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    HBD Chick and I talk about how rates of historic inbreeding have had an important impact on the selective pressures acting on the traits of various peoples living today. We have often used Europe and the Middle East as examples of this, because strong regional variations in historic rates of inbreeding exist in those places....
  • @Anonymous
    So how does this Hajnal line bs explains Finland thn?
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  • So how does this Hajnal line bs explains Finland thn?

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  • Apologies for the tabloidy title. This is an otherwise serious post. It is well known that higher rates of cousin marriages - especially the father's brother's daughter (FBD) type that is common in the Arab Muslim world - tends to increase clannishness and depress IQs. It is often discussed in HBD circles. The main focus...
  • […] His interest in both Neoreactionary politics and Futurism and how they compliment each other His thoughts on the Alternative Right, the Alternative Left, and the Radical Center Transhumanism The four political currents in Russia today(social conservatives, neoliberals, communist, and nationalist) Vladimir Putin as a civic nationalist and his economic policies The 5 Types of Russian American Misconception that Americans and Westerners have about Russia The Soviet Parallels of Fishtown’s Middle-Aged White Male Mortality Crisis How automatization will make a basic income necessary The Ethnic Politics of Basic Income National Wealth, and IQ  and how oil and communism explain the exceptions Dysgenic Deutschland The European migrant crisis and how it will be used to justify more wars in the middle east The Syrian conflict and Russia’s role in the region How cousin marriage correlates with support for ISIS against Assad in Syria […]

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  • So, this summer’s family reunion is not the journey to riches I had hoped for?
    You got me luvin’ on Assad, at least Christians are safer with him.
    Hey! That’s my team!!!
    Go Assad.

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  • @Southern Sage
    I am skeptical of the IQ argument for the number of Jewish billionaires and other Jewish "success" stories in American society. It is far more likely that much of this "success" is due to the tremendous advantage a small, self-contained, secretive group has when working together against the interests of the larger group in which it lives and works. Add to this an apparent willingness to almost completely ignore the moral codes of the larger groups and you have a surefire recipe for "success".
    The IQ argument for Jewish success is obviously false. While I do not doubt that on average American Jews have high IQ´s, they are swamped by the number of white, non-Jewish Americans with IQ´s just as high or higher. Jewish success is based on group loyalty which is, unfortunately, often directed against the interests of the general population. For example, if members of the Jewish community (illegally) provide interest free loans to their fellow Jews starting a business and do not give such loans to non-Jews, guess who will be more "successful"? And if, for example, Jewish business owners engaged in large-scale insurance fraud in the case of failing businesses and non-Jews did not out of obedience to the law, what would be the result? Likewise in the professions, if Jews slowly gain a predominant position in, say, medical schools, they may favor Jewish applicants over others. Ditto for the legal profession, Hollywood, the media. IQ, while useful, is not the deciding factor in "success". I might add that non-Jews may take a while to wake up to what is happening. When they do, however, they are likely to be enraged to find out that people they saw as their friends and neighbors had been diddling them for decades, with cold-blooded selfishness. Guess what their reaction is?

    I am skeptical of the IQ argument for the number of Jewish billionaires and other Jewish “success” stories in American society.

    As others have chimed, this is pretty obvious. And it’s curious why it’s not obvious to a wider population.

    Elite university admissions are another area where Jews seem to be flying under the radar as “white” applicants and reinforcing their own numbers while, no surprise, Asians are suppressed under the guise of “diversity”. So there’s obviously a double-standard here.

    The alleged ~120 Ashkenazi IQ is also suspect. Besides anecdotes and Nobel Prize winners, where is the data?

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  • @Southern Sage
    I am skeptical of the IQ argument for the number of Jewish billionaires and other Jewish "success" stories in American society. It is far more likely that much of this "success" is due to the tremendous advantage a small, self-contained, secretive group has when working together against the interests of the larger group in which it lives and works. Add to this an apparent willingness to almost completely ignore the moral codes of the larger groups and you have a surefire recipe for "success".
    The IQ argument for Jewish success is obviously false. While I do not doubt that on average American Jews have high IQ´s, they are swamped by the number of white, non-Jewish Americans with IQ´s just as high or higher. Jewish success is based on group loyalty which is, unfortunately, often directed against the interests of the general population. For example, if members of the Jewish community (illegally) provide interest free loans to their fellow Jews starting a business and do not give such loans to non-Jews, guess who will be more "successful"? And if, for example, Jewish business owners engaged in large-scale insurance fraud in the case of failing businesses and non-Jews did not out of obedience to the law, what would be the result? Likewise in the professions, if Jews slowly gain a predominant position in, say, medical schools, they may favor Jewish applicants over others. Ditto for the legal profession, Hollywood, the media. IQ, while useful, is not the deciding factor in "success". I might add that non-Jews may take a while to wake up to what is happening. When they do, however, they are likely to be enraged to find out that people they saw as their friends and neighbors had been diddling them for decades, with cold-blooded selfishness. Guess what their reaction is?

    Southern Sage, you have pretty much described the “Modus operandi” for the Jewish Business model.It is these same predatory practices that led to the Jews being expelled from so many countries throughout history.

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  • @Deduction
    I think this is unintentionally hilarious.

    Particularly the bit where the guy complains that IS are too extreme, they should just cut thieves' hands off, not kill them.

    Nice white journalists can't even conceive of such a thing. They think that their compatriots are unrepentant beyond the pale barbarians for not believing that Bruce Jenner in a dress is a beautiful, sexy and heroic woman haha.

    The next question is: Who is crazier? The nice white journalists or the fundies from IS? I'm leaning towards the journalists being the loons and in fact that Syrian hand chopper looks like the moderate middle ground!

    At some point as we in the West continue to tumble into multikult madness, there could be a choice between an alien but half-way sane social system like moderate Islam and the multikult, and I, and those like me, who tend to be the types of who know how to fight and get stuff done, will choose the foreign system over the native insanity.

    It is certainly not my overall preference but more and more it looks like we are heading for a binary option. To be honest, the four wife lifestyle is another potent draw, a nice older one to cook, a young sexy one to ****, and two in between!

    You think that sounds good ,but usually you end up with four wives, who can’t cook, are not beautiful, and are loud and annoying as hell!!

    As the antagonists in the Russian classi, Kavkaskaya Plennitsa, sang:

    Если б я был султан, я б имел трех жен

    И тройной красотой был бы окружен,

    Но с другой стороны при таких делах

    Столько бед и забот, ах, спаси аллах!

    Не плохо очень иметь три жены,

    Но очень плохо с другой стороны.

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  • @Kamran
    Anatoly, I would like to see this interview about current sunni attitudes and opinions, collected by Chechen jihadists from somewhere in Aleppo. All-in all, everyone they interviewed is opposed to ISIS, but they are somewhat sympathetic towards jihadists, and almost all want "sharia law."

    Please watch everyone: http://www.chechensinsyria.com/?p=21252

    What do you think?

    I think this is unintentionally hilarious.

    Particularly the bit where the guy complains that IS are too extreme, they should just cut thieves’ hands off, not kill them.

    Nice white journalists can’t even conceive of such a thing. They think that their compatriots are unrepentant beyond the pale barbarians for not believing that Bruce Jenner in a dress is a beautiful, sexy and heroic woman haha.

    The next question is: Who is crazier? The nice white journalists or the fundies from IS? I’m leaning towards the journalists being the loons and in fact that Syrian hand chopper looks like the moderate middle ground!

    At some point as we in the West continue to tumble into multikult madness, there could be a choice between an alien but half-way sane social system like moderate Islam and the multikult, and I, and those like me, who tend to be the types of who know how to fight and get stuff done, will choose the foreign system over the native insanity.

    It is certainly not my overall preference but more and more it looks like we are heading for a binary option. To be honest, the four wife lifestyle is another potent draw, a nice older one to cook, a young sexy one to ****, and two in between!

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    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Kamran
    You think that sounds good ,but usually you end up with four wives, who can't cook, are not beautiful, and are loud and annoying as hell!!

    As the antagonists in the Russian classi, Kavkaskaya Plennitsa, sang:

    Если б я был султан, я б имел трех жен

    И тройной красотой был бы окружен,

    Но с другой стороны при таких делах

    Столько бед и забот, ах, спаси аллах!



    Не плохо очень иметь три жены,

    Но очень плохо с другой стороны.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Kamran
    Yes this is indeed the case. They write literature and sincerely believe the apocalypse is coming and that the armies of god will fight the fight the armies of dajjal in northern syria, and that the only way to bring this about to rally all muslims under the black flag of Muhammed and in preparation for this event extirpate all taghout, mushrik (idolatry), and mortad (apostasy).

    Whenever the BBC calls them the 'so-called' islamic state, I let out a little sigh.

    These guys are literally steeped in Islamic eschatology. Their founder Abu-ayyub al masri, has written several long, eloquent tracts detailing the precise order of the battles that will be fought in Syria and who prophesied them back in which century, etc. etc.


    Although I do suspect a certain percentage are just irreligious violent psychopaths.

    Whenever the BBC calls them the ‘so-called’ islamic state, I let out a little sigh

    That is my reaction exactly.

    As a Brit my sigh goes even deeper, though, as I know that the BBC means well by that phrase as the journalists are trying to avoid offence but they end up being much offensive by being so patronising.

    It also advertises their blind cluelessness.

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  • @Kamran
    The islamic state isn't a homegrown militia. They're a fanatical, euphoric, theologically apocalyptic group. Typical recruits in such groups throughout history are urban and literate (and crazy), but low-class. But there are plenty of Sunni hicks in it as well.

    Islamic State are both, as you say, thick bearded hicks fighting for cousin and clan and euphoric thin bearded contestants fighting to win ‘Terrorist Idol.’

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  • @Stubborn in Germany
    When comparing photographs of Taliban fighters and Islamic state fighters, I am struck by the difference in appearance. The Taliban are in all age groups, they sport thick beards, thick eyebrows, and they look like angry transplants from a former century.

    The IS fighters are almost uniformly young (early twenties), sport only wispy milk beards, and are bright-eyed and cheerful. Your word "euphoric" matches well what I perceive. They are committing the most barbaric cruelties and proudly posting videos of them, yet their features do not appear to be distorted by hatred.

