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    In recent months, especially with the accession to the presidency of Donald Trump, there has been renewed talk, serious talk, ironic talk, about secession—particularly, from zealously Leftist anti-Trump militants in California and along the Pacific Rim areas of the United States. Advocates of what is called “Cal-exit” make their case that California, specifically, is not...
  • @szopen

    Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks all speak the same language
     
    It's more complicated than that. There are several dialects in ex-Yugoslavia, crossing through the ethnic lines. The are three dialects in Croatia, and I was told that one (official language) is almost same as Serbian, while two others are as different as almost a different language. If some Croat is here, he could confirm.

    If some Croat is here, he could confirm.

    I am a Croat – though, this reply is a bit belated, as I see. So, a few points: “Serbo-Croatian” language never existed, it was a political construct. A language can be seen either as a set of dialects or a standard language.

    Croatian, as a set of dialects, is comprised of three major groups, with regard to pronoun for Latin “quid”- kajkavian, čakavian and štokavian. Serbian language consists of two sets of dialects, štokavian and torlak. Dialectal basis of standard Croatian & standard Serbian is almost the same, neo-štokavian (n Croatian case, it is western štokavian, in Serbian- eastern štokavian).

    Croatian & Serbian standard languages are mutually intelligible to a very high degree because their basis & most of the ordinary dictionary belong to the same speech area. Just, they are not variants of a single language (unlike, say, British and American English) because their standardization processes differed & they had never been either unified or crystallized around the same cultural axis. The closest analogue is the case with Hindi and Urdu languages, which are based on khariboli dialect, but are different languages because their forms are expressions of Hindu & Muslim cultures.

    Croatian & Serbian differ in scientific & cultural terminology & at all levels of linguistics, from accentuation, word-formation, syntax, stylistics, vocabulary & semantics. They are almost completely mutually intelligible at basic level & at the same time, clearly different. You can’t write a few sentences without noticing it is either in Croatian or in Serbian. As for language competency, most Croats don’t know Serbian terminology in physics, chemistry, mathematics, sociology, philosophy, astronomy, linguistics, geography, biology, medicine,…(and vice versa).

    So, these are closely related fully dressed languages, while Bosniak/Bosnian & Montenegrin are just now taking form on the same or similar dialectal basis, neo-štokavian.

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  • Spanish Occupation Government strikes back! So as you're probably aware, The Unz Review had a prolonged server crash. The data was unrecoverable, so Ron had to revert to an earlier backup, losing about a day's worth of comments. Apologies about that, but really, it's GoDaddy's fault. None of us are very happy with them. One...
  • Hey, can someone tell me whether the following was a well known joke?

    A Jew is trying to leave the USSR to go to Israel. So he visits the relevant office to be interviewed by the official in charge.

    SOVIET OFFICIAL: Oh look, another Jew who wants to leave. Do you have any idea how many Jews like you come here wanting to leave the Soviet Union? And you’re all worried about one thing!

    JEW: Actually, I’m worried about two things.

    SOVIET OFFICIAL: Yeah, but the one thing you have in common is you’re all worried that the Soviet Union might come to and end and we’re going to go back to the bad old days of pogroms and anti-semitism.

    JEW: Well, yes, that is one of the things I’m worried about.

    SOVIET OFFICIAL: You don’t have to worry about that! Let me assure you, our workers’ paradise is going to last for all eternity!

    JEW: That’s the other thing I’m worried about.

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  • @Brabantian
    For keeping one's own comments etc, what can be helpful is a simple text file, not the big, messy, memory-sucking Microsoft Word type, but the much simpler WordPad (found under 'Accessories' or similar in Windows), or the Mac equivalent ... WordPad is an optimum type of file for drafting before you post, as well as preserving for afterwards

    ---
    On Catalonia ... 'Cowardly Carles' Puigdemont the Catalonian 'head of state' ... who led around 900 of his people into getting their heads beaten in & bodies broken by Spanish police ... has just fled to Brussels, apparently with several other Catalan leaders, & is apparently planning to ask for asylum in Belgium, after just a weekend of 'independence' & apparently doing little for his new 'country' except acting to save himself

    Reminds me of how in mid-1939, the strongman ruler of Poland, Marshal Edward Rydz-Śmigły, was quite cocky & foolishly arrogant with Adolf Hitler, emboldened by a 'defence treaty' the Poles had just signed with Britain ... and then when Hitler invaded, Rydz-Śmigły fled to Romania, abandoning his fellow Poles to their fate under occupation

    ---
    On a lighter note ... on Anatoly Karlin's turf, young female Russian protester 'Anna Boni Lu' mounts an eye-catching protest on the St Petersburg metro platforms ... she is protesting how males like to look up women's skirts ... 'protesting' by lifting up her own hemline repeatedly, knickers (panties) showing to amuse the metro travellers
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHi8PHR387c&t=0m58s
    Also in female SJW protest-by-stripping news, Femen protested in Paris against Roman Polanski on Monday, but displayed a clever acronym befitting our times, 'VIP = Very Important Paedo-criminal'
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/31295ff54a850bde143a9435669f639594eec2e8e0e9efad98bd97f9cb0a76c3.jpg

    That underwear isn’t sexy.

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  • OT: Putin: Someone is harvesting Russian bio samples for obscure purposes

    https://www.rt.com/news/408274-putin-bio-samples-harvesting/

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  • @Brabantian
    For keeping one's own comments etc, what can be helpful is a simple text file, not the big, messy, memory-sucking Microsoft Word type, but the much simpler WordPad (found under 'Accessories' or similar in Windows), or the Mac equivalent ... WordPad is an optimum type of file for drafting before you post, as well as preserving for afterwards

    ---
    On Catalonia ... 'Cowardly Carles' Puigdemont the Catalonian 'head of state' ... who led around 900 of his people into getting their heads beaten in & bodies broken by Spanish police ... has just fled to Brussels, apparently with several other Catalan leaders, & is apparently planning to ask for asylum in Belgium, after just a weekend of 'independence' & apparently doing little for his new 'country' except acting to save himself

    Reminds me of how in mid-1939, the strongman ruler of Poland, Marshal Edward Rydz-Śmigły, was quite cocky & foolishly arrogant with Adolf Hitler, emboldened by a 'defence treaty' the Poles had just signed with Britain ... and then when Hitler invaded, Rydz-Śmigły fled to Romania, abandoning his fellow Poles to their fate under occupation

    ---
    On a lighter note ... on Anatoly Karlin's turf, young female Russian protester 'Anna Boni Lu' mounts an eye-catching protest on the St Petersburg metro platforms ... she is protesting how males like to look up women's skirts ... 'protesting' by lifting up her own hemline repeatedly, knickers (panties) showing to amuse the metro travellers
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHi8PHR387c&t=0m58s
    Also in female SJW protest-by-stripping news, Femen protested in Paris against Roman Polanski on Monday, but displayed a clever acronym befitting our times, 'VIP = Very Important Paedo-criminal'
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/31295ff54a850bde143a9435669f639594eec2e8e0e9efad98bd97f9cb0a76c3.jpg

    Hey Anna, wash it not air it!

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  • For keeping one’s own comments etc, what can be helpful is a simple text file, not the big, messy, memory-sucking Microsoft Word type, but the much simpler WordPad (found under ‘Accessories’ or similar in Windows), or the Mac equivalent … WordPad is an optimum type of file for drafting before you post, as well as preserving for afterwards


    On Catalonia … ‘Cowardly Carles’ Puigdemont the Catalonian ‘head of state’ … who led around 900 of his people into getting their heads beaten in & bodies broken by Spanish police … has just fled to Brussels, apparently with several other Catalan leaders, & is apparently planning to ask for asylum in Belgium, after just a weekend of ‘independence’ & apparently doing little for his new ‘country’ except acting to save himself

    Reminds me of how in mid-1939, the strongman ruler of Poland, Marshal Edward Rydz-Śmigły, was quite cocky & foolishly arrogant with Adolf Hitler, emboldened by a ‘defence treaty’ the Poles had just signed with Britain … and then when Hitler invaded, Rydz-Śmigły fled to Romania, abandoning his fellow Poles to their fate under occupation


    On a lighter note … on Anatoly Karlin’s turf, young female Russian protester ‘Anna Boni Lu’ mounts an eye-catching protest on the St Petersburg metro platforms … she is protesting how males like to look up women’s skirts … ‘protesting’ by lifting up her own hemline repeatedly, knickers (panties) showing to amuse the metro travellers

    Also in female SJW protest-by-stripping news, Femen protested in Paris against Roman Polanski on Monday, but displayed a clever acronym befitting our times, ‘VIP = Very Important Paedo-criminal’

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    • Replies: @utu
    Hey Anna, wash it not air it!
    , @Daniel Chieh
    That underwear isn't sexy.
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  • Catalonia, in the southeastern corner of Spain, is in the news.[Catalonia Government Declares Overwhelming Vote for Independence, by Raphael Minder, NYT, Oct 6, 2017] I was there once, back in my salad days, on my way to a camping vacation down the coast at a sleepy little whitewashed village named Oropesa del Mar, now all...
  • It’s not at all clear how Madrid’s planned direct rule (light version) is going to work.

    With 450.000 pro-independence supporters in the streets of Barcelona (Sat. 21st Oct.) how are Madrid appointees going to be able to run the Catalan administration? No doubt they’ll be blocked, even if they make it into their offices.

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  • In recent months, especially with the accession to the presidency of Donald Trump, there has been renewed talk, serious talk, ironic talk, about secession—particularly, from zealously Leftist anti-Trump militants in California and along the Pacific Rim areas of the United States. Advocates of what is called “Cal-exit” make their case that California, specifically, is not...
  • @hyperbola
    Most participants here will know virtually nothing about Spain, Catalonia, or even successful confederal models in Europe. Long, complicated topics, so I will make only a few short comments here.

    1. The present spanish monarchy essentially involved a murderous dictator designating a king. A poisonous contradiction (restoring a monarchy) was mostly accepted to escape from the murderous dictatorship. There are “republicans” who would like to end the monarchy throughout Spain, including Catalonia. The issue of constitutional reform is now on the table and the Spanish would be wise to get rid of such an anachronism. The country has suffered every time that it has had foreigners as kings, starting with the “germans” Carlos I and Carlos II who bled Spaniards for numerous wars in Europe. The present royal family is of French (the Borbons) and German (Schleswig-Holstein Sonderburg-Glücksburg) ancestry. The grandmother of the present king (Felipe VI) can be seen (together with her brothers) dressed in the uniform of the Hitler Youth in numerous web sites.

    2. Cataluña is not the only area of Spain that “rebels” against right-wing, centralized control. Similar sentiments are present (to more or less degree) in Pais Vasco, Galicia, Valencia, Baleares, Canarias, …. Spain has a centuries long history of failing to deal with the pluri-national nature of the country and seems to be failing once again.

    3. There are models of pluri-national confederations/nations that are exemplary instances of how to deal with such problems. Switzerland is perhaps the best known. The “Eidgenossenschaft” (confederation) of the german-speaking areas dates from about 1250 and initially involved seven independent countries, each of which retained its own sovereignity. The model was soon after copied in the french- and italian-speaking areas of modern Switzerland. The present confederation includes 27 kantons (the federal constitution guarantees that they remain sovereign nations, i.e. in principle can withdraw) and 4 different languages. The Kantons retain power over taxes, education, welfare, citizenship, ….. Direct democracy reigns at both the national and kantonal level, i.e. citizens can reject/initiate laws by referendum, including kantonal/national taxation/expenditure.

    4. Spain actually has a mixed system in which certain “autonomia” (states – Pais Vasco, Navarra, Aragon) have a status somewhat like Kantons in Switzerland, e.g. a separate status with regard to taxation.

    Probably the best thing that Spain could do would be to copy the Swiss model and get rid of the monarchy. Probably even Cataluña could be convinced to join such a model.

    Hiperbola You seem to know things about Spain but halfway . The referendum you mention was a joke , it was invalid and illegal , there were not even a list of voters , many people voted 6 and more times and in many villages there were more votes than inhabitants of the village .

    Catalans are supremacists , they think they are superior to the rest of Spain , and even to most of the world .

    Who are you to advice Spain to follow the swiss model ? we are not swiss , who are you to advice Spain to get rid of the monarchy ? , come on , we in Spain do not give a damm for the swiss model ( do you mind the banking model ? ) , and we do not like foreigners giving us advices we did not ask .

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  • The recent referenda in Catalonia and Kurdistan, while by no means crucial developments for Russia, have resulted in a lively debate in the Russian media and the Russian public opinion. The Kremlin itself has refrained from making any strong statements, possibly indicating that there might be several schools of thought on these issues in key...
  • “Russia has nothing to gain by supporting what is clearly a US-Israeli project aimed at destabilizing the entire region.”

    I cannot believe that the Saker (or whoever) wrote that. How about this?: The project to create a viable state for the world’s largest stateless minority is a 100-percent Kurdish project. The Kurds have been fighting for their independence for over 100 years. (Yes, the division within the Kurds is suicidal, but the passion for independence is the same as that of any minority or majority yearning for freedom.)

    Politics is the art of the expedient (odious, though, it is to me). If the Kurds find that the only country, and a very powerful at that, is willing to help them, then, I say, why not? Why shouldn’t the Kurds refuse Israeli help just because the Saker and almost everybody else these days hates Israel for good or bad reasons?

    By the way didn’t the Russians once help establish an independent Kurdish republic? Yes, helping the Kurds now is politically difficult for the Kremlin, but the least the Russians should do is remain silent on the issue.

    I think that the Kurds have every right to do whatever is politically expedient to create an independent state carved out of not only Iraq, but also Iran, Syria, and particularly Turkey. Yes, this means war and carnage. Well, what’s the alternative? Slavery for another 100 years?

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  • Catalonia, in the southeastern corner of Spain, is in the news.[Catalonia Government Declares Overwhelming Vote for Independence, by Raphael Minder, NYT, Oct 6, 2017] I was there once, back in my salad days, on my way to a camping vacation down the coast at a sleepy little whitewashed village named Oropesa del Mar, now all...
  • Give California back to Mexico.
    Then all illegals could be more easily deported to California

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  • @Sean
    John Gray review of a book I am getting ASAP

    Forgetfulness: the dangers of a modern culture that wages war on its own past
    In the 18th and 19th centuries, Whig history meant history written as a story of continuing improvement. Today, it means history written as an exercise in reproach and accusation in which universal human evils are represented as being exclusively the products of Western power.Today, disparaging the past is a mark of intellectual respectability. Anyone who believes that history involves loss as well as gain is reactionary: “The preference among liberal intellectuals is for a new kind of Whig history – one where the past is to be surveyed primarily to expose its failings…

    ”This concept of mutual-harmony-with-identity is sometimes joined in the minds of the most extreme liberal intellectuals with bolder arguments that “national” and “cultural identity” are myths, forms of false consciousness, or divisive ideological too
     

     
    But Gray's review and the book itself point to a far right backlash as the ultimate danger "there has been a “revival of intolerance and, in some cases, literally of fascism”, including “the direct affirmation of Nazi ideology recast in versions of White Supremacy".

    Of course.

    And, as soon as they “mark” the opposition as Nazi/Racist, well, all means are allowed to defeat that Great Evil.

    But, there lies the conundrum for powers that be.

    The mechanism of the state in West is manned, fundamentally, by very those people who are seen by harboring those ideas.
    And, when they “diversify” the forces that very mechanism loses its efficiency.
    On top of it they put so many “check and balances” on the mechanism so it becomes even more inefficient.

    So…they do need a mechanism, but, at the same time they work hard on making that mechanism ineffective.

    That’s why they put more technology there. But…well….to properly maintain and use that technology one has to be smart and hard working enough. Forced diversity makes that difficult.
    At the same time messing up that technology is not that hard.

    So, we do live in interesting times.
    BTW, we are, IMHO, getting off the topic here.

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  • @peterAUS

    The coming technological bonanza will probably make it feasible to feed and support people even without any effort from their side. Yet such a development would deal a mortal blow to the liberal belief in the sacredness of human life and of human experiences. What’s so sacred about useless bums who pass their days devouring artificial experiences?.
     
    Agree.

    Quite a lot will prefer to fight, and die.
     
    Could be.
    The problem, should it happen, would be effectiveness of that "fight and die".

    Zulus at Ulundi?
    Japanese banzai assaults?

    More pertinent, insurrections against Soviet/Communist rule in Eastern Europe after WW2.
    Or, at the other side of the coin, Greek Communists after WW2.
    Etc...etc....plenty of examples, but let's not get bogged into history.

    Two great minds tried to address the issue. Orwell and Huxley.
    I believe we are looking at beginnings of some sort of "solution" as we speak.
    A combination of both.
    Strong stick with some carrot. Leaning more on the stick side.

    I believe that some sort of dystopian future (for, say, 80 % of population) is the most likely scenario.
    Unless something.....extraordinary....happens.

    John Gray review of a book I am getting ASAP

    Forgetfulness: the dangers of a modern culture that wages war on its own past
    In the 18th and 19th centuries, Whig history meant history written as a story of continuing improvement. Today, it means history written as an exercise in reproach and accusation in which universal human evils are represented as being exclusively the products of Western power.Today, disparaging the past is a mark of intellectual respectability. Anyone who believes that history involves loss as well as gain is reactionary: “The preference among liberal intellectuals is for a new kind of Whig history – one where the past is to be surveyed primarily to expose its failings…

    ”This concept of mutual-harmony-with-identity is sometimes joined in the minds of the most extreme liberal intellectuals with bolder arguments that “national” and “cultural identity” are myths, forms of false consciousness, or divisive ideological too

    But Gray’s review and the book itself point to a far right backlash as the ultimate danger “there has been a “revival of intolerance and, in some cases, literally of fascism”, including “the direct affirmation of Nazi ideology recast in versions of White Supremacy”.

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    • Replies: @peterAUS
    Of course.

    And, as soon as they "mark" the opposition as Nazi/Racist, well, all means are allowed to defeat that Great Evil.

    But, there lies the conundrum for powers that be.

    The mechanism of the state in West is manned, fundamentally, by very those people who are seen by harboring those ideas.
    And, when they "diversify" the forces that very mechanism loses its efficiency.
    On top of it they put so many "check and balances" on the mechanism so it becomes even more inefficient.

