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    That orgy of elite devotion to Israel that is the AIPAC policy conference has featured one prominent Democrat after another seeking to outflank the Trump administration in their expressions of love for Israel. Senate Minority leader Chuck Schumer took the prize by slinging mud at Palestinians and Arabs as the reason there is no end...
  • Till the corruption/campaign financing laws are fixed and enforced with jail time, don’t expect any change.
    Neither dems nor repubs give a hoot about average Americans, only the billionaire donors.
    The system is broke and must be fixed.
    Citizens united made the problem much worse and its pretty clear to see.
    The International corporations, banks, AIPAC, foreign lobbies, have all the money to bribe the pols, fund the campaigns, until we fix this, we’re just whizzing in the wind….
    Shutting down the CIA, kicking out all the Mossad agents, ending the Fed scam, would be a good change too.
    JFK tried to do these things and they killed him.
    AIPAC is traitors pep rally.

    The Zionist Project 2. Israel 9/11, All Of The Pieces

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  • Weiss is obsessed with Jews and ‘progressives’ and, after that, Palestinians and others.

    But why are ordinary, white (but non-Jewish and ‘non-progressive’) gentiles so unimportant to Weiss? They never register on his radar. Are we just ‘deplorables’–or worse?

    Does Weiss believe that run-of-the-mill whites are indifferent to Zionist warmongering and pro-Zionist injustice committed in America’s name? Well, we’re not.

    Does stating this fact make me an ‘anti-Semite’?

    Must I profess a heartfelt appreciation of Jews in order to prove that I am morally fit and ‘qualified’ to speak ‘objectively’ about Jews as well as America’s intractable (and pro-Zionist) conflicts in the Middle East?

    What if I refuse?

    Does this act of ‘disloyalty’ disqualify me from participating? Does it prove that I am ‘prejudiced’?

    If so, then why does in-your-face, militant, pro-Zio-Jewish bias invariably get a pass?

    Why the one-way street?

    I see double-standards at work. Deep ones.

    Does Weiss see this? He must.

    Yet for all his hand-wringing over Israel’s murderous conduct, Weiss cannot bring himself to utter the term ‘Jewish supremacism’.

    Yet it’s a shoe that fits Israel and the Jewish establishment.

    Does saying this make me a ‘bigot’?

    Ha! Inevitably so.

    This absurd dishonor shows how dishonest the American ‘discussion’ has become. In fact, there is no genuine national discussion on any number of ‘sensitive’ subjects, with Israel being the most protected.

    Why the speech restrictions?

    Jewish censorship.

    America’s political culture has drifted downward. And it’s no accident. Uttering plain truth is now beyond the pale.

    Meanwhile, wonderful, smart, oppressed, mega-powerful Jews remain dedicated to addressing ‘Jewish issues’ (including fighting ‘anti-Semitism’), protecting the Jewish people, securing Israel (and fighting ‘terrorism’), as well as celebrating Jewish greatness. Whoopee!

    Whites on the other hand must resist such impulses. Why? White cohesion and white pride endangers Jews!

    So, like the rest of his co-ethnics, Weiss has no problem at all with tossing around the worn-out meme ‘anti-Semitism’.

    Who does he think he’s fooling?

    Jewish supremacism is real, Mr. Weiss. White supremacism, on the other hand, is dead. But Jewish supremacism is on a tear, even when Israel wears the mask of victim. The latest AIPAC conference demonstrates this fact.

    little insecure Israel is now ‘ruling the nations’ and smiting its foes. Sadly, America is its hapless tool. This situation is beyond pathetic. It is not only shocking but hugely dangerous. Israel is a fanatical state rife with religious fundamentalism and nuclear bombs.

    And once Assad’s Syria is crushed, it’s next target is Iran.

    Like it or not, American power will be harnessed to assure an Israeli victory.

    Despite their extraordinary talents, the political energy generated by Jewish supremacism has caused immense misery around the globe. And it’s ramping up. Are Israelis feeling guilty over this. Very few. But Weiss does deserve some credit for sounding his assorted alarms.

    Many whites, meanwhile, are in a state of economic, political and demographic decline. So why is there so much chatter about ‘white supremacism’?

    The Zions dominate our news and entertainment industry.

    Ironically, whites have created the most diverse, tolerant and integrated civilization in human history. At the same time, Israel is expelling non-Jews. There’s no ‘affirmative action’ for gentiles in the Jewish state.

    So let’s get real. ‘Anti-Semitism’ is a term now used to quash organized resistance to Zionist exclusiveness, Zionist militarism, Jewish hypocrisy, and Zionist hegemony. And the taboo is working. It’s time we ended it. Let’s talk openly.

    To what extent is global Jewry responsible for Zio-America’s destruction of Iraq, Libya and Syria?

    Has not the spirit of Jewish supremacism contaminated Washington–and beyond?

    It’s time to open up the discussion about US policies in the Middle East. In all due respect to Mr. Weiss, we have far too many Jewish experts on this particular beat. It’s had a very distorting impact.

    This unimportant American–and countless others–are no longer interested in hearing only what Jews (and their neocon subordinates) have to say about how Zio-America should impose itself in the Middle East. Their kosher expertise has produced a series of miserable failures. Can’t we bring in a fresh team?

    Non-Jewish Americans have heard it all. We basically know what Israeli-Americans have to say on the subject, despite their noisy, in-house disagreements. For them, it’s still all about Israel. The rest is theater. It’s time for America to reverse course.

    Here’s the new paradigm:

    The major ‘threat’ to America’s security and well-being is not Russia or Iran or ISIS or North Korea. The real and ongoing threat is militant Israel’s corrupting influence in Washington.

    Zionists have successfully steered Washington into numerous and unnecessary wars over the past century. And they’re still at it. Millions have died. Millions more have been dislocated. Trillions of dollars have been wasted.

    Meanwhile, Israel–with its nuclear arsenal and its unacknowledged leverage over Washington–continues to expand its borders, foment war (using American power and prestige) while ethnically cleansing its non-Jewish inhabitants. This is an ally?

    Israeli aggression–with its international cast of spies, trolls, celebrities, double-agents, provocateurs, financiers, arms dealers, public intellectuals, jurists, militarists and media baron–constitutes the most pressing security crisis of our day; not North Korea, Iran, Russiagate or ISIS. Those are mere side shows.

    The profound dual loyalties embraced by countless Israeli-Americans is real. Their presence in Washington (and elsewhere) frequently undermines the sovereignty of host nations, including ours.

    Crypto-Israelis intend to use American power to terrorize the Jewish state’s foes as they augment Israeli power. It’s how they operate. Zio-Washington’s destruction of Iraq, Palestine, Libya and Syria proves this.

    Here’s another problem: ‘Diaspora’ Jews suffer from a colossal conflict-of-interest in matters concerning US policies in the Middle East. Their tribal loyalties often supersedes their national loyalties. This may benefit the local ‘Jewish community’ but it is a huge liability for every host country. Israel’s ‘Law of Return’ formalizes this predicament since all Jews in the world qualify automatically as Israeli citizens.

    This privilege explains why Israel’s secret service (Mossad) is the most effective intelligence agency in the world. Diaspora Jews commonly work as double agents.

    The case can be made that Israeli-Americans should recuse themselves from holding top positions in government sectors where US / MidEast policies are formulated. If that’s not a viable solution, then the issue of Zio-Jewish bias in public life must be confronted openly and freely. Taboos must fall.

    Unfortunately, we’re presently forbidden from talking about this issue. Sensitive subjects concerning Israel are reserved for the Chosen People. This restriction is another product of Jewish power.

    Fact: the pro-Israel establishment been doing a terrible job as stewards of America’s Mideast policies. This must end. Pro-Zionist wars involving Syria, Russia, Lebanon and Iran are on the horizon.

    Americans are tired of watching crypto-Israelis buy up Washington. They’ve had it with government-engineered murder sprees, despite what Zionist advocates say on TV.

    Most Americans understand this moral principle: Preemptive serial warfare is a criminal enterprise. Criminal.

    Washington’s foremost political crisis is not ‘Russiagate’. It’s the hardened and ongoing matter of embedded and militant Zionist operatives influencing government policy from all angles. As a consequence, needless wars that do not benefit America have been waged. Whole nations have been destroyed.

    These wars (Iraq and Syria in particular) were based on enormous, sophisticated lies. There are Zionist fingerprints all over these false narratives.

    The enemy of America is militant Zionism and its deplorable Fifth Column inside Washington.

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  • The gear up to go heavy on Iran has been going on for a very long time. The goal destabilize Iran. with no regional power base to challenge Is-real (Saudi arabia is on board too). Initial gas attacks looked very close to pulling the US into the hot seat in Syria. Defying all logic defys all logic. Asad was winning his civil war, no need for some desparate action. They try the gas story a second time – ruse not gaining traction. I wonder if they want the US in the middle of Syria so that “some” missle hits a US battalion. Blame the “some” missle on Iran – mission accomplished – Sic the the US on Iran; good dog.

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  • “Iran [is] increasingly and aggressively challenging Israel”

    Christ, these people must honestly think that other people don’t have maps.

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  • While the presidential campaign was still in progress it was possible to think that there might be some positive change in America’s broken foreign policy. Hillary Clinton was clearly the candidate of Washington Establishment hawkishness, while Donald Trump was declaring his disinclination for democracy and nation building overseas as well as promoting détente with Russia....
  • @Lot
    It is funny how Unz.com's large stable of Israel/Jew haters just can't decide if Trump is on their side or not. (I think Giraldi is right, he's not, and Saker is wrong.)

    What Giraldi does not understand is that patriotic white people do not find it acceptable that the Holy Land be occupied by Muslim barbarians. It really is just that simple. It was the case 1000 years ago, and is still the case now.

    Israel is America's Crusader Kingdom, and Bibi is white America's loyal viceroy.

    on land stolen from Palestinians
     
    It is Israel's by right of conquest.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_conquest

    And if you don't believe in that right, I first urge to you deed your house over to the nearest Indian tribe, and second explain how the various Arabs who call themselves "Palestinians" got that land in the first place.

    Right of conquest my rear end. If it was not for US blood the kikes would have been a bad memory long ago, courtesy of the Third Reich.

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  • @geokat62

    Sam has thoroughly trounced your theme that the founding of our nation state was not indebted to and imbued with many of the principles and ideas found in Judaism.
     
    Care to enumerate the many principles and ideas found in Judaism for us, iffen?

    I did a quick google search on this concept and here's what I found:


    If one refines the question to ask whether the Founding Fathers were motivated to act as they did based on their Christian faith, the answer becomes a little murkier, but the response is still "no." -
    Steven K. Green teaches law and history at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon. He is the author of the recent book, "Inventing a Christian America: The Myth of the Religious Founding."

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/living/america-christian-nation/
     

    Read’em and weep, indeed.

    I don’t believe the founders wanted to found a country based on Christian principles either.

    But why cute a book written by a college professor? Except for STEM subjects every word written or spoken by the college profs since about 1960 has been an anti American, anti White Gramenscian, Alinsky Marxist lie.

    Only the incredibly naive believe anything a non STEM college prof says or writes.

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  • @geokat62

    Many of the Founding Fathers were trained Hebrew scholars, went to the elite schools of this country – which, to this day, preserve their mottos in Biblical Hebrew – and gave their commencement speeches in Hebrew.

    It was once contemplated that the Constitution be written in Hebrew.
     

    I've never seen anyone present this hypothesis before, Sam. Care to provide sources?

    I did a quick search using keywords "founding fathers were trained Hebrew scholars" and nothing very relevant came back except for this info:

    The Classical Education of the Founding Fathers

    https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/classical-education-founding-fathers/

    Here's a very lengthy excerpt:


    Thomas Jefferson received early training in Latin, Greek, and French from Reverend William Douglas, a Scottish clergyman. At the age of fourteen, Jefferson’s father died, and, at the express wish of his father, he continued his education with the Reverend James Maury, who ran a classical academy. After leaving Douglas’ academy, Jefferson attended the College of William and Mary, where his classical education continued along with his study of law.

    When Alexander Hamilton entered King’s College (now Columbia University) in 1773, he was expected to have a mastery of Greek and Latin grammar, be able to read three orations from Cicero and Virgil’s Aeneid in the original Latin, and be able to translate the first ten chapters of the Gospel of John from Greek into Latin.

    When James Madison applied at the College of New Jersey (now Princeton), he was expected to be able to “write Latin prose, translate Virgil, Cicero, and the Greek gospels and [to have] a commensurate knowledge of Latin and Greek grammar.” Even before he entered, however, he had already read Vergil, Horace, Justinian, Nepos, Caesar, Tacitus, Lucretius, Eutropius, Phaedrus, Herodotus, Thucydides, and Plato.

    Other key figures in the American founding received similar educations, including John Taylor of Caroline, John Tyler, and George Rogers Clark, all of whom studied classics under the Scottish preacher Donald Robertson.

    It is interesting to note that the study of Latin and Greek, which is what the term “classical education” originally implied, was not something they learned in college, but something they were expected to know before they got there.

    These men not only had to read classical authors in school, they read them in adult life for pleasure and profit. Hamilton apparently had a penchant for copying Plutarch (the Roman) and Demosthenes (the Greek). John Adams would copy long passages of Sallust, the Roman historian. If you look around on the Internet a little, you can find a manuscript of twelve lines for sale, in the original language, from the Greek historian Herodotus, in Adam’s hand. It will cost you a mere $6,300.

    The founders knew these writers and quoted them prolifically. Their letters, in particular, display a wide familiarity with classical authors. The correspondence between educated men of the time was commonly sprinkled with classical quotations, usually in the original Latin or Greek. It was not only prevalent, but apparently sometimes annoying to the recipient. Jefferson used so many Greek quotes in his letters to Adams (who liked Latin better than Greek) that, on one occasion, Adams complained to him about it.
     

    As you can see, a lot of references to Latin and Greek, but nothing to Hebrew.

    To be fair, there is a solitary reference to Hebrew:


    Students were also expected in these early years, according to the Harvard College Laws, to be able to translate the Old and New Testaments from the original Greek and Hebrew into Latin.
     
    Look forward to seeing your sources.

    None of the founders went to Harvard. It was founded as a Protestant seminary for men who wished to become clergy. There was no reason for anyone else to attend Harvard. Some grads who couldn’t get preacher jobs became teachers.

    As far as I know the only founder who attended college was Hamilton, Kings college later Columbia Franklin did help found University of Pennsylvania.

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  • @Sam Shama
    First, were you aware of any of this prior to my post? Art e.g. had no idea that the 1st design for the official seal was a rendering of the Exodus which he called a lie, and therefore the FFs, liars.

    Trained Hebrew scholars - not all of them certainly, but a significant number were, up to the level where they could translate long Biblical passages from Latin to Hebrew. Harvard, Yale, College of New Jersey (later Princeton- educated James Madison), King's College (later Columbia), College of William and Mary (educated Jefferson), Dartmouth, Rutgers were the alma maters of a significant number of not only the FFs but also the larger group of highly influential politicians. Most of them had a working knowledge of Hebrew.

    But we are merely scratching the surface, viewing the most visible things at this point. Should one be really interested in this pursuing this subject, one would require long hours of labour at the Library of Congress and the Kabbala Centre; the Declaration, The whole meaning of Liberty (וַיִּקְרָא or Leviticus 25:10) , the many original laws and indeed the methodology of coming up with appropriate and consistent laws will open up an understanding which perhaps only a few know and understand explicitly. Concepts that the FFs understood weren't for mass consumption, rather for the implicit benefit of the masses.

    I am afraid that is all I am able to say for the moment.

    The Declaration of Independence and the constitution are based on the standard rules of the Masonic lodges.

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  • @Gabriel M

    A citation about this legal restriction would be much appreciated.
     
    I can give you a personal citation.

    I visited the temple mount with a friend on the morning of his wedding. First we were searched, reasonably enough, for weapons. Then we had a second search for prayer articles. For instance, they checked my wallet to see that I didn't have a copy of Psalms or grace after meals. Also, as normal, we weren't allowed to take water with us since we would make a blessing on it. While on the temple mount we were surrounded by armed (Israeli) guards with their Uzis pointed inwards at us. I briefly kissed a rock with my hands and was a reprimanded by a soldier. All the time leering Arabs filmed us on behalf on one of the thousands of NGOs that infest this country whilst Arab women shouted abuse (my Arabic is remedial, but I know well enough what Yahud means). Whilst leaving I bowed slightly and was arrested. They let me go pretty quickly though I had to return and sign a statement saying I would never attempt to pray at the Temple Mount again.

    Anyway, if you were generally curious about the ban on Jewish prayer on our temple that you stole, you could just use google. Instead of telling everyone how reasonable Muslims are and how their misbehavior is always someone else's fault, why don't you devote your energies to actually encouraging your fellow Muslims to actually acting reasonably. If you did that the following list would be a hell of a lot shorter.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

    If you don’t mind me asking, why did you go to the Temple Mount? I gather you are an Israeli Jew.

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  • @Carroll Price
    Due to Zionist 5th columnist occupying key positions at virtually every level within the US government, Israel has emerged the real winner of every US presidential election since Woodrow Wilson became president, followed by implementation of the Federal Reserve Act, World War One - the rest is history.

    Wilson got us into WW1 because of blackmail by multimillionaire Samuel Untermeyer. Wilson was a lecher and had a long term affair with the wife of a fellow Princeton prof.
    By the time he was president their son was an adult who needed funds to set himself up in business.

    Untermeyer met with Wilson and informed Wilson that either Wilson declared war on Germany or the sordid story of the long term adulterous affair would be revealed.

    After Wilson declared war Untermeyer rewarded him by paying off the Mother and son.

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  • @geokat62
    [reminded me of another recent discussion where a revisionist twist on Hellenism, perhaps extending to Stoicism, was presented in the blinding light of new discovery which caused me to close my eyes in pain]

    You must be bored, Sam. I already addressed your allegation about a revisionist twist on Hellenism and new discoveries. You keep trying to paint the ancient Greeks as precursors to the Frankfurt School. Good luck with that.

    I'll just keep reminding you of who was permitted to participate in their Olympic Games by referencing this response to the Quora question “Was there racism in Ancient Greece?” provided by a modern Greek Aristoteles Oikonomou (ancient historian, philosopher, etc):

    “The Ancient Greeks were not racist in terms of skin color or ethnic differences. They would not discriminate and segregate a man due to his origin, religion or culture, and were more accepting of foreigners. However, a lot of them were ‘nationalists’ (mostly Athenians), in the sense that they valued Hellenic culture as the best one over all the others. Only Greeks were allowed along with other people with very similar cultures (Rome, Macedon) to participate in their games or religious festivals.”
    https://www.quora.com/Was-there-racism-in-ancient-Greece

    Hellenic supremacists!!! You can spot them a mile away – they’re the guys walking around in togas.

    Only Greeks were allowed along with other people with very similar cultures (Rome, Macedon) to participate in their games or religious festivals.

    They wouldn’t let poor Rudolph, join in any reindeer games…

    Peace.

    Just having fun Geo, couldn’t help it.

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  • Zeno of Citium (c. 334 – 262 B.C.) and the Stoics he inspired, Alexander of Macedon, Eratosthenes would’ve disagreed.

    And yes, I am bored; bad character flaw.

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  • @iffen
    The Little Moron claimed

    Are there Big Morons to go along with the Littles?

    I think he’ll be able to point fingers at them.

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  • @RobinG
    Sorry, skipped a thought: I don't think Art can get very far with criticizing your God. A whole lot of people are inclined to believe in a supreme being. (Even those with pantheons of multiple gods have one biggie.) So whether it's the 'real' God is irrelevant. And of course there are those who use this mass tendency for political reasons. That's what made me think of Joe the agnostic.

    A whole lot of people are inclined to believe in a supreme being. So whether it’s the ‘real’ God is irrelevant.

    Thanks Robin for this opportunity to address the “Jew god thing.” What god image, or religion, or philosophy people hold is relevant to their lives and their neighbors lives. I believe that all gods, religions, and philosophies, and the cultures that they produce are NOT equal. Different religious cultures produce different outcomes. Some better than others.

    I respect people who believe in God – I am one of them.

    With that said, god is an idea, god is an image within our psyche. There is no proof one way or the other if there is an actual god of the universe. It is a matter of faith or belief.

    The image of god that the Jews hold is preposterous, it is farcical – idea that their “god of the whole universe” favors them over all of humanity is ridicules. So be it – if they want to think that absurdity – that is their problem.

    The rub is that they want us to believe it too. They want us to go along with their idiot view of the god of the universe. They actually condemn us, if we do not. They want us to allow them to steal Palestine because their god sanctions it. They want us to ignore their destruction of the ME. Their god is not a nice, fair minded guy – is he?

    The image of the Christian god that we hold in our mind is different – Jesus brought use a new image of god, he gave us a new mindset that is hopeful, fair minded, and forgiving. This new mindset has had a positive effect on humanity.

    The Jew image of god is clearly inferior to the Christian image of god.

    For the betterment of all – we Christians must assert our superior views.

    Peace — Art

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  • @Sam Shama
    Hahahaaaa.

    Robin, you should really save your energy; is Art your little pet? Since you insist, I'll oblige:

    1. Jefferson (Adams and Madison) proposed the Exodus for the first design of the U.S. seal

    2. The Little Moron claimed “Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh is a total lie"

    3. You, Robin, claim that they did it for political purposes. [I could not disagree more; but that isn't so important for the argument]. You have no reason, none in the form of a charge brought to that effect by a contemporary of that period, making your accusation entirely the product of a personal speculation.

    (1) and (2) together requires at least a strongly transitive conclusion that Little Moron insinuated the FFs were engaged in propagating a lie.

    To compound his problems he went to say things like: Jew symbols were used insofar as they were connected to Jesus, Jesus made the Jews gain stature, Hebrew words for Light & Truth, Elohim etc, are Rothschild symbols, the Holocaust is a lie - this last one I mention only in that it seems an obligatory rite of passage for - to use GabrielM's useful term - Gaylord stormfags, and I have no wish to wade into that cesspool for any "debates".

    One of these assertions led me to credit him further with the unique discovery of Jesus of Nazareth's contemporaneousness with Moses. I did not go the excessively punitive distance of asking him to expand on the Rothschild symbols; that would be cruel; dog biscuits and lemonade for rations, I considered a just sentence.

    He went on to blabber something about FFs not having the benefit of Darwin, Charles D. apparently an autodidact operating entirely from inner (divine?) inspiration. Except he wasn't. Russell speaking on the subject had said: “The general idea of evolution is very old; it is already to be found in Anaximander [sixth century B.C.]. . . . Descartes [1596-1650], Kant [1724-1804], and Laplace [1749-1827] had advocated a gradual origin for the solar system in place of sudden creation."

    So, defend your co-position as doggedly without substance as you want [reminded me of another recent discussion where a revisionist twist on Hellenism, perhaps extending to Stoicism, was presented in the blinding light of new discovery which caused me to close my eyes in pain]

    The Little Moron claimed

    Are there Big Morons to go along with the Littles?

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I think he'll be able to point fingers at them.
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  • [reminded me of another recent discussion where a revisionist twist on Hellenism, perhaps extending to Stoicism, was presented in the blinding light of new discovery which caused me to close my eyes in pain]

    You must be bored, Sam. I already addressed your allegation about a revisionist twist on Hellenism and new discoveries. You keep trying to paint the ancient Greeks as precursors to the Frankfurt School. Good luck with that.

    I’ll just keep reminding you of who was permitted to participate in their Olympic Games by referencing this response to the Quora question “Was there racism in Ancient Greece?” provided by a modern Greek Aristoteles Oikonomou (ancient historian, philosopher, etc):

    “The Ancient Greeks were not racist in terms of skin color or ethnic differences. They would not discriminate and segregate a man due to his origin, religion or culture, and were more accepting of foreigners. However, a lot of them were ‘nationalists’ (mostly Athenians), in the sense that they valued Hellenic culture as the best one over all the others. Only Greeks were allowed along with other people with very similar cultures (Rome, Macedon) to participate in their games or religious festivals.”

    https://www.quora.com/Was-there-racism-in-ancient-Greece

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hellenic supremacists!!! You can spot them a mile away - they're the guys walking around in togas.

    Only Greeks were allowed along with other people with very similar cultures (Rome, Macedon) to participate in their games or religious festivals.
     
    They wouldn't let poor Rudolph, join in any reindeer games...

    Peace.

    Just having fun Geo, couldn't help it.
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  • @RobinG
    You allege that Art called the Founding Fathers liars, but show us where! He simply said the Red Sea never parted for Moses, which I took as, the FF were believers in that myth - a myth of all 3 Abrahamic religions, btw. But suppose they didn't believe. Then they were saying it for the effect on their constituents who did believe, so just polit-speak. Which is why I take all this FF stuff (praising Jews, quoting Bible) with a grain of salt. They were in the business of influence, like our pols today.

    Speaking of No Exodus, etc., I hope you read our notable agnostic Joe Webb's posts at Petras' "The Coup Against Trump..." Sorry, I can't remember which comment, imo, most excellent, but great insights throughout.

    Who's really lying? John Brennan, tonight on PBS Newshour, lying his eff'n brains out about the 'Russian hacking', but he stopped short at pretending the US hadn't been 'involved' in Syria all along. [Since before the beginning. :( ]

    Hahahaaaa.

    Robin, you should really save your energy; is Art your little pet? Since you insist, I’ll oblige:

    1. Jefferson (Adams and Madison) proposed the Exodus for the first design of the U.S. seal

    2. The Little Moron claimed “Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh is a total lie”

    3. You, Robin, claim that they did it for political purposes. [I could not disagree more; but that isn't so important for the argument]. You have no reason, none in the form of a charge brought to that effect by a contemporary of that period, making your accusation entirely the product of a personal speculation.

    (1) and (2) together requires at least a strongly transitive conclusion that Little Moron insinuated the FFs were engaged in propagating a lie.

    To compound his problems he went to say things like: Jew symbols were used insofar as they were connected to Jesus, Jesus made the Jews gain stature, Hebrew words for Light & Truth, Elohim etc, are Rothschild symbols, the Holocaust is a lie – this last one I mention only in that it seems an obligatory rite of passage for – to use GabrielM’s useful term – Gaylord stormfags, and I have no wish to wade into that cesspool for any “debates”.

    One of these assertions led me to credit him further with the unique discovery of Jesus of Nazareth’s contemporaneousness with Moses. I did not go the excessively punitive distance of asking him to expand on the Rothschild symbols; that would be cruel; dog biscuits and lemonade for rations, I considered a just sentence.

    He went on to blabber something about FFs not having the benefit of Darwin, Charles D. apparently an autodidact operating entirely from inner (divine?) inspiration. Except he wasn’t. Russell speaking on the subject had said: “The general idea of evolution is very old; it is already to be found in Anaximander [sixth century B.C.]. . . . Descartes [1596-1650], Kant [1724-1804], and Laplace [1749-1827] had advocated a gradual origin for the solar system in place of sudden creation.”

    So, defend your co-position as doggedly without substance as you want [reminded me of another recent discussion where a revisionist twist on Hellenism, perhaps extending to Stoicism, was presented in the blinding light of new discovery which caused me to close my eyes in pain]

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    The Little Moron claimed

    Are there Big Morons to go along with the Littles?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @RobinG
    You allege that Art called the Founding Fathers liars, but show us where! He simply said the Red Sea never parted for Moses, which I took as, the FF were believers in that myth - a myth of all 3 Abrahamic religions, btw. But suppose they didn't believe. Then they were saying it for the effect on their constituents who did believe, so just polit-speak. Which is why I take all this FF stuff (praising Jews, quoting Bible) with a grain of salt. They were in the business of influence, like our pols today.

