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    Several readers have emailed in to congratulate me on having been mentioned in the New York Times. (Again: It happens about once per decade.) The white supremacists on the far right have “yellow fever” — an Asian woman fetish. It’s a confusing mix. Andrew Anglin, the founder of the neo-Nazi website The Daily Stormer, once...
  • @Truth

    If you look at the link and scroll down you will see a story ’bout the growing problem of prostitution. Are these hoes the African has been banging? Perhaps some.
     
    I think you misread the operative part of the post, Sport:

    He had no money
     

    I knew I’d regret that speed reading course! As for this guy,maybe these are whores with hearts of gold?

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  • As Sailer points out, more Euro men marry East Asian women than the reverse, and more Euro women marry African American men than the reverse. I’m sure this is a problem. Some black women aren’t happy when their fewer good men go for white women.

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  • Asian girls are more likely to be indifferent to a man’s perceived “racism.”

    Short guys go to Asia. White women police each other’s choices and socially unacceptable opinions will shut you out with many groups of white women, they won’t shut you out with asian girls.

    So it’s not surprising that the white men would go for asian women. It’s certainly not ideal, but it is a function of cultural dislocation. The same sort of thing that leads to negrophilia among otherwise intelligent white women (negroes hang out at the art museums to pick up women)

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  • @Father O'Hara
    Non whites love these stories of the tree swingers caught diddling the white wimmenz. If you look at the link and scroll down you will see a story 'bout the growing problem of prostitution. Are these hoes the African has been banging? Perhaps some.
    I don't know. A good solid round of horse-whipping seems to be in order.

    If you look at the link and scroll down you will see a story ’bout the growing problem of prostitution. Are these hoes the African has been banging? Perhaps some.

    I think you misread the operative part of the post, Sport:

    He had no money

    Read More
    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    I knew I'd regret that speed reading course! As for this guy,maybe these are whores with hearts of gold?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Is this an HBD site?

    Black males are on average taller, stronger, less hairy, more aggressive and have larger penises than White males.

    So comparatively White men are the chick magnets-for any woman?

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  • @Father O'Hara
    Non whites love these stories of the tree swingers caught diddling the white wimmenz. If you look at the link and scroll down you will see a story 'bout the growing problem of prostitution. Are these hoes the African has been banging? Perhaps some.
    I don't know. A good solid round of horse-whipping seems to be in order.

    Well, FWIW the non-white women I know who have married white men do so because they were nice, had good jobs, were very unlikely to annoy them by being macho jerks and were likely to be good fathers. So more for the beta rather than the alpha characteristics.

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  • @Ali Choudhury
    White women may beg to differ. This Nigerian asylum seeker had intercourse with 22 women in Iceland before being jailed for potentially infecting them with HIV. He had no money or prospects and just had his physical attractiveness going for him.

    https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/news/2016/09/20/charges_dropped_in_iceland_hiv_infection_case/

    Non whites love these stories of the tree swingers caught diddling the white wimmenz. If you look at the link and scroll down you will see a story ’bout the growing problem of prostitution. Are these hoes the African has been banging? Perhaps some.
    I don’t know. A good solid round of horse-whipping seems to be in order.

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    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    Well, FWIW the non-white women I know who have married white men do so because they were nice, had good jobs, were very unlikely to annoy them by being macho jerks and were likely to be good fathers. So more for the beta rather than the alpha characteristics.
    , @Truth

    If you look at the link and scroll down you will see a story ’bout the growing problem of prostitution. Are these hoes the African has been banging? Perhaps some.
     
    I think you misread the operative part of the post, Sport:

    He had no money
     
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  • @Johnny Smoggins
    Sexually, cerebral Whites and Asians are a good match as both are more likely to use their brains as sexual organs as much as their more functional sexual organs.

    With blacks and Hispanics it's just hump, hump, hump like rutting donkeys. Whites, particularly the higher IQ type that are drawn to the WN movement, and Asians are more likely to be interested in things like role play and fetishes.

    East Asian women are often very attractive. White men are the pinnacle of male attractiveness. Of course they will be drawn to each other.

    A tall handsome White man like me is an Asian chick magnet. That's just the way it is.

    The delusion here is so thick I can barely breathe.

    Corrected for accuracy:

    “East Asian women are often supremely ugly. White men are the pinnacle of androgynous prettiness. Of course they will seek each other in desperation for an evolutionary second chance.

    A tall but fey and fair man like me is an Asian slut magnet. That’s just the way it is.”

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    • LOL: Truth
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  • @Johnny Smoggins
    Sexually, cerebral Whites and Asians are a good match as both are more likely to use their brains as sexual organs as much as their more functional sexual organs.

    With blacks and Hispanics it's just hump, hump, hump like rutting donkeys. Whites, particularly the higher IQ type that are drawn to the WN movement, and Asians are more likely to be interested in things like role play and fetishes.

    East Asian women are often very attractive. White men are the pinnacle of male attractiveness. Of course they will be drawn to each other.

    A tall handsome White man like me is an Asian chick magnet. That's just the way it is.

    White women may beg to differ. This Nigerian asylum seeker had intercourse with 22 women in Iceland before being jailed for potentially infecting them with HIV. He had no money or prospects and just had his physical attractiveness going for him.

    https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/news/2016/09/20/charges_dropped_in_iceland_hiv_infection_case/

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    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    Non whites love these stories of the tree swingers caught diddling the white wimmenz. If you look at the link and scroll down you will see a story 'bout the growing problem of prostitution. Are these hoes the African has been banging? Perhaps some.
    I don't know. A good solid round of horse-whipping seems to be in order.
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  • @Sunbeam
    Funny I don't think Asian women are unattractive in general, but I've never gotten whatever excitement some people apparently feel about them.

    I think though that someone you can form a stable marriage with, and who will be a good mother to children is more important than any kind of "butter my biscuits" physical attraction.

    So if for some reason it was apparent an Asian woman was my best prospect and was willing, sure I'd marry her.

    But at the same time I'm also not going out of my way to meet Asian women. So I guess this one never happens.

    Is it OK for me to write Oriental instead of East Asian? I know it’s OK with the Orientals E. Asians, but how about to unz commenters who are supposedly not PC?
    Anyway, regarding –

    I think though that someone you can form a stable marriage with, and who will be a good mother to children is more important than any kind of “butter my biscuits” physical attraction.

    If you do leave the (usually) slimmer, hotter physique part “behind” (pun intentionally intended!), I think that the Oriental girls have this in their favor too. Walk around in China, and see the most of the girls in dresses and just acting like they are glad to be female, and you may see the attraction. In the Orient, the stupidity of feminism never got to anything near the level it has attained in the Western world.

    I’ll make a slight exception from that with China, as the Communists drilled in the concept of “everybody works” and “we are all the same in our Mao jackets and caps with our rice-bowl-templated haircuts”. I believe it’s hard for some Chinese women to get out of this mindset, regarding the former, even though they are not feminist in other ways.

    I don’t know what Miss Lim is bent out of shape about besides just wanting to point out hypocrisy in some parts of the alt-right to bring them down a notch. (It would only be the completely White Nationalist ones who could be considered hypocrites.) She should be glad her types are sought after, as maybe she will get lucky too. Try Oriental-Alt-Right-Cupid.com, Miss Lim. These sites are usually free for the girls. You have nothing to lose but your foolish pride and virginity.

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  • @Johnny Smoggins
    Sexually, cerebral Whites and Asians are a good match as both are more likely to use their brains as sexual organs as much as their more functional sexual organs.

    With blacks and Hispanics it's just hump, hump, hump like rutting donkeys. Whites, particularly the higher IQ type that are drawn to the WN movement, and Asians are more likely to be interested in things like role play and fetishes.

    East Asian women are often very attractive. White men are the pinnacle of male attractiveness. Of course they will be drawn to each other.

    A tall handsome White man like me is an Asian chick magnet. That's just the way it is.

    Speaking of Asian chicks going after white men, I’ve noticed a distinct pattern of ugliness among those who do go after white men.

    But it’s politically incorrect to notice such things.

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  • They have you as well as Richard Spencer and Andrew Anglin before they became race-conscious as anecdotal evidence. Doesn’t exactly seem like data to me.

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  • Funny I don’t think Asian women are unattractive in general, but I’ve never gotten whatever excitement some people apparently feel about them.

    I think though that someone you can form a stable marriage with, and who will be a good mother to children is more important than any kind of “butter my biscuits” physical attraction.

    So if for some reason it was apparent an Asian woman was my best prospect and was willing, sure I’d marry her.

    But at the same time I’m also not going out of my way to meet Asian women. So I guess this one never happens.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Is it OK for me to write Oriental instead of East Asian? I know it's OK with the Orientals E. Asians, but how about to unz commenters who are supposedly not PC?
    Anyway, regarding -

    I think though that someone you can form a stable marriage with, and who will be a good mother to children is more important than any kind of “butter my biscuits” physical attraction.
     
    If you do leave the (usually) slimmer, hotter physique part "behind" (pun intentionally intended!), I think that the Oriental girls have this in their favor too. Walk around in China, and see the most of the girls in dresses and just acting like they are glad to be female, and you may see the attraction. In the Orient, the stupidity of feminism never got to anything near the level it has attained in the Western world.

    I'll make a slight exception from that with China, as the Communists drilled in the concept of "everybody works" and "we are all the same in our Mao jackets and caps with our rice-bowl-templated haircuts". I believe it's hard for some Chinese women to get out of this mindset, regarding the former, even though they are not feminist in other ways.

    I don't know what Miss Lim is bent out of shape about besides just wanting to point out hypocrisy in some parts of the alt-right to bring them down a notch. (It would only be the completely White Nationalist ones who could be considered hypocrites.) She should be glad her types are sought after, as maybe she will get lucky too. Try Oriental-Alt-Right-Cupid.com, Miss Lim. These sites are usually free for the girls. You have nothing to lose but your foolish pride and virginity.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Sexually, cerebral Whites and Asians are a good match as both are more likely to use their brains as sexual organs as much as their more functional sexual organs.

    With blacks and Hispanics it’s just hump, hump, hump like rutting donkeys. Whites, particularly the higher IQ type that are drawn to the WN movement, and Asians are more likely to be interested in things like role play and fetishes.

    East Asian women are often very attractive. White men are the pinnacle of male attractiveness. Of course they will be drawn to each other.

    A tall handsome White man like me is an Asian chick magnet. That’s just the way it is.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Speaking of Asian chicks going after white men, I've noticed a distinct pattern of ugliness among those who do go after white men.

    But it's politically incorrect to notice such things.
    , @Ali Choudhury
    White women may beg to differ. This Nigerian asylum seeker had intercourse with 22 women in Iceland before being jailed for potentially infecting them with HIV. He had no money or prospects and just had his physical attractiveness going for him.

    https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/news/2016/09/20/charges_dropped_in_iceland_hiv_infection_case/
    , @üeljang
    The delusion here is so thick I can barely breathe.

    Corrected for accuracy:

    "East Asian women are often supremely ugly. White men are the pinnacle of androgynous prettiness. Of course they will seek each other in desperation for an evolutionary second chance.

    A tall but fey and fair man like me is an Asian slut magnet. That’s just the way it is."

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  • Somewhat coincidentally, we welcomed two nice lady journalists from Chinese Global Television to interview Richard Spencer at NPI headquarters on Monday.

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  • I have gotten many hundreds of emails–OK, three emails, but I am rounding up–asking me whether there is a super-race. There are different views on this matter, discussion being carried on with the manners of a hockey match. For people who have better things to do than study abnormal psychology, the players are briefly as...
  • Due to harsh competitive working and studies environment, in Japan for example, there is a higher suicide rate, and thus one may conclude that those are not very happy societies.

    If a greyhound is intelligent enough not to run after the mechanical hare in the track, it is euthanized.

    Intelligence is defined by math prowess, yet mathematical reasoning is only one among other components that constitute intelligence. Besides the rational type, there is the emotional or psychological form of intelligence, being the goal of this later the pursuit of happiness.

    What would you rather be, a math genius but a sad and unhappy individual or a person not so math intelligent, but more fulfilled and happily adapted to its social environment? I bet those Latinos lead a happier life that the other racial groups which score better in math and science.

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  • Two weeks in Yellowtopia. The first thing you notice, strolling around in a Chinese city — in this case Taipei, the capital of Taiwan — for the first time in many years, is the appalling absence of racial diversity. Everybody in Taipei is Chinese. Well, of course, not quite everybody. You come across a round-eye...
  • NOBODY hates Taiwan — especially after visiting there and meeting the people. Even the Mainlanders who visit love it. It is the most American of all places in Asia. If people like you, you’ll know it. If they don’t, you’ll know it. Great people who have built a democracy and infrastructure that works as well or better than most. The never abandoned traditional Chinese values like the Mainlanders and they turned their backs on “strong leaders” like Singapore. Only a small-hands moron like the author could take exception to this island and its people.

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  • @Duke of Qin
    Then you don't know the Chinese very well.

    The very term Han Chauvinism was coined by Mao no less.

    More modern examples are just a google search away. Try searching for "Chinese Privilege" and you get to enjoy wonderful examples such as the following.

    "To My Dear Fellow Singapore Chinese: Shut Up When a Minority is Talking about Race"

    Singapore is the most "Westernized" Chinese polity, hence it is also the most self destructive.

    Massive racial alien immigration - check.
    Abysmal native birth rates - check.
    Dark skinned race hustlers - check.
    Entitled invaders claiming they are responsible for everything good - check.
    Government hell bent on advocating political correctness and racial "harmony" - check.
    Assorted bourgeois intellectuals and tumblrista decrying privilege - check.

    The preconditions for full blown sjw outbreak is already present in Hong Kong and Taiwan. It's just that there are fewer dysfunctional brown helots to make martyrs out of there. English Tsai is just another example of the insidious nature of leftism which has seized the prestige points in the West to move their societies ever leftward. Though unlike Fauxcahontas, this cat lady actually does have some aboriginal ancestry.

    Massive racial alien immigration – check.
    Abysmal native birth rates – check.

    Well the first is a necessary consequence of the second, right? If they want to keep their economic engine well oiled that is.

    Dark skinned race hustlers – check.

    The Malays? Indians? Both?

    Entitled invaders claiming they are responsible for everything good – check.

    Now I’m lost. Most immigrants and expats to Singapore are skilled labors no?

    Government hell bent on advocating political correctness and racial “harmony” – check.

    LKY was very race aware AFAIK, so I’d thought his party the PAP, especially under his son would have at least tried to kept his wisdom in mind when forming policies. Or is the tide simply too strong?

    Assorted bourgeois intellectuals and tumblrista decrying privilege – check.

    This I’ve personally observed, so ya definitely believe you there.

    So goddamn, is Singapore actually that bad? Was seriously contemplating on living there for a couple years, since it’s a super developed nation with a predominantly Chinese population, which I am.

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  • I have gotten many hundreds of emails–OK, three emails, but I am rounding up–asking me whether there is a super-race. There are different views on this matter, discussion being carried on with the manners of a hockey match. For people who have better things to do than study abnormal psychology, the players are briefly as...
  • @Discard
    1. We have no idea what the average IQ of any Asian group is. Those that come to America are not chosen randomly, and their homelands are not about to release their own IQ statistics, if they have them. China could have a billion retards and we'd never know it.

    2. Really smart Whites, who might have been great scientists, are more likely to go into law or finance, where the pay for a really capable man is many multiples of a professor at Caltech. Our incentives steer the brilliant away from science.
    Also, smart American kids are very likely to take liberal arts. The Ivy League is full of them. The liberal arts are our culture, not Asians', and it does not interest them much. And the Asians take science because their parents make them do it.
    Altogether, at this point, academic science is a poor proxy for a nation's overall intelligence.

    3. If smart White women don't start having more smart babies, our prospects will be poor. No female should go beyond the 8th grade. If a girl's sharp enough to go to law school, the greatest contribution she could likely make to her society would be to have six kids.

    Chinese coming here are chosen with high IQ, possible on top 10% including some on top .001%. so comparing the achievement of immigrant from east Asian with the average white is meaningless. by the way I am Chinese.

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  • K says:

    You really want a super race? What i am about to say may not be PC but hey what the heck.

    Take all the high IQ (above 120. I say above 120 and not something like above 140 is because i have noticed that people with 120-140 IQ’s have higher ‘political intelligence’ than people above 140 who have more academic intelligence). So take all the 120 IQ above whites, ashkenazi jews, east/north east asians of reproductive age and initially form a ‘cultural’ group mandating that they have to marry only within that group. In a couple of generations you will get a ‘super race’. Advantage of taking the cream of various races is because it will reduce the incidences of any genetic illnesses found in a particular race.

    This way you will also get the best combination of ‘ruling blood’ and ‘inventing blood’.

    PS: Sorry not all :) Check for ASD’s, schizos, diabetics, hypertensives and any other genetic or non genetic or behavioural oddballness among them and if found dont include them in the group.

    This group should be ‘refreshed’ from time to time by the act of taking into the group newer high IQ people and also ‘easing out’ those born with an iq less than 120 from the group.

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  • K says:
    @anarchyst
    Whites are the only humans who have an individualistic streak. The concepts of freedom and personal responsibility, as well as the drive to explore, to go in a different direction, in spite of criticism from the "group".
    Asians have a strong work ethic, are good at copying others' inventions, and improving on them, but are still hamstrung by the social requirement to conform to the group culture. The eastern religion mindset permeates Asian culture, and promotes a fatalistic attitude throughout the culture. You will not see an Asian "George Washington" or "Thomas Jefferson". Documents, such as the Constitution and Declaration of Independence do not exist in any other culture, outside of white culture.
    Blacks have their own set of mores. They thrive under a "strong man" form of government, the tribal chief having total say-so over any decisions that affect the "tribe". The closer one (is allowed to) sit to the chief, the higher the status. The chief makes all of the decisions, even to the point of life and death.
    The "fly in the ointment" among white culture (and only white culture) is the misplaced sense of "externalized altruism". "Looking out for the other guy" has resulted in the white race being marginalized, and blamed for all of the world's ills, despite the white race contributing the most to the betterment of all mankind. As other races gain strength, and political power, whites WILL be wiped out. This "externalized altruism" has to be abandoned, and replaced with internalized altruism, just as every other race has done.
    On a worldwide basis, whites are approximately 6% of the population. This, in itself, should result in recognition that whites, being the TRUE minority on earth, should be the most cherished and protected of minorities.

    Anarchist,

    I have rarely seen such ignorance in a single comment. You really dont know anything about asians. (I kid you not). If other races did not have the drive to explore how did anatomically modern humans even populate the earth? And concepts of freedom, personal responsibility, altruism exist in them too. And they have constitutions too. You also said asians copy others.

    Look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions.

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  • From the NYT op-ed page: The Truth About New York City’s Elite High Schools By DAMON HEWITT MARCH 22, 2017 This month, a select group of eighth graders in New York City found out that they were being offered a spot at some of the nation’s best high schools, the eight “specialized” city public high...
  • @FKA Max

    By and large, we are not your enemy here.
     
    According to Samuel P. Huntington -- who, by the way attended Stuyvesant HS -- you are, at least as a civilization. I like you personally/individually, and I appreciate your contributions/comments here at the Unz Review, but first and foremost we need to take care of our own (civilization):

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/articlePictures/S.%20Huntington%20-%20Clash%20of%20Civilizations%20Chart%20(1996).jpg


    But, I think, qualitatively, Chinese immigrants are far more dangerous and can do a lot more damage and harm to the U.S., e.g., industrial and military espionage, takeover of higher education institutions, etc., than African Americans or Hispanics could ever do, because of their higher IQs.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/forum/white-students-unfair-advantage-in-admissions/#comment-1748458

    This was actually my original point, that corrupt and sociopathic/psychopathic high(er)-IQ individuals/races can do a lot more damage than low(er)-IQ ones, in terms of financial damage caused by their crimes, etc., and many so-called “race realists” and IQists completely ignore this dynamic, or even welcome it, which really makes them Social Darwinists, in my opinion.
    [...]
    I think Social Darwinsts are dangerous.

    I personally believe Chinese immigration to the U.S. is a greater threat to America than Mexican immigration for example, precisely because of their high IQs and the high prevalence of the low-activity MAOA allele in their gene pool, which is associated with psychopathy/anti-social behavior: http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1725649

    I still do not want the Hispanic and Black populations in the U.S. to grow, because it is not good for the traditionally Northern European/Protestant culture and innovativeness of the country. This is why I support Planned Parenthood, want immigration to stop, and oppose amnesty, birthright citizenship and the Catholic Church [ http://www.population-security.org/ ], etc.
     

    - http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1731013

    You’re just more comfortable with grinding swot work being confused with actual ability. And much more comfortable with open cheating.
    [...]
    I refer to it as the “Social Darwinist” mindset, which is quite common among evolutionary psychologists and IQ-ists
    [...]
    Here we show that ethnocentrism eventually overcomes its closest competitor, humanitarianism, by exploiting humanitarian cooperation across group boundaries as world population saturates. Selfish and traitorous strategies are self-limiting because such agents do not cooperate with agents sharing the same genes. Traitorous strategies fare even worse than selfish ones because traitors are exploited by ethnocentrics across group boundaries in the same manner as humanitarians are, via unreciprocated cooperation.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1805469

    OT:
    I believe I discovered the cause for my original comment being “ weirdly mangled” and “disfigured” by the commenting software: Namely my use of square brackets [] in combination with (possibly an URL and) the blockquote coding command.
    Here, without the square brackets, how the transition between the two quotes should have properly/actually looked like. Excerpt:

    [...] and the Catholic Church http://www.population-security.org/ , etc.

    http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1731013

    You’re just more comfortable with grinding swot work being confused with actual ability. And much more comfortable with open cheating. [...]

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1805469

    ———–

    I think what makes cheating on the SAT, etc. so attractive, is that the reward/payout is potentially huge, and the risk (and punishment) is still relatively low.

    “With so many Chinese students wanting to study in the U.S., it’s natural that these fraudulent practices are spreading here, where security is comparatively low.”
    Last spring, Zou, her boyfriend, and 13 other current and former U.S. college students from China were arrested and last month pleaded guilty in Pittsburgh for their part in the scheme. Most will be deported.
    [...]
    “Middle-class and wealthy Chinese parents are putting enormous pressure on their children to gain admission to prestigious U.S. colleges,” she said. “Add to that, there is a cultural disconnect—many Chinese families don’t realize how seriously Americans take these kind of infractions.”

    https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/03/how-sophisticated-test-scams-from-china-are-making-their-way-into-the-us/474474/

    This is what is important to understand — which many (White/Northern European) people in my experience still fail to realize — and what distinguishes lower IQ (Africans, etc.) from higher IQ (mostly East Asians and Jews) high-frequency low-activity MAOA carrier populations/groups: Higher IQ low-activity MAOA carriers can much better gauge and “calculate” risk than lower IQ low-activity MAOA carriers can, and therefore engage in very different types of crimes, and they do so often undetected and much more successfully than their fellow lower IQ low-activity MAOA carriers.

    successful psychopaths – corporate climbers involved in irregular crime who tend to have had more privileged background with little risk of legal penalties.
    unsuccessful psychopaths – involved in regular crime who tend to have had less privileged backgrounds and much higher risk of legal penalties.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy_in_the_workplace#General

    This is why I shared the paper about white-collar crime in Asia and in Japan above, which is a field not very well researched and understood, yet.

    High(er)-IQ Asians are smart enough to know, that it is not worth taking the risk of committing a white-collar crime if the payout is small. Blacks usually don’t think in terms of a risk-reward ratio when they commit crimes, in my experience.

    Also, even if some Blacks had access to the higher levels and positions of power within the financial and business sector in America, they would just not have high enough IQs to pull off big-scale ponzi schemes and cons à la Bernie Madoff, in my opinion.

    One needs opportunity AND ability (a high(er) IQ) to commit and pull off these high value white-collar crimes.

    Blacks’ lower average IQ prevents them from committing high value/high category types of white-collar crimes, in my opinion.

    http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1731013

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  • @Father O'Hara
    Best Black High would be an interesting place.

    The best black high schools are Benjamin Banneker (DC), Medgar Evers Prep (Brooklyn), Gwendolyn Brooks (Chicago), and Providence St. Mel (private Chicago).

    The best white high schools may be Walt Whitman (Bethesda, MD) and Adlai Stevenson (Lincolnshire, IL). The best white high schools soon get taken over by Asians. Bergen County Academies (NJ) is now half Asian, mostly Korean who have their own parent association to help new arrivals to the country get their children into BCA.

    The best Asian high schools are Thomas Jefferson High School of Science and Technology (Fairfax County, VA) and Stuyvesant (Manhattan). There are also six or so Asian majority in Silicon Valley.

    The best Hispanic high school is Preuss School UCSD, a charter school located on the campus of UC San Diego. It is only for low-income students. Since it is located in ritzy La Jolla, CA and about an hour bus ride away, only the most determined students attend.

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  • @Truth



    What would seem reasonable then would be to have an elite school for each race\ethnicity. Best Asian High, Best Jewish High, Best Black High, Best Hispanic High, Best White High, Best Other High
     
    Extremely reasonable, Dad. But probably only in a land where butterscotch-flavored gumdrops fall from the sky.

    Best Black High would be an interesting place.

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    • Replies: @Triumph104
    The best black high schools are Benjamin Banneker (DC), Medgar Evers Prep (Brooklyn), Gwendolyn Brooks (Chicago), and Providence St. Mel (private Chicago).

    The best white high schools may be Walt Whitman (Bethesda, MD) and Adlai Stevenson (Lincolnshire, IL). The best white high schools soon get taken over by Asians. Bergen County Academies (NJ) is now half Asian, mostly Korean who have their own parent association to help new arrivals to the country get their children into BCA.

    The best Asian high schools are Thomas Jefferson High School of Science and Technology (Fairfax County, VA) and Stuyvesant (Manhattan). There are also six or so Asian majority in Silicon Valley.

    The best Hispanic high school is Preuss School UCSD, a charter school located on the campus of UC San Diego. It is only for low-income students. Since it is located in ritzy La Jolla, CA and about an hour bus ride away, only the most determined students attend.
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  • @FKA Max
    Minor correction: One ``the'' too many, just: I truly believed in *the* beginning...

    Here is the direct quote from Steven Pinker:

    [T]he low-activity version of the gene is even more common in Chinese men ([55] percent of whom carry it), and the Chinese are neither descended from warriors in their recent history nor particularly prone to social pathology in modern societies.
     
    - http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.com/2011/10/kill-popular-science.html

    He (deliberately?) ignores or does not seem to be aware of the high number of pathological gamblers among Asians/Chinese, that I pointed to above. I believe Sheldon Adelson (a modern-day David Sassoon?) makes most of his money in Macau, nowadays.

    Coincidentally, a commenter also named ``max'' (it wasn't me) notes the following:

    max said...

    Perhaps a little research into history would debunk your assessment here? The Chinese have throughout their history been [g]overn[ed] under a feudal, agrarian, and hierarchical system and China itself was always been rife with wars, in fact far more frequently than have Colonial Sea Powers and in larger scope all the way up till WW1. [...]
     
    This Asian ``gaming/warring spirit'' has moved on to new casinos/battlefields as Mr. Sailer pointed out:

    SAT Scandal: The Global Tong War Over Test Scores

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/sat-scandal/


    ...focus on reforming testing so it isn’t gamed by new forces that a dynamic but naive mid-Century WASP like James Bryant Conant couldn’t have anticipated.
    [...]
    But globalization should have wiped out that confidence. This is global tong war over test scores.

    But Americans have yet to figure out what’s going on. That would be racist.
     

    Law-enforcement officials in this country say that highly organized rings of college-admission-exams imposters—once considered a unique artifact of the high-stakes, test-driven Chinese education system—have arrived on U.S. shores.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/sat-scandal/#comment-1544526

    Addressing Pathlogical Gambling among Asian Clients

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sTjM8J-MNs

    Some more interesting studies on low-activity MAOA and pathological gambling, risk-taking in general, and aggression:

    Pathological gambling and DNA polymorphic markers at MAO-A and MAO-B genes.

    Allele variants at the MAOA, but not the MAOB gene may be a genetic liability factor in PG, at least in severe male gamblers.