    So...they do need a mechanism, but, at the same time they work hard on making that mechanism ineffective.

    That's why they put more technology there. But...well....to properly maintain and use that technology one has to be smart and hard working enough. Forced diversity makes that difficult.
    At the same time messing up that technology is not that hard.

    So, we do live in interesting times.
    BTW, we are, IMHO, getting off the topic here.

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  • @Carroll Price
    If the San Andres Fault were to open and separate California from the mainland, would it not then become a foreign nation by default?

    No.

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  • @Carroll Price
    Spanish is a wonderful language we should all learn.

    A lot of wonderful languages. I enjoy picking which one to learn, not “needing” to know another one in what was my own country.

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  • In recent months, especially with the accession to the presidency of Donald Trump, there has been renewed talk, serious talk, ironic talk, about secession—particularly, from zealously Leftist anti-Trump militants in California and along the Pacific Rim areas of the United States. Advocates of what is called “Cal-exit” make their case that California, specifically, is not...
  • @The Alarmist
    With respect to Northern California, the author misses the obvious precedent of West Virginia, which in 1861 was carved out of the western parts of a recently seceded Virginia.

    “Yet, far inland areas, mountainous regions of the state, populated by descendants of the rugged gold seekers, the Forty-Niners of 1848-1849, remain conservative.”

    This descendant of a family that arrived in Yerba Buena Ca in the 1830′s from Boston can tell you that the above sentence is totally wrong and ignorant. The people in Modoc, Shasta and all those other Northern and Eastern areas are not at all conservative. yes, they hunt and eat what they hunt. The have guns. They maintain their wells and have generators. They are real men.

    But they mostly lead a hippie lifestyle and grow weed the state’s biggest crop. The descendants of the 49ers are mostly in Central California and the Bay Area, not up in Modoc and Humboldt counties.

    The author knows nothing about the people of N California and the gold rush descendants. The N California counties like the rest of the state are getting more and more and more hispanic. And counties who are as dependent on weed as Kansas and Nebraska are on wheat and corn arfe not natural conservatives.

    Im not driving down to the Stanford library to read about the history of Catalonia. But from what I remember, the author has many facts about the history of Catalonia wrong. But I do know about the gold rush descendants of the northern weed growing counties in California and the author is dead wrong about us. I’m an extreme White nationalist but that is not a conservative position. The rest of the northern eastern mountain counties are even more liberal than most because of how they make their living and a 3rd generation hippy lifestyle.

    It’s interesting reading articles about things with which one is very familiar. Makes one wonder if any of these authors and experts and pundits and pontificators know what they are writing about.

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  • @jilles dykstra
    Gerald Brenan, ´The Spanish Labyrinth, an Account of the Social and Political Background of the Spanish Civil War’, Cambridge, 1960
    The writer shows that Spain never was a nation.
    It resembles the Habsburg empire, or Yougoslavia

    That’s the author’s opinion and probably yours. It’s not exactly the truth.

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  • @Jo King
    «1258. Thus, for eight centuries the region has been united with Spain».
    This is completly false, Spain simply HAS NOT 8 centuries of existence, learn History first, wright after. americans and History, what a difficult relation.

    Spain finally aquired Catalonia permanently in the 1630′s after a territory swap with the French at the conclusion of one of their numerous wars. But it was sometimes a fief of the King of Spain before that.

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  • @Wally
    'Elite' states secede? Could be interesting.

    - 45% of California, for example, is Federal land.

    - Without US taxpayers money CA would be a 3rd world country completely filled with unemployable & dumb illegal immigrants.

    - Think about this brief list made possible by the US taxpayers / federal government, money CA would not get and then tens of thousands of CA people would lose their jobs (= lost CA tax revenues):

    aerospace contracts, defense contracts, fed gov, software contracts, fed gov airplane orders, bases, ports, money for illegal aliens costs, federal monies for universities, ‘affirmative action monies, section 8 housing money, monies for highways, monies for ‘mass transportation’, monies to fight crime, monies from the EPA for streams & lakes, monies from the Nat. Park Service, monies for healthcare, monies for freeloading welfare recipients, and all this is just the tip of the iceberg

    - Not to mention the numerous counties in CA which will not want to be part of the laughable ‘Peoples Republic of California’.

    - And imagine the ‘Peoples Republic of California Army’, hilarious.

    Peoples Republic Army of California, good one ha ha ha ha. I understand the hispanics are pretty good as support troops. But the prospect is hilarious. Imagine the San Francisco National Guard of Chinese who hate and refuse to cooperate with any government since 4,000 BC

    And the Armenians and Persians and Russians who invaded S. California to get away from the draft back home. And the Russian, Persian Armenian Indian and Asian suppliers.

    It will be like the civil war when the boot and saddle and horse tack factories just glued sheets of cardboard together and passed it off as leather which melted in the first rain.

    No one I know seems even aware of the secession movement. But then everyone I know is gainfully employed and busy with home maintaince and family. But if anyone presents me with a secession petition I’ll just say, “secession was tried once and resulted in massive military defeat and 100 years of poverty and exploitation.” Of course the people running around with the petitions probably never heard of the War of Northern Aggression

    The fires aren’t even out yet and the liberals are whining that Trump isn;t even helping. While I’m up north I think I’ll write a letter to the San Francisco Chronicle stating why Trump should let California rot.

    One good thing about the fire. it totally destroyed the Pelosi illegal immigrant aristocratic landholdings in the Napa wine and resort area. She and Paul have about 300 million invested up there and it has all been destroyed. ha ha ha. But the insurance will pay for it. And insurance payments are not taxed so they will probably make out better than if they sold their plantation worked by illegals.

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  • @animalogic
    "I’m neutral but Murray seems to be an ideologue.... He even claims today’s Spaniards had Muslim ancestors, a typical leftist talking point."
    Maybe he is an ideologue, but you certainly are.
    Although I guess the practice of history is itself typically leftist.
    Imagine claiming that modern Spaniards may have Muslim ancestors when Muslim's controlled much of Spain (in ever decreasing area) from 711AD to 1492. I wonder whether a few drops or more of Muslim/Arabic blood my snuck into all that European blood over the course of 100's of years ?

    There are hundreds of millions of descendants of the many English Kings who married Spanish princesses and the ladies who accompanied those Princesses all over the English speaking world. So I guess all we anglo saxons have a touch of the Catholic religion and the non existent black muslim tarbrush.

    Most of those Spanish royalty were red heads and blondes by the way. What’s wrong with those casting directors who cast actresses who look like black haired Arabs as Katherine of Aragon and Queen Anne, Louis 13 of France’s wife?

    Allegedly the muslim expansionists believe that because much of Spain was muslim colonies at one time, the muslims have the right to reconquer it. At least 711 to 1492 the rest of Europe applauded and appreciated Spain’s fight against the muslims.

    But now the EU which pretty much replaced the Holy Roman Austrian Empire Catholic Church in ruling Europe welcomes the muslim invaders.

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  • @Old Palo Altan
    Absolutely.
    That half-witted cousin of the brilliant Wilhelm II, George V, came back from a visit to Germany in 1913 and feverishly harangued the Prime Minister to the effect that an excuse for war needed to be found, and found quickly. Otherwise, he thought, the industrious and intelligent Germans would soon replace the British Empire with their own.
    The tragic assassination of the very promising Franz Ferdinand was not a cause of the war, but merely a timely excuse.

    I’ve read that the level of state public education was so low in 1900 Britain that business had to import very ordinary clerks and office boys from Germany and France because they could read, write legibly and do basic book keeping. Allegedly the standard British kid who had to leave school after 6th grade didn’t have these skills which the German, French, Dutch, Belgium 12 and 13 year olds had I don’t know if it’s true and can’t remember where I read it.

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  • @for-the-record
    He [Murray] even claims today’s Spaniards had Muslim ancestors, a typical leftist talking point.

    I'm not sure exactly what Murray said, but he's certainly right that there is a significant African (Muslim) element in Spanish ancestry. Hence the (formerly) common expression "Africa begins at the Pyrenees", popularized by the (now "discredited") American economist and racial theorist William Zebina Ripley (1867-1941).

    Iberia stands out among other southern European populations as having the highest levels of ancestry originating in North Africa as well as in Sub-Saharan Africa, with the concentration of both being highest on the western and southern parts of the peninsula, which is largely ascribed to the long Islamic presence in the Iberian peninsula and possibly African slavery.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula
     

    Beyond the Pyrenees begins Africa. Once that natural barrier is crossed, the Mediterranean racial type in all its purity confronts us. The human phenomena is entirely parallel with the sudden transition to the flora and fauna of the south. The Iberian population thus isolated from the rest of Europe, are allied in all important anthropological respects with the peoples inhabiting Africa north of the Sahara, from the Red Sea to the Atlantic.

    William Z. Ripley, The Races of Europe: A Sociological Study, 1899
     

    Mr. Ripley probably didn’t realize that the “Africans” who invaded Spain consisted of Jewish and Berber muslim tribes, not black African tribes.

    The slaves in muslim Spain were White Spanish, specifically; skilled crafts and trades men and 10 to 14 year old girls. They were sold to the Muslims across the mediterreanean. They also stayed in Spain and worked for their muslim owners.

    Moor means Moroccan, not a black African There are probably a lot more founding stock White southerners who have a touch of the tarbrush, 5 or 10 percent black DNA than Spanish.

    Guess Mr. Ripley didn’t know that the black african negro africans live south of the sahara and the caucasian africans live north of the sahara. Although the caucasian africans made the great mistake of bringing black negro africans to their lands just as the English who settled America did.

    Did Ripley every go to Spain? Or did he think that every black haired person in the world is part black?

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  • @Brooklyn Dave
    The first question I would ask: what are the politics of those hwo propose independence for Catalunya? Are they Marxists? Are they Anarchists? Are they just plain old nationalists? I would say that the heavy handed actions of the Spanish police left a bad taste in the mouths of most people, but that bad taste does not transfers into automatic support for independence. Spain today is not the Spain of Francisco Franco. Culturally, the Catalans can condut their affairs in their own language, as can the Basques and others. A breakup of Spain into mini-states would allow an even more overreaching EU to dominate the affairs of the individual nations even more so. United the Spaniards can at least say no to the EU, broken up they haven't a chance. I said the same thing about Scottish independence.

    Too much belief in liberal propaganda. Francisco Franco successfully fought and got rid of the Soviet Union communists who arrived in Spain 1934, killed all the socialists of the socialist government and went on the same kind of killing spree the communists did when they took over Russia. Can’t defeat communists by being nice.

    Franco and his soldiers kicked the communist Russians out of Spain and killed a lot of them in the process. He is a great hero

    Do you realize that before 1990, only 2 countries, Finland and Spain resisted and kicked the genocidal soviets out of their countries?

    Stop reading liberal propaganda.

    Other than the misconception about General Franco, your comment is the best I have read on the subject anywhere? United with Spain Catalonia can resist the EU. Standing alone they won’t be able too unless they go back to medieval times when independent Catalonia was a major power in S. Europe.

    I just googled WHY Catalonian independence and got nothing about why and what they hope to achieve

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  • @Daniel H
    Excellent political essay on early modern Spain and the limited powers of the King and the jealously guarded rights, freedoms and customs of the various countries under his dominion. Early modern Spain had more democratic rights and freedoms from arbitrary power than England of the time, and just about any other European state, notwithstanding all the Anglophile rubbish we have been taught in school and propagandized on since.

    To give an idea of the limited powers of the the most powerful monarch in the world at the time, King Phillip II of Spain (and many other dominions) consult this essay on Antonio Perez, once the King's closest confident and later a dangerous enemy. The linked essay relates all the interesting details, which I won't go into, but what stands out is that Antonio Perez escaped from custody in Madrid, where he was on trial for a capital crime, that Philip II very much wanted pursued. With aides and sympathizers he escaped from jail, secured horses and rode all night to the border of Aragon (part of present day Catalonia). At the Aragon border Phillip's guards stopped their pursuit because warrants issued in Castille had no currency of law in Aragon. If Phillip II wanted to arrest Antonio Perez in Aragon he would have to go through the Aragon legal system to secure a warrant. This, of course, took time and before any action could be taken Antonio Perez had crossed the border into France, where he lived out his natural life.

    Compare this to the brutal and arbitrary rule of Henry VIII, a near contemporary of Phillip II (Philipp II married Henry's daughter, Mary, sister of Elizabeth I) who had many of his subjects arbitrarily murdered with the compliance of the English judiciary with nary a peep from parliament.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_P%C3%A9rez_(statesman)

    Henry personally signed 72,000 execution warrants, That included most of his relatives on his Mother’s York side. the rest were just random people who said Latin prayers. Henry 8 spent the fortune left to him by his Beaufort grandmother and his father. He was going bankrupt when he decided to found his own church.

    Thomas Cromwell saved the finances of the Kingdom by confiscating Catholic church property. Many historians above the middle school wikepedia level believe Cromwell engineered the death of Anne Boleyn because of the financial problems. Anne wanted the confiscated church property to be used for roads and bridges and hospitals and charities that the Catholics had been doing for centuries, not sold to aristocrats to build bigger palaces. But Cromwell engineered her death and he and Henry closed down the existing charities, stopped maintaining the roads and bridges and henry had more money to spend on $5,ooo a yard fabrics and more and bigger palaces.

    Read about the murder of the Duke of Buckingham and Princess Margaret de la Pole Countess of Salisbury who had much , much better rights to the throne than Henry 7 and 8. Henry 8 was more like Stalin than any 16 century European King. He kept his sister Margaret Tudor, Queen of Scotland’s children in the tower most of their lives.

    When Henry died, the entire country, especially the military, aristocracy, clergy and gentry breathed a sigh of relief. In the 1540′s he forbade reading of the English or Latin bible because only he, Henry the great could interpete the bible. Lots of protestants were executed for reading the bible after that decree.

    All you anti Catholic bigots should read about what Henry did to Protestants. He burned them rather than hanged them, a far worse death. I believe England is the only country in the wold and always has been the only country in the world where the head of state is also the head of the state religion. And they don’t even go to clergy school and become clergy. Even the strictest muslim countries always have separate heads of state and heads of religion

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  • @An Observer
    Being from Quebec I think I know a thing or two about referenda for independence, having gone through the 1980 and 1995 ones. When the movement for Quebec independence emerged in the 1960's the Canadian government, itself just recently emancipated from British rules by the Statutes of Westminster in 1931 but still dominated by imperial thinking, reacted with a heavy hand. Under pressure from the rest of the country (and perhaps from foreign chancelleries), it conflated the generally pacific and conservative Quebec population with highly marginal groups promoting social changes through violent actions, and used it as pretext to briefly impose martial laws on the Province in 1970. At the time I was at a boarding school north of Montreal run by the Marist Brothers, hardly a revolutionary hotbed, and vividly remember to this day the reaction of our class advisor on the news. He was outraged by this wide brushing move by the Canadian government. He said to us, his 12, 13 year-old pupils, "take your freedom and throw it in the paper basket on you way out of class. You have none anymore!". I am not aware of any parents who protested to the school about his outburst. This action only led to the election in 1976 of a party promoting independence. An idea originally supported, pacifically, by a small proportion of the population had become mainstream, an unintended consequence of the action of the central government. The referendum of 1980 was however lost by the promoters of independence by a significant margin .

    There are clearly some parallels to draw with the attitude of the Spanish government in the current Catalan crisis.

    Now on with the rest of the story. Ignoring language, the Quebec movement for independence have different drivers than its Catalonian counterpart. Also, the descendants of the French settlers who colonized the Saint-Lawrence valley, forming a majority in Quebec and important minorities elsewhere in the country, have a greater influence on Canadian politics than the Catalans appear to have in federal Spain. One just have to consult the list of Canadian Prime Ministers since the formation of the Confederation; 8 out of 23 are from this group, including the current one. This influence, combined with a certain sympathy in English Canada toward the Quebec movement, helped the central government devising a vastly different strategy for the 1995 referendum (it would require more paragraphs to explain the resurgence of the separatist movements in the 1990's). That time, independence was rejected by the slightest margin, equivalent to a few ten thousands voters over a population of 7.5 millions. Yet, beside some disputable rhetoric, the Canadian government never threatened the use of force in case of a positive result, nor made any move to contest the legality of the vote. It served its cause in my opinion.

    All this led to a rather ironical situation. Beside Newfoundland in 1949, Quebec is the only population ever consulted on its belonging to the Canadian Confederation. And it acquiesced to it not only once, but twice! (The formation of the Confederation in 1867 was largely an imperial affair, concluded behind closed doors shortly after the Secession War to prevent the North American British colonies to be engulfed piecemeal by the U.S.). To this day the independence movement remains an important political force in Quebec but there is currently no third referendum in sight. This can be explained by a strong desire for appeasement coming from all sides following the nail biting results of 1995, resulting in a change of attitude from the central government. It is also explained, principally in my mind, by the fact that the traditional economical inferiority of French speakers, having its origin in the British conquest of 1760, has largely subsided since. This inferiority has disappeared slowly starting from the 1950's. Contrary to the Catalonian separatism, this was a main driver for the Quebec one.

    Thanks for a comment by someone who knows what he is writing about.

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  • @Anon
    1. Not Russia per se but the USSR. Normally a pedantic note, but nowadays...

    2. Muslim entities just don't have that kind of clout, not even the Saudis.

    Ok, I’ll try to use USSR from now on to avoid insulting the real Russians.

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  • @Andrei Martyanov

    The coastal elite, having financialized everything in the American economy worth financializing
     
    Agree. But then again, we live in the world where Facebook "capitalization" is several times larger than that of Boeing, which provides half of the world with needed actual high-tech products. B-787 is a marvel. We have Tesla which is one of the most outstanding (together with Musk's "Mars mission") frauds in history. A madhouse. But while agreeing with you in principle, I also have to make some clarifications, I also observed how many, namely from logging industry on the West Coast didn't want to take new opportunities, granted paying less than their logging professions, to turn their life around. The opportunities were there, they just refused. Opportunities were in aerospace, in excellent Air Washington Program (I took advantage of it to get some CNC courses for general horizons expansion) , granted that it required math and more brain-work than usually is required from logging. But no, they just wanted it the way they wanted it. Knowing how logging worked on the West Coast I kinda see why they wanted it back but it will never be back the way it was. Next step for them once it doesn't come back? Well, we have here a massive growth of pot dispensaries, that will take care of the labor force (bitter sarcasm).

