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Andrei Martyanov Andrew J. Bacevich Andrew Joyce Andrew Napolitano Boyd D. Cathey Brad Griffin C.J. Hopkins Chanda Chisala Eamonn Fingleton Eric Margolis Fred Reed Godfree Roberts Gustavo Arellano Ilana Mercer Israel Shamir James Kirkpatrick James Petras James Thompson Jared Taylor JayMan John Derbyshire John Pilger Jonathan Revusky Kevin MacDonald Linh Dinh Michael Hoffman Michael Hudson Mike Whitney Nathan Cofnas Norman Finkelstein Pat Buchanan Patrick Cockburn Paul Craig Roberts Paul Gottfried Paul Kersey Peter Frost Peter Lee Philip Giraldi Philip Weiss Robert Weissberg Ron Paul Ron Unz Stephen J. Sniegoski The Saker Tom Engelhardt A. Graham Adam Hochschild Aedon Cassiel Ahmet Öncü Alexander Cockburn Alexander Hart Alfred McCoy Alison Rose Levy Alison Weir Anand Gopal Andre Damon Andrew Cockburn Andrew Fraser Andy Kroll Ann Jones Anonymous Anthony DiMaggio Ariel Dorfman Arlie Russell Hochschild Arno Develay Arnold Isaacs Artem Zagorodnov Astra Taylor Austen Layard Aviva Chomsky Ayman Fadel Barbara Ehrenreich Barbara Garson Barbara Myers Barry Lando Belle Chesler Beverly Gologorsky Bill Black Bill Moyers Bob Dreyfuss Bonnie Faulkner Brenton Sanderson Brett Redmayne-Titley Brian Dew Carl Horowitz Catherine Crump Charles Bausman Charles Goodhart Charles Wood Charlotteville Survivor Chase Madar Chris Hedges Chris Roberts Christian Appy Christopher DeGroot Chuck Spinney Coleen Rowley Cooper Sterling Craig Murray Dahr Jamail Dan E. Phillips Dan Sanchez Daniel McAdams Danny Sjursen Dave Kranzler Dave Lindorff David Barsamian David Bromwich David Chibo David Gordon David North David Vine David Walsh David William Pear Dean Baker Dennis Saffran Diana Johnstone Dilip Hiro Dirk Bezemer Ed Warner Edmund Connelly Eduardo Galeano Ellen Cantarow Ellen Packer Ellison Lodge Eric Draitser Eric Zuesse Erik Edstrom Erika Eichelberger Erin L. Thompson Eugene Girin F. Roger Devlin Franklin Lamb Frida Berrigan Friedrich Zauner Gabriel Black Gary Corseri Gary North Gary Younge Gene Tuttle George Albert George Bogdanich George Szamuely Georgianne Nienaber Glenn Greenwald Greg Grandin Greg Johnson Gregoire Chamayou Gregory Foster Gregory Hood Gregory Wilpert Guest Admin Hannah Appel Hans-Hermann Hoppe Harri Honkanen Henry Cockburn Hina Shamsi Howard Zinn Hubert Collins Hugh McInnish Ira Chernus Jack Kerwick Jack Rasmus Jack Ravenwood Jack Sen James Bovard James Carroll James Fulford Jane Lazarre Jared S. Baumeister Jason C. Ditz Jason Kessler Jay Stanley Jeff J. Brown Jeffrey Blankfort Jeffrey St. Clair Jen Marlowe Jeremiah Goulka Jeremy Cooper Jesse Mossman Jim Daniel Jim Kavanagh JoAnn Wypijewski Joe Lauria Johannes Wahlstrom John W. Dower John Feffer John Fund John Harrison Sims John Reid John Stauber John Taylor John V. Walsh John Williams Jon Else Jonathan Alan King Jonathan Anomaly Jonathan Rooper Jonathan Schell Joseph Kishore Juan Cole Judith Coburn K.R. Bolton Karel Van Wolferen Karen Greenberg Kelley Vlahos Kersasp D. Shekhdar Kevin Barrett Kevin Zeese Kshama Sawant Lance Welton Laura Gottesdiener Laura Poitras Laurent Guyénot Lawrence G. Proulx Leo Hohmann Linda Preston Logical Meme Lorraine Barlett M.G. Miles Mac Deford Maidhc O Cathail Malcolm Unwell Marcus Alethia Marcus Cicero Margaret Flowers Mark Danner Mark Engler Mark Perry Matt Parrott Mattea Kramer Matthew Harwood Matthew Richer Matthew Stevenson Max Blumenthal Max Denken Max North Maya Schenwar Michael Gould-Wartofsky Michael Schwartz Michael T. Klare Murray Polner Nan Levinson Naomi Oreskes Nate Terani Ned Stark Nelson Rosit Nicholas Stix Nick Kollerstrom Nick Turse Noam Chomsky Nomi Prins Patrick Cleburne Patrick Cloutier Paul Cochrane Paul Engler Paul Nachman Paul Nehlen Pepe Escobar Peter Brimelow Peter Gemma Peter Van Buren Pierre M. Sprey Pratap Chatterjee Publius Decius Mus Rajan Menon Ralph Nader Ramin Mazaheri Ramziya Zaripova Randy Shields Ray McGovern Razib Khan Rebecca Gordon Rebecca Solnit Richard Krushnic Richard Silverstein Rick Shenkman Rita Rozhkova Robert Baxter Robert Bonomo Robert Fisk Robert Lipsyte Robert Parry Robert Roth Robert S. Griffin Robert Scheer Robert Trivers Robin Eastman Abaya Roger Dooghy Ronald N. Neff Rory Fanning Sam Francis Sam Husseini Sayed Hasan Sharmini Peries Sheldon Richman Spencer Davenport Spencer Quinn Stefan Karganovic Steffen A. Woll Stephanie Savell Stephen J. Rossi Steve Fraser Steven Yates Sydney Schanberg Tanya Golash-Boza Ted Rall Theodore A. Postol Thierry Meyssan Thomas Frank Thomas O. Meehan Tim Shorrock Tim Weiner Tobias Langdon Todd E. Pierce Todd Gitlin Todd Miller Tom Piatak Tom Suarez Tom Sunic Tracy Rosenberg Virginia Dare Vladimir Brovkin Vox Day W. Patrick Lang Walter Block William Binney William DeBuys William Hartung William J. Astore Winslow T. Wheeler Ximena Ortiz Yan Shen
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    Post updated, 7/23/15. See below! At long last, I reach my 200th blog post. It's been a quite a ride! Blogging on human biodiversity – or simply humanity – has taught me a great deal. Since the start, I hoped that I could offer some meager contribution to mankind with this blog. I will continue...
  • […] post 200 Blog Posts – Everything You Need to Know (To Start) is just that. Here I review the topics I’ve discussed in the preceding 100 posts, including the […]

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  • […] Of course, it’s also worth mentioning that brain structure differs delectably by race, as previously discussed: […]

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  • The late Marxist historian Eugene Genovese was often accused of writing too favorably about the antebellum South:

    http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/148550

    More broadly, Mr. Genovese was accused of playing down the truth that slavery, by definition, demonstrates the cruelest kind of racism. Mr. Genovese repeatedly felt compelled to assert that his books were not an apology for slavery. In subsequent books, Mr. Genovese praised intellectual life in the antebellum South, particularly its tradition of cooperative conservatism, which he saw as kinder than capitalism in the North. He cited statistics showing Southern whites, even those from disadvantaged families, were more apt to go to college than Northern whites. He argued Southerners preferred broader ownership on property and more constraints on the marketplace.

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1995/oct/05/southern-comfort/

    The easiest way to approach Eugene D. Genovese’s fascinating recent work on Southern conservatism is to compare the two lost causes that he has long admired. For in his view the slaveholders’ ideology, theology, and political theory, which culminated in the Southern Confederacy of 1861–1865, and the Marxist-Leninist ideology, which culminated in the Soviet Union and Maoist China, represented the only serious challenges in modern history to the domination of bourgeois values and finance capitalism. “The fall of the Confederacy,” Genovese points out, “drowned the hopes of southern conservatives for the construction of a viable noncapitalist social order, much as the disintegration of the Soviet Union—all pretenses and wishful thinking aside—has drowned the hopes of socialists.”

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  • […] For Hit Coffee readers going back to the Age of Half Sigma – as well as anyone who isn’t HBD-averse – you might find this (in which Jayman introduces himself to the people of Unz) a treasure trove of interesting stuff. […]

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  • “A Fastidious Connoisseur of Empiricism” is such a word sandwich and hardly arrogant enough. Get that changed to Magna est Veritas et Praevalebit or something similar.

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  • […] is filled with heaps of rubbish (rubbish which I’ve covered here extensively – see 200 Blog Posts – Everything You Need to Know (To Start)), the space of dissenting voices on this matter is also filled with its own share of rubbish – […]

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  • […] Environmental Hereditarianism, and The Son Becomes The Father; recapped in my 200th post, section Heredity and behavioral genetics]. As such, the question then becomes how did these different strains of people end up where they […]

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  • The damage done by immigration is ultimately a million times worse that what a few crazies do. The Roofs of the world are a statistical inevitability, there are always a few loony losers who attach to some ideology or another (this week the Confederacy, next week Jihad, the week after New Atheist terrorist, etc). Its tragic, buts its a rounding error that doesn’t matter in the big picture.

    By contrast future generations are going to curse our anti-racism as a crime against humanity that screwed the human race at a fundamental level.

