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    Warnings about the damaging impact on the Northern Ireland peace process of the return to a physical border between the north and the south post-Brexit understate the danger. Those issuing these warnings point to the problems posed by a hard border to relations between nationalist and unionist communities, to power sharing between Sinn Fein and...
  • @The Alarmist
    The problem with the Northern Ireland question, like the Ireland question before it, is that it is largely being run by the English. Best way foward is for Westminster to cut NI loose and let the Irish on both sides of the border figure it out for themselves.

    16. The Alarmist says:

    The problem with the Northern Ireland question, like the Ireland question before it, is that it is largely being run by the English. Best way foward is for Westminster to cut NI loose and let the Irish on both sides of the border figure it out for themselves.

    20. The Alarmist says:

    … just saying the English should get the hell out of Ireland once and for all.

    May I offer an alternative view of Britain’s Ireland question?

    English politicians would have liked to be rid of the problem of Ireland by “getting the hell out” in the early 20th Century; but it was politically impossible.

    1. The province of Ulster, which we came to know as Northern Ireland, was dominated by settlers (largely Scottish protestants) whose Ulster ancestry dated back centuries. They were known as the Loyalists precisely because they identified themselves as loyal British citizens of a British nation under a British monarch. Inevitably, a British government was obliged to represent and defend the Loyalists’ interests.

    In the remainder of the island of Ireland the (mainly Roman Catholic) majority wanted Ulster to be forced into a “united Ireland” in the form of an anti-monarchical Irish Republic. These two Irish political aims were incompatible. The British knew that both sides would resort to violence in order to achieve their ends and that the mayhem would spill over into other parts of the British Isles. The British could therefore give way in the 1920s to the demand for an independent Irish Republic but not to a “United Ireland”, because that would involve trying to force Ulster into a republic which it would fight to resist. (Another powerful reason for Protestant resistance was that Protestant minority status in a majority Catholic state would in their perception be “Rome rule”.)

    It is often overlooked that the “troubles” which caused so much disruption to British life after 1968 happened because a Labour Party government realised that it had to send British troops into Northern Ireland, in order to protect the Catholic population from terrorist attacks from Protestant-aligned groups. Along with this they had to impose a temporary “direct rule” from London. Ironically, this allowed the Catholic-aligned IRA gunmen to exploit the situation with their own “armed struggle” against the British. Not surprisingly they found it useful to present the solution of the Irish problem as one of persuading the British to “get the hell out”. For all I know, the sioux, the mohawks, the apaches, et al probably wished they could apply a similar solution to their problem with colonists.

    2. For the reasons discussed in 1. above, British governments were obliged to depend upon the votes of the Northern Irish in order to elect MPs who would support the government in the British parliament. This benefited the Tory party because most Northern Irish MPs were Loyalist.

    It may be that the “Best way foward is for Westminster to cut NI loose and let the Irish on both sides of the border figure it out for themselves”. Is that politically possible in the current Brexit climate, given that it would surely revive the old confict between supporters and opponents of a republican United Ireland?

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  • @Thoughtdeviant
    As an Irish person I don't see much need for concern. You have to remember Irish people lived effectively under occupation for centuries. The resulting effect on Irish culture cannot be underestimated. Mainly, it has resulted in extremely effective group adhesion and very little tolerance for 'turncoats'. Irish people are far crueler than the average 'nice American' and almost obsessively tribal to the extent that people from different parts of the country are wary of other Irish people not from their area. Non Irish are tolerated but that is all, they will never be Irish.

    A bit like the Japanese the situation could very quickly spiral into a nationalistic bloodbath if not managed carefully. One look at Northern Ireland is all you need to know.

    Non Irish are tolerated but that is all, they will never be Irish.

    Excuse me if I tell you straight that this is completely false, check out your head state for a start. Ireland is not at deaths doors, its already dead, it is hard left, hard anti white and demographically (mass non white immigration and miscegenation) it is already like France, Britain, Germany, England – dead.

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  • Like others have already mentioned here, Ireland (both parts) is rapidly becoming non white. How the author here can ignore this fact is incredible, nobody can seriously argue that the new third world population will care or even be aware of the old conflicts that once happened in that region. I don’t think that people like Patrick Cockburn are ignorant of these facts, they most definitely are and they generally support these things, so the question I have is what the reason for him writing such nonsense, who exactly is his target audience here, is there anyone in the world who reads this kind of stuff who thinks this is still relevant?

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  • TPTB want to instigate another White fratricide. Foster division among Whites who otherwise might deal with the multi-culti invasion

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  • I’ve never really understood this argument that having to have a proper border with customs between Northern Ireland and the Republic is going to re-ignite the Troubles all by itself. It wasn’t the presence of customs that caused the rise of the Provos in the late 60s; it was Catholic protestors being shot at by the people supposedly protecting them. No, this argument just sounds like more Brexiteer-bashing.

    [The SDLP's] condemnation may have been sincere, but that did not mean that they did not benefit politically from the actions of the IRA.

    For a time, maybe. But their total repudiation of the Provos ultimately paved the way for the rise of Sinn Fein, who have now largely displaced the SDLP.

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  • @jack ryan
    The idealized view of Ireland presented in John Ford, John Wayne's "The Quiet Man" - that place no longer exists, same as the idealized all English world of England during the Blitz in World War II "hope and Glory".

    Both England and Ireland have gone to Hell - Ireland votes for homosexual marriage equality, London has a Pakistani Muslim mayor and Muslim sexual grooming gangs get away with mass rape of poor English girls and I bet more than a few poor Irish girls. I was engaged to a working class Irish English girl outside of Manchester England.

    The cursed, Lib Leftists, hate White people "powers that be" are always trying to peal away the Irish and Irish Americans as another oppressed minority that must fight against (WASP, Anglo) White privilege.

    I noted that the Irish American mayor of Boston was practically the only heterosexual White guy allowed to speak as the Democrat National Convention.

    M'thinks Mel Gibson was to get back in good graces with the Hollywood (Jewish Media Mafia) by going back to producing hate English people movies like Braveheart and the Patriot and as long as he stays sober, M'thinks the Hollywood Media Mafia will let him back in.

    And these problems will be further compounded by Prince Harry’s impending marriage to the negress Markle.

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  • @Rich
    I believe you're incorrect. The Plantation of Ulster is an historical fact. An argument can be made that, genetically, the Northern Irish and Scots were the same people, but to claim that the Irish Catholics in the region weren't forced off their lands, after backing the Catholic king, is historically inaccurate.

    Yes, Rich, you are correct –I had to go back and research more, and it turned out that I had misunderstood a source.

    It seems there was a long history of violent land grab, taking place over centuries — beginning with the Norman invasion in the 12th Century and lasting into the 17th Century with the ‘plantations’ phenomena that extended from the Tudor and into the Stuart dynasty and included even Cromwell’s republic.

    I still think that there’s been two Irelands going all the way back to St. Patrick’s day. The Wikipedia article on Ulster –

    Historically, Ulster lay at the heart of the Gaelic world made up of Gaelic Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man. … By the late 14th century … Ulster became the most thoroughly Gaelic and independent of Ireland’s provinces. Its rulers resisted English encroachment but were defeated in the Nine Years’ War (1594–1603). King James I then colonized Ulster with English-speaking Protestant settlers from Britain, in the Plantation of Ulster.– Wikipedia

    So, I suggest that the argument about the Northern Irish and the Scots being genetically the same people can be extended to that they were or are historically the same people.

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  • @jack ryan
    The idealized view of Ireland presented in John Ford, John Wayne's "The Quiet Man" - that place no longer exists, same as the idealized all English world of England during the Blitz in World War II "hope and Glory".

    Both England and Ireland have gone to Hell - Ireland votes for homosexual marriage equality, London has a Pakistani Muslim mayor and Muslim sexual grooming gangs get away with mass rape of poor English girls and I bet more than a few poor Irish girls. I was engaged to a working class Irish English girl outside of Manchester England.

    The cursed, Lib Leftists, hate White people "powers that be" are always trying to peal away the Irish and Irish Americans as another oppressed minority that must fight against (WASP, Anglo) White privilege.

    I noted that the Irish American mayor of Boston was practically the only heterosexual White guy allowed to speak as the Democrat National Convention.

    M'thinks Mel Gibson was to get back in good graces with the Hollywood (Jewish Media Mafia) by going back to producing hate English people movies like Braveheart and the Patriot and as long as he stays sober, M'thinks the Hollywood Media Mafia will let him back in.

    As far as the Irish conflict goes, one has to wonder if Unionists and Republicans alike see the disintegration of European culture in the West and say, “Hmm…maybe now isn’t the time to start things back up again.” The Troubles were really about culture as much as anything.

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  • @Johann
    I too spent time in Northern Ireland in the 1970s and saw a lot of what was going on and yes tribal/religious war is brutal. The irony of the situation was that the British sent the army into Northern Ireland in order to protect the Catholics who were being set upon by Protestant mobs because the Catholics were demonstrating for their civil rights. As the fighting intensified the Catholics under the leadership of the once dormant IRA began to attack the British army. My parents were Catholic emigrants of Northern Ireland so I often stayed with my relatives there and experienced first hand the roadblocks, searches, and even heard the explosions from my uncles house in Belfast. I knew enough of Irish history to realize that this a continuation of the dynastic wars of English succession. The Catholic Stuarts made their last stand in Northern Ireland at the Battle of the Boyne. The English Protestants wanted to insure the safety of William of Orange so they imported the fanatical Protestants of Scotland and gave them the land and farms of the Irish Catholics so was the beginning of the Orangemen, the protectors of English Protestantism. However today in Northern Ireland and more so in the Irish Republic there is very little religious fervor among both Catholics and Protestants. There really wasn’t much during the 1970s the leader of the IRA Gerry Adams isa staunch Marxist fresh from the British university system; he now lives in Dublin and represents Sinn Fein in the Irish parliament. He now leads the gay rights group in Dublin and is pushing for abortion on demand. So the truth is that the difference between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland has nothing to do with religious beliefs. Northern Ireland youth both Catholic and Protestant are now totally Americanized and avoid church as much as possible. I know that my among myNorth Ireland family fewer and fewer attend mass and the Protestants are not doing any better. It is mostly all about money just as it is in the Empire. Politicians in the North could collect salaries from the EU, UK Parliament at the same time. Northern Ireland politicians also are well treated by the Clinton Foundation. Before EU Ireland was poor but the Irish owned their own country now days Ireland is owned by the international banks and the American deep state.

    The idealized view of Ireland presented in John Ford, John Wayne’s “The Quiet Man” – that place no longer exists, same as the idealized all English world of England during the Blitz in World War II “hope and Glory”.

    Both England and Ireland have gone to Hell – Ireland votes for homosexual marriage equality, London has a Pakistani Muslim mayor and Muslim sexual grooming gangs get away with mass rape of poor English girls and I bet more than a few poor Irish girls. I was engaged to a working class Irish English girl outside of Manchester England.

    The cursed, Lib Leftists, hate White people “powers that be” are always trying to peal away the Irish and Irish Americans as another oppressed minority that must fight against (WASP, Anglo) White privilege.

    I noted that the Irish American mayor of Boston was practically the only heterosexual White guy allowed to speak as the Democrat National Convention.

    M’thinks Mel Gibson was to get back in good graces with the Hollywood (Jewish Media Mafia) by going back to producing hate English people movies like Braveheart and the Patriot and as long as he stays sober, M’thinks the Hollywood Media Mafia will let him back in.

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    • Replies: @J1234
    As far as the Irish conflict goes, one has to wonder if Unionists and Republicans alike see the disintegration of European culture in the West and say, "Hmm...maybe now isn't the time to start things back up again." The Troubles were really about culture as much as anything.
    , @attilathehen
    And these problems will be further compounded by Prince Harry's impending marriage to the negress Markle.
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  • @Fredrik
    Sure, but if they do then Corbyn will become prime minister.

    It would be interesting to see if he could do more damage than the current crew. Actually, I suspect gridlock would take hold, much like in Germany.

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  • @The Alarmist
    Not disagreeing with you ... just saying the English should get the hell out of Ireland once and for all.

    If a new wall goes up from the Baltic to the adriatic, it won't be to keep the East Europeans in, rather to protect themselves from what's left of Western Europe.

    Sure, but if they do then Corbyn will become prime minister.

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    It would be interesting to see if he could do more damage than the current crew. Actually, I suspect gridlock would take hold, much like in Germany.
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  • @Rurik (from another location)

    Northern Ireland question, like the Ireland question before it, is that it is largely being run by the English.
     
    with all due respect.. that is bullshit

    England is not even run by the English, or their school girls wouldn't be beaten, desecrated and raped by Pakistani rape gangs with impunity and protection from the authorities.

    The reason the length and breath of the Western world is being demographically and culturally murdered by their own governments is because Jewish bankers (with a congenital antipathy for the West) are calling the shots in these corrupt Western governments. Duh

    And demanding that they destroy their own nations (al la Tony Blair) and genocide their own people so that 'Never Again!' can a Western governmnet raise it's hand to the International Jewish banking cartels that run the dying (murdered) Western world - as one of those nations did in the last century. Once all Western nations are shitholes of diversity and multiculturalism, then the Jewish domination of the Western world will be immutable, and the fate of Western civilization (including of course Ireland) and it's people will finally know what it's like to be a Ukrainian Kulak or a modern Palestinian Arab or a British father trying desperatly to save his 13 year old daughter from a Muslim rape gang, only to be told if he continues with his racism, he'll be summarily arrested as a hate criminal.

    Most of the British common men and women are just as appalled at the genocide and depravity of their ancient culture as the common men and women of Ireland (and N. America and Europe and Sweden, etc...) are.

    The elites that are destroying the Western world with immigration are serving International Zionism, which means a racially pure Jewish state in Israel, and a demographic shit hole for all the rest of you.

    Not disagreeing with you … just saying the English should get the hell out of Ireland once and for all.

    If a new wall goes up from the Baltic to the adriatic, it won’t be to keep the East Europeans in, rather to protect themselves from what’s left of Western Europe.