    Didn’t the loggers who stayed in N. California go on welfare and start growing weed and become rich beyond their wildest dreams? Much better to be an inependent grower than an engineer or Boeing guy totally dependent on being hired and laid off and hours cut and overtime all dependent on what Boeing can get from governments and airlines. Plus having the EEOC and liberal attorneys tell your employer to fire you because they must hire some incompetent affirmative action hire.

    From the anthology of American Folk songs. Still brings tears to my eyes when I hear the Joan Baez version
    And these lines
    Get you a copper kettle
    Get you a copper coil My Daddy made liquor
    Get you some newmade corn mash Granpappy did too
    And never will you toil. We ain’t paid no Whiskey tax
    Since 1792

    Don’t forget, weed has been the biggest crop in California since 1980 just a few years after the liberals closed the logging business down. And it gets bigger and bigger every year and is one of the very few occupations open to the Whites whose ancestors walked over the mountains to settle this state

    I was pretty busy with babies and house and job when the liberals closed down the logging business in the 1970′s. Most were Jewish liberals and activists in various social justice causes, mostly let all the blacks out of prison and never arrest any more blacks no matter what they do.

    And those transplanted NYC rich young Jews absolutely danced for joy that the loggers, White goyim, married homeowners, Christian religion who took their kids to scouts and little league and all those petty bourgeious activities were going to lose their jobs.

    As I remember it, the job training money was for 5 years and then cut off. OK for the unmarried 25 year olds. But difficult for a married man who needed to move his wife and kids to expensive Seattle metro.

    Weed saved us. All hail weed I don’t know any growers and strippers who use it by the way. Good strippers can make 1,000 a day, tax free during harvest which comes 3 times a years.

    I remember the hippie days. We were sooo straight. House, kids, good careers. But the more I see of life in this anti White country of ours, the more I think a life on the edge is better than conformity and haveing the government and liberals shut down everything.

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  • Catalonia, in the southeastern corner of Spain, is in the news.[Catalonia Government Declares Overwhelming Vote for Independence, by Raphael Minder, NYT, Oct 6, 2017] I was there once, back in my salad days, on my way to a camping vacation down the coast at a sleepy little whitewashed village named Oropesa del Mar, now all...
  • @Sean

    https://ideas.ted.com/the-rise-of-the-useless-class/


    In September 2013, two Oxford researchers, Carl Benedikt Frey and Michael A. Osborne, published “The Future of Employment,” in which they surveyed the likelihood of different professions being taken over by computer algorithms within the next 20 years, and they estimated that 47 percent of US jobs are at high risk. For example, there is a 99 percent probability that by 2033 human telemarketers and insurance underwriters will lose their jobs to algorithms. There is a 98 percent probability that the same will happen to sports referees. Cashiers — 97 percent. Chefs — 96 percent. Waiters — 94 percent. Paralegals — 94 percent. Tour guides — 91 percent. Bakers — 89 percent. Bus drivers — 89 percent. Construction laborers — 88 percent. Veterinary assistants — 86 percent. Security guards — 84 percent. Sailors — 83 percent. Bartenders — 77 percent. Archivists — 76 percent. Carpenters — 72 percent. Lifeguards — 67 percent [,,,]

    The coming technological bonanza will probably make it feasible to feed and support people even without any effort from their side. Yet such a development would deal a mortal blow to the liberal belief in the sacredness of human life and of human experiences. What’s so sacred about useless bums who pass their days devouring artificial experiences?.
     

    Quite a lot will prefer to fight, and die.

    The coming technological bonanza will probably make it feasible to feed and support people even without any effort from their side. Yet such a development would deal a mortal blow to the liberal belief in the sacredness of human life and of human experiences. What’s so sacred about useless bums who pass their days devouring artificial experiences?.

    Agree.

    Quite a lot will prefer to fight, and die.

    Could be.
    The problem, should it happen, would be effectiveness of that “fight and die”.

    Zulus at Ulundi?
    Japanese banzai assaults?

    More pertinent, insurrections against Soviet/Communist rule in Eastern Europe after WW2.
    Or, at the other side of the coin, Greek Communists after WW2.
    Etc…etc….plenty of examples, but let’s not get bogged into history.

    Two great minds tried to address the issue. Orwell and Huxley.
    I believe we are looking at beginnings of some sort of “solution” as we speak.
    A combination of both.
    Strong stick with some carrot. Leaning more on the stick side.

    I believe that some sort of dystopian future (for, say, 80 % of population) is the most likely scenario.
    Unless something…..extraordinary….happens.

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    John Gray review of a book I am getting ASAP

    Forgetfulness: the dangers of a modern culture that wages war on its own past
    In the 18th and 19th centuries, Whig history meant history written as a story of continuing improvement. Today, it means history written as an exercise in reproach and accusation in which universal human evils are represented as being exclusively the products of Western power.Today, disparaging the past is a mark of intellectual respectability. Anyone who believes that history involves loss as well as gain is reactionary: “The preference among liberal intellectuals is for a new kind of Whig history – one where the past is to be surveyed primarily to expose its failings…

    ”This concept of mutual-harmony-with-identity is sometimes joined in the minds of the most extreme liberal intellectuals with bolder arguments that “national” and “cultural identity” are myths, forms of false consciousness, or divisive ideological too
     

     
    But Gray's review and the book itself point to a far right backlash as the ultimate danger "there has been a “revival of intolerance and, in some cases, literally of fascism”, including “the direct affirmation of Nazi ideology recast in versions of White Supremacy".
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  • @peterAUS

    The enemy of Western elites are the militarily and economically redundant masses, and immigration is a class war on the redundant mass. The immigrants are a political counterweight and maybe a reserve army for any popular uprising.
     
    Agree.
    Don't believe in 'popular uprising', but the rest is, IMHO, spot on.

    https://ideas.ted.com/the-rise-of-the-useless-class/

    In September 2013, two Oxford researchers, Carl Benedikt Frey and Michael A. Osborne, published “The Future of Employment,” in which they surveyed the likelihood of different professions being taken over by computer algorithms within the next 20 years, and they estimated that 47 percent of US jobs are at high risk. For example, there is a 99 percent probability that by 2033 human telemarketers and insurance underwriters will lose their jobs to algorithms. There is a 98 percent probability that the same will happen to sports referees. Cashiers — 97 percent. Chefs — 96 percent. Waiters — 94 percent. Paralegals — 94 percent. Tour guides — 91 percent. Bakers — 89 percent. Bus drivers — 89 percent. Construction laborers — 88 percent. Veterinary assistants — 86 percent. Security guards — 84 percent. Sailors — 83 percent. Bartenders — 77 percent. Archivists — 76 percent. Carpenters — 72 percent. Lifeguards — 67 percent [,,,]

    The coming technological bonanza will probably make it feasible to feed and support people even without any effort from their side. Yet such a development would deal a mortal blow to the liberal belief in the sacredness of human life and of human experiences. What’s so sacred about useless bums who pass their days devouring artificial experiences?.

    Quite a lot will prefer to fight, and die.

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    The coming technological bonanza will probably make it feasible to feed and support people even without any effort from their side. Yet such a development would deal a mortal blow to the liberal belief in the sacredness of human life and of human experiences. What’s so sacred about useless bums who pass their days devouring artificial experiences?.
     
    Agree.

    Quite a lot will prefer to fight, and die.
     
    Could be.
    The problem, should it happen, would be effectiveness of that "fight and die".

    Zulus at Ulundi?
    Japanese banzai assaults?

    More pertinent, insurrections against Soviet/Communist rule in Eastern Europe after WW2.
    Or, at the other side of the coin, Greek Communists after WW2.
    Etc...etc....plenty of examples, but let's not get bogged into history.

    Two great minds tried to address the issue. Orwell and Huxley.
    I believe we are looking at beginnings of some sort of "solution" as we speak.
    A combination of both.
    Strong stick with some carrot. Leaning more on the stick side.

    I believe that some sort of dystopian future (for, say, 80 % of population) is the most likely scenario.
    Unless something.....extraordinary....happens.

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  • @Corvinus
    "Your grasp of the realities of the slave trade is weak indeed. Those who “stripped” the homeland and identity from the African slaves were the Africans who kidnapped them (or enslaved them by judicial process) and then sold them to European and Arab slave traders."

    Indeed, there is culpability on the part of African tribal groups who sold captives or prisoners of war--their enemies--to Europeans. However, this demand for black labor was generated by Europeans themselves to make a quick buck. Eventually, those tribes who procured slaves for Europeans became targets for enslavement.

    They weren’t forced to meet the demand for slaves. And if they were later enslaved themselves, it was by other Africans.

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  • @Sean
    Southern slave owners "didn’t build that", they just happened to be born in the South and have a little money.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/buddhist-leader-spreads-hatred-of-muslims-in-myanmar-1507806002

    Buddhist Leader Spreads Hatred of Muslims in Myanmar
    With army’s blessing, the Ven. Wirathu stokes public support for purge of ethnic Rohingya
    By James Hookway
    Oct. 12, 2017 7:00 a.m. ET
    HPA-AN, Myanmar—The Venerable Wirathu hitched up his orange robes, stepped up onto a stage on a recent Sunday and tapped the microphone.

    “What kind of people are these Muslims?” he barked as a crowd of 1,000 in this small town east of Yangon cheered him on. “Do they eat rice through their backsides and excrete through their mouths? They are the opposite of everything in nature.”

     

    Buddhists don't believe in free will, neither do any Western scientists (though many think belief in it is a beneficial illusion). So what is "evil" if the good is not true?

    Myanmar is uncle sham’s next balkanising proj.

    The WARsj etc are dutifully doing its usual hatchet job , manufacturing pretext for another R2P[lunder] intervention.

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  • Balkanising the Unitedsnakes ?
    Best news I heard for years !
    The world needs a break from Washington’s tyranny. !

    Besides,
    The murkkans are so into balkanising other countries, the break up of USA would be poetic karma !

    Cant happen soon enough,
    Bring it on !

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  • You’re the one who suggested I volunteer myself into slavery. Read your own post.

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  • @Carroll Price
    I'm way past the age to join the military, which is the nearest present thing to the "peculiar institution" here in the US. With slavery by the way, being far from a peculiar institution then or now. At present, an estimated 15 million humans continue living under slavery, with the vast majority confined to the continent of Africa, where it's been a common practice since the dawn of recorded history and long before. Since slavery is apparently your hot-button, I suggest you concentrate your concerns and efforts on the one area of the world where it continues to be practiced on a large scale. Along with female genital mutilation which also (like slavery) traces it's origin to Black Africa where it's still practiced today.

    “I’m way past the age to join the military, which is the nearest present thing to the “peculiar institution” here in the US.”

    The military is a voluntary institution. A person chooses to join and be “owned”.

    “At present, an estimated 15 million humans continue living under slavery, with the vast majority confined to the continent of Africa, where it’s been a common practice since the dawn of recorded history and long before.”

    Slavery has been and continues to be found on every continent. I suggest you concentrate your concerns and efforts on humankind.

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  • In recent months, especially with the accession to the presidency of Donald Trump, there has been renewed talk, serious talk, ironic talk, about secession—particularly, from zealously Leftist anti-Trump militants in California and along the Pacific Rim areas of the United States. Advocates of what is called “Cal-exit” make their case that California, specifically, is not...
  • @Verymuchalive
    Yes, an excellent article from Prof Cathey.
    And you are right, Miro23, about the role of C 2oth "leftist internationalism" which continues to envelope Barcelona. People living very bourgeois lifestyles would come up to you and spout often very extreme left wing opinions, which you knew they had no intention of following in real life.
    My brother, a Post Grad in Spanish History, had to teach in Barcelona for a year as part of his course. I visited him several times. He came to despise Barcelona and its phony Toytown anarchists and other leftists. Neither he nor I have ever felt the desire to return.
    Without these Toytown leftists, I doubt there would have been a Referendum at all. Puigdemont needed their support and this was his bribe.

    And you are right, Miro23, about the role of C 2oth “leftist internationalism” which continues to envelope Barcelona. People living very bourgeois lifestyles would come up to you and spout often very extreme left wing opinions, which you knew they had no intention of following in real life.
    My brother, a Post Grad in Spanish History, had to teach in Barcelona for a year as part of his course. I visited him several times. He came to despise Barcelona and its phony Toytown anarchists and other leftists. Neither he nor I have ever felt the desire to return. Without these Toytown leftists, I doubt there would have been a Referendum at all.

    Yes, Barcelona has to be the world capital of Toytown leftist fashionistas.

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  • Catalonia, in the southeastern corner of Spain, is in the news.[Catalonia Government Declares Overwhelming Vote for Independence, by Raphael Minder, NYT, Oct 6, 2017] I was there once, back in my salad days, on my way to a camping vacation down the coast at a sleepy little whitewashed village named Oropesa del Mar, now all...
  • @Michael Kenny
    Why not California, Texas or New England? Maybe, but not on par with Catalonia. European nationalism is ethnic. Each ethnic group is entitled to have its own sovereign nation-state: the Irish, the Scots, the Welsh, the Crimean Tatars, the Basques, the Catalans, the Corsicans, the Ukrainians, the Kosovo Albanians, the Czechs, the Slovaks etc. That’s the whole point of the EU: to allow the numerous small nations of Europe to have their own nation-state without either being conquered by more powerful neighbours or slaughtering each other at regular intervals. That’s why the Catalans (like the Scots) are not seeking to leave the EU but simply to become full Member States. Such a concept of nationalism is impossible on the American continent because all the sovereign states are multi-ethnic products of European colonialism. We Europeans, the “original” whites, are the indigenous people of our own territories. We are not the descendants of colonists who invaded other people’s countries and squatted there. Thus, there’s no reason why California, Texas or New England shouldn’t be independent if they want to be but that has nothing to do with the European concepts of nationalism and the nation-state. For all the above reasons, Mr Derbyshire’s idea of a worldwide “nationalist international” is a contradiction in terms. Nationalism means different things in different parts of the world. As Mr D likes to say, that’s why we have different countries! Regional groupings of closely-related ethnic groups, such as the EU, seem to work quite well and the EU has certainly kept the peace and made it feasible for further European ethnic groups to obtain their own nation-states (notwithstanding 45 years of American attempts to destroy it!). But worldwide? Not yet. Maybe in a few centuries, by which time the American continent will be inhabited by Spanish-speaking, mixed race Catholics all of whom will look like Lester Holt!
    By the way, Catalonia is in the north-eastern corner of Spain.

    European nationalism is ethnic. Each ethnic group is entitled to have its own sovereign nation-state: the Irish, the Scots, the Welsh, the Crimean Tatars, the Basques, the Catalans, the Corsicans, the Ukrainians, the Kosovo Albanians, the Czechs, the Slovaks etc.

    1. “European nationalism is ethnic”.
    That’s just your interpretation of the status quo, based on your experience of travelling the towns and cities of the EU with your ears plugged and your eyes closed.

    2. “Each ethnic group is entitled…”
    Again, only in your opinion. In reality, the EU has no authority to offer that “entitlement” and no power to enforce it. It could only be offered by the existing nation-states in which those ethnic groups reside. Few, if any, of those nations would be willing to do so.

    It is already clear that Spain will not allow Catalonia the unilateral right to break up the integrity of the Spanish nation-state. Nor will Britain delegate to Scottish voters a similar right which is properly that of the British nation.

    2. I defend your right as a globalist EU ideologue to to indulge in such ethno-nationalist fantasies.

    3. But which ethnic group would you nominate to occupy the sovereign nation-state of London?

    Hint: so far this year, the most popular name for male babies born in London has been…
    But do I need to tell you? And, no, it is not “Sadiq”. He’s just the elected City mayor.

    That’s the whole point of the EU: to allow the numerous small nations of Europe to have their own nation-state without either being conquered by more powerful neighbours or slaughtering each other at regular intervals.

    The “whole point of the EU” is to progressively weaken the the sovereign nation-state in order to create “an ever-closer union”, until you have a supra-national, federal United States of Europe, with a single currency and economic policies, a single foreign policy, a single European military, etc. Probably also an interlocking transnational-security structure to spy on its own citizens, as the US deep state spies on Americans.

    You do know about the “Kalergi Plan”, don’t you? If so, you will know that its aim was to abolish the ethnicities you pretend to value in exchange for a new melting-pot European race in which all are “people of colour”. That’s not a “racist” point; it is what Coudenhove-Kalergi explicitly argued for. It has had influential supporters among the EU power elites. But don’t expect them to talk about it in public.

    You surely must also have heard of Peter Sutherland’s view that the European nations should give up their nationalist “homogeneity” by embracing the mass immigration of “refugees”.

    That’s why the Catalans (like the Scots) are not seeking to leave the EU but simply to become full Member States.

    No, that’s not the reason. It is because they expect to gain more generous subsidies than they receive as small countries or as regions of their existing nation-states. They know the rule is that the richer nations in the EU (Germany, Britain, etc.) pay more to subsidise the poorer ones (Ireland, Romania, etc.), while encouraging people from the poorer regions to migrate to the richer ones (leaving the poorer ones in need of increasing subsidy). That feeling of economic dependence on the super-state is the cement that binds the the nations of Europe, as it does any “socialist” super-state which offers to be generous with other people’s earnings.

    Regional groupings of closely-related ethnic groups, such as the EU, seem to work quite well and the EU has certainly kept the peace and made it feasible for further European ethnic groups to obtain their own nation-states…

    They “seem to work quite well”. Until they don’t.

    “The EU has certainly kept the peace…”. The EU ideologues have been peddling that myth from the start. If there has been peace in Europe since the creation of the Common Market, it is not because of the EU but because Germany has not attempted to start another war. (And why would they need to, having gained so much from the settlement they won after losing the last war?)

    However, Merkel almost started one with Russia by conspiring with the Obama administration to overthrow the elected government of the Ukraine and try to bring it into NATO and the EU. Apparently they have succeeded, as you seem to have decided, on behalf of the Ukraine, that it is now a “European nationalism”.

    …(notwithstanding 45 years of American attempts to destroy it!).

    You’ve made that claim before, with no evidence to make it credible. The truth is that every US administration from LBJ’s to Obama’s has been in favour of the “European project”and determined to keep Britain in it. Understandably so, if it means that the US does not again have to sacrifice its own people to defend Europeans in another major war, and if it means that there is a continental “buffer zone” between America and Russia. Why would they feel any need to destroy it?

