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    There has been much talk here about Chanda Chisala's article "The IQ gap is no longer a black and white issue." Much of the article focuses on the Igbo (known also as Ibo), a people who live in the Niger Delta and "are well known to be high academic achievers within Nigeria." In the United...
  • @Ginger Bread Man
    It seems like some Igbos want to leave Nigeria and form their own country. Also, they view their conationals with disdain: http://www.vanguardngr.com/2015/12/biafra-surprises-from-the-north/

    “It seems like some Igbos want to leave Nigeria and form their own country…”

    Ya think? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_Civil_War

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  • It seems like some Igbos want to leave Nigeria and form their own country. Also, they view their conationals with disdain: http://www.vanguardngr.com/2015/12/biafra-surprises-from-the-north/

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    • Replies: @Gandydancer
    "It seems like some Igbos want to leave Nigeria and form their own country..."

    Ya think? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_Civil_War
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  • @candid_observer
    In an earlier comment, I had brought up the performance of blacks in England on the test for medical students, with the following summary result:

    UK White mean – 2737.96 with a standard deviation of 268.15
    UK Black mean – 2430.79
     
    It is instructive to compare that result to the similar results for whites vs blacks in the US on the MCAT, the comparable test for potential medical students in the US. Here the summary result is:

    US White mean -- 29.3 with overall SD of 5.5
    US Black mean -- 22.5

    In summary comparison, blacks in the UK perform 1.15 SD below whites, and blacks in the US perform 1.27 SD below whites.

    So despite the fact that the blacks in the UK would appear to be almost entirely composed of higher achieving groups from Africa and the Caribbean, there is only a trivial difference in their performance at this very high level.

    Who said Afro-Caribbeans in the UK were from a “high achieving group” background. They were not. The people who were brought after WWII to the UK were for low level work.

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  • @raph
    @dipwill, what are you trying to prove exactly by underrating the authenticity of the exceptional arts of igbo-ukwu? your responses are subtly biased.

    I did not disparage the artistic achievements of Igbo-Ukwu in any way. The closest I came to that was remarking that art of this quality on the part of the Igbo did not extend outside of Igbo-Ukwu, and that the Yoruba (and possibly Bini) had advanced, pre-colonial art in multiple cities.

    I might have come off as disparaging with what I have said about Igbo history, but I didn’t mean it to be that way. I do think it’s most likely the case the Igbo are more intelligent than other Nigerians, but their history does not support the idea their social selection functioned in this way, or that they really are significantly more intelligent.

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  • @dipwill, what are you trying to prove exactly by underrating the authenticity of the exceptional arts of igbo-ukwu? your responses are subtly biased.

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    • Replies: @Dipwill
    I did not disparage the artistic achievements of Igbo-Ukwu in any way. The closest I came to that was remarking that art of this quality on the part of the Igbo did not extend outside of Igbo-Ukwu, and that the Yoruba (and possibly Bini) had advanced, pre-colonial art in multiple cities.

    I might have come off as disparaging with what I have said about Igbo history, but I didn't mean it to be that way. I do think it's most likely the case the Igbo are more intelligent than other Nigerians, but their history does not support the idea their social selection functioned in this way, or that they really are significantly more intelligent.
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  • @Dr James Thompson
    Currently one cannot rely on the examples given in Chisala's article.
    http://drjamesthompson.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/chanda-chisala-african-hereditarian.html

    Just visited your site, kudos, Dr Thompson, for the long analysis!

    Panda had guessed sth fishy about Chanda Chisala’s wild claims actually at the first glance.

    So it turns out that almost the entire sample detail is “mystically” missing? haha, talk about the voodoo science…

    The chance that Igbo average beat Chinese average in the UK 2007 GCSE was about as a close as that the Sun rose from the West, as if test-loving Chinese somehow collectively have had diarrhea on the test date. It would have required some powerful divine interventions. ROFL

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  • @Truth
    Pete, you have some (mediocre) minds spinning unsure of which way to do damage control with this one.

    "So what do I believe? that all blacks are stupid, or that this ONE SMALL GROUP of blacks isn't stupid?"

    "Which argument makes white people seem smarter?!?!?!" "Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh..."

    Willfully misunderstanding a theory in order to be offended by it is a pretty silly way to argue.

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  • Currently one cannot rely on the examples given in Chisala’s article.

    http://drjamesthompson.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/chanda-chisala-african-hereditarian.html

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    Just visited your site, kudos, Dr Thompson, for the long analysis!

    Panda had guessed sth fishy about Chanda Chisala's wild claims actually at the first glance.

    So it turns out that almost the entire sample detail is "mystically" missing? haha, talk about the voodoo science...

    The chance that Igbo average beat Chinese average in the UK 2007 GCSE was about as a close as that the Sun rose from the West, as if test-loving Chinese somehow collectively have had diarrhea on the test date. It would have required some powerful divine interventions. ROFL
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  • The Tukulor of Senegal, for instance, were originally called the “two colors” by European travellers because some of them were light-skinned and others dark-skinned.
    —-
    That doesn’t sound very likely. The “Toucouleur”, as they’re called in french, live between Senegal and Mauritania and in that area there was a medieval kingdom called Tekrur. Given that R and L get mixed up all the time , it’s quite easy to see how Tekrur could have gotten transcribed into toucouleur in french.
    The toucouleur live right on the border between the black african and the berber world, so one would expect them to be fairly diverse in their color range.

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  • @Jm8
    Don't forget the Nok culture of central Nigeria (Jos Plateau) ca. 1,000 bc-200d, which smelted iron ca. 1,000 bc-200 ad ( one of the earliest iron metallurgy dates in West Af. after the Igbo and also thought now to be indigenous). It is known for its hollow terracotta sculptures.

    http://archive.archaeology.org/1107/features/nok_nigeria_africa_terracotta.html
    https://www.google.com/search?
    q=nok+terracotta&biw=1212&bih=898&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIiLG6yOPZxgIVi1weCh3tFQvu#tbm=isch&q=nok+culture+art

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  • @Dipwill
    "We’re talking about prehistory, and the relevant evidence is necessarily incomplete. It’s a stretch to assume that the Igbo were spending all their time smelting iron before the 9th century."

    That is not what I am saying, but metal smelting seems to be among the few notable achievements/activites on the part of the Igbo for most of their history, and it seems unlikely there was much else going on. To this day, we have found very little urbanization in their region, so I think it is most likely the case their history has been relatively static.

    I am not denying that a millenium would be more than enough- however, you have not built a substantial case for what led to their higher intelligence, or if it is even significantly higher than other Nigerian groups and such.

    "“Inexact” data would be welcome. So far I’ve found no evidence that children from other West African groups perform at a high academic level, at least nothing comparable to what we see among the Igbo."

    You are aware that in the US and Britain, immigrants from africa exhibit a very high level of academic achievement, and this is the case for most groups that do immigrate, and is variously the case in other European countries. Even then, they are altogether very small in number, regardless of country of origin. Nigerian immigrants in the west are overwhelmingly from the south, and after the Igbo, the Yoruba seem to be the second largest. At the same time, the Yoruba and Igbo are among the largest african ethnic groups, numbering over 40 million and 30 million respectively, and compared to other african immigrant groups, are less disproportionate in their achievement. The only clear picture we have of their academic achievement comes from these small immigrant populations, so it is difficult to say if they are significantly above other Nigerians.

    "That was the whole of his argument against natural selection. Greg Cochran felt it would be a waste of time to refute that paper point by point. I can’t help but agree."

    No, I can clearly say that was not his entire argument against natural selection, I have already mentioned multiple other points against it. And you think it's a waste of time to refute the paper point by point? Really? As far as I can tell, that is the only coherent attempt at critiquing NHAI in the decade since it was published, and they have barely expanded directly on the original paper. I have almost never seen them address it, and on the rare occasions they have, it's been very cursory/dismissive, or they focus on Ferguson's environmental approach. I can't help but think they're being unfair (arguably even dishonest) towards a detailed, nearly 40 page critique.

    For what it's worth, we could also talk about how much more intelligent the Ashkenazi are compared to jewish groups- we don't really know, but most of them are very likely above 100, unless you want to believe Lynn's figures which puts them below 100, which ties in with his bizarre ideas about middle easterners. The more accurate Ashkenazi average of 110, and groups like the Sephardim and Mizrahim, who are likely a few or several points and had this advantage for much longer, have never been considered in relation to NHAI.

    "Yes, Elmina is in Ghana, but there was considerable trade between it and the Benin kingdom. My argument was that metallurgy developed at a much later date in the kingdoms of northern and western Nigeria than it did among the Igbo. I also argued that these other metallurgy traditions were strongly influenced by Middle Eastern traditions, whereas the Ibo metallurgy tradition was largely indigenous."

    I think you're stretching the frame of your argument here. You were originally claiming Benin as both a city-state and empire formed due to trade with the Portuguese, then you claimed that they were trading with arabs and berbers by the time the Portuguese arrived, and now you are referring to arab and berber trade with the Akan who traded with Benin. Even then, it is questionable how extensive arab/berber trade with the Akan was in that time, since that region saw little cultural influence from Islam and the ultimate Akan state, Ashanti, did not form until some time after European trade began. It is undeniable that downstream, these areas have been economically influenced by trade (but again, heavy urbanization in the sahel region predates islam) with non-africans, since the region was contacted not long after Islam began, but it begins to stretch things if you talk about economic influence such as this as a major demarcation of local intellectual initiative.

    I am also not denying that european trade heavily influenced Benin, the Yoruba etc. (I posted a link discussing how Benin eventually began manufacturing it's own firearms), but you have been claiming Benin as both a city-state and an empire, along with it's artistic tradition, were formed due to European contact. That is not true, and it is even less true for the Yoruba, as Ile Ife and the art there predates european contact by a few centuries.

    "No, Igbo-Ukwu was occupied continuously up to the period of contact with European traders. We are looking at the same cultural tradition that led to present-day Igbo."

    I have never heard of Igbo-Ukwu being inhabited until European contact, and the art produced there dates some time before European contact. And somewhere along the line, Igbo-Ukwu became abandoned as a city and the art forgotten- it wasn't discovered and excavated until the 20th century. Igbo art produced outside of Igbo-Ukwu and up until modern times has been greatly inferior and hasn't come close to the art at Igbo-Ukwu, so we are not looking at the same cultural tradition. And for what it's worth, I'd forgotten the Yoruba were producing advanced art outside of Ile Ife, such as in the city of Owo, and to a lesser extent Ijebu, distinguishing them from both the Igbo and possibly Edo.

    It would be helpful if you could present evidence that the development of the art at Igbo-Ukwu was unique in comparison to however fragmented they were by then. At the same time, wouldn't this mean that it was a subset, or certain subsets of the Igbo that were responsible for Igbo-Ukwu and it's art? If that's the case, it would seem to make more sense to talk about just part of the Igbo that are notably more intelligent as opposed to the group as a whole. You imply that the Igbo remained fragmented until quite recently, with the name being in a way imposed. So how did these intellectual advantages spread throughout the Igbo if:

    a) They were politically fragmented throughout their history until recently.

    b) By extension, Igbo-Ukwu, possibly the only city ever created by the Igbo with art only found there, was formed without conquest or patronage to the extent other Nigerian groups created their achievements, and was therefore due to a proportionately smaller subset(s) of the Igbo, and not representative of them as a whole.

    "Differences in survival and reproductive success. This was a point I made earlier about the Bengal famine of 1944. Traders perished in far greater numbers because they could not fall back on farming. Conversely, trade can produce wealth to a far greater degree than farming normally does. In a successful trading family, children can marry at a younger age and their life prospects are similarly better."

    I honestly can't say that general picture is unlikely for South Asia, nor do I disagree with most of Clarke's work, which I am greatly familiar. His picture is quite different from NHAI, which hinges more strongly on specific selective pressures.

    "Actually, I think it does. It reflected the need, among hunter-gatherers, to store large quantities of spatio-temporal data. For instance, the location of a herd of game animals, how to get to them and how to get back home, mental simulations over time and space of where and when game animals will be available, etc."

    Your framing of hunter-gatherer behavior (and when you have spoken of this phenomenon) applies only to northern hunter-gatherers, and this has been seen well outside of arctic regions. I got the impression you were referring to something unrelated to g, and if it is g, this would mean northern hunter-gatherers, in addition to having higher IQ's, were very disproportionately skewed towards visuo-spatial and memory abilities. I think it's highly unlikely that being a norther hunter-gatherer would require high intelligence at all, and whatever the case, similarly large brain size (and likely high intelligence) developed in multiple places much further south.

    If we could look at modern hunter-gatherers, australian aborigines and inuits would be illustrative cases. Richard Lynn found both of them have strong memory skills, with aborigines doing better than whites. He ties this in with the featureless landscapes of both their environments requiring the ability to memorize landmarks. While inuits have large brain sizes and likely high IQ's, aborigines have small brains and low IQ's (although I don't think they're at all as low as the figures Lynn gives.) Aborigines likewise have regions of the brain associated with memory that are disproportionately developed (this was noted in early anatomical studies, who drew bizarre associations with orangutan brains). At the same time, early aboriginal skulls are much larger than modern aboriginal ones and comparable to northern skulls, with the early australian environment likely being less demanding than the modern, more desertified ones. The environment that gave this advantage is much more narrow focused than most other hunter-gatherer environments, and I think is arguably the only sort of time you'd see this sort of cognitive profile arise.

    If it is something unrelated to g, I have never heard of any cognitive profile that would result in these kinds of abilities and this brain size and become common in a population yet be unrelated to g. With all of the failed attempts to find multiple intelligences and what other physiological correlates that would require, I don't think it's possible.

