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    Within the Democratic Party a progressive guilt trip about how the Israelis have treated the Palestinians has been growing. One recalls how at the 2012 Democratic National Convention in Charlotte a voice vote on including the usual party platform plank affirming that an undivided Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel received many more “nays”...
  • @iffen
    Your heart is in the right place but other aspects of your cognitive apparatus, are letting you down.

    BS, he is an 88. He thinks he is a master of sophistry, but he's not. He has Jews on the Brain Disease and he has only one speed, at least some of the others can think a little. Poor pitiful Palestinians; what a crock.

    Hey Iffen,

    Why don’t you take your stupid 88s comments and just deep six them…..so trite, so trivial, and so evasive.

    Face it…face the truth, Iffen,…That even as I write this comment…Israeli supremacist nationals, who are fast approaching majority status in Israel, want to exterminate every Palestinian “untermenchen” that still lives…and steal all their land…..in EXACTLY the same way…the Nazi’s exterminated the Jews….

    Just acknowledge the reality of it…..face up to it…because its a fascist, freight train “reality” coming straight at you.

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  • @SolontoCroesus
    cogito ergo sum

    The Fixation of Belief

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  • @iffen
    I’m not trained in history either

    Don't say.

    cogito ergo sum

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    The Fixation of Belief
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  • @SolontoCroesus
    here's that Beinart video

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmkmwuDAy90

    http://www.unz.com/article/israels-fifth-column/#comment-876926

    Was this 100% chauvinist Jew crap on PBS?

    Did not view the whole thing, but what I did see, was ZERO concern for America.

    Those people need to move to Israel – clearly that is what they fervently care about.

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  • @SolontoCroesus
    Sam, my posts usually supply links to the sources relied upon; often as not, the sources are by Jewish authors.

    I'm not trained in history either, but it seems to me an obligation for a citizen in a government by the people to do his due diligence and critically analyze the information that forms the foundation of important decisions he makes.

    I think you genuinely believe the boiler-plate narrative you recite: I don't think you've questioned it, because to do so would quake the foundations of your worldview, not to mention your intimate family relationships.
    As you know, Max Blumenthal has taken positions that are somewhat heretical in the Jewish community, but in some video or another in which Max was whacking away at certain Israeli practices, I heard Max drop back and recite, parrot-like, that "6 million Jews were killed by Nazis and that's why Jews need Israel. etc etc etc." Catholics of my generation can still recite the Baltimore Catechism from cover-to-cover -- even if we've long since moved away from that total world view -- and Max's recitation of Jewish holocaust dogma impressed me as the same kind of drilled, over-learned response. Your recitations impress me much the same way.

    It's tough to question notions so intensely reinforced, but I think the Jewish community, especially young Jews, must seek to move beyond a version of history that zionist leaders contrived a hundred years ago.
    A few years ago Mondoweiss posted a video of a conversation featuring Peter Beinart during which a young Jewish woman in the audience said, her voice quavering, "We were lied to." The woman, Dana Karon, explained that she had been raised by zionist parents and attended schools in Israel. Teaching and texts rendered invisible the presence of Palestinians on "Israel's land." She felt abused and betrayed by her elders and teachers.
    What was even more interesting about this video clip (which I'm unable to find right now) was the way an "elder" approached Karon at the end of the conference and worked to turn her around, to weaken her negative statements and maneuver her to reaffirm her belief in the "right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state." She capitulated.
    If young Jews were lied to about the presence of Palestinians, what other lies have they been told?


    NB -- it's not just Jewish young people who owe it to themselves to challenge holocaust dogma. We non-Jewish Americans have not only the right but, in my opinion, the obligation and responsibility to our young people to clamor for a more truthful accounting of the world wars of the 20th century. It is my working hypothesis that Woodrow Wilson and, especially, Franklin Delano Roosevelt led the American people on a foreign policy path that deviates almost diametrically from that laid out by George Washington in his Farewell Address. We've got to get back on the right path.
    If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sH0uR2u7Hs

    I’m not trained in history either

    Don’t say.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    cogito ergo sum
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    Sam, my posts usually supply links to the sources relied upon; often as not, the sources are by Jewish authors.

    I'm not trained in history either, but it seems to me an obligation for a citizen in a government by the people to do his due diligence and critically analyze the information that forms the foundation of important decisions he makes.

    I think you genuinely believe the boiler-plate narrative you recite: I don't think you've questioned it, because to do so would quake the foundations of your worldview, not to mention your intimate family relationships.
    As you know, Max Blumenthal has taken positions that are somewhat heretical in the Jewish community, but in some video or another in which Max was whacking away at certain Israeli practices, I heard Max drop back and recite, parrot-like, that "6 million Jews were killed by Nazis and that's why Jews need Israel. etc etc etc." Catholics of my generation can still recite the Baltimore Catechism from cover-to-cover -- even if we've long since moved away from that total world view -- and Max's recitation of Jewish holocaust dogma impressed me as the same kind of drilled, over-learned response. Your recitations impress me much the same way.

    It's tough to question notions so intensely reinforced, but I think the Jewish community, especially young Jews, must seek to move beyond a version of history that zionist leaders contrived a hundred years ago.
    A few years ago Mondoweiss posted a video of a conversation featuring Peter Beinart during which a young Jewish woman in the audience said, her voice quavering, "We were lied to." The woman, Dana Karon, explained that she had been raised by zionist parents and attended schools in Israel. Teaching and texts rendered invisible the presence of Palestinians on "Israel's land." She felt abused and betrayed by her elders and teachers.
    What was even more interesting about this video clip (which I'm unable to find right now) was the way an "elder" approached Karon at the end of the conference and worked to turn her around, to weaken her negative statements and maneuver her to reaffirm her belief in the "right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state." She capitulated.
    If young Jews were lied to about the presence of Palestinians, what other lies have they been told?


    NB -- it's not just Jewish young people who owe it to themselves to challenge holocaust dogma. We non-Jewish Americans have not only the right but, in my opinion, the obligation and responsibility to our young people to clamor for a more truthful accounting of the world wars of the 20th century. It is my working hypothesis that Woodrow Wilson and, especially, Franklin Delano Roosevelt led the American people on a foreign policy path that deviates almost diametrically from that laid out by George Washington in his Farewell Address. We've got to get back on the right path.
    If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sH0uR2u7Hs

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    Was this 100% chauvinist Jew crap on PBS?

    Did not view the whole thing, but what I did see, was ZERO concern for America.

    Those people need to move to Israel – clearly that is what they fervently care about.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama

    Your response is surprisingly childish, Sam, and also has a boilerplate quality to it — did you cut-and-paste a term paper from your Hebrew day school......
     
    What was childish really? "boilerplate", I will concede, might have some validity, since I myself thought it a bit abrupt an accounting of the proceedings. [stole a half hour from other tasks]. I am not a trained historian as such and plan to read the history of European wars in more detail [I did ask 5371 and others, who certainly are quite knowledgeable in my reckoning for references and I ask you as well]. I have however read economic history. So fairly sanguine about the numbers etc....Well better discourse in the future I hope.

    Your treatment of the Marshall plan etc. evoked too much anger, and I must break off too cool down and attend to life’s chores.
     
    I understand how you feel; taking incessant doses of Jew hatred on UR has only de-sensitised me partially.

    Sam, my posts usually supply links to the sources relied upon; often as not, the sources are by Jewish authors.

    I’m not trained in history either, but it seems to me an obligation for a citizen in a government by the people to do his due diligence and critically analyze the information that forms the foundation of important decisions he makes.

    I think you genuinely believe the boiler-plate narrative you recite: I don’t think you’ve questioned it, because to do so would quake the foundations of your worldview, not to mention your intimate family relationships.
    As you know, Max Blumenthal has taken positions that are somewhat heretical in the Jewish community, but in some video or another in which Max was whacking away at certain Israeli practices, I heard Max drop back and recite, parrot-like, that “6 million Jews were killed by Nazis and that’s why Jews need Israel. etc etc etc.” Catholics of my generation can still recite the Baltimore Catechism from cover-to-cover — even if we’ve long since moved away from that total world view — and Max’s recitation of Jewish holocaust dogma impressed me as the same kind of drilled, over-learned response. Your recitations impress me much the same way.

    It’s tough to question notions so intensely reinforced, but I think the Jewish community, especially young Jews, must seek to move beyond a version of history that zionist leaders contrived a hundred years ago.
    A few years ago Mondoweiss posted a video of a conversation featuring Peter Beinart during which a young Jewish woman in the audience said, her voice quavering, “We were lied to.” The woman, Dana Karon, explained that she had been raised by zionist parents and attended schools in Israel. Teaching and texts rendered invisible the presence of Palestinians on “Israel’s land.” She felt abused and betrayed by her elders and teachers.
    What was even more interesting about this video clip (which I’m unable to find right now) was the way an “elder” approached Karon at the end of the conference and worked to turn her around, to weaken her negative statements and maneuver her to reaffirm her belief in the “right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state.” She capitulated.
    If young Jews were lied to about the presence of Palestinians, what other lies have they been told?

    NB — it’s not just Jewish young people who owe it to themselves to challenge holocaust dogma. We non-Jewish Americans have not only the right but, in my opinion, the obligation and responsibility to our young people to clamor for a more truthful accounting of the world wars of the 20th century. It is my working hypothesis that Woodrow Wilson and, especially, Franklin Delano Roosevelt led the American people on a foreign policy path that deviates almost diametrically from that laid out by George Washington in his Farewell Address. We’ve got to get back on the right path.
    If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    here's that Beinart video

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmkmwuDAy90

    http://www.unz.com/article/israels-fifth-column/#comment-876926
    , @iffen
    I’m not trained in history either

    Don't say.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    Your response is surprisingly childish, Sam, and also has a boilerplate quality to it -- did you cut-and-paste a term paper from your Hebrew day school, or copy the placards from a holocaust museum exhibit?
    -----

    For starters --

    [Shall we] discuss the German economy, from, shall we say Weimar
     
    No, we shall not start with Weimar.

    ~1881 is a more appropriate starting point.

    In one of the first discussions of his then-new book, The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris, David McCullough commented that a proper understanding of the world wars in Europe would have to start with the Franco-Prussian war, or more specifically, the unification of Germany that came about at the outcome of that war.



    Three of the most critical reactions to Prussian victory were the seething resentment of the French and their determination to retake Alsace-Lorraine; heightened wariness on the part of the British at the growing power of German; and a significant migration of Jews from other states in the region to take advantage of the promise of rising prosperity in Germany, a migration which coincided with Haskalah movement as well as a resurgence of the zionist impulse among Eastern European Jews.

    Regarding the French, they come to the fore at Versailles, where French revanchism played a large role in the imposition of outsized reparations on Germany, but Clemenceau's role has been over-emphasized while the role of zionists surrounding Wilson -- and Lloyd George -- has been almost obscured.

    The British lived in fear of German unification for over a century -- similar to the USA's chronic concern over the rise of China. (If USA understood history properly, it could respond more maturely to its inevitable displacement as superpower; that's one reason I insist that deconstructing the holocaust is a moral imperative: the dogmatized and ludicrous narrative distorts history.)
    In 1748 David Hume predicted:

    "Germany is undoubtedly a fine country, full of industrious, honest people, and were it united it would be the greatest power that ever was in the world.”
     
    German unification came to pass in 1871. A decade later, 1881 Benjamin Disraeli observed ---

    [The Franco-Prussian] war represents the German revolution, a greater political event than the French revolution of last century. . . Not a single principle in the management of our foreign affairs, accepted by all statesmen for guidance up to six months ago, any longer exists. There is not a diplomatic tradition which has not been swept away. You have a new world, new influences at work, new and unknown objects and dangers with which to cope. . . We used to have discussions in this House about the balance of power. Lord Palmerston, eminently a practical man, trimmed the ship of State and shaped its policy with a view to preserve an equilibrium in Europe. [ . . . ] But what has really come to pass? The balance of power has been entirely destroyed, and the country which suffers most, and feels the effects of this great change most, is England.
     
    As has been their pattern in much of their history, Jews migrated to the place that promised new prosperity. Jews had lived in and among Germans for over a thousand years, but this new influx of Jews brought with it disturbing practices, most notably, offers of expansive credit together with usurious but secured interest that resulted in many, many native Germans losing their homes, farms, businesses and livelihoods to predatory lenders. An 1881 article in the Eclectic magazine complained that newly-arrived Jews claimed for themselves the benefits of the sacrifices the German people had made in setting up the institutions to achieve victory over France, and unification of Germany.

    In other words, by 1919, and certainly by the time of the Dawes plan, and of those extraordinary offers of the Americans and others to extend loans to Germany, in exchange for their gold, the German people already had a long and painful memory of dealing with generous lenders, and they wanted no part of it. Autonomy and sovereignty trump almost every other communal demand.

    Your treatment of the Marshall plan etc. evoked too much anger, and I must break off too cool down and attend to life's chores.

    Later.

    Your response is surprisingly childish, Sam, and also has a boilerplate quality to it — did you cut-and-paste a term paper from your Hebrew day school……

    What was childish really? “boilerplate”, I will concede, might have some validity, since I myself thought it a bit abrupt an accounting of the proceedings. [stole a half hour from other tasks]. I am not a trained historian as such and plan to read the history of European wars in more detail [I did ask 5371 and others, who certainly are quite knowledgeable in my reckoning for references and I ask you as well]. I have however read economic history. So fairly sanguine about the numbers etc….Well better discourse in the future I hope.

    Your treatment of the Marshall plan etc. evoked too much anger, and I must break off too cool down and attend to life’s chores.

    I understand how you feel; taking incessant doses of Jew hatred on UR has only de-sensitised me partially.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Sam, my posts usually supply links to the sources relied upon; often as not, the sources are by Jewish authors.

    I'm not trained in history either, but it seems to me an obligation for a citizen in a government by the people to do his due diligence and critically analyze the information that forms the foundation of important decisions he makes.

    I think you genuinely believe the boiler-plate narrative you recite: I don't think you've questioned it, because to do so would quake the foundations of your worldview, not to mention your intimate family relationships.
    As you know, Max Blumenthal has taken positions that are somewhat heretical in the Jewish community, but in some video or another in which Max was whacking away at certain Israeli practices, I heard Max drop back and recite, parrot-like, that "6 million Jews were killed by Nazis and that's why Jews need Israel. etc etc etc." Catholics of my generation can still recite the Baltimore Catechism from cover-to-cover -- even if we've long since moved away from that total world view -- and Max's recitation of Jewish holocaust dogma impressed me as the same kind of drilled, over-learned response. Your recitations impress me much the same way.

    It's tough to question notions so intensely reinforced, but I think the Jewish community, especially young Jews, must seek to move beyond a version of history that zionist leaders contrived a hundred years ago.
    A few years ago Mondoweiss posted a video of a conversation featuring Peter Beinart during which a young Jewish woman in the audience said, her voice quavering, "We were lied to." The woman, Dana Karon, explained that she had been raised by zionist parents and attended schools in Israel. Teaching and texts rendered invisible the presence of Palestinians on "Israel's land." She felt abused and betrayed by her elders and teachers.
    What was even more interesting about this video clip (which I'm unable to find right now) was the way an "elder" approached Karon at the end of the conference and worked to turn her around, to weaken her negative statements and maneuver her to reaffirm her belief in the "right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state." She capitulated.
    If young Jews were lied to about the presence of Palestinians, what other lies have they been told?


    NB -- it's not just Jewish young people who owe it to themselves to challenge holocaust dogma. We non-Jewish Americans have not only the right but, in my opinion, the obligation and responsibility to our young people to clamor for a more truthful accounting of the world wars of the 20th century. It is my working hypothesis that Woodrow Wilson and, especially, Franklin Delano Roosevelt led the American people on a foreign policy path that deviates almost diametrically from that laid out by George Washington in his Farewell Address. We've got to get back on the right path.
    If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sH0uR2u7Hs

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    Your response is surprisingly childish, Sam, and also has a boilerplate quality to it -- did you cut-and-paste a term paper from your Hebrew day school, or copy the placards from a holocaust museum exhibit?
    -----

    For starters --

    [Shall we] discuss the German economy, from, shall we say Weimar
     
    No, we shall not start with Weimar.

    ~1881 is a more appropriate starting point.

    In one of the first discussions of his then-new book, The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris, David McCullough commented that a proper understanding of the world wars in Europe would have to start with the Franco-Prussian war, or more specifically, the unification of Germany that came about at the outcome of that war.



    Three of the most critical reactions to Prussian victory were the seething resentment of the French and their determination to retake Alsace-Lorraine; heightened wariness on the part of the British at the growing power of German; and a significant migration of Jews from other states in the region to take advantage of the promise of rising prosperity in Germany, a migration which coincided with Haskalah movement as well as a resurgence of the zionist impulse among Eastern European Jews.

    Regarding the French, they come to the fore at Versailles, where French revanchism played a large role in the imposition of outsized reparations on Germany, but Clemenceau's role has been over-emphasized while the role of zionists surrounding Wilson -- and Lloyd George -- has been almost obscured.

    The British lived in fear of German unification for over a century -- similar to the USA's chronic concern over the rise of China. (If USA understood history properly, it could respond more maturely to its inevitable displacement as superpower; that's one reason I insist that deconstructing the holocaust is a moral imperative: the dogmatized and ludicrous narrative distorts history.)
    In 1748 David Hume predicted:

    "Germany is undoubtedly a fine country, full of industrious, honest people, and were it united it would be the greatest power that ever was in the world.”
     
    German unification came to pass in 1871. A decade later, 1881 Benjamin Disraeli observed ---

    [The Franco-Prussian] war represents the German revolution, a greater political event than the French revolution of last century. . . Not a single principle in the management of our foreign affairs, accepted by all statesmen for guidance up to six months ago, any longer exists. There is not a diplomatic tradition which has not been swept away. You have a new world, new influences at work, new and unknown objects and dangers with which to cope. . . We used to have discussions in this House about the balance of power. Lord Palmerston, eminently a practical man, trimmed the ship of State and shaped its policy with a view to preserve an equilibrium in Europe. [ . . . ] But what has really come to pass? The balance of power has been entirely destroyed, and the country which suffers most, and feels the effects of this great change most, is England.
     
    As has been their pattern in much of their history, Jews migrated to the place that promised new prosperity. Jews had lived in and among Germans for over a thousand years, but this new influx of Jews brought with it disturbing practices, most notably, offers of expansive credit together with usurious but secured interest that resulted in many, many native Germans losing their homes, farms, businesses and livelihoods to predatory lenders. An 1881 article in the Eclectic magazine complained that newly-arrived Jews claimed for themselves the benefits of the sacrifices the German people had made in setting up the institutions to achieve victory over France, and unification of Germany.

    In other words, by 1919, and certainly by the time of the Dawes plan, and of those extraordinary offers of the Americans and others to extend loans to Germany, in exchange for their gold, the German people already had a long and painful memory of dealing with generous lenders, and they wanted no part of it. Autonomy and sovereignty trump almost every other communal demand.

    Your treatment of the Marshall plan etc. evoked too much anger, and I must break off too cool down and attend to life's chores.

    Later.

    What a great comment. The Jew have used debt to gain control over a populace for millennia.

    Alan Greenspan has virtually bankrupt America with bubble after bubble. In the process making Jews richer and richer.

    This story needs to be told.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Ok, so are we to discuss the German economy, from, shall we say Weimar to the present in relatively broad strokes, or, do you plan yet again, to undergo your peevish, stock contortions about how the Germans were wronged! Oh so wronged I say! ?? [I reckon I can save you both time and effort, regardless]



    1919, a year that should remain forever etched in the German memory, beneficially one hopes, to discourage any resurgence of similar tendencies, was also marked by the Allies' unthinking and lazy miscalculations regarding the German economy's ability to pay annual foreign tributes in the sums contemplated at Versailles.

    Even a cursory examination of Germany's pre-war capacity and post-war penalties, her net imports [yes, she was running a trade deficit in the 5 years ending 1913], her earnings from foreign securities held, other receipts from her colonies and mercantile marine [both of which she lost totally], her overseas connections, natural resources: coal [one third taken away], iron ore [three quarters taken away], a cession of 10% of her population and territories, a revolution at home and Bolshevism at her borders and by all the unmeasured ruin in strength and hope of four years of all-swallowing war and final defeat, meant that the great indemnity - the expected service of which - depended on the assumption that she would be in a position to conduct in the future a vastly greater external sector than she had in the past.

    Yet in the end, while it is clear that the Allies' irrationally excessive reparations sowed the seeds for WWII, the lesson for any nation must be, to not enter into conflict with more powerful alliances, if you have not fully prepared for the various scenarios under which great hardship is certain to paint the national lot, if defeated. The Weimar republic, as it was losing its productive capacity during the war, with little thought granted to economics, decided simply to print currency and issue longer term debt in the hope of further territorial and resource gains, which as we know did not materialise resulting in hyperinflation for more than three years. The German Mark [or more precisely the Papiermark fell in value from about 10 units per U.S dollar to a few trillion per USD].

    In 1923-24 Germany negotiated large scale loans, guarantees in land and equipment, and a critical reduction in war reparations payments with the United States, culminating in the landmark Dawes Plan. Not only was the per annum reparations reduced from $2b to $50m, she further received a $200 m from the US government which would allow for heavy investment in German infrastructure. Linked to this agreement was the introduction of the new Reichsbank and the replacement of the old Mark with the Rentenmark. The Dawes plan also provided for the gradual removal of French and Belgian troops from the Rhineland.

    The Rentenmark with its U.S. backing led to an immediate extinguishing of hyperinflation. It was was replaced during the following year by the Reichsmark which was corralled by the U.S, such that at least 30% of its value had had to be covered by German's gold reserves. This was the critical discipline imposed on the Reichsbank [and Germans being Germans with a very un-anglo and linear understanding of monetary economics, carried that mentality over to the Bundesbank], So Germany saw prosperity during 1924-1929, at which point the the Great Depression struck with global implications. The U.K. was under golden fetters as well, it must be noted.

    The Nazi party, as it has been a feature in world history during periods of economic crisis, was very much the child of the Great Depression. There is nothing remarkable, nor insightful to observe regarding its economic model other than spending 10-15% of it national output on defence capacity expansion, paired with heavy rationing on account of [deserved] trade sanctions imposed on it. So while per capita income rose 10% or so, the general public did not benefit anywhere commensurate with what that number would imply ["want to spend your extra income on the latest model Maschinengewehr?]. It also suffered from periods of very high inflation.

    At the conclusion of WWII, with the aid of the U.S, $120b issued by the Marshall Plan, Germany - with the rest of Western Europe - started it's infrastucture rebuilding and recovery. This was the golden period of Germany's resurgence as an industrial power, termed Wirstschaftswinder, or the economic miracle in which Germany and Austria emerged as the premier industrial powers of Western Europe. The RM was replaced by the DM, which halted sporadic inflationary episodes and upon the removal of JCS 1067, which deliberately prohibited the U.S. forces which occupied Germany at the time to disengage from all steps engendering economic revival, the upward economic trajectory was well underway.

    [President FDR on the JCS 1067: "Too many people here and in England hold the view that the German people as a whole are not responsible for what has taken place – that only a few Nazis are responsible. That unfortunately is not based on fact. The German people must have it driven home to them that the whole nation has been engaged in a lawless conspiracy against the decencies of modern civilization"]

    Germany's economy [with small ranges of deviation] from the period of Wirstshaftswunder to the present has remained fully integrated with the major economies of Western Europe and more importantly of the United States and its Angloshpere allies. This was the plan of the leaderships of all associated nations, the mutual vision that on its path, was the architect of the Euro Area of Economic Co-operation, the Eurozone, the various treaties and partnerships in trade, commerce and technological co-operation. Thus today with Japan, the Western block has created an awe inspiring economic model which the world is steadily adopting, one which takes in it's stride the inevitable economic shocks that sometimes buffet our worlds, yet come out steadier than before, with the institutions wiser and better informed and co-ordinated, than in any other period in man's arc of civilised existence.

    In other words, gentlemen, this vessel is eminently seaworthy.

    P.S. : I forgot to address your troubles over "debt finance!!!" . Mostly nothing to spend sleepless nights over in the context of the modern integrated economies taken as a whole. It is mostly a question of domestic and global output distributions, and, bringing political hacks to heel.

    Your response is surprisingly childish, Sam, and also has a boilerplate quality to it — did you cut-and-paste a term paper from your Hebrew day school, or copy the placards from a holocaust museum exhibit?
    —–

    For starters —

    [Shall we] discuss the German economy, from, shall we say Weimar

    No, we shall not start with Weimar.

    ~1881 is a more appropriate starting point.

    In one of the first discussions of his then-new book, The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris, David McCullough commented that a proper understanding of the world wars in Europe would have to start with the Franco-Prussian war, or more specifically, the unification of Germany that came about at the outcome of that war.

    Three of the most critical reactions to Prussian victory were the seething resentment of the French and their determination to retake Alsace-Lorraine; heightened wariness on the part of the British at the growing power of German; and a significant migration of Jews from other states in the region to take advantage of the promise of rising prosperity in Germany, a migration which coincided with Haskalah movement as well as a resurgence of the zionist impulse among Eastern European Jews.

    Regarding the French, they come to the fore at Versailles, where French revanchism played a large role in the imposition of outsized reparations on Germany, but Clemenceau’s role has been over-emphasized while the role of zionists surrounding Wilson — and Lloyd George — has been almost obscured.

    The British lived in fear of German unification for over a century — similar to the USA’s chronic concern over the rise of China. (If USA understood history properly, it could respond more maturely to its inevitable displacement as superpower; that’s one reason I insist that deconstructing the holocaust is a moral imperative: the dogmatized and ludicrous narrative distorts history.)
    In 1748 David Hume predicted:

    “Germany is undoubtedly a fine country, full of industrious, honest people, and were it united it would be the greatest power that ever was in the world.”

    German unification came to pass in 1871. A decade later, 1881 Benjamin Disraeli observed

    [The Franco-Prussian] war represents the German revolution, a greater political event than the French revolution of last century. . . Not a single principle in the management of our foreign affairs, accepted by all statesmen for guidance up to six months ago, any longer exists. There is not a diplomatic tradition which has not been swept away. You have a new world, new influences at work, new and unknown objects and dangers with which to cope. . . We used to have discussions in this House about the balance of power. Lord Palmerston, eminently a practical man, trimmed the ship of State and shaped its policy with a view to preserve an equilibrium in Europe. [ . . . ] But what has really come to pass? The balance of power has been entirely destroyed, and the country which suffers most, and feels the effects of this great change most, is England.

    As has been their pattern in much of their history, Jews migrated to the place that promised new prosperity. Jews had lived in and among Germans for over a thousand years, but this new influx of Jews brought with it disturbing practices, most notably, offers of expansive credit together with usurious but secured interest that resulted in many, many native Germans losing their homes, farms, businesses and livelihoods to predatory lenders. An 1881 article in the Eclectic magazine complained that newly-arrived Jews claimed for themselves the benefits of the sacrifices the German people had made in setting up the institutions to achieve victory over France, and unification of Germany.

    In other words, by 1919, and certainly by the time of the Dawes plan, and of those extraordinary offers of the Americans and others to extend loans to Germany, in exchange for their gold, the German people already had a long and painful memory of dealing with generous lenders, and they wanted no part of it. Autonomy and sovereignty trump almost every other communal demand.

    Your treatment of the Marshall plan etc. evoked too much anger, and I must break off too cool down and attend to life’s chores.

    Later.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    What a great comment. The Jew have used debt to gain control over a populace for millennia.

    Alan Greenspan has virtually bankrupt America with bubble after bubble. In the process making Jews richer and richer.

    This story needs to be told.
    , @Sam Shama

    Your response is surprisingly childish, Sam, and also has a boilerplate quality to it — did you cut-and-paste a term paper from your Hebrew day school......
     
    What was childish really? "boilerplate", I will concede, might have some validity, since I myself thought it a bit abrupt an accounting of the proceedings. [stole a half hour from other tasks]. I am not a trained historian as such and plan to read the history of European wars in more detail [I did ask 5371 and others, who certainly are quite knowledgeable in my reckoning for references and I ask you as well]. I have however read economic history. So fairly sanguine about the numbers etc....Well better discourse in the future I hope.

    Your treatment of the Marshall plan etc. evoked too much anger, and I must break off too cool down and attend to life’s chores.
     
    I understand how you feel; taking incessant doses of Jew hatred on UR has only de-sensitised me partially.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Ok, so are we to discuss the German economy, from, shall we say Weimar to the present in relatively broad strokes, or, do you plan yet again, to undergo your peevish, stock contortions about how the Germans were wronged! Oh so wronged I say! ?? [I reckon I can save you both time and effort, regardless]



    1919, a year that should remain forever etched in the German memory, beneficially one hopes, to discourage any resurgence of similar tendencies, was also marked by the Allies' unthinking and lazy miscalculations regarding the German economy's ability to pay annual foreign tributes in the sums contemplated at Versailles.

    Even a cursory examination of Germany's pre-war capacity and post-war penalties, her net imports [yes, she was running a trade deficit in the 5 years ending 1913], her earnings from foreign securities held, other receipts from her colonies and mercantile marine [both of which she lost totally], her overseas connections, natural resources: coal [one third taken away], iron ore [three quarters taken away], a cession of 10% of her population and territories, a revolution at home and Bolshevism at her borders and by all the unmeasured ruin in strength and hope of four years of all-swallowing war and final defeat, meant that the great indemnity - the expected service of which - depended on the assumption that she would be in a position to conduct in the future a vastly greater external sector than she had in the past.

    Yet in the end, while it is clear that the Allies' irrationally excessive reparations sowed the seeds for WWII, the lesson for any nation must be, to not enter into conflict with more powerful alliances, if you have not fully prepared for the various scenarios under which great hardship is certain to paint the national lot, if defeated. The Weimar republic, as it was losing its productive capacity during the war, with little thought granted to economics, decided simply to print currency and issue longer term debt in the hope of further territorial and resource gains, which as we know did not materialise resulting in hyperinflation for more than three years. The German Mark [or more precisely the Papiermark fell in value from about 10 units per U.S dollar to a few trillion per USD].

    In 1923-24 Germany negotiated large scale loans, guarantees in land and equipment, and a critical reduction in war reparations payments with the United States, culminating in the landmark Dawes Plan. Not only was the per annum reparations reduced from $2b to $50m, she further received a $200 m from the US government which would allow for heavy investment in German infrastructure. Linked to this agreement was the introduction of the new Reichsbank and the replacement of the old Mark with the Rentenmark. The Dawes plan also provided for the gradual removal of French and Belgian troops from the Rhineland.

    The Rentenmark with its U.S. backing led to an immediate extinguishing of hyperinflation. It was was replaced during the following year by the Reichsmark which was corralled by the U.S, such that at least 30% of its value had had to be covered by German's gold reserves. This was the critical discipline imposed on the Reichsbank [and Germans being Germans with a very un-anglo and linear understanding of monetary economics, carried that mentality over to the Bundesbank], So Germany saw prosperity during 1924-1929, at which point the the Great Depression struck with global implications. The U.K. was under golden fetters as well, it must be noted.

    The Nazi party, as it has been a feature in world history during periods of economic crisis, was very much the child of the Great Depression. There is nothing remarkable, nor insightful to observe regarding its economic model other than spending 10-15% of it national output on defence capacity expansion, paired with heavy rationing on account of [deserved] trade sanctions imposed on it. So while per capita income rose 10% or so, the general public did not benefit anywhere commensurate with what that number would imply ["want to spend your extra income on the latest model Maschinengewehr?]. It also suffered from periods of very high inflation.

    At the conclusion of WWII, with the aid of the U.S, $120b issued by the Marshall Plan, Germany - with the rest of Western Europe - started it's infrastucture rebuilding and recovery. This was the golden period of Germany's resurgence as an industrial power, termed Wirstschaftswinder, or the economic miracle in which Germany and Austria emerged as the premier industrial powers of Western Europe. The RM was replaced by the DM, which halted sporadic inflationary episodes and upon the removal of JCS 1067, which deliberately prohibited the U.S. forces which occupied Germany at the time to disengage from all steps engendering economic revival, the upward economic trajectory was well underway.

    [President FDR on the JCS 1067: "Too many people here and in England hold the view that the German people as a whole are not responsible for what has taken place – that only a few Nazis are responsible. That unfortunately is not based on fact. The German people must have it driven home to them that the whole nation has been engaged in a lawless conspiracy against the decencies of modern civilization"]

    Germany's economy [with small ranges of deviation] from the period of Wirstshaftswunder to the present has remained fully integrated with the major economies of Western Europe and more importantly of the United States and its Angloshpere allies. This was the plan of the leaderships of all associated nations, the mutual vision that on its path, was the architect of the Euro Area of Economic Co-operation, the Eurozone, the various treaties and partnerships in trade, commerce and technological co-operation. Thus today with Japan, the Western block has created an awe inspiring economic model which the world is steadily adopting, one which takes in it's stride the inevitable economic shocks that sometimes buffet our worlds, yet come out steadier than before, with the institutions wiser and better informed and co-ordinated, than in any other period in man's arc of civilised existence.

    In other words, gentlemen, this vessel is eminently seaworthy.

    P.S. : I forgot to address your troubles over "debt finance!!!" . Mostly nothing to spend sleepless nights over in the context of the modern integrated economies taken as a whole. It is mostly a question of domestic and global output distributions, and, bringing political hacks to heel.

    Ok, so are we to discuss the German economy, from, shall we say Weimar to the present in relatively broad strokes, or, do you plan yet again, to undergo your peevish, stock contortions about how the Germans were wronged!

    Sam,

    It is amazing how you Jew can lie. Everyone acknowledges that Germany was forced into a bad economic situation after WWI.

    As a hasbara merchant it is your job to misdirect anyone who says anything against any Jew on any subject. You run cover for all the bad Jews – what a life.

    Arguing with you is a waste of time – even if you concede some small something – tomorrow you will start out with the same lies that you started out with today.

    The only thing to say to you is – Lair Lair!

    Art

    p.s. Is it exciting playing this victim Jew against the world game?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus

    So in a very tangible way, Germany is the de facto sovereign and the Euro is it’s fiat currency. [btw I don't necessarily dislike this arrangement, but only insist that Germany allow the peripherals to grow somewhat more vigorously. My position is driven by a recognition that for many nations, their internal economic machinery and polity are flawed, and consequently incompatible with liberal democratic rule, either inherited from shaky historical remnants, or, differently put, only a show of it carried out perfunctorily.]
     
    Did you hold the same pov when Germany was, indeed, in charge of its own economic destiny, a situation that was supported by the masses of the German people who enjoyed the prosperity achieved by freedom from debt-finance which, based on the observations of so many Germans, was imposed on them by the same Wall Street (and London) bankers that are a key topic in today's electoral process in USA?

    re the first point, To the extent "Germany is the de facto sovereign . . ." -- I suggest the word choices mischaracterize the true nature of things: Germany is sovereign only to the extent that it conforms with the demands of the US-based/dollar-based/fiat-currency-based/central banking-based system imposed on Germany after more than 12 years of economic war, followed by about 5 years of relentless firebombing that destroyed the German infrastructure and hundreds of thousands of its citizens; followed by at least 3 years of the harshly punitive if not, indeed, barbaric Morgenthau plan of starvation and enforced homelessness; capped off by military occupation that persists to this day.
    . After that, yes indeedy, the German people were awarded with sovereignty over the US military camps in their midst, back-stopped by the ever-vigilant zio-CHEKA who keep a watchful eye lest they fall back into their old ways of self-determination and control of their own economy.

    Who do you think you are kidding, Sam? It doesn't take a 240 IQ to smell bull dung.

    Ok, so are we to discuss the German economy, from, shall we say Weimar to the present in relatively broad strokes, or, do you plan yet again, to undergo your peevish, stock contortions about how the Germans were wronged! Oh so wronged I say! ?? [I reckon I can save you both time and effort, regardless]

    [MORE]

    1919, a year that should remain forever etched in the German memory, beneficially one hopes, to discourage any resurgence of similar tendencies, was also marked by the Allies’ unthinking and lazy miscalculations regarding the German economy’s ability to pay annual foreign tributes in the sums contemplated at Versailles.

    Even a cursory examination of Germany’s pre-war capacity and post-war penalties, her net imports [yes, she was running a trade deficit in the 5 years ending 1913], her earnings from foreign securities held, other receipts from her colonies and mercantile marine [both of which she lost totally], her overseas connections, natural resources: coal [one third taken away], iron ore [three quarters taken away], a cession of 10% of her population and territories, a revolution at home and Bolshevism at her borders and by all the unmeasured ruin in strength and hope of four years of all-swallowing war and final defeat, meant that the great indemnity – the expected service of which – depended on the assumption that she would be in a position to conduct in the future a vastly greater external sector than she had in the past.

    Yet in the end, while it is clear that the Allies’ irrationally excessive reparations sowed the seeds for WWII, the lesson for any nation must be, to not enter into conflict with more powerful alliances, if you have not fully prepared for the various scenarios under which great hardship is certain to paint the national lot, if defeated. The Weimar republic, as it was losing its productive capacity during the war, with little thought granted to economics, decided simply to print currency and issue longer term debt in the hope of further territorial and resource gains, which as we know did not materialise resulting in hyperinflation for more than three years. The German Mark [or more precisely the Papiermark fell in value from about 10 units per U.S dollar to a few trillion per USD].

    In 1923-24 Germany negotiated large scale loans, guarantees in land and equipment, and a critical reduction in war reparations payments with the United States, culminating in the landmark Dawes Plan. Not only was the per annum reparations reduced from $2b to $50m, she further received a $200 m from the US government which would allow for heavy investment in German infrastructure. Linked to this agreement was the introduction of the new Reichsbank and the replacement of the old Mark with the Rentenmark. The Dawes plan also provided for the gradual removal of French and Belgian troops from the Rhineland.

    The Rentenmark with its U.S. backing led to an immediate extinguishing of hyperinflation. It was was replaced during the following year by the Reichsmark which was corralled by the U.S, such that at least 30% of its value had had to be covered by German’s gold reserves. This was the critical discipline imposed on the Reichsbank [and Germans being Germans with a very un-anglo and linear understanding of monetary economics, carried that mentality over to the Bundesbank], So Germany saw prosperity during 1924-1929, at which point the the Great Depression struck with global implications. The U.K. was under golden fetters as well, it must be noted.

    The Nazi party, as it has been a feature in world history during periods of economic crisis, was very much the child of the Great Depression. There is nothing remarkable, nor insightful to observe regarding its economic model other than spending 10-15% of it national output on defence capacity expansion, paired with heavy rationing on account of [deserved] trade sanctions imposed on it. So while per capita income rose 10% or so, the general public did not benefit anywhere commensurate with what that number would imply ["want to spend your extra income on the latest model Maschinengewehr?]. It also suffered from periods of very high inflation.

    At the conclusion of WWII, with the aid of the U.S, $120b issued by the Marshall Plan, Germany – with the rest of Western Europe – started it’s infrastucture rebuilding and recovery. This was the golden period of Germany’s resurgence as an industrial power, termed Wirstschaftswinder, or the economic miracle in which Germany and Austria emerged as the premier industrial powers of Western Europe. The RM was replaced by the DM, which halted sporadic inflationary episodes and upon the removal of JCS 1067, which deliberately prohibited the U.S. forces which occupied Germany at the time to disengage from all steps engendering economic revival, the upward economic trajectory was well underway.

    [President FDR on the JCS 1067: "Too many people here and in England hold the view that the German people as a whole are not responsible for what has taken place – that only a few Nazis are responsible. That unfortunately is not based on fact. The German people must have it driven home to them that the whole nation has been engaged in a lawless conspiracy against the decencies of modern civilization"]

    Germany’s economy [with small ranges of deviation] from the period of Wirstshaftswunder to the present has remained fully integrated with the major economies of Western Europe and more importantly of the United States and its Angloshpere allies. This was the plan of the leaderships of all associated nations, the mutual vision that on its path, was the architect of the Euro Area of Economic Co-operation, the Eurozone, the various treaties and partnerships in trade, commerce and technological co-operation. Thus today with Japan, the Western block has created an awe inspiring economic model which the world is steadily adopting, one which takes in it’s stride the inevitable economic shocks that sometimes buffet our worlds, yet come out steadier than before, with the institutions wiser and better informed and co-ordinated, than in any other period in man’s arc of civilised existence.

    In other words, gentlemen, this vessel is eminently seaworthy.

    P.S. : I forgot to address your troubles over “debt finance!!!” . Mostly nothing to spend sleepless nights over in the context of the modern integrated economies taken as a whole. It is mostly a question of domestic and global output distributions, and, bringing political hacks to heel.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art

    Ok, so are we to discuss the German economy, from, shall we say Weimar to the present in relatively broad strokes, or, do you plan yet again, to undergo your peevish, stock contortions about how the Germans were wronged!
     
    Sam,

    It is amazing how you Jew can lie. Everyone acknowledges that Germany was forced into a bad economic situation after WWI.

    As a hasbara merchant it is your job to misdirect anyone who says anything against any Jew on any subject. You run cover for all the bad Jews – what a life.

    Arguing with you is a waste of time – even if you concede some small something – tomorrow you will start out with the same lies that you started out with today.

    The only thing to say to you is – Lair Lair!

    Art

    p.s. Is it exciting playing this victim Jew against the world game?
    , @SolontoCroesus
    Your response is surprisingly childish, Sam, and also has a boilerplate quality to it -- did you cut-and-paste a term paper from your Hebrew day school, or copy the placards from a holocaust museum exhibit?
    -----

    For starters --

    [Shall we] discuss the German economy, from, shall we say Weimar
     
    No, we shall not start with Weimar.

    ~1881 is a more appropriate starting point.

    In one of the first discussions of his then-new book, The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris, David McCullough commented that a proper understanding of the world wars in Europe would have to start with the Franco-Prussian war, or more specifically, the unification of Germany that came about at the outcome of that war.



    Three of the most critical reactions to Prussian victory were the seething resentment of the French and their determination to retake Alsace-Lorraine; heightened wariness on the part of the British at the growing power of German; and a significant migration of Jews from other states in the region to take advantage of the promise of rising prosperity in Germany, a migration which coincided with Haskalah movement as well as a resurgence of the zionist impulse among Eastern European Jews.

