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    From the most recent Eurobarometer poll [see also other countries]: Strange patterns, at first glance. Even just a few years ago, this map would have been unrecognizable, with East European countries viewing Russia with relatively greater hostility than Western Europe. So what changed? Well, what I suspect happened is a European version of the return...
  • @Bardon Kaldian
    There are no absolute parameters. You have to go with, I'd say, informed public, more-or less general consensus & various author's influences.

    Whitman is, in my opinion, enormously greater writer than Lermontov & his book of life is simply vast, it contains both an Upanishadic sensibility, rough & cruel depictions of reality (epic tradition), transcendence & immanence (if you like, though it is an inflated language).

    But, that's my opinion.

    As for his influence, he is, along with Baudelaire, the most influential 19th C poet. His heirs are not just English-speaking writers like D.H.Lawrence, Eliot, Hart Crane, Henry Miller, ... but also Emile Verhaeren, Neruda & many vitalist poets & novelists, especially after WW1.

    Canonization is a process, but Dostoevsky, for instance, was canonized as supreme writer by a host of other writers (Zweig, R.L. Stevenson, Hamsun, Mann, Kafka, Proust, Andreev, Camus, Faulkner, Garcia Marquez, Leonov, Coetzee, Gaddis, Bellow, Philip Roth, ..).

    Most 20th C Russian literature, even with its most prominent authors (Blok, Akhmatova, Platonov, Remizov, Sholokhov, Pasternak, Mandel'shtam, Solzhenitsyn, Nabokov (Russian phase), Bulgakov, ..) simply is not a match to great sequence of American authors, going from late phase of Henry James to Gaddis, McCarthy or Updike. American writers are more read & influential, and this is simply a fact.

    I agree with inertial on the topic of the 20th century Russian literature. It is awesome. I discovered some of it only due to university lectures, and those were among the best books I’ve ever read. Profound, thought-provoking and quite often heart-rending in a way I hadn’t thought possible for works of literary art to be. I’m not speaking about the most prominent, i.e. the best-known, authors though. Being more influential does not always equal being better.

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  • @melanf

    Why in places like Oslo, the average modern architecture are just simple and quite functional, and designed for living needs.
    https://www.google.ru/maps/@59.9281153,10.7278328,3a,75y,320.72h,93.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5-nfOoQG7Wenif__ZtHp5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
     
    Disgustingly. Here is a village for rich people near Moscow

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    https://b.radikal.ru/b40/1803/7e/d8af049cafdd.png

    https://a.radikal.ru/a11/1803/64/66046a10b5a8.png

    https://a.radikal.ru/a01/1803/4d/7190854dbcb6.png

    https://b.radikal.ru/b16/1803/74/2fc02fbe31ac.png

    https://a.radikal.ru/a21/1803/fa/0d8390eda3e2.png

    https://a.radikal.ru/a20/1803/67/83a785d39372.png
    The Norwegian people with their money had to build something like that. But they're building improved "хрущобы".

    I am not a fan of this project. It is too much, over the top, fake French architecture. .

    If I have the budget to buy in that project, I would prefer to buy in real historical building. And not pretend to be French nobility of the 18th century.

    The authenticity is important in architecture.

    If a building is new, why would it pretend to from 18th century France .

    Architecture should represent the historical spirit of the time from when it was built.

    Also exteriors of the khrushchoby were not so bad when they were new, and they represented the historical period – the problem is quality of construction, total over-repetition of the same design, and now their urban decay.

    Oslo buildings do not look like this or have decay. They represent the different historical periods in a simple way and the people keep it in good conditions.

    Walk around for a few minutes in Oslo – the city is attractive, clean, and buildings represent different historical periods and history of city.

    https://www.google.ru/maps/@59.9281153,10.7278328,3a,75y,320.72h,93.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5-nfOoQG7Wenif__ZtHp5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

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  • @Dmitry

    But in the West, evaluate as a masterpiece painting “Black square” and build such monumental buildings (St Bride’s Church, “one of the finest examples of British twentieth-century ecclesiastical architecture” )

     

    Why in places like Oslo, the average modern architecture are just simple and quite functional, and designed for living needs.

    https://www.google.ru/maps/@59.9281153,10.7278328,3a,75y,320.72h,93.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5-nfOoQG7Wenif__ZtHp5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

    You can walk around whole city - they fit together modern and older buildings quite simply there.

    This is the normal way people build for centuries. It doesn't offend, but serves the purpose.

    The problem in the modern architecture, is the megalomania of architects, combined with their bad taste.

    The solution is for more humble architecture and simple tastes.

    The issue here is that architecture is a public art-form and should be pleasing and functional - it's not like a painting or 'personal artform'.

    Why in places like Oslo, the average modern architecture are just simple and quite functional, and designed for living needs.

    https://www.google.ru/maps/@59.9281153,10.7278328,3a,75y,320.72h,93.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5-nfOoQG7Wenif__ZtHp5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

    Disgustingly. Here is a village for rich people near Moscow
    The Norwegian people with their money had to build something like that. But they’re building improved “хрущобы”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    I am not a fan of this project. It is too much, over the top, fake French architecture. .

    If I have the budget to buy in that project, I would prefer to buy in real historical building. And not pretend to be French nobility of the 18th century.

    The authenticity is important in architecture.

    If a building is new, why would it pretend to from 18th century France .

    Architecture should represent the historical spirit of the time from when it was built.

    Also exteriors of the khrushchoby were not so bad when they were new, and they represented the historical period - the problem is quality of construction, total over-repetition of the same design, and now their urban decay.

    Oslo buildings do not look like this or have decay. They represent the different historical periods in a simple way and the people keep it in good conditions.

    Walk around for a few minutes in Oslo - the city is attractive, clean, and buildings represent different historical periods and history of city.

    https://www.google.ru/maps/@59.9281153,10.7278328,3a,75y,320.72h,93.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5-nfOoQG7Wenif__ZtHp5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

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  • @Daniel Chieh

    Lol, the Japanese despise Americans. Japan also has a rich literature of the “noble loser” – as an American, you couldn’t understand such refinement.
     
    Mr. Karlin is Russian.

    as an American, you couldn’t understand such refinement.

    Says the half-Catholic Buddhist Cathar.

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  • @Daniel Chieh

    Lol, the Japanese despise Americans. Japan also has a rich literature of the “noble loser” – as an American, you couldn’t understand such refinement.
     
    Mr. Karlin is Russian.

    “Compatriots” who do not actually live in Russia, and apparently Felix Keverich (who does live in Russia) doesn’t count.

    Saker sounds like he doesn’t even live in a different country, but in a different universe from one the rest of us inhabit.

    Mr. Karlin is Russian.

    He grew up in America? But he says in an earlier post how he lives in Moscow – so really he is an inhabitant of a more civilized state within a state.

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  • @melanf

    Both examples would be called kitsch in the West. I have to say that the building is… a bit… over the top, for a modern structure.
     
    But in the West, evaluate as a masterpiece painting "Black square" and build such monumental buildings (St Bride's Church, "one of the finest examples of British twentieth-century ecclesiastical architecture" )
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/St_Brides_EK05.jpg

    And this Western architectural genius rebuilt Cologne
    http://i.imgur.com/3O3CWBu.jpg

    Because of this, I don't care about rating of art in the "West".
    Architecture in Russia has certainly benefited from the fact that now people can build a "kitsch" for their tastes, instead of nightmares Le Corbusier and Bauhaus.

    And the painting won, as artists no longer have to paint workers and revolutionaries.
    Here the final works of students Of St. Petersburg Academy of Arts in 2016 is Clearly better than social realism
    https://yura-falyosa.livejournal.com/1500684.html

    But in the West, evaluate as a masterpiece painting “Black square” and build such monumental buildings (St Bride’s Church, “one of the finest examples of British twentieth-century ecclesiastical architecture” )

    Why in places like Oslo, the average modern architecture are just simple and quite functional, and designed for living needs.

    https://www.google.ru/maps/@59.9281153,10.7278328,3a,75y,320.72h,93.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5-nfOoQG7Wenif__ZtHp5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

    You can walk around whole city – they fit together modern and older buildings quite simply there.

    This is the normal way people build for centuries. It doesn’t offend, but serves the purpose.

    The problem in the modern architecture, is the megalomania of architects, combined with their bad taste.

    The solution is for more humble architecture and simple tastes.

    The issue here is that architecture is a public art-form and should be pleasing and functional – it’s not like a painting or ‘personal artform’.

    Read More
    • Replies: @melanf

    Why in places like Oslo, the average modern architecture are just simple and quite functional, and designed for living needs.
    https://www.google.ru/maps/@59.9281153,10.7278328,3a,75y,320.72h,93.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5-nfOoQG7Wenif__ZtHp5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
     
    Disgustingly. Here is a village for rich people near Moscow

    https://c.radikal.ru/c31/1803/43/9ed5ee9df9eb.png

    https://d.radikal.ru/d33/1803/f7/fc743f98a9d4.png

    https://c.radikal.ru/c32/1803/ff/f3a5cffa5e09.png

    https://b.radikal.ru/b40/1803/7e/d8af049cafdd.png

    https://a.radikal.ru/a11/1803/64/66046a10b5a8.png

    https://a.radikal.ru/a01/1803/4d/7190854dbcb6.png

    https://b.radikal.ru/b16/1803/74/2fc02fbe31ac.png

    https://a.radikal.ru/a21/1803/fa/0d8390eda3e2.png

    https://a.radikal.ru/a20/1803/67/83a785d39372.png
    The Norwegian people with their money had to build something like that. But they're building improved "хрущобы".

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  • @melanf

    And popular culture in Russia become noticeably even more popularist and trashy just over last 10 years.
     
    This is not true. Russian cinema collapsed into the abyss (it happened 30 years ago), but literature successfully competes with American literature (in Russia). Industry TV series and cartoons also developing successfully.
    Painting today is marginal art, but the collapse of communism went to the benefit of painting
    http://tot-gallery.ru/images/737234_novoselov-hudozhnik.jpg
    For the architecture, too
    http://fototerra.ru/photo/Russia/Hrjaschevka/medium-251836.jpg

    And popular culture in Russia become noticeably even more popularist and trashy just over last 10 years.

    This is not true. Russian cinema collapsed into the abyss (it happened 30 years ago), but literature successfully competes with American literature (in Russia). Industry TV series and cartoons also developing successfully.
    Painting today is marginal art, but the collapse of communism went to the benefit of painting.

    Popular culture (masses’ culture). Fine arts is not popular culture, but high-culture (elitest culture).

    Size of audience of high culture is shrinking around the world, but also quality of popular culture itself is becoming for ever shorter attention span and greater shocks/trashiness. Much of the television shows get worse all the time, although some TV series and documentaries can be getting better.

    In the area of cinema, there are still talented directors, but this is not reflected in ticket sales or official attitudes.

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  • @inertial
    I like much of Bauhaus. Did you mean Brutalism?

    Those students' works are nice but highly derivative (which is fine, as they are students.)

    My opinion is, you can't keep on forever rebuilding Florence or Mad King Ludwig's castle. Gotta do something new. Or, at the very least, a different kind of old. For example, I think there is not enough Art Deco in the world.

    My opinion is, you can’t keep on forever rebuilding Florence or Mad King Ludwig’s castle. Gotta do something new. Or, at the very least, a different kind of old. For example, I think there is not enough Art Deco in the world.

    This is not rebuilding Florence.

    It is just making fake historical designs on the exterior of the buildings. It is a Disneyland or film set.

    So that if you take a blurry photo from a distance, it looks at least not terrible, just like Disney.

    But if you go closer it is, then you realize it is a film set and not a real building, and with really bad taste.

    (Click on photo to enlarge)

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  • @melanf
    Here is Yoshkar Ola a provincial Soviet city.
    http://i12.pixs.ru/storage/0/8/5/sdLKOFOT9Q_2632165_29518085.jpg


    In the 2000s, the local Governor became a madman who considered himself the reincarnation of Lorenzo Medici. Here are the official portraits of Leonid the Magnificent
    https://static.7x7-journal.ru/images/items/94135/files/553.jpg
    https://www.rospres.org/media/k2/items/imageart/2ab751909f64ca819022f906cb95ea05.jpg

    Can be read "motto" of Leonid - " He liked the beauty in this surly world"

    And here's how this weirdo rebuilt Yoshkar Ola (before he was sent to prison for embezzlement of money)

    http://i12.pixs.ru/storage/2/1/2/B2GsHNIUAI_2317522_29518212.jpg

    http://i12.pixs.ru/storage/2/1/8/lSPQckJVOw_7751252_29518218.jpg

    http://i12.pixs.ru/storage/2/2/4/oy4zae8XAY_3448120_29518224.jpg

    That is, even the work of the madman more interesting than Bauhaus

    The fake buildings in Yoshkar-Ola are incredibly ugly though, especially from close up where it becomes obvious that they fakes (modern buildings) made to very low quality standards to parody old ones.

    The only people who would fall for it are people who have never visited a real historical city. It is like a low quality, cheap parody Disney Land, that could fall apart from poor construction standards.

    When people make those fake buildings, it just makes you wish you visit real historical buildings and not the fakes. I.e. to visit a real city, and not a fake one.

    As for Bauhaus – it is a movement from the 1920s. The real Bauhaus buildings are quite interesting, as they capture the philosophy and world-view of the 1920s people.

    They also made some interesting things like chairs and furniture which you can see if you visit the museum in Berlin.

    The movement which is really ugly is the Brutalist school movement in architecture which dominated from the 1950s.

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  • @Mikhail
    Interesting and in line with my understanding of these instances you bring up. Thanks for the follow-up.

    Just to confirm further that your understanding is the correct one and why:
    “The Panagia Portaitissa (Greek: Παναγία Πορταΐτισσα; Georgian: ივერიის ღვთისმშობლის ხატი) or the Iviron Theotokos is an Eastern Orthodox icon of the Virgin Mary which was painted by Luke the Evangelist, according to the Sacred Tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church. The icon is referred to as “Wonderworking” meaning that numerous miracles have been attributed to the intercession of the Theotokos (Mother of God) by persons praying before it. The original of this image is found in the Georgian Iviron monastery on Mount Athos in Greece, where it is believed to have been since the year 999. The synaxis (feast day) for this icon is on February 12, as well as on Bright Tuesday, and also on October 13 for the translation to Moscow of the Iveron icon”.
    [The Moscow one is actually an exact copy, commissioned by the Patriarch Nikon in 1648]. “Almost immediately upon its arrival on October 13, the icon was “glorified” with numerous miracles attributed to it by the faithful. The Iverskaya Chapel was built in 1669 to enshrine the icon next to the Kremlin walls in Moscow. The chapel was the main entrance to Red Square and traditionally everyone, from the Tsar down to the lowest peasant would stop there to venerate the icon before entering the square. After the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917, the chapel was destroyed by the Communists and the fate of the icon is unknown to this day”. Copies of it continue to perform miracles even today (like the copy of the Montreal Myrrh-streaming Iveron Icon, presently in the Church of Holy Theotokos of Iveron Russian Orthodox Church in Honolulu, Hawaii).

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  • @DFH

    Pilsudski wanted a Polish version of the Soviet dominated Warsaw Pact, in the form of subservient countries lacking power to challenge Polish aims.
     
    Just stop the false equivalence. Pilsudski never wanted to impose (Jewish-run) dictatorships on the other members of the Intermarium like Stalin did with the Warsaw Pact states. There was a good reason for an alliance between the Intermarium countries as they were surrounded by much larger, agressive neighbours.


    Minsk has no business being part of Poland
     
    Large numbers of Poles lived there. A Belarusian state wasn't viable, and Belarusians were certainly much better off in Poland than the USSR.

    Concerning the pre-Soviet period, most ethnic Belarusians would disagree with your assessment that they were better off under Polish rule than that of the Russian Empire or pre-Mongol Rus period. Poles weren’t the majority in Minsk, as well as not being the majority in all of Belarus.

    The period between two world wars is generally understood to haven’t been so good towards non-Poles in Poland. That said, I don’t disagree that the USSR of that period wasn’t (in overall terms) a more desirable place to live.

    Believe what you want. The Lithuanians, CzechoSlovaks and Ukrainians en masse didn’t think so positively of Poland in the inter-war years. The initial Soviet entry into Polish controlled areas in 1939 didn’t see much opposition from non-Poles. On the other hand, the Nazis faced greater resistance when they attacked, on account that they went into comparatively larger concentrated ethnic Polsh areas, willing to fight for Poland.

    You’re giving a romanticized Polish version of how people like Pilsudski saw Poland relative to some others. He was mistaken for thinking that Poland could either fully acquire his desired goal or maintain it for a long period. A country like Russia is just too big and strong, while having a sufficient patriotically inclined population to resist imperial negativity against it.

    Russia has had some periodic down and out moments, only to comeback.

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  • @Mikhail
    Pilsudski wanted a Polish version of the Soviet dominated Warsaw Pact, in the form of subservient countries lacking power to challenge Polish aims. There's a reason why Poland's relations with Lithuania and CzechoSlovakia between the two world wars weren't so good.

    The bottom line is that Pilsudski nixed the idea of a Polish-White alliance that might very well have changed the outcome of the Russian Civil War, in addition to improving Russian-Polish relations. Denikin in particular had openly been critical of some of the Russian Empire's policies towards Poland.

    Minsk has no business being part of Poland. Petliura needed Pilsudski, because Petliura didn't have such great support within the former Russian Empire part of Ukraine. In turn, Pilsudski was seeking an anti-Russian puppet in Ukraine. Petliura agreeing to let all of Galicia go was icing on the cake for Pilsudski.

    I'm not not aware of Denikin saying in 1919 (as well as before or after), that Pilsudski should withdraw from half of all the land Pilsudski got where Poles weren't in the majority.

    Pilsudski wanted a Polish version of the Soviet dominated Warsaw Pact, in the form of subservient countries lacking power to challenge Polish aims.

