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    As human capital is so important for prosperity, it behoves us to know China's in detail to assess whether it will continue converging on developed countries. Until recently the best data we had were disparate IQ tests (on the basis of which Richard Lynn's latest estimate is an IQ of 105.8 in his 2012 book...
  • […] How to catch a superluminal particle. Chinese IQ. When chemistry was outlawed (by the 1404 ‘Act Against Multiplication’ — they […]

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    Analysis Of China’s PISA 2009 Results

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  • br says: • Website
    @Anonymous
    Your analyzed data is probably far from the actual figure of China. In 2005, China randomly selected around 1200 children from age 8-10 from each province and tested the children's average IQ as part of an iodine deficiency study. According to the results:

    Beijing——114.1±14.6
    Tianjin——105.3±14.7
    Hebei——105.4±14.4
    Shanxi——108.0±14.0
    Inner Mongolia——105.1±13.8
    Liaoning——107.5±14.3
    Jilin——107.0±14.6
    Heilongjiang——101.4±16.6
    Shanghai——115.3±14.1
    Jiangsu——109.0±14.3
    Zhejiang——115.8±13.0
    Anhui——98.2±17.7
    Fujian——107.1±15.0
    Jiangxi——98.9±18.3
    Shandong——107.9±16.0
    Henan——95.4±16.3
    Hubei——105.3±14.3
    Hunan——103.8±16.8
    Guangdong——101.1±15.3
    Guangxi——98.3±15.7
    Hainan——90.7±15.9 (iodine deficient)
    Chongqing——106.3±14.4
    Sichuan——105.4±16.4
    Guizhou——92.8±15.9
    Yunnan——96.8±17.7
    Tibet——77.3±16.8 (iodine deficient)
    Shaanxi——104.7±15.6
    Gansu——96.9±15.6
    Qinghai——92.8±16.8
    Ningxia——93.4±17.1
    Xinjiang——98.2±16.5
    ————————————————
    Total——103.4±17.7

    In my opinion, the result has more to do with the level of economic development rather than demographics.

    Based on your provincial IQ scores, I’ve made a prediction of China’s full country PISA score.
    (With a fair number of assumptions : The IQ numbers are relatively accurate, IQ scores correlate with PISA scores, educational quality is similar throughout China, and IQ scores are gaussian)

    It’s not too different from the US except for math.

    Test Avg Level1 Level2 Level3 Level4 Level5 Level6 Level7
    Science 514 3.39 10.92 22.53 29.52 23.91 8.87 0.97

    Test Avg Level1a Level1 Level2 Level3 Level4 Level5 Level6 Level7
    Reading 503 1.59 2.50 10.93 23.71 29.43 23.14 7.94 0.86

    Test Avg Level1 Level2 Level3 Level4 Level5 Level6 Level7
    Math 531 7.05 10.71 16.54 18.89 19.48 15.75 11.68

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  • In the discussion at the previous post, in which I took exception to Ron Unz's theory of the East Asian Exception, he alerted me to so additional work on the matter he'd done as a Harvard freshman on Chinese IQ. You can read his summary of Social Darwinism and Rural China as well as Steve...
  • anon • Disclaimer says:
    @AG
    Great debate! You raise very important question. The east asian countries that use hanzi汉字, chopsticks, and practice confucianism, zen buddism are China (Han), Japan, Korea, Vietnam. At the same time, these countres also have higher national IQ exept vietnam. Other eas asians including Tibetan do not have impressive national IQ. Like rec1man mentioned, 5% of the Indian population is of Oriental race and they dont have a high IQ..

    Does Han Chinese cultues over thousands years influence on Korea, Japan make the difference in national IQ? Or high IQ people tend to embrace Han culture? This is chicken-egg issue. Fenjia might be part of han culture influence. But I do not know for sure.

    东亚高智商国家都是在中华文化圈中。

    .’ Like rec1man mentioned, 5% of the Indian population is of Oriental race and they dont have a high IQ..’

    Rec1man is no authority. His arguments are full of holes and best to be ignored. He claims an IQ ~ 120 for Indian Brahmins which is laughable at best and around 35-45 points inflated. The oriental Indians (NE Indians ) have the highest literacy ~100% and better standards of living despite the hilly (and agriculturally unproductive) environment they live in. I do think they have IQ in range of Maynmar/SE Asians ~90 which is ten points above rest of India.

    Disclaimer: I am not a North East Indian.

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  • @Anonymous
    I think Korean/Japanese/Han Chinese had some IQ increasing mutation after they came to Manchuria. If we look at Y-haplogroup history and distribution, that must have happened around 7-8 thousand years ago. That would explain the current IQ distribution in the region completely (Japanese have slightly lower IQ since they have 1/3 Ainu admixture). I also don't think south Chinese have this mutation (may be as Han admixture but not originally).

    Hans are not the original aborigines of south china. I suspect the aborigines were australoids similar to philipinos or khmers and south china was quite sparsely populated those days. As the chinese empire expanded or when it was under threats of futher north nomads, hans migrated south. Most of the australoid aborigines moved to places such as present day cambodia, some stay behind and became minority tribes and are mostly assimulated. Even N vietnamese are 70% han by ancestry. One good example is 6th century chinese poems written by northern poets rhyme better in the guangzhou(a southern) dialect

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Jim
    @Glossy

    "I don’t own a copy of “IQ and Global Inequality.” If you own one, can you quote the place that cites Mongolian IQ at 101?"
    See:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Shokioto22/sandbox

    “I have Lynn’s “Race Differences in Intelligence” here, published in 2006. On p. 240 he says:
    There is a further anomaly in the intelligence of the peoples of Northeast Asia concerning the IQs of the Mongols of Mongolia and the closely related Samoyeds of Northern Siberia. There are no studies of the intelligence of these peoples but their low level of cultural development and technology suggests that it is not so high as that of the East Asians of China, Japan and Korea.”

    It seems a bit strange that the Mongols can be compared to the reindeer-herding Samoyeds of the Arctic. I'm not saying they are stupid (in fact the Samoyeds may be quite intelligent) but the Mongols should clearly be on another level. First the Samoyeds are only 45,000 and have been reindeer-herding in the far-northern Arctic for the past 5000 years. Mongols are 10 million and starting from the Donghu 3500 years ago have been constantly engaged in complex herding of sheep, goats, horses, cattle, camels and yaks (around 50 million animals at any time). The Monguor are a Mongol-speaking people numbering 250,000 who practice only agriculture and follow Confucianism mixed with Daoism and Buddhism. The Mongol lands have always (for the past 3500 years) been connected to China by an intimate umbilical cord of direct political, economic and social relations which places Mongols firmly within East Asia. They have a history of statehood stretching back 3000 years. In many respects they outdo the Tibetans if you look at the larger picture.

    The Samoyeds have been living in one stagnant social system (reindeer-herding) for the past 5000 years. The Chinese have been living in one closed social system (strictly sedentary agricultural) for the past 6000 years. The Mongols on the other have been living in a much more diverse and challenging social system incorporating steppe nomadic empires, Chinese settled agriculture, South Siberian hunting lifestyle, Tibetan religious complexity and Manchurian pastoral-agricultural hybrid lifestyle. And to this one must add the recent intensive Russian cultural influence.

    So Mongols should be studied within the sphere of East Asian IQ studies. One should remember that the Koreans and Japanese also came from Mongolia and the Lake Baikal region.

    I think Korean/Japanese/Han Chinese had some IQ increasing mutation after they came to Manchuria. If we look at Y-haplogroup history and distribution, that must have happened around 7-8 thousand years ago. That would explain the current IQ distribution in the region completely (Japanese have slightly lower IQ since they have 1/3 Ainu admixture). I also don’t think south Chinese have this mutation (may be as Han admixture but not originally).

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    • Replies: @ObaMahdi
    Hans are not the original aborigines of south china. I suspect the aborigines were australoids similar to philipinos or khmers and south china was quite sparsely populated those days. As the chinese empire expanded or when it was under threats of futher north nomads, hans migrated south. Most of the australoid aborigines moved to places such as present day cambodia, some stay behind and became minority tribes and are mostly assimulated. Even N vietnamese are 70% han by ancestry. One good example is 6th century chinese poems written by northern poets rhyme better in the guangzhou(a southern) dialect
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  • As human capital is so important for prosperity, it behoves us to know China's in detail to assess whether it will continue converging on developed countries. Until recently the best data we had were disparate IQ tests (on the basis of which Richard Lynn's latest estimate is an IQ of 105.8 in his 2012 book...
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Your analyzed data is probably far from the actual figure of China. In 2005, China randomly selected around 1200 children from age 8-10 from each province and tested the children’s average IQ as part of an iodine deficiency study. According to the results:

    Beijing——114.1±14.6
    Tianjin——105.3±14.7
    Hebei——105.4±14.4
    Shanxi——108.0±14.0
    Inner Mongolia——105.1±13.8
    Liaoning——107.5±14.3
    Jilin——107.0±14.6
    Heilongjiang——101.4±16.6
    Shanghai——115.3±14.1
    Jiangsu——109.0±14.3
    Zhejiang——115.8±13.0
    Anhui——98.2±17.7
    Fujian——107.1±15.0
    Jiangxi——98.9±18.3
    Shandong——107.9±16.0
    Henan——95.4±16.3
    Hubei——105.3±14.3
    Hunan——103.8±16.8
    Guangdong——101.1±15.3
    Guangxi——98.3±15.7
    Hainan——90.7±15.9 (iodine deficient)
    Chongqing——106.3±14.4
    Sichuan——105.4±16.4
    Guizhou——92.8±15.9
    Yunnan——96.8±17.7
    Tibet——77.3±16.8 (iodine deficient)
    Shaanxi——104.7±15.6
    Gansu——96.9±15.6
    Qinghai——92.8±16.8
    Ningxia——93.4±17.1
    Xinjiang——98.2±16.5
    ————————————————
    Total——103.4±17.7

    In my opinion, the result has more to do with the level of economic development rather than demographics.

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    • Replies: @br
    Based on your provincial IQ scores, I've made a prediction of China's full country PISA score.
    (With a fair number of assumptions : The IQ numbers are relatively accurate, IQ scores correlate with PISA scores, educational quality is similar throughout China, and IQ scores are gaussian)

    It's not too different from the US except for math.

    Test Avg Level1 Level2 Level3 Level4 Level5 Level6 Level7
    Science 514 3.39 10.92 22.53 29.52 23.91 8.87 0.97

    Test Avg Level1a Level1 Level2 Level3 Level4 Level5 Level6 Level7
    Reading 503 1.59 2.50 10.93 23.71 29.43 23.14 7.94 0.86

    Test Avg Level1 Level2 Level3 Level4 Level5 Level6 Level7
    Math 531 7.05 10.71 16.54 18.89 19.48 15.75 11.68

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • In the discussion at the previous post, in which I took exception to Ron Unz's theory of the East Asian Exception, he alerted me to so additional work on the matter he'd done as a Harvard freshman on Chinese IQ. You can read his summary of Social Darwinism and Rural China as well as Steve...
  • @Jim
    "I’m pretty sure that they didn’t have real statehood at the time of their conquests of the 13th century. A real state is bigger than any man or any family. A real state cannot be split among the children of a king. It is not any man’s or any family’s property. It has large bureaucratic institutions that tend to endure in a stable fashion through many changes of leadership. It can go on functioning without anyone at the top."

    They did have a state, in a sense, because they were part of or closely connected to a bigger truly state-like entity, the Jin Dynasty (1115-1234). The Borjigin Mongols of Khan were the Menggu Shiwei and they had long been part of the civilized Liao Dynasty (907-1125) and later had intimate relations with the equally civilized Jin Dynasty. Khan was actually given the title "chautquri" (battle ruler) by the Jin Emperor Wanyan Madage. So the Mongols always had an imperial mindset.

