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    I do not dispute all the points in The Saker's recent piece Russia's "Civilizational Choice." The malevolent influence of Saudi-sponsored Wahhabism on traditional Islam throughout the world is a real phenomenon that is indeed much better known in Russia than in the West. That is because Western elites view it as a useful geopolitical tool...
  • @Glossy
    Yes.

    For a more accurate view you can also read Hayes:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlton_J._H._Hayes

    The founder of the study of nationalism was a reactionary Catholic, not some kind of post-modernist leftist.

    This essay is a nice one:

    http://www.panarchy.org/hayes/nationalism.html

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Glossy
    Yes.

    Well, at least you are consistent.

    Read More
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  • @Sean

    To the extent that Russia has any sort of big, semi-friendly, and actually useful “partner” on the international arena, it is China.
     
    China will dwarf Russia in a generation. Russia could choose to accept Chinese overlordship, or join an anti China western alliance, but Russia can not maintain its current situation in relation to China.

    Why not do the same as India and do neither?
    Especially the latter is quite unappealing.

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  • @Sean
    I already gave the link

    Since the creation of the Federal Republic in 1949, Bonn and then Berlin had sought to embed German security in an irreversible process of European political integration on the one side, and the maintenance and later expansion of NATO on the other.

    All that changed with the inclusion of Poland in both organisations. With a substantial buffer to the east, Germany reckons itself much less in need of the American security umbrella and the support of allies.
     

    Poland was out for what it could get. Well now it will be the victim of Germany's second Generalplan Ost

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/09/29/refugee-crisis-stokes-anti-muslim-fervor-in-poland-eastern-europe/

    Poland hasn't a leg to stand on as it took hardly any Ukrainian refugees. Now suddenly "Poland's prime minister says her government will take steps to bring in tens of thousands of ethnic Poles now living in Kazakhstan and Ukraine." http://www.fox10tv.com/story/30138088/the-latest-poland-to-host-refugees-from-ukraine-kazakhstan

    Too bloody late for that now, everyone knows Poland has plenty of room, because hundreds of thousands of their best people have left.

    Poland did greatly benefit from joining the EU.
    It would have been against national interest not to join the EU.

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  • @AP
    And the Drevlians who killed Ingvar/Igor and were slaughtered by Helga/Olga were Drevlian nationalists?

    Yes.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Well, at least you are consistent.
    , @AP
    For a more accurate view you can also read Hayes:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlton_J._H._Hayes

    The founder of the study of nationalism was a reactionary Catholic, not some kind of post-modernist leftist.

    This essay is a nice one:

    http://www.panarchy.org/hayes/nationalism.html

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Glossy
    So for example the Indian chieftain “King Phillip” who fought the English colonists was a Pequot Nationalist?

    Yes. He fought for his people.

    And the Drevlians who killed Ingvar/Igor and were slaughtered by Helga/Olga were Drevlian nationalists?

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    • Replies: @Glossy
    Yes.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Glossy
    The region of Russia that Scandinavians affected the most was the Novgorodian land. There's a unique window into medieval Novgorodian society: birch bark documents. Fragments of more than a thousand private letters from the 1000 AD - 1450 AD period were extracted from Novgorod's soil in the 20th century. The vast majority were in Russian. Some were in Old Church Slavonic.

    Here's a Russian wiki about the few that were written in other languages.

    Out of 1,065 documents from Novgorod 1 was in Karelian, 1 in Greek, 1 in Latin and 1 in German. About 100 birch bark documents were found outside of Novgorod. One of those was written in runes in Old Norse. It was found in Smolensk.

    So there you have it: less than 0.1% overall.

    1000 – 1450 AD is a long period of time. The Scandinavians Slavicized by around 1100. How many of the birch bark documents were from before 1100?

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  • @AP
    Why do you insist that I'm relying on some sort of po-mo deconstructivist view of nationalism?

    I encourage you to read John Lukacs sometime. He's a great writer:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lukacs

    in the real word it’s mostly just another word for tribalism
     
    So for example the Indian chieftain "King Phillip" who fought the English colonists was a Pequot Nationalist?

    How bizarre.

    So for example the Indian chieftain “King Phillip” who fought the English colonists was a Pequot Nationalist?

    Yes. He fought for his people.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    And the Drevlians who killed Ingvar/Igor and were slaughtered by Helga/Olga were Drevlian nationalists?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @AP
    Of course, they assimilated eventually. The question is when, and the likely answer isn't what Russian or Ukrainian nationalists want to hear: sometime in the 11th century. After Vladimir and after Yaroslav.

    As far as I know, all the literature surviving from medieval Rus is in the East Slavic language. Is there even a single document from Rus in early Swedish or any form of Norse?
     
    I'm not sure if the Scandinavians were producing much of the literature; they didn't seem to be dominant among churchmen. Yaroslav's laws, written for the people and the state, were in Slavic but the content of the laws was typically Scandinavian.

    However a lot of runes have been found, some dating to as late as the 11th century:

    http://www.arild-hauge.com/ru-e-rusland.htm

    There is also very little provable Norse influence on Old East Slavic, beyond a few loanwords. This suggests that, even if the leaders of Rus were Scandinavian by origin, they assimilated to the local culture rather quickly.

     

    Well, we know that they maintained a largely pure Scandinavian bloodline for ~150 years, were regularly bringing in Varangians until the 11th century, sometimes going into exile in Scandinavia, finding wives there, created a set of laws that were Scandinavian in type, etc. These facts suggest that a Scandinavian identity did exist at least until 1100 or so, which is most of the period of Old Rus.

    You are correct that these rulers, who were mostly focused on trade (Old Rus has been compared to a sort of Hudson's Bay company whose purpose was facilitating Scandinavians trading stuff taken from Slavs in exchange for things from Byzantium or the Arab world), left little of their own cultural impact on the natives. The biggest impact of these Scandinavian invaders/rulers was that they forced the Orthodox faith on the Slavs whom they ruled.

    The region of Russia that Scandinavians affected the most was the Novgorodian land. There’s a unique window into medieval Novgorodian society: birch bark documents. Fragments of more than a thousand private letters from the 1000 AD – 1450 AD period were extracted from Novgorod’s soil in the 20th century. The vast majority were in Russian. Some were in Old Church Slavonic.

    Here’s a Russian wiki about the few that were written in other languages.

    Out of 1,065 documents from Novgorod 1 was in Karelian, 1 in Greek, 1 in Latin and 1 in German. About 100 birch bark documents were found outside of Novgorod. One of those was written in runes in Old Norse. It was found in Smolensk.

    So there you have it: less than 0.1% overall.

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    • Replies: @AP
    1000 - 1450 AD is a long period of time. The Scandinavians Slavicized by around 1100. How many of the birch bark documents were from before 1100?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Glossy
    This is a very broad definition of “nationalism”, conflating it with some sort of tribalism.

    I neither know nor care how po-mo deconstuctivist "historians" define nationalism, but in the real word it's mostly just another word for tribalism. The key feature is preferring one's own kin.

    Why do you insist that I’m relying on some sort of po-mo deconstructivist view of nationalism?

    I encourage you to read John Lukacs sometime. He’s a great writer:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lukacs

    in the real word it’s mostly just another word for tribalism

    So for example the Indian chieftain “King Phillip” who fought the English colonists was a Pequot Nationalist?

    How bizarre.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    So for example the Indian chieftain “King Phillip” who fought the English colonists was a Pequot Nationalist?

    Yes. He fought for his people.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SWSpires
    A brief point about assimilation of elites and the Rus situation. Often the minority conqueror assimilates to the much larger conquered population. This was the case in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, where the official language was not Lithuanian but a form of East Slavic (sometimes called Ruthenian), and where the pagan Lithuanian elite gradually merged with the Orthodox Slavic one. It was also the case in Imperial China, where the Manchu conquerors adopted Chinese culture (while maintaining some records in Manchu language), and in Norman England (where French was the elite language for a couple of centuries, eventually replaced by English).

    As far as I know, all the literature surviving from medieval Rus is in the East Slavic language. Is there even a single document from Rus in early Swedish or any form of Norse? There is also very little provable Norse influence on Old East Slavic, beyond a few loanwords. This suggests that, even if the leaders of Rus were Scandinavian by origin, they assimilated to the local culture rather quickly. The influence of Orthodox Christianity was certainly a decisive factor, as was the case in Lithuania.

    Of course, they assimilated eventually. The question is when, and the likely answer isn’t what Russian or Ukrainian nationalists want to hear: sometime in the 11th century. After Vladimir and after Yaroslav.

    As far as I know, all the literature surviving from medieval Rus is in the East Slavic language. Is there even a single document from Rus in early Swedish or any form of Norse?

    I’m not sure if the Scandinavians were producing much of the literature; they didn’t seem to be dominant among churchmen. Yaroslav’s laws, written for the people and the state, were in Slavic but the content of the laws was typically Scandinavian.

    However a lot of runes have been found, some dating to as late as the 11th century:

    http://www.arild-hauge.com/ru-e-rusland.htm

    There is also very little provable Norse influence on Old East Slavic, beyond a few loanwords. This suggests that, even if the leaders of Rus were Scandinavian by origin, they assimilated to the local culture rather quickly.

    Well, we know that they maintained a largely pure Scandinavian bloodline for ~150 years, were regularly bringing in Varangians until the 11th century, sometimes going into exile in Scandinavia, finding wives there, created a set of laws that were Scandinavian in type, etc. These facts suggest that a Scandinavian identity did exist at least until 1100 or so, which is most of the period of Old Rus.

    You are correct that these rulers, who were mostly focused on trade (Old Rus has been compared to a sort of Hudson’s Bay company whose purpose was facilitating Scandinavians trading stuff taken from Slavs in exchange for things from Byzantium or the Arab world), left little of their own cultural impact on the natives. The biggest impact of these Scandinavian invaders/rulers was that they forced the Orthodox faith on the Slavs whom they ruled.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    The region of Russia that Scandinavians affected the most was the Novgorodian land. There's a unique window into medieval Novgorodian society: birch bark documents. Fragments of more than a thousand private letters from the 1000 AD - 1450 AD period were extracted from Novgorod's soil in the 20th century. The vast majority were in Russian. Some were in Old Church Slavonic.

    Here's a Russian wiki about the few that were written in other languages.

    Out of 1,065 documents from Novgorod 1 was in Karelian, 1 in Greek, 1 in Latin and 1 in German. About 100 birch bark documents were found outside of Novgorod. One of those was written in runes in Old Norse. It was found in Smolensk.

    So there you have it: less than 0.1% overall.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Seriously it sounds like Russia has a similar relationship with Islam as China or any other society that has had Muslims for a long time does with Islam – okay with the moderate kind but not with the Wahhabi stuff.

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  • To the extent that Russia has any sort of big, semi-friendly, and actually useful “partner” on the international arena, it is China.

    China will dwarf Russia in a generation. Russia could choose to accept Chinese overlordship, or join an anti China western alliance, but Russia can not maintain its current situation in relation to China.

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    • Replies: @Mitleser
    Why not do the same as India and do neither?
    Especially the latter is quite unappealing.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anatoly Karlin

    How widespread are such attitudes in modern Russia toward the Roman Catholic Church? Is Saker typical?
     
    Not typical. Though the vast majority of Russians are nominally Orthodox, they are either Lukashenko-like atheist-but-Orthodox-atheist or hew to a very loose and informal interpretation of it that limits itself to having a small icon in their car and visiting the Church once a year. Religion has little bearing on their political/foreign policy attitudes.

    There are few Russians who are deeply Orthodox. I am not knowledgeable on these issues in any great detail but my cursory impression is that Catholic and R. Orthodox positions on social issues align the great majority of the time. The Vatican also (again in my impression) attempts to steer clear of overtly political issues issues when dealing with the Orthodox, which differentiates it from the Western world at large, both secular and Protestant. The main stumbling block it appears to me is the Catholic insistence on is taking the "primus inter pares" principle and running amok with it. But this is literally a millennial issue.

    Thanks for your reply, Anatoly. That’s about what I was thinking. I have never been to Russia, but pretty much all of the Russian émigrés I have dealt with are secular or atheist–that goes for both the Christians and the Jews. I guess Saker’s worldview is a function of his White/Czarist heritage.

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  • @Bartolo
    Karlin is brilliant in his utter, ruthless, fact based and logic and methodical refutation of The Saker´s downright bizarre article on "Russia´s civilizational choice". What a beating, I hope The Saker is not hurting too much.

    Make no mistake: I actually am a fan of The Saker, who is a good read even when he is wrong. But when I read his article on Russia´s civilizational choice, I had the very distinct feeling I had just read a load of bullshit. Why would a very intelligent man write such sheer nonsense?

    Well, Karlin confirms my intuition: "feelz over realz". The saker is emotional about mother Russia.

    But I would add, to the fear of being alone advanced by Karlin, the (totally justified) feeling of being spurned and treated badly by the West. An urge to say: "you can´t isolate me, I have friends". When kids have this feeling, they at least have the good sense of inventing an "imaginary friend". It sure beats believing Muslims are your friends...

    Two other problems with the saker:

    (1) He seems to be totally ignorant of HBD. A blank slatist.

    (2) He keeps speaking about "racists" in France (and Europe). Who is he talking about? Sure, the NPD and Jobbik are racist. But the Front National? For god´s sake, the French are a European people that will become a minority on its own soil (in births) in less than 8 years. French nationalists don´t hate anyone, they want to keep their country and their way of life, and they get massive flak from the globalist elites in their country for doing so (who collaborate with the Saker´s beloved AngloZionists). And the Saker keeps calling them racists. On and on. This is worst than his cognitives failings caused by understandable emotion. This is a moral failing, possibly a wicked attempt to "triangulate". Shame on him on that one.

    I’ve been following Saker for nearly two years, so I can probably answer your questions:

    (1) He seems to be totally ignorant of HBD. A blank slatist.

    He has never mentioned HBD while I’ve been following him, and does not seem to be a racialist. I would described him more as a culturalist or a civilizationalist.

    (2) He keeps speaking about “racists” in France (and Europe). Who is he talking about? Sure, the NPD and Jobbik are racist. But the Front National?

    He’s OK with Front National, because they’re opposed to/by the NWO. But his real favorites are Alain Soral (dissident rightist) and Dieudonné Mbala-Mbala (the black comedian who has been banned for Israel-bashing and his ‘quenelle’ gesture). He really hates Charlie Hebdo (‘Je ne suis pas Charlie!’ was his motto) and points out that their magazine spends most of its time bashing Moslems and Christians. One cartoonist who made of fun of Jews was fired. He would probably characterize the Charlie Hebdo people as racist.

    He has never mentioned Jobbik, Golden Dawn or any of the rest. I think it’s safe to say he’s not into HBD. All of this fits in well with his Orthodox reactionary worldview. Christian reactionaries typically give short shrift to genetics and emphasize culture/upbringing instead.

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  • @AP

    I suspect you will deny that you are a Russian nationalist?

    I’m neither Russian nor a nationalist.
     

    You are from Russia and repeat Russian nationalist myths.

    The original Romans saw themselves as a community sharing descent from Romulus, Remus and their followers. It was a simplification of the truth. And obviously, by late Republican times Rome became really, really multiethnic. The typical Germanic tribe saw itself as being descended from a particular founder. The Greeks traced their descent from Hellen, the early Slavs from Lech, Chech and Rus, the Jews traced their descent from Old Testament patriarchs, etc. The story of Noah’s flood goes on to describe how all the known peoples of the earth descended from Noah’s various grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
     
    This is a very broad definition of "nationalism", conflating it with some sort of tribalism.

    Constantine VII, a contemporary neutral observer, neither a Slav nor a Scandinavian, called him Sphendosthlavos.
     
    This also demonstrates that a Scandinavian had a Slavic name as well as a Scandinavian one. Note that such names were popular among Scandinavians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldemar

    Sviatoslav had two Scandinavian parents, a Scandinavian tutor as a child (suggesting active attempts by the parents to maintain his ethnic identify despite choosing a Slavic name). His son Vladimir was (likely) with a Scandinavian woman. Vladimir lived in exile in the North (suggesting he could speak his ancestors' language) and seized power using Varangian troops. His child Yaroslav was with a Scandinavian woman, Ragnhild; Yarsolav himself married a princess from Sweden.

    The idea that these people had a Slavic rather than Scandinavian identity is absurd.


    “The theory that she was a Slav seems to pushed by Ukrainian and Russian nationalists and is not widely accepted.”

    This story was “pushed” by the authors of the Primary Chronicle, Повесть временных лет, the earliest Russian history that has come down to us. It was written in the 11th and 12th centuries. The Primary Chronicle admits that Riurik and company were foreigners “from across the sea”. It’s not a Slavophile document. Actually, its story of the calling of Riurik to Novgorod is shockingly pro-Scandinavian. “Our land is rich, but there is no order in it. Come rule over us” – I’m paraphrasing. It’s THIS document that names Vladimir’s mother Malusha. It’s this document (actually a modern Russian translation) that I quoted above. And it’s the main primary source on her.
     

    And yet other than for a few Ukrainian and Russian nationalists with a story to tell, consensus is that Malusha was a Slavicised version of a Scandinavian name. Primary Chronicle also referred to Ingvar as Igor, did it not?