    Regarding the French, they come to the fore at Versailles, where French revanchism played a large role in the imposition of outsized reparations on Germany, but Clemenceau's role has been over-emphasized while the role of zionists surrounding Wilson -- and Lloyd George -- has been almost obscured.

    The British lived in fear of German unification for over a century -- similar to the USA's chronic concern over the rise of China. (If USA understood history properly, it could respond more maturely to its inevitable displacement as superpower; that's one reason I insist that deconstructing the holocaust is a moral imperative: the dogmatized and ludicrous narrative distorts history.)
    In 1748 David Hume predicted:

    "Germany is undoubtedly a fine country, full of industrious, honest people, and were it united it would be the greatest power that ever was in the world.”
     
    German unification came to pass in 1871. A decade later, 1881 Benjamin Disraeli observed ---

    [The Franco-Prussian] war represents the German revolution, a greater political event than the French revolution of last century. . . Not a single principle in the management of our foreign affairs, accepted by all statesmen for guidance up to six months ago, any longer exists. There is not a diplomatic tradition which has not been swept away. You have a new world, new influences at work, new and unknown objects and dangers with which to cope. . . We used to have discussions in this House about the balance of power. Lord Palmerston, eminently a practical man, trimmed the ship of State and shaped its policy with a view to preserve an equilibrium in Europe. [ . . . ] But what has really come to pass? The balance of power has been entirely destroyed, and the country which suffers most, and feels the effects of this great change most, is England.
     
    As has been their pattern in much of their history, Jews migrated to the place that promised new prosperity. Jews had lived in and among Germans for over a thousand years, but this new influx of Jews brought with it disturbing practices, most notably, offers of expansive credit together with usurious but secured interest that resulted in many, many native Germans losing their homes, farms, businesses and livelihoods to predatory lenders. An 1881 article in the Eclectic magazine complained that newly-arrived Jews claimed for themselves the benefits of the sacrifices the German people had made in setting up the institutions to achieve victory over France, and unification of Germany.

    In other words, by 1919, and certainly by the time of the Dawes plan, and of those extraordinary offers of the Americans and others to extend loans to Germany, in exchange for their gold, the German people already had a long and painful memory of dealing with generous lenders, and they wanted no part of it. Autonomy and sovereignty trump almost every other communal demand.

    Your treatment of the Marshall plan etc. evoked too much anger, and I must break off too cool down and attend to life's chores.

    Later.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @RobinG
    From your link --

    "But their second task is to establish another kind of connection, and make people see terrorism not as just a random occurrence but as a tactic in the Soviet war against the West."

    yeah, Russia was the target du jour, according to that review.

    In July 1979 the Cold War was still hot; the Shah was still on the Peacock throne and Iran was still Israel’s periphery protector. Iran was not a major problem in that world and time and did not occupy much of the attention of the Jerusalem conference; Benzion’s opening address named Arafat as a primary problem to Israel.

    Everything changed when Khomeini took the place of Shah Pahlevi.

    For the Israelis, it meant they no longer had free and open access to Iran’s inner circle — according to Ronen Bergman’s “Thirty Years War,” that denial of access, influence, and information was what bothered Israelis most about the overthrow of the Shah’s regime: Israelis continued to milk the Persian cow, selling it second-rate if not defective armaments throughout the Iran – Iraq war.

    The deposition of the Shah is also what caused Brzezinski’s schemes to kick in: Zbig is driven by hatred of Stalin/Communism. Iran had been the US bulwark against the Russians in the Cold war. It was Brzezinski’s idea to gin up a war between Iran and Iraq to keep Communist Russia out of Iran.

    Zbig is a bastard, no doubt about it, and his motivations are different from those of the Jewish lobby, which is, I think, the point you were trying to make to geokat62. But to fracture a phrase, bastards of a feather flock together: the two pathologies fed each other — they still do.

    This is hardly a novel phenomenon in international affairs nor is the use of the hatreds of one entity to service the hatreds of another entity unique to Jews — for all that Yuri Slezkine labels Jews as “Mercurians” and doers of the deeds that no one else wishes to carry out.

    But, since I never miss a chance to bang my obsessive drum — it is a fact, recorded by Edwin Black in “The Transfer Agreement,” that Jews in the USA and Poland deliberately conflated the relatively minor Danzig conflict with the zionist agenda of American and Palestine-based Jewish zionists to ratchet up hatred of Germany in the early years of the NSDAP, to such a point that the Polish side was made to toxic to entertain the generous offers of the Germans, even tho endorsed by Chamberlain and other European diplomats. The Jewish leaders behind this escalation of tension did so deliberately, in pursuit of the zionist agenda. They brought about a war that had devastating consequences for millions of people, most of them non-Jews. The repercussions are felt to this day.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    While Jimmy Carter was signing that (presumably) Executive Order on July 3, 1979, George H. W. Bush was in his wilderness years period, 1977-1980. More precisely, from 1977 to 1979 GHWB was Director of the Council on Foreign Relations, succeeding Zbigniew Brzezinski who was CFR Director from 1972 to 1977.

    During his tenure as Director of CFR, more precisely, in the first week of July, 1979, George H W Bush attended and was a speaker at the Jerusalem Conference, hosted by Benzion Netanyahu and his second son, Benjamin Netanyahu, under the auspices of the Jonathan Institute, named in honor of Benzion's first-born son who died in Israel's commando raid at Entebbe on July 4, 1976 (the date for the raid was deliberately chosen to coincide with the US bicentennial celebration).

    The topic of the conference was International Terrorism: Challenge and Response. Other participants included a who's who of the neocon think tank apparatus / Israel lobby in US, including two other Georges -- Schultz and Will; Podhoretzes and Decters; Scoop Jackson; Richard Pipes; historian Paul Johnson, etc.

    Notice that the blurb mistakenly names the book's editor, Benjamin Netanyahu, as "Professor emeritus of Judaic studies." Benzion held that designation; Benjamin had dropped out of classes in architecture and returned to Israel in the immediate aftermath of his brother's death in 1976. Benjamin's editorial duties on the 1979 book and his subsequent publication of several iterations of theories on terrorism garnered him the reputation of "expert on terrorism." He was introduced as such when he appeared before a US Congressional subcommittee chaired by Rep. Dan Burton on Sept. 12, 2002. The date coincided with George W. Bush's speech at the United Nations at which Bush effectively issued an ultimatum to Saddam Hussein, backed by the threat of use of US military force.

    Netanyahu urged Chairman Burton and his subcommittee to support President Bush and "take out Iraq, the keystone of the terror network." http://www.c-span.org/video/?172612-1/israeli-perspective-conflict-iraq

    In other words, actions to destabilize the Middle East have been bipartisan and interlinked, consistent with the scheme Benzion Netanyahu set in motion in 1943-1944 when he and Rabbi Stephen Wise maneuvered both the Republican and Democratic parties to insert a commitment to the Jewish state on both parties's platforms. http://www.unz.com/article/the-bill-and-hillary-show/#comment-1447272

    From your link –

    “But their second task is to establish another kind of connection, and make people see terrorism not as just a random occurrence but as a tactic in the Soviet war against the West.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    yeah, Russia was the target du jour, according to that review.

    In July 1979 the Cold War was still hot; the Shah was still on the Peacock throne and Iran was still Israel's periphery protector. Iran was not a major problem in that world and time and did not occupy much of the attention of the Jerusalem conference; Benzion's opening address named Arafat as a primary problem to Israel.

    Everything changed when Khomeini took the place of Shah Pahlevi.

    For the Israelis, it meant they no longer had free and open access to Iran's inner circle -- according to Ronen Bergman's "Thirty Years War," that denial of access, influence, and information was what bothered Israelis most about the overthrow of the Shah's regime: Israelis continued to milk the Persian cow, selling it second-rate if not defective armaments throughout the Iran - Iraq war.

    The deposition of the Shah is also what caused Brzezinski's schemes to kick in: Zbig is driven by hatred of Stalin/Communism. Iran had been the US bulwark against the Russians in the Cold war. It was Brzezinski's idea to gin up a war between Iran and Iraq to keep Communist Russia out of Iran.

    Zbig is a bastard, no doubt about it, and his motivations are different from those of the Jewish lobby, which is, I think, the point you were trying to make to geokat62. But to fracture a phrase, bastards of a feather flock together: the two pathologies fed each other -- they still do.

    This is hardly a novel phenomenon in international affairs nor is the use of the hatreds of one entity to service the hatreds of another entity unique to Jews -- for all that Yuri Slezkine labels Jews as "Mercurians" and doers of the deeds that no one else wishes to carry out.

    But, since I never miss a chance to bang my obsessive drum -- it is a fact, recorded by Edwin Black in "The Transfer Agreement," that Jews in the USA and Poland deliberately conflated the relatively minor Danzig conflict with the zionist agenda of American and Palestine-based Jewish zionists to ratchet up hatred of Germany in the early years of the NSDAP, to such a point that the Polish side was made to toxic to entertain the generous offers of the Germans, even tho endorsed by Chamberlain and other European diplomats. The Jewish leaders behind this escalation of tension did so deliberately, in pursuit of the zionist agenda. They brought about a war that had devastating consequences for millions of people, most of them non-Jews. The repercussions are felt to this day.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @RobinG
    You've really twisted yourself into a pretzel trying to defend your statement (and I'm not sure if you even believe it, or just oversimplify for effect) but I'm not impressed by your drifting from the subject, particularly since you falsely alleged that I "point out'" anything whatsoever about 9/11. And good grief, if there were actually "hard evidence" you wouldn't need the "may"

    ("...there is hard evidence to suggest that the Israelis may have played...")
     
    LOL. But you still misrepresent M&W. (I'm not saying 'misinterpret' because I'm sure you know what you're doing, weird inbreeding notwithstanding;))

    I believe I'm as much opposed to the Israel Lobby's influence on US policy as you are, but I don't think you enhance your credibility by pretending they're the only game in town. And every Senator and Congressman with defense industry jobs in their state (the MIC having thoughtfully located in ALL states) has a stake in the games.

    "According to Zbignew Brzezinski’s own bragging terrorism itself was born July 3, 1979 when President Carter, under his influence, signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the Soviet sponsored regime in Kabul. Never the less the Soviets did manage to keep Kabul relatively cosmopolitan until National Security Decision Directive 166 was passed under a bullet riddled and doddering president Reagan six years later, also under Brzezinski’s influence. That’s when terrorism became a lucrative and logical career choice for a poor boy from the Middle East. Ziggy long ago should have been dubbed by every honest historian as the father of modern Islamic terrorism and even before that should have been hung by the neck until dead in the interest of Justice…"
    Jack Heart, commenting on "Brzezinski’s NeoColonial Strategic Vision"
     
    http://journal-neo.org/2016/06/09/brzezinski-s-neocolonial-strategic-vision/
    Brzezinski’s NeoColonial Strategic Vision
    http://journal-neo.org/2016/06/09/brzezinski-s-neocolonial-strategic-vision/

    While Jimmy Carter was signing that (presumably) Executive Order on July 3, 1979, George H. W. Bush was in his wilderness years period, 1977-1980. More precisely, from 1977 to 1979 GHWB was Director of the Council on Foreign Relations, succeeding Zbigniew Brzezinski who was CFR Director from 1972 to 1977.

    During his tenure as Director of CFR, more precisely, in the first week of July, 1979, George H W Bush attended and was a speaker at the Jerusalem Conference, hosted by Benzion Netanyahu and his second son, Benjamin Netanyahu, under the auspices of the Jonathan Institute, named in honor of Benzion’s first-born son who died in Israel’s commando raid at Entebbe on July 4, 1976 (the date for the raid was deliberately chosen to coincide with the US bicentennial celebration).

    The topic of the conference was International Terrorism: Challenge and Response. Other participants included a who’s who of the neocon think tank apparatus / Israel lobby in US, including two other Georges — Schultz and Will; Podhoretzes and Decters; Scoop Jackson; Richard Pipes; historian Paul Johnson, etc.

    Notice that the blurb mistakenly names the book’s editor, Benjamin Netanyahu, as “Professor emeritus of Judaic studies.” Benzion held that designation; Benjamin had dropped out of classes in architecture and returned to Israel in the immediate aftermath of his brother’s death in 1976. Benjamin’s editorial duties on the 1979 book and his subsequent publication of several iterations of theories on terrorism garnered him the reputation of “expert on terrorism.” He was introduced as such when he appeared before a US Congressional subcommittee chaired by Rep. Dan Burton on Sept. 12, 2002. The date coincided with George W. Bush’s speech at the United Nations at which Bush effectively issued an ultimatum to Saddam Hussein, backed by the threat of use of US military force.

    Netanyahu urged Chairman Burton and his subcommittee to support President Bush and “take out Iraq, the keystone of the terror network.” http://www.c-span.org/video/?172612-1/israeli-perspective-conflict-iraq

    In other words, actions to destabilize the Middle East have been bipartisan and interlinked, consistent with the scheme Benzion Netanyahu set in motion in 1943-1944 when he and Rabbi Stephen Wise maneuvered both the Republican and Democratic parties to insert a commitment to the Jewish state on both parties’s platforms. http://www.unz.com/article/the-bill-and-hillary-show/#comment-1447272

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    From your link --

    "But their second task is to establish another kind of connection, and make people see terrorism not as just a random occurrence but as a tactic in the Soviet war against the West."
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    Let’s say, your mom would never have borne you without your dad. So he was essential, but he didn’t do it alone.
     
    Here's what I wrote:

    ... the invasion of Iraq would not have occurred without the influence of the Israel Lobby
     
    Here's what M&W write:

    We also traced the lobby’s impact on recent U.S. policies, including the March 2003 invasion of Iraq. Neoconservatives inside and outside the Bush administration, as well as leaders of a number of prominent pro-Israel organizations, played key roles in making the case for war. We believe the United States would not have attacked Iraq without their efforts. That said, these groups and individuals did not operate in a vacuum, and they did not lead the country to war by themselves. For instance, the war would probably not have occurred absent the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, which helped convince President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney to support it.

    http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0042.pdf

     

    So I think I accurately represented the two professors' position on this matter.

    But you are right to point out that they couldn't have "tipped the balance, goaded the attack dog, whatever," without the attacks on 9/11. But as I've been arguing in another thread, there is hard evidence to suggest that the Israelis may have played a role in the events on 9/11. That's why I think an independent investigation should be opened to determine what role the Israelis played before, during, and after the events on that day. The evidence for calling for that investigation would be based on Carl Cameron's 4-part series on Fox News and eyewitness testimony of the 5 Dancing Israelis.

    So you see Robin, the Israel Lobby happens to be both of my parents: my dad (pushing for the invasion of Iraq) and my mom (facilitating the events on 9/11, the pretext for invading Iraq).

    You’ve really twisted yourself into a pretzel trying to defend your statement (and I’m not sure if you even believe it, or just oversimplify for effect) but I’m not impressed by your drifting from the subject, particularly since you falsely alleged that I “point out’” anything whatsoever about 9/11. And good grief, if there were actually “hard evidence” you wouldn’t need the “may”

    (“…there is hard evidence to suggest that the Israelis may have played…”)

    LOL. But you still misrepresent M&W. (I’m not saying ‘misinterpret’ because I’m sure you know what you’re doing, weird inbreeding notwithstanding;))

    I believe I’m as much opposed to the Israel Lobby’s influence on US policy as you are, but I don’t think you enhance your credibility by pretending they’re the only game in town. And every Senator and Congressman with defense industry jobs in their state (the MIC having thoughtfully located in ALL states) has a stake in the games.

    “According to Zbignew Brzezinski’s own bragging terrorism itself was born July 3, 1979 when President Carter, under his influence, signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the Soviet sponsored regime in Kabul. Never the less the Soviets did manage to keep Kabul relatively cosmopolitan until National Security Decision Directive 166 was passed under a bullet riddled and doddering president Reagan six years later, also under Brzezinski’s influence. That’s when terrorism became a lucrative and logical career choice for a poor boy from the Middle East. Ziggy long ago should have been dubbed by every honest historian as the father of modern Islamic terrorism and even before that should have been hung by the neck until dead in the interest of Justice…”
    Jack Heart, commenting on “Brzezinski’s NeoColonial Strategic Vision”

    http://journal-neo.org/2016/06/09/brzezinski-s-neocolonial-strategic-vision/

    Brzezinski’s NeoColonial Strategic Vision

    http://journal-neo.org/2016/06/09/brzezinski-s-neocolonial-strategic-vision/

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    While Jimmy Carter was signing that (presumably) Executive Order on July 3, 1979, George H. W. Bush was in his wilderness years period, 1977-1980. More precisely, from 1977 to 1979 GHWB was Director of the Council on Foreign Relations, succeeding Zbigniew Brzezinski who was CFR Director from 1972 to 1977.

    During his tenure as Director of CFR, more precisely, in the first week of July, 1979, George H W Bush attended and was a speaker at the Jerusalem Conference, hosted by Benzion Netanyahu and his second son, Benjamin Netanyahu, under the auspices of the Jonathan Institute, named in honor of Benzion's first-born son who died in Israel's commando raid at Entebbe on July 4, 1976 (the date for the raid was deliberately chosen to coincide with the US bicentennial celebration).

    The topic of the conference was International Terrorism: Challenge and Response. Other participants included a who's who of the neocon think tank apparatus / Israel lobby in US, including two other Georges -- Schultz and Will; Podhoretzes and Decters; Scoop Jackson; Richard Pipes; historian Paul Johnson, etc.

    Notice that the blurb mistakenly names the book's editor, Benjamin Netanyahu, as "Professor emeritus of Judaic studies." Benzion held that designation; Benjamin had dropped out of classes in architecture and returned to Israel in the immediate aftermath of his brother's death in 1976. Benjamin's editorial duties on the 1979 book and his subsequent publication of several iterations of theories on terrorism garnered him the reputation of "expert on terrorism." He was introduced as such when he appeared before a US Congressional subcommittee chaired by Rep. Dan Burton on Sept. 12, 2002. The date coincided with George W. Bush's speech at the United Nations at which Bush effectively issued an ultimatum to Saddam Hussein, backed by the threat of use of US military force.

    Netanyahu urged Chairman Burton and his subcommittee to support President Bush and "take out Iraq, the keystone of the terror network." http://www.c-span.org/video/?172612-1/israeli-perspective-conflict-iraq

    In other words, actions to destabilize the Middle East have been bipartisan and interlinked, consistent with the scheme Benzion Netanyahu set in motion in 1943-1944 when he and Rabbi Stephen Wise maneuvered both the Republican and Democratic parties to insert a commitment to the Jewish state on both parties's platforms. http://www.unz.com/article/the-bill-and-hillary-show/#comment-1447272

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  • @alexander
    Anything to avoid the issue of Israels land thefts, and the fact it has no peace plan..

    Right, Sam ?

    A lot of Israelis obviously regard the taking of Palestinian land as a necessary buffer against renewed aggression against Israel – perhaps analogous to the Austrians using Serb peasant ex-soldiers as a buffer against the Ottomans. And you wouldn’be listened to if you kept on raising the standard of general acceptance of sovereign borders against them. it is after all the exceptions which count and the non-acceptance of Israel as a country with sovereign borders by countries as powerful as Iran leaves you with nothing but naive optimism to support your idea that there is only Israeli expansionism in the way of peace.

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  • @alexander
    Wizard,

    "Israels leaders would be expected to be applauded by making Israel safer by...."....WHAT ?

    Israels safety and security can be most easily achieved, by making PEACE and being AT PEACE with its neighbors.

    Isn't this the most obvious truth in the world ?

    Why should it have to BALKANIZE anybody ?

    Just make a PEACE PLAN and present it to its neighbors and the World Powers.

    If Israel truly wants "peace"...why hasn't it done that ?

    Of course a peace which meant all ME countries genuinely accepted the settlement and were no longer armed so as to make other countries fear possible major aggression would be the best form of security for Israel’s future, provided also – a big proviso – none of them were so unstable as to make fear of the Muslim Brotherhood taking over the government and reneging on the peace. Now THAT wold be marvellous. But I was writing about an Israeli government’should mundane reality.

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  • @SolontoCroesus

    So in a very tangible way, Germany is the de facto sovereign and the Euro is it’s fiat currency. [btw I don't necessarily dislike this arrangement, but only insist that Germany allow the peripherals to grow somewhat more vigorously. My position is driven by a recognition that for many nations, their internal economic machinery and polity are flawed, and consequently incompatible with liberal democratic rule, either inherited from shaky historical remnants, or, differently put, only a show of it carried out perfunctorily.]
     
    Did you hold the same pov when Germany was, indeed, in charge of its own economic destiny, a situation that was supported by the masses of the German people who enjoyed the prosperity achieved by freedom from debt-finance which, based on the observations of so many Germans, was imposed on them by the same Wall Street (and London) bankers that are a key topic in today's electoral process in USA?

    re the first point, To the extent "Germany is the de facto sovereign . . ." -- I suggest the word choices mischaracterize the true nature of things: Germany is sovereign only to the extent that it conforms with the demands of the US-based/dollar-based/fiat-currency-based/central banking-based system imposed on Germany after more than 12 years of economic war, followed by about 5 years of relentless firebombing that destroyed the German infrastructure and hundreds of thousands of its citizens; followed by at least 3 years of the harshly punitive if not, indeed, barbaric Morgenthau plan of starvation and enforced homelessness; capped off by military occupation that persists to this day.
    . After that, yes indeedy, the German people were awarded with sovereignty over the US military camps in their midst, back-stopped by the ever-vigilant zio-CHEKA who keep a watchful eye lest they fall back into their old ways of self-determination and control of their own economy.

    Who do you think you are kidding, Sam? It doesn't take a 240 IQ to smell bull dung.

    LMAO on the last bit. Have to run for 1st yoga lesson. Back with an answer in due course.

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  • @alexander
    Anything to avoid the issue of Israels land thefts, and the fact it has no peace plan..

    Right, Sam ?

    You are the one that opened the flippant door, which nevertheless shone the spotlight on the true state of affairs in Europe.

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  • @Sam Shama
    Your heart is in the right place but other aspects of your cognitive apparatus, are letting you down. It is rather telling, when you rapidly toss out rhetorics on the question of invasions in Europe. One doesn't need to traipse down the historical experience to realise that today, specifically since the creation of the Euro as the common currency, Germany effectively controls the fate of the peripheral countries like Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, while the destinies of Italy, France, Netherlands, Finland etc. are inextricably linked to the success of Germany in steering the compliance of those peripherals. So in a very tangible way, Germany is the de facto sovereign and the Euro is it's fiat currency. [btw I don't necessarily dislike this arrangement, but only insist that Germany allow the peripherals to grow somewhat more vigorously. My position is driven by a recognition that for many nations, their internal economic machinery and polity are flawed, and consequently incompatible with liberal democratic rule, either inherited from shaky historical remnants, or, differently put, only a show of it carried out perfunctorily.]

    Your heart is in the right place but other aspects of your cognitive apparatus, are letting you down.

    BS, he is an 88. He thinks he is a master of sophistry, but he’s not. He has Jews on the Brain Disease and he has only one speed, at least some of the others can think a little. Poor pitiful Palestinians; what a crock.

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    • Replies: @alexander
    Hey Iffen,

    Why don't you take your stupid 88s comments and just deep six them.....so trite, so trivial, and so evasive.

    Face it...face the truth, Iffen,...That even as I write this comment...Israeli supremacist nationals, who are fast approaching majority status in Israel, want to exterminate every Palestinian "untermenchen" that still lives...and steal all their land.....in EXACTLY the same way...the Nazi's exterminated the Jews....

    Just acknowledge the reality of it.....face up to it...because its a fascist, freight train "reality" coming straight at you.

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  • @Sam Shama
    Misplaced flippancy was the very point I was hoping to make. Speak to the Greeks and you will get an idea of how at peace they feel. Though again, angry crowds usually don't comprehend the true reason for their anger: their own shortcomings.

    Anything to avoid the issue of Israels land thefts, and the fact it has no peace plan..

    Right, Sam ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    You are the one that opened the flippant door, which nevertheless shone the spotlight on the true state of affairs in Europe.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    A lot of Israelis obviously regard the taking of Palestinian land as a necessary buffer against renewed aggression against Israel - perhaps analogous to the Austrians using Serb peasant ex-soldiers as a buffer against the Ottomans. And you wouldn'be listened to if you kept on raising the standard of general acceptance of sovereign borders against them. it is after all the exceptions which count and the non-acceptance of Israel as a country with sovereign borders by countries as powerful as Iran leaves you with nothing but naive optimism to support your idea that there is only Israeli expansionism in the way of peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Your heart is in the right place but other aspects of your cognitive apparatus, are letting you down. It is rather telling, when you rapidly toss out rhetorics on the question of invasions in Europe. One doesn't need to traipse down the historical experience to realise that today, specifically since the creation of the Euro as the common currency, Germany effectively controls the fate of the peripheral countries like Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, while the destinies of Italy, France, Netherlands, Finland etc. are inextricably linked to the success of Germany in steering the compliance of those peripherals. So in a very tangible way, Germany is the de facto sovereign and the Euro is it's fiat currency. [btw I don't necessarily dislike this arrangement, but only insist that Germany allow the peripherals to grow somewhat more vigorously. My position is driven by a recognition that for many nations, their internal economic machinery and polity are flawed, and consequently incompatible with liberal democratic rule, either inherited from shaky historical remnants, or, differently put, only a show of it carried out perfunctorily.]

    So in a very tangible way, Germany is the de facto sovereign and the Euro is it’s fiat currency. [btw I don't necessarily dislike this arrangement, but only insist that Germany allow the peripherals to grow somewhat more vigorously. My position is driven by a recognition that for many nations, their internal economic machinery and polity are flawed, and consequently incompatible with liberal democratic rule, either inherited from shaky historical remnants, or, differently put, only a show of it carried out perfunctorily.]

    Did you hold the same pov when Germany was, indeed, in charge of its own economic destiny, a situation that was supported by the masses of the German people who enjoyed the prosperity achieved by freedom from debt-finance which, based on the observations of so many Germans, was imposed on them by the same Wall Street (and London) bankers that are a key topic in today’s electoral process in USA?

    re the first point, To the extent “Germany is the de facto sovereign . . .” — I suggest the word choices mischaracterize the true nature of things: Germany is sovereign only to the extent that it conforms with the demands of the US-based/dollar-based/fiat-currency-based/central banking-based system imposed on Germany after more than 12 years of economic war, followed by about 5 years of relentless firebombing that destroyed the German infrastructure and hundreds of thousands of its citizens; followed by at least 3 years of the harshly punitive if not, indeed, barbaric Morgenthau plan of starvation and enforced homelessness; capped off by military occupation that persists to this day.
    . After that, yes indeedy, the German people were awarded with sovereignty over the US military camps in their midst, back-stopped by the ever-vigilant zio-CHEKA who keep a watchful eye lest they fall back into their old ways of self-determination and control of their own economy.

    Who do you think you are kidding, Sam? It doesn’t take a 240 IQ to smell bull dung.

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    LMAO on the last bit. Have to run for 1st yoga lesson. Back with an answer in due course.
    , @Sam Shama
    Ok, so are we to discuss the German economy, from, shall we say Weimar to the present in relatively broad strokes, or, do you plan yet again, to undergo your peevish, stock contortions about how the Germans were wronged! Oh so wronged I say! ?? [I reckon I can save you both time and effort, regardless]



    1919, a year that should remain forever etched in the German memory, beneficially one hopes, to discourage any resurgence of similar tendencies, was also marked by the Allies' unthinking and lazy miscalculations regarding the German economy's ability to pay annual foreign tributes in the sums contemplated at Versailles.

    Even a cursory examination of Germany's pre-war capacity and post-war penalties, her net imports [yes, she was running a trade deficit in the 5 years ending 1913], her earnings from foreign securities held, other receipts from her colonies and mercantile marine [both of which she lost totally], her overseas connections, natural resources: coal [one third taken away], iron ore [three quarters taken away], a cession of 10% of her population and territories, a revolution at home and Bolshevism at her borders and by all the unmeasured ruin in strength and hope of four years of all-swallowing war and final defeat, meant that the great indemnity - the expected service of which - depended on the assumption that she would be in a position to conduct in the future a vastly greater external sector than she had in the past.

    Yet in the end, while it is clear that the Allies' irrationally excessive reparations sowed the seeds for WWII, the lesson for any nation must be, to not enter into conflict with more powerful alliances, if you have not fully prepared for the various scenarios under which great hardship is certain to paint the national lot, if defeated. The Weimar republic, as it was losing its productive capacity during the war, with little thought granted to economics, decided simply to print currency and issue longer term debt in the hope of further territorial and resource gains, which as we know did not materialise resulting in hyperinflation for more than three years. The German Mark [or more precisely the Papiermark fell in value from about 10 units per U.S dollar to a few trillion per USD].

    In 1923-24 Germany negotiated large scale loans, guarantees in land and equipment, and a critical reduction in war reparations payments with the United States, culminating in the landmark Dawes Plan. Not only was the per annum reparations reduced from $2b to $50m, she further received a $200 m from the US government which would allow for heavy investment in German infrastructure. Linked to this agreement was the introduction of the new Reichsbank and the replacement of the old Mark with the Rentenmark. The Dawes plan also provided for the gradual removal of French and Belgian troops from the Rhineland.

    The Rentenmark with its U.S. backing led to an immediate extinguishing of hyperinflation. It was was replaced during the following year by the Reichsmark which was corralled by the U.S, such that at least 30% of its value had had to be covered by German's gold reserves. This was the critical discipline imposed on the Reichsbank [and Germans being Germans with a very un-anglo and linear understanding of monetary economics, carried that mentality over to the Bundesbank], So Germany saw prosperity during 1924-1929, at which point the the Great Depression struck with global implications. The U.K. was under golden fetters as well, it must be noted.

    The Nazi party, as it has been a feature in world history during periods of economic crisis, was very much the child of the Great Depression. There is nothing remarkable, nor insightful to observe regarding its economic model other than spending 10-15% of it national output on defence capacity expansion, paired with heavy rationing on account of [deserved] trade sanctions imposed on it. So while per capita income rose 10% or so, the general public did not benefit anywhere commensurate with what that number would imply ["want to spend your extra income on the latest model Maschinengewehr?]. It also suffered from periods of very high inflation.

    At the conclusion of WWII, with the aid of the U.S, $120b issued by the Marshall Plan, Germany - with the rest of Western Europe - started it's infrastucture rebuilding and recovery. This was the golden period of Germany's resurgence as an industrial power, termed Wirstschaftswinder, or the economic miracle in which Germany and Austria emerged as the premier industrial powers of Western Europe. The RM was replaced by the DM, which halted sporadic inflationary episodes and upon the removal of JCS 1067, which deliberately prohibited the U.S. forces which occupied Germany at the time to disengage from all steps engendering economic revival, the upward economic trajectory was well underway.

    [President FDR on the JCS 1067: "Too many people here and in England hold the view that the German people as a whole are not responsible for what has taken place – that only a few Nazis are responsible. That unfortunately is not based on fact. The German people must have it driven home to them that the whole nation has been engaged in a lawless conspiracy against the decencies of modern civilization"]

    Germany's economy [with small ranges of deviation] from the period of Wirstshaftswunder to the present has remained fully integrated with the major economies of Western Europe and more importantly of the United States and its Angloshpere allies. This was the plan of the leaderships of all associated nations, the mutual vision that on its path, was the architect of the Euro Area of Economic Co-operation, the Eurozone, the various treaties and partnerships in trade, commerce and technological co-operation. Thus today with Japan, the Western block has created an awe inspiring economic model which the world is steadily adopting, one which takes in it's stride the inevitable economic shocks that sometimes buffet our worlds, yet come out steadier than before, with the institutions wiser and better informed and co-ordinated, than in any other period in man's arc of civilised existence.

    In other words, gentlemen, this vessel is eminently seaworthy.

    P.S. : I forgot to address your troubles over "debt finance!!!" . Mostly nothing to spend sleepless nights over in the context of the modern integrated economies taken as a whole. It is mostly a question of domestic and global output distributions, and, bringing political hacks to heel.
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  • @alexander
    Interesting.

    "Rhetorics on the invasions of Europe" ?

    "cognitive apparatus"?

    Please.

    I suppose looking up the word "facetious" to understand my flip remark in response to Iffen transcends your cognitive faculties, to do and understand .

    But I suppose its all par for the course.

    The vast majority of the countries in the world are at peace, Thank God..and respect the sovereign borders of their neighbors...which is all to the good ...and how it should be.

    UNLIKE ISRAEL.

    which seems is always stealing , expanding and lebensraum-ing into territory which is not recognized as its own.

    Shameful, no?

    I am sure Iffen feels better , like many Israelis do, thinking "everyone" is land grabbing, not just them.

    I am sorry to inform him, and you, Sam, its simply not the case

    .Furthermore,whatever peace exists among the European nations I certainly don't attribute to the creation of the Euro-zone .

    The fact you would, certainly doesn't betray my cognitive dysfunctions,

    just perhaps your own.

    Misplaced flippancy was the very point I was hoping to make. Speak to the Greeks and you will get an idea of how at peace they feel. Though again, angry crowds usually don’t comprehend the true reason for their anger: their own shortcomings.

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    • Replies: @alexander
    Anything to avoid the issue of Israels land thefts, and the fact it has no peace plan..

    Right, Sam ?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Your heart is in the right place but other aspects of your cognitive apparatus, are letting you down. It is rather telling, when you rapidly toss out rhetorics on the question of invasions in Europe. One doesn't need to traipse down the historical experience to realise that today, specifically since the creation of the Euro as the common currency, Germany effectively controls the fate of the peripheral countries like Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, while the destinies of Italy, France, Netherlands, Finland etc. are inextricably linked to the success of Germany in steering the compliance of those peripherals. So in a very tangible way, Germany is the de facto sovereign and the Euro is it's fiat currency. [btw I don't necessarily dislike this arrangement, but only insist that Germany allow the peripherals to grow somewhat more vigorously. My position is driven by a recognition that for many nations, their internal economic machinery and polity are flawed, and consequently incompatible with liberal democratic rule, either inherited from shaky historical remnants, or, differently put, only a show of it carried out perfunctorily.]

    Interesting.

    “Rhetorics on the invasions of Europe” ?

    “cognitive apparatus”?

    Please.

    I suppose looking up the word “facetious” to understand my flip remark in response to Iffen transcends your cognitive faculties, to do and understand .

    But I suppose its all par for the course.

    The vast majority of the countries in the world are at peace, Thank God..and respect the sovereign borders of their neighbors…which is all to the good …and how it should be.

    UNLIKE ISRAEL.

    which seems is always stealing , expanding and lebensraum-ing into territory which is not recognized as its own.

    Shameful, no?

    I am sure Iffen feels better , like many Israelis do, thinking “everyone” is land grabbing, not just them.

    I am sorry to inform him, and you, Sam, its simply not the case

    .Furthermore,whatever peace exists among the European nations I certainly don’t attribute to the creation of the Euro-zone .

    The fact you would, certainly doesn’t betray my cognitive dysfunctions,

    just perhaps your own.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Misplaced flippancy was the very point I was hoping to make. Speak to the Greeks and you will get an idea of how at peace they feel. Though again, angry crowds usually don't comprehend the true reason for their anger: their own shortcomings.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Yes of course, iffen, I just need to open my eyes and see total war, chaos and conquest going on everywhere ?

    Right ?

    Look at how Switzerland, today, is invading northern Italy, to steal its land and resources.

    Look at how Germany, today, is invading France, to steal its land and resources.

    Look at how Poland, today, is invading Sweden,to steal its land and resources.

    Look at how Britain, today, is invading Spain to steal its land and resources.

    Why, war, and land theft is just going on all over the place, right Iffen?

    Its all total chaos...Right ?

    because this is the standard we all live by ?

    Please.

    Maybe it is the standard YOU live by...and who knows..by that very same standard ..maybe tomorrow you will wake up and choose to shoot your neighbor in the face and take his house ?

    Your heart is in the right place but other aspects of your cognitive apparatus, are letting you down. It is rather telling, when you rapidly toss out rhetorics on the question of invasions in Europe. One doesn’t need to traipse down the historical experience to realise that today, specifically since the creation of the Euro as the common currency, Germany effectively controls the fate of the peripheral countries like Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, while the destinies of Italy, France, Netherlands, Finland etc. are inextricably linked to the success of Germany in steering the compliance of those peripherals. So in a very tangible way, Germany is the de facto sovereign and the Euro is it’s fiat currency. [btw I don't necessarily dislike this arrangement, but only insist that Germany allow the peripherals to grow somewhat more vigorously. My position is driven by a recognition that for many nations, their internal economic machinery and polity are flawed, and consequently incompatible with liberal democratic rule, either inherited from shaky historical remnants, or, differently put, only a show of it carried out perfunctorily.]

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Interesting.

    "Rhetorics on the invasions of Europe" ?

    "cognitive apparatus"?

    Please.

    I suppose looking up the word "facetious" to understand my flip remark in response to Iffen transcends your cognitive faculties, to do and understand .

    But I suppose its all par for the course.

    The vast majority of the countries in the world are at peace, Thank God..and respect the sovereign borders of their neighbors...which is all to the good ...and how it should be.

    UNLIKE ISRAEL.

    which seems is always stealing , expanding and lebensraum-ing into territory which is not recognized as its own.

    Shameful, no?

    I am sure Iffen feels better , like many Israelis do, thinking "everyone" is land grabbing, not just them.

    I am sorry to inform him, and you, Sam, its simply not the case

    .Furthermore,whatever peace exists among the European nations I certainly don't attribute to the creation of the Euro-zone .

    The fact you would, certainly doesn't betray my cognitive dysfunctions,

    just perhaps your own.

    , @SolontoCroesus

    So in a very tangible way, Germany is the de facto sovereign and the Euro is it’s fiat currency. [btw I don't necessarily dislike this arrangement, but only insist that Germany allow the peripherals to grow somewhat more vigorously. My position is driven by a recognition that for many nations, their internal economic machinery and polity are flawed, and consequently incompatible with liberal democratic rule, either inherited from shaky historical remnants, or, differently put, only a show of it carried out perfunctorily.]
     
    Did you hold the same pov when Germany was, indeed, in charge of its own economic destiny, a situation that was supported by the masses of the German people who enjoyed the prosperity achieved by freedom from debt-finance which, based on the observations of so many Germans, was imposed on them by the same Wall Street (and London) bankers that are a key topic in today's electoral process in USA?

    re the first point, To the extent "Germany is the de facto sovereign . . ." -- I suggest the word choices mischaracterize the true nature of things: Germany is sovereign only to the extent that it conforms with the demands of the US-based/dollar-based/fiat-currency-based/central banking-based system imposed on Germany after more than 12 years of economic war, followed by about 5 years of relentless firebombing that destroyed the German infrastructure and hundreds of thousands of its citizens; followed by at least 3 years of the harshly punitive if not, indeed, barbaric Morgenthau plan of starvation and enforced homelessness; capped off by military occupation that persists to this day.
    . After that, yes indeedy, the German people were awarded with sovereignty over the US military camps in their midst, back-stopped by the ever-vigilant zio-CHEKA who keep a watchful eye lest they fall back into their old ways of self-determination and control of their own economy.

    Who do you think you are kidding, Sam? It doesn't take a 240 IQ to smell bull dung.

    , @iffen
    Your heart is in the right place but other aspects of your cognitive apparatus, are letting you down.

    BS, he is an 88. He thinks he is a master of sophistry, but he's not. He has Jews on the Brain Disease and he has only one speed, at least some of the others can think a little. Poor pitiful Palestinians; what a crock.
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  • @iffen
    the direction of its current government ... seize its land and resources, and either expel or liquidate any Palestinians left, who get in its way.

    This is, has been, and will be the way of the world.

    Why should Israel be held to a different standard?

    Oh! I forgot, all you 88s are ardent supporters of the UN and a one world government.

    Yes of course, iffen, I just need to open my eyes and see total war, chaos and conquest going on everywhere ?

    Right ?

    Look at how Switzerland, today, is invading northern Italy, to steal its land and resources.

    Look at how Germany, today, is invading France, to steal its land and resources.

    Look at how Poland, today, is invading Sweden,to steal its land and resources.

    Look at how Britain, today, is invading Spain to steal its land and resources.

    Why, war, and land theft is just going on all over the place, right Iffen?

    Its all total chaos…Right ?

    because this is the standard we all live by ?

    Please.

    Maybe it is the standard YOU live by…and who knows..by that very same standard ..maybe tomorrow you will wake up and choose to shoot your neighbor in the face and take his house ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Your heart is in the right place but other aspects of your cognitive apparatus, are letting you down. It is rather telling, when you rapidly toss out rhetorics on the question of invasions in Europe. One doesn't need to traipse down the historical experience to realise that today, specifically since the creation of the Euro as the common currency, Germany effectively controls the fate of the peripheral countries like Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, while the destinies of Italy, France, Netherlands, Finland etc. are inextricably linked to the success of Germany in steering the compliance of those peripherals. So in a very tangible way, Germany is the de facto sovereign and the Euro is it's fiat currency. [btw I don't necessarily dislike this arrangement, but only insist that Germany allow the peripherals to grow somewhat more vigorously. My position is driven by a recognition that for many nations, their internal economic machinery and polity are flawed, and consequently incompatible with liberal democratic rule, either inherited from shaky historical remnants, or, differently put, only a show of it carried out perfunctorily.]
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    I don't think Netanyahu or even harder line allies could count on the kind of support by Israelis for the kind of aggressive policy you imagine that they can count on when Israel is attacked.

    Accordingly realistic Israeli leaders would expect to be applauded by making Israel safer by
    1. Balkanising Syria and Iraq into several smaller states. In iraq Kurds and Sunni and Shia Muslims seems obvious and in Syria one rump state based on Damascus, a small Kurdish area and a large Sunni state;
    2. Firming up its hold on the Golan Heights taking advantage of the parties involved in par. 1 redistribution of territory being distracted from concentration on the Golan Heights;
    3. Manoeuvring to turn Palestine into something like a mini Switzerland with cantons divided not by mountains but by Jewish settlements and an economy which would also look to Hong Kong, Shenzhen and Singapore as models.