    One day a Mongol could be alone hunting deer near Lake Baikal or chasing wild asses in the remotest part of the Gobi Desert (like a hunter-gatherer, developmentally a stage below pastoralism), a few weeks later he could be seated in the presence of the Chinese emperor (in many cases an ethnic Mongol himself as was the case with the Khitans and Tuoba) in Beijing or Chang'an (where half-Mongol Tang emperors ruled) discussing military affairs, trade relations and matters of imperial administration. This pattern can be seen all through history.

    For example (from Wikipedia) 'the Mongolic-speaking Xianbei originally formed a part of the Donghu confederation, but existed even before that time, as evidenced by a mention in the Guoyu ("晉語八" section) which states that during the reign of King Cheng of Zhou (reigned 1042-1021 BC) the Xianbei came to participate at a meeting of Zhou subject-lords at Qiyang (岐阳) (now Qishan County) but were only allowed to perform the fire ceremony under the supervision of Chu (楚), since they were not vassals by covenant (诸侯).'

    I may not know the fine details but I know that there was a succession of rather advanced empires on the Mongolian steppes starting with the Donghu (c. 1200B.C.-209B.C), Xiongnu (209B.C.-93A.D) and continuing with the Xianbei (93-234), Murong (235-670), Rouran (330-555), Turk (552-744), Uyghur (745-840), Liao (907-1125) and all these before the Mongols of Khan. These states were big and complex enough and had close enough relations with China so I would call them states. They all had a physical territory, a subject population, formalized foreign relations, an organized state bureaucracy, so I think most of the basic criteria are met.

    I'm not sure if the same 3000 year old tradition of statehood applies in Central Asia, in the Stans. It's far from China. It's true though that Iran exerted a lot of influence culturally and genetically from the Achaemenids onward. There (in Central Asia) IQ strangely decreases as we move from Mongoloid to Southern Caucasoid: Kazakhstan (94), Kyrgyzstan (90), other three Stans (87), Iran (84).

    I think Central Asian underdevelopment (Kazakh/Kirgiz) has alot to do with socio-cultural/geographic vs HBD/genetic factors.

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  • @Jim
    "I’m pretty sure that they didn’t have real statehood at the time of their conquests of the 13th century. A real state is bigger than any man or any family. A real state cannot be split among the children of a king. It is not any man’s or any family’s property. It has large bureaucratic institutions that tend to endure in a stable fashion through many changes of leadership. It can go on functioning without anyone at the top."

    They did have a state, in a sense, because they were part of or closely connected to a bigger truly state-like entity, the Jin Dynasty (1115-1234). The Borjigin Mongols of Khan were the Menggu Shiwei and they had long been part of the civilized Liao Dynasty (907-1125) and later had intimate relations with the equally civilized Jin Dynasty. Khan was actually given the title "chautquri" (battle ruler) by the Jin Emperor Wanyan Madage. So the Mongols always had an imperial mindset.

    One day a Mongol could be alone hunting deer near Lake Baikal or chasing wild asses in the remotest part of the Gobi Desert (like a hunter-gatherer, developmentally a stage below pastoralism), a few weeks later he could be seated in the presence of the Chinese emperor (in many cases an ethnic Mongol himself as was the case with the Khitans and Tuoba) in Beijing or Chang'an (where half-Mongol Tang emperors ruled) discussing military affairs, trade relations and matters of imperial administration. This pattern can be seen all through history.

    For example (from Wikipedia) 'the Mongolic-speaking Xianbei originally formed a part of the Donghu confederation, but existed even before that time, as evidenced by a mention in the Guoyu ("晉語八" section) which states that during the reign of King Cheng of Zhou (reigned 1042-1021 BC) the Xianbei came to participate at a meeting of Zhou subject-lords at Qiyang (岐阳) (now Qishan County) but were only allowed to perform the fire ceremony under the supervision of Chu (楚), since they were not vassals by covenant (诸侯).'

    I may not know the fine details but I know that there was a succession of rather advanced empires on the Mongolian steppes starting with the Donghu (c. 1200B.C.-209B.C), Xiongnu (209B.C.-93A.D) and continuing with the Xianbei (93-234), Murong (235-670), Rouran (330-555), Turk (552-744), Uyghur (745-840), Liao (907-1125) and all these before the Mongols of Khan. These states were big and complex enough and had close enough relations with China so I would call them states. They all had a physical territory, a subject population, formalized foreign relations, an organized state bureaucracy, so I think most of the basic criteria are met.

    I'm not sure if the same 3000 year old tradition of statehood applies in Central Asia, in the Stans. It's far from China. It's true though that Iran exerted a lot of influence culturally and genetically from the Achaemenids onward. There (in Central Asia) IQ strangely decreases as we move from Mongoloid to Southern Caucasoid: Kazakhstan (94), Kyrgyzstan (90), other three Stans (87), Iran (84).

    According to DODECAD, Kyrgyz have a higher Mongoloid/East Asian component than Kazakhs (70-80% vs 60-70%).

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  • @HX (Huax)
    whoops.

    To be honest, this table is completely irrelevant, because different provinces even have different full marks…….Shanghai is at the bottom…

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  • @SP
    "Can you imagine how many African Americans could actually develop the functional ability of being able to read and write 3000 or so Chinese characters with any degree of fluency?"

    I would imagaine, if with life-time dedication and under the gunpoint, 13? 12 perhap? None of them is named Obama, surely.

    AK: This is a moderation note. Please avoid overt racism here.

    Obama’s half brother Mark Ndesandjo lives in China. http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1939695,00.html

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  • As human capital is so important for prosperity, it behoves us to know China's in detail to assess whether it will continue converging on developed countries. Until recently the best data we had were disparate IQ tests (on the basis of which Richard Lynn's latest estimate is an IQ of 105.8 in his 2012 book...
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The Zhejiang number from the 2012 PISA has once again been leaked. This time it’s 623 in math, 570 in reading, and 582 in science. Better than Shanghai. But here is the shocker from article.
    “我省组织实施PISA试测的,是省教育考试院。该院新闻发言人冯成火说,2012年的PISA测试,测试的学校和2009年的相同,抽测的是普通中学学生,也就是说没有重高参加,乡镇学校仍占80%左右,且参加抽测的主体是初三学生。”

    “The provincial Education Examination handled organization implementation of PISA test measured the province. The spokesman Feng Chenghou said, the 2012 PISA test, the same school in 2009 are tested, sampling tests are ordinary high school student, none of the key schools participated, rural and township schools still account for about 80%, and the students are mostly from the 9th grade.”

    Note: China’s compulsory education ends at 9th grade, afterwards student can choose to enter college bound high schools, career bound vocational schools, or directly into apprenticeships. The last two options has gotten a lot flak in the international media as child labor abuses. Since the sampling is mostly at 8th grade, the Zhejiang numbers are not liked to be skewed by filtration effects at 9th-10th grade divide.

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  • […] 数据来源:2009年PISA智商测试中国结果分析原文地址:Analysis Of China’s PISA 2009 Results […]

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  • […] 数据来源:2009年PISA智商测试中国结果分析原文地址:Analysis Of China’s PISA 2009 Results […]

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  • You might want to compare/contrast the China IQ map with China’s population density map. Then you might discover your 101-012 IQ estimate is low, considering China’s most densely populated costal area have average IQ of 104-108.

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  • […] of Shanghai conducted in 2009, but the results were never officially released. Here’s a summary of what leaked. In short, while the Shanghai results were likely not representative of the broad population, they […]

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  • @Anonymous
    Hi AK,
    I came across this website showing the result of 2012 Gaokao scores in 31 provinces, hope this will help!
    Note: it's not ranked by highest scores, but the highest average scores to get to a A-class university. For example, 78.53%(文科一本得分率) for the first line should mean the average score to get to A-class university art faculty is 78.5.

    http://gaokao.eol.cn/kuai_xun_3075/20120702/t20120702_802076.shtml

    From this news though, it's actually 广东GuangDong (Canton) Province eats the cake in 2012 Gaokao lol. ZheJiang ranks 9 in art, 5 in science (yeah it's still good), Shanghai is 10 in art and 16 in science (yes it IS around average).

    You mistake the numbers. They represent the cut off for admissions to a university inside the province. The more university positions in that province, the lower the score needed to get into one.

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  • @Richard Sharpe
    Note, that as Jing points out, but you seem to have elided in your table caption above, Beijing, Tianjin and Shanghai are not provinces. They are municipalities/cities.

    I tend to think that the downward mobility effect and selection caused by 2000 years (approximately) of the civil service exams has flushed a lot of alleles causing IQ lowering out of the population.

    Do you have any numbers for the variance?

    These four “municipalities” are bigger than any but a handful of states in the U.S. with populations of 28.8, 19.6, 12.9, and 23 millions.

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  • @Anonymous
    I'm not sure that your estimate of china's average is correct, as provinces with large populations seem all to have higher than 104 IQs. (70-80% of China's population). So I guess 105 is more possible than 102.

    I actually plugged into a spreadsheet and crunched the numbers using the IQ map given above and the population of each provinces of China. The IQ for China today is 105.3. Once China’s GDP rises to to the level of Hong Kong, you can probably add another 3 to 6 points to that.

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  • If you take out the reading score for China, you basically have China and Korea with essentially the same top score with IQ of 106. The reason this is reasonable is that in rural China they don’t know what is an ATM or an airbag (two questions in the 2009 PISA) where as the Koreans all know what these are. The rural Chinese (80% of the tested subjects) have a comparative disadvantage in this area.

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  • In the discussion at the previous post, in which I took exception to Ron Unz's theory of the East Asian Exception, he alerted me to so additional work on the matter he'd done as a Harvard freshman on Chinese IQ. You can read his summary of Social Darwinism and Rural China as well as Steve...
  • @Anonymous
    in my opinion, mongols and others barbarians of Siberia are mixed with eskimos
    if you see, the culture of siberians barbarians and mongols are similares of apaches indigenous, there some eskimos tribes in north and northeast of Asia, are almost impossible theys do not meet


    I heard that the IQ of mongolia is a estimated based in mean of your neighbors(Rússia and China)

    Your knowledge is worse than 5 year old child’s.

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  • @Glossy
    "There’s no serious data on them except ‘IQ and Global Inequality’ which puts Mongolian IQ at 101."

    I didn't know that. I have Lynn's "Race Differences in Intelligence" here, published in 2006. On p. 240 he says:

    "There is a further anomaly in the intelligence of the peoples of Northeast Asia concerning the IQs of the Mongols of Mongolia and the closely related Samoyeds of Northern Siberia. There are no studies of the intelligence of these peoples but their low level of cultural development and technology suggests that it is not so high as that of the East Asians of China, Japan and Korea."

    I don't own a copy of "IQ and Global Inequality." If you own one, can you quote the place that cites Mongolian IQ at 101?

    Read this: http://www.photius.com/rankings/national_iq_scores_country_ranks.html
    Low level of cultural development and technology doesnt suggest anything my friend. This depends on life circumstances and the system.

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  • As human capital is so important for prosperity, it behoves us to know China's in detail to assess whether it will continue converging on developed countries. Until recently the best data we had were disparate IQ tests (on the basis of which Richard Lynn's latest estimate is an IQ of 105.8 in his 2012 book...
  • I’m not sure that your estimate of china’s average is correct, as provinces with large populations seem all to have higher than 104 IQs. (70-80% of China’s population). So I guess 105 is more possible than 102.

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    • Replies: @Marie Arouet
    I actually plugged into a spreadsheet and crunched the numbers using the IQ map given above and the population of each provinces of China. The IQ for China today is 105.3. Once China's GDP rises to to the level of Hong Kong, you can probably add another 3 to 6 points to that.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • In the discussion at the previous post, in which I took exception to Ron Unz's theory of the East Asian Exception, he alerted me to so additional work on the matter he'd done as a Harvard freshman on Chinese IQ. You can read his summary of Social Darwinism and Rural China as well as Steve...
  • @Kiwiguy
    Peter Frost commented on Ron's unpublished paper. In respect to the differences across Japan, Korea & China, he notes:

    "Was this factor strong enough to raise the mean level of intelligence? One objection is that the Chinese civil service exam was only partially adopted by Korea and Japan. Yet mean IQ is similar in all three societies.

