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    When I was growing up in New Jersey there were a lot of colorful expressions that one managed to pick up. The flyover America public can get a glimpse of what that means by listening to Chris Christie speak, though he offers only a mild version of the local vernacular as he is simultaneously trying...
  • A popular rhetorical question in the U.S. army of the late 60′s was “whats that white stuff in chicken shit?” The response? It’s just more chicken shit.

    Sixty Minutes is just more white stuff.

    The entire corporate media, including Reuters, Bloomberg and PBS, are just more white stuff.

    I once saw a hilarious ventriloquist act. The ventriloquist was a Native American. His dummy was a Mexican. And the dummy had it’s own dummy. A cowboy. We never see our true elite’s lips move. We hear from dummies and dummy’s dummies.

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  • @Sam Shama
    Hi S2C,
    The pilgrim's progress, I am afraid, has not been quite as alacritous as one might have hoped, yet it isn't a case of wheels mired in the bog either. The membership has in fact withheld sponsorship dollars to various organisations that I won't name here - a break from a tradition of almost three decades. The IAC event in Washington next weekend has had 20 registrants cancelling attendance. Formal letters have been sent to Israeli political parties seeking clarity and explanations.

    The population needs to be educated. How best to do it remains the subject of great debate, at least among a group of collaborators I have managed to help cross the rubicon.

    Thanks for the links you provided. I am very familiar with the vile Ayelet and the bile that flows from her lips. There are times when societies writhe in the grip of false pioneers; she and her ilk are the progeny of one such line that has had an unbroken presence in Israel. They never had as much power, as they do now. I know not the complete source of that power, only it seems manifest that lucre flowing from the U.S. is vital. Yet is cannot be the solitary cause.

    Are you in fact in agreement with Michael Ledeen's portrayal of societies today? I have not studied Machiavelli, only a rather hurried reading of The Prince is the sum total of my knowledge of his prescriptions. So if I were to discern that we do indeed have a thoroughly corrupt society, we are then in great need of a Cesare and Rodrigo Borgia, are we not? Are they around?

    And the questions related to these corrupt states:
    (1) Which populations? (candidates: Israelis in the Sharon valley, Israelis in the WB, US Jews, US general public, EU public)

    (2) What is the level of corruption we are confronted with: (a) just the leadership or (b) the general rot is deeper and afflicts the body in its entirety?

    Michael Ledeen is a psychopath who should be in prison.

    I have studied Machiavelli from several different perspectives. Ledeen gets Machiavelli wrong because he focuses on the Mosaic model that The Prince mentions, but someone like Ledeen is incapable of recognizing the extent to which Machiavelli’s study of Dante influence his world view, and the depth of Niccolo’s love for Florence.

    I agree that the USA has lost its virtu and only a temporary tyrant/dictator can clean out the rot and revitalize the nation. Sadly, Sam, in my view one of the major carriers of the corruption that is eating away at USA is zionism; Benjamin Netanyahu is a major vector of the disorder; his 44 second staring match at the UN is an indication of pathology.

    I have written here and/or elsewhere that Israel will turn on USA and attempt to destroy it; I think major steps are taken in that direction.

    If ISIS is such a problem for “US interests;” and Israel is a US ally in the region; and American taxpayers send billions to Israel to arm itself, why isn’t Israel carrying on the fight against ISIS to protect USA interests in the region?

    What does Israel use its extensive weapons budget and procurement for — to defend itself against rock-throwing Palestinians?

    In speaking engagements in the US since March 2015 Yossi Alpher has been saying that Israel will ally with Saudi Arabia.

    KSA and especially Wahabbism is Ground Zero for ISIS. USA sells arms to KSA.

    Israel is allying itself with ISIS.

    The situation as it is developing is that Israel will use weapons that US taxpayers have provided and join a coalition to destroy the USA.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    ... and we imposed virtue on those places.” Michael Ledeen
     
    It's hard for my mind to compute seeing neocons - especially Michael Ledeen - use the term "virtue." Their whole philosophy is based on the premise that morals are irrelevant and counterproductive, as they go against nature - i.e., the strong should rule the weak. Doesn't the lion devour the sheep, they ask. According to them, Machiavelli had it right: the end justifies the means.

    But when asked about the German lion devouring the Jewish sheep, they switch things around and start playing the moral card, saying the Nazis were evil, Hitler was the devil, etc.

    What gets me is they either don't realize the hypocrisy of what they are saying or what's more likely, given their high IQs, they are betting the goy are too dumb to connect the dots.

    What gets me is they either don’t realize the hypocrisy of what they are saying or what’s more likely, given their high IQs, they are betting the goy are too dumb to connect the dots.

    My guess would be the latter. And sadly, they are mostly right.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    The Panther, the Lion and the Wolf -- the politician, the pundit, the populace -- that Pilgrim Sam must confront:

    The refreshing bluntness of Ayelet Shaked
    [ Shaked, 39, is a member of Bennett's Jewish Home party. She was appointed Israel's Justice Minister several months ago.]

    What’s so horrifying about understanding that the entire Palestinian people is the enemy? ** Every war is between two peoples, and in every war the people who started the war, that whole people, is the enemy…They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there
     
    .
     


    Zionism in Freefall "The only solution is to understand that only one people will exist between the Jordan river and the sea, and the other people will undergo a dreadful holocaust and annihilation.
    The only conclusion is that even though the conditions are not yet ripe, we must act quietly to lay the ground for the final extermination of the Palestinian people. Meaning the enemy which seeks to destroy us. " - Nati Mor
     
    " Though it’s one of the most extreme statements I’ve read in some time, it’s important because it represents the views of so many more Israelis, including many who would never be so bold as to express themselves like this publicly." -- Richard Silverstein, http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2015/09/29/israeli-advocates-palestinian-holocaust/
     
    ---

    ** echoes from the 1940s:
    "In the opinion of [1st Baron Sir Robert Vansittart, Chief Diplomatic Adviser to the British Government], it is an illusion to differentiate between the German right, centre, or left, or the German Catholics or Protestants, or the German workers or capitalists. They are all alike, and the only hope for a peaceful Europe is a crushing and violent military defeat followed by a couple of generations of re-education controlled by the United Nations."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Vansittart,_1st_Baron_Vansittart

    and

    "What happens is [Moses] throws the snit, smashes the tablets and then says Kill them all. And the Levites , and I pay attention to this being one, and y’know I’m proud of this particular passage, the Levites come and kill them all! All those people who were worshiping the golden calf. . . .
    and this scene of Moses killing Jews recurs several times in the Old Testament . . .
    Anybody looking carefully at Moses has to admit that in order to create a new state and a new religion had to kill countless people.
    . . .
    in order to create anything truly meaningful destruction is required because people are not inclined to go for that.
    I mean, Consider the Exodus, that’s topnotch leadership, Moses and god, hard to imagine better leadership than that, plus proven results every step of the way. . .
    [and yet the Jews were dissatisfied and demanded to return to Egypt, so Yahweh punished them by causing them wander in the desert 40 years until the generation had died away. The younger generation -- the 39 year olds -- took charge and destroyed Jericho and conquered Canaan].

    We have done this. Any time you talk about this to American they go Oh my god, you know, but temporary dictatorship — too high a price to pay.
    We did it to Germany and Japan at the end of World War II. That’s exactly what we did.
    We imposed a military dictatorship on those two former tyrannies, and we purged those societies and we made everybody ‘fess up to what they had done during the Nazi period — not as much as we might have — but it was enough, and we imposed democracy on them . We ran it. We picked their leaders, we put them in office, we screened their followers and people who held all high positions, particularly in the military, we virtually wrote the German constitution, and we imposed virtue on those places."
    Michael Ledeen, http://www.c-span.org/video/?123852-1/book-discussion-machiavelli-modern-leadership

    Hi S2C,
    The pilgrim’s progress, I am afraid, has not been quite as alacritous as one might have hoped, yet it isn’t a case of wheels mired in the bog either. The membership has in fact withheld sponsorship dollars to various organisations that I won’t name here – a break from a tradition of almost three decades. The IAC event in Washington next weekend has had 20 registrants cancelling attendance. Formal letters have been sent to Israeli political parties seeking clarity and explanations.

    The population needs to be educated. How best to do it remains the subject of great debate, at least among a group of collaborators I have managed to help cross the rubicon.

    Thanks for the links you provided. I am very familiar with the vile Ayelet and the bile that flows from her lips. There are times when societies writhe in the grip of false pioneers; she and her ilk are the progeny of one such line that has had an unbroken presence in Israel. They never had as much power, as they do now. I know not the complete source of that power, only it seems manifest that lucre flowing from the U.S. is vital. Yet is cannot be the solitary cause.

    Are you in fact in agreement with Michael Ledeen’s portrayal of societies today? I have not studied Machiavelli, only a rather hurried reading of The Prince is the sum total of my knowledge of his prescriptions. So if I were to discern that we do indeed have a thoroughly corrupt society, we are then in great need of a Cesare and Rodrigo Borgia, are we not? Are they around?

    And the questions related to these corrupt states:
    (1) Which populations? (candidates: Israelis in the Sharon valley, Israelis in the WB, US Jews, US general public, EU public)

    (2) What is the level of corruption we are confronted with: (a) just the leadership or (b) the general rot is deeper and afflicts the body in its entirety?

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Michael Ledeen is a psychopath who should be in prison.

    I have studied Machiavelli from several different perspectives. Ledeen gets Machiavelli wrong because he focuses on the Mosaic model that The Prince mentions, but someone like Ledeen is incapable of recognizing the extent to which Machiavelli's study of Dante influence his world view, and the depth of Niccolo's love for Florence.

    I agree that the USA has lost its virtu and only a temporary tyrant/dictator can clean out the rot and revitalize the nation. Sadly, Sam, in my view one of the major carriers of the corruption that is eating away at USA is zionism; Benjamin Netanyahu is a major vector of the disorder; his 44 second staring match at the UN is an indication of pathology.

    ---

    I have written here and/or elsewhere that Israel will turn on USA and attempt to destroy it; I think major steps are taken in that direction.

    If ISIS is such a problem for "US interests;" and Israel is a US ally in the region; and American taxpayers send billions to Israel to arm itself, why isn't Israel carrying on the fight against ISIS to protect USA interests in the region?

    What does Israel use its extensive weapons budget and procurement for -- to defend itself against rock-throwing Palestinians?

    In speaking engagements in the US since March 2015 Yossi Alpher has been saying that Israel will ally with Saudi Arabia.

    KSA and especially Wahabbism is Ground Zero for ISIS. USA sells arms to KSA.

    Israel is allying itself with ISIS.

    The situation as it is developing is that Israel will use weapons that US taxpayers have provided and join a coalition to destroy the USA.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • The comment was supposed to have been deleted. It was posted in error; I intended to edit it before posting.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    The Panther, the Lion and the Wolf -- the politician, the pundit, the populace -- that Pilgrim Sam must confront:

    The refreshing bluntness of Ayelet Shaked
    [ Shaked, 39, is a member of Bennett's Jewish Home party. She was appointed Israel's Justice Minister several months ago.]

    What’s so horrifying about understanding that the entire Palestinian people is the enemy? ** Every war is between two peoples, and in every war the people who started the war, that whole people, is the enemy…They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there
     
    .
     


    Zionism in Freefall "The only solution is to understand that only one people will exist between the Jordan river and the sea, and the other people will undergo a dreadful holocaust and annihilation.
    The only conclusion is that even though the conditions are not yet ripe, we must act quietly to lay the ground for the final extermination of the Palestinian people. Meaning the enemy which seeks to destroy us. " - Nati Mor
     
    " Though it’s one of the most extreme statements I’ve read in some time, it’s important because it represents the views of so many more Israelis, including many who would never be so bold as to express themselves like this publicly." -- Richard Silverstein, http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2015/09/29/israeli-advocates-palestinian-holocaust/
     
    ---

    ** echoes from the 1940s:
    "In the opinion of [1st Baron Sir Robert Vansittart, Chief Diplomatic Adviser to the British Government], it is an illusion to differentiate between the German right, centre, or left, or the German Catholics or Protestants, or the German workers or capitalists. They are all alike, and the only hope for a peaceful Europe is a crushing and violent military defeat followed by a couple of generations of re-education controlled by the United Nations."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Vansittart,_1st_Baron_Vansittart

    and

    "What happens is [Moses] throws the snit, smashes the tablets and then says Kill them all. And the Levites , and I pay attention to this being one, and y’know I’m proud of this particular passage, the Levites come and kill them all! All those people who were worshiping the golden calf. . . .
    and this scene of Moses killing Jews recurs several times in the Old Testament . . .
    Anybody looking carefully at Moses has to admit that in order to create a new state and a new religion had to kill countless people.
    . . .
    in order to create anything truly meaningful destruction is required because people are not inclined to go for that.
    I mean, Consider the Exodus, that’s topnotch leadership, Moses and god, hard to imagine better leadership than that, plus proven results every step of the way. . .
    [and yet the Jews were dissatisfied and demanded to return to Egypt, so Yahweh punished them by causing them wander in the desert 40 years until the generation had died away. The younger generation -- the 39 year olds -- took charge and destroyed Jericho and conquered Canaan].

    We have done this. Any time you talk about this to American they go Oh my god, you know, but temporary dictatorship — too high a price to pay.
    We did it to Germany and Japan at the end of World War II. That’s exactly what we did.
    We imposed a military dictatorship on those two former tyrannies, and we purged those societies and we made everybody ‘fess up to what they had done during the Nazi period — not as much as we might have — but it was enough, and we imposed democracy on them . We ran it. We picked their leaders, we put them in office, we screened their followers and people who held all high positions, particularly in the military, we virtually wrote the German constitution, and we imposed virtue on those places."
    Michael Ledeen, http://www.c-span.org/video/?123852-1/book-discussion-machiavelli-modern-leadership

    … and we imposed virtue on those places.” Michael Ledeen

    It’s hard for my mind to compute seeing neocons – especially Michael Ledeen – use the term “virtue.” Their whole philosophy is based on the premise that morals are irrelevant and counterproductive, as they go against nature – i.e., the strong should rule the weak. Doesn’t the lion devour the sheep, they ask. According to them, Machiavelli had it right: the end justifies the means.

    But when asked about the German lion devouring the Jewish sheep, they switch things around and start playing the moral card, saying the Nazis were evil, Hitler was the devil, etc.

    What gets me is they either don’t realize the hypocrisy of what they are saying or what’s more likely, given their high IQs, they are betting the goy are too dumb to connect the dots.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig

    What gets me is they either don’t realize the hypocrisy of what they are saying or what’s more likely, given their high IQs, they are betting the goy are too dumb to connect the dots.
     
    My guess would be the latter. And sadly, they are mostly right.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • The Panther, the Lion and the Wolf — the politician, the pundit, the populace — that Pilgrim Sam must confront:

    The refreshing bluntness of Ayelet Shaked
    [ Shaked, 39, is a member of Bennett's Jewish Home party. She was appointed Israel's Justice Minister several months ago.]

    What’s so horrifying about understanding that the entire Palestinian people is the enemy? ** Every war is between two peoples, and in every war the people who started the war, that whole people, is the enemy…They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there

    .

    Zionism in Freefall “The only solution is to understand that only one people will exist between the Jordan river and the sea, and the other people will undergo a dreadful holocaust and annihilation.
    The only conclusion is that even though the conditions are not yet ripe, we must act quietly to lay the ground for the final extermination of the Palestinian people. Meaning the enemy which seeks to destroy us. ” – Nati Mor

    ” Though it’s one of the most extreme statements I’ve read in some time, it’s important because it represents the views of so many more Israelis, including many who would never be so bold as to express themselves like this publicly.” — Richard Silverstein, http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2015/09/29/israeli-advocates-palestinian-holocaust/

    ** echoes from the 1940s:
    “In the opinion of [1st Baron Sir Robert Vansittart, Chief Diplomatic Adviser to the British Government], it is an illusion to differentiate between the German right, centre, or left, or the German Catholics or Protestants, or the German workers or capitalists. They are all alike, and the only hope for a peaceful Europe is a crushing and violent military defeat followed by a couple of generations of re-education controlled by the United Nations.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Vansittart,_1st_Baron_Vansittart

    and

    “What happens is [Moses] throws the snit, smashes the tablets and then says Kill them all. And the Levites , and I pay attention to this being one, and y’know I’m proud of this particular passage, the Levites come and kill them all! All those people who were worshiping the golden calf. . . .
    and this scene of Moses killing Jews recurs several times in the Old Testament . . .
    Anybody looking carefully at Moses has to admit that in order to create a new state and a new religion had to kill countless people.
    . . .
    in order to create anything truly meaningful destruction is required because people are not inclined to go for that.
    I mean, Consider the Exodus, that’s topnotch leadership, Moses and god, hard to imagine better leadership than that, plus proven results every step of the way. . .
    [and yet the Jews were dissatisfied and demanded to return to Egypt, so Yahweh punished them by causing them wander in the desert 40 years until the generation had died away. The younger generation -- the 39 year olds -- took charge and destroyed Jericho and conquered Canaan].

    We have done this. Any time you talk about this to American they go Oh my god, you know, but temporary dictatorship — too high a price to pay.
    We did it to Germany and Japan at the end of World War II. That’s exactly what we did.
    We imposed a military dictatorship on those two former tyrannies, and we purged those societies and we made everybody ‘fess up to what they had done during the Nazi period — not as much as we might have — but it was enough, and we imposed democracy on them . We ran it. We picked their leaders, we put them in office, we screened their followers and people who held all high positions, particularly in the military, we virtually wrote the German constitution, and we imposed virtue on those places.”
    Michael Ledeen, http://www.c-span.org/video/?123852-1/book-discussion-machiavelli-modern-leadership

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    ... and we imposed virtue on those places.” Michael Ledeen
     
    It's hard for my mind to compute seeing neocons - especially Michael Ledeen - use the term "virtue." Their whole philosophy is based on the premise that morals are irrelevant and counterproductive, as they go against nature - i.e., the strong should rule the weak. Doesn't the lion devour the sheep, they ask. According to them, Machiavelli had it right: the end justifies the means.

    But when asked about the German lion devouring the Jewish sheep, they switch things around and start playing the moral card, saying the Nazis were evil, Hitler was the devil, etc.

    What gets me is they either don't realize the hypocrisy of what they are saying or what's more likely, given their high IQs, they are betting the goy are too dumb to connect the dots.
    , @Sam Shama
    Hi S2C,
    The pilgrim's progress, I am afraid, has not been quite as alacritous as one might have hoped, yet it isn't a case of wheels mired in the bog either. The membership has in fact withheld sponsorship dollars to various organisations that I won't name here - a break from a tradition of almost three decades. The IAC event in Washington next weekend has had 20 registrants cancelling attendance. Formal letters have been sent to Israeli political parties seeking clarity and explanations.

    The population needs to be educated. How best to do it remains the subject of great debate, at least among a group of collaborators I have managed to help cross the rubicon.

    Thanks for the links you provided. I am very familiar with the vile Ayelet and the bile that flows from her lips. There are times when societies writhe in the grip of false pioneers; she and her ilk are the progeny of one such line that has had an unbroken presence in Israel. They never had as much power, as they do now. I know not the complete source of that power, only it seems manifest that lucre flowing from the U.S. is vital. Yet is cannot be the solitary cause.

    Are you in fact in agreement with Michael Ledeen's portrayal of societies today? I have not studied Machiavelli, only a rather hurried reading of The Prince is the sum total of my knowledge of his prescriptions. So if I were to discern that we do indeed have a thoroughly corrupt society, we are then in great need of a Cesare and Rodrigo Borgia, are we not? Are they around?

    And the questions related to these corrupt states:
    (1) Which populations? (candidates: Israelis in the Sharon valley, Israelis in the WB, US Jews, US general public, EU public)

    (2) What is the level of corruption we are confronted with: (a) just the leadership or (b) the general rot is deeper and afflicts the body in its entirety?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Seamus Padraig
    Thanks for the link, Sam. Bennett's article is kind of vague. My suspicion is that he means something like what geokat's citations describe. A true one-state solution is, I understand, not at all popular in Israel, apart from a few lefty die-hards, such as Uri Avnery.

    A true one-state solution is, I understand, not at all popular in Israel, apart from a few lefty die-hards, such as Uri Avnery.

    While I don’t dispute that UA is a lefty die-hard, I know for sure he doesn’t support a 1SS, as I am a big admirer of his and read most, if not all, of his articles.

    But before posting this response, I did a quick search on the Internet just to confirm that I hadn’t missed something. To my delight, I came across this debate between UA and Ilan Pappe:

    http://www.inminds.com/article.php?id=10155

    I already knew IP was a man of significant moral character, as he had authored The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. But after reading the transcript of this debate with UA, my regard for him has increased tenfold. He is to be counted as one of the truly great humanitarians among us.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Hi Seamus
    I may as well start by disclosing my general suspicion of Naftali Bennet and his motivations. However since he has been gaining some ground on what he calls the one state solution (1SS), with perhaps certain sensible economic and commercial policies (at least on paper)
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/06/opinion/naftali-bennett-for-israel-two-state-is-no-solution.html?_r=0
    we thought it important, to obtain a better understanding of his plans, especially as they relate to voting rights and Knesset representation, social justice, civic infrastructure and public facility usage and property rights of Palestinians. We are waiting to hear back.

    Thanks for the link, Sam. Bennett’s article is kind of vague. My suspicion is that he means something like what geokat’s citations describe. A true one-state solution is, I understand, not at all popular in Israel, apart from a few lefty die-hards, such as Uri Avnery.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    A true one-state solution is, I understand, not at all popular in Israel, apart from a few lefty die-hards, such as Uri Avnery.
     
    While I don't dispute that UA is a lefty die-hard, I know for sure he doesn't support a 1SS, as I am a big admirer of his and read most, if not all, of his articles.

    But before posting this response, I did a quick search on the Internet just to confirm that I hadn't missed something. To my delight, I came across this debate between UA and Ilan Pappe:

    http://www.inminds.com/article.php?id=10155

    I already knew IP was a man of significant moral character, as he had authored The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. But after reading the transcript of this debate with UA, my regard for him has increased tenfold. He is to be counted as one of the truly great humanitarians among us.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    I have no illusions however, that such an outcome would be extremely difficult since the jewish majority would be no longer exist in such a secular state, and the lunatic fringe would surely cause pandemonium

    I have no illusions…

    As JFK once said: we should be idealists without illusions.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Hi Geokat. Without a doubt I support a 1SS with equal rights for all citizens. Which is precisely why we question Naftali Bennet's plan; apparently it has changed from his original sketches.

    I have no illusions however, that such an outcome would be extremely difficult since the jewish majority would be no longer exist in such a secular state, and the lunatic fringe would surely cause pandemonium

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    I have no illusions...
     
    As JFK once said: we should be idealists without illusions.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    I may as well start by disclosing my general suspicion of Naftali Bennet and his motivations.
     
    Sam, just curious to see which of these two 1SSs you endorse:

    This so-called Jewish one-state solution is the total opposite of the secular democratic one-state solution that many Palestinians and a few Israelis want. Whereas the former is based on an apartheid racist plan that guarantees that Jews remain as a distinct category of citizens, the latter calls for equal rights for Palestinians and Israelis.
     

    Hi Geokat. Without a doubt I support a 1SS with equal rights for all citizens. Which is precisely why we question Naftali Bennet’s plan; apparently it has changed from his original sketches.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I have no illusions however, that such an outcome would be extremely difficult since the jewish majority would be no longer exist in such a secular state, and the lunatic fringe would surely cause pandemonium
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Hi Seamus
    I may as well start by disclosing my general suspicion of Naftali Bennet and his motivations. However since he has been gaining some ground on what he calls the one state solution (1SS), with perhaps certain sensible economic and commercial policies (at least on paper)
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/06/opinion/naftali-bennett-for-israel-two-state-is-no-solution.html?_r=0
    we thought it important, to obtain a better understanding of his plans, especially as they relate to voting rights and Knesset representation, social justice, civic infrastructure and public facility usage and property rights of Palestinians. We are waiting to hear back.

    I may as well start by disclosing my general suspicion of Naftali Bennet and his motivations.

    Sam, just curious to see which of these two 1SSs you endorse:

    This so-called Jewish one-state solution is the total opposite of the secular democratic one-state solution that many Palestinians and a few Israelis want. Whereas the former is based on an apartheid racist plan that guarantees that Jews remain as a distinct category of citizens, the latter calls for equal rights for Palestinians and Israelis.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Hi Geokat. Without a doubt I support a 1SS with equal rights for all citizens. Which is precisely why we question Naftali Bennet's plan; apparently it has changed from his original sketches.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Seamus Padraig

    Meanwhile I find a sea of change in my synagogue membership’s attitude towards the issue, a move in the right direction. We are about to send a letter to Bennet probing him on critical issues surrounding his plan for a 1SS.
     
    Sam, I'm trying to unravel your meaning here. Are you referring to Naftali Bennett? Is he actually a supporter of a one-state solution? That is, a unitary state where both Jews and Arabs are equal citizens? Or did you mean something else by "1SS"?

    Are you referring to Naftali Bennett? Is he actually a supporter of a one-state solution?

    Unless it has evolved dramatically from what he has stated on the record, here is what a NB’s 1SS would look like:

    The idea of a Jewish one-state solution has been detailed by a member of the current Netanyahu government. Naftali Bennett of the Jewish Home Party (HaBayit HaYehudi) gave specific information in an article published in the Times of Israel of how he would impose such a state starting with annexing Area C. That his party didn’t do so well in the last elections has largely weakened his party, but the idea of a one-state Jewish Israel continues to be reiterated by many Israelis, including many in the presiding Likud Party, the government and the presidency.

    Other senior Likud officials who want to annex the West Bank to Israel include Deputy Foreign Minister Tzipi Hotovely, who was described by the Israeli Mondoweiss independent website as “motivated by a religious belief that God gave the West Bank to the Jewish people.”

    This so-called Jewish one-state solution is the total opposite of the secular democratic one-state solution that many Palestinians and a few Israelis want. Whereas the former is based on an apartheid racist plan that guarantees that Jews remain as a distinct category of citizens, the latter calls for equal rights for Palestinians and Israelis.

    A host of other right-wing Israelis have different formulas they believe will ensure the permanent Jewishness of the future state without the need for continued military occupation.

    They are all supporters of some type of annexation (whether a gradual or one-time act) of the West Bank to Israel but refuse to annex the heavily populated Gaza Strip and, of course, they are totally against the return of any Palestinian refugee while supporting the right of Jews to return to this Jewish state.

