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    Great map of the Ephemeral States of the Russian Civil War: The state collapse of the old order temporarily brought all sorts of strange new political formations into existence, as is the universal pattern ("the empire long united must divide"). The Idel Ural Republic. The Republic of North Ingria. Even a "Green Ukraine" in the...
  • Well, the Soviets certainly supported the Finnish Socialist Worker’s Republic. It was actually originally called just the Republic of Finland – the goofy longer name was picked by Lenin.

    “Republics” of Uhtua and Ingria were just border towns trying to join Finland with some support from Finland and certain White Russian leaders. You could add more of these to the map as there was a similar project of ethnic Swedish parts to separate from Finland/Russia and Sweden actually invaded Finland (and some Swedish volunteers in the Finnish White army betrayed it in favor of their ethno-separatist project):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_%C3%85land

    The Senate solved this by letting the Germans invade Finland; Sweden backed off but this started a rift between the pro-German Senate and the White Army leaders which eventually led to another short-lived state, the German-created Kingdom of Finland…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Finland_(1918)

    …which did not live long enough for the King of Finland to actually visit Finland. The Kingdom of Finland rejected all the republican legislation that had been drafted after the February revolution and essentially restored the monarchy of the Grand Duchy but replaced the Tsar with a German. This state only really controlled Helsinki and its surroundings which had been taken by the Germans (and not the White Army).

    After Germany surrendered in WWI and pulled out, the Kingdom of Finland was taken over by general Mannerheim and the remaining pro-Romanov monarchists so Finland was almost the same monarchy that it was before all the revolutions. But for this version of the state to survive it would have needed to connect with the Whites in Russia and they would have had to win the war there.

    General Yudenich offered to support Finnish independence and to cede roughly the territory marked here as Uhtua to Finland if Finland joined the attack on Petrograd that he was planning. Kolchak strongly opposed this (and Mannerheim wanted to support him regardless which was political suicide). With the lack of a consistent treaty offer from Russian Whites Finland started negotiating with Russian Reds again and the Finnish-Soviet peace treaty in 1920 dropped claims on “North Ingria” and “Uhtua”.

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  • “Soviet Republic of Soldiers and Fortress-Builders of Naissaar” sounds pretty fucking badass, not gonna lie.

    I like the “Confederated Republic of Altai” too, with their humble aim of rebuilding Genghis Khan’s empire.

    Green Ukraine is just further proof that Ukraine is a type of cancer that will metastasize if left untreated.

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  • Much is written about slavery and its aftermaths. A large part of this is frenetically modified history issuing from people both excited and poorly read, a comic-book version apparently intended to support agendas of the impenetrably adolescent Left. A few points: First, slavery was always bad, frequently hideous, much worse in the Deep South than...
  • You could have saved time and just published the 13th paragraph, which pretty much nullifies any points you might have made previous to it or following it:

    “Seventh, Southerners believed that they knew the Negroes and that they could not function as equals of whites and thus would destroy society. Except for ardent abolitionists–perhaps for ardent abolitionists–so did Northerners, but by then these latter didn’t have many Negroes and never expected to. Today, a century and a half after the Civil War, the Southerners seem to have been right.”

    Us Northerners have, from time to time, suspected y’all felt this way, but I don’t recall ever having seen it put down quite so starkly in black and white. I guess those Northerners (as a member I’m going to be so bold as to assume there were a few) who didn’t susbscribe to that line of reasoning would have come round to your way of thinking sooner if they had only experienced the trials and tribulations of actually owning slaves? Perhaps getting to know gentlemen like Thurgood Marshall, James Baldwin, Sidney Poitier, Quincy Jones, etc., etc., etc. might have reshaped some of those Southern beliefs. Or maybe not.

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  • "Some crazy person just compared President Abraham Lincoln to Hitler. Yes, this just happened on CNN and Brooke Baldwin's reaction was perfect." So scribbled one Ricky Davila on Social Media (Twitter). Indeed, an elderly Southern gentleman had ventured that President Lincoln, not General Lee, murdered civilians, a point even a Court historian and a Lincoln...
  • @Jake
    Mercer is far less simplistic than your assessment.

    What Mercer stresses is that someone as astute as Hitler in terms of grabbing power and centralizing it and wielding it brutally, no matter the body count, recognized Lincoln's abilities and successes in that very area. Hitler saw in Lincoln a precursor to himself - not in the specifics of political belief but in grasping power, centralizing it, and using it essentially amorally.

    And Hitler certainly loved the the Lincoln myth that grew up, making Abe the sacrificial lamb to American (imperial) democracy. Germanic romanticism has always had a Death Wish/suicide component, and Hitler was no exception. He would have loved to become the German Lincoln - killed only to be remade by his supporters as the nation's secular dying god.

    Until we see those matters, we cannot see that all that centralizing of power in DC under Lincoln, which was necessary to fight his war, has been indispensable to each stage of the growing Leftist horror.

    I applaud your comment on this.

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  • "Anybody who would trash Lee and laud Lincoln is either stupid as a post or just plain evil," said a sage reader. This applies in spades to anyone who would laud the Radical Republicans of 1865, as one TV GOP blonde has recently, and asininely, done. The Radical Republicans, if you can believe it, considered...
  • @Curle
    Reading your comment I gather you didn't read the article?

    So what’s your objection to her article other than your ad hominem nonsense?

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  • @Logan
    If a 21st century white American and his family were captured and enslaved, would he be morally justified to use violence to attempt to free his family? Of course he would.

    So why would a 19th century black American not be equally justified in doing the same thing?

    That’s irrelevant. The issue was, given that a horrible crime had been committed in bringing African slaves to America, what was the most decent and speedy way of returning them to Africa so that America would not have to deal with bitter, eternal hatred on the part of the majority of Africans and the absolute impossibility of ever living with them in harmony under any circumstance?

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  • @Clark Westwood

    The Radical Republicans, if you can believe it, considered Abraham Lincoln a moderate (a bad thing, in their book).
     
    It always cracks me up how modern liberal historians (but I repeat myself), in their worship of Lincoln the "Great Emancipator" and standard-bearer of federal oppression of local governments, try to downplay/ignore/distract from Lincoln's post-war plans for speedy re-admission of the Confederate states, restoration of civil rights to former "Rebs," and gradual enfranchisement of blacks. Historians also want to ignore the fact that many Northern states opposed complete enfranchisement of blacks--states that had a lot fewer blacks to worry about than those in the South.

    How has that “complete enfranchisement” dealy worked out for us? Ms. Mercer can be instructive on how it worked out in S. Africa.

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  • this article is straight nonsense. Johnson totally gave in to the confederate demands, blacks in the south had no real rights, it was still pretty much slavery just with a different politically correct name. The southern states oppressed blacks during reconstruction and after it, which lead to the jim crow laws, blacks were second class citizens. Check out the new book ‘The Republic for which It Stands’ by Richard White its part of the Oxford History of the United States series and covers us history from 1865 to 1896

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  • @Michael Kenny
    Something that always intrigues me as a European is why Americans spend so much time raking over old coals instead of solving today's problems and looking to the future.

    That’s rich given the European obsession with Nazis. Dead and gone as of 70 years ago but in European political discourse as fresh as the morning dew. Do tell me more about how Americans are unique in spending so much time raking over old coals.

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  • @JustJeff
    Her father worked against apartheid and now she preaches how awful South Africa is now. I don't understand why anyone still publishes her dreck.

    So you’re saying that S. Africa isn’t awful?

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  • @Binyamin
    The Jewish Ilana Mercer acknowledges approvingly 'Dr' Boyd D. Cathey, a holocaust denier- Cathey had a close association in the past with a holocaust denying organisation. Wow! No wonder even fringe on-line publications keep firing her. Trump can do at least some good during his miserable (and hopefully short) presidency by deporting all foreign born extremists and hate preachers. Perhaps he is deporting the wrong people?

    A trivial, inconsequential comment. Five seconds of my life utterly wasted.

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  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    I just call them like I see them.

    You are woefully off when you call it as you see it. Try actually engaging in discourse. You may actually learn something.

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  • There is zero resemblance between Radical Republicans and Antifa.

    Antifa and BLM and other violent freaks of diversity promote special federal rights for special people.

    Radical Republicans DID NOT promote special federal rights for special people.

    Quite the opposite.

    Radical Republicans were very equality-of-rights minded in sharp contrast with Antifa.

    Radical Republicans of 1865 promoted true equality in terms of federal voting rights for all US citizens and total abolition of chattel slavery in the US.

    Radical Republicans enacted the 14th amendment which granted automatic US citizenship to practically all people in America including all ex-slaves, all state citizens. and all people born in the US.

    The 14th amendment also extended Bill of Rights enumerated immunities and privileges to the state governments.

    Antifa bigots not only promote special rights for special people, Antifa demonize and physically attack a small minority of US citizens that they hate and wish to disenfranchise, silence and destroy.

    Antifa bigots are closer to being a modern day Klan rather than to being Radical Republicans.

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  • @woodNfish
    Agreed. Lincoln was a war mongering butcher. He didn't free any slaves and almost everything today's propaganda filled Americans know about him is a lie.

    You know, I have a vague feeling that we’ll never receive the Lincoln Court Historians Seal of Approval!

    Piss on Lincoln. I shake the hand that pulled the trigger.

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  • @Corvinus
    It's the only schtick you have. Sad, really sad.

    I just call them like I see them.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    You are woefully off when you call it as you see it. Try actually engaging in discourse. You may actually learn something.
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  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    Cuck.

    It’s the only schtick you have. Sad, really sad.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    I just call them like I see them.
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  • @Logan
    Germany did have antifa. They were the paramilitary wings of the Social Democrats and Communists. The SA and SS were originally founded to defend Nazi Party events from their attacks. For much of the Weimar Republic the police collaborated with these groups against the Nazis in many cities, notably Berlin.

    Interestingly, a great many of these opposition thugs moved into the SA and SS without breaking stride.

    Yes, that’s very interesting.

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  • @Logan
    True enough. But it seems that if you're going to justify secession and war as a defense of states' rights, you ought to at least state which rights were being defended.

    It’s bad enough you’re a cuck, must you also be boring?

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  • @Ivy Mike
    And when the Radical Republican repression of Southern Whites ended those Southern Whites immediately set about disenfranchising blacks and returning them to a condition almost as bad as servitude but with the advantage that blacks now had to pay rent and buy their own food. Anybody trying to feed you a meal of ' Old South be good' is either ignorant or a racist. If Germany had had Antifa Hitler would probably have been clubbed down like a baby seal before he started on his way to # 3 on the mass murdering dictator charts.

    Germany did have antifa. They were the paramilitary wings of the Social Democrats and Communists. The SA and SS were originally founded to defend Nazi Party events from their attacks. For much of the Weimar Republic the police collaborated with these groups against the Nazis in many cities, notably Berlin.

    Interestingly, a great many of these opposition thugs moved into the SA and SS without breaking stride.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Yes, that's very interesting.
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  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    No one cares.

    True enough. But it seems that if you’re going to justify secession and war as a defense of states’ rights, you ought to at least state which rights were being defended.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    It's bad enough you're a cuck, must you also be boring?
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  • "Some crazy person just compared President Abraham Lincoln to Hitler. Yes, this just happened on CNN and Brooke Baldwin's reaction was perfect." So scribbled one Ricky Davila on Social Media (Twitter). Indeed, an elderly Southern gentleman had ventured that President Lincoln, not General Lee, murdered civilians, a point even a Court historian and a Lincoln...
  • @Rosamond Vincy
    How many specific texts do you need to see? The idea of German blood being sacred is pervasive in their writing. If you won't believe what the Nazis said about themselves, what will you believe?

    provide a link Rosamond, or withdraw the claim as unsupported.

