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    General Ratko Mladic, now 75, was sentenced last week to life in prison by the NATO kangaroo court known as the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY). It is worth mentioning here that, just like Bosnian-Serb President Radovan Karadzic and Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic, Mladic was attested and handed over to this NATO...
  • So?

    So than who did the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo?

    Maybe this will help!

    https://thesaker.is/serbia-stolen-kosovo-multisubs-banned-czech-documentary/

    So now your eyes are open?
    No?

    Than wash your dirty face!

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  • @Ilyana_Rozumova
    @ obliged to pee all over the website.
    Here is another thing.
    Why your beloved gypsies did not go Croatia?
    Croatia is far better and far more prosperous , and with long beautiful seashore. Why? Why?
    Let me tell you why!
    I am eager to tell you why.
    Because Croatian did kill ever Jew every Gypsy, (regardless if they did call themselves Albanians.)
    And other undesirable elements in their country, under German occupation.
    Serbs were benevolent and kind, they let the Albanian Gypsies in.
    And Gypsies were truly thankful. They shoved their gratitude remarkably.
    They were killing them and were selling their organs to Israel.
    But we have to have sympathy to them.
    They had to make a living somehow.

    .

    God bless you, Ilyana! You are the epitome of “speaking your mind”. Please, keep writing! People need to hear your voice, and worldview. Your sentiments represent a large segment of society in former Yugoslavia. Your words bring a unique insight into what happened there, and why all in a sudden people wanted to go their own way.

    This is the Internet, and here you get freedom of speech. Please post on saker, too!

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  • @Obliged_to_Comment
    I love Unz Review, and think it performs a valuable role in giving unorthodox voices a platform. But this article by The Saker diminishes the credibility of the entire site.

    Mr Unz needed to ask The Saker - "When did you last visit Kosovo?" I think the answer would be either A) Never or B) 1988, give or take a year or two.

    The comments on Unz are usually informed and coherent. The comments beneath this article are generally jaw-droppingly ignorant, ill-informed and often incoherent.

    As I say, this article diminishes the entire Unz Review.

    I have travelled extensively in the Balkans, and have read accounts by Western travellers who came through the region last century, the 19th century and before. Most of Kosovo was Albanian, according to them.

    If you haven't travelled through the Balkans, please don't comment on the region.

    If you haven't read Edith Durham's books (all of them), please don't comment on Albania or Kosovo. Or John Cam Hobhouse. Or Edward Lear. Or the memoirs of the British officers who served in the Albania and Kosovo during WWII. Go to the Albanian history website of the late German historian Robert Elsie for beautifully translated original documents. Here's a taster from 1000-1018 AD -

    http://www.albanianhistory.net/1000_Origins-of-Nations/

    Here's a more recent entry, from 1999 -

    http://albanianhistory.net/1999_Hague-Tribunal_Gjakova/index.html

    For an idea of what Kosovo is like today, please watch this short film from an episode of the TV travel show 3 Op Reis, broadcast a couple of Sundays ago. The presenter, Geraldine Kemper, is easy on the eye and most of it is in English not Dutch -

    https://3opreis.bnnvara.nl/bestemming/pristina-prizren

    Here's the Albanian episode which was broadcast only last Sunday, again mostly in English -

    https://3opreis.bnnvara.nl/bestemming/noord-albanie

    Kosovo and Albania are wonderful to visit, with friendly hospitable people and incredible scenery. (The food in Albania is fantastic too. The best in the Balkans by a very long way - Slavs can't cook.) The Albanian capital, Tirana, has I believe the lowest level of street crime in continental Europe. Kosovan cities like Gjakova and Prizen are wonderful places to visit.

    The only way Kosovo can become Serbian (I won't say "again" as it's highly doubtful whether the area that is now Kosovo was ever majority Slav) is exactly the same way as in the late 1990s, and the Balkan Wars before World War I (!) - by killing and terrorising the majority Albanian population till they flee.

    Mr Unz, please read your contributors' articles more carefully, and consider the implications of what they are writing, before pressing "publish". It is OK to say no every now and then.

    You seem very fond of Albanians. Do you have failing organs and they promised you a free transplant of organs stolen from the Serbs or what? They don’t have access to Serbs anymore man. Don’t trust those butchers, they’ll probably try to transplant to you some organs taken from dogs. Although, judging by your comments, dog organ transplants could be a perfect fit for you, you filthy animal.

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  • @ obliged to pee all over the website.
    Here is another thing.
    Why your beloved gypsies did not go Croatia?
    Croatia is far better and far more prosperous , and with long beautiful seashore. Why? Why?
    Let me tell you why!
    I am eager to tell you why.
    Because Croatian did kill ever Jew every Gypsy, (regardless if they did call themselves Albanians.)
    And other undesirable elements in their country, under German occupation.
    Serbs were benevolent and kind, they let the Albanian Gypsies in.
    And Gypsies were truly thankful. They shoved their gratitude remarkably.
    They were killing them and were selling their organs to Israel.
    But we have to have sympathy to them.
    They had to make a living somehow.

    .

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jimmy
    God bless you, Ilyana! You are the epitome of "speaking your mind". Please, keep writing! People need to hear your voice, and worldview. Your sentiments represent a large segment of society in former Yugoslavia. Your words bring a unique insight into what happened there, and why all in a sudden people wanted to go their own way.

    This is the Internet, and here you get freedom of speech. Please post on saker, too!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Obliged_to_Comment
    I love Unz Review, and think it performs a valuable role in giving unorthodox voices a platform. But this article by The Saker diminishes the credibility of the entire site.

    Mr Unz needed to ask The Saker - "When did you last visit Kosovo?" I think the answer would be either A) Never or B) 1988, give or take a year or two.

    The comments on Unz are usually informed and coherent. The comments beneath this article are generally jaw-droppingly ignorant, ill-informed and often incoherent.

    As I say, this article diminishes the entire Unz Review.

    I have travelled extensively in the Balkans, and have read accounts by Western travellers who came through the region last century, the 19th century and before. Most of Kosovo was Albanian, according to them.

    If you haven't travelled through the Balkans, please don't comment on the region.

    If you haven't read Edith Durham's books (all of them), please don't comment on Albania or Kosovo. Or John Cam Hobhouse. Or Edward Lear. Or the memoirs of the British officers who served in the Albania and Kosovo during WWII. Go to the Albanian history website of the late German historian Robert Elsie for beautifully translated original documents. Here's a taster from 1000-1018 AD -

    http://www.albanianhistory.net/1000_Origins-of-Nations/

    Here's a more recent entry, from 1999 -

    http://albanianhistory.net/1999_Hague-Tribunal_Gjakova/index.html

    For an idea of what Kosovo is like today, please watch this short film from an episode of the TV travel show 3 Op Reis, broadcast a couple of Sundays ago. The presenter, Geraldine Kemper, is easy on the eye and most of it is in English not Dutch -

    https://3opreis.bnnvara.nl/bestemming/pristina-prizren

    Here's the Albanian episode which was broadcast only last Sunday, again mostly in English -

    https://3opreis.bnnvara.nl/bestemming/noord-albanie

    Kosovo and Albania are wonderful to visit, with friendly hospitable people and incredible scenery. (The food in Albania is fantastic too. The best in the Balkans by a very long way - Slavs can't cook.) The Albanian capital, Tirana, has I believe the lowest level of street crime in continental Europe. Kosovan cities like Gjakova and Prizen are wonderful places to visit.

    The only way Kosovo can become Serbian (I won't say "again" as it's highly doubtful whether the area that is now Kosovo was ever majority Slav) is exactly the same way as in the late 1990s, and the Balkan Wars before World War I (!) - by killing and terrorising the majority Albanian population till they flee.

    Mr Unz, please read your contributors' articles more carefully, and consider the implications of what they are writing, before pressing "publish". It is OK to say no every now and then.

    You have convinced me. Next time I will go to Europe I will go to see that Gypsy hive called Kosovo.
    You are not talking how prosperous that Gypsy hive is. OOOO they can cook, but Slavs cannot cook.
    That is indicating that you are an arsehole.
    Another thing. Mr Unz please read…………….
    That is clear indication of supporting censorship.
    And that means that you are a Zionist Globalist POS.

    BTW.
    Winds are changing already. Germans are fed up with Euro. They want Deutchmark back.
    They are fed up giving out continuously bakshish to all kind of shitholes like this Gypsy hive called Kosovo.
    Payback is coming soon

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  • @peterAUS
    Oh....this is very good.

    Good work.

    It's very nice to see this change of attitude when coming from exclusively ONE point of view.

    I have to say this is the first time I've seen this approach.

    So far, always, it's been:
    Starts with more or less civil post.
    Escalates fast into heated debate about genes and history.
    Slips, then, into arguments about the last bout ('98, '99 and aftermath) with emphasize on atrocities.
    And finishes with posting pictures of dead people.............

    This is next level and does look and feel good.

    Now, just can't wait for a Serb (expelled from Kosovo after '99) to post a comment.

    Just keep it civil guys.
    No macabre pictures. Combatants O.K. but no kids.

    Litmus test re ethnic conflict.

    War in Kosovo ’99.

    Both sides commited atrocities and war crimes.

    So, top Serb military guy , Pavkovic, got 22 years. Chief of the General Staff. And some guys down the chain of command.
    Top Albanian military guy, Sylejman Selimi, got zero years. And guys below him too.

    What would be your, civil, take on this, please?

    Feels right?
    Or unbalanced?

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Obliged_to_Comment
    I love Unz Review, and think it performs a valuable role in giving unorthodox voices a platform. But this article by The Saker diminishes the credibility of the entire site.

    Mr Unz needed to ask The Saker - "When did you last visit Kosovo?" I think the answer would be either A) Never or B) 1988, give or take a year or two.

    The comments on Unz are usually informed and coherent. The comments beneath this article are generally jaw-droppingly ignorant, ill-informed and often incoherent.

    As I say, this article diminishes the entire Unz Review.

    I have travelled extensively in the Balkans, and have read accounts by Western travellers who came through the region last century, the 19th century and before. Most of Kosovo was Albanian, according to them.

    If you haven't travelled through the Balkans, please don't comment on the region.

    If you haven't read Edith Durham's books (all of them), please don't comment on Albania or Kosovo. Or John Cam Hobhouse. Or Edward Lear. Or the memoirs of the British officers who served in the Albania and Kosovo during WWII. Go to the Albanian history website of the late German historian Robert Elsie for beautifully translated original documents. Here's a taster from 1000-1018 AD -

    http://www.albanianhistory.net/1000_Origins-of-Nations/

    Here's a more recent entry, from 1999 -

    http://albanianhistory.net/1999_Hague-Tribunal_Gjakova/index.html

    For an idea of what Kosovo is like today, please watch this short film from an episode of the TV travel show 3 Op Reis, broadcast a couple of Sundays ago. The presenter, Geraldine Kemper, is easy on the eye and most of it is in English not Dutch -

    https://3opreis.bnnvara.nl/bestemming/pristina-prizren

    Here's the Albanian episode which was broadcast only last Sunday, again mostly in English -

    https://3opreis.bnnvara.nl/bestemming/noord-albanie

    Kosovo and Albania are wonderful to visit, with friendly hospitable people and incredible scenery. (The food in Albania is fantastic too. The best in the Balkans by a very long way - Slavs can't cook.) The Albanian capital, Tirana, has I believe the lowest level of street crime in continental Europe. Kosovan cities like Gjakova and Prizen are wonderful places to visit.

    The only way Kosovo can become Serbian (I won't say "again" as it's highly doubtful whether the area that is now Kosovo was ever majority Slav) is exactly the same way as in the late 1990s, and the Balkan Wars before World War I (!) - by killing and terrorising the majority Albanian population till they flee.

    Mr Unz, please read your contributors' articles more carefully, and consider the implications of what they are writing, before pressing "publish". It is OK to say no every now and then.

    Oh….this is very good.

    Good work.

    It’s very nice to see this change of attitude when coming from exclusively ONE point of view.

    I have to say this is the first time I’ve seen this approach.

    So far, always, it’s been:
    Starts with more or less civil post.
    Escalates fast into heated debate about genes and history.
    Slips, then, into arguments about the last bout (’98, ’99 and aftermath) with emphasize on atrocities.
    And finishes with posting pictures of dead people………….

    This is next level and does look and feel good.

    Now, just can’t wait for a Serb (expelled from Kosovo after ’99) to post a comment.

    Just keep it civil guys.
    No macabre pictures. Combatants O.K. but no kids.

    Read More
    • Replies: @peterAUS
    Litmus test re ethnic conflict.

    War in Kosovo '99.

    Both sides commited atrocities and war crimes.

    So, top Serb military guy , Pavkovic, got 22 years. Chief of the General Staff. And some guys down the chain of command.
    Top Albanian military guy, Sylejman Selimi, got zero years. And guys below him too.

    What would be your, civil, take on this, please?

    Feels right?
    Or unbalanced?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I love Unz Review, and think it performs a valuable role in giving unorthodox voices a platform. But this article by The Saker diminishes the credibility of the entire site.

    Mr Unz needed to ask The Saker – “When did you last visit Kosovo?” I think the answer would be either A) Never or B) 1988, give or take a year or two.

    The comments on Unz are usually informed and coherent. The comments beneath this article are generally jaw-droppingly ignorant, ill-informed and often incoherent.

    As I say, this article diminishes the entire Unz Review.

    I have travelled extensively in the Balkans, and have read accounts by Western travellers who came through the region last century, the 19th century and before. Most of Kosovo was Albanian, according to them.

    If you haven’t travelled through the Balkans, please don’t comment on the region.

    If you haven’t read Edith Durham’s books (all of them), please don’t comment on Albania or Kosovo. Or John Cam Hobhouse. Or Edward Lear. Or the memoirs of the British officers who served in the Albania and Kosovo during WWII. Go to the Albanian history website of the late German historian Robert Elsie for beautifully translated original documents. Here’s a taster from 1000-1018 AD –

    http://www.albanianhistory.net/1000_Origins-of-Nations/

    Here’s a more recent entry, from 1999 –

    http://albanianhistory.net/1999_Hague-Tribunal_Gjakova/index.html

    For an idea of what Kosovo is like today, please watch this short film from an episode of the TV travel show 3 Op Reis, broadcast a couple of Sundays ago. The presenter, Geraldine Kemper, is easy on the eye and most of it is in English not Dutch –

    https://3opreis.bnnvara.nl/bestemming/pristina-prizren

    Here’s the Albanian episode which was broadcast only last Sunday, again mostly in English –

    https://3opreis.bnnvara.nl/bestemming/noord-albanie

    Kosovo and Albania are wonderful to visit, with friendly hospitable people and incredible scenery. (The food in Albania is fantastic too. The best in the Balkans by a very long way – Slavs can’t cook.) The Albanian capital, Tirana, has I believe the lowest level of street crime in continental Europe. Kosovan cities like Gjakova and Prizen are wonderful places to visit.

    The only way Kosovo can become Serbian (I won’t say “again” as it’s highly doubtful whether the area that is now Kosovo was ever majority Slav) is exactly the same way as in the late 1990s, and the Balkan Wars before World War I (!) – by killing and terrorising the majority Albanian population till they flee.

    Mr Unz, please read your contributors’ articles more carefully, and consider the implications of what they are writing, before pressing “publish”. It is OK to say no every now and then.

    Read More
    • Replies: @peterAUS
    Oh....this is very good.

    Good work.

    It's very nice to see this change of attitude when coming from exclusively ONE point of view.

    I have to say this is the first time I've seen this approach.

    So far, always, it's been:
    Starts with more or less civil post.
    Escalates fast into heated debate about genes and history.
    Slips, then, into arguments about the last bout ('98, '99 and aftermath) with emphasize on atrocities.
    And finishes with posting pictures of dead people.............

    This is next level and does look and feel good.

    Now, just can't wait for a Serb (expelled from Kosovo after '99) to post a comment.

    Just keep it civil guys.
    No macabre pictures. Combatants O.K. but no kids.
    , @Ilyana_Rozumova
    You have convinced me. Next time I will go to Europe I will go to see that Gypsy hive called Kosovo.
    You are not talking how prosperous that Gypsy hive is. OOOO they can cook, but Slavs cannot cook.
    That is indicating that you are an arsehole.
    Another thing. Mr Unz please read................
    That is clear indication of supporting censorship.
    And that means that you are a Zionist Globalist POS.

    BTW.
    Winds are changing already. Germans are fed up with Euro. They want Deutchmark back.
    They are fed up giving out continuously bakshish to all kind of shitholes like this Gypsy hive called Kosovo.
    Payback is coming soon
    , @Cyrano
    You seem very fond of Albanians. Do you have failing organs and they promised you a free transplant of organs stolen from the Serbs or what? They don’t have access to Serbs anymore man. Don’t trust those butchers, they’ll probably try to transplant to you some organs taken from dogs. Although, judging by your comments, dog organ transplants could be a perfect fit for you, you filthy animal.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I have talked to some Serb friends. So here is the clarification. Chetniks were paramilitary Serb organization (long time in existence) who wanted the return of the Serb king.
    After Communist takeover The Chetnik organization was dissolved because King had no chance to return anyway. Some of them joined the national army and some of them joined the national police force.
    So I was right along all the way. (But as I said people still did call them as Chetniks who were in police force.)

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  • I am new on this site so I do not know people here. But I have noticed that comments of some people do not warrant answer. You are one of them.

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  • @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Well I do not know what to say. Obviously you are married to your keyboard.
    I have to admit that I get easily furious, but than I can get easily friendly also.
    Ceta, or rather Chata in this case is is derived from cent 100 Latin centurion.
    I have no idea why in Yugoslavia and other Slavic countries did call policeman Chetnik.
    You have to ask some language expert.
    There is no such a rank in military as Chetnik. That would sound stupid to any Slav Language.
    Leader of Chata is called Poruchik or Nadporuchik and soldier is called vojak.
    You are testing my memory but I am sure I did not mention name Krajacic in any of my comment.
    ..................................................................................................
    You may ask anything from me except what you were asking.

    @Rozumova
    You are very funny. I really wonder just like Peter whether you have ever been to Serbia or Bosnia. “After creation of Yugoslavia Stalin and Tito insisted that on all territories the police force to be all Serbs, because Stalin did not trust anybody except Serbs.” ?????????????????????????????????????
    Didn´t read anything that idiotic in a long, long time.

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  • Well I do not know what to say. Obviously you are married to your keyboard.
    I have to admit that I get easily furious, but than I can get easily friendly also.
    Ceta, or rather Chata in this case is is derived from cent 100 Latin centurion.
    I have no idea why in Yugoslavia and other Slavic countries did call policeman Chetnik.
    You have to ask some language expert.
    There is no such a rank in military as Chetnik. That would sound stupid to any Slav Language.
    Leader of Chata is called Poruchik or Nadporuchik and soldier is called vojak.
    You are testing my memory but I am sure I did not mention name Krajacic in any of my comment.
    ……………………………………………………………………………………..
    You may ask anything from me except what you were asking.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Tom57
    @Rozumova
    You are very funny. I really wonder just like Peter whether you have ever been to Serbia or Bosnia. "After creation of Yugoslavia Stalin and Tito insisted that on all territories the police force to be all Serbs, because Stalin did not trust anybody except Serbs." ?????????????????????????????????????
    Didn´t read anything that idiotic in a long, long time.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ilyana_Rozumova
    I have lived through that period moron.
    And my older brother was in Communist party. So I heard and new everything what was happening.
    And you dare to say to me that everything I did write there is false.
    I do not need to read FN anything.

    I have lived through that period moron.
    And my older brother was in Communist party. So I heard and new everything what was happening.

    I see. An “inside” info. Apparently.
    That’s always in short supply here; perhaps you could help.

    I was apparently wrong. I thought you were Russian or similar, the name just doesn’t sound Serbian/Croat/Bosnan/Albanian/the rest over there.
    True, there were/are some Russians/Rusines/whatever there.

    So…what region you were in if I may ask? Vojvodina, Slavonia perhaps?

    You sure that Chetnik means “policeman”?
    I thought the word was derived from “ceta” (company sized military unit) during Serb-Bulgarian alliance against Turks. And later on the name represented Serbian nationalists, Serbian fighters under Mihailovic, and in the latest round paramilitary units from Serbian Democratic Party.

    As for “only Serbs as policeman” in Tito Yugoslavia, Stalin and such, how about Ivan Krajacic?
    I was quite sure, prior to your revelation, that he was a Croat.
    He was also a Minister of Interior in Croatia from 1946 to 1953…I thought. I must’ve been wrong then.

    Well…well….a man can learn new things every day.
    With ladies happy to help here.
    Thank you.

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  • @peterAUS
    Well....you could've posted all those three into one; just use paragraphs.

    As for

    You did not contest one of my claims! Why?
     
    For the same reasons I don't contest claims that the Earth is flat.

    This is in the same category:

    Chetnik in Serb is simply policeman.
    After creation of Yugoslavia Stalin and Tito insisted that on all territories the police force to be all Serbs, because Stalin did not trust anybody except Serbs.
     
    Nothing you wrote in that paragraph is correct.

    Why you don't read a couple of books about that part of the world.
    True, all are biased. That's what research is all about.

    Judging from your attitude re Serbs this would be a good start:
    https://www.amazon.com/Fools-Crusade-Yugoslavia-Western-Delusions/dp/158367084X

    And then I'd suggest going through transcripts from Hague. Pick a case and go through all that, page by page. Skip the legal procedures and carefully read all the rest. Especially cross-examinations of witnesses.

    Just an idea.

    I have lived through that period moron.
    And my older brother was in Communist party. So I heard and new everything what was happening.
    And you dare to say to me that everything I did write there is false.
    I do not need to read FN anything.

    Read More
    • Replies: @peterAUS

    I have lived through that period moron.
    And my older brother was in Communist party. So I heard and new everything what was happening.
     
    I see. An "inside" info. Apparently.
    That's always in short supply here; perhaps you could help.

    I was apparently wrong. I thought you were Russian or similar, the name just doesn't sound Serbian/Croat/Bosnan/Albanian/the rest over there.
    True, there were/are some Russians/Rusines/whatever there.

    So...what region you were in if I may ask? Vojvodina, Slavonia perhaps?

    You sure that Chetnik means "policeman"?
    I thought the word was derived from "ceta" (company sized military unit) during Serb-Bulgarian alliance against Turks. And later on the name represented Serbian nationalists, Serbian fighters under Mihailovic, and in the latest round paramilitary units from Serbian Democratic Party.

    As for "only Serbs as policeman" in Tito Yugoslavia, Stalin and such, how about Ivan Krajacic?
    I was quite sure, prior to your revelation, that he was a Croat.
    He was also a Minister of Interior in Croatia from 1946 to 1953...I thought. I must've been wrong then.

    Well...well....a man can learn new things every day.
    With ladies happy to help here.
    Thank you.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ilyana_Rozumova
    You did not contest one of my claims! Why?
    Are you an editor?

    Well….you could’ve posted all those three into one; just use paragraphs.

    As for

    You did not contest one of my claims! Why?

    For the same reasons I don’t contest claims that the Earth is flat.

    This is in the same category:

    Chetnik in Serb is simply policeman.
    After creation of Yugoslavia Stalin and Tito insisted that on all territories the police force to be all Serbs, because Stalin did not trust anybody except Serbs.

    Nothing you wrote in that paragraph is correct.

    Why you don’t read a couple of books about that part of the world.
    True, all are biased. That’s what research is all about.

    Judging from your attitude re Serbs this would be a good start:

    https://www.amazon.com/Fools-Crusade-Yugoslavia-Western-Delusions/dp/158367084X

    And then I’d suggest going through transcripts from Hague. Pick a case and go through all that, page by page. Skip the legal procedures and carefully read all the rest. Especially cross-examinations of witnesses.

    Just an idea.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    I have lived through that period moron.
    And my older brother was in Communist party. So I heard and new everything what was happening.
    And you dare to say to me that everything I did write there is false.
    I do not need to read FN anything.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I did read a few of your comments. You are gatekeeper for Anglo Zionist empire.
    You write stupidities (very nicely though) And no facts.
    You are a Globalist POS.

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  • You mean the quality of copy and paste from everywhere.
    I did notice tendency in most of the people that if something is copied and pasted then that is absolute
    holy truth. You are naive and insignificant.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • You did not contest one of my claims! Why?
    Are you an editor?

    Read More
    • Replies: @peterAUS
    Well....you could've posted all those three into one; just use paragraphs.

    As for

    You did not contest one of my claims! Why?
     
    For the same reasons I don't contest claims that the Earth is flat.

    This is in the same category:

    Chetnik in Serb is simply policeman.
    After creation of Yugoslavia Stalin and Tito insisted that on all territories the police force to be all Serbs, because Stalin did not trust anybody except Serbs.
     
    Nothing you wrote in that paragraph is correct.

