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Andrei Martyanov Andrew J. Bacevich Andrew Joyce Andrew Napolitano Boyd D. Cathey Brad Griffin C.J. Hopkins Chanda Chisala Eamonn Fingleton Eric Margolis Fred Reed Godfree Roberts Gustavo Arellano Ilana Mercer Israel Shamir James Kirkpatrick James Petras James Thompson Jared Taylor JayMan John Derbyshire John Pilger Jonathan Revusky Kevin MacDonald Linh Dinh Michael Hoffman Michael Hudson Mike Whitney Nathan Cofnas Norman Finkelstein Pat Buchanan Patrick Cockburn Paul Craig Roberts Paul Gottfried Paul Kersey Peter Frost Peter Lee Philip Giraldi Philip Weiss Robert Weissberg Ron Paul Ron Unz Stephen J. Sniegoski The Saker Tom Engelhardt A. Graham Adam Hochschild Aedon Cassiel Ahmet Öncü Alexander Cockburn Alexander Hart Alfred McCoy Alison Rose Levy Alison Weir Anand Gopal Andre Damon Andrew Cockburn Andrew Fraser Andy Kroll Ann Jones Anonymous Anthony DiMaggio Ariel Dorfman Arlie Russell Hochschild Arno Develay Arnold Isaacs Artem Zagorodnov Astra Taylor Austen Layard Aviva Chomsky Ayman Fadel Barbara Ehrenreich Barbara Garson Barbara Myers Barry Lando Belle Chesler Beverly Gologorsky Bill Black Bill Moyers Bob Dreyfuss Bonnie Faulkner Brenton Sanderson Brett Redmayne-Titley Brian Dew Carl Horowitz Catherine Crump Charles Bausman Charles Goodhart Charles Wood Charlotteville Survivor Chase Madar Chris Hedges Chris Roberts Christian Appy Christopher DeGroot Chuck Spinney Coleen Rowley Cooper Sterling Craig Murray Dahr Jamail Dan E. Phillips Dan Sanchez Daniel McAdams Danny Sjursen Dave Kranzler Dave Lindorff David Barsamian David Bromwich David Chibo David Gordon David North David Vine David Walsh David William Pear Dean Baker Dennis Saffran Diana Johnstone Dilip Hiro Dirk Bezemer Ed Warner Edmund Connelly Eduardo Galeano Ellen Cantarow Ellen Packer Ellison Lodge Eric Draitser Eric Zuesse Erik Edstrom Erika Eichelberger Erin L. Thompson Eugene Girin F. Roger Devlin Franklin Lamb Frida Berrigan Friedrich Zauner Gabriel Black Gary Corseri Gary North Gary Younge Gene Tuttle George Albert George Bogdanich George Szamuely Georgianne Nienaber Glenn Greenwald Greg Grandin Greg Johnson Gregoire Chamayou Gregory Foster Gregory Hood Gregory Wilpert Guest Admin Hannah Appel Hans-Hermann Hoppe Harri Honkanen Henry Cockburn Hina Shamsi Howard Zinn Hubert Collins Hugh McInnish Ira Chernus Jack Kerwick Jack Rasmus Jack Ravenwood Jack Sen James Bovard James Carroll James Fulford Jane Lazarre Jared S. Baumeister Jason C. Ditz Jason Kessler Jay Stanley Jeff J. Brown Jeffrey Blankfort Jeffrey St. Clair Jen Marlowe Jeremiah Goulka Jeremy Cooper Jesse Mossman Jim Daniel Jim Kavanagh JoAnn Wypijewski Joe Lauria Johannes Wahlstrom John W. Dower John Feffer John Fund John Harrison Sims John Reid John Stauber John Taylor John V. Walsh John Williams Jon Else Jonathan Alan King Jonathan Anomaly Jonathan Rooper Jonathan Schell Joseph Kishore Juan Cole Judith Coburn K.R. Bolton Karel Van Wolferen Karen Greenberg Kelley Vlahos Kersasp D. Shekhdar Kevin Barrett Kevin Zeese Kshama Sawant Lance Welton Laura Gottesdiener Laura Poitras Laurent Guyénot Lawrence G. Proulx Leo Hohmann Linda Preston Logical Meme Lorraine Barlett M.G. Miles Mac Deford Maidhc O Cathail Malcolm Unwell Marcus Alethia Marcus Cicero Margaret Flowers Mark Danner Mark Engler Mark Perry Matt Parrott Mattea Kramer Matthew Harwood Matthew Richer Matthew Stevenson Max Blumenthal Max Denken Max North Maya Schenwar Michael Gould-Wartofsky Michael Schwartz Michael T. Klare Murray Polner Nan Levinson Naomi Oreskes Nate Terani Ned Stark Nelson Rosit Nicholas Stix Nick Kollerstrom Nick Turse Noam Chomsky Nomi Prins Patrick Cleburne Patrick Cloutier Paul Cochrane Paul Engler Paul Nachman Paul Nehlen Pepe Escobar Peter Brimelow Peter Gemma Peter Van Buren Pierre M. Sprey Pratap Chatterjee Publius Decius Mus Rajan Menon Ralph Nader Ramin Mazaheri Ramziya Zaripova Randy Shields Ray McGovern Razib Khan Rebecca Gordon Rebecca Solnit Richard Krushnic Richard Silverstein Rick Shenkman Rita Rozhkova Robert Baxter Robert Bonomo Robert Fisk Robert Lipsyte Robert Parry Robert Roth Robert S. Griffin Robert Scheer Robert Trivers Robin Eastman Abaya Roger Dooghy Ronald N. Neff Rory Fanning Sam Francis Sam Husseini Sayed Hasan Sharmini Peries Sheldon Richman Spencer Davenport Spencer Quinn Stefan Karganovic Steffen A. Woll Stephanie Savell Stephen J. Rossi Steve Fraser Steven Yates Sydney Schanberg Tanya Golash-Boza Ted Rall Theodore A. Postol Thierry Meyssan Thomas Frank Thomas O. Meehan Tim Shorrock Tim Weiner Tobias Langdon Todd E. Pierce Todd Gitlin Todd Miller Tom Piatak Tom Suarez Tom Sunic Tracy Rosenberg Virginia Dare Vladimir Brovkin Vox Day W. Patrick Lang Walter Block William Binney William DeBuys William Hartung William J. Astore Winslow T. Wheeler Ximena Ortiz Yan Shen
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All Comments / On "Chanda Chisala"
 All Comments / On "Chanda Chisala"
    It is sad to hear from Chandra Chisala that our double act will no longer be available for hire, denying us both the prospect of a lecture tour, but if this really is his last word, that is a pity, because debates generally reveal new sources of data, and although personal positions rarely change immediately,...
  • @FKA Max

    then his headless body would be raped and eaten by jigaboos.

     

    This was getting out of hand... I am glad the moderators intervened. Thank
    you: http://www.unz.com/jthompson/chisalas-last-word/#comment-2109327

    I had some comment exchanges with this commenter, to try to better
    understand where he is coming from, etc. But I don't feel he debates (or
    jokes) in good faith (or in good humor):
    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/alma-mater-2018/#comment-2104452

    I found an interesting article/study concerning this:

    Black humour is sign of high intelligence, study suggests

    An appreciation of ‘sick jokes’ equates with high IQ and low aggression


    The findings contradict earlier theories about the relationship
    between aggression and humour. As early as 1905, Freud hypothesised that
    humour allows for a safe release of usually repressed sexual and aggressive
    urges.

    “This fits with past research showing that sense of humour correlates with
    IQ, but refutes the somewhat commonly-held belief that people who like
    black humour tend to be grumpy and perhaps a little prone to sadism
    ,”
    the digest said.

    Willinger and her team said their findings suggested that appreciating
    black humour was a “complex information-processing task” in which negative
    moods and high aggression levels could cloud people’s ability to get the
    joke.

     
    - https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jan/29/dark-humour-high-intelligence-study

    High aggression levels as displayed by commenter jorge videla (BGI
    volunteer)
    likely also cloud a person's perception as to how funny their
    own jokes/humor actually are/is. Not very funny, just kind of creepy and
    obsessive, in his case.

    Something like a Dunning-Kruger Effect for (black) humor. jorge
    videla (BGI volunteer)
    is the white Le’Genius Wisdom Williams of
    black humour:
    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/the-talk-nonblack-version/#comment-2092312

    http://www.skepticblog.org/wp-content/uploads/Dunning-Kruger.png

    Source: http://www.skepticblog.org/2013/06/26/the-dunning-kruger-effect/

    If commenter jorge videla (BGI volunteer) needs to get this bad taste
    black humour out of his system, maybe instead of commenting here at the
    Unz Review and creepily stalking Mr. Thompson, this communication
    technique comedian Trevor Moore developed could be a better option and of
    interest and help to him:

    Trevor Moore: High in Church - "Drunk Texts to Myself"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5wfioUjJk

    God, Buddha, JEW$$, Satan, Captain Planet, Oprah, everyone!!!!!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Lars Porsena
    They were suppose to be links to pictures, not pictures. I can't see them either but if you click on them it should work. At any rate both pictures were from the Wikipedia page on India.

    You need to link to the actual images (i.e. your link should ONLY show the image). This should do it:

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @jorge videla (BGI volunteer)
    thank God UCL charges so little to its psychology students.

    UCL's psychology students can work in the city (NOT!) and reconcile crazy people to the crazy society they live in, blighty (NOT!).

    in an ideal world james thompson would be guillotined.

    then his headless body would be raped and eaten by jigaboos.

    this comment has been saved and will be posted again...and again...and again...and again...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL_-bobJuYA

    He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Jeremy Corbyn.

    then his headless body would be raped and eaten by jigaboos.

    This was getting out of hand… I am glad the moderators intervened. Thank
    you: http://www.unz.com/jthompson/chisalas-last-word/#comment-2109327

    I had some comment exchanges with this commenter, to try to better
    understand where he is coming from, etc. But I don’t feel he debates (or
    jokes) in good faith (or in good humor):

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/alma-mater-2018/#comment-2104452

    I found an interesting article/study concerning this:

    Black humour is sign of high intelligence, study suggests

    An appreciation of ‘sick jokes’ equates with high IQ and low aggression

    [MORE]

    The findings contradict earlier theories about the relationship
    between aggression and humour. As early as 1905, Freud hypothesised that
    humour allows for a safe release of usually repressed sexual and aggressive
    urges.

    “This fits with past research showing that sense of humour correlates with
    IQ, but refutes the somewhat commonly-held belief that people who like
    black humour tend to be grumpy and perhaps a little prone to sadism
    ,”
    the digest said.

    Willinger and her team said their findings suggested that appreciating
    black humour was a “complex information-processing task” in which negative
    moods and high aggression levels could cloud people’s ability to get the
    joke.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jan/29/dark-humour-high-intelligence-study

    High aggression levels as displayed by commenter jorge videla (BGI
    volunteer)
    likely also cloud a person’s perception as to how funny their
    own jokes/humor actually are/is. Not very funny, just kind of creepy and
    obsessive, in his case.

    Something like a Dunning-Kruger Effect for (black) humor. jorge
    videla (BGI volunteer)
    is the white Le’Genius Wisdom Williams of
    black humour:

    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/the-talk-nonblack-version/#comment-2092312

    Source: http://www.skepticblog.org/2013/06/26/the-dunning-kruger-effect/

    If commenter jorge videla (BGI volunteer) needs to get this bad taste
    black humour out of his system, maybe instead of commenting here at the
    Unz Review and creepily stalking Mr. Thompson, this communication
    technique comedian Trevor Moore developed could be a better option and of
    interest and help to him:

    Trevor Moore: High in Church – “Drunk Texts to Myself”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    God, Buddha, JEW$$, Satan, Captain Planet, Oprah, everyone!!!!!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Santoculto
    Not in real life...

    Er yea he was. Read Joseph Graves’ and Judy Anderson’s rebuttals to him.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @RaceRealist88
    No in real life, in scientific journals.

    Not in real life…

    Read More
    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    Er yea he was. Read Joseph Graves' and Judy Anderson's rebuttals to him.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @PandaAtWar
    Oh? in video games?

    No in real life, in scientific journals.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Not in real life...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @jorge videla (BGI volunteer)
    family on both sides back to the 1600s.

    i am a direct descendant of william bradford.

    instead of ((( and ))) i think it should be...

    THATCHERjames thompsonTHATCHER

    CHINKS ARE SO F---ING CLUELESS IT'S...

    SAD!

    BECAUSE GENES.

    Don’t insult my ethnicity RACIST!!!

    PAN-ASIAPHILIA, right now!!!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Lars Porsena
    They were suppose to be links to pictures, not pictures. I can't see them either but if you click on them it should work. At any rate both pictures were from the Wikipedia page on India.

    Sorry, all I’m seeing is a blank white space, it could be my phone. No links or pics are visible to me.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @AaronB
    Ok, Panda, I've looked at your six questions and you're right, I can't really answer them.

    But I don't think I need to in order to make my claim that India has always produced some of the finest minds the world has known and continues to do so.

    I meant caste only in the sense of class, not in a racial sense.

    I doubt the Indian intellectual caste is racially distinguished - certainly they don't look any different from ordinary Indians.

    Whatever Aryan invasions happened long ago, the race mixing is probably total.

    In fact, I actually think ordinary Indians are intelligent and the state of the country is explained by India being the Land Of The Gods - i.e like all religious people, they don't see this world as worth taking very seriously at all, much less furiously building up.

    I've been to India like eight times, and I've never thought the average person there is stupid. They just want different things than we do.

    Aaaaaaaaaaron boy,

    i’m expecting your humble answers to my questions…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @jorge videla (BGI volunteer)
    as a full professor of class-ism of ER II's Cunt College London...

    i strongly suggest...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfCMtaNiMDM

    http://cdn3-www.dogtime.com/assets/uploads/gallery/airedale-terrier-dog-breed-pictures/1-play.jpg

    https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/somme-684945.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLvg0rjI6jQ

    Excess of pedigree….

    Mugabe’s pet shop…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @AaronB
    I can't see your pictures, but while India clearly has a diversity of types, like all countries, it doesn't track by class or caste.

    I've seen brahmins look exactly like any other caste.

    They were suppose to be links to pictures, not pictures. I can’t see them either but if you click on them it should work. At any rate both pictures were from the Wikipedia page on India.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Sorry, all I'm seeing is a blank white space, it could be my phone. No links or pics are visible to me.
    , @res
    You need to link to the actual images (i.e. your link should ONLY show the image). This should do it:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Prime_Minister_Narendra_Modi_and_President_Vladimir_Putin_greet_each_other_before_the_2017_Shanghai_Cooperation_Organisation_summit_in_Astana%2C_Kazakhstan.jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Sadhu_V%C3%A2r%C3%A2nas%C3%AE.jpg
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Lars Porsena
    These people don't look racially distinguishable?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prime_Minister_Narendra_Modi_and_President_Vladimir_Putin_greet_each_other_before_the_2017_Shanghai_Cooperation_Organisation_summit_in_Astana,_Kazakhstan.jpg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sadhu_V%C3%A2r%C3%A2nas%C3%AE.jpg

    Do Americans look racially distinguishable?

    I can’t see your pictures, but while India clearly has a diversity of types, like all countries, it doesn’t track by class or caste.

    I’ve seen brahmins look exactly like any other caste.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    They were suppose to be links to pictures, not pictures. I can't see them either but if you click on them it should work. At any rate both pictures were from the Wikipedia page on India.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @AaronB
    Ok, Panda, I've looked at your six questions and you're right, I can't really answer them.

    But I don't think I need to in order to make my claim that India has always produced some of the finest minds the world has known and continues to do so.

    I meant caste only in the sense of class, not in a racial sense.

    I doubt the Indian intellectual caste is racially distinguished - certainly they don't look any different from ordinary Indians.

    Whatever Aryan invasions happened long ago, the race mixing is probably total.

    In fact, I actually think ordinary Indians are intelligent and the state of the country is explained by India being the Land Of The Gods - i.e like all religious people, they don't see this world as worth taking very seriously at all, much less furiously building up.

    I've been to India like eight times, and I've never thought the average person there is stupid. They just want different things than we do.

    These people don’t look racially distinguishable?

    Do Americans look racially distinguishable?

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    I can't see your pictures, but while India clearly has a diversity of types, like all countries, it doesn't track by class or caste.

    I've seen brahmins look exactly like any other caste.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Lars Porsena

    As for plumbing, it is one of the glories of Indian civilization that it does not concern itself with such trivialities. Modern efficiency simply isn’t compatible with the life of the spirit.
     
    OK this I have to contest. That is shameless apologism. The Romans had indoor plumbing 2000 years ago and all manner of civilizations at least dug holes or went behind a bush. The issue is sanitation. It is not healthy to poop all over the street. India has all kinds of disease problems because of that. European cities had all kinds of disease problems when they use to just dump their chamber pots out the window into the gutter. And Europeans at least went in pots they didn't squat in the street. Pooping in the street is just dirty. As is pooping in the water supply or upstream of the water supply. You have to have separate rivers for incoming and outgoing.

    This actually is part of what creates Caste systems in places like India, you know. The upper castes do not want to touch the lower castes or shake their hand, it is because they wipe their ass with their hands and they carry diseases.

    Lars, I agree these things are problematic but you have to understand what mentality they arise from.

    Having been to India, I can’t defend the cleanliness of the country, but the Indian attitude towards the physical world is that of all religious people – we are wayfarers and pilgrims here, this earth is not our true home, and we shouldn’t focus on it.

    This is the same attitude as Europe had in the Middle Ages, and obviously it will lead to a physical environment that isn’t very clean or built up.

    Now in pre modern times it wasn’t so bad, but overpopulation caused by modern medicine, and the introduction of industrial products has led to severe degradation of the physical environment.

    Pre modern attitudes simply don’t mix well with modern methods and products, and many of the “horrors” of the Third World are because of that.

    A purely pre modern environment is actually not very bad. And a purely modern one isn’t bad. It’s these mixed types that are the problem.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @PandaAtWar

    We resolve the paradox of low average IQ scores in India partly by realizing that there are probably high IQ castes from which high achieving Indians are drawn from.
     
    Can't believe that you also seem to buy into this Hindu Nationalist BS of high IQ castes in India... LOL

    1. What are of these castes?

    2. Where they came from? (i.e. racially speaking, they're Mongoloid? Caucasoid? Negroid? or new-found Indiaroid? )

    3. How big are their underlying total populations respectively in India?

    4. What are their avg IQ respectively? (e.g. any IQ studies done there, or just again the legendary claim that "the richest and the most successful people in the US, hence avg 120+ IQ" ?)

    5. Why they are high? (e.g. are they "cold-selected" populations? They have unusally larger brain sizes than Mongoloid or Caucasoid? What are their corresponding maturation rates, personality traits, reproductive rates, etc.. all kinds of "JP Rushton measures" that fit in with their claimed IQ range? ...)

    6. How they are high? (e.g. they're high on verbal? or spatial? or both? compared to which standard?)

    ...

    Panda sees that Hindu nationalists are pretty successful on propagating the "high IQ castes" from India BS (compared to whom? to avg 82?), without even trying to present clear answers to any of above basic questions or the underlying rationale. Before that happens , high my paw! lol

    Ok, Panda, I’ve looked at your six questions and you’re right, I can’t really answer them.

    But I don’t think I need to in order to make my claim that India has always produced some of the finest minds the world has known and continues to do so.

    I meant caste only in the sense of class, not in a racial sense.

    I doubt the Indian intellectual caste is racially distinguished – certainly they don’t look any different from ordinary Indians.

    Whatever Aryan invasions happened long ago, the race mixing is probably total.

    In fact, I actually think ordinary Indians are intelligent and the state of the country is explained by India being the Land Of The Gods – i.e like all religious people, they don’t see this world as worth taking very seriously at all, much less furiously building up.

    I’ve been to India like eight times, and I’ve never thought the average person there is stupid. They just want different things than we do.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    These people don't look racially distinguishable?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prime_Minister_Narendra_Modi_and_President_Vladimir_Putin_greet_each_other_before_the_2017_Shanghai_Cooperation_Organisation_summit_in_Astana,_Kazakhstan.jpg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sadhu_V%C3%A2r%C3%A2nas%C3%AE.jpg

    Do Americans look racially distinguishable?
    , @Santoculto
    Aaaaaaaaaaron boy,

    i'm expecting your humble answers to my questions...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • [It's not good policy to provide numerous, content-free comments with pictures of dogs or such. Start providing serious content if you want your remarks published.]

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • as a full professor of class-ism of ER II’s Cunt College London…

    i strongly suggest…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Excess of pedigree....

    Mugabe's pet shop...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • family on both sides back to the 1600s.

    i am a direct descendant of william bradford.

    instead of ((( and ))) i think it should be…

    THATCHERjames thompsonTHATCHER

    CHINKS ARE SO F—ING CLUELESS IT’S…

    SAD!

    BECAUSE GENES.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Don't insult my ethnicity RACIST!!!

    PAN-ASIAPHILIA, right now!!!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @PandaAtWar
    lol

    is his name mikey cohen?

    no members of the tribe in my pedigree…

    thank God!

    (((HBD)))

    SAD!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @AaronB
    Panda, perhaps you are familiar with the most popular Chinese novel of all time, Journey To The West?

    It is a fantastical treatment of the Chinese monk Xuanzang's journey to India to recover Buddhist manuscripts.

    Your ancestors had the necessary humility to sit at the feet of India and drink deep of its wisdom, and this does immense credit to their intelligence and sagacity.

    They did the world an immense favor by helping preserve these works of timeless wisdom.

    You should do them reverence.

    As for plumbing, it is one of the glories of Indian civilization that it does not concern itself with such trivialities. Modern efficiency simply isn't compatible with the life of the spirit.

    I will answer your 6 related questions, Panda, with my 4 incontrovertible responses, but tomorrow, as I am a few whiskeys too deep right now.

    As for plumbing, it is one of the glories of Indian civilization that it does not concern itself with such trivialities. Modern efficiency simply isn’t compatible with the life of the spirit.

    OK this I have to contest. That is shameless apologism. The Romans had indoor plumbing 2000 years ago and all manner of civilizations at least dug holes or went behind a bush. The issue is sanitation. It is not healthy to poop all over the street. India has all kinds of disease problems because of that. European cities had all kinds of disease problems when they use to just dump their chamber pots out the window into the gutter. And Europeans at least went in pots they didn’t squat in the street. Pooping in the street is just dirty. As is pooping in the water supply or upstream of the water supply. You have to have separate rivers for incoming and outgoing.

    This actually is part of what creates Caste systems in places like India, you know. The upper castes do not want to touch the lower castes or shake their hand, it is because they wipe their ass with their hands and they carry diseases.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Lars, I agree these things are problematic but you have to understand what mentality they arise from.

    Having been to India, I can't defend the cleanliness of the country, but the Indian attitude towards the physical world is that of all religious people - we are wayfarers and pilgrims here, this earth is not our true home, and we shouldn't focus on it.

    This is the same attitude as Europe had in the Middle Ages, and obviously it will lead to a physical environment that isn't very clean or built up.

    Now in pre modern times it wasn't so bad, but overpopulation caused by modern medicine, and the introduction of industrial products has led to severe degradation of the physical environment.

    Pre modern attitudes simply don't mix well with modern methods and products, and many of the "horrors" of the Third World are because of that.

