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    There is considerable chatter about who will win in some of the hotly contested congressional races around the country, but one thing is certain: whoever triumphs will soon be receiving a nice all expenses paid luxury trip to Israel to learn all about Benjamin Netanyahu’s views regarding what more Washington can do to support him...
  • How many of YOUR America’s $4+BILLION in WELFARE given to Israel every year comes back to America in the form of BRIBES to “american” politicians? Traitors voting to give Israel MORE, so they can get bigger BRIBES.

    ALL the WELFARE we have been giving israel is ILLEGAL http://presstv.com/Detail/2016/08/13/479869/US-aid-Israel-illegal-

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  • @falcemartello
    Its called the fifth column . The anglo-zionist lobby has been for as long as anyone can remember.
    Ur argument about Iran funding and supporting terrorism is laughable at best. Iran funds and trains against takfiri/wahabism ideology and zionist ideology. It as part of the resistance to anglo-zionist dreams of the Yinon project of a greater Israel. it funds and supports Hezbullah. Recognised legitimate political and military establishment with in the sovereign nation of Lebanon. In 2006 along side Christian phalange and Lebanese army they resisted and pushed back the Israeli criminal onslaught of southern Lebanon.
    Facts are facts and fabricated lies like that \Tehran sponsors terrorism is another. IE: Look at the criminality of the west Israel and the house of Saud against the Yeminites look at Syria are all facts of western and Israeli/GCC criminality against sovereign states/.
    Fabrications of WMD Russian invasion/aggression. Chinese aggression. When will we in the west ever learn from history and all the facts that surround the western aggression towards the world in the name of predatory capitalism and corporatism .
    Facts Iran has never invaded any country
    Fact Russia has never invaded any country. Georgian incidence was instigated by Shakasvilli and the UN report has stated as much hence the Russians moving in decreased the body count of innocent ethnic Russians. Crimea The Russians had a 40 year lease in Crimea to use their military port and bases. hence when Nuland fuk the EU destabilised Ukraine and instigated a coup d'etat and the coup plotters and winners stated quite publicly to burn all russian to hell and then parliament went ahead and made it into law not to recognise the Russian language any longer . What do u think the people of Donbas were to do sit bak at let the fascist burn them alive like they did in Odessa. The Crimeans voted to become part of Russia 96 percent turnout and over 90 percent voted for being made part of Russia.
    China has never invaded any country hence like I have been arguing is the criminal acts of Israel, Saudi Arabia and The US and their results are all their to see .
    So lets examine the facts.
    1: Afghanistan been occupied by the west since 2001 . Heroin production during this period at all time low ( Check Un data for these actual facts) Heroin production has been growing exponentially ever since the western occupation.
    2; Iraq occupation and prior to that bubba Clintons not so advertised war against Iraq ( Madelaine Albright was asked was it worth the death of a million people due to the sanctions imposed and the infrequent bombing by the US during his tenure. She replied yes.Their was noTakfiri s/wahabist in Iraq . We came we bombed/ depleated uranium/Faluja,increase in cancer and look how stable Iraq is today.
    3; Libya: Under Qadaffi had the highest standard of living in all of Africa (Check UN stats). Look at it today. Clinton e-mail scandal and 2012 DIA report state that takfirism and terrorism will grow post these events and Clinton had enabled these events in order to destabilize Syria
    4: Syria all part of the grand scheme and Docius in Fondem last but not least Wesley Clarke blew the whole lid of their deceptive scheme for global hegemony

    You forgot Tunisia and Egypt to your list. Arab Spring was a CIA creation. The US had absolutely no business either with those countries. Then, why the heck we attack them? Why we converted in ruins a wonderful and modern country as Syria, the most pro-western country in the Middle East? The answer is only one: Israel, that didn’t forgive Syrian leader Al Assad was friend of Russia and Iran….. For decades Israel has used the US as proxy to make wars and military interventions. We put the casualties while Israel doesn’t risk one single soldier. I still keep a pic of Netanyahu visiting a hospital in Tel Aviv where there were attended several ISIS terrorists wounded in action.

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  • @Clyde
    Right on bro. No one understands blacks except blacks and no one knows Islam and understands Muslims except for Muslims. You post so much Muslim clarifications/propaganda/whatever at Unz, you really should try posting at Jihad Watch and see the counter arguments you will get. And maybe from Spencer himself.
    You post something to me that I will read and maybe a few others, while at Jihad Watch there would be much wider distribution of you arguments. Maybe you will bring some of them over to your side.

    What I get from you is that the only infidel authors who meet your high standards are Karen Armstrong and ones like her who are abysmal cave-ins and arse-kissers for Islam.

    “Right on bro.”

    Has my post offended your sentiments toward Ashton Carter?

    Here is a main point of the post: “Hagel was pushed out over his inability to pierce the inner circle in the White House national security team [ziocon cabal], and because his approach to drawing down troops was seen as no longer appropriate given increased U.S. involvement in conflict zones overseas…. “Virtually every administration has made close military ties with Israel a military priority,” Cordesman said in an interview. “It is simply a fact of American political life.”

    The same shameful process of pushing out principled professionals was used by Douglas Feith against Colonel Lang: http://www.mepc.org/journal/middle-east-policy-archives/drinking-kool-aid?print
    Who is Colonel Lang? – a “retired senior officer of U.S. Military Intelligence and U.S. Army Special Forces (The Green Berets). He served in the Department of Defense both as a serving officer and then as a member of the Defense Senior Executive Service for many years. He is a highly decorated veteran of several of America’s overseas conflicts including the war in Vietnam. He was trained and educated as a specialist in the Middle East by the U.S. Army and served in that region for many years….” http://turcopolier.typepad.com/about.html
    Who is Douglas Feith? – an Israel-firster: http://davidswanson.org/node/756 He is also know as “the fucking stupidest guy on the face of the earth:” http://pushingrope.blogspot.com/2007/04/more-proof-douglas-feith-is-idiot.html
    The ziocon cabal has been pushing out the military experts in the Middle East, while bringing in the unprincipled careerists of armchair-pursuasion (see Ash Carter, Doug Feith, and the despicable Wolfowitz).
    What is not clear about Carter’s mission as Sec of Def? – He is a wet dream of war profiteers and Israel-firsters.
    Or maybe you did not like the statement about US/Israel collaboration with ISIS? – Then refute it with facts.
    “Israeli Military Admits to Supporting Syrian Jihadis:” http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/07/israeli-military-admits-to-supporting-syrian-jihadis.html
    “U.S. General: West Created ISIS:” https://americanfreepress.net/general-blows-whistle-on-islamic-state/
    “Israeli Intel Chief: We Don’t Want ISIS Defeated in Syria:” http://news.antiwar.com/2016/06/21/israeli-intel-chief-we-dont-want-isis-defeated-in-syria/

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  • @SolontoCroesus
    Samantha Power schools Lavrov, Putin, Assad in the delicate art of diplomacy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSvyIf2CNCs

    don't it make you proud to be Merkun

    Tweet by
    ‏@DanielleRyanJ

    Warning, hypocrisy overload: Samantha Power accuses Russia of “moralizing and grandstanding” at the UN.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Avery
    Bad youtube link

    This is the vid of hideous liar blaming the deliberate killing "by mistake" of ~ 80 SAA troops on everybody and his brother - but the Washington criminals who ordered the "mistake".

    [[Full speech] Samantha Power blames everything on Russia / defends US actions in Syria]
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8sHzxILZMk

    And one for the road: elegantly dressed US rep Samantha Power.
    (This is how low this country has sunk).
    http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/unbelievably-pathetic-groveling-kievs-klimkin-samantha-power-un/ri10572
    (scroll down to pic)

    Power is a loathsomely stupid bitch.

    After Stalingrad, some clever soul in Berlin wrote some grafitti, “Enjoy the war, the peace will be terrible”. I’d like to say Americans would do well to take note, but let’s be honest, they are far too fucking stupid to be cognizant of the fact that actions have consequences.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Avery
    Bad youtube link

    This is the vid of hideous liar blaming the deliberate killing "by mistake" of ~ 80 SAA troops on everybody and his brother - but the Washington criminals who ordered the "mistake".

    [[Full speech] Samantha Power blames everything on Russia / defends US actions in Syria]
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8sHzxILZMk

    And one for the road: elegantly dressed US rep Samantha Power.
    (This is how low this country has sunk).
    http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/unbelievably-pathetic-groveling-kievs-klimkin-samantha-power-un/ri10572
    (scroll down to pic)

    Yo Avery,

    Yeah this one is going to be very difficult to cover up – I don’t think anybody except the absolutely most propagandized believe our government’s version of the story.

    Wow – the gall! I can’t believe they would could do that with the Russians right there!!!

    Peace.

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  • @SolontoCroesus
    Samantha Power schools Lavrov, Putin, Assad in the delicate art of diplomacy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSvyIf2CNCs

    don't it make you proud to be Merkun

    Bad youtube link

    This is the vid of hideous liar blaming the deliberate killing “by mistake” of ~ 80 SAA troops on everybody and his brother – but the Washington criminals who ordered the “mistake”.

    [[Full speech] Samantha Power blames everything on Russia / defends US actions in Syria]

    And one for the road: elegantly dressed US rep Samantha Power.
    (This is how low this country has sunk).

    http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/unbelievably-pathetic-groveling-kievs-klimkin-samantha-power-un/ri10572

    (scroll down to pic)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Yo Avery,

    Yeah this one is going to be very difficult to cover up - I don't think anybody except the absolutely most propagandized believe our government's version of the story.

    Wow - the gall! I can't believe they would could do that with the Russians right there!!!

    Peace.
    , @Beefcake the Mighty
    Power is a loathsomely stupid bitch.

    After Stalingrad, some clever soul in Berlin wrote some grafitti, "Enjoy the war, the peace will be terrible". I'd like to say Americans would do well to take note, but let's be honest, they are far too fucking stupid to be cognizant of the fact that actions have consequences.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Samantha Power schools Lavrov, Putin, Assad in the delicate art of diplomacy

    don’t it make you proud to be Merkun

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    Bad youtube link

    This is the vid of hideous liar blaming the deliberate killing "by mistake" of ~ 80 SAA troops on everybody and his brother - but the Washington criminals who ordered the "mistake".

    [[Full speech] Samantha Power blames everything on Russia / defends US actions in Syria]
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8sHzxILZMk

    And one for the road: elegantly dressed US rep Samantha Power.
    (This is how low this country has sunk).
    http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/unbelievably-pathetic-groveling-kievs-klimkin-samantha-power-un/ri10572
    (scroll down to pic)

    , @RobinG
    Tweet by
    ‏@DanielleRyanJ


    Warning, hypocrisy overload: Samantha Power accuses Russia of "moralizing and grandstanding" at the UN.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @iffen
    Yes, he does mention this. Evidently it is quite obvious to any knowledgeable scholar of the subject that many of the Muslim elite quickly realized, “Hey, wait a minute, somebody has to pay the taxes.” He also says that with regard to the Zoroastrians and Buddhists, a ruling was obtained that said that although they weren’t actually mentioned in The Book, they were equivalent and should be granted dhimmi status.

    I love opening windows into my ignorance.

    I never knew of the Ghassanids and the Lakhmids. I knew about the many Christian and other religious sects and groups in the Levant, the different language groups, but this book really brought it home for me. Talk about your multiculturalism!

    The frontiers of the Byzantine, Western Roman Empire and the Sassanid all followed the same pattern; foederati all over the place. The Arabs picked up this practice as they got to the far reaches of their conquests. I made note of the accommodations reached with Turkic tribes at the edges of the defeated Sassanid Empire. Like the Germanic tribes, I think these Turkic tribes show up later on in another role.

    I was not trying to rescue kum ba yah. I am as pessimist and skeptical as anyone. Once the meaning of a word changes it is usually not going to be reclaimed. We could ask Pollyanna about that.

    Dear iffen,

    Good stuff!

    they were equivalent and should be granted dhimmi status

    That was huge – thank God! Had the Companions made a different interpretation (and their unanimous precedents are our example in praxis), it would have been very, very grim…

    The Arabs picked up this practice

    Indeed, the genius in the earliest generation was that they realized their own limitations and preserved the prevailing order:
    “Positions in government administration and the economy were open to dhimmis. In fact, from the Arab conquest to the beginning of the eighth century, the language of the administration remained Persian in Iraq and Greek in Egypt and Syria. Only dhimmis, especially Christians, had the linguistic and administrative skills to keep the government functioning. Even after Arabization started under Caliph Abd al-Malik in the late seventh century, dhimmis continued to fill important positions in government.”

    http://www.syriacstudies.com/2013/07/09/christians-and-jews-under-islam-najib-saliba-phd/

    Unlike, the fools of today who think their ideology will magically keep electric plants running or sewage ducts flowing even after you lop off the heads of the secular-minded experts in charge.

    I think these Turkic tribes show up later

    Boy do they ever! I won’t spoil anything – the book sounds great! I am going to recommend it for others.

    I am as pessimist and skeptical as anyone.

    My advice; be skeptical, but be an optimist – the world needs more. And a hopeful (not naive) society has far better chances at longevity. This is at least the pattern I’ve seen throughout history.

    Peace.

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  • @Talha
    This is some legitimate criticism and I hold much of the same opinion about the sanguinary madness committed by Muslims on a daily basis. There is no doubt a crisis of authority going on in the Muslim world, this one was kicked of by the advent of Salafi/Wahhabi thoughts being disseminated started around the mid-19th century and exacerbated by . A bit like the throes of the Reformation in Europe but not on that scale of violence...yet.

    Scholars and religious theory are...
     
    ...what constitutes 'Islam'...

    but actions...
     
    ...are what are committed by Muslims - there are many Muslims around the world that drink alcohol - some within my extended family - to pin that failure on Islamic doctrine is insipid.

    actions of Islam
     
    When you see 'Islam' acting, please take a picture for me and send it. Likewise when you see 'Jeffersonian Democracy' walking around - I'd like to know what clothes it wears and what it likes for breakfast.

    Some jihads are legit and some are not - depends on the circumstances. For instance, the call to arms against US invasion of Iraq, by both Sunnis and Shiahs had legitimacy and backing from top scholars around the world. The current calls by Daesh - not so much.

    Peace.

    Oops – submitted too early…was going to say…

    “…exacerbated by…” the massive petro-dollar funding to disseminate these marginal ideologies. When the Wahhabi extremists appeared, Imam Ibn Abidin (ra) who I mentioned, called them out as the contemporary Khawarij and the Ottomans committed two field armies to their destruction. And then the British came and gave them top-billing – how’s that working out for them in Britain?

    http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/16/man-found-guilty-of-murdering-rochdale-imam-jalal-uddin-6132500/

    A 71 year-old imam beaten to death with a hammer in a public playground – I’m sure the permissibility of such actions are hidden in books like Fatawa Alamghiri or were pronounced by imminent scholars like Imam Daqiq al-Eid (ra) or Imam Izz Ibn Abdus-Salaam (ra) – I’m obviously just not looking hard enough. Or maybe, just maybe Daesh doesn’t know what they are talking about…

    But it’s all worth it because jihads are very good business:
    “New research by the Campaign Against Arms Trade (CAAT) states that in the nearly six years since Mr Cameron’s election in May 2010, the UK has sold weapons to 24 of the 27 states included on its own list of “countries of humanitarian concern”.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-has-sold-56bn-of-military-hardware-to-saudi-arabia-under-david-cameron-research-reveals-a6797861.html

    Peace.

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  • @Avery
    Yo, Talha:

    Thanks for the post.
    Greatly appreciated.

    Yo Avery,

    No problem. There is little love lost between me and secular ethno-nationalist Turks that, in their pursuit of a pure-Turkish utopia, ran roughshod over the souls of thousands upon thousands of innocent people – and dragged the name of my religion through the mud.

    Peace.

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  • @Clyde

    If they want to claim what “Muslims” or “Islam” states to practice or believe, they have to bring evidence of their claims by the overwhelming consensus of our scholars, otherwise it’s their interpretation of our source texts which is fine for them, but means zero for us.
     
    You can claim zero meaning all you want but my opinion of the Muslim world and its many Jihads (about 20 ongoing) is based on the actions of Muslims. Scholars and religious theory are important but actions count more for me. Talk is cheap. The acts and actions of Islam and Muslims are more revealing.
    Ongoing Jihads such as in Europe, Philippines, Malaysia, Kashmir, Middle East, about five Jihads just there alone!

    This is some legitimate criticism and I hold much of the same opinion about the sanguinary madness committed by Muslims on a daily basis. There is no doubt a crisis of authority going on in the Muslim world, this one was kicked of by the advent of Salafi/Wahhabi thoughts being disseminated started around the mid-19th century and exacerbated by . A bit like the throes of the Reformation in Europe but not on that scale of violence…yet.

    Scholars and religious theory are…

    …what constitutes ‘Islam’…

    but actions…

    …are what are committed by Muslims – there are many Muslims around the world that drink alcohol – some within my extended family – to pin that failure on Islamic doctrine is insipid.

    actions of Islam

    When you see ‘Islam’ acting, please take a picture for me and send it. Likewise when you see ‘Jeffersonian Democracy’ walking around – I’d like to know what clothes it wears and what it likes for breakfast.

    Some jihads are legit and some are not – depends on the circumstances. For instance, the call to arms against US invasion of Iraq, by both Sunnis and Shiahs had legitimacy and backing from top scholars around the world. The current calls by Daesh – not so much.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Oops - submitted too early...was going to say...

    "...exacerbated by..." the massive petro-dollar funding to disseminate these marginal ideologies. When the Wahhabi extremists appeared, Imam Ibn Abidin (ra) who I mentioned, called them out as the contemporary Khawarij and the Ottomans committed two field armies to their destruction. And then the British came and gave them top-billing - how's that working out for them in Britain?

    http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/16/man-found-guilty-of-murdering-rochdale-imam-jalal-uddin-6132500/

    A 71 year-old imam beaten to death with a hammer in a public playground - I'm sure the permissibility of such actions are hidden in books like Fatawa Alamghiri or were pronounced by imminent scholars like Imam Daqiq al-Eid (ra) or Imam Izz Ibn Abdus-Salaam (ra) - I'm obviously just not looking hard enough. Or maybe, just maybe Daesh doesn't know what they are talking about...

    But it's all worth it because jihads are very good business:
    "New research by the Campaign Against Arms Trade (CAAT) states that in the nearly six years since Mr Cameron’s election in May 2010, the UK has sold weapons to 24 of the 27 states included on its own list of “countries of humanitarian concern”."
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-has-sold-56bn-of-military-hardware-to-saudi-arabia-under-david-cameron-research-reveals-a6797861.html

    Peace.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha

    you really should try posting at Jihad Watch and see the counter arguments you will get
     
    Have you seen the comments section at that site? It makes the commentators on Sailer's threads look like 'high society'. I have as much desire to post on that site as I do to walk into an insane asylum and turn off the lights. They are as objective as BLM - why don't you walk into one of their meetings and see if you can get an intellectual conversation going?

    Maybe you will bring some of them over to your side.
     
    I'm not interested in convincing them of anything. They have their own intellects to figure out whether they are being duped. If they like the tune, they can keep dancing - I have no desire to crash their party. My goal is to undercut the foundations of their claims to legitimacy. If they want to claim what "Muslims" or "Islam" states to practice or believe, they have to bring evidence of their claims by the overwhelming consensus of our scholars, otherwise it's their interpretation of our source texts which is fine for them, but means zero for us. No Muslim cares what a non-Muslim claims that our Qur'an states, no non-Muslim exegesis is valid, their transmission of hadith is invalid, their 'fatwas' are invalid. We do not seek your validation. Anybody who is reading with an academic and objective bent can read what I say and evaluate my claims (from the traditional Orthodox Sunni perspective - the super-majority voice of Muslims throughout all of history) versus theirs - those people are my audience; you're just providing me a platform.

    If I claim all Orthodox Jews are commanded to rob Christian children and eat them, I better damn well present something authentic from a good number of their recognized Rabbis to back up my claim, especially if I want to claim that as an absolute practice. And they feel no shame claiming we are permitted to rape young boys through Qur'anic verses - you expect me to treat that with respect??!!

    Men like Imam Sarakhsi (ra) did not spend their lives studying and writing 30 volume works (partially from pure memory from inside a prison cell):
    http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=2306

    And our scholars didn't spend sleepless nights to preserve, teach and disseminate such works just so some goobers could set up shop on some corner of the internet to make claims as to what we believe and do (and not even be bothered to learn Arabic - Arabic!).


    the only infidel authors who meet your high standards are Karen Armstrong and ones like her
     
    Missed my point...while we appreciate Mrs. Armstrong's works (or people like Dr. Esposito), her claims as to what we believe and practice are also only valid insofar as she backs up her claims through the legitimate voices of our historic and living tradition. They are also unqualified to interpret source texts except for themselves.

    Peace.

    If they want to claim what “Muslims” or “Islam” states to practice or believe, they have to bring evidence of their claims by the overwhelming consensus of our scholars, otherwise it’s their interpretation of our source texts which is fine for them, but means zero for us.

    You can claim zero meaning all you want but my opinion of the Muslim world and its many Jihads (about 20 ongoing) is based on the actions of Muslims. Scholars and religious theory are important but actions count more for me. Talk is cheap. The acts and actions of Islam and Muslims are more revealing.
    Ongoing Jihads such as in Europe, Philippines, Malaysia, Kashmir, Middle East, about five Jihads just there alone!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    This is some legitimate criticism and I hold much of the same opinion about the sanguinary madness committed by Muslims on a daily basis. There is no doubt a crisis of authority going on in the Muslim world, this one was kicked of by the advent of Salafi/Wahhabi thoughts being disseminated started around the mid-19th century and exacerbated by . A bit like the throes of the Reformation in Europe but not on that scale of violence...yet.

    Scholars and religious theory are...
     
    ...what constitutes 'Islam'...

    but actions...
     
    ...are what are committed by Muslims - there are many Muslims around the world that drink alcohol - some within my extended family - to pin that failure on Islamic doctrine is insipid.

    actions of Islam
     
    When you see 'Islam' acting, please take a picture for me and send it. Likewise when you see 'Jeffersonian Democracy' walking around - I'd like to know what clothes it wears and what it likes for breakfast.

    Some jihads are legit and some are not - depends on the circumstances. For instance, the call to arms against US invasion of Iraq, by both Sunnis and Shiahs had legitimacy and backing from top scholars around the world. The current calls by Daesh - not so much.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    By the way, how's it going in the book? Did they discuss the penchant for the early Ummayyads to refuse accepting the conversions of dhimmis to Islam because they wanted to keep cashing in on their jizya?

    Peace.

    Yes, he does mention this. Evidently it is quite obvious to any knowledgeable scholar of the subject that many of the Muslim elite quickly realized, “Hey, wait a minute, somebody has to pay the taxes.” He also says that with regard to the Zoroastrians and Buddhists, a ruling was obtained that said that although they weren’t actually mentioned in The Book, they were equivalent and should be granted dhimmi status.

    I love opening windows into my ignorance.

    I never knew of the Ghassanids and the Lakhmids. I knew about the many Christian and other religious sects and groups in the Levant, the different language groups, but this book really brought it home for me. Talk about your multiculturalism!

    The frontiers of the Byzantine, Western Roman Empire and the Sassanid all followed the same pattern; foederati all over the place. The Arabs picked up this practice as they got to the far reaches of their conquests. I made note of the accommodations reached with Turkic tribes at the edges of the defeated Sassanid Empire. Like the Germanic tribes, I think these Turkic tribes show up later on in another role.

    I was not trying to rescue kum ba yah. I am as pessimist and skeptical as anyone. Once the meaning of a word changes it is usually not going to be reclaimed. We could ask Pollyanna about that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Dear iffen,

    Good stuff!


    they were equivalent and should be granted dhimmi status
     
    That was huge - thank God! Had the Companions made a different interpretation (and their unanimous precedents are our example in praxis), it would have been very, very grim...

    The Arabs picked up this practice
     

    Indeed, the genius in the earliest generation was that they realized their own limitations and preserved the prevailing order:
    "Positions in government administration and the economy were open to dhimmis. In fact, from the Arab conquest to the beginning of the eighth century, the language of the administration remained Persian in Iraq and Greek in Egypt and Syria. Only dhimmis, especially Christians, had the linguistic and administrative skills to keep the government functioning. Even after Arabization started under Caliph Abd al-Malik in the late seventh century, dhimmis continued to fill important positions in government."
    http://www.syriacstudies.com/2013/07/09/christians-and-jews-under-islam-najib-saliba-phd/

    Unlike, the fools of today who think their ideology will magically keep electric plants running or sewage ducts flowing even after you lop off the heads of the secular-minded experts in charge.

    I think these Turkic tribes show up later
     

    Boy do they ever! I won't spoil anything - the book sounds great! I am going to recommend it for others.

    I am as pessimist and skeptical as anyone.
     
