The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New Reply
Current Commenter says:

Leave a Reply -


 Remember My InformationWhy?
 Email Replies to my Comment
Submitted comments become the property of The Unz Review and may be republished elsewhere at the sole discretion of the latter
Commenters to FollowHide Excerpts
By Authors Filter?
Andrei Martyanov Andrew J. Bacevich Andrew Joyce Andrew Napolitano Boyd D. Cathey Brad Griffin C.J. Hopkins Chanda Chisala Eamonn Fingleton Eric Margolis Fred Reed Godfree Roberts Gustavo Arellano Ilana Mercer Israel Shamir James Kirkpatrick James Petras James Thompson Jared Taylor JayMan John Derbyshire John Pilger Jonathan Revusky Kevin MacDonald Linh Dinh Michael Hoffman Michael Hudson Mike Whitney Nathan Cofnas Norman Finkelstein Pat Buchanan Patrick Cockburn Paul Craig Roberts Paul Gottfried Paul Kersey Peter Frost Peter Lee Philip Giraldi Philip Weiss Robert Weissberg Ron Paul Ron Unz Stephen J. Sniegoski The Saker Tom Engelhardt A. Graham Adam Hochschild Aedon Cassiel Ahmet Öncü Alexander Cockburn Alexander Hart Alfred McCoy Alison Rose Levy Alison Weir Anand Gopal Andre Damon Andrew Cockburn Andrew Fraser Andy Kroll Ann Jones Anonymous Anthony DiMaggio Ariel Dorfman Arlie Russell Hochschild Arno Develay Arnold Isaacs Artem Zagorodnov Astra Taylor Austen Layard Aviva Chomsky Ayman Fadel Barbara Ehrenreich Barbara Garson Barbara Myers Barry Lando Belle Chesler Beverly Gologorsky Bill Black Bill Moyers Bob Dreyfuss Bonnie Faulkner Brenton Sanderson Brett Redmayne-Titley Brian Dew Carl Horowitz Catherine Crump Charles Bausman Charles Goodhart Charles Wood Charlotteville Survivor Chase Madar Chris Hedges Chris Roberts Christian Appy Christopher DeGroot Chuck Spinney Coleen Rowley Cooper Sterling Craig Murray Dahr Jamail Dan E. Phillips Dan Sanchez Daniel McAdams Danny Sjursen Dave Kranzler Dave Lindorff David Barsamian David Bromwich David Chibo David Gordon David North David Vine David Walsh David William Pear Dean Baker Dennis Saffran Diana Johnstone Dilip Hiro Dirk Bezemer Ed Warner Edmund Connelly Eduardo Galeano Ellen Cantarow Ellen Packer Ellison Lodge Eric Draitser Eric Zuesse Erik Edstrom Erika Eichelberger Erin L. Thompson Eugene Girin F. Roger Devlin Franklin Lamb Frida Berrigan Friedrich Zauner Gabriel Black Gary Corseri Gary North Gary Younge Gene Tuttle George Albert George Bogdanich George Szamuely Georgianne Nienaber Glenn Greenwald Greg Grandin Greg Johnson Gregoire Chamayou Gregory Foster Gregory Hood Gregory Wilpert Guest Admin Hannah Appel Hans-Hermann Hoppe Harri Honkanen Henry Cockburn Hina Shamsi Howard Zinn Hubert Collins Hugh McInnish Ira Chernus Jack Kerwick Jack Rasmus Jack Ravenwood Jack Sen James Bovard James Carroll James Fulford Jane Lazarre Jared S. Baumeister Jason C. Ditz Jason Kessler Jay Stanley Jeff J. Brown Jeffrey Blankfort Jeffrey St. Clair Jen Marlowe Jeremiah Goulka Jeremy Cooper Jesse Mossman Jim Daniel Jim Kavanagh JoAnn Wypijewski Joe Lauria Johannes Wahlstrom John W. Dower John Feffer John Fund John Harrison Sims John Reid John Stauber John Taylor John V. Walsh John Williams Jon Else Jonathan Alan King Jonathan Anomaly Jonathan Rooper Jonathan Schell Joseph Kishore Juan Cole Judith Coburn K.R. Bolton Karel Van Wolferen Karen Greenberg Kelley Vlahos Kersasp D. Shekhdar Kevin Barrett Kevin Zeese Kshama Sawant Lance Welton Laura Gottesdiener Laura Poitras Laurent Guyénot Lawrence G. Proulx Leo Hohmann Linda Preston Logical Meme Lorraine Barlett M.G. Miles Mac Deford Maidhc O Cathail Malcolm Unwell Marcus Alethia Marcus Cicero Margaret Flowers Mark Danner Mark Engler Mark Perry Matt Parrott Mattea Kramer Matthew Harwood Matthew Richer Matthew Stevenson Max Blumenthal Max Denken Max North Maya Schenwar Michael Gould-Wartofsky Michael Schwartz Michael T. Klare Murray Polner Nan Levinson Naomi Oreskes Nate Terani Ned Stark Nelson Rosit Nicholas Stix Nick Kollerstrom Nick Turse Noam Chomsky Nomi Prins Patrick Cleburne Patrick Cloutier Paul Cochrane Paul Engler Paul Nachman Paul Nehlen Pepe Escobar Peter Brimelow Peter Gemma Peter Van Buren Pierre M. Sprey Pratap Chatterjee Publius Decius Mus Rajan Menon Ralph Nader Ramin Mazaheri Ramziya Zaripova Randy Shields Ray McGovern Razib Khan Rebecca Gordon Rebecca Solnit Richard Krushnic Richard Silverstein Rick Shenkman Rita Rozhkova Robert Baxter Robert Bonomo Robert Fisk Robert Lipsyte Robert Parry Robert Roth Robert S. Griffin Robert Scheer Robert Trivers Robin Eastman Abaya Roger Dooghy Ronald N. Neff Rory Fanning Sam Francis Sam Husseini Sayed Hasan Sharmini Peries Sheldon Richman Spencer Davenport Spencer Quinn Stefan Karganovic Steffen A. Woll Stephanie Savell Stephen J. Rossi Steve Fraser Steven Yates Sydney Schanberg Tanya Golash-Boza Ted Rall Theodore A. Postol Thierry Meyssan Thomas Frank Thomas O. Meehan Tim Shorrock Tim Weiner Tobias Langdon Todd E. Pierce Todd Gitlin Todd Miller Tom Piatak Tom Suarez Tom Sunic Tracy Rosenberg Virginia Dare Vladimir Brovkin Vox Day W. Patrick Lang Walter Block William Binney William DeBuys William Hartung William J. Astore Winslow T. Wheeler Ximena Ortiz Yan Shen
Nothing found
By Topics/Categories Filter?
2016 Election 9/11 Academia AIPAC Alt Right American Media American Military American Pravda Anti-Semitism Benjamin Netanyahu Blacks Britain China Conservative Movement Conspiracy Theories Deep State Donald Trump Economics Foreign Policy Hillary Clinton History Ideology Immigration IQ Iran ISIS Islam Israel Israel Lobby Israel/Palestine Jews Middle East Neocons Political Correctness Race/IQ Race/Ethnicity Republicans Russia Science Syria Terrorism Turkey Ukraine Vladimir Putin World War II 1971 War 2008 Election 2012 Election 2014 Election 23andMe 70th Anniversary Parade 75-0-25 Or Something A Farewell To Alms A. J. West A Troublesome Inheritance Aarab Barghouti Abc News Abdelhamid Abaaoud Abe Abe Foxman Abigail Marsh Abortion Abraham Lincoln Abu Ghraib Abu Zubaydah Academy Awards Acheivement Gap Acid Attacks Adam Schiff Addiction Adoptees Adoption Adoption Twins ADRA2b AEI Affective Empathy Affirmative Action Affordable Family Formation Afghanistan Africa African Americans African Genetics Africans Afrikaner Afrocentricism Agriculture Aha AIDS Ain't Nobody Got Time For That. Ainu Aircraft Carriers AirSea Battle Al Jazeera Al-Qaeda Alan Dershowitz Alan Macfarlane Albania Alberto Del Rosario Albion's Seed Alcohol Alcoholism Alexander Hamilton Alexandre Skirda Alexis De Tocqueville Algeria All Human Behavioral Traits Are Heritable All Traits Are Heritable Alpha Centauri Alpha Males Alt Left Altruism Amazon.com America The Beautiful American Atheists American Debt American Exceptionalism American Flag American Jews American Left American Legion American Nations American Nations American Prisons American Renaissance Americana Amerindians Amish Amish Quotient Amnesty Amnesty International Amoral Familialism Amy Chua Amygdala An Hbd Liberal Anaconda Anatoly Karlin Ancestry Ancient DNA Ancient Genetics Ancient Jews Ancient Near East Anders Breivik Andrei Nekrasov Andrew Jackson Androids Angela Stent Angelina Jolie Anglo-Saxons Ann Coulter Anne Buchanan Anne Heche Annual Country Reports On Terrorism Anthropology Antibiotics Antifa Antiquity Antiracism Antisocial Behavior Antiwar Movement Antonin Scalia Antonio Trillanes IV Anywhere But Here Apartheid Appalachia Appalachians Arab Christianity Arab Spring Arabs Archaic DNA Archaic Humans Arctic Humans Arctic Resources Argentina Argentina Default Armenians Army-McCarthy Hearings Arnon Milchan Art Arthur Jensen Artificial Intelligence As-Safir Ash Carter Ashkenazi Intelligence Ashkenazi Jews Ashraf Ghani Asia Asian Americans Asian Quotas Asians ASPM Assassinations Assimilation Assortative Mating Atheism Atlantic Council Attractiveness Attractiveness Australia Australian Aboriginals Austria Austro-Hungarian Empire Austronesians Autism Automation Avi Tuschman Avigdor Lieberman Ayodhhya Babri Masjid Baby Boom Baby Gap Baby Girl Jay Backlash Bacterial Vaginosis Bad Science Bahrain Balanced Polymorphism Balkans Baltimore Riots Bangladesh Banking Banking Industry Banking System Banks Barack H. Obama Barack Obama Barbara Comstock Bariatric Surgery Baseball Bashar Al-Assad Baumeister BDA BDS Movement Beauty Beauty Standards Behavior Genetics Behavioral Genetics Behaviorism Beijing Belgrade Embassy Bombing Believeing In Observational Studies Is Nuts Ben Cardin Ben Carson Benghazi Benjamin Cardin Berlin Wall Bernard Henri-Levy Bernard Lewis Bernie Madoff Bernie Sanders Bernies Sanders Beta Males BICOM Big Five Bilingual Education Bill 59 Bill Clinton Bill Kristol Bill Maher Billionaires Billy Graham Birds Of A Feather Birth Order Birth Rate Bisexuality Bisexuals BJP Black Americans Black Crime Black History Black Lives Matter Black Metal Black Muslims Black Panthers Black Women Attractiveness Blackface Blade Runner Blogging Blond Hair Blue Eyes Bmi Boasian Anthropology Boderlanders Boeing Boers Boiling Off Boko Haram Bolshevik Revolution Books Border Reivers Borderlander Borderlanders Boris Johnson Bosnia Boston Bomb Boston Marathon Bombing Bowe Bergdahl Boycott Divest And Sanction Boycott Divestment And Sanctions Brain Brain Scans Brain Size Brain Structure Brazil Breaking Down The Bullshit Breeder's Equation Bret Stephens Brexit Brian Boutwell Brian Resnick BRICs Brighter Brains Brighton Broken Hill Brown Eyes Bruce Jenner Bruce Lahn brussels Bryan Caplan BS Bundy Family Burakumin Burma Bush Administration C-section Cagots Caitlyn Jenner California Cambodia Cameron Russell Campaign Finance Campaign For Liberty Campus Rape Canada Canada Day Canadian Flag Canadians Cancer Candida Albicans Cannabis Capital Punishment Capitalism Captain Chicken Cardiovascular Disease Care Package Carl Sagan Carly Fiorina Caroline Glick Carroll Quigley Carry Me Back To Ole Virginny Carter Page Castes Catalonia Catholic Church Catholicism Catholics Causation Cavaliers CCTV Censorship Central Asia Chanda Chisala Charles Darwin Charles Krauthammer Charles Murray Charles Schumer Charleston Shooting Charlie Hebdo Charlie Rose Charlottesville Chechens Chechnya Cherlie Hebdo Child Abuse Child Labor Children Chimerism China/America China Stock Market Meltdown China Vietnam Chinese Chinese Communist Party Chinese Evolution Chinese Exclusion Act Chlamydia Chris Gown Chris Rock Chris Stringer Christian Fundamentalism Christianity Christmas Christopher Steele Chuck Chuck Hagel Chuck Schumer CIA Cinema Civil Liberties Civil Rights Civil War Civilian Deaths CJIA Clannishness Clans Clark-unz Selection Classical Economics Classical History Claude-Lévi-Strauss Climate Climate Change Clinton Global Initiative Cliodynamics Cloudburst Flight Clovis Cochran And Harpending Coefficient Of Relationship Cognitive Empathy Cognitive Psychology Cohorts Cold War Colin Kaepernick Colin Woodard Colombia Colonialism Colonists Coming Apart Comments Communism Confederacy Confederate Flag Conflict Of Interest Congress Consanguinity Conscientiousness Consequences Conservatism Conservatives Constitution Constitutional Theory Consumer Debt Cornel West Corporal Punishment Correlation Is Still Not Causation Corruption Corruption Perception Index Costa Concordia Cousin Marriage Cover Story CPEC Craniometry CRIF Crime Crimea Criminality Crowded Crowding Cruise Missiles Cuba Cuban Missile Crisis Cuckold Envy Cuckservative Cultural Evolution Cultural Marxism Cut The Sh*t Guys DACA Dads Vs Cads Daily Mail Dalai Lama Dallas Shooting Dalliard Dalton Trumbo Damascus Bombing Dan Freedman Dana Milbank Daniel Callahan Danish Daren Acemoglu Dark Ages Dark Tetrad Dark Triad Darwinism Data Posts David Brooks David Friedman David Frum David Goldenberg David Hackett Fischer David Ignatius David Katz David Kramer David Lane David Petraeus Davide Piffer Davos Death Death Penalty Debbie Wasserman-Schultz Debt Declaration Of Universal Human Rights Deep Sleep Deep South Democracy Democratic Party Democrats Demographic Transition Demographics Demography Denisovans Denmark Dennis Ross Depression Deprivation Deregulation Derek Harvey Desired Family Size Detroit Development Developmental Noise Developmental Stability Diabetes Diagnostic And Statistical Manual Of Mental Disorders Dialects Dick Cheney Die Nibelungen Dienekes Diet Different Peoples Is Different Dinesh D'Souza Dirty Bomb Discrimination Discrimination Paradigm Disney Dissent Diversity Dixie Django Unchained Do You Really Want To Know? Doing My Part Doll Tests Dollar Domestic Terrorism Dominique Strauss-Kahn Dopamine Douglas MacArthur Dr James Thompson Drd4 Dreams From My Father Dresden Drew Barrymore Dreyfus Affair Drinking Drone War Drones Drug Cartels Drugs Dry Counties DSM Dunning-kruger Effect Dusk In Autumn Dustin Hoffman Duterte Dylan Roof Dylann Roof Dysgenic E.O. 9066 E. O. Wilson Eagleman East Asia East Asians Eastern Europe Eastern Europeans Ebola Economic Development Economic Sanctions Economy Ed Miller Education Edward Price Edward Snowden EEA Egypt Eisenhower El Salvador Elections Electric Cars Elie Wiesel Eliot Cohen Eliot Engel Elites Ellen Walker Elliot Abrams Elliot Rodger Elliott Abrams Elon Musk Emigration Emil Kirkegaard Emmanuel Macron Emmanuel Todd Empathy England English Civil War Enhanced Interrogations Enoch Powell Entrepreneurship Environment Environmental Estrogens Environmentalism Erdogan Eric Cantor Espionage Estrogen Ethiopia Ethnic Genetic Interests Ethnic Nepotism Ethnicity EU Eugenic Eugenics Eurasia Europe European Right European Union Europeans Eurozone Everything Evil Evolution Evolutionary Biology Evolutionary Psychology Exercise Extraversion Extreterrestrials Eye Color Eyes Ezra Cohen-Watnick Face Recognition Face Shape Faces Facts Fake News fallout Family Studies Far West Farmers Farming Fascism Fat Head Fat Shaming Father Absence FBI Federal Reserve Female Deference Female Homosexuality Female Sexual Response Feminism Feminists Ferguson Shooting Fertility Fertility Fertility Rates Fethullah Gulen Fetish Feuds Fields Medals FIFA Fifty Shades Of Grey Film Finance Financial Bailout Financial Bubbles Financial Debt Financial Sector Financial Times Finland First Amendment First Law First World War FISA Fitness Flags Flight From White Fluctuating Asymmetry Flynn Effect Food Football For Profit Schools Foreign Service Fourth Of July Fracking Fragrances France Francesco Schettino Frank Salter Frankfurt School Frantz Fanon Franz Boas Fred Hiatt Fred Reed Freddie Gray Frederic Hof Free Speech Free Trade Free Will Freedom Of Navigation Freedom Of Speech French Canadians French National Front French Paradox Friendly & Conventional Front National Frost-harpending Selection Fulford Funny G G Spot Gaddafi Gallipoli Game Gardnerella Vaginalis Gary Taubes Gay Germ Gay Marriage Gays/Lesbians Gaza Gaza Flotilla Gcta Gender Gender Gender And Sexuality Gender Confusion Gender Equality Gender Identity Disorder Gender Reassignment Gene-Culture Coevolution Gene-environment Correlation General Intelligence General Social Survey General Theory Of The West Genes Genes: They Matter Bitches Genetic Diversity Genetic Divides Genetic Engineering Genetic Load Genetic Pacification Genetics Genetics Of Height Genocide Genomics Geography Geopolitics George Bush George Clooney George Patton George Romero George Soros George Tenet George W. Bush George Wallace Germ Theory German Catholics Germans Germany Get It Right Get Real Ghouta Gilgit Baltistan Gina Haspel Glenn Beck Glenn Greenwald Global Terrorism Index Global Warming Globalism Globalization God Delusion Goetsu Going Too Far Gold Gold Warriors Goldman Sachs Good Advice Google Gordon Gallup Goths Government Debt Government Incompetence Government Spending Government Surveillance Great Depression Great Leap Forward Great Recession Greater Appalachia Greece Greeks Greg Clark Greg Cochran Gregory B Christainsen Gregory Clark Gregory Cochran Gregory House GRF Grooming Group Intelligence Group Selection Grumpy Cat GSS Guangzhou Guantanamo Guardian Guilt Culture Gun Control Guns Gynephilia Gypsies H-1B H Bomb H.R. McMaster H1-B Visas Haim Saban Hair Color Hair Lengthening Haiti Hajnal Line Hamas Hamilton: An American Musical Hamilton's Rule Happiness Happy Turkey Day ... Unless You're The Turkey Harriet Tubman Harry Jaffa Harvard Harvey Weinstein Hasbara Hassidim Hate Crimes Hate Speech Hatemi Havelock Ellis Haymarket Affair Hbd Hbd Chick HBD Denial Hbd Fallout Hbd Readers Head Size Health And Medicine Health Care Healthcare Heart Disease Heart Health Heart Of Asia Conference Heartiste Heather Norton Height Helmuth Nyborg Hemoglobin Henri De Man Henry Harpending Henry Kissinger Herbert John Fleure Heredity Heritability Hexaco Hezbollah High Iq Fertility Hip Hop Hiroshima Hispanic Crime Hispanic Paradox Hispanics Historical Genetics Hitler HKND Hollywood Holocaust Homicide Homicide Rate Homo Altaiensis Homophobia Homosexuality Honesty-humility House Intelligence Committee House M.d. House Md House Of Cards Housing Huey Long Huey Newton Hugo Chavez Human Biodiversity Human Evolution Human Genetics Human Genomics Human Nature Human Rights Human Varieties Humor Hungary Hunter-Gatherers Hunting Hurricane Hurricane Harvey I.F. Stone I Kissed A Girl And I Liked It I Love Italians I.Q. Genomics Ian Deary Ibd Ibo Ice T Iceland I'd Like To Think It's Obvious I Know What I'm Talking About Ideology And Worldview Idiocracy Igbo Ignorance Ilana Mercer Illegal Immigration IMF immigrants Immigration Imperial Presidency Imperialism Imran Awan In The Electric Mist Inbreeding Income Independence Day India Indians Individualism Inequality Infection Theory Infidelity Intelligence Internet Internet Research Agency Interracial Marriage Inuit Ioannidis Ioannis Metaxas Iosif Lazaridis Iq Iq And Wealth Iran Nuclear Agreement Iran Nuclear Program Iran Sanctions Iranian Nuclear Program Iraq Iraq War Ireland Irish ISIS. Terrorism Islamic Jihad Islamophobia Isolationism Israel Defense Force Israeli Occupation Israeli Settlements Israeli Spying Italianthro Italy It's Determinism - Genetics Is Just A Part It's Not Nature And Nurture Ivanka Ivy League Iwo Eleru J. Edgar Hoover Jack Keane Jake Tapper JAM-GC Jamaica James Clapper James Comey James Fanell James Mattis James Wooley Jamie Foxx Jane Harman Jane Mayer Janet Yellen Japan Japanese Jared Diamond Jared Kushner Jared Taylor Jason Malloy JASTA Jayman Jr. Jayman's Wife Jeff Bezos Jennifer Rubin Jensen Jeremy Corbyn Jerrold Nadler Jerry Seinfeld Jesse Bering Jesuits Jewish History JFK Assassination Jill Stein Jim Crow Joe Cirincione Joe Lieberman John Allen John B. Watson John Boehner John Bolton John Brennan John Derbyshire John Durant John F. Kennedy John Hawks John Hoffecker John Kasich John Kerry John Ladue John McCain John McLaughlin John McWhorter John Mearsheimer John Tooby Joke Posts Jonathan Freedland Jonathan Pollard Joseph Lieberman Joseph McCarthy Judaism Judicial System Judith Harris Julian Assange Jute K.d. Lang Kagans Kanazawa Kashmir Katibat Al-Battar Al-Libi Katy Perry Kay Hymowitz Keith Ellison Ken Livingstone Kenneth Marcus Kennewick Man Kevin MacDonald Kevin McCarthy Kevin Mitchell Kevin Williamson KGL-9268 Khazars Kim Jong Un Kimberly Noble Kin Altruism Kin Selection Kink Kinship Kissing Kiwis Kkk Knesset Know-nothings Korea Korean War Kosovo Ku Klux Klan Kurds Kurt Campbell Labor Day Lactose Lady Gaga Language Larkana Conspiracy Larry Summers Larung Gar Las Vegas Massacre Latin America Latinos Latitude Latvia Law Law Of War Manual Laws Of Behavioral Genetics Lead Poisoning Lebanon Leda Cosmides Lee Kuan Yew Left Coast Left/Right Lenin Leo Strauss Lesbians LGBT Liberal Creationism Liberalism Liberals Libertarianism Libertarians Libya life-expectancy Life In Space Life Liberty And The Pursuit Of Happyness Lifestyle Light Skin Preference Lindsay Graham Lindsey Graham Literacy Litvinenko Lloyd Blankfein Locus Of Control Logan's Run Lombok Strait Long Ass Posts Longevity Look AHEAD Looting Lorde Love Love Dolls Lover Boys Low-carb Low-fat Low Wages LRSO Lutherans Lyndon Johnson M Factor M.g. MacArthur Awards Machiavellianism Madeleine Albright Mahmoud Abbas Maine Malacca Strait Malaysian Airlines MH17 Male Homosexuality Mamasapano Mangan Manor Manorialism Manosphere Manufacturing Mao-a Mao Zedong Maoism Maori Map Posts maps Marc Faber Marco Rubio Marijuana Marine Le Pen Mark Carney Mark Steyn Mark Warner Market Economy Marriage Martin Luther King Marwan Marwan Barghouti Marxism Mary White Ovington Masha Gessen Mass Shootings Massacre In Nice Mate Choice Mate Value Math Mathematics Maulana Bhashani Max Blumenthal Max Boot Max Brooks Mayans McCain/POW Mearsheimer-Walt Measurement Error Mega-Aggressions Mega-anlysis Megan Fox Megyn Kelly Melanin Memorial Day Mental Health Mental Illness Mental Traits Meritocracy Merkel Mesolithic Meta-analysis Meth Mexican-American War Mexico Michael Anton Michael Bloomberg Michael Flynn Michael Hudson Michael Jackson Michael Lewis Michael Morell Michael Pompeo Michael Weiss Michael Woodley Michele Bachmann Michelle Bachmann Michelle Obama Microaggressions Microcephalin Microsoft Middle Ages Mideastwire Migration Mike Huckabee Mike Pence Mike Pompeo Mike Signer Mikhail Khodorkovsky Militarized Police Military Military Pay Military Spending Milner Group Mindanao Minimum Wage Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study Minorities Minstrels Mirror Neurons Miscellaneous Misdreavus Missile Defense Mitt Romney Mixed-Race Modern Humans Mohammed Bin Salman Moldova Monogamy Moral Absolutism Moral Universalism Morality Mormons Moro Mortality Mossad Mountains Movies Moxie Mrs. Jayman MTDNA Muammar Gaddafi Multiculturalism Multiregional Model Music Muslim Muslim Ban Muslims Mutual Assured Destruction My Lai My Old Kentucky Home Myanmar Mysticism Nagasaki Nancy Segal Narendra Modi Nascar National Debt National Differences National Review National Security State National Security Strategy National Wealth Nationalism Native Americans NATO Natural Selection Nature Vs. Nurture Navy Yard Shooting Naz Shah Nazi Nazis Nazism Nbc News Nbc Nightly News Neanderthals NED Neo-Nazis Neoconservatism Neoconservatives Neoliberalism Neolithic Netherlands Neuropolitics Neuroticism Never Forget The Genetic Confound New Addition New Atheists New Cold War New England Patriots New France New French New Netherland New Qing History New Rules New Silk Road New World Order New York City New York Times Newfoundland Newt Gingrich NFL Nicaragua Canal Nicholas Sarkozy Nicholas Wade Nigeria Nightly News Nikki Haley No Free Will Nobel Prize Nobel Prized Nobosuke Kishi Nordics North Africa North Korea Northern Ireland Northwest Europe Norway NSA NSA Surveillance Nuclear Proliferation Nuclear War Nuclear Weapons Null Result Nurture Nurture Assumption Nutrition Nuts NYPD O Mio Babbino Caro Obama Obamacare Obesity Obscured American Occam's Razor Occupy Occupy Wall Street Oceania Oil Oil Industry Old Folks At Home Olfaction Oliver Stone Olympics Omega Males Ominous Signs Once You Go Black Open To Experience Openness To Experience Operational Sex Ratio Opiates Opioids Orban Organ Transplants Orlando Shooting Orthodoxy Osama Bin Laden Ottoman Empire Our Political Nature Out Of Africa Model Outbreeding Oxtr Oxytocin Paekchong Pakistan Pakistani Palatability Paleoamerindians Paleocons Paleolibertarianism Palestine Palestinians Pamela Geller Panama Canal Panama Papers Parasite Parasite Burden Parasite Manipulation Parent-child Interactions Parenting Parenting Parenting Behavioral Genetics Paris Attacks Paris Spring Parsi Paternal Investment Pathogens Patriot Act Patriotism Paul Ewald Paul Krugman Paul Lepage Paul Manafort Paul Ryan Paul Singer Paul Wolfowitz Pavel Grudinin Peace Index Peak Jobs Pearl Harbor Pedophilia Peers Peggy Seagrave Pennsylvania Pentagon Perception Management Personality Peru Peter Frost Peter Thiel Peter Turchin Phil Onderdonk Phil Rushton Philip Breedlove Philippines Physical Anthropology Pierre Van Den Berghe Pieter Van Ostaeyen Piigs Pioneer Hypothesis Pioneers PISA Pizzagate Planets Planned Parenthood Pledge Of Allegiance Pleiotropy Pol Pot Poland Police State Police Training Politics Poll Results Polls Polygenic Score Polygyny Pope Francis Population Growth Population Replacement Populism Pornography Portugal Post 199 Post 201 Post 99 Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc Post-Nationalism Pot Poverty PRC Prenatal Hormones Prescription Drugs Press Censorship Pretty Graphs Prince Bandar Priti Patel Privatization Progressives Project Plowshares Propaganda Prostitution Protestantism Proud To Be Black Psychology Psychometrics Psychopaths Psychopathy Pubertal Timing Public Schools Puerto Rico Punishment Puritans Putin Pwc Qatar Quakers Quantitative Genetics Quebec Quebecois Race Race And Crime Race And Genomics Race And Iq Race And Religion Race/Crime Race Denialism Race Riots Rachel Dolezal Rachel Maddow Racial Intelligence Racial Reality Racism Radical Islam Ralph And Coop Ralph Nader Rand Paul Randy Fine Rap Music Raqqa Rating People Rationality Raul Pedrozo Razib Khan Reaction Time Reading Real Estate Real Women Really Stop The Armchair Psychoanalysis Recep Tayyip Erdogan Reciprocal Altruism Reconstruction Red Hair Red State Blue State Red States Blue States Refugee Crisis Regional Differences Regional Populations Regression To The Mean Religion Religion Religion And Philosophy Rena Wing Renewable Energy Rentier Reprint Reproductive Strategy Republican Jesus Republican Party Responsibility Reuel Gerecht Reverend Moon Revolution Of 1905 Revolutions Rex Tillerson Richard Dawkins Richard Dyer Richard Lewontin Richard Lynn Richard Nixon Richard Pryor Richard Pryor Live On The Sunset Strip Richard Russell Rick Perry Rickets Rikishi Robert Ford Robert Kraft Robert Lindsay Robert McNamara Robert Mueller Robert Mugabe Robert Plomin Robert Putnam Robert Reich Robert Spencer Robocop Robots Roe Vs. Wade Roger Ailes Rohingya Roman Empire Rome Ron Paul Ron Unz Ronald Reagan Rooshv Rosemary Hopcroft Ross Douthat Ross Perot Rotherham Roy Moore RT International Rupert Murdoch Rural Liberals Rushton Russell Kirk Russia-Georgia War Russiagate Russian Elections 2018 Russian Hack Russian History Russian Military Russian Orthodox Church Ruth Benedict Saakashvili Sam Harris Same Sex Attraction Same-sex Marriage Same-sex Parents Samoans Samuel George Morton San Bernadino Massacre Sandra Beleza Sandusky Sandy Hook Sarah Palin Sarin Gas Satoshi Kanazawa saudi Saudi Arabia Saying What You Have To Say Scandinavia Scandinavians Scarborough Shoal Schizophrenia Science: It Works Bitches Scientism Scotch-irish Scotland Scots Irish Scott Ritter Scrabble Secession Seduced By Food Semai Senate Separating The Truth From The Nonsense Serbia Serenity Sergei Magnitsky Sergei Skripal Sex Sex Ratio Sex Ratio At Birth Sex Recognition Sex Tape Sex Work Sexism Sexual Antagonistic Selection Sexual Dimorphism Sexual Division Of Labor Sexual Fluidity Sexual Identity Sexual Maturation Sexual Orientation Sexual Selection Sexually Transmitted Diseases Seymour Hersh Shai Masot Shame Culture Shanghai Cooperation Organisation Shanghai Stock Exchange Shared Environment Shekhovstov Sheldon Adelson Shias And Sunnis Shimon Arad Shimon Peres Shinzo Abe Shmuley Boteach Shorts And Funnies Shoshana Bryen Shurat HaDin Shyness Siamak Namazi Sibel Edmonds Siberia Silicon Valley Simon Baron Cohen Singapore Single Men Single Motherhood Single Mothers Single Women Sisyphean Six Day War SJWs Skin Bleaching Skin Color Skin Tone Slate Slave Trade Slavery Slavoj Zizek Slavs SLC24A5 Sleep Slobodan Milosevic Smart Fraction Smell Smoking Snow Snyderman Social Constructs Social Justice Warriors Socialism Sociopathy Sociosexuality Solar Energy Solutions Somalia Sometimes You Don't Like The Answer South Africa South Asia South China Sea South Korea South Sudan Southern Italians Southern Poverty Law Center Soviet Union Space Space Space Program Space Race Spain Spanish Paradox Speech SPLC Sports Sputnik News Squid Ink Srebrenica Stabby Somali Staffan Stalinism Stanislas Dehaene Star Trek State Department State Formation States Rights Statins Steny Hoyer Stephan Guyenet Stephen Cohen Stephen Colbert Stephen Hadley Stephen Jay Gould Sterling Seagrave Steve Bannon Steve Sailer Steven Mnuchin Steven Pinker Still Not Free Buddy Stolen Generations Strategic Affairs Ministry Stroke Belt Student Loans Stuxnet SU-57 Sub-replacement Fertility Sub-Saharan Africa Sub-Saharan Africans Subprime Mortgage Crisis Subsistence Living Suffrage Sugar Suicide Summing It All Up Supernatural Support Me Support The Jayman Supreme Court Supression Surveillance Susan Glasser Susan Rice Sweden Swiss Switzerland Syed Farook Syrian Refugees Syriza Ta-Nehisi Coates Taiwan Tale Of Two Maps Taliban Tamerlan Tsarnaev TAS2R16 Tashfeen Malik Taste Tastiness Tatars Tatu Vanhanen Tawang Tax Cuts Tax Evasion Taxes Tea Party Team Performance Technology Ted Cruz Tell Me About You Tell The Truth Terman Terman's Termites Terroris Terrorists Tesla Testosterone Thailand The 10000 Year Explosion The Bible The Breeder's Equation The Confederacy The Dark Knight The Dark Triad The Death Penalty The Deep South The Devil Is In The Details The Dustbowl The Economist The Far West The Future The Great Plains The Great Wall The Left The Left Coast The New York Times The Pursuit Of Happyness The Rock The Saker The Son Also Rises The South The Walking Dead The Washington Post The Wide Environment The World Theodore Roosevelt Theresa May Things Going Sour Third World Thomas Aquinas Thomas Friedman Thomas Perez Thomas Sowell Thomas Talhelm Thorstein Veblen Thurgood Marshall Tibet Tidewater Tiger Mom Time Preference Timmons Title IX Tobin Tax Tom Cotton Tom Naughton Tone It Down Guys Seriously Tony Blair Torture Toxoplasma Gondii TPP Traffic Traffic Fatalities Tragedy Trans-Species Polymorphism Transgender Transgenderism Transsexuals Treasury Tropical Humans Trump Trust TTIP Tuition Tulsi Gabbard Turkheimer TWA 800 Twin Study Twins Twins Raised Apart Twintuition Twitter Two Party System UKIP Ukrainian Crisis UN Security Council Unemployment Unions United Kingdom United Nations United States Universalism University Admissions Upper Paleolithic Urban Riots Ursula Gauthier Uruguay US Blacks USS Liberty Utopian Uttar Pradesh UV Uyghurs Vaginal Yeast Valerie Plame Vassopressin Vdare Veep Venezuela Veterans Administration Victor Canfield Victor Davis Hanson Victoria Nuland Victorian England Victorianism Video Games Vietnam Vietnam War Vietnamese Vikings Violence Vioxx Virginia Visa Waivers Visual Word Form Area Vitamin D Voronezh Vote Fraud Vouchers Vwfa W.E.I.R.D. W.E.I.R.D.O. Wahhabis Wall Street Walter Bodmer Wang Jing War On Christmas War On Terror Washington Post WasPage Watergate Watsoning We Are What We Are We Don't Know All The Environmental Causes Weight Loss WEIRDO Welfare Western Europe Western European Marriage Pattern Western Media Western Religion Westerns What Can You Do What's The Cause Where They're At Where's The Fallout White America White Americans White Conservative Males White Death White Helmets White Nationalist Nuttiness White Nationalists White Privilege White Slavery White Supremacy White Wife Why We Believe Hbd Wikileaks Wild Life Wilhelm Furtwangler William Browder William Buckley William D. Hamilton William Graham Sumner William McGougall WINEP Winston Churchill Women In The Workplace Woodley Effect Woodrow Wilson WORDSUM Workers Working Class Working Memory World Values Survey World War I World War Z Writing WTO X Little Miss JayLady Xhosa Xi Jinping Xinjiang Yankeedom Yankees Yazidis Yemen Yes I Am A Brother Yes I Am Liberal - But That Kind Of Liberal Yochi Dreazen You Can't Handle The Truth You Don't Know Shit Youtube Ban Yugoslavia Zbigniew Brzezinski Zhang Yimou Zika Zika Virus Zimbabwe Zionism Zombies Zones Of Thought Zulfikar Ali Bhutto
Nothing found
All Commenters • My
Comments
• Followed
Commenters
All Comments / On "Cognitive Empathy"
 All Comments / On "Cognitive Empathy"
    One of my interests is affective empathy, the involuntary desire not only to understand another person's emotional state but also to make it one's own—in short, to feel the pain and joy of other people. This mental trait has a heritability of 68% and is normally distributed along a bell curve within any one population...
  • […] Frost, “A Genetic Marker for Empathy?,” The Unz Review, August 22, […]

