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 All Comments / On "Bangladesh"
    My current piece at Asia Times, Balochistan Is Not Bangladesh, looks at the 1971 establishment of Bangladesh in context of Balochi independence advocates’ imploring Modi to do Balochistan a solid like Indira Gandhi did for East Pakistan. Here’s a video of an independence advocate ringing the bell on Indian TV: Long story short, there aren’t...
  • @anon
    Balochis need to be very careful with India. Indian ruling class has a proven history of selling out their supposed friends to the very enemies for cheap price. Just ask Tamils in Sri Lanka.

    That’s true – but Israel has a similar history selling and killing fellow Jews.

    Romania-born Radu Ioanid, director Washington Holocaust Museum, in his 2005 book, The Ransom of the Jew, claims that Romania sold nearly 235,000 of its 350,000 Jews to Israel during the period between 1960-1989 as commodity barter and hard cash in dollars. The trade was suspended after the pro-Israel communist dictator, Nicolae Ceausescu and his wife Elena were executed by firing squad on Christmas Day 1989 on the orders of a military tribunal set up by leaders of Romania’s bloody revolution in December 1989 …..

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/11/20/when-romania-sold-235000-jews-to-israel/

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  • Doesn’t matter either way to me.

    Goldsmith is such an obvious surname. Mayhaps she has no known maternal line; all but most except the ultra-orthodox (not the settler terrorists, the real ultra-orthodox Jews) are quite willing to *appear* to accept someone well off and in a position of influence without that.

    Anyhoo, my brief lines in the country song intro work well and, I checked, she was certainly a bottle-blonde, is not right now.

    Don’t take a light post so srsly!

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  • @Che Guava
    I was just going to hit the 'agree' or 'LOL' button, but had to clear my cookies for another site.

    The below is to be read as a country song and I should work harder on it, but too tired, a good chorus does not readily come to mind.

    Imran hero in cricket,

    could really wield a bat,

    bowling, sure be fielding too,

    no slouch at any of that.

    Then he met Jemimah,

    his bottle-blonde Jewish queen,

    once she'd popped some offspring out,

    she was really mean.

    Jemima only has one Jewish grandparent.

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  • @jimmyriddle
    "Indira Gandhi died at the hands of a Hindu woman"

    Nope. She was killed by her Sikh bodyguards.

    I think that by “Indira Gandhi”, Rehmat meant Rajiv Gandhi.

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  • @Rehmat
    Let us not forget Pornography was invented by Jews.

    Let us not forget Israel is the only country where sex-slavery still practiced.

    Professor Joshua N. Lambert ( University of Massachusetts) in 2013 book Unclean Lips: Obscenity, Jews, and American Culture, admits that Jews dominate porn industry. Lambert claims that he was influenced by Jewish authors, such as, Philip Roth, Adele Wiseman, Edward De Grazia and Walter Kendrick, who were ” so obsessed with Jewishness and sex“.

    In 2002, when Ramallah was under Jewish army siege, Israeli army captured three of the four Palestinian TV stations. It used these TV stations to broadcast pornographic movies to Palestinian households in order to demoralized Muslims and Christian living in the West Bank.

    When the US and its absurd allies occupied Iraq for Israel in 2003, Baghdad was flooded with porn DVDs and books within six months.

    Jay A. Gertzman, author of Bookleggers and Smuthounds:The Trade in Erotica, 1920-1940 (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999), says: “Jews were prominent in the distribution of gallantiana (fiction on erotic themes and books of dirty jokes and ballads), avant-garde sexually explicit novels, sex pulps, sexology, and flagitious materials“.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/02/17/pornography-the-jewish-secret-wmd/

    Israel and Muslim countries, you mean. We personally know women from the Philippines who worked in Saudi and UAE and were physically struck, threatened with violence if they left their job or complained, groped and sexually harassed and kissed and propositioned lewdly by their “employers.” Good Muslims all, those employers.

    You guys are so similar to your nemesis the Jews, it’s kinda funny you won’t see it.

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  • @Rehmat
    Here you go again moron - quoting lies from a Hindutva/Zionist propaganda site.

    Avoiding to waste my time discussing anything with the 9-ft thick Wailing Wall - can you explain why Indian calls Brahmins as JEWS OF INDIA and not Muslims?

    If one read Hindu religion and Hindu history from some objective source, he will find out that like Judaism - sex, pornography and nudity is significant part of Hindu culture. Not long ago, Hindu widow was burned alive (Sati) along with her dead husband; young virgin girls still dance half naked in temples to please Hindu gods, and the majority of ancient temple walls are decorated with pornographic material. Both Muslim and British rulers tried to stop such cruel Hindu traditions, but failed....

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/06/07/indias-shameful-rape-and-caste-society/

    ‘Whore’ is adopted from the Islamic ‘houri’, enough said right there.

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  • @Rehmat
    Let us not forget Pornography was invented by Jews.

    Let us not forget Israel is the only country where sex-slavery still practiced.

    Professor Joshua N. Lambert ( University of Massachusetts) in 2013 book Unclean Lips: Obscenity, Jews, and American Culture, admits that Jews dominate porn industry. Lambert claims that he was influenced by Jewish authors, such as, Philip Roth, Adele Wiseman, Edward De Grazia and Walter Kendrick, who were ” so obsessed with Jewishness and sex“.

    In 2002, when Ramallah was under Jewish army siege, Israeli army captured three of the four Palestinian TV stations. It used these TV stations to broadcast pornographic movies to Palestinian households in order to demoralized Muslims and Christian living in the West Bank.

    When the US and its absurd allies occupied Iraq for Israel in 2003, Baghdad was flooded with porn DVDs and books within six months.

    Jay A. Gertzman, author of Bookleggers and Smuthounds:The Trade in Erotica, 1920-1940 (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999), says: “Jews were prominent in the distribution of gallantiana (fiction on erotic themes and books of dirty jokes and ballads), avant-garde sexually explicit novels, sex pulps, sexology, and flagitious materials“.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/02/17/pornography-the-jewish-secret-wmd/

    It used these TV stations to broadcast pornographic movies to Palestinian households in order to demoralized Muslims and Christian living in the West Bank.

    This is one example of the small portions where Rehmat *does* state important truths.

    I distinctly recall coverage of the tactic in the international press at the time, mainly from the US and Israel.

    Of course, the gross hypocrisy of most young Muslims made it doubly effective.

    … then there are the tales of same-sex Israeli conscripts taking E and tupping each other.

    If all of those qualified for citizenship are also taken into consideration, Israel is the world superpower of porn.

    … and their output is the least watchable, pure ugliness most of the time.

    I have little doubt that Bronstein (Trotsky) was a porn actor during his NY sojourn.

    This is not an outlandish claim, there is good backing for it.

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  • The Balochistan separation from Pakistan is not Modi’s invention. It’s like Syria – an old Israeli projected.

    The Jewish hatred toward Muslims of Indian sub-continent goes back to even when both Pakistan and Israel were not established. In December, 1946, the leader of All India Muslim League met the Grand Mufti of Palestine in Cairo and assured him that the Muslims of the Indian sub-continent will never accept the British partition of Palestine between unwanted European Jews and the Native Muslim and Christian Arabs.

    Pakistan’s part of Balochistan has great strategic value for USrael – due to its Gwadar port, which is eyed by Americans to use as terminal for the Caspian Sea oil reserves and distablize Islamic Iran’s Balochi region for the benefit of Zionist entity.

    According to CIA ‘Fact Sheet’ – there could be 10-15 million Balochs – 70% of them live inside Pakistan’s Balochistan province, while the rest are divided between Iran and Afghanistan.

    On February 8, 2012 – Israel-First Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif), introduced a resolution in US House of Representatives calling upon Islamabad to recognize its province of Balochistan as an “independent state”.

    In 2006 – Israelis were able to sell their old imperialist dream of Eretz Israel to a Blochi tribal chief, Mir Suleman Dawood Khan, who declared himself “King of Balochistan” and set up a government-in-exile in occupied Jerusalem. The aims of this group include the unification of all Baloch lands currently occupied by “Pakistan, Iran, and Afghanistan” – and also to find common bonds between Baloch and Israel – being “Semite people” – interestingly though more than 90% of 12.7 million world Jews are themselves not Semites, but Asiatic Khazarian Turk or North African Berbers!

    https://rehmat1.com/2012/06/19/zionist-symposium-on-balochistan/

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  • @mcohen
    no remhat tell me it is not true.you are paki.really.i love paki.good goat man,they play cricket.imran kahn.what a player.and his lovely wife the lovely jemina with the jewish background.

    ah remhat what are we to do.birdie num num old chap.everytime.

    Tell me KIKE are you the filthy professor Benjamin Levin (University of Toronto), who was convicted last year for marketing child pornography?

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/05/31/jewish-professor-convicted-for-marketing-child-porn/

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  • @mcohen
    no remhat tell me it is not true.you are paki.really.i love paki.good goat man,they play cricket.imran kahn.what a player.and his lovely wife the lovely jemina with the jewish background.

    ah remhat what are we to do.birdie num num old chap.everytime.

    I was just going to hit the ‘agree’ or ‘LOL’ button, but had to clear my cookies for another site.

    The below is to be read as a country song and I should work harder on it, but too tired, a good chorus does not readily come to mind.

    Imran hero in cricket,

    could really wield a bat,

    bowling, sure be fielding too,

    no slouch at any of that.

    Then he met Jemimah,

    his bottle-blonde Jewish queen,

    once she’d popped some offspring out,

    she was really mean.

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    • Replies: @5371
    Jemima only has one Jewish grandparent.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @jimmyriddle
    "Indira Gandhi died at the hands of a Hindu woman"

    Nope. She was killed by her Sikh bodyguards.

    I was going to make much the same comment. However, I wouldn’t rule out a Hindu connection, nutter faction was boiling mad about Indira’s attempt at enforcing birth-control policies that make sense.

    The Sikh in question may well have been a patsy. Who knows? Sure as hell had nothing to do with a Hindu woman, except for the victim, Indira Ghandi.

    Rehmat comes out with so much outrageous untruth, one has to wonder if he even believes much of it. I said ‘about a third’ in a recent post, but it seems somewhat less.

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  • @Rehmat
    Let us not forget Pornography was invented by Jews.

    Let us not forget Israel is the only country where sex-slavery still practiced.

    Professor Joshua N. Lambert ( University of Massachusetts) in 2013 book Unclean Lips: Obscenity, Jews, and American Culture, admits that Jews dominate porn industry. Lambert claims that he was influenced by Jewish authors, such as, Philip Roth, Adele Wiseman, Edward De Grazia and Walter Kendrick, who were ” so obsessed with Jewishness and sex“.

    In 2002, when Ramallah was under Jewish army siege, Israeli army captured three of the four Palestinian TV stations. It used these TV stations to broadcast pornographic movies to Palestinian households in order to demoralized Muslims and Christian living in the West Bank.

    When the US and its absurd allies occupied Iraq for Israel in 2003, Baghdad was flooded with porn DVDs and books within six months.

    Jay A. Gertzman, author of Bookleggers and Smuthounds:The Trade in Erotica, 1920-1940 (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999), says: “Jews were prominent in the distribution of gallantiana (fiction on erotic themes and books of dirty jokes and ballads), avant-garde sexually explicit novels, sex pulps, sexology, and flagitious materials“.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/02/17/pornography-the-jewish-secret-wmd/

    no remhat tell me it is not true.you are paki.really.i love paki.good goat man,they play cricket.imran kahn.what a player.and his lovely wife the lovely jemina with the jewish background.

    ah remhat what are we to do.birdie num num old chap.everytime.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    I was just going to hit the 'agree' or 'LOL' button, but had to clear my cookies for another site.

    The below is to be read as a country song and I should work harder on it, but too tired, a good chorus does not readily come to mind.

    Imran hero in cricket,

    could really wield a bat,

    bowling, sure be fielding too,

    no slouch at any of that.

    Then he met Jemimah,

    his bottle-blonde Jewish queen,

    once she'd popped some offspring out,

    she was really mean.
    , @Rehmat
    Tell me KIKE are you the filthy professor Benjamin Levin (University of Toronto), who was convicted last year for marketing child pornography?

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/05/31/jewish-professor-convicted-for-marketing-child-porn/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Peter – I think you have missed the very important role played by the Nixon administration, and Kissinger in particular, and the Soviet response.

    Soviet-Chinese-US relations in general were quite important factors. The Ussuri River border war happened just before, and Nixon’s visit to China just after.

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  • @Rehmat
    Sheikh Mujibur Rehman, Zulifiqar Bhutto, and Gen. Yahya Khan all played major roles in the West-East Pakistan conflict.

    Bengali Muslim majority never wanted to separate from Pakistan. In 1970 parliamentary election Mujib's Awami League won 152 seats in the National Assembly while Bhutto's PPP won only 78 seats. However, drunk Bhutto refused to accept Mujib as the elected prime minister of the country. Khan sided with Bhutto on the promise that he would be appointed president of the country by PPP.

    At this point Mujib seeked help from Indira Gandhi that brought CIA and Mossad to play the rest of the game.

    Anyway - Nature has its own course - Mujib along with his entire family was murdered by his Bengali Generals; Bhutto was hanged as a murderer on the orders of Pakistan Supreme Court, and Indira Gandhi died at the hands of a Hindu woman. Gen. Yahya Khan died as result of booze and mistresses.

    On June 6, 2016, Bangladesh Home Minister Asaduzzaman Khan accused Israeli agents of carrying out the recent assassinations of country’s anti-Islam Hindu and other minority intellectuals and bloggers. He claimed that he has the proof of Israel’s involvement in those murders blamed on religious Muslim groups.

    Asaduzzaman Khan said that there is evidence that some foreign countries are involved in creating tension between the country’s Muslim majority (87%) and Hindus (12%) in order to destabilize the country bordering India’s West Bengal state.

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/06/20/bangladesh-israel-behind-killings-of-bloggers/

    “Indira Gandhi died at the hands of a Hindu woman”

    Nope. She was killed by her Sikh bodyguards.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    I was going to make much the same comment. However, I wouldn't rule out a Hindu connection, nutter faction was boiling mad about Indira's attempt at enforcing birth-control policies that make sense.

    The Sikh in question may well have been a patsy. Who knows? Sure as hell had nothing to do with a Hindu woman, except for the victim, Indira Ghandi.

