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    The question of Indian IQ is a big puzzle. Far trickier than China's IQ which I think I've basically figured out (101-102 today; 106-108 genetic ceiling). The PISA-adjusted IQ of India - as extrapolated from the states of Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh, which are relatively rich and are reputed to have good school systems...
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    I agree, the problem with these test is that, Indian education system is in English. We are given education in English while our brain works in Hindi. Myself, I found that when I read numbers in Hindi my brain works fast while on the other end when I took them in English, it slow downs. Also, in lectures (in English) my brain shutdown after sometime even when I am excited about the lecture. If the lecture is in Hindi, my brain never felt sleepy. Also quota system is the problem of resulting in lower IQ. Earlier you will find mostly all the students were having high IQ, but it has fallen these days due to quota. I have worked with different countries students and I can tell you Indian student IQ is not low. They are similar to other students and so do other students.. IQ is just a definition. It is the initial training which makes difference, if Indian politicians give me just one chance (for 20 years). IQ has nothing to do with genetics, you can find that many kids of noble prize winners were born with even low IQ. I can produce a breed of students having IQ of average 100. Indian training is the problem, as we are just following the training system of Britishers, who intelligently used a system which will produce a stupid intelligent workers.

    Hindi is spoken by only 30% of the population of India as their mother tongue. Only English has enabled Vish to be a participant of this forum.This is the dilemma of India. When you try to homogenize a diverse society only the preadvantaged miniscule populations gain to the disadvantage of the rest of the traditionally marginalized sections of society. Another anomaly is forgetting the Sumerian, Harappan, Tamil, ASI genetic linguistic and historical contributions to Indian Subcontinental society. After all, all modern Indians are a mixture of ASI and ANI genes. If Vish subjects himself to a genome mapping he will find that the major contributor to his genesis are derived from ASI Dravidian genes, though he may be speaking an Indo Europeon Language now. English though another Indo European Language is favourably servicing the entire subcontinent in all scientific and other inclusive frontiers without discrimination.
    Discrimination in thesociety is the bane of India. Let us be pragmatic.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Tang says:

    “China do not acknowledge Nobel Prizes so they are not often selected for it either. ”

    Very smart Mr Tang. China doesn’t recognise nobel prizes. It doesn’t recognise international borders (Mc Mohan Line, Japan, Philippines, Bhutan, Vietnam, South Asian Sea), It doesn’t recognise sovereignty of other nations (Tibet, et all) . Good excuse for your rogue behaviour.

    Your IQ is amply shown by the quality of your friends. Every rogue and rascal in this world has China as its best friend (Pakistan, North Korea, Pol Pot….). Birds of the same feather flock together. Pakistan has gifted you 5000 sq km of totally barren and completely useless land and you have gifted them rusty weapons which don’t fire.

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  • “anon says:
    August 12, 2014 at 8:48 am

    Dear Anatoly, While I don’t want to get involved in any caste discussion, I won’t agree that any particular caste has higher
    IQ. Infact caste groups Kayastha and Khatri have occupied more intellectually demanding positions over a very long periods of time (a timeline of 3500 years) and even now.

    Brahmins are distinguished from other castes by the presence of j2 y chromosome (@ 20- 25%, a proof of middle eastern origins). Brahmins are thus similar to Jews (but middle eastern Shephardic jews and not Asheknazi), so they must have a similar IQ in 80s(may be middle 80s, Indian IQ being in the same range). The untouchables(lowest caste) of India are of pure Aryan decent and are the most heavily R1a1 group in India (R1a1 ~ 70%) even after a three thousand year of existence.”

    What rubbish, what proof do you have that we Brahmins have Arab J haplogroup, Indeed Brahmins have greater amount of R1a common among Slavic European populations. Bengali Brahmins have the highest frequency of R1a. Even Kokanastha Chitpavan Brahmins of Konkan, the same people who made up the Peshwas who ran the Mighty hindu maratha Empire have more R1a. Where did you get J from?

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  • fuck you anatoli shithead

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  • FYI: Chinese have won 11 Nobel prizes, and 8 of them in Science; 6 in Physics and two in Chemistry.

    P.S.: Of course Indians may have won another 3 Nobel if Sir J.C. Bose, Meghnad Saha and S.N. Bose were given their Nobel dues, but that’s a different story.

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  • Hello Indianswon,

    Well indeed Tamils have won many Nobel Prizes but you are misinformed: China have won 11 Nobel Prizes till date.

    China do not acknowledge Nobel Prizes so they are not often selected for it either. Still they have won it in science. Note also that they have their own Nobel equivalent.

    Also Note that many Chinese immigrants and Hong Kongers have won more Nobel Prizes than even poor Tamils can even dream about.

    Indians, please don’t be ignorant rant. Be informed. Acknowledge the truth.This is the age of Information.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_Nobel_laureates

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  • anon • Disclaimer says:

    “Brahmins occupy a lot of the intellectually demanding positions……………………A lot of the (super high IQ) US Indian immigrants appear to be Brahmins.”

    Dear Anatoly, While I don’t want to get involved in any caste discussion, I won’t agree that any particular caste has higher
    IQ. Infact caste groups Kayastha and Khatri have occupied more intellectually demanding positions over a very long periods of time (a timeline of 3500 years) and even now.

    Brahmins are distinguished from other castes by the presence of j2 y chromosome (@ 20- 25%, a proof of middle eastern origins). Brahmins are thus similar to Jews (but middle eastern Shephardic jews and not Asheknazi), so they must have a similar IQ in 80s(may be middle 80s, Indian IQ being in the same range). The untouchables(lowest caste) of India are of pure Aryan decent and are the most heavily R1a1 group in India (R1a1 ~ 70%) even after a three thousand year of existence.

    Three thousand two hundred sixty years ago, when Moses was alive and Helen of Troy was a few decades away from birth, a Brahmin King abducted a Jain Nun(an Indian religion), a scythian(Saka) king (Pali name – Dimitt, probably named demeter or Demetrues) from very very far off land had to invade and free her. Thereafter scythians settled in India. Unable to merge into Indian society, they became untouchables (most menial ). All other invading Aryan tribes, Assyrian, Hun, Greek(Ionian), abisare, Parthian and probably some Amorites too became untouchables once their power waned off, but the untouchable group in most menial positions is of scythian origin and genetic and some cultural elements can still be observed. Ironically Aryans became untouchables in the country in which they originated in a remote past.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    * I am most emphatically not saying what you are saying I am saying. A large part of the post was indeed about how India manages to achieve great intellectual feats both in the past (Mahabharata/Ramayana, the zero, Buddhism) and present (nuclear subs, space, etc) but have such a bizarrely low IQ in general. My postulate is that Indian castes, especially the Brahmans relative to the rest of the population, are somewhat genetically distinct, and that Brahmans have faced the same selection pressures for intelligence as Ashkenazi Jews.

    This theory is supported by the vast over-representation of Indians with Brahman family names in tabulations of Indian achievement, as well as historical evidence that inequality was higher in India than in China or Western Europe in the Early Modern period when on objective factors it should actually been lower.

    * As I noted in the post, I do not take the PISA results as Gospel. In fact I consider India's current IQ to be in the low 80's (as per intelligence) as opposed to 75 (as per the PISA tests).

    * "Isn’t it Steve Sailer who keeps saying that finding a representative average in India is hellishly difficult due to India’s genetic+environmental diversity?" Yes, it is. Hence what I wrote in the first two sentences of this post. :)

    * Aren't field laborers Shudra, not untouchables?

    * I think a genetic Indian IQ potential in the mid-90's as plausible as one in the low-90's. However I doubt it is in the high 90's, and I am almost positive that it is under 100.

    That's what all the (necessarily back of the envelope) estimates converge on (1, 2, 3).

    I am not under the impression that you fundamentally disagree with this. However you free to write a guest post outlying your own arguments what whatever you estimate the average Indian IQ potential to be. I will be happy to read and publish it.

    * Incidentally, one aspect I find praiseworthy among Indian commentators is that they tend to be mature about HBD discussions. That is unlike the Han/East Asian supremacists who boast about their high IQ's even though it doesn't help them get laid, nor are they prone to many of the victimization narratives / racism accusations that seem to characterize Black responses to HBD/intelligence theory.

    Couldn’t it really be that when you increase the level of education amongst Indians, they simply perform far better than they do otherwise?

    It seems silly to compare groups like Brahmins with those at the lower rungs of Indian society; for the former have a far longer history of being literate compared with the latter [newly-rising groups]. This is surely compounded by social dimensions whereby negative discrimination to “moving up the ladder” made it difficult for people from extreme poverty to match the prolific success of the upper-castes.

    A better study would analyse the backgrounds of children from poorer sub-sections of Indian society, whose parents have immigrated to more developed Western nations, and see how much they have _improved in terms of educational structure/IQ_. That would tell us more about the _potential_ IQ [or educational achievement].

    It’s like comparing a rural Congolese with a Swiss from a family of surgeons. Or even their children. We would have to put them in equal circumstances and wait for a few generations to see if the Congolese children could catch up [tracking how rapidly they are _improving_ at all times]. That is a better test.

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  • @Ryan G.
    (Some general thoughts:) Mr. Karlin, while I agree that the Brahmins (~5% of India's pop.) have a very high average IQ, I don't quite think that the Indian masses are quite as dull as you propose. You claim that the Indians in UK have an average IQ a half standard deviation below Whites, but Indians in Britain outperform Whites on most indicators of social and economic wellbeing. You claim that most Indians in UK are 'Patels', and that accounts for their supposedly 'poor' performance. Not quite: a large chunk are Jatt Sikhs (i.e. agricultural laborers), Ismailis, and Hindu Bengalis, plus Indian immigrants from E. Africa. Most of the Indians that migrated to Britain were poorer immigrants that came to do factory work or below. In fact, Lynn himself has stated multiple times that Indians there have average IQ's in the high 90's.

    Indians in Mauritius and Trinidad are largely descended from plantation laborers, yet, based on the PISA scores of those countries, this would strongly imply an IQ in the early 90's (about 93) for these two groups (keeping in mind that Trinidad is 40% black, plus 20% Mulatto, Mauritius is ~29% Black- and this probably depresses the scores of these two islands greatly). This may not sound plentiful, but keep in mind that a large percentage (if not an outright majority) of the Indians in these countries are descended from field laborers taken from India's downtrodden Untouchable castes (many being taken from India's most backward regions, such as Bihar), who comprise ~15% of India's population. If a couple of generations of good diet and OK education can raise the average IQ's of such highly downtrodden peoples to Southern European levels, then I wouldn't be quick to dismiss the masses of Indians.

    Not quite: a large chunk are Jatt Sikhs (i.e. agricultural laborers), Ismailis, and Hindu Bengalis, plus Indian immigrants from E. Africa.

    A vanishingly small portion of Indians in the UK are of Ismaili or Hindu Bengali extraction.

    The overwhelming majority of Indian immigrants in the UK are of Punjabi & Gujarati ethnicity.

    Also, while Bihar is an economically “backward” state, schoolchildren there perform better than many economically progressive states [e.g. Tamil Nadu]:

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/patna/Bihar-kids-fare-better-than-their-ilk-elsewhere/articleshow/1727167.cms?referral=PM

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I found a very interesting article which co-relates stress and malnuturition to intelligence or there lack of…

    http://www.businessinsider.com/poverty-effect-on-intelligence-2013-8

    Makes sense, no? – The brain is too busy trying to survive and doesn’t have enough reserves for designig an airplane. Generations of insecurity translates into physical alteration (epigenetics: http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/inheritance/) of one’s DNA and before you realize you have an entire population exhibiting that trait. The good news is that it is reversable but make take a few of generations.

    While I am at it, Greece and Romans have a rich history. We all grew up reading stories of their kings conquiering every piece of land they had their sight on…well almost. Their contributions to science, medicine, engineering, philosophy have been the back bone of our progress yet they face a dire financial crisis today and at a verge of collapse. Wonder what happened there.

    Again, we should stop looking at the world in fragments. We would be much happier and perhaps make a happier society.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Interesting discussion until Mr. Khan decided to chime in with his India bashing idealogies, and equally foolish guy who thought was giving Mr Khan a befitting reply. Mr egp felt left out and decided to join the little verbal war with his two cents, literally, appearing slightly more intelligent than a baboon.

    Every country has a fare share of so called “elites”, and the “rest”. There are people who like to invent, people who like to lead the inventors, people who like to follow, the creative types, yada yada yada. You will find these categories in every country irrespective of their religion or ethnicities. No one is better than the other. I have seen the east and the west and have spent considerable amount of time in both the places so trust me when I write this: In general people are idiots driven by nothing more than their primal instincts, even the so called “calm and rational thinkers”. We have reached a point in time where unless we find cleaner and abundant resource to sustain, we will all be drowning in our piss and shit along with our “superior intelligence”. Work together and we can all be happy….sure then we can continue with pissing contest. Intelligence and compassion go hand in hand. Intelligence without compassion is hollow and a burden on the society and man-kind, polluting and consuming eveything in sight under pretext of progress.

    And as far as the IQ goes, Einstein once said “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”, unless of course y’all think was an idiot. Give people a chance to show their real talent and with our combined efforts we can uplift the man-kind.

    Alright, I am now ready to be plastered by your ignorance. Go ahead, insult me!

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    This seemed a good discussion on abilities and intelligence of People who are genetically Indian. Some of the above commenters seem to have an emotional response to the author who is perhaps a journalist or social scientist. The commenters should have given a calm and rational answer or insight they can provide. Having been to some parts of Europe and usa and after carefully observing those peoples, I can state that Food, geography and cultural history shaped the IQ and intelligence of people in India and some parts of Asia. Europeans had access to meat and milk which helped them to develop better brains than Indians who are somewhat less evolved ,Most of Indians (90% or so, this includes Sikh, patel,jain,BC,OBC, SC, ST ) are somewhere in between African and Central European in abilities as a result the infrastructure in India is somewhere in between Africa and Europe. However, with access to education and knowledge everybody thinks that they are intelligent than other countries even though the results - Engineered products, goods, pharmaceuticals are inferior and sloppy at best . I think Indians need to evolve further to be able to do complex math, engineering, research in science, arts, music . At the moment, there is no indigenous airplane, semiconductor company, Automotive, Infrastructure, Engineering industry which is better than those in Europe or North America. Most of the knowledge and skills required to make complex things like trains, boats, aircrafts- domestic and military, automobiles is from other countries in Europe. This knowledge didn't originate in India even though there seems to be some history of Indians involved in math, metallurgy, crafts. This knowledge is copied or leased from other countries . If Indians were so intelligent, then they don't need outside help which should be the logical question they should ask themselves. There seem to very few intelligent people at less than 10% who are the thinkers, inventors , engineers, doctors , the rest were quickly populated into these professions to satisfy shortage in these fields. As a result there are more sloppy, lazy people in India than in other countries. Perhaps it is very late to see all this but Indians should think , be creative and invent before doing mundane things like sex, watching TV, listening to songs , radio. Most Indians memorize knowledge and copy products, re-invent things in India which were done more than a decade or two ago in other countries and then claim these inventions as theirs. This is not a true indicator or Intelligence no matter what these iq tests and university degrees say. The problems seem to be in approach to solve problems .Technique is not important in getting things right as its in central Europe. More and more Indians , Chinese seem to emulate or imitate Jews who are somehow in the background of most industries but never do the actual work which is delegated to Germans, British, French, Danish, Dutch; these are the actual brains which built the world today with newer technologies. Problems continue to loom India as they don't want to work on future than worry about past and having that sense of superiority of inventions in ancient world. You must have heard how ancient Indians invented everything in the world today which includes numerals 0-9 while Europeans were barbarians living in caves 3000 years ago and north America was occupied by a primitive people called Mayans and Aztecs. The above story is repeated everything you question the abilities of Indian people. There should be more rational and objective reasons why some cultures are better than others.

