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    David Ray Griffin is one of the world’s most important thinkers. I first encountered his work in the mid-1990s while preparing a Ph.D. on Moroccan Sufi legends. It quickly dawned on me that Griffin’s analysis of postmodernism was more sensible than most of the trendier literature on the subject, while his work on such empirical...
  • The God’s Code of Nature
    =
    §1. Vacuum: T= 0K, E= ∞ , p = 0, t =∞
    § 2. Particles: C/D= pi=3,14, R/N=k, E/M=c^2, h=0, c=0, i^2=-1
    § 3. Photon: h=E/t, h=kb, h=1, c=1
    § 4. Electron: h*=h/2pi, c>1, E=h*f , e^2=ach
    § 5. Gravity, Star formation: h*f = kTlogW : He II — > He I — > H– >
    § 6. Proton: (p)
    § 7. The evolution of interaction between Photon / Electron and Proton:
    a) electromagnetic
    b) nuclear
    c) biological
    § 8. The Physical Laws:
    a) Law of Conservation and Transformation Energy/ Mass
    b) Pauli Exclusion Law
    c) Heisenberg Uncertainty Law
    § 9. Brain: Dualism of Consciousness
    § 10. Test and Practice: Parapsychology. Meditation
    ===
    The secret of God, Soul and Existence is hidden in
    ” The theory of Vacuum and Quantum of Light”
    ===
    Israel Sadovnik Socratus
    =======================

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  • […] Politically, morally, spiritually, and ecologically, the world in general and the USA in particular are heading for hell in the proverbial handbasket. What set us on this seemingly inexorable course toward almost unimaginable catastrophe? Many things…but a key moment was undoubtedly September 11th, 2001, the date the neocon virus metastasized. In his new book Bush and Cheney: How They Ruined America and the World, David Ray Griffin diagnoses, in excruciating detail, the political disease that is literally killing us. The first half of this interview covers that book; the second focuses on Dr. Griffin’s previous book, God Exists But Gawd Does Not, which I reviewed here. […]

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  • To Steel T Post :

    Okay the point that you and everyone else here is missing is that I am saying that each and every single human being is creating all of his own personal reality/universe/dimension, and he/she is then the God thereof, and there is no “outside” , there is no “separate” God.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” society member of forty-plus years and pro jazz artist.

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  • @pat the rat
    Reading your thoughts about being God and stuff and creating little overlapping universes and so on has a name Jazzman. It's called self deification.

    Caligula and Tiberius I think had good lines in self-deification.

    The main trouble besides the most obvious ones of losing touch with reality and others around you, is that believing yourself to be God is completely contrary to what God is understood to be. An individual may consider themselves God, but they will not live for ever, nor do they have power that God as creator has.

    It is so contradictory that essentially you are wishing yourself to be nothing. It's a death wish Jazzman.

    Some people may live that way it's true, but I don't think they really believe it. They more hold the belief because they can do whatever they want without guilt or reflection. It is a convenience more than a belief.

    Not sure if you really think you are God Jazzman, I would be surprised if you do. I would still think it is a posture, a kind of label of convenience by which one absolves oneself of guilt and the self reflection of the conscience.

    Perhaps Jazzman really believes in his heart that Psalm 82:6 is true.

    I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. -Psalms82:6

    Jesus did too.

    Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken. -John 10:34-35

    The Pharisees and Christians do not seem to like Jesus’ preaching that all of you are each a son of god. They dislike it so much, they add their own word to the Bible, as Alan Watts points out:

    I am a son of God, well there’s the whole thing in a nutshell. If you read the King James Bible…You will see in italics, in front of the words son of God, the son of God. Most people think the italics are for emphasis. They’re not. The italics indicate words interpolated by the translators. You will not find that in the Greek. In the Greek it says, a son of God.

    It seems to me here perfectly plain. That Jesus has got it in the back of his mind that this isn’t something peculiar to himself. So when he says, I am the Way, no Man comes to the Father but by me. This I am, this Me, is the divine in us.

    We are sons of, or of the nature of God. Manifestations of the divine. This discovery is the gospel. That is the Good News. But this has been perpetually repressed throughout the history of Western religion.

    Alan Watts
    Jesus and His Religion
    youtube.com/watch?v=s42V8BGBvTk

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  • @Authenticjazzman
    " wholly unknowable" , "that which is beyond his knowledge"

    There is nothing in all of existance which is : "Unknowable" or "Beyond knowledge"

    These concepts, the concepts of "mystery" and "you are too lowly or stupid to understand this wisdom", these concepts were employed by oppressors, by tyrants, by religious leaders, to hold down the masses and to subjugate them to the whims and exploitation of these scoundrels, period.

    And I don't give a damn what certain "Philosophers" claimed to be true, if it does not conform with my own standpoints.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" society member of forty-plus years and pro jazz artist.

    Reading your thoughts about being God and stuff and creating little overlapping universes and so on has a name Jazzman. It’s called self deification.

    Caligula and Tiberius I think had good lines in self-deification.

    The main trouble besides the most obvious ones of losing touch with reality and others around you, is that believing yourself to be God is completely contrary to what God is understood to be. An individual may consider themselves God, but they will not live for ever, nor do they have power that God as creator has.

    It is so contradictory that essentially you are wishing yourself to be nothing. It’s a death wish Jazzman.

    Some people may live that way it’s true, but I don’t think they really believe it. They more hold the belief because they can do whatever they want without guilt or reflection. It is a convenience more than a belief.

    Not sure if you really think you are God Jazzman, I would be surprised if you do. I would still think it is a posture, a kind of label of convenience by which one absolves oneself of guilt and the self reflection of the conscience.

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    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    Perhaps Jazzman really believes in his heart that Psalm 82:6 is true.

    I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. -Psalms82:6
     
    Jesus did too.

    Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken. -John 10:34-35
     
    The Pharisees and Christians do not seem to like Jesus' preaching that all of you are each a son of god. They dislike it so much, they add their own word to the Bible, as Alan Watts points out:

    I am a son of God, well there's the whole thing in a nutshell. If you read the King James Bible...You will see in italics, in front of the words son of God, the son of God. Most people think the italics are for emphasis. They're not. The italics indicate words interpolated by the translators. You will not find that in the Greek. In the Greek it says, a son of God.

    It seems to me here perfectly plain. That Jesus has got it in the back of his mind that this isn’t something peculiar to himself. So when he says, I am the Way, no Man comes to the Father but by me. This I am, this Me, is the divine in us.

    We are sons of, or of the nature of God. Manifestations of the divine. This discovery is the gospel. That is the Good News. But this has been perpetually repressed throughout the history of Western religion.

    Alan Watts
    Jesus and His Religion
    youtube.com/watch?v=s42V8BGBvTk
     
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • What is mysticism? Mysticism is the acceptance of allegations without evidence or proof, either apart from or against the evidence of one’s senses and one’s reason.

    A mystic is a man who surrendered his mind at its first encounter with the minds of others. Somewhere in the distant reaches of his childhood, when his own understanding of reality clashed with the assertions of others, with their arbitrary orders and contradictory demands, he gave in to so craven a fear of independence that he renounced his rational faculty. At the crossroads of the choice between “I know” and “They say,” he chose the authority of others, he chose to submit rather than to understand, to believe rather than to think. Faith in the supernatural begins as faith in the superiority of others.

    But who is John Galt? ;)

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  • @Seraphim
    Sadly, no, but I did not lose hope. I was quoting a tiny part of the 'memories' of one who was there (like Saint Paul before him -2 Corinthians 12:2) and who is deemed the 'father' of the mystical tradition. You may 'ask' him (Saint Dionysius the Areopagite - the disciple of Saint Paul), whose 'memories' of the experience are collected in the 'Corpus Areopagiticum', readily available on the net.

    Ahh, so this knowledge came from other humans. Do you actually believe that humans actually tell the truth about “religion” anymore than they tell the truth about anything else? You think that divine power prevents false narratives from being told about “religious truths”?

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  • @Authenticjazzman
    " wholly unknowable" , "that which is beyond his knowledge"

    There is nothing in all of existance which is : "Unknowable" or "Beyond knowledge"

    These concepts, the concepts of "mystery" and "you are too lowly or stupid to understand this wisdom", these concepts were employed by oppressors, by tyrants, by religious leaders, to hold down the masses and to subjugate them to the whims and exploitation of these scoundrels, period.

    And I don't give a damn what certain "Philosophers" claimed to be true, if it does not conform with my own standpoints.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" society member of forty-plus years and pro jazz artist.

    Do you think that someone gives a damn for what you think, or your ‘standpoints’?

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  • @Seraphim
    @no human is capable of understanding that which is infinite and eternal...

    The sentence should be qualified: 'by his finite mind'. But it could be 'comprehended' mystically:

    "the divinest and highest things seen by the eyes or contemplated by the mind are but the symbolical expressions of those that are immediately beneath it that is above all. Through these, Its incomprehensible Presence is manifested upon those heights of Its Holy Places; that then It breaks forth, even from that which is seen and that which sees, and plunges the mystic into the Darkness of Unknowing, whence all perfection of understanding is excluded, and he is enwrapped in that which is altogether intangible, wholly absorbed in it that is beyond all, and in none else (whether himself or another); and through the inactivity of all his reasoning powers is united by his highest faculty to it that is wholly unknowable; thus by knowing nothing he knows That which is beyond his knowledge" (Dionysius the Areopagite, Mystical Theology).

    You show a better understanding than Authenticjizmman in his solo exercise.

    ” wholly unknowable” , “that which is beyond his knowledge”

    There is nothing in all of existance which is : “Unknowable” or “Beyond knowledge”

    These concepts, the concepts of “mystery” and “you are too lowly or stupid to understand this wisdom”, these concepts were employed by oppressors, by tyrants, by religious leaders, to hold down the masses and to subjugate them to the whims and exploitation of these scoundrels, period.

    And I don’t give a damn what certain “Philosophers” claimed to be true, if it does not conform with my own standpoints.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” society member of forty-plus years and pro jazz artist.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Do you think that someone gives a damn for what you think, or your 'standpoints'?
    , @pat the rat
    Reading your thoughts about being God and stuff and creating little overlapping universes and so on has a name Jazzman. It's called self deification.

    Caligula and Tiberius I think had good lines in self-deification.

    The main trouble besides the most obvious ones of losing touch with reality and others around you, is that believing yourself to be God is completely contrary to what God is understood to be. An individual may consider themselves God, but they will not live for ever, nor do they have power that God as creator has.

    It is so contradictory that essentially you are wishing yourself to be nothing. It's a death wish Jazzman.

    Some people may live that way it's true, but I don't think they really believe it. They more hold the belief because they can do whatever they want without guilt or reflection. It is a convenience more than a belief.

    Not sure if you really think you are God Jazzman, I would be surprised if you do. I would still think it is a posture, a kind of label of convenience by which one absolves oneself of guilt and the self reflection of the conscience.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous White Male
    I see. So, you've been there? Let me rephrase: So, you've experienced this? If so, when you returned from this, was your experience transferred "perfectly" into your finite mind? If not, you are only remembering memories. Correct?

    Sadly, no, but I did not lose hope. I was quoting a tiny part of the ‘memories’ of one who was there (like Saint Paul before him -2 Corinthians 12:2) and who is deemed the ‘father’ of the mystical tradition. You may ‘ask’ him (Saint Dionysius the Areopagite – the disciple of Saint Paul), whose ‘memories’ of the experience are collected in the ‘Corpus Areopagiticum’, readily available on the net.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous White Male
    Ahh, so this knowledge came from other humans. Do you actually believe that humans actually tell the truth about "religion" anymore than they tell the truth about anything else? You think that divine power prevents false narratives from being told about "religious truths"?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Seraphim
    @no human is capable of understanding that which is infinite and eternal...

    The sentence should be qualified: 'by his finite mind'. But it could be 'comprehended' mystically:

    "the divinest and highest things seen by the eyes or contemplated by the mind are but the symbolical expressions of those that are immediately beneath it that is above all. Through these, Its incomprehensible Presence is manifested upon those heights of Its Holy Places; that then It breaks forth, even from that which is seen and that which sees, and plunges the mystic into the Darkness of Unknowing, whence all perfection of understanding is excluded, and he is enwrapped in that which is altogether intangible, wholly absorbed in it that is beyond all, and in none else (whether himself or another); and through the inactivity of all his reasoning powers is united by his highest faculty to it that is wholly unknowable; thus by knowing nothing he knows That which is beyond his knowledge" (Dionysius the Areopagite, Mystical Theology).

    You show a better understanding than Authenticjizmman in his solo exercise.

    I see. So, you’ve been there? Let me rephrase: So, you’ve experienced this? If so, when you returned from this, was your experience transferred “perfectly” into your finite mind? If not, you are only remembering memories. Correct?

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Sadly, no, but I did not lose hope. I was quoting a tiny part of the 'memories' of one who was there (like Saint Paul before him -2 Corinthians 12:2) and who is deemed the 'father' of the mystical tradition. You may 'ask' him (Saint Dionysius the Areopagite - the disciple of Saint Paul), whose 'memories' of the experience are collected in the 'Corpus Areopagiticum', readily available on the net.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @no human is capable of understanding that which is infinite and eternal…

    The sentence should be qualified: ‘by his finite mind’. But it could be ‘comprehended’ mystically:

    “the divinest and highest things seen by the eyes or contemplated by the mind are but the symbolical expressions of those that are immediately beneath it that is above all. Through these, Its incomprehensible Presence is manifested upon those heights of Its Holy Places; that then It breaks forth, even from that which is seen and that which sees, and plunges the mystic into the Darkness of Unknowing, whence all perfection of understanding is excluded, and he is enwrapped in that which is altogether intangible, wholly absorbed in it that is beyond all, and in none else (whether himself or another); and through the inactivity of all his reasoning powers is united by his highest faculty to it that is wholly unknowable; thus by knowing nothing he knows That which is beyond his knowledge” (Dionysius the Areopagite, Mystical Theology).

    You show a better understanding than Authenticjizmman in his solo exercise.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous White Male
    I see. So, you've been there? Let me rephrase: So, you've experienced this? If so, when you returned from this, was your experience transferred "perfectly" into your finite mind? If not, you are only remembering memories. Correct?
    , @Authenticjazzman
    " wholly unknowable" , "that which is beyond his knowledge"

    There is nothing in all of existance which is : "Unknowable" or "Beyond knowledge"

    These concepts, the concepts of "mystery" and "you are too lowly or stupid to understand this wisdom", these concepts were employed by oppressors, by tyrants, by religious leaders, to hold down the masses and to subjugate them to the whims and exploitation of these scoundrels, period.

    And I don't give a damn what certain "Philosophers" claimed to be true, if it does not conform with my own standpoints.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" society member of forty-plus years and pro jazz artist.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Authenticjazzman
    God does most certainly exist however within an entirely different context and that being :

    Each and every human being is " God" , as each and every human is creating their own universe, the whole of it, and they are then the God of their own self-created reality/universe/dimension.

    This means that within this space arrangement called "Earth" there are approx seven billion overlapping universes being created within this moment, the moment of the eternal "Now".

    The main bone of contention being the claim by religious groups that there exists a "Separate" "outside" God who is directing and creating the existing viewable reality, and this being the greatest misunderstanding of mankind the false idea of an "outside" God. There is no "outside" God: you are the God of your own reality, period.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" society member of forty-plus years and pro jazz artist.

    Hmm, sounds like:

    Genesis 3:5 (KJV)

    “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil”.

    You might want to consider:

    I Corinthians 3:19 (KJV)

    “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God”

    Prov 16:25 (KJV)

    “There is a way that seemeth right unto a man,
    but the end thereof are the ways of death”.

    Job 38.4 (KJV)

    “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding”.

    Isaiah 55:8–9 (KJV)

    “For pMy thoughts are not your thoughts,
    Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
    “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    So are My ways higher than your ways,
    And My thoughts than your thoughts.”

    Face it, no human is capable of understanding that which is infinite and eternal. All attempts of religion and philosophy are mental masturbation. Including what I just posted.

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  • @jb
    A simple question: can people who go to Heaven still do evil after they get there?

    If they can, then presumably this will get them kicked out of Heaven, so Heaven is not really eternal, at least not for everybody.

    If they can't, then by your reasoning there is no free will in Heaven. And since Heaven is supposed to be the most wonderful place ever, wouldn't this seem to imply that maybe free will isn't so important after all?

    I could write a long reply, but this about sums it up: https://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/FRWILL.HTM .

    Yours is a very natural question.

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  • @Steel T Post
    I concur with you about learning from video, it often has a very "thin" signal to noise ratio. I do like the documentary I recommended, especially with the original video footage of the experiments provided. But there are two books published on TMT now for those who prefer reading, and I'll include in this list Becker's book that inspired the research:

    • Ernest Becker (1973) The Denial of Death. Free Press.
    • Stephen Cave (2012) Immortality: The Quest to Live Forever and How It Drives Civilization. Crown.
    • Sheldon Solomon and Jeff Greenberg (2015) The Worm at the Core: On the Role of Death in Life. Random House.

    As far as the aggression in the middle-east, the TMT researchers actually use your example.

    Paradoxically, an unconscious fear of death may underlie much of the motivation behind terrorism and reactions to terrorism, maintains psychologist Tom Pyszczynski, PhD, of the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs. Along with colleagues Jeff Greenberg, PhD, and Sheldon Solomon, PhD, Pyszczynski developed "terror management theory," which holds that people use culture and religion to protect themselves from a fear of death that lies on the fringes of awareness.

    DeAngelis, T. (2009) Understanding terrorism. Monitor on Psychology. Vol 40, No. 10, p. 60.
     
    Anyway, take it for what it's worth.

    I also concur with your admonition "to never put the scare of death into any of your children!" Yours is outstanding advice.

    G’day again. I did watch the video before my previous response and yes, the experiments are impressive.

    “Paradoxically, an unconscious fear of death may underlie much of the motivation behind terrorism and reactions to terrorism”

    This is, possibly, simply too convenient. We do know, for instance, that ‘modern terrorism’ was largely invented by the alien interlopers into Palestine, see the King David Hotel bombing, say. The perps were setting out to steal an entire country, or even more, deploying genocidal violence as their main tool. Not much to do with any unconscious fear of death there, despite their crooked claims re persecution. Then, the Al-Qaeda types didn’t appear in response to the interlopers’ aggression so much, as were manufactured by ‘the West,’ including perverting a branch of Islam as ‘subversion,’ also with a big helping hand from the West. ‘Too convenient’ also, is the idea that fear of death is somewhat universal, thus ‘letting off’ the psychopathic tyrant ‘leadership.’ Of course, the fear of death widely exists, but as a ‘prime mover’ requires further study by me. I found the “Denial of Death” book in the public domain:

    https://archive.org/details/DenialOfDeath

    My concept of the ‘population at large’ is that they are mostly decent people, but the ‘leadership’ has gone astray. Representatives are no longer ‘honest’ [if they ever were]; they obviously sell-out, to $s, erring ideology and/or are coerced, most often by some filthy 5th column. I see the villains all together as:

    The US rogue regime = US-M/I/C/4a†-plex, with dog-wagging-tail, its illegitimate sprog the Zionist/Israeli rogue regime + Js = I/J/Z-plex, all components rife with corruption.

    a = academic = econ, psy, leg et al.; 4 = MSM+PFBCs, † = churches

    add a few significant stragglers like $ = banksters & ¿ = spies

    Q: Why academia? A: Well, economists largely support ‘neoliberal’ erring ideology, psychologists prepare and propagate the ‘Bernays haze’ and lawyers ‘tolerate’ torture, say, plus aggressive warring, amongst other sins. As with the traitor-politicians, it’s the same corrupting forces at work, again $s, erring ideology and/or filthy 5th column coercion. Again of course, that could just be the visible surface, with fear of death being the constant undercurrent. As I say, more work for me to do, and thanks for your engagement. rgds

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  • @Steel T Post
    God’s own big voice sounds like Uranus, the son and husband of Gaia.

    "And lo a voice from [Ouranos/Uranus], saying..." (Matthew 3:17)

    "...and a voice came from [Ouranos/Uranus], which said..." (Luke 3:22)
     

    Uranus and Gaia were the parents of the Titans—Kronos, Iapetus, Hyperion, Oceanus, Coeus, Creus, Theia, Rhea, Mnemosyne, Phoebe, Tethys, and Themis—who, along with their underworld prison Tartarus into which they were cast by Uranus, the God of the sky, are recognized in Peter's epistle.

    For if God (Uranus) spared not the angels (Titans) that sinned, but cast them down to [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. (2 Peter 2:4)
     
    Do you believe in the whole first Pantheon of Greek Gods who ruled during the legendary Golden Age literally or figuratively?

    Is that the terrifying Hell perched on stilts (or is it a post)? Nah, is just a Scarecrow.

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  • @Seraphim
    @God speaks in a small voice to each person if you wish to listen.

    If you believe in Jesus dying for our sins, not because I can prove it, but because the poetry of the story is compelling, how much more compelling will be God's own big voice when he spoke to the Prophets and the Apostles when he showed himself to them?

    "16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased*. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star (φωσφόρος) arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:16-20).
    The poetry of the heart is the light of the day star arising your hearts.

    *16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased (Mathew 3: 16-17).

    Right, don’t send the kids off to war with flimsy tools like the Occam razor. Give them the right ones:

    "10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints" (Ephesians 6:10-18)

    God’s own big voice sounds like Uranus, the son and husband of Gaia.

    “And lo a voice from [Ouranos/Uranus], saying…” (Matthew 3:17)

    “…and a voice came from [Ouranos/Uranus], which said…” (Luke 3:22)

    Uranus and Gaia were the parents of the Titans—Kronos, Iapetus, Hyperion, Oceanus, Coeus, Creus, Theia, Rhea, Mnemosyne, Phoebe, Tethys, and Themis—who, along with their underworld prison Tartarus into which they were cast by Uranus, the God of the sky, are recognized in Peter’s epistle.

    For if God (Uranus) spared not the angels (Titans) that sinned, but cast them down to [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. (2 Peter 2:4)

    Do you believe in the whole first Pantheon of Greek Gods who ruled during the legendary Golden Age literally or figuratively?