    Rehmat comes out with so much outrageous untruth, one has to wonder if he even believes much of it. I said 'about a third' in a recent post, but it seems somewhat less.
    , @5371
    I think that by "Indira Gandhi", Rehmat meant Rajiv Gandhi.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Rehmat
    Here you go again moron - quoting lies from a Hindutva/Zionist propaganda site.

    Avoiding to waste my time discussing anything with the 9-ft thick Wailing Wall - can you explain why Indian calls Brahmins as JEWS OF INDIA and not Muslims?

    If one read Hindu religion and Hindu history from some objective source, he will find out that like Judaism - sex, pornography and nudity is significant part of Hindu culture. Not long ago, Hindu widow was burned alive (Sati) along with her dead husband; young virgin girls still dance half naked in temples to please Hindu gods, and the majority of ancient temple walls are decorated with pornographic material. Both Muslim and British rulers tried to stop such cruel Hindu traditions, but failed....

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/06/07/indias-shameful-rape-and-caste-society/

    “why Indian calls Brahmins as JEWS OF INDIA and not Muslims”

    Because Brahmins & Jews are high IQ overachievers. Indian Muslims are generally a low IQ underclass.

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  • @anon
    And Marcus , let us not forget those other virtuous Muslim practices :

    Bacha Bazzi : From the Persian , meaning boy play . A common practice in many Muslims countries including Iran ,Afghanistan and Pakistan . Forced sodomy and rape of pre pubescent boys . The boys are kidnapped , dressed up as girls with make up and etc and then held captive in mens houses , often chained to beds for the pious Muslim men to rape and sodomize at will. Jews and Hindus have much to learn from these pious Muslims .

    FGM : Female genital mutilation . A common practice in all Muslim countries . This involves slicing off a young girl genitalia ( 8-12 years old ) for the purpose of depriving her the pleasure of sex. Another pious Muslim virtue.

    Porn addiction : The highest consumption of pornography in the world is Saudi Arabia , all other Muslim countries are are close behind. Its due to their superior morals and piety , surely .

    Let us not forget Pornography was invented by Jews.

    Let us not forget Israel is the only country where sex-slavery still practiced.

    Professor Joshua N. Lambert ( University of Massachusetts) in 2013 book Unclean Lips: Obscenity, Jews, and American Culture, admits that Jews dominate porn industry. Lambert claims that he was influenced by Jewish authors, such as, Philip Roth, Adele Wiseman, Edward De Grazia and Walter Kendrick, who were ” so obsessed with Jewishness and sex“.

    In 2002, when Ramallah was under Jewish army siege, Israeli army captured three of the four Palestinian TV stations. It used these TV stations to broadcast pornographic movies to Palestinian households in order to demoralized Muslims and Christian living in the West Bank.

    When the US and its absurd allies occupied Iraq for Israel in 2003, Baghdad was flooded with porn DVDs and books within six months.

    Jay A. Gertzman, author of Bookleggers and Smuthounds:The Trade in Erotica, 1920-1940 (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999), says: “Jews were prominent in the distribution of gallantiana (fiction on erotic themes and books of dirty jokes and ballads), avant-garde sexually explicit novels, sex pulps, sexology, and flagitious materials“.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/02/17/pornography-the-jewish-secret-wmd/

    Read More
    • Replies: @mcohen
    no remhat tell me it is not true.you are paki.really.i love paki.good goat man,they play cricket.imran kahn.what a player.and his lovely wife the lovely jemina with the jewish background.

    ah remhat what are we to do.birdie num num old chap.everytime.
    , @Che Guava

    It used these TV stations to broadcast pornographic movies to Palestinian households in order to demoralized Muslims and Christian living in the West Bank.
     
    This is one example of the small portions where Rehmat *does* state important truths.

    I distinctly recall coverage of the tactic in the international press at the time, mainly from the US and Israel.

    Of course, the gross hypocrisy of most young Muslims made it doubly effective.

    ... then there are the tales of same-sex Israeli conscripts taking E and tupping each other.

    If all of those qualified for citizenship are also taken into consideration, Israel is the world superpower of porn.

    ... and their output is the least watchable, pure ugliness most of the time.

    I have little doubt that Bronstein (Trotsky) was a porn actor during his NY sojourn.

    This is not an outlandish claim, there is good backing for it.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Israel and Muslim countries, you mean. We personally know women from the Philippines who worked in Saudi and UAE and were physically struck, threatened with violence if they left their job or complained, groped and sexually harassed and kissed and propositioned lewdly by their "employers." Good Muslims all, those employers.

    You guys are so similar to your nemesis the Jews, it's kinda funny you won't see it.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Sheikh Mujibur Rehman, Zulifiqar Bhutto, and Gen. Yahya Khan all played major roles in the West-East Pakistan conflict.

    Bengali Muslim majority never wanted to separate from Pakistan. In 1970 parliamentary election Mujib’s Awami League won 152 seats in the National Assembly while Bhutto’s PPP won only 78 seats. However, drunk Bhutto refused to accept Mujib as the elected prime minister of the country. Khan sided with Bhutto on the promise that he would be appointed president of the country by PPP.

    At this point Mujib seeked help from Indira Gandhi that brought CIA and Mossad to play the rest of the game.

    Anyway – Nature has its own course – Mujib along with his entire family was murdered by his Bengali Generals; Bhutto was hanged as a murderer on the orders of Pakistan Supreme Court, and Indira Gandhi died at the hands of a Hindu woman. Gen. Yahya Khan died as result of booze and mistresses.

    On June 6, 2016, Bangladesh Home Minister Asaduzzaman Khan accused Israeli agents of carrying out the recent assassinations of country’s anti-Islam Hindu and other minority intellectuals and bloggers. He claimed that he has the proof of Israel’s involvement in those murders blamed on religious Muslim groups.

    Asaduzzaman Khan said that there is evidence that some foreign countries are involved in creating tension between the country’s Muslim majority (87%) and Hindus (12%) in order to destabilize the country bordering India’s West Bengal state.

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/06/20/bangladesh-israel-behind-killings-of-bloggers/

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    • Replies: @jimmyriddle
    "Indira Gandhi died at the hands of a Hindu woman"

    Nope. She was killed by her Sikh bodyguards.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    Sati was a) voluntary and b) only committed by a small minority of women. Compared to Mahommedan honor killings and mass rapes of infidel women it is a non-issue, e.g. in Muhammad bin Qasim's attack on Sindh he captured 700 women as sex slaves, sending 75 of them to Iraq and distributing the rest among his jihadis.

    Neyth moron – Sati was as much voluntary action in Hindu religion as hating 240 million Dalit (untouchable) Hindus. Sati is still practiced in India to this day as Russian Jews are treated like Dalits in Israel.

    In 2009, Israeli media reported that there are 350,000 Jews in Israel who are treated like Indian untouchable when it comes to religious Jewish marriage.

    https://rehmat1.com/2009/08/08/350000-harijan-jews-in-israel/

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  • There’s this:

    ‘Video Sting Exposes Democrats Effort to Incite Violence at Trump Rallies’

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/10/17/exclusive-okeefe-video-sting-exposes-bird-dogging-democrats-effort-to-incite-violence-at-trump-rallies/

    but unz.com wants to talk about Bangladesh?

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  • @Rehmat
    There is no CASTE system in Islam like Hindu and Jews.

    The first invaders to India were Arab Muslims and not Turks or Mongols. 17-year-old Muhammad Bin Qassem was the first Syrian commander who lead a group of 200 soldiers to liberate a group of Sri Lankan Muslim pilgrims imprisoned by Hindu king of Debal (Karachi) in 711 CE. Arab soldiers defeated Hindu army and established first Muslim colony in most part Pakistan's Sindh province. Qassem's Moortis are still worshipped as 'god' by Hindu Dalits in Sindh.

    https://rehmat1.com/2009/10/02/shivaji-afzal-khan-and-hindutva/

    You mean, other than women and non-Muslims having inferior dignity and rights? Yeah, you’re right, Rehmat, there are no castes in islam.

    You are a good — or at least dedicated — apologist for the woman-beating pedophile prophet, shit be upon him.

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    • Agree: Che Guava
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  • @frayed_thread
    Didn't know that bit of history re: Maneckshaw, waiting for Himalayan snowfall to exclude the Chinese. OTOH, I guess it gave the Paks time to massacre a few hundred thousand more Bongs.
    It will be a lot harder to dismember the rest of Pakistan, since its contiguous and more or less mono-cultural. The Paks very quickly and far-sightedly exterminated the one-fifth that could have been a fifth column - the Hindus & Sikhs - from their midst.
    Only a joint effort by China, Russia, India and the US can get rid of this mother ship of terrorism and ethnic cleansing. Can we hold hands and sing Kumbaya to that end?

    The Chinese support of Pak is incredibly short-sighted considering have their own Islamic long-running Islamic insurgency threat. The US is the main abettor of global jihadi terror, so I wouldn’t expect help from it.

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  • @PiltdownMan
    Great piece!

    We need more independent outside analysis of Subcontinental and China affairs, lately viewed in this country solely through the AfPak war on terror lens or China/America hegemonic dynamics.

    One item.

    India fairly delibrately put off a direct military intervention for several months in 1971, as advised by General Manekshaw, the chief of army staff, to Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, who then kept the hawks in her cabinet at bay for him.

    Manekshaw's calculation was to not just get the order of battle complete and the logistics right, it was to let the Himalayan winter take hold in the high mountain passes on the border with China. A Chinese intervention or second front was impossible by early December 1971, when the Indians went into East Pakistan, even if Beijing had decided to do so.

    A second component of Indira Gandhi's China neutralization strategy was the formal signing of the Indo-Soviet Friendship Pact in August 1971, months into the crisis. The treaty had mutual military support language against common enemies. Although Moscow was India's main arms supplier until that point, that was the first and only time that India made a diplomatic commitment that went directly against its declared and long standing formal non-aligned posture.

    The Russo-Chinese border war of 1969 had happened only two years previously, and the language in the treaty was firmly aimed at China (the only conceivable common adversary). Although it most likely was window dressing, given the timing, I'm sure it gave Beijing additional reason to think twice while (and if) it was considering getting involved in the India Pakistan dispute. It was a deft piece of diplomatic work by India.

    Didn’t know that bit of history re: Maneckshaw, waiting for Himalayan snowfall to exclude the Chinese. OTOH, I guess it gave the Paks time to massacre a few hundred thousand more Bongs.
    It will be a lot harder to dismember the rest of Pakistan, since its contiguous and more or less mono-cultural. The Paks very quickly and far-sightedly exterminated the one-fifth that could have been a fifth column – the Hindus & Sikhs – from their midst.
    Only a joint effort by China, Russia, India and the US can get rid of this mother ship of terrorism and ethnic cleansing. Can we hold hands and sing Kumbaya to that end?

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    The Chinese support of Pak is incredibly short-sighted considering have their own Islamic long-running Islamic insurgency threat. The US is the main abettor of global jihadi terror, so I wouldn't expect help from it.
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  • Peter, thanks for an interesting and informative article.

    I have nothing of substance to add, except that Gulf oil money has replaced the school system bequeathed by the British, in places, with madrassas. Most women in the former East Pakistan still choose saris.

    Interesting that they now incline towards the niqab or burka as emigrants.

    Have long been curious about the circumstances of separation, your article has been very educational for me.

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  • Balochis need to be very careful with India. Indian ruling class has a proven history of selling out their supposed friends to the very enemies for cheap price. Just ask Tamils in Sri Lanka.

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    • Replies: @Rehmat
    That's true - but Israel has a similar history selling and killing fellow Jews.

    Romania-born Radu Ioanid, director Washington Holocaust Museum, in his 2005 book, The Ransom of the Jew, claims that Romania sold nearly 235,000 of its 350,000 Jews to Israel during the period between 1960-1989 as commodity barter and hard cash in dollars. The trade was suspended after the pro-Israel communist dictator, Nicolae Ceausescu and his wife Elena were executed by firing squad on Christmas Day 1989 on the orders of a military tribunal set up by leaders of Romania’s bloody revolution in December 1989 .....

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/11/20/when-romania-sold-235000-jews-to-israel/
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  • @DanC
    India has no possible way to support a Balochi insurgency. Even if the Modi government genuinely wants to in spite of its pronouncements (a debatable supposition) it will never happen.

    The logistics would be impossible. Balochistan is separated from India by Sindh & Punjab. The Indians can't cross Pakistani territory to deliver assitance, and delivery by sea would involve tangling with the Pakistan Navy (well, massacering the PN as per usual) which just won't fly in international forums.

    This is exactly the problem West Pakistan had when trying to hold East Pakistan. Separated by landmass, with no way to supply effectively, in large quantities, by sea.

    Iran won't provide support for Indian assistance through its territory since they have no interest in creating an independent Balochi state on their border.

    There's simply no way for this to happen, and Modi's words are simply political rhetoric designed to play to the Indian audience.

    Except that the Baloch can be supplied through Afghanistan, n’est-ce pas? India already arms the Afghan military. A few more weapons won’t be noticed.

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  • anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Rehmat
    Well, the world watch the faces of Gen. Ariel Sharon and Gen. Ehud Barak when butts of 30,000-strong Jewish army were kicked by 1500 Hizbullah fighters in Summer 2006.

    https://rehmat1.com/2010/08/27/hizbullah-changed-the-me-in-2006/

    Israelis killed by hez : 115
    hez killed by Israel : 1500
    May the hez have many more such victories !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    And btw Israel did not surrender , as your country Pakistan did to a Jewish General , JFR Jacob . How does it feel that your Muslim Pakistan got defeated by a Jewish general and your country suffered the indignity to surrender and admit total defeat to a Jew ???? He is in the photo at the top of the page ramhat !!!!!!!!! And is it just me or does it appear that JFR Jacob and Sharon could be brothers , or even twins ???????????????

    Even the Pakistani military is more objective than you ramhat and can admit when they were thouroughly humilliated and defeated by a Jew : To qoute

    A study of the campaign by Pakistan’s National Defence College concluded that “the credit really goes to General Jacob’s meticulous preparations in the Indian eastern command and to the implementation by his Corps commanders.”[

    LoL
    Pakistan owned by a Jew .