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    • Replies: @Fredrik
    Sure, but if they do then Corbyn will become prime minister.
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  • @Grandpa Charlie

    "The English Protestants wanted to insure the safety of William of Orange so they imported the fanatical Protestants of Scotland and gave them the land and farms of the Irish Catholics so was the beginning of the Orangemen, the protectors of English Protestantism." -- Johann
     
    This sounds like the American Catholic Irish myth that the protestants of Northern Ireland were all "new-comers" -- somehow less than Irish -- and were involved in the plantations phenomenon. That myth was/is nothing but prejudice that to be truly Irish, you must be RC. In fact, not a one of the plantations was located in the North. They were all in the South. And it's doubtful that the plantations were mainly settled by "fanatical" Scots.

    Protestants in the North are just as deeply rooted 'Irish' as are any of the Irish in the South, although the Irish in the North have always been closer to the Scots than to the southern Irish. That goes back, beyond the Battle of the Boyne or the plantations, to the fact that there have always been two Irelands, at least for humans. How else would you explain that when St. Patrick was posted to Ireland, there was already Palladius sitting near Dublin, in County Meath and known (even in Rome) as 'Bishop of Ireland'?

    It's geography, you see. If you go to the eastern coast in Northern Ireland, you can clearly see Scotland. Whereas you don't see England or Wales from the coastlands of the Irish Sea in the South. Back then, bodies of water were the primary 'roads'. Thus it would be easy to envision and to make a voyage from Scotland to County Down, but if you wanted to get to, say, Dublin from Liverpool, back in that day when they much preferred sailing within sight of land, you would probably go by way of the Isle of Man. Two very different routes. And, therefore, two very different destinations, historically speaking or thinking.

    As for the Order of Orange, or the Scottish Rite, that is beyond the scope of this comment -- except to say that there were (and are) certainly some Presbyterian clergy who abjure(d) both.

    I believe you’re incorrect. The Plantation of Ulster is an historical fact. An argument can be made that, genetically, the Northern Irish and Scots were the same people, but to claim that the Irish Catholics in the region weren’t forced off their lands, after backing the Catholic king, is historically inaccurate.

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    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @Grandpa Charlie
    Yes, Rich, you are correct --I had to go back and research more, and it turned out that I had misunderstood a source.

    It seems there was a long history of violent land grab, taking place over centuries -- beginning with the Norman invasion in the 12th Century and lasting into the 17th Century with the 'plantations' phenomena that extended from the Tudor and into the Stuart dynasty and included even Cromwell's republic.

    I still think that there's been two Irelands going all the way back to St. Patrick's day. The Wikipedia article on Ulster --

    Historically, Ulster lay at the heart of the Gaelic world made up of Gaelic Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man. ... By the late 14th century ... Ulster became the most thoroughly Gaelic and independent of Ireland's provinces. Its rulers resisted English encroachment but were defeated in the Nine Years' War (1594–1603). King James I then colonized Ulster with English-speaking Protestant settlers from Britain, in the Plantation of Ulster.-- Wikipedia
     
    So, I suggest that the argument about the Northern Irish and the Scots being genetically the same people can be extended to that they were or are historically the same people.
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  • @Rurik (from another location)

    Northern Ireland question, like the Ireland question before it, is that it is largely being run by the English.
     
    with all due respect.. that is bullshit

    England is not even run by the English, or their school girls wouldn't be beaten, desecrated and raped by Pakistani rape gangs with impunity and protection from the authorities.

    The reason the length and breath of the Western world is being demographically and culturally murdered by their own governments is because Jewish bankers (with a congenital antipathy for the West) are calling the shots in these corrupt Western governments. Duh

    And demanding that they destroy their own nations (al la Tony Blair) and genocide their own people so that 'Never Again!' can a Western governmnet raise it's hand to the International Jewish banking cartels that run the dying (murdered) Western world - as one of those nations did in the last century. Once all Western nations are shitholes of diversity and multiculturalism, then the Jewish domination of the Western world will be immutable, and the fate of Western civilization (including of course Ireland) and it's people will finally know what it's like to be a Ukrainian Kulak or a modern Palestinian Arab or a British father trying desperatly to save his 13 year old daughter from a Muslim rape gang, only to be told if he continues with his racism, he'll be summarily arrested as a hate criminal.

    Most of the British common men and women are just as appalled at the genocide and depravity of their ancient culture as the common men and women of Ireland (and N. America and Europe and Sweden, etc...) are.

    The elites that are destroying the Western world with immigration are serving International Zionism, which means a racially pure Jewish state in Israel, and a demographic shit hole for all the rest of you.

    BTW, if I had written that simple and obvious truth from a computer in Canada (or half of Europe), there’d no doubt be a knock on the door with uniformed goons standing ready to haul me away for thought crimes.

    And it wouldn’t be because the English people were asserting themselves over my free speach rights, but rather that ubiquitous and nefarious force in the world that demands we all celebrate diveristy (the genocide of our ancient peoples), multiculturalism (the depraving of our ancient culture and heritage) and homosexual radicalism (the solution to those remaining Irish men once the immigrants have fully asserted themselves over your lands).

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  • @The Alarmist
    The problem with the Northern Ireland question, like the Ireland question before it, is that it is largely being run by the English. Best way foward is for Westminster to cut NI loose and let the Irish on both sides of the border figure it out for themselves.

    Northern Ireland question, like the Ireland question before it, is that it is largely being run by the English.

    with all due respect.. that is bullshit

    England is not even run by the English, or their school girls wouldn’t be beaten, desecrated and raped by Pakistani rape gangs with impunity and protection from the authorities.

    The reason the length and breath of the Western world is being demographically and culturally murdered by their own governments is because Jewish bankers (with a congenital antipathy for the West) are calling the shots in these corrupt Western governments. Duh

    And demanding that they destroy their own nations (al la Tony Blair) and genocide their own people so that ‘Never Again!’ can a Western governmnet raise it’s hand to the International Jewish banking cartels that run the dying (murdered) Western world – as one of those nations did in the last century. Once all Western nations are shitholes of diversity and multiculturalism, then the Jewish domination of the Western world will be immutable, and the fate of Western civilization (including of course Ireland) and it’s people will finally know what it’s like to be a Ukrainian Kulak or a modern Palestinian Arab or a British father trying desperatly to save his 13 year old daughter from a Muslim rape gang, only to be told if he continues with his racism, he’ll be summarily arrested as a hate criminal.

    Most of the British common men and women are just as appalled at the genocide and depravity of their ancient culture as the common men and women of Ireland (and N. America and Europe and Sweden, etc…) are.

    The elites that are destroying the Western world with immigration are serving International Zionism, which means a racially pure Jewish state in Israel, and a demographic shit hole for all the rest of you.

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    • Agree: Grandpa Charlie
    • Replies: @Rurik (from another location)
    BTW, if I had written that simple and obvious truth from a computer in Canada (or half of Europe), there'd no doubt be a knock on the door with uniformed goons standing ready to haul me away for thought crimes.

    And it wouldn't be because the English people were asserting themselves over my free speach rights, but rather that ubiquitous and nefarious force in the world that demands we all celebrate diveristy (the genocide of our ancient peoples), multiculturalism (the depraving of our ancient culture and heritage) and homosexual radicalism (the solution to those remaining Irish men once the immigrants have fully asserted themselves over your lands).

    http://user.photos.s3.amazonaws.com/user_134507.jpg

    , @The Alarmist
    Not disagreeing with you ... just saying the English should get the hell out of Ireland once and for all.

    If a new wall goes up from the Baltic to the adriatic, it won't be to keep the East Europeans in, rather to protect themselves from what's left of Western Europe.

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  • The problem with the Northern Ireland question, like the Ireland question before it, is that it is largely being run by the English. Best way foward is for Westminster to cut NI loose and let the Irish on both sides of the border figure it out for themselves.

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    • Replies: @Rurik (from another location)

    Northern Ireland question, like the Ireland question before it, is that it is largely being run by the English.
     
    with all due respect.. that is bullshit

    England is not even run by the English, or their school girls wouldn't be beaten, desecrated and raped by Pakistani rape gangs with impunity and protection from the authorities.

    The reason the length and breath of the Western world is being demographically and culturally murdered by their own governments is because Jewish bankers (with a congenital antipathy for the West) are calling the shots in these corrupt Western governments. Duh

    And demanding that they destroy their own nations (al la Tony Blair) and genocide their own people so that 'Never Again!' can a Western governmnet raise it's hand to the International Jewish banking cartels that run the dying (murdered) Western world - as one of those nations did in the last century. Once all Western nations are shitholes of diversity and multiculturalism, then the Jewish domination of the Western world will be immutable, and the fate of Western civilization (including of course Ireland) and it's people will finally know what it's like to be a Ukrainian Kulak or a modern Palestinian Arab or a British father trying desperatly to save his 13 year old daughter from a Muslim rape gang, only to be told if he continues with his racism, he'll be summarily arrested as a hate criminal.

    Most of the British common men and women are just as appalled at the genocide and depravity of their ancient culture as the common men and women of Ireland (and N. America and Europe and Sweden, etc...) are.

    The elites that are destroying the Western world with immigration are serving International Zionism, which means a racially pure Jewish state in Israel, and a demographic shit hole for all the rest of you.

    , @englishmike

    16. The Alarmist says:

    The problem with the Northern Ireland question, like the Ireland question before it, is that it is largely being run by the English. Best way foward is for Westminster to cut NI loose and let the Irish on both sides of the border figure it out for themselves.

    20. The Alarmist says:

    … just saying the English should get the hell out of Ireland once and for all.

     

    May I offer an alternative view of Britain's Ireland question?

    English politicians would have liked to be rid of the problem of Ireland by "getting the hell out" in the early 20th Century; but it was politically impossible.

    1. The province of Ulster, which we came to know as Northern Ireland, was dominated by settlers (largely Scottish protestants) whose Ulster ancestry dated back centuries. They were known as the Loyalists precisely because they identified themselves as loyal British citizens of a British nation under a British monarch. Inevitably, a British government was obliged to represent and defend the Loyalists' interests.

    In the remainder of the island of Ireland the (mainly Roman Catholic) majority wanted Ulster to be forced into a "united Ireland" in the form of an anti-monarchical Irish Republic. These two Irish political aims were incompatible. The British knew that both sides would resort to violence in order to achieve their ends and that the mayhem would spill over into other parts of the British Isles. The British could therefore give way in the 1920s to the demand for an independent Irish Republic but not to a "United Ireland", because that would involve trying to force Ulster into a republic which it would fight to resist. (Another powerful reason for Protestant resistance was that Protestant minority status in a majority Catholic state would in their perception be "Rome rule".)

    It is often overlooked that the "troubles" which caused so much disruption to British life after 1968 happened because a Labour Party government realised that it had to send British troops into Northern Ireland, in order to protect the Catholic population from terrorist attacks from Protestant-aligned groups. Along with this they had to impose a temporary "direct rule" from London. Ironically, this allowed the Catholic-aligned IRA gunmen to exploit the situation with their own "armed struggle" against the British. Not surprisingly they found it useful to present the solution of the Irish problem as one of persuading the British to "get the hell out". For all I know, the sioux, the mohawks, the apaches, et al probably wished they could apply a similar solution to their problem with colonists.

    2. For the reasons discussed in 1. above, British governments were obliged to depend upon the votes of the Northern Irish in order to elect MPs who would support the government in the British parliament. This benefited the Tory party because most Northern Irish MPs were Loyalist.

    It may be that the "Best way foward is for Westminster to cut NI loose and let the Irish on both sides of the border figure it out for themselves". Is that politically possible in the current Brexit climate, given that it would surely revive the old confict between supporters and opponents of a republican United Ireland?
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  • @Anonym
    In an Ireland of increasing non-Irish and non-white immigration, the Troubles are of waning relevance.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland

    At the moment, the largest figure given for the non-Irish is 18%, and that's likely grown since then. The non-white percentage is already 8%. Reading this article, I'm reminded of the concept (probably done in movies or books) where the major powers cease conflict and assist each other to repel aliens in the event of an alien invasion. Reagan actually asked Gorbachev if they would do this - they both agreed.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/reagan-and-gorbachev-agreed-pause-cold-war-case-alien-invasion-180957402/

    This article makes me consider what might happen if those leaders had "modern" PC attitudes, reminiscent of the supposed attitudes of the Irish. "So Mr Gorbachev, what would you do if the United States were suddenly attacked by someone from outer space? Would you help us?"

    'Well Mr Reagan, what do you mean by "attacked"? Are they armed? Are you sure these aliens are not just undocumented Americans? Do they not have some moderates among them who would make great Americans? I would hate to aid and abet speciesism, Mr Reagan. No, I would maintain a close watch on the tanks and missiles in Europe, lest the war between us goes hot. In fact, we see the so-called alien 'invasion' as a great help to our aging population. Economists all agree that the aliens will make great future Russians and help our GDP immensely. But Mr Reagan, we will be watching very closely your maneuvering and war games on our borders, that I can assure you."

    If "the first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers", I would add to that the economists.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-migration-to-ireland-should-be-encouraged-1.3157810?mode=amp

    I’m reminded of the concept (probably done in movies or books) where the major powers cease conflict and assist each other to repel aliens in the event of an alien invasion. Reagan actually asked Gorbachev if they would do this – they both agreed.

    Gorbachev was a fool, of course. The right answer would be to make any assistance conditional.
    If the aliens are good socialists, why fight them?

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  • @Johann
    I too spent time in Northern Ireland in the 1970s and saw a lot of what was going on and yes tribal/religious war is brutal. The irony of the situation was that the British sent the army into Northern Ireland in order to protect the Catholics who were being set upon by Protestant mobs because the Catholics were demonstrating for their civil rights. As the fighting intensified the Catholics under the leadership of the once dormant IRA began to attack the British army. My parents were Catholic emigrants of Northern Ireland so I often stayed with my relatives there and experienced first hand the roadblocks, searches, and even heard the explosions from my uncles house in Belfast. I knew enough of Irish history to realize that this a continuation of the dynastic wars of English succession. The Catholic Stuarts made their last stand in Northern Ireland at the Battle of the Boyne. The English Protestants wanted to insure the safety of William of Orange so they imported the fanatical Protestants of Scotland and gave them the land and farms of the Irish Catholics so was the beginning of the Orangemen, the protectors of English Protestantism. However today in Northern Ireland and more so in the Irish Republic there is very little religious fervor among both Catholics and Protestants. There really wasn’t much during the 1970s the leader of the IRA Gerry Adams isa staunch Marxist fresh from the British university system; he now lives in Dublin and represents Sinn Fein in the Irish parliament. He now leads the gay rights group in Dublin and is pushing for abortion on demand. So the truth is that the difference between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland has nothing to do with religious beliefs. Northern Ireland youth both Catholic and Protestant are now totally Americanized and avoid church as much as possible. I know that my among myNorth Ireland family fewer and fewer attend mass and the Protestants are not doing any better. It is mostly all about money just as it is in the Empire. Politicians in the North could collect salaries from the EU, UK Parliament at the same time. Northern Ireland politicians also are well treated by the Clinton Foundation. Before EU Ireland was poor but the Irish owned their own country now days Ireland is owned by the international banks and the American deep state.