    Why you don't read a couple of books about that part of the world.
    True, all are biased. That's what research is all about.

    Judging from your attitude re Serbs this would be a good start:
    https://www.amazon.com/Fools-Crusade-Yugoslavia-Western-Delusions/dp/158367084X

    And then I'd suggest going through transcripts from Hague. Pick a case and go through all that, page by page. Skip the legal procedures and carefully read all the rest. Especially cross-examinations of witnesses.

    Just an idea.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Here is the truth about Bosnia, Srebenica et all.
    Bosnians are very docile peaceful and complacent people. (with funny clothes.)

    (Here is a note to Saker:
    Chetnik in Serb is simply policeman.
    After creation of Yugoslavia Stalin and Tito insisted that on all territories the police force to be all Serbs, because Stalin did not trust anybody except Serbs. Although leader of partisans was Croatian Tito (exceptional stud who kept screwing all partisan ladies,) practically all his subordinates were communist Serbs.

    Ustasha was Croatian paramilitary unit that was ethnically cleansing Croatia from Gypsies Jews and
    even Serbs.

    Continuing with a main theme.
    Bosnians certainly are not rabble-raisers.
    US was dead set on breaking up Yugoslavia. So through his seventeen intelligence agencies,
    hired several thousand Muslim terrorists from Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Chechnya.
    (At those times they were not labeled terrorists. They were called heroic mujaheddin.)
    These were the ones that started killing Serb policeman (Chetniks) and eventually started ethnic
    cleansing of Bosnia. That continued until they reached densely populated Serb enclave in Bosnia.
    How many Bosnian Muslims did join this savage force of American mercenaries we do not know.
    But the fact is that these were mercenaries, and so the Geneva convention certainly does not apply.

    Impressive.

    I am not quite sure are you doing an (epic) trolling here or actually do believe what you’ve written in these two posts.

    If former, well, it’s a bit crude; you could’ve omitted a couple of blatant errors and, besides, the best way to troll topics like this is simply to strongly favor one side. Ensuing…debate…..is then interesting to watch.

    If later, though, well……..it’s fine. If this type of writing helps no prob.

    Still, the topic is serious and we, really, have to keep some quality here.
    That’s why I just had to write this comment.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Here is the truth about Bosnia, Srebenica et all.
    Bosnians are very docile peaceful and complacent people. (with funny clothes.)

    (Here is a note to Saker:
    Chetnik in Serb is simply policeman.
    After creation of Yugoslavia Stalin and Tito insisted that on all territories the police force to be all Serbs, because Stalin did not trust anybody except Serbs. Although leader of partisans was Croatian Tito (exceptional stud who kept screwing all partisan ladies,) practically all his subordinates were communist Serbs.

    Ustasha was Croatian paramilitary unit that was ethnically cleansing Croatia from Gypsies Jews and
    even Serbs.

    Continuing with a main theme.
    Bosnians certainly are not rabble-raisers.
    US was dead set on breaking up Yugoslavia. So through his seventeen intelligence agencies,
    hired several thousand Muslim terrorists from Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Chechnya.
    (At those times they were not labeled terrorists. They were called heroic mujaheddin.)
    These were the ones that started killing Serb policeman (Chetniks) and eventually started ethnic
    cleansing of Bosnia. That continued until they reached densely populated Serb enclave in Bosnia.
    How many Bosnian Muslims did join this savage force of American mercenaries we do not know.
    But the fact is that these were mercenaries, and so the Geneva convention certainly does not apply.

    Read More
    • Replies: @peterAUS
    Impressive.

    I am not quite sure are you doing an (epic) trolling here or actually do believe what you've written in these two posts.

    If former, well, it's a bit crude; you could've omitted a couple of blatant errors and, besides, the best way to troll topics like this is simply to strongly favor one side. Ensuing...debate.....is then interesting to watch.

    If later, though, well........it's fine. If this type of writing helps no prob.

    Still, the topic is serious and we, really, have to keep some quality here.
    That's why I just had to write this comment.
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  • I am convinced that title of this article is silly. And I tell you why.
    Last news I had from so called Independent State of Kosovo a quarter century ago was that Kosovo Gypsies were killing Serbs and selling the body organs to Israel. There is no news from Kosovo anymore.
    There is well know fact about Gypsies that they were killing people with golden teeth or golden fillings. and pulling out golden teeth and selling them to Jewish Goldsmiths.
    I am certain that all of them moved to West. I bet anything that if You visit Kosovo today you would find only abandoned ruined houses. Broken fences and fields overgrowing with weeds.
    If the Serbs move back there they do not need to liberate it. not many souls are there anymore.
    They need to settle it again.

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  • Archaeologists have come to the conclusion that these regions were inhabited from the middle of the third millennium BC by Indo-European people who spoke a Proto-Greek language.

    Here I did tell you!!!!! Albanians are Thugs from India.

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  • @My2cents
    The Eric Margolis peace is one American/Canadian peace of propaganda.
    Milosevic was found innocent of all allegations.
    The 8000 Muslim deaths was an invention, a cruel hoax.
    Every war crimes tribunal since WW2 served solely to point the finger at one party and to cover up the war crimes of US/NATO

    The 8000 Muslim deaths was an invention, a cruel hoax.

    Correct.

    But, 3500 Muslim deaths, apparently, wasn’t either an invention or a cruel hoax.

    Of those, apparently, around 1000 were executed in/around Srebrenica proper, the rest, 2500, were killed along the escape route to Tuzla.

    Those 1000 executed were herded, lined up in groups, and shot.

    Those 2500 killed were a mix of shelling, infantry combat and, again, executing captured on/around the spot.

    Even Serbs don’t dispute that. They call it “crime”, but not “genocide” and dispute the numbers.
    Even the most apologetic among them do concede to around 1000 (like, it was revenge killings, on spot, of around that number).Now, how can 1000 men be killed in a spur of a moment, in a fit of rage, by some guys hell bent on revenge/retribution is another matter………

    Whoever wants (probably 1 % here, tops…) to keep digging, an interesting bit, perhaps:
    Serbs, themselves, wanted those responsible in Srebrenica put to trial, but, the “International Community” had other ideas.

    The same applies to similar crimes in Kosovo.
    Both sides did them.
    But……

    The “International Community” approach to assigning the blame, putting people to trial, and especially sentencing, has been…………..peculiar, though. To say the least.

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  • @anony-mouse
    Golly gosh I don't know what to think.

    Just a little more than a week ago:

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/11/eric-margolis/remembering-bosnias-horrors/

    The Eric Margolis peace is one American/Canadian peace of propaganda.
    Milosevic was found innocent of all allegations.
    The 8000 Muslim deaths was an invention, a cruel hoax.
    Every war crimes tribunal since WW2 served solely to point the finger at one party and to cover up the war crimes of US/NATO

    Read More
    • Replies: @peterAUS

    The 8000 Muslim deaths was an invention, a cruel hoax.
     
    Correct.

    But, 3500 Muslim deaths, apparently, wasn't either an invention or a cruel hoax.

    Of those, apparently, around 1000 were executed in/around Srebrenica proper, the rest, 2500, were killed along the escape route to Tuzla.

    Those 1000 executed were herded, lined up in groups, and shot.

    Those 2500 killed were a mix of shelling, infantry combat and, again, executing captured on/around the spot.

    Even Serbs don't dispute that. They call it "crime", but not "genocide" and dispute the numbers.
    Even the most apologetic among them do concede to around 1000 (like, it was revenge killings, on spot, of around that number).Now, how can 1000 men be killed in a spur of a moment, in a fit of rage, by some guys hell bent on revenge/retribution is another matter.........

    Whoever wants (probably 1 % here, tops...) to keep digging, an interesting bit, perhaps:
    Serbs, themselves, wanted those responsible in Srebrenica put to trial, but, the "International Community" had other ideas.

    The same applies to similar crimes in Kosovo.
    Both sides did them.
    But......

    The "International Community" approach to assigning the blame, putting people to trial, and especially sentencing, has been..............peculiar, though. To say the least.
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  • @Ilyana_Rozumova
    So?
    Who were the 90 % ?

    Albanians, who were, by the way, over 60% of the population therein in 1948. Their presence there wasn’t some plot by Tito.

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  • @Ilyana_Rozumova
    You are not capable to get me either.
    Albania is the name of the state. Serbia is a name of state. Serbs, Croats, Bosnians are ethnic Slavs.
    What is the ethnic origin of Albanians?
    How Albanians did get into Serbia? Did they invade Serbia?
    Which year was the battle when Albanians defeated Serbia and some of them settled there.
    Wikipedia is idiotic in this case. And those following Wikipedia are double idiots.

    What is the ethnic origin of Albanians?

    mildly curious I did a quick search

    https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/12554/why-were-albanians-the-only-nation-in-the-balkans-who-converted-to-islam-during

    there’s some interesting info there

    let me ask you..

    if you looked at an Albanian and a Serb, could you tell them apart by looking?

    from the link:

    Over the next couple of centuries, the remaining Albanian population was further diluted through the immigration of Muslims from elsewhere in the Ottoman empire.

    did the Albanians suffer what famously (True Romance) happened to the blue eyed blondes of Sicily?

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  • @Rurik
    lightly perusing this thread

    totally idiotic that Albanians are white Europeans,
     
    whenever someone asks me who is white, I always respond that such things have been decided for us in the West

    basically it's anyone who it is legal to discriminate against in ZUSA (and elsewhere in the Zio-West), and that would definitely include Albanians, (like the Belushi brothers for instance), who are definitely white based on the legal description used to discriminate against all white men

    http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/81/f2/1b/81f21b4c434ac1ece02b789fd655ac7b.jpg

    if you were born in the ZUSA, then you can cry that you're Albanian all day long, and they'd still tell you to take your white arse to the back of the line.

    Did Wikipedia heard about Enver Hodja?
    Check it out.
    And Belushi brothers are not Albanians. They are Hungarian Gypsies. (one overdosed.)

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  • @Rurik
    lightly perusing this thread

    totally idiotic that Albanians are white Europeans,
     
    whenever someone asks me who is white, I always respond that such things have been decided for us in the West

    basically it's anyone who it is legal to discriminate against in ZUSA (and elsewhere in the Zio-West), and that would definitely include Albanians, (like the Belushi brothers for instance), who are definitely white based on the legal description used to discriminate against all white men

    http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/81/f2/1b/81f21b4c434ac1ece02b789fd655ac7b.jpg

    if you were born in the ZUSA, then you can cry that you're Albanian all day long, and they'd still tell you to take your white arse to the back of the line.

    You are not capable to get me either.
    Albania is the name of the state. Serbia is a name of state. Serbs, Croats, Bosnians are ethnic Slavs.
    What is the ethnic origin of Albanians?
    How Albanians did get into Serbia? Did they invade Serbia?
    Which year was the battle when Albanians defeated Serbia and some of them settled there.
    Wikipedia is idiotic in this case. And those following Wikipedia are double idiots.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    What is the ethnic origin of Albanians?
     
    mildly curious I did a quick search

    https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/12554/why-were-albanians-the-only-nation-in-the-balkans-who-converted-to-islam-during

    there's some interesting info there

    let me ask you..

    if you looked at an Albanian and a Serb, could you tell them apart by looking?

    from the link:

    Over the next couple of centuries, the remaining Albanian population was further diluted through the immigration of Muslims from elsewhere in the Ottoman empire.
     
    did the Albanians suffer what famously (True Romance) happened to the blue eyed blondes of Sicily?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Cyrano

    One day we may find out that the lynching of the Serbian nation by the West played a crucial role in getting Vladimir Putin to power.
     
    Saker, you should know better than this. Bombing of Yugoslavia DID play a crucial role in bringing Putin to power. That's almost an indisputable fact. If the neocons are not pleased with Putin being a leader in Russia today - they should know who do they have to blame for that.

    In a little bit of convoluted logic, the bombing of Yugoslavia saved Russia. Can you imagine what few more years in power of that buffoon Yeltsin could have done to Russia?

    The aggression against Yugoslavia was a wake-up call for all Russians. It showed them that west is an enemy and that no deals that would benefit Russia are possible with the west.

    The bombing of Yugoslavia is a little bit of history repeating. In the spring of 1941, the Serbs took to the streets of Belgrade and ripped apart the unpopular pact with Nazi Germany - forcing Germany to attack their former "ally" Yugoslavia. The Serbs are still proud of this. They believe that the attack on Yugoslavia in 1941 saved the USSR. How? Well by delaying the attack on USSR. If the Serbs haven't forced Nazi Germany to attack them, Germany would have invaded USSR sooner than June 22, maybe as early as late May 1941. If the Germans had couple of extra months of nice weather to play with, the whole war in the east might have turned out differently.

    As I said, history repeating itself. Serbia saving Russia.

    You are the only one with whom I generally agree.
    Except in 1941 there was no Yugoslavia. Only Greater Serbia.
    Yugoslavia was created after war by Stalin on the request of Tito with representation of Communist parties of different states.

    Concerning comments on this article are almost all totally idiotic.

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  • @survey-of-disinfo

    One day we may find out that the lynching of the Serbian nation by the West played a crucial role in getting Vladimir Putin to power.
     
    Too delicious: https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Document:Putin_the_Good_Goy

    That, above, is one account of "getting" Pooti-Poot to "power".

    Serbian says:


    Goodbye, Russia. We Serbs can no longer stand with you in any sort of alliance, until you're once again able to rule yourselves, until you stop trading your allies, selling them out for pennies and empty slogans. We can't be with you until you free yourself of your anti-Slavic extremists...

    Goodbye, Russia. We love you more than ourselves. For us you're a myth, like Kosovo. But as it turns out, this myth is a myth of a Russia which doesn't exist.

    (Bozidar Trifunov Mitrovic. "The Genocide of the Romans and Slavs".)
     
    "Saker", you are so transparent. My skin crawls just reading snippets of your work. Does your skin crawl when you write it?

    “Saker”, you are so transparent. My skin crawls just reading snippets of your work. Does your skin crawl when you write it?

    Haha…lol

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  • @peterAUS

    I maintain: unless somebody from outside comes in and imposes order there will never be any development in the Balkans. Who can do it? The Empire of Chaos? No way. They just wanted their camp bondsteel and that is all they achieved.
    The Russians? No way as long as they identify solely with the Serbs.
    The EU? Much to divided itself.
    I am afraid that there is no good future for the moment.
     
    Well....if there was an easy solution to all that we would've already seen it.

    My take is: a man doesn't live by bread alone. Especially in places with a long history of oppression and confrontation. There are elements of pride, self-esteem, feelings of belonging, spiritual needs etc.
    You said, for example:

    These empires including the Turkish empire were much more tolerant that the mini nation states that succeeded them.
     
    Croats and Serbs do remember "the right of the first night" and the "blood tax", though. Among other things, of course.
    As Irish remember "Irish famine", for example.

    Actually, there is no need to go that far into history.
    25 years ago it was enough to have a wrong name and be killed on a spot, let alone "ethnically cleansed" from a land your ancestors had lived for hundreds of years. Longer than US exists as a sovereign state. Or Germany. Such memories don't go away so easy.
    I mean...haha.....if Jews (and the World, apparently) can't forget Holocaust(TM) why any of those three groups in Bosnia should forget their experience? Or Serbs/Albanians in Kosovo for that matter. It was, what, 18 year ago?
    Or it is true that some victims were/are holly and some other are worthless?
    Sounds racist, doesn't it?
    It would be funny if it wasn't as it is. Schizophrenic probably describes it well enough.

    As things go as they apparently do I suspect we'll have a next round of "troubles" in not so distant future.
    How will that unravel there, and in the wider area, I don't know.

    Man is not as rational as man (and economists) like to think. There is always an element of irrational chaos in human affairs and solutions to complex problems, like in the Balkans, are never perfect or permanent.

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  • @Art Deco
    Kosovo was always part of Serbia.

    Serbs haven't been a plurality in Kosovo since some time around 1875 and might have been 1/10th of the population by 1990.

    So?
    Who were the 90 % ?

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Albanians, who were, by the way, over 60% of the population therein in 1948. Their presence there wasn't some plot by Tito.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Are somehow mentally challenged?
    Albanians have a republic. They had a republic like forever.
    And their republic is called Albania. It was always independent and was newer part of Yugoslavia.
    Kosovo was always part of Serbia. Many gypsies with permission of Yugoslavian government under leadership of Croatian president Tito let Gypsies to settle in Kosovo.

    These are basic facts! I was under impression that everybody know that!

    Kosovo was always part of Serbia.

    Serbs haven’t been a plurality in Kosovo since some time around 1875 and might have been 1/10th of the population by 1990.

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    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    So?
    Who were the 90 % ?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Are somehow mentally challenged?
    Albanians have a republic. They had a republic like forever.
    And their republic is called Albania. It was always independent and was newer part of Yugoslavia.
    Kosovo was always part of Serbia. Many gypsies with permission of Yugoslavian government under leadership of Croatian president Tito let Gypsies to settle in Kosovo.

    These are basic facts! I was under impression that everybody know that!

    Sorry Typo:
    Correct sentence:

    Are you somehow mentally challenged?

    ……..never……….

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  • @Jimmy
    Hi Peter,

    You seem to own the “victim” side...... i.e, the serbian side. Funny, really, as the albanians are the ones who suffered and lost the most. They (and plenty others who saw what happened seem to agree...) see themselves as the victims. They wanted to be a republic, for decades, and Slobo striped them even from “autonomy”. The had to walk on the mountains....children and women, fleeing from the barbarians whomput them in mass graves.

    Yet, your tone appears like “no way we would ever agree to peace with albanians” ! You even find it funny! Saker articles seem to also have empowered you. Well, that is unfortunate, and delusional, but not unexpected. Albanians have clearly seen far worse from you, and your kind, and are prepared for anything. You can certainly count on that!

    Just in case you wise up, life in hate is no life. So, I wish you all the best.

    Jimmy

    Are somehow mentally challenged?
    Albanians have a republic. They had a republic like forever.
    And their republic is called Albania. It was always independent and was newer part of Yugoslavia.
    Kosovo was always part of Serbia. Many gypsies with permission of Yugoslavian government under leadership of Croatian president Tito let Gypsies to settle in Kosovo.

    These are basic facts! I was under impression that everybody know that!

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    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Sorry Typo:
    Correct sentence:

    Are you somehow mentally challenged?

    ........never..........
    , @Art Deco
    Kosovo was always part of Serbia.

    Serbs haven't been a plurality in Kosovo since some time around 1875 and might have been 1/10th of the population by 1990.
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  • @Jimmy
    Last time people talked like you, albanians ended up in mass graves! I appeal to your humanity to not spread hate and incite genocide. Many innocents have lost their lifes from these histerical longings.

    Otherwise, the albanians (wherever they live.... and there is a lot of them.......) are prepared for anything, and ready to defend. Things are indeed very very different now. You, saker, and all the rest of the zoo animals that feel bondsteeled in a cage, would be welcomed to see it for yourself, if you dare.

    It sounds rather that Albanians are ready to attack again.

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  • @peterAUS
    Well...apparently I am making some progress on this site.

    Just not so long ago I was defined as Croat and, consequently, a Serb hater.

    Shows how perceptive people are here.

    The funny part is how you and your types don't see how schizophrenic your post is.

    "We are all the same"
    but
    "We are Albanians and they are Serbs"

    "We have to live in peace"
    but
    "We have to fight for our independence"

    And the most important, as soon as somebody hints of not agreeing with your...."all love"....message that person must be a Serb.

    And you really don't even see that.

    THAT is funny.

    What is not funny is how THIN that layer or civility is over there....your types included.

    Your first post could've deceived some naive souls around, but your second is starting to show the true colors.

    You shouldn't be afraid of showing your true colors. though, The Empire is behind you; you have all the moral rights there, apparently.
    You are the good guys.
    Apparently.

    Last time people talked like you, albanians ended up in mass graves! I appeal to your humanity to not spread hate and incite genocide. Many innocents have lost their lifes from these histerical longings.

    Otherwise, the albanians (wherever they live…. and there is a lot of them…….) are prepared for anything, and ready to defend. Things are indeed very very different now. You, saker, and all the rest of the zoo animals that feel bondsteeled in a cage, would be welcomed to see it for yourself, if you dare.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    It sounds rather that Albanians are ready to attack again.
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  • @Philip Owen
    Why are you so obsessed with the British Empire? Do you secretly want to be British?

    Yeah genius, that’s it – I must be “secretly wanting to be British”. Anyone who is repulsed by the vile Russophobic Anglo chauvinism of you and your ilk, must “secretly want to be British”. With this level of intelligence, you have a blindingly bright future ahead of you!

    The real question here is: Why are YOU so obsessed with hating, denigrating, and trying to destroy Russia (and China, and Serbia, and the other Eastern European countries, and other independent-minded countries, and…and…)? Why this psychotic compulsion for “sticking it” at all costs to Russia, one of the great historical European nations, while your own little island’s demographics is going down the drain and the urban areas of once-great Britain are filled with gangs of Pakistanis raping and sexually enslaving young British women? Why this antipathy and hatred? WHY? Deep-seated conditioning and Cold War mental habits that you cannot overcome? Sheer malice? Petty jealousy? Irrational psychopathic tribalism? A neurotic addiction to playing geopolitical “games”, with Russia as the eternal unchanging adversary? What is it, exactly?

    NEOCON IDIOT.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Jimmy
    Your article is inflammatory and implies genocide/hate mongering towards a whole ethnic group: Albanians. The region needs a way to see forward, not backward. Living together in peace, for sake of the younger generations, should be priority. Sad to see these comments here.

    Otherwise, if I may continue with your logic......Indeed, at the moment, the Serbs are "Bondsteeled" in a cage because some of their people were savages towards all of their neighbors, and this is how we have a temporary "peace". Your question as to what would happen to Kosova if Bondsteel is no longer there...... is funny, and it is clear that your are using it rhetorically. You seem sure, the Albanians will not fight for their own land and property, and the Serbs with Russian help somehow will bring it all easily back to Serbs. You should know there are just as much Albanians scattered around as there are Serbs! Lots of naive assumptions here, as Bondsteel and the people behind it are still well, and running things. Again, with your logic....:--If they no longer can keep that camp over there, things will be way different in this world, way different. How do you know the Russians are going to be "able" to help the Serbs in that event? What if the Serbs will be asked to go and help them instead? What if China starts looking forward and Northward for some new land.....something they might see as "theirs"??

    Inciting hate, war and genocide is not only criminal, but also stupid!! Albanians, Serbs, and the rest of the Balkan lands are all the same, homo sapiens, all mortal, and all responsible for what they are going to leave their children. There is only one way forward that benefits all: mutual respect and recognition of each others right to exist.

    Inciting hate

    You probably wouldn’t believe how many of your ancestors not only hated, but butchered their perceived enemies. In many cases those enemies were a very real threat and that butchering is the only reason you exist. They’d laugh (and probably shed a tear in disappointment) at your infatuation with euthanasia.

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  • @Jimmy
    Hi Peter,

    You seem to own the “victim” side...... i.e, the serbian side. Funny, really, as the albanians are the ones who suffered and lost the most. They (and plenty others who saw what happened seem to agree...) see themselves as the victims. They wanted to be a republic, for decades, and Slobo striped them even from “autonomy”. The had to walk on the mountains....children and women, fleeing from the barbarians whomput them in mass graves.

    Yet, your tone appears like “no way we would ever agree to peace with albanians” ! You even find it funny! Saker articles seem to also have empowered you. Well, that is unfortunate, and delusional, but not unexpected. Albanians have clearly seen far worse from you, and your kind, and are prepared for anything. You can certainly count on that!

    Just in case you wise up, life in hate is no life. So, I wish you all the best.

    Jimmy

    Well…apparently I am making some progress on this site.

    Just not so long ago I was defined as Croat and, consequently, a Serb hater.

    Shows how perceptive people are here.

    The funny part is how you and your types don’t see how schizophrenic your post is.

    “We are all the same”
    but
    “We are Albanians and they are Serbs”

    “We have to live in peace”
    but
    “We have to fight for our independence”

    And the most important, as soon as somebody hints of not agreeing with your….”all love”….message that person must be a Serb.

    And you really don’t even see that.

    THAT is funny.

    What is not funny is how THIN that layer or civility is over there….your types included.

    Your first post could’ve deceived some naive souls around, but your second is starting to show the true colors.

    You shouldn’t be afraid of showing your true colors. though, The Empire is behind you; you have all the moral rights there, apparently.
    You are the good guys.
    Apparently.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jimmy
    Last time people talked like you, albanians ended up in mass graves! I appeal to your humanity to not spread hate and incite genocide. Many innocents have lost their lifes from these histerical longings.

    Otherwise, the albanians (wherever they live.... and there is a lot of them.......) are prepared for anything, and ready to defend. Things are indeed very very different now. You, saker, and all the rest of the zoo animals that feel bondsteeled in a cage, would be welcomed to see it for yourself, if you dare.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @peterAUS
    Impressive.