    Ultimately only the racist high IQ societies (like Japan) will survive. The rest will turn into South America (or whatever the Muslim refugee equivalent is in Europe).

    I have no doubt that general acceptance of HBD would lead to bad outcomes, its just that the long term outcomes of HBD denial are 1,000x worth and are un-repairable. In fact the tragedies people seek to avoid by denying HBD are likely to happen and be even worse in the future. You have more humane options when NAMs are a minority. When NAMs are a majority you have fewer good options.

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  • @Anonymous
    JayMan,

    First time commenting on your blog. This was a fascinating introduction (for me) into the world of HBD, reading into the rest of what you have provided here.

    Thank you! I’m glad it’s of use to you.

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  • JayMan,

    First time commenting on your blog. This was a fascinating introduction (for me) into the world of HBD, reading into the rest of what you have provided here.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    Thank you! I'm glad it's of use to you.
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  • […] Previously: 200 Blog Posts – Everything You Need to Know (To Start): Essential human categories: race and sex. […]

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  • […] also updated my post: 200 Blog Posts – Everything You Need to Know (To Start) to incorporate the latest study on racial differences in brain surface […]

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  • […] 200 Blog Posts – Everything You Need to Know (To Start) and The Rise of Universalism and National Prosperity – jayman’s been on a roll lately! (^_^) each of these warrants your close attention! […]

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  • […] we’ve previously seen, national wealth exists in a curvilinear relationship with national IQ. There’s a massive […]

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  • Came here via Disenchanted Scholar. Excellent work. Look forward to more.

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  • […] (See the 200 Blog Posts – Everything You Need to Know (To Start): section Intraracial group variation and H…) […]

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  • Reblogged this on Philosophies of a Disenchanted Scholar and commented:
    Great resource!

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @SoCal Philosopher
    @JayMan:
    Thanks for your response. The thing is, this stuff is already true, and there's already a lot of evidence for it, but it's also hardly sayable, at least in academia and in public (presumably also not in business, in sports, etc.). I agree that a fair number of people will discover this stuff, but I'm just skeptical about it becoming "commonly" known.

    Again, thanks for this post -- I'm going to explore the links and get up to speed on this in my free time.

    Indeed the disconnect between what real live people see with their own eyes daily and what the Elite and the MSM tell them they see (or should see) is evidenced by the media’s and the Elites’ reaction to what Trump said about illegal immigrants from south of the border contrasted with what real people are saying (“Well, he said it like the bull in a China shop that he is, but he’s RIGHT”).

    I live in California and was once a stupid liberal. Most of my friends still vote for Dems and consider themselves “open-minded” and liberal but hate the POTUS’ and the Elites’ support for open borders and in private say, “I don’t care if they get married, I just wish gays would shut up enough already… I’m sick of their whining and in-your-face bitching every day” –and this from two of them with lesbian nieces.

    My point distilled: What we see conflicts with what TPTB say we see and the whole thing is building to a point at which that disconnect is going to explode. Just don’t know when.

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  • @SoCal Philosopher
    @JayMan:
    Thanks for your response. The thing is, this stuff is already true, and there's already a lot of evidence for it, but it's also hardly sayable, at least in academia and in public (presumably also not in business, in sports, etc.). I agree that a fair number of people will discover this stuff, but I'm just skeptical about it becoming "commonly" known.

    Again, thanks for this post -- I'm going to explore the links and get up to speed on this in my free time.

    @SoCal Philospher:

    Well string theory is not commonly known, either, if you’re feeling me.

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  • :
    Thanks for your response. The thing is, this stuff is already true, and there’s already a lot of evidence for it, but it’s also hardly sayable, at least in academia and in public (presumably also not in business, in sports, etc.). I agree that a fair number of people will discover this stuff, but I’m just skeptical about it becoming “commonly” known.

    Again, thanks for this post — I’m going to explore the links and get up to speed on this in my free time.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @SoCal Philospher:

    Well string theory is not commonly known, either, if you're feeling me.

    , @Anonymous
    Indeed the disconnect between what real live people see with their own eyes daily and what the Elite and the MSM tell them they see (or should see) is evidenced by the media's and the Elites' reaction to what Trump said about illegal immigrants from south of the border contrasted with what real people are saying ("Well, he said it like the bull in a China shop that he is, but he's RIGHT").

    I live in California and was once a stupid liberal. Most of my friends still vote for Dems and consider themselves "open-minded" and liberal but hate the POTUS' and the Elites' support for open borders and in private say, "I don't care if they get married, I just wish gays would shut up enough already... I'm sick of their whining and in-your-face bitching every day" --and this from two of them with lesbian nieces.

    My point distilled: What we see conflicts with what TPTB say we see and the whole thing is building to a point at which that disconnect is going to explode. Just don't know when.

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  • @SoCal Philosopher
    JayMan, thanks for the post. Have you explained somewhere why you believe that "Debates about the merits of allowing it [i.e., knowledge of heritable group differences] to be commonly known are ultimately about timing – debating the when, not if"? I.e., why do you believe that eventually heritable group differences will become a matter of common knowledge?

    @SoCal Philosper:

    What’s true is still true regardless of what the talking classes want people to think. People will keep discovering and rediscovering this stuff because it’s there.

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  • JayMan, thanks for the post. Have you explained somewhere why you believe that “Debates about the merits of allowing it [i.e., knowledge of heritable group differences] to be commonly known are ultimately about timing – debating the when, not if”? I.e., why do you believe that eventually heritable group differences will become a matter of common knowledge?

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @SoCal Philosper:

    What's true is still true regardless of what the talking classes want people to think. People will keep discovering and rediscovering this stuff because it's there.

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  • […] in innate altruistic behavioral traits between european populations. etc., etc. as jayman said in his most recent post: “Differences between human groups are fined-grained because evolution acts […]

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  • @Anonymous
    Jayman, at what population correspond the very low brainsize zone in east Africa on the brainsize chart ?

    @Theodore Bagwell:

    Apparently, they are the Efe and the Batwa, Pygmy groups.

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  • @Anonymous
    jayman will you post more often in the future ???

    @Adaulphe itlerres:

    That’s the hope. We’ll see. :)

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  • jayman will you post more often in the future ???

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @Adaulphe itlerres:

    That's the hope. We'll see. :)

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  • Jayman, at what population correspond the very low brainsize zone in east Africa on the brainsize chart ?

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @Theodore Bagwell:

    Apparently, they are the Efe and the Batwa, Pygmy groups.

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  • […] JayMan (a member of the HBD 23) achieved his 200th blog post yesterday. In honor of the occasion, I will post commenter Lion of the Judah-Sphere’s strong praise for […]

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  • Given that lactose map, I wonder if Australia is now (or soon will be) the most English country in the world. Or English plus a founder effect. It will be interesting to see if this will show in the level of corruption. My guess is it will.

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  • @Dr James Thompson
    Congratulations on your 200th post birthday

    @James Thompson:

    Thank you!

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  • Congratulations on your 200th post birthday

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @James Thompson:

    Thank you!

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  • @Luke Lea
    On the "only" two sexes: how do you deal with XXY's and very mannish-looking lesbians (so-called "bull dikes")?

    It’s childish to point to some 1% or 0.1% incidence exception to a rule and use it to somehow debunk the rule. This isn’t mathematics or physics.

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  • Ethics is always a tricky business. It’s never terribly pleasant saying negative things about people, even if they are true. I think there needs to be some balance, at least; if I’m willing to say negative things about people, I should at least endeavor to say some positive things about them. Clannishness, for example, has its good side (yes!) Many clannish people are warm and loving toward most people they encounter, having lived all their lives in a society where they are cocooned by the presence of near kin/being adapted to such an environment. Many non-clannish people are rather cold and distant by comparison. Many traits have trade-offs; violence and friendliness appear to be trade-offs. A friend of mine lives in South Africa and describes it as the friendliest country he’s ever lived in (and he’s lived in several). Australia, by contrast, was unfriendly and unpleasant.

    As someone who tends toward pessimism, I try to remind myself of this; every society has its good points, at least from the POV of the people involved.

    Personally, I’m hoping you make some more posts on the American nations, soon.

    Looks like your kid is growing happy and healthy. :)

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  • @Luke Lea
    On the "only" two sexes: how do you deal with XXY's and very mannish-looking lesbians (so-called "bull dikes")?

    I did say the sexes weren’t completely discrete (only very nearly so), and there are very rare cases of individuals who don’t fit either category.

    Even the manliest looking woman is typically completely biologically female.

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  • On the “only” two sexes: how do you deal with XXY’s and very mannish-looking lesbians (so-called “bull dikes”)?

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @Luke Lea:

    I did say the sexes weren't completely discrete (only very nearly so), and there are very rare cases of individuals who don't fit either category.

    Even the manliest looking woman is typically completely biologically female.

    , @Polynices
    It's childish to point to some 1% or 0.1% incidence exception to a rule and use it to somehow debunk the rule. This isn't mathematics or physics.
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  • Beautiful post, very profound to say the least. I liked how you tied in current events with the scientific facts. I’m gonna write a more cogent response later.

    I’m interested in the research you cite saying there’s no correlation between IQ and attractiveness. A bit surprising, to be honest. Anything else regarding that?