    The Tamil Brahmins are only 2 million in numbers but have won more Nobel prizes in Physics and Chemistry than China, even though Chinese infrastructure is better than Indian infrastructure, your a fool, some brains are more compatible for esoteric thought, some are compatible for mechanical purposes, some are artistic and creative, while some have a combination of both. The Chinese in the past used bamboo for natural gas reserves, while Indians started the concept of zero, which points to more esoteric mindsets, the Mayan calender to even today is considered to be just as accurate as a computer generated calendar. An Indian American child just last year won a Scholastic Science Olympiad competition by figuring out a way to charge cell phones in 20 seconds, companies like Google are trying to hire the kid at this very moment. The USB, PGB, and PCI Express, were developed by computer architect Ajay Bhatt, who also innovated in the fields of Platform Power Management, and also help with various chip improvements and had 32 patents has an esoteric mindset too. The Agni 6 missile is the first intercontinental missile to have an extra 20% distance with the same amount of fuel, if launched from India, every country that falls through the Middle East to the state of California is in its range, and the other scientist around the world are still trying to figure out why. The Chinese and Japanese are far from copycats too, you whites are just jealous that they have surpassed you, so you started some notion that they have less creativity. If you ever seen Japanese anime and Manga, and the philosophies of Confucisionism, you would know how much bs your talking . Europeans can’t take the fact that their civilizations survive through means of war, they can’t maintain and innovate, the Roman Empire was the closest at 1,200 years, every other European civilization falls within 100 -400 years, while the Chinese have had civilizations for 5,000 years and the Indians have had 20% of the world’s GDP during the Mauryan Empire, the rise of China and India isn’t new, its just how the world was structured ever since the ancient days, they’re just coming back again, Europeans have just been a fluke for the last 400 years because of their already worn out industrial revolution, which doesn’t even have any significant leverage nowadays, with already stuff like smart cities being in designed in India, go look up GIFT City on Google. Wake up white boy its the 21st century, your invention of mayonnaise is worn out and people have already been searching for more Helium 3 in space for interstellar space travel in other countries. Your arrogance will just leave you in the dust or conquered sooner or later, America is already starting to look more like Detroit, the British Empire nowadays is considered a laughing stock to China and India, with just a couple of ballistic missile finishing that landmass in a second.

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  • Most of the indians who got an iq of 112 in the united states are not brahmins but belong to other upper castes too. Only a few of them are brahmins.

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  • @rec1man
    75% of the Indian population gets affirmative action quota in India and is genetically low IQ
    25% of the Indian population is upper caste and higher IQ and does not get quota
    Most of the upper caste population has Y-DNA = R1A = Russian / Slavic

    In North India there are 3 levels of quota, each quota level corresponding to a different IQ level
    In North India Upper caste > Other Backward Caste > Dalit - Untouchable - Tribal

    In South India, there are 4 levels of quota
    Brahmin > Dravidian Backward Caste > Dravidian Most Backward caste > Dalit-Untouchable-Tribal

    Upper castes and Brahmins dont get quota. In North India, upper castes and Brahmins are genetically the same of Aryan origin. In South India, the only Aryan origin caste is Brahmin
    The others are dravidian

    5% of the Indian population is of Oriental race and they dont have a high IQ

    Next vegetarianism = Most upper castes, the higher IQ segment is vegetarian
    The lower castes are non-vegetarian and have lower IQ.

    Jains are a 100% vegetarian merchant caste and they have beaten the Jews in the diamond trade, even in Tel Aviv

    The world chess champion Vish Anand comes from a vegetarian brahmin family

    In India, a non-vegetarian person is likely a low IQ affirmative action caste
    You can check a persons caste rank by simply asking whether they are vegetarian, which implies higher caste

    In the Indian Manhattan project team of 18, of which 15 were brahmin and 3 merchants

    Each Indian diaspora is different and has a different caste blend and a different IQ
    The lowest level IQ diaspora is the agricultural laborer , 50% Shudra, 50% untouchable
    This forms about 95% of the Indian population in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Trinidad, Guyana etc

    The Patels and Sikhs are Upper-Shudra / Vaishya and this is 80% of the diaspora in UK
    In UK, they outperform whites academically and per Lynn , in the 2nd generation, measured and IQ of 97

    In the USA, 60% of the Indian diaspora is upper caste, and 40% from middle-level castes like Patels and Sikhs

    And except brahmins and vysyas, all upper castes in both north and south eat meat. But the lowest castes in north and south are very malnourished even though they eat meat,,,because meat is very expensive in india.

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  • @rec1man
    75% of the Indian population gets affirmative action quota in India and is genetically low IQ
    25% of the Indian population is upper caste and higher IQ and does not get quota
    Most of the upper caste population has Y-DNA = R1A = Russian / Slavic

    In North India there are 3 levels of quota, each quota level corresponding to a different IQ level
    In North India Upper caste > Other Backward Caste > Dalit - Untouchable - Tribal

    In South India, there are 4 levels of quota
    Brahmin > Dravidian Backward Caste > Dravidian Most Backward caste > Dalit-Untouchable-Tribal

    Upper castes and Brahmins dont get quota. In North India, upper castes and Brahmins are genetically the same of Aryan origin. In South India, the only Aryan origin caste is Brahmin
    The others are dravidian

    5% of the Indian population is of Oriental race and they dont have a high IQ

    Next vegetarianism = Most upper castes, the higher IQ segment is vegetarian
    The lower castes are non-vegetarian and have lower IQ.

    Jains are a 100% vegetarian merchant caste and they have beaten the Jews in the diamond trade, even in Tel Aviv

    The world chess champion Vish Anand comes from a vegetarian brahmin family

    In India, a non-vegetarian person is likely a low IQ affirmative action caste
    You can check a persons caste rank by simply asking whether they are vegetarian, which implies higher caste

    In the Indian Manhattan project team of 18, of which 15 were brahmin and 3 merchants

    Each Indian diaspora is different and has a different caste blend and a different IQ
    The lowest level IQ diaspora is the agricultural laborer , 50% Shudra, 50% untouchable
    This forms about 95% of the Indian population in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Trinidad, Guyana etc

    The Patels and Sikhs are Upper-Shudra / Vaishya and this is 80% of the diaspora in UK
    In UK, they outperform whites academically and per Lynn , in the 2nd generation, measured and IQ of 97

    In the USA, 60% of the Indian diaspora is upper caste, and 40% from middle-level castes like Patels and Sikhs

    In south india, some backward casts are fair skinned too…..padmashalis, raju’s etc. And one upper/forward caste…vysya are darkskinned.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says: • Website

    one riddle here is why the low caste converts to Christianity and Islam do so so well in India (APJ Abul Kalam, A R Rehman etc.)and high literacy and standards of living in Kerela, Goa, NE States like Mizoram, Manipur etc. I think that the social network resources they get after conversion helps them succeed. They did not have low IQ, but being outcatses their resources were highly limited which depressed their success. Just my cents

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  • @Saul
    Be advised that this poster rec1man is a south indian brahmin supremacist who is notorious for making up data with the sole intent of making brahmins look like super geniuses.

    Read also Robert Sapolsky on epigenetics and watch him on youtube. Many societies allow bad epigeneticall memes without to support educational changes and family lessons [ways to behave to children, teached parents in programs statistically rise higher iq children]

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  • It’s not that difficult. They come here, live in a superior culture built by white-men, and improve themselves. They are what the Fuhrer would have called cultural-sustaining peoples. They can’t invent a toilet by themselves, but they won’t destroy yours either. Unlike the Negroids, for example. Anyone that has a problem with anything that I have said, move to India or East St. Louis.

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  • Indian ‘s success in US is mainly because of their English advantage, Chinese just started to learn English 30 years ago while Indians started 300 years ago . They fit in US corporation culture very well – very good at trash talks …

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    * I am most emphatically not saying what you are saying I am saying. A large part of the post was indeed about how India manages to achieve great intellectual feats both in the past (Mahabharata/Ramayana, the zero, Buddhism) and present (nuclear subs, space, etc) but have such a bizarrely low IQ in general. My postulate is that Indian castes, especially the Brahmans relative to the rest of the population, are somewhat genetically distinct, and that Brahmans have faced the same selection pressures for intelligence as Ashkenazi Jews.

    This theory is supported by the vast over-representation of Indians with Brahman family names in tabulations of Indian achievement, as well as historical evidence that inequality was higher in India than in China or Western Europe in the Early Modern period when on objective factors it should actually been lower.

    * As I noted in the post, I do not take the PISA results as Gospel. In fact I consider India's current IQ to be in the low 80's (as per intelligence) as opposed to 75 (as per the PISA tests).

    * "Isn’t it Steve Sailer who keeps saying that finding a representative average in India is hellishly difficult due to India’s genetic+environmental diversity?" Yes, it is. Hence what I wrote in the first two sentences of this post. :)

    * Aren't field laborers Shudra, not untouchables?

    * I think a genetic Indian IQ potential in the mid-90's as plausible as one in the low-90's. However I doubt it is in the high 90's, and I am almost positive that it is under 100.

    That's what all the (necessarily back of the envelope) estimates converge on (1, 2, 3).

    I am not under the impression that you fundamentally disagree with this. However you free to write a guest post outlying your own arguments what whatever you estimate the average Indian IQ potential to be. I will be happy to read and publish it.

    * Incidentally, one aspect I find praiseworthy among Indian commentators is that they tend to be mature about HBD discussions. That is unlike the Han/East Asian supremacists who boast about their high IQ's even though it doesn't help them get laid, nor are they prone to many of the victimization narratives / racism accusations that seem to characterize Black responses to HBD/intelligence theory.

    How was the IQ test administered? Again no information on sample size or anything

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  • What were the parameters of the IQ test. Was it done along homogenous lines of socioeconomic class excluding all confounding outliers?

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  • @Ryan G.
    (Some general thoughts:) Mr. Karlin, while I agree that the Brahmins (~5% of India's pop.) have a very high average IQ, I don't quite think that the Indian masses are quite as dull as you propose. You claim that the Indians in UK have an average IQ a half standard deviation below Whites, but Indians in Britain outperform Whites on most indicators of social and economic wellbeing. You claim that most Indians in UK are 'Patels', and that accounts for their supposedly 'poor' performance. Not quite: a large chunk are Jatt Sikhs (i.e. agricultural laborers), Ismailis, and Hindu Bengalis, plus Indian immigrants from E. Africa. Most of the Indians that migrated to Britain were poorer immigrants that came to do factory work or below. In fact, Lynn himself has stated multiple times that Indians there have average IQ's in the high 90's.

    Indians in Mauritius and Trinidad are largely descended from plantation laborers, yet, based on the PISA scores of those countries, this would strongly imply an IQ in the early 90's (about 93) for these two groups (keeping in mind that Trinidad is 40% black, plus 20% Mulatto, Mauritius is ~29% Black- and this probably depresses the scores of these two islands greatly). This may not sound plentiful, but keep in mind that a large percentage (if not an outright majority) of the Indians in these countries are descended from field laborers taken from India's downtrodden Untouchable castes (many being taken from India's most backward regions, such as Bihar), who comprise ~15% of India's population. If a couple of generations of good diet and OK education can raise the average IQ's of such highly downtrodden peoples to Southern European levels, then I wouldn't be quick to dismiss the masses of Indians.

    There are barely any Ismailis in the UK, the Indian Muslim population in the UK is about 140,000 , in which barely 30,000 are Ismailis, that’s not enough to change the iq of Indians at all.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    This seemed a good discussion on abilities and intelligence of People who are genetically Indian. Some of the above commenters seem to have an emotional response to the author who is perhaps a journalist or social scientist. The commenters should have given a calm and rational answer or insight they can provide. Having been to some parts of Europe and usa and after carefully observing those peoples, I can state that Food, geography and cultural history shaped the IQ and intelligence of people in India and some parts of Asia. Europeans had access to meat and milk which helped them to develop better brains than Indians who are somewhat less evolved ,Most of Indians (90% or so, this includes Sikh, patel,jain,BC,OBC, SC, ST ) are somewhere in between African and Central European in abilities as a result the infrastructure in India is somewhere in between Africa and Europe. However, with access to education and knowledge everybody thinks that they are intelligent than other countries even though the results – Engineered products, goods, pharmaceuticals are inferior and sloppy at best . I think Indians need to evolve further to be able to do complex math, engineering, research in science, arts, music . At the moment, there is no indigenous airplane, semiconductor company, Automotive, Infrastructure, Engineering industry which is better than those in Europe or North America. Most of the knowledge and skills required to make complex things like trains, boats, aircrafts- domestic and military, automobiles is from other countries in Europe. This knowledge didn’t originate in India even though there seems to be some history of Indians involved in math, metallurgy, crafts. This knowledge is copied or leased from other countries . If Indians were so intelligent, then they don’t need outside help which should be the logical question they should ask themselves. There seem to very few intelligent people at less than 10% who are the thinkers, inventors , engineers, doctors , the rest were quickly populated into these professions to satisfy shortage in these fields. As a result there are more sloppy, lazy people in India than in other countries. Perhaps it is very late to see all this but Indians should think , be creative and invent before doing mundane things like sex, watching TV, listening to songs , radio. Most Indians memorize knowledge and copy products, re-invent things in India which were done more than a decade or two ago in other countries and then claim these inventions as theirs. This is not a true indicator or Intelligence no matter what these iq tests and university degrees say. The problems seem to be in approach to solve problems .Technique is not important in getting things right as its in central Europe. More and more Indians , Chinese seem to emulate or imitate Jews who are somehow in the background of most industries but never do the actual work which is delegated to Germans, British, French, Danish, Dutch; these are the actual brains which built the world today with newer technologies. Problems continue to loom India as they don’t want to work on future than worry about past and having that sense of superiority of inventions in ancient world. You must have heard how ancient Indians invented everything in the world today which includes numerals 0-9 while Europeans were barbarians living in caves 3000 years ago and north America was occupied by a primitive people called Mayans and Aztecs. The above story is repeated everything you question the abilities of Indian people. There should be more rational and objective reasons why some cultures are better than others.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The Tamil Brahmins are only 2 million in numbers but have won more Nobel prizes in Physics and Chemistry than China, even though Chinese infrastructure is better than Indian infrastructure, your a fool, some brains are more compatible for esoteric thought, some are compatible for mechanical purposes, some are artistic and creative, while some have a combination of both. The Chinese in the past used bamboo for natural gas reserves, while Indians started the concept of zero, which points to more esoteric mindsets, the Mayan calender to even today is considered to be just as accurate as a computer generated calendar. An Indian American child just last year won a Scholastic Science Olympiad competition by figuring out a way to charge cell phones in 20 seconds, companies like Google are trying to hire the kid at this very moment. The USB, PGB, and PCI Express, were developed by computer architect Ajay Bhatt, who also innovated in the fields of Platform Power Management, and also help with various chip improvements and had 32 patents has an esoteric mindset too. The Agni 6 missile is the first intercontinental missile to have an extra 20% distance with the same amount of fuel, if launched from India, every country that falls through the Middle East to the state of California is in its range, and the other scientist around the world are still trying to figure out why. The Chinese and Japanese are far from copycats too, you whites are just jealous that they have surpassed you, so you started some notion that they have less creativity. If you ever seen Japanese anime and Manga, and the philosophies of Confucisionism, you would know how much bs your talking . Europeans can't take the fact that their civilizations survive through means of war, they can't maintain and innovate, the Roman Empire was the closest at 1,200 years, every other European civilization falls within 100 -400 years, while the Chinese have had civilizations for 5,000 years and the Indians have had 20% of the world's GDP during the Mauryan Empire, the rise of China and India isn't new, its just how the world was structured ever since the ancient days, they're just coming back again, Europeans have just been a fluke for the last 400 years because of their already worn out industrial revolution, which doesn't even have any significant leverage nowadays, with already stuff like smart cities being in designed in India, go look up GIFT City on Google. Wake up white boy its the 21st century, your invention of mayonnaise is worn out and people have already been searching for more Helium 3 in space for interstellar space travel in other countries. Your arrogance will just leave you in the dust or conquered sooner or later, America is already starting to look more like Detroit, the British Empire nowadays is considered a laughing stock to China and India, with just a couple of ballistic missile finishing that landmass in a second.
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  • My post on Indian IQ (max potential is low to mid 90's) spawned an interesting analysis by commentator rec1man. It is not very well organized but he does have a ton of useful information that deserves to be highlighted. It's reprinted in full below interspersed with occasional commentary by myself: 75% of the Indian population...
  • This guy Anatoly Carlin and the commentators here are very racist. It has been proven that IQ just like any thing in nature follows a normal distribution. And this normal distribution in itself is a rule which is followed everywhere in nature. This means that all human populations regard less of where they live should follow the same normal distribution IQ range. This is because biologically we are still homo sapiens. If an Egyptian jumps in a time machine and pops up in present day NYC, after a few weeks or months of education, he will act as a normal rational human being in the so called modern society. Trying to measure IQ of countries the size of India or China is an exercise in futility. The sample will never be random enough to give accurate results. Also IQ alone does not determine the success or failures of societies. India has had it’s golden age and periods of declines. Growth or progress is never linear in nature but cyclic.