    Just stop the false equivalence. Pilsudski never wanted to impose (Jewish-run) dictatorships on the other members of the Intermarium like Stalin did with the Warsaw Pact states. There was a good reason for an alliance between the Intermarium countries as they were surrounded by much larger, agressive neighbours.

    Minsk has no business being part of Poland

    Large numbers of Poles lived there. A Belarusian state wasn’t viable, and Belarusians were certainly much better off in Poland than the USSR.

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    • Replies: @Mikhail
    Concerning the pre-Soviet period, most ethnic Belarusians would disagree with your assessment that they were better off under Polish rule than that of the Russian Empire or pre-Mongol Rus period. Poles weren't the majority in Minsk, as well as not being the majority in all of Belarus.

    The period between two world wars is generally understood to haven't been so good towards non-Poles in Poland. That said, I don't disagree that the USSR of that period wasn't (in overall terms) a more desirable place to live.

    Believe what you want. The Lithuanians, CzechoSlovaks and Ukrainians en masse didn't think so positively of Poland in the inter-war years. The initial Soviet entry into Polish controlled areas in 1939 didn't see much opposition from non-Poles. On the other hand, the Nazis faced greater resistance when they attacked, on account that they went into comparatively larger concentrated ethnic Polsh areas, willing to fight for Poland.

    You're giving a romanticized Polish version of how people like Pilsudski saw Poland relative to some others. He was mistaken for thinking that Poland could either fully acquire his desired goal or maintain it for a long period. A country like Russia is just too big and strong, while having a sufficient patriotically inclined population to resist imperial negativity against it.

    Russia has had some periodic down and out moments, only to comeback.

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  • @melanf

    It was violated because Polish army which entered Moscow was at that point mob of undisciplined
     
    The agreement was immediately violated by the Polish king (who decided to become tsar instead of Wladyslaw)

    Well, I did that already – that Zygmunt was angered by the agreement and wanted to become tzar personally.

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  • @szopen
    It was violated because Polish army which entered Moscow was at that point mob of undisciplined fighters who thought they are invincible ubermenschen, so they started to behave as stupid thugs in a conquered and subdued state - the hetman who signed the agreement IIRC was disgusted too by their behaviour.

    It was violated because Polish army which entered Moscow was at that point mob of undisciplined

    The agreement was immediately violated by the Polish king (who decided to become tsar instead of Wladyslaw)

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    • Replies: @szopen
    Well, I did that already - that Zygmunt was angered by the agreement and wanted to become tzar personally.
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  • @Anon

    Such validation is my contribution to Anatoly ‘s mental health.
     
    If you wonder why people sometimes consider you a troll, this is it, right here.

    If you wonder why people sometimes consider you a troll, this is it, right here.

    Trolling is the very best thing about the internet, and trolls should be praised rather than condemned.

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  • @AaronB
    He has been thoroughly Americanized during his time in America, as his Russian compatriots attest on other threads. He has been assimilated into the Borg.

    Life in America is a constant series of assaults to your amygdala - the lizard part of the brain that deals with primitive emotions like status, survival, fear. It's a traumatic experience that hollows you out from the inside. Few people escape unscathed, and many succumb entirely. It's how psychopathic behavior spreads - to survive, you must join them. It has claimed our good Anatoly.

    It is possible that life in Russia will allow the anxiety to subside, as hits to Anatoly's amygdala grow less, and he will become less obsessed with being the "winner". But it will take years.

    In the meantime, I for one intend to pacify Anatoly - you are the winner, Anatoly, you have defeated your enemies, we all recognize your unbounded superiority.

    Such validation is my contribution to Anatoly 's mental health.

    Such validation is my contribution to Anatoly ‘s mental health.

    If you wonder why people sometimes consider you a troll, this is it, right here.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson


    If you wonder why people sometimes consider you a troll, this is it, right here.
     
    Trolling is the very best thing about the internet, and trolls should be praised rather than condemned.
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  • @szopen

    Pilsudski used the talks with the Whites as a charade to appease some in the West
     
    No. Pilsudski wanted to achieve his ideal, unachieveable Federation. He wanted intermarium, with Poland-Lithuania-Belarus-Ukraine, with Vilnius probably being part of independent Lithuania which would be part of a federation. How that would work in practice? Most likely he had no idea.

    He negotiated both with whites and reds. Reds offered better terms, so he stopped the offensive. IF whites would offer different terms, he would go with whites - though most likely in very limited sense (see (2) below).

    However:

    (1) Denikin stance was very unrealistic and unelastic. His stance was basically: we want you to help us, and in return you can keep half of what you already have.

    (2) In 1919 Polish army was not, in fact, capable of large actions. I do not say they were totally impossible, but logistical difficulties were a factor which also had impact on Pilsudski's plans.

    I said that the Whites supported an independent Poland, without making specifics on borders – a touchy issue.
     

    Yes, you right. I misrepresented what you have written in that matter, sorry.

    However, in place on Poland, knowing only what Poles knew in 1919 and seeing Denikin stance (withdraw from Ukraine! Help us, and in return we will recognise you are independence, but you will have to give back half of what you already have) would you really be so eager to help Denikin?

    You may have written Petlura sold out Galician Ukrainians, but he was realist: he knew that he had no much power, he saw that only Pilsudski supported independent, non-communist Ukraine, hence he decided to act realistically.

    In fact I would prefer our politicians to behave more often like him: if Pilsudski would act realistically, then the war would be stopped in 1919, with Minsk on Polish side, and without thousands of dead lost in Kiev offensive and aftermath. Not to mention possibility of different outcome of plebiscite in Eastern Prussia or possibility of concentrating on Zaolzie more.

    EDIT: official vs unofficial: Polish mission to Denikin had no right to negotiate, agree to anything etc. They were not - I do not knwo ENglish terms - plenipotentiaries.

    Pilsudski wanted a Polish version of the Soviet dominated Warsaw Pact, in the form of subservient countries lacking power to challenge Polish aims. There’s a reason why Poland’s relations with Lithuania and CzechoSlovakia between the two world wars weren’t so good.

    The bottom line is that Pilsudski nixed the idea of a Polish-White alliance that might very well have changed the outcome of the Russian Civil War, in addition to improving Russian-Polish relations. Denikin in particular had openly been critical of some of the Russian Empire’s policies towards Poland.

    Minsk has no business being part of Poland. Petliura needed Pilsudski, because Petliura didn’t have such great support within the former Russian Empire part of Ukraine. In turn, Pilsudski was seeking an anti-Russian puppet in Ukraine. Petliura agreeing to let all of Galicia go was icing on the cake for Pilsudski.

    I’m not not aware of Denikin saying in 1919 (as well as before or after), that Pilsudski should withdraw from half of all the land Pilsudski got where Poles weren’t in the majority.

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    • Replies: @DFH

    Pilsudski wanted a Polish version of the Soviet dominated Warsaw Pact, in the form of subservient countries lacking power to challenge Polish aims.
     
    Just stop the false equivalence. Pilsudski never wanted to impose (Jewish-run) dictatorships on the other members of the Intermarium like Stalin did with the Warsaw Pact states. There was a good reason for an alliance between the Intermarium countries as they were surrounded by much larger, agressive neighbours.


    Minsk has no business being part of Poland
     
    Large numbers of Poles lived there. A Belarusian state wasn't viable, and Belarusians were certainly much better off in Poland than the USSR.
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  • @Mr. Hack
    Not really Mickey, the author, does more than an adequate job of discrediting your biased and inaccurate views:

    Srebrenica genocide denier and a collumnist for the Serb-nationalist web site Serbianna, Michael Averko (aka: Mike Averko), has been circulating unsolicited emails trying to discredit a world renowned scholar, Dr Marko Attila Hoare. Apparently, he was upset because Dr Hoare condemned Averko's Srebrenica Genocide denial comments at Global Voices. After embarrassing himself on Global Voices and admitting that he has reduced himself to a Srebrenica genocide denier, he quickly run away to Guardian forums and opened a new topic attempting to rally support from other deniers, revisionists, and conspiracy theorists. As a result, Dr Marko Attila Hoare responded by issuing a statement on his blog, condemning ongoing Srebrenica genocide denial, and Michael Averko's unsolicited spam.


    Michael Averko's actions are calculated, but useless, considering that in his E-mail he refers to the United Nation's International Criminal Tribunal "kangaroo court," and praises himself as being "considerably more objective than Hoare." But, even a fool knows that if Michael Averko had any objectivity, dignity, or intelligence, he wouldn't be what he is - a pathetic Srebrenica genocide denier and an apologist for radical ultra-nationalist Serbian politics in the Balkans.
     

    Factually, there’s absolutely nothing in that troll’s screed which successfully refutes what I said.

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  • @melanf

    Later it’s true that Zygmunt personally wanted to convert Russia into catholicism, but Polish king, while not totally powerless, was opposed in that matter by pretty much all other Polish sources of power – the commander of Polish army, for example, pretty much ignored Zygmunt when negotiating agreement with Russian boyars (an agreement which included demand that Władysław would have to accept orthodox faith before becoming tzar – which angered his father Zygmunt, who was kind of religious fanatic).
     
    "agreement with Russian boyars" were tricked, with the goal of capturing Moscow. As soon as Polish troops entered the city the agreement was violated.

    It was violated because Polish army which entered Moscow was at that point mob of undisciplined fighters who thought they are invincible ubermenschen, so they started to behave as stupid thugs in a conquered and subdued state – the hetman who signed the agreement IIRC was disgusted too by their behaviour.

    Read More
    • Replies: @melanf

    It was violated because Polish army which entered Moscow was at that point mob of undisciplined
     
    The agreement was immediately violated by the Polish king (who decided to become tsar instead of Wladyslaw)
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  • @szopen
    When Poland tried to polonize Russia and eliminate orthodox Church? I mean "Poland" in contrast to "some Polish priests", "Vatican wanted Poland to do it" or "some private magnates".

    If you mean Smuta (the only example where you could argue for the second, though not for the first position), then remember that at first it was private enterprise of few magnates. Later it's true that Zygmunt personally wanted to convert Russia into catholicism, but Polish king, while not totally powerless, was opposed in that matter by pretty much all other Polish sources of power - the commander of Polish army, for example, pretty much ignored Zygmunt when negotiating agreement with Russian boyars (an agreement which included demand that Władysław would have to accept orthodox faith before becoming tzar - which angered his father Zygmunt, who was kind of religious fanatic).

    Later it’s true that Zygmunt personally wanted to convert Russia into catholicism, but Polish king, while not totally powerless, was opposed in that matter by pretty much all other Polish sources of power – the commander of Polish army, for example, pretty much ignored Zygmunt when negotiating agreement with Russian boyars (an agreement which included demand that Władysław would have to accept orthodox faith before becoming tzar – which angered his father Zygmunt, who was kind of religious fanatic).

    “agreement with Russian boyars” were tricked, with the goal of capturing Moscow. As soon as Polish troops entered the city the agreement was violated.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    It was violated because Polish army which entered Moscow was at that point mob of undisciplined fighters who thought they are invincible ubermenschen, so they started to behave as stupid thugs in a conquered and subdued state - the hetman who signed the agreement IIRC was disgusted too by their behaviour.
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  • @Bardon Kaldian
    There are no absolute parameters. You have to go with, I'd say, informed public, more-or less general consensus & various author's influences.

    Whitman is, in my opinion, enormously greater writer than Lermontov & his book of life is simply vast, it contains both an Upanishadic sensibility, rough & cruel depictions of reality (epic tradition), transcendence & immanence (if you like, though it is an inflated language).

    But, that's my opinion.

    As for his influence, he is, along with Baudelaire, the most influential 19th C poet. His heirs are not just English-speaking writers like D.H.Lawrence, Eliot, Hart Crane, Henry Miller, ... but also Emile Verhaeren, Neruda & many vitalist poets & novelists, especially after WW1.

    Canonization is a process, but Dostoevsky, for instance, was canonized as supreme writer by a host of other writers (Zweig, R.L. Stevenson, Hamsun, Mann, Kafka, Proust, Andreev, Camus, Faulkner, Garcia Marquez, Leonov, Coetzee, Gaddis, Bellow, Philip Roth, ..).

    Most 20th C Russian literature, even with its most prominent authors (Blok, Akhmatova, Platonov, Remizov, Sholokhov, Pasternak, Mandel'shtam, Solzhenitsyn, Nabokov (Russian phase), Bulgakov, ..) simply is not a match to great sequence of American authors, going from late phase of Henry James to Gaddis, McCarthy or Updike. American writers are more read & influential, and this is simply a fact.

    1. You are comparing literature in your native language vs. literature in translation.

    2. It is unlikely you know much about the 20th century Russian literature. For example, some of the best books written in Russian in the last 70 years are the WWII novels – Bondarev, Bykov, Vasiliev, Kurochkin, Nekrasov (the other one,) Kazakevich, etc. Some of these books had even been translated (John Derbyshire had read a few of them.)

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  • @Beckow
    There were 3 million members of Communist Party in Poland in the 1980's. All Jews? When 10% of your population joins a party that you claim occupied Poland, I am having some doubts about whether you are telling the whole truth.

    And this weird vignette from 19th century:


    anyone who taught or studied the Polish language was in danger of being sent to Siberia
     
    Really? It is simply not true, schools in Polish language functioned and nobody was forbidding the Polish language (maybe in the German part). Polish aristocrats were very numerous and over-represented in the Russia's elite. That was partially a function of their large numbers and the fact that Russian tsars honoured their status when taking over Poland.

    And those takeovers in 18th century: wasn't there always a large Polish party that asked for Russia, Germany, Austria, Sweden (whomever) to take over the Polish throne? I don't recall the details, but I believe the three partitions had a substantial domestic component, 'schlachta' shopping around for the best deal for themselves and abandoning the common people and Polish identity.

    We all like to blame the evil foreigners for our misfortunes. Some of it is true, but often there are also domestic reasons. In Poland the internal strife has always been an issue. Even today they are ready to tear each other apart.

    wasn’t there always a large Polish party that asked for Russia, Germany, Austria, Sweden (whomever) to take over the Polish throne?

    The Polish monarchy was elective. The Sejm (Polish parliament) was made up of the country’s allodial landowners. The Polish nobility were not feudatories of their monarch, as nobles in western Europe were. Rather, each was like a petty king on his own lands. The liberum veto was often an obstacle to action. When, for reasons of rivalries amongst themselves, the Polish nobles could not agree on the election of one of their own as king, as a compromise the crown was sometimes offered to a foreign prince.

    Thus, in 1573, the French prince Henri de Valois was elected king of Poland; he served from 1573 – 1575, abdicating after his elder brother Charles IX died and he succeeded to the throne of France as Henri III. From 1587 – 1668, several princes of the Swedish house of Vasa served as kings of Poland.

    The election of a foreign prince did not entail the surrender of Polish sovereignty to a foreign country. The Polish monarch enjoyed relatively limited powers, rather like the doge of Venice. He had, for example, to obtain permission from the Sejm to travel outside the country. Poland was in practice governed by its aristocracy, rather than by its king.

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  • @melanf
    Here is Yoshkar Ola a provincial Soviet city.
    http://i12.pixs.ru/storage/0/8/5/sdLKOFOT9Q_2632165_29518085.jpg


    In the 2000s, the local Governor became a madman who considered himself the reincarnation of Lorenzo Medici. Here are the official portraits of Leonid the Magnificent
    https://static.7x7-journal.ru/images/items/94135/files/553.jpg
    https://www.rospres.org/media/k2/items/imageart/2ab751909f64ca819022f906cb95ea05.jpg

    Can be read "motto" of Leonid - " He liked the beauty in this surly world"

    And here's how this weirdo rebuilt Yoshkar Ola (before he was sent to prison for embezzlement of money)

    http://i12.pixs.ru/storage/2/1/2/B2GsHNIUAI_2317522_29518212.jpg

    http://i12.pixs.ru/storage/2/1/8/lSPQckJVOw_7751252_29518218.jpg

    http://i12.pixs.ru/storage/2/2/4/oy4zae8XAY_3448120_29518224.jpg

    That is, even the work of the madman more interesting than Bauhaus

    I like much of Bauhaus. Did you mean Brutalism?

    Those students’ works are nice but highly derivative (which is fine, as they are students.)

    My opinion is, you can’t keep on forever rebuilding Florence or Mad King Ludwig’s castle. Gotta do something new. Or, at the very least, a different kind of old. For example, I think there is not enough Art Deco in the world.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    My opinion is, you can’t keep on forever rebuilding Florence or Mad King Ludwig’s castle. Gotta do something new. Or, at the very least, a different kind of old. For example, I think there is not enough Art Deco in the world.
     
    This is not rebuilding Florence.

    It is just making fake historical designs on the exterior of the buildings. It is a Disneyland or film set.

    So that if you take a blurry photo from a distance, it looks at least not terrible, just like Disney.

    But if you go closer it is, then you realize it is a film set and not a real building, and with really bad taste.

    (Click on photo to enlarge)


    https://varlamov.me/2015/jola_ploh/05.jpg

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  • @German_reader
    Yeah, it's a bit premature to talk of an "empire with global power projection capabilities" as Richard Spencer does when you've got not much more than a Twitter account. Also quite off-putting to "normies".

    when you’ve got not much more than a Twitter account

    And subject to deletion by people who are in most respects your mortal enemies.

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  • @Mikhail
    One troll (you) referencing another, minus any successful rebuke of what I've actually said on the subject:

    https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201507091024399030/

    http://silentcrownews.com/wordpress/?p=4712

    Not really Mickey, the author, does more than an adequate job of discrediting your biased and inaccurate views:

    Srebrenica genocide denier and a collumnist for the Serb-nationalist web site Serbianna, Michael Averko (aka: Mike Averko), has been circulating unsolicited emails trying to discredit a world renowned scholar, Dr Marko Attila Hoare. Apparently, he was upset because Dr Hoare condemned Averko’s Srebrenica Genocide denial comments at Global Voices. After embarrassing himself on Global Voices and admitting that he has reduced himself to a Srebrenica genocide denier, he quickly run away to Guardian forums and opened a new topic attempting to rally support from other deniers, revisionists, and conspiracy theorists. As a result, Dr Marko Attila Hoare responded by issuing a statement on his blog, condemning ongoing Srebrenica genocide denial, and Michael Averko’s unsolicited spam.