    This objection ignores the broader emphasis on education in all East Asian societies. China, Korea, and Japan have long been "exam cultures," even if we exclude the civil service exam. This exam grew out of values that were embedded in Confucianism and present throughout East Asia:
    .....

    Clearly, the higher mean IQs of East Asians cannot be solely or even mainly attributed to the Confucian exam culture. The main cause was the establishment of a State society, its monopoly on the use of violence, and its creation of an orderly, rules-based society. Reproductive success depended on being able to play by the rules.

    The rules, however, were formalized in the teachings of Confucius. One’s knowledge of these teachings became a proxy for one’s ability to succeed in East Asian society. More generally, it became a proxy for intellectual performance, all the more so because one had to memorize Chinese characters (a minimum of 10,000 for functional fluency) and understand an archaic form of the language. Thus, Confucian exam culture might explain some of the differences between European and East Asian intellectual performance.

    But why did this exam culture develop in East Asia and not in Europe? Greco-Roman society similarly valued study of classical literature and proficiency in archaic Greek and Latin (as opposed to the contemporary Koine Greek and Vulgar Latin). With the advent of Christianity, however, classical “pagan” literature became viewed with suspicion. Emphasis shifted toward study of the Bible, and such study usually involved entry into celibate religious orders. Insofar as academic success was linked to heritable predispositions, the overall impact of natural selection would have been negative."

    http://evoandproud.blogspot.co.nz/2011/02/east-asian-intelligence.html

    But Japanese did not take these exams. I believe Koreans did, but not Japanese. So why the high IQ there when they had not received significant immigration from Mainland China for 2,000 years and it was never as much as they got from Korea or their own aboriginal input.

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  • @charly
    North Chinese look exactly like Southern Chinese so it doesn't fuck your theory up that Shanghai is the brainy part of China. Also people speaking the language of the capitol is unheard of.

    No Southern and Northern Han Chinese don’t look exactly alike, that is false, even Chinese will say this. Northern Han tend to look more like Koreans and MOngols, and even some Turkic groups (because much of NOrthern China was controlled by these groups on and off for centuries)…and many Southern Chinese look very much like Thai and Vietnamese because Thai and Vietnamese came from SOuthern CHina and the Han migrated down there and mixed with the local “barbarians” as well as pushing many of them into Southeast Asia.

    Classic Northern Chinese look -
    Classic Southern Chinese look –

    Southerns tend to be darker and shorter with flatter wider noses and deeper set eyes…northerners the opposite.

    This reflects a genetic cline from north to south in China as well:

    http://pmsol3.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/chinese-y-chromosome-testing/

    Han men married local women where they migrated, and raised their kids as Han Chinese, which makes up most of the genetic difference.

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  • I shall make some nationalist comments here.

    Celtic Europe (The Atlantic coast from Morocco to Iceland) divided land equally between all the children. This included the English, a mixture of Germans and Celts, until 1066 when the Normans introduced primogeniture.

    The modern rise in standard of living in England began in the Eastern counties after the Black Death when age for men at marriage rose to 28 or so from 23. Women married around 22 years old rather than 20. (This is from memory – it was in the New Scientist and on some now ancient BBC history program). Basically, after a period of overpopulation when expectation of young males was low so women were indifferent, some young males had access to land and were more valuable for marriage than others. We can expect diligence, impulsivity and intelligence to give advantages in a struggle for land. In those days and for much longer, the labouring poor reproduced less successfully than the yeoman class (renters of a farm).

    But intelligence as the key to human achievement is hokum in more ways than I am going to list here. As the Cookie Test demonstrated, other factors are at least as important in terms of achievement. Managed impulsivity is one (do smokers have lower IQ’s – no, they are less able to control impulses). Motivation is another. Only a few highly intelligent, diligent and motivated people are required to make the big advances.

    Other thoughts.
    European Neolithic and Bronze ages – very little warfare in the archaeological record. So, not much coercion, selection depends on personal choices.
    European Iron Age to Black Death – armed warrior aristocracy makes the social decisions. So, aristocratic genes dispersed into population in preference to slave/serf class males who died unmarried.
    Basic English has a German vocabulary with very few Celtic words but in recent years it has been observed that almost all Grammatical variations from German involving verbs are derived from early Welsh. So English doesn’t just have a huge vocabulary. It has multiple sources of grammar. Very tough for someone who speaks a more logically consistent language.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Kiwiguy
    Peter Frost commented on Ron's unpublished paper. In respect to the differences across Japan, Korea & China, he notes:

    "Was this factor strong enough to raise the mean level of intelligence? One objection is that the Chinese civil service exam was only partially adopted by Korea and Japan. Yet mean IQ is similar in all three societies.

    This objection ignores the broader emphasis on education in all East Asian societies. China, Korea, and Japan have long been "exam cultures," even if we exclude the civil service exam. This exam grew out of values that were embedded in Confucianism and present throughout East Asia:
    .....

    Clearly, the higher mean IQs of East Asians cannot be solely or even mainly attributed to the Confucian exam culture. The main cause was the establishment of a State society, its monopoly on the use of violence, and its creation of an orderly, rules-based society. Reproductive success depended on being able to play by the rules.

    The rules, however, were formalized in the teachings of Confucius. One’s knowledge of these teachings became a proxy for one’s ability to succeed in East Asian society. More generally, it became a proxy for intellectual performance, all the more so because one had to memorize Chinese characters (a minimum of 10,000 for functional fluency) and understand an archaic form of the language. Thus, Confucian exam culture might explain some of the differences between European and East Asian intellectual performance.

    But why did this exam culture develop in East Asia and not in Europe? Greco-Roman society similarly valued study of classical literature and proficiency in archaic Greek and Latin (as opposed to the contemporary Koine Greek and Vulgar Latin). With the advent of Christianity, however, classical “pagan” literature became viewed with suspicion. Emphasis shifted toward study of the Bible, and such study usually involved entry into celibate religious orders. Insofar as academic success was linked to heritable predispositions, the overall impact of natural selection would have been negative."

    http://evoandproud.blogspot.co.nz/2011/02/east-asian-intelligence.html

    SeekiYan said: According to the statistics of Chinese characters used in newspapers, 90% of the daily used Chinese characters are around 600 only. 97% of the daily used characters are up to 2000 characters. That means if you know about 600 characters you can read and thoroughly understand the newspaper written in Chinese already.
    My own experience in studying English: After studying English for more then ten years and sit for the SAT, in the analogy session, they give a pair of words and then required me to choose the answers from four other pairs of words in the questions. I don’t know any one of it out the ten vocabulary, not in only one question, but in most of the questions. The English speaking people always proud of their rich in vocabulary, but in fact this is a nightmare for a foreigner of different culture to learn their language. After forty years of using English, I still cannot grasp the simple (as native English speaking people say) grammar in English.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    in my opinion, mongols and others barbarians of Siberia are mixed with eskimos
    if you see, the culture of siberians barbarians and mongols are similares of apaches indigenous, there some eskimos tribes in north and northeast of Asia, are almost impossible theys do not meet

    I heard that the IQ of mongolia is a estimated based in mean of your neighbors(Rússia and China)

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    • Replies: @selly7
    Your knowledge is worse than 5 year old child's.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • As human capital is so important for prosperity, it behoves us to know China's in detail to assess whether it will continue converging on developed countries. Until recently the best data we had were disparate IQ tests (on the basis of which Richard Lynn's latest estimate is an IQ of 105.8 in his 2012 book...
  • [...] one by Steve Sailer, in terms of quality, reliability of info and depth/accuracy of the analysis: Analysis Of China’s PISA 2009 Results | Anatoly Karlin Another related piece of AK is also quite informative: The Evolution Of Chinese IQ | Anatoly [...]

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  • Here is data from the Cognitive Abilities Test for UK students in 2009/10 via Ambiguous. Some interesting things to take away here: (1) The sample is very large. Verbal IQ has the highest correlation with academic performance in most subjects, followed by Quantitative IQ, and then Non-Verbal Reasoning (recognizing patterns and such, I imagine). (2)...
  • @Amibiguous
    Well if you do go by all "non-white" you get this:

    http://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/ca/digitalAssets/186456_AS_and_A_Level_Choice_Factsheet_3.pdf

    Nevermind. go here for A level choice by ethnic group.

    http://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/ca/digitalAssets/181124_Statistics_Report_Series_No.11.pdf

    Page 30:

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  • @prefers2banon
    for the stats: 3% of whites have a science degree, 1.5% of black Caribbeans, 7.8% of Chinese.

    It's rather disingenuous of you to compare whites with minorities: Chinese tend to perform better than whites at high levels, Indian indians (selective immigration) better or the same, Africans (mostly selective immigration) somewhat worse, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis a lot worse, and Caribbeans worst of all.

    Black African, Indian and Chinese students are over-represented in science, whereas Black Caribbean (especially men) and Bangladeshi (especially women) students are under-represented. (google royal society report)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Amibiguous
    Nevermind. go here for A level choice by ethnic group.

    http://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/ca/digitalAssets/181124_Statistics_Report_Series_No.11.pdf

    Page 30:

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @prefers2banon
    for the stats: 3% of whites have a science degree, 1.5% of black Caribbeans, 7.8% of Chinese.

    It's rather disingenuous of you to compare whites with minorities: Chinese tend to perform better than whites at high levels, Indian indians (selective immigration) better or the same, Africans (mostly selective immigration) somewhat worse, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis a lot worse, and Caribbeans worst of all.

    Black African, Indian and Chinese students are over-represented in science, whereas Black Caribbean (especially men) and Bangladeshi (especially women) students are under-represented. (google royal society report)

    I’m looking at your second link for the proportion getting a good degree class:

    White: 66%
    Other Asian: 59%
    Bangladeshi: 53%
    Chinese: 53%
    Indian 53%
    Pakistani 49%
    Black Caribbean: 45%
    Black African 43%

    So Chinese aren’t doing nearly so well as whites.

    After controlling for A level results, degree subject and other factors:

    White: 68%
    Other Asian: 62%
    Bangladeshi: 63%
    Chinese: 54%
    Indian: 61%
    Pakistani 62%
    Black Caribbean 55%
    Black African: 54%

    The South Asian – White gap is much less but the Chinese – White gap has barely changed. What can explain this?

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  • more from uk government data

    Whites 38% get an A level of some kind, and 19% get a STEM A Level, and 4% get 3 or more STEM A levels
    Caribbeans 28% get an A level of some kind, and 9% get a STEM A level, and <1% get 3 or more STEM A levels

    As we up the level of difficulty from: "any A level < STEM A level < several STEM" the ratio of white over-performance relative to Caribbeans goes from 1.3, to 2.1, to 4.4.

    There is no doubt that British Whites perform better at science than Black Caribbeans in Uk or that Chinese perform better than British Whites. The harder the exams are, the greater the difference in black versus white performance. What we don't know or the reasons.

    A smaller proportion of the Caribbean population is studying science than the proportion of the white population studying science. Yet 13.4 of Whites get a first class degree in STEM compared to 2.2 of Caribbeans. Case closed.

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  • @prefers2banon
    not true. Chinese and Indians (who do better than whites) are more likely to do STEM (because they want to do medicine, law and engineering). Blacks who do worse than whites tend to do easy A levels like sports and media. So higher iq is associated with harder A levels and better results duh.

    for the stats: 3% of whites have a science degree, 1.5% of black Caribbeans, 7.8% of Chinese.