    – Ibanez et al. (2000) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10673777

    Concurrent positive association between pathological gambling and functional DNA polymorphisms at the MAO-A and the 5-HT transporter genes

    Allelic frequency of the 3-copy allele was significantly higher in gamblers (44.9%) than in controls (32.6%) (P = 0.043) (Table 1). Interestingly, women showed exactly the same genotypic distribution whereas the differences for the 3-copy allele frequency were more significant between males than between total populations (55.3% among gamblers vs 37.2% among controls, P = 0.011). This association was stronger for the more severe male subpopulation (P = 0.002). Finally, the relative risk of the 3-copy allele was 1.73 for the male gamblers (95% CI, 1.06-2.83, P < 0.05), and, among them, 2.12 for the more severe patients (95% CI, 1.31-3.44, P < 0.0001).

    – Perez de Castro et al. (2002) http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v7/n9/full/4001148a.html

    MAOA-L carriers are better at making optimal financial decisions under risk

    Consistent with previous literature, we found that carriers of the MAOA-L polymorphism were more likely to take financial risks. Our computational choice model, rooted in established decision theory, showed that MAOA-L carriers exhibited such behaviour because they are able to make better financial decisions under risk, and not because they are more impulsive.
    [...]
    The computational approach used in the paper allowed us to conclude that MAOA-L carriers are more likely to take a financial risk than their MAOA-H counterparts, but only when it is advantageous to do so given their preferences over risk. For disadvantageous gambles, there was no difference between the two groups. This suggests that MAOA-L carriers perform better in the case of risky financial decision-making because they exhibit an improved ability to select the optimal response when it is advantageous

    – Frydman et al. (2010) http://www.rnl.caltech.edu/publications/pdf/frydman2011.pdf

    This is the most interesting part, and could explain why Asians (and Jews in the past) get much more upset and “pro-testy” than Caucasians when they are being discriminated against by “holistic admission” policies of elite universities:

    Now, studies have triggered aggression in MAOA-3R men with much more immediate experimental adversities in the form of game unfairness.
    [...]
    For instance, low IQ does not increase violent tendencies in men with MAOA-4R, but it does in men with MAOA-3R.

    http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.com/2012/12/scientists-rediscover-violence-gene.html

    MAOA genotype, social exclusion and aggression: an experimental test of a gene–environment interaction Gallardo-Pujol (2012) http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1601-183X.2012.00868.x/abstract

    Monoamine oxidase A gene (MAOA) predicts behavioral aggression following provocation McDermott (2008) http://www.pnas.org/content/106/7/2118.full.pdf

    As a consequence, Asians appear under-represented relative to Jews by a factor of seven, while non-Jewish whites are by far the most under-represented group of all, despite any benefits they might receive from athletic, legacy, or geographical distribution factors. The rest of the Ivy League tends to follow a similar pattern, with the overall Jewish ratio being 381 percent, the Asian figure at 62 percent, and the ratio for non-Jewish whites a low 35 percent, all relative to their number of high-ability college-age students.
    [...]
    But it seems rather odd that all of these other gains would have come at the expense of whites of Christian[/Protestant] background, and none at the expense of Jews.

    http://www.unz.com/forum/white-students-unfair-advantage-in-admissions/#comment-1748458

    The Lightning Rod: Race and Admissions at Harvard

    http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2017/3/22/race-and-admissions-at-harvard/

    Dershowitz, who mentioned Lowell’s policies in a recent book, says this “long, terrible history of discrimination” needs to be acknowledged by Harvard today.

    “[Lowell] was a bigot of the worst order and there should be no house named after him,” he says. “Talk about changing names, if you’re going to change names, the first one to go should be Lowell.”

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  • @Bill
    So, if we made a rule "No more than 10% Asian at Harvard," you'd be OK with that?

    As I mentioned before, I’ll be okay with anything so as long as it was transparently declared.

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    Just because a study is older doesn't mean that it is less accurate*; Dutton's study employed, among other things, an anonymous website on something which would clearly can produce inaccurate data and further conflated East Asians with South Asians, who are very different genetically. The article itself mentions this:

    I would like to point out that this survey is not a scientific one and is not peer-reviewed, so the quality of its methodology is unclear.
     

    I think its far safer to bank on actually peer-reviewed medical studies in such a case, all which are pretty cohesive, and in addition to dihydrotestosterone,


    Lower testicle size and sperm production:
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.1939-4640.1998.tb02015.x/pdf

    Higher copies of CAG, which reduce sensitivity to testosterone. Whites also have more copies than Africans:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12202660


    And in the first study sperm production in Chinese men is also less than half of that estimated for Hispanic and Caucasian men; notable because it actually reduced the population size to Chinese men as opposed to conflating SEA Asians.

    This is one of those things where the empirical evidence pretty much is consistent with observed data. Honestly, its as simple as observing bulking behavior and noticing that traditionally Orientals have MUCH harder time bulking. Its not in an usable form for us, mostly.


    *Indeed, the older and more that a study has survived replication studies, the more reliable it can be.

    For prostate cancer incidence, Dutton et al. found: Caucasian > Asian = African.

    I just discovered a very simple and probable reason for Dutton et al.’s unexpectedly low prostate cancer rates in Africans. Lynn and Rushton might be more correct than I thought on this particular issue:

    Prostate cancer develops mainly in older men. About 6 cases in 10 are diagnosed in men aged 65 or older, and it is rare before age 40. The average age at the time of diagnosis is about 66.

    https://www.cancer.org/cancer/prostate-cancer/about/key-statistics.html

    Some of the countries Dutton et al.’s data in Africa is from:

    Kenya male life expectancy: 61.1 years

    Nigeria: 53.4 years

    Niger: 60.9 years

    Mali: 58.2 years

    Gambia: 59.8 years

    Senegal: 64.4 years

    Guinea: 58.2 years

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

    The higher the life expectancy, plus the higher the testosterone levels or sensitivity, the higher the prevalence of prostate cancer. Makes sense.

    For androgenic hair, Dutton et al. found: Caucasian > Asian > African.

    And the Neanderthal DNA could be the explanation why Asians have more androgenic hair than Africans, but less androgenic hair than Caucasians, despite having slightly more Neanderthal DNA, because of their lower testosterone levels and sensitivity compared to Caucasians.

    I stand corrected on these particular findings.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1818232

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  • @bored identity
    Fake News or NYT editorial ?



    Slander Properly Low Center just issued their latest What The Fatwa ? denouncing major chocolate milk producer for a cultural insensitivity and appropriation of body of Brown Rabbit wearing a large scarlet blue "N" on a collar-like necklace.

    The shire existence of Qiucky in the year of 2017 is deeply disturbing.

    Quik Brown Bunny (a.k.a. Quicky) undermines normal academic development of young African Americans by unwittingly perpetuating all kind of worst racial stereotypes of this vulnerable community.

    Quicky's emblematic message to preadolescent African Americans has a devastating effect on their self-esteem; Quicky depicts them as of being not only some of kind happy-go-lucky,extremely well athletically suited, and uppity-hippity-hoppity, running escalators, long-eared piccanninies , but also implying inherited inability to focus and being quite easy to distract in comparison to the rest of their peers.

    Young Africans Americans should know that their brown bodies are not agile,but fragile.

    It's time for Nestle to retire Quicky The Brown Rabbit, and introduce Smuggy The Black Bear:

    http://russcook.blogspot.com/2014/03/neil-degrasse-tyson.html

     

    Re: the second paragraph: this is not a NYT editorial unless those fools now don’t even know how to spell “sheer.”

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  • @Johnny B.
    All white ethnic groups have not seamlessly assimilated into the Anglo-American culture. New York is a perfect example of this. You have Catholic Southern European, Orthodox Jewish, and Orthodox Eastern European enclaves.

    The vast, and I mean VAST majority of “Catholic Southern European” Americans do not live in such enclaves, and they are thoroughly long assimilated into Anglo-American culture. Same for Americans of Slavic / Eastern European descent.

    There may be no white European group of any substantial numbers in the USA that has refused to failed to assimilate thoroughly. (No, I’m not counting Middle Eastern or North African people.)

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    I did actually want to reply to you, but was later in the day.

    I've mentioned before that I don't have any objection to nativists who want to defend their culture or control immigration; and SPMoore8 has noted how its frustrating for any minority group to dominate the high status institutions, including universities.

    This is not a new rodeo to me, or us; much as the Jewish have been, Chinese have been the frequent target of pogroms. In Southeast Asia, despite being largely the authors of much prosperity there - at some point, it doesn't matter if you add to the country or not, if 10% of the population controls something like 80% of the wealth, it results in outrage.

    What I am I doing, ultimately, is no different from iSteve's readers in general, though: I notice. And if I feel that a policy or methodology is hypocritical, such as the subjective criteria acting effectively as quotas, I'll call it out. I don't have any issues persay with quotas with pro-native policies, I simply want it to be declared.

    I'm not a defender of unlimited migration from anywhere. Rate does matter. Policies can and should be made to encourage the will of the countrymen, rather than trying to invite the world; I'm second generation and I can make a fair argument against myself that my success is definitely at ultimate detriment of at least some natives.

    At the same time, its also identifying with the culture of the rule of law and fair play, and I'm essentially competing fairly and legally. In doing so, I'm showing assimilation to very much the Puritan work ethic. A contrary and purely ethnically identified tribal desire for what is essentially a kinship-based culture has its merits, but in its extreme form, leads ultimately to essentially a corrupt and nepotistic culture which has never been particularly American*.It also leads to issues qualifying, for example, what my children are.

    Beyond that, I do not actually see how Sinic civilization is such a threat at least directly - China is not exactly known for expansionism, and I've noted before that some of her most ambitious dynastic military actions were inspired by Muslim officials. The lack of native universalist values leans against active intervention in the matters of others. The tendency toward siege mentality and self-isolation has been noted by many European writers.


    * An exaggeration in some ways; its notable that Jayman has mentioned that there are multiple cultures within the US. Some are much more clannish than others, and as a proposition nation, America has always exemplified contradictions. Such contradictions are straining now, obviously.

    China’s not known for expansionism? How about Tibet and East Turkestan (“Xinjiang”)?

    How about its attempts to maintain control over Mongolia (meaning the current independent country, not the Inner Mongolia region of China)?

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  • @CAL

    I am. Said so just above, in fact. Americans aren’t terribly respectful of people who work hours to achieve good grades.
     
    And Twinkie and Chieh fail to understand what you mean by that. Yes Americans appreciate hard work and focus. They don't appreciate an arms race in academic competition because of how it leads to an unbalanced life. There wasn't a problem when it was only a small number of outliers who were grinding their way through. Once large numbers of people do it though, it distorts the goal of the system.

    Until recently, most Americans viewed education as simply a starting point. One gets a good education to have a solid understanding of the basics and then goes out into the world to get one's real education. People with their heads in books 24/7 are suspect of being ignorant in ways that are often oblivious to the grinder types. The hard work and focus is only applied in one aspect of life often at the expense of other areas. As someone who had to study to get good grades, I appreciate the effort. However, in retrospect I have a better understanding of what people meant by having a balance in life.

    Non Academic Anecdote of Grinding
    I play in chess tournaments and am about average. In the past 10 years there has been a flood of Asian kids playing in the tournaments. Are most there because they want to be? For the most part no. They look zoned out and wanting to get the game over. It's like the piano/violin lessons. Their parents are mapping out their life and chess is one of those things. The problem though is the kids are good because they are taking lessons and being driven to study chess. Why is that a problem? The adults are getting frustrated with playing them. Going to a tournament and having 4 of your 5 opponents be under the age of 10 (this actually happened) is depressing. As an adult you can't devote the amount of time they are putting into it. You also can't relate to them as an adult when they're a kid. Plus they distort the rating system as they are underrated (long explanation why). So, adults are quiting and the ones playing are ones that won't be around as adults because they will be focused on other things and chess is just a checkbox their parents want them to check. If there was just the odd kid now and then, it wouldn't be an issue. But the numbers now have reached a critical mass.

    Very interesting to hear about this phenomenon in chess, an area I know almost nothing about. Thank you.

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  • @Twinkie

    Americans aren’t terribly respectful of people who work hours to achieve good grades.
     
    Translation: I resent people who worked harder than I did and achieved more in life.

    Most Americans are very fair-minded and respect those who come to their achievements through hard work. Your idea that Americans somehow love those for whom things come effortlessly tells me that 1) you have no idea how much work geniuses actually do in their own fields and 2) you have little understanding of most of our fellow Americans.

    A friend of mine from college is a leading physicist. He is a certifiable genius - he smashes atoms for a living, as the saying goes. Although math that eludes you (and me, for that matter) comes very "effortlessly" to him, he works extremely hard at HIS level of mathematics and physics. The idea that the cognitive elite is made up of mediocre grinds and lazy, natural geniuses is stupid in the extreme. It is actually made up of genius grinds.

    As a corollary to sport, I have a friend who was a minor league baseball player. He worked extremely hard and was pretty good, but not good enough for the Major League. He found that there were naturally (genetically, if you will) gifted people who worked just as hard as he did. He realized that there was just no physical way for him to outcompete someone who worked just hard as he did yet had greater natural talent. There just weren't enough hours in a day to make up the deficit.

    As for what our fellow Americans think about hard work, some actor once said, "L.A. is all hype. New York is all talk. Chicago, Chicago is work." Although a superficial statement, to be fair, it does capture something of the cultural differences between the agricultural Midwest and the coastal areas. The taciturn Germans and Scandinavians who settled in the Midwest and their descendants indeed prize laconic, high work ethic. You have to, if you keep farm hours.

    Great quote, but sadly, nowadays it would have to read, “Chicago, Chicago is Mexican.” Which sometimes translates to lots of hard work, and sometimes … not so much.

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  • I have gotten many hundreds of emails–OK, three emails, but I am rounding up–asking me whether there is a super-race. There are different views on this matter, discussion being carried on with the manners of a hockey match. For people who have better things to do than study abnormal psychology, the players are briefly as...
  • Whites are the only humans who have an individualistic streak. The concepts of freedom and personal responsibility, as well as the drive to explore, to go in a different direction, in spite of criticism from the “group”.
    Asians have a strong work ethic, are good at copying others’ inventions, and improving on them, but are still hamstrung by the social requirement to conform to the group culture. The eastern religion mindset permeates Asian culture, and promotes a fatalistic attitude throughout the culture. You will not see an Asian “George Washington” or “Thomas Jefferson”. Documents, such as the Constitution and Declaration of Independence do not exist in any other culture, outside of white culture.
    Blacks have their own set of mores. They thrive under a “strong man” form of government, the tribal chief having total say-so over any decisions that affect the “tribe”. The closer one (is allowed to) sit to the chief, the higher the status. The chief makes all of the decisions, even to the point of life and death.
    The “fly in the ointment” among white culture (and only white culture) is the misplaced sense of “externalized altruism”. “Looking out for the other guy” has resulted in the white race being marginalized, and blamed for all of the world’s ills, despite the white race contributing the most to the betterment of all mankind. As other races gain strength, and political power, whites WILL be wiped out. This “externalized altruism” has to be abandoned, and replaced with internalized altruism, just as every other race has done.
    On a worldwide basis, whites are approximately 6% of the population. This, in itself, should result in recognition that whites, being the TRUE minority on earth, should be the most cherished and protected of minorities.

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    • Replies: @K
    Anarchist,

    I have rarely seen such ignorance in a single comment. You really dont know anything about asians. (I kid you not). If other races did not have the drive to explore how did anatomically modern humans even populate the earth? And concepts of freedom, personal responsibility, altruism exist in them too. And they have constitutions too. You also said asians copy others.

    Look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions.
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  • From the NYT op-ed page: The Truth About New York City’s Elite High Schools By DAMON HEWITT MARCH 22, 2017 This month, a select group of eighth graders in New York City found out that they were being offered a spot at some of the nation’s best high schools, the eight “specialized” city public high...
  • @Jack D
    As I mentioned before, in countries where people don't define themselves by race or religion or ethnic group such as Japan or France college admission is a simple matter of rank ordering the applicant's qualifying test scores. Nobody gets any preference or is under any disadvantage because they are of the "right" or "wrong" religion or ethnicity. No one even thinks that way - they are glad to get the smartest kids that they can get. The Jews in America THOUGHT that they were living in a country like that, where we were all Americans. Harvard was supposed to be a secular institution, welcoming applicants from (and accepting donations from) people of all religions. And that had been the method used at Harvard for many decades. So they were a little shocked when Harvard changed the rules in the middle of the game just to keep them out.

    You look it as white Protestant "owning" America but I disagree - no one ethnic group "owns" America. There have been Jews and Catholics here from day 1 (hell, one of the 13 colonies was set up just for Catholics) and its just as much "ours" as anyone else's. If Harvard had stayed a Puritan theological seminary then sure, they could have kept everyone else out, but that's not how they were selling it.

    About Maryland, it didn’t stay Catholic long, and even in the beginning it wasn’t Catholic like Massachusetts was Puritan. That wouldn’t have been allowed. For a brief shining moment, it was Catholic like Pennsylvania was Quaker. (Tolerating other faiths and giving tax support to none.) Then the Anglican Church was established (tax supported) in Maryland, and as time went on Ant-Catholic laws were proposed and things looked dicey until the American Revolution.

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  • @FKA Max

    Incidentally, I asked my Millenial-era wife, of no Asian culture or ethnicity whatsoever, what she thought of this and she replied with the gamer’s parlance of [they should] git gud!
     
    If I remember correctly, you mentioned in one of your earlier comments that your wife is French-Canadian, right?

    If this indeed is the case, I assume, that she is Roman-Catholic, right?

    If she is not Roman-Catholic, please disregard the following:

    Roman-Catholics generally are not known to be great lovers, defenders, and protectors of historically and traditionally WASP (and other Northern European-Protestant) cultures and countries, so she might not be the ideal person to ask for advice and feedback on this particular topic:

    Canada is rapidly becoming a Catholic nation because of this policy, and northern New England is being transformed by the Catholic overflow from Canada.
    French Catholic Canada is winning what the French Canadians call la revanche des herceaux, the revenge of the cradles.
    [...]
    Well, if you read their papers, where they point out Boston, that that’s what had happened in Boston in Massachusetts. They had simply out-bred the Protestants and they’re — they — in Boston in Massachusetts they have control.
    [...]
    James Michael Curley, a four-time mayor of Boston, used wasteful redistribution to his poor Irish constituents and incendiary rhetoric to encourage richer citizens to emigrate from Boston, thereby shaping the electorate in his favor. As a consequence, Boston stagnated, but Curley kept winning elections.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/article/the-reality-of-red-subversion/#comment-1699584

    Let me emphasize here that the restrictionists of Congress do not claim that the "Nordic" race, or even the Anglo-Saxon race, is the best race in the world. Let us concede, in all fairness that the Czech is a more sturdy laborer … that the Jew is the best businessman in the world, and that the Italian has … a spiritual exaltation and an artistic creative sense which the Nordic rarely attains. Nordics need not be vain about their own qualifications. It well behooves them to be humble.

    What we do claim is that the northern European and particularly Anglo-Saxons made this country. Oh, yes; the others helped. But … [t]hey came to this country because it was already made as an Anglo-Saxon commonwealth. They added to it, they often enriched it, but they did not make it, and they have not yet greatly changed it.

    We are determined that they shall not … It is a good country. It suits us. And what we assert is that we are not going to surrender it to somebody else or allow other people, no matter what their merits, to make it something different. If there is any changing to be done, we will do it ourselves."[5] -Cong. Rec., April 8, 1924, 5922
     
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_N._Vaile

    “James Michael Curley, a four-time mayor of Boston, used wasteful redistribution to his poor Irish constituents and incendiary rhetoric to encourage richer citizens to emigrate from Boston, thereby shaping the electorate in his favor. As a consequence, Boston stagnated, but Curley kept winning elections.”

    Just think of how much more fabulous Route 128, MIT, Harvard, Back Bay, Beacon Hill, and the North Shore would be if it weren’t for the Irish.

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  • @Jack D
    As I mentioned before, in countries where people don't define themselves by race or religion or ethnic group such as Japan or France college admission is a simple matter of rank ordering the applicant's qualifying test scores. Nobody gets any preference or is under any disadvantage because they are of the "right" or "wrong" religion or ethnicity. No one even thinks that way - they are glad to get the smartest kids that they can get. The Jews in America THOUGHT that they were living in a country like that, where we were all Americans. Harvard was supposed to be a secular institution, welcoming applicants from (and accepting donations from) people of all religions. And that had been the method used at Harvard for many decades. So they were a little shocked when Harvard changed the rules in the middle of the game just to keep them out.

    You look it as white Protestant "owning" America but I disagree - no one ethnic group "owns" America. There have been Jews and Catholics here from day 1 (hell, one of the 13 colonies was set up just for Catholics) and its just as much "ours" as anyone else's. If Harvard had stayed a Puritan theological seminary then sure, they could have kept everyone else out, but that's not how they were selling it.

    There have been Jews and Catholics here from day 1 (hell, one of the 13 colonies was set up just for Catholics) and its just as much “ours” as anyone else’s. If Harvard had stayed a Puritan theological seminary then sure, they could have kept everyone else out, but that’s not how they were selling it.

    There is a good point lurking in there amongst all the question-begging. Freedom of religion is a bad idea. Among other things, it opens one up to the sort of silliness on display above. The greater problem, though, is that freedom of religion is just apostasy in unconvincing drag. There will be a state religion, and if you decide your religion won’t be it, then some other religion will be it.

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  • @Daniel Chieh

    Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.
     
    This is not the issue. The issue is that rules are given, such as "have so many extracurricular programs", "get this test score" and the like. It annoys us when the rules are being applied inconsistently, specifically to exclude Asians. It calls foul to the entire notion that hard work and high metrics are to be recognized, in favor of what appears to be pure favoritism. Its basically playing a game by the rules, only to have the rules change.

    In a culture where hard work is particularly prized, and in even the Western culture where hard work is supposedly recognized as the path to success, it obviously rankles.

    So, if we made a rule “No more than 10% Asian at Harvard,” you’d be OK with that?

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    As I mentioned before, I'll be okay with anything so as long as it was transparently declared.
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  • @JustAnotherNerdette
    If these kids can get in without the usual test prep and pushing, think of what they would be capable of once bought up to speed. Does the administration recognize this problem and is anything done to support the students while they catch up?

    Are their old schools expected to explain why they weren't placed into gifted programs much earlier?

    There is a writing center and tutoring available. Also, a freshmen writing seminar was created to help identify and offer help to those who need it. It has done a lot to improve the writing of the bottom 25% (particularly useful to kids with non-English speaking parents). Ultimately, though, the kids have to avail themselves of these opportunities, and it is no small task to bring them up to speed. Stuyvesant is bigger than it wanted to be. More than 10 years ago the DOE forced us to increase student enrollment by over 20%. Teachers, with 5 classes of 34 kids each, are somewhat limited in what we can do to provide extra help. It’s very different from a private school where a teacher has 4 to 5 classes of 12 students – not as much one-on-one work is possible. That being said, almost every teacher I know is willing to give extra help to a kid who needs it. But not many of the kids who are struggling seem willing to stay after school to go to the writing center or work with a teacher or tutor. They are often the first out the door at 3:35 (if not earlier). You will find one or two of these kids in every class of 34.

    Why aren’t the middle schools held accountable? I don’t know. A prime example of the problem is a middle school that is a magnet school for chess. It attracts a lot of bright kids who love chess – and they get very good at it – but those who manage to get into Stuyvesant are totally unprepared for the rigors of the program and they get steamrolled.

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  • @TMerton
    I teach at Stuyvesant. It is a fantastic intellectual environment. It is also an academic pressure cooker. Most of the kids come from special schools or ordinary middle schools with excellent programs for gifted kids. Some merely have Chinese "Tiger Mothers" who provide ample psychological preparation for the meat grinder that is Stuyvesant. A small number of kids with extraordinary talent manage to get in from regular NYC middle schools. Stuyvesant often turns out to be a devastating experience for these kids. They don't have the basic skills to meet the standards. They don't have the study skills to handle the work load. At first, they work harder than they ever have, but they remain substantially below average. Then they become withdrawn and prone to depression and drug abuse.

    I fully support efforts to create better opportunities for kids in average New York City schools. But those efforts must be directed at kids when they are younger. They must be given the preparation they need to be able to get into, and handle, schools like Stuyvesant. It is not compassionate to throw a 14 year old kid who can't swim into a deep tank full of sharks - it is cruel.

    If these kids can get in without the usual test prep and pushing, think of what they would be capable of once bought up to speed. Does the administration recognize this problem and is anything done to support the students while they catch up?

    Are their old schools expected to explain why they weren’t placed into gifted programs much earlier?

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    • Replies: @TMerton
    There is a writing center and tutoring available. Also, a freshmen writing seminar was created to help identify and offer help to those who need it. It has done a lot to improve the writing of the bottom 25% (particularly useful to kids with non-English speaking parents). Ultimately, though, the kids have to avail themselves of these opportunities, and it is no small task to bring them up to speed. Stuyvesant is bigger than it wanted to be. More than 10 years ago the DOE forced us to increase student enrollment by over 20%. Teachers, with 5 classes of 34 kids each, are somewhat limited in what we can do to provide extra help. It's very different from a private school where a teacher has 4 to 5 classes of 12 students - not as much one-on-one work is possible. That being said, almost every teacher I know is willing to give extra help to a kid who needs it. But not many of the kids who are struggling seem willing to stay after school to go to the writing center or work with a teacher or tutor. They are often the first out the door at 3:35 (if not earlier). You will find one or two of these kids in every class of 34.

    Why aren't the middle schools held accountable? I don't know. A prime example of the problem is a middle school that is a magnet school for chess. It attracts a lot of bright kids who love chess - and they get very good at it - but those who manage to get into Stuyvesant are totally unprepared for the rigors of the program and they get steamrolled.
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  • @Rdm
    I don't know we're playing tic-tac-toe.

    Talking about a facade, extrapolating from the facade and interpreting what it could be inside is the fundamental foundation of your comment. Your opinion is, once Asian student body reaches a certain population in an institution, Whites stop going there. This might be true. But your consequential interpretation is, those colleges tend to deteriorate afterwards. I don't see that happening. Strike one.

    I said 70% Asian in CA. I stand corrected. I intentionally bloated the number because the general sentiment here in this article and comments is you all need some boogeyman. So I provided one. Strike two and strike three don't count.

    CA has been traditionally swarmed with Asian populations for CENTURIES. Leland Stanford is the guy who employed hundreds of cheap Chinese labors to work for his farms. If the first ever Chinese guy graduated from Yale was back in 1854, I'd assume you'll be hardly surprised lots of Asians graduating in California in 90s.

    Talking about decades long reputation of those CA universities and lack of Asians in California doesn't make any sense. A quick look at universities ranking in the states tell me something about the so-called decades long reputation of CA universities. Up until 1996, only UC Berkeley ranked in Top 20. Private universities took up the top spots. Jumping 4 years ahead, looking at 2000, UCLA, UCSD, UCD, UCSB, popped into Top 50. What does that tell you? Proposition 209? Your argument that CA universities have been Top schools flies out of the window. Strike two.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20070906213938/http://chronicle.com/stats/usnews/index.php?category=Universities&orgs=&sort=2000

    I agree with you about the fact that if a certain group reaches a critical mass, it becomes less likely for others to enroll at the same college, be it Blacks or Whites or Jews or Asians. But I don't agree with your interpretation or general sentiment here that once Whites leaves, the institutions tend to deteriorate. That's why I said the question should be "Who drives out the Whites?" not the self-righteous "Once Whites leave,...."

    By the way, if we need to consider a critical mass for some vague cut-off line to make more diverse, you should boycott NBA, NFL first. We need more Hispanics, Asians, Whites in those leagues. But I don't see those Asians complaining. I don't see Blacks accommodating those Asian rookies in the league either.

    So tic for tac.

    Let’s itemize where we agree and disagree:

    #1 – If Asians become a larger and larger percentage of some college or university, non-Asians will be less likely to apply or attend such schools.This was my original position, and you seem to agree with me on this point, throughout.

    #2 – California has not been “swarmed” with Asians for “centuries.” That’s just an irresponsible exaggeration. Moreover, the Asians that Leland Stanford employed to build his railroads also have nothing to do with higher education.

    Please consult the following article and the table showing the Chinese population (and it would be mainly Chinese as Asian) in California: It reached a high of 100 K in 1890 and did not return to those levels until 1950. (there were a grand total of 5 K Chinese in CA in 1850.) Today of course it is about 3.3 MM, up a million in just ten years, and doubled in just 20 years. (In 1980, by contrast, the Chinese population was 800 K.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Americans

    #3 – I do not know the percentage of Asians (Chinese) with college degrees historically, but if it tracks to history, that is, no more than 100 K Chinese for the first half of the 20th Century, and with a population explosion in the last 20-30 years, I would guess that the Chinese or Asian contribution to the reputation of Cal Berkeley or Stanford, which have traditionally been considered the “best” West Coast schools has been rather low. If you want to argue that now “many” California schools are in the “top 50″ due to their Asian contributions, you can do so, but in the process you are outing yourself as an Asian nationalist, which was one of the problems I was getting at.