    Michael Averko’s actions are calculated, but useless, considering that in his E-mail he refers to the United Nation’s International Criminal Tribunal “kangaroo court,” and praises himself as being “considerably more objective than Hoare.” But, even a fool knows that if Michael Averko had any objectivity, dignity, or intelligence, he wouldn’t be what he is – a pathetic Srebrenica genocide denier and an apologist for radical ultra-nationalist Serbian politics in the Balkans.

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    • Replies: @Mikhail
    Factually, there's absolutely nothing in that troll's screed which successfully refutes what I said.
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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    Le based Hitler was vegetarian.

    I'm nowhere near as hardcore and just avoid pork.

    I’m nowhere near as hardcore and just avoid pork.

    Aha, so the (((plot thickens)))…

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    I shall check it out. Thank you for the recommendation!

    I shall check it out. Thank you for the recommendation!

    By the way, are you aware that Archive.org has a free online lending library of more than 1.5 million books. You can borrow the book at:

    https://archive.org/search.php?query=title%3A%28Barbarians%29%20AND%20creator%3A%28terry%20jones%29

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  • @Mikhail
    What's your definition of official versus non-official? At the time, the Whites and Poles had known talks much unlike the then secret Polish-Bolshe variant.

    Pilsudski used the talks with the Whites as a charade to appease some in the West (like Churchill) desiring for a White/Polish anti-Bolshe military alliance. His mind was set on doing the secret deal with the Bolshes.

    In point of fact, I said that the Whites supported an independent Poland, without making specifics on borders - a touchy issue. As you know, Galicia had areas where Ukrainians were the majority. After Petliura sold out the Galician Ukrainians to Pilsudski, the Galician Ukrainian army en masse came under the general commends of the Whites, who treated the Galician Ukrainians as a foreign group albeit with earlier ties to Rus, of which modern day Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are descended from.

    Pilsudski used the talks with the Whites as a charade to appease some in the West

    No. Pilsudski wanted to achieve his ideal, unachieveable Federation. He wanted intermarium, with Poland-Lithuania-Belarus-Ukraine, with Vilnius probably being part of independent Lithuania which would be part of a federation. How that would work in practice? Most likely he had no idea.

    He negotiated both with whites and reds. Reds offered better terms, so he stopped the offensive. IF whites would offer different terms, he would go with whites – though most likely in very limited sense (see (2) below).

    However:

    (1) Denikin stance was very unrealistic and unelastic. His stance was basically: we want you to help us, and in return you can keep half of what you already have.

    (2) In 1919 Polish army was not, in fact, capable of large actions. I do not say they were totally impossible, but logistical difficulties were a factor which also had impact on Pilsudski’s plans.

    I said that the Whites supported an independent Poland, without making specifics on borders – a touchy issue.

    Yes, you right. I misrepresented what you have written in that matter, sorry.

    However, in place on Poland, knowing only what Poles knew in 1919 and seeing Denikin stance (withdraw from Ukraine! Help us, and in return we will recognise you are independence, but you will have to give back half of what you already have) would you really be so eager to help Denikin?

    You may have written Petlura sold out Galician Ukrainians, but he was realist: he knew that he had no much power, he saw that only Pilsudski supported independent, non-communist Ukraine, hence he decided to act realistically.

    In fact I would prefer our politicians to behave more often like him: if Pilsudski would act realistically, then the war would be stopped in 1919, with Minsk on Polish side, and without thousands of dead lost in Kiev offensive and aftermath. Not to mention possibility of different outcome of plebiscite in Eastern Prussia or possibility of concentrating on Zaolzie more.

    EDIT: official vs unofficial: Polish mission to Denikin had no right to negotiate, agree to anything etc. They were not – I do not knwo ENglish terms – plenipotentiaries.

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    • Replies: @Mikhail
    Pilsudski wanted a Polish version of the Soviet dominated Warsaw Pact, in the form of subservient countries lacking power to challenge Polish aims. There's a reason why Poland's relations with Lithuania and CzechoSlovakia between the two world wars weren't so good.

    The bottom line is that Pilsudski nixed the idea of a Polish-White alliance that might very well have changed the outcome of the Russian Civil War, in addition to improving Russian-Polish relations. Denikin in particular had openly been critical of some of the Russian Empire's policies towards Poland.

    Minsk has no business being part of Poland. Petliura needed Pilsudski, because Petliura didn't have such great support within the former Russian Empire part of Ukraine. In turn, Pilsudski was seeking an anti-Russian puppet in Ukraine. Petliura agreeing to let all of Galicia go was icing on the cake for Pilsudski.

    I'm not not aware of Denikin saying in 1919 (as well as before or after), that Pilsudski should withdraw from half of all the land Pilsudski got where Poles weren't in the majority.
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  • @Mikhail
    The English dominated Brit rule of Ireland extended for centuries and included the potato famine catastrophe. While it's true that this tragedy had a natural factor, there's also reason to believe that the Brit authorities could've done more to lessen the number of deaths.

    By force, Poland tried to Polonize Russia and eliminate the Orthodox Church prior to what you bring up in reverse. In any event, plenty of Poles in the Russian Empire were fluent in Polish, in addition to remaining Roman Catholic.

    Two wrongs don't make a right, with hypocrisy not being a virtue as well. This point relates to how issues like Russian-Polish history is taught in some circles.

    BTW, the Orthodox Church under Polish rule faced discrimination between the two world wars.

    Damn, how it’s possible I have missed that part? Sorry for our host that I am doing double reply instead on one. Hope you won’t ban me for that, Anatoly :D

    Two wrongs don’t make a right, with hypocrisy not being a virtue as well. This point relates to how issues like Russian-Polish history is taught in some circles.

    Agreed.

    BTW, the Orthodox Church under Polish rule faced discrimination between the two world wars.

    Kind of. There were churches being taken over and the forceful convertions (so called “re-catholicisation”).

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  • @Seraphim
    One of the venerated saints of the Romanian Church was Antim Ivireanul (Anthim the Iberian ანთიმოზ ივერიელი - Antimoz Iverieli) a Georgian theologian, scholar, calligrapher, philosopher and one of the greatest ecclesiastic figures of Wallachia, led the printing press of the prince of Wallachia Constantin Brancoveanu, and was Metropolitan of Wallachia in 1708-1715. Martyred by the Ottomans in 1716, was recently canonized. In 1709 Anthim was a founder of the first Georgian printing press in Tbilisi; he also trained Georgians in the art of printing, and cut the type with which under his pupil Mihai Iștvanovici they printed the first of Georgian Gospels (1710). A rugby union trophy, the Antim Cup, contested by Romania and Georgia, is named after him.

    Interesting and in line with my understanding of these instances you bring up. Thanks for the follow-up.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Just to confirm further that your understanding is the correct one and why:
    "The Panagia Portaitissa (Greek: Παναγία Πορταΐτισσα; Georgian: ივერიის ღვთისმშობლის ხატი) or the Iviron Theotokos is an Eastern Orthodox icon of the Virgin Mary which was painted by Luke the Evangelist, according to the Sacred Tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church. The icon is referred to as "Wonderworking" meaning that numerous miracles have been attributed to the intercession of the Theotokos (Mother of God) by persons praying before it. The original of this image is found in the Georgian Iviron monastery on Mount Athos in Greece, where it is believed to have been since the year 999. The synaxis (feast day) for this icon is on February 12, as well as on Bright Tuesday, and also on October 13 for the translation to Moscow of the Iveron icon".
    [The Moscow one is actually an exact copy, commissioned by the Patriarch Nikon in 1648]. "Almost immediately upon its arrival on October 13, the icon was "glorified" with numerous miracles attributed to it by the faithful. The Iverskaya Chapel was built in 1669 to enshrine the icon next to the Kremlin walls in Moscow. The chapel was the main entrance to Red Square and traditionally everyone, from the Tsar down to the lowest peasant would stop there to venerate the icon before entering the square. After the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917, the chapel was destroyed by the Communists and the fate of the icon is unknown to this day". Copies of it continue to perform miracles even today (like the copy of the Montreal Myrrh-streaming Iveron Icon, presently in the Church of Holy Theotokos of Iveron Russian Orthodox Church in Honolulu, Hawaii).
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  • What’s your definition of official versus non-official? At the time, the Whites and Poles had known talks much unlike the then secret Polish-Bolshe variant.

    Pilsudski used the talks with the Whites as a charade to appease some in the West (like Churchill) desiring for a White/Polish anti-Bolshe military alliance. His mind was set on doing the secret deal with the Bolshes.

    In point of fact, I said that the Whites supported an independent Poland, without making specifics on borders – a touchy issue. As you know, Galicia had areas where Ukrainians were the majority. After Petliura sold out the Galician Ukrainians to Pilsudski, the Galician Ukrainian army en masse came under the general commends of the Whites, who treated the Galician Ukrainians as a foreign group albeit with earlier ties to Rus, of which modern day Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are descended from.

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    • Replies: @szopen

    Pilsudski used the talks with the Whites as a charade to appease some in the West
     
    No. Pilsudski wanted to achieve his ideal, unachieveable Federation. He wanted intermarium, with Poland-Lithuania-Belarus-Ukraine, with Vilnius probably being part of independent Lithuania which would be part of a federation. How that would work in practice? Most likely he had no idea.

    He negotiated both with whites and reds. Reds offered better terms, so he stopped the offensive. IF whites would offer different terms, he would go with whites - though most likely in very limited sense (see (2) below).

    However:

    (1) Denikin stance was very unrealistic and unelastic. His stance was basically: we want you to help us, and in return you can keep half of what you already have.

    (2) In 1919 Polish army was not, in fact, capable of large actions. I do not say they were totally impossible, but logistical difficulties were a factor which also had impact on Pilsudski's plans.

    I said that the Whites supported an independent Poland, without making specifics on borders – a touchy issue.
     

    Yes, you right. I misrepresented what you have written in that matter, sorry.

    However, in place on Poland, knowing only what Poles knew in 1919 and seeing Denikin stance (withdraw from Ukraine! Help us, and in return we will recognise you are independence, but you will have to give back half of what you already have) would you really be so eager to help Denikin?

    You may have written Petlura sold out Galician Ukrainians, but he was realist: he knew that he had no much power, he saw that only Pilsudski supported independent, non-communist Ukraine, hence he decided to act realistically.

    In fact I would prefer our politicians to behave more often like him: if Pilsudski would act realistically, then the war would be stopped in 1919, with Minsk on Polish side, and without thousands of dead lost in Kiev offensive and aftermath. Not to mention possibility of different outcome of plebiscite in Eastern Prussia or possibility of concentrating on Zaolzie more.

    EDIT: official vs unofficial: Polish mission to Denikin had no right to negotiate, agree to anything etc. They were not - I do not knwo ENglish terms - plenipotentiaries.

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  • @Mikhail
    The English dominated Brit rule of Ireland extended for centuries and included the potato famine catastrophe. While it's true that this tragedy had a natural factor, there's also reason to believe that the Brit authorities could've done more to lessen the number of deaths.

    By force, Poland tried to Polonize Russia and eliminate the Orthodox Church prior to what you bring up in reverse. In any event, plenty of Poles in the Russian Empire were fluent in Polish, in addition to remaining Roman Catholic.

    Two wrongs don't make a right, with hypocrisy not being a virtue as well. This point relates to how issues like Russian-Polish history is taught in some circles.

    BTW, the Orthodox Church under Polish rule faced discrimination between the two world wars.

    When Poland tried to polonize Russia and eliminate orthodox Church? I mean “Poland” in contrast to “some Polish priests”, “Vatican wanted Poland to do it” or “some private magnates”.

    If you mean Smuta (the only example where you could argue for the second, though not for the first position), then remember that at first it was private enterprise of few magnates. Later it’s true that Zygmunt personally wanted to convert Russia into catholicism, but Polish king, while not totally powerless, was opposed in that matter by pretty much all other Polish sources of power – the commander of Polish army, for example, pretty much ignored Zygmunt when negotiating agreement with Russian boyars (an agreement which included demand that Władysław would have to accept orthodox faith before becoming tzar – which angered his father Zygmunt, who was kind of religious fanatic).

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    • Replies: @melanf

    Later it’s true that Zygmunt personally wanted to convert Russia into catholicism, but Polish king, while not totally powerless, was opposed in that matter by pretty much all other Polish sources of power – the commander of Polish army, for example, pretty much ignored Zygmunt when negotiating agreement with Russian boyars (an agreement which included demand that Władysław would have to accept orthodox faith before becoming tzar – which angered his father Zygmunt, who was kind of religious fanatic).
     
    "agreement with Russian boyars" were tricked, with the goal of capturing Moscow. As soon as Polish troops entered the city the agreement was violated.
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  • @Mikhail
    Pilsudski didn't want to support Denikin because he did an earlier Polish version of Molotov-Ribbentrop as detailed in that Eurasia Review link. Poland under his direction acted more along the lines of an invading imperialist, with the use of a puppet (Petliura), as opposed to some virtuous liberator. In any event, it's generally accepted by those who've studied the subject, that Poland attacked former Russian Empire territory which included areas where ethnic Poles weren't in the majority. This was done at the time of the Russian Civil War.

    As was later revealed, Pilsudski made a then secret pact with the Bolshes, that involved a Polish non-support of Denikin. In exchange, the Bolshes offered Pilsudski a land proposal offer for Poland which included territory that didn't have a Polish majority.

    As noted in the Eurasia Review linked piece, that move by Pilsudski might very well have paved the way for the eventual Communist takeover of Poland. The Whites were willing to ally with Poland against the Bolshes, inclusive of recognizing an independent Poland. At the time of Pilsudski's secret dealing with the Bolshes, the Whites were on an impressive offensive. The Red commander Tukhachevsky (among some others) is of the view that Pilsudski's move against Denikin might very well have decided the outcome of the Russian Civil War.

    A good read on the subject:

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=6bCXWouJOdKa_QbOxY-oDw&q=White+Against+Red+Dimitry+Lehovich&oq=White+Against+Red+Dimitry+Lehovich&gs_l=psy-ab.12...11126.36849.0.38966.38.38.0.0.0.0.169.2964.36j2.38.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.33.2636...0j46j0i131k1j0i46k1j0i10k1j0i22i30k1j0i22i10i30k1j0i8i13i30k1j0i8i13i10i30k1j0i13k1j0i13i30k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i160k1.0.6Y0eaFWPpu4

    But the point is that war was not started in 1920, but in 1919 – and over areas, some of which DID have Polish majority, and definetely NONE had Russian majority. That is: I can understand the position of Belarussian or Ukrainian arguing that we attacked them (which I would deny, but at least I would give them they have some basis for their argument), but not the Russian position which states that because local Poles in Vilnius wanted to join Poland, it means Poland attacked Russia.

    Moreover, Pilsudski had not supported Denikin because Denikin was, contrary to what you write, very vague about Polish borders – he said he would only support Polish independence in borders of “Polish kingdom”, which would exclude both Lviv and Vilnius (Lviv: a city with Polish majority, surrounded by area without a clear majority, Vilnius: majority Polish city in a majority-Polish area).

    Denikin also demanded that Poles would withdraw armies from Vohlyn and Podole – areas which Polish armies took partly from Ukrainians, and partly from bolsheviks.

    There were no oficial negotiations – Pilsudski sent mission which was to gather information and to prepare ground for official diplomacy.

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  • @szopen

    I sense that more Poles know Polish than Irish know Gaelic. Polish Catholic churches readily existed in the Russian Empire,
     
    (1) Poland was under Russian rule for 100+ years, during which there was very inconsistent policy towards Polish. How long was Ireland under English?

    (2) The policies were inconsistent, depended on a period and on a region. For example, in Polesie (region in what is modern Belarus) at first Polish was freely teached and used as language of education, then after 1830s it was removed and teached only as a subject while Russian was language of education, then it was more or less reversed, then it was reversed again in 1860s. With catholic churches in 1864-67 there was an open attack, with closing churches, monasteries, changing them into orthodox ones; with forceful conversions etc. Then the politics of open attacks was abandoned; in 1890s there was official decree which allowed more religious freedom, which was however often violated by local authorities; and in 1904 (or 1905??) there was a decree of religious tolerance.

    And there were, of course, Polish "secret" unofficial schools and "kółka samokształceniowe", which occasionally were discovered, dissolved and participants punished. A "proof" that school "secretly teached Polish" was for example that a teacher was Roman-Catholic and had Polish-language schoolbook.

    The English dominated Brit rule of Ireland extended for centuries and included the potato famine catastrophe. While it’s true that this tragedy had a natural factor, there’s also reason to believe that the Brit authorities could’ve done more to lessen the number of deaths.

    By force, Poland tried to Polonize Russia and eliminate the Orthodox Church prior to what you bring up in reverse. In any event, plenty of Poles in the Russian Empire were fluent in Polish, in addition to remaining Roman Catholic.

    Two wrongs don’t make a right, with hypocrisy not being a virtue as well. This point relates to how issues like Russian-Polish history is taught in some circles.

    BTW, the Orthodox Church under Polish rule faced discrimination between the two world wars.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    When Poland tried to polonize Russia and eliminate orthodox Church? I mean "Poland" in contrast to "some Polish priests", "Vatican wanted Poland to do it" or "some private magnates".

