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    If by fascist, you mean “adherent of a movement determined to seize state power with the help of violence committed by a disciplined and armed auxiliary, if necessary, to reorder society to achieve extra-constitutional, self-defined racial or ethnic objectives embodied by a charismatic leader”, that is. Narendra Modi and his BJP party, in my reading,...
  • 2 questions to everyone here..

    1. If Hindus destroyed Vatican and built a temple there, would that be ok for Christians and liberals and left?

    2. If Hindus destroyed Macca and built a temple there, would that be ok for muslims and liberals and left?

    If this is not OK..how is it acceptable for any sane person to ask Hindus to let go of their vatican/Macca’s which were destroyed and mosques built to spite us. Can any sane human accept this travesty?

    Educate yourself about Islamic invasion of India. This is the biggest holocaust in human history. Millions of Hindus massacred. Thousands of temples destroyed. tens of thousands of woman forced into slavery and in end would kill themselves to avoid the fate.

    HAS THIS STOPPED?

    Go and check the percentage of Hindus in Pakistan & Bangladesh after independence and NOW. the numbers will shock you into silence.
    the continuous genocide of Hindus by Islam continues unabated with ample help of people like Peter Lee, who willfully lie about history.

    Muslims, left, liberals and western countries support Palestine. Why? Why does not the same reasons don’t hold true when it comes to hindus and our temples and property and land?

    For the author, his attraction to a woman is love and our love is attraction. This two faced liars of the world do disservice to history.

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  • @Art
    ‘Only the Jew are enjoying this.’

    London and Washington have always been the instigator behind Delhi’s aggresions against China.

    Yes - both Jew money controlled.

    My point is that Israel is the only country thriving in all this chaos - the only winner.

    The worst country, the least moral country, is gaining - how sad.

    Peace --- Art

    What about the MICC ??

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  • @Ivan
    Oz, you'd be better off ignoring the arse.

    Hey holy man,

    Keep that ass kissing pervert to yourself , moron.

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  • @Ivan
    India is a fascinating place and it is easy to be spellbound by the sheer diversity of the place. But keep a sharp lookout for your business interests, just in case.

    *India is a fascinating place and it is easy to be spellbound by the sheer diversity [sic] of the place*

    Hey holly man,
    Do you work in the Indian Propaganda Bureau ?

    Did you ask whether the Nagas wanted to join in this wonderful ‘diversity’ of India ?

    Do we look like Indians?’

    ‘The three million Nagas who inhabit the region are of Sino-Mongolian origin. Culturally, linguistically and physically they have more in common with the Karen people in Burma or even the Chinese than with the Indians. Indian troops – many from the notoriously undisciplined Assam Rifles – are taught that the Nagas are cannibals and head-hunters who must be dealt with accordingly. The result is pitiful. ‘

    https://newint.org/features/1994/06/05/keynote/

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  • […] If you want to punch a real fascist, go to India (Unz Review) […]

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ivan
    Wow you are in a dangerous business as a Lloyd's 'name' or related activity. I don't have the courage, even had I the money.

    Fortunately I asked a lot of questions and was dealing with an agent who had been a solicitor and was honest enough to tell me the truth. So, though some of my friends and acquaintances got stung for latge amounts and in some cases even lost old family estates which had been their collateral I escaped.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    Thank you. I've heard some bad stories though I've only lost much money as a result of not being close to the action in US investments! Fortunately an English friend gave a critical warning before I could make the fatal step of signing up with the shysters at Lloyds when they realised that there were long tail American liabilities, principally for asbestos related diseases, and decided to look for colonial rubes 12000 miles away as "names".

    Wow you are in a dangerous business as a Lloyd’s ‘name’ or related activity. I don’t have the courage, even had I the money.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Fortunately I asked a lot of questions and was dealing with an agent who had been a solicitor and was honest enough to tell me the truth. So, though some of my friends and acquaintances got stung for latge amounts and in some cases even lost old family estates which had been their collateral I escaped.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    Interesting to diagnose the causes of such uncouth and unintelligent trolling. Could it be malice towards the Chinese by way of a false flag operation? No East Asian of my acquaintance is so boorish or undignified. Questions to be answered include:
    1. Is it cognitive deficit or deliberate misdirection that “denk” claims to have found me on other sites when in fact I have never commented on other sites?
    2. Is it cognitive deficiency or mere careless bluster which has “denK’ claiming to have relegated me to the Commenters to Ignore category – if his reference to bozo file means anything – while appearing to believe, contrary to fact, that I would have known that, and also ignoring his own apparent censorship of my comments?!
    3. What does the childish “hehehehe” signify. Is it a sign that none of it is serious and that only time filling for the writer and timewasting for the reader is intended?

    As I cannot believe that any civilised Asian is the non-trolling author I am led to infer perhaps a male of Chinese and African parentage who is so resentful of and disturbed by his non acceptance in Chinese society that he takes his revenge by false flag trolling. Then again the “denk” moniker is vaguely suggestive of a Dutch connection and therefore perhaps part Indonesian Chinese family. Whichever, the implication in #120 that he is in the prime of life also implies that he Is unemployed, and most likely unemployable, which goes a long way to explain his demeaning exhibition of himself on UR.

    I hope that it is clear to “denk” that self-respect should result in the current persona disappearing for good.

    Oz, you’d be better off ignoring the arse.

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk
    Hey holy man,

    Keep that ass kissing pervert to yourself , moron.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @denk
    'Only the Jew are enjoying this.'

    London and Washington have always been the instigator behind Delhi's aggresions against China.

    ‘Only the Jew are enjoying this.’

    London and Washington have always been the instigator behind Delhi’s aggresions against China.

    Yes – both Jew money controlled.

    My point is that Israel is the only country thriving in all this chaos – the only winner.

    The worst country, the least moral country, is gaining – how sad.

    Peace — Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk
    What about the MICC ??
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @denk
    My apology.

    I thought you were a paid troll.
    May be you'r just a senile old fart.

    hehehehe

    So you are a liar as well as stupid. Clearly you did not think I was a paid troll.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    Interesting to diagnose the causes of such uncouth and unintelligent trolling. Could it be malice towards the Chinese by way of a false flag operation? No East Asian of my acquaintance is so boorish or undignified. Questions to be answered include:
    1. Is it cognitive deficit or deliberate misdirection that “denk” claims to have found me on other sites when in fact I have never commented on other sites?
    2. Is it cognitive deficiency or mere careless bluster which has “denK’ claiming to have relegated me to the Commenters to Ignore category – if his reference to bozo file means anything – while appearing to believe, contrary to fact, that I would have known that, and also ignoring his own apparent censorship of my comments?!
    3. What does the childish “hehehehe” signify. Is it a sign that none of it is serious and that only time filling for the writer and timewasting for the reader is intended?

    As I cannot believe that any civilised Asian is the non-trolling author I am led to infer perhaps a male of Chinese and African parentage who is so resentful of and disturbed by his non acceptance in Chinese society that he takes his revenge by false flag trolling. Then again the “denk” moniker is vaguely suggestive of a Dutch connection and therefore perhaps part Indonesian Chinese family. Whichever, the implication in #120 that he is in the prime of life also implies that he Is unemployed, and most likely unemployable, which goes a long way to explain his demeaning exhibition of himself on UR.

    I hope that it is clear to “denk” that self-respect should result in the current persona disappearing for good.

    My apology.

    I thought you were a paid troll.
    May be you’r just a senile old fart.

    hehehehe

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    So you are a liar as well as stupid. Clearly you did not think I was a paid troll.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art
    What a frigging mess! Things sure have gone to hell fast.

    It is not a good time to be a democrat (small "d”). In country after country voters internally have been turned into mini tribes that hate each other by the Jews. The world scene is the same.

    Europe is eyeball to eyeball with Russia. China is eyeball to eyeball with India. Sunni are eyeball to eyeball with Shia. The US is eyeball to eyeball with everyone. And no one is giving a millimeter.

    It is time for Trump to start talking peace – not belligerence.

    I am advocating talking peace and trade – not a big stick.

    Peace --- Art

    p.s. Only the Jew are enjoying this.

    p.s. More debt, more arms sales - all the chaos - how sweet it is for the Big Jews.

    ‘Only the Jew are enjoying this.’

    London and Washington have always been the instigator behind Delhi’s aggresions against China.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    ‘Only the Jew are enjoying this.’

    London and Washington have always been the instigator behind Delhi’s aggresions against China.

    Yes - both Jew money controlled.

    My point is that Israel is the only country thriving in all this chaos - the only winner.

    The worst country, the least moral country, is gaining - how sad.

    Peace --- Art

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @DB Cooper
    This goes to show the characters of the two peoples. Chinese are magnanimous even to people who have wronged them, including the Japanese and the Indian. Indian on the other hand are petty and vindictive.

    At least the murkkans apologised for their
    crime against Jp ,

    http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/28/world/la-fg-india-chinese-20130628

    To think that Delhi was the aggressor in the first place. !

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @denk
    'Instead of cheap sneers it would be more interesting for those who recognise and appreciate Ivan’s civility and attempt at fact based balance' [sic]

    wizard the senile old fart has been crapping all over the place, your antics was even discussed in some other sites.

    A kind reminder,
    you were banished to my 'bozo file' long ago, remember. ?

    I suggest you two can book a room to continue with your mumbo jumbo instead of wasting bandwidth here !

    hehehehe

    Interesting to diagnose the causes of such uncouth and unintelligent trolling. Could it be malice towards the Chinese by way of a false flag operation? No East Asian of my acquaintance is so boorish or undignified. Questions to be answered include:
    1. Is it cognitive deficit or deliberate misdirection that “denk” claims to have found me on other sites when in fact I have never commented on other sites?
    2. Is it cognitive deficiency or mere careless bluster which has “denK’ claiming to have relegated me to the Commenters to Ignore category – if his reference to bozo file means anything – while appearing to believe, contrary to fact, that I would have known that, and also ignoring his own apparent censorship of my comments?!
    3. What does the childish “hehehehe” signify. Is it a sign that none of it is serious and that only time filling for the writer and timewasting for the reader is intended?

    As I cannot believe that any civilised Asian is the non-trolling author I am led to infer perhaps a male of Chinese and African parentage who is so resentful of and disturbed by his non acceptance in Chinese society that he takes his revenge by false flag trolling. Then again the “denk” moniker is vaguely suggestive of a Dutch connection and therefore perhaps part Indonesian Chinese family. Whichever, the implication in #120 that he is in the prime of life also implies that he Is unemployed, and most likely unemployable, which goes a long way to explain his demeaning exhibition of himself on UR.

    I hope that it is clear to “denk” that self-respect should result in the current persona disappearing for good.

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk
    My apology.

    I thought you were a paid troll.
    May be you'r just a senile old fart.

    hehehehe
    , @Ivan
    Oz, you'd be better off ignoring the arse.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ivan
    India is a fascinating place and it is easy to be spellbound by the sheer diversity of the place. But keep a sharp lookout for your business interests, just in case.

    Thank you. I’ve heard some bad stories though I’ve only lost much money as a result of not being close to the action in US investments! Fortunately an English friend gave a critical warning before I could make the fatal step of signing up with the shysters at Lloyds when they realised that there were long tail American liabilities, principally for asbestos related diseases, and decided to look for colonial rubes 12000 miles away as “names”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivan
    Wow you are in a dangerous business as a Lloyd's 'name' or related activity. I don't have the courage, even had I the money.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    If only you had quoted the KJV you would have been on my shortlist for Bishop if Mysore (but you'd better brush up your Kannada in these populist times if you want the prize of such a climatically blessed See, though in the ancient Catholic/Anglican tradition theological studies would be optional) :-)

    India is a fascinating place and it is easy to be spellbound by the sheer diversity of the place. But keep a sharp lookout for your business interests, just in case.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Thank you. I've heard some bad stories though I've only lost much money as a result of not being close to the action in US investments! Fortunately an English friend gave a critical warning before I could make the fatal step of signing up with the shysters at Lloyds when they realised that there were long tail American liabilities, principally for asbestos related diseases, and decided to look for colonial rubes 12000 miles away as "names".
    , @denk
    *India is a fascinating place and it is easy to be spellbound by the sheer diversity [sic] of the place*

    Hey holly man,
    Do you work in the Indian Propaganda Bureau ?

    Did you ask whether the Nagas wanted to join in this wonderful 'diversity' of India ?

    'Do we look like Indians?’

    'The three million Nagas who inhabit the region are of Sino-Mongolian origin. Culturally, linguistically and physically they have more in common with the Karen people in Burma or even the Chinese than with the Indians. Indian troops – many from the notoriously undisciplined Assam Rifles – are taught that the Nagas are cannibals and head-hunters who must be dealt with accordingly. The result is pitiful. '

    https://newint.org/features/1994/06/05/keynote/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • What a frigging mess! Things sure have gone to hell fast.

    It is not a good time to be a democrat (small “d”). In country after country voters internally have been turned into mini tribes that hate each other by the Jews. The world scene is the same.

    Europe is eyeball to eyeball with Russia. China is eyeball to eyeball with India. Sunni are eyeball to eyeball with Shia. The US is eyeball to eyeball with everyone. And no one is giving a millimeter.

    It is time for Trump to start talking peace – not belligerence.

    I am advocating talking peace and trade – not a big stick.

    Peace — Art

    p.s. Only the Jew are enjoying this.

    p.s. More debt, more arms sales – all the chaos – how sweet it is for the Big Jews.

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk
    'Only the Jew are enjoying this.'

    London and Washington have always been the instigator behind Delhi's aggresions against China.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    Instead of cheap sneers it would be more interesting for those who recognise and appreciate Ivan's civility and attempt at fact based balance if you were e.g. to venture some scholarly evaluation of which elements from old civilisations (including IQ and its distribution if you like) are/have been most conducive to peaceful or at least effective transition to the post Malthusian prosperity, longevity and sustainability which is surely the highest hope outside the realms of ISIS and the Ayatollahs. Though I am one who would be a Dr Pangloss believing that millions of bright Chinese and Indians are going to invent a marvellous future I know that it is unlikely that I shall have enough years ahead of me to be sure that it comes to pass without human folly and adherence to primitive old ways of thought and irrational belief wreaking destruction.

    ‘Instead of cheap sneers it would be more interesting for those who recognise and appreciate Ivan’s civility and attempt at fact based balance’ [sic]

    wizard the senile old fart has been crapping all over the place, your antics was even discussed in some other sites.

    A kind reminder,
    you were banished to my ‘bozo file‘ long ago, remember. ?

    I suggest you two can book a room to continue with your mumbo jumbo instead of wasting bandwidth here !

    hehehehe

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Interesting to diagnose the causes of such uncouth and unintelligent trolling. Could it be malice towards the Chinese by way of a false flag operation? No East Asian of my acquaintance is so boorish or undignified. Questions to be answered include:
    1. Is it cognitive deficit or deliberate misdirection that “denk” claims to have found me on other sites when in fact I have never commented on other sites?
    2. Is it cognitive deficiency or mere careless bluster which has “denK’ claiming to have relegated me to the Commenters to Ignore category – if his reference to bozo file means anything – while appearing to believe, contrary to fact, that I would have known that, and also ignoring his own apparent censorship of my comments?!
    3. What does the childish “hehehehe” signify. Is it a sign that none of it is serious and that only time filling for the writer and timewasting for the reader is intended?

    As I cannot believe that any civilised Asian is the non-trolling author I am led to infer perhaps a male of Chinese and African parentage who is so resentful of and disturbed by his non acceptance in Chinese society that he takes his revenge by false flag trolling. Then again the “denk” moniker is vaguely suggestive of a Dutch connection and therefore perhaps part Indonesian Chinese family. Whichever, the implication in #120 that he is in the prime of life also implies that he Is unemployed, and most likely unemployable, which goes a long way to explain his demeaning exhibition of himself on UR.

    I hope that it is clear to “denk” that self-respect should result in the current persona disappearing for good.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @denk
    Ah, What about china ?

    I take it that this is your...
    Tacit admission of a fascist India, No ?

    hehehehe

    Instead of cheap sneers it would be more interesting for those who recognise and appreciate Ivan’s civility and attempt at fact based balance if you were e.g. to venture some scholarly evaluation of which elements from old civilisations (including IQ and its distribution if you like) are/have been most conducive to peaceful or at least effective transition to the post Malthusian prosperity, longevity and sustainability which is surely the highest hope outside the realms of ISIS and the Ayatollahs. Though I am one who would be a Dr Pangloss believing that millions of bright Chinese and Indians are going to invent a marvellous future I know that it is unlikely that I shall have enough years ahead of me to be sure that it comes to pass without human folly and adherence to primitive old ways of thought and irrational belief wreaking destruction.

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk
    'Instead of cheap sneers it would be more interesting for those who recognise and appreciate Ivan’s civility and attempt at fact based balance' [sic]

    wizard the senile old fart has been crapping all over the place, your antics was even discussed in some other sites.

    A kind reminder,
    you were banished to my 'bozo file' long ago, remember. ?