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @szopen
    One more thing:

    List of Slavic countries

    West Slavic:
    Poland, Czech, Slovakia (not a single orthodox, 2 not vodka)
    Southern Slavic:

    SLovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Macedonia, BUlgaria (1 Muslim, 3 orthodox, 2 catholic, only 1 Vodka)

    Eastern Slavic:
    Belarus, Ukraine, RUssia (orthodox, vodka)

    So you have 12 Slavic countries (not counting small MOntenegro), of which 6 is orthodox and 5 are VODKA. THis is not "MOST".

    If you are going by the population, then it's different for one reason: Russia, which alone counts for almost half of Slavic population. Once exlude Russiam, by population again you won't have "MOST" Slavs.

    In summary, you took "Russia" for granted as standing for "Most slavic countries". This is very annoying for most of us non-Russians.

    I was talking about Eastern Europe as a whole. My definition of Eastern Europe is all the European post-communist states (except East Germany) plus Russia, for a total of 21 nations with a population of roughly 330 million.

    In linguistic terms there are:

    13 Slavic nations (pop. 285 million)
    2 Latin nations (pop. 25 million)
    2 Finno-Ugric nations (pop. 10 million)
    2 Albanian nations (pop. 5 million)
    2 Baltic nations (pop. 5 million)

    In religious terms there are:

    9 Orthodox nations (pop. 240 million)
    7 Catholic nations (pop. 75 million)
    3 Muslim nations (pop. 10 million)
    2 Protestant nations (pop. 5 million)

    By alcoholic preference there are:

    10 Vodka nations (pop. 240 million)
    5 Beer nations (pop. 65 million)
    4 Wine nations (pop. 20 million)
    2 nations with no data (pop. 5 million)

    So I think it’s fair to say that most (but not all) Eastern Europeans are Slavs; are Orthodox; and prefer vodka.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @jeppo
    I included Austria with the other German-speaking countries because ... wait for it ... it's a German-speaking country. That's the "scientific reason" behind my "petty theory."

    I never said all Eastern European countries are Orthodox or prefer vodka, but most are and do. The drink of choice in the countries you named are:

    Poland: beer
    Czech: beer
    Slovakia: spirits
    Slovenia: wine
    Croatia: wine

    http://chartsbin.com/view/1017

    One more thing:

    List of Slavic countries

    West Slavic:
    Poland, Czech, Slovakia (not a single orthodox, 2 not vodka)
    Southern Slavic:

    SLovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Macedonia, BUlgaria (1 Muslim, 3 orthodox, 2 catholic, only 1 Vodka)

    Eastern Slavic:
    Belarus, Ukraine, RUssia (orthodox, vodka)

    So you have 12 Slavic countries (not counting small MOntenegro), of which 6 is orthodox and 5 are VODKA. THis is not “MOST”.

    If you are going by the population, then it’s different for one reason: Russia, which alone counts for almost half of Slavic population. Once exlude Russiam, by population again you won’t have “MOST” Slavs.

    In summary, you took “Russia” for granted as standing for “Most slavic countries”. This is very annoying for most of us non-Russians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jeppo
    I was talking about Eastern Europe as a whole. My definition of Eastern Europe is all the European post-communist states (except East Germany) plus Russia, for a total of 21 nations with a population of roughly 330 million.

    In linguistic terms there are:

    13 Slavic nations (pop. 285 million)
    2 Latin nations (pop. 25 million)
    2 Finno-Ugric nations (pop. 10 million)
    2 Albanian nations (pop. 5 million)
    2 Baltic nations (pop. 5 million)

    In religious terms there are:

    9 Orthodox nations (pop. 240 million)
    7 Catholic nations (pop. 75 million)
    3 Muslim nations (pop. 10 million)
    2 Protestant nations (pop. 5 million)

    By alcoholic preference there are:

    10 Vodka nations (pop. 240 million)
    5 Beer nations (pop. 65 million)
    4 Wine nations (pop. 20 million)
    2 nations with no data (pop. 5 million)

    So I think it's fair to say that most (but not all) Eastern Europeans are Slavs; are Orthodox; and prefer vodka.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @jeppo
    I included Austria with the other German-speaking countries because ... wait for it ... it's a German-speaking country. That's the "scientific reason" behind my "petty theory."

    I never said all Eastern European countries are Orthodox or prefer vodka, but most are and do. The drink of choice in the countries you named are:

    Poland: beer
    Czech: beer
    Slovakia: spirits
    Slovenia: wine
    Croatia: wine

    http://chartsbin.com/view/1017

    Sure, it’s German speaking, but genetically it has a lot of Slavic admixture. Meaning you can’t assume it’s all innate.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @PandaAtWar

    "Korean respect for the aged is because of its culture – not its genetics – Koreans are Confucians – Confucian philosophy venerates the old and one’s ancestors."

     

    What's your concrete proof that it's not in genetics?

    It's all too easy to claim that is "only culture". A culture doesn't grow and maintain itself in empty air, but is mostly, and firmly, supported via the genetics underneath - so called "gene-culture co-evolution", else why such a Confucius culture only exists within the East Asians, but not randomly in Romania or Morrocco or somewhere, eh?

    "When a Korean immigrates to America his successive generations lose his Confucian philosophy. They adapted to Western philosophy"
     
    Again, that's a very bold claim. They may dress, speak and act like, or even more than, their Western counterparts in the West on the surface, perhaps due to the social pressure of "blending-in". Panda doubts that they have lost their Confucian philosophy while at their homes.

    Culture co-evolution works that way…

    Cultural model generally fit with SOME personality types. For example, US(ass) government may introduce a gothic culture among young people as the (advantageous) behavioural standard. Even if most americans are not gothic-like (depression cult) in personality type, some will be. Those who are gothic-like will can increase the number of children in a long term, because cultural (environmental) stress tend to reduce fertility. And conformist people will adapt themselves in these culture, like ”racism’ and ”homophobia’ today. Racism, specially against blacks, was a mainstream in 50′s. Homossexuality, in western, specially, was treated as mental disease (partially correct, specially for excessive promiscuous one) at least in the 70′s.

    Cultural change fluctuations mean micro-adaptation. Humans live in societies, we are a social animals. And ordinary humans reflect less about their actions.

    Cognitive ordinary people tend to have less responsibility about factual reality or truth.

    Biological changes, like, biological-like gothic folks become majority (increase in suicides and depressions) in the United States is more rare, but superficial or cutural changes are trivial.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art
    “I think that Koreans are more polite and respectful to the old. I also think foreigners should learn from Koreans about how they treat the aged with courtesy.”

    The idea that genetics rules all of human behavior is bogus. God gave us brains that takes in information ---- we can use that information in a logical fashion and create knowledge. That knowledge can override our biological instincts. The process leads to philosophical cultures.

    Korean respect for the aged is because of its culture - not its genetics – Koreans are Confucians – Confucian philosophy venerates the old and one’s ancestors.

    When a Korean immigrates to America his successive generations lose his Confucian philosophy. They adapted to Western philosophy. Hmm – how can this be - two thousand years of genetics are changed in two generations. Of course, it was never genetics in the first place.

    Animals have empathy – 98% of everybody has some capacity to be empathic. It is ones culture that determines how it is expressed and to what degree.

    “Korean respect for the aged is because of its culture – not its genetics – Koreans are Confucians – Confucian philosophy venerates the old and one’s ancestors.”

    What’s your concrete proof that it’s not in genetics?

    It’s all too easy to claim that is “only culture”. A culture doesn’t grow and maintain itself in empty air, but is mostly, and firmly, supported via the genetics underneath – so called “gene-culture co-evolution”, else why such a Confucius culture only exists within the East Asians, but not randomly in Romania or Morrocco or somewhere, eh?

    “When a Korean immigrates to America his successive generations lose his Confucian philosophy. They adapted to Western philosophy”

    Again, that’s a very bold claim. They may dress, speak and act like, or even more than, their Western counterparts in the West on the surface, perhaps due to the social pressure of “blending-in”. Panda doubts that they have lost their Confucian philosophy while at their homes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Culture co-evolution works that way...

    Cultural model generally fit with SOME personality types. For example, US(ass) government may introduce a gothic culture among young people as the (advantageous) behavioural standard. Even if most americans are not gothic-like (depression cult) in personality type, some will be. Those who are gothic-like will can increase the number of children in a long term, because cultural (environmental) stress tend to reduce fertility. And conformist people will adapt themselves in these culture, like ''racism' and ''homophobia' today. Racism, specially against blacks, was a mainstream in 50's. Homossexuality, in western, specially, was treated as mental disease (partially correct, specially for excessive promiscuous one) at least in the 70's.

    Cultural change fluctuations mean micro-adaptation. Humans live in societies, we are a social animals. And ordinary humans reflect less about their actions.

    Cognitive ordinary people tend to have less responsibility about factual reality or truth.

    Biological changes, like, biological-like gothic folks become majority (increase in suicides and depressions) in the United States is more rare, but superficial or cutural changes are trivial.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ron Unz
    Well, I'm absolutely no expert on this, but is there any solid evidence that East Asians have a lower innate tendency toward "affective empathy" than Northwest Europeans?

    Offhand, "affective empathy" seems to me like one of those fuzzy psychological traits that is difficult to objectively measure and is also subject to considerable cultural influence...

    Absolutely!

    I am not an expert on this either, but see Panda’s intuitive response on this “effective empathy” here last year:

    http://evoandproud.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/affective-empathy-evolutionary-mistake.html

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “Could an anonymous commenter do better?”
    No, but I’ll share some thoughts about song lyrics if nobody minds.

    Empathy with personal identification i.e. shared preference/experience

    If you like pina colada or getting caught in the rain (etc.)

    [MORE]

    I remember, a back street in Naples, two children dressing in rags. Both touched with a burning ambition, to shake off their lowly born rags. So look into my eyes marie-claire, and remember just who you are. then go and forget me forever, but I know you still bear the scar, yes you do, deep inside

    Empathy with partial personal identification i.e. learned

    Now I understand, what you tried to say to me, and how you suffered for your sanity. They wouldn’t listen, they’re not listening still. perhaps they never will.

    Empathy without personal identification

    Papa was a rolling stone. Wherever he laid his hat was his home. And when he died, all he left us was alone.

    Jolene…please don’t take him just because you can.

    Empathy with Mixed non-personal/personal identification

    I am just a poor boy.
    Though my story’s seldom told,
    I have squandered my resistance
    For a pocketful of mumbles,
    Such are promises

    All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

    Allegorical Empathy

    They stab him with their steeley knives but they just can’t kill the beast….you can check out anytime you like but you can never leave

    Self-empathy

    Many’s the time I’ve been mistaken and oftentime confused and I’ve also been forsaken and certainly abused (etc.)

    Poetic empathy

    So the first thing that they see
    That allows them the right to be
    Why they follow it, you know, it’s called bad luck

    And you may ask yourself
    What is that beautiful house?
    And you may ask yourself
    Where does that highway go to?
    And you may ask yourself
    Am I right?…Am I wrong?
    And you may say to yourself
    My God!…What have I done?!

    Universal empathy

    What the world needs now, is love sweet love. That’s the only thing there’s just too little of.

    Empathy for the natural world

    I see trees of green and red roses too…And I think to myself, what a wonderful world.

    Sympathy without personal identification

    On a cold and grey Chicago morn, a poor little baby boy was born. In the ghetto. And his mother cried.

    Universal sympathy

    I’d like to build the world a home
    And furnish it with love
    Grow apple trees and honey bees
    And snow-white turtle doves

    Sympathy with personal identification

    Hey there lonely girl (etc.)

    There’s guns across the river, aimin’ at ya. And a lawman on your trail’d like to catch ya….Billy, they don’t like you to be so free

    Sympathy with personal identification and empathy

    When you’re weary, feeling small
    When tears are in your eyes, I’ll dry them all
    I’m on your side, oh, when times get rough
    And friends just can’t be found
    Like a bridge over troubled water
    I will lay me down

    Sympathy with personal identification but without empathy

    L.A. Proved too much for the man
    He said he’s goin’ back to find
    The world he left behind
    He’s leavin’ On that midnight train to Georgia
    And I’ll be with him On that midnight train to Georgia
    Coz I’d rather live in his world
    Than live without him in mine

    *****************************************

    That’s what I reckon, anyway!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Change in society since the seventies. People’s goals have shifted steadily toward wealth, social status and good looks.

    http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21646001-even-religion-america-offers-more-choice-pick-and-mix

    The point is made more bluntly by Samuel Rodriguez, president of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, an umbrella body for more than 40,000 Pentecostal and evangelical Latino churches in America and Puerto Rico. The Catholic church in Latin America is “an extension of the bureaucratic state”, he charges, and offers only indirect access to God through the Virgin Mary and the priesthood. Worse, Catholics are told that salvation awaits in another life—and in the meantime, blessed are the poor. In contrast, evangelical churches offer a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, leading to a blessed life here and now. [...] Father Ed Benioff is director of an Office of New Evangelisation for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, founded in 2013 to woo wavering worshippers, especially younger ones. He finds young Latinos steeped in impatient American dreams of individual success. Father Ed is pinning his hopes on the example of Pope Francis, offering the millennials—the age group now in their teens to early 30s—a meaningful life by serving others.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    I know that this label tend to be ephemerous but people tend to aglomerate themselves in groups where happen sharing of similar ideas and attitudes. Leftism is a philosophical meme like traditional religions but some people fit perfectly with one of this memetic way of life, in other words, there are a prototypical leftist and conservative.

    But even in recent times, many people have switched from "the left" to "the right." In the United States, southern whites and "ethnic whites" (generally Catholics and Jews) used to identify with the political left. They were part of the Roosevelt coalition. They migrated to the political right during the 1970s because they felt the left was becoming anti-white. This is less so with Jewish Americans, but in Europe a large part of the Jewish community has migrated to the right and even to the far right.

    The out-group is composed of the people who refuse to accept the universalism.

    Historically that wasn't usually the case. I'm not even sure it's usually the case today. Are Egyptian Copts less universalistic than Egyptian Muslims?

    “Pro-social behavior is learned and is not at all the same thing as affective empathy.” So your “affective empathy” is not social behavior.

    Maybe you should read the wiki entry:

    Pro-social behavior or "voluntary behavior intended to benefit another", is a social behavior that "benefits other people or society as a whole," "such as helping, sharing, donating, co-operating, and volunteering." These actions may be motivated by empathy and by concern about the welfare and rights of others, as well as for egoistic or practical concerns.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosocial_behavior
     
    It seems to me that you want to take “caring” out of the definition of empathy. “Caring” meaning the motivation behind looking out for our fellow humans. You want to make empathy into an exclusive none thoughtful none intellectual hard coded biological reaction.

    It's not so much what I want as how humans actually behave. The lady who takes in dozens and dozens of stray cats is acting compulsively. She's not really thinking out the consequences. This is not to say that affective empathy is wrong. Sometimes behavior has to be hardwired. Sometimes we spend too much time thinking and thinking. Would people have sex if it were purely a cold, sober decision?

    Is human cultural goodness going to take another hit by intellectuals?

    Most of those hits have come from well-meaning people who believe that everything is learned and that we can become whatever we want to be. And if we can't it's because somebody somewhere is holding us down.

    No question – empathetic actions are natural – they are generated by a biological genetic marker (most likely more than one). There are genetic markers for muscles as well. As we mature, activating our muscles is more and more a matter of will – a matter of intellectual intent. Activating empathy is a matter of will also. In most human situations empathy is only one of many emotions that can be activated. Like a muscle, you use it or lose it. If you use it, and how you use it, is mostly a learned cultural phenomena.

    Empathy is a type of action. An animal of one species can show empathy for an animal of different species – that is a fact. We don’t use “empathy” when one animal eats another animal. We use the word empathy when kindness is apparent – when we observe caring.