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  • Last month, neuroscientist Dario Maestripieri committed a faux pas after visiting a conference of his fellow neuroscientists. On his Facebook page, he left the following statement about his female colleagues: An uproar over this ensued. Despite the furor, Meastripieri's comment actually sounds like a fairly sound empirical observation. Nonetheless, his comments have not sit well...
  • @sirtyrionlannister
    No relationship between intelligence and facial attractiveness in a large, genetically informative sample:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090513814001512

    Yup, I saw that.

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  • No relationship between intelligence and facial attractiveness in a large, genetically informative sample:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090513814001512

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    Yup, I saw that.
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  • @Carrie
    I think this post completely misses the reason why what the dude said was offensive. He doesn't comment on the men! Whilst it would still be in pretty poor taste to say that the men were attractive/ unattractive too, it means that he is at least making a balanced observation.
    By his comment, he alienates half the room and singles them out for scrutiny, over something that shouldn't be relevant in that situation (you mention he is an attractiveness researcher, but my first point still stands: why not comment on the men too?).
    To be completely anecdotal, I'm at a highly ranked UK university, and in my science degree are plenty of attractive men and women. I also know several rather attractive women who study neuroscience! (and no unattractive ones) I feel like one man's poorly worded comment shouldn't form the basis of an argument to say no particularly attractive women study science.

    Why is it that when people are critical of discussions such as these, statistical reasoning goes right out the window?

    Just as you are sharing an anecdote, he is doing the same. He’s sharing his observations about the apparent dearth of attractive women in his field that he encountered. I would hope that it would be understood that his inferences are limited in scope and are to be taken as such. He certainly wasn’t asserting that no attractive women study neuroscience, and it’s clear that there must be some. But, perhaps the average attractiveness of women in the field is lower. It’s hard without getting some sort of reliable metric. That’s all. And that’s all this should be taken as.

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  • I think this post completely misses the reason why what the dude said was offensive. He doesn’t comment on the men! Whilst it would still be in pretty poor taste to say that the men were attractive/ unattractive too, it means that he is at least making a balanced observation.
    By his comment, he alienates half the room and singles them out for scrutiny, over something that shouldn’t be relevant in that situation (you mention he is an attractiveness researcher, but my first point still stands: why not comment on the men too?).
    To be completely anecdotal, I’m at a highly ranked UK university, and in my science degree are plenty of attractive men and women. I also know several rather attractive women who study neuroscience! (and no unattractive ones) I feel like one man’s poorly worded comment shouldn’t form the basis of an argument to say no particularly attractive women study science.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    @Carrie:

    Why is it that when people are critical of discussions such as these, statistical reasoning goes right out the window?

    Just as you are sharing an anecdote, he is doing the same. He's sharing his observations about the apparent dearth of attractive women in his field that he encountered. I would hope that it would be understood that his inferences are limited in scope and are to be taken as such. He certainly wasn't asserting that no attractive women study neuroscience, and it's clear that there must be some. But, perhaps the average attractiveness of women in the field is lower. It's hard without getting some sort of reliable metric. That's all. And that's all this should be taken as.

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  • Greg Cochran and Henry Harpending have recently proposed a hypothesis on their blog that posits that the lower average IQ of tropical peoples may be related to the number of fitness reducing mutations these people carry. Apparently, the rate of mutation is higher in the tropics. The majority of mutations that occur are neutral and...
  • Why don’t the multitude of very beautiful animals in Africa and birds across the tropics generally show the visual results of this differential genetic load you are talking about?

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  • Last month, neuroscientist Dario Maestripieri committed a faux pas after visiting a conference of his fellow neuroscientists. On his Facebook page, he left the following statement about his female colleagues: An uproar over this ensued. Despite the furor, Meastripieri's comment actually sounds like a fairly sound empirical observation. Nonetheless, his comments have not sit well...
  • Ekstra fotki, w sierpniu snieg dzieki Mont Blanc a we wrzesniu w tatrach.

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  • Greg Cochran and Henry Harpending have recently proposed a hypothesis on their blog that posits that the lower average IQ of tropical peoples may be related to the number of fitness reducing mutations these people carry. Apparently, the rate of mutation is higher in the tropics. The majority of mutations that occur are neutral and...
  • As far as genetic load and “race”, uhm…white and black Americans carry about the same amount of genetic load…

    http://dienekes.blogspot.tw/2013/05/deleterious-mutational-load-and-recent.html

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    @Jayman

    Why is there a connection between attractiveness and IQ? Or, as the question should be, why the connection between unattractiveness and lower IQ? In his attempt to explain the lower average attractiveness of Black women, Kanazawa touched on one reason I believe is behind this link.

    That is genetic load.

    Wasn’t there some data that showed that:
    The lower the IQ of a white woman the more attracted to a black man she is?

    Do you know of such study?

    Why would a lower IQ white women be not attracted to a lower IQ white men? Why the sudden shift in racial preferences the lower the IQ?

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  • Last month, neuroscientist Dario Maestripieri committed a faux pas after visiting a conference of his fellow neuroscientists. On his Facebook page, he left the following statement about his female colleagues: An uproar over this ensued. Despite the furor, Meastripieri's comment actually sounds like a fairly sound empirical observation. Nonetheless, his comments have not sit well...
  • @EvolutionistX
    You know, I was recently thinking about the numbers of attractive and unattractive people I know (inspired by people who claimed not to know any unattractive people, which seemed ludicrous to me because I know many,) and while I can count several young women (and men) whom society would find very unattractive--1s, 2s, and 3s, to be crude--among my friends, I can't think of any who are genuine 9s or 10s. Perhaps the media has distorted my idea of what 10s look like, but the other possibility is that my friend group, which consists largely of extremely intelligent, nerdy people, is biased toward the less attractive. No neuroscientists, but some astrophysicists and math PhDs and the like.

    So I'd say that my experience mirrors Maestripieri's; plenty of average and nice looking folks in science, but also plenty of unattractive ones, and few very attractive ones. But the very unattractive ones, I am certain because of my own experiences with them, do not put a bunch of pictures of themselves on the internet.

    I had meant to add that while it may genuinely be that in the past, neuroscience was a more masculine field, and so women who were themselves more masculine may have entered it in greater numbers than women who were not, there is probably also a straightforward age effect that people become less self-conscious about their appearances as they age. An ugly 20 yr old may feel that posting their picture on the internet is not in their interest, but at 50, they’re unlikely to care anymore. No one’s considered very attractive at 50, after all.

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  • You know, I was recently thinking about the numbers of attractive and unattractive people I know (inspired by people who claimed not to know any unattractive people, which seemed ludicrous to me because I know many,) and while I can count several young women (and men) whom society would find very unattractive–1s, 2s, and 3s, to be crude–among my friends, I can’t think of any who are genuine 9s or 10s. Perhaps the media has distorted my idea of what 10s look like, but the other possibility is that my friend group, which consists largely of extremely intelligent, nerdy people, is biased toward the less attractive. No neuroscientists, but some astrophysicists and math PhDs and the like.

    So I’d say that my experience mirrors Maestripieri’s; plenty of average and nice looking folks in science, but also plenty of unattractive ones, and few very attractive ones. But the very unattractive ones, I am certain because of my own experiences with them, do not put a bunch of pictures of themselves on the internet.

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    • Replies: @EvolutionistX
    I had meant to add that while it may genuinely be that in the past, neuroscience was a more masculine field, and so women who were themselves more masculine may have entered it in greater numbers than women who were not, there is probably also a straightforward age effect that people become less self-conscious about their appearances as they age. An ugly 20 yr old may feel that posting their picture on the internet is not in their interest, but at 50, they're unlikely to care anymore. No one's considered very attractive at 50, after all.
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  • Greg Cochran and Henry Harpending have recently proposed a hypothesis on their blog that posits that the lower average IQ of tropical peoples may be related to the number of fitness reducing mutations these people carry. Apparently, the rate of mutation is higher in the tropics. The majority of mutations that occur are neutral and...
  • [...] fitness deficits in a wide variety of systems. We see this with physical attractiveness, as there is a positive relationship between IQ and attractiveness. We also see this between IQ and height, as taller people are more intelligent on average. Indeed, [...]

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  • Last month, neuroscientist Dario Maestripieri committed a faux pas after visiting a conference of his fellow neuroscientists. On his Facebook page, he left the following statement about his female colleagues: An uproar over this ensued. Despite the furor, Meastripieri's comment actually sounds like a fairly sound empirical observation. Nonetheless, his comments have not sit well...
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Most people, including the commenters here at this site, are neither particularly beautiful NOR downright unattractive. We take up the middle spaces of “moderately attractive” “ok looking” and “average”.

    All the women in the above pictures fall in that space. I don’t see any downright uglies (adjusted for age) nor do I see any drop dead gorgeous babes.

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  • [...] The Leaks in the Pipeline Found? Beauty and brains: not always together? [...]

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  • Greg Cochran and Henry Harpending have recently proposed a hypothesis on their blog that posits that the lower average IQ of tropical peoples may be related to the number of fitness reducing mutations these people carry. Apparently, the rate of mutation is higher in the tropics. The majority of mutations that occur are neutral and...
  • @DragonHorsee
    Mongolian kids also often have brown hair as children: http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4059/4311355897_f0d063a9db.jpg

    In my experience, Japanese kids are not this light, but lighter than Chinese in hair and eyes (on average).

    You can see two Japanese girls here in an earthquake drill, the one of the left is a common "brown haired" child, the one of the right a "black haired", but in my experience, before the kids are even 12, there hair is almost always black. Many Japanese have told me that brown haired boys are considered weak or sickly...