    My advice; be skeptical, but be an optimist - the world needs more. And a hopeful (not naive) society has far better chances at longevity. This is at least the pattern I've seen throughout history.

    Peace.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    Hey Avery,

    Did you know this -- that the Young Turks who deposed the Ottoman sultan and instigated the Armenian genocide were "financed and led by Jews from the Balkans . . . Founded by Emanuel Carasso of Salonika, then in Turkey, now in Greece.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmrHBT5h-BA

    Yo, SolontoCroesus:

    I (we) know it all.
    We know about Dönmeh.
    We know about ADL and reptilian Abe Foxman working with Turks in their worldwide AG denialist campaign. And all the others.
    We know about the State of Israel helping Turkic Azerbaijan in their attempt to wipe out indigenous Armenians of Artsakh during the NKR war (1988-1994). Same with the 4-day-war in April of this year.
    We know it all.

    But since worldwide Armenians are small in number and our resources are quite limited, we have to concentrate on Osmanli Turks of Asia Minor (Turkey) and Caucasus Turks (aka Caspian Turks) of Azerbaijan: two states that are a real existential threat to Armenians in Caucasus (Armenia and Nagorno-Karabagh).

    Rest assured though we do not forget and will not forget.
    All accounts will be settled in good time.

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  • @Talha
    Hey S2C,

    And that same Young Turk leadership was liquidated by Armenian assassins in the highly successful 'Operation Nemesis' because they escaped the gallows:

    "In 1921, a tightly knit band of killers set out to avenge the deaths of almost one million victims of the Armenian Genocide. They were a humble bunch: an accountant, a life insurance salesman, a newspaper editor, an engineering student, and a diplomat. Together they formed one of the most effective assassination squads in history. They named their operation Nemesis, after the Greek goddess of retribution. The assassins were survivors, men defined by the massive tragedy that had devastated their people. With operatives on three continents, the Nemesis team killed six major Turkish leaders in Berlin, Constantinople, Tiflis, and Rome, only to disband and suddenly disappear. "
    https://www.amazon.com/Operation-Nemesis-Assassination-Armenian-Genocide/dp/0316292087

    Peace.

    Yo, Talha:

    Thanks for the post.
    Greatly appreciated.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Yo Avery,

    No problem. There is little love lost between me and secular ethno-nationalist Turks that, in their pursuit of a pure-Turkish utopia, ran roughshod over the souls of thousands upon thousands of innocent people - and dragged the name of my religion through the mud.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    Hey Avery,

    Did you know this -- that the Young Turks who deposed the Ottoman sultan and instigated the Armenian genocide were "financed and led by Jews from the Balkans . . . Founded by Emanuel Carasso of Salonika, then in Turkey, now in Greece.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmrHBT5h-BA

    Hey S2C,

    And that same Young Turk leadership was liquidated by Armenian assassins in the highly successful ‘Operation Nemesis’ because they escaped the gallows:

    “In 1921, a tightly knit band of killers set out to avenge the deaths of almost one million victims of the Armenian Genocide. They were a humble bunch: an accountant, a life insurance salesman, a newspaper editor, an engineering student, and a diplomat. Together they formed one of the most effective assassination squads in history. They named their operation Nemesis, after the Greek goddess of retribution. The assassins were survivors, men defined by the massive tragedy that had devastated their people. With operatives on three continents, the Nemesis team killed six major Turkish leaders in Berlin, Constantinople, Tiflis, and Rome, only to disband and suddenly disappear. ”

    https://www.amazon.com/Operation-Nemesis-Assassination-Armenian-Genocide/dp/0316292087

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    Yo, Talha:

    Thanks for the post.
    Greatly appreciated.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Jacques Sheete

    Britain is a master at propaganda
     
    While that is certainly true, the follwing will need some documentation.

    ...and the Belgian Congo atrocities were nothing but propaganda so the British could justify going in and taking over Congo itself.
     
    Anyway, why did the Belgians decide to take it over and call it the Belgian Congo instead of the Brits?

    On a side note regarding perfidious and treacherous Albion, I wonder how many know that the Brits ran horrible, terroristic concentration camps in Kenya up to and including the 1950s.

    Here's a good read:

    https://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Reckoning-Untold-Story-Britains/dp/0805080015

    The first concentration camps were set up by the British during the Boer Wars, in response to Boer guerilla warfare. About 25,000 women and children perished there. And of course it was the British, not the Germans, who initiated terror bombing during WW2. (Rotterdam and Warsaw were ancillary to the primary military target, the British intentionally bombed civilian targets well behind the front lines. Although, unlike the Americans, the British at least had the honesty to admit they would be prosecuted as war criminals if they lost the war.) Don’t forget the forced famine in Bengal that killed 1M. I’m barely scratching the surface of British perfidy, suffice to say they have killled far more people than anything the Germans have been realistically accused of.

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    • Agree: SolontoCroesus
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  • @Avery
    {Helping/paying out billions to Iran to develop nuclear weapons over time. }

    US is not 'paying out' $ billions to Iran.
    It was their $ billions that US illegally froze: in effect preventing Iran from using their own money to invest, earn interest, etc. Theft.
    And even if US had not gone along, EU would lift the sanctions regardless, so it was a moot point. US saw the writing on the wall and went along, Obama or no Obama.

    {Any white European person who thinks Muslims + nukes is a good thing is clinically insane.}

    That train left the station a long time ago.
    As others have pointed out, radical Islamistan Pakistan does have nukes and tested delivery systems: max range of their nuke missile is advertised as 1,700 miles.

    And guess what: US helped Islamistan Pakistan develop nukes.

    {In the late 80s, in the course of tracking down smugglers of WMD components, Barlow uncovered reams of material that related to Pakistan. It was known the Islamic Republic had been covertly striving to acquire nuclear weapons since India's explosion of a device in 1974 and the prospect terrified the west - especially given the instability of a nation that had had three military coups in less than 30 years . Straddling deep ethnic, religious and political fault-lines, it was also a country regularly rocked by inter-communal violence. "Pakistan was the kind of place where technology could slip out of control," Barlow says.

    He soon discovered, however, that senior officials in government were taking quite the opposite view: they were breaking US and international non-proliferation protocols to shelter Pakistan's ambitions and even sell it banned WMD technology. In the closing years of the cold war, Pakistan was considered to have great strategic importance. It provided Washington with a springboard into neighbouring Afghanistan - a route for passing US weapons and cash to the mujahideen, who were battling to oust the Soviet army that had invaded in 1979. Barlow says, "We had to buddy-up to regimes we didn't see eye-to-eye with, but I could not believe we would actually give Pakistan the bomb.}

    (TheGuardian 2007. [ The man who knew too much.
    He was the CIA's expert on Pakistan's nuclear secrets, but Rich Barlow was thrown out and disgraced when he blew the whistle on a US cover-up. Now he's to have his day in court. Adrian Levy and Cathy Scott-Clark report])

    Hey Avery,

    Did you know this — that the Young Turks who deposed the Ottoman sultan and instigated the Armenian genocide were “financed and led by Jews from the Balkans . . . Founded by Emanuel Carasso of Salonika, then in Turkey, now in Greece.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey S2C,

    And that same Young Turk leadership was liquidated by Armenian assassins in the highly successful 'Operation Nemesis' because they escaped the gallows:

    "In 1921, a tightly knit band of killers set out to avenge the deaths of almost one million victims of the Armenian Genocide. They were a humble bunch: an accountant, a life insurance salesman, a newspaper editor, an engineering student, and a diplomat. Together they formed one of the most effective assassination squads in history. They named their operation Nemesis, after the Greek goddess of retribution. The assassins were survivors, men defined by the massive tragedy that had devastated their people. With operatives on three continents, the Nemesis team killed six major Turkish leaders in Berlin, Constantinople, Tiflis, and Rome, only to disband and suddenly disappear. "
    https://www.amazon.com/Operation-Nemesis-Assassination-Armenian-Genocide/dp/0316292087

    Peace.
    , @Avery
    Yo, SolontoCroesus:

    I (we) know it all.
    We know about Dönmeh.
    We know about ADL and reptilian Abe Foxman working with Turks in their worldwide AG denialist campaign. And all the others.
    We know about the State of Israel helping Turkic Azerbaijan in their attempt to wipe out indigenous Armenians of Artsakh during the NKR war (1988-1994). Same with the 4-day-war in April of this year.
    We know it all.

    But since worldwide Armenians are small in number and our resources are quite limited, we have to concentrate on Osmanli Turks of Asia Minor (Turkey) and Caucasus Turks (aka Caspian Turks) of Azerbaijan: two states that are a real existential threat to Armenians in Caucasus (Armenia and Nagorno-Karabagh).

    Rest assured though we do not forget and will not forget.
    All accounts will be settled in good time.
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  • @Clyde
    Islam is the world's most successful imperialism. It has a fourteen century track record of barbaric conquest and annihilation. You can turn to the Armenian and Greek genocides of the 1920's for a fine example of mass murder of millions by Muslims. In this case the Turks and their Ottoman Empire. The Aztec bloodletters with their human sacrifices of thousands at a time were not around so long. Muhammad's legacy is far more bloody and enduring.
    In fact it is still with us today in the form of ISIS and other Koran quoting barbarians.

    You mean the crimes of the Donmeh Turks? I.e., crypto-Jews?

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  • @iffen
    That was from Wiki which I meant to add.

    Many years ago when my daughter was a Girl Scout we sang it all the time, so I know it from real life and from the disdainful and mocking references we see today.

    You have my deep respect

    And you have mine for maintaining your belief in the universal brotherhood of man, in spite of what we find here at UR, and your determination to present factual information time and again to the haters and the ignorant.

    For you from A. Camus:

    "The struggle itself [...] is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy."

    By the way, how’s it going in the book? Did they discuss the penchant for the early Ummayyads to refuse accepting the conversions of dhimmis to Islam because they wanted to keep cashing in on their jizya?

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    Yes, he does mention this. Evidently it is quite obvious to any knowledgeable scholar of the subject that many of the Muslim elite quickly realized, “Hey, wait a minute, somebody has to pay the taxes.” He also says that with regard to the Zoroastrians and Buddhists, a ruling was obtained that said that although they weren’t actually mentioned in The Book, they were equivalent and should be granted dhimmi status.

    I love opening windows into my ignorance.

    I never knew of the Ghassanids and the Lakhmids. I knew about the many Christian and other religious sects and groups in the Levant, the different language groups, but this book really brought it home for me. Talk about your multiculturalism!

    The frontiers of the Byzantine, Western Roman Empire and the Sassanid all followed the same pattern; foederati all over the place. The Arabs picked up this practice as they got to the far reaches of their conquests. I made note of the accommodations reached with Turkic tribes at the edges of the defeated Sassanid Empire. Like the Germanic tribes, I think these Turkic tribes show up later on in another role.

    I was not trying to rescue kum ba yah. I am as pessimist and skeptical as anyone. Once the meaning of a word changes it is usually not going to be reclaimed. We could ask Pollyanna about that.
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  • @Clyde
    Right on bro. No one understands blacks except blacks and no one knows Islam and understands Muslims except for Muslims. You post so much Muslim clarifications/propaganda/whatever at Unz, you really should try posting at Jihad Watch and see the counter arguments you will get. And maybe from Spencer himself.
    You post something to me that I will read and maybe a few others, while at Jihad Watch there would be much wider distribution of you arguments. Maybe you will bring some of them over to your side.

    What I get from you is that the only infidel authors who meet your high standards are Karen Armstrong and ones like her who are abysmal cave-ins and arse-kissers for Islam.

    you really should try posting at Jihad Watch and see the counter arguments you will get

    Have you seen the comments section at that site? It makes the commentators on Sailer’s threads look like ‘high society’. I have as much desire to post on that site as I do to walk into an insane asylum and turn off the lights. They are as objective as BLM – why don’t you walk into one of their meetings and see if you can get an intellectual conversation going?

    Maybe you will bring some of them over to your side.

    I’m not interested in convincing them of anything. They have their own intellects to figure out whether they are being duped. If they like the tune, they can keep dancing – I have no desire to crash their party. My goal is to undercut the foundations of their claims to legitimacy. If they want to claim what “Muslims” or “Islam” states to practice or believe, they have to bring evidence of their claims by the overwhelming consensus of our scholars, otherwise it’s their interpretation of our source texts which is fine for them, but means zero for us. No Muslim cares what a non-Muslim claims that our Qur’an states, no non-Muslim exegesis is valid, their transmission of hadith is invalid, their ‘fatwas’ are invalid. We do not seek your validation. Anybody who is reading with an academic and objective bent can read what I say and evaluate my claims (from the traditional Orthodox Sunni perspective – the super-majority voice of Muslims throughout all of history) versus theirs – those people are my audience; you’re just providing me a platform.

    If I claim all Orthodox Jews are commanded to rob Christian children and eat them, I better damn well present something authentic from a good number of their recognized Rabbis to back up my claim, especially if I want to claim that as an absolute practice. And they feel no shame claiming we are permitted to rape young boys through Qur’anic verses – you expect me to treat that with respect??!!

    Men like Imam Sarakhsi (ra) did not spend their lives studying and writing 30 volume works (partially from pure memory from inside a prison cell):

    http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=2306

    And our scholars didn’t spend sleepless nights to preserve, teach and disseminate such works just so some goobers could set up shop on some corner of the internet to make claims as to what we believe and do (and not even be bothered to learn Arabic – Arabic!).

    the only infidel authors who meet your high standards are Karen Armstrong and ones like her

    Missed my point…while we appreciate Mrs. Armstrong’s works (or people like Dr. Esposito), her claims as to what we believe and practice are also only valid insofar as she backs up her claims through the legitimate voices of our historic and living tradition. They are also unqualified to interpret source texts except for themselves.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Clyde

    If they want to claim what “Muslims” or “Islam” states to practice or believe, they have to bring evidence of their claims by the overwhelming consensus of our scholars, otherwise it’s their interpretation of our source texts which is fine for them, but means zero for us.
     
    You can claim zero meaning all you want but my opinion of the Muslim world and its many Jihads (about 20 ongoing) is based on the actions of Muslims. Scholars and religious theory are important but actions count more for me. Talk is cheap. The acts and actions of Islam and Muslims are more revealing.
    Ongoing Jihads such as in Europe, Philippines, Malaysia, Kashmir, Middle East, about five Jihads just there alone!
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  • @iffen
    That was from Wiki which I meant to add.

    Many years ago when my daughter was a Girl Scout we sang it all the time, so I know it from real life and from the disdainful and mocking references we see today.

    You have my deep respect

    And you have mine for maintaining your belief in the universal brotherhood of man, in spite of what we find here at UR, and your determination to present factual information time and again to the haters and the ignorant.

    For you from A. Camus:

    "The struggle itself [...] is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy."

    Hey iffen,

    From one girl scout’s father to another, I definitely didn’t mean any offense.

    Every family has its black-sheep, no? Muslims definitely have a fair share of ours. The universal brotherhood is built into the Islamic ethos. Can a person think of himself as superior to another based on race or other factors and still be a Muslim? Sure, good luck getting your spiritual ship out of the harbor with your ego anchoring you down.

    Love that quote.

    Peace.

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  • @annamaria
    Ashton Carter, the current Sec of Defense, "Brings Record of Friendship With Israel to Pentagon:" http://forward.com/news/israel/210653/ashton-carter-brings-record-of-friendship-with-isr/
    Carter was installed by the ziocons (thus replacing the honorable veteran Hagel) in order to continue the ziocons' murderous plans in the Middle East.
    "Hagel was pushed out over his inability to pierce the inner circle in the White House national security team [ziocon cabal], and because his approach to drawing down troops was seen as no longer appropriate given increased U.S. involvement in conflict zones overseas.... “Virtually every administration has made close military ties with Israel a military priority,” Cordesman said in an interview. “It is simply a fact of American political life.”

    See the US/Israel cooperation with ISIS and other "moderate" jihadis belonging to Al Qaeda. http://theduran.com/us-pentagon-throws-full-support-behind-al-qaeda-syria-exclusion-zones-ready-shot-syrian-russian-planes/

    Right on bro. No one understands blacks except blacks and no one knows Islam and understands Muslims except for Muslims. You post so much Muslim clarifications/propaganda/whatever at Unz, you really should try posting at Jihad Watch and see the counter arguments you will get. And maybe from Spencer himself.
    You post something to me that I will read and maybe a few others, while at Jihad Watch there would be much wider distribution of you arguments. Maybe you will bring some of them over to your side.

    What I get from you is that the only infidel authors who meet your high standards are Karen Armstrong and ones like her who are abysmal cave-ins and arse-kissers for Islam.

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    • Replies: @Talha

    you really should try posting at Jihad Watch and see the counter arguments you will get
     
    Have you seen the comments section at that site? It makes the commentators on Sailer's threads look like 'high society'. I have as much desire to post on that site as I do to walk into an insane asylum and turn off the lights. They are as objective as BLM - why don't you walk into one of their meetings and see if you can get an intellectual conversation going?

    Maybe you will bring some of them over to your side.
     
    I'm not interested in convincing them of anything. They have their own intellects to figure out whether they are being duped. If they like the tune, they can keep dancing - I have no desire to crash their party. My goal is to undercut the foundations of their claims to legitimacy. If they want to claim what "Muslims" or "Islam" states to practice or believe, they have to bring evidence of their claims by the overwhelming consensus of our scholars, otherwise it's their interpretation of our source texts which is fine for them, but means zero for us. No Muslim cares what a non-Muslim claims that our Qur'an states, no non-Muslim exegesis is valid, their transmission of hadith is invalid, their 'fatwas' are invalid. We do not seek your validation. Anybody who is reading with an academic and objective bent can read what I say and evaluate my claims (from the traditional Orthodox Sunni perspective - the super-majority voice of Muslims throughout all of history) versus theirs - those people are my audience; you're just providing me a platform.

    If I claim all Orthodox Jews are commanded to rob Christian children and eat them, I better damn well present something authentic from a good number of their recognized Rabbis to back up my claim, especially if I want to claim that as an absolute practice. And they feel no shame claiming we are permitted to rape young boys through Qur'anic verses - you expect me to treat that with respect??!!

    Men like Imam Sarakhsi (ra) did not spend their lives studying and writing 30 volume works (partially from pure memory from inside a prison cell):
    http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=2306

    And our scholars didn't spend sleepless nights to preserve, teach and disseminate such works just so some goobers could set up shop on some corner of the internet to make claims as to what we believe and do (and not even be bothered to learn Arabic - Arabic!).


    the only infidel authors who meet your high standards are Karen Armstrong and ones like her
     
    Missed my point...while we appreciate Mrs. Armstrong's works (or people like Dr. Esposito), her claims as to what we believe and practice are also only valid insofar as she backs up her claims through the legitimate voices of our historic and living tradition. They are also unqualified to interpret source texts except for themselves.

    Peace.

    , @annamaria
    "Right on bro."

    Has my post offended your sentiments toward Ashton Carter?

    Here is a main point of the post: "Hagel was pushed out over his inability to pierce the inner circle in the White House national security team [ziocon cabal], and because his approach to drawing down troops was seen as no longer appropriate given increased U.S. involvement in conflict zones overseas…. “Virtually every administration has made close military ties with Israel a military priority,” Cordesman said in an interview. “It is simply a fact of American political life.”

    The same shameful process of pushing out principled professionals was used by Douglas Feith against Colonel Lang: http://www.mepc.org/journal/middle-east-policy-archives/drinking-kool-aid?print
    Who is Colonel Lang? - a "retired senior officer of U.S. Military Intelligence and U.S. Army Special Forces (The Green Berets). He served in the Department of Defense both as a serving officer and then as a member of the Defense Senior Executive Service for many years. He is a highly decorated veteran of several of America’s overseas conflicts including the war in Vietnam. He was trained and educated as a specialist in the Middle East by the U.S. Army and served in that region for many years...." http://turcopolier.typepad.com/about.html
    Who is Douglas Feith? - an Israel-firster: http://davidswanson.org/node/756 He is also know as "the fucking stupidest guy on the face of the earth:" http://pushingrope.blogspot.com/2007/04/more-proof-douglas-feith-is-idiot.html
    The ziocon cabal has been pushing out the military experts in the Middle East, while bringing in the unprincipled careerists of armchair-pursuasion (see Ash Carter, Doug Feith, and the despicable Wolfowitz).
    What is not clear about Carter's mission as Sec of Def? - He is a wet dream of war profiteers and Israel-firsters.
    Or maybe you did not like the statement about US/Israel collaboration with ISIS? - Then refute it with facts.
    "Israeli Military Admits to Supporting Syrian Jihadis:" http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/07/israeli-military-admits-to-supporting-syrian-jihadis.html
    "U.S. General: West Created ISIS:" https://americanfreepress.net/general-blows-whistle-on-islamic-state/
    "Israeli Intel Chief: We Don’t Want ISIS Defeated in Syria:" http://news.antiwar.com/2016/06/21/israeli-intel-chief-we-dont-want-isis-defeated-in-syria/
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  • @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    You have my deep respect if you got through that long post. I hope it explains why someone like me doesn't take that nonsense seriously.

    Thanks for the historical reference - I did not know this.

    The song was originally a simple appeal to God to come and help those in need.
     
    That's what tahajjud prayer is for - ;)

    Peace.

    That was from Wiki which I meant to add.

    Many years ago when my daughter was a Girl Scout we sang it all the time, so I know it from real life and from the disdainful and mocking references we see today.

    You have my deep respect

    And you have mine for maintaining your belief in the universal brotherhood of man, in spite of what we find here at UR, and your determination to present factual information time and again to the haters and the ignorant.

    For you from A. Camus:

    “The struggle itself [...] is enough to fill a man’s heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    From one girl scout's father to another, I definitely didn't mean any offense.

    Every family has its black-sheep, no? Muslims definitely have a fair share of ours. The universal brotherhood is built into the Islamic ethos. Can a person think of himself as superior to another based on race or other factors and still be a Muslim? Sure, good luck getting your spiritual ship out of the harbor with your ego anchoring you down.

    Love that quote.

    Peace.
    , @Talha
    By the way, how's it going in the book? Did they discuss the penchant for the early Ummayyads to refuse accepting the conversions of dhimmis to Islam because they wanted to keep cashing in on their jizya?

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    It is an incredible feat of propaganda that they have pulled off in keeping this buried from the public!

    Peace.

    Ashton Carter, the current Sec of Defense, “Brings Record of Friendship With Israel to Pentagon:” http://forward.com/news/israel/210653/ashton-carter-brings-record-of-friendship-with-isr/
    Carter was installed by the ziocons (thus replacing the honorable veteran Hagel) in order to continue the ziocons’ murderous plans in the Middle East.
    “Hagel was pushed out over his inability to pierce the inner circle in the White House national security team [ziocon cabal], and because his approach to drawing down troops was seen as no longer appropriate given increased U.S. involvement in conflict zones overseas…. “Virtually every administration has made close military ties with Israel a military priority,” Cordesman said in an interview. “It is simply a fact of American political life.”

    See the US/Israel cooperation with ISIS and other “moderate” jihadis belonging to Al Qaeda. http://theduran.com/us-pentagon-throws-full-support-behind-al-qaeda-syria-exclusion-zones-ready-shot-syrian-russian-planes/

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    • Replies: @Clyde
    Right on bro. No one understands blacks except blacks and no one knows Islam and understands Muslims except for Muslims. You post so much Muslim clarifications/propaganda/whatever at Unz, you really should try posting at Jihad Watch and see the counter arguments you will get. And maybe from Spencer himself.
    You post something to me that I will read and maybe a few others, while at Jihad Watch there would be much wider distribution of you arguments. Maybe you will bring some of them over to your side.

    What I get from you is that the only infidel authors who meet your high standards are Karen Armstrong and ones like her who are abysmal cave-ins and arse-kissers for Islam.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Chris Mallory
    The Islamofascists and the Judeofascists are both Anti-Western Civilization. I choose to deport both groups from the West and let them fight it out between themselves in the cesspit of the Middle East.

    Rothschilds are anti everybody but THEMSELVES, they created this mess, not Muslims. You are a little confused.

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  • @annamaria
    https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20160623/1041776747/israel-prefers-isis-to-iran.html
    "While Israel has stated in the past that it prefers Daesh, also known as ISIS/Islamic State, over the Syrian government under Assad, Israeli military intelligence chief Major General Herzi Halevy has taken that assertion further, telling the Herzliya Conference this week that Israel does not, in fact, want to see the fundamentalist group defeated."

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/israeli-intelligence-chief-not-want-isis-defeat-syria/
    "Israeli Intelligence chief: We do not want ISIS defeat in Syria"

    ISIS is mainly what was formerly known as BLACKWATER, that’s why most wear masks and are covered head to toe in arid conditions. isishq.com

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  • They all worship the Rothschilds. Why is everyone afraid to mention them?

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  • @Talha
    It is an incredible feat of propaganda that they have pulled off in keeping this buried from the public!

    Peace.