    Wizard,

    “Israels leaders would be expected to be applauded by making Israel safer by….”….WHAT ?

    Israels safety and security can be most easily achieved, by making PEACE and being AT PEACE with its neighbors.

    Isn’t this the most obvious truth in the world ?

    Why should it have to BALKANIZE anybody ?

    Just make a PEACE PLAN and present it to its neighbors and the World Powers.

    If Israel truly wants “peace”…why hasn’t it done that ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Of course a peace which meant all ME countries genuinely accepted the settlement and were no longer armed so as to make other countries fear possible major aggression would be the best form of security for Israel's future, provided also - a big proviso - none of them were so unstable as to make fear of the Muslim Brotherhood taking over the government and reneging on the peace. Now THAT wold be marvellous. But I was writing about an Israeli government'should mundane reality.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • the direction of its current government … seize its land and resources, and either expel or liquidate any Palestinians left, who get in its way.

    This is, has been, and will be the way of the world.

    Why should Israel be held to a different standard?

    Oh! I forgot, all you 88s are ardent supporters of the UN and a one world government.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Yes of course, iffen, I just need to open my eyes and see total war, chaos and conquest going on everywhere ?

    Right ?

    Look at how Switzerland, today, is invading northern Italy, to steal its land and resources.

    Look at how Germany, today, is invading France, to steal its land and resources.

    Look at how Poland, today, is invading Sweden,to steal its land and resources.

    Look at how Britain, today, is invading Spain to steal its land and resources.

    Why, war, and land theft is just going on all over the place, right Iffen?

    Its all total chaos...Right ?

    because this is the standard we all live by ?

    Please.

    Maybe it is the standard YOU live by...and who knows..by that very same standard ..maybe tomorrow you will wake up and choose to shoot your neighbor in the face and take his house ?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Obviously.


    It has become quite clear, given the total collapse of the peace process, and the direction of its current government ,that Israel is determined to "exterminate" all of Palestine, seize its land and resources, and either expel or liquidate any Palestinians left, who get in its way.

    So Palestine , for all intensive purposes, has become the modern day "Auschwitz"and Israel its supremacist, militarist, "Nazi-like" overseer.

    Is this a correct synopsis ?

    And Israel, fully aware of its intentions, is running around to every key western government seeking to create laws that bar any criticism of this impending reality under the guise of fighting antisemitism ?

    Is this a correct synopsis ?

    Furthermore, it is using its considerable financial and political clout in the United States to install a President most amenable to this outcome...the triumph of a "greater" Israel and .the Holocaust of Palestine.

    Not only is the Holocaust of Palestine in the cards, but the annihilation of perhaps its last great defender, Iran, is on the table too.

    So Israel foresees Hillary as mounting the podium as the next Commander in Chief, whose whole and singular purpose will be to decimate Iran through the use of our new strategic mini nukes , while Israel exterminates Gaza and the last remaining cantons of Palestine..

    Thus, Israels "Final Solution" comes into view.

    A triumphant and potent "Greater Israel" lording over all of Palestine....and the entire "Shiite crescent" (running from Beirut to Tehran), transformed, through belligerent war, into a burnt and smoldering husk...a wasteland of chaos , suffering and desolation.

    Is this the end ..Wizard ..or is it just..... the beginning ?

    Does Israel foresee even further conquests, once Palestine is liquidated ?....Once Iran is irradiated, ...will it march into Lebanon and recapture its coveted southern plateau?

    Will the dismemberment of Syria, proceed apace, in a continuous never ending civil war, meant to reduce that nation into a shattered and pulverized lump ?

    And what of the good old US, will our two decades of perpetual, belligerent, war-making finally break the bank..... as our national debt soars over thirty trillion ?

    Is this what we should all look forward to, Wizard ?

    Is this the big plan ?

    Or is there more?

    Tell me , Wizard ,what do your "experts" say ?

    I don’t think Netanyahu or even harder line allies could count on the kind of support by Israelis for the kind of aggressive policy you imagine that they can count on when Israel is attacked.

    Accordingly realistic Israeli leaders would expect to be applauded by making Israel safer by
    1. Balkanising Syria and Iraq into several smaller states. In iraq Kurds and Sunni and Shia Muslims seems obvious and in Syria one rump state based on Damascus, a small Kurdish area and a large Sunni state;
    2. Firming up its hold on the Golan Heights taking advantage of the parties involved in par. 1 redistribution of territory being distracted from concentration on the Golan Heights;
    3. Manoeuvring to turn Palestine into something like a mini Switzerland with cantons divided not by mountains but by Jewish settlements and an economy which would also look to Hong Kong, Shenzhen and Singapore as models.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Wizard,

    "Israels leaders would be expected to be applauded by making Israel safer by...."....WHAT ?

    Israels safety and security can be most easily achieved, by making PEACE and being AT PEACE with its neighbors.

    Isn't this the most obvious truth in the world ?

    Why should it have to BALKANIZE anybody ?

    Just make a PEACE PLAN and present it to its neighbors and the World Powers.

    If Israel truly wants "peace"...why hasn't it done that ?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    I couldn't agree more except for your penultimate sentence which is obviously divorced from observable reality.

    The problem is mindsets (including versions of reality: ancient, modern and theological) that are incompatible with easy agreement. The shame-honor culture problem is only a small part of that.

    Obviously.

    It has become quite clear, given the total collapse of the peace process, and the direction of its current government ,that Israel is determined to “exterminate” all of Palestine, seize its land and resources, and either expel or liquidate any Palestinians left, who get in its way.

    So Palestine , for all intensive purposes, has become the modern day “Auschwitz”and Israel its supremacist, militarist, “Nazi-like” overseer.

    Is this a correct synopsis ?

    And Israel, fully aware of its intentions, is running around to every key western government seeking to create laws that bar any criticism of this impending reality under the guise of fighting antisemitism ?

    Is this a correct synopsis ?

    Furthermore, it is using its considerable financial and political clout in the United States to install a President most amenable to this outcome…the triumph of a “greater” Israel and .the Holocaust of Palestine.

    Not only is the Holocaust of Palestine in the cards, but the annihilation of perhaps its last great defender, Iran, is on the table too.

    So Israel foresees Hillary as mounting the podium as the next Commander in Chief, whose whole and singular purpose will be to decimate Iran through the use of our new strategic mini nukes , while Israel exterminates Gaza and the last remaining cantons of Palestine..

    Thus, Israels “Final Solution” comes into view.

    A triumphant and potent “Greater Israel” lording over all of Palestine….and the entire “Shiite crescent” (running from Beirut to Tehran), transformed, through belligerent war, into a burnt and smoldering husk…a wasteland of chaos , suffering and desolation.

    Is this the end ..Wizard ..or is it just….. the beginning ?

    Does Israel foresee even further conquests, once Palestine is liquidated ?….Once Iran is irradiated, …will it march into Lebanon and recapture its coveted southern plateau?

    Will the dismemberment of Syria, proceed apace, in a continuous never ending civil war, meant to reduce that nation into a shattered and pulverized lump ?

    And what of the good old US, will our two decades of perpetual, belligerent, war-making finally break the bank….. as our national debt soars over thirty trillion ?

    Is this what we should all look forward to, Wizard ?

    Is this the big plan ?

    Or is there more?

    Tell me , Wizard ,what do your “experts” say ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I don't think Netanyahu or even harder line allies could count on the kind of support by Israelis for the kind of aggressive policy you imagine that they can count on when Israel is attacked.

    Accordingly realistic Israeli leaders would expect to be applauded by making Israel safer by
    1. Balkanising Syria and Iraq into several smaller states. In iraq Kurds and Sunni and Shia Muslims seems obvious and in Syria one rump state based on Damascus, a small Kurdish area and a large Sunni state;
    2. Firming up its hold on the Golan Heights taking advantage of the parties involved in par. 1 redistribution of territory being distracted from concentration on the Golan Heights;
    3. Manoeuvring to turn Palestine into something like a mini Switzerland with cantons divided not by mountains but by Jewish settlements and an economy which would also look to Hong Kong, Shenzhen and Singapore as models.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    if you want my conception of an equitable and fair resolution to the conflict .

    Here goes:

    Palestinians (and their descendants) who were forced out in 48 agree to relinquish their Right of Return. For so doing, they receive a "robust" compensation package and the right to settle anywhere in the new state of Palestine.


    Israel, if it wishes to retain USE of the Golan, offers to "lease" the land from its legal owner, Syria, for 99 years. In return, Syria receives a lump sum payment every ten years, and royalties from whatever mining , or drilling that occurs within the territory.


    Israel is more than welcome to rebuild its Temple, but should avoid, at all cost , building it ON TOP OF the Dome of the Rock. there are much less "incendiary" places to erect such a structure.

    The 67 lines should function as a clear guideline to establishing borders for both Israel and Palestine.

    Once those borders are established, the wall should be torn down.(it is disgraceful and a huge eyesore).

    Control of ALL of Jerusalem (East and West) should be under a tri-partisan committee composed of equal numbers of Israelis, Palestinians, and UN appointed overseers. Revenues from tourism into a Jerusalem (at Peace) should be distributed equitably among Palestine and Israel.

    Settlements within the OPT since 67, should , for the most part, be abandoned. Many that choose not to abandon their settlement can incorporate into Palestine, but must exist under Palestinian law, Palestinian jurisdiction, and pay taxes to Palestine.
    Large settlement blocs close to or adjacent to Israels recognized border can be merged into Israel, but there must be fair compensation to Palestine for the land and water rights.

    Gaza can retain full ownership of its offshore gas reserves, but it can offer free gas to Israel in return for Israel sharing its desalinization technology and helping to rebuild Gaza's decimated infrastructure,

    Two nations wholly at peace, living side by side, without fear.Where people are free to come and go as they please, Private property rights as well as the right of ones beliefs are equal for everybody....anyone can buy or sell land anywhere...as long as the price is right.

    No more stabbings, shootings, bombings,or beatings. No more house demolitions or bus explosions...no more hate...no more fear...no more war...

    A land at Peace..... A" Holy" land.

    Its not really that hard to make it happen.

    JUST DO IT.

    I couldn’t agree more except for your penultimate sentence which is obviously divorced from observable reality.

    The problem is mindsets (including versions of reality: ancient, modern and theological) that are incompatible with easy agreement. The shame-honor culture problem is only a small part of that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Obviously.


    It has become quite clear, given the total collapse of the peace process, and the direction of its current government ,that Israel is determined to "exterminate" all of Palestine, seize its land and resources, and either expel or liquidate any Palestinians left, who get in its way.

    So Palestine , for all intensive purposes, has become the modern day "Auschwitz"and Israel its supremacist, militarist, "Nazi-like" overseer.

    Is this a correct synopsis ?

    And Israel, fully aware of its intentions, is running around to every key western government seeking to create laws that bar any criticism of this impending reality under the guise of fighting antisemitism ?

    Is this a correct synopsis ?

    Furthermore, it is using its considerable financial and political clout in the United States to install a President most amenable to this outcome...the triumph of a "greater" Israel and .the Holocaust of Palestine.

    Not only is the Holocaust of Palestine in the cards, but the annihilation of perhaps its last great defender, Iran, is on the table too.

    So Israel foresees Hillary as mounting the podium as the next Commander in Chief, whose whole and singular purpose will be to decimate Iran through the use of our new strategic mini nukes , while Israel exterminates Gaza and the last remaining cantons of Palestine..

    Thus, Israels "Final Solution" comes into view.

    A triumphant and potent "Greater Israel" lording over all of Palestine....and the entire "Shiite crescent" (running from Beirut to Tehran), transformed, through belligerent war, into a burnt and smoldering husk...a wasteland of chaos , suffering and desolation.

    Is this the end ..Wizard ..or is it just..... the beginning ?

    Does Israel foresee even further conquests, once Palestine is liquidated ?....Once Iran is irradiated, ...will it march into Lebanon and recapture its coveted southern plateau?

    Will the dismemberment of Syria, proceed apace, in a continuous never ending civil war, meant to reduce that nation into a shattered and pulverized lump ?

    And what of the good old US, will our two decades of perpetual, belligerent, war-making finally break the bank..... as our national debt soars over thirty trillion ?

    Is this what we should all look forward to, Wizard ?

    Is this the big plan ?

    Or is there more?

    Tell me , Wizard ,what do your "experts" say ?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Mr Wizard,

    For the first forty years of my life, I adored Israel. Just the idea of returning to ones home after two thousand years...two thousand years!..The idea of rising from the ashes of the Holocaust, ...and after centuries of prejudice, pogroms and hate, to reclaim and rebuild a home and a country of ones own...was a great narrative..was a "miracle" for me .....One which I embraced my whole life.

    I still do.(in many ways)

    But I was also taught it was a "land without a people for a people without a land".

    When I was first informed that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, (who had been living there for centuries) were brutally forced out( with scores massacred in the process.)....I refused to believe it.

    Absolutely refused to believe it , Wizard.

    I refused to believe it because the "experts" told me it never happened.

    When ,for years, claims were made that Israel was actually building "settlements" in the Palestinian territories, I refused to believe it...

    Absolutely refused to believe it, Wizard.

    because the "experts" told me it wasn't true.

    When the "experts" informed me Iraq was an "imminent threat" to the US, and if we did not attack ASAP there would be mushroom clouds over our country...I believed it.

    When the "experts" informed us it was Saddam who stealthily deposited "anthrax" in Tom Brokaws newsroom and Senator Leahys office...I believed it !

    I believed the "experts", Wizard, because I didn't think they could ever lie to us about things like this..

    And then, one by one , the curtain began being pulled back, and all the experts I had trusted , all the experts I had relied on, turned out be total liars and total frauds.

    So I don't really place any trust in what they say, anymore, because when I did, I was deceived.

    Does this make sense to you ?....because it sure makes sense to me.

    Yes it makes sense in the sense that i believe you because it is unfortunately observable in a lot of good naive people who eventually become disillusioned with institutions – churches most notably and faith in priests and teaching brothers in the Catholic church most notably.

    I seem to have been born and brought up to be sceptical so my disappointments haven’t been so radical. Winston Churchill’s increasingly emphasised imperfections don’t eat away at me :-)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art
    Wizard of Mordecai,

    Here is the Big Mordecai - Netanyahu - killing peace.

    Your Welcome - Art


    Netanyahu Frets Over How To tackle French Peace Plan

    By Jonathan Cook

    June 07, 2016 "Information Clearing House" - "The National" - In a familiar muddying of the waters, Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu has spent the past week talking up peace while fiercely criticising Friday’s summit in France – the only diplomatic initiative on the horizon.

    As foreign ministers from 29 nations arrived for a one-day meeting in Paris, Mr Netanyahu dusted off the tired argument that any sign of diplomatic support for Palestinians would encourage from them “extreme demands".

    France hopes the meeting will serve as a prelude to launching a peace process later in the year. French president Francois Hollande said he hoped to achieve a “peace [that] will be solid, sustainable and under international supervision".

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article44827.htm
     

    So????

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @bunga
    ** I also have heard a Bedouin leader in Israel... "

    That means nothing I can pull some rabid rabbits out of Israeli hat and show some real racist settlers occupiers .Actually you can show that easily .

    I read Friedman once saying how the he was surprised and encouraged to hear some traders in Syrian souk getting involved in democratic process , pro American stance and expressing their desire to be freed like the Iraqis were to be by Bush.


    -- My suggestion to him and to you is this - take a walk in the heartland of America You will hear plenty of Intelligent Creationist and End Timers cheering for Armageddon Those are also teh every same who want Americans die for Israel.


    But on a different level- any opinion matters That is why you have election may be Israel should ask Bedoun to choose

    “That means nothing”… Fair enough. I just think there is a place on UR threads for tossing in not too tendentious information which might help to loosen up closed minds, or merely be of interest.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    I have heard one well known uncompromising supporter of Israel suggest a peace plan that might well be that, not of Israel (how do you determine when a plan can be called Israel's plan?) but 0f some hardline Likudniks. It is to defeat the Palestinians so they accept that they are defeated and have no alternative to peace. Whether or not that is true you have so far failed to deal with what Israelis and their supporters would say was the key point. What peace plan put forward by anyone can be worth the paper its written on if Israel is still not recognised as a legal fixture as an independent state? Hamas and Hezbollah are only the currently most active of enemies who want to destroy the state of Israel. Then there is the question of whether Israel should be able to exist securely as a Jewish state** which may be objectionable to most Western sensibilities but obviously makes sense if they do not want to be submerged by Palestinian fertility; cp. Fiji and its Indians.

    Given all that, given the fact that you despise experts without having any basis for claiming authority for your opinion and given your demand that Israel put forward a peace plan, what sort of peace plan would meet with your approval and what reason have you to suggest that any peace plan could succeed?

    **I have heard a Bedouin leader in Israel, who was also the local mayor, deny Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state!

    ** I also have heard a Bedouin leader in Israel… ”

    That means nothing I can pull some rabid rabbits out of Israeli hat and show some real racist settlers occupiers .Actually you can show that easily .

    I read Friedman once saying how the he was surprised and encouraged to hear some traders in Syrian souk getting involved in democratic process , pro American stance and expressing their desire to be freed like the Iraqis were to be by Bush.

    – My suggestion to him and to you is this – take a walk in the heartland of America You will hear plenty of Intelligent Creationist and End Timers cheering for Armageddon Those are also teh every same who want Americans die for Israel.

    But on a different level- any opinion matters That is why you have election may be Israel should ask Bedoun to choose

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    "That means nothing"... Fair enough. I just think there is a place on UR threads for tossing in not too tendentious information which might help to loosen up closed minds, or merely be of interest.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Art says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    "Don’t you see that ?

    Listen to yourself….you sound so pathetic…its almost tragic"

    It is really foolish of someone with your limitations of intellect and information to throw in insults on top of emotional waffling and total lack of forensic precision. Let me in return size you up with a free personality evaluation. You are, I take it, a failed candidate for entry to a run of the mill law school who has read up a bit of law and likes to talk about it albeit in an amateurish way. I had thought you might have then become a clergyman, maybe Episcopal, but your uncouth and wild words about "bogus fraud", "hasbara bullshit" etc. leads me to see you as a drop out from theological college too, perhaps advised by the Rector that you didn't seem to have the temperament or vocation for service as pastor or priest.

    You refer to "experts" in a totally unspecific but contemptuous way as if you had some basis for doing so. Yet you don't even have sufficient knowledge of the limited area that I was raising, speculatively, not dogmatically, to indicate that you are aware of David Pryce-Jones's very considerable claim to be listened to on the problems of Arab Muslim societies. To offer your unreasoned but assertive opinions (embodied in typically nonsensical comparison of questions about shame-honor culture with questions about the origin of some anthrax bacilli) on Middle Eastern matters without having heard of David Pryce-Jones and knowing what he has worked on for over 50 years is only a tad less crass than offering opinions on the Middle East without knowing who Bernard Lewis is (or Edward Said for that matter I say through gritted teeth). I don't know whether the problems of dealing with people imbued or leading people imbued with shame-honor culture is critical or even in the end important but I did you the courtesy of thinking you might be interested in the light that consideration of it might throw on the problems of peace for Palestine. It seems you are not interested in anything that does not give you a warm and fuzzy feeling or relieve your angst about the state of the world.

    Wizard of Mordecai,

    Here is the Big Mordecai – Netanyahu – killing peace.

    Your Welcome – Art

    Netanyahu Frets Over How To tackle French Peace Plan

    By Jonathan Cook

    June 07, 2016 “Information Clearing House” – “The National” – In a familiar muddying of the waters, Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu has spent the past week talking up peace while fiercely criticising Friday’s summit in France – the only diplomatic initiative on the horizon.

    As foreign ministers from 29 nations arrived for a one-day meeting in Paris, Mr Netanyahu dusted off the tired argument that any sign of diplomatic support for Palestinians would encourage from them “extreme demands”.

    France hopes the meeting will serve as a prelude to launching a peace process later in the year. French president Francois Hollande said he hoped to achieve a “peace [that] will be solid, sustainable and under international supervision”.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article44827.htm

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    So????
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    I have heard one well known uncompromising supporter of Israel suggest a peace plan that might well be that, not of Israel (how do you determine when a plan can be called Israel's plan?) but 0f some hardline Likudniks. It is to defeat the Palestinians so they accept that they are defeated and have no alternative to peace. Whether or not that is true you have so far failed to deal with what Israelis and their supporters would say was the key point. What peace plan put forward by anyone can be worth the paper its written on if Israel is still not recognised as a legal fixture as an independent state? Hamas and Hezbollah are only the currently most active of enemies who want to destroy the state of Israel. Then there is the question of whether Israel should be able to exist securely as a Jewish state** which may be objectionable to most Western sensibilities but obviously makes sense if they do not want to be submerged by Palestinian fertility; cp. Fiji and its Indians.

    Given all that, given the fact that you despise experts without having any basis for claiming authority for your opinion and given your demand that Israel put forward a peace plan, what sort of peace plan would meet with your approval and what reason have you to suggest that any peace plan could succeed?

    **I have heard a Bedouin leader in Israel, who was also the local mayor, deny Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state!

    if you want my conception of an equitable and fair resolution to the conflict .

    Here goes:

    Palestinians (and their descendants) who were forced out in 48 agree to relinquish their Right of Return. For so doing, they receive a “robust” compensation package and the right to settle anywhere in the new state of Palestine.

    Israel, if it wishes to retain USE of the Golan, offers to “lease” the land from its legal owner, Syria, for 99 years. In return, Syria receives a lump sum payment every ten years, and royalties from whatever mining , or drilling that occurs within the territory.

    Israel is more than welcome to rebuild its Temple, but should avoid, at all cost , building it ON TOP OF the Dome of the Rock. there are much less “incendiary” places to erect such a structure.

    The 67 lines should function as a clear guideline to establishing borders for both Israel and Palestine.

    Once those borders are established, the wall should be torn down.(it is disgraceful and a huge eyesore).

    Control of ALL of Jerusalem (East and West) should be under a tri-partisan committee composed of equal numbers of Israelis, Palestinians, and UN appointed overseers. Revenues from tourism into a Jerusalem (at Peace) should be distributed equitably among Palestine and Israel.

    Settlements within the OPT since 67, should , for the most part, be abandoned. Many that choose not to abandon their settlement can incorporate into Palestine, but must exist under Palestinian law, Palestinian jurisdiction, and pay taxes to Palestine.
    Large settlement blocs close to or adjacent to Israels recognized border can be merged into Israel, but there must be fair compensation to Palestine for the land and water rights.

    Gaza can retain full ownership of its offshore gas reserves, but it can offer free gas to Israel in return for Israel sharing its desalinization technology and helping to rebuild Gaza’s decimated infrastructure,

    Two nations wholly at peace, living side by side, without fear.Where people are free to come and go as they please, Private property rights as well as the right of ones beliefs are equal for everybody….anyone can buy or sell land anywhere…as long as the price is right.

    No more stabbings, shootings, bombings,or beatings. No more house demolitions or bus explosions…no more hate…no more fear…no more war…

    A land at Peace….. A” Holy” land.

    Its not really that hard to make it happen.

    JUST DO IT.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I couldn't agree more except for your penultimate sentence which is obviously divorced from observable reality.

    The problem is mindsets (including versions of reality: ancient, modern and theological) that are incompatible with easy agreement. The shame-honor culture problem is only a small part of that.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    I have heard one well known uncompromising supporter of Israel suggest a peace plan that might well be that, not of Israel (how do you determine when a plan can be called Israel's plan?) but 0f some hardline Likudniks. It is to defeat the Palestinians so they accept that they are defeated and have no alternative to peace. Whether or not that is true you have so far failed to deal with what Israelis and their supporters would say was the key point. What peace plan put forward by anyone can be worth the paper its written on if Israel is still not recognised as a legal fixture as an independent state? Hamas and Hezbollah are only the currently most active of enemies who want to destroy the state of Israel. Then there is the question of whether Israel should be able to exist securely as a Jewish state** which may be objectionable to most Western sensibilities but obviously makes sense if they do not want to be submerged by Palestinian fertility; cp. Fiji and its Indians.

    Given all that, given the fact that you despise experts without having any basis for claiming authority for your opinion and given your demand that Israel put forward a peace plan, what sort of peace plan would meet with your approval and what reason have you to suggest that any peace plan could succeed?

    **I have heard a Bedouin leader in Israel, who was also the local mayor, deny Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state!

    Mr Wizard,

    For the first forty years of my life, I adored Israel. Just the idea of returning to ones home after two thousand years…two thousand years!..The idea of rising from the ashes of the Holocaust, …and after centuries of prejudice, pogroms and hate, to reclaim and rebuild a home and a country of ones own…was a great narrative..was a “miracle” for me …..One which I embraced my whole life.

    I still do.(in many ways)

    But I was also taught it was a “land without a people for a people without a land”.

    When I was first informed that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, (who had been living there for centuries) were brutally forced out( with scores massacred in the process.)….I refused to believe it.

    Absolutely refused to believe it , Wizard.

    I refused to believe it because the “experts” told me it never happened.

    When ,for years, claims were made that Israel was actually building “settlements” in the Palestinian territories, I refused to believe it…

    Absolutely refused to believe it, Wizard.

    because the “experts” told me it wasn’t true.

    When the “experts” informed me Iraq was an “imminent threat” to the US, and if we did not attack ASAP there would be mushroom clouds over our country…I believed it.

    When the “experts” informed us it was Saddam who stealthily deposited “anthrax” in Tom Brokaws newsroom and Senator Leahys office…I believed it !

    I believed the “experts”, Wizard, because I didn’t think they could ever lie to us about things like this..

    And then, one by one , the curtain began being pulled back, and all the experts I had trusted , all the experts I had relied on, turned out be total liars and total frauds.

    So I don’t really place any trust in what they say, anymore, because when I did, I was deceived.

    Does this make sense to you ?….because it sure makes sense to me.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Yes it makes sense in the sense that i believe you because it is unfortunately observable in a lot of good naive people who eventually become disillusioned with institutions - churches most notably and faith in priests and teaching brothers in the Catholic church most notably.

    I seem to have been born and brought up to be sceptical so my disappointments haven't been so radical. Winston Churchill's increasingly emphasised imperfections don't eat away at me :-)

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    I give as much credence to these experts notion of an honor/shame culture(as an impediment to peace) as I do to the experts "certainty" it was Saddam's anthrax deposited in Tom Brokaw's office.

    In short, its all a lot of foul smelling hot air.

    Its all just an incessant stream of bogus fraud.

    All this time, effort and money they spend in concocting these constant multi-pronged streams of hasbara bullshit.

    Its all a farce now,

    There is Zero credibility left, Wizard...absolutely ZERO credibility.

    Don't you see that ?

    Listen to yourself....you sound so pathetic...its almost tragic.

    Every one of these so called '"experts" should be remaindered to federal prison, ASAP, and every penny of their assets, and their backers assets, should be clawed back to the U.S.treasury to pay back the humongous and unconscionable debt their heinous fraud has created.

    What a sick joke they all are..

    Truly.

    Make a PEACE PLAN....Get on with it.!....Cut out all the crap already...Enough is enough.

    “Don’t you see that ?

    Listen to yourself….you sound so pathetic…its almost tragic”

    It is really foolish of someone with your limitations of intellect and information to throw in insults on top of emotional waffling and total lack of forensic precision. Let me in return size you up with a free personality evaluation. You are, I take it, a failed candidate for entry to a run of the mill law school who has read up a bit of law and likes to talk about it albeit in an amateurish way. I had thought you might have then become a clergyman, maybe Episcopal, but your uncouth and wild words about “bogus fraud”, “hasbara bullshit” etc. leads me to see you as a drop out from theological college too, perhaps advised by the Rector that you didn’t seem to have the temperament or vocation for service as pastor or priest.

    You refer to “experts” in a totally unspecific but contemptuous way as if you had some basis for doing so. Yet you don’t even have sufficient knowledge of the limited area that I was raising, speculatively, not dogmatically, to indicate that you are aware of David Pryce-Jones’s very considerable claim to be listened to on the problems of Arab Muslim societies. To offer your unreasoned but assertive opinions (embodied in typically nonsensical comparison of questions about shame-honor culture with questions about the origin of some anthrax bacilli) on Middle Eastern matters without having heard of David Pryce-Jones and knowing what he has worked on for over 50 years is only a tad less crass than offering opinions on the Middle East without knowing who Bernard Lewis is (or Edward Said for that matter I say through gritted teeth). I don’t know whether the problems of dealing with people imbued or leading people imbued with shame-honor culture is critical or even in the end important but I did you the courtesy of thinking you might be interested in the light that consideration of it might throw on the problems of peace for Palestine. It seems you are not interested in anything that does not give you a warm and fuzzy feeling or relieve your angst about the state of the world.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    Wizard of Mordecai,

    Here is the Big Mordecai - Netanyahu - killing peace.

    Your Welcome - Art


    Netanyahu Frets Over How To tackle French Peace Plan

    By Jonathan Cook

    June 07, 2016 "Information Clearing House" - "The National" - In a familiar muddying of the waters, Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu has spent the past week talking up peace while fiercely criticising Friday’s summit in France – the only diplomatic initiative on the horizon.

    As foreign ministers from 29 nations arrived for a one-day meeting in Paris, Mr Netanyahu dusted off the tired argument that any sign of diplomatic support for Palestinians would encourage from them “extreme demands".

    France hopes the meeting will serve as a prelude to launching a peace process later in the year. French president Francois Hollande said he hoped to achieve a “peace [that] will be solid, sustainable and under international supervision".

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article44827.htm
     

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    I think its important, as we discuss all these issues, flesh them out,and really try to get at the essential arguments...it is important to understand, above all else,

    that Israel has NO PLAN FOR PEACE, whatsoever .

    NONE.


    What does this say ?

    What does it mean ?

    Does it mean that Israel is as determined to exterminate Palestine, as the Nazi's were, to exterminate the Jews ?

    Can it be possible that it does ?

    And if it does.....why is that okay ?

    I have heard one well known uncompromising supporter of Israel suggest a peace plan that might well be that, not of Israel (how do you determine when a plan can be called Israel’s plan?) but 0f some hardline Likudniks. It is to defeat the Palestinians so they accept that they are defeated and have no alternative to peace. Whether or not that is true you have so far failed to deal with what Israelis and their supporters would say was the key point. What peace plan put forward by anyone can be worth the paper its written on if Israel is still not recognised as a legal fixture as an independent state? Hamas and Hezbollah are only the currently most active of enemies who want to destroy the state of Israel. Then there is the question of whether Israel should be able to exist securely as a Jewish state** which may be objectionable to most Western sensibilities but obviously makes sense if they do not want to be submerged by Palestinian fertility; cp. Fiji and its Indians.

    Given all that, given the fact that you despise experts without having any basis for claiming authority for your opinion and given your demand that Israel put forward a peace plan, what sort of peace plan would meet with your approval and what reason have you to suggest that any peace plan could succeed?

    **I have heard a Bedouin leader in Israel, who was also the local mayor, deny Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state!

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Mr Wizard,

    For the first forty years of my life, I adored Israel. Just the idea of returning to ones home after two thousand years...two thousand years!..The idea of rising from the ashes of the Holocaust, ...and after centuries of prejudice, pogroms and hate, to reclaim and rebuild a home and a country of ones own...was a great narrative..was a "miracle" for me .....One which I embraced my whole life.

    I still do.(in many ways)

    But I was also taught it was a "land without a people for a people without a land".

    When I was first informed that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, (who had been living there for centuries) were brutally forced out( with scores massacred in the process.)....I refused to believe it.

    Absolutely refused to believe it , Wizard.

    I refused to believe it because the "experts" told me it never happened.

    When ,for years, claims were made that Israel was actually building "settlements" in the Palestinian territories, I refused to believe it...

    Absolutely refused to believe it, Wizard.

    because the "experts" told me it wasn't true.

    When the "experts" informed me Iraq was an "imminent threat" to the US, and if we did not attack ASAP there would be mushroom clouds over our country...I believed it.

    When the "experts" informed us it was Saddam who stealthily deposited "anthrax" in Tom Brokaws newsroom and Senator Leahys office...I believed it !

    I believed the "experts", Wizard, because I didn't think they could ever lie to us about things like this..

    And then, one by one , the curtain began being pulled back, and all the experts I had trusted , all the experts I had relied on, turned out be total liars and total frauds.

    So I don't really place any trust in what they say, anymore, because when I did, I was deceived.

    Does this make sense to you ?....because it sure makes sense to me.
    , @alexander
    if you want my conception of an equitable and fair resolution to the conflict .

    Here goes:

    Palestinians (and their descendants) who were forced out in 48 agree to relinquish their Right of Return. For so doing, they receive a "robust" compensation package and the right to settle anywhere in the new state of Palestine.


    Israel, if it wishes to retain USE of the Golan, offers to "lease" the land from its legal owner, Syria, for 99 years. In return, Syria receives a lump sum payment every ten years, and royalties from whatever mining , or drilling that occurs within the territory.


    Israel is more than welcome to rebuild its Temple, but should avoid, at all cost , building it ON TOP OF the Dome of the Rock. there are much less "incendiary" places to erect such a structure.

    The 67 lines should function as a clear guideline to establishing borders for both Israel and Palestine.

    Once those borders are established, the wall should be torn down.(it is disgraceful and a huge eyesore).

    Control of ALL of Jerusalem (East and West) should be under a tri-partisan committee composed of equal numbers of Israelis, Palestinians, and UN appointed overseers. Revenues from tourism into a Jerusalem (at Peace) should be distributed equitably among Palestine and Israel.

    Settlements within the OPT since 67, should , for the most part, be abandoned. Many that choose not to abandon their settlement can incorporate into Palestine, but must exist under Palestinian law, Palestinian jurisdiction, and pay taxes to Palestine.
    Large settlement blocs close to or adjacent to Israels recognized border can be merged into Israel, but there must be fair compensation to Palestine for the land and water rights.

    Gaza can retain full ownership of its offshore gas reserves, but it can offer free gas to Israel in return for Israel sharing its desalinization technology and helping to rebuild Gaza's decimated infrastructure,

    Two nations wholly at peace, living side by side, without fear.Where people are free to come and go as they please, Private property rights as well as the right of ones beliefs are equal for everybody....anyone can buy or sell land anywhere...as long as the price is right.

    No more stabbings, shootings, bombings,or beatings. No more house demolitions or bus explosions...no more hate...no more fear...no more war...

    A land at Peace..... A" Holy" land.

    Its not really that hard to make it happen.

    JUST DO IT.
    , @bunga
    ** I also have heard a Bedouin leader in Israel... "

    That means nothing I can pull some rabid rabbits out of Israeli hat and show some real racist settlers occupiers .Actually you can show that easily .

    I read Friedman once saying how the he was surprised and encouraged to hear some traders in Syrian souk getting involved in democratic process , pro American stance and expressing their desire to be freed like the Iraqis were to be by Bush.


    -- My suggestion to him and to you is this - take a walk in the heartland of America You will hear plenty of Intelligent Creationist and End Timers cheering for Armageddon Those are also teh every same who want Americans die for Israel.


    But on a different level- any opinion matters That is why you have election may be Israel should ask Bedoun to choose
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @bunga
    @Make a PEACE PLAN….


    http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/06/05/gov-cuomo-decrees-boycott-blacklist-silence-global-bds-movement-palestinian-rights

    -"Similar bills have been introduced in both houses of the New York Legislature, and a Republican-sponsored bill passed the state Senate, which that party leads, in January.

    But on Sunday, Mr. Cuomo, a Democrat, flexed his executive power — a more familiar demonstration in the governor’s second term — joking that passing legislation can “often be a tedious affair,” and saying instead he wanted “immediate action” on B.D.S., while challenging other governors in other states to do the same."

    Unlikely to shape the direction anytime soon as long as legislators are allowed to be whispered by the Zionists into getting into the acts of one-upmanship. What did Cumo do? He just told the Zionist -I am your man ,no once comes close . What did the Senate do ?They just told the Zionist-dont be deceived by Cumo-We forced him to act in your favor . Zionist whispered again- dont worry,both of you would do fine , we will shower you with the dollar bills koshered in Israel from your Fed and Traesury , you see recycling is working for all of us .

    May I say something in defense of our good Governor,

    I have been following all his initiatives since he took office.

    and they have all been EXCELLENT, absolutely first rate initiatives.

    Great ideas, great legislation, and all around A-plus work.

    I love our Governor, he has been aces…absolutely aces.

    Top notch statesmanship.

    But even if you adore Israel, right down to your marrow, why enact something so blatantly unconstitutional ?

    If you cannot pass a law in favor of Israel, that doesn’t trample on all Americans sacred rights,
    DON”T PASS IT.

    It looks Bad, really bad …and merely doubles down on the growing “evidence” of a creeping Fascistic Supremacy (which seems to be bubbling up just about everywhere these days).

    I wish to God, our Governor had just passed into state law,by executive decree, Israels first official PEACE PLAN.

    Now that would be something to celebrate !

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Art says:
    @alexander
    I am not sure if you hate Hitler, quite enough, Art....perhaps you should write it a few more times.


    But while we are discussing Hitler, the thought of genocide does come up.

    And speaking of Genocide ...

    Can any of us wonder what is in store for Gaza, if not "genocide" ?

    Will there be three to four more liquidations, within the next six years....maybe ten ?

    Will the final Israeli blitzkrieg on Gaza accompany a reoccupation, and the full "lebensraum"of the entire enclave by 2020, if not before ?

    Will Israel set up massive internment centers for the surviving Palestinian untermenchen ?.

    Will there be extensive "controlled demolitions" of the majority of remaining structures ?
    (that all fall "perfectly" within their own foot print ?).

    Will the casino magnates and real estate moguls roll in ?

    Will the once beleaguered coastal enclave be transformed into a glistening ,.... gleaming..... symbol of Israeli triumph and supremacy, once all the "seeds of amalek" have been fully exterminated ?

    Will all our obedient and dutiful Senators , Congressmen, Governors and Mayors be "junketed" to this New "city on the water"...and given the all expenses paid, first crack at the baccarat table.?

    When , pray tell, will the holocaust of Gaza be complete ?

    Does anyone know ?

    Can anyone one tell me if ,indeed, Israel has any "other" plan , than this ?

    I am not sure if you hate Hitler, quite enough, Art….perhaps you should write it a few more times.

    Well we all know who we are dealing with – they can twist anything. Just for good measure. I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler

    Can anyone one tell me if ,indeed, Israel has any “other” plan , than this

    The only people on this site who talk “peace” are the Jews (misleading false flags – they know better). The rest of us know that the killing is coming.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Interesting.

    I have not read the legislation, so I do not know what it says.

    But isn't any legislation that prohibits the boycott of something, simultaneously a legislation that prohibits the boycott of anything...or ....everything, for that matter ?

    Isn't this fundamentally unconstitutional ?

    ....an assault on the very principles the first amendment provides us, as a nation of free men ?

    I imagine if this were ever challenged..and made its way to the supreme court..it would be shot down....

    But I suppose by that time there will be no Palestine "left" to boycott about.

    Right ?

    God knows.These psychopaths are seekers of money They seek money
    They sanction Iran Libya,Iraq,Somalia and Syria. for money They sanction those who want t to boycott Israel. So if you are an employee of NY State or county , you cant say that you support boycott of the goods that come out of West Bank
    If you say so they can target your pension job salary and who knows what not .
    They dodn’t have the words and phrases So they go to the Giver and ask for help on how to frame the argument , they seek help in wording and rewriting .

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I am not sure if you hate Hitler, quite enough, Art….perhaps you should write it a few more times.

    But while we are discussing Hitler, the thought of genocide does come up.

    And speaking of Genocide …

    Can any of us wonder what is in store for Gaza, if not “genocide” ?

    Will there be three to four more liquidations, within the next six years….maybe ten ?

    Will the final Israeli blitzkrieg on Gaza accompany a reoccupation, and the full “lebensraum”of the entire enclave by 2020, if not before ?

    Will Israel set up massive internment centers for the surviving Palestinian untermenchen ?.

    Will there be extensive “controlled demolitions” of the majority of remaining structures ?
    (that all fall “perfectly” within their own foot print ?).

    Will the casino magnates and real estate moguls roll in ?

    Will the once beleaguered coastal enclave be transformed into a glistening ,…. gleaming….. symbol of Israeli triumph and supremacy, once all the “seeds of amalek” have been fully exterminated ?

    Will all our obedient and dutiful Senators , Congressmen, Governors and Mayors be “junketed” to this New “city on the water”…and given the all expenses paid, first crack at the baccarat table.?

    When , pray tell, will the holocaust of Gaza be complete ?

    Does anyone know ?

    Can anyone one tell me if ,indeed, Israel has any “other” plan , than this ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    I am not sure if you hate Hitler, quite enough, Art….perhaps you should write it a few more times.

    Well we all know who we are dealing with – they can twist anything. Just for good measure. I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler

    Can anyone one tell me if ,indeed, Israel has any “other” plan , than this

    The only people on this site who talk “peace” are the Jews (misleading false flags – they know better). The rest of us know that the killing is coming.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    I can say one thing to a certainty,

    If the ethnic cleansing's, exterminations, land thefts and property confiscations committed against the Jews in Nazi Germany were a heinous and unjust evil,.... which they were, ....then how can the very same crimes being committed against the Palestinians , today, be no less evil ?

    How can they ?

    Can someone please explain this ?

    did you even read the article, Alexander?

    would you get off the goddam lebensraum, Nazi = evil therefore _____ hobby horse?

    don’t you get it that you hand Israelists a get out of jail free card when you employ that analogy?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Art says:
    @alexander
    I can say one thing to a certainty,

    If the ethnic cleansing's, exterminations, land thefts and property confiscations committed against the Jews in Nazi Germany were a heinous and unjust evil,.... which they were, ....then how can the very same crimes being committed against the Palestinians , today, be no less evil ?

    How can they ?

    Can someone please explain this ?