    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42039000/jpg/_42039184_kids_afp416.jpg

    Thanks! I’m working on digging deeper into this.

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  • Mongolian kids also often have brown hair as children:
    In my experience, Japanese kids are not this light, but lighter than Chinese in hair and eyes (on average).

    You can see two Japanese girls here in an earthquake drill, the one of the left is a common “brown haired” child, the one of the right a “black haired”, but in my experience, before the kids are even 12, there hair is almost always black. Many Japanese have told me that brown haired boys are considered weak or sickly…

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    Thanks! I'm working on digging deeper into this.
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  • Japanese kids do often have brown hair, a lot of them, but I have rarely seen a Chinese kid with brown hair, and I have not lived in Korea so cannot comment. I have lived in Shanghai, Tokyo, and Taiwan. A lot of brown haired kids in Tokyo, and Japanese are more likely to have light brown eyes than chinese, which tend to have dark brown (black) eyes almost uniformly. In my opinion, based on staying in Tokyo for over a year, Japanese are slightly lighter pigmented than Koreans or Chinese, and on Mainland Asia, from Korea down to Malaysia, people get darker the further South you go…somewhat…I think Cambodians are pretty dark, darker than Malays, but generally what I said is true. I’ve also spent some time in singapore and seen a lot of Filipinos, Malays, people of southern Chinese ancestry (Fujian, Guangdong), etc.

    As far as evidence for Japanese hair color -

    I’m not sure the percentage, but my observations are 30-40% of Japanese kids under 6 have brown hair. It’s not a fixed trait by anymeans, my ex, has two sisters. One had brown hair as a child, but the other to had black hair, but neither have hair as black as mine. Two of the sisters have light brown eyes (like their father), whereas one siste has “black eyes’ like her mother. They are both from Nagano…so central Honshu, not an Ainu area or an area known for heavy immigration historically. Their face features look more Koreans than anything else (very flat faces, small eyes, single lid, a bit taller than average Japanese, almost Central Euro average height).

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  • Last month, neuroscientist Dario Maestripieri committed a faux pas after visiting a conference of his fellow neuroscientists. On his Facebook page, he left the following statement about his female colleagues: An uproar over this ensued. Despite the furor, Meastripieri's comment actually sounds like a fairly sound empirical observation. Nonetheless, his comments have not sit well...
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @asdf
    Attractive women can get men to do things for them, so they don't need to accomplish things. Ugly women have to accomplish things because men won't do things for them. Thus most "accomplished" women are ugly. This of course excludes accomplishments that are tied up with attractiveness (such as acting, sales, or business generally to a lesser degree).

    Yes, but…. I still think attractiveness, as we’ve been trained to perceive it, is often attained by the expense, time, and effort put into superficial things such as fashion and cosmetics. Serious people focused on attaining a higher level of math and science probably tend not to be interested in wasting time and money on the superficial. It detracts from the goal at hand. Not to mention that looking too much like a Ken or a Barbie will only make it that much more difficult to be taken seriously by peers. Wisely, serious people pay attention to good healthy grooming, but it stops there.

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  • Highly intelligent women, particularly those who are good at math, tend to be slightly more ‘mannish’.

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  • Being successful in science primarily requires being right, which requires being smart and conscientious. Being successful in business primarily requires being convincing, for which being attractive is as important as being smart.

    So I would expect a truly random sample of “very successful” scientists, male or female, to be less attractive than a truly random sample of “very successful” businesspeople, though with the men, the difference will be less in still pictures, as charisma doesn’t always show in still photos.

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  • If this pattern is indeed real, then why is this so? There are only two fundamental explanations: either women entering the field are more attractive than they once were (a cohort effect) or women remaining in the field (or achieve some level of prominence) tend to be those who are significantly less attractive.

    Very interesting question. One of the things that has consistently struck me about medicine is that contrary to aged stereotypes, most women in medical school these days are pretty darn attractive. I theorize that this is because most of them come from well-to-do families (often daddy was a doctor who married a beauty), and because these women have the drive and energy to keep themselves in shape. I don’t know why these rules wouldn’t hold in neuroscience as well.

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  • @asdf
    Attractive women can get men to do things for them, so they don't need to accomplish things. Ugly women have to accomplish things because men won't do things for them. Thus most "accomplished" women are ugly. This of course excludes accomplishments that are tied up with attractiveness (such as acting, sales, or business generally to a lesser degree).

    I think you’re pretty much right on the money.

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  • Attractive women can get men to do things for them, so they don’t need to accomplish things. Ugly women have to accomplish things because men won’t do things for them. Thus most “accomplished” women are ugly. This of course excludes accomplishments that are tied up with attractiveness (such as acting, sales, or business generally to a lesser degree).

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    I think you're pretty much right on the money.
    , @Anonymous
    Yes, but.... I still think attractiveness, as we've been trained to perceive it, is often attained by the expense, time, and effort put into superficial things such as fashion and cosmetics. Serious people focused on attaining a higher level of math and science probably tend not to be interested in wasting time and money on the superficial. It detracts from the goal at hand. Not to mention that looking too much like a Ken or a Barbie will only make it that much more difficult to be taken seriously by peers. Wisely, serious people pay attention to good healthy grooming, but it stops there.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Well, I agree that the question Maestripieri raises is a legit topic of research.

    Business people in general seem more extraverted and sensation seeking. This could be part of it, they may look a little more exciting and possibly easier than science women. From an evolutionary perspective a fairly intelligent woman who is accessible may be a good choice.

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  • @Staffan
    It seems the picture quality is better for business women, several look like studio shots with professional lighting. They also appear to be younger on the average. And the black business women you excluded are no Halle Berrys either. No sell ; )

    Hey, you gotta take it for what it’s worth, man. :) My main goals were to highlight the gaps in our knowledge and to defend Maestripieri, not to be the definitive word on the topic, which I don’t quite have the data to do…

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  • He’s lucky he didn’t say it when the lass in fourth row second from right was not in jail.

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  • It seems the picture quality is better for business women, several look like studio shots with professional lighting. They also appear to be younger on the average. And the black business women you excluded are no Halle Berrys either. No sell ; )

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan
    Hey, you gotta take it for what it's worth, man. :) My main goals were to highlight the gaps in our knowledge and to defend Maestripieri, not to be the definitive word on the topic, which I don't quite have the data to do...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    Attractiveness of google image search could be influenced by selection bias; more attractive women might be more likely to put their pictures online, and other neuroscientists might be more likely to link to the pictures of attractive women in the field, boosting their google search priority.

    Yup, this is far from the least crude project, I fully admit.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Attractiveness of google image search could be influenced by selection bias; more attractive women might be more likely to put their pictures online, and other neuroscientists might be more likely to link to the pictures of attractive women in the field, boosting their google search priority.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan
    Yup, this is far from the least crude project, I fully admit.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Greg Cochran and Henry Harpending have recently proposed a hypothesis on their blog that posits that the lower average IQ of tropical peoples may be related to the number of fitness reducing mutations these people carry. Apparently, the rate of mutation is higher in the tropics. The majority of mutations that occur are neutral and...
  • [...] believe that this can likely be explained by genetic load. Attractiveness may signify that an individual possesses a low level of genetic load, (which [...]

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • [...] blog post about the physical attractiveness of Black women—which landed him in so much hot water (more on that soon). Wave 3 of the study however included a DNA sample of the participants. From this, the [...]

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  • @redzengenoist
    I believe that Jaymans contention with you lies in your lack of citation for your claims (equal to your accusation of Jayman), rather than your over-delivery of "truth", synaptic.

    Also, please do a google image search for "asian infant brown hair". Your claim that no East Asians have lighter hair in infancy than adulthood, as is the case in every other brown-haired primate, is unsubstantiated.

    For example, this:

    “Actually, that is not true. There’s no metamorphosis that occurs in Japanese children’s hair as is the case with blonds and red heads. “

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @redzengenoist
    I believe that Jaymans contention with you lies in your lack of citation for your claims (equal to your accusation of Jayman), rather than your over-delivery of "truth", synaptic.

    Also, please do a google image search for "asian infant brown hair". Your claim that no East Asians have lighter hair in infancy than adulthood, as is the case in every other brown-haired primate, is unsubstantiated.

    What exactly do you feel that you are lacking in? I am curious.

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  • @redzengenoist
    I believe that Jaymans contention with you lies in your lack of citation for your claims (equal to your accusation of Jayman), rather than your over-delivery of "truth", synaptic.

    Also, please do a google image search for "asian infant brown hair". Your claim that no East Asians have lighter hair in infancy than adulthood, as is the case in every other brown-haired primate, is unsubstantiated.

    redzen:

    [Jayman: You were warned. Goodbye!]

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  • @synapticcohesion
    Go ahead. That comment was directed at mainly you anyway. If you can't handle the truth from outside observers, then make your blog private.

    I believe that Jaymans contention with you lies in your lack of citation for your claims (equal to your accusation of Jayman), rather than your over-delivery of “truth”, synaptic.

    Also, please do a google image search for “asian infant brown hair”. Your claim that no East Asians have lighter hair in infancy than adulthood, as is the case in every other brown-haired primate, is unsubstantiated.

    Read More
    • Replies: @synapticcohesion
    redzen:

    [Jayman: You were warned. Goodbye!]