    The story is going on:

    “…the Pentagon and Israelis want to keep Nusra as their strongest force against Damascus.
    Ashton Carter [the US secretary of defense] .. like the Israelis … wants more war in Syria. He is one of the strongest anti-Russian voices in the Obama administration, and he would be very happy to humiliate Russia in Syria… During the negotiations in Geneva, Kerry called the Pentagon and the White House every few minutes. The negotiators could not proceed with even the smallest amendments without approval by Carter or Obama. ”

    http://www.unz.com/ishamir/pizza-and-vodka-secrets-coming-out/

    Ashton Carter had sold his soul to war-profiteering ziocons long time ago:
    “From 1990 to 1993, Carter was chairman of the Editorial Board of International Security…. In 1997, Carter and former CIA Director John M. Deutch co-chaired the Catastrophic Terrorism Study Group which urged greater attention to terrorism. In 1998 Carter, Deutch and Philip Zelikow (later executive director of the 9/11 Commission) published an article on “catastrophic terrorism” in Foreign Affairs.
    Carter was a supporter of the 2003 invasion of Iraq, as well as an advocate of preventive wars against North Korea and Iran. In response to increase in tension in Ukraine, Carter considered proposing deployment of ground-launched cruise missiles in Europe that could pre-emptively destroy Russian weapons.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_Carter

    One wonders whether the Defense Secretary Ashton Carter has any idea about the $6.5 trillions that Pentagon is not able to account?

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  • @Talha
    It is an incredible feat of propaganda that they have pulled off in keeping this buried from the public!

    Peace.

    SJW’s are gleefully pushing something out of context. Here are the posts I offered to Kiza:

    http://www.unz.com/article/fifty-one-foreign-service-officers-cant-be-wrong/#comment-1463435

    and

    http://www.unz.com/article/fifty-one-foreign-service-officers-cant-be-wrong/#comment-1463542

    Halevy was speaking with an eye to border defense if a sudden vacuum is created. Very different than the nonsensical playacting that crowd the minds of SJWs busily hammering away at keyboards.

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  • @Clyde
    You should debate Robert Spencer in whatever form you propose. If he is not too busy I think he would accept. I used to go to his site every day for a few years but this was a while ago.
    Spencer knows all the Koran and Hadith quotes that back up his arguments so you better be careful. His origins are the Eastern Church. I forget a bit...maybe Greek. His people had first hand experience with Muslim wars and oppression via the murderous Ottoman Empire.

    You can sling all the peaceful ecumenical verses you like but lets not forget that the latter Koran war verses from Medina abrogate the "nice" Meccan ones where Muhammad was a flop. So he made Hegira like you made Hegira. The doctrine of conquest via Hegira is why a million Muslims "the emigrants" Al-Muhajiroun (Arabic: المهاجرون ‎‎; The Emigrants) jammed into infidel Germany last year under idiot Merkel who must be your heroine.

    Not going to waste my time with Spencer…

    Spencer knows all the Koran and Hadith quotes that back up his arguments so you better be careful.

    Yet doesn’t know Arabic…sigh…

    What part of “bring proof from our scholars” do you not understand. If he wants to debate at the Qur’an and hadith level, he can take it up with Daesh. They also think they are qualified to go straight to the Qur’amn and hadith. Problem is there wouldn’t be much of a debate since they agree on so much.

    His people had first hand experience with Muslim wars and oppression via the murderous Ottoman Empire.

    So he has a chip on his shoulder against Turks and made a life mission out of it.

    lets not forget that the latter Koran war verses from Medina abrogate the “nice” Meccan ones

    Let’s not forget that is only according to some scholars, whom Spencer references often while ignoring all the other authorities (like Imams Razi [ra], Zamakhshari [ra], Suyuti [ra], Baydawi [ra], etc.):

    http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2010/11/06/jihad-abrogation-in-the-quran-the-verse-of-the-sword/

    DWMT.

    Peace.

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  • @annamaria
    https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20160623/1041776747/israel-prefers-isis-to-iran.html
    "While Israel has stated in the past that it prefers Daesh, also known as ISIS/Islamic State, over the Syrian government under Assad, Israeli military intelligence chief Major General Herzi Halevy has taken that assertion further, telling the Herzliya Conference this week that Israel does not, in fact, want to see the fundamentalist group defeated."

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/israeli-intelligence-chief-not-want-isis-defeat-syria/
    "Israeli Intelligence chief: We do not want ISIS defeat in Syria"

    It is an incredible feat of propaganda that they have pulled off in keeping this buried from the public!

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    SJW's are gleefully pushing something out of context. Here are the posts I offered to Kiza:

    http://www.unz.com/article/fifty-one-foreign-service-officers-cant-be-wrong/#comment-1463435

    and

    http://www.unz.com/article/fifty-one-foreign-service-officers-cant-be-wrong/#comment-1463542

    Halevy was speaking with an eye to border defense if a sudden vacuum is created. Very different than the nonsensical playacting that crowd the minds of SJWs busily hammering away at keyboards.

    , @annamaria
    The story is going on:

    "...the Pentagon and Israelis want to keep Nusra as their strongest force against Damascus.
    Ashton Carter [the US secretary of defense] .. like the Israelis ... wants more war in Syria. He is one of the strongest anti-Russian voices in the Obama administration, and he would be very happy to humiliate Russia in Syria... During the negotiations in Geneva, Kerry called the Pentagon and the White House every few minutes. The negotiators could not proceed with even the smallest amendments without approval by Carter or Obama. "
    http://www.unz.com/ishamir/pizza-and-vodka-secrets-coming-out/

    Ashton Carter had sold his soul to war-profiteering ziocons long time ago:
    "From 1990 to 1993, Carter was chairman of the Editorial Board of International Security.... In 1997, Carter and former CIA Director John M. Deutch co-chaired the Catastrophic Terrorism Study Group which urged greater attention to terrorism. In 1998 Carter, Deutch and Philip Zelikow (later executive director of the 9/11 Commission) published an article on “catastrophic terrorism” in Foreign Affairs.
    Carter was a supporter of the 2003 invasion of Iraq, as well as an advocate of preventive wars against North Korea and Iran. In response to increase in tension in Ukraine, Carter considered proposing deployment of ground-launched cruise missiles in Europe that could pre-emptively destroy Russian weapons." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_Carter

    One wonders whether the Defense Secretary Ashton Carter has any idea about the $6.5 trillions that Pentagon is not able to account?
    , @annamaria
    Ashton Carter, the current Sec of Defense, "Brings Record of Friendship With Israel to Pentagon:" http://forward.com/news/israel/210653/ashton-carter-brings-record-of-friendship-with-isr/
    Carter was installed by the ziocons (thus replacing the honorable veteran Hagel) in order to continue the ziocons' murderous plans in the Middle East.
    "Hagel was pushed out over his inability to pierce the inner circle in the White House national security team [ziocon cabal], and because his approach to drawing down troops was seen as no longer appropriate given increased U.S. involvement in conflict zones overseas.... “Virtually every administration has made close military ties with Israel a military priority,” Cordesman said in an interview. “It is simply a fact of American political life.”

    See the US/Israel cooperation with ISIS and other "moderate" jihadis belonging to Al Qaeda. http://theduran.com/us-pentagon-throws-full-support-behind-al-qaeda-syria-exclusion-zones-ready-shot-syrian-russian-planes/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @iffen
    We are not perennialist SJWs – you want Unitarian Church campfires – join them.

    Muslims don't sing kumbayah.

    Say it isn't so, Talha.

    Kum ba yah ("Come by Here") is a spiritual song first recorded in the 1920s. It became a standard campfire song in Scouting and summer camps and enjoyed broader popularity during the folk revival of the 1950s and 1960s.

    The song was originally a simple appeal to God to come and help those in need.

    Hey iffen,

    You have my deep respect if you got through that long post. I hope it explains why someone like me doesn’t take that nonsense seriously.

    Thanks for the historical reference – I did not know this.

    The song was originally a simple appeal to God to come and help those in need.

    That’s what tahajjud prayer is for – ;)

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    That was from Wiki which I meant to add.

    Many years ago when my daughter was a Girl Scout we sang it all the time, so I know it from real life and from the disdainful and mocking references we see today.

    You have my deep respect

    And you have mine for maintaining your belief in the universal brotherhood of man, in spite of what we find here at UR, and your determination to present factual information time and again to the haters and the ignorant.

    For you from A. Camus:

    "The struggle itself [...] is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy."
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @annamaria
    https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20160623/1041776747/israel-prefers-isis-to-iran.html
    "While Israel has stated in the past that it prefers Daesh, also known as ISIS/Islamic State, over the Syrian government under Assad, Israeli military intelligence chief Major General Herzi Halevy has taken that assertion further, telling the Herzliya Conference this week that Israel does not, in fact, want to see the fundamentalist group defeated."

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/israeli-intelligence-chief-not-want-isis-defeat-syria/
    "Israeli Intelligence chief: We do not want ISIS defeat in Syria"

    Thanks Anna! Much, much obliged!

    Peace.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Israeli officials have actually said that the elimination of Daesh would be against their interests
     
    Bro, can you cite a reference for this? I'd love to have it on file. I have a quote regarding this position from some Israeli think-tank but nothing from the equivalent of an actual bonafide government source - that would be gold!

    Peace.

    https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20160623/1041776747/israel-prefers-isis-to-iran.html

    “While Israel has stated in the past that it prefers Daesh, also known as ISIS/Islamic State, over the Syrian government under Assad, Israeli military intelligence chief Major General Herzi Halevy has taken that assertion further, telling the Herzliya Conference this week that Israel does not, in fact, want to see the fundamentalist group defeated.”

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/israeli-intelligence-chief-not-want-isis-defeat-syria/

    “Israeli Intelligence chief: We do not want ISIS defeat in Syria”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Thanks Anna! Much, much obliged!

    Peace.
    , @Talha
    It is an incredible feat of propaganda that they have pulled off in keeping this buried from the public!

    Peace.
    , @TOM GILES
    ISIS is mainly what was formerly known as BLACKWATER, that's why most wear masks and are covered head to toe in arid conditions. isishq.com
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    I was thinking about ignoring this one, but thought I'd 'splain something before I start ignoring...

    the brotherhood in Islam is not universal
     
    Partially correct. There are two brotherhoods; 1) the general one of Bani Adam (Children of Adam) of which all of us are members which has rights and obligations and 2) the specific one of the Ummah. The Ummah has its own rights and obligations of brotherhood. It is a commitment, not lip service; I can be friends, co-workers or co-citizens with others just fine but they are not my brother unless they are willing to stand next to me in prayer, face the same qiblah and place their head on the ground. This translates into reality; if a Muslim army faces a non-Muslim army, it is allowed to attack them even if they are retreating (see Qadisiyah) - but against another Muslim army, this is not permitted. 'Brother' means something substantial - see the tone in which I was advised in comment #100. We are not perennialist SJWs - you want Unitarian Church campfires - join them.

    Furthermore, I hardly think I need to take lessons from a man who wouldn't know 'universal brotherhood' if it hit him in the face. I've seen how you talk about non-Whites (whether or not the majority of them are Christian) and it's far beyond any kind of objective analysis/criticism of the realities on the ground. So sell your wares elsewhere - I ain't buying.

    I went to the link and of course the entire discussion on the Golden Rule doesn't even bring this verse into consideration:
    "God does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, God loves those who act justly." (60:8)

    The discussion of which actually doesn't even matter as I'm about to 'splain.

    The non believers have no rights and should not be treated in the same way that Muslims are to be treated.
     
    But first...BS.

    According to Muslims
     
    I'm glad Mr. Spencer, some guy named Ali Sina and you have an inflated opinion of yourselves. If you feel you can define what 'Islam says' or what 'Muslims say' then that is all well and good and anybody reading has a right to believe you.

    Now if you want to convince a Muslim, good luck. You don't get to define the parameters, we do - it's our religion. Just as I don't get to define what constitutes authority in Catholicism. You want to tinker around with the definitions of a religion, come up with one yourself. A discussion between you, Spencer and Ali Sina throwing around hadith and Qur'an verses counts for exactly zero because neither of you is qualified to formulate an opinion on the subject based on source texts (inasmuch as my plumber can have an opinion on gravitational waves). Neither am I, in fact. In none of that entire discussion do I see a reference to a single legitimate Islamic scholar who holds the same opinion as your conclusions.

    Going further, if one wants to claim 'Islam says' anything, the burden of proof on them is to show a consistent consensus ruling across all four existing schools of Sunni Orthodoxy (a higher bar would be to throw in the Ibadis and the Shiahs - but Sunnis constitute a massive super-majority [especially since Zaydi Shiahs are practically Sunni] so I'm willing to set the bar lower). So for instance a person can state; Islam says that a healthy adult must fast during daylight hours in the month of Ramadan or that a Muslim female is prohibited from marrying a non-Muslim male - both those have unanimity across the board without dissent. Otherwise one can certainly point out that the Shafi'i school only allows blood money to be paid in the case that a Muslim murders a non-Muslim however the Hanafi school (which has the largest following historically and currently) states blood-for-blood and that the Muslim can be put to death at the behest of the non-Muslim's relatives. In this case, one can truthfully only state that this is the Shafi'i or Hanafi opinion on the matter. Furthermore, an appeal to an obscure ruling in an extinct school (like those of Imam Awzai [ra], Layth [ra], Tabari [ra], etc.) is simply an act of desperation because those opinions exist only in books and nobody practices them - otherwise things like backbiting would break one's fast.

    So what do Hanafi scholars (the school I and the majority of Muslims follow) say about the "non believers have no rights" statement? Imam Ibn Humam (ra) who wrote the commentary Fath ul-Qadeer (on Imam Marghinani's original work, the Hidaya [which I am currently studying under my teacher]) wrote about simply the honor of a non-Muslim dhimmi citizen; backbiting him is unlawful just as backbiting a Muslim is unlawful. Imam ibn Abidin (ra) adopts this opinion in his super-commentary known as Radd al- Muhtar, explaining that oppression against a non-Muslim citizen is worse, saying that it is “because with the contractual dhimma pact, everything obligatory towards [one of] us is obligatory towards him, so if backbiting a Muslim is impermissible then backbiting him is [also] impermissible. In fact, they [our prior scholars] said that oppression against a non-Muslim citizen is worse.” He goes on to state that a Muslim can be punished by the authorities for simply denigrating a dhimmi with words like "O, Kafir (unbeliever)!" or "O, Enemy of God!"

    Who was Imam Ibn Abidin (ra)? A Levantine Ottoman Hanafi scholar (18/19th century) of such vast knowledge that when he came on the scene, it's as if all the other Hanafis sat down and shut up to listen. His book, Radd ul-Muhtar, is the one students training to be Hanafi muftis have to master, from the East to the West:
    http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2012/11/20/hanafi-texts-the-difference-between-primers-and-reference-works-in-islamic-law/
    http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=3408

    So, if you want someone like me to believe you (or pay attention) when you say 'Islam says' something, bring proof from our scholars, specifically a reference for a consensus ruling or opinion on an issue. Otherwise, if you want to challenge Imam Ibn Abidin's (ra) opinion; convert, study Arabic morphology and grammar and rhetoric, logic, hadith sciences, sciences of Qur'anic exegesis, the hadith corpus, and then the fatwa reference works of Imams Tahawi (ra), al-Aini (ra), Jassas (ra), etc. get a certification from Azhar, Sarhanpur or Nadwa tul-Ulama, etc. or some other institute of Hanafi jurisprudence and then come back after 15/20 years as Mufti Clyde and we'll talk.

    At this point, I neither have the time nor the inclination to deal with this Mickey Mouse whack-a-mole nonsense. Up your game and bring it - I'll be here. Otherwise don't waste my time.

    Peace.

    In fact, if you come with your opinions or that of your homeboy, Spencer, or even your take (LOL!) on direct hadith or Qur'an quotes - I will simply respond with a DWMT (not even going to type out "don't waste my time"). I'm giving you a note out of respect for your time so you don't waste it typing out something that I will discard.

    You should debate Robert Spencer in whatever form you propose. If he is not too busy I think he would accept. I used to go to his site every day for a few years but this was a while ago.
    Spencer knows all the Koran and Hadith quotes that back up his arguments so you better be careful. His origins are the Eastern Church. I forget a bit…maybe Greek. His people had first hand experience with Muslim wars and oppression via the murderous Ottoman Empire.

    You can sling all the peaceful ecumenical verses you like but lets not forget that the latter Koran war verses from Medina abrogate the “nice” Meccan ones where Muhammad was a flop. So he made Hegira like you made Hegira. The doctrine of conquest via Hegira is why a million Muslims “the emigrants” Al-Muhajiroun (Arabic: المهاجرون ‎‎; The Emigrants) jammed into infidel Germany last year under idiot Merkel who must be your heroine.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Not going to waste my time with Spencer...

    Spencer knows all the Koran and Hadith quotes that back up his arguments so you better be careful.
     
    Yet doesn't know Arabic...sigh...

    What part of "bring proof from our scholars" do you not understand. If he wants to debate at the Qur'an and hadith level, he can take it up with Daesh. They also think they are qualified to go straight to the Qur'amn and hadith. Problem is there wouldn't be much of a debate since they agree on so much.

    His people had first hand experience with Muslim wars and oppression via the murderous Ottoman Empire.
     
    So he has a chip on his shoulder against Turks and made a life mission out of it.

    lets not forget that the latter Koran war verses from Medina abrogate the “nice” Meccan ones
     
    Let's not forget that is only according to some scholars, whom Spencer references often while ignoring all the other authorities (like Imams Razi [ra], Zamakhshari [ra], Suyuti [ra], Baydawi [ra], etc.):
    http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2010/11/06/jihad-abrogation-in-the-quran-the-verse-of-the-sword/

    DWMT.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • We are not perennialist SJWs – you want Unitarian Church campfires – join them.

    Muslims don’t sing kumbayah.

    Say it isn’t so, Talha.

    Kum ba yah (“Come by Here”) is a spiritual song first recorded in the 1920s. It became a standard campfire song in Scouting and summer camps and enjoyed broader popularity during the folk revival of the 1950s and 1960s.

    The song was originally a simple appeal to God to come and help those in need.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    You have my deep respect if you got through that long post. I hope it explains why someone like me doesn't take that nonsense seriously.

    Thanks for the historical reference - I did not know this.

    The song was originally a simple appeal to God to come and help those in need.
     
    That's what tahajjud prayer is for - ;)

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Clyde
    Most religions observe the Golden Rule or something close to it. Islam does does not. Many people just on their own, they may be atheists, but they practice the Golden Rule even if imperfectly.

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/05/islam-and-the-golden-rule
    There are many other verses that show the brotherhood in Islam is not universal. The non believers have no rights and should not be treated in the same way that Muslims are to be treated. The entire Quran is a breach of the Golden Rule.

    According to Muslims it is not the Golden Rule that defines the good and bad, it is Muhammad who does it. They believe that what is good for Islam is the highest virtue and what is bad for Islam is the ultimate evil. This is the definition of good and evil in Islam. This is the ethos of all cults. (very brief excerpts)

    I was thinking about ignoring this one, but thought I’d ‘splain something before I start ignoring…

    the brotherhood in Islam is not universal

    Partially correct. There are two brotherhoods; 1) the general one of Bani Adam (Children of Adam) of which all of us are members which has rights and obligations and 2) the specific one of the Ummah. The Ummah has its own rights and obligations of brotherhood. It is a commitment, not lip service; I can be friends, co-workers or co-citizens with others just fine but they are not my brother unless they are willing to stand next to me in prayer, face the same qiblah and place their head on the ground. This translates into reality; if a Muslim army faces a non-Muslim army, it is allowed to attack them even if they are retreating (see Qadisiyah) – but against another Muslim army, this is not permitted. ‘Brother’ means something substantial – see the tone in which I was advised in comment #100. We are not perennialist SJWs – you want Unitarian Church campfires – join them.

    Furthermore, I hardly think I need to take lessons from a man who wouldn’t know ‘universal brotherhood’ if it hit him in the face. I’ve seen how you talk about non-Whites (whether or not the majority of them are Christian) and it’s far beyond any kind of objective analysis/criticism of the realities on the ground. So sell your wares elsewhere – I ain’t buying.

    I went to the link and of course the entire discussion on the Golden Rule doesn’t even bring this verse into consideration:
    “God does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes – from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, God loves those who act justly.” (60:8)

    The discussion of which actually doesn’t even matter as I’m about to ‘splain.

    The non believers have no rights and should not be treated in the same way that Muslims are to be treated.

    But first…BS.

    According to Muslims

    I’m glad Mr. Spencer, some guy named Ali Sina and you have an inflated opinion of yourselves. If you feel you can define what ‘Islam says’ or what ‘Muslims say’ then that is all well and good and anybody reading has a right to believe you.

    Now if you want to convince a Muslim, good luck. You don’t get to define the parameters, we do – it’s our religion. Just as I don’t get to define what constitutes authority in Catholicism. You want to tinker around with the definitions of a religion, come up with one yourself. A discussion between you, Spencer and Ali Sina throwing around hadith and Qur’an verses counts for exactly zero because neither of you is qualified to formulate an opinion on the subject based on source texts (inasmuch as my plumber can have an opinion on gravitational waves). Neither am I, in fact. In none of that entire discussion do I see a reference to a single legitimate Islamic scholar who holds the same opinion as your conclusions.

    Going further, if one wants to claim ‘Islam says’ anything, the burden of proof on them is to show a consistent consensus ruling across all four existing schools of Sunni Orthodoxy (a higher bar would be to throw in the Ibadis and the Shiahs – but Sunnis constitute a massive super-majority [especially since Zaydi Shiahs are practically Sunni] so I’m willing to set the bar lower). So for instance a person can state; Islam says that a healthy adult must fast during daylight hours in the month of Ramadan or that a Muslim female is prohibited from marrying a non-Muslim male – both those have unanimity across the board without dissent. Otherwise one can certainly point out that the Shafi’i school only allows blood money to be paid in the case that a Muslim murders a non-Muslim however the Hanafi school (which has the largest following historically and currently) states blood-for-blood and that the Muslim can be put to death at the behest of the non-Muslim’s relatives. In this case, one can truthfully only state that this is the Shafi’i or Hanafi opinion on the matter. Furthermore, an appeal to an obscure ruling in an extinct school (like those of Imam Awzai [ra], Layth [ra], Tabari [ra], etc.) is simply an act of desperation because those opinions exist only in books and nobody practices them – otherwise things like backbiting would break one’s fast.

    So what do Hanafi scholars (the school I and the majority of Muslims follow) say about the “non believers have no rights” statement? Imam Ibn Humam (ra) who wrote the commentary Fath ul-Qadeer (on Imam Marghinani’s original work, the Hidaya [which I am currently studying under my teacher]) wrote about simply the honor of a non-Muslim dhimmi citizen; backbiting him is unlawful just as backbiting a Muslim is unlawful. Imam ibn Abidin (ra) adopts this opinion in his super-commentary known as Radd al- Muhtar, explaining that oppression against a non-Muslim citizen is worse, saying that it is “because with the contractual dhimma pact, everything obligatory towards [one of] us is obligatory towards him, so if backbiting a Muslim is impermissible then backbiting him is [also] impermissible. In fact, they [our prior scholars] said that oppression against a non-Muslim citizen is worse.” He goes on to state that a Muslim can be punished by the authorities for simply denigrating a dhimmi with words like “O, Kafir (unbeliever)!” or “O, Enemy of God!”

    Who was Imam Ibn Abidin (ra)? A Levantine Ottoman Hanafi scholar (18/19th century) of such vast knowledge that when he came on the scene, it’s as if all the other Hanafis sat down and shut up to listen. His book, Radd ul-Muhtar, is the one students training to be Hanafi muftis have to master, from the East to the West:

    http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2012/11/20/hanafi-texts-the-difference-between-primers-and-reference-works-in-islamic-law/

    http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=3408

    So, if you want someone like me to believe you (or pay attention) when you say ‘Islam says’ something, bring proof from our scholars, specifically a reference for a consensus ruling or opinion on an issue. Otherwise, if you want to challenge Imam Ibn Abidin’s (ra) opinion; convert, study Arabic morphology and grammar and rhetoric, logic, hadith sciences, sciences of Qur’anic exegesis, the hadith corpus, and then the fatwa reference works of Imams Tahawi (ra), al-Aini (ra), Jassas (ra), etc. get a certification from Azhar, Sarhanpur or Nadwa tul-Ulama, etc. or some other institute of Hanafi jurisprudence and then come back after 15/20 years as Mufti Clyde and we’ll talk.

    At this point, I neither have the time nor the inclination to deal with this Mickey Mouse whack-a-mole nonsense. Up your game and bring it – I’ll be here. Otherwise don’t waste my time.

    Peace.