    Read this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#Validity_of_race_and_IQ

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  • @rec1man
    In International Math Olympiad, India performs better than Israel, Norway and many European countries
    But all these people are from the top 20% castes

    http://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

    In 2012, Math olympiad, India was ranked #11

    Korea = #1
    China = #2
    USA = #3
    Russia = #4
    Canada = #5
    Thailand = #5
    Singapore = #7
    Iran = #8
    Vietnam = #9
    Rumania = #10
    India = #11

    At the International Math Olympiad, India outscored every white country except
    USA, Russia, Canada, Iran and Rumania
    The USA and Canada and Thailand and Singapore team actually has Chinese members

    In terms of actual white countries that performed better than India was Iran, Rumania and Russia

    Rumania and Russia have Paternal Y-DNA = R1A, same as upper caste Indians

    LOL. Small underdeveloped country like Vietnam has 9 medals ! ??????????

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  • The question of Indian IQ is a big puzzle. Far trickier than China's IQ which I think I've basically figured out (101-102 today; 106-108 genetic ceiling). The PISA-adjusted IQ of India - as extrapolated from the states of Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh, which are relatively rich and are reputed to have good school systems...
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says: • Website

    Everything written here about Hinduism appears to be written by a rotten Christian mind. We all know that Christians and Muslims consider themselves exclusive and here is one more piece of shit to justify that. Fuckers first learn about the Hindu Civilization and then comment over it. Do not dare to comment with half knowledge ever. I will not try to counter any shit written above because discussions happen when the other side possess a thing called as BRAIN and you Chirstian shitters are a disgrace to Jesus Christ and nothing else.

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  • My post on Indian IQ (max potential is low to mid 90's) spawned an interesting analysis by commentator rec1man. It is not very well organized but he does have a ton of useful information that deserves to be highlighted. It's reprinted in full below interspersed with occasional commentary by myself: 75% of the Indian population...
  • @scythian
    Just a few things:

    It is true that that cities in India are nowhere near as functional and advanced as those in Europe or the West, but I have travelled in the North Indian countryside. Villages with a high Brahmin population is (percentage wise) tend to be better kept and better looking. I once went to a village in Saharanpur, in Northern India, where nearly all the inhabitants were Tyagi Brahmins, a subcaste of Brahmins who have taken to agriculture and have become relatively prosperous. The houses were well built, the lanes were clean and there was a lot of greenery. So you do have Brahmin dominated areas , which are quite well tended,. Similiarly in South India, one has Brahmin villages known as Agraharam, where the houses are well built, and the streets are well planned. These are not cities though, just villages and settlements, but they are by all standards genteel..

    Simla is a town where more than thirty percent of the population are Brahmins , and it is quite pleasant, even though a bit overcrowded.

    Bombay was never built by Brahmins, and was never really governed by Brahmins . Most of the slums in India are populated by Dalits and Lower Class Muslims.so the Slumdog Millionare example does not stick.

    The point is this. In both rural India, and in cities, Brahmins, along with the Merchant Castes, and Landowning Dominant Castes such as Jats, Gujjars, Rajputs and Ahirs in Northern India, and Nairs and Gowdas in Southern India whenever they can live a segregated life from the 75% of the population who dod not belong to these categories. That is perhaps why villages in India where the Brahmin population is low have decrepit look. Even in the Gangetic plain, which i extremely backward, , the ten per cent Brahmin minority are relatively well off an often lead a segregated life. And Uttar Pradesh has been ruled and dominated by Chief Misiter from the Backward Castes and Dalits.
    Brahmins from this state who leave often occupy highly skilled white collar positions in both the public and private sector.

    As for cities, there is not a single Urban area where Brahmins have ever been the majority. Villages yes, , and few I have seen are as I said better built, but Bombay does not ahve a Brahmin majority. Varanasi also does not have a Brahmin majority. Doms and Muslim make up a far larger percentage of the population. Brahmins there live in their segregated neighbourhood, though I d not how those neighbourhoods look like.

    Also in terms of the Brahmin population, it is quite hard to guess, what the actual population is, as no census has been done, and it may not same ratio to the whole Indian population today as it was in in 1931(when the last caste census was taken), as different castes grow at different rates. I would hazard that the Brahmin population growth would be lower. In fact I read somewhere that a certain Brahmin sub caste or tribe, the Chitrapur Saraswat Brahmins have a population that is only 21,000, and is rapidly declining, in similiar fashion to the Parsis. the reason why data existed for this community is because they have their own community organisation which collects it. Like the Parsis, they are well educated and quite affluent. I would suppose that such demographic characteristics would apply to groups such as the Bengali Brahmin and Tamil Brahmin.

    You’ve precisely explained why caste segregation is so important to higher caste hindus. Low castes and dalits are a source of pollution,spiritually,physically and biologically.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The whole thread is pretty racist.For their population, Tamil Brahmin have more Nobel Laureates than most other ethnic groups including Jews. Achievements also reflect the social, political and economic scenario of the country, which in Inda has been depresed for the last 1000 years. Brahmins/ Upper caste Hindus can beat any Russian, Slav, European or Chinese hollow which is why you see so many Indian Fortune 1000 CEO’s despite all pervasive racism and jealousy form all other ethnic groups including Chinese and WHites. The difference is that I can take on any Chinese/ European in both IQ and am ahead on social/EQ skills also.

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  • The question of Indian IQ is a big puzzle. Far trickier than China's IQ which I think I've basically figured out (101-102 today; 106-108 genetic ceiling). The PISA-adjusted IQ of India - as extrapolated from the states of Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh, which are relatively rich and are reputed to have good school systems...
  • @Indian
    Shame on you racist , you tell Christians dont discriminate then how did slave trade happened ? oh no all Hindu are evil only Christians are good?
    There is no genetic difference between the so called aryans and Non-aryans in India, how does you are going to answer that?
    Probably your IQ is just 10, At least try to respect other cultures.

    You’re living evidence of dismally low IQ. Please don’t migrate.

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  • @Khan
    The Tatas are Parsis, Premji is Muslim. Anyway, India has probably reached full potential because the vast majority of India is low IQ, only a little better than Sub-Saharan Africa. The worst thing the West did was to allow the corrupt, low IQ Indians in their countries. They are destroying the US, UK. And yes, it was the Jews that opened the floodgates. The standard of living in Pakistan and Bangladesh is better than India, where some 65% of the people shit in the open.

    Here is a bit about Bangladesh from Wiki:

    East Bengal - the eastern segment of Bengal - has been historically an important center of trade and commerce since at least the first millennium BCE.[15] The Ganges Delta provided advantages of a mild, almost tropical climate, fertile soil, ample water, and an abundance of fish, wildlife, and fruit.[15] The standard of living is believed to have been higher compared with other parts of South Asia.[15] As early as the thirteenth century, the region was developing as an agrarian economy.[15] The region was a junction on the south west silk route, and commercial centers emerged at several ancient and historical cities across the region. Under Mughal rule, the region flourished as the center of the worldwide muslin trade.[15] The British, however, on their arrival in the late eighteenth century, chose to develop Calcutta, now the capital city of West Bengal, as their commercial and administrative center in South Asia.

    A lot of accomplished Hindus were forcibly converted to Islam during centuries of Mughal rule or else were faced with death. Notable examples are Pandit Tansen, Nine jewels from the court of Akbar were all forcibly converted to Islam. When the Mughals conquered India they wiped off a large number of high ranking hindu warriors and noblemen and forcibly converted the rest. I do hope these issues are accounted for when such an article is written? India is very diverse and it is difficult to measure IQ across such a diverse population.

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  • @Anonymous
    explain this : Constitution of India was grafted by BR Ambedkar an untouchable who got the rare opportunity of getting education from good univ. thanks to the generosity of a Ksathriya landlord.

    APJ Kalam - former Indian president invented Indian Nuclear Delivery Systems and AR Rahman is one of the world's best musicians also known as Mozart of Madras. Asia's first Nobel Laureate was not a Brahmin and so was Gandhi. Sardar Patel was a Shudra and played a key role in getting India's independence and Narendra Modi is an untouchable and has transformed the face of his state making it one of the fastest developing regions on the planet. Many African countries are developing very rapidly for example Nigeria while Arabs. The thing is that people emulate what others in their brethren achieve , in case of West , the achievements of Britiain - a white christian country prompted others to follow. The reason why in present day and age the low caste converts to christianity progress much faster than their unfortunate Hindu or Sikh or Muslim cousins. The same reason why Muslim world over are backward irrespective of the race., many caucasian or fair skinned countries are Muslim and are a dismally deprived eg. Afganistan.

    Kalam and Rahman were both hindus who converted to Islam. Rahman is a first generation convert ans Kalam is a second generation convert.

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  • Shame on you racist , you tell Christians dont discriminate then how did slave trade happened ? oh no all Hindu are evil only Christians are good?
    There is no genetic difference between the so called aryans and Non-aryans in India, how does you are going to answer that?
    Probably your IQ is just 10, At least try to respect other cultures.

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    • Replies: @Raj
    You're living evidence of dismally low IQ. Please don't migrate.
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  • Yeah yeah Paki.Dream on.
    The break up expert is Pakistan.Remember 1971? Balochistan and NWFP are also going the same way.
    Muslim countries forming a trade block ROFL. Blind leading the blind.Best of luck.
    In any case Turkey has a preferential zero tarriff treaty with EU
    The GCC is a association of US backed puppets.
    Indonesia and Malaysia are members of the ASEAN.

    Other than these semi competent countries who else do we have?Pakistan Afghanistan,Nigeria,Sudan…LOL!

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  • In any case, India will likely break up within 2/3 decades.

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  • The Jews will do their best to ensure Muslim countries from having a large market for their products. This is why there is now a concerted effort on the part of Muslim countries around the world to build a global market amongst themselves (like a free-market area) so they can trade more openly and have lower tariff. This will bypass Jewish/American/Indian efforts to suppress Muslims.

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  • yeah right you inbred idiot.You have not refuted a single point I made logically so you fall back on your useless jews did this jews did that old wives tales.

    FACT 1 Upper caste Indians ,parsees and Jains are vastly more intelligent than south asian muslims(Pakistanis especiallly) measured on EVERY measurable index of intellectual attainment.It is Ironic you are using the example of Wipro(one of many Indian IT companies) to prove that muslims also can do something (I never said 100% of muslims are useless just that on average they are far behind) now and then.Why doesn’t Pakistan have a Wipro?Another Jewish conspiracy?

    FACT 2 India has a higher HDI than Pakistan and Bangladesh and the gap is increasing not decreasing.

    FACT 3 India has a proper industrial base Pakistan does not(The made in China atami bum doesn’t count)

    FACT 4 Muslims of South Asian origin have historically ZERO science and tech achievements(9th century to 19th century) in stark contrast to Hindu Brahmins and other upper castes.Name me one half decent south asian muslim scientist in the mughal empire surely there was no lack of resources.But then why nothing?Zero.Ziltch.

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  • The Tatas are Parsis, Premji is Muslim. Anyway, India has probably reached full potential because the vast majority of India is low IQ, only a little better than Sub-Saharan Africa. The worst thing the West did was to allow the corrupt, low IQ Indians in their countries. They are destroying the US, UK. And yes, it was the Jews that opened the floodgates. The standard of living in Pakistan and Bangladesh is better than India, where some 65% of the people shit in the open.

    Here is a bit about Bangladesh from Wiki:

    East Bengal – the eastern segment of Bengal – has been historically an important center of trade and commerce since at least the first millennium BCE.[15] The Ganges Delta provided advantages of a mild, almost tropical climate, fertile soil, ample water, and an abundance of fish, wildlife, and fruit.[15] The standard of living is believed to have been higher compared with other parts of South Asia.[15] As early as the thirteenth century, the region was developing as an agrarian economy.[15] The region was a junction on the south west silk route, and commercial centers emerged at several ancient and historical cities across the region. Under Mughal rule, the region flourished as the center of the worldwide muslin trade.[15] The British, however, on their arrival in the late eighteenth century, chose to develop Calcutta, now the capital city of West Bengal, as their commercial and administrative center in South Asia.

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    • Replies: @Maya
    A lot of accomplished Hindus were forcibly converted to Islam during centuries of Mughal rule or else were faced with death. Notable examples are Pandit Tansen, Nine jewels from the court of Akbar were all forcibly converted to Islam. When the Mughals conquered India they wiped off a large number of high ranking hindu warriors and noblemen and forcibly converted the rest. I do hope these issues are accounted for when such an article is written? India is very diverse and it is difficult to measure IQ across such a diverse population.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Khan
    Indians export crappy software and engineering products. They are ruining the US as we speak. It is a Jewish agenda to see as many low IQ foreigners get into positions of power in the US so the country gets ruined. The bulk ofgraduates turned out by universities across India are low quality, only good enough to work in call centres as tech support (which even a high school kid can be trained to do).

    Brahmins make up a tiny percentage of India. Lot of these Brahmins are not very bright anyway. The bulk of India is low IQ.

    yeah typical muslim looser it must be the jooos!

    Why is it that Pakistan with as you are suggesting a similar if not slightly greater IQ profile as Indians is still exporting mangoes,rice,cement and low end textiles(well over 90% of Paki export basket)?

    Shouldn’t Pakistan export atleast proportionately equal(i.e 1/7) value added products that India does ? Shouldn’t it have proportionately as many good colleges as India?

    Shouldn’t they have proportionately as many winners in the various maths/physics/biology/chemistry olympiads(which is a reflection of the top percentile of talent in the country)?(Actually given the fact that a country can only send 6 contestants it is not just a proportional thing still even proportionally Indians mop the floor with Pakis in EVERY such olympiad or chess tournament or any cerebral intensive activity you care to mention.

    Shouldn’t it have atleast 1 conglomorate in the same league as Tata,Birla,Reliance etc?Especially since it was a US ally in the cold war and had much better access pre WTO to US markets and technology.

    But no nothing.All the nation excels in is terrorism and wild conspiracy theories(joos are behind everything that happens in this world)

    There is only one explaination the upper cast hindus(&jains,parsees) have a completely different IQ profile from the rest of the subcontinent specially muslims.

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  • Indians export crappy software and engineering products. They are ruining the US as we speak. It is a Jewish agenda to see as many low IQ foreigners get into positions of power in the US so the country gets ruined. The bulk ofgraduates turned out by universities across India are low quality, only good enough to work in call centres as tech support (which even a high school kid can be trained to do).

    Brahmins make up a tiny percentage of India. Lot of these Brahmins are not very bright anyway. The bulk of India is low IQ.

