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    Continuing my on-going series on the regional differences – genetic regional differences – between the different Euro-Americans in the United States and Canada, here I will present a series of maps demonstrating some of the evidence for the existence and significance of these differences, beyond the historical circumstances explored by David Hackett Fischer (DHF) in...
  • […] Cultures of North America A Tentative Ranking of the Clannishness of the “Founding Fathers Maps of the American Nations Demography is Destiny, American Nations Edition Assortative migration patterns A Dialect Map of […]

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  • Post updated, 6/10/14. See below! As we saw previously (see My Most Read Posts), my post Maps of the American Nations is the single most popular post so far here on my blog. Americans all over are supremely interested in both their origins and the reasons for the cultural quirks of the different American regions....
  • […] and, of course, jayman has been all over american nations issues for the past couple of years (see here and here, for […]

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  • […] differently on various social indicators. A great many of these indicators were featured in my post More Maps of the American Nations (as well as in the earlier post Maps of the American Nations). The pattern we see above (and many […]

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  • Continuing my on-going series on the regional differences – genetic regional differences – between the different Euro-Americans in the United States and Canada, here I will present a series of maps demonstrating some of the evidence for the existence and significance of these differences, beyond the historical circumstances explored by David Hackett Fischer (DHF) in...
  • […] were featured in my post More Maps of the American Nations (as well as in the earlier post Maps of the American Nations). The pattern we see above (and many other patterns)  – while clearly partially the result of […]

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  • Post updated, 6/10/14. See below! As we saw previously (see My Most Read Posts), my post Maps of the American Nations is the single most popular post so far here on my blog. Americans all over are supremely interested in both their origins and the reasons for the cultural quirks of the different American regions....
  • […] Civil War New England, no. But assortative migration has been powerful (see previous link) and continues on to this […]

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  • In this post, I don't mean in the way some people might think (though it does work in that sense too), I mean in terms of longevity. Mainstream thinkers, and some in the HBD-sphere, are fascinated and confounded by the persistent variation in health and lifespan of different peoples around the world. This has given...
  • Reblogged this on Philosophies of a Disenchanted Scholar and commented:
    Life extension is often a question of reducing mutative load.

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  • Post updated, 6/10/14. See below! As we saw previously (see My Most Read Posts), my post Maps of the American Nations is the single most popular post so far here on my blog. Americans all over are supremely interested in both their origins and the reasons for the cultural quirks of the different American regions....
  • And yet another great climate zone map which you can clearly see most of the American Nations! Not sure why I am so fascinated about this but I am!

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  • Continuing my on-going series on the regional differences – genetic regional differences – between the different Euro-Americans in the United States and Canada, here I will present a series of maps demonstrating some of the evidence for the existence and significance of these differences, beyond the historical circumstances explored by David Hackett Fischer (DHF) in...
  • In this post, I don't mean in the way some people might think (though it does work in that sense too), I mean in terms of longevity. Mainstream thinkers, and some in the HBD-sphere, are fascinated and confounded by the persistent variation in health and lifespan of different peoples around the world. This has given...
  • @franklindmadoff
    @JayMan:

    You may be interested in seeing some graphs I prepared recently on this topic.

    http://s207.photobucket.com/user/jhowns/media/calif_male_le_by_race_and_income.png.html
    http://s207.photobucket.com/user/jhowns/media/calif_female_le_by_race_and_income.png.html
    Derived from this research: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2849870/

    What I find interesting is:
    1) The SES gaps for both blacks and whites are very large, about 10 years (much larger than the white vs black gaps)
    2) The white-black gaps are pretty consistent with respect to SES (no massive leap out of the bottom quintile as some might expect)
    3) The poorest asians and hispanics far outlive most whites and blacks (asians across the entire spectrum)
    4) The asian and hispanic LE does not appear to change much with respect to SES

    Curiously (and perhaps unsurprisingly) the state wide averages show a similar pattern with respect to state wide median income (a very crude proxy for average group SES).

    http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb66/jhowns/LifeExpByStateAndRace.png~original

    Like you, I tend to lean more towards genetic explanations here, but I suppose what I find most striking is that even if it was mainly lifestyle the data would suggest that on some fairly basic things that ought to be under the control of the theoretical control of the individual (as opposed to taking the view that the environment is highly deterministic). It seems to me if these researchers really believed it was the actual behaviors of low income hispanics (or better yet asians) and that genetics plays little to no role then they'd should be able to replicate this and see some pretty pronounced effects....[I won't hold my breath]

    Thanks a lot for those! Sorry I didn’t get to comment on them before, but they are a fine addition to the information here. I may have to edit the post to incorporate them.

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  • Post updated, 6/10/14. See below! As we saw previously (see My Most Read Posts), my post Maps of the American Nations is the single most popular post so far here on my blog. Americans all over are supremely interested in both their origins and the reasons for the cultural quirks of the different American regions....
  • Continuing my on-going series on the regional differences – genetic regional differences – between the different Euro-Americans in the United States and Canada, here I will present a series of maps demonstrating some of the evidence for the existence and significance of these differences, beyond the historical circumstances explored by David Hackett Fischer (DHF) in...
  • Post updated, 6/10/14. See below! As we saw previously (see My Most Read Posts), my post Maps of the American Nations is the single most popular post so far here on my blog. Americans all over are supremely interested in both their origins and the reasons for the cultural quirks of the different American regions....
  • […] More Maps of the American Nations […]

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  • In his most recent post, Greg Cochran quipped that since corporal punishment is a quiet issue these days, it likely works. EDIT: That is, it works in keeping kids in line at school, and only that. Needless to say, the map of states with legal corporal punishment in schools follows the Map of the American...
  • […] the South is where you're most likely to run into acceptance and support for corporal punishment of children. […]

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  • Post updated, 6/10/14. See below! As we saw previously (see My Most Read Posts), my post Maps of the American Nations is the single most popular post so far here on my blog. Americans all over are supremely interested in both their origins and the reasons for the cultural quirks of the different American regions....
  • @Patrick C. Wentz
    Good map which shows NE movement across North America.

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/01/the-empires-of-american-english/

    @Patrick:

    Good find, but those were featured in the antecedent post to this one, Maps of the American Nations.

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  • Good map which shows NE movement across North America.

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/01/the-empires-of-american-english/

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @Patrick:

    Good find, but those were featured in the antecedent post to this one, Maps of the American Nations.

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  • […] of illustrating this theory is by using maps of ethnic correlates, maps I’ve come to think of as JayMaps, for obvious reasons. In this case I looked at vegetarianism and English ancestry in America. For […]

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  • Continuing my on-going series on the regional differences – genetic regional differences – between the different Euro-Americans in the United States and Canada, here I will present a series of maps demonstrating some of the evidence for the existence and significance of these differences, beyond the historical circumstances explored by David Hackett Fischer (DHF) in...
  • […] a more in depth look at the American Nations and their biological/historical origins look here at a post from […]

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  • Post updated, 6/10/14. See below! As we saw previously (see My Most Read Posts), my post Maps of the American Nations is the single most popular post so far here on my blog. Americans all over are supremely interested in both their origins and the reasons for the cultural quirks of the different American regions....
  • […] you should definitely check out! i don’t even know where they all are, but you can start with one of the most recent ones, if you haven’t seen it already. […]

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  • […] More Maps of the American Nations […]

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  • […] More Maps of the American Nations – Bigger and badder than the original, with more maps solidifying the distinction between the different American nations, with genetic evidence of these differences to boot. Also some discussion of the history of each, and the founding of certain areas. I also include personality data showing that the American nations don’t just exist on paper or in the voting booth. I use these to talk about the importance of self-sorting, founder effects, and Cochran’s & Harpending’s “boiling off” model to explain some of the differences we see. I also touch on immigration and the canard that immigrants “assimilate,” showing that that is pretty much a myth. A must see if you have not. […]

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  • Continuing my on-going series on the regional differences – genetic regional differences – between the different Euro-Americans in the United States and Canada, here I will present a series of maps demonstrating some of the evidence for the existence and significance of these differences, beyond the historical circumstances explored by David Hackett Fischer (DHF) in...
  • […] of JayMan’s pieces are masterpieces of blogging, if there can be such a thing. Look at his “Maps of the American Nations” post, for example: two thousand words, twenty maps, two video clips, and full engagement with […]

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  • Post updated, 6/10/14. See below! As we saw previously (see My Most Read Posts), my post Maps of the American Nations is the single most popular post so far here on my blog. Americans all over are supremely interested in both their origins and the reasons for the cultural quirks of the different American regions....
  • Outstanding. Another post to bookmark for sure, what a rich collection of maps you’ve put together here. I cannot imagine the time this must have taken. This is critical data that is missing from almost all analysis on ‘American’ cultural questions. I have to say that reading ‘Albion’s Seed’ this winter really opened my eyes to so many things. Your series on the American nations is, as far as I can tell, unique in the blogosphere. Chapeau bas, I look forward to reading more.

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  • Continuing my on-going series on the regional differences – genetic regional differences – between the different Euro-Americans in the United States and Canada, here I will present a series of maps demonstrating some of the evidence for the existence and significance of these differences, beyond the historical circumstances explored by David Hackett Fischer (DHF) in...
  • I don’t even know how I ended up here, but I thought this post was great.
    I do not know who you are but definitely you are going to a famous blogger if you
    are not already ;) Cheers!