    A car has four main elements to it. It is a wagon with wheels and a motor, and it can be steered. If you take away any one of those elements, it is not a car.

    Empathy has three elements to it – first there is an observation, then am element of personal identification tempered with kindness. Remove any element and it is not empathy.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @iffen

    There is always a relative outgroup. For Vermont it might be Alabama. This is the problem with theories like HBD chick’s idea that some people see themselves as in a single delimited group with all humanity.
     
    The out-group is composed of the people who refuse to accept the universalism. If you would otherwise be in the universalist group but you reject the rainbow vision by clinging to your white race, regional group, gender identity, religious group, etc., you are the out-group.

    Well the traditional groups like nation states, which are the crucial entity, actually exist. The Universalist group is just like the arbitrary group in the experiment in which the subject was shown photos of individuals and told those were fellow members of the same arbitrary group as the subject. The subject’s theory of mind (ie cognitive empathy) brain circuits lit up when looking at the photos of the fellow arbitrary group members. The people pushing the Universalist idea are Liberals, who are not arbitrary, represent a coherent tradition, and are immensely powerful.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3209554/Is-baby-racist-Scientists-discover-way-reverse-racial-bias-young-children.html

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I know that this label tend to be ephemerous but people tend to aglomerate themselves in groups where happen sharing of similar ideas and attitudes. Leftism is a philosophical meme like traditional religions but some people fit perfectly with one of this memetic way of life, in other words, there are a prototypical leftist and conservative.

    But even in recent times, many people have switched from “the left” to “the right.” In the United States, southern whites and “ethnic whites” (generally Catholics and Jews) used to identify with the political left. They were part of the Roosevelt coalition. They migrated to the political right during the 1970s because they felt the left was becoming anti-white. This is less so with Jewish Americans, but in Europe a large part of the Jewish community has migrated to the right and even to the far right.

    The out-group is composed of the people who refuse to accept the universalism.

    Historically that wasn’t usually the case. I’m not even sure it’s usually the case today. Are Egyptian Copts less universalistic than Egyptian Muslims?

    “Pro-social behavior is learned and is not at all the same thing as affective empathy.” So your “affective empathy” is not social behavior.

    Maybe you should read the wiki entry:

    Pro-social behavior or “voluntary behavior intended to benefit another”, is a social behavior that “benefits other people or society as a whole,” “such as helping, sharing, donating, co-operating, and volunteering.” These actions may be motivated by empathy and by concern about the welfare and rights of others, as well as for egoistic or practical concerns.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosocial_behavior

    It seems to me that you want to take “caring” out of the definition of empathy. “Caring” meaning the motivation behind looking out for our fellow humans. You want to make empathy into an exclusive none thoughtful none intellectual hard coded biological reaction.

    It’s not so much what I want as how humans actually behave. The lady who takes in dozens and dozens of stray cats is acting compulsively. She’s not really thinking out the consequences. This is not to say that affective empathy is wrong. Sometimes behavior has to be hardwired. Sometimes we spend too much time thinking and thinking. Would people have sex if it were purely a cold, sober decision?

    Is human cultural goodness going to take another hit by intellectuals?

    Most of those hits have come from well-meaning people who believe that everything is learned and that we can become whatever we want to be. And if we can’t it’s because somebody somewhere is holding us down.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    No question – empathetic actions are natural – they are generated by a biological genetic marker (most likely more than one). There are genetic markers for muscles as well. As we mature, activating our muscles is more and more a matter of will – a matter of intellectual intent. Activating empathy is a matter of will also. In most human situations empathy is only one of many emotions that can be activated. Like a muscle, you use it or lose it. If you use it, and how you use it, is mostly a learned cultural phenomena.

    Empathy is a type of action. An animal of one species can show empathy for an animal of different species – that is a fact. We don’t use “empathy” when one animal eats another animal. We use the word empathy when kindness is apparent – when we observe caring.

    A car has four main elements to it. It is a wagon with wheels and a motor, and it can be steered. If you take away any one of those elements, it is not a car.

    Empathy has three elements to it – first there is an observation, then am element of personal identification tempered with kindness. Remove any element and it is not empathy.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Jay
    Data on charitable contributions as a percentage of income show that people in conservative states (presumably conservatives) are more generous than people in liberal states (presumably liberals). For 2014, the states with the highest percentage donation/income were Utah, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee and Georgia; the states with the lowest percentage donation/income were Rhode Island, New Jersey, Vermont, Maine and New Hampshire. Much of the conservative state giving is to churches, but much of churches' funds are spent on charity to the needy.

    Data on charitable contributions as a percentage of income show that people in conservative states (presumably conservatives) are more generous than people in liberal states (presumably liberals)

    I’m not surprised by that at all. Conservatives, I bet, care about charity/volunteering in the context of religion. A lot of them compelled to do so because of what their church requires. Even Muslims, the prototype of clannish, non-commonweal oriented people, give tons of money through religious organizations because of the inclusion of “alms” as one the Five Pillars of Islam. But I’m guessing that liberals feel more actual internal reward in giving to the poor, independent of any outside entity telling them to do so. Also, liberals are more likely to live in places where they expect the government to provide for the poor.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    Liberals seems have more mutations than conservatives, tend to look differently than their parents or than ethno-national phenotype.

    I'm wary of using terms like "liberal" and "conservative" because their meanings have changed so much, even over the past sixty years. In the U.S., Eisenhower was an isolationist who mistrusted the "military-industrial complex," and this sort of isolationism was typical among conservatives. Today, we have the opposite situation.

    Liberals from the New Deal era would be shocked by what is said today in the name of "liberalism." For that matter, the same would be true for many socialists and communists of those days. You would have to go out to the far left to find people similar to mainstream liberals of today.

    Could we say that empathy is a peception, an ability to perceive, whereas sympathy is an expression, a willingness to express?

    "We" could. The problem is that "we" are just you and I. Neither of us is in a position to change usage. I publish under my own name, yet my power to change the language is very limited. Could an anonymous commenter do better?

    I don’t quite understand why hbd*chick prefers an approximate line to the detailed line http://demoblography.blogspot.co.uk/2008/01/hajnal-line.html because the differences seem significant :-

    It's impossible to draw a single line. We're looking at clinal variation. In other words, the incidence of affective empathy declines gradually as one moves south and east. Even if we look at people within a single family, there will be some variation, due to mutations or accidents during development. Sociopaths have very low affective empathy (but high cognitive empathy), and they can show up in the best of families.

    Vermonters nowadays don’t have to deal with Indians on the warpath, but when that was a concern the Vermonters would have been offering big money for scalps of Indians

    There is a certain amount of exaggeration in some of those stories, but I see your point. High-empathy individuals can do terrible things to their fellow humans if they are convinced that those humans are "moral outsiders" -- people who pose an existential threat to the moral community.

    The idea that genetics rules all of human behavior is bogus. God gave us brains that takes in information —- we can use that information in a logical fashion and create knowledge. That knowledge can override our biological instincts.

    Yes, we can override our instincts, but the capacity to override them is itself genetic. In other words, some people are better at self-control than others.

    When a Korean immigrates to America his successive generations lose his Confucian philosophy. They adapted to Western philosophy. Hmm – how can this be – two thousand years of genetics are changed in two generations. Of course, it was never genetics in the first place.

    I agree. That was my argument. Pro-social behavior is learned and is not at all the same thing as affective empathy. The resemblance is superficial. East Asians take care of their elderly out of a sense of duty. It's not a compulsive, involuntary behavior.

    Maybe you should read what I write before commenting.

    Animals have empathy – 98% of everybody has some capacity to be empathic

    Animals have very limited affective empathy, essentially between a mother and her young. Even cognitive empathy is very limited. This is the ancestral state of humans, and it is still the state of many humans on this planet.

    I'm not sure where you get the figure of 98%. I am saying that the capacity for empathy (both cognitive and affective) varies greatly among humans. If you think that most people are like you in this respect, or approximately so, you are dead wrong.

    Some mistakes don't have serious consequences. This isn't one of them.

    liberal whites tend to be more concerned with more abstract concerns like social justice and community volunteering.

    That hasn't been my experience. I used to do a lot of volunteer work, and many of the other volunteers were practicing Christians from conservative churches. Again, words like "liberal" and "conservative" are very slippery. Is a libertarian conservative the same kind of person as a social conservative?

    Pop science is all about how you spin it.

    I agree it's important to speak plainly and simply in language that people can understand. This is one of my shortcomings -- I have to translate my thoughts into another language.

    There is only so much one person can do, and for now it's better for me to do what I can best do.

    Why – what for —- culture trumps genetics – why not just build a caring empathic culture

    There are limits to that approach. It's possible to override our inborn predispositions, but that capacity is itself under genetic control. Nor can we give ourselves capacities that we simply don't have. Yes, there are workarounds of various sorts, and that's pretty much what we're doing now -- stronger law enforcement, increased surveillance of people, "mandatory caring," etc. Eventually, however, we'll get to a point where there simply won't be enough police to go around.

    It's far better to have a high-trust/high-empathy/high-guilt society. That kind of society will operate on its own. You won't need Big Brother.

    “Pro-social behavior is learned and is not at all the same thing as affective empathy.”

    So your “affective empathy” is not social behavior. To have empathy one has to observe another being. Don’t human observations of another being influence future actions? Doesn’t the use of the word “affective” imply future and action? Aren’t all actions involving humans – social behavior? Do your words logically add up to valued truth?

    It seems to me that you want to take “caring” out of the definition of empathy. “Caring” meaning the motivation behind looking out for our fellow humans. You want to make empathy into an exclusive none thoughtful none intellectual hard coded biological reaction. You want to strip social caring away from the idea of empathy. The problem for you is that we are social beings with emotions that steer behavior and with logical brains that steer behavior – we are hard coded to integrate the two. They work together – our lives are a product of both emotion and intellect. It is impossible to take social behavior out of the human empathy equation.

    I fear we are about to lose another long understood idealistic word to intellectual nonsense. Is “empathy” going to be corrupted like the words Liberal, and Marriage, and Investment are? Is human cultural goodness going to take another hit by intellectuals?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sean
    http://mic.com/articles/105702/neuroscientists-may-have-discovered-how-our-brains-can-overcome-racial-prejudice

    But even known-to-be arbitrary groups (the coin came up heads so you are in the greens not the blues) invoke social identity processes. Brain scans revealed that people shown photos and told 'these are the others assigned to your group' switched on their theory of mind brain areas. This and other test showed that being assigned to a group understood to be completely arbitrary makes us see other members of the group as more human.

    There is always a relative outgroup. For Vermont it might be Alabama. This is the problem with theories like HBD chick's idea that some people see themselves as in a single delimited group with all humanity.

    I do not quite understand what you meant, Sean. Could you explain again * If you do not bother you!

    There is a large proportion of homosexuals who are leftists. But if the ” socialist ” (pseudo) were not superficially favorable to their cause, most of them would not be leftists.

    Liberalism brings together a large number of disparate groups that are opposed to social Darwinism.

    The example of basketball (sports in general) is instructive. There are no sports, as well as ideologies, out of the human world. But nothing that man do to entertain or to believe, is based on something totally unnatural.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Hobbesian Meliorist
    I know I'm fighting against the tide here, but the word "empathy" is being misused in this article, as it very often is in general.

    The article defines empathy thus: "the involuntary desire not only to understand another person’s emotional state but also to make it one’s own—in short, to feel the pain and joy of other people."

    The correct English word for this is "sympathy".

    Empathy, if it is to be a useful and not entirely redundant word, is the cognizance of the feelings of others, as distinct from the sharing of those feelings.

    The word was introduced to the English language in the early 20th century by Titchener (who invented it), but its current popularity owes to the work of the post-Freudian psychotherapist, Heinz Kohut.

    Heinz Kohut explained the distinction with reference to torture and punishment: the torturer uses empathy (the ability to imagine and recognize the feelings of the other) to know how to maximize the victim's pain, but the torturer feels little or no sympathy for the victim. Sympathy would stand in the way of the torturer's goals.

    Empathy and sympathy don't always go together. Besides the example of the torturer, there's also the case of the person who feels misplaced sympathy, because they incorrectly conceive how another person feels.

    So empathy can exist without sympathy, and sympathy without real empathy.

    the torturer uses empathy (the ability to imagine and recognize the feelings of the other)

    This does not seem to have a lot emotional content.

    I think of sympathy has having a great deal of emotion involved.

    I can’t see real connection between the two.

    It is comparing an empirical observation with a gut emotion.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • There is always a relative outgroup. For Vermont it might be Alabama. This is the problem with theories like HBD chick’s idea that some people see themselves as in a single delimited group with all humanity.

    The out-group is composed of the people who refuse to accept the universalism. If you would otherwise be in the universalist group but you reject the rainbow vision by clinging to your white race, regional group, gender identity, religious group, etc., you are the out-group.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    Well the traditional groups like nation states, which are the crucial entity, actually exist. The Universalist group is just like the arbitrary group in the experiment in which the subject was shown photos of individuals and told those were fellow members of the same arbitrary group as the subject. The subject's theory of mind (ie cognitive empathy) brain circuits lit up when looking at the photos of the fellow arbitrary group members. The people pushing the Universalist idea are Liberals, who are not arbitrary, represent a coherent tradition, and are immensely powerful.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3209554/Is-baby-racist-Scientists-discover-way-reverse-racial-bias-young-children.html

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Santoculto
    Peter,
    I know that this label tend to be ephemerous but people tend to aglomerate themselves in groups where happen sharing of similar ideas and attitudes. Leftism is a philosophical meme like traditional religions but some people fit perfectly with one of this memetic way of life, in other words, there are a prototypical leftist and conservative. Is like sports. Basketball is a cultural recreative meme but some people have the perfect biological profile toplay

    Problémy in my ”smart”phone..

    to play and not ”Toplay”, a nice bangladeshian guy, ;)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Santoculto
    Peter,
    I know that this label tend to be ephemerous but people tend to aglomerate themselves in groups where happen sharing of similar ideas and attitudes. Leftism is a philosophical meme like traditional religions but some people fit perfectly with one of this memetic way of life, in other words, there are a prototypical leftist and conservative. Is like sports. Basketball is a cultural recreative meme but some people have the perfect biological profile toplay

    http://mic.com/articles/105702/neuroscientists-may-have-discovered-how-our-brains-can-overcome-racial-prejudice

    But even known-to-be arbitrary groups (the coin came up heads so you are in the greens not the blues) invoke social identity processes. Brain scans revealed that people shown photos and told ‘these are the others assigned to your group’ switched on their theory of mind brain areas. This and other test showed that being assigned to a group understood to be completely arbitrary makes us see other members of the group as more human.

    There is always a relative outgroup. For Vermont it might be Alabama. This is the problem with theories like HBD chick’s idea that some people see themselves as in a single delimited group with all humanity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    I do not quite understand what you meant, Sean. Could you explain again * If you do not bother you!

    There is a large proportion of homosexuals who are leftists. But if the '' socialist '' (pseudo) were not superficially favorable to their cause, most of them would not be leftists.

    Liberalism brings together a large number of disparate groups that are opposed to social Darwinism.

    The example of basketball (sports in general) is instructive. There are no sports, as well as ideologies, out of the human world. But nothing that man do to entertain or to believe, is based on something totally unnatural.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Mad magazine had a joke years ago satirizing the liberal version of empathy:
    “The liberal holiday: be kind to your inferiors day.”

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    Liberals seems have more mutations than conservatives, tend to look differently than their parents or than ethno-national phenotype.

    I'm wary of using terms like "liberal" and "conservative" because their meanings have changed so much, even over the past sixty years. In the U.S., Eisenhower was an isolationist who mistrusted the "military-industrial complex," and this sort of isolationism was typical among conservatives. Today, we have the opposite situation.

    Liberals from the New Deal era would be shocked by what is said today in the name of "liberalism." For that matter, the same would be true for many socialists and communists of those days. You would have to go out to the far left to find people similar to mainstream liberals of today.

    Could we say that empathy is a peception, an ability to perceive, whereas sympathy is an expression, a willingness to express?

    "We" could. The problem is that "we" are just you and I. Neither of us is in a position to change usage. I publish under my own name, yet my power to change the language is very limited. Could an anonymous commenter do better?

    I don’t quite understand why hbd*chick prefers an approximate line to the detailed line http://demoblography.blogspot.co.uk/2008/01/hajnal-line.html because the differences seem significant :-

    It's impossible to draw a single line. We're looking at clinal variation. In other words, the incidence of affective empathy declines gradually as one moves south and east. Even if we look at people within a single family, there will be some variation, due to mutations or accidents during development. Sociopaths have very low affective empathy (but high cognitive empathy), and they can show up in the best of families.

    Vermonters nowadays don’t have to deal with Indians on the warpath, but when that was a concern the Vermonters would have been offering big money for scalps of Indians

    There is a certain amount of exaggeration in some of those stories, but I see your point. High-empathy individuals can do terrible things to their fellow humans if they are convinced that those humans are "moral outsiders" -- people who pose an existential threat to the moral community.

    The idea that genetics rules all of human behavior is bogus. God gave us brains that takes in information —- we can use that information in a logical fashion and create knowledge. That knowledge can override our biological instincts.

    Yes, we can override our instincts, but the capacity to override them is itself genetic. In other words, some people are better at self-control than others.

    When a Korean immigrates to America his successive generations lose his Confucian philosophy. They adapted to Western philosophy. Hmm – how can this be – two thousand years of genetics are changed in two generations. Of course, it was never genetics in the first place.

    I agree. That was my argument. Pro-social behavior is learned and is not at all the same thing as affective empathy. The resemblance is superficial. East Asians take care of their elderly out of a sense of duty. It's not a compulsive, involuntary behavior.

    Maybe you should read what I write before commenting.

    Animals have empathy – 98% of everybody has some capacity to be empathic

    Animals have very limited affective empathy, essentially between a mother and her young. Even cognitive empathy is very limited. This is the ancestral state of humans, and it is still the state of many humans on this planet.

    I'm not sure where you get the figure of 98%. I am saying that the capacity for empathy (both cognitive and affective) varies greatly among humans. If you think that most people are like you in this respect, or approximately so, you are dead wrong.

    Some mistakes don't have serious consequences. This isn't one of them.

    liberal whites tend to be more concerned with more abstract concerns like social justice and community volunteering.

    That hasn't been my experience. I used to do a lot of volunteer work, and many of the other volunteers were practicing Christians from conservative churches. Again, words like "liberal" and "conservative" are very slippery. Is a libertarian conservative the same kind of person as a social conservative?

    Pop science is all about how you spin it.

    I agree it's important to speak plainly and simply in language that people can understand. This is one of my shortcomings -- I have to translate my thoughts into another language.

    There is only so much one person can do, and for now it's better for me to do what I can best do.

    Why – what for —- culture trumps genetics – why not just build a caring empathic culture

    There are limits to that approach. It's possible to override our inborn predispositions, but that capacity is itself under genetic control. Nor can we give ourselves capacities that we simply don't have. Yes, there are workarounds of various sorts, and that's pretty much what we're doing now -- stronger law enforcement, increased surveillance of people, "mandatory caring," etc. Eventually, however, we'll get to a point where there simply won't be enough police to go around.

    It's far better to have a high-trust/high-empathy/high-guilt society. That kind of society will operate on its own. You won't need Big Brother.

    Peter,
    I know that this label tend to be ephemerous but people tend to aglomerate themselves in groups where happen sharing of similar ideas and attitudes. Leftism is a philosophical meme like traditional religions but some people fit perfectly with one of this memetic way of life, in other words, there are a prototypical leftist and conservative. Is like sports. Basketball is a cultural recreative meme but some people have the perfect biological profile toplay

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    http://mic.com/articles/105702/neuroscientists-may-have-discovered-how-our-brains-can-overcome-racial-prejudice

    But even known-to-be arbitrary groups (the coin came up heads so you are in the greens not the blues) invoke social identity processes. Brain scans revealed that people shown photos and told 'these are the others assigned to your group' switched on their theory of mind brain areas. This and other test showed that being assigned to a group understood to be completely arbitrary makes us see other members of the group as more human.

    There is always a relative outgroup. For Vermont it might be Alabama. This is the problem with theories like HBD chick's idea that some people see themselves as in a single delimited group with all humanity.

    , @Santoculto
    Problémy in my ''smart''phone..

    to play and not ''Toplay'', a nice bangladeshian guy, ;)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    It should be pointed out, though, that conservative whites do a lot of charity/volunteering through churches and religious organizations.

    Data on charitable contributions as a percentage of income show that people in conservative states (presumably conservatives) are more generous than people in liberal states (presumably liberals). For 2014, the states with the highest percentage donation/income were Utah, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee and Georgia; the states with the lowest percentage donation/income were Rhode Island, New Jersey, Vermont, Maine and New Hampshire. Much of the conservative state giving is to churches, but much of churches’ funds are spent on charity to the needy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    Data on charitable contributions as a percentage of income show that people in conservative states (presumably conservatives) are more generous than people in liberal states (presumably liberals)

    I'm not surprised by that at all. Conservatives, I bet, care about charity/volunteering in the context of religion. A lot of them compelled to do so because of what their church requires. Even Muslims, the prototype of clannish, non-commonweal oriented people, give tons of money through religious organizations because of the inclusion of "alms" as one the Five Pillars of Islam. But I'm guessing that liberals feel more actual internal reward in giving to the poor, independent of any outside entity telling them to do so. Also, liberals are more likely to live in places where they expect the government to provide for the poor.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    It should be pointed out, though, that conservative whites do a lot of charity/volunteering through churches and religious organizations.

    The evolution of white conservative is exactly to be like the average east asian, less religious, more intelligent, more literal but also more apathetic with real empathy, because real empathy is not just or specially long term positive attitudes but very short term, help people (and non-human animals) all the time, when they are in need. Conservatives tend to think a lot a long term, because psychological gratification of capitalistic system, while liberals (in my opinion, a very diverse group) tend to think in short term.

    It explain why almost of brazilian leftists believe that ”bolsa família” (money distribution for low classes) is a good way to reduce extreme poverty, despising the grotesque show of corruption of major”socialist” brazilian party.

    Brazilian leftist mentality is ”all brazilian parties are corrupted, but ”worker party” at least has achieved reduce extreme poverty” while typical brazilian (conservative) mentality about this specific political context is that ” poor people aren’t hard worker”.

    Leftists are naive to perceive that ”Worker party” is not doing it just because by their bleeding hearts but to create a long term dependent and stupid class, the archetypical ”proles”. Dependence is slavery.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Liberals seems have more mutations than conservatives, tend to look differently than their parents or than ethno-national phenotype.

    I’m wary of using terms like “liberal” and “conservative” because their meanings have changed so much, even over the past sixty years. In the U.S., Eisenhower was an isolationist who mistrusted the “military-industrial complex,” and this sort of isolationism was typical among conservatives. Today, we have the opposite situation.

    Liberals from the New Deal era would be shocked by what is said today in the name of “liberalism.” For that matter, the same would be true for many socialists and communists of those days. You would have to go out to the far left to find people similar to mainstream liberals of today.

    Could we say that empathy is a peception, an ability to perceive, whereas sympathy is an expression, a willingness to express?

    “We” could. The problem is that “we” are just you and I. Neither of us is in a position to change usage. I publish under my own name, yet my power to change the language is very limited. Could an anonymous commenter do better?

    I don’t quite understand why hbd*chick prefers an approximate line to the detailed line http://demoblography.blogspot.co.uk/2008/01/hajnal-line.html because the differences seem significant :-

    It’s impossible to draw a single line. We’re looking at clinal variation. In other words, the incidence of affective empathy declines gradually as one moves south and east. Even if we look at people within a single family, there will be some variation, due to mutations or accidents during development. Sociopaths have very low affective empathy (but high cognitive empathy), and they can show up in the best of families.

    Vermonters nowadays don’t have to deal with Indians on the warpath, but when that was a concern the Vermonters would have been offering big money for scalps of Indians

    There is a certain amount of exaggeration in some of those stories, but I see your point. High-empathy individuals can do terrible things to their fellow humans if they are convinced that those humans are “moral outsiders” — people who pose an existential threat to the moral community.

    The idea that genetics rules all of human behavior is bogus. God gave us brains that takes in information —- we can use that information in a logical fashion and create knowledge. That knowledge can override our biological instincts.

    Yes, we can override our instincts, but the capacity to override them is itself genetic. In other words, some people are better at self-control than others.

    When a Korean immigrates to America his successive generations lose his Confucian philosophy. They adapted to Western philosophy. Hmm – how can this be – two thousand years of genetics are changed in two generations. Of course, it was never genetics in the first place.

    I agree. That was my argument. Pro-social behavior is learned and is not at all the same thing as affective empathy. The resemblance is superficial. East Asians take care of their elderly out of a sense of duty. It’s not a compulsive, involuntary behavior.

    Maybe you should read what I write before commenting.

    Animals have empathy – 98% of everybody has some capacity to be empathic

    Animals have very limited affective empathy, essentially between a mother and her young. Even cognitive empathy is very limited. This is the ancestral state of humans, and it is still the state of many humans on this planet.

    I’m not sure where you get the figure of 98%. I am saying that the capacity for empathy (both cognitive and affective) varies greatly among humans. If you think that most people are like you in this respect, or approximately so, you are dead wrong.

    Some mistakes don’t have serious consequences. This isn’t one of them.

    liberal whites tend to be more concerned with more abstract concerns like social justice and community volunteering.

    That hasn’t been my experience. I used to do a lot of volunteer work, and many of the other volunteers were practicing Christians from conservative churches. Again, words like “liberal” and “conservative” are very slippery. Is a libertarian conservative the same kind of person as a social conservative?

    Pop science is all about how you spin it.

    I agree it’s important to speak plainly and simply in language that people can understand. This is one of my shortcomings — I have to translate my thoughts into another language.

    There is only so much one person can do, and for now it’s better for me to do what I can best do.

    Why – what for —- culture trumps genetics – why not just build a caring empathic culture

    There are limits to that approach. It’s possible to override our inborn predispositions, but that capacity is itself under genetic control. Nor can we give ourselves capacities that we simply don’t have. Yes, there are workarounds of various sorts, and that’s pretty much what we’re doing now — stronger law enforcement, increased surveillance of people, “mandatory caring,” etc. Eventually, however, we’ll get to a point where there simply won’t be enough police to go around.