    It’s rather disingenuous of you to compare whites with minorities: Chinese tend to perform better than whites at high levels, Indian indians (selective immigration) better or the same, Africans (mostly selective immigration) somewhat worse, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis a lot worse, and Caribbeans worst of all.

    Black African, Indian and Chinese students are over-represented in science, whereas Black Caribbean (especially men) and Bangladeshi (especially women) students are under-represented. (google royal society report)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Amibiguous
    I'm looking at your second link for the proportion getting a good degree class:

    White: 66%
    Other Asian: 59%
    Bangladeshi: 53%
    Chinese: 53%
    Indian 53%
    Pakistani 49%
    Black Caribbean: 45%
    Black African 43%

    So Chinese aren't doing nearly so well as whites.

    After controlling for A level results, degree subject and other factors:

    White: 68%
    Other Asian: 62%
    Bangladeshi: 63%
    Chinese: 54%
    Indian: 61%
    Pakistani 62%
    Black Caribbean 55%
    Black African: 54%

    The South Asian - White gap is much less but the Chinese - White gap has barely changed. What can explain this?

    , @Amibiguous
    Well if you do go by all "non-white" you get this:

    http://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/ca/digitalAssets/186456_AS_and_A_Level_Choice_Factsheet_3.pdf

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @prefers2banon
    not true. Chinese and Indians (who do better than whites) are more likely to do STEM (because they want to do medicine, law and engineering). Blacks who do worse than whites tend to do easy A levels like sports and media. So higher iq is associated with harder A levels and better results duh.

    Its true that 38% of whites are in higher education and 61% of blacks. Correcting for participation in education: 4% of the white population get a first class degree and 2% of the black. Indian and Chinese — pretty similar to white

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  • @Amibiguous
    For God's sake, if you'd looked into this in any detail at all you'd know white A level candidates are a select group, AND you need to take into account that ethnic groups don't have the same participation rates for different subjects. Whites are more likely to do easier A levels while minorities are more likely to do harder ones.

    At university it's a similar difference. Only 38% of whites go compared to 60% of minorities, and they're more likely to do harder courses such as STEM.

    So actually it's very clear why this should be.

    not true. Chinese and Indians (who do better than whites) are more likely to do STEM (because they want to do medicine, law and engineering). Blacks who do worse than whites tend to do easy A levels like sports and media. So higher iq is associated with harder A levels and better results duh.

    Read More
    • Replies: @prefers2banon
    Its true that 38% of whites are in higher education and 61% of blacks. Correcting for participation in education: 4% of the white population get a first class degree and 2% of the black. Indian and Chinese -- pretty similar to white
    , @prefers2banon
    for the stats: 3% of whites have a science degree, 1.5% of black Caribbeans, 7.8% of Chinese.

    It's rather disingenuous of you to compare whites with minorities: Chinese tend to perform better than whites at high levels, Indian indians (selective immigration) better or the same, Africans (mostly selective immigration) somewhat worse, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis a lot worse, and Caribbeans worst of all.

    Black African, Indian and Chinese students are over-represented in science, whereas Black Caribbean (especially men) and Bangladeshi (especially women) students are under-represented. (google royal society report)

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Amibiguous
    Figure 4 in your second link actually controls for some of the factors I mentioned like different entry qualifications and subject choice.

    yes one of the factors they control for is “A level route to university” versus “dodgy-non-g-loaded” entry route. Sure once they control for that the difference goes down. They are controlling for intelligence.

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  • @prefers2banon
    And some more:
    this time the total score achieved in A levels. The top rank is >360 points. This is achieved by:
    Chinese 32%
    White 28%
    Indian 20%
    Pakistan 11%
    Black 9%

    http://www.hefce.ac.uk/pubs/year/2010/201013/

    The data for the first class degree (summa laude) comes from https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/eOrderingDownload/RW92.pdf

    Figure 4 in your second link actually controls for some of the factors I mentioned like different entry qualifications and subject choice.

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    • Replies: @prefers2banon
    yes one of the factors they control for is "A level route to university" versus "dodgy-non-g-loaded" entry route. Sure once they control for that the difference goes down. They are controlling for intelligence.
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  • @prefers2banon
    If we up the age and difficulty of exams differences get more marked

    The A level is taken at around 18. Around one third of students take A levels: on average 3. The highest grade is A - around 25% of students achieve this. Fewer achieve 3 As or more.
    8% of whites achieve at least 3 As but only 1% of blacks

    11% of white takers get a first class degree but only 3% of Blacks.

    Chinese and Indian students perform above British White at GCSE but below at first class degree (9% and 7% respectively).

    It is not clear why this should be, although one explanation is innate difference

    For God’s sake, if you’d looked into this in any detail at all you’d know white A level candidates are a select group, AND you need to take into account that ethnic groups don’t have the same participation rates for different subjects. Whites are more likely to do easier A levels while minorities are more likely to do harder ones.

    At university it’s a similar difference. Only 38% of whites go compared to 60% of minorities, and they’re more likely to do harder courses such as STEM.

    So actually it’s very clear why this should be.

    Read More
    • Replies: @prefers2banon
    not true. Chinese and Indians (who do better than whites) are more likely to do STEM (because they want to do medicine, law and engineering). Blacks who do worse than whites tend to do easy A levels like sports and media. So higher iq is associated with harder A levels and better results duh.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @prefers2banon
    The percentage of Black and white pupils achieving five or more A* to C grades in GCSE and equivalent by gender 2006 (sources DfES,2005,2006a)

    Caribbean boys 36%
    African boys 43%
    White boys 53%

    Caribbean girls 52%
    African girls 56%
    White girls 62%

    Note large differences between Caribbean blacks (not selected for intelligence); African blacks (around half from parents who selectively immigrated with much higher iq than typical Africans) and white kids.

    Note difference between boys and girls is roughly the same as whites and blacks. This shows how performance is loaded to behaviour rather than g.

    I don't see much evidence for black and white convergence in uk

    If selection played such a large role you’d expect to see Africans having higher IQs than Caribbeans, they don’t. You’d also expect to see Chinese having higher IQs than they do in other developed countries instead they score just the same.

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  • And some more:
    this time the total score achieved in A levels. The top rank is >360 points. This is achieved by:
    Chinese 32%
    White 28%
    Indian 20%
    Pakistan 11%
    Black 9%

    http://www.hefce.ac.uk/pubs/year/2010/201013/

    The data for the first class degree (summa laude) comes from https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/eOrderingDownload/RW92.pdf

    Read More
    • Replies: @Amibiguous
    Figure 4 in your second link actually controls for some of the factors I mentioned like different entry qualifications and subject choice.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • If we up the age and difficulty of exams differences get more marked

    The A level is taken at around 18. Around one third of students take A levels: on average 3. The highest grade is A – around 25% of students achieve this. Fewer achieve 3 As or more.
    8% of whites achieve at least 3 As but only 1% of blacks

    11% of white takers get a first class degree but only 3% of Blacks.

    Chinese and Indian students perform above British White at GCSE but below at first class degree (9% and 7% respectively).

    It is not clear why this should be, although one explanation is innate difference

    Read More
    • Replies: @Amibiguous
    For God's sake, if you'd looked into this in any detail at all you'd know white A level candidates are a select group, AND you need to take into account that ethnic groups don't have the same participation rates for different subjects. Whites are more likely to do easier A levels while minorities are more likely to do harder ones.

    At university it's a similar difference. Only 38% of whites go compared to 60% of minorities, and they're more likely to do harder courses such as STEM.

    So actually it's very clear why this should be.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • The percentage of Black and white pupils achieving five or more A* to C grades in GCSE and equivalent by gender 2006 (sources DfES,2005,2006a)

    Caribbean boys 36%
    African boys 43%
    White boys 53%

    Caribbean girls 52%
    African girls 56%
    White girls 62%

    Note large differences between Caribbean blacks (not selected for intelligence); African blacks (around half from parents who selectively immigrated with much higher iq than typical Africans) and white kids.

    Note difference between boys and girls is roughly the same as whites and blacks. This shows how performance is loaded to behaviour rather than g.

    I don’t see much evidence for black and white convergence in uk

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    • Replies: @Amibiguous
    If selection played such a large role you'd expect to see Africans having higher IQs than Caribbeans, they don't. You'd also expect to see Chinese having higher IQs than they do in other developed countries instead they score just the same.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Steven
    What I notice is mixed white & African is 100.8 (verbal), 99.6 (numerical), 99.6 (non-verbal). If the difference between whites and Africans in the sample is genetic, the mixed white/African scores should be somewhere in between. They really should be lower if the genetic hypothesis were true. But they are practically equal to the white scores, despite presumably a significant amount of African genes. I think this is definite evidence against the genetic hypothesis.

    I wonder what Chuck would say about this.

    I also notice a significant difference between Indians and Pakistanis, despite them being practically the same genetically. Indians more selected or is it Indian culture?

    I just really wish we had IQ data for all ages in Britain!

    It’s on Chuck’s site that I found this.

    “I also notice a significant difference between Indians and Pakistanis, despite them being practically the same genetically. Indians more selected or is it Indian culture?”

    Hmm I dunno, could it be… SES factors? ;)

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  • What I notice is mixed white & African is 100.8 (verbal), 99.6 (numerical), 99.6 (non-verbal). If the difference between whites and Africans in the sample is genetic, the mixed white/African scores should be somewhere in between. They really should be lower if the genetic hypothesis were true. But they are practically equal to the white scores, despite presumably a significant amount of African genes. I think this is definite evidence against the genetic hypothesis.

    I wonder what Chuck would say about this.

    I also notice a significant difference between Indians and Pakistanis, despite them being practically the same genetically. Indians more selected or is it Indian culture?

    I just really wish we had IQ data for all ages in Britain!

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    • Replies: @Amibiguous
    It's on Chuck's site that I found this.

    "I also notice a significant difference between Indians and Pakistanis, despite them being practically the same genetically. Indians more selected or is it Indian culture?"

    Hmm I dunno, could it be... SES factors? ;)

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • As human capital is so important for prosperity, it behoves us to know China's in detail to assess whether it will continue converging on developed countries. Until recently the best data we had were disparate IQ tests (on the basis of which Richard Lynn's latest estimate is an IQ of 105.8 in his 2012 book...
  • [...] century (third millennium?). maybe. certainly the chinese seem to have the requisite number of iq points — and intelligence is, of course, essential in succeeding in this world. you definitely [...]

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  • Here is data from the Cognitive Abilities Test for UK students in 2009/10 via Ambiguous. Some interesting things to take away here: (1) The sample is very large. Verbal IQ has the highest correlation with academic performance in most subjects, followed by Quantitative IQ, and then Non-Verbal Reasoning (recognizing patterns and such, I imagine). (2)...
  • @Anonymous
    Doesnt the gap between different ethnicities become greater with age? Am I missing something here?

    Not in the UK, for example Pakistanis and Bangladeshis and even Indians start out below whites at age 3, then they close the gap (or reverse it) as they get older. Pakistanis and Banglas start out WAY below everyone else.

    To say the gap between ethnicities increases as they get older kind of misses of the point. With increased age individuals and groups approach their genetic potential, (thought it still doesn’t erase the effects of environment).

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  • Doesnt the gap between different ethnicities become greater with age? Am I missing something here?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Amibiguous
    Not in the UK, for example Pakistanis and Bangladeshis and even Indians start out below whites at age 3, then they close the gap (or reverse it) as they get older. Pakistanis and Banglas start out WAY below everyone else.

    To say the gap between ethnicities increases as they get older kind of misses of the point. With increased age individuals and groups approach their genetic potential, (thought it still doesn't erase the effects of environment).