    Yes this is indeed the case. They write literature and sincerely believe the apocalypse is coming and that the armies of god will fight the fight the armies of dajjal in northern syria, and that the only way to bring this about to rally all muslims under the black flag of Muhammed and in preparation for this event extirpate all taghout, mushrik (idolatry), and mortad (apostasy).

    Whenever the BBC calls them the ‘so-called’ islamic state, I let out a little sigh.

    These guys are literally steeped in Islamic eschatology. Their founder Abu-ayyub al masri, has written several long, eloquent tracts detailing the precise order of the battles that will be fought in Syria and who prophesied them back in which century, etc. etc.

    Although I do suspect a certain percentage are just irreligious violent psychopaths.

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    • Replies: @Deduction

    Whenever the BBC calls them the ‘so-called’ islamic state, I let out a little sigh
     
    That is my reaction exactly.

    As a Brit my sigh goes even deeper, though, as I know that the BBC means well by that phrase as the journalists are trying to avoid offence but they end up being much offensive by being so patronising.

    It also advertises their blind cluelessness.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Kamran
    The islamic state isn't a homegrown militia. They're a fanatical, euphoric, theologically apocalyptic group. Typical recruits in such groups throughout history are urban and literate (and crazy), but low-class. But there are plenty of Sunni hicks in it as well.

    When comparing photographs of Taliban fighters and Islamic state fighters, I am struck by the difference in appearance. The Taliban are in all age groups, they sport thick beards, thick eyebrows, and they look like angry transplants from a former century.

    The IS fighters are almost uniformly young (early twenties), sport only wispy milk beards, and are bright-eyed and cheerful. Your word “euphoric” matches well what I perceive. They are committing the most barbaric cruelties and proudly posting videos of them, yet their features do not appear to be distorted by hatred.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kamran
    Yes this is indeed the case. They write literature and sincerely believe the apocalypse is coming and that the armies of god will fight the fight the armies of dajjal in northern syria, and that the only way to bring this about to rally all muslims under the black flag of Muhammed and in preparation for this event extirpate all taghout, mushrik (idolatry), and mortad (apostasy).

    Whenever the BBC calls them the 'so-called' islamic state, I let out a little sigh.

    These guys are literally steeped in Islamic eschatology. Their founder Abu-ayyub al masri, has written several long, eloquent tracts detailing the precise order of the battles that will be fought in Syria and who prophesied them back in which century, etc. etc.


    Although I do suspect a certain percentage are just irreligious violent psychopaths.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @unit472
    Even if true ( and the rural hick versus the urban sophisticate is hardly a novel revelation) it does not absolve the urban elite of governing with more than a 'stick' which seems to have been the Assad family's favorite tool.

    OTOH wouldn't the same dynamic be in play in Iran, i.e., the rural 'hick' population being the backbone of the "Islamic Republic" that has propped up Bashar Assad's regime? It is also the case that much of Islamic States fighting men are not from from rural Syria or Iraq but from the cities of Western Europe, North Africa and even Russia?

    The islamic state isn’t a homegrown militia. They’re a fanatical, euphoric, theologically apocalyptic group. Typical recruits in such groups throughout history are urban and literate (and crazy), but low-class. But there are plenty of Sunni hicks in it as well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Stubborn in Germany
    When comparing photographs of Taliban fighters and Islamic state fighters, I am struck by the difference in appearance. The Taliban are in all age groups, they sport thick beards, thick eyebrows, and they look like angry transplants from a former century.

    The IS fighters are almost uniformly young (early twenties), sport only wispy milk beards, and are bright-eyed and cheerful. Your word "euphoric" matches well what I perceive. They are committing the most barbaric cruelties and proudly posting videos of them, yet their features do not appear to be distorted by hatred.
    , @Deduction
    Islamic State are both, as you say, thick bearded hicks fighting for cousin and clan and euphoric thin bearded contestants fighting to win 'Terrorist Idol.'
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  • @Glossy
    As per 23AndMe I'm 98.3% Ashkenazi. A brother of one of my grandmas married his first cousin. I was told in childhood by my parents that this was common among Jews in the past. I wonder if it's common among the Hasidim today. They've certainly preserved every other bit of tradition that they could. I've read Niall Ferguson's two-volume history of the Rothchilds. They were really, really inbred.

    I think that a lot of the unique features of the northern European mindset and tradition come from the fact that northern Europeans lived on isolated homesteads for several millenia. The climate was too cold to support high population density of farmers.

    The climate in southern Europe and the Middle East could always support a high population density of farmers. Farmers there always lived in villages, not on single-nuclear-family homesteads. Villages had politics. You have to be clannish to win at politics. An inbred family is a more cohesive political team than a non-inbred family. That's probably why my ancestors went in for inbreeding.

    As per 23AndMe I’m 98.3% Ashkenazi. A brother of one of my grandmas married his first cousin.

    Jews in some small rural communities (shtetles) engaged in some cousin marriage due to not enough diverse eligible marriage prospects. But (some) Muslim populations have first cousin generation after generation, they pile on, which makes defects much more likely. I wonder now much cousin marriage goes on in Muslim Indonesia and Malaysia. My guess is much less than among Pakistanis and Arabs, Persians

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  • @Southern Sage
    I am skeptical of the IQ argument for the number of Jewish billionaires and other Jewish "success" stories in American society. It is far more likely that much of this "success" is due to the tremendous advantage a small, self-contained, secretive group has when working together against the interests of the larger group in which it lives and works. Add to this an apparent willingness to almost completely ignore the moral codes of the larger groups and you have a surefire recipe for "success".
    The IQ argument for Jewish success is obviously false. While I do not doubt that on average American Jews have high IQ´s, they are swamped by the number of white, non-Jewish Americans with IQ´s just as high or higher. Jewish success is based on group loyalty which is, unfortunately, often directed against the interests of the general population. For example, if members of the Jewish community (illegally) provide interest free loans to their fellow Jews starting a business and do not give such loans to non-Jews, guess who will be more "successful"? And if, for example, Jewish business owners engaged in large-scale insurance fraud in the case of failing businesses and non-Jews did not out of obedience to the law, what would be the result? Likewise in the professions, if Jews slowly gain a predominant position in, say, medical schools, they may favor Jewish applicants over others. Ditto for the legal profession, Hollywood, the media. IQ, while useful, is not the deciding factor in "success". I might add that non-Jews may take a while to wake up to what is happening. When they do, however, they are likely to be enraged to find out that people they saw as their friends and neighbors had been diddling them for decades, with cold-blooded selfishness. Guess what their reaction is?

    Sage, you’re absolutely right that tribal teamwork is a bigger success factor than simple I.Q. Not only will Jews “favor Jewish applicants over others” (and there’s no “may” about it), they also will often conspire to purge non-Jews in order to bring in one of their tribe, whether or not less qualified than the non-Jew they are purging. (I have reliable first-hand accounts from Federal gov’t agency.)

    The HBD (21st Century eugenicists’) preoccupation with small differences in relative I.Q. is a pathetic and pointless attempt to prop up their egos with “scientific racism”.

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  • Even if true ( and the rural hick versus the urban sophisticate is hardly a novel revelation) it does not absolve the urban elite of governing with more than a ‘stick’ which seems to have been the Assad family’s favorite tool.

    OTOH wouldn’t the same dynamic be in play in Iran, i.e., the rural ‘hick’ population being the backbone of the “Islamic Republic” that has propped up Bashar Assad’s regime? It is also the case that much of Islamic States fighting men are not from from rural Syria or Iraq but from the cities of Western Europe, North Africa and even Russia?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kamran
    The islamic state isn't a homegrown militia. They're a fanatical, euphoric, theologically apocalyptic group. Typical recruits in such groups throughout history are urban and literate (and crazy), but low-class. But there are plenty of Sunni hicks in it as well.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I am skeptical of the IQ argument for the number of Jewish billionaires and other Jewish “success” stories in American society. It is far more likely that much of this “success” is due to the tremendous advantage a small, self-contained, secretive group has when working together against the interests of the larger group in which it lives and works. Add to this an apparent willingness to almost completely ignore the moral codes of the larger groups and you have a surefire recipe for “success”.
    The IQ argument for Jewish success is obviously false. While I do not doubt that on average American Jews have high IQ´s, they are swamped by the number of white, non-Jewish Americans with IQ´s just as high or higher. Jewish success is based on group loyalty which is, unfortunately, often directed against the interests of the general population. For example, if members of the Jewish community (illegally) provide interest free loans to their fellow Jews starting a business and do not give such loans to non-Jews, guess who will be more “successful”? And if, for example, Jewish business owners engaged in large-scale insurance fraud in the case of failing businesses and non-Jews did not out of obedience to the law, what would be the result? Likewise in the professions, if Jews slowly gain a predominant position in, say, medical schools, they may favor Jewish applicants over others. Ditto for the legal profession, Hollywood, the media. IQ, while useful, is not the deciding factor in “success”. I might add that non-Jews may take a while to wake up to what is happening. When they do, however, they are likely to be enraged to find out that people they saw as their friends and neighbors had been diddling them for decades, with cold-blooded selfishness. Guess what their reaction is?

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Sage, you're absolutely right that tribal teamwork is a bigger success factor than simple I.Q. Not only will Jews "favor Jewish applicants over others" (and there's no "may" about it), they also will often conspire to purge non-Jews in order to bring in one of their tribe, whether or not less qualified than the non-Jew they are purging. (I have reliable first-hand accounts from Federal gov't agency.)

    The HBD (21st Century eugenicists') preoccupation with small differences in relative I.Q. is a pathetic and pointless attempt to prop up their egos with "scientific racism".
    , @Mithera
    Southern Sage, you have pretty much described the "Modus operandi" for the Jewish Business model.It is these same predatory practices that led to the Jews being expelled from so many countries throughout history.
    , @bach

    I am skeptical of the IQ argument for the number of Jewish billionaires and other Jewish “success” stories in American society.

     

    As others have chimed, this is pretty obvious. And it's curious why it's not obvious to a wider population.

    Elite university admissions are another area where Jews seem to be flying under the radar as "white" applicants and reinforcing their own numbers while, no surprise, Asians are suppressed under the guise of "diversity". So there's obviously a double-standard here.

    The alleged ~120 Ashkenazi IQ is also suspect. Besides anecdotes and Nobel Prize winners, where is the data?
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  • @iffen
    Israel has done very well in its wars with other states.