    It’s far better to have a high-trust/high-empathy/high-guilt society. That kind of society will operate on its own. You won’t need Big Brother.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Peter,
    I know that this label tend to be ephemerous but people tend to aglomerate themselves in groups where happen sharing of similar ideas and attitudes. Leftism is a philosophical meme like traditional religions but some people fit perfectly with one of this memetic way of life, in other words, there are a prototypical leftist and conservative. Is like sports. Basketball is a cultural recreative meme but some people have the perfect biological profile toplay
    , @Art
    “Pro-social behavior is learned and is not at all the same thing as affective empathy.”


    So your “affective empathy” is not social behavior. To have empathy one has to observe another being. Don’t human observations of another being influence future actions? Doesn’t the use of the word “affective” imply future and action? Aren’t all actions involving humans - social behavior? Do your words logically add up to valued truth?

    It seems to me that you want to take “caring” out of the definition of empathy. “Caring” meaning the motivation behind looking out for our fellow humans. You want to make empathy into an exclusive none thoughtful none intellectual hard coded biological reaction. You want to strip social caring away from the idea of empathy. The problem for you is that we are social beings with emotions that steer behavior and with logical brains that steer behavior – we are hard coded to integrate the two. They work together – our lives are a product of both emotion and intellect. It is impossible to take social behavior out of the human empathy equation.

    I fear we are about to lose another long understood idealistic word to intellectual nonsense. Is “empathy” going to be corrupted like the words Liberal, and Marriage, and Investment are? Is human cultural goodness going to take another hit by intellectuals?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    East Asians tend to regard themselves as being more empathic than Westerners, including Northwest Europeans,

    All humans display some affective empathy. In the ancestral state, affective empathy seems to have been confined to relationships within the family, particularly between a mother and her children. Beyond that limited range, affective empathy has to be learned, and even then it's not really "affective" empathy. It's pro-social behavior.

    This is the situation in East Asia. East Asians are taught to show respect for the elderly but this is a learned pro-social behavior. It's not empathy, and I question whether your Korean hosts were using that word.

    I know I’m fighting against the tide here, but the word “empathy” is being misused in this article, as it very often is in general.

    I'm using the terms "affective empathy" and "cognitive empathy" as they have been defined in the literature. These concepts seem to correspond to your use of the terms "empathy" and "sympathy."

    Peter, I recently thought of a good way to test for for affective empathy.

    There is no shortage of psychometric tests for affective empathy. The challenge now is to measure the genetic component of affective empathy not only in different individuals but also in different populations.

    Come to think of it the time frame for selection for the variant is going to be critical for following up PF’s line of speculation.

    The time frame would be critical only if the alleles favoring affective empathy were completely absent in ancestral humans. If we take the deletion variant for ADRA2b as an example, we find it in all human populations. It's just that the incidence varies from one to the next. So you don't have to wait a long time for that mutation to arise. It's already there. You just need a selection pressure to push the incidence in one direction or another.

    My "speculation" is that all humans feel affective empathy to some extent. It was originally confined, however, to immediate family members, particularly to the relationships between a mother and her young children. In some human populations, affective empathy has become extended to a much broader range of social relationships.

    East Asians do not seem more empathetic than Europeans, but differently

    It looks like East Asians have a higher level of cognitive empathy and a lower level of affective empathy.

    If the Chinese, Japanese, Siberians and Israelis have a higher average incidence of the “empathy gene” than the Swiss, Dutch, Canadians and Americans, then the Hajnal Line and the Western European Marriage Pattern don’t really tell us much about the evolution of affective empathy.

    Some of the Israelis but not others. More to the point, the "empathy allele" seems to be a marker for empathy in general, i.e., cognitive and affective empathy. We still don't have a genetic marker for affective empathy.

    There are different maps of the Hajnal Line, and all of them are arbitrary to some extent., i.e., it's not a sharp line but rather a series of clines. I prefer this map:

    https://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/individualism-map-2-hajnal-line.jpg

    I don't understand why some maps show Finland on the other side of the line.

    Conservatives have higher affective empathy? I would’ve expected the exact opposite: liberals experience more (at least for non-family members).

    The studies in question didn't control for ethnic background. One was conducted in California and the other in England. In both cases, "conservatives" tend to be drawn from a different ethnic mix.

    If we control for ethnic background, I'm not sure whether "conservatives" would show more affective empathy than "liberals." When I go to Vermont, I'm struck by the degree to which Vermonters help the needy. I'm not talking about the government. I'm talking about a spontaneous desire to help, as seen in a multitude of volunteer groups of all sorts. I'm told the same is true for Minnesota. Yet both states are very "liberal."

    “The challenge now is to measure the genetic component of affective empathy not only in different individuals but also in different populations.”

    Why – what for —- culture trumps genetics – why not just build a caring empathic culture?

    As far as the universe is concerned “genetics” is old tech – new tech is brains and culture.

    Are you trying to take us backwards?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    East Asians tend to regard themselves as being more empathic than Westerners, including Northwest Europeans,

    All humans display some affective empathy. In the ancestral state, affective empathy seems to have been confined to relationships within the family, particularly between a mother and her children. Beyond that limited range, affective empathy has to be learned, and even then it's not really "affective" empathy. It's pro-social behavior.

    This is the situation in East Asia. East Asians are taught to show respect for the elderly but this is a learned pro-social behavior. It's not empathy, and I question whether your Korean hosts were using that word.

    I know I’m fighting against the tide here, but the word “empathy” is being misused in this article, as it very often is in general.

    I'm using the terms "affective empathy" and "cognitive empathy" as they have been defined in the literature. These concepts seem to correspond to your use of the terms "empathy" and "sympathy."

    Peter, I recently thought of a good way to test for for affective empathy.

    There is no shortage of psychometric tests for affective empathy. The challenge now is to measure the genetic component of affective empathy not only in different individuals but also in different populations.

    Come to think of it the time frame for selection for the variant is going to be critical for following up PF’s line of speculation.

    The time frame would be critical only if the alleles favoring affective empathy were completely absent in ancestral humans. If we take the deletion variant for ADRA2b as an example, we find it in all human populations. It's just that the incidence varies from one to the next. So you don't have to wait a long time for that mutation to arise. It's already there. You just need a selection pressure to push the incidence in one direction or another.

    My "speculation" is that all humans feel affective empathy to some extent. It was originally confined, however, to immediate family members, particularly to the relationships between a mother and her young children. In some human populations, affective empathy has become extended to a much broader range of social relationships.

    East Asians do not seem more empathetic than Europeans, but differently

    It looks like East Asians have a higher level of cognitive empathy and a lower level of affective empathy.

    If the Chinese, Japanese, Siberians and Israelis have a higher average incidence of the “empathy gene” than the Swiss, Dutch, Canadians and Americans, then the Hajnal Line and the Western European Marriage Pattern don’t really tell us much about the evolution of affective empathy.

    Some of the Israelis but not others. More to the point, the "empathy allele" seems to be a marker for empathy in general, i.e., cognitive and affective empathy. We still don't have a genetic marker for affective empathy.

    There are different maps of the Hajnal Line, and all of them are arbitrary to some extent., i.e., it's not a sharp line but rather a series of clines. I prefer this map:

    https://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/individualism-map-2-hajnal-line.jpg

    I don't understand why some maps show Finland on the other side of the line.

    Conservatives have higher affective empathy? I would’ve expected the exact opposite: liberals experience more (at least for non-family members).

    The studies in question didn't control for ethnic background. One was conducted in California and the other in England. In both cases, "conservatives" tend to be drawn from a different ethnic mix.

    If we control for ethnic background, I'm not sure whether "conservatives" would show more affective empathy than "liberals." When I go to Vermont, I'm struck by the degree to which Vermonters help the needy. I'm not talking about the government. I'm talking about a spontaneous desire to help, as seen in a multitude of volunteer groups of all sorts. I'm told the same is true for Minnesota. Yet both states are very "liberal."

    There is no shortage of psychometric tests for affective empathy. The challenge now is to measure the genetic component of affective empathy not only in different individuals but also in different populations.

    But you haven’t thought of the newsbite affective empathy test. I know – it isn’t your style and I have more respect for you for that – but this is how you get the message across:

    “But I Didn’t Inhale: How our Genes Could Explain the Elusive Contact High”

    Pop science is all about how you spin it. Sure, it’s easy to look down on it, but you can’t discount how immensely influential it is, even in the hands of mediocrities like Bill Nye.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • It should be pointed out, though, that conservative whites do a lot of charity/volunteering through churches and religious organizations.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    The evolution of white conservative is exactly to be like the average east asian, less religious, more intelligent, more literal but also more apathetic with real empathy, because real empathy is not just or specially long term positive attitudes but very short term, help people (and non-human animals) all the time, when they are in need. Conservatives tend to think a lot a long term, because psychological gratification of capitalistic system, while liberals (in my opinion, a very diverse group) tend to think in short term.

    It explain why almost of brazilian leftists believe that ''bolsa família'' (money distribution for low classes) is a good way to reduce extreme poverty, despising the grotesque show of corruption of major''socialist'' brazilian party.

    Brazilian leftist mentality is ''all brazilian parties are corrupted, but ''worker party'' at least has achieved reduce extreme poverty'' while typical brazilian (conservative) mentality about this specific political context is that '' poor people aren't hard worker''.

    Leftists are naive to perceive that ''Worker party'' is not doing it just because by their bleeding hearts but to create a long term dependent and stupid class, the archetypical ''proles''. Dependence is slavery.
    , @Jay
    Data on charitable contributions as a percentage of income show that people in conservative states (presumably conservatives) are more generous than people in liberal states (presumably liberals). For 2014, the states with the highest percentage donation/income were Utah, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee and Georgia; the states with the lowest percentage donation/income were Rhode Island, New Jersey, Vermont, Maine and New Hampshire. Much of the conservative state giving is to churches, but much of churches' funds are spent on charity to the needy.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    East Asians tend to regard themselves as being more empathic than Westerners, including Northwest Europeans,

    All humans display some affective empathy. In the ancestral state, affective empathy seems to have been confined to relationships within the family, particularly between a mother and her children. Beyond that limited range, affective empathy has to be learned, and even then it's not really "affective" empathy. It's pro-social behavior.

    This is the situation in East Asia. East Asians are taught to show respect for the elderly but this is a learned pro-social behavior. It's not empathy, and I question whether your Korean hosts were using that word.

    I know I’m fighting against the tide here, but the word “empathy” is being misused in this article, as it very often is in general.

    I'm using the terms "affective empathy" and "cognitive empathy" as they have been defined in the literature. These concepts seem to correspond to your use of the terms "empathy" and "sympathy."

    Peter, I recently thought of a good way to test for for affective empathy.

    There is no shortage of psychometric tests for affective empathy. The challenge now is to measure the genetic component of affective empathy not only in different individuals but also in different populations.

    Come to think of it the time frame for selection for the variant is going to be critical for following up PF’s line of speculation.

    The time frame would be critical only if the alleles favoring affective empathy were completely absent in ancestral humans. If we take the deletion variant for ADRA2b as an example, we find it in all human populations. It's just that the incidence varies from one to the next. So you don't have to wait a long time for that mutation to arise. It's already there. You just need a selection pressure to push the incidence in one direction or another.

    My "speculation" is that all humans feel affective empathy to some extent. It was originally confined, however, to immediate family members, particularly to the relationships between a mother and her young children. In some human populations, affective empathy has become extended to a much broader range of social relationships.

    East Asians do not seem more empathetic than Europeans, but differently

    It looks like East Asians have a higher level of cognitive empathy and a lower level of affective empathy.

    If the Chinese, Japanese, Siberians and Israelis have a higher average incidence of the “empathy gene” than the Swiss, Dutch, Canadians and Americans, then the Hajnal Line and the Western European Marriage Pattern don’t really tell us much about the evolution of affective empathy.

    Some of the Israelis but not others. More to the point, the "empathy allele" seems to be a marker for empathy in general, i.e., cognitive and affective empathy. We still don't have a genetic marker for affective empathy.

    There are different maps of the Hajnal Line, and all of them are arbitrary to some extent., i.e., it's not a sharp line but rather a series of clines. I prefer this map:

    https://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/individualism-map-2-hajnal-line.jpg

    I don't understand why some maps show Finland on the other side of the line.

    Conservatives have higher affective empathy? I would’ve expected the exact opposite: liberals experience more (at least for non-family members).

    The studies in question didn't control for ethnic background. One was conducted in California and the other in England. In both cases, "conservatives" tend to be drawn from a different ethnic mix.

    If we control for ethnic background, I'm not sure whether "conservatives" would show more affective empathy than "liberals." When I go to Vermont, I'm struck by the degree to which Vermonters help the needy. I'm not talking about the government. I'm talking about a spontaneous desire to help, as seen in a multitude of volunteer groups of all sorts. I'm told the same is true for Minnesota. Yet both states are very "liberal."

    If we control for ethnic background, I’m not sure whether “conservatives” would show more affective empathy than “liberals.” When I go to Vermont, I’m struck by the degree to which Vermonters help the needy. I’m not talking about the government. I’m talking about a spontaneous desire to help, as seen in a multitude of volunteer groups of all sorts. I’m told the same is true for Minnesota. Yet both states are very “liberal.”

    What I’ve noticed when comparing both conservatives whites and East Asians to liberal whites is that the former group (conservative whites and East Asians) tend to be more concerned with politeness, courtesy, and orderliness, while liberal whites tend to be more concerned with more abstract concerns like social justice and community volunteering. I’m sure others have noticed this if they’ve been around these three groups. Hasn’t the psychologist Jonathan Haidt delved into this in his research?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    East Asians tend to regard themselves as being more empathic than Westerners, including Northwest Europeans, the Westerners they most often encounter, in much the same way that Westerners tend to regard themselves as being more empathic than East Asians.

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2015/06/162_180778.html

    My church friend, Rachel, who has lived in Korea for almost six years told me that Koreans don't express their thoughts clearly sometimes. Consequently, she doesn't know evidently what they want. For instance, her husband, Jonathan, asked me to go out for dinner with church members several days ago.

    Although I had my own schedule that day, I had to accept his proposal because I didn't want to disappoint and hurt him. Hence, I can say that Koreans are emotional and considerate. We tend to sacrifice our time to help our friends. However, my observations tell me that westerners are individualistic. They prefer keeping their own space and never do what they don't want to do.
     
    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2015/07/162_183210.html

    In Korea, seniors generally pay the money for juniors when they go out together for dinner and go to the bar to hang out. I definitely say that Koreans have an immaculate virtue, which foreigners cannot think of. A senior feels the responsibility for taking care of juniors by treating them to some food using his money. The juniors meanwhile feel happier to know that their seniors are willing to care them. Later, they will show more sincerity to their seniors. I think the unilateral trade from the seniors is the steppingstone to progressing favorable friendship with the juniors.

    In a nutshell, Koreans are so generous and benevolent. I wonder if this character originates from a "collective society," in which people prefer "we" to "I."

    I think that Koreans are more polite and respectful to the old. I also think foreigners should learn from Koreans about how they treat the aged with courtesy. A British friend of mine alleged that he could punch an elderly person if he is lazy and an alcoholic, while I said that we should embrace them whatever they do.

    Westerners are even reluctant to give special favor for an old lady. For instance, when I was in Brisbane, Australia, I saw a vacant seat on the bus stop. As I was a conventional Korean man, I was supposed to yield it to the old lady who stood right next to me. At the moment I found a young lady staring at me so unkindly and sharply. She seemed to be extremely upset with me. She wanted to take the seat for herself. She never cared about the person who was at least 70.

    I think that Westerners hardly regard the elderly as important and trustworthy. Worse, they make light of them, because they are physically weak. What I am saying is that ''All men are equal" does not make sense in this regard. We should be more attentive to the old who have devoted their life to the community. They are worthy of being loved and revered whatever they are.

    On the other hand, I saw a Canadian friend in a bus who has lived in Gwangju for over 10 years. He was willing to give his seat to the old lady after finding that she was standing right behind his seat. I thought that Korean society has taught him how to respect the old and that a desirable tradition in Korea has affected him in a more positive way.
     

    “I think that Koreans are more polite and respectful to the old. I also think foreigners should learn from Koreans about how they treat the aged with courtesy.”

    The idea that genetics rules all of human behavior is bogus. God gave us brains that takes in information —- we can use that information in a logical fashion and create knowledge. That knowledge can override our biological instincts. The process leads to philosophical cultures.

    Korean respect for the aged is because of its culture – not its genetics – Koreans are Confucians – Confucian philosophy venerates the old and one’s ancestors.

    When a Korean immigrates to America his successive generations lose his Confucian philosophy. They adapted to Western philosophy. Hmm – how can this be – two thousand years of genetics are changed in two generations. Of course, it was never genetics in the first place.

    Animals have empathy – 98% of everybody has some capacity to be empathic. It is ones culture that determines how it is expressed and to what degree.

    Read More
    • Replies: @PandaAtWar

    "Korean respect for the aged is because of its culture – not its genetics – Koreans are Confucians – Confucian philosophy venerates the old and one’s ancestors."

     

    What's your concrete proof that it's not in genetics?

    It's all too easy to claim that is "only culture". A culture doesn't grow and maintain itself in empty air, but is mostly, and firmly, supported via the genetics underneath - so called "gene-culture co-evolution", else why such a Confucius culture only exists within the East Asians, but not randomly in Romania or Morrocco or somewhere, eh?

    "When a Korean immigrates to America his successive generations lose his Confucian philosophy. They adapted to Western philosophy"
     
    Again, that's a very bold claim. They may dress, speak and act like, or even more than, their Western counterparts in the West on the surface, perhaps due to the social pressure of "blending-in". Panda doubts that they have lost their Confucian philosophy while at their homes.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “Nonetheless, too much affective empathy may lead to an overload where one ends up helping others to the detriment of oneself and one’s family and kin.”

    One could almost put it the other way about: when it doesn’t really matter, people let go of their affective empathy and start extending it to everyone and everything. The average girl nowadays is all upset about animals farmed for meat but nothing like that could have arisen when people were poor farmers. Vermonters nowadays don’t have to deal with Indians on the warpath, but when that was a concern the Vermonters would have been offering big money for scalps of Indians, any Indians (which they in fact did). That said, it is difficult to imagine an Audie Murphy or a Chris Kyle from Vermont; they enjoyed hunting as boys and killing humans as adults. Re Finns, you would never get a Danish Simo Häyhä.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-imprinted-brain/201502/hyper-mentalism-hyper-empathizing-and-supernatural-belief

    The results imply that individuals with high self-reported empathy and interest in people, coupled with poor self-reported understanding of physical causality and low interest in technical, motor, abstract, and organizable systems, had more supernatural beliefs than others.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    East Asians tend to regard themselves as being more empathic than Westerners, including Northwest Europeans,

    All humans display some affective empathy. In the ancestral state, affective empathy seems to have been confined to relationships within the family, particularly between a mother and her children. Beyond that limited range, affective empathy has to be learned, and even then it's not really "affective" empathy. It's pro-social behavior.

    This is the situation in East Asia. East Asians are taught to show respect for the elderly but this is a learned pro-social behavior. It's not empathy, and I question whether your Korean hosts were using that word.

    I know I’m fighting against the tide here, but the word “empathy” is being misused in this article, as it very often is in general.

    I'm using the terms "affective empathy" and "cognitive empathy" as they have been defined in the literature. These concepts seem to correspond to your use of the terms "empathy" and "sympathy."

    Peter, I recently thought of a good way to test for for affective empathy.

    There is no shortage of psychometric tests for affective empathy. The challenge now is to measure the genetic component of affective empathy not only in different individuals but also in different populations.

    Come to think of it the time frame for selection for the variant is going to be critical for following up PF’s line of speculation.

    The time frame would be critical only if the alleles favoring affective empathy were completely absent in ancestral humans. If we take the deletion variant for ADRA2b as an example, we find it in all human populations. It's just that the incidence varies from one to the next. So you don't have to wait a long time for that mutation to arise. It's already there. You just need a selection pressure to push the incidence in one direction or another.

    My "speculation" is that all humans feel affective empathy to some extent. It was originally confined, however, to immediate family members, particularly to the relationships between a mother and her young children. In some human populations, affective empathy has become extended to a much broader range of social relationships.

    East Asians do not seem more empathetic than Europeans, but differently

    It looks like East Asians have a higher level of cognitive empathy and a lower level of affective empathy.

    If the Chinese, Japanese, Siberians and Israelis have a higher average incidence of the “empathy gene” than the Swiss, Dutch, Canadians and Americans, then the Hajnal Line and the Western European Marriage Pattern don’t really tell us much about the evolution of affective empathy.

    Some of the Israelis but not others. More to the point, the "empathy allele" seems to be a marker for empathy in general, i.e., cognitive and affective empathy. We still don't have a genetic marker for affective empathy.

    There are different maps of the Hajnal Line, and all of them are arbitrary to some extent., i.e., it's not a sharp line but rather a series of clines. I prefer this map:

    https://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/individualism-map-2-hajnal-line.jpg

    I don't understand why some maps show Finland on the other side of the line.

    Conservatives have higher affective empathy? I would’ve expected the exact opposite: liberals experience more (at least for non-family members).

    The studies in question didn't control for ethnic background. One was conducted in California and the other in England. In both cases, "conservatives" tend to be drawn from a different ethnic mix.

    If we control for ethnic background, I'm not sure whether "conservatives" would show more affective empathy than "liberals." When I go to Vermont, I'm struck by the degree to which Vermonters help the needy. I'm not talking about the government. I'm talking about a spontaneous desire to help, as seen in a multitude of volunteer groups of all sorts. I'm told the same is true for Minnesota. Yet both states are very "liberal."

    ” These concepts seem to correspond to your use of the terms “empathy” and “sympathy.””

    Could we say that empathy is a peception, an ability to perceive, whereas sympathy is an expression, a willingness to express?

    I don’t quite understand why hbd*chick prefers an approximate line to the detailed line http://demoblography.blogspot.co.uk/2008/01/hajnal-line.html because the differences seem significant :-

    - round Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania rather than through the middle of them
    - through Slovakia and Hungary rather than through Czech and Austria
    - across the top of Croatia (Slovenia inside) rather than across the top of Italy (Slovenia outside)

    (that’s if I’ve compared correctly).

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • My idea about non-kin empathy would that people with less genetic similarity than their parents and relatives, in personality and cognition, specially, will be more predisposed to be more universalistic-goal.

    More mutational load, less exclusive kin-”empathy”.

    Liberals seems have more mutations than conservatives, tend to look differently than their parents or than ethno-national phenotype. American conservatives tend to be more anglo while liberals tend to be less Wasp (urban liberal versus countryland conservative).

    Less endogamy but without excess of mixing race, tend to produce the biological individual, self-sense of individuality.

    Liberals tend to born by moderate conservative families and tend to be like ”the black sheep” of family.

    http://www.psmag.com/books-and-culture/first-born-children-likely-grow-conservatives-81925

    It also explain more creativity ability among liberals than conservatives (although I believe that the most creative tend to be independent thinkers)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • East Asians tend to regard themselves as being more empathic than Westerners, including Northwest Europeans,

    All humans display some affective empathy. In the ancestral state, affective empathy seems to have been confined to relationships within the family, particularly between a mother and her children. Beyond that limited range, affective empathy has to be learned, and even then it’s not really “affective” empathy. It’s pro-social behavior.

    This is the situation in East Asia. East Asians are taught to show respect for the elderly but this is a learned pro-social behavior. It’s not empathy, and I question whether your Korean hosts were using that word.

    I know I’m fighting against the tide here, but the word “empathy” is being misused in this article, as it very often is in general.

    I’m using the terms “affective empathy” and “cognitive empathy” as they have been defined in the literature. These concepts seem to correspond to your use of the terms “empathy” and “sympathy.”

    Peter, I recently thought of a good way to test for for affective empathy.

    There is no shortage of psychometric tests for affective empathy. The challenge now is to measure the genetic component of affective empathy not only in different individuals but also in different populations.

    Come to think of it the time frame for selection for the variant is going to be critical for following up PF’s line of speculation.

    The time frame would be critical only if the alleles favoring affective empathy were completely absent in ancestral humans. If we take the deletion variant for ADRA2b as an example, we find it in all human populations. It’s just that the incidence varies from one to the next. So you don’t have to wait a long time for that mutation to arise. It’s already there. You just need a selection pressure to push the incidence in one direction or another.

    My “speculation” is that all humans feel affective empathy to some extent. It was originally confined, however, to immediate family members, particularly to the relationships between a mother and her young children. In some human populations, affective empathy has become extended to a much broader range of social relationships.

    East Asians do not seem more empathetic than Europeans, but differently

    It looks like East Asians have a higher level of cognitive empathy and a lower level of affective empathy.

    If the Chinese, Japanese, Siberians and Israelis have a higher average incidence of the “empathy gene” than the Swiss, Dutch, Canadians and Americans, then the Hajnal Line and the Western European Marriage Pattern don’t really tell us much about the evolution of affective empathy.

    Some of the Israelis but not others. More to the point, the “empathy allele” seems to be a marker for empathy in general, i.e., cognitive and affective empathy. We still don’t have a genetic marker for affective empathy.

    There are different maps of the Hajnal Line, and all of them are arbitrary to some extent., i.e., it’s not a sharp line but rather a series of clines. I prefer this map:

    I don’t understand why some maps show Finland on the other side of the line.

    Conservatives have higher affective empathy? I would’ve expected the exact opposite: liberals experience more (at least for non-family members).

    The studies in question didn’t control for ethnic background. One was conducted in California and the other in England. In both cases, “conservatives” tend to be drawn from a different ethnic mix.

    If we control for ethnic background, I’m not sure whether “conservatives” would show more affective empathy than “liberals.” When I go to Vermont, I’m struck by the degree to which Vermonters help the needy. I’m not talking about the government. I’m talking about a spontaneous desire to help, as seen in a multitude of volunteer groups of all sorts. I’m told the same is true for Minnesota. Yet both states are very “liberal.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @helena
    " These concepts seem to correspond to your use of the terms “empathy” and “sympathy.”"

    Could we say that empathy is a peception, an ability to perceive, whereas sympathy is an expression, a willingness to express?

    I don't quite understand why hbd*chick prefers an approximate line to the detailed line http://demoblography.blogspot.co.uk/2008/01/hajnal-line.html because the differences seem significant :-

    - round Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania rather than through the middle of them
    - through Slovakia and Hungary rather than through Czech and Austria
    - across the top of Croatia (Slovenia inside) rather than across the top of Italy (Slovenia outside)

    (that's if I've compared correctly).