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  • "Anybody who would trash Lee and laud Lincoln is either stupid as a post or just plain evil," said a sage reader. This applies in spades to anyone who would laud the Radical Republicans of 1865, as one TV GOP blonde has recently, and asininely, done. The Radical Republicans, if you can believe it, considered...
  • And when the Radical Republican repression of Southern Whites ended those Southern Whites immediately set about disenfranchising blacks and returning them to a condition almost as bad as servitude but with the advantage that blacks now had to pay rent and buy their own food. Anybody trying to feed you a meal of ‘ Old South be good’ is either ignorant or a racist. If Germany had had Antifa Hitler would probably have been clubbed down like a baby seal before he started on his way to # 3 on the mass murdering dictator charts.

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    • Replies: @Logan
    Germany did have antifa. They were the paramilitary wings of the Social Democrats and Communists. The SA and SS were originally founded to defend Nazi Party events from their attacks. For much of the Weimar Republic the police collaborated with these groups against the Nazis in many cities, notably Berlin.

    Interestingly, a great many of these opposition thugs moved into the SA and SS without breaking stride.
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  • @Logan
    I've often asked apologists for secession which rights of the southern states were being infringed. Never have gotten a straight answer.

    No one cares.

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    • Replies: @Logan
    True enough. But it seems that if you're going to justify secession and war as a defense of states' rights, you ought to at least state which rights were being defended.
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  • @Orville H. Larson
    Lincoln, Sherman, and Grant were degenerate war criminals. The only thing I've got against John Wilkes Booth is that he was four years too late.

    Lincoln, Sherman, and Grant were degenerate war criminals.

    As were FDR, Truman, and Curtis LeMay. All of whom got plentiful support from Dixie. Every Confederate state gave electors to at least two of those three.

    At least LeMay was man enough to admit it.

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  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    States don't literally have rights, of course, but "States' Rights" is just a short-hand for federalism and strictly limited central government, no?

    I’ve often asked apologists for secession which rights of the southern states were being infringed. Never have gotten a straight answer.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    No one cares.
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  • @The Alarmist

    "It took a while, but eventually the population increased enough that ‘free’ labor became cheaper than slave labor, and THEN slavery started to go away."
     
    Wow, that is a highly distorted view of the history of Rome and Europe and slavery:

    The oligarch class of Rome did such an effective job of reducing freemen to penury while cranking up the debts of the state to themselves, much like we see in the modern western world, that they figuratively tied labor by law to the land on which it resided and worked so that it could not escape the work that was needed to be done to keep the oligarchs in the style to which they had become accustomed. It's not that slavery went away, rather the whole society was essentially reduced to slavery.

    This is what formed the basis for serfdom and the whole structure of feudal Europe in the Middle Ages. It was not until the Black Plague killed off enough serfs that the surviving serfs could literally walk away and bid their labor out to the highest bidder and thereby throw off the shackles of serfdom.

    This led to a resurgence of slavery to source the labor to do the dirty shit work freemen wouldn't do at the bid offered.

    Not a bad summation. But would like to point out that the direct line of descent from the coloni of the late empire to the serfs of the Middle Ages is a pretty contentious point. It appears that over most of western Europe most farmers were freemen up through the collapse of the Carolingian Empire, with the associated intramural fighting and massive raiding by Saracens, Magyars and Vikings.

    There were of course slaves around, and it is probable slavery as such diminished as serfdom grew. It was probably mostly a local ad hoc way for local farmers to trade submission to the local head of the Brute Squad in return for protection.

    The colonus probably provided much of the legal precedent for the status, though.

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  • @Reg Cæsar

    Unlike the current Dems, 1861 Democrats were the party of states’ rights.
     
    The idea of states having rights, rather than people, makes me nervous. States all over the world exercised such "rights" throughout the 20th century, and we saw what happened.


    Not unlike today’s Republicans and Democrats, the Radical Republicans of yore had sidelined a large segment of the white population in the South.
     
    As did the planters themselves, by importing boatloads of Africans to do the jobs (white) Americans wouldn't do.

    If the French Reign of Terror was led by the terrifying Robespierre and his Jacobins; its American equivalent was infused with the spirit of lunatics like John Brown.
     
    Wait, didn't Adams and New Englanders oppose the French Revolution, while Virginians such as Jefferson praise it? I'm getting whiplash here.

    His abolitionist activists snatched five pro-slavery settlers near Pottawatomie Creek, in 1856, and split the captives’ skulls with broadswords...
     
    Those decapitated settlers were the Catholic Charities and Lutheran Social Services of the day, fighting for the importation of Africans into territories they never would have reached by themselves, or ever would have thought of or wanted to reach.

    Just about everyone on this forum, save Tiny Duck , Corvinus, and Truth, wouldn't shed a tear should a broadsword split a CC or LSS resettlement bureaucrat's cranium. So why should we care about the race traitors of 150 years ago?

    Yes, Brown was a criminal, but, as is so often the case today, good riddance to his victims as well.


    Thaddeus Stevens was another of their “inspirational” madmen, lauded in the annals of the Party of Reconstruction.
     
    Yeah, but Alexander Stephens was just as radical, if not more, than his homophonic northern [sic] counterpart:

    The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization.

    The only "proper status of the negro in our form of civilisation" is absent.

    Rather than obsessing about the differences between Lincoln and the Confederates, why not appreciate the fundamental thing they had in common-- both were fighting to ensure that their country would be blacker than it would had they done nothing.

    In other words, both were race perverts.

    “His abolitionist activists snatched five pro-slavery settlers near Pottawatomie Creek, in 1856, and split the captives’ skulls with broadswords…”

    A classic example of a true but incomplete story. This was an incident in tit-for-tat violence in Bleeding Kansas. Lots of people were killed by both sides. Brown just took the conflict, as was his nature, to its logical conclusion. Something common to fanatics.

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  • @Curle
    The Union was a voluntary association of states. The Territories belonged to the states collectively not to the national government. If a northern state imagined itself aggrieved by a collective decision by the states as to the management of the Territories they could have easily salved their conscious by seceding; the remedy contemplated by the constitution. Instead the aggrieved North decided to wage war.

    Trying to steal several bases here, are we?

    The Union was not a voluntary association of states. It was formed by “we the People of the United States,” not by the states as such.

    The territories had never been considered to belong to the states, which had absolutely nothing to do with their management or control. As with the Union itself, they belonged to the People of the United States, not to the states themselves.

    There is nothing whatever in the Constitution that can be considered as “contemplating secession.” To be fair, not explicitly prohibiting it either.

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  • @TG
    "Did not the ignoble institution of slavery dissolve relatively uneventfully in most slave societies, around that time? Indeed, it did. Alone in all nations did the U.S. and Haiti share the dubious distinction of shedding blood, where other options presented themselves."

    I'd like to comment on just this one issue. Slavery generally only exists when the natural value of labor is high. In the sparsely populated ante-bellum American South, a market economy would favor workers over landowners, and make plantation-style living difficult - the place would go more towards the owner-operator system of the midwest. So the Southern plantation owners needed slavery to keep their lifestyle, and would not have let it slip away.

    In other lands where slavery died out, that was not typically due to any generosity of spirit - but because population densities had increased enough (RELATIVE to developed resources and industrial capital) that the balance of supply and demand favored landowners over workers, and slavery was no longer necessary. There is no slave owner more brutal than the law of supply and demand, as the impoverished 'free' workers of modern Bangladesh know all too well...

    Ancient Rome kept a slave economy going for centuries, because they needed it. It took a while, but eventually the population increased enough that 'free' labor became cheaper than slave labor, and THEN slavery started to go away.

    Bottom line: There is no way that the sparsely populated ante-bellum South would have let slavery slip away for at least generations.

    “It took a while, but eventually the population increased enough that ‘free’ labor became cheaper than slave labor, and THEN slavery started to go away.”

    Wow, that is a highly distorted view of the history of Rome and Europe and slavery:

    The oligarch class of Rome did such an effective job of reducing freemen to penury while cranking up the debts of the state to themselves, much like we see in the modern western world, that they figuratively tied labor by law to the land on which it resided and worked so that it could not escape the work that was needed to be done to keep the oligarchs in the style to which they had become accustomed. It’s not that slavery went away, rather the whole society was essentially reduced to slavery.

    This is what formed the basis for serfdom and the whole structure of feudal Europe in the Middle Ages. It was not until the Black Plague killed off enough serfs that the surviving serfs could literally walk away and bid their labor out to the highest bidder and thereby throw off the shackles of serfdom.

    This led to a resurgence of slavery to source the labor to do the dirty shit work freemen wouldn’t do at the bid offered.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Logan
    Not a bad summation. But would like to point out that the direct line of descent from the coloni of the late empire to the serfs of the Middle Ages is a pretty contentious point. It appears that over most of western Europe most farmers were freemen up through the collapse of the Carolingian Empire, with the associated intramural fighting and massive raiding by Saracens, Magyars and Vikings.

    There were of course slaves around, and it is probable slavery as such diminished as serfdom grew. It was probably mostly a local ad hoc way for local farmers to trade submission to the local head of the Brute Squad in return for protection.

    The colonus probably provided much of the legal precedent for the status, though.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Clark Westwood

    John Wilkes Booth, the dumbest assassin in history.
     
    The predecessor of today's Hollywood idiots who think they're somehow entitled to play leading roles in world events.

    Booth was probably some patsy fall guy for the illuminati cabal that wanted to punish the South and could only do so over the dead body of Lincoln. The Kathy Griffin of his day.

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  • @Reg Cæsar

    Unlike the current Dems, 1861 Democrats were the party of states’ rights.
     
    The idea of states having rights, rather than people, makes me nervous. States all over the world exercised such "rights" throughout the 20th century, and we saw what happened.


    Not unlike today’s Republicans and Democrats, the Radical Republicans of yore had sidelined a large segment of the white population in the South.
     
    As did the planters themselves, by importing boatloads of Africans to do the jobs (white) Americans wouldn't do.

    If the French Reign of Terror was led by the terrifying Robespierre and his Jacobins; its American equivalent was infused with the spirit of lunatics like John Brown.
     
    Wait, didn't Adams and New Englanders oppose the French Revolution, while Virginians such as Jefferson praise it? I'm getting whiplash here.

    His abolitionist activists snatched five pro-slavery settlers near Pottawatomie Creek, in 1856, and split the captives’ skulls with broadswords...
     
    Those decapitated settlers were the Catholic Charities and Lutheran Social Services of the day, fighting for the importation of Africans into territories they never would have reached by themselves, or ever would have thought of or wanted to reach.

    Just about everyone on this forum, save Tiny Duck , Corvinus, and Truth, wouldn't shed a tear should a broadsword split a CC or LSS resettlement bureaucrat's cranium. So why should we care about the race traitors of 150 years ago?

    Yes, Brown was a criminal, but, as is so often the case today, good riddance to his victims as well.


    Thaddeus Stevens was another of their “inspirational” madmen, lauded in the annals of the Party of Reconstruction.
     
    Yeah, but Alexander Stephens was just as radical, if not more, than his homophonic northern [sic] counterpart:

    The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization.

    The only "proper status of the negro in our form of civilisation" is absent.

    Rather than obsessing about the differences between Lincoln and the Confederates, why not appreciate the fundamental thing they had in common-- both were fighting to ensure that their country would be blacker than it would had they done nothing.

    In other words, both were race perverts.

    States don’t literally have rights, of course, but “States’ Rights” is just a short-hand for federalism and strictly limited central government, no?