    “The English Protestants wanted to insure the safety of William of Orange so they imported the fanatical Protestants of Scotland and gave them the land and farms of the Irish Catholics so was the beginning of the Orangemen, the protectors of English Protestantism.” — Johann

    This sounds like the American Catholic Irish myth that the protestants of Northern Ireland were all “new-comers” — somehow less than Irish — and were involved in the plantations phenomenon. That myth was/is nothing but prejudice that to be truly Irish, you must be RC. In fact, not a one of the plantations was located in the North. They were all in the South. And it’s doubtful that the plantations were mainly settled by “fanatical” Scots.

    Protestants in the North are just as deeply rooted ‘Irish’ as are any of the Irish in the South, although the Irish in the North have always been closer to the Scots than to the southern Irish. That goes back, beyond the Battle of the Boyne or the plantations, to the fact that there have always been two Irelands, at least for humans. How else would you explain that when St. Patrick was posted to Ireland, there was already Palladius sitting near Dublin, in County Meath and known (even in Rome) as ‘Bishop of Ireland’?

    It’s geography, you see. If you go to the eastern coast in Northern Ireland, you can clearly see Scotland. Whereas you don’t see England or Wales from the coastlands of the Irish Sea in the South. Back then, bodies of water were the primary ‘roads’. Thus it would be easy to envision and to make a voyage from Scotland to County Down, but if you wanted to get to, say, Dublin from Liverpool, back in that day when they much preferred sailing within sight of land, you would probably go by way of the Isle of Man. Two very different routes. And, therefore, two very different destinations, historically speaking or thinking.

    As for the Order of Orange, or the Scottish Rite, that is beyond the scope of this comment — except to say that there were (and are) certainly some Presbyterian clergy who abjure(d) both.

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    • Replies: @Rich
    I believe you're incorrect. The Plantation of Ulster is an historical fact. An argument can be made that, genetically, the Northern Irish and Scots were the same people, but to claim that the Irish Catholics in the region weren't forced off their lands, after backing the Catholic king, is historically inaccurate.
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  • @Verymuchalive
    At the moment, the largest figure given for the non-Irish is 18%, and that’s likely grown since then. The non-white percentage is already 8%. Reading this article, I’m reminded of the concept (probably done in movies or books) where the major powers cease conflict and assist each other to repel aliens in the event of an alien invasion. Reagan actually asked Gorbachev if they would do this – they both agreed.

    The above figures you give are for the Republic of Ireland.
    You have hit the nail on the head. Northern Ireland Protestants or Catholics do not want to end up like the Republic is now. So even if the border is reinstated, I see no violent upsurge.
    Socially, the Republic is shot to buggery, and that is without mentioning its half-Indian Taoiseach.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland

    5 years ago, 2% non-white and 4% non- British. It would be higher now. So yes, Northern Ireland has less Poz than the Republic of Ireland.

    And lol.

    https://www.thesun.ie/news/1843737/house-of-lords-member-slammed-for-referring-to-taoiseach-leo-varadkar-as-the-indian/

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Varadkar

    What a joke.

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  • @Lemurmaniac
    It's worth fighting for sovereignty. Cockburn, being a leftist, doesn't believe anything is worth killing and dying for. These papists have lost the will to fight. The British state will crush them if they kick off again.

    Wow this is like a phone call from when the UK was an empire on which the Sun never sets and hadn’t yet emptied the countryside to guarantee balance of forces on the continent.

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    • Agree: Hibernian
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  • @Anonym
    In an Ireland of increasing non-Irish and non-white immigration, the Troubles are of waning relevance.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland

    At the moment, the largest figure given for the non-Irish is 18%, and that's likely grown since then. The non-white percentage is already 8%. Reading this article, I'm reminded of the concept (probably done in movies or books) where the major powers cease conflict and assist each other to repel aliens in the event of an alien invasion. Reagan actually asked Gorbachev if they would do this - they both agreed.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/reagan-and-gorbachev-agreed-pause-cold-war-case-alien-invasion-180957402/

    This article makes me consider what might happen if those leaders had "modern" PC attitudes, reminiscent of the supposed attitudes of the Irish. "So Mr Gorbachev, what would you do if the United States were suddenly attacked by someone from outer space? Would you help us?"

    'Well Mr Reagan, what do you mean by "attacked"? Are they armed? Are you sure these aliens are not just undocumented Americans? Do they not have some moderates among them who would make great Americans? I would hate to aid and abet speciesism, Mr Reagan. No, I would maintain a close watch on the tanks and missiles in Europe, lest the war between us goes hot. In fact, we see the so-called alien 'invasion' as a great help to our aging population. Economists all agree that the aliens will make great future Russians and help our GDP immensely. But Mr Reagan, we will be watching very closely your maneuvering and war games on our borders, that I can assure you."

    If "the first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers", I would add to that the economists.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-migration-to-ireland-should-be-encouraged-1.3157810?mode=amp

    At the moment, the largest figure given for the non-Irish is 18%, and that’s likely grown since then. The non-white percentage is already 8%. Reading this article, I’m reminded of the concept (probably done in movies or books) where the major powers cease conflict and assist each other to repel aliens in the event of an alien invasion. Reagan actually asked Gorbachev if they would do this – they both agreed.

    The above figures you give are for the Republic of Ireland.
    You have hit the nail on the head. Northern Ireland Protestants or Catholics do not want to end up like the Republic is now. So even if the border is reinstated, I see no violent upsurge.
    Socially, the Republic is shot to buggery, and that is without mentioning its half-Indian Taoiseach.

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    • Replies: @Anonym
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland

    5 years ago, 2% non-white and 4% non- British. It would be higher now. So yes, Northern Ireland has less Poz than the Republic of Ireland.

    And lol.

    https://www.thesun.ie/news/1843737/house-of-lords-member-slammed-for-referring-to-taoiseach-leo-varadkar-as-the-indian/

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Varadkar

    What a joke.

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  • Brexit makes Northern Ireland more distinctly British, which is why the DUP supports Britain’s departure from the EU, despite the damage to local economy.

    Just to be clear the DUP has opposed British membership of the EU, and before that when it was called the EEC, since long before the Belfast (‘Good Friday’) Agreement and for that matter the peace process itself. Part of that is about Britishness but part was also about retaining Ulster’s Christian character. It was the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) – technically not the EU though connected – that judged Britain to be in violation of basic freedoms by allowing Northern Ireland an exception to the legalisation of male homosexuality.

    That was in the 80s. Today it is the province’s refusal to accept abortion and gay marriage that is being targeted by outsiders, including Theresa May, though given her predicament she’s not likely to push too hard. The DUP is in step with its voters – imagine such a thing in a democracy! – in that they believe membership of the EU negatively impacts the ability of local people, who are very socially conservative by Western European standards, to control their own future. The border question has always been separate from that. Well, at least that was the case in the past when the Catholics were as socially conservative as the Protestants. Now that Catholic Ireland seems to be fully embracing social liberalism the border/sectarian dispute could be exacerbated.

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  • I too spent time in Northern Ireland in the 1970s and saw a lot of what was going on and yes tribal/religious war is brutal. The irony of the situation was that the British sent the army into Northern Ireland in order to protect the Catholics who were being set upon by Protestant mobs because the Catholics were demonstrating for their civil rights. As the fighting intensified the Catholics under the leadership of the once dormant IRA began to attack the British army. My parents were Catholic emigrants of Northern Ireland so I often stayed with my relatives there and experienced first hand the roadblocks, searches, and even heard the explosions from my uncles house in Belfast. I knew enough of Irish history to realize that this a continuation of the dynastic wars of English succession. The Catholic Stuarts made their last stand in Northern Ireland at the Battle of the Boyne. The English Protestants wanted to insure the safety of William of Orange so they imported the fanatical Protestants of Scotland and gave them the land and farms of the Irish Catholics so was the beginning of the Orangemen, the protectors of English Protestantism. However today in Northern Ireland and more so in the Irish Republic there is very little religious fervor among both Catholics and Protestants. There really wasn’t much during the 1970s the leader of the IRA Gerry Adams isa staunch Marxist fresh from the British university system; he now lives in Dublin and represents Sinn Fein in the Irish parliament. He now leads the gay rights group in Dublin and is pushing for abortion on demand. So the truth is that the difference between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland has nothing to do with religious beliefs. Northern Ireland youth both Catholic and Protestant are now totally Americanized and avoid church as much as possible. I know that my among myNorth Ireland family fewer and fewer attend mass and the Protestants are not doing any better. It is mostly all about money just as it is in the Empire. Politicians in the North could collect salaries from the EU, UK Parliament at the same time. Northern Ireland politicians also are well treated by the Clinton Foundation. Before EU Ireland was poor but the Irish owned their own country now days Ireland is owned by the international banks and the American deep state.

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    • Replies: @Grandpa Charlie

    "The English Protestants wanted to insure the safety of William of Orange so they imported the fanatical Protestants of Scotland and gave them the land and farms of the Irish Catholics so was the beginning of the Orangemen, the protectors of English Protestantism." -- Johann
     
    This sounds like the American Catholic Irish myth that the protestants of Northern Ireland were all "new-comers" -- somehow less than Irish -- and were involved in the plantations phenomenon. That myth was/is nothing but prejudice that to be truly Irish, you must be RC. In fact, not a one of the plantations was located in the North. They were all in the South. And it's doubtful that the plantations were mainly settled by "fanatical" Scots.

    Protestants in the North are just as deeply rooted 'Irish' as are any of the Irish in the South, although the Irish in the North have always been closer to the Scots than to the southern Irish. That goes back, beyond the Battle of the Boyne or the plantations, to the fact that there have always been two Irelands, at least for humans. How else would you explain that when St. Patrick was posted to Ireland, there was already Palladius sitting near Dublin, in County Meath and known (even in Rome) as 'Bishop of Ireland'?

    It's geography, you see. If you go to the eastern coast in Northern Ireland, you can clearly see Scotland. Whereas you don't see England or Wales from the coastlands of the Irish Sea in the South. Back then, bodies of water were the primary 'roads'. Thus it would be easy to envision and to make a voyage from Scotland to County Down, but if you wanted to get to, say, Dublin from Liverpool, back in that day when they much preferred sailing within sight of land, you would probably go by way of the Isle of Man. Two very different routes. And, therefore, two very different destinations, historically speaking or thinking.

    As for the Order of Orange, or the Scottish Rite, that is beyond the scope of this comment -- except to say that there were (and are) certainly some Presbyterian clergy who abjure(d) both.
    , @jack ryan
    The idealized view of Ireland presented in John Ford, John Wayne's "The Quiet Man" - that place no longer exists, same as the idealized all English world of England during the Blitz in World War II "hope and Glory".

    Both England and Ireland have gone to Hell - Ireland votes for homosexual marriage equality, London has a Pakistani Muslim mayor and Muslim sexual grooming gangs get away with mass rape of poor English girls and I bet more than a few poor Irish girls. I was engaged to a working class Irish English girl outside of Manchester England.

    The cursed, Lib Leftists, hate White people "powers that be" are always trying to peal away the Irish and Irish Americans as another oppressed minority that must fight against (WASP, Anglo) White privilege.

    I noted that the Irish American mayor of Boston was practically the only heterosexual White guy allowed to speak as the Democrat National Convention.

    M'thinks Mel Gibson was to get back in good graces with the Hollywood (Jewish Media Mafia) by going back to producing hate English people movies like Braveheart and the Patriot and as long as he stays sober, M'thinks the Hollywood Media Mafia will let him back in.
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  • Sadly the Irish have sold their nation to multiculturalism so the next terrorist threat is much more likely to come from Ahmed or Mohammed than Sean or Ian.

    In Ireland as everywhere else, allowing women to vote has had nation destroying consequences.

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  • War sounds like good news to me. Peace has been hell.

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  • It’s worth fighting for sovereignty. Cockburn, being a leftist, doesn’t believe anything is worth killing and dying for. These papists have lost the will to fight. The British state will crush them if they kick off again.

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    • Replies: @El Dato
    Wow this is like a phone call from when the UK was an empire on which the Sun never sets and hadn't yet emptied the countryside to guarantee balance of forces on the continent.
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  • @Thoughtdeviant
    There will be a customs border. There was one before and it worked effectively. It's the only workable solution.

    The border posts would be an obvious target for “dissident Republicans”. Who would want to work at a remote border crossing, unless it was heavily fortified and its occupants were armed? Unfortunately this would be the kind of “militarisation” that no one wants to bring back.

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  • @James N. Kennett
    I believe that the Irish border is an intractable problem of Brexit, and that it will eventually bring down the negotiations.

    If the UK wishes to remain in the Single Market and Customs Area, the EU will insist on the free movement of people between the UK and EU, which is unacceptable to the UK government.

    So there will be inevitably be tariff barriers between Great Britain and the EU - including the Republic of Ireland. This raises the question of how the barrier will be drawn around Northern Ireland.

    If there is a customs barrier between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, then the border must have barriers and customs posts, or else it will be used by smugglers to subvert the tariff barriers. But customs posts are unacceptable to the EU, the Republic of Ireland, and most people in Northern Ireland.

    On the other hand, a customs barrier between Northern Ireland and Great Britain is unacceptable to the DUP, and therefore to the current UK government.

    In other words, there is no option that is not wholly unacceptable to one party or another in the Brexit negotiations. When the border issue is eventually considered, it is hard to see how it can be solved - unless there is another General Election in the UK and the election of a government that does not depend on DUP support - an outcome that is by no means certain.

    There will be a customs border. There was one before and it worked effectively. It’s the only workable solution.

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    • Replies: @James N. Kennett
    The border posts would be an obvious target for "dissident Republicans". Who would want to work at a remote border crossing, unless it was heavily fortified and its occupants were armed? Unfortunately this would be the kind of "militarisation" that no one wants to bring back.
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  • I believe that the Irish border is an intractable problem of Brexit, and that it will eventually bring down the negotiations.