    The last war with a non-state foe gave them all they wanted.

    I am skeptical of the idea that Israel wants to destabilize and break up all the ME states.

    Israel did not fare so well in 1973 and 1982. I think you’d have to be living on another planet not to see that Israel wants countries like Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya etc. to be destroyed and become failed states embroiled in endless civil war. The Oded Yinon plan lays it out pretty clearly. Moshe Sharett’s memoirs show that Israel organised the Lebanese Civil War for the same reason. There are many Israeli sources who openly admit this is their strategy.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    This is an interesting theory but I don't think it's ultimately true.

    Israel had exceptionally good relations with the Shah. They also continue to have good relations with Azerbaijan.

    That said I'm sure you're right about the ISIS-specific angle. A united Syrian state, even weak as it might be, is still a far more potent threat than any number of Islamist warlords running about.

    Israel has done very well in its wars with other states.

    The last war with a non-state foe gave them all they wanted.

    I am skeptical of the idea that Israel wants to destabilize and break up all the ME states.

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    • Replies: @Alieu
    Israel did not fare so well in 1973 and 1982. I think you'd have to be living on another planet not to see that Israel wants countries like Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya etc. to be destroyed and become failed states embroiled in endless civil war. The Oded Yinon plan lays it out pretty clearly. Moshe Sharett's memoirs show that Israel organised the Lebanese Civil War for the same reason. There are many Israeli sources who openly admit this is their strategy.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • The relative political/economic position of Sunni/Shia groups was the reverse in in pre invasion Iraq and yet when I glanced at the consanguinity figures and it appears that they follow the same pattern as in Syria. (Highest Sunni, Shia, Kurd, Christian lowest). As Kamram noted above the period of Assad family rule is not representative of Syrian history.

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  • @Anonymous
    I wonder if this is why Israel is so fixated on the Iranian-Shia alliance rather than the Sunnite, jihadi-supporting Gulf states (even to the point of supporting ISIS over secular leader like Assad)? Lower IQed peoples can't be a strategic threat and develop sophisticated weapons.

    This is an interesting theory but I don’t think it’s ultimately true.

    Israel had exceptionally good relations with the Shah. They also continue to have good relations with Azerbaijan.

    That said I’m sure you’re right about the ISIS-specific angle. A united Syrian state, even weak as it might be, is still a far more potent threat than any number of Islamist warlords running about.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Israel has done very well in its wars with other states.

    The last war with a non-state foe gave them all they wanted.

    I am skeptical of the idea that Israel wants to destabilize and break up all the ME states.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I wonder if this is why Israel is so fixated on the Iranian-Shia alliance rather than the Sunnite, jihadi-supporting Gulf states (even to the point of supporting ISIS over secular leader like Assad)? Lower IQed peoples can’t be a strategic threat and develop sophisticated weapons.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    This is an interesting theory but I don't think it's ultimately true.

    Israel had exceptionally good relations with the Shah. They also continue to have good relations with Azerbaijan.

    That said I'm sure you're right about the ISIS-specific angle. A united Syrian state, even weak as it might be, is still a far more potent threat than any number of Islamist warlords running about.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I believe that the custom of marriage to a niece has been common in Judaism in the past. Abraham, for example, probably married his niece. The next two generations married cousins.

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  • @Glossy
    HBD Chick says in that post that western Ashkenazim (mostly German ones) did not engage in cousin marriage, but that eastern Ashkenazim (in Poland and Russia) probably did, although the evidence for the latter is more anecdotal than statistical.

    I would guess that among eastern Ashkenazim inbreeding died with the shtetls. Mass immigration to America and Palestine started in the 1880s. After the revolution there was massive migration to large Soviet cities, in which all of my grandparents participated. What remained of the shtetls after that must have been destroyed by the Germans during the war. The Hasidim try to recreate the shtetl lifestyle. Unfortunately the consang PDF doesn’t have data on them specifically.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    First cousin marriages do not appear to have been prevalent amongst Ashkenazi Jews.

    See detailed history here: https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2015/02/25/historic-mating-patterns-of-ashkenazi-jews/

    How can also look at the prevalence of cousin marriage in Israel by ethnic group in the consang.net database: http://www.consang.net/images/c/cb/Asia.pdf

    Ashkenazi migrants in 1950s = 1.4% (that would make it similar to contemporareous figures for Italy)

    HBD Chick says in that post that western Ashkenazim (mostly German ones) did not engage in cousin marriage, but that eastern Ashkenazim (in Poland and Russia) probably did, although the evidence for the latter is more anecdotal than statistical.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    I would guess that among eastern Ashkenazim inbreeding died with the shtetls. Mass immigration to America and Palestine started in the 1880s. After the revolution there was massive migration to large Soviet cities, in which all of my grandparents participated. What remained of the shtetls after that must have been destroyed by the Germans during the war. The Hasidim try to recreate the shtetl lifestyle. Unfortunately the consang PDF doesn't have data on them specifically.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Glossy
    As per 23AndMe I'm 98.3% Ashkenazi. A brother of one of my grandmas married his first cousin. I was told in childhood by my parents that this was common among Jews in the past. I wonder if it's common among the Hasidim today. They've certainly preserved every other bit of tradition that they could. I've read Niall Ferguson's two-volume history of the Rothchilds. They were really, really inbred.

    I think that a lot of the unique features of the northern European mindset and tradition come from the fact that northern Europeans lived on isolated homesteads for several millenia. The climate was too cold to support high population density of farmers.

    The climate in southern Europe and the Middle East could always support a high population density of farmers. Farmers there always lived in villages, not on single-nuclear-family homesteads. Villages had politics. You have to be clannish to win at politics. An inbred family is a more cohesive political team than a non-inbred family. That's probably why my ancestors went in for inbreeding.

    First cousin marriages do not appear to have been prevalent amongst Ashkenazi Jews.

    See detailed history here: https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2015/02/25/historic-mating-patterns-of-ashkenazi-jews/

    How can also look at the prevalence of cousin marriage in Israel by ethnic group in the consang.net database: http://www.consang.net/images/c/cb/Asia.pdf

    Ashkenazi migrants in 1950s = 1.4% (that would make it similar to contemporareous figures for Italy)

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    • Replies: @Glossy
    HBD Chick says in that post that western Ashkenazim (mostly German ones) did not engage in cousin marriage, but that eastern Ashkenazim (in Poland and Russia) probably did, although the evidence for the latter is more anecdotal than statistical.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “We don’t want ISIS in our country. They did massacres. Islam and Sharia don’t accept those things. They are not Islam and they are not part of us.”

    Granted this was in Aleppo, where the more “moderate” rebels were. Still Islamists nonetheless.

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  • Anatoly, I would like to see this interview about current sunni attitudes and opinions, collected by Chechen jihadists from somewhere in Aleppo. All-in all, everyone they interviewed is opposed to ISIS, but they are somewhat sympathetic towards jihadists, and almost all want “sharia law.”

    Please watch everyone: http://www.chechensinsyria.com/?p=21252

    What do you think?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Deduction
    I think this is unintentionally hilarious.

    Particularly the bit where the guy complains that IS are too extreme, they should just cut thieves' hands off, not kill them.

    Nice white journalists can't even conceive of such a thing. They think that their compatriots are unrepentant beyond the pale barbarians for not believing that Bruce Jenner in a dress is a beautiful, sexy and heroic woman haha.

    The next question is: Who is crazier? The nice white journalists or the fundies from IS? I'm leaning towards the journalists being the loons and in fact that Syrian hand chopper looks like the moderate middle ground!

    At some point as we in the West continue to tumble into multikult madness, there could be a choice between an alien but half-way sane social system like moderate Islam and the multikult, and I, and those like me, who tend to be the types of who know how to fight and get stuff done, will choose the foreign system over the native insanity.

    It is certainly not my overall preference but more and more it looks like we are heading for a binary option. To be honest, the four wife lifestyle is another potent draw, a nice older one to cook, a young sexy one to ****, and two in between!
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  • @Vendetta
    Anecdotes aren't worth much, but I've kept in touch since 2012 or so with a couple of Syrians from Damascus who are ardent supporters of Assad.

    One is a woman who's an agnostic (from an Alawite family), keeps her hair uncovered, and works as an engineer. The other is a man who works as a journalist and is fluent in five languages.

    They're the exact sorts of liberal, secular, modernist Syrians who are allegedly the moderate opposition's demographic.

    Assad's domestic support base online is strongly secular, nationalistic, modernist, and I'd even call a lot of them Islamophobic in a very literal rather than disingenuous sense.

    Street video from Damascus corroborates this to an extent as well. Headscarves are few and far between, women are wearing blue jeans, some of these videos look like they could have been filmed in Greece or Italy but for the language differences.

    The young secular modernist crowd that was involved in the original protests and is continually imagined to be the "mainstream opposition" have either fled the country or rejoined the government loyalists.

    And this is exactly why, objectively, the Assad side is the correct one in this Syrian civil war.

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  • @Glossy
    As per 23AndMe I'm 98.3% Ashkenazi. A brother of one of my grandmas married his first cousin. I was told in childhood by my parents that this was common among Jews in the past. I wonder if it's common among the Hasidim today. They've certainly preserved every other bit of tradition that they could. I've read Niall Ferguson's two-volume history of the Rothchilds. They were really, really inbred.

    I think that a lot of the unique features of the northern European mindset and tradition come from the fact that northern Europeans lived on isolated homesteads for several millenia. The climate was too cold to support high population density of farmers.

    The climate in southern Europe and the Middle East could always support a high population density of farmers. Farmers there always lived in villages, not on single-nuclear-family homesteads. Villages had politics. You have to be clannish to win at politics. An inbred family is a more cohesive political team than a non-inbred family. That's probably why my ancestors went in for inbreeding.

    My little theory of where science and the industrial revolution came from is “apolitical mindset + high population density”. If the apolitical mindset is produced by low population density of farmers, how does it get combined with high population density? Through conquest (ancient Greece and Rome, medieval northern Italy) or through improvements in agricultural techniques (post-Renaissance).