    A purely pre modern environment is actually not very bad. And a purely modern one isn't bad. It's these mixed types that are the problem.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @PandaAtWar

    Why do you think high caste indians who claim to have high IQs are contradicting themselves?
     
    ?

    Where you put them in that Line? choose a place there, then see is that place "high IQ" enough to you?

    PandaAtWar,

    First I can say that Rushton’s line is not some gospel or established indisputable scientific fact. They do not have to fit into it, if they don’t fit, that means the line is wrong not them.

    But the line is not terrible so let’s look in terms of that line with those 3.

    Where do upper caste indians fit on the line. Fit compared to whom? When it comes to upper caste indians the first comparison is to other indian castes. Does New York complain that North Carolina is a misnomer because it is south? It is the northern most of the Carolinas. So you compare it to the other castes to determine if it has a higher IQ then the other castes.

    But you are asking where it fits in globally with caucasians and asians. OK which mongoloids, the Outer Mongolians, the Uyghurs and the Hmong? All those 3 are mongoloid. Where do upper caste Indians compare to them? I don’t know but they could be smarter. They are definitely more civilizationally accomplished.

    Historically, hereditarally, culturally, where do they fall on the line? In India it would be ungodly complicated and really depend. It is a very diverse and multicultural place that has been settled by caucasoids, mongoloids and australoids and all sorts of various mixtures. I guess that is the point, you would expect them to be all over that line because they come from all 3 places historically and genetically.

    India is a subcontinent. In all of it’s entire human history it has never been entirely occupied by 1 homogeneous people or ever ruled by 1 culture and government until the British took it over and created the Raj, and British India also included Pakistan and Bangladesh.

    From what (media reports of) genetic testing I have seen, Bangladeshis are actually considerably more mongoloid than most. And Alexander the Great conquered and Hellenized parts of Pakistan.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @PandaAtWar
    Ancient "Indian"= Modern Indian?

    Remember, all of East Asia had to borrow their religion from India
     
    Really? Sorry, but Panda doesn't remember that.

    As someone who has studied Indian thought I have zero doubt India has a supremely capable intellectual caste
     

    .

    Then try to answer Panda's 6 related questions in post 21. Piece of cake, right?

    In fact, Panda doesn't see any miracle or major achievement, economic, intellectual or otherwise (not even indoor-plumbing has been tackled properly yet), coming from a supposely supremely capable intellectual caste that has enjoyed the allround supreme treatments in India's caste-based society where there has been no Mao/ Soviet/NK - style communism or massive all-out wars in almost a century.

    Where could go wrong Panda wonders? This supremely capable intellectual castemust have been hiding under a huge rock meditating a secret form of Yoga meantime, eh?

    Panda, perhaps you are familiar with the most popular Chinese novel of all time, Journey To The West?

    It is a fantastical treatment of the Chinese monk Xuanzang’s journey to India to recover Buddhist manuscripts.

    Your ancestors had the necessary humility to sit at the feet of India and drink deep of its wisdom, and this does immense credit to their intelligence and sagacity.

    They did the world an immense favor by helping preserve these works of timeless wisdom.

    You should do them reverence.

    As for plumbing, it is one of the glories of Indian civilization that it does not concern itself with such trivialities. Modern efficiency simply isn’t compatible with the life of the spirit.

    I will answer your 6 related questions, Panda, with my 4 incontrovertible responses, but tomorrow, as I am a few whiskeys too deep right now.

    Read More
    • Troll: utu
    • Replies: @Lars Porsena

    As for plumbing, it is one of the glories of Indian civilization that it does not concern itself with such trivialities. Modern efficiency simply isn’t compatible with the life of the spirit.
     
    OK this I have to contest. That is shameless apologism. The Romans had indoor plumbing 2000 years ago and all manner of civilizations at least dug holes or went behind a bush. The issue is sanitation. It is not healthy to poop all over the street. India has all kinds of disease problems because of that. European cities had all kinds of disease problems when they use to just dump their chamber pots out the window into the gutter. And Europeans at least went in pots they didn't squat in the street. Pooping in the street is just dirty. As is pooping in the water supply or upstream of the water supply. You have to have separate rivers for incoming and outgoing.

    This actually is part of what creates Caste systems in places like India, you know. The upper castes do not want to touch the lower castes or shake their hand, it is because they wipe their ass with their hands and they carry diseases.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @jorge videla (BGI volunteer)
    i have a cousin who is chair in class-ism at mushy peas college london.

    he's taught me every thing i know about blighty.

    lol

    is his name mikey cohen?

    Read More
    • Replies: @jorge videla (BGI volunteer)
    no members of the tribe in my pedigree...

    thank God!

    (((HBD)))

    SAD!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Lars Porsena
    Australoid is australoid, it isn't negroid. Indian peoples are (depending on which) combinations of caucasoid, australoid and mongoloid. Mainly the first 2 for most of them. Ostensibly all the other central asian peoples who aren't caucasoid or mongoloid are also australoid, for instance Turkic peoples. The southern mongoloids in SE asia, who are a bit darker, are also supposedly part australoid.

    Negroid is pretty isolated and possibly rather new. Bantu expansion to take over Africa from the pygmies only happened about 1-2 thousand years ago. And the pygmy are not really negroid or any other oid, they are a small number of people not a major group but supposedly genetic testing puts them as totally unrelated to other black africans and quite distinct from the rest of humanity. Pygmoid, essentially. It's not a "major" group because there are probably only tens to hundreds of thousands of them in total. But pure pygmies are supposedly no closer related to modern Bantu africans than they are to Swedes and Koreans.

    Why do you think high caste indians who claim to have high IQs are contradicting themselves?

    Why do you think high caste indians who claim to have high IQs are contradicting themselves?

    ?

    Where you put them in that Line? choose a place there, then see is that place “high IQ” enough to you?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    PandaAtWar,

    First I can say that Rushton's line is not some gospel or established indisputable scientific fact. They do not have to fit into it, if they don't fit, that means the line is wrong not them.

    But the line is not terrible so let's look in terms of that line with those 3.

    Where do upper caste indians fit on the line. Fit compared to whom? When it comes to upper caste indians the first comparison is to other indian castes. Does New York complain that North Carolina is a misnomer because it is south? It is the northern most of the Carolinas. So you compare it to the other castes to determine if it has a higher IQ then the other castes.

    But you are asking where it fits in globally with caucasians and asians. OK which mongoloids, the Outer Mongolians, the Uyghurs and the Hmong? All those 3 are mongoloid. Where do upper caste Indians compare to them? I don't know but they could be smarter. They are definitely more civilizationally accomplished.

    Historically, hereditarally, culturally, where do they fall on the line? In India it would be ungodly complicated and really depend. It is a very diverse and multicultural place that has been settled by caucasoids, mongoloids and australoids and all sorts of various mixtures. I guess that is the point, you would expect them to be all over that line because they come from all 3 places historically and genetically.

    India is a subcontinent. In all of it's entire human history it has never been entirely occupied by 1 homogeneous people or ever ruled by 1 culture and government until the British took it over and created the Raj, and British India also included Pakistan and Bangladesh.

    From what (media reports of) genetic testing I have seen, Bangladeshis are actually considerably more mongoloid than most. And Alexander the Great conquered and Hellenized parts of Pakistan.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @RaceRealist88
    >still pushing Rushton's r/K bullshit

    Rushton has been destroyed numerous times.

    Oh? in video games?

    Read More
    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    No in real life, in scientific journals.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @AaronB
    Ancient Indian metaphysicians produced some of the most subtle thinking anywhere, whatever you think of its practical value.

    Remember, all of East Asia had to borrow their religion from India. The Chinese would send monks on perilous journeys across deserts and mountains to recover as much of this rich and subtle Indian thought as they could, so impressed were they with it, and this at a time when India's population was a fraction of what it it is now.

    As someone who has studied Indian thought I have zero doubt India has a supremely capable intellectual caste.

    I find it hard to believe anyone could seriously doubt this considering the many fine intellects India has produced even in modern times.

    Ancient “Indian”= Modern Indian?

    Remember, all of East Asia had to borrow their religion from India

    Really? Sorry, but Panda doesn’t remember that.

    As someone who has studied Indian thought I have zero doubt India has a supremely capable intellectual caste

    .

    Then try to answer Panda’s 6 related questions in post 21. Piece of cake, right?

    In fact, Panda doesn’t see any miracle or major achievement, economic, intellectual or otherwise (not even indoor-plumbing has been tackled properly yet), coming from a supposely supremely capable intellectual caste that has enjoyed the allround supreme treatments in India’s caste-based society where there has been no Mao/ Soviet/NK – style communism or massive all-out wars in almost a century.

    Where could go wrong Panda wonders? This supremely capable intellectual castemust have been hiding under a huge rock meditating a secret form of Yoga meantime, eh?

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Panda, perhaps you are familiar with the most popular Chinese novel of all time, Journey To The West?

    It is a fantastical treatment of the Chinese monk Xuanzang's journey to India to recover Buddhist manuscripts.

    Your ancestors had the necessary humility to sit at the feet of India and drink deep of its wisdom, and this does immense credit to their intelligence and sagacity.

    They did the world an immense favor by helping preserve these works of timeless wisdom.

    You should do them reverence.

    As for plumbing, it is one of the glories of Indian civilization that it does not concern itself with such trivialities. Modern efficiency simply isn't compatible with the life of the spirit.

    I will answer your 6 related questions, Panda, with my 4 incontrovertible responses, but tomorrow, as I am a few whiskeys too deep right now.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • i have a cousin who is chair in class-ism at mushy peas college london.

    he’s taught me every thing i know about blighty.

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    lol

    is his name mikey cohen?
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  • @Yan Shen
    If we assume average IQ 82, SD 15, population 1,300,000,000, there would only be roughly 910,000 people with IQ 130 or higher. At IQ 140 that drops to about 130,000.

    My guess is that most truly accomplished individuals have an IQ of probably at least 3-4 SD. 130-140 IQ seems to me to be more of your normal smart person. Think for instance of people who graduate from a good school and work in tech or finance.

    There are over 4 million Indian Americans alone in this country and given the significant numbers of high end talent, it's hard to reconcile that against a global base population of 910,000 people with 130+ IQ or 130,000+ people with 140+ IQ, given that these thresholds are not particularly high. The numbers don't add up if you ask me.

    I believe the other advantage of positing elite racial subgroups is that it deals with issues such as regression to the mean, where for instance 2nd generation children of such elite individuals perform better than expected given regression to the mean, since they would not be regressing to the overall Indian mean of 82, etc.

    130-140 IQ seems to me to be more of your normal smart person.

    Perhaps this basic assumption of yours is overdone. Try lossen it a bit to 120, or even 110. Don’t look down on 110 which, for instance, is almost 1 SD above American mean.

    By my own experiences, Panda can train almost any normal 110IQ person into a bit sophisticated junior investment banker within half an year from scratch, regardless his major in uni. Panda sees that a person with IQ in the 130 range could be sufficient enough to be a regular STEM professor, or most social sciences, in a regular university… a regular law, auditing, talk show, editor, stats, or social science-related profession with a decently high social statue, however, requires way lower than 130 IQ range.

    Many other issues as well such as net income or social fame is not correlated that high with IQ. Panda sees even many public company CEOs have IQ WAY lower than 130, let alone directors, managers, team leaders, etc ..

    All these make your “normal smart person” threshold , 910,000 figure, severely underestimated.

    The numbers don’t add up if you ask me.

    Hence can’t see why the numbers don’t add up.

    In the objective reality, either the number must add up more or less, or we are facing a major breakthrough in finding an entirely new major race of humanity, no other explaination, and Panda doubts it’s the latter.

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  • @Yan Shen
    If we assume average IQ 82, SD 15, population 1,300,000,000, there would only be roughly 910,000 people with IQ 130 or higher. At IQ 140 that drops to about 130,000.

    My guess is that most truly accomplished individuals have an IQ of probably at least 3-4 SD. 130-140 IQ seems to me to be more of your normal smart person. Think for instance of people who graduate from a good school and work in tech or finance.

    There are over 4 million Indian Americans alone in this country and given the significant numbers of high end talent, it's hard to reconcile that against a global base population of 910,000 people with 130+ IQ or 130,000+ people with 140+ IQ, given that these thresholds are not particularly high. The numbers don't add up if you ask me.

    I believe the other advantage of positing elite racial subgroups is that it deals with issues such as regression to the mean, where for instance 2nd generation children of such elite individuals perform better than expected given regression to the mean, since they would not be regressing to the overall Indian mean of 82, etc.

    truly accomplished individuals

    Define that and not in the SAT, IQ test sense of the word. Madonna is no dummy and I believe her IQ is around 130. Not significantly high but very few singers have been as successful as her.

    Nobody thinks IQ is everything. There are a lot of other factors that lead to success and many of them have nothing to do with IQ. If your dad was a physician, there is a good chance you can become one even if you and he aren’t all that smart. You don’t have to have an IQ of 160 to occasionally come up with an idea that is a home run in the real world.

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  • Ancient Indian metaphysicians produced some of the most subtle thinking anywhere, whatever you think of its practical value.

    Remember, all of East Asia had to borrow their religion from India. The Chinese would send monks on perilous journeys across deserts and mountains to recover as much of this rich and subtle Indian thought as they could, so impressed were they with it, and this at a time when India’s population was a fraction of what it it is now.

    As someone who has studied Indian thought I have zero doubt India has a supremely capable intellectual caste.

    I find it hard to believe anyone could seriously doubt this considering the many fine intellects India has produced even in modern times.

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    Ancient "Indian"= Modern Indian?

    Remember, all of East Asia had to borrow their religion from India
     
    Really? Sorry, but Panda doesn't remember that.

    As someone who has studied Indian thought I have zero doubt India has a supremely capable intellectual caste
     

    .

    Then try to answer Panda's 6 related questions in post 21. Piece of cake, right?

    In fact, Panda doesn't see any miracle or major achievement, economic, intellectual or otherwise (not even indoor-plumbing has been tackled properly yet), coming from a supposely supremely capable intellectual caste that has enjoyed the allround supreme treatments in India's caste-based society where there has been no Mao/ Soviet/NK - style communism or massive all-out wars in almost a century.

    Where could go wrong Panda wonders? This supremely capable intellectual castemust have been hiding under a huge rock meditating a secret form of Yoga meantime, eh?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @PandaAtWar
    The point here is what-Panda-called Rushton's 3-point-Line:

    Negroid and Mongoloid are at the 2 sides, with Caucasoid in between yet somewhere closer to Mongoloid.

    (australoid may be somewhere closer to Negroid, yet it doesn't matter, really.)

    It's a powerfully predictive line, because not only IQ, but also almost all the major physical characteristics and personal traits of these 3 groups fall into this line.

    The problem for the claim of "High castes High IQ Indians" is that no matter where they put them within that Line, they're self-contradicting themselves.

    The only chance that they could self-claim as such would be to completely destroy JP Rushton to start with.

    >still pushing Rushton’s r/K bullshit

    Rushton has been destroyed numerous times.

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    Oh? in video games?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Svigor

    Quite easy to reconcile: top 0.1% or 1% of the right side of the bell curve of 1.3 billion are a huge number, pretty straightforward really.
     
    Indeed. I happen to agree that there's probably strong caste stratification by IQ in India, but it isn't necessitated by the observation that there's a relatively small number of high-achieving Indians fleeing India.

    Not quite. See my numbers above. The problem with a normal distribution is that it becomes exponentially less likely to observe talent the further out along the tail you go, or something like that.

    Using average 82, SD 15, and base population of 1,300,000,000 only yields roughly 910,000+ IQ 130, roughly 130,000+ IQ 140. These are relatively low cognitive thresholds.

    There are 4 million Indian Americans alone in this country and there seems to be fair number of high end talent from that population. In my opinions the numbers don’t line up with the assumptions above. Plus, as James linked to in his comment, there’s certainly evidence suggesting racial heterogeneity in India. My argument is that if we assume that a lesser version of that exists in sub-Saharan Africa, we may be able to explain many of the data points Chanda has thrown out.

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  • @PandaAtWar

    How else would you reconcile India’s abysmally low performance on national IQ tests or PISA with the clear and obvious fact of elite Indian talent, particularly in America
     
    Quite easy to reconcile: top 0.1% or 1% of the right side of the bell curve of 1.3 billion are a huge number, pretty straightforward really.

    Actually if you take the top 0.1% or even 1% (de facto implemented by H1B1-alike visa policy) of any country with a sizable population (e.g. Vietnam, Russia, Nigeria, or even Germany, Poland, let alone India) , regardless her population average IQ, this group of people would be IQ-ready to excel compared to the average of almost any host country, as long as the former country has a reasonable indegenious culture of emphasising on learning & education. That's just simple maths.

    The question now are :

    1. will Vietnam, Russia, Nigeria, Germany and Poland all have "high IQ castes" as well a-la-India-standard?
    2.And what race/s are they?
    3. e.g. How much richer and more eliter, will Russian Americans be, compared to Indian Americans, if the former must also be on H1B1, aka top 1% or so.

    The underlying racial rationale is also straightforward:

    There're 3 major races in the world. Pretty sure that almost 100% of "elite Indian talents in America" don't fall into Negroid or Mongoloid categories.

    Unless a new race is discovered (Indiaroid?) , these people are either Caucasoid or some kind of mixed, which by definition have average IQ somewhere below the European standard 100 for sure (assuming JP Rushton is not completely BSing his data in Race, evolution, and behavior) , except, of course, that these Indians are actually East Asian-European mixed whom they don't look like.

    Simple.

    Therefore, Panda wonders which standard we're talking about, given that "castes" of average IQ somewhere below 100 are defined as "high iq castes" here?

    If we assume average IQ 82, SD 15, population 1,300,000,000, there would only be roughly 910,000 people with IQ 130 or higher. At IQ 140 that drops to about 130,000.

    My guess is that most truly accomplished individuals have an IQ of probably at least 3-4 SD. 130-140 IQ seems to me to be more of your normal smart person. Think for instance of people who graduate from a good school and work in tech or finance.

    There are over 4 million Indian Americans alone in this country and given the significant numbers of high end talent, it’s hard to reconcile that against a global base population of 910,000 people with 130+ IQ or 130,000+ people with 140+ IQ, given that these thresholds are not particularly high. The numbers don’t add up if you ask me.

    I believe the other advantage of positing elite racial subgroups is that it deals with issues such as regression to the mean, where for instance 2nd generation children of such elite individuals perform better than expected given regression to the mean, since they would not be regressing to the overall Indian mean of 82, etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    truly accomplished individuals

    Define that and not in the SAT, IQ test sense of the word. Madonna is no dummy and I believe her IQ is around 130. Not significantly high but very few singers have been as successful as her.

    Nobody thinks IQ is everything. There are a lot of other factors that lead to success and many of them have nothing to do with IQ. If your dad was a physician, there is a good chance you can become one even if you and he aren't all that smart. You don't have to have an IQ of 160 to occasionally come up with an idea that is a home run in the real world.
    , @PandaAtWar

    130-140 IQ seems to me to be more of your normal smart person.
     
    Perhaps this basic assumption of yours is overdone. Try lossen it a bit to 120, or even 110. Don't look down on 110 which, for instance, is almost 1 SD above American mean.

    By my own experiences, Panda can train almost any normal 110IQ person into a bit sophisticated junior investment banker within half an year from scratch, regardless his major in uni. Panda sees that a person with IQ in the 130 range could be sufficient enough to be a regular STEM professor, or most social sciences, in a regular university... a regular law, auditing, talk show, editor, stats, or social science-related profession with a decently high social statue, however, requires way lower than 130 IQ range.

    Many other issues as well such as net income or social fame is not correlated that high with IQ. Panda sees even many public company CEOs have IQ WAY lower than 130, let alone directors, managers, team leaders, etc ..

    All these make your "normal smart person" threshold , 910,000 figure, severely underestimated.

    The numbers don’t add up if you ask me.
     
    Hence can't see why the numbers don't add up.

    In the objective reality, either the number must add up more or less, or we are facing a major breakthrough in finding an entirely new major race of humanity, no other explaination, and Panda doubts it's the latter.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Yan Shen
    Yeah, my personal suspicion is that sub-Saharan Africa is a lesser version of India and that potentially elite subgroups such as the Igbo, while obviously not on the same level as high IQ upper castes in India, probably excel relative to other groups on the African continent. Of course I'm only speculating as a relatively ignorant layman here, but I uh suspect that thinking along these lines would probably help to explain some of the data points Chanda cites. I would be surprised if treating the entire continent as a monolithic entity with average IQ of 70 is the correct way of understanding the situation.

    the Igbo, while obviously not on the same level as high IQ upper castes in India,

    Well let’s let Chandra address that himself.

    http://newsrescue.com/blacks-especially-igbos-prove-more-intelligent-than-whites-including-the-asian-leaders/#axzz50bgTysQW

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  • @PandaAtWar
    The point here is what-Panda-called Rushton's 3-point-Line:

    Negroid and Mongoloid are at the 2 sides, with Caucasoid in between yet somewhere closer to Mongoloid.

    (australoid may be somewhere closer to Negroid, yet it doesn't matter, really.)

    It's a powerfully predictive line, because not only IQ, but also almost all the major physical characteristics and personal traits of these 3 groups fall into this line.

    The problem for the claim of "High castes High IQ Indians" is that no matter where they put them within that Line, they're self-contradicting themselves.

    The only chance that they could self-claim as such would be to completely destroy JP Rushton to start with.

    Australoid is australoid, it isn’t negroid. Indian peoples are (depending on which) combinations of caucasoid, australoid and mongoloid. Mainly the first 2 for most of them. Ostensibly all the other central asian peoples who aren’t caucasoid or mongoloid are also australoid, for instance Turkic peoples. The southern mongoloids in SE asia, who are a bit darker, are also supposedly part australoid.

    Negroid is pretty isolated and possibly rather new. Bantu expansion to take over Africa from the pygmies only happened about 1-2 thousand years ago. And the pygmy are not really negroid or any other oid, they are a small number of people not a major group but supposedly genetic testing puts them as totally unrelated to other black africans and quite distinct from the rest of humanity. Pygmoid, essentially. It’s not a “major” group because there are probably only tens to hundreds of thousands of them in total. But pure pygmies are supposedly no closer related to modern Bantu africans than they are to Swedes and Koreans.

    Why do you think high caste indians who claim to have high IQs are contradicting themselves?

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar

    Why do you think high caste indians who claim to have high IQs are contradicting themselves?
     
    ?

    Where you put them in that Line? choose a place there, then see is that place "high IQ" enough to you?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @MarkinLA
    If one day, the US changes her foreign policy and lures the top 1% or 5% of Iran’s bell curve go to work in the US via H1B1, wouldn’t these Iranians become the newest “high IQ caste”in America? Or we would be deeply puzzled that how to reconcile these brilliant Iranians talents with Iran’s avg 86 IQ?

    Actually, there are a lot of refugges from the days of the Shah and many of them are quite successful. The problem is that many are likely indentifying as their religion or ethnicity (Armenian versus Persian) and not country of origin. They probably do not represent such a large group that the US tracks them independently. I would bet that as a group their income is above that of Indians.

    Yep, used to hear a lot about them and Beverly Hills… lol

    Actually, Panda’s best guess of avg IQ of Indian “high castes” ( literally means the average IQ of these ” high castes” Indians in both America and India) could be somewhere between mid/high 80s to low 90s, about somewhere >= the Iranians to <= the Southern Med Euros.