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    • Replies: @Shobhit
    yeah typical muslim looser it must be the jooos!

    Why is it that Pakistan with as you are suggesting a similar if not slightly greater IQ profile as Indians is still exporting mangoes,rice,cement and low end textiles(well over 90% of Paki export basket)?

    Shouldn't Pakistan export atleast proportionately equal(i.e 1/7) value added products that India does ? Shouldn't it have proportionately as many good colleges as India?

    Shouldn't they have proportionately as many winners in the various maths/physics/biology/chemistry olympiads(which is a reflection of the top percentile of talent in the country)?(Actually given the fact that a country can only send 6 contestants it is not just a proportional thing still even proportionally Indians mop the floor with Pakis in EVERY such olympiad or chess tournament or any cerebral intensive activity you care to mention.

    Shouldn't it have atleast 1 conglomorate in the same league as Tata,Birla,Reliance etc?Especially since it was a US ally in the cold war and had much better access pre WTO to US markets and technology.

    But no nothing.All the nation excels in is terrorism and wild conspiracy theories(joos are behind everything that happens in this world)

    There is only one explaination the upper cast hindus(&jains,parsees) have a completely different IQ profile from the rest of the subcontinent specially muslims.

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  • @Khan
    Dont let some of these Hindu posters fool you (particularly Rec1, or whatever his name is; he draws up stats from thin air). Pakistan, a Muslim country, has a touch higher IQ than India (84 against 82) while Bangladesh, another Muslim country, averages the same IQ as India. Fazlur Khan, a Bangladeshi Muslim, is regarded as the 'father' of modern structural engineering. He also designed the Sears Tower in Chicago. Sal Khan of Khan academy, another Bangladeshi Muslim, is likely more intelligent than the 99% of current Indian Hindu Brahmins.

    We are talking genetic potential.Pakistani 84 is probably due to significantly less malnourishment rates than India.
    The upper caste Hindus especially Brahmins are vastly superior to South Asian muslims.
    Why is it during around 500 years of Islamic domination of the subcontinent science and tech discoveries earlier common to the subcontinent mostly disappeared and what little was done was done in tiny Hindu Kindgoms like the Kerela school of mathamatecians.Can you name one great south asian muslim scientist between 11th and 18th century ORIGINATING in Islamic India??

    Why is that? Why is it Pakistan’s chief export is still low end textiles,rice,cotton yarn cement and other low value add items and India’s chief exports are Software,Engineering goods,Petrochemicals and Gems and Jewelry??Given the fact both nations began basically at the same time and Pakistan being in the US camp in the cold war had access to US tech and markets(like south Korea did) which India did not?

    Why does India have some of the best engineering and math schools in the developing world(IISC,IIT etc) and Pakistan doesn’t ?

    The only objective answer is that the top 25% cognitive fraction of India is vastly superior to Pakistan’s top 25%.I know it hurts but numbers don’t lie.

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  • Dont let some of these Hindu posters fool you (particularly Rec1, or whatever his name is; he draws up stats from thin air). Pakistan, a Muslim country, has a touch higher IQ than India (84 against 82) while Bangladesh, another Muslim country, averages the same IQ as India. Fazlur Khan, a Bangladeshi Muslim, is regarded as the ‘father’ of modern structural engineering. He also designed the Sears Tower in Chicago. Sal Khan of Khan academy, another Bangladeshi Muslim, is likely more intelligent than the 99% of current Indian Hindu Brahmins.

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    • Replies: @Shobhit
    We are talking genetic potential.Pakistani 84 is probably due to significantly less malnourishment rates than India.
    The upper caste Hindus especially Brahmins are vastly superior to South Asian muslims.
    Why is it during around 500 years of Islamic domination of the subcontinent science and tech discoveries earlier common to the subcontinent mostly disappeared and what little was done was done in tiny Hindu Kindgoms like the Kerela school of mathamatecians.Can you name one great south asian muslim scientist between 11th and 18th century ORIGINATING in Islamic India??

    Why is that? Why is it Pakistan's chief export is still low end textiles,rice,cotton yarn cement and other low value add items and India's chief exports are Software,Engineering goods,Petrochemicals and Gems and Jewelry??Given the fact both nations began basically at the same time and Pakistan being in the US camp in the cold war had access to US tech and markets(like south Korea did) which India did not?

    Why does India have some of the best engineering and math schools in the developing world(IISC,IIT etc) and Pakistan doesn't ?

    The only objective answer is that the top 25% cognitive fraction of India is vastly superior to Pakistan's top 25%.I know it hurts but numbers don't lie.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    explain this : Constitution of India was grafted by BR Ambedkar an untouchable who got the rare opportunity of getting education from good univ. thanks to the generosity of a Ksathriya landlord.

    APJ Kalam – former Indian president invented Indian Nuclear Delivery Systems and AR Rahman is one of the world’s best musicians also known as Mozart of Madras. Asia’s first Nobel Laureate was not a Brahmin and so was Gandhi. Sardar Patel was a Shudra and played a key role in getting India’s independence and Narendra Modi is an untouchable and has transformed the face of his state making it one of the fastest developing regions on the planet. Many African countries are developing very rapidly for example Nigeria while Arabs. The thing is that people emulate what others in their brethren achieve , in case of West , the achievements of Britiain – a white christian country prompted others to follow. The reason why in present day and age the low caste converts to christianity progress much faster than their unfortunate Hindu or Sikh or Muslim cousins. The same reason why Muslim world over are backward irrespective of the race., many caucasian or fair skinned countries are Muslim and are a dismally deprived eg. Afganistan.

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    • Replies: @Maya
    Kalam and Rahman were both hindus who converted to Islam. Rahman is a first generation convert ans Kalam is a second generation convert.
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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Most Indian intellectuals are not brahmin or even Hindu who do not fall in any of this caste system. Infact the nuclear scientists who figured out the nuclear bomb is a Muslim from Tamil nadu. There is no genetic difference between the caste system. Infact most brahmin are very dark skin.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Ryan G.
    (Some general thoughts:) Mr. Karlin, while I agree that the Brahmins (~5% of India's pop.) have a very high average IQ, I don't quite think that the Indian masses are quite as dull as you propose. You claim that the Indians in UK have an average IQ a half standard deviation below Whites, but Indians in Britain outperform Whites on most indicators of social and economic wellbeing. You claim that most Indians in UK are 'Patels', and that accounts for their supposedly 'poor' performance. Not quite: a large chunk are Jatt Sikhs (i.e. agricultural laborers), Ismailis, and Hindu Bengalis, plus Indian immigrants from E. Africa. Most of the Indians that migrated to Britain were poorer immigrants that came to do factory work or below. In fact, Lynn himself has stated multiple times that Indians there have average IQ's in the high 90's.

    Indians in Mauritius and Trinidad are largely descended from plantation laborers, yet, based on the PISA scores of those countries, this would strongly imply an IQ in the early 90's (about 93) for these two groups (keeping in mind that Trinidad is 40% black, plus 20% Mulatto, Mauritius is ~29% Black- and this probably depresses the scores of these two islands greatly). This may not sound plentiful, but keep in mind that a large percentage (if not an outright majority) of the Indians in these countries are descended from field laborers taken from India's downtrodden Untouchable castes (many being taken from India's most backward regions, such as Bihar), who comprise ~15% of India's population. If a couple of generations of good diet and OK education can raise the average IQ's of such highly downtrodden peoples to Southern European levels, then I wouldn't be quick to dismiss the masses of Indians.

    I agree, the problem with these test is that, Indian education system is in English. We are given education in English while our brain works in Hindi. Myself, I found that when I read numbers in Hindi my brain works fast while on the other end when I took them in English, it slow downs. Also, in lectures (in English) my brain shutdown after sometime even when I am excited about the lecture. If the lecture is in Hindi, my brain never felt sleepy. Also quota system is the problem of resulting in lower IQ. Earlier you will find mostly all the students were having high IQ, but it has fallen these days due to quota. I have worked with different countries students and I can tell you Indian student IQ is not low. They are similar to other students and so do other students.. IQ is just a definition. It is the initial training which makes difference, if Indian politicians give me just one chance (for 20 years). IQ has nothing to do with genetics, you can find that many kids of noble prize winners were born with even low IQ. I can produce a breed of students having IQ of average 100. Indian training is the problem, as we are just following the training system of Britishers, who intelligently used a system which will produce a stupid intelligent workers.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Hindi is spoken by only 30% of the population of India as their mother tongue. Only English has enabled Vish to be a participant of this forum.This is the dilemma of India. When you try to homogenize a diverse society only the preadvantaged miniscule populations gain to the disadvantage of the rest of the traditionally marginalized sections of society. Another anomaly is forgetting the Sumerian, Harappan, Tamil, ASI genetic linguistic and historical contributions to Indian Subcontinental society. After all, all modern Indians are a mixture of ASI and ANI genes. If Vish subjects himself to a genome mapping he will find that the major contributor to his genesis are derived from ASI Dravidian genes, though he may be speaking an Indo Europeon Language now. English though another Indo European Language is favourably servicing the entire subcontinent in all scientific and other inclusive frontiers without discrimination.
    Discrimination in thesociety is the bane of India. Let us be pragmatic.
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  • My post on Indian IQ (max potential is low to mid 90's) spawned an interesting analysis by commentator rec1man. It is not very well organized but he does have a ton of useful information that deserves to be highlighted. It's reprinted in full below interspersed with occasional commentary by myself: 75% of the Indian population...
  • Just a few things:

    It is true that that cities in India are nowhere near as functional and advanced as those in Europe or the West, but I have travelled in the North Indian countryside. Villages with a high Brahmin population is (percentage wise) tend to be better kept and better looking. I once went to a village in Saharanpur, in Northern India, where nearly all the inhabitants were Tyagi Brahmins, a subcaste of Brahmins who have taken to agriculture and have become relatively prosperous. The houses were well built, the lanes were clean and there was a lot of greenery. So you do have Brahmin dominated areas , which are quite well tended,. Similiarly in South India, one has Brahmin villages known as Agraharam, where the houses are well built, and the streets are well planned. These are not cities though, just villages and settlements, but they are by all standards genteel..

    Simla is a town where more than thirty percent of the population are Brahmins , and it is quite pleasant, even though a bit overcrowded.

    Bombay was never built by Brahmins, and was never really governed by Brahmins . Most of the slums in India are populated by Dalits and Lower Class Muslims.so the Slumdog Millionare example does not stick.

    The point is this. In both rural India, and in cities, Brahmins, along with the Merchant Castes, and Landowning Dominant Castes such as Jats, Gujjars, Rajputs and Ahirs in Northern India, and Nairs and Gowdas in Southern India whenever they can live a segregated life from the 75% of the population who dod not belong to these categories. That is perhaps why villages in India where the Brahmin population is low have decrepit look. Even in the Gangetic plain, which i extremely backward, , the ten per cent Brahmin minority are relatively well off an often lead a segregated life. And Uttar Pradesh has been ruled and dominated by Chief Misiter from the Backward Castes and Dalits.
    Brahmins from this state who leave often occupy highly skilled white collar positions in both the public and private sector.

    As for cities, there is not a single Urban area where Brahmins have ever been the majority. Villages yes, , and few I have seen are as I said better built, but Bombay does not ahve a Brahmin majority. Varanasi also does not have a Brahmin majority. Doms and Muslim make up a far larger percentage of the population. Brahmins there live in their segregated neighbourhood, though I d not how those neighbourhoods look like.

    Also in terms of the Brahmin population, it is quite hard to guess, what the actual population is, as no census has been done, and it may not same ratio to the whole Indian population today as it was in in 1931(when the last caste census was taken), as different castes grow at different rates. I would hazard that the Brahmin population growth would be lower. In fact I read somewhere that a certain Brahmin sub caste or tribe, the Chitrapur Saraswat Brahmins have a population that is only 21,000, and is rapidly declining, in similiar fashion to the Parsis. the reason why data existed for this community is because they have their own community organisation which collects it. Like the Parsis, they are well educated and quite affluent. I would suppose that such demographic characteristics would apply to groups such as the Bengali Brahmin and Tamil Brahmin.

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    • Replies: @Obamahdi
    You've precisely explained why caste segregation is so important to higher caste hindus. Low castes and dalits are a source of pollution,spiritually,physically and biologically.
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  • The question of Indian IQ is a big puzzle. Far trickier than China's IQ which I think I've basically figured out (101-102 today; 106-108 genetic ceiling). The PISA-adjusted IQ of India - as extrapolated from the states of Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh, which are relatively rich and are reputed to have good school systems...
  • I’ am an Indian.
    Caste System? Brahmins? You are wrong mister.
    That was the past.It exist but not as prevalent and explict as you say it is.
    Untouchables? Nothing sort of that exists now. Like In Many Other countries , the major inequality
    is ofcourse based on wealth.
    I still can’t get over the fact you have not properly researched before making such serious allegations.

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  • Possible explanations for IQ gaps:
    1. Selective reproductive advantage for intelligent individuals, similar to Ashkenazi Jews, since the community was limited to intellectual tasks.
    2. Selective gene flow from intelligent individuals into the brahmin gene pool – India is not homogenous in ethnic origins. Waves of migrations and multiple indigenous cultures were formed into the matrix of Hinduism, and each community’s shaman, priest, poet and philosopher would have been granted the status of brahmins for that community – that is why there are dark-skinned Brahmins in the South and East of the country, where the people in general are darker complexioned, rather than a uniform sea of white skinned Brahmins.
    3. Perhaps some epigenetic mechanism may be involved, transmission of acquired characteristics.
    4. Maybe all cultural, no genetics whatsoever.

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  • @Saul
    Exactly. The flaw in Karlin's reasoning is this: the brahmins who underperform remain brahmins. There is no evidence that intelligent brahmins outbreed the not so intelligent ones. So there is no selection for intelligence.

    Brahmins are not from a single ethnic stock. As various tribes and communities were assimilated into the Hindu social structure, each tribe’s shaman or medicine man or priest or philosopher would be accepted as a Brahmin, while their ruler would become a Kshatriya, and things like that. That’s why South Indian and Bengali Brahmins are significantly darker skinned than north-west Indians – there has clearly been a lot of gene flow into the brahmin pool. This would result in higher IQ genes flowing into the brahmin pool.
    And the reason for Jewish intelligence is given the same way, higher IQ Jews thrived and reproduced more than lower IQ ones since their professions involved intellectual activity.

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  • @rec1man
    75% of the Indian population gets affirmative action quota in India and is genetically low IQ
    25% of the Indian population is upper caste and higher IQ and does not get quota
    Most of the upper caste population has Y-DNA = R1A = Russian / Slavic

    In North India there are 3 levels of quota, each quota level corresponding to a different IQ level
    In North India Upper caste > Other Backward Caste > Dalit - Untouchable - Tribal

    In South India, there are 4 levels of quota
    Brahmin > Dravidian Backward Caste > Dravidian Most Backward caste > Dalit-Untouchable-Tribal

    Upper castes and Brahmins dont get quota. In North India, upper castes and Brahmins are genetically the same of Aryan origin. In South India, the only Aryan origin caste is Brahmin
    The others are dravidian

    5% of the Indian population is of Oriental race and they dont have a high IQ

    Next vegetarianism = Most upper castes, the higher IQ segment is vegetarian
    The lower castes are non-vegetarian and have lower IQ.