    There are many different streams of Jewish “one-staters.” Rivlin’s idea is that while the state would be a Jewish state, it could have two distinct parliaments, thus making it more of a confederation but under Israeli Jewish auspices. Tel Aviv journalist and editor Naom Sheizaf explained how this concept is seen in Israel. Writing for +972 Magazine, Sheizaf said, “The Israeli right thinks of it as a Jewish state with a large Arab minority, while many Palestinians envision a Palestinian state with a large Jewish minority, and intellectuals discuss models that have little support on the ground.”

    Even before the latest Israeli elections in March that brought in more right-wing “annexationalists” to the government, some Israelis were concerned that the growing desire for annexation was clear.

    Shmuel Rosner, the political editor of The Jewish Journal, which has moderate political leanings, wrote in The New York Times in June 2014 that the idea of annexing the West Bank is becoming more and more mainstream. “It is safe to say that in today’s Israel the worrisome idea of annexing land in the West Bank is no longer marginal or considered as extreme as it once was.”

    The idea of annexing the West Bank to Israel has even seen support among congressional Republicans in the United States. US Rep. Joe Walsh, R-Ill., introduced in September 2011 a resolution (with 30 co-sponsors) to support Israel’s right to annex the West Bank in the event that the Palestinian Authority continues to push for a vote on Palestinian statehood at the United Nations. Palestine was recognized as a nonmember state in 2012, and the resolution was not passed by the Congress.

    For years, Palestinians and the international community have been calling for a two-state solution for Israel and Palestine as the most acceptable compromise for the conflict. With the Israelis’ continued rejection of the two-state solution, more and more Palestinians are calling for one secular state in which all citizens have equal rights. But while the Palestinians’ call for a secular state seems to be totally rejected by Israelis, more and more right-wing Israelis are adopting their own version of the one Jewish state.

    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/08/palestine-israel-one-state-solution.html#

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Seamus Padraig

    Meanwhile I find a sea of change in my synagogue membership’s attitude towards the issue, a move in the right direction. We are about to send a letter to Bennet probing him on critical issues surrounding his plan for a 1SS.
     
    Sam, I'm trying to unravel your meaning here. Are you referring to Naftali Bennett? Is he actually a supporter of a one-state solution? That is, a unitary state where both Jews and Arabs are equal citizens? Or did you mean something else by "1SS"?

    Hi Seamus
    I may as well start by disclosing my general suspicion of Naftali Bennet and his motivations. However since he has been gaining some ground on what he calls the one state solution (1SS), with perhaps certain sensible economic and commercial policies (at least on paper)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/06/opinion/naftali-bennett-for-israel-two-state-is-no-solution.html?_r=0

    we thought it important, to obtain a better understanding of his plans, especially as they relate to voting rights and Knesset representation, social justice, civic infrastructure and public facility usage and property rights of Palestinians. We are waiting to hear back.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    I may as well start by disclosing my general suspicion of Naftali Bennet and his motivations.
     
    Sam, just curious to see which of these two 1SSs you endorse:

    This so-called Jewish one-state solution is the total opposite of the secular democratic one-state solution that many Palestinians and a few Israelis want. Whereas the former is based on an apartheid racist plan that guarantees that Jews remain as a distinct category of citizens, the latter calls for equal rights for Palestinians and Israelis.
     
    , @Seamus Padraig
    Thanks for the link, Sam. Bennett's article is kind of vague. My suspicion is that he means something like what geokat's citations describe. A true one-state solution is, I understand, not at all popular in Israel, apart from a few lefty die-hards, such as Uri Avnery.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Hi Geokat, yes it is that backlash, I very much hope can be avoided, although the bigger point is to stop the suffering in the WB and Gaza. Have you followed the recent spate of stabbings in Jerusalem and elsewhere? This is going to lead to another intifada I feel, and nothing good will likely follow in terms of the safety of the populations. Meanwhile I find a sea of change in my synagogue membership's attitude towards the issue, a move in the right direction. We are about to send a letter to Bennet probing him on critical issues surrounding his plan for a 1SS. I'll share when we hear back.

    Meanwhile I find a sea of change in my synagogue membership’s attitude towards the issue, a move in the right direction. We are about to send a letter to Bennet probing him on critical issues surrounding his plan for a 1SS.

    Sam, I’m trying to unravel your meaning here. Are you referring to Naftali Bennett? Is he actually a supporter of a one-state solution? That is, a unitary state where both Jews and Arabs are equal citizens? Or did you mean something else by “1SS”?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Hi Seamus
    I may as well start by disclosing my general suspicion of Naftali Bennet and his motivations. However since he has been gaining some ground on what he calls the one state solution (1SS), with perhaps certain sensible economic and commercial policies (at least on paper)
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/06/opinion/naftali-bennett-for-israel-two-state-is-no-solution.html?_r=0
    we thought it important, to obtain a better understanding of his plans, especially as they relate to voting rights and Knesset representation, social justice, civic infrastructure and public facility usage and property rights of Palestinians. We are waiting to hear back.
    , @geokat62

    Are you referring to Naftali Bennett? Is he actually a supporter of a one-state solution?
     
    Unless it has evolved dramatically from what he has stated on the record, here is what a NB's 1SS would look like:

    The idea of a Jewish one-state solution has been detailed by a member of the current Netanyahu government. Naftali Bennett of the Jewish Home Party (HaBayit HaYehudi) gave specific information in an article published in the Times of Israel of how he would impose such a state starting with annexing Area C. That his party didn’t do so well in the last elections has largely weakened his party, but the idea of a one-state Jewish Israel continues to be reiterated by many Israelis, including many in the presiding Likud Party, the government and the presidency.

    Other senior Likud officials who want to annex the West Bank to Israel include Deputy Foreign Minister Tzipi Hotovely, who was described by the Israeli Mondoweiss independent website as “motivated by a religious belief that God gave the West Bank to the Jewish people.”

    This so-called Jewish one-state solution is the total opposite of the secular democratic one-state solution that many Palestinians and a few Israelis want. Whereas the former is based on an apartheid racist plan that guarantees that Jews remain as a distinct category of citizens, the latter calls for equal rights for Palestinians and Israelis.

    A host of other right-wing Israelis have different formulas they believe will ensure the permanent Jewishness of the future state without the need for continued military occupation.

    They are all supporters of some type of annexation (whether a gradual or one-time act) of the West Bank to Israel but refuse to annex the heavily populated Gaza Strip and, of course, they are totally against the return of any Palestinian refugee while supporting the right of Jews to return to this Jewish state.

    There are many different streams of Jewish “one-staters.” Rivlin’s idea is that while the state would be a Jewish state, it could have two distinct parliaments, thus making it more of a confederation but under Israeli Jewish auspices. Tel Aviv journalist and editor Naom Sheizaf explained how this concept is seen in Israel. Writing for +972 Magazine, Sheizaf said, “The Israeli right thinks of it as a Jewish state with a large Arab minority, while many Palestinians envision a Palestinian state with a large Jewish minority, and intellectuals discuss models that have little support on the ground.”

    Even before the latest Israeli elections in March that brought in more right-wing “annexationalists” to the government, some Israelis were concerned that the growing desire for annexation was clear.

    Shmuel Rosner, the political editor of The Jewish Journal, which has moderate political leanings, wrote in The New York Times in June 2014 that the idea of annexing the West Bank is becoming more and more mainstream. “It is safe to say that in today’s Israel the worrisome idea of annexing land in the West Bank is no longer marginal or considered as extreme as it once was.”

    The idea of annexing the West Bank to Israel has even seen support among congressional Republicans in the United States. US Rep. Joe Walsh, R-Ill., introduced in September 2011 a resolution (with 30 co-sponsors) to support Israel’s right to annex the West Bank in the event that the Palestinian Authority continues to push for a vote on Palestinian statehood at the United Nations. Palestine was recognized as a nonmember state in 2012, and the resolution was not passed by the Congress.

    For years, Palestinians and the international community have been calling for a two-state solution for Israel and Palestine as the most acceptable compromise for the conflict. With the Israelis’ continued rejection of the two-state solution, more and more Palestinians are calling for one secular state in which all citizens have equal rights. But while the Palestinians’ call for a secular state seems to be totally rejected by Israelis, more and more right-wing Israelis are adopting their own version of the one Jewish state.
    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/08/palestine-israel-one-state-solution.html#

     

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Kiza
    Dear Sam, I for one am very pleased that you are here on unz.com and sharing your knowledge, experience and information. In my life, I have met several people like you who I admired very much, for both their intelligence and for their moral strength.

    Peace and respect.

    Thanks Kiza for the kind words. It s reciprocated; I too am happy that I can visit these pages and have a conversation with people such as yourself, Phil Giraldi, Geokat, annamarina, Seamus Padraig, Ronald Thomas West and SolontoCroesus.

    Peace to all

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Hi Geokat, yes it is that backlash, I very much hope can be avoided, although the bigger point is to stop the suffering in the WB and Gaza. Have you followed the recent spate of stabbings in Jerusalem and elsewhere? This is going to lead to another intifada I feel, and nothing good will likely follow in terms of the safety of the populations. Meanwhile I find a sea of change in my synagogue membership's attitude towards the issue, a move in the right direction. We are about to send a letter to Bennet probing him on critical issues surrounding his plan for a 1SS. I'll share when we hear back.

    Hi Geokat, yes it is that backlash, I very much hope can be avoided, …

    Once again, Sam, thanks for your honesty.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Hi Geokat, yes it is that backlash, I very much hope can be avoided, although the bigger point is to stop the suffering in the WB and Gaza. Have you followed the recent spate of stabbings in Jerusalem and elsewhere? This is going to lead to another intifada I feel, and nothing good will likely follow in terms of the safety of the populations. Meanwhile I find a sea of change in my synagogue membership's attitude towards the issue, a move in the right direction. We are about to send a letter to Bennet probing him on critical issues surrounding his plan for a 1SS. I'll share when we hear back.

    Dear Sam, I for one am very pleased that you are here on unz.com and sharing your knowledge, experience and information. In my life, I have met several people like you who I admired very much, for both their intelligence and for their moral strength.

    Peace and respect.

    Read More
    • Agree: SolontoCroesus
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Thanks Kiza for the kind words. It s reciprocated; I too am happy that I can visit these pages and have a conversation with people such as yourself, Phil Giraldi, Geokat, annamarina, Seamus Padraig, Ronald Thomas West and SolontoCroesus.

    Peace to all

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Hi Geokat, yes it is that backlash, I very much hope can be avoided, although the bigger point is to stop the suffering in the WB and Gaza. Have you followed the recent spate of stabbings in Jerusalem and elsewhere? This is going to lead to another intifada I feel, and nothing good will likely follow in terms of the safety of the populations. Meanwhile I find a sea of change in my synagogue membership's attitude towards the issue, a move in the right direction. We are about to send a letter to Bennet probing him on critical issues surrounding his plan for a 1SS. I'll share when we hear back.

    This is going to lead to another intifada I feel, and nothing good will likely follow in terms of the safety of the populations…

    Another intifada is what they’re hoping for. The whole point of remaking the ME by regime changing Iraq (accomplished), Syria (imminent), and Iran (working on it), was to leave the Palestinians without any backers and thus face the full brunt of the IDF and settlers (better known as squatters) on their own. So, as usual, it is the safety of the Palestinian population that will be most at risk, especially the little boys hurling stones at Merkava tanks.

    Read More
    • Agree: Sam Shama
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    I can tell you that today, the morale of a not insignificant proportion of the IDF is adversely affected by similar actions, even worse actually in some ways, since the military is tasked to confront and contain a civilian population, something they were not trained for.
     
    Good on you, Sam, for your honesty. Trouble is, for every Sam Shama there are scores of Zionists (e.g., Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Scooter Libby, Elliot Abrams, Eliot Cohen, Victoria Nuland, Robert Kagan, Michael Ledeen, William Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, Charles Krauthammer, David Frum, Jennifer Rubin, Michael Rubin, Frederick Kagan etc.) who have no compunction about promoting a policy of remaking the ME by regime changing those regimes that are deemed to be enemies of the Zionist project. They also have no compunction about misleading the goy into believing all the wars are meant to keep them safe from those evil terrorists.

    The blood of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of innocent people is on their hands. If this madness isn't stopped soon, a backlash cannot be too far behind.

    “The blood of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of innocent people is on their hands.”
    It has been taking too long to make the point of the bloody guilt on a part of the US war profiteers of all sorts. The imperial entrepreneurs were not seemingly aware of the changes in the speed and availability of information; they continue, like Cheney & Kagans, to pretend ridiculously on a role of statesmen. These big-time war criminals deserve to be Eichmanned.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    I can tell you that today, the morale of a not insignificant proportion of the IDF is adversely affected by similar actions, even worse actually in some ways, since the military is tasked to confront and contain a civilian population, something they were not trained for.
     
    Good on you, Sam, for your honesty. Trouble is, for every Sam Shama there are scores of Zionists (e.g., Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Scooter Libby, Elliot Abrams, Eliot Cohen, Victoria Nuland, Robert Kagan, Michael Ledeen, William Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, Charles Krauthammer, David Frum, Jennifer Rubin, Michael Rubin, Frederick Kagan etc.) who have no compunction about promoting a policy of remaking the ME by regime changing those regimes that are deemed to be enemies of the Zionist project. They also have no compunction about misleading the goy into believing all the wars are meant to keep them safe from those evil terrorists.

    The blood of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of innocent people is on their hands. If this madness isn't stopped soon, a backlash cannot be too far behind.

    Hi Geokat, yes it is that backlash, I very much hope can be avoided, although the bigger point is to stop the suffering in the WB and Gaza. Have you followed the recent spate of stabbings in Jerusalem and elsewhere? This is going to lead to another intifada I feel, and nothing good will likely follow in terms of the safety of the populations. Meanwhile I find a sea of change in my synagogue membership’s attitude towards the issue, a move in the right direction. We are about to send a letter to Bennet probing him on critical issues surrounding his plan for a 1SS. I’ll share when we hear back.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    This is going to lead to another intifada I feel, and nothing good will likely follow in terms of the safety of the populations...
     
    Another intifada is what they're hoping for. The whole point of remaking the ME by regime changing Iraq (accomplished), Syria (imminent), and Iran (working on it), was to leave the Palestinians without any backers and thus face the full brunt of the IDF and settlers (better known as squatters) on their own. So, as usual, it is the safety of the Palestinian population that will be most at risk, especially the little boys hurling stones at Merkava tanks.
    , @Kiza
    Dear Sam, I for one am very pleased that you are here on unz.com and sharing your knowledge, experience and information. In my life, I have met several people like you who I admired very much, for both their intelligence and for their moral strength.

    Peace and respect.

    , @geokat62

    Hi Geokat, yes it is that backlash, I very much hope can be avoided, ...
     
    Once again, Sam, thanks for your honesty.
    , @Seamus Padraig

    Meanwhile I find a sea of change in my synagogue membership’s attitude towards the issue, a move in the right direction. We are about to send a letter to Bennet probing him on critical issues surrounding his plan for a 1SS.
     
    Sam, I'm trying to unravel your meaning here. Are you referring to Naftali Bennett? Is he actually a supporter of a one-state solution? That is, a unitary state where both Jews and Arabs are equal citizens? Or did you mean something else by "1SS"?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus

    All your other other explanations, justifications,…..,England, FDR, Kristol, etc, etc, are irrelevant misdirection. I don’t care what Kristol said, or that FDR lied.
    Nothing to do with USSR.
     
    Here's my point, and one upon which I hope we can agree:

    That Germany invaded Stalingrad cannot be changed. It happened. It was horrible. Many people died. Their lives cannot ever be restored.

    We can't change that.
    What can be changed?

    I believe that if the steps by which a war came about, that resulted in Germany's invasion of Stalingrad, can be fully understood, those same dynamics can be avoided in the future.

    The more recent history of US foreign interventions in numerous states since World War 2 persuade me that the USA has not fully investigated those actions -- its own actions as well as those of others, both allied and adversarial. As a result the USA is making extremely destructive foreign policy choices that are costing the lives of millions of other people.

    I just started reading "FDR" by Jean Edward Smith. It's 1917, FDR is assistant secretary of Navy and Woodrow Wilson has just spoken to Congress and urged that US must involve itself in the war against Germany.

    Smith wrote, somewhat off-handedly, that "the blockade of German ports was having dreadful effects" among the German people.
    Next, Smith recounts how Germany decided to mobilize its submarine fleet and renew attacks on shipping in the North Sea. The tonnage sunk is detailed; Herbert Hoover is quoted regarding the dwindling inventory of grain in Britain and warning that unless shipping can be conducted safely, Britain may have to drop out of the fight lest its people starve. Smith devotes paragraphs and pages to FDR's plan and implementation of a mining operation -- -- the open seas would be mined as a net against German submarines. Such activity was illegal under the laws of the sea then in effect but the British and the Wilson administration acquiesced. "We can't seem to convince the Germans to stop attacking our ships," the leaders argued.

    But author Smith does not provide a fuller discussion of the starvation of German civilians that is taking place as a result of the Allied blockade of Germany, a blockade that included foodstuffs, which in itself is a gross violation of the laws of war.

    This is a significant omission. The same omission appears in almost every history of World War I.

    I'm not here to demand that we wring our hands for the poor German civilians who starved to death. Like Stalingrad, that's over; it can't be changed. The point I'm trying to make is larger than that:

    In World War I the Allies used illegal attacks on civilians --i.e. they imposed starvation on civilians-- to win a war.


    Presently, the USA and its allies are using similar illegal attacks on civilians to win a war: in the 1990s the USA led a coalition that imposed sanctions on Iraq that caused the death-by-starvation of a million people, half of them children. That softening-up phase was followed by full-blown invasion and destruction of a people, functioning state and culture.

    A few weeks ago Robert Kagan participated in a conversation with Rosa Brooks and others about the Iran deal and sanctions on Iran. https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/09/14/the-e-r-podcast-american-power-at-a-crossroads-rothkopf-brooks-schake-kagan/

    Kagan said: (@ 14 min)

    Take the Iran deal, for instance.
    Look, this was an act of american hegemony. it assumes that its our business whether iran gets a nuclear weapon or not.
    why?
    why is it our business whether iran gets a nuclear weapon?
    they’re probably not going to fire it at us. but because we feel we have extended commitments so therefore it’s our business.

    second, what do we do, ok we didn’t use force, what did we do? we bludgeoned them with brutal economic sanctions lowered their standard of living, maybe made people hungry. we used our control of the international financial systems to bludgeon them into this deal. that is an act of hegemonic behavior that assumes as i say that it’s our business, that we have a right to do it
     
    The important points within Kagan's comments are these:

    1. Nothing that Iran is doing vis a vis the USA justifies or legitimizes US actions against Iran. (see, for example, Mary Ellen O'Connell The Prohibition on the Use of Force for Arms Control: The Case of Iran’s Nuclear Program. )

    2. A case can be made that sanctions in themselves are acts of war. Courts in the EU have ruled that sanctions against Iran are illegal. (see EU Courts and Sanctions.

    3. As Kagan said, "Look, this was an act of American hegemony."

    Vansittart, quoted earlier, urged the World War II destruction of the German people to protect British hegemony in Europe. Mission accomplished: Germany was destroyed -- but so was the British empire.

    Jeffrey Engel analyzed the decision-making behind G H W Bush's Persian Gulf war. Engel said:

    "We should be frank about what moved them to act. It was NOT the argument that Kuwaiti independence mattered much at all.
    Neither was it that Hussein’s particular brand of evil and tyranny required an American response. Nor was Bush persuaded that Iraq’s aggression carried immediate concerns, or that Iraq might someday turn its oil wealth into dangerous weapons of mass destruction. . . .
    None, however, not freedom, evil, human rights, democracy or WMDs affected his thinking in those first fateful days of August.
    Bush was instead, and this is important, Bush was instead persuaded by the growing realization that he stood at a pivot moment in the course of history.

    Bush saw within it a chance to demonstrate that Washington would continue to lead. Leading it in particular towards the kind of world promised to His generation as their reward for service in World War 2. . . .
    Ultimately this vision of a new world order based on sovereignty and stability is what drove his thinking when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. In a similar vein he said, “The prospect of a global peace continues to depend on an American forward presence.
     
    In short, in the new unipolar world, G H W Bush acted to establish American hegemony. Iraq was destroyed, first by starvation, then by invasion and devastation, akin to the destruction of Germany in World War 2.

    Robert Kagan wants to do the same thing to Iran, for the same reasons -- American hegemony -- and with the same disdain for the laws of international order and rule of law as was demonstrated

    ~by the British when they blockaded Germany, causing the starvation of 800,000 civilians and the capitulation of Germany;

    ~by FDR when he arranged for the mining of international waters;

    ~by FDR when he arranged for the firebombing of German cities and civilians;

    ~by G H W Bush when he sanctioned to death a million Iraqis, followed by a wholly illicit invasion of Iraq carried out by his son;

    ~by sanctions against Iran that are intended to "make some people hungry", ideally, hungry enough to cause either the capitulation of the Iranian government or the submission of Iran to American hegemony.

    If you don't want another Stalingrad, Avery, figure out the dynamic that made it possible and stop it from happening again; figure out what was the first domino to fall, who pushed it, and what was the theory and legitimacy of the policy that motivated that process?

    One more thought: it would be interesting to test the hypothesis that Woodrow Wilson and FDR led a radical departure from the sort of rules- and mutual respect-based prescriptions for foreign relations set down by George Washington in his Farewell Address.

    Which of these men pledged his Life, his Fortune, his Sacred Honor to the well-being of the American people:

    Robert Kagan
    George Bush
    George H W Bush
    Franklin D Roosevelt
    Woodrow Wilson
    George Washington ?

    Whose United States do you want to live in?

    If you don’t want another Stalingrad, Avery, figure out the dynamic that made it possible and stop it from happening again…

    With all due respect, S2C, there is no mystery as to the dynamic that made WWII possible. It is the same dynamic that made WWI possible and every conflict that came before it and every conflict that will come after it. It is power… plain and simple. If a state thinks it has the power to advance its interests by force, it will do so. No mystery there. The challenge, of course, is to somehow restrain that power by the imposition of international law. It’s been tried before with the establishment of both the UN and the ICC. As I’ve commented before, I don’t believe these institutions have had much success in restraining aggressive nations from attacking other nations. There was some hope with the Nuremberg Tribunals but that dream vanished into thin air when the neocons/Israel Firsters got the US to launch its illegal wars against 7 Muslim countries in 5 years.

    So rather than waste any more ink on who did what to whom before, during, and after WWII, perhaps the focus of these discussions should be on whether and how international law can be made more effective in restraining the powerful. I, for one, have my doubts.

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  • @Sam Shama

    When I watch movies about Vietnam (e.g. Full Metal Jacket), I wish I could have been a chaplain to tell the young US soldiers not to do what they may regret and have nightmares about for the rest of their lives (ask almost any Vietnam Vet). Ditto for any other ongoing US war. Resist the regime or suffer for the rest of your life, if you have any residual humanity in you.
     
    Truly important observation, Kiza. I can tell you that today, the morale of a not insignificant proportion of the IDF is adversely affected by similar actions, even worse actually in some ways, since the military is tasked to confront and contain a civilian population, something they were not trained for. In the U.S. though, and I am confounded by this, I meet more young military personnel who display no understanding or qualms about the harm militaries inflict. Its almost robotic, their attitudes.

    I can tell you that today, the morale of a not insignificant proportion of the IDF is adversely affected by similar actions, even worse actually in some ways, since the military is tasked to confront and contain a civilian population, something they were not trained for.

    Good on you, Sam, for your honesty. Trouble is, for every Sam Shama there are scores of Zionists (e.g., Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Scooter Libby, Elliot Abrams, Eliot Cohen, Victoria Nuland, Robert Kagan, Michael Ledeen, William Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, Charles Krauthammer, David Frum, Jennifer Rubin, Michael Rubin, Frederick Kagan etc.) who have no compunction about promoting a policy of remaking the ME by regime changing those regimes that are deemed to be enemies of the Zionist project. They also have no compunction about misleading the goy into believing all the wars are meant to keep them safe from those evil terrorists.

    The blood of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of innocent people is on their hands. If this madness isn’t stopped soon, a backlash cannot be too far behind.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Hi Geokat, yes it is that backlash, I very much hope can be avoided, although the bigger point is to stop the suffering in the WB and Gaza. Have you followed the recent spate of stabbings in Jerusalem and elsewhere? This is going to lead to another intifada I feel, and nothing good will likely follow in terms of the safety of the populations. Meanwhile I find a sea of change in my synagogue membership's attitude towards the issue, a move in the right direction. We are about to send a letter to Bennet probing him on critical issues surrounding his plan for a 1SS. I'll share when we hear back.
    , @annamaria
    "The blood of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of innocent people is on their hands."
    It has been taking too long to make the point of the bloody guilt on a part of the US war profiteers of all sorts. The imperial entrepreneurs were not seemingly aware of the changes in the speed and availability of information; they continue, like Cheney & Kagans, to pretend ridiculously on a role of statesmen. These big-time war criminals deserve to be Eichmanned.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus

    All your other other explanations, justifications,…..,England, FDR, Kristol, etc, etc, are irrelevant misdirection. I don’t care what Kristol said, or that FDR lied.
    Nothing to do with USSR.
     
    Here's my point, and one upon which I hope we can agree:

    That Germany invaded Stalingrad cannot be changed. It happened. It was horrible. Many people died. Their lives cannot ever be restored.

    We can't change that.
    What can be changed?

    I believe that if the steps by which a war came about, that resulted in Germany's invasion of Stalingrad, can be fully understood, those same dynamics can be avoided in the future.

    The more recent history of US foreign interventions in numerous states since World War 2 persuade me that the USA has not fully investigated those actions -- its own actions as well as those of others, both allied and adversarial. As a result the USA is making extremely destructive foreign policy choices that are costing the lives of millions of other people.

    I just started reading "FDR" by Jean Edward Smith. It's 1917, FDR is assistant secretary of Navy and Woodrow Wilson has just spoken to Congress and urged that US must involve itself in the war against Germany.

    Smith wrote, somewhat off-handedly, that "the blockade of German ports was having dreadful effects" among the German people.
    Next, Smith recounts how Germany decided to mobilize its submarine fleet and renew attacks on shipping in the North Sea. The tonnage sunk is detailed; Herbert Hoover is quoted regarding the dwindling inventory of grain in Britain and warning that unless shipping can be conducted safely, Britain may have to drop out of the fight lest its people starve. Smith devotes paragraphs and pages to FDR's plan and implementation of a mining operation -- -- the open seas would be mined as a net against German submarines. Such activity was illegal under the laws of the sea then in effect but the British and the Wilson administration acquiesced. "We can't seem to convince the Germans to stop attacking our ships," the leaders argued.

    But author Smith does not provide a fuller discussion of the starvation of German civilians that is taking place as a result of the Allied blockade of Germany, a blockade that included foodstuffs, which in itself is a gross violation of the laws of war.