    If you mean Smuta (the only example where you could argue for the second, though not for the first position), then remember that at first it was private enterprise of few magnates. Later it's true that Zygmunt personally wanted to convert Russia into catholicism, but Polish king, while not totally powerless, was opposed in that matter by pretty much all other Polish sources of power - the commander of Polish army, for example, pretty much ignored Zygmunt when negotiating agreement with Russian boyars (an agreement which included demand that Władysław would have to accept orthodox faith before becoming tzar - which angered his father Zygmunt, who was kind of religious fanatic).
    , @szopen
    Damn, how it's possible I have missed that part? Sorry for our host that I am doing double reply instead on one. Hope you won't ban me for that, Anatoly :D

    Two wrongs don’t make a right, with hypocrisy not being a virtue as well. This point relates to how issues like Russian-Polish history is taught in some circles.
     
    Agreed.


    BTW, the Orthodox Church under Polish rule faced discrimination between the two world wars.
     
    Kind of. There were churches being taken over and the forceful convertions (so called "re-catholicisation").
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  • @Mikhail
    In a number of influential circles, there has been tendency to comparatively exaggerate the cultural/linguistic restrictions of non-Russians in the Russian Empire, when compared to some other empires.

    Per capita wise, I sense that more Poles know Polish than Irish know Gaelic. Polish Catholic churches readily existed in the Russian Empire, with Denikin noting that his Polish mother regularly attended services in that denomination.

    I sense that more Poles know Polish than Irish know Gaelic. Polish Catholic churches readily existed in the Russian Empire,

    (1) Poland was under Russian rule for 100+ years, during which there was very inconsistent policy towards Polish. How long was Ireland under English?

    (2) The policies were inconsistent, depended on a period and on a region. For example, in Polesie (region in what is modern Belarus) at first Polish was freely teached and used as language of education, then after 1830s it was removed and teached only as a subject while Russian was language of education, then it was more or less reversed, then it was reversed again in 1860s. With catholic churches in 1864-67 there was an open attack, with closing churches, monasteries, changing them into orthodox ones; with forceful conversions etc. Then the politics of open attacks was abandoned; in 1890s there was official decree which allowed more religious freedom, which was however often violated by local authorities; and in 1904 (or 1905??) there was a decree of religious tolerance.

    And there were, of course, Polish “secret” unofficial schools and “kółka samokształceniowe”, which occasionally were discovered, dissolved and participants punished. A “proof” that school “secretly teached Polish” was for example that a teacher was Roman-Catholic and had Polish-language schoolbook.

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    • Replies: @Mikhail
    The English dominated Brit rule of Ireland extended for centuries and included the potato famine catastrophe. While it's true that this tragedy had a natural factor, there's also reason to believe that the Brit authorities could've done more to lessen the number of deaths.

    By force, Poland tried to Polonize Russia and eliminate the Orthodox Church prior to what you bring up in reverse. In any event, plenty of Poles in the Russian Empire were fluent in Polish, in addition to remaining Roman Catholic.

    Two wrongs don't make a right, with hypocrisy not being a virtue as well. This point relates to how issues like Russian-Polish history is taught in some circles.

    BTW, the Orthodox Church under Polish rule faced discrimination between the two world wars.

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  • @szopen
    I have read the original Peck's article, to which the article quoted by you was the answer.

    In short, both are wrong. Peck's somehow seems to think that the war was started by Polish offensive on Kiev in April 1919 (!!!), which is, obviously, wrong. It's hard to say when the war started exactly. The first fights were between local bolsheviks contra local Polish self-defense units (they were called "Samoobrona"). The first I had identified were in Vilnius, in fact in December 1918. Local Poles were then attacked by Red Army and withdraw. One might argue that it means Red Army attacked Poland, since I think a day or two before the first fight local self-defense units were formally declared part of Polish army - and Vilnius area was majority Polish anyway (slightly more than 50% in Vilnius alone, and definetely majority in rural areas around Vilnius).

    Later Polish army defeated Red Army and THEN Polish offensive stopped in 1919, because Pilsudski did not want to support Denikin. The last fight was attack in cooperation with Latvia, which succeeded in taking some areas which were then given to Latvia. Then offensive stopped and peave negotiations started.

    Then in April 1920 (not 1919!!!) Poland started yet another offensive on Kiev, which was designed to support Petlura state (Kiev was to be capitol of Ukraine). Peck is factually wrong is describing it as "start of the war".

    In fact I think the war was a mistake. In 1919 bolsheviks offered to give Poland Mińsk (!), for example. However, Pilsudski was a dreamer and he wanted to establish Ukraine (allied with Poland). That's why he refused bolshevik peace offers and went on with war. Some also argue that bolshevik peace offer was dishonest and that after defeating the whites, they would attack Poland.

    One thing however is sure, war was NOT started by Polish offensive on Kiev.

    Pilsudski didn’t want to support Denikin because he did an earlier Polish version of Molotov-Ribbentrop as detailed in that Eurasia Review link. Poland under his direction acted more along the lines of an invading imperialist, with the use of a puppet (Petliura), as opposed to some virtuous liberator. In any event, it’s generally accepted by those who’ve studied the subject, that Poland attacked former Russian Empire territory which included areas where ethnic Poles weren’t in the majority. This was done at the time of the Russian Civil War.

    As was later revealed, Pilsudski made a then secret pact with the Bolshes, that involved a Polish non-support of Denikin. In exchange, the Bolshes offered Pilsudski a land proposal offer for Poland which included territory that didn’t have a Polish majority.

    As noted in the Eurasia Review linked piece, that move by Pilsudski might very well have paved the way for the eventual Communist takeover of Poland. The Whites were willing to ally with Poland against the Bolshes, inclusive of recognizing an independent Poland. At the time of Pilsudski’s secret dealing with the Bolshes, the Whites were on an impressive offensive. The Red commander Tukhachevsky (among some others) is of the view that Pilsudski’s move against Denikin might very well have decided the outcome of the Russian Civil War.

    A good read on the subject:

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=6bCXWouJOdKa_QbOxY-oDw&q=White+Against+Red+Dimitry+Lehovich&oq=White+Against+Red+Dimitry+Lehovich&gs_l=psy-ab.12…11126.36849.0.38966.38.38.0.0.0.0.169.2964.36j2.38.0….0…1.1.64.psy-ab..0.33.2636…0j46j0i131k1j0i46k1j0i10k1j0i22i30k1j0i22i10i30k1j0i8i13i30k1j0i8i13i10i30k1j0i13k1j0i13i30k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i160k1.0.6Y0eaFWPpu4

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    • Replies: @szopen
    But the point is that war was not started in 1920, but in 1919 - and over areas, some of which DID have Polish majority, and definetely NONE had Russian majority. That is: I can understand the position of Belarussian or Ukrainian arguing that we attacked them (which I would deny, but at least I would give them they have some basis for their argument), but not the Russian position which states that because local Poles in Vilnius wanted to join Poland, it means Poland attacked Russia.

    Moreover, Pilsudski had not supported Denikin because Denikin was, contrary to what you write, very vague about Polish borders - he said he would only support Polish independence in borders of "Polish kingdom", which would exclude both Lviv and Vilnius (Lviv: a city with Polish majority, surrounded by area without a clear majority, Vilnius: majority Polish city in a majority-Polish area).

    Denikin also demanded that Poles would withdraw armies from Vohlyn and Podole - areas which Polish armies took partly from Ukrainians, and partly from bolsheviks.

    There were no oficial negotiations - Pilsudski sent mission which was to gather information and to prepare ground for official diplomacy.
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  • @Yevardian
    I for one, respect Art Deco for his pithy trolling talent.

    He is still upset I pointed out the obvious fact that the Israelis assassinated JFK.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin

    It is human nature to respect the strong and despise the weak
     
    This is what it all comes down to. People instinctively like winners, and dislike losers.

    The Americans dropped two nukes* on Japan and the Japanese love them regardless. Moral considerations are secondary ones, at best. Conversely, if central planning actually had turned out to be superior to markets, instead of a dismal failure, I’m reasonably sure Poles and Balts would love Russians today, a few minor unpleasantries from the 1940s regardless.

    Of course the fact that sovoks tend to actively work to make themselves unlikeable doesn't help matters.

    * (Needless to say, I am certainly not one of the people who care let alone condemn the US for dropping nukes on Japan).

    The Americans dropped two nukes* on Japan and the Japanese love them regardless.

    The love is fake. They are just biding their time.

    Their fear of Chinese vengeance for the Japanese invasion and subsequent atrocities is stronger than their desire for avenging the nukings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. For now.

    There is plenty unfinished business (or unresolved karma) left over from WWII.

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  • @Mikhail
    For that matter, relations between the Russian and Georgian Orthodox Christian churches have been quite good, despite what transpired in 2008, as well as before with Gamsakhurdia.

    One of the venerated saints of the Romanian Church was Antim Ivireanul (Anthim the Iberian ანთიმოზ ივერიელი – Antimoz Iverieli) a Georgian theologian, scholar, calligrapher, philosopher and one of the greatest ecclesiastic figures of Wallachia, led the printing press of the prince of Wallachia Constantin Brancoveanu, and was Metropolitan of Wallachia in 1708-1715. Martyred by the Ottomans in 1716, was recently canonized. In 1709 Anthim was a founder of the first Georgian printing press in Tbilisi; he also trained Georgians in the art of printing, and cut the type with which under his pupil Mihai Iștvanovici they printed the first of Georgian Gospels (1710). A rugby union trophy, the Antim Cup, contested by Romania and Georgia, is named after him.

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    • Replies: @Mikhail
    Interesting and in line with my understanding of these instances you bring up. Thanks for the follow-up.
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  • @Mikhail
    More accurately put, the Stalin led Soviets were going after Polish military folks likely with ties to that earlier war in question, that included thousands of Soviets dying under horrid Polish prison conditions.

    BTW, when Poland attacked mostly non-Polish inhabited former Russian Empire territory in 1919, it was engaging in imperialism and not "national survival". See:

    http://www.eurasiareview.com/08042016-fuzzy-history-how-poland-saved-the-world-from-russia-analysis/

    I have read the original Peck’s article, to which the article quoted by you was the answer.

    In short, both are wrong. Peck’s somehow seems to think that the war was started by Polish offensive on Kiev in April 1919 (!!!), which is, obviously, wrong. It’s hard to say when the war started exactly. The first fights were between local bolsheviks contra local Polish self-defense units (they were called “Samoobrona”). The first I had identified were in Vilnius, in fact in December 1918. Local Poles were then attacked by Red Army and withdraw. One might argue that it means Red Army attacked Poland, since I think a day or two before the first fight local self-defense units were formally declared part of Polish army – and Vilnius area was majority Polish anyway (slightly more than 50% in Vilnius alone, and definetely majority in rural areas around Vilnius).

    Later Polish army defeated Red Army and THEN Polish offensive stopped in 1919, because Pilsudski did not want to support Denikin. The last fight was attack in cooperation with Latvia, which succeeded in taking some areas which were then given to Latvia. Then offensive stopped and peave negotiations started.

    Then in April 1920 (not 1919!!!) Poland started yet another offensive on Kiev, which was designed to support Petlura state (Kiev was to be capitol of Ukraine). Peck is factually wrong is describing it as “start of the war”.

    In fact I think the war was a mistake. In 1919 bolsheviks offered to give Poland Mińsk (!), for example. However, Pilsudski was a dreamer and he wanted to establish Ukraine (allied with Poland). That’s why he refused bolshevik peace offers and went on with war. Some also argue that bolshevik peace offer was dishonest and that after defeating the whites, they would attack Poland.

    One thing however is sure, war was NOT started by Polish offensive on Kiev.

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    • Replies: @Mikhail
    Pilsudski didn't want to support Denikin because he did an earlier Polish version of Molotov-Ribbentrop as detailed in that Eurasia Review link. Poland under his direction acted more along the lines of an invading imperialist, with the use of a puppet (Petliura), as opposed to some virtuous liberator. In any event, it's generally accepted by those who've studied the subject, that Poland attacked former Russian Empire territory which included areas where ethnic Poles weren't in the majority. This was done at the time of the Russian Civil War.

    As was later revealed, Pilsudski made a then secret pact with the Bolshes, that involved a Polish non-support of Denikin. In exchange, the Bolshes offered Pilsudski a land proposal offer for Poland which included territory that didn't have a Polish majority.

    As noted in the Eurasia Review linked piece, that move by Pilsudski might very well have paved the way for the eventual Communist takeover of Poland. The Whites were willing to ally with Poland against the Bolshes, inclusive of recognizing an independent Poland. At the time of Pilsudski's secret dealing with the Bolshes, the Whites were on an impressive offensive. The Red commander Tukhachevsky (among some others) is of the view that Pilsudski's move against Denikin might very well have decided the outcome of the Russian Civil War.

    A good read on the subject:

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=6bCXWouJOdKa_QbOxY-oDw&q=White+Against+Red+Dimitry+Lehovich&oq=White+Against+Red+Dimitry+Lehovich&gs_l=psy-ab.12...11126.36849.0.38966.38.38.0.0.0.0.169.2964.36j2.38.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.33.2636...0j46j0i131k1j0i46k1j0i10k1j0i22i30k1j0i22i10i30k1j0i8i13i30k1j0i8i13i10i30k1j0i13k1j0i13i30k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i160k1.0.6Y0eaFWPpu4

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  • @Mikhail
    More accurately put, the Stalin led Soviets were going after Polish military folks likely with ties to that earlier war in question, that included thousands of Soviets dying under horrid Polish prison conditions.

    BTW, when Poland attacked mostly non-Polish inhabited former Russian Empire territory in 1919, it was engaging in imperialism and not "national survival". See:

    http://www.eurasiareview.com/08042016-fuzzy-history-how-poland-saved-the-world-from-russia-analysis/

    POLAND HAD NOT ATTACKED RUSSIAN EMPIRE.

    It would be more precise to write Red Army which invaded and attacked Poland in 1919 (attacking for exmaple majority Polish Vilnius). The invasion was called “operation Vistula”, BTW. I have described the Vilnius situation above (Polish self-defense units formed by locals, from majority Polish population, attacked by Red ARmy, later Polish army returning and defeating Red Army.

    First fights were in majority Polish area near Vilnius. And since Soviets declared Polish partitions as void, it means they recognised the area as not being part of Russia. To describe them as “Poland attacked Russia” would be the same as describing any Polish uprising as “POland invaded Russia!”

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  • @melanf

    Both examples would be called kitsch in the West. I have to say that the building is… a bit… over the top, for a modern structure.
     
    But in the West, evaluate as a masterpiece painting "Black square" and build such monumental buildings (St Bride's Church, "one of the finest examples of British twentieth-century ecclesiastical architecture" )
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/St_Brides_EK05.jpg

    And this Western architectural genius rebuilt Cologne
    http://i.imgur.com/3O3CWBu.jpg

    Because of this, I don't care about rating of art in the "West".
    Architecture in Russia has certainly benefited from the fact that now people can build a "kitsch" for their tastes, instead of nightmares Le Corbusier and Bauhaus.

    And the painting won, as artists no longer have to paint workers and revolutionaries.
    Here the final works of students Of St. Petersburg Academy of Arts in 2016 is Clearly better than social realism
    https://yura-falyosa.livejournal.com/1500684.html

    Here is Yoshkar Ola a provincial Soviet city.

    In the 2000s, the local Governor became a madman who considered himself the reincarnation of Lorenzo Medici. Here are the official portraits of Leonid the Magnificenthttps://www.rospres.org/media/k2/items/imageart/2ab751909f64ca819022f906cb95ea05.jpg

    Can be read “motto” of Leonid – ” He liked the beauty in this surly world”

    And here’s how this weirdo rebuilt Yoshkar Ola (before he was sent to prison for embezzlement of money)

    That is, even the work of the madman more interesting than Bauhaus

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    • Replies: @inertial
    I like much of Bauhaus. Did you mean Brutalism?

    Those students' works are nice but highly derivative (which is fine, as they are students.)

    My opinion is, you can't keep on forever rebuilding Florence or Mad King Ludwig's castle. Gotta do something new. Or, at the very least, a different kind of old. For example, I think there is not enough Art Deco in the world.
    , @Dmitry
    The fake buildings in Yoshkar-Ola are incredibly ugly though, especially from close up where it becomes obvious that they fakes (modern buildings) made to very low quality standards to parody old ones.

    The only people who would fall for it are people who have never visited a real historical city. It is like a low quality, cheap parody Disney Land, that could fall apart from poor construction standards.

    When people make those fake buildings, it just makes you wish you visit real historical buildings and not the fakes. I.e. to visit a real city, and not a fake one.

    ---

    As for Bauhaus - it is a movement from the 1920s. The real Bauhaus buildings are quite interesting, as they capture the philosophy and world-view of the 1920s people.

    They also made some interesting things like chairs and furniture which you can see if you visit the museum in Berlin.

    The movement which is really ugly is the Brutalist school movement in architecture which dominated from the 1950s.

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  • @inertial
    Both examples would be called kitsch in the West. I have to say that the building is... a bit... over the top, for a modern structure.

    Both examples would be called kitsch in the West. I have to say that the building is… a bit… over the top, for a modern structure.

    But in the West, evaluate as a masterpiece painting “Black square” and build such monumental buildings (St Bride’s Church, “one of the finest examples of British twentieth-century ecclesiastical architecture” )
    And this Western architectural genius rebuilt Cologne
    Because of this, I don’t care about rating of art in the “West”.
    Architecture in Russia has certainly benefited from the fact that now people can build a “kitsch” for their tastes, instead of nightmares Le Corbusier and Bauhaus.