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  • Post updated, 6/10/14. See below! As we saw previously (see My Most Read Posts), my post Maps of the American Nations is the single most popular post so far here on my blog. Americans all over are supremely interested in both their origins and the reasons for the cultural quirks of the different American regions....
  • @JayMan
    @bbbatez:

    Thank you!

    Your welcome and thank you.

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  • @bbbatez
    Reblogged this on bbbatez and commented:
    Maps of American nations. Well done and very interesting look at the political and cultural differences geographically.

    Thank you!

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    • Replies: @bbbatez
    Your welcome and thank you.
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  • Reblogged this on bbbatez and commented:
    Maps of American nations. Well done and very interesting look at the political and cultural differences geographically.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan
    @bbbatez:

    Thank you!

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  • Continuing my on-going series on the regional differences – genetic regional differences – between the different Euro-Americans in the United States and Canada, here I will present a series of maps demonstrating some of the evidence for the existence and significance of these differences, beyond the historical circumstances explored by David Hackett Fischer (DHF) in...
  • […] Tentative Ranking of the Clannishness of the “Founding Fathers” Flags of the American Nations Maps of the American Nations More Maps of the […]

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  • Post updated, 6/10/14. See below! As we saw previously (see My Most Read Posts), my post Maps of the American Nations is the single most popular post so far here on my blog. Americans all over are supremely interested in both their origins and the reasons for the cultural quirks of the different American regions....
  • […] my series on the American nations, particularly my earlier post, More Maps of the American Nations, I noted the great regional variation in guns and crime. Let us look at some of these again, […]

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  • […] I have recently updated two key posts, my post More Behavioral Genetic Facts and More Maps of the American Nations. […]

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  • fnn says:

    I was just looking inside Putnam’s book at Amazon. Was struck by how he quickly moves from brief description of old urban centers made up mostly of white ethnic (Irish, Ukrainians, Jews,etc.) neighborhoods to the the displacement of those same ethnic groups to “homogeneous” white suburbs. Funny how you can lose your ethnicity by moving a few miles. Putnam may be a sub rosa white nationalist.

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  • Woodard tried to say recently that the Democratic trend in tidewater Virginia was due to the “noblesse oblige” of the Virginia Cavaliers. Incredible. I wonder how many more facts he has stretched to accommodate his bullshitted theory.

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  • […] More Maps of the American Nations – from jayman. […]

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Jayman, on the map of counties where Obama got less than 20% of the white vote, four of the five Illinois counties are counties with large state prisons. I wonder if Edison Research got confused when looking at the counties demographics. For example, Logan County gave 33% of its vote to Obama. Its largest city is 93% non-Hispanic white & other than the state prisons, the remainder of the county is surely far whiter than the 93% non-Hispanic white county seat. Yet because of the two state prisons, the Census Bureau lists Logan County as 87.7% non-Hispanic white & 11.4% institutionalized.

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  • […] (See my preceding post, More Maps of the American Nations.) […]

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  • My apologies for being off topic, but I found a document online that may interest you. I came across it while searching for “behavioral genetics phrenology,” because after first coming across (a couple of months ago) b.g. being called phrenology I have seen it several more times. So, here is the RationalWiki (as in, I suppose, anyone who does not agree is irrational) entry on Biological Determinism. It is a sort of compendium of the sorts of things that your and related blogs seem to be struggling against. It may be useful as specimen collection, or just entertaining. In the past I have considered writing a parody document along this line, but I have been summarily preempted. I am sending a similar/identical comment to several other blogs, this is too good not to share.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biological_determinism

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  • Wow, one of the longest Jayman’s posts since ages. Very interesting read, in addition.

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  • The link to 3rd gen Asian-American IQ is broken, the correct URL is http://pseudoerasmus.com/2014/05/21/economic-growth-human-biodiversity/comment-page-1/#comment-19 .

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  • “Today these Finnish-Americans appear to be generally more Left-leaning, much like their cousins across the Atlantic.”

    Actually, much of the Finnish-American population descends from leftists who left Finland because of anti-left persecution. Tons of socialists moved to the United States (and other countries of the Americas) because they allowed greater freedom for socialist movements than either the Tsarist empire or newly independent Finland which up to the 1930s was extremely hostile to anything even remotely left-wing. (Long story short, independence was followed by a left-wing coup, a Civil War which the left lost and tens of thousands of Reds died in the White revenge terror. After the Civil War the victors were extremely hostile to the left and large numbers of Red Finns moved to the US to “build socialism” there when even mentioning socialism in Finland could get you beaten up.)

    There was also mass migration of Finns from the US to the Soviet Union between the world wars:

    https://www.google.fi/search?q=karelia+fever

    It ended badly and that also ended much of the right/left hostility in Finland, the left stopped being pro-Soviet after all those massacres right over the border. Finland has a really bizarre history after WWII which has left us with a really unusual society where we’re much more right-wing than, say, Swedes but we’ve gone even further with the Swedish social democratic model because of Soviet pressures. It’s unraveling now and the left has been slowly collapsing since the USSR fell.

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  • ckp says:

    The North Korea regime collapses tomorrow and there’s miraculously no civil war or humanitarian crisis. The two countries begin a long and painful process of reunification, like East/West Germany on crack. ~70 years of despotic Communism and famine have left their mark on North Korean culture and even their bodies (Norkies are several inches shorter than their Southern cousins), but what about genes? Are 3-4 generations of zero introgression and (possibly) insane selection pressures on conformity enough to make Northerners notably genetically distinct from Southerners? How might this impact re-integration?

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  • Jay, in your (fabulous) analyses of the “American Nations” you overlook an interesting dimension of US history and genome: the Forest Finns of the 17th century in the mid-Atlantic. They came to be known as the Delaware Finns, and one reason you probably haven’t heard of them is that they were lumped in with their imperial absorbers in Sweden and recorded as Swedes, not Finns, in colonial records in New Sweden and later under Dutch and English rule.

    But in local records of the time, they were very much recognized as Finns, and as extremely different from the more agricultural/urbanized Swedes in New Sweden, and later Dutch and English. They manifested the close-in breeding of pre-postmodern Finns, and were recorded by the Dutch, British, French, and others as incredibly robust, fecund, self-sufficient, feisty, wicked smart, slightly spooky/dangerous, outstanding toolmakers, and in cahoots with the Lenni Lenape (local “Indians”).

    It was on this pre-existing loom that the English wove their colonial presence.

    Their (our) origins: between 1638 and 1656 a small but coherent and ultimately impactful migration of metsasuomalaiset proceeded from upper middle Sweden (mostly Varmland and Dalarna counties), of these indigenous Finno-Ugric people from today’s Eastern Finland (Savo and Karjala provinces) who had previously been removed from their forestlands where they practiced huuhta (swidden) agriculture. Those lands were wanted by Swedish royalty for manufacture of charcoal for use by the burgeoning steel and arms industries. Also around that time, Finns were fighting as mercenary cavalrymen in the Thirty Years’ War, and Sweden was beginning to persecute and outlaw as witches menfolk who practiced the older animist/pagan/song-and-drumming-based religion.

    These several hundreds of metsas located to the Delaware Valley, became extremely successful farmers and pioneers, some intermarried with Swedes and a few Dutch and English (and others), and many radiated out from there, particularly after “The Quaker Invasion” of the 1680s. Most of them stayed close in in Pennsylvania, Delaware, New Jersey, and Maryland, and “close in” is relative given that these Finns engaged in the “long hunt” tradition that could take them far away on boat-and-portage hunting, trapping, fishing, and gathering expeditions.

    A significant movement of them proceeded into the Appalachians and then farther west still. In PA/NJ they were among the American Revolutionaries (including ancestors of mine), and in fact Finns had been agitating for the colonies’ independence from Europe back into the 1600s.