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • As human capital is so important for prosperity, it behoves us to know China's in detail to assess whether it will continue converging on developed countries. Until recently the best data we had were disparate IQ tests (on the basis of which Richard Lynn's latest estimate is an IQ of 105.8 in his 2012 book...
  • @Anonymous
    Hi AK,
    I came across this website showing the result of 2012 Gaokao scores in 31 provinces, hope this will help!
    Note: it's not ranked by highest scores, but the highest average scores to get to a A-class university. For example, 78.53%(文科一本得分率) for the first line should mean the average score to get to A-class university art faculty is 78.5.

    http://gaokao.eol.cn/kuai_xun_3075/20120702/t20120702_802076.shtml

    From this news though, it's actually 广东GuangDong (Canton) Province eats the cake in 2012 Gaokao lol. ZheJiang ranks 9 in art, 5 in science (yeah it's still good), Shanghai is 10 in art and 16 in science (yes it IS around average).

    “谈到腐败我想发表点小意见:中国的教育改革一直嚷着很凶,但是落到实处是很难的,比如外地学生要想进入清华北大这样的学校要比北京多出200分来,大家说说这是多大的差距,这个且不说。”

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  • @Anonymous
    Hi AK,
    I came across this website showing the result of 2012 Gaokao scores in 31 provinces, hope this will help!
    Note: it's not ranked by highest scores, but the highest average scores to get to a A-class university. For example, 78.53%(文科一本得分率) for the first line should mean the average score to get to A-class university art faculty is 78.5.

    http://gaokao.eol.cn/kuai_xun_3075/20120702/t20120702_802076.shtml

    From this news though, it's actually 广东GuangDong (Canton) Province eats the cake in 2012 Gaokao lol. ZheJiang ranks 9 in art, 5 in science (yeah it's still good), Shanghai is 10 in art and 16 in science (yes it IS around average).

    Thanks, but I don’t think it tells us very much. Shanghai (and Beijing, which is marked absurdly low) have a lot of good universities themselves so I would imagine that locals would have an much easier time getting in than the rest of the country?

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Thanks, SP.

    Is there any place on the Chinese web that has regional averages for Gaokao scores? I've looked for half an hour today but didn't find anything relevant.

    Maybe it's like Russia and they don't reveal regional averages. Perhaps not as according to this post and the one in the other thread gaokao scores are only given in terms of some regions being reputed as doing better than others.

    Hi AK,
    I came across this website showing the result of 2012 Gaokao scores in 31 provinces, hope this will help!
    Note: it’s not ranked by highest scores, but the highest average scores to get to a A-class university. For example, 78.53%(文科一本得分率) for the first line should mean the average score to get to A-class university art faculty is 78.5.

    http://gaokao.eol.cn/kuai_xun_3075/20120702/t20120702_802076.shtml

    From this news though, it’s actually 广东GuangDong (Canton) Province eats the cake in 2012 Gaokao lol. ZheJiang ranks 9 in art, 5 in science (yeah it’s still good), Shanghai is 10 in art and 16 in science (yes it IS around average).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Thanks, but I don't think it tells us very much. Shanghai (and Beijing, which is marked absurdly low) have a lot of good universities themselves so I would imagine that locals would have an much easier time getting in than the rest of the country?
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    "谈到腐败我想发表点小意见:中国的教育改革一直嚷着很凶,但是落到实处是很难的,比如外地学生要想进入清华北大这样的学校要比北京多出200分来,大家说说这是多大的差距,这个且不说。"
    , @Marie Arouet
    You mistake the numbers. They represent the cut off for admissions to a university inside the province. The more university positions in that province, the lower the score needed to get into one.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Here is data from the Cognitive Abilities Test for UK students in 2009/10 via Ambiguous. Some interesting things to take away here: (1) The sample is very large. Verbal IQ has the highest correlation with academic performance in most subjects, followed by Quantitative IQ, and then Non-Verbal Reasoning (recognizing patterns and such, I imagine). (2)...
  • Hi SP.

    YES it’s an IQ test with a correlation with g of 0.83, your conspiracy theories notwithstanding.;)

    “A. Mixed White & African > Indian”. I already explained about the verbal/non-verbal gap in South Asians. Indians have a slightly higher non-verbal score (average of quantitative and non-verbal) there’s hardly any difference in the non-verbal scores of these two.

    “B. Mixed White & Caribbean > Indian (Patels, Sikhs /Upper-Shudra / Vaishya) in verbal reasoning.”

    See above. And please don’t mention any of recman’s crap to me!

    “C. Mixed White & Asian (Indian, Pakistanis, etc South Asians) IQ > White British IQ on all accounts… somebody HELP!”

    It’s the more educated Asians (and whites) who are more likely to intermarry.

    “D. A group called “unclassified” got 2nd highest non verbal reasoning IQ of 109! Who are these mystically intelligent people”

    I’m not seeing this, the Unclassifieds got 99.2 and 100.5 in quantitative and non-verbal.

    “E. Black Africans and Black Caribbean top Traveller Irish on all account by almost half SD. WoW!”

    What’s so surprising about that? Irish Travellers do very badly academically.

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  • Ambiguous: LOL.. so it’s an IQ test? Given the motivation, long term policies, and means in place to have dumped down academic tests, what is the fat chance you think that the masters have left loose the mother goose of all, namely IQ test?

    Under such a scenario, we’re bound to see something that is mind boggling to say the least, such as:

    A. Mixed White & African > Indian (Patels, Sikhs /Upper-Shudra / Vaishya) in both verbal non-verbal reasoning. Yeeks?!

    B. Mixed White & Caribbean > Indian (Patels, Sikhs /Upper-Shudra / Vaishya) in verbal reasoning.

    But what’s IQ average of Mixed White & African/Caribbean in N America again?

    C. Mixed White & Asian (Indian, Pakistanis, etc South Asians) IQ > White British IQ on all accounts… somebody HELP! Indeed Mixed White & Asian is the 2nd highest IQ group after the Chinese. o-0

    D. A group called “unclassified” got 2nd highest non verbal reasoning IQ of 109! Who are these mystically intelligent people (with sample # 10x that of Chinese thus can not be Koreans and Japanese.) who are not non of above in the table?

    E. Black Africans and Black Caribbean top Traveller Irish on all account by almost half SD. WoW!

    Let alone the implications of Indian as AK wrote, actually this CAT table blows most of HBD theories out of the water.

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  • @Ambiguous
    "You assume that all GCSE tests remain the same g correlation every year, year after year"

    1) Bear in mind that CAT correlated with GCSEs taken in 2010 at 0.92. That's pretty damn high.

    2) I totally agree that grade inflation has shifted the curve to right, but it hasn't appeared to change the shape of it otherwise we wouldn't see such a strong correlation with IQ. The curve is still very steep between IQs of 90-110.

    3) CAT is an IQ test that correlates as highly as one would expect with other IQ tests like WISC.

    Anyway we've gotten far away from the topic at hand which was the CAT data itself.

    Have you proof of grade inflation?

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  • @Ambiguous
    Correlation between GCSE and g is 0.81, between SAT and g it's 0.82. Scores for the CAT and the WISC predict each other. If you think the link between CAT, g and GCSE is spurious then you need some alternative explanation.

    Of course GCSE doesn't have a correlation of 1 with g, no academic test in the world has that. Even mental tests themselves only have an average g loading of about 0.6 with about 0.8 for Ravens. So the RPM has the same g loading as the SAT and GCSEs, wonder why that is? If you have an alternative explanation other than hand waving, I'd like to hear it.

    Btw the high correlation of g and GCSEs well explains the high correlation between CAT and GCSE.

    On a related note, Flynn has a book coming out soon that claims to show a slight advantage for women in g in some countries. If the advantage exists at age 16 in the UK, that could go a long way to explaining why girls do better at GCSE, because even a small IQ advantage makes a big difference, as the graph shows.

    School test are not supposed to test IQ but scholastic excellence. To be good in school you don’t need to only have a high IQ but also pay attention and do your homework. That is why a correlation with g of 1 would be proof that the test was done wrong

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  • @SP
    Strawman? No. It's an Ironman! LOL.

    Not every GCSE has a decent cor with g; even if they do all the time, as long as it 's not 1 there's room begging for explanation.

    What's your explanation for some seemingly "contradicting" results from some diff tests around the world, eh?

    I offered no strawman but a possible, and very likely, Ironman explanation of that, namely a problem of non-standardisation of all those tests. In this case the gradual dumping down of the tests themselves, being GCSE or CAT or A levels, etc. Even though they all have high mutual correlations and each will still have some decent correlation with g after the dumping down ( of course, those tests are not what is 1+1, yet.), they prove next to nothing when dealing with theoretical gaps - surely Richard Lynn ignores it and rightly so.

    Indeed the negative impact of the UK "feel good" super easy tests has been backed up by a wealth of complains from both studs and educationists and employers out there for over a decade.

    As I've demonstrated, more often than not the result will be nothing but confusing with blurring gaps whenever a test becomes easier, and vice versus - extremely straight forward, is it not? it's pretty much the very definition of "test". Else what's it for if it's so easy that almost everyone can become a brain surgeon with perfect scores?

    Dumbing down is always the claimed reason why people score better but an increase in IQ, effort and home environment are big reasons why you should expect better result now than 20 years ago.

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  • @Ambiguous
    2) I meant to say the curve has shifted to the left. Note how the curve for getting 5 A*-As is significantly shifted to the right. Those with IQs of 100 or less are extremely unlikely to achieve this.

    Also, I didn’t mean to say we should use GCSEs as a proxy to determine IQ at age 16, just as a useful indicator, a predictor of what we would expect to find.

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  • @Ambiguous
    "You assume that all GCSE tests remain the same g correlation every year, year after year"

    1) Bear in mind that CAT correlated with GCSEs taken in 2010 at 0.92. That's pretty damn high.

    2) I totally agree that grade inflation has shifted the curve to right, but it hasn't appeared to change the shape of it otherwise we wouldn't see such a strong correlation with IQ. The curve is still very steep between IQs of 90-110.

    3) CAT is an IQ test that correlates as highly as one would expect with other IQ tests like WISC.

    Anyway we've gotten far away from the topic at hand which was the CAT data itself.

    2) I meant to say the curve has shifted to the left. Note how the curve for getting 5 A*-As is significantly shifted to the right. Those with IQs of 100 or less are extremely unlikely to achieve this.

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    • Replies: @Ambiguous
    Also, I didn't mean to say we should use GCSEs as a proxy to determine IQ at age 16, just as a useful indicator, a predictor of what we would expect to find.
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  • “You assume that all GCSE tests remain the same g correlation every year, year after year”

    1) Bear in mind that CAT correlated with GCSEs taken in 2010 at 0.92. That’s pretty damn high.

    2) I totally agree that grade inflation has shifted the curve to right, but it hasn’t appeared to change the shape of it otherwise we wouldn’t see such a strong correlation with IQ. The curve is still very steep between IQs of 90-110.

    3) CAT is an IQ test that correlates as highly as one would expect with other IQ tests like WISC.

    Anyway we’ve gotten far away from the topic at hand which was the CAT data itself.

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    • Replies: @Ambiguous
    2) I meant to say the curve has shifted to the left. Note how the curve for getting 5 A*-As is significantly shifted to the right. Those with IQs of 100 or less are extremely unlikely to achieve this.
    , @charly
    Have you proof of grade inflation?
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  • There’s an old saying that “assumptions are the mother of all screw-ups”. LOL.

    Your “facts” seem correct at the surface, but with due respect your underlying assumptions appear not exactly true:

    1. e.g. GCSE’s 0.81 cor with g is derived from the data of 2006 documented in “Intelligence and educational achievement”, Deary, I; Strand, S; Smith, P; Fernandes, C (2007), yes? You assume that all GCSE tests remain the same g correlation every year, year after year, which is likely not correct for the last decade, if the widespread criticism that gradually the tests are becoming earsier under NuLabour rule is true (which is). Ditto CAT and A level.

    2. You assume that 0.81 is be all end all to rank the exact group order of the corresponding g and to explain the some discrancies as if it were 1.0, which isn’t. 0.89 or 0.92, for instance, sounds much better to my ears.