    Finally, I don't think the decline has anything to do with metabolic demands, and the idea larger brains require that is dramatically overblown. People with brain sizes equal to or larger than hunter-gatherers are common today- they're people of above average IQ (though not everyone with a high IQ has a larger brain- it could be more complex in other ways). Yet smart people (even geniuses) do not suffer any sort of unique metabolic or dietary demands compared to people with lower IQ's/smaller and or less complex brains, and neither do they have more difficulty thriving. It would also beg asking why the brain size/intelligence advantage wasn't sustained, but eventually selected to become less skewed. A cognitive advantage attained by a certain environment does not require that environment to sustain it, and can be used as the framework for an advantage in other. This is especially true for humans. Though why brain size/intelligence declined, I don't know, but I think it was most likely drift, and hunter-gatherer environments and other simpler ones might be much more prone to drift with intelligence.

    Don’t forget the Nok culture of central Nigeria (Jos Plateau) ca. 1,000 bc-200d, which smelted iron ca. 1,000 bc-200 ad ( one of the earliest iron metallurgy dates in West Af. after the Igbo and also thought now to be indigenous). It is known for its hollow terracotta sculptures.

    http://archive.archaeology.org/1107/features/nok_nigeria_africa_terracotta.html

    https://www.google.com/search?

    q=nok+terracotta&biw=1212&bih=898&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIiLG6yOPZxgIVi1weCh3tFQvu#tbm=isch&q=nok+culture+art

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    • Replies: @Jm8
    correction: Nok iron metallurgy (starting ca 1,000 bc) thought likely indigenous by some; including in the most recent opinion of excavator Peter Breunig

    http://newafricanmagazine.com/nigeria-nok-has-more-wonders-yet-for-the-world/

    https://www.google.com/search?q=nok+terracotta&biw=1212&bih=898&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIiLG6yOPZxgIVi1weCh3tFQvu#tbm=isch&q=nok+culture+art

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  • @Truth
    "A generation" is only 20 years, Bro.

    Try 15-45. In the culture I grew up in, people who had their 1st kid at a young age often had a bunch of kids the last of which was born when the father and mother were middle aged. At least one nephew was older than his uncle. And this was no redneck culture (well maybe a little redneck compared to lakefront Chicago where I live now.)

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  • @Svigor

    They have the highest mean IQs of any Caucasoid population.
     
    I think Episcopalians have them whipped.

    It has been said that Jews earn like Episcopalians and vote like Puerto Ricans. I think since at least 2008 it could be said that Liberal Protestants including Episcopalians vote like Jews and/or Puerto Ricans.

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  • @Hippopotamusdrome

    West Africans of Sierre Leone come out at number 16, higher than white Albania, Bosnia, Chile, Croatia, Turkey, Serbia, or white/”Caucasoid” Iraq, Kuwait, Columbia, Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Algeria
     
    So the Middle East and Ottoman occupied Muslim balkans is "white"? Saudi Arabia and Columbia?

    For all intents and purposes, under American and European racial constructs, they are “white.” Saudi Arabians in the US for example are classified as white. Here is how the US census classifies people from the “Middle East.”

    “White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as “White” or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Arab, Moroccan, or Caucasian. ”
    –US Census- http://quickfacts.census.gov/

    And Europeans in part, drive from migrants from the Middle East in past eras. Re Colombians, Colombian immigrants to the US for the most part classify themselves as “white” (Portes 2007- The New Latin Nation). In Colombia, the self-identification is different, and one census puts Indians mixed with whites as a majority followed by whites. But an actual genetic study by Prof. Emilio Yunis, Dircetor Genetics Department at the National University puts the Columbian population at 65% “white,” with proportions of whiteness varying by region. [Wikipedia - Race and Ethnicity in Columbia-Note 2.] If this is correct, even though someone may say they are “mestizo” on the official government check-box, they may actually have a preponderance of European derived genes.

    Also keep in mind that “Muslim” denotes a religious category not a “racial” one.

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  • Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factory"] says:

    http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2015/07/liberal-cognitive-dissonance-on-south-africa/

    The future of Europe.

    There should a law forcing Liberals to suffer the consequences of their actions.

    They foul it up for others but live in privilege.

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  • @Enrique Cardova
    But here’s my problem with that idea (which always is the problem with claims that, say, a group of sub-Saharan ancestry is at or near the average IQ for some white population)

    It depends on the white population being compared. In Lynn and Vanhaven's national IQ rankings, West Africans of Sierre Leone come out at number 16, higher than white Albania, Bosnia, Chile, Croatia, Turkey, Serbia, or white/"Caucasoid" Iraq, Kuwait, Columbia, Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Algeria and most of the other Arab emirates.

    It also depends on the measuring device. Chisala's data does on fact show the Africans outperforming the white average on several counts, based on the instrument used, or making both relative and absolute gains. The usual objection to this is that the African immigrants were "selected" group- but all immigrants are to some extent a select group, including white Americans who are immigrants to that territory. Furthermore the Africans as Chisala shows labor under some language difficulties- they have no easy road - but yet on those measures still post above the white average. As for whites on the upper end, those at the upper end are themselves a "select" group, typically endowed with better educations, family backgrounds, better nutrition, more exposure to books, more affluence etc than others. So they too are beneficiaries of environmental "selection" and their test results reflect it.

    Chisala's data is also confirmed by other research, While genetics plays a part as all know, so too does environment. Per Nisbett al at 2012:


    We review new findings and new theoretical developments in the field of intelligence. New findings include the following: (a) Heritability of IQ varies significantly by social class. (b) Almost no genetic polymorphisms have been discovered that are consistently associated with variation in IQ in the normal range. (c) Much has been learned about the biological underpinnings of intelligence. (d) “Crystallized” and “fluid” IQ are quite different aspects of intelligence at both the behavioral and biological levels. (e) The importance of the environment for IQ is established by the 12-point to 18-point increase in IQ when children are adopted from working-class to middle-class homes. (f) Even when improvements in IQ produced by the most effective early childhood interventions fail to persist, there can be very marked effects on academic achievement and life outcomes. (g) In most developed countries studied, gains on IQ tests have continued, and they are beginning in the developing world. (h) Sex differences in aspects of intelligence are due partly to identifiable biological factors and partly to socialization factors. (i) The IQ gap between Blacks and Whites has been reduced by 0.33 SD in recent years.

    --Intelligence: new findings and theoretical developments.(Author abstract)(Report)
    The American psychologist [0003-066X] yr:2012 vol:67 iss:2 pg:130
     

    West Africans of Sierre Leone come out at number 16, higher than white Albania, Bosnia, Chile, Croatia, Turkey, Serbia, or white/”Caucasoid” Iraq, Kuwait, Columbia, Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Algeria

    So the Middle East and Ottoman occupied Muslim balkans is “white”? Saudi Arabia and Columbia?

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    • Replies: @Enrique Cardova
    For all intents and purposes, under American and European racial constructs, they are "white." Saudi Arabians in the US for example are classified as white. Here is how the US census classifies people from the "Middle East."

    "White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Arab, Moroccan, or Caucasian. "
    --US Census- http://quickfacts.census.gov/
     
    And Europeans in part, drive from migrants from the Middle East in past eras. Re Colombians, Colombian immigrants to the US for the most part classify themselves as "white" (Portes 2007- The New Latin Nation). In Colombia, the self-identification is different, and one census puts Indians mixed with whites as a majority followed by whites. But an actual genetic study by Prof. Emilio Yunis, Dircetor Genetics Department at the National University puts the Columbian population at 65% "white," with proportions of whiteness varying by region. [Wikipedia - Race and Ethnicity in Columbia-Note 2.] If this is correct, even though someone may say they are "mestizo" on the official government check-box, they may actually have a preponderance of European derived genes.

    Also keep in mind that "Muslim" denotes a religious category not a "racial" one.
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  • @Enrique Cardova
    That’s part of the reason. The need to adapt to cold and a yearly cycle led to an early “industrial revolution” (manufacture of tailored clothing and fine needles, deep storage pits for refrigeration, untended traps and snares, etc.). These adaptations predisposed northern Eurasians to move into new cultural environments, farther south, that would become the first civilizations.
    This is a bit overstated. As McBreaty and Brooks 2000 show, the people who initiated any such "revolution" were Africans, that expanded in the more favorable environments of Eurasia in different eras. And sophisticated large scale civilizations first expand to real heights in the tropical and sub-tropical zone, such as the dynasties that sprang from the south in Egypt- an area of the country that is in the tropical zone.


    .
    It was sufficient for use in trade and even court cases. High culture? No, but high culture is not necessarily a product of a high mean IQ. It’s a product of centralized states that can recruit talented people from a large territory, or even from farther beyond.

    Indeed, the script was in place before Arabs or Islam appeared. Use in Igbo trading operations would not be an indicator of Igbo exceptionalism exactly but of adaptability. Likewise even if the advanced metalwork was developed elsewhere in the region, the Igbo were already making use of it. Mayhaps it could be argued that their decentralized, fragmented polities did not allow a concentration of resources and talent sufficient to build larger state structures, or more rapid transmission of new tech and knowledge over a huge area, like one of the larger empires.

    But what looks like a disadvantage- fragmentation and small scale - concealed a ferment embedded in Igbo culture. In fact as noted above, even their religion had some elements similar to, and conducive to taking on Christianity- though the belief systems are different in many key respects. Once they had been drawn into the larger framework of the British empire, with its education, missionaries and so on, then this seeming disadvantage became an advantage. They adapted more rapidly than bigger, more sophisticated traditional polities, and reaped the advantages. If they were under a conservative, central Muslim hegemon by contrast, their relatively rapid adoption of Christianity and new Western knowledge would have proceeded more slowly. This "early adopter advantage" pattern appears in a number of places around the world.

    The need to adapt to cold and a yearly cycle led to an early “industrial revolution” (manufacture of tailored clothing and fine needles …

    the people who initiated any such “revolution” were Africans, that expanded in the more favorable environments of Eurasia in different eras.

    First needles 30,000yr before the Pyramids:

    Bone needles

    Late Magdalenian, about 12,500 years old
    From the cave of Courbet, Penne-Tarn, France

    Needles first appear in western Europe on Upper Palaeolithic sites about 35,000 years ago. They show not only a newly found skill in working bone, but also suggest that skins and furs were being used to make such items as clothes, shoes, tents, blankets, nets and bags, as well as the production of thread.

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  • @Dipwill
    "We’re talking about prehistory, and the relevant evidence is necessarily incomplete. It’s a stretch to assume that the Igbo were spending all their time smelting iron before the 9th century."

    That is not what I am saying, but metal smelting seems to be among the few notable achievements/activites on the part of the Igbo for most of their history, and it seems unlikely there was much else going on. To this day, we have found very little urbanization in their region, so I think it is most likely the case their history has been relatively static.

    I am not denying that a millenium would be more than enough- however, you have not built a substantial case for what led to their higher intelligence, or if it is even significantly higher than other Nigerian groups and such.

    "“Inexact” data would be welcome. So far I’ve found no evidence that children from other West African groups perform at a high academic level, at least nothing comparable to what we see among the Igbo."

    You are aware that in the US and Britain, immigrants from africa exhibit a very high level of academic achievement, and this is the case for most groups that do immigrate, and is variously the case in other European countries. Even then, they are altogether very small in number, regardless of country of origin. Nigerian immigrants in the west are overwhelmingly from the south, and after the Igbo, the Yoruba seem to be the second largest. At the same time, the Yoruba and Igbo are among the largest african ethnic groups, numbering over 40 million and 30 million respectively, and compared to other african immigrant groups, are less disproportionate in their achievement. The only clear picture we have of their academic achievement comes from these small immigrant populations, so it is difficult to say if they are significantly above other Nigerians.

    "That was the whole of his argument against natural selection. Greg Cochran felt it would be a waste of time to refute that paper point by point. I can’t help but agree."

    No, I can clearly say that was not his entire argument against natural selection, I have already mentioned multiple other points against it. And you think it's a waste of time to refute the paper point by point? Really? As far as I can tell, that is the only coherent attempt at critiquing NHAI in the decade since it was published, and they have barely expanded directly on the original paper. I have almost never seen them address it, and on the rare occasions they have, it's been very cursory/dismissive, or they focus on Ferguson's environmental approach. I can't help but think they're being unfair (arguably even dishonest) towards a detailed, nearly 40 page critique.

    For what it's worth, we could also talk about how much more intelligent the Ashkenazi are compared to jewish groups- we don't really know, but most of them are very likely above 100, unless you want to believe Lynn's figures which puts them below 100, which ties in with his bizarre ideas about middle easterners. The more accurate Ashkenazi average of 110, and groups like the Sephardim and Mizrahim, who are likely a few or several points and had this advantage for much longer, have never been considered in relation to NHAI.

    "Yes, Elmina is in Ghana, but there was considerable trade between it and the Benin kingdom. My argument was that metallurgy developed at a much later date in the kingdoms of northern and western Nigeria than it did among the Igbo. I also argued that these other metallurgy traditions were strongly influenced by Middle Eastern traditions, whereas the Ibo metallurgy tradition was largely indigenous."

    I think you're stretching the frame of your argument here. You were originally claiming Benin as both a city-state and empire formed due to trade with the Portuguese, then you claimed that they were trading with arabs and berbers by the time the Portuguese arrived, and now you are referring to arab and berber trade with the Akan who traded with Benin. Even then, it is questionable how extensive arab/berber trade with the Akan was in that time, since that region saw little cultural influence from Islam and the ultimate Akan state, Ashanti, did not form until some time after European trade began. It is undeniable that downstream, these areas have been economically influenced by trade (but again, heavy urbanization in the sahel region predates islam) with non-africans, since the region was contacted not long after Islam began, but it begins to stretch things if you talk about economic influence such as this as a major demarcation of local intellectual initiative.