    This is a significant omission. The same omission appears in almost every history of World War I.

    I'm not here to demand that we wring our hands for the poor German civilians who starved to death. Like Stalingrad, that's over; it can't be changed. The point I'm trying to make is larger than that:

    In World War I the Allies used illegal attacks on civilians --i.e. they imposed starvation on civilians-- to win a war.


    Presently, the USA and its allies are using similar illegal attacks on civilians to win a war: in the 1990s the USA led a coalition that imposed sanctions on Iraq that caused the death-by-starvation of a million people, half of them children. That softening-up phase was followed by full-blown invasion and destruction of a people, functioning state and culture.

    A few weeks ago Robert Kagan participated in a conversation with Rosa Brooks and others about the Iran deal and sanctions on Iran. https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/09/14/the-e-r-podcast-american-power-at-a-crossroads-rothkopf-brooks-schake-kagan/

    Kagan said: (@ 14 min)

    Take the Iran deal, for instance.
    Look, this was an act of american hegemony. it assumes that its our business whether iran gets a nuclear weapon or not.
    why?
    why is it our business whether iran gets a nuclear weapon?
    they’re probably not going to fire it at us. but because we feel we have extended commitments so therefore it’s our business.

    second, what do we do, ok we didn’t use force, what did we do? we bludgeoned them with brutal economic sanctions lowered their standard of living, maybe made people hungry. we used our control of the international financial systems to bludgeon them into this deal. that is an act of hegemonic behavior that assumes as i say that it’s our business, that we have a right to do it
     
    The important points within Kagan's comments are these:

    1. Nothing that Iran is doing vis a vis the USA justifies or legitimizes US actions against Iran. (see, for example, Mary Ellen O'Connell The Prohibition on the Use of Force for Arms Control: The Case of Iran’s Nuclear Program. )

    2. A case can be made that sanctions in themselves are acts of war. Courts in the EU have ruled that sanctions against Iran are illegal. (see EU Courts and Sanctions.

    3. As Kagan said, "Look, this was an act of American hegemony."

    Vansittart, quoted earlier, urged the World War II destruction of the German people to protect British hegemony in Europe. Mission accomplished: Germany was destroyed -- but so was the British empire.

    Jeffrey Engel analyzed the decision-making behind G H W Bush's Persian Gulf war. Engel said:

    "We should be frank about what moved them to act. It was NOT the argument that Kuwaiti independence mattered much at all.
    Neither was it that Hussein’s particular brand of evil and tyranny required an American response. Nor was Bush persuaded that Iraq’s aggression carried immediate concerns, or that Iraq might someday turn its oil wealth into dangerous weapons of mass destruction. . . .
    None, however, not freedom, evil, human rights, democracy or WMDs affected his thinking in those first fateful days of August.
    Bush was instead, and this is important, Bush was instead persuaded by the growing realization that he stood at a pivot moment in the course of history.

    Bush saw within it a chance to demonstrate that Washington would continue to lead. Leading it in particular towards the kind of world promised to His generation as their reward for service in World War 2. . . .
    Ultimately this vision of a new world order based on sovereignty and stability is what drove his thinking when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. In a similar vein he said, “The prospect of a global peace continues to depend on an American forward presence.
     
    In short, in the new unipolar world, G H W Bush acted to establish American hegemony. Iraq was destroyed, first by starvation, then by invasion and devastation, akin to the destruction of Germany in World War 2.

    Robert Kagan wants to do the same thing to Iran, for the same reasons -- American hegemony -- and with the same disdain for the laws of international order and rule of law as was demonstrated

    ~by the British when they blockaded Germany, causing the starvation of 800,000 civilians and the capitulation of Germany;

    ~by FDR when he arranged for the mining of international waters;

    ~by FDR when he arranged for the firebombing of German cities and civilians;

    ~by G H W Bush when he sanctioned to death a million Iraqis, followed by a wholly illicit invasion of Iraq carried out by his son;

    ~by sanctions against Iran that are intended to "make some people hungry", ideally, hungry enough to cause either the capitulation of the Iranian government or the submission of Iran to American hegemony.

    If you don't want another Stalingrad, Avery, figure out the dynamic that made it possible and stop it from happening again; figure out what was the first domino to fall, who pushed it, and what was the theory and legitimacy of the policy that motivated that process?

    One more thought: it would be interesting to test the hypothesis that Woodrow Wilson and FDR led a radical departure from the sort of rules- and mutual respect-based prescriptions for foreign relations set down by George Washington in his Farewell Address.

    Which of these men pledged his Life, his Fortune, his Sacred Honor to the well-being of the American people:

    Robert Kagan
    George Bush
    George H W Bush
    Franklin D Roosevelt
    Woodrow Wilson
    George Washington ?

    Whose United States do you want to live in?

    PS The rejection/resignation of Kevin McCarthy from consideration for the Speakership, and the endorsement of Daniel Webster for that position marks a sea-change in the temper of the House.

    McCarthy was — and is — a transactional candidate; his appeal is based on the money-and-influence networks he can tap. He’s an ambitious pol whose strength is knowing how to play the game; like the football player he was, he sees things in terms of Winning as the Only Thing.

    FDR was very much in that mold, and it may be that US entry into WWI was nudged along by FDR’s ambition and hot-headed taste for prominence, dominance, and hyper-activity.

    Webster is probably boring. His record in Florida demonstrates an ability to make good policy for his constituents and to bring his colleagues together to carry out the best interests of the people.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Avery
    "Your point?"

    My point is that Nazi troops were deep inside Soviet Union.
    What business did Nazi troops have in Stalingrad, deep inside Soviet Union.
    Nobody invited them in: they invaded.

    All your other other explanations, justifications,.....,England, FDR, Kristol, etc, etc, are irrelevant misdirection. I don't care what Kristol said, or that FDR lied.
    Nothing to do with USSR.
    We are discussing invasion of USSR, not Hitler's beef with England.
    Nazi Gemany _invaded_ USSR: as a result of which 10s of millions of Soviet citizens were KIA or murdered by Nazis invaders.
    Most of those who lost their lives as a result of Nazi invasion of USSR were Slavs.

    That's the point.

    All your other other explanations, justifications,…..,England, FDR, Kristol, etc, etc, are irrelevant misdirection. I don’t care what Kristol said, or that FDR lied.
    Nothing to do with USSR.

    Here’s my point, and one upon which I hope we can agree:

    That Germany invaded Stalingrad cannot be changed. It happened. It was horrible. Many people died. Their lives cannot ever be restored.

    We can’t change that.
    What can be changed?

    I believe that if the steps by which a war came about, that resulted in Germany’s invasion of Stalingrad, can be fully understood, those same dynamics can be avoided in the future.

    The more recent history of US foreign interventions in numerous states since World War 2 persuade me that the USA has not fully investigated those actions — its own actions as well as those of others, both allied and adversarial. As a result the USA is making extremely destructive foreign policy choices that are costing the lives of millions of other people.

    I just started reading “FDR” by Jean Edward Smith. It’s 1917, FDR is assistant secretary of Navy and Woodrow Wilson has just spoken to Congress and urged that US must involve itself in the war against Germany.

    Smith wrote, somewhat off-handedly, that “the blockade of German ports was having dreadful effects” among the German people.
    Next, Smith recounts how Germany decided to mobilize its submarine fleet and renew attacks on shipping in the North Sea. The tonnage sunk is detailed; Herbert Hoover is quoted regarding the dwindling inventory of grain in Britain and warning that unless shipping can be conducted safely, Britain may have to drop out of the fight lest its people starve. Smith devotes paragraphs and pages to FDR’s plan and implementation of a mining operation — – the open seas would be mined as a net against German submarines. Such activity was illegal under the laws of the sea then in effect but the British and the Wilson administration acquiesced. “We can’t seem to convince the Germans to stop attacking our ships,” the leaders argued.

    But author Smith does not provide a fuller discussion of the starvation of German civilians that is taking place as a result of the Allied blockade of Germany, a blockade that included foodstuffs, which in itself is a gross violation of the laws of war.

    This is a significant omission. The same omission appears in almost every history of World War I.

    I’m not here to demand that we wring our hands for the poor German civilians who starved to death. Like Stalingrad, that’s over; it can’t be changed. The point I’m trying to make is larger than that:

    In World War I the Allies used illegal attacks on civilians –i.e. they imposed starvation on civilians– to win a war.

    Presently, the USA and its allies are using similar illegal attacks on civilians to win a war: in the 1990s the USA led a coalition that imposed sanctions on Iraq that caused the death-by-starvation of a million people, half of them children. That softening-up phase was followed by full-blown invasion and destruction of a people, functioning state and culture.

    A few weeks ago Robert Kagan participated in a conversation with Rosa Brooks and others about the Iran deal and sanctions on Iran. https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/09/14/the-e-r-podcast-american-power-at-a-crossroads-rothkopf-brooks-schake-kagan/

    Kagan said: (@ 14 min)

    Take the Iran deal, for instance.
    Look, this was an act of american hegemony. it assumes that its our business whether iran gets a nuclear weapon or not.
    why?
    why is it our business whether iran gets a nuclear weapon?
    they’re probably not going to fire it at us. but because we feel we have extended commitments so therefore it’s our business.

    second, what do we do, ok we didn’t use force, what did we do? we bludgeoned them with brutal economic sanctions lowered their standard of living, maybe made people hungry. we used our control of the international financial systems to bludgeon them into this deal. that is an act of hegemonic behavior that assumes as i say that it’s our business, that we have a right to do it

    The important points within Kagan’s comments are these:

    1. Nothing that Iran is doing vis a vis the USA justifies or legitimizes US actions against Iran. (see, for example, Mary Ellen O’Connell The Prohibition on the Use of Force for Arms Control: The Case of Iran’s Nuclear Program. )

    2. A case can be made that sanctions in themselves are acts of war. Courts in the EU have ruled that sanctions against Iran are illegal. (see EU Courts and Sanctions.

    3. As Kagan said, “Look, this was an act of American hegemony.”

    Vansittart, quoted earlier, urged the World War II destruction of the German people to protect British hegemony in Europe. Mission accomplished: Germany was destroyed — but so was the British empire.

    Jeffrey Engel analyzed the decision-making behind G H W Bush’s Persian Gulf war. Engel said:

    “We should be frank about what moved them to act. It was NOT the argument that Kuwaiti independence mattered much at all.
    Neither was it that Hussein’s particular brand of evil and tyranny required an American response. Nor was Bush persuaded that Iraq’s aggression carried immediate concerns, or that Iraq might someday turn its oil wealth into dangerous weapons of mass destruction. . . .
    None, however, not freedom, evil, human rights, democracy or WMDs affected his thinking in those first fateful days of August.
    Bush was instead, and this is important, Bush was instead persuaded by the growing realization that he stood at a pivot moment in the course of history.

    Bush saw within it a chance to demonstrate that Washington would continue to lead. Leading it in particular towards the kind of world promised to His generation as their reward for service in World War 2. . . .
    Ultimately this vision of a new world order based on sovereignty and stability is what drove his thinking when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. In a similar vein he said, “The prospect of a global peace continues to depend on an American forward presence.

    In short, in the new unipolar world, G H W Bush acted to establish American hegemony. Iraq was destroyed, first by starvation, then by invasion and devastation, akin to the destruction of Germany in World War 2.

    Robert Kagan wants to do the same thing to Iran, for the same reasons — American hegemony — and with the same disdain for the laws of international order and rule of law as was demonstrated

    ~by the British when they blockaded Germany, causing the starvation of 800,000 civilians and the capitulation of Germany;

    ~by FDR when he arranged for the mining of international waters;

    ~by FDR when he arranged for the firebombing of German cities and civilians;

    ~by G H W Bush when he sanctioned to death a million Iraqis, followed by a wholly illicit invasion of Iraq carried out by his son;

    ~by sanctions against Iran that are intended to “make some people hungry”, ideally, hungry enough to cause either the capitulation of the Iranian government or the submission of Iran to American hegemony.

    If you don’t want another Stalingrad, Avery, figure out the dynamic that made it possible and stop it from happening again; figure out what was the first domino to fall, who pushed it, and what was the theory and legitimacy of the policy that motivated that process?

    One more thought: it would be interesting to test the hypothesis that Woodrow Wilson and FDR led a radical departure from the sort of rules- and mutual respect-based prescriptions for foreign relations set down by George Washington in his Farewell Address.

    Which of these men pledged his Life, his Fortune, his Sacred Honor to the well-being of the American people:

    Robert Kagan
    George Bush
    George H W Bush
    Franklin D Roosevelt
    Woodrow Wilson
    George Washington ?

    Whose United States do you want to live in?

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    PS The rejection/resignation of Kevin McCarthy from consideration for the Speakership, and the endorsement of Daniel Webster for that position marks a sea-change in the temper of the House.

    McCarthy was -- and is -- a transactional candidate; his appeal is based on the money-and-influence networks he can tap. He's an ambitious pol whose strength is knowing how to play the game; like the football player he was, he sees things in terms of Winning as the Only Thing.

    FDR was very much in that mold, and it may be that US entry into WWI was nudged along by FDR's ambition and hot-headed taste for prominence, dominance, and hyper-activity.

    Webster is probably boring. His record in Florida demonstrates an ability to make good policy for his constituents and to bring his colleagues together to carry out the best interests of the people.
    , @geokat62

    If you don’t want another Stalingrad, Avery, figure out the dynamic that made it possible and stop it from happening again...
     
    With all due respect, S2C, there is no mystery as to the dynamic that made WWII possible. It is the same dynamic that made WWI possible and every conflict that came before it and every conflict that will come after it. It is power... plain and simple. If a state thinks it has the power to advance its interests by force, it will do so. No mystery there. The challenge, of course, is to somehow restrain that power by the imposition of international law. It's been tried before with the establishment of both the UN and the ICC. As I've commented before, I don't believe these institutions have had much success in restraining aggressive nations from attacking other nations. There was some hope with the Nuremberg Tribunals but that dream vanished into thin air when the neocons/Israel Firsters got the US to launch its illegal wars against 7 Muslim countries in 5 years.

    So rather than waste any more ink on who did what to whom before, during, and after WWII, perhaps the focus of these discussions should be on whether and how international law can be made more effective in restraining the powerful. I, for one, have my doubts.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Avery
    "Your point?"

    My point is that Nazi troops were deep inside Soviet Union.
    What business did Nazi troops have in Stalingrad, deep inside Soviet Union.
    Nobody invited them in: they invaded.

    All your other other explanations, justifications,.....,England, FDR, Kristol, etc, etc, are irrelevant misdirection. I don't care what Kristol said, or that FDR lied.
    Nothing to do with USSR.
    We are discussing invasion of USSR, not Hitler's beef with England.
    Nazi Gemany _invaded_ USSR: as a result of which 10s of millions of Soviet citizens were KIA or murdered by Nazis invaders.
    Most of those who lost their lives as a result of Nazi invasion of USSR were Slavs.

    That's the point.

    Well said. Misdirection is precisely his objective. @S2C harbours a deep hatred for Jews. For if one were to follow the misdirections, one would arrive at his unchanging conclusions, which are: FDR under the influence of a Jewish spell attacked Germany. Germany was being deluged by a sea of Jewish Bolsheviks and Hitler the pacifist-nationalist leader of great foresight, simply wished to humanely remove the Jews from Germany and offered a peaceful solution to all. Did I miss anything? Oh yes I did. The Russians raped millions of German women. Really, he did not need to write quite so many pages.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus

    Wanted or not, Nazi Germany _did_ invade USSR: Yes or No ?
     
    1. In World War I Pres. Wilson sent US troops to Siberia in a scheme to vanquish Bolshevism, which many American leaders and other world leaders perceived as a looming threat to Europe.

    The USA _did_ invade USSR years before Nazi Germany did, for the same reasons as Hitler invaded Russia -- to vanquish Bolshevik Communism .
    http://www.amazon.com/When-United-States-Invaded-Russia/dp/1442219890/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1444392774&sr=8-1&keywords=when+us+invaded+russia

    2. Post-WW2 the USA spent 45 years attempting to destroy Soviet Communism. In the process the USA and its anti-Communist allies created turmoil and bloodshed, and caused the loss of many lives and futures in Cuba, Iran, Germany, Italy, and others.

    It is a mystery to me why FDR and Churchill allied with Josef Stalin, who had already murdered tens of millions of Russians and Ukrainians, against Germany, whose stated goals had been to destroy Bolshevik Communism, which is exactly what Wilson set out to do during WWI and is exactly the crusade the USA committed so much blood and treasure to after WW2.

    If USA knew, as it surely must have, that Bolshevik Communism was such a threat, why not stand aside and let the Germans and the Russians duke it out, as Herbert Hoover argued incessantly should be done, whereupon "a century of peace" would prevail over Europe? (see Hoover's "Freedom Betrayed")

    2. Or did Nazi Germany invade USSR?

    From out of the sea of details, a coherent thesis emerges: Stalin dragged Hitler into war to force Europe into chaos and facilitate a communist revolution on the continent. According to Shauli, there is evidence to back up this theory, including a speech by Stalin himself as well as a report obtained by the U.S. Consulate in Prague. . . .

    The report has been mentioned here and there over the years, but it has never been published, because no one knows where it is today.
    Shauli, 59, believed that the definitive evidence was out there, hiding somewhere. He believed, and did not give up, repeatedly setting out to find it, going as far as Washington. No one is happier than he is today: The document is in his possession, and now the history of World War II may have to be rewritten: It was Stalin's fault.

    The document, from October 1939, consists of three pages in English that purportedly reflect a dialogue in Moscow between a delegation from Czechoslovakia and a senior Soviet Foreign Ministry official. The Czechs tried to find out why the U.S.S.R. had signed the nonaggression treaty with Nazi Germany, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of August 1939. A few days later the Germans invaded Poland, and World War II began.

    The Soviet official, Alexandrov by name, explained to the Czech delegation that had the Soviet Union signed an agreement with the West, Hitler would not have dared to launch a war, and without that war there would have been no possibility of imposing communism in Europe. He also listed the benefits to the Soviet Union of the pact with Nazi Germany, and of the war.

    The veracity of the document must be proved, and even if it turns out to be genuine, its significance is worthy of debate. Mischa Shauli is continuing his investigation. No, he said this week, he does not fear that shifting responsibility for the war from Hitler to Stalin "acquits" Hitler; he is responsible for other crimes.

    Stalin Was to Blame for Starting World War II, Haaretz, 2007

     

    Suvorov makes the same argument and takes it to its logical conclusion: Operation Barbarossa was the line of defense that Hitler and the German army erected against a Bolshevik Communist takeover of Europe.

    bitte

    Nazi troops came within a few miles of Moscow: Yes or No ?
     
    Yes

    Nazi troops were defeated at Stalingrad, a couple of 1000 miles from Berlin: Yes or No ?
     
    Yes

    Your point?

    Whatever Hitler ‘wanted’ or not, is irrelevant and impossible to prove.
     
    Disagree on both counts.
    It is extremely important to understand the history with as much accuracy as possible.

    My argument is that the entire story has not been told, and that it is essential to tell that story not to make Germans feel good -- I am not German, have no German family etc., nothing: justice as well as an accurate rendering of history as the basis for sound foreign policy requires accurate information.

    That is the message of Croesus: If you misinterpret the prophecy (or history), decisions made on that faulty understanding can destroy your nation.

    The history of World War 2 that the American people are force-fed is wildly inaccurate, and the policies the USA has pursued based on that wildly inaccurate version of history have got us where we are today: The USA starves whole nations and destroys their economy for no good reason and calls it diplomacy.

    Fact: Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa.
    Fact: Hitler invaded USSR.
     
    Again, what's your point?
    The time to stop atrocities are before the war starts. Germany did all it could to avoid war. As Kristol said, and other histories demonstrate, FDR and Churchill were hell-bent for war. Once engaged, Germany fought it ferociously. What options did they have?

    It should be added that the Allies war effort broke far more rules of war, and committed far more war crimes than did the Germans. That, also, is a fact that the exceptional nation would do well to come to terms with.

    Is what Hitler wrote and spoke about Lebensraum fact or fiction ?
    End of story
     
    You disappoint, Avery; I thought you were more astute than a black-and-white, cartoon version of history, particularly a history that is the basis for so much of USA exceptionalist self-regard and subsequent activity in the world.

    What was the context of the lebensraum concept, do you know? Have you probed it? Do you have an awareness of what problems the German government sought to resolve by expanding to the East?

    etc

    etc

    etc

    ---

    Niall Ferguson has experimented with several counterfactual histories of Europe-England in the 20th century and formed the notion that the British and Continental Europe would have been better off if the British had stayed out of World War I and had made peace with Hitler rather than pursue World War2 and the misbegotten treaty with Poland.

    Have you ever thought about that history along those lines?

    What Ferguson conjectures seems so obviously true.

    If it is the case, as the documentary evidence proves, that Germany offered numerous, more-than-fair proposals to resolve the conflict with Poland; and that Germany offered numerous and more-than-generous peace proposals to the British, why were those offers rejected?

    As Irving Kristol stated in 1987 (quoted in earlier comment), "FDR lied, deceived and manipulated to go to war against Germany. . . . FDR provoked Japan and Germany" in order to get a war on.

    WHY?

    What had Germany done to USA at that time?
    What were FDR's motives?
    Was FDR's decision-making grounded in the prescriptions of US Founders, or did he diverge from the foundational principles of the USA Constitutional republic?
    What motivated Churchill?

    btw -- Irving Kristol's comment in 1987 -- "thank god FDR lied, deceived and manipulated to involve USA in war against Germany," especially when placed next to Jeffrey Herf's comment, "No war, no final solution," presents an enigma: Did Kristol think that bringing on the event that enabled the (alleged) holocaust of Jews was something the gods should be thanked for? Or did Kristol have the more accurate view of WW2, which is that it was a holocaust of the German people, for which Kristol "thanked god." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPaCEFl-Zzg
    -----

    Others on this forum are engaging in retelling of emotional stories about events in the war.

    Historian Thomas Fleming cited the work of his friend Michael Kammen, and observed that it takes several generations -- perhaps 100 years -- to gain the distance required for an objective history of events. Fleming said that earlier, immediate histories lack scope and clarity because they are emotionally charged, and based on memory rather than evidence critically assessed. http://www.c-span.org/video/?164982-1/book-discussion-new-dealers-war

    “Your point?”

    My point is that Nazi troops were deep inside Soviet Union.
    What business did Nazi troops have in Stalingrad, deep inside Soviet Union.
    Nobody invited them in: they invaded.

    All your other other explanations, justifications,…..,England, FDR, Kristol, etc, etc, are irrelevant misdirection. I don’t care what Kristol said, or that FDR lied.
    Nothing to do with USSR.
    We are discussing invasion of USSR, not Hitler’s beef with England.
    Nazi Gemany _invaded_ USSR: as a result of which 10s of millions of Soviet citizens were KIA or murdered by Nazis invaders.
    Most of those who lost their lives as a result of Nazi invasion of USSR were Slavs.

    That’s the point.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Well said. Misdirection is precisely his objective. @S2C harbours a deep hatred for Jews. For if one were to follow the misdirections, one would arrive at his unchanging conclusions, which are: FDR under the influence of a Jewish spell attacked Germany. Germany was being deluged by a sea of Jewish Bolsheviks and Hitler the pacifist-nationalist leader of great foresight, simply wished to humanely remove the Jews from Germany and offered a peaceful solution to all. Did I miss anything? Oh yes I did. The Russians raped millions of German women. Really, he did not need to write quite so many pages.
    , @SolontoCroesus

    All your other other explanations, justifications,…..,England, FDR, Kristol, etc, etc, are irrelevant misdirection. I don’t care what Kristol said, or that FDR lied.
    Nothing to do with USSR.
     
    Here's my point, and one upon which I hope we can agree:

    That Germany invaded Stalingrad cannot be changed. It happened. It was horrible. Many people died. Their lives cannot ever be restored.

    We can't change that.
    What can be changed?

    I believe that if the steps by which a war came about, that resulted in Germany's invasion of Stalingrad, can be fully understood, those same dynamics can be avoided in the future.

    The more recent history of US foreign interventions in numerous states since World War 2 persuade me that the USA has not fully investigated those actions -- its own actions as well as those of others, both allied and adversarial. As a result the USA is making extremely destructive foreign policy choices that are costing the lives of millions of other people.

    I just started reading "FDR" by Jean Edward Smith. It's 1917, FDR is assistant secretary of Navy and Woodrow Wilson has just spoken to Congress and urged that US must involve itself in the war against Germany.

    Smith wrote, somewhat off-handedly, that "the blockade of German ports was having dreadful effects" among the German people.
    Next, Smith recounts how Germany decided to mobilize its submarine fleet and renew attacks on shipping in the North Sea. The tonnage sunk is detailed; Herbert Hoover is quoted regarding the dwindling inventory of grain in Britain and warning that unless shipping can be conducted safely, Britain may have to drop out of the fight lest its people starve. Smith devotes paragraphs and pages to FDR's plan and implementation of a mining operation -- -- the open seas would be mined as a net against German submarines. Such activity was illegal under the laws of the sea then in effect but the British and the Wilson administration acquiesced. "We can't seem to convince the Germans to stop attacking our ships," the leaders argued.

    But author Smith does not provide a fuller discussion of the starvation of German civilians that is taking place as a result of the Allied blockade of Germany, a blockade that included foodstuffs, which in itself is a gross violation of the laws of war.

    This is a significant omission. The same omission appears in almost every history of World War I.

    I'm not here to demand that we wring our hands for the poor German civilians who starved to death. Like Stalingrad, that's over; it can't be changed. The point I'm trying to make is larger than that:

    In World War I the Allies used illegal attacks on civilians --i.e. they imposed starvation on civilians-- to win a war.


    Presently, the USA and its allies are using similar illegal attacks on civilians to win a war: in the 1990s the USA led a coalition that imposed sanctions on Iraq that caused the death-by-starvation of a million people, half of them children. That softening-up phase was followed by full-blown invasion and destruction of a people, functioning state and culture.

    A few weeks ago Robert Kagan participated in a conversation with Rosa Brooks and others about the Iran deal and sanctions on Iran. https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/09/14/the-e-r-podcast-american-power-at-a-crossroads-rothkopf-brooks-schake-kagan/

    Kagan said: (@ 14 min)

    Take the Iran deal, for instance.
    Look, this was an act of american hegemony. it assumes that its our business whether iran gets a nuclear weapon or not.
    why?
    why is it our business whether iran gets a nuclear weapon?
    they’re probably not going to fire it at us. but because we feel we have extended commitments so therefore it’s our business.

    second, what do we do, ok we didn’t use force, what did we do? we bludgeoned them with brutal economic sanctions lowered their standard of living, maybe made people hungry. we used our control of the international financial systems to bludgeon them into this deal. that is an act of hegemonic behavior that assumes as i say that it’s our business, that we have a right to do it
     
    The important points within Kagan's comments are these:

    1. Nothing that Iran is doing vis a vis the USA justifies or legitimizes US actions against Iran. (see, for example, Mary Ellen O'Connell The Prohibition on the Use of Force for Arms Control: The Case of Iran’s Nuclear Program. )

    2. A case can be made that sanctions in themselves are acts of war. Courts in the EU have ruled that sanctions against Iran are illegal. (see EU Courts and Sanctions.