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    • Replies: @Logan
    I've often asked apologists for secession which rights of the southern states were being infringed. Never have gotten a straight answer.
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  • @wayfarer
    " Civil War Conspiracy - Rothschilds Funded Both Sides From Europe - North Had Just As Many Slaves Too."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PAqjcjZCUE

    These fake Jew Rothschild’s are behind every modern war. Every banker scam, every nation subversion.
    Why are they still alive?
    US Special Forces could take them all out in one day and the lower bag men like Soros would dry up and blow away into the night.

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  • @Scooter1
    I think the real reign of terror was what blacks had to endure in the south before the civil war. A bunch of aristocratic plantation owners who got rich stealing the labor of others should have been killed, not pardoned and reinstated to society, and former slaves and poor whites should have been given the plantations instead. John Brown was a hero. If someone is willing to steal and control the life of another person just to make money, why shouldn't they be put down like the greedy uncivilized dog that they are?

    Stalin and Mao could not have said it better.

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  • @Curle
    Reading your comment I gather you didn't read the article?

    I’ve read many of her columns. I posted a historical fact about her and her father. It doesn’t matter what she writes. It’s what she did and will do that counts.

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  • “Proof Confederates Didn’t Fight for Slavery”

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  • Unlike the current Dems, 1861 Democrats were the party of states’ rights.

    The idea of states having rights, rather than people, makes me nervous. States all over the world exercised such “rights” throughout the 20th century, and we saw what happened.

    Not unlike today’s Republicans and Democrats, the Radical Republicans of yore had sidelined a large segment of the white population in the South.

    As did the planters themselves, by importing boatloads of Africans to do the jobs (white) Americans wouldn’t do.

    If the French Reign of Terror was led by the terrifying Robespierre and his Jacobins; its American equivalent was infused with the spirit of lunatics like John Brown.

    Wait, didn’t Adams and New Englanders oppose the French Revolution, while Virginians such as Jefferson praise it? I’m getting whiplash here.

    His abolitionist activists snatched five pro-slavery settlers near Pottawatomie Creek, in 1856, and split the captives’ skulls with broadswords…

    Those decapitated settlers were the Catholic Charities and Lutheran Social Services of the day, fighting for the importation of Africans into territories they never would have reached by themselves, or ever would have thought of or wanted to reach.

    Just about everyone on this forum, save Tiny Duck , Corvinus, and Truth, wouldn’t shed a tear should a broadsword split a CC or LSS resettlement bureaucrat’s cranium. So why should we care about the race traitors of 150 years ago?

    Yes, Brown was a criminal, but, as is so often the case today, good riddance to his victims as well.

    Thaddeus Stevens was another of their “inspirational” madmen, lauded in the annals of the Party of Reconstruction.

    Yeah, but Alexander Stephens was just as radical, if not more, than his homophonic northern [sic] counterpart:

    The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization.

    The only “proper status of the negro in our form of civilisation” is absent.

    Rather than obsessing about the differences between Lincoln and the Confederates, why not appreciate the fundamental thing they had in common– both were fighting to ensure that their country would be blacker than it would had they done nothing.

    In other words, both were race perverts.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    States don't literally have rights, of course, but "States' Rights" is just a short-hand for federalism and strictly limited central government, no?
    , @Logan
    "His abolitionist activists snatched five pro-slavery settlers near Pottawatomie Creek, in 1856, and split the captives’ skulls with broadswords…"

    A classic example of a true but incomplete story. This was an incident in tit-for-tat violence in Bleeding Kansas. Lots of people were killed by both sides. Brown just took the conflict, as was his nature, to its logical conclusion. Something common to fanatics.
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  • TAX REVOLT of 1861, aka ‘THE CIVIL WAR’

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  • @Logan
    Quite right.

    The issue that split the Democratic Party and ensured the election of Lincoln was a demand by southerners that slavery be imposed on every territory by a federal slave code enforced by federal troops. For northern Democrats this was a bridge too far, and they refused.

    The South then seceded from the Party and soon after from the Union.

    Lincoln and many other northerners believed there was something like a conspiracy to impose slavery inside even free states. The principles outlined in Dred Scott wouldn't have need to be expanded much to accomplish this.

    The Union was a voluntary association of states. The Territories belonged to the states collectively not to the national government. If a northern state imagined itself aggrieved by a collective decision by the states as to the management of the Territories they could have easily salved their conscious by seceding; the remedy contemplated by the constitution. Instead the aggrieved North decided to wage war.

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    • Replies: @Logan
    Trying to steal several bases here, are we?

    The Union was not a voluntary association of states. It was formed by "we the People of the United States," not by the states as such.

    The territories had never been considered to belong to the states, which had absolutely nothing to do with their management or control. As with the Union itself, they belonged to the People of the United States, not to the states themselves.

    There is nothing whatever in the Constitution that can be considered as "contemplating secession." To be fair, not explicitly prohibiting it either.

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  • @attilathehen
    (((Illana Mercer))) is doing her usual "conservative-libertarian schtick" routine. She and her rabbi father were kicked out of South Africa for their anti-apartheid work. http://www.ilanamercer.com/biographical. She's a negrophiliac.

    Reading your comment I gather you didn’t read the article?

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    • Replies: @attilathehen
    I've read many of her columns. I posted a historical fact about her and her father. It doesn't matter what she writes. It's what she did and will do that counts.
    , @Ace
    So what's your objection to her article other than your ad hominem nonsense?
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  • @TG
    "Did not the ignoble institution of slavery dissolve relatively uneventfully in most slave societies, around that time? Indeed, it did. Alone in all nations did the U.S. and Haiti share the dubious distinction of shedding blood, where other options presented themselves."

    I'd like to comment on just this one issue. Slavery generally only exists when the natural value of labor is high. In the sparsely populated ante-bellum American South, a market economy would favor workers over landowners, and make plantation-style living difficult - the place would go more towards the owner-operator system of the midwest. So the Southern plantation owners needed slavery to keep their lifestyle, and would not have let it slip away.

    In other lands where slavery died out, that was not typically due to any generosity of spirit - but because population densities had increased enough (RELATIVE to developed resources and industrial capital) that the balance of supply and demand favored landowners over workers, and slavery was no longer necessary. There is no slave owner more brutal than the law of supply and demand, as the impoverished 'free' workers of modern Bangladesh know all too well...

    Ancient Rome kept a slave economy going for centuries, because they needed it. It took a while, but eventually the population increased enough that 'free' labor became cheaper than slave labor, and THEN slavery started to go away.

    Bottom line: There is no way that the sparsely populated ante-bellum South would have let slavery slip away for at least generations.

    RE Rome, no. There is no way the population actually increased in the early Dark Ages to beyond the maximum Imperial level. Other circumstances were at issue.

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  • @Jake
    Once again, Ilana Mercer nails it - and the 'it' is something extremely important.

    (((Illana Mercer))) is doing her usual “conservative-libertarian schtick” routine. She and her rabbi father were kicked out of South Africa for their anti-apartheid work. http://www.ilanamercer.com/biographical. She’s a negrophiliac.

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    • Replies: @Curle
    Reading your comment I gather you didn't read the article?
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  • @Corvinus
    "Yet instead of issuing a retraction and an apology (to Adolf not to Lincoln; the latter really was a mass-murdering tyrant)."

    Actually, for this insanely absurd comment, it is YOU who ought to be giving your sincerest "I am sorry".

    "From first to last, every item in this pattern of atrocious scholarship—the bogus sources, the emotional manipulation, the personal agenda, the blithe refusal to even acknowledge much less atone for exposed error—is quite typical of female “intellectuals” throughout academia and the media."

    No, it is typical of radical intellectuals regardless of gender.

    "And lest anyone in his moment of weakness was tempted to take the female mind seriously..."

    No wonder why you remain single.

    "I still hold to the quaint belief that scholarship should be the realm of actual scholars, not of emotion-driven harridans."

    Then hold yourself accountable to your own standards.

    Exposed error, please.

    No war that claims to be based in legal right can be pursued without reference to that right and yet we had a war fought on the basis of home architecture poetics.

    All rights not otherwise gained through possession of guns is either present or not in the constitution. When looking for the proper interpretation of any legal record look first to the language of the document and secondly at contemporaneous records to see what was said at the time. Whereas the ground is littered with direct and indirect contemporaneous references to the loss of the unitary government position at the constitutional convention, not the least being Madison’s direct report of the loss as well as acknowledgment of the secession right in state ratification ordinances not to mention Jefferson’s many letters assuming existence secession, there is no contemporaneous record of the unitary proponents succeeding. The complete and total absence of a written record supporting one’s preferred view of history is penultimate proof that the preferred view is wrong

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  • “Did not the ignoble institution of slavery dissolve relatively uneventfully in most slave societies, around that time? Indeed, it did. Alone in all nations did the U.S. and Haiti share the dubious distinction of shedding blood, where other options presented themselves.”

    I’d like to comment on just this one issue. Slavery generally only exists when the natural value of labor is high. In the sparsely populated ante-bellum American South, a market economy would favor workers over landowners, and make plantation-style living difficult – the place would go more towards the owner-operator system of the midwest. So the Southern plantation owners needed slavery to keep their lifestyle, and would not have let it slip away.

    In other lands where slavery died out, that was not typically due to any generosity of spirit – but because population densities had increased enough (RELATIVE to developed resources and industrial capital) that the balance of supply and demand favored landowners over workers, and slavery was no longer necessary. There is no slave owner more brutal than the law of supply and demand, as the impoverished ‘free’ workers of modern Bangladesh know all too well…

    Ancient Rome kept a slave economy going for centuries, because they needed it. It took a while, but eventually the population increased enough that ‘free’ labor became cheaper than slave labor, and THEN slavery started to go away.

    Bottom line: There is no way that the sparsely populated ante-bellum South would have let slavery slip away for at least generations.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    RE Rome, no. There is no way the population actually increased in the early Dark Ages to beyond the maximum Imperial level. Other circumstances were at issue.
    , @The Alarmist

    "It took a while, but eventually the population increased enough that ‘free’ labor became cheaper than slave labor, and THEN slavery started to go away."
     
    Wow, that is a highly distorted view of the history of Rome and Europe and slavery:

    The oligarch class of Rome did such an effective job of reducing freemen to penury while cranking up the debts of the state to themselves, much like we see in the modern western world, that they figuratively tied labor by law to the land on which it resided and worked so that it could not escape the work that was needed to be done to keep the oligarchs in the style to which they had become accustomed. It's not that slavery went away, rather the whole society was essentially reduced to slavery.

    This is what formed the basis for serfdom and the whole structure of feudal Europe in the Middle Ages. It was not until the Black Plague killed off enough serfs that the surviving serfs could literally walk away and bid their labor out to the highest bidder and thereby throw off the shackles of serfdom.

    This led to a resurgence of slavery to source the labor to do the dirty shit work freemen wouldn't do at the bid offered.

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  • The five or six Kansans Brown slaughtered were actually ANTI-slavery. Brown was upset that the locals hadn’t done enough to defeat the pro-slavers entering the state.

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  • The worst Radical Republican was better than the best Antifa.

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  • @Corvinus
    "Yet instead of issuing a retraction and an apology (to Adolf not to Lincoln; the latter really was a mass-murdering tyrant)."

    Actually, for this insanely absurd comment, it is YOU who ought to be giving your sincerest "I am sorry".

    "From first to last, every item in this pattern of atrocious scholarship—the bogus sources, the emotional manipulation, the personal agenda, the blithe refusal to even acknowledge much less atone for exposed error—is quite typical of female “intellectuals” throughout academia and the media."

    No, it is typical of radical intellectuals regardless of gender.

    "And lest anyone in his moment of weakness was tempted to take the female mind seriously..."

    No wonder why you remain single.

    "I still hold to the quaint belief that scholarship should be the realm of actual scholars, not of emotion-driven harridans."