    If the UK wishes to remain in the Single Market and Customs Area, the EU will insist on the free movement of people between the UK and EU, which is unacceptable to the UK government.

    So there will be inevitably be tariff barriers between Great Britain and the EU – including the Republic of Ireland. This raises the question of how the barrier will be drawn around Northern Ireland.

    If there is a customs barrier between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, then the border must have barriers and customs posts, or else it will be used by smugglers to subvert the tariff barriers. But customs posts are unacceptable to the EU, the Republic of Ireland, and most people in Northern Ireland.

    On the other hand, a customs barrier between Northern Ireland and Great Britain is unacceptable to the DUP, and therefore to the current UK government.

    In other words, there is no option that is not wholly unacceptable to one party or another in the Brexit negotiations. When the border issue is eventually considered, it is hard to see how it can be solved – unless there is another General Election in the UK and the election of a government that does not depend on DUP support – an outcome that is by no means certain.

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    • Replies: @Thoughtdeviant
    There will be a customs border. There was one before and it worked effectively. It's the only workable solution.
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  • As an Irish person I don’t see much need for concern. You have to remember Irish people lived effectively under occupation for centuries. The resulting effect on Irish culture cannot be underestimated. Mainly, it has resulted in extremely effective group adhesion and very little tolerance for ‘turncoats’. Irish people are far crueler than the average ‘nice American’ and almost obsessively tribal to the extent that people from different parts of the country are wary of other Irish people not from their area. Non Irish are tolerated but that is all, they will never be Irish.

    A bit like the Japanese the situation could very quickly spiral into a nationalistic bloodbath if not managed carefully. One look at Northern Ireland is all you need to know.

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    • Replies: @neutral

    Non Irish are tolerated but that is all, they will never be Irish.
     
    Excuse me if I tell you straight that this is completely false, check out your head state for a start. Ireland is not at deaths doors, its already dead, it is hard left, hard anti white and demographically (mass non white immigration and miscegenation) it is already like France, Britain, Germany, England - dead.
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  • In an Ireland of increasing non-Irish and non-white immigration, the Troubles are of waning relevance.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland

    At the moment, the largest figure given for the non-Irish is 18%, and that’s likely grown since then. The non-white percentage is already 8%. Reading this article, I’m reminded of the concept (probably done in movies or books) where the major powers cease conflict and assist each other to repel aliens in the event of an alien invasion. Reagan actually asked Gorbachev if they would do this – they both agreed.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/reagan-and-gorbachev-agreed-pause-cold-war-case-alien-invasion-180957402/

    This article makes me consider what might happen if those leaders had “modern” PC attitudes, reminiscent of the supposed attitudes of the Irish. “So Mr Gorbachev, what would you do if the United States were suddenly attacked by someone from outer space? Would you help us?”

    ‘Well Mr Reagan, what do you mean by “attacked”? Are they armed? Are you sure these aliens are not just undocumented Americans? Do they not have some moderates among them who would make great Americans? I would hate to aid and abet speciesism, Mr Reagan. No, I would maintain a close watch on the tanks and missiles in Europe, lest the war between us goes hot. In fact, we see the so-called alien ‘invasion’ as a great help to our aging population. Economists all agree that the aliens will make great future Russians and help our GDP immensely. But Mr Reagan, we will be watching very closely your maneuvering and war games on our borders, that I can assure you.”

    If “the first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers”, I would add to that the economists.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-migration-to-ireland-should-be-encouraged-1.3157810?mode=amp

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    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    At the moment, the largest figure given for the non-Irish is 18%, and that’s likely grown since then. The non-white percentage is already 8%. Reading this article, I’m reminded of the concept (probably done in movies or books) where the major powers cease conflict and assist each other to repel aliens in the event of an alien invasion. Reagan actually asked Gorbachev if they would do this – they both agreed.

    The above figures you give are for the Republic of Ireland.
    You have hit the nail on the head. Northern Ireland Protestants or Catholics do not want to end up like the Republic is now. So even if the border is reinstated, I see no violent upsurge.
    Socially, the Republic is shot to buggery, and that is without mentioning its half-Indian Taoiseach.
    , @Mitleser

    I’m reminded of the concept (probably done in movies or books) where the major powers cease conflict and assist each other to repel aliens in the event of an alien invasion. Reagan actually asked Gorbachev if they would do this – they both agreed.
     
    Gorbachev was a fool, of course. The right answer would be to make any assistance conditional.
    If the aliens are good socialists, why fight them?
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  • Brexit, Krexit and Crexit: Britain leaves the EU, Kurdistan declares independence from Iraq, Catalonia secedes from Spain – three massive political changes either under way or put on the political agenda by recent referendums. Three very different countries, but in all cases a conviction among a significant number of voters that they would be better...
  • @Wally
    The Armenians certainly slaughtered a lot of Turks too.

    Nice try.

    If Armenians supposedly slaughtered a lot of Turks, how is it that there are hardly any Armenians, or Assyrians, or Greeks left in Turkey today 2017, when 25% of Ottoman Turkey was Christian – Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks – circa 1915.

    Your genocidal, savage, nomad Muslim Turk kin from Uyguristan invaded Asia Minor, and over many centuries exterminated the indigenous Christian peoples, ending in the great Genocide of 1915-1923, when ~4 million Christians were exterminated.

    Try again you lying denialist filthy scum.

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  • @22pp22
    Great being Armenia too, They were slaughtered before the end of WWI. Then there was the massacre of the Iraqi Christians. I haven't seen anyone in Thessaloniki eating out of a garbage bin.

    The Armenians certainly slaughtered a lot of Turks too.

    Nice try.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    If Armenians supposedly slaughtered a lot of Turks, how is it that there are hardly any Armenians, or Assyrians, or Greeks left in Turkey today 2017, when 25% of Ottoman Turkey was Christian - Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks - circa 1915.

    Your genocidal, savage, nomad Muslim Turk kin from Uyguristan invaded Asia Minor, and over many centuries exterminated the indigenous Christian peoples, ending in the great Genocide of 1915-1923, when ~4 million Christians were exterminated.

    Try again you lying denialist filthy scum.

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  • @Mao Cheng Ji
    Yeah, "Referendums Are Always Doomed to Fail", "from the moment the polls closed on 23 June 2016, British society has been deeply divided, probably more so than at any time since the 17th-century civil war 375 years ago", and it's all "self-destructive idiocy".

    So, what about about all those the referenda for joining the EU? Joining the NATO? Those are fine, as far as you're concerned, I presume? People must accept that they are stupid, shut up, and follow wise and well-meaning liberal technocrats, eh?

    The Jacobite rising of 1745 didn’t indicate any divisions in British society.

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  • @Fiendly Neighborhood Terrorist
    They'd have been better off. The Ottoman Empire treated the Greeks well - it was the Ataturk Turkish Republic which massacred and exiled them - and under the Ottomans, Greek teachers weren't rooting in garbage bins for something to eat.

    { The Ottoman Empire treated the Greeks well }

    Nonsense.

    Ottomans (Muslim Turks) treated all non-Muslims as sub-humans.
    Especially the Christians: Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks.
    In 1895 Ottoman Sultan Hamid ordered the massacre of ~300,000 Armenians: sure sounds like treating Christians ‘well’, donnit?

    Before that, Christians of Asia Minor, which nomad Turks invaded ~1,000 A.D., were massacred, forcibly Islamized, their Christian children abducted and raised as Muslims, taxed into destitute, ….

    Where the Hell did you get the notion that invadonomad Turk savages from East and Central Asia treated indigenous Christians, quote, ‘well’?

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  • [I’ve lived with Islam and I don’t like it.]

    You are an ignorant zionist. I guess more than 6 millions that US CHRISTIAN/JEWISH killed in Vietnam were ‘Muslims’, 8 millions Christians killed in N. Korea. Thousands that Jews killed in occupied Palestine and still is going on, millions of people killed in Arab countries, women and children were raped. I guess millions that British CHRISTIAN killed in Africa, Asia to steal their resources are ignored by ignorant zionists?

    Take you LIES somewhere else

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  • @Fiendly Neighborhood Terrorist
    They'd have been better off. The Ottoman Empire treated the Greeks well - it was the Ataturk Turkish Republic which massacred and exiled them - and under the Ottomans, Greek teachers weren't rooting in garbage bins for something to eat.

    Great being Armenia too, They were slaughtered before the end of WWI. Then there was the massacre of the Iraqi Christians. I haven’t seen anyone in Thessaloniki eating out of a garbage bin.

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    • Replies: @Wally
    The Armenians certainly slaughtered a lot of Turks too.

    Nice try.
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  • @ananymos
    [According to this bozo, they should have stayed as dhimmis in the Ottoman Empire.]

    You are so silly to write such a silly statement. dhimmis is HOAX like 'antisemite'. These people were rich and influential in Muslim countries. Look at the situation now and laugh at yourself,

    The land of Palestinians has been stolen by ziofascist and influence of Rottenchild family where was transferred to European colonists with the blessing of the criminal West and Russia. The kurds who are in evil Empire army and trained by mass murderers ziofasicst have NO RIGHT to a state. They never has a country and never will. No one will trust traitor kurds who are fighting for an Evil Empire to grab land and oil wells in Iraq and Syria to claim is theirs. The kurds are in the service of the enemy, US/Israel, and should be punished as one.

    I grew up in a place in England. The nearest city where I went to school had a huge Muslim minority. I am not ignorant. Dhimmi is not a hoax, nor are grooming gangs.

    I’ve lived with Islam and I don’t like it.

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  • @Fiendly Neighborhood Terrorist
    They'd have been better off. The Ottoman Empire treated the Greeks well - it was the Ataturk Turkish Republic which massacred and exiled them - and under the Ottomans, Greek teachers weren't rooting in garbage bins for something to eat.

    The Ottoman Empire treated the Greeks well

    Where did you get that idea?

    Ever hear of the history of Eyalet of Epirus, or the history of Ioaninna, or of the Souliote wars to name just a few instances of where you may want to modify that statement?

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  • @rosemerry
    Because of the UK's colonial past, most of the Muslim immigrants would come not from the EU but from Pakistan and even India, so being outside the EU would not help.

    I didn’t say it would, though it’s at least a start on the long hard road to getting back control of our borders. I merely pointed out that “populism” in general is a necessary response to dysfunctional and corrupted supposed democratic “representation”, and gave a specific example.

    That’s as true on Brexit, by the way, as it is on muslim and other immigration. A narrow majority voted to outright leave the EU. How many MPs do you think before the vote would have supported the leave option in a free Commons vote? Put it this way, it would have been a lot less than half of them.

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  • @The Alarmist
    The Scots are a real mystery, because they weren't nearly as mistreated as others, and they have "punched above their weight" in British politics and business for much of the last couple of centuries.

    To be fair, so did Ulstermen like Bernard Montgomery and Nicholson. The Empire was a joint enterprise in which Scots and Ulstermen played a leading role. But Scots have retained their influence in politics, while political Ulstermen have concentrated on Ulster’s divisions.

    Be interesting to see if Scottish political prominence survives the rise of Scottish nationalism.

    http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/13104/nikal-seyn-the-fearless-lion-of-the-punjab/

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  • The kurds are in the service of US/Israel and close cooperation with ISIS against Syrian Government, are stealing land with oil wells. It is necessary for Russia to bomb their position and force criminal trump regime out of Syria and punish the traitor kurds.

    Despite Syrian Government’s Attempts to Unify Country US-backed Kurdish SDF Persist with Land Theft

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/despite-syrian-governments-attempts-to-unify-country-us-backed-kurdish-sdf-persist-with-land-theft/5612716

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  • I’m a “Brexiteer” with no illusions about Britain’s so-called glorious past but definite and specific fears about an inglorious future trapped in an EU in which creatures like the unelected and heavily-overpaid Juncker, who rose to fame devising tax scams for corporations, and who govern us ignorant cogs; in which sages like Merkel decide one day that every unskilled, functionally illiterate migrant in North Africa and the mid East is ‘welcome to come to Germany’ and then decides that what she meant was ‘everywhere in Europe that didn’t ask for them and doesn’t want them’; and I am really worried about an economic system that so clearly works against the interests of the majority of the population and for the benefit of transnational corporations like those served by creatures like Juncker. If that’s a future you want, move to France or Germany. They’d love to have you.

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  • @YetAnotherAnon
    I think that's called "making a virtue of necessity". Wales had been unable to stop English (Norman?) conquest since Edward I time (despite Glyndwr), whereas Scotland was in doubt until after 1745 (and the Scottish Parliament had signed up for union in 1703, because they were bust after the Darien misadventure).

    The Scots are a real mystery, because they weren’t nearly as mistreated as others, and they have “punched above their weight” in British politics and business for much of the last couple of centuries.

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    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    To be fair, so did Ulstermen like Bernard Montgomery and Nicholson. The Empire was a joint enterprise in which Scots and Ulstermen played a leading role. But Scots have retained their influence in politics, while political Ulstermen have concentrated on Ulster's divisions.

    Be interesting to see if Scottish political prominence survives the rise of Scottish nationalism.


    http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/13104/nikal-seyn-the-fearless-lion-of-the-punjab/
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  • @The Alarmist
    Yeah, there was a fair amount of good, old-fashioned conquest going on, but the acts of Union were readily and willingly signed onto by the Welsh nobles, who jumped at the chance to be accepted as equals at Westminster.

    I think that’s called “making a virtue of necessity”. Wales had been unable to stop English (Norman?) conquest since Edward I time (despite Glyndwr), whereas Scotland was in doubt until after 1745 (and the Scottish Parliament had signed up for union in 1703, because they were bust after the Darien misadventure).

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    The Scots are a real mystery, because they weren't nearly as mistreated as others, and they have "punched above their weight" in British politics and business for much of the last couple of centuries.
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  • @YetAnotherAnon
    "This is how England brought Wales into the Union."

    I thought things were a bit more forceful than buying a few people off - building a lot of castles was involved, men on horseback with swords etc. Long time since there was a Parliament in Machynlleth.

    The disasters of the UK fall upon Wales as hard as on any nation, as you hear more Scouse than Welsh in Bangor, wealthier English refugees from diversity buy up housing in Welsh-speaking Cardigan, North Pembrokeshire and Merioneth (Gwynedd to you young-uns) - while the useless Plaid Cymru virtue signal even as Cardiff and Swansea city centres start to look like somewhere east of the Balkans.

