'shock-and-awe' kabuki protest and accomplish nothing. My opinion only.
    Democrats are lost, Republicans are morally bankrupt, Libertarians are trapped in 'strutting peacock' syndrome, and hope for a sane American future is a waning hope at best.
    However should Barack the Obama continue to lose his game of chess chicken with Vlad Putin and makes one bonehead move too many, we'll all be facing a nuclear winter that no one wants but that nuclear winter seems almost an inevitability.

    Scanned your comment prior to reading, spotted the word “Libertarians”, immediately go to next comment #lawgicTrap @stawpPoasting

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  • @Philip Giraldi

    I would disagree with the claim that the left has not criticized Obama. He’s regarded in many quarters on many mainstream progressive website as a liar and a sellout, because he campaigned in 2008 on a progressive platform and largely continued the abuses of power of the Bush Administration. The wars did not end, nor were the majority of Obama’s promises.

    I think that although far from perfect, the progressive left has one of the largest of the anti-war movements throughout the US.

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  • @Sam Shama
    Read again carefully what I said. The opinions were not divergent in the least bit regarding the lethality or undesirability of nuclear arms, rather on matters discussed in previous articles, where your exclusive and large collection of jew haters seem to draw inspiration from. Once again, do read the entire thread. I endorse that all nuclear powers engage in simultaneous disarmament.

    Any objection to that?

    The opinions were not divergent in the least bit regarding the lethality or undesirability of nuclear arms

    Why exactly are nuclear weapons undesirable? They gave Europe an unprecedented period of peace. Maybe it was peace through terror, but then maybe that’s the only way to get peace.

    Perhaps there’d be a better chance of peace in the Middle East if there were more nuclear powers in the region. It would certainly reduce the chances of the US getting involved in yet another bone-headed war like the Iraq war.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama

    Perhaps there’d be a better chance of peace in the Middle East if there were more nuclear powers in the region.
     
    You could be right of course, yet I hesitate to extrapolate from European experience and apply to the Middle East. The ME is not the American MW! That's not a flip remark, the ME and its instability is utterly unpredictable, and setting aside discussions about what the root cause is, we simply have to weigh the risks against benefits. If Iran gets the bomb, surely Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq will follow rapidly, perhaps in that sequence. The various sectarian divisions in the ME cauldron exist at very high base temperatures and it takes only a small spark to set off Armageddon.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “But compared to the feeble efforts emanating from the political right and center, I find that progressive events tend to be commendably much more focused and even aggressive but also aimed almost exclusively at the choir with little attempt to reach out to a broader audience. ”

    Maybe they are doing the smart thing for their interests. The progressive left wants these issues to themselves. They use issues like opposition to war to recruit.

    They have been very consistent and very clear that they will never collaborate with anyone on the dissent right. They consider all of us to be racists, bigots, scum etc.

    They will never give us credit for agreeing with them on some issues or decide that makes us less bad.

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  • @Fran Macadam
    Mr. Shama can cite all the statistics he wants, but I'm afraid that for many of us, to believe him, we'd have to ignore what our "lying" eyes present to us, right here in our own neighborhoods, among our friends and community members.

    In this middle class neighborhood, on one street alone (this one) there are seven foreclosed single family homes. The bank, Wells Fargo, was certainly bailed out and both wrote off and profited. I guess that's Mr. Shama's full recovery and he can cite some balance sheet to prove that the wealth of banksters is the health of the nation.

    Food banks are under pressure as never before here, demand having grown exponentially. The number of homeless is a visible sight even in areas they weren't seen before. There are homeless camps outside city limits.

    Inability for many to find employment, or any as good as they previously had, is endemic. Several middle aged men in this community committed suicide after long term unemployment.

    The companies that used to provide even high tech employment moved production offshore, and the skeleton crews were moved to become outsourced subcontractors with no benefits.

    So many university graduates we know moved back in with parents - no work in their field and often none at all. Underemployment at best.

    An answer for some I know has been becoming disabled and collecting social security that way. Sad because they could work, but there is no work.

    Savers all their lives now experiencing hardship because the bailed out banksters pay no interest on their savings while inflation to say the least is understated by Mr. Shama's unchallengeable statistics.

    Public services from the city decline because with all the empty storefronts and foreclosures, the budgets just aren't there from the shrunken tax base.

    I could add more, much more, but you get the idea. Of course, the real experiences are merely anecdotal and to be disbelieved, compared to Mr. Shama's statistics, right there in solid black and white, backed by the full faith of the banking industry and its bureau of employees in government. Although there are competing statistical analyses.