    I suggest you two can book a room to continue with your mumbo jumbo instead of wasting bandwidth here !

    hehehehe
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Good morning, denk!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ivan
    Oz, the whole trick of being a 'good loser' is summarised in Eccleiastes

    I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favour to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all.

    If only you had quoted the KJV you would have been on my shortlist for Bishop if Mysore (but you’d better brush up your Kannada in these populist times if you want the prize of such a climatically blessed See, though in the ancient Catholic/Anglican tradition theological studies would be optional) :-)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivan
    India is a fascinating place and it is easy to be spellbound by the sheer diversity of the place. But keep a sharp lookout for your business interests, just in case.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ivan
    denk,

    a) If the British in their heyday wanted to, they could have taken Tibet or made it a protectorate based on their ideas of accidental, absent-minded empire building. There were Indian kingdoms that extended into the Tibetan Plateau at one time or another, and the British with their usual cunning could have taken up the cause of the Hindus beyond the Himalayas. They did not, primarily because of their detente with the Russian Bear. The Qings could have done nothing about it. Then on which side of the ledger do you think Tibet would have fallen?

    b) And don't give me that malarkey about tributes from Tibetan, or Vietnamese kings, or Filipino chieftains entitling China to exercise suzerainty over these lands. Wasn't China at one time under the thumb of the Mongols? Why are the Chinese not ruled from Ulan Bator these days?

    c) The Indians had some cachet with the West and the rest of the world at one time in the 50s and 60s. They worked to end the isolation of China , yet all they got in return was rank ingratitude and contempt on numerous occasions. And we don't have to back that far to recount some: The invasion of Vietnam, timed to coincide with then FM Vajpayee's visit in 1979. The sheer mendacity of the world's then leading proliferator of nuclear and missile technology to all sundry, opposing the Indian right to develop nuclear weapons in 1998 is audacious and mind-boggling. BTW, the Indians can build ICBMs in short order, but we prefer to keep only China and Pakistan within range.

    d) Give respect and gain respect, we Indians may be fools and grifters but we have our own life. Have you come to a proper accounting of China's crimes? Start with their unstinting support of the murderous Khmer Rouge when they ran the Killing Fields. Or perhaps not, since the millions dead since the Communists came to power have had no reckoning. Continue harping instead on the cruelties of the Japanese, Indians and everyone else.

    Ah, What about china ?

    I take it that this is your…
    Tacit admission of a fascist India, No ?

    hehehehe

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Instead of cheap sneers it would be more interesting for those who recognise and appreciate Ivan's civility and attempt at fact based balance if you were e.g. to venture some scholarly evaluation of which elements from old civilisations (including IQ and its distribution if you like) are/have been most conducive to peaceful or at least effective transition to the post Malthusian prosperity, longevity and sustainability which is surely the highest hope outside the realms of ISIS and the Ayatollahs. Though I am one who would be a Dr Pangloss believing that millions of bright Chinese and Indians are going to invent a marvellous future I know that it is unlikely that I shall have enough years ahead of me to be sure that it comes to pass without human folly and adherence to primitive old ways of thought and irrational belief wreaking destruction.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @denk
    lol,

    Thats an unsubstantiated accusation.... from the Indian Express at that. !

    Look kid,
    What I want is irrefutable evidence, like so...

    Modi's covert overt operation in cahoot with CIA to foment terrorism in China,

    'Chinese dissidents of all hues are flying in, including, curiously, a US-based Chinese activist who was behind the Tiananmen Square incidents of 1989. (Deccan Herald)
    From all appearance, India is dusting up an old CIA file that had worked on the democracy [sic] project to stifle the communist system in China in its cradle. This is a plausible meaning of what is unfolding.

    From a mile, the participants at the Track II in Dharamsala stinks like CIA “assets”.

    But then, Modi government is also selective. It steers clear of promoting democracy in Saudi Arabia and the UAE or the Central Asian states '.........

    Or How about some charity at home eh Modi ?
    Kashmir, Nagaland, Manipur, Assam....

    What the Modi government is doing, by the yardstick of inter-state relationships, will only look a blatant interference in the internal affairs of China. The world community at large is devoted to the Westphalian principle of national sovereignty. The Modi government is crossing the ‘red line'

    Modi didnt even bother to hide what amounts to state sponsored terrorism against China, an act of war no less, such arrogance !
    With washington patronage, he seems to be getting a swelling head these days.

    http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2016/04/21/modi-govt-is-acting-like-a-bull-in-china-shop/

    p.s.
    a friendly advice,
    ad hominem would get you no where, only make you looks even more silly.
    hehehehe

    denk,

    a) If the British in their heyday wanted to, they could have taken Tibet or made it a protectorate based on their ideas of accidental, absent-minded empire building. There were Indian kingdoms that extended into the Tibetan Plateau at one time or another, and the British with their usual cunning could have taken up the cause of the Hindus beyond the Himalayas. They did not, primarily because of their detente with the Russian Bear. The Qings could have done nothing about it. Then on which side of the ledger do you think Tibet would have fallen?

    b) And don’t give me that malarkey about tributes from Tibetan, or Vietnamese kings, or Filipino chieftains entitling China to exercise suzerainty over these lands. Wasn’t China at one time under the thumb of the Mongols? Why are the Chinese not ruled from Ulan Bator these days?

    c) The Indians had some cachet with the West and the rest of the world at one time in the 50s and 60s. They worked to end the isolation of China , yet all they got in return was rank ingratitude and contempt on numerous occasions. And we don’t have to back that far to recount some: The invasion of Vietnam, timed to coincide with then FM Vajpayee’s visit in 1979. The sheer mendacity of the world’s then leading proliferator of nuclear and missile technology to all sundry, opposing the Indian right to develop nuclear weapons in 1998 is audacious and mind-boggling. BTW, the Indians can build ICBMs in short order, but we prefer to keep only China and Pakistan within range.

    d) Give respect and gain respect, we Indians may be fools and grifters but we have our own life. Have you come to a proper accounting of China’s crimes? Start with their unstinting support of the murderous Khmer Rouge when they ran the Killing Fields. Or perhaps not, since the millions dead since the Communists came to power have had no reckoning. Continue harping instead on the cruelties of the Japanese, Indians and everyone else.

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk
    Ah, What about china ?

    I take it that this is your...
    Tacit admission of a fascist India, No ?

    hehehehe
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    Good to talk to a civilised realist. There are too many prickly chauvinists about.

    Your "we'll just muddle along" is a reminder that India anf Britain were a better fit in character than a lot of empires achieve between rulers and ruled. Having ancestors from all over the British Isles I allow myself to notice also that the English and Irish are remarkably alike despite their mutual histories. But being a crude colonial Australian I have to admit to looking at the cricket playing wotld and saying that Englishmen and Indians had the gentlemanly character in common of being good losers :-) But times change and I gather Australia will be lucky to win one of the four tests it is due to play in India in May and June.

    Oz, the whole trick of being a ‘good loser’ is summarised in Eccleiastes

    I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favour to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    If only you had quoted the KJV you would have been on my shortlist for Bishop if Mysore (but you'd better brush up your Kannada in these populist times if you want the prize of such a climatically blessed See, though in the ancient Catholic/Anglican tradition theological studies would be optional) :-)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @denk
    That was in stark contrast to China's treatment of Indian POW.

    Beijing declared a voluntary ceasefire, pulled back its troops after routing the intruders, never taking an inch of the disputed area which led to the conflict.
    Even the pro Indian brits had to grudgingly concede that
    'this must be the first time a great power doesnt take advantage of a gain in the battle field'.

    All indian POW were promptly released after their injuries were properly taken care of, with their rifles, artilleries cleaned and oiled !


    If the Chinese figure that such magnanimity would induce good will from the Indians they were sorely mistaken.
    India like Japan continues to be willing compradors of western imperialists and repay Chinese kindness with more treacheries.
    WTF !

    p.s.
    That PLA soldier wasnt even a POW, he happened to strayed across the poorly marked border AFTER the war.
    The Indians grabbed him and kept him prisoner for propaganda sake.
    What a shame !

    https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/strong-anna-louise/1963/letters_china/ch08.htm

    This goes to show the characters of the two peoples. Chinese are magnanimous even to people who have wronged them, including the Japanese and the Indian. Indian on the other hand are petty and vindictive.

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk
    At least the murkkans apologised for their
    crime against Jp ,

    http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/28/world/la-fg-india-chinese-20130628

    To think that Delhi was the aggressor in the first place. !
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @DB Cooper
    Well, news just broke that India has been keeping a captured Chinese soldier for 54 years. This is a clear violation of the Geneva Convention regarding the treatment of POW. India has some answering to do.

    Adding insult to injury, India is the aggressor in the 1962 war.

    http://gregoryclark.net/redif.html
    http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/news-events/podcasts/renewed-tension-indiachina-border-whos-blame

    That was in stark contrast to China’s treatment of Indian POW.

    Beijing declared a voluntary ceasefire, pulled back its troops after routing the intruders, never taking an inch of the disputed area which led to the conflict.
    Even the pro Indian brits had to grudgingly concede that
    ‘this must be the first time a great power doesnt take advantage of a gain in the battle field’.

    All indian POW were promptly released after their injuries were properly taken care of, with their rifles, artilleries cleaned and oiled !

    If the Chinese figure that such magnanimity would induce good will from the Indians they were sorely mistaken.
    India like Japan continues to be willing compradors of western imperialists and repay Chinese kindness with more treacheries.
    WTF !

    p.s.
    That PLA soldier wasnt even a POW, he happened to strayed across the poorly marked border AFTER the war.
    The Indians grabbed him and kept him prisoner for propaganda sake.
    What a shame !

    https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/strong-anna-louise/1963/letters_china/ch08.htm

    Read More
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    This goes to show the characters of the two peoples. Chinese are magnanimous even to people who have wronged them, including the Japanese and the Indian. Indian on the other hand are petty and vindictive.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ivan
    denki! My tourette syndrome suffering friend, for your further derangement or enlightenment:

    http://indianexpress.com/article/india/chinese-agencies-helping-north-east-militants-in-myanmar-4468384/

    http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/the-myth-of-a-political-bond-4467027/

    lol,

    Thats an unsubstantiated accusation…. from the Indian Express at that. !

    Look kid,
    What I want is irrefutable evidence, like so…

    Modi’s covert overt operation in cahoot with CIA to foment terrorism in China,

    ‘Chinese dissidents of all hues are flying in, including, curiously, a US-based Chinese activist who was behind the Tiananmen Square incidents of 1989. (Deccan Herald)
    From all appearance, India is dusting up an old CIA file that had worked on the democracy [sic] project to stifle the communist system in China in its cradle. This is a plausible meaning of what is unfolding.

    From a mile, the participants at the Track II in Dharamsala stinks like CIA “assets”.

    But then, Modi government is also selective. It steers clear of promoting democracy in Saudi Arabia and the UAE or the Central Asian states ‘………

    Or How about some charity at home eh Modi ?
    Kashmir, Nagaland, Manipur, Assam….

    What the Modi government is doing, by the yardstick of inter-state relationships, will only look a blatant interference in the internal affairs of China. The world community at large is devoted to the Westphalian principle of national sovereignty. The Modi government is crossing the ‘red line’

    Modi didnt even bother to hide what amounts to state sponsored terrorism against China, an act of war no less, such arrogance !
    With washington patronage, he seems to be getting a swelling head these days.

    http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2016/04/21/modi-govt-is-acting-like-a-bull-in-china-shop/

    p.s.
    a friendly advice,
    ad hominem would get you no where, only make you looks even more silly.
    hehehehe

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivan
    denk,

    a) If the British in their heyday wanted to, they could have taken Tibet or made it a protectorate based on their ideas of accidental, absent-minded empire building. There were Indian kingdoms that extended into the Tibetan Plateau at one time or another, and the British with their usual cunning could have taken up the cause of the Hindus beyond the Himalayas. They did not, primarily because of their detente with the Russian Bear. The Qings could have done nothing about it. Then on which side of the ledger do you think Tibet would have fallen?

    b) And don't give me that malarkey about tributes from Tibetan, or Vietnamese kings, or Filipino chieftains entitling China to exercise suzerainty over these lands. Wasn't China at one time under the thumb of the Mongols? Why are the Chinese not ruled from Ulan Bator these days?

    c) The Indians had some cachet with the West and the rest of the world at one time in the 50s and 60s. They worked to end the isolation of China , yet all they got in return was rank ingratitude and contempt on numerous occasions. And we don't have to back that far to recount some: The invasion of Vietnam, timed to coincide with then FM Vajpayee's visit in 1979. The sheer mendacity of the world's then leading proliferator of nuclear and missile technology to all sundry, opposing the Indian right to develop nuclear weapons in 1998 is audacious and mind-boggling. BTW, the Indians can build ICBMs in short order, but we prefer to keep only China and Pakistan within range.

    d) Give respect and gain respect, we Indians may be fools and grifters but we have our own life. Have you come to a proper accounting of China's crimes? Start with their unstinting support of the murderous Khmer Rouge when they ran the Killing Fields. Or perhaps not, since the millions dead since the Communists came to power have had no reckoning. Continue harping instead on the cruelties of the Japanese, Indians and everyone else.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Well, news just broke that India has been keeping a captured Chinese soldier for 54 years. This is a clear violation of the Geneva Convention regarding the treatment of POW. India has some answering to do.

    Adding insult to injury, India is the aggressor in the 1962 war.

    http://gregoryclark.net/redif.html
    http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/news-events/podcasts/renewed-tension-indiachina-border-whos-blame

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk
    That was in stark contrast to China's treatment of Indian POW.

    Beijing declared a voluntary ceasefire, pulled back its troops after routing the intruders, never taking an inch of the disputed area which led to the conflict.
    Even the pro Indian brits had to grudgingly concede that
    'this must be the first time a great power doesnt take advantage of a gain in the battle field'.

    All indian POW were promptly released after their injuries were properly taken care of, with their rifles, artilleries cleaned and oiled !


    If the Chinese figure that such magnanimity would induce good will from the Indians they were sorely mistaken.
    India like Japan continues to be willing compradors of western imperialists and repay Chinese kindness with more treacheries.
    WTF !

    p.s.
    That PLA soldier wasnt even a POW, he happened to strayed across the poorly marked border AFTER the war.
    The Indians grabbed him and kept him prisoner for propaganda sake.
    What a shame !

    https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/strong-anna-louise/1963/letters_china/ch08.htm
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ivan
    The Gogolesque situation in India has improved beyond recognition over the last 30 years, at least since the reforms of 1991. I can relate to the many horror stories as an Indian passing through airport customs during the 80s. The businessman had captured the petty mindset accurately. I will add though that much of the power that petty officers have come to wield is a function of gross shortages in India. This is largely because we are a very resource poor country for the size of the population.
    The opportunities for personal enrichment comes by only rarely and one has to grab it, since to occupy that position in the first place had come at a considerable cost to the holder of that position. For example if the government were to announce a scheme to provide clean water to a section of a city, you can be sure that those with money or connections will get it first even today, leaving perhaps little for the rest. But this is because there is both an objective shortage of water, and that the poorer sections have no intention of paying for it. Hence the markets work by shifting that water to the higher bidders.
    India is actually economically optimal. Have you seen food wasted in India? Successive Indian governments had to provide for the welfare of an additional 7.5 million mouths for many years. We had to escape the Malthusian trap, but doing so without killing off the peasantry. This was largely due to the inherent humanity of the founding fathers of India, who saw every Indian as a human being in his own right and not as a factor of production as in some other countries. Hence the stage of primitive accumulation was a long one. We are now operating at the limit of our production possibilities given our endowment. Modi because he floated with the growth in Gujarat consequent on the economic reforms of the 90s, thinks that he has a magic wand to induce growth. There is no such thing but we will just muddle along.

    Good to talk to a civilised realist. There are too many prickly chauvinists about.

    Your “we’ll just muddle along” is a reminder that India anf Britain were a better fit in character than a lot of empires achieve between rulers and ruled. Having ancestors from all over the British Isles I allow myself to notice also that the English and Irish are remarkably alike despite their mutual histories. But being a crude colonial Australian I have to admit to looking at the cricket playing wotld and saying that Englishmen and Indians had the gentlemanly character in common of being good losers :-) But times change and I gather Australia will be lucky to win one of the four tests it is due to play in India in May and June.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivan
    Oz, the whole trick of being a 'good loser' is summarised in Eccleiastes

    I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favour to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @denk
    First off, I despise liar .
    Still waiting for your evidence of 'chicoms support of NE insurgency'.

    The mass rapes of men/women/minors/seniors in the 'seven sisters' and Kashmir, socalled 'disturbed area' ,aint 'casual crimes', its a premeditated, systematic tactics to humiliate the occupied people,. Its worst than insane, cuz its a cold blooded , sadistic calculus to break the morale of the resistance to Indian colonial rule.