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  • @Lars Porsena

    There’re 3 major races in the world. Pretty sure that almost 100% of “elite Indian talents in America” don’t fall into Negroid or Mongoloid categories.
     
    There is at least 4, it's not indiaroid it's australoid.

    The point here is what-Panda-called Rushton’s 3-point-Line:

    Negroid and Mongoloid are at the 2 sides, with Caucasoid in between yet somewhere closer to Mongoloid.

    (australoid may be somewhere closer to Negroid, yet it doesn’t matter, really.)

    It’s a powerfully predictive line, because not only IQ, but also almost all the major physical characteristics and personal traits of these 3 groups fall into this line.

    The problem for the claim of “High castes High IQ Indians” is that no matter where they put them within that Line, they’re self-contradicting themselves.

    The only chance that they could self-claim as such would be to completely destroy JP Rushton to start with.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    Australoid is australoid, it isn't negroid. Indian peoples are (depending on which) combinations of caucasoid, australoid and mongoloid. Mainly the first 2 for most of them. Ostensibly all the other central asian peoples who aren't caucasoid or mongoloid are also australoid, for instance Turkic peoples. The southern mongoloids in SE asia, who are a bit darker, are also supposedly part australoid.

    Negroid is pretty isolated and possibly rather new. Bantu expansion to take over Africa from the pygmies only happened about 1-2 thousand years ago. And the pygmy are not really negroid or any other oid, they are a small number of people not a major group but supposedly genetic testing puts them as totally unrelated to other black africans and quite distinct from the rest of humanity. Pygmoid, essentially. It's not a "major" group because there are probably only tens to hundreds of thousands of them in total. But pure pygmies are supposedly no closer related to modern Bantu africans than they are to Swedes and Koreans.

    Why do you think high caste indians who claim to have high IQs are contradicting themselves?
    , @RaceRealist88
    >still pushing Rushton's r/K bullshit

    Rushton has been destroyed numerous times.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @PandaAtWar
    Heterogeneity of ethnicities does not necessarily imply the existence of huge IQ gaps per se, does it?

    It alone can not be taken as a sufficient proof that avg IQ of self-claimed "high castes" are so much higher than so-called "low-castes".

    Indian's "high castes" at their "purest" by looks are about likes of the modern Iranians, who have avg IQ of about 86.

    If one day, the US changes her foreign policy and lures the top 1% or 5% of Iran's bell curve go to work in the US via H1B1, wouldn't these Iranians become the newest "high IQ caste"in America? Or we would be deeply puzzled that how to reconcile these brilliant Iranians talents with Iran's avg 86 IQ?

    If one day, the US changes her foreign policy and lures the top 1% or 5% of Iran’s bell curve go to work in the US via H1B1, wouldn’t these Iranians become the newest “high IQ caste”in America? Or we would be deeply puzzled that how to reconcile these brilliant Iranians talents with Iran’s avg 86 IQ?

    Actually, there are a lot of refugges from the days of the Shah and many of them are quite successful. The problem is that many are likely indentifying as their religion or ethnicity (Armenian versus Persian) and not country of origin. They probably do not represent such a large group that the US tracks them independently. I would bet that as a group their income is above that of Indians.

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    Yep, used to hear a lot about them and Beverly Hills... lol

    Actually, Panda's best guess of avg IQ of Indian "high castes" ( literally means the average IQ of these " high castes" Indians in both America and India) could be somewhere between mid/high 80s to low 90s, about somewhere >= the Iranians to <= the Southern Med Euros.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • There’re 3 major races in the world. Pretty sure that almost 100% of “elite Indian talents in America” don’t fall into Negroid or Mongoloid categories.

    There is at least 4, it’s not indiaroid it’s australoid.

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    The point here is what-Panda-called Rushton's 3-point-Line:

    Negroid and Mongoloid are at the 2 sides, with Caucasoid in between yet somewhere closer to Mongoloid.

    (australoid may be somewhere closer to Negroid, yet it doesn't matter, really.)

    It's a powerfully predictive line, because not only IQ, but also almost all the major physical characteristics and personal traits of these 3 groups fall into this line.

    The problem for the claim of "High castes High IQ Indians" is that no matter where they put them within that Line, they're self-contradicting themselves.

    The only chance that they could self-claim as such would be to completely destroy JP Rushton to start with.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Quite easy to reconcile: top 0.1% or 1% of the right side of the bell curve of 1.3 billion are a huge number, pretty straightforward really.

    Indeed. I happen to agree that there’s probably strong caste stratification by IQ in India, but it isn’t necessitated by the observation that there’s a relatively small number of high-achieving Indians fleeing India.

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    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Not quite. See my numbers above. The problem with a normal distribution is that it becomes exponentially less likely to observe talent the further out along the tail you go, or something like that.

    Using average 82, SD 15, and base population of 1,300,000,000 only yields roughly 910,000+ IQ 130, roughly 130,000+ IQ 140. These are relatively low cognitive thresholds.

    There are 4 million Indian Americans alone in this country and there seems to be fair number of high end talent from that population. In my opinions the numbers don't line up with the assumptions above. Plus, as James linked to in his comment, there's certainly evidence suggesting racial heterogeneity in India. My argument is that if we assume that a lesser version of that exists in sub-Saharan Africa, we may be able to explain many of the data points Chanda has thrown out.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @James Thompson
    As you say regarding India, it is a plausible explanation that there is a great deal of heterogeneity, and in some cases that is amplified by the degree of cousin marriage.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-heterogeneous-states-of-india

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/more-sex-cousin

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/inbreeding-two-tribes

    Heterogeneity of ethnicities does not necessarily imply the existence of huge IQ gaps per se, does it?

    It alone can not be taken as a sufficient proof that avg IQ of self-claimed “high castes” are so much higher than so-called “low-castes”.

    Indian’s “high castes” at their “purest” by looks are about likes of the modern Iranians, who have avg IQ of about 86.

    If one day, the US changes her foreign policy and lures the top 1% or 5% of Iran’s bell curve go to work in the US via H1B1, wouldn’t these Iranians become the newest “high IQ caste”in America? Or we would be deeply puzzled that how to reconcile these brilliant Iranians talents with Iran’s avg 86 IQ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    If one day, the US changes her foreign policy and lures the top 1% or 5% of Iran’s bell curve go to work in the US via H1B1, wouldn’t these Iranians become the newest “high IQ caste”in America? Or we would be deeply puzzled that how to reconcile these brilliant Iranians talents with Iran’s avg 86 IQ?

    Actually, there are a lot of refugges from the days of the Shah and many of them are quite successful. The problem is that many are likely indentifying as their religion or ethnicity (Armenian versus Persian) and not country of origin. They probably do not represent such a large group that the US tracks them independently. I would bet that as a group their income is above that of Indians.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • How else would you reconcile India’s abysmally low performance on national IQ tests or PISA with the clear and obvious fact of elite Indian talent, particularly in America? Various commenters in the HBD blogosphere have attempted to answer the questions you’ve posed above. That clear answers to these questions may not yet be known hardly negates the hypothesis I’ve offered. I myself don’t claim to be a uh expert on the matter.

    Doesn’t India have over a billion people now? You’d think that such an enormous population could produce a few hundred thousand or million high-achievers, all of whom would be motivated to leave India. The issue of caste doesn’t seem necessary at all.

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  • Off-topic.

    To: Mr. Thompson and/or the Unz Review moderators

    The image for this article titled “empty podia” seems to be broken or not display properly.

    This is the case for the image on one of Mr. Thompson’s other articles as well:

    The thumbnail picture for Mr. Thompson’s article “Small Incident in London, Not Many Dead” seems to be broken, as can be seen here (it is the 6th ranked article on that page): http://www.unz.com/author/james-thompson/?ItemSorts=comment_count

    http://www.unz.com/announcement/server-crash/#comment-2074360

    Thank you.

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  • @Yan Shen
    How else would you reconcile India's abysmally low performance on national IQ tests or PISA with the clear and obvious fact of elite Indian talent, particularly in America? Various commenters in the HBD blogosphere have attempted to answer the questions you've posed above. That clear answers to these questions may not yet be known hardly negates the hypothesis I've offered. I myself don't claim to be a uh expert on the matter.

    I'm merely positing that sub-Saharan Africa is a lesser version of India, so to speak. Certain ethnic groups such as the Igbo seem to excel relative to other Africans, although they're still clearly not at the same level as say elite Indians. However when stories of relatively intelligent African immigrants disproportionately reveal that such individuals are Igbo from Nigeria or the likes, it's not unreasonable to speculate that a similar albeit lesser phenomenon like in India may be at work in Africa. It seems to me that this would also resolve many of the empirical data points under discussion here.

    How else would you reconcile India’s abysmally low performance on national IQ tests or PISA with the clear and obvious fact of elite Indian talent, particularly in America

    Quite easy to reconcile: top 0.1% or 1% of the right side of the bell curve of 1.3 billion are a huge number, pretty straightforward really.

    Actually if you take the top 0.1% or even 1% (de facto implemented by H1B1-alike visa policy) of any country with a sizable population (e.g. Vietnam, Russia, Nigeria, or even Germany, Poland, let alone India) , regardless her population average IQ, this group of people would be IQ-ready to excel compared to the average of almost any host country, as long as the former country has a reasonable indegenious culture of emphasising on learning & education. That’s just simple maths.

    The question now are :

    1. will Vietnam, Russia, Nigeria, Germany and Poland all have “high IQ castes” as well a-la-India-standard?
    2.And what race/s are they?
    3. e.g. How much richer and more eliter, will Russian Americans be, compared to Indian Americans, if the former must also be on H1B1, aka top 1% or so.

    The underlying racial rationale is also straightforward:

    There’re 3 major races in the world. Pretty sure that almost 100% of “elite Indian talents in America” don’t fall into Negroid or Mongoloid categories.

    Unless a new race is discovered (Indiaroid?) , these people are either Caucasoid or some kind of mixed, which by definition have average IQ somewhere below the European standard 100 for sure (assuming JP Rushton is not completely BSing his data in Race, evolution, and behavior) , except, of course, that these Indians are actually East Asian-European mixed whom they don’t look like.

    Simple.

    Therefore, Panda wonders which standard we’re talking about, given that “castes” of average IQ somewhere below 100 are defined as “high iq castes” here?

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    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    If we assume average IQ 82, SD 15, population 1,300,000,000, there would only be roughly 910,000 people with IQ 130 or higher. At IQ 140 that drops to about 130,000.

    My guess is that most truly accomplished individuals have an IQ of probably at least 3-4 SD. 130-140 IQ seems to me to be more of your normal smart person. Think for instance of people who graduate from a good school and work in tech or finance.

    There are over 4 million Indian Americans alone in this country and given the significant numbers of high end talent, it's hard to reconcile that against a global base population of 910,000 people with 130+ IQ or 130,000+ people with 140+ IQ, given that these thresholds are not particularly high. The numbers don't add up if you ask me.

    I believe the other advantage of positing elite racial subgroups is that it deals with issues such as regression to the mean, where for instance 2nd generation children of such elite individuals perform better than expected given regression to the mean, since they would not be regressing to the overall Indian mean of 82, etc.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Yan Shen
    How else would you reconcile India's abysmally low performance on national IQ tests or PISA with the clear and obvious fact of elite Indian talent, particularly in America? Various commenters in the HBD blogosphere have attempted to answer the questions you've posed above. That clear answers to these questions may not yet be known hardly negates the hypothesis I've offered. I myself don't claim to be a uh expert on the matter.

    I'm merely positing that sub-Saharan Africa is a lesser version of India, so to speak. Certain ethnic groups such as the Igbo seem to excel relative to other Africans, although they're still clearly not at the same level as say elite Indians. However when stories of relatively intelligent African immigrants disproportionately reveal that such individuals are Igbo from Nigeria or the likes, it's not unreasonable to speculate that a similar albeit lesser phenomenon like in India may be at work in Africa. It seems to me that this would also resolve many of the empirical data points under discussion here.

    As you say regarding India, it is a plausible explanation that there is a great deal of heterogeneity, and in some cases that is amplified by the degree of cousin marriage.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-heterogeneous-states-of-india

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/more-sex-cousin

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/inbreeding-two-tribes

    Read More
    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    Heterogeneity of ethnicities does not necessarily imply the existence of huge IQ gaps per se, does it?

    It alone can not be taken as a sufficient proof that avg IQ of self-claimed "high castes" are so much higher than so-called "low-castes".

    Indian's "high castes" at their "purest" by looks are about likes of the modern Iranians, who have avg IQ of about 86.

    If one day, the US changes her foreign policy and lures the top 1% or 5% of Iran's bell curve go to work in the US via H1B1, wouldn't these Iranians become the newest "high IQ caste"in America? Or we would be deeply puzzled that how to reconcile these brilliant Iranians talents with Iran's avg 86 IQ?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @jorge videla (BGI volunteer)
    i'm way to un-conscientious to summarize for hereditists.

    but don't blame me. i can't help it. because genes.

    if HBD were true then unless the samples are small or unrepresentative there should never be any such finding as the ALL. therefore, HBD is false.

    sad!

    american blacks have higher blood pressure than american whites. african blacks living in the countryside have lower blood pressure than white americans. yet the difference in h^2 for bp and h^2 for IQ in the minnesota study was not significant.

    sad!

    You seem to misunderstand the nature of social research. It is not uncommon for different studies to arrive at different results. Jason Malloy’s meta-analysis found that the other studies contradicted the findings of the ALL survey. Best not to make a sweeping conclusion based on one survey.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @dearieme
    Don't sneer at poker and bridge, Dr T: in undergraduate days I knew some highly intelligent people drawn into spending huge amounts of time on them. Do, please, sneer at Scrabble, one of the dullest games I've ever played.

    By the way what on earth is the "UK Honor Roll"? I've never heard of it.

    Poker is more than shrewdness in calculating mathematic odds, though that is essential. To succeed you also have to be great at reading people and knowing when to bluff and when to call someone else’s bluff. In other words, math isn’t enough. It takes real people skills to be an exceptional poker player. I know this because I played a lot of poker and though I had all the odds memorized, could never get the knack of fooling other players so I was just average at a table of experienced players. In a way, poker is a more complete measure of a person than scrabble or chess or any other game that is played up front. Odysseus, because of his caginess, was a more formidable adversary than Achilles–and the Greeks regarded him as such. Calculated deceit beats raw strength, whether physical or mental.

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  • @PandaAtWar

    We resolve the paradox of low average IQ scores in India partly by realizing that there are probably high IQ castes from which high achieving Indians are drawn from.
     
    Can't believe that you also seem to buy into this Hindu Nationalist BS of high IQ castes in India... LOL

    1. What are of these castes?

    2. Where they came from? (i.e. racially speaking, they're Mongoloid? Caucasoid? Negroid? or new-found Indiaroid? )

    3. How big are their underlying total populations respectively in India?

    4. What are their avg IQ respectively? (e.g. any IQ studies done there, or just again the legendary claim that "the richest and the most successful people in the US, hence avg 120+ IQ" ?)

    5. Why they are high? (e.g. are they "cold-selected" populations? They have unusally larger brain sizes than Mongoloid or Caucasoid? What are their corresponding maturation rates, personality traits, reproductive rates, etc.. all kinds of "JP Rushton measures" that fit in with their claimed IQ range? ...)

    6. How they are high? (e.g. they're high on verbal? or spatial? or both? compared to which standard?)

    ...

    Panda sees that Hindu nationalists are pretty successful on propagating the "high IQ castes" from India BS (compared to whom? to avg 82?), without even trying to present clear answers to any of above basic questions or the underlying rationale. Before that happens , high my paw! lol

    How else would you reconcile India’s abysmally low performance on national IQ tests or PISA with the clear and obvious fact of elite Indian talent, particularly in America? Various commenters in the HBD blogosphere have attempted to answer the questions you’ve posed above. That clear answers to these questions may not yet be known hardly negates the hypothesis I’ve offered. I myself don’t claim to be a uh expert on the matter.

    I’m merely positing that sub-Saharan Africa is a lesser version of India, so to speak. Certain ethnic groups such as the Igbo seem to excel relative to other Africans, although they’re still clearly not at the same level as say elite Indians. However when stories of relatively intelligent African immigrants disproportionately reveal that such individuals are Igbo from Nigeria or the likes, it’s not unreasonable to speculate that a similar albeit lesser phenomenon like in India may be at work in Africa. It seems to me that this would also resolve many of the empirical data points under discussion here.

    Read More
    • Replies: @James Thompson
    As you say regarding India, it is a plausible explanation that there is a great deal of heterogeneity, and in some cases that is amplified by the degree of cousin marriage.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-heterogeneous-states-of-india

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/more-sex-cousin

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/inbreeding-two-tribes
    , @PandaAtWar

    How else would you reconcile India’s abysmally low performance on national IQ tests or PISA with the clear and obvious fact of elite Indian talent, particularly in America
     
    Quite easy to reconcile: top 0.1% or 1% of the right side of the bell curve of 1.3 billion are a huge number, pretty straightforward really.

    Actually if you take the top 0.1% or even 1% (de facto implemented by H1B1-alike visa policy) of any country with a sizable population (e.g. Vietnam, Russia, Nigeria, or even Germany, Poland, let alone India) , regardless her population average IQ, this group of people would be IQ-ready to excel compared to the average of almost any host country, as long as the former country has a reasonable indegenious culture of emphasising on learning & education. That's just simple maths.

    The question now are :

    1. will Vietnam, Russia, Nigeria, Germany and Poland all have "high IQ castes" as well a-la-India-standard?
    2.And what race/s are they?
    3. e.g. How much richer and more eliter, will Russian Americans be, compared to Indian Americans, if the former must also be on H1B1, aka top 1% or so.

    The underlying racial rationale is also straightforward:

    There're 3 major races in the world. Pretty sure that almost 100% of "elite Indian talents in America" don't fall into Negroid or Mongoloid categories.

    Unless a new race is discovered (Indiaroid?) , these people are either Caucasoid or some kind of mixed, which by definition have average IQ somewhere below the European standard 100 for sure (assuming JP Rushton is not completely BSing his data in Race, evolution, and behavior) , except, of course, that these Indians are actually East Asian-European mixed whom they don't look like.

    Simple.

    Therefore, Panda wonders which standard we're talking about, given that "castes" of average IQ somewhere below 100 are defined as "high iq castes" here?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Yan Shen

    Differences between African American and Africans. I like this argument. African Americans should have more high-performing outliers than Africans, per head of population. When corrected for population size the pool of talent to be drawn from is 41 million African Americans and over 1 billion Sub-Saharan Africans (reportedly between 1,014 million and, from the World Population Review, 1023 million). Chisala has somewhat different figures, 46 million for African Americans and 800 million for Sub-Saharan Africa. He has said these are his last words so we cannot resolve these differences in discussion. If I take my figures for sub-Saharan Africa at 1014 million and African Americans at 41 million, and assume that African Americans at IQ 85 and Africans at IQ 70 and have to compete against each other for IQ 130 occupations, then there will be 167,124 African Americans against 55,345 Africans at that level, so I agree with Chisala that the former should predominate. If Africans do better than African Americans on a broad range of intellectual indicators in the US, this is an important anomaly. We can check this against a common standard school leaving examination in the US.
     
    .

    Isn't it likely that sub-Saharan Africa is simply a lesser version of India? Instead of assuming a uniform population with some mean and SD, it seems to me more likely that sub-Saharan Africa is racially diverse, with certain subgroups like the Igbo ahead of others on the continent in terms of aptitude.

    We resolve the paradox of low average IQ scores in India partly by realizing that there are probably high IQ castes from which high achieving Indians are drawn from. Wouldn't this also imply a regression to a higher sub-group mean for the children of these upper caste Indians? Could not a lesser version of this apply to sub-Saharan Africa? I feel like that would go a long way towards explaining many of the data points Chanda points out...

    On the legendary claim that

    “Indian Americans are the richest (have the highest avg income) people in the US, hence these Indian high castes have avg 120+ IQ” :

    Just curious, does the US also keep average income list of, for instance–

    Norwegium Americans

    Belgium Americans

    United Arab Emirates Americans

    Sierra Leone Americans

    Andorran Americans

    to compare apple-to-apple with that of Indian Americans, even assuming that most of these people are also on H1B1 Visa hence highly-selected?

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Yan Shen

    Differences between African American and Africans. I like this argument. African Americans should have more high-performing outliers than Africans, per head of population. When corrected for population size the pool of talent to be drawn from is 41 million African Americans and over 1 billion Sub-Saharan Africans (reportedly between 1,014 million and, from the World Population Review, 1023 million). Chisala has somewhat different figures, 46 million for African Americans and 800 million for Sub-Saharan Africa. He has said these are his last words so we cannot resolve these differences in discussion. If I take my figures for sub-Saharan Africa at 1014 million and African Americans at 41 million, and assume that African Americans at IQ 85 and Africans at IQ 70 and have to compete against each other for IQ 130 occupations, then there will be 167,124 African Americans against 55,345 Africans at that level, so I agree with Chisala that the former should predominate. If Africans do better than African Americans on a broad range of intellectual indicators in the US, this is an important anomaly. We can check this against a common standard school leaving examination in the US.
     
    .

    Isn't it likely that sub-Saharan Africa is simply a lesser version of India? Instead of assuming a uniform population with some mean and SD, it seems to me more likely that sub-Saharan Africa is racially diverse, with certain subgroups like the Igbo ahead of others on the continent in terms of aptitude.

    We resolve the paradox of low average IQ scores in India partly by realizing that there are probably high IQ castes from which high achieving Indians are drawn from. Wouldn't this also imply a regression to a higher sub-group mean for the children of these upper caste Indians? Could not a lesser version of this apply to sub-Saharan Africa? I feel like that would go a long way towards explaining many of the data points Chanda points out...

    We resolve the paradox of low average IQ scores in India partly by realizing that there are probably high IQ castes from which high achieving Indians are drawn from.

    Can’t believe that you also seem to buy into this Hindu Nationalist BS of high IQ castes in India… LOL

    1. What are of these castes?

    2. Where they came from? (i.e. racially speaking, they’re Mongoloid? Caucasoid? Negroid? or new-found Indiaroid? )

    3. How big are their underlying total populations respectively in India?

    4. What are their avg IQ respectively? (e.g. any IQ studies done there, or just again the legendary claim that “the richest and the most successful people in the US, hence avg 120+ IQ” ?)

    5. Why they are high? (e.g. are they “cold-selected” populations? They have unusally larger brain sizes than Mongoloid or Caucasoid? What are their corresponding maturation rates, personality traits, reproductive rates, etc.. all kinds of “JP Rushton measures” that fit in with their claimed IQ range? …)

    6. How they are high? (e.g. they’re high on verbal? or spatial? or both? compared to which standard?)

    Panda sees that Hindu nationalists are pretty successful on propagating the “high IQ castes” from India BS (compared to whom? to avg 82?), without even trying to present clear answers to any of above basic questions or the underlying rationale. Before that happens , high my paw! lol

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    How else would you reconcile India's abysmally low performance on national IQ tests or PISA with the clear and obvious fact of elite Indian talent, particularly in America? Various commenters in the HBD blogosphere have attempted to answer the questions you've posed above. That clear answers to these questions may not yet be known hardly negates the hypothesis I've offered. I myself don't claim to be a uh expert on the matter.