    Saw Denis Prager on Book TV (Cspan2) – he is a Jew chauvinist talk show host – who thinks the Jew do no wrong and that Jews are the fount of good that the world needs so much. He was going on about the Jew Ten Commandments. (Of course those commandments where lifted from the Egyptians.)

    A caller asked about all the wanton killing that the Jew tribe did in the Old Testament. He didn’t answer the question.

    Jews have an amazing capacity to ignore facts that do not favor them.

    Here is Hitler on the subject. I hate Hitler!

    Mein Kampf – 1925

    Anyone who picks up a Jewish newspaper in the morning and does not see himself slandered in it has not made profitable use of the previous day.” –

    The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid. If all this didn’t help, they pretended not to understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes which, if you accepted them, they immediately related to entirely different matters, and then, if again attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were talking about. Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your fingers, but in the next moment collected again. But if you really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn’t help but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day. The Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn’t remember a thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous day.
    Sometimes I stood there thunderstruck.

    I didn’t know what to be more amazed at: the agility of their tongues or their virtuosity at lying.

    I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    I can say one thing to a certainty,

    If the ethnic cleansing's, exterminations, land thefts and property confiscations committed against the Jews in Nazi Germany were a heinous and unjust evil,.... which they were, ....then how can the very same crimes being committed against the Palestinians , today, be no less evil ?

    How can they ?

    Can someone please explain this ?

    I think its important, as we discuss all these issues, flesh them out,and really try to get at the essential arguments…it is important to understand, above all else,

    that Israel has NO PLAN FOR PEACE, whatsoever .

    NONE.

    What does this say ?

    What does it mean ?

    Does it mean that Israel is as determined to exterminate Palestine, as the Nazi’s were, to exterminate the Jews ?

    Can it be possible that it does ?

    And if it does…..why is that okay ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I have heard one well known uncompromising supporter of Israel suggest a peace plan that might well be that, not of Israel (how do you determine when a plan can be called Israel's plan?) but 0f some hardline Likudniks. It is to defeat the Palestinians so they accept that they are defeated and have no alternative to peace. Whether or not that is true you have so far failed to deal with what Israelis and their supporters would say was the key point. What peace plan put forward by anyone can be worth the paper its written on if Israel is still not recognised as a legal fixture as an independent state? Hamas and Hezbollah are only the currently most active of enemies who want to destroy the state of Israel. Then there is the question of whether Israel should be able to exist securely as a Jewish state** which may be objectionable to most Western sensibilities but obviously makes sense if they do not want to be submerged by Palestinian fertility; cp. Fiji and its Indians.

    Given all that, given the fact that you despise experts without having any basis for claiming authority for your opinion and given your demand that Israel put forward a peace plan, what sort of peace plan would meet with your approval and what reason have you to suggest that any peace plan could succeed?

    **I have heard a Bedouin leader in Israel, who was also the local mayor, deny Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state!

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    Alexander,

    Do you see, as I do, the similar patterns and parallels between I/P and this story --

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/a-major-native-american-site-is-being-looted-will-obama-risk-armed-conflict-to-save-it/2016/06/05/bf2dfcfc-1dff-11e6-8c7b-6931e66333e7_story.html

    I can say one thing to a certainty,

    If the ethnic cleansing’s, exterminations, land thefts and property confiscations committed against the Jews in Nazi Germany were a heinous and unjust evil,…. which they were, ….then how can the very same crimes being committed against the Palestinians , today, be no less evil ?

    How can they ?

    Can someone please explain this ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    I think its important, as we discuss all these issues, flesh them out,and really try to get at the essential arguments...it is important to understand, above all else,

    that Israel has NO PLAN FOR PEACE, whatsoever .

    NONE.


    What does this say ?

    What does it mean ?

    Does it mean that Israel is as determined to exterminate Palestine, as the Nazi's were, to exterminate the Jews ?

    Can it be possible that it does ?

    And if it does.....why is that okay ?

    , @Art
    Saw Denis Prager on Book TV (Cspan2) – he is a Jew chauvinist talk show host – who thinks the Jew do no wrong and that Jews are the fount of good that the world needs so much. He was going on about the Jew Ten Commandments. (Of course those commandments where lifted from the Egyptians.)

    A caller asked about all the wanton killing that the Jew tribe did in the Old Testament. He didn’t answer the question.

    Jews have an amazing capacity to ignore facts that do not favor them.

    Here is Hitler on the subject. I hate Hitler!


    Mein Kampf - 1925

    Anyone who picks up a Jewish newspaper in the morning and does not see himself slandered in it has not made profitable use of the previous day." -

    The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid. If all this didn't help, they pretended not to understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes which, if you accepted them, they immediately related to entirely different matters, and then, if again attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were talking about. Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your fingers, but in the next moment collected again. But if you really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn't help but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day. The Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous day.
    Sometimes I stood there thunderstruck.

    I didn't know what to be more amazed at: the agility of their tongues or their virtuosity at lying.

     

    I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler I hate Hitler
    , @SolontoCroesus
    did you even read the article, Alexander?

    would you get off the goddam lebensraum, Nazi = evil therefore _____ hobby horse?

    don't you get it that you hand Israelists a get out of jail free card when you employ that analogy?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @bunga
    @Make a PEACE PLAN….


    http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/06/05/gov-cuomo-decrees-boycott-blacklist-silence-global-bds-movement-palestinian-rights

    -"Similar bills have been introduced in both houses of the New York Legislature, and a Republican-sponsored bill passed the state Senate, which that party leads, in January.

    But on Sunday, Mr. Cuomo, a Democrat, flexed his executive power — a more familiar demonstration in the governor’s second term — joking that passing legislation can “often be a tedious affair,” and saying instead he wanted “immediate action” on B.D.S., while challenging other governors in other states to do the same."

    Unlikely to shape the direction anytime soon as long as legislators are allowed to be whispered by the Zionists into getting into the acts of one-upmanship. What did Cumo do? He just told the Zionist -I am your man ,no once comes close . What did the Senate do ?They just told the Zionist-dont be deceived by Cumo-We forced him to act in your favor . Zionist whispered again- dont worry,both of you would do fine , we will shower you with the dollar bills koshered in Israel from your Fed and Traesury , you see recycling is working for all of us .

    Interesting.

    I have not read the legislation, so I do not know what it says.

    But isn’t any legislation that prohibits the boycott of something, simultaneously a legislation that prohibits the boycott of anything…or ….everything, for that matter ?

    Isn’t this fundamentally unconstitutional ?

    ….an assault on the very principles the first amendment provides us, as a nation of free men ?

    I imagine if this were ever challenged..and made its way to the supreme court..it would be shot down….

    But I suppose by that time there will be no Palestine “left” to boycott about.

    Right ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @bunga
    God knows.These psychopaths are seekers of money They seek money
    They sanction Iran Libya,Iraq,Somalia and Syria. for money They sanction those who want t to boycott Israel. So if you are an employee of NY State or county , you cant say that you support boycott of the goods that come out of West Bank
    If you say so they can target your pension job salary and who knows what not .
    They dodn't have the words and phrases So they go to the Giver and ask for help on how to frame the argument , they seek help in wording and rewriting .
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Art says:

    Esther and Mordecai live on and on – the darlings of deception and death for tribal Jew power

    NY Gov. Signs Pro-Israel exec. Order Punishing BDS Boycott Movement

    Andrew Cuomo pushed through discriminatory policy to punish groups that boycott Israel for Palestinian human rights

    By Ben Norton
    June 05, 2016 “Information Clearing House” – “Salon” – New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo signed a pro-Israel executive order on Sunday that will punish people and groups who support a boycott of Israel on behalf of Palestinian human rights..

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article44815.htm

    The Jew laugh at free speech.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    I give as much credence to these experts notion of an honor/shame culture(as an impediment to peace) as I do to the experts "certainty" it was Saddam's anthrax deposited in Tom Brokaw's office.

    In short, its all a lot of foul smelling hot air.

    Its all just an incessant stream of bogus fraud.

    All this time, effort and money they spend in concocting these constant multi-pronged streams of hasbara bullshit.

    Its all a farce now,

    There is Zero credibility left, Wizard...absolutely ZERO credibility.

    Don't you see that ?

    Listen to yourself....you sound so pathetic...its almost tragic.

    Every one of these so called '"experts" should be remaindered to federal prison, ASAP, and every penny of their assets, and their backers assets, should be clawed back to the U.S.treasury to pay back the humongous and unconscionable debt their heinous fraud has created.

    What a sick joke they all are..

    Truly.

    Make a PEACE PLAN....Get on with it.!....Cut out all the crap already...Enough is enough.

    @Make a PEACE PLAN….

    http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/06/05/gov-cuomo-decrees-boycott-blacklist-silence-global-bds-movement-palestinian-rights

    -”Similar bills have been introduced in both houses of the New York Legislature, and a Republican-sponsored bill passed the state Senate, which that party leads, in January.

    But on Sunday, Mr. Cuomo, a Democrat, flexed his executive power — a more familiar demonstration in the governor’s second term — joking that passing legislation can “often be a tedious affair,” and saying instead he wanted “immediate action” on B.D.S., while challenging other governors in other states to do the same.”

    Unlikely to shape the direction anytime soon as long as legislators are allowed to be whispered by the Zionists into getting into the acts of one-upmanship. What did Cumo do? He just told the Zionist -I am your man ,no once comes close . What did the Senate do ?They just told the Zionist-dont be deceived by Cumo-We forced him to act in your favor . Zionist whispered again- dont worry,both of you would do fine , we will shower you with the dollar bills koshered in Israel from your Fed and Traesury , you see recycling is working for all of us .

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Interesting.

    I have not read the legislation, so I do not know what it says.

    But isn't any legislation that prohibits the boycott of something, simultaneously a legislation that prohibits the boycott of anything...or ....everything, for that matter ?

    Isn't this fundamentally unconstitutional ?

    ....an assault on the very principles the first amendment provides us, as a nation of free men ?

    I imagine if this were ever challenged..and made its way to the supreme court..it would be shot down....

    But I suppose by that time there will be no Palestine "left" to boycott about.

    Right ?

    , @alexander
    May I say something in defense of our good Governor,

    I have been following all his initiatives since he took office.

    and they have all been EXCELLENT, absolutely first rate initiatives.

    Great ideas, great legislation, and all around A-plus work.

    I love our Governor, he has been aces...absolutely aces.

    Top notch statesmanship.

    But even if you adore Israel, right down to your marrow, why enact something so blatantly unconstitutional ?

    If you cannot pass a law in favor of Israel, that doesn't trample on all Americans sacred rights,
    DON"T PASS IT.

    It looks Bad, really bad ...and merely doubles down on the growing "evidence" of a creeping Fascistic Supremacy (which seems to be bubbling up just about everywhere these days).

    I wish to God, our Governor had just passed into state law,by executive decree, Israels first official PEACE PLAN.

    Now that would be something to celebrate !

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • jew peace plan:

    talk, blame others, bomb, poison, maim, lie, steal, steal, steal, kill

    and

    use dumfuck amurderka as its gorilla in wars of destruction

    that is the jew peace plan

    when satan thought, “i will enter the world”

    appeared the jew

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    I give as much credence to these experts notion of an honor/shame culture(as an impediment to peace) as I do to the experts "certainty" it was Saddam's anthrax deposited in Tom Brokaw's office.

    In short, its all a lot of foul smelling hot air.

    Its all just an incessant stream of bogus fraud.

    All this time, effort and money they spend in concocting these constant multi-pronged streams of hasbara bullshit.

    Its all a farce now,

    There is Zero credibility left, Wizard...absolutely ZERO credibility.

    Don't you see that ?

    Listen to yourself....you sound so pathetic...its almost tragic.

    Every one of these so called '"experts" should be remaindered to federal prison, ASAP, and every penny of their assets, and their backers assets, should be clawed back to the U.S.treasury to pay back the humongous and unconscionable debt their heinous fraud has created.

    What a sick joke they all are..

    Truly.

    Make a PEACE PLAN....Get on with it.!....Cut out all the crap already...Enough is enough.
    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    I can say one thing to a certainty,

    If the ethnic cleansing's, exterminations, land thefts and property confiscations committed against the Jews in Nazi Germany were a heinous and unjust evil,.... which they were, ....then how can the very same crimes being committed against the Palestinians , today, be no less evil ?

    How can they ?

    Can someone please explain this ?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    Your reply is just one educated civilised amateur do-gooder chatting to another over dinner. I don't claim to greater expertise but do point out that i wasn't writing of "issues of shame and honor" which, as you say, "are not exclusive to others". I was referring to the problems possibly created by a shame/honor culture which I think I first heard specifically raised in relation to the problems of the Israelis doing a deal with the Palestinians by David Pryce-Jones who is, decidedly, no amateur.

    It marks a cultural difference with powerful effects as i understand it. Consider the honor killings within quite long established immigrant communities, principally Pakistani, in Britain. The suggestion is that the reasonable educated might negotiate but, behind or bubbling below them will be primitive young (egged on by old) traditionalist fanatics who will find a source of political power in rejecting the sellouts. Israelis point to the offers made by Ehud Barak which were rejected and, without accepting Israeli claims as the whole truth, that may be one reason why they see no hope of ultimately successful peacemaking negotiation with the Palestinians (and now have a government which won't try).

    The problem of young (opportunist) extremists can crop up anywhere. Another Third World example may be in South Africa which has similar demographics and unemployment, not to mention segregation, to Israel-Palestine. There seem to be plenty of efficient farmers who fear they will be driven out as the white farmers in Zimbabwe have been.

    I claim no anthropological or sociological expertise but do see utility in the distinction between the honour-shame cultures and those said to be based on guilt and responsibility (where, I suppose, judgment of oneself according to principle is more powerful than consideration of what others will think about one's status).

    I give as much credence to these experts notion of an honor/shame culture(as an impediment to peace) as I do to the experts “certainty” it was Saddam’s anthrax deposited in Tom Brokaw’s office.

    In short, its all a lot of foul smelling hot air.

    Its all just an incessant stream of bogus fraud.

    All this time, effort and money they spend in concocting these constant multi-pronged streams of hasbara bullshit.

    Its all a farce now,

    There is Zero credibility left, Wizard…absolutely ZERO credibility.

    Don’t you see that ?

    Listen to yourself….you sound so pathetic…its almost tragic.

    Every one of these so called ‘”experts” should be remaindered to federal prison, ASAP, and every penny of their assets, and their backers assets, should be clawed back to the U.S.treasury to pay back the humongous and unconscionable debt their heinous fraud has created.

    What a sick joke they all are..

    Truly.

    Make a PEACE PLAN….Get on with it.!….Cut out all the crap already…Enough is enough.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Alexander,

    Do you see, as I do, the similar patterns and parallels between I/P and this story --

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/a-major-native-american-site-is-being-looted-will-obama-risk-armed-conflict-to-save-it/2016/06/05/bf2dfcfc-1dff-11e6-8c7b-6931e66333e7_story.html
    , @bunga
    @Make a PEACE PLAN….


    http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/06/05/gov-cuomo-decrees-boycott-blacklist-silence-global-bds-movement-palestinian-rights

    -"Similar bills have been introduced in both houses of the New York Legislature, and a Republican-sponsored bill passed the state Senate, which that party leads, in January.

    But on Sunday, Mr. Cuomo, a Democrat, flexed his executive power — a more familiar demonstration in the governor’s second term — joking that passing legislation can “often be a tedious affair,” and saying instead he wanted “immediate action” on B.D.S., while challenging other governors in other states to do the same."

    Unlikely to shape the direction anytime soon as long as legislators are allowed to be whispered by the Zionists into getting into the acts of one-upmanship. What did Cumo do? He just told the Zionist -I am your man ,no once comes close . What did the Senate do ?They just told the Zionist-dont be deceived by Cumo-We forced him to act in your favor . Zionist whispered again- dont worry,both of you would do fine , we will shower you with the dollar bills koshered in Israel from your Fed and Traesury , you see recycling is working for all of us .
    , @Wizard of Oz
    "Don’t you see that ?

    Listen to yourself….you sound so pathetic…its almost tragic"

    It is really foolish of someone with your limitations of intellect and information to throw in insults on top of emotional waffling and total lack of forensic precision. Let me in return size you up with a free personality evaluation. You are, I take it, a failed candidate for entry to a run of the mill law school who has read up a bit of law and likes to talk about it albeit in an amateurish way. I had thought you might have then become a clergyman, maybe Episcopal, but your uncouth and wild words about "bogus fraud", "hasbara bullshit" etc. leads me to see you as a drop out from theological college too, perhaps advised by the Rector that you didn't seem to have the temperament or vocation for service as pastor or priest.

    You refer to "experts" in a totally unspecific but contemptuous way as if you had some basis for doing so. Yet you don't even have sufficient knowledge of the limited area that I was raising, speculatively, not dogmatically, to indicate that you are aware of David Pryce-Jones's very considerable claim to be listened to on the problems of Arab Muslim societies. To offer your unreasoned but assertive opinions (embodied in typically nonsensical comparison of questions about shame-honor culture with questions about the origin of some anthrax bacilli) on Middle Eastern matters without having heard of David Pryce-Jones and knowing what he has worked on for over 50 years is only a tad less crass than offering opinions on the Middle East without knowing who Bernard Lewis is (or Edward Said for that matter I say through gritted teeth). I don't know whether the problems of dealing with people imbued or leading people imbued with shame-honor culture is critical or even in the end important but I did you the courtesy of thinking you might be interested in the light that consideration of it might throw on the problems of peace for Palestine. It seems you are not interested in anything that does not give you a warm and fuzzy feeling or relieve your angst about the state of the world.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Art says:
    @iffen
    Only Zionism has a chance in Israel. Zionism is Israel – Israel is Zionism

    Now you're talking!

    Art:Only Zionism has a chance in Israel. Zionism is Israel – Israel is Zionism

    iffen: Now you’re talking!

    So the next logical question is “where does Zionism come from?” What is the base and foundation of Zionism?

    I say that it comes straight out of Jewish tradition. I say that Jewish culture leads to Zionism. I say that living the Jew culture makes one a Zionist. Not all Jews of every stripe are Zionists – but most are.

    The number one holiday for all Jews is Purim. It celebrates deception, war, and the power of killing.

    Here is the story of Purim: https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/mordecais-challenge-essay-war-leadership-purim/

    The short story is that Esther a Jewish princess in Persia turned the Kings head with her feminine wiles and became queen. She then had a Persian potentate hanged that opposed the Jew tribes. Mordecai a Jew strongman replaced the hanged potentate and murdered 75,000 Persians. He did it, not because it was necessary to maintain power – but show to the other power centers in Persia, who was boss. Esther and Mordecai controlled the king.

    They set into motion the idea that the way to Jew power was deception and killing. Hmm – does that not sound like Zionism today?

    Today Esther is AIPAC and the US government is the Persian king. And Netanyahu is Mordecai maintaining leverage and power over the king. Esther and Mordecai – AIPAC and Netanyahu.

    p.s. Even the Jew god kills children for them – Passover – celebrated for three thousand years.

    p.s. Death to ones enemies is big in the Jew tradition.

    p.s. Jew Zionism means death or capitulation for Gentiles.

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  • KA says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    I don't think I disagree with any of that except that that there are probably more obstacles to peace coming about than either of us can fully understand or imagine. (You haven't mentioned for example the Arab shame/honour culture and its significance, or the almost equally intractable problems of Israeli donestic politics compounded by the ethnic changes in Israel since the origins in Zionist socialism). However I further question your enthusiasm for internatiinal law as being of much relevance. What, for example, is the consequence of the West Bank having been under Jordanian control before the 1967 war?

    “Arab shame/honor culture”.
    You just reminded me the power of the projection . Haven’t we been hearing from the neocons and from their favorites presidential hopefuls how America has lost the respect ? “No one respects us anymore “-cries the pack of the wolves before after signing the draft for next round of war .

    As the neocons and liberal interventionist are destroying the religious influences in different or every facet of the society,they are busy building their own hymns,chants,rituals,and are busy shoveling those parables for the uninititated on the rest with force,forces of money , lure of future Nirvana of being chosen to lead the masses and promises of belonging to the Axis of the Willing or the mafia with mandate for R2 P and cautioning us against the presence of the Devil also known as Axis of Evil or Rogue Dictators .

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Issues of shame and honor are not exclusive to Arabs, Wizard.

    They seem to be traits universal to just about everyone.

    The 2002 Arab peace initiative, fully conforms to all the international mandates for conflict resolution between Israel and Palestine.

    I see no "Arab"shame there.

    Do you ?

    Rather I feel a certain shame that its been LANGUISHING un-approached for 14 years.

    Earnest attempts at peace making are much more "honorable" than murdering innocent children, wizard.

    As a matter of fact murdering children, BEFORE giving peace a chance, is down right evil.

    Wouldn't you agree ?

    On the subject of the 2002 peace initiative I recall no details or even what led up to it or what has followed. You mention it in the context of shame and honour cultures (a category that i raised and you perhaps dispute). Accordingly I ask whether perhsps that peace initiative was not set up to fail so avoiding any showdown with the domestic dissenters. BTW remember the murder of Sadat – and – by primitives on the other side Yitshak Rabin.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Issues of shame and honor are not exclusive to Arabs, Wizard.

    They seem to be traits universal to just about everyone.

    The 2002 Arab peace initiative, fully conforms to all the international mandates for conflict resolution between Israel and Palestine.

    I see no "Arab"shame there.

    Do you ?

    Rather I feel a certain shame that its been LANGUISHING un-approached for 14 years.

    Earnest attempts at peace making are much more "honorable" than murdering innocent children, wizard.

    As a matter of fact murdering children, BEFORE giving peace a chance, is down right evil.

    Wouldn't you agree ?

    Your reply is just one educated civilised amateur do-gooder chatting to another over dinner. I don’t claim to greater expertise but do point out that i wasn’t writing of “issues of shame and honor” which, as you say, “are not exclusive to others”. I was referring to the problems possibly created by a shame/honor culture which I think I first heard specifically raised in relation to the problems of the Israelis doing a deal with the Palestinians by David Pryce-Jones who is, decidedly, no amateur.

    It marks a cultural difference with powerful effects as i understand it. Consider the honor killings within quite long established immigrant communities, principally Pakistani, in Britain. The suggestion is that the reasonable educated might negotiate but, behind or bubbling below them will be primitive young (egged on by old) traditionalist fanatics who will find a source of political power in rejecting the sellouts. Israelis point to the offers made by Ehud Barak which were rejected and, without accepting Israeli claims as the whole truth, that may be one reason why they see no hope of ultimately successful peacemaking negotiation with the Palestinians (and now have a government which won’t try).

    The problem of young (opportunist) extremists can crop up anywhere. Another Third World example may be in South Africa which has similar demographics and unemployment, not to mention segregation, to Israel-Palestine. There seem to be plenty of efficient farmers who fear they will be driven out as the white farmers in Zimbabwe have been.

    I claim no anthropological or sociological expertise but do see utility in the distinction between the honour-shame cultures and those said to be based on guilt and responsibility (where, I suppose, judgment of oneself according to principle is more powerful than consideration of what others will think about one’s status).

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    I give as much credence to these experts notion of an honor/shame culture(as an impediment to peace) as I do to the experts "certainty" it was Saddam's anthrax deposited in Tom Brokaw's office.

    In short, its all a lot of foul smelling hot air.

    Its all just an incessant stream of bogus fraud.

    All this time, effort and money they spend in concocting these constant multi-pronged streams of hasbara bullshit.

    Its all a farce now,

    There is Zero credibility left, Wizard...absolutely ZERO credibility.

    Don't you see that ?

    Listen to yourself....you sound so pathetic...its almost tragic.

    Every one of these so called '"experts" should be remaindered to federal prison, ASAP, and every penny of their assets, and their backers assets, should be clawed back to the U.S.treasury to pay back the humongous and unconscionable debt their heinous fraud has created.

    What a sick joke they all are..

    Truly.

    Make a PEACE PLAN....Get on with it.!....Cut out all the crap already...Enough is enough.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    I don't think I disagree with any of that except that that there are probably more obstacles to peace coming about than either of us can fully understand or imagine. (You haven't mentioned for example the Arab shame/honour culture and its significance, or the almost equally intractable problems of Israeli donestic politics compounded by the ethnic changes in Israel since the origins in Zionist socialism). However I further question your enthusiasm for internatiinal law as being of much relevance. What, for example, is the consequence of the West Bank having been under Jordanian control before the 1967 war?

    Issues of shame and honor are not exclusive to Arabs, Wizard.

    They seem to be traits universal to just about everyone.

    The 2002 Arab peace initiative, fully conforms to all the international mandates for conflict resolution between Israel and Palestine.

    I see no “Arab”shame there.

    Do you ?

    Rather I feel a certain shame that its been LANGUISHING un-approached for 14 years.

    Earnest attempts at peace making are much more “honorable” than murdering innocent children, wizard.

    As a matter of fact murdering children, BEFORE giving peace a chance, is down right evil.

    Wouldn’t you agree ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Your reply is just one educated civilised amateur do-gooder chatting to another over dinner. I don't claim to greater expertise but do point out that i wasn't writing of "issues of shame and honor" which, as you say, "are not exclusive to others". I was referring to the problems possibly created by a shame/honor culture which I think I first heard specifically raised in relation to the problems of the Israelis doing a deal with the Palestinians by David Pryce-Jones who is, decidedly, no amateur.

    It marks a cultural difference with powerful effects as i understand it. Consider the honor killings within quite long established immigrant communities, principally Pakistani, in Britain. The suggestion is that the reasonable educated might negotiate but, behind or bubbling below them will be primitive young (egged on by old) traditionalist fanatics who will find a source of political power in rejecting the sellouts. Israelis point to the offers made by Ehud Barak which were rejected and, without accepting Israeli claims as the whole truth, that may be one reason why they see no hope of ultimately successful peacemaking negotiation with the Palestinians (and now have a government which won't try).

    The problem of young (opportunist) extremists can crop up anywhere. Another Third World example may be in South Africa which has similar demographics and unemployment, not to mention segregation, to Israel-Palestine. There seem to be plenty of efficient farmers who fear they will be driven out as the white farmers in Zimbabwe have been.

    I claim no anthropological or sociological expertise but do see utility in the distinction between the honour-shame cultures and those said to be based on guilt and responsibility (where, I suppose, judgment of oneself according to principle is more powerful than consideration of what others will think about one's status).

    , @Wizard of Oz
    On the subject of the 2002 peace initiative I recall no details or even what led up to it or what has followed. You mention it in the context of shame and honour cultures (a category that i raised and you perhaps dispute). Accordingly I ask whether perhsps that peace initiative was not set up to fail so avoiding any showdown with the domestic dissenters. BTW remember the murder of Sadat - and - by primitives on the other side Yitshak Rabin.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    Your choice, but your reading of what I said is bizarrely selective. Do you really think I implied that Gaza is a satisfactorily functioning independent polity, left alone by Israel? But, as you raise the subject, I do think your "undue Israeli influence over every aspect of daily life" is an exaggeration. I think it would be more accurate to say that "few aspects of daily life are totally unaffected by continuing Israeli interference in and threats of interference in Gaza".

    Do you think the present relations of Gaza and Israel are what Sharon envisaged? I doubt it.

    Space is not unlimited.

    I was agreeing with the commenter that I prefer more writers like Kirkpatrick as opposed to Reed and Derbyshire.

    Editor and censor are not the same and you know that.

    There is a difference between writers, like Derbyshire and Buchanan that have been shown to the door from MSM and some of the other stuff that is published here that is more akin to Ted Kaczynski’s writings. There is guilt by association whether one acknowledges it or not. It doesn’t do Razib any good to be on the same page with Revusky.

    I am not trying to deny anybody articles; I am just trying to get more articles that I like and some of this stuff would be more at home at Amren or TOO type sites.

    After all Ariel Sharon did give up Gaza.

    You are presenting Gaza as some sort of model. Implying that Gaza has been “given up” by Israel is farcical. And no, I don’t like your formulation, I like mine. “few aspects of daily life are totally unaffected” implies some sort of incidental happenings, marginal impact, etc. from time to time. Gazans are under the thumbscrew of Israel 24/7.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    Since money, including the $3.5 million, is fungible, what does your question about its application to the hasbara operation mean? Are you asking how much less hasbara activity there would be if the amount was smaller? But logically it might be that more hasbara effort was thought to be needed if the subsidy was diminished or threatened.

    Wizard,

    Lets not try to be less intelligent (or perceptive) about this, then we need to be.

    I believe an Israel with a bonafide PEACE PLAN in its hands, that is hard at work trying to achieve it, is worthy of US aid, to get the job done, and cross over that Rubicon.

    An Israel without one, that is wholly committed to “lebensraum”, perpetual war, and ethnic cleansing does not deserve ONE US DOLLAR.

    My point about the 3.5 billion, wasn’t centered around the issue of its “fungibility”, but the duplicity of the Hasbara , it might be financing, to obfuscate the truth.

    The idea that Americans are coughing up our tax dollars to Israel, so it can use that very same financing to LIE TO US about whats going on, (and underwriting their powerful hasbara apparatus ), rubs me the wrong way.

    I do not like fraud, Wizard.

    I certainly don’t like paying for it.

    My tax dollars are precious to me. and should not be squandered on anything that isn’t wholly above board and 100% honest.

    I have never met an American, ANYWHERE, for as long as I have lived ,who likes to be CONNED out of his dough.

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    • Agree: OLD JEW
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Wizard,

    Success for some should be success for all, especially when it leads to a long standing and prosperous peace in the middle east.

    I, for one, can see an Israel fully at peace with its neighbors. The influx of trade , tourism and good will would be IMMENSE..

    I think a robust compensation package for Palestinians forced from their homes in 48, combined with a Palestinian state, at peace with Israel, would allow the winds of freedom to blow over all Palestinians, and all Israelis too..

    The overwhelming positivism of this event would echo throughout the world, not just the middle east.

    Tourism would explode in Israel, and Palestine,....in Lebanon, in Egypt,in Syria, in Iran ,Iraq,and everywhere.

    Conflict and war profoundly "constricts" the ability of people to interact, Wizard.

    It is awfully hard to buy and sell goods, and travel, if everywhere is a 'war zone".

    Peace brings enormous freedom to everybody....Our wars have brought US nothing but boat loads of refugees, unending heartbreak and an obscene 20 trillion dollar national debt.

    Why is this a plus?

    Yes , the belligerent war mongers among us would have to eat crow......But for me, that kind of comeuppance is way overdue.

    They are ,for the most part, "evil greedy frauds "anyway, so why should we care about them ?

    I think, regards to the settlements, its pretty easy to fashion a plan, where some would be abandoned, some would be incorporated into Palestine, and some would be merged with Israel.

    Its not THAT hard.

    Peace between neighbors would allow for all sorts of unintended positives, we cannot even foresee , because no one has experienced it.

    Just the sheer "freedom of movement",...... the "peace of mind" everyone has, knowing the other guy is not trying to stab you , shoot you, blow you up, steal your home,or kill your kids, is worth so much, Wizard, it is almost priceless.

    This peace of mind CHANGES things.....I think its awesome.

    Its just too outstanding a prospect not to bring to fruition.

    We just need a vision for it....we need to be able to see it in our minds eye,...... to make it real.

    I don’t think I disagree with any of that except that that there are probably more obstacles to peace coming about than either of us can fully understand or imagine. (You haven’t mentioned for example the Arab shame/honour culture and its significance, or the almost equally intractable problems of Israeli donestic politics compounded by the ethnic changes in Israel since the origins in Zionist socialism). However I further question your enthusiasm for internatiinal law as being of much relevance. What, for example, is the consequence of the West Bank having been under Jordanian control before the 1967 war?

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Issues of shame and honor are not exclusive to Arabs, Wizard.

    They seem to be traits universal to just about everyone.

    The 2002 Arab peace initiative, fully conforms to all the international mandates for conflict resolution between Israel and Palestine.

    I see no "Arab"shame there.

    Do you ?

    Rather I feel a certain shame that its been LANGUISHING un-approached for 14 years.

    Earnest attempts at peace making are much more "honorable" than murdering innocent children, wizard.

    As a matter of fact murdering children, BEFORE giving peace a chance, is down right evil.

    Wouldn't you agree ?
    , @KA
    "Arab shame/honor culture".
    You just reminded me the power of the projection . Haven't we been hearing from the neocons and from their favorites presidential hopefuls how America has lost the respect ? "No one respects us anymore "-cries the pack of the wolves before after signing the draft for next round of war .

    As the neocons and liberal interventionist are destroying the religious influences in different or every facet of the society,they are busy building their own hymns,chants,rituals,and are busy shoveling those parables for the uninititated on the rest with force,forces of money , lure of future Nirvana of being chosen to lead the masses and promises of belonging to the Axis of the Willing or the mafia with mandate for R2 P and cautioning us against the presence of the Devil also known as Axis of Evil or Rogue Dictators .
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    It is interesting once you take time to research things, how profoundly the war on terror has obscured the laws of occupation and resistance.

    I do not think this is unintentional, ...do you ?

    For example ,how many Americans have actually been taught, over the last fifteen years, that an occupied people have a LEGAL right to use arms to resist their occupier ?

    None.

    How many are actually taught Palestinian armed resistance to Israeli oppression is LEGAL, and Israeli brutality toward Palestinians in the OPT is NOT legal.

    None.

    In this instance, the GWOT functions as a manufactured "construct", to delimit and cloak the legitimacy of Palestinian resistance, and empower Israeli oppression and cruelty.

    When the reality of the "real" laws go exactly the other way.

    This is just one more instance, where Israels potent hasbara techniques have effectively obscured reality, and introduced a fraudulent "conflict" dynamic, in replace of the one which is actually there..

    It is very clever to do that...but very dishonest too.

    No?

    Quite apart from any question of legality I wonder why rockets and mortar rounds are not regularly fired into Israeli settlements. At least those with a record of aggressive trespassing outside the established settlements.

    Why does this not happen? Surely it cannot be because either the IDF or Palestinian authority are effective at totally sealing off the West Bank to smuggled weapons or ingredients and specisl forces type commandos. Maybe the Arab governments collude so strongly against the Palestinians as resistance fighters that they really don’t and can’t have the means? Couldn’t weapons be made in a large refugee camp or town like Jenin?

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  • @iffen
    Really?

    Gaza is independent and functioning.?
    No undue Israeli influence over every aspect of daily life?

    Your choice, but your reading of what I said is bizarrely selective. Do you really think I implied that Gaza is a satisfactorily functioning independent polity, left alone by Israel? But, as you raise the subject, I do think your “undue Israeli influence over every aspect of daily life” is an exaggeration. I think it would be more accurate to say that “few aspects of daily life are totally unaffected by continuing Israeli interference in and threats of interference in Gaza”.

    Do you think the present relations of Gaza and Israel are what Sharon envisaged? I doubt it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Space is not unlimited.

    I was agreeing with the commenter that I prefer more writers like Kirkpatrick as opposed to Reed and Derbyshire.

    Editor and censor are not the same and you know that.

    There is a difference between writers, like Derbyshire and Buchanan that have been shown to the door from MSM and some of the other stuff that is published here that is more akin to Ted Kaczynski’s writings. There is guilt by association whether one acknowledges it or not. It doesn’t do Razib any good to be on the same page with Revusky.

    I am not trying to deny anybody articles; I am just trying to get more articles that I like and some of this stuff would be more at home at Amren or TOO type sites.


    After all Ariel Sharon did give up Gaza.

    You are presenting Gaza as some sort of model. Implying that Gaza has been “given up” by Israel is farcical. And no, I don’t like your formulation, I like mine. “few aspects of daily life are totally unaffected” implies some sort of incidental happenings, marginal impact, etc. from time to time. Gazans are under the thumbscrew of Israel 24/7.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    I wonder too, how much money Israel has spent on this "hasbara" over the last fifteen years?

    Have they spent 20 million a year?...40 million....100 million ?

    Are there hard numbers out there somewhere?

    Furthermore, if you stop to consider the "all encompassing" nature of the GWOT...I wonder how much of the 3.5 Billion we GIFT to Israel, every year, is utilized for this very "hasbara" which is disseminated BACK into the U.S.? .....

    A "hasbara" designed specifically to "obscure" and "cloak over" the legal rights of Palestinians to resist their occupiers ?

    Don't you wonder about this too ?

    Given the fact that Israel has no PEACE PLAN at all,how twisted does this become ?

    Since money, including the $3.5 million, is fungible, what does your question about its application to the hasbara operation mean? Are you asking how much less hasbara activity there would be if the amount was smaller? But logically it might be that more hasbara effort was thought to be needed if the subsidy was diminished or threatened.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Wizard,

    Lets not try to be less intelligent (or perceptive) about this, then we need to be.

    I believe an Israel with a bonafide PEACE PLAN in its hands, that is hard at work trying to achieve it, is worthy of US aid, to get the job done, and cross over that Rubicon.

    An Israel without one, that is wholly committed to "lebensraum", perpetual war, and ethnic cleansing does not deserve ONE US DOLLAR.

    My point about the 3.5 billion, wasn't centered around the issue of its "fungibility", but the duplicity of the Hasbara , it might be financing, to obfuscate the truth.

    The idea that Americans are coughing up our tax dollars to Israel, so it can use that very same financing to LIE TO US about whats going on, (and underwriting their powerful hasbara apparatus ), rubs me the wrong way.

    I do not like fraud, Wizard.

    I certainly don't like paying for it.

    My tax dollars are precious to me. and should not be squandered on anything that isn't wholly above board and 100% honest.

    I have never met an American, ANYWHERE, for as long as I have lived ,who likes to be CONNED out of his dough.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    Before getting to my present understanding of Netanyahu and his allies I was willing to assign quite a high probability to the settlement building policy being a tough minded approach to dealing with the Arab's deadly shame/honour culture which required that the only peace agreement acceptable to the Arabs could be represented by them as total victory for them. Thus I posited a situation where the settlements could be abandoned (or incorporated in a Palestinian majority state as a voluntary option) and East Jerusalem become the Palestinian capital and the Arabs would be able to claim total success (although some faction would carry on about the settlers being able to choose to stay and the terms on which they were so allowed). After all Ariel Sharon did give up Gaza. But that, as one might point out, could make my imagined scenario even less likely.

    Wizard,

    Success for some should be success for all, especially when it leads to a long standing and prosperous peace in the middle east.

    I, for one, can see an Israel fully at peace with its neighbors. The influx of trade , tourism and good will would be IMMENSE..

    I think a robust compensation package for Palestinians forced from their homes in 48, combined with a Palestinian state, at peace with Israel, would allow the winds of freedom to blow over all Palestinians, and all Israelis too..

    The overwhelming positivism of this event would echo throughout the world, not just the middle east.

    Tourism would explode in Israel, and Palestine,….in Lebanon, in Egypt,in Syria, in Iran ,Iraq,and everywhere.

    Conflict and war profoundly “constricts” the ability of people to interact, Wizard.

    It is awfully hard to buy and sell goods, and travel, if everywhere is a ‘war zone”.

    Peace brings enormous freedom to everybody….Our wars have brought US nothing but boat loads of refugees, unending heartbreak and an obscene 20 trillion dollar national debt.

    Why is this a plus?

    Yes , the belligerent war mongers among us would have to eat crow……But for me, that kind of comeuppance is way overdue.

    They are ,for the most part, “evil greedy frauds “anyway, so why should we care about them ?

    I think, regards to the settlements, its pretty easy to fashion a plan, where some would be abandoned, some would be incorporated into Palestine, and some would be merged with Israel.

    Its not THAT hard.

    Peace between neighbors would allow for all sorts of unintended positives, we cannot even foresee , because no one has experienced it.

    Just the sheer “freedom of movement”,…… the “peace of mind” everyone has, knowing the other guy is not trying to stab you , shoot you, blow you up, steal your home,or kill your kids, is worth so much, Wizard, it is almost priceless.

    This peace of mind CHANGES things…..I think its awesome.

    Its just too outstanding a prospect not to bring to fruition.

    We just need a vision for it….we need to be able to see it in our minds eye,…… to make it real.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I don't think I disagree with any of that except that that there are probably more obstacles to peace coming about than either of us can fully understand or imagine. (You haven't mentioned for example the Arab shame/honour culture and its significance, or the almost equally intractable problems of Israeli donestic politics compounded by the ethnic changes in Israel since the origins in Zionist socialism). However I further question your enthusiasm for internatiinal law as being of much relevance. What, for example, is the consequence of the West Bank having been under Jordanian control before the 1967 war?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    It is interesting once you take time to research things, how profoundly the war on terror has obscured the laws of occupation and resistance.

    I do not think this is unintentional, ...do you ?

    For example ,how many Americans have actually been taught, over the last fifteen years, that an occupied people have a LEGAL right to use arms to resist their occupier ?

    None.

    How many are actually taught Palestinian armed resistance to Israeli oppression is LEGAL, and Israeli brutality toward Palestinians in the OPT is NOT legal.

    None.

    In this instance, the GWOT functions as a manufactured "construct", to delimit and cloak the legitimacy of Palestinian resistance, and empower Israeli oppression and cruelty.

    When the reality of the "real" laws go exactly the other way.

    This is just one more instance, where Israels potent hasbara techniques have effectively obscured reality, and introduced a fraudulent "conflict" dynamic, in replace of the one which is actually there..

    It is very clever to do that...but very dishonest too.

    No?

    I wonder too, how much money Israel has spent on this “hasbara” over the last fifteen years?

    Have they spent 20 million a year?…40 million….100 million ?

    Are there hard numbers out there somewhere?

    Furthermore, if you stop to consider the “all encompassing” nature of the GWOT…I wonder how much of the 3.5 Billion we GIFT to Israel, every year, is utilized for this very “hasbara” which is disseminated BACK into the U.S.? …..

    A “hasbara” designed specifically to “obscure” and “cloak over” the legal rights of Palestinians to resist their occupiers ?

    Don’t you wonder about this too ?