    Jains are a 100% vegetarian merchant caste and they have beaten the Jews in the diamond trade, even in Tel Aviv

    The world chess champion Vish Anand comes from a vegetarian brahmin family

    In India, a non-vegetarian person is likely a low IQ affirmative action caste
    You can check a persons caste rank by simply asking whether they are vegetarian, which implies higher caste

    In the Indian Manhattan project team of 18, of which 15 were brahmin and 3 merchants

    Each Indian diaspora is different and has a different caste blend and a different IQ
    The lowest level IQ diaspora is the agricultural laborer , 50% Shudra, 50% untouchable
    This forms about 95% of the Indian population in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Trinidad, Guyana etc

    The Patels and Sikhs are Upper-Shudra / Vaishya and this is 80% of the diaspora in UK
    In UK, they outperform whites academically and per Lynn , in the 2nd generation, measured and IQ of 97

    In the USA, 60% of the Indian diaspora is upper caste, and 40% from middle-level castes like Patels and Sikhs

    Well fish eating will increase your Iq level.So comment like being vegeterian means higher Iq isn’t true because in kerala and Bengal people eat fish and these two community have highest IQ(avg) in India.

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  • So far as I have seen, the R1 gene not only has its largest number of individuals and highest percentage in North West India/Pakistan but also its highest diversity. This makes sense. The Harrapa civilization was early and must have been a spreading centre for agriculture. So, an R1 community established there post ice age (via Iran) would have spread back to Iran and Russia. The language may even have been PIE. The later Aryan invasion chronicled in Sanskrit was an elite replacement not a large scale population movement. It’s just that the people writing about it identified with the elite, just as with the Anglo-Saxon invasion of England. Lots of then were already there. It was a movement within an existing R1 area. India is clearly a huge mix. Early in its spread, the human race in South India was wiped out by the Toba eruption and the area was recolonized from both East and West. The East African Asian success stories that I know socially, (some are in laws to other members of my family) are all Brahmins but I think that their success, like that of the Jews from Eastern Europe, relates to family tradition rather than innate superior intelligence. In Africa, they provided all the services in small towns for the African communities in the countryside, just as Jews in Russia were restricted from land ownership outside the Pale. It takes many generations to lose such acculturation. (Try the Iroquois 5).

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  • @Skeptical
    All of you need to read, investigate history of India even before speaking about it.
    1) The IQ figures are given for the time period of 1945-90. The study does not include current IQ figures.So based on the past figures we cannot compare the intelligence of Indians with any other people.
    2) The upper caste people for hundreds of centuries had access to education. Woman and lower castes were prohibited and those who tried to study were prosecuted. In order to compensate the loss and to create equality and give them justice reservation was implemented. But this doesn't mean that the lower caste people or women are not talented. They were and still are talented but to show their talent they were given this opportunity. The only people who are against it are upper caste men as it has taken away their power of controlling people through superstition and blind faith.
    3) Archeological evidences show Aryans never existed.British linguist Max-Muller created this Aryan Invasion theory based on language and color. But it is now disregarded as it has been proved wrong by the archeologists. This theory was supported by the Europeans to prove their superiority and to justify that India was already colonized in the past. This created less opposition. The upper caste desperately trying to save their position jumped into the theory saying they were Aryans.
    4) DNA's show that all the people in India including Brahmins are indigenous people not some foreigners.
    5) If Aryans came to India and settled here, then why didn't British , French and other European people settle here post Independence??? Why are more and more Indians spreading and settling across the world and fewer of foreigners settling in India?
    6) There is no evidence that Upper caste people are Aryans. If you are thinking that color decides the caste system, trust me I have seen black coloured Brahmins and brown skinned Kshatriyas and fair/white
    out-castes.Even the Hindu Gods are Black. So colour is not the basis of caste system in India.
    7) According to one theory, the out-castes include real foreigners (including the Greeks who fought with Porous) settled in India. Out-castes also included people who were Buddhists but during the Revival of
    Hinduism, Hindus harassed all these people who were against following Hinduism and drove them outside the city's boundaries and socially isolated them.
    8) Please read all the theories and riddles of Brahmanism, Hinduism, Buddhism in India without bias irrespective to who wrote it and then write/comment on it. Even most of the educated Indians are ignorant of
    true history of India. Don't believe in what people say or write without any archeological, scientific or concrete evidence or proofs.

    “Skeptical on December 24, 2012 at 10:11 pm said:
    6) There is no evidence that Upper caste people are Aryans. If you are thinking that color decides the caste system, trust me I have seen black coloured Brahmins and brown skinned Kshatriyas and fair/white
    out-castes.Even the Hindu Gods are Black. So colour is not the basis of caste system in India.”

    Actually the ‘Arya/ Ari’ and some other derivatives of word arya stand for ‘enemy’ in the language of upper caste. A popular Brahmin name is Aridaman i.e. the one who suppresses Aryans. On the other hand there is a strong evidence for untouchables being of aryan decent, both on account of history and genetics. Upper castes particulalry of Northern India have alot of Australoid blood and this have a lot of black/highly dark skins. This is true of brahmins/thakur and banias. Upper castes are non aryan. Further, other than ancinet Israel only Indian civilization (post Buddhist) has rejected God showing non aryan nature of Brahmin culture.

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  • All of you need to read, investigate history of India even before speaking about it.
    1) The IQ figures are given for the time period of 1945-90. The study does not include current IQ figures.So based on the past figures we cannot compare the intelligence of Indians with any other people.
    2) The upper caste people for hundreds of centuries had access to education. Woman and lower castes were prohibited and those who tried to study were prosecuted. In order to compensate the loss and to create equality and give them justice reservation was implemented. But this doesn’t mean that the lower caste people or women are not talented. They were and still are talented but to show their talent they were given this opportunity. The only people who are against it are upper caste men as it has taken away their power of controlling people through superstition and blind faith.
    3) Archeological evidences show Aryans never existed.British linguist Max-Muller created this Aryan Invasion theory based on language and color. But it is now disregarded as it has been proved wrong by the archeologists. This theory was supported by the Europeans to prove their superiority and to justify that India was already colonized in the past. This created less opposition. The upper caste desperately trying to save their position jumped into the theory saying they were Aryans.
    4) DNA’s show that all the people in India including Brahmins are indigenous people not some foreigners.
    5) If Aryans came to India and settled here, then why didn’t British , French and other European people settle here post Independence??? Why are more and more Indians spreading and settling across the world and fewer of foreigners settling in India?
    6) There is no evidence that Upper caste people are Aryans. If you are thinking that color decides the caste system, trust me I have seen black coloured Brahmins and brown skinned Kshatriyas and fair/white
    out-castes.Even the Hindu Gods are Black. So colour is not the basis of caste system in India.
    7) According to one theory, the out-castes include real foreigners (including the Greeks who fought with Porous) settled in India. Out-castes also included people who were Buddhists but during the Revival of
    Hinduism, Hindus harassed all these people who were against following Hinduism and drove them outside the city’s boundaries and socially isolated them.
    8) Please read all the theories and riddles of Brahmanism, Hinduism, Buddhism in India without bias irrespective to who wrote it and then write/comment on it. Even most of the educated Indians are ignorant of
    true history of India. Don’t believe in what people say or write without any archeological, scientific or concrete evidence or proofs.

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    • Replies: @ohmy
    "Skeptical on December 24, 2012 at 10:11 pm said:
    6) There is no evidence that Upper caste people are Aryans. If you are thinking that color decides the caste system, trust me I have seen black coloured Brahmins and brown skinned Kshatriyas and fair/white
    out-castes.Even the Hindu Gods are Black. So colour is not the basis of caste system in India."

    Actually the 'Arya/ Ari' and some other derivatives of word arya stand for 'enemy' in the language of upper caste. A popular Brahmin name is Aridaman i.e. the one who suppresses Aryans. On the other hand there is a strong evidence for untouchables being of aryan decent, both on account of history and genetics. Upper castes particulalry of Northern India have alot of Australoid blood and this have a lot of black/highly dark skins. This is true of brahmins/thakur and banias. Upper castes are non aryan. Further, other than ancinet Israel only Indian civilization (post Buddhist) has rejected God showing non aryan nature of Brahmin culture.

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  • I had think all your writing as flimsy once you mentioned India being invaded by “Aryans”. If you still believe in such myths, the whole article instantly loses credibility, and appears as a weird hypothesis by a wannabe expert. To understand a diverse society with more than 5000 years of stable civilization, you have to do the required homework. So please educate yourself about India’s civilizational history, take into account historical research of the last 2-3 decades which has demolished colonialist history! I am sorry that I have to be blunt, but your article has only shown how utterly ignorant you are about this country and intellectual prowess of its people. Just look at the pre industrial revolution western society and compare with the then India. Before the British colonizers started the loot in India, it was the richest nation of the world. (if you are surprised, you need to read the economic history of the world)

    As far as the study of IQ is concerned, it’s flawed.

    Caste is perhaps the most misunderstood concept by foreigners. Caste had nothing to do with IQ. For example a couple of the most revered books: Ramayana was written by a tribal guy Valmiki and the mother of Mahabharata’s author Veda Vyas came from a fisherman’s family.

    Please refrain from posting articles with tons of incorrect information.

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  • My post on Indian IQ (max potential is low to mid 90's) spawned an interesting analysis by commentator rec1man. It is not very well organized but he does have a ton of useful information that deserves to be highlighted. It's reprinted in full below interspersed with occasional commentary by myself: 75% of the Indian population...
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I have a slightly different take on this.

    For a society’s advancement what we need to look at is not average IQ, where 95-105 doesn’t seem to make much obvious difference in an average individual’s contribution to the collective.

    If we compare HDI vs IQ average of OECD countries there doesn’t seem to be a obvious corellation. Italians apparently have higher IQ’s than Germans etc. Also there seems to be a stronger correlation between liguistic types and IQ Finland,Estonia etc which speak Uralic languages apparently have higher IQ’s than most Europeans which speak Indo European languages.

    What is important is the IQ of the top 1% of the society and especially the top 0.1 % which produces the geniuses which take civilization forward.This is probably where the Europeans score over the East Asians.

    This is of course purely conjecture partly because I am not aware of standardized IQ tests ability to assess the top 0.1 % of the population effectively.

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  • The question of Indian IQ is a big puzzle. Far trickier than China's IQ which I think I've basically figured out (101-102 today; 106-108 genetic ceiling). The PISA-adjusted IQ of India - as extrapolated from the states of Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh, which are relatively rich and are reputed to have good school systems...
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I don’t understand when the author said caste is inherent to Hinduism. That makes me feel that he is fairly ignorant and his research is incomplete. But the fact is today’s caste system is the outcome of fights between kings and invaders, greed of feudal lords in the dark ages of India. Varna(caste) system actually is not based on birth but on deeds.
    For the validity of my argument let me quote Manu Smriti:
    “A Shudra becomes a Brahmin and a Brahmin becomes a Shudra because of his Karma”
    Karma means deed. That’s all

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  • @John
    That being said, there does seem to be a separation of IQ between Brahmin and the rest of the Indian population. As they have their version of affirmative actions, plus personal observation is that there are a lot more people in the high tech fields are Brahmin. Higher than the 5% of the native population.

    Here is my conjecture. Brahmins come from the Aryan population which is now modern day Iran or Iraq. Since the Iranians (and in general N Africans and Middle Easterners) have IQ in the mid to high eighties, it is reasonable for the Brahmins to also have similar IQ. Since the average for India was reported to be 82 by Lynn, the rest of the population might be a tad below this, say 80. That is half a standard deviation separation between the Brahmins and the rest. It should explain the pattern we see in the high tech world.

    Iranian and Middle Eastern IQs suppressed by their reclusive and insular religion

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  • and again I do NOT notice East Asian SDs. Why the secrecy

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  • also Flynn is a Fool. He predicted that Japan would rule the world based on his IQ studies. Look what happened to Japan

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  • @rec1man
    75% of the Indian population gets affirmative action quota in India and is genetically low IQ
    25% of the Indian population is upper caste and higher IQ and does not get quota
    Most of the upper caste population has Y-DNA = R1A = Russian / Slavic

    In North India there are 3 levels of quota, each quota level corresponding to a different IQ level
    In North India Upper caste > Other Backward Caste > Dalit - Untouchable - Tribal

    In South India, there are 4 levels of quota
    Brahmin > Dravidian Backward Caste > Dravidian Most Backward caste > Dalit-Untouchable-Tribal

    Upper castes and Brahmins dont get quota. In North India, upper castes and Brahmins are genetically the same of Aryan origin. In South India, the only Aryan origin caste is Brahmin
    The others are dravidian

    5% of the Indian population is of Oriental race and they dont have a high IQ

    Next vegetarianism = Most upper castes, the higher IQ segment is vegetarian
    The lower castes are non-vegetarian and have lower IQ.

    Jains are a 100% vegetarian merchant caste and they have beaten the Jews in the diamond trade, even in Tel Aviv

    The world chess champion Vish Anand comes from a vegetarian brahmin family

    In India, a non-vegetarian person is likely a low IQ affirmative action caste
    You can check a persons caste rank by simply asking whether they are vegetarian, which implies higher caste

    In the Indian Manhattan project team of 18, of which 15 were brahmin and 3 merchants

    Each Indian diaspora is different and has a different caste blend and a different IQ
    The lowest level IQ diaspora is the agricultural laborer , 50% Shudra, 50% untouchable
    This forms about 95% of the Indian population in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Trinidad, Guyana etc

    The Patels and Sikhs are Upper-Shudra / Vaishya and this is 80% of the diaspora in UK
    In UK, they outperform whites academically and per Lynn , in the 2nd generation, measured and IQ of 97

    In the USA, 60% of the Indian diaspora is upper caste, and 40% from middle-level castes like Patels and Sikhs

    well done! thats telling him!

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  • Unfortunately much like Jews they cannot be expected to be all that loyal to the Indian nation (to the extent that an Indian nation exists).
    Why is this so? It seems you are hoping that India and Israel will fail. ALL Indians look towards Mother India. BTW what were European IQs in the dark ages and what were they in Rennassance period? What are the SDs of IQ scores? Are the East Asian SDs lower? Do they all clump around 102? Are the European SDs higher and do they spread more to genius levels? Is that why we see more craetive output from white people than others. You have to answer these. And BTW most brahmins are vegetarians. That is rule of caste. Vegetarianism is best for the tropics. Chinese eat very litle meat. Just a smattering scattred among their noodles. The big meat eaters are the Westerners. Meat is an excellent diet for cold countries. Meat screws up the system in the tropics.
    When the light skinned Aryans first came to India, they were ALL meat eaters and beef eaters. But warm tropical climes changed their diets.

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  • My post on Indian IQ (max potential is low to mid 90's) spawned an interesting analysis by commentator rec1man. It is not very well organized but he does have a ton of useful information that deserves to be highlighted. It's reprinted in full below interspersed with occasional commentary by myself: 75% of the Indian population...
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Regarding Indian IQ, it has now become almost cliche to read stuff like ‘ Brahmins have lot of white blood’, ‘Brahmins are a high IQ group, an upper layer which is closest to Europeans’. Such uninformed opinions occur in European/Western blogs and literature are without any basis.
    1. Brahmins are largest caste in India at 7-10% of Indian population (i.e. 84-120 millions). Such a huge group, if it had Asheknazi IQ ~120, they would have solved the problems of third world such as illiteracy, povery, AIDS etc,.indeed of humanity. Just imagine 100 million people with average IQ of 120, 15 million would be ~135 IQ. In sheer numbers they are between size of Germany to Japan (lower of upper estimates).
    2. They are shorter and darker than locals in most states in North india. Kashmiri brahmins are shorter and darker than Muslims. In Punjab/Haryana/Rajasthan/HP/Delhi, they are noticeably shorter and darker than Jats and even pariahs (lowest castes).
    3. Finally, if they have high IQ where are the achievements.
    4. My assessmeent of Indian IQ on average, though I dont have any sources would be: North (including Eastern) Indian Peasants/farmers -85-100, Urban Businessmen – 90-100, South Indian Brahmins – 90-100, Untouchables – 80-95, North Indian Brahmins 75-90, Muslims 75-85, south indian peasants 85-95. There is great scope in improvement of above groups with reduction in malnutrition and access to education but the potential still doesn’t exceed the white race average of 100, though it may be equalled.