    Yeah, there was a fair amount of good, old-fashioned conquest going on, but the acts of Union were readily and willingly signed onto by the Welsh nobles, who jumped at the chance to be accepted as equals at Westminster.

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    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    I think that's called "making a virtue of necessity". Wales had been unable to stop English (Norman?) conquest since Edward I time (despite Glyndwr), whereas Scotland was in doubt until after 1745 (and the Scottish Parliament had signed up for union in 1703, because they were bust after the Darien misadventure).
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  • […] The Unz Review: This Is Why Referendums Are Always Doomed to Fail By PATRICK COCKBURN […]

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  • @anonymos
    Joshua M. Landis is an expert on Syria. He is the head of the Center for Middle East Studies at the University of Oklahoma, and since 2004 has published the blog Syria Comment.
    Mr. Landis is close to USG where regularly appears on the zionist media. His view on President Assad is close to mass murderers in Washington. Yet, he is very concerned with the prejudices committed by the traitor kurds against minorities in Syria.

    Although I do not agree with his views on Syria, but what he is discussing here is very ALARMING.
    Barzani clan is very corrupt where enriched themselves on Iraqis' stolen oil. Barzani family mememnbers are billionaires and have occupied every important job in Kurdish area in Iraq and Syria. Although Barzani family have stolen millions of dollars and transferred to the Western Banks and made investments in REAL ESTATE in the west, but, the Kuridsh teachers and other workers have not been paid for months. Some of them may eating grass to survive while Barzani mafia sitting on stolen money. Barzani is NOT a president since two years ago, but continues as 'president' illegally. Referendum is against Iraqi's constitution.


    He writes:


    [The KDP Patronage System

    While it is fully within the rights of anyone to join a political party of their preference, including the KDP, it must be understood that the KDP pursues a strategy of selecting members of minority communities to serve as figureheads, putting them on the Party’s payroll, appointing them to positions of importance, and then using them to implement its policy agendas while pointing at them to make the claim that the KDP enjoys significant loyalty within the minority community. The following excerpts from the report discuss the KDP patronage strategy:

    To strengthen their prospects of incorporating the Nineveh Plain into the Kurdistan Region, Kurdish authorities have for more than a decade practiced a strategy of offering incentives to minority communities in exchange for their support for the KRG’s claims to the Nineveh Plain, while imposing restrictions on those who do not. The KDP buys the allegiances of many Assyrian tribal and political leaders through a patronage system that fosters political divisions within the community]


    His discussion reveals the face of fascist terrorist kurds, to wipe the indigenous population off the map. WE NEVER ALLOW A SECOND ISRAEL IN THE REGION. All Kurds who have been cooperating with the evil empire, ISIS to steal Syrian and Iraqis' land with oil wells are TRAITORS AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS WAR CRIMINALS.

    http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/

    The terrorist kurds are copying the zionist ethnic cleanings in Syria, Iraq and elsewhere.

    See Syriangirl’s postings on how non Kurds are being terrorised and intimidated into voting the “right” way by the Kurds. And the stuffing of ballot boxes and other abuses. That’s if Facebook/ YouTube haven’t been doing their usual censorship party piece.

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  • anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Cockburn’s somewhat superior sniffing at democratic referendums is not surprising. Globalist elites find democracy and elections SOOOOO inconvenient. Perhaps we could do away with democracy altogether and let Superior Beings like him take all the decisions for us.

    People voted for Brexit, not because they were harking back to some imaginary golden age, but because they were repelled by the insufferable arrogance, the endemic corruption, and comprehensively anti democratic nature of the EU.

    If 52% is insufficient to decide the outcome, then how many MPs elected on barely a third of the vote need to find alternative employment? It’s strange how MPs try to impose high thresholds on referendums and trade union voting which they would never accept for themselves.

    Cockburn has a problem with the 42% Catalan turnout. Quite a few people had difficulty voting – they were busy trying to avoid being clubbed, shot, beaten up and sexually assaulted by Madrid’s Fascist thugs. That’s if they could find a polling station that hadn’t been smashed up or a ballot box that hadn’t been stolen. The referendum certainly had one great advantage – it showed the true character of the Fascist regime Catalans have to decide whether they wish to belong to.

    A few years ago the Swiss held a referendum on whether or not to buy some more planes for the Swiss air force. And if so, whether to buy American, Swedish or Russian planes. The Swiss voted to buy some more planes, and to get them from America. Seemed to work perfectly well.

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  • @The Alarmist

    "The problem with the UK now is that most of the governing class are bought and paid for, and don’t have the interests of ordinary Brits at heart."
     
    Sauce for the Gander. This is how England brought Wales into the Union.

    “This is how England brought Wales into the Union.”

    I thought things were a bit more forceful than buying a few people off – building a lot of castles was involved, men on horseback with swords etc. Long time since there was a Parliament in Machynlleth.

    The disasters of the UK fall upon Wales as hard as on any nation, as you hear more Scouse than Welsh in Bangor, wealthier English refugees from diversity buy up housing in Welsh-speaking Cardigan, North Pembrokeshire and Merioneth (Gwynedd to you young-uns) – while the useless Plaid Cymru virtue signal even as Cardiff and Swansea city centres start to look like somewhere east of the Balkans.

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    Yeah, there was a fair amount of good, old-fashioned conquest going on, but the acts of Union were readily and willingly signed onto by the Welsh nobles, who jumped at the chance to be accepted as equals at Westminster.
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  • “British society has been deeply divided, probably more so than at any time since the 17th-century civil war 375 years ago.”

    Dude, that Civil War had nothing to do with a divide in society and everything to do with a divide at the top of the house as to the balace of powers between them. It only filtered down to the rest of society in the way they owed allegiances and obligations to those above them.

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  • @YetAnotherAnon
    "In fact, Britons, Kurds and Catalans are more like Edward Lear’s Jumblies, who famously went to sea in a sieve despite warnings that they would all be drowned"

    Britain managed as an independent nation from 1700-odd til 1972. The problem with the UK now is that most of the governing class are bought and paid for, and don't have the interests of ordinary Brits at heart.

    (It's interesting btw to see the usual suspects, supporters of murderous Irish nationalism for decades, suddenly finding the hidden virtues of the Spanish and Iraqi states.)

    “The problem with the UK now is that most of the governing class are bought and paid for, and don’t have the interests of ordinary Brits at heart.”

    Sauce for the Gander. This is how England brought Wales into the Union.

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    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "This is how England brought Wales into the Union."

    I thought things were a bit more forceful than buying a few people off - building a lot of castles was involved, men on horseback with swords etc. Long time since there was a Parliament in Machynlleth.

    The disasters of the UK fall upon Wales as hard as on any nation, as you hear more Scouse than Welsh in Bangor, wealthier English refugees from diversity buy up housing in Welsh-speaking Cardigan, North Pembrokeshire and Merioneth (Gwynedd to you young-uns) - while the useless Plaid Cymru virtue signal even as Cardiff and Swansea city centres start to look like somewhere east of the Balkans.

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  • @Randal
    The usual biased anti-Brexit propaganda from yet another establishment journalist who is clearly unable to overcome his own partisan view on the issue.

    The awkward fact for the likes of Cockburn is that the whole reason for what establishment figures like him refer to dismissively as "populism" and claim is a function of ignorant masses led astray by manipulative demagogues, is the systematically unrepresentative nature of our supposed political representatives on particular issues, such as mass immigration, open borders, and the subordination of the nation to globalism and internationalism for profit.

    As an example, here's a Chatham House survey of European opinion on muslim immigration:

    What Do Europeans Think About Muslim Immigration?

    Drawing on a unique, new Chatham House survey of more than 10,000 people from 10 European states, we can throw new light on what people think about migration from mainly Muslim countries. Our results are striking and sobering. They suggest that public opposition to any further migration from predominantly Muslim states is by no means confined to Trump’s electorate in the US but is fairly widespread.

    In our survey, carried out before President Trump’s executive order was announced, respondents were given the following statement: ‘All further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped’. They were then asked to what extent did they agree or disagree with this statement. Overall, across all 10 of the European countries an average of 55% agreed that all further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped, 25% neither agreed nor disagreed and 20% disagreed.

    Majorities in all but two of the ten states agreed, ranging from 71% in Poland, 65% in Austria, 53% in Germany and 51% in Italy to 47% in the United Kingdom and 41% in Spain. In no country did the percentage that disagreed surpass 32%.
     
    In which of those countries is there a legislature that honestly reflects, or even begins to reflect, that general consensus on muslim immigration?

    Certainly not in Britain, France, or Germany, where such views are dogmatically dismissed as "unacceptable" and their expression is close to being outright criminalised, and probably with Cockburn's enthusiastic support.

    Because of the UK’s colonial past, most of the Muslim immigrants would come not from the EU but from Pakistan and even India, so being outside the EU would not help.

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    • Replies: @Randal
    I didn't say it would, though it's at least a start on the long hard road to getting back control of our borders. I merely pointed out that "populism" in general is a necessary response to dysfunctional and corrupted supposed democratic "representation", and gave a specific example.

    That's as true on Brexit, by the way, as it is on muslim and other immigration. A narrow majority voted to outright leave the EU. How many MPs do you think before the vote would have supported the leave option in a free Commons vote? Put it this way, it would have been a lot less than half of them.
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  • I normally like Mr. Cockburn’s writing. But that is when he sticks to what he’s very knowledgeable about, which is the politics of the Middle East. I liked his previous article on the Kurdish moves and the problems they will likely face. It was well informed and appears to be turning out to be accurate.

    However, in this case, he appears to have let his own personal animosity towards Brexit drive his writing off the cliff into total nonsense. Too bad. Or, perhaps his editors requested/required this. I’ve noticed of late that the columnists for the Independent seem to be following editorial guidance more.

    Either way, I look forward to when Mr. Cockburn returns to writing about what he’s very knowledgeable about. I miss his older brother’s writing now that he’s gone, so I appreciate the younger Cockburn a bit more. On most days.

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  • A non-binding referendum must be annulled? How? Such a requirement is utter idiocy.

    Referenda have their place. Questions such as were presented on Brexit and secession are good examples of this. When the answer to the question is either yes or no, then such a vote is legit. There is no such thing as being kinda pregnant, and on such issues as Brexit, you’re either in or out. One side is going to be dissatisfied, but that’s the nature of democracy.

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  • @Fiendly Neighborhood Terrorist
    They'd have been better off. The Ottoman Empire treated the Greeks well - it was the Ataturk Turkish Republic which massacred and exiled them - and under the Ottomans, Greek teachers weren't rooting in garbage bins for something to eat.

    “The Ottoman Empire treated the Greeks well”

    Pity about the Bulgarians, eh?

    http://www.attackingthedevil.co.uk/related/macgahan.php

    “In the midst of this heap, I could distinguish the slight skeleton form, still enclosed in a chemise, the skull wrapped about with a coloured handkerchief, and the bony ankles encased in the embroidered footless stockings worn by Bulgarian girls. We looked about us. The ground was strewed with bones in every direction, where the dogs had carried them off to gnaw them at their leisure. At the distance of a hundred yards beneath us lay the town. As seen from our standpoint, it reminded one somewhat of the ruins of Herculaneum and Pompeii . There was not a roof left, not a whole wall standing; all was a mass of ruins, from which arose as we listened a low plaintive wail, like the “keening” of the Irish over their dead, that filled the little valley and gave it voice. We had the explanation of this curious sound when we afterwards descended into the village. We looked again at the heap of skulls and skeletons before us, and we observed that they were all small and that the articles of clothing intermingled with them and lying about were all women’s apparel. These, then, were all women and girls. From my saddle I counted about a hundred skulls, not including those that were hidden beneath the others in the ghastly heap nor those that were scattered far and wide through the fields. The skulls were nearly all separated from the rest of the bones – the skeletons were nearly all headless. These women had all been beheaded. We descended into the town. Within the shattered walls of the first house we came to was a woman sitting upon a heap of rubbish rocking herself to and fro, wailing a kind of monotonous chant, half sung, half sobbed, that was not without a wild discordant melody. In her lap she held a babe, and another child sat beside her patiently and silently, and looked at us as we passed with wondering eyes. She paid no attention to us, but we bent our ear to hear what she was saying, and our interpreter said it was as follows: “My home, my home, my poor home, my sweet home; my husband, my husband, my dear husband, my poor husband; my home, my sweet home,” and so on, repeating the same words over again a thousand times. In the next house were two engaged in a similar way; one old, the other young, repeating words nearly identical: “I had a home, now I have none; I had a husband, now I am a widow; I had a son, and now I have none; I had five children, and now I have one,” while rocking themselves to and fro, beating their heads and wringing their hands. “

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  • “In fact, Britons, Kurds and Catalans are more like Edward Lear’s Jumblies, who famously went to sea in a sieve despite warnings that they would all be drowned”

    Britain managed as an independent nation from 1700-odd til 1972. The problem with the UK now is that most of the governing class are bought and paid for, and don’t have the interests of ordinary Brits at heart.

    (It’s interesting btw to see the usual suspects, supporters of murderous Irish nationalism for decades, suddenly finding the hidden virtues of the Spanish and Iraqi states.)

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    "The problem with the UK now is that most of the governing class are bought and paid for, and don’t have the interests of ordinary Brits at heart."
     
    Sauce for the Gander. This is how England brought Wales into the Union.
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  • @22pp22
    I am writing from Greece, where many many people are in dire financial straits. Iceland was outside the EU and picked itself up from its own financial armageddon. Greece is being crucified pour encourager les autres.

    Seen from my window, Cockburn's bletherings look plain silly.

    According to this bozo, they should have stayed as dhimmis in the Ottoman Empire.

    They’d have been better off. The Ottoman Empire treated the Greeks well – it was the Ataturk Turkish Republic which massacred and exiled them – and under the Ottomans, Greek teachers weren’t rooting in garbage bins for something to eat.