    The Scandinavians were always a small elite who had to communicate with the locals. The inflow of new Scandinavians, except for a few dynastic marriages, stopped around 1000 AD. They went native.
     
    According to Russian wiki the last mention of Varangian newcomers was in 1036 (which doesn't mean nobody ever came later). The small elite was somewhat insular and replenished with people from the homeland. British in India were probably more outnumbered than Scandinavians in Rus, yet I suspect most didn't even speak Hindi. We know the Scandinavians in Rus spoke the Slavic language of the natives as well as their own language.

    ” You’ve got a pure Scandinavian bloodline until the half-Scandinavian, half-Greek Vladimir Monomakh”

    Which reminds me that Monomakh left some Russian-language writings of his own.
     

    Sure. He ruled in the 12th century. And yet, the guy was half Scandinavian and married to a princess from Sweden. I suspect even his identity and that of his children wasn't fully Slavic.

    A brief point about assimilation of elites and the Rus situation. Often the minority conqueror assimilates to the much larger conquered population. This was the case in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, where the official language was not Lithuanian but a form of East Slavic (sometimes called Ruthenian), and where the pagan Lithuanian elite gradually merged with the Orthodox Slavic one. It was also the case in Imperial China, where the Manchu conquerors adopted Chinese culture (while maintaining some records in Manchu language), and in Norman England (where French was the elite language for a couple of centuries, eventually replaced by English).

    As far as I know, all the literature surviving from medieval Rus is in the East Slavic language. Is there even a single document from Rus in early Swedish or any form of Norse? There is also very little provable Norse influence on Old East Slavic, beyond a few loanwords. This suggests that, even if the leaders of Rus were Scandinavian by origin, they assimilated to the local culture rather quickly. The influence of Orthodox Christianity was certainly a decisive factor, as was the case in Lithuania.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Of course, they assimilated eventually. The question is when, and the likely answer isn't what Russian or Ukrainian nationalists want to hear: sometime in the 11th century. After Vladimir and after Yaroslav.

    As far as I know, all the literature surviving from medieval Rus is in the East Slavic language. Is there even a single document from Rus in early Swedish or any form of Norse?
     
    I'm not sure if the Scandinavians were producing much of the literature; they didn't seem to be dominant among churchmen. Yaroslav's laws, written for the people and the state, were in Slavic but the content of the laws was typically Scandinavian.

    However a lot of runes have been found, some dating to as late as the 11th century:

    http://www.arild-hauge.com/ru-e-rusland.htm

    There is also very little provable Norse influence on Old East Slavic, beyond a few loanwords. This suggests that, even if the leaders of Rus were Scandinavian by origin, they assimilated to the local culture rather quickly.

     

    Well, we know that they maintained a largely pure Scandinavian bloodline for ~150 years, were regularly bringing in Varangians until the 11th century, sometimes going into exile in Scandinavia, finding wives there, created a set of laws that were Scandinavian in type, etc. These facts suggest that a Scandinavian identity did exist at least until 1100 or so, which is most of the period of Old Rus.

    You are correct that these rulers, who were mostly focused on trade (Old Rus has been compared to a sort of Hudson's Bay company whose purpose was facilitating Scandinavians trading stuff taken from Slavs in exchange for things from Byzantium or the Arab world), left little of their own cultural impact on the natives. The biggest impact of these Scandinavian invaders/rulers was that they forced the Orthodox faith on the Slavs whom they ruled.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Mitleser
    What did Poland do against its national interests?

    I already gave the link

    Since the creation of the Federal Republic in 1949, Bonn and then Berlin had sought to embed German security in an irreversible process of European political integration on the one side, and the maintenance and later expansion of NATO on the other.

    All that changed with the inclusion of Poland in both organisations. With a substantial buffer to the east, Germany reckons itself much less in need of the American security umbrella and the support of allies.

    Poland was out for what it could get. Well now it will be the victim of Germany’s second Generalplan Ost

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/09/29/refugee-crisis-stokes-anti-muslim-fervor-in-poland-eastern-europe/

    Poland hasn’t a leg to stand on as it took hardly any Ukrainian refugees. Now suddenly “Poland’s prime minister says her government will take steps to bring in tens of thousands of ethnic Poles now living in Kazakhstan and Ukraine.” http://www.fox10tv.com/story/30138088/the-latest-poland-to-host-refugees-from-ukraine-kazakhstan

    Too bloody late for that now, everyone knows Poland has plenty of room, because hundreds of thousands of their best people have left.

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    • Replies: @Mitleser
    Poland did greatly benefit from joining the EU.
    It would have been against national interest not to join the EU.
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  • @Sean
    Mearsheimer was proved wrong over Ukraine in the same way he was proved right over Germany. Mearsheimer predicted countries like Ukraine and Poland would do something in their national interest. Ukraine chose a different path, one that ended in catastrophe at the hands of its overbearing neighbour. Poland initially was worried about Germany claiming back lost territory, and in effect Poland capitulated to Germany.

    http://www.socialaffairsunit.org.uk/blog/archives/001975.php
    Choosing Mr Rompuy over the much-discussed and incomparably more dynamic Tony Blair, and Ms Ashton over Peter Mandelson, sends an unmistakable signal that it is business as usual at the European Union. For all his federalist enthusiasms Mr van Rompuy, in particular, is unlikely to push forward the vital military reforms needed to make Europe a factor to be reckoned with globally. As Belgian prime minister he cut the military budget to a record low: the Russians are hardly quaking in their boots.

    Europe has made the choice which the President of the Commission, Mr Barroso, demanded in September, and it has chosen irrelevance. Valery Giscard d'Estaing, the former French President, beheld the results and bewailed the "limited ambition for Europe". It was a far cry from the heady days when he had launched the European constitutional convention and told the putative founding fathers that they would be immortalised by "statues of you on horseback in the village you all come from".

    This is a very German outcome. The decisive voice in the appointment was that of the Chancellor, Angela Merkel. Her opposition to Mr Blair served to swing the French President, Mr Sarkozy, away from Tony Blair when his candidature was beginning to seem unstoppable. The appointment of Mr van Rompuy also epitomises a huge and underappreciated shift in German attitudes towards the European project and their conception of security. Since the creation of the Federal Republic in 1949, Bonn and then Berlin had sought to embed German security in an irreversible process of European political integration on the one side, and the maintenance and later expansion of NATO on the other.

    All that changed with the inclusion of Poland in both organisations. With a substantial buffer to the east, Germany reckons itself much less in need of the American security umbrella and the support of allies. In short, far from demanding a world role since the fall of the wall as many had feared - the Federal Republic has retreated into a geopolitical cocoon. She is so swaddled by friendly neighbours that future conflicts appear to be matters of choice, not desperate struggles for survival.
     

    For the first time in history Germany is cocooned within friendly states. No reason to pursue politics by other means, it has won. Like the French imposition of Senegalese and north Africans on post WW2 Rhineland (and parts of Bavaria) Germany humiliates its humbled neighbours. The Germans have a habit of coming up with ways to wipe the floor with the rest of Europe, and more. This is soft, but it is power.

    What did Poland do against its national interests?

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    • Replies: @Sean
    I already gave the link

    Since the creation of the Federal Republic in 1949, Bonn and then Berlin had sought to embed German security in an irreversible process of European political integration on the one side, and the maintenance and later expansion of NATO on the other.

    All that changed with the inclusion of Poland in both organisations. With a substantial buffer to the east, Germany reckons itself much less in need of the American security umbrella and the support of allies.
     

    Poland was out for what it could get. Well now it will be the victim of Germany's second Generalplan Ost

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/09/29/refugee-crisis-stokes-anti-muslim-fervor-in-poland-eastern-europe/

    Poland hasn't a leg to stand on as it took hardly any Ukrainian refugees. Now suddenly "Poland's prime minister says her government will take steps to bring in tens of thousands of ethnic Poles now living in Kazakhstan and Ukraine." http://www.fox10tv.com/story/30138088/the-latest-poland-to-host-refugees-from-ukraine-kazakhstan

    Too bloody late for that now, everyone knows Poland has plenty of room, because hundreds of thousands of their best people have left.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Karlin is brilliant in his utter, ruthless, fact based and logic and methodical refutation of The Saker´s downright bizarre article on “Russia´s civilizational choice”. What a beating, I hope The Saker is not hurting too much.

    Make no mistake: I actually am a fan of The Saker, who is a good read even when he is wrong. But when I read his article on Russia´s civilizational choice, I had the very distinct feeling I had just read a load of bullshit. Why would a very intelligent man write such sheer nonsense?

    Well, Karlin confirms my intuition: “feelz over realz”. The saker is emotional about mother Russia.

    But I would add, to the fear of being alone advanced by Karlin, the (totally justified) feeling of being spurned and treated badly by the West. An urge to say: “you can´t isolate me, I have friends”. When kids have this feeling, they at least have the good sense of inventing an “imaginary friend”. It sure beats believing Muslims are your friends…

    Two other problems with the saker:

    (1) He seems to be totally ignorant of HBD. A blank slatist.

    (2) He keeps speaking about “racists” in France (and Europe). Who is he talking about? Sure, the NPD and Jobbik are racist. But the Front National? For god´s sake, the French are a European people that will become a minority on its own soil (in births) in less than 8 years. French nationalists don´t hate anyone, they want to keep their country and their way of life, and they get massive flak from the globalist elites in their country for doing so (who collaborate with the Saker´s beloved AngloZionists). And the Saker keeps calling them racists. On and on. This is worst than his cognitives failings caused by understandable emotion. This is a moral failing, possibly a wicked attempt to “triangulate”. Shame on him on that one.

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    • Agree: Deduction
    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
    I've been following Saker for nearly two years, so I can probably answer your questions:

    (1) He seems to be totally ignorant of HBD. A blank slatist.

     

    He has never mentioned HBD while I've been following him, and does not seem to be a racialist. I would described him more as a culturalist or a civilizationalist.

    (2) He keeps speaking about “racists” in France (and Europe). Who is he talking about? Sure, the NPD and Jobbik are racist. But the Front National?
     
    He's OK with Front National, because they're opposed to/by the NWO. But his real favorites are Alain Soral (dissident rightist) and Dieudonné Mbala-Mbala (the black comedian who has been banned for Israel-bashing and his 'quenelle' gesture). He really hates Charlie Hebdo ('Je ne suis pas Charlie!' was his motto) and points out that their magazine spends most of its time bashing Moslems and Christians. One cartoonist who made of fun of Jews was fired. He would probably characterize the Charlie Hebdo people as racist.

    He has never mentioned Jobbik, Golden Dawn or any of the rest. I think it's safe to say he's not into HBD. All of this fits in well with his Orthodox reactionary worldview. Christian reactionaries typically give short shrift to genetics and emphasize culture/upbringing instead.

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  • Correction: ‘Like the French imposition of Senegalese and north Africans on post WW1 Rhineland (and parts of Bavaria)…’

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    Didn't Mearsheimer also predict that Germany would be trying to take over Europe again by the 2000s?

    Though come to think of it not that he's wrong LOL just not right quite in the way he imagined it would be.

    Mearsheimer was proved wrong over Ukraine in the same way he was proved right over Germany. Mearsheimer predicted countries like Ukraine and Poland would do something in their national interest. Ukraine chose a different path, one that ended in catastrophe at the hands of its overbearing neighbour. Poland initially was worried about Germany claiming back lost territory, and in effect Poland capitulated to Germany.

    http://www.socialaffairsunit.org.uk/blog/archives/001975.php
    Choosing Mr Rompuy over the much-discussed and incomparably more dynamic Tony Blair, and Ms Ashton over Peter Mandelson, sends an unmistakable signal that it is business as usual at the European Union. For all his federalist enthusiasms Mr van Rompuy, in particular, is unlikely to push forward the vital military reforms needed to make Europe a factor to be reckoned with globally. As Belgian prime minister he cut the military budget to a record low: the Russians are hardly quaking in their boots.

    Europe has made the choice which the President of the Commission, Mr Barroso, demanded in September, and it has chosen irrelevance. Valery Giscard d’Estaing, the former French President, beheld the results and bewailed the “limited ambition for Europe”. It was a far cry from the heady days when he had launched the European constitutional convention and told the putative founding fathers that they would be immortalised by “statues of you on horseback in the village you all come from”.

    This is a very German outcome. The decisive voice in the appointment was that of the Chancellor, Angela Merkel. Her opposition to Mr Blair served to swing the French President, Mr Sarkozy, away from Tony Blair when his candidature was beginning to seem unstoppable. The appointment of Mr van Rompuy also epitomises a huge and underappreciated shift in German attitudes towards the European project and their conception of security. Since the creation of the Federal Republic in 1949, Bonn and then Berlin had sought to embed German security in an irreversible process of European political integration on the one side, and the maintenance and later expansion of NATO on the other.

    All that changed with the inclusion of Poland in both organisations. With a substantial buffer to the east, Germany reckons itself much less in need of the American security umbrella and the support of allies. In short, far from demanding a world role since the fall of the wall as many had feared – the Federal Republic has retreated into a geopolitical cocoon. She is so swaddled by friendly neighbours that future conflicts appear to be matters of choice, not desperate struggles for survival.

    For the first time in history Germany is cocooned within friendly states. No reason to pursue politics by other means, it has won. Like the French imposition of Senegalese and north Africans on post WW2 Rhineland (and parts of Bavaria) Germany humiliates its humbled neighbours. The Germans have a habit of coming up with ways to wipe the floor with the rest of Europe, and more. This is soft, but it is power.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mitleser
    What did Poland do against its national interests?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @AP

    I suspect you will deny that you are a Russian nationalist?

    I’m neither Russian nor a nationalist.
     

    You are from Russia and repeat Russian nationalist myths.

    The original Romans saw themselves as a community sharing descent from Romulus, Remus and their followers. It was a simplification of the truth. And obviously, by late Republican times Rome became really, really multiethnic. The typical Germanic tribe saw itself as being descended from a particular founder. The Greeks traced their descent from Hellen, the early Slavs from Lech, Chech and Rus, the Jews traced their descent from Old Testament patriarchs, etc. The story of Noah’s flood goes on to describe how all the known peoples of the earth descended from Noah’s various grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
     
    This is a very broad definition of "nationalism", conflating it with some sort of tribalism.

    Constantine VII, a contemporary neutral observer, neither a Slav nor a Scandinavian, called him Sphendosthlavos.
     
    This also demonstrates that a Scandinavian had a Slavic name as well as a Scandinavian one. Note that such names were popular among Scandinavians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldemar

    Sviatoslav had two Scandinavian parents, a Scandinavian tutor as a child (suggesting active attempts by the parents to maintain his ethnic identify despite choosing a Slavic name). His son Vladimir was (likely) with a Scandinavian woman. Vladimir lived in exile in the North (suggesting he could speak his ancestors' language) and seized power using Varangian troops. His child Yaroslav was with a Scandinavian woman, Ragnhild; Yarsolav himself married a princess from Sweden.

    The idea that these people had a Slavic rather than Scandinavian identity is absurd.


    “The theory that she was a Slav seems to pushed by Ukrainian and Russian nationalists and is not widely accepted.”

    This story was “pushed” by the authors of the Primary Chronicle, Повесть временных лет, the earliest Russian history that has come down to us. It was written in the 11th and 12th centuries. The Primary Chronicle admits that Riurik and company were foreigners “from across the sea”. It’s not a Slavophile document. Actually, its story of the calling of Riurik to Novgorod is shockingly pro-Scandinavian. “Our land is rich, but there is no order in it. Come rule over us” – I’m paraphrasing. It’s THIS document that names Vladimir’s mother Malusha. It’s this document (actually a modern Russian translation) that I quoted above. And it’s the main primary source on her.
     

    And yet other than for a few Ukrainian and Russian nationalists with a story to tell, consensus is that Malusha was a Slavicised version of a Scandinavian name. Primary Chronicle also referred to Ingvar as Igor, did it not?

    The Scandinavians were always a small elite who had to communicate with the locals. The inflow of new Scandinavians, except for a few dynastic marriages, stopped around 1000 AD. They went native.
     
    According to Russian wiki the last mention of Varangian newcomers was in 1036 (which doesn't mean nobody ever came later). The small elite was somewhat insular and replenished with people from the homeland. British in India were probably more outnumbered than Scandinavians in Rus, yet I suspect most didn't even speak Hindi. We know the Scandinavians in Rus spoke the Slavic language of the natives as well as their own language.

    ” You’ve got a pure Scandinavian bloodline until the half-Scandinavian, half-Greek Vladimir Monomakh”

    Which reminds me that Monomakh left some Russian-language writings of his own.
     

    Sure. He ruled in the 12th century. And yet, the guy was half Scandinavian and married to a princess from Sweden. I suspect even his identity and that of his children wasn't fully Slavic.

    “Primary Chronicle also referred to Ingvar as Igor, did it not?”

    Unlike Sviatoslav, Vladimir, Malusha, Dobrynya, Yaroslav, etc. the name Igor means nothing in the Russian language. It’s just a local mangling of Inger (not Ingvar). This is an important difference. The Primary Chronicle made no claims, implicit or explicit, about the Slavic background of Igor or of his name. Its authors and readers would have understood it as a foreign name because it had no meaning for them.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @AP

    I suspect you will deny that you are a Russian nationalist?