    I am also not denying that european trade heavily influenced Benin, the Yoruba etc. (I posted a link discussing how Benin eventually began manufacturing it's own firearms), but you have been claiming Benin as both a city-state and an empire, along with it's artistic tradition, were formed due to European contact. That is not true, and it is even less true for the Yoruba, as Ile Ife and the art there predates european contact by a few centuries.

    "No, Igbo-Ukwu was occupied continuously up to the period of contact with European traders. We are looking at the same cultural tradition that led to present-day Igbo."

    I have never heard of Igbo-Ukwu being inhabited until European contact, and the art produced there dates some time before European contact. And somewhere along the line, Igbo-Ukwu became abandoned as a city and the art forgotten- it wasn't discovered and excavated until the 20th century. Igbo art produced outside of Igbo-Ukwu and up until modern times has been greatly inferior and hasn't come close to the art at Igbo-Ukwu, so we are not looking at the same cultural tradition. And for what it's worth, I'd forgotten the Yoruba were producing advanced art outside of Ile Ife, such as in the city of Owo, and to a lesser extent Ijebu, distinguishing them from both the Igbo and possibly Edo.

    It would be helpful if you could present evidence that the development of the art at Igbo-Ukwu was unique in comparison to however fragmented they were by then. At the same time, wouldn't this mean that it was a subset, or certain subsets of the Igbo that were responsible for Igbo-Ukwu and it's art? If that's the case, it would seem to make more sense to talk about just part of the Igbo that are notably more intelligent as opposed to the group as a whole. You imply that the Igbo remained fragmented until quite recently, with the name being in a way imposed. So how did these intellectual advantages spread throughout the Igbo if:

    a) They were politically fragmented throughout their history until recently.

    b) By extension, Igbo-Ukwu, possibly the only city ever created by the Igbo with art only found there, was formed without conquest or patronage to the extent other Nigerian groups created their achievements, and was therefore due to a proportionately smaller subset(s) of the Igbo, and not representative of them as a whole.

    "Differences in survival and reproductive success. This was a point I made earlier about the Bengal famine of 1944. Traders perished in far greater numbers because they could not fall back on farming. Conversely, trade can produce wealth to a far greater degree than farming normally does. In a successful trading family, children can marry at a younger age and their life prospects are similarly better."

    I honestly can't say that general picture is unlikely for South Asia, nor do I disagree with most of Clarke's work, which I am greatly familiar. His picture is quite different from NHAI, which hinges more strongly on specific selective pressures.

    "Actually, I think it does. It reflected the need, among hunter-gatherers, to store large quantities of spatio-temporal data. For instance, the location of a herd of game animals, how to get to them and how to get back home, mental simulations over time and space of where and when game animals will be available, etc."

    Your framing of hunter-gatherer behavior (and when you have spoken of this phenomenon) applies only to northern hunter-gatherers, and this has been seen well outside of arctic regions. I got the impression you were referring to something unrelated to g, and if it is g, this would mean northern hunter-gatherers, in addition to having higher IQ's, were very disproportionately skewed towards visuo-spatial and memory abilities. I think it's highly unlikely that being a norther hunter-gatherer would require high intelligence at all, and whatever the case, similarly large brain size (and likely high intelligence) developed in multiple places much further south.

    If we could look at modern hunter-gatherers, australian aborigines and inuits would be illustrative cases. Richard Lynn found both of them have strong memory skills, with aborigines doing better than whites. He ties this in with the featureless landscapes of both their environments requiring the ability to memorize landmarks. While inuits have large brain sizes and likely high IQ's, aborigines have small brains and low IQ's (although I don't think they're at all as low as the figures Lynn gives.) Aborigines likewise have regions of the brain associated with memory that are disproportionately developed (this was noted in early anatomical studies, who drew bizarre associations with orangutan brains). At the same time, early aboriginal skulls are much larger than modern aboriginal ones and comparable to northern skulls, with the early australian environment likely being less demanding than the modern, more desertified ones. The environment that gave this advantage is much more narrow focused than most other hunter-gatherer environments, and I think is arguably the only sort of time you'd see this sort of cognitive profile arise.

    If it is something unrelated to g, I have never heard of any cognitive profile that would result in these kinds of abilities and this brain size and become common in a population yet be unrelated to g. With all of the failed attempts to find multiple intelligences and what other physiological correlates that would require, I don't think it's possible.

    Finally, I don't think the decline has anything to do with metabolic demands, and the idea larger brains require that is dramatically overblown. People with brain sizes equal to or larger than hunter-gatherers are common today- they're people of above average IQ (though not everyone with a high IQ has a larger brain- it could be more complex in other ways). Yet smart people (even geniuses) do not suffer any sort of unique metabolic or dietary demands compared to people with lower IQ's/smaller and or less complex brains, and neither do they have more difficulty thriving. It would also beg asking why the brain size/intelligence advantage wasn't sustained, but eventually selected to become less skewed. A cognitive advantage attained by a certain environment does not require that environment to sustain it, and can be used as the framework for an advantage in other. This is especially true for humans. Though why brain size/intelligence declined, I don't know, but I think it was most likely drift, and hunter-gatherer environments and other simpler ones might be much more prone to drift with intelligence.

    A few things I want to add:

    -When I said “and groups like the Sephardim and Mizrahim, who are likely a few or several points and had this advantage for much longer, have never been considered in relation to NHAI.”, I meant to say “who are likely a few or several points lower” in respect to the Ashkenazi.

    -I do not know why you keep claiming the way in which other Nigerian groups developed is tangential. It is highly relevant if we want to figure out if the Igbo are significantly more intelligent than nearby groups, and you have repeatedly made the case the Igbo are more intelligent because they relied less on outside influence and were developing earlier than the others.

    -Going back to the subject of brain size and hunter-gatherers, wouldn’t we expect inuits and siberians who have become settled in modern conditions to see their brain size decrease, if their historically large size is due to memory storage and so they have less of a use? I don’t think this is likely to happen.

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  • “We’re talking about prehistory, and the relevant evidence is necessarily incomplete. It’s a stretch to assume that the Igbo were spending all their time smelting iron before the 9th century.”

    That is not what I am saying, but metal smelting seems to be among the few notable achievements/activites on the part of the Igbo for most of their history, and it seems unlikely there was much else going on. To this day, we have found very little urbanization in their region, so I think it is most likely the case their history has been relatively static.

    I am not denying that a millenium would be more than enough- however, you have not built a substantial case for what led to their higher intelligence, or if it is even significantly higher than other Nigerian groups and such.

    ““Inexact” data would be welcome. So far I’ve found no evidence that children from other West African groups perform at a high academic level, at least nothing comparable to what we see among the Igbo.”

    You are aware that in the US and Britain, immigrants from africa exhibit a very high level of academic achievement, and this is the case for most groups that do immigrate, and is variously the case in other European countries. Even then, they are altogether very small in number, regardless of country of origin. Nigerian immigrants in the west are overwhelmingly from the south, and after the Igbo, the Yoruba seem to be the second largest. At the same time, the Yoruba and Igbo are among the largest african ethnic groups, numbering over 40 million and 30 million respectively, and compared to other african immigrant groups, are less disproportionate in their achievement. The only clear picture we have of their academic achievement comes from these small immigrant populations, so it is difficult to say if they are significantly above other Nigerians.

    “That was the whole of his argument against natural selection. Greg Cochran felt it would be a waste of time to refute that paper point by point. I can’t help but agree.”

    No, I can clearly say that was not his entire argument against natural selection, I have already mentioned multiple other points against it. And you think it’s a waste of time to refute the paper point by point? Really? As far as I can tell, that is the only coherent attempt at critiquing NHAI in the decade since it was published, and they have barely expanded directly on the original paper. I have almost never seen them address it, and on the rare occasions they have, it’s been very cursory/dismissive, or they focus on Ferguson’s environmental approach. I can’t help but think they’re being unfair (arguably even dishonest) towards a detailed, nearly 40 page critique.

    For what it’s worth, we could also talk about how much more intelligent the Ashkenazi are compared to jewish groups- we don’t really know, but most of them are very likely above 100, unless you want to believe Lynn’s figures which puts them below 100, which ties in with his bizarre ideas about middle easterners. The more accurate Ashkenazi average of 110, and groups like the Sephardim and Mizrahim, who are likely a few or several points and had this advantage for much longer, have never been considered in relation to NHAI.

    “Yes, Elmina is in Ghana, but there was considerable trade between it and the Benin kingdom. My argument was that metallurgy developed at a much later date in the kingdoms of northern and western Nigeria than it did among the Igbo. I also argued that these other metallurgy traditions were strongly influenced by Middle Eastern traditions, whereas the Ibo metallurgy tradition was largely indigenous.”

    I think you’re stretching the frame of your argument here. You were originally claiming Benin as both a city-state and empire formed due to trade with the Portuguese, then you claimed that they were trading with arabs and berbers by the time the Portuguese arrived, and now you are referring to arab and berber trade with the Akan who traded with Benin. Even then, it is questionable how extensive arab/berber trade with the Akan was in that time, since that region saw little cultural influence from Islam and the ultimate Akan state, Ashanti, did not form until some time after European trade began. It is undeniable that downstream, these areas have been economically influenced by trade (but again, heavy urbanization in the sahel region predates islam) with non-africans, since the region was contacted not long after Islam began, but it begins to stretch things if you talk about economic influence such as this as a major demarcation of local intellectual initiative.

    I am also not denying that european trade heavily influenced Benin, the Yoruba etc. (I posted a link discussing how Benin eventually began manufacturing it’s own firearms), but you have been claiming Benin as both a city-state and an empire, along with it’s artistic tradition, were formed due to European contact. That is not true, and it is even less true for the Yoruba, as Ile Ife and the art there predates european contact by a few centuries.

    “No, Igbo-Ukwu was occupied continuously up to the period of contact with European traders. We are looking at the same cultural tradition that led to present-day Igbo.”

    I have never heard of Igbo-Ukwu being inhabited until European contact, and the art produced there dates some time before European contact. And somewhere along the line, Igbo-Ukwu became abandoned as a city and the art forgotten- it wasn’t discovered and excavated until the 20th century. Igbo art produced outside of Igbo-Ukwu and up until modern times has been greatly inferior and hasn’t come close to the art at Igbo-Ukwu, so we are not looking at the same cultural tradition. And for what it’s worth, I’d forgotten the Yoruba were producing advanced art outside of Ile Ife, such as in the city of Owo, and to a lesser extent Ijebu, distinguishing them from both the Igbo and possibly Edo.

    It would be helpful if you could present evidence that the development of the art at Igbo-Ukwu was unique in comparison to however fragmented they were by then. At the same time, wouldn’t this mean that it was a subset, or certain subsets of the Igbo that were responsible for Igbo-Ukwu and it’s art? If that’s the case, it would seem to make more sense to talk about just part of the Igbo that are notably more intelligent as opposed to the group as a whole. You imply that the Igbo remained fragmented until quite recently, with the name being in a way imposed. So how did these intellectual advantages spread throughout the Igbo if:

    a) They were politically fragmented throughout their history until recently.

    b) By extension, Igbo-Ukwu, possibly the only city ever created by the Igbo with art only found there, was formed without conquest or patronage to the extent other Nigerian groups created their achievements, and was therefore due to a proportionately smaller subset(s) of the Igbo, and not representative of them as a whole.

    “Differences in survival and reproductive success. This was a point I made earlier about the Bengal famine of 1944. Traders perished in far greater numbers because they could not fall back on farming. Conversely, trade can produce wealth to a far greater degree than farming normally does. In a successful trading family, children can marry at a younger age and their life prospects are similarly better.”

    I honestly can’t say that general picture is unlikely for South Asia, nor do I disagree with most of Clarke’s work, which I am greatly familiar. His picture is quite different from NHAI, which hinges more strongly on specific selective pressures.

    “Actually, I think it does. It reflected the need, among hunter-gatherers, to store large quantities of spatio-temporal data. For instance, the location of a herd of game animals, how to get to them and how to get back home, mental simulations over time and space of where and when game animals will be available, etc.”

    Your framing of hunter-gatherer behavior (and when you have spoken of this phenomenon) applies only to northern hunter-gatherers, and this has been seen well outside of arctic regions. I got the impression you were referring to something unrelated to g, and if it is g, this would mean northern hunter-gatherers, in addition to having higher IQ’s, were very disproportionately skewed towards visuo-spatial and memory abilities. I think it’s highly unlikely that being a norther hunter-gatherer would require high intelligence at all, and whatever the case, similarly large brain size (and likely high intelligence) developed in multiple places much further south.

    If we could look at modern hunter-gatherers, australian aborigines and inuits would be illustrative cases. Richard Lynn found both of them have strong memory skills, with aborigines doing better than whites. He ties this in with the featureless landscapes of both their environments requiring the ability to memorize landmarks. While inuits have large brain sizes and likely high IQ’s, aborigines have small brains and low IQ’s (although I don’t think they’re at all as low as the figures Lynn gives.) Aborigines likewise have regions of the brain associated with memory that are disproportionately developed (this was noted in early anatomical studies, who drew bizarre associations with orangutan brains). At the same time, early aboriginal skulls are much larger than modern aboriginal ones and comparable to northern skulls, with the early australian environment likely being less demanding than the modern, more desertified ones. The environment that gave this advantage is much more narrow focused than most other hunter-gatherer environments, and I think is arguably the only sort of time you’d see this sort of cognitive profile arise.

    If it is something unrelated to g, I have never heard of any cognitive profile that would result in these kinds of abilities and this brain size and become common in a population yet be unrelated to g. With all of the failed attempts to find multiple intelligences and what other physiological correlates that would require, I don’t think it’s possible.