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    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "The Ottoman Empire treated the Greeks well"

    Pity about the Bulgarians, eh?

    http://www.attackingthedevil.co.uk/related/macgahan.php


    "In the midst of this heap, I could distinguish the slight skeleton form, still enclosed in a chemise, the skull wrapped about with a coloured handkerchief, and the bony ankles encased in the embroidered footless stockings worn by Bulgarian girls. We looked about us. The ground was strewed with bones in every direction, where the dogs had carried them off to gnaw them at their leisure. At the distance of a hundred yards beneath us lay the town. As seen from our standpoint, it reminded one somewhat of the ruins of Herculaneum and Pompeii . There was not a roof left, not a whole wall standing; all was a mass of ruins, from which arose as we listened a low plaintive wail, like the “keening” of the Irish over their dead, that filled the little valley and gave it voice. We had the explanation of this curious sound when we afterwards descended into the village. We looked again at the heap of skulls and skeletons before us, and we observed that they were all small and that the articles of clothing intermingled with them and lying about were all women's apparel. These, then, were all women and girls. From my saddle I counted about a hundred skulls, not including those that were hidden beneath the others in the ghastly heap nor those that were scattered far and wide through the fields. The skulls were nearly all separated from the rest of the bones - the skeletons were nearly all headless. These women had all been beheaded. We descended into the town. Within the shattered walls of the first house we came to was a woman sitting upon a heap of rubbish rocking herself to and fro, wailing a kind of monotonous chant, half sung, half sobbed, that was not without a wild discordant melody. In her lap she held a babe, and another child sat beside her patiently and silently, and looked at us as we passed with wondering eyes. She paid no attention to us, but we bent our ear to hear what she was saying, and our interpreter said it was as follows: “My home, my home, my poor home, my sweet home; my husband, my husband, my dear husband, my poor husband; my home, my sweet home,” and so on, repeating the same words over again a thousand times. In the next house were two engaged in a similar way; one old, the other young, repeating words nearly identical: “I had a home, now I have none; I had a husband, now I am a widow; I had a son, and now I have none; I had five children, and now I have one,” while rocking themselves to and fro, beating their heads and wringing their hands. "
     
    , @jacques sheete

    The Ottoman Empire treated the Greeks well
     
    Where did you get that idea?

    Ever hear of the history of Eyalet of Epirus, or the history of Ioaninna, or of the Souliote wars to name just a few instances of where you may want to modify that statement?
    , @22pp22
    Great being Armenia too, They were slaughtered before the end of WWI. Then there was the massacre of the Iraqi Christians. I haven't seen anyone in Thessaloniki eating out of a garbage bin.
    , @Avery
    { The Ottoman Empire treated the Greeks well }

    Nonsense.

    Ottomans (Muslim Turks) treated all non-Muslims as sub-humans.
    Especially the Christians: Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks.
    In 1895 Ottoman Sultan Hamid ordered the massacre of ~300,000 Armenians: sure sounds like treating Christians 'well', donnit?

    Before that, Christians of Asia Minor, which nomad Turks invaded ~1,000 A.D., were massacred, forcibly Islamized, their Christian children abducted and raised as Muslims, taxed into destitute, ....

    Where the Hell did you get the notion that invadonomad Turk savages from East and Central Asia treated indigenous Christians, quote, 'well'?
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  • I ‘m an American who knows history, so what I believe is that ….

    Governments require the consent of the governed.
    Governments exist to provide an environment of safety and happiness.
    When governments fail to do this, it is the right of the people to throw off such governments and replacement them with new forms they believe will better effect their safety and happiness.

    There seem to be some basic freedoms in this world, and I’d put this near or at the top of the list. If you can’t control the government that rules you, then you can not possibly think or claim that you are free.

    The one thing all three cases cited by Mr. Cockburn have in common is a belief of the people that the government that rules them is failing them. If you believe in freedom, then the people of all three have the right to try to see if another form of government better suits them.

    I would say the system needs to be flexible enough to let them go either way. Which also seems doubtful in these authoritarian days.

    One problem we seem to have world-wide is how elections can be manipulated in a media-intense society. But that goes to all modern elections and beyond just the question of referendums.

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  • What a buffoon.

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  • @polistra
    This is silly. If all independence movements are pointless, then most of Eurasia would still be Hittite. Or Roman. Or Greek. Or Persian. Or Ottoman. Or Nazi. Or Soviet.

    The truth is that some independence movements are necessary, some are optional but worth it, and many are counterproductive. The proper action is to determine which is which, encourage the worthwhile movements and discourage the futile ones.

    Sounds sensible.

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  • @polistra
    This is silly. If all independence movements are pointless, then most of Eurasia would still be Hittite. Or Roman. Or Greek. Or Persian. Or Ottoman. Or Nazi. Or Soviet.

    The truth is that some independence movements are necessary, some are optional but worth it, and many are counterproductive. The proper action is to determine which is which, encourage the worthwhile movements and discourage the futile ones.

    The truth is that some independence movements are necessary, some are optional but worth it, and many are counterproductive.

    This is 20-20 hindsight that attempts to sound clever. Some movements succeed. Some fail. Nobody took the Catalunian vote seriously until the Spanish central government in Madrid failed abysmally at thwarting the referendum. Now establishment politicians that support the entrenched political order are in panic that Madrid may not be able to put down the rebellion even if it does its best to.

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  • Joshua M. Landis is an expert on Syria. He is the head of the Center for Middle East Studies at the University of Oklahoma, and since 2004 has published the blog Syria Comment.
    Mr. Landis is close to USG where regularly appears on the zionist media. His view on President Assad is close to mass murderers in Washington. Yet, he is very concerned with the prejudices committed by the traitor kurds against minorities in Syria.

    Although I do not agree with his views on Syria, but what he is discussing here is very ALARMING.
    Barzani clan is very corrupt where enriched themselves on Iraqis’ stolen oil. Barzani family mememnbers are billionaires and have occupied every important job in Kurdish area in Iraq and Syria. Although Barzani family have stolen millions of dollars and transferred to the Western Banks and made investments in REAL ESTATE in the west, but, the Kuridsh teachers and other workers have not been paid for months. Some of them may eating grass to survive while Barzani mafia sitting on stolen money. Barzani is NOT a president since two years ago, but continues as ‘president’ illegally. Referendum is against Iraqi’s constitution.

    He writes:

    [The KDP Patronage System

    While it is fully within the rights of anyone to join a political party of their preference, including the KDP, it must be understood that the KDP pursues a strategy of selecting members of minority communities to serve as figureheads, putting them on the Party’s payroll, appointing them to positions of importance, and then using them to implement its policy agendas while pointing at them to make the claim that the KDP enjoys significant loyalty within the minority community. The following excerpts from the report discuss the KDP patronage strategy:

    To strengthen their prospects of incorporating the Nineveh Plain into the Kurdistan Region, Kurdish authorities have for more than a decade practiced a strategy of offering incentives to minority communities in exchange for their support for the KRG’s claims to the Nineveh Plain, while imposing restrictions on those who do not. The KDP buys the allegiances of many Assyrian tribal and political leaders through a patronage system that fosters political divisions within the community]

    His discussion reveals the face of fascist terrorist kurds, to wipe the indigenous population off the map. WE NEVER ALLOW A SECOND ISRAEL IN THE REGION. All Kurds who have been cooperating with the evil empire, ISIS to steal Syrian and Iraqis’ land with oil wells are TRAITORS AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS WAR CRIMINALS.

    http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/

    The terrorist kurds are copying the zionist ethnic cleanings in Syria, Iraq and elsewhere.

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    See Syriangirl's postings on how non Kurds are being terrorised and intimidated into voting the "right" way by the Kurds. And the stuffing of ballot boxes and other abuses. That's if Facebook/ YouTube haven't been doing their usual censorship party piece.
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  • @22pp22
    I am writing from Greece, where many many people are in dire financial straits. Iceland was outside the EU and picked itself up from its own financial armageddon. Greece is being crucified pour encourager les autres.

    Seen from my window, Cockburn's bletherings look plain silly.

    According to this bozo, they should have stayed as dhimmis in the Ottoman Empire.

    [According to this bozo, they should have stayed as dhimmis in the Ottoman Empire.]

    You are so silly to write such a silly statement. dhimmis is HOAX like ‘antisemite’. These people were rich and influential in Muslim countries. Look at the situation now and laugh at yourself,

    The land of Palestinians has been stolen by ziofascist and influence of Rottenchild family where was transferred to European colonists with the blessing of the criminal West and Russia. The kurds who are in evil Empire army and trained by mass murderers ziofasicst have NO RIGHT to a state. They never has a country and never will. No one will trust traitor kurds who are fighting for an Evil Empire to grab land and oil wells in Iraq and Syria to claim is theirs. The kurds are in the service of the enemy, US/Israel, and should be punished as one.

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    • Replies: @22pp22
    I grew up in a place in England. The nearest city where I went to school had a huge Muslim minority. I am not ignorant. Dhimmi is not a hoax, nor are grooming gangs.

    I've lived with Islam and I don't like it.

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  • @polistra
    This is silly. If all independence movements are pointless, then most of Eurasia would still be Hittite. Or Roman. Or Greek. Or Persian. Or Ottoman. Or Nazi. Or Soviet.

    The truth is that some independence movements are necessary, some are optional but worth it, and many are counterproductive. The proper action is to determine which is which, encourage the worthwhile movements and discourage the futile ones.

    You have a reasonable way of classifying independence movements. Cockburn is too lazy for that type of analysis.

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  • You have to give the bureaucrats a kicking every now and again to remind then who is the boss

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  • I am writing from Greece, where many many people are in dire financial straits. Iceland was outside the EU and picked itself up from its own financial armageddon. Greece is being crucified pour encourager les autres.

    Seen from my window, Cockburn’s bletherings look plain silly.

    According to this bozo, they should have stayed as dhimmis in the Ottoman Empire.

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    • Replies: @ananymos
    [According to this bozo, they should have stayed as dhimmis in the Ottoman Empire.]

    You are so silly to write such a silly statement. dhimmis is HOAX like 'antisemite'. These people were rich and influential in Muslim countries. Look at the situation now and laugh at yourself,

    The land of Palestinians has been stolen by ziofascist and influence of Rottenchild family where was transferred to European colonists with the blessing of the criminal West and Russia. The kurds who are in evil Empire army and trained by mass murderers ziofasicst have NO RIGHT to a state. They never has a country and never will. No one will trust traitor kurds who are fighting for an Evil Empire to grab land and oil wells in Iraq and Syria to claim is theirs. The kurds are in the service of the enemy, US/Israel, and should be punished as one.
    , @Fiendly Neighborhood Terrorist
    They'd have been better off. The Ottoman Empire treated the Greeks well - it was the Ataturk Turkish Republic which massacred and exiled them - and under the Ottomans, Greek teachers weren't rooting in garbage bins for something to eat.
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  • This is silly. If all independence movements are pointless, then most of Eurasia would still be Hittite. Or Roman. Or Greek. Or Persian. Or Ottoman. Or Nazi. Or Soviet.

    The truth is that some independence movements are necessary, some are optional but worth it, and many are counterproductive. The proper action is to determine which is which, encourage the worthwhile movements and discourage the futile ones.

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    • Replies: @Bayan
    You have a reasonable way of classifying independence movements. Cockburn is too lazy for that type of analysis.
    , @Zogby

    The truth is that some independence movements are necessary, some are optional but worth it, and many are counterproductive.
     
    This is 20-20 hindsight that attempts to sound clever. Some movements succeed. Some fail. Nobody took the Catalunian vote seriously until the Spanish central government in Madrid failed abysmally at thwarting the referendum. Now establishment politicians that support the entrenched political order are in panic that Madrid may not be able to put down the rebellion even if it does its best to.
    , @IndieRafael
    Sounds sensible.
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  • In a profoundly sick society headed for perdition, like modern Britain, only maximal division and hostility has a chance of helping.

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  • The EUreferendum website gives a neat view of the competence of the current government efforts at negotiating Britian’s interests.

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  • Yeah, “Referendums Are Always Doomed to Fail”, “from the moment the polls closed on 23 June 2016, British society has been deeply divided, probably more so than at any time since the 17th-century civil war 375 years ago“, and it’s all “self-destructive idiocy”.

    So, what about about all those the referenda for joining the EU? Joining the NATO? Those are fine, as far as you’re concerned, I presume? People must accept that they are stupid, shut up, and follow wise and well-meaning liberal technocrats, eh?

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    • Replies: @Logan
    The Jacobite rising of 1745 didn't indicate any divisions in British society.
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  • The usual biased anti-Brexit propaganda from yet another establishment journalist who is clearly unable to overcome his own partisan view on the issue.

    The awkward fact for the likes of Cockburn is that the whole reason for what establishment figures like him refer to dismissively as “populism” and claim is a function of ignorant masses led astray by manipulative demagogues, is the systematically unrepresentative nature of our supposed political representatives on particular issues, such as mass immigration, open borders, and the subordination of the nation to globalism and internationalism for profit.

    As an example, here’s a Chatham House survey of European opinion on muslim immigration:

    What Do Europeans Think About Muslim Immigration?

    Drawing on a unique, new Chatham House survey of more than 10,000 people from 10 European states, we can throw new light on what people think about migration from mainly Muslim countries. Our results are striking and sobering. They suggest that public opposition to any further migration from predominantly Muslim states is by no means confined to Trump’s electorate in the US but is fairly widespread.

    In our survey, carried out before President Trump’s executive order was announced, respondents were given the following statement: ‘All further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped’. They were then asked to what extent did they agree or disagree with this statement. Overall, across all 10 of the European countries an average of 55% agreed that all further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped, 25% neither agreed nor disagreed and 20% disagreed.

    Majorities in all but two of the ten states agreed, ranging from 71% in Poland, 65% in Austria, 53% in Germany and 51% in Italy to 47% in the United Kingdom and 41% in Spain. In no country did the percentage that disagreed surpass 32%.

    In which of those countries is there a legislature that honestly reflects, or even begins to reflect, that general consensus on muslim immigration?

    Certainly not in Britain, France, or Germany, where such views are dogmatically dismissed as “unacceptable” and their expression is close to being outright criminalised, and probably with Cockburn’s enthusiastic support.

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    • Replies: @rosemerry
    Because of the UK's colonial past, most of the Muslim immigrants would come not from the EU but from Pakistan and even India, so being outside the EU would not help.
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  • There is a famous scene in Shakespeare’s Henry V on the night before the battle of Agincourt, when the French lords speak of the inevitability of their coming victory. Puffed up with arrogance, they deride the English: “Do but behold yon poor and starved band.” Of course, all this is to be exposed as bombast...
  • @Erik Olson
    I wish not to engage in the open/closed border debate but to point out that libertarian position is often misunderstood/over simplified. An important part of libertarian philosophy is the concept that all property should be privately owned and that it's immoral to use force to transfer one's property to another.
    With these conditions in place there would be no place for immigrants to go and no way to obtain resources unless they engage in a voluntary transaction with a property holder or an owner of resources. Given this scenario immigrants would not want to migrate here unless they had reason to believe they could effectively participate in economic activity or knew that they would receive support from a voluntary provider.