    Non-clannish peoples are good at warfare, so in the past they were sometimes able to capture bits of southern farmland. Over many generations their population density in such places swelled. After a while cities appeared which were filled with the kind of mindset that was molded on isolated homesteads. Athens, Thebes, Miletus, later Florence and Venice. You can always recognize the apolitical, nothern-farmer mindset by its egalitarianism. Elections, popular assemblies, term limits for politicians.

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  • @Maja
    Ashkenazim bang their cousins as well. They even have diseases related to it.
    I guess that led to Zionist state.

    As per 23AndMe I’m 98.3% Ashkenazi. A brother of one of my grandmas married his first cousin. I was told in childhood by my parents that this was common among Jews in the past. I wonder if it’s common among the Hasidim today. They’ve certainly preserved every other bit of tradition that they could. I’ve read Niall Ferguson’s two-volume history of the Rothchilds. They were really, really inbred.

    I think that a lot of the unique features of the northern European mindset and tradition come from the fact that northern Europeans lived on isolated homesteads for several millenia. The climate was too cold to support high population density of farmers.

    The climate in southern Europe and the Middle East could always support a high population density of farmers. Farmers there always lived in villages, not on single-nuclear-family homesteads. Villages had politics. You have to be clannish to win at politics. An inbred family is a more cohesive political team than a non-inbred family. That’s probably why my ancestors went in for inbreeding.

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    • Replies: @Glossy
    My little theory of where science and the industrial revolution came from is "apolitical mindset + high population density". If the apolitical mindset is produced by low population density of farmers, how does it get combined with high population density? Through conquest (ancient Greece and Rome, medieval northern Italy) or through improvements in agricultural techniques (post-Renaissance).

    Non-clannish peoples are good at warfare, so in the past they were sometimes able to capture bits of southern farmland. Over many generations their population density in such places swelled. After a while cities appeared which were filled with the kind of mindset that was molded on isolated homesteads. Athens, Thebes, Miletus, later Florence and Venice. You can always recognize the apolitical, nothern-farmer mindset by its egalitarianism. Elections, popular assemblies, term limits for politicians.

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    First cousin marriages do not appear to have been prevalent amongst Ashkenazi Jews.

    See detailed history here: https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2015/02/25/historic-mating-patterns-of-ashkenazi-jews/

    How can also look at the prevalence of cousin marriage in Israel by ethnic group in the consang.net database: http://www.consang.net/images/c/cb/Asia.pdf

    Ashkenazi migrants in 1950s = 1.4% (that would make it similar to contemporareous figures for Italy)
    , @Clyde

    As per 23AndMe I’m 98.3% Ashkenazi. A brother of one of my grandmas married his first cousin.
     
    Jews in some small rural communities (shtetles) engaged in some cousin marriage due to not enough diverse eligible marriage prospects. But (some) Muslim populations have first cousin generation after generation, they pile on, which makes defects much more likely. I wonder now much cousin marriage goes on in Muslim Indonesia and Malaysia. My guess is much less than among Pakistanis and Arabs, Persians
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  • Hmm….the West has in the past had a history of supporting precisely the types of people in the Middle East who one would think should be their typical foes if the West wasn’t too busy focusing on power plays against the USSR and later Russia.

    The inconsistency of the West in support for Arab Spring revolts (compare Syria and Libya and to some extent Yemen with what happened in Bahrain) only seems to confirm this. One wonders if perhaps the Assads and Gadaffis had declared themselves absolute monarchs, if perhaps the US might have supported them instead ;-)

    Is there any data from Afghanistan in the 1970s which would could be used to do a similar analysis on any correlation between consanguineous marriages and support for Islamist rebels in the 1980s?

    That would be particularly interesting, as it was always just a little puzzling that the US supported rebel groups that wanted to overthrow a government that allowed women to go to school and clothe themselves in western dress.

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  • Here is a map of ancient Phoenicia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phoenicia_map-en.svg

    The southern half of the Alawite coast was Phoenician in antiquity. Phoenicians were the most important, richest mercantile minority in the Mediterranean from about 1200 BC till about 200 BC. Lebanese Christians are probably their most direct descendants. Alawites converted to Islam late. Some considered them crypto-Christians until recently. They’re allied with Christians in this war.

    I find it plausible that they’re related to Levantine Christians, who are to some extent Phoenician in origin.

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  • Ashkenazim bang their cousins as well. They even have diseases related to it.
    I guess that led to Zionist state.

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    • Replies: @Glossy
    As per 23AndMe I'm 98.3% Ashkenazi. A brother of one of my grandmas married his first cousin. I was told in childhood by my parents that this was common among Jews in the past. I wonder if it's common among the Hasidim today. They've certainly preserved every other bit of tradition that they could. I've read Niall Ferguson's two-volume history of the Rothchilds. They were really, really inbred.

    I think that a lot of the unique features of the northern European mindset and tradition come from the fact that northern Europeans lived on isolated homesteads for several millenia. The climate was too cold to support high population density of farmers.

    The climate in southern Europe and the Middle East could always support a high population density of farmers. Farmers there always lived in villages, not on single-nuclear-family homesteads. Villages had politics. You have to be clannish to win at politics. An inbred family is a more cohesive political team than a non-inbred family. That's probably why my ancestors went in for inbreeding.

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  • Anecdotes aren’t worth much, but I’ve kept in touch since 2012 or so with a couple of Syrians from Damascus who are ardent supporters of Assad.

    One is a woman who’s an agnostic (from an Alawite family), keeps her hair uncovered, and works as an engineer. The other is a man who works as a journalist and is fluent in five languages.

    They’re the exact sorts of liberal, secular, modernist Syrians who are allegedly the moderate opposition’s demographic.

    Assad’s domestic support base online is strongly secular, nationalistic, modernist, and I’d even call a lot of them Islamophobic in a very literal rather than disingenuous sense.

    Street video from Damascus corroborates this to an extent as well. Headscarves are few and far between, women are wearing blue jeans, some of these videos look like they could have been filmed in Greece or Italy but for the language differences.

    The young secular modernist crowd that was involved in the original protests and is continually imagined to be the “mainstream opposition” have either fled the country or rejoined the government loyalists.

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    • Replies: @AP
    And this is exactly why, objectively, the Assad side is the correct one in this Syrian civil war.
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  • A couple of quick notes;

    1) within big cities, as in most developing countries, there was mass rural exodus and as a result, you had entire peripheral neighbourhoods in Aleppo and Damascus which burgeoned very recently before the war. The phenomenon especially accelerated with the 2006-2010 droughts. These neighbourhoods essentially map the currently rebel, islamist-held areas of these cities. While nominally urban, their population have kept their rural social mores intact.

    2)The figures for consanguinity describe the population pre-war, that is before the mass exodus it triggered, while the poll you quote post-dates this exodus. The internally displaced persons are 8 millions per the UN (far outweighing the 4 millions refugess abroad). The overwhelming majority of the IDPs of course left for the safety (and sanity) of governmental areas. For example, when the Idlib governorate fell to the Turkish/Western backed islamist Army of conquest this year, 100,000′s of its residents fled to Latakia and other government areas of Syria (out of an already depressed population). Remains only the rotten cream of the crop of islamist brotherhood and salafi locals. The area is now so desolate, by the way, that entire families of Uyghurs (some 3500), Uzbeks and other Caucasians and Central Asians are settling there.

    Which certainly heightens the trend you observe and should increase the correlation.

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    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
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  • Btw, there seems to be a pattern of hated minorities (Shias, Jews), getting the upper hand in the modern world thanks to higher-IQ they developed because of repression wiping out dumber, more trusting members.

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  • Sunnis were the elite in syria in the whole recorded muslim history of Syria, until 1970. Ask Razib, he’s written a lot about this. The alawites were a repressed minority on the coastline. Of course one could argue they never got a chance to shine, not being allowed to take certain civil positions until recently, and with the Sunnis only being an elite in the past thanks to their military might. Being supported by the Ottomans also helps, with the occasional massacre.

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  • HBD Chick and I talk about how rates of historic inbreeding have had an important impact on the selective pressures acting on the traits of various peoples living today. We have often used Europe and the Middle East as examples of this, because strong regional variations in historic rates of inbreeding exist in those places....
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says: • Website

    @Amber Hi, I was very interested in the comments about the Dutch. My granddaughters are half Dutch. Their father is from the Netherlands. We recently had DNA tests done on both of them. These left us wondering if there is really any such thing AS Dutch. When you said they moved around a lot–yeah! From their father they received so many different ethnicities–not one of which read Dutch!

    Our family has been researching ourselves for decades because we’re very diverse and when I married my husband I made it much more diverse. We did my husband’s DNA. He’s from Liao Ning in Manchuria. I just knew being that close to Mongolia and after discovering that our last name came from the Mongol horsemen–Ma meaning horse–that he had to be part Mongol. Also being so close to Korea, I knew he’d have some of that. And I was right! But he was also part Japanese, Native American and European! The last we’d already figured out because an uncle had auburn hair.

    We did our granddaughters because they’re nothing alike, looks, personality, character–although they’re both very nice girls. Turns out that the blond one (don’t know where that came from–genetics is weird) is 29% Asian and the one that actually looks a bit Asian is just 22%.

    Oh, my family (my brother did himself) came out part Japanese on our father’s side and this is just going back 500 years. They say one can come up with even stranger things if one goes back further. My husband has a rather rare haplogroup–D4E3.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @panjoomby
    this is out of my area (& out of my league), but it must matter WHO/WHOM is being inbred - e.g., if we practice the same pattern of inbreeding for centuries on a sub-saharan african pygmy tribe - vs. the that exact same pattern of inbreeding for centuries on say, British Isles types... (ideally we could have identical twins - one a pygmy & one a british isles-er, & nevermind! but the point is - different genetic material is being inbred into each system - so, different inputs (even with the same "catalyzing" inbreeding pattern/formula) may yield different results? (i'm trying not to invoke the old "GIGO" computer trope for inbreeding pygmies:) -- i.e., do you think the relationship between level of inbreeding & whatever dependent variable -- is the same for all groups?
    oddly, many of my liberal "race-is-a-social-construct" friends advocate mixing all races together to achieve a beige standard - presumably that would be the most outbred - therefore their beige "ideal" may harbor the same (or worse) suicidal-to-humans tendency seen in (overly) well-outbred types -- perhaps the beige group would defer to different mammals:)
    thank you for your thought provoking (hard!) work - you are making an old intelligence researcher learn (new tricks:) or at least ask new questions - which is the best trick of all:)

    If everyone was ambiguously brown, the resulting behavior from the thesis wouldn’t be suicidal – the problem is equal treatment towards people who fail to return the favor, which wouldn’t happen in the former case. Though I’m not voicing any opinion on whether this is correct or the way to go.