    Donald Trump is the only president I know of who has ever questioned the pro-EU orthodoxy. But then, another political myth you pretend to believe is that Trump is “in collusion” with Vlad Putin, (the evil wizard of the Russiagate galaxy), and is trying to enforce his nationalism and his dark American First Amendment rights upon the people of Europe, against the wishes of their enlightened leaders.

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  • In recent months, especially with the accession to the presidency of Donald Trump, there has been renewed talk, serious talk, ironic talk, about secession—particularly, from zealously Leftist anti-Trump militants in California and along the Pacific Rim areas of the United States. Advocates of what is called “Cal-exit” make their case that California, specifically, is not...
  • @Delinquent Snail
    There are a few towns that are lily white, but most are black and Brown.
    I drove up to mammoth a couple months ago and i was so happy to see less and less black people. Less graffiti, less trash, it was nice.

    Sometimes I stop in Hollister and Salinas and Watsonville when some kind of Hispanic fiesta is going on. I avoid Santa Cruz like the plague partly because of the traffic but mostly because of all the arrogant old gray haired commumist liberals attached to UC Santa Cruz.

    One thing I always notice: the towns are filled with able bodied young hispanic men loitering about. The fields are filled with machinery and 2 or 3 hispanic men running the machinery. But the newspapers are full of stories about how there will be a food shortage next winter because there aren’t enough illegals to plant and pick. The so called journalists that print those farmer’s assoications handouts are too dumb to know that crops get planted in a few weeks. Then they just grow for a few months. Weeds are taken care of by one pilot in one plane with pesticides. No workers are needed until the crops are ripe and need to be picked. Then just a few workers are needed to run the machines.

    There are an astonishing number of blacks in the central valley now, even as far north as the San Joaquin. I’m in a 85 percent White, 15 percent asian/fillipino suburb now. Heaven compared to Los Angeles.

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  • Ever seen the movie Cyrano de Bergerac? BTW, Cyrano was gay and died of syphillis of the anus. He got it from his lover Hyacinth somebody. Name a boy Hyacinth, what did his parents expect. He was a great swordsman, basically a legal way to commit murder. Cardinal Richelieu outlawed dueling and enforced it.

    Cyrano, Christian, Madeline/Roxanne, Le Bret and even Ragano were all real people and Christian did die at the Siege of Arras. It was in the reign of Louis 13 of France.

    At the conclusion of that war France got what is now Belgium, Spain got the fiefdom of Catalonia. During the mess after the fall of Rome, the Count of Catalonia became extremely powerful and his people became extremely rich and powerful economically because of the Port of Barcelona and other things. Although rulers of Catalonia were never promoted to Marquesses or non Royal Dukes, they were, like the Counts of Toulouse,Foix, Anjou , and other medieval Counts more powerful than many of the Dukes and even petty little German Kings. Like the Counts of Toulouse and Anjou, the Counts of Catalonia were high enough to marry Royalty.

    The Counts of Catalonia swore fealty to the Kings of France. The language developed as a form of occitan (southern) French. As the medieval wars went on, sometimes Catalonia was a fief of the King of France, sometimes of the King of Spain and sometimes an independent province. But it ended up in Spain in the 1600′s and has been there ever since. Catalans claim their language is more French than Spanish. They claim they are ethnically French.

    Barcelona has one of the highest Muslim populations of Europe. Every single Muslim plot in the last few decades including the Madrid train station bombing has Barcelona connections. It is interesting that this latest push for Catalan independence occurs just when Muslim influence is so high in Catalonia.

    So it’s something to ponder: Just who is really behind the push for Catalan independence?

    And it has absolutely nothing to do with the wars between various factions of Christians 500 years ago and Jilles pride that his insignificant little province got free of Spain with the help of every other powerful country in Europe.

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  • @Verymuchalive
    Philip II wanted to conquer the Netherlands and England and enforce Catholicism on
    the conquered populations. How would that be a good thing ?

    Phillip did not want to conquer the Netherlands. He wanted to keep it as it belonged to his Hapsburg ancestors since around 800 AD

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  • @Verymuchalive
    Philip II wanted to conquer the Netherlands and England and enforce Catholicism on
    the conquered populations. How would that be a good thing ?

    The Netherlands BELONGED to Phillip and Spain at the time of the rebellion. It was part of his Father Charles 5 of the Holy Roman Empire / Charles 1 of Spain inheritance from the Phillip’s grandfather, Maximillan Hapsburg Holy Roman Emperor.

    Netherlands and what is now Belgium were always provinces of the Duchies of Burgundy, Cleves, and other earldoms or Grafdoms or whatever and part of the Hapsburg Empire.

    When Charles 5 & 1 died he, as Emperor, gave that insignificant little province to his son Phillip.
    France was always the most powerful and important enemy of the Empire. So the French and English sent rabble rousers to Holland to revolt against Phillip of Spain.

    It was not an invasion. It was an attempt to put down a provincial rebellion, similar to the American civil war. The Hapsburg/Spanish Empire troops were already there. The Netherlands, with vast help from France, England, and various Germanic countries won that rebellion. It was almost 500 years ago.

    The Dutch Reformed Religion as it was called, believed that only 144,000 people would go to heaven. But everyone had to behave as though they would go to heaven by living an upright and moral life. Sounds like a good idea to me. Although why if one knew one would go to hell if not one of the “elect” as they were called why lead a moral life. It was the same as the CAtholic thing of “do good, avoid evil if you want ot go to heaven”

    Why is this relevant to Catalonian independence anyway? Catalonia has been part of Spain since the 1600′s. The play Cyrano is set during that war between France and Spain. Spain had Belgium, France had Catalonia. At the conclusion of the war they exchanged the provinces. It was when Louis 13 was King of France.

    Really Jilles, the great struggle of the Dutch against Spain is not relevant to every subject under discussion. Especially as you never mention it would never have happened without the help of England, France and other countries.

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  • @Andrei Martyanov

    The coasts have extensive global trade networks and would effectively lay siege on the interior.
     
    Actually, it is the other way around. What coasts? If in the East it could be viewed as a somewhat continuous urban chain in the North-East, the West Coast "elites" reside mostly in Seattle, Portland, SF urban areas, which, while large, are in effect the places of compact residence. As such, they are fairly easily isolated, not to mention the fact of undeniable emasculation of their male residents. They can not find often their own ass with their two hands in a brightly lit room, let alone "lay siege" to anything. This is not to speak of the fact that all, without exception, urban centers depend entirely on "interior" for food. As per interior main cities--as latest elections showed, Ohio or Indiana, which are interior and do contain serious urban centers are not "elitists" states. Neither is Texas, which is also a major urban and port state. In other words, it is a very complex picture.

    The interior states have a large number of nukes. Control of these, if it were accomplished, would be decisive.

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  • Catalonia, in the southeastern corner of Spain, is in the news.[Catalonia Government Declares Overwhelming Vote for Independence, by Raphael Minder, NYT, Oct 6, 2017] I was there once, back in my salad days, on my way to a camping vacation down the coast at a sleepy little whitewashed village named Oropesa del Mar, now all...
  • @Corvinus
    I was being sarcastic. But feel free to sell yourself in the reboot of this "peculiar institution".

    http://www.endslaverynow.org/learn/modern-slave-narratives

    I’m way past the age to join the military, which is the nearest present thing to the “peculiar institution” here in the US. With slavery by the way, being far from a peculiar institution then or now. At present, an estimated 15 million humans continue living under slavery, with the vast majority confined to the continent of Africa, where it’s been a common practice since the dawn of recorded history and long before. Since slavery is apparently your hot-button, I suggest you concentrate your concerns and efforts on the one area of the world where it continues to be practiced on a large scale. Along with female genital mutilation which also (like slavery) traces it’s origin to Black Africa where it’s still practiced today.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "I’m way past the age to join the military, which is the nearest present thing to the “peculiar institution” here in the US."

    The military is a voluntary institution. A person chooses to join and be "owned".

    "At present, an estimated 15 million humans continue living under slavery, with the vast majority confined to the continent of Africa, where it’s been a common practice since the dawn of recorded history and long before."

    Slavery has been and continues to be found on every continent. I suggest you concentrate your concerns and efforts on humankind.
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  • In recent months, especially with the accession to the presidency of Donald Trump, there has been renewed talk, serious talk, ironic talk, about secession—particularly, from zealously Leftist anti-Trump militants in California and along the Pacific Rim areas of the United States. Advocates of what is called “Cal-exit” make their case that California, specifically, is not...
  • @Alden
    For what's it worth, Marin is a hispanic name. Don't know if it means anything, Wally, maybe you should take a drive up and down the interior valley from Chico to San Diego and take a good look at who lives there. The population are not conservatives.

    There are a few towns that are lily white, but most are black and Brown.
    I drove up to mammoth a couple months ago and i was so happy to see less and less black people. Less graffiti, less trash, it was nice.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    Sometimes I stop in Hollister and Salinas and Watsonville when some kind of Hispanic fiesta is going on. I avoid Santa Cruz like the plague partly because of the traffic but mostly because of all the arrogant old gray haired commumist liberals attached to UC Santa Cruz.

    One thing I always notice: the towns are filled with able bodied young hispanic men loitering about. The fields are filled with machinery and 2 or 3 hispanic men running the machinery. But the newspapers are full of stories about how there will be a food shortage next winter because there aren't enough illegals to plant and pick. The so called journalists that print those farmer's assoications handouts are too dumb to know that crops get planted in a few weeks. Then they just grow for a few months. Weeds are taken care of by one pilot in one plane with pesticides. No workers are needed until the crops are ripe and need to be picked. Then just a few workers are needed to run the machines.

    There are an astonishing number of blacks in the central valley now, even as far north as the San Joaquin. I'm in a 85 percent White, 15 percent asian/fillipino suburb now. Heaven compared to Los Angeles.
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  • @Alden
    Barcelona and therefore Catalonia has the biggest muslim population in Spain. Hmmmm

    I know the Basque separatist movement was funded and organized by Russia as part of its destabilize Europe strategy. It could be that because Catalonia has so many muslims a Muslim entity is behind the Catalonia separatist movement.

    1. Not Russia per se but the USSR. Normally a pedantic note, but nowadays…

    2. Muslim entities just don’t have that kind of clout, not even the Saudis.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    Ok, I'll try to use USSR from now on to avoid insulting the real Russians.
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  • @jilles dykstra
    There was no attempt at conquest by Philip in Spain, he wanted to put down a rebellion in Holland of heretic protestants.
    And yes, there was mass slaughter, for example in Antwerp;
    Not for nothing Dutch cities resisted to the very end.
    Holland profited, the Antwerp trade came to a standstill.

    Holland belonged to the Hapsburg Empire when it was part of the Duchy of Burgundy. Holland belonged to Spain. Like Lincoln during the civil war, and England that wanted to hold on to Ireland, and other empires, Phillip wanted to keep his territory intact.

    Holland managed to get free of Spain as many states have managed to get away from their Empires.
    It had very little to do with religion. The Dutch independence movement got away from the empire that ruled it since the dark ages. When did the Duchy of Burgundy become a fief of the Hapsburg Empire? When Charles 1st of Spain became Holy Roman Empire Charles 5 of the Holy Roman Empire Holland became part of the Spanish Empire.

    Phillip did not invade Holland. It belonged to him and Spain. It was a province of the Spanish Empire. Empires like to hold on to the territories they have held for centuries as the Hapsburgs held on to the Duchy of Burgundy of which Holland was an unimportant and obscure part.

    You don’t even know your own history, just some third grade Phillip was a bad man nationalist propaganda

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  • Barcelona and therefore Catalonia has the biggest muslim population in Spain. Hmmmm

    I know the Basque separatist movement was funded and organized by Russia as part of its destabilize Europe strategy. It could be that because Catalonia has so many muslims a Muslim entity is behind the Catalonia separatist movement.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    1. Not Russia per se but the USSR. Normally a pedantic note, but nowadays...

    2. Muslim entities just don't have that kind of clout, not even the Saudis.
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  • @Daniel H
    >>Philip II wanted to conquer the Netherlands and England and enforce Catholicism on
    the conquered populations. How would that be a good thing ?

    Because Roman Catholicism is true.

    Check out how Henry 8 and Thomas Cromwell enforced the CofE on Britain because Henry couldn’t produce healthy children. Henry personally signed 72,000 execution warrants. That doesn’t count the various rebellions he put down. Or his rebellious cousins the children of his Mother’s royal York sisters who married into far greater families than the Tudors and Beauforts.

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  • @Wally
    Just in:

    California secessionists think their path to independence is easier than Catalonia’s

    http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/article178435876.html

    excerpt:
    “There are definitely similarities in the fiscal situation – we both give more than we get back,” said Dave Marin, director of research and policy for the California Freedom Coalition. “But there’s more flexibility in the U.S. Constitution for secession than there is in the Spanish one. California has more tools available to it.”

    Yeah right. Try that without many interior & northern counties, and the enormous federal contracts & massive federal subsidies that CA receives.

    For what’s it worth, Marin is a hispanic name. Don’t know if it means anything, Wally, maybe you should take a drive up and down the interior valley from Chico to San Diego and take a good look at who lives there. The population are not conservatives.

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    • Replies: @Delinquent Snail
    There are a few towns that are lily white, but most are black and Brown.
    I drove up to mammoth a couple months ago and i was so happy to see less and less black people. Less graffiti, less trash, it was nice.
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  • @Verymuchalive
    Didn't most of the English and the Dutch think so about their forms of Protestantism ?
    The conquest of England and Holland would have involved mass slaughter and great cruelty.
    Thankfully, the God of Love didn't permit it.

    Didn’t most of the English and the Dutch think so about their forms of Protestantism ?

    Not in the 1580s, no.

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  • @Wally
    Just in:

    California secessionists think their path to independence is easier than Catalonia’s

    http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/article178435876.html

    excerpt:
    “There are definitely similarities in the fiscal situation – we both give more than we get back,” said Dave Marin, director of research and policy for the California Freedom Coalition. “But there’s more flexibility in the U.S. Constitution for secession than there is in the Spanish one. California has more tools available to it.”

    Yeah right. Try that without many interior & northern counties, and the enormous federal contracts & massive federal subsidies that CA receives.

    Once and for all, the Northern Counties of California are not conservative at all.

    Where did you get that idea? Just because its a rural area where people maintain wells and propane tanks and can build sheds and fix their cars and grow weed? They may be rural, but they are not rural Iowans.

    The interior counties are mostly hispanic citizens who can vote and the farmers and business men who live off hispanic workers. The biggest importers of hispamics in this country are farmers and food processors and that is what is in the interior counties of California.

    Compared to the interior central valley, Los Angeles has few hispanics. Who do you think lives in the interior counties? Scots Irish? Anglos saxons? No, its hispanics.

    The northern counties population pretty much consists of American indians, ultra liberal weed growers
    (our biggest crop) old hippies and their hippie grandchildren and people on welfare. For instance the biggest employer in Humboldt county is the indian rez and the state university. Both the indian rez and the university like all universities are ultra liberal democrat.

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  • @jilles dykstra
    The writer may have arguments against secesssion, yet about half the Catalan population more or less risked their lives in order to vote for secession.
    The quality of our media is such that nowhere, on both sides of the Atlantic, I found an explanation why they want to leave Spain, despite, as is asserted, a lot of autonomy.

    Wilson in 1918 or so introduced self determination.
    Diplomats at the time saw Pandora's box opened.
    Cynical historians were of the opinion that this self determination was meant to break up the Habburg emire.
    This was a great success, meaning that the break up succeeded.

    Alas Wilson's assertion that WWI was 'the war to end all wars' did not become true.
    The successor states to the Habsburg empire wage war to the present day, as we saw with Serbia unwilling to let Kosovo go.
    Kosovo is the most mineral rich area in Europe, it is now under western control.

    As far as I know Catalonia has no minerals, so there is no interest in other countries to see it independent.

    Your bigotry and prejudices show. Your pathetic little country is nothing now days but the drug addict pornography prostitution and sex slave center of Europe. But go on bragging about how you got rid of Spain 500 years ago with the help of France, Britain, Italian bankers and various German countries.

    You would never have done it without the help of the great powers.

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  • The author did a reasonable clip and paste of Spanish history as a whole,but wrote absolutely nothing about why SOME Catalans want to regain the independence it had in early and later medieval times.

    He should have researched the history of Catalonia.

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  • @Wally
    'Elite' states secede? Could be interesting.

    - 45% of California, for example, is Federal land.

    - Without US taxpayers money CA would be a 3rd world country completely filled with unemployable & dumb illegal immigrants.

    - Think about this brief list made possible by the US taxpayers / federal government, money CA would not get and then tens of thousands of CA people would lose their jobs (= lost CA tax revenues):

    aerospace contracts, defense contracts, fed gov, software contracts, fed gov airplane orders, bases, ports, money for illegal aliens costs, federal monies for universities, ‘affirmative action monies, section 8 housing money, monies for highways, monies for ‘mass transportation’, monies to fight crime, monies from the EPA for streams & lakes, monies from the Nat. Park Service, monies for healthcare, monies for freeloading welfare recipients, and all this is just the tip of the iceberg

    - Not to mention the numerous counties in CA which will not want to be part of the laughable ‘Peoples Republic of California’.

    - And imagine the ‘Peoples Republic of California Army’, hilarious.

    You’re right about some things. Most people who weren’t there at the beginning don’t realize that all of Silicon Valley as outsiders call it arose from NASA and Laurence Livermore Labs and the federally funded researchers at all the universities. That’s Santa Clara and Southern San Mateo counties Ca Silicon Valley began in Mountain View where NASA was located decades ago.

    The people who live in the north east mountains tend to be old hippies and their welfare dependent children and grandchildren. The Whites in the Central Valley and the rest of the agricultural areas are Democrats because they are dependent on government handouts and illegal primitive indian workers.

    The feds do own about half the land in Ca. There was some kind of secession rally a couple months ago. Cindy Sheehan was the lead speaker. Remember her? She was the lady carrying on about one of the Bush wars. She picketed in front of his house in Crawford TX. Only about 300 people came.