    You might enjoy the late Terry Jordan’s and Matti Kaups’s book on the topic, The American Backwoods Frontier. Jordan (a geographer at UT-Austin) long argued that there is a coherent, westward flowing complex of material culture evidence for Forest Finns being the only eastern seaboard colonial people from the Old World who were genetically and culturally pre-adapted to enter and open a largely forested new continent.

    http://books.google.com/books/about/The_American_backwoods_frontier.html?id=3x8MAAAAYAAJ

    If you drop me a line, I can share more and connect you with fairly extensive resources. It might be an interesting line of inquiry for you. It’s not certain how many Americans can trace ancestry to these people, but it’s surely in the millions…and those of us who were still in the valley in the 1980s had quite coherent lineages. I come from an unbroken paternal line going back ten generations, so I also inherited a bunch of stories that didn’t make much sense till I learned in the past decade just how coherent this migration and its people were. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

    Tikka

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  • In this post, I don't mean in the way some people might think (though it does work in that sense too), I mean in terms of longevity. Mainstream thinkers, and some in the HBD-sphere, are fascinated and confounded by the persistent variation in health and lifespan of different peoples around the world. This has given...
  • […] we’ve seen previously in my post, HBD is Life and Death, the health outcomes of many American regions can be correlated to ethnic ancestry. Most poignant […]

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  • In his most recent post, Greg Cochran quipped that since corporal punishment is a quiet issue these days, it likely works. EDIT: That is, it works in keeping kids in line at school, and only that. Needless to say, the map of states with legal corporal punishment in schools follows the Map of the American...
  • […] seen previously in my post Another Map of the American Nations: School Corporal Punishment. (Red = allowed. Blue = not allowed). The red state alliance of Greater Appalachia, the Deep South, […]

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  • Continuing my on-going series on the regional differences – genetic regional differences – between the different Euro-Americans in the United States and Canada, here I will present a series of maps demonstrating some of the evidence for the existence and significance of these differences, beyond the historical circumstances explored by David Hackett Fischer (DHF) in...
  • […] we saw previously (see My Most Read Posts), my post Maps of the American Nations is the single most popular post so far here on my blog. Americans all over are supremely interested […]

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  • […] 1.Maps of the American Nations – My post based on the works of David Hackett Fischer (Albion’s Seed: Four British Folkways in America (America: A Cultural History) and Maine’s own Colin Woodard (American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America). Here, I recount the story as told by these men and add supporting evidence for the existence of the ethnocultural nations as delineated by the latter. In addition, I give background on and evidence for the genetic underpinnings of these distinctions, relying on the work of the venerable hbd* chick. I feature plenty of maps, showing how the American nations live on in our politics, our language, even our drugs. The primary message is that HBD works within nation states, and that a group, like White Americans, should NOT be thought of a monolithic collection at all, but a highly diverse and significantly varied collection of distinct peoples. […]

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  • Reblogged this on Kent's space.

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  • […] found maps! And they explain American (United States) culture: Jayman's Blog: Maps of the American Nation A lot of neat ancestry and settlement maps that square with cultural and political differences. […]

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  • […] 9/18/13 Maps of the American Nations […]

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  • […] you wonder sometime. Why haven’t the corrupt institutions of America polluted them yet? [See Maps of the American Nations and Rural White Liberals – a Key to Understanding the Political […]

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  • In his most recent post, Greg Cochran quipped that since corporal punishment is a quiet issue these days, it likely works. EDIT: That is, it works in keeping kids in line at school, and only that. Needless to say, the map of states with legal corporal punishment in schools follows the Map of the American...
  • Maybe it has some correlation with how many kids a family has. When you have one child, he is a precious snowflake. When you have five, well, you have to get them under control and in line. It would take all of your time to coax feral kids into tolerable submission. I have kids that are not not not just easily submissive and obedient. I am sure that clever, quiet, compliant folks breed and produce the same. Wild folks like I was as a child, produce wild kids. Duh. Just be glad they are doing something to tame them, so they don’t come after your precious little snowflakes. Also, parents who sign the form permitting corporal punishment are probably using it at home! Another duh.

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  • Continuing my on-going series on the regional differences – genetic regional differences – between the different Euro-Americans in the United States and Canada, here I will present a series of maps demonstrating some of the evidence for the existence and significance of these differences, beyond the historical circumstances explored by David Hackett Fischer (DHF) in...
  • […] I hope Wade also realizes that just as not all human populations are interchangeable, not all Europeans are interchangeable. Nor, for that, matter, are all White Americans interchangeable. […]

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  • […] of the American Nations The Cavaliers Maps of the American Nations Rural White Liberals – a Key to Understanding the Political […]

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  • In this post, I don't mean in the way some people might think (though it does work in that sense too), I mean in terms of longevity. Mainstream thinkers, and some in the HBD-sphere, are fascinated and confounded by the persistent variation in health and lifespan of different peoples around the world. This has given...
  • I suspect that the bad part of Kentucky-West Virginia is the center of the coal mining region. Coal mining used to employ huge numbers of workers, but the UMW pursued higher wages through strikes, which led to major increases in productivity, so mining employment is now way down. Coal mining was associated with one major occupational disease, black lung disease, but it’s not implausible that there are other environmental hazards remaining in the region. Another factor is likely that a lot of the more ambitious people have moved out, leaving behind the less energetic and more fatalistic.

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  • “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” Max Planck

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  • @Anonymous
    OT, but you haven't posted in a while and I saw your comments on Twitter regarding the Sanders' & Bailey study on gay brothers (which hasn't been published yet). I guess Bailey presented the results (or part of them) in Chicago last week.

    I can't help but think of Cochran's "geneticists do what they do" mantra when it comes to this topic. (Although Bailey is not a geneticist, he works frequently with Sanders.) GC seems to value Bailey's work).

    What gets to me are the headlines, ranging from the ridiculous, "Geneticists prove gay is in the genes," to the better "Genetics is not the entire story of homosexuality" and the inconsistency and misleading write ups in the articles. Even Bailey's words appear designed to be pc as in " there may be genes" followed by "we found evidence for two sets that affect whether a man is gay or straight." "May be " versus "we found evidence" sounds quite contradictory. The political game here is the same ole, same ole.

    And Sanders: " 'We don’t think genetics is the whole story. It’s not. We have a gene that contributes to homosexuality, but you could say it is linked to heterosexuality. It is the variation.'"

    Am I right? Those words say NOTHING.


    From this link: http://news.yahoo.com/gay-dna-221200774--politics.html (Don't you just love the headline? "Do you have gay DNA?"


    "Bailey told The London Times, 'Sexual orientation has nothing to do with choice. Our findings suggest there may be genes at play and we found evidence for two sets that affect whether a man is gay or straight.' However, Bailey's research does not support the existence of a sole 'gay gene.' He said sexuality was also formed, to a significant degree, by environmental factors. 'Don't confuse 'environmental' with 'socially acquired'," he said. 'Environment means anything that is not in our DNA at birth, and that includes a lot of stuff that is not social.' Dr. Alan Sanders, associate professor of psychiatry at Northwestern University, who led the study, told The Telegraph, 'We don’t think genetics is the whole story. It’s not. We have a gene that contributes to homosexuality, but you could say it is linked to heterosexuality. It is the variation.'

    "Bailey told The London Times, 'Sexual orientation has nothing to do with choice. Our findings suggest there may be genes at play and we found evidence for two sets that affect whether a man is gay or straight.' However, Bailey's research does not support the existence of a sole 'gay gene.'He said sexuality was also formed, to a significant degree, by environmental factors. 'Don't confuse 'environmental' with 'socially acquired'," he said. 'Environment means anything that is not in our DNA at birth, and that includes a lot of stuff that is not social.' Dr. Alan Sanders, associate professor of psychiatry at Northwestern University, who led the study, told The Telegraph, 'We don’t think genetics is the whole story. It’s not. We have a gene that contributes to homosexuality, but you could say it is linked to heterosexuality. It is the variation.'"

    I don't know much about the politically smart way of doing business as researchers, but Sanders, the lead researcher, has a site devoted to this study, all of which seemed to be a way of assuring the gay lobby that they shouldn't worry about the research nor the what it might actually find. For a long time the site updated the public (as if the grant was tied to such an update) about the course of the study and it included media coverage updates of the study. Then, for years, nothing.)

    Of course, the practical side of all that public relations is that he needed to see to it he got enough English speaking gay volunteers, the goal being 1000 pairs of gay brothers. It appears they fell short of their targeted sample size, but still, the sample size is large. Nonetheless, Sanders appeared last year in a video made by Truth Wins Out, a GLBT group wanting to spread the word that gays are gay by nature not by choice and devoted to stamping out therapists who claim to be able to help men who wish not to be gay to tamp down their homosexual desires.

    I don't have anything against that group and their stated goals of reducing discrimination against homosexuals, but it seemed that Sanders was essentially misleading or at least overstating what genetics research has actually "revealed" about male homosexuality.

    To say it's genetic....but only in part...and that only some of their sample showed linkage to xq28 or that only some showed similarities on chromosome 8 says little, doesn't it?

    Hope you do a post on it when it comes out and give your take.

    @thoward:

    I think you’ve pretty much covered what I would say on the matter, beyond what I’ve already said over at Audacious Epigone’s.

    Fantastic comment.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    OT, but you haven’t posted in a while and I saw your comments on Twitter regarding the Sanders’ & Bailey study on gay brothers (which hasn’t been published yet). I guess Bailey presented the results (or part of them) in Chicago last week.

    I can’t help but think of Cochran’s “geneticists do what they do” mantra when it comes to this topic. (Although Bailey is not a geneticist, he works frequently with Sanders.) GC seems to value Bailey’s work).

    What gets to me are the headlines, ranging from the ridiculous, “Geneticists prove gay is in the genes,” to the better “Genetics is not the entire story of homosexuality” and the inconsistency and misleading write ups in the articles. Even Bailey’s words appear designed to be pc as in ” there may be genes” followed by “we found evidence for two sets that affect whether a man is gay or straight.” “May be ” versus “we found evidence” sounds quite contradictory. The political game here is the same ole, same ole.

    And Sanders: ” ‘We don’t think genetics is the whole story. It’s not. We have a gene that contributes to homosexuality, but you could say it is linked to heterosexuality. It is the variation.’”

    Am I right? Those words say NOTHING.

    From this link: http://news.yahoo.com/gay-dna-221200774–politics.html (Don’t you just love the headline? “Do you have gay DNA?”