    Why the self-styled genius of a boasted IQ of 204 is spending time to tell us we are really eating cake, and all is well with neocon control, Wall Street depredation is good for us and current endless war policy the cat's meow, instead of engaging in more profitable exercises for himself, is a conundrum.

    It really does fit the bill for propaganda.

    “Why the self-styled genius of a boasted IQ of 204 is spending time to tell us…is a conundrum.”

    So… you smell a fish, too!

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  • @Sam Shama
    you have definitely read a wide variety of material on the Jewish Diaspora. Iran has been more than welcoming to Jews for millennia, from the time of Akhashverosh/Esther and Mordechai. Khomeini was the beginning of trouble. btw Jews have been living in India for many hundreds of years very happily (originally Iraqi jews)

    Iran has been more than welcoming to Jews for millennia, from the time of Akhashverosh/Esther and Mordechai.

    Fascinating.

    Sam Shama dates Iran’s “welcoming to Jews” to the events of Esther, who oversaw the slaughter of 75,000 innocent Persians in addition to Haman and his ten sons; Esther installed herself in the position of the queen and gained control of Persian treasure, while Mordechai supplanted Haman as Persia’s foreign minister — in other words, a coup d’etat of the Persian state by Jews Sam Shama termed the beginning of Iran’s “welcoming to Jews.”

    However.

    Torah records that Persia’s “welcoming to Jews” began much earlier (which seems to imply that Esther’s acts were those of gross ingratitude and treachery, at the very least).

    Centuries before the kingship of Ahasueras (Akhashverosh) Cyrus, king of Persia, liberated Jews from the control of Nebuchadnezzar; recovered the sacred vessels of Yehud (the Jews); the people of Persia contributed their treasure to assist Yehud to return to their keenly missed Zion — “If I forget thee o zion may my right hand be forgotten” (one assumes Esther was a south paw); supported the Jews financially and politically for 200 years to return to Jerusalem and rebuild it.

    Sam Shama failed to mention those several centuries of Persian friendship toward Jews.
    Rather, Sam remembered the events where Jews killed and stole from Persians and he used that as a reference point for Iran’s attitude of “welcoming to Jews.”


    Sam wrote: “Khomeini was the beginning of trouble.”

    Perhaps from the Israeli or Jewish point of view, but the Iranian revolution came about for reasons that were significant to the Iranian people.

    If Israel would stop meddling — for example, if Israelis had not abetted and profited while Iranians were dying in a war with Iraq but instead encouraged Iran to seek a graceful end to hostilities; if Israel had offered political support to Iran when Iran complained to the United Nations, numerous times, about Iraq’s use of chemical weapons against the Iranian people, including civilians; that is, if Israel had shown the spiritual and political maturity and generosity that Cyrus demonstrated rather than the greed and bloodlust of Esther, it staggers the imagination how much different today might be.

    Gilad Atzom noted in his book, The Wandering Who, that Esther wrote the template for the zionist project.

    The Biblical Book of Esther that was given to President Obama by Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu yesterday was far from being a cryptic message. The Book of Esther is a genocidal recipe; It is there to educate Jews how to infiltrate into foreign administrations. In my latest book The Wandering Who I explore the role of The Biblical text in shaping contemporary Jewish political Lobbying and its open attempt to dominate American and British foreign policies.

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  • Mr. Shama can cite all the statistics he wants, but I’m afraid that for many of us, to believe him, we’d have to ignore what our “lying” eyes present to us, right here in our own neighborhoods, among our friends and community members.

    In this middle class neighborhood, on one street alone (this one) there are seven foreclosed single family homes. The bank, Wells Fargo, was certainly bailed out and both wrote off and profited. I guess that’s Mr. Shama’s full recovery and he can cite some balance sheet to prove that the wealth of banksters is the health of the nation.

    Food banks are under pressure as never before here, demand having grown exponentially. The number of homeless is a visible sight even in areas they weren’t seen before. There are homeless camps outside city limits.

    Inability for many to find employment, or any as good as they previously had, is endemic. Several middle aged men in this community committed suicide after long term unemployment.

    The companies that used to provide even high tech employment moved production offshore, and the skeleton crews were moved to become outsourced subcontractors with no benefits.

    So many university graduates we know moved back in with parents – no work in their field and often none at all. Underemployment at best.

    An answer for some I know has been becoming disabled and collecting social security that way. Sad because they could work, but there is no work.

    Savers all their lives now experiencing hardship because the bailed out banksters pay no interest on their savings while inflation to say the least is understated by Mr. Shama’s unchallengeable statistics.