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  • […] course, much of this info comes from WEIRD countries (i.e., NW European and offshoots). As with much of social science in general, these investigations […]

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  • @Simon
    A lot of this looks questionable, some looks based on bias/prejudice/preconceived ideas. For instance the guestimate map of inbreeding seems to not explain why Scandinavians are known for genetic disorders like Haemochromatosis and Huntington's diseases. I get the feeling research is being cherry picked for articles/data supporting someone's pet theses.

    @simon – “For instance the guestimate map of inbreeding seems to not explain why Scandinavians are known for genetic disorders like Haemochromatosis and Huntington’s diseases. I get the feeling research is being cherry picked for articles/data supporting someone’s pet theses.”

    neither haemochromatosis nor huntington’s have anything to do with close cousin marriages, which, as jayman pointed out, is what we mean by inbreeding in this context. both diseases can, of course, get concentrated in inbred lineages, but the inbreeding does not cause either of them.

    here’s what i’ve got on the history of inbreeding/outbreeding (i.e. cousin marriage or not) in sweden so far. i haven’t gotten around to the rest of scandinavia yet. you might also want to check all my other posts on the history of mating patterns in various other populations (see left-hand column toward the bottom of the page on my blog). you decide whether or not i’ve been cherry-picking:

    - inbreeding in sweden
    - inbreeding in 18th and 19th century sweden
    - runs of homozygosity in the irish population (there’re some data there on the swedes)

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  • @Simon
    A lot of this looks questionable, some looks based on bias/prejudice/preconceived ideas. For instance the guestimate map of inbreeding seems to not explain why Scandinavians are known for genetic disorders like Haemochromatosis and Huntington's diseases. I get the feeling research is being cherry picked for articles/data supporting someone's pet theses.

    Getting this out of the way first:

    For instance the guestimate map of inbreeding seems to not explain why Scandinavians are known for genetic disorders like Haemochromatosis and Huntington’s diseases.

    Have you read Greg Cochran’s and Paul Ewald’s paper on pathogens? They argue that such mutations could occur at such a high frequency to protect against endemic pathogens, which makes the most sense.

    Second, although not made clear in the post (and perhaps in hindsight, it should be), when we say a population is “inbred,” we don’t necessarily mean that the average fellow in this population is more related to one of his compatriots than people in another population. We mean that individuals in this population are more related to their family members than are individuals in a less inbred population. It’s about strong between family genetic barriers, not low overall genetic diversity (which matters little from a natural selection standpoint). This is because the populations listed as more inbred have had histories of marrying within their own extended families, more recently so than those in less inbred societies. The within-family coefficient of relationship are higher in these inbred populations (or at least were in the not to distant past, since many of these formerly inbreeding populations have since switched to marriage outside the family). The selective pressures in these inbred societies were different, hence they retain a different set of behavioral traits.

    Please see the links for historical information on marriage patterns. As said in the post, the guestimate isn’t without basis in the evidence.

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  • A lot of this looks questionable, some looks based on bias/prejudice/preconceived ideas. For instance the guestimate map of inbreeding seems to not explain why Scandinavians are known for genetic disorders like Haemochromatosis and Huntington’s diseases. I get the feeling research is being cherry picked for articles/data supporting someone’s pet theses.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @Simon:

    Getting this out of the way first:


    For instance the guestimate map of inbreeding seems to not explain why Scandinavians are known for genetic disorders like Haemochromatosis and Huntington’s diseases.
     
    Have you read Greg Cochran's and Paul Ewald's paper on pathogens? They argue that such mutations could occur at such a high frequency to protect against endemic pathogens, which makes the most sense.

    Second, although not made clear in the post (and perhaps in hindsight, it should be), when we say a population is "inbred," we don't necessarily mean that the average fellow in this population is more related to one of his compatriots than people in another population. We mean that individuals in this population are more related to their family members than are individuals in a less inbred population. It's about strong between family genetic barriers, not low overall genetic diversity (which matters little from a natural selection standpoint). This is because the populations listed as more inbred have had histories of marrying within their own extended families, more recently so than those in less inbred societies. The within-family coefficient of relationship are higher in these inbred populations (or at least were in the not to distant past, since many of these formerly inbreeding populations have since switched to marriage outside the family). The selective pressures in these inbred societies were different, hence they retain a different set of behavioral traits.

    Please see the links for historical information on marriage patterns. As said in the post, the guestimate isn't without basis in the evidence.

    , @hbd chick
    @simon - "For instance the guestimate map of inbreeding seems to not explain why Scandinavians are known for genetic disorders like Haemochromatosis and Huntington’s diseases. I get the feeling research is being cherry picked for articles/data supporting someone’s pet theses."

    neither haemochromatosis nor huntington's have anything to do with close cousin marriages, which, as jayman pointed out, is what we mean by inbreeding in this context. both diseases can, of course, get concentrated in inbred lineages, but the inbreeding does not cause either of them.

    here's what i've got on the history of inbreeding/outbreeding (i.e. cousin marriage or not) in sweden so far. i haven't gotten around to the rest of scandinavia yet. you might also want to check all my other posts on the history of mating patterns in various other populations (see left-hand column toward the bottom of the page on my blog). you decide whether or not i've been cherry-picking:

    - inbreeding in sweden
    - inbreeding in 18th and 19th century sweden
    - runs of homozygosity in the irish population (there're some data there on the swedes)

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  • […] ¿Es el problema del Islam una cuestión racial? (eng) […]

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  • […] got this map from Jayman. The light areas show outbreeding and the darkest ones show the most […]

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  • […] […]

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  • […] 3. How Inbred are Europeans? Post where I display, graphically, the suspected distribution of fractured inbreeding and clannishness across Europe. Here I index links to hbd* chick‘s work upon which these estimations are based, as well as provide links to key posts summarizing her work. Through the discussion here, the apparent difference between close mating (that is, almost exclusively within historical clans) and slightly less close mating (that occurs across within medium-sized networks in small or isolated nations), differentiating Europeans and Near Easterners into three broad types of people: atomized unclannish reciprocal altruists; clannish kin-altruists; and “in-betweeners,” who display mixes of both sets of traits and are often highly nationalistic. […]

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  • […] How Inbred are Europeans? […]

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  • […] also: How Inbred are Europeans? from […]

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  • Perhaps this is also part of the puzzle in black and white disparities, heterozygous advantage maybe?
    There is evidence that heterozygosity is something that humans actively select for in mates, as well as selecting genetically dissimilar partners to produce more heterozygous offspring.

    http://www.researchgate.net/publication/215555434_MHC-heterozygosity_and_human_facial_attractiveness

    http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/content/15/9/1269.full

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  • […] also realizes that just as not all human populations are interchangeable, not all Europeans are interchangeable. Nor, for that, matter, are all White Americans […]

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  • […] Europeans and their descendants). See An HBD Summary of the Foundations of Modern Civilization, How Inbred are Europeans, and Rural White Liberals – a Key to Understanding the […]

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  • […] Yankeedom, New France, and the Midlands are dominated by groups that today espouse beliefs  n line with what are currently modern liberal ethos (such as universalism, faith in government, education, and egalitarianism), as per the original settlers and the people that subsequently came to live among them. By contrast, the Cavaliers and the Scotch-Irish of the current Dixie nations (and to a certain extent the Far West) espouse views generally in line with modern conservatism – restrictive sexual mores, religious faith, an innate propensity towards children and family, and a distrust/de-emphasis of outsiders to the group. This is partly related to the respective levels of historic of inbreeding in each of these groups (see Tentative Ranking of the Clannishness of the “Founding Fathers” and How Inbred are Europeans?) […]

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  • […] also: How Inbred are Europeans? from […]

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  • […] also the case that there is a limit to the good that outbreeding can do, and that there is a “sweet spot” where outbreeding is balanced with inbreeding that results in the maximal prosperity, health […]

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  • […] An HBD Summary of the Foundations of Modern Civilization How Inbred are Europeans? […]

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  • Alien perspectives can’t hurt. I’m Hispanic and began my journey as an atheistic progressive, gradually shifting rightward until arriving at reactionary Euro-nationalism. Genes seem to assert themselves more with age.

    I don’t think White America’s conservative future will provoke Armageddon. The Cavaliers (and even the Appalachians) are far less likely to hit the red button than some African or Asian despot. Pakistan and Israel having nuclear weapons is already bad enough.

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  • :
    I’ll be honest, I’ve no idea how you’re able to synthesize all these data into posts like these, given your other preoccupations (Don’t know about you, but for me, writing an HBD post is like a class project – do the research, write the paper, cite the sources, etc. Takes a while to do…). Notwithstanding, this is quite an informative post!

    :
    While I don’t have the exact answer re: inbreeding in Haiti, I did write a blog post on the D.R. and Haiti some time ago that may offer some perspective:
    HBD: An Abbreviated History of Quisqueya and the Rise of Today’s Dominicans (and Haitians) :: Concourse Expressions

    Yours is an interesting question; perhaps differences in inbreeding/outbreeding may have some explanatory power re: differences between Dominicans and Haitians (and elsewhere in the Caribbean and Central/South America, areas that I’m either actively researching or will research in due time).

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  • @M.G. Miles
    JayMan, you have a real gift for (among other things) bringing together a treasure trove of pertinent links and maps on a topic into one succint post. My hat is off to you, this post is now my go-to reference on the subject. Outstanding.

    @M.G.:
    Thank you!

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  • @Anthony
    My guesses: Iceland is most inbred because the population is smaller. Even though they mostly don't marry first or second cousins, they do end up marrying third and fourth cousins a lot, because everyone there is related at that level. Haiti is more inbred than the Dominican Republic for a few reasons: Haiti's population is almost entirely African in origin - they've driven out most of the Americans and Europeans; while the Dominican population is a mix of African, European, and American. The Dominican Republic's Catholicism is more orthodox, and thus people are more likely to observe the cousin-marriage ban. The Dominican Republic speaks Spanish, so there is some cross-fertilization with other Spanish-speaking countries (even if most of that happens in New York).