    Given the fact that Israel has no PEACE PLAN at all,how twisted does this become ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Since money, including the $3.5 million, is fungible, what does your question about its application to the hasbara operation mean? Are you asking how much less hasbara activity there would be if the amount was smaller? But logically it might be that more hasbara effort was thought to be needed if the subsidy was diminished or threatened.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @bondo
    if hamas or any palestinian group or palestinian individual used a hi tech guided missile, that is within their right.

    they are the oppressed, occupied, victim.

    dont think george w, the moron, gave a thought to the so called attempt on papa's life by saddam.

    never spoke about it nor wrote about it. didnt shed a tear. as gov didnt call out the tex rangers nor guard to go after s. hussein.

    the only source im aware of is his jew biographer

    bull shit misdirection by a jew who wrote it in to protect pussywitz, perle, others.

    It is interesting once you take time to research things, how profoundly the war on terror has obscured the laws of occupation and resistance.

    I do not think this is unintentional, …do you ?

    For example ,how many Americans have actually been taught, over the last fifteen years, that an occupied people have a LEGAL right to use arms to resist their occupier ?

    None.

    How many are actually taught Palestinian armed resistance to Israeli oppression is LEGAL, and Israeli brutality toward Palestinians in the OPT is NOT legal.

    None.

    In this instance, the GWOT functions as a manufactured “construct”, to delimit and cloak the legitimacy of Palestinian resistance, and empower Israeli oppression and cruelty.

    When the reality of the “real” laws go exactly the other way.

    This is just one more instance, where Israels potent hasbara techniques have effectively obscured reality, and introduced a fraudulent “conflict” dynamic, in replace of the one which is actually there..

    It is very clever to do that…but very dishonest too.

    No?

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    I wonder too, how much money Israel has spent on this "hasbara" over the last fifteen years?

    Have they spent 20 million a year?...40 million....100 million ?

    Are there hard numbers out there somewhere?

    Furthermore, if you stop to consider the "all encompassing" nature of the GWOT...I wonder how much of the 3.5 Billion we GIFT to Israel, every year, is utilized for this very "hasbara" which is disseminated BACK into the U.S.? .....

    A "hasbara" designed specifically to "obscure" and "cloak over" the legal rights of Palestinians to resist their occupiers ?

    Don't you wonder about this too ?

    Given the fact that Israel has no PEACE PLAN at all,how twisted does this become ?

    , @Wizard of Oz
    Quite apart from any question of legality I wonder why rockets and mortar rounds are not regularly fired into Israeli settlements. At least those with a record of aggressive trespassing outside the established settlements.

    Why does this not happen? Surely it cannot be because either the IDF or Palestinian authority are effective at totally sealing off the West Bank to smuggled weapons or ingredients and specisl forces type commandos. Maybe the Arab governments collude so strongly against the Palestinians as resistance fighters that they really don't and can't have the means? Couldn't weapons be made in a large refugee camp or town like Jenin?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @bondo
    if hamas or any palestinian group or palestinian individual used a hi tech guided missile, that is within their right.

    they are the oppressed, occupied, victim.

    dont think george w, the moron, gave a thought to the so called attempt on papa's life by saddam.

    never spoke about it nor wrote about it. didnt shed a tear. as gov didnt call out the tex rangers nor guard to go after s. hussein.

    the only source im aware of is his jew biographer

    bull shit misdirection by a jew who wrote it in to protect pussywitz, perle, others.

    if hamas or any palestinian group or palestinian individual used a hi tech guided missile, that is within their right.

    they are the oppressed, occupied, victim.

    Prof. Michael Neumann happens to agree with this line of thinking:

    [MORE]

    But non-violence, so often recommended to the Palestinians, has never ‘worked’ in any politically relevant sense of the word, and there is no reason to suppose it ever will. It has never, largely on its own strength, achieved the political objectives of those who employed it.

    There are supposedly three major examples of successful nonviolence: Gandhi’s independence movement, the US civil rights movement, and the South African campaign against apartheid. None of them performed as advertised.

    … In short, it is a myth that nonviolence brought all the victories it is supposed to have brought. It brought, in fact, none of them.

    How does this bear on the Israel-Palestine conflict? At the very least it should make one question the propriety of recommending nonviolence to the Palestinians. In their situation, success is far less likely than in the cases we have examined. Unlike Martin Luther King, they are working against a state, not with one. Their opponents are far more ruthless than the British were in the twilight of empire. Unlike the Indians and South Africans, they do not vastly outnumber their oppressors. And neither the Boers nor the English ever had anything like the moral authority Israel enjoys in the hearts and minds of Americans, much less its enormous support network. Nonviolent protest might overcome Israel’s prestige in ten or twenty years, but no one thinks the Palestinians have that long.

    But the biggest myth of nonviolence isn’t its supposed efficacy: it’s the notion that, if you don’t choose non-violence, you choose violence. The Palestinians, like many others before them, find a middle ground. They choose when and whether to use violence and when to refrain from it. Many many times, they have chosen non-violent tactics, from demonstrations to strikes to negotiations, with varying but certainly not spectacular success. And their greatest act of nonviolent resistance is, as Israel Shamir points out, their stubborn determination to remain on their own lands despite repeated attacks from armed settlers, which Palestinian farmers are in no position to counter.

    The Palestinians will continue to choose, sometimes violence, sometimes nonviolence. They will presumably base their choices, as they have always done, on their assessment of the political realities. It is a sort of insolent naïveté to suppose that, in their weakness, they should defy the lessons of history and cut off half their options. The notion that a people can free itself literally by allowing their captors to walk all over them is historical fantasy.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2003/02/08/nonviolence-its-histories-and-myths/

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • if hamas or any palestinian group or palestinian individual used a hi tech guided missile, that is within their right.

    they are the oppressed, occupied, victim.

    dont think george w, the moron, gave a thought to the so called attempt on papa’s life by saddam.

    never spoke about it nor wrote about it. didnt shed a tear. as gov didnt call out the tex rangers nor guard to go after s. hussein.

    the only source im aware of is his jew biographer

    bull shit misdirection by a jew who wrote it in to protect pussywitz, perle, others.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    if hamas or any palestinian group or palestinian individual used a hi tech guided missile, that is within their right.

    they are the oppressed, occupied, victim.
     
    Prof. Michael Neumann happens to agree with this line of thinking:

    But non-violence, so often recommended to the Palestinians, has never ‘worked’ in any politically relevant sense of the word, and there is no reason to suppose it ever will. It has never, largely on its own strength, achieved the political objectives of those who employed it.

    There are supposedly three major examples of successful nonviolence: Gandhi’s independence movement, the US civil rights movement, and the South African campaign against apartheid. None of them performed as advertised.

    … In short, it is a myth that nonviolence brought all the victories it is supposed to have brought. It brought, in fact, none of them.

    How does this bear on the Israel-Palestine conflict? At the very least it should make one question the propriety of recommending nonviolence to the Palestinians. In their situation, success is far less likely than in the cases we have examined. Unlike Martin Luther King, they are working against a state, not with one. Their opponents are far more ruthless than the British were in the twilight of empire. Unlike the Indians and South Africans, they do not vastly outnumber their oppressors. And neither the Boers nor the English ever had anything like the moral authority Israel enjoys in the hearts and minds of Americans, much less its enormous support network. Nonviolent protest might overcome Israel’s prestige in ten or twenty years, but no one thinks the Palestinians have that long.

    But the biggest myth of nonviolence isn’t its supposed efficacy: it’s the notion that, if you don’t choose non-violence, you choose violence. The Palestinians, like many others before them, find a middle ground. They choose when and whether to use violence and when to refrain from it. Many many times, they have chosen non-violent tactics, from demonstrations to strikes to negotiations, with varying but certainly not spectacular success. And their greatest act of nonviolent resistance is, as Israel Shamir points out, their stubborn determination to remain on their own lands despite repeated attacks from armed settlers, which Palestinian farmers are in no position to counter.

    The Palestinians will continue to choose, sometimes violence, sometimes nonviolence. They will presumably base their choices, as they have always done, on their assessment of the political realities. It is a sort of insolent naïveté to suppose that, in their weakness, they should defy the lessons of history and cut off half their options. The notion that a people can free itself literally by allowing their captors to walk all over them is historical fantasy.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2003/02/08/nonviolence-its-histories-and-myths/
     
    , @alexander
    It is interesting once you take time to research things, how profoundly the war on terror has obscured the laws of occupation and resistance.

    I do not think this is unintentional, ...do you ?

    For example ,how many Americans have actually been taught, over the last fifteen years, that an occupied people have a LEGAL right to use arms to resist their occupier ?

    None.

    How many are actually taught Palestinian armed resistance to Israeli oppression is LEGAL, and Israeli brutality toward Palestinians in the OPT is NOT legal.

    None.

    In this instance, the GWOT functions as a manufactured "construct", to delimit and cloak the legitimacy of Palestinian resistance, and empower Israeli oppression and cruelty.

    When the reality of the "real" laws go exactly the other way.

    This is just one more instance, where Israels potent hasbara techniques have effectively obscured reality, and introduced a fraudulent "conflict" dynamic, in replace of the one which is actually there..

    It is very clever to do that...but very dishonest too.

    No?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @iffen
    presented irrefutable evidence that the invasion of Iraq would not have occurred

    We believe the United States would not have attacked Iraq without their [the Israel Lobby's] efforts.

    Believing and presenting irrefutable evidence are not the same.

    I will concede your point that they say it would not have happened without the efforts of the lobby/Lobby.

    Believing and presenting irrefutable evidence are not the same.

    Do the 175 notes for Chapter 8: IRAQ AND DREAMS OF TRANSFORMING THE MIDDLE EAST, (The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy) qualify as “presenting irrefutable evidence”?

    [MORE]

    George Packer, The Assassins’ Gate: America in Iraq (New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2005), 46. Former CIA director George Tenet offers a similar view, writing in his memoirs that “one of the great mysteries to me is when the war in Iraq became inevitable.” George Tenet with Bill Harlow, At the Center of the Storm: My Years at the CIA (New York: Harper, 2007), 301.

    As the New York Times columnist Thomas L. Friedman reportedly observed in May 2003, “It is not only the neoconservatives who led us to the outskirts of Baghdad. What led us to the outskirts of Baghdad is a very American combination of anxiety and hubris.” See Ari Shavit, “White Man’s Burden,” Haaretz, May 4, 2003.

    Quoted in Emad Mekay, “Iraq Was Invaded ‘to Protect Israel’—US Officiai,” Asia Times On­ line, March 31, 2004. We used these quotations in our original article in the London Review of Books, and Zelikow challenged our interpretation of them. We based our discussion on a full and unimpeachable record of his remarks, and his challenge has no basis in fact. For a more detailed discussion of Zelikow’s charge and our response, see “Letters,” London Re­ view of Books, May 25, 2006. Zelikow also served with Rice on the National Security Coun­ cil during the first Bush administration and later coauthored a book with her on German reunification. He was one of the principal authors of the document that is probably the most comprehensive statement of the Bush Doctrine: The National Security Strategy of the United States of America (Washington, DC: White House, September 2002).

    Quoted in “US Assumes UK Help in Iraq, Says General,” Guardian, August 20, 2002. Quoted in an interview with Sascha Lehnartz, “Dann helfen uns eben die Osteuropaer,” Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung, January 26, 2003. On the influence of the Defense Policy Board in Donald Rumsfeld’s Pentagon, see Stephen J. Hedges, “Iraq Hawks Have Bush’s Ear,” Chicago Tribune, August 18, 2002.
    Joe Klein, “How Israel Is Wrapped Up in Iraq,” Time, February 10, 2003.
    Senator Ernest F. Hollings, “Bush’s Failed Mideast Policy Is Creating More Terrorism,” Charleston Post and Courier (online), May 6, 2004; and “Sen. Hollings Floor Statement Setting the Record Straight on His Mideast Newspaper Column,” May 20, 2004, originally posted on the former senator’s website (now defunct) but still available at http://www.shalomctr.org/node/620. “ADL Urges Senator Hollings to Disavow Statements on Jews and the Iraq War,” Anti- Defamation League press release, May 14, 2004.
    Matthew E. Berger, “Not So Gentle Rhetoric from the Gentleman from South Carolina,”

    JTA.org, May 23, 2004; “Sen. Hollings Floor Statement”; and “Senator Lautenberg’s Floor Statement in Support of Senator Hollings,” June 3, 2004, http://lautenberg.senate.gov/news room/video.cfm.
    Aluf Benn, “Scapegoat for Israel,” Haaretz, May 13, 2004; Matthew Berger, “Will Some Jews’ Backing for War in Iraq Have Repercussions for All1?”JTA.org, June 10, 2004; Patrick J. Buchanan, “Whose War?”American Conservative, March 24, 2003; Arnaud de Borchgrave, “A Bush-Sharon Doctrine?” Washington Times, February 14, 2003; Ami Eden, “Israel’s Role: The ‘Elephant’They’re Talking About,” Forward, February 28, 2003; “The Ground Shifts,” Forward, May 28, 2004; Nathan Guttman, “Prominent U.S. Jews, Israel Blamed for Start of Iraq War,” Haaretz, May 31, 2004; Spencer S. Hsu, “Moran Said Jews Are Pushing War,” Washington Post, March 11, 2003; Lawrence F. Kaplan, “Toxic Talk on War,” Washington

    Post, February 18, 2003; E. J. Kessler, “Gary Hart Says ‘Dual Loyalty’ Barb Was Not Aimed at Jews,” Forward, February 21, 2003; Ori Nir and Ami Eden, “Ex-Mideast Envoy Zinni Charges Neocons Pushed Iraq War to Benefit Israel,” Forward, May 28, 2004; and Robert Novak, “Sharon’s War?” CNN.com, December 26, 2002.

    Quoted in Akiva Eldar, “Sharp Pen, Cruel Tongue,” Haaretz, April 13, 2007.

    Michael Kinsley, “What Bush Isn’t Saying About Iraq,” Slate.com, October 24, 2002. Also

    see Michael Kinsley, “J’Accuse, Sort Of,” Slate.com, March 12, 2003.

    Nathan Guttman, “Some Blame Israel for U.S. War in Iraq,” Haaretz, March 5, 2003.

    Bill Keller, “Is It Good for the Jews?” New York Times, March 8, 2003.

    Ori Nir, “FBI Probe: More Questions Than Answers,” Forward, May 13, 2005.

    Shai Feldman, “The Bombing of Osiraq—Revisited,” International Security 7, no. 2 (Au­

    tumn 1982); and Dan Reiter, “Preventive Attacks Against Nuclear Programs and the ‘Suc­

    cess’ at Osiraq,” Nonproliferation Review 12, no. 2 (July 2005).

    Joel Brinkley, “Confrontation in the Gulf: Israelis Worried by U.S. Restraint,” New York

    Times, August 30, 1990;Joel Brinkley, “Top Israelis Warn of Deep Worry over Diplomatic Accord in Gulf,” New York Times, December 4, 1990; Hugh Carnegy, “Pullout Not Enough, Says Israel,” Financial Times, January 10, 1991; Sabra Chartrand, “Israel Warns Against a Gulf Retreat,” New York Times, December 6, 1990; Jackson Diehl, “Israelis Fear Iraqi Threat Will Endure,” Washington Post, August 29, 1990; Rowland Evans and Robert Novak, “Israel’s Call for Action,” Washington Post, August 24, 1990; Michael Massing, “The Way to War,” New York Review of Books, March 28, 1991; Martin Merzer, “Israel Hopes Diplomacy Won’t Let Iraqi Stay in Power,” Miami Herald, August 29, 1990; and “Sharon to Americans: Blast Iraqis Immediately,” Jerusalem Post, August 12, 1990.

    Aluf Benn, “Sharon Shows Powell His Practical Side,” Haaretz, February 26, 2001.

    Seymour Hersh, “The Iran Game,” New Yorker, December 3, 2001; Peter Hirschberg, “Background: Peres Raises Iranian Threat,” Haaretz, February 5, 2002; David Hirst, “Israel

    Thrusts Iran in Line of US Fire,” Guardian, February 2, 2002; “Israel Once Again Sees Iran as a Cause for Concern,” Haaretz, May 7, 2001; and Alan Sipress, “Israel Emphasizes Iran­ ian Threat,” Washington Post, February 7, 2002.

    Robert Novak, “Netanyahu’s Nuke Warning,” Chicago Sun-Times, April 14, 2002; Robert Novak, “War on Iraq Won’t Be ‘Cakewalk,’” Chicago Sun-Times, April 25, 2002; and William Raspberry, “To Solve the Crisis,” Washington Post, April 15, 2002.

    Elizabeth Sullivan, “Sharon Aide Expects United States to Attack Iraq; He Says Saddam Must Be Stopped from Making Nuclear Arms,” Cleveland Plain Dealer (online), May 3, 2002.

    Quoted in Joyce Howard Price, “Peres Encourages U.S. Action on Iraq,” Washington Times,

    May 12, 2002.

    Ehud Barak, “No Quick Fix,” Washington Post, June 8, 2002.

    Quoted in Gideon Alon, “Sharon to Panel: Iraq Is Our Biggest Danger,” Haaretz, August 13,

    2002. Also see Nina Gilbert, “Iraq Poses Greatest Threat,”Jerusalem Post, August 13, 2002.

    “Israel to US: Don’t Delay Iraq Attack,” CBSNews.com, August 16, 2002. The Sharon and Peres quotations are from Aluf Benn, “PM Urging U.S. Not to Delay Strike Against Iraq,” Haaretz, August 16, 2002. The Gissen quotation is from Jason Keyser, “Israel Urges U.S. to

    Attack,” Washington Post, August 16, 2002. The Shiry quotation is from Ben Lynfield, “Is­ rael Sees Opportunity in Possible US Strike on Iraq,” Christian Science Monitor, August 30, 2002. Also see Anton La Guardia, “Sharon Urges America to Bring Down Saddam,” Daily Telegraph (London), August 17, 2002; Reuven Pedhatzur, “Israel’s Interest in the War on Saddam,” Haaretz, August 4, 2002; Jonathan Steele, “Israel Puts Pressure on US to Strike Iraq,” Guardian, August 17, 2002; Walter Rodgers, “Rice and Peres Warn of Iraqi Threat,” CNN.com, August 16, 2002; Tony Snow et al., interview with Ra’anan Gissen, “Fox Special Report with Brit Hume,” August 16, 2002; and Ze’ev Schiff, “Into the Rough,” Haaretz, Au­ gust 16, 2002.

    Benn, “PM Urging U.S.” For additional evidence that “Israel and its supporters” were deeply concerned in 2002 “that critics would claim that the United States was going to war on

    Israel’s behalf—or even, as some have suggested, at Israel’s behest,” see Marc Perelman, “Iraqi Move Puts Israel in Lonely U.S. Corner,” Forward, September 20, 2002.
    On the lobby’s concerns in the run-up to the 1991 Gulf War, see John B. Judis, “Jews and the Gulf: Fallout from the Six-Week War,” Tikkun, May/June 1991; Allison Kaplan, “Sad­ dam Splits Jewish Lobby,”Jerusalem Post,January 14, 1991;and David Rogers,”Pro-Israel Lobbyists Quietly Backed Resolution Allowing Bush to Commit U.S. Troops to Combat,” Wall Street Journal, January 28, 1991. On Israel’s concerns at the same time, see Brinkley, “Top Israelis Warn of Deep Worry”; Carnegy, “Pullout Not Enough”; Chartrand,”Israel Warns”; Diehl, “Israelis Fear Iraqi Threat”; and Merzer, “Israel Hopes.” The Buchanan quo­ tation is from Chris Reidy, “The War Between the Columnists Gets Nasty,” Boston Globe, September 22, 1990.

    Benn, “PM Aide”; and Keyser, “Israel Urges U.S. to Attack.”
    Quoted in Rodgers, “Rice and Peres Warn.”
    Benn, “PM Aide.”
    Alon, “Sharon to Panel.” At a White House press conference with President Bush on Octo­ ber 16, 2002, Sharon said, “I would like to thank you, Mr. President, for the friendship and cooperation. And as far as I remember, as we look back towards many years now, I think that we never had such relations with any President of the United States as we have with you, and we never had such cooperation in everything as we have with the current administra­ tion.” “President Bush Welcomes Prime Minister Sharon to White House; Question and Answer Session with the Press,” transcript of press conference, U.S. Department of State, October 16, 2002. Also see Robert G. Kaiser, “Bush and Sharon Nearly Identical on Mideast Policy,” Washington Post, February 9, 2003.

    Shlomo Brom, “An Intelligence Failure,” Strategic Assessment (Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies, Tel Aviv University) 6, no. 3 (November 2003): 9. Also see “Intelligence Assess­ ment: Selections from the Media, 1998-2003,” ibid., 17-19; Gideon Alon, “Report Slams Assessment of Dangers Posed by Libya, Iraq,” Haaretz, March 28, 2004; Dan Baron, “Israeli Report Blasts Intelligence for Exaggerating the Iraqi Threat,” JTA.org, March 29, 2004; Molly Moore, “Israel Shares Blame on Iraq Intelligence, Report Says,” Washington Post, De­ cember 5, 2003; Greg Myre, “Israeli Report Faults Intelligence on Iraq,” New York Times, March 28, 2004; Ori Nir, “Senate Report on Iraq Intel Points to Role of Jerusalem,” For­ ward, July 16, 2004; and James Risen, State of War: The Secret History of the CIA and the Bush Administration (NewYork: Simon & Schuster, 2006), 72-73.

    On the general phenomenon of buck-passing, see John J. Mearsheimer, The Tragedy of Great Power Politics (NewYork: Norton, 2001), 157-62.
    Quoted in Perelman, “Iraqi Move.”
    Herb Keinon, “Sharon to Putin: Too Late for Iraq Arms Inspection, “Jerusalem Post, October 1, 2002.

    “Peres Questions France Permanent Status on Security Council,” Haaretz, February 20, 2003. Perelman, “Iraqi Move.”
    Shlomo Avineri, “A Haunting Echo,” Los Angeles Times, November 24, 2002. Also see Ben­ jamin Netanyahu, “The Case for Toppling Saddam,” Wall Street Journal, September 20, 2002; and Nathan Guttman, “Shimon Peres Warns Against Repeat of 1930s Appeasement,” Haaretz, September 15, 2002.

    For some representative editorials, see “Next Stop, Baghdad,” Jerusalem Post editorial, No­ vember 15, 2 0 0 1 ; “Don’t Wait for Saddam,” Jerusalem Post editorial, August 18, 2002; “Mak­ ing the Case for War,” Jerusalem Post editorial, September 9, 2002. For some representative op-eds, see Ron Dermer, “The March to Baghdad,” Jerusalem Post, December 21, 2001; Efraim Inbar, “Ousting Saddam, Instilling Stability,” Jerusalem Post, October 8, 2002; and Gerald M. Steinberg, “Imagining the Liberation of Iraq,”Jerusalem Post, November 18, 2001. “Don’t Wait for Saddam.”

    Ehud Barak, “Taking Apart Iraq’s Nuclear Threat,” New York Times, September 4, 2002.

    Netanyahu, “The Case for Toppling Saddam.” Also see Benjamin Netanyahu, “U.S. Must Beat Saddam to the Punch,” Chicago Sun-Times, September 17, 2002.
    See, for example, “Benjamin Netanyahu Testifies About Iraq to Congress,” CNN Live Event, CNN.com, September 12, 2002; Jim Lobe, “Hawks Justify Iraq Strike as War for Democracy,” Inter Press Service, September 27, 2002; and Janine Zacharia, “Netanyahu: US Must Guarantee Israel’s Safety from Iraqi Attack,” Jerusalem Post, September 13, 2002. Aluf Benn, “Background: Enthusiastic IDF Awaits War in Iraq,” Haaretz, February 17, 2003; James Bennet, “Israel Says War on Iraq Would Benefit the Region,” New York Times, February 27, 2003; and Chemi Shalev, “Jerusalem Frets as U.S. Battles Iraq War Delays,” Forward, March 7, 2003.

    Quoted in James Bennet, “Clinton Redux,” The [email protected] weblog, July 8, 2006. Asher Arian, “Israeli Public Opinion on National Security 2002,” Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies, Tel Aviv University, Memorandum no. 61, July 2002, 10, 34.
    Ephraim Yaar and Tamar Hermann, “Peace Index: Most Israelis Support the Attack on Iraq,” Haaretz, March 6, 2003. Regarding Kuwait, a public opinion poll released in March 2003 found that 89.6 percent of Kuwaitis favored the impending war against Iraq. James Morri­ son, “Kuwaitis Support War,” Washington Times, March 18, 2003. In a poll taken in Israel in early May 2007, 59 percent of the respondents said that the U.S. decision to invade Iraq was correct. “Poll Shows That Israel Is a Staunch American Ally,” Anti-Defamation League press release, May 18, 2007. By that time, most Americans had concluded that the war was a tragic mistake.
    “America’s Image Further Erodes, Europeans Want Weaker Ties: a Nine-Country Survey,” Pew Research Center for the People and the Press, Washington, DC, March 18, 2003. Also see Alan Travis and Ian Black, “Blair’s Popularity Plummets,” Guardian, February 18, 2003. Gideon Levy, “A Deafening Silence,” Haaretz, October 6, 2002.
    See Dan Izenberg, “Foreign Ministry Warns Israeli War Talk Fuels US Anti-Semitism,” Je­ rusalem Post, March 10, 2003, which makes clear that “the Foreign Ministry has received reports from the US” telling Israelis to be more circumspect because the U.S. media is portraying Israel as “trying to goad the administration into war.”
    Quoted in Dana Milbank, “Group Urges Pro-Israel Leaders Silence on Iraq,” Washington Post,November 27, 2002.
    David Horovitz, “Sharon Warns Colleagues Not to Discuss Iraq Conflict,” Irish Times, March 12, 2003. Also see James Bennet, “Threats and Responses: Israel’s Role; Not Urging War, Sharon Says,” New York Times, March 11, 2003; and Aluf Benn, “Sharon Says U.S. Should Also Disarm Iran, Libya and Syria,” Haaretz, February 18, 2003.

    The influence of the neoconservatives and their allies was widely reflected before the war and is clearly reflected in the following articles, all written before or just after the war be­ gan: Joel Beinin, “Pro-Israel Hawks and the Second Gulf War,” Middle East Report Online, April 6, 2003; Elisabeth Bumiller and Eric Schmitt, “On the Job and at Home, Influential Hawks’ 30-Year Friendship Evolves,” New York Times, September 11, 2002; Kathleen and Bill Christison, “A Rose by Another Name: The Bush Administration’s Dual Loyalties,” CounterPunch.org, December 13, 2002; Robert Dreyfuss, “The Pentagon Muzzles the CIA,” American Prospect, December 16, 2002; Michael Elliott and James Carney, “First Stop, Iraq,” Time, March 31, 2003; Seymour Hersh, “The Iraq Hawks,” New Yorker, December 24-31, 2001; Michael Hirsh, “Hawks, Doves and Dubya,” Newsweek, September 2, 2002; Glenn Kessler, “U.S. Decision on Iraq Has Puzzling Past,” Washington Post, January 12, 2003; Joshua M. Marshall, “Bomb Saddam?” Washington Monthly, June 2002; Dana Milbank, “White House Push for Iraqi Strike Is on Hold,” Washington Post, August 18, 2002; Susan Page, “Showdown with Saddam: The Decision to Act,” USA Today, September 11, 2002; Sam Tanenhaus, “Bush’s Brain Trust,” Vanity Fair (online), July 2003; Patrick E. Tyler and Elaine Sciolino, “Bush Advisers Split on Scope of Retaliation,” New York Times, September 20, 2001 ; and Jason A. Vest, “The Men from JINSA and CSP,” Nation, September 2/9, 2002. Janine Zacharia, “All the President’s Middle East Men,”Jerusalem Post, January 19,2001.

    55. “Rally Unites Anguished Factions Under Flag of ‘Stand with Israel,’” Forward, April 19, 2002; and “Forward 50,” Forward, November 15, 2002.

    56. John McCaslin, “Israeli-Trained Cops,” Washington Times, November 5, 2002; Bret Stephens, “Man of the Year,”Jerusalem Post (Rosh Hashana Supplement), September 26, 2003; and Janine Zacharia, “Invasive Treatment,” ibid. Other useful pieces on Wolfowitz in­ clude Peter J. Boyer, “The Believer,” New Yorker, November 1, 2004; Michael Dobbs, “For Wolfowitz, a Vision May Be Realized,” Washington Post, April 7, 2003; James Fallows, “The Unilateralist,” Atlantic, March 2002; Bill Keller, “The Sunshine Warrior,” New York Times Magazine, September 22, 2002; and “Paul Wolfowitz, Velociraptor,” Economist, February 7, 2002.

    See, for example, Douglas J. Feith, “The Inner Logic of Israel’s Negotiations: Withdrawal Process, Not Peace Process,” Middle East Quarterly 3, no. 1 (March 1996); and Douglas Feith, “A Strategy for Israel,” Commentary, September 1997. For useful discussions of Feith s views, see Jeffrey Goldberg, “A Little Learning: What Douglas Feith Knew and When He Knew It,” New Yorker, May 9, 2005; Jim Lobe, “Losing Feith, or Is the Bush Team Shedding Its Sharper Edges?” Daily Star (online), January 31, 2005; James J. Zogby, “A Dangerous Ap­ pointment: Profile of Douglas Feith, Undersecretary of Defense Under Bush,” Middle East Information Center, April 18, 2001; and “Israeli Settlements: Legitimate, Democratically Mandated, Vital to Israel’s Security and, Therefore, in U.S. Interest,” Center for Security Pol­ icy, Transition Brief no. 96-T 130, December 17, 1996. Note that the title of the latter piece, which was published by an organization in the lobby, says that what is in Israel’s interest is in America’s national interest. In “Losing Feith,” Lobe writes, “In 2003, when Feith, who was standing in for Rumsfeld at an interagency ‘Principals’ Meeting’ on the Middle East, con­ cluded his remarks on behalf of the Pentagon, according to the Washington insider newslet­ ter, The Nelson Report, [National Security Adviser Condoleezza] Rice said, ‘Thanks Doug, but when we want the Israeli position we’ll invite the ambassador.’”

    “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm” was prepared for the Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies in Jerusalem and published in June 1996. A copy can be found at http://www.iasps.org/stratl.htm.

    Akiva Eldar, “Perles of Wisdom for the Feithful,” Haaretz, October 1, 2002.

    Packer, Assassins ‘Gate, 32.

    “Israel’s UN Ambassador Slams Qatar, Praises U.S. Envoy Bolton,” Haaretz, May 23, 2006.

    Also see “Bolton Is Israel’s Secret Weapon, Says Gillerman,” BigNewsNetwork.com, Novem­

    ber 18, 2006; and Ori Nir, “Senate Probes Bolton’s Pro-Israel Efforts,” Forward, May 6, 2005.

    Marc Perelman, “Siding with White House, Groups Back Bolton,” Forward, November 17,

    2006; and “Dear John,” Forward editorial, December 8, 2006.

    Ori Nir, “Libby Played Leading Role on Foreign Policy Decisions,” Forward, November 4,

    2005.

    “He Tarries: Jewish Messianism and the Oslo Peace,” Rennert Lecture for 2002. Krautham­

    mer fiercely defends Israel at every turn in his columns.

    65. Asia Aydintasbas, “The Midnight Ride of James Woolsey,” Salon.com, December 20, 2001;

    Anne E. Kornblut and Bryan Bender, “Cheney Link of Iraq, 9/11 Dismissed,” Boston Globe, September 16, 2003; David E. Sanger and Robin Toner, “Bush and Cheney Talk Strongly of Qaeda Links with Hussein,” New York Times, June 18, 2004; and R. James Woolsey, “The Iraq Connection,” Wall Street Journal, October 18,2001.

    Goldberg added that “among Jewish lobbyists in the Beltway, support for the impending war is almost taken for granted—several are puzzled by the very suggestion that any kind of strenuous opposition to an Iraq invasion might emerge.” Michelle Goldberg, “Why Ameri­ can Jewish Groups Support War with Iraq,” Salon.com, September 14, 2002.

    “An Unseemly Silence,” Forward editorial, May 7, 2004.

    Nacha Cattan, “Resolutions on Invasion Divide Jewish Leadership,” Forward, October 11,

    2002; Laurie Goodstein, “Threats and Responses: American Jews; Divide Among Jews Leads to Silence on Iraq War,” New York Times, March 15, 2003; and Milbank, “Group Urges.”

    Matthew E. Berger, “Jewish Groups Back U.S. Stand on Iraq,” Jewish Journal (online), Oc­ tober 18, 2002; and Jewish Council for Public Affairs, “Statement on Iraq,” adopted by the JCPA Board of Directors, October 2002.
    Mortimer B. Zuckerman, “No Time for Equivocation,” U.S. News & World Report, August 2 6 / September 2, 2002. Also see Mortimer B. Zuckerman, “No More Cat and Mouse,” U.S. News &• World Report, October 28, 2002; Mortimer B. Zuckerman, “Clear and Compelling Proof,” U.S. News & World Report, February 10, 2003; and Mortimer B. Zuckerman, “The High Price of Waiting,” U.S. News & World Report, March 10, 2003.

    Both quotes are from Goldberg, “Why American Jewish Groups.”
    Gary Rosenblatt, “The Case for War Against Saddam,” Jewish Week, December 13, 2002. Also see Gary Rosenblatt, “Hussein Asylum,” Jewish Week, August 23, 2002.
    Ron Kampeas, “Cheney: Iran, Iraq a Package Deal,” JTA.org, March 13, 2007.
    Nathan Guttman, “Background: AIPAC and the Iraqi Opposition,” Haaretz, April 7, 2003. Also see Dana Milbank, “For Israel Lobby Group, War Is Topic A, Quietly,” Washington Post, April 1, 2003.
    David Twersky, “A Bittersweet Affair for AIPAC,” New York Sun, January 23, 2003. On the ADL, see Cattan, “Resolutions on Invasion”; Nacha Cattan, “Jewish Groups Pressed to Line Up on Iraq,” Forward, August 23, 2002; and Nathan Guttman, “Groups Mum on Iraq, Despite Antiwar Tide,” Forward, March 2, 2007.
    Jeffrey Goldberg, “Real Insiders: A Pro-Israel Lobby and an FBI Sting,” New Yorker, July 4, 2005. Near East Report (NER), AIPAC’s biweekly publication dealing with Middle East is­ sues, is filled with articles dealing with Iraq in the months before the war began. Although none explicitly calls for invading Iraq, they all portray Saddam as an especially dangerous threat, leaving the reader with little doubt that both Israel and the United States will be in serious trouble if he is not toppled from power. See, for example, “Saddam’s Diversion,” NER, October 7, 2002; interview with Ze’ev Schiff, NER, October 21, 2002; interview with Amatzia Baram, NER, February 25, 2002; interview with Amatzia Baram, NER, October 7, 2002; interview with Kenneth M. Pollack, NER, September 23, 2002; “Arming Iraq,” NER, July 1, 2002; and “Backing Saddam,” NER, February 3, 2003.
    John Bresnahan, “GOP Turns to Israeli Lobby to Boost Iraq Support,” Roll Call (online), October 6, 2003.
    Matthew E. Berger, “Bush Makes Iraq Case in AIPAC Appearance,” Deep South Jewish Voice (online), May 11, 2004.
    David Horovitz, “Editor’s Notes: Wading into the Great Debate,” Jerusalem Post, March 15, 2007. According to Ron Kampeas, Cheney’s “message was not received enthusiastically. Only about one-third to one-half of the audience . . . applauded politely.” See “Cheney: Iran, Iraq a Package Deal.” Similarly, Nathan Guttman wrote that Cheney’s speech “re­ ceived a lukewarm welcome.” See “Cheney Links Action on Iran to Winning Iraq,” Forward, March 16, 2007. However, writing in Salon, Gregory Levey noted that “Cheney got a warm reception and forceful applause.” See “Inside America’s Powerful Israel Lobby,” Salon.com, March 16, 2007.
    On the reception Boehner and Pelosi received, see Guttman, “Cheney Links Action”; Levey, “Inside”; and Ian Swanson, “Pelosi Hears Boos at AIPAC,” The Hill (online), March 13, 2007. Guttman, “Groups Mum on Iraq.”
    Ibid.; and Jeffrey M. Jones, “Among Religious Groups, Jewish Americans Most Strongly Op­ pose War,” Gallup News Service, February 23, 2007.
    Shortly before the United States invaded Iraq, Congressman James P. Moran created a stir when he said, “If it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for this war with Iraq, we would not be doing this.” Quoted in Hsu, “Moran Said.” However, Moran mis­ spoke, because there was not widespread support for the war in the Jewish community. He should have said, “If it were not for the strong support of the neoconservatives and the lead­ ership of the Israel lobby for this war with Iraq, we would not be doing this.”

    Samuel G. Freedman, “Don’t Blame Jews for This War,” USA Today, April 2, 2003. Also see

    James D. Besser, “Jews Souring on Iraq War,” Jewish Week, September 24, 2004; Goodstein, “Threats and Responses”; and Ori Nir, “Poll Finds Jewish Political Gap,” Forward, February 4, 2005. The same situation obtained before the 1991 Gulf War. By the time Congress voted to endorse the war on January 12, 1991, “the only significant Washington Jewish organization not on record in favor of the administration’s position was American Friends of Peace Now, which favored the continuation of sanctions.” Judis, “Jews and the Gulf,” 13. Despite the lobby’s efforts to make the 1991 war happen, however, a large portion of the American Jew­ ish community opposed the war, as was the case in 2003. For example, Jewish members of the House of Representatives voted 1 7 – 1 6 against the resolution authorizing war, while Jew­ ish senators voted 5-3 against it. Ibid., 14. This outcome reflects the fact that in contrast to what happened in 2002—03, there was a serious debate in 1990-91 about whether to go to war against Iraq, as well as the fact that the lobby sometimes takes positions that are at odds with a substantial portion of the American Jewish community.

    The January 26, 1998, letter can be found on the website of the Project for the New Amer­ ican Century, http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm; the February 19, 1998, letter can be found on the Iraq Watch website, http://www.iraqwatch.org/perspectives/rumsfeld- openletter.htm. For background on the Committee for Peace and Security in the Gulf, see Judis, “Jews and the Gulf,” 12. Also see the May 29, 1998, letter to Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich and Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott written under the auspices of PNAC, http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqletterl998.htm. The neoconservatives, it should be emphasized, advocated invading Iraq to topple Saddam. See “The End of Containment,” Weekly Standard, December 1, 1997; Zalmay M. Khalilzad and Paul Wolfowitz, “Overthrow Him,” ibid.; Frederick W. Kagan, “Not by Air Alone,” ibid.; and Robert Kagan, “A Way to Oust Saddam,” Weekly Standard, September 28, 1998.

    A copy of the Iraq Liberation Act can be found at http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/ Legislation/ILA.htm.
    John Dizard, “How Ahmed Chalabi Conned the Neocons,” Salon.com, May 4, 2004; “Iraqi Myths,” Jerusalem Post editorial, October 7, 1998; Seth Gitell, “Neocons Meet Israeli to Gain U.S. Backing,” Forward, July 31, 1998; Kagan, “Way to Oust Saddam”; Martin Kettle, “Pentagon Balks at ‘Idiotic’ Law Urging Bay of Pigs-type Invasion of Iraq,” Guardian, Octo­ ber 21,1998;andVernonLoeb,”CongressStokesVisionsofWar toOustSaddam;White House Fears Fiasco in Aid to Rebels,” Washington Post, October 20, 1998. On JINSA, see “Concrete Responses to Saddam,” jinsa.org, Report no. 79, August 10, 1998; “To Overthrow Saddam,” jinsa.org, Report no. 82, October 2, 1998; “Spring 1998 Board Resolution—Iraq,”

    jinsa.org, March 22, 1998; and “Resolution in Support of the Iraqi Opposition,” jinsa.org, October 19, 1998.
    See Clinton’s comments after he signed the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. Statement by the President, White House Press Office, October 31, 1998. Also see Kettle, “Pentagon Balks”; and Loeb, “Congress Stokes.”

    Vernon Loeb, “Saddam’s Iraqi Foes Heartened by Clinton,” Washington Post, November 16, 1998; Nicholas Lemann, “The Iraq Factor: Will the New Bush Team’s Old Memories Shape Its Foreign Policies?” New Yorker, January 22, 2001; and Robert Litwak, Rogue States and U.S. Foreign Policy (Washington, DC: Woodrow Wilson Center Press, 2000), chap. 4. Packer, Assassins’ Gate, 41.

    Jane Perlez, “Capitol Hawks Seek Tougher Line on Iraq,” New York Times, March 7, 2001; and “Have Hawks Become Doves?” Washington Times editorial, March 8, 2001. Also see Stefan Halper and Jonathan Clarke, America Alone: The Neo-Conservatives and the Global Order (NewYork: Cambridge University Press, 2004), 129-31.

    Richard A. Clarke, Against All Enemies: Inside America’s War on Terror (New York: Free Press, 2004); and Ron Suskind, The Price of Loyalty: George W. Bush, the White House, and the Education of Paul O’Neill (NewYork: Simon & Schuster, 2004).
    Bob Woodward, Plan of Attack (NewYork: Simon & Schuster, 2004), 12. Also see Lemann,

    “Iraq Factor”; and Eric Schmitt and Steven Lee Meyers, “Bush Administration Warns Iraq on Weapons Programs,” New York Times, January 2 3 , 2 0 0 1 .

    She also noted that if Iraq did get W M D , the appropriate U.S. response would be a “clear and classical statement of deterrence—if they do acquire W M D , their weapons will be un­ usable because any attempt to use them will bring national obliteration.” Condoleezza Rice, “Promoting the National Interest,” Foreign Affairs 79, no. 1 (January/February 2000): 60-62. Timothy Noah, “Dick Cheney, Dove,” Slate.com, October 16, 2002; Adam Meyerson, “Calm After Desert Storm,” interview with Dick Cheney, Policy Reiriew 65 (Summer 1993). Quoted in Kessler, “U.S. Decision on Iraq Has Puzzling Past.” Elliott and Carney (“First Stop, Iraq”) report that neoconservatives like William Kristol were upset when Cheney was chosen as Bush’s running mate, because of Cheney’s position on ending the first Gulf War. But after 9 / 1 1 , says Kristol, “neoconservatives happily consider him a fellow-traveler.’” Elliott and Carney, “First Stop, Iraq”; Glenn Kessler and Peter Slavin, “Cheney Is Fulcrum of Foreign Policy,” Washington Post, October 13, 2002; Kessler, “U.S. Decision on Iraq Has Puzzling Past”; and “Vice President Dick Cheney Talks About Bush’s Energy Plan,” inter­ view with Tim Russert on NBC’s Meet the Press, May 20, 2001. Although Cheney’s views on conquering Iraq fundamentally changed after 9 / 1 1 , this apparently did not happen overnight. See “The Vice President Appears on Meet the Press with Tim Russert,” Camp David, Maryland, Office of the White House Press Secretary, September 16, 2001. Cheney’s response to specific questions about Iraq does not indicate that he had changed his thinking about the need to topple Saddam five days after the Twin Towers fell.