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  • Well Sambit has already said lot but he has not mentioned that apart from Kolkata which is the capital of Bengal province,no Indian city so far has produced any Nobel prize worthy work.# Indian have won with American citizenship working in those countries.That probably explains why Indian are so dumb with IQ around 82,but Bengali Hindu and Anglo Indian community in Bengal have Iq somewhere around 95 with S.D of very few points.From the day of Bengal Renaissance this land has produced countless intellectuals and will continue…but rest of the India will not produce any Nobel worth work not even in this century(I would venture a guess).I am an Anglo Indian living in Kolkata but the region is spoiled by 30% Muslim and another 20-25% non Bengali Hindu people from India.Famous Bengali writer Nirad.C.Chaudhuri wrote all these things in his book Autobiography of an unknown Indian and he was banished from India.

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  • Further there is an inverse relationship between percentage of Brahmins and prosperity of the state. States like Maharstara, Punjab, Haryana, with 1-2% brahmins do very well while those with 10-15% brahmins population such as Uttar Pradesh and Bihar are worse than sub-sharan africa. The southern state of Tamilnadu was extremely poor but there was an anti brahmin revolution leading to an exodus of Brahmins which caused brahmin population to decline from 15% to 4% and the fortunes of the state improved so much that it is one the leading states in India in science and technology

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  • ” Most of the upper caste population has Y-DNA = R1A = Russian / Slavic ”
    Actually it is completely opposite. It is only the untouchables, the lowest of the lowest who are of purely slavic stock. R1a is exclusive to them. Upper castes have defining marker J2 etc which are absent in them.

    The lower castes are of buddhist origin. In ancinet times huge invasions from present day Russia by Scythians for the protection of Buddhism happened. Their decendents became untouchables as Brahmins refused to accept any gift/food etc from them. One of the invader king’s name was even Dimitt (Pali for Dmitry, a very popular Russian name)

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  • CNN has an article about the best universities in the world. best universities in the world

    India has all of three universities in the top 400. All of them different branches of IIT. The best one clocked at at 232. If you go to the analysis portion, it has a section on the state of Indian higher education, not a flattering picture.

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    • Replies: @Boeing Employee
    India needs to fix this problem no doubt. It will take more funding of course.
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  • @Saul
    India sends the most contestants to Google Code Jam and performs miserably. It is outperformed regularly in the Math Olympiad by countries like Iran and Vietnam. India is dirt poor and the poorest states in India are the ones with the most brahmins.

    I think all this conjecture about brahmins having high IQs is kinda laughable.

    Well 3 out of 6 IMO contestant from India were Bengali from West Bengal and two consecutive years they have won gold medals,3 silver,one Bronze.

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  • @Boeing Employee
    Coming from a white anti-Indian piece of shit, poverty levels in India can be explained by environmental factors, one does not magically have a high IQ and all of a sudden their society grows to be an advanced civilization, there are too many people in India, it is not as simple as that, it takes time, and funding, a society as large as India will take time to grow, the average income in growing, with this Indians will better themselves. Due to the Brahmans high average IQ, India will grow to be a prosperous society in the future, as they were in the past, and no redneck trailer trash hick is going to change that, there is a correlation in these types of threads, those that hate India seemed to suffer from ADD or cognitive deficiencies.

    This idiot is not white,but an Arab guy probably-I have read his comments in Indian Chinese Iq puzzle where it was bashing Brahmin ,Hindu and later Bengali but one of the Bengali in that blog completely destroyed him-read the post made by Observer in that blog.

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  • @Saul
    "So in my opinion the Brahmins of Bengal have Highest IQ with average between 110-115"

    And that explains why Bengal is synonymous with abject poverty and horrifying living conditions?

    Very funny how brahmins keep pulling such flattering numbers out of their arses.....and very telling how HBD bloggers keep buying their BS. ;)

    Idiot,no Bengali Brahmins live in abject poverty-the par capita of income of Brahmin have 3 times more than other community…but it’s not Brahmin but other upper caste Bengali are also living quite well…It’s the Muslim Bengali and some tribal population from Hindu community who are living under poverty…But don’t worry…if the oil source is gone,them all those rich Arab Muslim camels and goats will have to beg on others doors just like the Porkistani or Bangladeshi people.

    The literacy of Bengali Brahmin are highest in India-99.23%(2011) statistics and in Kolkata,the capital of Indian Bengal have literacy above 95% (excluding Muslim) but the Anglo Indian or Christian Bengali have also very high literacy in Kolkata.

    In USA With less than 5000 population 2 Bengali Brahmin have won Pilitzer prize including one of the youngest ever Jhumpa Lahiri.

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  • @Saul
    "Perhaps the dumbest comment I have ever read, do you have any proof to justify that statement? How does the environment make them dumber? If anything the environment will have made them smarter.................Indian low IQ in India is explained by environmental factors"

    Dumb and dumber? :)

    Wow, you are responding as if you have the high ground in this discussion, than again low IQ redneck trailer trash tend to be ignorant, ignorance correlates with low IQ. I think the problem lies with White racists not wanting to be at the bottom of the barrel, I can take a poor Indian out of India, place him in a first world country, and have him be more successful than your average White in a generation or two, here is a better one, practice polishing shoes, because you will need it to serve your Indian master.

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  • @Saul
    "So in my opinion the Brahmins of Bengal have Highest IQ with average between 110-115"

    And that explains why Bengal is synonymous with abject poverty and horrifying living conditions?

    Very funny how brahmins keep pulling such flattering numbers out of their arses.....and very telling how HBD bloggers keep buying their BS. ;)

    Funny how white racists tend to think IQ automatically correlates with living conditions, must be their low IQ, since they are low income, jealous idiots afraid of non-white success, intelligent people can only do so much with so little, environmental factors contribute to a society, it is not just genetic input, unless you can prove to me that Indians are just stupid despite their history and their suffering with the British which drained their economy, I would suggest shutting your trap and moving on. If only the Brits did not overtake India, India wouldnt have this problem.

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  • @Saul
    India sends the most contestants to Google Code Jam and performs miserably. It is outperformed regularly in the Math Olympiad by countries like Iran and Vietnam. India is dirt poor and the poorest states in India are the ones with the most brahmins.

    I think all this conjecture about brahmins having high IQs is kinda laughable.

    Coming from a white anti-Indian piece of shit, poverty levels in India can be explained by environmental factors, one does not magically have a high IQ and all of a sudden their society grows to be an advanced civilization, there are too many people in India, it is not as simple as that, it takes time, and funding, a society as large as India will take time to grow, the average income in growing, with this Indians will better themselves. Due to the Brahmans high average IQ, India will grow to be a prosperous society in the future, as they were in the past, and no redneck trailer trash hick is going to change that, there is a correlation in these types of threads, those that hate India seemed to suffer from ADD or cognitive deficiencies.

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    • Replies: @Sambit
    This idiot is not white,but an Arab guy probably-I have read his comments in Indian Chinese Iq puzzle where it was bashing Brahmin ,Hindu and later Bengali but one of the Bengali in that blog completely destroyed him-read the post made by Observer in that blog.
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  • @Sambit
    Again some stupid statistics by some stupid people.

    Historically the Bengal circle has produced best Physicist.inventor,literary ,Economist from entire Asia.

    Bengali elite class Hindu,Few Muslims and some Christian missionaries have led in this part of the world in various field.

    Invention:JC Bose-the inventor of wireless communication(Well IEEE is felicitating him on Sept 15 at his native home Kolkata with a plaque which makes Kolkata the 3rd city in Asia to recieve such honor.)He was truly a great polymath who also showed experimentally that plant has similar system just like human being.

    The current test tube baby method(IVF) was also made by Bengali Subhas Mukhopadhya in 1978 but his tragic death certainly cost him the 2010 Nobel prize which went to Cambridge Physician Robert Edwards.

    Amar Gopal Bose-speaker

    Jawed Karim-Architect of pay pal and co founder of you tube and already have won one invention of the year award.

    Engineering:Fazlur Rahman Khan of Bangladesh-the greatest structural Engineer of 20th century.

    Physicist:one of all time great and one of the father of quantum(specifically quantum statistics) and his work has already brought 10 Nobel prize winners among which Bose-Einstein condensate is one of the greatest discovery of all time.Even god particle is also one type of boson.there are other names from this region but I will discuss only the best names from Calcutta/Bengal.

    economics-Asia's only Economist Nobel laureate Amartya Sen and Also legendary Micro credit pioneer Muhammad Yunus of Bangladesh.

    literature:First non European literature Nobel laureate Rabindranath Tagore(also the composer of 3 national anthems) and another great polymath.There are many others including several Booker or Pulitzer winners such as Ray,Jhumpa Lahiri etc.

    Religion and peace:Swami vivekananda was a Bengali mystic who established Hinduism as aworld religion at parliament of world religion in 1893.And there is Mother Teresa known for her charity work all over the world.

    In music and art:There are 17 Bengali Grammy award winners such as Ravishankar(who had a great impact on George Harrison/Beatles) and his daughter Nora Jones Shankar etc.in movie there is Satyajit Ray,one of the 10 greatest director in film History whose 5/6 movies feature in top 100 list of many magazines.

    Math and other field:Mount Everest height was calculated by Bengali Radhanath Sikdar in 1852 using spherical trigonometry.Recently a Bengali boy named Sourya Ray solved two critical puzzles set by Sir Issac Newton 350 years ago.The inaugural yuri Milner prize ,the hihest prize in world of science today was won by Bengali Physicist Ashoke Sen working in India.

    So in my opinion the Brahmins of Bengal have Highest IQ with average between 110-115 whle few other upper caste have Bengali have IQ just above 100(but these are only 15-20% of total Bengali Hindu population but Muslim will have IQ somewhere around 80-85 in Bengal.

    “So in my opinion the Brahmins of Bengal have Highest IQ with average between 110-115″

    And that explains why Bengal is synonymous with abject poverty and horrifying living conditions?

    Very funny how brahmins keep pulling such flattering numbers out of their arses…..and very telling how HBD bloggers keep buying their BS. ;)

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    • Replies: @Boeing Employee
    Funny how white racists tend to think IQ automatically correlates with living conditions, must be their low IQ, since they are low income, jealous idiots afraid of non-white success, intelligent people can only do so much with so little, environmental factors contribute to a society, it is not just genetic input, unless you can prove to me that Indians are just stupid despite their history and their suffering with the British which drained their economy, I would suggest shutting your trap and moving on. If only the Brits did not overtake India, India wouldnt have this problem.
    , @Sambit
    Idiot,no Bengali Brahmins live in abject poverty-the par capita of income of Brahmin have 3 times more than other community...but it's not Brahmin but other upper caste Bengali are also living quite well...It's the Muslim Bengali and some tribal population from Hindu community who are living under poverty...But don't worry...if the oil source is gone,them all those rich Arab Muslim camels and goats will have to beg on others doors just like the Porkistani or Bangladeshi people.

    The literacy of Bengali Brahmin are highest in India-99.23%(2011) statistics and in Kolkata,the capital of Indian Bengal have literacy above 95% (excluding Muslim) but the Anglo Indian or Christian Bengali have also very high literacy in Kolkata.

    In USA With less than 5000 population 2 Bengali Brahmin have won Pilitzer prize including one of the youngest ever Jhumpa Lahiri.

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  • @Boeing Employee
    "Just because higher cast Indians have the same Y-DNA as Russians / Slavs doesn’t necessary mean they have the same IQ potential. Those Indians have been living in the subcontinent for quite a long time, so the climate pressures on IQ has had a lot of time to lose its effect. Toss in the fact that some mixing with the locals has taken place over the generations and you have more of a reason to believe that they don’t have the same IQ potential."

    Perhaps the dumbest comment I have ever read, do you have any proof to justify that statement? How does the environment make them dumber? If anything the environment will have made them smarter, Furthermore one simply does not become retarded or lose (IQ) potential by simply living in an environment for a long time. Do you have any evidence that mixing with the natives declined Indian IQ? NO YOU DONT. You have no evidence to assume that the upper castes in India mixed with the natives declining IQ, it could be said that they mixed with the most intelligent native peoples out there, while the bottom portion of society mixed with the lower IQ natives, but in all honesty there is no evidence to sustain that the natives were dumber to begin with, or intermixing caused any decline in IQ.

    One needs to take in to account Iodine deficiency which is rampant in India, which explains why many kids die at early age, the brain just like anything grows to its fullest potential if given proper nourishment, unless you are an idiotic stormfronter who thinks genetics explains everything. The Flynn Effect is probably the biggest worst enemy of you white supremacists, that and the consensus amongst the scientific community that biological development is partially genetic and environmental. Indians have proven themselves to be quite intelligent, superior or on par with whites whenever they migrate to a first world country, (THEY HAVE PROVEN THEMSELVES). In Britain the Lower caste Dalits brought over as indentured servants are already surpassing whites in Britain in terms of success, lower castes Indians seem to be superior to even the average white, and forget about upper caste Indians, they have a higher average IQ which is rivaled by the Jews. Indian low IQ in India is explained by environmental factors,Indians regardless of caste seem to have a legacy of success wherever they go, they either surpass whites, rival whites or are pretty much almost as intelligent as whites, and Indians are a multiracial group of people, so its not an easy subject. Anyone who has worked with Indians knows they are a great asset to any business or venture, many whites on this page have a sense of supremacy which they are untitled to.

    “Perhaps the dumbest comment I have ever read, do you have any proof to justify that statement? How does the environment make them dumber? If anything the environment will have made them smarter……………..Indian low IQ in India is explained by environmental factors”

    Dumb and dumber? :)

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    • Replies: @Boeing Employee
    Wow, you are responding as if you have the high ground in this discussion, than again low IQ redneck trailer trash tend to be ignorant, ignorance correlates with low IQ. I think the problem lies with White racists not wanting to be at the bottom of the barrel, I can take a poor Indian out of India, place him in a first world country, and have him be more successful than your average White in a generation or two, here is a better one, practice polishing shoes, because you will need it to serve your Indian master.
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  • The question of Indian IQ is a big puzzle. Far trickier than China's IQ which I think I've basically figured out (101-102 today; 106-108 genetic ceiling). The PISA-adjusted IQ of India - as extrapolated from the states of Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh, which are relatively rich and are reputed to have good school systems...
  • @John
    That being said, there does seem to be a separation of IQ between Brahmin and the rest of the Indian population. As they have their version of affirmative actions, plus personal observation is that there are a lot more people in the high tech fields are Brahmin. Higher than the 5% of the native population.

    Here is my conjecture. Brahmins come from the Aryan population which is now modern day Iran or Iraq. Since the Iranians (and in general N Africans and Middle Easterners) have IQ in the mid to high eighties, it is reasonable for the Brahmins to also have similar IQ. Since the average for India was reported to be 82 by Lynn, the rest of the population might be a tad below this, say 80. That is half a standard deviation separation between the Brahmins and the rest. It should explain the pattern we see in the high tech world.

    A lot of such speculations are wishful thinking on the part of brahmins such as rec1man and westerners who like to imagine that aryans were from their part of the world.

    Visual inspection and genetic testing do not show any real distinction between castes. All indians are a mix of ANI and ASI which varies by region not caste:

    http://www.harappadna.org/

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  • @Saul
    There are over 50 million brahmins in India. More than 40% of them live in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh (population:200 million), which also happens to be one of the poorest states in India, which itself is poor even by third world standards. How do you reconcile that with these claims of high brahmin IQ?

    That being said, there does seem to be a separation of IQ between Brahmin and the rest of the Indian population. As they have their version of affirmative actions, plus personal observation is that there are a lot more people in the high tech fields are Brahmin. Higher than the 5% of the native population.

    Here is my conjecture. Brahmins come from the Aryan population which is now modern day Iran or Iraq. Since the Iranians (and in general N Africans and Middle Easterners) have IQ in the mid to high eighties, it is reasonable for the Brahmins to also have similar IQ. Since the average for India was reported to be 82 by Lynn, the rest of the population might be a tad below this, say 80. That is half a standard deviation separation between the Brahmins and the rest. It should explain the pattern we see in the high tech world.