    Speaking of No Exodus, etc., I hope you read our notable agnostic Joe Webb's posts at Petras' "The Coup Against Trump..." Sorry, I can't remember which comment, imo, most excellent, but great insights throughout.

    Who's really lying? John Brennan, tonight on PBS Newshour, lying his eff'n brains out about the 'Russian hacking', but he stopped short at pretending the US hadn't been 'involved' in Syria all along. [Since before the beginning. :( ]

    Sorry, skipped a thought: I don’t think Art can get very far with criticizing your God. A whole lot of people are inclined to believe in a supreme being. (Even those with pantheons of multiple gods have one biggie.) So whether it’s the ‘real’ God is irrelevant. And of course there are those who use this mass tendency for political reasons. That’s what made me think of Joe the agnostic.

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    • Replies: @Art

    A whole lot of people are inclined to believe in a supreme being. So whether it’s the ‘real’ God is irrelevant.

     

    Thanks Robin for this opportunity to address the “Jew god thing.” What god image, or religion, or philosophy people hold is relevant to their lives and their neighbors lives. I believe that all gods, religions, and philosophies, and the cultures that they produce are NOT equal. Different religious cultures produce different outcomes. Some better than others.

    I respect people who believe in God – I am one of them.

    With that said, god is an idea, god is an image within our psyche. There is no proof one way or the other if there is an actual god of the universe. It is a matter of faith or belief.

    The image of god that the Jews hold is preposterous, it is farcical – idea that their “god of the whole universe” favors them over all of humanity is ridicules. So be it – if they want to think that absurdity – that is their problem.

    The rub is that they want us to believe it too. They want us to go along with their idiot view of the god of the universe. They actually condemn us, if we do not. They want us to allow them to steal Palestine because their god sanctions it. They want us to ignore their destruction of the ME. Their god is not a nice, fair minded guy – is he?

    The image of the Christian god that we hold in our mind is different – Jesus brought use a new image of god, he gave us a new mindset that is hopeful, fair minded, and forgiving. This new mindset has had a positive effect on humanity.

    The Jew image of god is clearly inferior to the Christian image of god.

    For the betterment of all – we Christians must assert our superior views.

    Peace --- Art
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    [There may have been Jew symbols used – but it was because of their connection to Jesus.]

    I see: Jesus was travelling with Moshe when the Red Sea parted?

    So in addition to calling the Founding Fathers liars, you are now involved in writing a new account of Jesus' birth, life and death.

    I'd say you need to reduce your consumption of pork and beans; that fire in your belly is gas.

    You allege that Art called the Founding Fathers liars, but show us where! He simply said the Red Sea never parted for Moses, which I took as, the FF were believers in that myth – a myth of all 3 Abrahamic religions, btw. But suppose they didn’t believe. Then they were saying it for the effect on their constituents who did believe, so just polit-speak. Which is why I take all this FF stuff (praising Jews, quoting Bible) with a grain of salt. They were in the business of influence, like our pols today.

    Speaking of No Exodus, etc., I hope you read our notable agnostic Joe Webb’s posts at Petras’ “The Coup Against Trump…” Sorry, I can’t remember which comment, imo, most excellent, but great insights throughout.

    Who’s really lying? John Brennan, tonight on PBS Newshour, lying his eff’n brains out about the ‘Russian hacking’, but he stopped short at pretending the US hadn’t been ‘involved’ in Syria all along. [Since before the beginning. :( ]

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Sorry, skipped a thought: I don't think Art can get very far with criticizing your God. A whole lot of people are inclined to believe in a supreme being. (Even those with pantheons of multiple gods have one biggie.) So whether it's the 'real' God is irrelevant. And of course there are those who use this mass tendency for political reasons. That's what made me think of Joe the agnostic.
    , @Sam Shama
    Hahahaaaa.

    Robin, you should really save your energy; is Art your little pet? Since you insist, I'll oblige:

    1. Jefferson (Adams and Madison) proposed the Exodus for the first design of the U.S. seal

    2. The Little Moron claimed “Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh is a total lie"

    3. You, Robin, claim that they did it for political purposes. [I could not disagree more; but that isn't so important for the argument]. You have no reason, none in the form of a charge brought to that effect by a contemporary of that period, making your accusation entirely the product of a personal speculation.

    (1) and (2) together requires at least a strongly transitive conclusion that Little Moron insinuated the FFs were engaged in propagating a lie.

    To compound his problems he went to say things like: Jew symbols were used insofar as they were connected to Jesus, Jesus made the Jews gain stature, Hebrew words for Light & Truth, Elohim etc, are Rothschild symbols, the Holocaust is a lie - this last one I mention only in that it seems an obligatory rite of passage for - to use GabrielM's useful term - Gaylord stormfags, and I have no wish to wade into that cesspool for any "debates".

    One of these assertions led me to credit him further with the unique discovery of Jesus of Nazareth's contemporaneousness with Moses. I did not go the excessively punitive distance of asking him to expand on the Rothschild symbols; that would be cruel; dog biscuits and lemonade for rations, I considered a just sentence.

    He went on to blabber something about FFs not having the benefit of Darwin, Charles D. apparently an autodidact operating entirely from inner (divine?) inspiration. Except he wasn't. Russell speaking on the subject had said: “The general idea of evolution is very old; it is already to be found in Anaximander [sixth century B.C.]. . . . Descartes [1596-1650], Kant [1724-1804], and Laplace [1749-1827] had advocated a gradual origin for the solar system in place of sudden creation."

    So, defend your co-position as doggedly without substance as you want [reminded me of another recent discussion where a revisionist twist on Hellenism, perhaps extending to Stoicism, was presented in the blinding light of new discovery which caused me to close my eyes in pain]

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Questions and observations:

    1. Were the Founding Fathers lying about the Exodus? If they were let's see your evidence and not the tiresome harangue and feigned doltish assertions

    2. [Those are Rothschild symbols] : Really? How stupid you sound. E.G. יהוה found on the Columbia seal, is G'd. The Yale symbol: האורים והתומים, Urim Ve Thummim means Light and Truth. So what exactly is your opinion again?

    3.[ Jesus made Jews important]: Possibly, and if so shouldn't you follow his cue?

    4. [What the Jews bring to the table is old world zero-sum greed, dishonesty, and tribalism]: Greed is a human trait, old or new, and Jews are not the only ones afflicted by it. E,g, did you eat the extra pork Moshe passed on?

    5. [The Rothschild are guilty of feeding war after war – feeding debt to incompetent ruler after incompetent ruler. ] Do you understand the meaning of credit? If so tell me how you'd get on without your credit cards. Now, if you engage in the screed I am quite familiar with [Fed, Fed...] I'll know that you know exactly nothing.

    6. [The Jew controlled central banking systems of today are doing the same thing – they put the citizenry in an endless cycle of debt – skimming the cream – sucking the life out of culture.]

    Oh, I spoke too soon. You are clueless. What in your opinion is culture as it pertains to the United States?

    Have a squint at this, me ole china and you may come to understand that jews can also be played in a similar fashion to non jews, just at a different point of the cycle. It is divide and rule on a much larger scale.

    The Esoteric Agenda

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQOfN63qpXs

    Defending Israel even when it is clearly in the wrong is not supporting real Judaism at all nor is it of any help to the majority of jews. In all of the so called religions there are those who go along only to exploit it and they serve the betterment of non but themselves.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @iffen
    Full stop, we have reached agreement.

    This bears repeating as it is accurate.

    The term “Judeo-Christian” was originally coined in the 1930s by liberal Christians and Jews who sought to encourage ecumenical relations between those two faiths for the purpose of fighting the growing racism, xenophobia and nativism of that time. But in the 1950s the term was adopted by political conservatives who used the phrase “Judeo-Christian values” as a cudgel in the fight against fellow Americans they accused of being “Godless communists.” And since the 1970s the call for a return to so-called “Judeo-Christian values” has been used by the Christian right as code language to their base for a particular brand of conservative policies that are anything but inclusive.
     
    In the 1930’s the Jew-haters were out in force. Christians and Jews of good faith started to use the term in the fight against the Jew-haters.

    The term was revived by Evangelicals in their fight against various enemies.

    It is a political term that divides.

    It is quite simple, two sides, choose.

    It is a political term that divides.

    It is quite simple, two sides, choose.

    It has been shown to have no validity and therefore should not be used as a substitute for Western cultural traditions.

    I, therefore, choose to use the historically-valid term “Western” over the historically-invalid term “Judeo-Christian.”

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    Wait! I’ll see your Jew and raise you several Jews.
     
    I think these two sources should just about do it.

    1. Dear Ted Cruz, Quit Using 'Judeo-Christian Values' To Exploit My Faith

    by Rabbi Salomon Gruenwald

    When you use the term “Judeo-Christian,” you give your particular brand of Christian ideology a veneer of universalism it does not merit. It is misleading to suggest that your ideas are part of a “Judeo-Christian tradition.” The term “Judeo-Christian” was originally coined in the 1930s by liberal Christians and Jews who sought to encourage ecumenical relations between those two faiths for the purpose of fighting the growing racism, xenophobia and nativism of that time. But in the 1950s the term was adopted by political conservatives who used the phrase “Judeo-Christian values” as a cudgel in the fight against fellow Americans they accused of being “Godless communists.” And since the 1970s the call for a return to so-called “Judeo-Christian values” has been used by the Christian right as code language to their base for a particular brand of conservative policies that are anything but inclusive.

    http://forward.com/opinion/334403/dear-ted-cruz-quit-using-judeo-christian-values-to-exploit-my-faith/
     

    2. There’s No Such Thing as Judeo-Christian Values
    by Yori Yanover

    But even if we were to forgive Klinghoffer’s imperfect awareness of Jewish history, the very assumption of such a thing as universally accepted Christian principles is patently wrong, just like the notion that the U.S. Constitution is based on them.

    Klinghoffer must be familiar with historian Brooke Allen’s popular book Moral Minority (Ivan R. Dee, 2007), in which she shows that the six most important founders—Franklin, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison and Hamilton—were Enlightenment-style deists, who rejected the notion of making religion a basis for political life.

    They valued the separation of church and state. They devoted a passage in the US Constitution to eschewing religion as a basis for political life. They talked about God the “Divine Author” (Washington) or the “Superior Agent” (Jefferson). The Founding Fathers weren’t atheists—nobody was in the 18th century. (Nobody except Thomas Paine, that is.) But to suggest that someone like George Washington would look to the Bible to “apply practical consequences” to political life is tantamount to telling a lie—which we have on reliable tradition that our first president was incapable of doing...

    Having conjured the notion of universal Christian principles out of whole cloth, Klinghoffer now moves on to another product of the American imagination: “Judeo-Christian values.”

    …Pretending to fight “theocracy,” secularists are in fact attempting a radical redirection of American life that seeks to silence the authentic Judeo-Christian heritage that has sustained America since the country’s inception.

    Klinghoffer should read Arthur Allen Cohen’s The Myth of the Judeo-Christian Tradition (Harper & Row, 1969), which questions the appropriateness of the term, theologically and historically, suggesting instead that it is an invention of American politics.

    Cohen thinks that there is simply no such thing as Judeo-Christian tradition. He points to the fact that the two religions have had separate theological agendas for the last two thousand years.

    Or, if Klinghoffer prefers a gentile’s opinion:

    The label “Judeo-Christian” tends to assume, at the expense of Judaism, that Christians and Jews believe essentially the same things. Besides glossing over the very real and important theological and liturgical differences, it tends to subsume Jewish traditions within an umbrella that is dominated by Christian ideas and practices. (Religion and the Workplace: Pluralism, Spirituality, Leadership, by Douglas A. Hicks; Cambridge University Press, 2003)

    Let’s be clear: Far from “sharing” one tradition, Orthodox Jews are prohibited from marrying Christians, setting foot inside a Christian church—and we can’t even drink from an open bottle of kosher wine that has been used by a Christian. We reject the Christian idea of salvation, we abhor Christian divine teachings on every subject, and we are repulsed and outraged by incessant attempts by Christian missionaries to bring us into their fold.

    It is particularly disturbing when Klinghoffer makes statements which reveal his complete assumption of elements of New Testament Pauline ideology, for instance, the requirement that wives submit to their husband’s authority. There is no mandate on precisely how a woman should behave with her husband—Jews expect the happy couple to work it out for themselves. Also, while divorce may be a tragedy, and God cries, it is in no way banned—in Judaism, that is. The story in Christianity, and Klinghoffer’s “Judeo-Christian Biblical America,” is different.

    Incidentally, we have more in common with Muslims than we do with Christians; Jewish law permits Jews to enter a mosque… but not a church.

    To insist that we have some kind of bond with religious Christians because of similar core values, is to propagate a terrible lie. Christians who base their views on what they call the Old Testament, don’t view Mosaic law as an abiding legal text. The Church has abolished Torah law as part of its attempt to abolish the very idea of Jewish nationhood.

    Pauline anti-Judaism seems not to be through the left hand as an implication of his Christology; rather his teaching on the law appears to be a spear in his right hand aimed straight at the heart of Judaism, that is, Torah… [Paul] does not disagree with individual Jews but with Judaism itself, saying that Christianity has replaced it. By attacking the law as such, Paul appears to attack not abuses and personal failings but the essence of Israel. (Paul and the Torah, by Lloyd Gaston; University of British Columbia Press, 1987.)

    Jews and Christians differ on every single fundamental principle—even on the meaning of core Scriptural texts. More crucially, Christians rely on the Old Testament for legal delineation; whereas Jews rely solely upon our rabbinic tradition. We never, ever turn to our Bible for legal guidance, only to our rabbinic literature. To suggest that our Sages had anything at all in common with the likes of Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Carter or Pat Robertson is a slap in the face of 2500 years of scholarship.

    Judeo-Christian” is as valid a concept as happy-joylessness, or tall dwarves. Klinghoffer’s yearnings for this repugnant “ideal” is a deviant phenomenon without a trace of commonality in traditional Jewish thought, ancient or modern.

    I have deep respect for religious leaders active in the interfaith arena, who seek to communicate and cooperate with Christians on political and social issues. But I resent Klinghoffer’s attempt to erect an ideological partnership between Christianity and its blameless victims.

    David Klinghoffer attempts to rile up his readers through an attack on the “atheist left.” In the process, he manages to break away from the very rabbinic Judaism he claims as his base. This book will attempt to correct his errors, which are numerous, not in an attempt to persuade readers that God’s vote is with liberal lefties rather than with conservative righties, but, instead, to uphold our rabbinic tradition of multiple opinions. What this means in practice is that you can’t cry “God says so” in a crowded town hall meeting.

    http://www.jewishpress.com/blogs/yoris-news-clips/theres-no-such-thing-as-judeo-christian-values/2013/12/26/
     

    Full stop, we have reached agreement.

    This bears repeating as it is accurate.

    The term “Judeo-Christian” was originally coined in the 1930s by liberal Christians and Jews who sought to encourage ecumenical relations between those two faiths for the purpose of fighting the growing racism, xenophobia and nativism of that time. But in the 1950s the term was adopted by political conservatives who used the phrase “Judeo-Christian values” as a cudgel in the fight against fellow Americans they accused of being “Godless communists.” And since the 1970s the call for a return to so-called “Judeo-Christian values” has been used by the Christian right as code language to their base for a particular brand of conservative policies that are anything but inclusive.

    In the 1930’s the Jew-haters were out in force. Christians and Jews of good faith started to use the term in the fight against the Jew-haters.

    The term was revived by Evangelicals in their fight against various enemies.

    It is a political term that divides.

    It is quite simple, two sides, choose.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    It is a political term that divides.

    It is quite simple, two sides, choose.
     
    It has been shown to have no validity and therefore should not be used as a substitute for Western cultural traditions.

    I, therefore, choose to use the historically-valid term "Western" over the historically-invalid term "Judeo-Christian."
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @iffen
    Well, I guess this ends this debate.

    You found a Jew that supports your position.

    Wait! I'll see your Jew and raise you several Jews.

    Although he was highly influential, Neusner was criticized by scholars in his field of study.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15]

    Some were critical of his methodology, and asserted that many of his arguments were circular or attempts to prove "negative assumptions" from a lack of evidence,[5][6][8][10][11] while others concentrated on Neusner's reading and interpretations of Rabbinic texts, finding that his account was forced and inaccurate.[9][14][15]

    Neusner's view that the Second Commonwealth Pharisees were a sectarian group centered on "table fellowship" and ritual food purity practices, and his lack of interest in wider Jewish values or social issues, has been criticized by E. P. Sanders,[11] Solomon Zeitlin[12] and Hyam Maccoby.[8]

    Some scholars questioned Neusner's grasp of Rabbinic Hebrew and Aramaic. The most famous and biting criticism came from Neusner's former teacher, Saul Lieberman, about Neusner's translation of the Jerusalem Talmud. Lieberman wrote: "...one begins to doubt the credibility of the translator [Neusner]. And indeed after a superficial perusal of the translation, the reader is stunned by [Neusner's] ignorance of Rabbinic Hebrew, of Aramaic grammar, and above all of the subject matter with which he deals." He ended his review: "I conclude with a clear conscience: The right place for [Neusner's] English translation is the waste basket."[16]

    Wait! I’ll see your Jew and raise you several Jews.

    I think these two sources should just about do it.

    1. Dear Ted Cruz, Quit Using ‘Judeo-Christian Values’ To Exploit My Faith

    by Rabbi Salomon Gruenwald

    When you use the term “Judeo-Christian,” you give your particular brand of Christian ideology a veneer of universalism it does not merit. It is misleading to suggest that your ideas are part of a “Judeo-Christian tradition.” The term “Judeo-Christian” was originally coined in the 1930s by liberal Christians and Jews who sought to encourage ecumenical relations between those two faiths for the purpose of fighting the growing racism, xenophobia and nativism of that time. But in the 1950s the term was adopted by political conservatives who used the phrase “Judeo-Christian values” as a cudgel in the fight against fellow Americans they accused of being “Godless communists.” And since the 1970s the call for a return to so-called “Judeo-Christian values” has been used by the Christian right as code language to their base for a particular brand of conservative policies that are anything but inclusive.

    http://forward.com/opinion/334403/dear-ted-cruz-quit-using-judeo-christian-values-to-exploit-my-faith/

    2. There’s No Such Thing as Judeo-Christian Values
    by Yori Yanover

    But even if we were to forgive Klinghoffer’s imperfect awareness of Jewish history, the very assumption of such a thing as universally accepted Christian principles is patently wrong, just like the notion that the U.S. Constitution is based on them.

    Klinghoffer must be familiar with historian Brooke Allen’s popular book Moral Minority (Ivan R. Dee, 2007), in which she shows that the six most important founders—Franklin, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison and Hamilton—were Enlightenment-style deists, who rejected the notion of making religion a basis for political life.

    They valued the separation of church and state. They devoted a passage in the US Constitution to eschewing religion as a basis for political life. They talked about God the “Divine Author” (Washington) or the “Superior Agent” (Jefferson). The Founding Fathers weren’t atheists—nobody was in the 18th century. (Nobody except Thomas Paine, that is.) But to suggest that someone like George Washington would look to the Bible to “apply practical consequences” to political life is tantamount to telling a lie—which we have on reliable tradition that our first president was incapable of doing…

    Having conjured the notion of universal Christian principles out of whole cloth, Klinghoffer now moves on to another product of the American imagination: “Judeo-Christian values.”

    …Pretending to fight “theocracy,” secularists are in fact attempting a radical redirection of American life that seeks to silence the authentic Judeo-Christian heritage that has sustained America since the country’s inception.

    Klinghoffer should read Arthur Allen Cohen’s The Myth of the Judeo-Christian Tradition (Harper & Row, 1969), which questions the appropriateness of the term, theologically and historically, suggesting instead that it is an invention of American politics.

    Cohen thinks that there is simply no such thing as Judeo-Christian tradition. He points to the fact that the two religions have had separate theological agendas for the last two thousand years.

    Or, if Klinghoffer prefers a gentile’s opinion:

    The label “Judeo-Christian” tends to assume, at the expense of Judaism, that Christians and Jews believe essentially the same things. Besides glossing over the very real and important theological and liturgical differences, it tends to subsume Jewish traditions within an umbrella that is dominated by Christian ideas and practices. (Religion and the Workplace: Pluralism, Spirituality, Leadership, by Douglas A. Hicks; Cambridge University Press, 2003)

    Let’s be clear: Far from “sharing” one tradition, Orthodox Jews are prohibited from marrying Christians, setting foot inside a Christian church—and we can’t even drink from an open bottle of kosher wine that has been used by a Christian. We reject the Christian idea of salvation, we abhor Christian divine teachings on every subject, and we are repulsed and outraged by incessant attempts by Christian missionaries to bring us into their fold.

    It is particularly disturbing when Klinghoffer makes statements which reveal his complete assumption of elements of New Testament Pauline ideology, for instance, the requirement that wives submit to their husband’s authority. There is no mandate on precisely how a woman should behave with her husband—Jews expect the happy couple to work it out for themselves. Also, while divorce may be a tragedy, and God cries, it is in no way banned—in Judaism, that is. The story in Christianity, and Klinghoffer’s “Judeo-Christian Biblical America,” is different.

    Incidentally, we have more in common with Muslims than we do with Christians; Jewish law permits Jews to enter a mosque… but not a church.

    To insist that we have some kind of bond with religious Christians because of similar core values, is to propagate a terrible lie. Christians who base their views on what they call the Old Testament, don’t view Mosaic law as an abiding legal text. The Church has abolished Torah law as part of its attempt to abolish the very idea of Jewish nationhood.

    Pauline anti-Judaism seems not to be through the left hand as an implication of his Christology; rather his teaching on the law appears to be a spear in his right hand aimed straight at the heart of Judaism, that is, Torah… [Paul] does not disagree with individual Jews but with Judaism itself, saying that Christianity has replaced it. By attacking the law as such, Paul appears to attack not abuses and personal failings but the essence of Israel. (Paul and the Torah, by Lloyd Gaston; University of British Columbia Press, 1987.)

    Jews and Christians differ on every single fundamental principle—even on the meaning of core Scriptural texts. More crucially, Christians rely on the Old Testament for legal delineation; whereas Jews rely solely upon our rabbinic tradition. We never, ever turn to our Bible for legal guidance, only to our rabbinic literature. To suggest that our Sages had anything at all in common with the likes of Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Carter or Pat Robertson is a slap in the face of 2500 years of scholarship.

    Judeo-Christian” is as valid a concept as happy-joylessness, or tall dwarves. Klinghoffer’s yearnings for this repugnant “ideal” is a deviant phenomenon without a trace of commonality in traditional Jewish thought, ancient or modern.

    I have deep respect for religious leaders active in the interfaith arena, who seek to communicate and cooperate with Christians on political and social issues. But I resent Klinghoffer’s attempt to erect an ideological partnership between Christianity and its blameless victims.

    David Klinghoffer attempts to rile up his readers through an attack on the “atheist left.” In the process, he manages to break away from the very rabbinic Judaism he claims as his base. This book will attempt to correct his errors, which are numerous, not in an attempt to persuade readers that God’s vote is with liberal lefties rather than with conservative righties, but, instead, to uphold our rabbinic tradition of multiple opinions. What this means in practice is that you can’t cry “God says so” in a crowded town hall meeting.

    http://www.jewishpress.com/blogs/yoris-news-clips/theres-no-such-thing-as-judeo-christian-values/2013/12/26/

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Full stop, we have reached agreement.

    This bears repeating as it is accurate.

    The term “Judeo-Christian” was originally coined in the 1930s by liberal Christians and Jews who sought to encourage ecumenical relations between those two faiths for the purpose of fighting the growing racism, xenophobia and nativism of that time. But in the 1950s the term was adopted by political conservatives who used the phrase “Judeo-Christian values” as a cudgel in the fight against fellow Americans they accused of being “Godless communists.” And since the 1970s the call for a return to so-called “Judeo-Christian values” has been used by the Christian right as code language to their base for a particular brand of conservative policies that are anything but inclusive.
     
    In the 1930’s the Jew-haters were out in force. Christians and Jews of good faith started to use the term in the fight against the Jew-haters.

    The term was revived by Evangelicals in their fight against various enemies.

    It is a political term that divides.

    It is quite simple, two sides, choose.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @iffen
    Well, I guess this ends this debate.

    You found a Jew that supports your position.

    Wait! I'll see your Jew and raise you several Jews.

    Although he was highly influential, Neusner was criticized by scholars in his field of study.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15]

    Some were critical of his methodology, and asserted that many of his arguments were circular or attempts to prove "negative assumptions" from a lack of evidence,[5][6][8][10][11] while others concentrated on Neusner's reading and interpretations of Rabbinic texts, finding that his account was forced and inaccurate.[9][14][15]

    Neusner's view that the Second Commonwealth Pharisees were a sectarian group centered on "table fellowship" and ritual food purity practices, and his lack of interest in wider Jewish values or social issues, has been criticized by E. P. Sanders,[11] Solomon Zeitlin[12] and Hyam Maccoby.[8]

    Some scholars questioned Neusner's grasp of Rabbinic Hebrew and Aramaic. The most famous and biting criticism came from Neusner's former teacher, Saul Lieberman, about Neusner's translation of the Jerusalem Talmud. Lieberman wrote: "...one begins to doubt the credibility of the translator [Neusner]. And indeed after a superficial perusal of the translation, the reader is stunned by [Neusner's] ignorance of Rabbinic Hebrew, of Aramaic grammar, and above all of the subject matter with which he deals." He ended his review: "I conclude with a clear conscience: The right place for [Neusner's] English translation is the waste basket."[16]

    [Wait! I’ll see your Jew and raise you several Jews.]

    LOL. Trial by Jewry?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art

    I couldn’t have improved on what Talha wrote in post #481; the most important idea being the urgent need for a stable solution; one which would fail basic tests if Gaza were to be artificially attached with the PA.

     

    Little Jew - who are you to decide the fate of a million plus people? Clearly you are not a Western democrat. You live on the other side of the Earth. It seems that you truly are a pure tribal Jew - not an American.

    Doing so only caters to the wishes of PA/Hamas who’d want nothing better than international aid flowing into their pockets.
     
    Little Jew -- you mean money flowing into Jew pockets is GOOD - Palestinian pockets is bad. I see you values - money for the well off - but NOT for the poor.

    We can clearly see why Christianity is superior.

    Getting Egypt to take on Gaza will require money and certain concessions from Israel……
     
    Oh NO - a concession by the Jew - NEVER - perish the thought - kill that idea.

    Peace --- Art

    [Little Jew – who are you to decide the fate of a million plus people? Clearly you are not a Western democrat. You live on the other side of the Earth. It seems that you truly are a pure tribal Jew – not an American.]

    Little Moron, I am who I am. Clearly, you are not mentally well. You live in an asylum. It seems you are a pure takfiri- not an American.

    [Little Jew — you mean money flowing into Jew pockets is GOOD – Palestinian pockets is bad. I see you values – money for the well off – but NOT for the poor.

    We can clearly see why Christianity is superior. ]

    Little Moron – I am definitely giving orders to restrict your rations to include only dog biscuits and a glass of lemonade. It’ll stop your gas and save me money.

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  • @geokat62
    Here's some more goodies from non-wiki sources:

    Curriculum review: where did ‘Judeo-Christian’ come from?