    In fact, if you come with your opinions or that of your homeboy, Spencer, or even your take (LOL!) on direct hadith or Qur’an quotes – I will simply respond with a DWMT (not even going to type out “don’t waste my time”). I’m giving you a note out of respect for your time so you don’t waste it typing out something that I will discard.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Clyde
    You should debate Robert Spencer in whatever form you propose. If he is not too busy I think he would accept. I used to go to his site every day for a few years but this was a while ago.
    Spencer knows all the Koran and Hadith quotes that back up his arguments so you better be careful. His origins are the Eastern Church. I forget a bit...maybe Greek. His people had first hand experience with Muslim wars and oppression via the murderous Ottoman Empire.

    You can sling all the peaceful ecumenical verses you like but lets not forget that the latter Koran war verses from Medina abrogate the "nice" Meccan ones where Muhammad was a flop. So he made Hegira like you made Hegira. The doctrine of conquest via Hegira is why a million Muslims "the emigrants" Al-Muhajiroun (Arabic: المهاجرون ‎‎; The Emigrants) jammed into infidel Germany last year under idiot Merkel who must be your heroine.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    Like I've said before, I don't have much of a dog in that fight, but the behavior of Israel and its backers seems to be completely anathematic to a peaceful solution. Iran has its problems, but by and large it's a decent Muslim country where Armenian and Assyrian Christians and even the small Jewish community live unmolested. By contrast, Israel/America's Salafist allies demand utter subjugation of non-Muslims, women wearing tents, and so forth. Israeli officials have actually said that the elimination of Daesh would be against their interests, which are apparently perpetual war.

    Hey Marcus,

    Israeli officials have actually said that the elimination of Daesh would be against their interests

    Bro, can you cite a reference for this? I’d love to have it on file. I have a quote regarding this position from some Israeli think-tank but nothing from the equivalent of an actual bonafide government source – that would be gold!

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20160623/1041776747/israel-prefers-isis-to-iran.html
    "While Israel has stated in the past that it prefers Daesh, also known as ISIS/Islamic State, over the Syrian government under Assad, Israeli military intelligence chief Major General Herzi Halevy has taken that assertion further, telling the Herzliya Conference this week that Israel does not, in fact, want to see the fundamentalist group defeated."

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/israeli-intelligence-chief-not-want-isis-defeat-syria/
    "Israeli Intelligence chief: We do not want ISIS defeat in Syria"
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Avery
    {Of course, all of that is only a feint to conceal the fact that what Iranians are really intent on doing is building a missile so that the ayatollahs can do a Dr. Strangelove into New York City by way of Tel Aviv.}

    Of course, all this is only the fertile imagination of delusional Israelis and Israel-firsters, desperately attempting to have USAF do their dirty deed for the insane Israeli leadership bent on mass-murdering innocent Iranian civilians.

    Iran will never attack or attempt to attack Israel, much less US.
    Reason is very simple: it will be obliterated by a massive nuclear retaliation.

    What is not a feint and what is a fact is that Israeli agents have murdered Iranian civilian nuclear professors in Iran. For no other reason than that they are nuclear physicists.

    Like I’ve said before, I don’t have much of a dog in that fight, but the behavior of Israel and its backers seems to be completely anathematic to a peaceful solution. Iran has its problems, but by and large it’s a decent Muslim country where Armenian and Assyrian Christians and even the small Jewish community live unmolested. By contrast, Israel/America’s Salafist allies demand utter subjugation of non-Muslims, women wearing tents, and so forth. Israeli officials have actually said that the elimination of Daesh would be against their interests, which are apparently perpetual war.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Israeli officials have actually said that the elimination of Daesh would be against their interests
     
    Bro, can you cite a reference for this? I'd love to have it on file. I have a quote regarding this position from some Israeli think-tank but nothing from the equivalent of an actual bonafide government source - that would be gold!

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Avery
    Yo, Talha:

    Now that you mention it, I now vaguely remember [SolontoCroesus] being an admirer of the ancient, rich Persian civilization and Zoroastrianism. (I think it's the same poster)

    My mistake: I jumped the gun.
    Profound regrets for hurt feelings, if any.

    No problem, the give away for me was the reference to Dr, Strangelove – ah, what a classic!

    Peace.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Yo Avery,

    Me thinks he was joking!

    Peace.

    Yo, Talha:

    Now that you mention it, I now vaguely remember [SolontoCroesus] being an admirer of the ancient, rich Persian civilization and Zoroastrianism. (I think it’s the same poster)

    My mistake: I jumped the gun.
    Profound regrets for hurt feelings, if any.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    No problem, the give away for me was the reference to Dr, Strangelove - ah, what a classic!

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Avery
    {Of course, all of that is only a feint to conceal the fact that what Iranians are really intent on doing is building a missile so that the ayatollahs can do a Dr. Strangelove into New York City by way of Tel Aviv.}

    Of course, all this is only the fertile imagination of delusional Israelis and Israel-firsters, desperately attempting to have USAF do their dirty deed for the insane Israeli leadership bent on mass-murdering innocent Iranian civilians.

    Iran will never attack or attempt to attack Israel, much less US.
    Reason is very simple: it will be obliterated by a massive nuclear retaliation.

    What is not a feint and what is a fact is that Israeli agents have murdered Iranian civilian nuclear professors in Iran. For no other reason than that they are nuclear physicists.

    Yo Avery,

    Me thinks he was joking!

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    Yo, Talha:

    Now that you mention it, I now vaguely remember [SolontoCroesus] being an admirer of the ancient, rich Persian civilization and Zoroastrianism. (I think it's the same poster)

    My mistake: I jumped the gun.
    Profound regrets for hurt feelings, if any.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Yes indeed, because Hindutva websites are the bastion of intellectual integrity and objective reasoning.

    I'm going to quit now before my head starts hurting...I've stated all I really want to on this matter and anyone can read through both of our posts and see what appeals to their intellect.

    And I'd say your 85% number sounds right - almost all of my teachers (praxis and spirituality) are from native stock.

    Thanks for keeping it clean.

    Peace.

    Most religions observe the Golden Rule or something close to it. Islam does does not. Many people just on their own, they may be atheists, but they practice the Golden Rule even if imperfectly.

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/05/islam-and-the-golden-rule

    There are many other verses that show the brotherhood in Islam is not universal. The non believers have no rights and should not be treated in the same way that Muslims are to be treated. The entire Quran is a breach of the Golden Rule.

    According to Muslims it is not the Golden Rule that defines the good and bad, it is Muhammad who does it. They believe that what is good for Islam is the highest virtue and what is bad for Islam is the ultimate evil. This is the definition of good and evil in Islam. This is the ethos of all cults. (very brief excerpts)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    I was thinking about ignoring this one, but thought I'd 'splain something before I start ignoring...

    the brotherhood in Islam is not universal
     
    Partially correct. There are two brotherhoods; 1) the general one of Bani Adam (Children of Adam) of which all of us are members which has rights and obligations and 2) the specific one of the Ummah. The Ummah has its own rights and obligations of brotherhood. It is a commitment, not lip service; I can be friends, co-workers or co-citizens with others just fine but they are not my brother unless they are willing to stand next to me in prayer, face the same qiblah and place their head on the ground. This translates into reality; if a Muslim army faces a non-Muslim army, it is allowed to attack them even if they are retreating (see Qadisiyah) - but against another Muslim army, this is not permitted. 'Brother' means something substantial - see the tone in which I was advised in comment #100. We are not perennialist SJWs - you want Unitarian Church campfires - join them.

    Furthermore, I hardly think I need to take lessons from a man who wouldn't know 'universal brotherhood' if it hit him in the face. I've seen how you talk about non-Whites (whether or not the majority of them are Christian) and it's far beyond any kind of objective analysis/criticism of the realities on the ground. So sell your wares elsewhere - I ain't buying.

    I went to the link and of course the entire discussion on the Golden Rule doesn't even bring this verse into consideration:
    "God does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, God loves those who act justly." (60:8)

    The discussion of which actually doesn't even matter as I'm about to 'splain.

    The non believers have no rights and should not be treated in the same way that Muslims are to be treated.
     
    But first...BS.

    According to Muslims
     
    I'm glad Mr. Spencer, some guy named Ali Sina and you have an inflated opinion of yourselves. If you feel you can define what 'Islam says' or what 'Muslims say' then that is all well and good and anybody reading has a right to believe you.

    Now if you want to convince a Muslim, good luck. You don't get to define the parameters, we do - it's our religion. Just as I don't get to define what constitutes authority in Catholicism. You want to tinker around with the definitions of a religion, come up with one yourself. A discussion between you, Spencer and Ali Sina throwing around hadith and Qur'an verses counts for exactly zero because neither of you is qualified to formulate an opinion on the subject based on source texts (inasmuch as my plumber can have an opinion on gravitational waves). Neither am I, in fact. In none of that entire discussion do I see a reference to a single legitimate Islamic scholar who holds the same opinion as your conclusions.

    Going further, if one wants to claim 'Islam says' anything, the burden of proof on them is to show a consistent consensus ruling across all four existing schools of Sunni Orthodoxy (a higher bar would be to throw in the Ibadis and the Shiahs - but Sunnis constitute a massive super-majority [especially since Zaydi Shiahs are practically Sunni] so I'm willing to set the bar lower). So for instance a person can state; Islam says that a healthy adult must fast during daylight hours in the month of Ramadan or that a Muslim female is prohibited from marrying a non-Muslim male - both those have unanimity across the board without dissent. Otherwise one can certainly point out that the Shafi'i school only allows blood money to be paid in the case that a Muslim murders a non-Muslim however the Hanafi school (which has the largest following historically and currently) states blood-for-blood and that the Muslim can be put to death at the behest of the non-Muslim's relatives. In this case, one can truthfully only state that this is the Shafi'i or Hanafi opinion on the matter. Furthermore, an appeal to an obscure ruling in an extinct school (like those of Imam Awzai [ra], Layth [ra], Tabari [ra], etc.) is simply an act of desperation because those opinions exist only in books and nobody practices them - otherwise things like backbiting would break one's fast.

    So what do Hanafi scholars (the school I and the majority of Muslims follow) say about the "non believers have no rights" statement? Imam Ibn Humam (ra) who wrote the commentary Fath ul-Qadeer (on Imam Marghinani's original work, the Hidaya [which I am currently studying under my teacher]) wrote about simply the honor of a non-Muslim dhimmi citizen; backbiting him is unlawful just as backbiting a Muslim is unlawful. Imam ibn Abidin (ra) adopts this opinion in his super-commentary known as Radd al- Muhtar, explaining that oppression against a non-Muslim citizen is worse, saying that it is “because with the contractual dhimma pact, everything obligatory towards [one of] us is obligatory towards him, so if backbiting a Muslim is impermissible then backbiting him is [also] impermissible. In fact, they [our prior scholars] said that oppression against a non-Muslim citizen is worse.” He goes on to state that a Muslim can be punished by the authorities for simply denigrating a dhimmi with words like "O, Kafir (unbeliever)!" or "O, Enemy of God!"

    Who was Imam Ibn Abidin (ra)? A Levantine Ottoman Hanafi scholar (18/19th century) of such vast knowledge that when he came on the scene, it's as if all the other Hanafis sat down and shut up to listen. His book, Radd ul-Muhtar, is the one students training to be Hanafi muftis have to master, from the East to the West:
    http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2012/11/20/hanafi-texts-the-difference-between-primers-and-reference-works-in-islamic-law/
    http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=3408

    So, if you want someone like me to believe you (or pay attention) when you say 'Islam says' something, bring proof from our scholars, specifically a reference for a consensus ruling or opinion on an issue. Otherwise, if you want to challenge Imam Ibn Abidin's (ra) opinion; convert, study Arabic morphology and grammar and rhetoric, logic, hadith sciences, sciences of Qur'anic exegesis, the hadith corpus, and then the fatwa reference works of Imams Tahawi (ra), al-Aini (ra), Jassas (ra), etc. get a certification from Azhar, Sarhanpur or Nadwa tul-Ulama, etc. or some other institute of Hanafi jurisprudence and then come back after 15/20 years as Mufti Clyde and we'll talk.

    At this point, I neither have the time nor the inclination to deal with this Mickey Mouse whack-a-mole nonsense. Up your game and bring it - I'll be here. Otherwise don't waste my time.

    Peace.

    In fact, if you come with your opinions or that of your homeboy, Spencer, or even your take (LOL!) on direct hadith or Qur'an quotes - I will simply respond with a DWMT (not even going to type out "don't waste my time"). I'm giving you a note out of respect for your time so you don't waste it typing out something that I will discard.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    Talha

    Natanz, in Iran, is a Turkic village, built around an ancient Turkic mosque whose architecture is distinct from the domes of other mosques -- less a rounded dome and more cone-shaped.

    Natanz is, of course, the site of one of Iran's nuclear facilities. It functions as a power generator for the desert region that extends for miles and miles in every direction. Over 30 years ago Iranians began planting the desert, with pine trees in areas to be developed for residential and commercial purposes, and with bushes along the extensive roadways, to keep the desert sands from blowing over the roads.
    Pylons carry power lines as far as the eye can see to deliver electricity to power the planned habitations. They are supplemented with hundreds, maybe thousands of windmills clustered deeper in the desert. Among other things, the nuclear plant supplies power to pump water to grow the trees and bushes.

    Of course, all of that is only a feint to conceal the fact that what Iranians are really intent on doing is building a missile so that the ayatollahs can do a Dr. Strangelove into New York City by way of Tel Aviv.

    {Of course, all of that is only a feint to conceal the fact that what Iranians are really intent on doing is building a missile so that the ayatollahs can do a Dr. Strangelove into New York City by way of Tel Aviv.}

    Of course, all this is only the fertile imagination of delusional Israelis and Israel-firsters, desperately attempting to have USAF do their dirty deed for the insane Israeli leadership bent on mass-murdering innocent Iranian civilians.

    Iran will never attack or attempt to attack Israel, much less US.
    Reason is very simple: it will be obliterated by a massive nuclear retaliation.

    What is not a feint and what is a fact is that Israeli agents have murdered Iranian civilian nuclear professors in Iran. For no other reason than that they are nuclear physicists.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Yo Avery,

    Me thinks he was joking!

    Peace.
    , @Marcus
    Like I've said before, I don't have much of a dog in that fight, but the behavior of Israel and its backers seems to be completely anathematic to a peaceful solution. Iran has its problems, but by and large it's a decent Muslim country where Armenian and Assyrian Christians and even the small Jewish community live unmolested. By contrast, Israel/America's Salafist allies demand utter subjugation of non-Muslims, women wearing tents, and so forth. Israeli officials have actually said that the elimination of Daesh would be against their interests, which are apparently perpetual war.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    That is interesting, from what I've read the relations between Muslims and the minority populations there have been largely placid with some terrifying exceptions (East Timor, W Papua New Guinea, anti-Chinese massacres in the 1960s). Suharto was consider a highly important US ally, so it was mostly no-harm no-foul

    Yeah, that has mostly political implications (he religious side is ancillary) especially with the various islands. The central government will crack down on you and send in the brutal Kopassus divisions if you try to secede. The Acehnese, who are majority Muslim, found out that the government could care less if your independence movement is headed by Muslims:

    http://www.war-memorial.net/Indonesia-Gvt-vs-Aceh-Liberation-movement–3.230

    http://www.stabilityjournal.org/articles/10.5334/sta.ah/

    Thank God it’s over.

    Peace.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    I wouldn't recommend PN Oak or NS Rajaram, but Arun Shourie, Koenraad van Elst, and Sita Ram Goel, etc. are pretty good. The problem seems to be reconciling the still strong anti-Western/rationalist sentiment in India (we forget that Pakistan was viewed as America's natural ally instead of India for ideological as well as geopolitical reasons) with the fact that Hindu nationalism has had to heavily adopt Western styles and tactics.

    The keynote lecture was given by the octogenarian historian Prof. Romila Thapar. She looked quite good for her age, elegant and dignified in her sari. She thus exemplified Sita Ram Goel’s observation that secularists often display a sincere affection for traditional Hindu culture, all the more striking when supposed Hindutva militants go all out for Westernization, from the British-style RSS uniform and brass bands to the present-day BJP-facilitated guzzling down of American economic mores and cultural mannerisms. The secularists of the older generation are culturally still very Indian, and have a traditional pride presenting an unassuming alternative identity to the present idealization of Western examples. (I am reminded of her colleague Prof. Irfan Habib’s proud old-Marxist rejection of US patronage, contrasting to the complete conceptual as well as outwardly Americanization of the younger generation of secularists and Ambedkarites.)
     
    http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2016/09/max-webers-afterglow.html

    Hey Marcus,

    Read some of those guys – not impressed by Koenraad van Elst – for sure. Here’s the book he wrote that all the Hindutva sites reference:

    https://www.amazon.com/Negationism-India-Concealing-Record-Islam/dp/8185990018/ref=oosr

    Couldn’t get a publisher other than the ‘Voice of India’, eh? I agree that there are a lot of people trying to fudge the brutal record of the invasions of Ghazni and rule of certain Mughals – I’m not like that, you know this already – I’ll call a spade a spade. But I don’t buy the nonsense that it was this wholly murderous enterprise (especially since many Hindu kingdoms lined up with them as vassals to do the plundering or even helped in their defense as Muslim kingdoms joined the British) as people who want to completely push the narrative in the other direction. It’s seriously juvenile and the wild numbers have been thoroughly contested by historians like the late Simon Digby:
    “A former fellow of Wolfson College, Oxford, and former assistant keeper in the Department of Eastern Art, Ashmolean Museum, Digby was the foremost British scholar of pre-Mughal India, who wrote several foundational essays on Indo-Persian Sufism and contributed to The Cambridge Economic History of India…”

    http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/122455

    Hindu nationalism

    May be a complete joke as the ‘European Union’ is turning out to be. Is there reasonably a Hindu national identity in the first place – in a land where many in the South communicate with many in the North via the medium of English? Or is this a new-found identity crisis after independence and in the era of the pre-eminence of the nation state (a European institution)? I will say, Elst’s observations about Hindutva nationalists is very keen. I have likewise seen Muslim scholars criticize Muslim extremists for basically operating like anarchist militants and communist guerrillas more than anything else.

    Well, they’ll have to figure it out themselves.

    Peace.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Just as a side note, most of the Muslims in this area are Shafi'i like the Malays and Indonesians because their Islam came directly from coastal traders from places like Yemen and other Arabian ports.

    "In the Muslim communities of the commercial cnters of the Indian Ocean, the Shaf'i madhhab was of particular prominence; adherence to a common school of law was an important factor in commercial dealings as it could be relevant in the adjudication of disputes. Ibn Battuta, always glad to display his own chooling in Shafi'i jurisprudence, noted its prevalence among Malabar's Muslims as well as Samudra's ruling house."

    Islamic Connections: Muslim Societies in South and Southeast Asia

    That is interesting, from what I’ve read the relations between Muslims and the minority populations there have been largely placid with some terrifying exceptions (East Timor, W Papua New Guinea, anti-Chinese massacres in the 1960s). Suharto was consider a highly important US ally, so it was mostly no-harm no-foul

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Yeah, that has mostly political implications (he religious side is ancillary) especially with the various islands. The central government will crack down on you and send in the brutal Kopassus divisions if you try to secede. The Acehnese, who are majority Muslim, found out that the government could care less if your independence movement is headed by Muslims:

    http://www.war-memorial.net/Indonesia-Gvt-vs-Aceh-Liberation-movement--3.230
    http://www.stabilityjournal.org/articles/10.5334/sta.ah/

    Thank God it's over.

    Peace.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Yes indeed, because Hindutva websites are the bastion of intellectual integrity and objective reasoning.

    I'm going to quit now before my head starts hurting...I've stated all I really want to on this matter and anyone can read through both of our posts and see what appeals to their intellect.

    And I'd say your 85% number sounds right - almost all of my teachers (praxis and spirituality) are from native stock.

    Thanks for keeping it clean.

    Peace.

    I wouldn’t recommend PN Oak or NS Rajaram, but Arun Shourie, Koenraad van Elst, and Sita Ram Goel, etc. are pretty good. The problem seems to be reconciling the still strong anti-Western/rationalist sentiment in India (we forget that Pakistan was viewed as America’s natural ally instead of India for ideological as well as geopolitical reasons) with the fact that Hindu nationalism has had to heavily adopt Western styles and tactics.

    The keynote lecture was given by the octogenarian historian Prof. Romila Thapar. She looked quite good for her age, elegant and dignified in her sari. She thus exemplified Sita Ram Goel’s observation that secularists often display a sincere affection for traditional Hindu culture, all the more striking when supposed Hindutva militants go all out for Westernization, from the British-style RSS uniform and brass bands to the present-day BJP-facilitated guzzling down of American economic mores and cultural mannerisms. The secularists of the older generation are culturally still very Indian, and have a traditional pride presenting an unassuming alternative identity to the present idealization of Western examples. (I am reminded of her colleague Prof. Irfan Habib’s proud old-Marxist rejection of US patronage, contrasting to the complete conceptual as well as outwardly Americanization of the younger generation of secularists and Ambedkarites.)

    http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2016/09/max-webers-afterglow.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Read some of those guys - not impressed by Koenraad van Elst - for sure. Here's the book he wrote that all the Hindutva sites reference:
    https://www.amazon.com/Negationism-India-Concealing-Record-Islam/dp/8185990018/ref=oosr

    Couldn't get a publisher other than the 'Voice of India', eh? I agree that there are a lot of people trying to fudge the brutal record of the invasions of Ghazni and rule of certain Mughals - I'm not like that, you know this already - I'll call a spade a spade. But I don't buy the nonsense that it was this wholly murderous enterprise (especially since many Hindu kingdoms lined up with them as vassals to do the plundering or even helped in their defense as Muslim kingdoms joined the British) as people who want to completely push the narrative in the other direction. It's seriously juvenile and the wild numbers have been thoroughly contested by historians like the late Simon Digby:
    "A former fellow of Wolfson College, Oxford, and former assistant keeper in the Department of Eastern Art, Ashmolean Museum, Digby was the foremost British scholar of pre-Mughal India, who wrote several foundational essays on Indo-Persian Sufism and contributed to The Cambridge Economic History of India..."
    http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/122455

    Hindu nationalism
     
    May be a complete joke as the 'European Union' is turning out to be. Is there reasonably a Hindu national identity in the first place - in a land where many in the South communicate with many in the North via the medium of English? Or is this a new-found identity crisis after independence and in the era of the pre-eminence of the nation state (a European institution)? I will say, Elst's observations about Hindutva nationalists is very keen. I have likewise seen Muslim scholars criticize Muslim extremists for basically operating like anarchist militants and communist guerrillas more than anything else.

    Well, they'll have to figure it out themselves.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    I agree, though I've never been into stylized human caricatures much - but that's just a personal taste. That sunburst pattern on that page was phenomenal though and I'm a big fan of really well done geometric patterns and calligraphy (which they also excelled in).

    It is interesting, I was inspired by this thread to ask an Indian (Hindu - but agnostic) co-worker about what he honestly thought about the Mughals. He actually had nothing but praise for them. Now this is interesting because he comes from the southern part of India where they never reached! He says the Muslim population there is 25% or so with a near 20% Christian and everyone gets along pretty well. He said they (Venad Dynasty) were the empire in that neck of the woods and they were the ones doing all the conquering along the coast and what not (until the Brits came along of course). For him the Mughal empire was pretty well put together and it almost seems like a Dane may have admired Imperial Rome in an abstract sense for its achievements, but never having had to live under them.

    And it's funny about art in a way, I kind of miss how colorful the past was, with each culture and locality having such distinction - almost like the various plumes in an aviary. In fact, some of the stuff you see in museums concerning what the various sultans wore is very ornate; embroidered, richly colored, etc. Seems almost 'fruity' to our tastes - but then again, they had more concubines than we could reasonably imagine (and I believe the Ottoman sultans were taught archery, sword and lance and riding horseback) so I don't think they had to prove their masculinity to anyone.

    Peace.

    Just as a side note, most of the Muslims in this area are Shafi’i like the Malays and Indonesians because their Islam came directly from coastal traders from places like Yemen and other Arabian ports.

    “In the Muslim communities of the commercial cnters of the Indian Ocean, the Shaf’i madhhab was of particular prominence; adherence to a common school of law was an important factor in commercial dealings as it could be relevant in the adjudication of disputes. Ibn Battuta, always glad to display his own chooling in Shafi’i jurisprudence, noted its prevalence among Malabar’s Muslims as well as Samudra’s ruling house.”

    Islamic Connections: Muslim Societies in South and Southeast Asia

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    That is interesting, from what I've read the relations between Muslims and the minority populations there have been largely placid with some terrifying exceptions (East Timor, W Papua New Guinea, anti-Chinese massacres in the 1960s). Suharto was consider a highly important US ally, so it was mostly no-harm no-foul
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Avery
    {Persian-Turkic world...}

    Commingling 'Turkic' with 'Persian' is an insult to the great, rich, creative, sedentary Persian civilization of 5,000+ years.