    Finally, I don’t think the decline has anything to do with metabolic demands, and the idea larger brains require that is dramatically overblown. People with brain sizes equal to or larger than hunter-gatherers are common today- they’re people of above average IQ (though not everyone with a high IQ has a larger brain- it could be more complex in other ways). Yet smart people (even geniuses) do not suffer any sort of unique metabolic or dietary demands compared to people with lower IQ’s/smaller and or less complex brains, and neither do they have more difficulty thriving. It would also beg asking why the brain size/intelligence advantage wasn’t sustained, but eventually selected to become less skewed. A cognitive advantage attained by a certain environment does not require that environment to sustain it, and can be used as the framework for an advantage in other. This is especially true for humans. Though why brain size/intelligence declined, I don’t know, but I think it was most likely drift, and hunter-gatherer environments and other simpler ones might be much more prone to drift with intelligence.

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    • Replies: @Dipwill
    A few things I want to add:

    -When I said "and groups like the Sephardim and Mizrahim, who are likely a few or several points and had this advantage for much longer, have never been considered in relation to NHAI.", I meant to say "who are likely a few or several points lower" in respect to the Ashkenazi.

    -I do not know why you keep claiming the way in which other Nigerian groups developed is tangential. It is highly relevant if we want to figure out if the Igbo are significantly more intelligent than nearby groups, and you have repeatedly made the case the Igbo are more intelligent because they relied less on outside influence and were developing earlier than the others.

    -Going back to the subject of brain size and hunter-gatherers, wouldn't we expect inuits and siberians who have become settled in modern conditions to see their brain size decrease, if their historically large size is due to memory storage and so they have less of a use? I don't think this is likely to happen.
    , @Jm8
    Don't forget the Nok culture of central Nigeria (Jos Plateau) ca. 1,000 bc-200d, which smelted iron ca. 1,000 bc-200 ad ( one of the earliest iron metallurgy dates in West Af. after the Igbo and also thought now to be indigenous). It is known for its hollow terracotta sculptures.

    http://archive.archaeology.org/1107/features/nok_nigeria_africa_terracotta.html
    https://www.google.com/search?
    q=nok+terracotta&biw=1212&bih=898&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIiLG6yOPZxgIVi1weCh3tFQvu#tbm=isch&q=nok+culture+art

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    the point is just how little else there is in the history of the Igbo. They don’t seem like they were doing or experiencing much else.

    We're talking about prehistory, and the relevant evidence is necessarily incomplete. It's a stretch to assume that the Igbo were spending all their time smelting iron before the 9th century.

    But let's assume they were. Let's assume that things only got interesting in the 9th century. A millennium of natural selection is more than enough time to produce the kind of academic achievement we now see in Igbo children.

    I do not know the exact nature of what african ethnic groups are over-represented academically in western countries

    "Inexact" data would be welcome. So far I've found no evidence that children from other West African groups perform at a high academic level, at least nothing comparable to what we see among the Igbo.

    I don’t know if that’s the whole of his argument- he also argues that the nature of the work was not that complex and did not require above average intelligence, and that jews were not money lenders for extended periods of time, among many other things.

    That was the whole of his argument against natural selection. Greg Cochran felt it would be a waste of time to refute that paper point by point. I can't help but agree.

    Elmina is in Ghana, not Nigeria, and I am not one to dispute the idea the Akan kingdoms were strongly economically influenced by the muslim states further north with the gold trade (but general cultural influence from them was still not that substantial).I insist on it because it’s significant to your argument that the other Nigerian groups developed as they did due to outside help, whereas the Igbo did it much more on their own. You have yet to present much evidence this was the case.

    Yes, Elmina is in Ghana, but there was considerable trade between it and the Benin kingdom. My argument was that metallurgy developed at a much later date in the kingdoms of northern and western Nigeria than it did among the Igbo. I also argued that these other metallurgy traditions were strongly influenced by Middle Eastern traditions, whereas the Ibo metallurgy tradition was largely indigenous.

    I was taught at university that the slave trade (Atlantic and Transsaharan) spurred the development and expansion of the Yoruba, Hausa, and Benin kingdoms. In particular, the inflow of new wealth, and its concentration in the hands of chieftains, made possible a higher level of cultural development, as seen in monuments and works of art. Maybe Americans learn a different version of African history. Again, this point is tangential to our discussion.

    Igbo art from that period had some of the major hallmarks Benin and Ife art did, being centralized in one place and associated with divine kingship, and only lasting for a few centuries and eventually forgotten. What really set them apart?

    No, Igbo-Ukwu was occupied continuously up to the period of contact with European traders. We are looking at the same cultural tradition that led to present-day Igbo.

    Politically, the Igbo remained highly fragmented. To the extent that kingdoms developed, they weren't able to recruit talented individuals over a wide area.

    There seem to be many groups in South Asia who are of very high IQ;, and the Parsi are a good example, who are very small in number yet have achieved very, very disproportionately. I think it might be the case they are smarter than the Ashkenazi, who’s IQ seems to be 110. What sort of pressures could have really been so demanding in the past?

    Differences in survival and reproductive success. This was a point I made earlier about the Bengal famine of 1944. Traders perished in far greater numbers because they could not fall back on farming. Conversely, trade can produce wealth to a far greater degree than farming normally does. In a successful trading family, children can marry at a younger age and their life prospects are similarly better.

    I realize you have been strongly influenced by Ferguson's critique. You should read what the other side has to say. Gregory Clark has written perhaps the best and most thoroughly researched papers in this field.

    Clark, G. (2009a). The indicted and the wealthy: surnames, reproductive success, genetic selection and social class in pre-industrial England,
    http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/Farewell%20to%20Alms/Clark%20-Surnames.pdf

    Clark, G. (2009b). The domestication of Man: The social implications of Darwin, ArtefaCTos, 2(1), 64-80.
    http://campus.usal.es/~revistas_trabajo/index.php/artefactos/article/viewFile/5427/5465

    Clark, G. (2010). Regression to mediocrity? Surnames and social mobility in England, 1200-2009
    http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/papers/Ruling%20Class%20-%20EJS%20version.pdf

    There is also the phenomenon of brain size in earlier humans being much larger than it is now, and this being the case even in africa and australia. You think this doesn’t have much to do with intelligence,

    Actually, I think it does. It reflected the need, among hunter-gatherers, to store large quantities of spatio-temporal data. For instance, the location of a herd of game animals, how to get to them and how to get back home, mental simulations over time and space of where and when game animals will be available, etc.

    This kind of intelligence is metabolically expensive, i.e., it consumes a lot of memory storage. When humans gave up hunting and gathering for agriculture, there was no longer the same selection pressure for spatio-temporal intelligence. Consequently, brain size grew smaller.

    “So far I’ve found no evidence that children from other West African groups perform at a high academic level”

    So because neither you (nor Chisala) has done any research on this it means you can assume that only one West African group has children of immigrants that perform at a high academic level.

    John Dabiri is a Yoruba and is a son of Nigerian immigrants. Kunle Olukotun is a Yoruba and is a son of Nigerian immigrants. No other Nigerian group (except for one other non Igbo group) has children of immigrants to the West who later became APS Fellows (like Dabiri) or ACM Fellows (like Olukotun) or received similarly selective prestigious distinctions in the sciences in their academic careers. Winston Soboyejo (born in California) is also a son of Yoruba Nigerian immigrants. Saheela Ibrahim that I mentioned earlier in the comments is a Yoruba (Muslim) and child of Nigerian immigrants. This sort of pattern of high achievers repeats itself with this group, as it does with the Igbo who also achieve highly in the U.S.

    But because no detailed evidence about Yoruba, Akan, etc. (or any other West African group) performance has been gathered you assumed earlier that African immigrant children performing at a high academic level is something only limited to one ethnic group?

    “Yes, Elmina is in Ghana, but there was considerable trade between it and the Benin kingdom.”

    There were no “Arab and Berber” visiting traders at Elmina when the Poruguese arrived, as explained earlier.

    “I was taught at university that the slave trade (Atlantic and Transsaharan) spurred the development and expansion of the Yoruba, Hausa, and Benin kingdoms.”

    Why not get new books then? Or go back to university?

    Ife existed and thrived long before any slave trade (which it was never involved in). Oyo engaged in the slave trade after it was already a power in its region. There is archaeological evidence of Oyo’s first city existing by the 12th century. Similarly for Benin.

    After recovering from an earlier war with the Nupe, Oyo expanded its power and only then was it able to engage significantly in the slave trade because of its defeat of neighbouring groups in war.

    Benin was already an empire when the Portugese arrived, before any slave trade, and its earliest discovered metallurgy precedes the slave trade. And what evidence have you or anyone else provided that the Hausa kingdoms only developed and expanded because of the slave trade? None.

    “No, Igbo-Ukwu was occupied continuously up to the period of contact with European traders.”

    Neither the person you are replying to nor anyone else has said Igbo Ukwu was unoccupied in later times. The fact is that the art lasted some centuries but did not continue after a while. The art from Igbo Ukwu could easily be associated with a kingship in the area – that was the opinion of an actual professional like Thurstan Shaw anyhow.

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  • @Jefferson
    The Chinese invaders are the Jews of West Africa. I remember reading about Chinese construction companies building residential and commercial buildings in countries like Nigeria and Angola.

    Chinese guests please?Mutual understanding based on mutual trust,how unAmerican!The only connection between Jews and Chinese is the latter’s food.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • the point is just how little else there is in the history of the Igbo. They don’t seem like they were doing or experiencing much else.

    We’re talking about prehistory, and the relevant evidence is necessarily incomplete. It’s a stretch to assume that the Igbo were spending all their time smelting iron before the 9th century.

    But let’s assume they were. Let’s assume that things only got interesting in the 9th century. A millennium of natural selection is more than enough time to produce the kind of academic achievement we now see in Igbo children.

    I do not know the exact nature of what african ethnic groups are over-represented academically in western countries

    “Inexact” data would be welcome. So far I’ve found no evidence that children from other West African groups perform at a high academic level, at least nothing comparable to what we see among the Igbo.

    I don’t know if that’s the whole of his argument- he also argues that the nature of the work was not that complex and did not require above average intelligence, and that jews were not money lenders for extended periods of time, among many other things.

    That was the whole of his argument against natural selection. Greg Cochran felt it would be a waste of time to refute that paper point by point. I can’t help but agree.

    Elmina is in Ghana, not Nigeria, and I am not one to dispute the idea the Akan kingdoms were strongly economically influenced by the muslim states further north with the gold trade (but general cultural influence from them was still not that substantial).I insist on it because it’s significant to your argument that the other Nigerian groups developed as they did due to outside help, whereas the Igbo did it much more on their own. You have yet to present much evidence this was the case.

    Yes, Elmina is in Ghana, but there was considerable trade between it and the Benin kingdom. My argument was that metallurgy developed at a much later date in the kingdoms of northern and western Nigeria than it did among the Igbo. I also argued that these other metallurgy traditions were strongly influenced by Middle Eastern traditions, whereas the Ibo metallurgy tradition was largely indigenous.

    I was taught at university that the slave trade (Atlantic and Transsaharan) spurred the development and expansion of the Yoruba, Hausa, and Benin kingdoms. In particular, the inflow of new wealth, and its concentration in the hands of chieftains, made possible a higher level of cultural development, as seen in monuments and works of art. Maybe Americans learn a different version of African history. Again, this point is tangential to our discussion.

    Igbo art from that period had some of the major hallmarks Benin and Ife art did, being centralized in one place and associated with divine kingship, and only lasting for a few centuries and eventually forgotten. What really set them apart?

    No, Igbo-Ukwu was occupied continuously up to the period of contact with European traders. We are looking at the same cultural tradition that led to present-day Igbo.

    Politically, the Igbo remained highly fragmented. To the extent that kingdoms developed, they weren’t able to recruit talented individuals over a wide area.

    There seem to be many groups in South Asia who are of very high IQ;, and the Parsi are a good example, who are very small in number yet have achieved very, very disproportionately. I think it might be the case they are smarter than the Ashkenazi, who’s IQ seems to be 110. What sort of pressures could have really been so demanding in the past?

    Differences in survival and reproductive success. This was a point I made earlier about the Bengal famine of 1944. Traders perished in far greater numbers because they could not fall back on farming. Conversely, trade can produce wealth to a far greater degree than farming normally does. In a successful trading family, children can marry at a younger age and their life prospects are similarly better.

    I realize you have been strongly influenced by Ferguson’s critique. You should read what the other side has to say. Gregory Clark has written perhaps the best and most thoroughly researched papers in this field.

    Clark, G. (2009a). The indicted and the wealthy: surnames, reproductive success, genetic selection and social class in pre-industrial England,

    http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/Farewell%20to%20Alms/Clark%20-Surnames.pdf

    Clark, G. (2009b). The domestication of Man: The social implications of Darwin, ArtefaCTos, 2(1), 64-80.

    http://campus.usal.es/~revistas_trabajo/index.php/artefactos/article/viewFile/5427/5465

    Clark, G. (2010). Regression to mediocrity? Surnames and social mobility in England, 1200-2009

    http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/papers/Ruling%20Class%20-%20EJS%20version.pdf

    There is also the phenomenon of brain size in earlier humans being much larger than it is now, and this being the case even in africa and australia. You think this doesn’t have much to do with intelligence,

    Actually, I think it does. It reflected the need, among hunter-gatherers, to store large quantities of spatio-temporal data. For instance, the location of a herd of game animals, how to get to them and how to get back home, mental simulations over time and space of where and when game animals will be available, etc.

    This kind of intelligence is metabolically expensive, i.e., it consumes a lot of memory storage. When humans gave up hunting and gathering for agriculture, there was no longer the same selection pressure for spatio-temporal intelligence. Consequently, brain size grew smaller.

