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    "Pope Declares No Hell?" So ran the riveting headline on the Drudge Report of Holy Thursday. Drudge quoted this exchange, published in La Repubblica, between Pope Francis and his atheist friend, journalist Eugenio Scalfari. Scalfari: "What about bad souls? Where are they punished?" Bad souls "are not punished," Pope Francis is quoted, "those who do...
  • Some clean up here:

    If Christ acknowledges a hell — I am loathe to dispute him.

    But the breadth, depth and scope of music that encourages us to praise, worship and fellowship with Christ and the Father through and with the Holy Spirit and each other —- is only limited by our humanness.

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  • If Christ acknowledges a hell — I am loathe to dispute.

    But the wide breadth, depth and scope of music that encourages us to praise, worship and fellowship Christ and the Father through the Holy Spirit —- is only limited by our humanness.

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  • @EliteCommInc.
    To wit:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWndDW_271g


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCFCeJTEzNU

    or

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUvZHuM6mmw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBwh1OXw6uI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy59T8vYSP0

    The chanting is absolutely beautiful, I’ve long been a fan.

    The chanting of the Orthodox Arab Christians is also very beautiful:

    Maybe I’m partial to it because it reminds me of the chanting/dhikr in my own tradition so much. :)

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  • @Bliss

    I have no problems with Westerners using Western terms. Muslims don’t care about non-Muslim terms; never have, never will. Why does it upset you that we use our terms
     
    So now, unable to defend himself in the language of the forum, the fraud is demanding that the debate be conducted in Arabic terms. He has begun pretending there is no such thing as translation. Idiot.

    Those are accomplishments of Islamic or Muslim civilization.
     
    I don’t see african or filipino christians thumping their chests over the achievements of european christians. So why is it that indian and pakistani muslims like you are always trying to boast of the achievements of arabs, persians, turks as if they were your own? It is especially obscene to see you doing that since you constantly try to suck up to alt-right racists with the “we wuz kaangs” meme.

    It is very stupid of you to think that conservatives/right-wingers are on your side, seeing how it’s the conservatives of your religion who are the worst enemies of Sufis. Your tariqah may be conservative compared to others but no Sufi tariqah will ever be anywhere close to being as conservative as the salafis.


    Answer the three questions
     
    None of your questions has anything to do with the issue. It is just an attempt to avoid answering the relevant questions that were asked of you but left unanswered.

    1. If “all tariqahs, save one, trace their their chain” to Ali, why should you join one when Mohammad is the Last Messenger of Allah, not Ali? How do you reconcile the finality of Islam with the innovations of Sufi Tariqahs?

    2. What is the Hadith that promises hundreds of thousands of virgins in Paradise, as you claimed?

    3. If “true reality” is spiritual why does it have to be attached to the body for all eternity (the ultimate stage) in heaven or hell?

    the debate

    There is no debate, I conceded your right to define terms as you wish according to how you feel. You have thus far been unable to come up with a reason why Muslims should care. There can be no debate when two sides cannot agree on baseline principle definitions.

    I’m merely answering your questions in order to show everyone else here:
    1) this is how they lost to Left-liberals in the West, by allowing them to frame the debate and control the definitions – we will not make that mistake
    2) most of which Left-liberals claim about Islam should be given any weight because they are wholly ignorant of the tradition other than some vacuous idea they have come up with

    He has begun pretending there is no such thing as translation

    Translation and definition is usually OK. In fact, I cited one such definition by the Islamic Studies Dept. at Oxford which gives a very wide and comprehensive definition of the term “Sufism”:

    http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/print/opr/t236/e0759

    One that I can easily work with. You’re the one that responded by the profoundly intellectual statement “You are a fake Sufi” and proceeded to support that with your definition of Sufism based on your feelz.

    And this is fine, since Western discourse seems to be unable to keep terms like “marriage” and “gender” from being infected by “muh feelz” discourse, I doubt “Sufism” can remain academically defined either. In which, case, we’ll let you have the term and it won’t change a single thing as we retreat to using our indigenous ones.

    I don’t see african or filipino christians thumping their chests over the achievements of european christians.

    Ask them why they don’t consider themselves part of wider Christendom or Christian civilization. Christians never had something that paralleled the concept of the Ummah to the degree we had – especially after the Great Schism.

    as if they were your own?

    They aren’t ours – they are the inheritance of the Ummah. I’ve always given Persians and Arabs their due – we are indebted to their efforts and they deserve our prayers:
    “…all that we identify with classical, orthodox Islam in both its Sunni and Shi’i aspects would be unimaginable in its existing historical form without extensive efforts of Persians scholars, who worked along with Arab scholars in creating that vast world of Islamic learning to which other peoples also became subsequent heirs and contributors. For this reason, the role of Persia in the elaboration of Islamic civilization and the Islamic sciences has remained central throughout history.”
    The Cambridge History of Iran, Volume 4

    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/who-is-the-real-enemy/?highlight=debt+persians#comment-1933223

    It is very stupid of you to think that conservatives/right-wingers are on your side

    They aren’t – yet I have had very civil and even friendly discussions with people who would love for me to leave the country tomorrow. This interaction shows me that, whatever the failings of the alt-right, the Liberal-Left is far more dangerous once they drop their “inclusive” veneer.

    as conservative as the salafis

    That’s never been the goal – “conservative” along with “liberal” or “progressive” are Western terms that change definitions. We don’t fit neatly into any category. “Conservatives” of 150 years ago would have said it is a good thing for women to cover their hair outside, now they cheer on women taking off the hijab in the streets of Iran. We don’t care for these labels – they are silly.

    None of your questions has anything to do with the issue.

    Of course it does. It gives insights into your behavior; the insults, the assumption that people will let you define their terms, etc. This is the mark of a personality that is not used to being told “no” or someone who isn’t told their uninvited (and unqualified) opinion doesn’t count for anything.

    “all tariqahs, save one, trace their their chain” to Ali

    Not what I said, I said “through whom” – every tariqah traces itself back to the Prophet (pbuh) through either Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra) or Abu Bakr (ra). Again, the fact that you did not know this speaks volumes about your lack of basic knowledge on something you are so opinionated.

    How do you reconcile the finality of Islam with the innovations of Sufi Tariqahs?

    Like we do with all innovations (bid’ah) which are classified into “praiseworthy innovation” or “blameworthy/offensive innovation” by scholars who have the requisite knowledge to make that call:

    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa-birmingham/19440

    What is the Hadith

    Imam Ghazali (ra) cites it in his magnum opus – the Ihya Uloom ud-Deen – which is sitting on by bookshelf in Arabic. I’m not here to play fetch for you. You found a translation for Hidayah, find an online translation for the Ihya. If you don’t care to believe me, I couldn’t care less. You’ve already called me liar multiple times so go ahead, do it again – I dare you. LOL!

    why does it have to

    Already answered that one – “has to” has nothing to do with it. God decides the parameters of the Afterlife – if He decided to reveal that it would be given some sort of physical manifestation, then that’s how it is. If you don’t like it, complain to God when you meet Him.

    Now answer the 3 questions otherwise this is the last time I respond to you.

    As I said, I’ve been humoring you to make a point to others. I don’t feel like exhausting the topic further since everyone can make their judgement based on what’s been discussed.

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  • Whatever the churches failings, it is doubtful that it’s worship has cause for people to abandon the faith.

    Though, I have a hard time with christian hard rock, rock and Punk is beyond me —I leave room for Christ to visit people in places I cannot or will not go. His work will not return unto void.

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  • To wit:

    or

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    • Replies: @Talha
    The chanting is absolutely beautiful, I've long been a fan.

    The chanting of the Orthodox Arab Christians is also very beautiful:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7w60CMUovU

    Maybe I'm partial to it because it reminds me of the chanting/dhikr in my own tradition so much. :)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    I have no problems with Westerners using Western terms. Muslims don’t care about non-Muslim terms; never have, never will. Why does it upset you that we use our terms and refuse to let you define us? You are the first person to complain about my use of Arabic terms, why is that.

    GTFO
     
    Make me. This isn’t “your” country or “your” forum unless your name is Ron Unz.

    As if South Asian converts to Islam had anything to do with that.
     
    They didn’t; Islam is not an ethnic identity. Those are accomplishments of Islamic or Muslim civilization.

    Now you are shooting all over the place hoping to hit something.

    orthodox muslims (Salafis)
     
    Beat that dead horse.

    Answer the three questions - you are:
    1) an only child, correct?
    2) not married, correct?
    3) left liberal, correct?

    I have no problems with Westerners using Western terms. Muslims don’t care about non-Muslim terms; never have, never will. Why does it upset you that we use our terms

    So now, unable to defend himself in the language of the forum, the fraud is demanding that the debate be conducted in Arabic terms. He has begun pretending there is no such thing as translation. Idiot.

    Those are accomplishments of Islamic or Muslim civilization.

    I don’t see african or filipino christians thumping their chests over the achievements of european christians. So why is it that indian and pakistani muslims like you are always trying to boast of the achievements of arabs, persians, turks as if they were your own? It is especially obscene to see you doing that since you constantly try to suck up to alt-right racists with the “we wuz kaangs” meme.

    It is very stupid of you to think that conservatives/right-wingers are on your side, seeing how it’s the conservatives of your religion who are the worst enemies of Sufis. Your tariqah may be conservative compared to others but no Sufi tariqah will ever be anywhere close to being as conservative as the salafis.

    Answer the three questions

    None of your questions has anything to do with the issue. It is just an attempt to avoid answering the relevant questions that were asked of you but left unanswered.

    1. If “all tariqahs, save one, trace their their chain” to Ali, why should you join one when Mohammad is the Last Messenger of Allah, not Ali? How do you reconcile the finality of Islam with the innovations of Sufi Tariqahs?

    2. What is the Hadith that promises hundreds of thousands of virgins in Paradise, as you claimed?

    3. If “true reality” is spiritual why does it have to be attached to the body for all eternity (the ultimate stage) in heaven or hell?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    the debate
     
    There is no debate, I conceded your right to define terms as you wish according to how you feel. You have thus far been unable to come up with a reason why Muslims should care. There can be no debate when two sides cannot agree on baseline principle definitions.

    I'm merely answering your questions in order to show everyone else here:
    1) this is how they lost to Left-liberals in the West, by allowing them to frame the debate and control the definitions - we will not make that mistake
    2) most of which Left-liberals claim about Islam should be given any weight because they are wholly ignorant of the tradition other than some vacuous idea they have come up with

    He has begun pretending there is no such thing as translation
     
    Translation and definition is usually OK. In fact, I cited one such definition by the Islamic Studies Dept. at Oxford which gives a very wide and comprehensive definition of the term "Sufism":
    http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/print/opr/t236/e0759

    One that I can easily work with. You're the one that responded by the profoundly intellectual statement "You are a fake Sufi" and proceeded to support that with your definition of Sufism based on your feelz.

    And this is fine, since Western discourse seems to be unable to keep terms like "marriage" and "gender" from being infected by "muh feelz" discourse, I doubt "Sufism" can remain academically defined either. In which, case, we'll let you have the term and it won't change a single thing as we retreat to using our indigenous ones.

    I don’t see african or filipino christians thumping their chests over the achievements of european christians.
     
    Ask them why they don't consider themselves part of wider Christendom or Christian civilization. Christians never had something that paralleled the concept of the Ummah to the degree we had - especially after the Great Schism.

    as if they were your own?
     
    They aren't ours - they are the inheritance of the Ummah. I've always given Persians and Arabs their due - we are indebted to their efforts and they deserve our prayers:
    "...all that we identify with classical, orthodox Islam in both its Sunni and Shi’i aspects would be unimaginable in its existing historical form without extensive efforts of Persians scholars, who worked along with Arab scholars in creating that vast world of Islamic learning to which other peoples also became subsequent heirs and contributors. For this reason, the role of Persia in the elaboration of Islamic civilization and the Islamic sciences has remained central throughout history.”
    The Cambridge History of Iran, Volume 4
    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/who-is-the-real-enemy/?highlight=debt+persians#comment-1933223

    It is very stupid of you to think that conservatives/right-wingers are on your side
     
    They aren't - yet I have had very civil and even friendly discussions with people who would love for me to leave the country tomorrow. This interaction shows me that, whatever the failings of the alt-right, the Liberal-Left is far more dangerous once they drop their "inclusive" veneer.

    as conservative as the salafis
     
    That's never been the goal - "conservative" along with "liberal" or "progressive" are Western terms that change definitions. We don't fit neatly into any category. "Conservatives" of 150 years ago would have said it is a good thing for women to cover their hair outside, now they cheer on women taking off the hijab in the streets of Iran. We don't care for these labels - they are silly.

    None of your questions has anything to do with the issue.
     
    Of course it does. It gives insights into your behavior; the insults, the assumption that people will let you define their terms, etc. This is the mark of a personality that is not used to being told "no" or someone who isn't told their uninvited (and unqualified) opinion doesn't count for anything.

    “all tariqahs, save one, trace their their chain” to Ali
     
    Not what I said, I said "through whom" - every tariqah traces itself back to the Prophet (pbuh) through either Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra) or Abu Bakr (ra). Again, the fact that you did not know this speaks volumes about your lack of basic knowledge on something you are so opinionated.

    How do you reconcile the finality of Islam with the innovations of Sufi Tariqahs?
     
    Like we do with all innovations (bid'ah) which are classified into "praiseworthy innovation" or "blameworthy/offensive innovation" by scholars who have the requisite knowledge to make that call:
    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa-birmingham/19440

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vmWLGGXiIY

    What is the Hadith
     
    Imam Ghazali (ra) cites it in his magnum opus - the Ihya Uloom ud-Deen - which is sitting on by bookshelf in Arabic. I'm not here to play fetch for you. You found a translation for Hidayah, find an online translation for the Ihya. If you don't care to believe me, I couldn't care less. You've already called me liar multiple times so go ahead, do it again - I dare you. LOL!

    why does it have to
     
    Already answered that one - "has to" has nothing to do with it. God decides the parameters of the Afterlife - if He decided to reveal that it would be given some sort of physical manifestation, then that's how it is. If you don't like it, complain to God when you meet Him.

    Now answer the 3 questions otherwise this is the last time I respond to you.

    As I said, I've been humoring you to make a point to others. I don't feel like exhausting the topic further since everyone can make their judgement based on what's been discussed.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @EliteCommInc.
    Ok . . .


    as someone who sang in all prep school male choir --- them's is fight'in words.

    LOL. Because I was just listening to John Michael Talbot and Terry Talbot this afternoon - now in fact.


    And I must say -- no way.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TEL_7TS5FE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmubzfmVkJo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcXkqc06vhs

    To which the only possible response is:

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  • @attilathehen
    You have to understand that the RCC survived for 2000 years because it started in the Caucasian Middle East and flowered in Europe. This is over. The majority of RCCers are now black/Asian. They will never produce the theology, culture created for the first 2000 years. The people who previously tried to destroy the RCC were Caucasians/Europeans. They couldn't because there were other high IQ Caucasians/Europeans who could defend the church. The RCC is not worth saving today because it is a homosexual, multi culti grand lodge. My family has been RCC for hundreds of years. I left (and many others are leaving) because of the non-whites. The RCC is the main promoter of a combination Kalergi-Hooten plan for Europe. The Arians, Pelagians, King Henry VIII, Luther are nothing compared to the destruction low IQ blacks/Asians are bringing to the RCC. I am a post-Vatican II RCCer. I discovered the Latin Mass on my own. No black/Asian can ever carry on these beautiful masses. I've had an idea for several years now that the reason Vatican II was held and the Latin Mass banished was because RCC clergy had a glimpse into the future RCCers - low IQers.

    Uhh excuse the theology of the Church was created by Christ and the apostles. There is plenty of useful information in the old testament to help explicate Christ’s mission and that of the Church.

    But those foundations for christians are in the good news and the epistles. One need not glance at the OT to know Christ or being full accordance with Christ’s theology.

    You do realize that there were small churches outside of the Catholic grasp, in fact, before Constantine, most churches were conducted in small communities. Large bodies even operated is such forms. The Church is not just the Catholic faith according to scripture. And nothing in scripture gives skin color the upper hand in knowing either theology or Christ.

    Nothing.

    Side note: I take faith very seriously, your comments to the contrary not withstanding.

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  • @Rosamond Vincy
    Post-Vatican II music has quite possibly driven away more converts than any "accessible" changes ever attracted. Someone might hear Palestrina or Tomas Luis Vittoria, and long to know what the composer believed. Could this happen with your average guitar Mass?

    Ok . . .

    as someone who sang in all prep school male choir — them’s is fight’in words.

    LOL. Because I was just listening to John Michael Talbot and Terry Talbot this afternoon – now in fact.

    And I must say — no way.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    To which the only possible response is:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eDAQtZz1yf4
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    I’m pretty sure somewhere, Rosamond is crying because you won’t be her friend. She might even be reassessing her entire life right now.

    Particularly 11:43-13:10.

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  • Oh, Attila, you have no idea how tasty baby-toes and baby-backs-of-necks can be. As a friend of mine puts it, “as long as you do it sustainably….”

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  • @attilathehen
    You are a stupid cuck who can't make a funny joke. As Ayatollah Khomeini said there are no jokes in Islam. I know about the halal racket. But you for sure are haram. Your Talha's new bud. You have revealed yourself. And, abortion is kosher in Islam. Not bad since most Muslim are black/Asian.

    I’m pretty sure somewhere, Rosamond is crying because you won’t be her friend. She might even be reassessing her entire life right now.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=175ht_TpK50

    Particularly 11:43-13:10.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Rosamond Vincy
    You shouldn't make jokes like that to Attila. I don't know if she realizes that baby-meat isn't hallal.

    You are a stupid cuck who can’t make a funny joke. As Ayatollah Khomeini said there are no jokes in Islam. I know about the halal racket. But you for sure are haram. Your Talha’s new bud. You have revealed yourself. And, abortion is kosher in Islam. Not bad since most Muslim are black/Asian.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    I’m pretty sure somewhere, Rosamond is crying because you won’t be her friend. She might even be reassessing her entire life right now.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Rosamond Vincy
    You shouldn't make jokes like that to Attila. I don't know if she realizes that baby-meat isn't hallal.

    Oops – sorry!!! I meant LOL!

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  • @Talha
    Ooga booga - I’m gonna eat your kids!!!

    You shouldn’t make jokes like that to Attila. I don’t know if she realizes that baby-meat isn’t hallal.

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    • Troll: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
    Oops - sorry!!! I meant LOL!
    , @attilathehen
    You are a stupid cuck who can't make a funny joke. As Ayatollah Khomeini said there are no jokes in Islam. I know about the halal racket. But you for sure are haram. Your Talha's new bud. You have revealed yourself. And, abortion is kosher in Islam. Not bad since most Muslim are black/Asian.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    I have no problems with Westerners using Western terms. Muslims don’t care about non-Muslim terms; never have, never will. Why does it upset you that we use our terms and refuse to let you define us? You are the first person to complain about my use of Arabic terms, why is that.

    GTFO
     
    Make me. This isn’t “your” country or “your” forum unless your name is Ron Unz.

    As if South Asian converts to Islam had anything to do with that.
     
    They didn’t; Islam is not an ethnic identity. Those are accomplishments of Islamic or Muslim civilization.

    Now you are shooting all over the place hoping to hit something.

    orthodox muslims (Salafis)
     
    Beat that dead horse.

    Answer the three questions - you are:
    1) an only child, correct?
    2) not married, correct?
    3) left liberal, correct?

    To clarify, the term “Western” should be qualified by “non-Muslim”. Western Muslims will continue to define and use our own terms as we feel like…until we get kicked out.

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  • @dfordoom

    The Catholic Church by becoming more acceptable became more accessible to more people.
     
    I'm afraid I explained my point rather badly.

    If the objective of Vatican II was to make Catholicism more popular and to gain converts (which is how I interpreted accessible) then it failed dismally.

    My view is that the objective of Vatican II was to make Catholicism acceptable to those who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular, in the vain hope that this would help the Church to survive. In fact of course it did please the Church's enemies but they remained implacable enemies and continued to work towards the extinction of the Church.

    Post-Vatican II music has quite possibly driven away more converts than any “accessible” changes ever attracted. Someone might hear Palestrina or Tomas Luis Vittoria, and long to know what the composer believed. Could this happen with your average guitar Mass?

    Read More
    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    Ok . . .


    as someone who sang in all prep school male choir --- them's is fight'in words.

    LOL. Because I was just listening to John Michael Talbot and Terry Talbot this afternoon - now in fact.


    And I must say -- no way.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TEL_7TS5FE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmubzfmVkJo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcXkqc06vhs

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bliss

    Sufism was never taught by the Prophet (pbuh) or his blessed Companions (ra) – it is, like every other “ism”, a Western term.
     
    You live in the West, you are writing in a western language, and you got a problem with western terms? GTFO. Why are you in this forum then? Or in this country? Moron...

    It is amusing to see you trying to show off by spouting Arabic terms here. Ditto for when you thump your chest over the worldly accomplishments of medieval Arabs or Persians. As if South Asian converts to Islam had anything to do with that.

    We don’t worship graves – we visit them and pray for its inhabitants.
     
    The inhabitant of the grave in a Sufi shrine is a Sufi saint. So you are saying devotees of the saint go on pilgrimages to his grave to pray to Allah on his behalf? That is the opposite of what you all are accused of and makes no sense at all. Sinners interceding for saints. Lol.

    That is an innovation any way you try to spin it. And in Islam:

    The most evil affairs are the innovations and every innovation is an error (Hadith: Sahih Muslim 1885)

    Does it upset you that most Muslims are content to follow the opinions of erudite men like the former Grand Mufti of Egypt, Shaykh Ali Gomaa:

    https://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/building-domes-and-shrines-over-the-deceased/
     
    This is what should upset you: Muftis like him cannot convince orthodox muslims (Salafis) with their opinions and stop the radical ones from blowing up Sufi shrines in Egypt and massacring the worshippers. You will always have to kowtow to Mullahs, and you will never be able to appease all of them. You cannot reconcile the finality of Islam with Sufi innovations.

    I have no problems with Westerners using Western terms. Muslims don’t care about non-Muslim terms; never have, never will. Why does it upset you that we use our terms and refuse to let you define us? You are the first person to complain about my use of Arabic terms, why is that.

    GTFO

    Make me. This isn’t “your” country or “your” forum unless your name is Ron Unz.

    As if South Asian converts to Islam had anything to do with that.

    They didn’t; Islam is not an ethnic identity. Those are accomplishments of Islamic or Muslim civilization.

    Now you are shooting all over the place hoping to hit something.

    orthodox muslims (Salafis)

    Beat that dead horse.

    Answer the three questions – you are:
    1) an only child, correct?
    2) not married, correct?
    3) left liberal, correct?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    To clarify, the term “Western” should be qualified by “non-Muslim”. Western Muslims will continue to define and use our own terms as we feel like...until we get kicked out.
    , @Bliss

    I have no problems with Westerners using Western terms. Muslims don’t care about non-Muslim terms; never have, never will. Why does it upset you that we use our terms
     
    So now, unable to defend himself in the language of the forum, the fraud is demanding that the debate be conducted in Arabic terms. He has begun pretending there is no such thing as translation. Idiot.

    Those are accomplishments of Islamic or Muslim civilization.
     
    I don’t see african or filipino christians thumping their chests over the achievements of european christians. So why is it that indian and pakistani muslims like you are always trying to boast of the achievements of arabs, persians, turks as if they were your own? It is especially obscene to see you doing that since you constantly try to suck up to alt-right racists with the “we wuz kaangs” meme.

    It is very stupid of you to think that conservatives/right-wingers are on your side, seeing how it’s the conservatives of your religion who are the worst enemies of Sufis. Your tariqah may be conservative compared to others but no Sufi tariqah will ever be anywhere close to being as conservative as the salafis.


    Answer the three questions
     
    None of your questions has anything to do with the issue. It is just an attempt to avoid answering the relevant questions that were asked of you but left unanswered.

    1. If “all tariqahs, save one, trace their their chain” to Ali, why should you join one when Mohammad is the Last Messenger of Allah, not Ali? How do you reconcile the finality of Islam with the innovations of Sufi Tariqahs?

    2. What is the Hadith that promises hundreds of thousands of virgins in Paradise, as you claimed?

    3. If “true reality” is spiritual why does it have to be attached to the body for all eternity (the ultimate stage) in heaven or hell?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Thanks for more insights as to why you are not Muslim.

    Sufism was taught by Mohammad and practiced by his companions
     
    Sufism was never taught by the Prophet (pbuh) or his blessed Companions (ra) - it is, like every other “ism”, a Western term. We don’t need it, you can trademark and restrict its usage as far as we are concerned. We have indigenous terms like; ilm al-ihsan, tazkiyat an-nafs, zuhud and plenty of others to define spirituality for ourselves. And every single tariqah traces its lineage back to the Prophet (pbuh) - does that upset you that we will continue to do things as we feel like? Why? Are you used to people telling you your opinion counts on any subject you care to talk about whether you are qualified to speak on it or not?

    We don’t worship graves - we visit them and pray for its inhabitants. Some do literally worship graves and should desist. You and Salafi-Wahahabis want to lump us all together, so?

    Does it upset you that most Muslims are content to follow the opinions of erudite men like the former Grand Mufti of Egypt, Shaykh Ali Gomaa:
    https://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/building-domes-and-shrines-over-the-deceased/

    Does it upset you that we don’t fit in the little boxes you and Orientalists have been trying to neatly put us into?