    An important part of libertarian philosophy is the concept that all property should be privately owned and that it’s immoral to use force to transfer one’s property to another.

    Excellent. I shall henceforth identify as Neanderthal, and expect all you johnny-come-latelys to vacate muh patrimony (Europe) forthwith. Redskins should enforce their inalienable libertarian rights across the Pond, too.
    Of course, you always have the option of buying the whole shooting match off me, at its current fair market value. Much my preferred option.
    tl;dr
    all human relations are mediated by main force, or the threat of the same, and always have been. Ask a policeman if you don’t believe me.

    Or is this simply a desperate attempt to scoot away from the gaming table while your pile of chips is the biggest? The basic “Aristocrats’ Gambit”?
    History isn’t over, yet.

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  • @Sunbeam

    Prior to 1997, annual net immigration never exceeded 77 million, and was often much lower – frequently negative overall. From 1997 it climbed rapidly to a quarter of a million and never dropped below 177 million.
     
    You might want to clean up that paragraph. I'm sure your numbers are correct, but you said "million" instead of thousand or something. Guess it gets late anywhere at some time.

    What's scary is I was thinking is he talking about the world as a whole? Those numbers still seem too large for a world closing in on 7 billion people (unless we already crossed that rubicon). But if these libertarian/open border types get their wish we might see that one day. And I'm not using hyperbole. Totally open borders, I could see 177 million people changing their address in a blue moon year.

    I wish not to engage in the open/closed border debate but to point out that libertarian position is often misunderstood/over simplified. An important part of libertarian philosophy is the concept that all property should be privately owned and that it’s immoral to use force to transfer one’s property to another.
    With these conditions in place there would be no place for immigrants to go and no way to obtain resources unless they engage in a voluntary transaction with a property holder or an owner of resources. Given this scenario immigrants would not want to migrate here unless they had reason to believe they could effectively participate in economic activity or knew that they would receive support from a voluntary provider.

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    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted

    An important part of libertarian philosophy is the concept that all property should be privately owned and that it’s immoral to use force to transfer one’s property to another.
     
    Excellent. I shall henceforth identify as Neanderthal, and expect all you johnny-come-latelys to vacate muh patrimony (Europe) forthwith. Redskins should enforce their inalienable libertarian rights across the Pond, too.
    Of course, you always have the option of buying the whole shooting match off me, at its current fair market value. Much my preferred option.
    tl;dr
    all human relations are mediated by main force, or the threat of the same, and always have been. Ask a policeman if you don't believe me.

    Or is this simply a desperate attempt to scoot away from the gaming table while your pile of chips is the biggest? The basic "Aristocrats' Gambit"?
    History isn't over, yet.
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  • @saxongirl
    Bill, have you just dismissed the significance of patriotism or of your question? I should certainly agree that your question is of little interest, or better still, of no interest.

    The question. Since the patriotism doesn’t exist . . .

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  • Service jobs and construction ect are going to the immigrants that hypercapitalist logic shorn of any national feeling required bringing in. The manufacturing jobs are gone or going (manufacturing may come back, but with robots) and the clerical jobs will soon begin vanishing too. The only truly productive workers left will be computer programmers, yet the mass of the population expect to be able to have a middle class lifestyle. They won’t and there are a lot of them.

    The majority of the soon-to-be-obsolescent people still have enough in common for discontent to coalesce them into a formidable political (and perhaps paramilitary) force against the hypercapitalst system that destroyed their future. The mass revolt against Assad broke out immediately after he made the mistake of raising the price of commodities. You bet the UK is unstable. The only solution for the system is to amp up immigration and destroy the ethnic majority too fast for them to do anything about it.

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  • @Bill
    The "patriotism" which Americans celebrate is entirely of the "America the Idea" and the "thank our mercenaries for their service" varieties. Whether it is better to have that sort of patriotism or none at all is a question without a clear answer, but it is also a question of little interest.

    Bill, have you just dismissed the significance of patriotism or of your question? I should certainly agree that your question is of little interest, or better still, of no interest.

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    • Replies: @Bill
    The question. Since the patriotism doesn't exist . . .
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  • @saxongirl

    The British ruling class used to have a high international reputation for intelligence and realism in pursuit of its own interests. This may have been exaggerated, but latterly it seems to have lost its touch...
     
    You put your finger on the quick of it, Mr Cockburn, but then missed something sizeable: You cannot reference the

    British ruling class
     
    with your

    it
     
    in

    it seems to have lost....
     
    You see, the British ruling class is gone without a trace from public life. Our present puppet-masters are not even British -- they are Zionists run by international bankers and arms manufacturers, and their most trusted lieutenants are non-white non-Christians.

    Yes, Britain is unstable. You in the US, however (and I have no idea how this has come about), have patriotism and patriots, or least your national vocabulary celebrates it and them. You can, and you have, drawn on it and them. Not so in Britain. Here, the patriot is the despised fascist. It is the antifa, a motley crowd of all sorts from the sadly deluded and timid to the foul-mouthed and violent, who are the media-declared creatures of enlightenment whose mission is the subduing and eventual elimination of the arrogant indigenous British White Man. (The same goes for Germany.)

    But wait. All is not lost. The national spirit can be awakened. And then beware:

    THE WRATH OF THE AWAKENED SAXON
    by Rudyard Kipling

    It was not part of their blood,
    It came to them very late,
    With long arrears to make good,
    When the Saxon began to hate.

    They were not easily moved,
    They were icy -- willing to wait
    Till every count should be proved,
    Ere the Saxon began to hate.

    Their voices were even and low.
    Their eyes were level and straight.
    There was neither sign nor show
    When the Saxon began to hate.

    It was not preached to the crowd.
    It was not taught by the state.
    No man spoke it aloud
    When the Saxon began to hate.

    It was not suddenly bred.
    It will not swiftly abate.
    Through the chilled years ahead,
    When Time shall count from the date
    That the Saxon began to hate.

    The “patriotism” which Americans celebrate is entirely of the “America the Idea” and the “thank our mercenaries for their service” varieties. Whether it is better to have that sort of patriotism or none at all is a question without a clear answer, but it is also a question of little interest.

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    • Replies: @saxongirl
    Bill, have you just dismissed the significance of patriotism or of your question? I should certainly agree that your question is of little interest, or better still, of no interest.
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  • More unstable than in 1984, when Arthur Scargill started the NUM on the path to eventual extinction?

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  • @Bill Jones
    No mention I see of the Labour administrations of the 70's whose destruction Thatcher was elelected to correct.

    OK, compared to Thatcher, the Callaghan administration was also sound-money conservative. And under the Wilson administration a man on median wages could buy a house on a single wage, and support a stay at home wife raising the kids.

    Labour politicians then actually worried about things like the balance of payments, and disapproved of working people incurring excessive debt. The ‘destruction’ of the 1970s is as naught compared with the destruction of both the Thatcher and Blair eras.

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    • Agree: Philip Owen
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  • Is Britain unstable? Hard to say.

    But don’t worry. In a couple of generations or so, it won’t be Britain any more. Problem solved!

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  • The British ruling class used to have a high international reputation for intelligence and realism in pursuit of its own interests. This may have been exaggerated, but latterly it seems to have lost its touch…

    You put your finger on the quick of it, Mr Cockburn, but then missed something sizeable: You cannot reference the

    British ruling class

    with your

    it

    in

    it seems to have lost….

    You see, the British ruling class is gone without a trace from public life. Our present puppet-masters are not even British — they are Zionists run by international bankers and arms manufacturers, and their most trusted lieutenants are non-white non-Christians.

    Yes, Britain is unstable. You in the US, however (and I have no idea how this has come about), have patriotism and patriots, or least your national vocabulary celebrates it and them. You can, and you have, drawn on it and them. Not so in Britain. Here, the patriot is the despised fascist. It is the antifa, a motley crowd of all sorts from the sadly deluded and timid to the foul-mouthed and violent, who are the media-declared creatures of enlightenment whose mission is the subduing and eventual elimination of the arrogant indigenous British White Man. (The same goes for Germany.)

    But wait. All is not lost. The national spirit can be awakened. And then beware:

    THE WRATH OF THE AWAKENED SAXON
    by Rudyard Kipling

    [MORE]

    It was not part of their blood,
    It came to them very late,
    With long arrears to make good,
    When the Saxon began to hate.

    They were not easily moved,
    They were icy — willing to wait
    Till every count should be proved,
    Ere the Saxon began to hate.

    Their voices were even and low.
    Their eyes were level and straight.
    There was neither sign nor show
    When the Saxon began to hate.

    It was not preached to the crowd.
    It was not taught by the state.
    No man spoke it aloud
    When the Saxon began to hate.

    It was not suddenly bred.
    It will not swiftly abate.
    Through the chilled years ahead,
    When Time shall count from the date
    That the Saxon began to hate.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill
    The "patriotism" which Americans celebrate is entirely of the "America the Idea" and the "thank our mercenaries for their service" varieties. Whether it is better to have that sort of patriotism or none at all is a question without a clear answer, but it is also a question of little interest.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @YetAnotherAnon
    "manufacturing scandals such as the Whitewater real estate deal, the murder of the US ambassador in Benghazi and Hillary’s supposed mishandling of her private emails."

    I don't know much about Whitewater (Brit here) but Benghazi shows at the very least poor judgement (how many male candidates would survive revelations that they turned down requests for more security, following which decision a US ambassador was murdered?), and the private email server shows dreadful, culpably negligent misjudgement - it's the sort of thing for which people in much less sensitive roles are routinely sacked. These are real scandals, not manufactured ones.

    "Corbyn is a much better person than Trump" - yes, if Trump hung out with terrorist militias as Corbyn has. You don't half write some nonsense.

    “Corbyn is a much better person than Trump” ? Evidence of insanity.

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  • Wouldn’t Britain’s housing crisis have been greatly eased had not the Labour party allowed millions of foreigners to move to Britain, enormously exacerbating the demand for housing?

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  • @The Alarmist

    "Britain is far more divided than it used to be ...."
     
    I suppose you could lay a lot of the blame for this on the increase in the diversity of the population over the past couple of decades. I personally observe that the decline of Great Britain started with the Parliament Act of 1911, when the first great assault on the Hereditary Lords disturbed what had been a very successful social order, though I guess you could even go back to the Reform Acts in the 19th Century, which extended the franchise to landless commoners and those without a necessary stake in society other than collecting charity from it.

    I personally observe that the decline of Great Britain started with the Parliament Act of 1911, when the first great assault on the Hereditary Lords disturbed what had been a very successful social order.

    +1 for mentioning the Parliament Act 1911—if I could vote for you more than once, I w—wait, we don’t have votes here, so +100 then. (You’re not the chap I exchanged comments with on yt recently, I mentioned Mencius Moldbug to you?)
    Agree with you completely (although I thought it was the Representation of the People Act 1918 that removed the property qualification for men). As a good line goes (that I quoted to you last time, if you’re the yt guy):

    Tradition is a set of solutions for which we have forgotten the problems. Throw away the solution, and you get the problem back.

    (Donald Kingsbury, Courtship Rite (1982))

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  • @James N. Kennett
    Meanwhile, British police are powerless to prevent the operation of Russian agents in Britain. Numerous enemies of the Russian state have died in suspicious circumstances.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/poison-in-the-system

    : did you know Russians have killed at least 43 Brits since the end of WW2? Oh, wait, that wasn’t the Russians, that was the Americans: at least 43 dead British servicemen due to U.S. friendly fire since 1945.
    Ah, but there was Russian support for the IRA that led to—oh, no, that was the Americans as well. 2,115 murdered by Irish republican terrorists in the last stage—men, women, pregnant women, children, infants, elderly, dogs, horses, Catholics, Protestants, Australian, Dutch, Spanish, German, Irish—you name it, an Irish republican’s killed it…

    Some Irish-Americans have long provided financial and material support for violent efforts to compel the United Kingdom to relinquish control of Northern Ireland. In the 1880s, Irish-American members of Clan na Gael dynamited Britain’s Scotland Yard, Parliament, and the Tower of London, and detonated bombs at several stations in the London underground. In the twentieth century, Irish-Americans provided most of the financial support sent to the Irish Republican Army (IRA). The US-based Irish Northern Aid Committee (NORAID), founded in the late 1960s, provided the Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA) with money that was frequently used for arms purchases. Only after repeated high-level British requests and then London’s support for our bombing of Libya in the 1980s did the US Government crack down on Irish-American support for the IRA.

    (CIA Red Cell special memorandum on ”What If Foreigners See the United States as an ’Exporter of Terrorism’”. WikiLeaks release: August 25, 2010. Available at: http://wikileaks.org/file/us-cia-redcell-exporter-of-terrorism-2010.pdf)

    That note doesn’t take into account the IRA terrorists given asylum by USG. Still, USG did crack down, and to measure the success of that, we might consult the grieving relatives of Stephen Restorick, a British soldier killed by a round from an American Barrett .50 sniper rifle in 1997.
    Have the Russians killed any Brits at all since shooting our Sidney Reilly in 1925?
    Even if the claims of Big Bad Putin killing his enemies are true—and that is a huge ‘if’, given the anti-Russian propaganda routinely churned out by the liberal media—why, as a Brit, should I care if Russians are killing other Russians? On the whole, Russia is less dangerous to us than the Americans. And with promoting Christianity, opposing degeneracy, fighting Islam, it is Holy Russia that is the shining city on the hill now.

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  • @Priss Factor
    Brexit hasn't done crap to address the real problem.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8nwBlo7OzI

    It’s because Brexit was never intended to do that. This was always an internal Tory power struggle. The resistance to ECJ isn’t so much principle as what ECJ actually ruled(i.e. against Tories on workers rights and similar). Additionally the UK seems very confused about the negotiations about how to leave the EU. An example is that Article 50 has nothing to do with trade agreements. Article 50 is about leaving the EU.

    Either Davis, May and the others are really stupid/ignorant or they have from the beginning decided they don’t want a deal with the EU because they think they will be better off without it. I generally don’t think politicians at that level are stupid even when I disagree with their ideas.

    Immigration is obviously Britain’s major problem but if anyone thinks the major parties(including UKIP) really wants to change anything then I’ve got a bridge to sell. They’re all in agreement that when the Poles leave then they will be replaced by Commonwealthers. And those people aren’t White Australians. A point I’ve made countless times….