    Not only are the NE folks trampled on and abused in their own land by the Indian occupation armies, when they go to the indian heartland to tudy or work they are also marked for violence and sex crimes.
    Why ?
    cuz they look different from the heartlanders, who call the NE folks 'chinkie terrorists'.
    'chinkie' cuz NE folks are Chinese/Mongoliod people while Indians are Dravidians./Aryans.
    'terrorists' cuz they have been fighting against the Indian occupation army since 1947.

    So how did the 'seven sisters' landed in the Indian map in the first place ?
    Not only are the people there simply dont belong, even the land look like a sore thumb sticking out of the indian land mass on a map !

    When the Brits granted Indian independence, all the 'seven sisters' also declared their own independence.
    Alas, Nehru reponse by sending in a massive army to invade the seven regions, including those who werent even in the British Raj . !
    Delhi even boasted that 'there'd be one jawan for every tree in Nagaland' !
    What followed was decades of genocidal wars which wiped out hundreds of thousands of NE people, devasted most of their pristine land, mass rapes of untold savagery.

    Ivan'
    'There is absolutely no reason for India to respect the shibboleths of the then British Empire in disposing of the territory of historical India.'

    Indeed !
    You've certainly out done your Brit mentors in empire building
    .
    In your own back yard at least.
    With the rapacious murkkan empire as your mentor now, Who know, perhaps the sky is the limit from now on.
    hehehhehe

    Indian media make a hue and cry over the almost daily sexual crimes in Delhi etc, in fact those are like child's play compared to the untold atrocities committed by the Indian state against the 'seven sisters' and Kashmir.

    You call yourself a christian and humanist, what've you done to oppose Delhi state terrorism against its 'own people', other than blaming it all on the 'chicoms' ?
    Read More
    • Replies: @denk
    lol,

    Thats an unsubstantiated accusation.... from the Indian Express at that. !

    Look kid,
    What I want is irrefutable evidence, like so...

    Modi's covert overt operation in cahoot with CIA to foment terrorism in China,

    'Chinese dissidents of all hues are flying in, including, curiously, a US-based Chinese activist who was behind the Tiananmen Square incidents of 1989. (Deccan Herald)
    From all appearance, India is dusting up an old CIA file that had worked on the democracy [sic] project to stifle the communist system in China in its cradle. This is a plausible meaning of what is unfolding.

    From a mile, the participants at the Track II in Dharamsala stinks like CIA “assets”.

    But then, Modi government is also selective. It steers clear of promoting democracy in Saudi Arabia and the UAE or the Central Asian states '.........

    Or How about some charity at home eh Modi ?
    Kashmir, Nagaland, Manipur, Assam....

    What the Modi government is doing, by the yardstick of inter-state relationships, will only look a blatant interference in the internal affairs of China. The world community at large is devoted to the Westphalian principle of national sovereignty. The Modi government is crossing the ‘red line'

    Modi didnt even bother to hide what amounts to state sponsored terrorism against China, an act of war no less, such arrogance !
    With washington patronage, he seems to be getting a swelling head these days.

    http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2016/04/21/modi-govt-is-acting-like-a-bull-in-china-shop/

    p.s.
    a friendly advice,
    ad hominem would get you no where, only make you looks even more silly.
    hehehehe
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Outcry when some perverts gang rape a woman in Delhi,
    Silence on state terrorism including mass rape in NE against the ‘chinkie faced terrorists’ and in Kashmir against the ‘moslem terrorists’.

    India, your name is hypocrisy.
    Just like your soul mate uncle SHAM.

    hehehehe

    http://www.countercurrents.org/jayaram150913.htm

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  • @Wizard of Oz
    Thanks for contributing credible information in the course of a pretty civil discussion. One of your points reminds of what was said to me by an urbane Indian-American businessman on a recent flight when I amused him with my experiences of Indian bureaucracy recently and over many years and observed that seeing Gogol's "The Government Inspector" performed by an Indian company made me think India and Russia would be finalists to win the gold medal for bureaucracy. His point was that insisting on, or making up, petty rules gave people a little power that was otherwise lacking in their lives. (I would like to be able to tell him about the permit Raj that prevailed within the private institution that hosted me very warmly and hospitably later in India).

    The Gogolesque situation in India has improved beyond recognition over the last 30 years, at least since the reforms of 1991. I can relate to the many horror stories as an Indian passing through airport customs during the 80s. The businessman had captured the petty mindset accurately. I will add though that much of the power that petty officers have come to wield is a function of gross shortages in India. This is largely because we are a very resource poor country for the size of the population.
    The opportunities for personal enrichment comes by only rarely and one has to grab it, since to occupy that position in the first place had come at a considerable cost to the holder of that position. For example if the government were to announce a scheme to provide clean water to a section of a city, you can be sure that those with money or connections will get it first even today, leaving perhaps little for the rest. But this is because there is both an objective shortage of water, and that the poorer sections have no intention of paying for it. Hence the markets work by shifting that water to the higher bidders.
    India is actually economically optimal. Have you seen food wasted in India? Successive Indian governments had to provide for the welfare of an additional 7.5 million mouths for many years. We had to escape the Malthusian trap, but doing so without killing off the peasantry. This was largely due to the inherent humanity of the founding fathers of India, who saw every Indian as a human being in his own right and not as a factor of production as in some other countries. Hence the stage of primitive accumulation was a long one. We are now operating at the limit of our production possibilities given our endowment. Modi because he floated with the growth in Gujarat consequent on the economic reforms of the 90s, thinks that he has a magic wand to induce growth. There is no such thing but we will just muddle along.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Good to talk to a civilised realist. There are too many prickly chauvinists about.

    Your "we'll just muddle along" is a reminder that India anf Britain were a better fit in character than a lot of empires achieve between rulers and ruled. Having ancestors from all over the British Isles I allow myself to notice also that the English and Irish are remarkably alike despite their mutual histories. But being a crude colonial Australian I have to admit to looking at the cricket playing wotld and saying that Englishmen and Indians had the gentlemanly character in common of being good losers :-) But times change and I gather Australia will be lucky to win one of the four tests it is due to play in India in May and June.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Seraphim
    And English remained practically the official language of India.

    "The constitution requires the authoritative text of all laws, including Parliamentary enactments and statutory instruments, to be in English, until Parliament decides otherwise. Parliament has not exercised its power to so decide, instead merely requiring that all such laws and instruments, and all bills brought before it, also be translated into Hindi, though the English text remains authoritative...
    The constitution provides that all proceedings in the Supreme Court of India, the country's highest court and the High Courts, shall be in English. Parliament has the power to alter this by law, but has not done so. However, in many high courts, there is, with consent from the president, allowance of the optional use of Hindi...."

    English remains the language of higher education, business, call centers. It's the language of the Indian diaspora. It is the language of predilection for the dissemination of the Indian culture!
    India remains a member of the British Commonwealth (cosmetically called 'The Commonwealth of Nations'). And the most popular sport in India is the quintessential British sport, cricket, with a fanatical following who made it into a Hindu cult and erects temples to 'the god of cricket' Tendulkar.

    English is the language that gives Indians the urbanity they have, limited though it sometimes is. Resentment at the effortless superiority by virtue of an English language education does play out in some of the jingoism we see among the BJP bakthans.

    https://www.telegraphindia.com/1050709/asp/frontpage/story_4969327.asp

    Hell, the Great Trigonometric Survey of India, and the associated maritime surveys conducted by agents of the British Empire limned the Indian physical space.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Trigonometrical_Survey

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  • @Ivan
    denk, my insane Chicom friend, I am the last person to defend casual brutality. Some decades ago I heard from a friend who travelled in Nagaland, that a man came up to him and told him that he was raped by an Indian soldier. My friend was rather shocked by this, and I don't see any reason for any man to claim this most cruel of assaults on his own dignity, unless it is true.

    First off, I despise liar .
    Still waiting for your evidence of ‘chicoms support of NE insurgency’.

    The mass rapes of men/women/minors/seniors in the ‘seven sisters’ and Kashmir, socalled ‘disturbed area’ ,aint ‘casual crimes’, its a premeditated, systematic tactics to humiliate the occupied people,. Its worst than insane, cuz its a cold blooded , sadistic calculus to break the morale of the resistance to Indian colonial rule.

    Not only are the NE folks trampled on and abused in their own land by the Indian occupation armies, when they go to the indian heartland to tudy or work they are also marked for violence and sex crimes.
    Why ?
    cuz they look different from the heartlanders, who call the NE folks ‘chinkie terrorists’.
    ‘chinkie’ cuz NE folks are Chinese/Mongoliod people while Indians are Dravidians./Aryans.
    ‘terrorists’ cuz they have been fighting against the Indian occupation army since 1947.

    So how did the ‘seven sisters’ landed in the Indian map in the first place ?
    Not only are the people there simply dont belong, even the land look like a sore thumb sticking out of the indian land mass on a map !

    When the Brits granted Indian independence, all the ‘seven sisters’ also declared their own independence.
    Alas, Nehru reponse by sending in a massive army to invade the seven regions, including those who werent even in the British Raj . !
    Delhi even boasted that ‘there’d be one jawan for every tree in Nagaland’ !
    What followed was decades of genocidal wars which wiped out hundreds of thousands of NE people, devasted most of their pristine land, mass rapes of untold savagery.

    Ivan’
    ‘There is absolutely no reason for India to respect the shibboleths of the then British Empire in disposing of the territory of historical India.’

    Indeed !
    You’ve certainly out done your Brit mentors in empire building
    .
    In your own back yard at least.
    With the rapacious murkkan empire as your mentor now, Who know, perhaps the sky is the limit from now on.
    hehehhehe

    Indian media make a hue and cry over the almost daily sexual crimes in Delhi etc, in fact those are like child’s play compared to the untold atrocities committed by the Indian state against the ‘seven sisters’ and Kashmir.

    You call yourself a christian and humanist, what’ve you done to oppose Delhi state terrorism against its ‘own people’, other than blaming it all on the ‘chicoms’ ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivan
    denki! My tourette syndrome suffering friend, for your further derangement or enlightenment:

    http://indianexpress.com/article/india/chinese-agencies-helping-north-east-militants-in-myanmar-4468384/

    http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/the-myth-of-a-political-bond-4467027/

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Zenarchy
    Probably not the best word, I admit.

    Genocidal not in deliberately killing Indians, but in the sense of not caring whether millions died from hunger due to pressuring them to grow opium poppy instead of food, while at the same time raising taxes from 10 percent to 50 percent. It's like some of Stalin's actions, which are only partially genocide in the conventional sense.

    The Great Bengali famine would be a good place to start a research:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Bengal_famine_of_1770

    "In the first years of the rule of the British East India Company, the total land tax income was doubled and most of this revenue flowed out of the country.[10] As the famine approached its height in April 1770, the Company announced that the land tax for the following year was to be increased by a further 10 percent.
    Sushil Chaudhury writes that the destruction of food crops in Bengal to make way for opium poppy cultivation for export reduced food availability and contributed to the famine.[11] The company is also criticised for ordering the farmers to plant indigo instead of rice, as well as forbidding the "hoarding" of rice. This prevented traders and dealers from laying in reserves that in other times would have tided the population over lean periods.
    By the time of the famine, monopolies in grain trading had been established by the company and its agents. The company had no plan for dealing with the grain shortage, and actions were only taken insofar as they affected the mercantile and trading classes."

    Just the very brief comment that you are conflating maybe ten generations in a rapidly changing world from one where the glimmerings of Victorian morality were just beginning to appear in late 18th century agitation against slavery and impeachments of Englishmen who had misused East India Company power in India to one where modernity had allowed, inter alia, a vast growth in subcontinental population etc etc. and international declarations of human rights.

    btw in the course of listening to heterodox scientists on global climate change I learned that one of the many underexplored natural cycles going back hundreds of years coincided with devastating famines approx every 60 years in India….

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  • @Ivan
    While mediocre in two South Indian languages myself, Hindi itself - like another bastard language of many fathers, English - is considered impure by some sectors, since it has numerous importations and aliterations from of all things, the Urdu type of languages. The languages of the hated Muslim invaders! So much for the language bigots, and their claim of nativeness.

    Oops! Google “are hindi and urdu the same language?” and you will understand what questions your comment has prompted.

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  • @Ivan
    I have to say that the phenomenon of aggrieved Hindu nationalism as represented by the upper class of the BJP, compounded of real and imaginary greviances came as a surprise to me. While not nearly as pernicious as that of the various Muslim varieties holding the field currently, the phenomenon seem to have the same roots.

    It's a mechanism of self defense and actualization in coping with with the reality that one is nowhere as good - almost exclusively as measured in material terms - as one imagines, oneself to be.

    India is a patchwork of nationalities held together by the inherent tolerance of the Hindu religion. The British Raj gave India the physical and administrative it has today. We have developed in that space. Any long term attempt to impose an intolerant strain of Hinduism on India as it is constituted today will be met with various separatisms both physical and spiritual. The wheels will come off before reaching their destination.

    Thanks for contributing credible information in the course of a pretty civil discussion. One of your points reminds of what was said to me by an urbane Indian-American businessman on a recent flight when I amused him with my experiences of Indian bureaucracy recently and over many years and observed that seeing Gogol’s “The Government Inspector” performed by an Indian company made me think India and Russia would be finalists to win the gold medal for bureaucracy. His point was that insisting on, or making up, petty rules gave people a little power that was otherwise lacking in their lives. (I would like to be able to tell him about the permit Raj that prevailed within the private institution that hosted me very warmly and hospitably later in India).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivan
    The Gogolesque situation in India has improved beyond recognition over the last 30 years, at least since the reforms of 1991. I can relate to the many horror stories as an Indian passing through airport customs during the 80s. The businessman had captured the petty mindset accurately. I will add though that much of the power that petty officers have come to wield is a function of gross shortages in India. This is largely because we are a very resource poor country for the size of the population.
    The opportunities for personal enrichment comes by only rarely and one has to grab it, since to occupy that position in the first place had come at a considerable cost to the holder of that position. For example if the government were to announce a scheme to provide clean water to a section of a city, you can be sure that those with money or connections will get it first even today, leaving perhaps little for the rest. But this is because there is both an objective shortage of water, and that the poorer sections have no intention of paying for it. Hence the markets work by shifting that water to the higher bidders.
    India is actually economically optimal. Have you seen food wasted in India? Successive Indian governments had to provide for the welfare of an additional 7.5 million mouths for many years. We had to escape the Malthusian trap, but doing so without killing off the peasantry. This was largely due to the inherent humanity of the founding fathers of India, who saw every Indian as a human being in his own right and not as a factor of production as in some other countries. Hence the stage of primitive accumulation was a long one. We are now operating at the limit of our production possibilities given our endowment. Modi because he floated with the growth in Gujarat consequent on the economic reforms of the 90s, thinks that he has a magic wand to induce growth. There is no such thing but we will just muddle along.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    Thanks for a lot of interesting information, my thanks only slightly qualified by exaggeration such as there not being a single Muslim in Spain. That might have been almost true in the 16th century and, the odd diplomat excepted, for four centuries after that but not now. As for your kicking the old and weak when they are down by exaggerating the intolerant excesses of the Catholic Church for (actually more than) a thousand years, well an Anglican atheist will let Seraphim spell out the objections.

    I have found India fascinating since my first visit 32 years ago, and before when reading Richard Aldington's biography of the Duke of Wellington which made a recent visit to Tipu Sultan's fortress and summer palace a special pleasure (the restoration of the latter more than the ruins of the latter). More recently it occurred to me that Bangalore becoming Bengaluru was hardly the work of citizens of a Hindi supremacist country. Not that having to deal with anyone in Bangalore who didn't speak competent English was a problem until I had to tell my Uber driver to the airport where to pick me up when he only spoke Kannada.

    You confirm btw that I was right 30 years ago in criticising discussions of "Asian" immigration by reference to there being at least as much diversity of almost everything within India alone as in the whole of Europe. It would be sad to see Hindu nationalism grow.

    Hey, no fair. We get yelled at when we send Muslims out of the country and again when we bring them in.

    Just can’t seem to catch a break …

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  • @Ivan
    I have to say that the phenomenon of aggrieved Hindu nationalism as represented by the upper class of the BJP, compounded of real and imaginary greviances came as a surprise to me. While not nearly as pernicious as that of the various Muslim varieties holding the field currently, the phenomenon seem to have the same roots.

    It's a mechanism of self defense and actualization in coping with with the reality that one is nowhere as good - almost exclusively as measured in material terms - as one imagines, oneself to be.

    India is a patchwork of nationalities held together by the inherent tolerance of the Hindu religion. The British Raj gave India the physical and administrative it has today. We have developed in that space. Any long term attempt to impose an intolerant strain of Hinduism on India as it is constituted today will be met with various separatisms both physical and spiritual. The wheels will come off before reaching their destination.

    And English remained practically the official language of India.