    Both Kagan quotations are from Packer, Assassins’ Gate, 38. Also see similar comments by Packer himself in ibid., 32.
    Woodward, Plan of Attack, 25-26.
    Page, “Showdown with Saddam.”

    Elliott and Carney, “First Stop, Iraq.” Woodward describes Wolfowitz as “like a drum that would not stop.” Plan of Attack, 22.
    Woodward, Plan of Attack, 1-44.
    Regarding the neoconservatives’ influence on Cheney, see Elliott and Carney, “First Stop, Iraq”; Page, “Showdown with Saddam”; Michael Hirsh, “Bernard Lewis Revisited,” Wash­ ington Monthly, November 2004; Frederick Kempe, “Lewis’s ‘Liberation’ Doctrine for Mid­ east Faces New Tests,” Wall Street Journal, December 13, 2005; and Caria Anne Robbins and Jeanne Cummings, “How Bush Decided That Hussein Must Be Ousted from Atop Iraq,” Wall Street Journal, June 14, 2002. On Ajami in particular, see Adam Shatz, “The Na­ tive Informant,” Nation, April 28, 2003.

    Jacob Weisberg, “Are Neo-cons History?” Financial Times, March 14, 2007. This article makes clear that Cheney and Lewis have a close relationship.
    Woodward succinctly describes Libby’s influence in Plan of Attack (48—49): “Libby had three formal titles. He was chief of staff to Vice President Cheney; he was also national se­ curity adviser to the vice president; and he was finally an assistant to President Bush. It was a trifecta of positions probably never held before by a single person. Scooter was a power center unto himself . . . Libby was one of only two people who were not principals to attend the National Security Council meetings with the president and the separate principals meetings chaired by Rice.”Also see ibid., 50-51, 288-92, 300-301, 409-10; Bumiller and Schmitt, “On the Job and at Home”; Karen Kwiatkowski, “The New Pentagon Papers,” Salon.com, March 10, 2004; and Tyler and Sciolino, “Bush Advisers Split.”

    Tyler and Sciolino, “Bush Advisers Split.” Also see Bumiller and Schmitt, “On the Job and at Home”; and William Safire, “Phony War II,” New York Times, November 28, 2002.
    On Cheney’s significant influence in the Bush administration, see Jeanne Cummings and Greg Hitt, “In Iraq Drama, Cheney Emerges as President’s War Counselor,” Wall Street Journal, March 17, 2003; Mark Hosenball, Michael Isikoff, and Evan Thomas, “Cheney’s Long Path to War,” Newsweek, November 17, 2003; Kessler and Slavin, “Cheney Is Ful-

    crum”; Barbara Slavin and Susan Page, “Cheney Rewrites Roles in Foreign Policy,” USA To­ day, July 29, 2002; and Woodward, Plan of Attack, 27-30.
    Kessler, “U.S. Decision on Iraq Has Puzzling Past”; and Woodward, Plan of Attack, 410. Also see ibid., 164-65,409.

    Quoted in Eric Schmitt, “Pentagon Contradicts General on Iraq Occupation Force’s Size,” New York Times, February 28, 2003.
    “This Goes Beyond Bin Laden,” jinsa.org, September 13, 2 0 0 1 . Also see Vest, “The Men from JINSA and CSP.”

    This letter was published in the Weekly Standard, October 1, 2001. Among the signatories were William Bennett, Eliot Cohen, Aaron Friedberg, Donald Kagan, Robert Kagan, Jeane Kirkpatrick, William Kristol, Charles Krauthammer, Richard Perle, Norman Podhoretz, Stephen Solarz, and Leon Wieseltier.

    Charles Krauthammer, “The War: A Road Map,” Washington Post, September 28, 2001 ; and Robert Kagan and William Kristol, “The Right War,” Weekly Standard, October 1, 2001. Also see “War Aims,” Wall Street Journal editorial, September 20,2001.
    Michael Barone, “War by Ultimatum,” U.S. News & World Report, October 1, 2001. Also see Bill Gertz, “Iraq Suspected of Sponsoring Terrorist Attacks,” Washington Times, Septem­ ber 21, 2001; “Drain the Ponds of Terror,” Jerusalem Post editorial, September 25, 2001; William Safire, “The Ultimate Enemy,” New York Times, September 24, 2001 ; and Mortimer B. Zuckerman, “A Question of Priorities,” U.S. News &• World Report, October 8, 2001.

    The April 3, 2002, letter can be found at http://www.newamericancentury.org/Bushletter- 040302.htm.
    Daniel Byman, Kenneth M. Pollack, and Gideon Rose, “The Rollback Fantasy,” Foreign Af­

    fairs 78, no. 1 (January/February 1999).
    Kenneth M. Pollack, The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq (New York: Random House, 2002); Kenneth M. Pollack, “Why Iraq Can’t Be Deterred,” New York Times, Sep­ tember 26, 2002; Kenneth M. Pollack, “A Last Chance to Stop Iraq,” New York Times, Feb­ ruary 21, 2003; Martin S. Indyk and Kenneth M. Pollack, “How Bush Can Avoid the Inspections Trap,” New York Times, January 27, 2003; and Martin S. Indyk and Kenneth M. Pollack, “Lock and Load,” Los Angeles Times, December 19, 2002.
    William Kristol, “The Axis of Appeasement,” Weekly Standard, August 26/September 2, 2002; Robert Bartley, “Thinking Things Over: What We Learned,” Wall Street Journal, September 9, 2002; Michael Ledeen, “Scowcroft Strikes Out,” National Review Online, August 6, 2002; George Melloan, “Who Really Doubts That Saddam’s Got to Go,” Wall Street Journal, Sep­ tember 10, 2002; John O’Sullivan, “Chamberlain Deserves an Apology: Scowcroft, Hagel, and Raines Are No Chamberlains,” National Review Online, September 3, 2002; “This Is Opposition? There Is No Revolt in the GOP Against Bush’s Iraq Policy,” Wall Street Journal editorial, August 19, 2002; and “Who Is Brent Scowcroft?” New York Sun editorial, August 19, 2002. None of the targets of the neoconservatives’ ire were advocating appeasement of Iraq but instead favored containment over war.
    William Safire, “Our ‘Relentless’ Liberation,” New York Times, October 8, 2001. Also see William Safire, “Saddam and Terror,” New York Times, August 22, 2002; and William Safire, “BigMo,”New YorkTimes, November 19,2001.
    Robert Kagan, “On to Phase II,” Washington Post, November 27, 2001; Robert Kagan and William Kristol, “What to Do About Iraq,” Weekly Standard, January 21, 2002; and Safire, “Saddam and Terror.”

    Robert Kagan and William Kristol, “The U.N. Trap?” Weekly Standard, November 18, 2002; Charles Krauthammer, “A Costly Charade at the U.N.,” Washington Post, February 28, 2003; George F. Will, “Stuck to the U.N. Tar Baby,” Washington Post, September 19, 2002; and William Safire, “The French Connection,” New York Times, March 14, 2003. Krauthammer, “Our First Move.” Also see Reuel Marc Gerecht, “A Necessary War,” Weekly Standard, October 21, 2002; and Charles Krauthammer, “Where Power Talks,” Washington Post, January 4, 2002.

    An excellent account of the administration’s campaign to sell the war is Frank Rich, The Greatest Story Ever Sold: The Decline and Fall of Truth from 9/11 to Katrina (NewYork: Pen­ guin Press, 2006).

    James Bamford, A Pretext for War: 9/11, Iraq, and the Abuse of America’s Intelligence Agen­ cies (NewYork: Doubleday, 2004), chaps. 13-14; Karen DeYoung, Soldier: The Life of Colin Powell (NewYork: Knopf, 2006), 440-46; and Woodward, Plan of Attack, 288-92, 297-301. Also see ibid., 72, 163.

    Woodward, Plan of Attack, 290.

    “Powell Regrets UN Speech on Iraq WMDs,” ABC News Online, September 9, 2005.

    Bamford, Pretext for War, 287-91, 307-31 ;Julian Borger, “The Spies Who Pushed for War,”

    Guardian, July 17, 2003; David S. Cloud, “Prewar Intelligence Inquiry Zeroes in on Penta­ gon Office,” Wall Street Journal, March 11, 2004; Seymour M. Hersh, “Selective Intelli­ gence,” New Yorker, May 12, 2003; Kwiatkowski, “New Pentagon Papers”; W. Patrick Lang, “Drinking the Kool-Aid,” Middle East Policy 11, no. 2 (Summer 2004); Jim Lobe, “Pentagon Office Home to Neo-Con Network,” Inter Press Service, August 7, 2003; Greg Miller, “Spy Unit Skirted CIA on Iraq,” Los Angeles Times, March 10, 2004; Paul R. Pillar, “Intelligence, Policy, and the War in Iraq,” Foreign Affairs 85, no. 2 (March-April 2006); James Risen, “How Pair’s Finding on Terror Led to Clash on Shaping Intelligence,” New York Times, April 28, 2004; and Eric Schmitt and Thorn Shanker, “Threats and Responses: A C.I.A. Rival; Pentagon Sets Up Intelligence Unit,” New York Times, October 24, 2002.

    Risen, State of War, 72-73.

    Lobe, “Pentagon Office.” On Makovsky, see Jack Herman, “A Whole New Ballgame Over­

    seas,” St. Louis Post-Dispatch, February 20, 1989. This article was written when Makovsky was about to leave the United States and move to Israel. “I have strong feelings about help­ ing to build a Jewish state,” he told Herman. He then added, “It’s like returning to your roots.”

    Borger, “The Spies.”

    Inspector General, Department of Defense, “Review of the Pre—Iraqi War Activities of the

    Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy,” Report no. 07-INTEL-04, February 9,

    2007.

    Franklin Foer, “Founding Fakers,” New Republic, August 18, 2003.

    Robert Dreyfuss, “Tinker, Banker, NeoCon, Spy,” American Prospect, November 18, 2002.

    Also see “Who Will Lead a Free Iraq?”jinsa.org, May 9, 2003; and “Creating a Post-Saddam

    Iraq,”jinsa.org, Report no. 481,April 6, 2005.

    Quoted in Dreyfuss, “Tinker, Banker.” Also see Matthew E. Berger, “Iraqi Exiles and Jews

    Form Unlikely Alliance,” Jewish News Weekly (online), October 18, 2002; Juan Cole, “All the Vice-President’s Men,” Salon.com, October 28, 2005; and Michelle Goldberg, “The War over the Peace,” Salon.com, April 14, 2003.

    Quoted in Robert Dreyfuss, “Chalabi and AEI: The Sequel,” TomPaine.com, November 10, 2005. Also see Laurie Mylroie, “Unusually Effective,” New York Sun, November 8, 2005; and Michael Rubin, “Iraq’s Comeback Kid,” National Review Online, December 5, 2005.

    Bernard Lewis, “Put the Iraqis in Charge,” Wall Street Journal, August 29, 2003. Also see Ian Buruma, “Lost in Translation,” New Yorker, June 14, 2004; and Michael Hirsh, “Bernard Lewis Revisited,” Washington Monthly, November 2004.

    Dizard, “How Ahmed Chalabi Conned the Neocons.” In mid-June 2003, Benjamin Ne­ tanyahu announced, “It won’t be long when you will see Iraqi oil flowing to Haifa.” Reuters, “Netanyahu Says Iraq-Israel Oil Line Not Pipe-Dream,” Haaretz, June 20, 2003. Of course, this did not happen and it is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future. Also see Douglas Davis, “Peace with Israel Said to Top New Iraq’s Agenda,” Jerusalem Post, April 21, 2003.

    Matthew E. Berger, “New Chance to Build Israel-Iraq Ties,” Jewish Journal (online), April 28, 2003. Also see Bamford, Pretext to War, 293; and Ed Blanche, “Securing Iraqi Oil for Israel: The Plot Thickens,” Lebanonwire.com, April 25, 2003.

    Nathan Guttman, “Mutual Wariness: AIPAC and the Iraqi Opposition,” Haaretz, April 27, 2003.

    Quoted in Packer, Assassins’ Gate, 41.

    Friedman qualifed this remark by adding, “In the final analysis, what fomented the war is

    America’s over-reaction to September 11.” We agree; it was a combination of the neoconser­ vatives’ active promotion of the war, the support from key groups in the lobby, and a partic­ ular set of international and domestic circumstances that led the United States into the Iraqi quagmire. See Shavit, “White Man’s Burden.”

    Noam Chomsky, “The Israel Lobby?” Znet (online), March 28, 2006. Also see Stephen Zunes, “The Israel Lobby: How Powerful Is It Really?” Znet (online), May 25, 2006.

    One pundit notes that the “preferred slogan” of the antiwar forces in the run-up to the Iraq

    war was “no blood for oil.” John B. Judis, “Over a Barrel,” New Republic, January 20, 2003, 20. Also see William R. Clark, Petrodollar Warfare: Oil, Iraq and the Future of the Dollar (Gabriola Island, Canada: New Society Publishers, 2005); Michael Elliott, “The Selling of the President’s War: Bush Should Take Israel and Oil Out of the Iraq Equation,” Time, No­ vember 18, 2002; Michael Meacher, “This War on Terrorism Is Bogus,” Guardian, Septem­ ber 6, 2003; Kevin Phillips, “American Petrocacy,” American Conservative, July 17, 2006; and Sandy Tolan, “Beyond Regime Change,” Los Angeles Times, December 1, 2002.

    Judis, “Jews and the Gulf,” 16-17.

    Stephen J. Hedges, “Allies Not Swayed on Iraq Strike,” Chicago Tribune, August 28, 2002;

    “Saudi Arabia Says It Won’t Join a War,” New York Times, March 19, 2003; “Saudis Warn US over Iraq War,” B B C News (online), February 17, 2003; Jon Sawyer, “Saudi Arabia Won’t Back War on Iraq without U.N. Authority, Prince Warns,” St. Louis Post-Dispatch (online), January 23, 2003; “Scorecard: For or Against Military Action,” New York Times, August 27, 2002; and Brian Whitaker and John Hooper, “Saudis Will Not Aid US War Effort,” Guardian, August 8, 2002.

    Peter Beinart, “Crude,” New Republic, October 7, 2002; Michael Moran and Alex Johnson, “The Rush for Iraq’s Oil,” MSNBC.com, November 7, 2002; Anthony Sampson, “Oilmen Don’t Want Another Suez,” Observer, December 22, 2002; John W. Schoen, “Iraqi Oil, American Bonanza?” MSNBC.com, November 11, 2002; and Daniel Yergin, “A Crude View of the Crisis in Iraq,” Washington Post, December 8, 2002.

    Remarks by the Vice President to the Veterans of Foreign Wars 103rd National Convention, Nashville, Tennessee (White House, Office of the Press Secretary, August 26, 2002). Also see Remarks by the Vice President to the Veterans of the Korean War, San Antonio, Texas (White House, Office of the Press Secretary, August 29, 2002).

    For a copy of the speech, see “In the President’s Words: ‘Free People Will Keep the Peace of the World,’” New York Times, February 27, 2003. Also see Remarks by the President to the United Nations General Assembly, New York (White House, Office of the Press Secretary, September 12, 2002); Remarks by the President to the Graduating Class, West Point (White House, Office of the Press Secretary, June 1, 2002); President’s Inaugural Speech, Washington, DC (White House, Office of the Press Secretary, January 20, 2005); and Na­ tional Security Strategy of the United States (2002).

    Robert S. Greenberger and Karby Leggett, “President’s Dream: Changing Not Just Regime but a Region: A Pro-U.S., Democratic Area Is a Goal That Has Israeli and Neoconserva­ tive Roots,” Wall Street Journal, March 21, 2003. Also see George Packer, “Dreaming of Democracy,” New York Times Magazine, March 2, 2003; Paul Sperry, “Bush the Nation- Builder: So Much for Campaign Promises,” Antiwar.com, October 6, 2006; and Wayne Washington, “Once Against Nation-Building, Bush Now Involved,” Boston Globe, March 2, 2004.

    Charles Krauthammer, “Peace Through Democracy,” Washington Post, June 28, 2002.

    Barak, “Taking Apart.”

    Quoted in Lynfield, “Israel Sees Opportunity in Possible U.S. Strike on Iraq.”

    Benn, “Background.”

    Bennet, “Israel Says.”

    Shalev, “Jerusalem Frets.”

    See, for example, Rebuilding America’s Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New

    Century, Report of the Project for the New American Century (Washington, DC, Septem­

    ber 2000), 14, 17-18.

    Martin Indyk, “The Clinton Administration’s Approach to the Middle East,” speech to Soref

    Symposium, Washington Institute for Near East Policy, May 18, 1993. Also see Anthony

    Lake, “Confronting Backlash States,” Foreign Affairs 73, no. 2 (March/April 1994).

    Kenneth M. Pollack, The Persian Puzzle: The Conflict Between Iran and America (New York:

    Random House, 2004), 261-65.

    Robert Kagan and William Kristol, eds., Present Dangers: Crisis and Opportunity in Ameri­

    can Foreign and Defense Policy (San Francisco: Encounter Books, 2000); Charles Kraut­ hammer, “Universal Dominion: Toward a Unipolar World,” National Interest 18 (Winter 1989/90); Michael A. Ledeen, Freedom Betrayed: How America Led a Global Democratic Revolution, Won the Cold War, and Walked Away (Washington, DC: AEI Press, 1996); Joshua Muravchik, Exporting Democracy: Fulfilling America’s Destiny (Washington, DC: AEI Press, 1991); Marina Ottaway et al., “Democratic Mirage in the Middle East,” Policy Brief 20 (Washington, DC: Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, October 2002); Norman Podhoretz, “Strange Bedfellows: A Guide to the New Foreign-Policy Debates,” Commentary, December 1999; “Statement of Principles,” Project for the New American Century, June 3, 1997; and Albert Wohlstetter, “A Vote in Cuba? Why Not in Iraq?” Wall

    Street Journal, May 24, 1991.

    On the neoconservatives’ thinking about regional transformation, see Robert Blecher, “Free

    People Will Set the Course of History,” Middle East Report Online, March 2003; Jack Don­ nelly and Anthony Shadid, “Iraq War Hawks Have Plans to Reshape Entire Mideast,” Boston Globe, September 10, 2002; Halper and Clarke, America Alone, 76-90; Nicholas Le­ mann, “After Iraq: The Plan to Remake the Middle East,” New Yorker, February 17, 2003; and Klein, “How Israel.”

    Quoted in Roula Khalaf, “Rice ‘New Middle East’ Comments Fuel Arab Fury over US Pol­ icy,” Financial Times, July 31, 2006.

    Orly Halpern, “Israeli Experts Say Middle East Was Safer with Saddam in Iraq,” Forward, January 5, 2007. Also see Leslie Susser, “Iraq War: Good or Bad for Israel? Saddam’s Exe­ cution Revives Debate,” JTA.org, January 2, 2007.

    Quoted in Chris McGreal, “Israelis May Regret Saddam Ousting, Says Security Chief,” Guardian, February 9, 2006.

    James A. Baker III and Lee H. Hamilton, co-chairs, The Iraq Study Group Report (NewYork: Random House, 2006), xv, 28-29, 43-45, 50-58. Tony Blair, who repeatedly called for set­ tling the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and who favors negotiating with Iran and Syria, said that the Iraq Study Group “offers a strong way forward.” Quoted in Sheryl Gay Stolberg and Kate Zernike, “Bush Expresses Caution on Key Points in Iraq Panel’s Report,” New York Times, December 7, 2006. Also see Kirk Semple, “Syrian Official, in Iraq, Offers Assis­ tance,” New York Times, November 19, 2006.

    Akiva Eldar, “The Gewalt Agenda,” Haaretz, November 20, 2006.

    Michael Abramowitz and Glenn Kessler, “Hawks Bolster Skeptical President,” Washington

    Post, December 10, 2006; Associated Press, “Israel Experts Doubt Focusing on Israel-Arab Conflict Will Help in Iraq,”International Herald Tribune, December 6, 2006; “Gates’s Shock­ ing Thinking on Iran,” Jerusalem Post editorial, December 6, 2006; Nathan Guttman, “Baker Group Advisers ‘Surprised,’ ‘Upset’ at Report’s Israel-Iraq Link,” Forward, January 30, 2007; Jeff Jacoby, “Fighting to Win in Iraq,” Boston Globe, December 3, 2006; Robert Kagan and William Kristol, “A Perfect Failure,” Weekly Standard, December 11, 2006; Ron Kampeas, “ISG Fallout Continues with Query: Is Israeli-Arab Peace the Linchpin?”/TA.org, December 10, 2006; Jim Lobe, “Neocons Move to Preempt Baker Report,” Antiwar.com, December 6, 2006; Marc Perelman, “As Washington Studies Iraq Report, Jerusalem Frets over Tehran

    Talk,” Forward, December 15, 2006; Shmuel Rosner, “Baker’s Brew,” Haaretz, December 8,

    2006; and “The Iraq Muddle Group,” Wall Street Journal editorial, December 7, 2006.

    Quoted in Shmuel Rosner, “FM Livni: U.S. Must Stand Firm on Iraq,” Haaretz, March 13, 2007. Also see Shmuel Rosner, “Livni to AIPAC: U.S. Can’t Show Weakness on Iraq, Iran,”

    Haaretz, March 12, 2007.

    The Olmert quotations are from Bradley Burston, “Israel Must Stay the Hell Out of U.S.

    Debate on Iraq,” Haaretz, March 13, 2007; and Hilary L. Krieger, “PM’s AIPAC Talk Sur­

    prises Delegates,” Jerusalem Post, March 13, 2007.

    Burston, “Israel Must Stay.” Also see Krieger, “PM’s AIPAC Talk”; and Shmuel Rosner, “No

    Easy Answers on Israel and the Iraq Debate,” Haaretz, March 13, 2007.

    “President Bush Welcomes Prime Minister Olmert of Israel to the White House,” White

    House, Office of the Press Secretary, November 13, 2006.

    Quoted in James D. Besser, “Olmert Support for Iraq War Stirs Anger,” Jewish Week, No­

    vember 17, 2006.

    David Horovitz, “Editor’s Notes: Wading into the Great Debate,” Jerusalem Post, March 15,

    2007.

    Quoted in Glenn Frankel, “A Beautiful Friendship?” Washington Post Sunday Magazine,

    July 16, 2006.

    Martin Kramer, “The American Interest,” Azure 5767, no. 26 (Fall 2006): 29. Kramer also

    claims that “the assertion that the Iraq war is being waged on behalf of Israel is pure fiction,” a remark at odds with Prime Minister Olmert’s statement to the 2007 AIPAC Policy Con­ ference, where he explicitly linked Israel’s security to victory in Iraq. See note 167 above. Also see Yossi Alpher, “Sharon Warned Bush,” Forward, January 12, 2007.

    Alpher, “Sharon Warned Bush.” Also see Herb Keinon, “Sharon Warned Bush of Saddam Threat,” Jerusalem Post, January 11, 2007.

    See notes 21 and 25 above.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    I am going to inject here that I don’t think that is what they said.
     
    Here's a direct quote from page 58 of an exclusive FP Roundtable, The War Over Israel's Influence, in which the truth-telling professors faced off with four distinguished experts of the Middle East over whether the influence of the Israel lobby is ordinary or extraordinary:

    We believe the United States would not have attacked Iraq without their [the Israel Lobby's] efforts.

    http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0042.pdf

     

    presented irrefutable evidence that the invasion of Iraq would not have occurred

    We believe the United States would not have attacked Iraq without their [the Israel Lobby's] efforts.

    Believing and presenting irrefutable evidence are not the same.

    I will concede your point that they say it would not have happened without the efforts of the lobby/Lobby.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    Believing and presenting irrefutable evidence are not the same.
     
    Do the 175 notes for Chapter 8: IRAQ AND DREAMS OF TRANSFORMING THE MIDDLE EAST, (The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy) qualify as "presenting irrefutable evidence"?



    George Packer, The Assassins' Gate: America in Iraq (New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2005), 46. Former CIA director George Tenet offers a similar view, writing in his memoirs that "one of the great mysteries to me is when the war in Iraq became inevitable." George Tenet with Bill Harlow, At the Center of the Storm: My Years at the CIA (New York: Harper, 2007), 301.

    As the New York Times columnist Thomas L. Friedman reportedly observed in May 2003, "It is not only the neoconservatives who led us to the outskirts of Baghdad. What led us to the outskirts of Baghdad is a very American combination of anxiety and hubris." See Ari Shavit, "White Man's Burden," Haaretz, May 4, 2003.

    Quoted in Emad Mekay, "Iraq Was Invaded 'to Protect Israel'—US Officiai," Asia Times On­ line, March 31, 2004. We used these quotations in our original article in the London Review of Books, and Zelikow challenged our interpretation of them. We based our discussion on a full and unimpeachable record of his remarks, and his challenge has no basis in fact. For a more detailed discussion of Zelikow's charge and our response, see "Letters," London Re­ view of Books, May 25, 2006. Zelikow also served with Rice on the National Security Coun­ cil during the first Bush administration and later coauthored a book with her on German reunification. He was one of the principal authors of the document that is probably the most comprehensive statement of the Bush Doctrine: The National Security Strategy of the United States of America (Washington, DC: White House, September 2002).

    Quoted in "US Assumes UK Help in Iraq, Says General," Guardian, August 20, 2002. Quoted in an interview with Sascha Lehnartz, "Dann helfen uns eben die Osteuropaer," Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung, January 26, 2003. On the influence of the Defense Policy Board in Donald Rumsfeld's Pentagon, see Stephen J. Hedges, "Iraq Hawks Have Bush's Ear," Chicago Tribune, August 18, 2002.
    Joe Klein, "How Israel Is Wrapped Up in Iraq," Time, February 10, 2003.
    Senator Ernest F. Hollings, "Bush's Failed Mideast Policy Is Creating More Terrorism," Charleston Post and Courier (online), May 6, 2004; and "Sen. Hollings Floor Statement Setting the Record Straight on His Mideast Newspaper Column," May 20, 2004, originally posted on the former senator's website (now defunct) but still available at www.shalomctr.org/node/620. "ADL Urges Senator Hollings to Disavow Statements on Jews and the Iraq War," Anti- Defamation League press release, May 14, 2004.
    Matthew E. Berger, "Not So Gentle Rhetoric from the Gentleman from South Carolina,"

    JTA.org, May 23, 2004; "Sen. Hollings Floor Statement"; and "Senator Lautenberg's Floor Statement in Support of Senator Hollings," June 3, 2004, http://lautenberg.senate.gov/news room/video.cfm.
    Aluf Benn, "Scapegoat for Israel," Haaretz, May 13, 2004; Matthew Berger, "Will Some Jews' Backing for War in Iraq Have Repercussions for All1?"JTA.org, June 10, 2004; Patrick J. Buchanan, "Whose War?"American Conservative, March 24, 2003; Arnaud de Borchgrave, "A Bush-Sharon Doctrine?" Washington Times, February 14, 2003; Ami Eden, "Israel's Role: The 'Elephant'They're Talking About," Forward, February 28, 2003; "The Ground Shifts," Forward, May 28, 2004; Nathan Guttman, "Prominent U.S. Jews, Israel Blamed for Start of Iraq War," Haaretz, May 31, 2004; Spencer S. Hsu, "Moran Said Jews Are Pushing War," Washington Post, March 11, 2003; Lawrence F. Kaplan, "Toxic Talk on War," Washington

    Post, February 18, 2003; E. J. Kessler, "Gary Hart Says 'Dual Loyalty' Barb Was Not Aimed at Jews," Forward, February 21, 2003; Ori Nir and Ami Eden, "Ex-Mideast Envoy Zinni Charges Neocons Pushed Iraq War to Benefit Israel," Forward, May 28, 2004; and Robert Novak, "Sharon's War?" CNN.com, December 26, 2002.

    Quoted in Akiva Eldar, "Sharp Pen, Cruel Tongue," Haaretz, April 13, 2007.

    Michael Kinsley, "What Bush Isn't Saying About Iraq," Slate.com, October 24, 2002. Also

    see Michael Kinsley, "J'Accuse, Sort Of," Slate.com, March 12, 2003.

    Nathan Guttman, "Some Blame Israel for U.S. War in Iraq," Haaretz, March 5, 2003.

    Bill Keller, "Is It Good for the Jews?" New York Times, March 8, 2003.

    Ori Nir, "FBI Probe: More Questions Than Answers," Forward, May 13, 2005.

    Shai Feldman, "The Bombing of Osiraq—Revisited," International Security 7, no. 2 (Au­

    tumn 1982); and Dan Reiter, "Preventive Attacks Against Nuclear Programs and the 'Suc­

    cess' at Osiraq," Nonproliferation Review 12, no. 2 (July 2005).

    Joel Brinkley, "Confrontation in the Gulf: Israelis Worried by U.S. Restraint," New York

    Times, August 30, 1990;Joel Brinkley, "Top Israelis Warn of Deep Worry over Diplomatic Accord in Gulf," New York Times, December 4, 1990; Hugh Carnegy, "Pullout Not Enough, Says Israel," Financial Times, January 10, 1991; Sabra Chartrand, "Israel Warns Against a Gulf Retreat," New York Times, December 6, 1990; Jackson Diehl, "Israelis Fear Iraqi Threat Will Endure," Washington Post, August 29, 1990; Rowland Evans and Robert Novak, "Israel's Call for Action," Washington Post, August 24, 1990; Michael Massing, "The Way to War," New York Review of Books, March 28, 1991; Martin Merzer, "Israel Hopes Diplomacy Won't Let Iraqi Stay in Power," Miami Herald, August 29, 1990; and "Sharon to Americans: Blast Iraqis Immediately," Jerusalem Post, August 12, 1990.

    Aluf Benn, "Sharon Shows Powell His Practical Side," Haaretz, February 26, 2001.

    Seymour Hersh, "The Iran Game," New Yorker, December 3, 2001; Peter Hirschberg, "Background: Peres Raises Iranian Threat," Haaretz, February 5, 2002; David Hirst, "Israel

    Thrusts Iran in Line of US Fire," Guardian, February 2, 2002; "Israel Once Again Sees Iran as a Cause for Concern," Haaretz, May 7, 2001; and Alan Sipress, "Israel Emphasizes Iran­ ian Threat," Washington Post, February 7, 2002.

    Robert Novak, "Netanyahu's Nuke Warning," Chicago Sun-Times, April 14, 2002; Robert Novak, "War on Iraq Won't Be 'Cakewalk,'" Chicago Sun-Times, April 25, 2002; and William Raspberry, "To Solve the Crisis," Washington Post, April 15, 2002.

    Elizabeth Sullivan, "Sharon Aide Expects United States to Attack Iraq; He Says Saddam Must Be Stopped from Making Nuclear Arms," Cleveland Plain Dealer (online), May 3, 2002.

    Quoted in Joyce Howard Price, "Peres Encourages U.S. Action on Iraq," Washington Times,

    May 12, 2002.

    Ehud Barak, "No Quick Fix," Washington Post, June 8, 2002.

    Quoted in Gideon Alon, "Sharon to Panel: Iraq Is Our Biggest Danger," Haaretz, August 13,

    2002. Also see Nina Gilbert, "Iraq Poses Greatest Threat,"Jerusalem Post, August 13, 2002.

    "Israel to US: Don't Delay Iraq Attack," CBSNews.com, August 16, 2002. The Sharon and Peres quotations are from Aluf Benn, "PM Urging U.S. Not to Delay Strike Against Iraq," Haaretz, August 16, 2002. The Gissen quotation is from Jason Keyser, "Israel Urges U.S. to

    Attack," Washington Post, August 16, 2002. The Shiry quotation is from Ben Lynfield, "Is­ rael Sees Opportunity in Possible US Strike on Iraq," Christian Science Monitor, August 30, 2002. Also see Anton La Guardia, "Sharon Urges America to Bring Down Saddam," Daily Telegraph (London), August 17, 2002; Reuven Pedhatzur, "Israel's Interest in the War on Saddam," Haaretz, August 4, 2002; Jonathan Steele, "Israel Puts Pressure on US to Strike Iraq," Guardian, August 17, 2002; Walter Rodgers, "Rice and Peres Warn of Iraqi Threat," CNN.com, August 16, 2002; Tony Snow et al., interview with Ra'anan Gissen, "Fox Special Report with Brit Hume," August 16, 2002; and Ze'ev Schiff, "Into the Rough," Haaretz, Au­ gust 16, 2002.

    Benn, "PM Urging U.S." For additional evidence that "Israel and its supporters" were deeply concerned in 2002 "that critics would claim that the United States was going to war on


    Israel's behalf—or even, as some have suggested, at Israel's behest," see Marc Perelman, "Iraqi Move Puts Israel in Lonely U.S. Corner," Forward, September 20, 2002.
    On the lobby's concerns in the run-up to the 1991 Gulf War, see John B. Judis, "Jews and the Gulf: Fallout from the Six-Week War," Tikkun, May/June 1991; Allison Kaplan, "Sad­ dam Splits Jewish Lobby,"Jerusalem Post,January 14, 1991;and David Rogers,"Pro-Israel Lobbyists Quietly Backed Resolution Allowing Bush to Commit U.S. Troops to Combat," Wall Street Journal, January 28, 1991. On Israel's concerns at the same time, see Brinkley, "Top Israelis Warn of Deep Worry"; Carnegy, "Pullout Not Enough"; Chartrand,"Israel Warns"; Diehl, "Israelis Fear Iraqi Threat"; and Merzer, "Israel Hopes." The Buchanan quo­ tation is from Chris Reidy, "The War Between the Columnists Gets Nasty," Boston Globe, September 22, 1990.

    Benn, "PM Aide"; and Keyser, "Israel Urges U.S. to Attack."
    Quoted in Rodgers, "Rice and Peres Warn."
    Benn, "PM Aide."
    Alon, "Sharon to Panel." At a White House press conference with President Bush on Octo­ ber 16, 2002, Sharon said, "I would like to thank you, Mr. President, for the friendship and cooperation. And as far as I remember, as we look back towards many years now, I think that we never had such relations with any President of the United States as we have with you, and we never had such cooperation in everything as we have with the current administra­ tion." "President Bush Welcomes Prime Minister Sharon to White House; Question and Answer Session with the Press," transcript of press conference, U.S. Department of State, October 16, 2002. Also see Robert G. Kaiser, "Bush and Sharon Nearly Identical on Mideast Policy," Washington Post, February 9, 2003.

    Shlomo Brom, "An Intelligence Failure," Strategic Assessment (Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies, Tel Aviv University) 6, no. 3 (November 2003): 9. Also see "Intelligence Assess­ ment: Selections from the Media, 1998-2003," ibid., 17-19; Gideon Alon, "Report Slams Assessment of Dangers Posed by Libya, Iraq," Haaretz, March 28, 2004; Dan Baron, "Israeli Report Blasts Intelligence for Exaggerating the Iraqi Threat," JTA.org, March 29, 2004; Molly Moore, "Israel Shares Blame on Iraq Intelligence, Report Says," Washington Post, De­ cember 5, 2003; Greg Myre, "Israeli Report Faults Intelligence on Iraq," New York Times, March 28, 2004; Ori Nir, "Senate Report on Iraq Intel Points to Role of Jerusalem," For­ ward, July 16, 2004; and James Risen, State of War: The Secret History of the CIA and the Bush Administration (NewYork: Simon & Schuster, 2006), 72-73.

    On the general phenomenon of buck-passing, see John J. Mearsheimer, The Tragedy of Great Power Politics (NewYork: Norton, 2001), 157-62.
    Quoted in Perelman, "Iraqi Move."
    Herb Keinon, "Sharon to Putin: Too Late for Iraq Arms Inspection, "Jerusalem Post, October 1, 2002.

    "Peres Questions France Permanent Status on Security Council," Haaretz, February 20, 2003. Perelman, "Iraqi Move."
    Shlomo Avineri, "A Haunting Echo," Los Angeles Times, November 24, 2002. Also see Ben­ jamin Netanyahu, "The Case for Toppling Saddam," Wall Street Journal, September 20, 2002; and Nathan Guttman, "Shimon Peres Warns Against Repeat of 1930s Appeasement," Haaretz, September 15, 2002.

    For some representative editorials, see "Next Stop, Baghdad," Jerusalem Post editorial, No­ vember 15, 2 0 0 1 ; "Don't Wait for Saddam," Jerusalem Post editorial, August 18, 2002; "Mak­ ing the Case for War," Jerusalem Post editorial, September 9, 2002. For some representative op-eds, see Ron Dermer, "The March to Baghdad," Jerusalem Post, December 21, 2001; Efraim Inbar, "Ousting Saddam, Instilling Stability," Jerusalem Post, October 8, 2002; and Gerald M. Steinberg, "Imagining the Liberation of Iraq,"Jerusalem Post, November 18, 2001. "Don't Wait for Saddam."

    Ehud Barak, "Taking Apart Iraq's Nuclear Threat," New York Times, September 4, 2002.

    Netanyahu, "The Case for Toppling Saddam." Also see Benjamin Netanyahu, "U.S. Must Beat Saddam to the Punch," Chicago Sun-Times, September 17, 2002.
    See, for example, "Benjamin Netanyahu Testifies About Iraq to Congress," CNN Live Event, CNN.com, September 12, 2002; Jim Lobe, "Hawks Justify Iraq Strike as War for Democracy," Inter Press Service, September 27, 2002; and Janine Zacharia, "Netanyahu: US Must Guarantee Israel's Safety from Iraqi Attack," Jerusalem Post, September 13, 2002. Aluf Benn, "Background: Enthusiastic IDF Awaits War in Iraq," Haaretz, February 17, 2003; James Bennet, "Israel Says War on Iraq Would Benefit the Region," New York Times, February 27, 2003; and Chemi Shalev, "Jerusalem Frets as U.S. Battles Iraq War Delays," Forward, March 7, 2003.

    Quoted in James Bennet, "Clinton Redux," The [email protected] weblog, July 8, 2006. Asher Arian, "Israeli Public Opinion on National Security 2002," Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies, Tel Aviv University, Memorandum no. 61, July 2002, 10, 34.
    Ephraim Yaar and Tamar Hermann, "Peace Index: Most Israelis Support the Attack on Iraq," Haaretz, March 6, 2003. Regarding Kuwait, a public opinion poll released in March 2003 found that 89.6 percent of Kuwaitis favored the impending war against Iraq. James Morri­ son, "Kuwaitis Support War," Washington Times, March 18, 2003. In a poll taken in Israel in early May 2007, 59 percent of the respondents said that the U.S. decision to invade Iraq was correct. "Poll Shows That Israel Is a Staunch American Ally," Anti-Defamation League press release, May 18, 2007. By that time, most Americans had concluded that the war was a tragic mistake.
    "America's Image Further Erodes, Europeans Want Weaker Ties: a Nine-Country Survey," Pew Research Center for the People and the Press, Washington, DC, March 18, 2003. Also see Alan Travis and Ian Black, "Blair's Popularity Plummets," Guardian, February 18, 2003. Gideon Levy, "A Deafening Silence," Haaretz, October 6, 2002.
    See Dan Izenberg, "Foreign Ministry Warns Israeli War Talk Fuels US Anti-Semitism," Je­ rusalem Post, March 10, 2003, which makes clear that "the Foreign Ministry has received reports from the US" telling Israelis to be more circumspect because the U.S. media is portraying Israel as "trying to goad the administration into war."
    Quoted in Dana Milbank, "Group Urges Pro-Israel Leaders Silence on Iraq," Washington Post,November 27, 2002.
    David Horovitz, "Sharon Warns Colleagues Not to Discuss Iraq Conflict," Irish Times, March 12, 2003. Also see James Bennet, "Threats and Responses: Israel's Role; Not Urging War, Sharon Says," New York Times, March 11, 2003; and Aluf Benn, "Sharon Says U.S. Should Also Disarm Iran, Libya and Syria," Haaretz, February 18, 2003.

    The influence of the neoconservatives and their allies was widely reflected before the war and is clearly reflected in the following articles, all written before or just after the war be­ gan: Joel Beinin, "Pro-Israel Hawks and the Second Gulf War," Middle East Report Online, April 6, 2003; Elisabeth Bumiller and Eric Schmitt, "On the Job and at Home, Influential Hawks' 30-Year Friendship Evolves," New York Times, September 11, 2002; Kathleen and Bill Christison, "A Rose by Another Name: The Bush Administration's Dual Loyalties," CounterPunch.org, December 13, 2002; Robert Dreyfuss, "The Pentagon Muzzles the CIA," American Prospect, December 16, 2002; Michael Elliott and James Carney, "First Stop, Iraq," Time, March 31, 2003; Seymour Hersh, "The Iraq Hawks," New Yorker, December 24-31, 2001; Michael Hirsh, "Hawks, Doves and Dubya," Newsweek, September 2, 2002; Glenn Kessler, "U.S. Decision on Iraq Has Puzzling Past," Washington Post, January 12, 2003; Joshua M. Marshall, "Bomb Saddam?" Washington Monthly, June 2002; Dana Milbank, "White House Push for Iraqi Strike Is on Hold," Washington Post, August 18, 2002; Susan Page, "Showdown with Saddam: The Decision to Act," USA Today, September 11, 2002; Sam Tanenhaus, "Bush's Brain Trust," Vanity Fair (online), July 2003; Patrick E. Tyler and Elaine Sciolino, "Bush Advisers Split on Scope of Retaliation," New York Times, September 20, 2001 ; and Jason A. Vest, "The Men from JINSA and CSP," Nation, September 2/9, 2002. Janine Zacharia, "All the President's Middle East Men,"Jerusalem Post, January 19,2001.