    “Bailey told The London Times, ‘Sexual orientation has nothing to do with choice. Our findings suggest there may be genes at play and we found evidence for two sets that affect whether a man is gay or straight.’ However, Bailey’s research does not support the existence of a sole ‘gay gene.’ He said sexuality was also formed, to a significant degree, by environmental factors. ‘Don’t confuse ‘environmental’ with ‘socially acquired’,” he said. ‘Environment means anything that is not in our DNA at birth, and that includes a lot of stuff that is not social.’ Dr. Alan Sanders, associate professor of psychiatry at Northwestern University, who led the study, told The Telegraph, ‘We don’t think genetics is the whole story. It’s not. We have a gene that contributes to homosexuality, but you could say it is linked to heterosexuality. It is the variation.’

    “Bailey told The London Times, ‘Sexual orientation has nothing to do with choice. Our findings suggest there may be genes at play and we found evidence for two sets that affect whether a man is gay or straight.’ However, Bailey’s research does not support the existence of a sole ‘gay gene.’He said sexuality was also formed, to a significant degree, by environmental factors. ‘Don’t confuse ‘environmental’ with ‘socially acquired’,” he said. ‘Environment means anything that is not in our DNA at birth, and that includes a lot of stuff that is not social.’ Dr. Alan Sanders, associate professor of psychiatry at Northwestern University, who led the study, told The Telegraph, ‘We don’t think genetics is the whole story. It’s not. We have a gene that contributes to homosexuality, but you could say it is linked to heterosexuality. It is the variation.’”

    I don’t know much about the politically smart way of doing business as researchers, but Sanders, the lead researcher, has a site devoted to this study, all of which seemed to be a way of assuring the gay lobby that they shouldn’t worry about the research nor the what it might actually find. For a long time the site updated the public (as if the grant was tied to such an update) about the course of the study and it included media coverage updates of the study. Then, for years, nothing.)

    Of course, the practical side of all that public relations is that he needed to see to it he got enough English speaking gay volunteers, the goal being 1000 pairs of gay brothers. It appears they fell short of their targeted sample size, but still, the sample size is large. Nonetheless, Sanders appeared last year in a video made by Truth Wins Out, a GLBT group wanting to spread the word that gays are gay by nature not by choice and devoted to stamping out therapists who claim to be able to help men who wish not to be gay to tamp down their homosexual desires.

    I don’t have anything against that group and their stated goals of reducing discrimination against homosexuals, but it seemed that Sanders was essentially misleading or at least overstating what genetics research has actually “revealed” about male homosexuality.

    To say it’s genetic….but only in part…and that only some of their sample showed linkage to xq28 or that only some showed similarities on chromosome 8 says little, doesn’t it?

    Hope you do a post on it when it comes out and give your take.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @thoward:

    I think you've pretty much covered what I would say on the matter, beyond what I've already said over at Audacious Epigone's.

    Fantastic comment.

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  • @szopen
    Interesting, especially after reading Greg Cochran blog entry: NE population have lower life expectancy, while they have higher percentage of ancient populations descended from huter-gatherers. Could that be simply that Spaniards descend more from population of farmers, who had more evolutionary time to adopt to farming lifestyle, while NE europeans descend from people, who adopted farming more recent, therefore havinf less time to adopt?

    “while NE europeans descend from people, who adopted farming more recent, therefore havinf less time to adopt”

    yep, also early days but maybe different amounts or *different bits* of Neanderthal admixture.

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  • @szopen
    Interesting, especially after reading Greg Cochran blog entry: NE population have lower life expectancy, while they have higher percentage of ancient populations descended from huter-gatherers. Could that be simply that Spaniards descend more from population of farmers, who had more evolutionary time to adopt to farming lifestyle, while NE europeans descend from people, who adopted farming more recent, therefore havinf less time to adopt?

    Yup, give me a minute… ;)

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  • @vijay
    You still dont accept debit cards!

    That’s strange. It should. I will take a look at it!

    Hold on to those bucks! ;)

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  • @Sisyphean
    The best example of diet effects for me has always been the North American Natives. Tall, strong and lean people in every description at contact, only to be killed in droves and forced onto reservations where they've been fed low grade crap, chiefly refined wheat flour, refined white sugar, and processed lard, ever since. Now when you ask them about their traditional foods, you're far more likely to hear about fry bread (wheat flour fried in lard caked in sugar) than succotash or pemmican. These people have the highest rates of obesity and diabetes II in the USA, bar none.

    Interestingly, those that have gone back to their traditional foods have seen reversal of the diabetes and obesity but it's nigh impossible to take away addictive things like sugar (and white flour is basically also just sugar) and many can't stop themselves from going back to the cheap sugar trough. Like alcohol the sugar genie isn't going back into the bottle and those who haven't had centuries of adaptation to handle it will suffer.

    That said, I'm not saying diet is the only thing that matters, far from it, I'm just providing an extreme counterpoint. Western Europeans, especially the core, can tolerate sugar, alcohol, and flour in greater amounts than other populations but that doesn't mean those things are good in unlimited quantities. Of course, when you do have unlimited quantities it's the impulsive who tend to overindulge, while the circumspect do not.

    ~S

    @Tikka Linnut “You suggest that “North American Natives” are somehow genetically pure throwbacks to 10,000 years ago”

    I suggest nothing of the sort. I said ‘at contact’ meaning the accounts of the early European settlers after 1492.

    I am well aware that there has been interbreeding between members of the native tribes and various European groups but I find it hard to believe that you’re making the case that the gross diabesity among extant Native American populations is due to this genetic admixture. The rate of Diabetes type 2 in the worst U.S. State (West Virginia) is about 12% according to http://www.americashealthrankings.org whereas Native populations are routinely in the 14+ percent range and in the tribes in Arizona some are higher than 35% (cite CDC website: http://www.cdc.gov/media/matte/2011/11_diabetes_Native_American.pdf?s_cid=2011_11_diabetesnativeamerican). Now bear in mind I am NOT saying that there is anything wrong with the Native peoples, just that they are not adapted to the diet Europeans brought with them namely buttloads of sugar, super refined wheat, distilled alcohol. Those things mess up Europeans too, given enough time and quantity but they tolerate them better and as Jayman has pointed out: higher IQ people with better impulse control are less susceptible to over indulgence.

    ~S

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  • @Sisyphean
    The best example of diet effects for me has always been the North American Natives. Tall, strong and lean people in every description at contact, only to be killed in droves and forced onto reservations where they've been fed low grade crap, chiefly refined wheat flour, refined white sugar, and processed lard, ever since. Now when you ask them about their traditional foods, you're far more likely to hear about fry bread (wheat flour fried in lard caked in sugar) than succotash or pemmican. These people have the highest rates of obesity and diabetes II in the USA, bar none.

    Interestingly, those that have gone back to their traditional foods have seen reversal of the diabetes and obesity but it's nigh impossible to take away addictive things like sugar (and white flour is basically also just sugar) and many can't stop themselves from going back to the cheap sugar trough. Like alcohol the sugar genie isn't going back into the bottle and those who haven't had centuries of adaptation to handle it will suffer.

    That said, I'm not saying diet is the only thing that matters, far from it, I'm just providing an extreme counterpoint. Western Europeans, especially the core, can tolerate sugar, alcohol, and flour in greater amounts than other populations but that doesn't mean those things are good in unlimited quantities. Of course, when you do have unlimited quantities it's the impulsive who tend to overindulge, while the circumspect do not.

    ~S

    You suggest that “North American Natives” are somehow genetically pure throwbacks to 10,000 years ago…when nothing could be further from the truth…and especially given that tribal membership these days can involve as little as a 1/32 “blood quantum.” It may well be the Appalachian hardscrabble genes kicking in where frybread addiction and the resulting obesity are concerned.

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  • You still dont accept debit cards!

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @vijay:

    That's strange. It should. I will take a look at it!

    Hold on to those bucks! ;)

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Interesting, especially after reading Greg Cochran blog entry: NE population have lower life expectancy, while they have higher percentage of ancient populations descended from huter-gatherers. Could that be simply that Spaniards descend more from population of farmers, who had more evolutionary time to adopt to farming lifestyle, while NE europeans descend from people, who adopted farming more recent, therefore havinf less time to adopt?

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    Yup, give me a minute... ;)
    , @Greying Wanderer
    "while NE europeans descend from people, who adopted farming more recent, therefore havinf less time to adopt"

    yep, also early days but maybe different amounts or *different bits* of Neanderthal admixture.

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  • […] HBD is Life and Death – from jayman. […]

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  • @Luke Lea
    Having recently reached the beginning of my 73rd year in this world and looking back one of the things I notice is how powerful a force is conformity. Most people want to fit in way more than they want to discover what is true or false. Strangest of all the smarter you are (at least up to a point) the stronger this force is. You see it on campus of course in the form of political correctness. You see it in the highest reaches of academic economics is the almost totemic worship of the phrase -- not the reality, mind, or even the "official" orthodox view which you can find in advanced textbooks on the subject -- of free trade. You identify here a third area (there are probably more?) of medical research, especially in things related to diet and health. It is a little like fashion. In fact it is fashion. And just like new fashions and changes in fashion it almost impossible to figure out where the fashions began. Sometimes in Paris, sometimes on the streets of Haight Ashbury, sometimes (who knows) in the secret sanctums of the gay fashionistas. I think LSD in the sixties had a lot to do with the freakish new fashions in opinion -- e.g., naive cosmopolitanism (remember John Lennon's Imagine -- don't tell me he wasn't stoned when he wrote that). Hell, the whole phenomenon of multiculturalism is probably a mind artifact of those psychadelic drugs which were so ubiquitous among the college-age elite. Don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about. I was there. I saw it with my own eyes. I even experienced a little of it myself. Those drugs were a cultural solvent that melted away the conditioned reflexes that established the old fashions (I think it was liberalism) and replaced them with these ridiculous forms of new craziness that are now wrecking our society.