    You are wrong that there conservatives as you call them in California. There are no pro White people in California except one person, me. The conservatives are holy rollers who are against abortion. Abortion is 4 to 1 black to White and 5 to 1 Hispanic to brown. I do not see how any racially conscious White person who can look at those stats and be against abortion. Most of the conservatives are college boy libertarians and holy roller bible thumpers who are against abortion.

    Don’t think California farmers and small business men are stalwart anglo saxon yoeman types. They are totally dependent and in favor of cheap cheaper and cheapest labor. They want more and more and more primitive hispanic indians in the state. And a huge, huge number of the small businessmen are totally corrupt crooked turd world brown and asian immigrants. I could tell you stories about the
    crooked immigrant business people, from gas stations rigged to charge for a gallon of gas you didn’t pump to dry cleaners who just press the clothes and don’t send them to the cleaning fluid shop

    I doubt the secession movement will get off the ground.

    Agriculture and the seaports and Asian trade made California great before Silicon Valley and the movie business. They will be there long after Santa Clara goes back to suburbs and the movie industry goes elsewhere.

    The mexicans are 100 times better than the blacks, russians, armenians, persians, arabs, and all the varieties of asians.

    As far as mexicans taking over? All the private schools where TPTB send their kids teach Mandarin and are dropping Spanish. And Mandarin is more popular in the prestige universities than Spanish.
    All the business schools encourage the study of Mandarin.

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  • Catalonia, in the southeastern corner of Spain, is in the news.[Catalonia Government Declares Overwhelming Vote for Independence, by Raphael Minder, NYT, Oct 6, 2017] I was there once, back in my salad days, on my way to a camping vacation down the coast at a sleepy little whitewashed village named Oropesa del Mar, now all...
  • A balkanization of USA is precisely what Obama, Hillary and one enemy country want, then the new nations formed would join that other nation (supposedly a “friend nation). All people pushing for massive immigration and open borders want that California and other States separate from USA. It is quite obvious , only brainless people dont see.

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  • In recent months, especially with the accession to the presidency of Donald Trump, there has been renewed talk, serious talk, ironic talk, about secession—particularly, from zealously Leftist anti-Trump militants in California and along the Pacific Rim areas of the United States. Advocates of what is called “Cal-exit” make their case that California, specifically, is not...
  • @jilles dykstra
    German speaking people ruled the Habsburg empire, although near the end the name was changed to Austria-Hungarian empire, the change speaks for itself.
    Most German speaking people in that empire, catholics, had little or nothing in common the protestant Prussians.
    They hardly understood each other, even today my wife has great difficulty in understanding Austrian German, not to speak of Swiss German.
    The following novel admirably describes the completely static society in the Habsburg empire.
    Joseph Roth, ‘The Radetzky march’, 1932, 1974, New York

    Dude, I’m not even a native speaker of German and haven’t been to Germany in my adult life, yet my semi-fluent German is enough typically to understand most Austrians, albeit asking them to repeat something a couple times or to slow down a bit.

    Swiss German, agreed, that can be really tough.

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  • Catalonia, in the southeastern corner of Spain, is in the news.[Catalonia Government Declares Overwhelming Vote for Independence, by Raphael Minder, NYT, Oct 6, 2017] I was there once, back in my salad days, on my way to a camping vacation down the coast at a sleepy little whitewashed village named Oropesa del Mar, now all...
  • @Sean
    Myanmar (the worlds only Buddhist country) shows that you cannot really separate nationalism from religion. War between countries is obsolete in the West ,and the rest of the developed world has no intention of fighting when the West is opening up to them.

    The enemy of Western elites are the militarily and economically redundant masses, and immigration is a class war on the redundant mass. The immigrants are a political counterweight and maybe a reserve army for any popular uprising.. In Myanmar the native masses are still needed.

    The enemy of Western elites are the militarily and economically redundant masses, and immigration is a class war on the redundant mass. The immigrants are a political counterweight and maybe a reserve army for any popular uprising.

    Agree.
    Don’t believe in ‘popular uprising’, but the rest is, IMHO, spot on.

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    • Replies: @Sean

    https://ideas.ted.com/the-rise-of-the-useless-class/


    In September 2013, two Oxford researchers, Carl Benedikt Frey and Michael A. Osborne, published “The Future of Employment,” in which they surveyed the likelihood of different professions being taken over by computer algorithms within the next 20 years, and they estimated that 47 percent of US jobs are at high risk. For example, there is a 99 percent probability that by 2033 human telemarketers and insurance underwriters will lose their jobs to algorithms. There is a 98 percent probability that the same will happen to sports referees. Cashiers — 97 percent. Chefs — 96 percent. Waiters — 94 percent. Paralegals — 94 percent. Tour guides — 91 percent. Bakers — 89 percent. Bus drivers — 89 percent. Construction laborers — 88 percent. Veterinary assistants — 86 percent. Security guards — 84 percent. Sailors — 83 percent. Bartenders — 77 percent. Archivists — 76 percent. Carpenters — 72 percent. Lifeguards — 67 percent [,,,]

    The coming technological bonanza will probably make it feasible to feed and support people even without any effort from their side. Yet such a development would deal a mortal blow to the liberal belief in the sacredness of human life and of human experiences. What’s so sacred about useless bums who pass their days devouring artificial experiences?.
     

    Quite a lot will prefer to fight, and die.
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  • @Corvinus
    I was being sarcastic. But feel free to sell yourself in the reboot of this "peculiar institution".

    http://www.endslaverynow.org/learn/modern-slave-narratives

    Southern slave owners “didn’t build that”, they just happened to be born in the South and have a little money.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/buddhist-leader-spreads-hatred-of-muslims-in-myanmar-1507806002

    Buddhist Leader Spreads Hatred of Muslims in Myanmar
    With army’s blessing, the Ven. Wirathu stokes public support for purge of ethnic Rohingya
    By James Hookway
    Oct. 12, 2017 7:00 a.m. ET
    HPA-AN, Myanmar—The Venerable Wirathu hitched up his orange robes, stepped up onto a stage on a recent Sunday and tapped the microphone.

    “What kind of people are these Muslims?” he barked as a crowd of 1,000 in this small town east of Yangon cheered him on. “Do they eat rice through their backsides and excrete through their mouths? They are the opposite of everything in nature.”

    Buddhists don’t believe in free will, neither do any Western scientists (though many think belief in it is a beneficial illusion). So what is “evil” if the good is not true?

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    • Replies: @denk
    Myanmar is uncle sham's next balkanising proj.

    The WARsj etc are dutifully doing its usual hatchet job , manufacturing pretext for another R2P[lunder] intervention.
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  • @yeah
    I wouldn't write-off religion so easily. History has never been a linear process; times of affluence and want, times of security and strife, have all come and gone repeatedly, but religion has stayed on. Religion is a multi-faceted thing, answering to different peoples' different and inner-most needs. Yes, it is massively on the retreat in the west, but so it has in other historical periods. Expect it to bounce back - for better or worse is a different topic. In a way the most anti-religion people - communists, identity warriors, empiricists, and others, have tended to believe so absolutely in their own viewpoints that such belief is tantamount to the blind belief of traditional religions. Real atheism to me is the ability to suspend judgment and belief except when the evidence is strong enough to knock one down. To trade one set of dogmas with another does not constitute movement.

    Nor would I write-off nationalism so easily. Some variety of it is inherent in all social animals, whether it is allegiance to the pack, or to the tribe, or to the city, or to one's group, or to some other grouping. A new kind of nationalism is very much alive and thriving today: the transnationalism of the globalists and the elites. They see themselves as citizens of the world and the world as their oyster. The counter-reaction to that is already setting of revivals of various kinds of nationalisms of the traditional kind, sub-nationalisms of the tribal sort, and group mentalities of all kinds. War or no war, nationalism in various forms and mutations will endure if we go by human history.

    Myanmar (the worlds only Buddhist country) shows that you cannot really separate nationalism from religion. War between countries is obsolete in the West ,and the rest of the developed world has no intention of fighting when the West is opening up to them.

    The enemy of Western elites are the militarily and economically redundant masses, and immigration is a class war on the redundant mass. The immigrants are a political counterweight and maybe a reserve army for any popular uprising.. In Myanmar the native masses are still needed.

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    • Replies: @peterAUS

    The enemy of Western elites are the militarily and economically redundant masses, and immigration is a class war on the redundant mass. The immigrants are a political counterweight and maybe a reserve army for any popular uprising.
     
    Agree.
    Don't believe in 'popular uprising', but the rest is, IMHO, spot on.
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  • In recent months, especially with the accession to the presidency of Donald Trump, there has been renewed talk, serious talk, ironic talk, about secession—particularly, from zealously Leftist anti-Trump militants in California and along the Pacific Rim areas of the United States. Advocates of what is called “Cal-exit” make their case that California, specifically, is not...
  • @Verymuchalive
    Didn't most of the English and the Dutch think so about their forms of Protestantism ?
    The conquest of England and Holland would have involved mass slaughter and great cruelty.
    Thankfully, the God of Love didn't permit it.

    There was no attempt at conquest by Philip in Spain, he wanted to put down a rebellion in Holland of heretic protestants.
    And yes, there was mass slaughter, for example in Antwerp;
    Not for nothing Dutch cities resisted to the very end.
    Holland profited, the Antwerp trade came to a standstill.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    Holland belonged to the Hapsburg Empire when it was part of the Duchy of Burgundy. Holland belonged to Spain. Like Lincoln during the civil war, and England that wanted to hold on to Ireland, and other empires, Phillip wanted to keep his territory intact.

    Holland managed to get free of Spain as many states have managed to get away from their Empires.
    It had very little to do with religion. The Dutch independence movement got away from the empire that ruled it since the dark ages. When did the Duchy of Burgundy become a fief of the Hapsburg Empire? When Charles 1st of Spain became Holy Roman Empire Charles 5 of the Holy Roman Empire Holland became part of the Spanish Empire.

    Phillip did not invade Holland. It belonged to him and Spain. It was a province of the Spanish Empire. Empires like to hold on to the territories they have held for centuries as the Hapsburgs held on to the Duchy of Burgundy of which Holland was an unimportant and obscure part.

    You don't even know your own history, just some third grade Phillip was a bad man nationalist propaganda
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  • @Miro23

    Catalonia can best find its destiny in reasserting its role as a largely self-governing region—but within the historic federation of the Spanish kingdom.
     
    One of the best articles ever on Unz, with a great presentation of the historical roots of modern Spain. Maybe it underplays the role of 20th Century leftist internationalism (i.e. Bolshevism light or otherwise) but still , it would correctly see radical international leftism as a new arrival on the scene, mostly burning itself out with the exit of Spanish feudalism .

    But, I can think of instances when secession—that is, the break-up of larger nations or empires—is not only inadvisable, but positively injurious not only to the whole, but also to the respective seceding parts. The dissolution of the old Austria-Hungarian Empire in 1918, for instance, was not only a tragic mistake geopolitically, but made little sense economically, ethnically or historically.
     
    I'm not so sure about this.

    Austria-Hungary, prior to its collapse, wasn't a respectful alliance of largely self-governing regions. There were a lot of other things going on - most notably hopeless race wars focused on Vienna.

    Just as an example:

    "In the old Austria, nothing could be done without patronage. That's partly explained by the fact that nine million Germans were in fact rulers, in virtue of an unwritten law, of fifty million non-Germans. This German ruling class took strict care that places should always be found for Germans. For them this was the only method of maintaining themselves in this privileged situation. The Balts of German origin behaved in the same way towards the Slav population."

    "Hitler's Table Talk". Conversation Nº 109 15th-16th January 1942
     

    and,

    "The rise of the Jews in Austria-Hungary may well have been the most sudden , impressive rise of Jews in modern history."

    "....all public life was dominated by Jews. The banks, the press, the theater, literature, social organizations, all lay in the hands of the Jews.... The aristocracy would have nothing to do with such things.... The small number of untitled patrician families imitated the aristocracy; the original upper-middle class had disappeared..... The court, the lower middle class and the Jews gave the city its stamp. And that the Jews, as the most mobile group, kept all the others in continual motion is, on the whole, not surprising."

    Albert Lindeman, "Esau's Tears: Modern Anti-Semitism and the Rise of the Jews"
     

    German speaking people ruled the Habsburg empire, although near the end the name was changed to Austria-Hungarian empire, the change speaks for itself.
    Most German speaking people in that empire, catholics, had little or nothing in common the protestant Prussians.
    They hardly understood each other, even today my wife has great difficulty in understanding Austrian German, not to speak of Swiss German.
    The following novel admirably describes the completely static society in the Habsburg empire.
    Joseph Roth, ‘The Radetzky march’, 1932, 1974, New York

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Dude, I'm not even a native speaker of German and haven't been to Germany in my adult life, yet my semi-fluent German is enough typically to understand most Austrians, albeit asking them to repeat something a couple times or to slow down a bit.

    Swiss German, agreed, that can be really tough.
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  • @Jo King
    «1258. Thus, for eight centuries the region has been united with Spain».
    This is completly false, Spain simply HAS NOT 8 centuries of existence, learn History first, wright after. americans and History, what a difficult relation.

    Gerald Brenan, ´The Spanish Labyrinth, an Account of the Social and Political Background of the Spanish Civil War’, Cambridge, 1960
    The writer shows that Spain never was a nation.
    It resembles the Habsburg empire, or Yougoslavia

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    • Replies: @Alden
    That's the author's opinion and probably yours. It's not exactly the truth.
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  • Brexit, Krexit and Crexit: Britain leaves the EU, Kurdistan declares independence from Iraq, Catalonia secedes from Spain – three massive political changes either under way or put on the political agenda by recent referendums. Three very different countries, but in all cases a conviction among a significant number of voters that they would be better...
  • @Wally
    The Armenians certainly slaughtered a lot of Turks too.

    Nice try.

    If Armenians supposedly slaughtered a lot of Turks, how is it that there are hardly any Armenians, or Assyrians, or Greeks left in Turkey today 2017, when 25% of Ottoman Turkey was Christian – Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks – circa 1915.

    Your genocidal, savage, nomad Muslim Turk kin from Uyguristan invaded Asia Minor, and over many centuries exterminated the indigenous Christian peoples, ending in the great Genocide of 1915-1923, when ~4 million Christians were exterminated.

    Try again you lying denialist filthy scum.

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  • In recent months, especially with the accession to the presidency of Donald Trump, there has been renewed talk, serious talk, ironic talk, about secession—particularly, from zealously Leftist anti-Trump militants in California and along the Pacific Rim areas of the United States. Advocates of what is called “Cal-exit” make their case that California, specifically, is not...
  • @Old Palo Altan
    Absolutely.
    That half-witted cousin of the brilliant Wilhelm II, George V, came back from a visit to Germany in 1913 and feverishly harangued the Prime Minister to the effect that an excuse for war needed to be found, and found quickly. Otherwise, he thought, the industrious and intelligent Germans would soon replace the British Empire with their own.
    The tragic assassination of the very promising Franz Ferdinand was not a cause of the war, but merely a timely excuse.

    He was not at all half witted, Balfour already in 1907 said to the USA ambassador ‘that war was maybe the cheapest way to to keep the British standard of living’.

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  • The writer may have arguments against secesssion, yet about half the Catalan population more or less risked their lives in order to vote for secession.
    The quality of our media is such that nowhere, on both sides of the Atlantic, I found an explanation why they want to leave Spain, despite, as is asserted, a lot of autonomy.

    Wilson in 1918 or so introduced self determination.
    Diplomats at the time saw Pandora’s box opened.
    Cynical historians were of the opinion that this self determination was meant to break up the Habburg emire.
    This was a great success, meaning that the break up succeeded.

    Alas Wilson’s assertion that WWI was ‘the war to end all wars’ did not become true.
    The successor states to the Habsburg empire wage war to the present day, as we saw with Serbia unwilling to let Kosovo go.
    Kosovo is the most mineral rich area in Europe, it is now under western control.

    As far as I know Catalonia has no minerals, so there is no interest in other countries to see it independent.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    Your bigotry and prejudices show. Your pathetic little country is nothing now days but the drug addict pornography prostitution and sex slave center of Europe. But go on bragging about how you got rid of Spain 500 years ago with the help of France, Britain, Italian bankers and various German countries.

    You would never have done it without the help of the great powers.
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  • @Daniel H
    >>Philip II wanted to conquer the Netherlands and England and enforce Catholicism on
    the conquered populations. How would that be a good thing ?

    Because Roman Catholicism is true.

    Didn’t most of the English and the Dutch think so about their forms of Protestantism ?
    The conquest of England and Holland would have involved mass slaughter and great cruelty.
    Thankfully, the God of Love didn’t permit it.

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    There was no attempt at conquest by Philip in Spain, he wanted to put down a rebellion in Holland of heretic protestants.
    And yes, there was mass slaughter, for example in Antwerp;
    Not for nothing Dutch cities resisted to the very end.
    Holland profited, the Antwerp trade came to a standstill.
    , @Anon

    Didn’t most of the English and the Dutch think so about their forms of Protestantism ?
     
    Not in the 1580s, no.
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  • @Wally
    Your silly preamble aside, I highly recommend:

    The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry
    By Walter N. Sanning
    https://codoh.com/library/document/3954/?lang=en

    Besides merely saying you are a "holocaust revisionist", what are you doing about it?
    Where can the public read your views?

    I have not published any articles on the matter because I do not have the expertise – my background is mainly C18th and Economic History. Also, I have not engaged in historical research for a very long time, as I am employed in private business.
    Obviously I have read numerous books and articles over the years, including Sanning’s. The point I was trying to get across was that even then there were people in Academia who rejected the Holocaust – 6 million Jews and others gassed – as a propaganda hoax. They held ” Holocaust Revisionist ” views, as you, I and apparently Prof Cathey do.
    In the 1980s things were much more difficult. There was no internet and few publishers were willing to print works. My ex-Tutor, who spoke German well and did his PhD on the interwar European militaries, is a case in point. He went overseas, and thereafter only produced articles and books dealing with the period before 1919.
    But the tide is turning. It may be slow, but in the end, Truth will out.

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  • Brexit, Krexit and Crexit: Britain leaves the EU, Kurdistan declares independence from Iraq, Catalonia secedes from Spain – three massive political changes either under way or put on the political agenda by recent referendums. Three very different countries, but in all cases a conviction among a significant number of voters that they would be better...
  • @22pp22
    Great being Armenia too, They were slaughtered before the end of WWI. Then there was the massacre of the Iraqi Christians. I haven't seen anyone in Thessaloniki eating out of a garbage bin.