    What so-called 'Turkic' world?
    Turks are destructive nomads: everything creative/cultural so-called Turkish/Turkic was stolen and misappropriated from: Persians, Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks,....
    All great, rich, creative, sedentary civilizations.
    Unlike the destructive UygurTürkoğlar invadonomads.

    There is no such thing as 'Turkic world of ......tolerant attitude to imagery....'.
    There is a Turkic world of invasion, destruction, theft, arson, mass-murder, mass rape, theft of children, paedophilia, forcible Islamic conversion, forcible Turkification, theft, arson, destruction, mass murder, and.....Genocide.

    There is your 'Turkic' world.
    Thank you.
    Thank you, very much.

    Talha

    Natanz, in Iran, is a Turkic village, built around an ancient Turkic mosque whose architecture is distinct from the domes of other mosques — less a rounded dome and more cone-shaped.

    Natanz is, of course, the site of one of Iran’s nuclear facilities. It functions as a power generator for the desert region that extends for miles and miles in every direction. Over 30 years ago Iranians began planting the desert, with pine trees in areas to be developed for residential and commercial purposes, and with bushes along the extensive roadways, to keep the desert sands from blowing over the roads.
    Pylons carry power lines as far as the eye can see to deliver electricity to power the planned habitations. They are supplemented with hundreds, maybe thousands of windmills clustered deeper in the desert. Among other things, the nuclear plant supplies power to pump water to grow the trees and bushes.

    Of course, all of that is only a feint to conceal the fact that what Iranians are really intent on doing is building a missile so that the ayatollahs can do a Dr. Strangelove into New York City by way of Tel Aviv.

    Read More
    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @Avery
    {Of course, all of that is only a feint to conceal the fact that what Iranians are really intent on doing is building a missile so that the ayatollahs can do a Dr. Strangelove into New York City by way of Tel Aviv.}

    Of course, all this is only the fertile imagination of delusional Israelis and Israel-firsters, desperately attempting to have USAF do their dirty deed for the insane Israeli leadership bent on mass-murdering innocent Iranian civilians.

    Iran will never attack or attempt to attack Israel, much less US.
    Reason is very simple: it will be obliterated by a massive nuclear retaliation.

    What is not a feint and what is a fact is that Israeli agents have murdered Iranian civilian nuclear professors in Iran. For no other reason than that they are nuclear physicists.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Clyde
    Richard Eaton presents the sunny side of the Islamic sword of conversion. I don't believe him and can find people who don't go along with this. Jizya also forces conversions.

    But anyway with my original question. Converted peacefully (allegedly no compulsion in Islam...lol) or via the sword, with all the Muslims in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh. What percentage have Hindu/other ancestry? Must be at least 85%.

    Yes indeed, because Hindutva websites are the bastion of intellectual integrity and objective reasoning.

    I’m going to quit now before my head starts hurting…I’ve stated all I really want to on this matter and anyone can read through both of our posts and see what appeals to their intellect.

    And I’d say your 85% number sounds right – almost all of my teachers (praxis and spirituality) are from native stock.

    Thanks for keeping it clean.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    I wouldn't recommend PN Oak or NS Rajaram, but Arun Shourie, Koenraad van Elst, and Sita Ram Goel, etc. are pretty good. The problem seems to be reconciling the still strong anti-Western/rationalist sentiment in India (we forget that Pakistan was viewed as America's natural ally instead of India for ideological as well as geopolitical reasons) with the fact that Hindu nationalism has had to heavily adopt Western styles and tactics.

    The keynote lecture was given by the octogenarian historian Prof. Romila Thapar. She looked quite good for her age, elegant and dignified in her sari. She thus exemplified Sita Ram Goel’s observation that secularists often display a sincere affection for traditional Hindu culture, all the more striking when supposed Hindutva militants go all out for Westernization, from the British-style RSS uniform and brass bands to the present-day BJP-facilitated guzzling down of American economic mores and cultural mannerisms. The secularists of the older generation are culturally still very Indian, and have a traditional pride presenting an unassuming alternative identity to the present idealization of Western examples. (I am reminded of her colleague Prof. Irfan Habib’s proud old-Marxist rejection of US patronage, contrasting to the complete conceptual as well as outwardly Americanization of the younger generation of secularists and Ambedkarites.)
     
    http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2016/09/max-webers-afterglow.html
    , @Clyde
    Most religions observe the Golden Rule or something close to it. Islam does does not. Many people just on their own, they may be atheists, but they practice the Golden Rule even if imperfectly.

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/05/islam-and-the-golden-rule
    There are many other verses that show the brotherhood in Islam is not universal. The non believers have no rights and should not be treated in the same way that Muslims are to be treated. The entire Quran is a breach of the Golden Rule.

    According to Muslims it is not the Golden Rule that defines the good and bad, it is Muhammad who does it. They believe that what is good for Islam is the highest virtue and what is bad for Islam is the ultimate evil. This is the definition of good and evil in Islam. This is the ethos of all cults. (very brief excerpts)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    Regarding visual arts, I should've mentioned the Persianate/South Asian style, which is definitely serene and beautiful in its own way. The Persian-Turkic world seemed to have more tolerant attitude to imagery at times
    http://breakcomcs.blogspot.com/2011/03/mughal-paintings-particular-style-of.html

    Hey Marcus,

    I agree, though I’ve never been into stylized human caricatures much – but that’s just a personal taste. That sunburst pattern on that page was phenomenal though and I’m a big fan of really well done geometric patterns and calligraphy (which they also excelled in).

    It is interesting, I was inspired by this thread to ask an Indian (Hindu – but agnostic) co-worker about what he honestly thought about the Mughals. He actually had nothing but praise for them. Now this is interesting because he comes from the southern part of India where they never reached! He says the Muslim population there is 25% or so with a near 20% Christian and everyone gets along pretty well. He said they (Venad Dynasty) were the empire in that neck of the woods and they were the ones doing all the conquering along the coast and what not (until the Brits came along of course). For him the Mughal empire was pretty well put together and it almost seems like a Dane may have admired Imperial Rome in an abstract sense for its achievements, but never having had to live under them.

    And it’s funny about art in a way, I kind of miss how colorful the past was, with each culture and locality having such distinction – almost like the various plumes in an aviary. In fact, some of the stuff you see in museums concerning what the various sultans wore is very ornate; embroidered, richly colored, etc. Seems almost ‘fruity’ to our tastes – but then again, they had more concubines than we could reasonably imagine (and I believe the Ottoman sultans were taught archery, sword and lance and riding horseback) so I don’t think they had to prove their masculinity to anyone.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Just as a side note, most of the Muslims in this area are Shafi'i like the Malays and Indonesians because their Islam came directly from coastal traders from places like Yemen and other Arabian ports.

    "In the Muslim communities of the commercial cnters of the Indian Ocean, the Shaf'i madhhab was of particular prominence; adherence to a common school of law was an important factor in commercial dealings as it could be relevant in the adjudication of disputes. Ibn Battuta, always glad to display his own chooling in Shafi'i jurisprudence, noted its prevalence among Malabar's Muslims as well as Samudra's ruling house."

    Islamic Connections: Muslim Societies in South and Southeast Asia
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    Regarding visual arts, I should've mentioned the Persianate/South Asian style, which is definitely serene and beautiful in its own way. The Persian-Turkic world seemed to have more tolerant attitude to imagery at times
    http://breakcomcs.blogspot.com/2011/03/mughal-paintings-particular-style-of.html

    {Persian-Turkic world…}

    Commingling ‘Turkic’ with ‘Persian’ is an insult to the great, rich, creative, sedentary Persian civilization of 5,000+ years.

    What so-called ‘Turkic’ world?
    Turks are destructive nomads: everything creative/cultural so-called Turkish/Turkic was stolen and misappropriated from: Persians, Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks,….
    All great, rich, creative, sedentary civilizations.
    Unlike the destructive UygurTürkoğlar invadonomads.

    There is no such thing as ‘Turkic world of ……tolerant attitude to imagery….’.
    There is a Turkic world of invasion, destruction, theft, arson, mass-murder, mass rape, theft of children, paedophilia, forcible Islamic conversion, forcible Turkification, theft, arson, destruction, mass murder, and…..Genocide.

    There is your ‘Turkic’ world.
    Thank you.
    Thank you, very much.

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Talha

    Natanz, in Iran, is a Turkic village, built around an ancient Turkic mosque whose architecture is distinct from the domes of other mosques -- less a rounded dome and more cone-shaped.

    Natanz is, of course, the site of one of Iran's nuclear facilities. It functions as a power generator for the desert region that extends for miles and miles in every direction. Over 30 years ago Iranians began planting the desert, with pine trees in areas to be developed for residential and commercial purposes, and with bushes along the extensive roadways, to keep the desert sands from blowing over the roads.
    Pylons carry power lines as far as the eye can see to deliver electricity to power the planned habitations. They are supplemented with hundreds, maybe thousands of windmills clustered deeper in the desert. Among other things, the nuclear plant supplies power to pump water to grow the trees and bushes.

    Of course, all of that is only a feint to conceal the fact that what Iranians are really intent on doing is building a missile so that the ayatollahs can do a Dr. Strangelove into New York City by way of Tel Aviv.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    And this, boys and girls, is why we need to bring logic into our educational system as a core subject. Thankfully, I was exposed to it as a CS&E major.

    The Hindus of India look like the Muslims of India/Pakistan so most Muslims there are derived from forcible conversions of Hindus.
     
    The underlying assumption being that a person switches phenotype if they convert willingly versus if they are forced...I'll let everyone think on that one for a bit.

    What is your breakdown on this?
     
    Rough estimate...based on all academic readings on the subject with the following highlights:
    1) Shafi'i school being replaced by the Hanafi in administration
    2) Well documented work of the many Sufi teachers and orders
    3) The Afghan invasions coming very late in the game (mid 18th century) - and they were known for forced conversions
    4) The fact that an overwhelming number of Indians chose to remain Hindu even under complete Mughal domination

    A super-majority (of those that converted) are easily willing converts (now many of these would definitely be those who converted to gain a better social position or be relieved of tax burden). For this generalization, I appeal to this work "The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760" by Richard Eaton - the contents of it are online here (especially his discussion and analysis of the four theories of conversion in India):
    http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft067n99v9&chunk.id=ch05&toc.depth=1&toc.id=ch05&brand=eschol

    "If Islamization had ever been a function of military or political force, one would expect that those areas exposed most intensively and over the longest period to rule by Muslim dynasties—that is, those that were most fully exposed to the “sword”—would today contain the greatest number of Muslims. Yet the opposite is the case, as those regions where the most dramatic Islamization occurred, such as eastern Bengal or western Punjab, lay on the fringes of Indo-Muslim rule, where the “sword” was weakest, and where brute force could have exerted the least influence. In such regions the first accurate census reports put the Muslim population at between 70 and 90 percent of the total, whereas in the heartland of Muslim rule in the upper Gangetic Plain—the domain of the Delhi Fort and the Taj Mahal, where Muslim regimes had ruled the most intensively and for the longest period of time—the Muslim population ranged from only 10 to 15 percent. In other words, in the subcontinent as a whole there is an inverse relationship between the degree of Muslim political penetration and the degree of Islamization. Even within Bengal this principle holds true."

    did not have any Sufi preachers
     
    His companions were the original Sufis, you can try to find any Sufi order that doesn't trace their chain back to one or more of them.

    Peace.

    I'll answer my own question; the Uwaisi order does (kind of) trace itself back to a man who was their contemporary, but never met the Prophet (pbuh) in person.

    Richard Eaton presents the sunny side of the Islamic sword of conversion. I don’t believe him and can find people who don’t go along with this. Jizya also forces conversions.

    But anyway with my original question. Converted peacefully (allegedly no compulsion in Islam…lol) or via the sword, with all the Muslims in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh. What percentage have Hindu/other ancestry? Must be at least 85%.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Yes indeed, because Hindutva websites are the bastion of intellectual integrity and objective reasoning.

    I'm going to quit now before my head starts hurting...I've stated all I really want to on this matter and anyone can read through both of our posts and see what appeals to their intellect.

    And I'd say your 85% number sounds right - almost all of my teachers (praxis and spirituality) are from native stock.

    Thanks for keeping it clean.

    Peace.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha

    most Muslims are ignorant or even contemptuous of their direct ancestors in Egypt or what’s now Pakistan.
     
    I would agree, but is that inherent in Islamic ethos or the politics of the age and the region? For instance I've never heard this kind of talk from Persians or Malays or Javanese who are quite Muslim and quite aware of their pre-Islamic heritage and have preserved aspects their origins. The Persians are quite well known, but taking the Javanese for example, they have preserved numerous Hindu and Buddhist temples and even their unique written language survived until the Dutch introduced Latin script. And yet the original Javanese script is preserved specifically by the ulema:
    "The name kawi in Javanese means ‘language of the poets’ and is an indication that it was a literary language, influenced by Sanskrit. Its use was prohibited under the Japanese occupation of Indonesia during World War II (1942-1945). Today, it is mostly used by religious scholars."
    http://aboutworldlanguages.com/javanese

    Or even their unique martial arts of silat...

    And even their mosques are built in a home-grown style completely unique to their people:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=javanese+mosque&espv=2&biw=1344&bih=791&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdqIee55HPAhUSz2MKHfpzDSUQsAQIKQ

    Contrast that with many of the mosques in India which seem like they were built elsewhere and transported there when compared to native architecture.

    Peace.

    Regarding visual arts, I should’ve mentioned the Persianate/South Asian style, which is definitely serene and beautiful in its own way. The Persian-Turkic world seemed to have more tolerant attitude to imagery at times

    http://breakcomcs.blogspot.com/2011/03/mughal-paintings-particular-style-of.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {Persian-Turkic world...}

    Commingling 'Turkic' with 'Persian' is an insult to the great, rich, creative, sedentary Persian civilization of 5,000+ years.

    What so-called 'Turkic' world?
    Turks are destructive nomads: everything creative/cultural so-called Turkish/Turkic was stolen and misappropriated from: Persians, Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks,....
    All great, rich, creative, sedentary civilizations.
    Unlike the destructive UygurTürkoğlar invadonomads.

    There is no such thing as 'Turkic world of ......tolerant attitude to imagery....'.
    There is a Turkic world of invasion, destruction, theft, arson, mass-murder, mass rape, theft of children, paedophilia, forcible Islamic conversion, forcible Turkification, theft, arson, destruction, mass murder, and.....Genocide.

    There is your 'Turkic' world.
    Thank you.
    Thank you, very much.

    , @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    I agree, though I've never been into stylized human caricatures much - but that's just a personal taste. That sunburst pattern on that page was phenomenal though and I'm a big fan of really well done geometric patterns and calligraphy (which they also excelled in).

    It is interesting, I was inspired by this thread to ask an Indian (Hindu - but agnostic) co-worker about what he honestly thought about the Mughals. He actually had nothing but praise for them. Now this is interesting because he comes from the southern part of India where they never reached! He says the Muslim population there is 25% or so with a near 20% Christian and everyone gets along pretty well. He said they (Venad Dynasty) were the empire in that neck of the woods and they were the ones doing all the conquering along the coast and what not (until the Brits came along of course). For him the Mughal empire was pretty well put together and it almost seems like a Dane may have admired Imperial Rome in an abstract sense for its achievements, but never having had to live under them.

    And it's funny about art in a way, I kind of miss how colorful the past was, with each culture and locality having such distinction - almost like the various plumes in an aviary. In fact, some of the stuff you see in museums concerning what the various sultans wore is very ornate; embroidered, richly colored, etc. Seems almost 'fruity' to our tastes - but then again, they had more concubines than we could reasonably imagine (and I believe the Ottoman sultans were taught archery, sword and lance and riding horseback) so I don't think they had to prove their masculinity to anyone.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    The only great power that matters is the US. Let's get the US to endorse the 1948 plan today, and I shall then support it with all my heart and resources. Anything else is a waste of time and energy. I've seen my elders try and give up far too many times and I cannot retread those paths, especially with so much that has happened since.

    Mr. Shama,

    The GOOD Jews in Israel are proposing this Decision at 50 vote for a two state solution.

    If it wins there is a question as to what it will do – another Gaza or a real free Palestinian nation with just compensation for the Palestinian’s pain and suffering.

    The Jews voted NO peace in their last election – what will happen if Decision at 50 loses?

    Surly, if it loses it will put the onerous on all the worlds Jews. All the cards will be face up.

    We all know that one state with joint governing of Palestinians and Jews will NEVER happen.

    Looks like it is two state or hell!

    Art

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art
    Art: Clearly iffen wants all of Palestine – that makes him a bad man.

    Iffen,

    I apologize – I miss interpreted an early comment of yours. I am sorry.

    Do you think that the Palestinians should be compensated for 50 years of pain and suffering or is a Gaza II in the West Bank sufficient for your sense of justice?

    Art

    No need to apologize.

    I don’t have the solutions.

    It would seem that Palestinians who were expelled in 1948 and before should be entitled to compensation. It is not simple and I only know the vague outlines. What about the people who left voluntarily? What about Jews that were expelled from Arab countries? Didn’t some of those Jews leave voluntarily?

    Obviously, a 1948 style two state solution will not work if Israel turns it into one big Gaza. What can the Israeli’s do if per Gaza and Lebanon the nation state is weak and fails to prevent outside and inside groups from using Palestine to attack Israel. What then?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Ok back in the the day… when it was cool to kill the indigenous…(Indians…) and same thing other continens… where Hominids shows how indecent they can be… how much more liken the Hyena… than even da monky be…

    Sonsa beatches.. son of bitches…shows us how much that they really aren’t worthy to be in any concept that puts the man as better than say.. some ant or any awful dreadful creepy being!

    “We came We sawr he died hah hah hah Qackle quacle Weeze weeze… “

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    The only great power that matters is the US. Let's get the US to endorse the 1948 plan today, and I shall then support it with all my heart and resources. Anything else is a waste of time and energy. I've seen my elders try and give up far too many times and I cannot retread those paths, especially with so much that has happened since.

    Sam,

    I think you need to be honest with yourself.

    There is simply no power on earth capable of removing even one settler’s shoe from beyond the green line.

    There just isn’t.

    Read More
    • Agree: Sam Shama
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @iffen
    One that you think has the greatest chance of success in actually getting implemented

    I defer to you as to what is pragmatic.

    From a nearly neutral point of view, I think that the greatest chance for widespread support is to go back to the almost approved 1948 UN plan and offer the Palestinians the chance once more to take up the option of the two-state solution. This time the great powers should prevent the various Arab countries from sabotaging the plan.

    Art: Clearly iffen wants all of Palestine – that makes him a bad man.

    Iffen,

    I apologize – I miss interpreted an early comment of yours. I am sorry.

    Do you think that the Palestinians should be compensated for 50 years of pain and suffering or is a Gaza II in the West Bank sufficient for your sense of justice?

    Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    No need to apologize.

    I don’t have the solutions.

    It would seem that Palestinians who were expelled in 1948 and before should be entitled to compensation. It is not simple and I only know the vague outlines. What about the people who left voluntarily? What about Jews that were expelled from Arab countries? Didn’t some of those Jews leave voluntarily?

    Obviously, a 1948 style two state solution will not work if Israel turns it into one big Gaza. What can the Israeli’s do if per Gaza and Lebanon the nation state is weak and fails to prevent outside and inside groups from using Palestine to attack Israel. What then?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @iffen
    One that you think has the greatest chance of success in actually getting implemented

    I defer to you as to what is pragmatic.

    From a nearly neutral point of view, I think that the greatest chance for widespread support is to go back to the almost approved 1948 UN plan and offer the Palestinians the chance once more to take up the option of the two-state solution. This time the great powers should prevent the various Arab countries from sabotaging the plan.

    The only great power that matters is the US. Let’s get the US to endorse the 1948 plan today, and I shall then support it with all my heart and resources. Anything else is a waste of time and energy. I’ve seen my elders try and give up far too many times and I cannot retread those paths, especially with so much that has happened since.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Sam,

    I think you need to be honest with yourself.

    There is simply no power on earth capable of removing even one settler's shoe from beyond the green line.

    There just isn't.
    , @Art
    Mr. Shama,

    The GOOD Jews in Israel are proposing this Decision at 50 vote for a two state solution.

    If it wins there is a question as to what it will do – another Gaza or a real free Palestinian nation with just compensation for the Palestinian's pain and suffering.

    The Jews voted NO peace in their last election - what will happen if Decision at 50 loses?

    Surly, if it loses it will put the onerous on all the worlds Jews. All the cards will be face up.

    We all know that one state with joint governing of Palestinians and Jews will NEVER happen.

    Looks like it is two state or hell!

    Art
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous Smith
    You wrote: Christian outlook elsewhere, not in the US, is dramatically different and not Israel-centric.

    True enough...but Jewish power still calls the shots in ALL Western (Christian) nations. The NWO is not a Zionist thing, it's a Jewish thing. Take a look at this video...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-mGtCKYB9U

    Now ask yourself: why would Zionists care about Europe being multicultural? European multiculturalism doesn't hold any benefits for Israel whatsoever. Yet it's happening...Multiculturalism is being forced on Europe and the Jews are behind it.

    Are European Christians resisting the Jewish (NWO) plans for Europe? Or are they going along with it? Looks to me like they're going along with it. Oh, sure, there are some Christians who are shocked and outraged by the massive influx of Islamic "refugees", most of whom are young males, but I'm not seeing any real resistance to this mass-migration event. Indeed, we are seeing the Pope (that grinning fool) enthusiastically advocating for this massive influx of mostly young Islamic males into predominately white Europe. Why?

    My point is this...Evangelical Christians (Zionist Christians) are a small but important part of the larger Jewish global operation otherwise known as the New World Order. It is the Evangelical Christians who have been strenuously pushing - to the delight of the military-industrial complex - for the massive US military buildup that we've witnessed in the last couple decades. This they do on behalf of their Jewish masters. But it's not just the Evangelicals who are helping the Jews to implement their NWO, no sir, the vast majority of Christians are playing an absolutely vital role in this nefarious multigenerational project by PASSIVELY allowing it to take form.

    Here's another video I'd like you to watch. Hard to watch, I know, but watch it and let it sink in...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lctp6kvLijc

    Now, lemme ask you this, from what we've seen, do you think the Christian response to this massive crisis is, in any way, appropriate? In my view their response has not been appropriate, at all. Christians, in my view, are passive do-nothings...and craven to the bone!

    Oops! I made a boo boo. The second video I provided near the end of my post above is the wrong one…it’s a pro-Zionist anti-Islam piece, lol. The video that I wanted to post can be viewed here…

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/11/11/watch-anti-migrant-video-going-viral-across-europe/

    My apologies for the confusion.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    What is your preferred course of action? One that you think has the greatest chance of success in actually getting implemented

    One that you think has the greatest chance of success in actually getting implemented

    I defer to you as to what is pragmatic.

    From a nearly neutral point of view, I think that the greatest chance for widespread support is to go back to the almost approved 1948 UN plan and offer the Palestinians the chance once more to take up the option of the two-state solution. This time the great powers should prevent the various Arab countries from sabotaging the plan.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    The only great power that matters is the US. Let's get the US to endorse the 1948 plan today, and I shall then support it with all my heart and resources. Anything else is a waste of time and energy. I've seen my elders try and give up far too many times and I cannot retread those paths, especially with so much that has happened since.
    , @Art
    Art: Clearly iffen wants all of Palestine – that makes him a bad man.

    Iffen,

    I apologize – I miss interpreted an early comment of yours. I am sorry.

    Do you think that the Palestinians should be compensated for 50 years of pain and suffering or is a Gaza II in the West Bank sufficient for your sense of justice?

    Art
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    What is your preferred course of action? One that you think has the greatest chance of success in actually getting implemented

    What is your preferred course of action? One that you think has the greatest chance of success in actually getting implemented

    Clearly iffen wants all of Palestine – that makes him a bad man.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    Yes, I've heard the Javanese puppet plays are also an interesting tradition that has survived. Asian Muslim communities must be pretty syncretic the further south and east you go, hopefully they survive the Gulf-funded hardline movements. I had a Dutch friend who found the region fascinating, though I'm guessing the locals were happy to get rid of Dutch rule.