    My guesses: Iceland is most inbred because the population is smaller. Even though they mostly don’t marry first or second cousins, they do end up marrying third and fourth cousins a lot, because everyone there is related at that level.

    Indeed. See a recent comment of mine over at HBD Chick’s.

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  • Iceland must be extremely inbred.

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  • @Staffan
    Yes, now I can see the map now, very nice. I'm beginning to think that you're a geek like hbd chick. Unlike you, I find it hard to wrestle big data like this. But not all inbreeding is the same. While Sweden and Japan may display low levels of cousin marriages, they are isolated and like Amber pointed out, this means that everyone is fairly related after a while. I think of this as grainy inbreeding, meaning small groups of highly related individuals, and smooth inbreeding where everyone is moderately related. Perhaps Slovenia, a bit of a paradox here, can also be a case of smooth inbreeding but of a higher degree than Sweden and Japan. They are not especially intelligent (IQ 95) but have less corruption and violence than most countries, especially for that IQ-level.

    It also occurred to me that violence should be adjusted for social control if we want to establish the characteristics of a people. Many Muslim countries have low murder rates but when people from these countries emigrate to more free countries they become very violent and account for a lot of the murders in their new countries. A beast in a cage is still a beast, to put it politically incorrect.

    But not all inbreeding is the same. While Sweden and Japan may display low levels of cousin marriages, they are isolated and like Amber pointed out, this means that everyone is fairly related after a while. I think of this as grainy inbreeding, meaning small groups of highly related individuals, and smooth inbreeding where everyone is moderately related. Perhaps Slovenia, a bit of a paradox here, can also be a case of smooth inbreeding but of a higher degree than Sweden and Japan. They are not especially intelligent (IQ 95) but have less corruption and violence than most countries, especially for that IQ-level.

    That’s definitely a working thought.

    It also occurred to me that violence should be adjusted for social control if we want to establish the characteristics of a people. Many Muslim countries have low murder rates but when people from these countries emigrate to more free countries they become very violent and account for a lot of the murders in their new countries. A beast in a cage is still a beast, to put it politically incorrect.

    Indeed. Peter Frost described something similar. In short, people in these countries expect their transgressions to be met with violent retribution. When it isn’t, they keep right on offending.

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  • @EvolutionistX
    I would add, as explanation, that if you have small groups of people which move around a lot and occasionally accept new members, the new members can add a great deal of genetic variety. Whereas if you're stuck in one place, even if you're trying to out-breed, sooner or later everyone's your cousin.

    @Amber:

    Whereas if you’re stuck in one place, even if you’re trying to out-breed, sooner or later everyone’s your cousin.

    Indeed. But that may not be so much of a problem. See here.

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  • @EvolutionistX
    Sometimes I wonder if the Japanese just mentally transferred their clan loyalties straight to the state.
    I hear they have civic clubs in Tokyo whose members go around cleaning public toilets.
    Historically, I don't think there was a lot of internal movement in Japan, due to a pretty dictatorial state, which would tend to increase inbreeding, but that same dictatorial state really cut down on violence. And people who didn't transfer their loyalty to the state probably got killed, too. So Japan is really just one big clan.

    @Amber:

    Historically, I don’t think there was a lot of internal movement in Japan, due to a pretty dictatorial state, which would tend to increase inbreeding, but that same dictatorial state really cut down on violence. And people who didn’t transfer their loyalty to the state probably got killed, too. So Japan is really just one big clan.

    Indeed, it would appear that way. How it got that way is not quite clear at this point.

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  • @Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
    Low inbreeding in Iceland?

    Yup.

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  • @Cryocamera
    High inbreeding in Russia and low in Holland?hahahaha
    [JayMan: No personal attacks here, thanks. Last warning]
    Ethnic Russians,a roughly 50-50 genetic mix of finnic and slavonic nations are one of the least inbred nations of Europe.Holland on the other hand has one of the highest percentages.
    Read some history and genetics for a f* sake.

    Ethnic Russians,a roughly 50-50 genetic mix of finnic and slavonic nations are one of the least inbred nations of Europe.Holland on the other hand has one of the highest percentages.
    Read some history and genetics for a f* sake.

    You do see the links in the post, yes? That’s not the conclusion these sources reach.

    If you have some other information, please share it.

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  • JayMan, you have a real gift for (among other things) bringing together a treasure trove of pertinent links and maps on a topic into one succint post. My hat is off to you, this post is now my go-to reference on the subject. Outstanding.

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    @M.G.:
    Thank you!
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  • @helvena
    It would be interesting to look into how inbreed Haiti is and compare that finding to Iceland and to the Dominican Republic espcially given Haiti's history.

    My guesses: Iceland is most inbred because the population is smaller. Even though they mostly don’t marry first or second cousins, they do end up marrying third and fourth cousins a lot, because everyone there is related at that level. Haiti is more inbred than the Dominican Republic for a few reasons: Haiti’s population is almost entirely African in origin – they’ve driven out most of the Americans and Europeans; while the Dominican population is a mix of African, European, and American. The Dominican Republic’s Catholicism is more orthodox, and thus people are more likely to observe the cousin-marriage ban. The Dominican Republic speaks Spanish, so there is some cross-fertilization with other Spanish-speaking countries (even if most of that happens in New York).

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @Anthony:

    My guesses: Iceland is most inbred because the population is smaller. Even though they mostly don’t marry first or second cousins, they do end up marrying third and fourth cousins a lot, because everyone there is related at that level.
     
    Indeed. See a recent comment of mine over at HBD Chick's.
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  • It would be interesting to look into how inbreed Haiti is and compare that finding to Iceland and to the Dominican Republic espcially given Haiti’s history.

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    • Replies: @Anthony
    My guesses: Iceland is most inbred because the population is smaller. Even though they mostly don't marry first or second cousins, they do end up marrying third and fourth cousins a lot, because everyone there is related at that level. Haiti is more inbred than the Dominican Republic for a few reasons: Haiti's population is almost entirely African in origin - they've driven out most of the Americans and Europeans; while the Dominican population is a mix of African, European, and American. The Dominican Republic's Catholicism is more orthodox, and thus people are more likely to observe the cousin-marriage ban. The Dominican Republic speaks Spanish, so there is some cross-fertilization with other Spanish-speaking countries (even if most of that happens in New York).
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  • @Pat Boyle
    Recently John Stossel the Libertarian Fox News anchor had a show in which he debunked certain popular myths. One of these was that it was somehow bad to marry your cousin. Stossel confidently announced that cousin marriage qualms were old fashion and the prejudice against marrying your cousin was a myth. Go ahead he said - marry your cousin - it's alright.

    @Patrick Boyle

    This would be fine advice, if it were appearing on a liberal channel, maybe Colbert or Maddow… Those people could use a little inbreeding here and there. With Stossel on Fox I’m thinking we’ve already got a relatively inbred audience so it’ll only compound the problem. Assuming continued bifurcation of the US population is a problem, which I’m not sure it is. It could be a problem for some, namely those living in the borderland areas (such as myself) where the fighting typically takes place were we to see a balkanization of the US. I’m not convinced that will be happening any time soon, but I do see it as a possible natural outcome in time.

    I’m beginning to wonder if the reason why I don’t identify with liberals or conservatives might be that I am half and half, a mix of more inbred european stock (polish/Irish) with less inbred (English, German). To me both perspectives are foolish in their own ways. Outbred liberals seem to think everyone is the same and we can all live together in harmony if only we’re all taught perfect puritan manners (i.e. parented and schooled correctly to accept everyone for who they are) It never seems to cross their minds that their children are accepting, because the parents are, not because they’re taught to be. On the other hand we’ve got the more inbred folks who are family focused, patriotic, but somehow also hate the government for anything it does that isn’t about defending the borders and teaching other groups who’s boss. This attitude worked great back in the middle ages and it might be good to keep out floods of immigrants but it leaves something to be desired in a world where so many countries have nuclear arsenals.

    On the other hand, being someone in the middle ground doesn’t necessarily give me a correct understanding of the situation. Mine is just one other point of view, though one that feels alien to almost everyone.

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  • Recently John Stossel the Libertarian Fox News anchor had a show in which he debunked certain popular myths. One of these was that it was somehow bad to marry your cousin. Stossel confidently announced that cousin marriage qualms were old fashion and the prejudice against marrying your cousin was a myth. Go ahead he said – marry your cousin – it’s alright.

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    • Replies: @Sisyphean
    @Patrick Boyle

    This would be fine advice, if it were appearing on a liberal channel, maybe Colbert or Maddow... Those people could use a little inbreeding here and there. With Stossel on Fox I'm thinking we've already got a relatively inbred audience so it'll only compound the problem. Assuming continued bifurcation of the US population is a problem, which I'm not sure it is. It could be a problem for some, namely those living in the borderland areas (such as myself) where the fighting typically takes place were we to see a balkanization of the US. I'm not convinced that will be happening any time soon, but I do see it as a possible natural outcome in time.

    I'm beginning to wonder if the reason why I don't identify with liberals or conservatives might be that I am half and half, a mix of more inbred european stock (polish/Irish) with less inbred (English, German). To me both perspectives are foolish in their own ways. Outbred liberals seem to think everyone is the same and we can all live together in harmony if only we're all taught perfect puritan manners (i.e. parented and schooled correctly to accept everyone for who they are) It never seems to cross their minds that their children are accepting, because the parents are, not because they're taught to be. On the other hand we've got the more inbred folks who are family focused, patriotic, but somehow also hate the government for anything it does that isn't about defending the borders and teaching other groups who's boss. This attitude worked great back in the middle ages and it might be good to keep out floods of immigrants but it leaves something to be desired in a world where so many countries have nuclear arsenals.

    On the other hand, being someone in the middle ground doesn't necessarily give me a correct understanding of the situation. Mine is just one other point of view, though one that feels alien to almost everyone.

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  • @Lucky White Male
    Jayman excellent post again

    What are the inbreeding rates for European Jews? Specifically Ashkenazi. This is the real "money question"

    We know arranged marriages between cousins was the norm until at least the late 1800's

    It was common wisdom in the Jewish community that you 'don't marry for love' - you marry to create intelligent, competitive offspring

    Very interesting how the elite media and Hollywood has pushed for years the so-called backwardness of inbreeding. Get you looking the other way. The same thing with "eugenics"

    Keep in mind that Ashkenazi Jews are all descended from European shicksas. I don’t mean that you will find a shicksa in every family tree. I mean that you find nothing but shicksas in every maternal line if you go back enough generations. When did this start? Not sure but I think the European Jewish population was quite small — in the thousands? — in early Medieval times. However, I am no expert.