    Please answer my earlier three questions else I’ll assume I was accurate in my assessment, which would give quite an insight as to why you behave like you do.

    Sufism was never taught by the Prophet (pbuh) or his blessed Companions (ra) – it is, like every other “ism”, a Western term.

    You live in the West, you are writing in a western language, and you got a problem with western terms? GTFO. Why are you in this forum then? Or in this country? Moron…

    It is amusing to see you trying to show off by spouting Arabic terms here. Ditto for when you thump your chest over the worldly accomplishments of medieval Arabs or Persians. As if South Asian converts to Islam had anything to do with that.

    We don’t worship graves – we visit them and pray for its inhabitants.

    The inhabitant of the grave in a Sufi shrine is a Sufi saint. So you are saying devotees of the saint go on pilgrimages to his grave to pray to Allah on his behalf? That is the opposite of what you all are accused of and makes no sense at all. Sinners interceding for saints. Lol.

    That is an innovation any way you try to spin it. And in Islam:

    The most evil affairs are the innovations and every innovation is an error (Hadith: Sahih Muslim 1885)

    Does it upset you that most Muslims are content to follow the opinions of erudite men like the former Grand Mufti of Egypt, Shaykh Ali Gomaa:

    https://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/building-domes-and-shrines-over-the-deceased/

    This is what should upset you: Muftis like him cannot convince orthodox muslims (Salafis) with their opinions and stop the radical ones from blowing up Sufi shrines in Egypt and massacring the worshippers. You will always have to kowtow to Mullahs, and you will never be able to appease all of them. You cannot reconcile the finality of Islam with Sufi innovations.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    I have no problems with Westerners using Western terms. Muslims don’t care about non-Muslim terms; never have, never will. Why does it upset you that we use our terms and refuse to let you define us? You are the first person to complain about my use of Arabic terms, why is that.

    GTFO
     
    Make me. This isn’t “your” country or “your” forum unless your name is Ron Unz.

    As if South Asian converts to Islam had anything to do with that.
     
    They didn’t; Islam is not an ethnic identity. Those are accomplishments of Islamic or Muslim civilization.

    Now you are shooting all over the place hoping to hit something.

    orthodox muslims (Salafis)
     
    Beat that dead horse.

    Answer the three questions - you are:
    1) an only child, correct?
    2) not married, correct?
    3) left liberal, correct?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bliss

    I will continue to learn about Hadith athaar.......Doesn’t that just put a bee in your bonnet?
     
    Don’t flatter yourself. This is not about you, it is about what you stand for. You stand for a religion that is akin to Hotel California: you can check in any time you like, but you can never leave.

    Whoever changes his religion, kill him (Mohammad in Sahih Hadith Bukhari, 2794).

    Muslim missionaries lead innocent gullible people into this trap with the lie that Sufi spirituality is taught by Allah in the Quran, that Sufism was taught by Mohammad and practiced by his companions. Exposing that lie is what I am doing. What you are doing is a moral offense.

    Freedom in spiritual matters, which includes both joining and leaving a religion, is a fundamental human right.

    Btw, if you think you can save your Sufi tariqah from having its shrines attacked by Salafi suicide bombers by throwing under the bus Sufis who use musical instruments, you are deluding yourself. You will still remain guilty of the far worse innovation of grave worship. The sacrosanct final words of Allah and his Last Prophet will always hang over your head like a sword.

    Thanks for more insights as to why you are not Muslim.

    Sufism was taught by Mohammad and practiced by his companions

    Sufism was never taught by the Prophet (pbuh) or his blessed Companions (ra) – it is, like every other “ism”, a Western term. We don’t need it, you can trademark and restrict its usage as far as we are concerned. We have indigenous terms like; ilm al-ihsan, tazkiyat an-nafs, zuhud and plenty of others to define spirituality for ourselves. And every single tariqah traces its lineage back to the Prophet (pbuh) – does that upset you that we will continue to do things as we feel like? Why? Are you used to people telling you your opinion counts on any subject you care to talk about whether you are qualified to speak on it or not?

    We don’t worship graves – we visit them and pray for its inhabitants. Some do literally worship graves and should desist. You and Salafi-Wahahabis want to lump us all together, so?

    Does it upset you that most Muslims are content to follow the opinions of erudite men like the former Grand Mufti of Egypt, Shaykh Ali Gomaa:

    https://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/building-domes-and-shrines-over-the-deceased/

    Does it upset you that we don’t fit in the little boxes you and Orientalists have been trying to neatly put us into?

    Please answer my earlier three questions else I’ll assume I was accurate in my assessment, which would give quite an insight as to why you behave like you do.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bliss

    Sufism was never taught by the Prophet (pbuh) or his blessed Companions (ra) – it is, like every other “ism”, a Western term.
     
    You live in the West, you are writing in a western language, and you got a problem with western terms? GTFO. Why are you in this forum then? Or in this country? Moron...

    It is amusing to see you trying to show off by spouting Arabic terms here. Ditto for when you thump your chest over the worldly accomplishments of medieval Arabs or Persians. As if South Asian converts to Islam had anything to do with that.

    We don’t worship graves – we visit them and pray for its inhabitants.
     
    The inhabitant of the grave in a Sufi shrine is a Sufi saint. So you are saying devotees of the saint go on pilgrimages to his grave to pray to Allah on his behalf? That is the opposite of what you all are accused of and makes no sense at all. Sinners interceding for saints. Lol.

    That is an innovation any way you try to spin it. And in Islam:

    The most evil affairs are the innovations and every innovation is an error (Hadith: Sahih Muslim 1885)

    Does it upset you that most Muslims are content to follow the opinions of erudite men like the former Grand Mufti of Egypt, Shaykh Ali Gomaa:

    https://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/building-domes-and-shrines-over-the-deceased/
     
    This is what should upset you: Muftis like him cannot convince orthodox muslims (Salafis) with their opinions and stop the radical ones from blowing up Sufi shrines in Egypt and massacring the worshippers. You will always have to kowtow to Mullahs, and you will never be able to appease all of them. You cannot reconcile the finality of Islam with Sufi innovations.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    More Salafi-Wahhabi talking points - wonderful!!! I already said; you have full right to believe they are the one and only correct interpretation of Islam - 100%!

    “hadith athaar”
     
    Yup, I will continue to learn about Hadith athaar, both in definitional terms and specific use cases from books that never use the exact term. And I will continue to use the term Hadith athaar or athar or athar hadith or even aqwaal us-Sahabah to refer to the sayings of the Companions (ra). In fact, if you’re on a thread, I might use them interchangeably within multiple posts. I might even use the same terms when quoting from a Tabi’i like Imam Alqama (ra) or Imam Hasan al-Basit (ra). Doesn’t that just put a bee in your bonnet?

    Sufism is an innovation that appeared in a later age.
     
    As is compiling the Quran in written form and the formation of the Hanafi school of law.

    You seem to be very upset that I’m not agreeing to let you define the terms we use and the manner that we use them. Why is that? You’re free to define them as you like, but you’re also free to call yourself the queen of England. Are you used to browbeating people and insulting them until they let you?

    I’ve answered some of your questions about my personality, so please answer the following:
    1. You seem to be an only child, am I correct?
    2. You seem to be unmarried, correct?
    3. You seem to be someone who holds, what would popularly be considered, Left-liberal views, correct?

    I trust you will answer truthfully since you aren’t me.

    I will continue to learn about Hadith athaar…….Doesn’t that just put a bee in your bonnet?

    Don’t flatter yourself. This is not about you, it is about what you stand for. You stand for a religion that is akin to Hotel California: you can check in any time you like, but you can never leave.

    Whoever changes his religion, kill him (Mohammad in Sahih Hadith Bukhari, 2794).

    Muslim missionaries lead innocent gullible people into this trap with the lie that Sufi spirituality is taught by Allah in the Quran, that Sufism was taught by Mohammad and practiced by his companions. Exposing that lie is what I am doing. What you are doing is a moral offense.

    Freedom in spiritual matters, which includes both joining and leaving a religion, is a fundamental human right.

    Btw, if you think you can save your Sufi tariqah from having its shrines attacked by Salafi suicide bombers by throwing under the bus Sufis who use musical instruments, you are deluding yourself. You will still remain guilty of the far worse innovation of grave worship. The sacrosanct final words of Allah and his Last Prophet will always hang over your head like a sword.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Thanks for more insights as to why you are not Muslim.

    Sufism was taught by Mohammad and practiced by his companions
     
    Sufism was never taught by the Prophet (pbuh) or his blessed Companions (ra) - it is, like every other “ism”, a Western term. We don’t need it, you can trademark and restrict its usage as far as we are concerned. We have indigenous terms like; ilm al-ihsan, tazkiyat an-nafs, zuhud and plenty of others to define spirituality for ourselves. And every single tariqah traces its lineage back to the Prophet (pbuh) - does that upset you that we will continue to do things as we feel like? Why? Are you used to people telling you your opinion counts on any subject you care to talk about whether you are qualified to speak on it or not?

    We don’t worship graves - we visit them and pray for its inhabitants. Some do literally worship graves and should desist. You and Salafi-Wahahabis want to lump us all together, so?

    Does it upset you that most Muslims are content to follow the opinions of erudite men like the former Grand Mufti of Egypt, Shaykh Ali Gomaa:
    https://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/building-domes-and-shrines-over-the-deceased/

    Does it upset you that we don’t fit in the little boxes you and Orientalists have been trying to neatly put us into?

    Please answer my earlier three questions else I’ll assume I was accurate in my assessment, which would give quite an insight as to why you behave like you do.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    It was sarcasm, bro.

    You never know though - it might just work. I mean, I'm pretty sure you haven't been called poopoo-face in a debate - so that may just change your worldview.

    Bliss keeps on calling me a liar, but that doesn't seem to be working, so maybe he can call me peepee-face.

    Peace.

    As noted.

    I thoroughly got your point.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    A cuck and a Christian heretic, a gruesome twosome.

    Ooga booga – I’m gonna eat your kids!!!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    You shouldn't make jokes like that to Attila. I don't know if she realizes that baby-meat isn't hallal.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    It was sarcasm, bro.

    You never know though - it might just work. I mean, I'm pretty sure you haven't been called poopoo-face in a debate - so that may just change your worldview.

    Bliss keeps on calling me a liar, but that doesn't seem to be working, so maybe he can call me peepee-face.

    Peace.

    A cuck and a Christian heretic, a gruesome twosome.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Ooga booga - I’m gonna eat your kids!!!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @EliteCommInc.
    Hmmmmm . . .


    I am an advocate of free speech. However, I prefer my conversations avoid name calling or personal attacks, even though I get your point. And I am not at all comfortable encouraging a provocateur to engage in provocative that includes my mother who in my experience was an honorable woman.


    Though I thoroughly get your point.

    It was sarcasm, bro.

    You never know though – it might just work. I mean, I’m pretty sure you haven’t been called poopoo-face in a debate – so that may just change your worldview.

    Bliss keeps on calling me a liar, but that doesn’t seem to be working, so maybe he can call me peepee-face.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    A cuck and a Christian heretic, a gruesome twosome.
    , @EliteCommInc.
    As noted.

    I thoroughly got your point.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    I’m telling you, go for the jugular - call him poopoo-face! Also try telling him he eats with his butt!

    He’ll come around to agreeing with you once you’ve insulted him enough. It’s never worked for me, but you are far more intelligent so I know you can make it work.

    Also his mom; say she’s a fat cuck ‘n stuff! You haven’t tried calling his mom a cuck yet. You know you wanna - c’mon...!

    Hmmmmm . . .

    I am an advocate of free speech. However, I prefer my conversations avoid name calling or personal attacks, even though I get your point. And I am not at all comfortable encouraging a provocateur to engage in provocative that includes my mother who in my experience was an honorable woman.

    Though I thoroughly get your point.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    It was sarcasm, bro.

    You never know though - it might just work. I mean, I'm pretty sure you haven't been called poopoo-face in a debate - so that may just change your worldview.

    Bliss keeps on calling me a liar, but that doesn't seem to be working, so maybe he can call me peepee-face.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    Many times truth is revealed in jest. You revealed yourself.

    There is certainly truth in that interplay — I would be curious if you knew what it is. Iy never fails, egat when people either cannot support their argument, can’t understand another’s argument. Can’t get what they want — their attempted trump position is one of a personal attack. If you think the truth is that i want to be a Muslim — it’s plain you have missed the mark.

    I once joked with a couple of Mormons at becoming a momorn based on some appealing concept in traditional Mormon practice — now in dispute. The premise for the jest was based a condition noted here.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    Many times truth is revealed in jest. You revealed yourself.

    I’m telling you, go for the jugular – call him poopoo-face! Also try telling him he eats with his butt!

    He’ll come around to agreeing with you once you’ve insulted him enough. It’s never worked for me, but you are far more intelligent so I know you can make it work.

    Also his mom; say she’s a fat cuck ‘n stuff! You haven’t tried calling his mom a cuck yet. You know you wanna – c’mon…!

    Read More
    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    Hmmmmm . . .


    I am an advocate of free speech. However, I prefer my conversations avoid name calling or personal attacks, even though I get your point. And I am not at all comfortable encouraging a provocateur to engage in provocative that includes my mother who in my experience was an honorable woman.


    Though I thoroughly get your point.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bliss

    You asked me to post the books I am learning from; that’s the exact book
     
    Liar. I asked you to “use” the book you claimed to be studying, in which “hadith athaar” was prominent, to defend your claims about “hadith athaar”. How does posting to an Arabic language link in an English language achieve that purpose?

    No.They may repent or simply be forgiven – it’s God’s choice. He forgives and punishes who He wants.
     
    So you believe that Allah makes empty threats in the Quran? That his words shouldn’t be taken seriously? Is that what your Naqshbandi tariqah teaches? That smacks of blasphemy.

    This is the burial place of Shaykh Ahamd Sirhindi
     
    That makes you a grave worshipper, which is heresy in Islam. No sex robots in heaven for you heretic.

    Those on whom you call besides Allah are only slaves like yourselves. (Quran 7:194)

    May Allah curse the Jews and the Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets. (Hadith: Sahih Bukhari 427)

    The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, prohibited plastering the graves, sitting upon them, and building structures over them. (Hadith: Sahih Muslim 970)


    Nobody needs to join one – it’s not obligatory.
     
    There were no Sufi tariqahs at the time of the Prophet and his companions. Sufism is an innovation that appeared in a later age.

    The most evil affairs are the innovations and every innovation is an error (Hadith: Sahih Muslim 1885)

    More Salafi-Wahhabi talking points – wonderful!!! I already said; you have full right to believe they are the one and only correct interpretation of Islam – 100%!

    “hadith athaar”

    Yup, I will continue to learn about Hadith athaar, both in definitional terms and specific use cases from books that never use the exact term. And I will continue to use the term Hadith athaar or athar or athar hadith or even aqwaal us-Sahabah to refer to the sayings of the Companions (ra). In fact, if you’re on a thread, I might use them interchangeably within multiple posts. I might even use the same terms when quoting from a Tabi’i like Imam Alqama (ra) or Imam Hasan al-Basit (ra). Doesn’t that just put a bee in your bonnet?

    Sufism is an innovation that appeared in a later age.

    As is compiling the Quran in written form and the formation of the Hanafi school of law.

    You seem to be very upset that I’m not agreeing to let you define the terms we use and the manner that we use them. Why is that? You’re free to define them as you like, but you’re also free to call yourself the queen of England. Are you used to browbeating people and insulting them until they let you?

    I’ve answered some of your questions about my personality, so please answer the following:
    1. You seem to be an only child, am I correct?
    2. You seem to be unmarried, correct?
    3. You seem to be someone who holds, what would popularly be considered, Left-liberal views, correct?

    I trust you will answer truthfully since you aren’t me.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bliss

    I will continue to learn about Hadith athaar.......Doesn’t that just put a bee in your bonnet?
     
    Don’t flatter yourself. This is not about you, it is about what you stand for. You stand for a religion that is akin to Hotel California: you can check in any time you like, but you can never leave.

    Whoever changes his religion, kill him (Mohammad in Sahih Hadith Bukhari, 2794).

    Muslim missionaries lead innocent gullible people into this trap with the lie that Sufi spirituality is taught by Allah in the Quran, that Sufism was taught by Mohammad and practiced by his companions. Exposing that lie is what I am doing. What you are doing is a moral offense.

    Freedom in spiritual matters, which includes both joining and leaving a religion, is a fundamental human right.

    Btw, if you think you can save your Sufi tariqah from having its shrines attacked by Salafi suicide bombers by throwing under the bus Sufis who use musical instruments, you are deluding yourself. You will still remain guilty of the far worse innovation of grave worship. The sacrosanct final words of Allah and his Last Prophet will always hang over your head like a sword.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    You asked me to post the books I am learning from; that's the exact book - I even found the exact copy I use from the specific publishing company "Maktaba tul-Bushra", because there are multiple printings from various publishers.

    So you agree that the many Sufis
     
    No. They may repent or simply be forgiven - it's God's choice. He forgives and punishes who He wants.

    Btw, what is your Sufi lineage?
     
    Assuming I am a "sufi" - since, by your definition, "Sufi" and "Muslim" are mutually exclusive -Naqshbandi Mujaddidi.

    Does your lineage build tombs for its saints?
     
    They are scattered all over the place - from Iraq to Uzbekistan to Syria. I'm not sure what you mean by "tomb". This is the burial place of Shaykh Ahamd Sirhindi (ra) - where we get the "mujaddidi" moniker from (don't know if it counts as a "tomb"):
    https://muraqaba.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/sirhind_4.jpg

    Why do need to join a Sufi lineage anyway when Mohammad is the Last Messenger of Allah?
     
    Nobody needs to join one - it's not obligatory.

    You asked me to post the books I am learning from; that’s the exact book

    Liar. I asked you to “use” the book you claimed to be studying, in which “hadith athaar” was prominent, to defend your claims about “hadith athaar”. How does posting to an Arabic language link in an English language achieve that purpose?

    No.They may repent or simply be forgiven – it’s God’s choice. He forgives and punishes who He wants.

    So you believe that Allah makes empty threats in the Quran? That his words shouldn’t be taken seriously? Is that what your Naqshbandi tariqah teaches? That smacks of blasphemy.

    This is the burial place of Shaykh Ahamd Sirhindi

    That makes you a grave worshipper, which is heresy in Islam. No sex robots in heaven for you heretic.

    Those on whom you call besides Allah are only slaves like yourselves. (Quran 7:194)

    May Allah curse the Jews and the Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets. (Hadith: Sahih Bukhari 427)

    The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, prohibited plastering the graves, sitting upon them, and building structures over them. (Hadith: Sahih Muslim 970)

    Nobody needs to join one – it’s not obligatory.

    There were no Sufi tariqahs at the time of the Prophet and his companions. Sufism is an innovation that appeared in a later age.

    The most evil affairs are the innovations and every innovation is an error (Hadith: Sahih Muslim 1885)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    More Salafi-Wahhabi talking points - wonderful!!! I already said; you have full right to believe they are the one and only correct interpretation of Islam - 100%!

    “hadith athaar”
     
    Yup, I will continue to learn about Hadith athaar, both in definitional terms and specific use cases from books that never use the exact term. And I will continue to use the term Hadith athaar or athar or athar hadith or even aqwaal us-Sahabah to refer to the sayings of the Companions (ra). In fact, if you’re on a thread, I might use them interchangeably within multiple posts. I might even use the same terms when quoting from a Tabi’i like Imam Alqama (ra) or Imam Hasan al-Basit (ra). Doesn’t that just put a bee in your bonnet?

    Sufism is an innovation that appeared in a later age.
     
    As is compiling the Quran in written form and the formation of the Hanafi school of law.

    You seem to be very upset that I’m not agreeing to let you define the terms we use and the manner that we use them. Why is that? You’re free to define them as you like, but you’re also free to call yourself the queen of England. Are you used to browbeating people and insulting them until they let you?

    I’ve answered some of your questions about my personality, so please answer the following:
    1. You seem to be an only child, am I correct?
    2. You seem to be unmarried, correct?
    3. You seem to be someone who holds, what would popularly be considered, Left-liberal views, correct?

    I trust you will answer truthfully since you aren’t me.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @EliteComminc.
    You completely missed the point, the play and the jest. That comes from a desire to score points as opposed to having a sincere discussion.


    I am shocked . . . shocked. . .


    not at all. Good grief

    Many times truth is revealed in jest. You revealed yourself.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    I’m telling you, go for the jugular - call him poopoo-face! Also try telling him he eats with his butt!

    He’ll come around to agreeing with you once you’ve insulted him enough. It’s never worked for me, but you are far more intelligent so I know you can make it work.

    Also his mom; say she’s a fat cuck ‘n stuff! You haven’t tried calling his mom a cuck yet. You know you wanna - c’mon...!
    , @EliteCommInc.
    There is certainly truth in that interplay -- I would be curious if you knew what it is. Iy never fails, egat when people either cannot support their argument, can't understand another's argument. Can't get what they want --- their attempted trump position is one of a personal attack. If you think the truth is that i want to be a Muslim -- it's plain you have missed the mark.


    I once joked with a couple of Mormons at becoming a momorn based on some appealing concept in traditional Mormon practice -- now in dispute. The premise for the jest was based a condition noted here.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    OK, try and understand this. You make this statement: "Just curious so if I become a Muslim — when I pass — I get the virgin that was nonexistent when I was alive — tempting. So I should hang on to my celibacy — there’s hope yet. Just being silly . . ." If you take your religion seriously, this is not funny. I posted what Muslims believe about Mary (and you already know how they treat women). http://www.wnd.com/2017/01/cleric-muhammed-will-marry-virgin-mary-in-heaven/?cat_orig=faith

    "...if I become a Muslim...virgin that was nonexistent when I was alive...tempting..." you reveal yourself as a beta male who is not serious about his Christianity and you've given us a lot of information about your private life as it concerns women. Even a "silly" idea of 72 (w)houris shows how cowardly and weak a "man" you are. You are useless to the West.

    It might be a serious issue if I was serious. People make their own choices about how to configure their faith. I have expressed what I believe based on scripture and my understanding of what Christ and the Apostles have to say.

    It may be worth the effort to get into a discussion about what we believe. However, I have worked to take this cue from after a debate he was involved turned into a riot.

    “I destined then to preach Christ crucified and resurrected and that alone.”

    If someone is contending something Christ does not or the Apostles don’t delineate. I* would press them on where they are advocating from. No one thus far has advocated that a life in Christ will end with any manner of marriage in heaven. Christ in a discussion with the pharisees on heaven responded to the attempt of entrapment on this question.

    Matthew 22:25-34

    25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”

    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[a] in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?[b] God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

    If you can locate scripture to support a biology first model that attends to IQ, skin color, status, education, class, ethnicity as required for faith in practice — I would certainly have to consider it.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • You completely missed the point, the play and the jest. That comes from a desire to score points as opposed to having a sincere discussion.

    I am shocked . . . shocked. . .

    not at all. Good grief

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    Many times truth is revealed in jest. You revealed yourself.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @EliteCommInc.
    I am not sure what you are talking about. I may not agree with the comments being made. However, it is clear that the positions expressed are based on a doctrine that serves as foundation from the Qu'ran. Despite the Qu'ran's view of Heaven and tempted though I am to be treated in such wedded bliss, I am not going to run off to be Muslim.

    If I stated note the foundation and source for that belief. I am confident based on demonstrated , references would be made as to why said belief is held.

    If there is anything in scripture that supports you IQ, color, status, genetic advocacy, and the segregation in heaven hell more on earth -- our conversation would be different.

    OK, try and understand this. You make this statement: “Just curious so if I become a Muslim — when I pass — I get the virgin that was nonexistent when I was alive — tempting. So I should hang on to my celibacy — there’s hope yet. Just being silly . . .” If you take your religion seriously, this is not funny. I posted what Muslims believe about Mary (and you already know how they treat women). http://www.wnd.com/2017/01/cleric-muhammed-will-marry-virgin-mary-in-heaven/?cat_orig=faith

    “…if I become a Muslim…virgin that was nonexistent when I was alive…tempting…” you reveal yourself as a beta male who is not serious about his Christianity and you’ve given us a lot of information about your private life as it concerns women. Even a “silly” idea of 72 (w)houris shows how cowardly and weak a “man” you are. You are useless to the West.

    Read More
    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    It might be a serious issue if I was serious. People make their own choices about how to configure their faith. I have expressed what I believe based on scripture and my understanding of what Christ and the Apostles have to say.


    It may be worth the effort to get into a discussion about what we believe. However, I have worked to take this cue from after a debate he was involved turned into a riot.

    "I destined then to preach Christ crucified and resurrected and that alone."

    If someone is contending something Christ does not or the Apostles don't delineate. I* would press them on where they are advocating from. No one thus far has advocated that a life in Christ will end with any manner of marriage in heaven. Christ in a discussion with the pharisees on heaven responded to the attempt of entrapment on this question.

    Matthew 22:25-34

    25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”

    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[a] in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?[b] God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

    If you can locate scripture to support a biology first model that attends to IQ, skin color, status, education, class, ethnicity as required for faith in practice --- I would certainly have to consider it.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @dfordoom

    The Catholic Church by becoming more acceptable became more accessible to more people.
     
    I'm afraid I explained my point rather badly.

    If the objective of Vatican II was to make Catholicism more popular and to gain converts (which is how I interpreted accessible) then it failed dismally.