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Is that the terrifying Hell perched on stilts (or is it a post)? Nah, is just a Scarecrow.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @headrick
    This attempt at apologetics, as it used to be called in Catholic high school, is doomed.
    I take my stand on the hill with the hopeful, and not across the way with the cynical.
    In the face of human inability to know such deep thing, this is my choice, to pick my clan.
    I hear the voices of hope, and it is poetry. Science offers no conclusions on either side. Some think occams razor would favor just the universe as it is, with no God, but the truth is that there is nothing science has to say about such deep things.
    My personal belief is that Man and God had a early understanding about their relationship - The garden of eden is the symbolic representation, that Man wanted to walk alone in nature, and to arrogate to himself to define the nature of such deep reality, and did not want God behind every question. Like a wild animal that escapes the safety of a benevolent keeper to live in the woods in freedom, because that is the nature of man.
    So- thats what we have. God speaks in a small voice to each person if you wish to listen.

    There is no chance of converting the cynic with metaphysical arguments. The cynics are always ready with an alternative. Physical constants tuned to make life possible? Well we have the m-brane collision theory which generates an infinite number of universes over time, and we are in the one which supports life because here we are standing on our shoes reflecting on it. There is not proof of God because that is the deal man has struck with God. I believe in Jesus dying for our sins, not because I can prove it, but because the poetry of the story is compelling. The same kind of poetry that makes the Maxwell equations - right. because it is simple- and beautiful, and it works.

    If you send kids off to College thinking there is a successful argument for God and Christianity, they will be crushed by their atheist professors, and they will lose their faith. Don't send them off to war with such flawed tools as those presented based on
    physics of the day. Don't please.
    God will speak to them someday, and they come to know, but not based on a proof.
    Poetry of the heart- decide on what hill you want to stand on son.

    @God speaks in a small voice to each person if you wish to listen.

    If you believe in Jesus dying for our sins, not because I can prove it, but because the poetry of the story is compelling, how much more compelling will be God’s own big voice when he spoke to the Prophets and the Apostles when he showed himself to them?

    “16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased*. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star (φωσφόρος) arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Peter 1:16-20).
    The poetry of the heart is the light of the day star arising your hearts.

    *16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased (Mathew 3: 16-17).

    Right, don’t send the kids off to war with flimsy tools like the Occam razor. Give them the right ones:

    “10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints” (Ephesians 6:10-18)

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    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    God’s own big voice sounds like Uranus, the son and husband of Gaia.

    "And lo a voice from [Ouranos/Uranus], saying..." (Matthew 3:17)

    "...and a voice came from [Ouranos/Uranus], which said..." (Luke 3:22)
     

    Uranus and Gaia were the parents of the Titans—Kronos, Iapetus, Hyperion, Oceanus, Coeus, Creus, Theia, Rhea, Mnemosyne, Phoebe, Tethys, and Themis—who, along with their underworld prison Tartarus into which they were cast by Uranus, the God of the sky, are recognized in Peter's epistle.

    For if God (Uranus) spared not the angels (Titans) that sinned, but cast them down to [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. (2 Peter 2:4)
     
    Do you believe in the whole first Pantheon of Greek Gods who ruled during the legendary Golden Age literally or figuratively?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Seraphim
    Well, I know you disagree with us. So, why did you ask the question in the first place? Hoping to catch us in some sort of contradiction with 'our' Bible?

    Hey Seraphim,

    No, actually I’ve got a similar conversation going on on another thread with some Jewish folks and I wanted to know what you guys think from a more traditional Christian perspective.

    Again thanks – especially for the etymological breakdown.

    Peace.

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  • @Talha
    Hey Seraphim,

    Sweet - thanks for the info! Of course, we disagree with it, but thanks for replying in such detail none the less.

    Peace.

    Well, I know you disagree with us. So, why did you ask the question in the first place? Hoping to catch us in some sort of contradiction with ‘our’ Bible?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Seraphim,

    No, actually I've got a similar conversation going on on another thread with some Jewish folks and I wanted to know what you guys think from a more traditional Christian perspective.

    Again thanks - especially for the etymological breakdown.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • He lost me when he brought in the holocaust, that is a prime example of Victor’s History, something which until proven beyond doubt with evidence should not be used in any argument or illustration.
    Please read the Enigma Ciphers from the concentration camp commanders to Berlin.

    WHAT IS surprising is that although every minute detail of SS and concentration camp operations is mirrored in these thousands of messages, preserved either in the original German, or in English translation and sometimes in both there is no reference whatever to mass killing operations by gas or any other method in the camps.

    Every other conceivable detail is however reflected in the signals, including a signal to Auschwitz commandant S.S. Sturmbannfuhrer Rudolf Hoss in September 1942 regretting that rubber truncheons are unobtainable in Breslau.

    GCCS German Police report No. 41, 1942, Oct 5, 1942 PRO file HW.166, part ii.

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  • @Seraphim
    @all depends on how one wants to approach it from a lexical perspective.

    Indeed. It can be approached taking the words in their original sense or in an altered sense.
    This is how 'us guys' (I suspect that you mean Christians) interpret the passage on Ishmael, as the Bible says (in context). Muslims interpret it according to their own fantasies.

    For example, the promise regarding Ishmael says that he would make him a ἔθνος μέγα. Mega means 'big', 'large' in a numerical sense (will increase him and multiply him exceedingly; twelve nations shall he beget). Great in the sense of 'amount above average', not in the sense of 'ability, quality, or eminence considerably above average'.
    The promise made to Abraham is sort of consolation prize for the fact that God refused the demand of Abraham to make Ishmael the inheritor because he was born illegitimate. God commanded Abraham to pass the inheritance to the legitimate son, Isaac. " I will establish my testament with him, for an everlasting testament, to be a God to him and to his seed after him". Actually, the real sense of διαθήκη, ברית (berith) is precisely "testament".
    But God provides also for Ishmael for the sake of Abraham, he was nevertheless a son. He gave him his benediction to become prosperous, but not any special status.
    The fact that "Practically all the early Christians who came into contact with the Muslims accepted that they were from the progeny of Ishmael, correct?" does not imply recognition of their claims that Ishmael was the 'chosen' because he was the first-born. It was a simple statement of fact, Ishmael was the progenitor of the Arabs, that's all. He might have built the Kaaba, might have been the ancestor of Mahomed, Christians have no bones with that.

    Hey Seraphim,

    Sweet – thanks for the info! Of course, we disagree with it, but thanks for replying in such detail none the less.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Well, I know you disagree with us. So, why did you ask the question in the first place? Hoping to catch us in some sort of contradiction with 'our' Bible?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    As an aside, the American Jewish writer Tony Horwitz' book Baghdad Without a Map has an interesting account of the tiny remaining Jewish community in Yemen in the 1980s, sadly I think even that remnant has left by now. When I was in Istanbul in the early 2000s, our tour guide pointed to some of the remaining Jewish landmarks there, security was present as tensions were already beginning to get worse. I think the only other significant Jewish community left in a Muslim country is in current bete-noire Iran! Many Persian Jews came here after 1979 though
    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Hey Seraphim,

    OK thanks - I guess it all depends on how one wants to approach it from a lexical perspective.

    One question, if you have the time. Practically all the early Christians who came into contact with the Muslims accepted that they were from the progeny of Ishmael, correct? If so, how do you guys interpret this verse in the Bible?
    “And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.” – Genesis 17:20

    Given that, from a point of history, there really was nothing else that came out of that area worth paying attention to - I guess, except oil maybe. Just curious.

    Peace.

    @all depends on how one wants to approach it from a lexical perspective.

    Indeed. It can be approached taking the words in their original sense or in an altered sense.
    This is how ‘us guys’ (I suspect that you mean Christians) interpret the passage on Ishmael, as the Bible says (in context). Muslims interpret it according to their own fantasies.

    For example, the promise regarding Ishmael says that he would make him a ἔθνος μέγα. Mega means ‘big’, ‘large’ in a numerical sense (will increase him and multiply him exceedingly; twelve nations shall he beget). Great in the sense of ‘amount above average’, not in the sense of ‘ability, quality, or eminence considerably above average’.
    The promise made to Abraham is sort of consolation prize for the fact that God refused the demand of Abraham to make Ishmael the inheritor because he was born illegitimate. God commanded Abraham to pass the inheritance to the legitimate son, Isaac. ” I will establish my testament with him, for an everlasting testament, to be a God to him and to his seed after him”. Actually, the real sense of διαθήκη, ברית (berith) is precisely “testament”.
    But God provides also for Ishmael for the sake of Abraham, he was nevertheless a son. He gave him his benediction to become prosperous, but not any special status.
    The fact that “Practically all the early Christians who came into contact with the Muslims accepted that they were from the progeny of Ishmael, correct?” does not imply recognition of their claims that Ishmael was the ‘chosen’ because he was the first-born. It was a simple statement of fact, Ishmael was the progenitor of the Arabs, that’s all. He might have built the Kaaba, might have been the ancestor of Mahomed, Christians have no bones with that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Seraphim,

    Sweet - thanks for the info! Of course, we disagree with it, but thanks for replying in such detail none the less.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Exactly, there were specific engagements in Madinah for sure and the Qur'an calls them out on various things. But as far as praxis, I've never come across a single ruling where a Jew is treated differently than a Christian.

    Of course, there were incidents outside the framework like the communal violence in Fes that I cited, but that's not official practice (as evidenced by the fact that Sidi Ahmad Zarruq [ra] was kicked out for speaking up).

    Peace.

    As an aside, the American Jewish writer Tony Horwitz’ book Baghdad Without a Map has an interesting account of the tiny remaining Jewish community in Yemen in the 1980s, sadly I think even that remnant has left by now. When I was in Istanbul in the early 2000s, our tour guide pointed to some of the remaining Jewish landmarks there, security was present as tensions were already beginning to get worse. I think the only other significant Jewish community left in a Muslim country is in current bete-noire Iran! Many Persian Jews came here after 1979 though

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Morocco:

    https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2016/12/203910/king-mohammed-vi-attends-synagogue-inauguration-shows-commitment-moroccan-jewish-community/

    https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2016/09/197277/moroccan-jews-dancing-while-carrying-photo-of-king-mohammed-vi/

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @headrick
    This attempt at apologetics, as it used to be called in Catholic high school, is doomed.
    I take my stand on the hill with the hopeful, and not across the way with the cynical.
    In the face of human inability to know such deep thing, this is my choice, to pick my clan.
    I hear the voices of hope, and it is poetry. Science offers no conclusions on either side. Some think occams razor would favor just the universe as it is, with no God, but the truth is that there is nothing science has to say about such deep things.
    My personal belief is that Man and God had a early understanding about their relationship - The garden of eden is the symbolic representation, that Man wanted to walk alone in nature, and to arrogate to himself to define the nature of such deep reality, and did not want God behind every question. Like a wild animal that escapes the safety of a benevolent keeper to live in the woods in freedom, because that is the nature of man.
    So- thats what we have. God speaks in a small voice to each person if you wish to listen.

    There is no chance of converting the cynic with metaphysical arguments. The cynics are always ready with an alternative. Physical constants tuned to make life possible? Well we have the m-brane collision theory which generates an infinite number of universes over time, and we are in the one which supports life because here we are standing on our shoes reflecting on it. There is not proof of God because that is the deal man has struck with God. I believe in Jesus dying for our sins, not because I can prove it, but because the poetry of the story is compelling. The same kind of poetry that makes the Maxwell equations - right. because it is simple- and beautiful, and it works.

    If you send kids off to College thinking there is a successful argument for God and Christianity, they will be crushed by their atheist professors, and they will lose their faith. Don't send them off to war with such flawed tools as those presented based on
    physics of the day. Don't please.
    God will speak to them someday, and they come to know, but not based on a proof.
    Poetry of the heart- decide on what hill you want to stand on son.

    Hey headrick,

    I enjoyed your post. It really does come down to being real and honestly coming to terms with the full ramifications with one’s belief.

    Poetry of the heart- decide on what hill you want to stand on son.

    Unfortunately, people don’t give the heart enough credit. But without it – what is the reality (without all the fluff and intellectualization) of the other hill?

    Purpose of life: survive – no matter what the costs (religion, philosophy, etc. – all is irrelevant unless it leads to survival – the truth of it is also irrelevant). We are all just evolved chemical machines.

    Welcome to the jungle.

    Peace.

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    • Agree: Steel T Post
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    Judaism developed in what Coon called segmentary societies that characterize the Mideast and south Asia. They never really "fit in" in the open societies of Europe (especially northern Europe), though at times they thrived materially and even attained great power in some places like Russia and Poland.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmentary_lineage
    Kevin MacDonald has wrote extensively about this in context of Judaism as a group evolutionary strategy
    https://books.google.com/books?id=4cgQmKMMBVgC&
    ‘In Islamic society hostility to the Jew is nontheological
    Hmm, there seem to be some very hostile accounts of Jews in Muslim texts, but I'm guessing these weren't really relevant in praxis during most of their history of cohabitation?

    Hey Marcus,

    Exactly, there were specific engagements in Madinah for sure and the Qur’an calls them out on various things. But as far as praxis, I’ve never come across a single ruling where a Jew is treated differently than a Christian.

    Of course, there were incidents outside the framework like the communal violence in Fes that I cited, but that’s not official practice (as evidenced by the fact that Sidi Ahmad Zarruq [ra] was kicked out for speaking up).

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    As an aside, the American Jewish writer Tony Horwitz' book Baghdad Without a Map has an interesting account of the tiny remaining Jewish community in Yemen in the 1980s, sadly I think even that remnant has left by now. When I was in Istanbul in the early 2000s, our tour guide pointed to some of the remaining Jewish landmarks there, security was present as tensions were already beginning to get worse. I think the only other significant Jewish community left in a Muslim country is in current bete-noire Iran! Many Persian Jews came here after 1979 though
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Like I've stated, historically, they usually found refuge in our lands after getting kicked around by Christians in Europe. I dare say, their current population (which made aliah from Muslim lands as far as Bukhara and Yemen) is largely due to Muslim lands providing them with a buffer zone. We have differences with Bani Israel, for sure, but they are People of the Book. I think Bernard Lewis best explained it:
    “Bernard Lewis, whose Jews of Islam is the most balanced assessment of the position of the Jews under Islamic rule in the Middle Ages, offers his own explanation of why the Jews fared better under Islam than under Christianity.
    ‘In Islamic society hostility to the Jew is nontheological…It is rather the usual attitude of the dominant to the subordinate, of the majority to the minority, without that additional theological and therefore psychological dimension that gives Christian anti-semitism its unique and special character.’”
    Under Crescent and Cross: The Jews in the Middle Ages

    The West is currently nicer to them, but that is a relatively recent turn of events.

    Peace.

    Judaism developed in what Coon called segmentary societies that characterize the Mideast and south Asia. They never really “fit in” in the open societies of Europe (especially northern Europe), though at times they thrived materially and even attained great power in some places like Russia and Poland.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmentary_lineage

    Kevin MacDonald has wrote extensively about this in context of Judaism as a group evolutionary strategy

    https://books.google.com/books?id=4cgQmKMMBVgC&

    ‘In Islamic society hostility to the Jew is nontheological
    Hmm, there seem to be some very hostile accounts of Jews in Muslim texts, but I’m guessing these weren’t really relevant in praxis during most of their history of cohabitation?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Exactly, there were specific engagements in Madinah for sure and the Qur'an calls them out on various things. But as far as praxis, I've never come across a single ruling where a Jew is treated differently than a Christian.

    Of course, there were incidents outside the framework like the communal violence in Fes that I cited, but that's not official practice (as evidenced by the fact that Sidi Ahmad Zarruq [ra] was kicked out for speaking up).

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • One could argue that God and Evil have one thing in common: both are beyond understanding.

    So, the dichotomy of ‘good and evil’ is misconceived. It should be ‘good and bad’.
    ‘Good’ and ‘Bad’ operate on the human level, and we can understand why something seems or feels ‘good’ to us while something else seems or feels ‘bad’. It is on the human scale of experience and comprehension.

    In contrast, God is a kind of goodness that is beyond human understanding. It works on the cosmic scale across eternity. So, what seems ‘good’ on the human scale cannot apply to all of space and eternity. And what is ‘good’ in the ind of God is simply beyond our grasp of its ultimate purpose or hidden meanings.
    Likewise, Evil is a kind of badness that is beyond our understanding. It is a malevolent force in the cosmos that is beyond our power of comprehension.

    Just like the circle in which the far right and far left converge, one could argue that the far-good of God and far-bad of Evil converge at the opposite end of the circle. They are NOT the same but they both seem nihilistic to us since our comprehension cannot go beyond the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ on the human scale of experience.

    This is why MOTHMAN PROPHECIES is such an interesting movie. We can’t tell if the Mothman is an angelic figure that warns us to save us or a demonic force that haunts us to harm/kill us. It seems both savior and destroyer, both a messenger of truth and teller of lies. Or maybe we are just misreading the messages.

    He giveth, he taketh away.

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  • @Marcus
    More evidence the Jewish-Muslim alliance is going strong
    https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manhattan/19-rabbis-arrested-trump-hotel-protest-travel-ban-article-1.2965970

    Hey Marcus,

    Like I’ve stated, historically, they usually found refuge in our lands after getting kicked around by Christians in Europe. I dare say, their current population (which made aliah from Muslim lands as far as Bukhara and Yemen) is largely due to Muslim lands providing them with a buffer zone. We have differences with Bani Israel, for sure, but they are People of the Book. I think Bernard Lewis best explained it:
    “Bernard Lewis, whose Jews of Islam is the most balanced assessment of the position of the Jews under Islamic rule in the Middle Ages, offers his own explanation of why the Jews fared better under Islam than under Christianity.
    ‘In Islamic society hostility to the Jew is nontheological…It is rather the usual attitude of the dominant to the subordinate, of the majority to the minority, without that additional theological and therefore psychological dimension that gives Christian anti-semitism its unique and special character.’”
    Under Crescent and Cross: The Jews in the Middle Ages

    The West is currently nicer to them, but that is a relatively recent turn of events.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    Judaism developed in what Coon called segmentary societies that characterize the Mideast and south Asia. They never really "fit in" in the open societies of Europe (especially northern Europe), though at times they thrived materially and even attained great power in some places like Russia and Poland.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmentary_lineage
    Kevin MacDonald has wrote extensively about this in context of Judaism as a group evolutionary strategy
    https://books.google.com/books?id=4cgQmKMMBVgC&
    ‘In Islamic society hostility to the Jew is nontheological
    Hmm, there seem to be some very hostile accounts of Jews in Muslim texts, but I'm guessing these weren't really relevant in praxis during most of their history of cohabitation?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Hey Seraphim,

    OK thanks - I guess it all depends on how one wants to approach it from a lexical perspective.

    One question, if you have the time. Practically all the early Christians who came into contact with the Muslims accepted that they were from the progeny of Ishmael, correct? If so, how do you guys interpret this verse in the Bible?
    “And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.” – Genesis 17:20

    Given that, from a point of history, there really was nothing else that came out of that area worth paying attention to - I guess, except oil maybe. Just curious.

    Peace.
    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Like I've stated, historically, they usually found refuge in our lands after getting kicked around by Christians in Europe. I dare say, their current population (which made aliah from Muslim lands as far as Bukhara and Yemen) is largely due to Muslim lands providing them with a buffer zone. We have differences with Bani Israel, for sure, but they are People of the Book. I think Bernard Lewis best explained it:
    “Bernard Lewis, whose Jews of Islam is the most balanced assessment of the position of the Jews under Islamic rule in the Middle Ages, offers his own explanation of why the Jews fared better under Islam than under Christianity.
    ‘In Islamic society hostility to the Jew is nontheological…It is rather the usual attitude of the dominant to the subordinate, of the majority to the minority, without that additional theological and therefore psychological dimension that gives Christian anti-semitism its unique and special character.’”
    Under Crescent and Cross: The Jews in the Middle Ages

    The West is currently nicer to them, but that is a relatively recent turn of events.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @headrick
    This attempt at apologetics, as it used to be called in Catholic high school, is doomed.
    I take my stand on the hill with the hopeful, and not across the way with the cynical.
    In the face of human inability to know such deep thing, this is my choice, to pick my clan.
    I hear the voices of hope, and it is poetry. Science offers no conclusions on either side. Some think occams razor would favor just the universe as it is, with no God, but the truth is that there is nothing science has to say about such deep things.
    My personal belief is that Man and God had a early understanding about their relationship - The garden of eden is the symbolic representation, that Man wanted to walk alone in nature, and to arrogate to himself to define the nature of such deep reality, and did not want God behind every question. Like a wild animal that escapes the safety of a benevolent keeper to live in the woods in freedom, because that is the nature of man.
    So- thats what we have. God speaks in a small voice to each person if you wish to listen.

    There is no chance of converting the cynic with metaphysical arguments. The cynics are always ready with an alternative. Physical constants tuned to make life possible? Well we have the m-brane collision theory which generates an infinite number of universes over time, and we are in the one which supports life because here we are standing on our shoes reflecting on it. There is not proof of God because that is the deal man has struck with God. I believe in Jesus dying for our sins, not because I can prove it, but because the poetry of the story is compelling. The same kind of poetry that makes the Maxwell equations - right. because it is simple- and beautiful, and it works.

    If you send kids off to College thinking there is a successful argument for God and Christianity, they will be crushed by their atheist professors, and they will lose their faith. Don't send them off to war with such flawed tools as those presented based on
    physics of the day. Don't please.
    God will speak to them someday, and they come to know, but not based on a proof.
    Poetry of the heart- decide on what hill you want to stand on son.

    Poetry of the heart indeed!

    There’s real poetry in the real world
    Science is the poetry of reality

    The Poetry of Reality
    Symphony of Science
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Cd36WJ79z4

    I don’t think universities make as many atheists as Bible-thumpers do.

    “Indeed I think that every Christian sect gives a great handle to Atheism by their general dogma that, without a revelation, there would not be sufficient proof of the being of a god.”

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, from Monticello, April 11, 1823

    I commune with God every day, no foreign Jewguru’s revelation necessary. Deus, sive Natura.

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  • @skrik
    Thanks for the response; I 'match' your humility with carpe diem.

    [anecdote] I went to a doctor; I said: "When I do this, it hurts."