    3. As Kagan said, "Look, this was an act of American hegemony."

    Vansittart, quoted earlier, urged the World War II destruction of the German people to protect British hegemony in Europe. Mission accomplished: Germany was destroyed -- but so was the British empire.

    Jeffrey Engel analyzed the decision-making behind G H W Bush's Persian Gulf war. Engel said:

    "We should be frank about what moved them to act. It was NOT the argument that Kuwaiti independence mattered much at all.
    Neither was it that Hussein’s particular brand of evil and tyranny required an American response. Nor was Bush persuaded that Iraq’s aggression carried immediate concerns, or that Iraq might someday turn its oil wealth into dangerous weapons of mass destruction. . . .
    None, however, not freedom, evil, human rights, democracy or WMDs affected his thinking in those first fateful days of August.
    Bush was instead, and this is important, Bush was instead persuaded by the growing realization that he stood at a pivot moment in the course of history.

    Bush saw within it a chance to demonstrate that Washington would continue to lead. Leading it in particular towards the kind of world promised to His generation as their reward for service in World War 2. . . .
    Ultimately this vision of a new world order based on sovereignty and stability is what drove his thinking when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. In a similar vein he said, “The prospect of a global peace continues to depend on an American forward presence.
     
    In short, in the new unipolar world, G H W Bush acted to establish American hegemony. Iraq was destroyed, first by starvation, then by invasion and devastation, akin to the destruction of Germany in World War 2.

    Robert Kagan wants to do the same thing to Iran, for the same reasons -- American hegemony -- and with the same disdain for the laws of international order and rule of law as was demonstrated

    ~by the British when they blockaded Germany, causing the starvation of 800,000 civilians and the capitulation of Germany;

    ~by FDR when he arranged for the mining of international waters;

    ~by FDR when he arranged for the firebombing of German cities and civilians;

    ~by G H W Bush when he sanctioned to death a million Iraqis, followed by a wholly illicit invasion of Iraq carried out by his son;

    ~by sanctions against Iran that are intended to "make some people hungry", ideally, hungry enough to cause either the capitulation of the Iranian government or the submission of Iran to American hegemony.

    If you don't want another Stalingrad, Avery, figure out the dynamic that made it possible and stop it from happening again; figure out what was the first domino to fall, who pushed it, and what was the theory and legitimacy of the policy that motivated that process?

    One more thought: it would be interesting to test the hypothesis that Woodrow Wilson and FDR led a radical departure from the sort of rules- and mutual respect-based prescriptions for foreign relations set down by George Washington in his Farewell Address.

    Which of these men pledged his Life, his Fortune, his Sacred Honor to the well-being of the American people:

    Robert Kagan
    George Bush
    George H W Bush
    Franklin D Roosevelt
    Woodrow Wilson
    George Washington ?

    Whose United States do you want to live in?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Kiza
    I, for one fully, agree with you Sam and with Robin that people should not be imprisoned for questioning an "established truth", no matter how holly an issue is. That much, if someone said that my two stories from WW2 were a lie, I would not get offended. They were told to me by my late grandmother (about her brother hanged by the Germans and about a German soldier who did not report them for hiding food) and I have no hard proof (there are records about the hanging). If someone chooses not to believe them, well ok. Forcing anyone to believe something is inherently wrong.

    Thank you for sharing a story of your family from Ukraine. We should tell such stories to our children and friends, to help them understand the importance of a survival, personal choice, decisions and the (small but significant) difference everyone can make.

    When I watch movies about Vietnam (e.g. Full Metal Jacket), I wish I could have been a chaplain to tell the young US soldiers not to do what they may regret and have nightmares about for the rest of their lives (ask almost any Vietnam Vet). Ditto for any other ongoing US war. Resist the regime or suffer for the rest of your life, if you have any residual humanity in you.

    When I watch movies about Vietnam (e.g. Full Metal Jacket), I wish I could have been a chaplain to tell the young US soldiers not to do what they may regret and have nightmares about for the rest of their lives (ask almost any Vietnam Vet). Ditto for any other ongoing US war. Resist the regime or suffer for the rest of your life, if you have any residual humanity in you.

    Truly important observation, Kiza. I can tell you that today, the morale of a not insignificant proportion of the IDF is adversely affected by similar actions, even worse actually in some ways, since the military is tasked to confront and contain a civilian population, something they were not trained for. In the U.S. though, and I am confounded by this, I meet more young military personnel who display no understanding or qualms about the harm militaries inflict. Its almost robotic, their attitudes.

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    • Replies: @geokat62

    I can tell you that today, the morale of a not insignificant proportion of the IDF is adversely affected by similar actions, even worse actually in some ways, since the military is tasked to confront and contain a civilian population, something they were not trained for.
     
    Good on you, Sam, for your honesty. Trouble is, for every Sam Shama there are scores of Zionists (e.g., Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Scooter Libby, Elliot Abrams, Eliot Cohen, Victoria Nuland, Robert Kagan, Michael Ledeen, William Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, Charles Krauthammer, David Frum, Jennifer Rubin, Michael Rubin, Frederick Kagan etc.) who have no compunction about promoting a policy of remaking the ME by regime changing those regimes that are deemed to be enemies of the Zionist project. They also have no compunction about misleading the goy into believing all the wars are meant to keep them safe from those evil terrorists.

    The blood of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of innocent people is on their hands. If this madness isn't stopped soon, a backlash cannot be too far behind.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Avery
    Wanted or not, Nazi Germany _did_ invade USSR: Yes or No ?
    Nazi troops came within a few miles of Moscow: Yes or No ?
    Nazi troops were defeated at Stalingrad, a couple of 1000 miles from Berlin: Yes or No ?

    Whatever Hitler 'wanted' or not, is irrelevant and impossible to prove.
    Fact: Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa.
    Fact: Hitler invaded USSR.
    Is what Hitler wrote and spoke about Lebensraum fact or fiction ?
    End of story.

    Wanted or not, Nazi Germany _did_ invade USSR: Yes or No ?

    1. In World War I Pres. Wilson sent US troops to Siberia in a scheme to vanquish Bolshevism, which many American leaders and other world leaders perceived as a looming threat to Europe.

    The USA _did_ invade USSR years before Nazi Germany did, for the same reasons as Hitler invaded Russia — to vanquish Bolshevik Communism .

    http://www.amazon.com/When-United-States-Invaded-Russia/dp/1442219890/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1444392774&sr=8-1&keywords=when+us+invaded+russia

    2. Post-WW2 the USA spent 45 years attempting to destroy Soviet Communism. In the process the USA and its anti-Communist allies created turmoil and bloodshed, and caused the loss of many lives and futures in Cuba, Iran, Germany, Italy, and others.

    It is a mystery to me why FDR and Churchill allied with Josef Stalin, who had already murdered tens of millions of Russians and Ukrainians, against Germany, whose stated goals had been to destroy Bolshevik Communism, which is exactly what Wilson set out to do during WWI and is exactly the crusade the USA committed so much blood and treasure to after WW2.

    If USA knew, as it surely must have, that Bolshevik Communism was such a threat, why not stand aside and let the Germans and the Russians duke it out, as Herbert Hoover argued incessantly should be done, whereupon “a century of peace” would prevail over Europe? (see Hoover’s “Freedom Betrayed”)

    2. Or did Nazi Germany invade USSR?

    [MORE]

    From out of the sea of details, a coherent thesis emerges: Stalin dragged Hitler into war to force Europe into chaos and facilitate a communist revolution on the continent. According to Shauli, there is evidence to back up this theory, including a speech by Stalin himself as well as a report obtained by the U.S. Consulate in Prague. . . .

    The report has been mentioned here and there over the years, but it has never been published, because no one knows where it is today.
    Shauli, 59, believed that the definitive evidence was out there, hiding somewhere. He believed, and did not give up, repeatedly setting out to find it, going as far as Washington. No one is happier than he is today: The document is in his possession, and now the history of World War II may have to be rewritten: It was Stalin’s fault.

    The document, from October 1939, consists of three pages in English that purportedly reflect a dialogue in Moscow between a delegation from Czechoslovakia and a senior Soviet Foreign Ministry official. The Czechs tried to find out why the U.S.S.R. had signed the nonaggression treaty with Nazi Germany, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of August 1939. A few days later the Germans invaded Poland, and World War II began.

    The Soviet official, Alexandrov by name, explained to the Czech delegation that had the Soviet Union signed an agreement with the West, Hitler would not have dared to launch a war, and without that war there would have been no possibility of imposing communism in Europe. He also listed the benefits to the Soviet Union of the pact with Nazi Germany, and of the war.

    The veracity of the document must be proved, and even if it turns out to be genuine, its significance is worthy of debate. Mischa Shauli is continuing his investigation. No, he said this week, he does not fear that shifting responsibility for the war from Hitler to Stalin “acquits” Hitler; he is responsible for other crimes.

    Stalin Was to Blame for Starting World War II, Haaretz, 2007

    Suvorov makes the same argument and takes it to its logical conclusion: Operation Barbarossa was the line of defense that Hitler and the German army erected against a Bolshevik Communist takeover of Europe.

    bitte

    Nazi troops came within a few miles of Moscow: Yes or No ?

    Yes

    Nazi troops were defeated at Stalingrad, a couple of 1000 miles from Berlin: Yes or No ?

    Yes

    Your point?

    Whatever Hitler ‘wanted’ or not, is irrelevant and impossible to prove.

    Disagree on both counts.
    It is extremely important to understand the history with as much accuracy as possible.

    My argument is that the entire story has not been told, and that it is essential to tell that story not to make Germans feel good — I am not German, have no German family etc., nothing: justice as well as an accurate rendering of history as the basis for sound foreign policy requires accurate information.

    That is the message of Croesus: If you misinterpret the prophecy (or history), decisions made on that faulty understanding can destroy your nation.

    The history of World War 2 that the American people are force-fed is wildly inaccurate, and the policies the USA has pursued based on that wildly inaccurate version of history have got us where we are today: The USA starves whole nations and destroys their economy for no good reason and calls it diplomacy.

    Fact: Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa.
    Fact: Hitler invaded USSR.

    Again, what’s your point?
    The time to stop atrocities are before the war starts. Germany did all it could to avoid war. As Kristol said, and other histories demonstrate, FDR and Churchill were hell-bent for war. Once engaged, Germany fought it ferociously. What options did they have?

    It should be added that the Allies war effort broke far more rules of war, and committed far more war crimes than did the Germans. That, also, is a fact that the exceptional nation would do well to come to terms with.

    Is what Hitler wrote and spoke about Lebensraum fact or fiction ?
    End of story

    You disappoint, Avery; I thought you were more astute than a black-and-white, cartoon version of history, particularly a history that is the basis for so much of USA exceptionalist self-regard and subsequent activity in the world.

    What was the context of the lebensraum concept, do you know? Have you probed it? Do you have an awareness of what problems the German government sought to resolve by expanding to the East?

    etc

    etc

    etc

    Niall Ferguson has experimented with several counterfactual histories of Europe-England in the 20th century and formed the notion that the British and Continental Europe would have been better off if the British had stayed out of World War I and had made peace with Hitler rather than pursue World War2 and the misbegotten treaty with Poland.

    Have you ever thought about that history along those lines?

    What Ferguson conjectures seems so obviously true.

    If it is the case, as the documentary evidence proves, that Germany offered numerous, more-than-fair proposals to resolve the conflict with Poland; and that Germany offered numerous and more-than-generous peace proposals to the British, why were those offers rejected?

    As Irving Kristol stated in 1987 (quoted in earlier comment), “FDR lied, deceived and manipulated to go to war against Germany. . . . FDR provoked Japan and Germany” in order to get a war on.

    WHY?

    What had Germany done to USA at that time?
    What were FDR’s motives?
    Was FDR’s decision-making grounded in the prescriptions of US Founders, or did he diverge from the foundational principles of the USA Constitutional republic?
    What motivated Churchill?

    btw — Irving Kristol’s comment in 1987 — “thank god FDR lied, deceived and manipulated to involve USA in war against Germany,” especially when placed next to Jeffrey Herf’s comment, “No war, no final solution,” presents an enigma: Did Kristol think that bringing on the event that enabled the (alleged) holocaust of Jews was something the gods should be thanked for? Or did Kristol have the more accurate view of WW2, which is that it was a holocaust of the German people, for which Kristol “thanked god.”

    —–

    Others on this forum are engaging in retelling of emotional stories about events in the war.

    Historian Thomas Fleming cited the work of his friend Michael Kammen, and observed that it takes several generations — perhaps 100 years — to gain the distance required for an objective history of events. Fleming said that earlier, immediate histories lack scope and clarity because they are emotionally charged, and based on memory rather than evidence critically assessed. http://www.c-span.org/video/?164982-1/book-discussion-new-dealers-war

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    • Replies: @Avery
    "Your point?"

    My point is that Nazi troops were deep inside Soviet Union.
    What business did Nazi troops have in Stalingrad, deep inside Soviet Union.
    Nobody invited them in: they invaded.

    All your other other explanations, justifications,.....,England, FDR, Kristol, etc, etc, are irrelevant misdirection. I don't care what Kristol said, or that FDR lied.
    Nothing to do with USSR.
    We are discussing invasion of USSR, not Hitler's beef with England.
    Nazi Gemany _invaded_ USSR: as a result of which 10s of millions of Soviet citizens were KIA or murdered by Nazis invaders.
    Most of those who lost their lives as a result of Nazi invasion of USSR were Slavs.

    That's the point.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Kiza
    I, for one fully, agree with you Sam and with Robin that people should not be imprisoned for questioning an "established truth", no matter how holly an issue is. That much, if someone said that my two stories from WW2 were a lie, I would not get offended. They were told to me by my late grandmother (about her brother hanged by the Germans and about a German soldier who did not report them for hiding food) and I have no hard proof (there are records about the hanging). If someone chooses not to believe them, well ok. Forcing anyone to believe something is inherently wrong.

    Thank you for sharing a story of your family from Ukraine. We should tell such stories to our children and friends, to help them understand the importance of a survival, personal choice, decisions and the (small but significant) difference everyone can make.

    When I watch movies about Vietnam (e.g. Full Metal Jacket), I wish I could have been a chaplain to tell the young US soldiers not to do what they may regret and have nightmares about for the rest of their lives (ask almost any Vietnam Vet). Ditto for any other ongoing US war. Resist the regime or suffer for the rest of your life, if you have any residual humanity in you.

    Sorry Sam, I was meant to write “your family story from Belarus”.

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  • @Kiza
    Sam, I have to tell another story, for the sake of that balance that you mention.

    In the country I am from, which was smashed up and occupied by Germany, various armies, partisans and paramilitaries were passing through and taking any food they would find and burning crops so that the enemy would have nothing to take. To save the family from hunger, my grandfather hid food supplies underground, mostly potatoes and pork fat in amphorae. At the peak of the war, a large German military unit settled in the town and started collecting food from the locals. Refusing to hand-over food to the German military was a death sentence, but so was handing over food (only slow death instead of being shot). The Germans went from house to house searching for any hidden supplies. Five German soldiers walked into my family's large house with a barn. One German soldier opened a hatch and found the amphorae, but because he saw my grandmother with two little children of around 10 (all three blond, like most Germans) my grandmother believed that he may have had a similar family in Germany, he did not report what he found. Even if my family were not punished for not reporting food, they would have, almost certainly, died of hunger if the food were taken away.

    Such individual acts of humanity and courage in the midst of the war madness can soften one's attitudes to enemy nations. If this individual German soldier did not show humanity (and did not succumb to the German war propaganda that the locals were subhuman lower race), I would not be here today typing this.

    That’s a very moving story, Kiza. It restores my faith in certain individuals, though not perhaps mankind generally.

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  • @Carroll Price
    The same strategy is used by arrogant right-wing nuts like Shaun Hannity, Bill O-Reilly and Rush Limbaugh, who invite people on their shows, then talk-over them and drown them out to prevent them from giving logical and meaningful answers. And if you read the unedited transcript of the Putin/Charlie Rose interview, you will find that Putin was forced to instruct Charlie Rose to stop interrupting him and allow him to complete his statements.

    http://www.sott.net/article/302911-Sott-Exclusive-Full-unedited-text-of-Vladimir-Putins-interview-with-Charlie-Rose-What-CBS-left-out

    Holy fuck. that is alot of cuts.

    so 60 minutes is also just another propaganda outlet now.

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  • @Sam Shama

    It happens that I have direct family exposure. I’ve also visited Auschwitz/Birkenau, and have seen the films they screen there of when the camp was liberated. Does everyone realize that the Soviets were the liberators? I’ve read that all the “death camps” (as opposed to forced labor camps) were liberated by the Soviets. Do you know if that’s true?
     
    My grandmother and her family were first moved to Theresienstadt. After 2 months there, people were moved to various other camps. She was moved to Minsk, while the others she heard were moved to Riga; Minsk was liberated by Russians. The last time that little girl saw the rest of her family (mother, two sisters but not her father who died previously in the war and cousins) was prior to being sent to Minsk. In 1944 the Russians basically told them to get moving and a party of about 50 strangers with many children amongst them, wandered around Minsk countryside, surviving somehow on whatever they could find and share until they reached a joint British-American garrison. Thereafter through many twists and turns of fate she found her way with distant family in the UK. So this I know to be true from her first hand account.

    Do you know anyone who actually says there was no dispossession, deportation, and mass murder?
     
    Not personally I don't, but look around the pages of UR and you will find plenty of them.

    But his larger point, that scholars should not be imprisoned for questioning dogma, is valid.

     

    Agreed. My attitude on this matter is straightforward enough. There is immense amount of evidence and historical analysis available today, especially in institutions like the Yad Vashem, avoiding which would make any serious scholarly investigation incomplete even worthless. Also very important are the points Kiza was making in comment #65, about the attempts to rewrite history.

    I, for one fully, agree with you Sam and with Robin that people should not be imprisoned for questioning an “established truth”, no matter how holly an issue is. That much, if someone said that my two stories from WW2 were a lie, I would not get offended. They were told to me by my late grandmother (about her brother hanged by the Germans and about a German soldier who did not report them for hiding food) and I have no hard proof (there are records about the hanging). If someone chooses not to believe them, well ok. Forcing anyone to believe something is inherently wrong.

    Thank you for sharing a story of your family from Ukraine. We should tell such stories to our children and friends, to help them understand the importance of a survival, personal choice, decisions and the (small but significant) difference everyone can make.

    When I watch movies about Vietnam (e.g. Full Metal Jacket), I wish I could have been a chaplain to tell the young US soldiers not to do what they may regret and have nightmares about for the rest of their lives (ask almost any Vietnam Vet). Ditto for any other ongoing US war. Resist the regime or suffer for the rest of your life, if you have any residual humanity in you.

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    • Replies: @Kiza
    Sorry Sam, I was meant to write "your family story from Belarus".
    , @Sam Shama

    When I watch movies about Vietnam (e.g. Full Metal Jacket), I wish I could have been a chaplain to tell the young US soldiers not to do what they may regret and have nightmares about for the rest of their lives (ask almost any Vietnam Vet). Ditto for any other ongoing US war. Resist the regime or suffer for the rest of your life, if you have any residual humanity in you.
     
    Truly important observation, Kiza. I can tell you that today, the morale of a not insignificant proportion of the IDF is adversely affected by similar actions, even worse actually in some ways, since the military is tasked to confront and contain a civilian population, something they were not trained for. In the U.S. though, and I am confounded by this, I meet more young military personnel who display no understanding or qualms about the harm militaries inflict. Its almost robotic, their attitudes.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @RobinG
    Sam,

    It happens that I have direct family exposure. I've also visited Auschwitz/Birkenau, and have seen the films they screen there of when the camp was liberated. Does everyone realize that the Soviets were the liberators? I've read that all the "death camps" (as opposed to forced labor camps) were liberated by the Soviets. Do you know if that's true?

    While I don't doubt for a second the evil of the Nazis, (and I'm repulsed by today's HBDers' embrace of 21st century eugenics) I also know that the Bolsheviks (who had perpetrated their own Hell on Earth) had motive to emphasize and exaggerate the evil of the Nazis, even to blame them wrongly as they did in the case of the Katyn Forest massacre. And of course, the Zionists also had ulterior motive to demonize Germany.

    "Holocaust Denial" is something of a misnomer. Do you know anyone who actually says there was no dispossession, deportation, and mass murder? Only if, as some say, the Holocaust is a religion, would it be heresy to scrutinize any tenet of the story. Apparently in Germany/Europe it is now a crime to do so, and that IMO is the greater danger.

    Unfortunately, accused Holocaust denier Paul Eisen cites as influential a supposed gas-chamber execution expert whose calculations from a radically different situation seem ludicrously irrelevant. (Eisen's superior IQ isn't serving him well there.) But his larger point, that scholars should not be imprisoned for questioning dogma, is valid.

    Unz Review is something of a free-for-all, but it's a place where adults are free to sift. Thankfully, Ron does not hunt down and imprison provocative commenters. Three cheers.

    It happens that I have direct family exposure. I’ve also visited Auschwitz/Birkenau, and have seen the films they screen there of when the camp was liberated. Does everyone realize that the Soviets were the liberators? I’ve read that all the “death camps” (as opposed to forced labor camps) were liberated by the Soviets. Do you know if that’s true?

    My grandmother and her family were first moved to Theresienstadt. After 2 months there, people were moved to various other camps. She was moved to Minsk, while the others she heard were moved to Riga; Minsk was liberated by Russians. The last time that little girl saw the rest of her family (mother, two sisters but not her father who died previously in the war and cousins) was prior to being sent to Minsk. In 1944 the Russians basically told them to get moving and a party of about 50 strangers with many children amongst them, wandered around Minsk countryside, surviving somehow on whatever they could find and share until they reached a joint British-American garrison. Thereafter through many twists and turns of fate she found her way with distant family in the UK. So this I know to be true from her first hand account.

    Do you know anyone who actually says there was no dispossession, deportation, and mass murder?

    Not personally I don’t, but look around the pages of UR and you will find plenty of them.

    But his larger point, that scholars should not be imprisoned for questioning dogma, is valid.

    Agreed. My attitude on this matter is straightforward enough. There is immense amount of evidence and historical analysis available today, especially in institutions like the Yad Vashem, avoiding which would make any serious scholarly investigation incomplete even worthless. Also very important are the points Kiza was making in comment #65, about the attempts to rewrite history.

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    • Replies: @Kiza
    I, for one fully, agree with you Sam and with Robin that people should not be imprisoned for questioning an "established truth", no matter how holly an issue is. That much, if someone said that my two stories from WW2 were a lie, I would not get offended. They were told to me by my late grandmother (about her brother hanged by the Germans and about a German soldier who did not report them for hiding food) and I have no hard proof (there are records about the hanging). If someone chooses not to believe them, well ok. Forcing anyone to believe something is inherently wrong.

    Thank you for sharing a story of your family from Ukraine. We should tell such stories to our children and friends, to help them understand the importance of a survival, personal choice, decisions and the (small but significant) difference everyone can make.

    When I watch movies about Vietnam (e.g. Full Metal Jacket), I wish I could have been a chaplain to tell the young US soldiers not to do what they may regret and have nightmares about for the rest of their lives (ask almost any Vietnam Vet). Ditto for any other ongoing US war. Resist the regime or suffer for the rest of your life, if you have any residual humanity in you.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Kiza
    Very good comment Avery, I know exactly what you mean: my nation experienced the tender mercies of both the Germans and the Turks.

    But, I did not want to excuse their crimes, I was trying to point out something totally different.

    We as individuals have a responsibility to keep our humanity no matter what surrounds us. It is not because of God, it is because we want to remain human. Life can take us to situations when we have to make very difficult decisions - even to risk our own life for a life of a total stranger or someone else's family. Kill or torture someone or be severely punished for not fulfilling the order. We need to ask ourselves all the time - would I have the mental capacity to resist propaganda and the moral strength to make the right decision, to risk and even sacrifice own life to make a wrong right. The German soldier from my story did risk much for not reporting my family's food supply, possibly even his life.

    What I think about sometimes is I try to put myself in the mind and soul of a mass destroyer - what does he feel, does he have an orgasm when he kills a million of human beings or even one? Even Obama, the war criminal par excellence, joked at his own expense that he is good at killing some folks by drones. He is an example of an individual who cannot make the right decision and would not take a risk for a fellow human being, a coward any way you look at it. That he found a little ray of courage to say no to the bombing of Iran does not make him a hero, only a smaller coward.

    For myself, I often say - I would rather be a toilet cleaner than a Western MSM journalist, let alone a President of the US.

    I understand.

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  • @Avery
    That is a positive story.

    But the act of kindness of that one German soldier was erased by 1000s and 1000s of acts of pure savagery by Nazi invaders.
    Civilians, children murdered en mass.
    Entire towns, villages completely destroyed.
    Millions and millions of Slav civilians murdered or KIA by German invaders.
    Invaders.
    If there was no Nazi invasion, there would be no need for righteous German soldiers: Yes ?

    I hear the same story from my compatriots.
    Many Turks risked severe punishment, even death, for sheltering Armenians during 1915 Genocide.
    Thank you, thank you very much.
    But every 1 righteous Turk, 1000s and 1000s of Turks (and many Kurds) eagerly participated in the butchery of defenseless Armenian civilians, women, children, babies.

    It is hard for me to have any sympathy.

    Very good comment Avery, I know exactly what you mean: my nation experienced the tender mercies of both the Germans and the Turks.

    But, I did not want to excuse their crimes, I was trying to point out something totally different.

    We as individuals have a responsibility to keep our humanity no matter what surrounds us. It is not because of God, it is because we want to remain human. Life can take us to situations when we have to make very difficult decisions – even to risk our own life for a life of a total stranger or someone else’s family. Kill or torture someone or be severely punished for not fulfilling the order. We need to ask ourselves all the time – would I have the mental capacity to resist propaganda and the moral strength to make the right decision, to risk and even sacrifice own life to make a wrong right. The German soldier from my story did risk much for not reporting my family’s food supply, possibly even his life.

    What I think about sometimes is I try to put myself in the mind and soul of a mass destroyer – what does he feel, does he have an orgasm when he kills a million of human beings or even one? Even Obama, the war criminal par excellence, joked at his own expense that he is good at killing some folks by drones. He is an example of an individual who cannot make the right decision and would not take a risk for a fellow human being, a coward any way you look at it. That he found a little ray of courage to say no to the bombing of Iran does not make him a hero, only a smaller coward.