    Public services from the city decline because with all the empty storefronts and foreclosures, the budgets just aren’t there from the shrunken tax base.

    I could add more, much more, but you get the idea. Of course, the real experiences are merely anecdotal and to be disbelieved, compared to Mr. Shama’s statistics, right there in solid black and white, backed by the full faith of the banking industry and its bureau of employees in government. Although there are competing statistical analyses.

    Why the self-styled genius of a boasted IQ of 204 is spending time to tell us we are really eating cake, and all is well with neocon control, Wall Street depredation is good for us and current endless war policy the cat’s meow, instead of engaging in more profitable exercises for himself, is a conundrum.

    It really does fit the bill for propaganda.

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    • Replies: @geokat62
    "Why the self-styled genius of a boasted IQ of 204 is spending time to tell us...is a conundrum."

    So... you smell a fish, too!
    , @David
    Best Fran comment ever. Thanks for reminding us of the IQ. I'd forgotten that.
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  • @Anonymous
    "There is great enthusiasm these days for banning the Confederate Flag"

    Is there? There may be great talk about it, that is, not about banning it but about removing it from certain public buildings. No doubt there's great sentiment in the direction of removing it from public consciousness, except as an object of scorn and ridicule. But I don't regard the push to get rid of if, nor whatever popular support underlies or better yet has been dragged along with the push, to be meaningful. It's merely a symptom of the Do Something syndrome, and a weak one at that.

    I'm almost glad that so much time has been eaten up by an issue so phony and so irrelevant. (Phony in the sense both that the push is coming from interested parties, or the top down if you will, and that its connection to the case at hand is laughably tenuous.)

    The Confederate flag,whom my great grandpa fought for in the Army of Tennessee,is a symbol of modern anti Americanism ,as its wavers hate the USA,and also seem hate everyone else.Fly it in the basement,but keep it off statehouses.
    If these idiots actually realized who their true enemy is,Zion.

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  • @SolontoCroesus
    How [and Why] Israel Armed Iran [1980 - 1988]
    from: The Secret War with Iran by Ronen Bergman, 2007, 2008

    some background:
    Iran had been Israel's best friend for decades, a key element in Israel's periphery doctrine. Further, because Jews had dwelt in Iran for thousands of years, longer and more prosperously than any other place on earth, Jews were intimately involved at the highest levels of Iran's government and its most influential institutions. When Jews left Iran, most of them voluntarily, they took with them planeloads of Persian treasure -- rugs, gold, gems, even exotic animals.

    Israel and the USA had been Iran's foremost arms merchants; thousands of Americans worked in Iran in the arms industry and even more Americans worked in US-based defense industries under contract to Iran.

    With the seizure of the US embassy in Tehran, "the United States declared a general boycott of Iran."

    When Saddam took advantage of the instability in Iran to initiate a war, Israel made the decision to ignore that boycott.

    "Operation Seashell was born. It puts the later Iran-contra scandal to shame.

    There were four main reasons why Operation Seashell went forward. First, Israel could not come to terms with the military, intelligence, and diplomatic losses that it had sustained with the disruption of relations with Iran after the revolution. Arms exports would at least give it a foothold in Tehran. In Israel's defense establishment, the lesson had been learned from many cases over the years that swiftly supplying weaponry and military know-how to a totalitarian state will bring the supplier as close as possible to the rulers, because weapons are their means of holding on to power.

    Second, it was hoped that the infusion of weaponry would intensify the Iran-Iraq war and lead to the mutual destruction or, at least weakening, of two enemies.

    Third, Israeli officials feared a victorious Saddam.

    Finally, more than anything else, the weapons industry wanted to make money. As one Israeli Defense Ministry official, a key figure in Operation Seashell, recalls: "I do not remember even one discussion about the ethics of the matter. All that interested us was to sell, sell, sell more and more Israeli weapons, and let them kill each other with them." "
     
    That's how Israelis regarded and treated the one nation on earth that has been "good for the Jews," had been a friend and protector of Jews for thousands of years.

    USA take note.

    you have definitely read a wide variety of material on the Jewish Diaspora. Iran has been more than welcoming to Jews for millennia, from the time of Akhashverosh/Esther and Mordechai. Khomeini was the beginning of trouble. btw Jews have been living in India for many hundreds of years very happily (originally Iraqi jews)

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    Iran has been more than welcoming to Jews for millennia, from the time of Akhashverosh/Esther and Mordechai.
     
    Fascinating.