    He said: "Do not do this!" [/anecdote]

    Normally, I do not 'do' video; I find it a thin medium, with too much time needed, far too much extraneous detail and not enough information per squandered bandwidth/time-unit. [My 'worst case' video was "Century of the Self," but perseverance paid off with my discovery of Bernays.]

    I 'match' your "Denial of Death" with "Island". To be fair, I add a clue: 'Huxley.'

    Now, what we have here is probably [deliberate] 'leadership' failure, certainly [dis-informed] 'parental' failure, but of whatever sort of failure, a wicked error, one of the very worst.

    Back to my doctor, here this = never put the scare of death into any of your [let alone immature = 'below the age of reason'] child(ren)!

    Accept/apply that, problem practically solved. "Island" is not perfect, but one has to start somewhere.

    Back to the video, I do not accept that the worst that humans do to each other [= kill] is caused by individual or mass fear of death; two 'perfect' examples can be directly observed in the ME, whereby one group murders to steal soil, another oil. rgds

    I concur with you about learning from video, it often has a very “thin” signal to noise ratio. I do like the documentary I recommended, especially with the original video footage of the experiments provided. But there are two books published on TMT now for those who prefer reading, and I’ll include in this list Becker’s book that inspired the research:

    • Ernest Becker (1973) The Denial of Death. Free Press.
    • Stephen Cave (2012) Immortality: The Quest to Live Forever and How It Drives Civilization. Crown.
    • Sheldon Solomon and Jeff Greenberg (2015) The Worm at the Core: On the Role of Death in Life. Random House.

    As far as the aggression in the middle-east, the TMT researchers actually use your example.

    Paradoxically, an unconscious fear of death may underlie much of the motivation behind terrorism and reactions to terrorism, maintains psychologist Tom Pyszczynski, PhD, of the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs. Along with colleagues Jeff Greenberg, PhD, and Sheldon Solomon, PhD, Pyszczynski developed “terror management theory,” which holds that people use culture and religion to protect themselves from a fear of death that lies on the fringes of awareness.

    DeAngelis, T. (2009) Understanding terrorism. Monitor on Psychology. Vol 40, No. 10, p. 60.

    Anyway, take it for what it’s worth.

    I also concur with your admonition “to never put the scare of death into any of your children!” Yours is outstanding advice.

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    • Replies: @skrik
    G'day again. I did watch the video before my previous response and yes, the experiments are impressive.

    "Paradoxically, an unconscious fear of death may underlie much of the motivation behind terrorism and reactions to terrorism"
     
    This is, possibly, simply too convenient. We do know, for instance, that 'modern terrorism' was largely invented by the alien interlopers into Palestine, see the King David Hotel bombing, say. The perps were setting out to steal an entire country, or even more, deploying genocidal violence as their main tool. Not much to do with any unconscious fear of death there, despite their crooked claims re persecution. Then, the Al-Qaeda types didn't appear in response to the interlopers' aggression so much, as were manufactured by 'the West,' including perverting a branch of Islam as 'subversion,' also with a big helping hand from the West. 'Too convenient' also, is the idea that fear of death is somewhat universal, thus 'letting off' the psychopathic tyrant 'leadership.' Of course, the fear of death widely exists, but as a 'prime mover' requires further study by me. I found the "Denial of Death" book in the public domain:

    https://archive.org/details/DenialOfDeath

    My concept of the 'population at large' is that they are mostly decent people, but the 'leadership' has gone astray. Representatives are no longer 'honest' [if they ever were]; they obviously sell-out, to $s, erring ideology and/or are coerced, most often by some filthy 5th column. I see the villains all together as:

    The US rogue regime = US-M/I/C/4a†-plex, with dog-wagging-tail, its illegitimate sprog the Zionist/Israeli rogue regime + Js = I/J/Z-plex, all components rife with corruption.

    a = academic = econ, psy, leg et al.; 4 = MSM+PFBCs, † = churches

    add a few significant stragglers like $ = banksters & ¿ = spies

    Q: Why academia? A: Well, economists largely support 'neoliberal' erring ideology, psychologists prepare and propagate the 'Bernays haze' and lawyers 'tolerate' torture, say, plus aggressive warring, amongst other sins. As with the traitor-politicians, it's the same corrupting forces at work, again $s, erring ideology and/or filthy 5th column coercion. Again of course, that could just be the visible surface, with fear of death being the constant undercurrent. As I say, more work for me to do, and thanks for your engagement. rgds

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • This attempt at apologetics, as it used to be called in Catholic high school, is doomed.
    I take my stand on the hill with the hopeful, and not across the way with the cynical.
    In the face of human inability to know such deep thing, this is my choice, to pick my clan.
    I hear the voices of hope, and it is poetry. Science offers no conclusions on either side. Some think occams razor would favor just the universe as it is, with no God, but the truth is that there is nothing science has to say about such deep things.
    My personal belief is that Man and God had a early understanding about their relationship – The garden of eden is the symbolic representation, that Man wanted to walk alone in nature, and to arrogate to himself to define the nature of such deep reality, and did not want God behind every question. Like a wild animal that escapes the safety of a benevolent keeper to live in the woods in freedom, because that is the nature of man.
    So- thats what we have. God speaks in a small voice to each person if you wish to listen.

    There is no chance of converting the cynic with metaphysical arguments. The cynics are always ready with an alternative. Physical constants tuned to make life possible? Well we have the m-brane collision theory which generates an infinite number of universes over time, and we are in the one which supports life because here we are standing on our shoes reflecting on it. There is not proof of God because that is the deal man has struck with God. I believe in Jesus dying for our sins, not because I can prove it, but because the poetry of the story is compelling. The same kind of poetry that makes the Maxwell equations – right. because it is simple- and beautiful, and it works.

    If you send kids off to College thinking there is a successful argument for God and Christianity, they will be crushed by their atheist professors, and they will lose their faith. Don’t send them off to war with such flawed tools as those presented based on
    physics of the day. Don’t please.
    God will speak to them someday, and they come to know, but not based on a proof.
    Poetry of the heart- decide on what hill you want to stand on son.

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    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    Poetry of the heart indeed!

    There's real poetry in the real world
    Science is the poetry of reality

    The Poetry of Reality
    Symphony of Science
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Cd36WJ79z4
     

    I don't think universities make as many atheists as Bible-thumpers do.

    "Indeed I think that every Christian sect gives a great handle to Atheism by their general dogma that, without a revelation, there would not be sufficient proof of the being of a god."

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, from Monticello, April 11, 1823
     

    I commune with God every day, no foreign Jewguru's revelation necessary. Deus, sive Natura.
    , @Talha
    Hey headrick,

    I enjoyed your post. It really does come down to being real and honestly coming to terms with the full ramifications with one's belief.


    Poetry of the heart- decide on what hill you want to stand on son.
     
    Unfortunately, people don't give the heart enough credit. But without it - what is the reality (without all the fluff and intellectualization) of the other hill?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK2a-1K0Sdg

    Purpose of life: survive - no matter what the costs (religion, philosophy, etc. - all is irrelevant unless it leads to survival - the truth of it is also irrelevant). We are all just evolved chemical machines.

    Welcome to the jungle.

    Peace.

    , @Seraphim
    @God speaks in a small voice to each person if you wish to listen.

    If you believe in Jesus dying for our sins, not because I can prove it, but because the poetry of the story is compelling, how much more compelling will be God's own big voice when he spoke to the Prophets and the Apostles when he showed himself to them?

    "16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased*. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star (φωσφόρος) arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:16-20).
    The poetry of the heart is the light of the day star arising your hearts.

    *16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased (Mathew 3: 16-17).

    Right, don’t send the kids off to war with flimsy tools like the Occam razor. Give them the right ones:

    "10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints" (Ephesians 6:10-18)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Seraphim
    Heresy/haíresis means "a strong, distinctive opinion", "that which is chosen, a chosen course of thought and action; hence one's chosen opinion, tenet", by extension "a body of men separating themselves from others and following their own tenets (a sect or party)", in the II century A.D., 'hairesis' had become a standard term for philosophical school.
    The term is used in the NT of individual "parties (sects)" that operated within Judaism and Christianity.
    For Saint John Damascene Islam is “the superstition (σκεια) of the Ishmaelites, being the forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites". It was not a 'heresy' from within Judaism or Christianity.
    "And so down to the time of Heraclius they [the Ishmaelites] were very great idolaters. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his OWN HERESY". Obviously, John understood the term heresy in its meaning of "sect, following, party, school" and that is the reason why the sect was called Mahomedanism.

    Hey Seraphim,

    OK thanks – I guess it all depends on how one wants to approach it from a lexical perspective.

    One question, if you have the time. Practically all the early Christians who came into contact with the Muslims accepted that they were from the progeny of Ishmael, correct? If so, how do you guys interpret this verse in the Bible?
    “And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.” – Genesis 17:20

    Given that, from a point of history, there really was nothing else that came out of that area worth paying attention to – I guess, except oil maybe. Just curious.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    More evidence the Jewish-Muslim alliance is going strong
    https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manhattan/19-rabbis-arrested-trump-hotel-protest-travel-ban-article-1.2965970
    , @Seraphim
    @all depends on how one wants to approach it from a lexical perspective.

    Indeed. It can be approached taking the words in their original sense or in an altered sense.
    This is how 'us guys' (I suspect that you mean Christians) interpret the passage on Ishmael, as the Bible says (in context). Muslims interpret it according to their own fantasies.

    For example, the promise regarding Ishmael says that he would make him a ἔθνος μέγα. Mega means 'big', 'large' in a numerical sense (will increase him and multiply him exceedingly; twelve nations shall he beget). Great in the sense of 'amount above average', not in the sense of 'ability, quality, or eminence considerably above average'.
    The promise made to Abraham is sort of consolation prize for the fact that God refused the demand of Abraham to make Ishmael the inheritor because he was born illegitimate. God commanded Abraham to pass the inheritance to the legitimate son, Isaac. " I will establish my testament with him, for an everlasting testament, to be a God to him and to his seed after him". Actually, the real sense of διαθήκη, ברית (berith) is precisely "testament".
    But God provides also for Ishmael for the sake of Abraham, he was nevertheless a son. He gave him his benediction to become prosperous, but not any special status.
    The fact that "Practically all the early Christians who came into contact with the Muslims accepted that they were from the progeny of Ishmael, correct?" does not imply recognition of their claims that Ishmael was the 'chosen' because he was the first-born. It was a simple statement of fact, Ishmael was the progenitor of the Arabs, that's all. He might have built the Kaaba, might have been the ancestor of Mahomed, Christians have no bones with that.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Steel T Post
    I concur with you that people invent Gawds to pretend that an afterlife exists. Afterlife belief ameliorates their mortality salience, i.e., fear of death. This has actually been proven scientifically, with over 400 empirical experiments in a field called Terror Management Theory (Greenberg, Solomon, Pyszczynski, 1986). Interestingly, TMT has proven that even atheists will embrace religion to assuage their fear of death.

    Heflick, N., Goldenberg, J. (2012) No atheists in foxholes: Arguments for (but not against) afterlife belief buffers mortality salience effects for atheists. British journal of social psychology. Volume 51, Issue 2, pp. 385–392.
     
    The best introduction to Terror Management Theory is a documentary produced by the Ernest Becker Foundation, which includes video of Greenberg, Solomon, and Pyszczynski's ingenious mortality salience experiments, found here:

    Denial of Death
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hi1C4NNnV4
     
    Of course, an afterlife belief is only one way to ameliorate mortality salience. I prefer the path of humility, i.e., accepting life for what it is, fleeting.

    Kesebir, P. (2014) A quiet ego quiets death anxiety: Humility as an existential anxiety buffer. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Vol 106(4), pp. 610-623.
     
    Those who desire heaven reveal themselves as egotistical narcissists. Nobody expresses that afterlife narcissism better than good ol' Rust Cohle:

    The ontological fallacy of expecting a light at the end of the tunnel, well, that’s what the preacher sells, same as a shrink. See, the preacher, he encourages your capacity for illusion. The he tells you it’s a fucking virtue. Always a buck to be had doing that. And it’s such a desperate sense of entitlement, isn’t it? Surely this is all for me. Me. Me, me, me. I, I. I’m so fucking important. I’m so fucking important, then, right? F--k you.

    –Rust Cohle, True Detective, Season 1, Episode 3
     

    PS RTFM!

    One of the 1st steps towards my own enlightenment was the realisation that there is no manual.

    I observed couples, my friends, acquaintances and strangers, getting married and/or having children, and overwhelmingly stuffing it up. I wondered, where/how do the errors come from, or in other words, how to do it right?

    I spent a lot of time/effort on that problem, and developed my own ideas over the years, but now, given the villainy almost everywhere one looks, plus the obvious bankruptcy of most of academia, no manual is on purpose, actively prevented by the [totally undemocratic] tyrants who rule over us. So also, the fear of death is actively promoted by those same tyrants. rgds

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    • Agree: Steel T Post
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Steel T Post
    I concur with you that people invent Gawds to pretend that an afterlife exists. Afterlife belief ameliorates their mortality salience, i.e., fear of death. This has actually been proven scientifically, with over 400 empirical experiments in a field called Terror Management Theory (Greenberg, Solomon, Pyszczynski, 1986). Interestingly, TMT has proven that even atheists will embrace religion to assuage their fear of death.

    Heflick, N., Goldenberg, J. (2012) No atheists in foxholes: Arguments for (but not against) afterlife belief buffers mortality salience effects for atheists. British journal of social psychology. Volume 51, Issue 2, pp. 385–392.
     
    The best introduction to Terror Management Theory is a documentary produced by the Ernest Becker Foundation, which includes video of Greenberg, Solomon, and Pyszczynski's ingenious mortality salience experiments, found here:

    Denial of Death
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hi1C4NNnV4
     
    Of course, an afterlife belief is only one way to ameliorate mortality salience. I prefer the path of humility, i.e., accepting life for what it is, fleeting.

    Kesebir, P. (2014) A quiet ego quiets death anxiety: Humility as an existential anxiety buffer. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Vol 106(4), pp. 610-623.
     
    Those who desire heaven reveal themselves as egotistical narcissists. Nobody expresses that afterlife narcissism better than good ol' Rust Cohle:

    The ontological fallacy of expecting a light at the end of the tunnel, well, that’s what the preacher sells, same as a shrink. See, the preacher, he encourages your capacity for illusion. The he tells you it’s a fucking virtue. Always a buck to be had doing that. And it’s such a desperate sense of entitlement, isn’t it? Surely this is all for me. Me. Me, me, me. I, I. I’m so fucking important. I’m so fucking important, then, right? F--k you.

    –Rust Cohle, True Detective, Season 1, Episode 3
     

    Thanks for the response; I ‘match’ your humility with carpe diem.

    [anecdote] I went to a doctor; I said: “When I do this, it hurts.”

    He said: “Do not do this!” [/anecdote]

    Normally, I do not ‘do’ video; I find it a thin medium, with too much time needed, far too much extraneous detail and not enough information per squandered bandwidth/time-unit. [My 'worst case' video was "Century of the Self," but perseverance paid off with my discovery of Bernays.]

    I ‘match’ your “Denial of Death” with “Island”. To be fair, I add a clue: ‘Huxley.’

    Now, what we have here is probably [deliberate] ‘leadership’ failure, certainly [dis-informed] ‘parental’ failure, but of whatever sort of failure, a wicked error, one of the very worst.

    Back to my doctor, here this = never put the scare of death into any of your [let alone immature = 'below the age of reason'] child(ren)!

    Accept/apply that, problem practically solved. “Island” is not perfect, but one has to start somewhere.

    Back to the video, I do not accept that the worst that humans do to each other [= kill] is caused by individual or mass fear of death; two ‘perfect’ examples can be directly observed in the ME, whereby one group murders to steal soil, another oil. rgds

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    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    I concur with you about learning from video, it often has a very "thin" signal to noise ratio. I do like the documentary I recommended, especially with the original video footage of the experiments provided. But there are two books published on TMT now for those who prefer reading, and I'll include in this list Becker's book that inspired the research:

    • Ernest Becker (1973) The Denial of Death. Free Press.
    • Stephen Cave (2012) Immortality: The Quest to Live Forever and How It Drives Civilization. Crown.
    • Sheldon Solomon and Jeff Greenberg (2015) The Worm at the Core: On the Role of Death in Life. Random House.

    As far as the aggression in the middle-east, the TMT researchers actually use your example.

    Paradoxically, an unconscious fear of death may underlie much of the motivation behind terrorism and reactions to terrorism, maintains psychologist Tom Pyszczynski, PhD, of the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs. Along with colleagues Jeff Greenberg, PhD, and Sheldon Solomon, PhD, Pyszczynski developed "terror management theory," which holds that people use culture and religion to protect themselves from a fear of death that lies on the fringes of awareness.

    DeAngelis, T. (2009) Understanding terrorism. Monitor on Psychology. Vol 40, No. 10, p. 60.
     
    Anyway, take it for what it's worth.

    I also concur with your admonition "to never put the scare of death into any of your children!" Yours is outstanding advice.
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  • @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Well, if you don't believe in the narrative, you are either going to come to one or the other conclusion; it is an Arab Christian heresy or an Arab Judaic heresy - or maybe an amalgam. There isn't much direct evidence for this coming out of the sands of Arabia honestly so it is a stretch, but, like I said - if one insists on not wanting to accept its narrative of Divine origin, one is forced to come to that interpretation. Now, early Nestorian Christians like John Bar Penkaye (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/john_bar_penkaye_history_15_trans.htm#Book14) already mentioned that the conquering Arabs held Christianity and the monks in esteem - and John of Damascus also gets a good amount of the Islamic belief about the Son of Mary (pbuh) correct in his polemics. And most of the early folk thought it was a Christian heresy (since it holds Christ [pbuh] and his mother [pbuh] in honor) - so I guess the jury is out on which heresy we really are according to non-Muslims. :)

    Now, I believe you are aware regarding how the Byzantine Empire was handling its relationship with non-Chalcedonian Christians at the time, then you'll realize what situation the Muslims might have been in once Constantinople found out that there was a strong new heresy brewing on its Southern borders. Whether that detail was taken account into their calculations or not; it was an impressively sagacious move on the part of the Companions (ra) to punch Byzantium fast and brutally hard, square in the face while it was still breathing heavily from its recent efforts against the Sassanids.

    Peace.

    Yes, Monophysites would have shed no tears for the departing “Greek” authorities, Melkite (Catholic) was originally a derogatory term, “king’s man,” and Q 5:82 contrasts the Christians very favorably to Jews. The only explanation would be a later date for the composition of the Quran, very shortly after a break with Judaism. However, i believe the earliest Christian accounts of the Arab attackers were pretty hostile, so it is possible.

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  • @Seraphim
    OK, OK, please don't stop.
    Cheers (Anything but Bourbon or the Budweiser horse piss).

    Seraphim prays to a common White man and gets his wish fulfilled.

    Try getting your prayers to a Magical Jew answered like that. Go ahead, be nice and say please. (John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.)

    Goes to show who is more powerful and good. :)

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  • @Steel T Post
    I do thank you for deeming me your intellectual superior, several grades above the "little child" level of understanding that the Magical Rabbi demanded of his dupes in Luke 18:17. Jesus has a valid point; hell, he's shoving it right into your face: The afterlife narrative hustled by the Happy Merchant is much like booze; both numb the pain of life for those incapable of handling the realities of life, including mortality salience, like an grown man.

    “Two great European narcotics, alcohol and Christianity.” ―Friedrich Nietzsche
     
    The mature attitude to facing death is Epicurean. "Death is nothing to us."

    • Being dead involves neither pleasure nor pain.
    • The only thing that is bad for us is pain.
    • Thus, death is not bad for us.

    No liquid jew necessary.

    OK, OK, please don’t stop.
    Cheers (Anything but Bourbon or the Budweiser horse piss).

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    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    Seraphim prays to a common White man and gets his wish fulfilled.

    Try getting your prayers to a Magical Jew answered like that. Go ahead, be nice and say please. (John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.)

    Goes to show who is more powerful and good. :)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @dontaxme
    Whether there's a God or not, and whether we can ever know or not, and granting that science is not perfect or necessarily all-encompassing, what has religion contributed to the well-being of mankind except for wishful thinking? If that can even be considered a contribution.

    ” What has religion contributed to the well-being of mankind except for wishful thinking”.

    Well to start with how about the unsurpassed magnificent Baroque architecture, painting, sculpting, brought forth by the counter-reformation.

    All one has to do to understand the impact of religion on the art world is to tour the breathtaking baroque Dom of Passau, or to view the gilded baroque altar by Baltasar Neuman in the cathedral of Worms, and to sense the overwhelming otherworldy quality of beauty before onesself, and the question is answered.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” society member since 1973, and pro jazz artist.

    PS I am an atheist myself, but am not blinded to to obvious.

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  • @Seraphim
    The main reason for following your teenager's rants is for the comic relief they provide. Keep going, it's getting better every time. Laughing is the best cure for 'Terror Management".

    I do thank you for deeming me your intellectual superior, several grades above the “little child” level of understanding that the Magical Rabbi demanded of his dupes in Luke 18:17. Jesus has a valid point; hell, he’s shoving it right into your face: The afterlife narrative hustled by the Happy Merchant is much like booze; both numb the pain of life for those incapable of handling the realities of life, including mortality salience, like an grown man.

    “Two great European narcotics, alcohol and Christianity.” ―Friedrich Nietzsche

    The mature attitude to facing death is Epicurean. “Death is nothing to us.”

    • Being dead involves neither pleasure nor pain.
    • The only thing that is bad for us is pain.
    • Thus, death is not bad for us.

    No liquid jew necessary.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    OK, OK, please don't stop.
    Cheers (Anything but Bourbon or the Budweiser horse piss).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Well, if you don't believe in the narrative, you are either going to come to one or the other conclusion; it is an Arab Christian heresy or an Arab Judaic heresy - or maybe an amalgam. There isn't much direct evidence for this coming out of the sands of Arabia honestly so it is a stretch, but, like I said - if one insists on not wanting to accept its narrative of Divine origin, one is forced to come to that interpretation. Now, early Nestorian Christians like John Bar Penkaye (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/john_bar_penkaye_history_15_trans.htm#Book14) already mentioned that the conquering Arabs held Christianity and the monks in esteem - and John of Damascus also gets a good amount of the Islamic belief about the Son of Mary (pbuh) correct in his polemics. And most of the early folk thought it was a Christian heresy (since it holds Christ [pbuh] and his mother [pbuh] in honor) - so I guess the jury is out on which heresy we really are according to non-Muslims. :)

    Now, I believe you are aware regarding how the Byzantine Empire was handling its relationship with non-Chalcedonian Christians at the time, then you'll realize what situation the Muslims might have been in once Constantinople found out that there was a strong new heresy brewing on its Southern borders. Whether that detail was taken account into their calculations or not; it was an impressively sagacious move on the part of the Companions (ra) to punch Byzantium fast and brutally hard, square in the face while it was still breathing heavily from its recent efforts against the Sassanids.