    Hey Marcus,

    the Javanese puppet plays

    Was extensively used and modified by the Wali Songo (Nine Friends of God) to make it more Islamically appropriate:
    “Several of the Wali Songo are known for making accommodations with local culture. Specifically, they are known for their use of wayang (shadow puppet theatre)…Some have argued that the highly stylized human forms in the Javanese wayang puppets reflect the influence of Islam that discourages the artistic representation of the human form.”
    A Peaceful Jihad: Negotiating Identity and Modernity in Muslim Java

    Yes – again, it’s the interplay between the Sufi and Sunni Orthodox (the old guard) and the Salafi/Wahhabi extremists. This is actually a really good article:

    “He is an acknowledged authority on the Koran, and his doctoral dissertation at the University of Chicago took the form of a long critique of Ibn Taymiyyah, a militant theorist much admired by the Wahhabi hard-liners. For Cak Nur [now deceased], the Islam of Indonesia is highly distinct from the supposedly orthodox Arab versions. “India is a mainly Hindu country, but most visitors want to see its great Taj Mahal—which is a Muslim monument. We are a mainly Muslim country, but our national symbols—Borobudur and Prambanan—are Buddhist and Hindu. The Muslims of the Arab world and India have a great past, but we have a great future. We must learn to separate Islam from Arabism—to break the monopoly.””

    http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2004/01/indonesia-200401

    Well stated, Nur…

    Yes they were happy to get rid of the Dutch and also the Japanese. The large number of community in South Africa called the ‘Cape Malays’ escaped the during the jihad against the Dutch, or were exiled there:
    “The origins of this migration can be traced to early in the sixteenth century when, at the end of Indonesia’s Majapahit Kingdom, European military penetration and anti-Islamic persecution caused resistance which was crushed by the Dutch. This led to many opponents of the Dutch being exiled to the Cape of Good Hope in southern Africa, which was also occupied by them. Some were also brought or captured from English, French and Portuguese ships. Included in this group were the Malay servants of the Dutch officials who were on their way back to the Netherlands from the East. The main group of African immigrant’s came from East Africa, Madagascar and West Africa. Many of these people were skilled artisans, such as silversmiths, milliners, cobblers, singers, masons and tailors. This group came to be known collectively as the ‘Cape Malay,’ despite their diverse origins as far afield as East Africa and Malaysia…
    The large majority being Muslims, were captured and sent into exile from colonies such as Madagascar, India, Ceylon and the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia as we know it today).”

    http://www.sahistory.org.za/article/cape-malay

    I met some on Hajj – really cool people, very much into Sufism and very mellow scholars. Many of them have their teachers in the Hadramaut area of Yemen where the great Shafi’i scholars reside and teach.

    If they keep on the general path that they are on and can keep radicalization at bay (and corruption in check), I believe they’ll do just fine.

    Peace.

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    • Agree: Marcus
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Andrei Martyanov
    What you described (and what I referred to) is a strictly American, that is United States , phenomenon--Protestantism taken to its extreme absolute. Christian outlook elsewhere, not in the US, is dramatically different and not Israel-centric. US Evangelical ministers tried to preach in Russia--failed miserably. Ask yourself a question why. Apart from pure theology the answer lies within the realm of national experiences.

    You wrote: Christian outlook elsewhere, not in the US, is dramatically different and not Israel-centric.

    True enough…but Jewish power still calls the shots in ALL Western (Christian) nations. The NWO is not a Zionist thing, it’s a Jewish thing. Take a look at this video…

    Now ask yourself: why would Zionists care about Europe being multicultural? European multiculturalism doesn’t hold any benefits for Israel whatsoever. Yet it’s happening…Multiculturalism is being forced on Europe and the Jews are behind it.

    Are European Christians resisting the Jewish (NWO) plans for Europe? Or are they going along with it? Looks to me like they’re going along with it. Oh, sure, there are some Christians who are shocked and outraged by the massive influx of Islamic “refugees”, most of whom are young males, but I’m not seeing any real resistance to this mass-migration event. Indeed, we are seeing the Pope (that grinning fool) enthusiastically advocating for this massive influx of mostly young Islamic males into predominately white Europe. Why?

    My point is this…Evangelical Christians (Zionist Christians) are a small but important part of the larger Jewish global operation otherwise known as the New World Order. It is the Evangelical Christians who have been strenuously pushing – to the delight of the military-industrial complex – for the massive US military buildup that we’ve witnessed in the last couple decades. This they do on behalf of their Jewish masters. But it’s not just the Evangelicals who are helping the Jews to implement their NWO, no sir, the vast majority of Christians are playing an absolutely vital role in this nefarious multigenerational project by PASSIVELY allowing it to take form.

    Here’s another video I’d like you to watch. Hard to watch, I know, but watch it and let it sink in…

    Now, lemme ask you this, from what we’ve seen, do you think the Christian response to this massive crisis is, in any way, appropriate? In my view their response has not been appropriate, at all. Christians, in my view, are passive do-nothings…and craven to the bone!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous Smith
    Oops! I made a boo boo. The second video I provided near the end of my post above is the wrong one...it's a pro-Zionist anti-Islam piece, lol. The video that I wanted to post can be viewed here...

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/11/11/watch-anti-migrant-video-going-viral-across-europe/

    My apologies for the confusion.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @iffen
    start with 1967, not 1948

    What is special about 1967? Why not 2016? Why not 2025? If one accepts the 1967 borders, what is the rationale for not accepting "any" additional annexations at any time, including the future?

    What is your preferred course of action? One that you think has the greatest chance of success in actually getting implemented

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    What is your preferred course of action? One that you think has the greatest chance of success in actually getting implemented

    Clearly iffen wants all of Palestine - that makes him a bad man.
    , @iffen
    One that you think has the greatest chance of success in actually getting implemented

    I defer to you as to what is pragmatic.

    From a nearly neutral point of view, I think that the greatest chance for widespread support is to go back to the almost approved 1948 UN plan and offer the Palestinians the chance once more to take up the option of the two-state solution. This time the great powers should prevent the various Arab countries from sabotaging the plan.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    Even defining Hinduism as a religion is tricky, you could say that all indigenous traditions of India were "Hindu," so there's never been any doctrine of conversion or apostasy. A Hindu could conceivably venerate Jesus, Muhammad, Moses etc., and indeed many have. The Rig Veda says "Truth is One, though the sages know it variously." However in the late 19th century some nationalist-inspired movements formed which are trying to bring Muslims and Christians back into the fold, but it's an uphill battle. The tolerant nature of paganism and polytheism puts it at disadvantage vis-a-vis monopolizing and aggressive Abrahamic faiths. Transition to Christianity might be easier for most Muslims outside of parts of the subcontinent, while I oppose all Abrahamic religions, I consider it the lesser of two evils. It's hard to gain much traction with laws against proselytization and apostasy in most Muslim countries though.

    [The tolerant nature of paganism and polytheism puts it at disadvantage vis-a-vis monopolizing and aggressive Abrahamic faiths. ]
    Judaism isn’t “monopolizing”; nor does it proselytise as I’m sure you know.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha

    most Muslims are ignorant or even contemptuous of their direct ancestors in Egypt or what’s now Pakistan.
     
    I would agree, but is that inherent in Islamic ethos or the politics of the age and the region? For instance I've never heard this kind of talk from Persians or Malays or Javanese who are quite Muslim and quite aware of their pre-Islamic heritage and have preserved aspects their origins. The Persians are quite well known, but taking the Javanese for example, they have preserved numerous Hindu and Buddhist temples and even their unique written language survived until the Dutch introduced Latin script. And yet the original Javanese script is preserved specifically by the ulema:
    "The name kawi in Javanese means ‘language of the poets’ and is an indication that it was a literary language, influenced by Sanskrit. Its use was prohibited under the Japanese occupation of Indonesia during World War II (1942-1945). Today, it is mostly used by religious scholars."
    http://aboutworldlanguages.com/javanese

    Or even their unique martial arts of silat...

    And even their mosques are built in a home-grown style completely unique to their people:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=javanese+mosque&espv=2&biw=1344&bih=791&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdqIee55HPAhUSz2MKHfpzDSUQsAQIKQ

    Contrast that with many of the mosques in India which seem like they were built elsewhere and transported there when compared to native architecture.

    Peace.

    Yes, I’ve heard the Javanese puppet plays are also an interesting tradition that has survived. Asian Muslim communities must be pretty syncretic the further south and east you go, hopefully they survive the Gulf-funded hardline movements. I had a Dutch friend who found the region fascinating, though I’m guessing the locals were happy to get rid of Dutch rule.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    the Javanese puppet plays
     
    Was extensively used and modified by the Wali Songo (Nine Friends of God) to make it more Islamically appropriate:
    "Several of the Wali Songo are known for making accommodations with local culture. Specifically, they are known for their use of wayang (shadow puppet theatre)...Some have argued that the highly stylized human forms in the Javanese wayang puppets reflect the influence of Islam that discourages the artistic representation of the human form."
    A Peaceful Jihad: Negotiating Identity and Modernity in Muslim Java

    Yes - again, it's the interplay between the Sufi and Sunni Orthodox (the old guard) and the Salafi/Wahhabi extremists. This is actually a really good article:

    "He is an acknowledged authority on the Koran, and his doctoral dissertation at the University of Chicago took the form of a long critique of Ibn Taymiyyah, a militant theorist much admired by the Wahhabi hard-liners. For Cak Nur [now deceased], the Islam of Indonesia is highly distinct from the supposedly orthodox Arab versions. “India is a mainly Hindu country, but most visitors want to see its great Taj Mahal—which is a Muslim monument. We are a mainly Muslim country, but our national symbols—Borobudur and Prambanan—are Buddhist and Hindu. The Muslims of the Arab world and India have a great past, but we have a great future. We must learn to separate Islam from Arabism—to break the monopoly.”"
    http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2004/01/indonesia-200401

    Well stated, Nur...

    Yes they were happy to get rid of the Dutch and also the Japanese. The large number of community in South Africa called the 'Cape Malays' escaped the during the jihad against the Dutch, or were exiled there:
    "The origins of this migration can be traced to early in the sixteenth century when, at the end of Indonesia's Majapahit Kingdom, European military penetration and anti-Islamic persecution caused resistance which was crushed by the Dutch. This led to many opponents of the Dutch being exiled to the Cape of Good Hope in southern Africa, which was also occupied by them. Some were also brought or captured from English, French and Portuguese ships. Included in this group were the Malay servants of the Dutch officials who were on their way back to the Netherlands from the East. The main group of African immigrant’s came from East Africa, Madagascar and West Africa. Many of these people were skilled artisans, such as silversmiths, milliners, cobblers, singers, masons and tailors. This group came to be known collectively as the ‘Cape Malay,’ despite their diverse origins as far afield as East Africa and Malaysia...
    The large majority being Muslims, were captured and sent into exile from colonies such as Madagascar, India, Ceylon and the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia as we know it today)."

    http://www.sahistory.org.za/article/cape-malay

    I met some on Hajj - really cool people, very much into Sufism and very mellow scholars. Many of them have their teachers in the Hadramaut area of Yemen where the great Shafi'i scholars reside and teach.

    If they keep on the general path that they are on and can keep radicalization at bay (and corruption in check), I believe they'll do just fine.

    Peace.

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  • What is special about 1967? Why not 2016? Why not 2025? If one accepts the 1967 borders, what is the rationale for not accepting “any” additional annexations at any time, including the future?

    Is Israel on the Brink of Tearing Itself Asunder?
    By Jonathan Cook

    September 15, 2016 “Information Clearing House” – Is Israel on the verge of civil war, as a growing number of Israeli commentators suggest, with its Jewish population deeply riven over the future of the occupation?

    On one side is a new peace movement, Decision at 50, stuffed with former political and security leaders. Ehud Barak, a previous prime minister who appears to be seeking a political comeback, may yet emerge as its figurehead.

    After many years in power, the right is growing in confidence. It sees no price has been paid, either at home or abroad, for endlessly tightening the screws on the Palestinians.

    Israeli moderates have had to confront the painful reality that their country is not quite the enlightened outpost in the Middle East they had imagined. They may raise their voices in protest now but, if the polls are right, most will eventually submit to the right’s realisation of its vision of a Greater Israel.

    Those who cannot stomach such an outcome will have to stop equivocating and choose a side. They can leave, as some are already doing, or stay and fight – not for a bogus referendum that solves nothing, but to demand dignity and freedom for the Palestinian people.

    More:

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article45473.htm

    Decision at 50 — the GOOD Israeli Jews want Gasa II for the West Bank. What moral trash these people are!

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  • @Andrei Martyanov
    I really appreciate your excursion into quantum mechanics but FYI I do have books by Michio Kaku or Greene (namely Hidden Reality), among many. But me, being a very simple man and living by "approximations" and sometimes generalizations, this is by far more important (and pressing) manifestations of Islam, than any intellectual exercises:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2hMYOYbC-4

    Dr. Kaku is awesome and his articles and even videos are generally very accessible to the majority of the public. So I’m confused, if you are already well-aware of the (post-1930′s) problems in the assumptions of the foundations of deterministic causality – why do you keep bringing this up as a tool to try to point out Muslim backwardness (this is the second thread where you have done so)?

    …I’m not really expecting an answer, this is more rhetorical than anything…

    As far as the video, meh…you want me to validate that stupidity? Kick them out! Thank God it is Europe, hopefully there will simply be deportations and not pogroms.

    Anyway, you have my respect and thanks for keeping it civil.

    May God preserve you and yours.

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  • Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Anonymous Smith
    I totally agree, Smoothie!

    Jews can only flourish in nations that are predominately Christian...that's why they invented Christianity, so that they would have a large and permanent Goyim host entity to feed off of. They created the Scofield Bible so that they could dig-in and jam their proboscis even deeper into the Christian host nation, intensifying their blood orgy.

    What you described (and what I referred to) is a strictly American, that is United States , phenomenon–Protestantism taken to its extreme absolute. Christian outlook elsewhere, not in the US, is dramatically different and not Israel-centric. US Evangelical ministers tried to preach in Russia–failed miserably. Ask yourself a question why. Apart from pure theology the answer lies within the realm of national experiences.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous Smith
    You wrote: Christian outlook elsewhere, not in the US, is dramatically different and not Israel-centric.

    True enough...but Jewish power still calls the shots in ALL Western (Christian) nations. The NWO is not a Zionist thing, it's a Jewish thing. Take a look at this video...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-mGtCKYB9U

    Now ask yourself: why would Zionists care about Europe being multicultural? European multiculturalism doesn't hold any benefits for Israel whatsoever. Yet it's happening...Multiculturalism is being forced on Europe and the Jews are behind it.

    Are European Christians resisting the Jewish (NWO) plans for Europe? Or are they going along with it? Looks to me like they're going along with it. Oh, sure, there are some Christians who are shocked and outraged by the massive influx of Islamic "refugees", most of whom are young males, but I'm not seeing any real resistance to this mass-migration event. Indeed, we are seeing the Pope (that grinning fool) enthusiastically advocating for this massive influx of mostly young Islamic males into predominately white Europe. Why?

    My point is this...Evangelical Christians (Zionist Christians) are a small but important part of the larger Jewish global operation otherwise known as the New World Order. It is the Evangelical Christians who have been strenuously pushing - to the delight of the military-industrial complex - for the massive US military buildup that we've witnessed in the last couple decades. This they do on behalf of their Jewish masters. But it's not just the Evangelicals who are helping the Jews to implement their NWO, no sir, the vast majority of Christians are playing an absolutely vital role in this nefarious multigenerational project by PASSIVELY allowing it to take form.

    Here's another video I'd like you to watch. Hard to watch, I know, but watch it and let it sink in...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lctp6kvLijc

    Now, lemme ask you this, from what we've seen, do you think the Christian response to this massive crisis is, in any way, appropriate? In my view their response has not been appropriate, at all. Christians, in my view, are passive do-nothings...and craven to the bone!
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  • @Marcus
    Of course that wasn't the only instance of Christian destruction, there was the Reformation and the anti-pagan persecution that looted or destroyed temples. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousbench/2014/07/the-breaking-of-images/ However, I don't think you can compare it to Mohammedanism (or Judaism) since Christianity isn't legalistic by nature, its antihuman elements aren't codified as integral to the faith, hence great sculpture and portraiture (let alone music) could be reborn in Europe, but never in the Muslim world. Christians could eventually exhume the great Greco-Roman civilizations and then those of the rest of the world to light for all to admire, whereas most Muslims are ignorant or even contemptuous of their direct ancestors in Egypt or what's now Pakistan.

    most Muslims are ignorant or even contemptuous of their direct ancestors in Egypt or what’s now Pakistan.

    I would agree, but is that inherent in Islamic ethos or the politics of the age and the region? For instance I’ve never heard this kind of talk from Persians or Malays or Javanese who are quite Muslim and quite aware of their pre-Islamic heritage and have preserved aspects their origins. The Persians are quite well known, but taking the Javanese for example, they have preserved numerous Hindu and Buddhist temples and even their unique written language survived until the Dutch introduced Latin script. And yet the original Javanese script is preserved specifically by the ulema:
    “The name kawi in Javanese means ‘language of the poets’ and is an indication that it was a literary language, influenced by Sanskrit. Its use was prohibited under the Japanese occupation of Indonesia during World War II (1942-1945). Today, it is mostly used by religious scholars.

    http://aboutworldlanguages.com/javanese

    Or even their unique martial arts of silat…

    And even their mosques are built in a home-grown style completely unique to their people:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=javanese+mosque&espv=2&biw=1344&bih=791&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdqIee55HPAhUSz2MKHfpzDSUQsAQIKQ

    Contrast that with many of the mosques in India which seem like they were built elsewhere and transported there when compared to native architecture.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    Yes, I've heard the Javanese puppet plays are also an interesting tradition that has survived. Asian Muslim communities must be pretty syncretic the further south and east you go, hopefully they survive the Gulf-funded hardline movements. I had a Dutch friend who found the region fascinating, though I'm guessing the locals were happy to get rid of Dutch rule.
    , @Marcus
    Regarding visual arts, I should've mentioned the Persianate/South Asian style, which is definitely serene and beautiful in its own way. The Persian-Turkic world seemed to have more tolerant attitude to imagery at times
    http://breakcomcs.blogspot.com/2011/03/mughal-paintings-particular-style-of.html
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  • @Andrei Martyanov

    The AIPAC, ADL, Horowitz’s Freedom Center and such are filled with lunatics whose main accomplishment is the rivers of blood and mountains of flesh of innocent civilians, including tens if not hundreds of thousands of children, in the Middle East. — What a ghastly monument to Zionism.
     
    Again and again, I reiterate--this collection of war criminals wouldn't be possible without Evangelical Old Testament right, which considers itself to be the only true, 100% USDA approved Americans. This is the union made in hell. They also think of themselves as true Christians.

    Agree

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  • @Andrei Martyanov

    The AIPAC, ADL, Horowitz’s Freedom Center and such are filled with lunatics whose main accomplishment is the rivers of blood and mountains of flesh of innocent civilians, including tens if not hundreds of thousands of children, in the Middle East. — What a ghastly monument to Zionism.
     
    Again and again, I reiterate--this collection of war criminals wouldn't be possible without Evangelical Old Testament right, which considers itself to be the only true, 100% USDA approved Americans. This is the union made in hell. They also think of themselves as true Christians.

    I totally agree, Smoothie!

    Jews can only flourish in nations that are predominately Christian…that’s why they invented Christianity, so that they would have a large and permanent Goyim host entity to feed off of. They created the Scofield Bible so that they could dig-in and jam their proboscis even deeper into the Christian host nation, intensifying their blood orgy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    What you described (and what I referred to) is a strictly American, that is United States , phenomenon--Protestantism taken to its extreme absolute. Christian outlook elsewhere, not in the US, is dramatically different and not Israel-centric. US Evangelical ministers tried to preach in Russia--failed miserably. Ask yourself a question why. Apart from pure theology the answer lies within the realm of national experiences.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    Even defining Hinduism as a religion is tricky, you could say that all indigenous traditions of India were "Hindu," so there's never been any doctrine of conversion or apostasy. A Hindu could conceivably venerate Jesus, Muhammad, Moses etc., and indeed many have. The Rig Veda says "Truth is One, though the sages know it variously." However in the late 19th century some nationalist-inspired movements formed which are trying to bring Muslims and Christians back into the fold, but it's an uphill battle. The tolerant nature of paganism and polytheism puts it at disadvantage vis-a-vis monopolizing and aggressive Abrahamic faiths. Transition to Christianity might be easier for most Muslims outside of parts of the subcontinent, while I oppose all Abrahamic religions, I consider it the lesser of two evils. It's hard to gain much traction with laws against proselytization and apostasy in most Muslim countries though.

    Hey Marcus,

    Even defining Hinduism as a religion is tricky

    Or India as a ‘nation’ – it is more like Europe. I have a co-worker from Kerala – totally different customs, deities, and celebrations than other regions of India.

    which are trying to bring Muslims and Christians back into the fold

    Which is stupid, because as you stated – what’s the point if everyone can reach the truth through their own path. Who cares as long as they leave you alone?

    The tolerant nature of paganism and polytheism puts it at disadvantage vis-a-vis monopolizing and aggressive Abrahamic faiths.

    It can be quite intolerant too, but I definitely acknowledge this strain. I would say polytheism is inherently inclusive (you got gods too? bring ‘em!). The pagans of the Hijaz had lots of different idols (of the various regions of Arabia) in the Kabah. But then again, you have to square your polytheistic belief with the post atomic age of man – good luck. I don’t know of any educated Hindu I have met that actually believes in the reality of that narrative (maybe some exist) in as much as I have met any Greeks that look to Mount Olympus for signs of Zeus.

    Transition to Christianity might be easier for most Muslims

    It is, but most become atheist or agnostic from my experience (growing up with tawhid generally seems to have a prophylactic effect with regards to a triune godhead concept) and searching around the web – and quite leftist actually.

    Peace.

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  • @Clyde
    The Hindus of India look like the Muslims of India/Pakistan so most Muslims there are derived from forcible conversions of Hindus. Go ahead if you like and give me your percentages of today's Muslims in the Indo-Pak region who are Muslim due to Sufi (lol) preachers and to forcible conversions. What is your breakdown on this?

    And what a shame that ol buccaneer Muhammad did not have any Sufi preachers to help him convert the Christians of the Middle East to Mohammedanism in the 7th century. So so much blood letting could have been avoided as followers of Jesus surely would have gravitated to the so called final prophet.

    And this, boys and girls, is why we need to bring logic into our educational system as a core subject. Thankfully, I was exposed to it as a CS&E major.

    The Hindus of India look like the Muslims of India/Pakistan so most Muslims there are derived from forcible conversions of Hindus.

    The underlying assumption being that a person switches phenotype if they convert willingly versus if they are forced…I’ll let everyone think on that one for a bit.

    What is your breakdown on this?

    Rough estimate…based on all academic readings on the subject with the following highlights:
    1) Shafi’i school being replaced by the Hanafi in administration
    2) Well documented work of the many Sufi teachers and orders
    3) The Afghan invasions coming very late in the game (mid 18th century) – and they were known for forced conversions
    4) The fact that an overwhelming number of Indians chose to remain Hindu even under complete Mughal domination

    A super-majority (of those that converted) are easily willing converts (now many of these would definitely be those who converted to gain a better social position or be relieved of tax burden). For this generalization, I appeal to this work “The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760″ by Richard Eaton – the contents of it are online here (especially his discussion and analysis of the four theories of conversion in India):

    http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft067n99v9&chunk.id=ch05&toc.depth=1&toc.id=ch05&brand=eschol

    “If Islamization had ever been a function of military or political force, one would expect that those areas exposed most intensively and over the longest period to rule by Muslim dynasties—that is, those that were most fully exposed to the “sword”—would today contain the greatest number of Muslims. Yet the opposite is the case, as those regions where the most dramatic Islamization occurred, such as eastern Bengal or western Punjab, lay on the fringes of Indo-Muslim rule, where the “sword” was weakest, and where brute force could have exerted the least influence. In such regions the first accurate census reports put the Muslim population at between 70 and 90 percent of the total, whereas in the heartland of Muslim rule in the upper Gangetic Plain—the domain of the Delhi Fort and the Taj Mahal, where Muslim regimes had ruled the most intensively and for the longest period of time—the Muslim population ranged from only 10 to 15 percent. In other words, in the subcontinent as a whole there is an inverse relationship between the degree of Muslim political penetration and the degree of Islamization. Even within Bengal this principle holds true.”

    did not have any Sufi preachers

    His companions were the original Sufis, you can try to find any Sufi order that doesn’t trace their chain back to one or more of them.

    Peace.

    I’ll answer my own question; the Uwaisi order does (kind of) trace itself back to a man who was their contemporary, but never met the Prophet (pbuh) in person.

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    • Replies: @Clyde
    Richard Eaton presents the sunny side of the Islamic sword of conversion. I don't believe him and can find people who don't go along with this. Jizya also forces conversions.

    But anyway with my original question. Converted peacefully (allegedly no compulsion in Islam...lol) or via the sword, with all the Muslims in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh. What percentage have Hindu/other ancestry? Must be at least 85%.
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  • @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    We studied this episode in my Byzantine History course and yes, there is evidence that it was inspired by the edict of Caliph Yazid II - which was repealed by his successors:
    http://lingualeo.com/es/jungle/the-iconoclastic-edict-caliph-yazid-ii-ad-721-by-aa-vasiliev-432970#/page/1

    Think of all the great Orthodox icons and mosaics that were lost
     
    Correct and Daesh is carrying out a destruction that lays to waste centuries worth of work of cooperative human endeavor to preserve these things.

    Peace.