    I re-read this a couple of times and each time it got......better..... actually.

    I get the impression that you actually do believe all that.
    Wow....

    So.....all those people there who lost parts of their body/mind in "troubles", with family members and property too, just have to...... understand....they are all the same?

    Respect..... those who did that to them and simply ...recognize (you probably meant accept).... the current state of affairs....and....move on.....?

    Live together in peace?

    Like nothing happened?

    For the sake of their children?

    Just....wow

    Now, one could get a more cynical impression from your post.
    We fucked you up. Now, should you get into position to get even/fuck us back you, really, shouldn't do that. You know, we are all the same, should live in peace, look forward for our children etc.
    Yeah.....

    Hi Peter,

    You seem to own the “victim” side…… i.e, the serbian side. Funny, really, as the albanians are the ones who suffered and lost the most. They (and plenty others who saw what happened seem to agree…) see themselves as the victims. They wanted to be a republic, for decades, and Slobo striped them even from “autonomy”. The had to walk on the mountains….children and women, fleeing from the barbarians whomput them in mass graves.

    Yet, your tone appears like “no way we would ever agree to peace with albanians” ! You even find it funny! Saker articles seem to also have empowered you. Well, that is unfortunate, and delusional, but not unexpected. Albanians have clearly seen far worse from you, and your kind, and are prepared for anything. You can certainly count on that!

    Just in case you wise up, life in hate is no life. So, I wish you all the best.

    Jimmy

    Read More
    • Replies: @peterAUS
    Well...apparently I am making some progress on this site.

    Just not so long ago I was defined as Croat and, consequently, a Serb hater.

    Shows how perceptive people are here.

    The funny part is how you and your types don't see how schizophrenic your post is.

    "We are all the same"
    but
    "We are Albanians and they are Serbs"

    "We have to live in peace"
    but
    "We have to fight for our independence"

    And the most important, as soon as somebody hints of not agreeing with your...."all love"....message that person must be a Serb.

    And you really don't even see that.

    THAT is funny.

    What is not funny is how THIN that layer or civility is over there....your types included.

    Your first post could've deceived some naive souls around, but your second is starting to show the true colors.

    You shouldn't be afraid of showing your true colors. though, The Empire is behind you; you have all the moral rights there, apparently.
    You are the good guys.
    Apparently.
    , @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Are somehow mentally challenged?
    Albanians have a republic. They had a republic like forever.
    And their republic is called Albania. It was always independent and was newer part of Yugoslavia.
    Kosovo was always part of Serbia. Many gypsies with permission of Yugoslavian government under leadership of Croatian president Tito let Gypsies to settle in Kosovo.

    These are basic facts! I was under impression that everybody know that!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Dovla
    Hey buddy,

    so your nomadic tribe was actually very peaceful, moved into empty territory, where no one lived before and has never attacked anyone? Good one. The only part of Hungarian kingdom that you annexed peacefully was Croatia. All those crusades your medieval rulers launched on Slavic population south of Sava river were also for their own good I suppose. God knows how many invasions you launched against Wallachia and Moldova.

    And the rest? So you fled from the Turks, Serbs moved in to fight the Turks, and you started moving back 300 years later when the Turkish danger passed and that somehow gives you right to the land? Good one.

    Keep 'em coming buddy.

    There was Valachia only and Bulgaria. I have seen the ancient maps before Magyars moved in.
    There was Romania also and Rome.

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  • @Jimmy
    Your article is inflammatory and implies genocide/hate mongering towards a whole ethnic group: Albanians. The region needs a way to see forward, not backward. Living together in peace, for sake of the younger generations, should be priority. Sad to see these comments here.

    Otherwise, if I may continue with your logic......Indeed, at the moment, the Serbs are "Bondsteeled" in a cage because some of their people were savages towards all of their neighbors, and this is how we have a temporary "peace". Your question as to what would happen to Kosova if Bondsteel is no longer there...... is funny, and it is clear that your are using it rhetorically. You seem sure, the Albanians will not fight for their own land and property, and the Serbs with Russian help somehow will bring it all easily back to Serbs. You should know there are just as much Albanians scattered around as there are Serbs! Lots of naive assumptions here, as Bondsteel and the people behind it are still well, and running things. Again, with your logic....:--If they no longer can keep that camp over there, things will be way different in this world, way different. How do you know the Russians are going to be "able" to help the Serbs in that event? What if the Serbs will be asked to go and help them instead? What if China starts looking forward and Northward for some new land.....something they might see as "theirs"??

    Inciting hate, war and genocide is not only criminal, but also stupid!! Albanians, Serbs, and the rest of the Balkan lands are all the same, homo sapiens, all mortal, and all responsible for what they are going to leave their children. There is only one way forward that benefits all: mutual respect and recognition of each others right to exist.

    Impressive.

    I re-read this a couple of times and each time it got……better….. actually.

    I get the impression that you actually do believe all that.
    Wow….

    So…..all those people there who lost parts of their body/mind in “troubles”, with family members and property too, just have to…… understand….they are all the same?

    Respect….. those who did that to them and simply …recognize (you probably meant accept)…. the current state of affairs….and….move on…..?

    Live together in peace?

    Like nothing happened?

    For the sake of their children?

    Just….wow

    Now, one could get a more cynical impression from your post.
    We fucked you up. Now, should you get into position to get even/fuck us back you, really, shouldn’t do that. You know, we are all the same, should live in peace, look forward for our children etc.
    Yeah…..

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    • Replies: @Jimmy
    Hi Peter,

    You seem to own the “victim” side...... i.e, the serbian side. Funny, really, as the albanians are the ones who suffered and lost the most. They (and plenty others who saw what happened seem to agree...) see themselves as the victims. They wanted to be a republic, for decades, and Slobo striped them even from “autonomy”. The had to walk on the mountains....children and women, fleeing from the barbarians whomput them in mass graves.

    Yet, your tone appears like “no way we would ever agree to peace with albanians” ! You even find it funny! Saker articles seem to also have empowered you. Well, that is unfortunate, and delusional, but not unexpected. Albanians have clearly seen far worse from you, and your kind, and are prepared for anything. You can certainly count on that!

    Just in case you wise up, life in hate is no life. So, I wish you all the best.

    Jimmy
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  • @Antiwar7
    Fascinating. Thanks for the info.

    Happy to oblige!
    One should not forget that the shenanigans of Krizhanic in Russia happened on the background of the troubles created by the ‘Old Believers’ (who contrary to the received wisdom were more influenced by Western beliefs than it is usually admitted). The idea of Russia “The Third Rome” peddled by the Old Believers, was also a western influence, which was actually rejected by the Tsars.

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  • @Szabolcs
    The Ukranian policy Hungary objects to makes it compulsory for Hungarian kids to learn in Ukranian language above the fourth grade in primary school, in secondary shool and at the university. Every nation must have the right to learn on its mother tongue. And anyway, noone on Earth wants to learn Ukranian. Moreover noone on Earth wants to live in Ukraine. Hungarians have to live in that country because their homeland was torn out of Hungary, and given to Czechoslovakia, than to the Soviet Union and after the CCCP crumbled, they became part of Ukraine. The territory where they live is on the western side of the Carpathian Mountains, and belonged to Hungary from 895 to 1918. The 80 percent of the population is NOT Ukranian but rusyn, and they are not even recognized by Ukraine as a nation. That is because if they recognized them, they could become independent, and that is what they want. Their best chance would be to return to Hungary as an autonomous region, and become part of the EU, which they have absolutely zero chance to achieve as part of Ukraine. But they dont dare to speak out, with Ukrainian chauvinist military groups marching on their streets. Hungary should demand self determination for that region. And as for the ridiculous Venice Commission, they are in no position to tell any national group how they should live their lives. They are just singing from the music sheet of the zionists who rule Ukraine in coalition with the Ukrainian fascists.

    If the Rusyn become part of the EU, they will ultimately be forced to accept invasion by Muslims and Africans. That will endanger their physical safety, destroy their common culture, impoverish them further, and End their identity and existence as a nation.

    Now if Hungary is wise enough to leave the EU, then perhaps Hungary could be an attractive option for the Rusyn to escape from the collapsing and dying Ukraine.

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  • @Parbes
    Switching to Sorosian ad hominems when you cannot answer an argument, eh? Well, I guess with a character like you, it figures...

    What is actually mentally sick, is neocon Russophobia and trying to wage so-called "Great Game" global hegemony wars against Russians, Chinese, Serbs etc. thousands of miles away from your shores, while your own small country gets negrified and Islamized by the day and gangs of Pakistanis rape and whore-ify your young girls in your own cities and towns.

    "Britannia that rules the waves" is OVER, man. Get used to it and deal with it. You're a small, ailing country with many serious problems now. Hiding under the U.S. skirt isn't going to change that.

    Why are you so obsessed with the British Empire? Do you secretly want to be British?

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    • Replies: @Parbes
    Yeah genius, that's it - I must be "secretly wanting to be British". Anyone who is repulsed by the vile Russophobic Anglo chauvinism of you and your ilk, must "secretly want to be British". With this level of intelligence, you have a blindingly bright future ahead of you!

    The real question here is: Why are YOU so obsessed with hating, denigrating, and trying to destroy Russia (and China, and Serbia, and the other Eastern European countries, and other independent-minded countries, and...and...)? Why this psychotic compulsion for "sticking it" at all costs to Russia, one of the great historical European nations, while your own little island's demographics is going down the drain and the urban areas of once-great Britain are filled with gangs of Pakistanis raping and sexually enslaving young British women? Why this antipathy and hatred? WHY? Deep-seated conditioning and Cold War mental habits that you cannot overcome? Sheer malice? Petty jealousy? Irrational psychopathic tribalism? A neurotic addiction to playing geopolitical "games", with Russia as the eternal unchanging adversary? What is it, exactly?

    NEOCON IDIOT.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Your article is inflammatory and implies genocide/hate mongering towards a whole ethnic group: Albanians. The region needs a way to see forward, not backward. Living together in peace, for sake of the younger generations, should be priority. Sad to see these comments here.

    Otherwise, if I may continue with your logic……Indeed, at the moment, the Serbs are “Bondsteeled” in a cage because some of their people were savages towards all of their neighbors, and this is how we have a temporary “peace”. Your question as to what would happen to Kosova if Bondsteel is no longer there…… is funny, and it is clear that your are using it rhetorically. You seem sure, the Albanians will not fight for their own land and property, and the Serbs with Russian help somehow will bring it all easily back to Serbs. You should know there are just as much Albanians scattered around as there are Serbs! Lots of naive assumptions here, as Bondsteel and the people behind it are still well, and running things. Again, with your logic….:–If they no longer can keep that camp over there, things will be way different in this world, way different. How do you know the Russians are going to be “able” to help the Serbs in that event? What if the Serbs will be asked to go and help them instead? What if China starts looking forward and Northward for some new land…..something they might see as “theirs”??

    Inciting hate, war and genocide is not only criminal, but also stupid!! Albanians, Serbs, and the rest of the Balkan lands are all the same, homo sapiens, all mortal, and all responsible for what they are going to leave their children. There is only one way forward that benefits all: mutual respect and recognition of each others right to exist.

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    • Replies: @peterAUS
    Impressive.

    I re-read this a couple of times and each time it got......better..... actually.

    I get the impression that you actually do believe all that.
    Wow....

    So.....all those people there who lost parts of their body/mind in "troubles", with family members and property too, just have to...... understand....they are all the same?

    Respect..... those who did that to them and simply ...recognize (you probably meant accept).... the current state of affairs....and....move on.....?

    Live together in peace?

    Like nothing happened?

    For the sake of their children?

    Just....wow

    Now, one could get a more cynical impression from your post.
    We fucked you up. Now, should you get into position to get even/fuck us back you, really, shouldn't do that. You know, we are all the same, should live in peace, look forward for our children etc.
    Yeah.....
    , @Anonymous

    Inciting hate
     
    You probably wouldn't believe how many of your ancestors not only hated, but butchered their perceived enemies. In many cases those enemies were a very real threat and that butchering is the only reason you exist. They'd laugh (and probably shed a tear in disappointment) at your infatuation with euthanasia.
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  • @Szabolcs
    The area between the Danube and the Sava rivers was part of Croatia and not Hungary. Its population was mostly slavic so it is not to be taken into consideration.
    The whole territory of Vojvodina had a vast Hungarian majority before 1526, the start of the Turkish invasion. Before the raiding Turkish armies Hungarians had to move to the northern, more protected parts of Hungary.
    This was an era of constant wars between the Habsburg Empire, the Turks and the Hungarian Principality of Transylvania, lasting 150 years.
    The destruction greatly reduced the Hungarian population which had to fight against the Turkish invaders and for its freedom against the Habsburgs at the same time.
    The Serbians started to migrate into the southern part of Hungary as part of the Thurkish military organization! At the and of the 1600's Hungary was mostly liberated from the Turkish invaders.
    After 1690 tens of thousands of Serbians arrived, led by their patriarch, fleeing from the counter-attacks of the Turkish army. The Habsburgs settled them as border defenders.
    During the Hungarian war of independence between 1703 and 1711, the Serbians fought on the side of the Habsburg oppressors.
    During the 1700's years the Hungarians continuously retuned to the territory, and more Serbians migrated in fleeing from the Turks. The Habsburgs sponsored the
    immigration of germans because they were politically reliable.
    During the war of independence between 1849-48, Serbians again were fighting against the Hungarians, burned their settlements and chased away the Hungarian population.
    In the second half of the 19th century, the territory regained its Hungarian majority, but this majority was in fact smaller than before 1526, the Turkish invasion. But the Serbians were absolute minority if we take into consideration the also large German population.
    In 1918, the Serbian army occupied the southern part of Hungary with the help of the French army! And Romanian and Czech armies were also invading our weakened country
    so we did not have any chance. After the resignation of the Habsburg Emperor our country finally became free, and a pacifist, Entente-friend prime minister took over power, whoose first decision was (sorrowfully) to disarm the Hungarian army returning trom the fronts.
    Only after that was he faced by the Entente powers plan, to take two thirds of our thousand years old country, the freedom for which we spilled so much blood in vain!
    After the Trianon treaty, the new rulers of Vojvodiana, the Serbians took the lands from the Hungarians and quickly started to destroy any sign of the land's Hungarian origin. Thousands of Hungarians lost their jods and had to flee
    to what was left of Hungary.
    During the 20th century around one million new Serbian migrated into the more developed Vojvodina from the poorer parts of Serbia. For example, the largest city of the Serbian-Croatian-Slovenian Kingdom created in 1918 was Szabadka, a Hungarian settlement, and not Belgrad or any other slavic town. Szabadka still has a 50 percent Hungarian population and most remaining Hungarians live in a block near the Hungarian border.
    This all shows that Hungarian is the native population of Vojvodina, Serbians migrated into the area during the Turkish invasion. They were hostile to Hungarians throughout the history,
    though Hungarians could have lived together with them peacefully, as with many other nation. Hungarians accepted many nation into their homeland, Germans, slavs, Romanians, nomadic turk tribes. This has proven to be their fate.

    Hey buddy,

    so your nomadic tribe was actually very peaceful, moved into empty territory, where no one lived before and has never attacked anyone? Good one. The only part of Hungarian kingdom that you annexed peacefully was Croatia. All those crusades your medieval rulers launched on Slavic population south of Sava river were also for their own good I suppose. God knows how many invasions you launched against Wallachia and Moldova.

    And the rest? So you fled from the Turks, Serbs moved in to fight the Turks, and you started moving back 300 years later when the Turkish danger passed and that somehow gives you right to the land? Good one.

    Keep ‘em coming buddy.

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    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    There was Valachia only and Bulgaria. I have seen the ancient maps before Magyars moved in.
    There was Romania also and Rome.
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  • @Tom57
    Actually it might not depend on the world view but on the actual quality of a man when he gets into a situation when he can decide the life or death of others. Milvan Djilas was a convinced Communist but if you read his autobiography he never forgot to mention the plight of his enemies. They were still people to him. Same the experience in the Bosnian war. You might have a Serb nationalist who was actually ashamed of what his countrymen did (I met such) and who would save some Muslim when he had the chance. You might have people of mixed heritage who would be the worst killers on the Serbian side.

    War is a mighty and terrible machine once it starts. There is no right and wrong after a while. It becomes an eternal vicious circle of atrocity, revenge, atrocity, revenge. That is where all those oh so educated nationalistic fantasists are to blame. They start a process where there is no end unless either the other nation is exterminated or else somebody steps in.

    ….an eternal vicious circle of atrocity, revenge, atrocity, revenge.

    Yup.
    Especially in places like Bosnia. A lot of bad history there.

    That is where all those oh so educated nationalistic fantasists are to blame.

    Well…that’s an interesting topic.
    You’ll probably find that when one actually wants to get to the bottom of it sooner or later he/she hits a wall. Or at least I did. Sense of belonging, sense of own place in the world, even in afterworld.
    Religion. Etc.
    A question of how ideas pop up in the first place? Out of inspiration by an exceptional person, or, out of environment (racial, economy, society, etc.).
    How come that those ideas find so fertile ground there? THAT is something I’d like to find an answer for.

    They start a process where there is no end unless either the other nation is exterminated or else somebody steps in

    Pretty much.

    As for individual/group conduct in war, especially when war crimes are concerned I believe it is a CULTURAL thing.
    One can rationalize it by payback/hatred/blah blah but I don’t buy it.

    Now, dissecting and understanding that culture and cultures in Balkans/Europe/World is a BIG topic. Above my pay grade I am afraid.

    As for Djilas he wrote a couple of books and interested parties could see his journey well.
    One shouldn’t forget his role in purges from split with Stalin.
    Again, cultural thing, IMHO:
    it is one thing to arrest and detain possible political opponents/suspects/possible problems. Brits did it with Germans in WW2, Americans did it with Japenese too.
    TREATMENT of those political prisoners in Yugoslavia, by former comrades is another matter.

    Like in the last wars.
    It’s one thing should one want to do ethnic cleansing (which had/has pure military application-no guerrilla movement there) to arrest people there, put them into some place and then send them somewhere.
    It’s quite another to do all those rapes, beatings to death etc. let alone mass executions as in Srebrenica for example.

    So….Balkans…….culture.
    Balkans ….thing.

    My 2 cents.

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  • @anony-mouse
    Golly gosh I don't know what to think.

    Just a little more than a week ago:

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/11/eric-margolis/remembering-bosnias-horrors/

    Just ask yourself: what is the religion of Margolis? and then you know his agenda.

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  • @Ted Buila
    AP some detail please re your 'final' Rusyn depiction:

    "....the poor Rusyns were more illiterate than were people in the Russian empire."

    https://keithdarden.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/darden-natural-experiment.pdf

    Page 15:

    Budapest-controlled territory:

    “The rusyn areas West (South) of the Carpathian divide were subject to a series of incomplete schooling efforts. The Hungarian government did not attempt to educate the majority of the rural population, and Magyarized the relatively small elite that it educated. Literacy among the rusyn (largely peasant) population of Maramaros, Ung, and Bereg provinces was approximately 20% by the outbreak of World War I. Data from 1906 show no rusyn-language schools in Hungary and only 34 Rusyn-Magyar bilingual schools.”

    Galicia, ruled from Vienna, as a contrast (page 19):

    Universal primary education was mandated by law in the Austrian Empire in 1867. In 1868, the Austrian government funded the Prosvita reading society, growing it from a minor student organization in Lviv (Lemberg) into a massive network of reading houses with Ukrainian nationalist literature in villages throughout Eastern Galicia and large “national houses” in major cities.(Naris Istorii 1993, 19). The rusyn peasantry was rapidly incorporated into this culture as schools expanded in Galicia at the end of the 19th Century… In 1886, only 380,000 children out of 709,000 of mandatory age were actually attending school in Galicia (Himka 1988, 60). This was remedied by the founding of 1,444 new schools between 1905 and 1914 in Galicia (as compared to only 2,080 from 1868-1904), half of which used Ukrainian as the language of instruction..

    In Galicia as a whole in 1880, only 17.3% of men and 10.3% of women could read and write.27 By 1900, literacy rates for the population as a whole were up to 44% (Sirka 1980, 79). By 1910, 59% of people over the age of nine were fully literate.

    In 1900 literacy in the Russian Empire was 24%, 20% in rural areas. By 1914, when Trancarpathia was at 20%, Russian figures had risen.

    So, under Hungarian rule, the Ukrainians of Transcarpathia were the least educated East Slavic people in the world. The effects of Hungarian mis-rule have been long-lasting. Their province remains both the poorest and the least educated in modern Ukraine.

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  • @Seraphim
    You would like to know that the 'Panslavism', decried as a 'Russian idea' and the proof of the 'Russian imperialism' against all civilized world was duty bound to fight against, was also a Croat invention:

    "The first pan-Slavists were the 16th-century Croatian writer Vinko Pribojević and the 17th-century Aleksandar Komulović, Bartol Kašić, Gundulić and Croatian Catholic missionary Juraj Križanić*. Some of the earliest manifestations of Pan-Slavic thought within the Habsburg Monarchy have been attributed to Adam Franz Kollár and Pavel Jozef Šafárik".

    *Juraj Križanić (c. 1618 – 12 September 1683), also known as Yuriy Krizhanich or Iurii Krizhanich (Russian: Крижанич, Юрий), was a Croatian Catholic missionary who is often regarded as the earliest recorded pan-Slavist... While Križanić had a strong desire to travel to Moscow with the ambitious goal of uniting the Roman Catholic and Russian Orthodox churches, he was assigned missionary duties in Zagreb, where he was a teacher at the Zagreb Theological Seminary as well as a priest in several neighboring towns...
    [Eventually] Križanić managed to secure permission from the papacy for a brief visit to Moscow from 25 October to 19 December 1647 as part of a Polish embassy. However, he was not able to secure permission for a prolonged stay until 1658 (it was retracted shortly after being issued, a fact that Križanić simply ignored) and he did not arrive in Moscow until 17 September 1659. Another author said that he pretended to be an Orthodox Serb. He was assigned the duty of translating Latin and Greek documents and preparing an improved Slavic grammar. However, he was exiled to Siberia on 20 January 1661. The reason for his exile is still unknown. Possible explanations put forward have included the fact that he was a Roman Catholic priest [as if lying that he was an Orthodox Serb had no bearing on the case], his criticism of Russian society and of the Greeks, with whom Patriarch Nikon was attempting reconciliation, and other political and social motives. Križanić postulated that he was exiled because of "some foolish thing" he had said to someone, and that whatever he had said had been mentioned to the authorities....
    He wanted to unite the Slavic nations under the Russian Tsar and unite Catholic and Orthodox [certainly under the Pope] against the German Protestants and Turkish Muslims."

    You want to laugh or cry?

    Fascinating. Thanks for the info.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Happy to oblige!
    One should not forget that the shenanigans of Krizhanic in Russia happened on the background of the troubles created by the 'Old Believers' (who contrary to the received wisdom were more influenced by Western beliefs than it is usually admitted). The idea of Russia "The Third Rome" peddled by the Old Believers, was also a western influence, which was actually rejected by the Tsars.
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  • @Anonymous
    Thanks Antiwar7. It's always nice to hear from an informed party (although Ilyana_Rozumova is right - Wikipedia is unreliable). How's the situation in Serbia now? Are Soros and his NGOs influential there?

    Thanks! I assume the answer to your question is yes, though I don’t know first-hand.

    I picked the Wikipedia links because they were easy to find. The points I was making have plenty of other references. But why bother here? The only people left reading these comments have their own strong opinions (and biases), and are not looking for information.

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  • @AP

    And the rusyn people really exist, even if you dont recognise them.
     
    I only care, if they recognize themselves, rather than are recognized by Hungarians. Only about 1% of the people whom you consider themselves to be a separate nation, Rusyns, actually consider themselves to be the separate nation, in Ukraine. These people in other places such as Serbia, and Hungary (there are perhaps 5,000 there) think differently and consider themselves to be Rusyns, as is their right. 150 years ago Galicians called themselves Rusyns also, btw.

    There were a legal referendum in 1991 in Kárpátalja when the wast majority woted for autonomy.
     
    Local Ukrainian nationalists supported autonomy because the Kiev government was run by communists.

    This naivity was present in Hungary also before 1918. We edducated the intellectulas of our minorities,
     
    Correction: you Magyarized the tiny % of people who were intellectuals, while keeping the masses uneducated. While Galicia had full literacy of students by around 1900, the poor Rusyns were more illiterate than were people in the Russian empire.

    AP some detail please re your ‘final’ Rusyn depiction:

    “….the poor Rusyns were more illiterate than were people in the Russian empire.”