    Peace.

    Heresy/haíresis means “a strong, distinctive opinion”, “that which is chosen, a chosen course of thought and action; hence one’s chosen opinion, tenet”, by extension “a body of men separating themselves from others and following their own tenets (a sect or party)”, in the II century A.D., ‘hairesis’ had become a standard term for philosophical school.
    The term is used in the NT of individual “parties (sects)” that operated within Judaism and Christianity.
    For Saint John Damascene Islam is “the superstition (σκεια) of the Ishmaelites, being the forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites”. It was not a ‘heresy’ from within Judaism or Christianity.
    “And so down to the time of Heraclius they [the Ishmaelites] were very great idolaters. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his OWN HERESY”. Obviously, John understood the term heresy in its meaning of “sect, following, party, school” and that is the reason why the sect was called Mahomedanism.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Seraphim,

    OK thanks - I guess it all depends on how one wants to approach it from a lexical perspective.

    One question, if you have the time. Practically all the early Christians who came into contact with the Muslims accepted that they were from the progeny of Ishmael, correct? If so, how do you guys interpret this verse in the Bible?
    “And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.” – Genesis 17:20

    Given that, from a point of history, there really was nothing else that came out of that area worth paying attention to - I guess, except oil maybe. Just curious.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    Yes, the bewildering and often grotesque milieu of the Hellenistic Near East was fertile ground for the development of a new religion, and the imposition of a unitary imperial rule against Jewish resistance was the final catalyst. Philo of Alexandria is also a good example of the oriental/hellenic syncretism. The Greeks had lost their martial vigor and become orientalized by the time of the Roman conquest, but Egyptian Christianity became a proxy for national resistance to the Greco-Romans by the native population, one of the reasons it converted so rapidly. You can still see the cosmetic Egyptian influence
    https://ivarfjeld.com/2012/01/21/the-pope-acts-like-a-copy-cat-of-egyptian-pagan-kings/
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    • Agree: Steel T Post
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    Certainly Muhammad and his pals had plenty of interactions with Christians, but I see Islam as essentially an evangelical offshoot of Judaism: the goal of the latter is social organization to maintain the community as a nation among nations, the goal of the former is mobilization for expanding the community by force or persuasion. Both are intensely concerned with differentiating themselves from outsiders, you could call them negative belief systems. The Hagarism theory may be a bridge too far, but it seems reasonable that the two didn't become distinguishable until later than is usually accepted.

    Here's the rest of Jung's analysis, he clearly saw Hitler as an heir of the Abrahamic prophets rather than mere strongman
    http://christopherdickey.blogspot.com/2016/11/carl-jung-on-hitler-stalin-and_5.html

    Hey Marcus,

    Well, if you don’t believe in the narrative, you are either going to come to one or the other conclusion; it is an Arab Christian heresy or an Arab Judaic heresy – or maybe an amalgam. There isn’t much direct evidence for this coming out of the sands of Arabia honestly so it is a stretch, but, like I said – if one insists on not wanting to accept its narrative of Divine origin, one is forced to come to that interpretation. Now, early Nestorian Christians like John Bar Penkaye (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/john_bar_penkaye_history_15_trans.htm#Book14) already mentioned that the conquering Arabs held Christianity and the monks in esteem – and John of Damascus also gets a good amount of the Islamic belief about the Son of Mary (pbuh) correct in his polemics. And most of the early folk thought it was a Christian heresy (since it holds Christ [pbuh] and his mother [pbuh] in honor) – so I guess the jury is out on which heresy we really are according to non-Muslims. :)

    Now, I believe you are aware regarding how the Byzantine Empire was handling its relationship with non-Chalcedonian Christians at the time, then you’ll realize what situation the Muslims might have been in once Constantinople found out that there was a strong new heresy brewing on its Southern borders. Whether that detail was taken account into their calculations or not; it was an impressively sagacious move on the part of the Companions (ra) to punch Byzantium fast and brutally hard, square in the face while it was still breathing heavily from its recent efforts against the Sassanids.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Heresy/haíresis means "a strong, distinctive opinion", "that which is chosen, a chosen course of thought and action; hence one's chosen opinion, tenet", by extension "a body of men separating themselves from others and following their own tenets (a sect or party)", in the II century A.D., 'hairesis' had become a standard term for philosophical school.
    The term is used in the NT of individual "parties (sects)" that operated within Judaism and Christianity.
    For Saint John Damascene Islam is “the superstition (σκεια) of the Ishmaelites, being the forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites". It was not a 'heresy' from within Judaism or Christianity.
    "And so down to the time of Heraclius they [the Ishmaelites] were very great idolaters. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his OWN HERESY". Obviously, John understood the term heresy in its meaning of "sect, following, party, school" and that is the reason why the sect was called Mahomedanism.
    , @Marcus
    Yes, Monophysites would have shed no tears for the departing "Greek" authorities, Melkite (Catholic) was originally a derogatory term, "king's man," and Q 5:82 contrasts the Christians very favorably to Jews. The only explanation would be a later date for the composition of the Quran, very shortly after a break with Judaism. However, i believe the earliest Christian accounts of the Arab attackers were pretty hostile, so it is possible.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    I cannot speak to Judaism - not my expertise.

    But bro - you've got to be kidding me - if you know my tradition as thoroughly as I have studied it, then you know that; for certain the political realm is and always has been part of its domain for it has something to say about how humans interact - and social organization is one aspect. But, from just looking at the literature - there are far, far more works written on spirituality than there are on the realm of politics or government - this is not debatable. Politics/government is one of the branches of the legal tradition and probably gets far more attention in an increasingly materialist world because, what else are they going to scrutinize or use as a yardstick to judge except that which manifests itself materially?

    We talked about Russell before, remember? Look, if he wanted to cast a statement without attention to the writings of men like Ibn Arabi (ra), Mawlana Rumi (ra), Ibn Ata Illah (ra), Abdullah ibn Alawi al-Haddad (ra), and the numerous founders of the Sufi Orders - then, honestly, what can I say other than; why should I take his words seriously?

    I respect some of Jung's works that I have been exposed to. I see your Jung and raise you a Gandhi :) - who had words of praise for him - and a Goethe (he wrote some great poetry about the Prophet [pbuh]):
    "In this context, perhaps it is helpful to rememebr a time in the formation of German national identity where Islam was not incompatible with being German. Goethe wrote to the artist Johann Meyer: 'and so we must abide in Islam (that means: absolute devotion to God's will)...' That the man who would become Germany's national poet saw Islam as a concept that could be practiced by anyone (not necessarily as a religion) is striking. Goethe was not the only one: Hammer, a Catholic, would have his own grave stone imported from the Ottoman Empire, with verses from the Quran written on it."
    Religion, Identity and Politics: Germany and Turkey in Interaction

    It is unfortunate that we live in a time and circumstance when the historic tie between the deeply spiritual and the externally legal (Can anyone question that Junayd al-Baghdadi [ra] was both an accomplished Sufi and jurist?) in our tradition has been cast into doubt. A hundred or so years ago, this wouldn't even have been a question worth discussing.

    Peace.

    Certainly Muhammad and his pals had plenty of interactions with Christians, but I see Islam as essentially an evangelical offshoot of Judaism: the goal of the latter is social organization to maintain the community as a nation among nations, the goal of the former is mobilization for expanding the community by force or persuasion. Both are intensely concerned with differentiating themselves from outsiders, you could call them negative belief systems. The Hagarism theory may be a bridge too far, but it seems reasonable that the two didn’t become distinguishable until later than is usually accepted.

    Here’s the rest of Jung’s analysis, he clearly saw Hitler as an heir of the Abrahamic prophets rather than mere strongman

    http://christopherdickey.blogspot.com/2016/11/carl-jung-on-hitler-stalin-and_5.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Well, if you don't believe in the narrative, you are either going to come to one or the other conclusion; it is an Arab Christian heresy or an Arab Judaic heresy - or maybe an amalgam. There isn't much direct evidence for this coming out of the sands of Arabia honestly so it is a stretch, but, like I said - if one insists on not wanting to accept its narrative of Divine origin, one is forced to come to that interpretation. Now, early Nestorian Christians like John Bar Penkaye (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/john_bar_penkaye_history_15_trans.htm#Book14) already mentioned that the conquering Arabs held Christianity and the monks in esteem - and John of Damascus also gets a good amount of the Islamic belief about the Son of Mary (pbuh) correct in his polemics. And most of the early folk thought it was a Christian heresy (since it holds Christ [pbuh] and his mother [pbuh] in honor) - so I guess the jury is out on which heresy we really are according to non-Muslims. :)

    Now, I believe you are aware regarding how the Byzantine Empire was handling its relationship with non-Chalcedonian Christians at the time, then you'll realize what situation the Muslims might have been in once Constantinople found out that there was a strong new heresy brewing on its Southern borders. Whether that detail was taken account into their calculations or not; it was an impressively sagacious move on the part of the Companions (ra) to punch Byzantium fast and brutally hard, square in the face while it was still breathing heavily from its recent efforts against the Sassanids.

    Peace.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Steel T Post
    Thanks for your feedback; it is interesting that you read everything I write and feel intimidated by it. Your fantasy worldview of having an afterlife is threatened, and people whose afterlife fantasy worldviews are threatened react exactly as if their life has been threatened. My words are as scary to you as a bear in the woods jumping out at you on a hiking trail.

    If you would like to further understand your "derogation and aggression," it is addressed in this study in the field of Terror Management Theory:

    Abstract: The hypothesis that mortality salience (MS) motivates aggression against worldview-threatening others was tested in 4 studies. In Study 1, the experimenters induced participants to write about either their own death or a control topic, presented them with a target who either disparaged their political views or did not, and gave them the opportunity to choose the amount of hot sauce the target would have to consume. As predicted, MS participants allocated a particularly large amount of hot sauce to the worldview-threatening target. In Studies 2 and 3, the authors found that following MS induction, the opportunity to express a negative attitude toward the critical target eliminated aggression and the opportunity to aggress against the target eliminated derogation. This suggests that derogation and aggression are two alternative modes of responding to MS that serve the same psychological function. Finally, Study 4 showed that MS did not encourage aggression against a person who allocated unpleasant juice to the participant, supporting the specificity of MS-induced aggression to worldview-threatening others.

    HA McGregor, JD Lieberman, J Greenberg. (1998) Terror management and aggression: evidence that mortality salience motivates aggression against worldview-threatening others. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Vol 74(3), pp. 590-605.
     
    Also, video from the above experiments is available on youtube within this documentary produced by the Ernest Becker Foundation about Terror Management Theory, where they talk about the "hot sauce" experiments. It's about half way through the documentary.

    Denial of Death: Ernest Becker Foundation Documentary
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hi1C4NNnV4
     

    The main reason for following your teenager’s rants is for the comic relief they provide. Keep going, it’s getting better every time. Laughing is the best cure for ‘Terror Management”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    I do thank you for deeming me your intellectual superior, several grades above the "little child" level of understanding that the Magical Rabbi demanded of his dupes in Luke 18:17. Jesus has a valid point; hell, he's shoving it right into your face: The afterlife narrative hustled by the Happy Merchant is much like booze; both numb the pain of life for those incapable of handling the realities of life, including mortality salience, like an grown man.

    “Two great European narcotics, alcohol and Christianity.” ―Friedrich Nietzsche
     
    The mature attitude to facing death is Epicurean. "Death is nothing to us."

    • Being dead involves neither pleasure nor pain.
    • The only thing that is bad for us is pain.
    • Thus, death is not bad for us.

    No liquid jew necessary.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Seraphim
    If you really prefer the 'path of humility' the first thing to do is to get down from your stilts and stop imagining that you are "so fucking important".

    Thanks for your feedback; it is interesting that you read everything I write and feel intimidated by it. Your fantasy worldview of having an afterlife is threatened, and people whose afterlife fantasy worldviews are threatened react exactly as if their life has been threatened. My words are as scary to you as a bear in the woods jumping out at you on a hiking trail.

    If you would like to further understand your “derogation and aggression,” it is addressed in this study in the field of Terror Management Theory:

    Abstract: The hypothesis that mortality salience (MS) motivates aggression against worldview-threatening others was tested in 4 studies. In Study 1, the experimenters induced participants to write about either their own death or a control topic, presented them with a target who either disparaged their political views or did not, and gave them the opportunity to choose the amount of hot sauce the target would have to consume. As predicted, MS participants allocated a particularly large amount of hot sauce to the worldview-threatening target. In Studies 2 and 3, the authors found that following MS induction, the opportunity to express a negative attitude toward the critical target eliminated aggression and the opportunity to aggress against the target eliminated derogation. This suggests that derogation and aggression are two alternative modes of responding to MS that serve the same psychological function. Finally, Study 4 showed that MS did not encourage aggression against a person who allocated unpleasant juice to the participant, supporting the specificity of MS-induced aggression to worldview-threatening others.

    HA McGregor, JD Lieberman, J Greenberg. (1998) Terror management and aggression: evidence that mortality salience motivates aggression against worldview-threatening others. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Vol 74(3), pp. 590-605.

    Also, video from the above experiments is available on youtube within this documentary produced by the Ernest Becker Foundation about Terror Management Theory, where they talk about the “hot sauce” experiments. It’s about half way through the documentary.

    Denial of Death: Ernest Becker Foundation Documentary
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hi1C4NNnV4

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    The main reason for following your teenager's rants is for the comic relief they provide. Keep going, it's getting better every time. Laughing is the best cure for 'Terror Management".
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    That's true, there are also the Kabbalists and several Jewish mystical strains, but I think you'll agree that Judaism and Islam are primarily political systems rather than what we would think of as religions.

    Bolshevism combines the characteristics of the French Revolution with those of the rise of Islam… Among religions, Bolshevism is to be reckoned with Mohammedanism rather than with Christianity and Buddhism. Christianity and Buddhism are primarily personal religions, with mystical doctrines and a love of contemplation. Mohammedanism and Bolshevism are practical, social, unspiritual, concerned to win the empire of this world.
     
    -Bertrand Russell
    Jung also compared Hitler to Mohammed and the prophets of the Torah.

    Hey Marcus,

    I cannot speak to Judaism – not my expertise.

    But bro – you’ve got to be kidding me – if you know my tradition as thoroughly as I have studied it, then you know that; for certain the political realm is and always has been part of its domain for it has something to say about how humans interact – and social organization is one aspect. But, from just looking at the literature – there are far, far more works written on spirituality than there are on the realm of politics or government – this is not debatable. Politics/government is one of the branches of the legal tradition and probably gets far more attention in an increasingly materialist world because, what else are they going to scrutinize or use as a yardstick to judge except that which manifests itself materially?

    We talked about Russell before, remember? Look, if he wanted to cast a statement without attention to the writings of men like Ibn Arabi (ra), Mawlana Rumi (ra), Ibn Ata Illah (ra), Abdullah ibn Alawi al-Haddad (ra), and the numerous founders of the Sufi Orders – then, honestly, what can I say other than; why should I take his words seriously?

    I respect some of Jung’s works that I have been exposed to. I see your Jung and raise you a Gandhi :) – who had words of praise for him – and a Goethe (he wrote some great poetry about the Prophet [pbuh]):
    “In this context, perhaps it is helpful to rememebr a time in the formation of German national identity where Islam was not incompatible with being German. Goethe wrote to the artist Johann Meyer: ‘and so we must abide in Islam (that means: absolute devotion to God’s will)…’ That the man who would become Germany’s national poet saw Islam as a concept that could be practiced by anyone (not necessarily as a religion) is striking. Goethe was not the only one: Hammer, a Catholic, would have his own grave stone imported from the Ottoman Empire, with verses from the Quran written on it.”
    Religion, Identity and Politics: Germany and Turkey in Interaction

    It is unfortunate that we live in a time and circumstance when the historic tie between the deeply spiritual and the externally legal (Can anyone question that Junayd al-Baghdadi [ra] was both an accomplished Sufi and jurist?) in our tradition has been cast into doubt. A hundred or so years ago, this wouldn’t even have been a question worth discussing.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    Certainly Muhammad and his pals had plenty of interactions with Christians, but I see Islam as essentially an evangelical offshoot of Judaism: the goal of the latter is social organization to maintain the community as a nation among nations, the goal of the former is mobilization for expanding the community by force or persuasion. Both are intensely concerned with differentiating themselves from outsiders, you could call them negative belief systems. The Hagarism theory may be a bridge too far, but it seems reasonable that the two didn't become distinguishable until later than is usually accepted.

    Here's the rest of Jung's analysis, he clearly saw Hitler as an heir of the Abrahamic prophets rather than mere strongman
    http://christopherdickey.blogspot.com/2016/11/carl-jung-on-hitler-stalin-and_5.html
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Steel T Post
    I strongly agree. Christianity was the original ANTIFA (fasces being the symbol of the Roman white male power.) Low Lives Matter! (One Corinthians 1:28) movement. Sound familiar to today?

    It was a bait and switch operation. The bait was Greek, both with Greek philosophy and evangelical Greek redemption cult traditions.

    The evangelical Greek redemption cult traditions were copied almost perfectly into the New Testament, as this passage from Homer, which Plato copied, clearly shows:

    [T]hey perform their ritual, and persuade not only individuals, but whole cities, that expiations and atonements for sin may be made by sacrifices and amusements which fill a vacant hour, and are equally at the service of the living and the dead; the latter sort they call mysteries, and they redeem us from the pains of hell, but if we neglect them no one knows what awaits us.

    -Plato (4th century BCE)
    The Republic (Book II)
     
    The Greek philosophy was mainly Epicurean. From Epicurus, Christianity took many things, and often twisted them into completely different meanings. One example is the Epicurean meal together, which was turned into the Last Supper/Eucharist magic show. Another example is that Epicurus claimed to have removed the sting of death, Amelioration of death anxiety is an extremely important function of any religion or philosophy if you are familiar with Terror Management Theory.

    The last example I'll proffer is one of the strongest emotional attractions of Christianity, which is somebody dying for you. (John 15:13) Again, Epicurus beat Jesus to this by centuries.

    "...an Epicurean sage will on occasion will even perform what may be termed the ultimate act of self-sacrifice; he will die for a friend."

    Warren, J. (2004) Facing Death: Epicurus and his Critics. Oxford University Press. pp. 186-187.
     
    I won't go into more examples of what Christianity plagiarized from Epicurus, as all of the details are contained in here:

    "...Epicureanism functioned as a bridge of transition from Greek philosophy to the Christian religion."

    Norman Dewitt (1954) St. Paul and Epicurus. University of Minnesota Press.
    muse.jhu.edu/books/9780816662135
     
    The switch part of the bait and switch operation was twisting Caesar into a Magical Jew.

    "Jesus is the historically transmitted figure of Divus Julius."

    -Francesco Carrota
    http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/jwc_e/contents.html
     
    Carrota's work is outstanding. You'll see pictures of Roman coins with Caesar's symbol of military triumph, a cross with his armor placed on the cross, with two crucified figures on each side. The Christians put Jesus in place of place of Julius, and the Jesus character even brags about the switcharoo in Luke 20:24.

    Yes, the bewildering and often grotesque milieu of the Hellenistic Near East was fertile ground for the development of a new religion, and the imposition of a unitary imperial rule against Jewish resistance was the final catalyst. Philo of Alexandria is also a good example of the oriental/hellenic syncretism. The Greeks had lost their martial vigor and become orientalized by the time of the Roman conquest, but Egyptian Christianity became a proxy for national resistance to the Greco-Romans by the native population, one of the reasons it converted so rapidly. You can still see the cosmetic Egyptian influence

    https://ivarfjeld.com/2012/01/21/the-pope-acts-like-a-copy-cat-of-egyptian-pagan-kings/

    Read More
    • Agree: Steel T Post
    • Replies: @Brewer
    Russell Gmirkin has an interesting new book:
    http://religionnews.com/2016/09/21/new-book-claims-the-old-testament-drew-extensively-on-platos-writings/

    Discussion here:
    https://www.sott.net/article/336354-The-Truth-Perspective-Interview-with-Russell-Gmirkin-What-Does-Plato-Have-To-Do-With-the-Bible
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @mtn cur
    The book of Romans asks ,"does not the potter have authority over the clay," to make either vessels of honor or dishonor? More pointedly in Job 38, "Who is this that obscures my designs with words without knowledge? Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you understand? Because of what seems to be messes made mostly by humans, many reject the idea of God making everything out of nothing and then espouse the notion that nothing made everything out of itself. Being too stupid to know we are stupid, we quarrel over our stupidity.

    Is it ‘ce…’ or ‘pe…’? I am with you any other way.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Steel T Post
    I concur with you that people invent Gawds to pretend that an afterlife exists. Afterlife belief ameliorates their mortality salience, i.e., fear of death. This has actually been proven scientifically, with over 400 empirical experiments in a field called Terror Management Theory (Greenberg, Solomon, Pyszczynski, 1986). Interestingly, TMT has proven that even atheists will embrace religion to assuage their fear of death.

    Heflick, N., Goldenberg, J. (2012) No atheists in foxholes: Arguments for (but not against) afterlife belief buffers mortality salience effects for atheists. British journal of social psychology. Volume 51, Issue 2, pp. 385–392.
     
    The best introduction to Terror Management Theory is a documentary produced by the Ernest Becker Foundation, which includes video of Greenberg, Solomon, and Pyszczynski's ingenious mortality salience experiments, found here:

    Denial of Death
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hi1C4NNnV4
     
    Of course, an afterlife belief is only one way to ameliorate mortality salience. I prefer the path of humility, i.e., accepting life for what it is, fleeting.