    BTW, I just checked the rankings and excepting Stanford (#2) and Berkeley (#20) no CA schools are in the top 20. Berkeley seems to have slipped. I do not know why.

    https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

    #4 – At no time did I imply either that Asian/Chinese/Jewish students should be restricted at any school, or that allowing any school to be dominated by any one racial or ethnic group would lead to declining quality. What I DID say is that if a school becomes dominated by a single ethnic or racial group, people who are not members of that ethnic or racial group will tend not to go there. And you agreed with me on that.

    #5 – At the same time, the simple fact of the matter is that Americans of European descent are the vast majority in this country, and they also control a vast amount of wealth, and if the various colleges and universities stopped being attractive places to send their children then they would stop associating those colleges and universities with prestige, and would stop giving money to such institutions. On the contrary, they would start looking for schools that “looked more like them.” You can say that is wrong, but I am talking about what people actually do. And it is precisely for these reasons that colleges and universities sneak in measures that allow them to manipulate the demographics of their student body (so that no one group except whites dominates; this includes Jews, because Jews have heavily assimilated).

    And, this gets to my main point, this is why ultimately Harvard restricted its Jewish admissions in the 1920s, and the UC system has (since 2009) found ways to restrict its Asian admissions. Again, I don’t have anything against Asians or Jews, but they are only 2% to 3% of the population; how can you have a state university system that caters to only 2% or 3% of the population? Or a university that claims “national status” (e.g., Harvard) that comprises only 2% or 3% distinct groups of the population? What will happen, while there may be no decline in “quality” (however that is defined) is that such institutions will alienate the vast majority of the population that is not a member of a small minority group.

    It may be that Asians or Jews or whoever are “smarter” than most whitebread Americans, and therefore should be over-represented in our universities and anywhere else value is determined by intellect. But no one wants to see a system in this country where the great mass of white bread undifferentiated Americans are dominated by a small group of non-white bread undifferentiated Americans. That leads to my final point, which is that assimilation is absolutely essential if America is to succeed and not turn into a caste system or a system of hereditary or inheritance power. Unfortunately, when you seem to be puffing yourself up with pride over the fact that the apparent increase in the rankings of the California university system is due to Asians you are making a statement which is directly contrary to the spirit of assimilation on which this nation was based. Put another way, I don’t care where anyone who comes to this country if from. But if you are going to be a hyphenated American, I really don’t want you here, because those kinds of attitudes will ultimately destroy this country.

    BTW, the expression you are looking for is “tit for tat.” As for professional sports, you make a good point, but it has no personal relevance.

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  • We should never encourage a black white alliance, against gifted students (many being Asian), because they did not get in the school of their choice. First we should not inculcate the same cry baby liberal attitude that has been inculcated into the afro american community (whaaaah, I Want It My Way, even if I didn’t earn it). We should be training our students to overcome obstacles, not complain about them.

    Second the student who works harder (who may even be a diligent moron), or is gifted/smarter, or highly educated, should be placed in the school that maximizes these efforts & potentials, not discouraging them. A society benefits by this, and does not benefit by squandering these positions on students who cannot adequately utilize them.

    If we do force unqualified students into the best educational institutions, such pandering will eventually erode the quality of such education. And it will not benefit the unqualified student themselves because he will be full of ego invested praise instead of actual skills. Without real skills he would be of no adequate use to society at large (would you like to drive over a bridge built by a falsely educated engineer, or receive surgery from a falsely educated MD?)

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    • Agree: Hibernian
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  • @FKA Max

    Honestly, I don’t know what you’re trying to prove. You’re literally doing what you shouldn’t be doing with HBD(or science in general) – that is, trying to work from a premise that you already want to believe in, and then looking evidence to support it, including quoting the incredibly clickbaity Psychology Today(which also gives us gems like this to masturbate more). That is not the path of the angels; truth is to be followed even if it doesn’t support your premises.
     
    I am not as much trying to prove anything, as I am simply sharing my ``noticing'' and research. I might be wrong, I might not be.

    My main issue is MAOA. Different testosterone levels among the races is just a current interest of mine, because I just discovered so much new and fascinating research, which contradicts Rushton, Lynn et al.

    I never wanted to believe that Asians (and Jews) are more anti-social than Whites, etc.:

    Studies have found differences in the frequency distribution of variants of the MAOA gene between ethnic groups:[32][33] of the participants, 59% of Black men, 54% of Chinese men, 56% of Maori men, and 34% of Caucasian men carried the 3R allele, while 5.5% of Black men, 0.1% of Caucasian men, and 0.00067% of Asian men carried the 2R allele.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1725649

    Jews and the Chinese seem to be equally ambitious and competitive, some might even call it cunning. Interestingly, the two groups/races seem to have comparable IQs and seem to be carrying the low-activity 3-repeat MAOA allele at very similar rates:

    Jews (2R 1.3%; 3R 62%) carry low-activity MAOA at much higher rates than Whites (2R 0.2%; 3R 36%): http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.com/2013/01/monoamine-oxidase-bibliography.html Low-activity MAOA is associated with higher levels of aggressiveness and risk-taking
     
    - http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1730862

    I truly believed in the the beginning that Jews were intellectually superior to Whites, i.e., high Ivy League attendance rates, Nobel Prizes, wealthy, etc.

    And I always believed the stereotype of the `` shy, nerdy and smart'' Asian compared to the more dull and athletic White.

    But my in-real-life interactions and experiences with Jews and Asians (I went to boarding school, where I had dorm neighbors, who were both Chinese and Jewish) have been somewhat contrary to the positive/idealized stereotypes I wanted to believe about both groups; both groups always seemed very/the most pushy and competitive, which you kind of confirm again in this thread, with the Asians also being extremely ``macho'' (these Asians were mostly on Western diets, no green tea, etc.; see my other comment for the potentially significant role high green tea consumption plays in blocking DHT/testosterone). The Jews were not very athletic, but still very aggressive intellectually/verbally, if that makes any sense. Other anecdotal evidence like East Asia being associated with many ``martial arts,'' kind of made sense to me after finding out about the high prevalence of the low-activity MAOA allele in that population, contrary to what people like Steven Pinker claim that the ``warrior gene'' theory is bogus because East Asia does not have a warrior tradition/culture, etc.

    One of the ways lack [of] or low impulse control expresses itself in Asians is gambling, despite strong social disapproval of the practice and state bans on it
    [...]
    Research shows Asians in the U.S. have a disproportionate number of pathological gamblers (i.e. addicted) as compared to the general American population.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1726450

    The study [in Japan] found that over 5.36 million people are addicted to gambling (4.3 million men, and just under 1 million women)—that’s almost five percent of the population (and almost nine percent of all men).
     
    - http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1726555

    I have a theory, that high(er)-IQ Asians developed all sorts of meditation and mind and body-calming techniques (acupressure, etc.), formulas (herbal tinctures, etc.) and philosophies ( Zen, etc.) to cope with the high percentage/number of low-activity MAOA carriers and the resulting low levels of impulse control in their populations and societies.
    [...]
    I believe too, that the high prevalence of low-activity MAOA among Jews is the reason why Buddhism, meditation, etc. is so popular with Jews, i.e., a healthy and productive way for high(er)-IQ individuals to deal/cope with their low-activity MAOA
     
    - http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1726637

    Again, this is just my own personal ``noticing'' and research, and I could very well be very wrong.

    Minor correction: One “the” too many, just: I truly believed in *the* beginning…

    Here is the direct quote from Steven Pinker:

    [T]he low-activity version of the gene is even more common in Chinese men ([55] percent of whom carry it), and the Chinese are neither descended from warriors in their recent history nor particularly prone to social pathology in modern societies.

    http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.com/2011/10/kill-popular-science.html

    He (deliberately?) ignores or does not seem to be aware of the high number of pathological gamblers among Asians/Chinese, that I pointed to above. I believe Sheldon Adelson (a modern-day David Sassoon?) makes most of his money in Macau, nowadays.

    Coincidentally, a commenter also named “max” (it wasn’t me) notes the following:

    max said…

    Perhaps a little research into history would debunk your assessment here? The Chinese have throughout their history been [g]overn[ed] under a feudal, agrarian, and hierarchical system and China itself was always been rife with wars, in fact far more frequently than have Colonial Sea Powers and in larger scope all the way up till WW1. [...]

    This Asian “gaming/warring spirit” has moved on to new casinos/battlefields as Mr. Sailer pointed out:

    SAT Scandal: The Global Tong War Over Test Scores

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/sat-scandal/

    …focus on reforming testing so it isn’t gamed by new forces that a dynamic but naive mid-Century WASP like James Bryant Conant couldn’t have anticipated.
    [...]
    But globalization should have wiped out that confidence. This is global tong war over test scores.

    But Americans have yet to figure out what’s going on. That would be racist.

    Law-enforcement officials in this country say that highly organized rings of college-admission-exams imposters—once considered a unique artifact of the high-stakes, test-driven Chinese education system—have arrived on U.S. shores.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/sat-scandal/#comment-1544526

    Addressing Pathlogical Gambling among Asian Clients

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    • Replies: @FKA Max
    Some more interesting studies on low-activity MAOA and pathological gambling, risk-taking in general, and aggression:

    Pathological gambling and DNA polymorphic markers at MAO-A and MAO-B genes.

    Allele variants at the MAOA, but not the MAOB gene may be a genetic liability factor in PG, at least in severe male gamblers.
     

    - Ibanez et al. (2000) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10673777

    Concurrent positive association between pathological gambling and functional DNA polymorphisms at the MAO-A and the 5-HT transporter genes


    Allelic frequency of the 3-copy allele was significantly higher in gamblers (44.9%) than in controls (32.6%) (P = 0.043) (Table 1). Interestingly, women showed exactly the same genotypic distribution whereas the differences for the 3-copy allele frequency were more significant between males than between total populations (55.3% among gamblers vs 37.2% among controls, P = 0.011). This association was stronger for the more severe male subpopulation (P = 0.002). Finally, the relative risk of the 3-copy allele was 1.73 for the male gamblers (95% CI, 1.06-2.83, P < 0.05), and, among them, 2.12 for the more severe patients (95% CI, 1.31-3.44, P < 0.0001).
     
    - Perez de Castro et al. (2002) http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v7/n9/full/4001148a.html


    MAOA-L carriers are better at making optimal financial decisions under risk

    Consistent with previous literature, we found that carriers of the MAOA-L polymorphism were more likely to take financial risks. Our computational choice model, rooted in established decision theory, showed that MAOA-L carriers exhibited such behaviour because they are able to make better financial decisions under risk, and not because they are more impulsive.
    [...]
    The computational approach used in the paper allowed us to conclude that MAOA-L carriers are more likely to take a financial risk than their MAOA-H counterparts, but only when it is advantageous to do so given their preferences over risk. For disadvantageous gambles, there was no difference between the two groups. This suggests that MAOA-L carriers perform better in the case of risky financial decision-making because they exhibit an improved ability to select the optimal response when it is advantageous
     

    - Frydman et al. (2010) http://www.rnl.caltech.edu/publications/pdf/frydman2011.pdf

    This is the most interesting part, and could explain why Asians (and Jews in the past) get much more upset and ``pro-testy'' than Caucasians when they are being discriminated against by ``holistic admission'' policies of elite universities:


    Now, studies have triggered aggression in MAOA-3R men with much more immediate experimental adversities in the form of game unfairness.
    [...]
    For instance, low IQ does not increase violent tendencies in men with MAOA-4R, but it does in men with MAOA-3R.
     
    - http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.com/2012/12/scientists-rediscover-violence-gene.html

    MAOA genotype, social exclusion and aggression: an experimental test of a gene–environment interaction Gallardo-Pujol (2012) http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1601-183X.2012.00868.x/abstract

    Monoamine oxidase A gene (MAOA) predicts behavioral aggression following provocation McDermott (2008) http://www.pnas.org/content/106/7/2118.full.pdf


    As a consequence, Asians appear under-represented relative to Jews by a factor of seven, while non-Jewish whites are by far the most under-represented group of all, despite any benefits they might receive from athletic, legacy, or geographical distribution factors. The rest of the Ivy League tends to follow a similar pattern, with the overall Jewish ratio being 381 percent, the Asian figure at 62 percent, and the ratio for non-Jewish whites a low 35 percent, all relative to their number of high-ability college-age students.
    [...]
    But it seems rather odd that all of these other gains would have come at the expense of whites of Christian[/Protestant] background, and none at the expense of Jews.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/forum/white-students-unfair-advantage-in-admissions/#comment-1748458

    The Lightning Rod: Race and Admissions at Harvard

    http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2017/3/22/race-and-admissions-at-harvard/


    Dershowitz, who mentioned Lowell’s policies in a recent book, says this “long, terrible history of discrimination” needs to be acknowledged by Harvard today.

    “[Lowell] was a bigot of the worst order and there should be no house named after him,” he says. “Talk about changing names, if you’re going to change names, the first one to go should be Lowell.”
     

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  • @res
    Thanks! The funny thing is I recently read a book about Hunter (I think it was "Hunter College Campus Schools for the Gifted: The Challenge of Equity and Excellence"), but failed to make the connection in this thread until now.

    I dug out the book and it was https://www.amazon.com/Genius-Revisited-Children-Creativity-Research/dp/1567500056 which focused on the Hunter College Elementary School study (i.e. not the HS). This book sounded promising and positioned itself as an update of the Terman study, but I found it disappointing. It was much too anecdotal and SJW-tilted for my taste (I had been hoping for something more like the SMPY or the Terman study itself).

    HCES “was created in 1941 to serve children with IQ scores at least two standard deviations above the mean.” The sample had a mean IQ of 157 (they say ~3.5SD, so perhaps using an SD of 16?) with a range of 122 to 196. Notice that 122 is less than 2 SD. There is an intriguing comment about “exceptions” and a comment that no documentation exists for the reasons (Hmmm). I find the mean IQ surprisingly high given the stated threshold (see comments elsewhere about the population density of IQ implied by the normal curve, even with fat tails, implying the average will tend to be relatively near the threshold) so I’m assuming the admissions criteria were more demanding than a simple threshold (this was 1948-1960 with 210/600 students participating, not sure how the admissions process then compares to today).

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  • @SPMoore8
    It's not a "facade", so that's strike one. It's an honest attempt to look at a potential problem.

    Also, the university system in CA does in fact still promote "diversity": Asian pops in the UC system topped out at about 50% eight years ago and they've been rigging the system since. Strike two.

    Moreover, the Asian population at those schools is not 70%; the last from Berkeley is about 33%. Strike three.

    Your argument that the top schools in CA will always be the top schools thanks to their Asian students ignores the fact that they were top schools for decades without hardly any Asian representation. Meanwhile, anyone looking for a faculty appointment will certainly take a job on the West Coast (or East Coast) for almost any appointment in the rest of the US -- not to scant Chicago or Madison, WI, but the weather in the Midwest is hard to take.

    What you are basically doing is agreeing with me: If Asians achieve critical mass, then whites will stop going, and will even stop applying, to these institutions.

    I don’t know we’re playing tic-tac-toe.

    Talking about a facade, extrapolating from the facade and interpreting what it could be inside is the fundamental foundation of your comment. Your opinion is, once Asian student body reaches a certain population in an institution, Whites stop going there. This might be true. But your consequential interpretation is, those colleges tend to deteriorate afterwards. I don’t see that happening. Strike one.

    I said 70% Asian in CA. I stand corrected. I intentionally bloated the number because the general sentiment here in this article and comments is you all need some boogeyman. So I provided one. Strike two and strike three don’t count.

    CA has been traditionally swarmed with Asian populations for CENTURIES. Leland Stanford is the guy who employed hundreds of cheap Chinese labors to work for his farms. If the first ever Chinese guy graduated from Yale was back in 1854, I’d assume you’ll be hardly surprised lots of Asians graduating in California in 90s.

    Talking about decades long reputation of those CA universities and lack of Asians in California doesn’t make any sense. A quick look at universities ranking in the states tell me something about the so-called decades long reputation of CA universities. Up until 1996, only UC Berkeley ranked in Top 20. Private universities took up the top spots. Jumping 4 years ahead, looking at 2000, UCLA, UCSD, UCD, UCSB, popped into Top 50. What does that tell you? Proposition 209? Your argument that CA universities have been Top schools flies out of the window. Strike two.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20070906213938/http://chronicle.com/stats/usnews/index.php?category=Universities&orgs=&sort=2000

    I agree with you about the fact that if a certain group reaches a critical mass, it becomes less likely for others to enroll at the same college, be it Blacks or Whites or Jews or Asians. But I don’t agree with your interpretation or general sentiment here that once Whites leaves, the institutions tend to deteriorate. That’s why I said the question should be “Who drives out the Whites?” not the self-righteous “Once Whites leave,….”

    By the way, if we need to consider a critical mass for some vague cut-off line to make more diverse, you should boycott NBA, NFL first. We need more Hispanics, Asians, Whites in those leagues. But I don’t see those Asians complaining. I don’t see Blacks accommodating those Asian rookies in the league either.

    So tic for tac.

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    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    Let's itemize where we agree and disagree:

    #1 - If Asians become a larger and larger percentage of some college or university, non-Asians will be less likely to apply or attend such schools.This was my original position, and you seem to agree with me on this point, throughout.

    #2 - California has not been "swarmed" with Asians for "centuries." That's just an irresponsible exaggeration. Moreover, the Asians that Leland Stanford employed to build his railroads also have nothing to do with higher education.

    Please consult the following article and the table showing the Chinese population (and it would be mainly Chinese as Asian) in California: It reached a high of 100 K in 1890 and did not return to those levels until 1950. (there were a grand total of 5 K Chinese in CA in 1850.) Today of course it is about 3.3 MM, up a million in just ten years, and doubled in just 20 years. (In 1980, by contrast, the Chinese population was 800 K.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Americans

    #3 - I do not know the percentage of Asians (Chinese) with college degrees historically, but if it tracks to history, that is, no more than 100 K Chinese for the first half of the 20th Century, and with a population explosion in the last 20-30 years, I would guess that the Chinese or Asian contribution to the reputation of Cal Berkeley or Stanford, which have traditionally been considered the "best" West Coast schools has been rather low. If you want to argue that now "many" California schools are in the "top 50" due to their Asian contributions, you can do so, but in the process you are outing yourself as an Asian nationalist, which was one of the problems I was getting at.

    BTW, I just checked the rankings and excepting Stanford (#2) and Berkeley (#20) no CA schools are in the top 20. Berkeley seems to have slipped. I do not know why.

    https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

    #4 - At no time did I imply either that Asian/Chinese/Jewish students should be restricted at any school, or that allowing any school to be dominated by any one racial or ethnic group would lead to declining quality. What I DID say is that if a school becomes dominated by a single ethnic or racial group, people who are not members of that ethnic or racial group will tend not to go there. And you agreed with me on that.

    #5 - At the same time, the simple fact of the matter is that Americans of European descent are the vast majority in this country, and they also control a vast amount of wealth, and if the various colleges and universities stopped being attractive places to send their children then they would stop associating those colleges and universities with prestige, and would stop giving money to such institutions. On the contrary, they would start looking for schools that "looked more like them." You can say that is wrong, but I am talking about what people actually do. And it is precisely for these reasons that colleges and universities sneak in measures that allow them to manipulate the demographics of their student body (so that no one group except whites dominates; this includes Jews, because Jews have heavily assimilated).

    And, this gets to my main point, this is why ultimately Harvard restricted its Jewish admissions in the 1920s, and the UC system has (since 2009) found ways to restrict its Asian admissions. Again, I don't have anything against Asians or Jews, but they are only 2% to 3% of the population; how can you have a state university system that caters to only 2% or 3% of the population? Or a university that claims "national status" (e.g., Harvard) that comprises only 2% or 3% distinct groups of the population? What will happen, while there may be no decline in "quality" (however that is defined) is that such institutions will alienate the vast majority of the population that is not a member of a small minority group.

    It may be that Asians or Jews or whoever are "smarter" than most whitebread Americans, and therefore should be over-represented in our universities and anywhere else value is determined by intellect. But no one wants to see a system in this country where the great mass of white bread undifferentiated Americans are dominated by a small group of non-white bread undifferentiated Americans. That leads to my final point, which is that assimilation is absolutely essential if America is to succeed and not turn into a caste system or a system of hereditary or inheritance power. Unfortunately, when you seem to be puffing yourself up with pride over the fact that the apparent increase in the rankings of the California university system is due to Asians you are making a statement which is directly contrary to the spirit of assimilation on which this nation was based. Put another way, I don't care where anyone who comes to this country if from. But if you are going to be a hyphenated American, I really don't want you here, because those kinds of attitudes will ultimately destroy this country.

    BTW, the expression you are looking for is "tit for tat." As for professional sports, you make a good point, but it has no personal relevance.
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  • @Triumph104

    I’m especially interested in the minority aspect there.
     
    Hunter is a school for the highly gifted and not part of the public school system. All applicants are tested. Kindergarten applicants take the Stanford-Binet V in Round 1. Those that do well in Round 1 are observed in a group session. Applicants to the high school (grades 7-12) who scored high on their 5th grade standardized exam in both English and math are invited to take a Hunter entrance exam. The high school is 39% white, 2% black, 2% Hispanic, 45% Asian. (The kids from the elementary school are automatically admitted to the high school.)

    Edward R Murrow is a communications school with an arts magnet and bilingual programs for native Mandarin or Spanish speakers. Over 2/3 of the students are in communications which is also an educational option (ed opt) program. Ed opt means that students of all intellectual abilities have to be selected. The department of education selects half the students and the school can select the other half. Priority is given to kids in the school's zone. The bilingual kids have to speak Mandarin or Spanish at home. The arts kids are selected by audition and grades (min. 80 except for math-min 75).

    Murrow is 28% white, 23% black, 20% Hispanic, 27% Asian. Although the school has an enrollment of about 4000, there are no sports of great interest to blacks like basketball or track and field. The school didn't participate in sports until 2012. Sports are badminton, table tennis, golf, wrestling, bowling, cross country and volleyball.

    The Murrow information is from the 2017 High School Directory:
    http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/00F2DEB3-4F50-4747-A14E-E53295E078DC/0/2017NYCHSDirectoryCitywideENGLISH.pdf

    Thanks! The funny thing is I recently read a book about Hunter (I think it was “Hunter College Campus Schools for the Gifted: The Challenge of Equity and Excellence”), but failed to make the connection in this thread until now.

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    • Replies: @res
    I dug out the book and it was https://www.amazon.com/Genius-Revisited-Children-Creativity-Research/dp/1567500056 which focused on the Hunter College Elementary School study (i.e. not the HS). This book sounded promising and positioned itself as an update of the Terman study, but I found it disappointing. It was much too anecdotal and SJW-tilted for my taste (I had been hoping for something more like the SMPY or the Terman study itself).

    HCES "was created in 1941 to serve children with IQ scores at least two standard deviations above the mean." The sample had a mean IQ of 157 (they say ~3.5SD, so perhaps using an SD of 16?) with a range of 122 to 196. Notice that 122 is less than 2 SD. There is an intriguing comment about "exceptions" and a comment that no documentation exists for the reasons (Hmmm). I find the mean IQ surprisingly high given the stated threshold (see comments elsewhere about the population density of IQ implied by the normal curve, even with fat tails, implying the average will tend to be relatively near the threshold) so I'm assuming the admissions criteria were more demanding than a simple threshold (this was 1948-1960 with 210/600 students participating, not sure how the admissions process then compares to today).
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  • @Triumph104

    I’m especially interested in the minority aspect there.
     
    Hunter is a school for the highly gifted and not part of the public school system. All applicants are tested. Kindergarten applicants take the Stanford-Binet V in Round 1. Those that do well in Round 1 are observed in a group session. Applicants to the high school (grades 7-12) who scored high on their 5th grade standardized exam in both English and math are invited to take a Hunter entrance exam. The high school is 39% white, 2% black, 2% Hispanic, 45% Asian. (The kids from the elementary school are automatically admitted to the high school.)

    Edward R Murrow is a communications school with an arts magnet and bilingual programs for native Mandarin or Spanish speakers. Over 2/3 of the students are in communications which is also an educational option (ed opt) program. Ed opt means that students of all intellectual abilities have to be selected. The department of education selects half the students and the school can select the other half. Priority is given to kids in the school's zone. The bilingual kids have to speak Mandarin or Spanish at home. The arts kids are selected by audition and grades (min. 80 except for math-min 75).

    Murrow is 28% white, 23% black, 20% Hispanic, 27% Asian. Although the school has an enrollment of about 4000, there are no sports of great interest to blacks like basketball or track and field. The school didn't participate in sports until 2012. Sports are badminton, table tennis, golf, wrestling, bowling, cross country and volleyball.

    The Murrow information is from the 2017 High School Directory:
    http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/00F2DEB3-4F50-4747-A14E-E53295E078DC/0/2017NYCHSDirectoryCitywideENGLISH.pdf

    Most of the Murrow info is from the high school directory. I used other sources too.

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  • @res

    The problem with your perspective is it is not based on how the actual NYC public High School system works.
     
    I welcome other perspectives. Thanks for supplying one. It would be even better if it addressed my quantitative points. For example, was the test the same in the 1970s as in 2005/6 (e.g. do you know what percentile a perfect score was then)? Given that the test is changing now I don't think that is a safe assumption.

    Is it really that much to ask for a perfect grade on a what is a less than high school level test, without any tricky IQ test type questions. The SHSAT math is straight forward questions that you are expected to get right. Which is to say it is not at the level people imagine it to be. The hard part is plowing through a few hours of a stultifying test.
     
    If that is true of the 2006 test for which I supplied score frequency distributions then please explain how the math section there only has about 0.1% perfect scores. If that test is as you say IMHO there should be (many) more perfect scores.

    Your Hunter and Murrow points are excellent, but fairly orthogonal to my points about test scores. Any comments about who is accepted there for those of not in NYC? I'm especially interested in the minority aspect there. Are there enough celebrity/elite/etc. minorities to keep the pressure off them or do they have to make an effort to admit other groups (e.g. minorities who might qualify for Stuyvesant)?

    From looking at the wikis (thanks), Hunter and Murrow look very different. Murrow as a theater magnet school and Hunter as academically (and presumably socially) elite. One interesting thing is that Hunter claims the highest average ACT score of any HS in the US, but the one listed on Stuyvesant's wiki is higher (33 vs. 32.6).

    I’m especially interested in the minority aspect there.

    Hunter is a school for the highly gifted and not part of the public school system. All applicants are tested. Kindergarten applicants take the Stanford-Binet V in Round 1. Those that do well in Round 1 are observed in a group session. Applicants to the high school (grades 7-12) who scored high on their 5th grade standardized exam in both English and math are invited to take a Hunter entrance exam. The high school is 39% white, 2% black, 2% Hispanic, 45% Asian. (The kids from the elementary school are automatically admitted to the high school.)

    Edward R Murrow is a communications school with an arts magnet and bilingual programs for native Mandarin or Spanish speakers. Over 2/3 of the students are in communications which is also an educational option (ed opt) program. Ed opt means that students of all intellectual abilities have to be selected. The department of education selects half the students and the school can select the other half. Priority is given to kids in the school’s zone. The bilingual kids have to speak Mandarin or Spanish at home. The arts kids are selected by audition and grades (min. 80 except for math-min 75).

    Murrow is 28% white, 23% black, 20% Hispanic, 27% Asian. Although the school has an enrollment of about 4000, there are no sports of great interest to blacks like basketball or track and field. The school didn’t participate in sports until 2012. Sports are badminton, table tennis, golf, wrestling, bowling, cross country and volleyball.

    The Murrow information is from the 2017 High School Directory:

    http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/00F2DEB3-4F50-4747-A14E-E53295E078DC/0/2017NYCHSDirectoryCitywideENGLISH.pdf

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    • Replies: @Triumph104
    Most of the Murrow info is from the high school directory. I used other sources too.
    , @res
    Thanks! The funny thing is I recently read a book about Hunter (I think it was "Hunter College Campus Schools for the Gifted: The Challenge of Equity and Excellence"), but failed to make the connection in this thread until now.
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  • @rob
    From the article:
    And while some of the specialized schools do have a high percentage of Asian-American students, many low-income students from lesser-represented ethnic communities are also left out.

    I think what he means is that while there are tons of Asians, there are many Asian ethnicities (Hmong, Thai, Laotian, various Pacific Islanders) that are under-represented.