    55. "Rally Unites Anguished Factions Under Flag of 'Stand with Israel,'" Forward, April 19, 2002; and "Forward 50," Forward, November 15, 2002.

    56. John McCaslin, "Israeli-Trained Cops," Washington Times, November 5, 2002; Bret Stephens, "Man of the Year,"Jerusalem Post (Rosh Hashana Supplement), September 26, 2003; and Janine Zacharia, "Invasive Treatment," ibid. Other useful pieces on Wolfowitz in­ clude Peter J. Boyer, "The Believer," New Yorker, November 1, 2004; Michael Dobbs, "For Wolfowitz, a Vision May Be Realized," Washington Post, April 7, 2003; James Fallows, "The Unilateralist," Atlantic, March 2002; Bill Keller, "The Sunshine Warrior," New York Times Magazine, September 22, 2002; and "Paul Wolfowitz, Velociraptor," Economist, February 7, 2002.

    See, for example, Douglas J. Feith, "The Inner Logic of Israel's Negotiations: Withdrawal Process, Not Peace Process," Middle East Quarterly 3, no. 1 (March 1996); and Douglas Feith, "A Strategy for Israel," Commentary, September 1997. For useful discussions of Feith s views, see Jeffrey Goldberg, "A Little Learning: What Douglas Feith Knew and When He Knew It," New Yorker, May 9, 2005; Jim Lobe, "Losing Feith, or Is the Bush Team Shedding Its Sharper Edges?" Daily Star (online), January 31, 2005; James J. Zogby, "A Dangerous Ap­ pointment: Profile of Douglas Feith, Undersecretary of Defense Under Bush," Middle East Information Center, April 18, 2001; and "Israeli Settlements: Legitimate, Democratically Mandated, Vital to Israel's Security and, Therefore, in U.S. Interest," Center for Security Pol­ icy, Transition Brief no. 96-T 130, December 17, 1996. Note that the title of the latter piece, which was published by an organization in the lobby, says that what is in Israel's interest is in America's national interest. In "Losing Feith," Lobe writes, "In 2003, when Feith, who was standing in for Rumsfeld at an interagency 'Principals' Meeting' on the Middle East, con­ cluded his remarks on behalf of the Pentagon, according to the Washington insider newslet­ ter, The Nelson Report, [National Security Adviser Condoleezza] Rice said, 'Thanks Doug, but when we want the Israeli position we'll invite the ambassador.'"

    "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm" was prepared for the Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies in Jerusalem and published in June 1996. A copy can be found at www.iasps.org/stratl.htm.

    Akiva Eldar, "Perles of Wisdom for the Feithful," Haaretz, October 1, 2002.

    Packer, Assassins 'Gate, 32.

    "Israel's UN Ambassador Slams Qatar, Praises U.S. Envoy Bolton," Haaretz, May 23, 2006.

    Also see "Bolton Is Israel's Secret Weapon, Says Gillerman," BigNewsNetwork.com, Novem­

    ber 18, 2006; and Ori Nir, "Senate Probes Bolton's Pro-Israel Efforts," Forward, May 6, 2005.

    Marc Perelman, "Siding with White House, Groups Back Bolton," Forward, November 17,

    2006; and "Dear John," Forward editorial, December 8, 2006.

    Ori Nir, "Libby Played Leading Role on Foreign Policy Decisions," Forward, November 4,

    2005.

    "He Tarries: Jewish Messianism and the Oslo Peace," Rennert Lecture for 2002. Krautham­

    mer fiercely defends Israel at every turn in his columns.

    65. Asia Aydintasbas, "The Midnight Ride of James Woolsey," Salon.com, December 20, 2001;

    Anne E. Kornblut and Bryan Bender, "Cheney Link of Iraq, 9/11 Dismissed," Boston Globe, September 16, 2003; David E. Sanger and Robin Toner, "Bush and Cheney Talk Strongly of Qaeda Links with Hussein," New York Times, June 18, 2004; and R. James Woolsey, "The Iraq Connection," Wall Street Journal, October 18,2001.

    Goldberg added that "among Jewish lobbyists in the Beltway, support for the impending war is almost taken for granted—several are puzzled by the very suggestion that any kind of strenuous opposition to an Iraq invasion might emerge." Michelle Goldberg, "Why Ameri­ can Jewish Groups Support War with Iraq," Salon.com, September 14, 2002.

    "An Unseemly Silence," Forward editorial, May 7, 2004.

    Nacha Cattan, "Resolutions on Invasion Divide Jewish Leadership," Forward, October 11,

    2002; Laurie Goodstein, "Threats and Responses: American Jews; Divide Among Jews Leads to Silence on Iraq War," New York Times, March 15, 2003; and Milbank, "Group Urges."

    Matthew E. Berger, "Jewish Groups Back U.S. Stand on Iraq," Jewish Journal (online), Oc­ tober 18, 2002; and Jewish Council for Public Affairs, "Statement on Iraq," adopted by the JCPA Board of Directors, October 2002.
    Mortimer B. Zuckerman, "No Time for Equivocation," U.S. News & World Report, August 2 6 / September 2, 2002. Also see Mortimer B. Zuckerman, "No More Cat and Mouse," U.S. News &• World Report, October 28, 2002; Mortimer B. Zuckerman, "Clear and Compelling Proof," U.S. News & World Report, February 10, 2003; and Mortimer B. Zuckerman, "The High Price of Waiting," U.S. News & World Report, March 10, 2003.

    Both quotes are from Goldberg, "Why American Jewish Groups."
    Gary Rosenblatt, "The Case for War Against Saddam," Jewish Week, December 13, 2002. Also see Gary Rosenblatt, "Hussein Asylum," Jewish Week, August 23, 2002.
    Ron Kampeas, "Cheney: Iran, Iraq a Package Deal," JTA.org, March 13, 2007.
    Nathan Guttman, "Background: AIPAC and the Iraqi Opposition," Haaretz, April 7, 2003. Also see Dana Milbank, "For Israel Lobby Group, War Is Topic A, Quietly," Washington Post, April 1, 2003.
    David Twersky, "A Bittersweet Affair for AIPAC," New York Sun, January 23, 2003. On the ADL, see Cattan, "Resolutions on Invasion"; Nacha Cattan, "Jewish Groups Pressed to Line Up on Iraq," Forward, August 23, 2002; and Nathan Guttman, "Groups Mum on Iraq, Despite Antiwar Tide," Forward, March 2, 2007.
    Jeffrey Goldberg, "Real Insiders: A Pro-Israel Lobby and an FBI Sting," New Yorker, July 4, 2005. Near East Report (NER), AIPAC's biweekly publication dealing with Middle East is­ sues, is filled with articles dealing with Iraq in the months before the war began. Although none explicitly calls for invading Iraq, they all portray Saddam as an especially dangerous threat, leaving the reader with little doubt that both Israel and the United States will be in serious trouble if he is not toppled from power. See, for example, "Saddam's Diversion," NER, October 7, 2002; interview with Ze'ev Schiff, NER, October 21, 2002; interview with Amatzia Baram, NER, February 25, 2002; interview with Amatzia Baram, NER, October 7, 2002; interview with Kenneth M. Pollack, NER, September 23, 2002; "Arming Iraq," NER, July 1, 2002; and "Backing Saddam," NER, February 3, 2003.
    John Bresnahan, "GOP Turns to Israeli Lobby to Boost Iraq Support," Roll Call (online), October 6, 2003.
    Matthew E. Berger, "Bush Makes Iraq Case in AIPAC Appearance," Deep South Jewish Voice (online), May 11, 2004.
    David Horovitz, "Editor's Notes: Wading into the Great Debate," Jerusalem Post, March 15, 2007. According to Ron Kampeas, Cheney's "message was not received enthusiastically. Only about one-third to one-half of the audience . . . applauded politely." See "Cheney: Iran, Iraq a Package Deal." Similarly, Nathan Guttman wrote that Cheney's speech "re­ ceived a lukewarm welcome." See "Cheney Links Action on Iran to Winning Iraq," Forward, March 16, 2007. However, writing in Salon, Gregory Levey noted that "Cheney got a warm reception and forceful applause." See "Inside America's Powerful Israel Lobby," Salon.com, March 16, 2007.
    On the reception Boehner and Pelosi received, see Guttman, "Cheney Links Action"; Levey, "Inside"; and Ian Swanson, "Pelosi Hears Boos at AIPAC," The Hill (online), March 13, 2007. Guttman, "Groups Mum on Iraq."
    Ibid.; and Jeffrey M. Jones, "Among Religious Groups, Jewish Americans Most Strongly Op­ pose War," Gallup News Service, February 23, 2007.
    Shortly before the United States invaded Iraq, Congressman James P. Moran created a stir when he said, "If it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for this war with Iraq, we would not be doing this." Quoted in Hsu, "Moran Said." However, Moran mis­ spoke, because there was not widespread support for the war in the Jewish community. He should have said, "If it were not for the strong support of the neoconservatives and the lead­ ership of the Israel lobby for this war with Iraq, we would not be doing this."

    Samuel G. Freedman, "Don't Blame Jews for This War," USA Today, April 2, 2003. Also see

    James D. Besser, "Jews Souring on Iraq War," Jewish Week, September 24, 2004; Goodstein, "Threats and Responses"; and Ori Nir, "Poll Finds Jewish Political Gap," Forward, February 4, 2005. The same situation obtained before the 1991 Gulf War. By the time Congress voted to endorse the war on January 12, 1991, "the only significant Washington Jewish organization not on record in favor of the administration's position was American Friends of Peace Now, which favored the continuation of sanctions." Judis, "Jews and the Gulf," 13. Despite the lobby's efforts to make the 1991 war happen, however, a large portion of the American Jew­ ish community opposed the war, as was the case in 2003. For example, Jewish members of the House of Representatives voted 1 7 - 1 6 against the resolution authorizing war, while Jew­ ish senators voted 5-3 against it. Ibid., 14. This outcome reflects the fact that in contrast to what happened in 2002—03, there was a serious debate in 1990-91 about whether to go to war against Iraq, as well as the fact that the lobby sometimes takes positions that are at odds with a substantial portion of the American Jewish community.

    The January 26, 1998, letter can be found on the website of the Project for the New Amer­ ican Century, www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm; the February 19, 1998, letter can be found on the Iraq Watch website, www.iraqwatch.org/perspectives/rumsfeld- openletter.htm. For background on the Committee for Peace and Security in the Gulf, see Judis, "Jews and the Gulf," 12. Also see the May 29, 1998, letter to Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich and Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott written under the auspices of PNAC, www.newamericancentury.org/iraqletterl998.htm. The neoconservatives, it should be emphasized, advocated invading Iraq to topple Saddam. See "The End of Containment," Weekly Standard, December 1, 1997; Zalmay M. Khalilzad and Paul Wolfowitz, "Overthrow Him," ibid.; Frederick W. Kagan, "Not by Air Alone," ibid.; and Robert Kagan, "A Way to Oust Saddam," Weekly Standard, September 28, 1998.

    A copy of the Iraq Liberation Act can be found at www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/ Legislation/ILA.htm.
    John Dizard, "How Ahmed Chalabi Conned the Neocons," Salon.com, May 4, 2004; "Iraqi Myths," Jerusalem Post editorial, October 7, 1998; Seth Gitell, "Neocons Meet Israeli to Gain U.S. Backing," Forward, July 31, 1998; Kagan, "Way to Oust Saddam"; Martin Kettle, "Pentagon Balks at 'Idiotic' Law Urging Bay of Pigs-type Invasion of Iraq," Guardian, Octo­ ber 21,1998;andVernonLoeb,"CongressStokesVisionsofWar toOustSaddam;White House Fears Fiasco in Aid to Rebels," Washington Post, October 20, 1998. On JINSA, see "Concrete Responses to Saddam," jinsa.org, Report no. 79, August 10, 1998; "To Overthrow Saddam," jinsa.org, Report no. 82, October 2, 1998; "Spring 1998 Board Resolution—Iraq,"

    jinsa.org, March 22, 1998; and "Resolution in Support of the Iraqi Opposition," jinsa.org, October 19, 1998.
    See Clinton's comments after he signed the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. Statement by the President, White House Press Office, October 31, 1998. Also see Kettle, "Pentagon Balks"; and Loeb, "Congress Stokes."

    Vernon Loeb, "Saddam's Iraqi Foes Heartened by Clinton," Washington Post, November 16, 1998; Nicholas Lemann, "The Iraq Factor: Will the New Bush Team's Old Memories Shape Its Foreign Policies?" New Yorker, January 22, 2001; and Robert Litwak, Rogue States and U.S. Foreign Policy (Washington, DC: Woodrow Wilson Center Press, 2000), chap. 4. Packer, Assassins' Gate, 41.

    Jane Perlez, "Capitol Hawks Seek Tougher Line on Iraq," New York Times, March 7, 2001; and "Have Hawks Become Doves?" Washington Times editorial, March 8, 2001. Also see Stefan Halper and Jonathan Clarke, America Alone: The Neo-Conservatives and the Global Order (NewYork: Cambridge University Press, 2004), 129-31.

    Richard A. Clarke, Against All Enemies: Inside America's War on Terror (New York: Free Press, 2004); and Ron Suskind, The Price of Loyalty: George W. Bush, the White House, and the Education of Paul O'Neill (NewYork: Simon & Schuster, 2004).
    Bob Woodward, Plan of Attack (NewYork: Simon & Schuster, 2004), 12. Also see Lemann,

    "Iraq Factor"; and Eric Schmitt and Steven Lee Meyers, "Bush Administration Warns Iraq on Weapons Programs," New York Times, January 2 3 , 2 0 0 1 .

    She also noted that if Iraq did get W M D , the appropriate U.S. response would be a "clear and classical statement of deterrence—if they do acquire W M D , their weapons will be un­ usable because any attempt to use them will bring national obliteration." Condoleezza Rice, "Promoting the National Interest," Foreign Affairs 79, no. 1 (January/February 2000): 60-62. Timothy Noah, "Dick Cheney, Dove," Slate.com, October 16, 2002; Adam Meyerson, "Calm After Desert Storm," interview with Dick Cheney, Policy Reiriew 65 (Summer 1993). Quoted in Kessler, "U.S. Decision on Iraq Has Puzzling Past." Elliott and Carney ("First Stop, Iraq") report that neoconservatives like William Kristol were upset when Cheney was chosen as Bush's running mate, because of Cheney's position on ending the first Gulf War. But after 9 / 1 1 , says Kristol, "neoconservatives happily consider him a fellow-traveler.'" Elliott and Carney, "First Stop, Iraq"; Glenn Kessler and Peter Slavin, "Cheney Is Fulcrum of Foreign Policy," Washington Post, October 13, 2002; Kessler, "U.S. Decision on Iraq Has Puzzling Past"; and "Vice President Dick Cheney Talks About Bush's Energy Plan," inter­ view with Tim Russert on NBC's Meet the Press, May 20, 2001. Although Cheney's views on conquering Iraq fundamentally changed after 9 / 1 1 , this apparently did not happen overnight. See "The Vice President Appears on Meet the Press with Tim Russert," Camp David, Maryland, Office of the White House Press Secretary, September 16, 2001. Cheney's response to specific questions about Iraq does not indicate that he had changed his thinking about the need to topple Saddam five days after the Twin Towers fell.

    Both Kagan quotations are from Packer, Assassins' Gate, 38. Also see similar comments by Packer himself in ibid., 32.
    Woodward, Plan of Attack, 25-26.
    Page, "Showdown with Saddam."

    Elliott and Carney, "First Stop, Iraq." Woodward describes Wolfowitz as "like a drum that would not stop." Plan of Attack, 22.
    Woodward, Plan of Attack, 1-44.
    Regarding the neoconservatives' influence on Cheney, see Elliott and Carney, "First Stop, Iraq"; Page, "Showdown with Saddam"; Michael Hirsh, "Bernard Lewis Revisited," Wash­ ington Monthly, November 2004; Frederick Kempe, "Lewis's 'Liberation' Doctrine for Mid­ east Faces New Tests," Wall Street Journal, December 13, 2005; and Caria Anne Robbins and Jeanne Cummings, "How Bush Decided That Hussein Must Be Ousted from Atop Iraq," Wall Street Journal, June 14, 2002. On Ajami in particular, see Adam Shatz, "The Na­ tive Informant," Nation, April 28, 2003.

    Jacob Weisberg, "Are Neo-cons History?" Financial Times, March 14, 2007. This article makes clear that Cheney and Lewis have a close relationship.
    Woodward succinctly describes Libby's influence in Plan of Attack (48—49): "Libby had three formal titles. He was chief of staff to Vice President Cheney; he was also national se­ curity adviser to the vice president; and he was finally an assistant to President Bush. It was a trifecta of positions probably never held before by a single person. Scooter was a power center unto himself . . . Libby was one of only two people who were not principals to attend the National Security Council meetings with the president and the separate principals meetings chaired by Rice."Also see ibid., 50-51, 288-92, 300-301, 409-10; Bumiller and Schmitt, "On the Job and at Home"; Karen Kwiatkowski, "The New Pentagon Papers," Salon.com, March 10, 2004; and Tyler and Sciolino, "Bush Advisers Split."

    Tyler and Sciolino, "Bush Advisers Split." Also see Bumiller and Schmitt, "On the Job and at Home"; and William Safire, "Phony War II," New York Times, November 28, 2002.
    On Cheney's significant influence in the Bush administration, see Jeanne Cummings and Greg Hitt, "In Iraq Drama, Cheney Emerges as President's War Counselor," Wall Street Journal, March 17, 2003; Mark Hosenball, Michael Isikoff, and Evan Thomas, "Cheney's Long Path to War," Newsweek, November 17, 2003; Kessler and Slavin, "Cheney Is Ful-

    crum"; Barbara Slavin and Susan Page, "Cheney Rewrites Roles in Foreign Policy," USA To­ day, July 29, 2002; and Woodward, Plan of Attack, 27-30.
    Kessler, "U.S. Decision on Iraq Has Puzzling Past"; and Woodward, Plan of Attack, 410. Also see ibid., 164-65,409.

    Quoted in Eric Schmitt, "Pentagon Contradicts General on Iraq Occupation Force's Size," New York Times, February 28, 2003.
    "This Goes Beyond Bin Laden," jinsa.org, September 13, 2 0 0 1 . Also see Vest, "The Men from JINSA and CSP."

    This letter was published in the Weekly Standard, October 1, 2001. Among the signatories were William Bennett, Eliot Cohen, Aaron Friedberg, Donald Kagan, Robert Kagan, Jeane Kirkpatrick, William Kristol, Charles Krauthammer, Richard Perle, Norman Podhoretz, Stephen Solarz, and Leon Wieseltier.

    Charles Krauthammer, "The War: A Road Map," Washington Post, September 28, 2001 ; and Robert Kagan and William Kristol, "The Right War," Weekly Standard, October 1, 2001. Also see "War Aims," Wall Street Journal editorial, September 20,2001.
    Michael Barone, "War by Ultimatum," U.S. News & World Report, October 1, 2001. Also see Bill Gertz, "Iraq Suspected of Sponsoring Terrorist Attacks," Washington Times, Septem­ ber 21, 2001; "Drain the Ponds of Terror," Jerusalem Post editorial, September 25, 2001; William Safire, "The Ultimate Enemy," New York Times, September 24, 2001 ; and Mortimer B. Zuckerman, "A Question of Priorities," U.S. News &• World Report, October 8, 2001.

    The April 3, 2002, letter can be found at www.newamericancentury.org/Bushletter- 040302.htm.
    Daniel Byman, Kenneth M. Pollack, and Gideon Rose, "The Rollback Fantasy," Foreign Af­

    fairs 78, no. 1 (January/February 1999).
    Kenneth M. Pollack, The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq (New York: Random House, 2002); Kenneth M. Pollack, "Why Iraq Can't Be Deterred," New York Times, Sep­ tember 26, 2002; Kenneth M. Pollack, "A Last Chance to Stop Iraq," New York Times, Feb­ ruary 21, 2003; Martin S. Indyk and Kenneth M. Pollack, "How Bush Can Avoid the Inspections Trap," New York Times, January 27, 2003; and Martin S. Indyk and Kenneth M. Pollack, "Lock and Load," Los Angeles Times, December 19, 2002.
    William Kristol, "The Axis of Appeasement," Weekly Standard, August 26/September 2, 2002; Robert Bartley, "Thinking Things Over: What We Learned," Wall Street Journal, September 9, 2002; Michael Ledeen, "Scowcroft Strikes Out," National Review Online, August 6, 2002; George Melloan, "Who Really Doubts That Saddam's Got to Go," Wall Street Journal, Sep­ tember 10, 2002; John O'Sullivan, "Chamberlain Deserves an Apology: Scowcroft, Hagel, and Raines Are No Chamberlains," National Review Online, September 3, 2002; "This Is Opposition? There Is No Revolt in the GOP Against Bush's Iraq Policy," Wall Street Journal editorial, August 19, 2002; and "Who Is Brent Scowcroft?" New York Sun editorial, August 19, 2002. None of the targets of the neoconservatives' ire were advocating appeasement of Iraq but instead favored containment over war.
    William Safire, "Our 'Relentless' Liberation," New York Times, October 8, 2001. Also see William Safire, "Saddam and Terror," New York Times, August 22, 2002; and William Safire, "BigMo,"New YorkTimes, November 19,2001.
    Robert Kagan, "On to Phase II," Washington Post, November 27, 2001; Robert Kagan and William Kristol, "What to Do About Iraq," Weekly Standard, January 21, 2002; and Safire, "Saddam and Terror."

    Robert Kagan and William Kristol, "The U.N. Trap?" Weekly Standard, November 18, 2002; Charles Krauthammer, "A Costly Charade at the U.N.," Washington Post, February 28, 2003; George F. Will, "Stuck to the U.N. Tar Baby," Washington Post, September 19, 2002; and William Safire, "The French Connection," New York Times, March 14, 2003. Krauthammer, "Our First Move." Also see Reuel Marc Gerecht, "A Necessary War," Weekly Standard, October 21, 2002; and Charles Krauthammer, "Where Power Talks," Washington Post, January 4, 2002.



    An excellent account of the administration's campaign to sell the war is Frank Rich, The Greatest Story Ever Sold: The Decline and Fall of Truth from 9/11 to Katrina (NewYork: Pen­ guin Press, 2006).

    James Bamford, A Pretext for War: 9/11, Iraq, and the Abuse of America's Intelligence Agen­ cies (NewYork: Doubleday, 2004), chaps. 13-14; Karen DeYoung, Soldier: The Life of Colin Powell (NewYork: Knopf, 2006), 440-46; and Woodward, Plan of Attack, 288-92, 297-301. Also see ibid., 72, 163.

    Woodward, Plan of Attack, 290.

    "Powell Regrets UN Speech on Iraq WMDs," ABC News Online, September 9, 2005.

    Bamford, Pretext for War, 287-91, 307-31 ;Julian Borger, "The Spies Who Pushed for War,"

    Guardian, July 17, 2003; David S. Cloud, "Prewar Intelligence Inquiry Zeroes in on Penta­ gon Office," Wall Street Journal, March 11, 2004; Seymour M. Hersh, "Selective Intelli­ gence," New Yorker, May 12, 2003; Kwiatkowski, "New Pentagon Papers"; W. Patrick Lang, "Drinking the Kool-Aid," Middle East Policy 11, no. 2 (Summer 2004); Jim Lobe, "Pentagon Office Home to Neo-Con Network," Inter Press Service, August 7, 2003; Greg Miller, "Spy Unit Skirted CIA on Iraq," Los Angeles Times, March 10, 2004; Paul R. Pillar, "Intelligence, Policy, and the War in Iraq," Foreign Affairs 85, no. 2 (March-April 2006); James Risen, "How Pair's Finding on Terror Led to Clash on Shaping Intelligence," New York Times, April 28, 2004; and Eric Schmitt and Thorn Shanker, "Threats and Responses: A C.I.A. Rival; Pentagon Sets Up Intelligence Unit," New York Times, October 24, 2002.

    Risen, State of War, 72-73.

    Lobe, "Pentagon Office." On Makovsky, see Jack Herman, "A Whole New Ballgame Over­

    seas," St. Louis Post-Dispatch, February 20, 1989. This article was written when Makovsky was about to leave the United States and move to Israel. "I have strong feelings about help­ ing to build a Jewish state," he told Herman. He then added, "It's like returning to your roots."

    Borger, "The Spies."

    Inspector General, Department of Defense, "Review of the Pre—Iraqi War Activities of the

    Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy," Report no. 07-INTEL-04, February 9,

    2007.

    Franklin Foer, "Founding Fakers," New Republic, August 18, 2003.

    Robert Dreyfuss, "Tinker, Banker, NeoCon, Spy," American Prospect, November 18, 2002.

    Also see "Who Will Lead a Free Iraq?"jinsa.org, May 9, 2003; and "Creating a Post-Saddam

    Iraq,"jinsa.org, Report no. 481,April 6, 2005.

    Quoted in Dreyfuss, "Tinker, Banker." Also see Matthew E. Berger, "Iraqi Exiles and Jews

    Form Unlikely Alliance," Jewish News Weekly (online), October 18, 2002; Juan Cole, "All the Vice-President's Men," Salon.com, October 28, 2005; and Michelle Goldberg, "The War over the Peace," Salon.com, April 14, 2003.

    Quoted in Robert Dreyfuss, "Chalabi and AEI: The Sequel," TomPaine.com, November 10, 2005. Also see Laurie Mylroie, "Unusually Effective," New York Sun, November 8, 2005; and Michael Rubin, "Iraq's Comeback Kid," National Review Online, December 5, 2005.

    Bernard Lewis, "Put the Iraqis in Charge," Wall Street Journal, August 29, 2003. Also see Ian Buruma, "Lost in Translation," New Yorker, June 14, 2004; and Michael Hirsh, "Bernard Lewis Revisited," Washington Monthly, November 2004.

    Dizard, "How Ahmed Chalabi Conned the Neocons." In mid-June 2003, Benjamin Ne­ tanyahu announced, "It won't be long when you will see Iraqi oil flowing to Haifa." Reuters, "Netanyahu Says Iraq-Israel Oil Line Not Pipe-Dream," Haaretz, June 20, 2003. Of course, this did not happen and it is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future. Also see Douglas Davis, "Peace with Israel Said to Top New Iraq's Agenda," Jerusalem Post, April 21, 2003.

    Matthew E. Berger, "New Chance to Build Israel-Iraq Ties," Jewish Journal (online), April 28, 2003. Also see Bamford, Pretext to War, 293; and Ed Blanche, "Securing Iraqi Oil for Israel: The Plot Thickens," Lebanonwire.com, April 25, 2003.

    Nathan Guttman, "Mutual Wariness: AIPAC and the Iraqi Opposition," Haaretz, April 27, 2003.



    Quoted in Packer, Assassins' Gate, 41.

    Friedman qualifed this remark by adding, "In the final analysis, what fomented the war is

    America's over-reaction to September 11." We agree; it was a combination of the neoconser­ vatives' active promotion of the war, the support from key groups in the lobby, and a partic­ ular set of international and domestic circumstances that led the United States into the Iraqi quagmire. See Shavit, "White Man's Burden."

    Noam Chomsky, "The Israel Lobby?" Znet (online), March 28, 2006. Also see Stephen Zunes, "The Israel Lobby: How Powerful Is It Really?" Znet (online), May 25, 2006.

    One pundit notes that the "preferred slogan" of the antiwar forces in the run-up to the Iraq

    war was "no blood for oil." John B. Judis, "Over a Barrel," New Republic, January 20, 2003, 20. Also see William R. Clark, Petrodollar Warfare: Oil, Iraq and the Future of the Dollar (Gabriola Island, Canada: New Society Publishers, 2005); Michael Elliott, "The Selling of the President's War: Bush Should Take Israel and Oil Out of the Iraq Equation," Time, No­ vember 18, 2002; Michael Meacher, "This War on Terrorism Is Bogus," Guardian, Septem­ ber 6, 2003; Kevin Phillips, "American Petrocacy," American Conservative, July 17, 2006; and Sandy Tolan, "Beyond Regime Change," Los Angeles Times, December 1, 2002.

    Judis, "Jews and the Gulf," 16-17.

    Stephen J. Hedges, "Allies Not Swayed on Iraq Strike," Chicago Tribune, August 28, 2002;

    "Saudi Arabia Says It Won't Join a War," New York Times, March 19, 2003; "Saudis Warn US over Iraq War," B B C News (online), February 17, 2003; Jon Sawyer, "Saudi Arabia Won't Back War on Iraq without U.N. Authority, Prince Warns," St. Louis Post-Dispatch (online), January 23, 2003; "Scorecard: For or Against Military Action," New York Times, August 27, 2002; and Brian Whitaker and John Hooper, "Saudis Will Not Aid US War Effort," Guardian, August 8, 2002.

    Peter Beinart, "Crude," New Republic, October 7, 2002; Michael Moran and Alex Johnson, "The Rush for Iraq's Oil," MSNBC.com, November 7, 2002; Anthony Sampson, "Oilmen Don't Want Another Suez," Observer, December 22, 2002; John W. Schoen, "Iraqi Oil, American Bonanza?" MSNBC.com, November 11, 2002; and Daniel Yergin, "A Crude View of the Crisis in Iraq," Washington Post, December 8, 2002.

    Remarks by the Vice President to the Veterans of Foreign Wars 103rd National Convention, Nashville, Tennessee (White House, Office of the Press Secretary, August 26, 2002). Also see Remarks by the Vice President to the Veterans of the Korean War, San Antonio, Texas (White House, Office of the Press Secretary, August 29, 2002).

    For a copy of the speech, see "In the President's Words: 'Free People Will Keep the Peace of the World,'" New York Times, February 27, 2003. Also see Remarks by the President to the United Nations General Assembly, New York (White House, Office of the Press Secretary, September 12, 2002); Remarks by the President to the Graduating Class, West Point (White House, Office of the Press Secretary, June 1, 2002); President's Inaugural Speech, Washington, DC (White House, Office of the Press Secretary, January 20, 2005); and Na­ tional Security Strategy of the United States (2002).

    Robert S. Greenberger and Karby Leggett, "President's Dream: Changing Not Just Regime but a Region: A Pro-U.S., Democratic Area Is a Goal That Has Israeli and Neoconserva­ tive Roots," Wall Street Journal, March 21, 2003. Also see George Packer, "Dreaming of Democracy," New York Times Magazine, March 2, 2003; Paul Sperry, "Bush the Nation- Builder: So Much for Campaign Promises," Antiwar.com, October 6, 2006; and Wayne Washington, "Once Against Nation-Building, Bush Now Involved," Boston Globe, March 2, 2004.

    Charles Krauthammer, "Peace Through Democracy," Washington Post, June 28, 2002.

    Barak, "Taking Apart."

    Quoted in Lynfield, "Israel Sees Opportunity in Possible U.S. Strike on Iraq."

    Benn, "Background."

    Bennet, "Israel Says."



    Shalev, "Jerusalem Frets."

    See, for example, Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New

    Century, Report of the Project for the New American Century (Washington, DC, Septem­

    ber 2000), 14, 17-18.

    Martin Indyk, "The Clinton Administration's Approach to the Middle East," speech to Soref

    Symposium, Washington Institute for Near East Policy, May 18, 1993. Also see Anthony

    Lake, "Confronting Backlash States," Foreign Affairs 73, no. 2 (March/April 1994).

    Kenneth M. Pollack, The Persian Puzzle: The Conflict Between Iran and America (New York:

    Random House, 2004), 261-65.

    Robert Kagan and William Kristol, eds., Present Dangers: Crisis and Opportunity in Ameri­

    can Foreign and Defense Policy (San Francisco: Encounter Books, 2000); Charles Kraut­ hammer, "Universal Dominion: Toward a Unipolar World," National Interest 18 (Winter 1989/90); Michael A. Ledeen, Freedom Betrayed: How America Led a Global Democratic Revolution, Won the Cold War, and Walked Away (Washington, DC: AEI Press, 1996); Joshua Muravchik, Exporting Democracy: Fulfilling America's Destiny (Washington, DC: AEI Press, 1991); Marina Ottaway et al., "Democratic Mirage in the Middle East," Policy Brief 20 (Washington, DC: Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, October 2002); Norman Podhoretz, "Strange Bedfellows: A Guide to the New Foreign-Policy Debates," Commentary, December 1999; "Statement of Principles," Project for the New American Century, June 3, 1997; and Albert Wohlstetter, "A Vote in Cuba? Why Not in Iraq?" Wall

    Street Journal, May 24, 1991.

    On the neoconservatives' thinking about regional transformation, see Robert Blecher, "Free

    People Will Set the Course of History," Middle East Report Online, March 2003; Jack Don­ nelly and Anthony Shadid, "Iraq War Hawks Have Plans to Reshape Entire Mideast," Boston Globe, September 10, 2002; Halper and Clarke, America Alone, 76-90; Nicholas Le­ mann, "After Iraq: The Plan to Remake the Middle East," New Yorker, February 17, 2003; and Klein, "How Israel."

    Quoted in Roula Khalaf, "Rice 'New Middle East' Comments Fuel Arab Fury over US Pol­ icy," Financial Times, July 31, 2006.

    Orly Halpern, "Israeli Experts Say Middle East Was Safer with Saddam in Iraq," Forward, January 5, 2007. Also see Leslie Susser, "Iraq War: Good or Bad for Israel? Saddam's Exe­ cution Revives Debate," JTA.org, January 2, 2007.

    Quoted in Chris McGreal, "Israelis May Regret Saddam Ousting, Says Security Chief," Guardian, February 9, 2006.

    James A. Baker III and Lee H. Hamilton, co-chairs, The Iraq Study Group Report (NewYork: Random House, 2006), xv, 28-29, 43-45, 50-58. Tony Blair, who repeatedly called for set­ tling the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and who favors negotiating with Iran and Syria, said that the Iraq Study Group "offers a strong way forward." Quoted in Sheryl Gay Stolberg and Kate Zernike, "Bush Expresses Caution on Key Points in Iraq Panel's Report," New York Times, December 7, 2006. Also see Kirk Semple, "Syrian Official, in Iraq, Offers Assis­ tance," New York Times, November 19, 2006.

    Akiva Eldar, "The Gewalt Agenda," Haaretz, November 20, 2006.

    Michael Abramowitz and Glenn Kessler, "Hawks Bolster Skeptical President," Washington

    Post, December 10, 2006; Associated Press, "Israel Experts Doubt Focusing on Israel-Arab Conflict Will Help in Iraq,"International Herald Tribune, December 6, 2006; "Gates's Shock­ ing Thinking on Iran," Jerusalem Post editorial, December 6, 2006; Nathan Guttman, "Baker Group Advisers 'Surprised,' 'Upset' at Report's Israel-Iraq Link," Forward, January 30, 2007; Jeff Jacoby, "Fighting to Win in Iraq," Boston Globe, December 3, 2006; Robert Kagan and William Kristol, "A Perfect Failure," Weekly Standard, December 11, 2006; Ron Kampeas, "ISG Fallout Continues with Query: Is Israeli-Arab Peace the Linchpin?"/TA.org, December 10, 2006; Jim Lobe, "Neocons Move to Preempt Baker Report," Antiwar.com, December 6, 2006; Marc Perelman, "As Washington Studies Iraq Report, Jerusalem Frets over Tehran

    Talk," Forward, December 15, 2006; Shmuel Rosner, "Baker's Brew," Haaretz, December 8,

    2006; and "The Iraq Muddle Group," Wall Street Journal editorial, December 7, 2006.

    Quoted in Shmuel Rosner, "FM Livni: U.S. Must Stand Firm on Iraq," Haaretz, March 13, 2007. Also see Shmuel Rosner, "Livni to AIPAC: U.S. Can't Show Weakness on Iraq, Iran,"

    Haaretz, March 12, 2007.

    The Olmert quotations are from Bradley Burston, "Israel Must Stay the Hell Out of U.S.

    Debate on Iraq," Haaretz, March 13, 2007; and Hilary L. Krieger, "PM's AIPAC Talk Sur­

    prises Delegates," Jerusalem Post, March 13, 2007.

    Burston, "Israel Must Stay." Also see Krieger, "PM's AIPAC Talk"; and Shmuel Rosner, "No

    Easy Answers on Israel and the Iraq Debate," Haaretz, March 13, 2007.

    "President Bush Welcomes Prime Minister Olmert of Israel to the White House," White

    House, Office of the Press Secretary, November 13, 2006.

    Quoted in James D. Besser, "Olmert Support for Iraq War Stirs Anger," Jewish Week, No­

    vember 17, 2006.

    David Horovitz, "Editor's Notes: Wading into the Great Debate," Jerusalem Post, March 15,

    2007.

    Quoted in Glenn Frankel, "A Beautiful Friendship?" Washington Post Sunday Magazine,

    July 16, 2006.

    Martin Kramer, "The American Interest," Azure 5767, no. 26 (Fall 2006): 29. Kramer also

    claims that "the assertion that the Iraq war is being waged on behalf of Israel is pure fiction," a remark at odds with Prime Minister Olmert's statement to the 2007 AIPAC Policy Con­ ference, where he explicitly linked Israel's security to victory in Iraq. See note 167 above. Also see Yossi Alpher, "Sharon Warned Bush," Forward, January 12, 2007.

    Alpher, "Sharon Warned Bush." Also see Herb Keinon, "Sharon Warned Bush of Saddam Threat," Jerusalem Post, January 11, 2007.

    See notes 21 and 25 above.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @iffen
    presented irrefutable evidence that the invasion of Iraq would not have occurred without the influence of the Israel Lobby.

    Just so I don't forget, I am going to inject here that I don't think that is what they said.

    I scanned the article then read parts of it. It has been my intent to go back and very carefully read the article. If I find that you are misrepresenting what they wrote, I will get back to you, because you will have some splaining to do.

    I am going to inject here that I don’t think that is what they said.

    Here’s a direct quote from page 58 of an exclusive FP Roundtable, The War Over Israel’s Influence, in which the truth-telling professors faced off with four distinguished experts of the Middle East over whether the influence of the Israel lobby is ordinary or extraordinary:

    We believe the United States would not have attacked Iraq without their [the Israel Lobby's] efforts.

    http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0042.pdf

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    presented irrefutable evidence that the invasion of Iraq would not have occurred

    We believe the United States would not have attacked Iraq without their [the Israel Lobby's] efforts.

    Believing and presenting irrefutable evidence are not the same.

    I will concede your point that they say it would not have happened without the efforts of the lobby/Lobby.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    Before getting to my present understanding of Netanyahu and his allies I was willing to assign quite a high probability to the settlement building policy being a tough minded approach to dealing with the Arab's deadly shame/honour culture which required that the only peace agreement acceptable to the Arabs could be represented by them as total victory for them. Thus I posited a situation where the settlements could be abandoned (or incorporated in a Palestinian majority state as a voluntary option) and East Jerusalem become the Palestinian capital and the Arabs would be able to claim total success (although some faction would carry on about the settlers being able to choose to stay and the terms on which they were so allowed). After all Ariel Sharon did give up Gaza. But that, as one might point out, could make my imagined scenario even less likely.

    Really?

    Gaza is independent and functioning.?
    No undue Israeli influence over every aspect of daily life?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Your choice, but your reading of what I said is bizarrely selective. Do you really think I implied that Gaza is a satisfactorily functioning independent polity, left alone by Israel? But, as you raise the subject, I do think your "undue Israeli influence over every aspect of daily life" is an exaggeration. I think it would be more accurate to say that "few aspects of daily life are totally unaffected by continuing Israeli interference in and threats of interference in Gaza".

    Do you think the present relations of Gaza and Israel are what Sharon envisaged? I doubt it.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    L.K.

    There is a funny "twist" to the "Hamas rocket fire"discussion, worthy of your consideration.

    If you study the laws of war, you find that "indiscriminate rocket fire" into civilian areas is a 'war crime"..

    .What that means is that Artillery company's, or Tanks, or battleships, or weapon-ized aircraft cannot just lob bombs into the civilian areas of their enemies, during hostilities. They have to be selective in their targeting.

    Right ?

    Makes sense.

    So Hamas has been found "guilty" of the war crime of indiscriminate bombing because the rockets they fire are non-directional.

    They are, in fact, so primitive their direction or "targeting" cannot be controlled.

    Are you with me so far ?

    Now Israel's siege on Gaza, is designed to prevent ANY weaponry to enter into Gaza,.... any weapons.....any weapons systems,.... and anything one might use to build a weapon.

    Correct?

    This being the case.... Hamas is FORCED , by Israel,to fashion crude, non-directional rockets to fire into Israel, because Israel doesn't ALLOW anything more advanced into Gaza.

    So who is really to blame for the non-directionality of Hamas rocket fire?

    Hamas or Israel ?

    Shouldn't ISRAEL, in fact, be in the dock at the Hague, for the war crime of"indiscriminate" rocket fire, every bit as much as Hamas , since it is Israels "siege" that "actually" fashioned their rockets crudeness ?

    So who is really to blame for the non-directionality of Hamas rocket fire?

    Hamas or Israel ?

    I intuitively thought that this is where you were and wanted to be.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art

    Israel: The Keepers Of The Gate

    By Uri Avnery

    June 04, 2016 "Information Clearing House" - I recently mentioned the German word Gleichschaltung – one of the most typical words in the Nazi vocabulary.

    "Gleich" means "the same", and "Schaltung" means "wiring". The long German word means that everything in the state is wired up the same way – the Nazi way.

    This was an essential part of the Nazi transformation of Germany. But it did not happen in any dramatic way. The replacement of people was slow, almost imperceptible. In the end, all important positions in the country were manned by Nazi functionaries.

    We are now witnessing something like this in Israel. We are already well into the middle of the process.

    Position after position is taken over by the far-far right, which is ruling Israel now. Slowly. Very, very slowly.
     