    Kesebir, P. (2014) A quiet ego quiets death anxiety: Humility as an existential anxiety buffer. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Vol 106(4), pp. 610-623.
     
    Those who desire heaven reveal themselves as egotistical narcissists. Nobody expresses that afterlife narcissism better than good ol' Rust Cohle:

    The ontological fallacy of expecting a light at the end of the tunnel, well, that’s what the preacher sells, same as a shrink. See, the preacher, he encourages your capacity for illusion. The he tells you it’s a fucking virtue. Always a buck to be had doing that. And it’s such a desperate sense of entitlement, isn’t it? Surely this is all for me. Me. Me, me, me. I, I. I’m so fucking important. I’m so fucking important, then, right? F--k you.

    –Rust Cohle, True Detective, Season 1, Episode 3
     

    If you really prefer the ‘path of humility’ the first thing to do is to get down from your stilts and stop imagining that you are “so fucking important”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    Thanks for your feedback; it is interesting that you read everything I write and feel intimidated by it. Your fantasy worldview of having an afterlife is threatened, and people whose afterlife fantasy worldviews are threatened react exactly as if their life has been threatened. My words are as scary to you as a bear in the woods jumping out at you on a hiking trail.

    If you would like to further understand your "derogation and aggression," it is addressed in this study in the field of Terror Management Theory:

    Abstract: The hypothesis that mortality salience (MS) motivates aggression against worldview-threatening others was tested in 4 studies. In Study 1, the experimenters induced participants to write about either their own death or a control topic, presented them with a target who either disparaged their political views or did not, and gave them the opportunity to choose the amount of hot sauce the target would have to consume. As predicted, MS participants allocated a particularly large amount of hot sauce to the worldview-threatening target. In Studies 2 and 3, the authors found that following MS induction, the opportunity to express a negative attitude toward the critical target eliminated aggression and the opportunity to aggress against the target eliminated derogation. This suggests that derogation and aggression are two alternative modes of responding to MS that serve the same psychological function. Finally, Study 4 showed that MS did not encourage aggression against a person who allocated unpleasant juice to the participant, supporting the specificity of MS-induced aggression to worldview-threatening others.

    HA McGregor, JD Lieberman, J Greenberg. (1998) Terror management and aggression: evidence that mortality salience motivates aggression against worldview-threatening others. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Vol 74(3), pp. 590-605.
     
    Also, video from the above experiments is available on youtube within this documentary produced by the Ernest Becker Foundation about Terror Management Theory, where they talk about the "hot sauce" experiments. It's about half way through the documentary.

    Denial of Death: Ernest Becker Foundation Documentary
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hi1C4NNnV4
     
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Marcus
    Judaism and Islam are dry, legalistic "religions," and in true Semitic fashion they condone any manner of chicanery as long as it benefits the tribe. In the case of Jesus and Paul, it was converting the debased urban masses of the empire to undermine Roman hegemony.

    I strongly agree. Christianity was the original ANTIFA (fasces being the symbol of the Roman white male power.) Low Lives Matter! (One Corinthians 1:28) movement. Sound familiar to today?

    It was a bait and switch operation. The bait was Greek, both with Greek philosophy and evangelical Greek redemption cult traditions.

    The evangelical Greek redemption cult traditions were copied almost perfectly into the New Testament, as this passage from Homer, which Plato copied, clearly shows:

    [T]hey perform their ritual, and persuade not only individuals, but whole cities, that expiations and atonements for sin may be made by sacrifices and amusements which fill a vacant hour, and are equally at the service of the living and the dead; the latter sort they call mysteries, and they redeem us from the pains of hell, but if we neglect them no one knows what awaits us.

    -Plato (4th century BCE)
    The Republic (Book II)

    The Greek philosophy was mainly Epicurean. From Epicurus, Christianity took many things, and often twisted them into completely different meanings. One example is the Epicurean meal together, which was turned into the Last Supper/Eucharist magic show. Another example is that Epicurus claimed to have removed the sting of death, Amelioration of death anxiety is an extremely important function of any religion or philosophy if you are familiar with Terror Management Theory.

    The last example I’ll proffer is one of the strongest emotional attractions of Christianity, which is somebody dying for you. (John 15:13) Again, Epicurus beat Jesus to this by centuries.

    “…an Epicurean sage will on occasion will even perform what may be termed the ultimate act of self-sacrifice; he will die for a friend.”

    Warren, J. (2004) Facing Death: Epicurus and his Critics. Oxford University Press. pp. 186-187.

    I won’t go into more examples of what Christianity plagiarized from Epicurus, as all of the details are contained in here:

    “…Epicureanism functioned as a bridge of transition from Greek philosophy to the Christian religion.”

    Norman Dewitt (1954) St. Paul and Epicurus. University of Minnesota Press.
    muse.jhu.edu/books/9780816662135

    The switch part of the bait and switch operation was twisting Caesar into a Magical Jew.

    “Jesus is the historically transmitted figure of Divus Julius.”

    -Francesco Carrota
    http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/jwc_e/contents.html

    Carrota’s work is outstanding. You’ll see pictures of Roman coins with Caesar’s symbol of military triumph, a cross with his armor placed on the cross, with two crucified figures on each side. The Christians put Jesus in place of place of Julius, and the Jesus character even brags about the switcharoo in Luke 20:24.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    Yes, the bewildering and often grotesque milieu of the Hellenistic Near East was fertile ground for the development of a new religion, and the imposition of a unitary imperial rule against Jewish resistance was the final catalyst. Philo of Alexandria is also a good example of the oriental/hellenic syncretism. The Greeks had lost their martial vigor and become orientalized by the time of the Roman conquest, but Egyptian Christianity became a proxy for national resistance to the Greco-Romans by the native population, one of the reasons it converted so rapidly. You can still see the cosmetic Egyptian influence
    https://ivarfjeld.com/2012/01/21/the-pope-acts-like-a-copy-cat-of-egyptian-pagan-kings/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Your denial of existence the Sufi saints from the Maghreb to Malaysia won't make them or their writings go away, Marcus. :)

    Speaking of one such man, Sidi Ahmad Zarruq (ra) - possibly the same Sufi-scholar that Prof. Barrett did his dissertation on; he was an amazing sage of the Maliki school and the Shadhili Order. He lived in Fes for the early part of his life, but he was run out and declared a crypto-Jew because he stood up with the principles (yes, the 'legalities') that religious minorities - aka 'those outside the tribe' had to be protected against pogroms:
    "What is clear, however, is that the anti-Jewish rhetoric of the revolutionaries was strong enough that anyone who opposed their political agenda of jihad and revolution against the Marinid Dynasty was accused of 'being a Jew.' This accusation was leveled against Ahmad Zarruq in his youth. Zarruq believed that Islamic law required continuity of legitimacy of the government against revolutionary change; he believed it also required the protection of religious minorities (dhimmi) living as citizens under such a legitimate Islamic government. When he spoke out openly against the sharifian revolution, even refusing to pray behind its leaders, he was driven from Fez under the shadow of the accusation of 'being a Jew' and not a Muslim.
    Rebel Between Spirit and Law: Ahmad Zarruq, Sainthood, and Authority in Islam

    Morocco lost one of its greatest, for when the Egyptians came to know that he had come to Cairo, they installed him as the chief Maliki jurist in al-Azhar and thousands are reported to have attended his lectures.

    Peace.

    That’s true, there are also the Kabbalists and several Jewish mystical strains, but I think you’ll agree that Judaism and Islam are primarily political systems rather than what we would think of as religions.

    Bolshevism combines the characteristics of the French Revolution with those of the rise of Islam… Among religions, Bolshevism is to be reckoned with Mohammedanism rather than with Christianity and Buddhism. Christianity and Buddhism are primarily personal religions, with mystical doctrines and a love of contemplation. Mohammedanism and Bolshevism are practical, social, unspiritual, concerned to win the empire of this world.

    -Bertrand Russell
    Jung also compared Hitler to Mohammed and the prophets of the Torah.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    I cannot speak to Judaism - not my expertise.

    But bro - you've got to be kidding me - if you know my tradition as thoroughly as I have studied it, then you know that; for certain the political realm is and always has been part of its domain for it has something to say about how humans interact - and social organization is one aspect. But, from just looking at the literature - there are far, far more works written on spirituality than there are on the realm of politics or government - this is not debatable. Politics/government is one of the branches of the legal tradition and probably gets far more attention in an increasingly materialist world because, what else are they going to scrutinize or use as a yardstick to judge except that which manifests itself materially?

    We talked about Russell before, remember? Look, if he wanted to cast a statement without attention to the writings of men like Ibn Arabi (ra), Mawlana Rumi (ra), Ibn Ata Illah (ra), Abdullah ibn Alawi al-Haddad (ra), and the numerous founders of the Sufi Orders - then, honestly, what can I say other than; why should I take his words seriously?

    I respect some of Jung's works that I have been exposed to. I see your Jung and raise you a Gandhi :) - who had words of praise for him - and a Goethe (he wrote some great poetry about the Prophet [pbuh]):
    "In this context, perhaps it is helpful to rememebr a time in the formation of German national identity where Islam was not incompatible with being German. Goethe wrote to the artist Johann Meyer: 'and so we must abide in Islam (that means: absolute devotion to God's will)...' That the man who would become Germany's national poet saw Islam as a concept that could be practiced by anyone (not necessarily as a religion) is striking. Goethe was not the only one: Hammer, a Catholic, would have his own grave stone imported from the Ottoman Empire, with verses from the Quran written on it."
    Religion, Identity and Politics: Germany and Turkey in Interaction

    It is unfortunate that we live in a time and circumstance when the historic tie between the deeply spiritual and the externally legal (Can anyone question that Junayd al-Baghdadi [ra] was both an accomplished Sufi and jurist?) in our tradition has been cast into doubt. A hundred or so years ago, this wouldn't even have been a question worth discussing.

    Peace.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    Can the author explain why trying to glean wisdom or ethics from consideration of his inevitably anthropomorphic deity has got any advantages over trying to infer from the nature and history of man and from evolution what the world of 50 or 100 years hence would be like if it allowed for minimum human misery and no radical destruction of the means for improving man's lot and the best of past culture, and then trying to find a path towards that future, in the meantime persuading mad theists to entertain enough modest doubt to allow the sane and ordinary to get on with the project?

    And what's wrong with multiverses? Any eternal anthropomorphic deity is going to be so lonely and bored that setting off a million big bangs a minute is just what one should expect.

    Whether there’s a God or not, and whether we can ever know or not, and granting that science is not perfect or necessarily all-encompassing, what has religion contributed to the well-being of mankind except for wishful thinking? If that can even be considered a contribution.

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    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
    " What has religion contributed to the well-being of mankind except for wishful thinking".

    Well to start with how about the unsurpassed magnificent Baroque architecture, painting, sculpting, brought forth by the counter-reformation.

    All one has to do to understand the impact of religion on the art world is to tour the breathtaking baroque Dom of Passau, or to view the gilded baroque altar by Baltasar Neuman in the cathedral of Worms, and to sense the overwhelming otherworldy quality of beauty before onesself, and the question is answered.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" society member since 1973, and pro jazz artist.

    PS I am an atheist myself, but am not blinded to to obvious.
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  • @Marcus
    Judaism and Islam are dry, legalistic "religions," and in true Semitic fashion they condone any manner of chicanery as long as it benefits the tribe. In the case of Jesus and Paul, it was converting the debased urban masses of the empire to undermine Roman hegemony.

    Hey Marcus,

    Your denial of existence the Sufi saints from the Maghreb to Malaysia won’t make them or their writings go away, Marcus. :)

    Speaking of one such man, Sidi Ahmad Zarruq (ra) – possibly the same Sufi-scholar that Prof. Barrett did his dissertation on; he was an amazing sage of the Maliki school and the Shadhili Order. He lived in Fes for the early part of his life, but he was run out and declared a crypto-Jew because he stood up with the principles (yes, the ‘legalities’) that religious minorities – aka ‘those outside the tribe’ had to be protected against pogroms:
    “What is clear, however, is that the anti-Jewish rhetoric of the revolutionaries was strong enough that anyone who opposed their political agenda of jihad and revolution against the Marinid Dynasty was accused of ‘being a Jew.’ This accusation was leveled against Ahmad Zarruq in his youth. Zarruq believed that Islamic law required continuity of legitimacy of the government against revolutionary change; he believed it also required the protection of religious minorities (dhimmi) living as citizens under such a legitimate Islamic government. When he spoke out openly against the sharifian revolution, even refusing to pray behind its leaders, he was driven from Fez under the shadow of the accusation of ‘being a Jew’ and not a Muslim.
    Rebel Between Spirit and Law: Ahmad Zarruq, Sainthood, and Authority in Islam

    Morocco lost one of its greatest, for when the Egyptians came to know that he had come to Cairo, they installed him as the chief Maliki jurist in al-Azhar and thousands are reported to have attended his lectures.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    That's true, there are also the Kabbalists and several Jewish mystical strains, but I think you'll agree that Judaism and Islam are primarily political systems rather than what we would think of as religions.

    Bolshevism combines the characteristics of the French Revolution with those of the rise of Islam… Among religions, Bolshevism is to be reckoned with Mohammedanism rather than with Christianity and Buddhism. Christianity and Buddhism are primarily personal religions, with mystical doctrines and a love of contemplation. Mohammedanism and Bolshevism are practical, social, unspiritual, concerned to win the empire of this world.
     
    -Bertrand Russell
    Jung also compared Hitler to Mohammed and the prophets of the Torah.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Steel T Post
    Jesus lied too.

    Mark 11:24-25 Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours.
     
    I have yet to see a believer in the Magical Jew be able to toss a grain of sand into the sea by faith, much less a mountain. Because the claim is a lie, or more precisely, faith is a confidence game played by confidence men (con-men) who are full of blessed assurances.

    Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
     
    Never be surprised to find a faithful son of Jacob the Deceiver—whose guile got him blessed by the Jewgod as the founder of Israel (Genesis 25:19-34; 27:1-41)—lying to you; they boast about how accomplished they are at con games in their "Good Book." Don't take my word for it; read Professor Kevin MacDonald's scholarly analysis of Jews after he was astonished at the Old Testament's con culture. He's a regular contributor here at unz.com and has his own website at kevinmacdonald.net.

    Judaism and Islam are dry, legalistic “religions,” and in true Semitic fashion they condone any manner of chicanery as long as it benefits the tribe. In the case of Jesus and Paul, it was converting the debased urban masses of the empire to undermine Roman hegemony.

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    • Agree: Steel T Post
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Your denial of existence the Sufi saints from the Maghreb to Malaysia won't make them or their writings go away, Marcus. :)

    Speaking of one such man, Sidi Ahmad Zarruq (ra) - possibly the same Sufi-scholar that Prof. Barrett did his dissertation on; he was an amazing sage of the Maliki school and the Shadhili Order. He lived in Fes for the early part of his life, but he was run out and declared a crypto-Jew because he stood up with the principles (yes, the 'legalities') that religious minorities - aka 'those outside the tribe' had to be protected against pogroms:
    "What is clear, however, is that the anti-Jewish rhetoric of the revolutionaries was strong enough that anyone who opposed their political agenda of jihad and revolution against the Marinid Dynasty was accused of 'being a Jew.' This accusation was leveled against Ahmad Zarruq in his youth. Zarruq believed that Islamic law required continuity of legitimacy of the government against revolutionary change; he believed it also required the protection of religious minorities (dhimmi) living as citizens under such a legitimate Islamic government. When he spoke out openly against the sharifian revolution, even refusing to pray behind its leaders, he was driven from Fez under the shadow of the accusation of 'being a Jew' and not a Muslim.
    Rebel Between Spirit and Law: Ahmad Zarruq, Sainthood, and Authority in Islam

    Morocco lost one of its greatest, for when the Egyptians came to know that he had come to Cairo, they installed him as the chief Maliki jurist in al-Azhar and thousands are reported to have attended his lectures.

    Peace.

    , @Steel T Post
    I strongly agree. Christianity was the original ANTIFA (fasces being the symbol of the Roman white male power.) Low Lives Matter! (One Corinthians 1:28) movement. Sound familiar to today?

    It was a bait and switch operation. The bait was Greek, both with Greek philosophy and evangelical Greek redemption cult traditions.

    The evangelical Greek redemption cult traditions were copied almost perfectly into the New Testament, as this passage from Homer, which Plato copied, clearly shows:

    [T]hey perform their ritual, and persuade not only individuals, but whole cities, that expiations and atonements for sin may be made by sacrifices and amusements which fill a vacant hour, and are equally at the service of the living and the dead; the latter sort they call mysteries, and they redeem us from the pains of hell, but if we neglect them no one knows what awaits us.

    -Plato (4th century BCE)
    The Republic (Book II)
     
    The Greek philosophy was mainly Epicurean. From Epicurus, Christianity took many things, and often twisted them into completely different meanings. One example is the Epicurean meal together, which was turned into the Last Supper/Eucharist magic show. Another example is that Epicurus claimed to have removed the sting of death, Amelioration of death anxiety is an extremely important function of any religion or philosophy if you are familiar with Terror Management Theory.

    The last example I'll proffer is one of the strongest emotional attractions of Christianity, which is somebody dying for you. (John 15:13) Again, Epicurus beat Jesus to this by centuries.

    "...an Epicurean sage will on occasion will even perform what may be termed the ultimate act of self-sacrifice; he will die for a friend."

    Warren, J. (2004) Facing Death: Epicurus and his Critics. Oxford University Press. pp. 186-187.
     
    I won't go into more examples of what Christianity plagiarized from Epicurus, as all of the details are contained in here:

    "...Epicureanism functioned as a bridge of transition from Greek philosophy to the Christian religion."

    Norman Dewitt (1954) St. Paul and Epicurus. University of Minnesota Press.
    muse.jhu.edu/books/9780816662135
     
    The switch part of the bait and switch operation was twisting Caesar into a Magical Jew.

    "Jesus is the historically transmitted figure of Divus Julius."

    -Francesco Carrota
    http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/jwc_e/contents.html
     
    Carrota's work is outstanding. You'll see pictures of Roman coins with Caesar's symbol of military triumph, a cross with his armor placed on the cross, with two crucified figures on each side. The Christians put Jesus in place of place of Julius, and the Jesus character even brags about the switcharoo in Luke 20:24.
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  • @mtn cur
    The book of Romans asks ,"does not the potter have authority over the clay," to make either vessels of honor or dishonor? More pointedly in Job 38, "Who is this that obscures my designs with words without knowledge? Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you understand? Because of what seems to be messes made mostly by humans, many reject the idea of God making everything out of nothing and then espouse the notion that nothing made everything out of itself. Being too stupid to know we are stupid, we quarrel over our stupidity.

    “Yeah well, sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand.” -Paul Newman (Cool Hand Luke, 1967)

    A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing by Lawrence Krauss. (Free Press, 2012)

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  • @mtn cur
    The book of Romans asks ,"does not the potter have authority over the clay," to make either vessels of honor or dishonor? More pointedly in Job 38, "Who is this that obscures my designs with words without knowledge? Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you understand? Because of what seems to be messes made mostly by humans, many reject the idea of God making everything out of nothing and then espouse the notion that nothing made everything out of itself. Being too stupid to know we are stupid, we quarrel over our stupidity.

    Hey mtncur,

    Ahhh – one of my favorite set of verses…”Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades? Can you loosen Orion’s belt?”

    the notion that nothing made everything out of itself

    I have observed this and come to the realization that people actually have different notions of ‘nothing’. Like when some speak about it, I shake my head and think, that’s not the ‘nothing’ we’re talking about – the state of ‘nothing’ cannot exist, for if it ‘is’, then it isn’t ‘nothing’. Usually they’re thinking in terms of a vacuum or empty space or something which is already composed of time-space.

    Being too stupid to know we are stupid, we quarrel over our stupidity.

    Maybe they are right – maybe we haven’t progressed beyond apehood – we’re just doing ‘ooga booga’ and just using more phonemes. :)

    Peace.

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  • @Talha
    Hey mtncur,

    this arcade of mirrors called earth
     
    Indeed my friend - this is the realm of trials.

    our existence is maintained by Gods thoughts
     
    We believe that we and the entirety of the phenomenal world is sustained through His will - not sure if that's the same, but it may simply be a semantic difference.

    On sins, without them; could things like repentance, forgiveness, and mercy (or even justice) be manifest or explained? This is a hadith that I have loved since the day I came across it:
    "By Him in whose hand is my soul; if you did not sin, God would replace you with people who would sin and they would seek the forgiveness of God and He would forgive them." - reported in Muslim

    And this is a prayer I try to recite on a daily basis:
    "O Allah, indeed You are Most Forgiving and Generous, You love to forgive; so forgive me." - reported in Tirmidhi

    the whole of creation sacred, including even us, demented clowns though we are
     
    Yeah, we can be pretty horrible, no doubt - despite our purported religious background. For us, there is some of the phenomenal world which is indeed sacred, and some which is not; whatever is created to reflect the Divine attribute 'The Holy' versus that which is created to reflect the lack thereof (or even as a locus for the manifestation of the attribute 'The Abaser').

    If you've got four minutes to spare, this is a good clip on why we sometimes think the wrong question is being asked - maybe it'll give a different perspective when thinking about this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLZ6zrPy6oo

    Peace and many more sound and healthy years - and (based on your comments on other threads) steady hands. :)

    Note: To others, I'm just sharing thoughts with a friend, please don't take these as some intellectual 'fighting words' - not interested in a theological debate, thanks. Take what you like, reject what you don't.

    The book of Romans asks ,”does not the potter have authority over the clay,” to make either vessels of honor or dishonor? More pointedly in Job 38, “Who is this that obscures my designs with words without knowledge? Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you understand? Because of what seems to be messes made mostly by humans, many reject the idea of God making everything out of nothing and then espouse the notion that nothing made everything out of itself. Being too stupid to know we are stupid, we quarrel over our stupidity.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey mtncur,

    Ahhh - one of my favorite set of verses..."Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades? Can you loosen Orion's belt?"


    the notion that nothing made everything out of itself
     
    I have observed this and come to the realization that people actually have different notions of 'nothing'. Like when some speak about it, I shake my head and think, that's not the 'nothing' we're talking about - the state of 'nothing' cannot exist, for if it 'is', then it isn't 'nothing'. Usually they're thinking in terms of a vacuum or empty space or something which is already composed of time-space.