    I'm merely positing that sub-Saharan Africa is a lesser version of India, so to speak. Certain ethnic groups such as the Igbo seem to excel relative to other Africans, although they're still clearly not at the same level as say elite Indians. However when stories of relatively intelligent African immigrants disproportionately reveal that such individuals are Igbo from Nigeria or the likes, it's not unreasonable to speculate that a similar albeit lesser phenomenon like in India may be at work in Africa. It seems to me that this would also resolve many of the empirical data points under discussion here.

    , @AaronB
    Ok, Panda, I've looked at your six questions and you're right, I can't really answer them.

    But I don't think I need to in order to make my claim that India has always produced some of the finest minds the world has known and continues to do so.

    I meant caste only in the sense of class, not in a racial sense.

    I doubt the Indian intellectual caste is racially distinguished - certainly they don't look any different from ordinary Indians.

    Whatever Aryan invasions happened long ago, the race mixing is probably total.

    In fact, I actually think ordinary Indians are intelligent and the state of the country is explained by India being the Land Of The Gods - i.e like all religious people, they don't see this world as worth taking very seriously at all, much less furiously building up.

    I've been to India like eight times, and I've never thought the average person there is stupid. They just want different things than we do.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • thank God UCL charges so little to its psychology students.

    UCL’s psychology students can work in the city (NOT!) and reconcile crazy people to the crazy society they live in, blighty (NOT!).

    in an ideal world james thompson would be guillotined.

    then his headless body would be raped and eaten by jigaboos.

    this comment has been saved and will be posted again…and again…and again…and again…

    He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Jeremy Corbyn.

    Read More
    • Replies: @FKA Max

    then his headless body would be raped and eaten by jigaboos.

     

    This was getting out of hand... I am glad the moderators intervened. Thank
    you: http://www.unz.com/jthompson/chisalas-last-word/#comment-2109327

    I had some comment exchanges with this commenter, to try to better
    understand where he is coming from, etc. But I don't feel he debates (or
    jokes) in good faith (or in good humor):
    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/alma-mater-2018/#comment-2104452

    I found an interesting article/study concerning this:

    Black humour is sign of high intelligence, study suggests

    An appreciation of ‘sick jokes’ equates with high IQ and low aggression


    The findings contradict earlier theories about the relationship
    between aggression and humour. As early as 1905, Freud hypothesised that
    humour allows for a safe release of usually repressed sexual and aggressive
    urges.

    “This fits with past research showing that sense of humour correlates with
    IQ, but refutes the somewhat commonly-held belief that people who like
    black humour tend to be grumpy and perhaps a little prone to sadism
    ,”
    the digest said.

    Willinger and her team said their findings suggested that appreciating
    black humour was a “complex information-processing task” in which negative
    moods and high aggression levels could cloud people’s ability to get the
    joke.

     
    - https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jan/29/dark-humour-high-intelligence-study

    High aggression levels as displayed by commenter jorge videla (BGI
    volunteer)
    likely also cloud a person's perception as to how funny their
    own jokes/humor actually are/is. Not very funny, just kind of creepy and
    obsessive, in his case.

    Something like a Dunning-Kruger Effect for (black) humor. jorge
    videla (BGI volunteer)
    is the white Le’Genius Wisdom Williams of
    black humour:
    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/the-talk-nonblack-version/#comment-2092312

    http://www.skepticblog.org/wp-content/uploads/Dunning-Kruger.png

    Source: http://www.skepticblog.org/2013/06/26/the-dunning-kruger-effect/

    If commenter jorge videla (BGI volunteer) needs to get this bad taste
    black humour out of his system, maybe instead of commenting here at the
    Unz Review and creepily stalking Mr. Thompson, this communication
    technique comedian Trevor Moore developed could be a better option and of
    interest and help to him:

    Trevor Moore: High in Church - "Drunk Texts to Myself"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5wfioUjJk
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @RaceRealist88
    "how many traits are known to be plastic but are as heritable as IQ? it depends on the study. it always does. but for some study populations the h^2 statistic for blood pressure, adiposity, insulin sensitivity, cholesterol, etc. is in the same range as that of IQ."

    This. So if IQ is like those traits then surely it should be able to move up and down like they do too, if it truly is a physiological trait, that is (it isn't).

    That is an interesting comparison to explore, but it feels like you are engaging in a bit of “no true physiological trait” here. Perhaps you could list what you consider physiological traits (or not) and why? Do you consider height a physiological trait?

    It seems to me a good model for these traits is to consider them as having three components:
    - Genetic. Which establishes a baseline and largely defines response to the next two.
    - Developmental. Environmental influences happening throughout one’s lifetime. The time aspect is critical. Nutrition during development can impact height greatly. Nutrition during adulthood not so much (modulo osteoporosis late in life).
    - Short term variation. Environmental influences happening on short and current timescales. Say as examples alcohol or nitrogen narcosis impacts on intelligence. It is interesting to ponder how reversible short term changes are (e.g. brain damage from oxygen deprivation).

    Heritability says a great deal about the importance of genetics relative to traits of people in roughly similar environments, but it does not say that much about what can be accomplished with targeted environmental intervention either during development or in the moment. Developmental research is hard and requires long durations to fully assess, but there are some natural experiments which can cast light (e.g. breastfeeding and IQ). However, short term experiments are fairly easy. Gwern does a lot of that sort of thing with N=1. It would be interesting to see larger population research along those lines.

    Where things become extremely interesting is when the optimal targeted interventions are different for different people (back to genetics ; ).

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • LONDON’S GLOBAL UNIVERSITY!

    SAD!

    UK/EU students Overseas students
    UCL tuition fees (2018/19 entry) £5,060– £15,940 £19,580 – £29,260
    Living costs* £13,520 – £20,280 £13,520 – £20,280

    SAD!

    this is why the grandson of a public toilet janitor lives in the countryside!

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  • and way toO too.

    truly pathetic!

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  • @jorge videla (BGI volunteer)
    i'm way to un-conscientious to summarize for hereditists.

    but don't blame me. i can't help it. because genes.

    if HBD were true then unless the samples are small or unrepresentative there should never be any such finding as the ALL. therefore, HBD is false.

    sad!

    american blacks have higher blood pressure than american whites. african blacks living in the countryside have lower blood pressure than white americans. yet the difference in h^2 for bp and h^2 for IQ in the minnesota study was not significant.

    sad!

    but don’t blame me. i can’t help it. because genes.

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  • @phil
    Instead of just linking to the article on Bermuda and insulting hereditarians, you could have highlighted what the article on Bermuda (by Jason Malloy) actually concluded. It said that, while the survey of Adult Literacy and Life Skills (ALL) in Bermuda suggested that there was no significant difference in average IQ between whites (W) and blacks (B),

    "five out of six samples showed the IQ scores that one would more reasonably expect for an island that is two-thirds black and one-third white. Given this and the large B-W social disparities in Bermuda, I’m inclined to accept these results over the ALL..." An average IQ for Bermudan whites of 100 and an average IQ for Bermudan blacks of 88 seem more plausible.

    i’m way to un-conscientious to summarize for hereditists.

    but don’t blame me. i can’t help it. because genes.

    if HBD were true then unless the samples are small or unrepresentative there should never be any such finding as the ALL. therefore, HBD is false.

    sad!

    american blacks have higher blood pressure than american whites. african blacks living in the countryside have lower blood pressure than white americans. yet the difference in h^2 for bp and h^2 for IQ in the minnesota study was not significant.

    sad!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    but don’t blame me. i can’t help it. because genes.
    , @phil
    You seem to misunderstand the nature of social research. It is not uncommon for different studies to arrive at different results. Jason Malloy's meta-analysis found that the other studies contradicted the findings of the ALL survey. Best not to make a sweeping conclusion based on one survey.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @jorge videla (BGI volunteer)
    or the bermuda data. http://humanvarieties.org/2013/05/03/hvgiq-bermuda/

    They normally reject the large significance of things like training/teaching resources, given twin studies in America.

    that's because hereditists are sillier than Raymond Luxury Yacht (pronounced Throat Warbler Mangrove).

    how many traits are known to be plastic but are as heritable as IQ? it depends on the study. it always does. but for some study populations the h^2 statistic for blood pressure, adiposity, insulin sensitivity, cholesterol, etc. is in the same range as that of IQ.

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tyQvjKqXA0Y/hqdefault.jpg

    “how many traits are known to be plastic but are as heritable as IQ? it depends on the study. it always does. but for some study populations the h^2 statistic for blood pressure, adiposity, insulin sensitivity, cholesterol, etc. is in the same range as that of IQ.”

    This. So if IQ is like those traits then surely it should be able to move up and down like they do too, if it truly is a physiological trait, that is (it isn’t).

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    That is an interesting comparison to explore, but it feels like you are engaging in a bit of "no true physiological trait" here. Perhaps you could list what you consider physiological traits (or not) and why? Do you consider height a physiological trait?

    It seems to me a good model for these traits is to consider them as having three components:
    - Genetic. Which establishes a baseline and largely defines response to the next two.
    - Developmental. Environmental influences happening throughout one's lifetime. The time aspect is critical. Nutrition during development can impact height greatly. Nutrition during adulthood not so much (modulo osteoporosis late in life).
    - Short term variation. Environmental influences happening on short and current timescales. Say as examples alcohol or nitrogen narcosis impacts on intelligence. It is interesting to ponder how reversible short term changes are (e.g. brain damage from oxygen deprivation).

    Heritability says a great deal about the importance of genetics relative to traits of people in roughly similar environments, but it does not say that much about what can be accomplished with targeted environmental intervention either during development or in the moment. Developmental research is hard and requires long durations to fully assess, but there are some natural experiments which can cast light (e.g. breastfeeding and IQ). However, short term experiments are fairly easy. Gwern does a lot of that sort of thing with N=1. It would be interesting to see larger population research along those lines.

    Where things become extremely interesting is when the optimal targeted interventions are different for different people (back to genetics ; ).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @James Thompson
    We should certainly do more intelligence testing in Sub-Saharan African, and make better note of the ethnic background of participants, but at the moment there does not seem to be as much variation as in India. It would be good to be wrong about that!

    Yeah, my personal suspicion is that sub-Saharan Africa is a lesser version of India and that potentially elite subgroups such as the Igbo, while obviously not on the same level as high IQ upper castes in India, probably excel relative to other groups on the African continent. Of course I’m only speculating as a relatively ignorant layman here, but I uh suspect that thinking along these lines would probably help to explain some of the data points Chanda cites. I would be surprised if treating the entire continent as a monolithic entity with average IQ of 70 is the correct way of understanding the situation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth

    the Igbo, while obviously not on the same level as high IQ upper castes in India,

     

    Well let's let Chandra address that himself.

    http://newsrescue.com/blacks-especially-igbos-prove-more-intelligent-than-whites-including-the-asian-leaders/#axzz50bgTysQW
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Emil O. W. Kirkegaard
    A quantitative analysis. http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/?p=7022

    Thank you so much for this.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Yan Shen

    Differences between African American and Africans. I like this argument. African Americans should have more high-performing outliers than Africans, per head of population. When corrected for population size the pool of talent to be drawn from is 41 million African Americans and over 1 billion Sub-Saharan Africans (reportedly between 1,014 million and, from the World Population Review, 1023 million). Chisala has somewhat different figures, 46 million for African Americans and 800 million for Sub-Saharan Africa. He has said these are his last words so we cannot resolve these differences in discussion. If I take my figures for sub-Saharan Africa at 1014 million and African Americans at 41 million, and assume that African Americans at IQ 85 and Africans at IQ 70 and have to compete against each other for IQ 130 occupations, then there will be 167,124 African Americans against 55,345 Africans at that level, so I agree with Chisala that the former should predominate. If Africans do better than African Americans on a broad range of intellectual indicators in the US, this is an important anomaly. We can check this against a common standard school leaving examination in the US.
     
    .

    Isn't it likely that sub-Saharan Africa is simply a lesser version of India? Instead of assuming a uniform population with some mean and SD, it seems to me more likely that sub-Saharan Africa is racially diverse, with certain subgroups like the Igbo ahead of others on the continent in terms of aptitude.

    We resolve the paradox of low average IQ scores in India partly by realizing that there are probably high IQ castes from which high achieving Indians are drawn from. Wouldn't this also imply a regression to a higher sub-group mean for the children of these upper caste Indians? Could not a lesser version of this apply to sub-Saharan Africa? I feel like that would go a long way towards explaining many of the data points Chanda points out...

    We should certainly do more intelligence testing in Sub-Saharan African, and make better note of the ethnic background of participants, but at the moment there does not seem to be as much variation as in India. It would be good to be wrong about that!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Yeah, my personal suspicion is that sub-Saharan Africa is a lesser version of India and that potentially elite subgroups such as the Igbo, while obviously not on the same level as high IQ upper castes in India, probably excel relative to other groups on the African continent. Of course I'm only speculating as a relatively ignorant layman here, but I uh suspect that thinking along these lines would probably help to explain some of the data points Chanda cites. I would be surprised if treating the entire continent as a monolithic entity with average IQ of 70 is the correct way of understanding the situation.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • A quantitative analysis. http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/?p=7022

    Read More
    • Replies: @James Thompson
    Thank you so much for this.
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  • Instead of just linking to the article on Bermuda and insulting hereditarians, you could have highlighted what the article on Bermuda (by Jason Malloy) actually concluded. It said that, while the survey of Adult Literacy and Life Skills (ALL) in Bermuda suggested that there was no significant difference in average IQ between whites (W) and blacks (B),

    “five out of six samples showed the IQ scores that one would more reasonably expect for an island that is two-thirds black and one-third white. Given this and the large B-W social disparities in Bermuda, I’m inclined to accept these results over the ALL…” An average IQ for Bermudan whites of 100 and an average IQ for Bermudan blacks of 88 seem more plausible.

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    • Replies: @jorge videla (BGI volunteer)
    i'm way to un-conscientious to summarize for hereditists.

    but don't blame me. i can't help it. because genes.

    if HBD were true then unless the samples are small or unrepresentative there should never be any such finding as the ALL. therefore, HBD is false.

    sad!

    american blacks have higher blood pressure than american whites. african blacks living in the countryside have lower blood pressure than white americans. yet the difference in h^2 for bp and h^2 for IQ in the minnesota study was not significant.

    sad!

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  • or the bermuda data. http://humanvarieties.org/2013/05/03/hvgiq-bermuda/

    They normally reject the large significance of things like training/teaching resources, given twin studies in America.

    that’s because hereditists are sillier than Raymond Luxury Yacht (pronounced Throat Warbler Mangrove).

    how many traits are known to be plastic but are as heritable as IQ? it depends on the study. it always does. but for some study populations the h^2 statistic for blood pressure, adiposity, insulin sensitivity, cholesterol, etc. is in the same range as that of IQ.

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    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    "how many traits are known to be plastic but are as heritable as IQ? it depends on the study. it always does. but for some study populations the h^2 statistic for blood pressure, adiposity, insulin sensitivity, cholesterol, etc. is in the same range as that of IQ."

    This. So if IQ is like those traits then surely it should be able to move up and down like they do too, if it truly is a physiological trait, that is (it isn't).
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  • Differences between African American and Africans. I like this argument. African Americans should have more high-performing outliers than Africans, per head of population. When corrected for population size the pool of talent to be drawn from is 41 million African Americans and over 1 billion Sub-Saharan Africans (reportedly between 1,014 million and, from the World Population Review, 1023 million). Chisala has somewhat different figures, 46 million for African Americans and 800 million for Sub-Saharan Africa. He has said these are his last words so we cannot resolve these differences in discussion. If I take my figures for sub-Saharan Africa at 1014 million and African Americans at 41 million, and assume that African Americans at IQ 85 and Africans at IQ 70 and have to compete against each other for IQ 130 occupations, then there will be 167,124 African Americans against 55,345 Africans at that level, so I agree with Chisala that the former should predominate. If Africans do better than African Americans on a broad range of intellectual indicators in the US, this is an important anomaly. We can check this against a common standard school leaving examination in the US.

    .

    Isn’t it likely that sub-Saharan Africa is simply a lesser version of India? Instead of assuming a uniform population with some mean and SD, it seems to me more likely that sub-Saharan Africa is racially diverse, with certain subgroups like the Igbo ahead of others on the continent in terms of aptitude.

    We resolve the paradox of low average IQ scores in India partly by realizing that there are probably high IQ castes from which high achieving Indians are drawn from. Wouldn’t this also imply a regression to a higher sub-group mean for the children of these upper caste Indians? Could not a lesser version of this apply to sub-Saharan Africa? I feel like that would go a long way towards explaining many of the data points Chanda points out…

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    • Replies: @James Thompson
    We should certainly do more intelligence testing in Sub-Saharan African, and make better note of the ethnic background of participants, but at the moment there does not seem to be as much variation as in India. It would be good to be wrong about that!
    , @PandaAtWar

    We resolve the paradox of low average IQ scores in India partly by realizing that there are probably high IQ castes from which high achieving Indians are drawn from.
     
    Can't believe that you also seem to buy into this Hindu Nationalist BS of high IQ castes in India... LOL

    1. What are of these castes?

    2. Where they came from? (i.e. racially speaking, they're Mongoloid? Caucasoid? Negroid? or new-found Indiaroid? )

    3. How big are their underlying total populations respectively in India?

    4. What are their avg IQ respectively? (e.g. any IQ studies done there, or just again the legendary claim that "the richest and the most successful people in the US, hence avg 120+ IQ" ?)

    5. Why they are high? (e.g. are they "cold-selected" populations? They have unusally larger brain sizes than Mongoloid or Caucasoid? What are their corresponding maturation rates, personality traits, reproductive rates, etc.. all kinds of "JP Rushton measures" that fit in with their claimed IQ range? ...)

    6. How they are high? (e.g. they're high on verbal? or spatial? or both? compared to which standard?)

    ...

    Panda sees that Hindu nationalists are pretty successful on propagating the "high IQ castes" from India BS (compared to whom? to avg 82?), without even trying to present clear answers to any of above basic questions or the underlying rationale. Before that happens , high my paw! lol

    , @PandaAtWar
    On the legendary claim that

    “Indian Americans are the richest (have the highest avg income) people in the US, hence these Indian high castes have avg 120+ IQ” :

    Just curious, does the US also keep average income list of, for instance--

    Norwegium Americans

    Belgium Americans

    United Arab Emirates Americans

    Sierra Leone Americans

    Andorran Americans

    ...

    to compare apple-to-apple with that of Indian Americans, even assuming that most of these people are also on H1B1 Visa hence highly-selected?

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  • Don’t sneer at poker and bridge, Dr T: in undergraduate days I knew some highly intelligent people drawn into spending huge amounts of time on them. Do, please, sneer at Scrabble, one of the dullest games I’ve ever played.

    By the way what on earth is the “UK Honor Roll”? I’ve never heard of it.

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    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    Poker is more than shrewdness in calculating mathematic odds, though that is essential. To succeed you also have to be great at reading people and knowing when to bluff and when to call someone else's bluff. In other words, math isn't enough. It takes real people skills to be an exceptional poker player. I know this because I played a lot of poker and though I had all the odds memorized, could never get the knack of fooling other players so I was just average at a table of experienced players. In a way, poker is a more complete measure of a person than scrabble or chess or any other game that is played up front. Odysseus, because of his caginess, was a more formidable adversary than Achilles--and the Greeks regarded him as such. Calculated deceit beats raw strength, whether physical or mental.
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  • @Anonymous
    Where do you get 5,534,500?

    My foolish error. Thanks for pointing it out.

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  • Where do you get 5,534,500?

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    • Replies: @James Thompson
    My foolish error. Thanks for pointing it out.
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  • @Hbd investor
    This might be relevant, a week ago The Economist debunked Chisala's scrabble claims

    https://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21731867-best-players-earn-government-salaries-why-nigeria-produces-scrabble-champions

    Why Nigeria produces Scrabble champions

    Thanks for the link. It explains the motivation at a national level, but the “short words” strategy should be open to everyone, should it not? I don’t know enough about Scrabble to judge whether this approach, though very low level intellectually, is sufficient to win in international competitions.

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  • This might be relevant, a week ago The Economist debunked Chisala’s scrabble claims

    https://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21731867-best-players-earn-government-salaries-why-nigeria-produces-scrabble-champions

    Why Nigeria produces Scrabble champions

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    • Replies: @James Thompson
    Thanks for the link. It explains the motivation at a national level, but the "short words" strategy should be open to everyone, should it not? I don't know enough about Scrabble to judge whether this approach, though very low level intellectually, is sufficient to win in international competitions.
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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    To summarize the general debate: under what circumstances do real world achievements call into question group tests of intellect? One answer is: when more of the group in question have real-life achievements above what would be expected from their measured average intelligence. In my view there should be no doubt that real world achievements are a better measure of intelligence than predictive assessments.

    Not if that predictive assessment is a well designed IQ test (IMO). An IQ test is a real world achievement. It happens in the real world and it measures genuine achievement. Furthermore: it’s specifically designed to measure “raw” intelligence and minimise externalities such as motivation or opportunity, which is exactly how it should be done. The idea should always be to measure raw ability as a starting point and, more importantly, as a semi-hard limit on intellectual achievement. If you put a (self-driving) car on a machine to measure its acceleration, grip, torque, speed you’ll get a very valuable measure of its capabilities and limitations. Later on that car might end up in Alaska, Autobahn or in a dusty garage but that won’t change its core ability.

    Second: a 130 IQ Sub-Saharan African is a lonely person in terms of having contact with people of that ability. He’s probably more likely to end up running a very efficient smuggling/poaching gang than winning a chess championship. The society around him will be an average 70 IQ society and he will adapt to that environment. Meanwhile, an European of the same 130 IQ ability will be surrounded by people who are as smart as him and the societal structure will reflect that.

    Ultimately, it’s the density that counts. The table below shows (at 15 SD) that a 100 IQ country will have a 130 IQ (and above) persons everywhere (1:44) while in a 70 IQ country they’ll be very rare (1:31560).

    http://archive.is/ZV0m8

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  • Chanda Chisala has been producing pile after pile of nonsense for quite some time. At first, I was content with simply leaving comments at his posts refuting his rubbish because it was rather easy to point out where he was full of baloney. Since then, I've been banned by him, mostly for my signature flair....
  • […] verwendete Quellen: voxday, unz, stern, inverse, R. Byrne, The thinking ape (Oxford […]

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  • There has been much talk here about Chanda Chisala's article "The IQ gap is no longer a black and white issue." Much of the article focuses on the Igbo (known also as Ibo), a people who live in the Niger Delta and "are well known to be high academic achievers within Nigeria." In the United...
  • @Ginger Bread Man
    It seems like some Igbos want to leave Nigeria and form their own country. Also, they view their conationals with disdain: http://www.vanguardngr.com/2015/12/biafra-surprises-from-the-north/

    “It seems like some Igbos want to leave Nigeria and form their own country…”

    Ya think? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_Civil_War

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  • Chanda Chisala has written another piece on IQ and African immigrants to the UK: The correct term is not "regression to the mean." It's "non-inheritance of acquired characteristics." In other words, each person has a single genotype and a range of possible phenotypes. A culture can push its members to either limit of this range,...
  • […] all people or sub-groups within a “race” are identical. As Peter Frost wrote, “No, blacks aren’t all alike. Who said they are?” There are smart black people and dumb black people. Hard-working whites and lazy whites. […]

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  • Chanda Chisala has been producing pile after pile of nonsense for quite some time. At first, I was content with simply leaving comments at his posts refuting his rubbish because it was rather easy to point out where he was full of baloney. Since then, I've been banned by him, mostly for my signature flair....
  • @Ajani
    Slander, ad hominem and projection are some of the oldest, most natural and most common means of fighting against revelations that threaten one's cherished and long-held beliefs. This has been well demonstrated in this article. One of the most interesting observations about this article is that while the author scourges a scholar (whose work is always characterized by an almost obsessive commitment to rigour and detail) as being 'shallow' and 'sketchy' in his coverage of a topic, he does so in a way that is transparently handwavy, superficial and propagandistic, merely throwing around scientific names and phrases that supposedly embody concepts and topics he claims the scholar doesn't know or understand without bothering to outline or even describe how the scholar supposedly misused or omitted those topics and what relevance they have to his argument.