    By simply typing “Judeo-Christian” into its wonderfully simple search tool, Australia’s youngsters will be no doubt regaled with stirring accounts of Australians founding a modern democracy on a shared commitment to a Judeo-Christian heritage, or valiantly fighting to defend Judeo-Christian values on the battlefield at Gallipoli.

    The only problem is that they won’t. The term doesn’t even appear until 1974. Throughout the 1970s, 80s and 90s it is used in only a handful of contexts without any apparent consistency in its meaning. In fact, the vast majority of the 855 results the search generates are dated from late 2001 onwards. Until September 11, it appears Australians didn’t give a fig about Judeo-Christian values.

    The notion of a Judeo-Christian tradition is, in fact, borrowed from American public discourse. But even in the US, it is still a relatively recent idea. According to US researchers, the term only began to regularly appear during and after World War Two, when progressives sought an inclusive term that naturalised the incorporation of Jews into mainstream US society.

    http://theconversation.com/curriculum-review-where-did-judeo-christian-come-from-21969
     

    There is no need to google yourself into frenzy for pedantry.

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  • @geokat62

    Wiki is your friend. Learn to use it.
     
    It may not be Wiki, but it's still good enough:

    The Myth of a Judeo Christian Tradition

    "Back in 1992 both Newsweek magazine and the Israeli Jerusalem Post newspaper simultaneously printed extensive articles scrutinising the roots of the sacrosanct Judeo-Christian honeymoon!...

    For scholars of American religion," Newsweek states, "the idea of a single Judeo-Christian tradition is a made-in-America myth that many of them no longer regard as valid." It quotes eminent Talmudic scholar Jacob Neusner: "Theologically and historically, there is no such thing as the Judeo-Christian tradition. It's a secular myth favoured by people who are not really believers themselves."

    https://www.biblebelievers.org.au/judeochr.htm
     

    Well, I guess this ends this debate.

    You found a Jew that supports your position.

    Wait! I’ll see your Jew and raise you several Jews.

    Although he was highly influential, Neusner was criticized by scholars in his field of study.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15]

    Some were critical of his methodology, and asserted that many of his arguments were circular or attempts to prove “negative assumptions” from a lack of evidence,[5][6][8][10][11] while others concentrated on Neusner’s reading and interpretations of Rabbinic texts, finding that his account was forced and inaccurate.[9][14][15]

    Neusner’s view that the Second Commonwealth Pharisees were a sectarian group centered on “table fellowship” and ritual food purity practices, and his lack of interest in wider Jewish values or social issues, has been criticized by E. P. Sanders,[11] Solomon Zeitlin[12] and Hyam Maccoby.[8]

    Some scholars questioned Neusner’s grasp of Rabbinic Hebrew and Aramaic. The most famous and biting criticism came from Neusner’s former teacher, Saul Lieberman, about Neusner’s translation of the Jerusalem Talmud. Lieberman wrote: “…one begins to doubt the credibility of the translator [Neusner]. And indeed after a superficial perusal of the translation, the reader is stunned by [Neusner's] ignorance of Rabbinic Hebrew, of Aramaic grammar, and above all of the subject matter with which he deals.” He ended his review: “I conclude with a clear conscience: The right place for [Neusner's] English translation is the waste basket.”[16]

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    [Wait! I’ll see your Jew and raise you several Jews.]

    LOL. Trial by Jewry?

    , @geokat62

    Wait! I’ll see your Jew and raise you several Jews.
     
    I think these two sources should just about do it.

    1. Dear Ted Cruz, Quit Using 'Judeo-Christian Values' To Exploit My Faith

    by Rabbi Salomon Gruenwald

    When you use the term “Judeo-Christian,” you give your particular brand of Christian ideology a veneer of universalism it does not merit. It is misleading to suggest that your ideas are part of a “Judeo-Christian tradition.” The term “Judeo-Christian” was originally coined in the 1930s by liberal Christians and Jews who sought to encourage ecumenical relations between those two faiths for the purpose of fighting the growing racism, xenophobia and nativism of that time. But in the 1950s the term was adopted by political conservatives who used the phrase “Judeo-Christian values” as a cudgel in the fight against fellow Americans they accused of being “Godless communists.” And since the 1970s the call for a return to so-called “Judeo-Christian values” has been used by the Christian right as code language to their base for a particular brand of conservative policies that are anything but inclusive.

    http://forward.com/opinion/334403/dear-ted-cruz-quit-using-judeo-christian-values-to-exploit-my-faith/
     

    2. There’s No Such Thing as Judeo-Christian Values
    by Yori Yanover

    But even if we were to forgive Klinghoffer’s imperfect awareness of Jewish history, the very assumption of such a thing as universally accepted Christian principles is patently wrong, just like the notion that the U.S. Constitution is based on them.

    Klinghoffer must be familiar with historian Brooke Allen’s popular book Moral Minority (Ivan R. Dee, 2007), in which she shows that the six most important founders—Franklin, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison and Hamilton—were Enlightenment-style deists, who rejected the notion of making religion a basis for political life.

    They valued the separation of church and state. They devoted a passage in the US Constitution to eschewing religion as a basis for political life. They talked about God the “Divine Author” (Washington) or the “Superior Agent” (Jefferson). The Founding Fathers weren’t atheists—nobody was in the 18th century. (Nobody except Thomas Paine, that is.) But to suggest that someone like George Washington would look to the Bible to “apply practical consequences” to political life is tantamount to telling a lie—which we have on reliable tradition that our first president was incapable of doing...

    Having conjured the notion of universal Christian principles out of whole cloth, Klinghoffer now moves on to another product of the American imagination: “Judeo-Christian values.”

    …Pretending to fight “theocracy,” secularists are in fact attempting a radical redirection of American life that seeks to silence the authentic Judeo-Christian heritage that has sustained America since the country’s inception.

    Klinghoffer should read Arthur Allen Cohen’s The Myth of the Judeo-Christian Tradition (Harper & Row, 1969), which questions the appropriateness of the term, theologically and historically, suggesting instead that it is an invention of American politics.

    Cohen thinks that there is simply no such thing as Judeo-Christian tradition. He points to the fact that the two religions have had separate theological agendas for the last two thousand years.

    Or, if Klinghoffer prefers a gentile’s opinion:

    The label “Judeo-Christian” tends to assume, at the expense of Judaism, that Christians and Jews believe essentially the same things. Besides glossing over the very real and important theological and liturgical differences, it tends to subsume Jewish traditions within an umbrella that is dominated by Christian ideas and practices. (Religion and the Workplace: Pluralism, Spirituality, Leadership, by Douglas A. Hicks; Cambridge University Press, 2003)

    Let’s be clear: Far from “sharing” one tradition, Orthodox Jews are prohibited from marrying Christians, setting foot inside a Christian church—and we can’t even drink from an open bottle of kosher wine that has been used by a Christian. We reject the Christian idea of salvation, we abhor Christian divine teachings on every subject, and we are repulsed and outraged by incessant attempts by Christian missionaries to bring us into their fold.

    It is particularly disturbing when Klinghoffer makes statements which reveal his complete assumption of elements of New Testament Pauline ideology, for instance, the requirement that wives submit to their husband’s authority. There is no mandate on precisely how a woman should behave with her husband—Jews expect the happy couple to work it out for themselves. Also, while divorce may be a tragedy, and God cries, it is in no way banned—in Judaism, that is. The story in Christianity, and Klinghoffer’s “Judeo-Christian Biblical America,” is different.

    Incidentally, we have more in common with Muslims than we do with Christians; Jewish law permits Jews to enter a mosque… but not a church.

    To insist that we have some kind of bond with religious Christians because of similar core values, is to propagate a terrible lie. Christians who base their views on what they call the Old Testament, don’t view Mosaic law as an abiding legal text. The Church has abolished Torah law as part of its attempt to abolish the very idea of Jewish nationhood.

    Pauline anti-Judaism seems not to be through the left hand as an implication of his Christology; rather his teaching on the law appears to be a spear in his right hand aimed straight at the heart of Judaism, that is, Torah… [Paul] does not disagree with individual Jews but with Judaism itself, saying that Christianity has replaced it. By attacking the law as such, Paul appears to attack not abuses and personal failings but the essence of Israel. (Paul and the Torah, by Lloyd Gaston; University of British Columbia Press, 1987.)

    Jews and Christians differ on every single fundamental principle—even on the meaning of core Scriptural texts. More crucially, Christians rely on the Old Testament for legal delineation; whereas Jews rely solely upon our rabbinic tradition. We never, ever turn to our Bible for legal guidance, only to our rabbinic literature. To suggest that our Sages had anything at all in common with the likes of Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Carter or Pat Robertson is a slap in the face of 2500 years of scholarship.

    Judeo-Christian” is as valid a concept as happy-joylessness, or tall dwarves. Klinghoffer’s yearnings for this repugnant “ideal” is a deviant phenomenon without a trace of commonality in traditional Jewish thought, ancient or modern.

    I have deep respect for religious leaders active in the interfaith arena, who seek to communicate and cooperate with Christians on political and social issues. But I resent Klinghoffer’s attempt to erect an ideological partnership between Christianity and its blameless victims.

    David Klinghoffer attempts to rile up his readers through an attack on the “atheist left.” In the process, he manages to break away from the very rabbinic Judaism he claims as his base. This book will attempt to correct his errors, which are numerous, not in an attempt to persuade readers that God’s vote is with liberal lefties rather than with conservative righties, but, instead, to uphold our rabbinic tradition of multiple opinions. What this means in practice is that you can’t cry “God says so” in a crowded town hall meeting.

    http://www.jewishpress.com/blogs/yoris-news-clips/theres-no-such-thing-as-judeo-christian-values/2013/12/26/
     
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art
    Our Fore Fathers did not have the benefit of Darwin – he intellectually put to rest all the BS about a Jew god. The non-existence Jew god is the foundation lie put out by Judaism. From that all the other lies flow.

    There may have been Jew symbols used – but it was because of their connection to Jesus. Not because that had any intrinsic value on their own. They are still valueless today.

    You Jews have no secrets of great value other than how to mislead people.

    At that you are the best.

    Peace --- Art

    [There may have been Jew symbols used – but it was because of their connection to Jesus.]

    I see: Jesus was travelling with Moshe when the Red Sea parted?

    So in addition to calling the Founding Fathers liars, you are now involved in writing a new account of Jesus’ birth, life and death.

    I’d say you need to reduce your consumption of pork and beans; that fire in your belly is gas.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    You allege that Art called the Founding Fathers liars, but show us where! He simply said the Red Sea never parted for Moses, which I took as, the FF were believers in that myth - a myth of all 3 Abrahamic religions, btw. But suppose they didn't believe. Then they were saying it for the effect on their constituents who did believe, so just polit-speak. Which is why I take all this FF stuff (praising Jews, quoting Bible) with a grain of salt. They were in the business of influence, like our pols today.

    Speaking of No Exodus, etc., I hope you read our notable agnostic Joe Webb's posts at Petras' "The Coup Against Trump..." Sorry, I can't remember which comment, imo, most excellent, but great insights throughout.

    Who's really lying? John Brennan, tonight on PBS Newshour, lying his eff'n brains out about the 'Russian hacking', but he stopped short at pretending the US hadn't been 'involved' in Syria all along. [Since before the beginning. :( ]
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    Wiki is your friend. Learn to use it.
     
    It may not be Wiki, but it's still good enough:

    The Myth of a Judeo Christian Tradition

    "Back in 1992 both Newsweek magazine and the Israeli Jerusalem Post newspaper simultaneously printed extensive articles scrutinising the roots of the sacrosanct Judeo-Christian honeymoon!...

    For scholars of American religion," Newsweek states, "the idea of a single Judeo-Christian tradition is a made-in-America myth that many of them no longer regard as valid." It quotes eminent Talmudic scholar Jacob Neusner: "Theologically and historically, there is no such thing as the Judeo-Christian tradition. It's a secular myth favoured by people who are not really believers themselves."

    https://www.biblebelievers.org.au/judeochr.htm
     

    Here’s some more goodies from non-wiki sources:

    Curriculum review: where did ‘Judeo-Christian’ come from?

    By simply typing “Judeo-Christian” into its wonderfully simple search tool, Australia’s youngsters will be no doubt regaled with stirring accounts of Australians founding a modern democracy on a shared commitment to a Judeo-Christian heritage, or valiantly fighting to defend Judeo-Christian values on the battlefield at Gallipoli.

    The only problem is that they won’t. The term doesn’t even appear until 1974. Throughout the 1970s, 80s and 90s it is used in only a handful of contexts without any apparent consistency in its meaning. In fact, the vast majority of the 855 results the search generates are dated from late 2001 onwards. Until September 11, it appears Australians didn’t give a fig about Judeo-Christian values.

    The notion of a Judeo-Christian tradition is, in fact, borrowed from American public discourse. But even in the US, it is still a relatively recent idea. According to US researchers, the term only began to regularly appear during and after World War Two, when progressives sought an inclusive term that naturalised the incorporation of Jews into mainstream US society.

    http://theconversation.com/curriculum-review-where-did-judeo-christian-come-from-21969

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    There is no need to google yourself into frenzy for pedantry.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    I couldn't have improved on what Talha wrote in post #481; the most important idea being the urgent need for a stable solution; one which would fail basic tests if Gaza were to be artificially attached with the PA. Doing so only caters to the wishes of PA/Hamas who'd want nothing better than international aid flowing into their pockets. Getting Egypt to take on Gaza will require money and certain concessions from Israel......

    I couldn’t have improved on what Talha wrote in post #481; the most important idea being the urgent need for a stable solution; one which would fail basic tests if Gaza were to be artificially attached with the PA.

    Little Jew – who are you to decide the fate of a million plus people? Clearly you are not a Western democrat. You live on the other side of the Earth. It seems that you truly are a pure tribal Jew – not an American.

    Doing so only caters to the wishes of PA/Hamas who’d want nothing better than international aid flowing into their pockets.

    Little Jew — you mean money flowing into Jew pockets is GOOD – Palestinian pockets is bad. I see you values – money for the well off – but NOT for the poor.

    We can clearly see why Christianity is superior.

    Getting Egypt to take on Gaza will require money and certain concessions from Israel……

    Oh NO – a concession by the Jew – NEVER – perish the thought – kill that idea.

    Peace — Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    [Little Jew – who are you to decide the fate of a million plus people? Clearly you are not a Western democrat. You live on the other side of the Earth. It seems that you truly are a pure tribal Jew – not an American.]

    Little Moron, I am who I am. Clearly, you are not mentally well. You live in an asylum. It seems you are a pure takfiri- not an American.

    [Little Jew — you mean money flowing into Jew pockets is GOOD – Palestinian pockets is bad. I see you values – money for the well off – but NOT for the poor.

    We can clearly see why Christianity is superior. ]

    Little Moron - I am definitely giving orders to restrict your rations to include only dog biscuits and a glass of lemonade. It'll stop your gas and save me money.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @iffen
    Wiki is your friend. Learn to use it.

    From Wiki:

    The Faiths of the Founding Fathers is a book by historian of American religion David L. Holmes of the College of William & Mary.[1] Holmes approaches the topic of the religion of the founders of the United States by analyzing their public statements and correspondence, the comments left by their contemporaries, and the views, where available, of clergy who knew them.
    The main thesis of the book, found on page 134, is that the U.S. Founding Fathers fell into three religious categories:
    1.the smallest group, founders who had left their Judeo-Christian heritages and become advocates of the Enlightenment religion of nature and reason called "Deism". These figures included Thomas Paine and Ethan Allen.

    2.the founders who remained practicing Christians. They retained a supernaturalist world view, a belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and an adherence to the teachings of their denomination. These founders included Patrick Henry, John Jay, and Samuel Adams. Holmes also finds that most of the wives and daughters of the founders fell into this category.

    3.the largest group consisted of founders who retained Christian loyalties and practice but were influenced by Deism. They believed in little or none of the miracles and supernaturalism inherent in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Holmes finds a spectrum of such Deistic Christians among the founders, ranging from John Adams and George Washington on the conservative right to Benjamin Franklin and James Monroe on the skeptical left.

    The well-reviewed[1][dubious – discuss] book is one of the first[citation needed] to question the assertions of secular historians that the founders were all Unitarians or Deists and of evangelical pastors that they were orthodox and sometimes born-again Christians who intended to found a Christian nation. Holmes tries to show that all three of the groups he names were present at every step of the founding of the nation.

    A Christian is a person who follows or adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. "Christian" derives from the Koine Greek word Christós (Χριστός), a translation of the Biblical Hebrew term mashiach.[4]

    The Bible (from Koine Greek τὰ βιβλία, tà biblía, "the books"[1]) is a collection of sacred texts or scriptures that Jews and Christians consider to be a product of divine inspiration and a record of the relationship between God and humans.

    Many different authors contributed to the Bible. And what is regarded as canonical text differs depending on traditions and groups; a number of Bible canons have evolved, with overlapping and diverging contents.[2] The Christian Old Testament overlaps with the Hebrew Bible and the Greek Septuagint; the Hebrew Bible is known in Judaism as the Tanakh. The New Testament is a collection of writings by early Christians, believed to be mostly Jewish disciples of Christ, written in first-century Koine Greek. These early Christian Greek writings consist of narratives, letters, and apocalyptic writings.

    Group 1, FFs who formally left their Judeo-Christian heritage. Most of them threw out the baby but kept the bathwater of Judeo-Christianity.

    Group 2, Speaks for itself, full-on Judeo-Christians.

    Group 3, FFs who kept their Judeo-Christian heritage, but discarded some of the miracles and supernaturalism.

    Wiki is your friend. Learn to use it.

    It may not be Wiki, but it’s still good enough:

    The Myth of a Judeo Christian Tradition

    “Back in 1992 both Newsweek magazine and the Israeli Jerusalem Post newspaper simultaneously printed extensive articles scrutinising the roots of the sacrosanct Judeo-Christian honeymoon!…

    For scholars of American religion,” Newsweek states, “the idea of a single Judeo-Christian tradition is a made-in-America myth that many of them no longer regard as valid.” It quotes eminent Talmudic scholar Jacob Neusner: “Theologically and historically, there is no such thing as the Judeo-Christian tradition. It’s a secular myth favoured by people who are not really believers themselves.”

    https://www.biblebelievers.org.au/judeochr.htm

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62
    Here's some more goodies from non-wiki sources:

    Curriculum review: where did ‘Judeo-Christian’ come from?

    By simply typing “Judeo-Christian” into its wonderfully simple search tool, Australia’s youngsters will be no doubt regaled with stirring accounts of Australians founding a modern democracy on a shared commitment to a Judeo-Christian heritage, or valiantly fighting to defend Judeo-Christian values on the battlefield at Gallipoli.

    The only problem is that they won’t. The term doesn’t even appear until 1974. Throughout the 1970s, 80s and 90s it is used in only a handful of contexts without any apparent consistency in its meaning. In fact, the vast majority of the 855 results the search generates are dated from late 2001 onwards. Until September 11, it appears Australians didn’t give a fig about Judeo-Christian values.

    The notion of a Judeo-Christian tradition is, in fact, borrowed from American public discourse. But even in the US, it is still a relatively recent idea. According to US researchers, the term only began to regularly appear during and after World War Two, when progressives sought an inclusive term that naturalised the incorporation of Jews into mainstream US society.

    http://theconversation.com/curriculum-review-where-did-judeo-christian-come-from-21969
     
    , @iffen
    Well, I guess this ends this debate.

    You found a Jew that supports your position.

    Wait! I'll see your Jew and raise you several Jews.

    Although he was highly influential, Neusner was criticized by scholars in his field of study.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15]

    Some were critical of his methodology, and asserted that many of his arguments were circular or attempts to prove "negative assumptions" from a lack of evidence,[5][6][8][10][11] while others concentrated on Neusner's reading and interpretations of Rabbinic texts, finding that his account was forced and inaccurate.[9][14][15]

    Neusner's view that the Second Commonwealth Pharisees were a sectarian group centered on "table fellowship" and ritual food purity practices, and his lack of interest in wider Jewish values or social issues, has been criticized by E. P. Sanders,[11] Solomon Zeitlin[12] and Hyam Maccoby.[8]

    Some scholars questioned Neusner's grasp of Rabbinic Hebrew and Aramaic. The most famous and biting criticism came from Neusner's former teacher, Saul Lieberman, about Neusner's translation of the Jerusalem Talmud. Lieberman wrote: "...one begins to doubt the credibility of the translator [Neusner]. And indeed after a superficial perusal of the translation, the reader is stunned by [Neusner's] ignorance of Rabbinic Hebrew, of Aramaic grammar, and above all of the subject matter with which he deals." He ended his review: "I conclude with a clear conscience: The right place for [Neusner's] English translation is the waste basket."[16]

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Questions and observations:

    1. Were the Founding Fathers lying about the Exodus? If they were let's see your evidence and not the tiresome harangue and feigned doltish assertions

    2. [Those are Rothschild symbols] : Really? How stupid you sound. E.G. יהוה found on the Columbia seal, is G'd. The Yale symbol: האורים והתומים, Urim Ve Thummim means Light and Truth. So what exactly is your opinion again?

    3.[ Jesus made Jews important]: Possibly, and if so shouldn't you follow his cue?

    4. [What the Jews bring to the table is old world zero-sum greed, dishonesty, and tribalism]: Greed is a human trait, old or new, and Jews are not the only ones afflicted by it. E,g, did you eat the extra pork Moshe passed on?

    5. [The Rothschild are guilty of feeding war after war – feeding debt to incompetent ruler after incompetent ruler. ] Do you understand the meaning of credit? If so tell me how you'd get on without your credit cards. Now, if you engage in the screed I am quite familiar with [Fed, Fed...] I'll know that you know exactly nothing.

    6. [The Jew controlled central banking systems of today are doing the same thing – they put the citizenry in an endless cycle of debt – skimming the cream – sucking the life out of culture.]

    Oh, I spoke too soon. You are clueless. What in your opinion is culture as it pertains to the United States?

    Our Fore Fathers did not have the benefit of Darwin – he intellectually put to rest all the BS about a Jew god. The non-existence Jew god is the foundation lie put out by Judaism. From that all the other lies flow.

    There may have been Jew symbols used – but it was because of their connection to Jesus. Not because that had any intrinsic value on their own. They are still valueless today.

    You Jews have no secrets of great value other than how to mislead people.

    At that you are the best.

    Peace — Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    [There may have been Jew symbols used – but it was because of their connection to Jesus.]

    I see: Jesus was travelling with Moshe when the Red Sea parted?

    So in addition to calling the Founding Fathers liars, you are now involved in writing a new account of Jesus' birth, life and death.

    I'd say you need to reduce your consumption of pork and beans; that fire in your belly is gas.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62
    Thanks for putting that on the record, Talha.

    I couldn’t have improved on what Talha wrote in post #481; the most important idea being the urgent need for a stable solution; one which would fail basic tests if Gaza were to be artificially attached with the PA. Doing so only caters to the wishes of PA/Hamas who’d want nothing better than international aid flowing into their pockets. Getting Egypt to take on Gaza will require money and certain concessions from Israel……

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art

    I couldn’t have improved on what Talha wrote in post #481; the most important idea being the urgent need for a stable solution; one which would fail basic tests if Gaza were to be artificially attached with the PA.

     

    Little Jew - who are you to decide the fate of a million plus people? Clearly you are not a Western democrat. You live on the other side of the Earth. It seems that you truly are a pure tribal Jew - not an American.

    Doing so only caters to the wishes of PA/Hamas who’d want nothing better than international aid flowing into their pockets.
     
    Little Jew -- you mean money flowing into Jew pockets is GOOD - Palestinian pockets is bad. I see you values - money for the well off - but NOT for the poor.

    We can clearly see why Christianity is superior.

    Getting Egypt to take on Gaza will require money and certain concessions from Israel……
     
    Oh NO - a concession by the Jew - NEVER - perish the thought - kill that idea.

    Peace --- Art
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    it will slow your submergence into the refreshing waters of reality.
     
    You must be referring to those Judeo-Christian waters of reality, right iffen?

    Wiki is your friend. Learn to use it.

    From Wiki:

    The Faiths of the Founding Fathers is a book by historian of American religion David L. Holmes of the College of William & Mary.[1] Holmes approaches the topic of the religion of the founders of the United States by analyzing their public statements and correspondence, the comments left by their contemporaries, and the views, where available, of clergy who knew them.
    The main thesis of the book, found on page 134, is that the U.S. Founding Fathers fell into three religious categories:
    1.the smallest group, founders who had left their Judeo-Christian heritages and become advocates of the Enlightenment religion of nature and reason called “Deism”. These figures included Thomas Paine and Ethan Allen.

    2.the founders who remained practicing Christians. They retained a supernaturalist world view, a belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and an adherence to the teachings of their denomination. These founders included Patrick Henry, John Jay, and Samuel Adams. Holmes also finds that most of the wives and daughters of the founders fell into this category.

    3.the largest group consisted of founders who retained Christian loyalties and practice but were influenced by Deism. They believed in little or none of the miracles and supernaturalism inherent in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Holmes finds a spectrum of such Deistic Christians among the founders, ranging from John Adams and George Washington on the conservative right to Benjamin Franklin and James Monroe on the skeptical left.

    The well-reviewed[1][dubious – discuss] book is one of the first[citation needed] to question the assertions of secular historians that the founders were all Unitarians or Deists and of evangelical pastors that they were orthodox and sometimes born-again Christians who intended to found a Christian nation. Holmes tries to show that all three of the groups he names were present at every step of the founding of the nation.

    A Christian is a person who follows or adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. “Christian” derives from the Koine Greek word Christós (Χριστός), a translation of the Biblical Hebrew term mashiach.[4]

    The Bible (from Koine Greek τὰ βιβλία, tà biblía, “the books”[1]) is a collection of sacred texts or scriptures that Jews and Christians consider to be a product of divine inspiration and a record of the relationship between God and humans.

    Many different authors contributed to the Bible. And what is regarded as canonical text differs depending on traditions and groups; a number of Bible canons have evolved, with overlapping and diverging contents.[2] The Christian Old Testament overlaps with the Hebrew Bible and the Greek Septuagint; the Hebrew Bible is known in Judaism as the Tanakh. The New Testament is a collection of writings by early Christians, believed to be mostly Jewish disciples of Christ, written in first-century Koine Greek. These early Christian Greek writings consist of narratives, letters, and apocalyptic writings.

    Group 1, FFs who formally left their Judeo-Christian heritage. Most of them threw out the baby but kept the bathwater of Judeo-Christianity.

    Group 2, Speaks for itself, full-on Judeo-Christians.

    Group 3, FFs who kept their Judeo-Christian heritage, but discarded some of the miracles and supernaturalism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    Wiki is your friend. Learn to use it.
     
    It may not be Wiki, but it's still good enough:

    The Myth of a Judeo Christian Tradition

    "Back in 1992 both Newsweek magazine and the Israeli Jerusalem Post newspaper simultaneously printed extensive articles scrutinising the roots of the sacrosanct Judeo-Christian honeymoon!...

    For scholars of American religion," Newsweek states, "the idea of a single Judeo-Christian tradition is a made-in-America myth that many of them no longer regard as valid." It quotes eminent Talmudic scholar Jacob Neusner: "Theologically and historically, there is no such thing as the Judeo-Christian tradition. It's a secular myth favoured by people who are not really believers themselves."

    https://www.biblebelievers.org.au/judeochr.htm
     
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    it will slow your submergence into the refreshing waters of reality.
     