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    "So far I’ve found no evidence that children from other West African groups perform at a high academic level"

    So because neither you (nor Chisala) has done any research on this it means you can assume that only one West African group has children of immigrants that perform at a high academic level.

    John Dabiri is a Yoruba and is a son of Nigerian immigrants. Kunle Olukotun is a Yoruba and is a son of Nigerian immigrants. No other Nigerian group (except for one other non Igbo group) has children of immigrants to the West who later became APS Fellows (like Dabiri) or ACM Fellows (like Olukotun) or received similarly selective prestigious distinctions in the sciences in their academic careers. Winston Soboyejo (born in California) is also a son of Yoruba Nigerian immigrants. Saheela Ibrahim that I mentioned earlier in the comments is a Yoruba (Muslim) and child of Nigerian immigrants. This sort of pattern of high achievers repeats itself with this group, as it does with the Igbo who also achieve highly in the U.S.

    But because no detailed evidence about Yoruba, Akan, etc. (or any other West African group) performance has been gathered you assumed earlier that African immigrant children performing at a high academic level is something only limited to one ethnic group?

    "Yes, Elmina is in Ghana, but there was considerable trade between it and the Benin kingdom."

    There were no "Arab and Berber" visiting traders at Elmina when the Poruguese arrived, as explained earlier.

    "I was taught at university that the slave trade (Atlantic and Transsaharan) spurred the development and expansion of the Yoruba, Hausa, and Benin kingdoms."

    Why not get new books then? Or go back to university?

    Ife existed and thrived long before any slave trade (which it was never involved in). Oyo engaged in the slave trade after it was already a power in its region. There is archaeological evidence of Oyo's first city existing by the 12th century. Similarly for Benin.

    After recovering from an earlier war with the Nupe, Oyo expanded its power and only then was it able to engage significantly in the slave trade because of its defeat of neighbouring groups in war.

    Benin was already an empire when the Portugese arrived, before any slave trade, and its earliest discovered metallurgy precedes the slave trade. And what evidence have you or anyone else provided that the Hausa kingdoms only developed and expanded because of the slave trade? None.

    "No, Igbo-Ukwu was occupied continuously up to the period of contact with European traders."

    Neither the person you are replying to nor anyone else has said Igbo Ukwu was unoccupied in later times. The fact is that the art lasted some centuries but did not continue after a while. The art from Igbo Ukwu could easily be associated with a kingship in the area - that was the opinion of an actual professional like Thurstan Shaw anyhow.

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  • @Deduction
    Talking with Chisala's fans is like talking with a lawyer.

    You came up with an example of one Nigerian who did not take a specific test. Since it is one example it is entirely meaningless.

    You did not come up with any reason or evidence why Nigerians as a whole are not taking that test.

    Stop arguing around the point of everything. You know your example is meaningless!

    I gave two examples and I do not see how they are meaningless. If two high achieving Nigerian students mentioned recently in the media may not have taken the PSAT then I do not think we can assume that every high achieving Nigerian student will take it. But that was not even my main objection to candid_observer’s national merit comparison. He was using a population guesstimate and the source of the guesstimate cited on Wikipedia was only a random website where the claim was made, not anything based on a study. In fact there are not even any studies that would give a reasonably accurate number but just guesstimates from various sites with no explanation of the methodology used to arrive at the estimated figure(s).

    Even if one assumed that Nigerian students who do not take the PSAT could be ignored, the only charts that are available – and only some of these seem to be available online – which give percentages for the enrollment in the school districts in the Greater Houston area by race do not distinguish Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, and Asians by their ancestral country of origin or specific ethnicity. Therefore finding out the student enrollment of Nigerians in the Greater Houston area as a percentage of all student enrollment, which is what one would actually need, cannot yet be done accurately.

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  • @PandaAtWar
    You seem still don't get my points {sigh}, almost none of them. Let Panda repeat one last time, if you still don't get them, pls excuse Panda for no reply any more:


    1. Whenever Terracotta Army was mentioned, we only looked at their bronze pieces, not others, so pls don't bring up other topics such as (clay) warriors, etc. We're talking about bronze works, only.

    2. We're on the page of bronze technologies, not any subjective "artistic feel" etc. No artistic feel, please. Only tech, ok? So pls don't bring up irrelevent "Hellenistic influence" , as it has nothing to do with topics at hand.

    3a. Panda has already given you an easy softball by saying "the size of bronze works doesn't matter". So you can bring up any size of 9th century Igbo bronze items to compare to Qin.

    3b. Actually sizes of bronze do matter (the hardball that Panda didn't emphasise. ROFL) , because bronze is notoriously soft. So how to make a huge arse bronze work, being a huge life-sized empty horse with thin layers, or produce >0.8 metre bronze swords (i.e. what the Roman soldiers had) , or 1.3 metre bronze swords (i.e. what the Qin soldiers had), without breaking them, reflects a high level of technological knowhow. That's why Panda asked you to present (the longest) bronze sword made by Igbo to showcase their bronze technology, not so-called "artistic feel" since it is very subjective. Of course Igbo made bronze swords, but that's not point. Every major tribe outside Africa made bronze swords at some time, the point was how long they were without breaking or bending them.

    4a. The population of Qin and Igbo doesn't matter -- again, this was another softball Panda gave to you for the simplicity of the argument --- the underlying assumption was to reasonablely assume that producing a small bronze pot was much much more dependent on tech knowhow rather than on an army of production and engineering labours or big arse sub value chains.

    4b Actually population does matter - the hardball that Panda didn't give to you. Of course it matters in a larger picture! All ancient tribes took growing their populations in all possible ways as the top priority to better survive. The fact that some got more population while others not is pretty good indication of underlying average intelligence, because to get larger population one needed technologies, strategies, and tactics for food, conquer and defend. So bronze wroks or not, the pathetic population size of Igbo compared to the Han Chinese is in itself already a pretty clear indication of the underlying avg IQ, which in turn dictates what levels of bronze works or steel works or most other things they each could produce, doesn't it? So in a sense no need of "bronze works comparison" actually in a purely theoritical term, as it appears obvious.

    5. Panda mentioned thin bronze copper wire etc. You don't just need to present Igbo thin copper wire becasue every major tribes outside Africa produced thin bronze wire at some time, just like bronze swords. Of course they did. That's not the point! The point was i) unified thickness and particularly ii) without trace of forging under magnifier - this required very high bronze enginnering tech, because forging it was much easier, probably any ancient human being, Bushman included, knew how to make sth very thin by just forging it.

    6. A hardball: whatever bronze item that Igbo made in 9th century was already 1,000 years behind the cutting edge of the technological curve compared to 9th century Imperial China which was making refined steel items for centuries already - just like when imperial China was already making 4G smartphones for 1,000 years, and the Igbo were still trying to start making analogue landline. So in this sense, Panda's offer to compare bronzeware of 200BC Qin and 900AD Igbo was a very generous softball already. Compare what? For 9th century China at a time, analogue landline - aka bronze items - was already an obsolete tech for 1,000 years . In another analogy: if in today's world someone shows off to you his ability of capable figuring out how to make a basic radio receiver in order to prove his ultra high intelligence, what you do then? Call a psychiatrist?

    “1. Whenever Terracotta Army was mentioned, we only looked at their bronze pieces, not others, so pls don’t bring up other topics such as (clay) warriors, etc. We’re talking about bronze works, only.”

    I do not seem to be making my point clear about the Hellenstic influence or you seem to be deliberately ignoring it. This is not about clay. It is also relevant to the larger bronze work such as life sized chariots. I do not see how you still don’t understand this.

    “2. We’re on the page of bronze technologies, not any subjective “artistic feel” etc. No artistic feel, please. Only tech, ok? So pls don’t bring up irrelevent “Hellenistic influence” , as it has nothing to do with topics at hand.”

    My comment that you are replying to was not about “artistic feel” at all. “Artistic feel” was not mentioned. The Hellenistic influence is being discussed because of its relevance to the issue of size (not the naturalistic style influence) which you keep emphasizing.

    The technical sophistication of the Igbo Ukwu works has been explained already and I gave references to support my point.

    “3a. Panda has already given you an easy softball by saying “the size of bronze works doesn’t matter”. So you can bring up any size of 9th century Igbo bronze items to compare to Qin.”

    Didn’t I already? What I made clear in my last post is that the Igbo Ukwu works are cast either as thin or even thinner than Qin bronzes. You focused especially on the thinness of casting. I answered that but now you seem to be ignoring what I actually posted.

    “3b. Actually sizes of bronze do matter (the hardball that Panda didn’t emphasise. ROFL) , because bronze is notoriously soft. So how to make a huge arse bronze work, being a huge life-sized empty horse with thin layers”

    I believe I already explained what my view is on the size issue:

    Some Hellenistic influence on Chinese art —> larger sizes, such as life size horse sculptures

    I do view external influence as a factor to take into account when making these kinds of comparisons.

    “or produce >0.8 metre bronze swords (i.e. what the Roman soldiers had) , or 1.3 metre bronze swords (i.e. what the Qin soldiers had), without breaking them, reflects a high level of technological knowhow. That’s why Panda asked you to present (the longest) bronze sword made by Igbo to showcase their bronze technology, not so-called “artistic feel” since it is very subjective. Of course Igbo made bronze swords, but that’s not point. Every major tribe outside Africa made bronze swords at some time, the point was how long they were without breaking or bending them.”

    They made iron swords at Igbo Ukwu. I do not know what the length of either the iron swords or the bronze scabbards that they made is. I never commented on the “artistic feel” of any swords or scabbards made.

    “4a. The population of Qin and Igbo doesn’t matter — again, this was another softball Panda gave to you for the simplicity of the argument — the underlying assumption was to reasonablely assume that producing a small bronze pot was much much more dependent on tech knowhow rather than on an army of production and engineering labours or big arse sub value chains.”

    Population sizes actually matter when comparing the pace of technological development between societies but regardless the actual technical details of the Igbo Ukwu art are impressive and are “among the most technically accomplished bronzes ever made” anyway.

    “4b Actually population does matter – the hardball that Panda didn’t give to you. Of course it matters in a larger picture! All ancient tribes took growing their populations in all possible ways as the top priority to better survive. The fact that some got more population while others not is pretty good indication of underlying average intelligence, because to get larger population one needed technologies, strategies, and tactics for food, conquer and defend. So bronze wroks or not, the pathetic population size of Igbo compared to the Han Chinese is in itself already a pretty clear indication of the underlying avg IQ, which in turn dictates what levels of bronze works or steel works or most other things they each could produce, doesn’t it? So in a sense no need of “bronze works comparison” actually in a purely theoritical term, as it appears obvious.”

    No actually much of Eurasia (China included) is easier to live in than west Africa. But this is too well known to even waste time arguing about it. I understand that you do not really know much about Africa but this is getting ridiculous.

    “5. Panda mentioned thin bronze copper wire etc. You don’t just need to present Igbo thin copper wire becasue every major tribes outside Africa produced thin bronze wire at some time, just like bronze swords. Of course they did. That’s not the point! The point was i) unified thickness and particularly ii) without trace of forging under magnifier – this required very high bronze enginnering tech, because forging it was much easier, probably any ancient human being, Bushman included, knew how to make sth very thin by just forging it.”

    Copper wire drawing is not “forging.” The website you quoted was just making a bogus statement when it said that: “It remains a secret how the thin copper wire (0.5 mm)can be made and joined into a circle.” There is no “secret.” Copper wiredrawing is already well known and not only circles but even more complex shapes were made with even thinner copper wire than 0.5 mm, such as in that 0.2 mm example from Zaire that I quoted. This sort of technology is not unique:

    “Wire (iron, copper, but also imported brass and, in places, silver and gold) is in Africa drawn in the same way as in Asia” – Gerhard Lindblom, Wire-drawing, Especially in Africa

    Maybe you do not actually understand what copper wiredrawing is and how it works and perhaps that is why you believe that the statements from that tour website you quoted (about “uniform thickness” and “without the trace of forging”) are evidence of something that was so unique.

    “6. A hardball: whatever bronze item that Igbo made in 9th century was already 1,000 years behind the cutting edge of the technological curve compared to 9th century Imperial China which was making refined steel items for centuries already – just like when imperial China was already making 4G smartphones for 1,000 years, and the Igbo were still trying to start making analogue landline. So in this sense, Panda’s offer to compare bronzeware of 200BC Qin and 900AD Igbo was a very generous softball already. Compare what? For 9th century China at a time, analogue landline – aka bronze items – was already an obsolete tech for 1,000 years . In another analogy: if in today’s world someone shows off to you his ability of capable figuring out how to make a basic radio receiver in order to prove his ultra high intelligence, what you do then? Call a psychiatrist?”

    I think you might need a psychiatrist if you cannot understand that factoring in sizes of the respective societies being compared and factoring in the amount of external influences available is the rational thing to do when making comparisons about the pace of technological progress.

    I am probably just wasting my time by responding to you.

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  • @FirstPerson
    Also, I do not think you understand what the thrust of my argument was. Candid_observer believed that national merit semifinalist data from Nigerians is the measure to use to determine whether Nigerians are performing at the same level as other groups that are performing well, yet there are even recent examples of high achieving Nigerian students covered in the media (there may be more that are not covered by the media) who may not have taken the PSAT.

    Talking with Chisala’s fans is like talking with a lawyer.

    You came up with an example of one Nigerian who did not take a specific test. Since it is one example it is entirely meaningless.

    You did not come up with any reason or evidence why Nigerians as a whole are not taking that test.

    Stop arguing around the point of everything. You know your example is meaningless!