    Another wrinkle is that the lower classes are much more immune to these kinds of influences. They are less conformist in many ways --e.g., in New England our cultural betters talk about the importance of racial tolerance, equality, etc.., but down here if you go to the graduation ceremonies for people getting their GED's (or whatever those high school equivalents are called) you see biracial couples all over the place.

    Anyway, the notion that human beings, the vast majority, are rational creatures is clearly a joke. Only a few eccentrics fill the bill, and not many of them.

    I'm talking about you JayMan! BTW I tried to make a contribution but PayPal wouldn't accept my debit card. Whatta ya supposed to do?

    : i liked (& am still pondering) your comment about lower classes/lower SES being less conformist: “come to low SES-Land, where PC hasn’t caught on!” – an excellent observation!

    the liberal elite PC-hive-mind is rampant – socially rewarding each other for their “enlightened” ways. like unto a religion, yea, verily, & thus it came to pass:

    “ALL people are exactly equal, ALL group means are exactly the same… We liberal elites believe in evolution (except the bit about different geographic groups with different environmental selection pressures selecting for different traits) …nothing to see there, move along!” :)

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  • @gerf
    Yeah, it's difficult to take this seriously. Your monolithic rambling essay apparently amounts to: "Complex models are hard". Is this any great insight? Is there any reason to suspect that mainstream models aren't the best models based on current understanding? Sure, better models will arise in the future, this all seems like tilting at windmills to me.

    You are making the perfect the enemy of the good, and you've got nothing better than the good to offer up instead.

    Based on the fact that I was off by “quite a bit”, about the most constructive thing I can add to the discussion is the suggestion that you make an attempt to present your main point more clearly.

    As for being an advocate of evidence based medicine, there are certainly some other very good bloggers in that space, Steve Novella being primary.

    Good luck with your blog!

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  • @gerf
    I appreciate the authoritarian sentiment. I've read them.

    IQ and Death: Further demonstration that you don't understand correlation. There isn't any semantic sense to a "true correlation". In fact, that post does a great job of illustrating how hard it is to model complex systems.

    Even George W. Bush Has Heart Disease: Generally incomprehensible data dump. Are introductory paragraphs and conclusion anathema or something? I think you're trying to say: "The jury is still out w.r.t exercise and heart disease." Sounds rather mundane, and the presentation is a mess.

    Trans Fat Hysteria and the Mystery of Heart Disease: A little more easy to follow, but looks to mirror the Bush one as: "The jury is still out w.r.t trans-fats and heart disease."

    How far off am I?

    Quite a bit, because nowhere did you mention my main point, that health advice we’re given doesn’t necessarily have the support of the evidence.

    Now that you’ve left your piece, I think I’m done with you, since you’re not adding anything to the discussion. Talk about not saying much. If I were you, I’d choose wisely about my next comment.

    And about my “authoritarian” sentiment, on this blog, I am King, Lord, and Emperor. Don’t like it? Don’t comment. Capisce?

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  • @gerf
    Yeah, it's difficult to take this seriously. Your monolithic rambling essay apparently amounts to: "Complex models are hard". Is this any great insight? Is there any reason to suspect that mainstream models aren't the best models based on current understanding? Sure, better models will arise in the future, this all seems like tilting at windmills to me.

    You are making the perfect the enemy of the good, and you've got nothing better than the good to offer up instead.

    I appreciate the authoritarian sentiment. I’ve read them.

    IQ and Death: Further demonstration that you don’t understand correlation. There isn’t any semantic sense to a “true correlation”. In fact, that post does a great job of illustrating how hard it is to model complex systems.

    Even George W. Bush Has Heart Disease: Generally incomprehensible data dump. Are introductory paragraphs and conclusion anathema or something? I think you’re trying to say: “The jury is still out w.r.t exercise and heart disease.” Sounds rather mundane, and the presentation is a mess.

    Trans Fat Hysteria and the Mystery of Heart Disease: A little more easy to follow, but looks to mirror the Bush one as: “The jury is still out w.r.t trans-fats and heart disease.”

    How far off am I?

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @gerf:

    Quite a bit, because nowhere did you mention my main point, that health advice we're given doesn't necessarily have the support of the evidence.

    Now that you've left your piece, I think I'm done with you, since you're not adding anything to the discussion. Talk about not saying much. If I were you, I'd choose wisely about my next comment.

    And about my "authoritarian" sentiment, on this blog, I am King, Lord, and Emperor. Don't like it? Don't comment. Capisce?

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  • @gerf
    Your response doesn't appear to be well formed. Am I sure of what? What is it you think I disbelieve?

    If your thesis was more (or less) profound than "Complex models are hard" it might serve you well to state your thesis clearly.

    Read these posts:

    IQ and Death

    Even George W. Bush Has Heart Disease

    Trans Fat Hysteria and the Mystery of Heart Disease

    Do not comment on this again until you have done so.

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  • @gerf
    Yeah, it's difficult to take this seriously. Your monolithic rambling essay apparently amounts to: "Complex models are hard". Is this any great insight? Is there any reason to suspect that mainstream models aren't the best models based on current understanding? Sure, better models will arise in the future, this all seems like tilting at windmills to me.

    You are making the perfect the enemy of the good, and you've got nothing better than the good to offer up instead.

    Your response doesn’t appear to be well formed. Am I sure of what? What is it you think I disbelieve?

    If your thesis was more (or less) profound than “Complex models are hard” it might serve you well to state your thesis clearly.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @gerf:

    Read these posts:

    IQ and Death

    Even George W. Bush Has Heart Disease

    Trans Fat Hysteria and the Mystery of Heart Disease

    Do not comment on this again until you have done so.

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  • @Denise
    Just curious - have you received any Bitcoins?

    Yes, why?

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  • @gerf
    Yeah, it's difficult to take this seriously. Your monolithic rambling essay apparently amounts to: "Complex models are hard". Is this any great insight? Is there any reason to suspect that mainstream models aren't the best models based on current understanding? Sure, better models will arise in the future, this all seems like tilting at windmills to me.

    You are making the perfect the enemy of the good, and you've got nothing better than the good to offer up instead.

    A) You sure? See my previous posts on the topic (see the category).

    B) You’re free to disbelieve, but in the future, please offer a more substantive criticism. I’m starting to lose my patience here.

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  • Just curious – have you received any Bitcoins?

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @Denise:

    Yes, why?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Yeah, it’s difficult to take this seriously. Your monolithic rambling essay apparently amounts to: “Complex models are hard”. Is this any great insight? Is there any reason to suspect that mainstream models aren’t the best models based on current understanding? Sure, better models will arise in the future, this all seems like tilting at windmills to me.

    You are making the perfect the enemy of the good, and you’ve got nothing better than the good to offer up instead.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    A) You sure? See my previous posts on the topic (see the category).

    B) You're free to disbelieve, but in the future, please offer a more substantive criticism. I'm starting to lose my patience here.

    , @gerf
    Your response doesn't appear to be well formed. Am I sure of what? What is it you think I disbelieve?

    If your thesis was more (or less) profound than "Complex models are hard" it might serve you well to state your thesis clearly.

    , @gerf
    I appreciate the authoritarian sentiment. I've read them.

    IQ and Death: Further demonstration that you don't understand correlation. There isn't any semantic sense to a "true correlation". In fact, that post does a great job of illustrating how hard it is to model complex systems.

    Even George W. Bush Has Heart Disease: Generally incomprehensible data dump. Are introductory paragraphs and conclusion anathema or something? I think you're trying to say: "The jury is still out w.r.t exercise and heart disease." Sounds rather mundane, and the presentation is a mess.

    Trans Fat Hysteria and the Mystery of Heart Disease: A little more easy to follow, but looks to mirror the Bush one as: "The jury is still out w.r.t trans-fats and heart disease."

    How far off am I?

    , @gerf
    Based on the fact that I was off by "quite a bit", about the most constructive thing I can add to the discussion is the suggestion that you make an attempt to present your main point more clearly.

    As for being an advocate of evidence based medicine, there are certainly some other very good bloggers in that space, Steve Novella being primary.

    Good luck with your blog!

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @George
    Yeah, but its also the case that in the late 19th and early 20th centuries Americans ate quite a lot of carbs and that overall carb eating in America hasn't really gone up. So even if one wishes to see Americans as somehow uniquely unsuited to carbs whereas all sorts of unconnected other countries spread across the world, like France, Switzerland, and Japan, and whose populations flowed into the American gene pool, are somehow suited to carbs, Taubes theories make no sense. But the guy is beating his dead horse and doesn't care. He's a man on a mission.