    Sam Shama dates Iran's "welcoming to Jews" to the events of Esther, who oversaw the slaughter of 75,000 innocent Persians in addition to Haman and his ten sons; Esther installed herself in the position of the queen and gained control of Persian treasure, while Mordechai supplanted Haman as Persia's foreign minister -- in other words, a coup d'etat of the Persian state by Jews Sam Shama termed the beginning of Iran's "welcoming to Jews."

    However.

    Torah records that Persia's "welcoming to Jews" began much earlier (which seems to imply that Esther's acts were those of gross ingratitude and treachery, at the very least).

    Centuries before the kingship of Ahasueras (Akhashverosh) Cyrus, king of Persia, liberated Jews from the control of Nebuchadnezzar; recovered the sacred vessels of Yehud (the Jews); the people of Persia contributed their treasure to assist Yehud to return to their keenly missed Zion -- "If I forget thee o zion may my right hand be forgotten" (one assumes Esther was a south paw); supported the Jews financially and politically for 200 years to return to Jerusalem and rebuild it.

    Sam Shama failed to mention those several centuries of Persian friendship toward Jews.
    Rather, Sam remembered the events where Jews killed and stole from Persians and he used that as a reference point for Iran's attitude of "welcoming to Jews."

    --
    Sam wrote: "Khomeini was the beginning of trouble."

    Perhaps from the Israeli or Jewish point of view, but the Iranian revolution came about for reasons that were significant to the Iranian people.

    If Israel would stop meddling -- for example, if Israelis had not abetted and profited while Iranians were dying in a war with Iraq but instead encouraged Iran to seek a graceful end to hostilities; if Israel had offered political support to Iran when Iran complained to the United Nations, numerous times, about Iraq's use of chemical weapons against the Iranian people, including civilians; that is, if Israel had shown the spiritual and political maturity and generosity that Cyrus demonstrated rather than the greed and bloodlust of Esther, it staggers the imagination how much different today might be.

    Gilad Atzom noted in his book, The Wandering Who, that Esther wrote the template for the zionist project.


    The Biblical Book of Esther that was given to President Obama by Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu yesterday was far from being a cryptic message. The Book of Esther is a genocidal recipe; It is there to educate Jews how to infiltrate into foreign administrations. In my latest book The Wandering Who I explore the role of The Biblical text in shaping contemporary Jewish political Lobbying and its open attempt to dominate American and British foreign policies.
     
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  • @Moi
    "I am not opposed to a deal at all. I am opposed to Iranians having a nuke. Period. Not now, not in 10 years."

    Shama, do you know something our intelligence agencies don't? BTW, how are you with Israel's nuclear arsenal?

    If I didn’t know what they don’t know, or they didn’t know what I know, then we would not all, not know, what we don’t know.

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  • @Carroll Price
    But you're not at all opposed to Israel having nukes. Am I wrong?

    Yes

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  • @Fran Macadam
    What is your purpose?

    Ontologically speaking, to experience the Incredible Lightness of Being.

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  • @SFG
    Netanyahu's no worse and no better than any other leader over there. The question is whether his interests are ours, and how his relatives are making us think they are the same.

    I can’t think of any other “leaders over there” who makes periodic trips to the United States for the purpose of inducing ignorant Americans into financing and supporting wars against indigenous populations opposed to Israel’s theft of their homeland. The truth is that Benjamin Netanyahu is an arrogant bastard in a class all by himself.

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  • @Sam Shama
    I am not opposed to a deal at all. I am opposed to Iranians having a nuke. Period. Not now, not in 10 years.

    I am quite aware that you and your erstwhile batman would probably like to hand it over to the Iranians...

    “I am not opposed to a deal at all. I am opposed to Iranians having a nuke. Period. Not now, not in 10 years.”

    Shama, do you know something our intelligence agencies don’t? BTW, how are you with Israel’s nuclear arsenal?

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    If I didn't know what they don't know, or they didn't know what I know, then we would not all, not know, what we don't know.
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  • @Mark Green
    Philip Giraldi never fails to make important observations. This one is no exception. But there may be more here than meets the eye, and I suspect that he knows it.

    It's been discovered recently that the far-Left, hyper-progressive 'Jewish Voice for Peace' (JVP) has had its sights set on one Alison Weir, a heroic and near-saintly peace activist (and colleague of Mr. Giraldi's) who devotes herself to focusing America's attention on the tragic, US-subsidized displacement of Palestinians--not to mention the lethal and ongoing wars and policies that have blackened our nation's reputation.

    Weir does this without demonizing Jews or even the vast--sometimes ruthless--multi-headed lobby that operates in their name. Yet Weir has been targeted for banishment. Incredibly, this kind of blacklisting is not as unusual as one might suppose.