    , @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    If we control for ethnic background, I’m not sure whether “conservatives” would show more affective empathy than “liberals.” When I go to Vermont, I’m struck by the degree to which Vermonters help the needy. I’m not talking about the government. I’m talking about a spontaneous desire to help, as seen in a multitude of volunteer groups of all sorts. I’m told the same is true for Minnesota. Yet both states are very “liberal.”

    What I've noticed when comparing both conservatives whites and East Asians to liberal whites is that the former group (conservative whites and East Asians) tend to be more concerned with politeness, courtesy, and orderliness, while liberal whites tend to be more concerned with more abstract concerns like social justice and community volunteering. I'm sure others have noticed this if they've been around these three groups. Hasn't the psychologist Jonathan Haidt delved into this in his research?
    , @Bill P

    There is no shortage of psychometric tests for affective empathy. The challenge now is to measure the genetic component of affective empathy not only in different individuals but also in different populations.
     
    But you haven't thought of the newsbite affective empathy test. I know - it isn't your style and I have more respect for you for that - but this is how you get the message across:

    "But I Didn't Inhale: How our Genes Could Explain the Elusive Contact High"

    Pop science is all about how you spin it. Sure, it's easy to look down on it, but you can't discount how immensely influential it is, even in the hands of mediocrities like Bill Nye.
    , @Art
    "The challenge now is to measure the genetic component of affective empathy not only in different individuals but also in different populations."

    Why - what for ---- culture trumps genetics - why not just build a caring empathic culture?

    As far as the universe is concerned "genetics" is old tech - new tech is brains and culture.

    Are you trying to take us backwards?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @szopen
    Austria is founded on previous Slavic lands and its "Slavic" character was often commented upon by others; today, also genetically Austria shares a lot with Slavic people. I'd say you are trying to include Austria not because of any scientific reason, but simply because you WANT reality to conform to your petty theory.

    Not to mention Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia are not orthodox countries; historically there were times when they were either beer or wine cultures; and nowadays those countries are again more and more beer-oriented.

    Time for personal anecdote: Frankly from my interaction wih English, French, German and Slavic, I always had the best time spent together with other Slavs AND Germans (to my surprise, because in my youth my stereotype of Germans were arrogant, cruel, boring and uncreative). I often couldn't find common tongue with English and French, but in every conference I went to I had fun time with Germans.

    I included Austria with the other German-speaking countries because … wait for it … it’s a German-speaking country. That’s the “scientific reason” behind my “petty theory.”

    I never said all Eastern European countries are Orthodox or prefer vodka, but most are and do. The drink of choice in the countries you named are:

    Poland: beer
    Czech: beer
    Slovakia: spirits
    Slovenia: wine
    Croatia: wine

    http://chartsbin.com/view/1017

    Read More
    • Replies: @szopen
    Sure, it's German speaking, but genetically it has a lot of Slavic admixture. Meaning you can't assume it's all innate.
    , @szopen
    One more thing:

    List of Slavic countries

    West Slavic:
    Poland, Czech, Slovakia (not a single orthodox, 2 not vodka)
    Southern Slavic:

    SLovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Macedonia, BUlgaria (1 Muslim, 3 orthodox, 2 catholic, only 1 Vodka)

    Eastern Slavic:
    Belarus, Ukraine, RUssia (orthodox, vodka)

    So you have 12 Slavic countries (not counting small MOntenegro), of which 6 is orthodox and 5 are VODKA. THis is not "MOST".

    If you are going by the population, then it's different for one reason: Russia, which alone counts for almost half of Slavic population. Once exlude Russiam, by population again you won't have "MOST" Slavs.

    In summary, you took "Russia" for granted as standing for "Most slavic countries". This is very annoying for most of us non-Russians.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @jeppo
    If the Chinese, Japanese, Siberians and Israelis have a higher average incidence of the "empathy gene" than the Swiss, Dutch, Canadians and Americans, then the Hajnal Line and the Western European Marriage Pattern don't really tell us much about the evolution of affective empathy.

    On the other hand, in the real world Northwest Europeans seem to be far more empathetic on average than East Asians or Jews. The former suffer from a pathological altruism--particularly with regards to outgroup immigration--that seems to be mostly absent from the latter, so maybe the deletion variant of the ADRA2b gene isn't the most reliable marker of an empathetic mindset.

    The Hajnal Line divides Europe into a Roman-German west and a mostly-Slavic east, based on lower and later marriage rates and lower fertility in the west. This pattern probably started in the Frankish heartland between the Rhine and the Seine along with manorialism, then spread to areas conquered by the Carolingians (France, the Low Countries, most of Germany, Northern Italy), and then finally to neighbouring areas under Frankish influence (Northern Iberia, Britain, Scandinavia, the eastern German lands).

    The parts of Eastern Europe west of the Hajnal Line (Czech Republic, western and northern Poland, coastal areas of the Baltic States) were heavily Germanized from the Middle Ages right up until 1945. The parts of Western Europe with higher and earlier marriage rates and higher fertility, were generally the ethnic outliers: non-Indo-European Finland, Celtic Ireland, and the areas of Southern Iberia and Southern Italy that were long under Moorish and/or Byzantine rule.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Hajnal_line.JPG

    So the Western European Marriage Pattern was essentially an ethnic marker: from a Frankish core it expanded to include all the Latin and Germanic lands, but no further. Did this pattern lead to the traits (individualism, guilt proneness, empathy, trustworthiness) that we find in Northwest Europeans today? Maybe, partially. But I think there are three main problems in using the Hajnal Line to define the boundaries of Northwest Europe:

    1) The exclusion of Austria

    For some reason the Hajnal Line is shown as beginning well to the south of Trieste, then jogging to the northwest before turning northeast towards St Petersburg. By doing this it excludes the bulk of Austria, including Vienna. Are we to believe that Vienna--for many centuries the largest city as well as the political, economic and cultural hub of Germany--had a completely different pattern of marriage and fertility than all the other German-speaking lands?

    That seems very unlikely, to say the least. But even if were true at some point in the Middle Ages, Austria today clearly clusters with the rest of Northwest Europe in every measurement you could possibly name. Austria is just as 'German' as Bavaria or Saxony, so if it is excluded from Northwest Europe because it (allegedly) falls to the east of the Hajnal Line, then you might as well exclude Germany, and Switzerland too. And that makes no sense at all.

    2) The exclusion of Finland and Ireland

    I don't dispute that these two countries did in fact have historically different patterns of marriage and fertility from the rest of Northwest Europe. But I would argue that both countries have so thoroughly assimilated to Scandinavian and Anglo-American cultural norms respectively, that their falling outside the Hajnal Line is basically irrelevant today, and that both should definitely be considered integral parts of Northwest Europe.

    Finland was under Swedish rule for nearly 700 years, and even when it was transferred to Russian control Swedish remained the sole official language of Finland for the next 50 years. Swedish is still a co-official language in Finland, and Swedish-Finns have played a hugely outsized role in all aspects of Finnish life: politics, the military, industry, trade, art, architecture, literature, science, music, and on and on, arguably even more so than Finnish-Finns have. And Finland since independence, especially since 1945, has aligned itself ever more closely with the rest of Scandinavia, so much so that it has at least partially subsumed its sovereignty to the Nordic Council, along with Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Iceland.

    Ireland has been partially or wholly under British control from 1169 AD right up to the present day. There has been so much mixing between British and Irish that the British Isles as a whole are generally considered to be a single genetic cluster. When Southern Ireland achieved independence after WWI, they tried to assert their Celticness and Catholicism to differentiate themselves from the Brits. But linguistically this has been a total failure: 100% of the Irish speak English, and Gaelic has been reduced to a folkloric language, almost completely unused in daily life. Religiously, this worked for a while, but this year's gay marriage referendum (62% said yes) put the final nail in the coffin of Ireland's once-rigid Catholicism. And since the rise of the 'Celtic Tiger' beginning in the 1980s, Ireland has been basically indistinguishable economically, politically and culturally with the rest of the English-speaking world.

    3) The inclusion of the Latin nations

    France and most of Italy, Spain and Portugal fall within the Hajnal Line. But these four nations don't really cluster with Northwest Europe in terms of language, religion, culture, politics, economics, or even basic geography. Instead, I believe they form their own distinct Mediterranean-Latin-Catholic sub-civilization in Southwest Europe, as opposed to the Nordic-Germanic-Protestant leitkultur in the Northwest and the Alpine-Slavic-Orthodox one in the East.

    The division of Europe into three parts is apparent in something as basic (and culturally important) as each region's tipple of choice: in the Northwest it's beer, in the Southwest wine, and in the East vodka. We can see the same pattern in any international measurement of living standards, with the Northwest European nations all clustering near the top, followed by the Southwest and then the East. Some of the East's lagging is no doubt due to the lingering after effects of communism, but I think the same Northwest-Southwest-East order ranking can be found in the psychological traits listed above (individualism, guilt proneness, empathy and trustworthiness).

    So basically what I'm arguing is that the Hajnal Line shouldn't be used to define Northwest Europe. Instead, a linguistic definition makes a lot more sense. The 18 Germanic nations of Europe and their overseas offshoots, including Austria, Finland and Ireland, but not France, Italy, Spain or Portugal, make up the Northwest European sub-civilization.

    English: UK, Ireland, US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand
    German: Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein
    Scandinavian: Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland
    Dutch: Netherlands, Belgium

    Austria is founded on previous Slavic lands and its “Slavic” character was often commented upon by others; today, also genetically Austria shares a lot with Slavic people. I’d say you are trying to include Austria not because of any scientific reason, but simply because you WANT reality to conform to your petty theory.

    Not to mention Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia are not orthodox countries; historically there were times when they were either beer or wine cultures; and nowadays those countries are again more and more beer-oriented.

    Time for personal anecdote: Frankly from my interaction wih English, French, German and Slavic, I always had the best time spent together with other Slavs AND Germans (to my surprise, because in my youth my stereotype of Germans were arrogant, cruel, boring and uncreative). I often couldn’t find common tongue with English and French, but in every conference I went to I had fun time with Germans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jeppo
    I included Austria with the other German-speaking countries because ... wait for it ... it's a German-speaking country. That's the "scientific reason" behind my "petty theory."

    I never said all Eastern European countries are Orthodox or prefer vodka, but most are and do. The drink of choice in the countries you named are:

    Poland: beer
    Czech: beer
    Slovakia: spirits
    Slovenia: wine
    Croatia: wine

    http://chartsbin.com/view/1017
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “In both cases, my hunch is that “conservatives” are disproportionately drawn from populations that have, on average, a higher capacity for affective empathy” [...] “The third one had two groups of participants: Israeli Holocaust survivors and a control group of European-born Israelis who had emigrated with their parents to the British Mandate of Palestine. The incidence was 48% in the Holocaust survivors and 63% in the controls (Fridman et al., 2012).”

    Interesting, that might explain the difference between wingnut Jewish Israel politicians and moonbat Western Jewish radicals.

    Remember that dopamine receptor study “a culture/gene interaction in the carriers, whereas the noncarriers show no difference, regardless of ethnic originn:” The minority with high dopamine variants seems to be responsible for all the peculiarities of a population. The high dopamine increases the effect of reward seeing as it is associated with alcoholism, gambling, sexual infidelity and migration (mixed ancestry). The same adaptation increases the extent to which people internalise their culture. That has to be susceptibility to reward orientation (approbation). The adaptation we know about that is associated with being attuned to others and responsible for major cultural differences works by sensitizing us to others approbation, for good or ill.

    Two Paths:

    They argued that although a short allele of 5-HTTLPR is linked to anxiety and depression, especially under traumatic life conditions (Caspi et al., 2003), this genetic risk might be mitigated by cultural collectivism, which involves more caring social relations and support networks. Cultural collectivism might therefore “buffer genetically susceptible populations from increased prevalence of affective disorders” (p. 529), which in turn might lead to a relatively high prevalence of the short allele of 5-HTTLPR. (Kitayama et al., 2014)

    This post:

    For instance, it has been found that people with at least one copy of the short allele of 5-HTTLPR tend to be too sensitive to negative emotional information. This effect seems to be attenuated by the deletion variant of ADRA2b, which either keeps one from dwelling too much on a bad emotional experience or helps one anticipate and prevent repeat experiences (Naudts et al., 2012).

    As I read this, the ADRA2 deletion stops people from being depressed by making them susceptible to social support (ie cultural collectivism).

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bill P
    Peter, I recently thought of a good way to test for for affective empathy. I wrote something on Steve's blog about an incident when a black ex-con tried to have his way with me, and described how weird I felt after he took a hit of crack in front of me. I felt physically very unsettled, despite the fact that I couldn't have inhaled more than an inconsequential fraction of the cocaine he did.

    So I described it as a "contact high," which is a well-known, if ambiguous, phenomenon. One reader mistook this as suggesting that I was smoking crack, too, but I surmised that he simply didn't understand the concept of a contact high. In fact, I've had contact highs on several occasions, not all of which involved fight or flight type scenarios with dangerous people.

    It occurred to me that the elusive contact high is actually affective empathy in action. People who feel psychologically different around those who are under the influence of drugs probably have affective empathy. It makes perfect sense.

    So if you want to test for affective empathy, it seems to me that testing those around psychotropically altered individuals for a similar response would clue you in to who has it and who doesn't.

    Perhaps this could put to rest the notion that affective empathy is a "fuzzy" trait. Personally, I think it might be a sexual trait. If, for example, you can "feel" when a woman's in the mood, it gives you a much better idea of when you've got a shot. Maybe it evolved as a mutual arousal mechanism, which puts Nordic women's "open" behavior in perspective (i.e. they expect you to know when they're in the mood and when they aren't without relying on traditional cues like clothing).

    I was thinking along the same two lines as I was reading this, and your experience with the black guy evokes much. Eight years year-round basketball and over three years incarcerated, we’ve had plenty close contact. I was going to say a contact high depends on them more than you entirely, them high you sober, and what I think about blacks is that they have more spirit, defined as something that can be exuded and received, so I’m no wise surprised you got high. (I’m a literary guy, not science, but whats vague is not nothing, and what can’t be measured can still be felt, so forgive my “spirit” and trust my individual empiricism.) IQ Tests are perfectly fair to blacks; I don’t believe for a second these emotional tests can be, though I know not how they are administered at all. But I know a lot of gangster rap, and I know what fisticuffs from Africa feel like, and I’ve known three salt u da earth women well enough, and a bunch of other stuff, and their emotions are just better called spirit. To say that they have precious little affective empathy means nothing. Functionally speaking, their societies reflect the fact that spirit has a spectrum that spans a kind of empathy to raw aggression, I would say. Peter Frost is brilliant, but this paper is perfectly innocent racism qua ignorance. I take the r word back but you know what I mean.

    Gotta run but the second thing was I believe its got to be a sex trait too.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @jeppo
    If the Chinese, Japanese, Siberians and Israelis have a higher average incidence of the "empathy gene" than the Swiss, Dutch, Canadians and Americans, then the Hajnal Line and the Western European Marriage Pattern don't really tell us much about the evolution of affective empathy.

    On the other hand, in the real world Northwest Europeans seem to be far more empathetic on average than East Asians or Jews. The former suffer from a pathological altruism--particularly with regards to outgroup immigration--that seems to be mostly absent from the latter, so maybe the deletion variant of the ADRA2b gene isn't the most reliable marker of an empathetic mindset.

    The Hajnal Line divides Europe into a Roman-German west and a mostly-Slavic east, based on lower and later marriage rates and lower fertility in the west. This pattern probably started in the Frankish heartland between the Rhine and the Seine along with manorialism, then spread to areas conquered by the Carolingians (France, the Low Countries, most of Germany, Northern Italy), and then finally to neighbouring areas under Frankish influence (Northern Iberia, Britain, Scandinavia, the eastern German lands).

    The parts of Eastern Europe west of the Hajnal Line (Czech Republic, western and northern Poland, coastal areas of the Baltic States) were heavily Germanized from the Middle Ages right up until 1945. The parts of Western Europe with higher and earlier marriage rates and higher fertility, were generally the ethnic outliers: non-Indo-European Finland, Celtic Ireland, and the areas of Southern Iberia and Southern Italy that were long under Moorish and/or Byzantine rule.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Hajnal_line.JPG

    So the Western European Marriage Pattern was essentially an ethnic marker: from a Frankish core it expanded to include all the Latin and Germanic lands, but no further. Did this pattern lead to the traits (individualism, guilt proneness, empathy, trustworthiness) that we find in Northwest Europeans today? Maybe, partially. But I think there are three main problems in using the Hajnal Line to define the boundaries of Northwest Europe:

    1) The exclusion of Austria

    For some reason the Hajnal Line is shown as beginning well to the south of Trieste, then jogging to the northwest before turning northeast towards St Petersburg. By doing this it excludes the bulk of Austria, including Vienna. Are we to believe that Vienna--for many centuries the largest city as well as the political, economic and cultural hub of Germany--had a completely different pattern of marriage and fertility than all the other German-speaking lands?

    That seems very unlikely, to say the least. But even if were true at some point in the Middle Ages, Austria today clearly clusters with the rest of Northwest Europe in every measurement you could possibly name. Austria is just as 'German' as Bavaria or Saxony, so if it is excluded from Northwest Europe because it (allegedly) falls to the east of the Hajnal Line, then you might as well exclude Germany, and Switzerland too. And that makes no sense at all.

    2) The exclusion of Finland and Ireland

    I don't dispute that these two countries did in fact have historically different patterns of marriage and fertility from the rest of Northwest Europe. But I would argue that both countries have so thoroughly assimilated to Scandinavian and Anglo-American cultural norms respectively, that their falling outside the Hajnal Line is basically irrelevant today, and that both should definitely be considered integral parts of Northwest Europe.

    Finland was under Swedish rule for nearly 700 years, and even when it was transferred to Russian control Swedish remained the sole official language of Finland for the next 50 years. Swedish is still a co-official language in Finland, and Swedish-Finns have played a hugely outsized role in all aspects of Finnish life: politics, the military, industry, trade, art, architecture, literature, science, music, and on and on, arguably even more so than Finnish-Finns have. And Finland since independence, especially since 1945, has aligned itself ever more closely with the rest of Scandinavia, so much so that it has at least partially subsumed its sovereignty to the Nordic Council, along with Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Iceland.

    Ireland has been partially or wholly under British control from 1169 AD right up to the present day. There has been so much mixing between British and Irish that the British Isles as a whole are generally considered to be a single genetic cluster. When Southern Ireland achieved independence after WWI, they tried to assert their Celticness and Catholicism to differentiate themselves from the Brits. But linguistically this has been a total failure: 100% of the Irish speak English, and Gaelic has been reduced to a folkloric language, almost completely unused in daily life. Religiously, this worked for a while, but this year's gay marriage referendum (62% said yes) put the final nail in the coffin of Ireland's once-rigid Catholicism. And since the rise of the 'Celtic Tiger' beginning in the 1980s, Ireland has been basically indistinguishable economically, politically and culturally with the rest of the English-speaking world.

    3) The inclusion of the Latin nations

    France and most of Italy, Spain and Portugal fall within the Hajnal Line. But these four nations don't really cluster with Northwest Europe in terms of language, religion, culture, politics, economics, or even basic geography. Instead, I believe they form their own distinct Mediterranean-Latin-Catholic sub-civilization in Southwest Europe, as opposed to the Nordic-Germanic-Protestant leitkultur in the Northwest and the Alpine-Slavic-Orthodox one in the East.

    The division of Europe into three parts is apparent in something as basic (and culturally important) as each region's tipple of choice: in the Northwest it's beer, in the Southwest wine, and in the East vodka. We can see the same pattern in any international measurement of living standards, with the Northwest European nations all clustering near the top, followed by the Southwest and then the East. Some of the East's lagging is no doubt due to the lingering after effects of communism, but I think the same Northwest-Southwest-East order ranking can be found in the psychological traits listed above (individualism, guilt proneness, empathy and trustworthiness).

    So basically what I'm arguing is that the Hajnal Line shouldn't be used to define Northwest Europe. Instead, a linguistic definition makes a lot more sense. The 18 Germanic nations of Europe and their overseas offshoots, including Austria, Finland and Ireland, but not France, Italy, Spain or Portugal, make up the Northwest European sub-civilization.

    English: UK, Ireland, US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand
    German: Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein
    Scandinavian: Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland
    Dutch: Netherlands, Belgium

    It would be very interesting to see if there was any significant correlation between those three groups and the prevalence of any possibly important alleles.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • This isn’t my field so I’m only competent to observe but it seems that the marker under study is not strongly sex-linked.

    I have spent a lot of time in East Asia and my conclusion is that the women have considerable “cognitive empathy” whereas the males do not. Certainly one would anticipate that cognitive empathy on the part of women (but not of men) in a sexist society would be a survival imperative whereas, perhaps,”affective empathy” would be a waste of time! East Asian women frequently complain that their men lack “sensitivity to their feelings” and are often drawn to Westerners: particularly northwest Europeans – your Hajnal Liners – who, they claim, have more “understanding”. Nevertheless, affective empathy doesn’t appear to be strongly marked in East Asian women.

    There is a general tendency among East Asians to bottle up emotions – it’s unseemly to display them: this has given rise, I suppose, to the Western stereotype of oriental inscrutability.

    Read More
    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Hobbesian Meliorist
    I know I'm fighting against the tide here, but the word "empathy" is being misused in this article, as it very often is in general.

    The article defines empathy thus: "the involuntary desire not only to understand another person’s emotional state but also to make it one’s own—in short, to feel the pain and joy of other people."

    The correct English word for this is "sympathy".

    Empathy, if it is to be a useful and not entirely redundant word, is the cognizance of the feelings of others, as distinct from the sharing of those feelings.

    The word was introduced to the English language in the early 20th century by Titchener (who invented it), but its current popularity owes to the work of the post-Freudian psychotherapist, Heinz Kohut.

    Heinz Kohut explained the distinction with reference to torture and punishment: the torturer uses empathy (the ability to imagine and recognize the feelings of the other) to know how to maximize the victim's pain, but the torturer feels little or no sympathy for the victim. Sympathy would stand in the way of the torturer's goals.

    Empathy and sympathy don't always go together. Besides the example of the torturer, there's also the case of the person who feels misplaced sympathy, because they incorrectly conceive how another person feels.

    So empathy can exist without sympathy, and sympathy without real empathy.

    I too have long been irritated by “empathy” taking over from “sympathy” though not entirely confident in my right to pedantry. But sympathy is I think what you have “with” someone as the Greek etymology would suggest. It is about “fellow feeling”.

    Empathy I seem to recall being originally encouraged to use only for projecting yourself into someone else’s state of mind.

    Maybe it would be better in the current context to start with a question about what reaction(s) to others’ manifestations of emotions would be likely to change people’s relations with others in productive or adverse ways and to contrast this with both the presumed hunter gatherer relations over tens of thousands of years and the patriarchal authoritarian mode that was surely not uncommon amongst Middle Eastern farmers. A related question would be to try and trace a change in behaviour from the time and culture of Abraham to the settled farming days of a few hundred years later.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • In both cases, my hunch is that “conservatives” are disproportionately drawn from populations that have, on average, a higher capacity for affective empathy.

    Love the fetus, hate the baby..

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • In both cases, my hunch is that “conservatives” are disproportionately drawn from populations that have, on average, a higher capacity for affective empathy.

    My hunch is the opposite – for whatever that’s worth…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Conservatives have higher affective empathy? I would’ve expected the exact opposite: liberals experience more (at least for non-family members).

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • If the Chinese, Japanese, Siberians and Israelis have a higher average incidence of the “empathy gene” than the Swiss, Dutch, Canadians and Americans, then the Hajnal Line and the Western European Marriage Pattern don’t really tell us much about the evolution of affective empathy.

    On the other hand, in the real world Northwest Europeans seem to be far more empathetic on average than East Asians or Jews. The former suffer from a pathological altruism–particularly with regards to outgroup immigration–that seems to be mostly absent from the latter, so maybe the deletion variant of the ADRA2b gene isn’t the most reliable marker of an empathetic mindset.

    The Hajnal Line divides Europe into a Roman-German west and a mostly-Slavic east, based on lower and later marriage rates and lower fertility in the west. This pattern probably started in the Frankish heartland between the Rhine and the Seine along with manorialism, then spread to areas conquered by the Carolingians (France, the Low Countries, most of Germany, Northern Italy), and then finally to neighbouring areas under Frankish influence (Northern Iberia, Britain, Scandinavia, the eastern German lands).

    The parts of Eastern Europe west of the Hajnal Line (Czech Republic, western and northern Poland, coastal areas of the Baltic States) were heavily Germanized from the Middle Ages right up until 1945. The parts of Western Europe with higher and earlier marriage rates and higher fertility, were generally the ethnic outliers: non-Indo-European Finland, Celtic Ireland, and the areas of Southern Iberia and Southern Italy that were long under Moorish and/or Byzantine rule.

    So the Western European Marriage Pattern was essentially an ethnic marker: from a Frankish core it expanded to include all the Latin and Germanic lands, but no further. Did this pattern lead to the traits (individualism, guilt proneness, empathy, trustworthiness) that we find in Northwest Europeans today? Maybe, partially. But I think there are three main problems in using the Hajnal Line to define the boundaries of Northwest Europe:

    1) The exclusion of Austria

    For some reason the Hajnal Line is shown as beginning well to the south of Trieste, then jogging to the northwest before turning northeast towards St Petersburg. By doing this it excludes the bulk of Austria, including Vienna. Are we to believe that Vienna–for many centuries the largest city as well as the political, economic and cultural hub of Germany–had a completely different pattern of marriage and fertility than all the other German-speaking lands?

    That seems very unlikely, to say the least. But even if were true at some point in the Middle Ages, Austria today clearly clusters with the rest of Northwest Europe in every measurement you could possibly name. Austria is just as ‘German’ as Bavaria or Saxony, so if it is excluded from Northwest Europe because it (allegedly) falls to the east of the Hajnal Line, then you might as well exclude Germany, and Switzerland too. And that makes no sense at all.

    2) The exclusion of Finland and Ireland

    I don’t dispute that these two countries did in fact have historically different patterns of marriage and fertility from the rest of Northwest Europe. But I would argue that both countries have so thoroughly assimilated to Scandinavian and Anglo-American cultural norms respectively, that their falling outside the Hajnal Line is basically irrelevant today, and that both should definitely be considered integral parts of Northwest Europe.