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  • anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Marcus
    Sati was a) voluntary and b) only committed by a small minority of women. Compared to Mahommedan honor killings and mass rapes of infidel women it is a non-issue, e.g. in Muhammad bin Qasim's attack on Sindh he captured 700 women as sex slaves, sending 75 of them to Iraq and distributing the rest among his jihadis.

    And Marcus , let us not forget those other virtuous Muslim practices :

    Bacha Bazzi : From the Persian , meaning boy play . A common practice in many Muslims countries including Iran ,Afghanistan and Pakistan . Forced sodomy and rape of pre pubescent boys . The boys are kidnapped , dressed up as girls with make up and etc and then held captive in mens houses , often chained to beds for the pious Muslim men to rape and sodomize at will. Jews and Hindus have much to learn from these pious Muslims .

    FGM : Female genital mutilation . A common practice in all Muslim countries . This involves slicing off a young girl genitalia ( 8-12 years old ) for the purpose of depriving her the pleasure of sex. Another pious Muslim virtue.

    Porn addiction : The highest consumption of pornography in the world is Saudi Arabia , all other Muslim countries are are close behind. Its due to their superior morals and piety , surely .

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    • Replies: @Rehmat
    Let us not forget Pornography was invented by Jews.

    Let us not forget Israel is the only country where sex-slavery still practiced.

    Professor Joshua N. Lambert ( University of Massachusetts) in 2013 book Unclean Lips: Obscenity, Jews, and American Culture, admits that Jews dominate porn industry. Lambert claims that he was influenced by Jewish authors, such as, Philip Roth, Adele Wiseman, Edward De Grazia and Walter Kendrick, who were ” so obsessed with Jewishness and sex“.

    In 2002, when Ramallah was under Jewish army siege, Israeli army captured three of the four Palestinian TV stations. It used these TV stations to broadcast pornographic movies to Palestinian households in order to demoralized Muslims and Christian living in the West Bank.

    When the US and its absurd allies occupied Iraq for Israel in 2003, Baghdad was flooded with porn DVDs and books within six months.

    Jay A. Gertzman, author of Bookleggers and Smuthounds:The Trade in Erotica, 1920-1940 (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999), says: “Jews were prominent in the distribution of gallantiana (fiction on erotic themes and books of dirty jokes and ballads), avant-garde sexually explicit novels, sex pulps, sexology, and flagitious materials“.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/02/17/pornography-the-jewish-secret-wmd/
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  • @Rehmat
    Here you go again moron - quoting lies from a Hindutva/Zionist propaganda site.

    Avoiding to waste my time discussing anything with the 9-ft thick Wailing Wall - can you explain why Indian calls Brahmins as JEWS OF INDIA and not Muslims?

    If one read Hindu religion and Hindu history from some objective source, he will find out that like Judaism - sex, pornography and nudity is significant part of Hindu culture. Not long ago, Hindu widow was burned alive (Sati) along with her dead husband; young virgin girls still dance half naked in temples to please Hindu gods, and the majority of ancient temple walls are decorated with pornographic material. Both Muslim and British rulers tried to stop such cruel Hindu traditions, but failed....

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/06/07/indias-shameful-rape-and-caste-society/

    Sati was a) voluntary and b) only committed by a small minority of women. Compared to Mahommedan honor killings and mass rapes of infidel women it is a non-issue, e.g. in Muhammad bin Qasim’s attack on Sindh he captured 700 women as sex slaves, sending 75 of them to Iraq and distributing the rest among his jihadis.

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    • Replies: @anon
    And Marcus , let us not forget those other virtuous Muslim practices :

    Bacha Bazzi : From the Persian , meaning boy play . A common practice in many Muslims countries including Iran ,Afghanistan and Pakistan . Forced sodomy and rape of pre pubescent boys . The boys are kidnapped , dressed up as girls with make up and etc and then held captive in mens houses , often chained to beds for the pious Muslim men to rape and sodomize at will. Jews and Hindus have much to learn from these pious Muslims .

    FGM : Female genital mutilation . A common practice in all Muslim countries . This involves slicing off a young girl genitalia ( 8-12 years old ) for the purpose of depriving her the pleasure of sex. Another pious Muslim virtue.

    Porn addiction : The highest consumption of pornography in the world is Saudi Arabia , all other Muslim countries are are close behind. Its due to their superior morals and piety , surely .
    , @Rehmat
    Neyth moron - Sati was as much voluntary action in Hindu religion as hating 240 million Dalit (untouchable) Hindus. Sati is still practiced in India to this day as Russian Jews are treated like Dalits in Israel.

    In 2009, Israeli media reported that there are 350,000 Jews in Israel who are treated like Indian untouchable when it comes to religious Jewish marriage.

    https://rehmat1.com/2009/08/08/350000-harijan-jews-in-israel/
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  • @anon
    I liked the photo. The Jewish General JFR Jacob hovers over the man he completely defeated and forced to surrender , General Niazi of Pakistan. Nice to see such archival photos . Ramhat don't you like the look of the Pakistani Army in complete submission to a Jew who defeated them in war ?? The Pakistani Army submitted to JFR Jacob like he was Mohammad . LoL . You Pakis talk a lot of shit but in the end you are at the feet of a Jew !!!!!!!!!!

    Well, the world watch the faces of Gen. Ariel Sharon and Gen. Ehud Barak when butts of 30,000-strong Jewish army were kicked by 1500 Hizbullah fighters in Summer 2006.

    https://rehmat1.com/2010/08/27/hizbullah-changed-the-me-in-2006/

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    • Replies: @anon
    Israelis killed by hez : 115
    hez killed by Israel : 1500
    May the hez have many more such victories !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    And btw Israel did not surrender , as your country Pakistan did to a Jewish General , JFR Jacob . How does it feel that your Muslim Pakistan got defeated by a Jewish general and your country suffered the indignity to surrender and admit total defeat to a Jew ???? He is in the photo at the top of the page ramhat !!!!!!!!! And is it just me or does it appear that JFR Jacob and Sharon could be brothers , or even twins ???????????????

    Even the Pakistani military is more objective than you ramhat and can admit when they were thouroughly humilliated and defeated by a Jew : To qoute

    A study of the campaign by Pakistan's National Defence College concluded that "the credit really goes to General Jacob's meticulous preparations in the Indian eastern command and to the implementation by his Corps commanders."[


    LoL
    Pakistan owned by a Jew .
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  • @Marcus
    Needless to say, this is completely false: Arab, Iranian, and Turkic Muslims held higher status than native Indians whose conversions were viewed as suspect. Also Muslims exempted Brahmins from jizya to attract them to convert. According to the Brief History of Pakistan, the first Mohammedan expedition to India was a raid on Thana in 637 under the Khilfah Umar, by the time of Mohammed b. Qasim's invasion the Mohammedans had already conquered Makran and were trying to conquer the Kabul Shahis
    http://www.kashmirherald.com/featuredarticle/shahwaliullah.html

    Here you go again moron – quoting lies from a Hindutva/Zionist propaganda site.

    Avoiding to waste my time discussing anything with the 9-ft thick Wailing Wall – can you explain why Indian calls Brahmins as JEWS OF INDIA and not Muslims?

    If one read Hindu religion and Hindu history from some objective source, he will find out that like Judaism – sex, pornography and nudity is significant part of Hindu culture. Not long ago, Hindu widow was burned alive (Sati) along with her dead husband; young virgin girls still dance half naked in temples to please Hindu gods, and the majority of ancient temple walls are decorated with pornographic material. Both Muslim and British rulers tried to stop such cruel Hindu traditions, but failed….

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/06/07/indias-shameful-rape-and-caste-society/

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    Sati was a) voluntary and b) only committed by a small minority of women. Compared to Mahommedan honor killings and mass rapes of infidel women it is a non-issue, e.g. in Muhammad bin Qasim's attack on Sindh he captured 700 women as sex slaves, sending 75 of them to Iraq and distributing the rest among his jihadis.
    , @jimmyriddle
    "why Indian calls Brahmins as JEWS OF INDIA and not Muslims"

    Because Brahmins & Jews are high IQ overachievers. Indian Muslims are generally a low IQ underclass.
    , @Che Guava
    'Whore' is adopted from the Islamic 'houri', enough said right there.
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  • anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Rehmat
    There is no CASTE system in Islam like Hindu and Jews.

    The first invaders to India were Arab Muslims and not Turks or Mongols. 17-year-old Muhammad Bin Qassem was the first Syrian commander who lead a group of 200 soldiers to liberate a group of Sri Lankan Muslim pilgrims imprisoned by Hindu king of Debal (Karachi) in 711 CE. Arab soldiers defeated Hindu army and established first Muslim colony in most part Pakistan's Sindh province. Qassem's Moortis are still worshipped as 'god' by Hindu Dalits in Sindh.

    https://rehmat1.com/2009/10/02/shivaji-afzal-khan-and-hindutva/

    I liked the photo. The Jewish General JFR Jacob hovers over the man he completely defeated and forced to surrender , General Niazi of Pakistan. Nice to see such archival photos . Ramhat don’t you like the look of the Pakistani Army in complete submission to a Jew who defeated them in war ?? The Pakistani Army submitted to JFR Jacob like he was Mohammad . LoL . You Pakis talk a lot of shit but in the end you are at the feet of a Jew !!!!!!!!!!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rehmat
    Well, the world watch the faces of Gen. Ariel Sharon and Gen. Ehud Barak when butts of 30,000-strong Jewish army were kicked by 1500 Hizbullah fighters in Summer 2006.

    https://rehmat1.com/2010/08/27/hizbullah-changed-the-me-in-2006/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Rape of Bengalis to shame and cow their communities, with some grotesque ideas of using Punjabi eugenics to dilute Bengali identity (or “improve” allegedly inferior Bengali Muslim stock in the East) apparently played a role in rape condoned if not actively promoted by the Pakistan military. But remaking the gene pool of Bangladesh, a nation of 50+ million people was manifestly beyond the capabilities of the Pakistan Army.

    From my experience, Pakistanis are an unattractive race. They’re in no position to improve any gene pool. A lot of them also have a weird inbred look to them.

    https://twitter.com/muayfarang555/status/749017959843102720

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  • @Rehmat
    There is no CASTE system in Islam like Hindu and Jews.

    The first invaders to India were Arab Muslims and not Turks or Mongols. 17-year-old Muhammad Bin Qassem was the first Syrian commander who lead a group of 200 soldiers to liberate a group of Sri Lankan Muslim pilgrims imprisoned by Hindu king of Debal (Karachi) in 711 CE. Arab soldiers defeated Hindu army and established first Muslim colony in most part Pakistan's Sindh province. Qassem's Moortis are still worshipped as 'god' by Hindu Dalits in Sindh.

    https://rehmat1.com/2009/10/02/shivaji-afzal-khan-and-hindutva/

    Needless to say, this is completely false: Arab, Iranian, and Turkic Muslims held higher status than native Indians whose conversions were viewed as suspect. Also Muslims exempted Brahmins from jizya to attract them to convert. According to the Brief History of Pakistan, the first Mohammedan expedition to India was a raid on Thana in 637 under the Khilfah Umar, by the time of Mohammed b. Qasim’s invasion the Mohammedans had already conquered Makran and were trying to conquer the Kabul Shahis

    http://www.kashmirherald.com/featuredarticle/shahwaliullah.html

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    • Replies: @Rehmat
    Here you go again moron - quoting lies from a Hindutva/Zionist propaganda site.

    Avoiding to waste my time discussing anything with the 9-ft thick Wailing Wall - can you explain why Indian calls Brahmins as JEWS OF INDIA and not Muslims?

    If one read Hindu religion and Hindu history from some objective source, he will find out that like Judaism - sex, pornography and nudity is significant part of Hindu culture. Not long ago, Hindu widow was burned alive (Sati) along with her dead husband; young virgin girls still dance half naked in temples to please Hindu gods, and the majority of ancient temple walls are decorated with pornographic material. Both Muslim and British rulers tried to stop such cruel Hindu traditions, but failed....

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/06/07/indias-shameful-rape-and-caste-society/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    I agree, but all that overlaps with religion. The Muslim invaders of India were lighter skinned than the natives (latter frequently described as "black" by Turks), part of the Persianate cultural sphere, etc., so in their imperial states the native converts who still spoke Indic languages and looked like Hindus occupied the lowest rung socially.
    http://vinod11220.tripod.com/CastesMuslims.htm

    There is no CASTE system in Islam like Hindu and Jews.

    The first invaders to India were Arab Muslims and not Turks or Mongols. 17-year-old Muhammad Bin Qassem was the first Syrian commander who lead a group of 200 soldiers to liberate a group of Sri Lankan Muslim pilgrims imprisoned by Hindu king of Debal (Karachi) in 711 CE. Arab soldiers defeated Hindu army and established first Muslim colony in most part Pakistan’s Sindh province. Qassem’s Moortis are still worshipped as ‘god’ by Hindu Dalits in Sindh.

    https://rehmat1.com/2009/10/02/shivaji-afzal-khan-and-hindutva/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    Needless to say, this is completely false: Arab, Iranian, and Turkic Muslims held higher status than native Indians whose conversions were viewed as suspect. Also Muslims exempted Brahmins from jizya to attract them to convert. According to the Brief History of Pakistan, the first Mohammedan expedition to India was a raid on Thana in 637 under the Khilfah Umar, by the time of Mohammed b. Qasim's invasion the Mohammedans had already conquered Makran and were trying to conquer the Kabul Shahis
    http://www.kashmirherald.com/featuredarticle/shahwaliullah.html
    , @anon
    I liked the photo. The Jewish General JFR Jacob hovers over the man he completely defeated and forced to surrender , General Niazi of Pakistan. Nice to see such archival photos . Ramhat don't you like the look of the Pakistani Army in complete submission to a Jew who defeated them in war ?? The Pakistani Army submitted to JFR Jacob like he was Mohammad . LoL . You Pakis talk a lot of shit but in the end you are at the feet of a Jew !!!!!!!!!!
    , @RadicalCenter
    You mean, other than women and non-Muslims having inferior dignity and rights? Yeah, you're right, Rehmat, there are no castes in islam.

    You are a good -- or at least dedicated -- apologist for the woman-beating pedophile prophet, shit be upon him.
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  • @DanC
    India has no possible way to support a Balochi insurgency. Even if the Modi government genuinely wants to in spite of its pronouncements (a debatable supposition) it will never happen.