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  • @Greying Wanderer
    @Cryo
    It's not about the total population. Its about whether or not the total population is sub-divided into thousands of mini populations who marry their own close cousins.

    Precisely! I think you may have hit the nail on the head.

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  • @Staffan
    "The total size of the population must be a factor. If you imagine a population with maximal out-breeding the average level of relatedness of that population at the end of the process will be different for a population of 100,000, or one million or ten million."

    So maybe we should look at islanders. My guess is that they may be inbred but not necessarily clannish. There is of course the obstacle of measures. Swedes score deceptively high on individualism, but in reality there is a politically correct conformism. I'm thinking a better measure of individualism/conformism would be the variation if views, attitudes, way of living etc. I mean, if everyone loves gay people, that's not individualism.

    So maybe we should look at islanders. My guess is that they may be inbred but not necessarily clannish.

    Indeed. I think Iceland falls under this effect. They are inbred because of isolation, but not because they have preferentially mated with cousins. I think a key question is whether the population is merely all closely related, or fractured into distinct clans who are even more closely related to each other than everyone in the population is related. I think that’s a big part of it.

    Swedes score deceptively high on individualism, but in reality there is a politically correct conformism. I’m thinking a better measure of individualism/conformism would be the variation if views, attitudes, way of living etc. I mean, if everyone loves gay people, that’s not individualism.

    I think that type of conformism is an on a separate dimension from individualism vs. clannishness as HBD Chick would describe it. Swedes are individualistic in the sense that they do feel any particularly family loyalty, but at the same time, like the Japanese (lots of similarities between Scandis/Finns and Japanese), they go with the flow of the group. That group so happens to be the entire nation. That would seem to fit into HBD Chick’s commonweal orientation.

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  • @Luke Lea
    Wow, look at the former Yugoslavia on that top map! Is that Ottoman influence, or what?

    Mountains, and presumably a closely related group of people to begin with.

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  • @Luke Lea
    Wow, look at the former Yugoslavia on that top map! Is that Ottoman influence, or what?

    Ottoman influence, Islam in Bosnia and Kosovo, the whole country is mountainous, religious rivalries limit people’s mating pools even within villages, etc.

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  • Wow, look at the former Yugoslavia on that top map! Is that Ottoman influence, or what?

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    • Replies: @Anthony
    Ottoman influence, Islam in Bosnia and Kosovo, the whole country is mountainous, religious rivalries limit people's mating pools even within villages, etc.
    , @JayMan
    Mountains, and presumably a closely related group of people to begin with.
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  • “The total size of the population must be a factor. If you imagine a population with maximal out-breeding the average level of relatedness of that population at the end of the process will be different for a population of 100,000, or one million or ten million.”

    So maybe we should look at islanders. My guess is that they may be inbred but not necessarily clannish. There is of course the obstacle of measures. Swedes score deceptively high on individualism, but in reality there is a politically correct conformism. I’m thinking a better measure of individualism/conformism would be the variation if views, attitudes, way of living etc. I mean, if everyone loves gay people, that’s not individualism.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    So maybe we should look at islanders. My guess is that they may be inbred but not necessarily clannish.
     
    Indeed. I think Iceland falls under this effect. They are inbred because of isolation, but not because they have preferentially mated with cousins. I think a key question is whether the population is merely all closely related, or fractured into distinct clans who are even more closely related to each other than everyone in the population is related. I think that's a big part of it.

    Swedes score deceptively high on individualism, but in reality there is a politically correct conformism. I’m thinking a better measure of individualism/conformism would be the variation if views, attitudes, way of living etc. I mean, if everyone loves gay people, that’s not individualism.
     
    I think that type of conformism is an on a separate dimension from individualism vs. clannishness as HBD Chick would describe it. Swedes are individualistic in the sense that they do feel any particularly family loyalty, but at the same time, like the Japanese (lots of similarities between Scandis/Finns and Japanese), they go with the flow of the group. That group so happens to be the entire nation. That would seem to fit into HBD Chick's commonweal orientation.
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  • […] How Inbred are Europeans? – now that’s my kinda post! (^_^) – from jayman. […]

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  • @Staffan
    Yes, now I can see the map now, very nice. I'm beginning to think that you're a geek like hbd chick. Unlike you, I find it hard to wrestle big data like this. But not all inbreeding is the same. While Sweden and Japan may display low levels of cousin marriages, they are isolated and like Amber pointed out, this means that everyone is fairly related after a while. I think of this as grainy inbreeding, meaning small groups of highly related individuals, and smooth inbreeding where everyone is moderately related. Perhaps Slovenia, a bit of a paradox here, can also be a case of smooth inbreeding but of a higher degree than Sweden and Japan. They are not especially intelligent (IQ 95) but have less corruption and violence than most countries, especially for that IQ-level.

    It also occurred to me that violence should be adjusted for social control if we want to establish the characteristics of a people. Many Muslim countries have low murder rates but when people from these countries emigrate to more free countries they become very violent and account for a lot of the murders in their new countries. A beast in a cage is still a beast, to put it politically incorrect.

    “But not all inbreeding is the same”

    The total size of the population must be a factor. If you imagine a population with maximal out-breeding the average level of relatedness of that population at the end of the process will be different for a population of 100,000, or one million or ten million.

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  • @Cryocamera
    High inbreeding in Russia and low in Holland?hahahaha
    [JayMan: No personal attacks here, thanks. Last warning]
    Ethnic Russians,a roughly 50-50 genetic mix of finnic and slavonic nations are one of the least inbred nations of Europe.Holland on the other hand has one of the highest percentages.
    Read some history and genetics for a f* sake.

    @Cryo
    It’s not about the total population. Its about whether or not the total population is sub-divided into thousands of mini populations who marry their own close cousins.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    Precisely! I think you may have hit the nail on the head.
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  • @Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
    Low inbreeding in Iceland?

    Low rate of marriage between 1st and 2nd cousins.

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  • excellent

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  • @Lucky White Male
    Jayman excellent post again

    What are the inbreeding rates for European Jews? Specifically Ashkenazi. This is the real "money question"

    We know arranged marriages between cousins was the norm until at least the late 1800's

    It was common wisdom in the Jewish community that you 'don't marry for love' - you marry to create intelligent, competitive offspring

    Very interesting how the elite media and Hollywood has pushed for years the so-called backwardness of inbreeding. Get you looking the other way. The same thing with "eugenics"

    Jews seem to think they are inbreeding. “Ashkenazim are a relatively homogeneous group despite their settlement in different European countries for centuries. The high prevalence of some 20 “Ashkenazi diseases” in this group dates from founder effects and bottlenecks in the era after 75 C.E. and between 1100 and 1400 C.E.” I tend to think they are not but this view is purely anecdotal. I suspect there are political and social reasons for Jews to think/be told they are.
    Y. Kleiman, DNA and Tradition (2004); E. Abel, Jewish Genetic Diseases (2001).
    jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0007_0_07175.html

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  • This is an all-round excellent summary you put together here Jayman.

    “However, one incongruity appears to be Italy, and to a lesser extent, Spain and Greece. At least with the former two, a key problem is that we don’t know what the regional breakdown would look like, and as my map makes clear, there should be a sharp regional divergence in historic inbreeding rates across these countries..”

    Looking at inbred ‘nodal’ populations identified by lack of diversity of HLA haplotypes [eg due to founder effects, population bottlenecks or constrictions, etc.]:-

    Italy: Sardinia is VERY inbred [Corsica also].

    Spain: Populations in several areas of Basque country are very inbred [eg Gipuzkoa].

    Also, Ireland is severely lacking in diversity of haplotypes, probably as they are most closely related to an Ice Age refuge population from which Europe was partially repopulated, [albeit with small contributions from Iberia and Western France in the Neolithic and Bronze Age].

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  • @EvolutionistX
    Sometimes I wonder if the Japanese just mentally transferred their clan loyalties straight to the state.
    I hear they have civic clubs in Tokyo whose members go around cleaning public toilets.
    Historically, I don't think there was a lot of internal movement in Japan, due to a pretty dictatorial state, which would tend to increase inbreeding, but that same dictatorial state really cut down on violence. And people who didn't transfer their loyalty to the state probably got killed, too. So Japan is really just one big clan.

    @Amber:

    Quite possibly. The traits we see depend on the fine details of the selective pressures the people were under.

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  • Yes, now I can see the map now, very nice. I’m beginning to think that you’re a geek like hbd chick. Unlike you, I find it hard to wrestle big data like this. But not all inbreeding is the same. While Sweden and Japan may display low levels of cousin marriages, they are isolated and like Amber pointed out, this means that everyone is fairly related after a while. I think of this as grainy inbreeding, meaning small groups of highly related individuals, and smooth inbreeding where everyone is moderately related. Perhaps Slovenia, a bit of a paradox here, can also be a case of smooth inbreeding but of a higher degree than Sweden and Japan. They are not especially intelligent (IQ 95) but have less corruption and violence than most countries, especially for that IQ-level.

    It also occurred to me that violence should be adjusted for social control if we want to establish the characteristics of a people. Many Muslim countries have low murder rates but when people from these countries emigrate to more free countries they become very violent and account for a lot of the murders in their new countries. A beast in a cage is still a beast, to put it politically incorrect.

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    • Replies: @Greying Wanderer
    "But not all inbreeding is the same"

    The total size of the population must be a factor. If you imagine a population with maximal out-breeding the average level of relatedness of that population at the end of the process will be different for a population of 100,000, or one million or ten million.

    , @JayMan
    @Staffan:

    But not all inbreeding is the same. While Sweden and Japan may display low levels of cousin marriages, they are isolated and like Amber pointed out, this means that everyone is fairly related after a while. I think of this as grainy inbreeding, meaning small groups of highly related individuals, and smooth inbreeding where everyone is moderately related. Perhaps Slovenia, a bit of a paradox here, can also be a case of smooth inbreeding but of a higher degree than Sweden and Japan. They are not especially intelligent (IQ 95) but have less corruption and violence than most countries, especially for that IQ-level.
     