    And the painting won, as artists no longer have to paint workers and revolutionaries.
    Here the final works of students Of St. Petersburg Academy of Arts in 2016 is Clearly better than social realism

    https://yura-falyosa.livejournal.com/1500684.html

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    • Replies: @melanf
    Here is Yoshkar Ola a provincial Soviet city.
    http://i12.pixs.ru/storage/0/8/5/sdLKOFOT9Q_2632165_29518085.jpg


    In the 2000s, the local Governor became a madman who considered himself the reincarnation of Lorenzo Medici. Here are the official portraits of Leonid the Magnificent
    https://static.7x7-journal.ru/images/items/94135/files/553.jpg
    https://www.rospres.org/media/k2/items/imageart/2ab751909f64ca819022f906cb95ea05.jpg

    Can be read "motto" of Leonid - " He liked the beauty in this surly world"

    And here's how this weirdo rebuilt Yoshkar Ola (before he was sent to prison for embezzlement of money)

    http://i12.pixs.ru/storage/2/1/2/B2GsHNIUAI_2317522_29518212.jpg

    http://i12.pixs.ru/storage/2/1/8/lSPQckJVOw_7751252_29518218.jpg

    http://i12.pixs.ru/storage/2/2/4/oy4zae8XAY_3448120_29518224.jpg

    That is, even the work of the madman more interesting than Bauhaus

    , @Dmitry

    But in the West, evaluate as a masterpiece painting “Black square” and build such monumental buildings (St Bride’s Church, “one of the finest examples of British twentieth-century ecclesiastical architecture” )

     

    Why in places like Oslo, the average modern architecture are just simple and quite functional, and designed for living needs.

    https://www.google.ru/maps/@59.9281153,10.7278328,3a,75y,320.72h,93.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5-nfOoQG7Wenif__ZtHp5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

    You can walk around whole city - they fit together modern and older buildings quite simply there.

    This is the normal way people build for centuries. It doesn't offend, but serves the purpose.

    The problem in the modern architecture, is the megalomania of architects, combined with their bad taste.

    The solution is for more humble architecture and simple tastes.

    The issue here is that architecture is a public art-form and should be pleasing and functional - it's not like a painting or 'personal artform'.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    1. No.

    2. No.

    3. Civilization went to shit after #4, which remains the best in the series along with #2.

    I don’t disagree with #4 being by far the best of the series, but I do think that RnF has managed to redeem it significantly. While the entire “era score” and “emergency action” concept feels extremely artificial(clearly was taken from a board game), its remarkably effective and actually makes each turn matter feel meaningful and matter again – whereas one of the main downfalls of previous games in my opinion was the “pass the turn feeling” once you had gotten to a level of advancement/power that seemed unchallenged.

    It has managed a sufficient level of complexity for it to be fun for me, at any rate. I’m sure that Firaxis will torpedo it soon because any game that isn’t accessible to a moron with 9 working fingers must be simplified.

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  • @Seraphim
    Certainly Orthodoxy is a most important factor. The case of Romania and Greece are relevant. If Bulgaria's, Slovakia's or Croatia's sympathies may be ascribed to a vague 'slavic' factor (neither Slovakia, nor Croatia are Orthodox countries), this can't be taken into consideration in Romania or Greece. The case of Romania is even singled out as an anomaly, in view of the otherwise anti-Russian attitudes. But in fact these are due to the identification of Communism (universally loathed) with the 'Russians' who brought it to Romania. And also to the western propaganda which has affected the 'cultured (and semi-cultured) classes' since the inroads of "Europe" into the Balkans (centuries old), propaganda which was specifically anti-Orthodox and anti-Russian and influenced the politics (Unia).
    Russia in fact was the protector of the Orthodox in the Ottoman Empire and the populations never forgot. On the strictly religious, spiritual plan, relations between Romanian and Russian Churches have been intense and profound. In this respect Romania and Moldova should not be considered separately. Romanians know that Russians have been also victims of the same bringers of the 'golden future' of 'Humankind'.
    Last year in October the Patriarch Kirill visited Romania and held together with Patriarch Daniel of Romania and hierarchs from the Balkans a common service for the victims of Communist atheist persecutions and it seems that it had a significant effect. The polls were conducted after this event. It might have been even a momentous event (although I still hold my breath).

    For that matter, relations between the Russian and Georgian Orthodox Christian churches have been quite good, despite what transpired in 2008, as well as before with Gamsakhurdia.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    One of the venerated saints of the Romanian Church was Antim Ivireanul (Anthim the Iberian ანთიმოზ ივერიელი - Antimoz Iverieli) a Georgian theologian, scholar, calligrapher, philosopher and one of the greatest ecclesiastic figures of Wallachia, led the printing press of the prince of Wallachia Constantin Brancoveanu, and was Metropolitan of Wallachia in 1708-1715. Martyred by the Ottomans in 1716, was recently canonized. In 1709 Anthim was a founder of the first Georgian printing press in Tbilisi; he also trained Georgians in the art of printing, and cut the type with which under his pupil Mihai Iștvanovici they printed the first of Georgian Gospels (1710). A rugby union trophy, the Antim Cup, contested by Romania and Georgia, is named after him.
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  • @for-the-record
    but ultimately, our sympathies lay with the Romans who subdued them

    Speak for yourself. If you haven't already read it, you might enjoy Terry Jones' Barbarians (also a BBC documentary).

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Terry-Jones-Barbarians-Alan-Ereira/dp/056353916X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1519868624&sr=8-1&keywords=terry+jones+the+barbarians

    I shall check it out. Thank you for the recommendation!

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    • Replies: @for-the-record
    I shall check it out. Thank you for the recommendation!

    By the way, are you aware that Archive.org has a free online lending library of more than 1.5 million books. You can borrow the book at:

    https://archive.org/search.php?query=title%3A%28Barbarians%29%20AND%20creator%3A%28terry%20jones%29
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  • @for-the-record
    I understand your point and I despise you for it.

    Why the need to be so personal? Do you really think you are so superior to the rest of us? Reading your posts (not all of which are useless, by any means) I am reminded of the saying (attributed to Lord Melbourne, I believe, but no doubt you can correct me):

    Would that I were as certain of any one thing as you are of everything.

    I for one, respect Art Deco for his pithy trolling talent.

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    • Replies: @LondonBob
    He is still upset I pointed out the obvious fact that the Israelis assassinated JFK.
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  • @Art Deco
    In this, he is a rather typical Pax Americana comprador.

    I understand your point and I despise you for it.

    I understand your point and I despise you for it.

    Why the need to be so personal? Do you really think you are so superior to the rest of us? Reading your posts (not all of which are useless, by any means) I am reminded of the saying (attributed to Lord Melbourne, I believe, but no doubt you can correct me):

    Would that I were as certain of any one thing as you are of everything.

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    • Replies: @Yevardian
    I for one, respect Art Deco for his pithy trolling talent.
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  • @Corvinus
    "Sweden’s path ends in chaos, poverty, mass violence, and subjugation by Muslims."

    Highly doubtful.

    I’d like to agree with you there, as you know.

    But is there any reason to think that Swedes will suddenly start having a lot more children?

    Any reason to think that the Africans, Arabs, and Muslims residing in Sweden will soon stop having enough children to grow their population (and currently at a far higher TFR than Swedes)?

    If the answer to these questions is “no”, what is the cause for optimism? Even if the Swedes ended all Muslim, Arab, and African immigration next year — which is very unlikely — the damage that has been done is irrevocable on anything like current trends.

    The no-go areas are still growing larger and more numerous across Sweden, with none of them proposed for forcible reclamation by real Swedes.

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    As much as we wish it was different, we see this repeatedly. The Gauls probably lived in ways far more compatible in nature and surely had interesting religious and cultural beliefs, but ultimately, our sympathies lay with the Romans who subdued them. There is much high art of the Rape of the Sabines: do they condemn the Romans for their treachery, or do they extol Roman courage and audacity?

    but ultimately, our sympathies lay with the Romans who subdued them

    Speak for yourself. If you haven’t already read it, you might enjoy Terry Jones’ Barbarians (also a BBC documentary).

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Terry-Jones-Barbarians-Alan-Ereira/dp/056353916X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1519868624&sr=8-1&keywords=terry+jones+the+barbarians

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I shall check it out. Thank you for the recommendation!
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  • @Polish Perspective

    literature successfully competes with American literature
     
    Which is ridiculous. Russian literature is among the best in the world. I would only place English or German at similar standing. American literature is not bad per se, Hemingway, Steinbeck, Twain et al were of a high quality, but not quite reaching the best Russian writers. However, standards have completely collapsed in the last half-century. The chasm between contemporary Russian and American literature has become much wider, in favor of Russian literature.

    I obviously cannot comment on pop culture but in my view it tends to be garbage everywhere, though there are some places with refreshing pushback. China is one example where there is strict cultural discipline(see the recent and most-welcome banning of hiphop and similar trash). They also banned Justin Bieber.

    People may condemn that as authoritarian, but I'll just point out that the West does a lot of social enforcement policing (often by SJWs) all the time. China is merely condemned because it does so on national-conservative grounds.

    They banned Bieber? I never thought I’d agree with the ChiComs on anything important. But THAT’S important.

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  • @melanf

    And popular culture in Russia become noticeably even more popularist and trashy just over last 10 years.
     
    This is not true. Russian cinema collapsed into the abyss (it happened 30 years ago), but literature successfully competes with American literature (in Russia). Industry TV series and cartoons also developing successfully.
    Painting today is marginal art, but the collapse of communism went to the benefit of painting
    http://tot-gallery.ru/images/737234_novoselov-hudozhnik.jpg
    For the architecture, too
    http://fototerra.ru/photo/Russia/Hrjaschevka/medium-251836.jpg

    Both examples would be called kitsch in the West. I have to say that the building is… a bit… over the top, for a modern structure.

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    • Replies: @melanf

    Both examples would be called kitsch in the West. I have to say that the building is… a bit… over the top, for a modern structure.
     
    But in the West, evaluate as a masterpiece painting "Black square" and build such monumental buildings (St Bride's Church, "one of the finest examples of British twentieth-century ecclesiastical architecture" )
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/St_Brides_EK05.jpg

    And this Western architectural genius rebuilt Cologne
    http://i.imgur.com/3O3CWBu.jpg

    Because of this, I don't care about rating of art in the "West".
    Architecture in Russia has certainly benefited from the fact that now people can build a "kitsch" for their tastes, instead of nightmares Le Corbusier and Bauhaus.

    And the painting won, as artists no longer have to paint workers and revolutionaries.
    Here the final works of students Of St. Petersburg Academy of Arts in 2016 is Clearly better than social realism
    https://yura-falyosa.livejournal.com/1500684.html

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  • @Anatoly Karlin

    He has been thoroughly Americanized during his time in America, as his Russian compatriots attest on other threads.
     
    "Compatriots" who do not actually live in Russia, and apparently Felix Keverich (who does live in Russia) doesn't count.

    Yes, but their position within the US has strengthened their Russian identity and sharpened their oposition to American values. But you, my dear Anatoly, have been absorbed into the Borg – but you do provide a unique hybrid perspective, perhaps.

    And I, for one, acknowledge your superiority.

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    Speaking of which, did you get Rise & Fall and if so, will you review it?

    1. No.

    2. No.

    3. Civilization went to shit after #4, which remains the best in the series along with #2.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I don't disagree with #4 being by far the best of the series, but I do think that RnF has managed to redeem it significantly. While the entire "era score" and "emergency action" concept feels extremely artificial(clearly was taken from a board game), its remarkably effective and actually makes each turn matter feel meaningful and matter again - whereas one of the main downfalls of previous games in my opinion was the "pass the turn feeling" once you had gotten to a level of advancement/power that seemed unchallenged.

    It has managed a sufficient level of complexity for it to be fun for me, at any rate. I'm sure that Firaxis will torpedo it soon because any game that isn't accessible to a moron with 9 working fingers must be simplified.

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  • Certainly Orthodoxy is a most important factor. The case of Romania and Greece are relevant. If Bulgaria’s, Slovakia’s or Croatia’s sympathies may be ascribed to a vague ‘slavic’ factor (neither Slovakia, nor Croatia are Orthodox countries), this can’t be taken into consideration in Romania or Greece. The case of Romania is even singled out as an anomaly, in view of the otherwise anti-Russian attitudes. But in fact these are due to the identification of Communism (universally loathed) with the ‘Russians’ who brought it to Romania. And also to the western propaganda which has affected the ‘cultured (and semi-cultured) classes’ since the inroads of “Europe” into the Balkans (centuries old), propaganda which was specifically anti-Orthodox and anti-Russian and influenced the politics (Unia).
    Russia in fact was the protector of the Orthodox in the Ottoman Empire and the populations never forgot. On the strictly religious, spiritual plan, relations between Romanian and Russian Churches have been intense and profound. In this respect Romania and Moldova should not be considered separately. Romanians know that Russians have been also victims of the same bringers of the ‘golden future’ of ‘Humankind’.
    Last year in October the Patriarch Kirill visited Romania and held together with Patriarch Daniel of Romania and hierarchs from the Balkans a common service for the victims of Communist atheist persecutions and it seems that it had a significant effect. The polls were conducted after this event. It might have been even a momentous event (although I still hold my breath).

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    • Replies: @Mikhail
    For that matter, relations between the Russian and Georgian Orthodox Christian churches have been quite good, despite what transpired in 2008, as well as before with Gamsakhurdia.
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  • @AaronB
    He has been thoroughly Americanized during his time in America, as his Russian compatriots attest on other threads. He has been assimilated into the Borg.

    Life in America is a constant series of assaults to your amygdala - the lizard part of the brain that deals with primitive emotions like status, survival, fear. It's a traumatic experience that hollows you out from the inside. Few people escape unscathed, and many succumb entirely. It's how psychopathic behavior spreads - to survive, you must join them. It has claimed our good Anatoly.

    It is possible that life in Russia will allow the anxiety to subside, as hits to Anatoly's amygdala grow less, and he will become less obsessed with being the "winner". But it will take years.

    In the meantime, I for one intend to pacify Anatoly - you are the winner, Anatoly, you have defeated your enemies, we all recognize your unbounded superiority.

    Such validation is my contribution to Anatoly 's mental health.

    He has been thoroughly Americanized during his time in America, as his Russian compatriots attest on other threads.

    “Compatriots” who do not actually live in Russia, and apparently Felix Keverich (who does live in Russia) doesn’t count.

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    Yes, but their position within the US has strengthened their Russian identity and sharpened their oposition to American values. But you, my dear Anatoly, have been absorbed into the Borg - but you do provide a unique hybrid perspective, perhaps.

    And I, for one, acknowledge your superiority.
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  • @szopen
    > schools in Polish language functioned and nobody was forbidding the Polish language

    That depends on a period. After the January Uprising I do not think there were many Polish language schools out there.

    In a number of influential circles, there has been tendency to comparatively exaggerate the cultural/linguistic restrictions of non-Russians in the Russian Empire, when compared to some other empires.

    Per capita wise, I sense that more Poles know Polish than Irish know Gaelic. Polish Catholic churches readily existed in the Russian Empire, with Denikin noting that his Polish mother regularly attended services in that denomination.

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    • Replies: @szopen

    I sense that more Poles know Polish than Irish know Gaelic. Polish Catholic churches readily existed in the Russian Empire,
     
    (1) Poland was under Russian rule for 100+ years, during which there was very inconsistent policy towards Polish. How long was Ireland under English?

    (2) The policies were inconsistent, depended on a period and on a region. For example, in Polesie (region in what is modern Belarus) at first Polish was freely teached and used as language of education, then after 1830s it was removed and teached only as a subject while Russian was language of education, then it was more or less reversed, then it was reversed again in 1860s. With catholic churches in 1864-67 there was an open attack, with closing churches, monasteries, changing them into orthodox ones; with forceful conversions etc. Then the politics of open attacks was abandoned; in 1890s there was official decree which allowed more religious freedom, which was however often violated by local authorities; and in 1904 (or 1905??) there was a decree of religious tolerance.

    And there were, of course, Polish "secret" unofficial schools and "kółka samokształceniowe", which occasionally were discovered, dissolved and participants punished. A "proof" that school "secretly teached Polish" was for example that a teacher was Roman-Catholic and had Polish-language schoolbook.
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  • @anonymous coward

    Is this for real? I daresay Swedes and Russians are on almost opposite sides of the psychological spectrum of the European peoples.
     
    Absolutely false. Russians are basically nordic Slavs. (Bear in mind that there's a large difference between northern and southern Russian psychotypes, but it's the northern one that is considered mainstream.)

    There's lots of cultural similarities between Russians and Swedes, but one very striking example is how Russians translate Swedish children's books. Not British or American or (say) Italian, but Swedish. Russians are very picky about their kids' upbringing, and it turns out it's the Swedish psychotype that Russians consider worthy enough to emulate.

    (E.g., There's no Dr. Seuss in Russia, but Sven Nordqvist is very popular and always available. Not to mention the Swedish classics from Soviet times.)

    Dr. Seuss is untranslatable. Not surprising you don’t find it in Russia.

    Modern English children’s lit is too fractured to point to just a few “best” authors. But I checked The Diary of a Wimpy Kid (I own every book in this series.) Yep, it has been translated.

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  • @Mr. Hack
    SREBRENICA GENOCIDE DENIER: MICHAEL AVERKO (MIKE AVERKO)

    In attempting to portray the deaths of 8,000 to 10,000 Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) as an exaggeration or a fabrication, Srebrenica genocide deniers, such as Michael Averko, wildly manipulate geopolitical data, reference works, bedrock historical facts, judicial findings and other sources of information and reportage. Another centerpiece of “revisionist” propaganda attacks the objectivity and legal validity of the International Criminal Tribunal (ICTY) and the International Court of Justice (ICJ), where the general history of the genocide was first established. As such, Michael Averko’s credibility is shattered. Opinion is cheap, everybody has it. Srebrenica genocide is not a matter of anybody’s opinion, it’s a judicial fact.
     
    http://michael-averko-mike-averko.blogspot.com/2008/06/srebrenica-genocide-denier-michael.html

    One troll (you) referencing another, minus any successful rebuke of what I’ve actually said on the subject:

    https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201507091024399030/

    http://silentcrownews.com/wordpress/?p=4712

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    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Not really Mickey, the author, does more than an adequate job of discrediting your biased and inaccurate views:

    Srebrenica genocide denier and a collumnist for the Serb-nationalist web site Serbianna, Michael Averko (aka: Mike Averko), has been circulating unsolicited emails trying to discredit a world renowned scholar, Dr Marko Attila Hoare. Apparently, he was upset because Dr Hoare condemned Averko's Srebrenica Genocide denial comments at Global Voices. After embarrassing himself on Global Voices and admitting that he has reduced himself to a Srebrenica genocide denier, he quickly run away to Guardian forums and opened a new topic attempting to rally support from other deniers, revisionists, and conspiracy theorists. As a result, Dr Marko Attila Hoare responded by issuing a statement on his blog, condemning ongoing Srebrenica genocide denial, and Michael Averko's unsolicited spam.