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    I gave two examples and I do not see how they are meaningless. If two high achieving Nigerian students mentioned recently in the media may not have taken the PSAT then I do not think we can assume that every high achieving Nigerian student will take it. But that was not even my main objection to candid_observer's national merit comparison. He was using a population guesstimate and the source of the guesstimate cited on Wikipedia was only a random website where the claim was made, not anything based on a study. In fact there are not even any studies that would give a reasonably accurate number but just guesstimates from various sites with no explanation of the methodology used to arrive at the estimated figure(s).

    Even if one assumed that Nigerian students who do not take the PSAT could be ignored, the only charts that are available - and only some of these seem to be available online - which give percentages for the enrollment in the school districts in the Greater Houston area by race do not distinguish Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, and Asians by their ancestral country of origin or specific ethnicity. Therefore finding out the student enrollment of Nigerians in the Greater Houston area as a percentage of all student enrollment, which is what one would actually need, cannot yet be done accurately.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @FirstPerson
    Panda at war, I said that I would like to think that you are not a troll despite the fact that you kept making strange derogatory remarks that would be viewed as false by basically anyone who has some basic knowledge about the Igbo Ukwu art. Then there is the fact that you keep referring to yourself in the third person and typing in a strange style. I do not know how old you are but if you are very young that might explain the insults toward the art of other cultures and the overall tone of your comments.

    1. I did not say the actual bronze casting techniques of the Chinese art came from the west at all. I said that the entire idea of making all those life size figures may have come from Hellenistic influenced societies to the west of China.

    Since you think the size of the respective artwork that is being compared is important (as is clear from your comments) it is pertinent to note that the size of the pieces in the terracotta army - regardless of whether the material we are talking about is bronze or terracotta - may have been influenced by other peoples in Eurasia who had already been influenced by an artistic tradition which stretches back earlier to Greece and hence back even to ancient Egypt, hence my citation of Lukas Nickel on Hellenistic influence.

    Many Chinese bronze ritual vessels - such as pots and similar items - which were made long before any probable Hellenistic influence are usually much smaller in size than the bronze work that you keep mentioning from the terracotta army but I would not dismiss great Chinese art of that type because it is not of a large size.

    2. On a technical level there are professional sources praising what the Igbo Ukwu art achieved. To quote just one of these sources on the Igbo Ukwu art:

    "They are among the most inventive and technically accomplished bronzes ever made." - The Grove encyclopedia of materials and techniques in art (2008), Gerald W.R. Ward (editor), Oxford University Press. p. 71.

    There are other sources you could find rather easily if this issue of whether the Igbo Ukwu art was technically accomplished or not interests you so much. But I will not keep going back and forth with you about this because it seems that you just want to ignore reputable sources. The comparison about thinness, thickness etc. that you want to make are problematic because these two vastly different cultures may not have been trying to make exactly the same kind of art.

    But since you are so curious I will let you know (since you seem to have 'no darn clue' about it) that art made in the larger general region of Igbo Ukwu, such as the metal art of Ife and Benin is famously thinly cast, in such a manner that, according to The Cambridge History of Africa, Vol. 3, p. 476:

    "At Ife, supplies of metal seem at first to have been so scarce that the casts were often made with thicknesses of metal that European bronze-casters would have regarded as impossibly thin. (This, incidentally, is a considerable tribute to the technical skill of the Ife casters.)"

    The Igbo Ukwu works exhibit similar thinness, like the pieces from Ife mentioned in the Cambridge History of Africa. For example, speaking of the Igbo Ukwu pieces, The Grove Encyclopedia of materials and techniques in art says:

    "Great vessels of 250-400 mm in diameter were cast in one, with walls never more than 1 or 2 mm thick" - The Grove encyclopedia of materials and techniques in art (2008), Gerald W.R. Ward (editor), Oxford University Press. p. 71.

    Note that these are millimeters, easily meeting your personal requirement for what is supposed to be technically complex in bronze work.

    Whether they varied the thickness in individual pieces of the art at specific places is something I would have to look for more detailed sources on but from some of the artwork I have seen it seems likely that they did. If I am successful in finding a reputable source on this I will put a comment on here about it for you.

    With regard to copper wires, there are very thin copper wires, made into rings, from Zambia and other places in central and southern Africa but I would not conclude that those places in central and southern Africa had better metallurgical competence than the society of Igbo Ukwu in West Africa just because of that. I do not see that particular aspect (thin copper wires made into rings) as the kind of standard of technical sophistication in metallurgy in general that can be used to conclude that one society was more technically competent than another one in overall terms, or else I would be forced to conclude that everywhere in central and southern Africa that had copper wires made into rings and various other designs was more technically advanced in metallurgy than Igbo Ukwu. Consider for example, the wiredrawing of central and southern Africa discussed in the book Red Gold of Africa:

    "In one form or another, then, copper wire has been a staple of the material culture of this part of Africa, both modern and ancient. At Sanga, in southwestern Zaire, it was found spiraled and unspiraled in rings and bracelets as well as worked into chains. One of the most remarkable necklaces consists of fine (0.2 millimeter) copper wire wound spirally into a tube 2 to 3 millimeters in diameter, then wound again to form the necklace itself; another consists of interwoven copper wire. At Ingombe Ilede, bangles of fine copper and copper alloy abound, along with unworked trade wire and bobbins of fine copper, as well as wiredrawing implements. Moreover, all the sites associated with Great Zimbabwe have proven rich in finds of of copper and bronze wire, and it is ubiquitous at Mapugubwe Hill." - Eugenia W. Herbert, Red Gold of Africa: Copper in Precolonial History and Culture (2003), p. 81

    There are other sources on copper wire in Africa that I could cite but the point is that copper wire drawing being used in southern and central Africa does not automatically demonstrate that they were more advanced than west Africans in metal working so I would certainly not conclude that Chinese copper wire rings, from whatever date, are such an amazing feat that they would put actual bronze sculptures to shame. It's not a one-to-one comparison, really. I do not even know if Igbo Ukwu or other societies in the larger southern Nigeria region even cared to use copper wires in art or other decorations. As scarce as copper was for some of them, they might have needed to save it for more complex art or for art forms that their societies held in higher esteem.

    On swords, there was an iron sword with a bronze scabbard recovered from the Igbo Isaiah archaeological site of the Igbo Ukwu area, but I do not know what its length was.

    3. I believe population size does matter with regard to judging the pace of technological development of a society in general and also with regard to the number of high quality works of art produced, just as I believe outside influence is another factor to consider. You may believe differently. That is fine, but I do not want to want to bother writing a detailed explanation of things which should be almost obvious to people who approach issues in a rational manner.

    4. If you feel I was trying to discredit you by bringing up the issue of trolling that was not my intention, but I will let you know if no one else already has that your writing style can be a bit off-putting and suggestive of the comment style of a troll, hence my earlier comment. But really I take back the comment if you are not actually trolling. I still think you should make some effort to look at reputable sources on the art of the other societies you are discussing before just insulting such art blindly.

    You seem still don’t get my points {sigh}, almost none of them. Let Panda repeat one last time, if you still don’t get them, pls excuse Panda for no reply any more:

    1. Whenever Terracotta Army was mentioned, we only looked at their bronze pieces, not others, so pls don’t bring up other topics such as (clay) warriors, etc. We’re talking about bronze works, only.

    2. We’re on the page of bronze technologies, not any subjective “artistic feel” etc. No artistic feel, please. Only tech, ok? So pls don’t bring up irrelevent “Hellenistic influence” , as it has nothing to do with topics at hand.

    3a. Panda has already given you an easy softball by saying “the size of bronze works doesn’t matter”. So you can bring up any size of 9th century Igbo bronze items to compare to Qin.

    3b. Actually sizes of bronze do matter (the hardball that Panda didn’t emphasise. ROFL) , because bronze is notoriously soft. So how to make a huge arse bronze work, being a huge life-sized empty horse with thin layers, or produce >0.8 metre bronze swords (i.e. what the Roman soldiers had) , or 1.3 metre bronze swords (i.e. what the Qin soldiers had), without breaking them, reflects a high level of technological knowhow. That’s why Panda asked you to present (the longest) bronze sword made by Igbo to showcase their bronze technology, not so-called “artistic feel” since it is very subjective. Of course Igbo made bronze swords, but that’s not point. Every major tribe outside Africa made bronze swords at some time, the point was how long they were without breaking or bending them.

    4a. The population of Qin and Igbo doesn’t matter — again, this was another softball Panda gave to you for the simplicity of the argument — the underlying assumption was to reasonablely assume that producing a small bronze pot was much much more dependent on tech knowhow rather than on an army of production and engineering labours or big arse sub value chains.

    4b Actually population does matter – the hardball that Panda didn’t give to you. Of course it matters in a larger picture! All ancient tribes took growing their populations in all possible ways as the top priority to better survive. The fact that some got more population while others not is pretty good indication of underlying average intelligence, because to get larger population one needed technologies, strategies, and tactics for food, conquer and defend. So bronze wroks or not, the pathetic population size of Igbo compared to the Han Chinese is in itself already a pretty clear indication of the underlying avg IQ, which in turn dictates what levels of bronze works or steel works or most other things they each could produce, doesn’t it? So in a sense no need of “bronze works comparison” actually in a purely theoritical term, as it appears obvious.

    5. Panda mentioned thin bronze copper wire etc. You don’t just need to present Igbo thin copper wire becasue every major tribes outside Africa produced thin bronze wire at some time, just like bronze swords. Of course they did. That’s not the point! The point was i) unified thickness and particularly ii) without trace of forging under magnifier – this required very high bronze enginnering tech, because forging it was much easier, probably any ancient human being, Bushman included, knew how to make sth very thin by just forging it.

    6. A hardball: whatever bronze item that Igbo made in 9th century was already 1,000 years behind the cutting edge of the technological curve compared to 9th century Imperial China which was making refined steel items for centuries already – just like when imperial China was already making 4G smartphones for 1,000 years, and the Igbo were still trying to start making analogue landline. So in this sense, Panda’s offer to compare bronzeware of 200BC Qin and 900AD Igbo was a very generous softball already. Compare what? For 9th century China at a time, analogue landline – aka bronze items – was already an obsolete tech for 1,000 years . In another analogy: if in today’s world someone shows off to you his ability of capable figuring out how to make a basic radio receiver in order to prove his ultra high intelligence, what you do then? Call a psychiatrist?

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    "1. Whenever Terracotta Army was mentioned, we only looked at their bronze pieces, not others, so pls don’t bring up other topics such as (clay) warriors, etc. We’re talking about bronze works, only."

    I do not seem to be making my point clear about the Hellenstic influence or you seem to be deliberately ignoring it. This is not about clay. It is also relevant to the larger bronze work such as life sized chariots. I do not see how you still don't understand this.

    "2. We’re on the page of bronze technologies, not any subjective “artistic feel” etc. No artistic feel, please. Only tech, ok? So pls don’t bring up irrelevent “Hellenistic influence” , as it has nothing to do with topics at hand."

    My comment that you are replying to was not about "artistic feel" at all. "Artistic feel" was not mentioned. The Hellenistic influence is being discussed because of its relevance to the issue of size (not the naturalistic style influence) which you keep emphasizing.

    The technical sophistication of the Igbo Ukwu works has been explained already and I gave references to support my point.

    "3a. Panda has already given you an easy softball by saying “the size of bronze works doesn’t matter”. So you can bring up any size of 9th century Igbo bronze items to compare to Qin."

    Didn't I already? What I made clear in my last post is that the Igbo Ukwu works are cast either as thin or even thinner than Qin bronzes. You focused especially on the thinness of casting. I answered that but now you seem to be ignoring what I actually posted.

    "3b. Actually sizes of bronze do matter (the hardball that Panda didn’t emphasise. ROFL) , because bronze is notoriously soft. So how to make a huge arse bronze work, being a huge life-sized empty horse with thin layers"

    I believe I already explained what my view is on the size issue:

    Some Hellenistic influence on Chinese art ---> larger sizes, such as life size horse sculptures

    I do view external influence as a factor to take into account when making these kinds of comparisons.

    "or produce >0.8 metre bronze swords (i.e. what the Roman soldiers had) , or 1.3 metre bronze swords (i.e. what the Qin soldiers had), without breaking them, reflects a high level of technological knowhow. That’s why Panda asked you to present (the longest) bronze sword made by Igbo to showcase their bronze technology, not so-called “artistic feel” since it is very subjective. Of course Igbo made bronze swords, but that’s not point. Every major tribe outside Africa made bronze swords at some time, the point was how long they were without breaking or bending them."

    They made iron swords at Igbo Ukwu. I do not know what the length of either the iron swords or the bronze scabbards that they made is. I never commented on the "artistic feel" of any swords or scabbards made.

    "4a. The population of Qin and Igbo doesn’t matter — again, this was another softball Panda gave to you for the simplicity of the argument — the underlying assumption was to reasonablely assume that producing a small bronze pot was much much more dependent on tech knowhow rather than on an army of production and engineering labours or big arse sub value chains."

    Population sizes actually matter when comparing the pace of technological development between societies but regardless the actual technical details of the Igbo Ukwu art are impressive and are "among the most technically accomplished bronzes ever made" anyway.

    "4b Actually population does matter – the hardball that Panda didn’t give to you. Of course it matters in a larger picture! All ancient tribes took growing their populations in all possible ways as the top priority to better survive. The fact that some got more population while others not is pretty good indication of underlying average intelligence, because to get larger population one needed technologies, strategies, and tactics for food, conquer and defend. So bronze wroks or not, the pathetic population size of Igbo compared to the Han Chinese is in itself already a pretty clear indication of the underlying avg IQ, which in turn dictates what levels of bronze works or steel works or most other things they each could produce, doesn’t it? So in a sense no need of “bronze works comparison” actually in a purely theoritical term, as it appears obvious."