    The logistics would be impossible. Balochistan is separated from India by Sindh & Punjab. The Indians can't cross Pakistani territory to deliver assitance, and delivery by sea would involve tangling with the Pakistan Navy (well, massacering the PN as per usual) which just won't fly in international forums.

    This is exactly the problem West Pakistan had when trying to hold East Pakistan. Separated by landmass, with no way to supply effectively, in large quantities, by sea.

    Iran won't provide support for Indian assistance through its territory since they have no interest in creating an independent Balochi state on their border.

    There's simply no way for this to happen, and Modi's words are simply political rhetoric designed to play to the Indian audience.

    Modi’s words are simply political rhetoric designed to play to the Indian audience.

    Agree with your post, except for this. Modi’s words are not designed to play just to the Indian audience but to the powers-that-be in Pakistan. It’s to mess with their minds, and convince them that further interference in Kashmir will provoke similar interference in Balochistan. Most Indians don’t care about Balochis or Baloch independence, so supporting something like that on a grand scale is out of the question.

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  • @PiltdownMan
    I don't think cultural, austere, Islamization was a factor at that point in Pakistan's history, or indeed in any part of the Muslim world back then. That was the heyday of secular, reformist dictators in Egypt, Iraq, Syria and other places. General Yahya Khan, a WWII British Indian Army veteran, was notorious for booze and broads parties.

    The jealousy was strictly ethnic. West Pakistani Punjabis and Sindhis historically look down on the dark skinned Bengalis as being inferior, less manly, physically puny and so on. The thought of Bengalis forming the ruling party governing the country was just too much to stomach, an affront to West Pakistani machismo.

    Hence the immediate impasse and obstructionism after what should have been a routine election, albeit with a new and surprising result.

    I agree, but all that overlaps with religion. The Muslim invaders of India were lighter skinned than the natives (latter frequently described as “black” by Turks), part of the Persianate cultural sphere, etc., so in their imperial states the native converts who still spoke Indic languages and looked like Hindus occupied the lowest rung socially.

    http://vinod11220.tripod.com/CastesMuslims.htm

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rehmat
    There is no CASTE system in Islam like Hindu and Jews.

    The first invaders to India were Arab Muslims and not Turks or Mongols. 17-year-old Muhammad Bin Qassem was the first Syrian commander who lead a group of 200 soldiers to liberate a group of Sri Lankan Muslim pilgrims imprisoned by Hindu king of Debal (Karachi) in 711 CE. Arab soldiers defeated Hindu army and established first Muslim colony in most part Pakistan's Sindh province. Qassem's Moortis are still worshipped as 'god' by Hindu Dalits in Sindh.

    https://rehmat1.com/2009/10/02/shivaji-afzal-khan-and-hindutva/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    My impression is that East Pakistan was seen as not Muslim enough, aside from the large Hindu and Buddhist minorities that had to go: their women still wore saris, they used Indic scripts, etc. Of course now Gulf countries are trying to eradicate all traces of indigenous cultures in Muslim SE Asia "peacefully" via funding approved orthodox preachers, ironic considering how south Asian workers are treated in the Gulf.

    I don’t think cultural, austere, Islamization was a factor at that point in Pakistan’s history, or indeed in any part of the Muslim world back then. That was the heyday of secular, reformist dictators in Egypt, Iraq, Syria and other places. General Yahya Khan, a WWII British Indian Army veteran, was notorious for booze and broads parties.

    The jealousy was strictly ethnic. West Pakistani Punjabis and Sindhis historically look down on the dark skinned Bengalis as being inferior, less manly, physically puny and so on. The thought of Bengalis forming the ruling party governing the country was just too much to stomach, an affront to West Pakistani machismo.

    Hence the immediate impasse and obstructionism after what should have been a routine election, albeit with a new and surprising result.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    I agree, but all that overlaps with religion. The Muslim invaders of India were lighter skinned than the natives (latter frequently described as "black" by Turks), part of the Persianate cultural sphere, etc., so in their imperial states the native converts who still spoke Indic languages and looked like Hindus occupied the lowest rung socially.
    http://vinod11220.tripod.com/CastesMuslims.htm
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  • India has no possible way to support a Balochi insurgency. Even if the Modi government genuinely wants to in spite of its pronouncements (a debatable supposition) it will never happen.

    The logistics would be impossible. Balochistan is separated from India by Sindh & Punjab. The Indians can’t cross Pakistani territory to deliver assitance, and delivery by sea would involve tangling with the Pakistan Navy (well, massacering the PN as per usual) which just won’t fly in international forums.

    This is exactly the problem West Pakistan had when trying to hold East Pakistan. Separated by landmass, with no way to supply effectively, in large quantities, by sea.

    Iran won’t provide support for Indian assistance through its territory since they have no interest in creating an independent Balochi state on their border.

    There’s simply no way for this to happen, and Modi’s words are simply political rhetoric designed to play to the Indian audience.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Numinous

    Modi’s words are simply political rhetoric designed to play to the Indian audience.
     
    Agree with your post, except for this. Modi's words are not designed to play just to the Indian audience but to the powers-that-be in Pakistan. It's to mess with their minds, and convince them that further interference in Kashmir will provoke similar interference in Balochistan. Most Indians don't care about Balochis or Baloch independence, so supporting something like that on a grand scale is out of the question.
    , @Shredni Vashtar
    Except that the Baloch can be supplied through Afghanistan, n'est-ce pas? India already arms the Afghan military. A few more weapons won't be noticed.
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  • Great piece!

    We need more independent outside analysis of Subcontinental and China affairs, lately viewed in this country solely through the AfPak war on terror lens or China/America hegemonic dynamics.

    One item.

    India fairly delibrately put off a direct military intervention for several months in 1971, as advised by General Manekshaw, the chief of army staff, to Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, who then kept the hawks in her cabinet at bay for him.

    Manekshaw’s calculation was to not just get the order of battle complete and the logistics right, it was to let the Himalayan winter take hold in the high mountain passes on the border with China. A Chinese intervention or second front was impossible by early December 1971, when the Indians went into East Pakistan, even if Beijing had decided to do so.

    A second component of Indira Gandhi’s China neutralization strategy was the formal signing of the Indo-Soviet Friendship Pact in August 1971, months into the crisis. The treaty had mutual military support language against common enemies. Although Moscow was India’s main arms supplier until that point, that was the first and only time that India made a diplomatic commitment that went directly against its declared and long standing formal non-aligned posture.

    The Russo-Chinese border war of 1969 had happened only two years previously, and the language in the treaty was firmly aimed at China (the only conceivable common adversary). Although it most likely was window dressing, given the timing, I’m sure it gave Beijing additional reason to think twice while (and if) it was considering getting involved in the India Pakistan dispute. It was a deft piece of diplomatic work by India.

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    • Replies: @frayed_thread
    Didn't know that bit of history re: Maneckshaw, waiting for Himalayan snowfall to exclude the Chinese. OTOH, I guess it gave the Paks time to massacre a few hundred thousand more Bongs.
    It will be a lot harder to dismember the rest of Pakistan, since its contiguous and more or less mono-cultural. The Paks very quickly and far-sightedly exterminated the one-fifth that could have been a fifth column - the Hindus & Sikhs - from their midst.
    Only a joint effort by China, Russia, India and the US can get rid of this mother ship of terrorism and ethnic cleansing. Can we hold hands and sing Kumbaya to that end?
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  • My impression is that East Pakistan was seen as not Muslim enough, aside from the large Hindu and Buddhist minorities that had to go: their women still wore saris, they used Indic scripts, etc. Of course now Gulf countries are trying to eradicate all traces of indigenous cultures in Muslim SE Asia “peacefully” via funding approved orthodox preachers, ironic considering how south Asian workers are treated in the Gulf.

    Read More
    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    I don't think cultural, austere, Islamization was a factor at that point in Pakistan's history, or indeed in any part of the Muslim world back then. That was the heyday of secular, reformist dictators in Egypt, Iraq, Syria and other places. General Yahya Khan, a WWII British Indian Army veteran, was notorious for booze and broads parties.

    The jealousy was strictly ethnic. West Pakistani Punjabis and Sindhis historically look down on the dark skinned Bengalis as being inferior, less manly, physically puny and so on. The thought of Bengalis forming the ruling party governing the country was just too much to stomach, an affront to West Pakistani machismo.

    Hence the immediate impasse and obstructionism after what should have been a routine election, albeit with a new and surprising result.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Let's start at the beginning. If you read a book about Indian history in the 1980s it might begin with this sort of stylized narrative: in the beginning were the Mundas. Then there were the Dravidians, then finally the Aryans (and as an afterthought various East Asian groups on the fringes of northern and eastern...
  • This section also did not make it through correctly for some reason:

    Ainu kitchi “trough” from Japanese dialect (Aomori) kitchi “trough” (from Chinese 柜子 guìzi “cabinet”; also cf. Korean kuzi > kuyu ~ kuśi “trough”…)

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  • The site would not publish correctly this part of my previous comment:

    Ainu choni ‘foal; pony’ maybe from Japanese dialect jon ‘a word for calling a girl’ (Ehime), ‘a term of endearment for a child’ (Oita) ~ jonjon ‘a boy of high birth, a nobleman’s son’ (Fukuoka) ~ jonko ‘Miss, young lady, a respectful term for someone’s daughter’ (Hyogo, Tokushima, Ehime), ‘a good child, a clever one’ (Ibaraki, Chiba). The Japanese dialect words are probably all from Chinese 娘 niáng ‘mother; girl, young lady; woman, wife.’ I suppose the Ainu word also somewhat resembles Proto-Turkic *yang’i ‘new’ (> Turkish yeni) and Mongolian shine ‘new.’

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  • @Twinkie

    You occasionally get people on the internet burbling on about how the Jomon were Southeast Asian. That doesn’t really seem to be supported at all by present day dna of the Ainu or adna of ancient Jomon, where it looks more like like Jomon / Ainu may have been varying mixes of an outgroup equally related to all East Asian and people like present day North Asians.
     
    There are fragmentary firsthand Yamato records about various groups of the Emishi, who were likely descendants of the Jomon and ancestors of the Ainu. Interestingly from a military historical point of view, the Emishi were apparently quite adept at horse riding and cavalry tactics - yet another evidence that they were quite unlikely to be Southeast Asian in origin.

    Most recorded Ainu words that have anything to do with horses or equestrianism are transparent loanwords from Japanese (or from Chinese via Japanese).

    Ainu umma ~ unma ~ uma “horse” < Japanese uma "horse" (< Chinese 馬 mǎ "horse")

    Ainu kitchi "trough" < Japanese dialect (Aomori) kitchi "trough" ( kuyu ~ kuśi “trough” and some Buryat word for “pail, bucket, tub, trough” whose precise form I cannot recall at the moment). The word kitchi also has been recorded with the meaning “a wooden storage unit, a shed” in Miyagi, “a water tank” in Iwate and Senboku District, Akita, or “a rice chest” in Aomori and Esashi District, Iwate. The forms kitsu, kittsu, kichi, kisu, and kishi also occur with similar meanings (sharing the common denominator of “wooden storage unit or container”) in various Japanese dialects from Niigata and Ibaraki in the south throughout the Tohoku region. The Standard Japanese form is hitsu ~ -bitsu, likely from the same Chinese source (but with retention of labialization and loss of the velar segment instead of the retention of the velar and loss of the labial that is seen in the northeastern dialect forms). The Standard Japanese form most commonly refers to a container for holding rice, either cooked or uncooked.

    Ainu kura “saddle, packsaddle” < Japanese kura "saddle," Ainu norinkura "saddle" < Japanese norikura "riding saddle"

    Ainu kurunki "a chestnut or sorrel horse" < Japanese kurige "a chestnut or sorrel horse (or the coloration of such a horse)" < Japanese kuri "chestnut" + Japanese ke "hair."

    The etymology of a couple Ainu words is somewhat cloudy:

    Ainu choni ? Turkish yeni) and Mongolian shine “new.”

    Ainu mesas “horse’s mane” ?< Ainu *me '(back of the) neck' as in Ainu merit 'scruff of the neck, nape of the neck, back of the neck, sinews of the neck' (-rit is as in Ainu sinrit 'root (of a tree or a plant); ancestor; clan, ancestors and descendants; one's deceased father' or Ainu kemrit ~ kemorit 'blood vessel') + some unknown morpheme *sas. The first morpheme (*me 'neck') seems rather similar to Jurchen-Manchu meifen 'neck' and Turkish boyn- (< Proto-Turkic *boyn- ~ *moyn-; there used to be no regular distinction between /b/ and /m/ in Turkic) 'neck.' The second, unknown morpheme (*sas) seems rather similar to Turkish sach 'hair of the head.'

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  • @Matt_
    With the Garo and Burmese ancestry mentioned, the Harappa Project splits East Asian ancestry a slightly different way into SE Asian, NE Asian and Siberian (roughly, there's also a Beringian component but it starts really far north).

    The Garo fit with a ratio of SE Asian:NE Asian:Siberian of 26:45:6, with the remaining 23 of their ancestry being essentially all S_Indian, with fractions of percents in other categories. If you scale that to an assumption of the 3 EAs summing to 100%, then 34:58:8.

    Similarly, the Burmanese samples have SE Asian:NE Asian:Siberian 28:42:6 (balance is 17% South Indian, like Garo, but also a bit more complex with some West Eurasian and Papuan components). To 100%, 36:55:8, for SE Asian, NE Asian, Siberian.

    That seems kind of interesting in light of the Dai samples scoring 71% in the SE Asian component, and Vietnamese samples 58%, while Cambodian also score 71% in the SE Asian component (or 84% of their membership in the 3 East Asian components).

    The Southern Chinese samples have membership of 33% SE Asian and 66% NE Asian.
    That doesn't seem totally surprising, as a contrast, given that Garo and Burmese are Sino-Tibetan languages.

    So even though the NE Asian and SE Asian clusters are closely related (even a small amount of S Indian would push two populations farther apart than large differences in the NE Asian vs SE Asian, genome wide), it seems like there's a dimension there on which the Garo and Burmanese samples differ from other SE Asian populations in affinity to Siberian and NE Asian populations that could be relevant for Bengalis.

    The Harappa Project's small (11) "Bengali" sample has SE_Asian:NE_Asian:Siberian of 7:6:2, which would scale over to 46:39:15. That's a little shaky as it's an extrapolation from a small percentage of the ancestry of a small sample, but seems kind of consistent with a relatively more Burman / Garo like East Asian ancestry in the Bengalis than a Cambodian like one (unless its something different that's fitting awkwardly into those categories).