    I’m neither Russian nor a nationalist.
     

    You are from Russia and repeat Russian nationalist myths.

    The original Romans saw themselves as a community sharing descent from Romulus, Remus and their followers. It was a simplification of the truth. And obviously, by late Republican times Rome became really, really multiethnic. The typical Germanic tribe saw itself as being descended from a particular founder. The Greeks traced their descent from Hellen, the early Slavs from Lech, Chech and Rus, the Jews traced their descent from Old Testament patriarchs, etc. The story of Noah’s flood goes on to describe how all the known peoples of the earth descended from Noah’s various grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
     
    This is a very broad definition of "nationalism", conflating it with some sort of tribalism.

    Constantine VII, a contemporary neutral observer, neither a Slav nor a Scandinavian, called him Sphendosthlavos.
     
    This also demonstrates that a Scandinavian had a Slavic name as well as a Scandinavian one. Note that such names were popular among Scandinavians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldemar

    Sviatoslav had two Scandinavian parents, a Scandinavian tutor as a child (suggesting active attempts by the parents to maintain his ethnic identify despite choosing a Slavic name). His son Vladimir was (likely) with a Scandinavian woman. Vladimir lived in exile in the North (suggesting he could speak his ancestors' language) and seized power using Varangian troops. His child Yaroslav was with a Scandinavian woman, Ragnhild; Yarsolav himself married a princess from Sweden.

    The idea that these people had a Slavic rather than Scandinavian identity is absurd.


    “The theory that she was a Slav seems to pushed by Ukrainian and Russian nationalists and is not widely accepted.”

    This story was “pushed” by the authors of the Primary Chronicle, Повесть временных лет, the earliest Russian history that has come down to us. It was written in the 11th and 12th centuries. The Primary Chronicle admits that Riurik and company were foreigners “from across the sea”. It’s not a Slavophile document. Actually, its story of the calling of Riurik to Novgorod is shockingly pro-Scandinavian. “Our land is rich, but there is no order in it. Come rule over us” – I’m paraphrasing. It’s THIS document that names Vladimir’s mother Malusha. It’s this document (actually a modern Russian translation) that I quoted above. And it’s the main primary source on her.
     

    And yet other than for a few Ukrainian and Russian nationalists with a story to tell, consensus is that Malusha was a Slavicised version of a Scandinavian name. Primary Chronicle also referred to Ingvar as Igor, did it not?

    The Scandinavians were always a small elite who had to communicate with the locals. The inflow of new Scandinavians, except for a few dynastic marriages, stopped around 1000 AD. They went native.
     
    According to Russian wiki the last mention of Varangian newcomers was in 1036 (which doesn't mean nobody ever came later). The small elite was somewhat insular and replenished with people from the homeland. British in India were probably more outnumbered than Scandinavians in Rus, yet I suspect most didn't even speak Hindi. We know the Scandinavians in Rus spoke the Slavic language of the natives as well as their own language.

    ” You’ve got a pure Scandinavian bloodline until the half-Scandinavian, half-Greek Vladimir Monomakh”

    Which reminds me that Monomakh left some Russian-language writings of his own.
     

    Sure. He ruled in the 12th century. And yet, the guy was half Scandinavian and married to a princess from Sweden. I suspect even his identity and that of his children wasn't fully Slavic.

    This is a very broad definition of “nationalism”, conflating it with some sort of tribalism.

    I neither know nor care how po-mo deconstuctivist “historians” define nationalism, but in the real word it’s mostly just another word for tribalism. The key feature is preferring one’s own kin.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Why do you insist that I'm relying on some sort of po-mo deconstructivist view of nationalism?

    I encourage you to read John Lukacs sometime. He's a great writer:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lukacs

    in the real word it’s mostly just another word for tribalism
     
    So for example the Indian chieftain "King Phillip" who fought the English colonists was a Pequot Nationalist?

    How bizarre.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @neutral
    With a name like that he surely is jewish.

    “The Saker” is a pen-name (well, keyboard-name), not a personal name. Sakers are a type of birds of prey.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @AP
    Is the Saker Russian? I suspect he is a Serb. That would explain his anti-Catholic fixation, his vicarious thrills at Russian successes vs. the West and how he seemingly understands Russia but then writes bizarre stuff like his Islam article.

    With a name like that he surely is jewish.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    "The Saker" is a pen-name (well, keyboard-name), not a personal name. Sakers are a type of birds of prey.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Glossy
    I suspect you will deny that you are a Russian nationalist?

    I'm neither Russian nor a nationalist.

    "So sure, Romans saw Germanic tribes as barbarian people inferior to themselves, but they were not Roman nationalists."

    The original Romans saw themselves as a community sharing descent from Romulus, Remus and their followers. It was a simplification of the truth. And obviously, by late Republican times Rome became really, really multiethnic. The typical Germanic tribe saw itself as being descended from a particular founder. The Greeks traced their descent from Hellen, the early Slavs from Lech, Chech and Rus, the Jews traced their descent from Old Testament patriarchs, etc. The story of Noah's flood goes on to describe how all the known peoples of the earth descended from Noah's various grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

    The point here is that since the dawn of history most peoples saw themselves as communities bound by common descent. In politics and war people tended to side with the other members of such a community and against outsiders. There were exceptions. Some Greeks for example fought for Persians against fellow Greeks. And they were shamed by the other Greeks for it. Such behavior was always seen as abnormal.

    And? He, the child of Scandinavian parents, had a Scandinavian name and a Slavic counterpart.

    Constantine VII, a contemporary neutral observer, neither a Slav nor a Scandinavian, called him Sphendosthlavos.

    "The theory that she was a Slav seems to pushed by Ukrainian and Russian nationalists and is not widely accepted."

    This story was "pushed" by the authors of the Primary Chronicle, Повесть временных лет, the earliest Russian history that has come down to us. It was written in the 11th and 12th centuries. The Primary Chronicle admits that Riurik and company were foreigners "from across the sea". It's not a Slavophile document. Actually, its story of the calling of Riurik to Novgorod is shockingly pro-Scandinavian. "Our land is rich, but there is no order in it. Come rule over us" - I'm paraphrasing. It's THIS document that names Vladimir's mother Malusha. It's this document (actually a modern Russian translation) that I quoted above. And it's the main primary source on her.

    "I’ve known American-born or raised Russians and Ukrainians who have married people from the homeland; they don’t speak English at home, even if they name their kids Jennifer (Zhenya).

    These people would have spoken Russian because they lived their whole lives in Russia. The wives who came from abroad as adults would have had an accent. The ones who were born and raised in Novgorod, Kiev, Chernigov, etc. would have spoken medieval Russian. The Scandinavians were always a small elite who had to communicate with the locals. The inflow of new Scandinavians, except for a few dynastic marriages, stopped around 1000 AD. They went native.

    " You’ve got a pure Scandinavian bloodline until the half-Scandinavian, half-Greek Vladimir Monomakh"

    Which reminds me that Monomakh left some Russian-language writings of his own.

    I suspect you will deny that you are a Russian nationalist?

    I’m neither Russian nor a nationalist.

    You are from Russia and repeat Russian nationalist myths.

    The original Romans saw themselves as a community sharing descent from Romulus, Remus and their followers. It was a simplification of the truth. And obviously, by late Republican times Rome became really, really multiethnic. The typical Germanic tribe saw itself as being descended from a particular founder. The Greeks traced their descent from Hellen, the early Slavs from Lech, Chech and Rus, the Jews traced their descent from Old Testament patriarchs, etc. The story of Noah’s flood goes on to describe how all the known peoples of the earth descended from Noah’s various grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

    This is a very broad definition of “nationalism”, conflating it with some sort of tribalism.

    Constantine VII, a contemporary neutral observer, neither a Slav nor a Scandinavian, called him Sphendosthlavos.

    This also demonstrates that a Scandinavian had a Slavic name as well as a Scandinavian one. Note that such names were popular among Scandinavians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldemar

    Sviatoslav had two Scandinavian parents, a Scandinavian tutor as a child (suggesting active attempts by the parents to maintain his ethnic identify despite choosing a Slavic name). His son Vladimir was (likely) with a Scandinavian woman. Vladimir lived in exile in the North (suggesting he could speak his ancestors’ language) and seized power using Varangian troops. His child Yaroslav was with a Scandinavian woman, Ragnhild; Yarsolav himself married a princess from Sweden.

    The idea that these people had a Slavic rather than Scandinavian identity is absurd.

    “The theory that she was a Slav seems to pushed by Ukrainian and Russian nationalists and is not widely accepted.”

    This story was “pushed” by the authors of the Primary Chronicle, Повесть временных лет, the earliest Russian history that has come down to us. It was written in the 11th and 12th centuries. The Primary Chronicle admits that Riurik and company were foreigners “from across the sea”. It’s not a Slavophile document. Actually, its story of the calling of Riurik to Novgorod is shockingly pro-Scandinavian. “Our land is rich, but there is no order in it. Come rule over us” – I’m paraphrasing. It’s THIS document that names Vladimir’s mother Malusha. It’s this document (actually a modern Russian translation) that I quoted above. And it’s the main primary source on her.

    And yet other than for a few Ukrainian and Russian nationalists with a story to tell, consensus is that Malusha was a Slavicised version of a Scandinavian name. Primary Chronicle also referred to Ingvar as Igor, did it not?

    The Scandinavians were always a small elite who had to communicate with the locals. The inflow of new Scandinavians, except for a few dynastic marriages, stopped around 1000 AD. They went native.

    According to Russian wiki the last mention of Varangian newcomers was in 1036 (which doesn’t mean nobody ever came later). The small elite was somewhat insular and replenished with people from the homeland. British in India were probably more outnumbered than Scandinavians in Rus, yet I suspect most didn’t even speak Hindi. We know the Scandinavians in Rus spoke the Slavic language of the natives as well as their own language.

    ” You’ve got a pure Scandinavian bloodline until the half-Scandinavian, half-Greek Vladimir Monomakh”

    Which reminds me that Monomakh left some Russian-language writings of his own.

    Sure. He ruled in the 12th century. And yet, the guy was half Scandinavian and married to a princess from Sweden. I suspect even his identity and that of his children wasn’t fully Slavic.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    This is a very broad definition of “nationalism”, conflating it with some sort of tribalism.

    I neither know nor care how po-mo deconstuctivist "historians" define nationalism, but in the real word it's mostly just another word for tribalism. The key feature is preferring one's own kin.

    , @Glossy
    "Primary Chronicle also referred to Ingvar as Igor, did it not?"

    Unlike Sviatoslav, Vladimir, Malusha, Dobrynya, Yaroslav, etc. the name Igor means nothing in the Russian language. It's just a local mangling of Inger (not Ingvar). This is an important difference. The Primary Chronicle made no claims, implicit or explicit, about the Slavic background of Igor or of his name. Its authors and readers would have understood it as a foreign name because it had no meaning for them.
    , @SWSpires
    A brief point about assimilation of elites and the Rus situation. Often the minority conqueror assimilates to the much larger conquered population. This was the case in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, where the official language was not Lithuanian but a form of East Slavic (sometimes called Ruthenian), and where the pagan Lithuanian elite gradually merged with the Orthodox Slavic one. It was also the case in Imperial China, where the Manchu conquerors adopted Chinese culture (while maintaining some records in Manchu language), and in Norman England (where French was the elite language for a couple of centuries, eventually replaced by English).

    As far as I know, all the literature surviving from medieval Rus is in the East Slavic language. Is there even a single document from Rus in early Swedish or any form of Norse? There is also very little provable Norse influence on Old East Slavic, beyond a few loanwords. This suggests that, even if the leaders of Rus were Scandinavian by origin, they assimilated to the local culture rather quickly. The influence of Orthodox Christianity was certainly a decisive factor, as was the case in Lithuania.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @5371
    Nicholas II had only one Russian great-great-great-great-grandfather. That doesn't mean he couldn't speak Russian, idiot.

    Nobody claimed Yaroslav couldn’t speak Rus.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @AP

    Russian and Ukrainian pretensions to Rus are equally silly.

    What’s silly is your claim that nationalism was born in the 19th century. You’re not the only nationalist I’ve known who denied being a nationalist. Many do.
     

    You have no evidence that I am any sort of "nationalist." I suspect you will deny that you are a Russian nationalist?

    First, nationalism really is as old as history.
     
    You are placing modern concepts into the past. You confuse "nationalism" with recognition that some people are different from one's own people (speak a different language, worship different gods) and preference for one's own clan or people. So sure, Romans saw Germanic tribes as barbarian people inferior to themselves, but they were not Roman nationalists.

    This idea is usually promoted by lefty universalists instead.
     
    Reactionary historian John Lukacs is hardly a leftist, and I pretty much accept his views about nationalism.

    Sviatoslav (aka Sveinald Ingvarsson)

    Sviatoslav’s contemporary Constantine Porphyrogenitos called him “Σφενδοσθλάβος” (Sfendosthlavos) in his book On Administering the Empire.
     

    And? He, the child of Scandinavian parents, had a Scandinavian name and a Slavic counterpart.

    About Málfríðr:

    Little is known about her, but according to Alexi Shakhmatov she was the daughter of Scandanavian warlord. The theory that she was a Slav seems to pushed by Ukrainian and Russian nationalists and is not widely accepted.


    And more importantly, why would the women of a tiny military elite be employed as household servants? Did the British employ female British servants in India?
     
    If she served the queen in her household she may not have been a commoner. If her father was prominant such as a warlord she may have been a lady-in-waiting type.

    With this enormous land teeming with potential servants and concubines, they were going to bring one from Sweden?
     
    A household servant might come from the homeland. They also employed a Varangian to tutor their son Sviatoslav.

    “Guess what language they spoke with their kids?”

    Probably the one in which they named most of them.
     

    So in your opinion a marriage consisting of a guy with two Scandinavian parents and a princess from Sweden, was Rus-speaking? This was Yaroslav (Jarizleifr) who ruled Kiev until 1054. I've known American-born or raised Russians and Ukrainians who have married people from the homeland; they don't speak English at home, even if they name their kids Jennifer (Zhenya).

    In summary, the Rus elite went native earlier than you claim it did.
     
    You claim this, but your claim isn't supported by the facts. You've got a pure Scandinavian bloodline until the half-Scandinavian, half-Greek Vladimir Monomakh , who ruled 1113-1125 - and then he married a Swedish princess. They are supported by a steady stream of Varangians coming in from the historical homeland. And no Slavs here, the murky origins of "Malusha" is the only hope on that score.

    But the myth of these people having been Slavicised is very dear to Ukrainian and Russian nationalists who want to stretch their nations as far back as possible.


    Ironically, the Maidan elite shows no signs of wanting to go native. How many members of the Ukrainian government are Ukrainian now?
     
    Ukraine's cabinet of ministers:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ukraine#Cabinet

    Out of 21 people, one is a Georgian, one is a Lithuanian married to a Ukrainian woman and living in Ukraine since 2008, and one is an Armenian from Baku who came to Ukriane in 1966 when he was 2 years old. Oh - and the finance minister is a nationalistic diaspora Ukrainian from the USA.

    Want to compare to the previous government? Ethnic Russian-Belarussian president born in Ukraine; Russian-Estonian PM from Kaluga, Russia who came to Ukraine in 1984 when he was about 40 years old; ethnic Russian Defense Minister from Krasnodar, Russia who moved to Ukraine as a 22 year old after finishing military college

    Nicholas II had only one Russian great-great-great-great-grandfather. That doesn’t mean he couldn’t speak Russian, idiot.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Nobody claimed Yaroslav couldn't speak Rus.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @AP

    Russian and Ukrainian pretensions to Rus are equally silly.

    What’s silly is your claim that nationalism was born in the 19th century. You’re not the only nationalist I’ve known who denied being a nationalist. Many do.
     

    You have no evidence that I am any sort of "nationalist." I suspect you will deny that you are a Russian nationalist?

    First, nationalism really is as old as history.
     
    You are placing modern concepts into the past. You confuse "nationalism" with recognition that some people are different from one's own people (speak a different language, worship different gods) and preference for one's own clan or people. So sure, Romans saw Germanic tribes as barbarian people inferior to themselves, but they were not Roman nationalists.

    This idea is usually promoted by lefty universalists instead.
     
    Reactionary historian John Lukacs is hardly a leftist, and I pretty much accept his views about nationalism.

    Sviatoslav (aka Sveinald Ingvarsson)

    Sviatoslav’s contemporary Constantine Porphyrogenitos called him “Σφενδοσθλάβος” (Sfendosthlavos) in his book On Administering the Empire.
     

    And? He, the child of Scandinavian parents, had a Scandinavian name and a Slavic counterpart.

    About Málfríðr:

    Little is known about her, but according to Alexi Shakhmatov she was the daughter of Scandanavian warlord. The theory that she was a Slav seems to pushed by Ukrainian and Russian nationalists and is not widely accepted.


    And more importantly, why would the women of a tiny military elite be employed as household servants? Did the British employ female British servants in India?
     
    If she served the queen in her household she may not have been a commoner. If her father was prominant such as a warlord she may have been a lady-in-waiting type.

    With this enormous land teeming with potential servants and concubines, they were going to bring one from Sweden?
     