    The Armenians certainly slaughtered a lot of Turks too.

    Nice try.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    If Armenians supposedly slaughtered a lot of Turks, how is it that there are hardly any Armenians, or Assyrians, or Greeks left in Turkey today 2017, when 25% of Ottoman Turkey was Christian - Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks - circa 1915.

    Your genocidal, savage, nomad Muslim Turk kin from Uyguristan invaded Asia Minor, and over many centuries exterminated the indigenous Christian peoples, ending in the great Genocide of 1915-1923, when ~4 million Christians were exterminated.

    Try again you lying denialist filthy scum.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • In recent months, especially with the accession to the presidency of Donald Trump, there has been renewed talk, serious talk, ironic talk, about secession—particularly, from zealously Leftist anti-Trump militants in California and along the Pacific Rim areas of the United States. Advocates of what is called “Cal-exit” make their case that California, specifically, is not...
  • @Wally
    Your silly preamble aside, I highly recommend:

    The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry
    By Walter N. Sanning
    https://codoh.com/library/document/3954/?lang=en

    Besides merely saying you are a "holocaust revisionist", what are you doing about it?
    Where can the public read your views?

    I wonder why Polish government-in-exile lied about that, why Polish secret agents sent to the ghettoes and camps lied about it, why Jews lied about their relatives being dead, why my relatives lied about the fate of their neighbours… Probably everyone was part of the same global conspiracy.

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  • @Daniel H
    Excellent political essay on early modern Spain and the limited powers of the King and the jealously guarded rights, freedoms and customs of the various countries under his dominion. Early modern Spain had more democratic rights and freedoms from arbitrary power than England of the time, and just about any other European state, notwithstanding all the Anglophile rubbish we have been taught in school and propagandized on since.

    To give an idea of the limited powers of the the most powerful monarch in the world at the time, King Phillip II of Spain (and many other dominions) consult this essay on Antonio Perez, once the King's closest confident and later a dangerous enemy. The linked essay relates all the interesting details, which I won't go into, but what stands out is that Antonio Perez escaped from custody in Madrid, where he was on trial for a capital crime, that Philip II very much wanted pursued. With aides and sympathizers he escaped from jail, secured horses and rode all night to the border of Aragon (part of present day Catalonia). At the Aragon border Phillip's guards stopped their pursuit because warrants issued in Castille had no currency of law in Aragon. If Phillip II wanted to arrest Antonio Perez in Aragon he would have to go through the Aragon legal system to secure a warrant. This, of course, took time and before any action could be taken Antonio Perez had crossed the border into France, where he lived out his natural life.

    Compare this to the brutal and arbitrary rule of Henry VIII, a near contemporary of Phillip II (Philipp II married Henry's daughter, Mary, sister of Elizabeth I) who had many of his subjects arbitrarily murdered with the compliance of the English judiciary with nary a peep from parliament.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_P%C3%A9rez_(statesman)

    I’d say the powers of the Polish king were more limited, and the rights given to the nobility were also greater. For one, we could elect our king and legally rebel against him :D

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  • Brexit, Krexit and Crexit: Britain leaves the EU, Kurdistan declares independence from Iraq, Catalonia secedes from Spain – three massive political changes either under way or put on the political agenda by recent referendums. Three very different countries, but in all cases a conviction among a significant number of voters that they would be better...
  • @Mao Cheng Ji
    Yeah, "Referendums Are Always Doomed to Fail", "from the moment the polls closed on 23 June 2016, British society has been deeply divided, probably more so than at any time since the 17th-century civil war 375 years ago", and it's all "self-destructive idiocy".

    So, what about about all those the referenda for joining the EU? Joining the NATO? Those are fine, as far as you're concerned, I presume? People must accept that they are stupid, shut up, and follow wise and well-meaning liberal technocrats, eh?

    The Jacobite rising of 1745 didn’t indicate any divisions in British society.

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  • Catalonia, in the southeastern corner of Spain, is in the news.[Catalonia Government Declares Overwhelming Vote for Independence, by Raphael Minder, NYT, Oct 6, 2017] I was there once, back in my salad days, on my way to a camping vacation down the coast at a sleepy little whitewashed village named Oropesa del Mar, now all...
  • @Carroll Price
    I would suggest reviewing a series of videos (on U-tube) produced by TV host Tony Martin during the early 1980s on the role Jews played in the international and US slave trade. Many New England Jewish families today owe their immense inherited wealth directly to the slave trade.

    “I would suggest reviewing a series of videos (on U-tube) produced by TV host Tony Martin during the early 1980s on the role Jews played in the international and US slave trade.”

    I would suggest you address the points I made in Comment 168. While there is merit to Martin’s work, there are also significant holes in his scholarship. For example, Junius Rodriguez (The Historical Encyclopedia of World Slavery, Volume 1, ABC-CLIO, 1997) referenced…

    “A few Jews even became prominent slave owning planters in the Old South…as successful as these Jewish Southerners were by Southern standards, they represent a very tiny percentage of the 20,000 Jews residing in the antebellum South who could, or would, ever aspire to own a slave. About 5,000 Jews owned one or more slaves – about 1.25 percent of all the slaveowners in the antebellum South…For those Jews who did own slaves, the records demonstrate that they were not significantly different from other masters in their treatments of their bondsmen.”

    Note that the antebellum period covers the period before the Civil War, 1820-1860.

    If we account for all other factors, it ends up there is no statistically significant difference between Jews and the overall population in terms of slave ownership, especially since levels of slave ownership varied in southern states and southern cities. For example, this source
    (forward.com/articles/205455/slaves-of-charleston/?p=all) notes that in 1830 the proportion of Jewish residents of Charleston who owned slaves was similar to that of the general white population (83% versus 87%).

    Now, some would argue that these numbers are meaningless since they neglect to account for any other difference in demographics besides religion. For example, poorer families were less likely to own slaves than wealthier families. Would not purchasing slaves be a sign of one’s ethnic display of superiority or because of the family’s wealth, or both?

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  • @Carroll Price
    Then, by your own admission Southern slave owners were not the evil creatures they're depicted by the Hollywood establishment to have been. Of course, most mentally mature adults already knew that, but thanks for stating it in a most elegant manner.

    I was being sarcastic. But feel free to sell yourself in the reboot of this “peculiar institution”.

    http://www.endslaverynow.org/learn/modern-slave-narratives

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    • Replies: @Sean
    Southern slave owners "didn’t build that", they just happened to be born in the South and have a little money.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/buddhist-leader-spreads-hatred-of-muslims-in-myanmar-1507806002

    Buddhist Leader Spreads Hatred of Muslims in Myanmar
    With army’s blessing, the Ven. Wirathu stokes public support for purge of ethnic Rohingya
    By James Hookway
    Oct. 12, 2017 7:00 a.m. ET
    HPA-AN, Myanmar—The Venerable Wirathu hitched up his orange robes, stepped up onto a stage on a recent Sunday and tapped the microphone.

    “What kind of people are these Muslims?” he barked as a crowd of 1,000 in this small town east of Yangon cheered him on. “Do they eat rice through their backsides and excrete through their mouths? They are the opposite of everything in nature.”

     

    Buddhists don't believe in free will, neither do any Western scientists (though many think belief in it is a beneficial illusion). So what is "evil" if the good is not true?
    , @Carroll Price
    I'm way past the age to join the military, which is the nearest present thing to the "peculiar institution" here in the US. With slavery by the way, being far from a peculiar institution then or now. At present, an estimated 15 million humans continue living under slavery, with the vast majority confined to the continent of Africa, where it's been a common practice since the dawn of recorded history and long before. Since slavery is apparently your hot-button, I suggest you concentrate your concerns and efforts on the one area of the world where it continues to be practiced on a large scale. Along with female genital mutilation which also (like slavery) traces it's origin to Black Africa where it's still practiced today.
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  • In recent months, especially with the accession to the presidency of Donald Trump, there has been renewed talk, serious talk, ironic talk, about secession—particularly, from zealously Leftist anti-Trump militants in California and along the Pacific Rim areas of the United States. Advocates of what is called “Cal-exit” make their case that California, specifically, is not...
  • @ThreeCranes
    Thank you Wally, for correctly pointing out that his Logic was faulty.

    All A and H are HV doesn't mean that All HV are A and H.

    Actually I didn't even say that. What I said was that the Hispanics and Africans who arrived here within the last 20 years would be invited--nay, paid (as in Israel) to depart, irrespective of their voting proclivities.

    This is all premised on the Left's carrying through with their plan to secede from the benighted interior states of course, as they have threatened whenever an election doesn't go their way. I'm merely suggesting that we should hold the door for them as they flounce out in a huff.

    I don’t think so. First, when the South seceded, the North dragged them back. Today, if every county that voted Trump were to break away from Hillary voters they would take with them the most productive farming, manufacturing, mining, electricity generating sectors of the economy. The coastal Hillary voters are the banking, information sectors of the economy. Now which of the two is independent? Which is dependent?

    like come the fuck on :) at the very least, don’t try to deny it when I can simply quote you.

    it is a good thing unz review comments cannot be altered after the first 5 minutes :)

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  • @Wally
    In reality he cannot really move. The US government will still force him to pay US taxes to support the parasites.

    And do read what he said:
    "All Hispanics and Africans who came here within the last 20 years are free to go home ..."

    Pay attention, he never said "hillary voters were all hispanics or africans ".

    Thank you Wally, for correctly pointing out that his Logic was faulty.

    All A and H are HV doesn’t mean that All HV are A and H.

    Actually I didn’t even say that. What I said was that the Hispanics and Africans who arrived here within the last 20 years would be invited–nay, paid (as in Israel) to depart, irrespective of their voting proclivities.

    This is all premised on the Left’s carrying through with their plan to secede from the benighted interior states of course, as they have threatened whenever an election doesn’t go their way. I’m merely suggesting that we should hold the door for them as they flounce out in a huff.

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    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    I don’t think so. First, when the South seceded, the North dragged them back. Today, if every county that voted Trump were to break away from Hillary voters they would take with them the most productive farming, manufacturing, mining, electricity generating sectors of the economy. The coastal Hillary voters are the banking, information sectors of the economy. Now which of the two is independent? Which is dependent?
     
    like come the fuck on :) at the very least, don't try to deny it when I can simply quote you.

    it is a good thing unz review comments cannot be altered after the first 5 minutes :)

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  • @simplyamazed
    Although I agree that this historical overview of Catalonia since the 1200's is quite good, I still have a few quibbles and one big caveat. First quibble: Catalonia was joined to the kingship of Aragon, but was functionally separate from the State of Aragon and generally left alone by the various kings over the next several centuries. Second quibble: Catalonia rebelled quite regularly since the 1400's when its neighbours sought to encroach on traditional Catalan rights and prerogatives. It has never been long an easy member of what became the Spanish nation following the reconquest.

    My caveat is the part of the history that has been left out. Catalonia existed as a distinct entity or one allied with its (now) French neighbour. Catalonia has had strong ties with its Mediterranean neighbours and with France during its long historical period of development following the fall of Rome in the West. During the existence of El Andelus under caliphate rule and later after various statelets splintered off of the caliphate, Catalonia often allied with the muslim states as well as having strong ties northward. Many of its feudal rulers were descendents of Visigoths who descended out of the decaying Roman Empire and set up rule in many parts of Iberia. This long formative period of Catalan history can still be felt in many Catalan customs and in the Catalan language.

    So, is it surprising that a large portion of the people of Catalonia might have a strong independent spirit and outlook. However, I agree that independence in today's context needs more than a vibrant history, language and customs. It needs a strong and functioning administration, government and military to defend itself and its borders. It needs to preserve and protect and grow its economy. It also needs international recognition.

    I am ignorant on this issue, how much does Catalan nationalism correlate with the Catalan language ?

    The Balearic islands (Majorca etc) are Catalan speakers. Would they want to be part of Catalonia ?

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  • Catalonia, in the southeastern corner of Spain, is in the news.[Catalonia Government Declares Overwhelming Vote for Independence, by Raphael Minder, NYT, Oct 6, 2017] I was there once, back in my salad days, on my way to a camping vacation down the coast at a sleepy little whitewashed village named Oropesa del Mar, now all...
  • Well, the Californian secessionists are taking heart from Catalonia, and they actually have a pretty good political and legal strategy for seceding successfully:

    http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/article178435876.html#0

    Or, it would be a good strategy if they actually had majority support for secession . . . There is this nagging little problem that the majority of people in California don’t actually favor secession and would vote no . . . but then when has not having popular support ever stopped leftists from going ahead and doing what they want anyhow?

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  • In recent months, especially with the accession to the presidency of Donald Trump, there has been renewed talk, serious talk, ironic talk, about secession—particularly, from zealously Leftist anti-Trump militants in California and along the Pacific Rim areas of the United States. Advocates of what is called “Cal-exit” make their case that California, specifically, is not...
  • @RadicalCenter
    A cogent analysis by all Three Cranes (Martin, Niles, and Fraser? ;)

    Seriously, I would offer a partial counter-argument, but only a partial one. The rest of the country buys enormous quantities of fruits, vegetables, and nuts (the jokes write themselves) from California, right? I assume CA would be glad to keep selling to the rest of the USA, but with the farther-left, more anti-white government that would come to power in an independent CA, who knows. They might elect to sell only to other countries, and China and India can buy up anything CA can produce in that regard.

    On the other hand, as California grows ever more over-populated, it further exceeds the carrying capacity of this territory. Among other baleful effects, we see that California droughts become more common, more prolonged, and more severe.

    There are increasing battles over agricultural producers' access to the scarce water supplies of this State. Dire results seem almost inevitable as the population is allowed to keep growing without an end in sight.

    In fact, the loons who run Cali now -- and the even loonier loons who will run an independent Cali -- will make it a badge of honor to show how many Mexicans they can admit to settle on their land, and how fast. That will intensify the drought and hasten the day when Cali can no longer maintain anything like its current ag output. God help them, and us, when that day comes.

    Just in:

    California secessionists think their path to independence is easier than Catalonia’s

    http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/article178435876.html

    excerpt:
    “There are definitely similarities in the fiscal situation – we both give more than we get back,” said Dave Marin, director of research and policy for the California Freedom Coalition. “But there’s more flexibility in the U.S. Constitution for secession than there is in the Spanish one. California has more tools available to it.”

    Yeah right. Try that without many interior & northern counties, and the enormous federal contracts & massive federal subsidies that CA receives.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    Once and for all, the Northern Counties of California are not conservative at all.

    Where did you get that idea? Just because its a rural area where people maintain wells and propane tanks and can build sheds and fix their cars and grow weed? They may be rural, but they are not rural Iowans.

    The interior counties are mostly hispanic citizens who can vote and the farmers and business men who live off hispanic workers. The biggest importers of hispamics in this country are farmers and food processors and that is what is in the interior counties of California.

    Compared to the interior central valley, Los Angeles has few hispanics. Who do you think lives in the interior counties? Scots Irish? Anglos saxons? No, its hispanics.

    The northern counties population pretty much consists of American indians, ultra liberal weed growers
    (our biggest crop) old hippies and their hippie grandchildren and people on welfare. For instance the biggest employer in Humboldt county is the indian rez and the state university. Both the indian rez and the university like all universities are ultra liberal democrat.
    , @Alden
    For what's it worth, Marin is a hispanic name. Don't know if it means anything, Wally, maybe you should take a drive up and down the interior valley from Chico to San Diego and take a good look at who lives there. The population are not conservatives.
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  • @Wally
    In reality he cannot really move. The US government will still force him to pay US taxes to support the parasites.

    And do read what he said:
    "All Hispanics and Africans who came here within the last 20 years are free to go home ..."

    Pay attention, he never said "hillary voters were all hispanics or africans ".

    Where can they read yours?

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  • @Verymuchalive
    Philip II wanted to conquer the Netherlands and England and enforce Catholicism on
    the conquered populations. How would that be a good thing ?

    >>Philip II wanted to conquer the Netherlands and England and enforce Catholicism on
    the conquered populations. How would that be a good thing ?

    Because Roman Catholicism is true.

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    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    Didn't most of the English and the Dutch think so about their forms of Protestantism ?
    The conquest of England and Holland would have involved mass slaughter and great cruelty.
    Thankfully, the God of Love didn't permit it.
    , @Alden
    Check out how Henry 8 and Thomas Cromwell enforced the CofE on Britain because Henry couldn't produce healthy children. Henry personally signed 72,000 execution warrants. That doesn't count the various rebellions he put down. Or his rebellious cousins the children of his Mother's royal York sisters who married into far greater families than the Tudors and Beauforts.
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  • When national states are owned by financial capital, when all the political parties and the mass media are also owned and crow in unison and have the same policy of austerity followed by more austerity, when public infrastructure is left to rot, or be sold-off to these same cartels or their minions. when their is no choice except accepting their choice — then breaking up the nation is best — for then some semblance of control falls into the hands of the people.

    Catalonia has autonomy in all the things that are not critical, those are kept at Madrid. Some control is better than no control — we will be seeing more of this, much much more.

    Where national governments behave well national integrity is firm despite differences. The tides of history have not made this a benefit that is widely shared. A wise national government would use this to change its own policies to keep the mini-nation, Madrid has shown no wisdom but has a superabundance of stupidity — stupidity is its own cure.

    This is not an abstract debate, it is not about whether it is a good idea or not it is what people want, they want to have some say in their future that is otherwise denied, they want Scotland cut away from London, they want Catalonia cut away from Madrid, Crimea did not want to share Kiev’s fate, nor does the Nova Russia, North Italy has had the bank marfiso and wants no more or it.

    People do as they must, Governments have to change from national suicide to hope. Marcon in Paris threatens France because he does not threaten the banks foreign and national, he obeys their wishes.