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article44802.htm

    Only Zionism has a chance in Israel. Zionism is Israel - Israel is Zionism

    Only Zionism has a chance in Israel. Zionism is Israel – Israel is Zionism

    Now you’re talking!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art

    Art:Only Zionism has a chance in Israel. Zionism is Israel – Israel is Zionism

    iffen: Now you’re talking!
     
    So the next logical question is “where does Zionism come from?” What is the base and foundation of Zionism?

    I say that it comes straight out of Jewish tradition. I say that Jewish culture leads to Zionism. I say that living the Jew culture makes one a Zionist. Not all Jews of every stripe are Zionists – but most are.

    The number one holiday for all Jews is Purim. It celebrates deception, war, and the power of killing.

    Here is the story of Purim: https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/mordecais-challenge-essay-war-leadership-purim/

    The short story is that Esther a Jewish princess in Persia turned the Kings head with her feminine wiles and became queen. She then had a Persian potentate hanged that opposed the Jew tribes. Mordecai a Jew strongman replaced the hanged potentate and murdered 75,000 Persians. He did it, not because it was necessary to maintain power – but show to the other power centers in Persia, who was boss. Esther and Mordecai controlled the king.

    They set into motion the idea that the way to Jew power was deception and killing. Hmm – does that not sound like Zionism today?

    Today Esther is AIPAC and the US government is the Persian king. And Netanyahu is Mordecai maintaining leverage and power over the king. Esther and Mordecai – AIPAC and Netanyahu.

    p.s. Even the Jew god kills children for them – Passover – celebrated for three thousand years.

    p.s. Death to ones enemies is big in the Jew tradition.

    p.s. Jew Zionism means death or capitulation for Gentiles.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Rurik

    Gee – Netanyahu’s talking points just flow out of your keyboard – is it magic?
     
    ;)

    You dim witted 88s. You think that we don’t have “approved” crib sheets and talking points delivered each week? Seriously? Cut & paste, not a lot of keyboard work.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    I think you overlook the fact that a lot of people and a lot of motives were involved in the decisions to go to war.
     
    Wiz, two truth-telling professors (M&W) presented irrefutable evidence that the invasion of Iraq would not have occurred without the influence of the Israel Lobby. Do you take issue with their conclusion?

    presented irrefutable evidence that the invasion of Iraq would not have occurred without the influence of the Israel Lobby.

    Just so I don’t forget, I am going to inject here that I don’t think that is what they said.

    I scanned the article then read parts of it. It has been my intent to go back and very carefully read the article. If I find that you are misrepresenting what they wrote, I will get back to you, because you will have some splaining to do.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    I am going to inject here that I don’t think that is what they said.
     
    Here's a direct quote from page 58 of an exclusive FP Roundtable, The War Over Israel's Influence, in which the truth-telling professors faced off with four distinguished experts of the Middle East over whether the influence of the Israel lobby is ordinary or extraordinary:

    We believe the United States would not have attacked Iraq without their [the Israel Lobby's] efforts.

    http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0042.pdf

     

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    You perhaps mistake the limited purpose of my comment which was to show how enforcing international law as one be sble to do with domestic law isn't necessarily possible. Further to my point i note that a long quote by L.K. suggests that Israel could only have been created legally by agreement with the Palestinians which is only less problematic when you think of what it means in practice as trying out the same formula, mutatis mutandis, on all the countries of the Americas, Australia and even New Zealand whose Treaty of Waitangi is a bit sus. And don't get me started on Africa and nearly all of Eurasia. Did the Ottoman state have legitimate rights iver Palestine which it could have transferred, without reference to local inhabitants, to the British for example? If so the League of Nations creation of a mandate might be tegarded as equivalent to appointing a trustee in bankruptcy.

    That said I see no justification for Israel to deprive Palestinians of their land and know that a majority of Israeli Jews would support or condone further expropriation.

    Before getting to my present understanding of Netanyahu and his allies I was willing to assign quite a high probability to the settlement building policy being a tough minded approach to dealing with the Arab’s deadly shame/honour culture which required that the only peace agreement acceptable to the Arabs could be represented by them as total victory for them. Thus I posited a situation where the settlements could be abandoned (or incorporated in a Palestinian majority state as a voluntary option) and East Jerusalem become the Palestinian capital and the Arabs would be able to claim total success (although some faction would carry on about the settlers being able to choose to stay and the terms on which they were so allowed). After all Ariel Sharon did give up Gaza. But that, as one might point out, could make my imagined scenario even less likely.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Really?

    Gaza is independent and functioning.?
    No undue Israeli influence over every aspect of daily life?

    , @alexander
    Wizard,

    Success for some should be success for all, especially when it leads to a long standing and prosperous peace in the middle east.

    I, for one, can see an Israel fully at peace with its neighbors. The influx of trade , tourism and good will would be IMMENSE..

    I think a robust compensation package for Palestinians forced from their homes in 48, combined with a Palestinian state, at peace with Israel, would allow the winds of freedom to blow over all Palestinians, and all Israelis too..

    The overwhelming positivism of this event would echo throughout the world, not just the middle east.

    Tourism would explode in Israel, and Palestine,....in Lebanon, in Egypt,in Syria, in Iran ,Iraq,and everywhere.

    Conflict and war profoundly "constricts" the ability of people to interact, Wizard.

    It is awfully hard to buy and sell goods, and travel, if everywhere is a 'war zone".

    Peace brings enormous freedom to everybody....Our wars have brought US nothing but boat loads of refugees, unending heartbreak and an obscene 20 trillion dollar national debt.

    Why is this a plus?

    Yes , the belligerent war mongers among us would have to eat crow......But for me, that kind of comeuppance is way overdue.

    They are ,for the most part, "evil greedy frauds "anyway, so why should we care about them ?

    I think, regards to the settlements, its pretty easy to fashion a plan, where some would be abandoned, some would be incorporated into Palestine, and some would be merged with Israel.

    Its not THAT hard.

    Peace between neighbors would allow for all sorts of unintended positives, we cannot even foresee , because no one has experienced it.

    Just the sheer "freedom of movement",...... the "peace of mind" everyone has, knowing the other guy is not trying to stab you , shoot you, blow you up, steal your home,or kill your kids, is worth so much, Wizard, it is almost priceless.

    This peace of mind CHANGES things.....I think its awesome.

    Its just too outstanding a prospect not to bring to fruition.

    We just need a vision for it....we need to be able to see it in our minds eye,...... to make it real.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Art says:

    Israel: The Keepers Of The Gate

    By Uri Avnery

    June 04, 2016 “Information Clearing House” – I recently mentioned the German word Gleichschaltung – one of the most typical words in the Nazi vocabulary.

    “Gleich” means “the same”, and “Schaltung” means “wiring”. The long German word means that everything in the state is wired up the same way – the Nazi way.

    This was an essential part of the Nazi transformation of Germany. But it did not happen in any dramatic way. The replacement of people was slow, almost imperceptible. In the end, all important positions in the country were manned by Nazi functionaries.

    We are now witnessing something like this in Israel. We are already well into the middle of the process.

    Position after position is taken over by the far-far right, which is ruling Israel now. Slowly. Very, very slowly.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article44802.htm

    Only Zionism has a chance in Israel. Zionism is Israel – Israel is Zionism

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Only Zionism has a chance in Israel. Zionism is Israel – Israel is Zionism

    Now you're talking!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    I don't think the alleged unification or dis-unification of the Palestinians somehow bestows upon Israel the right to steal Palestinian land, do you ?

    Besides,Israel had been building settlements for decades in the OPT when all of Palestine was completely unified under Arafat.

    Isn't this the case ?

    Furthermore,your comment suggests somehow that Israel, but not Palestine, deserves to be a state.

    As though any "state formation" of Palestine would function as an adjunct of Jordan or Lebanon,but somehow not its own independent entity.

    Is there a reason for your bias ? Does it rest on some principle ?

    It seems to me that if you believe Israel has a right to statehood, then Palestine should have no less an equal right., No ?

    If you think differently, I would like to know why.


    Your point about Palestinian unification also needs to be addressed.

    It seems whenever Palestine makes a genuine attempt to unify, like shortly after the collapse of the last "peace process",
    Israel quickly fashions some "pretext" to bomb them to smithereens, as in the case of the last Gaza blitzkrieg.

    it seems , looking back,as if the last Gaza slaughter was designed around Israels desire to punish Palestine for even attempting a unification between Fatah and Hamas.

    So.... if Israel is going to start exterminating Palestinian children en mass ,and blowing up Palestinian homes en mass,every time the two major Palestinian parties come together, how can you blame Palestine for being dis-unified ?

    Shouldn't you blame Israel ?

    And if Israel is to blame for the fracturing of Palestine, isn't that all the more reason to allow for the internationally mandated solution to take over ?

    Understanding Israels true intentions as neither a negotiated solution, nor Peace, but the extermination of Palestine completely ?

    You perhaps mistake the limited purpose of my comment which was to show how enforcing international law as one be sble to do with domestic law isn’t necessarily possible. Further to my point i note that a long quote by L.K. suggests that Israel could only have been created legally by agreement with the Palestinians which is only less problematic when you think of what it means in practice as trying out the same formula, mutatis mutandis, on all the countries of the Americas, Australia and even New Zealand whose Treaty of Waitangi is a bit sus. And don’t get me started on Africa and nearly all of Eurasia. Did the Ottoman state have legitimate rights iver Palestine which it could have transferred, without reference to local inhabitants, to the British for example? If so the League of Nations creation of a mandate might be tegarded as equivalent to appointing a trustee in bankruptcy.

    That said I see no justification for Israel to deprive Palestinians of their land and know that a majority of Israeli Jews would support or condone further expropriation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Before getting to my present understanding of Netanyahu and his allies I was willing to assign quite a high probability to the settlement building policy being a tough minded approach to dealing with the Arab's deadly shame/honour culture which required that the only peace agreement acceptable to the Arabs could be represented by them as total victory for them. Thus I posited a situation where the settlements could be abandoned (or incorporated in a Palestinian majority state as a voluntary option) and East Jerusalem become the Palestinian capital and the Arabs would be able to claim total success (although some faction would carry on about the settlers being able to choose to stay and the terms on which they were so allowed). After all Ariel Sharon did give up Gaza. But that, as one might point out, could make my imagined scenario even less likely.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @RobinG
    Geo, my friend,

    I take issue with your representation of their conclusion.
    M&W conclude that the Israel Lobby tipped the balance, goaded the attack dog, whatever. Deciding influence.

    Let's say, your mom would never have borne you without your dad. So he was essential, but he didn't do it alone.

    Let’s say, your mom would never have borne you without your dad. So he was essential, but he didn’t do it alone.

    Here’s what I wrote:

    … the invasion of Iraq would not have occurred without the influence of the Israel Lobby

    Here’s what M&W write:

    We also traced the lobby’s impact on recent U.S. policies, including the March 2003 invasion of Iraq. Neoconservatives inside and outside the Bush administration, as well as leaders of a number of prominent pro-Israel organizations, played key roles in making the case for war. We believe the United States would not have attacked Iraq without their efforts. That said, these groups and individuals did not operate in a vacuum, and they did not lead the country to war by themselves. For instance, the war would probably not have occurred absent the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, which helped convince President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney to support it.

    http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0042.pdf

    So I think I accurately represented the two professors’ position on this matter.

    But you are right to point out that they couldn’t have “tipped the balance, goaded the attack dog, whatever,” without the attacks on 9/11. But as I’ve been arguing in another thread, there is hard evidence to suggest that the Israelis may have played a role in the events on 9/11. That’s why I think an independent investigation should be opened to determine what role the Israelis played before, during, and after the events on that day. The evidence for calling for that investigation would be based on Carl Cameron’s 4-part series on Fox News and eyewitness testimony of the 5 Dancing Israelis.

    So you see Robin, the Israel Lobby happens to be both of my parents: my dad (pushing for the invasion of Iraq) and my mom (facilitating the events on 9/11, the pretext for invading Iraq).

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    You've really twisted yourself into a pretzel trying to defend your statement (and I'm not sure if you even believe it, or just oversimplify for effect) but I'm not impressed by your drifting from the subject, particularly since you falsely alleged that I "point out'" anything whatsoever about 9/11. And good grief, if there were actually "hard evidence" you wouldn't need the "may"

    ("...there is hard evidence to suggest that the Israelis may have played...")
     
    LOL. But you still misrepresent M&W. (I'm not saying 'misinterpret' because I'm sure you know what you're doing, weird inbreeding notwithstanding;))

    I believe I'm as much opposed to the Israel Lobby's influence on US policy as you are, but I don't think you enhance your credibility by pretending they're the only game in town. And every Senator and Congressman with defense industry jobs in their state (the MIC having thoughtfully located in ALL states) has a stake in the games.

    "According to Zbignew Brzezinski’s own bragging terrorism itself was born July 3, 1979 when President Carter, under his influence, signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the Soviet sponsored regime in Kabul. Never the less the Soviets did manage to keep Kabul relatively cosmopolitan until National Security Decision Directive 166 was passed under a bullet riddled and doddering president Reagan six years later, also under Brzezinski’s influence. That’s when terrorism became a lucrative and logical career choice for a poor boy from the Middle East. Ziggy long ago should have been dubbed by every honest historian as the father of modern Islamic terrorism and even before that should have been hung by the neck until dead in the interest of Justice…"
    Jack Heart, commenting on "Brzezinski’s NeoColonial Strategic Vision"
     
    http://journal-neo.org/2016/06/09/brzezinski-s-neocolonial-strategic-vision/
    Brzezinski’s NeoColonial Strategic Vision
    http://journal-neo.org/2016/06/09/brzezinski-s-neocolonial-strategic-vision/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @RobinG
    Geo, my friend,

    I take issue with your representation of their conclusion.
    M&W conclude that the Israel Lobby tipped the balance, goaded the attack dog, whatever. Deciding influence.

    Let's say, your mom would never have borne you without your dad. So he was essential, but he didn't do it alone.

    Hmmm… Maybe Robin,

    But having read the Neocons “clean break” strategy…one sees clearly how the desire to decimate Iraq was part and parcel of Israels overarching goal to render as much of the “Shiite Crescent” into an uninhabitable, fractured ,and shattered ruin ,as militarily possible.

    Whereas if you contrast that with Dick Cheney’s statements, just after the first Iraq War, he made the point quite strongly, as a matter of US policy , that in no way was the ouster of Saddam worth the sacrifice of even ONE US soldier.

    Furthermore George Bush Sr. was on record stating that the ouster of Saddam, would probably lead to a civil war and destabilize the entire region….. The very reason he refrained from “going all the way” in 91′.

    Which, when you pull back the curtain on the Neocon agenda, seems to have been their “exact” desire ,all along.

    However, to maneuver the US into position to actually undertake such an operation , they had to work the angles….and work the angles they did.

    They made sure there was something in it for everyone(in the know) if they “went for it”.

    And they are so good at handing out the goodies, and preparing the way for massive profiteering to every key player and industry that is “down with the plan”

    Its really quite a feat of political engineering, how they do that…..the almost unique combination of bribery, extortion, insider tracks, and anticipatory perks…that gets the ball rolling.

    My hat would go off to them for how they covered all the bases to “make it a go”,but I just have no respect for anyone who wishes to start a war of aggression, no matter how clever they are.

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  • L.K says:

    Clarification on Israel’s foundation and its alleged ‘right to exist as a jewish state’.
    British author and journalist, Alan Hart, who has written several books on the Israel-Palestinian conflict, wrote:

    According to history as written by the winner, Zionism, Israel was given its birth certificate and thus legitimacy by the UN Partition Resolution of 29 November 1947. This is propaganda nonsense.

    o In the first place the UN without the consent of the majority of the people of Palestine did not have the right to decide to partition Palestine or assign any part of its territory to a minority of alien immigrants in order for them to establish a state of their own.

    o Despite that, by the narrowest of margins, and only after a rigged vote, the UN General Assembly did pass a resolution to partition Palestine and create two states, one Arab, one Jewish, with Jerusalem not part of either. But the General Assembly resolution was only a proposal – meaning that it could have no effect, would not become policy, unless approved by the Security Council.

    o The truth is that the General Assembly’s partition proposal never went to the Security Council for consideration. Why not? Because the U.S. knew that, if approved, it could only be implemented by force given the extent of Arab and other Muslim opposition to it; and President Truman was not prepared to use force to partition Palestine.

    o So the partition plan was vitiated (became invalid) and the question of what the hell to do about Palestine – after Britain had made a mess of it and walked away, effectively surrendering to Zionist terrorism – was taken back to the General Assembly for more discussion. The option favoured and proposed by the U.S. was temporary UN Trusteeship. It was while the General Assembly was debating what do that Israel unilaterally declared itself to be in existence – actually in defiance of the will of the organised international community, including the Truman administration.
    The truth of the time was that the Zionist state, which came into being mainly as a consequence of pre-planned ethnic cleansing, had no right to exist and, more to the point, could have no right to exist UNLESS … Unless it was recognised and legitimized by those who were dispossessed of their land and their rights during the creation of the Zionist state. In international law only the Palestinians could give Israel the legitimacy it craved.
    And that legitimacy was the only thing the Zionists could not and cannot take from the Palestinians by force.

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  • L.K says:
    @Avery
    {No, it was NOT. It’s well documented by now, .....}

    You neo-Nazi, denialist, revisionist mongrel.POS™.
    I specifically wrote: "“One of the original purposes for invading Iraq was to steal Iraq’s oil”
    One of the is not the same as only or primary, you neo-Nazi, denialist, revisionist mongrel.POS™.

    Another one of the reasons was G. Dubya, the man-child, "avenging" the alleged assassination attempt by Saddam on Bush Sr.
    Lots of reasons. Israel being one of them.

    But since you are a neo-Nazi, anti-Armenian, anti-Orthodox Christian, denialist, revisionist mongrel.POS™, your birdbrain is addled.

    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!

    avery, my pet insect, wrote, again, as if to make a diff:
    “I specifically wrote: ““One of the original purposes for invading Iraq was to steal Iraq’s oil”

    NO, it was NOT.

    Your long list of insults is funny;
    neo-nazi – I ain’t
    anti-armenian – I ain’t, I’m anti-imbecile though, and you are an imbecile.
    anti-Orthodox Christian[!!!!] – this one u really pulled out of your a*s crack, did u not?
    denialist – I don’t deny, I afirm, :-)
    revisionist – well, revision is the bread of Science. Without it all we have left are dogmas. If mankind had only ever produced dogmatic idiots, such as yourself, we’d still be living in caves.

    Now, boy, remember to take your meds, I’ve noticed your propensity for being seized with regular fits of hysterics!

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  • @L.K
    Art,

    Another good post(the 158).

    Your posts are simple, short but shrewd and often hit the bullseye.

    Regards

    L.k,

    Thanks for the kind words.

    “Keep it simple” works for me. The less words the less mistakes. (smile)

    Art

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  • L.K says:

    Given the enormous amount of zio disinformation and also ignorance re who the Palestinians are, I think it is time to clarify a few points;

    The Palestinians, both moslems and christians, are, for the most part, a local levantine ethnic group.
    From wiki, which tends to be a biased source, we can read;

    “The Palestinian people…are an ethnic group[19][20] comprising the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine over the centuries, and who today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab due to Arabization of the region.”

    In a genetic study( Nebel et al., 2000) carried out largely by Jewish researchers, one can read:

    “By the fifth century AD, the majority of non-Jews and Jews had become Christians by conversion…[after the moslem conquest] This was followed by a slow process of Islamization of the local population, both of Christians and Jews…According to historical records part, or perhaps the majority, of the Moslem Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD…. These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times (Gil 1992). On the other hand, the ancestors of the great majority of present-day Jews lived outside this region for almost two millennia. Thus, our findings are in good agreement with historical evidence…

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  • @L.K
    avery:
    "One of the original purposes for invading Iraq was to steal Iraq’s oil"


    No, it was NOT. It's well documented by now, by scholars both conservative as well as some leftist ones, that the Iraq war was basically a war for Israel. One of many planned, really.


    "There is no international law: it’s a jungle."


    Of course there is international law, the fact that rogue states such as ZUSA and Israel violate it all the time with impunity does not really change that at all.
    It only highlights the fact that rogue states behave as if they are above the law.

    {No, it was NOT. It’s well documented by now, …..}

    You neo-Nazi, denialist, revisionist mongrel.POS™.
    I specifically wrote: ““One of the original purposes for invading Iraq was to steal Iraq’s oil”
    One of the is not the same as only or primary, you neo-Nazi, denialist, revisionist mongrel.POS™.

    Another one of the reasons was G. Dubya, the man-child, “avenging” the alleged assassination attempt by Saddam on Bush Sr.
    Lots of reasons. Israel being one of them.

    But since you are a neo-Nazi, anti-Armenian, anti-Orthodox Christian, denialist, revisionist mongrel.POS™, your birdbrain is addled.

    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!

    Read More
    • Replies: @L.K
    avery, my pet insect, wrote, again, as if to make a diff:
    "I specifically wrote: ““One of the original purposes for invading Iraq was to steal Iraq’s oil”

    NO, it was NOT.

    Your long list of insults is funny;
    neo-nazi - I ain't
    anti-armenian - I ain't, I'm anti-imbecile though, and you are an imbecile.
    anti-Orthodox Christian[!!!!] - this one u really pulled out of your a*s crack, did u not?
    denialist - I don't deny, I afirm, :-)
    revisionist - well, revision is the bread of Science. Without it all we have left are dogmas. If mankind had only ever produced dogmatic idiots, such as yourself, we'd still be living in caves.

    Now, boy, remember to take your meds, I've noticed your propensity for being seized with regular fits of hysterics!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art
    Further, even if political opinion in Israel turned in favor of negotiation, there is no unified Palestinian side with which to negotiate.

    Gee - Netanyahu's talking points just flow out of your keyboard - is it magic?

    Gee - is there some sinister something keeping the Palestinians apart?

    Gee - would the tribe do a divide and conquer thing on the Palestinians?

    Gee - how can I think such a thing?

    Art,

    Another good post(the 158).

    Your posts are simple, short but shrewd and often hit the bullseye.

    Regards

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    L.k,

    Thanks for the kind words.

    “Keep it simple” works for me. The less words the less mistakes. (smile)

    Art
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    I think you overlook the fact that a lot of people and a lot of motives were involved in the decisions to go to war.
     
    Wiz, two truth-telling professors (M&W) presented irrefutable evidence that the invasion of Iraq would not have occurred without the influence of the Israel Lobby. Do you take issue with their conclusion?

    Geo, my friend,

    I take issue with your representation of their conclusion.
    M&W conclude that the Israel Lobby tipped the balance, goaded the attack dog, whatever. Deciding influence.

    Let’s say, your mom would never have borne you without your dad. So he was essential, but he didn’t do it alone.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Hmmm... Maybe Robin,

    But having read the Neocons "clean break" strategy...one sees clearly how the desire to decimate Iraq was part and parcel of Israels overarching goal to render as much of the "Shiite Crescent" into an uninhabitable, fractured ,and shattered ruin ,as militarily possible.


    Whereas if you contrast that with Dick Cheney's statements, just after the first Iraq War, he made the point quite strongly, as a matter of US policy , that in no way was the ouster of Saddam worth the sacrifice of even ONE US soldier.

    Furthermore George Bush Sr. was on record stating that the ouster of Saddam, would probably lead to a civil war and destabilize the entire region..... The very reason he refrained from "going all the way" in 91'.

    Which, when you pull back the curtain on the Neocon agenda, seems to have been their "exact" desire ,all along.

    However, to maneuver the US into position to actually undertake such an operation , they had to work the angles....and work the angles they did.

    They made sure there was something in it for everyone(in the know) if they "went for it".

    And they are so good at handing out the goodies, and preparing the way for massive profiteering to every key player and industry that is "down with the plan"

    Its really quite a feat of political engineering, how they do that.....the almost unique combination of bribery, extortion, insider tracks, and anticipatory perks...that gets the ball rolling.

    My hat would go off to them for how they covered all the bases to "make it a go",but I just have no respect for anyone who wishes to start a war of aggression, no matter how clever they are.

    , @geokat62

    Let’s say, your mom would never have borne you without your dad. So he was essential, but he didn’t do it alone.
     
    Here's what I wrote:

    ... the invasion of Iraq would not have occurred without the influence of the Israel Lobby
     
    Here's what M&W write:

    We also traced the lobby’s impact on recent U.S. policies, including the March 2003 invasion of Iraq. Neoconservatives inside and outside the Bush administration, as well as leaders of a number of prominent pro-Israel organizations, played key roles in making the case for war. We believe the United States would not have attacked Iraq without their efforts. That said, these groups and individuals did not operate in a vacuum, and they did not lead the country to war by themselves. For instance, the war would probably not have occurred absent the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, which helped convince President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney to support it.

    http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0042.pdf

     

    So I think I accurately represented the two professors' position on this matter.

    But you are right to point out that they couldn't have "tipped the balance, goaded the attack dog, whatever," without the attacks on 9/11. But as I've been arguing in another thread, there is hard evidence to suggest that the Israelis may have played a role in the events on 9/11. That's why I think an independent investigation should be opened to determine what role the Israelis played before, during, and after the events on that day. The evidence for calling for that investigation would be based on Carl Cameron's 4-part series on Fox News and eyewitness testimony of the 5 Dancing Israelis.

    So you see Robin, the Israel Lobby happens to be both of my parents: my dad (pushing for the invasion of Iraq) and my mom (facilitating the events on 9/11, the pretext for invading Iraq).

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @L.K
    Old Jew,
    The reasons that explain why there have been few casualties from Hamas rocket fire are not difficult to understand.
    It's not that piece of zio propaganda, the iron dome; Prof.Postol explains:

    ...Israel does in fact have an extremely effective missile defense. That defense is the early warning system that tells people on the ground a rocket is traveling in their direction, and the shelters that are arranged so that individuals can easily get to protection within tens of seconds of warning.
    ...In the particular case of rocket attacks against Israel, the overwhelming number of artillery rocket warheads are in the 10- to 20-pound range, which makes the effectiveness of shelters even greater.
    These two factors, the small size of the warheads, and the warning and sheltering system completely explain why there have been no casualties from the rocket attacks...
     
    So, primitive artillery rockets with tiny warheads + very effective early warning system + bomb shelters.

    As for the idf sissies in 2014; they did invade but never went deep into Gaza as israeli military intel estimated they would suffer thousands of casualties if they did.
    The idf's limited ground operations cost them over 530 casualties in KIA/WIA, as per what they admitted.

    Former zionist terrorist and israeli soldier, Uri Avnery, had this to say about the last israeli attack on Gaza and the bravery and skills of the palestinian fighters;
    AFTER 29 DAYS of fighting (until now), who has won?

    It is, of course, much too early to draw final conclusions. The ceasefire has blown up. It will take months and years to sum up all the consequences. But Israeli popular wisdom has already drawn its own conclusions: it is a draw.
    [...]
    WHEN A guerrilla organization with at most 10,000 fighters achieves a draw with one of the mightiest armies in the world[trust me Uri, it is not], equipped with the most ultra-modern weapons, that is by itself a kind of victory.
    Hamas has not only shown a lot of courage during the fighting, but also surprising ingenuity in preparing for this campaign. It is still standing upright.
    ...
    The Israeli army, on the other hand, has shown very little imagination. It was quite unprepared for the maze of tunnels.
    ...
    Indeed, as a commentator dared to write, the army has become a heavy, cumbersome, conservative machine... Its doctrine was, in essence, to pound the civilian population into submission, causing as much killing and destruction as possible, so as to deter the "resistance" as much and as long as possible
    . In Israel, the terrible pictures of death and destruction did not evoke compassion. On the contrary. People were proud of it.
     

    L.K.

    There is a funny “twist” to the “Hamas rocket fire”discussion, worthy of your consideration.

    If you study the laws of war, you find that “indiscriminate rocket fire” into civilian areas is a ‘war crime”..

    .What that means is that Artillery company’s, or Tanks, or battleships, or weapon-ized aircraft cannot just lob bombs into the civilian areas of their enemies, during hostilities. They have to be selective in their targeting.

    Right ?

    Makes sense.

    So Hamas has been found “guilty” of the war crime of indiscriminate bombing because the rockets they fire are non-directional.

    They are, in fact, so primitive their direction or “targeting” cannot be controlled.

    Are you with me so far ?

    Now Israel’s siege on Gaza, is designed to prevent ANY weaponry to enter into Gaza,…. any weapons…..any weapons systems,…. and anything one might use to build a weapon.

    Correct?

    This being the case…. Hamas is FORCED , by Israel,to fashion crude, non-directional rockets to fire into Israel, because Israel doesn’t ALLOW anything more advanced into Gaza.

    So who is really to blame for the non-directionality of Hamas rocket fire?

    Hamas or Israel ?

    Shouldn’t ISRAEL, in fact, be in the dock at the Hague, for the war crime of”indiscriminate” rocket fire, every bit as much as Hamas , since it is Israels “siege” that “actually” fashioned their rockets crudeness ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    So who is really to blame for the non-directionality of Hamas rocket fire?

    Hamas or Israel ?


    I intuitively thought that this is where you were and wanted to be.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @OLD JEW
    Mr. Avery,

    Possibly Mr. Postol is right. I am not qualified to judge.

    I can only refer to the reaction of the populace.

    In 1990 Sadam's SCUD missiles were raining upon Israel. Friends came to us in Philadelphia, fleeing for safety. Subjectively they were not impressed by their Patriot defense.

    With Hamas, nobody fled. If Postol is right then the IDF put up a very convincing show.

    Nobody got hurt in Tel Aviv.

    It does not seem to matter whether Iron Dome was effective. Only the appearance of of efectiveness. It mattered only that people (Israelis, my family) believed it effective and felt safe.

    Where Hamas was effective, it was with mortar fire. Keeping thousands of infantry men for weeks at 2 miles from the Gaza border while politicians debate "to invade/not to invade" provides great "sitting ducks" for Hamas mortars.

    And this same political wisdom operated in 1986 at the border of Lebanon. Keeping soldiers as sitting ducks for Hezbollah missiles.

    The ziocons’ imperial plans will inevitably backfire. Israel has already lost any moral ground and made the Holocaust Museums into a reminder of the current victims of Israel, thus betraying the memory of the perished Jewish people. Add to that the amazing flexibility of ziocons towards Ukrainian neo-nazis. Sad.

    Here is Mr. Auslin of American Enterprise Institute (a nest of ziocons like Bolton and Krauthummer) lecturing Americans on more wars and, preferably, a hot war: http://www.aei.org/publication/the-next-us-president-must-carry-a-big-stick/?utm_source=paramount&utm_medium

    “Like the Romans, we need constant vigilance, but also stronger military resolve. To make even a remotely significant impact on this front, the next president will have to consider military action beyond capital-intensive special operations missions or the mere pinpricks inflicted so far through air strikes and invisible drone operations… and rally fellow liberal leaders to do much more, much more lethally.
    After nearly 20 years of quiescence, Russia has stormed back to become the bête noire of Europe. Its annexation of Crimea has already been forgotten in the West, like its 2008 invasion of Georgia, while it retains an invading force in eastern Ukraine. Even as Vladimir Putin threatens nuclear war against Baltic Nato countries, he has bloodily intervened in the Syrian civil war, filling the gap left by Obama’s unwillingness to get involved, and returning Russia to meddle in Middle Eastern geopolitics after an absence of four decades. With the same brutality shown in its war in Chechnya that was ignored by the West, the Russian air force bombs civilians while keeping Assad in power.”
    Auslin, this malicious war-monger believes that Americans are not able to remember that it was Georgia (prompted by the US) that has attached Ossetia (and Russia responded), and that it was Mrs. Nuland-Kagan that had been doing a regime change in Kiev (with CIA’ Brennan in the wings), which resulted in the demands of federalization by the eastern Ukrainians. But Mr. Auslin saved his greatest irritation and lies for Syrian tragedy; Israel wants the Golan Heights and Mr. Auslin would say anything to dirty the SA/RF attempts to preserve Syrian sovereignty from the attacks of ISIS & Israel/US.

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  • @Art
    Further, even if political opinion in Israel turned in favor of negotiation, there is no unified Palestinian side with which to negotiate.

    Gee - Netanyahu's talking points just flow out of your keyboard - is it magic?

    Gee - is there some sinister something keeping the Palestinians apart?

    Gee - would the tribe do a divide and conquer thing on the Palestinians?

    Gee - how can I think such a thing?

    Gee – Netanyahu’s talking points just flow out of your keyboard – is it magic?

    ;)

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    • Replies: @iffen
    You dim witted 88s. You think that we don't have "approved" crib sheets and talking points delivered each week? Seriously? Cut & paste, not a lot of keyboard work.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    Indeed Alexander's clear criterion for a negotiated legal change (or initial legal establishment) of boundaries runs into the fuzziness of facts. Not only are the Palestinians not unified. But what could make them (any Palestinian "them") a body or polity which can be negotiated with so the result would be recognised as binding in international law? And binding on whom? Ifan? Lebanon? ????

    I don’t think the alleged unification or dis-unification of the Palestinians somehow bestows upon Israel the right to steal Palestinian land, do you ?

    Besides,Israel had been building settlements for decades in the OPT when all of Palestine was completely unified under Arafat.

    Isn’t this the case ?

    Furthermore,your comment suggests somehow that Israel, but not Palestine, deserves to be a state.

    As though any “state formation” of Palestine would function as an adjunct of Jordan or Lebanon,but somehow not its own independent entity.

    Is there a reason for your bias ? Does it rest on some principle ?

    It seems to me that if you believe Israel has a right to statehood, then Palestine should have no less an equal right., No ?

    If you think differently, I would like to know why.

    Your point about Palestinian unification also needs to be addressed.

    It seems whenever Palestine makes a genuine attempt to unify, like shortly after the collapse of the last “peace process”,
    Israel quickly fashions some “pretext” to bomb them to smithereens, as in the case of the last Gaza blitzkrieg.

    it seems , looking back,as if the last Gaza slaughter was designed around Israels desire to punish Palestine for even attempting a unification between Fatah and Hamas.

    So…. if Israel is going to start exterminating Palestinian children en mass ,and blowing up Palestinian homes en mass,every time the two major Palestinian parties come together, how can you blame Palestine for being dis-unified ?

    Shouldn’t you blame Israel ?

    And if Israel is to blame for the fracturing of Palestine, isn’t that all the more reason to allow for the internationally mandated solution to take over ?

    Understanding Israels true intentions as neither a negotiated solution, nor Peace, but the extermination of Palestine completely ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You perhaps mistake the limited purpose of my comment which was to show how enforcing international law as one be sble to do with domestic law isn't necessarily possible. Further to my point i note that a long quote by L.K. suggests that Israel could only have been created legally by agreement with the Palestinians which is only less problematic when you think of what it means in practice as trying out the same formula, mutatis mutandis, on all the countries of the Americas, Australia and even New Zealand whose Treaty of Waitangi is a bit sus. And don't get me started on Africa and nearly all of Eurasia. Did the Ottoman state have legitimate rights iver Palestine which it could have transferred, without reference to local inhabitants, to the British for example? If so the League of Nations creation of a mandate might be tegarded as equivalent to appointing a trustee in bankruptcy.

    That said I see no justification for Israel to deprive Palestinians of their land and know that a majority of Israeli Jews would support or condone further expropriation.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Art says:
    @iffen
    There are a least two major complications in your scenario.

    One is your basic puppet government; see Ukraine. Puppet governments cede territory all the time; sometimes it sticks and sometimes it doesn’t.

    Secondly, it is obvious to the casual observer (as we used to say in junior high) that Israel has no interest in a negotiated settlement. Further, even if political opinion in Israel turned in favor of negotiation, there is no unified Palestinian side with which to negotiate.

    Further, even if political opinion in Israel turned in favor of negotiation, there is no unified Palestinian side with which to negotiate.

    Gee – Netanyahu’s talking points just flow out of your keyboard – is it magic?

    Gee – is there some sinister something keeping the Palestinians apart?

    Gee – would the tribe do a divide and conquer thing on the Palestinians?

    Gee – how can I think such a thing?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    Gee – Netanyahu’s talking points just flow out of your keyboard – is it magic?
     
    ;)
    , @L.K
    Art,

    Another good post(the 158).

    Your posts are simple, short but shrewd and often hit the bullseye.

    Regards

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • L.K says:
    @OLD JEW
    Mr. Avery,

    Possibly Mr. Postol is right. I am not qualified to judge.

    I can only refer to the reaction of the populace.

    In 1990 Sadam's SCUD missiles were raining upon Israel. Friends came to us in Philadelphia, fleeing for safety. Subjectively they were not impressed by their Patriot defense.

    With Hamas, nobody fled. If Postol is right then the IDF put up a very convincing show.

    Nobody got hurt in Tel Aviv.

    It does not seem to matter whether Iron Dome was effective. Only the appearance of of efectiveness. It mattered only that people (Israelis, my family) believed it effective and felt safe.

    Where Hamas was effective, it was with mortar fire. Keeping thousands of infantry men for weeks at 2 miles from the Gaza border while politicians debate "to invade/not to invade" provides great "sitting ducks" for Hamas mortars.

    And this same political wisdom operated in 1986 at the border of Lebanon. Keeping soldiers as sitting ducks for Hezbollah missiles.

    Old Jew,
    The reasons that explain why there have been few casualties from Hamas rocket fire are not difficult to understand.
    It’s not that piece of zio propaganda, the iron dome; Prof.Postol explains:

    …Israel does in fact have an extremely effective missile defense. That defense is the early warning system that tells people on the ground a rocket is traveling in their direction, and the shelters that are arranged so that individuals can easily get to protection within tens of seconds of warning.
    …In the particular case of rocket attacks against Israel, the overwhelming number of artillery rocket warheads are in the 10- to 20-pound range, which makes the effectiveness of shelters even greater.
    These two factors, the small size of the warheads, and the warning and sheltering system completely explain why there have been no casualties from the rocket attacks…

    So, primitive artillery rockets with tiny warheads + very effective early warning system + bomb shelters.

    As for the idf sissies in 2014; they did invade but never went deep into Gaza as israeli military intel estimated they would suffer thousands of casualties if they did.
    The idf’s limited ground operations cost them over 530 casualties in KIA/WIA, as per what they admitted.

    Former zionist terrorist and israeli soldier, Uri Avnery, had this to say about the last israeli attack on Gaza and the bravery and skills of the palestinian fighters;
    AFTER 29 DAYS of fighting (until now), who has won?

    It is, of course, much too early to draw final conclusions. The ceasefire has blown up. It will take months and years to sum up all the consequences. But Israeli popular wisdom has already drawn its own conclusions: it is a draw.
    [...]
    WHEN A guerrilla organization with at most 10,000 fighters achieves a draw with one of the mightiest armies in the world[trust me Uri, it is not], equipped with the most ultra-modern weapons, that is by itself a kind of victory.
    Hamas has not only shown a lot of courage during the fighting, but also surprising ingenuity in preparing for this campaign. It is still standing upright.

    The Israeli army, on the other hand, has shown very little imagination. It was quite unprepared for the maze of tunnels.

    Indeed, as a commentator dared to write, the army has become a heavy, cumbersome, conservative machine… Its doctrine was, in essence, to pound the civilian population into submission, causing as much killing and destruction as possible, so as to deter the “resistance” as much and as long as possible
    . In Israel, the terrible pictures of death and destruction did not evoke compassion. On the contrary. People were proud of it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    L.K.

    There is a funny "twist" to the "Hamas rocket fire"discussion, worthy of your consideration.

    If you study the laws of war, you find that "indiscriminate rocket fire" into civilian areas is a 'war crime"..

    .What that means is that Artillery company's, or Tanks, or battleships, or weapon-ized aircraft cannot just lob bombs into the civilian areas of their enemies, during hostilities. They have to be selective in their targeting.

    Right ?

    Makes sense.

    So Hamas has been found "guilty" of the war crime of indiscriminate bombing because the rockets they fire are non-directional.

    They are, in fact, so primitive their direction or "targeting" cannot be controlled.

    Are you with me so far ?

    Now Israel's siege on Gaza, is designed to prevent ANY weaponry to enter into Gaza,.... any weapons.....any weapons systems,.... and anything one might use to build a weapon.

    Correct?

    This being the case.... Hamas is FORCED , by Israel,to fashion crude, non-directional rockets to fire into Israel, because Israel doesn't ALLOW anything more advanced into Gaza.

    So who is really to blame for the non-directionality of Hamas rocket fire?

    Hamas or Israel ?

    Shouldn't ISRAEL, in fact, be in the dock at the Hague, for the war crime of"indiscriminate" rocket fire, every bit as much as Hamas , since it is Israels "siege" that "actually" fashioned their rockets crudeness ?

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  • @Wizard of Oz
    I think you overlook the fact that a lot of people and a lot of motives were involved in the decisions to go to war. There were those, too, who were saying "well, anyway, the restoring of Iraq as an oil supplier will pay for it". As some collateral evidence for the nuance I am trying to introduce consider how it became clear that the WMD story had to be settled on in the end just so there was an agreed song sheet they could all sing from.

    I think you overlook the fact that a lot of people and a lot of motives were involved in the decisions to go to war.

    Wiz, two truth-telling professors (M&W) presented irrefutable evidence that the invasion of Iraq would not have occurred without the influence of the Israel Lobby. Do you take issue with their conclusion?

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    • Replies: @RobinG
    Geo, my friend,

    I take issue with your representation of their conclusion.
    M&W conclude that the Israel Lobby tipped the balance, goaded the attack dog, whatever. Deciding influence.

    Let's say, your mom would never have borne you without your dad. So he was essential, but he didn't do it alone.
    , @iffen
    presented irrefutable evidence that the invasion of Iraq would not have occurred without the influence of the Israel Lobby.

    Just so I don't forget, I am going to inject here that I don't think that is what they said.

    I scanned the article then read parts of it. It has been my intent to go back and very carefully read the article. If I find that you are misrepresenting what they wrote, I will get back to you, because you will have some splaining to do.
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  • the point of the war was to destroy iraq and kill saddam.

    then move on to jew-hated country #2

    if gold, oil, ancient treasures, sand for glass, pallets loaded with c-notes, can also be stolen

    well

    collateral benefits

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