    , @synapticcohesion
    What exactly do you feel that you are lacking in? I am curious.
    , @redzengenoist
    For example, this:

    "Actually, that is not true. There’s no metamorphosis that occurs in Japanese children’s hair as is the case with blonds and red heads. "

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @synapticcohesion
    Go ahead. That comment was directed at mainly you anyway. If you can't handle the truth from outside observers, then make your blog private.

    I might be able to get a start if you presented any truth for me to handle…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Go ahead. That comment was directed at mainly you anyway. If you can’t handle the truth from outside observers, then make your blog private.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan
    I might be able to get a start if you presented any truth for me to handle...
    , @redzengenoist
    I believe that Jaymans contention with you lies in your lack of citation for your claims (equal to your accusation of Jayman), rather than your over-delivery of "truth", synaptic.

    Also, please do a google image search for "asian infant brown hair". Your claim that no East Asians have lighter hair in infancy than adulthood, as is the case in every other brown-haired primate, is unsubstantiated.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Matt_
    but those brains cost just as much per cubic centimeter.

    Why must they? It is probably not that hard to change the number of folds in the brain, or to change brain glucose use, or to change matter density... I'll admit perhaps it is harder than to simply prolong size growth though.

    This is likely because, as compared to Europeans, Africans tend to be more masculine overall, while East Asians tend to be more feminine. The greater masculinity of African male faces may have rendered them more attractive despite their higher overall genetic load (with the exact opposite likely being true for East Asian males—whose faces probably weren’t ugly per se, just too feminine).

    Interestingly, the relationship between masculinity and attractiveness is inconsistent in males - I think health indicators tend to generally work better in most facial studies I have seen.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0013585

    "Here, we used geometric morphometric techniques to assess facial masculinity, generating a morphological masculinity measure based on a discriminant function that correctly classified >96% faces as male or female. When assessed using this measure, there was no relationship between morphological masculinity and rated attractiveness. In contrast, skin colour – a fluctuating, condition-dependent cue – was a significant predictor of attractiveness."

    Of course, perceived masculinity in face shapes, as distinguished from masculinity derived from shape dimorphism or by comparing adult men with children, may be more related to attractiveness than the dimorphism related measure above.

    http://www.faceresearch.org/feedback/techniques - e.g. see here.

    It seems what is seen as masculine seems a little different from what men are when contrasted to women, or men when contrasted to kids.

    Perhaps African men have more (and Asian men less) of this "perceived masculinity" measure... That would make sense, since they are perceived as more masculine, but presumably would (evolutionarily) want to avoid the consequences of having androgenised women and unhealthily overandrogenised men (while East Asians would evolutionarily want to avoid having estrogenised men and over-estrogenised women), both of which would hit fertility and reproduction heavily.

    One other problem with the East Asians as having better genes and femininity would be that you would expect East Asian women to double dip and get a boost from both, and that East Asian men would lag less than African women... But I do not think this is actually the case.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0035917

    Also, as a note Africans seem more neotenous in terms of face shape than Europeans...

    "Main craniofacial changes indicate that Europeans differ from Southern Africans by increasing facial developmental rates and extending the attainment of adult size and shape. Since other studies have suggested that native subsaharan populations attain adulthood earlier than Europeans, it is probable that facial ontogeny is linked with other developmental mechanisms that control the timing of maturation in other variables. Southern Africans appear as retaining young features in adulthood."

    The state of research into facial attractiveness appears to be in its infancy. I expect that a lot more discoveries will be made in this area.

    As for the much contentious racial gradient in attractiveness, it seems that the Lewis study is in need of replication, with larger samples in different countries.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Matt_
    but those brains cost just as much per cubic centimeter.

    Why must they? It is probably not that hard to change the number of folds in the brain, or to change brain glucose use, or to change matter density... I'll admit perhaps it is harder than to simply prolong size growth though.

    This is likely because, as compared to Europeans, Africans tend to be more masculine overall, while East Asians tend to be more feminine. The greater masculinity of African male faces may have rendered them more attractive despite their higher overall genetic load (with the exact opposite likely being true for East Asian males—whose faces probably weren’t ugly per se, just too feminine).

    Interestingly, the relationship between masculinity and attractiveness is inconsistent in males - I think health indicators tend to generally work better in most facial studies I have seen.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0013585

    "Here, we used geometric morphometric techniques to assess facial masculinity, generating a morphological masculinity measure based on a discriminant function that correctly classified >96% faces as male or female. When assessed using this measure, there was no relationship between morphological masculinity and rated attractiveness. In contrast, skin colour – a fluctuating, condition-dependent cue – was a significant predictor of attractiveness."

    Of course, perceived masculinity in face shapes, as distinguished from masculinity derived from shape dimorphism or by comparing adult men with children, may be more related to attractiveness than the dimorphism related measure above.

    http://www.faceresearch.org/feedback/techniques - e.g. see here.

    It seems what is seen as masculine seems a little different from what men are when contrasted to women, or men when contrasted to kids.

    Perhaps African men have more (and Asian men less) of this "perceived masculinity" measure... That would make sense, since they are perceived as more masculine, but presumably would (evolutionarily) want to avoid the consequences of having androgenised women and unhealthily overandrogenised men (while East Asians would evolutionarily want to avoid having estrogenised men and over-estrogenised women), both of which would hit fertility and reproduction heavily.

    One other problem with the East Asians as having better genes and femininity would be that you would expect East Asian women to double dip and get a boost from both, and that East Asian men would lag less than African women... But I do not think this is actually the case.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0035917

    Also, as a note Africans seem more neotenous in terms of face shape than Europeans...

    "Main craniofacial changes indicate that Europeans differ from Southern Africans by increasing facial developmental rates and extending the attainment of adult size and shape. Since other studies have suggested that native subsaharan populations attain adulthood earlier than Europeans, it is probable that facial ontogeny is linked with other developmental mechanisms that control the timing of maturation in other variables. Southern Africans appear as retaining young features in adulthood."

    [Jayman: You make one more substanceless and derogatory comment and you will banned]

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  • @Tregon
    synapticcohesion says:

    This is pathetic. Pseudoscience really gets on my nerves.

    JayMan responds:

    Wow could you even have read this that fast? I haven’t even closed the editing box…

    This is as far as SC needed to read:

    "Greg Cochran and Henry Harpending have recently proposed a hypothesis on their blog that posits that the lower average IQ of tropical peoples--"

    Then an alarm went off and SC's crime-think module kicked in.

    but those brains cost just as much per cubic centimeter.

    Why must they? It is probably not that hard to change the number of folds in the brain, or to change brain glucose use, or to change matter density… I’ll admit perhaps it is harder than to simply prolong size growth though.

    This is likely because, as compared to Europeans, Africans tend to be more masculine overall, while East Asians tend to be more feminine. The greater masculinity of African male faces may have rendered them more attractive despite their higher overall genetic load (with the exact opposite likely being true for East Asian males—whose faces probably weren’t ugly per se, just too feminine).

    Interestingly, the relationship between masculinity and attractiveness is inconsistent in males – I think health indicators tend to generally work better in most facial studies I have seen.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0013585

    “Here, we used geometric morphometric techniques to assess facial masculinity, generating a morphological masculinity measure based on a discriminant function that correctly classified >96% faces as male or female. When assessed using this measure, there was no relationship between morphological masculinity and rated attractiveness. In contrast, skin colour – a fluctuating, condition-dependent cue – was a significant predictor of attractiveness.”

    Of course, perceived masculinity in face shapes, as distinguished from masculinity derived from shape dimorphism or by comparing adult men with children, may be more related to attractiveness than the dimorphism related measure above.

    http://www.faceresearch.org/feedback/techniques – e.g. see here.

    It seems what is seen as masculine seems a little different from what men are when contrasted to women, or men when contrasted to kids.

    Perhaps African men have more (and Asian men less) of this “perceived masculinity” measure… That would make sense, since they are perceived as more masculine, but presumably would (evolutionarily) want to avoid the consequences of having androgenised women and unhealthily overandrogenised men (while East Asians would evolutionarily want to avoid having estrogenised men and over-estrogenised women), both of which would hit fertility and reproduction heavily.

    One other problem with the East Asians as having better genes and femininity would be that you would expect East Asian women to double dip and get a boost from both, and that East Asian men would lag less than African women… But I do not think this is actually the case.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0035917

    Also, as a note Africans seem more neotenous in terms of face shape than Europeans…

    “Main craniofacial changes indicate that Europeans differ from Southern Africans by increasing facial developmental rates and extending the attainment of adult size and shape. Since other studies have suggested that native subsaharan populations attain adulthood earlier than Europeans, it is probable that facial ontogeny is linked with other developmental mechanisms that control the timing of maturation in other variables. Southern Africans appear as retaining young features in adulthood.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @synapticcohesion
    [Jayman: You make one more substanceless and derogatory comment and you will banned]
    , @JayMan
    The state of research into facial attractiveness appears to be in its infancy. I expect that a lot more discoveries will be made in this area.

    As for the much contentious racial gradient in attractiveness, it seems that the Lewis study is in need of replication, with larger samples in different countries.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • [...] Indeed, I think that the link between IQ and health results in good part from this process, as I discussed. Low genetic load isn’t the only component behind this link (the others being the superior [...]

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  • @JayMan

    If it was just about genetic load
     
    C&H don't claim that it is just genetic load:

    None of this implies that there are no other factors influencing the distribution of IQ, or its evolution. Strong selective pressures could keep IQ high in environment A, even if environment A had a somewhat higher mutation rate than environment B.
     