    Another lot are the Aonaga population, from Nagaland, fit with 2:84:7 for SE Asian, NE Asian and Siberian. Compares with Tibet 0:78:12, Japanese 0:99:1 and North Chinese 0:78:12 for SE Asian, NE Asian, Siberian. By the measure of the Harappa Project's analysis, they're almost like transplants from Northeast Asia, with a low 7% of non-EA component.

    The Garo fit with a ratio of SE Asian:NE Asian:Siberian of 26:45:6, with the remaining 23 of their ancestry being essentially all S_Indian, with fractions of percents in other categories. If you scale that to an assumption of the 3 EAs summing to 100%, then 34:58:8.

    Similarly, the Burmanese samples have SE Asian:NE Asian:Siberian 28:42:6 (balance is 17% South Indian, like Garo, but also a bit more complex with some West Eurasian and Papuan components). To 100%, 36:55:8, for SE Asian, NE Asian, Siberian.

    I find this interesting in light of Blench and Post’s work on Sino-Tibetan (or “Trans-Himalayan”) language classification, for instance “Rethinking Sino-Tibetan phylogeny from the perspective of North East Indian languages” (which I’ve mentioned a couple times in comments on this blog previously). They argue that the origin of that macro-family is most likely in the vicinity of Arunachal Pradesh. Regarding the Burmese, they believe that Burmese is especially closely related to Chinese and Tibetan, so perhaps NE Asian genes in Burma could plausibly be predicted based on language and history. But Bodo-Garo does not seem to be especially closely related to anything outside of the NE India/Pakistan region (although Blench and Post do describe it as firmly part of Sino-Tibetan, which is more than you can say for a lot of the local languages that have been assumed to be of that stock). I wonder if it’s possible that highlands Arunachal already had a lot of NE Asian ancestry as of 6 or 7 kya (or whenever Proto-Sino-Tibetan was spoken).

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  • @Matt_
    Twinkie: I am still not convinced that “Japanese 0:99:1″ is right. I read a while back that Koreans are almost entirely NE Asian and Siberian, but that Japanese actually have some SE Asian. Is that outdated?

    IRC on the whole, compared to Korea, Japanese cluster / position slightly "further" from mainland Southeast Asia on most PCA, FST statistic, population trees and ADMIXTURE I've seen, with less ancestry components in common. They basically overlap though, and sometimes the Koreans are more distant from SE Asian populations. It seems a little like Razib says above, which is that this Jomon element pushes Japan a little further away from others such as Southeast Asia than Koreans, and while there is some gene flow from North Asia to Korea, it is of less effect in pushing Korea away from SE Asia. It could be that something more complex is going on with slightly more SE Asian like genetic flow into Japan which is masked by Jomon gene flow pushing further away, but I don't think anyone has ever tested anything like that, and that pattern doesn't just immediately seem to emerge inadvertently.

    That's just my impression though, different PCA / ADMIXTURE can show slightly different things.

    You occasionally get people on the internet burbling on about how the Jomon were Southeast Asian. That doesn't really seem to be supported at all by present day dna of the Ainu or adna of ancient Jomon, where it looks more like like Jomon / Ainu may have been varying mixes of an outgroup equally related to all East Asian and people like present day North Asians.

    With the % above, Zack at Harappa Project is careful to say on his blog this is just a component he has labelled NE_Asian based on where it peaks (North China-Japan & Tibet) - it may actually be more Japanese, with a composite of "real" NE Asian with some degree of Jomon ancestry, and the lack of or lower such Jomon ancestry might affect the clusters. I'm interested in it here because it provides an element of differentiation between the Sino-Tibetan groups in Northeast India (Garo, Aonaga, Nyishi) and peoples of SE Asia, and that could say something about the East Asian ancestry in Bengalis, even if its not necessarily an unmixed ancient population.

    Re: where the Mongolian samples are from, the spreadsheet I linked has a dataset label and these comes from papers by Morten Rasmussen and Bayazit Yunusbayev, so you could check those out to find out.

    You occasionally get people on the internet burbling on about how the Jomon were Southeast Asian. That doesn’t really seem to be supported at all by present day dna of the Ainu or adna of ancient Jomon, where it looks more like like Jomon / Ainu may have been varying mixes of an outgroup equally related to all East Asian and people like present day North Asians.

    There are fragmentary firsthand Yamato records about various groups of the Emishi, who were likely descendants of the Jomon and ancestors of the Ainu. Interestingly from a military historical point of view, the Emishi were apparently quite adept at horse riding and cavalry tactics – yet another evidence that they were quite unlikely to be Southeast Asian in origin.

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    • Replies: @Ebizur
    Most recorded Ainu words that have anything to do with horses or equestrianism are transparent loanwords from Japanese (or from Chinese via Japanese).

    Ainu umma ~ unma ~ uma "horse" < Japanese uma "horse" (< Chinese 馬 mǎ "horse")

    Ainu kitchi "trough" < Japanese dialect (Aomori) kitchi "trough" ( kuyu ~ kuśi "trough" and some Buryat word for "pail, bucket, tub, trough" whose precise form I cannot recall at the moment). The word kitchi also has been recorded with the meaning "a wooden storage unit, a shed" in Miyagi, "a water tank" in Iwate and Senboku District, Akita, or "a rice chest" in Aomori and Esashi District, Iwate. The forms kitsu, kittsu, kichi, kisu, and kishi also occur with similar meanings (sharing the common denominator of "wooden storage unit or container") in various Japanese dialects from Niigata and Ibaraki in the south throughout the Tohoku region. The Standard Japanese form is hitsu ~ -bitsu, likely from the same Chinese source (but with retention of labialization and loss of the velar segment instead of the retention of the velar and loss of the labial that is seen in the northeastern dialect forms). The Standard Japanese form most commonly refers to a container for holding rice, either cooked or uncooked.

    Ainu kura "saddle, packsaddle" < Japanese kura "saddle," Ainu norinkura "saddle" < Japanese norikura "riding saddle"

    Ainu kurunki "a chestnut or sorrel horse" < Japanese kurige "a chestnut or sorrel horse (or the coloration of such a horse)" < Japanese kuri "chestnut" + Japanese ke "hair."

    The etymology of a couple Ainu words is somewhat cloudy:

    Ainu choni ? Turkish yeni) and Mongolian shine "new."

    Ainu mesas "horse's mane" ?< Ainu *me '(back of the) neck' as in Ainu merit 'scruff of the neck, nape of the neck, back of the neck, sinews of the neck' (-rit is as in Ainu sinrit 'root (of a tree or a plant); ancestor; clan, ancestors and descendants; one's deceased father' or Ainu kemrit ~ kemorit 'blood vessel') + some unknown morpheme *sas. The first morpheme (*me 'neck') seems rather similar to Jurchen-Manchu meifen 'neck' and Turkish boyn- (< Proto-Turkic *boyn- ~ *moyn-; there used to be no regular distinction between /b/ and /m/ in Turkic) 'neck.' The second, unknown morpheme (*sas) seems rather similar to Turkish sach 'hair of the head.'

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  • SD says:

    Why is that Munda group does not have west asian component. If they have admixed with ANI and ASI, they should have west asian component? Because ANI contains west asian component. Even tribes and tamils have these. Or is it that the blue Indian component represents ANI + ASI ? and by west asian do you mean mediterranean and european which was carried by Indo-Iranians?

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  • @Shaikorth
    "That doesn’t really seem to be supported at all by present day dna of the Ainu or adna of ancient Jomon, where it looks more like like Jomon / Ainu may have been varying mixes of an outgroup equally related to all East Asian and people like present day North Asians."

    The allele sharing figures from Kanzawa-Kiriyama's paper (fig. 3.12-3-13) support the idea that Jomon was more of a pure outgroup than having NE Asian related ancestry, wouldn't you say? Ainu, Ryukyans and mainland Japanese top the list in that order, but after that southern East Asian groups are as close or closer than northern East Asian or Native American groups.

    Modern Ainu however may have Paleo-Siberian ancestry via their Okhotsk contacts.

    Yeah, on the whole, looking at the figures you describe, those do suggest that.

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  • @Shaikorth
    "That doesn’t really seem to be supported at all by present day dna of the Ainu or adna of ancient Jomon, where it looks more like like Jomon / Ainu may have been varying mixes of an outgroup equally related to all East Asian and people like present day North Asians."

    The allele sharing figures from Kanzawa-Kiriyama's paper (fig. 3.12-3-13) support the idea that Jomon was more of a pure outgroup than having NE Asian related ancestry, wouldn't you say? Ainu, Ryukyans and mainland Japanese top the list in that order, but after that southern East Asian groups are as close or closer than northern East Asian or Native American groups.

    Modern Ainu however may have Paleo-Siberian ancestry via their Okhotsk contacts.

    if they diverged prior to 10 thousand years ago, like, seems they should be an outgroup. a lot of NE + SE Asian genetic variation today is a function of agricultural age expansions. though my impression is that Jomon are closer to other east euarasians than ASI would be. perhaps equivalent to an west eurasian-ANI clade. 20 to 30 K BP.

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  • @Matt_
    Twinkie: I am still not convinced that “Japanese 0:99:1″ is right. I read a while back that Koreans are almost entirely NE Asian and Siberian, but that Japanese actually have some SE Asian. Is that outdated?

    IRC on the whole, compared to Korea, Japanese cluster / position slightly "further" from mainland Southeast Asia on most PCA, FST statistic, population trees and ADMIXTURE I've seen, with less ancestry components in common. They basically overlap though, and sometimes the Koreans are more distant from SE Asian populations. It seems a little like Razib says above, which is that this Jomon element pushes Japan a little further away from others such as Southeast Asia than Koreans, and while there is some gene flow from North Asia to Korea, it is of less effect in pushing Korea away from SE Asia. It could be that something more complex is going on with slightly more SE Asian like genetic flow into Japan which is masked by Jomon gene flow pushing further away, but I don't think anyone has ever tested anything like that, and that pattern doesn't just immediately seem to emerge inadvertently.

    That's just my impression though, different PCA / ADMIXTURE can show slightly different things.

    You occasionally get people on the internet burbling on about how the Jomon were Southeast Asian. That doesn't really seem to be supported at all by present day dna of the Ainu or adna of ancient Jomon, where it looks more like like Jomon / Ainu may have been varying mixes of an outgroup equally related to all East Asian and people like present day North Asians.

    With the % above, Zack at Harappa Project is careful to say on his blog this is just a component he has labelled NE_Asian based on where it peaks (North China-Japan & Tibet) - it may actually be more Japanese, with a composite of "real" NE Asian with some degree of Jomon ancestry, and the lack of or lower such Jomon ancestry might affect the clusters. I'm interested in it here because it provides an element of differentiation between the Sino-Tibetan groups in Northeast India (Garo, Aonaga, Nyishi) and peoples of SE Asia, and that could say something about the East Asian ancestry in Bengalis, even if its not necessarily an unmixed ancient population.

    Re: where the Mongolian samples are from, the spreadsheet I linked has a dataset label and these comes from papers by Morten Rasmussen and Bayazit Yunusbayev, so you could check those out to find out.

    “That doesn’t really seem to be supported at all by present day dna of the Ainu or adna of ancient Jomon, where it looks more like like Jomon / Ainu may have been varying mixes of an outgroup equally related to all East Asian and people like present day North Asians.”

    The allele sharing figures from Kanzawa-Kiriyama’s paper (fig. 3.12-3-13) support the idea that Jomon was more of a pure outgroup than having NE Asian related ancestry, wouldn’t you say? Ainu, Ryukyans and mainland Japanese top the list in that order, but after that southern East Asian groups are as close or closer than northern East Asian or Native American groups.

    Modern Ainu however may have Paleo-Siberian ancestry via their Okhotsk contacts.

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    if they diverged prior to 10 thousand years ago, like, seems they should be an outgroup. a lot of NE + SE Asian genetic variation today is a function of agricultural age expansions. though my impression is that Jomon are closer to other east euarasians than ASI would be. perhaps equivalent to an west eurasian-ANI clade. 20 to 30 K BP.
    , @Matt_
    Yeah, on the whole, looking at the figures you describe, those do suggest that.
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  • Twinkie: I am still not convinced that “Japanese 0:99:1″ is right. I read a while back that Koreans are almost entirely NE Asian and Siberian, but that Japanese actually have some SE Asian. Is that outdated?

    IRC on the whole, compared to Korea, Japanese cluster / position slightly “further” from mainland Southeast Asia on most PCA, FST statistic, population trees and ADMIXTURE I’ve seen, with less ancestry components in common. They basically overlap though, and sometimes the Koreans are more distant from SE Asian populations. It seems a little like Razib says above, which is that this Jomon element pushes Japan a little further away from others such as Southeast Asia than Koreans, and while there is some gene flow from North Asia to Korea, it is of less effect in pushing Korea away from SE Asia. It could be that something more complex is going on with slightly more SE Asian like genetic flow into Japan which is masked by Jomon gene flow pushing further away, but I don’t think anyone has ever tested anything like that, and that pattern doesn’t just immediately seem to emerge inadvertently.

    That’s just my impression though, different PCA / ADMIXTURE can show slightly different things.

    You occasionally get people on the internet burbling on about how the Jomon were Southeast Asian. That doesn’t really seem to be supported at all by present day dna of the Ainu or adna of ancient Jomon, where it looks more like like Jomon / Ainu may have been varying mixes of an outgroup equally related to all East Asian and people like present day North Asians.

    With the % above, Zack at Harappa Project is careful to say on his blog this is just a component he has labelled NE_Asian based on where it peaks (North China-Japan & Tibet) – it may actually be more Japanese, with a composite of “real” NE Asian with some degree of Jomon ancestry, and the lack of or lower such Jomon ancestry might affect the clusters. I’m interested in it here because it provides an element of differentiation between the Sino-Tibetan groups in Northeast India (Garo, Aonaga, Nyishi) and peoples of SE Asia, and that could say something about the East Asian ancestry in Bengalis, even if its not necessarily an unmixed ancient population.

    Re: where the Mongolian samples are from, the spreadsheet I linked has a dataset label and these comes from papers by Morten Rasmussen and Bayazit Yunusbayev, so you could check those out to find out.