    You must be referring to those Judeo-Christian waters of reality, right iffen?

    If you are searching narrowly for the word “Judeo-Christian” you may not find it (see Gavriel Sivan, The Bible and Civilization).

    In truth, even Adams who spoke and wrote so glowingly of Jews found them somewhat exasperating to deal with as individuals; he had hoped they would become Unitarian Christians. However, he was unflinching in his belief that having the people of the Book as a key population group in the U.S. Similarly, Jefferson wanted Jews to be better trained in Classical Englightment.

    Speaking of Classical Enlightenment:

    We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

    Where do you think the conviction of these rights as given by G’D comes from?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art
    Those are Rothschild symbols - wouldn't you know it - it's all about Jew MONEY – it’s about the root of all evil.

    Jesus made Jews important – the New Testament brings the Old Testament to the world. Unfortunately the OT is baggage. The new social idealism found in the NT displaces the revengeful evil found in the OT.

    What the Jews bring to the table is old world zero-sum greed, dishonesty, and tribalism. Look at Israel – look at its leader – there is not a man on this Earth that is more dishonest. Israel brings endless discord and upheaval to the ME and the world.

    The Rothschild are guilty of feeding war after war – feeding debt to incompetent ruler after incompetent ruler. They lent war money to rulers on both sides – whose people did the bleeding and then had to pay off the debt. Pure greed and evil.

    The Jew controlled central banking systems of today are doing the same thing – they put the citizenry in an endless cycle of debt – skimming the cream - sucking the life out of culture.

    You Little Jews are so proud of your Big Jew evil – what fools.

    Peace --- Art

    Questions and observations:

    1. Were the Founding Fathers lying about the Exodus? If they were let’s see your evidence and not the tiresome harangue and feigned doltish assertions

    2. [Those are Rothschild symbols] : Really? How stupid you sound. E.G. יהוה found on the Columbia seal, is G’d. The Yale symbol: האורים והתומים, Urim Ve Thummim means Light and Truth. So what exactly is your opinion again?

    3.[ Jesus made Jews important]: Possibly, and if so shouldn’t you follow his cue?

    4. [What the Jews bring to the table is old world zero-sum greed, dishonesty, and tribalism]: Greed is a human trait, old or new, and Jews are not the only ones afflicted by it. E,g, did you eat the extra pork Moshe passed on?

    5. [The Rothschild are guilty of feeding war after war – feeding debt to incompetent ruler after incompetent ruler. ] Do you understand the meaning of credit? If so tell me how you’d get on without your credit cards. Now, if you engage in the screed I am quite familiar with [Fed, Fed...] I’ll know that you know exactly nothing.

    6. [The Jew controlled central banking systems of today are doing the same thing – they put the citizenry in an endless cycle of debt – skimming the cream – sucking the life out of culture.]

    Oh, I spoke too soon. You are clueless. What in your opinion is culture as it pertains to the United States?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    Our Fore Fathers did not have the benefit of Darwin – he intellectually put to rest all the BS about a Jew god. The non-existence Jew god is the foundation lie put out by Judaism. From that all the other lies flow.

    There may have been Jew symbols used – but it was because of their connection to Jesus. Not because that had any intrinsic value on their own. They are still valueless today.

    You Jews have no secrets of great value other than how to mislead people.

    At that you are the best.

    Peace --- Art
    , @NoseytheDuke
    Have a squint at this, me ole china and you may come to understand that jews can also be played in a similar fashion to non jews, just at a different point of the cycle. It is divide and rule on a much larger scale.

    The Esoteric Agenda

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQOfN63qpXs

    Defending Israel even when it is clearly in the wrong is not supporting real Judaism at all nor is it of any help to the majority of jews. In all of the so called religions there are those who go along only to exploit it and they serve the betterment of non but themselves.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @iffen
    Keep flailing geo, it will slow your submergence into the refreshing waters of reality.

    it will slow your submergence into the refreshing waters of reality.

    You must be referring to those Judeo-Christian waters of reality, right iffen?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    If you are searching narrowly for the word "Judeo-Christian" you may not find it (see Gavriel Sivan, The Bible and Civilization).

    In truth, even Adams who spoke and wrote so glowingly of Jews found them somewhat exasperating to deal with as individuals; he had hoped they would become Unitarian Christians. However, he was unflinching in his belief that having the people of the Book as a key population group in the U.S. Similarly, Jefferson wanted Jews to be better trained in Classical Englightment.

    Speaking of Classical Enlightenment:

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

    Where do you think the conviction of these rights as given by G'D comes from?
    , @iffen
    Wiki is your friend. Learn to use it.

    From Wiki:

    The Faiths of the Founding Fathers is a book by historian of American religion David L. Holmes of the College of William & Mary.[1] Holmes approaches the topic of the religion of the founders of the United States by analyzing their public statements and correspondence, the comments left by their contemporaries, and the views, where available, of clergy who knew them.
    The main thesis of the book, found on page 134, is that the U.S. Founding Fathers fell into three religious categories:
    1.the smallest group, founders who had left their Judeo-Christian heritages and become advocates of the Enlightenment religion of nature and reason called "Deism". These figures included Thomas Paine and Ethan Allen.

    2.the founders who remained practicing Christians. They retained a supernaturalist world view, a belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and an adherence to the teachings of their denomination. These founders included Patrick Henry, John Jay, and Samuel Adams. Holmes also finds that most of the wives and daughters of the founders fell into this category.

    3.the largest group consisted of founders who retained Christian loyalties and practice but were influenced by Deism. They believed in little or none of the miracles and supernaturalism inherent in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Holmes finds a spectrum of such Deistic Christians among the founders, ranging from John Adams and George Washington on the conservative right to Benjamin Franklin and James Monroe on the skeptical left.

    The well-reviewed[1][dubious – discuss] book is one of the first[citation needed] to question the assertions of secular historians that the founders were all Unitarians or Deists and of evangelical pastors that they were orthodox and sometimes born-again Christians who intended to found a Christian nation. Holmes tries to show that all three of the groups he names were present at every step of the founding of the nation.

    A Christian is a person who follows or adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. "Christian" derives from the Koine Greek word Christós (Χριστός), a translation of the Biblical Hebrew term mashiach.[4]

    The Bible (from Koine Greek τὰ βιβλία, tà biblía, "the books"[1]) is a collection of sacred texts or scriptures that Jews and Christians consider to be a product of divine inspiration and a record of the relationship between God and humans.

    Many different authors contributed to the Bible. And what is regarded as canonical text differs depending on traditions and groups; a number of Bible canons have evolved, with overlapping and diverging contents.[2] The Christian Old Testament overlaps with the Hebrew Bible and the Greek Septuagint; the Hebrew Bible is known in Judaism as the Tanakh. The New Testament is a collection of writings by early Christians, believed to be mostly Jewish disciples of Christ, written in first-century Koine Greek. These early Christian Greek writings consist of narratives, letters, and apocalyptic writings.

    Group 1, FFs who formally left their Judeo-Christian heritage. Most of them threw out the baby but kept the bathwater of Judeo-Christianity.

    Group 2, Speaks for itself, full-on Judeo-Christians.

    Group 3, FFs who kept their Judeo-Christian heritage, but discarded some of the miracles and supernaturalism.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @iffen
    Sam has thoroughly trounced your theme that the founding of our nation state was not indebted to and imbued with many of the principles and ideas found in Judaism.

    This denialist screed slithered (I am learning a lot from Sam) into view in the 20th century, attempting to deny the idea that we were founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

    It failed then and it fails now.

    We were.

    Sam has pointed you to the documents, the seals, the friezes and the murals.

    Read’em and weep.

    Those are Rothschild symbols – wouldn’t you know it – it’s all about Jew MONEY – it’s about the root of all evil.

    Jesus made Jews important – the New Testament brings the Old Testament to the world. Unfortunately the OT is baggage. The new social idealism found in the NT displaces the revengeful evil found in the OT.

    What the Jews bring to the table is old world zero-sum greed, dishonesty, and tribalism. Look at Israel – look at its leader – there is not a man on this Earth that is more dishonest. Israel brings endless discord and upheaval to the ME and the world.

    The Rothschild are guilty of feeding war after war – feeding debt to incompetent ruler after incompetent ruler. They lent war money to rulers on both sides – whose people did the bleeding and then had to pay off the debt. Pure greed and evil.

    The Jew controlled central banking systems of today are doing the same thing – they put the citizenry in an endless cycle of debt – skimming the cream – sucking the life out of culture.

    You Little Jews are so proud of your Big Jew evil – what fools.

    Peace — Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Questions and observations:

    1. Were the Founding Fathers lying about the Exodus? If they were let's see your evidence and not the tiresome harangue and feigned doltish assertions

    2. [Those are Rothschild symbols] : Really? How stupid you sound. E.G. יהוה found on the Columbia seal, is G'd. The Yale symbol: האורים והתומים, Urim Ve Thummim means Light and Truth. So what exactly is your opinion again?

    3.[ Jesus made Jews important]: Possibly, and if so shouldn't you follow his cue?

    4. [What the Jews bring to the table is old world zero-sum greed, dishonesty, and tribalism]: Greed is a human trait, old or new, and Jews are not the only ones afflicted by it. E,g, did you eat the extra pork Moshe passed on?

    5. [The Rothschild are guilty of feeding war after war – feeding debt to incompetent ruler after incompetent ruler. ] Do you understand the meaning of credit? If so tell me how you'd get on without your credit cards. Now, if you engage in the screed I am quite familiar with [Fed, Fed...] I'll know that you know exactly nothing.

    6. [The Jew controlled central banking systems of today are doing the same thing – they put the citizenry in an endless cycle of debt – skimming the cream – sucking the life out of culture.]

    Oh, I spoke too soon. You are clueless. What in your opinion is culture as it pertains to the United States?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62
    Here's my second installment:

    2. Foundations of American Government

    Democracy was not created in a heartbeat. In a world where people were ruled by monarchs from above, the idea of self-government is entirely alien. Democracy takes practice and wisdom from experience.

    The American colonies began developing a democratic tradition during their earliest stages of development. Over 150 years later, the colonists believed their experience was great enough to refuse to recognize the British king. The first decade was rocky. The American Revolution and the domestic instability that followed prompted a call for a new type of government with a constitution to guarantee liberty. The constitution drafted in the early days of the independent American republic has endured longer than any in human history.

    Where did this democratic tradition truly begin? The ideas and practices that led to the development of the American democratic republic owe a debt to the ancient civilizations of Greece and Rome, the Protestant Reformation, and Gutenberg's printing press. But the Enlightenment of 17th-century Europe had the most immediate impact on the framers of the United States Constitution.

    The Philosophes

    Europeans of the 17th century no longer lived in the "darkness" of the Middle Ages. Ocean voyages had put them in touch with many world civilizations, and trade had created a prosperous middle class. The Protestant Reformation encouraged free thinkers to question the practices of the Catholic Church, and the printing press spread the new ideas relatively quickly and easily. The time was ripe for the philosophes, scholars who promoted democracy and justice through discussions of individual liberty and equality.

    One of the first philosophes was Thomas Hobbes, an Englishman who concluded in his famous book, Leviathan, that people are incapable of ruling themselves, primarily because humans are naturally self-centered and quarrelsome and need the iron fist of a strong leader. Later philosophes, like Voltaire, Montesquieu, and Rousseau were more optimistic about democracy. Their ideas encouraged the questioning of absolute monarchs, like the Bourbon family that ruled France. Montesquieu suggested a separation of powers into branches of government not unlike the system Americans would later adopt. They found eager students who later became the founders of the American government.

    John Locke

    The single most important influence that shaped the founding of the United States comes from John Locke, a 17th century Englishman who redefined the nature of government. Although he agreed with Hobbes regarding the self-interested nature of humans, he was much more optimistic about their ability to use reason to avoid tyranny. In his Second Treatise of Government, Locke identified the basis of a legitimate government. According to Locke, a ruler gains authority through the consent of the governed. The duty of that government is to protect the natural rights of the people, which Locke believed to include life, liberty, and property. If the government should fail to protect these rights, its citizens would have the right to overthrow that government. This idea deeply influenced Thomas Jefferson as he drafted the Declaration of Independence.

    Important English Documents

    Ironically, the English political system provided the grist for the revolt of its own American colonies. For many centuries English monarchs had allowed restrictions to be placed on their ultimate power. The Magna Carta, written in 1215, established the kernel of limited government, or the belief that the monarch's rule was not absolute. Although the document only forced King John to consult nobles before he made arbitrary decisions like passing taxes, the Magna Carta provided the basis for the later development of Parliament. Over the years, representative government led by a Prime Minister came to control and eventually replace the king as the real source of power in Britain.

    The Petition of Right (1628) extended the rights of "commoners" to have a voice in the government. The English Bill of Rights (1688) guaranteed free elections and rights for citizens accused of crime. Although King George III still had some real power in 1776, Britain was already well along on the path of democracy by that time.

    The foundations of American government lie squarely in the 17th and 18th century European Enlightenment. The American founders were well versed in the writings of the philosophes, whose ideas influenced the shaping of the new country. Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, James Madison, and others took the brave steps of creating a government based on the Enlightenment values of liberty, equality, and a new form of justice. More than 200 years later, that government is still intact.

    http://www.ushistory.org/gov/2.asp
     
    That's funny, no sign of that newfangled term "Judeo-Christian" anywhere in this piece.

    Keep flailing geo, it will slow your submergence into the refreshing waters of reality.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    it will slow your submergence into the refreshing waters of reality.
     
    You must be referring to those Judeo-Christian waters of reality, right iffen?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    Sam has thoroughly trounced your theme that the founding of our nation state was not indebted to and imbued with many of the principles and ideas found in Judaism.
     
    Care to enumerate the many principles and ideas found in Judaism for us, iffen?

    I did a quick google search on this concept and here's what I found:


    If one refines the question to ask whether the Founding Fathers were motivated to act as they did based on their Christian faith, the answer becomes a little murkier, but the response is still "no." -
    Steven K. Green teaches law and history at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon. He is the author of the recent book, "Inventing a Christian America: The Myth of the Religious Founding."

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/living/america-christian-nation/
     

    Read’em and weep, indeed.

    Here’s my second installment:

    [MORE]

    2. Foundations of American Government

    Democracy was not created in a heartbeat. In a world where people were ruled by monarchs from above, the idea of self-government is entirely alien. Democracy takes practice and wisdom from experience.

    The American colonies began developing a democratic tradition during their earliest stages of development. Over 150 years later, the colonists believed their experience was great enough to refuse to recognize the British king. The first decade was rocky. The American Revolution and the domestic instability that followed prompted a call for a new type of government with a constitution to guarantee liberty. The constitution drafted in the early days of the independent American republic has endured longer than any in human history.

    Where did this democratic tradition truly begin? The ideas and practices that led to the development of the American democratic republic owe a debt to the ancient civilizations of Greece and Rome, the Protestant Reformation, and Gutenberg’s printing press. But the Enlightenment of 17th-century Europe had the most immediate impact on the framers of the United States Constitution.

    The Philosophes

    Europeans of the 17th century no longer lived in the “darkness” of the Middle Ages. Ocean voyages had put them in touch with many world civilizations, and trade had created a prosperous middle class. The Protestant Reformation encouraged free thinkers to question the practices of the Catholic Church, and the printing press spread the new ideas relatively quickly and easily. The time was ripe for the philosophes, scholars who promoted democracy and justice through discussions of individual liberty and equality.

    One of the first philosophes was Thomas Hobbes, an Englishman who concluded in his famous book, Leviathan, that people are incapable of ruling themselves, primarily because humans are naturally self-centered and quarrelsome and need the iron fist of a strong leader. Later philosophes, like Voltaire, Montesquieu, and Rousseau were more optimistic about democracy. Their ideas encouraged the questioning of absolute monarchs, like the Bourbon family that ruled France. Montesquieu suggested a separation of powers into branches of government not unlike the system Americans would later adopt. They found eager students who later became the founders of the American government.

    John Locke

    The single most important influence that shaped the founding of the United States comes from John Locke, a 17th century Englishman who redefined the nature of government. Although he agreed with Hobbes regarding the self-interested nature of humans, he was much more optimistic about their ability to use reason to avoid tyranny. In his Second Treatise of Government, Locke identified the basis of a legitimate government. According to Locke, a ruler gains authority through the consent of the governed. The duty of that government is to protect the natural rights of the people, which Locke believed to include life, liberty, and property. If the government should fail to protect these rights, its citizens would have the right to overthrow that government. This idea deeply influenced Thomas Jefferson as he drafted the Declaration of Independence.

    Important English Documents

    Ironically, the English political system provided the grist for the revolt of its own American colonies. For many centuries English monarchs had allowed restrictions to be placed on their ultimate power. The Magna Carta, written in 1215, established the kernel of limited government, or the belief that the monarch’s rule was not absolute. Although the document only forced King John to consult nobles before he made arbitrary decisions like passing taxes, the Magna Carta provided the basis for the later development of Parliament. Over the years, representative government led by a Prime Minister came to control and eventually replace the king as the real source of power in Britain.

    The Petition of Right (1628) extended the rights of “commoners” to have a voice in the government. The English Bill of Rights (1688) guaranteed free elections and rights for citizens accused of crime. Although King George III still had some real power in 1776, Britain was already well along on the path of democracy by that time.

    The foundations of American government lie squarely in the 17th and 18th century European Enlightenment. The American founders were well versed in the writings of the philosophes, whose ideas influenced the shaping of the new country. Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, James Madison, and others took the brave steps of creating a government based on the Enlightenment values of liberty, equality, and a new form of justice. More than 200 years later, that government is still intact.

    http://www.ushistory.org/gov/2.asp

    That’s funny, no sign of that newfangled term “Judeo-Christian” anywhere in this piece.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Keep flailing geo, it will slow your submergence into the refreshing waters of reality.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @iffen
    Sam has thoroughly trounced your theme that the founding of our nation state was not indebted to and imbued with many of the principles and ideas found in Judaism.

    This denialist screed slithered (I am learning a lot from Sam) into view in the 20th century, attempting to deny the idea that we were founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

    It failed then and it fails now.

    We were.

    Sam has pointed you to the documents, the seals, the friezes and the murals.

    Read’em and weep.

    Sam has thoroughly trounced your theme that the founding of our nation state was not indebted to and imbued with many of the principles and ideas found in Judaism.

    Care to enumerate the many principles and ideas found in Judaism for us, iffen?

    I did a quick google search on this concept and here’s what I found:

    If one refines the question to ask whether the Founding Fathers were motivated to act as they did based on their Christian faith, the answer becomes a little murkier, but the response is still “no.” –
    Steven K. Green teaches law and history at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon. He is the author of the recent book, “Inventing a Christian America: The Myth of the Religious Founding.”

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/living/america-christian-nation/

    Read’em and weep, indeed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62
    Here's my second installment:

    2. Foundations of American Government

    Democracy was not created in a heartbeat. In a world where people were ruled by monarchs from above, the idea of self-government is entirely alien. Democracy takes practice and wisdom from experience.

    The American colonies began developing a democratic tradition during their earliest stages of development. Over 150 years later, the colonists believed their experience was great enough to refuse to recognize the British king. The first decade was rocky. The American Revolution and the domestic instability that followed prompted a call for a new type of government with a constitution to guarantee liberty. The constitution drafted in the early days of the independent American republic has endured longer than any in human history.

    Where did this democratic tradition truly begin? The ideas and practices that led to the development of the American democratic republic owe a debt to the ancient civilizations of Greece and Rome, the Protestant Reformation, and Gutenberg's printing press. But the Enlightenment of 17th-century Europe had the most immediate impact on the framers of the United States Constitution.

    The Philosophes

    Europeans of the 17th century no longer lived in the "darkness" of the Middle Ages. Ocean voyages had put them in touch with many world civilizations, and trade had created a prosperous middle class. The Protestant Reformation encouraged free thinkers to question the practices of the Catholic Church, and the printing press spread the new ideas relatively quickly and easily. The time was ripe for the philosophes, scholars who promoted democracy and justice through discussions of individual liberty and equality.

    One of the first philosophes was Thomas Hobbes, an Englishman who concluded in his famous book, Leviathan, that people are incapable of ruling themselves, primarily because humans are naturally self-centered and quarrelsome and need the iron fist of a strong leader. Later philosophes, like Voltaire, Montesquieu, and Rousseau were more optimistic about democracy. Their ideas encouraged the questioning of absolute monarchs, like the Bourbon family that ruled France. Montesquieu suggested a separation of powers into branches of government not unlike the system Americans would later adopt. They found eager students who later became the founders of the American government.

    John Locke

    The single most important influence that shaped the founding of the United States comes from John Locke, a 17th century Englishman who redefined the nature of government. Although he agreed with Hobbes regarding the self-interested nature of humans, he was much more optimistic about their ability to use reason to avoid tyranny. In his Second Treatise of Government, Locke identified the basis of a legitimate government. According to Locke, a ruler gains authority through the consent of the governed. The duty of that government is to protect the natural rights of the people, which Locke believed to include life, liberty, and property. If the government should fail to protect these rights, its citizens would have the right to overthrow that government. This idea deeply influenced Thomas Jefferson as he drafted the Declaration of Independence.

    Important English Documents

    Ironically, the English political system provided the grist for the revolt of its own American colonies. For many centuries English monarchs had allowed restrictions to be placed on their ultimate power. The Magna Carta, written in 1215, established the kernel of limited government, or the belief that the monarch's rule was not absolute. Although the document only forced King John to consult nobles before he made arbitrary decisions like passing taxes, the Magna Carta provided the basis for the later development of Parliament. Over the years, representative government led by a Prime Minister came to control and eventually replace the king as the real source of power in Britain.

    The Petition of Right (1628) extended the rights of "commoners" to have a voice in the government. The English Bill of Rights (1688) guaranteed free elections and rights for citizens accused of crime. Although King George III still had some real power in 1776, Britain was already well along on the path of democracy by that time.

    The foundations of American government lie squarely in the 17th and 18th century European Enlightenment. The American founders were well versed in the writings of the philosophes, whose ideas influenced the shaping of the new country. Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, James Madison, and others took the brave steps of creating a government based on the Enlightenment values of liberty, equality, and a new form of justice. More than 200 years later, that government is still intact.

    http://www.ushistory.org/gov/2.asp
     
    That's funny, no sign of that newfangled term "Judeo-Christian" anywhere in this piece.
    , @Alden
    I don't believe the founders wanted to found a country based on Christian principles either.

    But why cute a book written by a college professor? Except for STEM subjects every word written or spoken by the college profs since about 1960 has been an anti American, anti White Gramenscian, Alinsky Marxist lie.

    Only the incredibly naive believe anything a non STEM college prof says or writes.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    First, were you aware of any of this prior to my post?
     
    No clue, whatsoever. Very surprised, indeed.

    Trained Hebrew scholars – not all of them certainly, but a significant number were,...
     
    Looked for it, but couldn't find the supporting evidence for this in your source. Not saying it isn't there, I just may have missed it in the pages you referenced (50-73).

    Sam has thoroughly trounced your theme that the founding of our nation state was not indebted to and imbued with many of the principles and ideas found in Judaism.

    This denialist screed slithered (I am learning a lot from Sam) into view in the 20th century, attempting to deny the idea that we were founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

    It failed then and it fails now.

    We were.

    Sam has pointed you to the documents, the seals, the friezes and the murals.

    Read’em and weep.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    Sam has thoroughly trounced your theme that the founding of our nation state was not indebted to and imbued with many of the principles and ideas found in Judaism.
     
    Care to enumerate the many principles and ideas found in Judaism for us, iffen?

    I did a quick google search on this concept and here's what I found:


    If one refines the question to ask whether the Founding Fathers were motivated to act as they did based on their Christian faith, the answer becomes a little murkier, but the response is still "no." -
    Steven K. Green teaches law and history at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon. He is the author of the recent book, "Inventing a Christian America: The Myth of the Religious Founding."

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/living/america-christian-nation/
     

    Read’em and weep, indeed.
    , @Art
    Those are Rothschild symbols - wouldn't you know it - it's all about Jew MONEY – it’s about the root of all evil.

    Jesus made Jews important – the New Testament brings the Old Testament to the world. Unfortunately the OT is baggage. The new social idealism found in the NT displaces the revengeful evil found in the OT.

    What the Jews bring to the table is old world zero-sum greed, dishonesty, and tribalism. Look at Israel – look at its leader – there is not a man on this Earth that is more dishonest. Israel brings endless discord and upheaval to the ME and the world.

    The Rothschild are guilty of feeding war after war – feeding debt to incompetent ruler after incompetent ruler. They lent war money to rulers on both sides – whose people did the bleeding and then had to pay off the debt. Pure greed and evil.

    The Jew controlled central banking systems of today are doing the same thing – they put the citizenry in an endless cycle of debt – skimming the cream - sucking the life out of culture.

    You Little Jews are so proud of your Big Jew evil – what fools.

    Peace --- Art
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • […] This article was originally published by Unz Review. […]

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Hey Geo,

    Do I want that? No. But there are already around 2 million Palestinians living in Jordan. I want what is best for them, I'm really not interested in another Arab nation-state honestly. If they join with Egypt and that turns out better for them in the long run than a state run by corrupt Palestinians (not that Egypt is guaranteed to be better), then I see no problem. Our Ummah absorbed lots of populations in the past (fleeing Circassians in the Levant, fleeing Moors into Morocco, fleeing Albanians/Bosnians into Levant/Turkey), we can do it again.

    It is really up to the Palestinian people - it doesn't feel right asking them to fight anymore when basically no one wants to really help them in that fight. I cannot expect them to keep going this way - I would not be ashamed of them, I would be ashamed of us.

    But from a technical perspective, that is not forcing them off their land, it is merely switching the parameters of their sovereign status - and maybe they can get a good deal from Cairo guaranteeing them semi-autonomy along with economic integration. It would be nice having the sizable Egyptian military making sure IDF doesn't make any more excursions into it.

    Peace.

    Thanks for putting that on the record, Talha.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I couldn't have improved on what Talha wrote in post #481; the most important idea being the urgent need for a stable solution; one which would fail basic tests if Gaza were to be artificially attached with the PA. Doing so only caters to the wishes of PA/Hamas who'd want nothing better than international aid flowing into their pockets. Getting Egypt to take on Gaza will require money and certain concessions from Israel......
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    I’ll note for the record that the one person who is perhaps closest to the issue – in that he is Muslim,...
     
    Thanks for reminding me, Sam. I was going to follow-up with Talha to see if he is really supportive of your proposal to cleave the Palestinian peoples in half by casting off the Gazans to the Egyptians.

    Hey Geo,

    Do I want that? No. But there are already around 2 million Palestinians living in Jordan. I want what is best for them, I’m really not interested in another Arab nation-state honestly. If they join with Egypt and that turns out better for them in the long run than a state run by corrupt Palestinians (not that Egypt is guaranteed to be better), then I see no problem. Our Ummah absorbed lots of populations in the past (fleeing Circassians in the Levant, fleeing Moors into Morocco, fleeing Albanians/Bosnians into Levant/Turkey), we can do it again.

    It is really up to the Palestinian people – it doesn’t feel right asking them to fight anymore when basically no one wants to really help them in that fight. I cannot expect them to keep going this way – I would not be ashamed of them, I would be ashamed of us.