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  • @YetAnotherAnon
    The dead corpse of Thatcher is not completely irrelevant - it was under her administrations that personal and corporate debt increased massively (the former at least the result of policy decisions), and household incomes only increased because more women went out to work. In comparison to Thatcher, the Labour administrations of the 60s were sound-money conservatives.

    This meant a double whammy for house prices as more money chased the existing stock, and started the decline of the stay-at-home mum raising children.

    No mention I see of the Labour administrations of the 70′s whose destruction Thatcher was elelected to correct.

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    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    OK, compared to Thatcher, the Callaghan administration was also sound-money conservative. And under the Wilson administration a man on median wages could buy a house on a single wage, and support a stay at home wife raising the kids.

    Labour politicians then actually worried about things like the balance of payments, and disapproved of working people incurring excessive debt. The 'destruction' of the 1970s is as naught compared with the destruction of both the Thatcher and Blair eras.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @YetAnotherAnon
    "manufacturing scandals such as the Whitewater real estate deal, the murder of the US ambassador in Benghazi and Hillary’s supposed mishandling of her private emails."

    I don't know much about Whitewater (Brit here) but Benghazi shows at the very least poor judgement (how many male candidates would survive revelations that they turned down requests for more security, following which decision a US ambassador was murdered?), and the private email server shows dreadful, culpably negligent misjudgement - it's the sort of thing for which people in much less sensitive roles are routinely sacked. These are real scandals, not manufactured ones.

    "Corbyn is a much better person than Trump" - yes, if Trump hung out with terrorist militias as Corbyn has. You don't half write some nonsense.

    Just to add (non-Brit here) it wasn’t how Clinton handled her private eMails, we don’t actually give much of a rip about that; it was, and still is, how she handled classified State Dept eMail. What she did is a felony under the law and many of us would like to see her punished. And Comey too for his refusal to refer an open and shut case for prosecution.

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  • @RadicalCenter
    Do we have any evidence that President Trump employed illegal aliens to build his hotels and resorts? Not that I've seen.

    And you can bet if there were any such evidence, it would be news 24/7 until Trump resigned or was impeached for it.

    “Do we have any evidence that President Trump employed illegal aliens to build his hotels and resorts? Not that I’ve seen.”

    You don’t look very hard. To be fair, Trump is not alone with other corporate big-wigs.

    http://time.com/4465744/donald-trump-undocumented-workers/

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  • @James N. Kennett
    Meanwhile, British police are powerless to prevent the operation of Russian agents in Britain. Numerous enemies of the Russian state have died in suspicious circumstances.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/poison-in-the-system

    The Russians need to up their game. I won’t be applauding until they knock off Jeremy Corbyn.

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  • Cannot believe what I read here — Cllinton scandals manufactured? Mishandling of emails made up? I have no idea where such ideas come from, but anyone with even cursory knowledge knows that HRC refused to give up her emails, stonewalled, then turned in some with 33,000 missing because SHE decided the FBI didn’t need them. C’mon! And with classified information involved? Kinda hurts the credibility of the rest of the article.

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  • Meanwhile, British police are powerless to prevent the operation of Russian agents in Britain. Numerous enemies of the Russian state have died in suspicious circumstances.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/poison-in-the-system

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    • Replies: @Anon
    The Russians need to up their game. I won't be applauding until they knock off Jeremy Corbyn.
    , @Scotched earth
    @James N. Kennett: did you know Russians have killed at least 43 Brits since the end of WW2? Oh, wait, that wasn’t the Russians, that was the Americans: at least 43 dead British servicemen due to U.S. friendly fire since 1945.
    Ah, but there was Russian support for the IRA that led to—oh, no, that was the Americans as well. 2,115 murdered by Irish republican terrorists in the last stage—men, women, pregnant women, children, infants, elderly, dogs, horses, Catholics, Protestants, Australian, Dutch, Spanish, German, Irish—you name it, an Irish republican’s killed it…

    Some Irish-Americans have long provided financial and material support for violent efforts to compel the United Kingdom to relinquish control of Northern Ireland. In the 1880s, Irish-American members of Clan na Gael dynamited Britain’s Scotland Yard, Parliament, and the Tower of London, and detonated bombs at several stations in the London underground. In the twentieth century, Irish-Americans provided most of the financial support sent to the Irish Republican Army (IRA). The US-based Irish Northern Aid Committee (NORAID), founded in the late 1960s, provided the Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA) with money that was frequently used for arms purchases. Only after repeated high-level British requests and then London’s support for our bombing of Libya in the 1980s did the US Government crack down on Irish-American support for the IRA.
     
    (CIA Red Cell special memorandum on ”What If Foreigners See the United States as an ’Exporter of Terrorism’”. WikiLeaks release: August 25, 2010. Available at: http://wikileaks.org/file/us-cia-redcell-exporter-of-terrorism-2010.pdf)

    That note doesn’t take into account the IRA terrorists given asylum by USG. Still, USG did crack down, and to measure the success of that, we might consult the grieving relatives of Stephen Restorick, a British soldier killed by a round from an American Barrett .50 sniper rifle in 1997.
    Have the Russians killed any Brits at all since shooting our Sidney Reilly in 1925?
    Even if the claims of Big Bad Putin killing his enemies are true—and that is a huge ‘if’, given the anti-Russian propaganda routinely churned out by the liberal media—why, as a Brit, should I care if Russians are killing other Russians? On the whole, Russia is less dangerous to us than the Americans. And with promoting Christianity, opposing degeneracy, fighting Islam, it is Holy Russia that is the shining city on the hill now.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    The uncircumventable problem is that, to use Marxian terms, labor is at a colossal disadvantage vis-à-vis capital--Chindia and all that. The global East still has a few hundred million people to put online in the global economy, so it's going to get worse before it doesn't get better.

    Right-wing populists will ride the popular anger spawned by these shifts, but they don't seem to be dying to implement more than cosmetic changes. I find it ironic that The Donald's huge, great, amazing, terrific buildings must have taken a lot of undocumented labor to erect.

    Do we have any evidence that President Trump employed illegal aliens to build his hotels and resorts? Not that I’ve seen.

    And you can bet if there were any such evidence, it would be news 24/7 until Trump resigned or was impeached for it.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Do we have any evidence that President Trump employed illegal aliens to build his hotels and resorts? Not that I’ve seen."

    You don't look very hard. To be fair, Trump is not alone with other corporate big-wigs.

    http://time.com/4465744/donald-trump-undocumented-workers/
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  • @jim jones
    Every child in my neighbourhood finished school, got a decent job and bought a house with no problems. The author makes a living from dystopian hysteria.

    Great for the kids around your area, then.

    You obviously don’t live in the Los Angeles / Orange County area, nor NYC / Northern New Jersey, nor many other metro areas where kids coming out of college (or grad / professional school) are definitely NOT able to buy a house — not even close, in most cases, and that’s still true after they have been out working for five years.

    It may be dystopia, but it’s not hysteria in many parts of “our” former country.

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  • @Verymuchalive
    Actually, it was the Wilson Government's tax and welfare changes of the mid-1960s which spelled the end of the stay-at-home mum. See James Bartholomew's excellent " The Welfare State We're In"
    House prices have been going up at a higher rate than general inflation since at least the early 1960s. So the question of house affordability has been around for a long time before the Thatcher Government.
    Likewise, the Wilson Government agreed to the Kennedy Round of Gatt in 1968, which effectively ushered in Free Trade. Large swathes of British Industry was uncompetitive by world standards, so by the early 1970s massive import penetration was closing British factories wholesale. Many industries have never recovered.
    With a complete lack of irony, Anthony Wedgewood Benn, one of Wilson's ministers at the time, would later call Thatcher " an Edwardian Liberal" She may have been, but what was he ?
    The Labour Governments of the 1960s were probably the biggest single cause of our present problems. The welfare system should not have been altered, and tariff and quota barriers should have been retained while British industry was modernised.
    And it was during the Wilson Government that Enoch Powell made his famous speech on non-white immigration.
    Granted, Margaret Thatcher was an opportunity lost, but blame must be placed on those who actually devised these policies.

    Look at the graph here:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-16545898

    Now when was Thatcher first elected?

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  • @Verymuchalive
    Actually, it was the Wilson Government's tax and welfare changes of the mid-1960s which spelled the end of the stay-at-home mum. See James Bartholomew's excellent " The Welfare State We're In"
    House prices have been going up at a higher rate than general inflation since at least the early 1960s. So the question of house affordability has been around for a long time before the Thatcher Government.
    Likewise, the Wilson Government agreed to the Kennedy Round of Gatt in 1968, which effectively ushered in Free Trade. Large swathes of British Industry was uncompetitive by world standards, so by the early 1970s massive import penetration was closing British factories wholesale. Many industries have never recovered.
    With a complete lack of irony, Anthony Wedgewood Benn, one of Wilson's ministers at the time, would later call Thatcher " an Edwardian Liberal" She may have been, but what was he ?
    The Labour Governments of the 1960s were probably the biggest single cause of our present problems. The welfare system should not have been altered, and tariff and quota barriers should have been retained while British industry was modernised.
    And it was during the Wilson Government that Enoch Powell made his famous speech on non-white immigration.
    Granted, Margaret Thatcher was an opportunity lost, but blame must be placed on those who actually devised these policies.

    Not just Wilson. Changes in mortgage policy also drove women away from the family. Once two incomes were taken into account, first the greedy, then the rest took out loans based on two incomes. Now two incomes are needed for what one could buy before. Higher household incomes than ever deliver a lower quality of life. Finance is the beneficiary. The US was ahead of the UK in this. Continental Europe, where many rent, was behind. Germany, of all places, was a laggard in the exit of women from the home.

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  • @The Alarmist
    "manufacturing scandals"

    I suppose the Republicans manufactured the > 100 persons who crossed the Clintons' paths and met their untimely demises.

    I suppose the Republicans manufactured the > 100 persons who crossed the Clintons’ paths and met their untimely demises.

    No fan of the Clintons here, but that is an example of a fabricated scandal and a distraction from their very real misdeeds.

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  • @Boudicca
    Re Corbyn: Antifa propaganda:

    "#WelcomeToCanada

    28 January 2017, Justin Trudeau tweeted: “To those fleeing persecution, terror & war, Canadians will welcome you, regardless of your faith. Diversity is our strength #WelcomeToCanada.” The boldest declaration of open borders. At first, it was dozens, then hundreds fleeing fascist and white supremacist America. August, Olympic Stadium in Montreal is requisitioned and converted into a refugee asylum centre.

    Jean-Pierre Fortin, president Canada Border Services Agency union: “500 people crossed the border on Tuesday alone…The numbers have exploded in the last week and a half. My colleagues at the border said it was a similar day today [Wednesday].” This dire situation will no doubt get worse: there are at least 20 million undocumented migrants in the United States who fear persecution. Canada must prepare for millions of refugees.

    Jeremy Corbyn offers one solution: “It can’t be acceptable that in London we have luxury buildings and luxury flats left empty as land banking for the future while the homeless and the poor look for somewhere to live…properties must be found - requisitioned if necessary - to make sure those residents do get re-housed…” Likewise in Vancouver, a “New census counts 25,502 unoccupied homes in Vancouver, 15% jump over 2011.” Yes, over 25,000 homes just sitting empty. There are also 100s of 1000s of unoccupied apartments that sit vacant. Requisitioning these empty homes and assigning refugees to them would help.

    More housing will be needed to accommodate the African diaspora: “Ali, who came to Canada from Somalia in 1992 with five children, had six more kids with her husband after she arrived. But in 1999 her husband left and a year later a workplace injury forced her to quit her job as a cleaner.” (Toronto Star). The good news is under the new Canada Child Benefit, women like Ali now receive $64,400 per year, tax free. Despite the spectre of Islamophobia, Muslims are flourishing in Canada: “In fact, in 2011, the census showed 1,053,945 Muslims living in Canada - nearly double the 2001 figure of 579,640, which was in turn more than double the 1991 figure of 253,265.” (Anewlife.ca).

    Housing aside, New Canadians still face grievous hardships due to inequality. Doug Saunders: “There are two factors in particular that make Canada’s cycle of privilege a closed loop that excludes outsiders. The first is Canada’s lack of an inheritance tax. Estates (including houses) are taxed as income upon their owner’s death, then can be passed on to children – removing incentives to put that wealth to better and more productive use…[inheritance tax] expands privilege rather than keeping it cloistered.” (The other factor is private schools.) As Abi Wilkinson writes in the Guardian: “Why not fund the welfare state with a 100% inheritance tax?”

    Canada is still a long way from full diversity, that is, reflecting the globe - 23% Muslim, 16% African, 18% Indian… But as Canada becomes stronger through diversity, it will grow ever closer to 100% diverse welfare state, the needs of its diverse citizens entirely taken care of by the Dear Leader Justin Trudeau and the Party. Young Canadian women have the opportunity to marry and make babies with young men from Africa and Asia thus further reducing white privilege. (Recall the enlightened José Rodríguez de Francia who banned Europeans from marrying each other; they had to wed Indians, Africans or Mulattos.) The cycle of privilege will be broken as blood inheritance, “good breeding”, nativism, private schools and clubs, private property, and the apartheid system are swept away.

    #WelcomeToCanada"

    A large number of the unoccupied homes in Vancouver are owned as investments by wealthy mainland Chinese. That is encouraged by the “investor immigrant” policy which has resulted in some investment in business assets but largely land speculation. When such investor-immigrant homes are occupied it is often by the offspring of the wealthy investor. A similar thing is happening in the LA suburb of Arcadia, where upscale homes are being turned into love nests occupied by Chinese mistresses. IMO the entry of big Asian money underway on the west coast will bring changes to the economy and culture on the scale of the tech boom. It will be interesting.

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  • @Anonymous
    The uncircumventable problem is that, to use Marxian terms, labor is at a colossal disadvantage vis-à-vis capital--Chindia and all that. The global East still has a few hundred million people to put online in the global economy, so it's going to get worse before it doesn't get better.

    Right-wing populists will ride the popular anger spawned by these shifts, but they don't seem to be dying to implement more than cosmetic changes. I find it ironic that The Donald's huge, great, amazing, terrific buildings must have taken a lot of undocumented labor to erect.

    labor & capital produce an excess. the excess goes to capital.

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