    This modern phenomenon we call 'racism' is very much a religion...a psychological and emotional religion that has its adherents by the millions in the western world though predominantly in America. Like most religions, it owes its existence largely if not entirely to emotional need and wishful thinking; in this case, the need to believe that one belongs to a special and inherently superior social group relative to another social group. The very self-conception and self-esteem of its adherence depends this belief being 'true'. Thus, when they are confronted with facts and logic that expose their cherished ideas as 'a pile of baloney', like adherents of most religions, they react with utmost indignation and venom, lashing back in the only way they can; by flinging strawmen, non-sequiturs, projections, ad-hominem, red red-herrings and so on at the offender. It also helps to characterize the offender (with adjectives) as the opposite of what he clearly is. Another effective tactic against the irritating bearers of truth and reason: denial and reversal.

    This article is a fine specimen of this sad property of human nature.

    Slander, ad hominem and projection are some of the oldest, most natural and most common means of fighting against revelations that threaten one’s cherished and long-held beliefs. This has been well demonstrated in this article. One of the most interesting observations about this article is that while the author scourges a scholar (whose work is always characterized by an almost obsessive commitment to rigour and detail) as being ‘shallow’ and ‘sketchy’ in his coverage of a topic, he does so in a way that is transparently handwavy, superficial and propagandistic, merely throwing around scientific names and phrases that supposedly embody concepts and topics he claims the scholar doesn’t know or understand without bothering to outline or even describe how the scholar supposedly misused or omitted those topics and what relevance they have to his argument.

    You better detail exactly where and how I’m error. A response that fails to do so may result in instant banning.

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  • I just saw your ‘article’ titled “Clannishness”. It truly is remarkable that you can be flinging such labels like “nonsense” and “garbage” towards Chisala’s (far superior, well researched and intellectually honest) articles when you create ‘articles’ filled with such laughable, simple-minded, rehashed and repackaged pseudo-scientific racist garbage. Recycling the dishonest works of racial propagandists and distributing material that amounts to nothing other than 21st century phrenological pseudoscience seems to be a hobby of yours. It is no wonder you were so upset and angered by Chisala’s brilliant articles. I can now understand where the venom evident in the tone of this article towards him comes from. Like i said above, racism is a highly emotionally predicated religion that nourishes and pleasures the self-conception and self-esteem of its adherents. But it is also dependent on simple-minded and irrational thinking (like most religions).

    A few remarks on some of the repackaged nonsense you presented on this very article in which you pretend to be challenging Chisala’s theory on resistance to epigenetic effects. There are a few things one needs to explain to you: First of all, showing that some populations do not appear to be affected (much) by environmental insults does not in any mean that other populations are not. That is the crucial point. Interestingly, people like you have a habit of routinely ignoring the fact that many other populations around the world that are subsets of the ‘caucasian’ and ‘mongoloid’ genetic groups score relatively low on IQ tests just as ‘black’ populations do. The fact that certain subsets like the Chinese in particular seem to maintain a consistent performance on such tests for whatever reason does not erase the fact that environmental effects are real.

    Furthermore, people like you routinely throw around this trope about average brain sizes varying across ‘races’ as though that itself were enough to explain the massive difference that you race religionists like to claim exists blacks and whites. What you don’t seem to know (or tend to ignore) is that these differences in average brain size actually account for no more than a tiny fraction (less than 5%) of IQ difference. You also told a blatant lie when you said that the brain size differences among races is greater than the differences within races. The truth is the exact opposite. There is far greater variation in sizes within races than among races, and a considerable overlap between races.

    As for these so-called differences in brain structures you presented, this is clearly another one of these fringe pseudo-scientific garbage that the race-religionists love to conjure out of thin air. Incidentally, do you know that brain structure differences were discovered during the 70s from similar investigations carried out in the Caribbeans and it turned out that black Carribeans had superior cognitive brain structures than mixed or caucasian ones (the opposite of what they expected to find)? Of course, that research and its results were swept under the rug of history and never shown to the wider community. But the real point is that this kind of ‘research’ people like you love to pander are classic examples of circular reasoning and question begging. You start with a claim that certain social groups are intellectually inferior to others. Then you go to great lengths to ‘identify’ certain brain structures that appear to be common in some groups and not in others. Then you assert that you have ‘proven’ that differences in brain structures are consistent with the notion of intellectual differences. You never seem to realize the fallacy of this kind of nonsense. (Ironically and remarkably, people like you nowadays also have a bizarre tendency to glorify the archaic neanderthals as being intelligent – even MORE intelligent – than homo sapiens based on nothing other than just the fact that it was discovered that you, and not black peole, have a tiny amount of their genes. This is how laughably pretentious, shallow and hypocritical the discourse of these race-religionists is. And its all based on nothing more than the need for self-esteem.)

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  • Slander, ad hominem and projection are some of the oldest, most natural and most common means of fighting against revelations that threaten one’s cherished and long-held beliefs. This has been well demonstrated in this article. One of the most interesting observations about this article is that while the author scourges a scholar (whose work is always characterized by an almost obsessive commitment to rigour and detail) as being ‘shallow’ and ‘sketchy’ in his coverage of a topic, he does so in a way that is transparently handwavy, superficial and propagandistic, merely throwing around scientific names and phrases that supposedly embody concepts and topics he claims the scholar doesn’t know or understand without bothering to outline or even describe how the scholar supposedly misused or omitted those topics and what relevance they have to his argument.

    This modern phenomenon we call ‘racism’ is very much a religion…a psychological and emotional religion that has its adherents by the millions in the western world though predominantly in America. Like most religions, it owes its existence largely if not entirely to emotional need and wishful thinking; in this case, the need to believe that one belongs to a special and inherently superior social group relative to another social group. The very self-conception and self-esteem of its adherence depends this belief being ‘true’. Thus, when they are confronted with facts and logic that expose their cherished ideas as ‘a pile of baloney’, like adherents of most religions, they react with utmost indignation and venom, lashing back in the only way they can; by flinging strawmen, non-sequiturs, projections, ad-hominem, red red-herrings and so on at the offender. It also helps to characterize the offender (with adjectives) as the opposite of what he clearly is. Another effective tactic against the irritating bearers of truth and reason: denial and reversal.

    This article is a fine specimen of this sad property of human nature.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Slander, ad hominem and projection are some of the oldest, most natural and most common means of fighting against revelations that threaten one’s cherished and long-held beliefs. This has been well demonstrated in this article. One of the most interesting observations about this article is that while the author scourges a scholar (whose work is always characterized by an almost obsessive commitment to rigour and detail) as being ‘shallow’ and ‘sketchy’ in his coverage of a topic, he does so in a way that is transparently handwavy, superficial and propagandistic, merely throwing around scientific names and phrases that supposedly embody concepts and topics he claims the scholar doesn’t know or understand without bothering to outline or even describe how the scholar supposedly misused or omitted those topics and what relevance they have to his argument.
     
    You better detail exactly where and how I'm error. A response that fails to do so may result in instant banning.
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  • JayMan,

    it’s “susceptible”, not “susceptable”.

    This lowers your estimated verbal IQ from 154.64 to 154.18

    Bad news for you :)

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  • @Okechukwu
    Jayman,

    So based on your brain size theory we are to assume that if we have a group of Africans with large brains and a group of Europeans with small brains, the Africans will be innately more intelligent than the Europeans.

    Okay, got it.

    HBD. LOL.

    Maybe not you.

    You understand the concept of a correlation, right?

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  • Jayman,

    So based on your brain size theory we are to assume that if we have a group of Africans with large brains and a group of Europeans with small brains, the Africans will be innately more intelligent than the Europeans.

    Okay, got it.

    HBD. LOL.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    Maybe not you.

    You understand the concept of a correlation, right?

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  • Chanda Chisala has written another piece on IQ and African immigrants to the UK: The correct term is not "regression to the mean." It's "non-inheritance of acquired characteristics." In other words, each person has a single genotype and a range of possible phenotypes. A culture can push its members to either limit of this range,...
  • @Simon in London
    I spent years wondering why my Nigerian (and similar - eg Ghanaian) postgraduate students did better than students of any other nationality except the Germans. This seemed a major contradiction to Lynn's IQ data. Finding out about the Igbo has been very enlightening. I do sometimes see some very intelligent students from non-Igo African populations also - I suspect the Igbo are not the only high-IQ black African group.

    The Igbo and the Yoruba in Nigeria generally tend to outperform most Black African and most Black groups generally speaking. Ironically, Diasporan Yorubas outperform the Igbos academically. Though the two groups outperform whites in the UK.

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  • @Priss Factor
    Smarter or dumber, blacks are more muscular and more aggressive than white men.

    They will emasculate white men in the white world.

    THAT is the main reason why the West should oppose the arrival of more blacks.

    Suppose every African migrant to Europe had an IQ of 150. Would that be any better?

    No, the Negroes will gain not only physical but intellectual/economic power over whites.

    Did you watch any Glory or MMA lately?

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Regression to the mean is something else….or is it.

    It happens because ofgenetic change. For instance, a man with above-average IQ will likely marry a woman with above-average IQ. But only part of their above-averageness is genetic.

    But what if their above average IQ is only ‘just above’ because of unfavorable circumstances, in other circumstances it would have been even higher. So their children’s IQ will be even higher if they themselves grow up in better circumstances. So their children will in turn marry someone with an even higher IQ and the descendants of the original couple will belong to the cognitive elite.

    So much for regression to the mean, which can only occur if there is no natural selection taking place, which is what assortative mating actually is.

    Remember Darwin people?

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  • To correct an error I missed:
    17% believe they are perceived as ambiguous(not 28% as I mistakenly wrote before. The rest of the previous edit is correct.: 37% think they are seen as mixed, 5.7% don’t know, 38% as a single group).
    So there is a low-moderate tendency(38% as above) for back/white biracials to believe they are perceived as a single group according to the study.
    Two thirds of this 38%(ca. 25%) felt the single group they were perceived to be was “black” and the remaining third (ca. 12.6%) thought they were perceived as “another group”, or more rarely as “white”. And those who believe they are perceived as black do not necessarily identify as such.

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  • Chanda Chisala has been producing pile after pile of nonsense for quite some time. At first, I was content with simply leaving comments at his posts refuting his rubbish because it was rather easy to point out where he was full of baloney. Since then, I've been banned by him, mostly for my signature flair....
  • […] like me have to write anonymous blogs and columns on the internet when talking about the obvious reality of human biological differences (especially biological group differences)? Why do researchers face […]

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  • @The most deplorable one
    These days I see much genetic influence on behavior and much less to do with tradition.

    The middle ages seems too recent for R = H^2 * S.

    The middle ages seems too recent for R = H^2 * S.

    Two words: Ashkenazi Jews.

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  • The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @hbd chick

    Re: The Hajnal line (which you did not mention) however, there seems to be similar mating behaviors among some Indians … would that be due to the common Indo European ancestry?
     
    the traditional marriage pattern that john hajnal discovered -- i.e. that (north)western europeans have for a very long time (since the medieval period) tended to marry late, a good percentage not at all, and to live in nuclear families -- has, to date, not been found anywhere else in the world (although many societies have begun to adopt these practices in modern times). there's a reason it's known as the western european marriage pattern. pretty sure there aren't any similar behaviors among any indian groups.

    even if there were, though, they wouldn't be due to any common indo-european ancestry, since the set of practices in northwest europe developed during the middle ages and was connected to bipartite manorialism. in other words, these are not some ancient traditions that go back thousands of years. for more on this, see michael mitterauer's Why Europe?. (^_^)

    These days I see much genetic influence on behavior and much less to do with tradition.

    The middle ages seems too recent for R = H^2 * S.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    The middle ages seems too recent for R = H^2 * S.
     
    Two words: Ashkenazi Jews.
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  • @JayMan
    That's enough you two. Further comments on the back and forth between the two of you will be deleted.

    Show ‘em who’s boss, Chanda!

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  • @Advinesta
    In that entire rambling, narcissistic rant, you didn't bother cite to a single thing, especially what the jealous laowai beast Loveless censored. And yes, you can make a great many things up about academic performace, especially when it's about one of the most corrupt countries on the planet.

    Andreas Schleicer also claims that because the PISA 2012 Technical Background Annex claims theres "no cheating, whatsoever, involved". That's an incredible claim for any test, or that general cheating/cramming/rote memorization can't carry over to a great many tests, and Azerbaijan, a country that's generally done very poorly, also got caught cheating in 2009 on the PISA- but just 3 years later, in a country that's synonymous with corruption, that never happened.

    Yes, no chinese takes PISA seriously, but they still manage to do incredibly, and if they did, they'd be on an entirely different dimension compared to the other subhumans. You do atleast admit the "competitions for grades in chinese school are from another universe", which is a bad thing and would make things like cheating to a sizable degree a sensible option, but you keep telling me this doesn't really matter.

    You also saw "many" comments on chinese blogs about people complaining that the questions were too easy- great evidence. You might think, among other things, these weren't representative, but again, there's that laowai underestimation of chinese supergenius. And man, given that student spent in China is 1/20 that of the highest ranking OECD countries, maybe that average IQ of 130 on the part of China would really shine. How can us retarded, subhuman laoiwai even continue to argue?

    I guess it wasn't apparent enough that when I talk about cheating, I am mainly talkg about mainland chinese. Given that Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan are just about every basic way much better places than mainland china- cleaner, safer, vastly less corrupt etc. etc.- I wouldn't be surprised if cheating was far less of an issue in those places, nevermind how Hong Kong and Singapore are both city-states, the latter of which has very high immigration standards, promotes highly educated couples to have more children etc. Also, they make up a tiny fraction of the global chinese population.

    I also like the dig at the "relatively low IQ Korea and Japan"- they're the same race as you, but like a good east asian racist, you can't help but make a dig at those pathetic japs and gooks.

    And yes, cheating is a pretty big issue in South Korea too. I don't know about Japan, but probably much less.
    Yeah, yeah it does mind. You're actually, honest to god claiming that China is undoubtedly corrupt in every single conceivable fashion, EXCEPT for education, that breathtaking corruption and anomie and disregard of others in basically every facet of life is undeniable in modern China, but when it comes to
    And I won't deny China would be vastly better off if not for those things- in fact, they could potentially be the leading superpower. But the roots of China's dysfunction are deep, and go back up to a few centuries (and in ways even further), and while much of it could be layed at what it's suffered in the last century, China has a long way to go before it ever frees itself of it's pathologies.

    You admit just a "tiny percentage" of chinese students cheat, (and I never claimed the average chinese student cheats, you deranged retard, but I wouldn't be surprised if in some parts of China, it's close to universal) and once again mock the CNN articles , as more jealousy from white subhumans (that have been "repeatedly broadcasted for ages"- I thought all of the claims of chinese students came out only in the past few years and were all thanks to that Dastardly laowai Loveless?), even though many of the articles I've cited are about INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS, and on tests UNRELATED TO THE PISA. Which you have yet to address, and just wave off as more propaganda.

    Of course people in the West cheat- people everywhere do. Just not as much as in mainland China, which goes with the fact the was is by and large a far better place than modern mainland China.

    Then you go into some bizarre, megalomaniacal, supremacist rant about how white subhumans have to be told how to behave by kings, which the Chinese are, who all have intrinsic, unshakeable racial pride, intellect etc., that "slaves" like Loveless (there is no doubt you have a personal grudge against him), and even a dirt-poor Chinese peasant living in the countryside has always behaved far better (even now!) than natural slave whites.

    So uh, I thought you didn't deny that China is a horribly corrupt country now, and that the modern mainland chinese are very dysfunctional (except when it comes to education?) Or did you just see a great opportunity for a psychotic, racist rant?

    I was really debating whether I should continue debating with Panda, but after this, I think I'm done. I'm curious to see what Jayman will say about this maniac and how far off he is from China's average IQ/prowess. Jayman seems to believe China's modern dysfunction is pretty much genetic though, so that could be interesting- an HBDer who takes seriously claims of poor, impoverished, diseased chinese students outscoring swiss ones, and a psychotic chinese supremacist.

    Still, Panda doesn't really strike me as a good example of chinese intellect. He has the beligerence, crassness, disregard of etiquitte, narcissism etc. that modern mainland chinese have gotten a reputation for (but variously sees this as a good thing), but he just doesn't come off as that bright. Things like the poor grammar, bizarre writing style, inability to accept new ideas and more don't give the best impression off a race of polymaths.

    As a few more things with Panda, you've been repeatedly claiming all chinese average very high IQ's. I'm not sure how it's far off to get from you that diaspora chinese are represenative (or is this something about inland chinese being the smarest?), and CNN (you have a grudge against them too clearly) claimed they're represenative. Unless you think the CNN articles all claimed they're all of mediocre/low IQ and only seem smart because of cheating, cramming etc.

    If you really want to see something like that, check out this post, from someone who ultimately alludes to east asians having significantly lower IQ's than whites (which is crazy, but you might find it interesting): http://mpcdot.com/forums/topic/4163-plagiarized-effortpost-on-studyasians/#entry182899

    And really, what do you think the average chinese IQ really is? It's clearly not 100 or even the unbelievable 105-108 that HBDers often trot out. Is it 115? 120? 130? 150? 200? Beyond what any IQ test can measure?

    Finally, your reason for why the chinese have always been supergeniuses is because they've always had the most fertile landmass. Not that this made them smarter, that it introduced conditions that would allow them to enrich themselves, but the very fact they had this to begin with is why they were smarter.
    So chinese supergenius dates even before then? Damn, those ice age climates must have been more demanding than the biggest HBD weirdo ever fathomed! (But I doubt you'd accept siberians and inuits as being smarter than the chinese). And you'd then have to ask about things like the fact the Chinese are in reality a large amalgamation of ethnic groups with mixing dating back millenia, with large amounts of gene flow from southeast asia and elsewhere, that places with large amounts of Chinese admixture (much of southeast asia, including the Philippines) are in general ways even more backwards and unproductive than mainland China etc. But who knows- it could just be be beyond the comprehension of us laowai, simple as that.

    Oh, and european achievement extends well before the settling of the US. Like all the way to ancient Greece. And even in more ancient times, you could look to the renaissance a few centuries before and really throughout the middle ages. And how the US broke off from Britain. And the fact the industrial revolution began in Britain. And that american colonialism was in major ways never that beneficial to European powers. And that places like Germany, even in the modern era, produced immense scientific, cultural etc. achievements even though their colonial empire has been marginal. And that large parts of the US weren't even settled in substantial numbers until quite recently. And the US' achievements have generally been from a few areas. And that European achivement is disproportionately due to a relatively few number of countries.

    For all your trump up the Chinese being ahead because of their territory, don't you think it's kind of strange how for all of it's territory, it's historically large populations and long history and organization and such, the Chinese have been proportionately underperforming? They've been ahead at various points, but when you look at not just Europe, but many other civilizations that have produced remarkable accomplishments, have had generally much smaller populations. And no, I'm really not partial to the ideas of east asians being so uncreative, ultra-conformist, devoid of individuality etc., but if you want to go to this length, I don't think China's historical accomplishment is as impressive in face of it's population size and more.

    Just curious, but what do you think of Charles Murray's "Human Accomplishment?" I think many people misconstrue his work, because it's clearly about just a relatively small number of European countries, who didn't begin to really shine until the past several centuries (though Jayman couldn't help weaseling how northwest europe stacks up in this post) among other things, but I don't think his figures are that far off from reality.

    Oh, and India is a very fertile, comfortable country too- they have a similar population to China, and historically have been highly achieving too. But they're even worse off, and are probably of lower IQ than China, among other things.

    And finally, I love the dig about the "Anglon-Saxon's extremely invasive culture"- because China has never had imperial ambitions, in the past (like Vietnam and much of southeast asia) or even now, or exporting their culture to surrounding regions, or that such a thing is so alien to any nationalist/supremacist maniac. On top of shameless racial supremacy, you couldn't help throw in some time-worn white guilt.

    That’s enough you two. Further comments on the back and forth between the two of you will be deleted.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    Show 'em who's boss, Chanda!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @The most deplorable one
    Re: The Hajnal line (which you did not mention) however, there seems to be similar mating behaviors among some Indians ... would that be due to the common Indo European ancestry?

    Re: The Hajnal line (which you did not mention) however, there seems to be similar mating behaviors among some Indians … would that be due to the common Indo European ancestry?

    the traditional marriage pattern that john hajnal discovered — i.e. that (north)western europeans have for a very long time (since the medieval period) tended to marry late, a good percentage not at all, and to live in nuclear families — has, to date, not been found anywhere else in the world (although many societies have begun to adopt these practices in modern times). there’s a reason it’s known as the western european marriage pattern. pretty sure there aren’t any similar behaviors among any indian groups.

    even if there were, though, they wouldn’t be due to any common indo-european ancestry, since the set of practices in northwest europe developed during the middle ages and was connected to bipartite manorialism. in other words, these are not some ancient traditions that go back thousands of years. for more on this, see michael mitterauer’s Why Europe?. (^_^)

    Read More
    • Replies: @The most deplorable one
    These days I see much genetic influence on behavior and much less to do with tradition.

    The middle ages seems too recent for R = H^2 * S.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Advinesta
    In that entire rambling, narcissistic rant, you didn't bother cite to a single thing, especially what the jealous laowai beast Loveless censored. And yes, you can make a great many things up about academic performace, especially when it's about one of the most corrupt countries on the planet.

    Andreas Schleicer also claims that because the PISA 2012 Technical Background Annex claims theres "no cheating, whatsoever, involved". That's an incredible claim for any test, or that general cheating/cramming/rote memorization can't carry over to a great many tests, and Azerbaijan, a country that's generally done very poorly, also got caught cheating in 2009 on the PISA- but just 3 years later, in a country that's synonymous with corruption, that never happened.

    Yes, no chinese takes PISA seriously, but they still manage to do incredibly, and if they did, they'd be on an entirely different dimension compared to the other subhumans. You do atleast admit the "competitions for grades in chinese school are from another universe", which is a bad thing and would make things like cheating to a sizable degree a sensible option, but you keep telling me this doesn't really matter.

    You also saw "many" comments on chinese blogs about people complaining that the questions were too easy- great evidence. You might think, among other things, these weren't representative, but again, there's that laowai underestimation of chinese supergenius. And man, given that student spent in China is 1/20 that of the highest ranking OECD countries, maybe that average IQ of 130 on the part of China would really shine. How can us retarded, subhuman laoiwai even continue to argue?

    I guess it wasn't apparent enough that when I talk about cheating, I am mainly talkg about mainland chinese. Given that Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan are just about every basic way much better places than mainland china- cleaner, safer, vastly less corrupt etc. etc.- I wouldn't be surprised if cheating was far less of an issue in those places, nevermind how Hong Kong and Singapore are both city-states, the latter of which has very high immigration standards, promotes highly educated couples to have more children etc. Also, they make up a tiny fraction of the global chinese population.