    A household servant might come from the homeland. They also employed a Varangian to tutor their son Sviatoslav.

    “Guess what language they spoke with their kids?”

    Probably the one in which they named most of them.
     

    So in your opinion a marriage consisting of a guy with two Scandinavian parents and a princess from Sweden, was Rus-speaking? This was Yaroslav (Jarizleifr) who ruled Kiev until 1054. I've known American-born or raised Russians and Ukrainians who have married people from the homeland; they don't speak English at home, even if they name their kids Jennifer (Zhenya).

    In summary, the Rus elite went native earlier than you claim it did.
     
    You claim this, but your claim isn't supported by the facts. You've got a pure Scandinavian bloodline until the half-Scandinavian, half-Greek Vladimir Monomakh , who ruled 1113-1125 - and then he married a Swedish princess. They are supported by a steady stream of Varangians coming in from the historical homeland. And no Slavs here, the murky origins of "Malusha" is the only hope on that score.

    But the myth of these people having been Slavicised is very dear to Ukrainian and Russian nationalists who want to stretch their nations as far back as possible.


    Ironically, the Maidan elite shows no signs of wanting to go native. How many members of the Ukrainian government are Ukrainian now?
     
    Ukraine's cabinet of ministers:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ukraine#Cabinet

    Out of 21 people, one is a Georgian, one is a Lithuanian married to a Ukrainian woman and living in Ukraine since 2008, and one is an Armenian from Baku who came to Ukriane in 1966 when he was 2 years old. Oh - and the finance minister is a nationalistic diaspora Ukrainian from the USA.

    Want to compare to the previous government? Ethnic Russian-Belarussian president born in Ukraine; Russian-Estonian PM from Kaluga, Russia who came to Ukraine in 1984 when he was about 40 years old; ethnic Russian Defense Minister from Krasnodar, Russia who moved to Ukraine as a 22 year old after finishing military college

    I suspect you will deny that you are a Russian nationalist?

    I’m neither Russian nor a nationalist.

    “So sure, Romans saw Germanic tribes as barbarian people inferior to themselves, but they were not Roman nationalists.”

    The original Romans saw themselves as a community sharing descent from Romulus, Remus and their followers. It was a simplification of the truth. And obviously, by late Republican times Rome became really, really multiethnic. The typical Germanic tribe saw itself as being descended from a particular founder. The Greeks traced their descent from Hellen, the early Slavs from Lech, Chech and Rus, the Jews traced their descent from Old Testament patriarchs, etc. The story of Noah’s flood goes on to describe how all the known peoples of the earth descended from Noah’s various grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

    The point here is that since the dawn of history most peoples saw themselves as communities bound by common descent. In politics and war people tended to side with the other members of such a community and against outsiders. There were exceptions. Some Greeks for example fought for Persians against fellow Greeks. And they were shamed by the other Greeks for it. Such behavior was always seen as abnormal.

    And? He, the child of Scandinavian parents, had a Scandinavian name and a Slavic counterpart.

    Constantine VII, a contemporary neutral observer, neither a Slav nor a Scandinavian, called him Sphendosthlavos.

    “The theory that she was a Slav seems to pushed by Ukrainian and Russian nationalists and is not widely accepted.”

    This story was “pushed” by the authors of the Primary Chronicle, Повесть временных лет, the earliest Russian history that has come down to us. It was written in the 11th and 12th centuries. The Primary Chronicle admits that Riurik and company were foreigners “from across the sea”. It’s not a Slavophile document. Actually, its story of the calling of Riurik to Novgorod is shockingly pro-Scandinavian. “Our land is rich, but there is no order in it. Come rule over us” – I’m paraphrasing. It’s THIS document that names Vladimir’s mother Malusha. It’s this document (actually a modern Russian translation) that I quoted above. And it’s the main primary source on her.

    “I’ve known American-born or raised Russians and Ukrainians who have married people from the homeland; they don’t speak English at home, even if they name their kids Jennifer (Zhenya).

    These people would have spoken Russian because they lived their whole lives in Russia. The wives who came from abroad as adults would have had an accent. The ones who were born and raised in Novgorod, Kiev, Chernigov, etc. would have spoken medieval Russian. The Scandinavians were always a small elite who had to communicate with the locals. The inflow of new Scandinavians, except for a few dynastic marriages, stopped around 1000 AD. They went native.

    ” You’ve got a pure Scandinavian bloodline until the half-Scandinavian, half-Greek Vladimir Monomakh”

    Which reminds me that Monomakh left some Russian-language writings of his own.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    I suspect you will deny that you are a Russian nationalist?

    I’m neither Russian nor a nationalist.
     

    You are from Russia and repeat Russian nationalist myths.

    The original Romans saw themselves as a community sharing descent from Romulus, Remus and their followers. It was a simplification of the truth. And obviously, by late Republican times Rome became really, really multiethnic. The typical Germanic tribe saw itself as being descended from a particular founder. The Greeks traced their descent from Hellen, the early Slavs from Lech, Chech and Rus, the Jews traced their descent from Old Testament patriarchs, etc. The story of Noah’s flood goes on to describe how all the known peoples of the earth descended from Noah’s various grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
     
    This is a very broad definition of "nationalism", conflating it with some sort of tribalism.

    Constantine VII, a contemporary neutral observer, neither a Slav nor a Scandinavian, called him Sphendosthlavos.
     
    This also demonstrates that a Scandinavian had a Slavic name as well as a Scandinavian one. Note that such names were popular among Scandinavians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldemar

    Sviatoslav had two Scandinavian parents, a Scandinavian tutor as a child (suggesting active attempts by the parents to maintain his ethnic identify despite choosing a Slavic name). His son Vladimir was (likely) with a Scandinavian woman. Vladimir lived in exile in the North (suggesting he could speak his ancestors' language) and seized power using Varangian troops. His child Yaroslav was with a Scandinavian woman, Ragnhild; Yarsolav himself married a princess from Sweden.

    The idea that these people had a Slavic rather than Scandinavian identity is absurd.


    “The theory that she was a Slav seems to pushed by Ukrainian and Russian nationalists and is not widely accepted.”

    This story was “pushed” by the authors of the Primary Chronicle, Повесть временных лет, the earliest Russian history that has come down to us. It was written in the 11th and 12th centuries. The Primary Chronicle admits that Riurik and company were foreigners “from across the sea”. It’s not a Slavophile document. Actually, its story of the calling of Riurik to Novgorod is shockingly pro-Scandinavian. “Our land is rich, but there is no order in it. Come rule over us” – I’m paraphrasing. It’s THIS document that names Vladimir’s mother Malusha. It’s this document (actually a modern Russian translation) that I quoted above. And it’s the main primary source on her.
     

    And yet other than for a few Ukrainian and Russian nationalists with a story to tell, consensus is that Malusha was a Slavicised version of a Scandinavian name. Primary Chronicle also referred to Ingvar as Igor, did it not?

    The Scandinavians were always a small elite who had to communicate with the locals. The inflow of new Scandinavians, except for a few dynastic marriages, stopped around 1000 AD. They went native.
     
    According to Russian wiki the last mention of Varangian newcomers was in 1036 (which doesn't mean nobody ever came later). The small elite was somewhat insular and replenished with people from the homeland. British in India were probably more outnumbered than Scandinavians in Rus, yet I suspect most didn't even speak Hindi. We know the Scandinavians in Rus spoke the Slavic language of the natives as well as their own language.

    ” You’ve got a pure Scandinavian bloodline until the half-Scandinavian, half-Greek Vladimir Monomakh”

    Which reminds me that Monomakh left some Russian-language writings of his own.
     

    Sure. He ruled in the 12th century. And yet, the guy was half Scandinavian and married to a princess from Sweden. I suspect even his identity and that of his children wasn't fully Slavic.
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  • @Glossy
    The Saker has said that he's descended from Russiaans who fled to Western Europe after 1917. I think he grew up in France, though I may be misremembering that last part. He certainly knows French.

    Thanks!

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  • @Mark Eugenikos
    By his own admission, Saker is Russian who was born in Western Europe to Russian White emigrant parents. His only writings related to Serbia have been about the war in Bosnia, which he covered professionally as a NATO analyst. I've also heard Saker's voice in his podcasts, and his accent doesn't sound like any Serb I've ever met.

    Thanks. I haven’t followed him terribly closely.

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  • @Glossy
    Russian and Ukrainian pretensions to Rus are equally silly.

    What's silly is your claim that nationalism was born in the 19th century. You're not the only nationalist I've known who denied being a nationalist. Many do. But you're the only one that I've known who has claimed that nationalism is a recent invention. This idea is usually promoted by lefty universalists instead.

    First, nationalism really is as old as history. Second, even the nationalists who don't know much history usually claim that it's ancient because that makes their movement sound more important, more elemental. Your current, particular nationalism was born recently. But that's rare.

    Sviatoslav (aka Sveinald Ingvarsson)

    Sviatoslav's contemporary Constantine Porphyrogenitos called him "Σφενδοσθλάβος" (Sfendosthlavos) in his book On Administering the Empire. The Byzantine Emperor could not have cared the slightest bit about either Scandinavian or Slavic bragging rights. And neither do I. Constantine must have used a Greek mangling of "Sviatoslav" because that's how the man was generally known in his time.

    With Málfríðr he had a son Vladimir (aka Valdamarr Sveinaldsson)

    You've made this claim before. It's not supported by the historical record. All we know about Vladimir's mother is contained in this sentence from the Primary Chronicle:

    "Володимер был от Малуши, ключницы Ольгиной, та же была сестра Добрыне; отец же им был Малък Любечанин".

    "Vladimir was from Malusha [Slavic name], the household servant of Olga. She was a sister of Dobrynya [Slavic name]. Their father was Malk [Slavic name] from Lyubech."

    There is a separate record of someone named Malfried dying in 1000 AD and some have jumped on that as "evidence" that Malusha (Slavic name) was really Malfried (Germanic name), but that's flimsy.

    And more importantly, why would the women of a tiny military elite be employed as household servants? Did the British employ female British servants in India? What do you think is the point of conquest? With this enormous land teeming with potential servants and concubines, they were going to bring one from Sweden? The mind boggles.

    When these kinds of military elites married their own women, it was strictly for dynastic purposes. If she was the daughter of some important chieftain back in Scandinavia whose support you needed in future military campaigns, it made sense. Making your own women do menial work is the opposite of what conquest is for.

    "Guess what language they spoke with their kids?"

    Probably the one in which they named most of them.

    In summary, the Rus elite went native earlier than you claim it did. Ironically, the Maidan elite shows no signs of wanting to go native. How many members of the Ukrainian government are Ukrainian now?

    Russian and Ukrainian pretensions to Rus are equally silly.

    What’s silly is your claim that nationalism was born in the 19th century. You’re not the only nationalist I’ve known who denied being a nationalist. Many do.

    You have no evidence that I am any sort of “nationalist.” I suspect you will deny that you are a Russian nationalist?

    First, nationalism really is as old as history.

    You are placing modern concepts into the past. You confuse “nationalism” with recognition that some people are different from one’s own people (speak a different language, worship different gods) and preference for one’s own clan or people. So sure, Romans saw Germanic tribes as barbarian people inferior to themselves, but they were not Roman nationalists.

    This idea is usually promoted by lefty universalists instead.

    Reactionary historian John Lukacs is hardly a leftist, and I pretty much accept his views about nationalism.

    Sviatoslav (aka Sveinald Ingvarsson)

    Sviatoslav’s contemporary Constantine Porphyrogenitos called him “Σφενδοσθλάβος” (Sfendosthlavos) in his book On Administering the Empire.

    And? He, the child of Scandinavian parents, had a Scandinavian name and a Slavic counterpart.

    About Málfríðr:

    Little is known about her, but according to Alexi Shakhmatov she was the daughter of Scandanavian warlord. The theory that she was a Slav seems to pushed by Ukrainian and Russian nationalists and is not widely accepted.

    And more importantly, why would the women of a tiny military elite be employed as household servants? Did the British employ female British servants in India?

    If she served the queen in her household she may not have been a commoner. If her father was prominant such as a warlord she may have been a lady-in-waiting type.

    With this enormous land teeming with potential servants and concubines, they were going to bring one from Sweden?

    A household servant might come from the homeland. They also employed a Varangian to tutor their son Sviatoslav.

    “Guess what language they spoke with their kids?”

    Probably the one in which they named most of them.

    So in your opinion a marriage consisting of a guy with two Scandinavian parents and a princess from Sweden, was Rus-speaking? This was Yaroslav (Jarizleifr) who ruled Kiev until 1054. I’ve known American-born or raised Russians and Ukrainians who have married people from the homeland; they don’t speak English at home, even if they name their kids Jennifer (Zhenya).

    In summary, the Rus elite went native earlier than you claim it did.

    You claim this, but your claim isn’t supported by the facts. You’ve got a pure Scandinavian bloodline until the half-Scandinavian, half-Greek Vladimir Monomakh , who ruled 1113-1125 – and then he married a Swedish princess. They are supported by a steady stream of Varangians coming in from the historical homeland. And no Slavs here, the murky origins of “Malusha” is the only hope on that score.

    But the myth of these people having been Slavicised is very dear to Ukrainian and Russian nationalists who want to stretch their nations as far back as possible.

    Ironically, the Maidan elite shows no signs of wanting to go native. How many members of the Ukrainian government are Ukrainian now?

    Ukraine’s cabinet of ministers:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ukraine#Cabinet

    Out of 21 people, one is a Georgian, one is a Lithuanian married to a Ukrainian woman and living in Ukraine since 2008, and one is an Armenian from Baku who came to Ukriane in 1966 when he was 2 years old. Oh – and the finance minister is a nationalistic diaspora Ukrainian from the USA.

    Want to compare to the previous government? Ethnic Russian-Belarussian president born in Ukraine; Russian-Estonian PM from Kaluga, Russia who came to Ukraine in 1984 when he was about 40 years old; ethnic Russian Defense Minister from Krasnodar, Russia who moved to Ukraine as a 22 year old after finishing military college

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    • Replies: @Glossy
    I suspect you will deny that you are a Russian nationalist?

    I'm neither Russian nor a nationalist.

    "So sure, Romans saw Germanic tribes as barbarian people inferior to themselves, but they were not Roman nationalists."

    The original Romans saw themselves as a community sharing descent from Romulus, Remus and their followers. It was a simplification of the truth. And obviously, by late Republican times Rome became really, really multiethnic. The typical Germanic tribe saw itself as being descended from a particular founder. The Greeks traced their descent from Hellen, the early Slavs from Lech, Chech and Rus, the Jews traced their descent from Old Testament patriarchs, etc. The story of Noah's flood goes on to describe how all the known peoples of the earth descended from Noah's various grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

    The point here is that since the dawn of history most peoples saw themselves as communities bound by common descent. In politics and war people tended to side with the other members of such a community and against outsiders. There were exceptions. Some Greeks for example fought for Persians against fellow Greeks. And they were shamed by the other Greeks for it. Such behavior was always seen as abnormal.

    And? He, the child of Scandinavian parents, had a Scandinavian name and a Slavic counterpart.

    Constantine VII, a contemporary neutral observer, neither a Slav nor a Scandinavian, called him Sphendosthlavos.

    "The theory that she was a Slav seems to pushed by Ukrainian and Russian nationalists and is not widely accepted."

    This story was "pushed" by the authors of the Primary Chronicle, Повесть временных лет, the earliest Russian history that has come down to us. It was written in the 11th and 12th centuries. The Primary Chronicle admits that Riurik and company were foreigners "from across the sea". It's not a Slavophile document. Actually, its story of the calling of Riurik to Novgorod is shockingly pro-Scandinavian. "Our land is rich, but there is no order in it. Come rule over us" - I'm paraphrasing. It's THIS document that names Vladimir's mother Malusha. It's this document (actually a modern Russian translation) that I quoted above. And it's the main primary source on her.

    "I’ve known American-born or raised Russians and Ukrainians who have married people from the homeland; they don’t speak English at home, even if they name their kids Jennifer (Zhenya).

    These people would have spoken Russian because they lived their whole lives in Russia. The wives who came from abroad as adults would have had an accent. The ones who were born and raised in Novgorod, Kiev, Chernigov, etc. would have spoken medieval Russian. The Scandinavians were always a small elite who had to communicate with the locals. The inflow of new Scandinavians, except for a few dynastic marriages, stopped around 1000 AD. They went native.

    " You’ve got a pure Scandinavian bloodline until the half-Scandinavian, half-Greek Vladimir Monomakh"

    Which reminds me that Monomakh left some Russian-language writings of his own.

    , @5371
    Nicholas II had only one Russian great-great-great-great-grandfather. That doesn't mean he couldn't speak Russian, idiot.
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  • @AP
    Is the Saker Russian? I suspect he is a Serb. That would explain his anti-Catholic fixation, his vicarious thrills at Russian successes vs. the West and how he seemingly understands Russia but then writes bizarre stuff like his Islam article.