    It's just absurd to quote Taubes about good thinking habits and about things like properly evaluating evidence and good science - its like quoting Hitler as an expert on anti-Semitism. In fact, some things Hitler said about Jews were quite correct (he acknowledged they were capable businessmen), but I think it's grotesque to quote him as an expert on Jews with the caveat that one doesn't, after all, agree with everything he says.

    Taubes is a good example of the modern charlatanism.

    Anyways.

    Again, you’re missing the point. I’m not saying Taubes’s hypothesis is correct, for you’re right, there’s plenty of issues with it. He is dead on when it comes to the problems with how diet and health are research, and that’s the points I cite.

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  • Yeah, but its also the case that in the late 19th and early 20th centuries Americans ate quite a lot of carbs and that overall carb eating in America hasn’t really gone up. So even if one wishes to see Americans as somehow uniquely unsuited to carbs whereas all sorts of unconnected other countries spread across the world, like France, Switzerland, and Japan, and whose populations flowed into the American gene pool, are somehow suited to carbs, Taubes theories make no sense. But the guy is beating his dead horse and doesn’t care. He’s a man on a mission.

    It’s just absurd to quote Taubes about good thinking habits and about things like properly evaluating evidence and good science – its like quoting Hitler as an expert on anti-Semitism. In fact, some things Hitler said about Jews were quite correct (he acknowledged they were capable businessmen), but I think it’s grotesque to quote him as an expert on Jews with the caveat that one doesn’t, after all, agree with everything he says.

    Taubes is a good example of the modern charlatanism.

    Anyways.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @George:

    Again, you're missing the point. I'm not saying Taubes's hypothesis is correct, for you're right, there's plenty of issues with it. He is dead on when it comes to the problems with how diet and health are research, and that's the points I cite.

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  • @George
    Hey JayMan, do you find it odd and a bit incongruous for you to discuss how when people with a theory about health find evidence that contradicts their theory they ignore said evidence, then talk approvingly about Gary Taubes who is one of the worst offenders in this respect? For the longest time Taubes has simply been ignoring the fact that countries that eats lots of carbs are very thin and much healthier than Americans. It's like he just doesn't want to see that and his theory is more important to him than any kind of annoying contradictory facts.

    It's very unsettling and makes me question the value of anything Taubes says. To me, the paradigm modern case of someone refusing to deal with the evidence because of an emotional connection to theory is precisely Taubes himself - he's the best off the cuff example I can think of this intellectual sin.

    Its interesting to me how someone can exalt a principle and then immediately fail to follow it. It's almost like a religious person paying lip service to morality but cheating and deceiving others. Its almost as if by invoking the exalted principle they then feel that this gives them some kind of immunity or armor against having to actually adhere to it. Well, I am a religious person how can I possibly be dishonest? Well I just said that people ignore evidence in favor of theory, obviously I am well aware of this tendency so clearly I can't possibly be guilty of it myself!

    Please see my post on Gary Taubes. I never said I agreed with everything he said.

    For the longest time Taubes has simply been ignoring the fact that countries that eats lots of carbs are very thin and much healthier than Americans.

    That, by the way, doesn’t necessarily mean anything. See here and here.

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  • Hey JayMan, do you find it odd and a bit incongruous for you to discuss how when people with a theory about health find evidence that contradicts their theory they ignore said evidence, then talk approvingly about Gary Taubes who is one of the worst offenders in this respect? For the longest time Taubes has simply been ignoring the fact that countries that eats lots of carbs are very thin and much healthier than Americans. It’s like he just doesn’t want to see that and his theory is more important to him than any kind of annoying contradictory facts.

    It’s very unsettling and makes me question the value of anything Taubes says. To me, the paradigm modern case of someone refusing to deal with the evidence because of an emotional connection to theory is precisely Taubes himself – he’s the best off the cuff example I can think of this intellectual sin.

    Its interesting to me how someone can exalt a principle and then immediately fail to follow it. It’s almost like a religious person paying lip service to morality but cheating and deceiving others. Its almost as if by invoking the exalted principle they then feel that this gives them some kind of immunity or armor against having to actually adhere to it. Well, I am a religious person how can I possibly be dishonest? Well I just said that people ignore evidence in favor of theory, obviously I am well aware of this tendency so clearly I can’t possibly be guilty of it myself!

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @George:

    Please see my post on Gary Taubes. I never said I agreed with everything he said.


    For the longest time Taubes has simply been ignoring the fact that countries that eats lots of carbs are very thin and much healthier than Americans.
     
    That, by the way, doesn't necessarily mean anything. See here and here.
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  • @(((Owen)))
    Since you charts show a spread of less than ten years between average lifespans and because smoking takes on average a dozen years off your life, your charts are useless unless you can factor out smoking rates.

    In fact, it looks like your map of life expectancy is just a tobacco marketing map. If we could identify life expectancy for nonsmokers -- maybe with insurance data -- then we could really tell something about race, diet, culture, and lifestyle. As it is you're just ignoring the elephant in the room.

    Owen – look again at the life-expectancy and smoking maps. The smoke zone is north (and uphill) of the low life-expectancy zone.

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  • I think that diet could relate to the personality type of people . If you are an energetic person ( as I am ) recommended should be a light diet , preferably vegetarian or low meat consumption. However , we tend to consume more foods that relate to our personality , especially in our society where the variety of food is immense . I think that the meat may have effects in enhancing the negative traits of a type of irritable personality (mine again) . For some stomachs , the meat can be more difficult to digest and this can result in greater emotional irritability.
    It’s a game that seeks to mitigate the negative personality traits through appropriate containment means the same as the diet.
    Diet is one of the cultural means to select genes , where the culture seems to be related not to the average type of personality, of a population , but the main types and combinations of personality traits .
    The diet can maximize your health but to a particular individual (and or family) level only.

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  • @Luke Lea
    Having recently reached the beginning of my 73rd year in this world and looking back one of the things I notice is how powerful a force is conformity. Most people want to fit in way more than they want to discover what is true or false. Strangest of all the smarter you are (at least up to a point) the stronger this force is. You see it on campus of course in the form of political correctness. You see it in the highest reaches of academic economics is the almost totemic worship of the phrase -- not the reality, mind, or even the "official" orthodox view which you can find in advanced textbooks on the subject -- of free trade. You identify here a third area (there are probably more?) of medical research, especially in things related to diet and health. It is a little like fashion. In fact it is fashion. And just like new fashions and changes in fashion it almost impossible to figure out where the fashions began. Sometimes in Paris, sometimes on the streets of Haight Ashbury, sometimes (who knows) in the secret sanctums of the gay fashionistas. I think LSD in the sixties had a lot to do with the freakish new fashions in opinion -- e.g., naive cosmopolitanism (remember John Lennon's Imagine -- don't tell me he wasn't stoned when he wrote that). Hell, the whole phenomenon of multiculturalism is probably a mind artifact of those psychadelic drugs which were so ubiquitous among the college-age elite. Don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about. I was there. I saw it with my own eyes. I even experienced a little of it myself. Those drugs were a cultural solvent that melted away the conditioned reflexes that established the old fashions (I think it was liberalism) and replaced them with these ridiculous forms of new craziness that are now wrecking our society.

    Another wrinkle is that the lower classes are much more immune to these kinds of influences. They are less conformist in many ways --e.g., in New England our cultural betters talk about the importance of racial tolerance, equality, etc.., but down here if you go to the graduation ceremonies for people getting their GED's (or whatever those high school equivalents are called) you see biracial couples all over the place.

    Anyway, the notion that human beings, the vast majority, are rational creatures is clearly a joke. Only a few eccentrics fill the bill, and not many of them.

    I'm talking about you JayMan! BTW I tried to make a contribution but PayPal wouldn't accept my debit card. Whatta ya supposed to do?

    Haha thank you!

    Very interesting and insightful comment!

    As for how to send me money….hmmm well, that sucks, but I gotta think of something else. Maybe when I don’t have a migraine. Hey maybe the net fairies will provide a way for your dollars to end up in my fund by morning… ;)

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  • Here is something JayMan should like ti see if he hasn’t seen it already. Most of his readers too I suppose. Hat tip Lubos Motl:

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  • @gerf
    It appears you don't understand the difference between correlation and causation. Not surprising.

    Was your comment directed at me?

    Apparently you are new here…

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  • It appears you don’t understand the difference between correlation and causation. Not surprising.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @gerf:

    Was your comment directed at me?

    Apparently you are new here...

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  • @Luke Lea
    Having recently reached the beginning of my 73rd year in this world and looking back one of the things I notice is how powerful a force is conformity. Most people want to fit in way more than they want to discover what is true or false. Strangest of all the smarter you are (at least up to a point) the stronger this force is. You see it on campus of course in the form of political correctness. You see it in the highest reaches of academic economics is the almost totemic worship of the phrase -- not the reality, mind, or even the "official" orthodox view which you can find in advanced textbooks on the subject -- of free trade. You identify here a third area (there are probably more?) of medical research, especially in things related to diet and health. It is a little like fashion. In fact it is fashion. And just like new fashions and changes in fashion it almost impossible to figure out where the fashions began. Sometimes in Paris, sometimes on the streets of Haight Ashbury, sometimes (who knows) in the secret sanctums of the gay fashionistas. I think LSD in the sixties had a lot to do with the freakish new fashions in opinion -- e.g., naive cosmopolitanism (remember John Lennon's Imagine -- don't tell me he wasn't stoned when he wrote that). Hell, the whole phenomenon of multiculturalism is probably a mind artifact of those psychadelic drugs which were so ubiquitous among the college-age elite. Don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about. I was there. I saw it with my own eyes. I even experienced a little of it myself. Those drugs were a cultural solvent that melted away the conditioned reflexes that established the old fashions (I think it was liberalism) and replaced them with these ridiculous forms of new craziness that are now wrecking our society.