    “The constitution requires the authoritative text of all laws, including Parliamentary enactments and statutory instruments, to be in English, until Parliament decides otherwise. Parliament has not exercised its power to so decide, instead merely requiring that all such laws and instruments, and all bills brought before it, also be translated into Hindi, though the English text remains authoritative…
    The constitution provides that all proceedings in the Supreme Court of India, the country’s highest court and the High Courts, shall be in English. Parliament has the power to alter this by law, but has not done so. However, in many high courts, there is, with consent from the president, allowance of the optional use of Hindi….”

    English remains the language of higher education, business, call centers. It’s the language of the Indian diaspora. It is the language of predilection for the dissemination of the Indian culture!
    India remains a member of the British Commonwealth (cosmetically called ‘The Commonwealth of Nations’). And the most popular sport in India is the quintessential British sport, cricket, with a fanatical following who made it into a Hindu cult and erects temples to ‘the god of cricket’ Tendulkar.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivan
    English is the language that gives Indians the urbanity they have, limited though it sometimes is. Resentment at the effortless superiority by virtue of an English language education does play out in some of the jingoism we see among the BJP bakthans.

    https://www.telegraphindia.com/1050709/asp/frontpage/story_4969327.asp

    Hell, the Great Trigonometric Survey of India, and the associated maritime surveys conducted by agents of the British Empire limned the Indian physical space.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Trigonometrical_Survey
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Ivan
    Moghuls were descended from the Mongols. They were equal opportunity slaughterers. Mongols have that kind of reputation but they were also businessmen after a fashion. Why would they want to kill all that people that they needed to work the fields after the spate of conquests. They had to have the goods and taxes. The Muslim rulers were not stupid, conversion to Islam meant that the erstwhile dhimmi could not be taxed, his daughters could not be taken. Hence it was in the interest of the Muslim ruling class that rhetoric aside, fewer than necessary Hindus converted. It made good economic sense to tax farm instead.

    The overwhelming majority of Muslims in India are converts, voluntary in the sense that when the village headman converted they converted along with him. They seem to have done it for reasons of economics and to escape the oppression of the upper castes. The average Muslim in India is a dusky fellow, he doesn't look like Shah Rukh Khan by a long shot.

    Thanks for confirming my modestly held views and knowledge.

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  • @v v anand
    (a) Sorry, I cant agree. I am a South Indian and we care two hoots for Hindi. In 1965, there was virtually a civil war, in Tamilnadu state when The then Central Govt. ordered that" a working knowledge of Hindi would be essential " for a Govt. job. Maybe, a thousand people died in 1965 in Tamilnadu, the Chief Ministers of the three other Southern states dashed to Delhi and persuaded then then PM Lal Bahadur Shastri to withdraw that order. And those golden words about "essential language knowledge" have remained unrepeated ever since then.

    (b) That said, India has evolved its language policy gradually and with accomodation and Hindi has spread due to commerce and is mostly accepted. To tell the truth, no Hindi-speaker in 1965 had any designs on job-grabbing through language-exclusive rules. So, understanding has grown. The evolution of the language divide in India is an example of how even the religious divides in India and South Asia are capable of being moderated and resolved gradually . As for you westerners and non-South-Asians, my suggestion to you folks is to keep the usual cut-his-throat history of the West out of the picture if you wish to understand India. The Arabs ruled Spain for 7 centuries . Today, there is not a single Muslim in Spain. As for forcible conversion, last year there was a landmark event in Bangladesh, when in a trial relating to the 1971 massacres under Pak army rule in then-East-Pakistan , one Dilawar Hossain Saeedi was sentenced to death for, inter alia, forcible conversion of 20 Hindus to Islam in 1971. So, in a largely Muslim country, a largely Muslim Court Bench sentenced a man to death for, among other crimes, for forcible conversion! As far as I know this was the first time in world history that forcible conversion was adjudged as a crime against humanity. But that happened in South Asia. How much penalty should be given to the Catholic Church which has done nothing but forcible conversion on a planetary scale for a full millenium ? And has entirely captured two continents in the process ! (In the Bangladesh case, the only contribution of the Western elite is to berate Bangladesh for "shortcomings "in the trials. One Lord Carlile, a lawyer in London even has the audacity to write a long article to say that "forcibly converting 20 people is not itself a crime against humanity" Apparently you must repeatedly do it to qualify for punishment !

    (c) An additional factor is that in India there is huge diversity and each indivudual is himself diverse with multiple identities. Thus, caste allegiances criss-cross state boundaries. And division between caste groups prevents consolidation of regional loyalties and softens the inter-regional differences. Thus, the enthusuasm for Hindi is largely driven by upper-caste Hindus in the Hindi-speaking North,. Now, when the subaltern classes, or backward castes have mobilised politically, in the very same Hindi regions, these new forces have no time for Hindi fanaticism. In UP, in the HIndi heartland, in Sitapur, the Dalit leaders (represent the oppressed untouchables) have even erected a statue for English language, which they feel is better for liberating them. Another example relates to the huge river water dispute between the states of Karnataka and Tamilnadu leading to protests and riots. But the Chief Minister of Karnataka is a Kuruba by caste, a caste spread over also, incidentally, the neighbouring state of Tamilnadu. And when an "All India Kuruba Convention "was held , as it happened., in Tamilnadu , who else is the Chief Guest but the Honourable Chief Minister of Karnataka , who is the Kuruba casteman of highest prominence presently ! I wont romanticise it, but these are elements that soften various conflicts in India, which an outsider may find very novel.

    Thanks for a lot of interesting information, my thanks only slightly qualified by exaggeration such as there not being a single Muslim in Spain. That might have been almost true in the 16th century and, the odd diplomat excepted, for four centuries after that but not now. As for your kicking the old and weak when they are down by exaggerating the intolerant excesses of the Catholic Church for (actually more than) a thousand years, well an Anglican atheist will let Seraphim spell out the objections.

    I have found India fascinating since my first visit 32 years ago, and before when reading Richard Aldington’s biography of the Duke of Wellington which made a recent visit to Tipu Sultan’s fortress and summer palace a special pleasure (the restoration of the latter more than the ruins of the latter). More recently it occurred to me that Bangalore becoming Bengaluru was hardly the work of citizens of a Hindi supremacist country. Not that having to deal with anyone in Bangalore who didn’t speak competent English was a problem until I had to tell my Uber driver to the airport where to pick me up when he only spoke Kannada.

    You confirm btw that I was right 30 years ago in criticising discussions of “Asian” immigration by reference to there being at least as much diversity of almost everything within India alone as in the whole of Europe. It would be sad to see Hindu nationalism grow.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Hey, no fair. We get yelled at when we send Muslims out of the country and again when we bring them in.

    Just can't seem to catch a break ...

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  • @Zenarchy
    I believe you that we're talking about bribing more than actual force. Even Islam spread more successfully through extra taxation for infidels than through violence (forced conversions are explicitly banned by the Quran). I also believe you because the examples given to me were always very vague, and negative personal experiences didn't amount to much more than the typical new-convert-zeal, which happens even here through Hare Krishnas. The principle survives the religious divide, so I can imagine some new Christians being annoying. Even vegans tend to be annoying for a few years at least.
    Anyway, I have good wishes for India, but I don't like either of the 2 parties very much. Seriously, Ivan: among the 7, 8 BJP Indians I know, at least 5, 6 seem more intelligent than Modi. But I've been told that in India it's usually more about being "powerful".
    Any possible alternatives?
    Aam Aadmi?

    I have to say that the phenomenon of aggrieved Hindu nationalism as represented by the upper class of the BJP, compounded of real and imaginary greviances came as a surprise to me. While not nearly as pernicious as that of the various Muslim varieties holding the field currently, the phenomenon seem to have the same roots.

    It’s a mechanism of self defense and actualization in coping with with the reality that one is nowhere as good – almost exclusively as measured in material terms – as one imagines, oneself to be.

    India is a patchwork of nationalities held together by the inherent tolerance of the Hindu religion. The British Raj gave India the physical and administrative it has today. We have developed in that space. Any long term attempt to impose an intolerant strain of Hinduism on India as it is constituted today will be met with various separatisms both physical and spiritual. The wheels will come off before reaching their destination.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    And English remained practically the official language of India.

    "The constitution requires the authoritative text of all laws, including Parliamentary enactments and statutory instruments, to be in English, until Parliament decides otherwise. Parliament has not exercised its power to so decide, instead merely requiring that all such laws and instruments, and all bills brought before it, also be translated into Hindi, though the English text remains authoritative...
    The constitution provides that all proceedings in the Supreme Court of India, the country's highest court and the High Courts, shall be in English. Parliament has the power to alter this by law, but has not done so. However, in many high courts, there is, with consent from the president, allowance of the optional use of Hindi...."

    English remains the language of higher education, business, call centers. It's the language of the Indian diaspora. It is the language of predilection for the dissemination of the Indian culture!
    India remains a member of the British Commonwealth (cosmetically called 'The Commonwealth of Nations'). And the most popular sport in India is the quintessential British sport, cricket, with a fanatical following who made it into a Hindu cult and erects temples to 'the god of cricket' Tendulkar.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Thanks for contributing credible information in the course of a pretty civil discussion. One of your points reminds of what was said to me by an urbane Indian-American businessman on a recent flight when I amused him with my experiences of Indian bureaucracy recently and over many years and observed that seeing Gogol's "The Government Inspector" performed by an Indian company made me think India and Russia would be finalists to win the gold medal for bureaucracy. His point was that insisting on, or making up, petty rules gave people a little power that was otherwise lacking in their lives. (I would like to be able to tell him about the permit Raj that prevailed within the private institution that hosted me very warmly and hospitably later in India).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @v v anand
    (a) Sorry, I cant agree. I am a South Indian and we care two hoots for Hindi. In 1965, there was virtually a civil war, in Tamilnadu state when The then Central Govt. ordered that" a working knowledge of Hindi would be essential " for a Govt. job. Maybe, a thousand people died in 1965 in Tamilnadu, the Chief Ministers of the three other Southern states dashed to Delhi and persuaded then then PM Lal Bahadur Shastri to withdraw that order. And those golden words about "essential language knowledge" have remained unrepeated ever since then.

    (b) That said, India has evolved its language policy gradually and with accomodation and Hindi has spread due to commerce and is mostly accepted. To tell the truth, no Hindi-speaker in 1965 had any designs on job-grabbing through language-exclusive rules. So, understanding has grown. The evolution of the language divide in India is an example of how even the religious divides in India and South Asia are capable of being moderated and resolved gradually . As for you westerners and non-South-Asians, my suggestion to you folks is to keep the usual cut-his-throat history of the West out of the picture if you wish to understand India. The Arabs ruled Spain for 7 centuries . Today, there is not a single Muslim in Spain. As for forcible conversion, last year there was a landmark event in Bangladesh, when in a trial relating to the 1971 massacres under Pak army rule in then-East-Pakistan , one Dilawar Hossain Saeedi was sentenced to death for, inter alia, forcible conversion of 20 Hindus to Islam in 1971. So, in a largely Muslim country, a largely Muslim Court Bench sentenced a man to death for, among other crimes, for forcible conversion! As far as I know this was the first time in world history that forcible conversion was adjudged as a crime against humanity. But that happened in South Asia. How much penalty should be given to the Catholic Church which has done nothing but forcible conversion on a planetary scale for a full millenium ? And has entirely captured two continents in the process ! (In the Bangladesh case, the only contribution of the Western elite is to berate Bangladesh for "shortcomings "in the trials. One Lord Carlile, a lawyer in London even has the audacity to write a long article to say that "forcibly converting 20 people is not itself a crime against humanity" Apparently you must repeatedly do it to qualify for punishment !

    (c) An additional factor is that in India there is huge diversity and each indivudual is himself diverse with multiple identities. Thus, caste allegiances criss-cross state boundaries. And division between caste groups prevents consolidation of regional loyalties and softens the inter-regional differences. Thus, the enthusuasm for Hindi is largely driven by upper-caste Hindus in the Hindi-speaking North,. Now, when the subaltern classes, or backward castes have mobilised politically, in the very same Hindi regions, these new forces have no time for Hindi fanaticism. In UP, in the HIndi heartland, in Sitapur, the Dalit leaders (represent the oppressed untouchables) have even erected a statue for English language, which they feel is better for liberating them. Another example relates to the huge river water dispute between the states of Karnataka and Tamilnadu leading to protests and riots. But the Chief Minister of Karnataka is a Kuruba by caste, a caste spread over also, incidentally, the neighbouring state of Tamilnadu. And when an "All India Kuruba Convention "was held , as it happened., in Tamilnadu , who else is the Chief Guest but the Honourable Chief Minister of Karnataka , who is the Kuruba casteman of highest prominence presently ! I wont romanticise it, but these are elements that soften various conflicts in India, which an outsider may find very novel.

    @keep the usual cut-his-throat history of the West out of the picture if you wish to understand India

    You should keep the history of the “Catholic Church which has done nothing but forcible conversion on a planetary scale for a full millennium” out if you wish to understand the ‘West’. Not only because it is an outrageous falsification of history, but that ‘whataboutism’ is the least effective way to exculpate Islam of its murderous rampages through the world for more than a millennium.

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  • @DanC
    To paraphrase that old saying "People who live by the sword shall die by the sword," and nowhere is this more true than in India.

    It's hard for us Americans to imagine a country where grievances a thousand years old are still being redressed and fought out, but the Indians are still experiencing aftershocks from the Moghul invasions.

    The Moghuls made modern genocidists look like amateurs.

    Not the Germans, the Soviets, even Mao himself at 60 million could come close to the numbers the Moghuls achieved. 200 million deaths is the approximate number people have calculated from the records.

    The Moghuls didn't waste time on things like transporting people to camps or prisons and then killing them, or slaughtering them with weapons onsite and throwing them in in mass graves. A favorite way of intimidating kingdoms they were invading to submit was to choose a town of a size easy to surround, say 10,,000 to 50,000 people, trap everyone inside and burn the town to the ground with everyone in it.

    The invasions radically changed hinduism from the peacable, philosophical religions that spawned Buddhism, to a hardened, radicalized, fundamentalist creed that underlies the Hindu nationalist movements today.

    And it persisted: just read about the Muslim depradations of the Hindu serf population in Hyderabad princely state during the Indian independence struggles.

    The Hindus originated that famous concept of Karma, and it has mutated into a real bitch!

    Karma is coming for you, Moghuls!

    And then of course, the violent Hindu nationalists shall in their turn suffer their own violent retribution. But that's for a century other than our own.

    And where do I read this. Please give a source other than an Indian author.

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  • @frayedthread
    Ahem..

    1947:
    Non Muslim %population of Pakistan, ~20%
    Muslim %population of India ~12%

    1948 onwards:
    Non Muslim %population of Pakistan, ~3%
    Muslim %population of India ~12%

    Who? Whom?

    Indians are better programmers;
    Pakistanis are better pogrommers.

    Muslim population of east Punjab ( the biggest concentration of Muslims on Indian side) preparation….35%

    Muslim population of East Punjab post partition….3%.

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  • @Ivan
    It is not strictly a 'forced conversion' when an erstwhile Hindu becomes a Christian for monetary reasons. More accurately one can say that he was bribed. But there are and have always been genuine conversions to faith in Jesus Christ. You won't find many Catholics particularly happy about the situation, since many of these converts are then showered with educational and employment opportunities denied to the long standing members of the church. These types of conversions have largely died down, since there is little point in 'converting' Hindus who revert back to their old religion once they have garnered the opportunities. As always with the BJP grifters, they come up with old wives tales, although they themselves are hardly aware of anyone who was forcibly 'converted'.
    When the the 'reconversion' - back to Mother Bharat drama - was being enacted about a year or so ago by the Sangh clowns, Muslims and Christians with a sense of humour agreed among themselves that if they had to they will convert but only on condition that they can go in at the lower caste levels. This is to take advantage of the educational and employment opportunities offered by the government to the lower castes. That put a crimp on the BJP morons, since it potentially hits the opportunities of their existing supporters. The BJP is a party of clowns that has as its saving grace, a measure economic rationalism. But that will not be enough to save the buggers if they ignite communal tensions once again.

    I believe you that we’re talking about bribing more than actual force. Even Islam spread more successfully through extra taxation for infidels than through violence (forced conversions are explicitly banned by the Quran). I also believe you because the examples given to me were always very vague, and negative personal experiences didn’t amount to much more than the typical new-convert-zeal, which happens even here through Hare Krishnas. The principle survives the religious divide, so I can imagine some new Christians being annoying. Even vegans tend to be annoying for a few years at least.
    Anyway, I have good wishes for India, but I don’t like either of the 2 parties very much. Seriously, Ivan: among the 7, 8 BJP Indians I know, at least 5, 6 seem more intelligent than Modi. But I’ve been told that in India it’s usually more about being “powerful”.
    Any possible alternatives?
    Aam Aadmi?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivan
    I have to say that the phenomenon of aggrieved Hindu nationalism as represented by the upper class of the BJP, compounded of real and imaginary greviances came as a surprise to me. While not nearly as pernicious as that of the various Muslim varieties holding the field currently, the phenomenon seem to have the same roots.