    Then hold yourself accountable to your own standards.

    Cuck.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    It's the only schtick you have. Sad, really sad.
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  • anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Logan
    Guess which Civil War soldier lost the highest proportion of his men to combat death?

    Lee, not Grant.

    Grant's reputation as a butcher seems to be based on the Overland Campaign, where he often attacked frontally for lack of alternatives. Sea on one side, mountains on the other of a relatively narrow front, with a highly competent enemy it was difficult to deceive.

    Grants earlier campaigns in the West, where he had more room to maneuver show a tendency to outmaneuver the enemy rather than attack headon.

    Guess which Civil War soldier lost the highest proportion of his men to combat death?

    Lee, not Grant.

    proportion, yes. But in real numbers, no. Like the Russians in WWII, Grant could spend bodies wantonly.

    Lee had far smaller resources to draw upon —

    from Correspondence between Robert E Lee and David Lord Acton:

    http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/08/acton-lee-conversation-liberty.html

    In regard to your inquiry as to my being engaged in preparing a narrative of the campaigns in Virginia, I regret to state that I progress slowly in the collection of the necessary documents for its completion. I particularly feel the loss of the official returns showing the small numbers with which the battles were fought.

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  • @Logan
    Guess which Civil War soldier lost the highest proportion of his men to combat death?

    Lee, not Grant.

    Grant's reputation as a butcher seems to be based on the Overland Campaign, where he often attacked frontally for lack of alternatives. Sea on one side, mountains on the other of a relatively narrow front, with a highly competent enemy it was difficult to deceive.

    Grants earlier campaigns in the West, where he had more room to maneuver show a tendency to outmaneuver the enemy rather than attack headon.

    Grant had vastly more soldiers to suffer attrition with. Are you familiar with Lanchester’s Square Law?

    I agree that e.g. the Vicksburg campaign was a campaign of maneuver. I don’t know about “highest”– do you mean “higher”? And I assume you’re talking about the Overland campaign?

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  • @Orville H. Larson
    Lincoln, Sherman, and Grant were degenerate war criminals. The only thing I've got against John Wilkes Booth is that he was four years too late.

    Agreed. Lincoln was a war mongering butcher. He didn’t free any slaves and almost everything today’s propaganda filled Americans know about him is a lie.

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    • Replies: @Orville H. Larson
    You know, I have a vague feeling that we'll never receive the Lincoln Court Historians Seal of Approval!

    Piss on Lincoln. I shake the hand that pulled the trigger.
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  • @mercer
    "Unlike the current Dems, 1861 Democrats were the party of states’ rights."

    Anyone familiar with the Fugitive Slave Act knows this is not an accurate description of antebellum Southern Dems.

    Quite right.

    The issue that split the Democratic Party and ensured the election of Lincoln was a demand by southerners that slavery be imposed on every territory by a federal slave code enforced by federal troops. For northern Democrats this was a bridge too far, and they refused.

    The South then seceded from the Party and soon after from the Union.

    Lincoln and many other northerners believed there was something like a conspiracy to impose slavery inside even free states. The principles outlined in Dred Scott wouldn’t have need to be expanded much to accomplish this.

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    • Replies: @Curle
    The Union was a voluntary association of states. The Territories belonged to the states collectively not to the national government. If a northern state imagined itself aggrieved by a collective decision by the states as to the management of the Territories they could have easily salved their conscious by seceding; the remedy contemplated by the constitution. Instead the aggrieved North decided to wage war.
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  • @Scooter1
    I think the real reign of terror was what blacks had to endure in the south before the civil war. A bunch of aristocratic plantation owners who got rich stealing the labor of others should have been killed, not pardoned and reinstated to society, and former slaves and poor whites should have been given the plantations instead. John Brown was a hero. If someone is willing to steal and control the life of another person just to make money, why shouldn't they be put down like the greedy uncivilized dog that they are?

    If a 21st century white American and his family were captured and enslaved, would he be morally justified to use violence to attempt to free his family? Of course he would.

    So why would a 19th century black American not be equally justified in doing the same thing?

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    • Replies: @Ace
    That's irrelevant. The issue was, given that a horrible crime had been committed in bringing African slaves to America, what was the most decent and speedy way of returning them to Africa so that America would not have to deal with bitter, eternal hatred on the part of the majority of Africans and the absolute impossibility of ever living with them in harmony under any circumstance?
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  • @Intelligent Dasein
    Ilana Mercer begins this column with a quote from the comments of her previous column. Since it is now evident that she actually read those comments, she would be in a position to know that several of us pointed out how utterly devoid of substance was her claim that Adolf Hitler admired and emulated Abraham Lincoln, and that the primary sources she cited in support of that claim in fact provide no evidence for it whatsoever. Yet instead of issuing a retraction and an apology (to Adolf not to Lincoln; the latter really was a mass-murdering tyrant), in the present column she simply forges ahead with her agenda of whipping up Americans' easily triggered emotions vis-a-vis the Civil War and twisting them to support her kooky libertarian philosophy.

    From first to last, every item in this pattern of atrocious scholarship---the bogus sources, the emotional manipulation, the personal agenda, the blithe refusal to even acknowledge much less atone for exposed error---is quite typical of female "intellectuals" throughout academia and the media. And lest anyone in his moment of weakness was tempted to take the female mind seriously, Ilana herself has provided the antidote in her opening paragraph by introducing an element of cat-fight, explicitly referring to the unforgivable blondness of her enemy!

    It's important to keep this all in mind whenever some woman tries to lecture us about what to feel and believe. I am not being too harsh; I don't take kindly to being lied to. I still hold to the quaint belief that scholarship should be the realm of actual scholars, not of emotion-driven harridans. It's time to stop listening to all of them, no matter what side of the media wars they play for.

    The problem is with her scholarship and honesty, not her sex.

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  • @Chris Mallory
    "Drunken butcher" would be a better way to describe Grant.

    Guess which Civil War soldier lost the highest proportion of his men to combat death?

    Lee, not Grant.

    Grant’s reputation as a butcher seems to be based on the Overland Campaign, where he often attacked frontally for lack of alternatives. Sea on one side, mountains on the other of a relatively narrow front, with a highly competent enemy it was difficult to deceive.

    Grants earlier campaigns in the West, where he had more room to maneuver show a tendency to outmaneuver the enemy rather than attack headon.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Grant had vastly more soldiers to suffer attrition with. Are you familiar with Lanchester's Square Law?

    I agree that e.g. the Vicksburg campaign was a campaign of maneuver. I don't know about "highest"-- do you mean "higher"? And I assume you're talking about the Overland campaign?
    , @anonymous

    Guess which Civil War soldier lost the highest proportion of his men to combat death?

    Lee, not Grant.
     
    proportion, yes. But in real numbers, no. Like the Russians in WWII, Grant could spend bodies wantonly.

    Lee had far smaller resources to draw upon --

    from Correspondence between Robert E Lee and David Lord Acton:
    http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/08/acton-lee-conversation-liberty.html

    In regard to your inquiry as to my being engaged in preparing a narrative of the campaigns in Virginia, I regret to state that I progress slowly in the collection of the necessary documents for its completion. I particularly feel the loss of the official returns showing the small numbers with which the battles were fought.
     
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  • @Michael Kenny
    Something that always intrigues me as a European is why Americans spend so much time raking over old coals instead of solving today's problems and looking to the future.

    Given how anti-democratic and destructive of underlying societal values that prevailed for centuries in individual European nations the EU is, I’m surprised so many Europeans cling to the fantasy that there is a need for the EU. Seems they think it will help avoid re-living unpleasant aspects of their history.

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  • “Unlike the current Dems, 1861 Democrats were the party of states’ rights.”

    Anyone familiar with the Fugitive Slave Act knows this is not an accurate description of antebellum Southern Dems.

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    • Replies: @Logan
    Quite right.

    The issue that split the Democratic Party and ensured the election of Lincoln was a demand by southerners that slavery be imposed on every territory by a federal slave code enforced by federal troops. For northern Democrats this was a bridge too far, and they refused.

    The South then seceded from the Party and soon after from the Union.

    Lincoln and many other northerners believed there was something like a conspiracy to impose slavery inside even free states. The principles outlined in Dred Scott wouldn't have need to be expanded much to accomplish this.

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  • Abraham Lincoln decided not to borrow money from the bankers nor to create interest bearing money by creating a national bank that would loan the government the needed money by printing large quantities of paper money. Lincoln issued the “Greenback” in February, 1862.

    This money was not only unbacked by gold, but was debt free. Lincoln was playing a deadly game. He had crossed the international bankers. The war was being fought to force the United States into a position of having to create a national bank, run independently by the European bankers, and Lincoln had turned his back on them by issuing his own Fiat Money.

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  • @Pandos
    John Wilkes Booth, the dumbest assassin in history. Kill Lincoln at the beginning to win, not after the loss when he was sending them all home.

    John Wilkes Booth, the dumbest assassin in history.

    The predecessor of today’s Hollywood idiots who think they’re somehow entitled to play leading roles in world events.

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    Booth was probably some patsy fall guy for the illuminati cabal that wanted to punish the South and could only do so over the dead body of Lincoln. The Kathy Griffin of his day.
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  • @Binyamin
    The Jewish Ilana Mercer acknowledges approvingly 'Dr' Boyd D. Cathey, a holocaust denier- Cathey had a close association in the past with a holocaust denying organisation. Wow! No wonder even fringe on-line publications keep firing her. Trump can do at least some good during his miserable (and hopefully short) presidency by deporting all foreign born extremists and hate preachers. Perhaps he is deporting the wrong people?

    Her father worked against apartheid and now she preaches how awful South Africa is now. I don’t understand why anyone still publishes her dreck.

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    • Replies: @Ace
    So you're saying that S. Africa isn't awful?
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  • @Intelligent Dasein
    Ilana Mercer begins this column with a quote from the comments of her previous column. Since it is now evident that she actually read those comments, she would be in a position to know that several of us pointed out how utterly devoid of substance was her claim that Adolf Hitler admired and emulated Abraham Lincoln, and that the primary sources she cited in support of that claim in fact provide no evidence for it whatsoever. Yet instead of issuing a retraction and an apology (to Adolf not to Lincoln; the latter really was a mass-murdering tyrant), in the present column she simply forges ahead with her agenda of whipping up Americans' easily triggered emotions vis-a-vis the Civil War and twisting them to support her kooky libertarian philosophy.

    From first to last, every item in this pattern of atrocious scholarship---the bogus sources, the emotional manipulation, the personal agenda, the blithe refusal to even acknowledge much less atone for exposed error---is quite typical of female "intellectuals" throughout academia and the media. And lest anyone in his moment of weakness was tempted to take the female mind seriously, Ilana herself has provided the antidote in her opening paragraph by introducing an element of cat-fight, explicitly referring to the unforgivable blondness of her enemy!

    It's important to keep this all in mind whenever some woman tries to lecture us about what to feel and believe. I am not being too harsh; I don't take kindly to being lied to. I still hold to the quaint belief that scholarship should be the realm of actual scholars, not of emotion-driven harridans. It's time to stop listening to all of them, no matter what side of the media wars they play for.

    “Yet instead of issuing a retraction and an apology (to Adolf not to Lincoln; the latter really was a mass-murdering tyrant).”

    Actually, for this insanely absurd comment, it is YOU who ought to be giving your sincerest “I am sorry”.

    “From first to last, every item in this pattern of atrocious scholarship—the bogus sources, the emotional manipulation, the personal agenda, the blithe refusal to even acknowledge much less atone for exposed error—is quite typical of female “intellectuals” throughout academia and the media.”

    No, it is typical of radical intellectuals regardless of gender.