    JVP has been outed for trying to subvert Weir's pro-peace and pro-American efforts by denouncing her as a racist! This--from a 'pro-peace' (and pro-Zionist) organization no less.

    Why would a self-described Jewish peace group--one that claims to be adamantly opposed to Israel's cruel occupation of Gaza and the West Bank--try to ruin Alison Weir? Is it 'peace' or something else that JVP truly works for?

    Take a look at Gilad Atzmon's brilliant examination of this phenomena. It's groundbreaking.

    see: www.gilad.co.uk/writings/2015/6/18/jvp-alison-weir-and-the-hatred-of-the-white

    Have read Ms. Weir’s books and listened to hear on Youtube. A courageous lady who we all need to support. Weir tells uncomfortable truths, and I guess that’s what makes her dangerous in the eyes of groups like JVP.

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  • @Sam Shama

    No doubt whatsoever, that there are propagandists and manipulators who do just that.
     
    Spies you mean? Yes, I reckon there are those, but then you swiftly assume that anyone whose commentary opposes your view is a spy, a flawed assumption!

    I could call some on this forum anarcho-Marxists, Nazi glorifiers, rejectionists of US culture; and I would be right. I could pick a random entry, follow their comments and easily demonstrate the hatred of Jews. I would be right again!

    My conscience is indeed clear, and a Celtic last name is no more American than Gonzalez, or Shama for that matter. So save the patriot act.

    Fran, you started the skirmish, when you quarreled with my position (which was backed by data) that the employment participation rate was back to the 1980s level, explained easily by demographic changes and obsolescence rendered through technological progress. I have not seen an objective counter argument from you, but rather indirect accusations such as :

    a person who promotes status quo policies that are so obviously failures for most of us is assured to not have affiliation with those they benefit
     
    "most of us" i.e., Americans, have had median incomes go up from the crisis period, net worths have improved, home values have risen, unemployment has gotten back to pre-crisis levels and measures of consumer confidence risen above pre-crisis levels. Those are the facts. You called the data spurious and false. We are talking about economic data from the BLS, Fed, CBO, Federal housing authority etc. I called such allegations baseless. If for nothing, anyone thinking rationally , would realise that private enterprise vets and analyses that data to make crucial decisions, don't you think that they would've smelled any tampering?!

    I still await an objective response.

    What is your purpose?

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Ontologically speaking, to experience the Incredible Lightness of Being.
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  • @Sam Shama
    I am not opposed to a deal at all. I am opposed to Iranians having a nuke. Period. Not now, not in 10 years.

    I am quite aware that you and your erstwhile batman would probably like to hand it over to the Iranians...

    But you’re not at all opposed to Israel having nukes. Am I wrong?

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Yes
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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Phil you are a great heroic citizen and writer but it’s pretty simple why people don’t speak up. If you do you are blackballed, ruined in business and crushed in politics. It’s the most powerful mafia ever. People will whisper things about it to their Gentile friends but that’s about it.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Good article, quite right. Anyone who accepts the label “Progressive” should not be trusted. For what are they progressing towards? They avoid saying because they don’t know. So the label is intellectually and morally dishonest. It is not possible to progress without knowing what you progress towards.

    Other Americans like the fog because they fear facing the real problems. If they did they would realize that the United States is already irrelevant unless the human race plans to annihilate itself. The real problems imply a massive strong willed mobilization to transform the human way of life into something that does not need industrial civilization, for that is going away. Democracy, notoriously unstable in its policies, and especially American democracy, set up to enhance an agon of policies, could never develop the single mindedness necessary for the task. Infrastructure, education, and much else has been crumbling away for years. We know it yet have been unable to do anything about it. How could we, under the present political setup, embark upon this monumental, and quite glorious if you think about it, task. The USA is a dead duck.

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  • I completely agree with Phil’s assessment of the many groups protesting the actions and policies of the current US government.

    In a similar effort to understand how these many groups operate I wrote to several of them asking the recipients to please tell me as to why don’t all of the various “progressive” and real “conservative” groups join forces to act in concert on one overriding goal; that of changing the structure of the US government. I never received an answer from a single organization.

    I surmised then that all of these groups have their own in-bred bureaucracies that have more interest in maintaining their own fiefdoms than in actually accomplishing anything significant.

    A number of years ago I read a paper by a sociologist who studied peaceful protest events in history and concluded that for the most part they were completely ineffective. While the people involved all protested faithfully policies and actions they were against people continued to suffer and die as a result of the very ongoing deprivations the protesters were acting against. And these same people continued to suffer after all the protests were done and a few ineffective policies and laws were passed… but never enforced.