    I also like the dig at the "relatively low IQ Korea and Japan"- they're the same race as you, but like a good east asian racist, you can't help but make a dig at those pathetic japs and gooks.

    And yes, cheating is a pretty big issue in South Korea too. I don't know about Japan, but probably much less.
    Yeah, yeah it does mind. You're actually, honest to god claiming that China is undoubtedly corrupt in every single conceivable fashion, EXCEPT for education, that breathtaking corruption and anomie and disregard of others in basically every facet of life is undeniable in modern China, but when it comes to
    And I won't deny China would be vastly better off if not for those things- in fact, they could potentially be the leading superpower. But the roots of China's dysfunction are deep, and go back up to a few centuries (and in ways even further), and while much of it could be layed at what it's suffered in the last century, China has a long way to go before it ever frees itself of it's pathologies.

    You admit just a "tiny percentage" of chinese students cheat, (and I never claimed the average chinese student cheats, you deranged retard, but I wouldn't be surprised if in some parts of China, it's close to universal) and once again mock the CNN articles , as more jealousy from white subhumans (that have been "repeatedly broadcasted for ages"- I thought all of the claims of chinese students came out only in the past few years and were all thanks to that Dastardly laowai Loveless?), even though many of the articles I've cited are about INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS, and on tests UNRELATED TO THE PISA. Which you have yet to address, and just wave off as more propaganda.

    Of course people in the West cheat- people everywhere do. Just not as much as in mainland China, which goes with the fact the was is by and large a far better place than modern mainland China.

    Then you go into some bizarre, megalomaniacal, supremacist rant about how white subhumans have to be told how to behave by kings, which the Chinese are, who all have intrinsic, unshakeable racial pride, intellect etc., that "slaves" like Loveless (there is no doubt you have a personal grudge against him), and even a dirt-poor Chinese peasant living in the countryside has always behaved far better (even now!) than natural slave whites.

    So uh, I thought you didn't deny that China is a horribly corrupt country now, and that the modern mainland chinese are very dysfunctional (except when it comes to education?) Or did you just see a great opportunity for a psychotic, racist rant?

    I was really debating whether I should continue debating with Panda, but after this, I think I'm done. I'm curious to see what Jayman will say about this maniac and how far off he is from China's average IQ/prowess. Jayman seems to believe China's modern dysfunction is pretty much genetic though, so that could be interesting- an HBDer who takes seriously claims of poor, impoverished, diseased chinese students outscoring swiss ones, and a psychotic chinese supremacist.

    Still, Panda doesn't really strike me as a good example of chinese intellect. He has the beligerence, crassness, disregard of etiquitte, narcissism etc. that modern mainland chinese have gotten a reputation for (but variously sees this as a good thing), but he just doesn't come off as that bright. Things like the poor grammar, bizarre writing style, inability to accept new ideas and more don't give the best impression off a race of polymaths.

    As a few more things with Panda, you've been repeatedly claiming all chinese average very high IQ's. I'm not sure how it's far off to get from you that diaspora chinese are represenative (or is this something about inland chinese being the smarest?), and CNN (you have a grudge against them too clearly) claimed they're represenative. Unless you think the CNN articles all claimed they're all of mediocre/low IQ and only seem smart because of cheating, cramming etc.

    If you really want to see something like that, check out this post, from someone who ultimately alludes to east asians having significantly lower IQ's than whites (which is crazy, but you might find it interesting): http://mpcdot.com/forums/topic/4163-plagiarized-effortpost-on-studyasians/#entry182899

    And really, what do you think the average chinese IQ really is? It's clearly not 100 or even the unbelievable 105-108 that HBDers often trot out. Is it 115? 120? 130? 150? 200? Beyond what any IQ test can measure?

    Finally, your reason for why the chinese have always been supergeniuses is because they've always had the most fertile landmass. Not that this made them smarter, that it introduced conditions that would allow them to enrich themselves, but the very fact they had this to begin with is why they were smarter.
    So chinese supergenius dates even before then? Damn, those ice age climates must have been more demanding than the biggest HBD weirdo ever fathomed! (But I doubt you'd accept siberians and inuits as being smarter than the chinese). And you'd then have to ask about things like the fact the Chinese are in reality a large amalgamation of ethnic groups with mixing dating back millenia, with large amounts of gene flow from southeast asia and elsewhere, that places with large amounts of Chinese admixture (much of southeast asia, including the Philippines) are in general ways even more backwards and unproductive than mainland China etc. But who knows- it could just be be beyond the comprehension of us laowai, simple as that.

    Oh, and european achievement extends well before the settling of the US. Like all the way to ancient Greece. And even in more ancient times, you could look to the renaissance a few centuries before and really throughout the middle ages. And how the US broke off from Britain. And the fact the industrial revolution began in Britain. And that american colonialism was in major ways never that beneficial to European powers. And that places like Germany, even in the modern era, produced immense scientific, cultural etc. achievements even though their colonial empire has been marginal. And that large parts of the US weren't even settled in substantial numbers until quite recently. And the US' achievements have generally been from a few areas. And that European achivement is disproportionately due to a relatively few number of countries.

    For all your trump up the Chinese being ahead because of their territory, don't you think it's kind of strange how for all of it's territory, it's historically large populations and long history and organization and such, the Chinese have been proportionately underperforming? They've been ahead at various points, but when you look at not just Europe, but many other civilizations that have produced remarkable accomplishments, have had generally much smaller populations. And no, I'm really not partial to the ideas of east asians being so uncreative, ultra-conformist, devoid of individuality etc., but if you want to go to this length, I don't think China's historical accomplishment is as impressive in face of it's population size and more.

    Just curious, but what do you think of Charles Murray's "Human Accomplishment?" I think many people misconstrue his work, because it's clearly about just a relatively small number of European countries, who didn't begin to really shine until the past several centuries (though Jayman couldn't help weaseling how northwest europe stacks up in this post) among other things, but I don't think his figures are that far off from reality.

    Oh, and India is a very fertile, comfortable country too- they have a similar population to China, and historically have been highly achieving too. But they're even worse off, and are probably of lower IQ than China, among other things.

    And finally, I love the dig about the "Anglon-Saxon's extremely invasive culture"- because China has never had imperial ambitions, in the past (like Vietnam and much of southeast asia) or even now, or exporting their culture to surrounding regions, or that such a thing is so alien to any nationalist/supremacist maniac. On top of shameless racial supremacy, you couldn't help throw in some time-worn white guilt.

    So you try to overwhelm Panda with a sea of gibberish using your much less valuable evening hours? ROFL. Now Panda gived you a sea of wisdom! LOL

    Panda coming back to you in length is in the spirit to take the opportunity reaching wider audiences using your common MSM low IQ hit piece taking points, apart from giving you a competitive and free education in this area- please don’t take it personally, Panda has no intention at all to disrespect you as a person, but just being too polite to miss this chance to greatly enhance your knowledge and intellectual enlightenment. Saluting Panda for the very precious time & effort input or not is not important though:

    In that entire rambling, narcissistic rant, you didn’t bother cite to a single thing, especially what the jealous laowai beast Loveless censored. And yes, you can make a great many things up about academic performace, especially when it’s about one of the most corrupt countries on the planet.

    That’s not true. Panda cited Panda a lot. Most of the CNN-cartel “journalist” trolls you cited could not intellectually count up to 20 without taking off their socks while in schools – and many still can’t, while being busying at regurgitating their politically-oriented editorial lines in the desperate hope to keep their pathetically low-paying jobs to foot their monthly household bills. Morally and intellectually speaking most of them are not fit to hold the suitcase of Panda’s secretary, to be honest. For your own good, next time you want to cite sth shining, go ahead citing Panda.

    On test scores , China never cheats – 1 of 2 Panda points that is closed for discussion. Zhejiang’s scores were communicated to them by OECD. All the scores of 12 provinces of China currently sit at archive of OECD PISA in Paris, albeit not being publicly released yet. So you are running a full risk of being ridiculed by your own ridiculous accusation. LoL

    [MORE]

    Andreas Schleicer also claims that because the PISA 2012 Technical Background Annex claims theres “no cheating, whatsoever, involved”. That’s an incredible claim for any test, or that general cheating/cramming/rote memorization can’t carry over to a great many tests, and Azerbaijan, a country that’s generally done very poorly, also got caught cheating in 2009 on the PISA- but just 3 years later, in a country that’s synonymous with corruption, that never happened.

    Panda trusts Andreas´s claim way more than you (and Loveless as well for that matter) as he and his armies of OECD PISA colleagues have all the factual test backups in their drawers, you not, sorry pal.

    Yes, no chinese takes PISA seriously, but they still manage to do incredibly, and if they did, they’d be on an entirely different dimension compared to the other subhumans.

    Yes, Panda doesn’t take breakfast seriously, but Panda still manage to eat an incredible full course of it every morning. And George Clooney doesn’t take ladies seriously, but darn it, he still manages to have a lot at flip of fingers. What’s your friggin point? ROFL

    And pls, stop having so much inferiority complex keep addressing yourself `subman`. Panda has not called you so. You do it to yourself.

    You do atleast admit the “competitions for grades in chinese school are from another universe”, which is a bad thing and would make things like cheating to a sizable degree a sensible option, but you keep telling me this doesn’t really matter.

    Panda tells you again: it doesn´t matter. No matter what and when, cheating is inside ALL human societies and all walks of life. But % are small which doesn´t affect the average (hello, kitty?!) too much. On top of that, in any very competitive environment, more often than not the top guys have more incentive to cheat than less smart guys, rather than the other way around, for a natural reason of getting further ahead. So the cheating itself is not a sufficient proof, as it happens often, that the cheating guy is not relatively more capable than others even without cheating. Such examples have been abundant in all walks of life since eons :

    president-to-be Obama had much stronger incentives to cheat, as he did, on his uni grades than a small time county chief-to-be…

    billionaire Donald Trump has – had much stronger incentives to cheat, as he did/is doing, on his tax issues, moral issues etc. than an average salaried construction worker…

    Wall Street-City of London top bankers elite traders have much stronger incentives to cheat, as they did/are doing, on libor rate fixings, rating mythologies, economy outlook etc a shit load of youknowhat than a high-school dropout bank cashier at the front desk…

    Multiple true championship holders like Marion Jones, Justin Gatlin, Ben Johnson etc had much stronger incentives to cheat, as they did, than a mediocre runner such as Panda who can not even reach the school sport meeting final, let alone on the world stage…

    etc etc use your imagination…

    However, their cheating itself is not a sufficient accusation evidence that those guys are intellectually -professionally less capable than their counterparts in their corresponding fields, as you, and your low IQ CNN cartel hit campaign gangs, insinuate to be all the time. Is that clear enough, chief?

    And man, given that student spent in China is 1/20 that of the highest ranking OECD countries, maybe that average IQ of 130 on the part of China would really shine. How can us retarded, subhuman laoiwai even continue to argue?

    Panda didn´t claim 130, you did.

    And again, rid off your inferiority complex and stop calling yourself `subhuman`.

    I guess it wasn’t apparent enough that when I talk about cheating, I am mainly talkg about mainland chinese. Given that Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan are just about every basic way much better places than mainland china- cleaner, safer, vastly less corrupt etc. etc.- I wouldn’t be surprised if cheating was far less of an issue in those places, nevermind how Hong Kong and Singapore are both city-states, the latter of which has very high immigration standards, promotes highly educated couples to have more children etc. Also, they make up a tiny fraction of the global chinese population.

    So you think Singapore HK and Taiwan represent the best crop of the Han Chinese? LMAO! it is not even funny.

    None of them can even reach 80 percentile in the national ranking by provinces (and most of them themselves know it if being honest) if take Chinas annual Gaokao exam – the worlds most competitive one . If go against all Han Chinese-majority provinces, Panda doubt any of them could reach 70 or even 60 percentile, most likely the average instead. More than half of poor provinces would eat them alive for breakfast on maths and sciences — Go ask any Chinese student, any, in wherever corner of the world you are from.

    I also like the dig at the “relatively low IQ Korea and Japan”- they’re the same race as you, but like a good east asian racist, you can’t help but make a dig at those pathetic japs and gooks.

    Oh you do? Or you don’t have a faintest clue at all? LMAO

    The same race doesn’t not necessarily means the same. French, Italians, Irish, Serbians, Germans and Greeks etc are of the same race as well, but are they interchangeable?

    Nothing personal and national, the best analogy Panda can come up with is that:

    If the current EU (including the UK) kept united for the next 2,000 years, then that EU would be China, Denmark would be Korea, and Iceland or Ireland would be Japan.

    Intellectually, culturally, economically, technologically, racially, it has been more or less like that throughout the history.

    .

    And yes, cheating is a pretty big issue in South Korea too. I don’t know about Japan, but probably much less.
    Yeah, yeah it does mind. You’re actually, honest to god claiming that China is undoubtedly corrupt in every single conceivable fashion, EXCEPT for education, that breathtaking corruption and anomie and disregard of others in basically every facet of life is undeniable in modern China, but when it comes to
    And I won’t deny China would be vastly better off if not for those things- in fact, they could potentially be the leading superpower. But the roots of China’s dysfunction are deep, and go back up to a few centuries (and in ways even further), and while much of it could be layed at what it’s suffered in the last century, China has a long way to go before it ever frees itself of it’s pathologies. .

    Correct to a large extend, which makes Panda see a dim light at the end of the tunnel that even some morons are redeemable. LOL

    Correct to a large extend, not for the reason you think you know.

    Western law-based and Confucius ideal-based societies each are a double-edged sword. The topic was debated extensively for hundreds of years 2,200 years ago in China. Each of them has its pros and cons, depending which angle or time frame one looks at. No one would have imagine law-based democratic egalitarian rich just and fair society of Sweden would become what it is today merely 20 years ago, imagine 50 years later or 200 years later…then how about France? Belgium? UK? US?… Wall Street, Capitol Hill, your beloved CNN, Hollywood and of course Hufflingtonpost have nothing to do with widespread deep-rooted lethal corruptions? Is that your otherwise low IQ delusion you’re too shy to share with Panda btw? ROFL

    .

    You admit just a “tiny percentage” of chinese students cheat, (and I never claimed the average chinese student cheats, you deranged retard, but I wouldn’t be surprised if in some parts of China, it’s close to universal) and once again mock the CNN articles , as more jealousy from white subhumans (that have been “repeatedly broadcasted for ages”- I thought all of the claims of chinese students came out only in the past few years and were all thanks to that Dastardly laowai Loveless?), even though many of the articles I’ve cited are about INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS, and on tests UNRELATED TO THE PISA. Which you have yet to address, and just wave off as more propaganda. .

    Which one? Unrelated to PISA, but nonetheless from your beloved hufflingtonpost?

    Yep, propanganda.

    Next?

    .

    Of course people in the West cheat- people everywhere do. Just not as much as in mainland China, which goes with the fact the was is by and large a far better place than modern mainland China. .

    But that is not the question, sunshine.

    The intellectual question is for how long?

    .

    Then you go into some bizarre, megalomaniacal, supremacist rant about how white subhumans have to be told how to behave by kings, which the Chinese are, who all have intrinsic, unshakeable racial pride, intellect etc., that “slaves” like Loveless (there is no doubt you have a personal grudge against him), and even a dirt-poor Chinese peasant living in the countryside has always behaved far better (even now!) than natural slave whites. .

    Panda sees that your reading comprehension has been kept below 90 IQ level by your inferiority complex.

    Let Panda help you further with what the analogy was about:

    The Chinese Civilisation has been the rule-setter on all spheres throughout history in the immediate worthy geo-area that we cared to cover. We don’t follow the manners and etiquettes set by your Queen, most of which essentially are as shallow as $$$-based, woops sorry!

    We follow Confucius manners and etiquettes where morality of culture is way more important than how much money you have. A Chinese peasant who makes a living on his portion of rice field may not have (and he won’t give a damn)your Queen’s manners and etiquettes, but his inner morality of culture is usually far more superior than many of you lot who just won a lottery ticket 200 years ago.

    But intellectually we are open. We Chinese take what we see as valuable ideas whenever we look around at outside world (there aren’t all idiots all the time out there, right? LOL), improve them, and implement them to improve ourselves, but resolutely keep our path as Chinese Civilisation with mentality of a king.

    King mentality: why I care about what you think about me? who the fuck are you?
    Slave mentality: look, that’s what all others are doing/saying, and CNN, and Huff…Hufflingtonpost…oh my lord! that’s what I must do/say, too.

    老當益壯,甯移白首之心? 窮且益堅,不墜青雲之志. (even though becoming old, stronger I will be. How can I change my mind because of my grey hair? Even though becoming poor due to today’s circumstances, more affirmed my will is, and my sky-high ambition will never be affected – Confucius Tang Poem)

    Comparing this “etiquette-less” dirt poor peasant to your random nouveau riche dressing like a fag flashing wallet to the waitresses at the Four Seasons afternoon tea session, who is the King now?

    Yeah, bow!

    .

    So uh, I thought you didn’t deny that China is a horribly corrupt country now, and that the modern mainland chinese are very dysfunctional (except when it comes to education?) Or did you just see a great opportunity for a psychotic, racist rant? .

    Panda thought that you’ve been told that 2 things are not for discussion: avg test scores and Chinese food. You have a short memory.

    “Modern Chinese are dysfunctional”? LMAO. Your stupidity has no lower bound. Say even at “dyfuncational” Chinese studs still beat the shit out of you in avg test scores. ROFL The only dyfunational about modern China is its dysfunctional political and economical “elites” supported to power by the borrowed Western (Soviets/Jewish) Communist fake ideals. The question you should ask yourself is even the modern Chinese at out lowest point in history, relatively speaking, we still are the most economically dynamic region on this blue planet.

    Unlike most others of our competitors who have free hands to do anything they want for friggin 100 years in a row, even we started running FAR later from the starting line, and still have got our hands and feet tied up by the unfair Western Communist crap, in the fierce all-out global competitions, we are still about to lead the world technologically and economically. That tells much about avg IQ, doesn’t it genius? Now you can have a pity on yourself. ROFL

    .

    I was really debating whether I should continue debating with Panda, but after this, I think I’m done. I’m curious to see what Jayman will say about this maniac and how far off he is from China’s average IQ/prowess. Jayman seems to believe China’s modern dysfunction is pretty much genetic though, so that could be interesting- an HBDer who takes seriously claims of poor, impoverished, diseased chinese students outscoring swiss ones, and a psychotic chinese supremacist. .

    Yes, slaves like you listen to what others have to say; Kings like Panda say what they think, regardless of what the others think. LMAO.

    And yes, poor, impoverished, diseased Chinese students on avg have been beating swiss ones with one eye closed since the first day Europe copied China’s universal exam system centuries ago.

    .

    Still, Panda doesn’t really strike me as a good example of chinese intellect. He has the beligerence, crassness, disregard of etiquitte, narcissism etc. that modern mainland chinese have gotten a reputation for (but variously sees this as a good thing), but he just doesn’t come off as that bright. Things like the poor grammar, bizarre writing style, inability to accept new ideas and more don’t give the best impression off a race of polymaths. .

    Thank you very much for the compliments! Considering the current evolving state of your frontal lobe, Panda feels truly flattered. ROFL

    .

    As a few more things with Panda, you’ve been repeatedly claiming .all chinese average .very high IQ’s. I’m not sure how it’s far off to get from you that diaspora chinese are represenative (or is this something about inland chinese being the smarest?), and CNN (you have a grudge against them too clearly) claimed they’re represenative. Unless you think the CNN articles all claimed they’re all of mediocre/low IQ and only seem smart because of cheating, cramming etc. .

    Dude, you do have an issue with the concept of “average”. Go take an evening course on it. LMAO

    For the rest part, Panda doesn’t know what you’re gibberishing about…So your moral compass and intellectual hero CNN says blah blah again? Who the fuck is CNN? LOL

    .

    If you really want to see something like that, check out this post, from someone who ultimately alludes to east asians having significantly lower IQ’s than whites (which is crazy, but you might find it interesting):http://mpcdot.com/forums/topic/4163-plagiarized-effortpost-on-studyasians/#entry182899 .

    Examination result: that blog runner is a retard, intellectually not fit enough to clean Panda’s pows.

    .

    And really, what do you think the average chinese IQ really is? It’s clearly not 100 or even the unbelievable 105-108 that HBDers often trot out. Is it 115? 120? 130? 150? 200? Beyond what any IQ test can measure? .

    There is no “average”Chinese, just like there is no “average”American, get it?

    Panda´s best educated guess is that there are about 100 mio to 200 mio certain sub tribes of Han Chinese who currently have avg IQ slightly more than 110. With some Flynn effect (i.e. about equivalent to reach the OECD nutrition, general health care, and income level) they have potential to reach more than 115 to even somewhere high teens.

    The vast majority of the rest Han Chinese however, could be anywhere between about 105 (current ) to slightly above 108 (with Flynn) – slightly above the current HK (108) level.

    Most highly Hannised minorities could have about 100. The Muslim Hui Chinese about low-mid 90s. Turkic Muslims in the Western region low-mid 80s, Tibetens probably even lower.

    .

    Finally, your reason for why the chinese have always been supergeniuses is because they’ve always had the most fertile landmass. Not that this made them smarter, that it introduced conditions that would allow them to enrich themselves, but the very fact they had this to begin with is why they were smarter. . So chinese supergenius dates even before then? Damn, those ice age climates must have been more demanding than the biggest HBD weirdo ever fathomed! (But I doubt you’d accept siberians and inuits as being smarter than the chinese).

    Most likely both: smarter to start with to get the land; which (i.e. develope the land, keep the land from foreign hands, “snowball effect’ out of long-lasting peace and prosperity in the course of millennia etc.) also has benefited the people to become even smarter. Conquering the land is one thing, developing the land and keeping the land over a long history are many other things on top of it.

    .

    And you’d then have to ask about things like the fact the Chinese are in reality a large amalgamation of ethnic groups with mixing dating back millenia, with large amounts of gene flow from.southeast asia and elsewhere, that places with large amounts of Chinese admixture (much of southeast asia, including the Philippines) are in general ways even more backwards and unproductive than mainland China etc. But who knows- it could just be be beyond the comprehension of us laowai, simple as that. .

    Mostly “To” southeast asia, not “from”, because the simple logic that the strongest expand in the course of history, pushing outwards to others in general instead of the other way around. Philippines is about the country with the least % of Han blood in Southeast Asia, about 1%? – which included Amy Chua.

    .

    For all your trump up the Chinese being ahead because of their territory, don’t you think it’s kind of strange how for all of it’s territory, it’s historically large populations and long history and organization and such, the Chinese have been proportionately underperforming? They’ve been ahead at various points, but when you look at not just Europe, but many other civilizations that have produced remarkable accomplishments, have had generally much smaller populations. And no, I’m really not partial to the ideas of east asians being so uncreative, ultra-conformist, devoid of individuality etc., but if you want to go to this length, I don’t think China’s historical accomplishment is as impressive in face of it’s population size and more.