    “And lest anyone in his moment of weakness was tempted to take the female mind seriously…”

    No wonder why you remain single.

    “I still hold to the quaint belief that scholarship should be the realm of actual scholars, not of emotion-driven harridans.”

    Then hold yourself accountable to your own standards.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Cuck.
    , @Curle
    Exposed error, please.

    No war that claims to be based in legal right can be pursued without reference to that right and yet we had a war fought on the basis of home architecture poetics.

    All rights not otherwise gained through possession of guns is either present or not in the constitution. When looking for the proper interpretation of any legal record look first to the language of the document and secondly at contemporaneous records to see what was said at the time. Whereas the ground is littered with direct and indirect contemporaneous references to the loss of the unitary government position at the constitutional convention, not the least being Madison's direct report of the loss as well as acknowledgment of the secession right in state ratification ordinances not to mention Jefferson's many letters assuming existence secession, there is no contemporaneous record of the unitary proponents succeeding. The complete and total absence of a written record supporting one's preferred view of history is penultimate proof that the preferred view is wrong
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  • @Pandos
    John Wilkes Booth, the dumbest assassin in history. Kill Lincoln at the beginning to win, not after the loss when he was sending them all home.

    Lincoln, Sherman, and Grant were degenerate war criminals. The only thing I’ve got against John Wilkes Booth is that he was four years too late.

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    • Replies: @woodNfish
    Agreed. Lincoln was a war mongering butcher. He didn't free any slaves and almost everything today's propaganda filled Americans know about him is a lie.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Lincoln, Sherman, and Grant were degenerate war criminals.
     
    As were FDR, Truman, and Curtis LeMay. All of whom got plentiful support from Dixie. Every Confederate state gave electors to at least two of those three.

    At least LeMay was man enough to admit it.
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  • Not completely OT….

    Here’s something surprisingly chilling that Charles Darwin wrote about the U.S. in June 1861:

    Some few, and I am one of them, even wish to God, though at the loss of millions of lives, that the North would proclaim a crusade against slavery. In the long-run, a million horrid deaths would be amply repaid in the cause of humanity. (Emphasis added.)

    WTF, Charles?

    That’s from a letter by Darwin to Asa Gray, June 5, 1861. It’s quoted in Vol. 3 of James Ford Rhodes’s History of the United States.

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  • The Radical Republicans, if you can believe it, considered Abraham Lincoln a moderate (a bad thing, in their book).

    It always cracks me up how modern liberal historians (but I repeat myself), in their worship of Lincoln the “Great Emancipator” and standard-bearer of federal oppression of local governments, try to downplay/ignore/distract from Lincoln’s post-war plans for speedy re-admission of the Confederate states, restoration of civil rights to former “Rebs,” and gradual enfranchisement of blacks. Historians also want to ignore the fact that many Northern states opposed complete enfranchisement of blacks–states that had a lot fewer blacks to worry about than those in the South.

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    • Replies: @Ace
    How has that "complete enfranchisement" dealy worked out for us? Ms. Mercer can be instructive on how it worked out in S. Africa.
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  • In going against the Radical Republicans, the 17th president of the United States was the Trump of his time, up against the Rubio-McCain-Graham Radical Republicans.

    Also like Trump, Johnson had a deep state secretly working to undermine him (most notably Lincoln’s Secretary of War, Stanton).

    If you really want to rip off the Band-Aid with one quick motion, read The Tragic Era: The Revolution After Lincoln, by Claude Bowers. Bowers (1878-1958) was an old-fashioned Democrat politician who wrote several highly readable books on U.S. political history. Given that The Tragic Era was written in 1929, it is refreshingly free of PC BS.

    https://www.amazon.com/Tragic-Era-Revolution-After-Lincoln-ebook/dp/B004SGJ9KO/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1504800653&sr=1-2&keywords=the+tragic+era

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  • I think the real reign of terror was what blacks had to endure in the south before the civil war. A bunch of aristocratic plantation owners who got rich stealing the labor of others should have been killed, not pardoned and reinstated to society, and former slaves and poor whites should have been given the plantations instead. John Brown was a hero. If someone is willing to steal and control the life of another person just to make money, why shouldn’t they be put down like the greedy uncivilized dog that they are?

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    • Troll: Intelligent Dasein
    • Replies: @Logan
    If a 21st century white American and his family were captured and enslaved, would he be morally justified to use violence to attempt to free his family? Of course he would.

    So why would a 19th century black American not be equally justified in doing the same thing?

    , @Jake
    Stalin and Mao could not have said it better.
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  • I can never figure out this constant attempt by “conservatives” to associate the Democrats with slavery or the Republicans with emancipation. How many times are these idiots going to beat their heads against the wall?

    Get it through your thick head. BLACKS DON”T CARE!!. There is an official black pisition and that is vote Democrat. Thinking about issues and logic do not apply here. If you want to be seen as authentically black then do as you are supposed to.

    Confessed one freedman: “I can’t read, I can’t write. We go by the [Union League's] instructions. We don’t know nothing much.”

    Nothing has changed except the Union League is the Democratic Party. Maybe at one time it was the Republican Party but not anymore.

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    • Agree: Beefcake the Mighty, Ace
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  • @Michael Kenny
    Something that always intrigues me as a European is why Americans spend so much time raking over old coals instead of solving today's problems and looking to the future.

    At the recently fabricated Charlottesville Virginia cluster fu#k, what was there something like three confederate and two nazi flags? That’s about 0.0000015% of all the 326,625,791 people in the U.S. Furthermore there’s even evidence now that indicates these false-flag-bearers were nothing more than a bogus-bunch of frustrated minimum-wage c-list crisis-actors.

    Americans for the most part could give a rat’s ass about their history. It’s only when the self-serving alt-left social engineering “elite” intentionally try to rip open old wounds, that you begin to see Americans reacting to the dark parts of their bygone times.

    All people need to completely let go of the past, stop friggin’ worrying about the future, and begin living simply within each sacred god given present moment.

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  • Ilana Mercer begins this column with a quote from the comments of her previous column. Since it is now evident that she actually read those comments, she would be in a position to know that several of us pointed out how utterly devoid of substance was her claim that Adolf Hitler admired and emulated Abraham Lincoln, and that the primary sources she cited in support of that claim in fact provide no evidence for it whatsoever. Yet instead of issuing a retraction and an apology (to Adolf not to Lincoln; the latter really was a mass-murdering tyrant), in the present column she simply forges ahead with her agenda of whipping up Americans’ easily triggered emotions vis-a-vis the Civil War and twisting them to support her kooky libertarian philosophy.

    From first to last, every item in this pattern of atrocious scholarship—the bogus sources, the emotional manipulation, the personal agenda, the blithe refusal to even acknowledge much less atone for exposed error—is quite typical of female “intellectuals” throughout academia and the media. And lest anyone in his moment of weakness was tempted to take the female mind seriously, Ilana herself has provided the antidote in her opening paragraph by introducing an element of cat-fight, explicitly referring to the unforgivable blondness of her enemy!

    It’s important to keep this all in mind whenever some woman tries to lecture us about what to feel and believe. I am not being too harsh; I don’t take kindly to being lied to. I still hold to the quaint belief that scholarship should be the realm of actual scholars, not of emotion-driven harridans. It’s time to stop listening to all of them, no matter what side of the media wars they play for.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Yet instead of issuing a retraction and an apology (to Adolf not to Lincoln; the latter really was a mass-murdering tyrant)."

    Actually, for this insanely absurd comment, it is YOU who ought to be giving your sincerest "I am sorry".

    "From first to last, every item in this pattern of atrocious scholarship—the bogus sources, the emotional manipulation, the personal agenda, the blithe refusal to even acknowledge much less atone for exposed error—is quite typical of female “intellectuals” throughout academia and the media."

    No, it is typical of radical intellectuals regardless of gender.

    "And lest anyone in his moment of weakness was tempted to take the female mind seriously..."

    No wonder why you remain single.

    "I still hold to the quaint belief that scholarship should be the realm of actual scholars, not of emotion-driven harridans."

    Then hold yourself accountable to your own standards.
    , @Logan
    The problem is with her scholarship and honesty, not her sex.
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  • John Wilkes Booth, the dumbest assassin in history. Kill Lincoln at the beginning to win, not after the loss when he was sending them all home.

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    • Replies: @Orville H. Larson
    Lincoln, Sherman, and Grant were degenerate war criminals. The only thing I've got against John Wilkes Booth is that he was four years too late.
    , @Clark Westwood

    John Wilkes Booth, the dumbest assassin in history.
     
    The predecessor of today's Hollywood idiots who think they're somehow entitled to play leading roles in world events.
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  • @Michael Kenny
    Something that always intrigues me as a European is why Americans spend so much time raking over old coals instead of solving today's problems and looking to the future.

    It’s a great way to keep the doltocracy divided & conquered. It may be more effective here because it also seems to play to the warped sense of exceptionalism/patriotism/militarism that is evident in camouflage baseball uniforms, etc.

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  • Something that always intrigues me as a European is why Americans spend so much time raking over old coals instead of solving today’s problems and looking to the future.

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    It's a great way to keep the doltocracy divided & conquered. It may be more effective here because it also seems to play to the warped sense of exceptionalism/patriotism/militarism that is evident in camouflage baseball uniforms, etc.
    , @wayfarer
    At the recently fabricated Charlottesville Virginia cluster fu#k, what was there something like three confederate and two nazi flags? That's about 0.0000015% of all the 326,625,791 people in the U.S. Furthermore there's even evidence now that indicates these false-flag-bearers were nothing more than a bogus-bunch of frustrated minimum-wage c-list crisis-actors.

    Americans for the most part could give a rat's ass about their history. It's only when the self-serving alt-left social engineering “elite” intentionally try to rip open old wounds, that you begin to see Americans reacting to the dark parts of their bygone times.

    All people need to completely let go of the past, stop friggin' worrying about the future, and begin living simply within each sacred god given present moment.
    , @The Alarmist
    Given how anti-democratic and destructive of underlying societal values that prevailed for centuries in individual European nations the EU is, I'm surprised so many Europeans cling to the fantasy that there is a need for the EU. Seems they think it will help avoid re-living unpleasant aspects of their history.
    , @Ace
    That's rich given the European obsession with Nazis. Dead and gone as of 70 years ago but in European political discourse as fresh as the morning dew. Do tell me more about how Americans are unique in spending so much time raking over old coals.
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  • @CPH
    "Generalissimo" Grant, indeed. A snide comment from a partisan of the losing side.

    “Drunken butcher” would be a better way to describe Grant.

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    • Replies: @Logan
    Guess which Civil War soldier lost the highest proportion of his men to combat death?

    Lee, not Grant.

    Grant's reputation as a butcher seems to be based on the Overland Campaign, where he often attacked frontally for lack of alternatives. Sea on one side, mountains on the other of a relatively narrow front, with a highly competent enemy it was difficult to deceive.

    Grants earlier campaigns in the West, where he had more room to maneuver show a tendency to outmaneuver the enemy rather than attack headon.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @dearieme
    Whenever I have remarked on an American blog that John Brown was a terrorist I've garnered hysterical replies. Why?

    This has just recently been the case. I was born in the late 1960′s and growing up, Brown was always referred to as a terrorist, even into the late 1980′s when I graduated high school.

    But lead by immigrant and felon Dinesh Joseph D’Souza there has been a move to demonize the South and Southerners and make heroes out of terrorists like Brown.

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  • Good and educational article, Iiana, thank you. I knew of the radical Reconstructionists and carpet-baggers, but you say several things I did not know.

    Also enjoyed your blog post that had a link, and the Fred Reed article from there (though had read that once before, worth reading it again).