    It is the same with current US protest movements and the reason they exist is simply because they cannot face one simple fact; to do what actually has to be done cannot be a legitimate answer to the problem. It would mean they would all have to unite and do what is right for everyone involved and this lack of action in this vein is exactly what governments count on to continue their endeavors as the populace is too divided to do anything more than make a lot of noise…

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  • @geokat62
    I'm just Sancho Panza, remember? You're the one with the 204 IQ... I'm sure you'll figure it out!

    I’ll have to go through all of your’s, Unz’s, Mac Adam’s cached commentary searching for clues. Perhaps one could use a parsing and search algo……I’ll let you know :-)

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  • @Sam Shama
    Iran sent children to clear minefields. Thus the requirement by mullahs to stand ready for self sacrifice

    http://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/1r5mh3/iranian_child_soldiers_head_to_the_front_during/

    How [and Why] Israel Armed Iran [1980 - 1988]
    from: The Secret War with Iran by Ronen Bergman, 2007, 2008

    some background:
    Iran had been Israel’s best friend for decades, a key element in Israel’s periphery doctrine. Further, because Jews had dwelt in Iran for thousands of years, longer and more prosperously than any other place on earth, Jews were intimately involved at the highest levels of Iran’s government and its most influential institutions. When Jews left Iran, most of them voluntarily, they took with them planeloads of Persian treasure — rugs, gold, gems, even exotic animals.

    Israel and the USA had been Iran’s foremost arms merchants; thousands of Americans worked in Iran in the arms industry and even more Americans worked in US-based defense industries under contract to Iran.

    With the seizure of the US embassy in Tehran, “the United States declared a general boycott of Iran.”

    When Saddam took advantage of the instability in Iran to initiate a war, Israel made the decision to ignore that boycott.

    “Operation Seashell was born. It puts the later Iran-contra scandal to shame.

    There were four main reasons why Operation Seashell went forward. First, Israel could not come to terms with the military, intelligence, and diplomatic losses that it had sustained with the disruption of relations with Iran after the revolution. Arms exports would at least give it a foothold in Tehran. In Israel’s defense establishment, the lesson had been learned from many cases over the years that swiftly supplying weaponry and military know-how to a totalitarian state will bring the supplier as close as possible to the rulers, because weapons are their means of holding on to power.

    Second, it was hoped that the infusion of weaponry would intensify the Iran-Iraq war and lead to the mutual destruction or, at least weakening, of two enemies.

    Third, Israeli officials feared a victorious Saddam.

    Finally, more than anything else, the weapons industry wanted to make money. As one Israeli Defense Ministry official, a key figure in Operation Seashell, recalls: “I do not remember even one discussion about the ethics of the matter. All that interested us was to sell, sell, sell more and more Israeli weapons, and let them kill each other with them.”

    That’s how Israelis regarded and treated the one nation on earth that has been “good for the Jews,” had been a friend and protector of Jews for thousands of years.

    USA take note.

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    you have definitely read a wide variety of material on the Jewish Diaspora. Iran has been more than welcoming to Jews for millennia, from the time of Akhashverosh/Esther and Mordechai. Khomeini was the beginning of trouble. btw Jews have been living in India for many hundreds of years very happily (originally Iraqi jews)
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  • @Fran Macadam
    No doubt whatsoever, that there are propagandists and manipulators who do just that. According to those leaked internal documents, some have trouble with the lack of ethics involved in domestic social engineering carried out against their own countrymen. Hopefully your conscience is clear. And not simply because Americans are not your own people, with your loyalties to another.

    No doubt whatsoever, that there are propagandists and manipulators who do just that.

    Spies you mean? Yes, I reckon there are those, but then you swiftly assume that anyone whose commentary opposes your view is a spy, a flawed assumption!

    I could call some on this forum anarcho-Marxists, Nazi glorifiers, rejectionists of US culture; and I would be right. I could pick a random entry, follow their comments and easily demonstrate the hatred of Jews. I would be right again!

    My conscience is indeed clear, and a Celtic last name is no more American than Gonzalez, or Shama for that matter. So save the patriot act.