    It's a mechanism of self defense and actualization in coping with with the reality that one is nowhere as good - almost exclusively as measured in material terms - as one imagines, oneself to be.

    India is a patchwork of nationalities held together by the inherent tolerance of the Hindu religion. The British Raj gave India the physical and administrative it has today. We have developed in that space. Any long term attempt to impose an intolerant strain of Hinduism on India as it is constituted today will be met with various separatisms both physical and spiritual. The wheels will come off before reaching their destination.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @MEexpert
    Mister you are totally clueless. Yes there are many different languages in India but Hindi is the official National language of India.

    (a) Sorry, I cant agree. I am a South Indian and we care two hoots for Hindi. In 1965, there was virtually a civil war, in Tamilnadu state when The then Central Govt. ordered that” a working knowledge of Hindi would be essential ” for a Govt. job. Maybe, a thousand people died in 1965 in Tamilnadu, the Chief Ministers of the three other Southern states dashed to Delhi and persuaded then then PM Lal Bahadur Shastri to withdraw that order. And those golden words about “essential language knowledge” have remained unrepeated ever since then.

    (b) That said, India has evolved its language policy gradually and with accomodation and Hindi has spread due to commerce and is mostly accepted. To tell the truth, no Hindi-speaker in 1965 had any designs on job-grabbing through language-exclusive rules. So, understanding has grown. The evolution of the language divide in India is an example of how even the religious divides in India and South Asia are capable of being moderated and resolved gradually . As for you westerners and non-South-Asians, my suggestion to you folks is to keep the usual cut-his-throat history of the West out of the picture if you wish to understand India. The Arabs ruled Spain for 7 centuries . Today, there is not a single Muslim in Spain. As for forcible conversion, last year there was a landmark event in Bangladesh, when in a trial relating to the 1971 massacres under Pak army rule in then-East-Pakistan , one Dilawar Hossain Saeedi was sentenced to death for, inter alia, forcible conversion of 20 Hindus to Islam in 1971. So, in a largely Muslim country, a largely Muslim Court Bench sentenced a man to death for, among other crimes, for forcible conversion! As far as I know this was the first time in world history that forcible conversion was adjudged as a crime against humanity. But that happened in South Asia. How much penalty should be given to the Catholic Church which has done nothing but forcible conversion on a planetary scale for a full millenium ? And has entirely captured two continents in the process ! (In the Bangladesh case, the only contribution of the Western elite is to berate Bangladesh for “shortcomings “in the trials. One Lord Carlile, a lawyer in London even has the audacity to write a long article to say that “forcibly converting 20 people is not itself a crime against humanity” Apparently you must repeatedly do it to qualify for punishment !

    (c) An additional factor is that in India there is huge diversity and each indivudual is himself diverse with multiple identities. Thus, caste allegiances criss-cross state boundaries. And division between caste groups prevents consolidation of regional loyalties and softens the inter-regional differences. Thus, the enthusuasm for Hindi is largely driven by upper-caste Hindus in the Hindi-speaking North,. Now, when the subaltern classes, or backward castes have mobilised politically, in the very same Hindi regions, these new forces have no time for Hindi fanaticism. In UP, in the HIndi heartland, in Sitapur, the Dalit leaders (represent the oppressed untouchables) have even erected a statue for English language, which they feel is better for liberating them. Another example relates to the huge river water dispute between the states of Karnataka and Tamilnadu leading to protests and riots. But the Chief Minister of Karnataka is a Kuruba by caste, a caste spread over also, incidentally, the neighbouring state of Tamilnadu. And when an “All India Kuruba Convention “was held , as it happened., in Tamilnadu , who else is the Chief Guest but the Honourable Chief Minister of Karnataka , who is the Kuruba casteman of highest prominence presently ! I wont romanticise it, but these are elements that soften various conflicts in India, which an outsider may find very novel.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    @keep the usual cut-his-throat history of the West out of the picture if you wish to understand India

    You should keep the history of the "Catholic Church which has done nothing but forcible conversion on a planetary scale for a full millennium" out if you wish to understand the 'West'. Not only because it is an outrageous falsification of history, but that 'whataboutism' is the least effective way to exculpate Islam of its murderous rampages through the world for more than a millennium.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Thanks for a lot of interesting information, my thanks only slightly qualified by exaggeration such as there not being a single Muslim in Spain. That might have been almost true in the 16th century and, the odd diplomat excepted, for four centuries after that but not now. As for your kicking the old and weak when they are down by exaggerating the intolerant excesses of the Catholic Church for (actually more than) a thousand years, well an Anglican atheist will let Seraphim spell out the objections.

    I have found India fascinating since my first visit 32 years ago, and before when reading Richard Aldington's biography of the Duke of Wellington which made a recent visit to Tipu Sultan's fortress and summer palace a special pleasure (the restoration of the latter more than the ruins of the latter). More recently it occurred to me that Bangalore becoming Bengaluru was hardly the work of citizens of a Hindi supremacist country. Not that having to deal with anyone in Bangalore who didn't speak competent English was a problem until I had to tell my Uber driver to the airport where to pick me up when he only spoke Kannada.

    You confirm btw that I was right 30 years ago in criticising discussions of "Asian" immigration by reference to there being at least as much diversity of almost everything within India alone as in the whole of Europe. It would be sad to see Hindu nationalism grow.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Zenarchy
    I usually explain to Hindus that the forced conversions aren't coming from "Christians", but from particular Christian groups, and that in Goa, Christians are actually gradually diminishing in numbers. They make the same mistake as the people who equate Islam with Salafism.

    It is not strictly a ‘forced conversion’ when an erstwhile Hindu becomes a Christian for monetary reasons. More accurately one can say that he was bribed. But there are and have always been genuine conversions to faith in Jesus Christ. You won’t find many Catholics particularly happy about the situation, since many of these converts are then showered with educational and employment opportunities denied to the long standing members of the church. These types of conversions have largely died down, since there is little point in ‘converting’ Hindus who revert back to their old religion once they have garnered the opportunities. As always with the BJP grifters, they come up with old wives tales, although they themselves are hardly aware of anyone who was forcibly ‘converted’.
    When the the ‘reconversion’ – back to Mother Bharat drama – was being enacted about a year or so ago by the Sangh clowns, Muslims and Christians with a sense of humour agreed among themselves that if they had to they will convert but only on condition that they can go in at the lower caste levels. This is to take advantage of the educational and employment opportunities offered by the government to the lower castes. That put a crimp on the BJP morons, since it potentially hits the opportunities of their existing supporters. The BJP is a party of clowns that has as its saving grace, a measure economic rationalism. But that will not be enough to save the buggers if they ignite communal tensions once again.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Zenarchy
    I believe you that we're talking about bribing more than actual force. Even Islam spread more successfully through extra taxation for infidels than through violence (forced conversions are explicitly banned by the Quran). I also believe you because the examples given to me were always very vague, and negative personal experiences didn't amount to much more than the typical new-convert-zeal, which happens even here through Hare Krishnas. The principle survives the religious divide, so I can imagine some new Christians being annoying. Even vegans tend to be annoying for a few years at least.
    Anyway, I have good wishes for India, but I don't like either of the 2 parties very much. Seriously, Ivan: among the 7, 8 BJP Indians I know, at least 5, 6 seem more intelligent than Modi. But I've been told that in India it's usually more about being "powerful".
    Any possible alternatives?
    Aam Aadmi?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @bunga
    (affirmative action for Muslims).
    can you cite any data to support this claim ? This is the regular usual trope BJP utters before election causes riot and increases it's vote counts

    You’re right, I now think.

    I’m really busy, so I took mere 5 minutes to google, but it seems true affirmative action was just a bunch of promises from the Congress, and nothing seemed to have materialized out of them.
    My bad.
    For now, at least.

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  • @Ivan
    Too bad that you couldn't do anything much about us, but let us know where you live and we'll see if you can live up to your mouth.

    I usually explain to Hindus that the forced conversions aren’t coming from “Christians”, but from particular Christian groups, and that in Goa, Christians are actually gradually diminishing in numbers. They make the same mistake as the people who equate Islam with Salafism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivan
    It is not strictly a 'forced conversion' when an erstwhile Hindu becomes a Christian for monetary reasons. More accurately one can say that he was bribed. But there are and have always been genuine conversions to faith in Jesus Christ. You won't find many Catholics particularly happy about the situation, since many of these converts are then showered with educational and employment opportunities denied to the long standing members of the church. These types of conversions have largely died down, since there is little point in 'converting' Hindus who revert back to their old religion once they have garnered the opportunities. As always with the BJP grifters, they come up with old wives tales, although they themselves are hardly aware of anyone who was forcibly 'converted'.
    When the the 'reconversion' - back to Mother Bharat drama - was being enacted about a year or so ago by the Sangh clowns, Muslims and Christians with a sense of humour agreed among themselves that if they had to they will convert but only on condition that they can go in at the lower caste levels. This is to take advantage of the educational and employment opportunities offered by the government to the lower castes. That put a crimp on the BJP morons, since it potentially hits the opportunities of their existing supporters. The BJP is a party of clowns that has as its saving grace, a measure economic rationalism. But that will not be enough to save the buggers if they ignite communal tensions once again.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    You write as though you know more about India than the casually interested educated non-Indian and then...

    "erstwhile genocidal masters from Britain"

    That's at best Humpty Dumpty talk (as in Alice in Wonderland) but suggests madness. In decades of discussion with Indian friends I have never heard it suggested that the tiny corps of Brits who managed to rule India through Indian agents, civil servants, soldiers and employees were genocidal in either intent or effect. Even the modern cant use of the term by which some have suggested that Protectors of Aborigines, missionaries and social workers were engaged in cultural genocide seems remote from the activities of the East India Company and the later governmental types who tried to stop widow burning. So what's your evidence for whatever you mean by "genocidal"?

    Probably not the best word, I admit.

    Genocidal not in deliberately killing Indians, but in the sense of not caring whether millions died from hunger due to pressuring them to grow opium poppy instead of food, while at the same time raising taxes from 10 percent to 50 percent. It’s like some of Stalin’s actions, which are only partially genocide in the conventional sense.

    The Great Bengali famine would be a good place to start a research:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Bengal_famine_of_1770

    “In the first years of the rule of the British East India Company, the total land tax income was doubled and most of this revenue flowed out of the country.[10] As the famine approached its height in April 1770, the Company announced that the land tax for the following year was to be increased by a further 10 percent.
    Sushil Chaudhury writes that the destruction of food crops in Bengal to make way for opium poppy cultivation for export reduced food availability and contributed to the famine.[11] The company is also criticised for ordering the farmers to plant indigo instead of rice, as well as forbidding the “hoarding” of rice. This prevented traders and dealers from laying in reserves that in other times would have tided the population over lean periods.
    By the time of the famine, monopolies in grain trading had been established by the company and its agents. The company had no plan for dealing with the grain shortage, and actions were only taken insofar as they affected the mercantile and trading classes.”

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Just the very brief comment that you are conflating maybe ten generations in a rapidly changing world from one where the glimmerings of Victorian morality were just beginning to appear in late 18th century agitation against slavery and impeachments of Englishmen who had misused East India Company power in India to one where modernity had allowed, inter alia, a vast growth in subcontinental population etc etc. and international declarations of human rights.

    btw in the course of listening to heterodox scientists on global climate change I learned that one of the many underexplored natural cycles going back hundreds of years coincided with devastating famines approx every 60 years in India....
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  • @Seraphim
    @the most brutal invaders of India were the Catholic Portuguese

    This is a little tribute paid to the politically correct (so antifascist) meme that Christianity was the evilest colonial oppressor of 'native' peoples.
    The skirmishes with local population around the trading depots established in Kerala (with the permission of the local authorities) can hardly be called an invasion at all. The conversion of some local to Catholicism was not done through the methods of the Muslims. In fact, their converting efforts were directed at the local 'Syrian' Christians who were there since Saint Thomas.
    Not even the British expansion in India had the goal of converting the local populations. Commercial interests came first. The East India Company was little interested in proselytism.
    But, economic exploitations aside, the British rule came somewhat as a relief to India’s non-Muslims. V.S. Naipaul wrote in his book 'Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions among the Converted Peoples': ‘The British period—two hundred years in some places, less than a hundred years in others—was a time of Hindu regeneration’. For them, returning to dhimmitude under the Islamic yoke once again was clearly a less attractive choice.

    The massacre in Kerala was one of the most brutal ones, but let’s leave that aside. You have a point there.

    But you should acknowledge that the Portuguese did not allow anyone to remain in Goa who did not convert to catholicism. Please google it yourself (too busy right now). If I am wrong, do correct me…

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  • @denk
    To all the murkkans who support india's genocides on Muslims cuz
    ' Islam is always dangerous and subversive.'

    By now everybody and his dog ought to know who'r behind all those 'radical islam jihadists' , AQ, BOKO HARM, AL SHABAAB and its latest iteration, the ISIS.
    Thats right, its your very own CIA./RAW/MI6/MOSSAD.
    So berating the 'chicoms', 'pakis', 'moslems' is like barking up the wrong tree, !
    More like Robber crying robbery actually !

    Here's a challenge,
    Do you have the cojones to do an 'occupy langley', aka 'Terror Inc' ??

    Hey presto !
    No more 'moslem terrorism' ,result guaranteed.

    Not holding my breath,
    hehehehehe

    Then what about the genocides in Nagaland/Assam/Manipur ....... ?
    Those are christians./Hindus./.....
    Ivan , you call yourself a Catholic ?
    Where'r you when the dreaded Assam Rifles did those unspeakable things to the Christian girls in Naga,
    Oh I see, you were busy blaming the 'chicoms' ?

    Or the genocide on the indigenuous indians ?
    Not the Apache, kid ,
    I mean the Adivasi. !

    or the genocide on the Sikhs ?

    Are those all 'islamo terrorists' ?

    Spare us all these god damned Islamophobia !

    India is a fascist hell hole alright....just like its murkkan soul mate the unitedsnake.

    The proof is right here in the comments, Indians/murkkans embraced in an orgy of fascistic revelry.

    denk, my insane Chicom friend, I am the last person to defend casual brutality. Some decades ago I heard from a friend who travelled in Nagaland, that a man came up to him and told him that he was raped by an Indian soldier. My friend was rather shocked by this, and I don’t see any reason for any man to claim this most cruel of assaults on his own dignity, unless it is true.

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    • Replies: @denk
    First off, I despise liar .
    Still waiting for your evidence of 'chicoms support of NE insurgency'.

    The mass rapes of men/women/minors/seniors in the 'seven sisters' and Kashmir, socalled 'disturbed area' ,aint 'casual crimes', its a premeditated, systematic tactics to humiliate the occupied people,. Its worst than insane, cuz its a cold blooded , sadistic calculus to break the morale of the resistance to Indian colonial rule.

    Not only are the NE folks trampled on and abused in their own land by the Indian occupation armies, when they go to the indian heartland to tudy or work they are also marked for violence and sex crimes.
    Why ?
    cuz they look different from the heartlanders, who call the NE folks 'chinkie terrorists'.
    'chinkie' cuz NE folks are Chinese/Mongoliod people while Indians are Dravidians./Aryans.
    'terrorists' cuz they have been fighting against the Indian occupation army since 1947.

    So how did the 'seven sisters' landed in the Indian map in the first place ?
    Not only are the people there simply dont belong, even the land look like a sore thumb sticking out of the indian land mass on a map !

    When the Brits granted Indian independence, all the 'seven sisters' also declared their own independence.
    Alas, Nehru reponse by sending in a massive army to invade the seven regions, including those who werent even in the British Raj . !
    Delhi even boasted that 'there'd be one jawan for every tree in Nagaland' !
    What followed was decades of genocidal wars which wiped out hundreds of thousands of NE people, devasted most of their pristine land, mass rapes of untold savagery.

    Ivan'
    'There is absolutely no reason for India to respect the shibboleths of the then British Empire in disposing of the territory of historical India.'

    Indeed !
    You've certainly out done your Brit mentors in empire building
    .
    In your own back yard at least.
    With the rapacious murkkan empire as your mentor now, Who know, perhaps the sky is the limit from now on.
    hehehhehe

    Indian media make a hue and cry over the almost daily sexual crimes in Delhi etc, in fact those are like child's play compared to the untold atrocities committed by the Indian state against the 'seven sisters' and Kashmir.

    You call yourself a christian and humanist, what've you done to oppose Delhi state terrorism against its 'own people', other than blaming it all on the 'chicoms' ?
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  • @Wizard of Oz
    Don't be hard on him even if he is rude. He's only a Middle East expert after all - and only self-described as expert in anything. BTW did you notice Mr Singh's extraordinary reported statement that Hindi was like the elder sister of all Indian languages being the closest relation to the mother of them all, Sanskrit? Codswallop! Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam and Kannada of the Dravidian south are in a completely different non Aryan (Indo-European) language group.