    My view is that the objective of Vatican II was to make Catholicism acceptable to those who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular, in the vain hope that this would help the Church to survive. In fact of course it did please the Church's enemies but they remained implacable enemies and continued to work towards the extinction of the Church.

    I want to encourage you here, but first, I would have to note that if accessibility was key then the problems today are indicative of failure. Not so on either term.

    The failures experienced in Catholicism are rocking all mainstream churches. And it may very be mainstream faiths attempts bring in more lost at the expense of Christ’s and apostolic guidance are the cause. In addition, Christ made it clear that people who follow Christ enter by a narrow door and people who follow Christ carry the weight of the cross which by far is the burden of dying to self every day.

    Currently, if I could encourage Catholics in anything it would be to read scripture. And this, the supposed Catholic scandal was an over blown abusive castigation of one of the most intense protectors of marriage and family as well protectors of children – even those in the womb. And people of faith will have a good deal of enemies and Catholics were mightily abused on that issue.

    The failures are not the result of accessibility or acceptance. It’s the world. Have christians made mistakes as a body — absolutely. But those mistakes had nothing to do with prohibiting same sex relations, unmarried priests, or having permissible standards on relations with children or anyone else – much less protecting the same. Every mother’s son and dog who had any bone to pick with their Catholicism or Catholics in general jumped ship or jumped on a rather hollow bandwagon — to castrate that denomination. And the Church didn’t respond all that well in many situations.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    You asked me to post the books I am learning from; that's the exact book - I even found the exact copy I use from the specific publishing company "Maktaba tul-Bushra", because there are multiple printings from various publishers.

    So you agree that the many Sufis
     
    No. They may repent or simply be forgiven - it's God's choice. He forgives and punishes who He wants.

    Btw, what is your Sufi lineage?
     
    Assuming I am a "sufi" - since, by your definition, "Sufi" and "Muslim" are mutually exclusive -Naqshbandi Mujaddidi.

    Does your lineage build tombs for its saints?
     
    They are scattered all over the place - from Iraq to Uzbekistan to Syria. I'm not sure what you mean by "tomb". This is the burial place of Shaykh Ahamd Sirhindi (ra) - where we get the "mujaddidi" moniker from (don't know if it counts as a "tomb"):
    https://muraqaba.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/sirhind_4.jpg

    Why do need to join a Sufi lineage anyway when Mohammad is the Last Messenger of Allah?
     
    Nobody needs to join one - it's not obligatory.

    This looks to be the structure over it which we locally call a mazar and it looks to be attached to a mosque:

    I’ve never had the pleasure to visit.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bliss

    Well I study it in the Arabic.
     
    What kind of an idiot posts a link to an Arabic language site on an English language forum where hardly anyone knows Arabic?

    And my tariqah does silent dhikr – we never use musical instruments; according to the ruling my teachers follow, it’s prohibited.
     
    So you agree that the many Sufis who use musical instruments such as Rumi’s dancing dervishes will be “turned into apes and swine” as Mohammad warned in the Hadith, and “roasted in Hell” as Allah threatened in the Quran?

    Btw, what is your Sufi lineage? Does your lineage build tombs for its saints?

    Why do need to join a Sufi lineage anyway when Mohammad is the Last Messenger of Allah?

    You asked me to post the books I am learning from; that’s the exact book – I even found the exact copy I use from the specific publishing company “Maktaba tul-Bushra”, because there are multiple printings from various publishers.

    So you agree that the many Sufis

    No. They may repent or simply be forgiven – it’s God’s choice. He forgives and punishes who He wants.

    Btw, what is your Sufi lineage?

    Assuming I am a “sufi” – since, by your definition, “Sufi” and “Muslim” are mutually exclusive -Naqshbandi Mujaddidi.

    Does your lineage build tombs for its saints?

    They are scattered all over the place – from Iraq to Uzbekistan to Syria. I’m not sure what you mean by “tomb”. This is the burial place of Shaykh Ahamd Sirhindi (ra) – where we get the “mujaddidi” moniker from (don’t know if it counts as a “tomb”):

    Why do need to join a Sufi lineage anyway when Mohammad is the Last Messenger of Allah?

    Nobody needs to join one – it’s not obligatory.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    This looks to be the structure over it which we locally call a mazar and it looks to be attached to a mosque:
    http://www.raillife.com.tr/en/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/47.jpg

    I've never had the pleasure to visit.
    , @Bliss

    You asked me to post the books I am learning from; that’s the exact book
     
    Liar. I asked you to “use” the book you claimed to be studying, in which “hadith athaar” was prominent, to defend your claims about “hadith athaar”. How does posting to an Arabic language link in an English language achieve that purpose?

    No.They may repent or simply be forgiven – it’s God’s choice. He forgives and punishes who He wants.
     
    So you believe that Allah makes empty threats in the Quran? That his words shouldn’t be taken seriously? Is that what your Naqshbandi tariqah teaches? That smacks of blasphemy.

    This is the burial place of Shaykh Ahamd Sirhindi
     
    That makes you a grave worshipper, which is heresy in Islam. No sex robots in heaven for you heretic.

    Those on whom you call besides Allah are only slaves like yourselves. (Quran 7:194)

    May Allah curse the Jews and the Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets. (Hadith: Sahih Bukhari 427)

    The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, prohibited plastering the graves, sitting upon them, and building structures over them. (Hadith: Sahih Muslim 970)


    Nobody needs to join one – it’s not obligatory.
     
    There were no Sufi tariqahs at the time of the Prophet and his companions. Sufism is an innovation that appeared in a later age.

    The most evil affairs are the innovations and every innovation is an error (Hadith: Sahih Muslim 1885)

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Well I study it in the Arabic.

    And yup you won't find that term in there because Imam Marghinani (ra) uses the term riwayat or khabar in place of hadith - I don't think he uses the term hadith once (I'll ask my teacher why that is - was it because in that period that term was given preference or was is the way jurists distinguish the term as opposed to hadith scholars - don't know) - and even if he did, it may be translated. And the translators have chosen to translate athar and use the word "report" in its place. The relevant passage I pointed to is on the top of pg 205 in the translation, saying:
    "The period is also available through a report from Ibn Abbas and Ibn Umar (God be pleased with them) a report in such cases is like a khabar (tradition from the Prophet (God bless him and grant him peace))."

    Any serious student of this stuff will know exactly what you mean if you use terms like athar, hadith athaar, athar hadith or khabar, khabar hadith, khabar wahid, etc.

    But yeah dude, you totally got me on the exact term "hadith athaar" not being in the book - oh noezzzz! I still plan to use it anyway to refer to hadith athaar.

    I'm sure everyone here is convinced I'm a complete fraud by now. You have done your duty...
    https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/benny-hill/images/3/38/Fred1.jpg

    And my tariqah does silent dhikr - we never use musical instruments; according to the ruling my teachers follow, it's prohibited.

    Well I study it in the Arabic.

    What kind of an idiot posts a link to an Arabic language site on an English language forum where hardly anyone knows Arabic?

    And my tariqah does silent dhikr – we never use musical instruments; according to the ruling my teachers follow, it’s prohibited.

    So you agree that the many Sufis who use musical instruments such as Rumi’s dancing dervishes will be “turned into apes and swine” as Mohammad warned in the Hadith, and “roasted in Hell” as Allah threatened in the Quran?

    Btw, what is your Sufi lineage? Does your lineage build tombs for its saints?

    Why do need to join a Sufi lineage anyway when Mohammad is the Last Messenger of Allah?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    You asked me to post the books I am learning from; that's the exact book - I even found the exact copy I use from the specific publishing company "Maktaba tul-Bushra", because there are multiple printings from various publishers.

    So you agree that the many Sufis
     
    No. They may repent or simply be forgiven - it's God's choice. He forgives and punishes who He wants.

    Btw, what is your Sufi lineage?
     
    Assuming I am a "sufi" - since, by your definition, "Sufi" and "Muslim" are mutually exclusive -Naqshbandi Mujaddidi.

    Does your lineage build tombs for its saints?
     
    They are scattered all over the place - from Iraq to Uzbekistan to Syria. I'm not sure what you mean by "tomb". This is the burial place of Shaykh Ahamd Sirhindi (ra) - where we get the "mujaddidi" moniker from (don't know if it counts as a "tomb"):
    https://muraqaba.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/sirhind_4.jpg

    Why do need to join a Sufi lineage anyway when Mohammad is the Last Messenger of Allah?
     
    Nobody needs to join one - it's not obligatory.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    What a cuck. You prove my point once again.

    I am not sure what you are talking about. I may not agree with the comments being made. However, it is clear that the positions expressed are based on a doctrine that serves as foundation from the Qu’ran. Despite the Qu’ran’s view of Heaven and tempted though I am to be treated in such wedded bliss, I am not going to run off to be Muslim.

    If I stated note the foundation and source for that belief. I am confident based on demonstrated , references would be made as to why said belief is held.

    If there is anything in scripture that supports you IQ, color, status, genetic advocacy, and the segregation in heaven hell more on earth — our conversation would be different.

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    OK, try and understand this. You make this statement: "Just curious so if I become a Muslim — when I pass — I get the virgin that was nonexistent when I was alive — tempting. So I should hang on to my celibacy — there’s hope yet. Just being silly . . ." If you take your religion seriously, this is not funny. I posted what Muslims believe about Mary (and you already know how they treat women). http://www.wnd.com/2017/01/cleric-muhammed-will-marry-virgin-mary-in-heaven/?cat_orig=faith

    "...if I become a Muslim...virgin that was nonexistent when I was alive...tempting..." you reveal yourself as a beta male who is not serious about his Christianity and you've given us a lot of information about your private life as it concerns women. Even a "silly" idea of 72 (w)houris shows how cowardly and weak a "man" you are. You are useless to the West.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @dfordoom

    I’m glad you pointed out this peculiar trait in Europeans because I can see it, but can’t figure out why such intelligent people can’t seem to figure out a middle-path approach to certain things.
     
    European society has a unique dynamism, a taste for innovation and exploration. I guess that inevitably brings with it chronic instability. As soon as Europeans build a successful society they begin to destroy it. And that may be why we veer from one extreme to another. Wanting to push things to an extreme can be an asset or it can be a liability. We don't do things in a half-hearted way. When we embark on cultural suicide we do it in the grand style.

    It's interesting that Europeans think of themselves as being very rational. We believe we invented science for example. But in practice we're wildly irrational and prone to emotional incontinence.

    Perhaps European society has also always been too feminised. A feminised society is going to be emotionally unstable.

    These are good points.

    It’s interesting that Europeans think of themselves as being very rational.

    AAronB has some good posts on this subject talking about the myths various societies tell themselves. It’s also in some of how they perceive their own history. For instance; here and other places – I’ve been told Islam is a medieval religion.

    Now, only Europeans would use that as a pejorative because some portions of medieval were pretty damn bad in Europe. After them Enlightenment, they convinced themselves it was all bad – they had to, to be able to break from the past.

    For us, medieval was pretty darn good – we were top of the world – so we don’t see it as an insult. Thus we can more reasonably negotiate with the past and its traditions (like the fact that people like myself still study 12th century texts while managing IT development teams) as we meet the future.

    It’s like the different experience that a popular jock has going through high school and some pimply-faced nerdy trekkie. The jock’s probably going to look back on that period with nostalgia, while the trekkie is going to hate looking back and probably convince himself that he was overweight too.

    Perhaps European society has also always been too feminised.

    I don’t know about always, but I would certainly agree that it is now. You know, I wonder – never thought of this before – if a lot of this has to do with the aftermath of WW2. I mean millions upon millions of young men died – and I would assume that the more brave and masculine you were, the better chance you had to die and being more cowardly and reticent would have actually given you a distinct survival advantage.

    Like I’ve never understood why Europeans often look at the masculine trait of virility as a bad thing . Is it because of historic monasticism in the church?

    Peace.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bliss

    Page 364, Vol 1

    https://archive.org/stream/AlHidayahVol1AlBushra#page/n363/mode/2up
     
    Pathetic. The fraud links to an Arabic language source even though a searchable English language translation is easily available:

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/275394159/Al-Hidayah-Full-Compilation-Searchable

    A search for “hadith athar” gives 0 results. The word Hadith gives just 1 result and the word Athar gives only 14 with a number of them in which athar is part of a longer word. Even though Talha claims this book (which he claims he is currently studying) “uses hadith athaar extensively as proofs”. Using the word athaar instead of athar was wrong in the first place. Combining the words Hadith and Athar was an absurdity.

    Wikiislam gives only 8 results for Athar, the first 5 of which are some Indian muslim author’s middle name, showing it’s unimportance. Amusingly, the 3 low ranked search results which actually have to do with real meaning of the word Athar are all about music and dance (common in Sufism) being forbidden in Islam. Here is what 2 of the 3 search results link to:

    https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Music_and_Singing_-_Consensus_of_Companions_Taabieen_and_others

    In conclusion, the general consensus of the companions, taabi'een and the following generations of Islamic scholars up to the present day, including the four Imams, points to the ruling of prohibition of music and song (other than the exceptions to be mentioned later).

    There is agreement among the four imams that all musical instruments[136] (ma'aazif) are forbidden. Shaykhul Islam Ibn Taymiyyah affirms this in his celebrated Fataawa where he says, "The madhhab of the four imams is that all instruments of musical entertainment are haraam [forbidden]. It is authentically related in Saheehul Bukhaari and other compilations that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) foretold that some of his ummah would seek to make lawful: fornication, the wearing of silk, wine-drinking and musical instruments [ma'aazif]; and that such people would be turned into apes and swine.

    In short, the Prophet foretold in the most trustworthy Hadith that people like Talha, will be turned into apes and pigs. And Allah says in the Quran that those who follow anyone other than his Last Messenger will be roasted in Hell.

    So what awaits this brainwashed fool in the afterlife? Will he be resurrected as an infinitely horny stud in Paradise coupling endlessly with 72 sex robots, or will he find himself in Hell in the body of a squealing pig or a screaming monkey being endlessly roasted in a pit and never dying? Insanity...

    Well I study it in the Arabic.

    And yup you won’t find that term in there because Imam Marghinani (ra) uses the term riwayat or khabar in place of hadith – I don’t think he uses the term hadith once (I’ll ask my teacher why that is – was it because in that period that term was given preference or was is the way jurists distinguish the term as opposed to hadith scholars – don’t know) – and even if he did, it may be translated. And the translators have chosen to translate athar and use the word “report” in its place. The relevant passage I pointed to is on the top of pg 205 in the translation, saying:
    “The period is also available through a report from Ibn Abbas and Ibn Umar (God be pleased with them) a report in such cases is like a khabar (tradition from the Prophet (God bless him and grant him peace)).”

    Any serious student of this stuff will know exactly what you mean if you use terms like athar, hadith athaar, athar hadith or khabar, khabar hadith, khabar wahid, etc.

    But yeah dude, you totally got me on the exact term “hadith athaar” not being in the book – oh noezzzz! I still plan to use it anyway to refer to hadith athaar.

    I’m sure everyone here is convinced I’m a complete fraud by now. You have done your duty…

    And my tariqah does silent dhikr – we never use musical instruments; according to the ruling my teachers follow, it’s prohibited.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bliss

    Well I study it in the Arabic.
     
    What kind of an idiot posts a link to an Arabic language site on an English language forum where hardly anyone knows Arabic?

    And my tariqah does silent dhikr – we never use musical instruments; according to the ruling my teachers follow, it’s prohibited.
     
    So you agree that the many Sufis who use musical instruments such as Rumi’s dancing dervishes will be “turned into apes and swine” as Mohammad warned in the Hadith, and “roasted in Hell” as Allah threatened in the Quran?

    Btw, what is your Sufi lineage? Does your lineage build tombs for its saints?

    Why do need to join a Sufi lineage anyway when Mohammad is the Last Messenger of Allah?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha

    European civilisation seems to contain within it a great deal of craziness. Not just craziness, but dangerous psychosis.
     
    This is very true. Their approach to serious matters seems very strange - at either of two extremes. I mentioned this in other posts:
    "The issue is systemic within the Western framework with hyper-individualism being a major problem and a legal system of one-size-fits-all. The Western approach to its Jewish (or other minorities) community seems to be bipolar; either they are given the keys to the civilizational castle or they are being killed or deported."
    http://www.unz.com/tsaker/a-crash-course-on-the-true-causes-of-anti-semitism/?highlight=bipolar#comment-2025452

    "Why are the options so bipolar; we either 1) have to cuddle and excuse them or 2) we burn anybody that looks like them alive? I thought Britain was a High IQ society; it can’t come up with a reasonable middle-ground solution that’s not lifted from the playbook of Genghiz Khan?"
    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/the-telford-child-sex-scandal-and-the-end-of-england/?highlight=bipolar#comment-2254370

    "Now, Westphalia started to change all that until you get to the point that you have today* – but now you are also complaining that a religious minority has, in effect, got a strangle-hold on the levers of power and is transforming society to your detriment. So which is it? You can’t have it both ways; pat yourself about how open and egalitarian you are and then complain about the consequences – it simply doesn’t make sense. “Look at us – we have three Jews in the Supreme Court!” while “Oh my God – there are three Jews in the Supreme Court!”"
    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/a-good-year-for-israel-and-its-friends/#comment-2125556

    It's completely different than ours which is to give minorities a level of inclusion and enfranchisement but not at a level that is threatening to the over all hierarchy.

    I'm glad you pointed out this peculiar trait in Europeans because I can see it, but can't figure out why such intelligent people can't seem to figure out a middle-path approach to certain things.

    Peace.

    I’m glad you pointed out this peculiar trait in Europeans because I can see it, but can’t figure out why such intelligent people can’t seem to figure out a middle-path approach to certain things.

    European society has a unique dynamism, a taste for innovation and exploration. I guess that inevitably brings with it chronic instability. As soon as Europeans build a successful society they begin to destroy it. And that may be why we veer from one extreme to another. Wanting to push things to an extreme can be an asset or it can be a liability. We don’t do things in a half-hearted way. When we embark on cultural suicide we do it in the grand style.

    It’s interesting that Europeans think of themselves as being very rational. We believe we invented science for example. But in practice we’re wildly irrational and prone to emotional incontinence.

    Perhaps European society has also always been too feminised. A feminised society is going to be emotionally unstable.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    These are good points.

    It’s interesting that Europeans think of themselves as being very rational.
     
    AAronB has some good posts on this subject talking about the myths various societies tell themselves. It's also in some of how they perceive their own history. For instance; here and other places - I've been told Islam is a medieval religion.

    Now, only Europeans would use that as a pejorative because some portions of medieval were pretty damn bad in Europe. After them Enlightenment, they convinced themselves it was all bad - they had to, to be able to break from the past.

    For us, medieval was pretty darn good - we were top of the world - so we don't see it as an insult. Thus we can more reasonably negotiate with the past and its traditions (like the fact that people like myself still study 12th century texts while managing IT development teams) as we meet the future.

    It's like the different experience that a popular jock has going through high school and some pimply-faced nerdy trekkie. The jock's probably going to look back on that period with nostalgia, while the trekkie is going to hate looking back and probably convince himself that he was overweight too.

    Perhaps European society has also always been too feminised.
     
    I don't know about always, but I would certainly agree that it is now. You know, I wonder - never thought of this before - if a lot of this has to do with the aftermath of WW2. I mean millions upon millions of young men died - and I would assume that the more brave and masculine you were, the better chance you had to die and being more cowardly and reticent would have actually given you a distinct survival advantage.

    Like I've never understood why Europeans often look at the masculine trait of virility as a bad thing . Is it because of historic monasticism in the church?

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @EliteCommInc.
    Excuse me. But I have to laugh here. What is it about my comment that contradicts what you just said. My comment was not a criticism. It was an observation. So the term you are having issues with is acceptability over accessibility . . . a minor but not contradictory position that could be included.

    Laugh.

    The Catholic Church by becoming more acceptable became more accessible to more people. I on occasions get caught up in fine details but your objection brings nothing new to the table. My comment does not challenge the length of time Catholics have been around.

    My comment has no bearing directly who was the selected Pope. I would consider that once a non-Catholic noted a pope they found acceptable they might then access Catholic services, dogma, and practice. As no one and mean no one considers the Pope accessible to the common parishioner.

    I think the Church can and will survive its enemies. All of Christianity is or will be coming under assault one day. I am concerned that so much of the Catholic leadership seem to be adopting practices wholly unacceptable to Christ. And I don't mean the issue of priests being allowed to marry women.

    Given the content and context -- my comment is neither nonsense nor out of line with Catholic theology in any way, as little as I know about doctrine. Though I appreciate the opportunity to clarify the comment.


    https://standardbearer.rfpa.org/node/43224

    The Catholic Church by becoming more acceptable became more accessible to more people.

    I’m afraid I explained my point rather badly.

    If the objective of Vatican II was to make Catholicism more popular and to gain converts (which is how I interpreted accessible) then it failed dismally.

    My view is that the objective of Vatican II was to make Catholicism acceptable to those who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular, in the vain hope that this would help the Church to survive. In fact of course it did please the Church’s enemies but they remained implacable enemies and continued to work towards the extinction of the Church.

    Read More
    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    I want to encourage you here, but first, I would have to note that if accessibility was key then the problems today are indicative of failure. Not so on either term.


    The failures experienced in Catholicism are rocking all mainstream churches. And it may very be mainstream faiths attempts bring in more lost at the expense of Christ's and apostolic guidance are the cause. In addition, Christ made it clear that people who follow Christ enter by a narrow door and people who follow Christ carry the weight of the cross which by far is the burden of dying to self every day.

    Currently, if I could encourage Catholics in anything it would be to read scripture. And this, the supposed Catholic scandal was an over blown abusive castigation of one of the most intense protectors of marriage and family as well protectors of children - even those in the womb. And people of faith will have a good deal of enemies and Catholics were mightily abused on that issue.

    The failures are not the result of accessibility or acceptance. It's the world. Have christians made mistakes as a body -- absolutely. But those mistakes had nothing to do with prohibiting same sex relations, unmarried priests, or having permissible standards on relations with children or anyone else - much less protecting the same. Every mother's son and dog who had any bone to pick with their Catholicism or Catholics in general jumped ship or jumped on a rather hollow bandwagon -- to castrate that denomination. And the Church didn't respond all that well in many situations.
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    Post-Vatican II music has quite possibly driven away more converts than any "accessible" changes ever attracted. Someone might hear Palestrina or Tomas Luis Vittoria, and long to know what the composer believed. Could this happen with your average guitar Mass?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Yeah homie - you're awesome with your resistance to taqiyyah awesomeness!

    http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/7b/7b24a988c727db73bcf705a55cb98fa0055ba9a7f131280f3a158238887f0103.jpg

    I'll do you a favor...

    Hey everybody - stay away from the taqiyyah Muzzie troll named Talha because he is a filthy liar and he smells bad.

    Page 364, Vol 1
    https://archive.org/stream/AlHidayahVol1AlBushra#page/n363/mode/2up

    Page 364, Vol 1

    https://archive.org/stream/AlHidayahVol1AlBushra#page/n363/mode/2up

    Pathetic. The fraud links to an Arabic language source even though a searchable English language translation is easily available:

    A search for “hadith athar” gives 0 results. The word Hadith gives just 1 result and the word Athar gives only 14 with a number of them in which athar is part of a longer word. Even though Talha claims this book (which he claims he is currently studying) “uses hadith athaar extensively as proofs”. Using the word athaar instead of athar was wrong in the first place. Combining the words Hadith and Athar was an absurdity.

    Wikiislam gives only 8 results for Athar, the first 5 of which are some Indian muslim author’s middle name, showing it’s unimportance. Amusingly, the 3 low ranked search results which actually have to do with real meaning of the word Athar are all about music and dance (common in Sufism) being forbidden in Islam. Here is what 2 of the 3 search results link to:

    https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Music_and_Singing_-_Consensus_of_Companions_Taabieen_and_others

    In conclusion, the general consensus of the companions, taabi’een and the following generations of Islamic scholars up to the present day, including the four Imams, points to the ruling of prohibition of music and song (other than the exceptions to be mentioned later).

    There is agreement among the four imams that all musical instruments[136] (ma’aazif) are forbidden. Shaykhul Islam Ibn Taymiyyah affirms this in his celebrated Fataawa where he says, “The madhhab of the four imams is that all instruments of musical entertainment are haraam [forbidden]. It is authentically related in Saheehul Bukhaari and other compilations that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) foretold that some of his ummah would seek to make lawful: fornication, the wearing of silk, wine-drinking and musical instruments [ma'aazif]; and that such people would be turned into apes and swine.

    In short, the Prophet foretold in the most trustworthy Hadith that people like Talha, will be turned into apes and pigs. And Allah says in the Quran that those who follow anyone other than his Last Messenger will be roasted in Hell.

    So what awaits this brainwashed fool in the afterlife? Will he be resurrected as an infinitely horny stud in Paradise coupling endlessly with 72 sex robots, or will he find himself in Hell in the body of a squealing pig or a screaming monkey being endlessly roasted in a pit and never dying? Insanity…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Well I study it in the Arabic.

    And yup you won't find that term in there because Imam Marghinani (ra) uses the term riwayat or khabar in place of hadith - I don't think he uses the term hadith once (I'll ask my teacher why that is - was it because in that period that term was given preference or was is the way jurists distinguish the term as opposed to hadith scholars - don't know) - and even if he did, it may be translated. And the translators have chosen to translate athar and use the word "report" in its place. The relevant passage I pointed to is on the top of pg 205 in the translation, saying:
    "The period is also available through a report from Ibn Abbas and Ibn Umar (God be pleased with them) a report in such cases is like a khabar (tradition from the Prophet (God bless him and grant him peace))."