    Why aren’t there subgroups among Africans that have had high technology, high culture and arts and/or sophisticated government. And you really haven’t had that apparently at any time in history
     
    Well let's hold off a too strong form of that. We did have the Nok culture (who may have presaged the Bantu expansion), and it was sub-Saharans who invented steel.

    It seems like the extreme sophistication demonstrated by some Europeans and Asians never developed among some other groups. You would expect *some* examples of what a low load African looks like.
     
    There are some sub-Saharans with very high IQs.

    In fact, I contend that the world has plenty of examples of African individuals of low genetic load and terrific genetic health. They just don’t have the kind of genius you see in other groups, because a ‘perfect’ genome for that group simply doesn’t have certain features.
     
    I don't think that there is much contention over this point, particularly not with C&H.

    So the claim sub-saharans invented steel seems to be exaggerated.

    The Haya did discover steel independently, so they did indeed invent steel, even if they weren’t the first to do so. Haya knowledge of steel use seems to have been confined to themselves, so their use of steel had little implication for the rest of the world, but it is fascinating that a sub-Saharan people made this discovery.

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  • @JayMan

    If it was just about genetic load
     
    C&H don't claim that it is just genetic load:

    None of this implies that there are no other factors influencing the distribution of IQ, or its evolution. Strong selective pressures could keep IQ high in environment A, even if environment A had a somewhat higher mutation rate than environment B.
     

    Why aren’t there subgroups among Africans that have had high technology, high culture and arts and/or sophisticated government. And you really haven’t had that apparently at any time in history
     
    Well let's hold off a too strong form of that. We did have the Nok culture (who may have presaged the Bantu expansion), and it was sub-Saharans who invented steel.

    It seems like the extreme sophistication demonstrated by some Europeans and Asians never developed among some other groups. You would expect *some* examples of what a low load African looks like.
     
    There are some sub-Saharans with very high IQs.

    In fact, I contend that the world has plenty of examples of African individuals of low genetic load and terrific genetic health. They just don’t have the kind of genius you see in other groups, because a ‘perfect’ genome for that group simply doesn’t have certain features.
     
    I don't think that there is much contention over this point, particularly not with C&H.

    Wikipedia:
    “The earliest known production of steel is a piece of ironware excavated from an archaeological site in Anatolia (Kaman-Kalehoyuk) and is about 4,000 years old.”
    So the claim sub-saharans invented steel seems to be exaggerated.

    Otherwise, Dan’s post seems to indicate, that it is hard to grasp for some people, that a population with low average IQ may still produce quite a lot of high IQ people, and as such it is able to produce civilisational achievements.

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  • @JayMan

    The picture you selected of an East Asian female had eyelid surgery and dyed her hair brown.
     
    You sure about that?

    Japanese often dye their hair brown, because apparently when they're young, their hair is brown. That is about appearing youthful, not White.


    The reality is black males, on average, are shorter and heavier than white males and it’s been that way since slavery.
     
    As I understand, there are no height differences between Whites and (West African) Blacks.

    The reality is skin bleaching and radical racial changing surgery are big in foreign non-white countries.
     
    Skin-whitening is common, but that is because of a general preference for lighter skin across the world.

    You make a lot of claims, but I'd like to see more support to see if they are of any substance.

    And you were doing so well, synapticcohesion.

    Oh well, such is the nature of those who put ideological axioms in front of reality… :

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  • @JayMan

    There’s no metamorphosis that occurs in Japanese children’s hair as is the case with blonds and red heads. Most Japanese people’s hair would be just as dark in childhood as would be in adulthood.
     
    Ah. This was an anecdote that I've stumbled across. I haven't bothered to confirm it at all, so thanks for pointing that out.

    Such is the nature of pseudoscience. One can claim anything based on his or her own personal feelings and biases without evidence and pretend it is scientific fact. It reveals a lot about the psychology of the “pseudoscientist” in question more than anything else.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    Total BS. East Asians and black Africans are less attractive than white people regardless of gender. The people that say otherwise are either East Asian, black African, trying to be politically correct or fetishists. The picture you selected of an East Asian female had eyelid surgery and dyed her hair brown. It's always interesting when someone says how attractive East Asians are then present a picture of a surgically altered (trying to look white) East Asian. I'm sure the pictures of black men were those who had white admixture and gained white features like a narrower, higher bridge nose, narrower, longer face, more prominent eyebrow ridge and prominent chin. The media depiction of black males is so far from reality that it's laughable. If you were to watch TV only and not know what actual black males were like you would think they were atleast 6 feet tall, muscular, with deep booming voices, charming personalities, and always had the right answers. The reality is black males, on average, are shorter and heavier than white males and it's been that way since slavery.

    The reality is skin bleaching and radical racial changing surgery are big in foreign non-white countries. Partically every East Asian female star has had surgery to look more like white women while in the US and other white populated areas it's less common to see altered East Asian celebrities. In white countries it's taught that you should be yourself and there is promotion through the media of natural non-white people. People familiar with the disconent with how non-white people look in relation to white people know these attractiveness scales are bogus. Black people's resentment in how they look in relation to white people (and no other race) is one of the leading drivers in their anger, jealousy and hatred of white people. African features is a major topic among black people, you can't go on any black website without it being talked about.

    I will also add:

    The picture you selected of an East Asian female had eyelid surgery and dyed her hair brown

    Neither of these appear to be true.

    It’s always interesting when someone says how attractive East Asians are then present a picture of a surgically altered (trying to look white) East Asian.

    Would you say that that’s true of this lady? I’d say she’s pretty attractive…

    I’m sure the pictures of black men were those who had white admixture and gained white features like a narrower, higher bridge nose, narrower, longer face, more prominent eyebrow ridge and prominent chin.

    The dude pictured is a full-blooded West African, yet is quite highly regarded in attractiveness.

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  • @synapticcohesion
    "You sure about that?

    Japanese often dye their hair brown, because apparently when they’re young, their hair is brown. That is about appearing youthful, not White."

    Actually, that is not true. There's no metamorphosis that occurs in Japanese children's hair as is the case with blonds and red heads. Most Japanese people's hair would be just as dark in childhood as would be in adulthood. There's no need to accumulate pigmentation later in life as all the normal amount of pigmentation is already there from birth. That said, there are some Asian peoples with genetic mutations and as a result have naturally lighter, less pigmented hair as well.

    There’s no metamorphosis that occurs in Japanese children’s hair as is the case with blonds and red heads. Most Japanese people’s hair would be just as dark in childhood as would be in adulthood.

    Ah. This was an anecdote that I’ve stumbled across. I haven’t bothered to confirm it at all, so thanks for pointing that out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @synapticcohesion
    Such is the nature of pseudoscience. One can claim anything based on his or her own personal feelings and biases without evidence and pretend it is scientific fact. It reveals a lot about the psychology of the "pseudoscientist" in question more than anything else.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @JayMan

    The picture you selected of an East Asian female had eyelid surgery and dyed her hair brown.
     
    You sure about that?

    Japanese often dye their hair brown, because apparently when they're young, their hair is brown. That is about appearing youthful, not White.


    The reality is black males, on average, are shorter and heavier than white males and it’s been that way since slavery.
     
    As I understand, there are no height differences between Whites and (West African) Blacks.

    The reality is skin bleaching and radical racial changing surgery are big in foreign non-white countries.
     
    Skin-whitening is common, but that is because of a general preference for lighter skin across the world.

    You make a lot of claims, but I'd like to see more support to see if they are of any substance.

    “You sure about that?

    Japanese often dye their hair brown, because apparently when they’re young, their hair is brown. That is about appearing youthful, not White.”

    Actually, that is not true. There’s no metamorphosis that occurs in Japanese children’s hair as is the case with blonds and red heads. Most Japanese people’s hair would be just as dark in childhood as would be in adulthood. There’s no need to accumulate pigmentation later in life as all the normal amount of pigmentation is already there from birth. That said, there are some Asian peoples with genetic mutations and as a result have naturally lighter, less pigmented hair as well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    There’s no metamorphosis that occurs in Japanese children’s hair as is the case with blonds and red heads. Most Japanese people’s hair would be just as dark in childhood as would be in adulthood.
     
    Ah. This was an anecdote that I've stumbled across. I haven't bothered to confirm it at all, so thanks for pointing that out.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    Total BS. East Asians and black Africans are less attractive than white people regardless of gender. The people that say otherwise are either East Asian, black African, trying to be politically correct or fetishists. The picture you selected of an East Asian female had eyelid surgery and dyed her hair brown. It's always interesting when someone says how attractive East Asians are then present a picture of a surgically altered (trying to look white) East Asian. I'm sure the pictures of black men were those who had white admixture and gained white features like a narrower, higher bridge nose, narrower, longer face, more prominent eyebrow ridge and prominent chin. The media depiction of black males is so far from reality that it's laughable. If you were to watch TV only and not know what actual black males were like you would think they were atleast 6 feet tall, muscular, with deep booming voices, charming personalities, and always had the right answers. The reality is black males, on average, are shorter and heavier than white males and it's been that way since slavery.

    The reality is skin bleaching and radical racial changing surgery are big in foreign non-white countries. Partically every East Asian female star has had surgery to look more like white women while in the US and other white populated areas it's less common to see altered East Asian celebrities. In white countries it's taught that you should be yourself and there is promotion through the media of natural non-white people. People familiar with the disconent with how non-white people look in relation to white people know these attractiveness scales are bogus. Black people's resentment in how they look in relation to white people (and no other race) is one of the leading drivers in their anger, jealousy and hatred of white people. African features is a major topic among black people, you can't go on any black website without it being talked about.