    Michael Averko's actions are calculated, but useless, considering that in his E-mail he refers to the United Nation's International Criminal Tribunal "kangaroo court," and praises himself as being "considerably more objective than Hoare." But, even a fool knows that if Michael Averko had any objectivity, dignity, or intelligence, he wouldn't be what he is - a pathetic Srebrenica genocide denier and an apologist for radical ultra-nationalist Serbian politics in the Balkans.
     
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  • @inertial
    Still doesn't make much sense. Deport to Siberia? Sure. Just kill a bunch of people without a trial and then deny it for decades? Highly unusual. In the 1930s, no matter how much of a sham they were, there were always trials with copious paperwork. But not in this case and only this.

    The geopolitical considerations make no sense either. Finland wasn't conquered but a piece of it was, just like with Poland and Romania (for some values of "conquered.") Besides, from the Soviet point of view this wasn't like "let's go and dismember Poland and destroy it forever." It was "let's go and retake Ukrainian and Belorussian lands stolen by Poland 20 years ago." So you expel or deport but why kill?That's is just not the Soviet MO, not in this way.

    But so you know whose MO it is was? Who at the very same time was performing mass executions of Polish intelligentsia, openly as well as secretly?

    Nazis.

    I am thinking there must have been some kind of secret agreement between German and Soviet governments to murder captive Polish officers. Whose idea was it? Probably German. They seemed to had prepared this for a long time (lists of prominent citizens and so on.) Perhaps they were even invited by the Soviets to do the did. This would certainly explain how the prisoners were killed using German guns, even though there are no records of the NKVD ever owning, acquiring, or ever using these weapons.

    Perhaps they were even invited by the Soviets to do the did.

    I know about Intelligenzaktion, and yes, Nazi German rule certainly was worse for Poles than Soviet rule, and had more radical goals. But Vasily Blochin wasn’t German. Don’t see why there’s supposed to be anything strange about NKVD murdering Poles…they had done much the same with Russians and other Soviet citizens after all.

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  • @Mr. Hack

    They aren’t so far away from Russia. Ukraine separates Bulgaria from Russia, with Bulgaria being in the same hood as Montenegro, Serbia, Greece and Cyprus.

    It’s only in recent history, that much of Ukraine has become formally separated from Russia.
     

    Two more 'brainfarts' from the master. :-)

    In your select excerpts, there’s only one (not two) brain farts, which I quickly caught on my own. Much better than your record.

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  • @German_reader

    Somewhat relative to Katyn, were the thousands of Soviet POWs who died under miserable Polish prison conditions during the Soviet-Polish War.
     
    That doesn't really seem to be comparable. As far as I know, it has never been established those pows died due to deliberate neglect in the sense that the Poles actively wanted them to die (they certainly didn't just give them a bullet to the back of the head like at Katyn). And was Stalin such a humanitarian that he cared much about their fate (to be distinguished from the humiliation he may have felt himself)? Seems very doubtful to me, given how little he cared even about those taken prisoner by the Germans in WW2.

    Stalin was a murdering bastard, who I don’t approve of. That said, it’s not so untypical for abusive parents to be aghast when their children get abused by others. There’s also the matter of two wrongs not making a right, with hypocrisy not being a virtue.

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  • @Swedish Family

    Bildt advocated some things you don’t care for and had a seat on a think tank board, ergo you fancy it’s totally reasonable for LondonBob to offer paranoid ass-pulls. Got it.
     
    LondonBob might have referred to the Wikileaks report that Bildt, in 1976, leaked secret information about an ongoing negotiation to a US emissary, who in turn informed the CIA. I don't believe he is or ever was a spy, but for Bildt and his kind, Sweden's and America's national interests are one and the same. In this, he is a rather typical Pax Americana comprador.

    In this, he is a rather typical Pax Americana comprador.

    I understand your point and I despise you for it.

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    • Replies: @for-the-record
    I understand your point and I despise you for it.

    Why the need to be so personal? Do you really think you are so superior to the rest of us? Reading your posts (not all of which are useless, by any means) I am reminded of the saying (attributed to Lord Melbourne, I believe, but no doubt you can correct me):

    Would that I were as certain of any one thing as you are of everything.
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  • @German_reader

    But the Soviets didn’t shoot thousands of Finnish officers, or Latvian officers, or Estonian, or Romanian, or even German
     
    They did kill and deport elites in Estonia and Latvia (and NKVD shot a substantial number of prisoners just before the Germans came in 1941).
    Finland wasn't conquered, and Germany and Romania were just defeated enemy nations, not to be integrated into the Soviet Union like the Baltic states and what was then Eastern Poland (or maybe the Soviet Union had just become somewhat nicer by 1944/45? It did get steadily less murderous compared to the 1930s after all).

    Still doesn’t make much sense. Deport to Siberia? Sure. Just kill a bunch of people without a trial and then deny it for decades? Highly unusual. In the 1930s, no matter how much of a sham they were, there were always trials with copious paperwork. But not in this case and only this.

    The geopolitical considerations make no sense either. Finland wasn’t conquered but a piece of it was, just like with Poland and Romania (for some values of “conquered.”) Besides, from the Soviet point of view this wasn’t like “let’s go and dismember Poland and destroy it forever.” It was “let’s go and retake Ukrainian and Belorussian lands stolen by Poland 20 years ago.” So you expel or deport but why kill?That’s is just not the Soviet MO, not in this way.

    But so you know whose MO it is was? Who at the very same time was performing mass executions of Polish intelligentsia, openly as well as secretly?

    Nazis.

    I am thinking there must have been some kind of secret agreement between German and Soviet governments to murder captive Polish officers. Whose idea was it? Probably German. They seemed to had prepared this for a long time (lists of prominent citizens and so on.) Perhaps they were even invited by the Soviets to do the did. This would certainly explain how the prisoners were killed using German guns, even though there are no records of the NKVD ever owning, acquiring, or ever using these weapons.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    Perhaps they were even invited by the Soviets to do the did.
     
    I know about Intelligenzaktion, and yes, Nazi German rule certainly was worse for Poles than Soviet rule, and had more radical goals. But Vasily Blochin wasn't German. Don't see why there's supposed to be anything strange about NKVD murdering Poles...they had done much the same with Russians and other Soviet citizens after all.
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  • @Daniel Chieh
    Speaking of which, did you get Rise & Fall and if so, will you review it?

    The series has been dumbed-down console trash since the release of Civ 5.

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  • @DFH

    Somewhat relative to Katyn, were the thousands of Soviet POWs who died under miserable Polish prison conditions during the Soviet-Polish War
     
    Not comparable at all. The Poles were fighting for their continued national survival, the Soviets at Katyn were deliberately trying to exterminate the Polish upper-class.

    More accurately put, the Stalin led Soviets were going after Polish military folks likely with ties to that earlier war in question, that included thousands of Soviets dying under horrid Polish prison conditions.

    BTW, when Poland attacked mostly non-Polish inhabited former Russian Empire territory in 1919, it was engaging in imperialism and not “national survival”. See:

    http://www.eurasiareview.com/08042016-fuzzy-history-how-poland-saved-the-world-from-russia-analysis/

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    • Replies: @szopen
    POLAND HAD NOT ATTACKED RUSSIAN EMPIRE.

    It would be more precise to write Red Army which invaded and attacked Poland in 1919 (attacking for exmaple majority Polish Vilnius). The invasion was called "operation Vistula", BTW. I have described the Vilnius situation above (Polish self-defense units formed by locals, from majority Polish population, attacked by Red ARmy, later Polish army returning and defeating Red Army.

    First fights were in majority Polish area near Vilnius. And since Soviets declared Polish partitions as void, it means they recognised the area as not being part of Russia. To describe them as "Poland attacked Russia" would be the same as describing any Polish uprising as "POland invaded Russia!"

    , @szopen
    I have read the original Peck's article, to which the article quoted by you was the answer.

    In short, both are wrong. Peck's somehow seems to think that the war was started by Polish offensive on Kiev in April 1919 (!!!), which is, obviously, wrong. It's hard to say when the war started exactly. The first fights were between local bolsheviks contra local Polish self-defense units (they were called "Samoobrona"). The first I had identified were in Vilnius, in fact in December 1918. Local Poles were then attacked by Red Army and withdraw. One might argue that it means Red Army attacked Poland, since I think a day or two before the first fight local self-defense units were formally declared part of Polish army - and Vilnius area was majority Polish anyway (slightly more than 50% in Vilnius alone, and definetely majority in rural areas around Vilnius).

    Later Polish army defeated Red Army and THEN Polish offensive stopped in 1919, because Pilsudski did not want to support Denikin. The last fight was attack in cooperation with Latvia, which succeeded in taking some areas which were then given to Latvia. Then offensive stopped and peave negotiations started.

    Then in April 1920 (not 1919!!!) Poland started yet another offensive on Kiev, which was designed to support Petlura state (Kiev was to be capitol of Ukraine). Peck is factually wrong is describing it as "start of the war".

    In fact I think the war was a mistake. In 1919 bolsheviks offered to give Poland Mińsk (!), for example. However, Pilsudski was a dreamer and he wanted to establish Ukraine (allied with Poland). That's why he refused bolshevik peace offers and went on with war. Some also argue that bolshevik peace offer was dishonest and that after defeating the whites, they would attack Poland.

    One thing however is sure, war was NOT started by Polish offensive on Kiev.
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  • @Daniel Chieh

    Lol, the Japanese despise Americans. Japan also has a rich literature of the “noble loser” – as an American, you couldn’t understand such refinement.
     
    Mr. Karlin is Russian.

    He has been thoroughly Americanized during his time in America, as his Russian compatriots attest on other threads. He has been assimilated into the Borg.

    Life in America is a constant series of assaults to your amygdala – the lizard part of the brain that deals with primitive emotions like status, survival, fear. It’s a traumatic experience that hollows you out from the inside. Few people escape unscathed, and many succumb entirely. It’s how psychopathic behavior spreads – to survive, you must join them. It has claimed our good Anatoly.

    It is possible that life in Russia will allow the anxiety to subside, as hits to Anatoly’s amygdala grow less, and he will become less obsessed with being the “winner”. But it will take years.

    In the meantime, I for one intend to pacify Anatoly – you are the winner, Anatoly, you have defeated your enemies, we all recognize your unbounded superiority.

    Such validation is my contribution to Anatoly ‘s mental health.

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    He has been thoroughly Americanized during his time in America, as his Russian compatriots attest on other threads.
     
    "Compatriots" who do not actually live in Russia, and apparently Felix Keverich (who does live in Russia) doesn't count.
    , @Anon

    Such validation is my contribution to Anatoly ‘s mental health.
     
    If you wonder why people sometimes consider you a troll, this is it, right here.
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  • @melanf

    orry, but I have to disagree. Although, a caveat: I haven’t been reading fiction for at least 10-15 years. However, I did read most so-called “classics” (along with mountains of trash) & I would say that general perception is optical illusion- just because Russians have two supreme writers, Dostoevsky & Tolstoy, who are in company with very few supreme Western writers (Homer, Aeschylus, Dante, Shakespeare, Cervantes, Goethe,..), it doesn’t mean that 20th-21st C Russian literature can compete with American writing.
    Even during 19th C, Emerson, Melville, James & Whitman (especially Whitman) were great, close to supreme authors.
     
    What parameters do you evaluate? Here's how for example you'll be able to compare Whitman to Mikhail Lermontov?

    There are no absolute parameters. You have to go with, I’d say, informed public, more-or less general consensus & various author’s influences.

    Whitman is, in my opinion, enormously greater writer than Lermontov & his book of life is simply vast, it contains both an Upanishadic sensibility, rough & cruel depictions of reality (epic tradition), transcendence & immanence (if you like, though it is an inflated language).

    But, that’s my opinion.

    As for his influence, he is, along with Baudelaire, the most influential 19th C poet. His heirs are not just English-speaking writers like D.H.Lawrence, Eliot, Hart Crane, Henry Miller, … but also Emile Verhaeren, Neruda & many vitalist poets & novelists, especially after WW1.

    Canonization is a process, but Dostoevsky, for instance, was canonized as supreme writer by a host of other writers (Zweig, R.L. Stevenson, Hamsun, Mann, Kafka, Proust, Andreev, Camus, Faulkner, Garcia Marquez, Leonov, Coetzee, Gaddis, Bellow, Philip Roth, ..).

    Most 20th C Russian literature, even with its most prominent authors (Blok, Akhmatova, Platonov, Remizov, Sholokhov, Pasternak, Mandel’shtam, Solzhenitsyn, Nabokov (Russian phase), Bulgakov, ..) simply is not a match to great sequence of American authors, going from late phase of Henry James to Gaddis, McCarthy or Updike. American writers are more read & influential, and this is simply a fact.

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    • Replies: @inertial
    1. You are comparing literature in your native language vs. literature in translation.

    2. It is unlikely you know much about the 20th century Russian literature. For example, some of the best books written in Russian in the last 70 years are the WWII novels - Bondarev, Bykov, Vasiliev, Kurochkin, Nekrasov (the other one,) Kazakevich, etc. Some of these books had even been translated (John Derbyshire had read a few of them.)
    , @Val
    I agree with inertial on the topic of the 20th century Russian literature. It is awesome. I discovered some of it only due to university lectures, and those were among the best books I've ever read. Profound, thought-provoking and quite often heart-rending in a way I hadn't thought possible for works of literary art to be. I'm not speaking about the most prominent, i.e. the best-known, authors though. Being more influential does not always equal being better.
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  • @Anon
    "Might is right" is usually spouted by resentful nerds with some kind of twisted power fantasy, not the winners. The top brass of the alt-right, who get giddy speechifying about strength and power while being flabby dorks with a track record of always losing, are a perfect example.

    Yeah, it’s a bit premature to talk of an “empire with global power projection capabilities” as Richard Spencer does when you’ve got not much more than a Twitter account. Also quite off-putting to “normies”.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    when you’ve got not much more than a Twitter account

    And subject to deletion by people who are in most respects your mortal enemies.
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  • @German_reader

    The Gauls probably lived in ways far more compatible in nature and surely had interesting religious and cultural beliefs, but ultimately, our sympathies lay with the Romans who subdued them
     
    The Gauls displayed skulls of slain enemies in their homes and, at least according to the Romans, had other interesting customs like human sacrifice...but quite apart from that, I think it's simplistic to claim "everybody likes a winner, losers get forgotten". There are lots of cases in history where the side that lost is later romanticized, judged to have been in the right or seen as a precursor to later movements. The Gauls were "our ancestors" to French nationalists who created a cult about Vercingetorix. The commies worshipped the Paris commune. Our view of the Pelopponnesian war derives from a historian, Thucydides, who had fought on the side of the losers of that war. The confederacy lost the war, but inspired a whole "lost cause" movement. And so on. "Might makes right" may be true to a substantial degree, but it's not the whole story.
    And I'm not even convinced AK is completely right about his example of Japan, the US and the atomic bombings. Do the Japanese really "love" America? At least those Japanese who read mangas about Imperial Japan winning the Pacific war probably don't...

    “Might is right” is usually spouted by resentful nerds with some kind of twisted power fantasy, not the winners. The top brass of the alt-right, who get giddy speechifying about strength and power while being flabby dorks with a track record of always losing, are a perfect example.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    Yeah, it's a bit premature to talk of an "empire with global power projection capabilities" as Richard Spencer does when you've got not much more than a Twitter account. Also quite off-putting to "normies".
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  • @LondonBob
    An interesting one in British politics is David Milliband. He was seen as the next Labour leader, heir to Blair and continually hyped by the media. Amusingly enough his brother Ed stabbed him in the back and just beat him to leadership of the Labour party. Ed went on to oppose airstrikes on Syria after the Turkish false flag chemical attack with parliament voting against the war resolution and the whole regime project failed. David retired as an MP and now earns a huge salary as head of the International Rescue Committee. David would undoubtedly have supported the attack on Syria, the International Rescue Committee is a well known CIA front and parrots the US line on all sorts of supposed humanitarian crises, as well as providing covers for the CIA in foreign countries. Politicians are bought and sold cheaply.

    What I found staggering about the International Rescue Committee when I checked it out was that it was almost entirely government funded (more than one government). David Milliband’s salary seemed excessive for a charity too. I can’t remember the details.

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    As much as we wish it was different, we see this repeatedly. The Gauls probably lived in ways far more compatible in nature and surely had interesting religious and cultural beliefs, but ultimately, our sympathies lay with the Romans who subdued them. There is much high art of the Rape of the Sabines: do they condemn the Romans for their treachery, or do they extol Roman courage and audacity?