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    • Replies: @AP
    https://keithdarden.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/darden-natural-experiment.pdf

    Page 15:

    Budapest-controlled territory:

    "The rusyn areas West (South) of the Carpathian divide were subject to a series of incomplete schooling efforts. The Hungarian government did not attempt to educate the majority of the rural population, and Magyarized the relatively small elite that it educated. Literacy among the rusyn (largely peasant) population of Maramaros, Ung, and Bereg provinces was approximately 20% by the outbreak of World War I. Data from 1906 show no rusyn-language schools in Hungary and only 34 Rusyn-Magyar bilingual schools."
     
    Galicia, ruled from Vienna, as a contrast (page 19):

    Universal primary education was mandated by law in the Austrian Empire in 1867. In 1868, the Austrian government funded the Prosvita reading society, growing it from a minor student organization in Lviv (Lemberg) into a massive network of reading houses with Ukrainian nationalist literature in villages throughout Eastern Galicia and large “national houses” in major cities.(Naris Istorii 1993, 19). The rusyn peasantry was rapidly incorporated into this culture as schools expanded in Galicia at the end of the 19th Century... In 1886, only 380,000 children out of 709,000 of mandatory age were actually attending school in Galicia (Himka 1988, 60). This was remedied by the founding of 1,444 new schools between 1905 and 1914 in Galicia (as compared to only 2,080 from 1868-1904), half of which used Ukrainian as the language of instruction..

    In Galicia as a whole in 1880, only 17.3% of men and 10.3% of women could read and write.27 By 1900, literacy rates for the population as a whole were up to 44% (Sirka 1980, 79). By 1910, 59% of people over the age of nine were fully literate.
     
    In 1900 literacy in the Russian Empire was 24%, 20% in rural areas. By 1914, when Trancarpathia was at 20%, Russian figures had risen.

    So, under Hungarian rule, the Ukrainians of Transcarpathia were the least educated East Slavic people in the world. The effects of Hungarian mis-rule have been long-lasting. Their province remains both the poorest and the least educated in modern Ukraine.
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  • @peterAUS

    voice of reason
     
    And that is exactly the wrong approach here.
    We think about all that. Wrong.
    One has to feel it.

    I've spent a lot of time speaking with true nationalists from all sides. Not only Balkans types.
    Plenty of them much more intelligent and educated than me. I could sit for hours and just listen to a man.
    The knowledge, erudition, flow of thought, simply impressive.
    And the core, unshakable, belief that if "we" get rid of THEM, by any means necessary, we'll have a paradise on earth.

    I agree that a lot is unknowable. I for my part just know a bit about Bosnia.

     

    I guess it goes into religion. And the religion goes into the deepest needs/traits of human nature. No idea, actually.
    But, on a practical level, that is how you can have PhD in humanities running a concentration camp. Or a devoted Christian beating to death a POW in that camp. Etc.

    It is a vicious circle. Can one break it? Not from within I believe.
     
    Agree.
    That's why, at the end, international community had to step in and impose the peace.
    But, then, that community, or better, US leadership, really fucked up.

    Instead of imposing some sort of measured Imperial justice they simply used the region for own internal/foreign policy dealings.

    On practical level, appeasing Islamic world by punishing mostly Serbs and then to a lesser extent, Croats.
    This last, with Mladic and "Croat Six" is blatant example. Even now, with Trump and what not.
    And peoples there see it.

    The real conundrum is actually very simple:
    As long as The Empire's iron grip is maintained there it will be peace there.
    A lot of people of this world want The Empire gone or at least weakened.
    As soon as that grip relaxes........bang.
    So......

    My personal hero is Milovan Djilas who fought on the side of Tito and then published the “New Class” For which he spent 10 years in prison. When he was interviewed in the Nineties he didn´t have a solution either.
     
    Yup.
    Makes you think, a?

    Actually it might not depend on the world view but on the actual quality of a man when he gets into a situation when he can decide the life or death of others. Milvan Djilas was a convinced Communist but if you read his autobiography he never forgot to mention the plight of his enemies. They were still people to him. Same the experience in the Bosnian war. You might have a Serb nationalist who was actually ashamed of what his countrymen did (I met such) and who would save some Muslim when he had the chance. You might have people of mixed heritage who would be the worst killers on the Serbian side.

    War is a mighty and terrible machine once it starts. There is no right and wrong after a while. It becomes an eternal vicious circle of atrocity, revenge, atrocity, revenge. That is where all those oh so educated nationalistic fantasists are to blame. They start a process where there is no end unless either the other nation is exterminated or else somebody steps in.

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    • Replies: @peterAUS

    ....an eternal vicious circle of atrocity, revenge, atrocity, revenge.
     
    Yup.
    Especially in places like Bosnia. A lot of bad history there.

    That is where all those oh so educated nationalistic fantasists are to blame.
     
    Well...that's an interesting topic.
    You'll probably find that when one actually wants to get to the bottom of it sooner or later he/she hits a wall. Or at least I did. Sense of belonging, sense of own place in the world, even in afterworld.
    Religion. Etc.
    A question of how ideas pop up in the first place? Out of inspiration by an exceptional person, or, out of environment (racial, economy, society, etc.).
    How come that those ideas find so fertile ground there? THAT is something I'd like to find an answer for.

    They start a process where there is no end unless either the other nation is exterminated or else somebody steps in
     
    Pretty much.

    As for individual/group conduct in war, especially when war crimes are concerned I believe it is a CULTURAL thing.
    One can rationalize it by payback/hatred/blah blah but I don't buy it.

    Now, dissecting and understanding that culture and cultures in Balkans/Europe/World is a BIG topic. Above my pay grade I am afraid.

    As for Djilas he wrote a couple of books and interested parties could see his journey well.
    One shouldn't forget his role in purges from split with Stalin.
    Again, cultural thing, IMHO:
    it is one thing to arrest and detain possible political opponents/suspects/possible problems. Brits did it with Germans in WW2, Americans did it with Japenese too.
    TREATMENT of those political prisoners in Yugoslavia, by former comrades is another matter.

    Like in the last wars.
    It's one thing should one want to do ethnic cleansing (which had/has pure military application-no guerrilla movement there) to arrest people there, put them into some place and then send them somewhere.
    It's quite another to do all those rapes, beatings to death etc. let alone mass executions as in Srebrenica for example.

    So....Balkans.......culture.
    Balkans ....thing.

    My 2 cents.
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  • @anony-mouse
    Golly gosh I don't know what to think.

    Just a little more than a week ago:

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/11/eric-margolis/remembering-bosnias-horrors/

    Margolis is a Muslim sympathizer. Take what he says with a big grain of salt.

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  • @Szabolcs
    Oh,it is of course no problem for a Ukranian, that Hungarians cannot learn in Hungarian at the Hungarian Universities. I dont expect any kind of understanding from you. And the rusyn people really exist, even if you dont recognise them. There were a legal referendum in 1991 in Kárpátalja when the wast majority woted for autonomy. Ukraine has been ignoring their decision ever since! And it seems also logical to me that people would prefer to live in a country that is part of the EU and where they can practise their minority rights, use their language freely, than in a backward country full of fascists. Just to make it clear how things stand in Hungary, concerning minority rights. The archbishop of Esztergom visited the Vatican City recently in order to lobby for gipsy language mess! I bet most gipsy doesn't even know they have their own languages! This naivity was present in Hungary also before 1918. We edducated the intellectulas of our minorities, who then turned against us, and became separatists, and lobbied at the Entente powers to give them two thirds of our country.
    And I dont know what are you getting at with Hungarians Asian origin. First, it is not proven, second, we all came from Africa in the first place.

    And the rusyn people really exist, even if you dont recognise them.

    I only care, if they recognize themselves, rather than are recognized by Hungarians. Only about 1% of the people whom you consider themselves to be a separate nation, Rusyns, actually consider themselves to be the separate nation, in Ukraine. These people in other places such as Serbia, and Hungary (there are perhaps 5,000 there) think differently and consider themselves to be Rusyns, as is their right. 150 years ago Galicians called themselves Rusyns also, btw.

    There were a legal referendum in 1991 in Kárpátalja when the wast majority woted for autonomy.

    Local Ukrainian nationalists supported autonomy because the Kiev government was run by communists.

    This naivity was present in Hungary also before 1918. We edducated the intellectulas of our minorities,

    Correction: you Magyarized the tiny % of people who were intellectuals, while keeping the masses uneducated. While Galicia had full literacy of students by around 1900, the poor Rusyns were more illiterate than were people in the Russian empire.

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    • Replies: @Ted Buila
    AP some detail please re your 'final' Rusyn depiction:

    "....the poor Rusyns were more illiterate than were people in the Russian empire."
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  • @Szabolcs
    The area between the Danube and the Sava rivers was part of Croatia and not Hungary. Its population was mostly slavic so it is not to be taken into consideration.
    The whole territory of Vojvodina had a vast Hungarian majority before 1526, the start of the Turkish invasion. Before the raiding Turkish armies Hungarians had to move to the northern, more protected parts of Hungary.
    This was an era of constant wars between the Habsburg Empire, the Turks and the Hungarian Principality of Transylvania, lasting 150 years.
    The destruction greatly reduced the Hungarian population which had to fight against the Turkish invaders and for its freedom against the Habsburgs at the same time.
    The Serbians started to migrate into the southern part of Hungary as part of the Thurkish military organization! At the and of the 1600's Hungary was mostly liberated from the Turkish invaders.
    After 1690 tens of thousands of Serbians arrived, led by their patriarch, fleeing from the counter-attacks of the Turkish army. The Habsburgs settled them as border defenders.
    During the Hungarian war of independence between 1703 and 1711, the Serbians fought on the side of the Habsburg oppressors.
    During the 1700's years the Hungarians continuously retuned to the territory, and more Serbians migrated in fleeing from the Turks. The Habsburgs sponsored the
    immigration of germans because they were politically reliable.
    During the war of independence between 1849-48, Serbians again were fighting against the Hungarians, burned their settlements and chased away the Hungarian population.
    In the second half of the 19th century, the territory regained its Hungarian majority, but this majority was in fact smaller than before 1526, the Turkish invasion. But the Serbians were absolute minority if we take into consideration the also large German population.
    In 1918, the Serbian army occupied the southern part of Hungary with the help of the French army! And Romanian and Czech armies were also invading our weakened country
    so we did not have any chance. After the resignation of the Habsburg Emperor our country finally became free, and a pacifist, Entente-friend prime minister took over power, whoose first decision was (sorrowfully) to disarm the Hungarian army returning trom the fronts.
    Only after that was he faced by the Entente powers plan, to take two thirds of our thousand years old country, the freedom for which we spilled so much blood in vain!
    After the Trianon treaty, the new rulers of Vojvodiana, the Serbians took the lands from the Hungarians and quickly started to destroy any sign of the land's Hungarian origin. Thousands of Hungarians lost their jods and had to flee
    to what was left of Hungary.
    During the 20th century around one million new Serbian migrated into the more developed Vojvodina from the poorer parts of Serbia. For example, the largest city of the Serbian-Croatian-Slovenian Kingdom created in 1918 was Szabadka, a Hungarian settlement, and not Belgrad or any other slavic town. Szabadka still has a 50 percent Hungarian population and most remaining Hungarians live in a block near the Hungarian border.
    This all shows that Hungarian is the native population of Vojvodina, Serbians migrated into the area during the Turkish invasion. They were hostile to Hungarians throughout the history,
    though Hungarians could have lived together with them peacefully, as with many other nation. Hungarians accepted many nation into their homeland, Germans, slavs, Romanians, nomadic turk tribes. This has proven to be their fate.

    This is, of course, to self-servingly forget that the Hungarians (and the ‘Kozar’) were themselves invaders on territories where “Slavs, Bulgarians, Vlachs and the shepherds of the Romans” or “Slavs, Greeks, Germans, Moravians and Vlachs”, were the native inhabitants of what was called “Pascua Romanorum” (“the Romans’ pasturing lands”) since Julius Caesar (‘pabula Iulii Caesaris’), i.e. Pannonia and the Puzsta.
    Hungarians quickly offered themselves as the mercenaries of Papacy against Byzantium and enforcers of the Catholicization of the Orthodox populations.
    This is to forget also that the ‘Romanian invasion’ was actually repelling the attack of the murderous Bolshevik Soviet Government of Bela Kun (which concomitantly was attacking Czechoslovakia).

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  • @Proud_Srbin

    is still used by the Empire to try to divide Orthodox Christians and Muslim to better rule over them all or, even better, to have them fight each other.
     
    It is still TABOO for professional analysts to CLEARLY state historical FACT that for the last 700-800 years the ROOT of all EVIL in the world hails from the Island north of today's France and their western and other satraps.

    And yet, 700 years later, people are safer from violent death, healthier, richer, longer lived, freer and more numerous in a more peaceful world than they have ever been. If that is evil, point out another hegemon with a better track record.

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  • @Antiwar7
    What are you talking about? I'm not making any "land claim[s]". I'm merely pointing out that the theory that Albanians are the descendants of Illyrians is not generally accepted by historians, and moreover this claim has been used by Albanian nationalists to make their own "land claims".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nationalism

    History is being continuously rewritten. It is not a science. At best it is scholarship.

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  • @Tom57
    Peter, you are the sweet voice of reason. I agree that a lot is unknowable. I for my part just know a bit about Bosnia. And it hits pretty close to home.


    It is a vicious circle. Can one break it? Not from within I believe. My personal hero is Milovan Djilas who fought on the side of Tito and then published the "New Class" For which he spent 10 years in prison. When he was interviewed in the Nineties he didn´t have a solution either.

    voice of reason

    And that is exactly the wrong approach here.
    We think about all that. Wrong.
    One has to feel it.

    I’ve spent a lot of time speaking with true nationalists from all sides. Not only Balkans types.
    Plenty of them much more intelligent and educated than me. I could sit for hours and just listen to a man.
    The knowledge, erudition, flow of thought, simply impressive.
    And the core, unshakable, belief that if “we” get rid of THEM, by any means necessary, we’ll have a paradise on earth.

    I agree that a lot is unknowable. I for my part just know a bit about Bosnia.

    I guess it goes into religion. And the religion goes into the deepest needs/traits of human nature. No idea, actually.
    But, on a practical level, that is how you can have PhD in humanities running a concentration camp. Or a devoted Christian beating to death a POW in that camp. Etc.

    It is a vicious circle. Can one break it? Not from within I believe.

    Agree.
    That’s why, at the end, international community had to step in and impose the peace.
    But, then, that community, or better, US leadership, really fucked up.

    Instead of imposing some sort of measured Imperial justice they simply used the region for own internal/foreign policy dealings.

    On practical level, appeasing Islamic world by punishing mostly Serbs and then to a lesser extent, Croats.
    This last, with Mladic and “Croat Six” is blatant example. Even now, with Trump and what not.
    And peoples there see it.

    The real conundrum is actually very simple:
    As long as The Empire’s iron grip is maintained there it will be peace there.
    A lot of people of this world want The Empire gone or at least weakened.
    As soon as that grip relaxes……..bang.
    So……

    My personal hero is Milovan Djilas who fought on the side of Tito and then published the “New Class” For which he spent 10 years in prison. When he was interviewed in the Nineties he didn´t have a solution either.

    Yup.
    Makes you think, a?

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    • Replies: @Tom57
    Actually it might not depend on the world view but on the actual quality of a man when he gets into a situation when he can decide the life or death of others. Milvan Djilas was a convinced Communist but if you read his autobiography he never forgot to mention the plight of his enemies. They were still people to him. Same the experience in the Bosnian war. You might have a Serb nationalist who was actually ashamed of what his countrymen did (I met such) and who would save some Muslim when he had the chance. You might have people of mixed heritage who would be the worst killers on the Serbian side.

    War is a mighty and terrible machine once it starts. There is no right and wrong after a while. It becomes an eternal vicious circle of atrocity, revenge, atrocity, revenge. That is where all those oh so educated nationalistic fantasists are to blame. They start a process where there is no end unless either the other nation is exterminated or else somebody steps in.
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  • @AP

    The Ukranian policy Hungary objects to makes it compulsory for Hungarian kids to learn in Ukranian language above the fourth grade in primary school, in secondary shool and at the university.
     
    Sure. But not only in Ukrainian. They will also have Hungarian-language classes all through high school. Previously it was only in Hungarian (or rather, 1-3 hours of Ukrainian per week). Students would graduate high school and be unable to go to university.

    And anyway, noone on Earth wants to learn Ukranian.
     
    I'm sure nobody outside Hungary cares to learn Hungarian. Should minorities within Hungary never learn the Hungarian language?

    The territory where they live is on the western side of the Carpathian Mountains, and belonged to Hungary from 895 to 1918.
     
    And Hungary belonged to Turkey and Austria for some times, so? Magyars originally came from Asia, did they not?

    The 80 percent of the population is NOT Ukranian but rusyn, and they are not even recognized by Ukraine as a nation.
     
    Most of them do not recognize themselves as a separate nation either. About 1% of those people claim to be Rusyns and not Ukrainians.

    That is because if they recognized them, they could become independent, and that is what they want.
     
    LOL, that must be why they vote for Ukrainian nationalists.

    But they dont dare to speak out, with Ukrainian chauvinist military groups marching on their streets.
     
    That's one interpretation. Are Fidesz and Jobbik similarly preventing the people of Hungary from declaring themselves a gypsy republic, or some such nonsense?

    Oh,it is of course no problem for a Ukranian, that Hungarians cannot learn in Hungarian at the Hungarian Universities. I dont expect any kind of understanding from you. And the rusyn people really exist, even if you dont recognise them. There were a legal referendum in 1991 in Kárpátalja when the wast majority woted for autonomy. Ukraine has been ignoring their decision ever since! And it seems also logical to me that people would prefer to live in a country that is part of the EU and where they can practise their minority rights, use their language freely, than in a backward country full of fascists. Just to make it clear how things stand in Hungary, concerning minority rights. The archbishop of Esztergom visited the Vatican City recently in order to lobby for gipsy language mess! I bet most gipsy doesn’t even know they have their own languages! This naivity was present in Hungary also before 1918. We edducated the intellectulas of our minorities, who then turned against us, and became separatists, and lobbied at the Entente powers to give them two thirds of our country.
    And I dont know what are you getting at with Hungarians Asian origin. First, it is not proven, second, we all came from Africa in the first place.

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    • Replies: @AP

    And the rusyn people really exist, even if you dont recognise them.
     
    I only care, if they recognize themselves, rather than are recognized by Hungarians. Only about 1% of the people whom you consider themselves to be a separate nation, Rusyns, actually consider themselves to be the separate nation, in Ukraine. These people in other places such as Serbia, and Hungary (there are perhaps 5,000 there) think differently and consider themselves to be Rusyns, as is their right. 150 years ago Galicians called themselves Rusyns also, btw.

    There were a legal referendum in 1991 in Kárpátalja when the wast majority woted for autonomy.
     
    Local Ukrainian nationalists supported autonomy because the Kiev government was run by communists.

    This naivity was present in Hungary also before 1918. We edducated the intellectulas of our minorities,
     
    Correction: you Magyarized the tiny % of people who were intellectuals, while keeping the masses uneducated. While Galicia had full literacy of students by around 1900, the poor Rusyns were more illiterate than were people in the Russian empire.
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  • @SrGrl
    Sorry Elite, but that's not true:

    Russians VETOED the Srebrenica genocide resolution. Churkin said that the Western version of events was a "distortion" where the blame is "basically placed on one people". China abstained saying the claim of genocide was "politically motivated"

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bosnia-srebrenica-un/russia-blocks-u-n-condemnation-of-srebrenica-as-a-genocide-idUSKCN0PI1W620150708

    That’s flipping the card. What Russia objected to was any press that the Serbs alone were responsible for genocide. The record is clear that even they called the Serbs behavior a bridge too far and pressed them to cease that activity.

    Now we could argue which side was worse. And i would fall to the side of the Serbs as defacto the powers that be with greater means of power to exercise force, hence the NATO intervention.

    But it would be disingenuous to claim that the UN vote by Russia exonerated Serbs from claims of genocide.

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  • @Dovla
    hey buddy,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Vojvodina

    Since first recorded census in 1787 you weren't majority, you weren't even plurality.

    Anyways I wouldn't go back to middle ages, I don't see how personal feud between Djuradj Brankovic and Janos Hunyadi is of relevance today. Or did you want to mention that as soon as the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. ended Hungarians immediately invaded from the north as Serbia was without an army and without a ruler.

    As for the Tito's thugs, one of his top two commanders was ethnic Hungarian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosta_Na%C4%91, so you can blame him too. And speaking of genocide of Albanians, lol. When Serbs had control of Kosovo, Albanians multiplied, settled and progressed. Unfortanately, Slobodan Milosevic was no Todor Zhivkov. When Albanians had control there were no Serbs remaining. Same in Croatia. And don't get me started on position of Serbs in Albania.

    I'll be using different handle, someone is using Vladimir also.

    The area between the Danube and the Sava rivers was part of Croatia and not Hungary. Its population was mostly slavic so it is not to be taken into consideration.
    The whole territory of Vojvodina had a vast Hungarian majority before 1526, the start of the Turkish invasion. Before the raiding Turkish armies Hungarians had to move to the northern, more protected parts of Hungary.
    This was an era of constant wars between the Habsburg Empire, the Turks and the Hungarian Principality of Transylvania, lasting 150 years.
    The destruction greatly reduced the Hungarian population which had to fight against the Turkish invaders and for its freedom against the Habsburgs at the same time.
    The Serbians started to migrate into the southern part of Hungary as part of the Thurkish military organization! At the and of the 1600′s Hungary was mostly liberated from the Turkish invaders.
    After 1690 tens of thousands of Serbians arrived, led by their patriarch, fleeing from the counter-attacks of the Turkish army. The Habsburgs settled them as border defenders.
    During the Hungarian war of independence between 1703 and 1711, the Serbians fought on the side of the Habsburg oppressors.
    During the 1700′s years the Hungarians continuously retuned to the territory, and more Serbians migrated in fleeing from the Turks. The Habsburgs sponsored the
    immigration of germans because they were politically reliable.
    During the war of independence between 1849-48, Serbians again were fighting against the Hungarians, burned their settlements and chased away the Hungarian population.
    In the second half of the 19th century, the territory regained its Hungarian majority, but this majority was in fact smaller than before 1526, the Turkish invasion. But the Serbians were absolute minority if we take into consideration the also large German population.
    In 1918, the Serbian army occupied the southern part of Hungary with the help of the French army! And Romanian and Czech armies were also invading our weakened country
    so we did not have any chance. After the resignation of the Habsburg Emperor our country finally became free, and a pacifist, Entente-friend prime minister took over power, whoose first decision was (sorrowfully) to disarm the Hungarian army returning trom the fronts.
    Only after that was he faced by the Entente powers plan, to take two thirds of our thousand years old country, the freedom for which we spilled so much blood in vain!
    After the Trianon treaty, the new rulers of Vojvodiana, the Serbians took the lands from the Hungarians and quickly started to destroy any sign of the land’s Hungarian origin. Thousands of Hungarians lost their jods and had to flee
    to what was left of Hungary.
    During the 20th century around one million new Serbian migrated into the more developed Vojvodina from the poorer parts of Serbia. For example, the largest city of the Serbian-Croatian-Slovenian Kingdom created in 1918 was Szabadka, a Hungarian settlement, and not Belgrad or any other slavic town. Szabadka still has a 50 percent Hungarian population and most remaining Hungarians live in a block near the Hungarian border.
    This all shows that Hungarian is the native population of Vojvodina, Serbians migrated into the area during the Turkish invasion. They were hostile to Hungarians throughout the history,
    though Hungarians could have lived together with them peacefully, as with many other nation. Hungarians accepted many nation into their homeland, Germans, slavs, Romanians, nomadic turk tribes. This has proven to be their fate.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    This is, of course, to self-servingly forget that the Hungarians (and the 'Kozar') were themselves invaders on territories where "Slavs, Bulgarians, Vlachs and the shepherds of the Romans" or "Slavs, Greeks, Germans, Moravians and Vlachs", were the native inhabitants of what was called "Pascua Romanorum" ("the Romans' pasturing lands") since Julius Caesar ('pabula Iulii Caesaris'), i.e. Pannonia and the Puzsta.
    Hungarians quickly offered themselves as the mercenaries of Papacy against Byzantium and enforcers of the Catholicization of the Orthodox populations.
    This is to forget also that the 'Romanian invasion' was actually repelling the attack of the murderous Bolshevik Soviet Government of Bela Kun (which concomitantly was attacking Czechoslovakia).
    , @Dovla
    Hey buddy,

    so your nomadic tribe was actually very peaceful, moved into empty territory, where no one lived before and has never attacked anyone? Good one. The only part of Hungarian kingdom that you annexed peacefully was Croatia. All those crusades your medieval rulers launched on Slavic population south of Sava river were also for their own good I suppose. God knows how many invasions you launched against Wallachia and Moldova.

    And the rest? So you fled from the Turks, Serbs moved in to fight the Turks, and you started moving back 300 years later when the Turkish danger passed and that somehow gives you right to the land? Good one.