    Of course that wasn’t the only instance of Christian destruction, there was the Reformation and the anti-pagan persecution that looted or destroyed temples. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousbench/2014/07/the-breaking-of-images/ However, I don’t think you can compare it to Mohammedanism (or Judaism) since Christianity isn’t legalistic by nature, its antihuman elements aren’t codified as integral to the faith, hence great sculpture and portraiture (let alone music) could be reborn in Europe, but never in the Muslim world. Christians could eventually exhume the great Greco-Roman civilizations and then those of the rest of the world to light for all to admire, whereas most Muslims are ignorant or even contemptuous of their direct ancestors in Egypt or what’s now Pakistan.

    Read More
    • Agree: Andrei Martyanov
    • Replies: @Talha

    most Muslims are ignorant or even contemptuous of their direct ancestors in Egypt or what’s now Pakistan.
     
    I would agree, but is that inherent in Islamic ethos or the politics of the age and the region? For instance I've never heard this kind of talk from Persians or Malays or Javanese who are quite Muslim and quite aware of their pre-Islamic heritage and have preserved aspects their origins. The Persians are quite well known, but taking the Javanese for example, they have preserved numerous Hindu and Buddhist temples and even their unique written language survived until the Dutch introduced Latin script. And yet the original Javanese script is preserved specifically by the ulema:
    "The name kawi in Javanese means ‘language of the poets’ and is an indication that it was a literary language, influenced by Sanskrit. Its use was prohibited under the Japanese occupation of Indonesia during World War II (1942-1945). Today, it is mostly used by religious scholars."
    http://aboutworldlanguages.com/javanese

    Or even their unique martial arts of silat...

    And even their mosques are built in a home-grown style completely unique to their people:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=javanese+mosque&espv=2&biw=1344&bih=791&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdqIee55HPAhUSz2MKHfpzDSUQsAQIKQ

    Contrast that with many of the mosques in India which seem like they were built elsewhere and transported there when compared to native architecture.

    Peace.

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  • @Sam Shama
    Yeah it is happening slowly. I had noted the IDF general staff's mood previously:
    http://www.unz.com/article/fifty-one-foreign-service-officers-cant-be-wrong/?highlight=IDF#comment-1464000

    The key is to not elicit a sharp reaction from Netanyahu but chip away. My point re: 1948 was simple. If the objective is to get the Pals a livable deal, start with 1967, not 1948, [which does not preclude compensation for those displaced in 1948, only that arguments for a RoR won't be of any use]

    start with 1967, not 1948

    What is special about 1967? Why not 2016? Why not 2025? If one accepts the 1967 borders, what is the rationale for not accepting “any” additional annexations at any time, including the future?

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    What is your preferred course of action? One that you think has the greatest chance of success in actually getting implemented
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  • Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @annamaria
    Thank you for the factual material.
    The bellicose Judaism is no different than the bellicose Islam or bellicose Christianity. The ziocons' deeds are similar to the deeds of Inquisition during Reformation years; exercise of alleged ideological purity through inflicting death and sufferings to "others."

    It is impossible to overlook the names of main ideologues and cheerleaders of the ongoing tragedy in the Middle East: The predominance of the names of Israel-firsters and Zionists speaks for itself.
    The US ziocons have managed to bring the Middle East problems into Europe and to saddle the EU with the bill for the US/Israel/EU misadventures (war crimes, actually) that have destroyed the formally functioning Middle East states.
    The AIPAC, ADL, Horowitz’s Freedom Center and such are filled with lunatics whose main accomplishment is the rivers of blood and mountains of flesh of innocent civilians, including tens if not hundreds of thousands of children, in the Middle East. -- What a ghastly monument to Zionism.

    The AIPAC, ADL, Horowitz’s Freedom Center and such are filled with lunatics whose main accomplishment is the rivers of blood and mountains of flesh of innocent civilians, including tens if not hundreds of thousands of children, in the Middle East. — What a ghastly monument to Zionism.

    Again and again, I reiterate–this collection of war criminals wouldn’t be possible without Evangelical Old Testament right, which considers itself to be the only true, 100% USDA approved Americans. This is the union made in hell. They also think of themselves as true Christians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous Smith
    I totally agree, Smoothie!

    Jews can only flourish in nations that are predominately Christian...that's why they invented Christianity, so that they would have a large and permanent Goyim host entity to feed off of. They created the Scofield Bible so that they could dig-in and jam their proboscis even deeper into the Christian host nation, intensifying their blood orgy.
    , @annamaria
    Agree
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  • @KA
    1 America’s response to the 9/11 attacks augmented rather than defeated the jihadist threat, with the consequences of the Iraq war now being felt in terror-scarred France, President Francois Hollande said Sunday, as the US marked the 15th anniversary of the devastating attacks in New York and Washington, DC.

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/us-response-to-911-increased-global-terror-threat-hollande/

    In a late-night address to the nation, French President Francois Hollande linked the deadly "terrorist attack" in Nice to the conflict in Iraq and Syria -- and said France will intensify its military operations there in the aftermath of today's tragedy.
    http://abcnews.go.com/International/french-president-links-nice-attack-iraq-syria-conflict/story?id=40597252


    Who intentionally messed up post war Iraq ?

    2 "First, we didn’t invade Iraq to bring democracy — but once we overthrew Saddam, we had a view of what should follow,” Rice responded. “If Don and the Pentagon had done their job (after claiming the rights to lead post-war rebuilding—things might have turned out differently).”


    Powell replied by seconding Rice’s critique, saying “the boys in the band were brain dead.”

    “Doug and Paul claims they had a plan (turn Iraq and our Army over to Chalibi) and leave,” Powell wrote, appearing to reference Bush administration officials Doug Feith, Paul Wolfowitz, and the late Iraqi politician Ahmed Chalabi, who died last year.

    “43 knew what had to be done,” Powell continued, referring to President George W. Bush, “specifically rejected the Chalibi crowd and as you say the boys in the band were brain dead.”

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/christophermassie/rice-if-rumsfeld-pentagon-had-done-their-job-iraq-might-have?utm_term=.rkkPaQJKzg#.py0kW3Ql1b

    4 Didn't Micheal Ledeen ask for more chaos and wasn't it him who demand that the cauldron of destruction be unleashed on ME as fast as possible when chaos was predicted by sane people?

    3 Who ordered to foment mess Iraq ? We should ask Brenenr .



    He should call Hollande and let him know how disappointed he was and how Hollande just provided succor to terror. Spencer and Geller would be very upset with Hollande now- how is it possible For Hollande to ignore all their pleas writings and education?
    ---

    Yes, Micheal Ledeen, of Operation Gladio fame.
    Ledeed, similar to the Kagans (see their exploits in Ukraine) has never seen any problems in embracing Nazism.

    “The name Gladio, (or ‘Sword’ in Italian) was technically the name given to their operations in Italy, but has since come by extension to stand for the phenomenon as a whole. Evidence [was] meticulously documented by Swiss historian Daniele Ganser in his 2004 book “NATO’s Secret Armies”…The evidence contained in Ganser’s book, of terrorism directed against the people by secret armies funded and organised by NATO and answerable to deep state elements within NATO, MI6 and the CIA rather than the respective governments is so shocking that the initial reaction of most people would be to reject it….
    The terrorist bombings proved to be a means by which Pentagon planners were able to take their own (imaginary or delusional) fears about the rise of the Left and turn them into very real and concrete fears for the populace….Among the most far-reaching findings on the secret war, as seen in the analysis, ranges the fact that the stay-behind network had served as a tool to spread fear amongst the population also in the absence of an invasion. The secret armies in some cases functioned as an almost perfect manipulation system that transported the fears of high-ranking military officers in the Pentagon and NATO to the populations in Western Europe. … brutality and terror was employed to control populations on both sides of the Iron Curtain….”

    https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Operation_Gladio

    Yellow Cake and Black Shirt: Michael Ledeen linked to “Gladio”

    http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104×4081269

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  • @KA
    1 Geller and Spencer’s work actually shaped Breivik’s ideas, Walt explains -

    http://mondoweiss.net/2011/07/geller-and-spencers-work-actually-shaped-breiviks-ideas-walt-explains/#sthash.00Yy4NvR.dpuf


    Jewish Communal Fund, a mainstream philanthropic fund that describes itself as “dedicated to the welfare and security of the Jewish community at home and abroad,” has funded Geller’s work. JCF’s annual tax filings show contributions of $30,000 in the 2012 tax year and $70,000 in the 2013 tax year, the last tax year for which filings are available, directed to Geller’s AFDI [American Freedom Defense Initiative].

    - http://mondoweiss.net/2015/11/jewish-communal-islamophobia/#sthash.OHTNvqLN.dpuf


    The Clarion Fund, an offshoot of the Jewish Orthodox fundamentalist Aish HaTorah, gained notoriety for its distribution of the film “Obsession: Radical Islam’s War Against the West” to 28 million swing state voters before the 2008 presidential election between then-Sen. Barack Obama, an Illinois Democrat, and Sen. John McCain, a Republican in Arizona. The film’s central thesis was that fundamentalist Islam is as bad as, if not worse than, Nazism. -

    http://mondoweiss.net/2015/11/jewish-communal-islamophobia/#sthash.OHTNvqLN.dpuf

    She ( Geller) has used her celebrity, boosted by Fox News (a principal player in the Islamophobia industry), to create cross-continental activist networks against Islam. Robert Spencer, Geller’s partner in crime, is also a focus of Lean’s. “People such as Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, or Martin Kramer, all online Islamophobes, spread each others’ postings and write-ups to their own audience,” writes Lean. “With each new click of the mouse, the story grows.”

    -http://mondoweiss.net/2012/10/an-industry-built-on-hate-how-the-right-wing-successfully-brought-anti-muslim-bigotry-into-the-american-mainstream/#sthash.OC92gYF1.dpuf


    But Spencer has never studied Islam. He holds a master’s degree in religious studies related to early Christianity from the University of North Carolina.

    - http://mondoweiss.net/2012/09/fraudsters-new-report-highlights-how-islamophobes-have-no-expertise-in-the-religion-they-claim-to-know/#sthash.hWZ36en8.dpuf

    Spencer coauthored book with Geller,hates Obama's support for Palestinian state .


    * Spencer publishes a book entitled Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs in 2008.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/08/24/islamophobia-in-america/


    Besides providing the initial energy for the Islamophobic crusade, conservative elements from within the pro-Israel lobby bankrolled the network’s apparatus, enabling it to influence the national debate. One philanthropist in particular has provided the beneficence to propel the campaign ahead. He is a little-known Los Angeles-area software security entrepreneur named Aubrey Chernick, who operates out of a security consulting firm blandly named the National Center for Crisis and Continuity Coordination. A former trustee of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, which has served as a think tank for the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), a frontline lobbying group for Israel, Chernick is said to be worth $750 million.


    Through the Fairbrook Foundation, a private entity he and his wife Joyce control, Chernick has provided funding to groups ranging from the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) and CAMERA, a right-wing, pro-Israel, media-watchdog outfit, to violent Israeli settlers living on Palestinian lands and figures like the pseudo-academic author Robert Spencer, who is largely responsible for popularizing conspiracy theories about the coming conquest of the West by Muslim fanatics seeking to establish a worldwide caliphate.


    According to the website Politico, almost $1 million in donations from Chernick has been steered to Spencer’s Jihad Watch group through David Horowitz’s Freedom Center.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2010/12/20/the-great-fear-2/

    Thank you for the factual material.
    The bellicose Judaism is no different than the bellicose Islam or bellicose Christianity. The ziocons’ deeds are similar to the deeds of Inquisition during Reformation years; exercise of alleged ideological purity through inflicting death and sufferings to “others.”

    It is impossible to overlook the names of main ideologues and cheerleaders of the ongoing tragedy in the Middle East: The predominance of the names of Israel-firsters and Zionists speaks for itself.
    The US ziocons have managed to bring the Middle East problems into Europe and to saddle the EU with the bill for the US/Israel/EU misadventures (war crimes, actually) that have destroyed the formally functioning Middle East states.
    The AIPAC, ADL, Horowitz’s Freedom Center and such are filled with lunatics whose main accomplishment is the rivers of blood and mountains of flesh of innocent civilians, including tens if not hundreds of thousands of children, in the Middle East. — What a ghastly monument to Zionism.

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    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    The AIPAC, ADL, Horowitz’s Freedom Center and such are filled with lunatics whose main accomplishment is the rivers of blood and mountains of flesh of innocent civilians, including tens if not hundreds of thousands of children, in the Middle East. — What a ghastly monument to Zionism.
     
    Again and again, I reiterate--this collection of war criminals wouldn't be possible without Evangelical Old Testament right, which considers itself to be the only true, 100% USDA approved Americans. This is the union made in hell. They also think of themselves as true Christians.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    There may have indeed been fatwas against her, but are you saying there was actually a fatwa from a legitimate qualified scholar that stated she could be killed with impunity by anyone - I would have to see this to believe it. Or are you saying the fatwa was calling on the government to stop and/or punish her - this is more likely. You have to keep in mind what fatwas are; they are juristic opinions coming from a body of scholars that fill a quasi-legislative/judicial role in society. Just as in our society, a judge can set down a judgement, but it must be executed by those with executive prerogative/privileges. The connection is explained by Mufti Musa Furber (db), with the example of a fatwa issued for wild-life protection in Indonesia:
    "Indonesia made a splash in 2014 when it issued a wildlife protection fatwa. A fatwa is, by its very nature, a non-binding opinion. A wildlife protection fatwa means nothing if it is not gazetted into legislation and then enforced. And it needs to be proactively enforced in order to be truly preventative – otherwise, it can be shrugged off as a business fine or risk."
    http://musafurber.com/2016/08/27/indonesian-man-arrested-650-pangolins-found-dead-freezers/

    For instance, historically, the Shafi'i scholars were formulating fatwa after fatwa on matters which were simply ignored by the ruling Abbasid authorities in lieu of the fatwas of the Hanafi school which they favored.


    The Muslims of the Indian subcontinent are heirs to the great traditions of the Dharmic civilizations, maybe they can rediscover these.
     
    Correct, much of the meditation, attainment of spiritual states through asceticism and rigor has already been absorbed into Sufi practices as much as can be allowed for. We discussed Imam Biruni (ra) and his balanced approach to viewing and evaluating these Dharmic traditions. This needs to be revived. I don't think many Muslims will convert to Hinduism (even less than any movement from Christianity toward Hinduism), you'll get a rare one here and there. I've personally met Hindu converts to Islam, never met one going the other way.

    Peace.

    Even defining Hinduism as a religion is tricky, you could say that all indigenous traditions of India were “Hindu,” so there’s never been any doctrine of conversion or apostasy. A Hindu could conceivably venerate Jesus, Muhammad, Moses etc., and indeed many have. The Rig Veda says “Truth is One, though the sages know it variously.” However in the late 19th century some nationalist-inspired movements formed which are trying to bring Muslims and Christians back into the fold, but it’s an uphill battle. The tolerant nature of paganism and polytheism puts it at disadvantage vis-a-vis monopolizing and aggressive Abrahamic faiths. Transition to Christianity might be easier for most Muslims outside of parts of the subcontinent, while I oppose all Abrahamic religions, I consider it the lesser of two evils. It’s hard to gain much traction with laws against proselytization and apostasy in most Muslim countries though.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Marcus,


    Even defining Hinduism as a religion is tricky
     
    Or India as a 'nation' - it is more like Europe. I have a co-worker from Kerala - totally different customs, deities, and celebrations than other regions of India.

    which are trying to bring Muslims and Christians back into the fold
     
    Which is stupid, because as you stated - what's the point if everyone can reach the truth through their own path. Who cares as long as they leave you alone?

    The tolerant nature of paganism and polytheism puts it at disadvantage vis-a-vis monopolizing and aggressive Abrahamic faiths.
     
    It can be quite intolerant too, but I definitely acknowledge this strain. I would say polytheism is inherently inclusive (you got gods too? bring 'em!). The pagans of the Hijaz had lots of different idols (of the various regions of Arabia) in the Kabah. But then again, you have to square your polytheistic belief with the post atomic age of man - good luck. I don't know of any educated Hindu I have met that actually believes in the reality of that narrative (maybe some exist) in as much as I have met any Greeks that look to Mount Olympus for signs of Zeus.

    Transition to Christianity might be easier for most Muslims
     
    It is, but most become atheist or agnostic from my experience (growing up with tawhid generally seems to have a prophylactic effect with regards to a triune godhead concept) and searching around the web - and quite leftist actually.

    Peace.
    , @Sam Shama
    [The tolerant nature of paganism and polytheism puts it at disadvantage vis-a-vis monopolizing and aggressive Abrahamic faiths. ]
    Judaism isn't "monopolizing"; nor does it proselytise as I'm sure you know.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Talha
    Sigh...you know, you have some very solid criticisms and then you bring out this straw-man nonsense based on Mr. Reilly totally misunderstanding an issue he has zero expertise in.

    determinism with their haram cause and effect
     
    I studied aqeedah (Islamic creed) under a mufti who was a direct student of the late Damascene scholar Shaykh Adib Kallas (ra) a remarkable theologian who was a master of this science (so I know a bit about what we believe): http://seekershub.org/blog/2009/10/shaykh-adib-kallas-died-today-october-21-2009-one-of-the-foremost-scholars-of-our-times/

    You are bringing out nonsense that Muslims deny observable cause and effect - what the Sunni Orthodox deny is that causality that exists outside the will of God in objects (in and of themselves or by their very nature). Thus, the belief is, while indeed through His omnipotence God creates both the cause and the effect and fuses the two together - through His wisdom He allows it to follow a usual pattern - while being able to break with the pattern at any time. What does this mean in practice? Not much, a Muslim chemist will carry on his work and observing that one chemical compound interacts predictably with another in a measured way, while believing internally that God is the true cause behind everything his eyes see and that He can miraculously suspend normal cause/effect relationship at any moment. Thus a virgin woman can give birth to a male child in Palestine somewhere two centuries ago without recourse to the necessary 'Y' chromosome.

    Note to readers: this is not up for debate, I am merely stating the position to free it from the off-base description insinuated above, feel free to guffaw at it all you want.

    And this is all at the Newtonian level - which is where Ibn Rushd (ra) and the rationalists were operating. Once you get down to the quantum level (I remember my intro to quantum theory in UCLA - blew my mind), all bets are off. Just try assuming a pre-determinant cause and effect - too bad, you are dealing with probabilities of results - nothing is set in stone. Inside the atom, Imam Ghazali (ra) and the Ashari-Maturidis get top billing:
    "Further, they agree that events in the world ate not strictly predictable. Both accept the idea that unexpected, unpredictable things can and do occur. According to Al-Ghazali's explanation, God is omnipotent and involved in the world at every moment and can, therefore, cause anything to happen. The Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum theory says that it is impossible to predict the exact behavior of an object based on physical laws. As a result, while one might expect a lead ball to fall when it is dropped, there is a definite possibility that the ball will rise instead. The independent existence of teal objects is doubted by both al-Ghazali and the Copenhagen Interpretation. "
    Causality Then and Now: Al-Ghazali and Quantum Theory
    http://www.ghazali.org/articles/harding-V10N2-Summer-93.pdf

    "As the theory of the atom, quantum mechanics is perhaps the most successful theory in the history of science. It enables physicists, chemists, and technicians to calculate and predict the outcome of a vast number of experiments and to create new and advanced technology based on the insight into the behavior of atomic objects. But it is also a theory that challenges our imagination. It seems to violate some fundamental principles of classical physics, principles that eventually have become a part of western common sense since the rise of the modern worldview in the Renaissance."
    "Apparently, we are living in a quantum world since everything is constituted by atomic and subatomic particles. Hence classical physics seems merely to be a useful approximation to a world which is quantum mechanical on all scales. Such a view, which many modern physicists support, can be called quantum fundamentalism (Zinkernagel forthcoming). It can be defined as a position containing two components: (1) everything in the Universe is fundamentally of quantum nature (the ontological component); and (2) everything in the Universe is ultimately describable in quantum mechanical terms (the epistemological component)"
    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-copenhagen/

    Peace.

    I really appreciate your excursion into quantum mechanics but FYI I do have books by Michio Kaku or Greene (namely Hidden Reality), among many. But me, being a very simple man and living by “approximations” and sometimes generalizations, this is by far more important (and pressing) manifestations of Islam, than any intellectual exercises:

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Dr. Kaku is awesome and his articles and even videos are generally very accessible to the majority of the public. So I'm confused, if you are already well-aware of the (post-1930's) problems in the assumptions of the foundations of deterministic causality - why do you keep bringing this up as a tool to try to point out Muslim backwardness (this is the second thread where you have done so)?

    ...I'm not really expecting an answer, this is more rhetorical than anything...

    As far as the video, meh...you want me to validate that stupidity? Kick them out! Thank God it is Europe, hopefully there will simply be deportations and not pogroms.

    Anyway, you have my respect and thanks for keeping it civil.

    May God preserve you and yours.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    While there is no doubt a great number of Hindus were killed in the invasions and many temples sacked - when did the Turkic steppe warriors ever play with kid gloves in this regard? There were Hindus involved in the invasions from the beginning:
    T"he position of Hindu generals, soldiers, and scholars at the Ghaznavid court is also significant. Even Mahmud, the iconoclast, had a contingent of Hindu officers and soldiers. He richly rewarded at least one Sanskrit poet, and had Hindu pandits at his court. He also issued coins with Sanskrit inscriptions. The Hindu position seems to have improved greatly in the days of his successor, Masud."
    http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00islamlinks/ikram/part1_02.html

    Alas, you come up with your nonsense again:


    Just about all Muslims from India/Pakistan have ancestors who were Hindu. Who were forcibly converted to Islam.
     
    BS - cite your sources.

    "Even though Islam was often strongly supported by the state, the rapid growth of Muslim population was mainly due to the missionary activity of Sufi orders, particularly the Chishtiyah, Suhrawardiyah, Qadiriyah and Naqshbandiyah."
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XbGLOaNVKHoJ:www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t253/e18+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    Which is why, to this day, Hindus visit and seek blessings at the tombs of the Sufi saints (this is just one):
    "This 16th century mausoleum to a Sufi saint sees more Hindus than Muslims flocking to it every day. So it has been for centuries."
    https://maptia.com/bijoyv/stories/the-islamic-shrine-where-hindus-pray

    Peace.

    The Hindus of India look like the Muslims of India/Pakistan so most Muslims there are derived from forcible conversions of Hindus. Go ahead if you like and give me your percentages of today’s Muslims in the Indo-Pak region who are Muslim due to Sufi (lol) preachers and to forcible conversions. What is your breakdown on this?

    And what a shame that ol buccaneer Muhammad did not have any Sufi preachers to help him convert the Christians of the Middle East to Mohammedanism in the 7th century. So so much blood letting could have been avoided as followers of Jesus surely would have gravitated to the so called final prophet.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    And this, boys and girls, is why we need to bring logic into our educational system as a core subject. Thankfully, I was exposed to it as a CS&E major.

    The Hindus of India look like the Muslims of India/Pakistan so most Muslims there are derived from forcible conversions of Hindus.
     
    The underlying assumption being that a person switches phenotype if they convert willingly versus if they are forced...I'll let everyone think on that one for a bit.

    What is your breakdown on this?
     
    Rough estimate...based on all academic readings on the subject with the following highlights:
    1) Shafi'i school being replaced by the Hanafi in administration
    2) Well documented work of the many Sufi teachers and orders
    3) The Afghan invasions coming very late in the game (mid 18th century) - and they were known for forced conversions
    4) The fact that an overwhelming number of Indians chose to remain Hindu even under complete Mughal domination

    A super-majority (of those that converted) are easily willing converts (now many of these would definitely be those who converted to gain a better social position or be relieved of tax burden). For this generalization, I appeal to this work "The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760" by Richard Eaton - the contents of it are online here (especially his discussion and analysis of the four theories of conversion in India):
    http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft067n99v9&chunk.id=ch05&toc.depth=1&toc.id=ch05&brand=eschol

    "If Islamization had ever been a function of military or political force, one would expect that those areas exposed most intensively and over the longest period to rule by Muslim dynasties—that is, those that were most fully exposed to the “sword”—would today contain the greatest number of Muslims. Yet the opposite is the case, as those regions where the most dramatic Islamization occurred, such as eastern Bengal or western Punjab, lay on the fringes of Indo-Muslim rule, where the “sword” was weakest, and where brute force could have exerted the least influence. In such regions the first accurate census reports put the Muslim population at between 70 and 90 percent of the total, whereas in the heartland of Muslim rule in the upper Gangetic Plain—the domain of the Delhi Fort and the Taj Mahal, where Muslim regimes had ruled the most intensively and for the longest period of time—the Muslim population ranged from only 10 to 15 percent. In other words, in the subcontinent as a whole there is an inverse relationship between the degree of Muslim political penetration and the degree of Islamization. Even within Bengal this principle holds true."

    did not have any Sufi preachers
     
    His companions were the original Sufis, you can try to find any Sufi order that doesn't trace their chain back to one or more of them.