    Finland was under Swedish rule for nearly 700 years, and even when it was transferred to Russian control Swedish remained the sole official language of Finland for the next 50 years. Swedish is still a co-official language in Finland, and Swedish-Finns have played a hugely outsized role in all aspects of Finnish life: politics, the military, industry, trade, art, architecture, literature, science, music, and on and on, arguably even more so than Finnish-Finns have. And Finland since independence, especially since 1945, has aligned itself ever more closely with the rest of Scandinavia, so much so that it has at least partially subsumed its sovereignty to the Nordic Council, along with Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Iceland.

    Ireland has been partially or wholly under British control from 1169 AD right up to the present day. There has been so much mixing between British and Irish that the British Isles as a whole are generally considered to be a single genetic cluster. When Southern Ireland achieved independence after WWI, they tried to assert their Celticness and Catholicism to differentiate themselves from the Brits. But linguistically this has been a total failure: 100% of the Irish speak English, and Gaelic has been reduced to a folkloric language, almost completely unused in daily life. Religiously, this worked for a while, but this year’s gay marriage referendum (62% said yes) put the final nail in the coffin of Ireland’s once-rigid Catholicism. And since the rise of the ‘Celtic Tiger’ beginning in the 1980s, Ireland has been basically indistinguishable economically, politically and culturally with the rest of the English-speaking world.

    3) The inclusion of the Latin nations

    France and most of Italy, Spain and Portugal fall within the Hajnal Line. But these four nations don’t really cluster with Northwest Europe in terms of language, religion, culture, politics, economics, or even basic geography. Instead, I believe they form their own distinct Mediterranean-Latin-Catholic sub-civilization in Southwest Europe, as opposed to the Nordic-Germanic-Protestant leitkultur in the Northwest and the Alpine-Slavic-Orthodox one in the East.

    The division of Europe into three parts is apparent in something as basic (and culturally important) as each region’s tipple of choice: in the Northwest it’s beer, in the Southwest wine, and in the East vodka. We can see the same pattern in any international measurement of living standards, with the Northwest European nations all clustering near the top, followed by the Southwest and then the East. Some of the East’s lagging is no doubt due to the lingering after effects of communism, but I think the same Northwest-Southwest-East order ranking can be found in the psychological traits listed above (individualism, guilt proneness, empathy and trustworthiness).

    So basically what I’m arguing is that the Hajnal Line shouldn’t be used to define Northwest Europe. Instead, a linguistic definition makes a lot more sense. The 18 Germanic nations of Europe and their overseas offshoots, including Austria, Finland and Ireland, but not France, Italy, Spain or Portugal, make up the Northwest European sub-civilization.

    English: UK, Ireland, US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand
    German: Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein
    Scandinavian: Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland
    Dutch: Netherlands, Belgium

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    It would be very interesting to see if there was any significant correlation between those three groups and the prevalence of any possibly important alleles.
    , @szopen
    Austria is founded on previous Slavic lands and its "Slavic" character was often commented upon by others; today, also genetically Austria shares a lot with Slavic people. I'd say you are trying to include Austria not because of any scientific reason, but simply because you WANT reality to conform to your petty theory.

    Not to mention Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia are not orthodox countries; historically there were times when they were either beer or wine cultures; and nowadays those countries are again more and more beer-oriented.

    Time for personal anecdote: Frankly from my interaction wih English, French, German and Slavic, I always had the best time spent together with other Slavs AND Germans (to my surprise, because in my youth my stereotype of Germans were arrogant, cruel, boring and uncreative). I often couldn't find common tongue with English and French, but in every conference I went to I had fun time with Germans.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Almost all the most virtuous psychological traits, are idealized by psychology and applied in a politically skewed cultural context. Empathy is an extremely idealized feature. The vast majority of people, and most hbd’ers, as it should not be otherwise, are only partially empathic. That is, most tend to project on the other, putting in its place. But they tend to do it mirrored way, and if it was me **

    Most do not try to understand what the other is feeling, why this feeling, the causes and circumstances. Clinical psychology is based on this error, psychologists stand in the place of his patients, but mirrored way, and if it were me ** He never tries to see the side of the patient, because it is always self-projecting and imagining in context social. I’m like that, and that’s fine, if I try, he may also be, like me.

    Family problems are also based on self-projection. The father wants his son to be like him. Often this will be a reality when there is similarity in personality and (+) cognition (intelligence). But when there is no similarity, it will be a torment for the child because the father will make the partially empathic approach.

    East Asians do not seem more empathetic than Europeans, but differently. Empathy (or partial empathy) Asian, it tends to give based on their greater collective civility, although to be very emotionally apathetic, they can also be modulated for the cold behavior, as has happened in China.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • When Siu and Shek (2005) studied empathy in a Chinese sample ranging from 18 to 29 years of age, they found that the participants made little distinction between cognitive empathy and affective (emotional) empathy. These two components seemed to be weakly differentiated from each other. In short, the Chinese participants could see things from another person’s perspective and understand how that person felt. There is much less indication, however, that they involuntarily experienced the feelings of other people, especially feelings of distress.

    This is consistent with other research, going back to Ruth Benedict’s study on the Japanese, that East Asian societies rely much more on shame than on guilt to regulate social behavior.

    Guilt proneness and affective empathy are closely related, so much so that some authors use the term “empathic guilt.” In both cases, one’s behavior is submitted to an “internal judge” — a mental representation of oneself and others — and this “judge” metes out appropriate emotional incentives, including “punishment”, to ensure correct behavior.

    Offhand, “affective empathy” seems to me like one of those fuzzy psychological traits that is difficult to objectively measure and is also subject to considerable cultural influence…

    ‘No’ on both counts. Affective empathy has been extensively studied and shows a heritability of 68%. There have been several twin studies, including some that have looked for age effects. Affective empathy is a mental construct that is distinct from cognitive empathy and prosocial behavior. See the review of the subject by Chakrabarti and Baron-Cohen. (2013).

    The sequence of mental events that gives rise to affective empathy has been studied by Carr et al. (2003).

    Carr, L., M. Iacoboni, M-C. Dubeau, J.C. Mazziotta, and G.L. Lenzi. (2003). Neural mechanisms of empathy in humans: A relay from neural systems for imitation to limbic areas, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (USA), 100, 5497-5502.

    http://www.ucp.pt/site/resources/documents/ICS/GNC/ArtigosGNC/AlexandreCastroCaldas/7_CaIaDuMaLe03.pdf

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • A fascinating early step perhaps. Without retracting agreement from Ron’s points I would be keen to learn of a lot of follow up studies, including other genes and their prevalence, distribution and sometimes multiple effects, but especially wrt just-so stories as hypotheses to be tested. Leaping out to be assessed is some reason why Africans wouldn’t have evolved the same variants as Asian hunter gatherers or the NW European people if the latter are found by testing ancient DNA to have had the variant for more than the last 8000 years or so. Come to think of it the time frame for selection for the variant is going to be critical for following up PF’s line of speculation.

    I was trying to add this as a separate comment. I may be missing something through lack of the attention I would give to something I know a lot about but do I correctly infer that the old kinship emphasis to the SE – but weren’t they farmers anyway? – is consistent with families not really caring much what other members feel as long as they do as they are told or otherwise conform?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ron Unz
    Well, I'm absolutely no expert on this, but is there any solid evidence that East Asians have a lower innate tendency toward "affective empathy" than Northwest Europeans?

    Offhand, "affective empathy" seems to me like one of those fuzzy psychological traits that is difficult to objectively measure and is also subject to considerable cultural influence...

    Ron Unz, here’s how Chakrabarti and Baron-Cohen have psychometricized empathy:

    https://psychology-tools.com/empathy-quotient/

    http://personality-testing.info/tests/EQSQ.php

    http://isik.zrc-sazu.si/doc2009/kpms/Baron-Cohen_empathy_quotient_2004.pdf

    You’re right that it’s fuzzy, ultimately it’s a self-report thing.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Peter, I recently thought of a good way to test for for affective empathy. I wrote something on Steve’s blog about an incident when a black ex-con tried to have his way with me, and described how weird I felt after he took a hit of crack in front of me. I felt physically very unsettled, despite the fact that I couldn’t have inhaled more than an inconsequential fraction of the cocaine he did.

    So I described it as a “contact high,” which is a well-known, if ambiguous, phenomenon. One reader mistook this as suggesting that I was smoking crack, too, but I surmised that he simply didn’t understand the concept of a contact high. In fact, I’ve had contact highs on several occasions, not all of which involved fight or flight type scenarios with dangerous people.

    It occurred to me that the elusive contact high is actually affective empathy in action. People who feel psychologically different around those who are under the influence of drugs probably have affective empathy. It makes perfect sense.

    So if you want to test for affective empathy, it seems to me that testing those around psychotropically altered individuals for a similar response would clue you in to who has it and who doesn’t.

    Perhaps this could put to rest the notion that affective empathy is a “fuzzy” trait. Personally, I think it might be a sexual trait. If, for example, you can “feel” when a woman’s in the mood, it gives you a much better idea of when you’ve got a shot. Maybe it evolved as a mutual arousal mechanism, which puts Nordic women’s “open” behavior in perspective (i.e. they expect you to know when they’re in the mood and when they aren’t without relying on traditional cues like clothing).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pat Casey
    I was thinking along the same two lines as I was reading this, and your experience with the black guy evokes much. Eight years year-round basketball and over three years incarcerated, we've had plenty close contact. I was going to say a contact high depends on them more than you entirely, them high you sober, and what I think about blacks is that they have more spirit, defined as something that can be exuded and received, so I'm no wise surprised you got high. (I'm a literary guy, not science, but whats vague is not nothing, and what can't be measured can still be felt, so forgive my "spirit" and trust my individual empiricism.) IQ Tests are perfectly fair to blacks; I don't believe for a second these emotional tests can be, though I know not how they are administered at all. But I know a lot of gangster rap, and I know what fisticuffs from Africa feel like, and I've known three salt u da earth women well enough, and a bunch of other stuff, and their emotions are just better called spirit. To say that they have precious little affective empathy means nothing. Functionally speaking, their societies reflect the fact that spirit has a spectrum that spans a kind of empathy to raw aggression, I would say. Peter Frost is brilliant, but this paper is perfectly innocent racism qua ignorance. I take the r word back but you know what I mean.

    Gotta run but the second thing was I believe its got to be a sex trait too.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I know I’m fighting against the tide here, but the word “empathy” is being misused in this article, as it very often is in general.

    The article defines empathy thus: “the involuntary desire not only to understand another person’s emotional state but also to make it one’s own—in short, to feel the pain and joy of other people.”

    The correct English word for this is “sympathy”.

    Empathy, if it is to be a useful and not entirely redundant word, is the cognizance of the feelings of others, as distinct from the sharing of those feelings.

    The word was introduced to the English language in the early 20th century by Titchener (who invented it), but its current popularity owes to the work of the post-Freudian psychotherapist, Heinz Kohut.

    Heinz Kohut explained the distinction with reference to torture and punishment: the torturer uses empathy (the ability to imagine and recognize the feelings of the other) to know how to maximize the victim’s pain, but the torturer feels little or no sympathy for the victim. Sympathy would stand in the way of the torturer’s goals.

    Empathy and sympathy don’t always go together. Besides the example of the torturer, there’s also the case of the person who feels misplaced sympathy, because they incorrectly conceive how another person feels.

    So empathy can exist without sympathy, and sympathy without real empathy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I too have long been irritated by "empathy" taking over from "sympathy" though not entirely confident in my right to pedantry. But sympathy is I think what you have "with" someone as the Greek etymology would suggest. It is about "fellow feeling".

    Empathy I seem to recall being originally encouraged to use only for projecting yourself into someone else's state of mind.

    Maybe it would be better in the current context to start with a question about what reaction(s) to others' manifestations of emotions would be likely to change people's relations with others in productive or adverse ways and to contrast this with both the presumed hunter gatherer relations over tens of thousands of years and the patriarchal authoritarian mode that was surely not uncommon amongst Middle Eastern farmers. A related question would be to try and trace a change in behaviour from the time and culture of Abraham to the settled farming days of a few hundred years later.
    , @iffen

    the torturer uses empathy (the ability to imagine and recognize the feelings of the other)
     
    This does not seem to have a lot emotional content.

    I think of sympathy has having a great deal of emotion involved.

    I can't see real connection between the two.

    It is comparing an empirical observation with a gut emotion.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Ron Unz
    Well, I'm absolutely no expert on this, but is there any solid evidence that East Asians have a lower innate tendency toward "affective empathy" than Northwest Europeans?

    Offhand, "affective empathy" seems to me like one of those fuzzy psychological traits that is difficult to objectively measure and is also subject to considerable cultural influence...

    East Asians tend to regard themselves as being more empathic than Westerners, including Northwest Europeans, the Westerners they most often encounter, in much the same way that Westerners tend to regard themselves as being more empathic than East Asians.

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2015/06/162_180778.html

    My church friend, Rachel, who has lived in Korea for almost six years told me that Koreans don’t express their thoughts clearly sometimes. Consequently, she doesn’t know evidently what they want. For instance, her husband, Jonathan, asked me to go out for dinner with church members several days ago.

    Although I had my own schedule that day, I had to accept his proposal because I didn’t want to disappoint and hurt him. Hence, I can say that Koreans are emotional and considerate. We tend to sacrifice our time to help our friends. However, my observations tell me that westerners are individualistic. They prefer keeping their own space and never do what they don’t want to do.

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2015/07/162_183210.html

    In Korea, seniors generally pay the money for juniors when they go out together for dinner and go to the bar to hang out. I definitely say that Koreans have an immaculate virtue, which foreigners cannot think of. A senior feels the responsibility for taking care of juniors by treating them to some food using his money. The juniors meanwhile feel happier to know that their seniors are willing to care them. Later, they will show more sincerity to their seniors. I think the unilateral trade from the seniors is the steppingstone to progressing favorable friendship with the juniors.

    In a nutshell, Koreans are so generous and benevolent. I wonder if this character originates from a “collective society,” in which people prefer “we” to “I.”

    I think that Koreans are more polite and respectful to the old. I also think foreigners should learn from Koreans about how they treat the aged with courtesy. A British friend of mine alleged that he could punch an elderly person if he is lazy and an alcoholic, while I said that we should embrace them whatever they do.

    Westerners are even reluctant to give special favor for an old lady. For instance, when I was in Brisbane, Australia, I saw a vacant seat on the bus stop. As I was a conventional Korean man, I was supposed to yield it to the old lady who stood right next to me. At the moment I found a young lady staring at me so unkindly and sharply. She seemed to be extremely upset with me. She wanted to take the seat for herself. She never cared about the person who was at least 70.

    I think that Westerners hardly regard the elderly as important and trustworthy. Worse, they make light of them, because they are physically weak. What I am saying is that ”All men are equal” does not make sense in this regard. We should be more attentive to the old who have devoted their life to the community. They are worthy of being loved and revered whatever they are.

    On the other hand, I saw a Canadian friend in a bus who has lived in Gwangju for over 10 years. He was willing to give his seat to the old lady after finding that she was standing right behind his seat. I thought that Korean society has taught him how to respect the old and that a desirable tradition in Korea has affected him in a more positive way.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    “I think that Koreans are more polite and respectful to the old. I also think foreigners should learn from Koreans about how they treat the aged with courtesy.”

    The idea that genetics rules all of human behavior is bogus. God gave us brains that takes in information ---- we can use that information in a logical fashion and create knowledge. That knowledge can override our biological instincts. The process leads to philosophical cultures.

    Korean respect for the aged is because of its culture - not its genetics – Koreans are Confucians – Confucian philosophy venerates the old and one’s ancestors.

    When a Korean immigrates to America his successive generations lose his Confucian philosophy. They adapted to Western philosophy. Hmm – how can this be - two thousand years of genetics are changed in two generations. Of course, it was never genetics in the first place.

    Animals have empathy – 98% of everybody has some capacity to be empathic. It is ones culture that determines how it is expressed and to what degree.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Well, I’m absolutely no expert on this, but is there any solid evidence that East Asians have a lower innate tendency toward “affective empathy” than Northwest Europeans?

    Offhand, “affective empathy” seems to me like one of those fuzzy psychological traits that is difficult to objectively measure and is also subject to considerable cultural influence…

    Read More
    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    East Asians tend to regard themselves as being more empathic than Westerners, including Northwest Europeans, the Westerners they most often encounter, in much the same way that Westerners tend to regard themselves as being more empathic than East Asians.

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2015/06/162_180778.html

    My church friend, Rachel, who has lived in Korea for almost six years told me that Koreans don't express their thoughts clearly sometimes. Consequently, she doesn't know evidently what they want. For instance, her husband, Jonathan, asked me to go out for dinner with church members several days ago.

    Although I had my own schedule that day, I had to accept his proposal because I didn't want to disappoint and hurt him. Hence, I can say that Koreans are emotional and considerate. We tend to sacrifice our time to help our friends. However, my observations tell me that westerners are individualistic. They prefer keeping their own space and never do what they don't want to do.
     
    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2015/07/162_183210.html

    In Korea, seniors generally pay the money for juniors when they go out together for dinner and go to the bar to hang out. I definitely say that Koreans have an immaculate virtue, which foreigners cannot think of. A senior feels the responsibility for taking care of juniors by treating them to some food using his money. The juniors meanwhile feel happier to know that their seniors are willing to care them. Later, they will show more sincerity to their seniors. I think the unilateral trade from the seniors is the steppingstone to progressing favorable friendship with the juniors.

    In a nutshell, Koreans are so generous and benevolent. I wonder if this character originates from a "collective society," in which people prefer "we" to "I."

    I think that Koreans are more polite and respectful to the old. I also think foreigners should learn from Koreans about how they treat the aged with courtesy. A British friend of mine alleged that he could punch an elderly person if he is lazy and an alcoholic, while I said that we should embrace them whatever they do.

    Westerners are even reluctant to give special favor for an old lady. For instance, when I was in Brisbane, Australia, I saw a vacant seat on the bus stop. As I was a conventional Korean man, I was supposed to yield it to the old lady who stood right next to me. At the moment I found a young lady staring at me so unkindly and sharply. She seemed to be extremely upset with me. She wanted to take the seat for herself. She never cared about the person who was at least 70.

    I think that Westerners hardly regard the elderly as important and trustworthy. Worse, they make light of them, because they are physically weak. What I am saying is that ''All men are equal" does not make sense in this regard. We should be more attentive to the old who have devoted their life to the community. They are worthy of being loved and revered whatever they are.

    On the other hand, I saw a Canadian friend in a bus who has lived in Gwangju for over 10 years. He was willing to give his seat to the old lady after finding that she was standing right behind his seat. I thought that Korean society has taught him how to respect the old and that a desirable tradition in Korea has affected him in a more positive way.
     
    , @AnonymousCoward
    Ron Unz, here's how Chakrabarti and Baron-Cohen have psychometricized empathy:

    https://psychology-tools.com/empathy-quotient/
    http://personality-testing.info/tests/EQSQ.php
    http://isik.zrc-sazu.si/doc2009/kpms/Baron-Cohen_empathy_quotient_2004.pdf

    You're right that it's fuzzy, ultimately it's a self-report thing.
    , @PandaAtWar
    Absolutely!

    I am not an expert on this either, but see Panda's intuitive response on this "effective empathy" here last year:

    http://evoandproud.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/affective-empathy-evolutionary-mistake.html
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • We like to think that all people feel empathy to the same degree. In reality, it varies a lot from one person to the next, like most mental traits. We are half-aware of this when we distinguish between "normal people" and "psychopaths," the latter having an abnormally low capacity for empathy. The distinction is arbitrary,...
  • @Peter Frost
    Enrique,

    Please stay on-topic. Remember, the topic is not Hitler.

    I don't think any of you guys are trolls. You just seem to be so caught up in the revisionist/anti-revisionist subculture that you have trouble imagining there are other issues and other debates.

    I don't want to leave The Unz Review, but this sort of thing can cause me no end of problems. Until two years ago, Canadian bloggers were held legally responsible for the comments on their blogs and could be prosecuted under Hate Crime legislation.

    The law has been changed, but the guilt by association still exists in most people's minds. This isn't the U.S., and people think differently. I could defend myself by pointing out I have no control over the comments, but people would ask: "Why, then, don't you have your column removed from The Unz Review?"

    Anon,

    National Geographic is a respected magazine, but it's hardly a primary source in a debate that has swung wildly back and forth in recent years. At one point, most academics agreed that the European gene pool was about 80% descended from native hunter-gatherers and 20% from Middle-Eastern farmers. With retrieval of ancient DNA, the tables suddenly turned, and people started saying that Europeans are mainly descended from those Middle Eastern farmers.

    Now the pendulum is swinging back. Ancient DNA does show a sharp genetic divide between late hunter-gatherers and early farmers, but a closer look at more complete time series shows that the divide is actually between the earliest farmers and somewhat later farmers. Part of the genetic divide seems to be caused not by population replacement but rather by a change in selection pressures, which then caused a shift in the frequencies of certain mtDNA haplogroups (which were formerly assumed to be of no selective value).

    Perhaps this is a stupid question, but if that’s what the attitudes in your country are like: Why don’t you leave Canada?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • […] Peter Frost discussed a trait that plays a significant role in universalism: affective empathy. From his post Feeling the Other’s Pain: […]

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sean
    Oh, the NYT thinks Europeans are backward and seizes on every piece of evidence for the backlash overpowering liberal internationalism. So do nationalists and HBDers like Jayman. Danes have the most feminine digit ratio in the world, and that makes their country a special case (its different to Sweden in many ways, economic elites have far more power in Sweden read, Mark Blyth).

    An example of what Danes are like


    A 14-month-old girl who was taken away from her parents after being left alone in her stroller outside an East Village restaurant while her parents dined was ordered returned to her mother by a Family Court judge yesterday.

    The child, Liv Sorensen, had been placed in foster care by the city's Administration for Children's Services after the arrests Saturday night of her parents, Annette Sorensen, 30, an actress from Copenhagen, and Exavier Wardlaw, 49, a production assistant for the Walt Disney Company who lives in Brooklyn. The couple had left the child in a stroller outside the Dallas BBQ Restaurant at 132 Second Avenue, prompting alarmed passersby to call the police.[ ...] He said the couple did not bring the child into the restaurant in the first place because Ms. Sorensen believed that the common Danish practice of leaving children unattended outside restaurants and shops was equally acceptable in New York.
     

    The cause of national survival can't win on the evidence of everything since Enoch. Of course there is a nationalist school of thought with political representation which the NYT screeches about because it loathes and despises the mere existence of nationalists. But they have not been able to get into power and Denmark is admitting more non European immigrants than ever. Germany has in effect disarmed and given up the right to self defence, it will not have even a potential nuclear capability soon. Economists are 100 % for immigration and puffing up the county like a bullfrog. For example they are exultant that Britain will overtake Germany as the most populous country in the world in a couple of generations.

    I’m not sure what leaving children unattended has anything to do with this. I’ve seen babies unattended in Japan, and little kids wandering about in Japanese cities by themselves. Japan is not exactly a bastion of liberal internationalism. You seem to seize upon every trivial anecdote.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Sean says: • Website
    @anon

    Some people will tell you that Denmark turned right...
     
    And some people would be right and you would be wrong.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/22/opinion/denmarks-far-right-kingmakers.html?_r=0

    "With 21 percent of the vote, up from 12 percent in 2011, the extreme right is now the second-largest party in Denmark."

    Like everywhere else there's a battle between a small liberal minority and the majority of the population which is dramatically skewed and evened up by liberal dominance of the media.

    The Danish survivalist party is near the head of the pack in terms of electoral success and your theory is wrong.

    Oh, the NYT thinks Europeans are backward and seizes on every piece of evidence for the backlash overpowering liberal internationalism. So do nationalists and HBDers like Jayman. Danes have the most feminine digit ratio in the world, and that makes their country a special case (its different to Sweden in many ways, economic elites have far more power in Sweden read, Mark Blyth).

    An example of what Danes are like

    A 14-month-old girl who was taken away from her parents after being left alone in her stroller outside an East Village restaurant while her parents dined was ordered returned to her mother by a Family Court judge yesterday.

    The child, Liv Sorensen, had been placed in foster care by the city’s Administration for Children’s Services after the arrests Saturday night of her parents, Annette Sorensen, 30, an actress from Copenhagen, and Exavier Wardlaw, 49, a production assistant for the Walt Disney Company who lives in Brooklyn. The couple had left the child in a stroller outside the Dallas BBQ Restaurant at 132 Second Avenue, prompting alarmed passersby to call the police.[ ...] He said the couple did not bring the child into the restaurant in the first place because Ms. Sorensen believed that the common Danish practice of leaving children unattended outside restaurants and shops was equally acceptable in New York.

    The cause of national survival can’t win on the evidence of everything since Enoch. Of course there is a nationalist school of thought with political representation which the NYT screeches about because it loathes and despises the mere existence of nationalists. But they have not been able to get into power and Denmark is admitting more non European immigrants than ever. Germany has in effect disarmed and given up the right to self defence, it will not have even a potential nuclear capability soon. Economists are 100 % for immigration and puffing up the county like a bullfrog. For example they are exultant that Britain will overtake Germany as the most populous country in the world in a couple of generations.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I'm not sure what leaving children unattended has anything to do with this. I've seen babies unattended in Japan, and little kids wandering about in Japanese cities by themselves. Japan is not exactly a bastion of liberal internationalism. You seem to seize upon every trivial anecdote.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Yyh2QaBkU
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @SFG
    It's up to the owner of the individual blog, I think. Razib will ban you if you act too dumb, most of them let anything go through.

    Mate, there are some hypocrites, who while whingeing on about ‘topics,’ are themselves, hypocritically, also introducing these and other topics. Everything is tickety-boo when they are writing and doing such, and they have no problem when their own rubbish is being discussed. They only become conveniently ‘offended’ when it suits them. Its like the porn actresses on Razib’s thread who complain about ‘hookers’ giving them a bad name.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Art says:
    @SFG
    I thought the whole point of Unz was to avoid strict censorship of any kind...

    I mean, I think the Holocaust denial thing is stupid, but I'm not going to convince these guys, so I just ignore it. The evidence is strong enough on its own for any curious person who wants to check.

    “I mean, I think the Holocaust denial thing is stupid, but I’m not going to convince these guys, so I just ignore it. The evidence is strong enough on its own for any curious person who wants to check.”

    [MORE]

    Fifty Five million people died in that god dam war – Russians, Poles, Germans, Japanese, and Chinese died in the millions. Six million Jews dying in gas chambers is a lie. It did not happen.

    Of course one death is to many. Collective punishment is wrong! We all agree.