    For myself, I often say – I would rather be a toilet cleaner than a Western MSM journalist, let alone a President of the US.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    I understand.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Kiza
    Sam, I have to tell another story, for the sake of that balance that you mention.

    In the country I am from, which was smashed up and occupied by Germany, various armies, partisans and paramilitaries were passing through and taking any food they would find and burning crops so that the enemy would have nothing to take. To save the family from hunger, my grandfather hid food supplies underground, mostly potatoes and pork fat in amphorae. At the peak of the war, a large German military unit settled in the town and started collecting food from the locals. Refusing to hand-over food to the German military was a death sentence, but so was handing over food (only slow death instead of being shot). The Germans went from house to house searching for any hidden supplies. Five German soldiers walked into my family's large house with a barn. One German soldier opened a hatch and found the amphorae, but because he saw my grandmother with two little children of around 10 (all three blond, like most Germans) my grandmother believed that he may have had a similar family in Germany, he did not report what he found. Even if my family were not punished for not reporting food, they would have, almost certainly, died of hunger if the food were taken away.

    Such individual acts of humanity and courage in the midst of the war madness can soften one's attitudes to enemy nations. If this individual German soldier did not show humanity (and did not succumb to the German war propaganda that the locals were subhuman lower race), I would not be here today typing this.

    Wow stunning story! I am speechless.

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  • @SolontoCroesus

    Simply, Dresden would have never happened if the Germany did not start WW2.
     
    I. To the first part of your statement, historian (and Jewish) author Jeffrey Herf said something similar: No War, No holocaust. http://www.c-span.org/video/?192852-1/book-discussion-jewish-enemy-nazi-propaganda

    II. To the second part of your statement, ". . .if the Germany [sic] did not start WW2,"

    a. In 1987 Irving Kristol, godfather of neoconservatism, told a Federalist gathering:

    [@ 39 min] "Everyone thinks of WW2 as a popular war and it became one but I must tell you, the American people had no desire whatsoever to get into WW2 and if the Japanese and the Germans had not been so foolish to attack us, thank god, we never would have gone into WW2, in my opinion. . . .
    [@42.36 min] "Franklin [Roosevelt] had a really tough row to hoe . . . He had a country basically isolationist and he wanted to get us into WW2 on the side of Britain and the West [sic]. And he lied, he deceived, he was utterly Machiavellian as he maneuvered us into a position which invited Japan to attack us and provoked Hitler to attack us."
    http://www.c-span.org/video/?451-1/virtues-vices-democracy
     
    b. In his book, 1939: The War That Had Many Fathers,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBLgZAv_Iqo

    Major-General Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof presents the evidence of the NSDAP's repeated efforts to settle the conflict with Poland that was the immediate, precipitating event of WW2. Hitler did not want war, but the British and French had arranged affairs so that Polish leaders were disincentivized to negotiate for a nonviolent solution.

    c. Robert Vansittart was "Chief Diplomatic Adviser to the British Government. . . .[and]Vansittart, one of the most influential personalities in the British foreign service . . . He is best remembered for his opposition to Appeasement and his hardline stance towards Germany during and after the Second World War. . . ."

    Vansittart explained British motives for waging war on Germany [and Churchill's rejection of numerous offers of peace tendered by the German government in 1940]:

    We didn't go to war in 1939 to save Germany from Hitler...or the continent from fascism. Like in 1914 we went to war for the not lesser noble cause that we couldn't accept a German hegemony over Europe.
     
    Hitler did not want war. It was the British, the French, the Polish, and FDR who made war inevitable, and it was the British and Churchill who demanded war in order to preserve British empire and hegemony.

    III. re:

    There is no doubt in my mind that the fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo were terrible war crimes of the British and the Americans respectively. But your construct is one typical for NATO-propagandists’:
    1) the time reversal,
    2) the cause and consequence reversal.
    Simply, Dresden would have never happened if the Germany did not start WW2.
     
    1. As demonstrated above, your foundational premise has been destroyed: Germany did not start WW2 in any real sense.

    2. The "time reversal" as well as "cause and consequence reversal" are your errors.

    Trace the chronology:

    1932 - 1933 Stalin and the Bolsheviks are starving to death Russians and Ukrainians

    30 Jan 1933 Hitler is appointed chancellor

    14 Feb 1933 Louis Brandeis tells Rabbi Stephen Wise that "all Jews must leave Germany." When Wise says, incredulously, "How shall we remove 587,000 German Jews?" Brandeis insists: "No Jew should remain in Germany."

    24 Mar 1933 "International Jewry" organizes to boycott Germany with the intent to destroy the export trade upon which the Germany economy depends. That is, the Jewish boycott was intended to and did pose an existential threat to Germany. The boycott was pursued from 1933 until 1940.

    What was Germany's response?

    According to Breitman and Lichtman in FDR and the Jews,

    "Before the war Nazi oppression of German Jews followed a jagged trajectory. Some Nazi activists physically assaulted Jews in the early exuberant days of Hitler's semi legal revolution. Once secure in their authority, Nazi officials curbed personal violence [against Jews], but enacted a series of discriminatory laws and decrees . . . Only in late 1938 . . . for the first time [did] the Gestapo imprison tens of thousands of German Jews in concentration camps that also held other alleged enemies of Hitler's new Reich."
     
    That is, "international Jewry" prosecuted an economic boycott of Germany for seven years. For the first five years of that period, NSDAP not only refused to be provoked, "Nazi officials curbed personal violence against Jews."

    A more granular exploration of events between Sept. 1938 and Sept. 1939 offers even more damning evidence that FDR and Henry Morgenthau, Jr., most likely in concert with Winston Churchill and the Jewish Agency in Tel Aviv (headed by David Ben Gurion), brokered by Felix Frankfurter, Louis Brandeis and Bernard Baruch, were implementing plans that included deliberate attacks on German civilians. Among other sources, documents of the US Department of the Interior record this evidence.

    There is NO evidence -- not even phony evidence * -- of "gas chambers" and the "extermination of Jews" before Germany entered Poland in Sept. 1939 and before the declarations of war in 1940. None. Yet Jews had been disseminating "atrocity propaganda" against Germany, and taking systematic actions to destroy Germany's economy throughout that period.

    "Time reversal" and "cause and consequence reversal" ? -- Yes, on your part, Kiza.

    V. re

    There is no doubt in my mind that the fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo were terrible war crimes of the British and the Americans respectively.
     
    How about the firebombing of Wupertal,

    Hamburg,

    Nuremburg, --

    "A total of 6,369 people left their lives under 13,807 tons of bombs in Nuremberg. . . .After the january raid, hordes of rucksack-carrying twelve-year-olds who had been evacuated to a children's camp . . .returned to the city to look for their parents. Despite the winter cold, people threw away shoes and clothing they thought had come in contact with phosphorus, fearing they would burn to death. " The Fire: The Bombing of Germany, 1940 - 1945, p. 278
     
    Bonn

    Stuttgart

    Bayreuth

    Berlin

    Cologne

    Frankfurt

    Magdeburg

    Wismar

    Bremen

    Freiburg

    Hildesheim

    Munich

    Rostock

    Ausburg

    In Aachen six hospitals were attacked by Allied firebombing raids, "eighty patients and eleven nurses were killed." ( Gen. Campbell's comments to a Senate committee the other day, regarding the attack on the hospital in Afghanistan, come to mind.)

    These and about 120 more German towns and cities were incinerated by Allied firebombing raids.

    War crimes?
    When was the trial?
    Who was held accountable?
    Were reparations paid?
    By whom?
    To whom?
    How much?

    And the question that no one on this forum has so far answered:

    How many Jews died in firebombing raids that destroyed 75% of Germany and snuffed out 600,000 German civilians?

    VI.

    I am sincerely amazed at the level of the moronic rewriting of history going on in the West. . . . one day we will read how the Soviet Union/Russia attacked German peace-keepers on the Eastern Front and caused WW2 (in 1941, two years after the war started).
     
    Better polish the "sincerely amazing moronic rewriting of history" award for former Soviet army intelligence officer Victor Suvorov; he argues that Russia was massing offensive forces on Germany's borders and that Hitler's army saved central Europe from complete devastation by Stalin's hordes.

    This is Viktor Suvorov's book presentation at the United States Naval Academy on October 7, 2009. In his recent book "The Chief Culprit" the bestselling author Viktor Suvorov probes newly released Soviet documents and reevaluates existing material to analyze Stalin's strategic design to conquer Europe and the reasons behind his controversial support for Nazi Germany.

    He argues that Stalin was caught just days before launching his own assault into Central Europe. Thus the Red Army's offensive posture rendered it uniquely vulnerable to German attack.

    A former Soviet army intelligence officer (true name Vladimir Rezun), the author explains that Stalin's strategy leading up to World War II grew from Vladimir Lenin's belief that if World War I did not ignite the worldwide Communist revolution, then a second world war would be needed to achieve it. Stalin saw Nazi Germany as the power that would fight and weaken capitalist countries so that Soviet armies could then sweep across Europe. Suvorov reveals how Stalin conspired with German leaders to bypass the Versailles Treaty, which forbade German rearmament, and secretly trained German engineers and officers and provided bases and factories for war. He also calls attention to the 1939 nonaggression pact between the Soviet Union and Germany that allowed Hitler to proceed with his plans to invade Poland, fomenting war in Europe.

    Suvorov debunks the theory that Stalin was duped by Hitler and that the Soviet Union was a victim of Nazi aggression. Instead, he makes the case that Stalin neither feared Hitler nor mistakenly trusted him. Suvorov maintains that after Germany occupied Poland, defeated France, and started to prepare for an invasion of Great Britain, Hitler's intelligence services detected the Soviet Union's preparations for a major war against Germany. This detection, he argues, led to Germany's preemptive war plan and the launch of an invasion of the USSR. Stalin emerges from the pages of this book as a genius consumed by the vision of a worldwide Communist revolution at any cost--a leader who wooed Hitler and Germany in his own effort to conquer the world. In contradicting traditional theories about Soviet planning, the book is certain to provoke debate among historians throughout the world.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbBnRZoTHFs

    Wanted or not, Nazi Germany _did_ invade USSR: Yes or No ?
    Nazi troops came within a few miles of Moscow: Yes or No ?
    Nazi troops were defeated at Stalingrad, a couple of 1000 miles from Berlin: Yes or No ?

    Whatever Hitler ‘wanted’ or not, is irrelevant and impossible to prove.
    Fact: Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa.
    Fact: Hitler invaded USSR.
    Is what Hitler wrote and spoke about Lebensraum fact or fiction ?
    End of story.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    Wanted or not, Nazi Germany _did_ invade USSR: Yes or No ?
     
    1. In World War I Pres. Wilson sent US troops to Siberia in a scheme to vanquish Bolshevism, which many American leaders and other world leaders perceived as a looming threat to Europe.

    The USA _did_ invade USSR years before Nazi Germany did, for the same reasons as Hitler invaded Russia -- to vanquish Bolshevik Communism .
    http://www.amazon.com/When-United-States-Invaded-Russia/dp/1442219890/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1444392774&sr=8-1&keywords=when+us+invaded+russia

    2. Post-WW2 the USA spent 45 years attempting to destroy Soviet Communism. In the process the USA and its anti-Communist allies created turmoil and bloodshed, and caused the loss of many lives and futures in Cuba, Iran, Germany, Italy, and others.

    It is a mystery to me why FDR and Churchill allied with Josef Stalin, who had already murdered tens of millions of Russians and Ukrainians, against Germany, whose stated goals had been to destroy Bolshevik Communism, which is exactly what Wilson set out to do during WWI and is exactly the crusade the USA committed so much blood and treasure to after WW2.

    If USA knew, as it surely must have, that Bolshevik Communism was such a threat, why not stand aside and let the Germans and the Russians duke it out, as Herbert Hoover argued incessantly should be done, whereupon "a century of peace" would prevail over Europe? (see Hoover's "Freedom Betrayed")

    2. Or did Nazi Germany invade USSR?

    From out of the sea of details, a coherent thesis emerges: Stalin dragged Hitler into war to force Europe into chaos and facilitate a communist revolution on the continent. According to Shauli, there is evidence to back up this theory, including a speech by Stalin himself as well as a report obtained by the U.S. Consulate in Prague. . . .

    The report has been mentioned here and there over the years, but it has never been published, because no one knows where it is today.
    Shauli, 59, believed that the definitive evidence was out there, hiding somewhere. He believed, and did not give up, repeatedly setting out to find it, going as far as Washington. No one is happier than he is today: The document is in his possession, and now the history of World War II may have to be rewritten: It was Stalin's fault.

    The document, from October 1939, consists of three pages in English that purportedly reflect a dialogue in Moscow between a delegation from Czechoslovakia and a senior Soviet Foreign Ministry official. The Czechs tried to find out why the U.S.S.R. had signed the nonaggression treaty with Nazi Germany, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of August 1939. A few days later the Germans invaded Poland, and World War II began.

    The Soviet official, Alexandrov by name, explained to the Czech delegation that had the Soviet Union signed an agreement with the West, Hitler would not have dared to launch a war, and without that war there would have been no possibility of imposing communism in Europe. He also listed the benefits to the Soviet Union of the pact with Nazi Germany, and of the war.

    The veracity of the document must be proved, and even if it turns out to be genuine, its significance is worthy of debate. Mischa Shauli is continuing his investigation. No, he said this week, he does not fear that shifting responsibility for the war from Hitler to Stalin "acquits" Hitler; he is responsible for other crimes.

    Stalin Was to Blame for Starting World War II, Haaretz, 2007

     

    Suvorov makes the same argument and takes it to its logical conclusion: Operation Barbarossa was the line of defense that Hitler and the German army erected against a Bolshevik Communist takeover of Europe.

    bitte

    Nazi troops came within a few miles of Moscow: Yes or No ?
     
    Yes

    Nazi troops were defeated at Stalingrad, a couple of 1000 miles from Berlin: Yes or No ?
     
    Yes

    Your point?

    Whatever Hitler ‘wanted’ or not, is irrelevant and impossible to prove.
     
    Disagree on both counts.
    It is extremely important to understand the history with as much accuracy as possible.

    My argument is that the entire story has not been told, and that it is essential to tell that story not to make Germans feel good -- I am not German, have no German family etc., nothing: justice as well as an accurate rendering of history as the basis for sound foreign policy requires accurate information.

    That is the message of Croesus: If you misinterpret the prophecy (or history), decisions made on that faulty understanding can destroy your nation.

    The history of World War 2 that the American people are force-fed is wildly inaccurate, and the policies the USA has pursued based on that wildly inaccurate version of history have got us where we are today: The USA starves whole nations and destroys their economy for no good reason and calls it diplomacy.

    Fact: Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa.
    Fact: Hitler invaded USSR.
     
    Again, what's your point?
    The time to stop atrocities are before the war starts. Germany did all it could to avoid war. As Kristol said, and other histories demonstrate, FDR and Churchill were hell-bent for war. Once engaged, Germany fought it ferociously. What options did they have?

    It should be added that the Allies war effort broke far more rules of war, and committed far more war crimes than did the Germans. That, also, is a fact that the exceptional nation would do well to come to terms with.

    Is what Hitler wrote and spoke about Lebensraum fact or fiction ?
    End of story
     
    You disappoint, Avery; I thought you were more astute than a black-and-white, cartoon version of history, particularly a history that is the basis for so much of USA exceptionalist self-regard and subsequent activity in the world.

    What was the context of the lebensraum concept, do you know? Have you probed it? Do you have an awareness of what problems the German government sought to resolve by expanding to the East?

    etc

    etc

    etc

    ---

    Niall Ferguson has experimented with several counterfactual histories of Europe-England in the 20th century and formed the notion that the British and Continental Europe would have been better off if the British had stayed out of World War I and had made peace with Hitler rather than pursue World War2 and the misbegotten treaty with Poland.

    Have you ever thought about that history along those lines?

    What Ferguson conjectures seems so obviously true.

    If it is the case, as the documentary evidence proves, that Germany offered numerous, more-than-fair proposals to resolve the conflict with Poland; and that Germany offered numerous and more-than-generous peace proposals to the British, why were those offers rejected?

    As Irving Kristol stated in 1987 (quoted in earlier comment), "FDR lied, deceived and manipulated to go to war against Germany. . . . FDR provoked Japan and Germany" in order to get a war on.

    WHY?

    What had Germany done to USA at that time?
    What were FDR's motives?
    Was FDR's decision-making grounded in the prescriptions of US Founders, or did he diverge from the foundational principles of the USA Constitutional republic?
    What motivated Churchill?

    btw -- Irving Kristol's comment in 1987 -- "thank god FDR lied, deceived and manipulated to involve USA in war against Germany," especially when placed next to Jeffrey Herf's comment, "No war, no final solution," presents an enigma: Did Kristol think that bringing on the event that enabled the (alleged) holocaust of Jews was something the gods should be thanked for? Or did Kristol have the more accurate view of WW2, which is that it was a holocaust of the German people, for which Kristol "thanked god." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPaCEFl-Zzg
    -----

    Others on this forum are engaging in retelling of emotional stories about events in the war.

    Historian Thomas Fleming cited the work of his friend Michael Kammen, and observed that it takes several generations -- perhaps 100 years -- to gain the distance required for an objective history of events. Fleming said that earlier, immediate histories lack scope and clarity because they are emotionally charged, and based on memory rather than evidence critically assessed. http://www.c-span.org/video/?164982-1/book-discussion-new-dealers-war
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Kiza
    Sam, I have to tell another story, for the sake of that balance that you mention.

    In the country I am from, which was smashed up and occupied by Germany, various armies, partisans and paramilitaries were passing through and taking any food they would find and burning crops so that the enemy would have nothing to take. To save the family from hunger, my grandfather hid food supplies underground, mostly potatoes and pork fat in amphorae. At the peak of the war, a large German military unit settled in the town and started collecting food from the locals. Refusing to hand-over food to the German military was a death sentence, but so was handing over food (only slow death instead of being shot). The Germans went from house to house searching for any hidden supplies. Five German soldiers walked into my family's large house with a barn. One German soldier opened a hatch and found the amphorae, but because he saw my grandmother with two little children of around 10 (all three blond, like most Germans) my grandmother believed that he may have had a similar family in Germany, he did not report what he found. Even if my family were not punished for not reporting food, they would have, almost certainly, died of hunger if the food were taken away.

    Such individual acts of humanity and courage in the midst of the war madness can soften one's attitudes to enemy nations. If this individual German soldier did not show humanity (and did not succumb to the German war propaganda that the locals were subhuman lower race), I would not be here today typing this.

    That is a positive story.

    But the act of kindness of that one German soldier was erased by 1000s and 1000s of acts of pure savagery by Nazi invaders.
    Civilians, children murdered en mass.
    Entire towns, villages completely destroyed.
    Millions and millions of Slav civilians murdered or KIA by German invaders.
    Invaders.
    If there was no Nazi invasion, there would be no need for righteous German soldiers: Yes ?

    I hear the same story from my compatriots.
    Many Turks risked severe punishment, even death, for sheltering Armenians during 1915 Genocide.
    Thank you, thank you very much.
    But every 1 righteous Turk, 1000s and 1000s of Turks (and many Kurds) eagerly participated in the butchery of defenseless Armenian civilians, women, children, babies.

    It is hard for me to have any sympathy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kiza
    Very good comment Avery, I know exactly what you mean: my nation experienced the tender mercies of both the Germans and the Turks.

    But, I did not want to excuse their crimes, I was trying to point out something totally different.

    We as individuals have a responsibility to keep our humanity no matter what surrounds us. It is not because of God, it is because we want to remain human. Life can take us to situations when we have to make very difficult decisions - even to risk our own life for a life of a total stranger or someone else's family. Kill or torture someone or be severely punished for not fulfilling the order. We need to ask ourselves all the time - would I have the mental capacity to resist propaganda and the moral strength to make the right decision, to risk and even sacrifice own life to make a wrong right. The German soldier from my story did risk much for not reporting my family's food supply, possibly even his life.

    What I think about sometimes is I try to put myself in the mind and soul of a mass destroyer - what does he feel, does he have an orgasm when he kills a million of human beings or even one? Even Obama, the war criminal par excellence, joked at his own expense that he is good at killing some folks by drones. He is an example of an individual who cannot make the right decision and would not take a risk for a fellow human being, a coward any way you look at it. That he found a little ray of courage to say no to the bombing of Iran does not make him a hero, only a smaller coward.

    For myself, I often say - I would rather be a toilet cleaner than a Western MSM journalist, let alone a President of the US.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Simply, Dresden would have never happened if the Germany did not start WW2.

    I. To the first part of your statement, historian (and Jewish) author Jeffrey Herf said something similar: No War, No holocaust. http://www.c-span.org/video/?192852-1/book-discussion-jewish-enemy-nazi-propaganda

    II. To the second part of your statement, “. . .if the Germany [sic] did not start WW2,”

    a. In 1987 Irving Kristol, godfather of neoconservatism, told a Federalist gathering:

    [@ 39 min] “Everyone thinks of WW2 as a popular war and it became one but I must tell you, the American people had no desire whatsoever to get into WW2 and if the Japanese and the Germans had not been so foolish to attack us, thank god, we never would have gone into WW2, in my opinion. . . .
    [@42.36 min] “Franklin [Roosevelt] had a really tough row to hoe . . . He had a country basically isolationist and he wanted to get us into WW2 on the side of Britain and the West [sic]. And he lied, he deceived, he was utterly Machiavellian as he maneuvered us into a position which invited Japan to attack us and provoked Hitler to attack us.”
    http://www.c-span.org/video/?451-1/virtues-vices-democracy

    b. In his book, 1939: The War That Had Many Fathers,

    Major-General Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof presents the evidence of the NSDAP’s repeated efforts to settle the conflict with Poland that was the immediate, precipitating event of WW2. Hitler did not want war, but the British and French had arranged affairs so that Polish leaders were disincentivized to negotiate for a nonviolent solution.

    c. Robert Vansittart was “Chief Diplomatic Adviser to the British Government. . . .[and]Vansittart, one of the most influential personalities in the British foreign service . . . He is best remembered for his opposition to Appeasement and his hardline stance towards Germany during and after the Second World War. . . .”

    Vansittart explained British motives for waging war on Germany [and Churchill's rejection of numerous offers of peace tendered by the German government in 1940]:

    We didn’t go to war in 1939 to save Germany from Hitler…or the continent from fascism. Like in 1914 we went to war for the not lesser noble cause that we couldn’t accept a German hegemony over Europe.

    Hitler did not want war. It was the British, the French, the Polish, and FDR who made war inevitable, and it was the British and Churchill who demanded war in order to preserve British empire and hegemony.

    [MORE]

    III. re:

    There is no doubt in my mind that the fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo were terrible war crimes of the British and the Americans respectively. But your construct is one typical for NATO-propagandists’:
    1) the time reversal,
    2) the cause and consequence reversal.
    Simply, Dresden would have never happened if the Germany did not start WW2.

    1. As demonstrated above, your foundational premise has been destroyed: Germany did not start WW2 in any real sense.

    2. The “time reversal” as well as “cause and consequence reversal” are your errors.

    Trace the chronology:

    1932 – 1933 Stalin and the Bolsheviks are starving to death Russians and Ukrainians

    30 Jan 1933 Hitler is appointed chancellor

    14 Feb 1933 Louis Brandeis tells Rabbi Stephen Wise that “all Jews must leave Germany.” When Wise says, incredulously, “How shall we remove 587,000 German Jews?” Brandeis insists: “No Jew should remain in Germany.”

    24 Mar 1933 “International Jewry” organizes to boycott Germany with the intent to destroy the export trade upon which the Germany economy depends. That is, the Jewish boycott was intended to and did pose an existential threat to Germany. The boycott was pursued from 1933 until 1940.

    What was Germany’s response?

    According to Breitman and Lichtman in FDR and the Jews,

    “Before the war Nazi oppression of German Jews followed a jagged trajectory. Some Nazi activists physically assaulted Jews in the early exuberant days of Hitler’s semi legal revolution. Once secure in their authority, Nazi officials curbed personal violence [against Jews], but enacted a series of discriminatory laws and decrees . . . Only in late 1938 . . . for the first time [did] the Gestapo imprison tens of thousands of German Jews in concentration camps that also held other alleged enemies of Hitler’s new Reich.”

    That is, “international Jewry” prosecuted an economic boycott of Germany for seven years. For the first five years of that period, NSDAP not only refused to be provoked, “Nazi officials curbed personal violence against Jews.”

    A more granular exploration of events between Sept. 1938 and Sept. 1939 offers even more damning evidence that FDR and Henry Morgenthau, Jr., most likely in concert with Winston Churchill and the Jewish Agency in Tel Aviv (headed by David Ben Gurion), brokered by Felix Frankfurter, Louis Brandeis and Bernard Baruch, were implementing plans that included deliberate attacks on German civilians. Among other sources, documents of the US Department of the Interior record this evidence.

    There is NO evidence — not even phony evidence * — of “gas chambers” and the “extermination of Jews” before Germany entered Poland in Sept. 1939 and before the declarations of war in 1940. None. Yet Jews had been disseminating “atrocity propaganda” against Germany, and taking systematic actions to destroy Germany’s economy throughout that period.

    “Time reversal” and “cause and consequence reversal” ? — Yes, on your part, Kiza.

    V. re

    There is no doubt in my mind that the fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo were terrible war crimes of the British and the Americans respectively.

    How about the firebombing of Wupertal,

    Hamburg,

    Nuremburg, —

    “A total of 6,369 people left their lives under 13,807 tons of bombs in Nuremberg. . . .After the january raid, hordes of rucksack-carrying twelve-year-olds who had been evacuated to a children’s camp . . .returned to the city to look for their parents. Despite the winter cold, people threw away shoes and clothing they thought had come in contact with phosphorus, fearing they would burn to death. ” The Fire: The Bombing of Germany, 1940 – 1945, p. 278

    Bonn

    Stuttgart

    Bayreuth

    Berlin

    Cologne

    Frankfurt

    Magdeburg

    Wismar

    Bremen

    Freiburg

    Hildesheim

    Munich

    Rostock

    Ausburg

    In Aachen six hospitals were attacked by Allied firebombing raids, “eighty patients and eleven nurses were killed.” ( Gen. Campbell’s comments to a Senate committee the other day, regarding the attack on the hospital in Afghanistan, come to mind.)

    These and about 120 more German towns and cities were incinerated by Allied firebombing raids.

    War crimes?
    When was the trial?
    Who was held accountable?
    Were reparations paid?
    By whom?
    To whom?
    How much?