    Nothing to add except that I spent two nights and a day ane a half lastt weekend walking and riding buses around the centre of the last major rising against the new government in Japan, not for the first time, it was not long after the American War of Northern Aggression, so about 15 years after the black ships..

    One place had a very beautiful screen from the nineteenth century, a real one, not a copy, of the black ships (USN Commodore Perry’s fleet), on a non-existant river, with landmarks on the shores, and feudal names and badges.

    Perry was a very heavy drunkard, died relatively young for it … and a pig, never to observing ‘when in Rome …’. We have our own saying for ‘when in Rome’, based on local behaviour. Trouble with our version, it is specific to within the place.

    Seeing the screen made me feel the connection with the war there. Arrogance on the part of the North. The unwelcome intrusion set up many wars and upheavals in Japan.

    Should be a lesson for today.

    Final, liked you attaching [sic.] to ‘than’ in ‘different than’.

    Also to me, not the English language I ever studied!

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  • When I saw the headline for this article, I was truly excited. Then I read it. It was obviously written by someone with a very recent acquaintance with the history of the era. No one else would make the cringe-worthy claim that Johnson was from NC, rather than TN. He became president because he was the VP when Lincoln was assassinated, and for no other reason. Otherwise the article is disjointed.
    When people claim a president can only be impeached for very sound reasons, I often point to Johnson, who avoided impeachment by a single vote for firing members of his own cabinet. Impeachment is more a political act than a legal one. Johnson was effectively neutered, and spent his remaining time in office approving pardon applications, personally signing thousands of them.
    Another point the author misses is that anyone who had served the Confederate military, government, or any of the participating state governments was disenfranchised by the Reconstruction Acts, and a presidential pardon was required to restore the right to vote. So basically the entire white South was disenfranchised for many years during reconstruction.
    4/5′s of the property in some Low Country counties of SC were taken from their owners for failure to pay the new property taxes to support the new public schools. Indeed, South Carolina didn’t pay off the last of the reconstruction era bonds until 1952, a few years before I was born.
    A lot of negative things, and very few good things, can be written about this time. It was mostly “stealing in the name of justice,” as the scoundrels doing the stealing waved the bloody shirt of the Union dead if the spotlight shone on their activities. While this can be compared to “violence in the name of peace,” that’s about as close as one can get when trying to compare the Radical Republicans to Antifa.

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  • @Binyamin
    The Jewish Ilana Mercer acknowledges approvingly 'Dr' Boyd D. Cathey, a holocaust denier- Cathey had a close association in the past with a holocaust denying organisation. Wow! No wonder even fringe on-line publications keep firing her. Trump can do at least some good during his miserable (and hopefully short) presidency by deporting all foreign born extremists and hate preachers. Perhaps he is deporting the wrong people?

    Spoken just like a (probably) Jewish Marxist or Anarchist.

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  • Once again, Ilana Mercer nails it – and the ‘it’ is something extremely important.

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    • Replies: @attilathehen
    (((Illana Mercer))) is doing her usual "conservative-libertarian schtick" routine. She and her rabbi father were kicked out of South Africa for their anti-apartheid work. http://www.ilanamercer.com/biographical. She's a negrophiliac.
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  • Antifas today = latifahs

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  • Just as interesting to me and easing any scepticism I might feel would be a bit more elaboration on those dot points and also *how* the Radical Republicans neutered the Supreme Court and also the President.

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  • $250 in 1865 equals $3595.73 in 2017

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  • “Generalissimo” Grant, indeed. A snide comment from a partisan of the losing side.

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    • Replies: @Chris Mallory
    "Drunken butcher" would be a better way to describe Grant.
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  • “Praised these days by the blonde-ambition faction of the Republican Party, the Radicals were stars of America’s own Reign of Terror”

    The problem with all this is that Reconstruction was immensely less harsh than the aftermath of any other great civil war in history.

    The true Reign of Terror in France executed around 20,000 to 40,000 people. (To be fair, the R of T took place during a time of immense peril for the revolutionary government.)

    Reconstruction executed exactly two men. One of whom fully deserved it for specific war crimes, the other of whom probably did not.

    But calling Reconstruction a Reign of Terror is pretty clearly hyperbole.

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  • Whenever I have remarked on an American blog that John Brown was a terrorist I’ve garnered hysterical replies. Why?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Chris Mallory
    This has just recently been the case. I was born in the late 1960's and growing up, Brown was always referred to as a terrorist, even into the late 1980's when I graduated high school.

    But lead by immigrant and felon Dinesh Joseph D'Souza there has been a move to demonize the South and Southerners and make heroes out of terrorists like Brown.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Rothschilds and the U.S. Civil War

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  • The Jewish Ilana Mercer acknowledges approvingly ‘Dr’ Boyd D. Cathey, a holocaust denier- Cathey had a close association in the past with a holocaust denying organisation. Wow! No wonder even fringe on-line publications keep firing her. Trump can do at least some good during his miserable (and hopefully short) presidency by deporting all foreign born extremists and hate preachers. Perhaps he is deporting the wrong people?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jake
    Spoken just like a (probably) Jewish Marxist or Anarchist.
    , @JustJeff
    Her father worked against apartheid and now she preaches how awful South Africa is now. I don't understand why anyone still publishes her dreck.
    , @Ace
    A trivial, inconsequential comment. Five seconds of my life utterly wasted.
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  • "Some crazy person just compared President Abraham Lincoln to Hitler. Yes, this just happened on CNN and Brooke Baldwin's reaction was perfect." So scribbled one Ricky Davila on Social Media (Twitter). Indeed, an elderly Southern gentleman had ventured that President Lincoln, not General Lee, murdered civilians, a point even a Court historian and a Lincoln...
  • @Clyde Wilson
    Grandpa Charlie has let his imagination run away with him. Wonder what source he is channeling for his false information? Or possibly reading comic books. Sherman did not have black Buffalo soldiers as a bodyguard. They did not even exist at the time. The notion of powerful black men protecting and liked by Sherman is pure fantasy and could not have been possible at the time. Sherman is on record as saying that he would be happy if the blacks could have been gotten rid of. Yes, Yankee soldiers did tear up dolls and nail pets to the door, as well as put guns to the heads of women, shoot 13 and 14 year old boys and black men, and rape black women. They also danced around in women's clothes while they burned houses, schools, churches, libraries, convents, etc. It is all documented as well as anything in history. At Appomattox Grant allowed the Confederates some rifles for protection on their way home. So that statement is false. Joe Johnston served as a pallbearer for Sherman not because they were great friends but as a gesture of reconciliation. Grandpa, put down those comic books and read some actual history.

    Every time I read an account of the Civil War or the days of slavery where someone mentions black women, slaves or otherwise, being raped by white slaveowners or other white men, I cannot help but roll my eyes. It is extremely difficult for me to believe an account like that. I don’t doubt that some blacks and all slaves in general were treated harshly, but rape is on another level. It is hard to believe that white men at the time were so attracted to black slaves that they would rape them. Tales like this seem like the type of complete fabrications that a race-baiter such as Al Sharpton would make up

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  • "Anybody who would trash Lee and laud Lincoln is either stupid as a post or just plain evil," said a sage reader. This applies in spades to anyone who would laud the Radical Republicans of 1865, as one TV GOP blonde has recently, and asininely, done. The Radical Republicans, if you can believe it, considered...
  • ” Civil War Conspiracy – Rothschilds Funded Both Sides From Europe – North Had Just As Many Slaves Too.”

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    • Replies: @Chris Dakota
    These fake Jew Rothschild's are behind every modern war. Every banker scam, every nation subversion.
    Why are they still alive?
    US Special Forces could take them all out in one day and the lower bag men like Soros would dry up and blow away into the night.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • "Some crazy person just compared President Abraham Lincoln to Hitler. Yes, this just happened on CNN and Brooke Baldwin's reaction was perfect." So scribbled one Ricky Davila on Social Media (Twitter). Indeed, an elderly Southern gentleman had ventured that President Lincoln, not General Lee, murdered civilians, a point even a Court historian and a Lincoln...
  • @SolontoCroesus
    your response is lame.

    if you have a link, post it. It's not my job to prove your claims.
    Pointing vaguely to Calvin.edu or even http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/ is like saying, "There's a word in the dictionary . . ."

    How many specific texts do you need to see? The idea of German blood being sacred is pervasive in their writing. If you won’t believe what the Nazis said about themselves, what will you believe?

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    provide a link Rosamond, or withdraw the claim as unsupported.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • "Anybody who would trash Lee and laud Lincoln is either stupid as a post or just plain evil," said a sage reader. This applies in spades to anyone who would laud the Radical Republicans of 1865, as one TV GOP blonde has recently, and asininely, done. The Radical Republicans, if you can believe it, considered...
  • Blondes get all the comments, too.

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  • "Some crazy person just compared President Abraham Lincoln to Hitler. Yes, this just happened on CNN and Brooke Baldwin's reaction was perfect." So scribbled one Ricky Davila on Social Media (Twitter). Indeed, an elderly Southern gentleman had ventured that President Lincoln, not General Lee, murdered civilians, a point even a Court historian and a Lincoln...
  • @Rosamond Vincy
    Read their own propaganda at Calvin.edu. During the war, there were German prisoners who refused blood transfusions from Allied medics rather than take the chance of receiving non-Aryan blood.

    your response is lame.

    if you have a link, post it. It’s not my job to prove your claims.
    Pointing vaguely to Calvin.edu or even http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/ is like saying, “There’s a word in the dictionary . . .”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    How many specific texts do you need to see? The idea of German blood being sacred is pervasive in their writing. If you won't believe what the Nazis said about themselves, what will you believe?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Rosamond Vincy
    "But only the British and Americans with Jewish advice bombed densely populated areas where there was no war industry."
    Why weren't they advised to bomb the tracks to the concentration camps? Wouldn't that have been more to the point?

    Why weren’t they advised to bomb the tracks to the concentration camps? Wouldn’t that have been more to the point?

    Quick response, inasmuch as this thread is nearly exhausted –

    1. Allied firebombing of Germany and Japan was a deliberate, planned, rehearsed strategy to terrorized and kill as many German civilians as possible, and to destroy as much of Germany’s civilian/cultural legacy as could be destroyed. This is documented unambiguously, unlike the alleged holocaust of Jewish people.

    2. There was and continues to be a vigorous debate between conflicting Jewish groups about whether Jews wanted Allies to bomb Auschwitz, or whether major Jewish leaders specifically refrained from requesting Allies to bomb Auschwitz.

    The Exec Summary = top level zionist Jews refused to request that Auschwitz or railroads be bombed. Lots of documentation, from highest level incl. Ben Gurion himself, to support that position. In a memo of a Jun 11, 1944 meeting of Jewish Agency Executive (JAE), Ben Gurion, Director, Ben Gurion reports the “consensus opinion” that the JAE “believed Auschwitz was a labor camp,” and that they “did not want to be responsible for the death of a single Jew.”
    The story continues that a few days later JAE got word of the April, 1944 escape from Auschwitz of Vrba and Wetzler, and that “changed the perspective” of JAE.
    Nevertheless, no documents have so far been uncovered that demonstrate that Ben Gurion & JAE reversed course and requested that Allies bomb Auschwitz.