    Any serious student of this stuff will know exactly what you mean if you use terms like athar, hadith athaar, athar hadith or khabar, khabar hadith, khabar wahid, etc.

    But yeah dude, you totally got me on the exact term "hadith athaar" not being in the book - oh noezzzz! I still plan to use it anyway to refer to hadith athaar.

    I'm sure everyone here is convinced I'm a complete fraud by now. You have done your duty...
    https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/benny-hill/images/3/38/Fred1.jpg

    And my tariqah does silent dhikr - we never use musical instruments; according to the ruling my teachers follow, it's prohibited.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    What a cuck. You prove my point once again.

    I don’t think he is getting it. I think you should start calling him poopoo-head and peeper-face and he’ll come around.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @dfordoom

    Vatican II was intended to make Catholicism more accessible to more people.
     
    Nonsense. Catholicism had been around for 2,000 years. It had never had a problem being accessible to people. No religion in history has ever been so spectacularly successful as Catholicism in making itself accessible to people.

    Vatican II was intended to make Catholicism more acceptable to people who hated Catholicism.

    Just as Bergoglio was chosen as being the Pope most acceptable to people who hate Catholicism.

    The Catholic Church has been through tough times before but never before has the Church been controlled by people who actively wish to destroy it. The Church can survive a bad Pope. It can't survive a hierarchy dominated by enemies of religion.

    You have to understand that the RCC survived for 2000 years because it started in the Caucasian Middle East and flowered in Europe. This is over. The majority of RCCers are now black/Asian. They will never produce the theology, culture created for the first 2000 years. The people who previously tried to destroy the RCC were Caucasians/Europeans. They couldn’t because there were other high IQ Caucasians/Europeans who could defend the church. The RCC is not worth saving today because it is a homosexual, multi culti grand lodge. My family has been RCC for hundreds of years. I left (and many others are leaving) because of the non-whites. The RCC is the main promoter of a combination Kalergi-Hooten plan for Europe. The Arians, Pelagians, King Henry VIII, Luther are nothing compared to the destruction low IQ blacks/Asians are bringing to the RCC. I am a post-Vatican II RCCer. I discovered the Latin Mass on my own. No black/Asian can ever carry on these beautiful masses. I’ve had an idea for several years now that the reason Vatican II was held and the Latin Mass banished was because RCC clergy had a glimpse into the future RCCers – low IQers.

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    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    Uhh excuse the theology of the Church was created by Christ and the apostles. There is plenty of useful information in the old testament to help explicate Christ's mission and that of the Church.


    But those foundations for christians are in the good news and the epistles. One need not glance at the OT to know Christ or being full accordance with Christ's theology.


    You do realize that there were small churches outside of the Catholic grasp, in fact, before Constantine, most churches were conducted in small communities. Large bodies even operated is such forms. The Church is not just the Catholic faith according to scripture. And nothing in scripture gives skin color the upper hand in knowing either theology or Christ.

    Nothing.


    Side note: I take faith very seriously, your comments to the contrary not withstanding.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @EliteCommInc.
    Uhhh,


    Just curious so if I become a Muslim -- when I pass -- I get the virgin that was nonexistent when I was alive --- tempting. So I should hang on to my celibacy --- there's hope yet.


    Just being silly . . .

    What a cuck. You prove my point once again.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    I don’t think he is getting it. I think you should start calling him poopoo-head and peeper-face and he’ll come around.
    , @EliteCommInc.
    I am not sure what you are talking about. I may not agree with the comments being made. However, it is clear that the positions expressed are based on a doctrine that serves as foundation from the Qu'ran. Despite the Qu'ran's view of Heaven and tempted though I am to be treated in such wedded bliss, I am not going to run off to be Muslim.

    If I stated note the foundation and source for that belief. I am confident based on demonstrated , references would be made as to why said belief is held.

    If there is anything in scripture that supports you IQ, color, status, genetic advocacy, and the segregation in heaven hell more on earth -- our conversation would be different.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha

    A wife with no free will — making a man happy as her entire existence
     
    Yup, that’s what these beings are literally made for. Just like the many servants one gets; that’s their entire purpose of existence. They are described as looking human, but they’ never set foot on the Earth.

    Feminists can say whatever they want; it’s not like they get to devise what Paradise looks like - they might not let any men in.

    My wife (who is a convert from a very liberal family in Berkeley) knows about all this and frankly finds it kind of funny what men’s version of Paradise is. It just kind of solidifies for her how vulnerable men are to the charms of women - it’s our number one weakness. To me, I think it’s funny that they are probably looking forward to having a new pair of shoes whenever they feel like - LOL!

    Ustadh Nouman Khan did a funny experiment about it with some teenagers:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IizE7-9udDM

    Peace.

    I have but one comment.

    No comment.

    Read More
    • LOL: Talha
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @dfordoom

    It seems funny to think about it now; but the Netherlands used to control Indonesia. I can’t fathom them even thinking about it now.
     
    Europeans swing from one extreme to another. The Dutch used to control Indonesia. Now they don't even want to control their own country. It's like Europeans are all manic-depressive. They have huge mood swings. One minute they want to give the whole world a great big hug. The next minute they're wanting to bomb people in countries they've barely even heard of. Or they want to destroy themselves by starting another world war.

    European civilisation seems to contain within it a great deal of craziness. Not just craziness, but dangerous psychosis.

    European civilisation seems to contain within it a great deal of craziness. Not just craziness, but dangerous psychosis.

    This is very true. Their approach to serious matters seems very strange – at either of two extremes. I mentioned this in other posts:
    “The issue is systemic within the Western framework with hyper-individualism being a major problem and a legal system of one-size-fits-all. The Western approach to its Jewish (or other minorities) community seems to be bipolar; either they are given the keys to the civilizational castle or they are being killed or deported.”

    http://www.unz.com/tsaker/a-crash-course-on-the-true-causes-of-anti-semitism/?highlight=bipolar#comment-2025452

    “Why are the options so bipolar; we either 1) have to cuddle and excuse them or 2) we burn anybody that looks like them alive? I thought Britain was a High IQ society; it can’t come up with a reasonable middle-ground solution that’s not lifted from the playbook of Genghiz Khan?”

    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/the-telford-child-sex-scandal-and-the-end-of-england/?highlight=bipolar#comment-2254370

    “Now, Westphalia started to change all that until you get to the point that you have today* – but now you are also complaining that a religious minority has, in effect, got a strangle-hold on the levers of power and is transforming society to your detriment. So which is it? You can’t have it both ways; pat yourself about how open and egalitarian you are and then complain about the consequences – it simply doesn’t make sense. “Look at us – we have three Jews in the Supreme Court!” while “Oh my God – there are three Jews in the Supreme Court!””

    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/a-good-year-for-israel-and-its-friends/#comment-2125556

    It’s completely different than ours which is to give minorities a level of inclusion and enfranchisement but not at a level that is threatening to the over all hierarchy.

    I’m glad you pointed out this peculiar trait in Europeans because I can see it, but can’t figure out why such intelligent people can’t seem to figure out a middle-path approach to certain things.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dfordoom

    I’m glad you pointed out this peculiar trait in Europeans because I can see it, but can’t figure out why such intelligent people can’t seem to figure out a middle-path approach to certain things.
     
    European society has a unique dynamism, a taste for innovation and exploration. I guess that inevitably brings with it chronic instability. As soon as Europeans build a successful society they begin to destroy it. And that may be why we veer from one extreme to another. Wanting to push things to an extreme can be an asset or it can be a liability. We don't do things in a half-hearted way. When we embark on cultural suicide we do it in the grand style.

    It's interesting that Europeans think of themselves as being very rational. We believe we invented science for example. But in practice we're wildly irrational and prone to emotional incontinence.

    Perhaps European society has also always been too feminised. A feminised society is going to be emotionally unstable.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bliss

    Sub-chapter on the term Athar from the chapter “An Introduction to Some Important Hadith Terminologies” An Introduction to Hadith: History and Sources
     
    Nowhere does it mention “hadith athar”. In fact that combination of words would be absurd based on the above. Try again. Didn’t you claim to be studying “hadith athar” currently?

    In fact, I’m currently studying the Hidayah by Imam Marghinani (ra), a 12th century legal compendium of the Hanafi school, which uses hadith athaar extensively as proofs.
     
    Why don’t you use the books you claim to be studying to prove you are not bullshitting?

    Looks like wikisilam doesn’t have a reference for ‘athaar’ (which is simply the transliteration of the Arabic broken plural of ‘athar’).
     
    Lol. So why didn’t you show us what it says about “athar”?

    Btw, still waiting for the hadith that promises you will have “hundreds of thousands” of virgins to screw in heaven. Find it or admit you lied there as well.

    Yeah homie – you’re awesome with your resistance to taqiyyah awesomeness!

    I’ll do you a favor…

    Hey everybody – stay away from the taqiyyah Muzzie troll named Talha because he is a filthy liar and he smells bad.

    Page 364, Vol 1

    https://archive.org/stream/AlHidayahVol1AlBushra#page/n363/mode/2up

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bliss

    Page 364, Vol 1

    https://archive.org/stream/AlHidayahVol1AlBushra#page/n363/mode/2up
     
    Pathetic. The fraud links to an Arabic language source even though a searchable English language translation is easily available:

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/275394159/Al-Hidayah-Full-Compilation-Searchable

    A search for “hadith athar” gives 0 results. The word Hadith gives just 1 result and the word Athar gives only 14 with a number of them in which athar is part of a longer word. Even though Talha claims this book (which he claims he is currently studying) “uses hadith athaar extensively as proofs”. Using the word athaar instead of athar was wrong in the first place. Combining the words Hadith and Athar was an absurdity.

    Wikiislam gives only 8 results for Athar, the first 5 of which are some Indian muslim author’s middle name, showing it’s unimportance. Amusingly, the 3 low ranked search results which actually have to do with real meaning of the word Athar are all about music and dance (common in Sufism) being forbidden in Islam. Here is what 2 of the 3 search results link to:

    https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Music_and_Singing_-_Consensus_of_Companions_Taabieen_and_others

    In conclusion, the general consensus of the companions, taabi'een and the following generations of Islamic scholars up to the present day, including the four Imams, points to the ruling of prohibition of music and song (other than the exceptions to be mentioned later).

    There is agreement among the four imams that all musical instruments[136] (ma'aazif) are forbidden. Shaykhul Islam Ibn Taymiyyah affirms this in his celebrated Fataawa where he says, "The madhhab of the four imams is that all instruments of musical entertainment are haraam [forbidden]. It is authentically related in Saheehul Bukhaari and other compilations that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) foretold that some of his ummah would seek to make lawful: fornication, the wearing of silk, wine-drinking and musical instruments [ma'aazif]; and that such people would be turned into apes and swine.

    In short, the Prophet foretold in the most trustworthy Hadith that people like Talha, will be turned into apes and pigs. And Allah says in the Quran that those who follow anyone other than his Last Messenger will be roasted in Hell.

    So what awaits this brainwashed fool in the afterlife? Will he be resurrected as an infinitely horny stud in Paradise coupling endlessly with 72 sex robots, or will he find himself in Hell in the body of a squealing pig or a screaming monkey being endlessly roasted in a pit and never dying? Insanity...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @EliteCommInc.
    Excuse my levity ----

    I am sincerely joshing. I think there are celibate women left in Christianity.

    I had better quit while I am behind. My icetea is waiting.


    Ohhh wait, I missed this -----

    "They don’t really have a free-will either – their entire purpose is to make the men they were assigned to happy. You could almost consider them not much different than automatons or programmed bioroids, etc."

    Ok enough. A wife with no free will --- making a man happy as her entire existence ----

    I hear feminists, well women in general sharpening their knives.

    A wife with no free will — making a man happy as her entire existence

    Yup, that’s what these beings are literally made for. Just like the many servants one gets; that’s their entire purpose of existence. They are described as looking human, but they’ never set foot on the Earth.

    Feminists can say whatever they want; it’s not like they get to devise what Paradise looks like – they might not let any men in.

    My wife (who is a convert from a very liberal family in Berkeley) knows about all this and frankly finds it kind of funny what men’s version of Paradise is. It just kind of solidifies for her how vulnerable men are to the charms of women – it’s our number one weakness. To me, I think it’s funny that they are probably looking forward to having a new pair of shoes whenever they feel like – LOL!

    Ustadh Nouman Khan did a funny experiment about it with some teenagers:

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    I have but one comment.


    No comment.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @dfordoom

    Vatican II was intended to make Catholicism more accessible to more people.
     
    Nonsense. Catholicism had been around for 2,000 years. It had never had a problem being accessible to people. No religion in history has ever been so spectacularly successful as Catholicism in making itself accessible to people.

    Vatican II was intended to make Catholicism more acceptable to people who hated Catholicism.

    Just as Bergoglio was chosen as being the Pope most acceptable to people who hate Catholicism.

    The Catholic Church has been through tough times before but never before has the Church been controlled by people who actively wish to destroy it. The Church can survive a bad Pope. It can't survive a hierarchy dominated by enemies of religion.

    Excuse me. But I have to laugh here. What is it about my comment that contradicts what you just said. My comment was not a criticism. It was an observation. So the term you are having issues with is acceptability over accessibility . . . a minor but not contradictory position that could be included.

    Laugh.

    The Catholic Church by becoming more acceptable became more accessible to more people. I on occasions get caught up in fine details but your objection brings nothing new to the table. My comment does not challenge the length of time Catholics have been around.

    My comment has no bearing directly who was the selected Pope. I would consider that once a non-Catholic noted a pope they found acceptable they might then access Catholic services, dogma, and practice. As no one and mean no one considers the Pope accessible to the common parishioner.

    I think the Church can and will survive its enemies. All of Christianity is or will be coming under assault one day. I am concerned that so much of the Catholic leadership seem to be adopting practices wholly unacceptable to Christ. And I don’t mean the issue of priests being allowed to marry women.

    Given the content and context — my comment is neither nonsense nor out of line with Catholic theology in any way, as little as I know about doctrine. Though I appreciate the opportunity to clarify the comment.

    https://standardbearer.rfpa.org/node/43224

    Read More
    • Replies: @dfordoom

    The Catholic Church by becoming more acceptable became more accessible to more people.
     
    I'm afraid I explained my point rather badly.

    If the objective of Vatican II was to make Catholicism more popular and to gain converts (which is how I interpreted accessible) then it failed dismally.

    My view is that the objective of Vatican II was to make Catholicism acceptable to those who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular, in the vain hope that this would help the Church to survive. In fact of course it did please the Church's enemies but they remained implacable enemies and continued to work towards the extinction of the Church.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    LOL! Yeah - the houris are not from the same species as human beings - they are not the Children of Adam - they are female-like (if you will); they weren't given birth to, and raised as girls, then became women, etc.

    They don't really have a free-will either - their entire purpose is to make the men they were assigned to happy. You could almost consider them not much different than automatons or programmed bioroids, etc.

    None of them will outstrip the actual earthly women who enter Paradise - these will be at the top of the hierarchy; in beauty and everything else.


    So I should hang on to my celibacy
     
    You get the houris and your wife too (assuming she makes the cut with you) and some hadith talk about even getting married to another human female (you know, that may have never been married or maybe her husband didn't make it, etc.).

    So find a good, pious, healthy wife and do what comes naturally...

    Peace.

    None of them will outstrip the actual earthly women who enter Paradise – these will be at the top of the hierarchy; in beauty and everything else.

    So the great reward in heaven you keep drooling over are 72 soulless “female-like” robots who are not even as attractive as human females? Lol. What a silly brainwashed fool. And he has the nerve to call himself a Sufi.

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  • @EliteCommInc.
    Again, I want t keep my comments in context of the issue of faith. The introduction of power political strategic thinking as to colonial practice has some serious breaks in adhering to scripture admonitions of Christ and the apostles.

    Though I think I understand your point.

    I am going to tread lightly in straying from that position in this conversation. Vatican II was intended to make Catholicism more accessible to more people.

    Vatican II was intended to make Catholicism more accessible to more people.

    Nonsense. Catholicism had been around for 2,000 years. It had never had a problem being accessible to people. No religion in history has ever been so spectacularly successful as Catholicism in making itself accessible to people.

    Vatican II was intended to make Catholicism more acceptable to people who hated Catholicism.

    Just as Bergoglio was chosen as being the Pope most acceptable to people who hate Catholicism.

    The Catholic Church has been through tough times before but never before has the Church been controlled by people who actively wish to destroy it. The Church can survive a bad Pope. It can’t survive a hierarchy dominated by enemies of religion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    Excuse me. But I have to laugh here. What is it about my comment that contradicts what you just said. My comment was not a criticism. It was an observation. So the term you are having issues with is acceptability over accessibility . . . a minor but not contradictory position that could be included.

    Laugh.

    The Catholic Church by becoming more acceptable became more accessible to more people. I on occasions get caught up in fine details but your objection brings nothing new to the table. My comment does not challenge the length of time Catholics have been around.

    My comment has no bearing directly who was the selected Pope. I would consider that once a non-Catholic noted a pope they found acceptable they might then access Catholic services, dogma, and practice. As no one and mean no one considers the Pope accessible to the common parishioner.

    I think the Church can and will survive its enemies. All of Christianity is or will be coming under assault one day. I am concerned that so much of the Catholic leadership seem to be adopting practices wholly unacceptable to Christ. And I don't mean the issue of priests being allowed to marry women.

    Given the content and context -- my comment is neither nonsense nor out of line with Catholic theology in any way, as little as I know about doctrine. Though I appreciate the opportunity to clarify the comment.


    https://standardbearer.rfpa.org/node/43224

    , @attilathehen
    You have to understand that the RCC survived for 2000 years because it started in the Caucasian Middle East and flowered in Europe. This is over. The majority of RCCers are now black/Asian. They will never produce the theology, culture created for the first 2000 years. The people who previously tried to destroy the RCC were Caucasians/Europeans. They couldn't because there were other high IQ Caucasians/Europeans who could defend the church. The RCC is not worth saving today because it is a homosexual, multi culti grand lodge. My family has been RCC for hundreds of years. I left (and many others are leaving) because of the non-whites. The RCC is the main promoter of a combination Kalergi-Hooten plan for Europe. The Arians, Pelagians, King Henry VIII, Luther are nothing compared to the destruction low IQ blacks/Asians are bringing to the RCC. I am a post-Vatican II RCCer. I discovered the Latin Mass on my own. No black/Asian can ever carry on these beautiful masses. I've had an idea for several years now that the reason Vatican II was held and the Latin Mass banished was because RCC clergy had a glimpse into the future RCCers - low IQers.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha

    Up until Vatican II, the West, Europeans conquered and ruled the world.
     
    We wuz kaaaangz!!!!

    Actually it’s more like post WW2 after the Europeans went hyper-postal on each other’s cities (often inviting their third world minions to join up in the fray), they didn’t have the wherewithal to hold the enterprises together. India and Pakistan were one of the first to go...then the rest - one by one. Not for lack of trying mind you - the effort to keep Algeria was thoroughly brutal.

    All for the best though, the power dynamics have changed so much. It seems funny to think about it now; but the Netherlands used to control Indonesia. I can’t fathom them even thinking about it now.

    Peace.

    It seems funny to think about it now; but the Netherlands used to control Indonesia. I can’t fathom them even thinking about it now.

    Europeans swing from one extreme to another. The Dutch used to control Indonesia. Now they don’t even want to control their own country. It’s like Europeans are all manic-depressive. They have huge mood swings. One minute they want to give the whole world a great big hug. The next minute they’re wanting to bomb people in countries they’ve barely even heard of. Or they want to destroy themselves by starting another world war.

    European civilisation seems to contain within it a great deal of craziness. Not just craziness, but dangerous psychosis.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    European civilisation seems to contain within it a great deal of craziness. Not just craziness, but dangerous psychosis.
     
    This is very true. Their approach to serious matters seems very strange - at either of two extremes. I mentioned this in other posts:
    "The issue is systemic within the Western framework with hyper-individualism being a major problem and a legal system of one-size-fits-all. The Western approach to its Jewish (or other minorities) community seems to be bipolar; either they are given the keys to the civilizational castle or they are being killed or deported."
    http://www.unz.com/tsaker/a-crash-course-on-the-true-causes-of-anti-semitism/?highlight=bipolar#comment-2025452

    "Why are the options so bipolar; we either 1) have to cuddle and excuse them or 2) we burn anybody that looks like them alive? I thought Britain was a High IQ society; it can’t come up with a reasonable middle-ground solution that’s not lifted from the playbook of Genghiz Khan?"
    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/the-telford-child-sex-scandal-and-the-end-of-england/?highlight=bipolar#comment-2254370

    "Now, Westphalia started to change all that until you get to the point that you have today* – but now you are also complaining that a religious minority has, in effect, got a strangle-hold on the levers of power and is transforming society to your detriment. So which is it? You can’t have it both ways; pat yourself about how open and egalitarian you are and then complain about the consequences – it simply doesn’t make sense. “Look at us – we have three Jews in the Supreme Court!” while “Oh my God – there are three Jews in the Supreme Court!”"
    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/a-good-year-for-israel-and-its-friends/#comment-2125556

    It's completely different than ours which is to give minorities a level of inclusion and enfranchisement but not at a level that is threatening to the over all hierarchy.

    I'm glad you pointed out this peculiar trait in Europeans because I can see it, but can't figure out why such intelligent people can't seem to figure out a middle-path approach to certain things.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    LOL! Yeah - the houris are not from the same species as human beings - they are not the Children of Adam - they are female-like (if you will); they weren't given birth to, and raised as girls, then became women, etc.

    They don't really have a free-will either - their entire purpose is to make the men they were assigned to happy. You could almost consider them not much different than automatons or programmed bioroids, etc.

    None of them will outstrip the actual earthly women who enter Paradise - these will be at the top of the hierarchy; in beauty and everything else.


    So I should hang on to my celibacy
     
    You get the houris and your wife too (assuming she makes the cut with you) and some hadith talk about even getting married to another human female (you know, that may have never been married or maybe her husband didn't make it, etc.).

    So find a good, pious, healthy wife and do what comes naturally...

    Peace.

    Excuse my levity —-

    I am sincerely joshing. I think there are celibate women left in Christianity.

    I had better quit while I am behind. My icetea is waiting.

    Ohhh wait, I missed this —–

    “They don’t really have a free-will either – their entire purpose is to make the men they were assigned to happy. You could almost consider them not much different than automatons or programmed bioroids, etc.”

    Ok enough. A wife with no free will — making a man happy as her entire existence —-

    I hear feminists, well women in general sharpening their knives.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    A wife with no free will — making a man happy as her entire existence
     
    Yup, that’s what these beings are literally made for. Just like the many servants one gets; that’s their entire purpose of existence. They are described as looking human, but they’ never set foot on the Earth.

    Feminists can say whatever they want; it’s not like they get to devise what Paradise looks like - they might not let any men in.

    My wife (who is a convert from a very liberal family in Berkeley) knows about all this and frankly finds it kind of funny what men’s version of Paradise is. It just kind of solidifies for her how vulnerable men are to the charms of women - it’s our number one weakness. To me, I think it’s funny that they are probably looking forward to having a new pair of shoes whenever they feel like - LOL!

    Ustadh Nouman Khan did a funny experiment about it with some teenagers:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IizE7-9udDM

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha

    Just stick to the issue.
     
    Oh - I have totally agreed to you (multiple times already) being able to have your own opinion on definitions and parameters. I support you 100%. I think that's really great and shows a lot of self-confidence! Everything you are saying makes total sense according to the parameters you believe are true - the arguments are 100% airtight!

    I simply haven't seen you respond to my repeated question; why should Muslims care?

    I mean, we haven't really cared what non-Muslims have written about us or allowed them to define our terms for centuries - why would we start now? Do Catholics let non-Catholics define the terms of their doctrine and canon - or do they have internal discussions about it?

    Why do you lie so much?
     
    Super taqiyyah awesomeness - you already know this. That's what Muslims do according to you, remember?
    https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Taqiyya

    As for someone who is looking at this from an academic perspective, they can see if they like your version of things or mine and whichever one of us has more legitimacy:
    Sub-chapter on the term Athar from the chapter "An Introduction to Some Important Hadith Terminologies"
    An Introduction to Hadith: History and Sources

    Looks like wikisilam doesn't have a reference for 'athaar' (which is simply the transliteration of the Arabic broken plural of 'athar').

    Sub-chapter on the term Athar from the chapter “An Introduction to Some Important Hadith Terminologies” An Introduction to Hadith: History and Sources

    Nowhere does it mention “hadith athar”. In fact that combination of words would be absurd based on the above. Try again. Didn’t you claim to be studying “hadith athar” currently?

    In fact, I’m currently studying the Hidayah by Imam Marghinani (ra), a 12th century legal compendium of the Hanafi school, which uses hadith athaar extensively as proofs.

    Why don’t you use the books you claim to be studying to prove you are not bullshitting?

    Looks like wikisilam doesn’t have a reference for ‘athaar’ (which is simply the transliteration of the Arabic broken plural of ‘athar’).

    Lol. So why didn’t you show us what it says about “athar”?

    Btw, still waiting for the hadith that promises you will have “hundreds of thousands” of virgins to screw in heaven. Find it or admit you lied there as well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Yeah homie - you're awesome with your resistance to taqiyyah awesomeness!

    http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/7b/7b24a988c727db73bcf705a55cb98fa0055ba9a7f131280f3a158238887f0103.jpg

    I'll do you a favor...