    Keep 'em coming buddy.
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  • @peterAUS

    my head spins
     
    and

    there’s a lot more convoluted tribal, religions, nationalistic witches’ brew there to discombobulate the mind
     
    is understandable and that's O.K.

    I feel the same way when trying to understand modern art, for example (among other things).
    But, I don't go around lecturing people about modern art, and Hell no trying to, by force, impose my views of it.

    That is what, effectively, Western world does to Balkans, as we speak.
    Doesn't understand, doesn't try to understand it and uses forces to impose some "solutions".

    Can't be good and can't end well. Probably won't end well in not so distant future.

    BTW, that applies to the author of this article too.

    Peter, you are the sweet voice of reason. I agree that a lot is unknowable. I for my part just know a bit about Bosnia. And it hits pretty close to home.

    It is a vicious circle. Can one break it? Not from within I believe. My personal hero is Milovan Djilas who fought on the side of Tito and then published the “New Class” For which he spent 10 years in prison. When he was interviewed in the Nineties he didn´t have a solution either.

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    • Replies: @peterAUS

    voice of reason
     
    And that is exactly the wrong approach here.
    We think about all that. Wrong.
    One has to feel it.

    I've spent a lot of time speaking with true nationalists from all sides. Not only Balkans types.
    Plenty of them much more intelligent and educated than me. I could sit for hours and just listen to a man.
    The knowledge, erudition, flow of thought, simply impressive.
    And the core, unshakable, belief that if "we" get rid of THEM, by any means necessary, we'll have a paradise on earth.

    I agree that a lot is unknowable. I for my part just know a bit about Bosnia.

     

    I guess it goes into religion. And the religion goes into the deepest needs/traits of human nature. No idea, actually.
    But, on a practical level, that is how you can have PhD in humanities running a concentration camp. Or a devoted Christian beating to death a POW in that camp. Etc.

    It is a vicious circle. Can one break it? Not from within I believe.
     
    Agree.
    That's why, at the end, international community had to step in and impose the peace.
    But, then, that community, or better, US leadership, really fucked up.

    Instead of imposing some sort of measured Imperial justice they simply used the region for own internal/foreign policy dealings.

    On practical level, appeasing Islamic world by punishing mostly Serbs and then to a lesser extent, Croats.
    This last, with Mladic and "Croat Six" is blatant example. Even now, with Trump and what not.
    And peoples there see it.

    The real conundrum is actually very simple:
    As long as The Empire's iron grip is maintained there it will be peace there.
    A lot of people of this world want The Empire gone or at least weakened.
    As soon as that grip relaxes........bang.
    So......

    My personal hero is Milovan Djilas who fought on the side of Tito and then published the “New Class” For which he spent 10 years in prison. When he was interviewed in the Nineties he didn´t have a solution either.
     
    Yup.
    Makes you think, a?
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  • @Kiza
    Hello Rurik,

    now it’s the Zio-West, for whom the Serbs fought, who today are prosecuting Serbian nationalists as war criminals in their Zio-kangaroo court
     
    Sorry, but this is almost irrelevant. Today's Zionists have almost nothing to do with past Jewish victims of Nazism. Zionism is ideologically closer to Nazism than it is to Judaism. Not all Germanic people were Nazis and not all Jews are Zionists, but both were/are domineering ideologies of their time. This is why the Serbs and the Yugoslavs (children from mixed marriages) would have been naive or even stupid to expect compassion from the Zionists just because of the favors that their ancestors did to the Jews. The Zionists destroyed Yugoslavia because they did not create it and because it was a dress rehearsal for hunting their much bigger prey. Zionists love to turn mono-ethnic countries into multi-racial and multi-ethnic, as long as it is not Israel, but they are not terribly keen on supporting functioning multi-ethnic countries which have a tradition. I am speculating that this could be because then the Israelis may have to accept a similar model with the Arabs, or for some other reason.

    The best prototypical model of a modern Zionist is Ihor Kolomoyskyi, probably the man who shot-down MH17. I am sure that someone will some day write a really valuable study/book about this character. There are many such Zionists operating in the shadows, but this one is operating in a rough place and got more exposed than any other.

    Hello Kiza,

    thank you for the reply

    (in a way I feel I have no business participating in these threads about a region so far from my home, and who have suffered so terribly much. I just hope that less impassioned viewpoint is at least worth reading, and if not, everyone can ignore! ; )

    Today’s Zionists have almost nothing to do with past Jewish victims of Nazism.

    I respectfully disagree. I see the Zionists entire moral (as if!) hegemony as “justified” by the ‘gas chambers’.

    Zionism is ideologically closer to Nazism than it is to Judaism.

    brothers in uber-racism, but not even the most racial supremacist Nazi Aryan tried to claim that only Aryan’s had souls, and that God Himself put the Slavs here to serve the Aryans, as the Chabad Zionists and Orthodox Jews actually believe about themselves and the goyim.

    I am speculating that this could be because then the Israelis may have to accept a similar model with the Arabs, or for some other reason.

    I doubt it’s anything so thought out. If you want to understand what motivates all Zionist (and liberal, progressive and Orthodox and Chabad-Lubavitch Hasidic Jews), it is this:

    the goyim must be blended into a mongrel race with no appreciable heritage or culture.

    they are here to serve us, and the less connection they have to their history or ancestors, the more subservient they’ll be.

    and at the same time, us Jews must immerse ourselves in a Jewish culture with an obsession for a pure Jewish blood.

    - That’s Zionism, (and most of the rest of Jewish culture and motivations) in a nutshell. As far as I’ve been able to make out in my fifty something years on this rock.

    The best prototypical model of a modern Zionist is Ihor Kolomoyskyi, probably the man who shot-down MH17.

    I could not agree more!

    the quintessential Zionist Jew. Uses money looted from his victims to foist wars upon them. Loves, loves, loves to see the Gentiles slaughtering and maiming and hating each other, as he profits and profits and profits.

    A more loathsome human being it’s hard to imagine. He’s the Ukraine’s version of our John (bloodstain) McCain.

    There are many such Zionists operating in the shadows, but this one is operating in a rough place and got more exposed than any other.

    Soros is another one. There are lots of them, and the world will never know a day’s peace or happiness as long as these fiends are running the show.

    наздравље

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  • @BoBa
    Hello Saker,

    Thank you for accurate analysis.
    Being a Serb myself i fully agree with the facts you have given in short and concise story.
    It makes me sick this days to read zionist propaganda, watch (their) media here in Serbia.

    Unfortunately we still do not have streets named after numerous victims of NATO dirty campaign in Bosnia and Serbia. Not to count increased cancer rate which happened after the bombing.
    So far victors are writing the history one day in distant future or sooner people will know what words:
    "Free army, Democratic army, Liberation army/movement...etc" means exactly:
    Pure evil gang of thugs or "Society leftovers" - no one wants them and they are us/europe/israel/nato best export this days.

    Old proverb say "What goes around it comes around" - One day this Free/Democratic/Freedom Liberators will return to their "Democratic" countries and start selling drugs and do nasty things in their NATO society - it would not make me happy but relieved that they are left for good "and scum has come back home to place where it belongs ".

    BoBa

    BoBa .. and Nov-Dec 1991 Vukovar-Ovčara is just another Ustashi Croatian whore’s dream i guess.

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  • @peterAUS

    my head spins
     
    and

    there’s a lot more convoluted tribal, religions, nationalistic witches’ brew there to discombobulate the mind
     
    is understandable and that's O.K.

    I feel the same way when trying to understand modern art, for example (among other things).
    But, I don't go around lecturing people about modern art, and Hell no trying to, by force, impose my views of it.

    That is what, effectively, Western world does to Balkans, as we speak.
    Doesn't understand, doesn't try to understand it and uses forces to impose some "solutions".

    Can't be good and can't end well. Probably won't end well in not so distant future.

    BTW, that applies to the author of this article too.

    That is what, effectively, Western world does to Balkans, as we speak.
    Doesn’t understand, doesn’t try to understand it and uses forces to impose some “solutions”.

    Can’t be good and can’t end well. Probably won’t end well in not so distant future.

    the Western world today is controlled by Jewish bankers and Zionists. When they destabilize a region, they’re always doing what’s ‘good for the Zionists’. And you’re right, it will not end well.

    all the strife that the ZUSA has caused or exacerbated in the East is all to benefit Israel, even if indirectly. ((Nuland))/McCain went into Ukraine (and Georgia) to punish Putin for meddling in their wars.

    Bubba bombed Serbia to impose itself on an ethnic-nationalistic Christian nation, and as Kiza has pointed out, did so to get this new century (of zio-wars IMO) ramped up, especially to menace Russia.

    right now the zio-west is doing exactly as you describe in the greater Levant, ‘using force to impose its “solutions”.

    what I’d like to see is the entire world recognize that their provincial animosities are nothing compared to the bigger threat we all face. The horrors of the World Wars were imposed on all the nations involved by Jewish banksters in New York and London. The horrors being waged in Ukraine today are being done so by the Kagan cabal and other Zionist Jews like Kolomoyskyi, et al.

    I believe there’s nothing in this world that ((they’d)) love more than to see a massive war break out between Russia and the former Satellite states of Poland and the Baltic states and Ukraine, et al. They seem to be agitating for this relentlessly. (pardon the vulgarity) but they would cum in their pants at the prospect of millions of slaughtered Russian and Eastern Europeans. White Christians butchering white Christians. Just like ((their)) world wars. Such a deal!!!

    (just as ((they)) watch with barely restrained glee as Sunnis slaughter Shiites and vice versa)

    it is all the people of the planet vs. the Zionist Jewish banksters controlling “our” (Rothschild’s) central banks.

    (I know that’s simplistic)

    [but true ; ]

    BTW, that applies to the author of this article too.

    Saker is a myopic Russophile and can’t accept that Ukrainian nationals had every right and obligation to protect themselves from the Bolshevik demons that had recently genocided millions of the world’s best farmers by starving them to death. Slowly. With maximum cruelty.

    for many of these Russophiles, (Anatoly Karlin, others…) any Ukrainian (or Pole or Russian, etc..) who fought with the Nazis to destroy the Bolshevik fiend, were evil fascists fighting to ‘gas Ann Frank and six million Jews in ovens’.

    They too can’t see past their provincial hatreds and resentments. And so they play along with the devil’s narrative of the ‘Germans as the most evil thing ever!’, to demonize their rivals and heap opprobrium upon them.

    IMHO

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  • @Dovla
    The Balkans are very complicated. Two most important things : hatred that Catholic church has for all things Orthodox (around thousand years of persecution) and drive to keep Russia and its proxies from warm seas - that would be British agenda (Crimean War, dismantling of the treaty of San Stefano and Congress of Berlin in 1878.).

    . Two most important things : hatred that Catholic church has for all things Orthodox (around thousand years of persecution) and drive to keep Russia and its proxies from warm seas – that would be British agenda (Crimean War,

    thank you Dovia

    I agree with you that it all seems very complicated.

    I’ve talked to a few people from that region, and just like with Muslims and Europeans, they all seem to harbor more spite for some of their neighbors than for the bigger forces at play- that to me we are all pawns of.

    Croats vs. Serbs vs. Romanians vs. Albanians vs. Russians, and so forth… (not in that order)

    As an American my understanding is vastly more limited, if macro (meaningless) in my views of the region.

    I’ve always seen Eastern Europe as an historic bulwark between the forces (armies) of Islam vs. Christendom. A place of relentless encroachments and battles going on for century after bloody century.

    When Catholics fight Serbian Orthodox or Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox, it feels to me like the parochial fights between the Irish and British (or British vs. Russian) using religious differences as an excuse for the greed and power-lust of the respective rulers.

    Of course I know very, very little beyond my personal experiences and reading, but there it is.

    Being of European stock, and putatively Christian culture, I have to admit that I was appalled when Bill Clinton, (we know him as ‘Bubba’ – a huckster and liar), violated all tenets of International law codified since Nuremburg, and bombed Serbia into submission so that Muslim terrorists (and drug and human traffickers = KLA), could take control of this ancient battleground where so many heroic Serbs died staving off the Muslim hoards, I was very saddened.

    But then what did they expect when they stupidly and suicidally allowed the Albanians to proliferate? Demographics is destiny just as 2 + 2 = 4

    ….

    my own agenda is anti-war

    I feel like all people are entitled to self-determination, and this is the key to human happiness and stability, not to mention simple justice and decency

    I wish I could wave a wand and heal the ancient hatreds so many people have for their neighbors. Catholics vs. other Christians. Sunnis vs. Shiites. Jews vs. everyone else.

    most of the enmity between us is foisted upon us by cynical leaders who want us to be at odds with each other, so that they can wield power over us.

    IMHO

    На здоровье

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  • While the Saker writes some good stuff when he is sober, he is increasingly living in another reality when he is drunk. This is of course a crude asumption, but how else would you blatantly call out for war in another country, where you have no stakes ?
    The purpoted robbing of lands? Give me a break there! Millions of people have been disposessed and forcibly removed from their ancestral lands, if we history to go back just 300 years, half the earths populations would be another place. Yet you never hear of their claims to their “ancestral lands”, if you go back 500 years the situation just goes to pieces, it is impossible and not possible.
    Then very sublimely advocates ethnic cleansing, namely ” If I had a an Albanian friend….” This paragraph is chilling. And it comes of a person of Slav origin. The meaning is clear: Ethnic cleansing is good as long as it is righteous… Sorry Saker, you are no friend of mine, I hope your Russian friends will lay down the line and disconnect from such hidden threats. You might not favour Muslims, but to call on genocide (That is what you do) is immoral and criminal. If you want to put blame anywhere put it on named individuals and governments, not a population or an ethnic group. No people or ethnic group is evil, it is rubbish, indviduals and governments or political parties can be evil, but you are not because of your ethnicity.
    My ancestors did not languish in Nazi camps for me to sit silent and read such rubbish.

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  • @SrGrl
    "Serbians have been aggressively changing the ethnic composition". Have the Serbs burned down churches, Hungarian houses, killed Hungarians and harvested their organs? I think not...

    I agree the treaty of Trianon was very unfair to Hungary, but Hungary lost the war, and this was what the great powers imposed upon Hungary.

    Serbia lost the war with NATO. Just like Hungary in 1920, Serbia in 1999 had to accept the treaty that great powers imposed: UN 1244. UN1244 specifically states that Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia.

    Then in 2008, the US unilaterally violated UN1244 by recognising Kosovo as an independent state, thereby throwing the international order into limbo and undermining the territorial integrity of Serbia.

    This was typical bully behaviour. The only reason there was so little outrage in the West was because the Serbs had been demonised for long, so nobody really cared. But if the US can do this to the Serbia, it means they can do it to every and any country .

    Well, for Serbians, stealing a territory is Ok, but loosing a territory hurts badly. You have lost Kosovo for ever. A great power imposed this on you so you had better accept it. And anyway, you are greatly outnumbered by Albanians in Kosovo, so unless you commit some very nasty genocide, and you are very good at it, you will never get it back. And this is YOUR own logic I applied on YOU. But you can alternatively move your people out of Voivodina back to Kosovo, and give us back our land in exchange for yours.

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  • @Zimriel
    "Byzantine sources suggest that they hailed from Sicily no earlier than the 11th century."

    In that case the Albanian language should look like a Sardinian / Byzantine-Greek pidgin with a lot of Arabic. But it does not. Again: it looks like a separate language family (under Indo-European), mixed in with old Latin and Doric Greek. It looks like Illyrian under edge-Greek and then Roman influence.

    In the 1960s a ‘wildly speculative’ theory had its halcyon day. It belonged to a French writer, Zecharia Mayani, whose book “Les Etrusques commencent a parler (The Etruscans Begin to Speak)” put forth the thesis that the Etruscan language of antiquity had links to the modern Albanian language.
    The Albanian régime of Enver Hoxha eagerly grabbed it for propaganda reasons, and extended it to include the ancient Pelasgians.
    Now it is demonstrated that the Etruscans were immigrants to Italy from the regions of Anatolia (or, according to other theories, from Pannonia). Albanian language is, like most Balkanic languages, a pidgin language and the Etruscan elements in it could not have been taken from any Balkanic language, but most likely from Italic ones. The eccentric position of Albania in relation to the Balkanic ‘Slavdom’ and its closeness to Italy gives some weight to the affirmations of Byzantine sources (A short-lived ‘Kingdom of Albania’ was established by Charles of Anjou in the Albanian territories he conquered from the Byzantine Empire in 1271, with the aim of spreading Catholicism. These territories did not extend far from Durres).

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  • Zionists love to turn mono-ethnic countries into multi-racial and multi-ethnic

    The best prototypical model of a modern Zionist is Ihor Kolomoyskyi

    Contradictory..

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  • @Rurik

    all the anti-Serbian and anti-Russian nationalities that are commenting here eagerly joined them: Croatians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Bosnian Muslims, Galicians and so on. It is the same now when the ZioWahhabis are on the march, all the same nationalities are on the march together with the new Masters of the World....
     
    ...who were (and often are) the blood enemies of the Nazis

    whenever I try to understand and reconcile the endemic hatreds in that part of the world, and the alliances between the Nazis and Bolsheviks and Zionists and nationalists and Christians (both Catholic and Orthodox) and Muslims and Jews of yesterday and today, my head spins


    The Ustaše recognized both Roman Catholicism and Islam as the national religions of the Croatian people but initially rejected Orthodox Christianity as being incompatible with their objectives.[21] Although the Ustaše emphasized religious themes, it stressed that duty to the nation took precedence over religious custom.[36] In power, the Ustaše banned the use of the term "Serbian Orthodox faith", requiring "Greek-Eastern faith" in its place.[30] The Ustaše forcefully converted many Orthodox to Catholicism, murdered and expelled 85% of Orthodox priests[37], plundered and burnt many Orthodox Christian churches.[37] The Ustaše also persecuted Old Catholics who did not recognize papal infallibility.[30] The Ustaše altered their stance towards the Orthodox faith in August 1941 when the NDH allowed those Orthodox Serbs who held no political association with Serbia to be permitted to attain Croatian citizenship and be declared Aryans.[citation needed] On 2 July 1942 the Croatian Orthodox Church was founded, as a further means to destroy the Serbian Orthodox Church, but this new Church gained very few followers.[38]

    While initial focus was against Serbs, as the Ustase grew closer to the Nazis they adopted antisemitism.[39] In 1936, in “The Croat Question”, Ante Pavelić placed Jews third among “the Enemies of the Croats” (after Serbs and Freemasons, but before Communists): writing:


    ″Today, practically all finance and nearly all commerce in Croatia is in Jewish hands. This became possible only through the support of the state, which thereby seeks, on one hand, to strengthen the pro-Serbian Jews, and on the other, to weaken Croat national strength. The Jews celebrated the establishment of the so-called Yugoslav state with great joy, because a national Croatia could never be as useful to them as a multi-national Yugoslavia; for in national chaos lies the power of the Jews... In fact, as the Jews had foreseen, Yugoslavia became, in consequence of the corruption of official life in Serbia, a true Eldorado of Jewry.”[40]

    Once in power, the Ustaše immediately introduced a series of Nazi-style Racial Laws, sent most Jews to Ustaše and Nazi concentration camps - including the notorious, Ustaše-run, Jasenovac - where all told nearly, 32.000, or 80% of the Jews in the Independent State of Croatia, were exterminated.[41]
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e

    there's a lot more convoluted tribal, religions, nationalistic witches' brew there to discombobulate the mind

    and now it's the Zio-West, for whom the Serbs fought, who today are prosecuting Serbian nationalists as war criminals in their Zio-kangaroo court.

    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44928000/jpg/_44928801_-6.jpg

    Hello Rurik,

    now it’s the Zio-West, for whom the Serbs fought, who today are prosecuting Serbian nationalists as war criminals in their Zio-kangaroo court

    Sorry, but this is almost irrelevant. Today’s Zionists have almost nothing to do with past Jewish victims of Nazism. Zionism is ideologically closer to Nazism than it is to Judaism. Not all Germanic people were Nazis and not all Jews are Zionists, but both were/are domineering ideologies of their time. This is why the Serbs and the Yugoslavs (children from mixed marriages) would have been naive or even stupid to expect compassion from the Zionists just because of the favors that their ancestors did to the Jews. The Zionists destroyed Yugoslavia because they did not create it and because it was a dress rehearsal for hunting their much bigger prey. Zionists love to turn mono-ethnic countries into multi-racial and multi-ethnic, as long as it is not Israel, but they are not terribly keen on supporting functioning multi-ethnic countries which have a tradition. I am speculating that this could be because then the Israelis may have to accept a similar model with the Arabs, or for some other reason.

    The best prototypical model of a modern Zionist is Ihor Kolomoyskyi, probably the man who shot-down MH17. I am sure that someone will some day write a really valuable study/book about this character. There are many such Zionists operating in the shadows, but this one is operating in a rough place and got more exposed than any other.

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    Hello Kiza,

    thank you for the reply

    (in a way I feel I have no business participating in these threads about a region so far from my home, and who have suffered so terribly much. I just hope that less impassioned viewpoint is at least worth reading, and if not, everyone can ignore! ; )


    Today’s Zionists have almost nothing to do with past Jewish victims of Nazism.
     
    I respectfully disagree. I see the Zionists entire moral (as if!) hegemony as "justified" by the 'gas chambers'.

    Zionism is ideologically closer to Nazism than it is to Judaism.
     
    brothers in uber-racism, but not even the most racial supremacist Nazi Aryan tried to claim that only Aryan's had souls, and that God Himself put the Slavs here to serve the Aryans, as the Chabad Zionists and Orthodox Jews actually believe about themselves and the goyim.

    I am speculating that this could be because then the Israelis may have to accept a similar model with the Arabs, or for some other reason.
     
    I doubt it's anything so thought out. If you want to understand what motivates all Zionist (and liberal, progressive and Orthodox and Chabad-Lubavitch Hasidic Jews), it is this:

    the goyim must be blended into a mongrel race with no appreciable heritage or culture.

    they are here to serve us, and the less connection they have to their history or ancestors, the more subservient they'll be.

    and at the same time, us Jews must immerse ourselves in a Jewish culture with an obsession for a pure Jewish blood.

    - That's Zionism, (and most of the rest of Jewish culture and motivations) in a nutshell. As far as I've been able to make out in my fifty something years on this rock.


    The best prototypical model of a modern Zionist is Ihor Kolomoyskyi, probably the man who shot-down MH17.
     
    I could not agree more!

    the quintessential Zionist Jew. Uses money looted from his victims to foist wars upon them. Loves, loves, loves to see the Gentiles slaughtering and maiming and hating each other, as he profits and profits and profits.

    A more loathsome human being it's hard to imagine. He's the Ukraine's version of our John (bloodstain) McCain.


    There are many such Zionists operating in the shadows, but this one is operating in a rough place and got more exposed than any other.
     
    Soros is another one. There are lots of them, and the world will never know a day's peace or happiness as long as these fiends are running the show.

    наздравље

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  • AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:

    In sharp contrast to Crimea, there was no referendum in Kosovo before or after the “independence”. A referendum of sorts is going on right now: about a third of the population has already run away from that “paradise”.
    BTW, I think NATO should hurry up and accept Kosovo. After all, just recently it accepted Montenegro run by the local mafia boss for many years (for those who don’t know, in 2015 the OCCRP named Milo Djukanovic “man of the year in organized crime” https://www.occrp.org/personoftheyear/2015/). As Kosovo is also run by the local mafia, I don’t understand why NATO is procrastinating.

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  • @Rurik

    all the anti-Serbian and anti-Russian nationalities that are commenting here eagerly joined them: Croatians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Bosnian Muslims, Galicians and so on. It is the same now when the ZioWahhabis are on the march, all the same nationalities are on the march together with the new Masters of the World....
     