    But from a technical perspective, that is not forcing them off their land, it is merely switching the parameters of their sovereign status – and maybe they can get a good deal from Cairo guaranteeing them semi-autonomy along with economic integration. It would be nice having the sizable Egyptian military making sure IDF doesn’t make any more excursions into it.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62
    Thanks for putting that on the record, Talha.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Mao Cheng Ji
    For what it's worth (not much, as far as I'm concerned), Thomas Jefferson was of the opinion that Moses "instilled into his people the most anti-social spirit towards other nations".

    http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/presidents/thomas-jefferson/letters-of-thomas-jefferson/jefl261.php

    Whether he arrived at this, as well as his other unsympathetic opinions of "that sect", as he calls it, by reading Aramaic, we probably will never know.

    No doubt that would be the same Moses who received the Ten Commandments, or Laws of the Land, from Lord Jethro of Midian and the very same Moses whose childhood history just happens to be “miraculously” almost identical to the childhood history of Sargon the Great of Akkad around a couple of millennia previously.

    One has to admit that the “great” bible fraud has been amazingly effective.

    Read More
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  • @Sam Shama
    First, were you aware of any of this prior to my post? Art e.g. had no idea that the 1st design for the official seal was a rendering of the Exodus which he called a lie, and therefore the FFs, liars.

    Trained Hebrew scholars - not all of them certainly, but a significant number were, up to the level where they could translate long Biblical passages from Latin to Hebrew. Harvard, Yale, College of New Jersey (later Princeton- educated James Madison), King's College (later Columbia), College of William and Mary (educated Jefferson), Dartmouth, Rutgers were the alma maters of a significant number of not only the FFs but also the larger group of highly influential politicians. Most of them had a working knowledge of Hebrew.

    But we are merely scratching the surface, viewing the most visible things at this point. Should one be really interested in this pursuing this subject, one would require long hours of labour at the Library of Congress and the Kabbala Centre; the Declaration, The whole meaning of Liberty (וַיִּקְרָא or Leviticus 25:10) , the many original laws and indeed the methodology of coming up with appropriate and consistent laws will open up an understanding which perhaps only a few know and understand explicitly. Concepts that the FFs understood weren't for mass consumption, rather for the implicit benefit of the masses.

    I am afraid that is all I am able to say for the moment.

    Concepts that the FFs understood weren’t for mass consumption, rather for the implicit benefit of the masses.

    Sure thing — forget the Greeks and two thousand years of Christianity – our for fathers were secret Jew scholars.

    The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are knock offs of established volumes of tomes on Jew liberty and freedom. (You know like in Israel.)

    What is wrong with you people, you know that whites can’t do intellectual things like that on their own.

    Peace — Art

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  • @geokat62

    I’ll note for the record that the one person who is perhaps closest to the issue – in that he is Muslim,...
     
    Thanks for reminding me, Sam. I was going to follow-up with Talha to see if he is really supportive of your proposal to cleave the Palestinian peoples in half by casting off the Gazans to the Egyptians.

    Thanks for reminding me, Sam. I was going to follow-up with Talha to see if he is really supportive of your proposal to cleave the Palestinian peoples in half by casting off the Gazans to the Egyptians.

    Proof positive that the Jews are not Western democrats – the Palestinians have no say in this – the Jew is just going to do it.

    Peace — Art

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  • @geokat62

    I’ll note for the record that the one person who is perhaps closest to the issue – in that he is Muslim,...
     
    Thanks for reminding me, Sam. I was going to follow-up with Talha to see if he is really supportive of your proposal to cleave the Palestinian peoples in half by casting off the Gazans to the Egyptians.

    off the Gazans to the Egyptians.

    The Egyptians likely couldn’t be paid to take Gaza.

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  • @Sam Shama
    First, were you aware of any of this prior to my post? Art e.g. had no idea that the 1st design for the official seal was a rendering of the Exodus which he called a lie, and therefore the FFs, liars.

    Trained Hebrew scholars - not all of them certainly, but a significant number were, up to the level where they could translate long Biblical passages from Latin to Hebrew. Harvard, Yale, College of New Jersey (later Princeton- educated James Madison), King's College (later Columbia), College of William and Mary (educated Jefferson), Dartmouth, Rutgers were the alma maters of a significant number of not only the FFs but also the larger group of highly influential politicians. Most of them had a working knowledge of Hebrew.

    But we are merely scratching the surface, viewing the most visible things at this point. Should one be really interested in this pursuing this subject, one would require long hours of labour at the Library of Congress and the Kabbala Centre; the Declaration, The whole meaning of Liberty (וַיִּקְרָא or Leviticus 25:10) , the many original laws and indeed the methodology of coming up with appropriate and consistent laws will open up an understanding which perhaps only a few know and understand explicitly. Concepts that the FFs understood weren't for mass consumption, rather for the implicit benefit of the masses.

    I am afraid that is all I am able to say for the moment.

    For what it’s worth (not much, as far as I’m concerned), Thomas Jefferson was of the opinion that Moses “instilled into his people the most anti-social spirit towards other nations“.

    http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/presidents/thomas-jefferson/letters-of-thomas-jefferson/jefl261.php

    Whether he arrived at this, as well as his other unsympathetic opinions of “that sect”, as he calls it, by reading Aramaic, we probably will never know.

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    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    No doubt that would be the same Moses who received the Ten Commandments, or Laws of the Land, from Lord Jethro of Midian and the very same Moses whose childhood history just happens to be "miraculously" almost identical to the childhood history of Sargon the Great of Akkad around a couple of millennia previously.

    One has to admit that the "great" bible fraud has been amazingly effective.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Are there ten facts that Israeli, Palestinian, American, European, others may agree about?
    Much discussion of Israel is speculation and conjecture.
    What is needed now is to agree on some facts and stipulate to those.
    That prevents stupid rehash of old non-facts or opinions.
    Please make your lists.
    1
    2
    3

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  • @Sam Shama
    Not that it bears much of anything new, as I am well aware precious few are capable of unbiased opinion around here; yet since your important contention is that I propose forced transfers, I'll note for the record that the one person who is perhaps closest to the issue - in that he is Muslim, but more importantly in that he an objective eye - gainsays your stand on the matter:

    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1712849

    I’ll note for the record that the one person who is perhaps closest to the issue – in that he is Muslim,…

    Thanks for reminding me, Sam. I was going to follow-up with Talha to see if he is really supportive of your proposal to cleave the Palestinian peoples in half by casting off the Gazans to the Egyptians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    off the Gazans to the Egyptians.

    The Egyptians likely couldn't be paid to take Gaza.
    , @Art

    Thanks for reminding me, Sam. I was going to follow-up with Talha to see if he is really supportive of your proposal to cleave the Palestinian peoples in half by casting off the Gazans to the Egyptians.
     
    Proof positive that the Jews are not Western democrats – the Palestinians have no say in this – the Jew is just going to do it.

    Peace --- Art

    , @Talha
    Hey Geo,

    Do I want that? No. But there are already around 2 million Palestinians living in Jordan. I want what is best for them, I'm really not interested in another Arab nation-state honestly. If they join with Egypt and that turns out better for them in the long run than a state run by corrupt Palestinians (not that Egypt is guaranteed to be better), then I see no problem. Our Ummah absorbed lots of populations in the past (fleeing Circassians in the Levant, fleeing Moors into Morocco, fleeing Albanians/Bosnians into Levant/Turkey), we can do it again.

    It is really up to the Palestinian people - it doesn't feel right asking them to fight anymore when basically no one wants to really help them in that fight. I cannot expect them to keep going this way - I would not be ashamed of them, I would be ashamed of us.

    But from a technical perspective, that is not forcing them off their land, it is merely switching the parameters of their sovereign status - and maybe they can get a good deal from Cairo guaranteeing them semi-autonomy along with economic integration. It would be nice having the sizable Egyptian military making sure IDF doesn't make any more excursions into it.

    Peace.
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  • @geokat62

    Geokat. You make the fundamental error of assuming that Jews and Israel are judged by the same rules and standards as other people and other countries.
     
    Guilty as charged, CP.

    Not that it bears much of anything new, as I am well aware precious few are capable of unbiased opinion around here; yet since your important contention is that I propose forced transfers, I’ll note for the record that the one person who is perhaps closest to the issue – in that he is Muslim, but more importantly in that he an objective eye – gainsays your stand on the matter:

    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1712849

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    I’ll note for the record that the one person who is perhaps closest to the issue – in that he is Muslim,...
     
    Thanks for reminding me, Sam. I was going to follow-up with Talha to see if he is really supportive of your proposal to cleave the Palestinian peoples in half by casting off the Gazans to the Egyptians.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    First, were you aware of any of this prior to my post? Art e.g. had no idea that the 1st design for the official seal was a rendering of the Exodus which he called a lie, and therefore the FFs, liars.

    Trained Hebrew scholars - not all of them certainly, but a significant number were, up to the level where they could translate long Biblical passages from Latin to Hebrew. Harvard, Yale, College of New Jersey (later Princeton- educated James Madison), King's College (later Columbia), College of William and Mary (educated Jefferson), Dartmouth, Rutgers were the alma maters of a significant number of not only the FFs but also the larger group of highly influential politicians. Most of them had a working knowledge of Hebrew.

    But we are merely scratching the surface, viewing the most visible things at this point. Should one be really interested in this pursuing this subject, one would require long hours of labour at the Library of Congress and the Kabbala Centre; the Declaration, The whole meaning of Liberty (וַיִּקְרָא or Leviticus 25:10) , the many original laws and indeed the methodology of coming up with appropriate and consistent laws will open up an understanding which perhaps only a few know and understand explicitly. Concepts that the FFs understood weren't for mass consumption, rather for the implicit benefit of the masses.

    I am afraid that is all I am able to say for the moment.

    First, were you aware of any of this prior to my post?

    No clue, whatsoever. Very surprised, indeed.

    Trained Hebrew scholars – not all of them certainly, but a significant number were,…

    Looked for it, but couldn’t find the supporting evidence for this in your source. Not saying it isn’t there, I just may have missed it in the pages you referenced (50-73).

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    • Replies: @iffen
    Sam has thoroughly trounced your theme that the founding of our nation state was not indebted to and imbued with many of the principles and ideas found in Judaism.

    This denialist screed slithered (I am learning a lot from Sam) into view in the 20th century, attempting to deny the idea that we were founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

    It failed then and it fails now.

    We were.

    Sam has pointed you to the documents, the seals, the friezes and the murals.

    Read’em and weep.
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  • @geokat62

    I gave you the source. Abraham Katsh’s book. Look at pages 50-73, for the deep influences in the Ivies of the Hebrew language and Bible
     
    Thanks for the page references, Sam. I just finished reading them and just wanted to follow up on the two quotes I highlighted previously:

    1. Many of the Founding Fathers were trained Hebrew scholars, went to the elite schools of this country – which, to this day, preserve their mottos in Biblical Hebrew – and gave their commencement speeches in Hebrew.

    2. It was once contemplated that the Constitution be written in Hebrew.
     

    With regard to your first quote, when you wrote this I was expecting to read about how some of the key Founding Fathers - i.e., John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and George Washington - were trained Hebrew scholars.

    Unless I missed it, this is the closest I could find in your source:


    Many of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence, as graduates of colonial colleges, possessed at least a basic knowledge of Hebrew. - p. 55
     
    While not quite reaching the level of "trained scolars," the author also did not bother to provide any examples of which Signers of the DI possessed this basic knowledge of Hebrew.

    With regard to your second quote, here's what I read:


    At the time of the American Revolution, the interest in and knowledge of Hebrew in the colonies was so widespread as to allow the circulation of the story that "certain members of congress proposed that the use of English be formally prohibited in the United States, and Hebrew substituted for it." Whether or not there is any basis of fact for the story, it is plausible that in their patriotic zeal some people were eager to replace the tongue of the British with one which they regarded as their spiritual language; but the essential thing is that the people of that period considered the rumor likely enough to circulate it. - p. 70
     
    Once the full context is provided, it is clear how seriously this proposal to write the Constitution in Hebrew was being contemplated.

    First, were you aware of any of this prior to my post? Art e.g. had no idea that the 1st design for the official seal was a rendering of the Exodus which he called a lie, and therefore the FFs, liars.

    Trained Hebrew scholars – not all of them certainly, but a significant number were, up to the level where they could translate long Biblical passages from Latin to Hebrew. Harvard, Yale, College of New Jersey (later Princeton- educated James Madison), King’s College (later Columbia), College of William and Mary (educated Jefferson), Dartmouth, Rutgers were the alma maters of a significant number of not only the FFs but also the larger group of highly influential politicians. Most of them had a working knowledge of Hebrew.

    But we are merely scratching the surface, viewing the most visible things at this point. Should one be really interested in this pursuing this subject, one would require long hours of labour at the Library of Congress and the Kabbala Centre; the Declaration, The whole meaning of Liberty (וַיִּקְרָא or Leviticus 25:10) , the many original laws and indeed the methodology of coming up with appropriate and consistent laws will open up an understanding which perhaps only a few know and understand explicitly. Concepts that the FFs understood weren’t for mass consumption, rather for the implicit benefit of the masses.

    I am afraid that is all I am able to say for the moment.

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    • Replies: @geokat62

    First, were you aware of any of this prior to my post?
     
    No clue, whatsoever. Very surprised, indeed.

    Trained Hebrew scholars – not all of them certainly, but a significant number were,...
     
    Looked for it, but couldn't find the supporting evidence for this in your source. Not saying it isn't there, I just may have missed it in the pages you referenced (50-73).
    , @Mao Cheng Ji
    For what it's worth (not much, as far as I'm concerned), Thomas Jefferson was of the opinion that Moses "instilled into his people the most anti-social spirit towards other nations".

    http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/presidents/thomas-jefferson/letters-of-thomas-jefferson/jefl261.php

    Whether he arrived at this, as well as his other unsympathetic opinions of "that sect", as he calls it, by reading Aramaic, we probably will never know.
    , @Art
    Concepts that the FFs understood weren’t for mass consumption, rather for the implicit benefit of the masses.

    Sure thing --- forget the Greeks and two thousand years of Christianity - our for fathers were secret Jew scholars.

    The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are knock offs of established volumes of tomes on Jew liberty and freedom. (You know like in Israel.)

    What is wrong with you people, you know that whites can’t do intellectual things like that on their own.

    Peace --- Art
    , @Alden
    The Declaration of Independence and the constitution are based on the standard rules of the Masonic lodges.
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  • @Sam Shama
    I read the condensed version of PC. The ascription to Marxism is a tenuous one at best; Marx, whatever else one might think of him, was a brilliant and sincere intellectual; of course he had no sodding idea how a complex capitalist system should work, in addition to being a G'dless Marxist to boot :-) .

    The anti-PC movement which I reckoned somewhat overdue until the recent election of the Donald, ought to by itself, as is, make quick work of PC, finds it further necessary to tar the snowflakes and homosexuals with the leperous reputation of Marxism. I call that an overkill. Even as a strategic device it brings a bludgeon to swat a fly. I have a young cousin in one of the Ivies who routinely goes around running his mouth off at the PC events and gatherings with little consequence beyond shrugging off some screeching snowflakes, fruits, and their assorted helpers. He's been hauled to the headmaster's office [in a manner of speaking], as it turned out mainly for appearance's sake, and privately led to believe that the administrators were willing to connive if not actively encourage his behaviour. He's been attracting followers.

    So I sense that parents and teachers are perhaps watching all this with a measure of amusement, not alarm.

    I also sense PC is on the way out and all these attempts to link it somehow, to some obscure "school" is just another academic masturbatory exercise. However I do hope the exit of PC does not swing the pendulum to the opposite extreme where gratuitous slurs become the common standard.

    There is something to be said for everyday politeness.

    … all these attempts to link it somehow, to some obscure “school” is just another academic masturbatory exercise.

    So, let me see if I can properly summarize your views about the two key issues I’ve raised:

    1. Immigration trends – don’t sweat them, they will not have a dramatic impact on the makeup of western societies

    2. Franfurt School influences – don’t sweat it, the pendulum is about to swing in the other direction.

    Do I have that about right?

    So the message from Sam is, “don’t worry, be happy!”

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  • @Carroll Price
    Geokat. You make the fundamental error of assuming that Jews and Israel are judged by the same rules and standards as other people and other countries. They're not. It's like watching a foot ball game where one team abides by accepted rules of the game, while the other team modifies the rules to emerge the victor. Except for brief periods of history, it's always been that way.

    Geokat. You make the fundamental error of assuming that Jews and Israel are judged by the same rules and standards as other people and other countries.

    Guilty as charged, CP.

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Not that it bears much of anything new, as I am well aware precious few are capable of unbiased opinion around here; yet since your important contention is that I propose forced transfers, I'll note for the record that the one person who is perhaps closest to the issue - in that he is Muslim, but more importantly in that he an objective eye - gainsays your stand on the matter:

    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1712849

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    I gave you the source. Abraham Katsh's book. Look at pages 50-73, for the deep influences in the Ivies of the Hebrew language and Bible.

    Have you visited the campuses or looked at the seals of Yale, Columbia etc? Or the Library of Congress in D.C? Go to those places; especially look around at the beautiful fresco-like images on the walls and ceilings and you'll get an idea.

    The GW letter to the synagogue in RI and the Adams letter I'm sure you can google, but they are treated in depth in Katsh's book. Also look at how Iffen expounded on the Prophet Michah's words with the precise Biblical reference.

    Here is the Yale Seal:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=The+Yale+Seal&espv=2&biw=1229&bih=679&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwils7628KHRAhWm64MKHScUDyYQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=aqN7Fh5aNUY7qM%3A

     

    It reads : Urim ve Timum in Hebrew האורים והתומים, under the Latin Lux et Veritas.

    Look at the Columbia seal, it has G'd written in Hebrew at the top:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Columbia+University+seal&espv=2&biw=1229&bih=679&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi34qqN8qHRAhWL64MKHcREAZUQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=h4XA-1BHO44ttM%3A

     

    The Library of Congress will provide a wealth of information if you care to delve into it. I should also perhaps refer you to the excellent Kabbalah Centre in DC, which will offer more information than can be digested in a mere post .....:-)

    I gave you the source. Abraham Katsh’s book. Look at pages 50-73, for the deep influences in the Ivies of the Hebrew language and Bible

    Thanks for the page references, Sam. I just finished reading them and just wanted to follow up on the two quotes I highlighted previously:

    1. Many of the Founding Fathers were trained Hebrew scholars, went to the elite schools of this country – which, to this day, preserve their mottos in Biblical Hebrew – and gave their commencement speeches in Hebrew.

    2. It was once contemplated that the Constitution be written in Hebrew.

    With regard to your first quote, when you wrote this I was expecting to read about how some of the key Founding Fathers – i.e., John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and George Washington – were trained Hebrew scholars.

    Unless I missed it, this is the closest I could find in your source:

    Many of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence, as graduates of colonial colleges, possessed at least a basic knowledge of Hebrew. – p. 55

    While not quite reaching the level of “trained scolars,” the author also did not bother to provide any examples of which Signers of the DI possessed this basic knowledge of Hebrew.

    With regard to your second quote, here’s what I read:

    At the time of the American Revolution, the interest in and knowledge of Hebrew in the colonies was so widespread as to allow the circulation of the story that “certain members of congress proposed that the use of English be formally prohibited in the United States, and Hebrew substituted for it.” Whether or not there is any basis of fact for the story, it is plausible that in their patriotic zeal some people were eager to replace the tongue of the British with one which they regarded as their spiritual language; but the essential thing is that the people of that period considered the rumor likely enough to circulate it. – p. 70

    Once the full context is provided, it is clear how seriously this proposal to write the Constitution in Hebrew was being contemplated.

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    First, were you aware of any of this prior to my post? Art e.g. had no idea that the 1st design for the official seal was a rendering of the Exodus which he called a lie, and therefore the FFs, liars.

    Trained Hebrew scholars - not all of them certainly, but a significant number were, up to the level where they could translate long Biblical passages from Latin to Hebrew. Harvard, Yale, College of New Jersey (later Princeton- educated James Madison), King's College (later Columbia), College of William and Mary (educated Jefferson), Dartmouth, Rutgers were the alma maters of a significant number of not only the FFs but also the larger group of highly influential politicians. Most of them had a working knowledge of Hebrew.

    But we are merely scratching the surface, viewing the most visible things at this point. Should one be really interested in this pursuing this subject, one would require long hours of labour at the Library of Congress and the Kabbala Centre; the Declaration, The whole meaning of Liberty (וַיִּקְרָא or Leviticus 25:10) , the many original laws and indeed the methodology of coming up with appropriate and consistent laws will open up an understanding which perhaps only a few know and understand explicitly. Concepts that the FFs understood weren't for mass consumption, rather for the implicit benefit of the masses.

    I am afraid that is all I am able to say for the moment.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @RobinG
    "Before the Zionist madmen came along, Palestine was sparsely populated and underdeveloped backwater whose population – Jewish and non Jewish – lived on the edge of starvation."

    OOPS! Gabriel heads it into his own goal.... completely discrediting everything he has to say about anything.... Zio-Troll down, out, and barred from relevance...

    This link is for the photos of Jaffa, but the article may also be interesting-
    http://www.anarkismo.net/article/12296
    Jaffa was the largest city in historic Palestine during the years of the British mandate, with a population of more than 80,000 Palestinians in addition to the 40,000 persons living in the towns and villages in its immediate vicinity.

    Ummm, “the British Mandate” is after the “Zionist madmen” turned up. Try reading your own link, or thinking. Then you can read about the history of Jaffa, which is pretty grim.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa#Ottoman_period

    “American missionary Ellen Clare Miller, visiting Jaffa in 1867, reported that the town had a population of “about 5000, 1000 of these being Christians, 800 Jews and the rest Moslems”.

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  • @geokat62

    It is certainly not ‘The guy who’s advocating the transfer of 1.8M people”, but one who is calling to explore voluntary swaps with fair compensation. It is the fellow who also remarked
     
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the "voluntary and fair" part applied to the WB and according to your proposed solution Gaza should be Egypt's problem? In my eyes, this is just another form of population transfer, notwithstanding the fact that you are reluctant to present it as such.

    unable to offer why extremely small numbers of non-white immigration to Canada causes you to invoke the Rurik gambit, unable to explain the meaning of infinite immigration etc, unable to prove that your phenotype is about to be lost forever, I am left to wonder what alarm bells plague your moments of private contemplation?
     
    Forget about Canada for a moment. Let's talk about your beloved USA. What do you make of this headline:

    The nation’s demographics are on a clear trajectory: White people are dying faster than they are being born, which means they are on target to become a minority in the United States in 30 years.

    http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/6/25/whites-on-target-to-become-a-us-minority.html
     
    Does this not represent alarm bells for you? If not, why not?

    Now, let's look at Canada. Here are the latest projections:

    A massive demographic change is taking place that could alter Canada's economic, political and education systems and exacerbate the divide between rural and urban communities.

    By 2031, one in three Canadians will belong to a visible minority. One in four will be foreign-born, the highest proportion since the end of the last wave of mass immigration that began around 1910, Statscan said in a release Tuesday.

    Never before have those who identify themselves as racial minorities seen their ranks grow at such a pace, sparking a debate about how Canada itself might change over the next 20 years. Some argue it won't change much at all, that new immigrants will, like their predecessors, adapt to the established cultural norms. Others say the process might not be so smooth, that there may be growing pains to overcome as groups with very different cultural practices brush up against one another.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/the-changing-face-of-canada-booming-minority-populations-by-2031/article569072/
     
    The Franfurt School would be very pleased with these outcomes, to be sure.

    ... how do they then reconcile that with their expedient abandonment of said principles ?
     
    You seem to think that Diogenes is the only figure in the panoply of Greek thinkers. He's not. There are dozens and dozens. And as you know there are many that rank much higher than Diogenes in terms of their contributions to western human thought (e.g., Plato, Aristotle, Archimedes, Euclid, Heraclitus, Democratus, Hippocrates, Sophocles, Euripedis, Aristophanes, Aeschylus, etc. etc. etc.) I simply cited Diogenes in the context of one of our discussions to explain why I was urging you to be consistent with your reasoning, remember?... either rule #1 (end jusify the means) or rule #2 (adherance to morality). And Diogenes best described the importance of being consistently honest (hence the lantern in daylight looking for an honest man). That was it. I didn't declare that Diogenes was my northern star when it came to my views on immigration. No, my northern star for that is the Frankfurt School.

    Speaking of the FS, you've never shared your views on this group, Sam. Do you agree they were the inspiration for the New Left via their propagation of cultural Marxism? What do you make of their goals - undermining the foundations of Western culture by attacking the key institutions including the family, by promoting multiculturalism, diversity, etc. - so that fascism never takes root in America to prevent another holocaust. Do you think it was a noble project? Or do you condemn their efforts given the visible damage it has done to Western societies?

    I guess the fundamental question I'm driving at is this: are you a defender of Western culture - i.e., do you count yourself among those who think it is important to ensure Western societies take the necessary steps to retain their western character before it's too late - or not?

    Geokat. You make the fundamental error of assuming that Jews and Israel are judged by the same rules and standards as other people and other countries. They’re not. It’s like watching a foot ball game where one team abides by accepted rules of the game, while the other team modifies the rules to emerge the victor. Except for brief periods of history, it’s always been that way.

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    • Replies: @geokat62

    Geokat. You make the fundamental error of assuming that Jews and Israel are judged by the same rules and standards as other people and other countries.
     
    Guilty as charged, CP.
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  • @RobinG
    Happy New Year, Art!

    Very good video here-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvImYONSuPo
    India's World - Is Syrian civil war coming to an end

    [I.E. - Is U.S. hegemony coming to an end? And it's NOT a civil war.)

    Good video. Syria isn’t a Civil War, it’s a US/Israeli/Saudi controlled “regime change” operation.

    Suggested New Years resolution for Donald Trump: Shut down the CIA and 1) save money 2) improve America’s foreign relations.

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  • @RobinG
    Happy New Year, Art!

    Very good video here-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvImYONSuPo
    India's World - Is Syrian civil war coming to an end

    [I.E. - Is U.S. hegemony coming to an end? And it's NOT a civil war.)

    Hi Robin —- Happy New Year to You (:

    That is a great video – truthful – it says that Syria was not a civil war but a war of aggression by US Saudi et al.

    It is a good day — the world is coming around to finding it hind feet and standing up against the (Zionist) powers that make war.

    Peace — Art

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  • @Art
    The Pilgrims arriving on these shores were imbued with a sense of destiny openly proclaimed as inspirations drawn from Biblical motifs of Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh

    What crap - yada - yada - yada!

    My oh my - those stupid Pilgrims could not spill water out of a boot without the Jews.

    First - the "Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh" is a total lie. It never happened. The pseudo Jew god of the universe did NOT part the waters for the Jews - he did not kill the first born of the Egyptian people.

    Again the Jew distracts us, miss directs us from the bloody ME doings of today with inconsequential yada.

    Our concerns are not Pilgrims or ancient Egypt - our problems are the Jews of today.

    Peace --- Art

    [First – the “Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh” is a total lie. ]

    Don’t yelp in pain Art, but the 1stt official design for the seal of the United States recommended by Benjamin Franklin, John Adams and Jefferson in 1776 is a rendering of the Jews crossing the Red Sea. The motto around the seal reads: “Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God.