    Fran, you started the skirmish, when you quarreled with my position (which was backed by data) that the employment participation rate was back to the 1980s level, explained easily by demographic changes and obsolescence rendered through technological progress. I have not seen an objective counter argument from you, but rather indirect accusations such as :

    a person who promotes status quo policies that are so obviously failures for most of us is assured to not have affiliation with those they benefit

    most of us” i.e., Americans, have had median incomes go up from the crisis period, net worths have improved, home values have risen, unemployment has gotten back to pre-crisis levels and measures of consumer confidence risen above pre-crisis levels. Those are the facts. You called the data spurious and false. We are talking about economic data from the BLS, Fed, CBO, Federal housing authority etc. I called such allegations baseless. If for nothing, anyone thinking rationally , would realise that private enterprise vets and analyses that data to make crucial decisions, don’t you think that they would’ve smelled any tampering?!

    I still await an objective response.

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    • Replies: @Fran Macadam
    What is your purpose?
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  • @KA
    At least Iranain was not trying to shed American blood to win war aginst Iraq in 1980
    "
    The most recent proposal from the Project for a New American Century has certainly struck a nerve among Americans—although that shouldn’t make us think it won’t sail through successfully, like the invasion of Iraq. In a recent press release, PNAC called on the U.S. government to institute the military draft, and induct U.S. servicemen and women directly into the Israeli Defense Force........

    Writing in the New York Sun, Commentary editor Norman Podhoretz described the plan as “bold, candid, and Churchillian,” and urged President Bush to consider adopting it before “Islamo-fascist appeasers, isolationists, and anti-Semites” could rally their opposition. “These nativists will raise once again the tired old cry of ‘dual loyalty’, impugning our patriotism,” warned Podhoretz.

    http://takimag.com/article/the_u.s.-israeli_draft/print#axzz3dwewkgPR

    That piece was a rather droll modest Swiftian suggestion.

    It only happened in the viagra-induced wet dream of one of les anciens.

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  • I think the war in Gaza and the election of a completely fascist government in Israel should have had the left howling and taking real action. There is no peace process. The Israeli emperor has no clothes. If the Palestinians got a state they would still get mowed periodically. No one seems to talk about that. Who is going to stop it? The UN is a joke. The lives of Palestinian children matter very little to it.

    Did you see the story that said the TSA does a very poor job of catching stuff? Its a jobs program and a method in which to condition people to accept intimidation. The spying on personal communications is the same thing. Its voyeurism and a jobs program. It didn’t prevent the Boston bombing and the Russians told them about it. Then there is 9/11, and the story of the moment that claims CIA analyst in Alec Station were stepping out into operations which they knew nothing about and didn’t deal with the terrorist that they knew about which could have prevented 9/11. Its been about 14 years and we still don’t know what exactly happened.

    China is expanding itself economically with mass industrial projects while the US is bleeding to death from militarism. Israel hides behind religion and hundreds of years of persecution. It gets goodies and protection and the Israel lobby supports the merchants of death and voyeurism. Libertarians assume that they can cut off all these addicts from their fix. The puritan work ethic which libertarians prescribe to doesn’t appeal to the left. The love of regulation and technocrats appeals to the left but not to the right. Pat Buchanan embodies everything libertarians and progressives hate about real conservatives. A new compelling vision is needed to overthrow militarism and provide the same intoxicating hit without the harm. I think change can only come from inventing a new and better narrative which knocks the current one off the radar. People need something else to focus on. Israel’s 15 minutes of fame needs to end. Why not compete with China by being productive too? The US wants to be #1 doesn’t it? Obama can give an inspiring speech on it.

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  • Yes, engage in conversations with people of all stripes and not just with people who are identical to yourself. But let us be real here, too. The vast majority of Americans are locked into their little little mindsets and no amount of discussion alone is going to jar them into dealing with major reality. We are all a little like in the situation that Alice confronted, when she fell into the hole.

    In short, we are all essentially impotent and sectarian until the ruling class itself slips up and gets handed its crap back to them from abroad most likely, in a big and traumatic manner for all of us to be sure. Meanwhile the country will sadly enough, keep sleep walking towards that apocalyptic time ahead of us in the rather near future. We cannot really speed up the explosion by all that much…

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  • KA says:

    Ignore Turkey and Brazil: Iran Sanctions Are A Go
    by Mark Dubowitz
    Forbes’ The Energy Source
    May 19, 2010

    But the war agisnt Iran started yeras ago aginst Iran.Perle admitted in Forward in 1998 that the Jeiwsh lobby was in the forefront of assault against Iran.
    Howard berman,Carl Levine,Wrexzler – so called moderate, liberal and democrats started pushing for war in 2007 against Iran . They still continue same tricks using same ploys,and cornering media debate with their conservative brethern. The conservative has been hijacked by the neocons “against their wishes” per the self disclosure by Kristol to advance non -economic and non -social but historical agenda. he gloated how the neocons have got rid of the “arabist” from the State Department. Same time Campus Watchwas getting rid of the ME scholars from the academia . They get Bolton ,Gingrich,Huckabee,Santorum, H Clinton,as gentile faces to articulate their positions .