    ...who were (and often are) the blood enemies of the Nazis

    whenever I try to understand and reconcile the endemic hatreds in that part of the world, and the alliances between the Nazis and Bolsheviks and Zionists and nationalists and Christians (both Catholic and Orthodox) and Muslims and Jews of yesterday and today, my head spins


    The Ustaše recognized both Roman Catholicism and Islam as the national religions of the Croatian people but initially rejected Orthodox Christianity as being incompatible with their objectives.[21] Although the Ustaše emphasized religious themes, it stressed that duty to the nation took precedence over religious custom.[36] In power, the Ustaše banned the use of the term "Serbian Orthodox faith", requiring "Greek-Eastern faith" in its place.[30] The Ustaše forcefully converted many Orthodox to Catholicism, murdered and expelled 85% of Orthodox priests[37], plundered and burnt many Orthodox Christian churches.[37] The Ustaše also persecuted Old Catholics who did not recognize papal infallibility.[30] The Ustaše altered their stance towards the Orthodox faith in August 1941 when the NDH allowed those Orthodox Serbs who held no political association with Serbia to be permitted to attain Croatian citizenship and be declared Aryans.[citation needed] On 2 July 1942 the Croatian Orthodox Church was founded, as a further means to destroy the Serbian Orthodox Church, but this new Church gained very few followers.[38]

    While initial focus was against Serbs, as the Ustase grew closer to the Nazis they adopted antisemitism.[39] In 1936, in “The Croat Question”, Ante Pavelić placed Jews third among “the Enemies of the Croats” (after Serbs and Freemasons, but before Communists): writing:


    ″Today, practically all finance and nearly all commerce in Croatia is in Jewish hands. This became possible only through the support of the state, which thereby seeks, on one hand, to strengthen the pro-Serbian Jews, and on the other, to weaken Croat national strength. The Jews celebrated the establishment of the so-called Yugoslav state with great joy, because a national Croatia could never be as useful to them as a multi-national Yugoslavia; for in national chaos lies the power of the Jews... In fact, as the Jews had foreseen, Yugoslavia became, in consequence of the corruption of official life in Serbia, a true Eldorado of Jewry.”[40]

    Once in power, the Ustaše immediately introduced a series of Nazi-style Racial Laws, sent most Jews to Ustaše and Nazi concentration camps - including the notorious, Ustaše-run, Jasenovac - where all told nearly, 32.000, or 80% of the Jews in the Independent State of Croatia, were exterminated.[41]
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e

    there's a lot more convoluted tribal, religions, nationalistic witches' brew there to discombobulate the mind

    and now it's the Zio-West, for whom the Serbs fought, who today are prosecuting Serbian nationalists as war criminals in their Zio-kangaroo court.

    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44928000/jpg/_44928801_-6.jpg

    my head spins

    and

    there’s a lot more convoluted tribal, religions, nationalistic witches’ brew there to discombobulate the mind

    is understandable and that’s O.K.

    I feel the same way when trying to understand modern art, for example (among other things).
    But, I don’t go around lecturing people about modern art, and Hell no trying to, by force, impose my views of it.

    That is what, effectively, Western world does to Balkans, as we speak.
    Doesn’t understand, doesn’t try to understand it and uses forces to impose some “solutions”.

    Can’t be good and can’t end well. Probably won’t end well in not so distant future.

    BTW, that applies to the author of this article too.

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    That is what, effectively, Western world does to Balkans, as we speak.
    Doesn’t understand, doesn’t try to understand it and uses forces to impose some “solutions”.

    Can’t be good and can’t end well. Probably won’t end well in not so distant future.
     
    the Western world today is controlled by Jewish bankers and Zionists. When they destabilize a region, they're always doing what's 'good for the Zionists'. And you're right, it will not end well.

    all the strife that the ZUSA has caused or exacerbated in the East is all to benefit Israel, even if indirectly. ((Nuland))/McCain went into Ukraine (and Georgia) to punish Putin for meddling in their wars.

    Bubba bombed Serbia to impose itself on an ethnic-nationalistic Christian nation, and as Kiza has pointed out, did so to get this new century (of zio-wars IMO) ramped up, especially to menace Russia.

    right now the zio-west is doing exactly as you describe in the greater Levant, 'using force to impose its "solutions".

    what I'd like to see is the entire world recognize that their provincial animosities are nothing compared to the bigger threat we all face. The horrors of the World Wars were imposed on all the nations involved by Jewish banksters in New York and London. The horrors being waged in Ukraine today are being done so by the Kagan cabal and other Zionist Jews like Kolomoyskyi, et al.

    I believe there's nothing in this world that ((they'd)) love more than to see a massive war break out between Russia and the former Satellite states of Poland and the Baltic states and Ukraine, et al. They seem to be agitating for this relentlessly. (pardon the vulgarity) but they would cum in their pants at the prospect of millions of slaughtered Russian and Eastern Europeans. White Christians butchering white Christians. Just like ((their)) world wars. Such a deal!!!

    (just as ((they)) watch with barely restrained glee as Sunnis slaughter Shiites and vice versa)

    it is all the people of the planet vs. the Zionist Jewish banksters controlling "our" (Rothschild's) central banks.

    (I know that's simplistic)

    [but true ; ]

    BTW, that applies to the author of this article too.
     
    Saker is a myopic Russophile and can't accept that Ukrainian nationals had every right and obligation to protect themselves from the Bolshevik demons that had recently genocided millions of the world's best farmers by starving them to death. Slowly. With maximum cruelty.

    for many of these Russophiles, (Anatoly Karlin, others...) any Ukrainian (or Pole or Russian, etc..) who fought with the Nazis to destroy the Bolshevik fiend, were evil fascists fighting to 'gas Ann Frank and six million Jews in ovens'.

    They too can't see past their provincial hatreds and resentments. And so they play along with the devil's narrative of the 'Germans as the most evil thing ever!', to demonize their rivals and heap opprobrium upon them.

    IMHO
    , @Tom57
    Peter, you are the sweet voice of reason. I agree that a lot is unknowable. I for my part just know a bit about Bosnia. And it hits pretty close to home.


    It is a vicious circle. Can one break it? Not from within I believe. My personal hero is Milovan Djilas who fought on the side of Tito and then published the "New Class" For which he spent 10 years in prison. When he was interviewed in the Nineties he didn´t have a solution either.
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  • @Rurik

    all the anti-Serbian and anti-Russian nationalities that are commenting here eagerly joined them: Croatians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Bosnian Muslims, Galicians and so on. It is the same now when the ZioWahhabis are on the march, all the same nationalities are on the march together with the new Masters of the World....
     
    ...who were (and often are) the blood enemies of the Nazis

    whenever I try to understand and reconcile the endemic hatreds in that part of the world, and the alliances between the Nazis and Bolsheviks and Zionists and nationalists and Christians (both Catholic and Orthodox) and Muslims and Jews of yesterday and today, my head spins


    The Ustaše recognized both Roman Catholicism and Islam as the national religions of the Croatian people but initially rejected Orthodox Christianity as being incompatible with their objectives.[21] Although the Ustaše emphasized religious themes, it stressed that duty to the nation took precedence over religious custom.[36] In power, the Ustaše banned the use of the term "Serbian Orthodox faith", requiring "Greek-Eastern faith" in its place.[30] The Ustaše forcefully converted many Orthodox to Catholicism, murdered and expelled 85% of Orthodox priests[37], plundered and burnt many Orthodox Christian churches.[37] The Ustaše also persecuted Old Catholics who did not recognize papal infallibility.[30] The Ustaše altered their stance towards the Orthodox faith in August 1941 when the NDH allowed those Orthodox Serbs who held no political association with Serbia to be permitted to attain Croatian citizenship and be declared Aryans.[citation needed] On 2 July 1942 the Croatian Orthodox Church was founded, as a further means to destroy the Serbian Orthodox Church, but this new Church gained very few followers.[38]

    While initial focus was against Serbs, as the Ustase grew closer to the Nazis they adopted antisemitism.[39] In 1936, in “The Croat Question”, Ante Pavelić placed Jews third among “the Enemies of the Croats” (after Serbs and Freemasons, but before Communists): writing:


    ″Today, practically all finance and nearly all commerce in Croatia is in Jewish hands. This became possible only through the support of the state, which thereby seeks, on one hand, to strengthen the pro-Serbian Jews, and on the other, to weaken Croat national strength. The Jews celebrated the establishment of the so-called Yugoslav state with great joy, because a national Croatia could never be as useful to them as a multi-national Yugoslavia; for in national chaos lies the power of the Jews... In fact, as the Jews had foreseen, Yugoslavia became, in consequence of the corruption of official life in Serbia, a true Eldorado of Jewry.”[40]

    Once in power, the Ustaše immediately introduced a series of Nazi-style Racial Laws, sent most Jews to Ustaše and Nazi concentration camps - including the notorious, Ustaše-run, Jasenovac - where all told nearly, 32.000, or 80% of the Jews in the Independent State of Croatia, were exterminated.[41]
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e

    there's a lot more convoluted tribal, religions, nationalistic witches' brew there to discombobulate the mind

    and now it's the Zio-West, for whom the Serbs fought, who today are prosecuting Serbian nationalists as war criminals in their Zio-kangaroo court.

    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44928000/jpg/_44928801_-6.jpg

    The Balkans are very complicated. Two most important things : hatred that Catholic church has for all things Orthodox (around thousand years of persecution) and drive to keep Russia and its proxies from warm seas – that would be British agenda (Crimean War, dismantling of the treaty of San Stefano and Congress of Berlin in 1878.).

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    . Two most important things : hatred that Catholic church has for all things Orthodox (around thousand years of persecution) and drive to keep Russia and its proxies from warm seas – that would be British agenda (Crimean War,
     
    thank you Dovia

    I agree with you that it all seems very complicated.

    I've talked to a few people from that region, and just like with Muslims and Europeans, they all seem to harbor more spite for some of their neighbors than for the bigger forces at play- that to me we are all pawns of.

    Croats vs. Serbs vs. Romanians vs. Albanians vs. Russians, and so forth... (not in that order)

    As an American my understanding is vastly more limited, if macro (meaningless) in my views of the region.

    I've always seen Eastern Europe as an historic bulwark between the forces (armies) of Islam vs. Christendom. A place of relentless encroachments and battles going on for century after bloody century.

    When Catholics fight Serbian Orthodox or Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox, it feels to me like the parochial fights between the Irish and British (or British vs. Russian) using religious differences as an excuse for the greed and power-lust of the respective rulers.

    Of course I know very, very little beyond my personal experiences and reading, but there it is.

    Being of European stock, and putatively Christian culture, I have to admit that I was appalled when Bill Clinton, (we know him as 'Bubba' - a huckster and liar), violated all tenets of International law codified since Nuremburg, and bombed Serbia into submission so that Muslim terrorists (and drug and human traffickers = KLA), could take control of this ancient battleground where so many heroic Serbs died staving off the Muslim hoards, I was very saddened.

    But then what did they expect when they stupidly and suicidally allowed the Albanians to proliferate? Demographics is destiny just as 2 + 2 = 4

    ....

    my own agenda is anti-war

    I feel like all people are entitled to self-determination, and this is the key to human happiness and stability, not to mention simple justice and decency

    I wish I could wave a wand and heal the ancient hatreds so many people have for their neighbors. Catholics vs. other Christians. Sunnis vs. Shiites. Jews vs. everyone else.

    most of the enmity between us is foisted upon us by cynical leaders who want us to be at odds with each other, so that they can wield power over us.

    IMHO

    На здоровье
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  • @Seraphim
    It is not that sure that the Albanians are native occupants of the Balkans (least of all the original native "Thraco-Illyrians"). They have always been a tiny minority (they are not mentioned before the 11th century and their language recorded only in the 13th century) in a see of Slavic populations and even today Albanian population is just 5m all over the place vs 23-24 m Slavs (Serbo-Croats 14-15m, Bulgarians 7m, Macedonians 2m).
    Byzantine sources suggest that they hailed from Sicily no earlier than the 11th century.

    “Byzantine sources suggest that they hailed from Sicily no earlier than the 11th century.”

    In that case the Albanian language should look like a Sardinian / Byzantine-Greek pidgin with a lot of Arabic. But it does not. Again: it looks like a separate language family (under Indo-European), mixed in with old Latin and Doric Greek. It looks like Illyrian under edge-Greek and then Roman influence.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    In the 1960s a 'wildly speculative' theory had its halcyon day. It belonged to a French writer, Zecharia Mayani, whose book "Les Etrusques commencent a parler (The Etruscans Begin to Speak)" put forth the thesis that the Etruscan language of antiquity had links to the modern Albanian language.
    The Albanian régime of Enver Hoxha eagerly grabbed it for propaganda reasons, and extended it to include the ancient Pelasgians.
    Now it is demonstrated that the Etruscans were immigrants to Italy from the regions of Anatolia (or, according to other theories, from Pannonia). Albanian language is, like most Balkanic languages, a pidgin language and the Etruscan elements in it could not have been taken from any Balkanic language, but most likely from Italic ones. The eccentric position of Albania in relation to the Balkanic 'Slavdom' and its closeness to Italy gives some weight to the affirmations of Byzantine sources (A short-lived 'Kingdom of Albania' was established by Charles of Anjou in the Albanian territories he conquered from the Byzantine Empire in 1271, with the aim of spreading Catholicism. These territories did not extend far from Durres).
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  • @AP

    It’s not a rhetorical question because I, at least, have an answer: Albanians come from Kosovo; Serbs -as Slavs – come from Poland and Kievan Rus.
     
    Actually, genetics shows that Serbs are only about 15%-20% Slavic. That makes them as Slavic as African-Americans are European. Most Serb ancestry is non-Slavic, local. Serbs are locals who mixed a little bit with Slavs but adopted the Slavic language; Albanians are less-mixed locals who retained the original language. Therefore, Kosovo is native Serbian land.

    Serbs are locals who mixed a little bit with Slavs but adopted the Slavic language; Albanians are less-mixed locals who retained the original language. Therefore, Kosovo is native Serbian land.

    This argument works better as an argument that the Serbs in Kosovo and in a good part of Serbia too should re-adopt their ancestral, Albanian language.

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  • @Kiza
    Thanks geo, I have been trying to explain the same for years now. What happened to Yugoslavia would not have happened without the ZioWahhabis, although the stupid local hates, exhibited so well in the trollish bull of so many comments here, helped the war along too much. In other words, the war in Yugoslavia would not have happened without ZioWahhabis playing on ethnic and religious conflict, but the war would have still failed to develop without the local hates.

    Another thing that I have been pointing out since I can remember, that Serbia is a dress-rehearsal for the big game (as in hunting) - Russia is now coming through. The same as when the Germanic Nazis started their Drang nach Osten for Lebensraum and resources, all the anti-Serbian and anti-Russian nationalities that are commenting here eagerly joined them: Croatians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Bosnian Muslims, Galicians and so on. It is the same now when the ZioWahhabis are on the march, all the same nationalities are on the march together with the new Masters of the World.

    I can only hope that if we win this time again, we will be much less forgiving towards those who customarily become victims once they lose the wars they eagerly participate in.

    all the anti-Serbian and anti-Russian nationalities that are commenting here eagerly joined them: Croatians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Bosnian Muslims, Galicians and so on. It is the same now when the ZioWahhabis are on the march, all the same nationalities are on the march together with the new Masters of the World….

    …who were (and often are) the blood enemies of the Nazis

    whenever I try to understand and reconcile the endemic hatreds in that part of the world, and the alliances between the Nazis and Bolsheviks and Zionists and nationalists and Christians (both Catholic and Orthodox) and Muslims and Jews of yesterday and today, my head spins

    The Ustaše recognized both Roman Catholicism and Islam as the national religions of the Croatian people but initially rejected Orthodox Christianity as being incompatible with their objectives.[21] Although the Ustaše emphasized religious themes, it stressed that duty to the nation took precedence over religious custom.[36] In power, the Ustaše banned the use of the term “Serbian Orthodox faith”, requiring “Greek-Eastern faith” in its place.[30] The Ustaše forcefully converted many Orthodox to Catholicism, murdered and expelled 85% of Orthodox priests[37], plundered and burnt many Orthodox Christian churches.[37] The Ustaše also persecuted Old Catholics who did not recognize papal infallibility.[30] The Ustaše altered their stance towards the Orthodox faith in August 1941 when the NDH allowed those Orthodox Serbs who held no political association with Serbia to be permitted to attain Croatian citizenship and be declared Aryans.[citation needed] On 2 July 1942 the Croatian Orthodox Church was founded, as a further means to destroy the Serbian Orthodox Church, but this new Church gained very few followers.[38]

    While initial focus was against Serbs, as the Ustase grew closer to the Nazis they adopted antisemitism.[39] In 1936, in “The Croat Question”, Ante Pavelić placed Jews third among “the Enemies of the Croats” (after Serbs and Freemasons, but before Communists): writing:

    ″Today, practically all finance and nearly all commerce in Croatia is in Jewish hands. This became possible only through the support of the state, which thereby seeks, on one hand, to strengthen the pro-Serbian Jews, and on the other, to weaken Croat national strength. The Jews celebrated the establishment of the so-called Yugoslav state with great joy, because a national Croatia could never be as useful to them as a multi-national Yugoslavia; for in national chaos lies the power of the Jews… In fact, as the Jews had foreseen, Yugoslavia became, in consequence of the corruption of official life in Serbia, a true Eldorado of Jewry.”[40]

    Once in power, the Ustaše immediately introduced a series of Nazi-style Racial Laws, sent most Jews to Ustaše and Nazi concentration camps – including the notorious, Ustaše-run, Jasenovac – where all told nearly, 32.000, or 80% of the Jews in the Independent State of Croatia, were exterminated.[41]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e

    there’s a lot more convoluted tribal, religions, nationalistic witches’ brew there to discombobulate the mind

    and now it’s the Zio-West, for whom the Serbs fought, who today are prosecuting Serbian nationalists as war criminals in their Zio-kangaroo court.

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    • Replies: @Dovla
    The Balkans are very complicated. Two most important things : hatred that Catholic church has for all things Orthodox (around thousand years of persecution) and drive to keep Russia and its proxies from warm seas - that would be British agenda (Crimean War, dismantling of the treaty of San Stefano and Congress of Berlin in 1878.).
    , @peterAUS

    my head spins
     
    and

    there’s a lot more convoluted tribal, religions, nationalistic witches’ brew there to discombobulate the mind
     
    is understandable and that's O.K.

    I feel the same way when trying to understand modern art, for example (among other things).
    But, I don't go around lecturing people about modern art, and Hell no trying to, by force, impose my views of it.

    That is what, effectively, Western world does to Balkans, as we speak.
    Doesn't understand, doesn't try to understand it and uses forces to impose some "solutions".

    Can't be good and can't end well. Probably won't end well in not so distant future.

    BTW, that applies to the author of this article too.
    , @Kiza
    Hello Rurik,

    now it’s the Zio-West, for whom the Serbs fought, who today are prosecuting Serbian nationalists as war criminals in their Zio-kangaroo court
     
    Sorry, but this is almost irrelevant. Today's Zionists have almost nothing to do with past Jewish victims of Nazism. Zionism is ideologically closer to Nazism than it is to Judaism. Not all Germanic people were Nazis and not all Jews are Zionists, but both were/are domineering ideologies of their time. This is why the Serbs and the Yugoslavs (children from mixed marriages) would have been naive or even stupid to expect compassion from the Zionists just because of the favors that their ancestors did to the Jews. The Zionists destroyed Yugoslavia because they did not create it and because it was a dress rehearsal for hunting their much bigger prey. Zionists love to turn mono-ethnic countries into multi-racial and multi-ethnic, as long as it is not Israel, but they are not terribly keen on supporting functioning multi-ethnic countries which have a tradition. I am speculating that this could be because then the Israelis may have to accept a similar model with the Arabs, or for some other reason.

    The best prototypical model of a modern Zionist is Ihor Kolomoyskyi, probably the man who shot-down MH17. I am sure that someone will some day write a really valuable study/book about this character. There are many such Zionists operating in the shadows, but this one is operating in a rough place and got more exposed than any other.

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  • @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Give me some proof except the one that is totally idiotic that Albanians are white Europeans,

    lightly perusing this thread

    totally idiotic that Albanians are white Europeans,

    whenever someone asks me who is white, I always respond that such things have been decided for us in the West

    basically it’s anyone who it is legal to discriminate against in ZUSA (and elsewhere in the Zio-West), and that would definitely include Albanians, (like the Belushi brothers for instance), who are definitely white based on the legal description used to discriminate against all white men

    if you were born in the ZUSA, then you can cry that you’re Albanian all day long, and they’d still tell you to take your white arse to the back of the line.

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    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    You are not capable to get me either.
    Albania is the name of the state. Serbia is a name of state. Serbs, Croats, Bosnians are ethnic Slavs.
    What is the ethnic origin of Albanians?
    How Albanians did get into Serbia? Did they invade Serbia?
    Which year was the battle when Albanians defeated Serbia and some of them settled there.
    Wikipedia is idiotic in this case. And those following Wikipedia are double idiots.
    , @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Did Wikipedia heard about Enver Hodja?
    Check it out.
    And Belushi brothers are not Albanians. They are Hungarian Gypsies. (one overdosed.)
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  • @peterAUS
    I (re) read my post, and, naturally, felt I left some points out.
    That happens when one wants to ...."solve"....this problem in a comment on a Website.

    First of all, who is saying that the "troubles" in 90's were, fundamentally, morally wrong?

    Let's see that from a Croatian perspective, for example, first:
    They wanted an independent, sovereign state of their own. It's that simple.
    And they got it. Simple again.
    Similar to a lot of states/countries that popped up after the fall of Communism.
    Belorussia for, I guess, the least controversial example.
    Have to mention Estonia too....

    So, fundamentally, the "troubles" weren't bad/wrong for Croats.
    Of course, even among Croats you can find endless debates of "could've/should've", but, on a most fundamental level they got that state they wanted. When I say "they" I mean a majority of Croats.
    Now, about several zillions Serbs/Croats could jump at my throat with encyclopedia of rebuttals/rejections/blah blah, of course. Especially Serbs.

    Similar to Albanians in Yugoslavia. They wanted independence. They got it.
    Slovenians. Same.

    So, at least 3 ethnic groups/peoples there actually got what they wanted. That it required "blood and tears" is obvious, so what? Getting an independent state/entity usually demands that.
    Americans (this is their site after all) could try to remind us here again how they got the USA?

    Now, one can start arguing "is it worth going through all that/doing all that" to get that state/country.
    A good question.
    Is it? Why not/why yes?
    And, before majority here starts getting too cocky, well, again, how did USA get into existence?
    Was it worth?
    Yeah............

    Did Croats, for example, get exactly what they wanted is totally another question.
    Probably around 90 % of them didn't, but that's another matter.
    Like, are Americans happy with what's going on with them/their country recently.

    So, when some people say "all nationalism bad/all nationalists bad" etc. well.....the independent state of Croatia is a reality now. Part of West, majority of Croats wanted. EU, NATO, the works.
    So, Croat nationalists, fundamentally, delivered what the majority of their kin/nation/ethnic group wanted.
    For majority of Croats their nationalism was/is good. Or Slovenes.

    That Serbs are sort of on the opposite side of that success is another matter altogether.

    Did you see this Russian babushka dolls? Think about it!!!!

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  • anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    There’s a lot of back and forth about the relative merits of the various groups in the Balkans. One thing is certain, however, and that is that the US is not located there. Yet the US sticks it’s nose everywhere, going on bombing campaigns in the Balkans, a place your average American is only dimly aware of. What gives the US the right to bomb and kill people all over the world?

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  • @peterAUS
    Well….for a couple of reasons “troubles” in Balkans have been a pet project of mine for quite some time. Whoever is really interested in the topic can easy find related material and even communicate with people on the ground. Not many Westerners do that for, I believe, peculiar reasons.

    Vladimir would be comical if people like him weren´t that serious. And they are all the same. You can hear the same kind of trash from all the Nationalists in Eastern Europe. Word for word just with other locations and other symbols. Always the fount of civilisation, the poor oppressed robbed of their civilisation and so on and so forth ad nauseum. But nowhere worse than the Balkans.
     
    Agree.
    The problem is, such types had an opportunity, and they have realized it, twice so far over there, in span of 3 generations. That definitely made a lot of difference on the ground as we speak.
    It’s one thing saying all that in a pub. It’s quite another methodically “ethnically cleansing” complete regions. The euphemism doesn’t even begin to describe how that really looks like on the ground.

    But it is also true that the silent majority is sick of those people. They just can´t be bothered or else don´t dare to speak up. At least that is my experience travelling around Bosnia.
     
    I believe you are wrong.
    Now….that’s a big topic and probably not for a site like this, but, that’s not so simple and optimistic as you say, IMHO.
    The primary motive last time for the majority wasn’t hate against OTHER. Yes, as you’ve noticed, you always have “true believers” who do hate and are capable of anything. But…..the primary motive was, actually, “I have no choice but to join”. And, well, majority of peoples over there don’t, for historical reasons, really say in public what they think/feel in private. You, as an “outsider” were treated as, well, outsider from West. To be insider isn’t enough to be of the same religion/ethnicity/nation. You have to be from the same region, speak with the same accent too. A Catholic Croat from Istria is an outsider, for example, for a Catholic Croat from Herzegovina. The same principle applies everywhere over there.

    If somebody came in and shot the worst bigots everybody would be relieved. People like Vladimir weren´t allowed their nonsense in the time of Tito. It would have been straight to jail. Ok, no freedom of expression and no democracy.
     