    Surely more data (such as exact correlations of A level , GCSE and CAT to g for each year) are needed to challenge my explanation which by far remains intact. BTW, intra-relations among the three doesn’t mean anything to the topic at hand.

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  • @SP
    Strawman? No. It's an Ironman! LOL.

    Not every GCSE has a decent cor with g; even if they do all the time, as long as it 's not 1 there's room begging for explanation.

    What's your explanation for some seemingly "contradicting" results from some diff tests around the world, eh?

    I offered no strawman but a possible, and very likely, Ironman explanation of that, namely a problem of non-standardisation of all those tests. In this case the gradual dumping down of the tests themselves, being GCSE or CAT or A levels, etc. Even though they all have high mutual correlations and each will still have some decent correlation with g after the dumping down ( of course, those tests are not what is 1+1, yet.), they prove next to nothing when dealing with theoretical gaps - surely Richard Lynn ignores it and rightly so.

    Indeed the negative impact of the UK "feel good" super easy tests has been backed up by a wealth of complains from both studs and educationists and employers out there for over a decade.

    As I've demonstrated, more often than not the result will be nothing but confusing with blurring gaps whenever a test becomes easier, and vice versus - extremely straight forward, is it not? it's pretty much the very definition of "test". Else what's it for if it's so easy that almost everyone can become a brain surgeon with perfect scores?

    Correlation between GCSE and g is 0.81, between SAT and g it’s 0.82. Scores for the CAT and the WISC predict each other. If you think the link between CAT, g and GCSE is spurious then you need some alternative explanation.

    Of course GCSE doesn’t have a correlation of 1 with g, no academic test in the world has that. Even mental tests themselves only have an average g loading of about 0.6 with about 0.8 for Ravens. So the RPM has the same g loading as the SAT and GCSEs, wonder why that is? If you have an alternative explanation other than hand waving, I’d like to hear it.

    Btw the high correlation of g and GCSEs well explains the high correlation between CAT and GCSE.

    On a related note, Flynn has a book coming out soon that claims to show a slight advantage for women in g in some countries. If the advantage exists at age 16 in the UK, that could go a long way to explaining why girls do better at GCSE, because even a small IQ advantage makes a big difference, as the graph shows.

    Read More
    • Replies: @charly
    School test are not supposed to test IQ but scholastic excellence. To be good in school you don't need to only have a high IQ but also pay attention and do your homework. That is why a correlation with g of 1 would be proof that the test was done wrong
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  • @Ambiguous
    "Oh yeah? What does it mean to you even if the correlation is as high as 1, if the former is about questions of what is 2+13 and the latter is about what is 5*2+(4/2)?"

    That's a strawman of your own making, You do know the correlation between GCSE and g right? Your tiresome, cliche, rationalisations are unconvincing. There are large differences between some groups, not just ethnic groups but also SES groups. Funny how groups as different as the Chinese and Irish Travellers perform just how the CAT predicts.

    But yeah, go ahead and believe whatever you want to believe, you've obviously made your mind up already, regardless of any evidence. The silence from Lynn et al about these results is kind of deafening, they can't claim ignorance about it either.

    Strawman? No. It’s an Ironman! LOL.

    Not every GCSE has a decent cor with g; even if they do all the time, as long as it ‘s not 1 there’s room begging for explanation.

    What’s your explanation for some seemingly “contradicting” results from some diff tests around the world, eh?

    I offered no strawman but a possible, and very likely, Ironman explanation of that, namely a problem of non-standardisation of all those tests. In this case the gradual dumping down of the tests themselves, being GCSE or CAT or A levels, etc. Even though they all have high mutual correlations and each will still have some decent correlation with g after the dumping down ( of course, those tests are not what is 1+1, yet.), they prove next to nothing when dealing with theoretical gaps – surely Richard Lynn ignores it and rightly so.

    Indeed the negative impact of the UK “feel good” super easy tests has been backed up by a wealth of complains from both studs and educationists and employers out there for over a decade.

    As I’ve demonstrated, more often than not the result will be nothing but confusing with blurring gaps whenever a test becomes easier, and vice versus – extremely straight forward, is it not? it’s pretty much the very definition of “test”. Else what’s it for if it’s so easy that almost everyone can become a brain surgeon with perfect scores?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ambiguous
    Correlation between GCSE and g is 0.81, between SAT and g it's 0.82. Scores for the CAT and the WISC predict each other. If you think the link between CAT, g and GCSE is spurious then you need some alternative explanation.

    Of course GCSE doesn't have a correlation of 1 with g, no academic test in the world has that. Even mental tests themselves only have an average g loading of about 0.6 with about 0.8 for Ravens. So the RPM has the same g loading as the SAT and GCSEs, wonder why that is? If you have an alternative explanation other than hand waving, I'd like to hear it.

    Btw the high correlation of g and GCSEs well explains the high correlation between CAT and GCSE.

    On a related note, Flynn has a book coming out soon that claims to show a slight advantage for women in g in some countries. If the advantage exists at age 16 in the UK, that could go a long way to explaining why girls do better at GCSE, because even a small IQ advantage makes a big difference, as the graph shows.

    , @charly
    Dumbing down is always the claimed reason why people score better but an increase in IQ, effort and home environment are big reasons why you should expect better result now than 20 years ago.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @prosa123
    The abysmal scores for Irish Travellers have some bearing on the nature-vs-nuture debate, as unless I'm quite mistaken the Travellers are physically identical to other Irish people. One thing that comes to mind is that inbreeding may play a factor.

    Well what you have to understand is, the low score of Irish Travellers is probably down to poor environment and sporadic schooling, while that of Roma is obviously predominantly due to genetics and little to do with poverty and sporadic schooling. ;)

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  • @SP
    "So what? The correlation between CAT and GCSEs is still 0.92 regardless of how dumbed down GCSEs may have become." (ambiguous)

    Oh yeah? What does it mean to you even if the correlation is as high as 1, if the former is about questions of what is 2+13 and the latter is about what is 5*2+(4/2)?

    It means that "due to the happyness caused by the dumbed down, piggys can and will fly twice, valiantly, even without steroids". Big deal. LoL

    “Oh yeah? What does it mean to you even if the correlation is as high as 1, if the former is about questions of what is 2+13 and the latter is about what is 5*2+(4/2)?”

    That’s a strawman of your own making, You do know the correlation between GCSE and g right? Your tiresome, cliche, rationalisations are unconvincing. There are large differences between some groups, not just ethnic groups but also SES groups. Funny how groups as different as the Chinese and Irish Travellers perform just how the CAT predicts.

    But yeah, go ahead and believe whatever you want to believe, you’ve obviously made your mind up already, regardless of any evidence. The silence from Lynn et al about these results is kind of deafening, they can’t claim ignorance about it either.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SP
    Strawman? No. It's an Ironman! LOL.

    Not every GCSE has a decent cor with g; even if they do all the time, as long as it 's not 1 there's room begging for explanation.

    What's your explanation for some seemingly "contradicting" results from some diff tests around the world, eh?

    I offered no strawman but a possible, and very likely, Ironman explanation of that, namely a problem of non-standardisation of all those tests. In this case the gradual dumping down of the tests themselves, being GCSE or CAT or A levels, etc. Even though they all have high mutual correlations and each will still have some decent correlation with g after the dumping down ( of course, those tests are not what is 1+1, yet.), they prove next to nothing when dealing with theoretical gaps - surely Richard Lynn ignores it and rightly so.

    Indeed the negative impact of the UK "feel good" super easy tests has been backed up by a wealth of complains from both studs and educationists and employers out there for over a decade.

    As I've demonstrated, more often than not the result will be nothing but confusing with blurring gaps whenever a test becomes easier, and vice versus - extremely straight forward, is it not? it's pretty much the very definition of "test". Else what's it for if it's so easy that almost everyone can become a brain surgeon with perfect scores?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “So what? The correlation between CAT and GCSEs is still 0.92 regardless of how dumbed down GCSEs may have become.” (ambiguous)

    Oh yeah? What does it mean to you even if the correlation is as high as 1, if the former is about questions of what is 2+13 and the latter is about what is 5*2+(4/2)?

    It means that “due to the happyness caused by the dumbed down, piggys can and will fly twice, valiantly, even without steroids”. Big deal. LoL

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    • Replies: @Ambiguous
    "Oh yeah? What does it mean to you even if the correlation is as high as 1, if the former is about questions of what is 2+13 and the latter is about what is 5*2+(4/2)?"

    That's a strawman of your own making, You do know the correlation between GCSE and g right? Your tiresome, cliche, rationalisations are unconvincing. There are large differences between some groups, not just ethnic groups but also SES groups. Funny how groups as different as the Chinese and Irish Travellers perform just how the CAT predicts.

    But yeah, go ahead and believe whatever you want to believe, you've obviously made your mind up already, regardless of any evidence. The silence from Lynn et al about these results is kind of deafening, they can't claim ignorance about it either.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @prosa123
    The abysmal scores for Irish Travellers have some bearing on the nature-vs-nuture debate, as unless I'm quite mistaken the Travellers are physically identical to other Irish people. One thing that comes to mind is that inbreeding may play a factor.

    Inbreeding plus a possible founder effect? It was probably the left tail of the Irish population that originally formed the Traveller culture.

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  • @Ambiguous
    "On a side note, why haven’t Rushton, Lynn, etc, commented on these results?"

    Bhargava, don't hold your breath. Another blogger approached Lynn et al for their comment on this, and he got nothing back. Also note the relatively high scores for all Black groups, the difference is just 0.5 SD below whites which probably reduces by age 16.

    I can’t help but suspect that they deliberately ignore contrary evidence…..I mean, these results were done on a MASSIVE data set and are undeniably a representative sample. Perhaps the HBD forum needs to make a larger splash with this dataset to get their attention.

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  • @prosa123
    If I'm not mistaken, the "Chinese" category includes other East Asians such as Koreans and Japanese.

    No, they just go in the “Other Ethnic Group” category.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_ethnicity_in_the_United_Kingdom

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  • @Bhargava
    This is a bit bizarre.....South Asians seem to be performing at about the European mean in Britain yet the claim by Richard Lynn is that they have an IQ of 92. The CAT seems to indicate an IQ in the high 90's at least. Judging by the overall results, the CAT seems to be of a representative sample. I don't know who to believe anymore: Richard Lynn and his colleagues, or this result. On a side note, why haven't Rushton, Lynn, etc, commented on these results? They seem to be of theory shattering proportions.

    “On a side note, why haven’t Rushton, Lynn, etc, commented on these results?”

    Bhargava, don’t hold your breath. Another blogger approached Lynn et al for their comment on this, and he got nothing back. Also note the relatively high scores for all Black groups, the difference is just 0.5 SD below whites which probably reduces by age 16.

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    • Replies: @Bhargava
    I can't help but suspect that they deliberately ignore contrary evidence.....I mean, these results were done on a MASSIVE data set and are undeniably a representative sample. Perhaps the HBD forum needs to make a larger splash with this dataset to get their attention.
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  • Oh great, recman again. The non-verbal/quantitative gap between Indians and Banglas/Pakistanis is 4 points for Banglas and 6 points for Pakistanis. I’ve no idea how you got 10 points from that. Nor is there is much of a reason to assume that gap is all or mostly genetic in origin. You also have no data concerning “caste” in British Indians, because no such data exists.

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  • The UK Indian diaspora is about 80% from mid-level castes, 10% from upper castes and 10% from lower castes

    The ceiling for the lower 40% is definitely no more than 90

    Lower 40% ceiling = 85
    Mid 40% ceiling = 95
    Upper 20% ceiling = 105

    Based on UK results, there is a clear 10 IQ gap between muslims and Hindus / Sikhs

    There are 3 clear levels of reservation quota / affirmative action in India, due to a persistent huge gap between each level

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  • This is a bit bizarre…..South Asians seem to be performing at about the European mean in Britain yet the claim by Richard Lynn is that they have an IQ of 92. The CAT seems to indicate an IQ in the high 90′s at least. Judging by the overall results, the CAT seems to be of a representative sample. I don’t know who to believe anymore: Richard Lynn and his colleagues, or this result. On a side note, why haven’t Rushton, Lynn, etc, commented on these results? They seem to be of theory shattering proportions.