    Another wrinkle is that the lower classes are much more immune to these kinds of influences. They are less conformist in many ways --e.g., in New England our cultural betters talk about the importance of racial tolerance, equality, etc.., but down here if you go to the graduation ceremonies for people getting their GED's (or whatever those high school equivalents are called) you see biracial couples all over the place.

    Anyway, the notion that human beings, the vast majority, are rational creatures is clearly a joke. Only a few eccentrics fill the bill, and not many of them.

    I'm talking about you JayMan! BTW I tried to make a contribution but PayPal wouldn't accept my debit card. Whatta ya supposed to do?

    Let me amend that last but one sentence above. It is mainly about our educated and cultural elites I am referring to as unrational creatures. Lower down the social spectrum a more reasonable realism rules — has to, or you couldn’t survive.

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  • Having recently reached the beginning of my 73rd year in this world and looking back one of the things I notice is how powerful a force is conformity. Most people want to fit in way more than they want to discover what is true or false. Strangest of all the smarter you are (at least up to a point) the stronger this force is. You see it on campus of course in the form of political correctness. You see it in the highest reaches of academic economics is the almost totemic worship of the phrase — not the reality, mind, or even the “official” orthodox view which you can find in advanced textbooks on the subject — of free trade. You identify here a third area (there are probably more?) of medical research, especially in things related to diet and health. It is a little like fashion. In fact it is fashion. And just like new fashions and changes in fashion it almost impossible to figure out where the fashions began. Sometimes in Paris, sometimes on the streets of Haight Ashbury, sometimes (who knows) in the secret sanctums of the gay fashionistas. I think LSD in the sixties had a lot to do with the freakish new fashions in opinion — e.g., naive cosmopolitanism (remember John Lennon’s Imagine — don’t tell me he wasn’t stoned when he wrote that). Hell, the whole phenomenon of multiculturalism is probably a mind artifact of those psychadelic drugs which were so ubiquitous among the college-age elite. Don’t tell me I don’t know what I am talking about. I was there. I saw it with my own eyes. I even experienced a little of it myself. Those drugs were a cultural solvent that melted away the conditioned reflexes that established the old fashions (I think it was liberalism) and replaced them with these ridiculous forms of new craziness that are now wrecking our society.

    Another wrinkle is that the lower classes are much more immune to these kinds of influences. They are less conformist in many ways –e.g., in New England our cultural betters talk about the importance of racial tolerance, equality, etc.., but down here if you go to the graduation ceremonies for people getting their GED’s (or whatever those high school equivalents are called) you see biracial couples all over the place.

    Anyway, the notion that human beings, the vast majority, are rational creatures is clearly a joke. Only a few eccentrics fill the bill, and not many of them.

    I’m talking about you JayMan! BTW I tried to make a contribution but PayPal wouldn’t accept my debit card. Whatta ya supposed to do?

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    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    Let me amend that last but one sentence above. It is mainly about our educated and cultural elites I am referring to as unrational creatures. Lower down the social spectrum a more reasonable realism rules -- has to, or you couldn't survive.
    , @JayMan
    @Luke Lea:

    Haha thank you!

    Very interesting and insightful comment!

    As for how to send me money....hmmm well, that sucks, but I gotta think of something else. Maybe when I don't have a migraine. Hey maybe the net fairies will provide a way for your dollars to end up in my fund by morning... ;)

    , @panjoomby
    @Luke Lea: i liked (& am still pondering) your comment about lower classes/lower SES being less conformist: "come to low SES-Land, where PC hasn't caught on!" - an excellent observation!

    the liberal elite PC-hive-mind is rampant - socially rewarding each other for their "enlightened" ways. like unto a religion, yea, verily, & thus it came to pass:

    "ALL people are exactly equal, ALL group means are exactly the same... We liberal elites believe in evolution (except the bit about different geographic groups with different environmental selection pressures selecting for different traits) ...nothing to see there, move along!" :)

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  • i remember when the default explanation for why women live longer than men was that men worked & their jobs were stressful — an idiotic environmental nicety quickly & easily accepted by the masses! the difference is clearly biological, yet in the 1960s sloppy environmental mesmerism was headed thru the roof – #1 with a bullet :)

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  • @panjoomby
    Excellent post - your 2nd to last paragraph tops it all! Huzzah!

    I'm donating not only b/c of your blog (& your great 2nd to last paragraph) but for your enthusiastically salient points & comments at other blogs - it's like you're more than one person - alas, would that there was more than 1 JayMan:)

    just as most people expect lifestyle to have more of an effect than it does (sadly, environment rarely trumps nature - except when we get bonked on the head), most people expect education to have more of an effect than it does - as if it can overcome IQ/biological pre-wiring, etc. which is sad for the poor teachers whom we expect to turn lead into gold - this environmental zeitgeist is bound to be rough on them.

    I completely agree with you, it’s amazing what someone’s profession can do to their outlook. I’ve watched bright eyed young men turn into cynical curmudgeons after only months of experience in police work. It can be hard to remain objective when you are constantly faced with the worst of humanity.

    ~S

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  • http://genome.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_WTX031151.html

    Human genetics: Redhead receptor

    “People have red hair because they possess a variant melanocortin-1 receptor gene. This also affects their sensitivity to pain and pain relief…”

    “The melanocortin-1 receptor affects pigmentation across the animal world, from human hair colour to bird plumage. Interestingly, though, it also has an influence on other aspects of physiology – including pain responses.
    Jeffrey Mogil and colleagues at McGill University in Montreal, Canada, recently discovered that some variants of the MC1R gene make people and mice more sensitive to pain and to pain relief mediated through the kappa-opioid receptor in the brain.
    Clinically, though, pain relief mediated through the mu-opioid receptor is more important. Now, the McGill team has found that mice lacking a functional MC1R gene, as well as human redheads, are also less sensitive to painful stimuli and more responsive to a morphine-like compound that acts through the mu-opioid receptor.
    The redhead variants of MC1R have been thought to be non-functional versions of the receptor. However, Kimberley Beaumont and colleagues in Brisbane have found that they may still be active, but coding changes in the MC1R gene prevent the receptor being transported to the surface of the cell.”

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  • Red haired people of European descent apparently have different sensitivity to pain compared with people with different hair colours and also require higher doses of anaesthetic. I wonder if there have been any studies done with regard to sensivity to or tolerance of alcohol, nicotine, and narcotics; or differences in the μ-opioid receptor gene or similar factors in red haired caucasians relative to other groups. Red hair reaches peak world frequency in the Scottish. They also have very high rates of smoking, alcohol abuse, heroin and cocaine use, etc. when compared with many other European populations. It wouldn’t surprise me if there is a strong genetic component involved in this behavioural trait which has replicated itself in the parts of America which were originally settled by the Scots and Scots-Irish.

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  • @panjoomby
    Excellent post - your 2nd to last paragraph tops it all! Huzzah!

    I'm donating not only b/c of your blog (& your great 2nd to last paragraph) but for your enthusiastically salient points & comments at other blogs - it's like you're more than one person - alas, would that there was more than 1 JayMan:)

    just as most people expect lifestyle to have more of an effect than it does (sadly, environment rarely trumps nature - except when we get bonked on the head), most people expect education to have more of an effect than it does - as if it can overcome IQ/biological pre-wiring, etc. which is sad for the poor teachers whom we expect to turn lead into gold - this environmental zeitgeist is bound to be rough on them.

    Teachers have both lead and gold, and confirmation bias, to work with so they are probably doing ok. But physicians (and probably social workers) who have only lead to work with will be disappointed again and again. Which may explain their suicide rates.

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  • @JayMan
    @Sisyphean:

    Yes, it almost goes without saying, as per The 10,000 Year Explosion, that historically foraging groups are the least adapted to the modern Western diet.

    The key question, and, really, what everyone wants to know: how much of the problems of modern industrial people can be blamed on diet/lifestyle? It's understood that people with a less deep history of civilization would be in big trouble today. That question is a lot harder to answer, and, in many ways, a big part of my series of posts on this topic is to try to answer it.

    I agree and I think the problem with that question is that given the huge population growth since the advent of agriculture and the fact that as medical technology has improved more and more children who would have died (like me, I was a cesarean section baby, had childhood pneumonia that would have killed me and had a life time of allergies that led to many infections) going on to reproduce, we’ve got a lot of genetic variation going around. The answer is likely to vary a lot.

    I do best when I restrict wheat and sugar, but dairy is fine for me and alcohol isn’t terribly addictive for me. If I were like a lot of people on the internet right now I’d be out telling everyone the evils of sugar and wheat and how dairy and alcohol are really fine, only that’s not true for the lactose intolerant and it’s not true for the french who seem to do fine with their bread and sweets or the Irish and scots irish who still struggle with alcohol (but also make some darn good varieties of it).