    Hey everybody - stay away from the taqiyyah Muzzie troll named Talha because he is a filthy liar and he smells bad.

    Page 364, Vol 1
    https://archive.org/stream/AlHidayahVol1AlBushra#page/n363/mode/2up

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @EliteCommInc.
    Uhhh,


    Just curious so if I become a Muslim -- when I pass -- I get the virgin that was nonexistent when I was alive --- tempting. So I should hang on to my celibacy --- there's hope yet.


    Just being silly . . .

    LOL! Yeah – the houris are not from the same species as human beings – they are not the Children of Adam – they are female-like (if you will); they weren’t given birth to, and raised as girls, then became women, etc.

    They don’t really have a free-will either – their entire purpose is to make the men they were assigned to happy. You could almost consider them not much different than automatons or programmed bioroids, etc.

    None of them will outstrip the actual earthly women who enter Paradise – these will be at the top of the hierarchy; in beauty and everything else.

    So I should hang on to my celibacy

    You get the houris and your wife too (assuming she makes the cut with you) and some hadith talk about even getting married to another human female (you know, that may have never been married or maybe her husband didn’t make it, etc.).

    So find a good, pious, healthy wife and do what comes naturally…

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    Excuse my levity ----

    I am sincerely joshing. I think there are celibate women left in Christianity.

    I had better quit while I am behind. My icetea is waiting.


    Ohhh wait, I missed this -----

    "They don’t really have a free-will either – their entire purpose is to make the men they were assigned to happy. You could almost consider them not much different than automatons or programmed bioroids, etc."

    Ok enough. A wife with no free will --- making a man happy as her entire existence ----

    I hear feminists, well women in general sharpening their knives.

    , @Bliss

    None of them will outstrip the actual earthly women who enter Paradise – these will be at the top of the hierarchy; in beauty and everything else.
     
    So the great reward in heaven you keep drooling over are 72 soulless “female-like” robots who are not even as attractive as human females? Lol. What a silly brainwashed fool. And he has the nerve to call himself a Sufi.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • As to the reference, I have never considered Egypt anything but an African state. How dark their skin color may be at issue. But I am at a loss why there’s a rag a muffin hoopla about it.

    Interesting — not interested in traveling down that road on the issue of hell.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha

    even among some mainstrean scientists
     
    Yeah, I think either Watson or Krick thought life was seeded from another planet. I can see their dilemma; the human being and life itself is quite "magical" and so complex - it totally goes against the entropy principle in thermodynamics (which they try to get out of by appealing to the idea that the sun-provided energy makes up for the anomaly that a lifeless planet would eventually result in producing the city of Berlin):
    https://www.ted.com/talks/alexander_tsiaras_conception_to_birth_visualized

    I like how some don't mind positing that aliens could have seeded this planet but if God inserted the current model of hominid called Adam (pbuh) and his children - howls of laughter ensue. Whatever...

    We wuz kangz...
    http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-wuz-kings

    Peace.

    Uhhh,

    Just curious so if I become a Muslim — when I pass — I get the virgin that was nonexistent when I was alive — tempting. So I should hang on to my celibacy — there’s hope yet.

    Just being silly . . .

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    LOL! Yeah - the houris are not from the same species as human beings - they are not the Children of Adam - they are female-like (if you will); they weren't given birth to, and raised as girls, then became women, etc.

    They don't really have a free-will either - their entire purpose is to make the men they were assigned to happy. You could almost consider them not much different than automatons or programmed bioroids, etc.

    None of them will outstrip the actual earthly women who enter Paradise - these will be at the top of the hierarchy; in beauty and everything else.


    So I should hang on to my celibacy
     
    You get the houris and your wife too (assuming she makes the cut with you) and some hadith talk about even getting married to another human female (you know, that may have never been married or maybe her husband didn't make it, etc.).

    So find a good, pious, healthy wife and do what comes naturally...

    Peace.

    , @attilathehen
    What a cuck. You prove my point once again.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @EliteCommInc.
    this theory has become increasingly acceptable even among some mainstrean scientists and thinkers.


    I was a huge UFO reader when I was a kid. I have to admit that the issue still intrigues me. Ancient Aliens, alien DNA manipulation, alien abductions, etc. I listen with a very serious ear. What any of it means to faith and practice is a tricky matter, sometimes.


    But of this I am convinced, if an alien lands on this planet preaching another gospel -- I have no intention of listening -- regardless of their IQ.

    As for this,

    “We wuz alien kaaangz!”

    despite looking it up. I have n o idea what you are talking or referencing something about ancient kings or royal symbology -- the phrase is lost on me.

    even among some mainstrean scientists

    Yeah, I think either Watson or Krick thought life was seeded from another planet. I can see their dilemma; the human being and life itself is quite “magical” and so complex – it totally goes against the entropy principle in thermodynamics (which they try to get out of by appealing to the idea that the sun-provided energy makes up for the anomaly that a lifeless planet would eventually result in producing the city of Berlin):

    https://www.ted.com/talks/alexander_tsiaras_conception_to_birth_visualized

    I like how some don’t mind positing that aliens could have seeded this planet but if God inserted the current model of hominid called Adam (pbuh) and his children – howls of laughter ensue. Whatever…

    We wuz kangz…

    http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-wuz-kings

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    Uhhh,


    Just curious so if I become a Muslim -- when I pass -- I get the virgin that was nonexistent when I was alive --- tempting. So I should hang on to my celibacy --- there's hope yet.


    Just being silly . . .
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    You've done a great job trying to keep the conversation on point. My comment was more tongue-in-cheek.

    I just see a lot of parallels between White nationalists and Black nationalists about past glory in the "we wuz kangz" methodology. They love making stuff up and speculating.

    On another thread, a guy was talking about how some Hungarian nationalists claim that specifically they are actually descended from a different species that was seeded from a distant planet.

    "We wuz alien kaaangz!"

    Peace.

    this theory has become increasingly acceptable even among some mainstrean scientists and thinkers.

    I was a huge UFO reader when I was a kid. I have to admit that the issue still intrigues me. Ancient Aliens, alien DNA manipulation, alien abductions, etc. I listen with a very serious ear. What any of it means to faith and practice is a tricky matter, sometimes.

    But of this I am convinced, if an alien lands on this planet preaching another gospel — I have no intention of listening — regardless of their IQ.

    As for this,

    “We wuz alien kaaangz!”

    despite looking it up. I have n o idea what you are talking or referencing something about ancient kings or royal symbology — the phrase is lost on me.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    even among some mainstrean scientists
     
    Yeah, I think either Watson or Krick thought life was seeded from another planet. I can see their dilemma; the human being and life itself is quite "magical" and so complex - it totally goes against the entropy principle in thermodynamics (which they try to get out of by appealing to the idea that the sun-provided energy makes up for the anomaly that a lifeless planet would eventually result in producing the city of Berlin):
    https://www.ted.com/talks/alexander_tsiaras_conception_to_birth_visualized

    I like how some don't mind positing that aliens could have seeded this planet but if God inserted the current model of hominid called Adam (pbuh) and his children - howls of laughter ensue. Whatever...

    We wuz kangz...
    http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-wuz-kings

    Peace.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bliss
    You waste a lot of time and energy on whining. Just stick to the issue.

    I call you a liar only when I find you willfully lying (which is too often). Why do you lie so much?

    Just stick to the issue.

    Oh – I have totally agreed to you (multiple times already) being able to have your own opinion on definitions and parameters. I support you 100%. I think that’s really great and shows a lot of self-confidence! Everything you are saying makes total sense according to the parameters you believe are true – the arguments are 100% airtight!

    I simply haven’t seen you respond to my repeated question; why should Muslims care?

    I mean, we haven’t really cared what non-Muslims have written about us or allowed them to define our terms for centuries – why would we start now? Do Catholics let non-Catholics define the terms of their doctrine and canon – or do they have internal discussions about it?

    Why do you lie so much?

    Super taqiyyah awesomeness – you already know this. That’s what Muslims do according to you, remember?

    https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Taqiyya

    As for someone who is looking at this from an academic perspective, they can see if they like your version of things or mine and whichever one of us has more legitimacy:
    Sub-chapter on the term Athar from the chapter “An Introduction to Some Important Hadith Terminologies”
    An Introduction to Hadith: History and Sources

    Looks like wikisilam doesn’t have a reference for ‘athaar’ (which is simply the transliteration of the Arabic broken plural of ‘athar’).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bliss

    Sub-chapter on the term Athar from the chapter “An Introduction to Some Important Hadith Terminologies” An Introduction to Hadith: History and Sources
     
    Nowhere does it mention “hadith athar”. In fact that combination of words would be absurd based on the above. Try again. Didn’t you claim to be studying “hadith athar” currently?

    In fact, I’m currently studying the Hidayah by Imam Marghinani (ra), a 12th century legal compendium of the Hanafi school, which uses hadith athaar extensively as proofs.
     
    Why don’t you use the books you claim to be studying to prove you are not bullshitting?

    Looks like wikisilam doesn’t have a reference for ‘athaar’ (which is simply the transliteration of the Arabic broken plural of ‘athar’).
     
    Lol. So why didn’t you show us what it says about “athar”?

    Btw, still waiting for the hadith that promises you will have “hundreds of thousands” of virgins to screw in heaven. Find it or admit you lied there as well.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • You waste a lot of time and energy on whining. Just stick to the issue.

    I call you a liar only when I find you willfully lying (which is too often). Why do you lie so much?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Just stick to the issue.
     
    Oh - I have totally agreed to you (multiple times already) being able to have your own opinion on definitions and parameters. I support you 100%. I think that's really great and shows a lot of self-confidence! Everything you are saying makes total sense according to the parameters you believe are true - the arguments are 100% airtight!

    I simply haven't seen you respond to my repeated question; why should Muslims care?

    I mean, we haven't really cared what non-Muslims have written about us or allowed them to define our terms for centuries - why would we start now? Do Catholics let non-Catholics define the terms of their doctrine and canon - or do they have internal discussions about it?

    Why do you lie so much?
     
    Super taqiyyah awesomeness - you already know this. That's what Muslims do according to you, remember?
    https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Taqiyya

    As for someone who is looking at this from an academic perspective, they can see if they like your version of things or mine and whichever one of us has more legitimacy:
    Sub-chapter on the term Athar from the chapter "An Introduction to Some Important Hadith Terminologies"
    An Introduction to Hadith: History and Sources

    Looks like wikisilam doesn't have a reference for 'athaar' (which is simply the transliteration of the Arabic broken plural of 'athar').
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @EliteCommInc.
    Again, I want t keep my comments in context of the issue of faith. The introduction of power political strategic thinking as to colonial practice has some serious breaks in adhering to scripture admonitions of Christ and the apostles.

    Though I think I understand your point.

    I am going to tread lightly in straying from that position in this conversation. Vatican II was intended to make Catholicism more accessible to more people.

    You’ve done a great job trying to keep the conversation on point. My comment was more tongue-in-cheek.

    I just see a lot of parallels between White nationalists and Black nationalists about past glory in the “we wuz kangz” methodology. They love making stuff up and speculating.

    On another thread, a guy was talking about how some Hungarian nationalists claim that specifically they are actually descended from a different species that was seeded from a distant planet.

    “We wuz alien kaaangz!”

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    this theory has become increasingly acceptable even among some mainstrean scientists and thinkers.


    I was a huge UFO reader when I was a kid. I have to admit that the issue still intrigues me. Ancient Aliens, alien DNA manipulation, alien abductions, etc. I listen with a very serious ear. What any of it means to faith and practice is a tricky matter, sometimes.


    But of this I am convinced, if an alien lands on this planet preaching another gospel -- I have no intention of listening -- regardless of their IQ.

    As for this,

    “We wuz alien kaaangz!”

    despite looking it up. I have n o idea what you are talking or referencing something about ancient kings or royal symbology -- the phrase is lost on me.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bliss

    OK – so you don’t accept the validity of the sayings of Companions (ra), which we call hadith athaar –
     
    There is no such thing as “hadith athaar”, you loathsome liar.

    And the sayings of Mohammad’s companions are not considered Ḥadīth.

    Thanks. Again – I really, really appreciate you chiming in on why you think “Sufism” is not part of Islam, why Salafi-Wahhabi interpretation is “the True Islam”, why all Sufi-Scholars were doing taqiyyah to protect their lives, why we think Allah lives inside the Kaabah, why we don’t understand our own tradition, why we should care about the opinions of Orientalists, how you’ve discovered verses and hadith that our scholars never came across, etc.

    I think it’s great you have all these opinions and are so enthusiastic to teach me what correct Islam is.

    It’s very quaint (reminds me of White Man’s Burden and such) and actually kind of cute (pith helmets!!!).

    you loathsome liar

    Oh and the many insults on top of it are simply the creme in the coffee…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bliss

    I don’t see how an afterlife that assumes one’s true existence as a spirit (in whichever modality of shape or body it is given) or the beatific vision of God…can be considered materialist.
     
    Is true existence spiritual or material? If it is spiritual why does it have to be attached to the body for all eternity?

    Secondly, it is absurd to say that muslims can see the formless Allah with their resurrected material eyes. Btw, it is also absurd to think that the formless Allah lives in a small house, the Kaaba. Does that make sense to you?

    And Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra) – through whom all tariqahs, save one, trace their chain – stated; “People are asleep…when they die, they will awaken.”
     
    You are just confirming yet again that Sufism is not true Islam, which is based on the Quran and Sunnah, not on some made up quotes from Ali. Who was the last Messenger of Allah, Mohammad or Ali?

    Hey, if that’s someone’s idea of Paradise – who am I to stop him? It is of course…Paradise, anyone can have what they want.
     
    “Someone’s idea of Paradise”? You lying fraud, as if you don’t know that is your Last Prophet’s idea of Paradise. Do you really think you can have more than the 72 virgins promised by Mohammad to fornicate with if you wanted? Show us where you learned that.

    A true Sufi, which you obviously are not, does not believe the Prophet’s promise of 72 virgins with big black eyes and big round breasts that you are so looking forward to. True Sufis seek Oneness in God:

    I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God.
     
    (Rumi)

    I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God. (Rumi)

    Jesus: Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me (John 14:11)

    See the similarity? That is Oneness Of Being.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha

    Is true existence spiritual or material?
     
    It depends on the stage. Before being entered into our current realm, we existed in the Alam al-Arwah (the Spirit world), then our spirits were infused into an earthly shell which we will eventually discard and spend time in the Alam al-Barzakh until time for Resurrection, Judgement and then having our spirits infused into some form or shell, the modality of which is not 100% defined, for the rest of eternity.

    If it is spiritual why does it have to be attached to the body for all eternity?
     
    Has nothing to do with "has to" any more than the spirit "has to" be infused into an earthly shell temporarily. God does what he wills.

    it is absurd to say that muslims can see the formless Allah with their resurrected material eyes.
     
    So you didn't read through the material at the link by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani. I didn't think you would, but thanks for the confirmation.

    it is also absurd to think that the formless Allah lives in a small house, the Kaaba.
     
    Very absurd.

    Does that make sense to you?
     
    Nope - which is why no Muslim thinks God actually lives in the Kaabah. But I support you thinking we do - again, 100%. You do you!

    that Sufism is not true Islam
     
    I already confirmed 100% support for your definition of "Sufism" to be mutually exclusive from Islam.

    some made up quotes from Ali
     
    OK - so you don't accept the validity of the sayings of Companions (ra), which we call hadith athaar - especially the Rashidun Caliphs (ra) - as a valid source of deriving advice or law. The Four Sunni schools have never had a problem with it. In fact, I'm currently studying the Hidayah by Imam Marghinani (ra), a 12th century legal compendium of the Hanafi school, which uses hadith athaar extensively as proofs. You are welcome to reject hadith athaar or any other hadith for that matter. Again, we should care because...?

    Do you really think you can have more than the 72 virgins
     
    Some hadith mention 72, some 2, some 73, some 100...Imam Ghazali (ra) references two that mention 500 and a few hundred thousand. I don't know of a single scholar that fixed an exact number and said; no more, no less. Since the scholars have always interpreted the textual sources keeping this overarching theme in mind:
    "And you will have therein whatever your souls desire, and you will have therein whatever you request" (41:31)

    But again, I 100% support you interpreting hadith however you want, I just fail to see why Muslims should care.


    fornicate with
     
    Does not compute:
    "So it will be. We shall wed them to maidens with beautiful eyes." (44:54)

    A true Sufi, which you obviously are not
     
    Man, beat that dead horse - you go girl!

    (Rumi)
     
    I have been quite fascinated how Orientalists and Westerners have managed to turn a medieval Hanafi jurist, the Mufti of Konya - no less - into a perennialist hippy. That's OK - again, I totally support your right to define him as you feelz...and we should care, why?
    "The Erasure of Islam from the Poetry of Rumi"
    https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-erasure-of-islam-from-the-poetry-of-rumi

    "I am the servant of the Qur'ân [man banda-yi qur'ân-am] as long as I have life. I am the dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen one [muhammad-e mukhtâr]. If anyone quotes anything except this from my sayings, I am quit of him and outraged by these words." - Maulana Rumi (ra)
    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/western_views.html

    Now, I'm going to take my own advice and ignore any further posts from you, so feel free to waste your time in responding if you wish.

    Note: For anyone seriously interested in the subject, the above site is a great resource on his personage and accurate translations of his works (as opposed to Deepak Chopra [LOL!] or something). It is under the aegis of the institute in Turkey that is dedicated to preserving the legacy of Mawlana Rumi (ra):
    "The Institute is affiliated with the International Hazrat-i Mevlânâ Foundation, in Istanbul, Turkey. The president of the Foundation is the hereditary and actual world leader of the Mevlevi order--the 33rd Chelebi Efendi, Faruk Hemdem Chelebi, the 22nd generation great-grandson of Hazrat-i Mevlânâ Jalâluddîn Rûmî."
    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/about_dar_al_masnavi.html
     

    OK – so you don’t accept the validity of the sayings of Companions (ra), which we call hadith athaar –

    There is no such thing as “hadith athaar”, you loathsome liar.

    And the sayings of Mohammad’s companions are not considered Ḥadīth.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Thanks. Again - I really, really appreciate you chiming in on why you think "Sufism" is not part of Islam, why Salafi-Wahhabi interpretation is "the True Islam", why all Sufi-Scholars were doing taqiyyah to protect their lives, why we think Allah lives inside the Kaabah, why we don't understand our own tradition, why we should care about the opinions of Orientalists, how you've discovered verses and hadith that our scholars never came across, etc.

    I think it's great you have all these opinions and are so enthusiastic to teach me what correct Islam is.

    It's very quaint (reminds me of White Man's Burden and such) and actually kind of cute (pith helmets!!!).

    you loathsome liar
     
    Oh and the many insults on top of it are simply the creme in the coffee...
    https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/64447318/please-do-go-on.jpg
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha

    Up until Vatican II, the West, Europeans conquered and ruled the world.
     
    We wuz kaaaangz!!!!

    Actually it’s more like post WW2 after the Europeans went hyper-postal on each other’s cities (often inviting their third world minions to join up in the fray), they didn’t have the wherewithal to hold the enterprises together. India and Pakistan were one of the first to go...then the rest - one by one. Not for lack of trying mind you - the effort to keep Algeria was thoroughly brutal.

    All for the best though, the power dynamics have changed so much. It seems funny to think about it now; but the Netherlands used to control Indonesia. I can’t fathom them even thinking about it now.

    Peace.

    Again, I want t keep my comments in context of the issue of faith. The introduction of power political strategic thinking as to colonial practice has some serious breaks in adhering to scripture admonitions of Christ and the apostles.

    Though I think I understand your point.

    I am going to tread lightly in straying from that position in this conversation. Vatican II was intended to make Catholicism more accessible to more people.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    You've done a great job trying to keep the conversation on point. My comment was more tongue-in-cheek.

    I just see a lot of parallels between White nationalists and Black nationalists about past glory in the "we wuz kangz" methodology. They love making stuff up and speculating.

    On another thread, a guy was talking about how some Hungarian nationalists claim that specifically they are actually descended from a different species that was seeded from a distant planet.

    "We wuz alien kaaangz!"

    Peace.
    , @dfordoom

    Vatican II was intended to make Catholicism more accessible to more people.
     
    Nonsense. Catholicism had been around for 2,000 years. It had never had a problem being accessible to people. No religion in history has ever been so spectacularly successful as Catholicism in making itself accessible to people.

    Vatican II was intended to make Catholicism more acceptable to people who hated Catholicism.

    Just as Bergoglio was chosen as being the Pope most acceptable to people who hate Catholicism.

    The Catholic Church has been through tough times before but never before has the Church been controlled by people who actively wish to destroy it. The Church can survive a bad Pope. It can't survive a hierarchy dominated by enemies of religion.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha

    Is true existence spiritual or material?
     
    It depends on the stage. Before being entered into our current realm, we existed in the Alam al-Arwah (the Spirit world), then our spirits were infused into an earthly shell which we will eventually discard and spend time in the Alam al-Barzakh until time for Resurrection, Judgement and then having our spirits infused into some form or shell, the modality of which is not 100% defined, for the rest of eternity.

    If it is spiritual why does it have to be attached to the body for all eternity?
     
    Has nothing to do with "has to" any more than the spirit "has to" be infused into an earthly shell temporarily. God does what he wills.

    it is absurd to say that muslims can see the formless Allah with their resurrected material eyes.
     
    So you didn't read through the material at the link by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani. I didn't think you would, but thanks for the confirmation.

    it is also absurd to think that the formless Allah lives in a small house, the Kaaba.
     
    Very absurd.

    Does that make sense to you?
     
    Nope - which is why no Muslim thinks God actually lives in the Kaabah. But I support you thinking we do - again, 100%. You do you!

    that Sufism is not true Islam
     
    I already confirmed 100% support for your definition of "Sufism" to be mutually exclusive from Islam.

    some made up quotes from Ali
     
    OK - so you don't accept the validity of the sayings of Companions (ra), which we call hadith athaar - especially the Rashidun Caliphs (ra) - as a valid source of deriving advice or law. The Four Sunni schools have never had a problem with it. In fact, I'm currently studying the Hidayah by Imam Marghinani (ra), a 12th century legal compendium of the Hanafi school, which uses hadith athaar extensively as proofs. You are welcome to reject hadith athaar or any other hadith for that matter. Again, we should care because...?

    Do you really think you can have more than the 72 virgins
     
    Some hadith mention 72, some 2, some 73, some 100...Imam Ghazali (ra) references two that mention 500 and a few hundred thousand. I don't know of a single scholar that fixed an exact number and said; no more, no less. Since the scholars have always interpreted the textual sources keeping this overarching theme in mind:
    "And you will have therein whatever your souls desire, and you will have therein whatever you request" (41:31)

    But again, I 100% support you interpreting hadith however you want, I just fail to see why Muslims should care.


    fornicate with
     
    Does not compute:
    "So it will be. We shall wed them to maidens with beautiful eyes." (44:54)

    A true Sufi, which you obviously are not
     
    Man, beat that dead horse - you go girl!

    (Rumi)
     
    I have been quite fascinated how Orientalists and Westerners have managed to turn a medieval Hanafi jurist, the Mufti of Konya - no less - into a perennialist hippy. That's OK - again, I totally support your right to define him as you feelz...and we should care, why?
    "The Erasure of Islam from the Poetry of Rumi"
    https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-erasure-of-islam-from-the-poetry-of-rumi

    "I am the servant of the Qur'ân [man banda-yi qur'ân-am] as long as I have life. I am the dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen one [muhammad-e mukhtâr]. If anyone quotes anything except this from my sayings, I am quit of him and outraged by these words." - Maulana Rumi (ra)
    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/western_views.html

    Now, I'm going to take my own advice and ignore any further posts from you, so feel free to waste your time in responding if you wish.

    Note: For anyone seriously interested in the subject, the above site is a great resource on his personage and accurate translations of his works (as opposed to Deepak Chopra [LOL!] or something). It is under the aegis of the institute in Turkey that is dedicated to preserving the legacy of Mawlana Rumi (ra):
    "The Institute is affiliated with the International Hazrat-i Mevlânâ Foundation, in Istanbul, Turkey. The president of the Foundation is the hereditary and actual world leader of the Mevlevi order--the 33rd Chelebi Efendi, Faruk Hemdem Chelebi, the 22nd generation great-grandson of Hazrat-i Mevlânâ Jalâluddîn Rûmî."
    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/about_dar_al_masnavi.html
     

    It depends on the stage.

    As if there is any stage that can be compared to the eternal stage, the afterlife in heaven or hell. Where your material body experiences pleasure or pain for ever and ever. That is the teaching of Islam. But not of Sufism.

    Nope – which is why no Muslim thinks God actually lives in the Kaabah.

    It sure looks like it. Why else would they call it the “House of Allah”? Why would they pray facing only in that direction? Why would they chant “Here I am Allah, here I am” when they reach the Kaaba in pilgrimage and circle around it? Why would they consider prostrating towards any other direction in God’s Creation as worshipping a false god? Etc

    Some hadith mention 72, some 2, some 73, some 100…Imam Ghazali (ra) references two that mention 500 and a few hundred thousand.

    Plenty hadith here that confirm the 72 number:

    https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Authenticity_of_72_Virgins_Hadith

    Now show us the Hadith that promises a few hundred thousand.

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  • @Talha

    Is true existence spiritual or material?
     