    The picture you selected of an East Asian female had eyelid surgery and dyed her hair brown.

    You sure about that?

    Japanese often dye their hair brown, because apparently when they’re young, their hair is brown. That is about appearing youthful, not White.

    The reality is black males, on average, are shorter and heavier than white males and it’s been that way since slavery.

    As I understand, there are no height differences between Whites and (West African) Blacks.

    The reality is skin bleaching and radical racial changing surgery are big in foreign non-white countries.

    Skin-whitening is common, but that is because of a general preference for lighter skin across the world.

    You make a lot of claims, but I’d like to see more support to see if they are of any substance.

    Read More
    • Replies: @synapticcohesion
    "You sure about that?

    Japanese often dye their hair brown, because apparently when they’re young, their hair is brown. That is about appearing youthful, not White."

    Actually, that is not true. There's no metamorphosis that occurs in Japanese children's hair as is the case with blonds and red heads. Most Japanese people's hair would be just as dark in childhood as would be in adulthood. There's no need to accumulate pigmentation later in life as all the normal amount of pigmentation is already there from birth. That said, there are some Asian peoples with genetic mutations and as a result have naturally lighter, less pigmented hair as well.

    , @JayMan
    And you were doing so well, synapticcohesion.

    Oh well, such is the nature of those who put ideological axioms in front of reality... :

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • synapticcohesion says:

    This is pathetic. Pseudoscience really gets on my nerves.

    JayMan responds:

    Wow could you even have read this that fast? I haven’t even closed the editing box…

    This is as far as SC needed to read:

    “Greg Cochran and Henry Harpending have recently proposed a hypothesis on their blog that posits that the lower average IQ of tropical peoples–”

    Then an alarm went off and SC’s crime-think module kicked in.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Matt_
    but those brains cost just as much per cubic centimeter.

    Why must they? It is probably not that hard to change the number of folds in the brain, or to change brain glucose use, or to change matter density... I'll admit perhaps it is harder than to simply prolong size growth though.

    This is likely because, as compared to Europeans, Africans tend to be more masculine overall, while East Asians tend to be more feminine. The greater masculinity of African male faces may have rendered them more attractive despite their higher overall genetic load (with the exact opposite likely being true for East Asian males—whose faces probably weren’t ugly per se, just too feminine).

    Interestingly, the relationship between masculinity and attractiveness is inconsistent in males - I think health indicators tend to generally work better in most facial studies I have seen.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0013585

    "Here, we used geometric morphometric techniques to assess facial masculinity, generating a morphological masculinity measure based on a discriminant function that correctly classified >96% faces as male or female. When assessed using this measure, there was no relationship between morphological masculinity and rated attractiveness. In contrast, skin colour – a fluctuating, condition-dependent cue – was a significant predictor of attractiveness."

    Of course, perceived masculinity in face shapes, as distinguished from masculinity derived from shape dimorphism or by comparing adult men with children, may be more related to attractiveness than the dimorphism related measure above.

    http://www.faceresearch.org/feedback/techniques - e.g. see here.

    It seems what is seen as masculine seems a little different from what men are when contrasted to women, or men when contrasted to kids.

    Perhaps African men have more (and Asian men less) of this "perceived masculinity" measure... That would make sense, since they are perceived as more masculine, but presumably would (evolutionarily) want to avoid the consequences of having androgenised women and unhealthily overandrogenised men (while East Asians would evolutionarily want to avoid having estrogenised men and over-estrogenised women), both of which would hit fertility and reproduction heavily.

    One other problem with the East Asians as having better genes and femininity would be that you would expect East Asian women to double dip and get a boost from both, and that East Asian men would lag less than African women... But I do not think this is actually the case.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0035917

    Also, as a note Africans seem more neotenous in terms of face shape than Europeans...

    "Main craniofacial changes indicate that Europeans differ from Southern Africans by increasing facial developmental rates and extending the attainment of adult size and shape. Since other studies have suggested that native subsaharan populations attain adulthood earlier than Europeans, it is probable that facial ontogeny is linked with other developmental mechanisms that control the timing of maturation in other variables. Southern Africans appear as retaining young features in adulthood."

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  • @Dan
    Cochran and Harpending's thesis is probably wrong for the following reason:

    If it was just about genetic load then

    (1) Why aren't there subgroups among Africans that have had high technology, high culture and arts and/or sophisticated government. And you really haven't had that apparently at any time in history, when you take off the patronizing lenses that everyone wears which judges the achievements of certain groups on an easier scale.

    If the only difference was genetic load, then some subgroups would have had less genetic load, especially during/after a period of intense selection, and then you would see the true sophistication come out. That hasn't happened.

    (2) Why aren't there individuals of consumate genius, who happen to have less genetic load (since presumably some individuals will have a lot of load and some will have almost none)? You would expect greater variability and great extremes. Instead, there is little evidence of consumate genius. Where are the science Nobels, the great inventions, patents or literature, the symphonies? There are just about none at all.

    Where genius appears among those groups it has actually been among mixed people.

    It seems like the extreme sophistication demonstrated by some Europeans and Asians never developed among some other groups. You would expect *some* examples of what a low load African looks like. In fact, I contend that the world has plenty of examples of African individuals of low genetic load and terrific genetic health. They just don't have the kind of genius you see in other groups, because a 'perfect' genome for that group simply doesn't have certain features.

    If it was just about genetic load

    C&H don’t claim that it is just genetic load:

    None of this implies that there are no other factors influencing the distribution of IQ, or its evolution. Strong selective pressures could keep IQ high in environment A, even if environment A had a somewhat higher mutation rate than environment B.

    Why aren’t there subgroups among Africans that have had high technology, high culture and arts and/or sophisticated government. And you really haven’t had that apparently at any time in history

    Well let’s hold off a too strong form of that. We did have the Nok culture (who may have presaged the Bantu expansion), and it was sub-Saharans who invented steel.

    It seems like the extreme sophistication demonstrated by some Europeans and Asians never developed among some other groups. You would expect *some* examples of what a low load African looks like.

    There are some sub-Saharans with very high IQs.

    In fact, I contend that the world has plenty of examples of African individuals of low genetic load and terrific genetic health. They just don’t have the kind of genius you see in other groups, because a ‘perfect’ genome for that group simply doesn’t have certain features.

    I don’t think that there is much contention over this point, particularly not with C&H.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    Wikipedia:
    "The earliest known production of steel is a piece of ironware excavated from an archaeological site in Anatolia (Kaman-Kalehoyuk) and is about 4,000 years old."
    So the claim sub-saharans invented steel seems to be exaggerated.

    Otherwise, Dan's post seems to indicate, that it is hard to grasp for some people, that a population with low average IQ may still produce quite a lot of high IQ people, and as such it is able to produce civilisational achievements.

    , @JayMan

    So the claim sub-saharans invented steel seems to be exaggerated.
     
    The Haya did discover steel independently, so they did indeed invent steel, even if they weren't the first to do so. Haya knowledge of steel use seems to have been confined to themselves, so their use of steel had little implication for the rest of the world, but it is fascinating that a sub-Saharan people made this discovery.
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  • Dan says:

    Cochran and Harpending’s thesis is probably wrong for the following reason:

    If it was just about genetic load then

    (1) Why aren’t there subgroups among Africans that have had high technology, high culture and arts and/or sophisticated government. And you really haven’t had that apparently at any time in history, when you take off the patronizing lenses that everyone wears which judges the achievements of certain groups on an easier scale.

    If the only difference was genetic load, then some subgroups would have had less genetic load, especially during/after a period of intense selection, and then you would see the true sophistication come out. That hasn’t happened.

    (2) Why aren’t there individuals of consumate genius, who happen to have less genetic load (since presumably some individuals will have a lot of load and some will have almost none)? You would expect greater variability and great extremes. Instead, there is little evidence of consumate genius. Where are the science Nobels, the great inventions, patents or literature, the symphonies? There are just about none at all.

    Where genius appears among those groups it has actually been among mixed people.

    It seems like the extreme sophistication demonstrated by some Europeans and Asians never developed among some other groups. You would expect *some* examples of what a low load African looks like. In fact, I contend that the world has plenty of examples of African individuals of low genetic load and terrific genetic health. They just don’t have the kind of genius you see in other groups, because a ‘perfect’ genome for that group simply doesn’t have certain features.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    If it was just about genetic load
     
    C&H don't claim that it is just genetic load:

    None of this implies that there are no other factors influencing the distribution of IQ, or its evolution. Strong selective pressures could keep IQ high in environment A, even if environment A had a somewhat higher mutation rate than environment B.
     

    Why aren’t there subgroups among Africans that have had high technology, high culture and arts and/or sophisticated government. And you really haven’t had that apparently at any time in history
     
    Well let's hold off a too strong form of that. We did have the Nok culture (who may have presaged the Bantu expansion), and it was sub-Saharans who invented steel.

    It seems like the extreme sophistication demonstrated by some Europeans and Asians never developed among some other groups. You would expect *some* examples of what a low load African looks like.
     
    There are some sub-Saharans with very high IQs.

    In fact, I contend that the world has plenty of examples of African individuals of low genetic load and terrific genetic health. They just don’t have the kind of genius you see in other groups, because a ‘perfect’ genome for that group simply doesn’t have certain features.
     