    The following link has Jefferson’s prescribed seal which did not finally make it. It also speaks volumes on Jefferson’s relationship with the institution of slavery.

    http://mentalfloss.com/article/30912/rejected-designs-great-seal-united-states

    Were the FF’s lying?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    Many of the Founding Fathers were trained Hebrew scholars, went to the elite schools of this country – which, to this day, preserve their mottos in Biblical Hebrew – and gave their commencement speeches in Hebrew.

    It was once contemplated that the Constitution be written in Hebrew.
     

    I've never seen anyone present this hypothesis before, Sam. Care to provide sources?

    I did a quick search using keywords "founding fathers were trained Hebrew scholars" and nothing very relevant came back except for this info:

    The Classical Education of the Founding Fathers

    https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/classical-education-founding-fathers/

    Here's a very lengthy excerpt:


    Thomas Jefferson received early training in Latin, Greek, and French from Reverend William Douglas, a Scottish clergyman. At the age of fourteen, Jefferson’s father died, and, at the express wish of his father, he continued his education with the Reverend James Maury, who ran a classical academy. After leaving Douglas’ academy, Jefferson attended the College of William and Mary, where his classical education continued along with his study of law.

    When Alexander Hamilton entered King’s College (now Columbia University) in 1773, he was expected to have a mastery of Greek and Latin grammar, be able to read three orations from Cicero and Virgil’s Aeneid in the original Latin, and be able to translate the first ten chapters of the Gospel of John from Greek into Latin.

    When James Madison applied at the College of New Jersey (now Princeton), he was expected to be able to “write Latin prose, translate Virgil, Cicero, and the Greek gospels and [to have] a commensurate knowledge of Latin and Greek grammar.” Even before he entered, however, he had already read Vergil, Horace, Justinian, Nepos, Caesar, Tacitus, Lucretius, Eutropius, Phaedrus, Herodotus, Thucydides, and Plato.

    Other key figures in the American founding received similar educations, including John Taylor of Caroline, John Tyler, and George Rogers Clark, all of whom studied classics under the Scottish preacher Donald Robertson.

    It is interesting to note that the study of Latin and Greek, which is what the term “classical education” originally implied, was not something they learned in college, but something they were expected to know before they got there.

    These men not only had to read classical authors in school, they read them in adult life for pleasure and profit. Hamilton apparently had a penchant for copying Plutarch (the Roman) and Demosthenes (the Greek). John Adams would copy long passages of Sallust, the Roman historian. If you look around on the Internet a little, you can find a manuscript of twelve lines for sale, in the original language, from the Greek historian Herodotus, in Adam’s hand. It will cost you a mere $6,300.

    The founders knew these writers and quoted them prolifically. Their letters, in particular, display a wide familiarity with classical authors. The correspondence between educated men of the time was commonly sprinkled with classical quotations, usually in the original Latin or Greek. It was not only prevalent, but apparently sometimes annoying to the recipient. Jefferson used so many Greek quotes in his letters to Adams (who liked Latin better than Greek) that, on one occasion, Adams complained to him about it.
     

    As you can see, a lot of references to Latin and Greek, but nothing to Hebrew.

    To be fair, there is a solitary reference to Hebrew:


    Students were also expected in these early years, according to the Harvard College Laws, to be able to translate the Old and New Testaments from the original Greek and Hebrew into Latin.
     
    Look forward to seeing your sources.

    I gave you the source. Abraham Katsh’s book. Look at pages 50-73, for the deep influences in the Ivies of the Hebrew language and Bible.

    Have you visited the campuses or looked at the seals of Yale, Columbia etc? Or the Library of Congress in D.C? Go to those places; especially look around at the beautiful fresco-like images on the walls and ceilings and you’ll get an idea.

    The GW letter to the synagogue in RI and the Adams letter I’m sure you can google, but they are treated in depth in Katsh’s book. Also look at how Iffen expounded on the Prophet Michah’s words with the precise Biblical reference.

    Here is the Yale Seal:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=The+Yale+Seal&espv=2&biw=1229&bih=679&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwils7628KHRAhWm64MKHScUDyYQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=aqN7Fh5aNUY7qM%3A

    It reads : Urim ve Timum in Hebrew האורים והתומים, under the Latin Lux et Veritas.

    Look at the Columbia seal, it has G’d written in Hebrew at the top:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Columbia+University+seal&espv=2&biw=1229&bih=679&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi34qqN8qHRAhWL64MKHcREAZUQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=h4XA-1BHO44ttM%3A

    The Library of Congress will provide a wealth of information if you care to delve into it. I should also perhaps refer you to the excellent Kabbalah Centre in DC, which will offer more information than can be digested in a mere post …..:-)

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    I gave you the source. Abraham Katsh’s book. Look at pages 50-73, for the deep influences in the Ivies of the Hebrew language and Bible
     
    Thanks for the page references, Sam. I just finished reading them and just wanted to follow up on the two quotes I highlighted previously:

    1. Many of the Founding Fathers were trained Hebrew scholars, went to the elite schools of this country – which, to this day, preserve their mottos in Biblical Hebrew – and gave their commencement speeches in Hebrew.

    2. It was once contemplated that the Constitution be written in Hebrew.
     

    With regard to your first quote, when you wrote this I was expecting to read about how some of the key Founding Fathers - i.e., John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and George Washington - were trained Hebrew scholars.

    Unless I missed it, this is the closest I could find in your source:


    Many of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence, as graduates of colonial colleges, possessed at least a basic knowledge of Hebrew. - p. 55
     
    While not quite reaching the level of "trained scolars," the author also did not bother to provide any examples of which Signers of the DI possessed this basic knowledge of Hebrew.

    With regard to your second quote, here's what I read:


    At the time of the American Revolution, the interest in and knowledge of Hebrew in the colonies was so widespread as to allow the circulation of the story that "certain members of congress proposed that the use of English be formally prohibited in the United States, and Hebrew substituted for it." Whether or not there is any basis of fact for the story, it is plausible that in their patriotic zeal some people were eager to replace the tongue of the British with one which they regarded as their spiritual language; but the essential thing is that the people of that period considered the rumor likely enough to circulate it. - p. 70
     
    Once the full context is provided, it is clear how seriously this proposal to write the Constitution in Hebrew was being contemplated.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art
    Moshe going to eat the extra pork? He’s not a Good Jew!

    Moshe has bone too pic with you – mensch kosher Jew that he is – he had to separate the pork out of his beans yesterday – he is not happy.

    He also is major pissed, about you US Jews stopping the Boeing deal with Iran. He cannot figure out why you are doing other than displaying pure political power over America. You just do not care who you hurt – do you. There is no military value to this – only the maintenance of raw political power over America’s culture.

    How great is your fear, hate, loathing, and arrogance?

    Peace --- Art

    Happy New Year, Art!

    Very good video here-

    India’s World – Is Syrian civil war coming to an end

    [I.E. – Is U.S. hegemony coming to an end? And it’s NOT a civil war.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    Hi Robin ---- Happy New Year to You (:

    That is a great video - truthful - it says that Syria was not a civil war but a war of aggression by US Saudi et al.

    It is a good day -- the world is coming around to finding it hind feet and standing up against the (Zionist) powers that make war.

    Peace --- Art
    , @Miro23
    Good video. Syria isn't a Civil War, it's a US/Israeli/Saudi controlled "regime change" operation.

    Suggested New Years resolution for Donald Trump: Shut down the CIA and 1) save money 2) improve America's foreign relations.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62
    1. Western culture, is a term used very broadly to refer to a heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, belief systems, political systems, and specific artifacts and technologies that have some origin or association with Europe. The term is applied to European countries and countries whose history is strongly marked by European immigration, colonisation, and influence, such as the continents of the Americas and Australasia, whose current demographic majority is of European ethnicity, and is not restricted to the continent of Europe.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

    Not sure why you think it needs to remain static?

    2. Yes, I love the U.S. and I don’t think anything alarming is really going on. 3. As I have always maintained numbers are of the essence, and the numbers do not cause me any alarm. Whites growing less than replacement rate will likely reverse. I honestly don’t see a cause for alarm.

    Got it. There is no cause for alarm.

    4. All the Greek chappies you named there would’ve likely told you things similar to what Diogenes might have, although I am not sure about Euclid and Aristophanes.
     
    From where did you pull this response, Sam? I managed to find this response to the Quora question "Was there racism in Ancient Greece?" provided by a modern Greek Aristoteles Oikonomou (ancient historian, philosopher, etc):

    "The Ancient Greeks were not racist in terms of skin color or ethnic differences. They would not discriminate and segregate a man due to his origin, religion or culture, and were more accepting of foreigners. However, a lot of them were 'nationalists' (mostly Athenians), in the sense that they valued Hellenic culture as the best one over all the others. Only Greeks were allowed along with other people with very similar cultures (Rome, Macedon) to participate in their games or religious festivals."
    https://www.quora.com/Was-there-racism-in-ancient-Greece


    5. Have you watched Fawlty Towers?

    When you take a break from watching old episodes of FT, why don't you try reading an excellent collection of essays edited by William S. Lind, called “Political Correctness:” A Short History of an Ideology
    http://static.ow.ly/docs/Political%20Correctnes%20-%20A%20Short%20History%20of%20an%20Idealogy_9Nd.pdf

    Or you could quickly peruse the summary version, William Lind’s, The Origins of Political Correctness http://www.academia.org/the-origins-of-political-correctness/

    and then give us your views on the FS?

    6. British humour?

    Happy New Year to you too, Sam.

    I read the condensed version of PC. The ascription to Marxism is a tenuous one at best; Marx, whatever else one might think of him, was a brilliant and sincere intellectual; of course he had no sodding idea how a complex capitalist system should work, in addition to being a G’dless Marxist to boot :-) .

    The anti-PC movement which I reckoned somewhat overdue until the recent election of the Donald, ought to by itself, as is, make quick work of PC, finds it further necessary to tar the snowflakes and homosexuals with the leperous reputation of Marxism. I call that an overkill. Even as a strategic device it brings a bludgeon to swat a fly. I have a young cousin in one of the Ivies who routinely goes around running his mouth off at the PC events and gatherings with little consequence beyond shrugging off some screeching snowflakes, fruits, and their assorted helpers. He’s been hauled to the headmaster’s office [in a manner of speaking], as it turned out mainly for appearance’s sake, and privately led to believe that the administrators were willing to connive if not actively encourage his behaviour. He’s been attracting followers.

    So I sense that parents and teachers are perhaps watching all this with a measure of amusement, not alarm.

    I also sense PC is on the way out and all these attempts to link it somehow, to some obscure “school” is just another academic masturbatory exercise. However I do hope the exit of PC does not swing the pendulum to the opposite extreme where gratuitous slurs become the common standard.

    There is something to be said for everyday politeness.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    ... all these attempts to link it somehow, to some obscure “school” is just another academic masturbatory exercise.
     
    So, let me see if I can properly summarize your views about the two key issues I've raised:

    1. Immigration trends - don't sweat them, they will not have a dramatic impact on the makeup of western societies

    2. Franfurt School influences - don't sweat it, the pendulum is about to swing in the other direction.

    Do I have that about right?

    So the message from Sam is, "don't worry, be happy!"
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Moshe going to eat the extra pork ? He's not a Good Jew!

    Moshe going to eat the extra pork? He’s not a Good Jew!

    Moshe has bone too pic with you – mensch kosher Jew that he is – he had to separate the pork out of his beans yesterday – he is not happy.

    He also is major pissed, about you US Jews stopping the Boeing deal with Iran. He cannot figure out why you are doing other than displaying pure political power over America. You just do not care who you hurt – do you. There is no military value to this – only the maintenance of raw political power over America’s culture.

    How great is your fear, hate, loathing, and arrogance?

    Peace — Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Happy New Year, Art!

    Very good video here-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvImYONSuPo
    India's World - Is Syrian civil war coming to an end

    [I.E. - Is U.S. hegemony coming to an end? And it's NOT a civil war.)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama


    This is nonsense.

    Y’know, you’d do better by analyzing meaningful socioeconomic and geopolitical phenomena, and ignoring the fluff. And this, what you’re concentrating on, is fluff.

     

    There is nonsense that others consider you to be the source of. In fact holding your opponent's viewpoint as nonsense, is a common enough sentiment in debating forums. Some nonsense is better than other nonsense. You are offering your input in a discussion which while lends itself naturally to implications grounded in economics and policy are, precisely, therefore, impossible to extricate from the history which forged them; and that history is not open for arbitrary selection; of the point and time of its origin; ergo unsound, your depiction as fluff, the history of the Pilgrims in context.

    The Pilgrims arriving on these shores were imbued with a sense of destiny openly proclaimed as inspirations drawn from Biblical motifs of Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh (see Abraham Katsh, The Biblical Heritage of American Democracy)

    Many of the Founding Fathers were trained Hebrew scholars, went to the elite schools of this country - which, to this day, preserve their mottos in Biblical Hebrew - and gave their commencement speeches in Hebrew.

    It was once contemplated that the Constitution be written in Hebrew.

    Take it from George Washingon who wrote invoking the Prophet Micah, to the members of a Rhode Island synagogue:

    "May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in the land continue to merit and enjoy the goodwill of the other inhabitants. While everyone shall sit safely under his own vine and fig-tree and there shall be none to make him afraid."
     
    Or take John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van Der Kemp, 16 February 1809:

    "... I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations. If I were an atheist of another sect... I should still believe that chance had ordered the Jews to preserve and propagate for all mankind the doctrine of a supreme, intelligent, wise almighty sovereign of the universe, which I believe to be the great essential principle of all morality, and consequently of all civilization… They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this earth. The Romans and their Empire were but a bauble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three quarters of the globe and have influenced the affairs of mankind more, and more happily than any other nation, ancient or modern." As quoted in: Allan Gould, What Did They Think of the Jews, (New Jersey, 1997), pp. 71-72.
     
    So Hebrew, or more precisely the Bible in Hebrew is very much in the DNA of this great nation, and may it always be so.

    There, enough ordinance for some here to start nuclear fission! :-)

    The Pilgrims arriving on these shores were imbued with a sense of destiny openly proclaimed as inspirations drawn from Biblical motifs of Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh

    What crap – yada – yada – yada!

    My oh my – those stupid Pilgrims could not spill water out of a boot without the Jews.

    First – the “Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh” is a total lie. It never happened. The pseudo Jew god of the universe did NOT part the waters for the Jews – he did not kill the first born of the Egyptian people.

    Again the Jew distracts us, miss directs us from the bloody ME doings of today with inconsequential yada.

    Our concerns are not Pilgrims or ancient Egypt – our problems are the Jews of today.

    Peace — Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    [First – the “Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh” is a total lie. ]

    Don't yelp in pain Art, but the 1stt official design for the seal of the United States recommended by Benjamin Franklin, John Adams and Jefferson in 1776 is a rendering of the Jews crossing the Red Sea. The motto around the seal reads: "Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God."

    The following link has Jefferson's prescribed seal which did not finally make it. It also speaks volumes on Jefferson's relationship with the institution of slavery.

    http://mentalfloss.com/article/30912/rejected-designs-great-seal-united-states


    Were the FF's lying?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama


    This is nonsense.

    Y’know, you’d do better by analyzing meaningful socioeconomic and geopolitical phenomena, and ignoring the fluff. And this, what you’re concentrating on, is fluff.

     

    There is nonsense that others consider you to be the source of. In fact holding your opponent's viewpoint as nonsense, is a common enough sentiment in debating forums. Some nonsense is better than other nonsense. You are offering your input in a discussion which while lends itself naturally to implications grounded in economics and policy are, precisely, therefore, impossible to extricate from the history which forged them; and that history is not open for arbitrary selection; of the point and time of its origin; ergo unsound, your depiction as fluff, the history of the Pilgrims in context.

    The Pilgrims arriving on these shores were imbued with a sense of destiny openly proclaimed as inspirations drawn from Biblical motifs of Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh (see Abraham Katsh, The Biblical Heritage of American Democracy)

    Many of the Founding Fathers were trained Hebrew scholars, went to the elite schools of this country - which, to this day, preserve their mottos in Biblical Hebrew - and gave their commencement speeches in Hebrew.

    It was once contemplated that the Constitution be written in Hebrew.

    Take it from George Washingon who wrote invoking the Prophet Micah, to the members of a Rhode Island synagogue:

    "May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in the land continue to merit and enjoy the goodwill of the other inhabitants. While everyone shall sit safely under his own vine and fig-tree and there shall be none to make him afraid."
     
    Or take John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van Der Kemp, 16 February 1809:

    "... I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations. If I were an atheist of another sect... I should still believe that chance had ordered the Jews to preserve and propagate for all mankind the doctrine of a supreme, intelligent, wise almighty sovereign of the universe, which I believe to be the great essential principle of all morality, and consequently of all civilization… They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this earth. The Romans and their Empire were but a bauble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three quarters of the globe and have influenced the affairs of mankind more, and more happily than any other nation, ancient or modern." As quoted in: Allan Gould, What Did They Think of the Jews, (New Jersey, 1997), pp. 71-72.
     
    So Hebrew, or more precisely the Bible in Hebrew is very much in the DNA of this great nation, and may it always be so.

    There, enough ordinance for some here to start nuclear fission! :-)

    Many of the Founding Fathers were trained Hebrew scholars, went to the elite schools of this country – which, to this day, preserve their mottos in Biblical Hebrew – and gave their commencement speeches in Hebrew.

    It was once contemplated that the Constitution be written in Hebrew.

    I’ve never seen anyone present this hypothesis before, Sam. Care to provide sources?

    I did a quick search using keywords “founding fathers were trained Hebrew scholars” and nothing very relevant came back except for this info:

    The Classical Education of the Founding Fathers

    https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/classical-education-founding-fathers/

    Here’s a very lengthy excerpt:

    Thomas Jefferson received early training in Latin, Greek, and French from Reverend William Douglas, a Scottish clergyman. At the age of fourteen, Jefferson’s father died, and, at the express wish of his father, he continued his education with the Reverend James Maury, who ran a classical academy. After leaving Douglas’ academy, Jefferson attended the College of William and Mary, where his classical education continued along with his study of law.

    When Alexander Hamilton entered King’s College (now Columbia University) in 1773, he was expected to have a mastery of Greek and Latin grammar, be able to read three orations from Cicero and Virgil’s Aeneid in the original Latin, and be able to translate the first ten chapters of the Gospel of John from Greek into Latin.

    When James Madison applied at the College of New Jersey (now Princeton), he was expected to be able to “write Latin prose, translate Virgil, Cicero, and the Greek gospels and [to have] a commensurate knowledge of Latin and Greek grammar.” Even before he entered, however, he had already read Vergil, Horace, Justinian, Nepos, Caesar, Tacitus, Lucretius, Eutropius, Phaedrus, Herodotus, Thucydides, and Plato.

    Other key figures in the American founding received similar educations, including John Taylor of Caroline, John Tyler, and George Rogers Clark, all of whom studied classics under the Scottish preacher Donald Robertson.

    It is interesting to note that the study of Latin and Greek, which is what the term “classical education” originally implied, was not something they learned in college, but something they were expected to know before they got there.

    These men not only had to read classical authors in school, they read them in adult life for pleasure and profit. Hamilton apparently had a penchant for copying Plutarch (the Roman) and Demosthenes (the Greek). John Adams would copy long passages of Sallust, the Roman historian. If you look around on the Internet a little, you can find a manuscript of twelve lines for sale, in the original language, from the Greek historian Herodotus, in Adam’s hand. It will cost you a mere $6,300.

    The founders knew these writers and quoted them prolifically. Their letters, in particular, display a wide familiarity with classical authors. The correspondence between educated men of the time was commonly sprinkled with classical quotations, usually in the original Latin or Greek. It was not only prevalent, but apparently sometimes annoying to the recipient. Jefferson used so many Greek quotes in his letters to Adams (who liked Latin better than Greek) that, on one occasion, Adams complained to him about it.

    As you can see, a lot of references to Latin and Greek, but nothing to Hebrew.

    To be fair, there is a solitary reference to Hebrew:

    Students were also expected in these early years, according to the Harvard College Laws, to be able to translate the Old and New Testaments from the original Greek and Hebrew into Latin.

    Look forward to seeing your sources.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I gave you the source. Abraham Katsh's book. Look at pages 50-73, for the deep influences in the Ivies of the Hebrew language and Bible.

    Have you visited the campuses or looked at the seals of Yale, Columbia etc? Or the Library of Congress in D.C? Go to those places; especially look around at the beautiful fresco-like images on the walls and ceilings and you'll get an idea.

    The GW letter to the synagogue in RI and the Adams letter I'm sure you can google, but they are treated in depth in Katsh's book. Also look at how Iffen expounded on the Prophet Michah's words with the precise Biblical reference.

    Here is the Yale Seal:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=The+Yale+Seal&espv=2&biw=1229&bih=679&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwils7628KHRAhWm64MKHScUDyYQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=aqN7Fh5aNUY7qM%3A

     

    It reads : Urim ve Timum in Hebrew האורים והתומים, under the Latin Lux et Veritas.

    Look at the Columbia seal, it has G'd written in Hebrew at the top:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Columbia+University+seal&espv=2&biw=1229&bih=679&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi34qqN8qHRAhWL64MKHcREAZUQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=h4XA-1BHO44ttM%3A

     

    The Library of Congress will provide a wealth of information if you care to delve into it. I should also perhaps refer you to the excellent Kabbalah Centre in DC, which will offer more information than can be digested in a mere post .....:-)
    , @Alden
    None of the founders went to Harvard. It was founded as a Protestant seminary for men who wished to become clergy. There was no reason for anyone else to attend Harvard. Some grads who couldn't get preacher jobs became teachers.

    As far as I know the only founder who attended college was Hamilton, Kings college later Columbia Franklin did help found University of Pennsylvania.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama


    This is nonsense.

    Y’know, you’d do better by analyzing meaningful socioeconomic and geopolitical phenomena, and ignoring the fluff. And this, what you’re concentrating on, is fluff.

     

    There is nonsense that others consider you to be the source of. In fact holding your opponent's viewpoint as nonsense, is a common enough sentiment in debating forums. Some nonsense is better than other nonsense. You are offering your input in a discussion which while lends itself naturally to implications grounded in economics and policy are, precisely, therefore, impossible to extricate from the history which forged them; and that history is not open for arbitrary selection; of the point and time of its origin; ergo unsound, your depiction as fluff, the history of the Pilgrims in context.

    The Pilgrims arriving on these shores were imbued with a sense of destiny openly proclaimed as inspirations drawn from Biblical motifs of Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh (see Abraham Katsh, The Biblical Heritage of American Democracy)

    Many of the Founding Fathers were trained Hebrew scholars, went to the elite schools of this country - which, to this day, preserve their mottos in Biblical Hebrew - and gave their commencement speeches in Hebrew.

    It was once contemplated that the Constitution be written in Hebrew.

    Take it from George Washingon who wrote invoking the Prophet Micah, to the members of a Rhode Island synagogue:

    "May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in the land continue to merit and enjoy the goodwill of the other inhabitants. While everyone shall sit safely under his own vine and fig-tree and there shall be none to make him afraid."
     
    Or take John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van Der Kemp, 16 February 1809:

    "... I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations. If I were an atheist of another sect... I should still believe that chance had ordered the Jews to preserve and propagate for all mankind the doctrine of a supreme, intelligent, wise almighty sovereign of the universe, which I believe to be the great essential principle of all morality, and consequently of all civilization… They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this earth. The Romans and their Empire were but a bauble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three quarters of the globe and have influenced the affairs of mankind more, and more happily than any other nation, ancient or modern." As quoted in: Allan Gould, What Did They Think of the Jews, (New Jersey, 1997), pp. 71-72.
     
    So Hebrew, or more precisely the Bible in Hebrew is very much in the DNA of this great nation, and may it always be so.

    There, enough ordinance for some here to start nuclear fission! :-)

    Despite it being GW, I have to pull some text from Dr. Thompson’s recent post and make a correction.

    … the King James version, which is the real bible for most Anglo-Saxons, on the perfectly reasonable grounds that Jesus spoke English that way, as any decent person should.

    Micah 4:4 King James Version

    But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama


    This is nonsense.

    Y’know, you’d do better by analyzing meaningful socioeconomic and geopolitical phenomena, and ignoring the fluff. And this, what you’re concentrating on, is fluff.

     

    There is nonsense that others consider you to be the source of. In fact holding your opponent's viewpoint as nonsense, is a common enough sentiment in debating forums. Some nonsense is better than other nonsense. You are offering your input in a discussion which while lends itself naturally to implications grounded in economics and policy are, precisely, therefore, impossible to extricate from the history which forged them; and that history is not open for arbitrary selection; of the point and time of its origin; ergo unsound, your depiction as fluff, the history of the Pilgrims in context.

    The Pilgrims arriving on these shores were imbued with a sense of destiny openly proclaimed as inspirations drawn from Biblical motifs of Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh (see Abraham Katsh, The Biblical Heritage of American Democracy)

    Many of the Founding Fathers were trained Hebrew scholars, went to the elite schools of this country - which, to this day, preserve their mottos in Biblical Hebrew - and gave their commencement speeches in Hebrew.

    It was once contemplated that the Constitution be written in Hebrew.

    Take it from George Washingon who wrote invoking the Prophet Micah, to the members of a Rhode Island synagogue:

    "May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in the land continue to merit and enjoy the goodwill of the other inhabitants. While everyone shall sit safely under his own vine and fig-tree and there shall be none to make him afraid."
     
    Or take John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van Der Kemp, 16 February 1809:

    "... I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations. If I were an atheist of another sect... I should still believe that chance had ordered the Jews to preserve and propagate for all mankind the doctrine of a supreme, intelligent, wise almighty sovereign of the universe, which I believe to be the great essential principle of all morality, and consequently of all civilization… They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this earth. The Romans and their Empire were but a bauble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three quarters of the globe and have influenced the affairs of mankind more, and more happily than any other nation, ancient or modern." As quoted in: Allan Gould, What Did They Think of the Jews, (New Jersey, 1997), pp. 71-72.
     
    So Hebrew, or more precisely the Bible in Hebrew is very much in the DNA of this great nation, and may it always be so.

    There, enough ordinance for some here to start nuclear fission! :-)

    The Pilgrims arriving on these shores were imbued with a sense of destiny openly proclaimed as inspirations drawn from Biblical motifs of Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh

    This is fluff, which, even if true, no one cares about. However, I was talking about different fluff, the “RETURNING to their ancestral homeland” fluff.

    Like I said: cheap propaganda for motivating the stupidest 10% (if that many) of the cannon fodder…

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  • @Sam Shama
    Well said.

    Happy New Year my friend!

    btw I love listening to Dwight.

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  • @iffen
    I am a staunch defender of Western Culture; that is other than those times when I am not.

    The only time I feel the pain
    Is in the sunshine or the rain
    And I don't feel no hurt at all
    Unless you count when teardrops fall
    I tell the truth 'cept when I lie
    And it only hurts me when I cry
    --Dwight Yoakam

    “It is always the best policy to speak the truth, unless, of course, you are an exceptionally good liar.”
    ―Jerome K. Jerome

    Well said.

    Happy New Year my friend!

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    btw I love listening to Dwight.
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  • @Mao Cheng Ji

    The Pilgrims et al, did NOT see themselves as RETURNING to their ancestral homeland.

     

    This is nonsense. Marginal propaganda items designed to motivate the 10% of compete idiots have nothing to do with the substance of events.

    Y'know, you'd do better by analyzing meaningful socioeconomic and geopolitical phenomena, and ignoring the fluff. And this, what you're concentrating on, is fluff.