    I see.
    Well, not quite. Dangerously simplistic, even.
    Defining a bigot there is not an easy exercise.
    For example, both Mladic and Praljak could be defined as bigots. But, compared to leadership types in West, don’t they have some, actually, high qualities? Take a look at their resumes/life history.
    As for jail, true. But, both Mladic and Praljak were successful people during Tito’s regime. Didn’t go to jail then. Then, when the environment changed, bang, they, somehow, became, by Western standards bigots, monsters, genocidal maniacs etc.
    Trying to understand that fast and easy is wrong and shall create problems again.
    You mentioned “no freedom of expression and no democracy”. Well, what then? Constant dictatorships for those peoples there? Why? That, then, means that something is wrong with them? By whose standards? Sounds racist....haha...
    The problems are much more deeper and complicated. Hence, the solutions.

    In the 80s the rot sat in and people like him were allowed to peddle their nonsense.
     
    The rot started immediately after WW2, I believe. But, again, we could start debating the issue for years and came up with nothing of substance. One can see it everywhere where people …”debate”…history.
    The core problem, IMHO, is actually very simple.
    This problem requires everyone to sit and openly and honestly talk about the issue.
    Now…tell me…..where in the world you can see that? Do, in West, as we speak, opposing views are debated/resolved in such a way? Westerners can’t do that for a simple thing as police violence, for example. Wanting Balkans people to do the same for several hundreds of years of bloody history sounds….patronizing and hypocritical, to say the least.
    Tito’s regime didn’t handle nationalism well, obviously.
    Now, we have West handling the same thing. You believe it’s better? I don’t.
    My point is, it’s not easy even if one wants to resolve it. The tragedy is, the most of people over thre did believe that “International Community” will help them to, finally, resolve all that. It didn’t.

    What you need is the naked self interest of an outside force. That is much more sustainable.
     
    Perhaps. But ,as soon it weakens, the unresolved suppressed problem erupts again.

    To the wall with those fanatics!!!
     
    Perhaps. That’s what Tito did at the end of the WW 2. Didn’t work, obviously.
    The fanatics, as you call them, didn’t, at the time, materialize out of thin air. They turned up from ordinary people when the iron grip of Communist rule relaxed.
    The environment breeds them. That environment needs understanding and then, hopefully, resolving.
    I don’t see how, at least not in my lifetime.

    I (re) read my post, and, naturally, felt I left some points out.
    That happens when one wants to ….”solve”….this problem in a comment on a Website.

    First of all, who is saying that the “troubles” in 90′s were, fundamentally, morally wrong?

    Let’s see that from a Croatian perspective, for example, first:
    They wanted an independent, sovereign state of their own. It’s that simple.
    And they got it. Simple again.
    Similar to a lot of states/countries that popped up after the fall of Communism.
    Belorussia for, I guess, the least controversial example.
    Have to mention Estonia too….

    So, fundamentally, the “troubles” weren’t bad/wrong for Croats.
    Of course, even among Croats you can find endless debates of “could’ve/should’ve”, but, on a most fundamental level they got that state they wanted. When I say “they” I mean a majority of Croats.
    Now, about several zillions Serbs/Croats could jump at my throat with encyclopedia of rebuttals/rejections/blah blah, of course. Especially Serbs.

    Similar to Albanians in Yugoslavia. They wanted independence. They got it.
    Slovenians. Same.

    So, at least 3 ethnic groups/peoples there actually got what they wanted. That it required “blood and tears” is obvious, so what? Getting an independent state/entity usually demands that.
    Americans (this is their site after all) could try to remind us here again how they got the USA?

    Now, one can start arguing “is it worth going through all that/doing all that” to get that state/country.
    A good question.
    Is it? Why not/why yes?
    And, before majority here starts getting too cocky, well, again, how did USA get into existence?
    Was it worth?
    Yeah…………

    Did Croats, for example, get exactly what they wanted is totally another question.
    Probably around 90 % of them didn’t, but that’s another matter.
    Like, are Americans happy with what’s going on with them/their country recently.

    So, when some people say “all nationalism bad/all nationalists bad” etc. well…..the independent state of Croatia is a reality now. Part of West, majority of Croats wanted. EU, NATO, the works.
    So, Croat nationalists, fundamentally, delivered what the majority of their kin/nation/ethnic group wanted.
    For majority of Croats their nationalism was/is good. Or Slovenes.

    That Serbs are sort of on the opposite side of that success is another matter altogether.

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    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Did you see this Russian babushka dolls? Think about it!!!!
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  • @Szabolcs
    The Ukranian policy Hungary objects to makes it compulsory for Hungarian kids to learn in Ukranian language above the fourth grade in primary school, in secondary shool and at the university. Every nation must have the right to learn on its mother tongue. And anyway, noone on Earth wants to learn Ukranian. Moreover noone on Earth wants to live in Ukraine. Hungarians have to live in that country because their homeland was torn out of Hungary, and given to Czechoslovakia, than to the Soviet Union and after the CCCP crumbled, they became part of Ukraine. The territory where they live is on the western side of the Carpathian Mountains, and belonged to Hungary from 895 to 1918. The 80 percent of the population is NOT Ukranian but rusyn, and they are not even recognized by Ukraine as a nation. That is because if they recognized them, they could become independent, and that is what they want. Their best chance would be to return to Hungary as an autonomous region, and become part of the EU, which they have absolutely zero chance to achieve as part of Ukraine. But they dont dare to speak out, with Ukrainian chauvinist military groups marching on their streets. Hungary should demand self determination for that region. And as for the ridiculous Venice Commission, they are in no position to tell any national group how they should live their lives. They are just singing from the music sheet of the zionists who rule Ukraine in coalition with the Ukrainian fascists.

    The Ukranian policy Hungary objects to makes it compulsory for Hungarian kids to learn in Ukranian language above the fourth grade in primary school, in secondary shool and at the university.

    Sure. But not only in Ukrainian. They will also have Hungarian-language classes all through high school. Previously it was only in Hungarian (or rather, 1-3 hours of Ukrainian per week). Students would graduate high school and be unable to go to university.

    And anyway, noone on Earth wants to learn Ukranian.

    I’m sure nobody outside Hungary cares to learn Hungarian. Should minorities within Hungary never learn the Hungarian language?

    The territory where they live is on the western side of the Carpathian Mountains, and belonged to Hungary from 895 to 1918.

    And Hungary belonged to Turkey and Austria for some times, so? Magyars originally came from Asia, did they not?

    The 80 percent of the population is NOT Ukranian but rusyn, and they are not even recognized by Ukraine as a nation.

    Most of them do not recognize themselves as a separate nation either. About 1% of those people claim to be Rusyns and not Ukrainians.

    That is because if they recognized them, they could become independent, and that is what they want.

    LOL, that must be why they vote for Ukrainian nationalists.

    But they dont dare to speak out, with Ukrainian chauvinist military groups marching on their streets.

    That’s one interpretation. Are Fidesz and Jobbik similarly preventing the people of Hungary from declaring themselves a gypsy republic, or some such nonsense?

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    • Replies: @Szabolcs
    Oh,it is of course no problem for a Ukranian, that Hungarians cannot learn in Hungarian at the Hungarian Universities. I dont expect any kind of understanding from you. And the rusyn people really exist, even if you dont recognise them. There were a legal referendum in 1991 in Kárpátalja when the wast majority woted for autonomy. Ukraine has been ignoring their decision ever since! And it seems also logical to me that people would prefer to live in a country that is part of the EU and where they can practise their minority rights, use their language freely, than in a backward country full of fascists. Just to make it clear how things stand in Hungary, concerning minority rights. The archbishop of Esztergom visited the Vatican City recently in order to lobby for gipsy language mess! I bet most gipsy doesn't even know they have their own languages! This naivity was present in Hungary also before 1918. We edducated the intellectulas of our minorities, who then turned against us, and became separatists, and lobbied at the Entente powers to give them two thirds of our country.
    And I dont know what are you getting at with Hungarians Asian origin. First, it is not proven, second, we all came from Africa in the first place.
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  • @Szabolcs
    Wikipedia if you please:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1cs-Bodrog_County

    Bács-Bodrog County:
    In 1910, the county had a population of 812,385 people and was composed of the following linguistic communities:

    Hungarian: 363,518 (44,8%)
    German: 190,697 (23,5%)
    Serbian: 145,063 (17,9%)
    Slovak: 30,137 (3,7%)
    Ruthenian: 10,760 (1,3%)
    Croatian: 1,279 (0,2%)
    Romanian: 386 (0,0%)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toront%C3%A1l_County

    In 1910, the county had a population of 615,151 people and was composed of the following linguistic communities:

    Serbian: 199,750 (32,5%)
    German: 165,779 (26,9%)
    Hungarian: 128,405 (20,9%)
    Romanian: 86,937 (14,1%)
    Slovak: 16,143 (2,6%)
    Croatian: 4,203 (0,7%)
    Ruthenian: 11 (0,1%)
    Other or unknown: 13,923 (2,3%)

    Total: 490,000 Hungarian, 355,000 German, 344,000 Serbian in 1910.
    Serbians were absolute minority.

    And immigration does NEVER justify for territory theft. You Serbians and Romanians are no more than petty thieves from the deep Balkans.

    Tito's thugs committed genocide agains the Hungarians just as Milosevic agains the Albanians. I have more respect for the people of Skanderbeg, than the people of Đurađ Branković, the traitor of the battle of Kosovo (1448).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kosovo_(1448)

    hey buddy,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Vojvodina

    Since first recorded census in 1787 you weren’t majority, you weren’t even plurality.

    Anyways I wouldn’t go back to middle ages, I don’t see how personal feud between Djuradj Brankovic and Janos Hunyadi is of relevance today. Or did you want to mention that as soon as the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. ended Hungarians immediately invaded from the north as Serbia was without an army and without a ruler.

    As for the Tito’s thugs, one of his top two commanders was ethnic Hungarian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosta_Na%C4%91, so you can blame him too. And speaking of genocide of Albanians, lol. When Serbs had control of Kosovo, Albanians multiplied, settled and progressed. Unfortanately, Slobodan Milosevic was no Todor Zhivkov. When Albanians had control there were no Serbs remaining. Same in Croatia. And don’t get me started on position of Serbs in Albania.

    I’ll be using different handle, someone is using Vladimir also.

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    • Replies: @Szabolcs
    The area between the Danube and the Sava rivers was part of Croatia and not Hungary. Its population was mostly slavic so it is not to be taken into consideration.
    The whole territory of Vojvodina had a vast Hungarian majority before 1526, the start of the Turkish invasion. Before the raiding Turkish armies Hungarians had to move to the northern, more protected parts of Hungary.
    This was an era of constant wars between the Habsburg Empire, the Turks and the Hungarian Principality of Transylvania, lasting 150 years.
    The destruction greatly reduced the Hungarian population which had to fight against the Turkish invaders and for its freedom against the Habsburgs at the same time.
    The Serbians started to migrate into the southern part of Hungary as part of the Thurkish military organization! At the and of the 1600's Hungary was mostly liberated from the Turkish invaders.
    After 1690 tens of thousands of Serbians arrived, led by their patriarch, fleeing from the counter-attacks of the Turkish army. The Habsburgs settled them as border defenders.
    During the Hungarian war of independence between 1703 and 1711, the Serbians fought on the side of the Habsburg oppressors.
    During the 1700's years the Hungarians continuously retuned to the territory, and more Serbians migrated in fleeing from the Turks. The Habsburgs sponsored the
    immigration of germans because they were politically reliable.
    During the war of independence between 1849-48, Serbians again were fighting against the Hungarians, burned their settlements and chased away the Hungarian population.
    In the second half of the 19th century, the territory regained its Hungarian majority, but this majority was in fact smaller than before 1526, the Turkish invasion. But the Serbians were absolute minority if we take into consideration the also large German population.
    In 1918, the Serbian army occupied the southern part of Hungary with the help of the French army! And Romanian and Czech armies were also invading our weakened country
    so we did not have any chance. After the resignation of the Habsburg Emperor our country finally became free, and a pacifist, Entente-friend prime minister took over power, whoose first decision was (sorrowfully) to disarm the Hungarian army returning trom the fronts.
    Only after that was he faced by the Entente powers plan, to take two thirds of our thousand years old country, the freedom for which we spilled so much blood in vain!
    After the Trianon treaty, the new rulers of Vojvodiana, the Serbians took the lands from the Hungarians and quickly started to destroy any sign of the land's Hungarian origin. Thousands of Hungarians lost their jods and had to flee
    to what was left of Hungary.
    During the 20th century around one million new Serbian migrated into the more developed Vojvodina from the poorer parts of Serbia. For example, the largest city of the Serbian-Croatian-Slovenian Kingdom created in 1918 was Szabadka, a Hungarian settlement, and not Belgrad or any other slavic town. Szabadka still has a 50 percent Hungarian population and most remaining Hungarians live in a block near the Hungarian border.
    This all shows that Hungarian is the native population of Vojvodina, Serbians migrated into the area during the Turkish invasion. They were hostile to Hungarians throughout the history,
    though Hungarians could have lived together with them peacefully, as with many other nation. Hungarians accepted many nation into their homeland, Germans, slavs, Romanians, nomadic turk tribes. This has proven to be their fate.
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  • @Szabolcs
    I am not biased more than you are. What is biased in the fact that the territory north of the Danube was the organic part of Hungary from 896 to 1918, the Hungarian was the first nation to establish a civilized state there and the Hungarian was the largest enthnic group there. It was unrighteously taken from Hungary and given to the Serbians. It was never in Serbian hands before, they have absolutely no right for that area. During the WWII part of the territory was reoccupied by Hungarian forces, the true owners and resistance had to be dealt with. I dont think that I would have to apologize for punching a gipsy that stole my bike and refuses to return it! Serbians have been agressively changing the ethnic composition of the territory (colonizing it if you prefer that word), and denying the basic rights to use their language from native Hungarians in order to asimilate them. Just like Ukranians do it with Russians and also Hungarians. And please nobody come with ancient panslavic, World ruling bullshit, because it is pathetic.

    “Serbians have been aggressively changing the ethnic composition”. Have the Serbs burned down churches, Hungarian houses, killed Hungarians and harvested their organs? I think not…

    I agree the treaty of Trianon was very unfair to Hungary, but Hungary lost the war, and this was what the great powers imposed upon Hungary.

    Serbia lost the war with NATO. Just like Hungary in 1920, Serbia in 1999 had to accept the treaty that great powers imposed: UN 1244. UN1244 specifically states that Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia.

    Then in 2008, the US unilaterally violated UN1244 by recognising Kosovo as an independent state, thereby throwing the international order into limbo and undermining the territorial integrity of Serbia.

    This was typical bully behaviour. The only reason there was so little outrage in the West was because the Serbs had been demonised for long, so nobody really cared. But if the US can do this to the Serbia, it means they can do it to every and any country .

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    • Replies: @Szabolcs
    Well, for Serbians, stealing a territory is Ok, but loosing a territory hurts badly. You have lost Kosovo for ever. A great power imposed this on you so you had better accept it. And anyway, you are greatly outnumbered by Albanians in Kosovo, so unless you commit some very nasty genocide, and you are very good at it, you will never get it back. And this is YOUR own logic I applied on YOU. But you can alternatively move your people out of Voivodina back to Kosovo, and give us back our land in exchange for yours.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Tom57
    Exactly. You nailed it. Vladimir would be comical if people like him weren´t that serious. And they are all the same. You can hear the same kind of trash from all the Nationalists in Eastern Europe. Word for word just with other locations and other symbols. Always the fount of civilisation, the poor oppressed robbed of their civilisation and so on and so forth ad nauseum. But nowhere worse than the Balkans. But it is also true that the silent majority is sick of those people. They just can´t be bothered or else don´t dare to speak up. At least that is my experience travelling around Bosnia.
    If somebody came in and shot the worst bigots everybody would be relieved. People like Vladimir weren´t allowed their nonsense in the time of Tito. It would have been straight to jail. Ok, no freedom of expression and no democracy. In the 80s the rot sat in and people like him were allowed to peddle their nonsense.
    Unfortunately Yugoslavia relied on an ideology. What you need is the naked self interest of an outside force. That is much more sustainable.
    Sorry to be so cynical but if you have ever been there you would agree. The Mosque in Banja Luka (one of the most beautiful buildings in the world) was blown up by the likes of Vladimir. And treasures of mediaval Orthodox art was destroyed by the Kosovo Albanians. Not to speak of the hundreds of thousands who had to flee or who were killed. To the wall with those fanatics!!!

    Well….for a couple of reasons “troubles” in Balkans have been a pet project of mine for quite some time. Whoever is really interested in the topic can easy find related material and even communicate with people on the ground. Not many Westerners do that for, I believe, peculiar reasons.

    Vladimir would be comical if people like him weren´t that serious. And they are all the same. You can hear the same kind of trash from all the Nationalists in Eastern Europe. Word for word just with other locations and other symbols. Always the fount of civilisation, the poor oppressed robbed of their civilisation and so on and so forth ad nauseum. But nowhere worse than the Balkans.

    Agree.
    The problem is, such types had an opportunity, and they have realized it, twice so far over there, in span of 3 generations. That definitely made a lot of difference on the ground as we speak.
    It’s one thing saying all that in a pub. It’s quite another methodically “ethnically cleansing” complete regions. The euphemism doesn’t even begin to describe how that really looks like on the ground.

    But it is also true that the silent majority is sick of those people. They just can´t be bothered or else don´t dare to speak up. At least that is my experience travelling around Bosnia.

    I believe you are wrong.
    Now….that’s a big topic and probably not for a site like this, but, that’s not so simple and optimistic as you say, IMHO.
    The primary motive last time for the majority wasn’t hate against OTHER. Yes, as you’ve noticed, you always have “true believers” who do hate and are capable of anything. But…..the primary motive was, actually, “I have no choice but to join”. And, well, majority of peoples over there don’t, for historical reasons, really say in public what they think/feel in private. You, as an “outsider” were treated as, well, outsider from West. To be insider isn’t enough to be of the same religion/ethnicity/nation. You have to be from the same region, speak with the same accent too. A Catholic Croat from Istria is an outsider, for example, for a Catholic Croat from Herzegovina. The same principle applies everywhere over there.

    If somebody came in and shot the worst bigots everybody would be relieved. People like Vladimir weren´t allowed their nonsense in the time of Tito. It would have been straight to jail. Ok, no freedom of expression and no democracy.

    I see.
    Well, not quite. Dangerously simplistic, even.
    Defining a bigot there is not an easy exercise.
    For example, both Mladic and Praljak could be defined as bigots. But, compared to leadership types in West, don’t they have some, actually, high qualities? Take a look at their resumes/life history.
    As for jail, true. But, both Mladic and Praljak were successful people during Tito’s regime. Didn’t go to jail then. Then, when the environment changed, bang, they, somehow, became, by Western standards bigots, monsters, genocidal maniacs etc.
    Trying to understand that fast and easy is wrong and shall create problems again.
    You mentioned “no freedom of expression and no democracy”. Well, what then? Constant dictatorships for those peoples there? Why? That, then, means that something is wrong with them? By whose standards? Sounds racist….haha…
    The problems are much more deeper and complicated. Hence, the solutions.

    In the 80s the rot sat in and people like him were allowed to peddle their nonsense.

    The rot started immediately after WW2, I believe. But, again, we could start debating the issue for years and came up with nothing of substance. One can see it everywhere where people …”debate”…history.
    The core problem, IMHO, is actually very simple.
    This problem requires everyone to sit and openly and honestly talk about the issue.
    Now…tell me…..where in the world you can see that? Do, in West, as we speak, opposing views are debated/resolved in such a way? Westerners can’t do that for a simple thing as police violence, for example. Wanting Balkans people to do the same for several hundreds of years of bloody history sounds….patronizing and hypocritical, to say the least.
    Tito’s regime didn’t handle nationalism well, obviously.
    Now, we have West handling the same thing. You believe it’s better? I don’t.
    My point is, it’s not easy even if one wants to resolve it. The tragedy is, the most of people over thre did believe that “International Community” will help them to, finally, resolve all that. It didn’t.

    What you need is the naked self interest of an outside force. That is much more sustainable.

    Perhaps. But ,as soon it weakens, the unresolved suppressed problem erupts again.

    To the wall with those fanatics!!!

    Perhaps. That’s what Tito did at the end of the WW 2. Didn’t work, obviously.
    The fanatics, as you call them, didn’t, at the time, materialize out of thin air. They turned up from ordinary people when the iron grip of Communist rule relaxed.
    The environment breeds them. That environment needs understanding and then, hopefully, resolving.
    I don’t see how, at least not in my lifetime.

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    • Replies: @peterAUS
    I (re) read my post, and, naturally, felt I left some points out.
    That happens when one wants to ...."solve"....this problem in a comment on a Website.

    First of all, who is saying that the "troubles" in 90's were, fundamentally, morally wrong?

    Let's see that from a Croatian perspective, for example, first:
    They wanted an independent, sovereign state of their own. It's that simple.
    And they got it. Simple again.
    Similar to a lot of states/countries that popped up after the fall of Communism.
    Belorussia for, I guess, the least controversial example.
    Have to mention Estonia too....

    So, fundamentally, the "troubles" weren't bad/wrong for Croats.
    Of course, even among Croats you can find endless debates of "could've/should've", but, on a most fundamental level they got that state they wanted. When I say "they" I mean a majority of Croats.
    Now, about several zillions Serbs/Croats could jump at my throat with encyclopedia of rebuttals/rejections/blah blah, of course. Especially Serbs.

    Similar to Albanians in Yugoslavia. They wanted independence. They got it.
    Slovenians. Same.

    So, at least 3 ethnic groups/peoples there actually got what they wanted. That it required "blood and tears" is obvious, so what? Getting an independent state/entity usually demands that.
    Americans (this is their site after all) could try to remind us here again how they got the USA?

    Now, one can start arguing "is it worth going through all that/doing all that" to get that state/country.
    A good question.
    Is it? Why not/why yes?
    And, before majority here starts getting too cocky, well, again, how did USA get into existence?
    Was it worth?
    Yeah............

    Did Croats, for example, get exactly what they wanted is totally another question.
    Probably around 90 % of them didn't, but that's another matter.
    Like, are Americans happy with what's going on with them/their country recently.

    So, when some people say "all nationalism bad/all nationalists bad" etc. well.....the independent state of Croatia is a reality now. Part of West, majority of Croats wanted. EU, NATO, the works.
    So, Croat nationalists, fundamentally, delivered what the majority of their kin/nation/ethnic group wanted.
    For majority of Croats their nationalism was/is good. Or Slovenes.

    That Serbs are sort of on the opposite side of that success is another matter altogether.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @L.K
    "We do not know much about Albanian people except that their origin is Indian State of Punjab"

    And this is a complete LIE.

    I'm not Albanian but you are a LIAR.

    Give me some proof except the one that is totally idiotic that Albanians are white Europeans,

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    • Replies: @Rurik
    lightly perusing this thread

    totally idiotic that Albanians are white Europeans,
     
    whenever someone asks me who is white, I always respond that such things have been decided for us in the West

    basically it's anyone who it is legal to discriminate against in ZUSA (and elsewhere in the Zio-West), and that would definitely include Albanians, (like the Belushi brothers for instance), who are definitely white based on the legal description used to discriminate against all white men

    http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/81/f2/1b/81f21b4c434ac1ece02b789fd655ac7b.jpg

    if you were born in the ZUSA, then you can cry that you're Albanian all day long, and they'd still tell you to take your white arse to the back of the line.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @EliteCommInc.
    hmmmmm . . .


    My problem here is that even the Russians had chastised the Serbians for their genocide. That was the turning point in my view. The evidence was overwhelming that genocide was talking lace. And I have read the two state agreements and much of the teeth grinding by Dr. Chomsky.


    There are few instances in which I support military intervention -- genocide is one of them.

    Sorry Elite, but that’s not true:

    Russians VETOED the Srebrenica genocide resolution. Churkin said that the Western version of events was a “distortion” where the blame is “basically placed on one people”. China abstained saying the claim of genocide was “politically motivated”

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bosnia-srebrenica-un/russia-blocks-u-n-condemnation-of-srebrenica-as-a-genocide-idUSKCN0PI1W620150708

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    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    That's flipping the card. What Russia objected to was any press that the Serbs alone were responsible for genocide. The record is clear that even they called the Serbs behavior a bridge too far and pressed them to cease that activity.


    Now we could argue which side was worse. And i would fall to the side of the Serbs as defacto the powers that be with greater means of power to exercise force, hence the NATO intervention.


    But it would be disingenuous to claim that the UN vote by Russia exonerated Serbs from claims of genocide.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @AP

    Serbians have been agressively changing the ethnic composition of the territory (colonizing it if you prefer that word), and denying the basic rights to use their language from native Hungarians in order to asimilate them. Just like Ukranians do it with Russians and also Hungarians
     
    The Ukrainian policy that Hungary objects to is changing Hungarian high schools to being half in the Hungarian language and half in the Ukrainian language, rather than only having 1-3 hours of Ukrainian per week. The reason for this "outrageous" reform is that Hungarian kids leaving those schools couldn't speak non-Hungarian and couldn't pass university entrance exams - they were basically forced either stay in their Hungarian-speaking villages or to move to Hungary.