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  • @Sam Shama
    Well what do think Mr kat? should we? I say that its a hypothetical that requires much more information before we choose the war path,

    btw Unz didn't answer, but perhaps you will on the question of the Physics/Econ swap? what is it?

    I’m just Sancho Panza, remember? You’re the one with the 204 IQ… I’m sure you’ll figure it out!

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I'll have to go through all of your's, Unz's, Mac Adam's cached commentary searching for clues. Perhaps one could use a parsing and search algo......I'll let you know :-)
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  • KA says:
    @Sam Shama
    Iran sent children to clear minefields. Thus the requirement by mullahs to stand ready for self sacrifice

    http://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/1r5mh3/iranian_child_soldiers_head_to_the_front_during/

    At least Iranain was not trying to shed American blood to win war aginst Iraq in 1980

    The most recent proposal from the Project for a New American Century has certainly struck a nerve among Americans—although that shouldn’t make us think it won’t sail through successfully, like the invasion of Iraq. In a recent press release, PNAC called on the U.S. government to institute the military draft, and induct U.S. servicemen and women directly into the Israeli Defense Force……..

    Writing in the New York Sun, Commentary editor Norman Podhoretz described the plan as “bold, candid, and Churchillian,” and urged President Bush to consider adopting it before “Islamo-fascist appeasers, isolationists, and anti-Semites” could rally their opposition. “These nativists will raise once again the tired old cry of ‘dual loyalty’, impugning our patriotism,” warned Podhoretz.

    http://takimag.com/article/the_u.s.-israeli_draft/print#axzz3dwewkgPR

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    • Replies: @Fran Macadam
    That piece was a rather droll modest Swiftian suggestion.

    It only happened in the viagra-induced wet dream of one of les anciens.
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  • @Sam Shama
    certainly apropos of you calling commenters spies. Also many in this country do have a sense of humour, so loqui pro temet

    No doubt whatsoever, that there are propagandists and manipulators who do just that. According to those leaked internal documents, some have trouble with the lack of ethics involved in domestic social engineering carried out against their own countrymen. Hopefully your conscience is clear. And not simply because Americans are not your own people, with your loyalties to another.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama

    No doubt whatsoever, that there are propagandists and manipulators who do just that.
     
    Spies you mean? Yes, I reckon there are those, but then you swiftly assume that anyone whose commentary opposes your view is a spy, a flawed assumption!

    I could call some on this forum anarcho-Marxists, Nazi glorifiers, rejectionists of US culture; and I would be right. I could pick a random entry, follow their comments and easily demonstrate the hatred of Jews. I would be right again!

    My conscience is indeed clear, and a Celtic last name is no more American than Gonzalez, or Shama for that matter. So save the patriot act.

    Fran, you started the skirmish, when you quarreled with my position (which was backed by data) that the employment participation rate was back to the 1980s level, explained easily by demographic changes and obsolescence rendered through technological progress. I have not seen an objective counter argument from you, but rather indirect accusations such as :

    a person who promotes status quo policies that are so obviously failures for most of us is assured to not have affiliation with those they benefit
     
    "most of us" i.e., Americans, have had median incomes go up from the crisis period, net worths have improved, home values have risen, unemployment has gotten back to pre-crisis levels and measures of consumer confidence risen above pre-crisis levels. Those are the facts. You called the data spurious and false. We are talking about economic data from the BLS, Fed, CBO, Federal housing authority etc. I called such allegations baseless. If for nothing, anyone thinking rationally , would realise that private enterprise vets and analyses that data to make crucial decisions, don't you think that they would've smelled any tampering?!

    I still await an objective response.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62
    "Also as I made abundantly clear, I am not opposed to a deal, but not one that hands over the bomb upon expiration of it!"

    So Mr. 204, you are not opposed to a deal with Iran, but you are in fact opposed to the deal with Iran that has been recently negotiated. That said, do you prefer going to war against Iran to prevent it from obtaining a nuclear capability over abiding by the deal?

    Well what do think Mr kat? should we? I say that its a hypothetical that requires much more information before we choose the war path,

    btw Unz didn’t answer, but perhaps you will on the question of the Physics/Econ swap? what is it?

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    • Replies: @geokat62
    I'm just Sancho Panza, remember? You're the one with the 204 IQ... I'm sure you'll figure it out!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.