    I don't think that there is much contention over this point, particularly not with C&H.
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  • @Anonymous
    Dang. The post topic is incredibly interesting, and I've been following West Hunter blog so am interested in your take on the subject, but it takes all I have to read this white on black print. I implore you to change it.

    See the special tip (i.e., use control and +, makes life a whole lot easier).

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  • Dang. The post topic is incredibly interesting, and I’ve been following West Hunter blog so am interested in your take on the subject, but it takes all I have to read this white on black print. I implore you to change it.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    See the special tip (i.e., use control and +, makes life a whole lot easier).
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  • @Dan
    One reason I am disinclined to believe Cochran’s & Harpending’s idea is that I don't see evidence that blacks are generally less fit across the board.

    Look at the dominance of Africans many aspects of athletics for instance. Also look at, for example, facial symmetry. Is someone with the facial lopsidedness and disproportionateness of a Prince Charles more likely to be found among Europeans or Africans? I think that the answer is Europeans are more likely to be lopsided like that, but I don't have evidence.

    Don’t forget that Prince Charles is much more inbred than an average European male and so thus not very representative of the group.

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  • @Dan
    My theory is very simple. Big and or fast brains can overheat easily in very hot climates. They thus put their owner at a big risk for heat stroke in the tropics, whereas in Northern climes there is no such risk. This was a selective force *against* big or fast-clocking brains in places across the globe that were extremely hot.

    Consider that the 'total failure temperature' of the brain is only a few degrees hotter than the optimum of 98.6 or so.

    Others have had this perspective as well:

    http://www.mesacc.edu/dept/d10/asb/origins/bipedality.html

    http://www.public.wsu.edu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/phychar/02_brain_size.html

    http://books.google.com/books?id=NZ19UiDPosEC&pg=PA229&lpg=PA229&dq=heat+stroke+%22brain+size%22&source=bl&ots=BWrbhH3oK7&sig=SKR8J4IPp1QYfQXh2SWFVW5zYU0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WcoGULDjLYjF6wGxmZHWCA&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=heat%20stroke%20%22brain%20size%22&f=false

    The issue of heat stress is likely a real one for brains, but the heat-size connection isn’t incompatible with a genetic load-size connection. The only question is whether we need the genetic load theory, and I think the attractiveness-IQ connection is evidence that we might just. We’ll have to await more genomic analysis to get a better idea.

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  • @Dan
    One reason I am disinclined to believe Cochran’s & Harpending’s idea is that I don't see evidence that blacks are generally less fit across the board.

    Look at the dominance of Africans many aspects of athletics for instance. Also look at, for example, facial symmetry. Is someone with the facial lopsidedness and disproportionateness of a Prince Charles more likely to be found among Europeans or Africans? I think that the answer is Europeans are more likely to be lopsided like that, but I don't have evidence.

    From my own experience I can say that there are plenty of Blacks (of both sexes) who have many such facial imperfections.

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  • Dan says:

    One reason I am disinclined to believe Cochran’s & Harpending’s idea is that I don’t see evidence that blacks are generally less fit across the board.

    Look at the dominance of Africans many aspects of athletics for instance. Also look at, for example, facial symmetry. Is someone with the facial lopsidedness and disproportionateness of a Prince Charles more likely to be found among Europeans or Africans? I think that the answer is Europeans are more likely to be lopsided like that, but I don’t have evidence.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    From my own experience I can say that there are plenty of Blacks (of both sexes) who have many such facial imperfections.
    , @Anonymous
    Don't forget that Prince Charles is much more inbred than an average European male and so thus not very representative of the group.
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  • Dan says:

    My theory is very simple. Big and or fast brains can overheat easily in very hot climates. They thus put their owner at a big risk for heat stroke in the tropics, whereas in Northern climes there is no such risk. This was a selective force *against* big or fast-clocking brains in places across the globe that were extremely hot.

    Consider that the ‘total failure temperature’ of the brain is only a few degrees hotter than the optimum of 98.6 or so.

    Others have had this perspective as well:

    http://www.mesacc.edu/dept/d10/asb/origins/bipedality.html

    http://www.public.wsu.edu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/phychar/02_brain_size.html

    http://books.google.com/books?id=NZ19UiDPosEC&pg=PA229&lpg=PA229&dq=heat+stroke+%22brain+size%22&source=bl&ots=BWrbhH3oK7&sig=SKR8J4IPp1QYfQXh2SWFVW5zYU0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WcoGULDjLYjF6wGxmZHWCA&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=heat%20stroke%20%22brain%20size%22&f=false

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    The issue of heat stress is likely a real one for brains, but the heat-size connection isn't incompatible with a genetic load-size connection. The only question is whether we need the genetic load theory, and I think the attractiveness-IQ connection is evidence that we might just. We'll have to await more genomic analysis to get a better idea.
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  • @Paul
    Fascinating theory, which manages to tie together lots of different strings.

    I have a problem with this:

    "In East Asia, and to a lesser extent Europe, the selection for docility by strong state governments would have favored genes for feminization"

    Sure, there was strong govt in what is now central China, but not so much in Japan and not at all in Mongolia and central Asia -- but I do not see much difference. Northern Europe has had strong govt for a lot less time than say Egypt.

    Yeah, I thought the same thing. While I don’t know enough about Mongols or for that matter Siberians/Central Asians to be certain about the pattern there, I will say that from what I do know (anecdotally) that Mongolians and Southeast Asians aren’t quite as feminized as “core” East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans) in terms of behavior or appearance (e.g., Mongols are quite a bit taller than Han Chinese, I understand).

    As for northern Europe, while strong states haven’t existed there long, it nonetheless appears that quite a bit of change can happen in a short time.

    And thanks!

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  • Fascinating theory, which manages to tie together lots of different strings.

    I have a problem with this:

    “In East Asia, and to a lesser extent Europe, the selection for docility by strong state governments would have favored genes for feminization”

    Sure, there was strong govt in what is now central China, but not so much in Japan and not at all in Mongolia and central Asia — but I do not see much difference. Northern Europe has had strong govt for a lot less time than say Egypt.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    Yeah, I thought the same thing. While I don't know enough about Mongols or for that matter Siberians/Central Asians to be certain about the pattern there, I will say that from what I do know (anecdotally) that Mongolians and Southeast Asians aren't quite as feminized as "core" East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans) in terms of behavior or appearance (e.g., Mongols are quite a bit taller than Han Chinese, I understand).

    As for northern Europe, while strong states haven't existed there long, it nonetheless appears that quite a bit of change can happen in a short time.

    And thanks!

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Total BS. East Asians and black Africans are less attractive than white people regardless of gender. The people that say otherwise are either East Asian, black African, trying to be politically correct or fetishists. The picture you selected of an East Asian female had eyelid surgery and dyed her hair brown. It’s always interesting when someone says how attractive East Asians are then present a picture of a surgically altered (trying to look white) East Asian. I’m sure the pictures of black men were those who had white admixture and gained white features like a narrower, higher bridge nose, narrower, longer face, more prominent eyebrow ridge and prominent chin. The media depiction of black males is so far from reality that it’s laughable. If you were to watch TV only and not know what actual black males were like you would think they were atleast 6 feet tall, muscular, with deep booming voices, charming personalities, and always had the right answers. The reality is black males, on average, are shorter and heavier than white males and it’s been that way since slavery.

    The reality is skin bleaching and radical racial changing surgery are big in foreign non-white countries. Partically every East Asian female star has had surgery to look more like white women while in the US and other white populated areas it’s less common to see altered East Asian celebrities. In white countries it’s taught that you should be yourself and there is promotion through the media of natural non-white people. People familiar with the disconent with how non-white people look in relation to white people know these attractiveness scales are bogus. Black people’s resentment in how they look in relation to white people (and no other race) is one of the leading drivers in their anger, jealousy and hatred of white people. African features is a major topic among black people, you can’t go on any black website without it being talked about.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    The picture you selected of an East Asian female had eyelid surgery and dyed her hair brown.
     
    You sure about that?

    Japanese often dye their hair brown, because apparently when they're young, their hair is brown. That is about appearing youthful, not White.


    The reality is black males, on average, are shorter and heavier than white males and it’s been that way since slavery.
     
    As I understand, there are no height differences between Whites and (West African) Blacks.

    The reality is skin bleaching and radical racial changing surgery are big in foreign non-white countries.
     
    Skin-whitening is common, but that is because of a general preference for lighter skin across the world.

    You make a lot of claims, but I'd like to see more support to see if they are of any substance.

    , @JayMan
    I will also add:

    The picture you selected of an East Asian female had eyelid surgery and dyed her hair brown
     
    Neither of these appear to be true.

    It’s always interesting when someone says how attractive East Asians are then present a picture of a surgically altered (trying to look white) East Asian.
     
    Would you say that that's true of this lady? I'd say she's pretty attractive...

    I’m sure the pictures of black men were those who had white admixture and gained white features like a narrower, higher bridge nose, narrower, longer face, more prominent eyebrow ridge and prominent chin.
     
    The dude pictured is a full-blooded West African, yet is quite highly regarded in attractiveness.
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  • @synapticcohesion
    This is pathetic. Pseudoscience really gets on my nerves.

    Wow could you even have read this that fast? I haven’t even closed the editing box… :|

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  • This is pathetic. Pseudoscience really gets on my nerves.

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    • Replies: @JayMan
    Wow could you even have read this that fast? I haven't even closed the editing box... :|
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