    That's definitely a working thought.

    It also occurred to me that violence should be adjusted for social control if we want to establish the characteristics of a people. Many Muslim countries have low murder rates but when people from these countries emigrate to more free countries they become very violent and account for a lot of the murders in their new countries. A beast in a cage is still a beast, to put it politically incorrect.
     
    Indeed. Peter Frost described something similar. In short, people in these countries expect their transgressions to be met with violent retribution. When it isn't, they keep right on offending.
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  • @Cryocamera
    High inbreeding in Russia and low in Holland?hahahaha
    [JayMan: No personal attacks here, thanks. Last warning]
    Ethnic Russians,a roughly 50-50 genetic mix of finnic and slavonic nations are one of the least inbred nations of Europe.Holland on the other hand has one of the highest percentages.
    Read some history and genetics for a f* sake.

    Unlikely. At the very least, the average Dutch person has historically moved around more than the average Russian–the Dutch had colonies in the US, Africa, India, and Indonesia–whereas the average Russian peasant was tied to their land and would have married locally. I doubt the Soviets encouraged migration on the same scales as happened in the rest of Europe during the 1900s, but of course I could be wrong.

    BTW, there’s no good reason to be rude to Jay. He clearly put a lot of effort into this post, and if you want to be helpful and provide good sources for genetic data, I’m sure people would be grateful.

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  • @Lucky White Male
    Jayman excellent post again

    What are the inbreeding rates for European Jews? Specifically Ashkenazi. This is the real "money question"

    We know arranged marriages between cousins was the norm until at least the late 1800's

    It was common wisdom in the Jewish community that you 'don't marry for love' - you marry to create intelligent, competitive offspring

    Very interesting how the elite media and Hollywood has pushed for years the so-called backwardness of inbreeding. Get you looking the other way. The same thing with "eugenics"

    I would add, as explanation, that if you have small groups of people which move around a lot and occasionally accept new members, the new members can add a great deal of genetic variety. Whereas if you’re stuck in one place, even if you’re trying to out-breed, sooner or later everyone’s your cousin.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @Amber:

    Whereas if you’re stuck in one place, even if you’re trying to out-breed, sooner or later everyone’s your cousin.
     
    Indeed. But that may not be so much of a problem. See here.
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  • @Lucky White Male
    Jayman excellent post again

    What are the inbreeding rates for European Jews? Specifically Ashkenazi. This is the real "money question"

    We know arranged marriages between cousins was the norm until at least the late 1800's

    It was common wisdom in the Jewish community that you 'don't marry for love' - you marry to create intelligent, competitive offspring

    Very interesting how the elite media and Hollywood has pushed for years the so-called backwardness of inbreeding. Get you looking the other way. The same thing with "eugenics"

    My personal experience with Jews is that they are not quite as clannish as they claim.

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  • @Staffan
    Nice, can't see the first map though, maybe it's my browser or something.

    I'm beginning to suspect that different kinds of inbreeding create different behaviors. Perhaps the conformism in Sweden is the results of everyone being more or less related rather than small groups being highly related? It just doesn't look like a mild form of clannishness. Slovenia is also similar in its high inbreeding and yet low corruption and high openness. This types of inbreeding may show up as identical on meassures that average entire populations. Like some places in Africa where pygmies live with bantu people in some countries their average height wouldn't tell us much about the actual situation.

    Sometimes I wonder if the Japanese just mentally transferred their clan loyalties straight to the state.
    I hear they have civic clubs in Tokyo whose members go around cleaning public toilets.
    Historically, I don’t think there was a lot of internal movement in Japan, due to a pretty dictatorial state, which would tend to increase inbreeding, but that same dictatorial state really cut down on violence. And people who didn’t transfer their loyalty to the state probably got killed, too. So Japan is really just one big clan.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @Amber:

    Quite possibly. The traits we see depend on the fine details of the selective pressures the people were under.

    , @JayMan
    @Amber:

    Historically, I don’t think there was a lot of internal movement in Japan, due to a pretty dictatorial state, which would tend to increase inbreeding, but that same dictatorial state really cut down on violence. And people who didn’t transfer their loyalty to the state probably got killed, too. So Japan is really just one big clan.
     
    Indeed, it would appear that way. How it got that way is not quite clear at this point.
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  • And one more thing- corruption map?
    If you want to compare this sort of stuff,use pre-USSR maps. Communism is a massive shake to a national integrity and system of values.

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  • High inbreeding in Russia and low in Holland?hahahaha
    [JayMan: No personal attacks here, thanks. Last warning]
    Ethnic Russians,a roughly 50-50 genetic mix of finnic and slavonic nations are one of the least inbred nations of Europe.Holland on the other hand has one of the highest percentages.
    Read some history and genetics for a f* sake.

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    • Replies: @EvolutionistX
    Unlikely. At the very least, the average Dutch person has historically moved around more than the average Russian--the Dutch had colonies in the US, Africa, India, and Indonesia--whereas the average Russian peasant was tied to their land and would have married locally. I doubt the Soviets encouraged migration on the same scales as happened in the rest of Europe during the 1900s, but of course I could be wrong.

    BTW, there's no good reason to be rude to Jay. He clearly put a lot of effort into this post, and if you want to be helpful and provide good sources for genetic data, I'm sure people would be grateful.

    , @Greying Wanderer
    @Cryo
    It's not about the total population. Its about whether or not the total population is sub-divided into thousands of mini populations who marry their own close cousins.
    , @JayMan
    @Cryocamera:

    Ethnic Russians,a roughly 50-50 genetic mix of finnic and slavonic nations are one of the least inbred nations of Europe.Holland on the other hand has one of the highest percentages.
    Read some history and genetics for a f* sake.
     
    You do see the links in the post, yes? That's not the conclusion these sources reach.

    If you have some other information, please share it.

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  • Low inbreeding in Iceland?

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    • Replies: @Greying Wanderer
    Low rate of marriage between 1st and 2nd cousins.
    , @JayMan
    @Dr. Kenneth Noisewater:

    Yup.

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  • @Lucky White Male
    Jayman excellent post again

    What are the inbreeding rates for European Jews? Specifically Ashkenazi. This is the real "money question"

    We know arranged marriages between cousins was the norm until at least the late 1800's

    It was common wisdom in the Jewish community that you 'don't marry for love' - you marry to create intelligent, competitive offspring

    Very interesting how the elite media and Hollywood has pushed for years the so-called backwardness of inbreeding. Get you looking the other way. The same thing with "eugenics"

    :
    Thank you!

    What are the inbreeding rates for European Jews? Specifically Ashkenazi. This is the real “money question”

    Razib Khan has two posts on that:
    Ashkenazi Jews are not inbred – Gene Expression
    Ashkenazi Jews are not inbred – 2 – Gene Expression | DiscoverMagazine.com

    In short, his analysis of the genetic data shows that Ashkenazi Jews are not more inbred than surrounding populations, which might fit with certain behaviors that they exhibit. That said, I suspect that “Eastern” Ashkenazis are more inbred than “Western” Ashkenazis – to the extent that that means anything. Also, see what HBD Chick said… ;)

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  • @panjoomby
    this is out of my area (& out of my league), but it must matter WHO/WHOM is being inbred - e.g., if we practice the same pattern of inbreeding for centuries on a sub-saharan african pygmy tribe - vs. the that exact same pattern of inbreeding for centuries on say, British Isles types... (ideally we could have identical twins - one a pygmy & one a british isles-er, & nevermind! but the point is - different genetic material is being inbred into each system - so, different inputs (even with the same "catalyzing" inbreeding pattern/formula) may yield different results? (i'm trying not to invoke the old "GIGO" computer trope for inbreeding pygmies:) -- i.e., do you think the relationship between level of inbreeding & whatever dependent variable -- is the same for all groups?
    oddly, many of my liberal "race-is-a-social-construct" friends advocate mixing all races together to achieve a beige standard - presumably that would be the most outbred - therefore their beige "ideal" may harbor the same (or worse) suicidal-to-humans tendency seen in (overly) well-outbred types -- perhaps the beige group would defer to different mammals:)
    thank you for your thought provoking (hard!) work - you are making an old intelligence researcher learn (new tricks:) or at least ask new questions - which is the best trick of all:)

    “the point is – different genetic material is being inbred into each system – so, different inputs (even with the same “catalyzing” inbreeding pattern/formula) may yield different results?”

    absolutely! and some of the surrounding, environmental selection pressures may give different results, too. the semai of malaysia avoid marrying anyone closer than a second cousin (i don’t know for how long they’ve been doing that, though) — and they are a very peaceful, nonviolent population — but they didn’t/haven’t invented the western world or, say, liberal democracy (afaik!), since all of that was also dependent upon europe’s medieval agricultural system and manorialism and all of the subsequent, and consequent, economic developments since then.

    it’s definitely complicated!

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  • @Staffan
    Nice, can't see the first map though, maybe it's my browser or something.

    I'm beginning to suspect that different kinds of inbreeding create different behaviors. Perhaps the conformism in Sweden is the results of everyone being more or less related rather than small groups being highly related? It just doesn't look like a mild form of clannishness. Slovenia is also similar in its high inbreeding and yet low corruption and high openness. This types of inbreeding may show up as identical on meassures that average entire populations. Like some places in Africa where pygmies live with bantu people in some countries their average height wouldn't tell us much about the actual situation.

    @staffan – “Perhaps the conformism in Sweden is the results of everyone being more or less related rather than small groups being highly related?”

    the swedes (and other scandinavians) are an interesting case because, although you guys starting outbreeding relatively late (i think) — i.e. after converting to christianity — once you did start outbreeding, you took it very seriously! for instance, once the reformation happened, most of the newly minted protestant nations allowed cousin marriage again (because it isn’t prohibited in the bible), but sweden did NOT. there was a secular law that continued the ban up to the mid-1800s (which must’ve applied at some points also in denmark and/or norway? — my scandinavian history is more than a little fuzzy — can never keep track of when the kalmar and other unions were! (*^_^*) ). i really need to work on compiling the data for scandinavia.

    so, you guys seem to have applied the outbreeding practices very seriously from ca. 1000-1200 onwards. (good for you! maybe.) (^_^)

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