    I think what he means is that while there are tons of Asians, there are many Asian ethnicities (Hmong, Thai, Laotian, various Pacific Islanders) that are under-represented.

    I would like to know the nationality of the Negro students attending New York’s elite schools. I have a feeling that many of them are West Indian or African emigrants, as opposed to the native born. Does anyone have the statistics on that?

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  • @Rdm
    This is a nice facade.

    On the surface, it looks self-righteous comment. Let's look at the 70% Asian occupied Universities that would have probably driven out so-called Whites.

    1. Stanford
    2. UC Berkeley
    3. UC Los Angeles
    4. UC San Francisco
    5. UC San Diego
    6. UC Barbara

    Those universities consistently rank among the TOP 50-100 World rankings. Those universities also outperform all other public universities combined in the country except Stanford (being private).

    What does that tell you? Once they eliminated race-based admission, Asian population skyrocketed.

    I dare you, ask ANY White Professor, if they want to get hired at those Elite Universities in the west coast or some Podunk universities in mid-west, they will choose west coast in a heartbeat. They know Asian grinds will perform whatever idea they have from top in the lab as a lab rat.

    So it doesn't matter either Whites are driven out. The question is WHO drives out Whites and make those universities Elite?

    It’s not a “facade”, so that’s strike one. It’s an honest attempt to look at a potential problem.

    Also, the university system in CA does in fact still promote “diversity”: Asian pops in the UC system topped out at about 50% eight years ago and they’ve been rigging the system since. Strike two.

    Moreover, the Asian population at those schools is not 70%; the last from Berkeley is about 33%. Strike three.

    Your argument that the top schools in CA will always be the top schools thanks to their Asian students ignores the fact that they were top schools for decades without hardly any Asian representation. Meanwhile, anyone looking for a faculty appointment will certainly take a job on the West Coast (or East Coast) for almost any appointment in the rest of the US — not to scant Chicago or Madison, WI, but the weather in the Midwest is hard to take.

    What you are basically doing is agreeing with me: If Asians achieve critical mass, then whites will stop going, and will even stop applying, to these institutions.

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    • Replies: @Rdm
    I don't know we're playing tic-tac-toe.

    Talking about a facade, extrapolating from the facade and interpreting what it could be inside is the fundamental foundation of your comment. Your opinion is, once Asian student body reaches a certain population in an institution, Whites stop going there. This might be true. But your consequential interpretation is, those colleges tend to deteriorate afterwards. I don't see that happening. Strike one.

    I said 70% Asian in CA. I stand corrected. I intentionally bloated the number because the general sentiment here in this article and comments is you all need some boogeyman. So I provided one. Strike two and strike three don't count.

    CA has been traditionally swarmed with Asian populations for CENTURIES. Leland Stanford is the guy who employed hundreds of cheap Chinese labors to work for his farms. If the first ever Chinese guy graduated from Yale was back in 1854, I'd assume you'll be hardly surprised lots of Asians graduating in California in 90s.

    Talking about decades long reputation of those CA universities and lack of Asians in California doesn't make any sense. A quick look at universities ranking in the states tell me something about the so-called decades long reputation of CA universities. Up until 1996, only UC Berkeley ranked in Top 20. Private universities took up the top spots. Jumping 4 years ahead, looking at 2000, UCLA, UCSD, UCD, UCSB, popped into Top 50. What does that tell you? Proposition 209? Your argument that CA universities have been Top schools flies out of the window. Strike two.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20070906213938/http://chronicle.com/stats/usnews/index.php?category=Universities&orgs=&sort=2000

    I agree with you about the fact that if a certain group reaches a critical mass, it becomes less likely for others to enroll at the same college, be it Blacks or Whites or Jews or Asians. But I don't agree with your interpretation or general sentiment here that once Whites leaves, the institutions tend to deteriorate. That's why I said the question should be "Who drives out the Whites?" not the self-righteous "Once Whites leave,...."

    By the way, if we need to consider a critical mass for some vague cut-off line to make more diverse, you should boycott NBA, NFL first. We need more Hispanics, Asians, Whites in those leagues. But I don't see those Asians complaining. I don't see Blacks accommodating those Asian rookies in the league either.

    So tic for tac.

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    Missing the point on both; the lowered dihydrotestosterone and reduced receptor sensitivity remains regardless of free testosterone levels, akin to reduced insulin sensitivity as seen in Type II diabetes. Any argument to the otherwise needs to demonstrate why Chinese are more neotenized, demonstrate reduced levels of body hair, and lowered hypertrophy rates - all which are reversed when testosterone treatment or supplements are taken.

    Dihydrotestosterone itself is almost three times higher affinity and five times more more active to receptors:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2298157

    Furthermore, even a generous reading of your studies doesn't demonstrate anything but that there is negligible difference, rather than support your reading of higher testosterone - which in itself would imply higher levels of aggression, etc - none which is supported by empirical readings of most East Asian cultures or supported by crime rates.

    Honestly, I don't know what you're trying to prove. You're literally doing what you shouldn't be doing with HBD(or science in general) - that is, trying to work from a premise that you already want to believe in, and then looking evidence to support it, including quoting the incredibly clickbaity Psychology Today(which also gives us gems like this to masturbate more). That is not the path of the angels; truth is to be followed even if it doesn't support your premises.

    Test level is one of these things; I wouldn't know if it is positive or negative, but its logical to follow the evidence that it isn't nearly as active. Yet I would also agree that East Asians definitely have lower openness and thus, likely lower creativity.

    Your premise of "higher test in Asians means they are more psychopathic" is one of the oddest arguments ever. Its unnecessary and almost plainly ridiculous. Generations of Clark-Unz selection is enough to encourage more practical, ruthless attitudes from a far less aggressive angle. The same selection would have led to higher IQ, and further self-selection in immigrants obvious leads to an elite immigrants. I'm a descendant of Mandarins myself.

    Really, I would suggest that you read more Peter Frost who has a far more cogent and useful theory on the differences between East Asian and North European empathy. But no, ultimately, its not out of some overestimated IQ function.

    http://www.unz.com/pfrost/affective-empathy-an-evolutionary-mistake/

    See my earlier comment for details (last time I checked it was still in moderation): http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1813320

    Taken together, these studies suggest that environmental/dietary, but not genetic, factors influence androgen production and explain the differences between Caucasian and Chinese men.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9626146 Santner et al. (1998)

    Possible dietary explanation:

    Research indicates that epigallocatechin-3-Gallate, or EGCG, one of the active constituents of green tea, also blocks the formation of DHT.

    EGCG suppresses prostate cancer cell growth modulating acetylation of androgen receptor by anti-histone acetyltransferase activity.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22505206 Lee et al. (2012)

    Mr. Chieh, are you and your family drinking lots of green tea? Would you say, that your relatives and friends back in China/East Asia are drinking more green tea than you do?

    Thank you.

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  • I teach at Stuyvesant. It is a fantastic intellectual environment. It is also an academic pressure cooker. Most of the kids come from special schools or ordinary middle schools with excellent programs for gifted kids. Some merely have Chinese “Tiger Mothers” who provide ample psychological preparation for the meat grinder that is Stuyvesant. A small number of kids with extraordinary talent manage to get in from regular NYC middle schools. Stuyvesant often turns out to be a devastating experience for these kids. They don’t have the basic skills to meet the standards. They don’t have the study skills to handle the work load. At first, they work harder than they ever have, but they remain substantially below average. Then they become withdrawn and prone to depression and drug abuse.

    I fully support efforts to create better opportunities for kids in average New York City schools. But those efforts must be directed at kids when they are younger. They must be given the preparation they need to be able to get into, and handle, schools like Stuyvesant. It is not compassionate to throw a 14 year old kid who can’t swim into a deep tank full of sharks – it is cruel.

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    • Replies: @JustAnotherNerdette
    If these kids can get in without the usual test prep and pushing, think of what they would be capable of once bought up to speed. Does the administration recognize this problem and is anything done to support the students while they catch up?

    Are their old schools expected to explain why they weren't placed into gifted programs much earlier?
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  • @Muse
    Jim Harbaugh, coach of the Michigan Wolverines football team is a huge fan of Fairlife Milk, which has the lactose filtered out of it.

    The marketing arm is headquartered in Chicago and the farms are located half-way between Chicago and West Lafayette Indiana. You can buy it all over the Midwest.

    It it is the milk of choice for white cisgendered patriots. No doubt Tom Brady, Bobby Knight and da coach (Ditka) are pounding the stuff too. Fairlife Milk = MAGA Milk Fairlife.com

    It it is the milk of choice for white cisgendered patriots. No doubt Tom Brady…

    Hehehehe…not a great advertisement…

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  • @Anon
    "This system, while it might seem meritocratic, in fact leads to a shocking inequity. "

    No shi*, moron. Meritocracy is NOT about equity. It's about separating the best from the rest. If anyone should know this, blacks should know.

    American Sports is pretty meritocratic and the results are NOT equitable, is it now? It is totally dominated by blacks. Look at the US Olympic basketball team, aka Dream Team. It's all black. Why? It is meritocratic, and it just so happens that blacks are superior when it comes to speed, strength, agility, and etc. Evolution made them that way.
    So, all the running backs are black. NBA is dominated by blacks even though blacks are only 13% of the population.

    LA has lots of Mexicans and Asians, but LA Lakers is mostly black and some white. There are no Asians or Mexicans on the team. That's how meritocracy works.

    Diversity + Meritocracy have nothing to do with 'equity'.

    Blacks can run if they are told to do so.
    Blacks can jump if they are told to do so.

    But Blacks can’t think when it comes to logic.

    That’s why Kyrie Irving said he doesn’t believe the world is round. Remember Kyrie Irving is the millions dollars worth athletes, traveling across the country by car, by flight, you name it. But he doesn’t believe the world is round. So let those blockheads swarm into elite schools and make America Great again.

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  • @SPMoore8
    From the point of view of rational humanism I am totally on your side and Mr. Chieh's with regard to merit in higher education, as well as Jack D's 100 year old argument about the same thing.

    However. Don't you see that group inequalities doesn't work very well? As it pertains to higher education, what do you think would follow if College X was, say, 70% East Asian or 70% Jewish or what have you (based strictly on merit, I grant you.) The first thing that would happen is that parents would stop encouraging their children to go to such a school, if they were neither East Asian nor Jewish. If you don' t believe me, what do you think white parents do when their public schools go 50% black or 60% black (or Latino) or whatever: they send their kids to private schools.

    So eventually you will have a situation where "nobody goes there anymore because it's too crowded" and Harvard and Princeton become the butt of crude ethnic jokes, and non-Asians or non-Jews will make some other school the source of their sense of prestige.

    What does this mean? It means that America will only work as country if everyone assimilates, and ultimately everyone intermarries, so that one's race, or heritage, or noble lineage, or inheritance does not count. The fact that our African minority is assimilating at a glacial base is evidence of our failure. (Not that there's any easy solution, I grant.)

    That's why we can't have groups fighting over whatever, and we can't have this or that group dominating every thing. That's a recipe for alienation and social conflict. If one is annoyed at the attempts by less powerful minorities (e.g., blacks, Latinos) attempting to leverage the system to get representation as a group, one cannot have at the same time some small indentifiable groups running everything at the top. It's just not healthy, and it works to create what is in effect a caste system.

    Remember when iSteve wrote about how democracy will not work in Iraq because family intermarriage worked against it? Group identification works exactly the same way. Sometimes if I wonder if we would be better off if all group identifications were prohibited.

    This is a nice facade.

    On the surface, it looks self-righteous comment. Let’s look at the 70% Asian occupied Universities that would have probably driven out so-called Whites.

    1. Stanford
    2. UC Berkeley
    3. UC Los Angeles
    4. UC San Francisco
    5. UC San Diego
    6. UC Barbara

    Those universities consistently rank among the TOP 50-100 World rankings. Those universities also outperform all other public universities combined in the country except Stanford (being private).

    What does that tell you? Once they eliminated race-based admission, Asian population skyrocketed.

    I dare you, ask ANY White Professor, if they want to get hired at those Elite Universities in the west coast or some Podunk universities in mid-west, they will choose west coast in a heartbeat. They know Asian grinds will perform whatever idea they have from top in the lab as a lab rat.

    So it doesn’t matter either Whites are driven out. The question is WHO drives out Whites and make those universities Elite?

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    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    It's not a "facade", so that's strike one. It's an honest attempt to look at a potential problem.

    Also, the university system in CA does in fact still promote "diversity": Asian pops in the UC system topped out at about 50% eight years ago and they've been rigging the system since. Strike two.

    Moreover, the Asian population at those schools is not 70%; the last from Berkeley is about 33%. Strike three.

    Your argument that the top schools in CA will always be the top schools thanks to their Asian students ignores the fact that they were top schools for decades without hardly any Asian representation. Meanwhile, anyone looking for a faculty appointment will certainly take a job on the West Coast (or East Coast) for almost any appointment in the rest of the US -- not to scant Chicago or Madison, WI, but the weather in the Midwest is hard to take.

    What you are basically doing is agreeing with me: If Asians achieve critical mass, then whites will stop going, and will even stop applying, to these institutions.
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  • @Anonymous
    After all, Harvard U. keeps down the number of Asian students it lets in by keeping the admission process subjective by giving a lot of arbitrary power to admissions staffers to let in People Like Us.

    When I was applying to colleges, it was understood that top colleges and universities weren't interested in admitting only the students with the highest grades and test scores. It was taken for granted that students would have excellent grades and standardized test scores, but the colleges were looking for students who would provide an interesting mix of interest, skills and personalities to the campus and not just an ability to do get super high grades and test scores. Why don't Asians understand this? Also, why don't Asians understand that maybe Americans want traditional American students to be well-represented at top colleges and on a path to top career opportunities? Asians seem greedy, self-centered and a bit naive in this regard. If they want admissions standards based on grades and test scores, they should go back to Asia.

    When I was applying to colleges, it was understood that top colleges and universities weren’t interested in admitting only the students with the highest grades and test scores. It was taken for granted that students would have excellent grades and standardized test scores, but the colleges were looking for students who would provide an interesting mix of interest, skills and personalities to the campus and not just an ability to do get super high grades and test scores.

    John Taylor Gatto once interviewed a recruiter for an Ivy League college. He said that the Ivy League pays only scant attention to grades and test scores. They put top importance on extracurricular activities. In general…

    1. Ivy League colleges are looking for a person with 3 types of activities – a physical activity, a mental activity, and a social activity.
    2. The recruiters prefer individual hobbies over group activities.
    3. The recruiters prefer if the individual were to undertake the activity on his/her own without the prodding and supervision of parents and teachers. In other words, they shy away from organized activities and more towards “hobbies”.
    4. The recruiters prefer activities that involved personal risk. The example they gave was that they were now interested in a lot of “X-treme” acrobatic athletes who did daredevil stunts. Other examples were rock climbers, rodeo dare devils, and kids who sailed boats into the middle of the ocean.

    I noticed that blacks, even if they did horribly in math class, tend to get along well with people and were skilled in certain “street trades” and politics. Maybe colleges want black students for reasons besides affirmative action…

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    Missing the point on both; the lowered dihydrotestosterone and reduced receptor sensitivity remains regardless of free testosterone levels, akin to reduced insulin sensitivity as seen in Type II diabetes. Any argument to the otherwise needs to demonstrate why Chinese are more neotenized, demonstrate reduced levels of body hair, and lowered hypertrophy rates - all which are reversed when testosterone treatment or supplements are taken.

    Dihydrotestosterone itself is almost three times higher affinity and five times more more active to receptors:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2298157

    Furthermore, even a generous reading of your studies doesn't demonstrate anything but that there is negligible difference, rather than support your reading of higher testosterone - which in itself would imply higher levels of aggression, etc - none which is supported by empirical readings of most East Asian cultures or supported by crime rates.

    Honestly, I don't know what you're trying to prove. You're literally doing what you shouldn't be doing with HBD(or science in general) - that is, trying to work from a premise that you already want to believe in, and then looking evidence to support it, including quoting the incredibly clickbaity Psychology Today(which also gives us gems like this to masturbate more). That is not the path of the angels; truth is to be followed even if it doesn't support your premises.

    Test level is one of these things; I wouldn't know if it is positive or negative, but its logical to follow the evidence that it isn't nearly as active. Yet I would also agree that East Asians definitely have lower openness and thus, likely lower creativity.

    Your premise of "higher test in Asians means they are more psychopathic" is one of the oddest arguments ever. Its unnecessary and almost plainly ridiculous. Generations of Clark-Unz selection is enough to encourage more practical, ruthless attitudes from a far less aggressive angle. The same selection would have led to higher IQ, and further self-selection in immigrants obvious leads to an elite immigrants. I'm a descendant of Mandarins myself.

    Really, I would suggest that you read more Peter Frost who has a far more cogent and useful theory on the differences between East Asian and North European empathy. But no, ultimately, its not out of some overestimated IQ function.

    http://www.unz.com/pfrost/affective-empathy-an-evolutionary-mistake/

    Honestly, I don’t know what you’re trying to prove. You’re literally doing what you shouldn’t be doing with HBD(or science in general) – that is, trying to work from a premise that you already want to believe in, and then looking evidence to support it, including quoting the incredibly clickbaity Psychology Today(which also gives us gems like this to masturbate more). That is not the path of the angels; truth is to be followed even if it doesn’t support your premises.

    I am not as much trying to prove anything, as I am simply sharing my “noticing” and research. I might be wrong, I might not be.

    My main issue is MAOA. Different testosterone levels among the races is just a current interest of mine, because I just discovered so much new and fascinating research, which contradicts Rushton, Lynn et al.

    I never wanted to believe that Asians (and Jews) are more anti-social than Whites, etc.:

    Studies have found differences in the frequency distribution of variants of the MAOA gene between ethnic groups:[32][33] of the participants, 59% of Black men, 54% of Chinese men, 56% of Maori men, and 34% of Caucasian men carried the 3R allele, while 5.5% of Black men, 0.1% of Caucasian men, and 0.00067% of Asian men carried the 2R allele.

    http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1725649

    Jews and the Chinese seem to be equally ambitious and competitive, some might even call it cunning. Interestingly, the two groups/races seem to have comparable IQs and seem to be carrying the low-activity 3-repeat MAOA allele at very similar rates:

    Jews (2R 1.3%; 3R 62%) carry low-activity MAOA at much higher rates than Whites (2R 0.2%; 3R 36%): http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.com/2013/01/monoamine-oxidase-bibliography.html Low-activity MAOA is associated with higher levels of aggressiveness and risk-taking

    http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1730862

    I truly believed in the the beginning that Jews were intellectually superior to Whites, i.e., high Ivy League attendance rates, Nobel Prizes, wealthy, etc.

    And I always believed the stereotype of the “ shy, nerdy and smart” Asian compared to the more dull and athletic White.

    But my in-real-life interactions and experiences with Jews and Asians (I went to boarding school, where I had dorm neighbors, who were both Chinese and Jewish) have been somewhat contrary to the positive/idealized stereotypes I wanted to believe about both groups; both groups always seemed very/the most pushy and competitive, which you kind of confirm again in this thread, with the Asians also being extremely “macho” (these Asians were mostly on Western diets, no green tea, etc.; see my other comment for the potentially significant role high green tea consumption plays in blocking DHT/testosterone). The Jews were not very athletic, but still very aggressive intellectually/verbally, if that makes any sense. Other anecdotal evidence like East Asia being associated with many “martial arts,” kind of made sense to me after finding out about the high prevalence of the low-activity MAOA allele in that population, contrary to what people like Steven Pinker claim that the “warrior gene” theory is bogus because East Asia does not have a warrior tradition/culture, etc.

    One of the ways lack [of] or low impulse control expresses itself in Asians is gambling, despite strong social disapproval of the practice and state bans on it
    [...]
    Research shows Asians in the U.S. have a disproportionate number of pathological gamblers (i.e. addicted) as compared to the general American population.

    http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1726450

    The study [in Japan] found that over 5.36 million people are addicted to gambling (4.3 million men, and just under 1 million women)—that’s almost five percent of the population (and almost nine percent of all men).

    http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1726555

    I have a theory, that high(er)-IQ Asians developed all sorts of meditation and mind and body-calming techniques (acupressure, etc.), formulas (herbal tinctures, etc.) and philosophies ( Zen, etc.) to cope with the high percentage/number of low-activity MAOA carriers and the resulting low levels of impulse control in their populations and societies.
    [...]
    I believe too, that the high prevalence of low-activity MAOA among Jews is the reason why Buddhism, meditation, etc. is so popular with Jews, i.e., a healthy and productive way for high(er)-IQ individuals to deal/cope with their low-activity MAOA

    http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1726637

    Again, this is just my own personal “noticing” and research, and I could very well be very wrong.

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    • Replies: @FKA Max
    Minor correction: One ``the'' too many, just: I truly believed in *the* beginning...

    Here is the direct quote from Steven Pinker:

    [T]he low-activity version of the gene is even more common in Chinese men ([55] percent of whom carry it), and the Chinese are neither descended from warriors in their recent history nor particularly prone to social pathology in modern societies.
     
    - http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.com/2011/10/kill-popular-science.html

    He (deliberately?) ignores or does not seem to be aware of the high number of pathological gamblers among Asians/Chinese, that I pointed to above. I believe Sheldon Adelson (a modern-day David Sassoon?) makes most of his money in Macau, nowadays.

    Coincidentally, a commenter also named ``max'' (it wasn't me) notes the following:

    max said...

    Perhaps a little research into history would debunk your assessment here? The Chinese have throughout their history been [g]overn[ed] under a feudal, agrarian, and hierarchical system and China itself was always been rife with wars, in fact far more frequently than have Colonial Sea Powers and in larger scope all the way up till WW1. [...]
     
    This Asian ``gaming/warring spirit'' has moved on to new casinos/battlefields as Mr. Sailer pointed out:

    SAT Scandal: The Global Tong War Over Test Scores

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/sat-scandal/


    ...focus on reforming testing so it isn’t gamed by new forces that a dynamic but naive mid-Century WASP like James Bryant Conant couldn’t have anticipated.
    [...]
    But globalization should have wiped out that confidence. This is global tong war over test scores.

    But Americans have yet to figure out what’s going on. That would be racist.
     

    Law-enforcement officials in this country say that highly organized rings of college-admission-exams imposters—once considered a unique artifact of the high-stakes, test-driven Chinese education system—have arrived on U.S. shores.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/sat-scandal/#comment-1544526

    Addressing Pathlogical Gambling among Asian Clients

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sTjM8J-MNs
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    As you can see, and like I mentioned as happened before pretty often to the Chinese, it really doesn't matter if you play fair or not - no population is willing to accept that they lose at a game; they'll always find some other excuse and sometimes, still claim its a meritocracy. Some even believe that it'll actually benefit them as a whole to continue in such a way.

    Its vaguely amusing. And its neither the first nor the last time I've seen cultures try to change the rules when they are losing at the game they created. In this case, they are losing at the game that they imported, after being surprised that the original inventors of it are doing so well at it.

    But a certain point is true: every culture should be allowed to do whatever they wish, wise or foolishly.

    This situation is creating division between whites and Asians. Good job! I guess our oligarchs really do know what they’re doing. I don’t think that in general whites and Asians have problems with one another. But when you get a large enough group of Asians in the U.S. – all chomping at the bit for opportunities that in the past have been pretty much the domain of whites (in institutions founded by whites for themselves) – this is the obvious result. Really, terrific. How could this not end well?

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  • @AnotherDad
    Jack, you're being too binary here.

    All real nations have "a people" with their own culture and traditions. States that plausibly don't aren't really nations. And generally, aren't particularly pleasant places to live--with a tendency toward conflict. They have a hard time being free republics, generally they end up being run by a heavy handed state--authoritarian if not worse--dedicated to keeping everyone in line. (Heck, I'm not liking the trend line of the "freedom quotient" in the US, since the Jews did their long march through the institutions and created the new diverse minoritarian America.)

    America isn't exactly like "our ancestors the Gauls" France (or rather the before time France), but it certainly did have a particular "people". I'm not going to quote John Jay. It's obvious and not subject to any serious debate. Broadly "Anglo-Protestant". The definition is broad and sloppy and America sucked up and successfully integrated people who were not one or not the other--as long as they assimilated to those norms. Every President until Kennedy was a founding stock American.

    But this bit is not just overly binary, it's ridiculous:


    If Harvard had stayed a Puritan theological seminary then sure, they could have kept everyone else out, but that’s not how they were selling it.
     
    There isn't some binary secular\seminary divide. In a *free* country colleges can have whatever orientation their founders and trustees wish. For example, my brother went to Wilmington College--a Quaker school. Wilmington is "secular"--my brother, like most of the students, not a Quaker--but that doesn't mean it ceases to be "Quaker" and is going to host the Richard Perle Center for blowing shit up.

    Despite your assertions, Harvard was not--and still isn't--some sort of American ENA that belongs to the people. Harvard is a private college.

    Harvard was an institution of the Anglo-Protestant--actually "Yankee"--tribe with their culture and traditions, dedicated to educating their young for leadership. These folks are certainly a more "open" group than say Jews, but that doesn't mean they had no claims on what they've built or had to give all their stuff away.

    Furthermore there's nothing "anti-Semitic"--in any sense of the word that's not simply Jewish propaganda--about such feelings. If say the Italians were really smart, and the Italian immigration wave led to Italians ripping up the admissions test, becoming wildly over-represented at Harvard, forming greater and greater percentages of the student body ... would Harvard trustees been complacent? Of course, not. Because the Italians aren't ethno-culturally like these Yankees. Being say 40% Italian would have dramatically altered Harvard's character. People like their culture and traditons and holding onto their stuff. It's human nature. And there's nothing wrong with it.

    And again the kicker here. The Jews now in control or at least highly influential across the Ivy League are doing exactly the same to the Asians. In fact, worse. Harvard now, is much more secular, much more a national university, much more "ENA like" (or ENS like), than it was 100 back. But the folks in control ... they like Harvard the way it is and don't want it Asianified. They've clawed their way into control and ain't in the mood to give it up.

    ~~
    A final point. Jack your argument here is basically:
    "Harvard is secular and sorta functions like an American French Grand Ecole ... therefore, regardless of who created it and owns it, Jews are entitled to all the admission their test scores merit".

    I've said, my piece on that, but even if we accept that ... in the very same breath with "Harvard Jewish quotas", Jews are whining about Country Clubs of all things. Institutions that are social and certainly not in any sense public institutions!

    The more parsimonious explanation:

    Jews while maintaining themselves as an endogamous, separate people, demand that wherever they are the host society's majority must have their institutions be open and penetrable by Jews.
     
    You don't have to agree with that explanation. I don't expect Jews to. (It would distract from the esprit de corps necessary to browbeat the host majorities.) But you should be savvy enough to understand it and understand that Jewish behavior does not appear to be all Tikkun Olamy and principled to Gentiles, but rather very self-interested and self-serving.

    “Jews while maintaining themselves as an endogamous, separate people, demand that wherever they are the host society’s majority must have their institutions be open and penetrable by Jews”

    The muslims are now playing that game.

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  • @Forbes
    Separate countries for separate peoples seems to be the rule around most of the world.

    Itz almost as if the people pushing for more multiculturalism want this country to fail.
    A multicultural nation will not survive. There need to be too many rules and too many police.
    We are witnessing the slow breakup of this nation. There’s a reason that the old history book “The Bible” was written especially the story about the tower of babel. Our governments cannot change human nature.

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  • @mp
    A) Who are the "experts" the media always quotes whenever blacks and Hispanics fail tests?

    B) One of the reasons that Tiger Moms make their kids practice the test so much is they don't want their daughter going to school with a lot of blacks and Hispanics, for obvious reasons (although they might not say so openly-but they might).

    C) Is it possible for any Jew to give an interview without mentioning anti-Semitism or the H-word?

    D) In any "disparate impact" lawsuit brought on behalf of minorities, look at the last names of the lawyers filing the suit. Then refer to C.

    A. All are University graduates.

    B. Obviously.

    C. No.

    D. If you fail to find the connection, don’t give up. It’s there. You just have to keep turning over rocks.

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  • @Jack D
    As I mentioned before, in countries where people don't define themselves by race or religion or ethnic group such as Japan or France college admission is a simple matter of rank ordering the applicant's qualifying test scores. Nobody gets any preference or is under any disadvantage because they are of the "right" or "wrong" religion or ethnicity. No one even thinks that way - they are glad to get the smartest kids that they can get. The Jews in America THOUGHT that they were living in a country like that, where we were all Americans. Harvard was supposed to be a secular institution, welcoming applicants from (and accepting donations from) people of all religions. And that had been the method used at Harvard for many decades. So they were a little shocked when Harvard changed the rules in the middle of the game just to keep them out.