    However, a Univ. of Haifa prof, Dr. Ruth Linn, argues that the higher-ups in Zio-sphere knowingly refused to rescue Hungarian Jews or even to allow their rescue or protection, i.e. by requesting bombing of Auschwitz OR of train tracks, in preference for padding the pockets of same muckety-mucks who were paid off to secure a few wealthy Hungarian Jews. Linn further claims that the Vrba report was withheld from leaders in Palestine & elsewhere “until it was too late;” and further, that Vrba’s information has NOT been translated into Hebrew and NOT made known to the larger Jewish community in Israel.

    http://rlinn.edu.haifa.ac.il/publications/books/escaping-auschwitz

    3. Cycle back to #1, above: Jews were pretty thoroughly informed of the extensive firebombing and destruction of Germany. Jews helped to plan it, and “Ritchie Boys” — about 2000 German Jews trained as spies & subversives at Fort Ritchie, MD, were all over Germany — one Ritchie Boy knew beforehand about the planned USAF firebombing of Nordhausen that was blamed on Germans — his job was to ensure that equipment and facilities at Nordhausen be preserved because they had been promised to the Russians.

    https://codoh.com/library/document/4055/

    The real question that should be asked is, How many Jews died as a result of Allied firebombing of Germany?

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  • @SolontoCroesus

    Nazi Germany would have considered lactation from untermenschen (-frauen?) as contamination, not nourishment. Had such a thing been reported, the government might well have had the wet-nurse (and anyone responsible for hiring her) arrested for Rassenschande.
     
    how do you know this?

    can you prove it through methods Socrates or Aristotle or the intellectual foundation of vaunted 'western civilization' would have relied upon?

    if you can prove your statement in that fashion, why didn't you?

    if you can't prove your statement, then why did you bother to write it?

    Read their own propaganda at Calvin.edu. During the war, there were German prisoners who refused blood transfusions from Allied medics rather than take the chance of receiving non-Aryan blood.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    your response is lame.

    if you have a link, post it. It's not my job to prove your claims.
    Pointing vaguely to Calvin.edu or even http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/ is like saying, "There's a word in the dictionary . . ."

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Rosamond Vincy
    The racism of the Confederacy was not remotely like that of Nazi Germany. For instance, it was common for white children in the pre-War South to have black wet-nurses, a practice depicted in GWTW as well as Gwen Bristow's Plantation Trilogy. This might indicate that the slaves' own black children got short rations and less attention (witness the song "All The Pretty Little Horses), but it was exploitation that involved social as well as nutritional mixing of the races.
    Nazi Germany would have considered lactation from untermenschen (-frauen?) as contamination, not nourishment. Had such a thing been reported, the government might well have had the wet-nurse (and anyone responsible for hiring her) arrested for Rassenschande. In addition, if they were unable to do what the ancient Roman matron in the legend did--forcing her own infant to vomit up the milk of an "inferior" person before it could be digested--one hesitates to guess what they might do to the contaminated "Aryan" baby.
    Slavery in the South seems closer to Feudal Europe than Nazi Germany. Manorial lords may have exploited their peasants, but they also had certain responsibilities towards them.

    Nazi Germany would have considered lactation from untermenschen (-frauen?) as contamination, not nourishment. Had such a thing been reported, the government might well have had the wet-nurse (and anyone responsible for hiring her) arrested for Rassenschande.

    how do you know this?

    can you prove it through methods Socrates or Aristotle or the intellectual foundation of vaunted ‘western civilization’ would have relied upon?

    if you can prove your statement in that fashion, why didn’t you?

    if you can’t prove your statement, then why did you bother to write it?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Read their own propaganda at Calvin.edu. During the war, there were German prisoners who refused blood transfusions from Allied medics rather than take the chance of receiving non-Aryan blood.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Alden
    There's collateral damage and there's specifically targeted civilians. For instance when the Germans invaded Poland they captured every Catholic priest they could. A few months later about 5,000 Catholic priests were executed and dumped in mass graves. Later on, Polish Jews, especially in cities were targets for relocation within the city. Streets were blocked off, there were walls and armed guards.

    Between the Russians and Germans, 20 percent of the Polish population was killed but only some groups were specifically targeted.

    It is very, very clear that both sides in WW2 bombed industrial areas. Many civilian residents were killed as collateral damage in those areas.

    But only the British and Americans with Jewish advice bombed densely populated areas where there was no war industry. Düsseldorf, center of metal manufacture and iron and steel mills for a thousand years was a legitimate target to destroy the mills and factories.

    Dresden on the other hand had no heavy industry and little light industry.
    Dresden was of absolutely no use to the German war effort. Augustus the strong had the money to achieve his artistic vision. He wanted a Protestant Vatican or Ishifan type city and he did it. It was like Venice and Bruges, Florence, Sienna and other cities designed, built and managed to be beautiful.

    And the Americans and British killed most of the Dresden population just out of cruelty and viciousness. I think more German civilians were killed in just one raid on Hamburg than in all the English killed in air raids during the entire war.

    “But only the British and Americans with Jewish advice bombed densely populated areas where there was no war industry.”
    Why weren’t they advised to bomb the tracks to the concentration camps? Wouldn’t that have been more to the point?

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    Why weren’t they advised to bomb the tracks to the concentration camps? Wouldn’t that have been more to the point?
     
    Quick response, inasmuch as this thread is nearly exhausted --

    1. Allied firebombing of Germany and Japan was a deliberate, planned, rehearsed strategy to terrorized and kill as many German civilians as possible, and to destroy as much of Germany's civilian/cultural legacy as could be destroyed. This is documented unambiguously, unlike the alleged holocaust of Jewish people.

    2. There was and continues to be a vigorous debate between conflicting Jewish groups about whether Jews wanted Allies to bomb Auschwitz, or whether major Jewish leaders specifically refrained from requesting Allies to bomb Auschwitz.

    The Exec Summary = top level zionist Jews refused to request that Auschwitz or railroads be bombed. Lots of documentation, from highest level incl. Ben Gurion himself, to support that position. In a memo of a Jun 11, 1944 meeting of Jewish Agency Executive (JAE), Ben Gurion, Director, Ben Gurion reports the "consensus opinion" that the JAE "believed Auschwitz was a labor camp," and that they "did not want to be responsible for the death of a single Jew."
    The story continues that a few days later JAE got word of the April, 1944 escape from Auschwitz of Vrba and Wetzler, and that "changed the perspective" of JAE.
    Nevertheless, no documents have so far been uncovered that demonstrate that Ben Gurion & JAE reversed course and requested that Allies bomb Auschwitz.

    However, a Univ. of Haifa prof, Dr. Ruth Linn, argues that the higher-ups in Zio-sphere knowingly refused to rescue Hungarian Jews or even to allow their rescue or protection, i.e. by requesting bombing of Auschwitz OR of train tracks, in preference for padding the pockets of same muckety-mucks who were paid off to secure a few wealthy Hungarian Jews. Linn further claims that the Vrba report was withheld from leaders in Palestine & elsewhere "until it was too late;" and further, that Vrba's information has NOT been translated into Hebrew and NOT made known to the larger Jewish community in Israel.
    http://rlinn.edu.haifa.ac.il/publications/books/escaping-auschwitz

    3. Cycle back to #1, above: Jews were pretty thoroughly informed of the extensive firebombing and destruction of Germany. Jews helped to plan it, and "Ritchie Boys" -- about 2000 German Jews trained as spies & subversives at Fort Ritchie, MD, were all over Germany -- one Ritchie Boy knew beforehand about the planned USAF firebombing of Nordhausen that was blamed on Germans -- his job was to ensure that equipment and facilities at Nordhausen be preserved because they had been promised to the Russians.

    https://codoh.com/library/document/4055/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox7lmr2XDOI

    The real question that should be asked is, How many Jews died as a result of Allied firebombing of Germany?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • The racism of the Confederacy was not remotely like that of Nazi Germany. For instance, it was common for white children in the pre-War South to have black wet-nurses, a practice depicted in GWTW as well as Gwen Bristow’s Plantation Trilogy. This might indicate that the slaves’ own black children got short rations and less attention (witness the song “All The Pretty Little Horses), but it was exploitation that involved social as well as nutritional mixing of the races.
    Nazi Germany would have considered lactation from untermenschen (-frauen?) as contamination, not nourishment. Had such a thing been reported, the government might well have had the wet-nurse (and anyone responsible for hiring her) arrested for Rassenschande. In addition, if they were unable to do what the ancient Roman matron in the legend did–forcing her own infant to vomit up the milk of an “inferior” person before it could be digested–one hesitates to guess what they might do to the contaminated “Aryan” baby.
    Slavery in the South seems closer to Feudal Europe than Nazi Germany. Manorial lords may have exploited their peasants, but they also had certain responsibilities towards them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    Nazi Germany would have considered lactation from untermenschen (-frauen?) as contamination, not nourishment. Had such a thing been reported, the government might well have had the wet-nurse (and anyone responsible for hiring her) arrested for Rassenschande.
     
    how do you know this?

    can you prove it through methods Socrates or Aristotle or the intellectual foundation of vaunted 'western civilization' would have relied upon?

    if you can prove your statement in that fashion, why didn't you?

    if you can't prove your statement, then why did you bother to write it?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    Yes indeed.

    Then the British got an additional $3.-- billion to rebuild.

    The point is that the British got more support to attack/destroy Germany, in addition to aid in rebuilding, than Germany got to rebuild.

    So all the noxious virtue signaling about how "US rebuilt Germany" is bogus and dishonest, tho it's likely Grampa Charlie drinks it up every morning with his prune juice and stool softener.

    Yeah. This is somehow surprising? That an ally is given more support than an enemy?

    The traditional approach in war is to loot an enemy country, not help it to rebuild.

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  • @Logan
    Lend-Lease was intended to help the British stay in the fight, not to rebuild.

    Yes indeed.

    Then the British got an additional $3.– billion to rebuild.

    The point is that the British got more support to attack/destroy Germany, in addition to aid in rebuilding, than Germany got to rebuild.

    So all the noxious virtue signaling about how “US rebuilt Germany” is bogus and dishonest, tho it’s likely Grampa Charlie drinks it up every morning with his prune juice and stool softener.

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    • Replies: @Logan
    Yeah. This is somehow surprising? That an ally is given more support than an enemy?

    The traditional approach in war is to loot an enemy country, not help it to rebuild.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Logan
    Total British civilian dead from air raids in WWII about 40,000.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/10454718/Records-of-WW2-civilian-war-dead-published-online.html

    Total dead civilians from air raids in Germany during WWII around 600,000.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/oct/22/worlddispatch.germany

    Dead civilians in a single attack on Hamburg 42,000, so more than the total for Britain in the whole war.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Hamburg_in_World_War_II

    Dead civilians in the firebombing of Dresden, probably about 25,000.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2015/02/remembering-dresden-70-years-after-the-firebombing/385445/

    Thank you for taking time to research and offering up the numbers.

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  • @Alden
    Who are you to demand sources from me? Are you my editor? Do you pay me? So don't demand sources. I've read hundreds of thousands of history books in my life time. I do very little Internet research because it is so superficial

    When in in San Mateo I use my alumna card at the Curtis Green library. When in Los Angeles I use my retiree card at Powell and the URL

    These are some of the greatest libraries in the world. I also order library of congress books through those libraries

    I certainly can't remember two of probably a hundred thousand or more books I've read in my lifetime.

    You are about 60 years behind Jewish leadership in assigning blame for the holocaust. You are still stuck in the 1950s when the Jewish leadership correctly blamed the Germans for what happened to Jews during WW2.

    You need to get au courant. 1940 to 1960 Jews blamed Germany for the holocaust. 1960 to the late 1980s Jews blamed Popes and the Catholics of Europe for the holocaust. Allegedly back in 1930 the current Pope gave Hitler hundreds of millions of Marks so the Nazis could take over Germany.

    During the Hitler acted on the orders of Pope Pius and set up the concentration camps. Catholic clergy and ordinary Catholics delivered Jews to the gestapo.