    It depends on the stage. Before being entered into our current realm, we existed in the Alam al-Arwah (the Spirit world), then our spirits were infused into an earthly shell which we will eventually discard and spend time in the Alam al-Barzakh until time for Resurrection, Judgement and then having our spirits infused into some form or shell, the modality of which is not 100% defined, for the rest of eternity.

    If it is spiritual why does it have to be attached to the body for all eternity?
     
    Has nothing to do with "has to" any more than the spirit "has to" be infused into an earthly shell temporarily. God does what he wills.

    it is absurd to say that muslims can see the formless Allah with their resurrected material eyes.
     
    So you didn't read through the material at the link by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani. I didn't think you would, but thanks for the confirmation.

    it is also absurd to think that the formless Allah lives in a small house, the Kaaba.
     
    Very absurd.

    Does that make sense to you?
     
    Nope - which is why no Muslim thinks God actually lives in the Kaabah. But I support you thinking we do - again, 100%. You do you!

    that Sufism is not true Islam
     
    I already confirmed 100% support for your definition of "Sufism" to be mutually exclusive from Islam.

    some made up quotes from Ali
     
    OK - so you don't accept the validity of the sayings of Companions (ra), which we call hadith athaar - especially the Rashidun Caliphs (ra) - as a valid source of deriving advice or law. The Four Sunni schools have never had a problem with it. In fact, I'm currently studying the Hidayah by Imam Marghinani (ra), a 12th century legal compendium of the Hanafi school, which uses hadith athaar extensively as proofs. You are welcome to reject hadith athaar or any other hadith for that matter. Again, we should care because...?

    Do you really think you can have more than the 72 virgins
     
    Some hadith mention 72, some 2, some 73, some 100...Imam Ghazali (ra) references two that mention 500 and a few hundred thousand. I don't know of a single scholar that fixed an exact number and said; no more, no less. Since the scholars have always interpreted the textual sources keeping this overarching theme in mind:
    "And you will have therein whatever your souls desire, and you will have therein whatever you request" (41:31)

    But again, I 100% support you interpreting hadith however you want, I just fail to see why Muslims should care.


    fornicate with
     
    Does not compute:
    "So it will be. We shall wed them to maidens with beautiful eyes." (44:54)

    A true Sufi, which you obviously are not
     
    Man, beat that dead horse - you go girl!

    (Rumi)
     
    I have been quite fascinated how Orientalists and Westerners have managed to turn a medieval Hanafi jurist, the Mufti of Konya - no less - into a perennialist hippy. That's OK - again, I totally support your right to define him as you feelz...and we should care, why?
    "The Erasure of Islam from the Poetry of Rumi"
    https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-erasure-of-islam-from-the-poetry-of-rumi

    "I am the servant of the Qur'ân [man banda-yi qur'ân-am] as long as I have life. I am the dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen one [muhammad-e mukhtâr]. If anyone quotes anything except this from my sayings, I am quit of him and outraged by these words." - Maulana Rumi (ra)
    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/western_views.html

    Now, I'm going to take my own advice and ignore any further posts from you, so feel free to waste your time in responding if you wish.

    Note: For anyone seriously interested in the subject, the above site is a great resource on his personage and accurate translations of his works (as opposed to Deepak Chopra [LOL!] or something). It is under the aegis of the institute in Turkey that is dedicated to preserving the legacy of Mawlana Rumi (ra):
    "The Institute is affiliated with the International Hazrat-i Mevlânâ Foundation, in Istanbul, Turkey. The president of the Foundation is the hereditary and actual world leader of the Mevlevi order--the 33rd Chelebi Efendi, Faruk Hemdem Chelebi, the 22nd generation great-grandson of Hazrat-i Mevlânâ Jalâluddîn Rûmî."
    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/about_dar_al_masnavi.html
     

    Any objective observer can see that Sufism has little if anything to do with the Quran or the beliefs and practices of the Prophet Mohammad. That includes western scholars, New Age types, free-thinking Sufis and (most importantly and dangerously for the Sufis) the muslims who practice the Islam of Mohammad.

    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/western_views.html

    During most of the past two hundred years, however, Western scholars (sometimes called Orientalists) have not viewed sufism as something largely inspired by the Qur’ân and Traditions [Ahâdîth]. Instead, they have tended to view sufism as imported from other religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Neoplatonism, Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, or Buddhism. Here is an example from an Orientalist who translated some of the poems of Hâfiz from Persian in 1897: “Hafiz belonged to the great sect from which so many of the most famous among Persian writers have sprung. Like Sa’di and Jami and Jelaleddin Rumi and a score of others, he was a Sufi. The history of Sufiism has yet to be written, the sources from which it arose are uncertain, and that it should have found a home in Mahommadanism, the least mystical of all religions, is still unexplained. Some have supposed that Sufiism was imported from India after the time of Mahommad….A third theory is that the origins of Sufiism are to be looked for in the philosophy of the Greeks, strangely distorted by the Eastern mind, and in the influence of Christianity…”1

    The popularization of sufism in the West followed this same pattern (first in Europe and then in America) starting in 1910 through a sufi musician and spiritual teacher from India, `Inâyat Khân, who taught that sufism is a form of universal mysticism with no real dependence upon Islam. Westerners were encouraged that they could learn sufi wisdom and do sufi spiritual practices without changing religions or becoming involved with Muslim ritual prayers and Muslim religious authorities.

    And here’s the justification of the link’s author:

    Sufis follow the Tradition that the Holy Qur’ân has an outward meaning and up to seven inner meanings [ilà sab`ati abTun], with the understanding that these meanings should not contradict the spirit of the outward or plain meaning.

    Note how he had conveniently neglected to mention that Salafi/orthodox muslims also agree that Sufism is not based on the Islam taught by Mohammad. Why? Because he would be unable to defend his claim of “seven inner meanings” in the Quran against their accusations of innovation and heresy.

    Nowhere does the Quran or Hadith teach that it has 7 hidden meanings. Quite the opposite:

    This day I have perfected your religion for you (Surat al-Maidah)

    You have an excellent model in the Messenger of Allah (Surat al-Ahzab)

    If anyone opposes the Messenger…and follows a path other than that of the believers…We will roast him in Hell. (Surat an-Nisa:115)

    The most evil affairs are the innovations and every innovation is an error (Sahih Muslim 1885)

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  • @Talha

    Is true existence spiritual or material?
     
    It depends on the stage. Before being entered into our current realm, we existed in the Alam al-Arwah (the Spirit world), then our spirits were infused into an earthly shell which we will eventually discard and spend time in the Alam al-Barzakh until time for Resurrection, Judgement and then having our spirits infused into some form or shell, the modality of which is not 100% defined, for the rest of eternity.

    If it is spiritual why does it have to be attached to the body for all eternity?
     
    Has nothing to do with "has to" any more than the spirit "has to" be infused into an earthly shell temporarily. God does what he wills.

    it is absurd to say that muslims can see the formless Allah with their resurrected material eyes.
     
    So you didn't read through the material at the link by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani. I didn't think you would, but thanks for the confirmation.

    it is also absurd to think that the formless Allah lives in a small house, the Kaaba.
     
    Very absurd.

    Does that make sense to you?
     
    Nope - which is why no Muslim thinks God actually lives in the Kaabah. But I support you thinking we do - again, 100%. You do you!

    that Sufism is not true Islam
     
    I already confirmed 100% support for your definition of "Sufism" to be mutually exclusive from Islam.

    some made up quotes from Ali
     
    OK - so you don't accept the validity of the sayings of Companions (ra), which we call hadith athaar - especially the Rashidun Caliphs (ra) - as a valid source of deriving advice or law. The Four Sunni schools have never had a problem with it. In fact, I'm currently studying the Hidayah by Imam Marghinani (ra), a 12th century legal compendium of the Hanafi school, which uses hadith athaar extensively as proofs. You are welcome to reject hadith athaar or any other hadith for that matter. Again, we should care because...?

    Do you really think you can have more than the 72 virgins
     
    Some hadith mention 72, some 2, some 73, some 100...Imam Ghazali (ra) references two that mention 500 and a few hundred thousand. I don't know of a single scholar that fixed an exact number and said; no more, no less. Since the scholars have always interpreted the textual sources keeping this overarching theme in mind:
    "And you will have therein whatever your souls desire, and you will have therein whatever you request" (41:31)

    But again, I 100% support you interpreting hadith however you want, I just fail to see why Muslims should care.


    fornicate with
     
    Does not compute:
    "So it will be. We shall wed them to maidens with beautiful eyes." (44:54)

    A true Sufi, which you obviously are not
     
    Man, beat that dead horse - you go girl!

    (Rumi)
     
    I have been quite fascinated how Orientalists and Westerners have managed to turn a medieval Hanafi jurist, the Mufti of Konya - no less - into a perennialist hippy. That's OK - again, I totally support your right to define him as you feelz...and we should care, why?
    "The Erasure of Islam from the Poetry of Rumi"
    https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-erasure-of-islam-from-the-poetry-of-rumi

    "I am the servant of the Qur'ân [man banda-yi qur'ân-am] as long as I have life. I am the dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen one [muhammad-e mukhtâr]. If anyone quotes anything except this from my sayings, I am quit of him and outraged by these words." - Maulana Rumi (ra)
    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/western_views.html

    Now, I'm going to take my own advice and ignore any further posts from you, so feel free to waste your time in responding if you wish.

    Note: For anyone seriously interested in the subject, the above site is a great resource on his personage and accurate translations of his works (as opposed to Deepak Chopra [LOL!] or something). It is under the aegis of the institute in Turkey that is dedicated to preserving the legacy of Mawlana Rumi (ra):
    "The Institute is affiliated with the International Hazrat-i Mevlânâ Foundation, in Istanbul, Turkey. The president of the Foundation is the hereditary and actual world leader of the Mevlevi order--the 33rd Chelebi Efendi, Faruk Hemdem Chelebi, the 22nd generation great-grandson of Hazrat-i Mevlânâ Jalâluddîn Rûmî."
    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/about_dar_al_masnavi.html
     

    “I am the servant of the Qur’ân [man banda-yi qur'ân-am] as long as I have life. I am the dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen one [muhammad-e mukhtâr]. If anyone quotes anything except this from my sayings, I am quit of him and outraged by these words.” – Maulana Rumi (ra)

    Lol. To paraphrase Shakespeare, “The Sufi doth protest too much, methinks”.

    Rumi is obviously trying to protect himself and his disciples from the fate that befell the Sufi martyr Mansur Hallaj. That he had to defend himself like this shows that he must have been accused of heresy by some orthodox muslims.

    Do you really think Rumi’s whirling dervishes are following the example of Mohammad? What did Mohammad say about music? Do the Quran and Sunnah teach Oneness of Being?

    The dichotomy between Sufis and the followers of Mohammad is starkly highlighted by the fact that Hallaj is a martyr to the Sufis and an apostate who deserved torture and death to the true muslims.

    Rumi on Hallaj:

    [MORE]

    Hallaj said what he said and went to the origin
    through the hole in the scaffold.

    I cut a cap’s worth of cloth from his robe,
    and it swamped over me from head to foot.

    This is how Hallaj said, I am God,
    and told the truth!

    The ruby and the sunrise are one.
    Be courageous and discipline yourself.

    Completely become hearing and ear,
    and wear this sun-ruby as an earring.

    Work. Keep digging your well.
    Don’t think about getting off from work.
    Water is there somewhere.

    Submit to a daily practice.
    Your loyalty to that
    is a ring on the door.

    Keep knocking, and the joy inside
    will eventually open a window
    and look out to see who’s there.

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  • @EliteCommInc.
    I agree that it was a dicey proposition for people of faith to incorporate regional beliefs as a means of explaining Christ -- but I am never required to adopt them as my own. This method of helping to explain salvation and God in christain faith was practiced among the Galics, Romans, Anglo Saxons, vikings, etc.

    In fact, scripture makes it clear I should not do so.

    Up until Vatican II, the West, Europeans conquered and ruled the world.

    We wuz kaaaangz!!!!

    Actually it’s more like post WW2 after the Europeans went hyper-postal on each other’s cities (often inviting their third world minions to join up in the fray), they didn’t have the wherewithal to hold the enterprises together. India and Pakistan were one of the first to go…then the rest – one by one. Not for lack of trying mind you – the effort to keep Algeria was thoroughly brutal.

    All for the best though, the power dynamics have changed so much. It seems funny to think about it now; but the Netherlands used to control Indonesia. I can’t fathom them even thinking about it now.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    Again, I want t keep my comments in context of the issue of faith. The introduction of power political strategic thinking as to colonial practice has some serious breaks in adhering to scripture admonitions of Christ and the apostles.

    Though I think I understand your point.

    I am going to tread lightly in straying from that position in this conversation. Vatican II was intended to make Catholicism more accessible to more people.
    , @dfordoom

    It seems funny to think about it now; but the Netherlands used to control Indonesia. I can’t fathom them even thinking about it now.
     
    Europeans swing from one extreme to another. The Dutch used to control Indonesia. Now they don't even want to control their own country. It's like Europeans are all manic-depressive. They have huge mood swings. One minute they want to give the whole world a great big hug. The next minute they're wanting to bomb people in countries they've barely even heard of. Or they want to destroy themselves by starting another world war.

    European civilisation seems to contain within it a great deal of craziness. Not just craziness, but dangerous psychosis.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    "don’t seem to demand the requirements or the segregation you profess. You are entitled to it, but it’s not part or parcel by the founder — I won’t adopt it." You won't adopt it - but it will be imposed upon you. China has already started this process. The Chinese government has taken over its RCC and will choose its bishops. They are Sinoizing the Bible and Christianity. Cuck pope Frannie is ok with this. Asians will not want you. Blacks in Latin America are returning to their voodoo roots: Santeria in Cuba, Candomble in Brazil. Blacks will not want you.

    Up until Vatican II, the West, Europeans conquered and ruled the world. The RCC was predominantly European/Caucasian. The battles to destroy the RCC came from within this Western Christendom. Today the battles come from low IQers (blacks/Asians). The evil idea of universal brotherhood has ended. Separation is the future of the RCC.

    I agree that it was a dicey proposition for people of faith to incorporate regional beliefs as a means of explaining Christ — but I am never required to adopt them as my own. This method of helping to explain salvation and God in christain faith was practiced among the Galics, Romans, Anglo Saxons, vikings, etc.

    In fact, scripture makes it clear I should not do so.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Up until Vatican II, the West, Europeans conquered and ruled the world.
     
    We wuz kaaaangz!!!!

    Actually it’s more like post WW2 after the Europeans went hyper-postal on each other’s cities (often inviting their third world minions to join up in the fray), they didn’t have the wherewithal to hold the enterprises together. India and Pakistan were one of the first to go...then the rest - one by one. Not for lack of trying mind you - the effort to keep Algeria was thoroughly brutal.

    All for the best though, the power dynamics have changed so much. It seems funny to think about it now; but the Netherlands used to control Indonesia. I can’t fathom them even thinking about it now.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I think there is accuracy in your observation that the as the Catholic faith became prominent they engaged in practices not in any manner supported by scripture.

    I think that is an astute and brave observation. And as such most likely the original break from Christ’s teachings establishing a gateway for all manner of secular transgressions on the word and body of Christ.

    Whether or not the other observations that said ethnicities are at fault, I would have to examine what unique destructive aberrations or deviations from the word of Christ and the apostles they advanced.

    China does not endorse any expression of a belief in God. Should I go to China the Chinese would expect me to abide by their guidance on evangelism. But said guidance and restrictions are not to people of faith – and despite the risks, one would be well within Christ’s teaching=s and that of apostles who were also persecuted for the sharing the good news.

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  • @EliteCommInc.
    Well, I have no doubt that round of diversity blaming is popular excuse these days. But the problems with the Catholic and Anglican Churches has everything to do with a leadership that is abandoning the very foundations of christian thought and belief.

    And in neither doctrine is skin color, IQ, ethnicity, or nationality a pre-requisite for faith and practice. I would point the expectations of christian practice as outlined in scripture for church failings, but as you don't have much use for them as to practice or belief, I see no point.

    The only reasoning required to be a christian is the reasoning of Christ and his apostles -- that and most importantly the Holy Spirit. No congregation or denomination has out reasoned Christ or the apostles and they don't seem to demand the requirements or the segregation you profess. You are entitled to it, but it's not part or parcel by the founder -- I won't adopt it.

    At the feeding of the thousands, something that occurred more than once I think. Christ did have the apostles organize those present for the meal, but there is nothing that indicates, that organizational design was by color, IQ, ethnicity, status, class . . . nor is there any such prescription by any of the apostles.

    While we manifest ourselves in buildings of various designs and congregate in some manner -- the physical body is but to be a reflection of the spiritual work of faith -- that is in my view. The physical ultimately must give way to the spiritual. And while I must admit my own bitterness curtails my faith . . . the truth is

    " 12 . . . we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places"

    Ephesians 6:12

    this strongly suggests that skin color, ethnicity are not the issue, not even IQ, but something else and that something else has no unique form of skin color or IQ or wealth or status. Physical diversity is not indicated as the issue.

    “don’t seem to demand the requirements or the segregation you profess. You are entitled to it, but it’s not part or parcel by the founder — I won’t adopt it.” You won’t adopt it – but it will be imposed upon you. China has already started this process. The Chinese government has taken over its RCC and will choose its bishops. They are Sinoizing the Bible and Christianity. Cuck pope Frannie is ok with this. Asians will not want you. Blacks in Latin America are returning to their voodoo roots: Santeria in Cuba, Candomble in Brazil. Blacks will not want you.

    Up until Vatican II, the West, Europeans conquered and ruled the world. The RCC was predominantly European/Caucasian. The battles to destroy the RCC came from within this Western Christendom. Today the battles come from low IQers (blacks/Asians). The evil idea of universal brotherhood has ended. Separation is the future of the RCC.

    Read More
    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    I agree that it was a dicey proposition for people of faith to incorporate regional beliefs as a means of explaining Christ -- but I am never required to adopt them as my own. This method of helping to explain salvation and God in christain faith was practiced among the Galics, Romans, Anglo Saxons, vikings, etc.

    In fact, scripture makes it clear I should not do so.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    Deal with the most objective realistic truth - IQ, which is related to race and morality.

    God created race, IQ, and morality, and I expect He knows more on the subject than either of us.

    I suggest you (re-)read the Gospels. From beginning to end: don’t go cherry-picking your quotes. See what Jesus actually said.

    If you won’t listen to Him, I’m sure I can’t make any difference here.

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  • @Rosamond Vincy

    Your cowardly cuckiness is so out there – I can’t even.

     

    You can't even what?
    https://www.google.com/amp/thebunionpaper.com/post/63561160679/rich-girl-in-dining-hall-cant-even/amp

    I could stand up to Talha if I saw the need, but at the moment, I'm standing up to you. Unfortunately, that's getting boring, because you don't have anything to say. It's all "I'm white and Christian and they're not." Anyone who doesn't agree with you is a cuck or low IQ. You question everyone else's Ethos while never building any of your own.

    What Jesuit University allowed you to graduate? Debate is their specialty. Even Voltaire admitted the Jesuits gave him a first-rate education.

    .
    .

    Deal with the most objective realistic truth – IQ, which is related to race and morality.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    God created race, IQ, and morality, and I expect He knows more on the subject than either of us.

    I suggest you (re-)read the Gospels. From beginning to end: don't go cherry-picking your quotes. See what Jesus actually said.

    If you won't listen to Him, I'm sure I can't make any difference here.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bliss

    I don’t see how an afterlife that assumes one’s true existence as a spirit (in whichever modality of shape or body it is given) or the beatific vision of God…can be considered materialist.
     
    Is true existence spiritual or material? If it is spiritual why does it have to be attached to the body for all eternity?

    Secondly, it is absurd to say that muslims can see the formless Allah with their resurrected material eyes. Btw, it is also absurd to think that the formless Allah lives in a small house, the Kaaba. Does that make sense to you?

    And Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra) – through whom all tariqahs, save one, trace their chain – stated; “People are asleep…when they die, they will awaken.”
     
    You are just confirming yet again that Sufism is not true Islam, which is based on the Quran and Sunnah, not on some made up quotes from Ali. Who was the last Messenger of Allah, Mohammad or Ali?

    Hey, if that’s someone’s idea of Paradise – who am I to stop him? It is of course…Paradise, anyone can have what they want.
     
    “Someone’s idea of Paradise”? You lying fraud, as if you don’t know that is your Last Prophet’s idea of Paradise. Do you really think you can have more than the 72 virgins promised by Mohammad to fornicate with if you wanted? Show us where you learned that.

    A true Sufi, which you obviously are not, does not believe the Prophet’s promise of 72 virgins with big black eyes and big round breasts that you are so looking forward to. True Sufis seek Oneness in God:

    I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God.
     
    (Rumi)

    Is true existence spiritual or material?

    It depends on the stage. Before being entered into our current realm, we existed in the Alam al-Arwah (the Spirit world), then our spirits were infused into an earthly shell which we will eventually discard and spend time in the Alam al-Barzakh until time for Resurrection, Judgement and then having our spirits infused into some form or shell, the modality of which is not 100% defined, for the rest of eternity.

    If it is spiritual why does it have to be attached to the body for all eternity?

    Has nothing to do with “has to” any more than the spirit “has to” be infused into an earthly shell temporarily. God does what he wills.

    it is absurd to say that muslims can see the formless Allah with their resurrected material eyes.

    So you didn’t read through the material at the link by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani. I didn’t think you would, but thanks for the confirmation.

    it is also absurd to think that the formless Allah lives in a small house, the Kaaba.

    Very absurd.

    Does that make sense to you?

    Nope – which is why no Muslim thinks God actually lives in the Kaabah. But I support you thinking we do – again, 100%. You do you!

    that Sufism is not true Islam

    I already confirmed 100% support for your definition of “Sufism” to be mutually exclusive from Islam.

    some made up quotes from Ali

    OK – so you don’t accept the validity of the sayings of Companions (ra), which we call hadith athaar – especially the Rashidun Caliphs (ra) – as a valid source of deriving advice or law. The Four Sunni schools have never had a problem with it. In fact, I’m currently studying the Hidayah by Imam Marghinani (ra), a 12th century legal compendium of the Hanafi school, which uses hadith athaar extensively as proofs. You are welcome to reject hadith athaar or any other hadith for that matter. Again, we should care because…?

    Do you really think you can have more than the 72 virgins

    Some hadith mention 72, some 2, some 73, some 100…Imam Ghazali (ra) references two that mention 500 and a few hundred thousand. I don’t know of a single scholar that fixed an exact number and said; no more, no less. Since the scholars have always interpreted the textual sources keeping this overarching theme in mind:
    “And you will have therein whatever your souls desire, and you will have therein whatever you request” (41:31)

    But again, I 100% support you interpreting hadith however you want, I just fail to see why Muslims should care.

    fornicate with

    Does not compute:
    “So it will be. We shall wed them to maidens with beautiful eyes.” (44:54)

    A true Sufi, which you obviously are not

    Man, beat that dead horse – you go girl!

    (Rumi)

    I have been quite fascinated how Orientalists and Westerners have managed to turn a medieval Hanafi jurist, the Mufti of Konya – no less – into a perennialist hippy. That’s OK – again, I totally support your right to define him as you feelz…and we should care, why?
    “The Erasure of Islam from the Poetry of Rumi”

    https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-erasure-of-islam-from-the-poetry-of-rumi

    “I am the servant of the Qur’ân [man banda-yi qur'ân-am] as long as I have life. I am the dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen one [muhammad-e mukhtâr]. If anyone quotes anything except this from my sayings, I am quit of him and outraged by these words.” – Maulana Rumi (ra)

    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/western_views.html

    Now, I’m going to take my own advice and ignore any further posts from you, so feel free to waste your time in responding if you wish.

    Note: For anyone seriously interested in the subject, the above site is a great resource on his personage and accurate translations of his works (as opposed to Deepak Chopra [LOL!] or something). It is under the aegis of the institute in Turkey that is dedicated to preserving the legacy of Mawlana Rumi (ra):
    “The Institute is affiliated with the International Hazrat-i Mevlânâ Foundation, in Istanbul, Turkey. The president of the Foundation is the hereditary and actual world leader of the Mevlevi order–the 33rd Chelebi Efendi, Faruk Hemdem Chelebi, the 22nd generation great-grandson of Hazrat-i Mevlânâ Jalâluddîn Rûmî.”

    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/about_dar_al_masnavi.html

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    • Replies: @Bliss

    “I am the servant of the Qur’ân [man banda-yi qur'ân-am] as long as I have life. I am the dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen one [muhammad-e mukhtâr]. If anyone quotes anything except this from my sayings, I am quit of him and outraged by these words.” – Maulana Rumi (ra)
     
    Lol. To paraphrase Shakespeare, “The Sufi doth protest too much, methinks”.

    Rumi is obviously trying to protect himself and his disciples from the fate that befell the Sufi martyr Mansur Hallaj. That he had to defend himself like this shows that he must have been accused of heresy by some orthodox muslims.

    Do you really think Rumi’s whirling dervishes are following the example of Mohammad? What did Mohammad say about music? Do the Quran and Sunnah teach Oneness of Being?

    The dichotomy between Sufis and the followers of Mohammad is starkly highlighted by the fact that Hallaj is a martyr to the Sufis and an apostate who deserved torture and death to the true muslims.

    Rumi on Hallaj:

    Hallaj said what he said and went to the origin
    through the hole in the scaffold.

    I cut a cap's worth of cloth from his robe,
    and it swamped over me from head to foot.
     

    This is how Hallaj said, I am God,
    and told the truth!