    You look it as white Protestant "owning" America but I disagree - no one ethnic group "owns" America. There have been Jews and Catholics here from day 1 (hell, one of the 13 colonies was set up just for Catholics) and its just as much "ours" as anyone else's. If Harvard had stayed a Puritan theological seminary then sure, they could have kept everyone else out, but that's not how they were selling it.

    Jack, you’re being too binary here.

    All real nations have “a people” with their own culture and traditions. States that plausibly don’t aren’t really nations. And generally, aren’t particularly pleasant places to live–with a tendency toward conflict. They have a hard time being free republics, generally they end up being run by a heavy handed state–authoritarian if not worse–dedicated to keeping everyone in line. (Heck, I’m not liking the trend line of the “freedom quotient” in the US, since the Jews did their long march through the institutions and created the new diverse minoritarian America.)

    America isn’t exactly like “our ancestors the Gauls” France (or rather the before time France), but it certainly did have a particular “people”. I’m not going to quote John Jay. It’s obvious and not subject to any serious debate. Broadly “Anglo-Protestant”. The definition is broad and sloppy and America sucked up and successfully integrated people who were not one or not the other–as long as they assimilated to those norms. Every President until Kennedy was a founding stock American.

    But this bit is not just overly binary, it’s ridiculous:

    If Harvard had stayed a Puritan theological seminary then sure, they could have kept everyone else out, but that’s not how they were selling it.

    There isn’t some binary secular\seminary divide. In a *free* country colleges can have whatever orientation their founders and trustees wish. For example, my brother went to Wilmington College–a Quaker school. Wilmington is “secular”–my brother, like most of the students, not a Quaker–but that doesn’t mean it ceases to be “Quaker” and is going to host the Richard Perle Center for blowing shit up.

    Despite your assertions, Harvard was not–and still isn’t–some sort of American ENA that belongs to the people. Harvard is a private college.

    Harvard was an institution of the Anglo-Protestant–actually “Yankee”–tribe with their culture and traditions, dedicated to educating their young for leadership. These folks are certainly a more “open” group than say Jews, but that doesn’t mean they had no claims on what they’ve built or had to give all their stuff away.

    Furthermore there’s nothing “anti-Semitic”–in any sense of the word that’s not simply Jewish propaganda–about such feelings. If say the Italians were really smart, and the Italian immigration wave led to Italians ripping up the admissions test, becoming wildly over-represented at Harvard, forming greater and greater percentages of the student body … would Harvard trustees been complacent? Of course, not. Because the Italians aren’t ethno-culturally like these Yankees. Being say 40% Italian would have dramatically altered Harvard’s character. People like their culture and traditons and holding onto their stuff. It’s human nature. And there’s nothing wrong with it.

    And again the kicker here. The Jews now in control or at least highly influential across the Ivy League are doing exactly the same to the Asians. In fact, worse. Harvard now, is much more secular, much more a national university, much more “ENA like” (or ENS like), than it was 100 back. But the folks in control … they like Harvard the way it is and don’t want it Asianified. They’ve clawed their way into control and ain’t in the mood to give it up.

    ~~
    A final point. Jack your argument here is basically:
    “Harvard is secular and sorta functions like an American French Grand Ecole … therefore, regardless of who created it and owns it, Jews are entitled to all the admission their test scores merit”.

    I’ve said, my piece on that, but even if we accept that … in the very same breath with “Harvard Jewish quotas”, Jews are whining about Country Clubs of all things. Institutions that are social and certainly not in any sense public institutions!

    The more parsimonious explanation:

    Jews while maintaining themselves as an endogamous, separate people, demand that wherever they are the host society’s majority must have their institutions be open and penetrable by Jews.

    You don’t have to agree with that explanation. I don’t expect Jews to. (It would distract from the esprit de corps necessary to browbeat the host majorities.) But you should be savvy enough to understand it and understand that Jewish behavior does not appear to be all Tikkun Olamy and principled to Gentiles, but rather very self-interested and self-serving.

    Read More
    • Replies: @europeasant
    "Jews while maintaining themselves as an endogamous, separate people, demand that wherever they are the host society’s majority must have their institutions be open and penetrable by Jews"

    The muslims are now playing that game.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @FKA Max
    I believe you are wrong, twice. She is simply displaying healthy levels of ``inequity aversion.'' A very healthy, and in my opinion, noble and self-less instinct to have:

    Fehr and Schmidt showed that disadvantageous inequity aversion manifests itself in humans as the “willingness to sacrifice potential gain to block another individual from receiving a superior reward”. They argue that this apparently self-destructive response is essential in creating an environment in which bilateral bargaining can thrive. Without inequity aversion’s rejection of injustice, stable cooperation would be harder to maintain (for instance, there would be more opportunities for successful free riders[/cheaters]).[3]
     
    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1805469

    educationrealist [she or he] and Steve are resentful that there are many Asians in NY special schools. No one is claiming that Asians cheat to get in these schools but rather take a lot of prep classes and study (or grinding as Steve again resentfully puts it).

    Many of these Asians are from low income families with parents who work in restaurants and hair salons. Their parents save money to pay for the prep classes and make sure their kids study hard. This is not any sort of free riding much less cheating.

    Steve and educationrealist are white nationalists (nothing inherently wrong with this) who like denigrating Asian kids because their study habits and good family influence on social mobility through hard work harms their racial egos about the achievement of white kids. What makes them pinheads is not that they are white nationalist but they mask it in high minded language like fair play or how you put it inequity aversion.

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  • @res

    The problem with your perspective is it is not based on how the actual NYC public High School system works.
     
    I welcome other perspectives. Thanks for supplying one. It would be even better if it addressed my quantitative points. For example, was the test the same in the 1970s as in 2005/6 (e.g. do you know what percentile a perfect score was then)? Given that the test is changing now I don't think that is a safe assumption.

    Is it really that much to ask for a perfect grade on a what is a less than high school level test, without any tricky IQ test type questions. The SHSAT math is straight forward questions that you are expected to get right. Which is to say it is not at the level people imagine it to be. The hard part is plowing through a few hours of a stultifying test.
     
    If that is true of the 2006 test for which I supplied score frequency distributions then please explain how the math section there only has about 0.1% perfect scores. If that test is as you say IMHO there should be (many) more perfect scores.

    Your Hunter and Murrow points are excellent, but fairly orthogonal to my points about test scores. Any comments about who is accepted there for those of not in NYC? I'm especially interested in the minority aspect there. Are there enough celebrity/elite/etc. minorities to keep the pressure off them or do they have to make an effort to admit other groups (e.g. minorities who might qualify for Stuyvesant)?

    From looking at the wikis (thanks), Hunter and Murrow look very different. Murrow as a theater magnet school and Hunter as academically (and presumably socially) elite. One interesting thing is that Hunter claims the highest average ACT score of any HS in the US, but the one listed on Stuyvesant's wiki is higher (33 vs. 32.6).

    I don’t know about the exact scoring method, but it probably does not matter to this blog post. I doubt you will get many black kids in by relaxing the math (actually arithmetic) requirements a tiny bit or even a lot. You probably will capture bunch more white (Jewish?) kids at the cost of Asians and some nerds, so that might be a hint about what people are thinking as opposed to saying.

    Maybe the controversy is between Tiger mommies vs Liberal (Jewish?) mommies vs Rich mommies, with blacks in there because the liberal mommies don’t want to say their kids aren’t going compete on test taking with Asians. They are mostly proposing changes that will not get many if any black kids in. Those same changes might not even change the number of Asians, so you will be change the composition of whites. Rich mommies only understand that their kid was close on the tests, they paid $5 million to live in Battery Park City, and their kid can’t go to the only school in walking distance (it’s like a half hour to Dalton).

    Hunter and Murrow were and probably are both more selective than Stuyvesant. Thinking back on it, there was a no nerds police at Hunter and Murrow. Famous Hunter graduate Martin Shkreli probably got in due to his guitar playing in addition to top grades. Murrow was a Brooklyn only school, but it was when I was applying more selective than Stuyvesant.

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    Missing the point on both; the lowered dihydrotestosterone and reduced receptor sensitivity remains regardless of free testosterone levels, akin to reduced insulin sensitivity as seen in Type II diabetes. Any argument to the otherwise needs to demonstrate why Chinese are more neotenized, demonstrate reduced levels of body hair, and lowered hypertrophy rates - all which are reversed when testosterone treatment or supplements are taken.

    Dihydrotestosterone itself is almost three times higher affinity and five times more more active to receptors:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2298157

    Furthermore, even a generous reading of your studies doesn't demonstrate anything but that there is negligible difference, rather than support your reading of higher testosterone - which in itself would imply higher levels of aggression, etc - none which is supported by empirical readings of most East Asian cultures or supported by crime rates.

    Honestly, I don't know what you're trying to prove. You're literally doing what you shouldn't be doing with HBD(or science in general) - that is, trying to work from a premise that you already want to believe in, and then looking evidence to support it, including quoting the incredibly clickbaity Psychology Today(which also gives us gems like this to masturbate more). That is not the path of the angels; truth is to be followed even if it doesn't support your premises.

    Test level is one of these things; I wouldn't know if it is positive or negative, but its logical to follow the evidence that it isn't nearly as active. Yet I would also agree that East Asians definitely have lower openness and thus, likely lower creativity.

    Your premise of "higher test in Asians means they are more psychopathic" is one of the oddest arguments ever. Its unnecessary and almost plainly ridiculous. Generations of Clark-Unz selection is enough to encourage more practical, ruthless attitudes from a far less aggressive angle. The same selection would have led to higher IQ, and further self-selection in immigrants obvious leads to an elite immigrants. I'm a descendant of Mandarins myself.

    Really, I would suggest that you read more Peter Frost who has a far more cogent and useful theory on the differences between East Asian and North European empathy. But no, ultimately, its not out of some overestimated IQ function.

    http://www.unz.com/pfrost/affective-empathy-an-evolutionary-mistake/

    Comparative rates of androgen production and metabolism in Caucasian and Chinese subjects.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9626146

    To enhance the sensitivity of detection, we used an isotopic kinetic method to directly measure 5 alpha-reductase activity and found no difference in testosterone to dihydrotestosterone conversion ratios between groups.
    [...]
    Then, addressing the alternative hypothesis, we found that the Caucasian subjects excreted significantly higher levels of individual and total androgenic ketosteroids than did their Chinese counterparts. To distinguish genetic from environmental/dietary factors as a cause of these differences, we compared Chinese men living in Pennsylvania and a similar group living in Beijing, China. We detected a reduction in testosterone production rates and total plasma testosterone and sex hormone-binding levels, but not in testosterone MCRs in Beijing Chinese as a opposed to those living in Pennsylvania. Comparing Pennsylvania Chinese with their Caucasian counterparts, we detected no significant differences in total testosterone, free and weakly bound testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin levels, and testosterone production rates.Taken together, these studies suggest that environmental/dietary, but not genetic, factors influence androgen production and explain the differences between Caucasian and Chinese men.

    This might be a possible explanation:

    Green Tea

    Research indicates that epigallocatechin-3-Gallate, or EGCG, one of the active constituents of green tea, also blocks the formation of DHT. A team of scientists from Harvard Medical School reported in the February 2003 issue of The Journal of Nutrition that green tea significantly reduced DHT and testosterone concentration in the blood. In another study published in The Prostate in 2009, British researchers found that EGCG decreased cell proliferation in prostate cancer cells by inhibiting DHT and promoting apoptosis, or cell death.

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/176550-herbs-that-block-dht/

    First of all, most of the tea drunk in China is green tea, a much less processed tea than the standard black tea used in the West (which is often loaded with sugar and milk).
    [...]
    Whereas Westerners tend to have a cup of tea once or twice a day, using a different tea bag each time, the Chinese drink tea all day long.

    http://www.jkp.com/jkpblog/2010/07/what-the-chinese-approach-to-drinking-tea-can-teach-westerners-about-health-and-peace-of-mind/

    Map: The Countries That Drink the Most Tea

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/01/map-the-countries-that-drink-the-most-tea/283231/

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  • @Astuteobservor II
    people are actually talking about best "race" schools. race segregation :) hahahaha the one time racists and entitled affirmative fuckers agree on something. and it is to fuck over the smart kids of our nation. fucking A.

    article TLDR: since blacks/hispanics/whites(? pretty sure whites can compete in NYC) cannot compete on meritocracy, lets replace the current exams with arbitrary rules and affirmative action :) that must have been some tough mental gymnastic one has to perform to come out with that one.

    As you can see, and like I mentioned as happened before pretty often to the Chinese, it really doesn’t matter if you play fair or not – no population is willing to accept that they lose at a game; they’ll always find some other excuse and sometimes, still claim its a meritocracy. Some even believe that it’ll actually benefit them as a whole to continue in such a way.

    Its vaguely amusing. And its neither the first nor the last time I’ve seen cultures try to change the rules when they are losing at the game they created. In this case, they are losing at the game that they imported, after being surprised that the original inventors of it are doing so well at it.

    But a certain point is true: every culture should be allowed to do whatever they wish, wise or foolishly.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    This situation is creating division between whites and Asians. Good job! I guess our oligarchs really do know what they're doing. I don't think that in general whites and Asians have problems with one another. But when you get a large enough group of Asians in the U.S. - all chomping at the bit for opportunities that in the past have been pretty much the domain of whites (in institutions founded by whites for themselves) - this is the obvious result. Really, terrific. How could this not end well?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @FKA Max

    Most circulating testosterone is bound to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), which in men also is called testosterone-binding globulin. A lesser fraction is albumin bound and a small proportion exists as free hormone. Historically, only the free testosterone was thought to be the biologically active component. However, testosterone is weakly bound to serum albumin and dissociates freely in the capillary bed, thereby becoming readily available for tissue uptake. All non-SHBG-bound testosterone is therefore considered bioavailable.
     
    - http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/83686

    Testosterone concentrations in young healthy us versus Chinese men

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22482/abstract

    Previous small studies examining differences in testosterone concentrations by ethnicity found mixed results for Caucasians and Chinese men, which might be confounded by age differences and living standards. The aim of the present study is to examine the differences in total, free, and bioavailable testosterone concentrations between healthy young men from the United States (US) and from the most economically developed part of China, i.e., Hong Kong (HK).
    [...]
    Main outcome measures were total testosterone (TT) and calculated bioavailable testosterone (Bio T) and free testosterone (FT).
    [...]
    after adjusting for age, US men had higher TT (mean, 95% confidence interval: 21.64, 21.31–21.99 versus 20.20, 20.12–20.28 nmol/l), but not FT (0.47, 0.47–0.48 versus 0.47, 0.47–0.47 nmol/l) or Bio T (11.90, 11.83–11.97 versus 12.39, 12.35–12.42 nmol/l) than Chinese men.
    [...]
    TT, but not FT or Bio T concentrations are lower in young healthy Chinese men than US men.
     

    Missing the point on both; the lowered dihydrotestosterone and reduced receptor sensitivity remains regardless of free testosterone levels, akin to reduced insulin sensitivity as seen in Type II diabetes. Any argument to the otherwise needs to demonstrate why Chinese are more neotenized, demonstrate reduced levels of body hair, and lowered hypertrophy rates – all which are reversed when testosterone treatment or supplements are taken.

    Dihydrotestosterone itself is almost three times higher affinity and five times more more active to receptors:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2298157

    Furthermore, even a generous reading of your studies doesn’t demonstrate anything but that there is negligible difference, rather than support your reading of higher testosterone – which in itself would imply higher levels of aggression, etc – none which is supported by empirical readings of most East Asian cultures or supported by crime rates.

    Honestly, I don’t know what you’re trying to prove. You’re literally doing what you shouldn’t be doing with HBD(or science in general) – that is, trying to work from a premise that you already want to believe in, and then looking evidence to support it, including quoting the incredibly clickbaity Psychology Today(which also gives us gems like this to masturbate more). That is not the path of the angels; truth is to be followed even if it doesn’t support your premises.

    Test level is one of these things; I wouldn’t know if it is positive or negative, but its logical to follow the evidence that it isn’t nearly as active. Yet I would also agree that East Asians definitely have lower openness and thus, likely lower creativity.

    Your premise of “higher test in Asians means they are more psychopathic” is one of the oddest arguments ever. Its unnecessary and almost plainly ridiculous. Generations of Clark-Unz selection is enough to encourage more practical, ruthless attitudes from a far less aggressive angle. The same selection would have led to higher IQ, and further self-selection in immigrants obvious leads to an elite immigrants. I’m a descendant of Mandarins myself.

    Really, I would suggest that you read more Peter Frost who has a far more cogent and useful theory on the differences between East Asian and North European empathy. But no, ultimately, its not out of some overestimated IQ function.

    http://www.unz.com/pfrost/affective-empathy-an-evolutionary-mistake/

    Read More
    • Replies: @FKA Max
    Comparative rates of androgen production and metabolism in Caucasian and Chinese subjects.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9626146

    To enhance the sensitivity of detection, we used an isotopic kinetic method to directly measure 5 alpha-reductase activity and found no difference in testosterone to dihydrotestosterone conversion ratios between groups.
    [...]
    Then, addressing the alternative hypothesis, we found that the Caucasian subjects excreted significantly higher levels of individual and total androgenic ketosteroids than did their Chinese counterparts. To distinguish genetic from environmental/dietary factors as a cause of these differences, we compared Chinese men living in Pennsylvania and a similar group living in Beijing, China. We detected a reduction in testosterone production rates and total plasma testosterone and sex hormone-binding levels, but not in testosterone MCRs in Beijing Chinese as a opposed to those living in Pennsylvania. Comparing Pennsylvania Chinese with their Caucasian counterparts, we detected no significant differences in total testosterone, free and weakly bound testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin levels, and testosterone production rates.Taken together, these studies suggest that environmental/dietary, but not genetic, factors influence androgen production and explain the differences between Caucasian and Chinese men.
     
    This might be a possible explanation:

    Green Tea

    Research indicates that epigallocatechin-3-Gallate, or EGCG, one of the active constituents of green tea, also blocks the formation of DHT. A team of scientists from Harvard Medical School reported in the February 2003 issue of The Journal of Nutrition that green tea significantly reduced DHT and testosterone concentration in the blood. In another study published in The Prostate in 2009, British researchers found that EGCG decreased cell proliferation in prostate cancer cells by inhibiting DHT and promoting apoptosis, or cell death.
     
    - http://www.livestrong.com/article/176550-herbs-that-block-dht/

    First of all, most of the tea drunk in China is green tea, a much less processed tea than the standard black tea used in the West (which is often loaded with sugar and milk).
    [...]
    Whereas Westerners tend to have a cup of tea once or twice a day, using a different tea bag each time, the Chinese drink tea all day long.
     
    - http://www.jkp.com/jkpblog/2010/07/what-the-chinese-approach-to-drinking-tea-can-teach-westerners-about-health-and-peace-of-mind/

    Map: The Countries That Drink the Most Tea

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/01/map-the-countries-that-drink-the-most-tea/283231/
    , @FKA Max

    Honestly, I don’t know what you’re trying to prove. You’re literally doing what you shouldn’t be doing with HBD(or science in general) – that is, trying to work from a premise that you already want to believe in, and then looking evidence to support it, including quoting the incredibly clickbaity Psychology Today(which also gives us gems like this to masturbate more). That is not the path of the angels; truth is to be followed even if it doesn’t support your premises.
     
    I am not as much trying to prove anything, as I am simply sharing my ``noticing'' and research. I might be wrong, I might not be.

    My main issue is MAOA. Different testosterone levels among the races is just a current interest of mine, because I just discovered so much new and fascinating research, which contradicts Rushton, Lynn et al.

    I never wanted to believe that Asians (and Jews) are more anti-social than Whites, etc.:

    Studies have found differences in the frequency distribution of variants of the MAOA gene between ethnic groups:[32][33] of the participants, 59% of Black men, 54% of Chinese men, 56% of Maori men, and 34% of Caucasian men carried the 3R allele, while 5.5% of Black men, 0.1% of Caucasian men, and 0.00067% of Asian men carried the 2R allele.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1725649

    Jews and the Chinese seem to be equally ambitious and competitive, some might even call it cunning. Interestingly, the two groups/races seem to have comparable IQs and seem to be carrying the low-activity 3-repeat MAOA allele at very similar rates:

    Jews (2R 1.3%; 3R 62%) carry low-activity MAOA at much higher rates than Whites (2R 0.2%; 3R 36%): http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.com/2013/01/monoamine-oxidase-bibliography.html Low-activity MAOA is associated with higher levels of aggressiveness and risk-taking
     
    - http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1730862

    I truly believed in the the beginning that Jews were intellectually superior to Whites, i.e., high Ivy League attendance rates, Nobel Prizes, wealthy, etc.

    And I always believed the stereotype of the `` shy, nerdy and smart'' Asian compared to the more dull and athletic White.

    But my in-real-life interactions and experiences with Jews and Asians (I went to boarding school, where I had dorm neighbors, who were both Chinese and Jewish) have been somewhat contrary to the positive/idealized stereotypes I wanted to believe about both groups; both groups always seemed very/the most pushy and competitive, which you kind of confirm again in this thread, with the Asians also being extremely ``macho'' (these Asians were mostly on Western diets, no green tea, etc.; see my other comment for the potentially significant role high green tea consumption plays in blocking DHT/testosterone). The Jews were not very athletic, but still very aggressive intellectually/verbally, if that makes any sense. Other anecdotal evidence like East Asia being associated with many ``martial arts,'' kind of made sense to me after finding out about the high prevalence of the low-activity MAOA allele in that population, contrary to what people like Steven Pinker claim that the ``warrior gene'' theory is bogus because East Asia does not have a warrior tradition/culture, etc.

    One of the ways lack [of] or low impulse control expresses itself in Asians is gambling, despite strong social disapproval of the practice and state bans on it
    [...]
    Research shows Asians in the U.S. have a disproportionate number of pathological gamblers (i.e. addicted) as compared to the general American population.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1726450

    The study [in Japan] found that over 5.36 million people are addicted to gambling (4.3 million men, and just under 1 million women)—that’s almost five percent of the population (and almost nine percent of all men).
     
    - http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1726555

    I have a theory, that high(er)-IQ Asians developed all sorts of meditation and mind and body-calming techniques (acupressure, etc.), formulas (herbal tinctures, etc.) and philosophies ( Zen, etc.) to cope with the high percentage/number of low-activity MAOA carriers and the resulting low levels of impulse control in their populations and societies.
    [...]
    I believe too, that the high prevalence of low-activity MAOA among Jews is the reason why Buddhism, meditation, etc. is so popular with Jews, i.e., a healthy and productive way for high(er)-IQ individuals to deal/cope with their low-activity MAOA
     
    - http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1726637

    Again, this is just my own personal ``noticing'' and research, and I could very well be very wrong.
    , @FKA Max
    See my earlier comment for details (last time I checked it was still in moderation): http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1813320

    Taken together, these studies suggest that environmental/dietary, but not genetic, factors influence androgen production and explain the differences between Caucasian and Chinese men.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9626146 Santner et al. (1998)

    Possible dietary explanation:

    Research indicates that epigallocatechin-3-Gallate, or EGCG, one of the active constituents of green tea, also blocks the formation of DHT.

    EGCG suppresses prostate cancer cell growth modulating acetylation of androgen receptor by anti-histone acetyltransferase activity.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22505206 Lee et al. (2012)

    Mr. Chieh, are you and your family drinking lots of green tea? Would you say, that your relatives and friends back in China/East Asia are drinking more green tea than you do?

    Thank you.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Jack D
    Too bad that there's no way to remove lactose from milk. If only someone would invent an enzyme or something that breaks down lactose or filters it from the milk so that lactose intolerant people could still drink it, then milk would not be such a hated symbol of blondism.

    Jim Harbaugh, coach of the Michigan Wolverines football team is a huge fan of Fairlife Milk, which has the lactose filtered out of it.

    The marketing arm is headquartered in Chicago and the farms are located half-way between Chicago and West Lafayette Indiana. You can buy it all over the Midwest.

    It it is the milk of choice for white cisgendered patriots. No doubt Tom Brady, Bobby Knight and da coach (Ditka) are pounding the stuff too. Fairlife Milk = MAGA Milk Fairlife.com

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth

    It it is the milk of choice for white cisgendered patriots. No doubt Tom Brady...
     
    Hehehehe...not a great advertisement...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMG4GUgnlMo
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • people are actually talking about best “race” schools. race segregation :) hahahaha the one time racists and entitled affirmative fuckers agree on something. and it is to fuck over the smart kids of our nation. fucking A.

    article TLDR: since blacks/hispanics/whites(? pretty sure whites can compete in NYC) cannot compete on meritocracy, lets replace the current exams with arbitrary rules and affirmative action :) that must have been some tough mental gymnastic one has to perform to come out with that one.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    As you can see, and like I mentioned as happened before pretty often to the Chinese, it really doesn't matter if you play fair or not - no population is willing to accept that they lose at a game; they'll always find some other excuse and sometimes, still claim its a meritocracy. Some even believe that it'll actually benefit them as a whole to continue in such a way.

    Its vaguely amusing. And its neither the first nor the last time I've seen cultures try to change the rules when they are losing at the game they created. In this case, they are losing at the game that they imported, after being surprised that the original inventors of it are doing so well at it.

    But a certain point is true: every culture should be allowed to do whatever they wish, wise or foolishly.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Daniel Chieh
    Just because a study is older doesn't mean that it is less accurate*; Dutton's study employed, among other things, an anonymous website on something which would clearly can produce inaccurate data and further conflated East Asians with South Asians, who are very different genetically. The article itself mentions this:

    I would like to point out that this survey is not a scientific one and is not peer-reviewed, so the quality of its methodology is unclear.
     

    I think its far safer to bank on actually peer-reviewed medical studies in such a case, all which are pretty cohesive, and in addition to dihydrotestosterone,


    Lower testicle size and sperm production:
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.1939-4640.1998.tb02015.x/pdf

    Higher copies of CAG, which reduce sensitivity to testosterone. Whites also have more copies than Africans:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12202660


    And in the first study sperm production in Chinese men is also less than half of that estimated for Hispanic and Caucasian men; notable because it actually reduced the population size to Chinese men as opposed to conflating SEA Asians.

    This is one of those things where the empirical evidence pretty much is consistent with observed data. Honestly, its as simple as observing bulking behavior and noticing that traditionally Orientals have MUCH harder time bulking. Its not in an usable form for us, mostly.


    *Indeed, the older and more that a study has survived replication studies, the more reliable it can be.

    Most circulating testosterone is bound to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), which in men also is called testosterone-binding globulin. A lesser fraction is albumin bound and a small proportion exists as free hormone. Historically, only the free testosterone was thought to be the biologically active component. However, testosterone is weakly bound to serum albumin and dissociates freely in the capillary bed, thereby becoming readily available for tissue uptake. All non-SHBG-bound testosterone is therefore considered bioavailable.

    http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/83686

    Testosterone concentrations in young healthy us versus Chinese men

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22482/abstract

    Previous small studies examining differences in testosterone concentrations by ethnicity found mixed results for Caucasians and Chinese men, which might be confounded by age differences and living standards. The aim of the present study is to examine the differences in total, free, and bioavailable testosterone concentrations between healthy young men from the United States (US) and from the most economically developed part of China, i.e., Hong Kong (HK).
    [...]
    Main outcome measures were total testosterone (TT) and calculated bioavailable testosterone (Bio T) and free testosterone (FT).
    [...]
    after adjusting for age, US men had higher TT (mean, 95% confidence interval: 21.64, 21.31–21.99 versus 20.20, 20.12–20.28 nmol/l), but not FT (0.47, 0.47–0.48 versus 0.47, 0.47–0.47 nmol/l) or Bio T (11.90, 11.83–11.97 versus 12.39, 12.35–12.42 nmol/l) than Chinese men.
    [...]
    TT, but not FT or Bio T concentrations are lower in young healthy Chinese men than US men.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Missing the point on both; the lowered dihydrotestosterone and reduced receptor sensitivity remains regardless of free testosterone levels, akin to reduced insulin sensitivity as seen in Type II diabetes. Any argument to the otherwise needs to demonstrate why Chinese are more neotenized, demonstrate reduced levels of body hair, and lowered hypertrophy rates - all which are reversed when testosterone treatment or supplements are taken.