    This is nonsense.

    Y’know, you’d do better by analyzing meaningful socioeconomic and geopolitical phenomena, and ignoring the fluff. And this, what you’re concentrating on, is fluff.

    There is nonsense that others consider you to be the source of. In fact holding your opponent’s viewpoint as nonsense, is a common enough sentiment in debating forums. Some nonsense is better than other nonsense. You are offering your input in a discussion which while lends itself naturally to implications grounded in economics and policy are, precisely, therefore, impossible to extricate from the history which forged them; and that history is not open for arbitrary selection; of the point and time of its origin; ergo unsound, your depiction as fluff, the history of the Pilgrims in context.

    The Pilgrims arriving on these shores were imbued with a sense of destiny openly proclaimed as inspirations drawn from Biblical motifs of Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh (see Abraham Katsh, The Biblical Heritage of American Democracy)

    Many of the Founding Fathers were trained Hebrew scholars, went to the elite schools of this country – which, to this day, preserve their mottos in Biblical Hebrew – and gave their commencement speeches in Hebrew.

    It was once contemplated that the Constitution be written in Hebrew.

    Take it from George Washingon who wrote invoking the Prophet Micah, to the members of a Rhode Island synagogue:

    “May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in the land continue to merit and enjoy the goodwill of the other inhabitants. While everyone shall sit safely under his own vine and fig-tree and there shall be none to make him afraid.”

    Or take John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van Der Kemp, 16 February 1809:

    “… I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations. If I were an atheist of another sect… I should still believe that chance had ordered the Jews to preserve and propagate for all mankind the doctrine of a supreme, intelligent, wise almighty sovereign of the universe, which I believe to be the great essential principle of all morality, and consequently of all civilization… They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this earth. The Romans and their Empire were but a bauble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three quarters of the globe and have influenced the affairs of mankind more, and more happily than any other nation, ancient or modern.” As quoted in: Allan Gould, What Did They Think of the Jews, (New Jersey, 1997), pp. 71-72.

    So Hebrew, or more precisely the Bible in Hebrew is very much in the DNA of this great nation, and may it always be so.

    There, enough ordinance for some here to start nuclear fission! :-)

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    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji

    The Pilgrims arriving on these shores were imbued with a sense of destiny openly proclaimed as inspirations drawn from Biblical motifs of Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh
     
    This is fluff, which, even if true, no one cares about. However, I was talking about different fluff, the "RETURNING to their ancestral homeland" fluff.

    Like I said: cheap propaganda for motivating the stupidest 10% (if that many) of the cannon fodder...
    , @iffen
    Despite it being GW, I have to pull some text from Dr. Thompson’s recent post and make a correction.

    … the King James version, which is the real bible for most Anglo-Saxons, on the perfectly reasonable grounds that Jesus spoke English that way, as any decent person should.
     

    Micah 4:4 King James Version

    But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

     

    , @geokat62

    Many of the Founding Fathers were trained Hebrew scholars, went to the elite schools of this country – which, to this day, preserve their mottos in Biblical Hebrew – and gave their commencement speeches in Hebrew.

    It was once contemplated that the Constitution be written in Hebrew.
     

    I've never seen anyone present this hypothesis before, Sam. Care to provide sources?

    I did a quick search using keywords "founding fathers were trained Hebrew scholars" and nothing very relevant came back except for this info:

    The Classical Education of the Founding Fathers

    https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/classical-education-founding-fathers/

    Here's a very lengthy excerpt:


    Thomas Jefferson received early training in Latin, Greek, and French from Reverend William Douglas, a Scottish clergyman. At the age of fourteen, Jefferson’s father died, and, at the express wish of his father, he continued his education with the Reverend James Maury, who ran a classical academy. After leaving Douglas’ academy, Jefferson attended the College of William and Mary, where his classical education continued along with his study of law.

    When Alexander Hamilton entered King’s College (now Columbia University) in 1773, he was expected to have a mastery of Greek and Latin grammar, be able to read three orations from Cicero and Virgil’s Aeneid in the original Latin, and be able to translate the first ten chapters of the Gospel of John from Greek into Latin.

    When James Madison applied at the College of New Jersey (now Princeton), he was expected to be able to “write Latin prose, translate Virgil, Cicero, and the Greek gospels and [to have] a commensurate knowledge of Latin and Greek grammar.” Even before he entered, however, he had already read Vergil, Horace, Justinian, Nepos, Caesar, Tacitus, Lucretius, Eutropius, Phaedrus, Herodotus, Thucydides, and Plato.

    Other key figures in the American founding received similar educations, including John Taylor of Caroline, John Tyler, and George Rogers Clark, all of whom studied classics under the Scottish preacher Donald Robertson.

    It is interesting to note that the study of Latin and Greek, which is what the term “classical education” originally implied, was not something they learned in college, but something they were expected to know before they got there.

    These men not only had to read classical authors in school, they read them in adult life for pleasure and profit. Hamilton apparently had a penchant for copying Plutarch (the Roman) and Demosthenes (the Greek). John Adams would copy long passages of Sallust, the Roman historian. If you look around on the Internet a little, you can find a manuscript of twelve lines for sale, in the original language, from the Greek historian Herodotus, in Adam’s hand. It will cost you a mere $6,300.

    The founders knew these writers and quoted them prolifically. Their letters, in particular, display a wide familiarity with classical authors. The correspondence between educated men of the time was commonly sprinkled with classical quotations, usually in the original Latin or Greek. It was not only prevalent, but apparently sometimes annoying to the recipient. Jefferson used so many Greek quotes in his letters to Adams (who liked Latin better than Greek) that, on one occasion, Adams complained to him about it.
     

    As you can see, a lot of references to Latin and Greek, but nothing to Hebrew.

    To be fair, there is a solitary reference to Hebrew:


    Students were also expected in these early years, according to the Harvard College Laws, to be able to translate the Old and New Testaments from the original Greek and Hebrew into Latin.
     
    Look forward to seeing your sources.
    , @Art
    The Pilgrims arriving on these shores were imbued with a sense of destiny openly proclaimed as inspirations drawn from Biblical motifs of Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh

    What crap - yada - yada - yada!

    My oh my - those stupid Pilgrims could not spill water out of a boot without the Jews.

    First - the "Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh" is a total lie. It never happened. The pseudo Jew god of the universe did NOT part the waters for the Jews - he did not kill the first born of the Egyptian people.

    Again the Jew distracts us, miss directs us from the bloody ME doings of today with inconsequential yada.

    Our concerns are not Pilgrims or ancient Egypt - our problems are the Jews of today.

    Peace --- Art
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  • @Sam Shama
    1. Define Western Culture and prove it has remained unchanged over the centuries.

    2. Yes, I love the U.S. and I don't think anything alarming is really going on. I happen to believe that Obama's planned intake of Syrian refugees is far too many and most likely the Donald will reverse this. I want smart and talented people to immigrate here, those who can assimilate rapidly, which at minimum entails speaking and writing good English [not Spanish or Spanglish], paying taxes and possessing a deep appreciation of the civic virtues. Beyond that I want the best talents in Classical Literature, History, Technology and the sciences to find this country attractive.

    3. As I have always maintained numbers are of the essence, and the numbers do not cause me any alarm. Whites growing less than replacement rate will likely reverse. I honestly don't see a cause for alarm. What is this great concern about a "vanishing phenotype!!" I am blond and blue but I don't see that as anything special; nothing rationally important in perpetuating that "phenotype". For G'd's sake man, do you think humans are entirely the sum of how they look?

    4. All the Greek chappies you named there would've likely told you things similar to what Diogenes might have, although I am not sure about Euclid and Aristophanes.

    5. Have you watched Fawlty Towers? There is a character named Manuel in it; I feel I should summon my inner Manuel when you ask my opinion of "The Frankfurt School," telling you "I don't know naathing!" about it. I am not into "schools", all that much. I like reading writers I consider brilliant in terms of their insights and prose styling, irrespective of any "school of thought" they might be associated with. My current favourites are Richard F.Burton, William Shirer, Smil and of course Chesterton. After I read, I engage in masterly inactivity, and try to form any derivative ideas or conclusions. For the most part, little is allowed past my high standards, explaining the marked paucity of anything useful in my comments.

    6. I am a staunch defender of Western Culture; that is other than those times when I am not.

    Happy New Year

    I am a staunch defender of Western Culture; that is other than those times when I am not.

    The only time I feel the pain
    Is in the sunshine or the rain
    And I don’t feel no hurt at all
    Unless you count when teardrops fall
    I tell the truth ‘cept when I lie
    And it only hurts me when I cry
    –Dwight Yoakam

    “It is always the best policy to speak the truth, unless, of course, you are an exceptionally good liar.”
    ―Jerome K. Jerome

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Well said.

    Happy New Year my friend!
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  • @Sam Shama
    1. Define Western Culture and prove it has remained unchanged over the centuries.

    2. Yes, I love the U.S. and I don't think anything alarming is really going on. I happen to believe that Obama's planned intake of Syrian refugees is far too many and most likely the Donald will reverse this. I want smart and talented people to immigrate here, those who can assimilate rapidly, which at minimum entails speaking and writing good English [not Spanish or Spanglish], paying taxes and possessing a deep appreciation of the civic virtues. Beyond that I want the best talents in Classical Literature, History, Technology and the sciences to find this country attractive.

    3. As I have always maintained numbers are of the essence, and the numbers do not cause me any alarm. Whites growing less than replacement rate will likely reverse. I honestly don't see a cause for alarm. What is this great concern about a "vanishing phenotype!!" I am blond and blue but I don't see that as anything special; nothing rationally important in perpetuating that "phenotype". For G'd's sake man, do you think humans are entirely the sum of how they look?

    4. All the Greek chappies you named there would've likely told you things similar to what Diogenes might have, although I am not sure about Euclid and Aristophanes.

    5. Have you watched Fawlty Towers? There is a character named Manuel in it; I feel I should summon my inner Manuel when you ask my opinion of "The Frankfurt School," telling you "I don't know naathing!" about it. I am not into "schools", all that much. I like reading writers I consider brilliant in terms of their insights and prose styling, irrespective of any "school of thought" they might be associated with. My current favourites are Richard F.Burton, William Shirer, Smil and of course Chesterton. After I read, I engage in masterly inactivity, and try to form any derivative ideas or conclusions. For the most part, little is allowed past my high standards, explaining the marked paucity of anything useful in my comments.

    6. I am a staunch defender of Western Culture; that is other than those times when I am not.

    Happy New Year

    1. Western culture, is a term used very broadly to refer to a heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, belief systems, political systems, and specific artifacts and technologies that have some origin or association with Europe. The term is applied to European countries and countries whose history is strongly marked by European immigration, colonisation, and influence, such as the continents of the Americas and Australasia, whose current demographic majority is of European ethnicity, and is not restricted to the continent of Europe.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

    Not sure why you think it needs to remain static?

    2. Yes, I love the U.S. and I don’t think anything alarming is really going on. 3. As I have always maintained numbers are of the essence, and the numbers do not cause me any alarm. Whites growing less than replacement rate will likely reverse. I honestly don’t see a cause for alarm.

    Got it. There is no cause for alarm.

    4. All the Greek chappies you named there would’ve likely told you things similar to what Diogenes might have, although I am not sure about Euclid and Aristophanes.

    From where did you pull this response, Sam? I managed to find this response to the Quora question “Was there racism in Ancient Greece?” provided by a modern Greek Aristoteles Oikonomou (ancient historian, philosopher, etc):

    “The Ancient Greeks were not racist in terms of skin color or ethnic differences. They would not discriminate and segregate a man due to his origin, religion or culture, and were more accepting of foreigners. However, a lot of them were ‘nationalists’ (mostly Athenians), in the sense that they valued Hellenic culture as the best one over all the others. Only Greeks were allowed along with other people with very similar cultures (Rome, Macedon) to participate in their games or religious festivals.”

    https://www.quora.com/Was-there-racism-in-ancient-Greece

    5. Have you watched Fawlty Towers?

    When you take a break from watching old episodes of FT, why don’t you try reading an excellent collection of essays edited by William S. Lind, called “Political Correctness:” A Short History of an Ideology

    http://static.ow.ly/docs/Political%20Correctnes%20-%20A%20Short%20History%20of%20an%20Idealogy_9Nd.pdf

    Or you could quickly peruse the summary version, William Lind’s, The Origins of Political Correctness http://www.academia.org/the-origins-of-political-correctness/

    and then give us your views on the FS?

    6. British humour?

    Happy New Year to you too, Sam.

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I read the condensed version of PC. The ascription to Marxism is a tenuous one at best; Marx, whatever else one might think of him, was a brilliant and sincere intellectual; of course he had no sodding idea how a complex capitalist system should work, in addition to being a G'dless Marxist to boot :-) .

    The anti-PC movement which I reckoned somewhat overdue until the recent election of the Donald, ought to by itself, as is, make quick work of PC, finds it further necessary to tar the snowflakes and homosexuals with the leperous reputation of Marxism. I call that an overkill. Even as a strategic device it brings a bludgeon to swat a fly. I have a young cousin in one of the Ivies who routinely goes around running his mouth off at the PC events and gatherings with little consequence beyond shrugging off some screeching snowflakes, fruits, and their assorted helpers. He's been hauled to the headmaster's office [in a manner of speaking], as it turned out mainly for appearance's sake, and privately led to believe that the administrators were willing to connive if not actively encourage his behaviour. He's been attracting followers.

    So I sense that parents and teachers are perhaps watching all this with a measure of amusement, not alarm.

    I also sense PC is on the way out and all these attempts to link it somehow, to some obscure "school" is just another academic masturbatory exercise. However I do hope the exit of PC does not swing the pendulum to the opposite extreme where gratuitous slurs become the common standard.

    There is something to be said for everyday politeness.
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  • @Karl
    > The whole world at the UN just voted 14 to zero on your false claims.

    The Pakistanis didn't ask anyone's permission - much less the former occupying colonial power, for permission to incorporate Balochistan into their country. That all happened post-WWII.

    We also will not ask the world's permission to live in our very heartland.

    We can live-&-let-live with anyone and everyone who wants to live alongside us, or even amongst us.

    However comma, they don't get to replace the Knesset as Sovereign.

    I would not want to be the one who drops the first bomb in the destruction of the Palace in Amman to make way for "Palestine".... but if that's what it takes, then we'll have to eventually go there.

    We can live-&-let-live with anyone and everyone who wants to live alongside us, or even amongst us.

    No one who is both aware and honest, believes that for a second.

    Statements like that, are why people have no real respect for the Jew.

    You people live on series of lies. You cannot lie to all the people all the time – it come back to bite you.

    Peace — Art

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  • @Karl
    > similar, for example, to European colonization of North America

    The Pilgrims et al, did NOT see themselves as RETURNING to their ancestral homeland.

    Hebrews do.

    Dig down in the ground anywhere in the country. You run into 3000-year-old tax receipts and marriage notices.... in Hebrew.

    Ever ethnicity is indigenous to somewhere. Hebrews are not indigenous to Khazaria, my friend.


    How come you have no heartburn about Arabic settler-colonialism in the Coptic & Maronite homelands? What is so fucking special about these Arabs that they get a free pass from you? Is it just the passage of time? Ok, we will introduce a circumstance wherein the Arabs require many hundreds of years to imagine that they have enough numbers to re-populate Hebron.

    Dig down in the ground anywhere in the country. You run into 3000-year-old tax receipts and marriage notices…. in Hebrew.

    So what — there are historical layers of other peoples also.

    This is the year 2017 – you want to fight and kill like you did in the year 17 – the world is not buying it!

    We want to respect people and their property – that is our peaceful goal – we respect the rightful needs of the living.

    Only the inferior – only the bad – want to kill over past history.

    Peace — Art

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  • @Karl
    > The whole world at the UN just voted 14 to zero on your false claims.

    The Pakistanis didn't ask anyone's permission - much less the former occupying colonial power, for permission to incorporate Balochistan into their country. That all happened post-WWII.

    We also will not ask the world's permission to live in our very heartland.

    We can live-&-let-live with anyone and everyone who wants to live alongside us, or even amongst us.

    However comma, they don't get to replace the Knesset as Sovereign.

    I would not want to be the one who drops the first bomb in the destruction of the Palace in Amman to make way for "Palestine".... but if that's what it takes, then we'll have to eventually go there.

    I would not want to be the one who drops the first bomb in the destruction of the Palace in Amman to make way for “Palestine”…. but if that’s what it takes, then we’ll have to eventually go there.

    You Jew are a bunch of bloody bastards – now you are going to blow up Jorden.

    Your claims are bogus – they are meaningless – they can only be enforced by blood.

    If you need to kill to get something – you are wrong – that is how modern grown up humanity sees it.

    Once again World 14 – Jew ZERO – such it up!

    Peace — Art

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  • @Karl
    > similar, for example, to European colonization of North America

    The Pilgrims et al, did NOT see themselves as RETURNING to their ancestral homeland.

    Hebrews do.

    Dig down in the ground anywhere in the country. You run into 3000-year-old tax receipts and marriage notices.... in Hebrew.

    Ever ethnicity is indigenous to somewhere. Hebrews are not indigenous to Khazaria, my friend.


    How come you have no heartburn about Arabic settler-colonialism in the Coptic & Maronite homelands? What is so fucking special about these Arabs that they get a free pass from you? Is it just the passage of time? Ok, we will introduce a circumstance wherein the Arabs require many hundreds of years to imagine that they have enough numbers to re-populate Hebron.

    Nothing you find that is 3000, or 2500 years old has anything to do even with YHWH, let alone with the Talmudic religion that created your ethnic group, in the same way as the Nestorian Church of the East created the modern ethnic group of “Assyrians”.

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  • @Karl
    > Jesus-cult are indigenous to Eretz Israel. We all agree on that] No we don’t.

    So Christianity originated in Khazaria? The Gospels do not report that Jesus entered the actual Temple ?

    Who emplaced the stones of the Western Wall?

    Where was the Hebrew bible written.... Reykjavik?

    [So Christianity originated in] Greek speaking urban communities around the shores of the eastern Mediterranean.
    [Where was the Hebrew bible written] Mesopotamia.

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  • @Anon
    Fanaticism must mean something, and if Burton is correct that

    ...though neither Koran or Sultan enjoin the death of Jew or Christian intruding within the columns that note the sanctuary limits, nothing could save a European detected by the populace, or one who after pilgrimage declared himself an unbeliever.

     

    fanaticism is, I think, a decent shorthand for such action, which also fits, to me, one of Dr. Johnson's definitions, "a man with wild notions of religion". However, another definition implies that fanatics are "struck with superstitious frenzy", and the word itself is certainly unnecessarily pejorative, so I withdraw it happily if you so insist.

    Burton may be exaggerating, of course; it was him I principally had in mind, since he traveled in 1850-something when the Ottomans were in charge, hence my question.

    Wasting a half-hour sorting through Burton has also answered this, though:


    The Hanafi school holds the first rank at Al-Madinah, as in most parts of Al-Islam, although many of the citizens, and almost all the Badawin, are Shafe’is.
     
    On the other hand, perhaps the Meccans themselves can hardly be regarded as fanatical, if they exhibit (in the 1850s), compared to other Muslims,

    pride, bigotry, irreligion, greed of gain, immorality, and prodigal ostentation
     
    (!)

    The grace of God be with you.

    Yup, that right there is textbook fanaticism; mob violence or vigilantism – and over the top punitive measures. It is usually the hallmark of those who have just enough knowledge to make them dangerous, but not enough to bring them in reign.

    Thanks for those insights from Burton, I found the reference here:

    https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/b/burton/richard/b97p/chapter21.html

    From what I can tell, from reading he makes some mistakes in his assessment and has some great insights as well. As far as his opinions on the people, well, it may just be me, but I always take the opinions of Victorian English with massive bags of salt.

    Peace.

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  • @Sam Shama
    This post and your previous one made me realise that you are grasping at straws and they are failing to keep you afloat.

    Had you been debating on a seasoned forum, of pedigree, you'd have caused much mirth as you stepped off the podium, and chutzpah, that hoary Jewish gem, wouldn't have been the word summoned in the minds of the audience; comedy, I daresay would've better caught the mood. So, to start with, as one who rejects multiculturalism, you'd serve yourself better refraining from its use.

    It's of no use putting yourself through contortions attempting to respond to this post I am about to complete. But do so if you wish. It had begun to dawn on me during our recent exchanges on the subject of crude oil volatility; you're a person incapable of abandoning false premises once the teeth are firmly lodged in the flawed bone.

    So, to turn our eyes on a matter which should be fairly straightforward, in the following posts I laid out what I believe might be equitable solutions:

    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1706823
    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1706866
    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1709344
    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1709344
    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1709856
    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1710096
    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1710955
    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1711008
    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/welcome-to-greater-israel/#comment-1711036

    It is certainly not 'The guy who's advocating the transfer of 1.8M people", but one who is calling to explore voluntary swaps with fair compensation. It is the fellow who also remarked

    I never understood why “religious” Jews object to Palestinians co-habiting a common ancestral land; nor Hamas/Pals declaring their intention to throw every Jew into the sea.

    Those were the posts which prompted Talha to remark something to the effect that he found my position to be one of the more reasonable or acceptable explanations.

    Let us ask Talha, RobinG, Iffen or Wiz, those interlocutors with whom I exchanged courteous words if they found anything in my posts above which might be construed as forcing population transfers.

    I think your 'delineation' is actually a wobbly strawman.

    So, getting past the nonsense and observing you hadn't been able to construct even a figment to counter my observations in #390: unable to offer why extremely small numbers of non-white immigration to Canada causes you to invoke the Rurik gambit, unable to explain the meaning of infinite immigration etc, unable to prove that your phenotype is about to be lost forever, I am left to wonder what alarm bells plague your moments of private contemplation?

    Finally and most importantly - stowing the well-known talking points re: Zionism ad nauseum and sticking to the question of personal integrity- for one who so grandly proclaims a desire to 'ensure western nations retain their historic character,' claims Diogenes as the zenith of one's cultural aspirations, how do they then reconcile that with their expedient abandonment of said principles ?

    Perhaps Diogenes came with a contingency clause.

    Good night.

    Hey Sam,

    For my part, it’s not what I would ideally prefer, but the specifics of what you have written are more reasonable than practically any other plan I have seen forwarded from the Israeli perspective – I doubt few others would agree to swapping some land from inside the green line. And it doesn’t sound like force population transfer to me. I mean it may even require resettling of some stubborn Jewish settlers, but that has precedence in Gaza.

    Peace.

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  • @Karl
    > overly spicy oily curry

    Hindus taught you everything you know about that..... kind of like algebra.

    Ya, there was that famous book "al-jbr" that you like to drone on about..... but it was merely a compilation of other people's stuff.

    Newton published his stuff in Latin. Which is NOT an evidence that the Latin people thought up the ideas therein.....

    Hey Karl,

    that you like to drone on about

    Hmmm…searched for me droning on about algebra in my archives – couldn’t find it.

    Imam Biruni (ra) wrote much praise of the Dharmic civilization and any Muslim that doesn’t recognize that the Muslims studied and synthesized the earlier scientific efforts of them and people like the Greeks and even Chinese is a fool:
    “Over time, Al-Biruni won the welcome of Hindu scholars. Al-Biruni collected books and studied with these Hindu scholars to become fluent in Sanskrit, discover and translate into Arabic the mathematics, science, medicine, astronomy and other fields of arts as practiced in 11th century India. He was inspired by the arguments offered by Indian scholars who believed earth must be ellipsoid shape, with yet to be discovered continent at earth’s south pole, and earth’s rotation around the sun is the only way to fully explain the difference in daylight hours by latitude, seasons and earth’s relative positions with moon and stars.”

    https://selfstudyhistory.com/2015/09/30/al-birunis-india/

    And anybody who states that the sons and inheritors of the Persian civilization did not contribute anything of originality to those sciences…well, I have been taking them far too seriously. Let me know when you have something other than schoolyard taunts – otherwise, please don’t waste my time.

    Peace.

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  • @Karl
    > similar, for example, to European colonization of North America

    The Pilgrims et al, did NOT see themselves as RETURNING to their ancestral homeland.

    Hebrews do.

    Dig down in the ground anywhere in the country. You run into 3000-year-old tax receipts and marriage notices.... in Hebrew.

    Ever ethnicity is indigenous to somewhere. Hebrews are not indigenous to Khazaria, my friend.


    How come you have no heartburn about Arabic settler-colonialism in the Coptic & Maronite homelands? What is so fucking special about these Arabs that they get a free pass from you? Is it just the passage of time? Ok, we will introduce a circumstance wherein the Arabs require many hundreds of years to imagine that they have enough numbers to re-populate Hebron.

    The Pilgrims et al, did NOT see themselves as RETURNING to their ancestral homeland.

    This is nonsense. Marginal propaganda items designed to motivate the 10% of compete idiots have nothing to do with the substance of events.

    Y’know, you’d do better by analyzing meaningful socioeconomic and geopolitical phenomena, and ignoring the fluff. And this, what you’re concentrating on, is fluff.

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama


    This is nonsense.

    Y’know, you’d do better by analyzing meaningful socioeconomic and geopolitical phenomena, and ignoring the fluff. And this, what you’re concentrating on, is fluff.

     

    There is nonsense that others consider you to be the source of. In fact holding your opponent's viewpoint as nonsense, is a common enough sentiment in debating forums. Some nonsense is better than other nonsense. You are offering your input in a discussion which while lends itself naturally to implications grounded in economics and policy are, precisely, therefore, impossible to extricate from the history which forged them; and that history is not open for arbitrary selection; of the point and time of its origin; ergo unsound, your depiction as fluff, the history of the Pilgrims in context.

    The Pilgrims arriving on these shores were imbued with a sense of destiny openly proclaimed as inspirations drawn from Biblical motifs of Hebrews fleeing the Pharaoh (see Abraham Katsh, The Biblical Heritage of American Democracy)

    Many of the Founding Fathers were trained Hebrew scholars, went to the elite schools of this country - which, to this day, preserve their mottos in Biblical Hebrew - and gave their commencement speeches in Hebrew.

    It was once contemplated that the Constitution be written in Hebrew.

    Take it from George Washingon who wrote invoking the Prophet Micah, to the members of a Rhode Island synagogue:

    "May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in the land continue to merit and enjoy the goodwill of the other inhabitants. While everyone shall sit safely under his own vine and fig-tree and there shall be none to make him afraid."
     
    Or take John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van Der Kemp, 16 February 1809:

    "... I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations. If I were an atheist of another sect... I should still believe that chance had ordered the Jews to preserve and propagate for all mankind the doctrine of a supreme, intelligent, wise almighty sovereign of the universe, which I believe to be the great essential principle of all morality, and consequently of all civilization… They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this earth. The Romans and their Empire were but a bauble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three quarters of the globe and have influenced the affairs of mankind more, and more happily than any other nation, ancient or modern." As quoted in: Allan Gould, What Did They Think of the Jews, (New Jersey, 1997), pp. 71-72.
     
    So Hebrew, or more precisely the Bible in Hebrew is very much in the DNA of this great nation, and may it always be so.

    There, enough ordinance for some here to start nuclear fission! :-)
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  • @Art
    On the question of title to a piece of the Holy Land, I am bound to observe that our’s precedes all other claims.

    Proceeding claims do not trump current claims. The world does not recognize you outlandish claims. The whole world at the UN just voted 14 to zero on your false claims. Get it - good moral World 14 – thieving JEWS zero.