    And the question that no one on this forum has so far answered:

    How many Jews died in firebombing raids that destroyed 75% of Germany and snuffed out 600,000 German civilians?

    VI.

    I am sincerely amazed at the level of the moronic rewriting of history going on in the West. . . . one day we will read how the Soviet Union/Russia attacked German peace-keepers on the Eastern Front and caused WW2 (in 1941, two years after the war started).

    Better polish the “sincerely amazing moronic rewriting of history” award for former Soviet army intelligence officer Victor Suvorov; he argues that Russia was massing offensive forces on Germany’s borders and that Hitler’s army saved central Europe from complete devastation by Stalin’s hordes.

    This is Viktor Suvorov’s book presentation at the United States Naval Academy on October 7, 2009. In his recent book “The Chief Culprit” the bestselling author Viktor Suvorov probes newly released Soviet documents and reevaluates existing material to analyze Stalin’s strategic design to conquer Europe and the reasons behind his controversial support for Nazi Germany.

    He argues that Stalin was caught just days before launching his own assault into Central Europe. Thus the Red Army’s offensive posture rendered it uniquely vulnerable to German attack.

    A former Soviet army intelligence officer (true name Vladimir Rezun), the author explains that Stalin’s strategy leading up to World War II grew from Vladimir Lenin’s belief that if World War I did not ignite the worldwide Communist revolution, then a second world war would be needed to achieve it. Stalin saw Nazi Germany as the power that would fight and weaken capitalist countries so that Soviet armies could then sweep across Europe. Suvorov reveals how Stalin conspired with German leaders to bypass the Versailles Treaty, which forbade German rearmament, and secretly trained German engineers and officers and provided bases and factories for war. He also calls attention to the 1939 nonaggression pact between the Soviet Union and Germany that allowed Hitler to proceed with his plans to invade Poland, fomenting war in Europe.

    Suvorov debunks the theory that Stalin was duped by Hitler and that the Soviet Union was a victim of Nazi aggression. Instead, he makes the case that Stalin neither feared Hitler nor mistakenly trusted him. Suvorov maintains that after Germany occupied Poland, defeated France, and started to prepare for an invasion of Great Britain, Hitler’s intelligence services detected the Soviet Union’s preparations for a major war against Germany. This detection, he argues, led to Germany’s preemptive war plan and the launch of an invasion of the USSR. Stalin emerges from the pages of this book as a genius consumed by the vision of a worldwide Communist revolution at any cost–a leader who wooed Hitler and Germany in his own effort to conquer the world. In contradicting traditional theories about Soviet planning, the book is certain to provoke debate among historians throughout the world.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    Wanted or not, Nazi Germany _did_ invade USSR: Yes or No ?
    Nazi troops came within a few miles of Moscow: Yes or No ?
    Nazi troops were defeated at Stalingrad, a couple of 1000 miles from Berlin: Yes or No ?

    Whatever Hitler 'wanted' or not, is irrelevant and impossible to prove.
    Fact: Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa.
    Fact: Hitler invaded USSR.
    Is what Hitler wrote and spoke about Lebensraum fact or fiction ?
    End of story.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Kiza,
    I could not agree more with your practice as to the way in which to use MSM. While Putin is certainly speaking for the rest of the world as it were, and this is no small matter, it is no doubt raising the temperature in the ME for obvious reasons. It is also however, the only balancing effect I can think of.

    As far as the actions of the Nazis go, for those people who have had no direct family exposed to it, the advise ought to be simple: speaketh not without pause and disquiet, of that which thou not knoweth!

    Sam, I have to tell another story, for the sake of that balance that you mention.

    In the country I am from, which was smashed up and occupied by Germany, various armies, partisans and paramilitaries were passing through and taking any food they would find and burning crops so that the enemy would have nothing to take. To save the family from hunger, my grandfather hid food supplies underground, mostly potatoes and pork fat in amphorae. At the peak of the war, a large German military unit settled in the town and started collecting food from the locals. Refusing to hand-over food to the German military was a death sentence, but so was handing over food (only slow death instead of being shot). The Germans went from house to house searching for any hidden supplies. Five German soldiers walked into my family’s large house with a barn. One German soldier opened a hatch and found the amphorae, but because he saw my grandmother with two little children of around 10 (all three blond, like most Germans) my grandmother believed that he may have had a similar family in Germany, he did not report what he found. Even if my family were not punished for not reporting food, they would have, almost certainly, died of hunger if the food were taken away.

    Such individual acts of humanity and courage in the midst of the war madness can soften one’s attitudes to enemy nations. If this individual German soldier did not show humanity (and did not succumb to the German war propaganda that the locals were subhuman lower race), I would not be here today typing this.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    That is a positive story.

    But the act of kindness of that one German soldier was erased by 1000s and 1000s of acts of pure savagery by Nazi invaders.
    Civilians, children murdered en mass.
    Entire towns, villages completely destroyed.
    Millions and millions of Slav civilians murdered or KIA by German invaders.
    Invaders.
    If there was no Nazi invasion, there would be no need for righteous German soldiers: Yes ?

    I hear the same story from my compatriots.
    Many Turks risked severe punishment, even death, for sheltering Armenians during 1915 Genocide.
    Thank you, thank you very much.
    But every 1 righteous Turk, 1000s and 1000s of Turks (and many Kurds) eagerly participated in the butchery of defenseless Armenian civilians, women, children, babies.

    It is hard for me to have any sympathy.
    , @Sam Shama
    Wow stunning story! I am speechless.
    , @Seamus Padraig
    That's a very moving story, Kiza. It restores my faith in certain individuals, though not perhaps mankind generally.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus

    As far as the actions of the Nazis go, for those people who have had no direct family exposed to it, the advise ought to be simple: speaketh not without pause and disquiet, of that which thou not knoweth!
     
    -- The other day a young German professional was guest speaker at a community luncheon. He began his remarks by relating how his great-grandfather's house was destroyed by firebombing during the war. Great-grandfather's son, a soldier on the eastern front, was permitted to go home to help his parents to recover what was possible from the devastation, and to find a new place to live. That accomplished, he returned to the eastern front.

    His family never saw him again, but nine months later the Speaker's mother was born. She never knew her father, and our German guest never had the opportunity to demand of his grandfather, as all good Germans must: What did you do in the war, Grandpa?

    The German guest speaker did not recount any words or harbored feelings of hatred; he spaketh not without pause and disquiet, of that which thou not knoweth, nor did he even hint that "of course as a survivor he had every reason to utterly despise" the Allied bombers who destroyed his great-grandparents's home.

    Exceptional.

    Do the google thing.
    How many stories of holocaust 'survivors' are recorded and repeated and recited ad nauseam?
    How many stories of the survivors of the Allied firebombing of Germany, and of the subsequent hell storm that the German people endured after the war -- millions of German women raped; another million and more of disarmed enemy combatants starved to death in Eisenhower's death camps; several more millions starved and frozen to death in population transfers.

    UNESCO Director-General Irena Bokova called the destruction of 2000 year old arches at Palmyra

    "cultural cleansing. Cultural cleansing is, in my view, is you persecute people on the basis of their ethnicity or religion. You destroy their monuments, you destroy their temples; you deprive them of their tangible heritage; you take their identities. This is totally inhumane. What we are seeing now is this systematic destruction combined with industrial scale destruction of archeological sites."
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc5melR8XAs

    "Cultural cleansing" is exactly what Allied powers planned and carried out against the German people, a form of identity destruction that, as Linh Dinh reported, is still going on today in Flagless Germany,

    “We are not just an occupied nation physically, but mentally. People know about the 40,000 American soldiers here, but who’s talking about the occupation of the German mind?”
     
    If the German Hakenkreuz , like the Confederate flag, can be banned and the full story of the German people, army and leadership systematically and maliciously defamed for generation upon generation, is any flag safe, and is any people in full possession of its own history and identity?

    What you wrote above is absolutely terrible. But it is consistent with the current re-writing of history in the West. Germany lost WW2 but then it won the subsequent “peace”, thus every hack wants to endear himself to the Germans. There is no doubt in my mind that the fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo were terrible war crimes of the British and the Americans respectively. But your construct is one typical for NATO-propagandists’:
    1) the time reversal,
    2) the cause and consequence reversal.

    Simply, Dresden would have never happened if the Germany did not start WW2. You also promote the standard Western propaganda of two million German women raped. This came out of the same post-war NATO propaganda factory as the rest, pure BS that you choose to promote.

    I am sincerely amazed at the level of the moronic rewriting of history going on in the West. The history of the WW1 has been already officially rewritten, mostly by the British “historians”: the victim became the perpetrator, Austro-Germany innocent again. Following this trend, one day we will read how the Soviet Union/Russia attacked German peace-keepers on the Eastern Front and caused WW2 (in 1941, two years after the war started).

    Read More
    • Agree: Sam Shama
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Kiza,
    I could not agree more with your practice as to the way in which to use MSM. While Putin is certainly speaking for the rest of the world as it were, and this is no small matter, it is no doubt raising the temperature in the ME for obvious reasons. It is also however, the only balancing effect I can think of.

    As far as the actions of the Nazis go, for those people who have had no direct family exposed to it, the advise ought to be simple: speaketh not without pause and disquiet, of that which thou not knoweth!

    Sam,

    It happens that I have direct family exposure. I’ve also visited Auschwitz/Birkenau, and have seen the films they screen there of when the camp was liberated. Does everyone realize that the Soviets were the liberators? I’ve read that all the “death camps” (as opposed to forced labor camps) were liberated by the Soviets. Do you know if that’s true?

    While I don’t doubt for a second the evil of the Nazis, (and I’m repulsed by today’s HBDers’ embrace of 21st century eugenics) I also know that the Bolsheviks (who had perpetrated their own Hell on Earth) had motive to emphasize and exaggerate the evil of the Nazis, even to blame them wrongly as they did in the case of the Katyn Forest massacre. And of course, the Zionists also had ulterior motive to demonize Germany.

    “Holocaust Denial” is something of a misnomer. Do you know anyone who actually says there was no dispossession, deportation, and mass murder? Only if, as some say, the Holocaust is a religion, would it be heresy to scrutinize any tenet of the story. Apparently in Germany/Europe it is now a crime to do so, and that IMO is the greater danger.

    Unfortunately, accused Holocaust denier Paul Eisen cites as influential a supposed gas-chamber execution expert whose calculations from a radically different situation seem ludicrously irrelevant. (Eisen’s superior IQ isn’t serving him well there.) But his larger point, that scholars should not be imprisoned for questioning dogma, is valid.

    Unz Review is something of a free-for-all, but it’s a place where adults are free to sift. Thankfully, Ron does not hunt down and imprison provocative commenters. Three cheers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama

    It happens that I have direct family exposure. I’ve also visited Auschwitz/Birkenau, and have seen the films they screen there of when the camp was liberated. Does everyone realize that the Soviets were the liberators? I’ve read that all the “death camps” (as opposed to forced labor camps) were liberated by the Soviets. Do you know if that’s true?
     
    My grandmother and her family were first moved to Theresienstadt. After 2 months there, people were moved to various other camps. She was moved to Minsk, while the others she heard were moved to Riga; Minsk was liberated by Russians. The last time that little girl saw the rest of her family (mother, two sisters but not her father who died previously in the war and cousins) was prior to being sent to Minsk. In 1944 the Russians basically told them to get moving and a party of about 50 strangers with many children amongst them, wandered around Minsk countryside, surviving somehow on whatever they could find and share until they reached a joint British-American garrison. Thereafter through many twists and turns of fate she found her way with distant family in the UK. So this I know to be true from her first hand account.

    Do you know anyone who actually says there was no dispossession, deportation, and mass murder?
     
    Not personally I don't, but look around the pages of UR and you will find plenty of them.

    But his larger point, that scholars should not be imprisoned for questioning dogma, is valid.

     

    Agreed. My attitude on this matter is straightforward enough. There is immense amount of evidence and historical analysis available today, especially in institutions like the Yad Vashem, avoiding which would make any serious scholarly investigation incomplete even worthless. Also very important are the points Kiza was making in comment #65, about the attempts to rewrite history.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Kiza,
    I could not agree more with your practice as to the way in which to use MSM. While Putin is certainly speaking for the rest of the world as it were, and this is no small matter, it is no doubt raising the temperature in the ME for obvious reasons. It is also however, the only balancing effect I can think of.

    As far as the actions of the Nazis go, for those people who have had no direct family exposed to it, the advise ought to be simple: speaketh not without pause and disquiet, of that which thou not knoweth!

    As far as the actions of the Nazis go, for those people who have had no direct family exposed to it, the advise ought to be simple: speaketh not without pause and disquiet, of that which thou not knoweth!

    – The other day a young German professional was guest speaker at a community luncheon. He began his remarks by relating how his great-grandfather’s house was destroyed by firebombing during the war. Great-grandfather’s son, a soldier on the eastern front, was permitted to go home to help his parents to recover what was possible from the devastation, and to find a new place to live. That accomplished, he returned to the eastern front.

    His family never saw him again, but nine months later the Speaker’s mother was born. She never knew her father, and our German guest never had the opportunity to demand of his grandfather, as all good Germans must: What did you do in the war, Grandpa?

    The German guest speaker did not recount any words or harbored feelings of hatred; he spaketh not without pause and disquiet, of that which thou not knoweth, nor did he even hint that “of course as a survivor he had every reason to utterly despise” the Allied bombers who destroyed his great-grandparents’s home.

    Exceptional.

    Do the google thing.
    How many stories of holocaust ‘survivors’ are recorded and repeated and recited ad nauseam?
    How many stories of the survivors of the Allied firebombing of Germany, and of the subsequent hell storm that the German people endured after the war — millions of German women raped; another million and more of disarmed enemy combatants starved to death in Eisenhower’s death camps; several more millions starved and frozen to death in population transfers.

    UNESCO Director-General Irena Bokova called the destruction of 2000 year old arches at Palmyra

    “cultural cleansing. Cultural cleansing is, in my view, is you persecute people on the basis of their ethnicity or religion. You destroy their monuments, you destroy their temples; you deprive them of their tangible heritage; you take their identities. This is totally inhumane. What we are seeing now is this systematic destruction combined with industrial scale destruction of archeological sites.”

    “Cultural cleansing” is exactly what Allied powers planned and carried out against the German people, a form of identity destruction that, as Linh Dinh reported, is still going on today in Flagless Germany,

    “We are not just an occupied nation physically, but mentally. People know about the 40,000 American soldiers here, but who’s talking about the occupation of the German mind?”

    If the German Hakenkreuz , like the Confederate flag, can be banned and the full story of the German people, army and leadership systematically and maliciously defamed for generation upon generation, is any flag safe, and is any people in full possession of its own history and identity?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kiza
    What you wrote above is absolutely terrible. But it is consistent with the current re-writing of history in the West. Germany lost WW2 but then it won the subsequent "peace", thus every hack wants to endear himself to the Germans. There is no doubt in my mind that the fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo were terrible war crimes of the British and the Americans respectively. But your construct is one typical for NATO-propagandists':
    1) the time reversal,
    2) the cause and consequence reversal.

    Simply, Dresden would have never happened if the Germany did not start WW2. You also promote the standard Western propaganda of two million German women raped. This came out of the same post-war NATO propaganda factory as the rest, pure BS that you choose to promote.

    I am sincerely amazed at the level of the moronic rewriting of history going on in the West. The history of the WW1 has been already officially rewritten, mostly by the British "historians": the victim became the perpetrator, Austro-Germany innocent again. Following this trend, one day we will read how the Soviet Union/Russia attacked German peace-keepers on the Eastern Front and caused WW2 (in 1941, two years after the war started).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Kiza
    Hello Carroll, thank you for your comment, your example is exactly what I had in mind. When we are young we can be excused for believing in the regime's propaganda, because we do not have much understanding of the World. Honestly, it took me not years then several decades to understand a simple fact - if there is no free lunch in this World, how come there are free media (MSM)? Or, the media are not there to inform us then to mislead us, or lying is the essential nature of the MSM. Now, I consult the MSM only to get the regime's side of the story (once you know the MSM patterns of lying, you can actually get to the truth by filtering out the familiar manipulations) and just to laugh at the constructs and methods of manipulation (sometimes the regime's lies are so crude and funny).

    Regarding Germany, I am not sure exactly what was going on at Concentration Camps, and I do not take the "official history" for fact. But I do come from a country which was devastated by Germany. My own granduncle, who was an army Major, was hanged for continuing to fight the Germans after they found some character to sign a capitulation on the country's behalf (my granduncle said - that traitor was not authorized to sign anything, let alone capitulation of the whole army). My granduncle was wounded and captured by the Germans whilst still in uniform, but then publicly hanged. Therefore, the Germans did many horrible crimes in Europe during WW2, which they started, and I am inclined to believe that they killed many, many Jews as well.

    This just like the US is helping Israel kill and make into desperate refugees so many people now. No wonder Putin said - we had enough! He spoke in the name of the whole World. Yet, Russian involvement is Syria is a highly risky move - to make things even worse. Thus I am not supporting it, just like Ron Paul is not.

    Kiza,
    I could not agree more with your practice as to the way in which to use MSM. While Putin is certainly speaking for the rest of the world as it were, and this is no small matter, it is no doubt raising the temperature in the ME for obvious reasons. It is also however, the only balancing effect I can think of.

    As far as the actions of the Nazis go, for those people who have had no direct family exposed to it, the advise ought to be simple: speaketh not without pause and disquiet, of that which thou not knoweth!

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    As far as the actions of the Nazis go, for those people who have had no direct family exposed to it, the advise ought to be simple: speaketh not without pause and disquiet, of that which thou not knoweth!
     
    -- The other day a young German professional was guest speaker at a community luncheon. He began his remarks by relating how his great-grandfather's house was destroyed by firebombing during the war. Great-grandfather's son, a soldier on the eastern front, was permitted to go home to help his parents to recover what was possible from the devastation, and to find a new place to live. That accomplished, he returned to the eastern front.

    His family never saw him again, but nine months later the Speaker's mother was born. She never knew her father, and our German guest never had the opportunity to demand of his grandfather, as all good Germans must: What did you do in the war, Grandpa?

    The German guest speaker did not recount any words or harbored feelings of hatred; he spaketh not without pause and disquiet, of that which thou not knoweth, nor did he even hint that "of course as a survivor he had every reason to utterly despise" the Allied bombers who destroyed his great-grandparents's home.

    Exceptional.

    Do the google thing.
    How many stories of holocaust 'survivors' are recorded and repeated and recited ad nauseam?
    How many stories of the survivors of the Allied firebombing of Germany, and of the subsequent hell storm that the German people endured after the war -- millions of German women raped; another million and more of disarmed enemy combatants starved to death in Eisenhower's death camps; several more millions starved and frozen to death in population transfers.

    UNESCO Director-General Irena Bokova called the destruction of 2000 year old arches at Palmyra

    "cultural cleansing. Cultural cleansing is, in my view, is you persecute people on the basis of their ethnicity or religion. You destroy their monuments, you destroy their temples; you deprive them of their tangible heritage; you take their identities. This is totally inhumane. What we are seeing now is this systematic destruction combined with industrial scale destruction of archeological sites."
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc5melR8XAs

    "Cultural cleansing" is exactly what Allied powers planned and carried out against the German people, a form of identity destruction that, as Linh Dinh reported, is still going on today in Flagless Germany,

    “We are not just an occupied nation physically, but mentally. People know about the 40,000 American soldiers here, but who’s talking about the occupation of the German mind?”
     
    If the German Hakenkreuz , like the Confederate flag, can be banned and the full story of the German people, army and leadership systematically and maliciously defamed for generation upon generation, is any flag safe, and is any people in full possession of its own history and identity?
    , @RobinG
    Sam,

    It happens that I have direct family exposure. I've also visited Auschwitz/Birkenau, and have seen the films they screen there of when the camp was liberated. Does everyone realize that the Soviets were the liberators? I've read that all the "death camps" (as opposed to forced labor camps) were liberated by the Soviets. Do you know if that's true?

    While I don't doubt for a second the evil of the Nazis, (and I'm repulsed by today's HBDers' embrace of 21st century eugenics) I also know that the Bolsheviks (who had perpetrated their own Hell on Earth) had motive to emphasize and exaggerate the evil of the Nazis, even to blame them wrongly as they did in the case of the Katyn Forest massacre. And of course, the Zionists also had ulterior motive to demonize Germany.

    "Holocaust Denial" is something of a misnomer. Do you know anyone who actually says there was no dispossession, deportation, and mass murder? Only if, as some say, the Holocaust is a religion, would it be heresy to scrutinize any tenet of the story. Apparently in Germany/Europe it is now a crime to do so, and that IMO is the greater danger.

    Unfortunately, accused Holocaust denier Paul Eisen cites as influential a supposed gas-chamber execution expert whose calculations from a radically different situation seem ludicrously irrelevant. (Eisen's superior IQ isn't serving him well there.) But his larger point, that scholars should not be imprisoned for questioning dogma, is valid.

    Unz Review is something of a free-for-all, but it's a place where adults are free to sift. Thankfully, Ron does not hunt down and imprison provocative commenters. Three cheers.
    , @Kiza
    Sam, I have to tell another story, for the sake of that balance that you mention.

    In the country I am from, which was smashed up and occupied by Germany, various armies, partisans and paramilitaries were passing through and taking any food they would find and burning crops so that the enemy would have nothing to take. To save the family from hunger, my grandfather hid food supplies underground, mostly potatoes and pork fat in amphorae. At the peak of the war, a large German military unit settled in the town and started collecting food from the locals. Refusing to hand-over food to the German military was a death sentence, but so was handing over food (only slow death instead of being shot). The Germans went from house to house searching for any hidden supplies. Five German soldiers walked into my family's large house with a barn. One German soldier opened a hatch and found the amphorae, but because he saw my grandmother with two little children of around 10 (all three blond, like most Germans) my grandmother believed that he may have had a similar family in Germany, he did not report what he found. Even if my family were not punished for not reporting food, they would have, almost certainly, died of hunger if the food were taken away.

    Such individual acts of humanity and courage in the midst of the war madness can soften one's attitudes to enemy nations. If this individual German soldier did not show humanity (and did not succumb to the German war propaganda that the locals were subhuman lower race), I would not be here today typing this.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Yes, we’re exceptional all right. Why look at the exceptional shape most of our nation’s dams are in, as South Carolina found out when dozens collapsed due to too much rain. Look at our exceptional highways, looking more and more like roads in some 3rd world hell-hole.
    Look at our exceptional electrical energy system, especially the over-burdened transmission lines that are one hot Summer away from failing. Shall I mention the past the safety date our aging nuke plants?

    I could go on, but you get the drift. We’ve spent so much money and time on propping up Israel and saving corrupt Wall Street banks that there’s nothing left for our infrastructure. When or probably if the economy tries to rebound, it won’t be able to, due to the pathetic shape of our infrastructure.

    Now that’s exceptional!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “America, land of 4% psychopaths and 95% psychopath wannabes.

    The remaining 1% are the real victims.”

    Well, I have no doubt which category you fall in, but don’t leave me guessing. Do I fall into the select group of 4%, or am I a member of the hoi polloi 95%? Don’t vote for Trump in any event since I don’t think he could possibly solve any of your problems. BTW you’re fired!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @tbraton
    "Do you ever get the feeling that you are being manipulated by the Trump-monkey?
    You should because you are."

    That's why we should disdain Trump and vote for the other Republican candidate who is saying the same things as Trump, right? Please remind me which candidate that is because his name is eluding me for the moment.

    Keep on believing government lover because you and your kind are the problem.

    America, land of 4% psychopaths and 95% psychopath wannabes.

    The remaining 1% are the real victims.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Carroll Price
    Maybe the German people weren't aware of what the "Nazis were doing" because the Nazis didn't do anything unusually bad or evil. If you are completely honest, you will have to admit that everything you think you know about Nazism (including the 6 million holocau$t myth) has been fed to you by a Jewish owned and Jewish controlled news and entertainment industry.

    Hello Carroll, thank you for your comment, your example is exactly what I had in mind. When we are young we can be excused for believing in the regime’s propaganda, because we do not have much understanding of the World. Honestly, it took me not years then several decades to understand a simple fact – if there is no free lunch in this World, how come there are free media (MSM)? Or, the media are not there to inform us then to mislead us, or lying is the essential nature of the MSM. Now, I consult the MSM only to get the regime’s side of the story (once you know the MSM patterns of lying, you can actually get to the truth by filtering out the familiar manipulations) and just to laugh at the constructs and methods of manipulation (sometimes the regime’s lies are so crude and funny).

    Regarding Germany, I am not sure exactly what was going on at Concentration Camps, and I do not take the “official history” for fact. But I do come from a country which was devastated by Germany. My own granduncle, who was an army Major, was hanged for continuing to fight the Germans after they found some character to sign a capitulation on the country’s behalf (my granduncle said – that traitor was not authorized to sign anything, let alone capitulation of the whole army). My granduncle was wounded and captured by the Germans whilst still in uniform, but then publicly hanged. Therefore, the Germans did many horrible crimes in Europe during WW2, which they started, and I am inclined to believe that they killed many, many Jews as well.

    This just like the US is helping Israel kill and make into desperate refugees so many people now. No wonder Putin said – we had enough! He spoke in the name of the whole World. Yet, Russian involvement is Syria is a highly risky move – to make things even worse. Thus I am not supporting it, just like Ron Paul is not.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Kiza,
    I could not agree more with your practice as to the way in which to use MSM. While Putin is certainly speaking for the rest of the world as it were, and this is no small matter, it is no doubt raising the temperature in the ME for obvious reasons. It is also however, the only balancing effect I can think of.

    As far as the actions of the Nazis go, for those people who have had no direct family exposed to it, the advise ought to be simple: speaketh not without pause and disquiet, of that which thou not knoweth!

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Kiza
    Occasionally, here to unz.com an Unconditional American Patriot wonders in. It is my country can do no wrong, even when it is doing horrendous subhuman crimes. This challenges the notion that it is all US Government and not the US people doing these crimes. With a full dose of objectivity and understanding for humane failings, I still cannot accept someone saying later - oh "I did not know", or "they lied to me". As a human being with a thinking mind, you have a duty to face the reality, no matter how discomforting it is, instead of seeking refuge in the comfort of the regime's propaganda and rha, rha nationalism.

    In other words, you cannot blame your Government for being stupid by believing the propaganda BS it serves, it is your own responsibility to resists no matter how skillful the professional regime propagandists are. The regime's and presstitutes' job is to serve propaganda to the masses, the job of the thinking individuals is to resist.

    It always comes to my mind how after the WW2 most Germans would say: "I did not know what Nazis were doing", the shittiest excuse if I ever heard one.