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    • Replies: @Ambiguous
    "On a side note, why haven’t Rushton, Lynn, etc, commented on these results?"

    Bhargava, don't hold your breath. Another blogger approached Lynn et al for their comment on this, and he got nothing back. Also note the relatively high scores for all Black groups, the difference is just 0.5 SD below whites which probably reduces by age 16.

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  • prosa123 [AKA "ironrailsironweights"] says: • Website

    The abysmal scores for Irish Travellers have some bearing on the nature-vs-nuture debate, as unless I’m quite mistaken the Travellers are physically identical to other Irish people. One thing that comes to mind is that inbreeding may play a factor.

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    • Replies: @anon666
    Inbreeding plus a possible founder effect? It was probably the left tail of the Irish population that originally formed the Traveller culture.
    , @Ambiguous
    Well what you have to understand is, the low score of Irish Travellers is probably down to poor environment and sporadic schooling, while that of Roma is obviously predominantly due to genetics and little to do with poverty and sporadic schooling. ;)
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  • prosa123 [AKA "ironrailsironweights"] says: • Website
    @Ambiguous
    The largest group of "Other Asian" are Sri Lankans, there are probably some Nepalis and Afghans among them too. In Britain "Asian" has always primarily meant South Asian.

    From wiki:

    "South Asians who marked "Other Asian" as an ethnic group and then wrote in their specific ethnic group were mostly (23%) of Sri Lankan origin. This was followed by fill-ins of Middle Eastern (9%) origin. Due to a growing sense of affiliation with Britain, many third generation South Asians chose to not mark "Asian or British Asian" and instead marked "British Asian" in the "Other Asian" write in section."

    If I’m not mistaken, the “Chinese” category includes other East Asians such as Koreans and Japanese.

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    • Replies: @Ambiguous
    No, they just go in the "Other Ethnic Group" category.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_ethnicity_in_the_United_Kingdom

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  • @Ambiguous
    Uh yeah, you did notice a separate ethnicity in the table for Mixed White and Black Caribbean didn't you?

    You mean who’s number is almost the same size as Black Caribbean.

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  • @charly
    People in the Olympics aren't 11 but much older. There are also a lot of athletes that have been re-flagged to British. For 30 year old it is something like a not so small minority but now for Caribbean babies probably a majority have a white parent.

    Uh yeah, you did notice a separate ethnicity in the table for Mixed White and Black Caribbean didn’t you?

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    • Replies: @charly
    You mean who's number is almost the same size as Black Caribbean.
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  • @Ambiguous
    "To what extent are Caribbean Blacks admixed with Whites?"

    I don't have any real data for you off the top of my head, but they look considerably less mixed than US Blacks. Watching the London Olympics the Black Caribbeans looked a lot blacker than the US Blacks.

    "(African immigrants to the US are the most credentialed immigrant group and thus have IQ’s well above the African norm, and I assume to a certain extent this is the case in the UK also; logically, their children who take the CAT will have have lower genetic IQ’s)."

    African immigrants to the UK are a heterogeneous bunch, some are educated like many Africans from Britain's old colonies, while some of them are Somali refugees who are even more disadvantaged than Bangladeshis. On average they're somewhat more likely to have degrees than natives do. In any case, the CAT scores of the children seem no different to Black Caribbeans. Btw even Somalis who came over as refugees only score about 0;5 SD below whites in measures of academic achievement.

    People in the Olympics aren’t 11 but much older. There are also a lot of athletes that have been re-flagged to British. For 30 year old it is something like a not so small minority but now for Caribbean babies probably a majority have a white parent.

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    • Replies: @Ambiguous
    Uh yeah, you did notice a separate ethnicity in the table for Mixed White and Black Caribbean didn't you?
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  • [q]. Seems like a very fast rate of population replacement.[/q]

    Not necessarily. In the last decade and a half it has become much more easier for 25 year old Western Europeans to work and live in Britain. The same is true for British in Western Europe. I wouldn’t call that replacement but mixing. Also immigrants and British are much more likely to get children with each other which also depresses the number of “pure” British whites

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  • @SP
    "If they’ve been dumbed down, they’ve been dumbed down equally for everyone it seems. "

    e.g. For 2+13= 15 type test questions, the smartest guy in the class could make several typos and ended up as the 2nd place or 3rd, while a not too bright guy could get em all correct and top the list, even though generally speaking we more or less still can identify the big picture. This is much more unlikely or almost impossible the harder the tests are.

    Yes, on and off I do live in the UK during weekdays.

    So what? The correlation between CAT and GCSEs is still 0.92 regardless of how dumbed down GCSEs may have become.

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  • @SP
    "If they’ve been dumbed down, they’ve been dumbed down equally for everyone it seems. "

    e.g. For 2+13= 15 type test questions, the smartest guy in the class could make several typos and ended up as the 2nd place or 3rd, while a not too bright guy could get em all correct and top the list, even though generally speaking we more or less still can identify the big picture. This is much more unlikely or almost impossible the harder the tests are.

    Yes, on and off I do live in the UK during weekdays.

    To sum up:

    The easier a test is, the more blurring/confusing the gaps are (as we are witnessing here), amongst the brightest and the lesser ones. When a test is eventually dumbed down to what is 1+1, there will be no gap at all among everyone – everyone is the same thus.

    Easy tests, by default, disproportionably discriminate the brightest sections.

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  • @Ambiguous
    The correlation between CAT scores at age 11 and a group getting 5 good GCSEs including Maths and English is 0.92. Even a modest difference of 5 points in CAT makes a big difference in the proportion of that group getting 5 good GCSEs. Chinese and Irish Travellers perform just as you would expect in GCSEs. If they've been dumbed down, they've been dumbed down equally for everyone it seems.

    "and in some cases such as the ones btw the Whites and varies South Asian groups are just a bit bizarre"

    I don't see what's so bizarre about it. Do you live in the UK?

    "Therefore IQs derived from the UK tests (particularly in teh last decade) could sometimes be very misleading"

    Are you saying the CAT is misleading? Or predicting IQs from GCSE results is misleading? As I said the two correlate very highly indeed.

    “If they’ve been dumbed down, they’ve been dumbed down equally for everyone it seems. ”

    e.g. For 2+13= 15 type test questions, the smartest guy in the class could make several typos and ended up as the 2nd place or 3rd, while a not too bright guy could get em all correct and top the list, even though generally speaking we more or less still can identify the big picture. This is much more unlikely or almost impossible the harder the tests are.

    Yes, on and off I do live in the UK during weekdays.

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    • Replies: @SP
    To sum up:

    The easier a test is, the more blurring/confusing the gaps are (as we are witnessing here), amongst the brightest and the lesser ones. When a test is eventually dumbed down to what is 1+1, there will be no gap at all among everyone – everyone is the same thus.

    Easy tests, by default, disproportionably discriminate the brightest sections.

    , @Ambiguous
    So what? The correlation between CAT and GCSEs is still 0.92 regardless of how dumbed down GCSEs may have become.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SP
    e.g. The Malaysian kid who got robbed and beaten in the London Riot last year is an ethnic Chinese. Which category does he mark if not "Other Asian"?

    I think ethnic Chinese know what their ethnicity is, whatever country they’re from. There is a separate Chinese category after all.

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  • @Ron Unz
    Those Q and NV Chinese scores are simply astonishing---112 and almost 110. However, the numbers are tiny, so maybe they tend to be from elite professional immigrant backgrounds, like businessmen or engineers.

    I'll admit I'm also a little surprised that all the students with any non-white ancestry amount to only about 13% of the total. To hear all the WNs complain on blogsites, you'd think they'd be over 30% of the younger age cohorts.

    The Chinese mean score of 107.5 is pretty much exactly what they get in developed places like HK and SIngapore. Nothing surprising about it.

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  • @SP
    Tests have become easier over the years to satisfy the political dogma of “everyone has the same potential”. If the US has been doing it by throwing in massive $$$ primarily , the UK’s main method have been dumbing down tests.

    The quality of the UK exams such as GCSE, A levels etc ( just look at the stunning % that got straight A’s last year) is highly questionable for the last decade, I suspect, which could partially explain some of abnormalities. Even though under such a dumbed down system one still can more or less identify the smart and the less smart, the gaps have become blurring (one step closer to “everyone is the same” nonetheless) and in some cases such as the ones btw the Whites and varies South Asian groups are just a bit bizarre, at least to me, even considering the destructive impact of yob culture. Therefore IQs derived from the UK tests (particularly in teh last decade) could sometimes be very misleading.

    The correlation between CAT scores at age 11 and a group getting 5 good GCSEs including Maths and English is 0.92. Even a modest difference of 5 points in CAT makes a big difference in the proportion of that group getting 5 good GCSEs. Chinese and Irish Travellers perform just as you would expect in GCSEs. If they’ve been dumbed down, they’ve been dumbed down equally for everyone it seems.

    “and in some cases such as the ones btw the Whites and varies South Asian groups are just a bit bizarre”

    I don’t see what’s so bizarre about it. Do you live in the UK?

    “Therefore IQs derived from the UK tests (particularly in teh last decade) could sometimes be very misleading”

    Are you saying the CAT is misleading? Or predicting IQs from GCSE results is misleading? As I said the two correlate very highly indeed.

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    • Replies: @SP
    "If they’ve been dumbed down, they’ve been dumbed down equally for everyone it seems. "

    e.g. For 2+13= 15 type test questions, the smartest guy in the class could make several typos and ended up as the 2nd place or 3rd, while a not too bright guy could get em all correct and top the list, even though generally speaking we more or less still can identify the big picture. This is much more unlikely or almost impossible the harder the tests are.

    Yes, on and off I do live in the UK during weekdays.

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  • @Ambiguous
    "To what extent are Caribbean Blacks admixed with Whites?"

    I don't have any real data for you off the top of my head, but they look considerably less mixed than US Blacks. Watching the London Olympics the Black Caribbeans looked a lot blacker than the US Blacks.

    "(African immigrants to the US are the most credentialed immigrant group and thus have IQ’s well above the African norm, and I assume to a certain extent this is the case in the UK also; logically, their children who take the CAT will have have lower genetic IQ’s)."

    African immigrants to the UK are a heterogeneous bunch, some are educated like many Africans from Britain's old colonies, while some of them are Somali refugees who are even more disadvantaged than Bangladeshis. On average they're somewhat more likely to have degrees than natives do. In any case, the CAT scores of the children seem no different to Black Caribbeans. Btw even Somalis who came over as refugees only score about 0;5 SD below whites in measures of academic achievement.

    “Indians do almost as well as Whites, although the structure of their cognitive abilities are a bit different: About 4 points lower than Whites in Verbal”

    That’s almost certainly down to some Indian’s lack of English skills, though it’s not as big as the gap for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. Look at the scores for EAL versus non-EAL, there’s a substantial gap between verbal and non-verbal scores for the EAL group. 95% and 99% of Pakistanis and Banglas are EAL, though even that doesn’t tell the whole story about their English skills because there’s a lot of variation in English skills among EAL learners.

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  • @Ambiguous
    The largest group of "Other Asian" are Sri Lankans, there are probably some Nepalis and Afghans among them too. In Britain "Asian" has always primarily meant South Asian.

    From wiki:

    "South Asians who marked "Other Asian" as an ethnic group and then wrote in their specific ethnic group were mostly (23%) of Sri Lankan origin. This was followed by fill-ins of Middle Eastern (9%) origin. Due to a growing sense of affiliation with Britain, many third generation South Asians chose to not mark "Asian or British Asian" and instead marked "British Asian" in the "Other Asian" write in section."

    e.g. The Malaysian kid who got robbed and beaten in the London Riot last year is an ethnic Chinese. Which category does he mark if not “Other Asian”?