    While mediocre in two South Indian languages myself, Hindi itself – like another bastard language of many fathers, English – is considered impure by some sectors, since it has numerous importations and aliterations from of all things, the Urdu type of languages. The languages of the hated Muslim invaders! So much for the language bigots, and their claim of nativeness.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Oops! Google "are hindi and urdu the same language?" and you will understand what questions your comment has prompted.
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  • @Wizard of Oz
    Interesting connection between Kashmir and Pakidtan's intended provocations. However I question your figures for the percentage of religious minorities in Pakistan in 1947 and now because you don't take notice of the recreation of East Pakistan as the separate nation of Bangladesh several decades ago.

    Boss I was too lazy.

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  • @bunga
    1 " That river had to be crossed, and I am glad it was crossed. Today Ayodhya is a non-issue, and far as the rest of us are concerned, the RSS can build their mandir a mile high. But then there is not much energy behind this since a lot of money is involve"

    It is a non issue in some fiction enriched mind This issue shows up every time there is election Right now this canard is raising it's head again with fanatic Hindu outfit asking Muslim to elave or get converted


    By your own logic ( Ayodhya is a non-issue) may be the entire past on which BJP credo is based should be non issue as well.


    2 "They seem to have had no sense of irony, since in Bombay the same kind of religious Muslims burned Salman Rushdie’s ‘Satanic Verses’ for insulting their scriptures."

    Yes how many books have been banned How many writers been banished How many artists have been banished by Indian gov ? How many moves been stopped from being screened ?


    India gives the anti Muslim writer from Bangladesh home but bans the entry of the Indian artists born in India because of depiction of Hindu god in his art works

    India has banned book on Hinduism and has banned entry of those writers , has also prevented screening of films . India by banning Rushdie book has been following its tradition of book banning and public burning of book

    The BJP has brought up Ayodhya again for the UP state elections, but it seems that almost all the Hindus there don’t give a hill of beans for this. Pavlovian conditioning is subject to diminishing returns. The average Indian is a sturdy bourgeois, and would rather have something in his pocket instead. Modi fooled a lot of people, there and and elsewhere, by promising the moon. Most people would rather see the Rs 15 lakhs (around $20,000 ) that he promised in the national elections. Failing that they have to come up with at least free smartphones or tablets. The electorate will milk the parties for all the electoral baksheesh it is worth.

    In this election the Congress seems to have taken the high road of not pandering to religious minorities, here the Muslims. I have always wished that they refuse to appeal to to sectarian interests in order to maintain their old status as the leading secular party of the Republic of India.

    India is facing many years of very low, job generating capacity, and this I believe will see the BJP out in the next country wide elections.

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  • @bunga
    1 In his Karamyog (2007), Modi writes that those castes fated to do sanitation work (clean gutters, sweep houses and cart away refuse), such as the Balmikis, do so as an “experience in spirituality.” “I do not believe that they have been doing this job just to sustain their livelihood,” says Modi, who anoints them to this despicable work because it is their “duty to work for the happiness of the entire society.” Subhash Gatade, who edits Sandhan, points out that when confronted by Modi’s logic a leading Dalit poet asked, “Why didn’t it occur to Modi that the spirituality involved in doing menial jobs hasn’t ever been experienced by the upper castes?” http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/11/on-the-wings-of-intolerance/


    2 S Swamy " wrote a newspaper article after a series of militant attacks in Mumbai. The article called for the demolition of 300 mosques, some built over temples, and argued that Muslims should be barred from voting in India unless they acknowledged their Hindu ancestry. The article led Harvard’s faculty to cancel his summer course offerings.

    Mr. Swamy, in an interview, was unapologetic about the article and restated his theory of Muslims in India being descended from Hindus. He added that he wished the Harvard faculty had at least given him a chance to make his case before canceling his courses.

    Few who know him say they believe he is really anti-Muslim, suggesting that his comments are aimed at building a support base among Hindu nationalists. “Swamy is a closet secularist,” Mr. Nalapat said"


    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/02/world/asia/india-subramanian-swamy.html?_r=0


    Where was Swamy when BJP was rampaging across Northern India starting from 1987 ?

    The BJP outfits carry out massacre and then claim it was in response to some muslim activities or Moghul's actions from the past. That past is also preached and spread by the same BJP outfits. But the kicker is in the admission= He is building support among the Hindus !!! Next time someone will decide as Modi decided to ratchet up the pressure and kill the Muslims and the Dalits and Christian in large number - to build the base among the Hindus .

    Subramaniam Swamy is the Zhirinovsky of India. The man seems to have the same issues that plague the educated Brahmin, leading to an inability to keep his mouth shut. He clearly is not a political animal, since he has made himself highly unpopular in his home state of Tamil Nadu, by his remarks on fellow Tamils wanting to carry on their ‘Jallikattu’ or bull wrangling tradition. His observations that they are low-life hoodlums didn’t go down well back home.

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  • @Zenarchy
    Most Hindus I know that vote BJP despise Modi for the ignorant low-caste retard that he is, yet still vote for his party because the alternative has been absolutely atrocious in their economic policies, horribly corrupt and much more (affirmative action for Muslims).

    Then there are various forms of "nationalists" - ranging from those who were brainwashed with regular patriotism to those who adhere to Hindutva. Even there, most are moderate and only want Christians to stop converting Hindus and Muslims to stop breeding as much as they do and stop supporting Pakistan. Proper fascists are there as well, but less dominant as many think. In the South, they are often/usually more anti-Christian than anti-Muslim because of massive proselytization efforts of Christian groups.

    You have to understand something as well.
    Traditional Hinduism is the most liberal of all religions:
    - gays and trannies (hijras) have always existed without being banned, but are banned now because of Christian (Victorian) fundamentalism of the erstwhile genocidal masters from Britain
    - weed was always legal, and even alcohol - the drug of the low-caste meat-eaters - was merely frowned upon. (In Hinduism the backward castes who eat meat and drink alcohol are only frowned upon, not assailed)
    - non-mainstream philosophies have not been actively prosecuted
    - Indians are a mix of very diverse races (from Slavic to Australoid), so racism only applied to having fair skin as a proof you come from castes that don't do manual labor.

    Another thing: the most brutal invaders of India were the Catholic Portuguese, it's just that their numbers were to tiny for a gigantic genocide. Read for example of how they arrived to Kerala.

    But yeah, Muslims and Christians have gotten a too good ride for some time.

    Too bad that you couldn’t do anything much about us, but let us know where you live and we’ll see if you can live up to your mouth.

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    • Replies: @Zenarchy
    I usually explain to Hindus that the forced conversions aren't coming from "Christians", but from particular Christian groups, and that in Goa, Christians are actually gradually diminishing in numbers. They make the same mistake as the people who equate Islam with Salafism.
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  • @DanC
    To paraphrase that old saying "People who live by the sword shall die by the sword," and nowhere is this more true than in India.

    It's hard for us Americans to imagine a country where grievances a thousand years old are still being redressed and fought out, but the Indians are still experiencing aftershocks from the Moghul invasions.

    The Moghuls made modern genocidists look like amateurs.

    Not the Germans, the Soviets, even Mao himself at 60 million could come close to the numbers the Moghuls achieved. 200 million deaths is the approximate number people have calculated from the records.

    The Moghuls didn't waste time on things like transporting people to camps or prisons and then killing them, or slaughtering them with weapons onsite and throwing them in in mass graves. A favorite way of intimidating kingdoms they were invading to submit was to choose a town of a size easy to surround, say 10,,000 to 50,000 people, trap everyone inside and burn the town to the ground with everyone in it.

    The invasions radically changed hinduism from the peacable, philosophical religions that spawned Buddhism, to a hardened, radicalized, fundamentalist creed that underlies the Hindu nationalist movements today.

    And it persisted: just read about the Muslim depradations of the Hindu serf population in Hyderabad princely state during the Indian independence struggles.

    The Hindus originated that famous concept of Karma, and it has mutated into a real bitch!

    Karma is coming for you, Moghuls!

    And then of course, the violent Hindu nationalists shall in their turn suffer their own violent retribution. But that's for a century other than our own.

    Moghuls were descended from the Mongols. They were equal opportunity slaughterers. Mongols have that kind of reputation but they were also businessmen after a fashion. Why would they want to kill all that people that they needed to work the fields after the spate of conquests. They had to have the goods and taxes. The Muslim rulers were not stupid, conversion to Islam meant that the erstwhile dhimmi could not be taxed, his daughters could not be taken. Hence it was in the interest of the Muslim ruling class that rhetoric aside, fewer than necessary Hindus converted. It made good economic sense to tax farm instead.

    The overwhelming majority of Muslims in India are converts, voluntary in the sense that when the village headman converted they converted along with him. They seem to have done it for reasons of economics and to escape the oppression of the upper castes. The average Muslim in India is a dusky fellow, he doesn’t look like Shah Rukh Khan by a long shot.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Thanks for confirming my modestly held views and knowledge.
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  • @Ram
    The Hindus had suffered 600 million deaths directly because of Muslim rule as reported recently. It is obviously not Hindu paranoia.

    Why stop at 600 million? Round it up to a billion just for the heck of it. The entire population of the Earth at the end of the 19th century was about a billion plus. What fraction of that lived on the sub-continent? And this was during the Raj, extrapolate in backwards and one finds that the population could not have been more 200 million at any prior time given the productivity of the land, including that when Muslims were rulers.

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  • Hi Peter Lee,

    The screencap in the article is of L K Advani, another politician. Modi is a more hirsute fellow. Your article has in large measure, captured the truth.

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  • @MEexpert

    Kashmir is disturbed, thanks largely to Pakistan’s efforts, the entire Hindu population was brutally purged from there. Hard to call riots an example of persecution, more like a predictable response to Muslim attacks, and it was followed by more.
     
    I don't know who you are and where you are getting this information. Apparently, you don't know anything about the history of India and its partition. Kashmir is an occupied territory by India just like Palestine is an occupied territory by Israel. The Muslims in Kashmir are treated the same way as the Palestinian by Israel. Oppressed people have no other recourse but to demonstrate against the cruel behavior of the oppressors.

    Kashmir is a disputed territory. Under the rules for the partition Kashmir was supposed to be a part of Pakistan. It has many more similarities to Palestine. Just as Palestine was gifted to Jews, Kashmir was gifted to India by Lord Mountbatten as well for the past services to the British Raj by the Maharajah and all attempts by the Kashmiris to gain independence from India have been brutally suppressed by the Indian government.

    Hard to call riots an example of persecution, more like a predictable response to Muslim attacks, and it was followed by more.
     
    This statement doesn't even make sense. You have it backward. It is the Muslims who are being attacked by the Indian military.

    Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and Maldives are part and parcel of the Indian Subcontinent not the Arabian Peninsula… Islam was an unwelcomed import and its toxic effects are still felt to this day but a time is fast approaching when all scores will be settled. On the eve of the Partition of the Subcontinent, Hindus, Sikhs & Muslims gave a primer on what the mother of all civil war is going to look like by killing each other to the tune of one million in a month… And they did it with crude, hand made weapons. Either Islam will kill India or it’ll its final resting place!

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  • @DB Cooper
    Massive human rights violation in India is not new. It has been going on for years. The victims of the 2002 Gujarat massacre by the Hindutva thugs are still waiting for their justice.

    People blame it on the Muslims in India and I see a lot of Indians exploit this bigotry to hide the systematic oppression of the Muslims. Actually what it shows is that Hindu can be just as violent as other people.

    India is one of those country most people get it wrong out of ignorance. Once the country was created it continue the expansionist policy of the Raj including the invading and annexing of its neighbors land. Fifteen years before Saddam Hussein row his columns of tanks into Kuwait city and annexed Kuwait, India row its column of trucks into Gangtok and annexed the Himalayan kingdom of Sikkim, and occupy it to this day. It never tired of reminding the British of their sins of colonialism yet it sees itself as the new colonial power in the bloc including the heavy meddling and bullying of its neighbors. One of the first thing India did was to resign a series of unequal treaties the British Raj had with its neighbors, making clear to its neighbors that India is the new imperial power in the block.

    India is a failed state but is obssessed to be seen as a superpower. Resource that can be used to greatly improve the lives of its people are squandered on vanity projects. Today it is the space program. In 1957 it is the purchasing of a used aircraft carrier from Britain.

    You are right about most people getting India wrong out of ignorance… You are a perfect example of it. To understand the land of the Dharma you would have to go through several birth and death cycles but then again as an untouchable, that is to say an outsider, you would not get the opportunity, not that you would want it as a man of the West. India has its own compulsion as to why they have built in hatred of Islam and its countless Hindu converts whose loyalty is to the Ummah first and to the nation second. You are afflicted with jaundice, thus you will view India and Hinduism in yellow color and not the correct shade saffron!

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  • @Agent76
    Oct 1, 2016 That time I went to the Pentagon and told them to cease and desist

    https://youtu.be/XQ0463ZMuJo

    Were you there?

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  • @Zenarchy
    Most Hindus I know that vote BJP despise Modi for the ignorant low-caste retard that he is, yet still vote for his party because the alternative has been absolutely atrocious in their economic policies, horribly corrupt and much more (affirmative action for Muslims).

    Then there are various forms of "nationalists" - ranging from those who were brainwashed with regular patriotism to those who adhere to Hindutva. Even there, most are moderate and only want Christians to stop converting Hindus and Muslims to stop breeding as much as they do and stop supporting Pakistan. Proper fascists are there as well, but less dominant as many think. In the South, they are often/usually more anti-Christian than anti-Muslim because of massive proselytization efforts of Christian groups.

    You have to understand something as well.
    Traditional Hinduism is the most liberal of all religions:
    - gays and trannies (hijras) have always existed without being banned, but are banned now because of Christian (Victorian) fundamentalism of the erstwhile genocidal masters from Britain
    - weed was always legal, and even alcohol - the drug of the low-caste meat-eaters - was merely frowned upon. (In Hinduism the backward castes who eat meat and drink alcohol are only frowned upon, not assailed)
    - non-mainstream philosophies have not been actively prosecuted
    - Indians are a mix of very diverse races (from Slavic to Australoid), so racism only applied to having fair skin as a proof you come from castes that don't do manual labor.

    Another thing: the most brutal invaders of India were the Catholic Portuguese, it's just that their numbers were to tiny for a gigantic genocide. Read for example of how they arrived to Kerala.

    But yeah, Muslims and Christians have gotten a too good ride for some time.

    You write as though you know more about India than the casually interested educated non-Indian and then…

    “erstwhile genocidal masters from Britain”

    That’s at best Humpty Dumpty talk (as in Alice in Wonderland) but suggests madness. In decades of discussion with Indian friends I have never heard it suggested that the tiny corps of Brits who managed to rule India through Indian agents, civil servants, soldiers and employees were genocidal in either intent or effect. Even the modern cant use of the term by which some have suggested that Protectors of Aborigines, missionaries and social workers were engaged in cultural genocide seems remote from the activities of the East India Company and the later governmental types who tried to stop widow burning. So what’s your evidence for whatever you mean by “genocidal”?

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    • Replies: @Zenarchy
    Probably not the best word, I admit.

    Genocidal not in deliberately killing Indians, but in the sense of not caring whether millions died from hunger due to pressuring them to grow opium poppy instead of food, while at the same time raising taxes from 10 percent to 50 percent. It's like some of Stalin's actions, which are only partially genocide in the conventional sense.

    The Great Bengali famine would be a good place to start a research:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Bengal_famine_of_1770

    "In the first years of the rule of the British East India Company, the total land tax income was doubled and most of this revenue flowed out of the country.[10] As the famine approached its height in April 1770, the Company announced that the land tax for the following year was to be increased by a further 10 percent.
    Sushil Chaudhury writes that the destruction of food crops in Bengal to make way for opium poppy cultivation for export reduced food availability and contributed to the famine.[11] The company is also criticised for ordering the farmers to plant indigo instead of rice, as well as forbidding the "hoarding" of rice. This prevented traders and dealers from laying in reserves that in other times would have tided the population over lean periods.
    By the time of the famine, monopolies in grain trading had been established by the company and its agents. The company had no plan for dealing with the grain shortage, and actions were only taken insofar as they affected the mercantile and trading classes."
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  • @Agent76
    "Who controls the issuance of money controls the government!" Nathan Meyer Rothschild

    June 13, 2016 Which Corporations Control The World?

    A surprisingly small number of corporations control massive global market shares. How many of the brands below do you use?

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article44864.htm

    Wrong Rothschild for a made up (in 1935) quote. The only thing it lends to your comment is the flavour of anti-Semitism by insinuation.

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  • To all the murkkans who support india’s genocides on Muslims cuz
    Islam is always dangerous and subversive.’

    By now everybody and his dog ought to know who’r behind all those ‘radical islam jihadists’ , AQ, BOKO HARM, AL SHABAAB and its latest iteration, the ISIS.
    Thats right, its your very own CIA./RAW/MI6/MOSSAD.
    So berating the ‘chicoms’, ‘pakis’, ‘moslems’ is like barking up the wrong tree, !
    More like Robber crying robbery actually !

    Here’s a challenge,
    Do you have the cojones to do an ‘occupy langley’, aka ‘Terror Inc‘ ??