    Being too stupid to know we are stupid, we quarrel over our stupidity.
     
    Maybe they are right - maybe we haven't progressed beyond apehood - we're just doing 'ooga booga' and just using more phonemes. :)

    Peace.

    , @Steel T Post
    "Yeah well, sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand." -Paul Newman (Cool Hand Luke, 1967)

    A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing by Lawrence Krauss. (Free Press, 2012)
     
    , @Seraphim
    Is it 'ce...' or 'pe...'? I am with you any other way.
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  • Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Steel T Post
    I find it curious that those who would denigrate the Founders would obsess about foreign Magical Jew that they deem "perfect." Whites just don't suit your fancy? Are you one with the Culture of Critique (MacDonald, 1998)?

    Are you one with the

    We are the ones with Materialism and Empirio-criticism and consider your philosophy reactionary as well, since it fits your racial prejudice and US imperialistic (and corporate trans-national as well!) robbing and exploitation of other nations. Philosophies displayed above were considered obsolete it the times of USSR. Instead of praying God, you idolize your State, the Western Primacy, the Founding fathers, the IQ and Genetic Advantage, etc. i.e. yourself, own vanity.

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  • @skrik
    Kevin Barrett reviewing Griffin’s Chapter 14, “Teleological Order:” "The claim that it could arise by chance (as opposed to intelligent design) is ludicrous."

    Me: I 'beg' to differ. AFAIK, nowhere is it shown that 'at least 26 of the fundamental constants' are in any way amenable to any alleged 'fine tuning,' as opposed to being 'emergent' = derived from/specified by the 'natural' properties of matter/energy itself. See 'conservation laws' vs. 'supernatural' below. I just re-read parts of Feynman's "The Meaning of it All," IMHO useless on alleged deities; publishing it posthumously was a mischievous act. Theologians' 'business' is speculating about alleged deities and IMHO any output should be on the fiction shelves.

    A necessary and sufficient morality is "Do unto others ..." with a codicil "Do no harm" (to negate 'self-harmers'), with a lemma: MYOB = mind your own business.

    Since we lack telepathy, any 'religion' [= belief in some alleged deity] can only be in the victim's mind, and by the conservation laws [= matter/energy cannot be created/destroyed etc., *no* exceptions either detected or expected], no 'outside interference' is possible [refer to believers' alleged 'supernatural' forces as a claimed exception, but, looping, since both the universe and people are made of matter/energy, outside interference is forbidden by the conservation laws as inherently undetectable.] Hence the expression: Wholly imaginary deity.

    Q: Why is it so? A: People yearn for an explanation of where the universe may have come from in general, and where they themselves may be going to - in particular, after their own inevitable death. So religion's 'hook' = alleged deity's 'promise:' "Believe in me and get eternal life." Haw; nothing could be more fantastic - or self-serving. And the 'bonus' = 'the creator' = origin myth.

    Again invoking the conservation laws, before the 'big bang' was not nothing, merely matter/energy in some other, highly concentrated, form. OK; Q: What happened? A: We know of 'quantum fluctuations;' for example how radioactive nuclei spontaneously fission. This occurs at a predictable rate, but Q: How does any particular nucleus 'know' when to decay? A: It doesn't; it just has a some non-zero probability, which in bulk produces the observed rate of decay. So with the big-bang precursor 'cosmic egg;' sometime it just had to blow, and it really does not matter when, it just did [currently 13.799±0.021 billion years ago]. No magic = no 'creator;' the cosmic egg went through a spontaneous phase transition, like super-heated water in a pressure-cooker does if/when the seal is suddenly removed. Colloquially, the big-bang happened when/as the lid blew off hell.

    So now we can apply Occam's razor [= no more assumptions should be made than are necessary]; 'the creator' = origin myth may be desired by those of fragile mind, but is an unnecessary complication = superfluous concept and can summarily be dismissed: Goodbye, 'god-concept' and good riddance.

    I concur with you that people invent Gawds to pretend that an afterlife exists. Afterlife belief ameliorates their mortality salience, i.e., fear of death. This has actually been proven scientifically, with over 400 empirical experiments in a field called Terror Management Theory (Greenberg, Solomon, Pyszczynski, 1986). Interestingly, TMT has proven that even atheists will embrace religion to assuage their fear of death.

    Heflick, N., Goldenberg, J. (2012) No atheists in foxholes: Arguments for (but not against) afterlife belief buffers mortality salience effects for atheists. British journal of social psychology. Volume 51, Issue 2, pp. 385–392.

    The best introduction to Terror Management Theory is a documentary produced by the Ernest Becker Foundation, which includes video of Greenberg, Solomon, and Pyszczynski’s ingenious mortality salience experiments, found here:

    Denial of Death
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hi1C4NNnV4

    Of course, an afterlife belief is only one way to ameliorate mortality salience. I prefer the path of humility, i.e., accepting life for what it is, fleeting.

    Kesebir, P. (2014) A quiet ego quiets death anxiety: Humility as an existential anxiety buffer. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Vol 106(4), pp. 610-623.

    Those who desire heaven reveal themselves as egotistical narcissists. Nobody expresses that afterlife narcissism better than good ol’ Rust Cohle:

    The ontological fallacy of expecting a light at the end of the tunnel, well, that’s what the preacher sells, same as a shrink. See, the preacher, he encourages your capacity for illusion. The he tells you it’s a fucking virtue. Always a buck to be had doing that. And it’s such a desperate sense of entitlement, isn’t it? Surely this is all for me. Me. Me, me, me. I, I. I’m so fucking important. I’m so fucking important, then, right? F–k you.

    –Rust Cohle, True Detective, Season 1, Episode 3

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    If you really prefer the 'path of humility' the first thing to do is to get down from your stilts and stop imagining that you are "so fucking important".
    , @skrik
    Thanks for the response; I 'match' your humility with carpe diem.

    [anecdote] I went to a doctor; I said: "When I do this, it hurts."

    He said: "Do not do this!" [/anecdote]

    Normally, I do not 'do' video; I find it a thin medium, with too much time needed, far too much extraneous detail and not enough information per squandered bandwidth/time-unit. [My 'worst case' video was "Century of the Self," but perseverance paid off with my discovery of Bernays.]

    I 'match' your "Denial of Death" with "Island". To be fair, I add a clue: 'Huxley.'

    Now, what we have here is probably [deliberate] 'leadership' failure, certainly [dis-informed] 'parental' failure, but of whatever sort of failure, a wicked error, one of the very worst.

    Back to my doctor, here this = never put the scare of death into any of your [let alone immature = 'below the age of reason'] child(ren)!

    Accept/apply that, problem practically solved. "Island" is not perfect, but one has to start somewhere.

    Back to the video, I do not accept that the worst that humans do to each other [= kill] is caused by individual or mass fear of death; two 'perfect' examples can be directly observed in the ME, whereby one group murders to steal soil, another oil. rgds
    , @skrik
    PS RTFM!

    One of the 1st steps towards my own enlightenment was the realisation that there is no manual.

    I observed couples, my friends, acquaintances and strangers, getting married and/or having children, and overwhelmingly stuffing it up. I wondered, where/how do the errors come from, or in other words, how to do it right?

    I spent a lot of time/effort on that problem, and developed my own ideas over the years, but now, given the villainy almost everywhere one looks, plus the obvious bankruptcy of most of academia, no manual is on purpose, actively prevented by the [totally undemocratic] tyrants who rule over us. So also, the fear of death is actively promoted by those same tyrants. rgds
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  • @Anon
    Obsession of certain Americans by the legacy of Jefferson is almost ridiculous. The writings of this 'founding father' (i.e. disguised brother mason building the foundation of their 'temple') are translated to Russian also. I have his 'history of Virginia' on my bookshelf. Quite a mediocre work, so typical for educated rural landlords throughout Europe of that times. His political adventurism was a kind of remedy from countrylife boredom. Just imagine Squire Trelawney composing the masonic 'Declaration of Whatever' together with Captain Smollet crossing the Delaware. The America's own writer, Mark Twain, has a clue:



    THE STORY OF A GALLANT DEED

    THIS INDENTURE, made the tenth
    Day of November, in the year
    Of our Lord one thousand eight
    Hundred six-and-fifty,

    Between Joanna S. E. Gray
    And Philip Gray, her husband,
    Of Salem City in the State
    Of Texas, of the first part,

    And O. B. Johnson, of the town
    Of Austin, ditto, WITNESSETH:
    That said party of first part,
    For and in consideration

    Of the sum of Twenty Thousand
    Dollars, lawful money of
    The U. S. of Americay,
    To them in hand now paid by said

    Party of the second part,
    The due receipt whereof is here--
    By confessed and acknowledg-ed
    Having Granted, Bargained, Sold, Remised,

    Released and Aliened and Conveyed,
    Confirmed, and by these presents do
    Grant and Bargain, Sell, Remise,
    Alien, Release, Convey, and Con--

    Firm unto the said aforesaid
    Party of the second part,
    And to his heirs and assigns
    Forever and ever ALL

    That certain lot or parcel of
    LAND situate in city of
    Dunkirk, County of Chautauqua,
    And likewise furthermore in York State

    Bounded and described, to-wit,
    As follows, herein, namely
    BEGINNING at the distance of
    A hundred two-and-forty feet,

    North-half-east, north-east-by north,
    East-north-east and northerly
    Of the northerly line of Mulligan street
    On the westerly line of Brannigan street,

    And running thence due northerly
    On Brannigan street 200 feet,
    Thence at right angles westerly,
    North-west-by-west-and-west-half-west,

    West-and-by-north, north-west-by-west,
    About--
     

    I find it curious that those who would denigrate the Founders would obsess about foreign Magical Jew that they deem “perfect.” Whites just don’t suit your fancy? Are you one with the Culture of Critique (MacDonald, 1998)?

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    • Replies: @Anon

    Are you one with the
     
    We are the ones with Materialism and Empirio-criticism and consider your philosophy reactionary as well, since it fits your racial prejudice and US imperialistic (and corporate trans-national as well!) robbing and exploitation of other nations. Philosophies displayed above were considered obsolete it the times of USSR. Instead of praying God, you idolize your State, the Western Primacy, the Founding fathers, the IQ and Genetic Advantage, etc. i.e. yourself, own vanity.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Steel T Post
    You just cannot stop lying! Another example from your diatribe of falsehoods above: Jefferson was not a Mason.

    Thomas Jefferson's connections to fraternal organizations have often been misunderstood. He is frequently, yet falsely, linked to the Freemasons. Comments that he made in his correspondence suggest that he had a generally negative opinion of fraternal organizations.

    http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/fraternal-organizations
     
    If your job is to make Christian apologists look mendacious, you're succeeding. LiarsForJesus.com indeed!

    Is it really to be believed that when nearly all the Founding Fathers of the United States were masons, Jefferson was not? When all his life and carrier he associated with the most notorious masons in America and Europe (where as Ambassador to France he frequented ‘La Loge des Neuf Sœurs’, the prominent French Masonic Lodge of the Grand Orient de France that was influential in organising French support for the American Revolution and whose Master was at a time Benjamin Franklin?). When his philosophy was pure masonism? When he wrote so enthusiastically about Adam Weishaupt while disparaging his ‘detractors’, than one may believe that he was a member of his Order?

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  • Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Seraphim
    I am in serious doubt whether you know the English language if you can't tell how the genitive (possessive) case is used ('s or 'of the'). The possessive case can be confusing, especially when two nouns are doing the possessing. Little wonder, grammar is not taught in American schools (or reading or writing 'skills', for that matter - 20 to 23% of adults in the U.S., are limited to reading at the basic or below basic proficiency levels - when they are not downright illiterate). I wonder whether you ever read the Declaration of Independence.
    Jefferson used the short form of the possessive case.

    The rejection of 'Christian Platonism' by Jefferson is illustrative of his own intellectual limitations and of his superficial knowledge of the classics. He never studied Plato ("I amused myself with reading seriously Plato’s Republic. I am wrong however in calling it amusement, for it was the heaviest task-work I ever went through. I had occasionally before taken up some of his other works, but scarcely ever had patience to go through a whole dialogue"), which did not prevent him pontificate about the malfeasance of his philosophy in true 'intellectual yet idiot' fashion. All his'knowledge' of Plato came from the famous "English theologian, English Dissenters clergyman, natural philosopher, chemist, innovative grammarian, multi-subject educator, and Liberal political theorist" Joseph Priestley (a Mason, member of the "Lunar Society" - the 'Lunarticks', as they called themselves). Jefferson believed in the 'divine institution of the Sabbath'! His God was the Jewish God of Protestantism and Islam, of the Masons and Illuminati (he was a Mason). "The grander project to liberate the world from the ghostly tyranny of supernatural religion" was their project also. Jefferson was not only an 'intelectual yet idiot". He was also a 'useful idiot' for the World Revolution.

    Obsession of certain Americans by the legacy of Jefferson is almost ridiculous. The writings of this ‘founding father’ (i.e. disguised brother mason building the foundation of their ‘temple’) are translated to Russian also. I have his ‘history of Virginia’ on my bookshelf. Quite a mediocre work, so typical for educated rural landlords throughout Europe of that times. His political adventurism was a kind of remedy from countrylife boredom. Just imagine Squire Trelawney composing the masonic ‘Declaration of Whatever’ together with Captain Smollet crossing the Delaware. The America’s own writer, Mark Twain, has a clue:

    [MORE]

    THE STORY OF A GALLANT DEED

    THIS INDENTURE, made the tenth
    Day of November, in the year
    Of our Lord one thousand eight
    Hundred six-and-fifty,

    Between Joanna S. E. Gray
    And Philip Gray, her husband,
    Of Salem City in the State
    Of Texas, of the first part,

    And O. B. Johnson, of the town
    Of Austin, ditto, WITNESSETH:
    That said party of first part,
    For and in consideration

    Of the sum of Twenty Thousand
    Dollars, lawful money of
    The U. S. of Americay,
    To them in hand now paid by said

    Party of the second part,
    The due receipt whereof is here–
    By confessed and acknowledg-ed
    Having Granted, Bargained, Sold, Remised,

    Released and Aliened and Conveyed,
    Confirmed, and by these presents do
    Grant and Bargain, Sell, Remise,
    Alien, Release, Convey, and Con–

    Firm unto the said aforesaid
    Party of the second part,
    And to his heirs and assigns
    Forever and ever ALL

    That certain lot or parcel of
    LAND situate in city of
    Dunkirk, County of Chautauqua,
    And likewise furthermore in York State

    Bounded and described, to-wit,
    As follows, herein, namely
    BEGINNING at the distance of
    A hundred two-and-forty feet,

    North-half-east, north-east-by north,
    East-north-east and northerly
    Of the northerly line of Mulligan street
    On the westerly line of Brannigan street,

    And running thence due northerly
    On Brannigan street 200 feet,
    Thence at right angles westerly,
    North-west-by-west-and-west-half-west,

    West-and-by-north, north-west-by-west,
    About–

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    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    I find it curious that those who would denigrate the Founders would obsess about foreign Magical Jew that they deem "perfect." Whites just don't suit your fancy? Are you one with the Culture of Critique (MacDonald, 1998)?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Seraphim
    I am in serious doubt whether you know the English language if you can't tell how the genitive (possessive) case is used ('s or 'of the'). The possessive case can be confusing, especially when two nouns are doing the possessing. Little wonder, grammar is not taught in American schools (or reading or writing 'skills', for that matter - 20 to 23% of adults in the U.S., are limited to reading at the basic or below basic proficiency levels - when they are not downright illiterate). I wonder whether you ever read the Declaration of Independence.
    Jefferson used the short form of the possessive case.

    The rejection of 'Christian Platonism' by Jefferson is illustrative of his own intellectual limitations and of his superficial knowledge of the classics. He never studied Plato ("I amused myself with reading seriously Plato’s Republic. I am wrong however in calling it amusement, for it was the heaviest task-work I ever went through. I had occasionally before taken up some of his other works, but scarcely ever had patience to go through a whole dialogue"), which did not prevent him pontificate about the malfeasance of his philosophy in true 'intellectual yet idiot' fashion. All his'knowledge' of Plato came from the famous "English theologian, English Dissenters clergyman, natural philosopher, chemist, innovative grammarian, multi-subject educator, and Liberal political theorist" Joseph Priestley (a Mason, member of the "Lunar Society" - the 'Lunarticks', as they called themselves). Jefferson believed in the 'divine institution of the Sabbath'! His God was the Jewish God of Protestantism and Islam, of the Masons and Illuminati (he was a Mason). "The grander project to liberate the world from the ghostly tyranny of supernatural religion" was their project also. Jefferson was not only an 'intelectual yet idiot". He was also a 'useful idiot' for the World Revolution.

    You just cannot stop lying! Another example from your diatribe of falsehoods above: Jefferson was not a Mason.

    Thomas Jefferson’s connections to fraternal organizations have often been misunderstood. He is frequently, yet falsely, linked to the Freemasons. Comments that he made in his correspondence suggest that he had a generally negative opinion of fraternal organizations.

    http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/fraternal-organizations

    If your job is to make Christian apologists look mendacious, you’re succeeding. LiarsForJesus.com indeed!

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Is it really to be believed that when nearly all the Founding Fathers of the United States were masons, Jefferson was not? When all his life and carrier he associated with the most notorious masons in America and Europe (where as Ambassador to France he frequented 'La Loge des Neuf Sœurs', the prominent French Masonic Lodge of the Grand Orient de France that was influential in organising French support for the American Revolution and whose Master was at a time Benjamin Franklin?). When his philosophy was pure masonism? When he wrote so enthusiastically about Adam Weishaupt while disparaging his 'detractors', than one may believe that he was a member of his Order?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Kevin Barrett reviewing Griffin’s Chapter 14, “Teleological Order:” “The claim that it could arise by chance (as opposed to intelligent design) is ludicrous.”

    Me: I ‘beg’ to differ. AFAIK, nowhere is it shown that ‘at least 26 of the fundamental constants’ are in any way amenable to any alleged ‘fine tuning,’ as opposed to being ‘emergent’ = derived from/specified by the ‘natural’ properties of matter/energy itself. See ‘conservation laws’ vs. ‘supernatural’ below. I just re-read parts of Feynman’s “The Meaning of it All,” IMHO useless on alleged deities; publishing it posthumously was a mischievous act. Theologians’ ‘business’ is speculating about alleged deities and IMHO any output should be on the fiction shelves.

    A necessary and sufficient morality is “Do unto others …” with a codicil “Do no harm” (to negate ‘self-harmers’), with a lemma: MYOB = mind your own business.

    Since we lack telepathy, any ‘religion’ [= belief in some alleged deity] can only be in the victim’s mind, and by the conservation laws [= matter/energy cannot be created/destroyed etc., *no* exceptions either detected or expected], no ‘outside interference’ is possible [refer to believers' alleged 'supernatural' forces as a claimed exception, but, looping, since both the universe and people are made of matter/energy, outside interference is forbidden by the conservation laws as inherently undetectable.] Hence the expression: Wholly imaginary deity.

    Q: Why is it so? A: People yearn for an explanation of where the universe may have come from in general, and where they themselves may be going to – in particular, after their own inevitable death. So religion’s ‘hook’ = alleged deity’s ‘promise:’ “Believe in me and get eternal life.” Haw; nothing could be more fantastic – or self-serving. And the ‘bonus’ = ‘the creator’ = origin myth.

    Again invoking the conservation laws, before the ‘big bang’ was not nothing, merely matter/energy in some other, highly concentrated, form. OK; Q: What happened? A: We know of ‘quantum fluctuations;’ for example how radioactive nuclei spontaneously fission. This occurs at a predictable rate, but Q: How does any particular nucleus ‘know’ when to decay? A: It doesn’t; it just has a some non-zero probability, which in bulk produces the observed rate of decay. So with the big-bang precursor ‘cosmic egg;’ sometime it just had to blow, and it really does not matter when, it just did [currently 13.799±0.021 billion years ago]. No magic = no ‘creator;’ the cosmic egg went through a spontaneous phase transition, like super-heated water in a pressure-cooker does if/when the seal is suddenly removed. Colloquially, the big-bang happened when/as the lid blew off hell.

    So now we can apply Occam’s razor [= no more assumptions should be made than are necessary]; ‘the creator’ = origin myth may be desired by those of fragile mind, but is an unnecessary complication = superfluous concept and can summarily be dismissed: Goodbye, ‘god-concept’ and good riddance.

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    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    I concur with you that people invent Gawds to pretend that an afterlife exists. Afterlife belief ameliorates their mortality salience, i.e., fear of death. This has actually been proven scientifically, with over 400 empirical experiments in a field called Terror Management Theory (Greenberg, Solomon, Pyszczynski, 1986). Interestingly, TMT has proven that even atheists will embrace religion to assuage their fear of death.

    Heflick, N., Goldenberg, J. (2012) No atheists in foxholes: Arguments for (but not against) afterlife belief buffers mortality salience effects for atheists. British journal of social psychology. Volume 51, Issue 2, pp. 385–392.
     
    The best introduction to Terror Management Theory is a documentary produced by the Ernest Becker Foundation, which includes video of Greenberg, Solomon, and Pyszczynski's ingenious mortality salience experiments, found here:

    Denial of Death
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hi1C4NNnV4
     
    Of course, an afterlife belief is only one way to ameliorate mortality salience. I prefer the path of humility, i.e., accepting life for what it is, fleeting.

    Kesebir, P. (2014) A quiet ego quiets death anxiety: Humility as an existential anxiety buffer. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Vol 106(4), pp. 610-623.
     
    Those who desire heaven reveal themselves as egotistical narcissists. Nobody expresses that afterlife narcissism better than good ol' Rust Cohle:

    The ontological fallacy of expecting a light at the end of the tunnel, well, that’s what the preacher sells, same as a shrink. See, the preacher, he encourages your capacity for illusion. The he tells you it’s a fucking virtue. Always a buck to be had doing that. And it’s such a desperate sense of entitlement, isn’t it? Surely this is all for me. Me. Me, me, me. I, I. I’m so fucking important. I’m so fucking important, then, right? F--k you.