    Maybe the German people weren’t aware of what the “Nazis were doing” because the Nazis didn’t do anything unusually bad or evil. If you are completely honest, you will have to admit that everything you think you know about Nazism (including the 6 million holocau$t myth) has been fed to you by a Jewish owned and Jewish controlled news and entertainment industry.

    Read More
    • Agree: SolontoCroesus
    • Disagree: Sam Shama
    • Replies: @Kiza
    Hello Carroll, thank you for your comment, your example is exactly what I had in mind. When we are young we can be excused for believing in the regime's propaganda, because we do not have much understanding of the World. Honestly, it took me not years then several decades to understand a simple fact - if there is no free lunch in this World, how come there are free media (MSM)? Or, the media are not there to inform us then to mislead us, or lying is the essential nature of the MSM. Now, I consult the MSM only to get the regime's side of the story (once you know the MSM patterns of lying, you can actually get to the truth by filtering out the familiar manipulations) and just to laugh at the constructs and methods of manipulation (sometimes the regime's lies are so crude and funny).

    Regarding Germany, I am not sure exactly what was going on at Concentration Camps, and I do not take the "official history" for fact. But I do come from a country which was devastated by Germany. My own granduncle, who was an army Major, was hanged for continuing to fight the Germans after they found some character to sign a capitulation on the country's behalf (my granduncle said - that traitor was not authorized to sign anything, let alone capitulation of the whole army). My granduncle was wounded and captured by the Germans whilst still in uniform, but then publicly hanged. Therefore, the Germans did many horrible crimes in Europe during WW2, which they started, and I am inclined to believe that they killed many, many Jews as well.

    This just like the US is helping Israel kill and make into desperate refugees so many people now. No wonder Putin said - we had enough! He spoke in the name of the whole World. Yet, Russian involvement is Syria is a highly risky move - to make things even worse. Thus I am not supporting it, just like Ron Paul is not.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Kiza
    Hello annamarina, welcome back to unz.com.

    It appears that Thomas has swallowed only one half of the red-pill: he claims to understand what the US Government is doing, but he claims that the Russian Government is even worse, especially the "arch-villain" Putin.

    It is actually so funny that the Western MSM have such a chorus of well trained parrots who keep repeating their talking points.

    Personally, as a Libertarian, I am against any government, but no matter how corrupt the Russian Government may be, it is not even remotely comparable with the totally rotten US system of governance. From the time when I was a kid and learning history in school (yes, there was a time when kids where actually thought World history), I remember descriptions of corruption of the different empires before their end. But I honestly could have never imagined that something like the US could even exist. I would like to suggest that the most iconic image of the US Empire should be the 5 minute standing ovation to the Nutty Yahoo in the US Congress https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KMVhb57RqI. All children of the World of the future should be thought the meaning of government corruption using this video - this is what you do not want your country to sink down to. Simply, if the Nutty happened to drop his pants down, almost everyone in the US Congress would have stuck his/her tongue out to lick his ass.

    I grew up during the Cold War era, having graduated from high school in 1960, the year CIA agent Francis Gary Power’s U-2 spy plane was shot down over the Soviet Union. At that young age, I quite naturally believed everything I read in the US press and discounted as “propaganda” excerpts from Soviet news stories we occasionally exposed to. But what I found out later (and what I know now) is that many of the news stories published by Soviet papers of the time were far more true and accurate than what we were told by the Associated Press and other American news networks. With the aforementioned Francis Gary Powers incident serving as a good example of Russian “propaganda” of the event being essentially accurate, and US accounts mostly false.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @KA
    This is called freedom of expression of American variety . Censoring is the way to honor the American respect for decency . Editing and redacting the analysis of a leaders are all fair game even when the leader is offering the most relevant background behind the issue on hand .

    The same strategy is used by arrogant right-wing nuts like Shaun Hannity, Bill O-Reilly and Rush Limbaugh, who invite people on their shows, then talk-over them and drown them out to prevent them from giving logical and meaningful answers. And if you read the unedited transcript of the Putin/Charlie Rose interview, you will find that Putin was forced to instruct Charlie Rose to stop interrupting him and allow him to complete his statements.

    http://www.sott.net/article/302911-Sott-Exclusive-Full-unedited-text-of-Vladimir-Putins-interview-with-Charlie-Rose-What-CBS-left-out

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    Holy fuck. that is alot of cuts.

    so 60 minutes is also just another propaganda outlet now.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Positive Dennis
    The reasons that propaganda is used is that it works. Most people do not have a clue about what goes on in the world. I overheard this at a local restaurant. "Putin kills children." Even with the US bombing of the hospital in Afghanistan, I doubt most people still think any different.

    Occasionally, here to unz.com an Unconditional American Patriot wonders in. It is my country can do no wrong, even when it is doing horrendous subhuman crimes. This challenges the notion that it is all US Government and not the US people doing these crimes. With a full dose of objectivity and understanding for humane failings, I still cannot accept someone saying later – oh “I did not know”, or “they lied to me”. As a human being with a thinking mind, you have a duty to face the reality, no matter how discomforting it is, instead of seeking refuge in the comfort of the regime’s propaganda and rha, rha nationalism.

    In other words, you cannot blame your Government for being stupid by believing the propaganda BS it serves, it is your own responsibility to resists no matter how skillful the professional regime propagandists are. The regime’s and presstitutes’ job is to serve propaganda to the masses, the job of the thinking individuals is to resist.

    It always comes to my mind how after the WW2 most Germans would say: “I did not know what Nazis were doing”, the shittiest excuse if I ever heard one.

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    • Replies: @Carroll Price
    Maybe the German people weren't aware of what the "Nazis were doing" because the Nazis didn't do anything unusually bad or evil. If you are completely honest, you will have to admit that everything you think you know about Nazism (including the 6 million holocau$t myth) has been fed to you by a Jewish owned and Jewish controlled news and entertainment industry.
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  • […] Philip GiraldiOctober 07, 2015 “Information Clearing House” – “Unz Review” –  When I was growing up in New Jersey there were a lot of colorful expressions that […]

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  • @annamaria
    "Putin’s critics in the Russian press and politics keep turning up dead. Ask their families if Putin is a despot or not."
    Could you substantiate your statement? It is hard to be an admirer of the KGB graduate, but the strong connection with secret services is not Russia-specific. Bush the Elder comes to mind. The murder of the flamboyant Nemtsov in the context of the perfectly recognizable backdrop, Moscow Kremlin, was rather suspicious but not with regard to Putin. Compare the noise that MSM has produced about the murder of the unimportant critic of Kremlin regime with the mute reaction of the same MSM towards a series of "suicides" and open killings of journalists and critics of Kiev regime. And going back to Bush family, is not it strange that the handsome Bush the Lesser was not accused of being a youthful philanderer, ever? What has happened to all his belles? And what is the true story of Michael Hastings death?
    "I suspect that the gibberish our political elite speak and the irrational and self contradictory nature of their goals are an inevitable consequence of our mass democracy." If only. In case you have missed the Princeton study, the USA is a plutocracy, hence the gibberish and self-contradictory noise from the "people's representatives" and presstitute.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy

    ” It is hard to be an admirer of the KGB graduate,”

    Would you like to rephrase that, or rethink it? After all, here we are, flocked (appreciatively and admiringly) around CIA graduate Philip Giraldi.

    The intelligence services, as a rule, recruit highly qualified individuals. Those people are then included in specialized information networks. They have access to raw data and gain perspective few outsiders can hope for. Also, a career analyst (as opposed to a dirty-tricks field operative) is far different from a political appointee like GWH Bush. The disastrous 2003 US assault on Iraq happened in spite of CIA analysis, not because of it. Likewise the malicious allegations about Iran’s (non-existent) nuclear weapons program.

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  • The reasons that propaganda is used is that it works. Most people do not have a clue about what goes on in the world. I overheard this at a local restaurant. “Putin kills children.” Even with the US bombing of the hospital in Afghanistan, I doubt most people still think any different.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kiza
    Occasionally, here to unz.com an Unconditional American Patriot wonders in. It is my country can do no wrong, even when it is doing horrendous subhuman crimes. This challenges the notion that it is all US Government and not the US people doing these crimes. With a full dose of objectivity and understanding for humane failings, I still cannot accept someone saying later - oh "I did not know", or "they lied to me". As a human being with a thinking mind, you have a duty to face the reality, no matter how discomforting it is, instead of seeking refuge in the comfort of the regime's propaganda and rha, rha nationalism.

    In other words, you cannot blame your Government for being stupid by believing the propaganda BS it serves, it is your own responsibility to resists no matter how skillful the professional regime propagandists are. The regime's and presstitutes' job is to serve propaganda to the masses, the job of the thinking individuals is to resist.

    It always comes to my mind how after the WW2 most Germans would say: "I did not know what Nazis were doing", the shittiest excuse if I ever heard one.

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  • Mr. Giraldi,

    I think I’ve finally figured it out: this exceptionalism stuff has afflicted much of the country with PTSD.

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  • @dahoit
    That was no mistake.
    Remember a C130 was shot? down a week or so ago,it might have been a military payback issue by rogue soldiers.

    There is a competing explanation: “… to get back to the Afghanistan government for talking to Russia and Iran, the U.S. bombed and incinerated the large hospital kills at least 9 doctors and 3 Children, Calls It “Collateral Damage”

    http://thesaker.is/thank-you-russia-its-nice-to-see-what-mission-accomplished-really-means-scott-rant/

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  • @WhatEvvs
    Hey Phil, I'm waiting for you to address what happened in Kunduz. I mean, mistakes happen in wartime. Right?

    That was no mistake.
    Remember a C130 was shot? down a week or so ago,it might have been a military payback issue by rogue soldiers.

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    There is a competing explanation: "... to get back to the Afghanistan government for talking to Russia and Iran, the U.S. bombed and incinerated the large hospital kills at least 9 doctors and 3 Children, Calls It “Collateral Damage”
    http://thesaker.is/thank-you-russia-its-nice-to-see-what-mission-accomplished-really-means-scott-rant/
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  • @annamaria
    "Putin’s critics in the Russian press and politics keep turning up dead. Ask their families if Putin is a despot or not."
    Could you substantiate your statement? It is hard to be an admirer of the KGB graduate, but the strong connection with secret services is not Russia-specific. Bush the Elder comes to mind. The murder of the flamboyant Nemtsov in the context of the perfectly recognizable backdrop, Moscow Kremlin, was rather suspicious but not with regard to Putin. Compare the noise that MSM has produced about the murder of the unimportant critic of Kremlin regime with the mute reaction of the same MSM towards a series of "suicides" and open killings of journalists and critics of Kiev regime. And going back to Bush family, is not it strange that the handsome Bush the Lesser was not accused of being a youthful philanderer, ever? What has happened to all his belles? And what is the true story of Michael Hastings death?
    "I suspect that the gibberish our political elite speak and the irrational and self contradictory nature of their goals are an inevitable consequence of our mass democracy." If only. In case you have missed the Princeton study, the USA is a plutocracy, hence the gibberish and self-contradictory noise from the "people's representatives" and presstitute.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy

    The KGB was the Soviet national security agency,similar to the CIA.I can’t recall any KGB actions outside of the SU which affected the world.But I can recall many CIA actions that have helped destroy that world.
    Of course the Zionists claim otherwise,but serial liars statements should be given a wide berth.

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  • @SolontoCroesus
    On a practical note --

    If Putin manages to vanquish ISIS-ISIL-DAESH, who gets to keep the Toyotas that were most likely built in Texas, USA to specifications of US CIA?

    http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2015/10/httpstwittercomkuryersatstatus650945667729354752.html#comment-6a00d8341c72e153ef01b7c7d9533a970b

    ISIS Army Parades in 43 New Toyota Hilux Trucks – Donated By US Taxpayers Jim Hoft Sep 10th, 2014

    This one Toyota pickup truck is at the top of the shopping list for the Free Syrian Army — and the Taliban

    “We’ve got Iraqi army battalions driving around in Toyota trucks,” General McCaffrey, 2007" (McCaffrey knows this because he brokered the sale).

    I thought that ISIS had traded in their Toyota pickups for Humvees. I understand they got an unbelievable deal, which they found impossible to resist.

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  • @Drapetomaniac
    Do you ever get the feeling that you are being manipulated by the Trump-monkey?

    You should because you are.

    “Do you ever get the feeling that you are being manipulated by the Trump-monkey?
    You should because you are.”

    That’s why we should disdain Trump and vote for the other Republican candidate who is saying the same things as Trump, right? Please remind me which candidate that is because his name is eluding me for the moment.

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    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
    Keep on believing government lover because you and your kind are the problem.

    America, land of 4% psychopaths and 95% psychopath wannabes.

    The remaining 1% are the real victims.
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  • @RobinG
    Full text is on Kremlin website. Link below.

    "The day before his much-anticipated address to the UN General Assembly on Monday, CBS broadcast Charlie Rose's interview with Russian President Vladimir Putin for its season premiere of 60 Minutes. Understandably, the interview was cut and edited to fit in the 20-minute slot available in the program. But now that the full transcript has been made available on the Kremlin website, it's fascinating to see just what was cut. We're including the full transcript below, with comments identifying which parts were not included in the final broadcast, or as special online clips.

    "From single sentences to entire exchanges, some of the exclusions are noteworthy. For example, practically the whole of Putin's commentary on the Minsk agreements was not aired. Nor were Putin's pointed comments on Libya and Syria, his observation that the U.S.'s actions in those countries was a blatant violation of international law, and his suggestion that "somebody wants to use either certain units of ISIS or ISIS in general in order to overthrow al-Assad and only then think about how to get rid of ISIS." Other exchanges, such as Putin's views on sanctions and gay rights, were broadcast online, but not in the final program."




    http://www.sott.net/article/302911-Full-unedited-text-of-Vladimir-Putins-interview-with-Charlie-Rose-What-CBS-left-out

    “But now that the full transcript has been made available on the Kremlin website,”

    I was going to post a link to the full transcript (which was brought to my attention by Minnesota Mary on another thread), but I see you beat me to the punch. What I find most astounding is the language excerpted above which points out that the full transcript is available on the Kremlin website. How far we’ve come. As Minnesota Mary asked on the other thread, “who’s the Evil Empire now?”

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  • “he [then] lamented that ‘we have isolated Israel while bolding places like Iran.’ ”

    Oh, come on, PG. Cut the man a little slack. That is obviously a typo. We all make them. What he clearly meant to say was “while bolting places like Iran.” How does one say “dumber than Boehner” in Pashtu?

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  • @Kiza
    Dear Rurik, George Washington is like a being from another Universe. I cannot imagine what he would feel if he could see today's US. The contemporary reality of the US is so removed from the ideals of the Enlightenment and the founding principles of the US, that the whole thing is meaningless. One could safely add a NO or an opposite to each founding principle and be exactly right about today's US. That is, the US turned opposite to what it was meant to be.

    If I had only one question for George Washington, it would be what he thought about NSA surveillance of the general US population. But he probably could not believe what the UK turned into either. Technology for enslavement, is that not just opposite to Enlightenment?

    Washington would say, much like Franklin, Jeffferson, et al, that we might as well have stayed subjects of the Crown. George III would have never dreamed of doing to his subjects what Presidents routinely due to us. And the taxes over which the colonists rebelled? If we were taxed at those rates today, even Grover Nordquist would be cool with it.

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  • An exceptional column!

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  • Dear Rurik, George Washington is like a being from another Universe. I cannot imagine what he would feel if he could see today’s US. The contemporary reality of the US is so removed from the ideals of the Enlightenment and the founding principles of the US, that the whole thing is meaningless. One could safely add a NO or an opposite to each founding principle and be exactly right about today’s US. That is, the US turned opposite to what it was meant to be.

    If I had only one question for George Washington, it would be what he thought about NSA surveillance of the general US population. But he probably could not believe what the UK turned into either. Technology for enslavement, is that not just opposite to Enlightenment?

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    • Replies: @njguy73
    Washington would say, much like Franklin, Jeffferson, et al, that we might as well have stayed subjects of the Crown. George III would have never dreamed of doing to his subjects what Presidents routinely due to us. And the taxes over which the colonists rebelled? If we were taxed at those rates today, even Grover Nordquist would be cool with it.
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  • @RobinG
    Full text is on Kremlin website. Link below.

    "The day before his much-anticipated address to the UN General Assembly on Monday, CBS broadcast Charlie Rose's interview with Russian President Vladimir Putin for its season premiere of 60 Minutes. Understandably, the interview was cut and edited to fit in the 20-minute slot available in the program. But now that the full transcript has been made available on the Kremlin website, it's fascinating to see just what was cut. We're including the full transcript below, with comments identifying which parts were not included in the final broadcast, or as special online clips.

    "From single sentences to entire exchanges, some of the exclusions are noteworthy. For example, practically the whole of Putin's commentary on the Minsk agreements was not aired. Nor were Putin's pointed comments on Libya and Syria, his observation that the U.S.'s actions in those countries was a blatant violation of international law, and his suggestion that "somebody wants to use either certain units of ISIS or ISIS in general in order to overthrow al-Assad and only then think about how to get rid of ISIS." Other exchanges, such as Putin's views on sanctions and gay rights, were broadcast online, but not in the final program."




    http://www.sott.net/article/302911-Full-unedited-text-of-Vladimir-Putins-interview-with-Charlie-Rose-What-CBS-left-out

    Censorship in a democracy, such as practiced by CBS, is symptomatic of social and moral decadance, if not degeneracy. Not only sad but very dangerous.

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  • @Kiza
    Hello annamarina, welcome back to unz.com.

    It appears that Thomas has swallowed only one half of the red-pill: he claims to understand what the US Government is doing, but he claims that the Russian Government is even worse, especially the "arch-villain" Putin.

    It is actually so funny that the Western MSM have such a chorus of well trained parrots who keep repeating their talking points.

    Personally, as a Libertarian, I am against any government, but no matter how corrupt the Russian Government may be, it is not even remotely comparable with the totally rotten US system of governance. From the time when I was a kid and learning history in school (yes, there was a time when kids where actually thought World history), I remember descriptions of corruption of the different empires before their end. But I honestly could have never imagined that something like the US could even exist. I would like to suggest that the most iconic image of the US Empire should be the 5 minute standing ovation to the Nutty Yahoo in the US Congress https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KMVhb57RqI. All children of the World of the future should be thought the meaning of government corruption using this video - this is what you do not want your country to sink down to. Simply, if the Nutty happened to drop his pants down, almost everyone in the US Congress would have stuck his/her tongue out to lick his ass.

    All children of the World of the future should be thought the meaning of government corruption using this video – this is what you do not want your country to sink down to. Simply, if the Nutty happened to drop his pants down, almost everyone in the US Congress would have stuck his/her tongue out to lick his ass.

    this is the image I think of when I ponder the US of olde

    it is said he would bow to no man nor earthly authority but did bow to his God

    a man could do worse

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  • @Anonymous
    Actually, Putin did respond by mentioning Libya. But the good folks at CBS decided that this was impossible for sensative American ears to hear, so they edited all those comments out. Somewhere I saw a good piece comparing the un-edited transcript of the interview from the Kremlin with what actually made it on to American TV. Libya was carefully edited out of the discussion. For that matter, we learned this week that 60 minutes accepts planted questions from the US government on such occaisions. So, everyone should aware that if you watch this stuff, the questions are arranged in advance by the USG and the responses are carefully edited. And the edits weren't just for time, but instead they chopped and parsed the paragraphs of what Putin said, picking sentence by sentence and phrase by phrase what Americans get to hear.

    This is called freedom of expression of American variety . Censoring is the way to honor the American respect for decency . Editing and redacting the analysis of a leaders are all fair game even when the leader is offering the most relevant background behind the issue on hand .

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    • Replies: @Carroll Price
    The same strategy is used by arrogant right-wing nuts like Shaun Hannity, Bill O-Reilly and Rush Limbaugh, who invite people on their shows, then talk-over them and drown them out to prevent them from giving logical and meaningful answers. And if you read the unedited transcript of the Putin/Charlie Rose interview, you will find that Putin was forced to instruct Charlie Rose to stop interrupting him and allow him to complete his statements.

    http://www.sott.net/article/302911-Sott-Exclusive-Full-unedited-text-of-Vladimir-Putins-interview-with-Charlie-Rose-What-CBS-left-out
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  • New evidence of alliance between “moderates” and Jihadis
    Meanwhile, further evidence has surfaced, confirming collusion of so-called “moderates” with Salafi/Jihadi groups. Indeed, the rebel factions in the Rastan enclave have now established another “joint operations room” (sort of a command and control centre), in which remnants of FSA units will join hard-core “Jabhat al-Nusra” (JaN) and “Ahrar al-Sham” representatives.
    While last week’s reports in the mainstream media were buzzing with statements by rebel commander Jamil al-Saleh, who explained that there were no Jihadis in his area, it now turns out that his troops have entered into a tactical alliance with the same Jihadis he claimed were not even present in the first place.
    This piece of evidence should be another blow for the still popular myth of the “moderate” rebels. In particular, the new terminology used by Beltway experts and DC officials, calling the radicals “Islamic conservatives” or “Islamic nationalists”, can now be seen as the plain repackaging effort it has been since its inception.
    In addition to Jihadi heavyweights “Jabhat al-Nusra” and “Ahrar al-Sham”, the Rastan “joint operations room” regroups “Faylaq al-Homs” and “Jaish al-Tawhid”. As previously stated, names don’t really matter that much when it comes to Syrian rebels and JaN’s ascendancy in terms of “command and control” and “force multiplier” can be taken for granted.
    Ahrar al-Sham’s connection to Al Qaeda central
    The same can be said – to a lesser degree – of “Ahrar al-Sham” (AAS), a sometimes overlooked but increasingly powerful group, that survived the destruction of its entire leadership during a bombing late last year and has since then regained power and traction through its alliance with JaN, under the coalition name “Jaish al-Fath”.
    Although AAS did not pledge formally allegiance to Al Qaeda’s leader, the group has a strong ideological, religious and strategic connection to Ayman al-Zawahiri, through some of AAS’ founding fathers, or spiritual leaders if you will, such as Abu Musab al-Suri and Abu Khalid al-Suri.
    The former is a long term acquaintance of Osama Bin Laden, whom he met in the late 1980s in Afghanistan. Abu Musab al-Suri made a name for himself in the world of global Jihad as the author of “The Global Islamic Resistance Call “, a manual that is considered by many as the blue-print for Al Qaeda’s strategy in the post-9/11 world. He is also suspected of having been involved in the Madrid train bombings in 2004. Although his current whereabouts are not clear, al-Suri’s teachings were taken fully onboard by Ahrar al-Sham’s military leadership.

    http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2015/10/short-and-sharp-russian-airstrikes-on-rastan-enclave-and-latest-rebel-moves.html

    Well. Don’t we have “support the troops” moment? The Zionists’ plan for the Middle East is in flower, open for observation. Do the US have any moral ground left, at all?

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  • @annamaria
    "Putin’s critics in the Russian press and politics keep turning up dead. Ask their families if Putin is a despot or not."
    Could you substantiate your statement? It is hard to be an admirer of the KGB graduate, but the strong connection with secret services is not Russia-specific. Bush the Elder comes to mind. The murder of the flamboyant Nemtsov in the context of the perfectly recognizable backdrop, Moscow Kremlin, was rather suspicious but not with regard to Putin. Compare the noise that MSM has produced about the murder of the unimportant critic of Kremlin regime with the mute reaction of the same MSM towards a series of "suicides" and open killings of journalists and critics of Kiev regime. And going back to Bush family, is not it strange that the handsome Bush the Lesser was not accused of being a youthful philanderer, ever? What has happened to all his belles? And what is the true story of Michael Hastings death?
    "I suspect that the gibberish our political elite speak and the irrational and self contradictory nature of their goals are an inevitable consequence of our mass democracy." If only. In case you have missed the Princeton study, the USA is a plutocracy, hence the gibberish and self-contradictory noise from the "people's representatives" and presstitute.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy

    Hello annamarina, welcome back to unz.com.

    It appears that Thomas has swallowed only one half of the red-pill: he claims to understand what the US Government is doing, but he claims that the Russian Government is even worse, especially the “arch-villain” Putin.

    It is actually so funny that the Western MSM have such a chorus of well trained parrots who keep repeating their talking points.

    Personally, as a Libertarian, I am against any government, but no matter how corrupt the Russian Government may be, it is not even remotely comparable with the totally rotten US system of governance. From the time when I was a kid and learning history in school (yes, there was a time when kids where actually thought World history), I remember descriptions of corruption of the different empires before their end. But I honestly could have never imagined that something like the US could even exist. I would like to suggest that the most iconic image of the US Empire should be the 5 minute standing ovation to the Nutty Yahoo in the US Congress https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KMVhb57RqI. All children of the World of the future should be thought the meaning of government corruption using this video – this is what you do not want your country to sink down to. Simply, if the Nutty happened to drop his pants down, almost everyone in the US Congress would have stuck his/her tongue out to lick his ass.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    All children of the World of the future should be thought the meaning of government corruption using this video – this is what you do not want your country to sink down to. Simply, if the Nutty happened to drop his pants down, almost everyone in the US Congress would have stuck his/her tongue out to lick his ass.
     
    this is the image I think of when I ponder the US of olde

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nFUq8O1wff0/Su-sh2fuZOI/AAAAAAAAHdU/Do_OCyKSmhQ/s400/george+washington+w+horse.jpg

    it is said he would bow to no man nor earthly authority but did bow to his God

    a man could do worse
    , @Carroll Price
    I grew up during the Cold War era, having graduated from high school in 1960, the year CIA agent Francis Gary Power's U-2 spy plane was shot down over the Soviet Union. At that young age, I quite naturally believed everything I read in the US press and discounted as "propaganda" excerpts from Soviet news stories we occasionally exposed to. But what I found out later (and what I know now) is that many of the news stories published by Soviet papers of the time were far more true and accurate than what we were told by the Associated Press and other American news networks. With the aforementioned Francis Gary Powers incident serving as a good example of Russian "propaganda" of the event being essentially accurate, and US accounts mostly false.
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  • WhatEvvs [AKA "Anonymuss Annie"] says:

    Hey Phil, I’m waiting for you to address what happened in Kunduz. I mean, mistakes happen in wartime. Right?

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    • Replies: @dahoit
    That was no mistake.
    Remember a C130 was shot? down a week or so ago,it might have been a military payback issue by rogue soldiers.
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  • @Thomas O. Meehan
    Putin's critics in the Russian press and politics keep turning up dead. Ask their families if Putin is a despot or not. Personally, I don't dwell on Putin's methods. That's for Russians to consider.

    Putin speaks with both clarity and authority in terms of his objectives. The leaders of my country (USA), speak and act in a confused and dysfunctional manner. I suspect that the gibberish our political elite speak and the irrational and self contradictory nature of their goals are an inevitable consequence of our mass democracy. The masses of asses cannot cope with dispassionate rule.