    By his own admission, Saker is Russian who was born in Western Europe to Russian White emigrant parents. His only writings related to Serbia have been about the war in Bosnia, which he covered professionally as a NATO analyst. I’ve also heard Saker’s voice in his podcasts, and his accent doesn’t sound like any Serb I’ve ever met.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Thanks. I haven't followed him terribly closely.
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  • @AP
    Is the Saker Russian? I suspect he is a Serb. That would explain his anti-Catholic fixation, his vicarious thrills at Russian successes vs. the West and how he seemingly understands Russia but then writes bizarre stuff like his Islam article.

    The Saker has said that he’s descended from Russiaans who fled to Western Europe after 1917. I think he grew up in France, though I may be misremembering that last part. He certainly knows French.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Thanks!
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  • @AP
    Is the Saker Russian? I suspect he is a Serb. That would explain his anti-Catholic fixation, his vicarious thrills at Russian successes vs. the West and how he seemingly understands Russia but then writes bizarre stuff like his Islam article.

    So Serbs have an anti-Catholic fixation but are favourably disposed towards Muslims? Virtually zero possibility of you being right about that.

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    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
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  • @Anatoly Karlin

    How widespread are such attitudes in modern Russia toward the Roman Catholic Church? Is Saker typical?
     
    Not typical. Though the vast majority of Russians are nominally Orthodox, they are either Lukashenko-like atheist-but-Orthodox-atheist or hew to a very loose and informal interpretation of it that limits itself to having a small icon in their car and visiting the Church once a year. Religion has little bearing on their political/foreign policy attitudes.

    There are few Russians who are deeply Orthodox. I am not knowledgeable on these issues in any great detail but my cursory impression is that Catholic and R. Orthodox positions on social issues align the great majority of the time. The Vatican also (again in my impression) attempts to steer clear of overtly political issues issues when dealing with the Orthodox, which differentiates it from the Western world at large, both secular and Protestant. The main stumbling block it appears to me is the Catholic insistence on is taking the "primus inter pares" principle and running amok with it. But this is literally a millennial issue.

    Is the Saker Russian? I suspect he is a Serb. That would explain his anti-Catholic fixation, his vicarious thrills at Russian successes vs. the West and how he seemingly understands Russia but then writes bizarre stuff like his Islam article.

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    • Replies: @Matra
    So Serbs have an anti-Catholic fixation but are favourably disposed towards Muslims? Virtually zero possibility of you being right about that.
    , @Glossy
    The Saker has said that he's descended from Russiaans who fled to Western Europe after 1917. I think he grew up in France, though I may be misremembering that last part. He certainly knows French.
    , @Mark Eugenikos
    By his own admission, Saker is Russian who was born in Western Europe to Russian White emigrant parents. His only writings related to Serbia have been about the war in Bosnia, which he covered professionally as a NATO analyst. I've also heard Saker's voice in his podcasts, and his accent doesn't sound like any Serb I've ever met.
    , @neutral
    With a name like that he surely is jewish.
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  • @Glossy
    Russian and Ukrainian pretensions to Rus are equally silly.

    What's silly is your claim that nationalism was born in the 19th century. You're not the only nationalist I've known who denied being a nationalist. Many do. But you're the only one that I've known who has claimed that nationalism is a recent invention. This idea is usually promoted by lefty universalists instead.

    First, nationalism really is as old as history. Second, even the nationalists who don't know much history usually claim that it's ancient because that makes their movement sound more important, more elemental. Your current, particular nationalism was born recently. But that's rare.

    Sviatoslav (aka Sveinald Ingvarsson)

    Sviatoslav's contemporary Constantine Porphyrogenitos called him "Σφενδοσθλάβος" (Sfendosthlavos) in his book On Administering the Empire. The Byzantine Emperor could not have cared the slightest bit about either Scandinavian or Slavic bragging rights. And neither do I. Constantine must have used a Greek mangling of "Sviatoslav" because that's how the man was generally known in his time.

    With Málfríðr he had a son Vladimir (aka Valdamarr Sveinaldsson)

    You've made this claim before. It's not supported by the historical record. All we know about Vladimir's mother is contained in this sentence from the Primary Chronicle:

    "Володимер был от Малуши, ключницы Ольгиной, та же была сестра Добрыне; отец же им был Малък Любечанин".

    "Vladimir was from Malusha [Slavic name], the household servant of Olga. She was a sister of Dobrynya [Slavic name]. Their father was Malk [Slavic name] from Lyubech."

    There is a separate record of someone named Malfried dying in 1000 AD and some have jumped on that as "evidence" that Malusha (Slavic name) was really Malfried (Germanic name), but that's flimsy.

    And more importantly, why would the women of a tiny military elite be employed as household servants? Did the British employ female British servants in India? What do you think is the point of conquest? With this enormous land teeming with potential servants and concubines, they were going to bring one from Sweden? The mind boggles.

    When these kinds of military elites married their own women, it was strictly for dynastic purposes. If she was the daughter of some important chieftain back in Scandinavia whose support you needed in future military campaigns, it made sense. Making your own women do menial work is the opposite of what conquest is for.

    "Guess what language they spoke with their kids?"

    Probably the one in which they named most of them.

    In summary, the Rus elite went native earlier than you claim it did. Ironically, the Maidan elite shows no signs of wanting to go native. How many members of the Ukrainian government are Ukrainian now?

    OK, I found the Greek text of On Administering the Empire.

    Second line of chapter 9. I think he’s talking about Nemogardas (probably Novgorod) where Sphendosthlavos, the son of Ingor, the ruler of Rosia, lives. This was written during their lifetimes.

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  • @Hunsdon
    I shall assume that everyone else got the reference in your closing sentence but simply didn't want to comment on it. I appreciated the reference!

    ‘A language is a dialect with an army and a navy’?

    True, and both speak to an eternal truth–a nation is nothing without force of arms.

    Still, it’s not technically correct as written–American and British English are not considered separate languages, but both the USA and UK have an army and a navy–quite impressive ones, in fact.

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  • Russian and Ukrainian pretensions to Rus are equally silly.

    What’s silly is your claim that nationalism was born in the 19th century. You’re not the only nationalist I’ve known who denied being a nationalist. Many do. But you’re the only one that I’ve known who has claimed that nationalism is a recent invention. This idea is usually promoted by lefty universalists instead.

    First, nationalism really is as old as history. Second, even the nationalists who don’t know much history usually claim that it’s ancient because that makes their movement sound more important, more elemental. Your current, particular nationalism was born recently. But that’s rare.

    Sviatoslav (aka Sveinald Ingvarsson)

    Sviatoslav’s contemporary Constantine Porphyrogenitos called him “Σφενδοσθλάβος” (Sfendosthlavos) in his book On Administering the Empire. The Byzantine Emperor could not have cared the slightest bit about either Scandinavian or Slavic bragging rights. And neither do I. Constantine must have used a Greek mangling of “Sviatoslav” because that’s how the man was generally known in his time.

    With Málfríðr he had a son Vladimir (aka Valdamarr Sveinaldsson)

    You’ve made this claim before. It’s not supported by the historical record. All we know about Vladimir’s mother is contained in this sentence from the Primary Chronicle:

    “Володимер был от Малуши, ключницы Ольгиной, та же была сестра Добрыне; отец же им был Малък Любечанин”.

    “Vladimir was from Malusha [Slavic name], the household servant of Olga. She was a sister of Dobrynya [Slavic name]. Their father was Malk [Slavic name] from Lyubech.”

    There is a separate record of someone named Malfried dying in 1000 AD and some have jumped on that as “evidence” that Malusha (Slavic name) was really Malfried (Germanic name), but that’s flimsy.

    And more importantly, why would the women of a tiny military elite be employed as household servants? Did the British employ female British servants in India? What do you think is the point of conquest? With this enormous land teeming with potential servants and concubines, they were going to bring one from Sweden? The mind boggles.

    When these kinds of military elites married their own women, it was strictly for dynastic purposes. If she was the daughter of some important chieftain back in Scandinavia whose support you needed in future military campaigns, it made sense. Making your own women do menial work is the opposite of what conquest is for.

    “Guess what language they spoke with their kids?”

    Probably the one in which they named most of them.

    In summary, the Rus elite went native earlier than you claim it did. Ironically, the Maidan elite shows no signs of wanting to go native. How many members of the Ukrainian government are Ukrainian now?

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    • Disagree: Glossy
    • Replies: @Glossy
    OK, I found the Greek text of On Administering the Empire.

    Second line of chapter 9. I think he's talking about Nemogardas (probably Novgorod) where Sphendosthlavos, the son of Ingor, the ruler of Rosia, lives. This was written during their lifetimes.
    , @AP

    Russian and Ukrainian pretensions to Rus are equally silly.

    What’s silly is your claim that nationalism was born in the 19th century. You’re not the only nationalist I’ve known who denied being a nationalist. Many do.
     

    You have no evidence that I am any sort of "nationalist." I suspect you will deny that you are a Russian nationalist?

    First, nationalism really is as old as history.
     
    You are placing modern concepts into the past. You confuse "nationalism" with recognition that some people are different from one's own people (speak a different language, worship different gods) and preference for one's own clan or people. So sure, Romans saw Germanic tribes as barbarian people inferior to themselves, but they were not Roman nationalists.

    This idea is usually promoted by lefty universalists instead.
     
    Reactionary historian John Lukacs is hardly a leftist, and I pretty much accept his views about nationalism.

    Sviatoslav (aka Sveinald Ingvarsson)

    Sviatoslav’s contemporary Constantine Porphyrogenitos called him “Σφενδοσθλάβος” (Sfendosthlavos) in his book On Administering the Empire.
     

    And? He, the child of Scandinavian parents, had a Scandinavian name and a Slavic counterpart.

    About Málfríðr:

    Little is known about her, but according to Alexi Shakhmatov she was the daughter of Scandanavian warlord. The theory that she was a Slav seems to pushed by Ukrainian and Russian nationalists and is not widely accepted.


    And more importantly, why would the women of a tiny military elite be employed as household servants? Did the British employ female British servants in India?
     
    If she served the queen in her household she may not have been a commoner. If her father was prominant such as a warlord she may have been a lady-in-waiting type.

    With this enormous land teeming with potential servants and concubines, they were going to bring one from Sweden?
     
    A household servant might come from the homeland. They also employed a Varangian to tutor their son Sviatoslav.

    “Guess what language they spoke with their kids?”

    Probably the one in which they named most of them.
     

    So in your opinion a marriage consisting of a guy with two Scandinavian parents and a princess from Sweden, was Rus-speaking? This was Yaroslav (Jarizleifr) who ruled Kiev until 1054. I've known American-born or raised Russians and Ukrainians who have married people from the homeland; they don't speak English at home, even if they name their kids Jennifer (Zhenya).

    In summary, the Rus elite went native earlier than you claim it did.
     
    You claim this, but your claim isn't supported by the facts. You've got a pure Scandinavian bloodline until the half-Scandinavian, half-Greek Vladimir Monomakh , who ruled 1113-1125 - and then he married a Swedish princess. They are supported by a steady stream of Varangians coming in from the historical homeland. And no Slavs here, the murky origins of "Malusha" is the only hope on that score.

    But the myth of these people having been Slavicised is very dear to Ukrainian and Russian nationalists who want to stretch their nations as far back as possible.


    Ironically, the Maidan elite shows no signs of wanting to go native. How many members of the Ukrainian government are Ukrainian now?
     
    Ukraine's cabinet of ministers:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ukraine#Cabinet

    Out of 21 people, one is a Georgian, one is a Lithuanian married to a Ukrainian woman and living in Ukraine since 2008, and one is an Armenian from Baku who came to Ukriane in 1966 when he was 2 years old. Oh - and the finance minister is a nationalistic diaspora Ukrainian from the USA.

    Want to compare to the previous government? Ethnic Russian-Belarussian president born in Ukraine; Russian-Estonian PM from Kaluga, Russia who came to Ukraine in 1984 when he was about 40 years old; ethnic Russian Defense Minister from Krasnodar, Russia who moved to Ukraine as a 22 year old after finishing military college

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  • To the extent that Russia has any sort of big, semi-friendly, and actually useful “partner” on the international arena, it is China.

    I agree. If the neocons weren’t obsessed with Russia, they’d be spending more resources on fighting China. If the neocons ever “get” Russia in the way that they “got” it in the Yeltsin years and in the way that they “got” the Ukraine through the Maidan, the Chinese will be their next big target. The CCP surely understands this. So it’s in their self-interest to support Russia in its conflict with the West.

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  • and their statehood from the Tatar occupation which unified various small principalities into one unified state.

    This isn’t true. The Tatar-Mongol occupation of Russia started in the 1237 – 1240 period. At that time both the Mongols and the Russians (and Italians, French, Germans, English, etc.) understood statehood in the medieval way, pretty much as the property of a ruling family. For example a monarch could divide the state among his sons.

    The modern understanding of statehood developed during the 15th and 16th centuries in France, England, Spain and Russia. Well, there were real states in antiquity, but like a lot of other classical achievements they died during the Dark Ages and had to be revived later.

    Ivan III created the centralized Russian state in the late 15th century. Why did such a state arise in several European countries at the same time? Developments in artillery might have had somethig to do with it. Petty feudal lords couldn’t hide in their castles and behind their armor anymore. General civilizational progress could have had something to do with it – a bureaucratic state is impossible without a lot of literate people. The Roman, Byzantine and Chinese Empires were real states before the development of firearms, but they had large literate populations.

    Anyway, the Tatars couldn’t have bequeathed the centralized, bureaucratic state to Russia because they never created one themselves. In fact they split up into lots of small khanates in the typical medieval manner. And these khanates were picked off one-by-one by the unified Russian state which was largely created by Ivan III and his grandson Ivan IV.

    The idea that the Tatars created the Russian state comes from old cross-border taunting. “You’re half-savages, ha, ha, ha.” It has nothing to do with the historical record. There was a general European trend towards absolutism in the 15th and 16th centuries. Russia was a part of it. The Tatars missed it completely. And this is why they were ultimately conquered by Russia.

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  • @Stubborn in Germany
    Czar had to sell the Alaska, when will Putin sell Far East to Chinese?

    By the way, can you understand me? I am writing Russian -- leaving out all the definite articles and sticking one in where it does not belong -- but am not sure that it's correct?

    The sale of Alaska was not forced at all.

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  • @Seamus Padraig

    Islamic radicalism remains a big problem in the Balkans, most recently in Macedonia.
     
    If it's the KLA you're referring to here, Anatoly, I think that would definitely fall into Saker's category of a terrorist group "organized and controlled by the AngloZionist Empire."

    The theological and doctrinal differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy are minor, an order of magnitude less even than those between Catholicism and Protestantism. The differences between Christianity and Islam are fundamental and unbridgeable.
     
    That's exactly how I see it too. But Saker just can't seem to let the Crusader sacking of Constantinople go--even though the Turks did a lot a worse a few centuries later. Nevertheless, for Saker the Vatican will always be enemy #1. I just see this as one of his inherent limitations. Saker himself is an Orthodox reactionary, so for him, life is 50% or more about religion. I think that's why he tends to overstate its importance in some of his analyses.

    But, Anatoly, let me ask you something: How widespread are such attitudes in modern Russia toward the Roman Catholic Church? Is Saker typical? Or is he--as I suspect--an outlier on this issue?

    How widespread are such attitudes in modern Russia toward the Roman Catholic Church? Is Saker typical?

    Not typical. Though the vast majority of Russians are nominally Orthodox, they are either Lukashenko-like atheist-but-Orthodox-atheist or hew to a very loose and informal interpretation of it that limits itself to having a small icon in their car and visiting the Church once a year. Religion has little bearing on their political/foreign policy attitudes.

    There are few Russians who are deeply Orthodox. I am not knowledgeable on these issues in any great detail but my cursory impression is that Catholic and R. Orthodox positions on social issues align the great majority of the time. The Vatican also (again in my impression) attempts to steer clear of overtly political issues issues when dealing with the Orthodox, which differentiates it from the Western world at large, both secular and Protestant. The main stumbling block it appears to me is the Catholic insistence on is taking the “primus inter pares” principle and running amok with it. But this is literally a millennial issue.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Is the Saker Russian? I suspect he is a Serb. That would explain his anti-Catholic fixation, his vicarious thrills at Russian successes vs. the West and how he seemingly understands Russia but then writes bizarre stuff like his Islam article.
    , @Seamus Padraig
    Thanks for your reply, Anatoly. That's about what I was thinking. I have never been to Russia, but pretty much all of the Russian émigrés I have dealt with are secular or atheist--that goes for both the Christians and the Jews. I guess Saker's worldview is a function of his White/Czarist heritage.
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  • @Sean
    China will inevitably become an enemy of Russia. At the rate China is growing Russia, Japan and India will have to decide whether to join a coalition against China or FALL UNDER ITS SWAY.The great unknown in all this is what the US will do.

    http://thediplomat.com/2015/03/mearsheimers-war-with-china/
    Mearsheimer ignores that if one does not follow the kind of real politik analysis for which he is famous – that is, an analysis that looks at security rather than at sentiments, beliefs, and loyalties – a rather different conclusion emerges. First, the United States and China both have enormously pressing domestic problems. China’s slowing economic growth and the United States’ slow economic growth make it impossible for either country to – without neglecting these domestic demands – invest many taxpayer dollars in their military. Second, a military confrontation is very likely to be exceedingly costly for both sides. China cannot reasonably expect to war with the United States without suffering serious, lasting damage – at best. Third, the United States did not fare particularly well in four of its last five wars, as Henry Kissinger delicately pointed out, and it has a hard time dealing even with ISIS, which has at most 35,000 fighters and lacks a navy, air force, nuclear weapons, or significant cyber capabilities. Fourth and most importantly, the United States and China share many important shared and complementary interests. These include slowing nuclear proliferation, curbing Islamic extremism, protecting the environment, preventing climate change, and fostering economic growth and stability.
     

    http://www.nti.org/gsn/article/should-ukraine-have-gotten-rid-its-nukes/
    The East European country actually held the world's third-largest nuclear arsenal after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. But Kiev in 1994 agreed to transfer all its atomic arms to Russia for elimination, shortly thereafter joined the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty as a non-nuclear nation, and within two years was weapons-free.