    Late 198os the story changed. Currently it's called the "European Holocaust" by Holocaust soi disant " scholars and researchers" LOL

    Currently the people responsible for the holocaust are the ordinary civilians and local government employees of the German occupied nations. The Netherlands, France, Poland, Austria, Hungary did it, not the Germans. It was city police and civilians who rounded up Jews and shipped them off to the ovens; or was it gas chambers?

    Your posts are soooo 1955. Get au courant. Subscribe to Jewish publications and learn the who is currently blamed for the holocaust.

    It's interesting that the foremost haters of Poles and Poland have been German Nazis and Jews. Verrrrry interesting no?

    “Who are you to demand sources from me? Are you my editor? Do you pay me? So don’t demand sources.”

    In a conversation where one makes a claim, and then is asked to cite sources, it is courtesy to offer such materials.

    “I’ve read hundreds of thousands of history books in my life time.”

    That’s a rather tall claim. One could assume that besides history books, you have read non-history books. I gather you are retired. So, for fun, let us assume that you are 80 years old AND you began reading at age 4 since you were a prodigy. 76 x 365 = 27740 days of your life. Let us now assume you read 200000 HISTORY books, since that was YOUR claim. 200000 divided by 27740 = 7.20. So, your average number of books a day is 7.

    Considering that the average number of books people read over the course of a year is 12…

    For the sake of argument, let us say the books you read averaged 100 pages, which would be on the low end. That would be 700 pages to read in a day. Consider that the average reading speed is 200-250 words a minute for non-technical material, (roughly 2 minutes per page). But assuming you were that prodigy, I will grant you for non-technical AND technical material, you would average 1 page in two minutes and meaningfully comprehend the information. That would mean 30 pages in 60 minutes/1 hour.

    Do you see where the math is leading us? Had you stated that you read thousands of history books in your lifetime, while highly unlikely, at least this possibility is more digestible than your claim of reading hundreds of thousands of history books.

    Maybe you should be in contact with this lady…

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5932159/Britains-most-avid-reader-91-has-borrowed-25000-library-books.html

    “You are about 60 years behind Jewish leadership in assigning blame for the holocaust. You are still stuck in the 1950s when the Jewish leadership correctly blamed the Germans for what happened to Jews during WW2. You need to get au courant. 1940 to 1960 Jews blamed Germany for the holocaust. 1960 to the late 1980s Jews blamed Popes and the Catholics of Europe for the holocaust. Allegedly back in 1930 the current Pope gave Hitler hundreds of millions of Marks so the Nazis could take over Germany.”

    I would surmise that within the Jewish community, there are disagreements as to whether those leaders taking alternative positions on who is to blame for the Holocaust are indeed legitimate leaders, represent mainstream Jewish thought, and make relevant arguments.

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  • @SolontoCroesus

    The Morgenthau Plan . . .to destroy and de populate Germany. . . was just a plan and never seriously considered.
     
    I don't think that is correct.

    There's an extensive collection of photos after (about) pg. 525 of Jean Edward Smith's biography of FDR
    https://www.amazon.com/FDR-Jean-Edward-Smith/dp/0812970497

    One photo shows FDR sitting in an open car, Churchill standing next to the car talking to Roosevelt.
    The legend says:
    "A beaming Churchill greeds FDR at Quebec for the OCTAGON conference, September 14, 1944. It was here that Roosevelt and Churchill initially approved the Morgenthau Plan for the pastoralization of Germany." - Courtesy of the National Archives and Records Administration"

    Text on pg. 624 expands:

    "Secretary of the Treasury [Henry Morgenthau, Jr.] accompanied the president at Quebec, where he and Churchill endorsed the Morgenthau Plan . . . Churchill was initially aghast. "I am all for dis-arming Germany, but we ought not prevent her living decently. There are bonds between the working classes of all countries, and the English people will not stand for the policy you are advocating. . . You cannot indict a whole nation." But when Morgenthau agreed to write off Britain's Lend Lease debt and proposed a $3 billion postwar loan for the British economy, Churchill relented. "When I have to choose between my people and the German people, I am going to choose my people," he told an incredulous Eden. . . .

    Back in Washington the responsible cabinet officers heaped scorn on the proposal. "I have yet to meet a man who is not horrified at the 'Cartheginian' attitude of the Treasury," said Stimson. "It is Semitism gone wild for vengeance and will lay the seeds for another war in the next generation." In Stimson's view, the industrial capacity of the Ruhr and the Saar were essential for the recovery of Europe. Hull told Roosevelt it would lead to last-ditch, bitter-end German resistance that would cost thousands of American lives. When the Republicans appeared ready to make the Morgenthau Plan a campaign issue, FDR backed off. "Henry Morgenthau pulled a boner," he told Stimson on Oct. 3. The president was frankly staggered by the plan to convert Germany into an agricultural and pastoral country and "had no idea how he could have initialed this."

    That Roosevelt did not remember may have been his way of disassociating from an unpopular position."
     
    It may be the case that the Morgenthau Plan was not fully implemented, but in a conference sponsored by the Marshall Foundation in 2014, "eminent historian Gerhard Weinberg" explained that to the extent that was so, it was because Morgenthau was "too soft" on the German people:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79KU997m9o4

    (29 min.) "The plan was to turn Germany into a country like Holland and Denmark, with a high standard of living but no heavy industry. As Churchill put it, quote "Fat but impotent." Mythmakers have refrained from looking at the original document published decades ago: Its four pages and map illustrate the obvious: if such a change were to be made, Germany would need the bulk of its eastern agricultural land. One could not take it away, push the Germans there into the remainder, and expect the country to survive without vast export industries.
    The project was abandoned because of Stalin's insistence on the Oder-Neisse Line . . The proposal Roosevelt and Churchill preferred was too soft, not too hard on the Germans.
     
    Weinberg reconfirmed and expanded his interpretation of the Morgenthau plan and whether or not, or why or why it was not implemented, in response to a question from the audience:

    (@ 1:17} "Churchill was in favor of it [Morgenthau plan].

    The critical point here was an effort to prevent what everybody at the time was terrified of -- we forget this today: Twenty years after Germany's World War I defeat, they were running around the globe again. And everybody was terrified that in another twenty years those folks would be at our throats again.

    Now you and I know that between them the Red Army and the strategic bombing offensive taught the Germans that, 'If you don't want your house to burn, don't set the world on fire.' They have learned that lesson.

    But during World War II we tend to forget how concerned people in all countries -- The main reason Stalin agreed to United Nations organization, interestingly enough, Soviets had been thrown out of League of Nations -- was because he saw it as prospective barrier against a new German effort at a third world war. Under those circumstances the notion, having Germany, as I said and as was said at the time, brought in like Denmark and Holland -- high standard of living but no heavy industry -- looked quite attractive, and certainly looked very attractive to Winston Churchill. But that would mean that Germany had to keep the surplus agricultural lands that it had. It was Stalin -- not at that point really friendly to the Germans -- who torpedoed the possibility by insisting that the Eastern part of Germany be taken away and turned over to Poland and a piece of it to the Soviet Union, and all of the people in it shoved out into the rest of Germany. I have sometimes wondered whether the additional 5 - 6 million people who lost their homes because the Morgenthau plan was eventually scuttled, are really quite that happy about having that drop. As I said, whether it was right or wrong, the reason it was dropped was that it was too soft on the Germans, not too hard on them. "
     
    Readers will note that the comments that Smith quoted of Churchill's, Roosevelt's, Stimson's and Hull's revulsion to the Morgenthau plan directly contradict Weinberg's assertions.

    [Editorial comment: Weisberg is a nasty piece of work: the way he screws up his face as he speaks reflects the ugly distortions he overlays on his interpretation of the history. ]

    Whether or not, or to what extent Germany was de-industrialized or "taught a lesson," the chronology tells a story of its own:

    On June 5, 1947 -- more than two years after Germany surrendered, George C Marshall spoke at the Harvard commencement ceremony.

    "Marshall presented a picture of a European economy in a state of disintegration. The costs of World War II, in terms of physical destruction, the liquidation of assets, and general economic dislocation, threatened to cause a complete breakdown of normal social and commercial life. . . . goods needed for production and exports were virtually nonexistent. Food shortages confronted large segments of urban populations with undernourishment and even starvation . . . Governments were quickly exhausting their last reserves in order to import the necessities of life for their populations.

    "It is logical," Marshall continued, "that the United States should do whatever it is able to do to assist in the return of normal economic health to the world, without which there can be no political stability and no assured peace. Our policy is directed not against any country or doctrine but against hunger, poverty, desperation, and chaos." http://marshallfoundation.org/library/wp-content/uploads/sites/16/2014/05/The_Marshall_Plan_Origins_and_Implementation_000.pdf
     
    The USA eventually invested $13 billion in the Marshall Plan for post-war recovery of Europe. According to wikipedia,

    While Germany struggled to recover from the destruction of the War, the recovery effort began in June 1948, moving on from emergency relief. . . .

    During the first three years of occupation of Germany, the UK and US vigorously pursued a military disarmament program in Germany, partly by removal of equipment but mainly through an import embargo on raw materials, part of the Morgenthau Plan approved by President Franklin D. Roosevelt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
     
    Of that $13 billion,
    $3,501 billion went to Italy;
    $3,391 billion went to (west) Germany;
    $3,190 billion to United Kingdom;**
    $2,714 billion to France.
    with smaller amounts to 13 other countries.
    http://marshallfoundation.org/library/documents/marshall-plan-payments-millions-european-economic-cooperation-countries/


    **U S Lend-Lease loans to Britain had already amounted to $4.5 billion

    Lend-Lease was intended to help the British stay in the fight, not to rebuild.

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Yes indeed.

    Then the British got an additional $3.-- billion to rebuild.

    The point is that the British got more support to attack/destroy Germany, in addition to aid in rebuilding, than Germany got to rebuild.

    So all the noxious virtue signaling about how "US rebuilt Germany" is bogus and dishonest, tho it's likely Grampa Charlie drinks it up every morning with his prune juice and stool softener.
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  • @Corvinus
    "Yes I know for a fact that as many German civilians were killed in just one Hamburg raid than all the British civilians killed in air raids during the war."

    Then provide a source.

    "Dresden didn’t really have large factories. They were more like workshops, an owner and 5 to 20 employees."

    No.

    https://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=55

    "Allied reports indicated the presence of the Zeiss-Ikon optical factory and Siemans glass factory (which produced gun sights), and other factories building radar, anti-aircraft shell fuses, gas masks, fighter engines, and various fighter parts. The proponents of the war crimes argument claimed that Dresden was bombed by Allied terror bombing strategy, meanwhile prominent military historians such as B. H. Liddell Hart compared the bombing to the methods of the 13th century Mongols. For years to come, Air Marshal Arthur Harris had been again and again under challenge to justify the attacks. He held fast to the belief that although it was near the end of the war, the military needs at
    that time warranted the bombing of this communications hub."

    "I read that book that claimed Eisenhower murdered hundreds of thousands of German POWs in detention camps after the war."

    Which one?

    "A few years later I read the book that totally refuted the book about Eisenhower’s murder of almost a million German POWs."

    Which one?

    "WW2 is your obsession, not mine."

    That would be Solonto Croesus.

    Total British civilian dead from air raids in WWII about 40,000.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/10454718/Records-of-WW2-civilian-war-dead-published-online.html

    Total dead civilians from air raids in Germany during WWII around 600,000.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/oct/22/worlddispatch.germany

    Dead civilians in a single attack on Hamburg 42,000, so more than the total for Britain in the whole war.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Hamburg_in_World_War_II

    Dead civilians in the firebombing of Dresden, probably about 25,000.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2015/02/remembering-dresden-70-years-after-the-firebombing/385445/

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    Thank you for taking time to research and offering up the numbers.
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