    The problem is that the Jews have used this false number to do more wrong – YOU – deed to get honest and not be a willing part of this hurtful lie.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    Enrique, neither Christianity nor anything else can remove actual conflicts of interest between peoples , and conflicts don't have solutions, they have outcomes. If the Tasmanians had converted and were still around they would not be the majority in Tasmania.


    Peter's coalitionary marine resource exploitation explanation seems the most likely. The North sea coast of Europe is where the most affective empathy is found (look at Denmark*). It is also where the modern form of commerce and capitalism originated Hanseatic League, United provinces.

    * Some people will tell you that Denmark turned right and it did for a while but in 2011 it turned back to old policies with a vengence and under PM Helle Thorning-Schmidt Denmark gave immigrants increased rights and was admitting more non-European immigrants than ever (here) and this in a country with the highest taxes in the world . As with human beings, inner conflict is natural or normal in nations and while one can point to particular points in time as epitomising a country's ethos, the overall trend is clear. Wherever they actually enter, the immigrants are heading for north Europe, not the places where Christianity has been longest established.

    Some people will tell you that Denmark turned right…

    And some people would be right and you would be wrong.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/22/opinion/denmarks-far-right-kingmakers.html?_r=0

    “With 21 percent of the vote, up from 12 percent in 2011, the extreme right is now the second-largest party in Denmark.”

    Like everywhere else there’s a battle between a small liberal minority and the majority of the population which is dramatically skewed and evened up by liberal dominance of the media.

    The Danish survivalist party is near the head of the pack in terms of electoral success and your theory is wrong.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    Oh, the NYT thinks Europeans are backward and seizes on every piece of evidence for the backlash overpowering liberal internationalism. So do nationalists and HBDers like Jayman. Danes have the most feminine digit ratio in the world, and that makes their country a special case (its different to Sweden in many ways, economic elites have far more power in Sweden read, Mark Blyth).

    An example of what Danes are like


    A 14-month-old girl who was taken away from her parents after being left alone in her stroller outside an East Village restaurant while her parents dined was ordered returned to her mother by a Family Court judge yesterday.

    The child, Liv Sorensen, had been placed in foster care by the city's Administration for Children's Services after the arrests Saturday night of her parents, Annette Sorensen, 30, an actress from Copenhagen, and Exavier Wardlaw, 49, a production assistant for the Walt Disney Company who lives in Brooklyn. The couple had left the child in a stroller outside the Dallas BBQ Restaurant at 132 Second Avenue, prompting alarmed passersby to call the police.[ ...] He said the couple did not bring the child into the restaurant in the first place because Ms. Sorensen believed that the common Danish practice of leaving children unattended outside restaurants and shops was equally acceptable in New York.
     

    The cause of national survival can't win on the evidence of everything since Enoch. Of course there is a nationalist school of thought with political representation which the NYT screeches about because it loathes and despises the mere existence of nationalists. But they have not been able to get into power and Denmark is admitting more non European immigrants than ever. Germany has in effect disarmed and given up the right to self defence, it will not have even a potential nuclear capability soon. Economists are 100 % for immigration and puffing up the county like a bullfrog. For example they are exultant that Britain will overtake Germany as the most populous country in the world in a couple of generations.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Peter does not have moderating authority here. But I think there was a tiny clue in his repeatedly asking for an end to the subject in question being brought into comment threads on his posts, which certain people continue to ignore.

    Most come here to read his stuff, but some commenters come here solely to get their stuff read, or to disrupt the post through OT controversies. They should write about what interests them at their own blog.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sean
    "I thought the whole point of Unz was to avoid strict censorship of any kind" That doesn't mean you have a licence to riff on any OT subject that takes your fancy, like happened on this thread. It's not your blog.

    It’s up to the owner of the individual blog, I think. Razib will ban you if you act too dumb, most of them let anything go through.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Mate, there are some hypocrites, who while whingeing on about 'topics,' are themselves, hypocritically, also introducing these and other topics. Everything is tickety-boo when they are writing and doing such, and they have no problem when their own rubbish is being discussed. They only become conveniently 'offended' when it suits them. Its like the porn actresses on Razib's thread who complain about 'hookers' giving them a bad name.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SFG
    Dr. Frost:

    I'm sorry to hear you live in Canada where it's legal to prosecute people over speech, but one thing you should be aware of is that most of the people interested in these 'aberrant' topics tend to hold far-right views up to and including Holocaust denial, and if you are seriously worried about legal ramifications, you should probably ask Unz if you can withdraw your stuff. I and everyone here enjoys it very much, but this is not worth going to jail over, especially with packs of SJW ready to hound anyone they can detect with 'incorrect' views. If you are so brave as to continue, God bless you...and look into getting US citizenship!

    Sure, you can believe in HBD and the Holocaust, just like you can believe in HBD and global climate change. But almost nobody does. The politics of these issues are such that whoever believes A, tends to believe B, even if A is false and B is true. I've never met anyone who just takes things on the evidence--or at least they don't admit to it. ;) Humans are social beings, after all. You pick which set of falsehoods you're willing to mouth.

    “I thought the whole point of Unz was to avoid strict censorship of any kind” That doesn’t mean you have a licence to riff on any OT subject that takes your fancy, like happened on this thread. It’s not your blog.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SFG
    It's up to the owner of the individual blog, I think. Razib will ban you if you act too dumb, most of them let anything go through.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Enrique Cardova
    OK fair enough, but would not universalism be important? We know that people naturally will favor their own kin and clan as far as empathy. But a universalist ethos would cut across that and broaden the scope of empathy would it not? Christianity's numerous outreach missions, as part of its universalist mandate, regardless of race, tribe or tongue, with its savior, bringing mercy and salvation to all regardless of race, tribe, or tongue, would definitely be important. This does not mean Christians have not been often particularists- they have- but their universalist mandate has softened rigid boundaries, and sparked worldwide outreach and expansion.

    So when you say above:
    "I don’t think Christianity was important, beyond being a rationalization tool of this new empathy born out of outbreeding. "

    How do you mean is Christianity a rationalization tool? Are you saying empathy is solely or mostly a product of European outbreeding and Christianity is just a secondary after-the-fact justification for this? If so how do you account for the fact that Christianity embraced and practiced empathy long BEFORE much northern European manorialism or outbreeding? In fact Christians are enjoined to practice empathy from the earliest times of their religion- Titus 3 for example : "..take care to pay diligent attention to good works. These things are good and profitable to men. " and so on.

    Enrique, neither Christianity nor anything else can remove actual conflicts of interest between peoples , and conflicts don’t have solutions, they have outcomes. If the Tasmanians had converted and were still around they would not be the majority in Tasmania.

    Peter’s coalitionary marine resource exploitation explanation seems the most likely. The North sea coast of Europe is where the most affective empathy is found (look at Denmark*). It is also where the modern form of commerce and capitalism originated Hanseatic League, United provinces.

    * Some people will tell you that Denmark turned right and it did for a while but in 2011 it turned back to old policies with a vengence and under PM Helle Thorning-Schmidt Denmark gave immigrants increased rights and was admitting more non-European immigrants than ever (here) and this in a country with the highest taxes in the world . As with human beings, inner conflict is natural or normal in nations and while one can point to particular points in time as epitomising a country’s ethos, the overall trend is clear. Wherever they actually enter, the immigrants are heading for north Europe, not the places where Christianity has been longest established.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    Some people will tell you that Denmark turned right...
     
    And some people would be right and you would be wrong.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/22/opinion/denmarks-far-right-kingmakers.html?_r=0

    "With 21 percent of the vote, up from 12 percent in 2011, the extreme right is now the second-largest party in Denmark."

    Like everywhere else there's a battle between a small liberal minority and the majority of the population which is dramatically skewed and evened up by liberal dominance of the media.

    The Danish survivalist party is near the head of the pack in terms of electoral success and your theory is wrong.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • SFG says:
    @Peter Frost
    Enrique,

    Please stay on-topic. Remember, the topic is not Hitler.

    I don't think any of you guys are trolls. You just seem to be so caught up in the revisionist/anti-revisionist subculture that you have trouble imagining there are other issues and other debates.

    I don't want to leave The Unz Review, but this sort of thing can cause me no end of problems. Until two years ago, Canadian bloggers were held legally responsible for the comments on their blogs and could be prosecuted under Hate Crime legislation.

    The law has been changed, but the guilt by association still exists in most people's minds. This isn't the U.S., and people think differently. I could defend myself by pointing out I have no control over the comments, but people would ask: "Why, then, don't you have your column removed from The Unz Review?"

    Anon,

    National Geographic is a respected magazine, but it's hardly a primary source in a debate that has swung wildly back and forth in recent years. At one point, most academics agreed that the European gene pool was about 80% descended from native hunter-gatherers and 20% from Middle-Eastern farmers. With retrieval of ancient DNA, the tables suddenly turned, and people started saying that Europeans are mainly descended from those Middle Eastern farmers.

    Now the pendulum is swinging back. Ancient DNA does show a sharp genetic divide between late hunter-gatherers and early farmers, but a closer look at more complete time series shows that the divide is actually between the earliest farmers and somewhat later farmers. Part of the genetic divide seems to be caused not by population replacement but rather by a change in selection pressures, which then caused a shift in the frequencies of certain mtDNA haplogroups (which were formerly assumed to be of no selective value).

    Dr. Frost:

    I’m sorry to hear you live in Canada where it’s legal to prosecute people over speech, but one thing you should be aware of is that most of the people interested in these ‘aberrant’ topics tend to hold far-right views up to and including Holocaust denial, and if you are seriously worried about legal ramifications, you should probably ask Unz if you can withdraw your stuff. I and everyone here enjoys it very much, but this is not worth going to jail over, especially with packs of SJW ready to hound anyone they can detect with ‘incorrect’ views. If you are so brave as to continue, God bless you…and look into getting US citizenship!

    Sure, you can believe in HBD and the Holocaust, just like you can believe in HBD and global climate change. But almost nobody does. The politics of these issues are such that whoever believes A, tends to believe B, even if A is false and B is true. I’ve never met anyone who just takes things on the evidence–or at least they don’t admit to it. ;) Humans are social beings, after all. You pick which set of falsehoods you’re willing to mouth.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    "I thought the whole point of Unz was to avoid strict censorship of any kind" That doesn't mean you have a licence to riff on any OT subject that takes your fancy, like happened on this thread. It's not your blog.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • SFG says:
    @Anonymous
    That is a flagrant, flaming, grotesque lie.
    No such thing has been said or written by "mainstream historians" - or indeed any person outside a small circle of pathological fantasists.
    Unz.com should implement strict censorship of any variants of holocaust denialism, including the "But Hitler didn't know" version of it.

    I thought the whole point of Unz was to avoid strict censorship of any kind…

    I mean, I think the Holocaust denial thing is stupid, but I’m not going to convince these guys, so I just ignore it. The evidence is strong enough on its own for any curious person who wants to check.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    "I mean, I think the Holocaust denial thing is stupid, but I’m not going to convince these guys, so I just ignore it. The evidence is strong enough on its own for any curious person who wants to check."

    Fifty Five million people died in that god dam war – Russians, Poles, Germans, Japanese, and Chinese died in the millions. Six million Jews dying in gas chambers is a lie. It did not happen.

    Of course one death is to many. Collective punishment is wrong! We all agree.

    The problem is that the Jews have used this false number to do more wrong – YOU - deed to get honest and not be a willing part of this hurtful lie.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    Everybody,

    I have no control over the comments made here. All I can do is implore everyone to show a bit of common sense. This is not a post about Hitler and I don't appreciate getting sloppy kisses and big bear hugs from keyboard Nazis. Please take your commenting elsewhere.

    Contemporary Northwest Europeans are only about half Mesolithic and Northern European, with the other half being Mediterranean and Southwest Asian.

    You are incorrect. In fact, there is very little measurable genetic admixture from Middle Eastern Neolithic farmers in Scandinavia. In the British Isles, the introgression is in the vicinity of 20%.

    "We obtained 249 million base pairs of genomic DNA from ~5000-year-old remains of three hunter-gatherers and one farmer excavated in Scandinavia and find that the farmer is genetically most similar to extant southern Europeans, contrasting sharply to the hunter-gatherers, whose distinct genetic signature is most similar to that of extant northern Europeans."

    http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6080/466.short

    I am aware of the genetic data from central Europe, but even there -- where the degree of admixture should be higher -- there is evidence that the incoming farmers were themselves later replaced by the descendants of acculturated hunter-gatherers.

    Surely even blank slatists would admit that society has not actually reached the stage in which every human actually grows up in an identically secure, stimulating, progressive environment

    Yes, they would "admit" that. In fact, that's the socially normal view. If people show low levels of empathy, it's because they have not been kindly treated themselves.

    ” This is not a post about Hitler and I don’t appreciate getting sloppy kisses and big bear hugs from keyboard Nazis.”

    As they say on another popular internet forum, you must be new here. ;)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I suppose that most of us have understood the difference between:
    - cognition of emotions
    - mirroring of emotions
    - caring
    Even if I understand Peter Frost’s wish to distinguish clearly between cognition and mirroring, denying any relation – but meseems that this makes “mirroring” unexplainable and we end in a logical trap “It simply must be innate, because we can’t explain it”.

    We all know that mirroring cannot be taught in the standard way of teaching. But can’t it be learned by imitation, if a child has parents who practise mirroring? And what’s with reading? Reading has done a lot for me. I’m much more open to other people’s feelings and more prepared to live within their skin, if I haven’t to live with them, but only to read about them. Wouldn’t that prepare the ground for mirroring?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @imnobody00
    @Enrique Cardova

    "So you say but present no specific examples, nor cite any evidence. "

    Go to the hbdchik blog, if you want hundreds of pages of evidence.

    "Up above you say Christianity was not very important, yet now you cite the Catholic Church’s ban on cousin marriages as being an influential part of the empathy mix. Which is it? The 2 positions are contradictory."

    Look, Enrique, I didn't think it was necessary to explain this, when it is obvious to anybody who has basic reading skills. Yes, it was not made explicit, because, unlike with programming languages, not everything is explicit in human language but it was clear if you take the context into account.

    I meant that the fact that Christianity is universalist is not important, because Islam is also universalist. I was talking about the Christian doctrine about universalism (not in a derogatory way because I am a Christian). I didn't refer to the laws enacted by the Christian Church and the structures of power of Christianity and their decisions.

    OK fair enough, but would not universalism be important? We know that people naturally will favor their own kin and clan as far as empathy. But a universalist ethos would cut across that and broaden the scope of empathy would it not? Christianity’s numerous outreach missions, as part of its universalist mandate, regardless of race, tribe or tongue, with its savior, bringing mercy and salvation to all regardless of race, tribe, or tongue, would definitely be important. This does not mean Christians have not been often particularists- they have- but their universalist mandate has softened rigid boundaries, and sparked worldwide outreach and expansion.

    So when you say above:
    “I don’t think Christianity was important, beyond being a rationalization tool of this new empathy born out of outbreeding. ”

    How do you mean is Christianity a rationalization tool? Are you saying empathy is solely or mostly a product of European outbreeding and Christianity is just a secondary after-the-fact justification for this? If so how do you account for the fact that Christianity embraced and practiced empathy long BEFORE much northern European manorialism or outbreeding? In fact Christians are enjoined to practice empathy from the earliest times of their religion- Titus 3 for example : “..take care to pay diligent attention to good works. These things are good and profitable to men. ” and so on.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    Enrique, neither Christianity nor anything else can remove actual conflicts of interest between peoples , and conflicts don't have solutions, they have outcomes. If the Tasmanians had converted and were still around they would not be the majority in Tasmania.


    Peter's coalitionary marine resource exploitation explanation seems the most likely. The North sea coast of Europe is where the most affective empathy is found (look at Denmark*). It is also where the modern form of commerce and capitalism originated Hanseatic League, United provinces.

    * Some people will tell you that Denmark turned right and it did for a while but in 2011 it turned back to old policies with a vengence and under PM Helle Thorning-Schmidt Denmark gave immigrants increased rights and was admitting more non-European immigrants than ever (here) and this in a country with the highest taxes in the world . As with human beings, inner conflict is natural or normal in nations and while one can point to particular points in time as epitomising a country's ethos, the overall trend is clear. Wherever they actually enter, the immigrants are heading for north Europe, not the places where Christianity has been longest established.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @imnobody00
    @Enrique Cardova

    "So you say but present no specific examples, nor cite any evidence. "

    Go to the hbdchik blog, if you want hundreds of pages of evidence.

    "Up above you say Christianity was not very important, yet now you cite the Catholic Church’s ban on cousin marriages as being an influential part of the empathy mix. Which is it? The 2 positions are contradictory."

    Look, Enrique, I didn't think it was necessary to explain this, when it is obvious to anybody who has basic reading skills. Yes, it was not made explicit, because, unlike with programming languages, not everything is explicit in human language but it was clear if you take the context into account.

    I meant that the fact that Christianity is universalist is not important, because Islam is also universalist. I was talking about the Christian doctrine about universalism (not in a derogatory way because I am a Christian). I didn't refer to the laws enacted by the Christian Church and the structures of power of Christianity and their decisions.

    Anon, it’s the male kind.

    The country with the most affective empathy (highest taxed welfare state, first to legalise homsexuasl marriage, fanatical environmentalists ect) is also the place that has the most feminine digit ratio on the world. And the Puritans came from the part of England most heavily settled from that country. Extreme protestantism emphasises an personal relationship with God, which is compatible with individual guilt rather than shame.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “So you say but present no specific examples, nor cite any evidence. ”

    Go to the hbdchik blog, if you want hundreds of pages of evidence.

    “Up above you say Christianity was not very important, yet now you cite the Catholic Church’s ban on cousin marriages as being an influential part of the empathy mix. Which is it? The 2 positions are contradictory.”

    Look, Enrique, I didn’t think it was necessary to explain this, when it is obvious to anybody who has basic reading skills. Yes, it was not made explicit, because, unlike with programming languages, not everything is explicit in human language but it was clear if you take the context into account.

    I meant that the fact that Christianity is universalist is not important, because Islam is also universalist. I was talking about the Christian doctrine about universalism (not in a derogatory way because I am a Christian). I didn’t refer to the laws enacted by the Christian Church and the structures of power of Christianity and their decisions.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    Anon, it's the male kind.

    The country with the most affective empathy (highest taxed welfare state, first to legalise homsexuasl marriage, fanatical environmentalists ect) is also the place that has the most feminine digit ratio on the world. And the Puritans came from the part of England most heavily settled from that country. Extreme protestantism emphasises an personal relationship with God, which is compatible with individual guilt rather than shame.

    , @Enrique Cardova
    OK fair enough, but would not universalism be important? We know that people naturally will favor their own kin and clan as far as empathy. But a universalist ethos would cut across that and broaden the scope of empathy would it not? Christianity's numerous outreach missions, as part of its universalist mandate, regardless of race, tribe or tongue, with its savior, bringing mercy and salvation to all regardless of race, tribe, or tongue, would definitely be important. This does not mean Christians have not been often particularists- they have- but their universalist mandate has softened rigid boundaries, and sparked worldwide outreach and expansion.

    So when you say above:
    "I don’t think Christianity was important, beyond being a rationalization tool of this new empathy born out of outbreeding. "

    How do you mean is Christianity a rationalization tool? Are you saying empathy is solely or mostly a product of European outbreeding and Christianity is just a secondary after-the-fact justification for this? If so how do you account for the fact that Christianity embraced and practiced empathy long BEFORE much northern European manorialism or outbreeding? In fact Christians are enjoined to practice empathy from the earliest times of their religion- Titus 3 for example : "..take care to pay diligent attention to good works. These things are good and profitable to men. " and so on.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sean
    If a man has the cognitive empathy to understand a girl's feelings and he gets her to believe that he is in love with her and always will be, then that does not entail him actually being in love, or having affective empathy.

    Through her affective empathy a woman may be fooled into being in love (and seduced) by the man dissimulating that he is in love, when he is not.

    yeah like I said – it’s hunter’s empathy, not the nice kind

    very useful though

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @anon
    It's possible to have both.

    If you have the hunter's empathy combined with the originally maternal kind then the first kind lets you spot weakness but the second kind stops you exploiting it

    for example you can spot a mile off if a good looking girl is upset over something but you can't take advantage of it.

    If a man has the cognitive empathy to understand a girl’s feelings and he gets her to believe that he is in love with her and always will be, then that does not entail him actually being in love, or having affective empathy.

    Through her affective empathy a woman may be fooled into being in love (and seduced) by the man dissimulating that he is in love, when he is not.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    yeah like I said - it's hunter's empathy, not the nice kind

    very useful though
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Enrique Cardova
    Yes, there is some data out there that shows women do have higher levels of empathy, but huge differences in actual behavior (emphatic responding) do not readily emerge in studies. The higher female pattern is somewhat dependent on the measurement technique used. For example, the largest gender differences emerge when females and males rate their own empathetic responses, where the subjects are aware they are being observed. Nevertheless the bottom line is that females do on average, tend to EXPRESS higher levels of empathy and sympathy than males in circumstances of concern to them. This expression seems to have a behavioral impact. As a result, some hold that females tend to be less likely on average to victimize others and engage in anti-social behavior. Those with strong family bonds are also less likely to express empathy and more likely to engage in anti-social behavior or delinquency. (Deflem 2006).

    Yes it can be double-edged. If a woman has more empathy but it’s extremely focused on her own kids it can make them colder to other people’s.

    I think there’s a lot of complexity in all this because of the interplay of different genes – say both cog and affective can vary on a ten point scale then an individual might be 1/10 or 10/1 or 5/3 etc and their behavior will vary accordingly – but the foundation of it is well described in the article.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Enrique Cardova
    Yes, there is some data out there that shows women do have higher levels of empathy, but huge differences in actual behavior (emphatic responding) do not readily emerge in studies. The higher female pattern is somewhat dependent on the measurement technique used. For example, the largest gender differences emerge when females and males rate their own empathetic responses, where the subjects are aware they are being observed. Nevertheless the bottom line is that females do on average, tend to EXPRESS higher levels of empathy and sympathy than males in circumstances of concern to them. This expression seems to have a behavioral impact. As a result, some hold that females tend to be less likely on average to victimize others and engage in anti-social behavior. Those with strong family bonds are also less likely to express empathy and more likely to engage in anti-social behavior or delinquency. (Deflem 2006).

    correct read above-
    “Those with strong family bonds are also MORE likely to express empathy and LESS likely to engage in anti-social behavior or delinquency. (Deflem 2006).”

    ——————————————-

    Anon says:
    However I’d say there were two liberal “types”.

    1) People who have too much affective empathy so it becomes pathological and they try to save the world even at the expense of their own kin.

    2) Manipulators who have very low amounts of affective empathy themselves but realise that because other people have it they can guilt-trip them. A prime modern example would be the politician praising mass immigration and diversity while they themselves live in gated all-white communities.

    Well among the tens of millions of people who label themselves “liberals” this might apply to some individuals. But the same pattern can apply to some who label themselves “conservatives.”

    1) People who have so high a degree of affective empathy for their closed circle of kin, that they would seek to attack or intimidate anyone or anything seen threatening, even when not remotely so.

    b) Manipulators who “guilt-trip” people into feeling negative about helping others or to hold back expressions against unfair dealings or situations. Hence in the Jim Crow South some whites who dealt fairly with blacks were sometimes scorned or considered “weaklings.” Some empathetic white school teachers after the Civil War for example who attempted to teach blacks were persecuted and driven out. It is interesting that CONSERVATIVE Booker T Washington praised such empathetic schoolteachers for their service, though elsewhere they were attacked, and some even killed.

    .
    while they themselves live in gated all-white communities.

    This too could be likened to conservative CEOs or politicians who express empathy for the plight of workers, feeling their pain and so on, yet continue to encourage policies that actually outsource many of the jobs said workers depend on overseas. But agreed re above. “Limousine liberals” are famous for this type of selective empathy.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @anon
    If the root cause is the mother-child relationship women ought to have higher affective empathy (on average).

    It would reflect a very early specialization / division of labor.

    Yes, there is some data out there that shows women do have higher levels of empathy, but huge differences in actual behavior (emphatic responding) do not readily emerge in studies. The higher female pattern is somewhat dependent on the measurement technique used. For example, the largest gender differences emerge when females and males rate their own empathetic responses, where the subjects are aware they are being observed. Nevertheless the bottom line is that females do on average, tend to EXPRESS higher levels of empathy and sympathy than males in circumstances of concern to them. This expression seems to have a behavioral impact. As a result, some hold that females tend to be less likely on average to victimize others and engage in anti-social behavior. Those with strong family bonds are also less likely to express empathy and more likely to engage in anti-social behavior or delinquency. (Deflem 2006).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Enrique Cardova
    correct read above-
    "Those with strong family bonds are also MORE likely to express empathy and LESS likely to engage in anti-social behavior or delinquency. (Deflem 2006)."

    -------------------------------------------

    Anon says:
    However I’d say there were two liberal “types”.

    1) People who have too much affective empathy so it becomes pathological and they try to save the world even at the expense of their own kin.

    2) Manipulators who have very low amounts of affective empathy themselves but realise that because other people have it they can guilt-trip them. A prime modern example would be the politician praising mass immigration and diversity while they themselves live in gated all-white communities.

    Well among the tens of millions of people who label themselves "liberals" this might apply to some individuals. But the same pattern can apply to some who label themselves "conservatives."

    1) People who have so high a degree of affective empathy for their closed circle of kin, that they would seek to attack or intimidate anyone or anything seen threatening, even when not remotely so.

    b) Manipulators who "guilt-trip" people into feeling negative about helping others or to hold back expressions against unfair dealings or situations. Hence in the Jim Crow South some whites who dealt fairly with blacks were sometimes scorned or considered "weaklings." Some empathetic white school teachers after the Civil War for example who attempted to teach blacks were persecuted and driven out. It is interesting that CONSERVATIVE Booker T Washington praised such empathetic schoolteachers for their service, though elsewhere they were attacked, and some even killed.

    .
    while they themselves live in gated all-white communities.

    This too could be likened to conservative CEOs or politicians who express empathy for the plight of workers, feeling their pain and so on, yet continue to encourage policies that actually outsource many of the jobs said workers depend on overseas. But agreed re above. "Limousine liberals" are famous for this type of selective empathy.

    , @anon
    Yes it can be double-edged. If a woman has more empathy but it's extremely focused on her own kids it can make them colder to other people's.