    At the time, John Mearsheimer was one of very few who saw it as an unwise move.

     

    http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0020.pdf It may be remembered that Mearsheimer said Ukraine should keep nuclear weapons so as to prevent Russia trying to conquer it. The Ukrainians preferred to accept Western security guarantees, and they paid the price.

    Mearsheimer was prescient. He will be proven right about China, and who Russia's future friends will be.

    Didn’t Mearsheimer also predict that Germany would be trying to take over Europe again by the 2000s?

    Though come to think of it not that he’s wrong LOL just not right quite in the way he imagined it would be.

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    • Replies: @Sean
    Mearsheimer was proved wrong over Ukraine in the same way he was proved right over Germany. Mearsheimer predicted countries like Ukraine and Poland would do something in their national interest. Ukraine chose a different path, one that ended in catastrophe at the hands of its overbearing neighbour. Poland initially was worried about Germany claiming back lost territory, and in effect Poland capitulated to Germany.

    http://www.socialaffairsunit.org.uk/blog/archives/001975.php
    Choosing Mr Rompuy over the much-discussed and incomparably more dynamic Tony Blair, and Ms Ashton over Peter Mandelson, sends an unmistakable signal that it is business as usual at the European Union. For all his federalist enthusiasms Mr van Rompuy, in particular, is unlikely to push forward the vital military reforms needed to make Europe a factor to be reckoned with globally. As Belgian prime minister he cut the military budget to a record low: the Russians are hardly quaking in their boots.

    Europe has made the choice which the President of the Commission, Mr Barroso, demanded in September, and it has chosen irrelevance. Valery Giscard d'Estaing, the former French President, beheld the results and bewailed the "limited ambition for Europe". It was a far cry from the heady days when he had launched the European constitutional convention and told the putative founding fathers that they would be immortalised by "statues of you on horseback in the village you all come from".

    This is a very German outcome. The decisive voice in the appointment was that of the Chancellor, Angela Merkel. Her opposition to Mr Blair served to swing the French President, Mr Sarkozy, away from Tony Blair when his candidature was beginning to seem unstoppable. The appointment of Mr van Rompuy also epitomises a huge and underappreciated shift in German attitudes towards the European project and their conception of security. Since the creation of the Federal Republic in 1949, Bonn and then Berlin had sought to embed German security in an irreversible process of European political integration on the one side, and the maintenance and later expansion of NATO on the other.

    All that changed with the inclusion of Poland in both organisations. With a substantial buffer to the east, Germany reckons itself much less in need of the American security umbrella and the support of allies. In short, far from demanding a world role since the fall of the wall as many had feared - the Federal Republic has retreated into a geopolitical cocoon. She is so swaddled by friendly neighbours that future conflicts appear to be matters of choice, not desperate struggles for survival.
     

    For the first time in history Germany is cocooned within friendly states. No reason to pursue politics by other means, it has won. Like the French imposition of Senegalese and north Africans on post WW2 Rhineland (and parts of Bavaria) Germany humiliates its humbled neighbours. The Germans have a habit of coming up with ways to wipe the floor with the rest of Europe, and more. This is soft, but it is power.
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  • @ilkarnal
    'To the extent that Russia has any sort of big, semi-friendly, and actually useful “partner” on the international arena, it is China.' - What of India? Russian military supplies to India are quite significant. Supersonic cruise missiles are provided, which in the context of India's nuclear capability is quite a thing. India has also been sold a very substantial number of T-90s. These weapons are primarily aimed at China and its ally Pakistan, which is mostly a threat because of China fostering their nuclear capability.

    I do not think Russia is well served by thinking that ties with China, or indeed India are cardinally important in the realm of foreign policy. I don't think wartime alliances between big countries are as big a thing in the nuclear age, since no country will get nuked for another country's sake. The correct thing to do is to try to be friendly to - and sell to - just about everyone who is willing to reciprocate. If that's just China, fair enough, but that's far from the case.

    What of India? Russian military supplies to India are quite significant.

    India is certainly very good as well. Another billion+ country that has good relations with and a good opinion of Russia. Also unlike with China there is not even the theoretical possibility of clashes over territorial frictions since Russia and India are separated by all of Central Asia.

    But unfortunately at least for now it is nowhere near as useful as China because it does not have the financial reserves to provide investment (China has become Russia’s single biggest foreign investor this year) and possibly loans should Russia’s fiscal situation become critical (which it shouldn’t but still). The Chinese economy is also far more technologically advanced than is India’s. Should Western sanctions on Russia tighten a lot, Russia would be able to continue buying a lot of leading edge techs from China.

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  • I shall assume that everyone else got the reference in your closing sentence but simply didn’t want to comment on it. I appreciated the reference!

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    • Replies: @SFG
    'A language is a dialect with an army and a navy'?

    True, and both speak to an eternal truth--a nation is nothing without force of arms.

    Still, it's not technically correct as written--American and British English are not considered separate languages, but both the USA and UK have an army and a navy--quite impressive ones, in fact.
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  • @Kamran
    Ultimately ideology has to submit to reality as always.

    And of course, ultimately, both Islam and Orthodox christianity will disappear from the Earth, just like Zeus, Osiris, and Amaterasu disappeard. Doctrinal differences don't really matter as much as ethnic ones I would say (and there is considerable overlap between the two).

    I would even say which civilization you belong to doesn't fucking matter one bit.

    The most important thing is increasing your IQ to create bombs, and sophisticated weapons systems in order to defeat the white race. That is the only thing that matters.

    The most important thing is increasing your IQ to create bombs, and sophisticated weapons systems in order to defeat the white race. That is the only thing that matters.

    I am really liking this commentator. Wants to get right down to business instead of whining about muh oppressions!

    *tips fedora*

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  • Czar had to sell the Alaska, when will Putin sell Far East to Chinese?

    By the way, can you understand me? I am writing Russian — leaving out all the definite articles and sticking one in where it does not belong — but am not sure that it’s correct?

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    • Replies: @Mitleser
    The sale of Alaska was not forced at all.
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  • Islamic radicalism remains a big problem in the Balkans, most recently in Macedonia.

    If it’s the KLA you’re referring to here, Anatoly, I think that would definitely fall into Saker’s category of a terrorist group “organized and controlled by the AngloZionist Empire.”

    The theological and doctrinal differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy are minor, an order of magnitude less even than those between Catholicism and Protestantism. The differences between Christianity and Islam are fundamental and unbridgeable.

    That’s exactly how I see it too. But Saker just can’t seem to let the Crusader sacking of Constantinople go–even though the Turks did a lot a worse a few centuries later. Nevertheless, for Saker the Vatican will always be enemy #1. I just see this as one of his inherent limitations. Saker himself is an Orthodox reactionary, so for him, life is 50% or more about religion. I think that’s why he tends to overstate its importance in some of his analyses.

    But, Anatoly, let me ask you something: How widespread are such attitudes in modern Russia toward the Roman Catholic Church? Is Saker typical? Or is he–as I suspect–an outlier on this issue?

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    How widespread are such attitudes in modern Russia toward the Roman Catholic Church? Is Saker typical?
     
    Not typical. Though the vast majority of Russians are nominally Orthodox, they are either Lukashenko-like atheist-but-Orthodox-atheist or hew to a very loose and informal interpretation of it that limits itself to having a small icon in their car and visiting the Church once a year. Religion has little bearing on their political/foreign policy attitudes.

    There are few Russians who are deeply Orthodox. I am not knowledgeable on these issues in any great detail but my cursory impression is that Catholic and R. Orthodox positions on social issues align the great majority of the time. The Vatican also (again in my impression) attempts to steer clear of overtly political issues issues when dealing with the Orthodox, which differentiates it from the Western world at large, both secular and Protestant. The main stumbling block it appears to me is the Catholic insistence on is taking the "primus inter pares" principle and running amok with it. But this is literally a millennial issue.
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  • @AP

    Russian literary tradition traces its origins exclusively to Rus, or the “Russian Land” (otherwise known as “Kievan Rus,” a literary term that appeared much later and has been ideologically hijacked by Ukrainian nationalists).
     
    Russian and Ukrainian pretensions to Rus are equally silly. For most of its unified history the state was a trade enterprise run by Scandinavians who exploited locals Slavs and Finns. Helga/Olga was a typical example: after her husband was killed by Slavs while trying to force them to give him tribute, she massacred their settlement (burning it to the ground). And now Ukrainian and Russian Slavs fight over whether she was a Ukrainian or a Russian. An analogue would be a Mayan Mexican or a Puerto Rican black arguing over Cortes.

    The purely Scandinavian background of Rus rulers lasted for a a very long time. Sviatoslav (aka Sveinald Ingvarsson) was the product of Helga/Olga and Ingvar/Igor. With Málfríðr he had a son Vladimir (aka Valdamarr Sveinaldsson), who married Ragnhild, a Scandinavian girl from Polotsk. Their son Yaroslav the Wise spent a few years living in Swedish exile where he married Swedish princess Ingegerd Olofsdotter. Guess what language they spoke with their kids? Their son Vsevolod (aka Vissivald) ruled until 1093. Rather remarkable that for about 250 years Rus' Scandinavian rulers maintained Scandinavian "purity."

    Vsevolod married a Greek princess and thus broke the chain of pure Scandinavian rulers. Vsevolod's son Vladimir Monomakh was the first non-Scandinavian ruler of Rus. His son Mstslav (who reverted to family tradition by marrying a Swedish princess) was the last ruler of a united Rus; after 1132 the state broke apart into competing principalities de facto.

    The centralizing impulse, which reached an apogee in Muscovy, had antecedents as early as the 12th century, when “democratic” veches were replaced by strong princely rule across the Russian principalities. The Golden Horde’s system of kurultays, involving the “elections” of new khans – typically with many different candidates, with no guarantee that all of them would accept the decision – differed cardinally from the centralizing processes ongoing across contemporaneous Rus’, and which happened to be occuring most intensively in the principality, Vladimir-Suzdal’, that would later became Muscovy.
     
    Vernadsky, the Eurasianist, noted the following: 15% of 17th century Russian noble families had Tatar or oriental origins* (such as Godunov, Chaadaev, Bulgakov families); Tatar speech was fashionable in 15th century royal court; Russia got its advanced postal network and census system from the Horde (allowing organized conscription, leaving Russia centuries ahead of Europe); military organization was in the Mongol style, etc. So the impact of Mongol rule on the political/ruling class was quite substantial.

    *Note that Asian impact on Russian overall DNA is negligible, so it was a mixed Asian-European ruling class presiding over an overwhelming European (Slavic, Finnic) population

    Google has again not served you well.

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  • FWIW when I lived in Russia it became obvious rather quickly that average Russians have no great love for their Muslims neighbors, something which would prove a rather great stumbling block for a grand alliance between Islam and Orthodoxy.

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  • Russian literary tradition traces its origins exclusively to Rus, or the “Russian Land” (otherwise known as “Kievan Rus,” a literary term that appeared much later and has been ideologically hijacked by Ukrainian nationalists).

    Russian and Ukrainian pretensions to Rus are equally silly. For most of its unified history the state was a trade enterprise run by Scandinavians who exploited locals Slavs and Finns. Helga/Olga was a typical example: after her husband was killed by Slavs while trying to force them to give him tribute, she massacred their settlement (burning it to the ground). And now Ukrainian and Russian Slavs fight over whether she was a Ukrainian or a Russian. An analogue would be a Mayan Mexican or a Puerto Rican black arguing over Cortes.

    The purely Scandinavian background of Rus rulers lasted for a a very long time. Sviatoslav (aka Sveinald Ingvarsson) was the product of Helga/Olga and Ingvar/Igor. With Málfríðr he had a son Vladimir (aka Valdamarr Sveinaldsson), who married Ragnhild, a Scandinavian girl from Polotsk. Their son Yaroslav the Wise spent a few years living in Swedish exile where he married Swedish princess Ingegerd Olofsdotter. Guess what language they spoke with their kids? Their son Vsevolod (aka Vissivald) ruled until 1093. Rather remarkable that for about 250 years Rus’ Scandinavian rulers maintained Scandinavian “purity.”

    Vsevolod married a Greek princess and thus broke the chain of pure Scandinavian rulers. Vsevolod’s son Vladimir Monomakh was the first non-Scandinavian ruler of Rus. His son Mstslav (who reverted to family tradition by marrying a Swedish princess) was the last ruler of a united Rus; after 1132 the state broke apart into competing principalities de facto.

    The centralizing impulse, which reached an apogee in Muscovy, had antecedents as early as the 12th century, when “democratic” veches were replaced by strong princely rule across the Russian principalities. The Golden Horde’s system of kurultays, involving the “elections” of new khans – typically with many different candidates, with no guarantee that all of them would accept the decision – differed cardinally from the centralizing processes ongoing across contemporaneous Rus’, and which happened to be occuring most intensively in the principality, Vladimir-Suzdal’, that would later became Muscovy.

    Vernadsky, the Eurasianist, noted the following: 15% of 17th century Russian noble families had Tatar or oriental origins* (such as Godunov, Chaadaev, Bulgakov families); Tatar speech was fashionable in 15th century royal court; Russia got its advanced postal network and census system from the Horde (allowing organized conscription, leaving Russia centuries ahead of Europe); military organization was in the Mongol style, etc. So the impact of Mongol rule on the political/ruling class was quite substantial.

    *Note that Asian impact on Russian overall DNA is negligible, so it was a mixed Asian-European ruling class presiding over an overwhelming European (Slavic, Finnic) population

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    • Replies: @5371
    Google has again not served you well.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • China will inevitably become an enemy of Russia. At the rate China is growing Russia, Japan and India will have to decide whether to join a coalition against China or FALL UNDER ITS SWAY.The great unknown in all this is what the US will do.

    http://thediplomat.com/2015/03/mearsheimers-war-with-china/
    Mearsheimer ignores that if one does not follow the kind of real politik analysis for which he is famous – that is, an analysis that looks at security rather than at sentiments, beliefs, and loyalties – a rather different conclusion emerges. First, the United States and China both have enormously pressing domestic problems. China’s slowing economic growth and the United States’ slow economic growth make it impossible for either country to – without neglecting these domestic demands – invest many taxpayer dollars in their military. Second, a military confrontation is very likely to be exceedingly costly for both sides. China cannot reasonably expect to war with the United States without suffering serious, lasting damage – at best. Third, the United States did not fare particularly well in four of its last five wars, as Henry Kissinger delicately pointed out, and it has a hard time dealing even with ISIS, which has at most 35,000 fighters and lacks a navy, air force, nuclear weapons, or significant cyber capabilities. Fourth and most importantly, the United States and China share many important shared and complementary interests. These include slowing nuclear proliferation, curbing Islamic extremism, protecting the environment, preventing climate change, and fostering economic growth and stability.

    http://www.nti.org/gsn/article/should-ukraine-have-gotten-rid-its-nukes/
    The East European country actually held the world’s third-largest nuclear arsenal after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. But Kiev in 1994 agreed to transfer all its atomic arms to Russia for elimination, shortly thereafter joined the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty as a non-nuclear nation, and within two years was weapons-free.

    At the time, John Mearsheimer was one of very few who saw it as an unwise move.

    http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0020.pdf It may be remembered that Mearsheimer said Ukraine should keep nuclear weapons so as to prevent Russia trying to conquer it. The Ukrainians preferred to accept Western security guarantees, and they paid the price.

    Mearsheimer was prescient. He will be proven right about China, and who Russia’s future friends will be.

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Didn't Mearsheimer also predict that Germany would be trying to take over Europe again by the 2000s?

    Though come to think of it not that he's wrong LOL just not right quite in the way he imagined it would be.
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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @ilkarnal
    'To the extent that Russia has any sort of big, semi-friendly, and actually useful “partner” on the international arena, it is China.' - What of India? Russian military supplies to India are quite significant. Supersonic cruise missiles are provided, which in the context of India's nuclear capability is quite a thing. India has also been sold a very substantial number of T-90s. These weapons are primarily aimed at China and its ally Pakistan, which is mostly a threat because of China fostering their nuclear capability.

    I do not think Russia is well served by thinking that ties with China, or indeed India are cardinally important in the realm of foreign policy. I don't think wartime alliances between big countries are as big a thing in the nuclear age, since no country will get nuked for another country's sake. The correct thing to do is to try to be friendly to - and sell to - just about everyone who is willing to reciprocate. If that's just China, fair enough, but that's far from the case.

    Ikarnal is prob an Indian national lol.