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    • Replies: @Shaikorth
    "That doesn’t really seem to be supported at all by present day dna of the Ainu or adna of ancient Jomon, where it looks more like like Jomon / Ainu may have been varying mixes of an outgroup equally related to all East Asian and people like present day North Asians."

    The allele sharing figures from Kanzawa-Kiriyama's paper (fig. 3.12-3-13) support the idea that Jomon was more of a pure outgroup than having NE Asian related ancestry, wouldn't you say? Ainu, Ryukyans and mainland Japanese top the list in that order, but after that southern East Asian groups are as close or closer than northern East Asian or Native American groups.

    Modern Ainu however may have Paleo-Siberian ancestry via their Okhotsk contacts.
    , @Twinkie

    You occasionally get people on the internet burbling on about how the Jomon were Southeast Asian. That doesn’t really seem to be supported at all by present day dna of the Ainu or adna of ancient Jomon, where it looks more like like Jomon / Ainu may have been varying mixes of an outgroup equally related to all East Asian and people like present day North Asians.
     
    There are fragmentary firsthand Yamato records about various groups of the Emishi, who were likely descendants of the Jomon and ancestors of the Ainu. Interestingly from a military historical point of view, the Emishi were apparently quite adept at horse riding and cavalry tactics - yet another evidence that they were quite unlikely to be Southeast Asian in origin.
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  • @Razib Khan
    who are you talking to? i know the methods better than you. you said that a set of methods was better than another set of methods. i said i disagreed. not that there's a perfect method. don't respond to what you think i meant, respond to what i said.

    all methods have upside and downsides. they're mapping onto reality, not representations of reality.

    The statement that no method is perfect was there to clarify my own position, meaning that I don’t think IBS and formal testing are perfect (just that they give a more accurate picture overall), not some attempt to educate you about said methods. :)

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  • @Shaikorth
    There's no perfect method, but I don't see ADMIXTURE trumping either of the ones I mentioned. PCA is not really even a competing method, but allows for a partial visualization of IBS/formal/ADMIXTURE results. SpaceMix looks interesting but hasn't been yet utilized enough for me to make conclusions.

    who are you talking to? i know the methods better than you. you said that a set of methods was better than another set of methods. i said i disagreed. not that there’s a perfect method. don’t respond to what you think i meant, respond to what i said.

    all methods have upside and downsides. they’re mapping onto reality, not representations of reality.

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    • Replies: @Shaikorth
    The statement that no method is perfect was there to clarify my own position, meaning that I don't think IBS and formal testing are perfect (just that they give a more accurate picture overall), not some attempt to educate you about said methods. :)
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  • There’s no perfect method, but I don’t see ADMIXTURE trumping either of the ones I mentioned. PCA is not really even a competing method, but allows for a partial visualization of IBS/formal/ADMIXTURE results. SpaceMix looks interesting but hasn’t been yet utilized enough for me to make conclusions.

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    who are you talking to? i know the methods better than you. you said that a set of methods was better than another set of methods. i said i disagreed. not that there's a perfect method. don't respond to what you think i meant, respond to what i said.

    all methods have upside and downsides. they're mapping onto reality, not representations of reality.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Formal testing and IBS comparisons give the most accurate picture about a population’s relative position.

    i don’t agree with this. all methods have limitations.

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  • @Twinkie

    Han_N_China was actually 12:78:6 for SE_Asian:NE_Asian:Siberian.
     
    That sounds more plausible than 0:78:12.

    I am still not convinced that "Japanese 0:99:1" is right. I read a while back that Koreans are almost entirely NE Asian and Siberian, but that Japanese actually have some SE Asian. Is that outdated?

    Where were the Mongolian samples taken?

    ADMIXTURE components are not absolutes, what they represent depends on the initial samples used when running the program. National Genographic’s analysis shows Japanese are 75% NE Asian 25% SE Asian. Harappa Japanese are 99% NE Asian. Essentially this means that National Genographic’s NE Asian component is more “northern” than Harappa’s which also represents alleles Genographic counts as SE Asian.

    Formal testing and IBS comparisons give the most accurate picture about a population’s relative position. You can get decent idea from ADMIXTURE and PCA’s too but keep in mind their limitations – comparing results from different ADMIXTURE analyses can be confusing if you don’t know the components aren’t actually the same thing in different runs.

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  • @Twinkie
    I wonder how North Chinese, Koreans, and Manchus compare. I mean full-blooded Manchus, as rare as they are nowadays.

    i’m going to generate PCAs for you tonight. i have big data sets on this sort of stuff.

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  • @Razib Khan
    on PCA koreans are prefect betwee n_chinese and japanese. the japanese are modeled as a 75% korean 25% jomon(ish) mix, so that makes sense (n_chinese and koreans are not that distant, but the 0.25 jomon drags japanese away from koreans).

    I wonder how North Chinese, Koreans, and Manchus compare. I mean full-blooded Manchus, as rare as they are nowadays.

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    i'm going to generate PCAs for you tonight. i have big data sets on this sort of stuff.
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  • @Matt_
    @Twinkie, apologies, Han_N_China was actually 12:78:6 for SE_Asian:NE_Asian:Siberian.

    The Harappa Project's ADMIXTURE run (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdDhib1M5OE1wWENNb2haUFFWZzNBMEE) doesn't use a Korean sample. It has a couple of different Mongolian samples which vary are SE_Asian:NE_Asian:Siberian 7:62:23 (8:67:25) and 0:39:38 (0:51:49) for SE_Asian:NE_Asian:Siberian (with the balance being West Eurasian).

    Han_N_China was actually 12:78:6 for SE_Asian:NE_Asian:Siberian.

    That sounds more plausible than 0:78:12.

    I am still not convinced that “Japanese 0:99:1″ is right. I read a while back that Koreans are almost entirely NE Asian and Siberian, but that Japanese actually have some SE Asian. Is that outdated?

    Where were the Mongolian samples taken?

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    • Replies: @Shaikorth
    ADMIXTURE components are not absolutes, what they represent depends on the initial samples used when running the program. National Genographic's analysis shows Japanese are 75% NE Asian 25% SE Asian. Harappa Japanese are 99% NE Asian. Essentially this means that National Genographic's NE Asian component is more "northern" than Harappa's which also represents alleles Genographic counts as SE Asian.

    Formal testing and IBS comparisons give the most accurate picture about a population's relative position. You can get decent idea from ADMIXTURE and PCA's too but keep in mind their limitations - comparing results from different ADMIXTURE analyses can be confusing if you don't know the components aren't actually the same thing in different runs.

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  • Forgive my ignorance, but when you say “Northeast Asia” – where are we talking about specifically? Is it inclusive or exclusive of your average Han Chinese person?

    And re: Dai links to Northeast Asia – does anyone have a good overview on this they could point me to?

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  • @Matt_
    @Twinkie, apologies, Han_N_China was actually 12:78:6 for SE_Asian:NE_Asian:Siberian.

    The Harappa Project's ADMIXTURE run (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdDhib1M5OE1wWENNb2haUFFWZzNBMEE) doesn't use a Korean sample. It has a couple of different Mongolian samples which vary are SE_Asian:NE_Asian:Siberian 7:62:23 (8:67:25) and 0:39:38 (0:51:49) for SE_Asian:NE_Asian:Siberian (with the balance being West Eurasian).

    on PCA koreans are prefect betwee n_chinese and japanese. the japanese are modeled as a 75% korean 25% jomon(ish) mix, so that makes sense (n_chinese and koreans are not that distant, but the 0.25 jomon drags japanese away from koreans).

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    • Replies: @Twinkie
    I wonder how North Chinese, Koreans, and Manchus compare. I mean full-blooded Manchus, as rare as they are nowadays.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • , apologies, Han_N_China was actually 12:78:6 for SE_Asian:NE_Asian:Siberian.

    The Harappa Project’s ADMIXTURE run (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdDhib1M5OE1wWENNb2haUFFWZzNBMEE) doesn’t use a Korean sample. It has a couple of different Mongolian samples which vary are SE_Asian:NE_Asian:Siberian 7:62:23 (8:67:25) and 0:39:38 (0:51:49) for SE_Asian:NE_Asian:Siberian (with the balance being West Eurasian).

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    on PCA koreans are prefect betwee n_chinese and japanese. the japanese are modeled as a 75% korean 25% jomon(ish) mix, so that makes sense (n_chinese and koreans are not that distant, but the 0.25 jomon drags japanese away from koreans).
    , @Twinkie

    Han_N_China was actually 12:78:6 for SE_Asian:NE_Asian:Siberian.
     
    That sounds more plausible than 0:78:12.

    I am still not convinced that "Japanese 0:99:1" is right. I read a while back that Koreans are almost entirely NE Asian and Siberian, but that Japanese actually have some SE Asian. Is that outdated?

    Where were the Mongolian samples taken?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Matt_
    With the Garo and Burmese ancestry mentioned, the Harappa Project splits East Asian ancestry a slightly different way into SE Asian, NE Asian and Siberian (roughly, there's also a Beringian component but it starts really far north).

    The Garo fit with a ratio of SE Asian:NE Asian:Siberian of 26:45:6, with the remaining 23 of their ancestry being essentially all S_Indian, with fractions of percents in other categories. If you scale that to an assumption of the 3 EAs summing to 100%, then 34:58:8.

    Similarly, the Burmanese samples have SE Asian:NE Asian:Siberian 28:42:6 (balance is 17% South Indian, like Garo, but also a bit more complex with some West Eurasian and Papuan components). To 100%, 36:55:8, for SE Asian, NE Asian, Siberian.

    That seems kind of interesting in light of the Dai samples scoring 71% in the SE Asian component, and Vietnamese samples 58%, while Cambodian also score 71% in the SE Asian component (or 84% of their membership in the 3 East Asian components).

    The Southern Chinese samples have membership of 33% SE Asian and 66% NE Asian.
    That doesn't seem totally surprising, as a contrast, given that Garo and Burmese are Sino-Tibetan languages.

    So even though the NE Asian and SE Asian clusters are closely related (even a small amount of S Indian would push two populations farther apart than large differences in the NE Asian vs SE Asian, genome wide), it seems like there's a dimension there on which the Garo and Burmanese samples differ from other SE Asian populations in affinity to Siberian and NE Asian populations that could be relevant for Bengalis.

    The Harappa Project's small (11) "Bengali" sample has SE_Asian:NE_Asian:Siberian of 7:6:2, which would scale over to 46:39:15. That's a little shaky as it's an extrapolation from a small percentage of the ancestry of a small sample, but seems kind of consistent with a relatively more Burman / Garo like East Asian ancestry in the Bengalis than a Cambodian like one (unless its something different that's fitting awkwardly into those categories).

    Another lot are the Aonaga population, from Nagaland, fit with 2:84:7 for SE Asian, NE Asian and Siberian. Compares with Tibet 0:78:12, Japanese 0:99:1 and North Chinese 0:78:12 for SE Asian, NE Asian, Siberian. By the measure of the Harappa Project's analysis, they're almost like transplants from Northeast Asia, with a low 7% of non-EA component.

    Compares with Tibet 0:78:12, Japanese 0:99:1 and North Chinese 0:78:12 for SE Asian, NE Asian, Siberian.

    Are Mongolians and Koreans closer to Tibetans and North Chinese or Japanese in their intermixtures?

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  • With the Garo and Burmese ancestry mentioned, the Harappa Project splits East Asian ancestry a slightly different way into SE Asian, NE Asian and Siberian (roughly, there’s also a Beringian component but it starts really far north).

    The Garo fit with a ratio of SE Asian:NE Asian:Siberian of 26:45:6, with the remaining 23 of their ancestry being essentially all S_Indian, with fractions of percents in other categories. If you scale that to an assumption of the 3 EAs summing to 100%, then 34:58:8.

    Similarly, the Burmanese samples have SE Asian:NE Asian:Siberian 28:42:6 (balance is 17% South Indian, like Garo, but also a bit more complex with some West Eurasian and Papuan components). To 100%, 36:55:8, for SE Asian, NE Asian, Siberian.

    That seems kind of interesting in light of the Dai samples scoring 71% in the SE Asian component, and Vietnamese samples 58%, while Cambodian also score 71% in the SE Asian component (or 84% of their membership in the 3 East Asian components).

    The Southern Chinese samples have membership of 33% SE Asian and 66% NE Asian.
    That doesn’t seem totally surprising, as a contrast, given that Garo and Burmese are Sino-Tibetan languages.

    So even though the NE Asian and SE Asian clusters are closely related (even a small amount of S Indian would push two populations farther apart than large differences in the NE Asian vs SE Asian, genome wide), it seems like there’s a dimension there on which the Garo and Burmanese samples differ from other SE Asian populations in affinity to Siberian and NE Asian populations that could be relevant for Bengalis.

    The Harappa Project’s small (11) “Bengali” sample has SE_Asian:NE_Asian:Siberian of 7:6:2, which would scale over to 46:39:15. That’s a little shaky as it’s an extrapolation from a small percentage of the ancestry of a small sample, but seems kind of consistent with a relatively more Burman / Garo like East Asian ancestry in the Bengalis than a Cambodian like one (unless its something different that’s fitting awkwardly into those categories).

    Another lot are the Aonaga population, from Nagaland, fit with 2:84:7 for SE Asian, NE Asian and Siberian. Compares with Tibet 0:78:12, Japanese 0:99:1 and North Chinese 0:78:12 for SE Asian, NE Asian, Siberian. By the measure of the Harappa Project’s analysis, they’re almost like transplants from Northeast Asia, with a low 7% of non-EA component.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Compares with Tibet 0:78:12, Japanese 0:99:1 and North Chinese 0:78:12 for SE Asian, NE Asian, Siberian.
     
    Are Mongolians and Koreans closer to Tibetans and North Chinese or Japanese in their intermixtures?
    , @Greg Pandatshang

    The Garo fit with a ratio of SE Asian:NE Asian:Siberian of 26:45:6, with the remaining 23 of their ancestry being essentially all S_Indian, with fractions of percents in other categories. If you scale that to an assumption of the 3 EAs summing to 100%, then 34:58:8.

    Similarly, the Burmanese samples have SE Asian:NE Asian:Siberian 28:42:6 (balance is 17% South Indian, like Garo, but also a bit more complex with some West Eurasian and Papuan components). To 100%, 36:55:8, for SE Asian, NE Asian, Siberian.