    “Putin’s critics in the Russian press and politics keep turning up dead. Ask their families if Putin is a despot or not.”
    Could you substantiate your statement? It is hard to be an admirer of the KGB graduate, but the strong connection with secret services is not Russia-specific. Bush the Elder comes to mind. The murder of the flamboyant Nemtsov in the context of the perfectly recognizable backdrop, Moscow Kremlin, was rather suspicious but not with regard to Putin. Compare the noise that MSM has produced about the murder of the unimportant critic of Kremlin regime with the mute reaction of the same MSM towards a series of “suicides” and open killings of journalists and critics of Kiev regime. And going back to Bush family, is not it strange that the handsome Bush the Lesser was not accused of being a youthful philanderer, ever? What has happened to all his belles? And what is the true story of Michael Hastings death?
    “I suspect that the gibberish our political elite speak and the irrational and self contradictory nature of their goals are an inevitable consequence of our mass democracy.” If only. In case you have missed the Princeton study, the USA is a plutocracy, hence the gibberish and self-contradictory noise from the “people’s representatives” and presstitute.

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy

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    • Replies: @Kiza
    Hello annamarina, welcome back to unz.com.

    It appears that Thomas has swallowed only one half of the red-pill: he claims to understand what the US Government is doing, but he claims that the Russian Government is even worse, especially the "arch-villain" Putin.

    It is actually so funny that the Western MSM have such a chorus of well trained parrots who keep repeating their talking points.

    Personally, as a Libertarian, I am against any government, but no matter how corrupt the Russian Government may be, it is not even remotely comparable with the totally rotten US system of governance. From the time when I was a kid and learning history in school (yes, there was a time when kids where actually thought World history), I remember descriptions of corruption of the different empires before their end. But I honestly could have never imagined that something like the US could even exist. I would like to suggest that the most iconic image of the US Empire should be the 5 minute standing ovation to the Nutty Yahoo in the US Congress https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KMVhb57RqI. All children of the World of the future should be thought the meaning of government corruption using this video - this is what you do not want your country to sink down to. Simply, if the Nutty happened to drop his pants down, almost everyone in the US Congress would have stuck his/her tongue out to lick his ass.

    , @dahoit
    The KGB was the Soviet national security agency,similar to the CIA.I can't recall any KGB actions outside of the SU which affected the world.But I can recall many CIA actions that have helped destroy that world.
    Of course the Zionists claim otherwise,but serial liars statements should be given a wide berth.
    , @RobinG
    " It is hard to be an admirer of the KGB graduate,"

    Would you like to rephrase that, or rethink it? After all, here we are, flocked (appreciatively and admiringly) around CIA graduate Philip Giraldi.

    The intelligence services, as a rule, recruit highly qualified individuals. Those people are then included in specialized information networks. They have access to raw data and gain perspective few outsiders can hope for. Also, a career analyst (as opposed to a dirty-tricks field operative) is far different from a political appointee like GWH Bush. The disastrous 2003 US assault on Iraq happened in spite of CIA analysis, not because of it. Likewise the malicious allegations about Iran's (non-existent) nuclear weapons program.
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  • And when Kevin McCarthy was listing the countries he’s been to, “Hungaria” was in the list.

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  • @Thomas O. Meehan
    Putin's critics in the Russian press and politics keep turning up dead. Ask their families if Putin is a despot or not. Personally, I don't dwell on Putin's methods. That's for Russians to consider.

    Putin speaks with both clarity and authority in terms of his objectives. The leaders of my country (USA), speak and act in a confused and dysfunctional manner. I suspect that the gibberish our political elite speak and the irrational and self contradictory nature of their goals are an inevitable consequence of our mass democracy. The masses of asses cannot cope with dispassionate rule.

    {“Putin’s critics in the Russian press and politics keep turning up dead. Ask their families if Putin is a despot or not.”}

    Yes, of course: Putin’s critics turn up dead, so he must have ordered their killings.
    Of course it is not possible at all that enemies of Russia and Putin arranged for those killings, just so they can blame Putin.
    Those anti-Russian psychopaths were not above killing 100s of Syrians by gas attack so that they could blame President Assad and manufacture a crossed “red line”, so US could start carpet bombing.
    You think those people would have problem murdering a few dozen individuals to achieve their geopolitical goals ?

    Putin’s critics are dime a dozen.
    Putin’s approval rating consistently hovers above mid 60s and has hit close to 90.
    Why would Putin risk anything by killing insignificant nobodies ?

    Russian people couldn’t care less what those alleged critics bloviate about.
    Putin’s approval ratings, done by respected and independent outfits, prove it.

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    • Agree: Orville H. Larson
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    Actually, Putin did respond by mentioning Libya. But the good folks at CBS decided that this was impossible for sensative American ears to hear, so they edited all those comments out. Somewhere I saw a good piece comparing the un-edited transcript of the interview from the Kremlin with what actually made it on to American TV. Libya was carefully edited out of the discussion. For that matter, we learned this week that 60 minutes accepts planted questions from the US government on such occaisions. So, everyone should aware that if you watch this stuff, the questions are arranged in advance by the USG and the responses are carefully edited. And the edits weren't just for time, but instead they chopped and parsed the paragraphs of what Putin said, picking sentence by sentence and phrase by phrase what Americans get to hear.

    Full text is on Kremlin website. Link below.

    “The day before his much-anticipated address to the UN General Assembly on Monday, CBS broadcast Charlie Rose’s interview with Russian President Vladimir Putin for its season premiere of 60 Minutes. Understandably, the interview was cut and edited to fit in the 20-minute slot available in the program. But now that the full transcript has been made available on the Kremlin website, it’s fascinating to see just what was cut. We’re including the full transcript below, with comments identifying which parts were not included in the final broadcast, or as special online clips.

    “From single sentences to entire exchanges, some of the exclusions are noteworthy. For example, practically the whole of Putin’s commentary on the Minsk agreements was not aired. Nor were Putin’s pointed comments on Libya and Syria, his observation that the U.S.’s actions in those countries was a blatant violation of international law, and his suggestion that “somebody wants to use either certain units of ISIS or ISIS in general in order to overthrow al-Assad and only then think about how to get rid of ISIS.” Other exchanges, such as Putin’s views on sanctions and gay rights, were broadcast online, but not in the final program.”

    http://www.sott.net/article/302911-Full-unedited-text-of-Vladimir-Putins-interview-with-Charlie-Rose-What-CBS-left-out

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    • Replies: @animalogic
    Censorship in a democracy, such as practiced by CBS, is symptomatic of social and moral decadance, if not degeneracy. Not only sad but very dangerous.
    , @tbraton
    "But now that the full transcript has been made available on the Kremlin website,"

    I was going to post a link to the full transcript (which was brought to my attention by Minnesota Mary on another thread), but I see you beat me to the punch. What I find most astounding is the language excerpted above which points out that the full transcript is available on the Kremlin website. How far we've come. As Minnesota Mary asked on the other thread, "who's the Evil Empire now?"
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Realist
    "The incompetent, sniveling filth who prostrate themselves at the feet of a psychopath foreign PM, have somehow become our “leaders”.
    What a sick joke."

    Are you talking about the sniveling filth who prostrate themselves to the psychopath Netanyahu?

    Yes.

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    • Agree: Realist
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Thomas O. Meehan
    Another Jerseyism of the law enforcement variety was…."He couldn't detect a fart in a paper bag!"

    Your view of Charley Rose is spot on. He's a silly name dropping ninny, and has been for tine out of mind.

    Who would have thought that we would live to admire a Russian despot over our own national leadership? Putin may be many things but he is not remotely like our own posturing empty suit leaders.

    Perfectly well said!

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  • @Quartermaster
    Ukraine as destabilized by its own corruption. Putin is very good on his feet. The biz about who was paid what by whom is a brilliant come back, even if a brazen lie. The FSB hired killers to kill 100 people at the Maidan Square. Such things, of course, never get brought up by the perp. Putin is slick and will eat the mewling kittens of the leftard press in the US alive.

    Putin is a liar, and he's good at it. He learned from the best and it shows.

    “The biz about who was paid what by whom is a brilliant come back, even if a brazen lie”.

    Right. And ducks fly backwards, too.

    I’m afraid the only lying that was done regarding the Kiev coup was done by Washington and the major news media which, lest we forget, is owned by basically six or seven people.

    The internet is your friend.

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    • Agree: Orville H. Larson
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Another great Jerseyism, semi-expurgated: “Your head’s so far up your a**, you s**t your f**king brains out!”

    And another, as a belligerent response to the question “Whaddya want me to do?”: “I want you to gimme five dollars to kiss my a**!”

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  • @annamaria
    Actually, Putin does not fit a definition of despot. But the impossibly self-demeaning irrationality of Charley (and many others like him) and the prominence of ignoramuses like Kevin suggest a presence of some special kind of despotism in the US.

    Putin’s critics in the Russian press and politics keep turning up dead. Ask their families if Putin is a despot or not. Personally, I don’t dwell on Putin’s methods. That’s for Russians to consider.

    Putin speaks with both clarity and authority in terms of his objectives. The leaders of my country (USA), speak and act in a confused and dysfunctional manner. I suspect that the gibberish our political elite speak and the irrational and self contradictory nature of their goals are an inevitable consequence of our mass democracy. The masses of asses cannot cope with dispassionate rule.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {"Putin’s critics in the Russian press and politics keep turning up dead. Ask their families if Putin is a despot or not."}

    Yes, of course: Putin's critics turn up dead, so he must have ordered their killings.
    Of course it is not possible at all that enemies of Russia and Putin arranged for those killings, just so they can blame Putin.
    Those anti-Russian psychopaths were not above killing 100s of Syrians by gas attack so that they could blame President Assad and manufacture a crossed "red line", so US could start carpet bombing.
    You think those people would have problem murdering a few dozen individuals to achieve their geopolitical goals ?

    Putin's critics are dime a dozen.
    Putin's approval rating consistently hovers above mid 60s and has hit close to 90.
    Why would Putin risk anything by killing insignificant nobodies ?

    Russian people couldn't care less what those alleged critics bloviate about.
    Putin's approval ratings, done by respected and independent outfits, prove it.
    , @annamaria
    "Putin’s critics in the Russian press and politics keep turning up dead. Ask their families if Putin is a despot or not."
    Could you substantiate your statement? It is hard to be an admirer of the KGB graduate, but the strong connection with secret services is not Russia-specific. Bush the Elder comes to mind. The murder of the flamboyant Nemtsov in the context of the perfectly recognizable backdrop, Moscow Kremlin, was rather suspicious but not with regard to Putin. Compare the noise that MSM has produced about the murder of the unimportant critic of Kremlin regime with the mute reaction of the same MSM towards a series of "suicides" and open killings of journalists and critics of Kiev regime. And going back to Bush family, is not it strange that the handsome Bush the Lesser was not accused of being a youthful philanderer, ever? What has happened to all his belles? And what is the true story of Michael Hastings death?
    "I suspect that the gibberish our political elite speak and the irrational and self contradictory nature of their goals are an inevitable consequence of our mass democracy." If only. In case you have missed the Princeton study, the USA is a plutocracy, hence the gibberish and self-contradictory noise from the "people's representatives" and presstitute.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @fredyetagain aka superhonky
    Yet another reason to support Trump below:

    http://news.antiwar.com/2015/10/04/trump-middle-east-would-be-more-stable-with-saddam-and-gadhafi/

    Do you ever get the feeling that you are being manipulated by the Trump-monkey?

    You should because you are.

    Read More
    • Replies: @tbraton
    "Do you ever get the feeling that you are being manipulated by the Trump-monkey?
    You should because you are."

    That's why we should disdain Trump and vote for the other Republican candidate who is saying the same things as Trump, right? Please remind me which candidate that is because his name is eluding me for the moment.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Paragraphs eight and nine, containing samples of Kevin McCarthy’s speech, cannot possibly be true, can it? I mean is out-Sarah’s Palin in it’s carefree abandon and disposal of even the most charitably interpreted rules of the Anglo-Saxon tongue!

    Why, oh why can we not get better leaders? Is it really that much to ask? (same for press corps)

    P.S. Just wondering: ‘beth path forward to safety and security’ is that a deliberate attempt to phoeneticise the first word for the best comfort of a certain victim class?

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  • @SolontoCroesus
    Representative Loretta Sanchez (D-CA) talked about U.S. military strategy against ISIS,* Russian airstrikes in Syria, and the bombing of a Doctors Without Borders Hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan.

    * The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), or DAISH/DAESH in Arabic is a militant group that has called itself the Islamic State.

    http://www.c-span.org/video/?328417-4/washington-journal-representative-loretta-sanchez-dca

    Sanchez defined the four conditions under which U S or any law-abiding UN member may wage war:

    1. if attacked
    2. if under imminent threat of attack
    3. upon invitation of the state
    4. upon UN Resolution

    Sanchez conceded that none of these conditions apply wrt US actions involving Syria.

    If one US Congressperson is capable of making that rules-based assessment, is it reasonable to assume that ALL US Congresspersons should be, and are even required to make that assessment before any other action is contemplated?

    AND

    If those four rules-based conditions apply to the US - Syria situation, do the same rules apply to US Congressional actions or considerations wrt to Iran, such that statements like "all options are on the table", meaning Iran would be subject to military attack, for failure to abide by some congressionally- or Netanyahu-ly contrived line in the atmosphere, is not legitimate?

    AND

    What are the enforcement mechanisms behind the Four Conditions for Waging War rule?

    AND

    In a participatory form of government such as the democratically construed USA, are citizens as well as their representatives equally liable for violations of those civilizational rules of conduct?

    oh coome on. we are the usa, we don’t need rules/laws, we are above them :) we are exceptional.

    We don’t like your small country + leader? prepare for coups or outright invasions.

    A big country like russia or china? we will still fuck with you but on a more subtle level.

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    • Agree: Orville H. Larson
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  • OK, Giraldi. Get this through your head.

    You do not, I repeat, DO NOT compare Kevin McCarthy to Yogi Berra.

    McCarthy is not fit to be mentioned in the same paragraph as Berra.

    Are we clear?

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  • @annamaria
    Why the obsession with some foreign "silliness" and with the alleged lying when the US run the best show of silly fools? The excerpts from ClubOrlov blog:

    "The first bit of extreme silliness surfaced when Gen. Lloyd J. Austin III, the head of the United States Central Command, told a Senate panel that only a very small number of Syrian fighters trained by the United States remained in the fight—perhaps as few as five. The tab for training and equipping them was $500 million. That's $100 million per fighter, but that's OK, because it's all good as long as the military contractors are getting paid. Things got even sillier when it later turned out that even these few fighters got car-jacked by ISIS/al Qaeda in Syria (whatever they are currently calling themselves) and got their vehicles and weapons taken away from them.

    ... Russia announced the start of its bombing campaign against all manner of terrorists in Syria... What's notable about this bombing campaign is that it is entirely legal. The legitimate, elected government of Syria asked Russia for help; the campaign was approved by the Russian legislature. On the other hand, the bombing campaign that the US has been conducting in Syria is entirely illegal. There are exactly two ways to legally bomb the territory of another country: 1. an invitation from that country's government and 2. a UN Security Council resolution. The US has not obtained either of them.

    ...The Americans have been bombing ISIS for a year now; meanwhile, ISIS has gotten stronger and occupied more territory. But they haven't gotten around to overthrowing Assad; instead, the ISIS boys have been busy prancing around the desert in black head rags and white basketball shoes taking selfies, blowing up archaeological sites, enslaving women and beheading anyone they don't like. But now it appears that the Russians have achieved in five days of bombing what the Americans couldn't in a year and the ISIS boys are running away to Jordan; others want to go to Germany and ask for asylum. This has made the Americans upset, because, you see, the Russians were bombing “their” terrorists—the ones the Americans recruited, armed and trained... and then bombed? I know, silly—but true."

    Sigh... The US are in a service of the war profiteers and "chosen" people. There is no moral ground anymore, but a cesspool of moneyed powerful interests and a fog of brazen propaganda
    http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-worlds-silliest-empire.html

    Well said. When they started naming aircraft carriers after presidents, especially (living) George H. W. Bush, decadence was clear.

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    • Agree: Vendetta
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “We live on the greatest nation that’s ever been on the face of the Earth.”

    Hubris tempts Nemesis. Perhaps institutional stupidity is divine retribution.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Read More
    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
    Do you ever get the feeling that you are being manipulated by the Trump-monkey?

    You should because you are.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Read More
    • Replies: @tbraton
    I thought that ISIS had traded in their Toyota pickups for Humvees. I understand they got an unbelievable deal, which they found impossible to resist.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous

    Turgidson: Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed, but I do say no more than 10 to 20 million killed, tops! Uh, depending on the breaks.
     
    Now, if in these perilous times with stupid leaders if we only had to deal with bombers equipped with mere fission bombs. This weekend I'll be renting Dr. Strangelove and On the Beach. And maybe Duck and Cover for some pointers in case any of the current candidates-- other than Trump and Paul-- win the Presidential election.

    Dr. Strangelove.

    Life imitating absurdity.

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  • @Avery
    When a former DIA officer fairly and accurately assesses a former KGB officer as being a genuine statesman, we know this once great country has gone to s___.

    The incompetent, sniveling filth who prostrate themselves at the feet of a psychopath foreign PM, have somehow become our "leaders".
    What a sick joke.

    Maybe the pendulum has to swing farther still, before the hibernating American people are jarred out of their slumber and do something drastic.
    This is or was unique country worth saving for future generations.
    It would be a tragic loss if the foreign Leo Straussian Neocon virus is allowed to kill her.

    [The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
    Thomas Jefferson]

    “The incompetent, sniveling filth who prostrate themselves at the feet of a psychopath foreign PM, have somehow become our “leaders”.
    What a sick joke.”

    Are you talking about the sniveling filth who prostrate themselves to the psychopath Netanyahu?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    Yes.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Actually, Putin did respond by mentioning Libya. But the good folks at CBS decided that this was impossible for sensative American ears to hear, so they edited all those comments out. Somewhere I saw a good piece comparing the un-edited transcript of the interview from the Kremlin with what actually made it on to American TV. Libya was carefully edited out of the discussion. For that matter, we learned this week that 60 minutes accepts planted questions from the US government on such occaisions. So, everyone should aware that if you watch this stuff, the questions are arranged in advance by the USG and the responses are carefully edited. And the edits weren’t just for time, but instead they chopped and parsed the paragraphs of what Putin said, picking sentence by sentence and phrase by phrase what Americans get to hear.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Full text is on Kremlin website. Link below.

    "The day before his much-anticipated address to the UN General Assembly on Monday, CBS broadcast Charlie Rose's interview with Russian President Vladimir Putin for its season premiere of 60 Minutes. Understandably, the interview was cut and edited to fit in the 20-minute slot available in the program. But now that the full transcript has been made available on the Kremlin website, it's fascinating to see just what was cut. We're including the full transcript below, with comments identifying which parts were not included in the final broadcast, or as special online clips.

    "From single sentences to entire exchanges, some of the exclusions are noteworthy. For example, practically the whole of Putin's commentary on the Minsk agreements was not aired. Nor were Putin's pointed comments on Libya and Syria, his observation that the U.S.'s actions in those countries was a blatant violation of international law, and his suggestion that "somebody wants to use either certain units of ISIS or ISIS in general in order to overthrow al-Assad and only then think about how to get rid of ISIS." Other exchanges, such as Putin's views on sanctions and gay rights, were broadcast online, but not in the final program."




    http://www.sott.net/article/302911-Full-unedited-text-of-Vladimir-Putins-interview-with-Charlie-Rose-What-CBS-left-out
    , @KA
    This is called freedom of expression of American variety . Censoring is the way to honor the American respect for decency . Editing and redacting the analysis of a leaders are all fair game even when the leader is offering the most relevant background behind the issue on hand .
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Representative Loretta Sanchez (D-CA) talked about U.S. military strategy against ISIS,* Russian airstrikes in Syria, and the bombing of a Doctors Without Borders Hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan.

    * The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), or DAISH/DAESH in Arabic is a militant group that has called itself the Islamic State.

    http://www.c-span.org/video/?328417-4/washington-journal-representative-loretta-sanchez-dca

    Sanchez defined the four conditions under which U S or any law-abiding UN member may wage war:

    1. if attacked
    2. if under imminent threat of attack
    3. upon invitation of the state
    4. upon UN Resolution

    Sanchez conceded that none of these conditions apply wrt US actions involving Syria.

    If one US Congressperson is capable of making that rules-based assessment, is it reasonable to assume that ALL US Congresspersons should be, and are even required to make that assessment before any other action is contemplated?

    AND

    If those four rules-based conditions apply to the US – Syria situation, do the same rules apply to US Congressional actions or considerations wrt to Iran, such that statements like “all options are on the table”, meaning Iran would be subject to military attack, for failure to abide by some congressionally- or Netanyahu-ly contrived line in the atmosphere, is not legitimate?

    AND

    What are the enforcement mechanisms behind the Four Conditions for Waging War rule?

    AND

    In a participatory form of government such as the democratically construed USA, are citizens as well as their representatives equally liable for violations of those civilizational rules of conduct?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    oh coome on. we are the usa, we don't need rules/laws, we are above them :) we are exceptional.

    We don't like your small country + leader? prepare for coups or outright invasions.

    A big country like russia or china? we will still fuck with you but on a more subtle level.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Quartermaster
    Ukraine as destabilized by its own corruption. Putin is very good on his feet. The biz about who was paid what by whom is a brilliant come back, even if a brazen lie. The FSB hired killers to kill 100 people at the Maidan Square. Such things, of course, never get brought up by the perp. Putin is slick and will eat the mewling kittens of the leftard press in the US alive.

    Putin is a liar, and he's good at it. He learned from the best and it shows.

    Why the obsession with some foreign “silliness” and with the alleged lying when the US run the best show of silly fools? The excerpts from ClubOrlov blog:

    “The first bit of extreme silliness surfaced when Gen. Lloyd J. Austin III, the head of the United States Central Command, told a Senate panel that only a very small number of Syrian fighters trained by the United States remained in the fight—perhaps as few as five. The tab for training and equipping them was $500 million. That’s $100 million per fighter, but that’s OK, because it’s all good as long as the military contractors are getting paid. Things got even sillier when it later turned out that even these few fighters got car-jacked by ISIS/al Qaeda in Syria (whatever they are currently calling themselves) and got their vehicles and weapons taken away from them.

    … Russia announced the start of its bombing campaign against all manner of terrorists in Syria… What’s notable about this bombing campaign is that it is entirely legal. The legitimate, elected government of Syria asked Russia for help; the campaign was approved by the Russian legislature. On the other hand, the bombing campaign that the US has been conducting in Syria is entirely illegal. There are exactly two ways to legally bomb the territory of another country: 1. an invitation from that country’s government and 2. a UN Security Council resolution. The US has not obtained either of them.

    …The Americans have been bombing ISIS for a year now; meanwhile, ISIS has gotten stronger and occupied more territory. But they haven’t gotten around to overthrowing Assad; instead, the ISIS boys have been busy prancing around the desert in black head rags and white basketball shoes taking selfies, blowing up archaeological sites, enslaving women and beheading anyone they don’t like. But now it appears that the Russians have achieved in five days of bombing what the Americans couldn’t in a year and the ISIS boys are running away to Jordan; others want to go to Germany and ask for asylum. This has made the Americans upset, because, you see, the Russians were bombing “their” terrorists—the ones the Americans recruited, armed and trained… and then bombed? I know, silly—but true.”

    Sigh… The US are in a service of the war profiteers and “chosen” people. There is no moral ground anymore, but a cesspool of moneyed powerful interests and a fog of brazen propaganda

    http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-worlds-silliest-empire.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marais
    Well said. When they started naming aircraft carriers after presidents, especially (living) George H. W. Bush, decadence was clear.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Ukraine as destabilized by its own corruption. Putin is very good on his feet. The biz about who was paid what by whom is a brilliant come back, even if a brazen lie. The FSB hired killers to kill 100 people at the Maidan Square. Such things, of course, never get brought up by the perp. Putin is slick and will eat the mewling kittens of the leftard press in the US alive.

    Putin is a liar, and he’s good at it. He learned from the best and it shows.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Why the obsession with some foreign "silliness" and with the alleged lying when the US run the best show of silly fools? The excerpts from ClubOrlov blog:

    "The first bit of extreme silliness surfaced when Gen. Lloyd J. Austin III, the head of the United States Central Command, told a Senate panel that only a very small number of Syrian fighters trained by the United States remained in the fight—perhaps as few as five. The tab for training and equipping them was $500 million. That's $100 million per fighter, but that's OK, because it's all good as long as the military contractors are getting paid. Things got even sillier when it later turned out that even these few fighters got car-jacked by ISIS/al Qaeda in Syria (whatever they are currently calling themselves) and got their vehicles and weapons taken away from them.

    ... Russia announced the start of its bombing campaign against all manner of terrorists in Syria... What's notable about this bombing campaign is that it is entirely legal. The legitimate, elected government of Syria asked Russia for help; the campaign was approved by the Russian legislature. On the other hand, the bombing campaign that the US has been conducting in Syria is entirely illegal. There are exactly two ways to legally bomb the territory of another country: 1. an invitation from that country's government and 2. a UN Security Council resolution. The US has not obtained either of them.

    ...The Americans have been bombing ISIS for a year now; meanwhile, ISIS has gotten stronger and occupied more territory. But they haven't gotten around to overthrowing Assad; instead, the ISIS boys have been busy prancing around the desert in black head rags and white basketball shoes taking selfies, blowing up archaeological sites, enslaving women and beheading anyone they don't like. But now it appears that the Russians have achieved in five days of bombing what the Americans couldn't in a year and the ISIS boys are running away to Jordan; others want to go to Germany and ask for asylum. This has made the Americans upset, because, you see, the Russians were bombing “their” terrorists—the ones the Americans recruited, armed and trained... and then bombed? I know, silly—but true."

    Sigh... The US are in a service of the war profiteers and "chosen" people. There is no moral ground anymore, but a cesspool of moneyed powerful interests and a fog of brazen propaganda
    http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-worlds-silliest-empire.html

    , @schmenz
    "The biz about who was paid what by whom is a brilliant come back, even if a brazen lie".

    Right. And ducks fly backwards, too.

    I'm afraid the only lying that was done regarding the Kiev coup was done by Washington and the major news media which, lest we forget, is owned by basically six or seven people.

    The internet is your friend.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @annamaria
    Actually, Putin does not fit a definition of despot. But the impossibly self-demeaning irrationality of Charley (and many others like him) and the prominence of ignoramuses like Kevin suggest a presence of some special kind of despotism in the US.

    Hey! Annamarina’s back. We haven’t heard from you in a little while. I was worried that something had happened. Good to hear from you again.

    Read More
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