    India is a lapdog to the west. The kind of trade India has with Russia is mainly transactional and just moves on a chess board.

    Long term, Pakistan is more of a reliable ally. So why would Russia see India as a long term partner?

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  • @ilkarnal
    'To the extent that Russia has any sort of big, semi-friendly, and actually useful “partner” on the international arena, it is China.' - What of India? Russian military supplies to India are quite significant. Supersonic cruise missiles are provided, which in the context of India's nuclear capability is quite a thing. India has also been sold a very substantial number of T-90s. These weapons are primarily aimed at China and its ally Pakistan, which is mostly a threat because of China fostering their nuclear capability.

    I do not think Russia is well served by thinking that ties with China, or indeed India are cardinally important in the realm of foreign policy. I don't think wartime alliances between big countries are as big a thing in the nuclear age, since no country will get nuked for another country's sake. The correct thing to do is to try to be friendly to - and sell to - just about everyone who is willing to reciprocate. If that's just China, fair enough, but that's far from the case.

    You are talking about war and trade.
    What about everything in between?
    Peace-time partnerships between big countries are essential.

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  • @Kamran
    Ultimately ideology has to submit to reality as always.

    And of course, ultimately, both Islam and Orthodox christianity will disappear from the Earth, just like Zeus, Osiris, and Amaterasu disappeard. Doctrinal differences don't really matter as much as ethnic ones I would say (and there is considerable overlap between the two).

    I would even say which civilization you belong to doesn't fucking matter one bit.

    The most important thing is increasing your IQ to create bombs, and sophisticated weapons systems in order to defeat the white race. That is the only thing that matters.

    And of course, ultimately, both Islam and Orthodox christianity will disappear from the Earth, just like Zeus, Osiris, and Amaterasu disappeard.

    They have not disappeared from Earth, only the cults who worshipped them.
    And even that is only mostly true.

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  • ‘To the extent that Russia has any sort of big, semi-friendly, and actually useful “partner” on the international arena, it is China.’ – What of India? Russian military supplies to India are quite significant. Supersonic cruise missiles are provided, which in the context of India’s nuclear capability is quite a thing. India has also been sold a very substantial number of T-90s. These weapons are primarily aimed at China and its ally Pakistan, which is mostly a threat because of China fostering their nuclear capability.

    I do not think Russia is well served by thinking that ties with China, or indeed India are cardinally important in the realm of foreign policy. I don’t think wartime alliances between big countries are as big a thing in the nuclear age, since no country will get nuked for another country’s sake. The correct thing to do is to try to be friendly to – and sell to – just about everyone who is willing to reciprocate. If that’s just China, fair enough, but that’s far from the case.

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    • Replies: @Mitleser
    You are talking about war and trade.
    What about everything in between?
    Peace-time partnerships between big countries are essential.
    , @Anonymous
    Ikarnal is prob an Indian national lol.

    India is a lapdog to the west. The kind of trade India has with Russia is mainly transactional and just moves on a chess board.

    Long term, Pakistan is more of a reliable ally. So why would Russia see India as a long term partner?
    , @Anatoly Karlin

    What of India? Russian military supplies to India are quite significant.
     
    India is certainly very good as well. Another billion+ country that has good relations with and a good opinion of Russia. Also unlike with China there is not even the theoretical possibility of clashes over territorial frictions since Russia and India are separated by all of Central Asia.

    But unfortunately at least for now it is nowhere near as useful as China because it does not have the financial reserves to provide investment (China has become Russia's single biggest foreign investor this year) and possibly loans should Russia's fiscal situation become critical (which it shouldn't but still). The Chinese economy is also far more technologically advanced than is India's. Should Western sanctions on Russia tighten a lot, Russia would be able to continue buying a lot of leading edge techs from China.
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  • @Kamran
    Ultimately ideology has to submit to reality as always.

    And of course, ultimately, both Islam and Orthodox christianity will disappear from the Earth, just like Zeus, Osiris, and Amaterasu disappeard. Doctrinal differences don't really matter as much as ethnic ones I would say (and there is considerable overlap between the two).

    I would even say which civilization you belong to doesn't fucking matter one bit.

    The most important thing is increasing your IQ to create bombs, and sophisticated weapons systems in order to defeat the white race. That is the only thing that matters.

    building bombs is worthless. USA, Russia, and maybe some other countries with nuclear bombs have enough bombing power to destroy the whole world. Still the winners are subsaharan Africans who cannot yet build a bomb (but probably be able to do so soon, when the technology will be sold international with decreasing prizes) but simply have more children.

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  • I fear that the world is headed toward a period even worse than now of ethnic and religious strife. I hope I am proven wrong.

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  • @Kamran
    Ultimately ideology has to submit to reality as always.

    And of course, ultimately, both Islam and Orthodox christianity will disappear from the Earth, just like Zeus, Osiris, and Amaterasu disappeard. Doctrinal differences don't really matter as much as ethnic ones I would say (and there is considerable overlap between the two).

    I would even say which civilization you belong to doesn't fucking matter one bit.

    The most important thing is increasing your IQ to create bombs, and sophisticated weapons systems in order to defeat the white race. That is the only thing that matters.

    I am curious what kind of world you envisage once all the whites are gone ? There will be billions of Africans that will still continue coming into other lands other than their own, and don’t forget the Indians and their billion plus, then there are the East Asians that don’t really have that much love for the others either.

    Is everyone going get along happily ?

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  • Ultimately ideology has to submit to reality as always.

    And of course, ultimately, both Islam and Orthodox christianity will disappear from the Earth, just like Zeus, Osiris, and Amaterasu disappeard. Doctrinal differences don’t really matter as much as ethnic ones I would say (and there is considerable overlap between the two).

    I would even say which civilization you belong to doesn’t fucking matter one bit.

    The most important thing is increasing your IQ to create bombs, and sophisticated weapons systems in order to defeat the white race. That is the only thing that matters.

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    • Replies: @neutral
    I am curious what kind of world you envisage once all the whites are gone ? There will be billions of Africans that will still continue coming into other lands other than their own, and don't forget the Indians and their billion plus, then there are the East Asians that don't really have that much love for the others either.

    Is everyone going get along happily ?
    , @Erik Sieven
    building bombs is worthless. USA, Russia, and maybe some other countries with nuclear bombs have enough bombing power to destroy the whole world. Still the winners are subsaharan Africans who cannot yet build a bomb (but probably be able to do so soon, when the technology will be sold international with decreasing prizes) but simply have more children.
    , @Mitleser

    And of course, ultimately, both Islam and Orthodox christianity will disappear from the Earth, just like Zeus, Osiris, and Amaterasu disappeard.
     
    They have not disappeared from Earth, only the cults who worshipped them.
    And even that is only mostly true.
    , @Anatoly Karlin

    The most important thing is increasing your IQ to create bombs, and sophisticated weapons systems in order to defeat the white race. That is the only thing that matters.
     
    I am really liking this commentator. Wants to get right down to business instead of whining about muh oppressions!

    *tips fedora*
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • It is not outright hostile like most of the West, nor is it parasitic on its money and energies like those friendlier-for-now-sorts-of Muslim.

    There are liberals and nationalists who disagree with that and insist that China wants to subordinate Russia and exploit its energies and territories.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Great article Anatoly!

    Can you write more about China and Russia, and how you see their relationship will play out going forward?

    What do their people really think of each other? Do you think the partnership is just temporary or will it be the beginning of a much stronger partnership going forward.

    While I do not see China as being a civilizational pillar to Russia, I do think it is interesting how each country complements the other so well. Almost like the two countries are a jigsaw puzzle that fits perfectly when placed next to each other.

    Everything China needs, if it is cut off from the west, Russia can supply and vice versa.

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  • Yes. Allies are based on common interests, not on feelings. Feelings come from doing stuff together, not the other way around.

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  • Commenter Romanian calls our attention to this relevant passage from Edward Gibbon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire about the decision of the Emperor Valens in 376 A.D. to permit -- and even assist -- the crossing of the Danube, until then the frontier of Roman civilization, by German barbarians. In the opinion...
  • […] Related: The evil of encouraging refugees. Related: The EU reveals its priorities. Related: Refugees in the Roman era. Related: Revenge of the rest against the west. Related: Immigration and absolution. Related: […]

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  • Please do not allude to germans being goths or huns scythians it is quite deceptive we have no idea who these people were? Thank you

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Forget about Rome. This happened recently in Africa. After the Rwandan Genocide in 1994, millions of refugees were allowed into the Democratic Republic of Congo. Within 12 years, 6 million (with an M) Congolese were killed in wars by the refugees and their opponents. The Congolese government was destroyed and it’s leader, Mobutu, died shortly afterwards. His successor, Laurent Kabila, was also killed by Rwandan agents. Till today, Congolese minerals and diamonds worth billions of dollars have been stolen by the refugees, their backers and their opponents.
    The same thing happened in Kosovo. The Albanians were originally refugees. Today, Serbia has lost a huge chunk of it’s history and territory. Sometimes it pays to be stone hearted. Listening to the UN is a recipe for disaster

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  • Chapter XXV Part V

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  • Quote from Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire Vol. 2

    “The inaction of the negroes does not seem to be the effect either of their virtue or of their pusillanimity. They indulge, like the rest of mankind, their passions and appetites; and the adjacent tribes are engaged in frequent acts of hostility. But their rude ignorance has never invented any effectual weapons of defence, or of destruction; they appear incapable of forming any extensive plans of government, or conquest; and the obvious inferiority of their mental faculties has been discovered and abused by the nations of the temperate zone. Sixty thousand blacks are annually embarked from the coast of Guinea, never to return to their native country; but they are embarked in chains; and this constant emigration, which, in the space of two centuries, might have furnished armies to overrun the globe, accuses the guilt of Europe and the weakness of Africa”.

    Excerpt From: Gibbon, Edward. “History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire — Volume 2. Pg. 4597-4599″ iBooks

    The Africans must have read this and realized Gibbon was right! They certainly can take over Europe and are out to prove it.

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  • This is the best illustration I’ve seen of Santayana’s aphorism, “Those who do not study the past are doomed to repeat it.”

    Can we blame the Ivy League for this failure? History gets short shrift in the contemporary academy, which emphasizes critical thinking but requires few facts be learned upon which such thinking can be exercised. Knowledge good => ignorance bad.

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  • This is the best illustration I’ve seen of Santayana’s dictum, “Those who do not study the past are doomed to repeat it.”

    Can we blame the Ivy League for this failure? World history gets short shrift in the contemporary academy, which emphasizes critical thinking but requires few historical facts be learned upon which such thinking can be exercised.

    Ignorance begets naivete.

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  • @Zach
    From "The Fall of the Roman Empire" by Peter Heather (published 2005)

    "In the summer of 376, a vast throng of people – men, women and
    children – suddenly appeared on the north bank of the River Danube
    asking for safe haven in Roman territory. One source, not our best,
    reports that 200,000 refugees appeared beside the river; Ammianus,
    that there were too many to count.

    The Romans quickly learned what lay behind all the mayhem.
    Again in Ammianus’ words: ‘The seed-bed and origin of all this
    destruction and of the various calamities inflicted by the wrath of Mars,
    which raged everywhere with extraordinary fury, I find to be this: the
    people of the Huns.’

    Ammianus was writing nearly twenty years later, by which time the
    Romans had a better understanding of what had brought the Goths to
    the Danube. Even in the 390s, though, the full effects of the arrival of
    the Huns were far from apparent. The appearance of the Goths beside
    the river in the summer of 376 was the first link in a chain of events that
    would lead directly from the rise of Hunnic power on the fringes of
    Europe to the deposition of the last western emperor, Romulus
    Augustulus, almost exactly one hundred years later. None of this was
    even remotely conceivable in 376, and there would be many twists and
    turns on the way. The arrival of Goths on the Danube marked the start
    of a reshuffling of Europe-wide balances of power....."

    Heather concludes his book:

    "The west Roman state fell not because of the weight of its own ‘stupendous fabric', but because its Germanic neighbours had responded to its power in ways that the Romans could never have foreseen. There is in all this a
    pleasing denouement. By virtue of its unbounded aggression, Roman
    imperialism was ultimately responsible for its own destruction."

    Are radical Islamists the new Huns? If the moderate Muslim majorities will not fight for their rights, is it the West’s responsibility to take them in? I don’t think so. A people that will not help itself cannot be helped. That applies to us in the West just as much as to those in the Middle East.

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  • Demographic replacement is cultural suicide. Wasn’t that Auster’s thesis in a nutshell?

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  • @The Z Blog
    This policy or resettling barbarians into Roman territory did not start in the fourth century. In started in the third century. The political turmoil and warfare along the borders left vast swaths of land depopulated. The solution landed upon was to invite German tribes to resettle into these lands. The condition was they disarmed and became farmers.

    These economic migrants also made up the auxilia used to defend the frontier in what Edward Luttwak describes as defense-in-depth. By the end of the fourth century, Rome was depending entirely on non-citizens for defense. I'm sure that will not be an issue for Europe as all of these Arab Muslim will embrace multiculturalism and abandon Islam in favor of materialism.

    Sweet. That makes the 20th century wars Western Civilization’s “Crisis of the Third Century” analogue.

    My new favourite Roman/modern analogy.

    It has the flaws inherent in all such comparisons, but still a source of gratifying clarity.

    I wonder what figures of the recent past that would cast in such roles as Diocletian or Constantine. There is an oversupply of candidates for the roles of Valens, his lackeys, and of Honorius.

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  • It is interesting why Valens lost at Hadrianople. Constantine had broken the Legions into smaller units and posted them in urban areas to ensure regional loyalty. The frontiers were guarded by (in their modern-day formulations), national guard troops and special forces. As a result, the Legions ceased to train in and lost their ability to wage large-scale formation warfare. When the Legions assembled at Hadrianople, they were poorly led and poorly trained for the task at hand. When the Goths attacked their flank, the Romans could not “wheel” their formation to counter the attack. The Goths rolled up the Roman flank and, as at Cannae, surrounded and slaughtered the Romans.

    The analogy between the current mass migrations into the Anglo-Saxon Empire and the disaster at Hadrianople can be extended to current US military doctrine. Like the Romans, the United States has also altered is military doctrine to replace training to wage large-scale formation warfare with small unit actions by special forces chasing barbarian raiders around the periphery of the Empire. It is a good guess that the United Stats has also lost its ability to wage large-scale formation warfare. The Russians, however, continue to train to fight such wars.

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  • @unpc downunder
    I assume these migrants are aware that Western Europe is running out of welfare money, and more and more of what there is will have to go towards paying for old white people's pensions and hip operations?

    There's a looming battle between young immigrants and old whites, and even old white people can be dangerous when threatened by immigrants trying to steal their pensions.

    Too bad those old White people can’t be roused to defend their own White children though.

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  • I assume these migrants are aware that Western Europe is running out of welfare money, and more and more of what there is will have to go towards paying for old white people’s pensions and hip operations?

    There’s a looming battle between young immigrants and old whites, and even old white people can be dangerous when threatened by immigrants trying to steal their pensions.

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    • Replies: @Jason
    Too bad those old White people can't be roused to defend their own White children though.
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  • The only permanent destruction that civilizations suffer is from racial change.

    It is shocking to me that so many White parents are nonchalant about the misery they are leaving to their children just so they won’t be called “rayyyccisss”.

    There is a special place in Hell for cowards like that.

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  • anon • Disclaimer says:

    Why can’t we look back on 2015 with the same ironic detachment?

    Civilizations have been destroyed from within for many thousands of years.

    For people of White European descent that has worked out well because if all those previous civilizations hadn’t been destroyed we wouldn’t be here

    - France, Germany etc would just be part of Greater Sumeria, or Greater Babylonia, Egypt, Persia etc.

    I expect that it being our turn to have our civilization destroyed from within would be why it’s harder to be detached.

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  • Maybe someone should do a Classics illustrated Comic Book version of Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire? Then someone might make it into a movie and these stupid fuckers can see how this story is going to turn out.
    I think these idiots would welcome a Dalek Invasion if it kept another Hitler from being elected. If they think Mohammed is better than Hitler on the Jewish Question they must have the historical literacy of Goober on the Andy Griffith Show.

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  • @Hippopotamusdrome


    Sounds about right.
    All the “migrants” are, of course, young men of what the US deems as “Military-age”

     

    But could they field a modern army that could win a pitched battle against us? I don't think so.

    Do they have to? Look at Iraq, that recent past may become Europe’s not-too-distant future.

    I do not believe that Eurofor will be wiped out in some Cannaeesque Battle of the Rhineland or any such thing, but I could easily see bands of “warriors for Social Justice (and Islam)” pillaging town after town without an effective or organized military response. The drip and drab losses of such insurgencies will break what is left of the West’s military power as surely as losing a field campaign. After all, you can blow up an apartment building full of terrorists with artillery and drone strikes quite easily… when it is thousands of miles from your home in a country you give not one whit about. When it is half-filled with your own neighbors and family, that is a different story. Willpower, not fancy weapons is what wins wars. The weapons can only increase the effectiveness of a fighting nation’s will to win, not replace it.