    So now Hungarian kids will be learning Ukrainian and using it in high school, while still also having classes in Hungarian. Meanwhile Hungarian-only grammar schools will be kept the way they are. These quite-reasonable reforms were declared acceptable by the Venice Commission.

    When the specific nature of the reforms were explained to the Romanians, the Romania backed off its opposition. Hungary has not. Hungary is playing a game here. For whom?

    The Ukranian policy Hungary objects to makes it compulsory for Hungarian kids to learn in Ukranian language above the fourth grade in primary school, in secondary shool and at the university. Every nation must have the right to learn on its mother tongue. And anyway, noone on Earth wants to learn Ukranian. Moreover noone on Earth wants to live in Ukraine. Hungarians have to live in that country because their homeland was torn out of Hungary, and given to Czechoslovakia, than to the Soviet Union and after the CCCP crumbled, they became part of Ukraine. The territory where they live is on the western side of the Carpathian Mountains, and belonged to Hungary from 895 to 1918. The 80 percent of the population is NOT Ukranian but rusyn, and they are not even recognized by Ukraine as a nation. That is because if they recognized them, they could become independent, and that is what they want. Their best chance would be to return to Hungary as an autonomous region, and become part of the EU, which they have absolutely zero chance to achieve as part of Ukraine. But they dont dare to speak out, with Ukrainian chauvinist military groups marching on their streets. Hungary should demand self determination for that region. And as for the ridiculous Venice Commission, they are in no position to tell any national group how they should live their lives. They are just singing from the music sheet of the zionists who rule Ukraine in coalition with the Ukrainian fascists.

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    • Replies: @AP

    The Ukranian policy Hungary objects to makes it compulsory for Hungarian kids to learn in Ukranian language above the fourth grade in primary school, in secondary shool and at the university.
     
    Sure. But not only in Ukrainian. They will also have Hungarian-language classes all through high school. Previously it was only in Hungarian (or rather, 1-3 hours of Ukrainian per week). Students would graduate high school and be unable to go to university.

    And anyway, noone on Earth wants to learn Ukranian.
     
    I'm sure nobody outside Hungary cares to learn Hungarian. Should minorities within Hungary never learn the Hungarian language?

    The territory where they live is on the western side of the Carpathian Mountains, and belonged to Hungary from 895 to 1918.
     
    And Hungary belonged to Turkey and Austria for some times, so? Magyars originally came from Asia, did they not?

    The 80 percent of the population is NOT Ukranian but rusyn, and they are not even recognized by Ukraine as a nation.
     
    Most of them do not recognize themselves as a separate nation either. About 1% of those people claim to be Rusyns and not Ukrainians.

    That is because if they recognized them, they could become independent, and that is what they want.
     
    LOL, that must be why they vote for Ukrainian nationalists.

    But they dont dare to speak out, with Ukrainian chauvinist military groups marching on their streets.
     
    That's one interpretation. Are Fidesz and Jobbik similarly preventing the people of Hungary from declaring themselves a gypsy republic, or some such nonsense?
    , @RadicalCenter
    If the Rusyn become part of the EU, they will ultimately be forced to accept invasion by Muslims and Africans. That will endanger their physical safety, destroy their common culture, impoverish them further, and End their identity and existence as a nation.

    Now if Hungary is wise enough to leave the EU, then perhaps Hungary could be an attractive option for the Rusyn to escape from the collapsing and dying Ukraine.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • hmmmmm . . .

    My problem here is that even the Russians had chastised the Serbians for their genocide. That was the turning point in my view. The evidence was overwhelming that genocide was talking lace. And I have read the two state agreements and much of the teeth grinding by Dr. Chomsky.

    There are few instances in which I support military intervention — genocide is one of them.

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    • Replies: @SrGrl
    Sorry Elite, but that's not true:

    Russians VETOED the Srebrenica genocide resolution. Churkin said that the Western version of events was a "distortion" where the blame is "basically placed on one people". China abstained saying the claim of genocide was "politically motivated"

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bosnia-srebrenica-un/russia-blocks-u-n-condemnation-of-srebrenica-as-a-genocide-idUSKCN0PI1W620150708
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ilyana_Rozumova
    You are pretty good, you are putting up a good fight. And that is why I do like you. You are not a Gypsy because you do not know anything about Gypsies.
    You claim that Albanians are white Europeans. What it really means.
    There are all kind of nationalities in Europe like Slavs Germans....etc. But I never heard that in Europe is such a nationality as White Europeans.

    Now let me teach you a little bit.
    All Albania is a plateau. That means elevated flatland. That means that people who had settled there,
    considered this fact for defensive purposes.
    Albanians do not call themselves Gypsies, they call themselves Upre Romans. Also most of the educated Gypsies call themselves Upre Romans.
    Albania is very poor country practically no natural resources and field are not very fertile.
    Except meadows for grazing animals, there is not much else there. We do not know much about Albanian people except that their origin is Indian State of Punjab
    There are some indication that these people settled there when Rome was still power in Europe,
    Through the centuries many people came from Punjab and also from other parts of India.
    Most of these people lived in horse drown carriages for many years before they settled.

    “We do not know much about Albanian people except that their origin is Indian State of Punjab”

    And this is a complete LIE.

    I’m not Albanian but you are a LIAR.

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    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Give me some proof except the one that is totally idiotic that Albanians are white Europeans,
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Whoriskey
    I believe that dictum belongs to Simon de Montfort. Say what you like about him - he was effective in suppressing the Albigensian heresy

    Arnaud Amalric. I believe Montfort, Earl of Leicester, led the rebellion against Henry III.

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  • @peterAUS
    An good post.

    Shows....something....

    Now, imagine (sic) having the same attitude coming from all sides there and, well....there you go.

    Thanks for an educational experience. I mean it.
    Not exactly for the same reason you posted here, but helps a lot, anyway.

    That's the breeding ground for "the type".
    Give him 3 weeks basic training, give him a gun/ammo, get him into a platoon of, say, 30-40 similar types, put those platoons into something of a unit of around 200 men, support them with a bit of artillery/tanks/logistics and.........voila.............here we go again.
    Muskets->Mausers->Schmeissers->AK-47s....I guess the next time it will be AN-94s/HK416s.
    Or clubs and stones.

    Exactly. You nailed it. Vladimir would be comical if people like him weren´t that serious. And they are all the same. You can hear the same kind of trash from all the Nationalists in Eastern Europe. Word for word just with other locations and other symbols. Always the fount of civilisation, the poor oppressed robbed of their civilisation and so on and so forth ad nauseum. But nowhere worse than the Balkans. But it is also true that the silent majority is sick of those people. They just can´t be bothered or else don´t dare to speak up. At least that is my experience travelling around Bosnia.
    If somebody came in and shot the worst bigots everybody would be relieved. People like Vladimir weren´t allowed their nonsense in the time of Tito. It would have been straight to jail. Ok, no freedom of expression and no democracy. In the 80s the rot sat in and people like him were allowed to peddle their nonsense.
    Unfortunately Yugoslavia relied on an ideology. What you need is the naked self interest of an outside force. That is much more sustainable.
    Sorry to be so cynical but if you have ever been there you would agree. The Mosque in Banja Luka (one of the most beautiful buildings in the world) was blown up by the likes of Vladimir. And treasures of mediaval Orthodox art was destroyed by the Kosovo Albanians. Not to speak of the hundreds of thousands who had to flee or who were killed. To the wall with those fanatics!!!

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    • Agree: Philip Owen
    • Replies: @peterAUS
    Well….for a couple of reasons “troubles” in Balkans have been a pet project of mine for quite some time. Whoever is really interested in the topic can easy find related material and even communicate with people on the ground. Not many Westerners do that for, I believe, peculiar reasons.

    Vladimir would be comical if people like him weren´t that serious. And they are all the same. You can hear the same kind of trash from all the Nationalists in Eastern Europe. Word for word just with other locations and other symbols. Always the fount of civilisation, the poor oppressed robbed of their civilisation and so on and so forth ad nauseum. But nowhere worse than the Balkans.
     
    Agree.
    The problem is, such types had an opportunity, and they have realized it, twice so far over there, in span of 3 generations. That definitely made a lot of difference on the ground as we speak.
    It’s one thing saying all that in a pub. It’s quite another methodically “ethnically cleansing” complete regions. The euphemism doesn’t even begin to describe how that really looks like on the ground.

    But it is also true that the silent majority is sick of those people. They just can´t be bothered or else don´t dare to speak up. At least that is my experience travelling around Bosnia.
     
    I believe you are wrong.
    Now….that’s a big topic and probably not for a site like this, but, that’s not so simple and optimistic as you say, IMHO.
    The primary motive last time for the majority wasn’t hate against OTHER. Yes, as you’ve noticed, you always have “true believers” who do hate and are capable of anything. But…..the primary motive was, actually, “I have no choice but to join”. And, well, majority of peoples over there don’t, for historical reasons, really say in public what they think/feel in private. You, as an “outsider” were treated as, well, outsider from West. To be insider isn’t enough to be of the same religion/ethnicity/nation. You have to be from the same region, speak with the same accent too. A Catholic Croat from Istria is an outsider, for example, for a Catholic Croat from Herzegovina. The same principle applies everywhere over there.

    If somebody came in and shot the worst bigots everybody would be relieved. People like Vladimir weren´t allowed their nonsense in the time of Tito. It would have been straight to jail. Ok, no freedom of expression and no democracy.
     
    I see.
    Well, not quite. Dangerously simplistic, even.
    Defining a bigot there is not an easy exercise.
    For example, both Mladic and Praljak could be defined as bigots. But, compared to leadership types in West, don’t they have some, actually, high qualities? Take a look at their resumes/life history.
    As for jail, true. But, both Mladic and Praljak were successful people during Tito’s regime. Didn’t go to jail then. Then, when the environment changed, bang, they, somehow, became, by Western standards bigots, monsters, genocidal maniacs etc.
    Trying to understand that fast and easy is wrong and shall create problems again.
    You mentioned “no freedom of expression and no democracy”. Well, what then? Constant dictatorships for those peoples there? Why? That, then, means that something is wrong with them? By whose standards? Sounds racist....haha...
    The problems are much more deeper and complicated. Hence, the solutions.

    In the 80s the rot sat in and people like him were allowed to peddle their nonsense.
     
    The rot started immediately after WW2, I believe. But, again, we could start debating the issue for years and came up with nothing of substance. One can see it everywhere where people …”debate”…history.
    The core problem, IMHO, is actually very simple.
    This problem requires everyone to sit and openly and honestly talk about the issue.
    Now…tell me…..where in the world you can see that? Do, in West, as we speak, opposing views are debated/resolved in such a way? Westerners can’t do that for a simple thing as police violence, for example. Wanting Balkans people to do the same for several hundreds of years of bloody history sounds….patronizing and hypocritical, to say the least.
    Tito’s regime didn’t handle nationalism well, obviously.
    Now, we have West handling the same thing. You believe it’s better? I don’t.
    My point is, it’s not easy even if one wants to resolve it. The tragedy is, the most of people over thre did believe that “International Community” will help them to, finally, resolve all that. It didn’t.

    What you need is the naked self interest of an outside force. That is much more sustainable.
     
    Perhaps. But ,as soon it weakens, the unresolved suppressed problem erupts again.

    To the wall with those fanatics!!!
     
    Perhaps. That’s what Tito did at the end of the WW 2. Didn’t work, obviously.
    The fanatics, as you call them, didn’t, at the time, materialize out of thin air. They turned up from ordinary people when the iron grip of Communist rule relaxed.
    The environment breeds them. That environment needs understanding and then, hopefully, resolving.
    I don’t see how, at least not in my lifetime.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Serbians have been agressively changing the ethnic composition of the territory (colonizing it if you prefer that word), and denying the basic rights to use their language from native Hungarians in order to asimilate them. Just like Ukranians do it with Russians and also Hungarians

    The Ukrainian policy that Hungary objects to is changing Hungarian high schools to being half in the Hungarian language and half in the Ukrainian language, rather than only having 1-3 hours of Ukrainian per week. The reason for this “outrageous” reform is that Hungarian kids leaving those schools couldn’t speak non-Hungarian and couldn’t pass university entrance exams – they were basically forced either stay in their Hungarian-speaking villages or to move to Hungary.

    So now Hungarian kids will be learning Ukrainian and using it in high school, while still also having classes in Hungarian. Meanwhile Hungarian-only grammar schools will be kept the way they are. These quite-reasonable reforms were declared acceptable by the Venice Commission.

    When the specific nature of the reforms were explained to the Romanians, the Romania backed off its opposition. Hungary has not. Hungary is playing a game here. For whom?

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    • Replies: @Szabolcs
    The Ukranian policy Hungary objects to makes it compulsory for Hungarian kids to learn in Ukranian language above the fourth grade in primary school, in secondary shool and at the university. Every nation must have the right to learn on its mother tongue. And anyway, noone on Earth wants to learn Ukranian. Moreover noone on Earth wants to live in Ukraine. Hungarians have to live in that country because their homeland was torn out of Hungary, and given to Czechoslovakia, than to the Soviet Union and after the CCCP crumbled, they became part of Ukraine. The territory where they live is on the western side of the Carpathian Mountains, and belonged to Hungary from 895 to 1918. The 80 percent of the population is NOT Ukranian but rusyn, and they are not even recognized by Ukraine as a nation. That is because if they recognized them, they could become independent, and that is what they want. Their best chance would be to return to Hungary as an autonomous region, and become part of the EU, which they have absolutely zero chance to achieve as part of Ukraine. But they dont dare to speak out, with Ukrainian chauvinist military groups marching on their streets. Hungary should demand self determination for that region. And as for the ridiculous Venice Commission, they are in no position to tell any national group how they should live their lives. They are just singing from the music sheet of the zionists who rule Ukraine in coalition with the Ukrainian fascists.
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  • @Antiwar7
    Of course there were Serbian victims, too. Not even counting WW I, we have this from WW II:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians_in_Serbia#Settlement
    "This region was annexed by Hungary, and it was colonized by new Hungarian settlers, at which time number of Hungarians in the area grew considerably, while in the same time many Serbs were expelled from Bačka. The brutal conduct of the Axis Hungarian occupying forces, including the Hungarian army and Royal Hungarian Gendarmes, has polarized both Hungarian and Serb communities. Under the Axis Hungarian authority, 19,573 people were killed in Bačka, of which the majority of victims were of Serb, Jewish and Romani origin."

    You are a typical 2), as in:
    http://www.unz.com/tsaker/kosovo-will-be-liberated/#comment-2112242

    I am not biased more than you are. What is biased in the fact that the territory north of the Danube was the organic part of Hungary from 896 to 1918, the Hungarian was the first nation to establish a civilized state there and the Hungarian was the largest enthnic group there. It was unrighteously taken from Hungary and given to the Serbians. It was never in Serbian hands before, they have absolutely no right for that area. During the WWII part of the territory was reoccupied by Hungarian forces, the true owners and resistance had to be dealt with. I dont think that I would have to apologize for punching a gipsy that stole my bike and refuses to return it! Serbians have been agressively changing the ethnic composition of the territory (colonizing it if you prefer that word), and denying the basic rights to use their language from native Hungarians in order to asimilate them. Just like Ukranians do it with Russians and also Hungarians. And please nobody come with ancient panslavic, World ruling bullshit, because it is pathetic.

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    • Replies: @SrGrl
    "Serbians have been aggressively changing the ethnic composition". Have the Serbs burned down churches, Hungarian houses, killed Hungarians and harvested their organs? I think not...

    I agree the treaty of Trianon was very unfair to Hungary, but Hungary lost the war, and this was what the great powers imposed upon Hungary.

    Serbia lost the war with NATO. Just like Hungary in 1920, Serbia in 1999 had to accept the treaty that great powers imposed: UN 1244. UN1244 specifically states that Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia.

    Then in 2008, the US unilaterally violated UN1244 by recognising Kosovo as an independent state, thereby throwing the international order into limbo and undermining the territorial integrity of Serbia.

    This was typical bully behaviour. The only reason there was so little outrage in the West was because the Serbs had been demonised for long, so nobody really cared. But if the US can do this to the Serbia, it means they can do it to every and any country .
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  • @geokat62

    And when finally international law was overtly and viciously violated when the “western democracies” used their airpower to support the terrorists and thugs of the KLA, not a single lawyer or politician had the brains to realize that what died the day the first bomb fell on Serbia was the entire international order created after WWII.
     
    Au contraire! You mustn't be aware of the Balkan Action Committee (BAC)... neither was I until I read Prof. Stephen Sniegoski's The Transparent Cabal. In it, the good professor brings to light the existence of the BAC and the composition of its members:

    Members of the interventionist Balkan Action Committee, which advocated NATO ground troops for Kosovo, included such prominent neoconservative mainstays as Richard Perle, Max M. Kampelman, Morton Abramowitz, and Paul Wolfowitz. Other neoconservative proponents of a tougher war included Eliot Cohen, Elliott Abrams, John Bolton, Bill Kristol, Robert Kagan, and Norman Podhoretz.
     
    While it is rather surprising to find our favourite neoconservatives behind an organization pushing for war against Serbia, Prof. Sniegoski explains their motivation:

    The attack on Serbia, ostensibly for humanitarian reasons, provided the intellectual groundwork for the attack on Iraq, the neocons’ fundamental target, since it set the precedent of violating international law’s prohibition against initiating offensive wars.
     
    As far as this statement by the Saker is concerned:

    Yes, all the anti-Muslim GWOT-wars after 9/11 have their methodological roots in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. There will come a day when Muslims will come to understand that fact and they will then reevaluate what they thought they knew about the wars in Bosnia and Kosovo.
     
    I would tend to agree to the extant people familiarize themselves with the facts put forth by Prof. Sniegoski regarding the BAC, including its objectives and its members.

    Thanks geo, I have been trying to explain the same for years now. What happened to Yugoslavia would not have happened without the ZioWahhabis, although the stupid local hates, exhibited so well in the trollish bull of so many comments here, helped the war along too much. In other words, the war in Yugoslavia would not have happened without ZioWahhabis playing on ethnic and religious conflict, but the war would have still failed to develop without the local hates.

    Another thing that I have been pointing out since I can remember, that Serbia is a dress-rehearsal for the big game (as in hunting) – Russia is now coming through. The same as when the Germanic Nazis started their Drang nach Osten for Lebensraum and resources, all the anti-Serbian and anti-Russian nationalities that are commenting here eagerly joined them: Croatians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Bosnian Muslims, Galicians and so on. It is the same now when the ZioWahhabis are on the march, all the same nationalities are on the march together with the new Masters of the World.

    I can only hope that if we win this time again, we will be much less forgiving towards those who customarily become victims once they lose the wars they eagerly participate in.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    all the anti-Serbian and anti-Russian nationalities that are commenting here eagerly joined them: Croatians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Bosnian Muslims, Galicians and so on. It is the same now when the ZioWahhabis are on the march, all the same nationalities are on the march together with the new Masters of the World....
     
    ...who were (and often are) the blood enemies of the Nazis

    whenever I try to understand and reconcile the endemic hatreds in that part of the world, and the alliances between the Nazis and Bolsheviks and Zionists and nationalists and Christians (both Catholic and Orthodox) and Muslims and Jews of yesterday and today, my head spins


    The Ustaše recognized both Roman Catholicism and Islam as the national religions of the Croatian people but initially rejected Orthodox Christianity as being incompatible with their objectives.[21] Although the Ustaše emphasized religious themes, it stressed that duty to the nation took precedence over religious custom.[36] In power, the Ustaše banned the use of the term "Serbian Orthodox faith", requiring "Greek-Eastern faith" in its place.[30] The Ustaše forcefully converted many Orthodox to Catholicism, murdered and expelled 85% of Orthodox priests[37], plundered and burnt many Orthodox Christian churches.[37] The Ustaše also persecuted Old Catholics who did not recognize papal infallibility.[30] The Ustaše altered their stance towards the Orthodox faith in August 1941 when the NDH allowed those Orthodox Serbs who held no political association with Serbia to be permitted to attain Croatian citizenship and be declared Aryans.[citation needed] On 2 July 1942 the Croatian Orthodox Church was founded, as a further means to destroy the Serbian Orthodox Church, but this new Church gained very few followers.[38]

    While initial focus was against Serbs, as the Ustase grew closer to the Nazis they adopted antisemitism.[39] In 1936, in “The Croat Question”, Ante Pavelić placed Jews third among “the Enemies of the Croats” (after Serbs and Freemasons, but before Communists): writing:


    ″Today, practically all finance and nearly all commerce in Croatia is in Jewish hands. This became possible only through the support of the state, which thereby seeks, on one hand, to strengthen the pro-Serbian Jews, and on the other, to weaken Croat national strength. The Jews celebrated the establishment of the so-called Yugoslav state with great joy, because a national Croatia could never be as useful to them as a multi-national Yugoslavia; for in national chaos lies the power of the Jews... In fact, as the Jews had foreseen, Yugoslavia became, in consequence of the corruption of official life in Serbia, a true Eldorado of Jewry.”[40]

    Once in power, the Ustaše immediately introduced a series of Nazi-style Racial Laws, sent most Jews to Ustaše and Nazi concentration camps - including the notorious, Ustaše-run, Jasenovac - where all told nearly, 32.000, or 80% of the Jews in the Independent State of Croatia, were exterminated.[41]
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e

    there's a lot more convoluted tribal, religions, nationalistic witches' brew there to discombobulate the mind

    and now it's the Zio-West, for whom the Serbs fought, who today are prosecuting Serbian nationalists as war criminals in their Zio-kangaroo court.

    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44928000/jpg/_44928801_-6.jpg
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  • @Antiwar7
    The "Yugoslav" idea did not start with Serbs. It was primarily Croat intellectuals at first:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_of_Yugoslavia#Origins_of_the_idea

    That said, I agree it was a mistake to form it. The cultural backgrounds and aspirations of its various inhabitants were too different.

    You would like to know that the ‘Panslavism’, decried as a ‘Russian idea’ and the proof of the ‘Russian imperialism’ against all civilized world was duty bound to fight against, was also a Croat invention:

    “The first pan-Slavists were the 16th-century Croatian writer Vinko Pribojević and the 17th-century Aleksandar Komulović, Bartol Kašić, Gundulić and Croatian Catholic missionary Juraj Križanić*. Some of the earliest manifestations of Pan-Slavic thought within the Habsburg Monarchy have been attributed to Adam Franz Kollár and Pavel Jozef Šafárik”.

    *Juraj Križanić (c. 1618 – 12 September 1683), also known as Yuriy Krizhanich or Iurii Krizhanich (Russian: Крижанич, Юрий), was a Croatian Catholic missionary who is often regarded as the earliest recorded pan-Slavist… While Križanić had a strong desire to travel to Moscow with the ambitious goal of uniting the Roman Catholic and Russian Orthodox churches, he was assigned missionary duties in Zagreb, where he was a teacher at the Zagreb Theological Seminary as well as a priest in several neighboring towns…
    [Eventually] Križanić managed to secure permission from the papacy for a brief visit to Moscow from 25 October to 19 December 1647 as part of a Polish embassy. However, he was not able to secure permission for a prolonged stay until 1658 (it was retracted shortly after being issued, a fact that Križanić simply ignored) and he did not arrive in Moscow until 17 September 1659. Another author said that he pretended to be an Orthodox Serb. He was assigned the duty of translating Latin and Greek documents and preparing an improved Slavic grammar. However, he was exiled to Siberia on 20 January 1661. The reason for his exile is still unknown. Possible explanations put forward have included the fact that he was a Roman Catholic priest [as if lying that he was an Orthodox Serb had no bearing on the case], his criticism of Russian society and of the Greeks, with whom Patriarch Nikon was attempting reconciliation, and other political and social motives. Križanić postulated that he was exiled because of “some foolish thing” he had said to someone, and that whatever he had said had been mentioned to the authorities….
    He wanted to unite the Slavic nations under the Russian Tsar and unite Catholic and Orthodox [certainly under the Pope] against the German Protestants and Turkish Muslims.”

    You want to laugh or cry?

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    • Replies: @Antiwar7
    Fascinating. Thanks for the info.
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  • @anony-mouse
    Golly gosh I don't know what to think.

    Just a little more than a week ago:

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/11/eric-margolis/remembering-bosnias-horrors/

    is still used by the Empire to try to divide Orthodox Christians and Muslim to better rule over them all or, even better, to have them fight each other.

    It is still TABOO for professional analysts to CLEARLY state historical FACT that for the last 700-800 years the ROOT of all EVIL in the world hails from the Island north of today’s France and their western and other satraps.

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    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    And yet, 700 years later, people are safer from violent death, healthier, richer, longer lived, freer and more numerous in a more peaceful world than they have ever been. If that is evil, point out another hegemon with a better track record.
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