     

    I find this interesting in light of Blench and Post's work on Sino-Tibetan (or "Trans-Himalayan") language classification, for instance “Rethinking Sino-Tibetan phylogeny from the perspective of North East Indian languages” (which I've mentioned a couple times in comments on this blog previously). They argue that the origin of that macro-family is most likely in the vicinity of Arunachal Pradesh. Regarding the Burmese, they believe that Burmese is especially closely related to Chinese and Tibetan, so perhaps NE Asian genes in Burma could plausibly be predicted based on language and history. But Bodo-Garo does not seem to be especially closely related to anything outside of the NE India/Pakistan region (although Blench and Post do describe it as firmly part of Sino-Tibetan, which is more than you can say for a lot of the local languages that have been assumed to be of that stock). I wonder if it's possible that highlands Arunachal already had a lot of NE Asian ancestry as of 6 or 7 kya (or whenever Proto-Sino-Tibetan was spoken).
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  • @Razib Khan
    like nepal, assam was never conquered by muslims

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assam#Ancient

    In Manipur, Vaishnavism arrived in 1702, and was imported by Bishnupriya Bengalis from Barak Valley and Tripura.

    The kamarupa dynasty ruled Assam in 600 AD+, and appears to be contemporaneous to Guptas; however, there is no mention of Hinduism in Kamarupa pala dynasty, and Yuwan Chuang mentions Tibetan and Buddhist religious influences only. However the real Hindu switchover in Assam started after an Ahom king adopted Hinduism and christened him Jayadajha singh in 1554. Ahoms have Tai origin and not Indian.

    In summary, both, Assam and Manipur have a young Hindu age.

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  • @Douglas Knight
    You seem to have omitted the admixture bar chart. Maybe some interaction with the page cut?

    fixed. got yanked on an edit.

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  • “So next I ran Admixture. I ran supervised and unsupervised and they showed the same qualitative result. Below is a bar plot of the unsupervised result, K = 5″

    At that point, there used to be a bar chart. It is missing now.

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  • You seem to have omitted the admixture bar chart. Maybe some interaction with the page cut?

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    fixed. got yanked on an edit.
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  • @Vijay
    1. Should title be "How Bengalis got East Asian"?

    2. Multiple rounds of admixture, including the biggest one at about 500-600 AD.

    3. I wish to argue for a third and final admixture. A a significant part of East Bengal was under Ahom kingdom before Mughals invaded the meghna-Padma delta. The Ahom are the descendants of the ethnic Tai (Dai) people that accompanied the Tai prince Sukaphaa into the Brahmaputra valley about 1220. Before Mughal conquest, the region east of Brahmaputra river was more conducive to boats from the north and conquest from the east. The Mughal-Ahom wars of 17th century pushed the Ahom north and east, and east Bengal became both, Muslim and ASi-ANI dominated only after complete Mughal occupation.

    As you drive around the periphery of Bengal from Siliguri to Cooch-behar to Kalimpong to silchar to Cachar to Agartala to Chittagong, the Asian admixture changes so much from Tibetan to Dai to Khasi-Garo to Kuki. A multiple wave admixture model that correlates with history is needed.

    1. Should title be “How Bengalis got East Asian”?

    sort of. zack at harappa has west bengali data

    1) less admixture
    2) brahmins show very little in comparison to others (e.g., kayastha)

    but i only have bangladesh data.

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  • 1. Should title be “How Bengalis got East Asian”?

    2. Multiple rounds of admixture, including the biggest one at about 500-600 AD.

    3. I wish to argue for a third and final admixture. A a significant part of East Bengal was under Ahom kingdom before Mughals invaded the meghna-Padma delta. The Ahom are the descendants of the ethnic Tai (Dai) people that accompanied the Tai prince Sukaphaa into the Brahmaputra valley about 1220. Before Mughal conquest, the region east of Brahmaputra river was more conducive to boats from the north and conquest from the east. The Mughal-Ahom wars of 17th century pushed the Ahom north and east, and east Bengal became both, Muslim and ASi-ANI dominated only after complete Mughal occupation.

    As you drive around the periphery of Bengal from Siliguri to Cooch-behar to Kalimpong to silchar to Cachar to Agartala to Chittagong, the Asian admixture changes so much from Tibetan to Dai to Khasi-Garo to Kuki. A multiple wave admixture model that correlates with history is needed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    1. Should title be “How Bengalis got East Asian”?


    sort of. zack at harappa has west bengali data

    1) less admixture
    2) brahmins show very little in comparison to others (e.g., kayastha)

    but i only have bangladesh data.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Twinkie
    This is very fascinating, but if I might quibble a bit, you seem to be using East Asian and Southeast Asian interchangeably, which I found a bit confusing. Are you using the latter as a subset of the former (with Northeast Asian being the other subset)?

    yeah, i made a few changes. genetically compared to another world region (e.g., south asia) malays to japanese doesn’t make a different ;-) but yes, east and se asian are both subsets.

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  • @Karl Zimmerman
    I notice the Munda have essentially no West Asian ancestry. I know this is probably an artifact to some degree, given the Indian admixture component itself is a mixture of ANI and ASI. Still, I would think this might cast doubt on the Munda contributing in any significant way to the Bengali population. I say this because if you compare the West Asian proportion of the Telegu and the Bengalis, they are very close. Bengalis have slightly less West Asian it looks like - something closer to 20% than 30%. But they also have less Indian as well. Just eyeballing it, it looks like if you took out the Austro-Asiatic and Daic components from Bengalis, the ratio of West Asian to Indian would be damn close to identical.

    Of course, it may be that the resemblance is accidental - that Telugu is not a good fit in terms of the Indian/West Asian donor population. After all, the two groups are not geographically adjacent, and Bengalis, speaking Indo-European, should be expected to have somewhat higher West Asian proportions. If the West Asian donor population was significantly more West Asian shifted, it would allow for the Munda to contribute genetically to the Bengalis in some non-trivial way.

    a plausible model is that the munda are the product of:

    (ASI+ANI) + austro-asiatic.

    the bengalis, ((ASI+ANI) + indo-aryan)+munda)+burmese tribe)

    or, the munda element in bengalis might be part of the broader pattern on the north india plain. but i see no EDAR or signs of east asian admixture…

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  • @Numinous

    The author of The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204-1760 suggests that Islamic elites were instrumental in opening up these lands, and the peasant cultivators who came to cultivate the new territory under their leadership were easily convinced to change their religious affiliations, as the old organically developed institutions of Hinduism and Buddhism were poorly moored in the virgin lands.
     
    Razib, if this is so, then what's your theory about why Assam and Manipur, both further east and having more "eastern" ethic affiliations (at least to my eye) remained predominantly Hindu? Manipur seems to have a sizeable Christian minority (I think as a result of missionary activity during British rule), but few Muslims. And if I am not mistaken, Assam was a part of historical Bengal; the British separated Assam from Bengal in 1905.

    like nepal, assam was never conquered by muslims

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assam#Ancient

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    • Replies: @Vijay
    In Manipur, Vaishnavism arrived in 1702, and was imported by Bishnupriya Bengalis from Barak Valley and Tripura.

    The kamarupa dynasty ruled Assam in 600 AD+, and appears to be contemporaneous to Guptas; however, there is no mention of Hinduism in Kamarupa pala dynasty, and Yuwan Chuang mentions Tibetan and Buddhist religious influences only. However the real Hindu switchover in Assam started after an Ahom king adopted Hinduism and christened him Jayadajha singh in 1554. Ahoms have Tai origin and not Indian.

    In summary, both, Assam and Manipur have a young Hindu age.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I notice the Munda have essentially no West Asian ancestry. I know this is probably an artifact to some degree, given the Indian admixture component itself is a mixture of ANI and ASI. Still, I would think this might cast doubt on the Munda contributing in any significant way to the Bengali population. I say this because if you compare the West Asian proportion of the Telegu and the Bengalis, they are very close. Bengalis have slightly less West Asian it looks like – something closer to 20% than 30%. But they also have less Indian as well. Just eyeballing it, it looks like if you took out the Austro-Asiatic and Daic components from Bengalis, the ratio of West Asian to Indian would be damn close to identical.

    Of course, it may be that the resemblance is accidental – that Telugu is not a good fit in terms of the Indian/West Asian donor population. After all, the two groups are not geographically adjacent, and Bengalis, speaking Indo-European, should be expected to have somewhat higher West Asian proportions. If the West Asian donor population was significantly more West Asian shifted, it would allow for the Munda to contribute genetically to the Bengalis in some non-trivial way.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    a plausible model is that the munda are the product of:

    (ASI+ANI) + austro-asiatic.

    the bengalis, ((ASI+ANI) + indo-aryan)+munda)+burmese tribe)

    or, the munda element in bengalis might be part of the broader pattern on the north india plain. but i see no EDAR or signs of east asian admixture...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • This is very fascinating, but if I might quibble a bit, you seem to be using East Asian and Southeast Asian interchangeably, which I found a bit confusing. Are you using the latter as a subset of the former (with Northeast Asian being the other subset)?

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    yeah, i made a few changes. genetically compared to another world region (e.g., south asia) malays to japanese doesn't make a different ;-) but yes, east and se asian are both subsets.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • The author of The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204-1760 suggests that Islamic elites were instrumental in opening up these lands, and the peasant cultivators who came to cultivate the new territory under their leadership were easily convinced to change their religious affiliations, as the old organically developed institutions of Hinduism and Buddhism were poorly moored in the virgin lands.

    Razib, if this is so, then what’s your theory about why Assam and Manipur, both further east and having more “eastern” ethic affiliations (at least to my eye) remained predominantly Hindu? Manipur seems to have a sizeable Christian minority (I think as a result of missionary activity during British rule), but few Muslims. And if I am not mistaken, Assam was a part of historical Bengal; the British separated Assam from Bengal in 1905.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    like nepal, assam was never conquered by muslims

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assam#Ancient
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • What sort of a #secular country allows bloggers to be murdered in broad daylight. With such impunity #Bangladesh follows #Pakistan. — Raza Rumi (@Razarumi) May 12, 2015 By now you are aware that another blogger who happened to be an atheist was killed. The modus operandi is pretty familiar. It looks like there are now...
  • @Razib Khan
    it's complicated. within western societies atheism seems invariably correlated with social liberalism. OTOH, japan and east asia more generally have a lot more atheism as part of the demographic profile, but they are socially conservative on the whole. but even in places like the USA a substantial minority of atheists/agnostics lean to the right, and definitely libertarian (depending on survey/definition 20-40 percent).

    In my experience of living in English-Commonwealth countries (Australia, NZ, UK, Canada) I would tend to agree that a significant of English-speaking atheists tends to be libertarian – relatively right wing on economic issues and more left wing on social issues.

    In Continental Europe, the percentage of atheists who are socially conservative is probably a bit higher, particularly in countries like Austria and Switzerland which tend to be relatively conservative on some social issues such as immigration.

    Judging from that chart above, I could probably have a sensible discussion on social issues with an average Indian or South American, but I would probably be best keeping my mouth shut in most Muslim countries.

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  • @Drapetomaniac
    "that it takes nearly unanimous public belief in the legitimacy of a law"

    Belief in government, the idiot twin of that other great belief system: religion. They generally have to reflect the values of the followers and the values have to be selected for promoting the survival of those followers. Otherwise they are dead enders.

    Fortunately, forced belief in a religion is waning, but unfortunately, adherence to government belief systems is still enforced at the point of a gun. I hope the ability to opt out of government doesn't take as long as it did for religion.

    “I hope the ability to opt out of government doesn’t take as long as it did for religion.”

    Did you miss the bit about how a lack of uniform belief in the legitimacy of the law is the main thing separating us from prejudice fueled murders like the killings of atheists in Bangladesh?

    One of the ironies of libertarianism is that a system where people are free to make their own choices actually requires a state and a commitment to rule of law that is stronger in many respects than one that does not.

    Weak states and lack of respect for rule of law lead to anarchy, warlords, and subjugation of the individual to their extended family clan. People who live in the cultures of honor that emerge when rule of law is weak have little respect for personal autonomy.

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  • “I will point out though that when I posted about my own identity, as an atheist of Bangladeshi origin, that when put that on reddit the response by one individual was “Who cares”? Obviously there are many things in Bangladesh that warrant attention, but, targeted killing of a reviled minority is apparently not worth notice by some. Fair enough, I suppose.”

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/bangladesh/crude-oil-production
    Bangladesh Crude Oil Production: 4 BBL/D/1K
    Iraq Crude Oil Production: 3775 BBL/D/1K

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  • This is quite encouraging. I knew Bangladesh was more moderate than Pakistan, but I would still have imagined it would be closer to it on that spectrum than to Turkey.

    Country subreddits tend to be vastly more socially liberal than the general population. Case in point: The Greens would have won almost a third of the votes in /r/UnitedKingdom (under a proportional voting system). Erdogan would long since been out if Turkey were to limit voting to /r/Turkey members. So the reactions to you on /r/Bangladesh probably don’t say much.

    Incidentally, I do hope you write more about Bangladesh in the future. It is probably the major world country that I and many other people know least about per capita.

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  • @ohwilleke
    The biggest problem with the survey data is that it doesn't measure the appropriate remedy. It is one thing not to want to vote for an atheist or to disqualify an atheist from running. It is another to think that death to an atheist not running from office is O.K., which a significant proportion of people in Bangladesh and quite a few other countries in question do.

    The other problem is that it takes nearly unanimous public belief in the legitimacy of a law, even if that belief is very tepid, for a law to be viable for law enforcement to impose consistently. Even 10-15% of the population that refuses to honor the legitimacy of a law or to cooperate in enforcing it, is more than enough to render the law virtually irrelevant. This is also what makes enforcement of laws against vice, honor killing and domestic violence often very difficult to enforce even when majorities believe that these laws are legitimate.

    “that it takes nearly unanimous public belief in the legitimacy of a law”

    Belief in government, the idiot twin of that other great belief system: religion. They generally have to reflect the values of the followers and the values have to be selected for promoting the survival of those followers. Otherwise they are dead enders.

    Fortunately, forced belief in a religion is waning, but unfortunately, adherence to government belief systems is still enforced at the point of a gun. I hope the ability to opt out of government doesn’t take as long as it did for religion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ohwilleke
    "I hope the ability to opt out of government doesn’t take as long as it did for religion."