    Hey presto !
    No more ‘moslem terrorism’ ,result guaranteed.

    Not holding my breath,
    hehehehehe

    Then what about the genocides in Nagaland/Assam/Manipur ……. ?
    Those are christians./Hindus./…..
    Ivan , you call yourself a Catholic ?
    Where’r you when the dreaded Assam Rifles did those unspeakable things to the Christian girls in Naga,
    Oh I see, you were busy blaming the ‘chicoms‘ ?

    Or the genocide on the indigenuous indians ?
    Not the Apache, kid ,
    I mean the Adivasi. !

    or the genocide on the Sikhs ?

    Are those all ‘islamo terrorists‘ ?

    Spare us all these god damned Islamophobia !

    India is a fascist hell hole alright….just like its murkkan soul mate the unitedsnake.

    The proof is right here in the comments, Indians/murkkans embraced in an orgy of fascistic revelry.

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    • Replies: @Ivan
    denk, my insane Chicom friend, I am the last person to defend casual brutality. Some decades ago I heard from a friend who travelled in Nagaland, that a man came up to him and told him that he was raped by an Indian soldier. My friend was rather shocked by this, and I don't see any reason for any man to claim this most cruel of assaults on his own dignity, unless it is true.
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  • @Zenarchy
    Most Hindus I know that vote BJP despise Modi for the ignorant low-caste retard that he is, yet still vote for his party because the alternative has been absolutely atrocious in their economic policies, horribly corrupt and much more (affirmative action for Muslims).

    Then there are various forms of "nationalists" - ranging from those who were brainwashed with regular patriotism to those who adhere to Hindutva. Even there, most are moderate and only want Christians to stop converting Hindus and Muslims to stop breeding as much as they do and stop supporting Pakistan. Proper fascists are there as well, but less dominant as many think. In the South, they are often/usually more anti-Christian than anti-Muslim because of massive proselytization efforts of Christian groups.

    You have to understand something as well.
    Traditional Hinduism is the most liberal of all religions:
    - gays and trannies (hijras) have always existed without being banned, but are banned now because of Christian (Victorian) fundamentalism of the erstwhile genocidal masters from Britain
    - weed was always legal, and even alcohol - the drug of the low-caste meat-eaters - was merely frowned upon. (In Hinduism the backward castes who eat meat and drink alcohol are only frowned upon, not assailed)
    - non-mainstream philosophies have not been actively prosecuted
    - Indians are a mix of very diverse races (from Slavic to Australoid), so racism only applied to having fair skin as a proof you come from castes that don't do manual labor.

    Another thing: the most brutal invaders of India were the Catholic Portuguese, it's just that their numbers were to tiny for a gigantic genocide. Read for example of how they arrived to Kerala.

    But yeah, Muslims and Christians have gotten a too good ride for some time.

    @the most brutal invaders of India were the Catholic Portuguese

    This is a little tribute paid to the politically correct (so antifascist) meme that Christianity was the evilest colonial oppressor of ‘native’ peoples.
    The skirmishes with local population around the trading depots established in Kerala (with the permission of the local authorities) can hardly be called an invasion at all. The conversion of some local to Catholicism was not done through the methods of the Muslims. In fact, their converting efforts were directed at the local ‘Syrian’ Christians who were there since Saint Thomas.
    Not even the British expansion in India had the goal of converting the local populations. Commercial interests came first. The East India Company was little interested in proselytism.
    But, economic exploitations aside, the British rule came somewhat as a relief to India’s non-Muslims. V.S. Naipaul wrote in his book ‘Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions among the Converted Peoples’: ‘The British period—two hundred years in some places, less than a hundred years in others—was a time of Hindu regeneration’. For them, returning to dhimmitude under the Islamic yoke once again was clearly a less attractive choice.

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    • Replies: @Zenarchy
    The massacre in Kerala was one of the most brutal ones, but let's leave that aside. You have a point there.

    But you should acknowledge that the Portuguese did not allow anyone to remain in Goa who did not convert to catholicism. Please google it yourself (too busy right now). If I am wrong, do correct me...
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  • @Marcus
    No it is not. It is the lingua franca and a an official language of government http://m.hindustantimes.com/bhopal/hindi-not-made-national-language-due-to-political-compulsions/story-Cgb00ErRm9vKmFykmjXeNO.html

    Don’t be hard on him even if he is rude. He’s only a Middle East expert after all – and only self-described as expert in anything. BTW did you notice Mr Singh’s extraordinary reported statement that Hindi was like the elder sister of all Indian languages being the closest relation to the mother of them all, Sanskrit? Codswallop! Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam and Kannada of the Dravidian south are in a completely different non Aryan (Indo-European) language group.

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    • Replies: @Ivan
    While mediocre in two South Indian languages myself, Hindi itself - like another bastard language of many fathers, English - is considered impure by some sectors, since it has numerous importations and aliterations from of all things, the Urdu type of languages. The languages of the hated Muslim invaders! So much for the language bigots, and their claim of nativeness.
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  • @Ivan
    As Marcus wrote below Hindu Pandits were driven out from Kashmir by terrorism sponsored from Pakistan. The number of those who fled is around 300,000. The BJP took up their cause and I say good on them.

    Kashmir is the only state in India with a Muslim majority, nonetheless it is a small population. The majority of Muslims about 200 million of them live in the rest of India side by side with Hindus. If Kashmir slips from India's hands, the safety of Muslims in India will be in jeopardy from understandably enraged Hindus. This has been the long term strategy of Pakistan, to make India unliveable for Muslims, in order to make India ungovernable. In this they are ably supported by their 'all-weather' friend and paragon of protector of minority rights, the Chicoms.

    At independence Hindus, Christians and Sikhs formed about 15-17% of Pakistan's population. What is that percentage now? It is in single digits, with among other things no safety for the females of the population. By contrast, the Muslim population in what became modern India was about 18% and if anything has slightly increased in proportion.

    Interesting connection between Kashmir and Pakidtan’s intended provocations. However I question your figures for the percentage of religious minorities in Pakistan in 1947 and now because you don’t take notice of the recreation of East Pakistan as the separate nation of Bangladesh several decades ago.

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    • Replies: @Ivan
    Boss I was too lazy.
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  • The Sangh Parivar acts in response to a real threat. The purges and mass killings of non-Muslims in neighboring Pakistan and Bangladesh have made it very clear that if the Muslims rise to power again in India, it will not be long before they start killing the rest of us.

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  • @Anon
    Diversity sucks.

    India proves it.

    If you keep the expression of the argument to that level of simplicity you could just as well say “diversity works: Australia proves it”.

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  • @Karl
    6 KA > I wonder if Muslim Brotherhood came to power by killing Coptics


    Ask the Copts. There are remnants still around.

    The MB is not big in places where there is any significant amount of Shia to fight back.

    Example: Bahrain

    More than remnants of Copts I think. If there are 40 million in Egypt that’s a hell of a lot of potential refugees….

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  • @Ivan
    The BJP represents a real and large constituency in India. While not quite the 'silent majority', the Hindus who support the BJP were long without a voice in Indian politics. With the arrival of the BJP they have their representation. I see nothing wrong with that in a democracy.

    The Muslims and their supporters in the Congress were needlessly arrogant, and wilfully blind to the importance of the mythic Ayodhya in Hindu consciousness, especially to the Indians in the North. The mosque that was demolished was not being used for worship, and the Muslim religious authorities could have easily arranged to satisfy what I thought were legitimate Hindu demands. Instead a whole parade of excuses were given laced with questions on the authenticity of Hindu scriptures. They seem to have had no sense of irony, since in Bombay the same kind of religious Muslims burned Salman Rushdie's 'Satanic Verses' for insulting their scriptures.

    That river had to be crossed, and I am glad it was crossed. Today Ayodhya is a non-issue, and far as the rest of us are concerned, the RSS can build their mandir a mile high. But then there is not much energy behind this since a lot of money is involved.

    Although I do worry about the extreme elements in the BJP-RSS combine, their tricks are easily called out and Modi prefers to concentrate on the economy so that he can get re-elected and we have the wherewithal to manage the China-Pakistan axis.

    1 ” That river had to be crossed, and I am glad it was crossed. Today Ayodhya is a non-issue, and far as the rest of us are concerned, the RSS can build their mandir a mile high. But then there is not much energy behind this since a lot of money is involve”

    It is a non issue in some fiction enriched mind This issue shows up every time there is election Right now this canard is raising it’s head again with fanatic Hindu outfit asking Muslim to elave or get converted

    By your own logic ( Ayodhya is a non-issue) may be the entire past on which BJP credo is based should be non issue as well.

    2 “They seem to have had no sense of irony, since in Bombay the same kind of religious Muslims burned Salman Rushdie’s ‘Satanic Verses’ for insulting their scriptures.”

    Yes how many books have been banned How many writers been banished How many artists have been banished by Indian gov ? How many moves been stopped from being screened ?

    India gives the anti Muslim writer from Bangladesh home but bans the entry of the Indian artists born in India because of depiction of Hindu god in his art works

    India has banned book on Hinduism and has banned entry of those writers , has also prevented screening of films . India by banning Rushdie book has been following its tradition of book banning and public burning of book

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    • Replies: @Ivan
    The BJP has brought up Ayodhya again for the UP state elections, but it seems that almost all the Hindus there don't give a hill of beans for this. Pavlovian conditioning is subject to diminishing returns. The average Indian is a sturdy bourgeois, and would rather have something in his pocket instead. Modi fooled a lot of people, there and and elsewhere, by promising the moon. Most people would rather see the Rs 15 lakhs (around $20,000 ) that he promised in the national elections. Failing that they have to come up with at least free smartphones or tablets. The electorate will milk the parties for all the electoral baksheesh it is worth.

    In this election the Congress seems to have taken the high road of not pandering to religious minorities, here the Muslims. I have always wished that they refuse to appeal to to sectarian interests in order to maintain their old status as the leading secular party of the Republic of India.

    India is facing many years of very low, job generating capacity, and this I believe will see the BJP out in the next country wide elections.
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  • Oct 1, 2016 That time I went to the Pentagon and told them to cease and desist

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    • Replies: @RobinG
    Were you there?
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  • @Zenarchy
    Most Hindus I know that vote BJP despise Modi for the ignorant low-caste retard that he is, yet still vote for his party because the alternative has been absolutely atrocious in their economic policies, horribly corrupt and much more (affirmative action for Muslims).

    Then there are various forms of "nationalists" - ranging from those who were brainwashed with regular patriotism to those who adhere to Hindutva. Even there, most are moderate and only want Christians to stop converting Hindus and Muslims to stop breeding as much as they do and stop supporting Pakistan. Proper fascists are there as well, but less dominant as many think. In the South, they are often/usually more anti-Christian than anti-Muslim because of massive proselytization efforts of Christian groups.

    You have to understand something as well.
    Traditional Hinduism is the most liberal of all religions:
    - gays and trannies (hijras) have always existed without being banned, but are banned now because of Christian (Victorian) fundamentalism of the erstwhile genocidal masters from Britain
    - weed was always legal, and even alcohol - the drug of the low-caste meat-eaters - was merely frowned upon. (In Hinduism the backward castes who eat meat and drink alcohol are only frowned upon, not assailed)
    - non-mainstream philosophies have not been actively prosecuted
    - Indians are a mix of very diverse races (from Slavic to Australoid), so racism only applied to having fair skin as a proof you come from castes that don't do manual labor.

    Another thing: the most brutal invaders of India were the Catholic Portuguese, it's just that their numbers were to tiny for a gigantic genocide. Read for example of how they arrived to Kerala.

    But yeah, Muslims and Christians have gotten a too good ride for some time.

    1 In his Karamyog (2007), Modi writes that those castes fated to do sanitation work (clean gutters, sweep houses and cart away refuse), such as the Balmikis, do so as an “experience in spirituality.” “I do not believe that they have been doing this job just to sustain their livelihood,” says Modi, who anoints them to this despicable work because it is their “duty to work for the happiness of the entire society.” Subhash Gatade, who edits Sandhan, points out that when confronted by Modi’s logic a leading Dalit poet asked, “Why didn’t it occur to Modi that the spirituality involved in doing menial jobs hasn’t ever been experienced by the upper castes?” http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/11/on-the-wings-of-intolerance/

    2 S Swamy ” wrote a newspaper article after a series of militant attacks in Mumbai. The article called for the demolition of 300 mosques, some built over temples, and argued that Muslims should be barred from voting in India unless they acknowledged their Hindu ancestry. The article led Harvard’s faculty to cancel his summer course offerings.

    Mr. Swamy, in an interview, was unapologetic about the article and restated his theory of Muslims in India being descended from Hindus. He added that he wished the Harvard faculty had at least given him a chance to make his case before canceling his courses.

    Few who know him say they believe he is really anti-Muslim, suggesting that his comments are aimed at building a support base among Hindu nationalists. “Swamy is a closet secularist,” Mr. Nalapat said”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/02/world/asia/india-subramanian-swamy.html?_r=0

    Where was Swamy when BJP was rampaging across Northern India starting from 1987 ?

    The BJP outfits carry out massacre and then claim it was in response to some muslim activities or Moghul’s actions from the past. That past is also preached and spread by the same BJP outfits. But the kicker is in the admission= He is building support among the Hindus !!! Next time someone will decide as Modi decided to ratchet up the pressure and kill the Muslims and the Dalits and Christian in large number – to build the base among the Hindus .

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    • Replies: @Ivan
    Subramaniam Swamy is the Zhirinovsky of India. The man seems to have the same issues that plague the educated Brahmin, leading to an inability to keep his mouth shut. He clearly is not a political animal, since he has made himself highly unpopular in his home state of Tamil Nadu, by his remarks on fellow Tamils wanting to carry on their 'Jallikattu' or bull wrangling tradition. His observations that they are low-life hoodlums didn't go down well back home.
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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    Thanks, this is an interesting and useful tidbit.

    Elst can be really dumb and naive sometimes, so be warned.

    On his FB page, he once asked – if it’s compulsory to study the Bhagavad Gita in the Netherlands in the 5th grade, why couldn’t it be so in India?

    He never realized the Gita news was a hoax.

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  • @Zenarchy
    Most Hindus I know that vote BJP despise Modi for the ignorant low-caste retard that he is, yet still vote for his party because the alternative has been absolutely atrocious in their economic policies, horribly corrupt and much more (affirmative action for Muslims).

    Then there are various forms of "nationalists" - ranging from those who were brainwashed with regular patriotism to those who adhere to Hindutva. Even there, most are moderate and only want Christians to stop converting Hindus and Muslims to stop breeding as much as they do and stop supporting Pakistan. Proper fascists are there as well, but less dominant as many think. In the South, they are often/usually more anti-Christian than anti-Muslim because of massive proselytization efforts of Christian groups.

    You have to understand something as well.
    Traditional Hinduism is the most liberal of all religions:
    - gays and trannies (hijras) have always existed without being banned, but are banned now because of Christian (Victorian) fundamentalism of the erstwhile genocidal masters from Britain
    - weed was always legal, and even alcohol - the drug of the low-caste meat-eaters - was merely frowned upon. (In Hinduism the backward castes who eat meat and drink alcohol are only frowned upon, not assailed)
    - non-mainstream philosophies have not been actively prosecuted
    - Indians are a mix of very diverse races (from Slavic to Australoid), so racism only applied to having fair skin as a proof you come from castes that don't do manual labor.

    Another thing: the most brutal invaders of India were the Catholic Portuguese, it's just that their numbers were to tiny for a gigantic genocide. Read for example of how they arrived to Kerala.

    But yeah, Muslims and Christians have gotten a too good ride for some time.

    (affirmative action for Muslims).
    can you cite any data to support this claim ? This is the regular usual trope BJP utters before election causes riot and increases it’s vote counts

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    • Replies: @Zenarchy
    You're right, I now think.

    I'm really busy, so I took mere 5 minutes to google, but it seems true affirmative action was just a bunch of promises from the Congress, and nothing seemed to have materialized out of them.
    My bad.
    For now, at least.
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  • @Anon
    This fellow is a fascist.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSyaBgyDaAs

    Remind me what he has to do with Narendra Modi?

    right, just finished a book on the Falange.

    Punch a fascist and go to liberal/communist heaven, that is , California.

    Primo de Ribera, Antonio Jose…was a romantic …that was his worst crime. Given the communist onslaught of Spain, the Falange and the rests of the Right was essentially correct and Franco’s manipulations of the various forces of the Right, including the Falange, probably steered Spain in the right direction and avoided more hatreds and bloodshed. etc.

    Franco was not a Falangist himself, he was a Catholic traditionalist, etc.

    Now, religious fanaticism should not be confused and folded into the political lexicon. Period.

    There are fanatics in both realms, but…

    The author of this piece needs some instruction in fundamentals. Still, any Spin gets its share of oohs and ahhhs, The F word…that gets attention. The C word, communist, gets a smile from the Subverted. However, despotic orientals miss the point.