    I think there's a lot of complexity in all this because of the interplay of different genes - say both cog and affective can vary on a ten point scale then an individual might be 1/10 or 10/1 or 5/3 etc and their behavior will vary accordingly - but the foundation of it is well described in the article.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Art seems to be under the impression that the meaning of words is static. Or perhaps he’s just contentious by nature.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • anon • Disclaimer says:

    It’s possible to have both.

    If you have the hunter’s empathy combined with the originally maternal kind then the first kind lets you spot weakness but the second kind stops you exploiting it

    for example you can spot a mile off if a good looking girl is upset over something but you can’t take advantage of it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    If a man has the cognitive empathy to understand a girl's feelings and he gets her to believe that he is in love with her and always will be, then that does not entail him actually being in love, or having affective empathy.

    Through her affective empathy a woman may be fooled into being in love (and seduced) by the man dissimulating that he is in love, when he is not.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • anon • Disclaimer says:

    On the liberal / conservative thing I think there is a connection to be drawn but it’s threeway rather than two.

    There is a standard conservative “type” who is “normally” empathetic i.e. they have it in such a quantity that is kin-first – not kin-only but first – so they’ll help out strangers but not if kin need the help.

    However I’d say there were two liberal “types”.

    1) People who have too much affective empathy so it becomes pathological and they try to save the world even at the expense of their own kin.

    2) Manipulators who have very low amounts of affective empathy themselves but realise that because other people have it they can guilt-trip them. A prime modern example would be the politician praising mass immigration and diversity while they themselves live in gated all-white communities.

    .

    (greatly over simplified but with a grain of truth imo)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Art

    Cognitive empathy appears to be the evolutionarily older component of the two. It is the capacity to understand how another person is feeling and then predict how different actions will affect that person’s emotional state. But this capacity can be used for selfish purposes. Examples are legion: the con artist; many telemarketers; the rapist who knows how to charm his victims …
     
    This is hog wash - apes have natural empathy - all kinds of animals exhibit empathy.

    The notion expressed in this "cognitive empathy" is an oxymoron. Language is being perverted - empathy without caring is not empathy. Please find some other way of explanation. Just say "false empathy."

    The notion expressed in this “cognitive empathy” is an oxymoron. Language is being perverted – empathy without caring is not empathy. Please find some other way of explanation. Just say “false empathy.”

    Think of it as hunter’s empathy – it’s a tool to help you kill – while the originally maternal kind is to stop you killing.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @AG
    Does crying over sad movie count as affective empathy? Does that mean women have higher degree of affective empathy?


    Characters by Sylvester Stallone and John Wayne look very much psychopathic (or just lack of emotion).

    If the root cause is the mother-child relationship women ought to have higher affective empathy (on average).

    It would reflect a very early specialization / division of labor.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Enrique Cardova
    Yes, there is some data out there that shows women do have higher levels of empathy, but huge differences in actual behavior (emphatic responding) do not readily emerge in studies. The higher female pattern is somewhat dependent on the measurement technique used. For example, the largest gender differences emerge when females and males rate their own empathetic responses, where the subjects are aware they are being observed. Nevertheless the bottom line is that females do on average, tend to EXPRESS higher levels of empathy and sympathy than males in circumstances of concern to them. This expression seems to have a behavioral impact. As a result, some hold that females tend to be less likely on average to victimize others and engage in anti-social behavior. Those with strong family bonds are also less likely to express empathy and more likely to engage in anti-social behavior or delinquency. (Deflem 2006).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    Art,

    It's important to distinguish between cognitive empathy and affective empathy, and words must be found to make that distinction. When you deprive other people of words --- for whatever reason --- it becomes harder to reason coherently. This is why ideologies seek to eliminate words or change their meanings beyond recognition. When you deprive people of words, the process of reasoning is disrupted, sometimes irreparably.

    When we are young, our parents pull empathy out of us

    I'm sorry but you are mistaken. Parents can do a lot but they cannot teach empathy. What they can teach is pro-social behavior -- a willingness to help others and contribute to the community. But it's not really the same thing as affective empathy. People perceive pro-social behavior either as a moral duty or as a form of enlightened self-interest. Affective empathy is an emotional response -- you actually feel the pain or joy of the other person.

    Art: When we are young, our parents pull empathy out of us

    Frost: I’m sorry but you are mistaken. Parents can do a lot but they cannot teach empathy.

    May I disagree with you. I do not know if at birth there is a corner of the brain that is labeled “empathy.”

    But what parts of the child’s brain that is being activated, is most defiantly dependent on parents and environment.

    When parents read empathic stories to small children, they are imprinting their valued emotions on the child.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @random observer
    It's not that I don't appreciate the idea that in common usage, to the extent the term or idea empathy even is in everyday use distinct from sympathy, empathy implies what Peter Frost calls "affective empathy". I also assume caring. It's just that it doesn't seem to be the only or the most generic definition.

    On that note, the wiki you cite gives four variations of a definition of empathy, only the first of which necessarily includes "caring", at least as written in that excerpt. The second includes recognizing and mirroring emotions, which is not at all the same thing. The other two can imply but do not require 'emotional' connection. All of these as written describe cognitive processes, which is not a term that requires either the presence or absence of emotion. EMotion is a cognitive process.

    Words describe whole things – the thing being described has many attributes. A car is a wagon with wheels, a drive train, and a steering wheel – if you take away any one of those attributes – it is no longer car.

    Empathy is an caring emotion that is triggered by the plight of someone else. Caring, emotion, triggered, plight – defines empathy. If you take out “caring” – it is no longer empathy.

    p..s. “The second includes recognizing and mirroring emotions” – sorry but that is not empathy. Dictionaries publish word usage – both right usage and poor usage.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    Enrique has a lot more cognitive empathy than those who give him the off topic rejoinders he craves. He is playing them for fools.

    If I were to set up a pay-per-view situation… Would you and Enrique both agree to step into the octagon for a no holds barred cage match?

    Enrique’s prize money would go to a charity of his choice!

    With your lower degree of empathy, Sean…you could just pocket your share

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    I recall reading - and I'm afraid I don't remember where - that people who are conservative show up more frequently at the IQ extremes.

    I'm not sure if there is any truth to this.

    Enrique has a lot more cognitive empathy than those who give him the off topic rejoinders he craves. He is playing them for fools.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    If I were to set up a pay-per-view situation... Would you and Enrique both agree to step into the octagon for a no holds barred cage match?

    Enrique's prize money would go to a charity of his choice!

    With your lower degree of empathy, Sean...you could just pocket your share
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Enrique Cardova
    Jim says:
    Southern whites tend to have somewhat lower average IQ’s than northern whites but the low average IQ’s of southern states is almost entirely due to the higher black population of these states.

    The presence of the blacks makes no difference. When other races data are removed and southern whites (before the substantial regional migrations of other whites from outside the south after WW2) are compared to northern whites, southern whites have clearly lower IQs than northern whites. (Montagu 1972). This tracks with Kanazawa's data showing liberals having significantly higher IQs than conservatives. Liberals tend to be located more north, and conservatives more south on average. Such "labels" can fluctuate over time. Other data (Hodson and Busseri (2012) show lower IQ is associated with both socially conservative and more racist views.
    http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html


    Peter's post notes that empathy is to be expected with near kin or ethnic tribesmen. Nothing surprising there. But some northern Europeans also show a significant capacity for empathy. Note Peter's data above. Kanai et al and Schreiber et al, found that conservatives tend to have a larger right amygdala, associated more with threat and fear-driven responses. Liberals on the average have larger and more active anterior cingulate cortex, or ACC, associated with more better engagement with informational complexity, ambiguity and novelty. Empathy towards more distant persons, rather than trusted kin in the local area would tend to involve this capacity for more complexity and novelty, and openness to new experiences.

    But this is not the whole story, for northern Europeans can also be quite liberal as well, including those inside the Hajnal line. In fact some are possibly the most liberal populations on earth at the present time and are pacesetters in numerous novel societal changes such as gay marriage. In short, high liberalism is well represented in areas with high affective empathy, and this is demonstrated both by the brain scan data, and the socio-political data showing high levels of relative liberalism among the Hajnal "core" northern Europeans. (Note- this "core" grouping excludes much of Scotland, Wales and Ireland).

    Other data confirms this general pattern. Dodd et al 2012 found that conservatives showed greater physiological responses to threatening images and liberals were more responsive to positive images. Dawes et al 2012 found that tendencies toward egalitarian and altruistic behavior correlated with the activation of the left anterior insula associated with empathy and a sense of fairness- such as rejecting unfair offers- and in situations involving admiration and compassion (Immorodino-Yang et al 2009, Mercadillo et al 2011). See book- Emotion: A Biosocial Synthesis By Ross Buck for a roundup of these studies).

    There are key qualifiers to the above noted by some scholars (lets see who spots them first) and Peter's observations on the mediating role of religion in shaping affective empathy is also important The poster above who dismissed the influence of Christianity could not be more wrong.

    I recall reading – and I’m afraid I don’t remember where – that people who are conservative show up more frequently at the IQ extremes.

    I’m not sure if there is any truth to this.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    Enrique has a lot more cognitive empathy than those who give him the off topic rejoinders he craves. He is playing them for fools.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Cognitive empathy is for actually recognizing the other’s emotion, not just believing you do; what use would a faculty for forming beliefs about others’ mental states be unless it gave one accurate information? In a society where everyone followed the rules (because they had affective empathy) suspicion about other people’s motives would not be particularly useful, and might easily get one a reputation for being heartless.

    “With affective empathy you experience the emotion you believe the other person is having”. And hence without sufficient cognitive empathy to accurately determine whether emotion is being faked you can be fooled into acting on a false belief about the other’s emotion. So are those with affective empathy just as good at reading people, or are the affectively empathetic easier to fool?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • It’s not effective empathy, it’s affective empathy. “Affect” here does not mean ‘to have an effect on,’ it instead refers to an outwardly expressed emotion. With affective empathy you experience the emotion you believe the other person is having, with cognitive empathy you believe you recognize the other’s emotion, but you don’t necessarily experience it yourself. Try looking up ‘labile affect.’

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Is it possible affective empathy uses brain resources that otherwise go to cognitive empathy, and those with the most affective empathy lack cognitive empathy? In other words, they can’t detect when they are being taken for a ride.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    That is a flagrant, flaming, grotesque lie.
    No such thing has been said or written by "mainstream historians" - or indeed any person outside a small circle of pathological fantasists.
    Unz.com should implement strict censorship of any variants of holocaust denialism, including the "But Hitler didn't know" version of it.

    Thus strikes Enrique.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver
    "Be specific," you say. Okay then. There's no evidence that Hitler ordered any holocaust - a point conceded by mainstream holocaust historians - or indeed that he had any knowledge of such. Specific enough for you?

    That is a flagrant, flaming, grotesque lie.
    No such thing has been said or written by “mainstream historians” – or indeed any person outside a small circle of pathological fantasists.
    Unz.com should implement strict censorship of any variants of holocaust denialism, including the “But Hitler didn’t know” version of it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    Thus strikes Enrique.
    , @SFG
    I thought the whole point of Unz was to avoid strict censorship of any kind...

    I mean, I think the Holocaust denial thing is stupid, but I'm not going to convince these guys, so I just ignore it. The evidence is strong enough on its own for any curious person who wants to check.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Pat Casey
    I don't want to give too much up, bc I am writing a book, but you should really consider the Irish on this count. I'm no expert mind you, but as of yet its very odd that the Irish Gaels are evidently Gaelic byway of Basque country. As in, its not clear how these people got Gaelic names. Particularly when you consider the friendly migration and trade routes between Ireland and Spain from 16th century up. The two nations got along unusually well. But on the point of empathy, don't discount how American your perspective necessarily is. Something so nebulous its nearly grotesque stalks around this continent thinking on whatever level that its the white race. Yeah, ok. What you find is that, Jews are only comfortable with Jews, Brits are dissolving unless they're in a pack, Germans are hearty and noble in general, Irish and Germans are pally, and Scotch-Irish are backward unless elite. The ideal of America is the mongrolization of the races. "Empathy" is only a thing that needs studying in america. Go to Ireland and ask somebody about studying empathy and they'll think you're righting a novel. Families empathize bc its a given. Harder to do that with strangers. But damn learned essay.

    “Empathy” is only a thing that needs studying in america. Go to Ireland and ask somebody about studying empathy and they’ll think you’re righting a novel.

    Well the traditional Irish are known as intensely tribal- indeed employers in the US sometimes had had to use different work crews to separate employees from different warring clans or districts. But here again is where the mediating influence of Christianity comes into play, enabling affective empathy over a broader range, rather than stay within the bounds of the usual kin or clan.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art

    Wiki ---- Empathy has many different definitions that encompass a broad range of emotional states, including caring for other people and having a desire to help them; experiencing emotions that match another person's emotions; discerning what another person is thinking or feeling;[6] and making less distinct the differences between the self and the other.
     
    Words have consequences – their meanings have relevance. Language can be abused.

    The term “cognitive empathy” is an abuse of language. In the paragraph Reed describes a situations of false empathy or dishonest empathy – but uses the word “cognitive” – the word cognitive has no positive or negative connotation to it – positive or negative is not part of its definition.

    Words have attributes – words need other words to define them, their attributes give them clarity. Surly two of the defining words of “empathy” are caring and emotion. Is it really possible to be empathic without emotion? There is an emotion that goes along with everything that is important. Some emotion is behind every human action. Empathy is a process in the mind – neurons are clicking – part of the process is the takeover of our emotions by our cognitive functions.

    Do we really need the term "effective empathy?"

    p.s. Does Reed take out our nurturing human element with all this talk about genetics and brains – is he making us out to be automatons of our genetics – is he giving no credit to nurture. When we are young, our parents pull empathy out of us, they put a value on empathy, they instill in us good empathic character.

    It’s not that I don’t appreciate the idea that in common usage, to the extent the term or idea empathy even is in everyday use distinct from sympathy, empathy implies what Peter Frost calls “affective empathy”. I also assume caring. It’s just that it doesn’t seem to be the only or the most generic definition.

    On that note, the wiki you cite gives four variations of a definition of empathy, only the first of which necessarily includes “caring”, at least as written in that excerpt. The second includes recognizing and mirroring emotions, which is not at all the same thing. The other two can imply but do not require ‘emotional’ connection. All of these as written describe cognitive processes, which is not a term that requires either the presence or absence of emotion. EMotion is a cognitive process.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    Words describe whole things – the thing being described has many attributes. A car is a wagon with wheels, a drive train, and a steering wheel – if you take away any one of those attributes – it is no longer car.

    Empathy is an caring emotion that is triggered by the plight of someone else. Caring, emotion, triggered, plight - defines empathy. If you take out “caring” – it is no longer empathy.

    p..s. "The second includes recognizing and mirroring emotions" - sorry but that is not empathy. Dictionaries publish word usage – both right usage and poor usage.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Enrique Cardova
    Jim says:
    Southern whites tend to have somewhat lower average IQ’s than northern whites but the low average IQ’s of southern states is almost entirely due to the higher black population of these states.

    The presence of the blacks makes no difference. When other races data are removed and southern whites (before the substantial regional migrations of other whites from outside the south after WW2) are compared to northern whites, southern whites have clearly lower IQs than northern whites. (Montagu 1972). This tracks with Kanazawa's data showing liberals having significantly higher IQs than conservatives. Liberals tend to be located more north, and conservatives more south on average. Such "labels" can fluctuate over time. Other data (Hodson and Busseri (2012) show lower IQ is associated with both socially conservative and more racist views.
    http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html


    Peter's post notes that empathy is to be expected with near kin or ethnic tribesmen. Nothing surprising there. But some northern Europeans also show a significant capacity for empathy. Note Peter's data above. Kanai et al and Schreiber et al, found that conservatives tend to have a larger right amygdala, associated more with threat and fear-driven responses. Liberals on the average have larger and more active anterior cingulate cortex, or ACC, associated with more better engagement with informational complexity, ambiguity and novelty. Empathy towards more distant persons, rather than trusted kin in the local area would tend to involve this capacity for more complexity and novelty, and openness to new experiences.

    But this is not the whole story, for northern Europeans can also be quite liberal as well, including those inside the Hajnal line. In fact some are possibly the most liberal populations on earth at the present time and are pacesetters in numerous novel societal changes such as gay marriage. In short, high liberalism is well represented in areas with high affective empathy, and this is demonstrated both by the brain scan data, and the socio-political data showing high levels of relative liberalism among the Hajnal "core" northern Europeans. (Note- this "core" grouping excludes much of Scotland, Wales and Ireland).

    Other data confirms this general pattern. Dodd et al 2012 found that conservatives showed greater physiological responses to threatening images and liberals were more responsive to positive images. Dawes et al 2012 found that tendencies toward egalitarian and altruistic behavior correlated with the activation of the left anterior insula associated with empathy and a sense of fairness- such as rejecting unfair offers- and in situations involving admiration and compassion (Immorodino-Yang et al 2009, Mercadillo et al 2011). See book- Emotion: A Biosocial Synthesis By Ross Buck for a roundup of these studies).

    There are key qualifiers to the above noted by some scholars (lets see who spots them first) and Peter's observations on the mediating role of religion in shaping affective empathy is also important The poster above who dismissed the influence of Christianity could not be more wrong.

    Southern whites’ IQ Enrique; what, prey tell, has that got to do with the post? You, not Jim, first brought the subject of the South up . How about you drop it first, eh?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art

    Wiki ---- Empathy has many different definitions that encompass a broad range of emotional states, including caring for other people and having a desire to help them; experiencing emotions that match another person's emotions; discerning what another person is thinking or feeling;[6] and making less distinct the differences between the self and the other.
     
    Words have consequences – their meanings have relevance. Language can be abused.

    The term “cognitive empathy” is an abuse of language. In the paragraph Reed describes a situations of false empathy or dishonest empathy – but uses the word “cognitive” – the word cognitive has no positive or negative connotation to it – positive or negative is not part of its definition.

    Words have attributes – words need other words to define them, their attributes give them clarity. Surly two of the defining words of “empathy” are caring and emotion. Is it really possible to be empathic without emotion? There is an emotion that goes along with everything that is important. Some emotion is behind every human action. Empathy is a process in the mind – neurons are clicking – part of the process is the takeover of our emotions by our cognitive functions.

    Do we really need the term "effective empathy?"

    p.s. Does Reed take out our nurturing human element with all this talk about genetics and brains – is he making us out to be automatons of our genetics – is he giving no credit to nurture. When we are young, our parents pull empathy out of us, they put a value on empathy, they instill in us good empathic character.

    It could be said that parents lay the FRAMEWORK of empathy. They can’t teach it directly but whether in teaching about the golden rule, or social norms such as refraining from insults, etc, and in teaching religion, they lay the groundwork for the emergence of empathy later on. Different cultures would have different angles, or may be more directed towards close kin or tribe, but generally all societies and their parents want to instill some sort of framework.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Jim says:
    Southern whites tend to have somewhat lower average IQ’s than northern whites but the low average IQ’s of southern states is almost entirely due to the higher black population of these states.

    The presence of the blacks makes no difference. When other races data are removed and southern whites (before the substantial regional migrations of other whites from outside the south after WW2) are compared to northern whites, southern whites have clearly lower IQs than northern whites. (Montagu 1972). This tracks with Kanazawa’s data showing liberals having significantly higher IQs than conservatives. Liberals tend to be located more north, and conservatives more south on average. Such “labels” can fluctuate over time. Other data (Hodson and Busseri (2012) show lower IQ is associated with both socially conservative and more racist views.

    http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html

    Peter’s post notes that empathy is to be expected with near kin or ethnic tribesmen. Nothing surprising there. But some northern Europeans also show a significant capacity for empathy. Note Peter’s data above. Kanai et al and Schreiber et al, found that conservatives tend to have a larger right amygdala, associated more with threat and fear-driven responses. Liberals on the average have larger and more active anterior cingulate cortex, or ACC, associated with more better engagement with informational complexity, ambiguity and novelty. Empathy towards more distant persons, rather than trusted kin in the local area would tend to involve this capacity for more complexity and novelty, and openness to new experiences.

    But this is not the whole story, for northern Europeans can also be quite liberal as well, including those inside the Hajnal line. In fact some are possibly the most liberal populations on earth at the present time and are pacesetters in numerous novel societal changes such as gay marriage. In short, high liberalism is well represented in areas with high affective empathy, and this is demonstrated both by the brain scan data, and the socio-political data showing high levels of relative liberalism among the Hajnal “core” northern Europeans. (Note- this “core” grouping excludes much of Scotland, Wales and Ireland).

    Other data confirms this general pattern. Dodd et al 2012 found that conservatives showed greater physiological responses to threatening images and liberals were more responsive to positive images. Dawes et al 2012 found that tendencies toward egalitarian and altruistic behavior correlated with the activation of the left anterior insula associated with empathy and a sense of fairness- such as rejecting unfair offers- and in situations involving admiration and compassion (Immorodino-Yang et al 2009, Mercadillo et al 2011). See book- Emotion: A Biosocial Synthesis By Ross Buck for a roundup of these studies).

    There are key qualifiers to the above noted by some scholars (lets see who spots them first) and Peter’s observations on the mediating role of religion in shaping affective empathy is also important The poster above who dismissed the influence of Christianity could not be more wrong.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    Southern whites' IQ Enrique; what, prey tell, has that got to do with the post? You, not Jim, first brought the subject of the South up . How about you drop it first, eh?
    , @Anonymous
    I recall reading - and I'm afraid I don't remember where - that people who are conservative show up more frequently at the IQ extremes.

    I'm not sure if there is any truth to this.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Mr. Frost – I apologize for confusing you with Mr. Reed – Sorry – Art

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Art says:
    @Peter Frost
    Art,

    It's important to distinguish between cognitive empathy and affective empathy, and words must be found to make that distinction. When you deprive other people of words --- for whatever reason --- it becomes harder to reason coherently. This is why ideologies seek to eliminate words or change their meanings beyond recognition. When you deprive people of words, the process of reasoning is disrupted, sometimes irreparably.

    When we are young, our parents pull empathy out of us

    I'm sorry but you are mistaken. Parents can do a lot but they cannot teach empathy. What they can teach is pro-social behavior -- a willingness to help others and contribute to the community. But it's not really the same thing as affective empathy. People perceive pro-social behavior either as a moral duty or as a form of enlightened self-interest. Affective empathy is an emotional response -- you actually feel the pain or joy of the other person.

    Clearly we disagree – how can “feigned” empathy be described as “cognitive” empathy – it is just not logical. When emotional empathy passes into human action – it becomes cognitive empathy (cognitive, meaning thinking) – how can it be anything different. These distinctions – cognitive and effective, as different kinds of empathy – do not make logical sense.

    Nature nurture? Don’t most people have some natural empathy within them – don’t most people have some genetic makeup that manifests the emotion of empathy? We can agree that a small percentage of adults have little or no empathy for others. Why? Can it be – nature – nurture – or both?

    Pro-social behavior. Doesn’t empathy for life come first, before pro-social behavior?

    There are Christian Semitic peoples, and Muslim Semitic peoples, and Jewish Semitic peoples – they all have different cultures, but the same genetics – how does empathy play out among them?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Art,

    It’s important to distinguish between cognitive empathy and affective empathy, and words must be found to make that distinction. When you deprive other people of words — for whatever reason — it becomes harder to reason coherently. This is why ideologies seek to eliminate words or change their meanings beyond recognition. When you deprive people of words, the process of reasoning is disrupted, sometimes irreparably.

    When we are young, our parents pull empathy out of us

    I’m sorry but you are mistaken. Parents can do a lot but they cannot teach empathy. What they can teach is pro-social behavior — a willingness to help others and contribute to the community. But it’s not really the same thing as affective empathy. People perceive pro-social behavior either as a moral duty or as a form of enlightened self-interest. Affective empathy is an emotional response — you actually feel the pain or joy of the other person.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    Clearly we disagree – how can “feigned” empathy be described as “cognitive” empathy – it is just not logical. When emotional empathy passes into human action – it becomes cognitive empathy (cognitive, meaning thinking) – how can it be anything different. These distinctions - cognitive and effective, as different kinds of empathy - do not make logical sense.

    Nature nurture? Don’t most people have some natural empathy within them – don’t most people have some genetic makeup that manifests the emotion of empathy? We can agree that a small percentage of adults have little or no empathy for others. Why? Can it be - nature – nurture – or both?

    Pro-social behavior. Doesn’t empathy for life come first, before pro-social behavior?

    There are Christian Semitic peoples, and Muslim Semitic peoples, and Jewish Semitic peoples – they all have different cultures, but the same genetics - how does empathy play out among them?
    , @Art

    Art: When we are young, our parents pull empathy out of us

    Frost: I’m sorry but you are mistaken. Parents can do a lot but they cannot teach empathy.
     
    May I disagree with you. I do not know if at birth there is a corner of the brain that is labeled “empathy.”

    But what parts of the child’s brain that is being activated, is most defiantly dependent on parents and environment.

    When parents read empathic stories to small children, they are imprinting their valued emotions on the child.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @random observer
    OK, just read the author's 44. For the record, as I hope was clear, I am on the anti-Nazi side, but point well taken.

    On a more relevant note, I appreciate this clarifying summary of the evolutionary development of empathy in humans. I am less worried than some others by the prospect that an evolutionary or neurological understanding of empathy will undermine its more traditional 'moral' standing. I get it, as with other human qualities whose biological underpinnings are being explored, I'm just not sold by the idea that understanding will undermine practice.

    On that note, Art 42 made some interesting points although I didn't necessarily find them convincing either.

    "This is hog wash – apes have natural empathy – all kinds of animals exhibit empathy."

    I am interpreting the animal empathy to which Art refers as more akin to human's affective empathy. Is this a misunderstanding on my part and/or Art's? Perhaps by assuming too much 'emotion' for lack of a better term into what is just recognition of the other on the part of said animals?

    "The notion expressed in this “cognitive empathy” is an oxymoron. Language is being perverted – empathy without caring is not empathy. Please find some other way of explanation. Just say “false empathy.”

    Here I'm just going to leap out and say I don't think that's right. I thought empathy just meant recognition of the other as similar and ability to understand the other's predicament. We tend to use empathy as an extension of and expansion on sympathy- as understanding of the other's feelings as well as mere sympathy with them. That is to say, it goes beyond 'mere' sympathy and is therefore more or better than sympathy. I seem to remember that view being expressed in the past. But that's colloquial usage. Just as one can have sympathy without empathy [happens all the time, and is not to be spat on on that account], presumably one can have empathy without sympathy, ie. without 'caring'.

    Random Observer – Please see post 59 – it was for you – Art.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.