    A combi of many reasons for that, as it is logically expected. One of the major and simplest reasons is that disproportionably larger portion of the population of a larger country with large population can afford more luxury of layback lifestyle most of the time vís-a-vís a closely comparable yet much smaller population of a much smaller country – it is human nature that when you are rich and big, you will gradually become lazier, then decadent, then until the day you collapse, then the cycle starts all over again… Tiny countries such as Luxemburg, Switzerland, Netherlands or Belgium on per cap basis beat Germany and the US most of the time, so what? Guess what, the world’s most innovative country on per cap innovation basis is probably tiny Taiwan – far more than Japan or Germany or South Korea, whereas the 99% of the common people in the street would guess it probably would be the latter.

    .

    Just curious, but what do you think of Charles Murray’s “Human Accomplishment?” I think many people misconstrue his work, because it’s clearly about just a relatively small number of European countries, who didn’t begin to really shine until the past several centuries (though Jayman couldn’t help weaseling how northwest europe stacks up in this post) among other things, but I don’t think his figures are that far off from reality. .

    Long story short, generally sounds oke, but Panda thinks that Murray’s intellectual dishonesty on comparing fundamentally un-quantifiable achievements of entirely different nature and sorts from entirely different historical backgrounds and time frames causes him to make some wrong conclusions.

    .

    Oh, and India is a very fertile, comfortable country too- they have a similar population to China, and historically have been highly achieving too. But they’re even worse off, and are probably of lower IQ than China, among other things. .

    India is comfortable? ROFL. C’mon now. It took han Chinese probably 1,000 years to get used to the climate of Canton which is far better than hot steaming, mosquito-tropical disease thrived India. India’s current large population size, alongwith Sub Sahara Africa’s, is the legacy of post WW2 peaceful United Nation Charters which don’t allows foreign invasions and grant endless food aids, economical handouts, and free medicines from UN agencies together with countless NGOs. It won’t be able to sustain them, both India and Africa, in the longer course of natural evolutionary history.

    .

    And finally, I love the dig about the “Anglon-Saxon’s extremely invasive culture”- because China has never had imperial ambitions, in the past (like Vietnam and much of southeast asia) or even now, or exporting their culture to surrounding regions, or that such a thing is so alien to any nationalist/supremacist maniac. On top of shameless racial supremacy, you couldn’t help throw in some time-worn white guilt. .

    Glad that you like it, since it’s true. A tribe originated in Germany/England end up colonising half of the world 8,000 miles away can be described nothing short of “extremely invasive”, China is different – how many km is China from Korea or Japan or Northern Vietnam?

    And No, it is not shameless to tell that the blue is superiorly more blueish than the green, as it is objectively true. It’s nothing shameful to tell the truth. Yet it only becomes shameless when the blue have a clear contempt towards the green or even argue to eliminate it, to which Panda has never been even remotely close.

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  • @Bliss

    The correlation is obvious, even if it is less than perfect.
     
    According to your map:

    Eskimos et al have the biggest brains. Do they have higher IQ than east asians?

    The japanese have the same size brains as MENAs, mexicans, malays and many SSAs; yet their IQ is from one to two SD higher.

    Africans on average have bigger brains than south asians and indo-chinese (burmese, thai, cambodian, vietnamese, lao). That does not correlate to their respective IQs.

    The southern euros are cranially equal to MENAs etc yet there is 1 SD difference in IQ.

    The british have smaller brains than mainland western europeans yet there is no difference in IQ. Ditto for the japanese vs east asians.

    The uighurs, uzbeks, kyrgyz turks of central asia are equal to germans, scandinavians etc in brain size yet differ substantially in IQ.


    It is obvious that your map does not support your claim.

    According to your map:

    Eskimos et al have the biggest brains. Do they have higher IQ than east asians?

    Look, when a correlation is 0 < r < 1, you'll see an overall pattern, even though there will be discrepancies. I didn't say brain size is commensurate with average IQ (i.e., r = 1.0), only that there is a positive relationship. Yes, you’re right about the discrepancies, but look at the big picture.

    This is rather sophomoric, so I don’t really want to talk about it again here.

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  • @JayMan

    This was relevant to the topic. No one says that population averages are precisely equal. What I’m saying is that you claim differences, but have nothing to say about the magnitude (or direction) of those differences.
     
    Come on Aaron: you ever hear of the expression "grasping at straws?" No, equal selection in all cognitive and behavioral traits is so unlikely it's not worth considering. And even beyond what we'd expect from theory, there is the fact that we have measurable differences between groups. We do indeed have plenty of data on the size and the magnitude. Hence this whole exercise is might silly.

    No natural phenomenon produces a simple pattern of exact equality. Looking at say mountain ranges across the world average attitude varies substantially although the different ranges are all formed by roughly similar processes of tectonic uplift and erosian. No two mountain ranges are any thing like identical.

    No biological trait works like equalitarians claim intelligence works. Average height of human populations varies over about four standard deviations somewhat similar to the variation in meeasured IQ.

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  • The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:

    Re: The Hajnal line (which you did not mention) however, there seems to be similar mating behaviors among some Indians … would that be due to the common Indo European ancestry?

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    • Replies: @hbd chick

    Re: The Hajnal line (which you did not mention) however, there seems to be similar mating behaviors among some Indians … would that be due to the common Indo European ancestry?
     
    the traditional marriage pattern that john hajnal discovered -- i.e. that (north)western europeans have for a very long time (since the medieval period) tended to marry late, a good percentage not at all, and to live in nuclear families -- has, to date, not been found anywhere else in the world (although many societies have begun to adopt these practices in modern times). there's a reason it's known as the western european marriage pattern. pretty sure there aren't any similar behaviors among any indian groups.

    even if there were, though, they wouldn't be due to any common indo-european ancestry, since the set of practices in northwest europe developed during the middle ages and was connected to bipartite manorialism. in other words, these are not some ancient traditions that go back thousands of years. for more on this, see michael mitterauer's Why Europe?. (^_^)

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  • @JayMan

    Did you even study your map? There is no real correlation between brain size and IQ there.
     
    I did study the map. The correlation is obvious, even if it is less than perfect.

    Secondly, Einstein’s brain was measured at 1230 gms.
     
    Read Rushton & Jensen 2010 above on that. Again, understand the difference between a 1.0 correlation and a 0.0 correlation. This is the last time I'm going to tell you.

    The correlation is obvious, even if it is less than perfect.

    According to your map:

    Eskimos et al have the biggest brains. Do they have higher IQ than east asians?

    The japanese have the same size brains as MENAs, mexicans, malays and many SSAs; yet their IQ is from one to two SD higher.

    Africans on average have bigger brains than south asians and indo-chinese (burmese, thai, cambodian, vietnamese, lao). That does not correlate to their respective IQs.

    The southern euros are cranially equal to MENAs etc yet there is 1 SD difference in IQ.

    The british have smaller brains than mainland western europeans yet there is no difference in IQ. Ditto for the japanese vs east asians.

    The uighurs, uzbeks, kyrgyz turks of central asia are equal to germans, scandinavians etc in brain size yet differ substantially in IQ.

    It is obvious that your map does not support your claim.

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    According to your map:

    Eskimos et al have the biggest brains. Do they have higher IQ than east asians?
     

    Look, when a correlation is 0 < r < 1, you'll see an overall pattern, even though there will be discrepancies. I didn't say brain size is commensurate with average IQ (i.e., r = 1.0), only that there is a positive relationship. Yes, you're right about the discrepancies, but look at the big picture.

    This is rather sophomoric, so I don't really want to talk about it again here.

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  • @Advinesta
    If you go south of the atlas mountains, you'll end up outside of Morocco's borders and into the sahara, and you'll still be a long ways off from medieval Ghana. You're really reaching here.

    You want me to be right, and you can find out I am if you look at the wikipedia articles you've linked and I have. And yeah, you could probably say that about Athens, but you could also say the same about other huge places at various points in history. Again, you're really reaching.

    I'm pretty sure medieval Ghana's most populated parts were in the southern and eastern regions (it's capital was in the south), and not the parts that went into Mauritania. Ghana also has a higher HDI, GDP etc. than Mauritania, so I don't buy your claims it's better off. Mauritania is a total backwater, with only a few million people, and was mostly nomadic until recently. It's also mostly arab/berber and mixed, and somehow has conditions worse than much of SS africa.

    One last thing- given Mauritania has the world’s highest rate of slavery, I’d say that also easily puts it as a worse place than modern Ghana.

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  • @Advinesta
    You are confusing the label of "EMPIRE OF GHANA" on that map with it's exact location. The name is not where Ghana was located, it's the orange, colored area with Kumbi Saleh and Jenne-Jeno. Notice how there's no colored area where "EMPIRE OF GHANA" is. Or how that area is in a region of the sahara that's always been barely populated (not Morocco, or anywhere you could expect an empire to be centered.)

    You're the one who has it wrong, because you follow the kneejerk reaction of excusing achievements in SS africa on the part of berbers/arabs to such an extent you'll actually claim old Ghana was in Morocco.

    What do you even know about those societies shown on that map? They ranged from large tribal polities to indigenous states with advanced art, to empires with many cities, written language and literature, and extensive trade with the rest of the world. You can find more on that page you linked, but I guess it's easier to wave it all of as afrocentrism.

    Europeans were able to colonize the Americas so easily because of disease that wiped out many natives and more advanced technology (and no, I don't think they had that for reasons as narrow as you think.) It also took modern humans awhile to fully populate Eurasia, an incredible amount of time to even reach the Americas, and many pacific islands weren't even populated until the middle ages.

    We know there were humans in south africa tens of thousands years ago, and they were certainly much more primitive than the bantus. Populations migrate for a myriad number of reasons, and africa's population history is very old and complex.

    I don't laugh at Sailer, but I will criticize him when he's wrong, and I will criticize Jayman for relying on his ill-informed to outright dumb theories on africa's underdevelopment (like that bit about elephants.)

    If you go south of the atlas mountains, you’ll end up outside of Morocco’s borders and into the sahara, and you’ll still be a long ways off from medieval Ghana. You’re really reaching here.

    You want me to be right, and you can find out I am if you look at the wikipedia articles you’ve linked and I have. And yeah, you could probably say that about Athens, but you could also say the same about other huge places at various points in history. Again, you’re really reaching.

    I’m pretty sure medieval Ghana’s most populated parts were in the southern and eastern regions (it’s capital was in the south), and not the parts that went into Mauritania. Ghana also has a higher HDI, GDP etc. than Mauritania, so I don’t buy your claims it’s better off. Mauritania is a total backwater, with only a few million people, and was mostly nomadic until recently. It’s also mostly arab/berber and mixed, and somehow has conditions worse than much of SS africa.

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    One last thing- given Mauritania has the world's highest rate of slavery, I'd say that also easily puts it as a worse place than modern Ghana.
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  • @PandaAtWar

    Wow, that sounds reliable!

    But correct me if I’m wrong- your argument is that jealous laowai tried to tear down chinese performance in the OECD PISA by focusing on the “houkou cheat method”, but it turns out that the poorer Zhejiang province lacked this method altogether, and to top it off, the scores were not only deliberately selected from the poorest areas (in contrast to random samples with most others), but none of the elite schools in Zhejiang province participated, which comes as no surprise to any chinese student about this breathtaking superiority.
     
    One just can't make those up. Yes, your reading comprehension is correct thus far.


    And since Zhejian province is a coastal, more developed urban province, who knows what super-geniuses we could readily find in the poorer, inland provinces?
     
    No details leaked on others as precise as Zhejiang so far. But Andreas Schleicher claims that even the most deprived/poorest inland areas in China, the performance was up to standard of OECD countries such as France etc.

    Panda would say the similar if take an educated guess :

    1. any inland poor province (with ethnic Han Chinese majority) would rank at least top 25 in the world if standalone in almost all 3 categories of reading, science and maths (maths&science particularly could be within top 20) under normal circumstances, which mean that the students will pay good attentions to PISA exam - because right now, no Chinese stud take PISA seriously since it weights zero in terms of helping their own grades in schools, and the unhumnaly fierce competitions for grades in Chinese schools are like from another universe.

    2. furthermore, if China's 20 or so Han-Chinese-majority provinces, both inland and coastal including HK/Taiwan, take PISA at a standalone basis, they would monopoly PISA's top 20 ranking, except perhaps leaving 2 spots to Singapore and Korea which would stand somewhere outside the top 10. That picture alone of "all Chinese affair" would basically destroy the "game" of PISA as it would become too boring and predictable. What? Finland? ~LoL, it could just forget about top 20 in most cases!

    3. and the picture would look even more dramatic, IF PISA's questions could become drastically more difficult than how they are --- there were much complains in Chinese student blogosphere that PISA 2012 questions were tooo easy - it was equivalent to a sort of "grade inflation"overrall. The distance between China and the rest would have been greater had the questions been designed harder.

    All above are based on the fact that per cap educational spending of any of China's provinces (Shanghai included) stands at a tiny fraction (1/20? ) of that of most OECD competing counterparts in PISA. So basically they were/are not even standing at the same friggin starting line! Imagin what the scores would be if putting them at the same line which means 20X China's current per cap educational spending? And you, and retards such as Tom Loveless, still have face to argue... ROFL

    Cheating? knock it off! ROFL. Yeah, the Han Chinese got high scores on cheating, but how you explain away the other ( and ALL) ethnic Chinese top scorers inside top 5 ranking? HK was cheating? Singapore must be cheating? Taiwan must also be cheating? Even the relatively low IQ Korea and Japan were cheating as well? ROFL. Your, and your CNN & Associates Gangsta's, accusations were just downright retarded by definition, don't you realise it after Panda spells it out for ya?

    Nevermind the astonishing levels and degrees of corruption, social anomie, disregard of basic etiquette and norms, the poor value on human (and often times animal) life, the intellectual property theft, fraud etc. etc. that have permeated all levels of Chinese society for decades, but when it comes to academic performance, there’s next to none of that.
     
    No, it does mind! Imagine what scores would become if China rid off most of those corruption issues one day in the near future? oh my... ROFL

    At least some tiny percentage( not average, mind you genius) of the Chinese students sometimes do try hard to cheat or take a short cut whenever possible to get ahead more efficiently in their own ways. Their glorious stories, like the best thing after sliced bread, have been exaggerated and repeatedly broadcasted by your CNN & trolls for ages as an inferiority sour-grape cure for you sheeples -- "see? even the Chinese are not the gods all the time, a small fraction of them cheat!". ROFL

    In comparison, some of you in the West do cheat as well, let's be honest, but in your own funnier and lower IQ way, and mostly un-reported by your CNN gangsters. LOL, while some others of you just give up cheating all together, not because they are saints but because they are so thouroughly screwed up and give up future anyway, cheat? why bother? ROFL

    "disregard of "? ROFL. Popel with the real intrinsic high value such as Han Chinese wouldn't give 2 figs on what your so-called "basic etiquette and norms", but people like you can't live without it, WHY?

    Say, it's like in a nightclub, where a billinaire dropping by would not give 2 figs on what the rest think or judge his clothing or behaviors as he can just come in rags full of alcohol smell, but his intrinsic value system still makes him get chicks of 10 at ease, while you lot dressing in Armani, soaked in Ralph Lauren perfume, shakening and strutting around like "James Bonds" nearby at the counter end up dropping your draws, swallowing your salivas, watching how the billionaire in rags get the businesss done! --- Because you lot are busy at selling yourselves in entire your slave lives to the highest bidder, to the King, who tells you what are basic etiquette and norms (you gotta thank Queen Victoria who introduced you cutteries, table manners and how to dress barely 2 or 300 years ago after you lot devouring coarse soups and half-rare chicken legs with your bare hands for eons... ROFL) that you and only you must obey, and orders you what to do and not to do to be considered civilised, while the Han Chinese had been that the highest bidder , that King, that billionaire (sometimes in rags) themselves for the most part of the world's recorded history. Yes, that King-like attitude, that racial pride, and that unquestionable intellectual and cultural superiority are just imbedded in their blood stream DNAs. Even under the entreme poor conditions at any lowest point in our history, this beliefe system is rock solid! That's where slaves like Tom Loveless was dead wrong (when he considers the poor Chinese must be having lower IQ and lower test scores than richer Chinese, what a slave mentality!). A dirt-poor Han Chinese peasant living in countryside won't give a damn to your table cuturies, norms & etiquette, as he behaves like a King he've always been, while you are just a slave in Armani suit selling yourselves , a slave mentality nonetheless. That's WHY, honey. LoL

    What is really strange is this HBD tendency to act as if and try so hard to prove tiny diaspora/immigrant populations are perfectly representative of their home countries, including the mass of people in China, to the most third world, inland province. And especially that bizarre claim from the paper Jayman cited, and your delusions of sky-high chinese IQ.
     
    Panda has never claimed (but your CNN gangstas do) that Han Chinese diaspora/immigrant populations are the representative of avg IQ of China. Panda welcomes the day when the true and widespread IQ studies are able to be conducted and published in ALL parts of China, both poor inland and poor coastal areas.

    Panda's "delusion" of super high Han Chinese IQ is backed by arguablelly the single strongest mother evidence in the human evolutionary history: China's land mass ---

    --- the biggest, the juiciest, temperaturally the most confortable, and agriculturally the most productive, 4-season, all-climate landmass in the entire Eurasia (while Anglo-Saxens' extremely invasive culture and their Industry Revolution lottery ticket in the last 200 years got them the new continent of America that is comparable)!

    Panda's "delusion" is that in the full course of history, the highest IQ people/tribes end up with the biggest and the best land mass for the longest time span - ensuring the survival of the strongest, always!

    What's your otherwise low IQ delusion btw? ROFL

    --------------

    To sum up, generally Panda is open to discuss any topic. But 2 things about the Han Chinese are unquestionablely peerless throughout history( you take as given all right?) hence are not open for any serious discussion:

    1. avg test scores. Fuck yeah! ROFL

    2. Chinese cuisines ( the real ones, both fine dining and for the masses) French? What French? LMAO

    In that entire rambling, narcissistic rant, you didn’t bother cite to a single thing, especially what the jealous laowai beast Loveless censored. And yes, you can make a great many things up about academic performace, especially when it’s about one of the most corrupt countries on the planet.

    Andreas Schleicer also claims that because the PISA 2012 Technical Background Annex claims theres “no cheating, whatsoever, involved”. That’s an incredible claim for any test, or that general cheating/cramming/rote memorization can’t carry over to a great many tests, and Azerbaijan, a country that’s generally done very poorly, also got caught cheating in 2009 on the PISA- but just 3 years later, in a country that’s synonymous with corruption, that never happened.

    Yes, no chinese takes PISA seriously, but they still manage to do incredibly, and if they did, they’d be on an entirely different dimension compared to the other subhumans. You do atleast admit the “competitions for grades in chinese school are from another universe”, which is a bad thing and would make things like cheating to a sizable degree a sensible option, but you keep telling me this doesn’t really matter.

    You also saw “many” comments on chinese blogs about people complaining that the questions were too easy- great evidence. You might think, among other things, these weren’t representative, but again, there’s that laowai underestimation of chinese supergenius. And man, given that student spent in China is 1/20 that of the highest ranking OECD countries, maybe that average IQ of 130 on the part of China would really shine. How can us retarded, subhuman laoiwai even continue to argue?

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    I guess it wasn’t apparent enough that when I talk about cheating, I am mainly talkg about mainland chinese. Given that Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan are just about every basic way much better places than mainland china- cleaner, safer, vastly less corrupt etc. etc.- I wouldn’t be surprised if cheating was far less of an issue in those places, nevermind how Hong Kong and Singapore are both city-states, the latter of which has very high immigration standards, promotes highly educated couples to have more children etc. Also, they make up a tiny fraction of the global chinese population.

    I also like the dig at the “relatively low IQ Korea and Japan”- they’re the same race as you, but like a good east asian racist, you can’t help but make a dig at those pathetic japs and gooks.

    And yes, cheating is a pretty big issue in South Korea too. I don’t know about Japan, but probably much less.
    Yeah, yeah it does mind. You’re actually, honest to god claiming that China is undoubtedly corrupt in every single conceivable fashion, EXCEPT for education, that breathtaking corruption and anomie and disregard of others in basically every facet of life is undeniable in modern China, but when it comes to
    And I won’t deny China would be vastly better off if not for those things- in fact, they could potentially be the leading superpower. But the roots of China’s dysfunction are deep, and go back up to a few centuries (and in ways even further), and while much of it could be layed at what it’s suffered in the last century, China has a long way to go before it ever frees itself of it’s pathologies.

    You admit just a “tiny percentage” of chinese students cheat, (and I never claimed the average chinese student cheats, you deranged retard, but I wouldn’t be surprised if in some parts of China, it’s close to universal) and once again mock the CNN articles , as more jealousy from white subhumans (that have been “repeatedly broadcasted for ages”- I thought all of the claims of chinese students came out only in the past few years and were all thanks to that Dastardly laowai Loveless?), even though many of the articles I’ve cited are about INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS, and on tests UNRELATED TO THE PISA. Which you have yet to address, and just wave off as more propaganda.

    Of course people in the West cheat- people everywhere do. Just not as much as in mainland China, which goes with the fact the was is by and large a far better place than modern mainland China.

    Then you go into some bizarre, megalomaniacal, supremacist rant about how white subhumans have to be told how to behave by kings, which the Chinese are, who all have intrinsic, unshakeable racial pride, intellect etc., that “slaves” like Loveless (there is no doubt you have a personal grudge against him), and even a dirt-poor Chinese peasant living in the countryside has always behaved far better (even now!) than natural slave whites.

    So uh, I thought you didn’t deny that China is a horribly corrupt country now, and that the modern mainland chinese are very dysfunctional (except when it comes to education?) Or did you just see a great opportunity for a psychotic, racist rant?

    I was really debating whether I should continue debating with Panda, but after this, I think I’m done. I’m curious to see what Jayman will say about this maniac and how far off he is from China’s average IQ/prowess. Jayman seems to believe China’s modern dysfunction is pretty much genetic though, so that could be interesting- an HBDer who takes seriously claims of poor, impoverished, diseased chinese students outscoring swiss ones, and a psychotic chinese supremacist.

    Still, Panda doesn’t really strike me as a good example of chinese intellect. He has the beligerence, crassness, disregard of etiquitte, narcissism etc. that modern mainland chinese have gotten a reputation for (but variously sees this as a good thing), but he just doesn’t come off as that bright. Things like the poor grammar, bizarre writing style, inability to accept new ideas and more don’t give the best impression off a race of polymaths.

    As a few more things with Panda, you’ve been repeatedly claiming all chinese average very high IQ’s. I’m not sure how it’s far off to get from you that diaspora chinese are represenative (or is this something about inland chinese being the smarest?), and CNN (you have a grudge against them too clearly) claimed they’re represenative. Unless you think the CNN articles all claimed they’re all of mediocre/low IQ and only seem smart because of cheating, cramming etc.

    If you really want to see something like that, check out this post, from someone who ultimately alludes to east asians having significantly lower IQ’s than whites (which is crazy, but you might find it interesting): http://mpcdot.com/forums/topic/4163-plagiarized-effortpost-on-studyasians/#entry182899

    And really, what do you think the average chinese IQ really is? It’s clearly not 100 or even the unbelievable 105-108 that HBDers often trot out. Is it 115? 120? 130? 150? 200? Beyond what any IQ test can measure?