    Dihydrotestosterone itself is almost three times higher affinity and five times more more active to receptors:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2298157

    Furthermore, even a generous reading of your studies doesn't demonstrate anything but that there is negligible difference, rather than support your reading of higher testosterone - which in itself would imply higher levels of aggression, etc - none which is supported by empirical readings of most East Asian cultures or supported by crime rates.

    Honestly, I don't know what you're trying to prove. You're literally doing what you shouldn't be doing with HBD(or science in general) - that is, trying to work from a premise that you already want to believe in, and then looking evidence to support it, including quoting the incredibly clickbaity Psychology Today(which also gives us gems like this to masturbate more). That is not the path of the angels; truth is to be followed even if it doesn't support your premises.

    Test level is one of these things; I wouldn't know if it is positive or negative, but its logical to follow the evidence that it isn't nearly as active. Yet I would also agree that East Asians definitely have lower openness and thus, likely lower creativity.

    Your premise of "higher test in Asians means they are more psychopathic" is one of the oddest arguments ever. Its unnecessary and almost plainly ridiculous. Generations of Clark-Unz selection is enough to encourage more practical, ruthless attitudes from a far less aggressive angle. The same selection would have led to higher IQ, and further self-selection in immigrants obvious leads to an elite immigrants. I'm a descendant of Mandarins myself.

    Really, I would suggest that you read more Peter Frost who has a far more cogent and useful theory on the differences between East Asian and North European empathy. But no, ultimately, its not out of some overestimated IQ function.

    http://www.unz.com/pfrost/affective-empathy-an-evolutionary-mistake/

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @FKA Max

    Dihydrotestosterone is a form of testosterone that has a stronger virilizing effect on men, because it has three times grea[t]er affinity to the androgen receptor than regular testosterone.
    [...]
    Africans having most DHT relative to testosterone, Europeans intermediate, and East Asians the least.
    [...]
    More or less what you’ll empirically expect. Lower sperm production, reduced muscle expression, etc.
     
    This is what I had always thought/believed, as well. But...

    Both studies you are citing are from the 1990s. There is contradicting more recent research/evidence.

    Race Differences in Androgens: Do They Mean Anything?
    The Differential-K theory of race may shed more heat than light

    Posted Jan 26, 2016

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/unique-everybody-else/201601/race-differences-in-androgens-do-they-mean-anything

    However, they found that Africans were more similar to Asians than Caucasians on two of the androgen indicators. According to the logic used by Dutton et al., if sexual behavior is correlated with androgen levels, then it would be reasonable to expect Africans to be more like Asians in respect to sexual behavior as well. However, such a result would also be contrary to the predictions of their theory. I am not asserting that this is true, just that it is more consistent with what Dutton et al. found than what is predicted by their theory.
     

    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1804732

    For androgenic hair, Dutton et al. found: Caucasian > Asian > African.

    For prostate cancer incidence, Dutton et al. found: Caucasian > Asian = African.

    I do not see how the pattern for the latter two results can be used to validate the first one. More specifically, if prostate cancer and androgenic hair accurately predicted penis length, then we would expect both African men and Asian men to have smaller penises than Caucasian men, contrary to what Lynn found. (Please note, I am not asserting anything at all about actual differences in penis length between races, because I do not have sufficient data. I am commenting on the methodology used to support such claims.)

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/unique-everybody-else/201602/androgens-dodgy-penis-size-data-and-differential-k-theory
     

    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1804920

    Just because a study is older doesn’t mean that it is less accurate*; Dutton’s study employed, among other things, an anonymous website on something which would clearly can produce inaccurate data and further conflated East Asians with South Asians, who are very different genetically. The article itself mentions this:

    I would like to point out that this survey is not a scientific one and is not peer-reviewed, so the quality of its methodology is unclear.

    I think its far safer to bank on actually peer-reviewed medical studies in such a case, all which are pretty cohesive, and in addition to dihydrotestosterone,

    Lower testicle size and sperm production:

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.1939-4640.1998.tb02015.x/pdf

    Higher copies of CAG, which reduce sensitivity to testosterone. Whites also have more copies than Africans:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12202660

    And in the first study sperm production in Chinese men is also less than half of that estimated for Hispanic and Caucasian men; notable because it actually reduced the population size to Chinese men as opposed to conflating SEA Asians.

    This is one of those things where the empirical evidence pretty much is consistent with observed data. Honestly, its as simple as observing bulking behavior and noticing that traditionally Orientals have MUCH harder time bulking. Its not in an usable form for us, mostly.

    *Indeed, the older and more that a study has survived replication studies, the more reliable it can be.

    Read More
    • Replies: @FKA Max

    Most circulating testosterone is bound to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), which in men also is called testosterone-binding globulin. A lesser fraction is albumin bound and a small proportion exists as free hormone. Historically, only the free testosterone was thought to be the biologically active component. However, testosterone is weakly bound to serum albumin and dissociates freely in the capillary bed, thereby becoming readily available for tissue uptake. All non-SHBG-bound testosterone is therefore considered bioavailable.
     
    - http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/83686

    Testosterone concentrations in young healthy us versus Chinese men

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22482/abstract

    Previous small studies examining differences in testosterone concentrations by ethnicity found mixed results for Caucasians and Chinese men, which might be confounded by age differences and living standards. The aim of the present study is to examine the differences in total, free, and bioavailable testosterone concentrations between healthy young men from the United States (US) and from the most economically developed part of China, i.e., Hong Kong (HK).
    [...]
    Main outcome measures were total testosterone (TT) and calculated bioavailable testosterone (Bio T) and free testosterone (FT).
    [...]
    after adjusting for age, US men had higher TT (mean, 95% confidence interval: 21.64, 21.31–21.99 versus 20.20, 20.12–20.28 nmol/l), but not FT (0.47, 0.47–0.48 versus 0.47, 0.47–0.47 nmol/l) or Bio T (11.90, 11.83–11.97 versus 12.39, 12.35–12.42 nmol/l) than Chinese men.
    [...]
    TT, but not FT or Bio T concentrations are lower in young healthy Chinese men than US men.
     
    , @FKA Max


    For prostate cancer incidence, Dutton et al. found: Caucasian > Asian = African.
     
    I just discovered a very simple and probable reason for Dutton et al.'s unexpectedly low prostate cancer rates in Africans. Lynn and Rushton might be more correct than I thought on this particular issue:


    Prostate cancer develops mainly in older men. About 6 cases in 10 are diagnosed in men aged 65 or older, and it is rare before age 40. The average age at the time of diagnosis is about 66.
     
    - https://www.cancer.org/cancer/prostate-cancer/about/key-statistics.html

    Some of the countries Dutton et al.'s data in Africa is from:

    Kenya male life expectancy: 61.1 years

    Nigeria: 53.4 years

    Niger: 60.9 years

    Mali: 58.2 years

    Gambia: 59.8 years

    Senegal: 64.4 years

    Guinea: 58.2 years

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

    The higher the life expectancy, plus the higher the testosterone levels or sensitivity, the higher the prevalence of prostate cancer. Makes sense.

    For androgenic hair, Dutton et al. found: Caucasian > Asian > African.
     
    And the Neanderthal DNA could be the explanation why Asians have more androgenic hair than Africans, but less androgenic hair than Caucasians, despite having slightly more Neanderthal DNA, because of their lower testosterone levels and sensitivity compared to Caucasians.

    I stand corrected on these particular findings.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1818232
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Daniel Chieh
    Not sure why this was quoted, but it should be refuted since it is both true, and yet not particularly meaningful.

    Asians/Chinese on average also have the highest testosterone levels among the races, as I just recently found out:


     

    Yes, but not in an usable form. Asian men have less of the enzyme that converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone. Dihydrotestosterone is a form of testosterone that has a stronger virilizing effect on men, because it has three times greaer affinity to the androgen receptor than regular testosterone.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1827450

    Africans having most DHT relative to testosterone, Europeans intermediate, and East Asians the least.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8672990

    More or less what you'll empirically expect. Lower sperm production, reduced muscle expression, etc.

    ....do we want to live in a more psychopathic/Social Darwinist/less altruistic (and less intelligent, if the Catholic Church gets its way) society or not?
     

    Given that standardized testing was originally adopted by the French and the British specifically inspired by the Chinese, one would argue that clearly philosophers such as Voltaire saw it as merit-based and therefore would improve the system of government as mentioned in his Essai sur les mœurs et l'esprit des nations.

    So standardized testing as a whole is a foreign, Eastern import. But to rid it returns Europe and America to "letters of recommendation" and effectively, nepotism which was indeed the rule of the land. These days, its considered as corruption and I am hard pressed to see it as an improvement.

    Its exactly the mark of a clannish, kin-based society which parts of the US was, and continue to be. Nothing is wrong with wanting to preserve your culture. But it does not mean that it is a superior, or competitive method in the modern day.

    Your quote doesn't really answer anything and you should realize it yourself from an HBD perspective. Its not all that realistic for individualists to begin to consider things collectively, any more than it is possible for collectivists to consider things individually; if human behavior is largely genetic, then it the general pattern of our behavior will be writ large from small but consistent differences. Consider your own arguments: you've already gradually moved to exclude Catholics, and perhaps could easily include South Europeans and perhaps Irish. Its a pretty self-evident purity spiral.

    In the past I had mainly focused on debunking their bogus theories in regards to supposed Ashkenazi, East-Asian superior intelligence, etc
     

    At some point, you can see how it really feels like you are grasping at straws to prove superiority and how some of them can be debunked with almost laughable ease, like I did in the beginning of this comment.

    But why? What does it matter? The nativist argument on maintaining culture is enough. Its consistent, and while I can note that its likely not very competitive in the modern world, its entirely functional.

    Dihydrotestosterone is a form of testosterone that has a stronger virilizing effect on men, because it has three times grea[t]er affinity to the androgen receptor than regular testosterone.
    [...]
    Africans having most DHT relative to testosterone, Europeans intermediate, and East Asians the least.
    [...]
    More or less what you’ll empirically expect. Lower sperm production, reduced muscle expression, etc.

    This is what I had always thought/believed, as well. But…

    Both studies you are citing are from the 1990s. There is contradicting more recent research/evidence.

    Race Differences in Androgens: Do They Mean Anything?
    The Differential-K theory of race may shed more heat than light

    Posted Jan 26, 2016

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/unique-everybody-else/201601/race-differences-in-androgens-do-they-mean-anything

    However, they found that Africans were more similar to Asians than Caucasians on two of the androgen indicators. According to the logic used by Dutton et al., if sexual behavior is correlated with androgen levels, then it would be reasonable to expect Africans to be more like Asians in respect to sexual behavior as well. However, such a result would also be contrary to the predictions of their theory. I am not asserting that this is true, just that it is more consistent with what Dutton et al. found than what is predicted by their theory.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1804732

    For androgenic hair, Dutton et al. found: Caucasian > Asian > African.

    For prostate cancer incidence, Dutton et al. found: Caucasian > Asian = African.

    I do not see how the pattern for the latter two results can be used to validate the first one. More specifically, if prostate cancer and androgenic hair accurately predicted penis length, then we would expect both African men and Asian men to have smaller penises than Caucasian men, contrary to what Lynn found. (Please note, I am not asserting anything at all about actual differences in penis length between races, because I do not have sufficient data. I am commenting on the methodology used to support such claims.)

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/unique-everybody-else/201602/androgens-dodgy-penis-size-data-and-differential-k-theory

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1804920

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Just because a study is older doesn't mean that it is less accurate*; Dutton's study employed, among other things, an anonymous website on something which would clearly can produce inaccurate data and further conflated East Asians with South Asians, who are very different genetically. The article itself mentions this:

    I would like to point out that this survey is not a scientific one and is not peer-reviewed, so the quality of its methodology is unclear.
     

    I think its far safer to bank on actually peer-reviewed medical studies in such a case, all which are pretty cohesive, and in addition to dihydrotestosterone,


    Lower testicle size and sperm production:
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.1939-4640.1998.tb02015.x/pdf

    Higher copies of CAG, which reduce sensitivity to testosterone. Whites also have more copies than Africans:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12202660


    And in the first study sperm production in Chinese men is also less than half of that estimated for Hispanic and Caucasian men; notable because it actually reduced the population size to Chinese men as opposed to conflating SEA Asians.

    This is one of those things where the empirical evidence pretty much is consistent with observed data. Honestly, its as simple as observing bulking behavior and noticing that traditionally Orientals have MUCH harder time bulking. Its not in an usable form for us, mostly.


    *Indeed, the older and more that a study has survived replication studies, the more reliable it can be.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Daniel Chieh
    Have your college systems state that, then.

    Asians can work hard and be rankled all they want in Asia; our country is for us, and until every single American desiring and capable of education receives it, the most brilliant Asian in the world can go to Hell, for all I care.
     
    I respect your nativism, but not when it spills into what is basically hatred, especially in such a counterproductive way. By and large, we are not your enemy here.

    Autochthon is mean. I hate him, I hope he dies! Not to mention, our public Universities charge Asian foreign students a fortune to attend. They are not going to kill geese that lay golden, thousand year old eggs.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @FKA Max

    perhaps one of the oddities of your argument is that you are promoting both essentially clannish behavior with nativist arguments and yet also promote that “perhaps a genetic or evolutionary reason for the kind of pathological altruism found in Northern Europe.”
     
    I don't see any oddity in this. After all Mr. Sailer's blog is named ``Human Biodiversity,'' and my first comment and first reply to you on this thread (which was weirdly mangled by the commenting software for some strange reason, i.e. some links in it broke or disappeared but were still accessible through other links in the comment?) was based on a HBD argument. Do we want to live in a more psychopathic/Social Darwinist/less altruistic (and less intelligent, if the Catholic Church gets its way) society or not? It was hard for me not to beat around the bush on this very significant issue, because I don't want to offend, hurt (Chinese) people's feelings, or be impolite, etc., but I felt these things needed to be known and said.


    I personally believe Chinese immigration to the U.S. is a greater threat to America than Mexican immigration for example, precisely because of their high IQs and the high prevalence of the low-activity MAOA allele in their gene pool, which is associated with psychopathy/anti-social behavior
     
    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810132

    Asians/Chinese on average also have the highest testosterone levels among the races, as I just recently found out:

    From the above tables, it is clear that the race realist assertion is incorrect, whether one looks at the 7 so-called micro ‘races’ or the 3 so-called macro ‘races’. East Asians were found to have the highest average total plasma testosterone (5,673 ρg/mL) followed by Africans (5,442 ρg/mL) and then Europeans (4,992 ρg/mL).
     
    - https://ethnicmuse.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/east-asian-testosterone-i/

    I am a strong proponent of “race realism” and “human biodiversity,” but we need more intelligent/honest/disciplined representatives and researchers than Lynn et al. to advance this field of research, in my opinion, otherwise it just becomes/stays the laughingstock of the scientific community. In the past I had mainly focused on debunking their bogus theories in regards to supposed Ashkenazi, East-Asian superior intelligence, etc. This is my first day on testosterone levels, androgen receptors, etc.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1804920

    The femipatriarchy: higher social status and military rank correlates slightly _negatively_ with testosterone. https://twitter.com/KirkegaardEmil/status/844580643854004225
     
    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1810515

    I don't know if we are just talking past each other at this point, it surely feels like it to me, but I will give it one last try to bring my (seemingly ``odd'' and paradoxical) point and argument across, via (``endlessly'') quoting someone else again, who can speak and write much more authoritatively and eloquently than me on the subject:

    The Refutation of Libertarianism

    In honest contests, the individualist game can outcompete the collectivist game, which is why individualistic European societies conquered virtually the entire globe with superior technologies and forms of social cooperation.

    But the competition for global domination is rarely honest. Thus when Western individualist societies conquered and absorbed collectivist ones, it was only a matter of time before the more intelligent tribes learned how to cheat.
    [...]
    Individualism blinds its followers to collectivist cheats. Thus the only way to save individualism is to become aware of groups. But that sounds like collectivism. Once we become aware of parasite tribes, we have to exclude them. But that sounds like statism. If individualism is ultimately a European ethos, then individualism requires that we preserve European societies and exclude non-Europeans, which sounds like racial nationalism.

    This is the refutation of libertarianism. It is a form of self-refutation. To save individualism, we have to repudiate universalism, reintroduce the distinction between us and them, and start acting collectively.
     
    - http://www.counter-currents.com/2015/10/the-refutation-of-libertarianism/

    Not sure why this was quoted, but it should be refuted since it is both true, and yet not particularly meaningful.

    Asians/Chinese on average also have the highest testosterone levels among the races, as I just recently found out:

    Yes, but not in an usable form. Asian men have less of the enzyme that converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone. Dihydrotestosterone is a form of testosterone that has a stronger virilizing effect on men, because it has three times greaer affinity to the androgen receptor than regular testosterone.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1827450

    Africans having most DHT relative to testosterone, Europeans intermediate, and East Asians the least.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8672990

    More or less what you’ll empirically expect. Lower sperm production, reduced muscle expression, etc.

    ….do we want to live in a more psychopathic/Social Darwinist/less altruistic (and less intelligent, if the Catholic Church gets its way) society or not?

    Given that standardized testing was originally adopted by the French and the British specifically inspired by the Chinese, one would argue that clearly philosophers such as Voltaire saw it as merit-based and therefore would improve the system of government as mentioned in his Essai sur les mœurs et l’esprit des nations.

    So standardized testing as a whole is a foreign, Eastern import. But to rid it returns Europe and America to “letters of recommendation” and effectively, nepotism which was indeed the rule of the land. These days, its considered as corruption and I am hard pressed to see it as an improvement.

    Its exactly the mark of a clannish, kin-based society which parts of the US was, and continue to be. Nothing is wrong with wanting to preserve your culture. But it does not mean that it is a superior, or competitive method in the modern day.

    Your quote doesn’t really answer anything and you should realize it yourself from an HBD perspective. Its not all that realistic for individualists to begin to consider things collectively, any more than it is possible for collectivists to consider things individually; if human behavior is largely genetic, then it the general pattern of our behavior will be writ large from small but consistent differences. Consider your own arguments: you’ve already gradually moved to exclude Catholics, and perhaps could easily include South Europeans and perhaps Irish. Its a pretty self-evident purity spiral.

    In the past I had mainly focused on debunking their bogus theories in regards to supposed Ashkenazi, East-Asian superior intelligence, etc

    At some point, you can see how it really feels like you are grasping at straws to prove superiority and how some of them can be debunked with almost laughable ease, like I did in the beginning of this comment.

    But why? What does it matter? The nativist argument on maintaining culture is enough. Its consistent, and while I can note that its likely not very competitive in the modern world, its entirely functional.

    Read More
    • Replies: @FKA Max

    Dihydrotestosterone is a form of testosterone that has a stronger virilizing effect on men, because it has three times grea[t]er affinity to the androgen receptor than regular testosterone.
    [...]
    Africans having most DHT relative to testosterone, Europeans intermediate, and East Asians the least.
    [...]
    More or less what you’ll empirically expect. Lower sperm production, reduced muscle expression, etc.
     
    This is what I had always thought/believed, as well. But...

    Both studies you are citing are from the 1990s. There is contradicting more recent research/evidence.

    Race Differences in Androgens: Do They Mean Anything?
    The Differential-K theory of race may shed more heat than light

    Posted Jan 26, 2016

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/unique-everybody-else/201601/race-differences-in-androgens-do-they-mean-anything

    However, they found that Africans were more similar to Asians than Caucasians on two of the androgen indicators. According to the logic used by Dutton et al., if sexual behavior is correlated with androgen levels, then it would be reasonable to expect Africans to be more like Asians in respect to sexual behavior as well. However, such a result would also be contrary to the predictions of their theory. I am not asserting that this is true, just that it is more consistent with what Dutton et al. found than what is predicted by their theory.
     

    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1804732

    For androgenic hair, Dutton et al. found: Caucasian > Asian > African.

    For prostate cancer incidence, Dutton et al. found: Caucasian > Asian = African.

    I do not see how the pattern for the latter two results can be used to validate the first one. More specifically, if prostate cancer and androgenic hair accurately predicted penis length, then we would expect both African men and Asian men to have smaller penises than Caucasian men, contrary to what Lynn found. (Please note, I am not asserting anything at all about actual differences in penis length between races, because I do not have sufficient data. I am commenting on the methodology used to support such claims.)

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/unique-everybody-else/201602/androgens-dodgy-penis-size-data-and-differential-k-theory
     

    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1804920
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Daniel Chieh

    A good[/grinding] student [most likely not a WASP/Protestant] might even be more than a bit of a follower, a conformist, standing ready to give satisfaction to the powers that be so that one can proceed to the next good school, taking another step up the ladder of meritocracy.
     
    This doesn't change that without objective standards, the other solution is - and we did see - is basically a form of clannish nepotism. And that results more or less in corruption, taken to its natural extremes. Quoting others endlessly doesn't change that; most of the more clannish societies do indeed show higher levels of corruption and this was even true of the more clannish sections of America.

    Jack D has noted that objective standards were indeed used elsewhere with no great loss; perhaps one of the oddities of your argument is that you are promoting both essentially clannish behavior with nativist arguments and yet also promote that "perhaps a genetic or evolutionary reason for the kind of pathological altruism found in Northern Europe."

    You can't ultimately have both. You either have "pathological altruism" which results in rule by law and objective standards, which by definition can be "gamed." Or you have much more kinship based altruism and restrictions, which means that eventually greater or lesser form of nepotism will be accepted - becaused kinship based systems are by definition, some form of nepotism.

    Are you trying to say that a society will become more competitive, by adhering to standards which are by definition, less competitive?

    The North Korea argument is relevant. You can certainly have your country in any way you want, because you want a certain culture. But to also argue that's going to be overall competitive from a merit standpoint does not logically follow, at all - you can reject meritocracy, but it won't result in greater merit. You can reject reality, but you can't reject the consequences of rejecting reality.

    Honestly, I would say it largely is captured by Stationary Feast's quote of gamer parlance again:

    “anyone who cares less than you do is a filthy casual; anyone who cares more than you do is a tryhard.”

    perhaps one of the oddities of your argument is that you are promoting both essentially clannish behavior with nativist arguments and yet also promote that “perhaps a genetic or evolutionary reason for the kind of pathological altruism found in Northern Europe.”

    I don’t see any oddity in this. After all Mr. Sailer’s blog is named “Human Biodiversity,” and my first comment and first reply to you on this thread (which was weirdly mangled by the commenting software for some strange reason, i.e. some links in it broke or disappeared but were still accessible through other links in the comment?) was based on a HBD argument. Do we want to live in a more psychopathic/Social Darwinist/less altruistic (and less intelligent, if the Catholic Church gets its way) society or not? It was hard for me not to beat around the bush on this very significant issue, because I don’t want to offend, hurt (Chinese) people’s feelings, or be impolite, etc., but I felt these things needed to be known and said.

    I personally believe Chinese immigration to the U.S. is a greater threat to America than Mexican immigration for example, precisely because of their high IQs and the high prevalence of the low-activity MAOA allele in their gene pool, which is associated with psychopathy/anti-social behavior

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810132

    Asians/Chinese on average also have the highest testosterone levels among the races, as I just recently found out:

    From the above tables, it is clear that the race realist assertion is incorrect, whether one looks at the 7 so-called micro ‘races’ or the 3 so-called macro ‘races’. East Asians were found to have the highest average total plasma testosterone (5,673 ρg/mL) followed by Africans (5,442 ρg/mL) and then Europeans (4,992 ρg/mL).

    https://ethnicmuse.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/east-asian-testosterone-i/

    I am a strong proponent of “race realism” and “human biodiversity,” but we need more intelligent/honest/disciplined representatives and researchers than Lynn et al. to advance this field of research, in my opinion, otherwise it just becomes/stays the laughingstock of the scientific community. In the past I had mainly focused on debunking their bogus theories in regards to supposed Ashkenazi, East-Asian superior intelligence, etc. This is my first day on testosterone levels, androgen receptors, etc.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1804920

    The femipatriarchy: higher social status and military rank correlates slightly _negatively_ with testosterone. https://twitter.com/KirkegaardEmil/status/844580643854004225

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1810515

    I don’t know if we are just talking past each other at this point, it surely feels like it to me, but I will give it one last try to bring my (seemingly “odd” and paradoxical) point and argument across, via (“endlessly”) quoting someone else again, who can speak and write much more authoritatively and eloquently than me on the subject:

    The Refutation of Libertarianism

    In honest contests, the individualist game can outcompete the collectivist game, which is why individualistic European societies conquered virtually the entire globe with superior technologies and forms of social cooperation.

    But the competition for global domination is rarely honest. Thus when Western individualist societies conquered and absorbed collectivist ones, it was only a matter of time before the more intelligent tribes learned how to cheat.
    [...]
    Individualism blinds its followers to collectivist cheats. Thus the only way to save individualism is to become aware of groups. But that sounds like collectivism. Once we become aware of parasite tribes, we have to exclude them. But that sounds like statism. If individualism is ultimately a European ethos, then individualism requires that we preserve European societies and exclude non-Europeans, which sounds like racial nationalism.

    This is the refutation of libertarianism. It is a form of self-refutation. To save individualism, we have to repudiate universalism, reintroduce the distinction between us and them, and start acting collectively.

    http://www.counter-currents.com/2015/10/the-refutation-of-libertarianism/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Not sure why this was quoted, but it should be refuted since it is both true, and yet not particularly meaningful.

    Asians/Chinese on average also have the highest testosterone levels among the races, as I just recently found out:


     

    Yes, but not in an usable form. Asian men have less of the enzyme that converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone. Dihydrotestosterone is a form of testosterone that has a stronger virilizing effect on men, because it has three times greaer affinity to the androgen receptor than regular testosterone.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1827450

    Africans having most DHT relative to testosterone, Europeans intermediate, and East Asians the least.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8672990

    More or less what you'll empirically expect. Lower sperm production, reduced muscle expression, etc.

    ....do we want to live in a more psychopathic/Social Darwinist/less altruistic (and less intelligent, if the Catholic Church gets its way) society or not?
     

    Given that standardized testing was originally adopted by the French and the British specifically inspired by the Chinese, one would argue that clearly philosophers such as Voltaire saw it as merit-based and therefore would improve the system of government as mentioned in his Essai sur les mœurs et l'esprit des nations.

    So standardized testing as a whole is a foreign, Eastern import. But to rid it returns Europe and America to "letters of recommendation" and effectively, nepotism which was indeed the rule of the land. These days, its considered as corruption and I am hard pressed to see it as an improvement.

    Its exactly the mark of a clannish, kin-based society which parts of the US was, and continue to be. Nothing is wrong with wanting to preserve your culture. But it does not mean that it is a superior, or competitive method in the modern day.

    Your quote doesn't really answer anything and you should realize it yourself from an HBD perspective. Its not all that realistic for individualists to begin to consider things collectively, any more than it is possible for collectivists to consider things individually; if human behavior is largely genetic, then it the general pattern of our behavior will be writ large from small but consistent differences. Consider your own arguments: you've already gradually moved to exclude Catholics, and perhaps could easily include South Europeans and perhaps Irish. Its a pretty self-evident purity spiral.

    In the past I had mainly focused on debunking their bogus theories in regards to supposed Ashkenazi, East-Asian superior intelligence, etc
     

    At some point, you can see how it really feels like you are grasping at straws to prove superiority and how some of them can be debunked with almost laughable ease, like I did in the beginning of this comment.

    But why? What does it matter? The nativist argument on maintaining culture is enough. Its consistent, and while I can note that its likely not very competitive in the modern world, its entirely functional.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • A Chinese lady I know said her American born Chinese kids are simple-minded because they don’t lock doors and because they didn’t share information about a school project after the teacher made them sign a paper saying that they would not share info.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @George
    The problem with your perspective is it is not based on how the actual NYC public High School system works. When I applied for HSs in the 70's, which was a long time agao during a financial crisis so Stuy High might be better now, Hunter was the most selective school, and in terms of an academic program the most innovative. Hunter was connected with CCNY a top tier university system so there was some quality control. Stuyvesant was run by and for the NYC board of education. As long as Stuy High was better than other regular High Schools, they accomplished their mission.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_College_High_School
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_R._Murrow_High_School#Notable_alumni

    So this stuff about Stuyvesant being the most coveted blah blah blah, is mostly invented. I suspect they might like talking about Stuyvesant because the more fluid, Ivy league like, admissions standards at Hunter could be altered to be more 'affirmative' for minorities, and the educrats would hate that.

    If you look at the math part, Stuyvesant claims to be a math school, it is actually not very advanced. For example, you have to have fractions and decimals down pat including factions made up of fractions and decimals. So? Is it really that much to ask for a perfect grade on a what is a less than high school level test, without any tricky IQ test type questions. The SHSAT math is straight forward questions that you are expected to get right. Which is to say it is not at the level people imagine it to be. The hard part is plowing through a few hours of a stultifying test.