    The ruby and the sunrise are one.
    Be courageous and discipline yourself.

    Completely become hearing and ear,
    and wear this sun-ruby as an earring.

    Work. Keep digging your well.
    Don’t think about getting off from work.
    Water is there somewhere.

    Submit to a daily practice.
    Your loyalty to that
    is a ring on the door.

    Keep knocking, and the joy inside
    will eventually open a window
    and look out to see who’s there.
     
    , @Bliss
    Any objective observer can see that Sufism has little if anything to do with the Quran or the beliefs and practices of the Prophet Mohammad. That includes western scholars, New Age types, free-thinking Sufis and (most importantly and dangerously for the Sufis) the muslims who practice the Islam of Mohammad.

    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/western_views.html

    During most of the past two hundred years, however, Western scholars (sometimes called Orientalists) have not viewed sufism as something largely inspired by the Qur'ân and Traditions [Ahâdîth]. Instead, they have tended to view sufism as imported from other religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Neoplatonism, Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, or Buddhism. Here is an example from an Orientalist who translated some of the poems of Hâfiz from Persian in 1897: "Hafiz belonged to the great sect from which so many of the most famous among Persian writers have sprung. Like Sa'di and Jami and Jelaleddin Rumi and a score of others, he was a Sufi. The history of Sufiism has yet to be written, the sources from which it arose are uncertain, and that it should have found a home in Mahommadanism, the least mystical of all religions, is still unexplained. Some have supposed that Sufiism was imported from India after the time of Mahommad....A third theory is that the origins of Sufiism are to be looked for in the philosophy of the Greeks, strangely distorted by the Eastern mind, and in the influence of Christianity..."1
     

    The popularization of sufism in the West followed this same pattern (first in Europe and then in America) starting in 1910 through a sufi musician and spiritual teacher from India, `Inâyat Khân, who taught that sufism is a form of universal mysticism with no real dependence upon Islam. Westerners were encouraged that they could learn sufi wisdom and do sufi spiritual practices without changing religions or becoming involved with Muslim ritual prayers and Muslim religious authorities.
     
    And here’s the justification of the link’s author:

    Sufis follow the Tradition that the Holy Qur'ân has an outward meaning and up to seven inner meanings [ilà sab`ati abTun], with the understanding that these meanings should not contradict the spirit of the outward or plain meaning.
     
    Note how he had conveniently neglected to mention that Salafi/orthodox muslims also agree that Sufism is not based on the Islam taught by Mohammad. Why? Because he would be unable to defend his claim of “seven inner meanings” in the Quran against their accusations of innovation and heresy.

    Nowhere does the Quran or Hadith teach that it has 7 hidden meanings. Quite the opposite:

    This day I have perfected your religion for you (Surat al-Maidah)

    You have an excellent model in the Messenger of Allah (Surat al-Ahzab)

    If anyone opposes the Messenger...and follows a path other than that of the believers...We will roast him in Hell. (Surat an-Nisa:115)

    The most evil affairs are the innovations and every innovation is an error (Sahih Muslim 1885)
    , @Bliss

    It depends on the stage.
     
    As if there is any stage that can be compared to the eternal stage, the afterlife in heaven or hell. Where your material body experiences pleasure or pain for ever and ever. That is the teaching of Islam. But not of Sufism.

    Nope – which is why no Muslim thinks God actually lives in the Kaabah.
     
    It sure looks like it. Why else would they call it the “House of Allah”? Why would they pray facing only in that direction? Why would they chant “Here I am Allah, here I am” when they reach the Kaaba in pilgrimage and circle around it? Why would they consider prostrating towards any other direction in God’s Creation as worshipping a false god? Etc

    Some hadith mention 72, some 2, some 73, some 100…Imam Ghazali (ra) references two that mention 500 and a few hundred thousand.
     
    Plenty hadith here that confirm the 72 number:

    https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Authenticity_of_72_Virgins_Hadith

    Now show us the Hadith that promises a few hundred thousand.
    , @Bliss

    OK – so you don’t accept the validity of the sayings of Companions (ra), which we call hadith athaar –
     
    There is no such thing as “hadith athaar”, you loathsome liar.

    And the sayings of Mohammad’s companions are not considered Ḥadīth.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    You will OSCULUM INFAME black/Asian priests-popes. I read your comment to Talha about you not being very bright. You are bright enough. Your problem is your cowardliness. The RCC, the Orthodox Church, and Anglo Catholics have the best theologies. The brilliant reasoning to develop the Christian church is a testament to the intellect and soul of the Western man. That's the catch, Westerners are the ones who can best comprehend and apply the principles of Christianity. With that said, I would like all people to be Christian, but they must have their own ethnic churches. The RCC is gone. Diversity killed the physical church. The Orthodox Church will be the church of the West.

    Well, I have no doubt that round of diversity blaming is popular excuse these days. But the problems with the Catholic and Anglican Churches has everything to do with a leadership that is abandoning the very foundations of christian thought and belief.

    And in neither doctrine is skin color, IQ, ethnicity, or nationality a pre-requisite for faith and practice. I would point the expectations of christian practice as outlined in scripture for church failings, but as you don’t have much use for them as to practice or belief, I see no point.

    The only reasoning required to be a christian is the reasoning of Christ and his apostles — that and most importantly the Holy Spirit. No congregation or denomination has out reasoned Christ or the apostles and they don’t seem to demand the requirements or the segregation you profess. You are entitled to it, but it’s not part or parcel by the founder — I won’t adopt it.

    At the feeding of the thousands, something that occurred more than once I think. Christ did have the apostles organize those present for the meal, but there is nothing that indicates, that organizational design was by color, IQ, ethnicity, status, class . . . nor is there any such prescription by any of the apostles.

    While we manifest ourselves in buildings of various designs and congregate in some manner — the physical body is but to be a reflection of the spiritual work of faith — that is in my view. The physical ultimately must give way to the spiritual. And while I must admit my own bitterness curtails my faith . . . the truth is

    ” 12 . . . we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places”

    Ephesians 6:12

    this strongly suggests that skin color, ethnicity are not the issue, not even IQ, but something else and that something else has no unique form of skin color or IQ or wealth or status. Physical diversity is not indicated as the issue.

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    "don’t seem to demand the requirements or the segregation you profess. You are entitled to it, but it’s not part or parcel by the founder — I won’t adopt it." You won't adopt it - but it will be imposed upon you. China has already started this process. The Chinese government has taken over its RCC and will choose its bishops. They are Sinoizing the Bible and Christianity. Cuck pope Frannie is ok with this. Asians will not want you. Blacks in Latin America are returning to their voodoo roots: Santeria in Cuba, Candomble in Brazil. Blacks will not want you.

    Up until Vatican II, the West, Europeans conquered and ruled the world. The RCC was predominantly European/Caucasian. The battles to destroy the RCC came from within this Western Christendom. Today the battles come from low IQers (blacks/Asians). The evil idea of universal brotherhood has ended. Separation is the future of the RCC.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    Your cowardly cuckiness is so out there - I can't even. Of course you won't say anything to Talha - you are a coward and you will not declare the truth of Christianity. The Muslim belief in Jesus being a great prophet is still a heresy. You will OSCULUM INFAME black/Asian priests-popes. Where I live, Muslims tried to convert me. I told them Islam is a Christian heresy. They didn't like that, but too bad.

    There is good news though. 2020 will be Year Zero in the West. The RCC has collapsed and churches are closing. I am talking about the physical church, not Christianity. Jesus said we are the temples. The RCC in the USA will be almost extinct by 2025. You mentioned Avignon. This shows that the papacy can be moved to the Congo or the Philippines. The West will not miss it. You cannot deal with biology and that the most objective truth is IQ. IQ is tied to race, morality.

    Victor Orban's victory in Hungary will completely the divide Western and Eastern Europe in the future. Eastern Europe is fine. The strength of the Orthodox Church will preserve it. I deal in reality and you come back with cotton candy nonsense.

    Your cowardly cuckiness is so out there – I can’t even.

    You can’t even what?

    https://www.google.com/amp/thebunionpaper.com/post/63561160679/rich-girl-in-dining-hall-cant-even/amp

    I could stand up to Talha if I saw the need, but at the moment, I’m standing up to you. Unfortunately, that’s getting boring, because you don’t have anything to say. It’s all “I’m white and Christian and they’re not.” Anyone who doesn’t agree with you is a cuck or low IQ. You question everyone else’s Ethos while never building any of your own.

    What Jesuit University allowed you to graduate? Debate is their specialty. Even Voltaire admitted the Jesuits gave him a first-rate education.

    .
    .

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    Deal with the most objective realistic truth - IQ, which is related to race and morality.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @EliteCommInc.
    My position is pretty clear and that position has been consistently maintained. The support for the christian faith rests on scripture -- feel free to demonstrate the reference in which either the old, or new testament notes a hierarchy based on IQ, skin color, wealth, ethnicity, status or nationality --

    That's where I start and generally end.

    You will OSCULUM INFAME black/Asian priests-popes. I read your comment to Talha about you not being very bright. You are bright enough. Your problem is your cowardliness. The RCC, the Orthodox Church, and Anglo Catholics have the best theologies. The brilliant reasoning to develop the Christian church is a testament to the intellect and soul of the Western man. That’s the catch, Westerners are the ones who can best comprehend and apply the principles of Christianity. With that said, I would like all people to be Christian, but they must have their own ethnic churches. The RCC is gone. Diversity killed the physical church. The Orthodox Church will be the church of the West.

    Read More
    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    Well, I have no doubt that round of diversity blaming is popular excuse these days. But the problems with the Catholic and Anglican Churches has everything to do with a leadership that is abandoning the very foundations of christian thought and belief.

    And in neither doctrine is skin color, IQ, ethnicity, or nationality a pre-requisite for faith and practice. I would point the expectations of christian practice as outlined in scripture for church failings, but as you don't have much use for them as to practice or belief, I see no point.

    The only reasoning required to be a christian is the reasoning of Christ and his apostles -- that and most importantly the Holy Spirit. No congregation or denomination has out reasoned Christ or the apostles and they don't seem to demand the requirements or the segregation you profess. You are entitled to it, but it's not part or parcel by the founder -- I won't adopt it.

    At the feeding of the thousands, something that occurred more than once I think. Christ did have the apostles organize those present for the meal, but there is nothing that indicates, that organizational design was by color, IQ, ethnicity, status, class . . . nor is there any such prescription by any of the apostles.

    While we manifest ourselves in buildings of various designs and congregate in some manner -- the physical body is but to be a reflection of the spiritual work of faith -- that is in my view. The physical ultimately must give way to the spiritual. And while I must admit my own bitterness curtails my faith . . . the truth is

    " 12 . . . we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places"

    Ephesians 6:12

    this strongly suggests that skin color, ethnicity are not the issue, not even IQ, but something else and that something else has no unique form of skin color or IQ or wealth or status. Physical diversity is not indicated as the issue.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Rosamond Vincy
    There is no need to tell Talha anything. He is well aware that while Muslims believe Jesus to be a great prophet, Catholics believe He was, is now, and ever shall be the Messiah and the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. I cannot give him any arguments he could not find in the Gospels or the Doctors of the Church.

    It is a work of Spiritual Mercy to instruct the ignorant. Talha is not ignorant.

    My "obsession" with your grammar, poor logic, and partial knowledge of Scripture is merely a response to your constant attacks on others for having low IQs. What have you done with your IQ, however high it may be, besides embrace either-or fallacies, ad hominem attacks, and circular reasoning? What have you done with the Western Culture you so prize, besides mangle the language of Chaucer, Shakespeare, and Milton?

    If God indeed gave you these gifts, how are you using them?

    Your cowardly cuckiness is so out there – I can’t even. Of course you won’t say anything to Talha – you are a coward and you will not declare the truth of Christianity. The Muslim belief in Jesus being a great prophet is still a heresy. You will OSCULUM INFAME black/Asian priests-popes. Where I live, Muslims tried to convert me. I told them Islam is a Christian heresy. They didn’t like that, but too bad.

    There is good news though. 2020 will be Year Zero in the West. The RCC has collapsed and churches are closing. I am talking about the physical church, not Christianity. Jesus said we are the temples. The RCC in the USA will be almost extinct by 2025. You mentioned Avignon. This shows that the papacy can be moved to the Congo or the Philippines. The West will not miss it. You cannot deal with biology and that the most objective truth is IQ. IQ is tied to race, morality.

    Victor Orban’s victory in Hungary will completely the divide Western and Eastern Europe in the future. Eastern Europe is fine. The strength of the Orthodox Church will preserve it. I deal in reality and you come back with cotton candy nonsense.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy

    Your cowardly cuckiness is so out there – I can’t even.

     

    You can't even what?
    https://www.google.com/amp/thebunionpaper.com/post/63561160679/rich-girl-in-dining-hall-cant-even/amp

    I could stand up to Talha if I saw the need, but at the moment, I'm standing up to you. Unfortunately, that's getting boring, because you don't have anything to say. It's all "I'm white and Christian and they're not." Anyone who doesn't agree with you is a cuck or low IQ. You question everyone else's Ethos while never building any of your own.

    What Jesuit University allowed you to graduate? Debate is their specialty. Even Voltaire admitted the Jesuits gave him a first-rate education.

    .
    .
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    You do accept black/Asian priests-popes.

    My position is pretty clear and that position has been consistently maintained. The support for the christian faith rests on scripture — feel free to demonstrate the reference in which either the old, or new testament notes a hierarchy based on IQ, skin color, wealth, ethnicity, status or nationality —

    That’s where I start and generally end.

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    You will OSCULUM INFAME black/Asian priests-popes. I read your comment to Talha about you not being very bright. You are bright enough. Your problem is your cowardliness. The RCC, the Orthodox Church, and Anglo Catholics have the best theologies. The brilliant reasoning to develop the Christian church is a testament to the intellect and soul of the Western man. That's the catch, Westerners are the ones who can best comprehend and apply the principles of Christianity. With that said, I would like all people to be Christian, but they must have their own ethnic churches. The RCC is gone. Diversity killed the physical church. The Orthodox Church will be the church of the West.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bliss

    Bliss, you’re not paying attention. I said I left the RCC because I don’t accept black/Asian priests-popes.
     
    How could I not be paying attention when I am in fact responding to what you have been repeating ad nauseam? You really come across as a mental case. How often do you have to repeat that statement?

    It says a lot about your character that you left the RCC over something as irrelevant to its mission as race, and not because of the sexual predation and perversions of its priests (the guilty ones being overwhelmingly white).

    What is your interest in the West?

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    You cannot have "significant disagreements with Talha's theology." He is a Christian heretic. The pre-Vatican II RCC stated this. Tell him Islam is a Christian heresy and all that comes from Islamic thought is false, evil and incorrect. Islam directly attacks the divinity of Jesus,

    Your grammar obsession is just a way to ignore what I have stated.

    There is no need to tell Talha anything. He is well aware that while Muslims believe Jesus to be a great prophet, Catholics believe He was, is now, and ever shall be the Messiah and the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. I cannot give him any arguments he could not find in the Gospels or the Doctors of the Church.

    It is a work of Spiritual Mercy to instruct the ignorant. Talha is not ignorant.

    My “obsession” with your grammar, poor logic, and partial knowledge of Scripture is merely a response to your constant attacks on others for having low IQs. What have you done with your IQ, however high it may be, besides embrace either-or fallacies, ad hominem attacks, and circular reasoning? What have you done with the Western Culture you so prize, besides mangle the language of Chaucer, Shakespeare, and Milton?

    If God indeed gave you these gifts, how are you using them?

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    Your cowardly cuckiness is so out there - I can't even. Of course you won't say anything to Talha - you are a coward and you will not declare the truth of Christianity. The Muslim belief in Jesus being a great prophet is still a heresy. You will OSCULUM INFAME black/Asian priests-popes. Where I live, Muslims tried to convert me. I told them Islam is a Christian heresy. They didn't like that, but too bad.

    There is good news though. 2020 will be Year Zero in the West. The RCC has collapsed and churches are closing. I am talking about the physical church, not Christianity. Jesus said we are the temples. The RCC in the USA will be almost extinct by 2025. You mentioned Avignon. This shows that the papacy can be moved to the Congo or the Philippines. The West will not miss it. You cannot deal with biology and that the most objective truth is IQ. IQ is tied to race, morality.

    Victor Orban's victory in Hungary will completely the divide Western and Eastern Europe in the future. Eastern Europe is fine. The strength of the Orthodox Church will preserve it. I deal in reality and you come back with cotton candy nonsense.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    Bliss, you're not paying attention. I said I left the RCC because I don't accept black/Asian priests-popes. Jesus was a Caucasian. He would have looked like St. Augustine of Hippos. Most of the Muslim North African and Middle Eastern people today have black ancestry because when Islam took over these areas they imported blacks slaves. Through polygamy and concubinage these original Caucasian peoples were destroyed.

    Bliss, you’re not paying attention. I said I left the RCC because I don’t accept black/Asian priests-popes.

    How could I not be paying attention when I am in fact responding to what you have been repeating ad nauseam? You really come across as a mental case. How often do you have to repeat that statement?

    It says a lot about your character that you left the RCC over something as irrelevant to its mission as race, and not because of the sexual predation and perversions of its priests (the guilty ones being overwhelmingly white).

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    What is your interest in the West?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    Bliss, you're not paying attention. I said I left the RCC because I don't accept black/Asian priests-popes. Jesus was a Caucasian. He would have looked like St. Augustine of Hippos. Most of the Muslim North African and Middle Eastern people today have black ancestry because when Islam took over these areas they imported blacks slaves. Through polygamy and concubinage these original Caucasian peoples were destroyed.

    Most of the Muslim North African and Middle Eastern people today have black ancestry because when Islam took over these areas they imported blacks slaves.

    Muslim arabs, turks, berbers etc were all equal opportunity slavers: they enslaved millions of europeans as well. In fact the very word “slave” is derived from “slav”.

    North African pirates went on slave capturing raids as far as Ireland and Iceland. In the early 19th century a number of white US citizens also ended up as slaves of the Berber pirates.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade

    [MORE]

    The Barbary slave trade refers to the slave markets that flourished on the Barbary Coast of North Africa, which included the Ottoman provinces of Algeria, Tunisia and Tripolitania and the independent sultanate of Morocco, between the 16th and middle of the 18th century. The Ottoman provinces in North Africa were nominally under Ottoman suzerainty, but in reality they were mostly autonomous. The North African slave markets were part of the Arab slave trade.

    Ohio State University history Professor Robert Davis describes the White Slave Trade as minimized by most modern historians in his book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast and Italy, 1500–1800. Davis estimates that 1 million to 1.25 million white Christian Europeans were enslaved in North Africa, from the beginning of the 16th century to the middle of the 18th, by slave traders from Tunis, Algiers, and Tripoli alone (these numbers do not include the European people which were enslaved by Morocco and by other raiders and traders of the Mediterranean Sea coast),[3] and roughly 700 Americans were held captive in this region as slaves between 1785 and 1815

    From bases on the Barbary coast, North Africa, the Barbary pirates raided ships traveling through the Mediterranean and along the northern and western coasts of Africa, plundering their cargo and enslaving the people they captured. From at least 1500, the pirates also conducted raids along seaside towns of Italy, Spain, France, England, the Netherlands and as far away as Iceland, capturing men, women and children. On some occasions, settlements such as Baltimore, Ireland were abandoned following the raid, only being resettled many years later. Between 1609 and 1616, England alone had 466 merchant ships lost to Barbary pirates

    Sixteenth- and 17th-century customs statistics suggest that Istanbul’s additional slave import from the Black Sea may have totaled around 2.5 million from 1450 to 1700………..A compilation of partial statistics and patchy estimates indicates that a little fewer than 2 million Russians, Ukrainians, and Poles were seized from 1468 to 1694. Additionally, there were slaves from the Caucasus obtained by a mixture of raiding and trading.

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  • @EliteCommInc.
    Laugh. The Catholic Pope is selected via a process by which it is confirmed by miraculous signs . . .

    As there is no scriptural or doctrinal prohibitions based on skin color, or nationality or ethnicity --

    I am unclear by what matter of scripture or doctrine I could challenge the matter.


    One has three choices when a conflict arises to faith:

    1. depart the faith
    2. accept accordance with the principles and so explicated or
    3. find another avenue of justification so one is not in direct conflict
    4. part ways


    I will answer your question on one condition -- note the scripture or Catholic doctrine that forbids it. As I indicated -- scripture comes first. The admonitions of the apostles and christ come first. Demonstrate a violation in those foundations. I will answer your inquiry.

    You do accept black/Asian priests-popes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    My position is pretty clear and that position has been consistently maintained. The support for the christian faith rests on scripture -- feel free to demonstrate the reference in which either the old, or new testament notes a hierarchy based on IQ, skin color, wealth, ethnicity, status or nationality --

    That's where I start and generally end.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bliss

    Would you accept a black/Asian pope?
     
    You are like a lunatic banging his head against the wall. You cannot reconcile your white supremacism with Catholicism. Deal with it.

    Deal with this also:

    https://www.insideedition.com/what-did-jesus-look-historian-says-widely-known-image-christ-inaccurate-42006

    “many historians believe that the fair-skinned Jesus was actually inspired by the heir to the Borgia clan in Italy in the 15th century, Caesar Borgia. The Italian Cardinal was famed for his handsome features, and his father, Pope Alexander VI, commissioned Leonardo da Vinci to paint a portrait of Jesus modeled after his sons.

    But, citing historian Joan Taylor and her latest book, "What Did Jesus Look Like?" Beaudoin speculated the real Jesus probably looked much different.

    He said historians believe Jesus was much darker skin, and stood at only 5 feet tall. He would have also worn his beard and hair short.

    Instead of a long robe, Jesus likely wore a knee-length tunic with a short mantle or shawl, and wore leather sandals.

    “He would have presented very typically, she argues, as a Jewish man of his day, which is quite different than how Jesus is often imagined in Christian churches today,” Beaudoin explained. "Think about Jewish people in Iraq today and this is how we should imagine Jesus. He would have looked like what we think of Middle Eastern presenting people today."

    Bliss, you’re not paying attention. I said I left the RCC because I don’t accept black/Asian priests-popes. Jesus was a Caucasian. He would have looked like St. Augustine of Hippos. Most of the Muslim North African and Middle Eastern people today have black ancestry because when Islam took over these areas they imported blacks slaves. Through polygamy and concubinage these original Caucasian peoples were destroyed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bliss

    Most of the Muslim North African and Middle Eastern people today have black ancestry because when Islam took over these areas they imported blacks slaves.
     
    Muslim arabs, turks, berbers etc were all equal opportunity slavers: they enslaved millions of europeans as well. In fact the very word “slave” is derived from “slav”.

    North African pirates went on slave capturing raids as far as Ireland and Iceland. In the early 19th century a number of white US citizens also ended up as slaves of the Berber pirates.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade

    The Barbary slave trade refers to the slave markets that flourished on the Barbary Coast of North Africa, which included the Ottoman provinces of Algeria, Tunisia and Tripolitania and the independent sultanate of Morocco, between the 16th and middle of the 18th century. The Ottoman provinces in North Africa were nominally under Ottoman suzerainty, but in reality they were mostly autonomous. The North African slave markets were part of the Arab slave trade.

    Ohio State University history Professor Robert Davis describes the White Slave Trade as minimized by most modern historians in his book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast and Italy, 1500–1800. Davis estimates that 1 million to 1.25 million white Christian Europeans were enslaved in North Africa, from the beginning of the 16th century to the middle of the 18th, by slave traders from Tunis, Algiers, and Tripoli alone (these numbers do not include the European people which were enslaved by Morocco and by other raiders and traders of the Mediterranean Sea coast),[3] and roughly 700 Americans were held captive in this region as slaves between 1785 and 1815

    From bases on the Barbary coast, North Africa, the Barbary pirates raided ships traveling through the Mediterranean and along the northern and western coasts of Africa, plundering their cargo and enslaving the people they captured. From at least 1500, the pirates also conducted raids along seaside towns of Italy, Spain, France, England, the Netherlands and as far away as Iceland, capturing men, women and children. On some occasions, settlements such as Baltimore, Ireland were abandoned following the raid, only being resettled many years later. Between 1609 and 1616, England alone had 466 merchant ships lost to Barbary pirates


    Sixteenth- and 17th-century customs statistics suggest that Istanbul's additional slave import from the Black Sea may have totaled around 2.5 million from 1450 to 1700...........A compilation of partial statistics and patchy estimates indicates that a little fewer than 2 million Russians, Ukrainians, and Poles were seized from 1468 to 1694. Additionally, there were slaves from the Caucasus obtained by a mixture of raiding and trading.
    , @Bliss

    Bliss, you’re not paying attention. I said I left the RCC because I don’t accept black/Asian priests-popes.
     
    How could I not be paying attention when I am in fact responding to what you have been repeating ad nauseam? You really come across as a mental case. How often do you have to repeat that statement?

    It says a lot about your character that you left the RCC over something as irrelevant to its mission as race, and not because of the sexual predation and perversions of its priests (the guilty ones being overwhelmingly white).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    "Materialism, also called physicalism, in philosophy, the view that all facts (including facts about the human mind and will and the course of human history) are causally dependent upon physical processes, or even reducible to them."
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/materialism-philosophy

    I don't see how an afterlife that assumes one's true existence as a spirit (in whichever modality of shape or body it is given) or the beatific vision of God:
    “Upon that day faces shall be radiant, gazing upon their Lord.” [75.22-23]
    "This beholding is one of the greatest of spiritual favors. May Allah make us of those who are granted ultimate felicity."
    http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2011/01/26/does-seeing-allah-imply-that-he-has-a-body-form-or-limitations/

    ...can be considered materialist. But hey, you do you - if you want to call it materialist, I support you 100%.