    While I was digging through info on Western Rome’s fall, I discovered this play by Swiss author Friedrich Dürrenmatt: Romulus the Great.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_the_Great

    It is an ahistorical piece where the last Emperor of Western Rome deliberately allows his nation to be destroyed by the Germans because he believes it is too violent and morally compromised to be allowed to continue to exist. I’ll take a guess that if Frau Merkel ever read it, she was rooting for the Emperor, but not because she was proud of her German ancestors.

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  • From “The Fall of the Roman Empire” by Peter Heather (published 2005)

    “In the summer of 376, a vast throng of people – men, women and
    children – suddenly appeared on the north bank of the River Danube
    asking for safe haven in Roman territory. One source, not our best,
    reports that 200,000 refugees appeared beside the river; Ammianus,
    that there were too many to count.

    The Romans quickly learned what lay behind all the mayhem.
    Again in Ammianus’ words: ‘The seed-bed and origin of all this
    destruction and of the various calamities inflicted by the wrath of Mars,
    which raged everywhere with extraordinary fury, I find to be this: the
    people of the Huns.’

    Ammianus was writing nearly twenty years later, by which time the
    Romans had a better understanding of what had brought the Goths to
    the Danube. Even in the 390s, though, the full effects of the arrival of
    the Huns were far from apparent. The appearance of the Goths beside
    the river in the summer of 376 was the first link in a chain of events that
    would lead directly from the rise of Hunnic power on the fringes of
    Europe to the deposition of the last western emperor, Romulus
    Augustulus, almost exactly one hundred years later. None of this was
    even remotely conceivable in 376, and there would be many twists and
    turns on the way. The arrival of Goths on the Danube marked the start
    of a reshuffling of Europe-wide balances of power…..”

    Heather concludes his book:

    “The west Roman state fell not because of the weight of its own ‘stupendous fabric’, but because its Germanic neighbours had responded to its power in ways that the Romans could never have foreseen. There is in all this a
    pleasing denouement. By virtue of its unbounded aggression, Roman
    imperialism was ultimately responsible for its own destruction.”

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    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    Are radical Islamists the new Huns? If the moderate Muslim majorities will not fight for their rights, is it the West's responsibility to take them in? I don't think so. A people that will not help itself cannot be helped. That applies to us in the West just as much as to those in the Middle East.
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  • @Richard

    It is interesting that the assertion of State authority over that of the Church (ie Byzantine Iconoclasm – “relics thrown into the sea … Monks were apparently forced to parade in the Hippodrome, each hand-in-hand with a woman, in violation of their vows”) came after major reverses at the hands of Islam. Maybe the Emperor had worked out what the problem was!
     
    In the last days of the Byzantine Empire, when the emperor was trying to tie together alliances for the sake of saving what was left of it from conquest by the Muslim Ottoman Empire, the Orthodox priests were notorious for their apathy and backbiting. "Better the Sultan's turban than the Pope's mitre" was their watchword. They got what they wanted and 600 years later Christians are virtually extinct in Asia Minor.

    Yes, it was a very strange, and if I may, Middle Eastern-like religious fanaticism, an obsession with being ‘Hellenes’, that throttled any rapprochement with the West, fractured any effort, and shrunk the Imperial horizon.

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  • @Kamran
    Dude, relax. I'm not blaming. Just remarking, I haven't come across something so unusual on the web in a while. It was hard to follow his writing in some of his rants.

    I was going for a different tone. More like African-American commiserations :p

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  • @Romanian
    Man, I was just looking for an okay translation of Galba's end by Tacitus. This guy was the first in the list that was ok. It's my fault that few mainstream sites have digital versions of Tacitus that show up on Google? It's like Dylann Roof finding out about interracial crime from some small fry group's website, instead of the CNN or MSNBC website.

    Dude, relax. I’m not blaming. Just remarking, I haven’t come across something so unusual on the web in a while. It was hard to follow his writing in some of his rants.

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    • Replies: @Romanian
    I was going for a different tone. More like African-American commiserations :p
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  • The more videos and pictures of “refugees” I see, the more I think Europe needs to reaquaint themselves with the fable of the scorpion and the turtle.

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  • @Kamran
    Holy fuck that guys website is insane. Every single link links to another of his conspiracies. He must be an autistic psycho of some sort.


    Here he repudiates Edwin Hubble's theory of the expansion of the universe and presents his own theory instead: http://www.ourcivilisation.com/thacker/bigbang.htm

    Man, I was just looking for an okay translation of Galba’s end by Tacitus. This guy was the first in the list that was ok. It’s my fault that few mainstream sites have digital versions of Tacitus that show up on Google? It’s like Dylann Roof finding out about interracial crime from some small fry group’s website, instead of the CNN or MSNBC website.

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    • Replies: @Kamran
    Dude, relax. I'm not blaming. Just remarking, I haven't come across something so unusual on the web in a while. It was hard to follow his writing in some of his rants.
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  • Bangladeshi muslim girl, shot by Indian border guards, during attempt to climb over Indian border fence

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  • @Romanian
    The Murder of Emperor Galba

    http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/tacitusc/histries/chap2.htm

    Otho wanted to depose Galba, who was the first Emperor in the year of Four Emperors, so he hatched a conspiracy with some soldiers. Galba was eventually murdered, but not before fate had given the Romans a few chances to thwart the evil plan.

    "27. On 15 January, Galba was offering sacrifice in front of the Temple of Apollo (7). The soothsayer Umbricius pronounced the entrails of the victim to be ill-omened, and predicted the imminence of a plot and the presence of a traitor within the palace. As Otho was standing next to Galba, he overheard this and gleefully interpreted it in the contrary sense as favourable to his own designs. A few minutes later, his freedman Onomastus brought him a message: the architect and builders were waiting for him. This was the pre-arranged code indicating that the troops were already assembling and the plot ripe. ..... Here twenty-three members of the bodyguard gave him the imperial salutation. Otho was appalled that they were so few in number, but they quickly placed him in a chair, drew their swords and hurried him off. Roughly the same number of soldiers joined the party on the way — some privy to the plot, many bewildered, a proportion shouting and flourishing their swords, others again maintaining silence, with the intention of suiting their reaction to the event.

    28. The duty-officer at the barracks was the tribune Julius Martialis. It is hard to say whether he was overwhelmed by the mere idea of such an immense and wicked enterprise, or whether he feared that the rot went deeper among the men and that resistance on his part might spell death. In any case, he gave many people the impression that he was in the plot. The other tribunes, and the centurions, also preferred the advantage of the moment to the incalculable risks of honour. Their mood may be summed up thus: a shocking crime was committed on the unscrupulous initiative of few individuals, with the blessing of more, and amid the passive acquiescence of all.

    Swords were drawn to deal with recalcitrants. Near the Basin of Curtius, the panic of his bearers caused Galba to be flung sprawling from his chair. His last words are variously recorded by the conflicting voices of hatred and admiration. Some say that he grovelled, and asked what he had done to deserve his fate, begging a few days' grace to pay the bounty. The majority of the historians believe that he voluntarily bared his throat to the assassins, telling them to strike and be done with it, if this was what seemed best for the country. Little did the murderers care what he said.

    45. A complete transformation seemed to have taken place in both senators and people. They were now a mob stampeding in the direction of the barracks, each man trying to outstrip his neighbour in the race and catch up with those who led the field. They cursed Galba, complimented the soldiers on their choice, and covered Otho's hand with kisses. These demonstrations were multiplied in proportion to their insincerity. Otho for his part welcomed even single individuals who came up to him, and restrained the greed and menaces of his men by word and look. The consul-designate Marius Celsus had shown Galba affection and loyalty to the bitter end. For this the soldiers now demanded his head, for they resented his energy and high principle as if they were faults of character. It was only too obvious that they were looking for an excuse to set about bloodshed and plunder and the annihilation of every decent Roman. But Otho was not yet in a position to prevent outrage-though he could already command it. So he pretended to be angry, and by ordering Celsus to be put in irons and undertaking that he would receive a heavier punishment later on, rescued him from immediate death.

    46. After that, the troops got their way in everything. They chose their own pretorian prefects.
    There was a demand for the remission of the payments traditionally made to centurions to secure exemption from duty. This was a kind of annual tax payable by the other ranks. As much as a quarter of a company's strength would be scattered high and low on leave or loitering in the actual barracks, so long as they squared the company commander. The extent of these exactions and the methods employed to meet them were nobody's business. Highway robbery, theft or taking on jobs as servants were the means by which they paid for their time off. Besides this, the richer a soldier was, the more he was subjected to fatigues and ill-treatment until he agreed to purchase exemption. Finally, when his money had given out and he had got into an idle and unhealthy state, he would return to his unit, reduced from affluence to poverty and from vigour to sloth. This process was repeated interminably; and the same destitution and indiscipline ruined man after man, driving them herd-like down the slope that leads to mutiny, dissension and, in the last resort, civil war. 47. The long day of villainy drew to its end. There remained the last horror — a mood of jubilation. The senate was summoned by the urban praetor, the other magistrates surpassed each other in feats of flattery, and the senators hurried hot-foot to the meeting. A decree was passed giving Otho the tribunician power, the title 'Augustus' and all the imperial prerogatives. Everybody made a desperate effort to obliterate the taunts and insults which had been freely bandied about; no one was actually made to feel that they rankled in Otho's mind, and whether in fact he had renounced revenge or merely postponed it was a question which remained unanswered owing to the shortness of his reign.

    49. The body of Galba lay disregarded for many hours, and under cover of night marauders offered it repeated outrage. Finally his steward Argius, an old retainer of his, buried it in a humble grave in the grounds of Galba's private villa. The head fell into the hands of army sutlers and servants, who were responsible for impaling and mutilating it. It was only on the following day that it was found in front of the tomb of Patrobius, a freedman of Nero who had been sentenced by Galba. It was then laid with the ashes of the body, which had already been cremated.

    Such was the fate of Servius Galba. In the course of seventy-three years he had lived a successful life spanning the reigns of five emperors — reigns which proved luckier for him than his own. He came of a family that could boast ancient nobility and great wealth. His own personality was something of a compromise: he had good qualities and in equal measure bad. Having won a reputation, he neither despised nor exploited it. He harboured no designs upon other people's property, was thrifty with his own, and where the state was involved showed himself a positive miser. A tolerant attitude towards courtiers and officials attracted no censure when they happened to be honest; but his lack of perception if they were not was quite inexcusable. However, distinguished birth and the alarms of the time disguised his lack of enterprise and caused it to be described as wisdom. In the prime of life he attained military distinction in the Rhineland; as proconsul, he administered Africa with moderation, and his control of Nearer Spain in his latter years showed a similar sense of fair-play. Indeed, so long as he was a subject, he seemed too great a man to be one, and by common consent possessed the makings of a ruler — had he never ruled. "

    Holy fuck that guys website is insane. Every single link links to another of his conspiracies. He must be an autistic psycho of some sort.

    Here he repudiates Edwin Hubble’s theory of the expansion of the universe and presents his own theory instead: http://www.ourcivilisation.com/thacker/bigbang.htm

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    • Replies: @Romanian
    Man, I was just looking for an okay translation of Galba's end by Tacitus. This guy was the first in the list that was ok. It's my fault that few mainstream sites have digital versions of Tacitus that show up on Google? It's like Dylann Roof finding out about interracial crime from some small fry group's website, instead of the CNN or MSNBC website.
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  • As the New York Times explained this week, mass migration across the Danube offers the receiving country “an opportunity to rejuvenate its aging demographics and ensure its economic prosperity …”

    This is one of my pet peeves about demographic commentary.

    If you are bringing in lots of foreigners, and/or if those foreigners are having lots of children, it’s not your demographics that are being rejuvenated. It’s theirs. It’s like how some American commentators brag about how, unlike Europe, “we” in America have replacement-level fertility.

    No, “we” don’t, unless you think that a nation has no a priori relationship with the people who created and settled it.

    Can you imagine elites in Israel saying, “The Arabs are rejuvenating our demographics, hooray!” But that’s par for the course in every other Western country. If terms like “cuckservative” and “Cultural Marxist” didn’t exist, we would have to invent them.

    Is it too much to ask for an elite media establishment that doesn’t regard the European peoples as demographically expendable?

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  • The Ottoman Empire often looked at itself as being the true successor to the Roman Empire and referred to the city of Rome as the “red apple,” something to be reach for and plucked. The Ottoman sultans also were the self-proclaimed caliphs of the Muslim world. Perhaps when the smoke clears, we’ll look back and say ISIS was a first attempt to re-establish both the caliphate and a Muslim empire stretching over Asia and Europe.

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  • Bulgaria is encompasses old Thrace and Moesia, the provinces which the Goths devastated. As such, they know better. Ottoman oppression helped too.

    http://front.bg/analizi/u-nas/znam-kakvo-shte-stane

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Steve,

    Did Jews (those either identifying as such or identifying as Christians) have any influence on Roman decisionmaking as to immigration and citizenship in the Empire? I am thinking in particular of the Valens decision as to the Goths, but perhaps there are other examples of specific instances or more general policies and philosophies.

    Jews often say of their presence in Europe, “We came with the Romans,” so they must have at least had some presence and interaction.

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  • […] You can find out how well this strategy worked out, personally, for Valens here. […]

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  • @anony-mouse
    Much more relevant for the United States:

    Your forgetting another mistake from Valens' time.

    From wikipedia:

    Valens inherited the eastern portion of an empire that had recently retreated from most of its holdings in Mesopotamia and Armenia because of a treaty that his predecessor Jovian had made with Shapur II of the Sassanid Empire.

    Lesson: Avoid making deals with Sassanids-although I assume most people here, ignorant of history, would disagree.

    “Lesson: Avoid making deals with Sassanids-although I assume most people here, ignorant of history, would disagree.”

    I haven’t noticed that people here are ignorant of history. Quite the contrary. You are, perhaps.

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  • @Haploid
    Is this a fruitful analogy, Steve? Those barbarians ended up kinda alright, re: their progeny made it so you can even post this.

    “salvo says:

    Is this a fruitful analogy, Steve? Those barbarians ended up kinda alright, re: their progeny made it so you can even post this.”

    It isn’t in this respect. Arabs aren’t Germans. In the last 1500 years or so, the descendents of those barbarians (and others like them) created modern Europe. During that same interval, the Arabs created modern Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and the Gulf States. Notice any differences?

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  • @SPMoore8
    What's actually relevant to the United States is the ongoing Latinization of our country, making deals with modern day "Sassanids" (Iran) is much less of an issue for us, although it appears to be a big issue with Israel.

    Basically, to Americans, what happens in the Middle East is irrelevant as long as the oil flows. The US has already fought to long wars in the region (not counting things like Libya) and has done so with very little popular support and nothing in the way of distributing the burden in terms of taxes or conscription.

    Not being ignorant of history, I also know it's a bad idea to give blank checks to allies.

    The US is a major oil producer. Chinese demand will rebound but unlikely to 2009-2013 levels. Iran needs oil at around $200 a barrel or so to keep men with guns paid.

    Thus their only recourse is to suppress or eliminate Gulf AND US oil production.

    Thus we will get war, or simply surrender to Iran and live like its 1899.

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  • @David
    Gibbon comments on World War T too: "We may observe that the use and value of those effeminate slaves [eunuchs] gradually rose with the decline of the empire."

    There was one heroic eunuch in Roman history:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narses

    He reconquered much of Italy from the Goths on behalf of the Eastern Roman Empire in a series of brilliant battles, then defended it from a Frankish invasion.

    In retrospect, it would have been preferable for the Eastern Empire to have made peace with the Goths in Italy. The hundreds of years of war between the increasingly civilized Germanics and the Eastern Romans left Italy devastated and depopulated. The Byzantines after these wars were unable to defend their eastern frontier from the Muslim conquests, and likewise the Gothic kingdoms of Northern Africa and Spain were also conquered.

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  • @MEH 0910
    Nicholas Kristof in the New York Times: Refugees Who Could Be Us

    WATCHING the horrific images of Syrian refugees struggling toward safety — or in the case of Aylan Kurdi, 3, drowning on that journey — I think of other refugees. Albert Einstein. Madeleine Albright. The Dalai Lama.

    And my dad.

    In the aftermath of World War II, my father swam the Danube River to flee Romania and become part of a tide of refugees that nobody much cared about. Fortunately, a family in Portland, Ore., sponsored his way to the United States, making this column possible.

     

    I replied somewhere else that I read that article and his father appears to have been a Polish Armenian from the part of Poland that was incorporated by Ukraine. He merely passed through Romania after escaping prison, didn’t like what he saw (the beginnings of Communist rule), and went to greener pastures. Notably, he passed on France because he doubted that they would think of his future children as being entirely French, even though he was French educated and fluent in the language. Basically, he started out as a refugee, then became a migrant.

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  • @Alastair Trumpington

    All the “migrants” are, of course, young men of what the US deems as “Military-age”

     

    Somewhat off topic: I have a theory that a large proportion of the current wave of Syrians comes from the Alawite upper class, who have thus far managed to avoid personally taking part in the conflict but can no longer avoid it. They are essentially draft dodgers who would understandably rather go to Germany than face death at the hands of ISIS.

    Why would the Alawites leave when Assad is keeping the others in check and Western Syria is relatively safe and prosperous? The little kid that died was a Kurd, for instance. I’m sure most refugees are Sunni who hate Assad’s guts.

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