    The Gauls probably lived in ways far more compatible in nature and surely had interesting religious and cultural beliefs, but ultimately, our sympathies lay with the Romans who subdued them

    The Gauls displayed skulls of slain enemies in their homes and, at least according to the Romans, had other interesting customs like human sacrifice…but quite apart from that, I think it’s simplistic to claim “everybody likes a winner, losers get forgotten”. There are lots of cases in history where the side that lost is later romanticized, judged to have been in the right or seen as a precursor to later movements. The Gauls were “our ancestors” to French nationalists who created a cult about Vercingetorix. The commies worshipped the Paris commune. Our view of the Pelopponnesian war derives from a historian, Thucydides, who had fought on the side of the losers of that war. The confederacy lost the war, but inspired a whole “lost cause” movement. And so on. “Might makes right” may be true to a substantial degree, but it’s not the whole story.
    And I’m not even convinced AK is completely right about his example of Japan, the US and the atomic bombings. Do the Japanese really “love” America? At least those Japanese who read mangas about Imperial Japan winning the Pacific war probably don’t…

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    • Replies: @Anon
    "Might is right" is usually spouted by resentful nerds with some kind of twisted power fantasy, not the winners. The top brass of the alt-right, who get giddy speechifying about strength and power while being flabby dorks with a track record of always losing, are a perfect example.
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  • @Dmitry

    Pigs don’t deserve better, because there are plenty of documented cases of pigs eating humans (e.g. there was a case a few years ago where mafiosi fed people alive to pigs). If they had the chance they’d eat us, so it’s ok if we eat them.
     
    If size difference between humans, and dogs or cats, would be reversed sufficiently that you resemble their typical prey animals, then dogs and cats will happily have you for lunch.

    On the other hand, however large a sheep would be, at worse it would trample you to death.

    Morality of animals, or lack thereof, gives no specific legitimacy to eating them, or any factor in role in which animals we actually do eat.

    Source for packs of stray dogs eating people? We’re actually smaller than typical wolf prey animals.

    Also, when a couple of large/medium dogs want to kill you, they will.

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  • @Bardon Kaldian

    Which is ridiculous. Russian literature is among the best in the world. I would only place English or German at similar standing. American literature is not bad per se, Hemingway, Steinbeck, Twain et al were of a high quality, but not quite reaching the best Russian writers. However, standards have completely collapsed in the last half-century. The chasm between contemporary Russian and American literature has become much wider, in favor of Russian literature.
     
    Sorry, but I have to disagree. Although, a caveat: I haven't been reading fiction for at least 10-15 years. However, I did read most so-called "classics" (along with mountains of trash) & I would say that general perception is optical illusion- just because Russians have two supreme writers, Dostoevsky & Tolstoy, who are in company with very few supreme Western writers (Homer, Aeschylus, Dante, Shakespeare, Cervantes, Goethe,..), it doesn't mean that 20th-21st C Russian literature can compete with American writing.

    Even during 19th C, Emerson, Melville, James & Whitman (especially Whitman) were great, close to supreme authors. During 20th C American lit. was superior to Russian (Eliot, Faulkner, Cormac McCarthy, Joseph Heller, William Gaddis ..) & even brainless authors were hugely popular everywhere (Jack London, Hemingway,..), not to mention sci fi, from Heinlein to Dick &

    I have some reservations about Nabokov (in my opinion, he's no more than great stylist), but sum total of English-language imaginative literature after 1917. is evidently greater that Russian, and Americans dominate this field.

    German-language literature is richer than English-language, at least in 20th C (Schnitzler, Kraus, Mann, Musil, Kafka, Rilke, Hesse, two Walsers, Broch, Grass, Freud (as essayist), Canetti, Trakl, Junger..), but it suffers from a fatal defect- it is philosophy masked as fiction & basically nothing happens all the time.

    orry, but I have to disagree. Although, a caveat: I haven’t been reading fiction for at least 10-15 years. However, I did read most so-called “classics” (along with mountains of trash) & I would say that general perception is optical illusion- just because Russians have two supreme writers, Dostoevsky & Tolstoy, who are in company with very few supreme Western writers (Homer, Aeschylus, Dante, Shakespeare, Cervantes, Goethe,..), it doesn’t mean that 20th-21st C Russian literature can compete with American writing.
    Even during 19th C, Emerson, Melville, James & Whitman (especially Whitman) were great, close to supreme authors.

    What parameters do you evaluate? Here’s how for example you’ll be able to compare Whitman to Mikhail Lermontov?

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    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    There are no absolute parameters. You have to go with, I'd say, informed public, more-or less general consensus & various author's influences.

    Whitman is, in my opinion, enormously greater writer than Lermontov & his book of life is simply vast, it contains both an Upanishadic sensibility, rough & cruel depictions of reality (epic tradition), transcendence & immanence (if you like, though it is an inflated language).

    But, that's my opinion.

    As for his influence, he is, along with Baudelaire, the most influential 19th C poet. His heirs are not just English-speaking writers like D.H.Lawrence, Eliot, Hart Crane, Henry Miller, ... but also Emile Verhaeren, Neruda & many vitalist poets & novelists, especially after WW1.

    Canonization is a process, but Dostoevsky, for instance, was canonized as supreme writer by a host of other writers (Zweig, R.L. Stevenson, Hamsun, Mann, Kafka, Proust, Andreev, Camus, Faulkner, Garcia Marquez, Leonov, Coetzee, Gaddis, Bellow, Philip Roth, ..).

    Most 20th C Russian literature, even with its most prominent authors (Blok, Akhmatova, Platonov, Remizov, Sholokhov, Pasternak, Mandel'shtam, Solzhenitsyn, Nabokov (Russian phase), Bulgakov, ..) simply is not a match to great sequence of American authors, going from late phase of Henry James to Gaddis, McCarthy or Updike. American writers are more read & influential, and this is simply a fact.
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  • @AaronB
    Lol, the Japanese despise Americans. Japan also has a rich literature of the "noble loser" - as an American, you couldn't understand such refinement.

    When the British were supreme they were hated across Europe, the American Age brought contempt for America, Jews today are widely despised, Palestinians despise Israelis - the list is endless.

    The general reaction of mankind to the "winner" is an almost intuitive understanding that his victory is highly contingent and expresses no natural superiority, and is the result of striving - i.e the "winner" is chiefly distinguished by wanting it more, and willing to sacrifice the good things in life to get it.

    But for those who do "want it more", they cannot have such self awareness. It is also extremely important for the "winner" to believe that others admire him for - that is, in fact, the whole point of it, being validated by others.

    We should freely offer validation to such people, to limit their destructiveness.

    You are right, Anatoly, we all admire the winner. We bow down.

    Perhaps the "winners" can then relax a bit.

    Lol, the Japanese despise Americans. Japan also has a rich literature of the “noble loser” – as an American, you couldn’t understand such refinement.

    Mr. Karlin is Russian.

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    He has been thoroughly Americanized during his time in America, as his Russian compatriots attest on other threads. He has been assimilated into the Borg.

    Life in America is a constant series of assaults to your amygdala - the lizard part of the brain that deals with primitive emotions like status, survival, fear. It's a traumatic experience that hollows you out from the inside. Few people escape unscathed, and many succumb entirely. It's how psychopathic behavior spreads - to survive, you must join them. It has claimed our good Anatoly.

    It is possible that life in Russia will allow the anxiety to subside, as hits to Anatoly's amygdala grow less, and he will become less obsessed with being the "winner". But it will take years.

    In the meantime, I for one intend to pacify Anatoly - you are the winner, Anatoly, you have defeated your enemies, we all recognize your unbounded superiority.

    Such validation is my contribution to Anatoly 's mental health.
    , @Dmitry

    “Compatriots” who do not actually live in Russia, and apparently Felix Keverich (who does live in Russia) doesn’t count.

     

    Saker sounds like he doesn't even live in a different country, but in a different universe from one the rest of us inhabit.

    Mr. Karlin is Russian.

     

    He grew up in America? But he says in an earlier post how he lives in Moscow - so really he is an inhabitant of a more civilized state within a state.
    , @Anon

    as an American, you couldn’t understand such refinement.
     
    Says the half-Catholic Buddhist Cathar.
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  • @Anatoly Karlin

    It is human nature to respect the strong and despise the weak
     
    This is what it all comes down to. People instinctively like winners, and dislike losers.

    The Americans dropped two nukes* on Japan and the Japanese love them regardless. Moral considerations are secondary ones, at best. Conversely, if central planning actually had turned out to be superior to markets, instead of a dismal failure, I’m reasonably sure Poles and Balts would love Russians today, a few minor unpleasantries from the 1940s regardless.

    Of course the fact that sovoks tend to actively work to make themselves unlikeable doesn't help matters.

    * (Needless to say, I am certainly not one of the people who care let alone condemn the US for dropping nukes on Japan).

    Lol, the Japanese despise Americans. Japan also has a rich literature of the “noble loser” – as an American, you couldn’t understand such refinement.

    When the British were supreme they were hated across Europe, the American Age brought contempt for America, Jews today are widely despised, Palestinians despise Israelis – the list is endless.

    The general reaction of mankind to the “winner” is an almost intuitive understanding that his victory is highly contingent and expresses no natural superiority, and is the result of striving – i.e the “winner” is chiefly distinguished by wanting it more, and willing to sacrifice the good things in life to get it.

    But for those who do “want it more”, they cannot have such self awareness. It is also extremely important for the “winner” to believe that others admire him for – that is, in fact, the whole point of it, being validated by others.

    We should freely offer validation to such people, to limit their destructiveness.

    You are right, Anatoly, we all admire the winner. We bow down.

    Perhaps the “winners” can then relax a bit.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Lol, the Japanese despise Americans. Japan also has a rich literature of the “noble loser” – as an American, you couldn’t understand such refinement.
     
    Mr. Karlin is Russian.
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  • @German_reader

    And especially in the mentality of America, the world’s most successful country – as where the eating of predators like dogs* by Koreans, or the hunting of killer whales, is viewed as unquestionable evil, while the eating equally cute (but herbivore) animals like cows and sheep is nothing to write back home about.
     
    Westerners don't find eating dogs appalling because of dogs being "predators", but because they're probably the animals most capable of forming a close bond with humans (having evolved with humans they're capable of interpreting human gestures like few or no other animals)...it just seems unnatural to kill close companions. Real predators like bears and wolves were regarded as a threat and had been exterminated over large parts of Western Europe by the 19th century.
    Don't really want to get involved in this debate, but have to say I find AK's and your "Might is right" attitude disturbing...definitely counterproductive if the goal is to present a positive image of Russia and Russians, not just preaching to the already converted. There's a lot of anti-Russian hysteria and ugly stereotypes in the West, but this quasi-imperial contempt for the national sentiments of "lesser" nations won't help in dispelling that.

    As much as we wish it was different, we see this repeatedly. The Gauls probably lived in ways far more compatible in nature and surely had interesting religious and cultural beliefs, but ultimately, our sympathies lay with the Romans who subdued them. There is much high art of the Rape of the Sabines: do they condemn the Romans for their treachery, or do they extol Roman courage and audacity?

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    The Gauls probably lived in ways far more compatible in nature and surely had interesting religious and cultural beliefs, but ultimately, our sympathies lay with the Romans who subdued them
     
    The Gauls displayed skulls of slain enemies in their homes and, at least according to the Romans, had other interesting customs like human sacrifice...but quite apart from that, I think it's simplistic to claim "everybody likes a winner, losers get forgotten". There are lots of cases in history where the side that lost is later romanticized, judged to have been in the right or seen as a precursor to later movements. The Gauls were "our ancestors" to French nationalists who created a cult about Vercingetorix. The commies worshipped the Paris commune. Our view of the Pelopponnesian war derives from a historian, Thucydides, who had fought on the side of the losers of that war. The confederacy lost the war, but inspired a whole "lost cause" movement. And so on. "Might makes right" may be true to a substantial degree, but it's not the whole story.
    And I'm not even convinced AK is completely right about his example of Japan, the US and the atomic bombings. Do the Japanese really "love" America? At least those Japanese who read mangas about Imperial Japan winning the Pacific war probably don't...
    , @for-the-record
    but ultimately, our sympathies lay with the Romans who subdued them

    Speak for yourself. If you haven't already read it, you might enjoy Terry Jones' Barbarians (also a BBC documentary).

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Terry-Jones-Barbarians-Alan-Ereira/dp/056353916X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1519868624&sr=8-1&keywords=terry+jones+the+barbarians
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  • @Polish Perspective

    literature successfully competes with American literature
     
    Which is ridiculous. Russian literature is among the best in the world. I would only place English or German at similar standing. American literature is not bad per se, Hemingway, Steinbeck, Twain et al were of a high quality, but not quite reaching the best Russian writers. However, standards have completely collapsed in the last half-century. The chasm between contemporary Russian and American literature has become much wider, in favor of Russian literature.

    I obviously cannot comment on pop culture but in my view it tends to be garbage everywhere, though there are some places with refreshing pushback. China is one example where there is strict cultural discipline(see the recent and most-welcome banning of hiphop and similar trash). They also banned Justin Bieber.

    People may condemn that as authoritarian, but I'll just point out that the West does a lot of social enforcement policing (often by SJWs) all the time. China is merely condemned because it does so on national-conservative grounds.

    Which is ridiculous. Russian literature is among the best in the world. I would only place English or German at similar standing. American literature is not bad per se, Hemingway, Steinbeck, Twain et al were of a high quality, but not quite reaching the best Russian writers.

    Well, irrelevant to greatness in the 1990s the book market in Russia is completely dominated by Anglo-American authors. Later, aboriginal literature began a counterattack, and now there is a balance between translated and domestic literature.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    Le based Hitler was vegetarian.

    I'm nowhere near as hardcore and just avoid pork.

    The H-man’s vegetarianism is exaggerated, and as was often the case something he personally played up to burnish his image.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2004/02/carnifuhrer.html

    A 1937 New York Times profile called “At Home with the Furher,” for example, describes Hitler as a vegetarian, though notes that he “occasionally relishes a slice of ham.” (Hitler apparently celebrated Germany’s 1938 annexation of Czechoslovakia with a slice of ham, a Prague specialty.) And in her 1964 book, The Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook, Dione Lucas, who worked at a Hamburg hotel that Hitler frequented, writes, “I do not mean to spoil your appetite for stuffed squab, but you might be interested to know that it was a great favorite with Hitler. … Let us not hold that against a fine recipe though.”

    And while we’re at it, let’s not forget that the H-man was a teetotaler, completely abstained from tobacco, favorably regarded Islam, and hated Giuseppe Verdi.

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  • @melanf

    Are there any good studies about this (that is ones not written by Polish or Russian nationalists or communists)?
     
    About research on the subject of non-Russian and non-Polish authors I do not know. But the fact of the execution to which I pointed out an absolutely undeniable (it is recognized by the Polish side)

    To be more precise, it was 199 prisoners. One was pardoned in the last moment because he saved Polish officer.

    And I do not think there was ever another such order.

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  • @Dmitry
    Kind of out of date. Recent research shows fish are lot more intelligent than previously thought.

    Can you share links? It’ll be interesting, given their general lack of comparative neural structures.

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  • @melanf

    Not comparable at all. The Poles were fighting for their continued national survival
     
    That is, for" national survival " Poland needed the killing of prisoners, Jewish pogroms, mass rapes, etc.? If so, then the lands seized in 39 by the Soviet troops were also necessary for "national survival", and accordingly any crimes were justified/s

    Poland needed the killing of prisoners, Jewish pogroms, mass rapes, etc.

    Melanf,

    There is a difference between occasional crimes done by soldiers or officers, which happen in every army; and state policy. Polish state’s policy (or POlish army’s policy) had not consisted in killing prisoners, Jewish pogroms or mass rapes, even though such might occasionally happen. If you really investigated the PoW issue, you surely know that the poor conditions in PoW camps wereof interest to parliamentary commission, which visited the camps and demanded changes, which then happen – the mortality of PoWs drastically fell down (IIRC the commanders of some camps even were punished).

    In contrast, Katyń (and other similar crimes) was result of state policy.

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  • @melanf

    Are there any good studies about this (that is ones not written by Polish or Russian nationalists or communists)?
     
    About research on the subject of non-Russian and non-Polish authors I do not know. But the fact of the execution to which I pointed out an absolutely undeniable (it is recognized by the Polish side)

    Well sure, but one would need to know the context of that event to evaluate it. It’s quite possible, or maybe even likely, Polish forces committed some war crimes in 1920. But Katyn wasn’t even a war crime (there was no ongoing war between Poland and the Soviet Union when it happened), it was just an act of cold-blooded, deliberate mass killing, so it seems doubtful to me the events of 1920 were equivalent.
    Anyway, I’m not really qualified to judge those issues…would be great if someday relations between Poland and Russia become good enough that a joint historical commission or something of the sort could look into them without it all being used for mutual accusations in the present.

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  • @melanf

    As far as I know, it has never been established those pows died due to deliberate neglect in the sense that the Poles actively wanted them to die (they certainly didn’t just give them a bullet to the back of the head like at Katyn).
     
    For example, on August 24, 1920, 200 prisoners were shot by order of General V. Sikorski (who today is considered a national hero of Poland at the state level). Although there were no single massacres comparable in size to Katyn, the total number of civilians and prisoners killed by poles was large, probably much larger than the number of victims of Katyn.

    Well, you forgot to add, that it supposedly was a revenge for death of 200 Polish prisoners murdered by Cossacks (the other version taht it was a revenge for some other murders and rapes by Cossacks)

    the total number of civilians and prisoners killed by poles was large, probably much larger than the number of victims of Katyn.

    Most likely not.

    You forgot also that there were also Polish PoWs in Soviet camps in 1919-1921 war, and many of them died there too.

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  • @Thorfinnsson


    This is a strong moral argument for pescetarianism.
     
    All of the "moral" arguments in favor of pescetarianism, vegetarianism, veganism, and other such anti-human dietary doctrines are rooted in liberalism.

    Weakness worship, pathological altruism, squeamishness, excessive empathy, etc.

    There is no acceptable reason whatsoever to be a pescetarian.

    Le based Hitler was vegetarian.