    This place is a dream. Only a sleeper considers it real (Rumi)
     
    And Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra) - through whom all tariqahs, save one, trace their chain - stated; "People are asleep...when they die, they will awaken."

    I also fully support you interpreting mystic poetry and aphorisms in a literal way - like I said, you do you.

    This is why I find you so contemptible.
     
    And I should care that some random anonymous non-Muslim internet guy, who can't put a single Arabic sentence together, feels this way because...?

    If you think you will be fu*king 72 virgins for ever
     
    Hey, if that's someone's idea of Paradise - who am I to stop him? It is of course...Paradise, anyone can have what they want. I'm personally (hoping I get in, inshaAllah) looking forward to the beatific vision and meeting with the past Prophets (pbut) and Companions (ra) and luminaries. And also a house made of Twix bars so I can eat my way in and out of it...and a dragon - childhood dreams.

    you are a Salafi not a Sufi
     
    Thanks for your opinion, again, I 100% support your right to your opinions. I hope you don't mind, neither I nor my teachers in the Naqshbandi Mujaddidi tariqah (descended from the line of Mujaddid Alif-Thani, Imam Rabbani, Shaykh Sirhindi [ra]) care.
    http://maktabah.org/blog/?p=906

    As I've stated before, I totally believe in your right to define "Sufism" any which way you want. It's a term Orientalists came up with anyway - we don't need it since we have internal and indigenous definitions:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOZ5hXt_7GA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuQhcAS-osw

    This is yet another example of your disgusting dishonesty. Shame on you.
     
    http://cf.chucklesnetwork.com/items/6/1/3/6/6/original/art-thou-irate-brethren.jpg
    Yes, I'm quite incorrigible...but there is a solution!

    Close your eyes, look deep, deep inside your heart - shut out all the noise - there is an inner voice whispering to you..."Click the 'IGNORE COMMENTER' button, you will find it by first clicking on 'AGREE/DISAGREE/ETC.'"

    I don’t see how an afterlife that assumes one’s true existence as a spirit (in whichever modality of shape or body it is given) or the beatific vision of God…can be considered materialist.

    Is true existence spiritual or material? If it is spiritual why does it have to be attached to the body for all eternity?

    Secondly, it is absurd to say that muslims can see the formless Allah with their resurrected material eyes. Btw, it is also absurd to think that the formless Allah lives in a small house, the Kaaba. Does that make sense to you?

    And Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra) – through whom all tariqahs, save one, trace their chain – stated; “People are asleep…when they die, they will awaken.”

    You are just confirming yet again that Sufism is not true Islam, which is based on the Quran and Sunnah, not on some made up quotes from Ali. Who was the last Messenger of Allah, Mohammad or Ali?

    Hey, if that’s someone’s idea of Paradise – who am I to stop him? It is of course…Paradise, anyone can have what they want.

    “Someone’s idea of Paradise”? You lying fraud, as if you don’t know that is your Last Prophet’s idea of Paradise. Do you really think you can have more than the 72 virgins promised by Mohammad to fornicate with if you wanted? Show us where you learned that.

    A true Sufi, which you obviously are not, does not believe the Prophet’s promise of 72 virgins with big black eyes and big round breasts that you are so looking forward to. True Sufis seek Oneness in God:

    I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God.

    (Rumi)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Is true existence spiritual or material?
     
    It depends on the stage. Before being entered into our current realm, we existed in the Alam al-Arwah (the Spirit world), then our spirits were infused into an earthly shell which we will eventually discard and spend time in the Alam al-Barzakh until time for Resurrection, Judgement and then having our spirits infused into some form or shell, the modality of which is not 100% defined, for the rest of eternity.

    If it is spiritual why does it have to be attached to the body for all eternity?
     
    Has nothing to do with "has to" any more than the spirit "has to" be infused into an earthly shell temporarily. God does what he wills.

    it is absurd to say that muslims can see the formless Allah with their resurrected material eyes.
     
    So you didn't read through the material at the link by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani. I didn't think you would, but thanks for the confirmation.

    it is also absurd to think that the formless Allah lives in a small house, the Kaaba.
     
    Very absurd.

    Does that make sense to you?
     
    Nope - which is why no Muslim thinks God actually lives in the Kaabah. But I support you thinking we do - again, 100%. You do you!

    that Sufism is not true Islam
     
    I already confirmed 100% support for your definition of "Sufism" to be mutually exclusive from Islam.

    some made up quotes from Ali
     
    OK - so you don't accept the validity of the sayings of Companions (ra), which we call hadith athaar - especially the Rashidun Caliphs (ra) - as a valid source of deriving advice or law. The Four Sunni schools have never had a problem with it. In fact, I'm currently studying the Hidayah by Imam Marghinani (ra), a 12th century legal compendium of the Hanafi school, which uses hadith athaar extensively as proofs. You are welcome to reject hadith athaar or any other hadith for that matter. Again, we should care because...?

    Do you really think you can have more than the 72 virgins
     
    Some hadith mention 72, some 2, some 73, some 100...Imam Ghazali (ra) references two that mention 500 and a few hundred thousand. I don't know of a single scholar that fixed an exact number and said; no more, no less. Since the scholars have always interpreted the textual sources keeping this overarching theme in mind:
    "And you will have therein whatever your souls desire, and you will have therein whatever you request" (41:31)

    But again, I 100% support you interpreting hadith however you want, I just fail to see why Muslims should care.


    fornicate with
     
    Does not compute:
    "So it will be. We shall wed them to maidens with beautiful eyes." (44:54)

    A true Sufi, which you obviously are not
     
    Man, beat that dead horse - you go girl!

    (Rumi)
     
    I have been quite fascinated how Orientalists and Westerners have managed to turn a medieval Hanafi jurist, the Mufti of Konya - no less - into a perennialist hippy. That's OK - again, I totally support your right to define him as you feelz...and we should care, why?
    "The Erasure of Islam from the Poetry of Rumi"
    https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-erasure-of-islam-from-the-poetry-of-rumi

    "I am the servant of the Qur'ân [man banda-yi qur'ân-am] as long as I have life. I am the dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen one [muhammad-e mukhtâr]. If anyone quotes anything except this from my sayings, I am quit of him and outraged by these words." - Maulana Rumi (ra)
    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/western_views.html

    Now, I'm going to take my own advice and ignore any further posts from you, so feel free to waste your time in responding if you wish.

    Note: For anyone seriously interested in the subject, the above site is a great resource on his personage and accurate translations of his works (as opposed to Deepak Chopra [LOL!] or something). It is under the aegis of the institute in Turkey that is dedicated to preserving the legacy of Mawlana Rumi (ra):
    "The Institute is affiliated with the International Hazrat-i Mevlânâ Foundation, in Istanbul, Turkey. The president of the Foundation is the hereditary and actual world leader of the Mevlevi order--the 33rd Chelebi Efendi, Faruk Hemdem Chelebi, the 22nd generation great-grandson of Hazrat-i Mevlânâ Jalâluddîn Rûmî."
    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/about_dar_al_masnavi.html
     

    , @Bliss

    I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God. (Rumi)
     
    Jesus: Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me (John 14:11)

    See the similarity? That is Oneness Of Being.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @EliteCommInc.
    I am not a very bright person. So I have to tread lightly on the matter of intelligence. It's far ,more complex than most are led to believe. And what serious researchers in the field openly admit is that have no idea how much of IQ is environment.


    But on the issue of morality, it's quite clear that having a "high IQ" has little merit. The issue of moral coding is not something that seemed to matter -- Christ does not seem to have modified his message from the poor to the wealthy or the elite educated, save he said the road of belief for them would be harder. Which seems to suggest the opposite the more benefit against others one has seems to indicate the tougher it is to be moral.

    When one considers the hassle required to get through the eye of a local community stronghold and his comparison for the wealthy to get to heaven --- it's neither a case for intelligence or wealth to a better moral standing.

    I have some views why the current press is becoming increasingly vital to colorists and genetic polity. But on the matter of faith, it was the intelligentsia that betrayed Christ and the intelligentsia with who Christ seems to had the most intense battles with. It is not that there is anything wrong with wealth or IQ, but Christ makes it clear it carrier weight as to accountability.

    In the end, to salvation and ion relation to the living God --- neither color, IQ, wealth, ethnicity or nationality are impediments or helps. In fact, Christ notes, he went to those who should have known who he was,

    but they knew him not."

    And what serious researchers in the field openly admit is that have no idea how much of IQ is environment.

    Sure; partly genetic, partly environmental…and gasp(!!!) it fluctuates over time:
    “The Flynn effect describes the phenomenon that over time average IQ scores have been increasing in all countries since the turn of the twentieth century (the earliest point in time for which data is available). The change in IQ scores has been approximately three IQ points per decade. One major implications of this trend is that an average individual alive today would have an IQ of 130 by the standards of 1910, making them more intelligent than 98% of the population at that time. Equivalently, an individual alive in 1910 would have an IQ of 70 by today’s standards, a score that would be low enough to be considered intellectually disabled in the modern world.”

    https://ourworldindata.org/intelligence

    Holy cow!!!

    it carrier weight as to accountability.

    Bingo! Those that have actually been gifted more than others are actually carrying a liability on their shoulders; they will be held to different standards than those who have been granted less. Just as a man who can see vs the blind, the man who is handsome versus ugly, etc.

    neither color, IQ, wealth, ethnicity or nationality are impediments or helps

    Agreed:
    “O mankind! We have created you all from a male and female and have made you nations and tribes so that you may know each other. The most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most pious of you. God is All-knowing and All-aware.” (49:13)

    Peace.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    You cannot have "significant disagreements with Talha's theology." He is a Christian heretic. The pre-Vatican II RCC stated this. Tell him Islam is a Christian heresy and all that comes from Islamic thought is false, evil and incorrect. Islam directly attacks the divinity of Jesus,

    Your grammar obsession is just a way to ignore what I have stated.

    Tell him

    Sho’ thing massa’…

    Are you the kind of person that takes it upon themselves to order for everybody at the table when eating out?

    all that comes from Islamic thought is false, evil and incorrect.

    OMG!!! No way!!! Dang, Christendom has been saying that for 14 centuries now – but – wow – all of a sudden it hit me! Christians think our doctrines are; false, evil or incorrect!

    Man are we slow…I should go apostate and cry in a corner or something…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    I have seen multiple people at UNZ stuck on a silly principle of "average intelligence"; and I think, yeah so - how does that relate to the individual?

    Like, you know it is possible to have a High-IQ Black person despite the average in their population and a Low-IQ East Asian despite the average in theirs, right? I mean its basic understanding of mathematics and statistics that my 8 year-old can figure out.

    In our history, two of the greatest legal minds were the jurists Imam Malik (ra) who founded the school of Madinah which became the Maliki school of law and Imam Abu Hanifah (ra) who founded the school of Kufah which became the Hanafi school.

    Imam Malik (ra) was a White man described as having white skin, blue eyes and blonde hair. On the other side, Imam Abu Hanifah (ra) was a Persian - and yet one of his main teachers was Imam Ata' ibn Abi Rabah (ra) a Nubian African who was the main jurist of Makkah.

    Sure, maybe averages on intelligence, strength, height, resistance to disease, etc. make a difference in how a particular society takes shape (and the environment of the society, in turn, affects those traits in a sort of organic feedback loop); this totally makes sense. But why the hell would you judge a particular individual by an average value? I can't understand the leap of logic there - even without reference to scripture.

    Peace.

    I am not a very bright person. So I have to tread lightly on the matter of intelligence. It’s far ,more complex than most are led to believe. And what serious researchers in the field openly admit is that have no idea how much of IQ is environment.

    But on the issue of morality, it’s quite clear that having a “high IQ” has little merit. The issue of moral coding is not something that seemed to matter — Christ does not seem to have modified his message from the poor to the wealthy or the elite educated, save he said the road of belief for them would be harder. Which seems to suggest the opposite the more benefit against others one has seems to indicate the tougher it is to be moral.

    When one considers the hassle required to get through the eye of a local community stronghold and his comparison for the wealthy to get to heaven — it’s neither a case for intelligence or wealth to a better moral standing.

    I have some views why the current press is becoming increasingly vital to colorists and genetic polity. But on the matter of faith, it was the intelligentsia that betrayed Christ and the intelligentsia with who Christ seems to had the most intense battles with. It is not that there is anything wrong with wealth or IQ, but Christ makes it clear it carrier weight as to accountability.

    In the end, to salvation and ion relation to the living God — neither color, IQ, wealth, ethnicity or nationality are impediments or helps. In fact, Christ notes, he went to those who should have known who he was,

    but they knew him not.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    And what serious researchers in the field openly admit is that have no idea how much of IQ is environment.
     
    Sure; partly genetic, partly environmental...and gasp(!!!) it fluctuates over time:
    "The Flynn effect describes the phenomenon that over time average IQ scores have been increasing in all countries since the turn of the twentieth century (the earliest point in time for which data is available). The change in IQ scores has been approximately three IQ points per decade. One major implications of this trend is that an average individual alive today would have an IQ of 130 by the standards of 1910, making them more intelligent than 98% of the population at that time. Equivalently, an individual alive in 1910 would have an IQ of 70 by today’s standards, a score that would be low enough to be considered intellectually disabled in the modern world."
    https://ourworldindata.org/intelligence

    Holy cow!!!

    it carrier weight as to accountability.
     
    Bingo! Those that have actually been gifted more than others are actually carrying a liability on their shoulders; they will be held to different standards than those who have been granted less. Just as a man who can see vs the blind, the man who is handsome versus ugly, etc.

    neither color, IQ, wealth, ethnicity or nationality are impediments or helps
     
    Agreed:
    "O mankind! We have created you all from a male and female and have made you nations and tribes so that you may know each other. The most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most pious of you. God is All-knowing and All-aware." (49:13)

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    Would you accept a black/Asian pope?

    Would you accept a black/Asian pope?

    You are like a lunatic banging his head against the wall. You cannot reconcile your white supremacism with Catholicism. Deal with it.

    Deal with this also:

    https://www.insideedition.com/what-did-jesus-look-historian-says-widely-known-image-christ-inaccurate-42006

    “many historians believe that the fair-skinned Jesus was actually inspired by the heir to the Borgia clan in Italy in the 15th century, Caesar Borgia. The Italian Cardinal was famed for his handsome features, and his father, Pope Alexander VI, commissioned Leonardo da Vinci to paint a portrait of Jesus modeled after his sons.

    But, citing historian Joan Taylor and her latest book, “What Did Jesus Look Like?” Beaudoin speculated the real Jesus probably looked much different.

    He said historians believe Jesus was much darker skin, and stood at only 5 feet tall. He would have also worn his beard and hair short.

    Instead of a long robe, Jesus likely wore a knee-length tunic with a short mantle or shawl, and wore leather sandals.

    “He would have presented very typically, she argues, as a Jewish man of his day, which is quite different than how Jesus is often imagined in Christian churches today,” Beaudoin explained. “Think about Jewish people in Iraq today and this is how we should imagine Jesus. He would have looked like what we think of Middle Eastern presenting people today.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    Bliss, you're not paying attention. I said I left the RCC because I don't accept black/Asian priests-popes. Jesus was a Caucasian. He would have looked like St. Augustine of Hippos. Most of the Muslim North African and Middle Eastern people today have black ancestry because when Islam took over these areas they imported blacks slaves. Through polygamy and concubinage these original Caucasian peoples were destroyed.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Rosamond Vincy

    So you’re reduced to attacking my few grammatical mistakes in these exchanges. These are informal forums. A few mistakes are not important.
     
    They are not few. I ran out of the patience necessary to list them. All of your posts are riddled with mistakes. Some may be ordinary typos or the dreaded autocorrect at work, but others betray a lack of understanding of syntax.

    I can understand why you are furious with the Church, since your parochial schools and Jesuit university apparently managed to siphon you through without ever affording you a decent education--unless you're not being entirely truthful about the terms under which you left some of those schools.... You can neither write nor reason. You propose arguments without being prepared for counter-arguments, and your only rebuttal is to call people cucks. You even display a near-complete ignorance of Scripture, and your ignorance of the early Church Fathers is total.

    Argumentum pro feminam has no more validity than argumentum ad hominem. Your supposedly higher IQ does not guarantee that your opinions are better-reasoned than others'. I have seen people with little formal education who display remarkable common sense, and I have also seen tenured professors who don't have the sense to come in out of a shower of pigeon pee.

    You also know very little of the biology you place before belief. Palestinians and Israelis, to the consternation of both, are genetically very similar--something doctors have discovered when looking for matches for donor organ transplants. Could it be that the old Bible story about Isaac and Ishmael being half-brothers is true, and they are all cousins? No wonder they can't get along. Nothing worse than a family fight!

    You repeatedly support your opinions by claiming that being Caucasian gives you a higher IQ. I have significant disagreements with Talha's theology, but I have seen no evidence that he is either uneducated or naturally deficient.

    You cannot have “significant disagreements with Talha’s theology.” He is a Christian heretic. The pre-Vatican II RCC stated this. Tell him Islam is a Christian heresy and all that comes from Islamic thought is false, evil and incorrect. Islam directly attacks the divinity of Jesus,

    Your grammar obsession is just a way to ignore what I have stated.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Tell him
     
    Sho' thing massa'...

    Are you the kind of person that takes it upon themselves to order for everybody at the table when eating out?

    all that comes from Islamic thought is false, evil and incorrect.
     
    OMG!!! No way!!! Dang, Christendom has been saying that for 14 centuries now - but - wow - all of a sudden it hit me! Christians think our doctrines are; false, evil or incorrect!

    Man are we slow...I should go apostate and cry in a corner or something...
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    There is no need to tell Talha anything. He is well aware that while Muslims believe Jesus to be a great prophet, Catholics believe He was, is now, and ever shall be the Messiah and the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. I cannot give him any arguments he could not find in the Gospels or the Doctors of the Church.

    It is a work of Spiritual Mercy to instruct the ignorant. Talha is not ignorant.

    My "obsession" with your grammar, poor logic, and partial knowledge of Scripture is merely a response to your constant attacks on others for having low IQs. What have you done with your IQ, however high it may be, besides embrace either-or fallacies, ad hominem attacks, and circular reasoning? What have you done with the Western Culture you so prize, besides mangle the language of Chaucer, Shakespeare, and Milton?

    If God indeed gave you these gifts, how are you using them?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @EliteCommInc.
    Laugh. The Catholic Pope is selected via a process by which it is confirmed by miraculous signs . . .

    As there is no scriptural or doctrinal prohibitions based on skin color, or nationality or ethnicity --

    I am unclear by what matter of scripture or doctrine I could challenge the matter.


    One has three choices when a conflict arises to faith:

    1. depart the faith
    2. accept accordance with the principles and so explicated or
    3. find another avenue of justification so one is not in direct conflict
    4. part ways


    I will answer your question on one condition -- note the scripture or Catholic doctrine that forbids it. As I indicated -- scripture comes first. The admonitions of the apostles and christ come first. Demonstrate a violation in those foundations. I will answer your inquiry.

    I have seen multiple people at UNZ stuck on a silly principle of “average intelligence”; and I think, yeah so – how does that relate to the individual?

    Like, you know it is possible to have a High-IQ Black person despite the average in their population and a Low-IQ East Asian despite the average in theirs, right? I mean its basic understanding of mathematics and statistics that my 8 year-old can figure out.

    In our history, two of the greatest legal minds were the jurists Imam Malik (ra) who founded the school of Madinah which became the Maliki school of law and Imam Abu Hanifah (ra) who founded the school of Kufah which became the Hanafi school.

    Imam Malik (ra) was a White man described as having white skin, blue eyes and blonde hair. On the other side, Imam Abu Hanifah (ra) was a Persian – and yet one of his main teachers was Imam Ata’ ibn Abi Rabah (ra) a Nubian African who was the main jurist of Makkah.

    Sure, maybe averages on intelligence, strength, height, resistance to disease, etc. make a difference in how a particular society takes shape (and the environment of the society, in turn, affects those traits in a sort of organic feedback loop); this totally makes sense. But why the hell would you judge a particular individual by an average value? I can’t understand the leap of logic there – even without reference to scripture.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    I am not a very bright person. So I have to tread lightly on the matter of intelligence. It's far ,more complex than most are led to believe. And what serious researchers in the field openly admit is that have no idea how much of IQ is environment.


    But on the issue of morality, it's quite clear that having a "high IQ" has little merit. The issue of moral coding is not something that seemed to matter -- Christ does not seem to have modified his message from the poor to the wealthy or the elite educated, save he said the road of belief for them would be harder. Which seems to suggest the opposite the more benefit against others one has seems to indicate the tougher it is to be moral.

    When one considers the hassle required to get through the eye of a local community stronghold and his comparison for the wealthy to get to heaven --- it's neither a case for intelligence or wealth to a better moral standing.

    I have some views why the current press is becoming increasingly vital to colorists and genetic polity. But on the matter of faith, it was the intelligentsia that betrayed Christ and the intelligentsia with who Christ seems to had the most intense battles with. It is not that there is anything wrong with wealth or IQ, but Christ makes it clear it carrier weight as to accountability.

    In the end, to salvation and ion relation to the living God --- neither color, IQ, wealth, ethnicity or nationality are impediments or helps. In fact, Christ notes, he went to those who should have known who he was,

    but they knew him not."
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @attilathehen
    Would you accept a black/Asian pope?

    Laugh. The Catholic Pope is selected via a process by which it is confirmed by miraculous signs . . .

    As there is no scriptural or doctrinal prohibitions based on skin color, or nationality or ethnicity —

    I am unclear by what matter of scripture or doctrine I could challenge the matter.

    One has three choices when a conflict arises to faith:

    1. depart the faith
    2. accept accordance with the principles and so explicated or
    3. find another avenue of justification so one is not in direct conflict
    4. part ways

    I will answer your question on one condition — note the scripture or Catholic doctrine that forbids it. As I indicated — scripture comes first. The admonitions of the apostles and christ come first. Demonstrate a violation in those foundations. I will answer your inquiry.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    I have seen multiple people at UNZ stuck on a silly principle of "average intelligence"; and I think, yeah so - how does that relate to the individual?

    Like, you know it is possible to have a High-IQ Black person despite the average in their population and a Low-IQ East Asian despite the average in theirs, right? I mean its basic understanding of mathematics and statistics that my 8 year-old can figure out.

    In our history, two of the greatest legal minds were the jurists Imam Malik (ra) who founded the school of Madinah which became the Maliki school of law and Imam Abu Hanifah (ra) who founded the school of Kufah which became the Hanafi school.

    Imam Malik (ra) was a White man described as having white skin, blue eyes and blonde hair. On the other side, Imam Abu Hanifah (ra) was a Persian - and yet one of his main teachers was Imam Ata' ibn Abi Rabah (ra) a Nubian African who was the main jurist of Makkah.

    Sure, maybe averages on intelligence, strength, height, resistance to disease, etc. make a difference in how a particular society takes shape (and the environment of the society, in turn, affects those traits in a sort of organic feedback loop); this totally makes sense. But why the hell would you judge a particular individual by an average value? I can't understand the leap of logic there - even without reference to scripture.

    Peace.
    , @attilathehen
    You do accept black/Asian priests-popes.
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  • @Rosamond Vincy
    I believe in the Resurrection of the body and life everlasting, so the worms can nibble away.

    That was beautifully filmed and acted. Did you catch the strains of Tchaikovsky's "Arabian Dance" from Nutcracker in the incidental music?

    I've heard that many Muslims had about as much respect for the NOI as Hindus had for the Hare Krishnas who used to haunt college campuses. Neither troubled to study the religion before adopting its trappings.

    I believe in the Resurrection of the body and life everlasting, so the worms can nibble away.

    Exactly – all those things we thought were so important will be buried in the dirt; then it’s on to what we believed and how we conducted ourselves.

    Did you catch the strains of Tchaikovsky’s “Arabian Dance” from Nutcracker in the incidental music?

    No, I hadn’t – thanks!

    I’ve heard that many Muslims had about as much respect for the NOI as Hindus had for the Hare Krishnas who used to haunt college campuses. Neither troubled to study the religion before adopting its trappings.

    Exactly. My wife – who is a White convert (raised in an irreligious family) – told me that all she knew about Islam growing up was what people from the NOI had said; the White man is the devil. In fact, some Blacks in her high school actually told that to her face. It is a fortunate thing that she found out the correct doctrine when she attended UCLA (which is where we met).

    I know another brother (also a White convert) who actually wanted to join the NOI, because that’s all he had been exposed to about Islam, and they outright rejected him because…well, you know. Again, he eventually found out what mainstream Sunni Islam was about and got on board.

    As for the NOI itself, the late Warith Deen Muhammad (son of Elijah Muhammad) completely broke with the teachings of his father and took the majority of the congregation with him when they transitioned into Sunni Islam – it was probably one of the biggest mass conversions in recent history.

    At least they aren’t as bad as the BlackStones (a street gang whose name was inspired by the Black Stone in the Kaabah):

    https://chicagoganghistory.com/gang/almighty-black-p-stones/

    And they do make some very serious bean pies – highly, highly recommended. Any time I came by one of them selling them, I’d pick one up.

    So this thing you are talking about – repelling people from the faith is a very real phenomenon.

    Peace.

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