    The stench of what you Jews are doing is odious. The coercion involved in this theft of Palestine is staggering.

    We refuse to allow you Jews to take humanity backwards into the tribal hell of thousands of years ago.

    Peace --- Art

    > The whole world at the UN just voted 14 to zero on your false claims.

    The Pakistanis didn’t ask anyone’s permission – much less the former occupying colonial power, for permission to incorporate Balochistan into their country. That all happened post-WWII.

    We also will not ask the world’s permission to live in our very heartland.

    We can live-&-let-live with anyone and everyone who wants to live alongside us, or even amongst us.

    However comma, they don’t get to replace the Knesset as Sovereign.

    I would not want to be the one who drops the first bomb in the destruction of the Palace in Amman to make way for “Palestine”…. but if that’s what it takes, then we’ll have to eventually go there.

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    • Replies: @Art
    I would not want to be the one who drops the first bomb in the destruction of the Palace in Amman to make way for “Palestine”…. but if that’s what it takes, then we’ll have to eventually go there.

    You Jew are a bunch of bloody bastards - now you are going to blow up Jorden.

    Your claims are bogus - they are meaningless - they can only be enforced by blood.

    If you need to kill to get something - you are wrong - that is how modern grown up humanity sees it.

    Once again World 14 - Jew ZERO - such it up!

    Peace --- Art
    , @Art
    We can live-&-let-live with anyone and everyone who wants to live alongside us, or even amongst us.

    No one who is both aware and honest, believes that for a second.

    Statements like that, are why people have no real respect for the Jew.

    You people live on series of lies. You cannot lie to all the people all the time - it come back to bite you.

    Peace --- Art
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  • @5371
    [YHWH-cult and Jesus-cult are indigenous to Eretz Israel. We all agree on that]

    No we don't.

    > Jesus-cult are indigenous to Eretz Israel. We all agree on that] No we don’t.

    So Christianity originated in Khazaria? The Gospels do not report that Jesus entered the actual Temple ?

    Who emplaced the stones of the Western Wall?

    Where was the Hebrew bible written…. Reykjavik?

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    • Replies: @5371
    [So Christianity originated in] Greek speaking urban communities around the shores of the eastern Mediterranean.
    [Where was the Hebrew bible written] Mesopotamia.
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  • @Mao Cheng Ji

    Your argument appears to be that when a country is a recognised sovereign nation by (presumably) the standards of international law – or by the generality of other nations’ recognition maybe – it can acquire territory, including populated territory, by conquest and annexation.
     
    That's not the issue we've been discussing here. We were talking about settler-colonialism, and I objected to the notion that the China/Tibet situation is a species of the same phenomenon, that's all. The legality of annexation of Tibet is a separate unrelated issue.

    And what I'm saying has nothing to do with legality, I'm just trying to clarify the essence of the situation in Palestine in the last 60 years. The essence of it, what's being happening there all these years.

    To me -- and to many others all over the world -- it's the last attempt at Western settler-colonialism, similar, for example, to European colonization of North America, started in mid-1600s, and completed, for the most part, 200 (or so) years later.

    > similar, for example, to European colonization of North America

    The Pilgrims et al, did NOT see themselves as RETURNING to their ancestral homeland.

    Hebrews do.

    Dig down in the ground anywhere in the country. You run into 3000-year-old tax receipts and marriage notices…. in Hebrew.

    Ever ethnicity is indigenous to somewhere. Hebrews are not indigenous to Khazaria, my friend.

    How come you have no heartburn about Arabic settler-colonialism in the Coptic & Maronite homelands? What is so fucking special about these Arabs that they get a free pass from you? Is it just the passage of time? Ok, we will introduce a circumstance wherein the Arabs require many hundreds of years to imagine that they have enough numbers to re-populate Hebron.

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    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji

    The Pilgrims et al, did NOT see themselves as RETURNING to their ancestral homeland.

     

    This is nonsense. Marginal propaganda items designed to motivate the 10% of compete idiots have nothing to do with the substance of events.

    Y'know, you'd do better by analyzing meaningful socioeconomic and geopolitical phenomena, and ignoring the fluff. And this, what you're concentrating on, is fluff.
    , @5371
    Nothing you find that is 3000, or 2500 years old has anything to do even with YHWH, let alone with the Talmudic religion that created your ethnic group, in the same way as the Nestorian Church of the East created the modern ethnic group of "Assyrians".
    , @Art
    Dig down in the ground anywhere in the country. You run into 3000-year-old tax receipts and marriage notices…. in Hebrew.

    So what -- there are historical layers of other peoples also.

    This is the year 2017 - you want to fight and kill like you did in the year 17 - the world is not buying it!

    We want to respect people and their property - that is our peaceful goal - we respect the rightful needs of the living.

    Only the inferior - only the bad - want to kill over past history.

    Peace --- Art
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  • @Talha
    (sigh) yes Karl - that's what we all want. We do not like the fact that overly spicy oily curry is not the only menu option in the West. You got us - I will have to tell our elders we have been found out.

    https://youtu.be/VKcAYMb5uk4

    Peace.

    > overly spicy oily curry

    Hindus taught you everything you know about that….. kind of like algebra.

    Ya, there was that famous book “al-jbr” that you like to drone on about….. but it was merely a compilation of other people’s stuff.

    Newton published his stuff in Latin. Which is NOT an evidence that the Latin people thought up the ideas therein…..

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Karl,

    that you like to drone on about
     
    Hmmm...searched for me droning on about algebra in my archives - couldn't find it.

    Imam Biruni (ra) wrote much praise of the Dharmic civilization and any Muslim that doesn't recognize that the Muslims studied and synthesized the earlier scientific efforts of them and people like the Greeks and even Chinese is a fool:
    "Over time, Al-Biruni won the welcome of Hindu scholars. Al-Biruni collected books and studied with these Hindu scholars to become fluent in Sanskrit, discover and translate into Arabic the mathematics, science, medicine, astronomy and other fields of arts as practiced in 11th century India. He was inspired by the arguments offered by Indian scholars who believed earth must be ellipsoid shape, with yet to be discovered continent at earth’s south pole, and earth’s rotation around the sun is the only way to fully explain the difference in daylight hours by latitude, seasons and earth’s relative positions with moon and stars."
    https://selfstudyhistory.com/2015/09/30/al-birunis-india/

    And anybody who states that the sons and inheritors of the Persian civilization did not contribute anything of originality to those sciences...well, I have been taking them far too seriously. Let me know when you have something other than schoolyard taunts - otherwise, please don't waste my time.

    Peace.

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  • @geokat62

    It is certainly not ‘The guy who’s advocating the transfer of 1.8M people”, but one who is calling to explore voluntary swaps with fair compensation. It is the fellow who also remarked
     
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the "voluntary and fair" part applied to the WB and according to your proposed solution Gaza should be Egypt's problem? In my eyes, this is just another form of population transfer, notwithstanding the fact that you are reluctant to present it as such.

    unable to offer why extremely small numbers of non-white immigration to Canada causes you to invoke the Rurik gambit, unable to explain the meaning of infinite immigration etc, unable to prove that your phenotype is about to be lost forever, I am left to wonder what alarm bells plague your moments of private contemplation?
     
    Forget about Canada for a moment. Let's talk about your beloved USA. What do you make of this headline:

    The nation’s demographics are on a clear trajectory: White people are dying faster than they are being born, which means they are on target to become a minority in the United States in 30 years.

    http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/6/25/whites-on-target-to-become-a-us-minority.html
     
    Does this not represent alarm bells for you? If not, why not?

    Now, let's look at Canada. Here are the latest projections:

    A massive demographic change is taking place that could alter Canada's economic, political and education systems and exacerbate the divide between rural and urban communities.

    By 2031, one in three Canadians will belong to a visible minority. One in four will be foreign-born, the highest proportion since the end of the last wave of mass immigration that began around 1910, Statscan said in a release Tuesday.

    Never before have those who identify themselves as racial minorities seen their ranks grow at such a pace, sparking a debate about how Canada itself might change over the next 20 years. Some argue it won't change much at all, that new immigrants will, like their predecessors, adapt to the established cultural norms. Others say the process might not be so smooth, that there may be growing pains to overcome as groups with very different cultural practices brush up against one another.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/the-changing-face-of-canada-booming-minority-populations-by-2031/article569072/
     
    The Franfurt School would be very pleased with these outcomes, to be sure.

    ... how do they then reconcile that with their expedient abandonment of said principles ?
     
    You seem to think that Diogenes is the only figure in the panoply of Greek thinkers. He's not. There are dozens and dozens. And as you know there are many that rank much higher than Diogenes in terms of their contributions to western human thought (e.g., Plato, Aristotle, Archimedes, Euclid, Heraclitus, Democratus, Hippocrates, Sophocles, Euripedis, Aristophanes, Aeschylus, etc. etc. etc.) I simply cited Diogenes in the context of one of our discussions to explain why I was urging you to be consistent with your reasoning, remember?... either rule #1 (end jusify the means) or rule #2 (adherance to morality). And Diogenes best described the importance of being consistently honest (hence the lantern in daylight looking for an honest man). That was it. I didn't declare that Diogenes was my northern star when it came to my views on immigration. No, my northern star for that is the Frankfurt School.

    Speaking of the FS, you've never shared your views on this group, Sam. Do you agree they were the inspiration for the New Left via their propagation of cultural Marxism? What do you make of their goals - undermining the foundations of Western culture by attacking the key institutions including the family, by promoting multiculturalism, diversity, etc. - so that fascism never takes root in America to prevent another holocaust. Do you think it was a noble project? Or do you condemn their efforts given the visible damage it has done to Western societies?

    I guess the fundamental question I'm driving at is this: are you a defender of Western culture - i.e., do you count yourself among those who think it is important to ensure Western societies take the necessary steps to retain their western character before it's too late - or not?

    1. Define Western Culture and prove it has remained unchanged over the centuries.

    2. Yes, I love the U.S. and I don’t think anything alarming is really going on. I happen to believe that Obama’s planned intake of Syrian refugees is far too many and most likely the Donald will reverse this. I want smart and talented people to immigrate here, those who can assimilate rapidly, which at minimum entails speaking and writing good English [not Spanish or Spanglish], paying taxes and possessing a deep appreciation of the civic virtues. Beyond that I want the best talents in Classical Literature, History, Technology and the sciences to find this country attractive.

    3. As I have always maintained numbers are of the essence, and the numbers do not cause me any alarm. Whites growing less than replacement rate will likely reverse. I honestly don’t see a cause for alarm. What is this great concern about a “vanishing phenotype!!” I am blond and blue but I don’t see that as anything special; nothing rationally important in perpetuating that “phenotype”. For G’d’s sake man, do you think humans are entirely the sum of how they look?

    4. All the Greek chappies you named there would’ve likely told you things similar to what Diogenes might have, although I am not sure about Euclid and Aristophanes.

    5. Have you watched Fawlty Towers? There is a character named Manuel in it; I feel I should summon my inner Manuel when you ask my opinion of “The Frankfurt School,” telling you “I don’t know naathing!” about it. I am not into “schools”, all that much. I like reading writers I consider brilliant in terms of their insights and prose styling, irrespective of any “school of thought” they might be associated with. My current favourites are Richard F.Burton, William Shirer, Smil and of course Chesterton. After I read, I engage in masterly inactivity, and try to form any derivative ideas or conclusions. For the most part, little is allowed past my high standards, explaining the marked paucity of anything useful in my comments.

    6. I am a staunch defender of Western Culture; that is other than those times when I am not.

    Happy New Year

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    • Replies: @geokat62
    1. Western culture, is a term used very broadly to refer to a heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, belief systems, political systems, and specific artifacts and technologies that have some origin or association with Europe. The term is applied to European countries and countries whose history is strongly marked by European immigration, colonisation, and influence, such as the continents of the Americas and Australasia, whose current demographic majority is of European ethnicity, and is not restricted to the continent of Europe.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

    Not sure why you think it needs to remain static?

    2. Yes, I love the U.S. and I don’t think anything alarming is really going on. 3. As I have always maintained numbers are of the essence, and the numbers do not cause me any alarm. Whites growing less than replacement rate will likely reverse. I honestly don’t see a cause for alarm.

    Got it. There is no cause for alarm.

    4. All the Greek chappies you named there would’ve likely told you things similar to what Diogenes might have, although I am not sure about Euclid and Aristophanes.
     
    From where did you pull this response, Sam? I managed to find this response to the Quora question "Was there racism in Ancient Greece?" provided by a modern Greek Aristoteles Oikonomou (ancient historian, philosopher, etc):

    "The Ancient Greeks were not racist in terms of skin color or ethnic differences. They would not discriminate and segregate a man due to his origin, religion or culture, and were more accepting of foreigners. However, a lot of them were 'nationalists' (mostly Athenians), in the sense that they valued Hellenic culture as the best one over all the others. Only Greeks were allowed along with other people with very similar cultures (Rome, Macedon) to participate in their games or religious festivals."
    https://www.quora.com/Was-there-racism-in-ancient-Greece


    5. Have you watched Fawlty Towers?

    When you take a break from watching old episodes of FT, why don't you try reading an excellent collection of essays edited by William S. Lind, called “Political Correctness:” A Short History of an Ideology
    http://static.ow.ly/docs/Political%20Correctnes%20-%20A%20Short%20History%20of%20an%20Idealogy_9Nd.pdf

    Or you could quickly peruse the summary version, William Lind’s, The Origins of Political Correctness http://www.academia.org/the-origins-of-political-correctness/

    and then give us your views on the FS?

    6. British humour?

    Happy New Year to you too, Sam.
    , @iffen
    I am a staunch defender of Western Culture; that is other than those times when I am not.

    The only time I feel the pain
    Is in the sunshine or the rain
    And I don't feel no hurt at all
    Unless you count when teardrops fall
    I tell the truth 'cept when I lie
    And it only hurts me when I cry
    --Dwight Yoakam

    “It is always the best policy to speak the truth, unless, of course, you are an exceptionally good liar.”
    ―Jerome K. Jerome
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  • @Sam Shama
    It's nice to see you fellows work yourselves up into a fine lather :-)

    Ahh, good soap makes good lather.

    Let’s pull down the (lamp)shades on the old year and look forward to a
    Happy New Year for all.

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  • My New Year recommendation from my JVP friend:

    STATE OF TERROR: HOW TERRORISM CREATED MODERN ISRAEL
    by Thomas Suarez

    “The book is the first comprehensive and structured analysis of the violence and terror employed by the Zionist movement, and later the state of Israel, against the people of Palestine.” Prof. Ilan Pappé

    “The less well-known history of the period…from the Balfour Declaration of 1917 through the British Mandate of 1922-1948 has now been thoroughly researched in this new book by Thomas Suárez, working largely from British Government archives. He continues the story until the end of the 1956 war in which Israel, Britain and France attacked Egypt.

    “The book also reveals the Zionist willingness to use violence against their Jewish opponents; their conviction that all Jews had an obligation to leave their homelands to go to Palestine; their willingness to stir up anti-semitism to encourage such migration; and their attempts to prevent displaced Jews going anywhere other than Palestine.

    “This book is true, and it is important. It proves beyond doubt that Israel is not the perpetual victim of Arab violence that it claims to be, but has been the aggressor throughout the history of the conflict.” David Gerald Fincham

    https://www.amazon.com/State-Terror-Terrorism-Created-Modern/dp/1566560683

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  • @Carroll Price

    On the question of title to a piece of the Holy Land, I am bound to observe that our’s precedes all other claims
     
    In reference to Israel's unprecedented, title to the land of Palestine, reference post 305 in which I explained to jacques sheetes how this bit of slight-of-hand came about. But I don't blame you conniving people for inventing tall tales near as much as I blame millions of simple-minded Christian fundamentalist who read obvious crap of that description and believe every word due to being taught from birth to death that anything written by a Jew is, by definition, the gospel truth. It's enough to shake one's faith in his own people

    anything written by a Jew is, by definition, the gospel truth.

    Well, the Gospels were written by Jews.

    Now, if you are talking about Sam, he makes top flight comments, but he is not infallible.

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  • @Anonymous
    I never heard of a Brith Milah.

    I've done a fair amount of work with titles to land, deeds and such, and I have and do possess "rights to land" by deed, registered in my name with the lawful authority in the appropriate jurisdictions. I think a guy named DeSota wrote a book a few years ago about registered rights to land being the basis of a capitalist society.

    But I never came across a Brith Milah.

    Who conveyed title?
    What legitimate body registered the conveyance? The way it works in the jurisdictions I've been involved with, if it ain't registered and sealed by the appropriate authority, it ain't an enforceable conveyance. If both parties to the conveyance are not represented and participate in an equitable exchange, it ain't an enforceable conveyance.

    You got sealed papers?
    Or voices in your head?

    come to think of it, in an earlier life I did a little work with folks who heard voices in their heads. Sad cases, those; tormented by neurological processes gone haywire. We helped them as best we could, to live their lives as fully as possible, and not be a danger to others around them.

    Based on claims similar to Israel’s, the Boers of South Africa also claimed the Transvaal was theirs by right of Covenant, but General Kirchner soon proved them wrong.

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  • @Carroll Price

    On the question of title to a piece of the Holy Land, I am bound to observe that our’s precedes all other claims
     
    In reference to Israel's unprecedented, title to the land of Palestine, reference post 305 in which I explained to jacques sheetes how this bit of slight-of-hand came about. But I don't blame you conniving people for inventing tall tales near as much as I blame millions of simple-minded Christian fundamentalist who read obvious crap of that description and believe every word due to being taught from birth to death that anything written by a Jew is, by definition, the gospel truth. It's enough to shake one's faith in his own people

    Carroll, don’t work yourself up into a state of fury over everything that gets written in the comments section.

    Happy New Year to you.

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  • @Anonymous
    I never heard of a Brith Milah.

    I've done a fair amount of work with titles to land, deeds and such, and I have and do possess "rights to land" by deed, registered in my name with the lawful authority in the appropriate jurisdictions. I think a guy named DeSota wrote a book a few years ago about registered rights to land being the basis of a capitalist society.

    But I never came across a Brith Milah.

    Who conveyed title?
    What legitimate body registered the conveyance? The way it works in the jurisdictions I've been involved with, if it ain't registered and sealed by the appropriate authority, it ain't an enforceable conveyance. If both parties to the conveyance are not represented and participate in an equitable exchange, it ain't an enforceable conveyance.

    You got sealed papers?
    Or voices in your head?

    come to think of it, in an earlier life I did a little work with folks who heard voices in their heads. Sad cases, those; tormented by neurological processes gone haywire. We helped them as best we could, to live their lives as fully as possible, and not be a danger to others around them.

    It’s nice to see you fellows work yourselves up into a fine lather :-)

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Ahh, good soap makes good lather.


    Let's pull down the (lamp)shades on the old year and look forward to a
    Happy New Year for all.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Hi Carroll,
    I was thinking about people from different parts of this earth; variations in cultural stereotypes and the all too human tendency to form opinions of others. Jews do have a reputation, don't they? So do southerners in this country. I've alway held true southerners with something of a fondness. There is a certain solidity about them: people like Fred Reed. They also write better than the yanks.

    On the question of title to a piece of the Holy Land, I am bound to observe that our's precedes all other claims. Now, one might argue as to who the latest owners were, and how they were displaced; even on that basis, I reckon I could make the obvious trumping argument. You might then say colonial settlements stopped a hundred years or a bit earlier; I could then remark on the arbitrariness of that observation: two hundred years or sixty years, are mere blinks of an eye on the evolutionary scale, and man will continue to do what man always has, and all we can hope for are negotiated settlements away from war.

    On the question of title to a piece of the Holy Land, I am bound to observe that our’s precedes all other claims

    In reference to Israel’s unprecedented, title to the land of Palestine, reference post 305 in which I explained to jacques sheetes how this bit of slight-of-hand came about. But I don’t blame you conniving people for inventing tall tales near as much as I blame millions of simple-minded Christian fundamentalist who read obvious crap of that description and believe every word due to being taught from birth to death that anything written by a Jew is, by definition, the gospel truth. It’s enough to shake one’s faith in his own people

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Carroll, don't work yourself up into a state of fury over everything that gets written in the comments section.

    Happy New Year to you.

    , @iffen
    anything written by a Jew is, by definition, the gospel truth.

    Well, the Gospels were written by Jews.

    Now, if you are talking about Sam, he makes top flight comments, but he is not infallible.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sam Shama
    The Brith Milah [covenant] is the right to the land. Who is that covenant with, you think?

    I never heard of a Brith Milah.

    I’ve done a fair amount of work with titles to land, deeds and such, and I have and do possess “rights to land” by deed, registered in my name with the lawful authority in the appropriate jurisdictions. I think a guy named DeSota wrote a book a few years ago about registered rights to land being the basis of a capitalist society.

    But I never came across a Brith Milah.

    Who conveyed title?
    What legitimate body registered the conveyance? The way it works in the jurisdictions I’ve been involved with, if it ain’t registered and sealed by the appropriate authority, it ain’t an enforceable conveyance. If both parties to the conveyance are not represented and participate in an equitable exchange, it ain’t an enforceable conveyance.

    You got sealed papers?
    Or voices in your head?

    come to think of it, in an earlier life I did a little work with folks who heard voices in their heads. Sad cases, those; tormented by neurological processes gone haywire. We helped them as best we could, to live their lives as fully as possible, and not be a danger to others around them.

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    It's nice to see you fellows work yourselves up into a fine lather :-)
    , @Carroll Price
    Based on claims similar to Israel's, the Boers of South Africa also claimed the Transvaal was theirs by right of Covenant, but General Kirchner soon proved them wrong.
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  • @L.K
    @L.K
    destination… ZUSA

    Rurik: no!

    Buahaha, dude, I have to say I could kinda hear you yelling 'nooooo', had me LOL for a minute, I kid you not!
    Having stopped lol - i'm still smiling - I sort of find your objections a little strange...
    First bc, if memory serves, from previous talks, you sounded like you really liked the Tribe... maybe I misremember and/or misunderstood. I do recall you even invited Zio troll and sad little liar, shama, for a friendly drink. So why not take in another, say, 4/5 million of these pests, er, I mean, of these fine people?
    As to your claim that 'but it’s we the American people who suffer this pestilence more than most' I must call such a statement 'ridiculous'.
    Do you really believe that you guys have suffered anything like the Palestinians, the Iraqis, the Syrians?? C'mon now.
    Like I said, the elite gypsies already largely run ZUSA, so it is not like something would dramatically change, right? ZUSA is a very large country, it could easily absorb a lot of them. I bet ZUSA would be their numero uno choice too.
    What does not appear reasonable to me is that the Palestinians must continue to endure such a terrible fate, a fate which would not have befallen them without crucial ZUSA support, which as we are witnessing, may become even worse, under Trump. Didn't Trump promisse to be fair to both sides during the campaign... these guys always promisse one thing and deliver another.
    Let's also not lump ZUSA and Saudi Barbaria together. You people live in the land of the 'free' and the 'brave', correct? Ok, not so much... but still you have some freedom, you can organize and protest, etc... the problem is that zamericans rarely take advantage of these remaining freedoms... too insouciant.
    This is not a serious problem just in ZUSA, but in most of the so called Western Democracies too. Very little participation, nobody cares, until things get real ugly.
    Where were the Italians to protest against their country taking part in the destruction of Libya? Now, they r feeling quite restless, what with all the boatloads of sub-saharan blacks invading Italy trough Libya...
    In supposed Democracies, the citizenry has to participate and pay attention, keep the guard up, bc the oligarchs, the Fiend, they never stop doing their thing.
    If we are constantly asleep at the wheel, we cannot complain all that much.
    For example, the ZUSAN political system is 100% corrupt. But I never hear americans talking about radically reforming the system, u guys just keep playing by the rules of the oligarchy, electing either a democ-rat or republican stooge of the elites, and expecting different results. Why not create a new, fresh mass movement/party?
    Without real, meaningful reform, it is naive to expect change.
    The zionists rob you guys blind and you cannot even stage mass protests!
    Most don't know, don't care. So, if I help vote Trump into power, and then this individual starts a war, say, with Iran - he won't, unless he is crazy - then yes, I'm a little responsible for that. At the very least, I, and everyone else who voted for him should be up in arms demanding no war and the guy's resignation.

    Best regards and a happy new year to you, Rurik!

    Ok L.K.,

    I’m glad you got a kick out of that. Your mirth was even contagious and I smiled reading it.

    I sort of find your objections a little strange…

    First bc, if memory serves, from previous talks, you sounded like you really liked the Tribe

    some members of the tribe, yes, very much so. But I have no use for others, and I do find their collective influence upon this world as often of dubious merit.

    And, for the record, I have noticed a distinct difference between most Jews and most Israelis. They are not interchangeable. Jews are often very pleasant and reasonable and even critical of Zionism. At least insofar as it’s being applied today in Palestine.

    But Israelis are often some of the most obnoxious and arrogant assholes you’ll ever meet. Not all of them, by any stretch, but a lot of them for sure. They’ve been encouraged to be that way by their leadership, to think of themselves as exceptional and better than others and, well, God’s chosen people, for whom creation was created, and to whom the gentiles are expected to bow. It’s because of the insufferable arrogance of (some of) these people that I feel so bad for the Pals, because just being in a hotel lobby with them under civil circumstances can test a person’s forbearance, and you can only imagine how cruel and monstrous they must behave towards helpless victims at their mercy.

    So no, I wouldn’t want them all to come here, no ****** way. But at the same time, I feel terrible for the Palestinians (and all the other millions of myriad victims of Zionism today) that my government (the Fiend) has been torturing and murdering and displacing by the millions on Israel’s behalf.

    Let’s also not lump ZUSA and Saudi Barbaria together. You people live in the land of the ‘free’ and the ‘brave’, correct? Ok, not so much… but still you have some freedom, you can organize and protest, etc… the problem is that zamericans rarely take advantage of these remaining freedoms… too insouciant.

    oops, I have to go

    I’ll try to get back to this later

    Happy New Year to you too L.K. !

    Here’s to hoping it brings peace and hope to people’s lives. That’s certainly what we Americans voted for!

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  • @Anonymous

    On the question of title to a piece of the Holy Land, I am bound to observe that our’s precedes all other claims.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClsDFZsOf94

    Joshua fought shadows?

    No Canaanites in the Levant? No Amalekites?

    Jericho was never peopled -- it's cultivated fields drifted down from the sky, miraculously.

    No Rahab the Prostitute?

    damn.

    What next -- John Wayne was afraid of horses?

    The Brith Milah [covenant] is the right to the land. Who is that covenant with, you think?

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I never heard of a Brith Milah.

    I've done a fair amount of work with titles to land, deeds and such, and I have and do possess "rights to land" by deed, registered in my name with the lawful authority in the appropriate jurisdictions. I think a guy named DeSota wrote a book a few years ago about registered rights to land being the basis of a capitalist society.

    But I never came across a Brith Milah.

    Who conveyed title?
    What legitimate body registered the conveyance? The way it works in the jurisdictions I've been involved with, if it ain't registered and sealed by the appropriate authority, it ain't an enforceable conveyance. If both parties to the conveyance are not represented and participate in an equitable exchange, it ain't an enforceable conveyance.

    You got sealed papers?
    Or voices in your head?

    come to think of it, in an earlier life I did a little work with folks who heard voices in their heads. Sad cases, those; tormented by neurological processes gone haywire. We helped them as best we could, to live their lives as fully as possible, and not be a danger to others around them.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.