    I’m nowhere near as hardcore and just avoid pork.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    The H-man's vegetarianism is exaggerated, and as was often the case something he personally played up to burnish his image.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2004/02/carnifuhrer.html


    A 1937 New York Times profile called "At Home with the Furher," for example, describes Hitler as a vegetarian, though notes that he "occasionally relishes a slice of ham." (Hitler apparently celebrated Germany's 1938 annexation of Czechoslovakia with a slice of ham, a Prague specialty.) And in her 1964 book, The Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook, Dione Lucas, who worked at a Hamburg hotel that Hitler frequented, writes, "I do not mean to spoil your appetite for stuffed squab, but you might be interested to know that it was a great favorite with Hitler. ... Let us not hold that against a fine recipe though."
     
    And while we're at it, let's not forget that the H-man was a teetotaler, completely abstained from tobacco, favorably regarded Islam, and hated Giuseppe Verdi.
    , @silviosilver

    I’m nowhere near as hardcore and just avoid pork.
     
    Aha, so the (((plot thickens)))...
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  • @Daniel Chieh
    This is a strong moral argument for pescetarianism.

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dJF3fY6rSP4/UpYibNasSvI/AAAAAAAAAU8/UG7NdGVbN2w/s1600/trout-fish-anatomy1.jpg

    Kind of out of date. Recent research shows fish are lot more intelligent than previously thought.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Can you share links? It'll be interesting, given their general lack of comparative neural structures.
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  • @German_reader
    Are there any good studies about this (that is ones not written by Polish or Russian nationalists or communists)?

    Are there any good studies about this (that is ones not written by Polish or Russian nationalists or communists)?

    About research on the subject of non-Russian and non-Polish authors I do not know. But the fact of the execution to which I pointed out an absolutely undeniable (it is recognized by the Polish side)

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    Well sure, but one would need to know the context of that event to evaluate it. It's quite possible, or maybe even likely, Polish forces committed some war crimes in 1920. But Katyn wasn't even a war crime (there was no ongoing war between Poland and the Soviet Union when it happened), it was just an act of cold-blooded, deliberate mass killing, so it seems doubtful to me the events of 1920 were equivalent.
    Anyway, I'm not really qualified to judge those issues...would be great if someday relations between Poland and Russia become good enough that a joint historical commission or something of the sort could look into them without it all being used for mutual accusations in the present.
    , @szopen
    To be more precise, it was 199 prisoners. One was pardoned in the last moment because he saved Polish officer.

    And I do not think there was ever another such order.

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  • @Art Deco
    LondonBob isn’t crazy.

    Bildt advocated some things you don't care for and had a seat on a think tank board, ergo you fancy it's totally reasonable for LondonBob to offer paranoid ass-pulls. Got it.

    Bildt advocated some things you don’t care for and had a seat on a think tank board, ergo you fancy it’s totally reasonable for LondonBob to offer paranoid ass-pulls. Got it.

    LondonBob might have referred to the Wikileaks report that Bildt, in 1976, leaked secret information about an ongoing negotiation to a US emissary, who in turn informed the CIA. I don’t believe he is or ever was a spy, but for Bildt and his kind, Sweden’s and America’s national interests are one and the same. In this, he is a rather typical Pax Americana comprador.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    In this, he is a rather typical Pax Americana comprador.

    I understand your point and I despise you for it.
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  • @Thorfinnsson


    The first bolded part is not a factor in modern Swedish society; the second is, but only in that it feeds confirmation bias about the threat of Russian expansionism. In the mind of most Swedes, the Winter War would be a historical footnote if Russia distanced itself from Stalin and its Soviet past.
     
    The state television network put out a number of documentaries about the Finnish War in 2009 to commemorate the bicentennial of that humiliating defeat and final destruction of the Swedish Empire. Obviously it's not a factor in modern Swedish society, but it's part of the national memory.

    Sorry, definitely can't agree on the Winter War. My family adopted a Finnish orphan from the Winter War. Her parents were killed by Soviet troops and the farm destroyed. My grandfather was at Karlberg at the time and directly knew people who volunteered to fight for Finland. Swedish society mobilized massive charitable aid for the Finns.

    The only thing one can say is that it was now a long time ago, but unlike Sweden's own wars with Russia it's still part of living memory.


    The absurdity of the first bolded part speaks for itself; the second is more false than true. While we were on guard against Soviet aggression, as well we should, Sweden was no less soft on communism than other European states. We had plenty of public figures supporting Fidel Castro, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot(!), and if memory serves, the Left Party was supported by the East German goverment well into the 1980s (Latvian Womans’s favorite commie, Lars Ohly, once went there on a state-sponsored study tour).
     
    Why is stating that hostility to Russia is in the blood absurd? I've never met people so thoroughly Russophobic as Swedes, and it absolutely predates Putin. Even Polish people are more reasonable.

    Would you consider such a statement absurd if made in the context of Britons and Frenchmen?

    The Palme government was soft on communism (it's worse than you think--Sweden gave foreign aid to North Vietnam during the Vietnam War and Palme compared America to Nazi Germany on national television), but not on defense. Palme authorized the Viggen and two classes of submarines. This is quite distinct from how other liberal/social democratic parties in Europe operated aside from Helmut Schmidt. And Palme's role in suppressing the Baader-Meinhof Gang shouldn't be forgotten.

    The East Germany thing gets weirder. East German propaganda reportedly claimed Sweden was allied with the regime, and in addition to various links between the Social Democrats and the SED there were links to Swedish industry. Ingvar Kamprad produced furniture for IKEA using East German prison labor for instance.

    Why is stating that hostility to Russia is in the blood absurd? I’ve never met people so thoroughly Russophobic as Swedes, and it absolutely predates Putin. Even Polish people are more reasonable.

    I probably read you too literally. If you put it like that, I don’t disagree. Yes, most Swedes are raised on scare stories about minisubs, honeypot traps, and undercover Spetsnaz troops with fluent Swedish. We also retain some colorful idioms from our imperial days. … annars kommer ryssen och tar dig is an age-old idiom meaning “… or else the Russians will come and get you” (e.g. “Eat, or else the Russians will come and get you!”). In the 90s, the Russian mob and nukes on the loose briefly replaced the former bogeymen, but then it was back to normal again with Putin.

    The East Germany thing gets weirder. East German propaganda reportedly claimed Sweden was allied with the regime, and in addition to various links between the Social Democrats and the SED there were links to Swedish industry. Ingvar Kamprad produced furniture for IKEA using East German prison labor for instance.

    Oh my, it does get weirder … I also once read that the Swedish school reforms of the 1970s (turning a world-class school into a postmodern mess) were based on DDR models. My father told me of similar ideological imports at other public institutions. I’ll ask him to refresh my memory next time we meet.

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    This is a strong moral argument for pescetarianism.

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dJF3fY6rSP4/UpYibNasSvI/AAAAAAAAAU8/UG7NdGVbN2w/s1600/trout-fish-anatomy1.jpg

    This is a strong moral argument for pescetarianism.

    All of the “moral” arguments in favor of pescetarianism, vegetarianism, veganism, and other such anti-human dietary doctrines are rooted in liberalism.

    Weakness worship, pathological altruism, squeamishness, excessive empathy, etc.

    There is no acceptable reason whatsoever to be a pescetarian.

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Le based Hitler was vegetarian.

    I'm nowhere near as hardcore and just avoid pork.
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  • @Jaakko Raipala
    The conformism of Swedes is not a similarity with Russians who just don't put such high value on consensus and don't have the high deference to experts and thought leaders that Germanic cultures have. You don't get much ideological conformism in Russia unless you have an NKVD to force it while in Sweden where not disturbing the consensus is the highest cultural value you get extreme conformism even when the people in charge are the least scary "tyrants" that the world has ever seen.

    It is much more entertaining to discuss ideology with Russians since they are more likely to be willing to entertain an unconventional opinion and more likely to have their own unique opinions. The downside of not having such a consensus seeking political culture of course is a tendency towards political chaos and strongmen to decide a political direction in the absence of consensus. If those Swedish social democrats were put in charge of Russia the country would cease to exist in a few years...

    Don’t get me wrong–Swedes and Russians are obviously quite different.

    But Swedish culture is much more collectivist and authoritarian than other Western cultures.

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  • @Swedish Family

    Amazed at the British score, we have a very neocon press and have been bombarded by negative stuff about Russia since Putin became President.
     
    But you do have some conservative voices who moderate the conversation a little. I can't think of a single even moderately pro-Russian voice in Scandinavia, which partly explains our hostility.

    The little support you do find comes from fractions within the nationalist parties and some immigrant groups. Iranians and people from the Balkan are normally pro-Russian, but also some Syrians, Iraqis, and Afghans (very mixed bag here). I also once met -- of all things -- a strongly pro-Putin Somali. While a devout Muslim himself, he had only good things to say about Orthodox Christianity; all other Christians would go to hell (and Obama, especially, would go to hell). He also dreamt of moving to Siberia, which I thought very funny, but also strangely beautiful.

    Peter Oborne, Peter Hitchens, Rod Liddle and Leo McKinstry are all new cold war sceptics. There aren’t really many other actual conservative commentators in the press.

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  • @melanf

    As far as I know, it has never been established those pows died due to deliberate neglect in the sense that the Poles actively wanted them to die (they certainly didn’t just give them a bullet to the back of the head like at Katyn).
     
    For example, on August 24, 1920, 200 prisoners were shot by order of General V. Sikorski (who today is considered a national hero of Poland at the state level). Although there were no single massacres comparable in size to Katyn, the total number of civilians and prisoners killed by poles was large, probably much larger than the number of victims of Katyn.

    Are there any good studies about this (that is ones not written by Polish or Russian nationalists or communists)?

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    • Replies: @melanf

    Are there any good studies about this (that is ones not written by Polish or Russian nationalists or communists)?
     
    About research on the subject of non-Russian and non-Polish authors I do not know. But the fact of the execution to which I pointed out an absolutely undeniable (it is recognized by the Polish side)
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  • @DFH

    Somewhat relative to Katyn, were the thousands of Soviet POWs who died under miserable Polish prison conditions during the Soviet-Polish War
     
    Not comparable at all. The Poles were fighting for their continued national survival, the Soviets at Katyn were deliberately trying to exterminate the Polish upper-class.

    Not comparable at all. The Poles were fighting for their continued national survival

    That is, for” national survival ” Poland needed the killing of prisoners, Jewish pogroms, mass rapes, etc.? If so, then the lands seized in 39 by the Soviet troops were also necessary for “national survival”, and accordingly any crimes were justified/s

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    • Replies: @szopen

    Poland needed the killing of prisoners, Jewish pogroms, mass rapes, etc.
     
    Melanf,

    There is a difference between occasional crimes done by soldiers or officers, which happen in every army; and state policy. Polish state's policy (or POlish army's policy) had not consisted in killing prisoners, Jewish pogroms or mass rapes, even though such might occasionally happen. If you really investigated the PoW issue, you surely know that the poor conditions in PoW camps wereof interest to parliamentary commission, which visited the camps and demanded changes, which then happen - the mortality of PoWs drastically fell down (IIRC the commanders of some camps even were punished).

    In contrast, Katyń (and other similar crimes) was result of state policy.

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  • @German_reader

    Somewhat relative to Katyn, were the thousands of Soviet POWs who died under miserable Polish prison conditions during the Soviet-Polish War.
     
    That doesn't really seem to be comparable. As far as I know, it has never been established those pows died due to deliberate neglect in the sense that the Poles actively wanted them to die (they certainly didn't just give them a bullet to the back of the head like at Katyn). And was Stalin such a humanitarian that he cared much about their fate (to be distinguished from the humiliation he may have felt himself)? Seems very doubtful to me, given how little he cared even about those taken prisoner by the Germans in WW2.

    As far as I know, it has never been established those pows died due to deliberate neglect in the sense that the Poles actively wanted them to die (they certainly didn’t just give them a bullet to the back of the head like at Katyn).

    For example, on August 24, 1920, 200 prisoners were shot by order of General V. Sikorski (who today is considered a national hero of Poland at the state level). Although there were no single massacres comparable in size to Katyn, the total number of civilians and prisoners killed by poles was large, probably much larger than the number of victims of Katyn.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    Are there any good studies about this (that is ones not written by Polish or Russian nationalists or communists)?
    , @szopen
    Well, you forgot to add, that it supposedly was a revenge for death of 200 Polish prisoners murdered by Cossacks (the other version taht it was a revenge for some other murders and rapes by Cossacks)

    the total number of civilians and prisoners killed by poles was large, probably much larger than the number of victims of Katyn.
     

    Most likely not.

    You forgot also that there were also Polish PoWs in Soviet camps in 1919-1921 war, and many of them died there too.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    Autistic side-note: Assuming that intelligence and capacity for suffering are correlated, I do actually think eating dogs (intelligent), eating pigs (similarly intelligent to dogs), and and hunting killer whales (who are very intelligent), is objectively a lot worse than eating cows (dumb) or sheep (very dumb).

    This is a strong moral argument for pescetarianism.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson


    This is a strong moral argument for pescetarianism.
     
    All of the "moral" arguments in favor of pescetarianism, vegetarianism, veganism, and other such anti-human dietary doctrines are rooted in liberalism.

    Weakness worship, pathological altruism, squeamishness, excessive empathy, etc.

    There is no acceptable reason whatsoever to be a pescetarian.
    , @Dmitry
    Kind of out of date. Recent research shows fish are lot more intelligent than previously thought.
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  • @Thorfinnsson


    As well as historical being as rival hegemons, Sweden and Russia - despite very different languages and 20th century history - do also have a lot of cultural similarity. There is differently some similarity of nordic personality, which might potentially appall a patrician-like Swedish view to see themselves in the mirror, or how they would look down a different, less utopian, historical path.
     
    Karlin may be incredulous, but there's a point to this.

    The English journalist Roland Huntford wrote a book on Sweden titled The New Totalitarians in 1971. The basic thesis was that the Social Democrats had successfully established in Sweden a totalitarian state, and the roots of this totalitarianism lay very deep in Swedish history.

    Like Russia, Sweden had no renaissance. One can find in the traditional Swedish bruk (only abolished in the 1820s) and peasant strip farms something analogous to traditional Russian serfdom.

    One interesting observation of his is that he considered Stockholm to have the feeling of an Eastern European city.

    Swedes are collectivists, xenophobes, nationalists, and religious fanatics. The current Sweden Yes! embarrassment is mainly owing to the contemporary religion being liberalism. In the past Swedes were militant protestant fanatics who put Catholics to death instead.

    The conformism of Swedes is not a similarity with Russians who just don’t put such high value on consensus and don’t have the high deference to experts and thought leaders that Germanic cultures have. You don’t get much ideological conformism in Russia unless you have an NKVD to force it while in Sweden where not disturbing the consensus is the highest cultural value you get extreme conformism even when the people in charge are the least scary “tyrants” that the world has ever seen.

    It is much more entertaining to discuss ideology with Russians since they are more likely to be willing to entertain an unconventional opinion and more likely to have their own unique opinions. The downside of not having such a consensus seeking political culture of course is a tendency towards political chaos and strongmen to decide a political direction in the absence of consensus. If those Swedish social democrats were put in charge of Russia the country would cease to exist in a few years…

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Don't get me wrong--Swedes and Russians are obviously quite different.

    But Swedish culture is much more collectivist and authoritarian than other Western cultures.
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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/664647482022866944

    Speaking of which, did you get Rise & Fall and if so, will you review it?

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    • Replies: @Yevardian
    The series has been dumbed-down console trash since the release of Civ 5.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    1. No.

    2. No.

    3. Civilization went to shit after #4, which remains the best in the series along with #2.
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  • @RadicalCenter
    That bit about Swedish utopia has recently become out of date.

    Sweden’s path ends in chaos, poverty, mass violence, and subjugation by Muslims. It will soon be irrelevant what actual Swedes think of Russia, and nobody sensible wants to emulate the Swedes already.

    “Sweden’s path ends in chaos, poverty, mass violence, and subjugation by Muslims.”

    Highly doubtful.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    I’d like to agree with you there, as you know.

    But is there any reason to think that Swedes will suddenly start having a lot more children?

    Any reason to think that the Africans, Arabs, and Muslims residing in Sweden will soon stop having enough children to grow their population (and currently at a far higher TFR than Swedes)?

    If the answer to these questions is “no”, what is the cause for optimism? Even if the Swedes ended all Muslim, Arab, and African immigration next year — which is very unlikely — the damage that has been done is irrevocable on anything like current trends.

    The no-go areas are still growing larger and more numerous across Sweden, with none of them proposed for forcible reclamation by real Swedes.

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  • @Beckow
    There were 3 million members of Communist Party in Poland in the 1980's. All Jews? When 10% of your population joins a party that you claim occupied Poland, I am having some doubts about whether you are telling the whole truth.

    And this weird vignette from 19th century:


    anyone who taught or studied the Polish language was in danger of being sent to Siberia
     
    Really? It is simply not true, schools in Polish language functioned and nobody was forbidding the Polish language (maybe in the German part). Polish aristocrats were very numerous and over-represented in the Russia's elite. That was partially a function of their large numbers and the fact that Russian tsars honoured their status when taking over Poland.

    And those takeovers in 18th century: wasn't there always a large Polish party that asked for Russia, Germany, Austria, Sweden (whomever) to take over the Polish throne? I don't recall the details, but I believe the three partitions had a substantial domestic component, 'schlachta' shopping around for the best deal for themselves and abandoning the common people and Polish identity.

    We all like to blame the evil foreigners for our misfortunes. Some of it is true, but often there are also domestic reasons. In Poland the internal strife has always been an issue. Even today they are ready to tear each other apart.

    > schools in Polish language functioned and nobody was forbidding the Polish language

    That depends on a period. After the January Uprising I do not think there were many Polish language schools out there.

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    • Replies: @Mikhail
    In a number of influential circles, there has been tendency to comparatively exaggerate the cultural/linguistic restrictions of non-Russians in the Russian Empire, when compared to some other empires.

    Per capita wise, I sense that more Poles know Polish than Irish know Gaelic. Polish Catholic churches readily existed in the Russian Empire, with Denikin noting that his Polish mother regularly attended services in that denomination.
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