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  • Being from Quebec I think I know a thing or two about referenda for independence, having gone through the 1980 and 1995 ones. When the movement for Quebec independence emerged in the 1960′s the Canadian government, itself just recently emancipated from British rules by the Statutes of Westminster in 1931 but still dominated by imperial thinking, reacted with a heavy hand. Under pressure from the rest of the country (and perhaps from foreign chancelleries), it conflated the generally pacific and conservative Quebec population with highly marginal groups promoting social changes through violent actions, and used it as pretext to briefly impose martial laws on the Province in 1970. At the time I was at a boarding school north of Montreal run by the Marist Brothers, hardly a revolutionary hotbed, and vividly remember to this day the reaction of our class advisor on the news. He was outraged by this wide brushing move by the Canadian government. He said to us, his 12, 13 year-old pupils, “take your freedom and throw it in the paper basket on you way out of class. You have none anymore!”. I am not aware of any parents who protested to the school about his outburst. This action only led to the election in 1976 of a party promoting independence. An idea originally supported, pacifically, by a small proportion of the population had become mainstream, an unintended consequence of the action of the central government. The referendum of 1980 was however lost by the promoters of independence by a significant margin .

    There are clearly some parallels to draw with the attitude of the Spanish government in the current Catalan crisis.

    Now on with the rest of the story. Ignoring language, the Quebec movement for independence have different drivers than its Catalonian counterpart. Also, the descendants of the French settlers who colonized the Saint-Lawrence valley, forming a majority in Quebec and important minorities elsewhere in the country, have a greater influence on Canadian politics than the Catalans appear to have in federal Spain. One just have to consult the list of Canadian Prime Ministers since the formation of the Confederation; 8 out of 23 are from this group, including the current one. This influence, combined with a certain sympathy in English Canada toward the Quebec movement, helped the central government devising a vastly different strategy for the 1995 referendum (it would require more paragraphs to explain the resurgence of the separatist movements in the 1990′s). That time, independence was rejected by the slightest margin, equivalent to a few ten thousands voters over a population of 7.5 millions. Yet, beside some disputable rhetoric, the Canadian government never threatened the use of force in case of a positive result, nor made any move to contest the legality of the vote. It served its cause in my opinion.

    All this led to a rather ironical situation. Beside Newfoundland in 1949, Quebec is the only population ever consulted on its belonging to the Canadian Confederation. And it acquiesced to it not only once, but twice! (The formation of the Confederation in 1867 was largely an imperial affair, concluded behind closed doors shortly after the Secession War to prevent the North American British colonies to be engulfed piecemeal by the U.S.). To this day the independence movement remains an important political force in Quebec but there is currently no third referendum in sight. This can be explained by a strong desire for appeasement coming from all sides following the nail biting results of 1995, resulting in a change of attitude from the central government. It is also explained, principally in my mind, by the fact that the traditional economical inferiority of French speakers, having its origin in the British conquest of 1760, has largely subsided since. This inferiority has disappeared slowly starting from the 1950′s. Contrary to the Catalonian separatism, this was a main driver for the Quebec one.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    Thanks for a comment by someone who knows what he is writing about.
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  • Usually a nation is a territory whose independence is backed and declared by NATO and its bankers in order to grab resources and pass pipelines through it.

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  • @Wally
    In reality he cannot really move. The US government will still force him to pay US taxes to support the parasites.

    And do read what he said:
    "All Hispanics and Africans who came here within the last 20 years are free to go home ..."

    Pay attention, he never said "hillary voters were all hispanics or africans ".

    my comment was about “hillary voters” as were his comment that I responded to :)

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  • Catalonia, in the southeastern corner of Spain, is in the news.[Catalonia Government Declares Overwhelming Vote for Independence, by Raphael Minder, NYT, Oct 6, 2017] I was there once, back in my salad days, on my way to a camping vacation down the coast at a sleepy little whitewashed village named Oropesa del Mar, now all...
  • @Corvinus
    "Jews were involved with the slave trade on about the same level Jews are involved with Wall Street. Which is to say, they owned it."

    According to the research of Eli Faber, Jews did NOT play a leading role as the financial backers or transporters in the transatlantic or Caribbean slave trades. For starters, no ship fitted out for the slave trade that originated in Great Britain was under the direct or indirect control of a Jew. From 1709-1807, there are 934 recorded voyages in which Rhode Island merchants were responsible for procuring 106,000 slaves. Now, Jews arrived in Newport as early as 1758. On the eve of the Revolution, they were estimated to be around thirty families. According to historical records Faber used (e.g. naval office shipping lists, censuses, tax records) that identified merchants and planters as Jewish, there were 347 slave ships sent to Africa by Rhode Island slave traders from 1761-1774, with 21 being funded by Aaron Lopez, a Portuguese Jew. That means 326 voyages were underwritten by non-Jews during this time frame. Of course, Jews played a role in the peddling of human flesh. The extent in this particular case is nominal compared to other ethnic groups. Of course, one has to take into serious consideration the other northern ports that imported slaves as well as their ethnicity. Rhode Island is only part of the overall picture.

    I would suggest reviewing a series of videos (on U-tube) produced by TV host Tony Martin during the early 1980s on the role Jews played in the international and US slave trade. Many New England Jewish families today owe their immense inherited wealth directly to the slave trade.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "I would suggest reviewing a series of videos (on U-tube) produced by TV host Tony Martin during the early 1980s on the role Jews played in the international and US slave trade."

    I would suggest you address the points I made in Comment 168. While there is merit to Martin’s work, there are also significant holes in his scholarship. For example, Junius Rodriguez (The Historical Encyclopedia of World Slavery, Volume 1, ABC-CLIO, 1997) referenced…

    “A few Jews even became prominent slave owning planters in the Old South…as successful as these Jewish Southerners were by Southern standards, they represent a very tiny percentage of the 20,000 Jews residing in the antebellum South who could, or would, ever aspire to own a slave. About 5,000 Jews owned one or more slaves – about 1.25 percent of all the slaveowners in the antebellum South…For those Jews who did own slaves, the records demonstrate that they were not significantly different from other masters in their treatments of their bondsmen.”

    Note that the antebellum period covers the period before the Civil War, 1820-1860.

    If we account for all other factors, it ends up there is no statistically significant difference between Jews and the overall population in terms of slave ownership, especially since levels of slave ownership varied in southern states and southern cities. For example, this source
    (forward.com/articles/205455/slaves-of-charleston/?p=all) notes that in 1830 the proportion of Jewish residents of Charleston who owned slaves was similar to that of the general white population (83% versus 87%).

    Now, some would argue that these numbers are meaningless since they neglect to account for any other difference in demographics besides religion. For example, poorer families were less likely to own slaves than wealthier families. Would not purchasing slaves be a sign of one’s ethnic display of superiority or because of the family’s wealth, or both?
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  • @Corvinus
    "If this is indeed true, then, by your own admission, human slavery was not always necessarily immoral to individuals who practiced it."

    Of course those who engaged in slavery personally believed it was other than immoral. Why wouldn't they since they are in control of matters? But, since you seemingly are a fan of slavery, why don't you sell yourself, your wife, and your children into this wonderful institution. It's everything you hoped it will be and more.

    Then, by your own admission Southern slave owners were not the evil creatures they’re depicted by the Hollywood establishment to have been. Of course, most mentally mature adults already knew that, but thanks for stating it in a most elegant manner.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    I was being sarcastic. But feel free to sell yourself in the reboot of this "peculiar institution".

    http://www.endslaverynow.org/learn/modern-slave-narratives
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  • In recent months, especially with the accession to the presidency of Donald Trump, there has been renewed talk, serious talk, ironic talk, about secession—particularly, from zealously Leftist anti-Trump militants in California and along the Pacific Rim areas of the United States. Advocates of what is called “Cal-exit” make their case that California, specifically, is not...
  • @Astuteobservor II
    and why don't you move instead of them? :)

    and I love how you think hillary voters were all hispanics or africans :)

    In reality he cannot really move. The US government will still force him to pay US taxes to support the parasites.

    And do read what he said:
    “All Hispanics and Africans who came here within the last 20 years are free to go home …”

    Pay attention, he never said “hillary voters were all hispanics or africans “.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    my comment was about "hillary voters" as were his comment that I responded to :)
    , @Anon
    Where can they read yours?
    , @ThreeCranes
    Thank you Wally, for correctly pointing out that his Logic was faulty.

    All A and H are HV doesn't mean that All HV are A and H.

    Actually I didn't even say that. What I said was that the Hispanics and Africans who arrived here within the last 20 years would be invited--nay, paid (as in Israel) to depart, irrespective of their voting proclivities.

    This is all premised on the Left's carrying through with their plan to secede from the benighted interior states of course, as they have threatened whenever an election doesn't go their way. I'm merely suggesting that we should hold the door for them as they flounce out in a huff.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Verymuchalive
    A non-automatic response, marvellous ! You must be back from your holiday !
    Before you get on to me. Let me tell you a true story. You were probably at primary school at the time.
    Circa 1980, young master Verymuchalive was a student at an ancient British University. One of his tutors was a young ( ok, 30+ ) Modern History lecturer. One boozy afternoon in an ancient pub, tutor tells myself and another young Aryan male that the Holocaust is a load of BS. He tells us to look up the copy of the Encyclopedia Judaica ( the Jews' own Encyclopedia) in the University Library. It details the Jewish Population in 1938 and 1950. The disparity is -1.1 million. Given natural increase during the period, the probable gross population loss is about 1.5 million during the period.
    When you take into account the number of Jewish soldiers who died in battle, or civilians who died of disease and malnutrition, my tutor thought only about 500,000 Jewish civilians and POWs died in concentration camps and elsewhere, whether from execution, overwork, abuse or disease or malnutrition. We checked EJ for ourselves and the figures were correct. Less than a year later, the article was altered drastically.
    I believe the Jewish writer of the article was an early "Holocaust Revisionist" in today's parlance.
    He was a brave man and I salute him. I do hope he did not suffer too much persecution. Truth must out, but it often takes a horrible toll of the bravest.
    As for my tutor, he swore us to secrecy. Even then, it could wreck his career. He eventually became a Professor of History, but I'm not telling you where.
    I have been a "holocaust revisionist" ever since.

    Your silly preamble aside, I highly recommend:

    The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry
    By Walter N. Sanning

    https://codoh.com/library/document/3954/?lang=en

    Besides merely saying you are a “holocaust revisionist”, what are you doing about it?
    Where can the public read your views?

    Read More
    • Replies: @szopen
    I wonder why Polish government-in-exile lied about that, why Polish secret agents sent to the ghettoes and camps lied about it, why Jews lied about their relatives being dead, why my relatives lied about the fate of their neighbours... Probably everyone was part of the same global conspiracy.
    , @Verymuchalive
    I have not published any articles on the matter because I do not have the expertise - my background is mainly C18th and Economic History. Also, I have not engaged in historical research for a very long time, as I am employed in private business.
    Obviously I have read numerous books and articles over the years, including Sanning's. The point I was trying to get across was that even then there were people in Academia who rejected the Holocaust - 6 million Jews and others gassed - as a propaganda hoax. They held " Holocaust Revisionist " views, as you, I and apparently Prof Cathey do.
    In the 1980s things were much more difficult. There was no internet and few publishers were willing to print works. My ex-Tutor, who spoke German well and did his PhD on the interwar European militaries, is a case in point. He went overseas, and thereafter only produced articles and books dealing with the period before 1919.
    But the tide is turning. It may be slow, but in the end, Truth will out.
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  • ‘Every people has the god-given right to mismanage their own affairs’ Margolis Law #3   I’ve always been a rebel, revolutionary, iconoclast and all-around bad boy. Naturally, I have sympathy for most revolutionary movements. The problem is, many revolutions don’t make political or economic sense, but they do make one feel good – at least...
  • Arriba Catalonia Española !!!! , yes sir , and Arriba Texas , Arriba California , arriba Nuevo Mexico , arriba Arizona , arriba Colorado , arriba Nevada , arriba Florida ………

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  • Catalonia, in the southeastern corner of Spain, is in the news.[Catalonia Government Declares Overwhelming Vote for Independence, by Raphael Minder, NYT, Oct 6, 2017] I was there once, back in my salad days, on my way to a camping vacation down the coast at a sleepy little whitewashed village named Oropesa del Mar, now all...
  • @Carroll Price

    Of course it is. The premise is clear in that EVERYONE OUGHT to realize that any and all moral standards are relative. That is, a person who insists that a moral standard is absolute is TOTALLY WRONG.
     
    If this is indeed true, then, by your own admission, human slavery was not always necessarily immoral to individuals who practiced it. An admission which when considered in light of earlier adamant positions taken on human slavery, comes as somewhat of a surprise.

    “If this is indeed true, then, by your own admission, human slavery was not always necessarily immoral to individuals who practiced it.”

    Of course those who engaged in slavery personally believed it was other than immoral. Why wouldn’t they since they are in control of matters? But, since you seemingly are a fan of slavery, why don’t you sell yourself, your wife, and your children into this wonderful institution. It’s everything you hoped it will be and more.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Carroll Price
    Then, by your own admission Southern slave owners were not the evil creatures they're depicted by the Hollywood establishment to have been. Of course, most mentally mature adults already knew that, but thanks for stating it in a most elegant manner.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “Jews were involved with the slave trade on about the same level Jews are involved with Wall Street. Which is to say, they owned it.”

    According to the research of Eli Faber, Jews did NOT play a leading role as the financial backers or transporters in the transatlantic or Caribbean slave trades. For starters, no ship fitted out for the slave trade that originated in Great Britain was under the direct or indirect control of a Jew. From 1709-1807, there are 934 recorded voyages in which Rhode Island merchants were responsible for procuring 106,000 slaves. Now, Jews arrived in Newport as early as 1758. On the eve of the Revolution, they were estimated to be around thirty families. According to historical records Faber used (e.g. naval office shipping lists, censuses, tax records) that identified merchants and planters as Jewish, there were 347 slave ships sent to Africa by Rhode Island slave traders from 1761-1774, with 21 being funded by Aaron Lopez, a Portuguese Jew. That means 326 voyages were underwritten by non-Jews during this time frame. Of course, Jews played a role in the peddling of human flesh. The extent in this particular case is nominal compared to other ethnic groups. Of course, one has to take into serious consideration the other northern ports that imported slaves as well as their ethnicity. Rhode Island is only part of the overall picture.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Carroll Price
    I would suggest reviewing a series of videos (on U-tube) produced by TV host Tony Martin during the early 1980s on the role Jews played in the international and US slave trade. Many New England Jewish families today owe their immense inherited wealth directly to the slave trade.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • In recent months, especially with the accession to the presidency of Donald Trump, there has been renewed talk, serious talk, ironic talk, about secession—particularly, from zealously Leftist anti-Trump militants in California and along the Pacific Rim areas of the United States. Advocates of what is called “Cal-exit” make their case that California, specifically, is not...
  • @ThreeCranes
    If they don't work, they don't eat. They will decamp for greener pastures.

    All Hispanics and Africans who came here within the last 20 years are free to go home or leave and live in California, the new Republic of Texas Sur, NYC, Washington D.C., Miami and/or Boston. These city/states will be separated by a wall from the rest of the civilized portion of the new Confederated States of America which will enjoy a government that believes in true diversity by allowing each state some measure of autonomy as was originally conceived by the founders and as exists in Switzerland today (as attested above).

    and why don’t you move instead of them? :)

    and I love how you think hillary voters were all hispanics or africans :)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    In reality he cannot really move. The US government will still force him to pay US taxes to support the parasites.

    And do read what he said:
    "All Hispanics and Africans who came here within the last 20 years are free to go home ..."

    Pay attention, he never said "hillary voters were all hispanics or africans ".
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Daniel H
    Excellent political essay on early modern Spain and the limited powers of the King and the jealously guarded rights, freedoms and customs of the various countries under his dominion. Early modern Spain had more democratic rights and freedoms from arbitrary power than England of the time, and just about any other European state, notwithstanding all the Anglophile rubbish we have been taught in school and propagandized on since.

    To give an idea of the limited powers of the the most powerful monarch in the world at the time, King Phillip II of Spain (and many other dominions) consult this essay on Antonio Perez, once the King's closest confident and later a dangerous enemy. The linked essay relates all the interesting details, which I won't go into, but what stands out is that Antonio Perez escaped from custody in Madrid, where he was on trial for a capital crime, that Philip II very much wanted pursued. With aides and sympathizers he escaped from jail, secured horses and rode all night to the border of Aragon (part of present day Catalonia). At the Aragon border Phillip's guards stopped their pursuit because warrants issued in Castille had no currency of law in Aragon. If Phillip II wanted to arrest Antonio Perez in Aragon he would have to go through the Aragon legal system to secure a warrant. This, of course, took time and before any action could be taken Antonio Perez had crossed the border into France, where he lived out his natural life.

    Compare this to the brutal and arbitrary rule of Henry VIII, a near contemporary of Phillip II (Philipp II married Henry's daughter, Mary, sister of Elizabeth I) who had many of his subjects arbitrarily murdered with the compliance of the English judiciary with nary a peep from parliament.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_P%C3%A9rez_(statesman)

    Philip II wanted to conquer the Netherlands and England and enforce Catholicism on
    the conquered populations. How would that be a good thing ?

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    • Replies: @Daniel H
    >>Philip II wanted to conquer the Netherlands and England and enforce Catholicism on
    the conquered populations. How would that be a good thing ?

    Because Roman Catholicism is true.
    , @Alden
    The Netherlands BELONGED to Phillip and Spain at the time of the rebellion. It was part of his Father Charles 5 of the Holy Roman Empire / Charles 1 of Spain inheritance from the Phillip's grandfather, Maximillan Hapsburg Holy Roman Emperor.

    Netherlands and what is now Belgium were always provinces of the Duchies of Burgundy, Cleves, and other earldoms or Grafdoms or whatever and part of the Hapsburg Empire.

    When Charles 5 & 1 died he, as Emperor, gave that insignificant little province to his son Phillip.
    France was always the most powerful and important enemy of the Empire. So the French and English sent rabble rousers to Holland to revolt against Phillip of Spain.

    It was not an invasion. It was an attempt to put down a provincial rebellion, similar to the American civil war. The Hapsburg/Spanish Empire troops were already there. The Netherlands, with vast help from France, England, and various Germanic countries won that rebellion. It was almost 500 years ago.

    The Dutch Reformed Religion as it was called, believed that only 144,000 people would go to heaven. But everyone had to behave as though they would go to heaven by living an upright and moral life. Sounds like a good idea to me. Although why if one knew one would go to hell if not one of the "elect" as they were called why lead a moral life. It was the same as the CAtholic thing of "do good, avoid evil if you want ot go to heaven"

    Why is this relevant to Catalonian independence anyway? Catalonia has been part of Spain since the 1600's. The play Cyrano is set during that war between France and Spain. Spain had Belgium, France had Catalonia. At the conclusion of the war they exchanged the provinces. It was when Louis 13 was King of France.