    When I applied to High Schools I applied to Hunter, Murrow (local, about as good, alternative to Hunter), and Stuyvesant. I was accepted into only Stuyvesant along with a couple of other kids, none of whom were accepted at Hunter or Murrow. That is a hint about how the system works.

    The problem with your perspective is it is not based on how the actual NYC public High School system works.

    I welcome other perspectives. Thanks for supplying one. It would be even better if it addressed my quantitative points. For example, was the test the same in the 1970s as in 2005/6 (e.g. do you know what percentile a perfect score was then)? Given that the test is changing now I don’t think that is a safe assumption.

    Is it really that much to ask for a perfect grade on a what is a less than high school level test, without any tricky IQ test type questions. The SHSAT math is straight forward questions that you are expected to get right. Which is to say it is not at the level people imagine it to be. The hard part is plowing through a few hours of a stultifying test.

    If that is true of the 2006 test for which I supplied score frequency distributions then please explain how the math section there only has about 0.1% perfect scores. If that test is as you say IMHO there should be (many) more perfect scores.

    Your Hunter and Murrow points are excellent, but fairly orthogonal to my points about test scores. Any comments about who is accepted there for those of not in NYC? I’m especially interested in the minority aspect there. Are there enough celebrity/elite/etc. minorities to keep the pressure off them or do they have to make an effort to admit other groups (e.g. minorities who might qualify for Stuyvesant)?

    From looking at the wikis (thanks), Hunter and Murrow look very different. Murrow as a theater magnet school and Hunter as academically (and presumably socially) elite. One interesting thing is that Hunter claims the highest average ACT score of any HS in the US, but the one listed on Stuyvesant’s wiki is higher (33 vs. 32.6).

    Read More
    • Replies: @George
    I don't know about the exact scoring method, but it probably does not matter to this blog post. I doubt you will get many black kids in by relaxing the math (actually arithmetic) requirements a tiny bit or even a lot. You probably will capture bunch more white (Jewish?) kids at the cost of Asians and some nerds, so that might be a hint about what people are thinking as opposed to saying.

    Maybe the controversy is between Tiger mommies vs Liberal (Jewish?) mommies vs Rich mommies, with blacks in there because the liberal mommies don't want to say their kids aren't going compete on test taking with Asians. They are mostly proposing changes that will not get many if any black kids in. Those same changes might not even change the number of Asians, so you will be change the composition of whites. Rich mommies only understand that their kid was close on the tests, they paid $5 million to live in Battery Park City, and their kid can't go to the only school in walking distance (it's like a half hour to Dalton).

    Hunter and Murrow were and probably are both more selective than Stuyvesant. Thinking back on it, there was a no nerds police at Hunter and Murrow. Famous Hunter graduate Martin Shkreli probably got in due to his guitar playing in addition to top grades. Murrow was a Brooklyn only school, but it was when I was applying more selective than Stuyvesant.
    , @Triumph104

    I’m especially interested in the minority aspect there.
     
    Hunter is a school for the highly gifted and not part of the public school system. All applicants are tested. Kindergarten applicants take the Stanford-Binet V in Round 1. Those that do well in Round 1 are observed in a group session. Applicants to the high school (grades 7-12) who scored high on their 5th grade standardized exam in both English and math are invited to take a Hunter entrance exam. The high school is 39% white, 2% black, 2% Hispanic, 45% Asian. (The kids from the elementary school are automatically admitted to the high school.)

    Edward R Murrow is a communications school with an arts magnet and bilingual programs for native Mandarin or Spanish speakers. Over 2/3 of the students are in communications which is also an educational option (ed opt) program. Ed opt means that students of all intellectual abilities have to be selected. The department of education selects half the students and the school can select the other half. Priority is given to kids in the school's zone. The bilingual kids have to speak Mandarin or Spanish at home. The arts kids are selected by audition and grades (min. 80 except for math-min 75).

    Murrow is 28% white, 23% black, 20% Hispanic, 27% Asian. Although the school has an enrollment of about 4000, there are no sports of great interest to blacks like basketball or track and field. The school didn't participate in sports until 2012. Sports are badminton, table tennis, golf, wrestling, bowling, cross country and volleyball.

    The Murrow information is from the 2017 High School Directory:
    http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/00F2DEB3-4F50-4747-A14E-E53295E078DC/0/2017NYCHSDirectoryCitywideENGLISH.pdf

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @George
    The problem with your perspective is it is not based on how the actual NYC public High School system works. When I applied for HSs in the 70's, which was a long time agao during a financial crisis so Stuy High might be better now, Hunter was the most selective school, and in terms of an academic program the most innovative. Hunter was connected with CCNY a top tier university system so there was some quality control. Stuyvesant was run by and for the NYC board of education. As long as Stuy High was better than other regular High Schools, they accomplished their mission.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_College_High_School
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_R._Murrow_High_School#Notable_alumni

    So this stuff about Stuyvesant being the most coveted blah blah blah, is mostly invented. I suspect they might like talking about Stuyvesant because the more fluid, Ivy league like, admissions standards at Hunter could be altered to be more 'affirmative' for minorities, and the educrats would hate that.

    If you look at the math part, Stuyvesant claims to be a math school, it is actually not very advanced. For example, you have to have fractions and decimals down pat including factions made up of fractions and decimals. So? Is it really that much to ask for a perfect grade on a what is a less than high school level test, without any tricky IQ test type questions. The SHSAT math is straight forward questions that you are expected to get right. Which is to say it is not at the level people imagine it to be. The hard part is plowing through a few hours of a stultifying test.

    When I applied to High Schools I applied to Hunter, Murrow (local, about as good, alternative to Hunter), and Stuyvesant. I was accepted into only Stuyvesant along with a couple of other kids, none of whom were accepted at Hunter or Murrow. That is a hint about how the system works.

    My impression is that Hunter works more like a private school in admissions. And there are reasons why private schools do what they do.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @res
    Thanks for the informative link. I did not see a quantification of English/math ease there. Here are some more links.

    Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialized_High_Schools_Admissions_Test
    I see that aligns with ER's earlier comment. From wiki:

    A November 2005, a New York Times article found that students scoring in the 90th percentile on both sections would not gain admittance to their first choice schools; meanwhile those scoring in the 99th percentile on one section and the 50th percentile on the other, would.[14] This happens because the final grade and percentile represent the total score and the curve within sections.
     
    I think the example in the NYT article (reference 14) was even more stunning:
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9500EEDD133EF931A25752C1A9639C8B63&legacy=true

    Last year, for instance, a student with a 99 percentile score in math and 49 percentile in verbal would have been admitted to Stuyvesant High School -- the most coveted specialized school -- but a student with a 97 in math and 92 in verbal would not.
     
    That certainly does seem unreasonable to me. But, I'm assuming there is not an issue with truncating the percentile and they really mean something like 99.99. And reading closer I see the scores were really 291, or 41 questions answered correctly vs. 369/50 so my assumption might be violated (that's a 26% increase in score and 22% difference in raw score!).

    This link has some good information on SHSAT scoring details: http://testprepshsat.com/shsat-strategy/
    including 2006 verbal/math frequency distributions! Which are quite different from each other. The verbal test has a much fatter right tail.

    Looking at the math distribution it looks like a perfect score is better than 99.9%. I find it defensible to select for talent that uncommon and find the NYT characterization of that as 99% misleading. For perspective, per https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/SATIQ.aspx the IQs matching those percentiles are 146 and 135 (about 0.75SD difference). 97% is 128 so the difference between 99.9% and 99% is actually larger in an ability sense than the difference between 99% and 97%.

    Note that the SHSAT is currently being redone so all of this information will be obsolete soon. I guess one of the ways we "close gaps" is to ensure frequent enough change that nobody can get a handle on what is going on and/or make comparisons across time (e.g. the SAT).

    The problem with your perspective is it is not based on how the actual NYC public High School system works. When I applied for HSs in the 70′s, which was a long time agao during a financial crisis so Stuy High might be better now, Hunter was the most selective school, and in terms of an academic program the most innovative. Hunter was connected with CCNY a top tier university system so there was some quality control. Stuyvesant was run by and for the NYC board of education. As long as Stuy High was better than other regular High Schools, they accomplished their mission.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_College_High_School

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_R._Murrow_High_School#Notable_alumni

    So this stuff about Stuyvesant being the most coveted blah blah blah, is mostly invented. I suspect they might like talking about Stuyvesant because the more fluid, Ivy league like, admissions standards at Hunter could be altered to be more ‘affirmative’ for minorities, and the educrats would hate that.

    If you look at the math part, Stuyvesant claims to be a math school, it is actually not very advanced. For example, you have to have fractions and decimals down pat including factions made up of fractions and decimals. So? Is it really that much to ask for a perfect grade on a what is a less than high school level test, without any tricky IQ test type questions. The SHSAT math is straight forward questions that you are expected to get right. Which is to say it is not at the level people imagine it to be. The hard part is plowing through a few hours of a stultifying test.

    When I applied to High Schools I applied to Hunter, Murrow (local, about as good, alternative to Hunter), and Stuyvesant. I was accepted into only Stuyvesant along with a couple of other kids, none of whom were accepted at Hunter or Murrow. That is a hint about how the system works.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that Hunter works more like a private school in admissions. And there are reasons why private schools do what they do.
    , @res

    The problem with your perspective is it is not based on how the actual NYC public High School system works.
     
    I welcome other perspectives. Thanks for supplying one. It would be even better if it addressed my quantitative points. For example, was the test the same in the 1970s as in 2005/6 (e.g. do you know what percentile a perfect score was then)? Given that the test is changing now I don't think that is a safe assumption.

    Is it really that much to ask for a perfect grade on a what is a less than high school level test, without any tricky IQ test type questions. The SHSAT math is straight forward questions that you are expected to get right. Which is to say it is not at the level people imagine it to be. The hard part is plowing through a few hours of a stultifying test.
     
    If that is true of the 2006 test for which I supplied score frequency distributions then please explain how the math section there only has about 0.1% perfect scores. If that test is as you say IMHO there should be (many) more perfect scores.

    Your Hunter and Murrow points are excellent, but fairly orthogonal to my points about test scores. Any comments about who is accepted there for those of not in NYC? I'm especially interested in the minority aspect there. Are there enough celebrity/elite/etc. minorities to keep the pressure off them or do they have to make an effort to admit other groups (e.g. minorities who might qualify for Stuyvesant)?

    From looking at the wikis (thanks), Hunter and Murrow look very different. Murrow as a theater magnet school and Hunter as academically (and presumably socially) elite. One interesting thing is that Hunter claims the highest average ACT score of any HS in the US, but the one listed on Stuyvesant's wiki is higher (33 vs. 32.6).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @FKA Max

    But that’s the way of modernity, so ultimately what you’re advocating is much less a pushback against foreign customs as it is a pushback against potentially cruel, but modern customs.
     
    No. I am basically saying what commenter Autochthon said to you before:

    Asians can live in Asia and go to Asian schools; Americans will live in America and attend American schools.

    Everybody wins. Asians can work hard and be rank[]ed all they want in Asia;
     

    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810086

    that’s fine, but if it is not stated directly but instead hidden in other smoke and mirrors, its essentially hypocrisy.
     
    I understand your argument and frustration, but maybe instead of interpreting it as ``hypocrisy(/malice),'' try to understand it as something more akin to ``misguided/pathological'' politeness, another version/expression of political correctness. They don't want to offend, but are realizing, that something went terribly awry, but they are not quite sure yet how to remedy and handle the problem, especially without being labeled as ``racists,'' etc. by the usual suspects (SJWs, Tiger Daughters, etc.):

    Are Tiger Daughters Taking Over the SJW Racket?

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/are-tiger-daughters-taking-over-the-sjw-racket/

    SAT Scandal: The Global Tong War Over Test Scores

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/sat-scandal/


    One of my concerns over the last decade is that the high end testing systems in the U.S. are falling apart under the onslaught of millions of Tiger Mothers and their progeny.
     

    Seriously, if you can get your followers to score higher on the gatekeeper tests, they may become the ruling class of the future—a lesson that American conservatives might ponder. In general, American conservatives have felt that it wouldn’t be sporting for them to think in any organized fashioned about how to game tests such as the SAT. But the older civilizations have little patience for such boyish innocence.

    … typical, pathological WASP/Northern European altruism/idealism at its finest/worst.
     

    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/he-who-controls-test-prep-controls-the-future/#comment-1512545

    In the first hour, Kevin outlines his recent work, which explores theories of a genetic basis for altruism and the lack of ethnic awareness or kinship oriented nepotism. He explains recent scientific studies that are finding there is perhaps a genetic or evolutionary reason for the kind of pathological altruism found in Northern Europe.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/article/two-cheers-for-trump-advisor-mike-anton-he-has-the-right-enemies/#comment-1771264

    We previously briefly discussed the connection between Northern European/Protestant peoples and innovativeness (and science in general) with each other, and this is basically what it all boils down to for me:


    The less Protestant/Northern European and more Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, etc. the U.S. becomes, the less industrious and rich it will be…
     
    - http://www.unz.com/article/two-cheers-for-trump-advisor-mike-anton-he-has-the-right-enemies/#comment-1774065

    There’s something about those Nordic countries.
    [...]
    The following ranking of the Bloomberg Innovation Index is from 2015, and countries rise or fall within the ranking from year to year, but the dominance of the historically majority Protestant nations with Northern European-derived populations in the Top 20 is very consistent
    [...]
    So I think it’s safe to say that Protestantism is the dominant religious expression of the Anglo-Germanic peoples, and only the Anglo-Germanic peoples. And, getting back to the original northern rebellion against southern corruption, the Anglo-Germanic nations remain the gold standard in honesty and transparency.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/article/two-cheers-for-trump-advisor-mike-anton-he-has-the-right-enemies/#comment-1772339

    Merton thesis

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merton_thesis

    Merton focuses on English Puritanism and German Pietism as being responsible for the development of the scientific revolution of the 17th and 18th centuries. He explains that the connection between religious affiliation and interest in science is a result of a significant synergy between the ascetic Protestant values and those of modern science.[5] Protestant values encouraged scientific research by allowing science to identify God's influence on the world and thus providing religious justification for scientific research.[1]
    [...]
    Instead, modern (white) Protestants and Jews had a high degree of "intellectual autonomy" that facilitated scientific and technical advance.[10] By contrast, Lenski pointed out, Catholics developed an intellectual orientation which valued "obedience" to the teachings of their church above intellectual autonomy, which made them less inclined to enter scientific careers. Catholic sociologists[11][12] had come to the same conclusions.[13]
    [...]
    Lenski traced these differences back to the Reformation and the Catholic church's reaction to it. In Lenski's view, the Reformation encouraged intellectual autonomy among Protestants, in particular the Anabaptists, Puritans, Pietists, Methodists, and Presbyterians. In the Middle Ages, there had been tendencies toward intellectual autonomy, as exemplified in men like Erasmus. But after the Reformation, the Catholic leaders increasingly identified these tendencies with Protestantism and heresy and demanded that Catholics be obedient and faithful to ecclesiastical discipline.
     


    A good[/grinding] student [most likely not a WASP/Protestant] might even be more than a bit of a follower, a conformist, standing ready to give satisfaction to the powers that be so that one can proceed to the next good school, taking another step up the ladder of meritocracy.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/forum/white-students-unfair-advantage-in-admissions/#comment-1748458

    A good[/grinding] student [most likely not a WASP/Protestant] might even be more than a bit of a follower, a conformist, standing ready to give satisfaction to the powers that be so that one can proceed to the next good school, taking another step up the ladder of meritocracy.

    This doesn’t change that without objective standards, the other solution is – and we did see – is basically a form of clannish nepotism. And that results more or less in corruption, taken to its natural extremes. Quoting others endlessly doesn’t change that; most of the more clannish societies do indeed show higher levels of corruption and this was even true of the more clannish sections of America.

    Jack D has noted that objective standards were indeed used elsewhere with no great loss; perhaps one of the oddities of your argument is that you are promoting both essentially clannish behavior with nativist arguments and yet also promote that “perhaps a genetic or evolutionary reason for the kind of pathological altruism found in Northern Europe.”

    You can’t ultimately have both. You either have “pathological altruism” which results in rule by law and objective standards, which by definition can be “gamed.” Or you have much more kinship based altruism and restrictions, which means that eventually greater or lesser form of nepotism will be accepted – becaused kinship based systems are by definition, some form of nepotism.

    Are you trying to say that a society will become more competitive, by adhering to standards which are by definition, less competitive?

    The North Korea argument is relevant. You can certainly have your country in any way you want, because you want a certain culture. But to also argue that’s going to be overall competitive from a merit standpoint does not logically follow, at all – you can reject meritocracy, but it won’t result in greater merit. You can reject reality, but you can’t reject the consequences of rejecting reality.

    Honestly, I would say it largely is captured by Stationary Feast’s quote of gamer parlance again:

    “anyone who cares less than you do is a filthy casual; anyone who cares more than you do is a tryhard.”

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    • Replies: @FKA Max

    perhaps one of the oddities of your argument is that you are promoting both essentially clannish behavior with nativist arguments and yet also promote that “perhaps a genetic or evolutionary reason for the kind of pathological altruism found in Northern Europe.”
     
    I don't see any oddity in this. After all Mr. Sailer's blog is named ``Human Biodiversity,'' and my first comment and first reply to you on this thread (which was weirdly mangled by the commenting software for some strange reason, i.e. some links in it broke or disappeared but were still accessible through other links in the comment?) was based on a HBD argument. Do we want to live in a more psychopathic/Social Darwinist/less altruistic (and less intelligent, if the Catholic Church gets its way) society or not? It was hard for me not to beat around the bush on this very significant issue, because I don't want to offend, hurt (Chinese) people's feelings, or be impolite, etc., but I felt these things needed to be known and said.


    I personally believe Chinese immigration to the U.S. is a greater threat to America than Mexican immigration for example, precisely because of their high IQs and the high prevalence of the low-activity MAOA allele in their gene pool, which is associated with psychopathy/anti-social behavior
     
    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810132

    Asians/Chinese on average also have the highest testosterone levels among the races, as I just recently found out:

    From the above tables, it is clear that the race realist assertion is incorrect, whether one looks at the 7 so-called micro ‘races’ or the 3 so-called macro ‘races’. East Asians were found to have the highest average total plasma testosterone (5,673 ρg/mL) followed by Africans (5,442 ρg/mL) and then Europeans (4,992 ρg/mL).
     
    - https://ethnicmuse.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/east-asian-testosterone-i/

    I am a strong proponent of “race realism” and “human biodiversity,” but we need more intelligent/honest/disciplined representatives and researchers than Lynn et al. to advance this field of research, in my opinion, otherwise it just becomes/stays the laughingstock of the scientific community. In the past I had mainly focused on debunking their bogus theories in regards to supposed Ashkenazi, East-Asian superior intelligence, etc. This is my first day on testosterone levels, androgen receptors, etc.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1804920

    The femipatriarchy: higher social status and military rank correlates slightly _negatively_ with testosterone. https://twitter.com/KirkegaardEmil/status/844580643854004225
     
    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1810515

    I don't know if we are just talking past each other at this point, it surely feels like it to me, but I will give it one last try to bring my (seemingly ``odd'' and paradoxical) point and argument across, via (``endlessly'') quoting someone else again, who can speak and write much more authoritatively and eloquently than me on the subject:

    The Refutation of Libertarianism

    In honest contests, the individualist game can outcompete the collectivist game, which is why individualistic European societies conquered virtually the entire globe with superior technologies and forms of social cooperation.

    But the competition for global domination is rarely honest. Thus when Western individualist societies conquered and absorbed collectivist ones, it was only a matter of time before the more intelligent tribes learned how to cheat.
    [...]
    Individualism blinds its followers to collectivist cheats. Thus the only way to save individualism is to become aware of groups. But that sounds like collectivism. Once we become aware of parasite tribes, we have to exclude them. But that sounds like statism. If individualism is ultimately a European ethos, then individualism requires that we preserve European societies and exclude non-Europeans, which sounds like racial nationalism.

    This is the refutation of libertarianism. It is a form of self-refutation. To save individualism, we have to repudiate universalism, reintroduce the distinction between us and them, and start acting collectively.
     
    - http://www.counter-currents.com/2015/10/the-refutation-of-libertarianism/
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  • The issue is that some so called minorities do not consider their children’s education seriously. Who cares if they do their studies, and homework, and extra curriculum to advance. When I was in high school, I was in competence with an Asian kid, from Malaysia and we spent up to three hours studying in the library after school hrs. We both graduated, but a female from Colorado beat our rears and I was second after her. The Indonesian kid, I think he was 12th, in the graduating class. So yes, the wish to succeed and the personal effort area key components of reaching and getting where you want to be in life.

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  • @Thomas
    OT: the latest bold new front in endless war for Social Justice: dairy = hate, because whites are lactose tolerant (and, I assume, because milk is another "white bread" food).

    "Jordan Peele explains 'Get Out's' creepy milk scene, ponders the recent link between dairy and hate," http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-get-out-milk-horror-jordan-peele-allison-williams-20170301-story.html

    As the race-fueled carnage unfolds, it all leads up to a jarring — almost unbelievable — moment where Williams sits serenely in her childhood bedroom, headphones on, jamming out to the theme from “Dirty Dancing.” Munching on dry Froot Loops, she coolly quenches her thirst by sipping a tall glass of milk through a straw.

    It’s one of the most sinister sips in movie history, up there with Hannibal Lecter’s Chianti slurp, set to the ’80s anthem “(I’ve Had) The Time of My Life.” An instant visual encapsulation of “Get Out’s” evil.
    ...
    Milk, it has been argued of late, is the new symbol of white supremacy in America, owing to its hue and the notion that lactose intolerance in certain ethnicities means that milk-absorbing Caucasian genetics are superior.
     
    I've been jokingly referring to lactose tolerance lately as "the original white privilege" with this meme kicking around.

    The US in general is so race obsessed that you cannot get out of it for nothing. All is race based, and it is a drag to everyone. Before the 1970s, Mexicans were counted as ‘white’, or as I once heard, ‘dark white’. After those years, you are labeled with so much, Latino, Latinex, Asian, African American, Euro American, (better known as whites), etc. Not longer are you German American, French American, Russian American, etc. So the real Americans please raise your hand! I wish I was just a normal day to day American, without the hyphenated extra.

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    She's not Catholic herself, but accepts a lot of their mores; she comes from a family of over ten children, and has been insisting that we have at least half of that, for example. Her ancestry is obviously Catholic: she's descended largely - over 90% - from the original French settlement in Quebec with a slight admixture of Irish descent from one of the settlers that went to Canada instead of the US during the famine years.

    That said, I've never heard of her say anything negative about WASPs and she identifies her culture as basically American, with a lesser emphasis on French. And knowing several others, I'll say that the culture of meritocracy is indeed the modern culture; the other assumption of a more clannish culture is always avoided since it ultimately runs up against the notion of the rule of law, and nepotism becomes even more common. It naturally lends after all, that if you favor your subgroup over other subgroups, that you'll favor your family over other families, and so on.

    Most people would see that as corruption, and lead to enough inefficiencies that its not widely advocated. Frankly, its not far from the argument used by North Korea and we all now how successful that country is. You could easily argue that it doesn't matter so as long as that is what you desire, and that's perfectly fine.

    At any rate, you've repeated the nativist argument a few times. I understand it and I've answered it several times: that's fine, but if it is not stated directly but instead hidden in other smoke and mirrors, its essentially hypocrisy. Finally, I've never been in support of unlimited immigration, and rate does matter.

    But you're correct: I have a more Social Darwainian bent as does my wife. Social Darwainism, I should note, has Anglo origins as well e.g. Herbert Spencer. and as you noted, isn't even that traditional to some aspects of Chinese culture. But that's the way of modernity, so ultimately what you're advocating is much less a pushback against foreign customs as it is a pushback against potentially cruel, but modern customs.

    But that’s the way of modernity, so ultimately what you’re advocating is much less a pushback against foreign customs as it is a pushback against potentially cruel, but modern customs.

    No. I am basically saying what commenter Autochthon said to you before:

    Asians can live in Asia and go to Asian schools; Americans will live in America and attend American schools.

    Everybody wins. Asians can work hard and be rank[]ed all they want in Asia;

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810086

    that’s fine, but if it is not stated directly but instead hidden in other smoke and mirrors, its essentially hypocrisy.

    I understand your argument and frustration, but maybe instead of interpreting it as “hypocrisy(/malice),” try to understand it as something more akin to “misguided/pathological” politeness, another version/expression of political correctness. They don’t want to offend, but are realizing, that something went terribly awry, but they are not quite sure yet how to remedy and handle the problem, especially without being labeled as “racists,” etc. by the usual suspects (SJWs, Tiger Daughters, etc.):

    Are Tiger Daughters Taking Over the SJW Racket?

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/are-tiger-daughters-taking-over-the-sjw-racket/

    SAT Scandal: The Global Tong War Over Test Scores

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/sat-scandal/

    One of my concerns over the last decade is that the high end testing systems in the U.S. are falling apart under the onslaught of millions of Tiger Mothers and their progeny.

    Seriously, if you can get your followers to score higher on the gatekeeper tests, they may become the ruling class of the future—a lesson that American conservatives might ponder. In general, American conservatives have felt that it wouldn’t be sporting for them to think in any organized fashioned about how to game tests such as the SAT. But the older civilizations have little patience for such boyish innocence.

    … typical, pathological WASP/Northern European altruism/idealism at its finest/worst.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/he-who-controls-test-prep-controls-the-future/#comment-1512545

    In the first hour, Kevin outlines his recent work, which explores theories of a genetic basis for altruism and the lack of ethnic awareness or kinship oriented nepotism. He explains recent scientific studies that are finding there is perhaps a genetic or evolutionary reason for the kind of pathological altruism found in Northern Europe.

    http://www.unz.com/article/two-cheers-for-trump-advisor-mike-anton-he-has-the-right-enemies/#comment-1771264

    We previously briefly discussed the connection between Northern European/Protestant peoples and innovativeness (and science in general) with each other, and this is basically what it all boils down to for me:

    The less Protestant/Northern European and more Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, etc. the U.S. becomes, the less industrious and rich it will be…

    http://www.unz.com/article/two-cheers-for-trump-advisor-mike-anton-he-has-the-right-enemies/#comment-1774065

    There’s something about those Nordic countries.
    [...]
    The following ranking of the Bloomberg Innovation Index is from 2015, and countries rise or fall within the ranking from year to year, but the dominance of the historically majority Protestant nations with Northern European-derived populations in the Top 20 is very consistent
    [...]
    So I think it’s safe to say that Protestantism is the dominant religious expression of the Anglo-Germanic peoples, and only the Anglo-Germanic peoples. And, getting back to the original northern rebellion against southern corruption, the Anglo-Germanic nations remain the gold standard in honesty and transparency.

    http://www.unz.com/article/two-cheers-for-trump-advisor-mike-anton-he-has-the-right-enemies/#comment-1772339

    Merton thesis

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merton_thesis

    Merton focuses on English Puritanism and German Pietism as being responsible for the development of the scientific revolution of the 17th and 18th centuries. He explains that the connection between religious affiliation and interest in science is a result of a significant synergy between the ascetic Protestant values and those of modern science.[5] Protestant values encouraged scientific research by allowing science to identify God’s influence on the world and thus providing religious justification for scientific research.[1]
    [...]
    Instead, modern (white) Protestants and Jews had a high degree of “intellectual autonomy” that facilitated scientific and technical advance.[10] By contrast, Lenski pointed out, Catholics developed an intellectual orientation which valued “obedience” to the teachings of their church above intellectual autonomy, which made them less inclined to enter scientific careers. Catholic sociologists[11][12] had come to the same conclusions.[13]
    [...]
    Lenski traced these differences back to the Reformation and the Catholic church’s reaction to it. In Lenski’s view, the Reformation encouraged intellectual autonomy among Protestants, in particular the Anabaptists, Puritans, Pietists, Methodists, and Presbyterians. In the Middle Ages, there had been tendencies toward intellectual autonomy, as exemplified in men like Erasmus. But after the Reformation, the Catholic leaders increasingly identified these tendencies with Protestantism and heresy and demanded that Catholics be obedient and faithful to ecclesiastical discipline.