    I say good luck to you, but until someone is willing to grab several thousand people and perform double blind longitudinal studies with completely controlled diets, we’ll only have the choice between rumors, self experimentation and bombastic bullshit to go by. I chose the self experimentation route.

    ~S

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  • You may be interested in seeing some graphs I prepared recently on this topic.

    http://s207.photobucket.com/user/jhowns/media/calif_male_le_by_race_and_income.png.html

    http://s207.photobucket.com/user/jhowns/media/calif_female_le_by_race_and_income.png.html

    Derived from this research: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2849870/

    What I find interesting is:
    1) The SES gaps for both blacks and whites are very large, about 10 years (much larger than the white vs black gaps)
    2) The white-black gaps are pretty consistent with respect to SES (no massive leap out of the bottom quintile as some might expect)
    3) The poorest asians and hispanics far outlive most whites and blacks (asians across the entire spectrum)
    4) The asian and hispanic LE does not appear to change much with respect to SES

    Curiously (and perhaps unsurprisingly) the state wide averages show a similar pattern with respect to state wide median income (a very crude proxy for average group SES).

    http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb66/jhowns/LifeExpByStateAndRace.png~original

    Like you, I tend to lean more towards genetic explanations here, but I suppose what I find most striking is that even if it was mainly lifestyle the data would suggest that on some fairly basic things that ought to be under the control of the theoretical control of the individual (as opposed to taking the view that the environment is highly deterministic). It seems to me if these researchers really believed it was the actual behaviors of low income hispanics (or better yet asians) and that genetics plays little to no role then they’d should be able to replicate this and see some pretty pronounced effects….[I won't hold my breath]

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @franklindmadoff:

    Thanks a lot for those! Sorry I didn't get to comment on them before, but they are a fine addition to the information here. I may have to edit the post to incorporate them.

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  • @panjoomby
    Excellent post - your 2nd to last paragraph tops it all! Huzzah!

    I'm donating not only b/c of your blog (& your great 2nd to last paragraph) but for your enthusiastically salient points & comments at other blogs - it's like you're more than one person - alas, would that there was more than 1 JayMan:)

    just as most people expect lifestyle to have more of an effect than it does (sadly, environment rarely trumps nature - except when we get bonked on the head), most people expect education to have more of an effect than it does - as if it can overcome IQ/biological pre-wiring, etc. which is sad for the poor teachers whom we expect to turn lead into gold - this environmental zeitgeist is bound to be rough on them.

    Thank you!

    And yup, pretty much… ;)

    Well I have a new JayMan in development.

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  • Excellent post – your 2nd to last paragraph tops it all! Huzzah!

    I’m donating not only b/c of your blog (& your great 2nd to last paragraph) but for your enthusiastically salient points & comments at other blogs – it’s like you’re more than one person – alas, would that there was more than 1 JayMan:)

    just as most people expect lifestyle to have more of an effect than it does (sadly, environment rarely trumps nature – except when we get bonked on the head), most people expect education to have more of an effect than it does – as if it can overcome IQ/biological pre-wiring, etc. which is sad for the poor teachers whom we expect to turn lead into gold – this environmental zeitgeist is bound to be rough on them.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @panjoomby:

    Thank you!

    And yup, pretty much... ;)

    Well I have a new JayMan in development.

    , @Staffan
    Teachers have both lead and gold, and confirmation bias, to work with so they are probably doing ok. But physicians (and probably social workers) who have only lead to work with will be disappointed again and again. Which may explain their suicide rates.
    , @Sisyphean
    @Staffan I completely agree with you, it's amazing what someone's profession can do to their outlook. I've watched bright eyed young men turn into cynical curmudgeons after only months of experience in police work. It can be hard to remain objective when you are constantly faced with the worst of humanity.

    ~S

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  • @(((Owen)))
    Since you charts show a spread of less than ten years between average lifespans and because smoking takes on average a dozen years off your life, your charts are useless unless you can factor out smoking rates.

    In fact, it looks like your map of life expectancy is just a tobacco marketing map. If we could identify life expectancy for nonsmokers -- maybe with insurance data -- then we could really tell something about race, diet, culture, and lifestyle. As it is you're just ignoring the elephant in the room.

    @Owen:

    Sure, smoking rates are likely involved in some of this variation. I suspect it’s not the sole or even primary factor, however. The fine analysis you have in mind might not really be possible, because non-smokers are systematically different from smokers, which may confuse your findings. I wanted to do a fairly simplistic overview here. Trying to control for this or that often just muddles your results.

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  • @Staffan
    One problem is how to go forward. If you take the fact that some form of paternalism may be inevitable and direct this concern to certain ethnic groups it becomes a liberal's worst nightmare. Especially if the genetics behind it is linked to things like impulsivity and low self-discipline. I doubt it matters much that there are some White people on both sides of the fence.

    Since, at least for Europeans and their offshoots, I am less convinced that modern diet is a huge problem, I am not worried so much about what to do to “fix” it. Some things can’t be fixed. Even assuming that European health problems can be traced to lifestyle, that it itself will not be amenable to change. I don’t see much changing in the near to medium term.

    I think the huge take away, and the primary thesis in this post, is that genetics has been an underappreciated factor behind health and lifespan variation. Newer, better research simply needs to be genetically informed (even though even that is no guarantee).

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  • @Sisyphean
    The best example of diet effects for me has always been the North American Natives. Tall, strong and lean people in every description at contact, only to be killed in droves and forced onto reservations where they've been fed low grade crap, chiefly refined wheat flour, refined white sugar, and processed lard, ever since. Now when you ask them about their traditional foods, you're far more likely to hear about fry bread (wheat flour fried in lard caked in sugar) than succotash or pemmican. These people have the highest rates of obesity and diabetes II in the USA, bar none.

    Interestingly, those that have gone back to their traditional foods have seen reversal of the diabetes and obesity but it's nigh impossible to take away addictive things like sugar (and white flour is basically also just sugar) and many can't stop themselves from going back to the cheap sugar trough. Like alcohol the sugar genie isn't going back into the bottle and those who haven't had centuries of adaptation to handle it will suffer.

    That said, I'm not saying diet is the only thing that matters, far from it, I'm just providing an extreme counterpoint. Western Europeans, especially the core, can tolerate sugar, alcohol, and flour in greater amounts than other populations but that doesn't mean those things are good in unlimited quantities. Of course, when you do have unlimited quantities it's the impulsive who tend to overindulge, while the circumspect do not.

    ~S

    Yes, it almost goes without saying, as per The 10,000 Year Explosion, that historically foraging groups are the least adapted to the modern Western diet.

    The key question, and, really, what everyone wants to know: how much of the problems of modern industrial people can be blamed on diet/lifestyle? It’s understood that people with a less deep history of civilization would be in big trouble today. That question is a lot harder to answer, and, in many ways, a big part of my series of posts on this topic is to try to answer it.

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    • Replies: @Sisyphean
    I agree and I think the problem with that question is that given the huge population growth since the advent of agriculture and the fact that as medical technology has improved more and more children who would have died (like me, I was a cesarean section baby, had childhood pneumonia that would have killed me and had a life time of allergies that led to many infections) going on to reproduce, we've got a lot of genetic variation going around. The answer is likely to vary a lot.

    I do best when I restrict wheat and sugar, but dairy is fine for me and alcohol isn't terribly addictive for me. If I were like a lot of people on the internet right now I'd be out telling everyone the evils of sugar and wheat and how dairy and alcohol are really fine, only that's not true for the lactose intolerant and it's not true for the french who seem to do fine with their bread and sweets or the Irish and scots irish who still struggle with alcohol (but also make some darn good varieties of it).

    I say good luck to you, but until someone is willing to grab several thousand people and perform double blind longitudinal studies with completely controlled diets, we'll only have the choice between rumors, self experimentation and bombastic bullshit to go by. I chose the self experimentation route.

    ~S

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  • @EvolutionistX
    I strongly suspect that there is a rather complicated interaction between diet and genetics. Someone with the APOE-4 gene, for example, may respond differently to certain foods than someone without it. Given identical diets, both people might do great, terribly, or have completely different outcomes, depending on the particular foods involved. Some of us are probably better adapted to the typical American diet than others (my husband, for example, seems better adapted to it than I am, though we're both better adapted than someone who lacks lactase persistence.)

    Huge confounder that most studies seem to completely miss.

    @Avery:

    Yes, strictly speaking diet likely interacts with genetics. As per The 10,000 Year Explosion, each group is differently adapted based on their historic diets. This follows some groups are better suited to the “modern Western diet” than others.

    The very high heritability of BMI (.75-0.8) and, to a lesser extent, the high heritability of cardiovascular disease demonstrates that individuals are differently adapted to diet. This suggests that some people might be better on some diets over others, and so on.

    The thing to keep in mind here, and what I was trying to convey in this post, is that there isn’t some optimal wonder diet for each person that will ward off ill health and/or delay death. Some people are intrinsically healthier than others. This likely is the result of both genetic load and the effect of various metabolic strategies that have evolved. Too great a stress on health through lifestyle is largely a waste of time, based on what I’ve seen.

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