    No actually much of Eurasia (China included) is easier to live in than west Africa. But this is too well known to even waste time arguing about it. I understand that you do not really know much about Africa but this is getting ridiculous.

    "5. Panda mentioned thin bronze copper wire etc. You don’t just need to present Igbo thin copper wire becasue every major tribes outside Africa produced thin bronze wire at some time, just like bronze swords. Of course they did. That’s not the point! The point was i) unified thickness and particularly ii) without trace of forging under magnifier – this required very high bronze enginnering tech, because forging it was much easier, probably any ancient human being, Bushman included, knew how to make sth very thin by just forging it."

    Copper wire drawing is not "forging." The website you quoted was just making a bogus statement when it said that: "It remains a secret how the thin copper wire (0.5 mm)can be made and joined into a circle." There is no "secret." Copper wiredrawing is already well known and not only circles but even more complex shapes were made with even thinner copper wire than 0.5 mm, such as in that 0.2 mm example from Zaire that I quoted. This sort of technology is not unique:

    "Wire (iron, copper, but also imported brass and, in places, silver and gold) is in Africa drawn in the same way as in Asia" - Gerhard Lindblom, Wire-drawing, Especially in Africa

    Maybe you do not actually understand what copper wiredrawing is and how it works and perhaps that is why you believe that the statements from that tour website you quoted (about "uniform thickness" and "without the trace of forging") are evidence of something that was so unique.

    "6. A hardball: whatever bronze item that Igbo made in 9th century was already 1,000 years behind the cutting edge of the technological curve compared to 9th century Imperial China which was making refined steel items for centuries already – just like when imperial China was already making 4G smartphones for 1,000 years, and the Igbo were still trying to start making analogue landline. So in this sense, Panda’s offer to compare bronzeware of 200BC Qin and 900AD Igbo was a very generous softball already. Compare what? For 9th century China at a time, analogue landline – aka bronze items – was already an obsolete tech for 1,000 years . In another analogy: if in today’s world someone shows off to you his ability of capable figuring out how to make a basic radio receiver in order to prove his ultra high intelligence, what you do then? Call a psychiatrist?"

    I think you might need a psychiatrist if you cannot understand that factoring in sizes of the respective societies being compared and factoring in the amount of external influences available is the rational thing to do when making comparisons about the pace of technological progress.

    I am probably just wasting my time by responding to you.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @PandaAtWar
    also

    @ Enrique Cardov-a :(you can google up any related sources, they are endless, from british mesuem or wiki Qin , Han , Tang China)

    ------------------------

    LoL. Calling panda a troll sounds like a good strategy, then as if by doing that you could mystically "win" the argument.

    1. you still have no idea of what you're talking about.

    2.you are still repeating you nonsencal points again and again, but that doesn't somehow make them true.

    Your central excuses are all false:

    False A: you accuse that Terracotta Army was influenced by Western Art. Panda refuted you false claim which tries to switch the concept of this discussion. It's not size that matters(assume that Qin copied Western size, ok?), it's the content, the bronze tech does. Terracotta army itself represents bronze technology in essence nunder the context of this discussion, not some full body-sized art you try to switch to . None of Terracotta Army's bronze technologeis were influenced by the West which at a time was still at its infancy.

    False B: you keep mentioning the Qin had much larger population size which made the difference. False, because population size does not matter at all here as one doesn't need a huge value chain to produce a high tech Metallurgy item. e.g. Mercedez Benz is much much bigger, has much more workers than Aston Martin or Lotus. Yet the latter two can produce racing cars with the similar sophistication as Merc, even though Merc can produce 10,000 racing cars, but the Lotus just need to produce 1 to equalise it. Similarly, Igno can represent 1 item, not matter how small it is , to compare with what Qin China Terracotta Army produced. So Igno names 1 piece, Qin China names 1 piece - size doesn't matter. Fair enough? That's exactly what Panda proposed and compared in my earlier posts.

    False C: Then you keep secretly switching to another concept of "artisitc complexity ". My...!
    We had never talked about artistic feel before, which again is another entire new concept and quite subjective too, since one can rightly argue that "I feel rap songs of my neighbour's 12-yrs-old have more 'artistic complexity' than Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture", so what? What Panda has compared has ALWAYS been bronze technologies - now those are objective. You said you knew what Terracotta Army was all about, you don't. 99.99999% of the world population have no darn clue of it. What are objective bronze technologies that any layman can objectively and instantly judge which is supeior tech with almost 100% accuracy?

    E.g. try to produce 20 small bronze canopy tubes with their thickness varied between 0.4 cm thick to 0.1 cm thin and with curvature on the top of each. Simple? you don't need 20 Igbo persons to do that if they know how.

    or E.g. try to produce 1 hair-thin copper wire with uniform thickness (0.5mm) without using forging, and join it into a circle. You don't need 3 Igbo engineers to achive that if they know how.

    or E.g. try to produce 1 bronze sword with 1.3 metre length. Simple? You don't need 50,ooo Igbo persons to achieve it, you probably only need 5 .

    Can they do any of those? Now those are what Panda has been talking about, those are the things that define objectively the stage of high tech sophistication of the Bronze Age.

    Honestly, whatever stuff you pull out of Igbo in 900AD would look like from the Stone Age, to most objective people, when compared to any of 200BC Qin China bronze horse or carriot.

    You find 1 piece remotely close to those of Qin China in technological sophistication, come back to humble Panda.

    Before that happens, Igbos could probably claim their superiority in Africa as Peter Frost seems to suggest which Panda largely agrees.

    What you don't do , however, is to try to brag those primitive Igbo 9th century rocks out of all porpotions in front of the true cutting-edge frontrunners of Metallurgy in that part of history:

    Qin China (Teracotta Army was >1,100 years ahead of Igbo 9th century rocks ), or

    Han China ( about 1,000 years ahead, already starting of Cast Iron-making and, soon after, Steel-making . Goodbye, primitive bronzeware!) , or

    Tang China (the same 9th century as those Igno rocks, but excuse Panda, Tang China at a time was already about 800 years well into advanced steel-making, meanwhile the Igbo still tried to figure out how to make some primitive paterned bronze pots with some dots, pauleeez!. it's like right now we are talking about 4G smartphones, while you come along bragging about how advanced your ancient analogue landline is. ROFL)

    (In 9th century, Panda is not entirely sure, but probably even the camel-riding Arabs were a country mile ahead of the Igbo in metallurgy, let alone Imperial China)

    Actually I found out that copper wires were used in Igbo Ukwu and in numerous other places in West Africa. In fact there was a mention of their use at Igbo Ukwu in that book Red Gold of Africa (on p.196) that I missed, which I should have included in my previous comment. There are other sources that mention the copper wires found at Igbo Ukwu that were used for decorations but I have not been able to find the exact millimeter or centimeter thickness of these ones – I wouldn’t be surprised however if they were as thin as certain very thin ones from Zaire and other places in central Africa. If I find an exact number for the thinness of the wire I will publish a comment on it for you on this comment thread.

    But basically, copper wires were used in west, central, southern and eastern Africa in various shapes for bracelets and other things and so they may not even be unique enough to matter so much as some other measures when making distinctions about technical complexity of metallurgy.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @PandaAtWar
    also

    @ Enrique Cardov-a :(you can google up any related sources, they are endless, from british mesuem or wiki Qin , Han , Tang China)

    ------------------------

    LoL. Calling panda a troll sounds like a good strategy, then as if by doing that you could mystically "win" the argument.

    1. you still have no idea of what you're talking about.

    2.you are still repeating you nonsencal points again and again, but that doesn't somehow make them true.

    Your central excuses are all false:

    False A: you accuse that Terracotta Army was influenced by Western Art. Panda refuted you false claim which tries to switch the concept of this discussion. It's not size that matters(assume that Qin copied Western size, ok?), it's the content, the bronze tech does. Terracotta army itself represents bronze technology in essence nunder the context of this discussion, not some full body-sized art you try to switch to . None of Terracotta Army's bronze technologeis were influenced by the West which at a time was still at its infancy.

    False B: you keep mentioning the Qin had much larger population size which made the difference. False, because population size does not matter at all here as one doesn't need a huge value chain to produce a high tech Metallurgy item. e.g. Mercedez Benz is much much bigger, has much more workers than Aston Martin or Lotus. Yet the latter two can produce racing cars with the similar sophistication as Merc, even though Merc can produce 10,000 racing cars, but the Lotus just need to produce 1 to equalise it. Similarly, Igno can represent 1 item, not matter how small it is , to compare with what Qin China Terracotta Army produced. So Igno names 1 piece, Qin China names 1 piece - size doesn't matter. Fair enough? That's exactly what Panda proposed and compared in my earlier posts.

    False C: Then you keep secretly switching to another concept of "artisitc complexity ". My...!
    We had never talked about artistic feel before, which again is another entire new concept and quite subjective too, since one can rightly argue that "I feel rap songs of my neighbour's 12-yrs-old have more 'artistic complexity' than Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture", so what? What Panda has compared has ALWAYS been bronze technologies - now those are objective. You said you knew what Terracotta Army was all about, you don't. 99.99999% of the world population have no darn clue of it. What are objective bronze technologies that any layman can objectively and instantly judge which is supeior tech with almost 100% accuracy?

    E.g. try to produce 20 small bronze canopy tubes with their thickness varied between 0.4 cm thick to 0.1 cm thin and with curvature on the top of each. Simple? you don't need 20 Igbo persons to do that if they know how.

    or E.g. try to produce 1 hair-thin copper wire with uniform thickness (0.5mm) without using forging, and join it into a circle. You don't need 3 Igbo engineers to achive that if they know how.

    or E.g. try to produce 1 bronze sword with 1.3 metre length. Simple? You don't need 50,ooo Igbo persons to achieve it, you probably only need 5 .

    Can they do any of those? Now those are what Panda has been talking about, those are the things that define objectively the stage of high tech sophistication of the Bronze Age.

    Honestly, whatever stuff you pull out of Igbo in 900AD would look like from the Stone Age, to most objective people, when compared to any of 200BC Qin China bronze horse or carriot.

    You find 1 piece remotely close to those of Qin China in technological sophistication, come back to humble Panda.

    Before that happens, Igbos could probably claim their superiority in Africa as Peter Frost seems to suggest which Panda largely agrees.

    What you don't do , however, is to try to brag those primitive Igbo 9th century rocks out of all porpotions in front of the true cutting-edge frontrunners of Metallurgy in that part of history:

    Qin China (Teracotta Army was >1,100 years ahead of Igbo 9th century rocks ), or

    Han China ( about 1,000 years ahead, already starting of Cast Iron-making and, soon after, Steel-making . Goodbye, primitive bronzeware!) , or

    Tang China (the same 9th century as those Igno rocks, but excuse Panda, Tang China at a time was already about 800 years well into advanced steel-making, meanwhile the Igbo still tried to figure out how to make some primitive paterned bronze pots with some dots, pauleeez!. it's like right now we are talking about 4G smartphones, while you come along bragging about how advanced your ancient analogue landline is. ROFL)

    (In 9th century, Panda is not entirely sure, but probably even the camel-riding Arabs were a country mile ahead of the Igbo in metallurgy, let alone Imperial China)

    Panda at war, I said that I would like to think that you are not a troll despite the fact that you kept making strange derogatory remarks that would be viewed as false by basically anyone who has some basic knowledge about the Igbo Ukwu art. Then there is the fact that you keep referring to yourself in the third person and typing in a strange style. I do not know how old you are but if you are very young that might explain the insults toward the art of other cultures and the overall tone of your comments.

    1. I did not say the actual bronze casting techniques of the Chinese art came from the west at all. I said that the entire idea of making all those life size figures may have come from Hellenistic influenced societies to the west of China.

    Since you think the size of the respective artwork that is being compared is important (as is clear from your comments) it is pertinent to note that the size of the pieces in the terracotta army – regardless of whether the material we are talking about is bronze or terracotta – may have been influenced by other peoples in Eurasia who had already been influenced by an artistic tradition which stretches back earlier to Greece and hence back even to ancient Egypt, hence my citation of Lukas Nickel on Hellenistic influence.

    Many Chinese bronze ritual vessels – such as pots and similar items – which were made long before any probable Hellenistic influence are usually much smaller in size than the bronze work that you keep mentioning from the terracotta army but I would not dismiss great Chinese art of that type because it is not of a large size.

    2. On a technical level there are professional sources praising what the Igbo Ukwu art achieved. To quote just one of these sources on the Igbo Ukwu art:

    “They are among the most inventive and technically accomplished bronzes ever made.” – The Grove encyclopedia of materials and techniques in art (2008), Gerald W.R. Ward (editor), Oxford University Press. p. 71.

    There are other sources you could find rather easily if this issue of whether the Igbo Ukwu art was technically accomplished or not interests you so much. But I will not keep going back and forth with you about this because it seems that you just want to ignore reputable sources. The comparison about thinness, thickness etc. that you want to make are problematic because these two vastly different cultures may not have been trying to make exactly the same kind of art.

    But since you are so curious I will let you know (since you seem to have ‘no darn clue’ about it) that art made in the larger general region of Igbo Ukwu, such as the metal art of Ife and Benin is famously thinly cast, in such a manner that, according to The Cambridge History of Africa, Vol. 3, p. 476:

    “At Ife, supplies of metal seem at first to have been so scarce that the casts were often made with thicknesses of metal that European bronze-casters would have regarded as impossibly thin. (This, incidentally, is a considerable tribute to the technical skill of the Ife casters.)”