    Did you miss the bit about how a lack of uniform belief in the legitimacy of the law is the main thing separating us from prejudice fueled murders like the killings of atheists in Bangladesh?

    One of the ironies of libertarianism is that a system where people are free to make their own choices actually requires a state and a commitment to rule of law that is stronger in many respects than one that does not.

    Weak states and lack of respect for rule of law lead to anarchy, warlords, and subjugation of the individual to their extended family clan. People who live in the cultures of honor that emerge when rule of law is weak have little respect for personal autonomy.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    India’s position near the likes of Sweden shows that ubiquity of religious symbols in public places doesn’t necessarily pair with religious intolerance.

    Also shows that a country doesn’t have to achieve a high level of economic development before it can shed benighted attitudes. Of course, we’re grading on a curve here, the bar is pretty low.

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  • @PD Shaw
    On the "interpersonal trust" question in the World Values Survey:

    Most Trusty

    Norway: 148
    United States: 78
    Pakistan: 65
    Bangladesh: 47
    Trinidad & Tobago: 7

    Most Careful

    I am a bit surprised that Pakistan, an acronym, scores higher than Bangladesh, but I wonder if most Pakistanis have bought into the religious identity of the state, while not necessarily intermingling frequently w/ people of different backgrounds. Bangladesh seems to be failing on some level for necessary social cohesion.

    Having India as an archenemy that can always be blamed for problems probably helps cohesion in Pakistan.

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  • @unpc downunder
    I think one of the problems for atheists is that religious conservatives tend to assume we're all left-wing activists. However, there are plenty of atheists who are relatively right-wing or conservative on many issues. For example, I'm an atheist, moderate nationalist, and immigration restrictionist and I'm opposed to some aspects of feminism and gay rights. For example, I disagree with gay marriage and I believe that when a man and a woman with equal skills/qualifications apply for a full-time job, the man should get hiring preference.

    The main difference between me and a non-atheist who bases their politics on religion, is I base my politics on principles of moderation and not wanting to unduly anger the majority, and I take of account of findings about human behaviour from scientific studies. However, on the whole, I don't think my social views are all that different from most of the world's religious moderates.

    it’s complicated. within western societies atheism seems invariably correlated with social liberalism. OTOH, japan and east asia more generally have a lot more atheism as part of the demographic profile, but they are socially conservative on the whole. but even in places like the USA a substantial minority of atheists/agnostics lean to the right, and definitely libertarian (depending on survey/definition 20-40 percent).

    Read More
    • Replies: @unpc downunder
    In my experience of living in English-Commonwealth countries (Australia, NZ, UK, Canada) I would tend to agree that a significant of English-speaking atheists tends to be libertarian - relatively right wing on economic issues and more left wing on social issues.

    In Continental Europe, the percentage of atheists who are socially conservative is probably a bit higher, particularly in countries like Austria and Switzerland which tend to be relatively conservative on some social issues such as immigration.

    Judging from that chart above, I could probably have a sensible discussion on social issues with an average Indian or South American, but I would probably be best keeping my mouth shut in most Muslim countries.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • The term “Bonhoefferian gangplank” is erroneous as the quotation you allude to doesn’t really stem from Dietrich Bonhoeffer, but from Martin Niemoeller. There is no reason to assume that Bonhoeffer ever used this quotation.

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  • I think one of the problems for atheists is that religious conservatives tend to assume we’re all left-wing activists. However, there are plenty of atheists who are relatively right-wing or conservative on many issues. For example, I’m an atheist, moderate nationalist, and immigration restrictionist and I’m opposed to some aspects of feminism and gay rights. For example, I disagree with gay marriage and I believe that when a man and a woman with equal skills/qualifications apply for a full-time job, the man should get hiring preference.

    The main difference between me and a non-atheist who bases their politics on religion, is I base my politics on principles of moderation and not wanting to unduly anger the majority, and I take of account of findings about human behaviour from scientific studies. However, on the whole, I don’t think my social views are all that different from most of the world’s religious moderates.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    it's complicated. within western societies atheism seems invariably correlated with social liberalism. OTOH, japan and east asia more generally have a lot more atheism as part of the demographic profile, but they are socially conservative on the whole. but even in places like the USA a substantial minority of atheists/agnostics lean to the right, and definitely libertarian (depending on survey/definition 20-40 percent).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @T. Greer
    I am surprised to see that Mexico is more comfortable with atheists politicians than the USA is

    well, mexico has a long history of anti-clericalism. church and state have come to accommodation only slowly since the mexican revolution period.

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  • I am surprised to see that Mexico is more comfortable with atheists politicians than the USA is

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    well, mexico has a long history of anti-clericalism. church and state have come to accommodation only slowly since the mexican revolution period.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Robert Ford
    "While craven Leftists wring their hands over insults to Islamic minorities in their midst, Islamic civilization is wrecking havoc upon the liberties of millions."
    Good point. I could see Bill Maher trolling his audience with this example - not that it'll change anyone's mind.
    Tangential point: I always try to pinpoint the MO for this egalitarian crowd (my entire family:) Perhaps it's whipping a dead horse but I really think it's that they're exceedingly nice. No matter how directly I discuss topics like this with them it's like pulling teeth. It literally as if they feel like they'll die if they EVER admit that not all people and cultures are equal (or if they cast a negative light on another culture or people that they sense is "beneath" them.)
    Seems so British. The progressive debate strategy reminds me of people in these Scientology recruitment videos:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF1tPlgctss
    they'll talk a lot but they're not *really* saying anything.

    Yes I have the same problems with family friends even colleagues. I have learnt to avoid arguments about culture or free speech. Instead I try to emphasize that when you travel in the Islamic world you meet people exactly like them (educated, liberal, open minded etc), who want the freedoms that they take for granted, to criticize religion, to be an atheist or to argue for women’s equality.

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  • On the “interpersonal trust” question in the World Values Survey:

    Most Trusty

    Norway: 148
    United States: 78
    Pakistan: 65
    Bangladesh: 47
    Trinidad & Tobago: 7

    Most Careful

    I am a bit surprised that Pakistan, an acronym, scores higher than Bangladesh, but I wonder if most Pakistanis have bought into the religious identity of the state, while not necessarily intermingling frequently w/ people of different backgrounds. Bangladesh seems to be failing on some level for necessary social cohesion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @whahae
    Having India as an archenemy that can always be blamed for problems probably helps cohesion in Pakistan.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • The biggest problem with the survey data is that it doesn’t measure the appropriate remedy. It is one thing not to want to vote for an atheist or to disqualify an atheist from running. It is another to think that death to an atheist not running from office is O.K., which a significant proportion of people in Bangladesh and quite a few other countries in question do.

    The other problem is that it takes nearly unanimous public belief in the legitimacy of a law, even if that belief is very tepid, for a law to be viable for law enforcement to impose consistently. Even 10-15% of the population that refuses to honor the legitimacy of a law or to cooperate in enforcing it, is more than enough to render the law virtually irrelevant. This is also what makes enforcement of laws against vice, honor killing and domestic violence often very difficult to enforce even when majorities believe that these laws are legitimate.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
    "that it takes nearly unanimous public belief in the legitimacy of a law"

    Belief in government, the idiot twin of that other great belief system: religion. They generally have to reflect the values of the followers and the values have to be selected for promoting the survival of those followers. Otherwise they are dead enders.

    Fortunately, forced belief in a religion is waning, but unfortunately, adherence to government belief systems is still enforced at the point of a gun. I hope the ability to opt out of government doesn't take as long as it did for religion.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “While craven Leftists wring their hands over insults to Islamic minorities in their midst, Islamic civilization is wrecking havoc upon the liberties of millions.”
    Good point. I could see Bill Maher trolling his audience with this example – not that it’ll change anyone’s mind.
    Tangential point: I always try to pinpoint the MO for this egalitarian crowd (my entire family:) Perhaps it’s whipping a dead horse but I really think it’s that they’re exceedingly nice. No matter how directly I discuss topics like this with them it’s like pulling teeth. It literally as if they feel like they’ll die if they EVER admit that not all people and cultures are equal (or if they cast a negative light on another culture or people that they sense is “beneath” them.)
    Seems so British. The progressive debate strategy reminds me of people in these Scientology recruitment videos:

    they’ll talk a lot but they’re not *really* saying anything.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrew
    Yes I have the same problems with family friends even colleagues. I have learnt to avoid arguments about culture or free speech. Instead I try to emphasize that when you travel in the Islamic world you meet people exactly like them (educated, liberal, open minded etc), who want the freedoms that they take for granted, to criticize religion, to be an atheist or to argue for women's equality.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Years ago I recall a reader (perhaps Ikram or Conrad Barwa?) quip that I was basically Magid Iqbal from the novel White Teeth. Probably the biggest similarities are the fact that Magid is an atheist with a pro-Western outlook, and, he's a geneticist. But a major difference is that the Magid depicted in White Teeth...
  • @Twinkie

    i don’t put much stock in theology and historical memory. most people don’t remember anything they don’t want to remember, and make up what they want to remember.
     
    I think you under-appreciate the power of religious rituals and how they keep historical and communal memory alive through hundreds of years and even through millennia.

    Yes. There has been virtually no people anywhere that did not have some kind of belief system in the “creator” or some force vaster and smarter than anything on earth. The basic themes of the god-stories are actually pretty well remembered down through the generations. Atheists also persecute when in power and in status quo. Their victims not gotten as much coverage in popular culture of the 20th/21st centuries as some groups.
    Power corrupts. It’s just bloody human nature when possessed by ego.
    Generally, no one worries too much about the occassional Village Atheist. Omar Khayyam was one centuries ago.

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  • @Razib Khan
    the period when they had to take refuge in ethiopia. in any case, i don't put much stock in theology and historical memory. most people don't remember anything they don't want to remember, and make up what they want to remember.

    i don’t put much stock in theology and historical memory. most people don’t remember anything they don’t want to remember, and make up what they want to remember.

    I think you under-appreciate the power of religious rituals and how they keep historical and communal memory alive through hundreds of years and even through millennia.

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    • Replies: @dcite
    Yes. There has been virtually no people anywhere that did not have some kind of belief system in the "creator" or some force vaster and smarter than anything on earth. The basic themes of the god-stories are actually pretty well remembered down through the generations. Atheists also persecute when in power and in status quo. Their victims not gotten as much coverage in popular culture of the 20th/21st centuries as some groups.
    Power corrupts. It's just bloody human nature when possessed by ego.
    Generally, no one worries too much about the occassional Village Atheist. Omar Khayyam was one centuries ago.
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  • Atheists are rare enough in Bangladesh (just as they are in the U.S.), but fear of doing something that might brand one as an atheist could have a profound chilling effect on a much broader swath of the entire society. Almost everyone involved in STEM or real history, for example, is at risk.

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  • @ikram
    It was me in 2010. But its a pretty obvious comparison. A little unfair from an agreeableness perspective, but otherwise how many fictional atheist crusading westernized Bangladeshis with an interest in genetics are there?

    "Inevitable liberalism"!

    Maybe you are a little bit of a whig?

    also, i think conrad beat you to it. though i think that might have been on IM or something in the mid/early 2000s.

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  • @vijay
    I do not get this. The man who was killed was Hindu. Why do they care Avijit who was American was atheist or nor? If you do not believe in God and not a Muslim, are you still subject to islam's penalty?

    in islam the issue with atheism (and apostasy) is less about individual infraction, and the destabilization it causes to the body politic. in practice the same is really true in xtianity too, even if there is more emphasis on correct belief. so even though he was not from a muslim background his offenses were impacting muslims. this is why apostasy is analogized to treason.

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  • @ikram
    It was me in 2010. But its a pretty obvious comparison. A little unfair from an agreeableness perspective, but otherwise how many fictional atheist crusading westernized Bangladeshis with an interest in genetics are there?

    "Inevitable liberalism"!

    Maybe you are a little bit of a whig?

    trendline sort of fits.

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  • @Wizard of Oz
    Bangladesh does not compel an Australian's attention as often or as weightily as at least eight other Asian countries but I couldn't help noting that it may now have adopted the secular religion of cricket with much the same fervour as other subcontinental countries. And the fact -amusing to an Aussie - that the totally unfancied Bangladesh got into the World Cup quarter finals being played in February and March in Australia and New Zealand at the expense of England must surely have some appreciable impact on the national psyche and the weight of collective (or widely shared) emotions. While I have never had much time for pop sociology or the sociology of popular culture I toss in for your consideration in this ever more digitally connected world the question of sport's moderating or other influence. Even English and Scottish soccer hooligans may be some kind of buffer against religiously motivated violence...?

    i have one cousin in the tableegh, and another who is obsessed with cricket. the rules of both are opaque to me….

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  • @Anonymous
    Could it be that Islam has problems processing weakness for theological and historical reasons?

    Christianity had a few centuries of minority religion with periodical persecutions before becoming strong, when Christianity lost its power, Christians could think "perhaps we werent meant to have so much power, perhaps it was a deviation, perhaps we should have been more like in the early centuries, perhaps the Pope didnt have to rule a State, perhaps we shouldnt burn heretics and just try to convert people through street level preaching and apologetics, after all only a minority of Christians will avoid hell, we dont need to rule the world".
    Basically, they could retreat to early church mode.

    But Islam has nowhere to retreat to because it was born a strong religion, Mohammed was a conqueror who unified the Arabian tribes, and his successors conquered everything from Spain to India.

    Does it make theological sense for faithful muslims to be weaker than the infidels? Or they think that if Allah doesnt let them prevail it is because they arent being faithful enough?

    the period when they had to take refuge in ethiopia. in any case, i don’t put much stock in theology and historical memory. most people don’t remember anything they don’t want to remember, and make up what they want to remember.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    i don’t put much stock in theology and historical memory. most people don’t remember anything they don’t want to remember, and make up what they want to remember.
     
    I think you under-appreciate the power of religious rituals and how they keep historical and communal memory alive through hundreds of years and even through millennia.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • It was me in 2010. But its a pretty obvious comparison. A little unfair from an agreeableness perspective, but otherwise how many fictional atheist crusading westernized Bangladeshis with an interest in genetics are there?

    “Inevitable liberalism”!

    Maybe you are a little bit of a whig?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    trendline sort of fits.
    , @Razib Khan
    also, i think conrad beat you to it. though i think that might have been on IM or something in the mid/early 2000s.
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