    Joe Webb

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  • You miss the point. Our domestic Antifas don’t necessarily want to beat fascists. They want to beat white people. Any not them will do.

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  • Most Hindus I know that vote BJP despise Modi for the ignorant low-caste retard that he is, yet still vote for his party because the alternative has been absolutely atrocious in their economic policies, horribly corrupt and much more (affirmative action for Muslims).

    Then there are various forms of “nationalists” – ranging from those who were brainwashed with regular patriotism to those who adhere to Hindutva. Even there, most are moderate and only want Christians to stop converting Hindus and Muslims to stop breeding as much as they do and stop supporting Pakistan. Proper fascists are there as well, but less dominant as many think. In the South, they are often/usually more anti-Christian than anti-Muslim because of massive proselytization efforts of Christian groups.

    You have to understand something as well.
    Traditional Hinduism is the most liberal of all religions:
    - gays and trannies (hijras) have always existed without being banned, but are banned now because of Christian (Victorian) fundamentalism of the erstwhile genocidal masters from Britain
    - weed was always legal, and even alcohol – the drug of the low-caste meat-eaters – was merely frowned upon. (In Hinduism the backward castes who eat meat and drink alcohol are only frowned upon, not assailed)
    - non-mainstream philosophies have not been actively prosecuted
    - Indians are a mix of very diverse races (from Slavic to Australoid), so racism only applied to having fair skin as a proof you come from castes that don’t do manual labor.

    Another thing: the most brutal invaders of India were the Catholic Portuguese, it’s just that their numbers were to tiny for a gigantic genocide. Read for example of how they arrived to Kerala.

    But yeah, Muslims and Christians have gotten a too good ride for some time.

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    • Replies: @bunga
    (affirmative action for Muslims).
    can you cite any data to support this claim ? This is the regular usual trope BJP utters before election causes riot and increases it's vote counts
    , @bunga
    1 In his Karamyog (2007), Modi writes that those castes fated to do sanitation work (clean gutters, sweep houses and cart away refuse), such as the Balmikis, do so as an “experience in spirituality.” “I do not believe that they have been doing this job just to sustain their livelihood,” says Modi, who anoints them to this despicable work because it is their “duty to work for the happiness of the entire society.” Subhash Gatade, who edits Sandhan, points out that when confronted by Modi’s logic a leading Dalit poet asked, “Why didn’t it occur to Modi that the spirituality involved in doing menial jobs hasn’t ever been experienced by the upper castes?” http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/11/on-the-wings-of-intolerance/


    2 S Swamy " wrote a newspaper article after a series of militant attacks in Mumbai. The article called for the demolition of 300 mosques, some built over temples, and argued that Muslims should be barred from voting in India unless they acknowledged their Hindu ancestry. The article led Harvard’s faculty to cancel his summer course offerings.

    Mr. Swamy, in an interview, was unapologetic about the article and restated his theory of Muslims in India being descended from Hindus. He added that he wished the Harvard faculty had at least given him a chance to make his case before canceling his courses.

    Few who know him say they believe he is really anti-Muslim, suggesting that his comments are aimed at building a support base among Hindu nationalists. “Swamy is a closet secularist,” Mr. Nalapat said"


    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/02/world/asia/india-subramanian-swamy.html?_r=0


    Where was Swamy when BJP was rampaging across Northern India starting from 1987 ?

    The BJP outfits carry out massacre and then claim it was in response to some muslim activities or Moghul's actions from the past. That past is also preached and spread by the same BJP outfits. But the kicker is in the admission= He is building support among the Hindus !!! Next time someone will decide as Modi decided to ratchet up the pressure and kill the Muslims and the Dalits and Christian in large number - to build the base among the Hindus .

    , @Seraphim
    @the most brutal invaders of India were the Catholic Portuguese

    This is a little tribute paid to the politically correct (so antifascist) meme that Christianity was the evilest colonial oppressor of 'native' peoples.
    The skirmishes with local population around the trading depots established in Kerala (with the permission of the local authorities) can hardly be called an invasion at all. The conversion of some local to Catholicism was not done through the methods of the Muslims. In fact, their converting efforts were directed at the local 'Syrian' Christians who were there since Saint Thomas.
    Not even the British expansion in India had the goal of converting the local populations. Commercial interests came first. The East India Company was little interested in proselytism.
    But, economic exploitations aside, the British rule came somewhat as a relief to India’s non-Muslims. V.S. Naipaul wrote in his book 'Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions among the Converted Peoples': ‘The British period—two hundred years in some places, less than a hundred years in others—was a time of Hindu regeneration’. For them, returning to dhimmitude under the Islamic yoke once again was clearly a less attractive choice.

    , @Wizard of Oz
    You write as though you know more about India than the casually interested educated non-Indian and then...

    "erstwhile genocidal masters from Britain"

    That's at best Humpty Dumpty talk (as in Alice in Wonderland) but suggests madness. In decades of discussion with Indian friends I have never heard it suggested that the tiny corps of Brits who managed to rule India through Indian agents, civil servants, soldiers and employees were genocidal in either intent or effect. Even the modern cant use of the term by which some have suggested that Protectors of Aborigines, missionaries and social workers were engaged in cultural genocide seems remote from the activities of the East India Company and the later governmental types who tried to stop widow burning. So what's your evidence for whatever you mean by "genocidal"?

    , @Ivan
    Too bad that you couldn't do anything much about us, but let us know where you live and we'll see if you can live up to your mouth.
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  • To paraphrase that old saying “People who live by the sword shall die by the sword,” and nowhere is this more true than in India.

    It’s hard for us Americans to imagine a country where grievances a thousand years old are still being redressed and fought out, but the Indians are still experiencing aftershocks from the Moghul invasions.

    The Moghuls made modern genocidists look like amateurs.

    Not the Germans, the Soviets, even Mao himself at 60 million could come close to the numbers the Moghuls achieved. 200 million deaths is the approximate number people have calculated from the records.

    The Moghuls didn’t waste time on things like transporting people to camps or prisons and then killing them, or slaughtering them with weapons onsite and throwing them in in mass graves. A favorite way of intimidating kingdoms they were invading to submit was to choose a town of a size easy to surround, say 10,,000 to 50,000 people, trap everyone inside and burn the town to the ground with everyone in it.

    The invasions radically changed hinduism from the peacable, philosophical religions that spawned Buddhism, to a hardened, radicalized, fundamentalist creed that underlies the Hindu nationalist movements today.

    And it persisted: just read about the Muslim depradations of the Hindu serf population in Hyderabad princely state during the Indian independence struggles.

    The Hindus originated that famous concept of Karma, and it has mutated into a real bitch!

    Karma is coming for you, Moghuls!

    And then of course, the violent Hindu nationalists shall in their turn suffer their own violent retribution. But that’s for a century other than our own.

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    • Replies: @Ivan
    Moghuls were descended from the Mongols. They were equal opportunity slaughterers. Mongols have that kind of reputation but they were also businessmen after a fashion. Why would they want to kill all that people that they needed to work the fields after the spate of conquests. They had to have the goods and taxes. The Muslim rulers were not stupid, conversion to Islam meant that the erstwhile dhimmi could not be taxed, his daughters could not be taken. Hence it was in the interest of the Muslim ruling class that rhetoric aside, fewer than necessary Hindus converted. It made good economic sense to tax farm instead.

    The overwhelming majority of Muslims in India are converts, voluntary in the sense that when the village headman converted they converted along with him. They seem to have done it for reasons of economics and to escape the oppression of the upper castes. The average Muslim in India is a dusky fellow, he doesn't look like Shah Rukh Khan by a long shot.
    , @raphee
    And where do I read this. Please give a source other than an Indian author.
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  • “Who controls the issuance of money controls the government!” Nathan Meyer Rothschild

    June 13, 2016 Which Corporations Control The World?

    A surprisingly small number of corporations control massive global market shares. How many of the brands below do you use?

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article44864.htm

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Wrong Rothschild for a made up (in 1935) quote. The only thing it lends to your comment is the flavour of anti-Semitism by insinuation.
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  • November 21st, 2015 Fascists Running America Endorse Nazism

    America didn’t eliminate the scourge of fascism in WW II. It shifted its headquarters from Berlin and Tokyo to Washington.

    http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2015/11/21/fascists-running-america-endorse-nazism#more40892

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  • Obviously Europe does not have the balls to counteract Islam. Seems the Hindus do, so good for them. Any people or group that acts against Islam is fine by me. Islam is always dangerous and subversive. This all goes back to their false prophet who racked up thousands of kills in his lifetime. This is why Islamic preachers have success in Europe prisons.

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  • So should Hindus allow the fifth column of Islam to rise within its nations? Muslims at time of partition were 10% of India, now they have multiplied themselves to 20% at break(somebodypart) speeds and would’ve soon invariably organised politically. The blaring Islamic calls to prayer would’ve soon followed.

    Tolerance of intolerance is a fool’s errand. India is abutted on both sides by the Islamist states of Pakistan and Bangladesh. I recall the 1971 genocide of indigenous Bangladeshi Hindus of which 300 000 were slaughtered and 8 to 10 million ethnically cleansed, back up the Padma-Ganges. I have not even touched on the Mughal barbarism of Aurangzeb or the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits and Hindus, Jews, Sikhs, Christians and Parsis of Pakistan. BJP is just intent on not seeing Hindu India fall prey to yet more Islamic barbarism.

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  • The Hindus had suffered 600 million deaths directly because of Muslim rule as reported recently. It is obviously not Hindu paranoia.

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    • Replies: @Ivan
    Why stop at 600 million? Round it up to a billion just for the heck of it. The entire population of the Earth at the end of the 19th century was about a billion plus. What fraction of that lived on the sub-continent? And this was during the Raj, extrapolate in backwards and one finds that the population could not have been more 200 million at any prior time given the productivity of the land, including that when Muslims were rulers.
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  • Perhaps you could add a sentence or two about the invasion of “India” by Mohammedans and how many Hindus were killed in that invasion.
    - http://tarekfatah.com/the-muslim-conquest-of-india-from-will-durants-classic-11-volume-story-of-civilization-2/

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  • @Marcus
    I wouldn't take anything Lee says seriously. IRL Modi is viewed by Hindu nationalists the way Putin is by Russian nationalists.
    http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2016/11/the-modi-government-as-exponent-of-bjp.html

    Thanks, this is an interesting and useful tidbit.

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    • Replies: @Zenarchy
    Elst can be really dumb and naive sometimes, so be warned.

    On his FB page, he once asked - if it's compulsory to study the Bhagavad Gita in the Netherlands in the 5th grade, why couldn't it be so in India?

    He never realized the Gita news was a hoax.
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  • @Anon
    This fellow is a fascist.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSyaBgyDaAs

    Remind me what he has to do with Narendra Modi?

    Is anon a hindu? Wow that would explain alot.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    Thanks, Indian politics is very interesting, and I would like to pay more attention to it.

    “Reconverting” Indian Muslims back to Hinduism—on the grounds that the vast majority of Hindu Muslims are that way only because of forcible conversion to Islam back in the day and should be helped to return to their true religion—is a big deal for the BJP.
     
    Surely, by this standard, Pakistan and really much of the rest of the Muslim world is far more "fascist" than India?

    Since Pakistan exterminated almost all its non-Muslims, clearly it is innocent of Fascism.

    I wonder if the best solution for India and countries in similar straits would be to follow the Saudi example and make the practice of Islam illegal. Of course when doing so the BJP would likely make Christianity illegal too, which seems unnecessary as there is no physical Christian threat to India. Freedom of religion for non-genocidal religions seems like a good idea.

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  • Gee, wonder why I haven’t heard about this plan for conversion-or-else on CNN or BBC. Maybe I missed someting on Fareed Zakaria’s latest global dump on Trump.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    Thanks, Indian politics is very interesting, and I would like to pay more attention to it.

    “Reconverting” Indian Muslims back to Hinduism—on the grounds that the vast majority of Hindu Muslims are that way only because of forcible conversion to Islam back in the day and should be helped to return to their true religion—is a big deal for the BJP.
     
    Surely, by this standard, Pakistan and really much of the rest of the Muslim world is far more "fascist" than India?

    Hindus despise Muslims, Christians and Sikhs on the grounds that they were once low caste scum who converted to raise themselves out of the caste system.

    I’m more interested in the American caste system known as affirmative action preferences. In the USA caste system White hetero American goyim are the lowest caste, unemployable untouchables.

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  • Diversity sucks.

    India proves it.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    If you keep the expression of the argument to that level of simplicity you could just as well say "diversity works: Australia proves it".
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  • @KA
    There was no Mulsim terrorism in India before 1987 when BJP went into rampage . The destruction of Babri Masjid was on their election agenda This changed the political map for them form having 2 seats in Parliament out of 500 to some 200 seats in that election .


    There is no terrorism in Mynamar now But no one in his clear mind will fail to see if a reactionary responses does emanate from the persecuted Muslim in Mynamar , would be an expected reaction .

    I wonder if Muslim Brotherhood came to power by killing Coptics or Shia .

    6 KA > I wonder if Muslim Brotherhood came to power by killing Coptics

    Ask the Copts. There are remnants still around.

    The MB is not big in places where there is any significant amount of Shia to fight back.

    Example: Bahrain

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    More than remnants of Copts I think. If there are 40 million in Egypt that's a hell of a lot of potential refugees....
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  • @Ivan
    There is absolutely no reason for India to respect the shibboleths of the then British Empire in disposing of the territory of historical India. At that time the Hindus were divided and weak. They are much more united now. If Partition were attempted today, Pakistan will be left with much smaller territory. Certainly they will not have the Indus basin. Pakistanis and their supporters ought to be reconciled with history, just as Indians are with theirs.

    ‘There is absolutely no reason for India to respect the shibboleths of the then British Empire in disposing of the territory of historical India.’ [sic]

    Then why do you hang on like dear life to that infamous MCMAHON LINE as the ‘legit’ border bet India/China ?

    you’r not only a fucking moron but a god damned hypocrite to boot !

    hehehehe

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  • Ivan you are a fucking moron,
    blaming the ‘chicoms’ support for every indian separatist movement without the slightest evidence !
    Typical Indian m.o.,
    Robber crying out robbery !

    In any case,

    Did the ‘chicoms’ order the likes of Assam Rifles to shoot at unarmed civilians ?

    or gang rape defenceless teens and grandmas ?

    or commit all those custodian deaths ?

    fake encounters executions ?

    Extra judicial executions ?

    wholesale genocides in Assam, Nagaland, Manipur, Tripura, Kashmir…..?

    http://dissidentvoice.org/2016/06/legalized-tyranny-indias-armed-forces-special-powers-act/

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  • There is absolutely no reason for India to respect the shibboleths of the then British Empire in disposing of the territory of historical India. At that time the Hindus were divided and weak. They are much more united now. If Partition were attempted today, Pakistan will be left with much smaller territory. Certainly they will not have the Indus basin. Pakistanis and their supporters ought to be reconciled with history, just as Indians are with theirs.

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    • Replies: @denk
    'There is absolutely no reason for India to respect the shibboleths of the then British Empire in disposing of the territory of historical India.' [sic]

    Then why do you hang on like dear life to that infamous MCMAHON LINE as the 'legit' border bet India/China ?

    you'r not only a fucking moron but a god damned hypocrite to boot !

    hehehehe
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  • @MEexpert
    Wikipedia is not fact checked. Anybody can write anything on it. Whatever ethnic cleansing was done was done by Hindus.

    The criterion on which the partitioin took place was the ethnic majority. In Kashmir there were more Muslims than non-Muslims and should have gone to Pakistan. But the Maharajah was non-Muslim hence his call for help.

    Then google it ffs, the entire Hindu population was brutally expelled, they had been living there since long before Islam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarnath_Temple
    The maharaja was forced to ask for help because Pakistan preemptively sent tribal savages to Kashmir, otherwise all of Kashmir would be in Pakistan. They made their bed, now they can deal with it. Also the Muslim ruler of mostly non-Muslim Hyderabad tried to avoid joining India against the wishes of his population.

    Read More
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  • @Marcus
    No. Hindus have lived in Kashmir for millennia until the Pakistani backed ethnic cleansing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Kashmiri_Hindus
    Btw all of Kashmir would probably be part of Pakistan if it hadn't decided to preemptively invade, prompting the Kashmiri maharaja to ask for India's assistance.

    Wikipedia is not fact checked. Anybody can write anything on it. Whatever ethnic cleansing was done was done by Hindus.

    The criterion on which the partitioin took place was the ethnic majority. In Kashmir there were more Muslims than non-Muslims and should have gone to Pakistan. But the Maharajah was non-Muslim hence his call for help.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    Then google it ffs, the entire Hindu population was brutally expelled, they had been living there since long before Islam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarnath_Temple
    The maharaja was forced to ask for help because Pakistan preemptively sent tribal savages to Kashmir, otherwise all of Kashmir would be in Pakistan. They made their bed, now they can deal with it. Also the Muslim ruler of mostly non-Muslim Hyderabad tried to avoid joining India against the wishes of his population.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.