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    • Replies: @Saul
    A lot of such speculations are wishful thinking on the part of brahmins such as rec1man and westerners who like to imagine that aryans were from their part of the world.

    Visual inspection and genetic testing do not show any real distinction between castes. All indians are a mix of ANI and ASI which varies by region not caste:

    http://www.harappadna.org/

    , @jayjay
    Iranian and Middle Eastern IQs suppressed by their reclusive and insular religion
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  • My post on Indian IQ (max potential is low to mid 90's) spawned an interesting analysis by commentator rec1man. It is not very well organized but he does have a ton of useful information that deserves to be highlighted. It's reprinted in full below interspersed with occasional commentary by myself: 75% of the Indian population...
  • @SP
    To suggest the IQ potential of Brahmins is anywhere near 100 is out of sight in my view (let alone other "high casts"), because there is no real life indication to confirm so that could ot be explained away, but many many real-life contradictions instead, for example:

    Brahmins are about 5% of India population and close to 10% in the Uttar Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh, Rajasthan, Bihar and Orissa. That's A LOT, perhaps equivalent to the size of Germany. Yet places where Brahmins are numerous (and in utter control historically being the "highest cast) are almost like a pit WTHOUT exception.

    Brahmins cities/regions have never had Soviet-style harsh Communism in place. Say all you want, but the Brits were the world superpower at colonial time when ruled India. At the eve of India's independence, the Brits left Brahmins with the most advanced and extensive rail networks of entire Asia(or perhaps entire world except the US and incliding war-torn Europe, China and Japan), an educated social economic elites who could speak fluent English - the default language of int'l trade, extensive links with commonwealth world, a fully functional (for the 1st time in history) bureaucracy equipped with English common laws and advanced social structures of independent institutions and media... all the envies of the world at a time, none of these has been touched even slightly by WWI and WWII unlike other places in Asia and Europe. With all these one might imagine that with "100 IQ" ( or "105 IQ" ) elites you'll get a "Japan" in no time. Yet name ONE city today (there're plenty in India that are majority Brahmins) that goes slightly beyond 3rd world? What are the excuses? Pleeease. 100 IQers won't develop those kinds of cities. The holy city of Varanasi, with " long line of Brahmin priests and gurus", is a typical example.

    Sorry, but a population led by even 90 IQ social/economic elites won't get anywhere close to the level that Brahmin cities have displayed, let alone "100 IQ" or "105 IQ" (impossible). Major cities of Mexico(90 IQ?), Malaysia, Thailand, Brazil, for example, ( all led by 100 IQ minority elites?) are a world away from the most advance Brahmin city in India and don't hold your breath that the huge gap would shrink in the foreseeable future.

    If you put Brahmins at 100 or plus average IQ, where you put Iranian? Thais? must be 120 plus average IQ perhaps?

    Who are Brahmins genetically? Where they were from? Some elites / royals from Persia historically? Can any majority Brahmin city surpass the prosperity of high 80 IQ Teheran in the future? ever?

    Tamil Nadu is a Brahmin region. But where are the smart ones shown in PISA 2009?

    India is historically nobody in IMO. 2012 is the only exception. Anyway, with a population the size of Germany, Brahmins could EASILY chunk out many 100+ IQer even with mid or high 80s average IQ ( which I suspect is the case due to Persia/Iran comparison) to play with, particularly when they as the "highest cast" control all the best goodies in India by default, thus suffer no discrimination whatsoever unlike for example Han Chinese in SE Asia. From this angle one can argue ligitly that perhaps for Brahmins, the Flynn effect points are very limited already , the minimum compared with other discriminated "castes” in India.

    So a US/Canada immigration filter of 1/1000 (among many or majority Brahmins applicants already) could get some 100+ IQers, big deal?

    “Brahmins are about 5% of India population and close to 10% in the Uttar Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh, Rajasthan, Bihar and Orissa. That’s A LOT, perhaps equivalent to the size of Germany. Yet places where Brahmins are numerous (and in utter control historically being the “highest cast) are almost like a pit WTHOUT exception.”

    True, and that makes all these fantasies of 110 IQ average for brahmins untenable.

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  • India sends the most contestants to Google Code Jam and performs miserably. It is outperformed regularly in the Math Olympiad by countries like Iran and Vietnam. India is dirt poor and the poorest states in India are the ones with the most brahmins.

    I think all this conjecture about brahmins having high IQs is kinda laughable.

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    • Replies: @Boeing Employee
    Coming from a white anti-Indian piece of shit, poverty levels in India can be explained by environmental factors, one does not magically have a high IQ and all of a sudden their society grows to be an advanced civilization, there are too many people in India, it is not as simple as that, it takes time, and funding, a society as large as India will take time to grow, the average income in growing, with this Indians will better themselves. Due to the Brahmans high average IQ, India will grow to be a prosperous society in the future, as they were in the past, and no redneck trailer trash hick is going to change that, there is a correlation in these types of threads, those that hate India seemed to suffer from ADD or cognitive deficiencies.
    , @Sambit
    Well 3 out of 6 IMO contestant from India were Bengali from West Bengal and two consecutive years they have won gold medals,3 silver,one Bronze.
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  • The question of Indian IQ is a big puzzle. Far trickier than China's IQ which I think I've basically figured out (101-102 today; 106-108 genetic ceiling). The PISA-adjusted IQ of India - as extrapolated from the states of Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh, which are relatively rich and are reputed to have good school systems...
  • There are over 50 million brahmins in India. More than 40% of them live in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh (population:200 million), which also happens to be one of the poorest states in India, which itself is poor even by third world standards. How do you reconcile that with these claims of high brahmin IQ?

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    • Replies: @John
    That being said, there does seem to be a separation of IQ between Brahmin and the rest of the Indian population. As they have their version of affirmative actions, plus personal observation is that there are a lot more people in the high tech fields are Brahmin. Higher than the 5% of the native population.

    Here is my conjecture. Brahmins come from the Aryan population which is now modern day Iran or Iraq. Since the Iranians (and in general N Africans and Middle Easterners) have IQ in the mid to high eighties, it is reasonable for the Brahmins to also have similar IQ. Since the average for India was reported to be 82 by Lynn, the rest of the population might be a tad below this, say 80. That is half a standard deviation separation between the Brahmins and the rest. It should explain the pattern we see in the high tech world.

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  • @rec1man
    In the California 2012 National Merit list, there were 184 Indian winners of which

    Brahmin = 112
    North Indian Aryan Upper castes = 40
    Dravidian Upper castes = 25
    Patels ( middle ranking ) = 3
    Sikhs ( middle ranking ) = 4

    In the US diaspora, Sikhs and Patels despite being 40% of the diaspora, win just 4%
    In the UK, these same Patels and Sikhs are 80% of the Indian diaspora and easily outperform whites academically

    The above data, also shows that sampling has to be very accurate to reflect the various caste IQs

    Be advised that this poster rec1man is a south indian brahmin supremacist who is notorious for making up data with the sole intent of making brahmins look like super geniuses.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Read also Robert Sapolsky on epigenetics and watch him on youtube. Many societies allow bad epigeneticall memes without to support educational changes and family lessons [ways to behave to children, teached parents in programs statistically rise higher iq children]
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  • @Ambiguous
    There's zero evidence to suggest that Brahmins were selected for intelligence, or even that that they have higher intelligence.

    Exactly. The flaw in Karlin’s reasoning is this: the brahmins who underperform remain brahmins. There is no evidence that intelligent brahmins outbreed the not so intelligent ones. So there is no selection for intelligence.

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    • Replies: @Anciently
    Brahmins are not from a single ethnic stock. As various tribes and communities were assimilated into the Hindu social structure, each tribe's shaman or medicine man or priest or philosopher would be accepted as a Brahmin, while their ruler would become a Kshatriya, and things like that. That's why South Indian and Bengali Brahmins are significantly darker skinned than north-west Indians - there has clearly been a lot of gene flow into the brahmin pool. This would result in higher IQ genes flowing into the brahmin pool.
    And the reason for Jewish intelligence is given the same way, higher IQ Jews thrived and reproduced more than lower IQ ones since their professions involved intellectual activity.
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  • My post on Indian IQ (max potential is low to mid 90's) spawned an interesting analysis by commentator rec1man. It is not very well organized but he does have a ton of useful information that deserves to be highlighted. It's reprinted in full below interspersed with occasional commentary by myself: 75% of the Indian population...
  • @SP
    Agreed.

    So many 100+ or 110+ or 120+ IQ Brahmins become analysits, or profeesors , or researchers in the US? I don't find it's weird. Normal. But to suggest that their average IQ is anywhere near to those is delusional IMO.

    I guess perhaps the more straight forward ways to refute some wild guesses/claims are things like:

    * how could it possible that “100 or 100+ IQers” (in their multi millions) be so easily colonised, entirely, by 150,000 or so 100 IQ Brits for 300+ years? Could be due to some years of civil wars? Communism? For some years perhaps, but 300 years, and in its entirety?

    And because they are vegetarians? C’mon.

    * Even more interesting, perhaps British Raj, governed by 150,000 100 IQ Brits was much more advanced and prosperous as a whole , relatively speaking to its peers at a time, than today’s India governed by 50/60/80 millions (?) 100 or 105, or 120 IQ Brahmins!

    Think about that.

    * Brahmins have population about the size of 100+ IQ Germany, or 100 IQ Britain, or 100 IQFrance, yes? If their average IQ were anywhere near 100 or even mid 90s (Spain?), try to imagine what 1980’s India (fully independent in 1947) would have looked like?

    Yes, it would have looked like a superpower easily on par with the Soviet, giving the US a run for its money. It would have been technologically as (almost) advanced as Germany or France or Socialist Sweden ( some Indians blame it on their mild Socialism at a time– yes, the similar mild Sweden style Socialism). On per cap basis, the GDP of this 1980’s India would have been perhaps 10 folds as what is now…

    BECAUSE it would have been the same case as if to have transplanted entire German (or 100 IQ British or French) population to India in 1947, giving them the absolute leading roles in all political-social-economical spheres and assuming they speak fluent English mostly - just as Brahmins have been in India. All these could have been almost equally achieved even though prohibiting these Germans (or Brits/French) eating sausages since 1947 !

    So under such a hypothesis we should have had a technological and industrial superpower India as early as about 1980s, an “enlarged Germany”, or an “enlarged Britain” with 50 million Brits building India instead of 150,000 in British Raj? No?

    At least we should have found some signs of superpower in such “India”?

    Or at least a “Switzerland”?

    Or at least a tiny prosperous “100 IQ Brahmin town” as advanced as “Luxemburg”? Or “Little Paris , Little Frankfurt”?

    A “Little Madrid” of 95 IQ, perhaps?

    Or even tiny “Malaga” or “Maastricht”, no?

    Nada, Zilch. Instead the best we could manage to find is Slumdog-Millionaire-type as most advanced financial capital.

    Is that simple?

    Sorry to say so, but I’d really be struggling to understand what kind of stand-up skills it would take to explain all above away.

    “At least we should have found some signs of superpower in such “India”?

    Or at least a “Switzerland”?

    Or at least a tiny prosperous “100 IQ Brahmin town” as advanced as “Luxemburg”? Or “Little Paris , Little Frankfurt”?

    A “Little Madrid” of 95 IQ, perhaps?

    Or even tiny “Malaga” or “Maastricht”, no?

    Nada, Zilch. Instead the best we could manage to find is Slumdog-Millionaire-type as most advanced financial capital.

    Is that simple?”

    India is still a poor country, with too many people living there, despite many groups with high IQ’s, there is more to developing a society than simply IQ, and obviously the future will be quite different, since society develops from scratch, than rises up. There is little money or infrastructure for the higher IQ Indians to do anything, it will take time for India to develop to the levels of lets say Europe or America, it takes time, especially with a population with over a billion people, especially with little money or a destroyed society drained of its resources by the British. As the environment becomes better, the lower portion of society will have an increase in IQ, allowing the upper IQ caste to work better and fix the society, there are environmental and historical reasons why India is what it is, you dont need stand up skills to debunk this simple minded comment you just made, I would suggest you think your answers through a little more, than again this is the internet so anyone can say whatever delusional bullshit they want.

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  • @Car Guy
    I agree (see my comment above). Plus, how many IQ tests have been done on these Indian immigrants? I recall one IQ test claiming that African immigrants had an IQ of 112 or so. As a West African immigrant, I found that hard to believe.

    I have known many Indians from all grades and a very high IQ is not what jumps out at me. They are very tenacious, though.

    “I agree (see my comment above). Plus, how many IQ tests have been done on these Indian immigrants? I recall one IQ test claiming that African immigrants had an IQ of 112 or so. As a West African immigrant, I found that hard to believe.

    I have known many Indians from all grades and a very high IQ is not what jumps out at me. They are very tenacious, though.”

    Are you that brain dead? They have the highest IQ anywhere they go, sometimes even surpassing the Chinese! They have the highest income, they are overrepresented in academic fields, besides sports LOL, they are dominant in academic fields, to assume their IQ is not 112 is ridiculous. I guess you are forgetting that India has levels of malnourishment and iodine (goiter) deficiencies that rival Sub Sahara Africa, which (explains their LOW IQ).

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  • @Car Guy
    Just because higher cast Indians have the same Y-DNA as Russians / Slavs doesn't necessary mean they have the same IQ potential. Those Indians have been living in the subcontinent for quite a long time, so the climate pressures on IQ has had a lot of time to lose its effect. Toss in the fact that some mixing with the locals has taken place over the generations and you have more of a reason to believe that they don't have the same IQ potential.

    With regards to Indian Muslims being dumber than their Hindu counterparts, going by experience, they seem just as smart/dumb. The ones I have known have been Gujarati, and they are very much as entrepreneurial as the Patels. What they seem to lack are the networks. Nevertheless, aside from religion, they are the same people.

    By the way, I've gone to school with many Gujaratis and -- boy -- do those guys (both Hindus and Muslims) struggle in school.

    With regards to the Jains taking over the diamond industry from the Jews, I can't see why anyone would be surprised that the Jews would lose their solid grip on the trade. In our globalized world, business goes the way of cheap labor. Indian labor is one of the cheapest out there, which is why these Jains then to focus on the cheap diamonds, while the Jews still have a solid grip on the high-end diamonds and processes (those that require some rather hi-tech technology, which are mostly built in Israel). It also helps that the Jains have a long history with jewellery.

    What's surprising is that it isn't the Chinese that are superseding the Jews (maybe they have something in store for the industry). With business such as those dealing with the diamond trade, I think the strongest determining factor of success is having ambition and a close-knit family network. IQ is not as important; I can imagine that the business doesn't have a steep learning curve, especially in segments dealing with lower-end items.

    AK, what do you think is the average IQ of the top 20% of India's population?

    “Just because higher cast Indians have the same Y-DNA as Russians / Slavs doesn’t necessary mean they have the same IQ potential. Those Indians have been living in the subcontinent for quite a long time, so the climate pressures on IQ has had a lot of time to lose its effect. Toss in the fact that some mixing with the locals has taken place over the generations and you have more of a reason to believe that they don’t have the same IQ potential.”

    Perhaps the dumbest comment I have ever read, do you have any proof to justify that statement? How does the environment make them dumber? If anything the environment will have made them smarter, Furthermore one simply does not become retarded or lose (IQ) potential by simply living in an environment for a long time. Do you have any evidence that mixing with the natives declined Indian IQ? NO YOU DONT. You have no evidence to assume that the upper castes in India mixed with the natives declining IQ, it could be said that they mixed with the most intelligent native peoples out there, while the bottom portion of society mixed with the lower IQ natives, but in all honesty there is no evidence to sustain that the natives were dumber to begin with, or intermixing caused any decline in IQ.