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    • Replies: @Ambiguous
    I think ethnic Chinese know what their ethnicity is, whatever country they're from. There is a separate Chinese category after all.
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  • @Ambiguous
    The CAT scores for groups at age 11 correlate very highly with the percentage of that group gaining 5 good GCSEs including English and Maths. I got a correlation of 0.92 for all groups in the above study. Some minority groups do significantly better than predicted though, my not so tentative prediction for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis is that their cognitive ability continued to rise relative to whites throughout their secondary schooling so that at age 16 the gap is trivial to non-existent. Maybe that of Indians rises too I'm not sure. Chinese do as well as expected though.

    Tests have become easier over the years to satisfy the political dogma of “everyone has the same potential”. If the US has been doing it by throwing in massive $$$ primarily , the UK’s main method have been dumbing down tests.

    The quality of the UK exams such as GCSE, A levels etc ( just look at the stunning % that got straight A’s last year) is highly questionable for the last decade, I suspect, which could partially explain some of abnormalities. Even though under such a dumbed down system one still can more or less identify the smart and the less smart, the gaps have become blurring (one step closer to “everyone is the same” nonetheless) and in some cases such as the ones btw the Whites and varies South Asian groups are just a bit bizarre, at least to me, even considering the destructive impact of yob culture. Therefore IQs derived from the UK tests (particularly in teh last decade) could sometimes be very misleading.

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    • Replies: @Ambiguous
    The correlation between CAT scores at age 11 and a group getting 5 good GCSEs including Maths and English is 0.92. Even a modest difference of 5 points in CAT makes a big difference in the proportion of that group getting 5 good GCSEs. Chinese and Irish Travellers perform just as you would expect in GCSEs. If they've been dumbed down, they've been dumbed down equally for everyone it seems.

    "and in some cases such as the ones btw the Whites and varies South Asian groups are just a bit bizarre"

    I don't see what's so bizarre about it. Do you live in the UK?

    "Therefore IQs derived from the UK tests (particularly in teh last decade) could sometimes be very misleading"

    Are you saying the CAT is misleading? Or predicting IQs from GCSE results is misleading? As I said the two correlate very highly indeed.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    Some groups presumably take IQ tests more seriously than others. :)

    But we're talking of the CAT here, not GCSE's.

    The CAT scores for groups at age 11 correlate very highly with the percentage of that group gaining 5 good GCSEs including English and Maths. I got a correlation of 0.92 for all groups in the above study. Some minority groups do significantly better than predicted though, my not so tentative prediction for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis is that their cognitive ability continued to rise relative to whites throughout their secondary schooling so that at age 16 the gap is trivial to non-existent. Maybe that of Indians rises too I’m not sure. Chinese do as well as expected though.

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    • Replies: @SP
    Tests have become easier over the years to satisfy the political dogma of “everyone has the same potential”. If the US has been doing it by throwing in massive $$$ primarily , the UK’s main method have been dumbing down tests.

    The quality of the UK exams such as GCSE, A levels etc ( just look at the stunning % that got straight A’s last year) is highly questionable for the last decade, I suspect, which could partially explain some of abnormalities. Even though under such a dumbed down system one still can more or less identify the smart and the less smart, the gaps have become blurring (one step closer to “everyone is the same” nonetheless) and in some cases such as the ones btw the Whites and varies South Asian groups are just a bit bizarre, at least to me, even considering the destructive impact of yob culture. Therefore IQs derived from the UK tests (particularly in teh last decade) could sometimes be very misleading.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “To what extent are Caribbean Blacks admixed with Whites?”

    I don’t have any real data for you off the top of my head, but they look considerably less mixed than US Blacks. Watching the London Olympics the Black Caribbeans looked a lot blacker than the US Blacks.

    “(African immigrants to the US are the most credentialed immigrant group and thus have IQ’s well above the African norm, and I assume to a certain extent this is the case in the UK also; logically, their children who take the CAT will have have lower genetic IQ’s).”

    African immigrants to the UK are a heterogeneous bunch, some are educated like many Africans from Britain’s old colonies, while some of them are Somali refugees who are even more disadvantaged than Bangladeshis. On average they’re somewhat more likely to have degrees than natives do. In any case, the CAT scores of the children seem no different to Black Caribbeans. Btw even Somalis who came over as refugees only score about 0;5 SD below whites in measures of academic achievement.

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    • Replies: @Ambiguous
    "Indians do almost as well as Whites, although the structure of their cognitive abilities are a bit different: About 4 points lower than Whites in Verbal"

    That's almost certainly down to some Indian's lack of English skills, though it's not as big as the gap for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. Look at the scores for EAL versus non-EAL, there's a substantial gap between verbal and non-verbal scores for the EAL group. 95% and 99% of Pakistanis and Banglas are EAL, though even that doesn't tell the whole story about their English skills because there's a lot of variation in English skills among EAL learners.

    , @charly
    People in the Olympics aren't 11 but much older. There are also a lot of athletes that have been re-flagged to British. For 30 year old it is something like a not so small minority but now for Caribbean babies probably a majority have a white parent.
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  • @SP
    "Any Other Asian" (865) Category : Vienamese, Laos, Malaysians(Malays and ethnic Chinese)...?

    The largest group of “Other Asian” are Sri Lankans, there are probably some Nepalis and Afghans among them too. In Britain “Asian” has always primarily meant South Asian.

    From wiki:

    “South Asians who marked “Other Asian” as an ethnic group and then wrote in their specific ethnic group were mostly (23%) of Sri Lankan origin. This was followed by fill-ins of Middle Eastern (9%) origin. Due to a growing sense of affiliation with Britain, many third generation South Asians chose to not mark “Asian or British Asian” and instead marked “British Asian” in the “Other Asian” write in section.”

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    • Replies: @SP
    e.g. The Malaysian kid who got robbed and beaten in the London Riot last year is an ethnic Chinese. Which category does he mark if not "Other Asian"?
    , @prosa123
    If I'm not mistaken, the "Chinese" category includes other East Asians such as Koreans and Japanese.
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  • @Eric
    The test was carried out to test 7th graders(12/13 yo), and IQ/Cognitive abilities gap between groups get larger as people age (Gradual gap appearance). If the test were carried out for younger students, the gaps between groups will become narrower still.

    “IQ/Cognitive abilities gap between groups get larger as people age”

    Bangladeshis and Pakistanis start out with very large gaps in cognitive ability, (FAR behind any Black group) which reduce over time. By age 11 in which they take the CAT the gap has diminished even further. By the time they take GCSEs at 16 it’s gone altogether, Bangladeshis are even outperforming whites at gaining 5 good GCSEs including Maths and English. Imo their bad start is obviously due to their disadvantageous environment.

    From here

    http://sta.geo.useconnect.co.uk/pdf/Inequalities%20in%20education%20outcomes%20among%20children.pdf

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  • “Any Other Asian” (865) Category : Vienamese, Laos, Malaysians(Malays and ethnic Chinese)…?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ambiguous
    The largest group of "Other Asian" are Sri Lankans, there are probably some Nepalis and Afghans among them too. In Britain "Asian" has always primarily meant South Asian.

    From wiki:

    "South Asians who marked "Other Asian" as an ethnic group and then wrote in their specific ethnic group were mostly (23%) of Sri Lankan origin. This was followed by fill-ins of Middle Eastern (9%) origin. Due to a growing sense of affiliation with Britain, many third generation South Asians chose to not mark "Asian or British Asian" and instead marked "British Asian" in the "Other Asian" write in section."

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  • @Ron Unz
    Those Q and NV Chinese scores are simply astonishing---112 and almost 110. However, the numbers are tiny, so maybe they tend to be from elite professional immigrant backgrounds, like businessmen or engineers.

    I'll admit I'm also a little surprised that all the students with any non-white ancestry amount to only about 13% of the total. To hear all the WNs complain on blogsites, you'd think they'd be over 30% of the younger age cohorts.

    I doubt. The Chinese in the UK are by and large the descendants of the Cantonese settled long ago.

    Unlike some other ethnic groups such as “Asians”(Indians, Pakistanis, etc) whose cog elites could immigrant to the UK quite easily in the last decade under NuLabour(e.g. outsourced NHS doctors, engineers, IT wokers and school/uni teachers/researchers, financial analysts), Chinese professionals even with Oxbridge degrees mostly can not immigrante to the UK due to very strict regulations. Wierd enough that for decades the UK has put very high bar even on simple tourist Visa for the (rich)Chinese from the mainland – Telegraph’s Ed West wrote a recent piece on that. And from what I’s aware of the UK is not amongst most desired immigration destinations for the young mainland Chinese professionals.

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  • @Eric
    The test was carried out to test 7th graders(12/13 yo), and IQ/Cognitive abilities gap between groups get larger as people age (Gradual gap appearance). If the test were carried out for younger students, the gaps between groups will become narrower still.

    Ah, well, that would certainly explain quite a few things then…

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  • googling for CAT, it’s given for 7th or 9th standard pupils and GCSEs derive a significant portion of their scores from coursework.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    Some groups presumably take IQ tests more seriously than others. :)

    But we're talking of the CAT here, not GCSE's.

    The test was carried out to test 7th graders(12/13 yo), and IQ/Cognitive abilities gap between groups get larger as people age (Gradual gap appearance). If the test were carried out for younger students, the gaps between groups will become narrower still.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Ah, well, that would certainly explain quite a few things then...
    , @Ambiguous
    "IQ/Cognitive abilities gap between groups get larger as people age"

    Bangladeshis and Pakistanis start out with very large gaps in cognitive ability, (FAR behind any Black group) which reduce over time. By age 11 in which they take the CAT the gap has diminished even further. By the time they take GCSEs at 16 it's gone altogether, Bangladeshis are even outperforming whites at gaining 5 good GCSEs including Maths and English. Imo their bad start is obviously due to their disadvantageous environment.

    https://occidentalascent.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/screen-shot-2012-04-05-at-1-38-51-pm.png

    From here

    http://sta.geo.useconnect.co.uk/pdf/Inequalities%20in%20education%20outcomes%20among%20children.pdf

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Those Q and NV Chinese scores are simply astonishing—112 and almost 110. However, the numbers are tiny, so maybe they tend to be from elite professional immigrant backgrounds, like businessmen or engineers.

    I’ll admit I’m also a little surprised that all the students with any non-white ancestry amount to only about 13% of the total. To hear all the WNs complain on blogsites, you’d think they’d be over 30% of the younger age cohorts.

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    • Replies: @SP
    I doubt. The Chinese in the UK are by and large the descendants of the Cantonese settled long ago.

    Unlike some other ethnic groups such as "Asians"(Indians, Pakistanis, etc) whose cog elites could immigrant to the UK quite easily in the last decade under NuLabour(e.g. outsourced NHS doctors, engineers, IT wokers and school/uni teachers/researchers, financial analysts), Chinese professionals even with Oxbridge degrees mostly can not immigrante to the UK due to very strict regulations. Wierd enough that for decades the UK has put very high bar even on simple tourist Visa for the (rich)Chinese from the mainland - Telegraph's Ed West wrote a recent piece on that. And from what I's aware of the UK is not amongst most desired immigration destinations for the young mainland Chinese professionals.

    , @Ambiguous
    The Chinese mean score of 107.5 is pretty much exactly what they get in developed places like HK and SIngapore. Nothing surprising about it.
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  • Is there any difference for the structure of difficulty of CAT vs other IQ tests? As you know, the slope of performance can be changed by the organization of test questions. And when all questions are too easy (all passed) or too hard (all failed), you will not see any difference between groups. If CAT only stratified above white, you would see the result like this. If CAT stratified like other IQ test, then data would be real.

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