    –Rust Cohle, True Detective, Season 1, Episode 3
     

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  • I am in serious doubt whether you know the English language if you can’t tell how the genitive (possessive) case is used (‘s or ‘of the’). The possessive case can be confusing, especially when two nouns are doing the possessing. Little wonder, grammar is not taught in American schools (or reading or writing ‘skills’, for that matter – 20 to 23% of adults in the U.S., are limited to reading at the basic or below basic proficiency levels – when they are not downright illiterate). I wonder whether you ever read the Declaration of Independence.
    Jefferson used the short form of the possessive case.

    The rejection of ‘Christian Platonism’ by Jefferson is illustrative of his own intellectual limitations and of his superficial knowledge of the classics. He never studied Plato (“I amused myself with reading seriously Plato’s Republic. I am wrong however in calling it amusement, for it was the heaviest task-work I ever went through. I had occasionally before taken up some of his other works, but scarcely ever had patience to go through a whole dialogue”), which did not prevent him pontificate about the malfeasance of his philosophy in true ‘intellectual yet idiot’ fashion. All his’knowledge’ of Plato came from the famous “English theologian, English Dissenters clergyman, natural philosopher, chemist, innovative grammarian, multi-subject educator, and Liberal political theorist” Joseph Priestley (a Mason, member of the “Lunar Society” – the ‘Lunarticks’, as they called themselves). Jefferson believed in the ‘divine institution of the Sabbath’! His God was the Jewish God of Protestantism and Islam, of the Masons and Illuminati (he was a Mason). “The grander project to liberate the world from the ghostly tyranny of supernatural religion” was their project also. Jefferson was not only an ‘intelectual yet idiot”. He was also a ‘useful idiot’ for the World Revolution.

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    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    You just cannot stop lying! Another example from your diatribe of falsehoods above: Jefferson was not a Mason.

    Thomas Jefferson's connections to fraternal organizations have often been misunderstood. He is frequently, yet falsely, linked to the Freemasons. Comments that he made in his correspondence suggest that he had a generally negative opinion of fraternal organizations.

    http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/fraternal-organizations
     
    If your job is to make Christian apologists look mendacious, you're succeeding. LiarsForJesus.com indeed!
    , @Anon
    Obsession of certain Americans by the legacy of Jefferson is almost ridiculous. The writings of this 'founding father' (i.e. disguised brother mason building the foundation of their 'temple') are translated to Russian also. I have his 'history of Virginia' on my bookshelf. Quite a mediocre work, so typical for educated rural landlords throughout Europe of that times. His political adventurism was a kind of remedy from countrylife boredom. Just imagine Squire Trelawney composing the masonic 'Declaration of Whatever' together with Captain Smollet crossing the Delaware. The America's own writer, Mark Twain, has a clue:



    THE STORY OF A GALLANT DEED

    THIS INDENTURE, made the tenth
    Day of November, in the year
    Of our Lord one thousand eight
    Hundred six-and-fifty,

    Between Joanna S. E. Gray
    And Philip Gray, her husband,
    Of Salem City in the State
    Of Texas, of the first part,

    And O. B. Johnson, of the town
    Of Austin, ditto, WITNESSETH:
    That said party of first part,
    For and in consideration

    Of the sum of Twenty Thousand
    Dollars, lawful money of
    The U. S. of Americay,
    To them in hand now paid by said

    Party of the second part,
    The due receipt whereof is here--
    By confessed and acknowledg-ed
    Having Granted, Bargained, Sold, Remised,

    Released and Aliened and Conveyed,
    Confirmed, and by these presents do
    Grant and Bargain, Sell, Remise,
    Alien, Release, Convey, and Con--

    Firm unto the said aforesaid
    Party of the second part,
    And to his heirs and assigns
    Forever and ever ALL

    That certain lot or parcel of
    LAND situate in city of
    Dunkirk, County of Chautauqua,
    And likewise furthermore in York State

    Bounded and described, to-wit,
    As follows, herein, namely
    BEGINNING at the distance of
    A hundred two-and-forty feet,

    North-half-east, north-east-by north,
    East-north-east and northerly
    Of the northerly line of Mulligan street
    On the westerly line of Brannigan street,

    And running thence due northerly
    On Brannigan street 200 feet,
    Thence at right angles westerly,
    North-west-by-west-and-west-half-west,

    West-and-by-north, north-west-by-west,
    About--
     
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  • Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Steel T Post
    Nature has no laws? So things like gender and the 2nd law of thermodynamics are "social constructs." Where have we heard that before?

    Social constructs, really. If you display belief in evolution and e=mc2, you graduate from school and get a decent job today. Say this in 1096 AD and you get problems only. You cannot persuade me on most ‘science’ matters I don’t intend to believe, and say

    try telling a physicist that

    – that’s plain convention between humans: you HAVE TO respect physicists and the stuff they publish for social reasons (mutual trust in division of labor). The ‘scientists’, in turn, HAVE TO base their concepts on known conventions just to get new stuff, like machines and rockets – the same social reasons. Once they forget this and produce ‘dark matter’, ‘big bang’ and ‘gravity waves’, human reason is confused. Since ‘gravity waves’ give us nothing beneficial, we may allow these to be caused by itch of World Turtle.

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  • @Seraphim
    'God' is NOT 'Natura'.
    Since Spinoza the concept of 'natura' was degraded to mean the 'world', the 'cosmos' ('the created world') and then capitalized and venerated as God (idolized) which created the ongoing confusion we see in ignorant peoples' minds. But the Jeffersonian term 'Nature's God' is not the equivalent of 'Natura' (in actual fact Spinoza himself was differentiating between the 'Natura naturans' and 'Natura naturata').
    Jefferson was talking about the Laws which entitled the colonies to sever their ties with England.
    “When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”
    There are then the 'Laws of Nature' and the 'Laws of the God of the Nature'. Two separate sets of laws. This is what the laws of the English grammar impose. 'Nature's' is 'of the Nature'. So, it is 'The God of the Nature', a separate entity from Natura. The laws of the God of the Nature are more than the 'laws of Nature'. When Jefferson called this God in the most traditional fashion 'the Creator' and 'Divine Providence', most definitely he understood it as the God of the Bible (as all the Founding Fathers).
    'Laws of Nature' is in the context of the 'Declaration of Independence' what was always known in political philosophy as 'ius naturalis, δικαιον φυσικον' as opposed to the laws imposed by man (in the city - which may be in harmony with the 'laws of nature' given to the 'Nature' by God, or transgessions which ultimately can harm the good functioning of the society). 'Laws of Nature' were opposed to the laws given by the 'divine right of kings' which led to tyranny. ('The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States...').

    But Jefferson didn’t write “Laws of the God of the Nature.” You’re sticking your own words that suit your own theology in there. He wrote ‘Nature’s God.” Which means you’re lying again, which is so common for Gawd apologists like yourself that the lies concocted about the Founders have been documented at LiarsForJesus.com

    Fact is, the Founders were in a revolution against both Gawd and King. As Matthew Stewart, author of Nature’s God: The Heretical Origins of the American Republic, writes, “the project to free the American people from the yoke of King George III was part of a grander project to liberate the world from the ghostly tyranny of supernatural religion.”

    If you’re in doubt, Jefferson wrote that he hoped to effect a quiet euthanasia of your ilk’s ultra-Christian bigotry and fanaticism.

    “…invented by ultra-Christian sects…it is to be hoped, effect a quiet euthanasia of the heresies of bigotry and fanaticism…”

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, October 31, 1819
    http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/jefflet.html

    Also see: The Euthanasia of Platonic Christianity: Thomas Jefferson, Plato, Religion and Human Freedom (San Jose State University, 1993) scholarworks.sjsu.edu/etd_theses/689/

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  • @Seraphim
    Is in danger of hell fire "whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause", who says 'you fool' in anger. I am not angry with you. I did say 'You are a fool', but that it is not me (or Paul) who fooled you.
    You are angry with me. You are angry with Jesus whom you call worse that 'fool' (this is blasphemy).
    But "the fool said in his heart, There is no God".

    Mea culpa,

    A typo crept in: “I did say ‘You are a fool’”. Actually, it was: ‘I DID NOT SAY “You are a fool”‘ (as you accuse me), but that you let yourself to be fooled (by the Ehrman’s ilk). Accept my apologies.

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  • @Steel T Post
    God = Nature. Deus, sive Natura.

    Any other definition is a petulant rebellion against Nature's God, exhibiting the same psychology as transgender queers who are too in rebellion against Nature's God. Those in rebellion against Nature's God desire a new supra-Natural body with features and functions that Nature's God didn't provide them, e.g.: (a) Jesus rebelled against the testicles Nature's God provided (Mat. 19:11-12) and hoped for a sexless utopia (Matt. 22:30), hating life itself (John 12.25), and (b) Paul longed for a new magical body Nature's God hadn't provided him. (Two Corinthians 5)

    Wherefore by their fruitcakes ye shall know them—the rebellious supra-Naturalists who narcissistically attempt to place themselves above God by inventing a fantasy Gawd.

    ‘God’ is NOT ‘Natura’.
    Since Spinoza the concept of ‘natura’ was degraded to mean the ‘world’, the ‘cosmos’ (‘the created world’) and then capitalized and venerated as God (idolized) which created the ongoing confusion we see in ignorant peoples’ minds. But the Jeffersonian term ‘Nature’s God’ is not the equivalent of ‘Natura’ (in actual fact Spinoza himself was differentiating between the ‘Natura naturans’ and ‘Natura naturata’).
    Jefferson was talking about the Laws which entitled the colonies to sever their ties with England.
    “When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”
    There are then the ‘Laws of Nature’ and the ‘Laws of the God of the Nature’. Two separate sets of laws. This is what the laws of the English grammar impose. ‘Nature’s’ is ‘of the Nature’. So, it is ‘The God of the Nature’, a separate entity from Natura. The laws of the God of the Nature are more than the ‘laws of Nature’. When Jefferson called this God in the most traditional fashion ‘the Creator’ and ‘Divine Providence’, most definitely he understood it as the God of the Bible (as all the Founding Fathers).
    ‘Laws of Nature’ is in the context of the ‘Declaration of Independence’ what was always known in political philosophy as ‘ius naturalis, δικαιον φυσικον’ as opposed to the laws imposed by man (in the city – which may be in harmony with the ‘laws of nature’ given to the ‘Nature’ by God, or transgessions which ultimately can harm the good functioning of the society). ‘Laws of Nature’ were opposed to the laws given by the ‘divine right of kings’ which led to tyranny. (‘The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States…’).

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    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    But Jefferson didn't write "Laws of the God of the Nature." You're sticking your own words that suit your own theology in there. He wrote 'Nature's God." Which means you're lying again, which is so common for Gawd apologists like yourself that the lies concocted about the Founders have been documented at LiarsForJesus.com

    Fact is, the Founders were in a revolution against both Gawd and King. As Matthew Stewart, author of Nature's God: The Heretical Origins of the American Republic, writes, "the project to free the American people from the yoke of King George III was part of a grander project to liberate the world from the ghostly tyranny of supernatural religion."

    If you're in doubt, Jefferson wrote that he hoped to effect a quiet euthanasia of your ilk's ultra-Christian bigotry and fanaticism.

    "...invented by ultra-Christian sects...it is to be hoped, effect a quiet euthanasia of the heresies of bigotry and fanaticism..."

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, October 31, 1819
    www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/jefflet.html

    Also see: The Euthanasia of Platonic Christianity: Thomas Jefferson, Plato, Religion and Human Freedom (San Jose State University, 1993) scholarworks.sjsu.edu/etd_theses/689/
     

     
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  • @Seraphim
    Is in danger of hell fire "whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause", who says 'you fool' in anger. I am not angry with you. I did say 'You are a fool', but that it is not me (or Paul) who fooled you.
    You are angry with me. You are angry with Jesus whom you call worse that 'fool' (this is blasphemy).
    But "the fool said in his heart, There is no God".

    Do you lie pathologically, Seraphim? I’ve never said nor implied “there is no God,” and to do so is an outright falsehood, as evidenced here by my posts about Nature’s God. But then watching you lie about your own anger and weasel out of Jesus’ plain prohibition against calling people what you called me answers my question well enough. You would have made an excellent sea-lawyerin’ Pharisee. But do bang on about “blasphemy;” that’s rich!

    All I said was, “That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah!”

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  • @in the middle
    It sounds like saying the world is a globe. South American people hanging from tree tops for their very lives! Why do we measure 'sea level?", because it is flat, just like the surface it stands, the earth is flat! Obviously it is so difficult to believe the truth, that one sounds crazy to the brain washed multitude. It did sound crazy to me at first.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWiC3U8kbPY

    DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!

    It isn’t at all clear what you are replying to or what you are asserting or hypothesising. Are you by chance referring to the multiverse hypothesis?

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  • @Talha
    Hey WoO,

    Just one clarification...

    his inevitably anthropomorphic deity
     
    It seems Prof. Barrett is a Muslim (and pretty knowledgeable about Sufism - Khidr [as] is a figure that features heavily in Sufi doctrine) thus there is little doubt to me that his concept of God has very little to do with anthropomorphism (which is called 'tajseem' and is, at best, a heresy and, at worst, unbelief depending on which theologian is being asked).

    The overarching imperative has always been...
    "...There is nothing like unto Him, yet He is the Hearing, the Seeing." (42:10)

    Which the scholars explain as; if you can imagine 'it', then be sure 'it' is not Him.

    Peace.

    On the run I don’t think I mean much more than an empirical judgment that one’s deities are anthropomorphic because conceived by the human mind inevitably according to the limited capacities and features of the mind that evolution and 200,000 years of chatter allow. G-d is Good! What conceptions of good can one have that are not grounded in human experience and language developed for everyday existence?

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  • @Steel T Post
    Jesus: Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matthew 5:22)
    Seraphim: Thou "...fool...fool..."

    Never really believed Jesus' empty threats, did ya? Well, enjoy your eternal roasting in that mythological Norse underworld ruled by Loki's daughter Hell in which Buybull translators apparently thought Jesus believed! ;)

    Is in danger of hell fire “whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause”, who says ‘you fool’ in anger. I am not angry with you. I did say ‘You are a fool’, but that it is not me (or Paul) who fooled you.
    You are angry with me. You are angry with Jesus whom you call worse that ‘fool’ (this is blasphemy).
    But “the fool said in his heart, There is no God”.

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    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    Do you lie pathologically, Seraphim? I've never said nor implied "there is no God," and to do so is an outright falsehood, as evidenced here by my posts about Nature's God. But then watching you lie about your own anger and weasel out of Jesus' plain prohibition against calling people what you called me answers my question well enough. You would have made an excellent sea-lawyerin' Pharisee. But do bang on about "blasphemy;" that's rich!

    All I said was, "That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah!"
     
    , @Seraphim
    Mea culpa,

    A typo crept in: "I did say ‘You are a fool’". Actually, it was: 'I DID NOT SAY "You are a fool"' (as you accuse me), but that you let yourself to be fooled (by the Ehrman's ilk). Accept my apologies.

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  • @Anon
    Sure nature has no laws. Laws are either convened by humans (contrait social) or granted from above (the Covenant). Humans only apply this social consctruct to nature they perceive. As a result, they receive laws of their perception of nature, not the nature itself. That's the philosophy.

    Nature has no laws? So things like gender and the 2nd law of thermodynamics are “social constructs.” Where have we heard that before?

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Social constructs, really. If you display belief in evolution and e=mc2, you graduate from school and get a decent job today. Say this in 1096 AD and you get problems only. You cannot persuade me on most 'science' matters I don't intend to believe, and say

    try telling a physicist that
     
    - that's plain convention between humans: you HAVE TO respect physicists and the stuff they publish for social reasons (mutual trust in division of labor). The 'scientists', in turn, HAVE TO base their concepts on known conventions just to get new stuff, like machines and rockets - the same social reasons. Once they forget this and produce 'dark matter', 'big bang' and 'gravity waves', human reason is confused. Since 'gravity waves' give us nothing beneficial, we may allow these to be caused by itch of World Turtle.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    Can the author explain why trying to glean wisdom or ethics from consideration of his inevitably anthropomorphic deity has got any advantages over trying to infer from the nature and history of man and from evolution what the world of 50 or 100 years hence would be like if it allowed for minimum human misery and no radical destruction of the means for improving man's lot and the best of past culture, and then trying to find a path towards that future, in the meantime persuading mad theists to entertain enough modest doubt to allow the sane and ordinary to get on with the project?

    And what's wrong with multiverses? Any eternal anthropomorphic deity is going to be so lonely and bored that setting off a million big bangs a minute is just what one should expect.

    It sounds like saying the world is a globe. South American people hanging from tree tops for their very lives! Why do we measure ‘sea level?”, because it is flat, just like the surface it stands, the earth is flat! Obviously it is so difficult to believe the truth, that one sounds crazy to the brain washed multitude. It did sound crazy to me at first.

    DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    It isn't at all clear what you are replying to or what you are asserting or hypothesising. Are you by chance referring to the multiverse hypothesis?
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  • […] Take this essay by Kevin Barrett, an Islamologist who gained some notoreity for arguing that 9/11 was an inside job. It is a review of a book by David Ray Griffin, a theologian best known for making similar arguments about 9/11. The book is both a defence of the existence of God and a critique of popular conceptions of the Almighty. There is no level on which this essay is not embarrassing. […]

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  • @Steel T Post
    Nature has no laws? That's odd, try telling a physicist that. Try throwing a mountain into the sea, (Mt. 21:21) and see whose Law is paramount, that of Nature's God, or the supra-Natural Gawd Jesus worshiped.

    Sure nature has no laws. Laws are either convened by humans (contrait social) or granted from above (the Covenant). Humans only apply this social consctruct to nature they perceive. As a result, they receive laws of their perception of nature, not the nature itself. That’s the philosophy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    Nature has no laws? So things like gender and the 2nd law of thermodynamics are "social constructs." Where have we heard that before?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @RandF
    For me it has always boiled down to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, that because the universe has not tended toward heat and chaos but gotten considerably more complicated and interesting therefore refuting the expected chaotic end, that the reversible part of the equation is the definition of God who loves us and we are part of his creation.

    It's possible they were wrong about the cause of red shift and maybe our universe unlike raisin cake batter in the oven is not expanding. We are even now able to see the tiny bits of something from nothing popping up in space, this is no accident and it is real and totally argues for another dimension interacting with ours.

    God or Gods! Everything IS awesome again.

    We are even now able to see the tiny bits of something from nothing popping up in space, this is no accident and it is real and totally argues for another dimension interacting with ours.

    Long-term memory: scaling of information to brain size

    [MORE]

    For all these storage alternatives, the thinking is conventional in that long-term memory is held to be within the brain, and the hydrocephalic cases remain hard to explain. Yet currently most of us, including the present author, would prudently bet on one or more of the stand-alone forms. The unconventional alternatives are that the repository is external to the nervous system, either elsewhere within the body, or extra-corporeal. The former is unlikely since the functions of other body organs are well understood. Remarkably, the latter has been on the table since at least the time of Avicenna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna ] and hypothetical mechanisms have been advanced (Talbot, 1991; Berkovich, 1993; Forsdyke, 2009; Doerfler, 2010). Its modern metaphor is “cloud computing.”

    Even though the internet emerged in the 1990s (Berners-Lee, 2010), it took two decades for cloud computing to become established (Furht, 2010). Imaginative attempts to relate this to the workings of individual brains (Talbot, 1991; Berkovich, 1993), still fall far short on evidence (Forsdyke, 2009). However, the rare hydrocephalic cases described here suggest we should exercise caution when tempted to cast aside the astonishing idea of personal information—long-term memory—being remotely stored. After all, Nature is not obliged to conform to our preconceptions. And, as Sherlock Holmes once said, “when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

    The importance of this extends far beyond neuroscience and the clinic. When speaking of extracorporeal memory storage we enter the domain of “mind” or “spirit,” with corresponding metaphysical implications (Crick, 1995; Draaisma, 2000; Forsdyke, 2009). We begin to “secularize the soul” (Hacking, 1995). Thus, there may be vestiges of truth amongst the dross that we poor creatures, imprisoned within the second decade of the twenty-first century, can comprehend no better than those imprisoned in the later decades of the nineteenth century would have comprehended Gregor Mendel, had they known of him (Cock and Forsdyke, 2008). And that which is now deemed metaphorical may not always remain so. Draaisma (2000) notes that metaphors can die and become literal. There are those who urge us to lift our eyes to new horizons (Talbot, 1991; Berkovich, 1993). While they may lack a formal training in neuroscience, we should listen carefully.

    http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00397/full

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Chuck Orloski
    Dear S2C,

    Having read most of your Unz Review posts for the past 6-months or so, I am honored by your making response to my comment on Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.

    As you know, his respect for science & faith is mature. In fact, I believe Paul the Apostle would refer to his spiritual writings as having reached a higher level of "solid" food rather than intake of the first-come/first- served "liquid." (Maybe the author of this article, K. Barrett, has looked de Chardin's way?)

    Teilhard passed away in 1955, 3-years after my birth in the Scranton State Hospital. He is buried in the cemetery of the Jesuit novitiate for the New York Province.

    One day prior to my inevitable departure, I want to visit de Chardin's grave, S2C. So I did a Google-search and found an article (below) written by a man who did happen to travel to Saint Andrew on the Hudson. Don't get alarmed at the mention of CIA! , with mentioning the CIA information in the article below.

    Thank you for all the affordable Continuing Education!

    To SolontoCroesus,

    I am trigger-happy with hitting the U.R. “Post Comment” tab, and below you will find the article by Ed Reilly which I wrote about in comment # 101 but failed to “link.” Don’t let Reilly’s CIA reference spook you!

    http://www.edreilly.info/teilhard.html

    Also, I wanted to post a “link” to Pierre Leroy S.J.’s thoughtful forward to Pierre Teilhard de Chardin’s book “The Divine Milieu” but I did not want to go over board and subsequently inspire you into genuflecting. Thanks again, S2C!

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  • @SolontoCroesus
    wow

    It has been years since I heard anyone mention de Chardin.

    Don't have Divine Milieu at hand right now, but a passage in the introduction still inspires:

    It goes something like this:

    "The look in his eyes when his eyes met yours renewed your confidence in yourself . . . Just to speak to him made you feel better; you knew that he was listening to you and that he understood you. His own faith was in the invincible power of love: men hurt one another by not loving one another."

    thanks, Chuck Orloski

    Dear S2C,

    Having read most of your Unz Review posts for the past 6-months or so, I am honored by your making response to my comment on Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.