    Really Jilles, the great struggle of the Dutch against Spain is not relevant to every subject under discussion. Especially as you never mention it would never have happened without the help of England, France and other countries.

    , @Alden
    Phillip did not want to conquer the Netherlands. He wanted to keep it as it belonged to his Hapsburg ancestors since around 800 AD
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Daniel H
    Excellent political essay on early modern Spain and the limited powers of the King and the jealously guarded rights, freedoms and customs of the various countries under his dominion. Early modern Spain had more democratic rights and freedoms from arbitrary power than England of the time, and just about any other European state, notwithstanding all the Anglophile rubbish we have been taught in school and propagandized on since.

    To give an idea of the limited powers of the the most powerful monarch in the world at the time, King Phillip II of Spain (and many other dominions) consult this essay on Antonio Perez, once the King's closest confident and later a dangerous enemy. The linked essay relates all the interesting details, which I won't go into, but what stands out is that Antonio Perez escaped from custody in Madrid, where he was on trial for a capital crime, that Philip II very much wanted pursued. With aides and sympathizers he escaped from jail, secured horses and rode all night to the border of Aragon (part of present day Catalonia). At the Aragon border Phillip's guards stopped their pursuit because warrants issued in Castille had no currency of law in Aragon. If Phillip II wanted to arrest Antonio Perez in Aragon he would have to go through the Aragon legal system to secure a warrant. This, of course, took time and before any action could be taken Antonio Perez had crossed the border into France, where he lived out his natural life.

    Compare this to the brutal and arbitrary rule of Henry VIII, a near contemporary of Phillip II (Philipp II married Henry's daughter, Mary, sister of Elizabeth I) who had many of his subjects arbitrarily murdered with the compliance of the English judiciary with nary a peep from parliament.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_P%C3%A9rez_(statesman)

    Yes. The Bourbon dynasty that ruled in the 1700s (and later through many contested years) spent a century erasing the liberties of Spaniards in the name of progress. And they weren’t the last (or the first, really), either.

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  • @Wally
    Except that Hitler's 'Table Talk' is highly questionable, little more than hearsay.

    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10752

    A non-automatic response, marvellous ! You must be back from your holiday !
    Before you get on to me. Let me tell you a true story. You were probably at primary school at the time.
    Circa 1980, young master Verymuchalive was a student at an ancient British University. One of his tutors was a young ( ok, 30+ ) Modern History lecturer. One boozy afternoon in an ancient pub, tutor tells myself and another young Aryan male that the Holocaust is a load of BS. He tells us to look up the copy of the Encyclopedia Judaica ( the Jews’ own Encyclopedia) in the University Library. It details the Jewish Population in 1938 and 1950. The disparity is -1.1 million. Given natural increase during the period, the probable gross population loss is about 1.5 million during the period.
    When you take into account the number of Jewish soldiers who died in battle, or civilians who died of disease and malnutrition, my tutor thought only about 500,000 Jewish civilians and POWs died in concentration camps and elsewhere, whether from execution, overwork, abuse or disease or malnutrition. We checked EJ for ourselves and the figures were correct. Less than a year later, the article was altered drastically.
    I believe the Jewish writer of the article was an early “Holocaust Revisionist” in today’s parlance.
    He was a brave man and I salute him. I do hope he did not suffer too much persecution. Truth must out, but it often takes a horrible toll of the bravest.
    As for my tutor, he swore us to secrecy. Even then, it could wreck his career. He eventually became a Professor of History, but I’m not telling you where.
    I have been a “holocaust revisionist” ever since.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    Your silly preamble aside, I highly recommend:

    The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry
    By Walter N. Sanning
    https://codoh.com/library/document/3954/?lang=en

    Besides merely saying you are a "holocaust revisionist", what are you doing about it?
    Where can the public read your views?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @for-the-record
    He [Murray] even claims today’s Spaniards had Muslim ancestors, a typical leftist talking point.

    I'm not sure exactly what Murray said, but he's certainly right that there is a significant African (Muslim) element in Spanish ancestry. Hence the (formerly) common expression "Africa begins at the Pyrenees", popularized by the (now "discredited") American economist and racial theorist William Zebina Ripley (1867-1941).

    Iberia stands out among other southern European populations as having the highest levels of ancestry originating in North Africa as well as in Sub-Saharan Africa, with the concentration of both being highest on the western and southern parts of the peninsula, which is largely ascribed to the long Islamic presence in the Iberian peninsula and possibly African slavery.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula
     

    Beyond the Pyrenees begins Africa. Once that natural barrier is crossed, the Mediterranean racial type in all its purity confronts us. The human phenomena is entirely parallel with the sudden transition to the flora and fauna of the south. The Iberian population thus isolated from the rest of Europe, are allied in all important anthropological respects with the peoples inhabiting Africa north of the Sahara, from the Red Sea to the Atlantic.

    William Z. Ripley, The Races of Europe: A Sociological Study, 1899
     

    Africa begins at the Pyrenees and the wogs begin at Calais.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Excellent political essay on early modern Spain and the limited powers of the King and the jealously guarded rights, freedoms and customs of the various countries under his dominion. Early modern Spain had more democratic rights and freedoms from arbitrary power than England of the time, and just about any other European state, notwithstanding all the Anglophile rubbish we have been taught in school and propagandized on since.

    To give an idea of the limited powers of the the most powerful monarch in the world at the time, King Phillip II of Spain (and many other dominions) consult this essay on Antonio Perez, once the King’s closest confident and later a dangerous enemy. The linked essay relates all the interesting details, which I won’t go into, but what stands out is that Antonio Perez escaped from custody in Madrid, where he was on trial for a capital crime, that Philip II very much wanted pursued. With aides and sympathizers he escaped from jail, secured horses and rode all night to the border of Aragon (part of present day Catalonia). At the Aragon border Phillip’s guards stopped their pursuit because warrants issued in Castille had no currency of law in Aragon. If Phillip II wanted to arrest Antonio Perez in Aragon he would have to go through the Aragon legal system to secure a warrant. This, of course, took time and before any action could be taken Antonio Perez had crossed the border into France, where he lived out his natural life.

    Compare this to the brutal and arbitrary rule of Henry VIII, a near contemporary of Phillip II (Philipp II married Henry’s daughter, Mary, sister of Elizabeth I) who had many of his subjects arbitrarily murdered with the compliance of the English judiciary with nary a peep from parliament.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_P%C3%A9rez_(statesman)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Yes. The Bourbon dynasty that ruled in the 1700s (and later through many contested years) spent a century erasing the liberties of Spaniards in the name of progress. And they weren't the last (or the first, really), either.
    , @Verymuchalive
    Philip II wanted to conquer the Netherlands and England and enforce Catholicism on
    the conquered populations. How would that be a good thing ?
    , @szopen
    I'd say the powers of the Polish king were more limited, and the rights given to the nobility were also greater. For one, we could elect our king and legally rebel against him :D
    , @Alden
    Henry personally signed 72,000 execution warrants, That included most of his relatives on his Mother's York side. the rest were just random people who said Latin prayers. Henry 8 spent the fortune left to him by his Beaufort grandmother and his father. He was going bankrupt when he decided to found his own church.

    Thomas Cromwell saved the finances of the Kingdom by confiscating Catholic church property. Many historians above the middle school wikepedia level believe Cromwell engineered the death of Anne Boleyn because of the financial problems. Anne wanted the confiscated church property to be used for roads and bridges and hospitals and charities that the Catholics had been doing for centuries, not sold to aristocrats to build bigger palaces. But Cromwell engineered her death and he and Henry closed down the existing charities, stopped maintaining the roads and bridges and henry had more money to spend on $5,ooo a yard fabrics and more and bigger palaces.

    Read about the murder of the Duke of Buckingham and Princess Margaret de la Pole Countess of Salisbury who had much , much better rights to the throne than Henry 7 and 8. Henry 8 was more like Stalin than any 16 century European King. He kept his sister Margaret Tudor, Queen of Scotland's children in the tower most of their lives.

    When Henry died, the entire country, especially the military, aristocracy, clergy and gentry breathed a sigh of relief. In the 1540's he forbade reading of the English or Latin bible because only he, Henry the great could interpete the bible. Lots of protestants were executed for reading the bible after that decree.

    All you anti Catholic bigots should read about what Henry did to Protestants. He burned them rather than hanged them, a far worse death. I believe England is the only country in the wold and always has been the only country in the world where the head of state is also the head of the state religion. And they don't even go to clergy school and become clergy. Even the strictest muslim countries always have separate heads of state and heads of religion
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  • @Matra
    I don't consider Spain v Catalonia any of my business so I'm neutral but Murray seems to be an ideologue more interested in narrative than truth. He even claims today's Spaniards had Muslim ancestors, a typical leftist talking point. He's not very credible.

    He [Murray] even claims today’s Spaniards had Muslim ancestors, a typical leftist talking point.

    I’m not sure exactly what Murray said, but he’s certainly right that there is a significant African (Muslim) element in Spanish ancestry. Hence the (formerly) common expression “Africa begins at the Pyrenees”, popularized by the (now “discredited”) American economist and racial theorist William Zebina Ripley (1867-1941).

    Iberia stands out among other southern European populations as having the highest levels of ancestry originating in North Africa as well as in Sub-Saharan Africa, with the concentration of both being highest on the western and southern parts of the peninsula, which is largely ascribed to the long Islamic presence in the Iberian peninsula and possibly African slavery.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula

    Beyond the Pyrenees begins Africa. Once that natural barrier is crossed, the Mediterranean racial type in all its purity confronts us. The human phenomena is entirely parallel with the sudden transition to the flora and fauna of the south. The Iberian population thus isolated from the rest of Europe, are allied in all important anthropological respects with the peoples inhabiting Africa north of the Sahara, from the Red Sea to the Atlantic.

    William Z. Ripley, The Races of Europe: A Sociological Study, 1899

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Africa begins at the Pyrenees and the wogs begin at Calais.
    , @Alden
    Mr. Ripley probably didn't realize that the "Africans" who invaded Spain consisted of Jewish and Berber muslim tribes, not black African tribes.

    The slaves in muslim Spain were White Spanish, specifically; skilled crafts and trades men and 10 to 14 year old girls. They were sold to the Muslims across the mediterreanean. They also stayed in Spain and worked for their muslim owners.

    Moor means Moroccan, not a black African There are probably a lot more founding stock White southerners who have a touch of the tarbrush, 5 or 10 percent black DNA than Spanish.

    Guess Mr. Ripley didn't know that the black african negro africans live south of the sahara and the caucasian africans live north of the sahara. Although the caucasian africans made the great mistake of bringing black negro africans to their lands just as the English who settled America did.

    Did Ripley every go to Spain? Or did he think that every black haired person in the world is part black?

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  • The first question I would ask: what are the politics of those hwo propose independence for Catalunya? Are they Marxists? Are they Anarchists? Are they just plain old nationalists? I would say that the heavy handed actions of the Spanish police left a bad taste in the mouths of most people, but that bad taste does not transfers into automatic support for independence. Spain today is not the Spain of Francisco Franco. Culturally, the Catalans can condut their affairs in their own language, as can the Basques and others. A breakup of Spain into mini-states would allow an even more overreaching EU to dominate the affairs of the individual nations even more so. United the Spaniards can at least say no to the EU, broken up they haven’t a chance. I said the same thing about Scottish independence.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    Too much belief in liberal propaganda. Francisco Franco successfully fought and got rid of the Soviet Union communists who arrived in Spain 1934, killed all the socialists of the socialist government and went on the same kind of killing spree the communists did when they took over Russia. Can't defeat communists by being nice.

    Franco and his soldiers kicked the communist Russians out of Spain and killed a lot of them in the process. He is a great hero

    Do you realize that before 1990, only 2 countries, Finland and Spain resisted and kicked the genocidal soviets out of their countries?

    Stop reading liberal propaganda.


    Other than the misconception about General Franco, your comment is the best I have read on the subject anywhere? United with Spain Catalonia can resist the EU. Standing alone they won't be able too unless they go back to medieval times when independent Catalonia was a major power in S. Europe.

    I just googled WHY Catalonian independence and got nothing about why and what they hope to achieve
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  • @Alfred
    The story that the WWI is the direct result of the assassination of the Austrian Archduke is an example of Fake News at its best.

    In reality, the English planned to take down Germany long before WWI. The Entente Cordiale with France had secret clauses that neither the British parliament nor most of the Cabinet knew anything about.

    Winston Churchill switched from Conservatives to Liberals in order to get the Liberals to start the war. As First Lord of the Admirality, he agreed with the French that their fleet should stay in the Mediterranean and the Royal Navy would defend their Atlantic coast.

    The British public were in favour of the Prussians and against the Russians and French. All of that was changed in a concerted propaganda campaign that went on for more than 10 years.

    Belgium was not a neutral country - the main pretext for getting the UK into the war - as it planned with the British the details of how a large British expeditionary force should deploy into Belgium to fight the Germans - long before 1914.

    Lastly, Germany was the last country to mobilise. So much for "German Aggression".

    Absolutely.
    That half-witted cousin of the brilliant Wilhelm II, George V, came back from a visit to Germany in 1913 and feverishly harangued the Prime Minister to the effect that an excuse for war needed to be found, and found quickly. Otherwise, he thought, the industrious and intelligent Germans would soon replace the British Empire with their own.
    The tragic assassination of the very promising Franz Ferdinand was not a cause of the war, but merely a timely excuse.

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    He was not at all half witted, Balfour already in 1907 said to the USA ambassador 'that war was maybe the cheapest way to to keep the British standard of living'.
    , @Alden
    I've read that the level of state public education was so low in 1900 Britain that business had to import very ordinary clerks and office boys from Germany and France because they could read, write legibly and do basic book keeping. Allegedly the standard British kid who had to leave school after 6th grade didn't have these skills which the German, French, Dutch, Belgium 12 and 13 year olds had I don't know if it's true and can't remember where I read it.
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  • Catalonia, in the southeastern corner of Spain, is in the news.[Catalonia Government Declares Overwhelming Vote for Independence, by Raphael Minder, NYT, Oct 6, 2017] I was there once, back in my salad days, on my way to a camping vacation down the coast at a sleepy little whitewashed village named Oropesa del Mar, now all...
  • @Corvinus
    The joke is on you. There are universal and eternal principles regardless of the society one lives in.

    "In fact, most of Hebraic theology that Jesus uses as preface to the new millennium is stolen from Zoroastrianism and re-cast as a Hebraic reformation."

    Stolen? No, perhaps borrowed or influenced. But even religious scholars today debate the impact of Zoroastrianism on Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.

    "Specifically, no, the statement that “all moral standards are relative” is NOT a proposition of an absolute moral standard."

    Of course it is. The premise is clear in that EVERYONE OUGHT to realize that any and all moral standards are relative. That is, a person who insists that a moral standard is absolute is TOTALLY WRONG.

    "Looking over the rest of your nonsense … good lord, why would I bother? Good-bye."

    Exactly what I thought. Run, run away.

    Of course it is. The premise is clear in that EVERYONE OUGHT to realize that any and all moral standards are relative. That is, a person who insists that a moral standard is absolute is TOTALLY WRONG.

    If this is indeed true, then, by your own admission, human slavery was not always necessarily immoral to individuals who practiced it. An admission which when considered in light of earlier adamant positions taken on human slavery, comes as somewhat of a surprise.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "If this is indeed true, then, by your own admission, human slavery was not always necessarily immoral to individuals who practiced it."

    Of course those who engaged in slavery personally believed it was other than immoral. Why wouldn't they since they are in control of matters? But, since you seemingly are a fan of slavery, why don't you sell yourself, your wife, and your children into this wonderful institution. It's everything you hoped it will be and more.
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  • In recent months, especially with the accession to the presidency of Donald Trump, there has been renewed talk, serious talk, ironic talk, about secession—particularly, from zealously Leftist anti-Trump militants in California and along the Pacific Rim areas of the United States. Advocates of what is called “Cal-exit” make their case that California, specifically, is not...
  • @Hans Vogel
    Before Yugoslavia was intentionally destroyed in the early 1990s by an unholy alliance of the Vatican, Germany and the US (and NATO), the overwhelming majority spoke "Serbo-Croat," which like every well-developed European language also had a number of dialects. But it was all basically one single language. Then you had the Slovenes, and speakers of Macedonian, a Bulgarian dielact. The picture was completed by minorities of Germans, Hungarians, speakers of Albanian and tiny minorities of people who spoke Italian and Walach (a dialect of Romanian, in Istria).

    Present-day linguistic differences between the Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks may be greater (but still largely superficial) now than 25 years ago, but these differences are largely the result of political decisions. What's more, most speakers of Serbo-Croat can also understand Bulgarian and Slovene. And, given the close relationships among Slav languages, they can also roughly understand Polish, Russian, Czech, Slovak, Ukrainian, and White Russian. In general the mutual understandibility between speakers of Slav languages is far greater than among speakers of Romance or Germanic languages.

    Present-day linguistic differences between the Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks may be greater (but still largely superficial) now than 25 years ago,

    I was told by my friends from Balkans, that Croat speaking shtokavian would not understand Croat speaking some Kajkavian dialect, and Kajkavian dialects are actually closer to Slovenian. Not sure about cakavian dialects. Similarly, Serb speaking one of the shtokavian dialects supposedly would have difficulty speaking to Serb speaking some dialect from south, even if that dialect would also be classified as shtokavian.

    At the same time, shtokavian speaking Croat would understand shtokavian speaking Serb without any problems.

    given the close relationships among Slav languages, they can also roughly understand Polish, Russian, Czech, Slovak, Ukrainian, and White Russian.

    I am Polish. I guarantee that while I can roughly understand northern Slavic languages, with southern languages I have problems; I understand a word here and there, sometimes a full sentence or three sentences in a row, sometimes a general meaning, and usually I understand “oh, this is a verb in second person plural”, but that’s it. It’s worse with Bulgarian and Macedonian.

    Also, it helps that I know a lot of archaic words, I know some basic concepts from linguistics, plus I had a lot of Slavic friends from other countries. At one point in my life I think I could even call myself panslavist.

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