    A good[/grinding] student [most likely not a WASP/Protestant] might even be more than a bit of a follower, a conformist, standing ready to give satisfaction to the powers that be so that one can proceed to the next good school, taking another step up the ladder of meritocracy.

    http://www.unz.com/forum/white-students-unfair-advantage-in-admissions/#comment-1748458

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    A good[/grinding] student [most likely not a WASP/Protestant] might even be more than a bit of a follower, a conformist, standing ready to give satisfaction to the powers that be so that one can proceed to the next good school, taking another step up the ladder of meritocracy.
     
    This doesn't change that without objective standards, the other solution is - and we did see - is basically a form of clannish nepotism. And that results more or less in corruption, taken to its natural extremes. Quoting others endlessly doesn't change that; most of the more clannish societies do indeed show higher levels of corruption and this was even true of the more clannish sections of America.

    Jack D has noted that objective standards were indeed used elsewhere with no great loss; perhaps one of the oddities of your argument is that you are promoting both essentially clannish behavior with nativist arguments and yet also promote that "perhaps a genetic or evolutionary reason for the kind of pathological altruism found in Northern Europe."

    You can't ultimately have both. You either have "pathological altruism" which results in rule by law and objective standards, which by definition can be "gamed." Or you have much more kinship based altruism and restrictions, which means that eventually greater or lesser form of nepotism will be accepted - becaused kinship based systems are by definition, some form of nepotism.

    Are you trying to say that a society will become more competitive, by adhering to standards which are by definition, less competitive?

    The North Korea argument is relevant. You can certainly have your country in any way you want, because you want a certain culture. But to also argue that's going to be overall competitive from a merit standpoint does not logically follow, at all - you can reject meritocracy, but it won't result in greater merit. You can reject reality, but you can't reject the consequences of rejecting reality.

    Honestly, I would say it largely is captured by Stationary Feast's quote of gamer parlance again:

    “anyone who cares less than you do is a filthy casual; anyone who cares more than you do is a tryhard.”

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Damon Hewitt is arguing for more political power to raise the status of certain racial groups and lower the status for other racial groups. Specifically, he wants power to raise status of his own racial group and lower the status of rival groups. That is despicable.

    I have a related proposal that would actually benefit both underclass blacks and this crowd of outsider alt-right types: Embrace open non-selective admissions at all publicly funded institutions of higher education.

    I am referencing a model similar to what Coursera does: you have to register and create an account but there is no selective admissions process. Many classes would charge some reasonable fee to cover basic costs, but otherwise anyone who is interested in taking a class and competing for certification can do so, regardless of race or nationality or political affiliation.

    Credentialing and scoring is naturally selective. Anyone who buys/registers for a class is allowed to take the tests or submit assignments. But no one is entitled to the score that they want, which is how most current tests work.

    This crowd of fringe alt-right outsiders would love it: The tribal groups that run academia hate this crowd, exclude this crowd, and are quite comfortable with socially kicking down any members of this crowd and this crowd is quite bitter about it. Open admissions would strip that power and authority away from the groups that run academia.

    Underclass blacks would genuinely benefit: They already have less access to take classes at credentialed schools. This would give them and their racial group full access and make the credentialing system much more dynamic and flexible.

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    “anyone who cares less than you do is a filthy casual; anyone who cares more than you do is a tryhard”

    This probably could explain the entire thread.

    Another variant is George Carlin’s “Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?”

    https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgecarl391403.html

    Still another variant is that intelligence is key up until my IQ, but irrelevant beyond that (see IQ threshold theory ; ).

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    Nah, I'm going to right into an oven once they win and make greater discoveries about the melting point of subhuman flesh :D

    That’s funny Dan.

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  • @George
    don’t you think that the english part being “really easy”

    You talking to me? This is the Stuy High and others test page.
    http://schools.nyc.gov/accountability/resources/testing/shsat.htm

    The English test is not easy, it is actually the math section that is too easy.

    When I was there in the 70s, for the most part, the Asians could speak English just fine. Maybe not brilliant, but fine.

    Thanks for the informative link. I did not see a quantification of English/math ease there. Here are some more links.

    Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialized_High_Schools_Admissions_Test
    I see that aligns with ER’s earlier comment. From wiki:

    A November 2005, a New York Times article found that students scoring in the 90th percentile on both sections would not gain admittance to their first choice schools; meanwhile those scoring in the 99th percentile on one section and the 50th percentile on the other, would.[14] This happens because the final grade and percentile represent the total score and the curve within sections.

    I think the example in the NYT article (reference 14) was even more stunning:

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9500EEDD133EF931A25752C1A9639C8B63&legacy=true

    Last year, for instance, a student with a 99 percentile score in math and 49 percentile in verbal would have been admitted to Stuyvesant High School — the most coveted specialized school — but a student with a 97 in math and 92 in verbal would not.

    That certainly does seem unreasonable to me. But, I’m assuming there is not an issue with truncating the percentile and they really mean something like 99.99. And reading closer I see the scores were really 291, or 41 questions answered correctly vs. 369/50 so my assumption might be violated (that’s a 26% increase in score and 22% difference in raw score!).

    This link has some good information on SHSAT scoring details: http://testprepshsat.com/shsat-strategy/
    including 2006 verbal/math frequency distributions! Which are quite different from each other. The verbal test has a much fatter right tail.

    Looking at the math distribution it looks like a perfect score is better than 99.9%. I find it defensible to select for talent that uncommon and find the NYT characterization of that as 99% misleading. For perspective, per https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/SATIQ.aspx the IQs matching those percentiles are 146 and 135 (about 0.75SD difference). 97% is 128 so the difference between 99.9% and 99% is actually larger in an ability sense than the difference between 99% and 97%.

    Note that the SHSAT is currently being redone so all of this information will be obsolete soon. I guess one of the ways we “close gaps” is to ensure frequent enough change that nobody can get a handle on what is going on and/or make comparisons across time (e.g. the SAT).

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    • Replies: @George
    The problem with your perspective is it is not based on how the actual NYC public High School system works. When I applied for HSs in the 70's, which was a long time agao during a financial crisis so Stuy High might be better now, Hunter was the most selective school, and in terms of an academic program the most innovative. Hunter was connected with CCNY a top tier university system so there was some quality control. Stuyvesant was run by and for the NYC board of education. As long as Stuy High was better than other regular High Schools, they accomplished their mission.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_College_High_School
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_R._Murrow_High_School#Notable_alumni

    So this stuff about Stuyvesant being the most coveted blah blah blah, is mostly invented. I suspect they might like talking about Stuyvesant because the more fluid, Ivy league like, admissions standards at Hunter could be altered to be more 'affirmative' for minorities, and the educrats would hate that.

    If you look at the math part, Stuyvesant claims to be a math school, it is actually not very advanced. For example, you have to have fractions and decimals down pat including factions made up of fractions and decimals. So? Is it really that much to ask for a perfect grade on a what is a less than high school level test, without any tricky IQ test type questions. The SHSAT math is straight forward questions that you are expected to get right. Which is to say it is not at the level people imagine it to be. The hard part is plowing through a few hours of a stultifying test.

    When I applied to High Schools I applied to Hunter, Murrow (local, about as good, alternative to Hunter), and Stuyvesant. I was accepted into only Stuyvesant along with a couple of other kids, none of whom were accepted at Hunter or Murrow. That is a hint about how the system works.
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  • @Twinkie

    I think the gap between that athlete and me is much larger than the gap between him and a major leaguer.
     
    Oh, yes.

    In fact, at the highest level of just about any competitive athletics, the gap is so small that just a little bit of "relaxation" can take a champion from crushing dominance to a humiliating defeat. I see that in the fight game all the time. That's why it's hard to stay on top - because success, fame, and having money makes champions soft and make them easier targets for the up-and-comers (see Rocky III for a cinematic treatment of this phenomenon). It really takes a special athlete, with the accompanying, unique mentality, to "stay hungry" and be able to kill himself physicially and mentally every day to remain sharp and at the top of his game.

    It also helps to be born with an insane level of competitiveness. – the kind that makes you treat every game like it’s the Super Bowl, because you HATE HATE HATE to lose. See Brady, Tom, etc.

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  • @FKA Max

    Incidentally, I asked my Millenial-era wife, of no Asian culture or ethnicity whatsoever, what she thought of this and she replied with the gamer’s parlance of [they should] git gud!
     
    If I remember correctly, you mentioned in one of your earlier comments that your wife is French-Canadian, right?

    If this indeed is the case, I assume, that she is Roman-Catholic, right?

    If she is not Roman-Catholic, please disregard the following:

    Roman-Catholics generally are not known to be great lovers, defenders, and protectors of historically and traditionally WASP (and other Northern European-Protestant) cultures and countries, so she might not be the ideal person to ask for advice and feedback on this particular topic:

    Canada is rapidly becoming a Catholic nation because of this policy, and northern New England is being transformed by the Catholic overflow from Canada.
    French Catholic Canada is winning what the French Canadians call la revanche des herceaux, the revenge of the cradles.
    [...]
    Well, if you read their papers, where they point out Boston, that that’s what had happened in Boston in Massachusetts. They had simply out-bred the Protestants and they’re — they — in Boston in Massachusetts they have control.
    [...]
    James Michael Curley, a four-time mayor of Boston, used wasteful redistribution to his poor Irish constituents and incendiary rhetoric to encourage richer citizens to emigrate from Boston, thereby shaping the electorate in his favor. As a consequence, Boston stagnated, but Curley kept winning elections.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/article/the-reality-of-red-subversion/#comment-1699584

    Let me emphasize here that the restrictionists of Congress do not claim that the "Nordic" race, or even the Anglo-Saxon race, is the best race in the world. Let us concede, in all fairness that the Czech is a more sturdy laborer … that the Jew is the best businessman in the world, and that the Italian has … a spiritual exaltation and an artistic creative sense which the Nordic rarely attains. Nordics need not be vain about their own qualifications. It well behooves them to be humble.

    What we do claim is that the northern European and particularly Anglo-Saxons made this country. Oh, yes; the others helped. But … [t]hey came to this country because it was already made as an Anglo-Saxon commonwealth. They added to it, they often enriched it, but they did not make it, and they have not yet greatly changed it.

    We are determined that they shall not … It is a good country. It suits us. And what we assert is that we are not going to surrender it to somebody else or allow other people, no matter what their merits, to make it something different. If there is any changing to be done, we will do it ourselves."[5] -Cong. Rec., April 8, 1924, 5922
     
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_N._Vaile

    She’s not Catholic herself, but accepts a lot of their mores; she comes from a family of over ten children, and has been insisting that we have at least half of that, for example. Her ancestry is obviously Catholic: she’s descended largely – over 90% – from the original French settlement in Quebec with a slight admixture of Irish descent from one of the settlers that went to Canada instead of the US during the famine years.

    That said, I’ve never heard of her say anything negative about WASPs and she identifies her culture as basically American, with a lesser emphasis on French. And knowing several others, I’ll say that the culture of meritocracy is indeed the modern culture; the other assumption of a more clannish culture is always avoided since it ultimately runs up against the notion of the rule of law, and nepotism becomes even more common. It naturally lends after all, that if you favor your subgroup over other subgroups, that you’ll favor your family over other families, and so on.

    Most people would see that as corruption, and lead to enough inefficiencies that its not widely advocated. Frankly, its not far from the argument used by North Korea and we all now how successful that country is. You could easily argue that it doesn’t matter so as long as that is what you desire, and that’s perfectly fine.

    At any rate, you’ve repeated the nativist argument a few times. I understand it and I’ve answered it several times: that’s fine, but if it is not stated directly but instead hidden in other smoke and mirrors, its essentially hypocrisy. Finally, I’ve never been in support of unlimited immigration, and rate does matter.

    But you’re correct: I have a more Social Darwainian bent as does my wife. Social Darwainism, I should note, has Anglo origins as well e.g. Herbert Spencer. and as you noted, isn’t even that traditional to some aspects of Chinese culture. But that’s the way of modernity, so ultimately what you’re advocating is much less a pushback against foreign customs as it is a pushback against potentially cruel, but modern customs.

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    • Replies: @FKA Max

    But that’s the way of modernity, so ultimately what you’re advocating is much less a pushback against foreign customs as it is a pushback against potentially cruel, but modern customs.
     
    No. I am basically saying what commenter Autochthon said to you before:

    Asians can live in Asia and go to Asian schools; Americans will live in America and attend American schools.

    Everybody wins. Asians can work hard and be rank[]ed all they want in Asia;
     

    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1810086

    that’s fine, but if it is not stated directly but instead hidden in other smoke and mirrors, its essentially hypocrisy.
     
    I understand your argument and frustration, but maybe instead of interpreting it as ``hypocrisy(/malice),'' try to understand it as something more akin to ``misguided/pathological'' politeness, another version/expression of political correctness. They don't want to offend, but are realizing, that something went terribly awry, but they are not quite sure yet how to remedy and handle the problem, especially without being labeled as ``racists,'' etc. by the usual suspects (SJWs, Tiger Daughters, etc.):

    Are Tiger Daughters Taking Over the SJW Racket?

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/are-tiger-daughters-taking-over-the-sjw-racket/

    SAT Scandal: The Global Tong War Over Test Scores

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/sat-scandal/


    One of my concerns over the last decade is that the high end testing systems in the U.S. are falling apart under the onslaught of millions of Tiger Mothers and their progeny.
     

    Seriously, if you can get your followers to score higher on the gatekeeper tests, they may become the ruling class of the future—a lesson that American conservatives might ponder. In general, American conservatives have felt that it wouldn’t be sporting for them to think in any organized fashioned about how to game tests such as the SAT. But the older civilizations have little patience for such boyish innocence.

    … typical, pathological WASP/Northern European altruism/idealism at its finest/worst.
     

    - http://www.unz.com/isteve/he-who-controls-test-prep-controls-the-future/#comment-1512545

    In the first hour, Kevin outlines his recent work, which explores theories of a genetic basis for altruism and the lack of ethnic awareness or kinship oriented nepotism. He explains recent scientific studies that are finding there is perhaps a genetic or evolutionary reason for the kind of pathological altruism found in Northern Europe.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/article/two-cheers-for-trump-advisor-mike-anton-he-has-the-right-enemies/#comment-1771264

    We previously briefly discussed the connection between Northern European/Protestant peoples and innovativeness (and science in general) with each other, and this is basically what it all boils down to for me:


    The less Protestant/Northern European and more Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, etc. the U.S. becomes, the less industrious and rich it will be…
     
    - http://www.unz.com/article/two-cheers-for-trump-advisor-mike-anton-he-has-the-right-enemies/#comment-1774065

    There’s something about those Nordic countries.
    [...]
    The following ranking of the Bloomberg Innovation Index is from 2015, and countries rise or fall within the ranking from year to year, but the dominance of the historically majority Protestant nations with Northern European-derived populations in the Top 20 is very consistent
    [...]
    So I think it’s safe to say that Protestantism is the dominant religious expression of the Anglo-Germanic peoples, and only the Anglo-Germanic peoples. And, getting back to the original northern rebellion against southern corruption, the Anglo-Germanic nations remain the gold standard in honesty and transparency.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/article/two-cheers-for-trump-advisor-mike-anton-he-has-the-right-enemies/#comment-1772339

    Merton thesis

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merton_thesis

    Merton focuses on English Puritanism and German Pietism as being responsible for the development of the scientific revolution of the 17th and 18th centuries. He explains that the connection between religious affiliation and interest in science is a result of a significant synergy between the ascetic Protestant values and those of modern science.[5] Protestant values encouraged scientific research by allowing science to identify God's influence on the world and thus providing religious justification for scientific research.[1]
    [...]
    Instead, modern (white) Protestants and Jews had a high degree of "intellectual autonomy" that facilitated scientific and technical advance.[10] By contrast, Lenski pointed out, Catholics developed an intellectual orientation which valued "obedience" to the teachings of their church above intellectual autonomy, which made them less inclined to enter scientific careers. Catholic sociologists[11][12] had come to the same conclusions.[13]
    [...]
    Lenski traced these differences back to the Reformation and the Catholic church's reaction to it. In Lenski's view, the Reformation encouraged intellectual autonomy among Protestants, in particular the Anabaptists, Puritans, Pietists, Methodists, and Presbyterians. In the Middle Ages, there had been tendencies toward intellectual autonomy, as exemplified in men like Erasmus. But after the Reformation, the Catholic leaders increasingly identified these tendencies with Protestantism and heresy and demanded that Catholics be obedient and faithful to ecclesiastical discipline.
     


    A good[/grinding] student [most likely not a WASP/Protestant] might even be more than a bit of a follower, a conformist, standing ready to give satisfaction to the powers that be so that one can proceed to the next good school, taking another step up the ladder of meritocracy.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/forum/white-students-unfair-advantage-in-admissions/#comment-1748458
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  • @Twinkie

    Then again, is your local public school likely to teach, or accidentally confer, these values?
     
    I homeschool, and my oldest is headed to a Catholic military school. At my household, we begin every morning with a Pledge of Allegiance.

    Parents are the first and most important teachers of their children. I have inculcated my children in what I believe in and hold dear - God, country, community, and family.

    You don’t feel that the pledge is a blaspheme? I have read arguments over this, and I believe pledging allegiance to the flag is most likely an intentional distancing from God and Christianity. The American flag, as the argument goes, is a false idol, and the pledge is worship.

    Your world and your habits are brought to you by the same Fremason/Satanists that run the world’s system of culture, identity, and economics, and have for over 150 years.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/22268/the_blasphemy_of_flag_worship

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  • @Stationary Feast

    git gud
     
    Ah, gamer parlance!

    The following also seems apropos: "anyone who cares less than you do is a filthy casual; anyone who cares more than you do is a tryhard."

    At any rate, what seems to be at issue is the population of asians whose abilities and in-class interestingness are misoverestimated by usual college admissions techniques. None of my asian friends were, or are, boring grinds, but I can imagine that quite a few are (at least while they're being shoved into it by their parents).

    “anyone who cares less than you do is a filthy casual; anyone who cares more than you do is a tryhard”

    This probably could explain the entire thread.

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    • Replies: @res
    Another variant is George Carlin's "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"
    https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgecarl391403.html

    Still another variant is that intelligence is key up until my IQ, but irrelevant beyond that (see IQ threshold theory ; ).
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  • @Twinkie
    I don't speak Seinfeld, so you will have to translate. Bonus points if you could do an interpretative dance version. Self-record and post online, why don't ya?

    Translate a laugh?!?

    Well it’s generally a spontaneous human expression of joy that follows what one feels is a humorous event.

    I knew Stuyvesant / Ivy League guys were taciturn, but you learn something every day.

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  • @SPMoore8
    The "white people" who have run the show in the US for 200+ years were able to do it because of assimilation. That is, they absorbed Germans, Irish, Italians, Jews (the four largest groups) and also Slavs and Scandinavians (and many other European groups) and made them all "Americans". And I am living testimony to this, since my family has been marrying out in this country for over 200 years (and yes I have all of Europe covered).

    On the other hand we have failed to assimilate our African sourced population, and while I expect we will eventually absorb our Latino, Muslim/Arab, East Asian, and South Asian populations it will be a lot harder to do so if they keep streaming into the country unchecked and if each of these groups seeks to establish their own group privileges.

    The “white people” who have run the show in the US for 200+ years were able to do it because of assimilation. That is, they absorbed Germans, Irish, Italians, Jews (the four largest groups) and also Slavs and Scandinavians (and many other European groups) and made them all “Americans”.

    Sure, but the cultural/genetic distances between these various ethnic groups of whites are at least an order of magnitude less than the distances between any of them are to the other continental races. Sufficiently large quantitative differences can produce very tangible and easily categorizable qualitative differences.

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  • @dcite

    In fact, Americans (and I mean Americans, not whites) are somewhat contemptuous of those who get good grades or high test scores because of endless hard work.
     
    They are? As Thomas Edison said, invention is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
    That wasn't true for Tesla though, so there are exceptions.

    Thomas Edison was a charlatan, promoter, and opportunist who took the work of others as his own. Edison screwed Tesla out of a promised “bonus” after Tesla had worked for him for a year, by stating that “he was just joking”.
    Edison’s only REAL accomplishment, properly attributed to him, was creating the first modern-day research laboratory. All of his other “inventions” were actually invented by others, all who never received credit. Edison personally claimed that he invented all of his employees works.
    Tesla’s main “fault” was that he was too altruistic, giving away his true inventions “to benefit all of mankind”. He saved Westinghouse by revoking his contracts for royalties on polyphase electric motors. Tesla was too much of a “nice guy”. He could have been a millionaire, but that was not his nature. He died in obscurity…
    Tesla did more to uplift humanity than Edison ever could…the praise heaped on Edison, to this day, is misplaced…

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    I'll agree that while a college degree is useful, the entire Ivy League university humping isn't evident to me as being all that valuable, especially once a few years of experience are down the line. There's a body of work in previous job experience which shows more than an overpriced degree versus a community college degree.

    Really, companies shouldn't for purely business reasons. The number of social justice classes that one has been able to get through tells you next to nothing about the candidate's job capabilities.

    HR might be impressed by that, and in that sense, they might be a gatekeeper. In the companies I've been in, including a few Forbes 100 ones, though, the management only vaguely gives any credit to HR opinion, which is usually quite useless.

    You make a very good point. Enlightened companies will look beyond the “college degree”. However, HR departments, quite often control hiring decisions, especially in large companies…it is necessary to get past HR and contact the principles directly, which is sometimes difficult to do.
    Regards,

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  • @Marina
    The impression I get is that the purpose of the Ivies is to try and pick the next generation's elite while maintaining certain kinds of large university amenities. This is different from the most talented, intelligent, high scoring or even well-rounded mix of interesting American young people. This is why they ask where your parents went to college and where they work, even though this should be irrelevant.

    At my prep school, probably half the HYP admissions were for students who met the needs of the school at that specific time. I knew someone who got into Harvard because she played the right position in the right team sport and their current player in that position was graduating. She had good but not spectacular grades, but basically, she got lucky. If she'd been six months younger and a grade lower in school and otherwise identical, she never would have gotten in. I know someone who got into an Ivy because the music program needed a certain instrumentalist and he had good grades and was excellent at that instrument. Again, bright and talented and he probably had no problem doing well in the coursework, but he was far from the brightest, most interesting or well rounded kid that year.

    Then there will always be a sport for the Obama/Clinton/Bush/Trump children and there will probably always be slots for the children of foreign (including Asian) leaders and royals. Same thing for the kids of business and some entertainment elites. Whites from outside the coasts and especially outside cities will be very underrepresented. Participating in ROTC or 4H will hurt you in admissions because they aren't elite. Deng Xiaopeng's kid is going to get into Harvard over the brightest, most interesting, well rounded Asian American who is a three sport varsity athlete and academic superstar, but then Chelsea Clinton would get in over the white version of this kid too.

    Then there are a few slots for the genuine geniuses: the 17 year old who is obviously a national superstar in field X or whatever. Then there are the AA admits. The legacies or rich kids that got a thumb on the scale. At the end of the day, there are a relatively few spots going to kids who are genuinely interesting and talented and nothing else.

    “Participating in ROTC or 4H will hurt you in admissions because they aren’t elite.”

    For which read: Participating in ROTC or 4H will hurt you in admissions because they mean you are a potential leader of a future redneck rebellion. (Ironically, my left wing doctor cousin as a young kid was in 4-H in an inner ring suburb of Chicago; it was a leftover from when this suburb was a semi-rural exurb.

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  • @Jason Liu
    So what's discriminatory about any of this?

    This the part when some asshole comes out and claims the left isn't about equal outcomes, just equal opportunities, except all unequal outcomes are caused by unequal opportunities and nothing else.

    Holistic review has always been code for "egalitarian bullshit". It should be rejected regardless of the school's racial makeup.

    Holistic review also would be a lot of real work for the public school bureaucracy who are not to be confused with the staff at Harvard.

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  • @education realist
    George--don't you think that the english part being "really easy" and yet still advantaging those who score in the 45th percentile is a problem?

    Res--I was talking about the NY Test, were you? It has a different scoring system. I don't think the same problem occurs in the SAT (where they don't always total anyway).

    As for my resenting anyone: please. I love teaching. I loved tutoring, which was less work for a reasonable amount of money. And before that, I enjoyed working in tech, where, like tutoring, I averaged about 25 hours a week on average for a decade or more. I'm not ambitious. I like independence. And I live in one of the most expensive places on earth despite my aversion to long hours and money obsession.

    Twinkie's just mad because I'm not impressed with his resume. He keeps hoping that if he writes 10,000 words to me for every one I mention of his, people will think he's the better guy.

    don’t you think that the english part being “really easy”

    You talking to me? This is the Stuy High and others test page.

    http://schools.nyc.gov/accountability/resources/testing/shsat.htm

    The English test is not easy, it is actually the math section that is too easy.

    When I was there in the 70s, for the most part, the Asians could speak English just fine. Maybe not brilliant, but fine.

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    • Replies: @res
    Thanks for the informative link. I did not see a quantification of English/math ease there. Here are some more links.

    Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialized_High_Schools_Admissions_Test
    I see that aligns with ER's earlier comment. From wiki:

    A November 2005, a New York Times article found that students scoring in the 90th percentile on both sections would not gain admittance to their first choice schools; meanwhile those scoring in the 99th percentile on one section and the 50th percentile on the other, would.[14] This happens because the final grade and percentile represent the total score and the curve within sections.
     
    I think the example in the NYT article (reference 14) was even more stunning:
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9500EEDD133EF931A25752C1A9639C8B63&legacy=true

    Last year, for instance, a student with a 99 percentile score in math and 49 percentile in verbal would have been admitted to Stuyvesant High School -- the most coveted specialized school -- but a student with a 97 in math and 92 in verbal would not.
     
    That certainly does seem unreasonable to me. But, I'm assuming there is not an issue with truncating the percentile and they really mean something like 99.99. And reading closer I see the scores were really 291, or 41 questions answered correctly vs. 369/50 so my assumption might be violated (that's a 26% increase in score and 22% difference in raw score!).

    This link has some good information on SHSAT scoring details: http://testprepshsat.com/shsat-strategy/
    including 2006 verbal/math frequency distributions! Which are quite different from each other. The verbal test has a much fatter right tail.

    Looking at the math distribution it looks like a perfect score is better than 99.9%. I find it defensible to select for talent that uncommon and find the NYT characterization of that as 99% misleading. For perspective, per https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/SATIQ.aspx the IQs matching those percentiles are 146 and 135 (about 0.75SD difference). 97% is 128 so the difference between 99.9% and 99% is actually larger in an ability sense than the difference between 99% and 97%.

    Note that the SHSAT is currently being redone so all of this information will be obsolete soon. I guess one of the ways we "close gaps" is to ensure frequent enough change that nobody can get a handle on what is going on and/or make comparisons across time (e.g. the SAT).
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  • @Johnny B.
    I'm starting to think education realist might be a brotha. There's something very soulful about his aggression and butthurt. Probably lives in California somewhere.

    I’m starting to think education realist might be a brotha.

    I don’t know about that, but she occasionally repeats the assertion that IQ and standardized tests under-predict black cognitive ability, which is completely unsupported by evidence.

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  • @Stationary Feast

    And “work[ing] math problems without any genuine understanding…” Seriously? Are you still pushing that fantasy?
     
    I've done that plenty of times in math class before I finally internalized why the algorithms I perform work. If I were better at memorizing things I'd probably be able to do even more math that I don't really understand.

    I wouldn't be surprised if there are students out there who overrely on their memorization abilities to see them through math classes. Students who are capable of performing grade n math, but only understand grade n-2 math, say.

    That works up to a point.

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  • @Stationary Feast

    4. While I am glad that public schools such as Stuyvesant exists where smart Asian and white pupils in high black-Hispanic population areas can study in peace, I would never send my own children to one like it. It doesn’t teach the love of what is sacred and holy. It doesn’t teach courage, sacrifice, and camaraderie. It doesn’t teach patriotism.
     
    Then again, is your local public school likely to teach, or accidentally confer, these values?

    Then again, is your local public school likely to teach, or accidentally confer, these values?

    I homeschool, and my oldest is headed to a Catholic military school. At my household, we begin every morning with a Pledge of Allegiance.

    Parents are the first and most important teachers of their children. I have inculcated my children in what I believe in and hold dear – God, country, community, and family.

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    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @Truth
    You don't feel that the pledge is a blaspheme? I have read arguments over this, and I believe pledging allegiance to the flag is most likely an intentional distancing from God and Christianity. The American flag, as the argument goes, is a false idol, and the pledge is worship.

    Your world and your habits are brought to you by the same Fremason/Satanists that run the world's system of culture, identity, and economics, and have for over 150 years.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/22268/the_blasphemy_of_flag_worship
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