    One needs to take in to account Iodine deficiency which is rampant in India, which explains why many kids die at early age, the brain just like anything grows to its fullest potential if given proper nourishment, unless you are an idiotic stormfronter who thinks genetics explains everything. The Flynn Effect is probably the biggest worst enemy of you white supremacists, that and the consensus amongst the scientific community that biological development is partially genetic and environmental. Indians have proven themselves to be quite intelligent, superior or on par with whites whenever they migrate to a first world country, (THEY HAVE PROVEN THEMSELVES). In Britain the Lower caste Dalits brought over as indentured servants are already surpassing whites in Britain in terms of success, lower castes Indians seem to be superior to even the average white, and forget about upper caste Indians, they have a higher average IQ which is rivaled by the Jews. Indian low IQ in India is explained by environmental factors,Indians regardless of caste seem to have a legacy of success wherever they go, they either surpass whites, rival whites or are pretty much almost as intelligent as whites, and Indians are a multiracial group of people, so its not an easy subject. Anyone who has worked with Indians knows they are a great asset to any business or venture, many whites on this page have a sense of supremacy which they are untitled to.

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    • Replies: @Saul
    "Perhaps the dumbest comment I have ever read, do you have any proof to justify that statement? How does the environment make them dumber? If anything the environment will have made them smarter.................Indian low IQ in India is explained by environmental factors"

    Dumb and dumber? :)

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  • @Car Guy
    Just because higher cast Indians have the same Y-DNA as Russians / Slavs doesn't necessary mean they have the same IQ potential. Those Indians have been living in the subcontinent for quite a long time, so the climate pressures on IQ has had a lot of time to lose its effect. Toss in the fact that some mixing with the locals has taken place over the generations and you have more of a reason to believe that they don't have the same IQ potential.

    With regards to Indian Muslims being dumber than their Hindu counterparts, going by experience, they seem just as smart/dumb. The ones I have known have been Gujarati, and they are very much as entrepreneurial as the Patels. What they seem to lack are the networks. Nevertheless, aside from religion, they are the same people.

    By the way, I've gone to school with many Gujaratis and -- boy -- do those guys (both Hindus and Muslims) struggle in school.

    With regards to the Jains taking over the diamond industry from the Jews, I can't see why anyone would be surprised that the Jews would lose their solid grip on the trade. In our globalized world, business goes the way of cheap labor. Indian labor is one of the cheapest out there, which is why these Jains then to focus on the cheap diamonds, while the Jews still have a solid grip on the high-end diamonds and processes (those that require some rather hi-tech technology, which are mostly built in Israel). It also helps that the Jains have a long history with jewellery.

    What's surprising is that it isn't the Chinese that are superseding the Jews (maybe they have something in store for the industry). With business such as those dealing with the diamond trade, I think the strongest determining factor of success is having ambition and a close-knit family network. IQ is not as important; I can imagine that the business doesn't have a steep learning curve, especially in segments dealing with lower-end items.

    AK, what do you think is the average IQ of the top 20% of India's population?

    I disagree.. you have no evidence that mixing with natives declined IQ. environmental affects did not drag down down IQ.. that is a low iq statement. Indians have same IQ potential as Slavs and Iranians… as proven.. you cant prove otherwise.

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  • By the one more anecdote:Kolkata,the capital of Bengal has first Nobel prize working in Asia in 4 different categories(excluding peace and chemistry) and worlds oldest civilization was also discovered by Bengali Rakhaldas Banerjee.Why India or China can not produce these type of luminaries working in their home?Strange,isn’t it!

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  • Again some stupid statistics by some stupid people.

    Historically the Bengal circle has produced best Physicist.inventor,literary ,Economist from entire Asia.

    Bengali elite class Hindu,Few Muslims and some Christian missionaries have led in this part of the world in various field.

    Invention:JC Bose-the inventor of wireless communication(Well IEEE is felicitating him on Sept 15 at his native home Kolkata with a plaque which makes Kolkata the 3rd city in Asia to recieve such honor.)He was truly a great polymath who also showed experimentally that plant has similar system just like human being.

    The current test tube baby method(IVF) was also made by Bengali Subhas Mukhopadhya in 1978 but his tragic death certainly cost him the 2010 Nobel prize which went to Cambridge Physician Robert Edwards.

    Amar Gopal Bose-speaker

    Jawed Karim-Architect of pay pal and co founder of you tube and already have won one invention of the year award.

    Engineering:Fazlur Rahman Khan of Bangladesh-the greatest structural Engineer of 20th century.

    Physicist:one of all time great and one of the father of quantum(specifically quantum statistics) and his work has already brought 10 Nobel prize winners among which Bose-Einstein condensate is one of the greatest discovery of all time.Even god particle is also one type of boson.there are other names from this region but I will discuss only the best names from Calcutta/Bengal.

    economics-Asia’s only Economist Nobel laureate Amartya Sen and Also legendary Micro credit pioneer Muhammad Yunus of Bangladesh.

    literature:First non European literature Nobel laureate Rabindranath Tagore(also the composer of 3 national anthems) and another great polymath.There are many others including several Booker or Pulitzer winners such as Ray,Jhumpa Lahiri etc.

    Religion and peace:Swami vivekananda was a Bengali mystic who established Hinduism as aworld religion at parliament of world religion in 1893.And there is Mother Teresa known for her charity work all over the world.

    In music and art:There are 17 Bengali Grammy award winners such as Ravishankar(who had a great impact on George Harrison/Beatles) and his daughter Nora Jones Shankar etc.in movie there is Satyajit Ray,one of the 10 greatest director in film History whose 5/6 movies feature in top 100 list of many magazines.

    Math and other field:Mount Everest height was calculated by Bengali Radhanath Sikdar in 1852 using spherical trigonometry.Recently a Bengali boy named Sourya Ray solved two critical puzzles set by Sir Issac Newton 350 years ago.The inaugural yuri Milner prize ,the hihest prize in world of science today was won by Bengali Physicist Ashoke Sen working in India.

    So in my opinion the Brahmins of Bengal have Highest IQ with average between 110-115 whle few other upper caste have Bengali have IQ just above 100(but these are only 15-20% of total Bengali Hindu population but Muslim will have IQ somewhere around 80-85 in Bengal.

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    • Replies: @Saul
    "So in my opinion the Brahmins of Bengal have Highest IQ with average between 110-115"

    And that explains why Bengal is synonymous with abject poverty and horrifying living conditions?

    Very funny how brahmins keep pulling such flattering numbers out of their arses.....and very telling how HBD bloggers keep buying their BS. ;)

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  • The Economist this week has an article which directly refutes the claim by Recman that the Indian Brahman has an IQ of anything close to 120. It also points to the future of the Indian IQ elites.

    The parsis of Mumbai is a tiny group of people originally from Iran. They moved to India to maintain their religion when the Muslims came. The Parsis are indeed similar to the Jews in two ways that the Brahmans are not.

    1. They were indeed persecuted by the majority in ways the Brahmans never were. The Brahmans have always been a privileged class while the Parsis were a tiny minority in a foreign land.
    2. Unlike the Brahmans, you can find amazing achievements from this tiny group of people where ever they went. Eddy Mercury was a Parsi. As was the founder of Tata. You can google this your self to find what their accomplishments have been.

    Their IQ was estimated to be about 120, higher the the Jews. Problem was, their numbers are tiny. In the 1950′s, when the Indian population was about 360 Million, their numbers were fewer than 120,000. their achievements, in both India and abroad, were wildly out of proportion to their actual numbers.Even if you compared them to the Brahmans. The Brahmans easily out number them 15:1 in 1950.

    Sadly, due to low fertility and to a smaller extent emigration, today they number 60,000 in India with mostly older folks. while the population of India is triple what it was in 1950.

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  • @SP
    Agreed.

    So many 100+ or 110+ or 120+ IQ Brahmins become analysits, or profeesors , or researchers in the US? I don't find it's weird. Normal. But to suggest that their average IQ is anywhere near to those is delusional IMO.

    I guess perhaps the more straight forward ways to refute some wild guesses/claims are things like:

    * how could it possible that “100 or 100+ IQers” (in their multi millions) be so easily colonised, entirely, by 150,000 or so 100 IQ Brits for 300+ years? Could be due to some years of civil wars? Communism? For some years perhaps, but 300 years, and in its entirety?

    And because they are vegetarians? C’mon.

    * Even more interesting, perhaps British Raj, governed by 150,000 100 IQ Brits was much more advanced and prosperous as a whole , relatively speaking to its peers at a time, than today’s India governed by 50/60/80 millions (?) 100 or 105, or 120 IQ Brahmins!

    Think about that.

    * Brahmins have population about the size of 100+ IQ Germany, or 100 IQ Britain, or 100 IQFrance, yes? If their average IQ were anywhere near 100 or even mid 90s (Spain?), try to imagine what 1980’s India (fully independent in 1947) would have looked like?

    Yes, it would have looked like a superpower easily on par with the Soviet, giving the US a run for its money. It would have been technologically as (almost) advanced as Germany or France or Socialist Sweden ( some Indians blame it on their mild Socialism at a time– yes, the similar mild Sweden style Socialism). On per cap basis, the GDP of this 1980’s India would have been perhaps 10 folds as what is now…

    BECAUSE it would have been the same case as if to have transplanted entire German (or 100 IQ British or French) population to India in 1947, giving them the absolute leading roles in all political-social-economical spheres and assuming they speak fluent English mostly - just as Brahmins have been in India. All these could have been almost equally achieved even though prohibiting these Germans (or Brits/French) eating sausages since 1947 !

    So under such a hypothesis we should have had a technological and industrial superpower India as early as about 1980s, an “enlarged Germany”, or an “enlarged Britain” with 50 million Brits building India instead of 150,000 in British Raj? No?

    At least we should have found some signs of superpower in such “India”?

    Or at least a “Switzerland”?

    Or at least a tiny prosperous “100 IQ Brahmin town” as advanced as “Luxemburg”? Or “Little Paris , Little Frankfurt”?

    A “Little Madrid” of 95 IQ, perhaps?

    Or even tiny “Malaga” or “Maastricht”, no?

    Nada, Zilch. Instead the best we could manage to find is Slumdog-Millionaire-type as most advanced financial capital.

    Is that simple?

    Sorry to say so, but I’d really be struggling to understand what kind of stand-up skills it would take to explain all above away.

    But these higher IQ brahmins are living with low IQ people who are liability.then affirmative actions and draining out of resources for the same..they are just five percent of the population..ur logic is flawed..if they had their own territory they would have developed Germany without any doubt.

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  • The question of Indian IQ is a big puzzle. Far trickier than China's IQ which I think I've basically figured out (101-102 today; 106-108 genetic ceiling). The PISA-adjusted IQ of India - as extrapolated from the states of Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh, which are relatively rich and are reputed to have good school systems...
  • Sorry brahmins like central asian iranian so there iq must be around 85 only.In business sector vaishya out perform brahmins

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  • My post on Indian IQ (max potential is low to mid 90's) spawned an interesting analysis by commentator rec1man. It is not very well organized but he does have a ton of useful information that deserves to be highlighted. It's reprinted in full below interspersed with occasional commentary by myself: 75% of the Indian population...
  • There are brahmins who don’t eat meat, but by and large they are strict vegetarians, even to the point of not using onion or garlic. Kshatriyas are meat eaters, so are muslims. Though most of the muslims in India seem to be converted lower caste hindus.
    Quotas are a big problem in India, seats are reserved for lower castes in elite insitutions such as IITs and IIMs.

    “Based on the results of IIT-JEE, those SC/ST candidates that qualify by a relaxed selection criteria of scoring more than about half of the marks scored by the last General Category student are admitted directly to IITs[1]. (In 2008, the ratio was 58% which further reduced to 50.2% in 2011).”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_policy_in_Indian_Institutes_of_Technology

    “Given the huge bias in sampling towards over-representing the lower end IQ, by the poverty pimp NGOs”

    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-10-01/edit-page/30230007_1_underweight-children-maternal-mortality-mortality-rate

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  • How about some REAL data on those poor South Asian Muslims in the UK.

    https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/glassessment.pdf

    I can’t believe the near complete lack of interest in this. It’s got data on every UK ethnic group, as well as other grouping based on thousands of pupils.

    Btw note how Irish Travellers score just as low as Roma. Obviously the low score of Irish Travellers is due to environmental factors while that of Roma is probably genetic. ;)

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  • The question of Indian IQ is a big puzzle. Far trickier than China's IQ which I think I've basically figured out (101-102 today; 106-108 genetic ceiling). The PISA-adjusted IQ of India - as extrapolated from the states of Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh, which are relatively rich and are reputed to have good school systems...
  • Ambiguous: “I never claimed they’re dull, did I? The data clearly shows they’re not, neither are other South Asians.”

    I couldn’t agree more, as I’ve been arguing that for a while. I think I need to send you a bottle of champagne…

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  • @Ryan G.
    What was your original point about Indians? Were you claiming that Indians in the UK were dull, or that they're doing well?

    I never claimed they’re dull, did I? The data clearly shows they’re not, neither are other South Asians.

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  • @Ambiguous
    I don't think he makes any good points.

    Anyway the data for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis is also relevant. Bangladeshis are the poorest group in this study with the least educated parents and the average of their quantitative and non-verbal scores is 97, just 4 points below whites that's a BIG gain on what they score as 3 year olds and 5 year olds when they're the lowest scoring group.

    What was your original point about Indians? Were you claiming that Indians in the UK were dull, or that they’re doing well?

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    • Replies: @Ambiguous
    I never claimed they're dull, did I? The data clearly shows they're not, neither are other South Asians.
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  • @Ryan G.
    And yes, while Rec1man makes some good points, much of what he says in unintelligible blather (both in grammar and in content). I believe that, corrected for nutrition+literacy, Indian IQ's would rise substantially across the board (from Dalit to Brahmin), but there is other evidence to demonstrate this than by claiming that Brahmins are supermen and the rest of India is made of donkeys.

    My two cents...

    I don’t think he makes any good points.

    Anyway the data for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis is also relevant. Bangladeshis are the poorest group in this study with the least educated parents and the average of their quantitative and non-verbal scores is 97, just 4 points below whites that’s a BIG gain on what they score as 3 year olds and 5 year olds when they’re the lowest scoring group.

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    • Replies: @Ryan G.
    What was your original point about Indians? Were you claiming that Indians in the UK were dull, or that they're doing well?
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  • @Ambiguous
    Thanks. It amazes me that while the UK regularly publishes quality data like this some people are STILL taking seriously nonsense by people like "recmann"!

    And yes, while Rec1man makes some good points, much of what he says in unintelligible blather (both in grammar and in content). I believe that, corrected for nutrition+literacy, Indian IQ’s would rise substantially across the board (from Dalit to Brahmin), but there is other evidence to demonstrate this than by claiming that Brahmins are supermen and the rest of India is made of donkeys.

    My two cents…

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    • Replies: @Ambiguous
    I don't think he makes any good points.

    Anyway the data for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis is also relevant. Bangladeshis are the poorest group in this study with the least educated parents and the average of their quantitative and non-verbal scores is 97, just 4 points below whites that's a BIG gain on what they score as 3 year olds and 5 year olds when they're the lowest scoring group.

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  • @Ambiguous
    Thanks. It amazes me that while the UK regularly publishes quality data like this some people are STILL taking seriously nonsense by people like "recmann"!

    Doesn’t this data suggest that the Indians in Britain are not all that dull??

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  • @Ambiguous
    Thanks. It amazes me that while the UK regularly publishes quality data like this some people are STILL taking seriously nonsense by people like "recmann"!

    (Sorry I’m slow in commenting, I work +6 days a week): Ambiguous, I’m looking at the data at the bottom page-the one for ethnicities-and it seems that the Indians in Britain are not doing terribly. They’re not Ashkenazis, but they seem to be doing fine. Am I missing something, or misunderstanding your comments?

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