    Peace.

    I'll answer my own question; the Uwaisi order does (kind of) trace itself back to a man who was their contemporary, but never met the Prophet (pbuh) in person.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Clyde
    I have chosen my sides. I am pro-Israel and pro-Western civilization. You can have your Iran and your Muslims. You can have your wacky Sunnis and Shiites. You can have your mass murdering ISIS killing and raping the Christians of Iraq and Syria. Hillary will not be Israel friendly no matter how much she gets in US Jewish donor money so go vote for her. This is my advice to all you Israel obsessives.
    DJT will be neutral on Israel to pro-Israel. Trump is more difficult to predict but he wants us out of the Middle East so this is not Israel helpful.
    You must choose between 1.7 billion brainwashed, Muhammad worshiping Muslims and 17 million Jews who have gentile controlling mind rays at their disposal.
    So which side are you on boys which side are you on?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iAIM02kv0g

    Clyde, I don’t know what you are smoking but your facts are all wrong. The cause of destruction and mayhem in the middle east is not Iran but the Israel and the United States. Israel is the biggest terrorist state. They have been terrorizing Palestinians for the more than 50 years. They have killing Palestinians and Iranians (engineers and scientists) all over the world. The Al-Qaeda and now the ISIS were created by the US and Israel. These groups are supported by the US, Israel and funded by Saudi Arabia. US is the biggest exporter of terrorism along with its surrogates Israel and Saudi Arabia.

    You also have absolutely no knowledge about Islam and the Muslims. Unfortunately, the only people who are brainwashed are the American people. They have been totally brainwashed by Israel and its supporters (AIPAC, etc.), that is why they continue to die for a country who couldn’t care less about them (think USS Liberty).

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Andrei Martyanov

    Basically your entire argument boils down to
     
    "It is legitimate to judge event by the outcome for it is the soundest criterion"(c) Carl Von Clausewitz, Vom Kriege. This method is also known, much earlier than Vom Kriege was written, from a somewhat ancient history:

    "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

    Matthew 7:16-20King James Version (KJV)

    Ahh, this damn Christian determinism with their haram cause and effect. No wonder Muslims strive to get their hands on those Infidels' achievements, because they cannot produce those on their own no matter how they try. Then they get frustrated and... we know the rest of the story. I deliberately mentioned here such words as Kondopoga and Sagra.

    Sigh…you know, you have some very solid criticisms and then you bring out this straw-man nonsense based on Mr. Reilly totally misunderstanding an issue he has zero expertise in.

    determinism with their haram cause and effect

    I studied aqeedah (Islamic creed) under a mufti who was a direct student of the late Damascene scholar Shaykh Adib Kallas (ra) a remarkable theologian who was a master of this science (so I know a bit about what we believe): http://seekershub.org/blog/2009/10/shaykh-adib-kallas-died-today-october-21-2009-one-of-the-foremost-scholars-of-our-times/

    You are bringing out nonsense that Muslims deny observable cause and effect – what the Sunni Orthodox deny is that causality that exists outside the will of God in objects (in and of themselves or by their very nature). Thus, the belief is, while indeed through His omnipotence God creates both the cause and the effect and fuses the two together – through His wisdom He allows it to follow a usual pattern – while being able to break with the pattern at any time. What does this mean in practice? Not much, a Muslim chemist will carry on his work and observing that one chemical compound interacts predictably with another in a measured way, while believing internally that God is the true cause behind everything his eyes see and that He can miraculously suspend normal cause/effect relationship at any moment. Thus a virgin woman can give birth to a male child in Palestine somewhere two centuries ago without recourse to the necessary ‘Y’ chromosome.

    Note to readers: this is not up for debate, I am merely stating the position to free it from the off-base description insinuated above, feel free to guffaw at it all you want.

    And this is all at the Newtonian level – which is where Ibn Rushd (ra) and the rationalists were operating. Once you get down to the quantum level (I remember my intro to quantum theory in UCLA – blew my mind), all bets are off. Just try assuming a pre-determinant cause and effect – too bad, you are dealing with probabilities of results – nothing is set in stone. Inside the atom, Imam Ghazali (ra) and the Ashari-Maturidis get top billing:
    “Further, they agree that events in the world ate not strictly predictable. Both accept the idea that unexpected, unpredictable things can and do occur. According to Al-Ghazali’s explanation, God is omnipotent and involved in the world at every moment and can, therefore, cause anything to happen. The Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum theory says that it is impossible to predict the exact behavior of an object based on physical laws. As a result, while one might expect a lead ball to fall when it is dropped, there is a definite possibility that the ball will rise instead. The independent existence of teal objects is doubted by both al-Ghazali and the Copenhagen Interpretation. ”
    Causality Then and Now: Al-Ghazali and Quantum Theory

    http://www.ghazali.org/articles/harding-V10N2-Summer-93.pdf

    “As the theory of the atom, quantum mechanics is perhaps the most successful theory in the history of science. It enables physicists, chemists, and technicians to calculate and predict the outcome of a vast number of experiments and to create new and advanced technology based on the insight into the behavior of atomic objects. But it is also a theory that challenges our imagination. It seems to violate some fundamental principles of classical physics, principles that eventually have become a part of western common sense since the rise of the modern worldview in the Renaissance.”
    “Apparently, we are living in a quantum world since everything is constituted by atomic and subatomic particles. Hence classical physics seems merely to be a useful approximation to a world which is quantum mechanical on all scales. Such a view, which many modern physicists support, can be called quantum fundamentalism (Zinkernagel forthcoming). It can be defined as a position containing two components: (1) everything in the Universe is fundamentally of quantum nature (the ontological component); and (2) everything in the Universe is ultimately describable in quantum mechanical terms (the epistemological component)”

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-copenhagen/

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    I really appreciate your excursion into quantum mechanics but FYI I do have books by Michio Kaku or Greene (namely Hidden Reality), among many. But me, being a very simple man and living by "approximations" and sometimes generalizations, this is by far more important (and pressing) manifestations of Islam, than any intellectual exercises:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2hMYOYbC-4

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    Yes, the notion that the pre-Islamic Arabs were savages should be put to rest, look at Petra and Mada'in Saleh; well the beduin probably weren't very cultured, but according to Herodotus they had a sense of honor at least. Interestingly, the Byzantine iconoclasm was likely inspired by the Muslims: "if we're losing to them, maybe we should adopt it?" It was a major factor in the drift of eastern and western churches, since the mostly illiterate western population needed biblical-inspired imagery in the Pope's estimation. Think of all the great Orthodox icons and mosaics that were lost, and then the Calvinists and other early Protestants did the same in the West a millennium later.

    Hey Marcus,

    We studied this episode in my Byzantine History course and yes, there is evidence that it was inspired by the edict of Caliph Yazid II – which was repealed by his successors:

    http://lingualeo.com/es/jungle/the-iconoclastic-edict-caliph-yazid-ii-ad-721-by-aa-vasiliev-432970#/page/1

    Think of all the great Orthodox icons and mosaics that were lost

    Correct and Daesh is carrying out a destruction that lays to waste centuries worth of work of cooperative human endeavor to preserve these things.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    Of course that wasn't the only instance of Christian destruction, there was the Reformation and the anti-pagan persecution that looted or destroyed temples. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousbench/2014/07/the-breaking-of-images/ However, I don't think you can compare it to Mohammedanism (or Judaism) since Christianity isn't legalistic by nature, its antihuman elements aren't codified as integral to the faith, hence great sculpture and portraiture (let alone music) could be reborn in Europe, but never in the Muslim world. Christians could eventually exhume the great Greco-Roman civilizations and then those of the rest of the world to light for all to admire, whereas most Muslims are ignorant or even contemptuous of their direct ancestors in Egypt or what's now Pakistan.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    I believe there were fatwas issued against her, which fits the Muslim tradition going back to Muhammad. I'm not a fan of feminism, but countries like Bangladesh certainly don't need baby booms, a lot of the problems in the Third World are probably due to large populations straining resources and pushing down wages. The Muslims of the Indian subcontinent are heirs to the great traditions of the Dharmic civilizations, maybe they can rediscover these. Like Anwar Shaikh (Pakistani who became a Hindu) said

    The day Muhammad bin Qasim, entered Sindh as a conqueror, must rank as the most ominous, odious and outrageous moment in the history of India, whose proud, pious and powerful traditions have been the torch-bearer of world civilisation. The Indians, used to enjoying the warmth of ahimsa, were stunned by the violence that the Arab raiders displayed in robbing the rich and seducing the indigenous damsels. Yet the irony was that they did all this in the name of the Most Compassionate and Just Allah, who counts these felonies as acts of fairness when they are committed to torture the unbelievers.
     
    http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Islamic_Onslaught.htm

    Hey Marcus,

    There may have indeed been fatwas against her, but are you saying there was actually a fatwa from a legitimate qualified scholar that stated she could be killed with impunity by anyone – I would have to see this to believe it. Or are you saying the fatwa was calling on the government to stop and/or punish her – this is more likely. You have to keep in mind what fatwas are; they are juristic opinions coming from a body of scholars that fill a quasi-legislative/judicial role in society. Just as in our society, a judge can set down a judgement, but it must be executed by those with executive prerogative/privileges. The connection is explained by Mufti Musa Furber (db), with the example of a fatwa issued for wild-life protection in Indonesia:
    “Indonesia made a splash in 2014 when it issued a wildlife protection fatwa. A fatwa is, by its very nature, a non-binding opinion. A wildlife protection fatwa means nothing if it is not gazetted into legislation and then enforced. And it needs to be proactively enforced in order to be truly preventative – otherwise, it can be shrugged off as a business fine or risk.”

    http://musafurber.com/2016/08/27/indonesian-man-arrested-650-pangolins-found-dead-freezers/

    For instance, historically, the Shafi’i scholars were formulating fatwa after fatwa on matters which were simply ignored by the ruling Abbasid authorities in lieu of the fatwas of the Hanafi school which they favored.

    The Muslims of the Indian subcontinent are heirs to the great traditions of the Dharmic civilizations, maybe they can rediscover these.

    Correct, much of the meditation, attainment of spiritual states through asceticism and rigor has already been absorbed into Sufi practices as much as can be allowed for. We discussed Imam Biruni (ra) and his balanced approach to viewing and evaluating these Dharmic traditions. This needs to be revived. I don’t think many Muslims will convert to Hinduism (even less than any movement from Christianity toward Hinduism), you’ll get a rare one here and there. I’ve personally met Hindu converts to Islam, never met one going the other way.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    Even defining Hinduism as a religion is tricky, you could say that all indigenous traditions of India were "Hindu," so there's never been any doctrine of conversion or apostasy. A Hindu could conceivably venerate Jesus, Muhammad, Moses etc., and indeed many have. The Rig Veda says "Truth is One, though the sages know it variously." However in the late 19th century some nationalist-inspired movements formed which are trying to bring Muslims and Christians back into the fold, but it's an uphill battle. The tolerant nature of paganism and polytheism puts it at disadvantage vis-a-vis monopolizing and aggressive Abrahamic faiths. Transition to Christianity might be easier for most Muslims outside of parts of the subcontinent, while I oppose all Abrahamic religions, I consider it the lesser of two evils. It's hard to gain much traction with laws against proselytization and apostasy in most Muslim countries though.
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  • @Clyde

    The Indians, used to enjoying the warmth of ahimsa, were stunned by the violence that the Arab raiders displayed in robbing the rich and seducing the indigenous damsels. Yet the irony was that they did all this in the name of the Most Compassionate and Just Allah, who counts these felonies as acts of fairness when they are committed to torture the unbelievers.
     
    Vegetarian grazing animals are preyed upon by the lions and other carnivorous predators. The dharmic civilizations you speak of were/are vegetarian or mostly vegetarian. The invading Muslim forces were carnivorous to omnivorous. They were the predators upon the Hindus of India and this is how large parts of India were turned Muslim during wars and battles that lasted a few centuries where 80 million Hindus were killed and numerous Hindu shrines and temples destroyed. 80 million Hindus sounds high. Prolly more like 40 million were killed off, ethnically cleansed for Imperialist Muslim lebensraum.
    Just about all Muslims from India/Pakistan have ancestors who were Hindu. Who were forcibly converted to Islam. Talha has previously stated that this is not the case with his ancestors.

    While there is no doubt a great number of Hindus were killed in the invasions and many temples sacked – when did the Turkic steppe warriors ever play with kid gloves in this regard? There were Hindus involved in the invasions from the beginning:
    T”he position of Hindu generals, soldiers, and scholars at the Ghaznavid court is also significant. Even Mahmud, the iconoclast, had a contingent of Hindu officers and soldiers. He richly rewarded at least one Sanskrit poet, and had Hindu pandits at his court. He also issued coins with Sanskrit inscriptions. The Hindu position seems to have improved greatly in the days of his successor, Masud.”

    http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00islamlinks/ikram/part1_02.html

    Alas, you come up with your nonsense again:

    Just about all Muslims from India/Pakistan have ancestors who were Hindu. Who were forcibly converted to Islam.

    BS – cite your sources.

    “Even though Islam was often strongly supported by the state, the rapid growth of Muslim population was mainly due to the missionary activity of Sufi orders, particularly the Chishtiyah, Suhrawardiyah, Qadiriyah and Naqshbandiyah.”

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XbGLOaNVKHoJ:www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t253/e18+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    Which is why, to this day, Hindus visit and seek blessings at the tombs of the Sufi saints (this is just one):
    “This 16th century mausoleum to a Sufi saint sees more Hindus than Muslims flocking to it every day. So it has been for centuries.”

    https://maptia.com/bijoyv/stories/the-islamic-shrine-where-hindus-pray

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Clyde
    The Hindus of India look like the Muslims of India/Pakistan so most Muslims there are derived from forcible conversions of Hindus. Go ahead if you like and give me your percentages of today's Muslims in the Indo-Pak region who are Muslim due to Sufi (lol) preachers and to forcible conversions. What is your breakdown on this?

    And what a shame that ol buccaneer Muhammad did not have any Sufi preachers to help him convert the Christians of the Middle East to Mohammedanism in the 7th century. So so much blood letting could have been avoided as followers of Jesus surely would have gravitated to the so called final prophet.

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  • @KA
    "Should Duterte win in 2016, he would be the first occupant of Malacañang Palace who could claim to represent the country’s Tri-People – Christians, Muslims and Lumads.

    While Duterte is a devout Catholic and his father, former Governor Vicente Duterte, was a true-blue Cebuano, his mother, the late Soledad Roa Duterte, had both Maranao and Camayo blood in her.

    The Maranaos are among the tribes in the Southern Philippines living in the periphery or vicinity of Lake Lanao who embraced Islam while the Camayos are the tribal people of Surigao and Agusan.

    The Duterte matriarch was born in Cabadbaran, Agusan del Norte to a family which had Chinese, Maranao and Camayo lineage.

    Duterte’s first-born son, Paulo, also married a Tausug-Maranao girl and his children have embraced Islam.

    “I have grandchildren who are Muslim and Christian,” Duterte once said in explaining why he would like to see an end to the conflict in the Southern Philippines.

    The blood ties to the marginalised Filipino groups could be behind the sympathy shown by Duterte to both the Muslims and the Tribal People." http://duterte.net/2015/11/29/dutertes-moro-ip-blood-and-the-search-for-peace/


    I think similar information appeared in Asia Time online

    Thanks for the links, Carthage. I sincerely hope there can be a peaceful end to this long conflict.

    Peace.

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  • @Marcus
    Maybe a more peaceful movement would attract more international support? I'm mostly neutral on the issue: but my guess is suicide bombings and such turn off would-be sympathizers. An Arab Muslim I spoke to said that the repeated defeats of progressive socialist governments by Israel were a huge factor in the rise of fundamentalism in the region.

    Hey Marcus,

    You are onto something there though. I spoke to a friend recently from Senegal. He has lived in Paris, NY, and Chicago and plans to move back to Dakar in a few years. I was surprised, but he said that Senegal was very stable and fairly clean (Transparency International (https://www.transparency.org/country/ ranks it with Italy and even better than many Eastern European countries). He said a lot of credit goes to the scholars and Sufi orders (especially Sh. Ahmadu Bamba [ra]) who resisted the French through nonviolent means and even cooperated with them at times while instilling in the people a very hard work ethic. Once the French left, the orders (the Muridiyya being the strongest) took solid root in guiding the people toward a pretty mellow and spiritual understanding of Islam – even the most non-committed person still prays five times there. He said even many of the Salafis are pretty chill over there. He also said that a lot of the people had doubts at the beginning with respect to the non-violent approach, especially since the Tijaniyyah took up arms against them (and lost, of course), but it is hard to argue with the results.

    And I totally agree with the suicide bombing – that has to stop – stat!

    Peace.

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  • KA [AKA "Carthage"] says:
    @RobinG
    OT, but here goes, and there's a Muslim angle. :)

    Obama-Duterte Blow Up: What the Corporate Media Doesn’t Get
    by Wayne Madsen, 09/09/2016

    "The breakdown in relations between the Philippines, a former and much-abused American colony, and the United States is based on renewed Philippines nationalism, a disgust by Duterte for the selective human rights agenda of the Obama administration, and the Philippines leader’s antipathy for those schooled in Muslim beliefs in neighboring Indonesia.........."

    “Should Duterte win in 2016, he would be the first occupant of Malacañang Palace who could claim to represent the country’s Tri-People – Christians, Muslims and Lumads.

    While Duterte is a devout Catholic and his father, former Governor Vicente Duterte, was a true-blue Cebuano, his mother, the late Soledad Roa Duterte, had both Maranao and Camayo blood in her.

    The Maranaos are among the tribes in the Southern Philippines living in the periphery or vicinity of Lake Lanao who embraced Islam while the Camayos are the tribal people of Surigao and Agusan.

    The Duterte matriarch was born in Cabadbaran, Agusan del Norte to a family which had Chinese, Maranao and Camayo lineage.

    Duterte’s first-born son, Paulo, also married a Tausug-Maranao girl and his children have embraced Islam.

    “I have grandchildren who are Muslim and Christian,” Duterte once said in explaining why he would like to see an end to the conflict in the Southern Philippines.

    The blood ties to the marginalised Filipino groups could be behind the sympathy shown by Duterte to both the Muslims and the Tribal People.” http://duterte.net/2015/11/29/dutertes-moro-ip-blood-and-the-search-for-peace/

    I think similar information appeared in Asia Time online

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Thanks for the links, Carthage. I sincerely hope there can be a peaceful end to this long conflict.

    Peace.
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  • KA [AKA "Carthage"] says:
    @Clyde
    I have chosen my sides. I am pro-Israel and pro-Western civilization. You can have your Iran and your Muslims. You can have your wacky Sunnis and Shiites. You can have your mass murdering ISIS killing and raping the Christians of Iraq and Syria. Hillary will not be Israel friendly no matter how much she gets in US Jewish donor money so go vote for her. This is my advice to all you Israel obsessives.
    DJT will be neutral on Israel to pro-Israel. Trump is more difficult to predict but he wants us out of the Middle East so this is not Israel helpful.
    You must choose between 1.7 billion brainwashed, Muhammad worshiping Muslims and 17 million Jews who have gentile controlling mind rays at their disposal.
    So which side are you on boys which side are you on?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iAIM02kv0g

    1 America’s response to the 9/11 attacks augmented rather than defeated the jihadist threat, with the consequences of the Iraq war now being felt in terror-scarred France, President Francois Hollande said Sunday, as the US marked the 15th anniversary of the devastating attacks in New York and Washington, DC.

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/us-response-to-911-increased-global-terror-threat-hollande/

    In a late-night address to the nation, French President Francois Hollande linked the deadly “terrorist attack” in Nice to the conflict in Iraq and Syria — and said France will intensify its military operations there in the aftermath of today’s tragedy.

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/french-president-links-nice-attack-iraq-syria-conflict/story?id=40597252

    Who intentionally messed up post war Iraq ?

    2 “First, we didn’t invade Iraq to bring democracy — but once we overthrew Saddam, we had a view of what should follow,” Rice responded. “If Don and the Pentagon had done their job (after claiming the rights to lead post-war rebuilding—things might have turned out differently).”

    Powell replied by seconding Rice’s critique, saying “the boys in the band were brain dead.”

    “Doug and Paul claims they had a plan (turn Iraq and our Army over to Chalibi) and leave,” Powell wrote, appearing to reference Bush administration officials Doug Feith, Paul Wolfowitz, and the late Iraqi politician Ahmed Chalabi, who died last year.

    “43 knew what had to be done,” Powell continued, referring to President George W. Bush, “specifically rejected the Chalibi crowd and as you say the boys in the band were brain dead.”

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/christophermassie/rice-if-rumsfeld-pentagon-had-done-their-job-iraq-might-have?utm_term=.rkkPaQJKzg#.py0kW3Ql1b

    4 Didn’t Micheal Ledeen ask for more chaos and wasn’t it him who demand that the cauldron of destruction be unleashed on ME as fast as possible when chaos was predicted by sane people?

    3 Who ordered to foment mess Iraq ? We should ask Brenenr .

    He should call Hollande and let him know how disappointed he was and how Hollande just provided succor to terror. Spencer and Geller would be very upset with Hollande now- how is it possible For Hollande to ignore all their pleas writings and education?

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    Yes, Micheal Ledeen, of Operation Gladio fame.
    Ledeed, similar to the Kagans (see their exploits in Ukraine) has never seen any problems in embracing Nazism.

    "The name Gladio, (or ‘Sword’ in Italian) was technically the name given to their operations in Italy, but has since come by extension to stand for the phenomenon as a whole. Evidence [was] meticulously documented by Swiss historian Daniele Ganser in his 2004 book "NATO’s Secret Armies"...The evidence contained in Ganser’s book, of terrorism directed against the people by secret armies funded and organised by NATO and answerable to deep state elements within NATO, MI6 and the CIA rather than the respective governments is so shocking that the initial reaction of most people would be to reject it....
    The terrorist bombings proved to be a means by which Pentagon planners were able to take their own (imaginary or delusional) fears about the rise of the Left and turn them into very real and concrete fears for the populace....Among the most far-reaching findings on the secret war, as seen in the analysis, ranges the fact that the stay-behind network had served as a tool to spread fear amongst the population also in the absence of an invasion. The secret armies in some cases functioned as an almost perfect manipulation system that transported the fears of high-ranking military officers in the Pentagon and NATO to the populations in Western Europe. ... brutality and terror was employed to control populations on both sides of the Iron Curtain...."
    https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Operation_Gladio

    Yellow Cake and Black Shirt: Michael Ledeen linked to "Gladio"
    http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4081269
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  • @RobinG
    Hi Sam,

    This is carryover from previous thread. It's J-Street kind of stuff, but, having to make a choice I put it on the positive stack.

    http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/israeli-figures-ask-diaspora-to-help-end-the-occupation/
    Amongst those making the call are high-ranking ex-officers and envoys, ministers, authors, artists and professors

    Yeah it is happening slowly. I had noted the IDF general staff’s mood previously:

    http://www.unz.com/article/fifty-one-foreign-service-officers-cant-be-wrong/?highlight=IDF#comment-1464000

    The key is to not elicit a sharp reaction from Netanyahu but chip away. My point re: 1948 was simple. If the objective is to get the Pals a livable deal, start with 1967, not 1948, [which does not preclude compensation for those displaced in 1948, only that arguments for a RoR won't be of any use]

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    • Replies: @iffen
    start with 1967, not 1948

    What is special about 1967? Why not 2016? Why not 2025? If one accepts the 1967 borders, what is the rationale for not accepting "any" additional annexations at any time, including the future?
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  • @RobinG
    OT, but here goes, and there's a Muslim angle. :)

    Obama-Duterte Blow Up: What the Corporate Media Doesn’t Get
    by Wayne Madsen, 09/09/2016

    "The breakdown in relations between the Philippines, a former and much-abused American colony, and the United States is based on renewed Philippines nationalism, a disgust by Duterte for the selective human rights agenda of the Obama administration, and the Philippines leader’s antipathy for those schooled in Muslim beliefs in neighboring Indonesia.........."

    Hi Robin,
    Nationalism is sweeping over the globe.

    I was at a dinner last Monday where Karl Rove was the invited speaker. He answered someone’s question re: Trump’s ME stance thus: If Trump wins, U.S Embassy in Israel moves to Jerusalem. Bluntly, he noted it as a pledge to Adelson.
    [I hope to attend a NYEcon club lunch tomorrow with Trump as speaker, and pose the same question to him directly, knowing full well that I am going to be the recipient of a bit of wrath from some in attendance; they know my sentiments.]

    To your remark: “Sam, your yearning for peace is meaningless if it is a Pax Judaica, a pacification by suppression or expulsion, but I don’t think you mean it that way. Too bad you’re so resigned to old mistakes and injustices.”

    You’re right I don’t mean it that way at all. No resignation on my part, more like choosing the timing and terrain of my battles for better odds.

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