    Finally, your reason for why the chinese have always been supergeniuses is because they’ve always had the most fertile landmass. Not that this made them smarter, that it introduced conditions that would allow them to enrich themselves, but the very fact they had this to begin with is why they were smarter.
    So chinese supergenius dates even before then? Damn, those ice age climates must have been more demanding than the biggest HBD weirdo ever fathomed! (But I doubt you’d accept siberians and inuits as being smarter than the chinese). And you’d then have to ask about things like the fact the Chinese are in reality a large amalgamation of ethnic groups with mixing dating back millenia, with large amounts of gene flow from southeast asia and elsewhere, that places with large amounts of Chinese admixture (much of southeast asia, including the Philippines) are in general ways even more backwards and unproductive than mainland China etc. But who knows- it could just be be beyond the comprehension of us laowai, simple as that.

    Oh, and european achievement extends well before the settling of the US. Like all the way to ancient Greece. And even in more ancient times, you could look to the renaissance a few centuries before and really throughout the middle ages. And how the US broke off from Britain. And the fact the industrial revolution began in Britain. And that american colonialism was in major ways never that beneficial to European powers. And that places like Germany, even in the modern era, produced immense scientific, cultural etc. achievements even though their colonial empire has been marginal. And that large parts of the US weren’t even settled in substantial numbers until quite recently. And the US’ achievements have generally been from a few areas. And that European achivement is disproportionately due to a relatively few number of countries.

    For all your trump up the Chinese being ahead because of their territory, don’t you think it’s kind of strange how for all of it’s territory, it’s historically large populations and long history and organization and such, the Chinese have been proportionately underperforming? They’ve been ahead at various points, but when you look at not just Europe, but many other civilizations that have produced remarkable accomplishments, have had generally much smaller populations. And no, I’m really not partial to the ideas of east asians being so uncreative, ultra-conformist, devoid of individuality etc., but if you want to go to this length, I don’t think China’s historical accomplishment is as impressive in face of it’s population size and more.

    Just curious, but what do you think of Charles Murray’s “Human Accomplishment?” I think many people misconstrue his work, because it’s clearly about just a relatively small number of European countries, who didn’t begin to really shine until the past several centuries (though Jayman couldn’t help weaseling how northwest europe stacks up in this post) among other things, but I don’t think his figures are that far off from reality.

    Oh, and India is a very fertile, comfortable country too- they have a similar population to China, and historically have been highly achieving too. But they’re even worse off, and are probably of lower IQ than China, among other things.

    And finally, I love the dig about the “Anglon-Saxon’s extremely invasive culture”- because China has never had imperial ambitions, in the past (like Vietnam and much of southeast asia) or even now, or exporting their culture to surrounding regions, or that such a thing is so alien to any nationalist/supremacist maniac. On top of shameless racial supremacy, you couldn’t help throw in some time-worn white guilt.

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    So you try to overwhelm Panda with a sea of gibberish using your much less valuable evening hours? ROFL. Now Panda gived you a sea of wisdom! LOL

    Panda coming back to you in length is in the spirit to take the opportunity reaching wider audiences using your common MSM low IQ hit piece taking points, apart from giving you a competitive and free education in this area- please don't take it personally, Panda has no intention at all to disrespect you as a person, but just being too polite to miss this chance to greatly enhance your knowledge and intellectual enlightenment. Saluting Panda for the very precious time & effort input or not is not important though:

    In that entire rambling, narcissistic rant, you didn’t bother cite to a single thing, especially what the jealous laowai beast Loveless censored. And yes, you can make a great many things up about academic performace, especially when it’s about one of the most corrupt countries on the planet.
     
    That's not true. Panda cited Panda a lot. Most of the CNN-cartel "journalist" trolls you cited could not intellectually count up to 20 without taking off their socks while in schools - and many still can't, while being busying at regurgitating their politically-oriented editorial lines in the desperate hope to keep their pathetically low-paying jobs to foot their monthly household bills. Morally and intellectually speaking most of them are not fit to hold the suitcase of Panda's secretary, to be honest. For your own good, next time you want to cite sth shining, go ahead citing Panda.

    On test scores , China never cheats - 1 of 2 Panda points that is closed for discussion. Zhejiang's scores were communicated to them by OECD. All the scores of 12 provinces of China currently sit at archive of OECD PISA in Paris, albeit not being publicly released yet. So you are running a full risk of being ridiculed by your own ridiculous accusation. LoL

    Andreas Schleicer also claims that because the PISA 2012 Technical Background Annex claims theres “no cheating, whatsoever, involved”. That’s an incredible claim for any test, or that general cheating/cramming/rote memorization can’t carry over to a great many tests, and Azerbaijan, a country that’s generally done very poorly, also got caught cheating in 2009 on the PISA- but just 3 years later, in a country that’s synonymous with corruption, that never happened.

     

    Panda trusts Andreas´s claim way more than you (and Loveless as well for that matter) as he and his armies of OECD PISA colleagues have all the factual test backups in their drawers, you not, sorry pal.

    Yes, no chinese takes PISA seriously, but they still manage to do incredibly, and if they did, they’d be on an entirely different dimension compared to the other subhumans.

    Yes, Panda doesn’t take breakfast seriously, but Panda still manage to eat an incredible full course of it every morning. And George Clooney doesn’t take ladies seriously, but darn it, he still manages to have a lot at flip of fingers. What’s your friggin point? ROFL

    And pls, stop having so much inferiority complex keep addressing yourself `subman`. Panda has not called you so. You do it to yourself.

    You do atleast admit the “competitions for grades in chinese school are from another universe”, which is a bad thing and would make things like cheating to a sizable degree a sensible option, but you keep telling me this doesn’t really matter.
     
    Panda tells you again: it doesn´t matter. No matter what and when, cheating is inside ALL human societies and all walks of life. But % are small which doesn´t affect the average (hello, kitty?!) too much. On top of that, in any very competitive environment, more often than not the top guys have more incentive to cheat than less smart guys, rather than the other way around, for a natural reason of getting further ahead. So the cheating itself is not a sufficient proof, as it happens often, that the cheating guy is not relatively more capable than others even without cheating. Such examples have been abundant in all walks of life since eons :

    president-to-be Obama had much stronger incentives to cheat, as he did, on his uni grades than a small time county chief-to-be...

    billionaire Donald Trump has - had much stronger incentives to cheat, as he did/is doing, on his tax issues, moral issues etc. than an average salaried construction worker...

    Wall Street-City of London top bankers elite traders have much stronger incentives to cheat, as they did/are doing, on libor rate fixings, rating mythologies, economy outlook etc a shit load of youknowhat than a high-school dropout bank cashier at the front desk...

    Multiple true championship holders like Marion Jones, Justin Gatlin, Ben Johnson etc had much stronger incentives to cheat, as they did, than a mediocre runner such as Panda who can not even reach the school sport meeting final, let alone on the world stage...

    etc etc use your imagination...

    However, their cheating itself is not a sufficient accusation evidence that those guys are intellectually -professionally less capable than their counterparts in their corresponding fields, as you, and your low IQ CNN cartel hit campaign gangs, insinuate to be all the time. Is that clear enough, chief?


    And man, given that student spent in China is 1/20 that of the highest ranking OECD countries, maybe that average IQ of 130 on the part of China would really shine. How can us retarded, subhuman laoiwai even continue to argue?
     
    Panda didn´t claim 130, you did.


    And again, rid off your inferiority complex and stop calling yourself `subhuman`.

    I guess it wasn’t apparent enough that when I talk about cheating, I am mainly talkg about mainland chinese. Given that Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan are just about every basic way much better places than mainland china- cleaner, safer, vastly less corrupt etc. etc.- I wouldn’t be surprised if cheating was far less of an issue in those places, nevermind how Hong Kong and Singapore are both city-states, the latter of which has very high immigration standards, promotes highly educated couples to have more children etc. Also, they make up a tiny fraction of the global chinese population.
     
    So you think Singapore HK and Taiwan represent the best crop of the Han Chinese? LMAO! it is not even funny.

    None of them can even reach 80 percentile in the national ranking by provinces (and most of them themselves know it if being honest) if take Chinas annual Gaokao exam - the worlds most competitive one . If go against all Han Chinese-majority provinces, Panda doubt any of them could reach 70 or even 60 percentile, most likely the average instead. More than half of poor provinces would eat them alive for breakfast on maths and sciences --- Go ask any Chinese student, any, in wherever corner of the world you are from.


    I also like the dig at the “relatively low IQ Korea and Japan”- they’re the same race as you, but like a good east asian racist, you can’t help but make a dig at those pathetic japs and gooks.
     
    Oh you do? Or you don’t have a faintest clue at all? LMAO

    The same race doesn’t not necessarily means the same. French, Italians, Irish, Serbians, Germans and Greeks etc are of the same race as well, but are they interchangeable?

    Nothing personal and national, the best analogy Panda can come up with is that:

    If the current EU (including the UK) kept united for the next 2,000 years, then that EU would be China, Denmark would be Korea, and Iceland or Ireland would be Japan.

    Intellectually, culturally, economically, technologically, racially, it has been more or less like that throughout the history.



    .

    And yes, cheating is a pretty big issue in South Korea too. I don’t know about Japan, but probably much less.
    Yeah, yeah it does mind. You’re actually, honest to god claiming that China is undoubtedly corrupt in every single conceivable fashion, EXCEPT for education, that breathtaking corruption and anomie and disregard of others in basically every facet of life is undeniable in modern China, but when it comes to
    And I won’t deny China would be vastly better off if not for those things- in fact, they could potentially be the leading superpower. But the roots of China’s dysfunction are deep, and go back up to a few centuries (and in ways even further), and while much of it could be layed at what it’s suffered in the last century, China has a long way to go before it ever frees itself of it’s pathologies. .
     
    Correct to a large extend, which makes Panda see a dim light at the end of the tunnel that even some morons are redeemable. LOL

    Correct to a large extend, not for the reason you think you know.

    Western law-based and Confucius ideal-based societies each are a double-edged sword. The topic was debated extensively for hundreds of years 2,200 years ago in China. Each of them has its pros and cons, depending which angle or time frame one looks at. No one would have imagine law-based democratic egalitarian rich just and fair society of Sweden would become what it is today merely 20 years ago, imagine 50 years later or 200 years later…then how about France? Belgium? UK? US?... Wall Street, Capitol Hill, your beloved CNN, Hollywood and of course Hufflingtonpost have nothing to do with widespread deep-rooted lethal corruptions? Is that your otherwise low IQ delusion you’re too shy to share with Panda btw? ROFL


    .


    You admit just a “tiny percentage” of chinese students cheat, (and I never claimed the average chinese student cheats, you deranged retard, but I wouldn’t be surprised if in some parts of China, it’s close to universal) and once again mock the CNN articles , as more jealousy from white subhumans (that have been “repeatedly broadcasted for ages”- I thought all of the claims of chinese students came out only in the past few years and were all thanks to that Dastardly laowai Loveless?), even though many of the articles I’ve cited are about INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS, and on tests UNRELATED TO THE PISA. Which you have yet to address, and just wave off as more propaganda. .
     
    Which one? Unrelated to PISA, but nonetheless from your beloved hufflingtonpost?

    Yep, propanganda.

    Next?


    .



    Of course people in the West cheat- people everywhere do. Just not as much as in mainland China, which goes with the fact the was is by and large a far better place than modern mainland China. .
     
    But that is not the question, sunshine.

    The intellectual question is for how long?

    .

    Then you go into some bizarre, megalomaniacal, supremacist rant about how white subhumans have to be told how to behave by kings, which the Chinese are, who all have intrinsic, unshakeable racial pride, intellect etc., that “slaves” like Loveless (there is no doubt you have a personal grudge against him), and even a dirt-poor Chinese peasant living in the countryside has always behaved far better (even now!) than natural slave whites. .
     
    Panda sees that your reading comprehension has been kept below 90 IQ level by your inferiority complex.

    Let Panda help you further with what the analogy was about:

    The Chinese Civilisation has been the rule-setter on all spheres throughout history in the immediate worthy geo-area that we cared to cover. We don’t follow the manners and etiquettes set by your Queen, most of which essentially are as shallow as $$$-based, woops sorry!

    We follow Confucius manners and etiquettes where morality of culture is way more important than how much money you have. A Chinese peasant who makes a living on his portion of rice field may not have (and he won’t give a damn)your Queen’s manners and etiquettes, but his inner morality of culture is usually far more superior than many of you lot who just won a lottery ticket 200 years ago.

    But intellectually we are open. We Chinese take what we see as valuable ideas whenever we look around at outside world (there aren’t all idiots all the time out there, right? LOL), improve them, and implement them to improve ourselves, but resolutely keep our path as Chinese Civilisation with mentality of a king.

    King mentality: why I care about what you think about me? who the fuck are you?
    Slave mentality: look, that’s what all others are doing/saying, and CNN, and Huff…Hufflingtonpost…oh my lord! that’s what I must do/say, too.

    老當益壯,甯移白首之心? 窮且益堅,不墜青雲之志. (even though becoming old, stronger I will be. How can I change my mind because of my grey hair? Even though becoming poor due to today’s circumstances, more affirmed my will is, and my sky-high ambition will never be affected – Confucius Tang Poem)

    Comparing this “etiquette-less” dirt poor peasant to your random nouveau riche dressing like a fag flashing wallet to the waitresses at the Four Seasons afternoon tea session, who is the King now?

    Yeah, bow!


    .

    So uh, I thought you didn’t deny that China is a horribly corrupt country now, and that the modern mainland chinese are very dysfunctional (except when it comes to education?) Or did you just see a great opportunity for a psychotic, racist rant? .
     
    Panda thought that you’ve been told that 2 things are not for discussion: avg test scores and Chinese food. You have a short memory.

    “Modern Chinese are dysfunctional”? LMAO. Your stupidity has no lower bound. Say even at “dyfuncational” Chinese studs still beat the shit out of you in avg test scores. ROFL The only dyfunational about modern China is its dysfunctional political and economical “elites” supported to power by the borrowed Western (Soviets/Jewish) Communist fake ideals. The question you should ask yourself is even the modern Chinese at out lowest point in history, relatively speaking, we still are the most economically dynamic region on this blue planet.

    Unlike most others of our competitors who have free hands to do anything they want for friggin 100 years in a row, even we started running FAR later from the starting line, and still have got our hands and feet tied up by the unfair Western Communist crap, in the fierce all-out global competitions, we are still about to lead the world technologically and economically. That tells much about avg IQ, doesn’t it genius? Now you can have a pity on yourself. ROFL



    .

    I was really debating whether I should continue debating with Panda, but after this, I think I’m done. I’m curious to see what Jayman will say about this maniac and how far off he is from China’s average IQ/prowess. Jayman seems to believe China’s modern dysfunction is pretty much genetic though, so that could be interesting- an HBDer who takes seriously claims of poor, impoverished, diseased chinese students outscoring swiss ones, and a psychotic chinese supremacist. .
     
    Yes, slaves like you listen to what others have to say; Kings like Panda say what they think, regardless of what the others think. LMAO.

    And yes, poor, impoverished, diseased Chinese students on avg have been beating swiss ones with one eye closed since the first day Europe copied China’s universal exam system centuries ago.


    .

    Still, Panda doesn’t really strike me as a good example of chinese intellect. He has the beligerence, crassness, disregard of etiquitte, narcissism etc. that modern mainland chinese have gotten a reputation for (but variously sees this as a good thing), but he just doesn’t come off as that bright. Things like the poor grammar, bizarre writing style, inability to accept new ideas and more don’t give the best impression off a race of polymaths. .
     
    Thank you very much for the compliments! Considering the current evolving state of your frontal lobe, Panda feels truly flattered. ROFL

    .

    As a few more things with Panda, you’ve been repeatedly claiming .all chinese average .very high IQ’s. I’m not sure how it’s far off to get from you that diaspora chinese are represenative (or is this something about inland chinese being the smarest?), and CNN (you have a grudge against them too clearly) claimed they’re represenative. Unless you think the CNN articles all claimed they’re all of mediocre/low IQ and only seem smart because of cheating, cramming etc. .
     
    Dude, you do have an issue with the concept of “average”. Go take an evening course on it. LMAO

    For the rest part, Panda doesn’t know what you’re gibberishing about…So your moral compass and intellectual hero CNN says blah blah again? Who the fuck is CNN? LOL

    .

    If you really want to see something like that, check out this post, from someone who ultimately alludes to east asians having significantly lower IQ’s than whites (which is crazy, but you might find it interesting):http://mpcdot.com/forums/topic/4163-plagiarized-effortpost-on-studyasians/#entry182899 .
     
    Examination result: that blog runner is a retard, intellectually not fit enough to clean Panda’s pows.

    .

    And really, what do you think the average chinese IQ really is? It’s clearly not 100 or even the unbelievable 105-108 that HBDers often trot out. Is it 115? 120? 130? 150? 200? Beyond what any IQ test can measure? .
     
    There is no “average”Chinese, just like there is no “average”American, get it?

    Panda´s best educated guess is that there are about 100 mio to 200 mio certain sub tribes of Han Chinese who currently have avg IQ slightly more than 110. With some Flynn effect (i.e. about equivalent to reach the OECD nutrition, general health care, and income level) they have potential to reach more than 115 to even somewhere high teens.

    The vast majority of the rest Han Chinese however, could be anywhere between about 105 (current ) to slightly above 108 (with Flynn) – slightly above the current HK (108) level.

    Most highly Hannised minorities could have about 100. The Muslim Hui Chinese about low-mid 90s. Turkic Muslims in the Western region low-mid 80s, Tibetens probably even lower.


    .

    Finally, your reason for why the chinese have always been supergeniuses is because they’ve always had the most fertile landmass. Not that this made them smarter, that it introduced conditions that would allow them to enrich themselves, but the very fact they had this to begin with is why they were smarter. . So chinese supergenius dates even before then? Damn, those ice age climates must have been more demanding than the biggest HBD weirdo ever fathomed! (But I doubt you’d accept siberians and inuits as being smarter than the chinese).
     
    Most likely both: smarter to start with to get the land; which (i.e. develope the land, keep the land from foreign hands, “snowball effect’ out of long-lasting peace and prosperity in the course of millennia etc.) also has benefited the people to become even smarter. Conquering the land is one thing, developing the land and keeping the land over a long history are many other things on top of it.


    .

    And you’d then have to ask about things like the fact the Chinese are in reality a large amalgamation of ethnic groups with mixing dating back millenia, with large amounts of gene flow from.southeast asia and elsewhere, that places with large amounts of Chinese admixture (much of southeast asia, including the Philippines) are in general ways even more backwards and unproductive than mainland China etc. But who knows- it could just be be beyond the comprehension of us laowai, simple as that. .
     
    Mostly “To” southeast asia, not “from”, because the simple logic that the strongest expand in the course of history, pushing outwards to others in general instead of the other way around. Philippines is about the country with the least % of Han blood in Southeast Asia, about 1%? – which included Amy Chua.

    .

    For all your trump up the Chinese being ahead because of their territory, don’t you think it’s kind of strange how for all of it’s territory, it’s historically large populations and long history and organization and such, the Chinese have been proportionately underperforming? They’ve been ahead at various points, but when you look at not just Europe, but many other civilizations that have produced remarkable accomplishments, have had generally much smaller populations. And no, I’m really not partial to the ideas of east asians being so uncreative, ultra-conformist, devoid of individuality etc., but if you want to go to this length, I don’t think China’s historical accomplishment is as impressive in face of it’s population size and more.
     
    A combi of many reasons for that, as it is logically expected. One of the major and simplest reasons is that disproportionably larger portion of the population of a larger country with large population can afford more luxury of layback lifestyle most of the time vís-a-vís a closely comparable yet much smaller population of a much smaller country – it is human nature that when you are rich and big, you will gradually become lazier, then decadent, then until the day you collapse, then the cycle starts all over again… Tiny countries such as Luxemburg, Switzerland, Netherlands or Belgium on per cap basis beat Germany and the US most of the time, so what? Guess what, the world’s most innovative country on per cap innovation basis is probably tiny Taiwan – far more than Japan or Germany or South Korea, whereas the 99% of the common people in the street would guess it probably would be the latter.

    .

    Just curious, but what do you think of Charles Murray’s “Human Accomplishment?” I think many people misconstrue his work, because it’s clearly about just a relatively small number of European countries, who didn’t begin to really shine until the past several centuries (though Jayman couldn’t help weaseling how northwest europe stacks up in this post) among other things, but I don’t think his figures are that far off from reality. .
     
    Long story short, generally sounds oke, but Panda thinks that Murray’s intellectual dishonesty on comparing fundamentally un-quantifiable achievements of entirely different nature and sorts from entirely different historical backgrounds and time frames causes him to make some wrong conclusions.

    .

    Oh, and India is a very fertile, comfortable country too- they have a similar population to China, and historically have been highly achieving too. But they’re even worse off, and are probably of lower IQ than China, among other things. .
     
    India is comfortable? ROFL. C’mon now. It took han Chinese probably 1,000 years to get used to the climate of Canton which is far better than hot steaming, mosquito-tropical disease thrived India. India’s current large population size, alongwith Sub Sahara Africa’s, is the legacy of post WW2 peaceful United Nation Charters which don’t allows foreign invasions and grant endless food aids, economical handouts, and free medicines from UN agencies together with countless NGOs. It won’t be able to sustain them, both India and Africa, in the longer course of natural evolutionary history.

    .

    And finally, I love the dig about the “Anglon-Saxon’s extremely invasive culture”- because China has never had imperial ambitions, in the past (like Vietnam and much of southeast asia) or even now, or exporting their culture to surrounding regions, or that such a thing is so alien to any nationalist/supremacist maniac. On top of shameless racial supremacy, you couldn’t help throw in some time-worn white guilt. .
     
    Glad that you like it, since it’s true. A tribe originated in Germany/England end up colonising half of the world 8,000 miles away can be described nothing short of “extremely invasive”, China is different – how many km is China from Korea or Japan or Northern Vietnam?

    And No, it is not shameless to tell that the blue is superiorly more blueish than the green, as it is objectively true. It’s nothing shameful to tell the truth. Yet it only becomes shameless when the blue have a clear contempt towards the green or even argue to eliminate it, to which Panda has never been even remotely close.
    , @JayMan
    That's enough you two. Further comments on the back and forth between the two of you will be deleted.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • matt says:
    @JayMan
    Strictly speaking, the borders of Morocco and that of the Ghana empire did overlap:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almoravid_dynasty

    You’re really reaching here. The claim that “This Is Our Home” made was the following:

    the Empire of Ghana was located in modern day Morocco.

    (emphasis added)

    He didn’t say that it butted up against the Almoravids. He said it was in modern day Morocco, and that’s about as wrong as saying that it was in modern-day Ghana.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @matt

    Fair enough, I made a pretty big mistake.
     
    Indeed. I suggest you quit while you're behind.

    Nonetheless, it was still located in where Mauritania and Mali are, and having been to Mauritania, I can safely say that it is a world apart from West African modern-day Ghana
     
    Southeastern Mauritania, and central and southern Mali. Anyway, Advinesta never claimed or implied that the Empire of Ghana was identical to the modern state of Ghana; all he did was argue that it is an error to attribute all of the achievements of the Empire to Caucasian ethnic groups.

    If anyone has mistaken the Ghana Empire for something else, you did when you put it in modern-day Morocco (which, again: lol).

    Strictly speaking, the borders of Morocco and that of the Ghana empire did overlap:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almoravid_dynasty

    Read More
    • Replies: @matt
    You're really reaching here. The claim that "This Is Our Home" made was the following:

    the Empire of Ghana was located in modern day Morocco.
     
    (emphasis added)

    He didn't say that it butted up against the Almoravids. He said it was in modern day Morocco, and that's about as wrong as saying that it was in modern-day Ghana.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.