    As you know, his respect for science & faith is mature. In fact, I believe Paul the Apostle would refer to his spiritual writings as having reached a higher level of “solid” food rather than intake of the first-come/first- served “liquid.” (Maybe the author of this article, K. Barrett, has looked de Chardin’s way?)

    Teilhard passed away in 1955, 3-years after my birth in the Scranton State Hospital. He is buried in the cemetery of the Jesuit novitiate for the New York Province.

    One day prior to my inevitable departure, I want to visit de Chardin’s grave, S2C. So I did a Google-search and found an article (below) written by a man who did happen to travel to Saint Andrew on the Hudson. Don’t get alarmed at the mention of CIA! , with mentioning the CIA information in the article below.

    Thank you for all the affordable Continuing Education!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Chuck Orloski
    To SolontoCroesus,

    I am trigger-happy with hitting the U.R. "Post Comment" tab, and below you will find the article by Ed Reilly which I wrote about in comment # 101 but failed to "link." Don't let Reilly's CIA reference spook you!

    http://www.edreilly.info/teilhard.html

    Also, I wanted to post a "link" to Pierre Leroy S.J.'s thoughtful forward to Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's book "The Divine Milieu" but I did not want to go over board and subsequently inspire you into genuflecting. Thanks again, S2C!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anon
    Homo sapiens makes classification, where he is called Homo sapiens. You can name yourself as you please, e.g. Pthirus pubis or Megalomaniacus grandiosus sp nov. In the same time, you can invent/proclaim Bozon or Whateverzon, E=XYZ2, Big Fart Theory or else. Without God this is only a convention, nature itself has no laws. Phlogiston and monades explained the nature circa 1750 quite enough for age of sail and gunpowder, like 'relativism' of modernity is quite enough for making nukes.

    Nature has no laws? That’s odd, try telling a physicist that. Try throwing a mountain into the sea, (Mt. 21:21) and see whose Law is paramount, that of Nature’s God, or the supra-Natural Gawd Jesus worshiped.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Sure nature has no laws. Laws are either convened by humans (contrait social) or granted from above (the Covenant). Humans only apply this social consctruct to nature they perceive. As a result, they receive laws of their perception of nature, not the nature itself. That's the philosophy.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Frayedthread
    Help! Our kindly host, Ron Unz, has unleashed a Sufi kook in our midst!
    Not that I disagree with the key points raised.

    Oh dear, I dare say you will not relinquish your beloved hollow cost delusion.

    Read More
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  • So God exists. Nothing follows. Everything remains just as it was.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Steel T Post
    Humans too are Animals, in the Great Ape family.

    Kingdom: Animalia
    Phylum: Chordata
    Class: Mammalia
    Order: Primates
    Superfamily: Hominoidea (Apes)
    Family: Hominidae (Great Apes)
    Tribe: Hominini
    Genus: Homo
    Species: H. sapiens

    And evolutionary psychology well explains morality, no superstitions necessary:

    • Good Natured: The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals. (1996) Harvard University Press
    • Rational Animals? (2006) Oxford University Press
    • Primates and Philosophers: How Morality Evolved. (2006) Princeton University Press
    • Wild Justice: The Moral Lives of Animals (2010) Chicago University Press
    • Moral Origins: The Evolution of Virtue, Altruism, and Shame. (2012) Basic Books

    Humans have no advantage over any other species of animal. Even the apikoros Qoheleth—the single author in the Bible worth reading—agrees:

    Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"
     
    You come from dust, and life itself is no more significant to Nature's God than dust in the wind or a rolling stone.

    [T]he origin and subsequent evolution of life follow from the fundamental laws of nature and “should be as unsurprising as rocks rolling downhill.”

    -A New Physics Theory of Life
    http://www.quantamagazine.org/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-life/
    (Unmentioned in the article, H. T. Odum (1994) and A. Lotka (1922) have already done the heavy lifting on a proposed Fourth Law of Thermodynamics that explains life via physics.)
     
    Dust in the wind, all we are is dust in the wind.

    Homo sapiens makes classification, where he is called Homo sapiens. You can name yourself as you please, e.g. Pthirus pubis or Megalomaniacus grandiosus sp nov. In the same time, you can invent/proclaim Bozon or Whateverzon, E=XYZ2, Big Fart Theory or else. Without God this is only a convention, nature itself has no laws. Phlogiston and monades explained the nature circa 1750 quite enough for age of sail and gunpowder, like ‘relativism’ of modernity is quite enough for making nukes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    Nature has no laws? That's odd, try telling a physicist that. Try throwing a mountain into the sea, (Mt. 21:21) and see whose Law is paramount, that of Nature's God, or the supra-Natural Gawd Jesus worshiped.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @A. BC
    The reason for asking what or who is God exactly is, was that everybody claims God exists/does not exist, does/does not etc. without specifying what he/she is actually talking about, so that we talk all about the same.

    God = Nature. Deus, sive Natura.

    Any other definition is a petulant rebellion against Nature’s God, exhibiting the same psychology as transgender queers who are too in rebellion against Nature’s God. Those in rebellion against Nature’s God desire a new supra-Natural body with features and functions that Nature’s God didn’t provide them, e.g.: (a) Jesus rebelled against the testicles Nature’s God provided (Mat. 19:11-12) and hoped for a sexless utopia (Matt. 22:30), hating life itself (John 12.25), and (b) Paul longed for a new magical body Nature’s God hadn’t provided him. (Two Corinthians 5)

    Wherefore by their fruitcakes ye shall know them—the rebellious supra-Naturalists who narcissistically attempt to place themselves above God by inventing a fantasy Gawd.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    'God' is NOT 'Natura'.
    Since Spinoza the concept of 'natura' was degraded to mean the 'world', the 'cosmos' ('the created world') and then capitalized and venerated as God (idolized) which created the ongoing confusion we see in ignorant peoples' minds. But the Jeffersonian term 'Nature's God' is not the equivalent of 'Natura' (in actual fact Spinoza himself was differentiating between the 'Natura naturans' and 'Natura naturata').
    Jefferson was talking about the Laws which entitled the colonies to sever their ties with England.
    “When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”
    There are then the 'Laws of Nature' and the 'Laws of the God of the Nature'. Two separate sets of laws. This is what the laws of the English grammar impose. 'Nature's' is 'of the Nature'. So, it is 'The God of the Nature', a separate entity from Natura. The laws of the God of the Nature are more than the 'laws of Nature'. When Jefferson called this God in the most traditional fashion 'the Creator' and 'Divine Providence', most definitely he understood it as the God of the Bible (as all the Founding Fathers).
    'Laws of Nature' is in the context of the 'Declaration of Independence' what was always known in political philosophy as 'ius naturalis, δικαιον φυσικον' as opposed to the laws imposed by man (in the city - which may be in harmony with the 'laws of nature' given to the 'Nature' by God, or transgessions which ultimately can harm the good functioning of the society). 'Laws of Nature' were opposed to the laws given by the 'divine right of kings' which led to tyranny. ('The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States...').
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • For me it has always boiled down to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, that because the universe has not tended toward heat and chaos but gotten considerably more complicated and interesting therefore refuting the expected chaotic end, that the reversible part of the equation is the definition of God who loves us and we are part of his creation.

    It’s possible they were wrong about the cause of red shift and maybe our universe unlike raisin cake batter in the oven is not expanding. We are even now able to see the tiny bits of something from nothing popping up in space, this is no accident and it is real and totally argues for another dimension interacting with ours.

    God or Gods! Everything IS awesome again.

    Read More
    • Replies: @FKA Max

    We are even now able to see the tiny bits of something from nothing popping up in space, this is no accident and it is real and totally argues for another dimension interacting with ours.
     
    Long-term memory: scaling of information to brain size


    For all these storage alternatives, the thinking is conventional in that long-term memory is held to be within the brain, and the hydrocephalic cases remain hard to explain. Yet currently most of us, including the present author, would prudently bet on one or more of the stand-alone forms. The unconventional alternatives are that the repository is external to the nervous system, either elsewhere within the body, or extra-corporeal. The former is unlikely since the functions of other body organs are well understood. Remarkably, the latter has been on the table since at least the time of Avicenna [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna ] and hypothetical mechanisms have been advanced (Talbot, 1991; Berkovich, 1993; Forsdyke, 2009; Doerfler, 2010). Its modern metaphor is “cloud computing.”

    Even though the internet emerged in the 1990s (Berners-Lee, 2010), it took two decades for cloud computing to become established (Furht, 2010). Imaginative attempts to relate this to the workings of individual brains (Talbot, 1991; Berkovich, 1993), still fall far short on evidence (Forsdyke, 2009). However, the rare hydrocephalic cases described here suggest we should exercise caution when tempted to cast aside the astonishing idea of personal information—long-term memory—being remotely stored. After all, Nature is not obliged to conform to our preconceptions. And, as Sherlock Holmes once said, “when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

    The importance of this extends far beyond neuroscience and the clinic. When speaking of extracorporeal memory storage we enter the domain of “mind” or “spirit,” with corresponding metaphysical implications (Crick, 1995; Draaisma, 2000; Forsdyke, 2009). We begin to “secularize the soul” (Hacking, 1995). Thus, there may be vestiges of truth amongst the dross that we poor creatures, imprisoned within the second decade of the twenty-first century, can comprehend no better than those imprisoned in the later decades of the nineteenth century would have comprehended Gregor Mendel, had they known of him (Cock and Forsdyke, 2008). And that which is now deemed metaphorical may not always remain so. Draaisma (2000) notes that metaphors can die and become literal. There are those who urge us to lift our eyes to new horizons (Talbot, 1991; Berkovich, 1993). While they may lack a formal training in neuroscience, we should listen carefully.
     
    - http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00397/full
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @A. BC
    But what or who is God exactly?

    The reason for asking what or who is God exactly is, was that everybody claims God exists/does not exist, does/does not etc. without specifying what he/she is actually talking about, so that we talk all about the same.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    God = Nature. Deus, sive Natura.

    Any other definition is a petulant rebellion against Nature's God, exhibiting the same psychology as transgender queers who are too in rebellion against Nature's God. Those in rebellion against Nature's God desire a new supra-Natural body with features and functions that Nature's God didn't provide them, e.g.: (a) Jesus rebelled against the testicles Nature's God provided (Mat. 19:11-12) and hoped for a sexless utopia (Matt. 22:30), hating life itself (John 12.25), and (b) Paul longed for a new magical body Nature's God hadn't provided him. (Two Corinthians 5)

    Wherefore by their fruitcakes ye shall know them—the rebellious supra-Naturalists who narcissistically attempt to place themselves above God by inventing a fantasy Gawd.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Pat the Rat
    Hello Jazzman.

    I knew you would find my post abhorrent. So thanks for replying

    I don't think it is so hard to reconcile the idea that God is completely good with the creation of men who have the will to do evil.

    There is no doubt that free will is a greater good than lack of free will.

    Two fathers have a son. One locks him up to keep him safe. The other gives him freedom to explore and accepts the risks.

    Who is morally superior? I think quite clearly the second father.

    On God not knowing evil.

    Moral evil is not just about free will, but knowledge. Many animals have a limited free will but their knowledge is so restrained they cannot be said to be evil in any sense we understand it.

    Likewise with God in the opposite way, God sees vastly more than we see, just as we see far more than animals. And so I believe he would recognize evil. I think he refrains from all evil and allows evil because of seeing further and stopping it would lead to far greater evils. We usually face exactly the same dilemma throughout our life from work to child-rearing.

    I said earlier I knew you would find my post abhorrent.

    Paul wrote in Corinthians: "And I did this so that your faith should not depend on human philosophy but on the power of God"

    The Christian view of the world as I understand it is essentially moral and sees morality as hierarchical, from solid matter, to animals, to man, to angels, to God. A growing moral awareness.

    Atheism seems to be an attempt to exclude this moral view from man and really in crude terms an attempt to take us back to being animals. You would know as well as me that many who reject God insist we are only animals.

    This is a crude characterization of course as many atheists are law abiding citizens so they do not reject morality altogether. But they do limit their vision and knowledge to man and government and trust the moral choices made by government as the most far sighted that can be made.

    But what happens when governments go bad and become evil, what happens to the atheist then? That was the point of my question to you about the Soviet policeman, which you did not answer.

    Thanks

    Humans too are Animals, in the Great Ape family.

    Kingdom: Animalia
    Phylum: Chordata
    Class: Mammalia
    Order: Primates
    Superfamily: Hominoidea (Apes)
    Family: Hominidae (Great Apes)
    Tribe: Hominini
    Genus: Homo
    Species: H. sapiens

    And evolutionary psychology well explains morality, no superstitions necessary:

    • Good Natured: The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals. (1996) Harvard University Press
    • Rational Animals? (2006) Oxford University Press
    • Primates and Philosophers: How Morality Evolved. (2006) Princeton University Press
    • Wild Justice: The Moral Lives of Animals (2010) Chicago University Press
    • Moral Origins: The Evolution of Virtue, Altruism, and Shame. (2012) Basic Books

    Humans have no advantage over any other species of animal. Even the apikoros Qoheleth—the single author in the Bible worth reading—agrees:

    Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

    You come from dust, and life itself is no more significant to Nature’s God than dust in the wind or a rolling stone.

    [T]he origin and subsequent evolution of life follow from the fundamental laws of nature and “should be as unsurprising as rocks rolling downhill.”

    -A New Physics Theory of Life

    http://www.quantamagazine.org/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-life/

    (Unmentioned in the article, H. T. Odum (1994) and A. Lotka (1922) have already done the heavy lifting on a proposed Fourth Law of Thermodynamics that explains life via physics.)

    Dust in the wind, all we are is dust in the wind.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Homo sapiens makes classification, where he is called Homo sapiens. You can name yourself as you please, e.g. Pthirus pubis or Megalomaniacus grandiosus sp nov. In the same time, you can invent/proclaim Bozon or Whateverzon, E=XYZ2, Big Fart Theory or else. Without God this is only a convention, nature itself has no laws. Phlogiston and monades explained the nature circa 1750 quite enough for age of sail and gunpowder, like 'relativism' of modernity is quite enough for making nukes.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Romi
    What, exactly, is the universe expanding into? Oz?

    I think I know the answer partly because a US born Australian astrophysicist Prof Brian Schmidt was awarded the Nobel Prize for discovering that our universe is not just expanding but expanding faster and faster. So I have been given reason in the Australian media to consider the expansion of the universe. And it seems that the answer is that it is not expanding into anything. It is merely space becoming a bigger space. Actually I think I first grasped that when I learned about the great initial inflation (which may or may not be universally accepted by cosmologists as established fact) which is most intriguing because, as I understand it, it involves our universe, immediately after the Big Bang, inflating at greater than the speed of light.

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  • @Seraphim
    Your thickness became opacity. You can't see that you fool yourself and make a fool of yourself. You can't understand what you read. Your Norse 'gawds' don't do much to enlighten your mind. Loki tricked you.

    Jesus: Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matthew 5:22)
    Seraphim: Thou “…fool…fool…”

    Never really believed Jesus’ empty threats, did ya? Well, enjoy your eternal roasting in that mythological Norse underworld ruled by Loki’s daughter Hell in which Buybull translators apparently thought Jesus believed! ;)

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Is in danger of hell fire "whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause", who says 'you fool' in anger. I am not angry with you. I did say 'You are a fool', but that it is not me (or Paul) who fooled you.
    You are angry with me. You are angry with Jesus whom you call worse that 'fool' (this is blasphemy).
    But "the fool said in his heart, There is no God".
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    As a lucid expositor of cosmic matters would you be so kind as to explain how one can talk sensibly of our universe consisting in part of Dark Energy.

    I understand that it is now said to be made up of 5 per cent regular matter (periodic table and associated quarks, muons etc), 25 per cent dark matter - which, as "matter" one can understand having mass - and 70 per cent Dark Energy (that I undestand is associated with the constant expansion of the universe).

    I understand that E=mc^2 means mass and energy are just two ways of accounting for the same stuff (though I can never remember the answer to the question "why is it true without specification of the units of measurement?"). But that doesn't really answer my question. It doesn't even get close to answering how we know 70 per cent or what yhat means...

    For completeness I first discuss dark matter, but perhaps you are already familiar with it.
    There is a statistically based method of estimating the distribution of energy between potential and kinetic energy. When astrophysicists found apparent deviations from Newton/Einstein theories of gravitation for visible matter they tried to alter the dependence on distance for gravitational interaction and made use of the above mentioned statistical theorems. But deduced that the usual 1/r^2 dependence still gave the best fit to the available data. So they had to assume there were large quantities of invisible matter. Due to the transparency of the universe over huge distances they also concluded that the missing matter could not be interacting electromagnetically since that would have decreased the transparency.
    Departing from established physics, it then appears necessary to look for new types of particles and string theorists are hoping they have got some workable ideas. An alternative would be to seek explanations among the still unused symmetries of established theory, the simplest of which would be time reversal. Planet orbits look the same in a time reversed scenario indicating that gravity wouldnt immediately reveal the time direction in connection with most types of motion. A clear exception is the case when bodies collide, but in that case time reversal makes the collision invisible since electromagnetic signals would converge on the sources instead of signalling the events.
    But are these hypothetical systems with different time directions different instances of matter or could they be the same matter as ‘seen’ from an unfamiliar perspective? A wealth of questions pop up… Apparently entropy calculations would be rendered more complicated.
    There are more interesting symmetries than simple time reversal but lets drop that subject.
    Dark energy is hypothetical and is connected with Hilbert /Einsteins theory of gravitaion and its use for estimating cosmic expansion and fitting it with observations.
    mc^2 has the unit of energy and is a generalisation of the commonly used formula for kinetic energy. I believe H Herz wrote about concealed motion.
    Ie it would be mostly internal motion which produces inertia/mass.
    (The standard model of particle physics purports to explain that differently)
    As long as 3D is concerned there is Newtons bucket experiment which provides an example of how seemingly an absolute reference system exists and appears to correspond to the global distribution of matter in the universe. But E=mc^2 could well be related to something beyond 3D. 3D is a property of electromagnetism and causality more than it is a reliable feature of the external world. The strange sides of quantum mechanics demonstrate that there is something we dont understand. Higher D for purely mathematical reasons when fluctuations are included, has to show up in an entirely different manner, probably like microscopic properties.

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  • 1.Who created the earth.the creator…..advanced technology

    2.Who made petrol.the creator…..a human

    If 2 is correct then why not 1.

    in fact it is more likely that earth was made by advanced technology just look at the advances in the last 10 years.unbelievable.

    If you were asked to choose between God creating earth and an advanced technology creating earth ….which would you choose knowing that science is discovering new data every second.

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  • Of course there is no personal god that you can have a conersation in English with and who has 10 fingers and 10 toes. Christianity is just a primitive superstition. The reason why this belief system has been so successful is because of prostelization to the masses. This is the same reason Buddhism has been successful in the east.

    And, sure Judaic religions are the dominant beliefs now, but that does not mean they always have been or always will be. I think as the west is exposed to more ideas they won’t think of their tradition as so preeminent.

    I somewhat agree with the concept of a ‘world soul’. However, I would just call it life. But, that doesn’t mean I’m burning frankincense or lighting candels. Teaching your kids, that’s all that matters to me.

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  • @Wizard of Oz
    As a lucid expositor of cosmic matters would you be so kind as to explain how one can talk sensibly of our universe consisting in part of Dark Energy.

    I understand that it is now said to be made up of 5 per cent regular matter (periodic table and associated quarks, muons etc), 25 per cent dark matter - which, as "matter" one can understand having mass - and 70 per cent Dark Energy (that I undestand is associated with the constant expansion of the universe).

    I understand that E=mc^2 means mass and energy are just two ways of accounting for the same stuff (though I can never remember the answer to the question "why is it true without specification of the units of measurement?"). But that doesn't really answer my question. It doesn't even get close to answering how we know 70 per cent or what yhat means...

    What, exactly, is the universe expanding into? Oz?

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I think I know the answer partly because a US born Australian astrophysicist Prof Brian Schmidt was awarded the Nobel Prize for discovering that our universe is not just expanding but expanding faster and faster. So I have been given reason in the Australian media to consider the expansion of the universe. And it seems that the answer is that it is not expanding into anything. It is merely space becoming a bigger space. Actually I think I first grasped that when I learned about the great initial inflation (which may or may not be universally accepted by cosmologists as established fact) which is most intriguing because, as I understand it, it involves our universe, immediately after the Big Bang, inflating at greater than the speed of light.
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  • @Steel T Post
    So you now admit Judaism is a lie, but then you trust a Judaic "Jews First" (Romans 1:16) cult anyway. Fool me once...

    Your thickness became opacity. You can’t see that you fool yourself and make a fool of yourself. You can’t understand what you read. Your Norse ‘gawds’ don’t do much to enlighten your mind. Loki tricked you.

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    • Replies: @Steel T Post
    Jesus: Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matthew 5:22)
    Seraphim: Thou "...fool...fool..."

    Never really believed Jesus' empty threats, did ya? Well, enjoy your eternal roasting in that mythological Norse underworld ruled by Loki's daughter Hell in which Buybull translators apparently thought Jesus believed! ;)
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  • @Seraphim
    Bart Ehrman is your typical 'middle-eastern' liar. He is one in a long series of semi-erudite pseudo-Christians (like all the peddlers of 'higher criticism') who walked the road of Damascus backwards, discovering the truth of the Talmud and 'renouncing' with much fanfare the false God of the Christians, who permitted the Holocaust. He is a 'cultural Jew' (if not a real one). I would classify him as one of the many pathetic 'intellectuals yet idiots' who infest the universities, the media, the show-business (and politics). Beware the semi-erudite who thinks he is an erudite. He fails to naturally detect sophistry. In parenthesis, Paul speaks about the lie of Judaism in which he was steeped before his meeting the Lord on the road to Damascus.

    So you now admit Judaism is a lie, but then you trust a Judaic “Jews First” (Romans 1:16) cult anyway. Fool me once…

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Your thickness became opacity. You can't see that you fool yourself and make a fool of yourself. You can't understand what you read. Your Norse 'gawds' don't do much to enlighten your mind. Loki tricked you.
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  • God exist and Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs are also for real.

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