    The Igbo Ukwu works exhibit similar thinness, like the pieces from Ife mentioned in the Cambridge History of Africa. For example, speaking of the Igbo Ukwu pieces, The Grove Encyclopedia of materials and techniques in art says:

    “Great vessels of 250-400 mm in diameter were cast in one, with walls never more than 1 or 2 mm thick” – The Grove encyclopedia of materials and techniques in art (2008), Gerald W.R. Ward (editor), Oxford University Press. p. 71.

    Note that these are millimeters, easily meeting your personal requirement for what is supposed to be technically complex in bronze work.

    Whether they varied the thickness in individual pieces of the art at specific places is something I would have to look for more detailed sources on but from some of the artwork I have seen it seems likely that they did. If I am successful in finding a reputable source on this I will put a comment on here about it for you.

    With regard to copper wires, there are very thin copper wires, made into rings, from Zambia and other places in central and southern Africa but I would not conclude that those places in central and southern Africa had better metallurgical competence than the society of Igbo Ukwu in West Africa just because of that. I do not see that particular aspect (thin copper wires made into rings) as the kind of standard of technical sophistication in metallurgy in general that can be used to conclude that one society was more technically competent than another one in overall terms, or else I would be forced to conclude that everywhere in central and southern Africa that had copper wires made into rings and various other designs was more technically advanced in metallurgy than Igbo Ukwu. Consider for example, the wiredrawing of central and southern Africa discussed in the book Red Gold of Africa:

    “In one form or another, then, copper wire has been a staple of the material culture of this part of Africa, both modern and ancient. At Sanga, in southwestern Zaire, it was found spiraled and unspiraled in rings and bracelets as well as worked into chains. One of the most remarkable necklaces consists of fine (0.2 millimeter) copper wire wound spirally into a tube 2 to 3 millimeters in diameter, then wound again to form the necklace itself; another consists of interwoven copper wire. At Ingombe Ilede, bangles of fine copper and copper alloy abound, along with unworked trade wire and bobbins of fine copper, as well as wiredrawing implements. Moreover, all the sites associated with Great Zimbabwe have proven rich in finds of of copper and bronze wire, and it is ubiquitous at Mapugubwe Hill.” – Eugenia W. Herbert, Red Gold of Africa: Copper in Precolonial History and Culture (2003), p. 81

    There are other sources on copper wire in Africa that I could cite but the point is that copper wire drawing being used in southern and central Africa does not automatically demonstrate that they were more advanced than west Africans in metal working so I would certainly not conclude that Chinese copper wire rings, from whatever date, are such an amazing feat that they would put actual bronze sculptures to shame. It’s not a one-to-one comparison, really. I do not even know if Igbo Ukwu or other societies in the larger southern Nigeria region even cared to use copper wires in art or other decorations. As scarce as copper was for some of them, they might have needed to save it for more complex art or for art forms that their societies held in higher esteem.

    On swords, there was an iron sword with a bronze scabbard recovered from the Igbo Isaiah archaeological site of the Igbo Ukwu area, but I do not know what its length was.

    3. I believe population size does matter with regard to judging the pace of technological development of a society in general and also with regard to the number of high quality works of art produced, just as I believe outside influence is another factor to consider. You may believe differently. That is fine, but I do not want to want to bother writing a detailed explanation of things which should be almost obvious to people who approach issues in a rational manner.

    4. If you feel I was trying to discredit you by bringing up the issue of trolling that was not my intention, but I will let you know if no one else already has that your writing style can be a bit off-putting and suggestive of the comment style of a troll, hence my earlier comment. But really I take back the comment if you are not actually trolling. I still think you should make some effort to look at reputable sources on the art of the other societies you are discussing before just insulting such art blindly.

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    You seem still don't get my points {sigh}, almost none of them. Let Panda repeat one last time, if you still don't get them, pls excuse Panda for no reply any more:


    1. Whenever Terracotta Army was mentioned, we only looked at their bronze pieces, not others, so pls don't bring up other topics such as (clay) warriors, etc. We're talking about bronze works, only.

    2. We're on the page of bronze technologies, not any subjective "artistic feel" etc. No artistic feel, please. Only tech, ok? So pls don't bring up irrelevent "Hellenistic influence" , as it has nothing to do with topics at hand.

    3a. Panda has already given you an easy softball by saying "the size of bronze works doesn't matter". So you can bring up any size of 9th century Igbo bronze items to compare to Qin.

    3b. Actually sizes of bronze do matter (the hardball that Panda didn't emphasise. ROFL) , because bronze is notoriously soft. So how to make a huge arse bronze work, being a huge life-sized empty horse with thin layers, or produce >0.8 metre bronze swords (i.e. what the Roman soldiers had) , or 1.3 metre bronze swords (i.e. what the Qin soldiers had), without breaking them, reflects a high level of technological knowhow. That's why Panda asked you to present (the longest) bronze sword made by Igbo to showcase their bronze technology, not so-called "artistic feel" since it is very subjective. Of course Igbo made bronze swords, but that's not point. Every major tribe outside Africa made bronze swords at some time, the point was how long they were without breaking or bending them.

    4a. The population of Qin and Igbo doesn't matter -- again, this was another softball Panda gave to you for the simplicity of the argument --- the underlying assumption was to reasonablely assume that producing a small bronze pot was much much more dependent on tech knowhow rather than on an army of production and engineering labours or big arse sub value chains.

    4b Actually population does matter - the hardball that Panda didn't give to you. Of course it matters in a larger picture! All ancient tribes took growing their populations in all possible ways as the top priority to better survive. The fact that some got more population while others not is pretty good indication of underlying average intelligence, because to get larger population one needed technologies, strategies, and tactics for food, conquer and defend. So bronze wroks or not, the pathetic population size of Igbo compared to the Han Chinese is in itself already a pretty clear indication of the underlying avg IQ, which in turn dictates what levels of bronze works or steel works or most other things they each could produce, doesn't it? So in a sense no need of "bronze works comparison" actually in a purely theoritical term, as it appears obvious.

    5. Panda mentioned thin bronze copper wire etc. You don't just need to present Igbo thin copper wire becasue every major tribes outside Africa produced thin bronze wire at some time, just like bronze swords. Of course they did. That's not the point! The point was i) unified thickness and particularly ii) without trace of forging under magnifier - this required very high bronze enginnering tech, because forging it was much easier, probably any ancient human being, Bushman included, knew how to make sth very thin by just forging it.

    6. A hardball: whatever bronze item that Igbo made in 9th century was already 1,000 years behind the cutting edge of the technological curve compared to 9th century Imperial China which was making refined steel items for centuries already - just like when imperial China was already making 4G smartphones for 1,000 years, and the Igbo were still trying to start making analogue landline. So in this sense, Panda's offer to compare bronzeware of 200BC Qin and 900AD Igbo was a very generous softball already. Compare what? For 9th century China at a time, analogue landline - aka bronze items - was already an obsolete tech for 1,000 years . In another analogy: if in today's world someone shows off to you his ability of capable figuring out how to make a basic radio receiver in order to prove his ultra high intelligence, what you do then? Call a psychiatrist?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @candid_observer
    It is likewise true that blacks in the US have very aggressive Affirmative Action working in their favor, so that the comparison between the two groups on the basis of their performance on the medical school tests is pretty fair.

    Moreover, the number of blacks in England who take the medical school cognitive test seem to be in rough proportion to their numbers in the relevant cohort -- about 6%. (While the overall proportion of blacks in England is about 3.5%, they have about half again as many proportionately in the relevant young cohort as whites.)

    This means that comparing the relative scores of whites vs. blacks in England who do well on this metric is basically quite fair, especially when the absolute difference -- over 1 SD -- is so great. Minor adjustments due to relative representation are not going to have a significant impact on the implications of those starkly different numbers.

    t is likewise true that blacks in the US have very aggressive Affirmative Action working in their favor, so that the comparison between the two groups on the basis of their performance on the medical school tests is pretty fair.

    Not really. US blacks don’t have any “very aggressive Affirmative Action working in their favor.” This is a myth. From their very inception, AA has been throttled and sandbagged, from union opposition to Richard Nixon’s famous 1969 “Philadelphia Plan” to the Reagan regime’s 1980s rolling back EEO enforcement and oversight, with big cuts to the EEOC budget that created a backlog measured in YEARS. Furthermore, quotas were diluted using a variety of devices from the get-go. Some workplaces went the “tokenism” route- hire a few blacks to make a lawsuit go away and prevent the lawyers from digging too deeply into racist practices.

    And where quotas did go into effect they were quickly expanded to cover white women, and in time, the bulk of the beneficiaries of quotas became white women. In fact since the 1980s, courts have sharply limited the use of “quotas” in contracting as demonstrated in the Croson case (1989) which ruled against minority-only contract awards, and the Adarand case (1990). In short, while courts have not entirely killed Affirmative Action or “diversity”, from the 1980s they have sharply limited its applicability. And this was over 2 decades ago. California’s famous Proposition 209 which outlawed was in 1996, almost 20 years ago.

    As far as admissions quotas are a small factor in black higher education. In the 2006 Fisher case fr example, out of over 100 students in the contested admission pool, blacks and Hispanics weighted in at 5 bodies, barely 3-5%. And there is/was always a small percentage of black students who never needed quotas in the first place. See Sanders book- Mismatch where the end of AA quotas in one studied high-end law school STILL left behind about 3% of the slots for blacks. These remaining blacks did NOT need quotas.

    On the employment front again alleged AA quotas “swamping” white people turn out to be phantoms. One study of govt contractors with AA between 1974 and 1980, for instance, Leonard (1984;1990) finds that among contractors black male employment rose from 5.8% to 6.7, an unimpressive .9 percent, LESS than even 1%- rather trivial. As regards the professors on campus, the “very aggressive quotas” alleged are rather thin gruel, despite massive neocon propaganda barrages. One study for example found that when AA started up:

    “The catastrophic scenarios conjured by the neo-conservatives and the [Jewish] agencies never came to pass. In fact between 1968 and 1973, blacks’ share of total university faculty jobs grew from 2.2 to 2.9 percent; with historically black colleges and universities removed from the calculations, blacks made up only 0.9 percent of the professoriate. Over the next twenty years, black representation among full-time faculty members grew only .05 percent…

    The federal government has barked but never bitten in academe as in construction: by 1980, not a single college or university in the country had lost federal monies for failure to comply with anti-discrimination law. A few leaders later acknowledged that affirmative action had caused no discernible loss of jobs for Jews, and that, quite to the contrary, Jewish women had benefited. Surveying ‘the impact o affirmative action on Jews’ in 1976, an AJC leader concluded that it ‘has not had catastrophic impact,’ though particular individuals might have ‘suffered mightily.’ How many though, ‘nobody seems to know,’ and no one had bothered to collect data beyond the anecdotal. Nor had anyone adduced figures proving that Jewish students had lost out across the board in admission to law or medical school.”
    –Nancy MacLean 2008. Freedom Is Not Enough: The Opening of the American Workplace. p. 218

    ^^Read Ron Unz’s analysis of meritocracy, and analysis of how Asians are being treated, and you will see standard neocon narratives about “quotas” in this area are not all they are made out to be.

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  • @FirstPerson
    Panda, I already know all that you have posted and more about the terracotta army so nothing you have posted is news to me. Nor is the information about the crossbows, swords, etc. new to me. But I do not think you understood my point. I would like to think you are not just a troll despite the derogatory comments about the art you made (for the record, evaluations of the technical complexity of the Igbo Ukwu art have been made in publications by experts and no one (credible) has denied that they represent a high achievement) and just state some details that rational people would take into account when making comparisons.

    As of the time that the terracotta army was made in the 3rd century BC the Igbo (or their ancestors, assuming that they even existed a distinct population or culture) may not have been up to 50,000 people - probably less. While the population of Qin China around that time was in the tens of millions. And if the population of the Igbo in the early 20th century is anything to go by, the Igbos in the 9th century AD definitely did not have anywhere the population of 3rd century BC China. Add to that the fact that China had direct influences from and access to other parts of Eurasia and it is clear that it is not actually an even or balanced race.

    You also seem to be excessively focused on the fact that the chariots are large. Sure, but then there is the possible external influence (from an artistic tradition which actually stretches all the way back to ancient Egypt as I mentioned in my previous comment) in making realistic life size figures to take into account plus the fact that Qin China was a much larger society in terms of area, population and resources than the Igbo ever were. So that the Chinese made more bronzes and made some of them much larger is not so surprising. But in terms of actual artistic complexity (which, admittedly, is subjective) I only see occasionally see Chinese bronzes here and there in books or online that match the best of the Igbo Ukwu art.

    also

    @ Enrique Cardov-a :(you can google up any related sources, they are endless, from british mesuem or wiki Qin , Han , Tang China)

    ————————

    LoL. Calling panda a troll sounds like a good strategy, then as if by doing that you could mystically “win” the argument.

    1. you still have no idea of what you’re talking about.

    2.you are still repeating you nonsencal points again and again, but that doesn’t somehow make them true.

    Your central excuses are all false:

    False A: you accuse that Terracotta Army was influenced by Western Art. Panda refuted you false claim which tries to switch the concept of this discussion. It’s not size that matters(assume that Qin copied Western size, ok?), it’s the content, the bronze tech does. Terracotta army itself represents bronze technology in essence nunder the context of this discussion, not some full body-sized art you try to switch to . None of Terracotta Army’s bronze technologeis were influenced by the West which at a time was still at its infancy.

    False B: you keep mentioning the Qin had much larger population size which made the difference. False, because population size does not matter at all here as one doesn’t need a huge value chain to produce a high tech Metallurgy item. e.g. Mercedez Benz is much much bigger, has much more workers than Aston Martin or Lotus. Yet the latter two can produce racing cars with the similar sophistication as Merc, even though Merc can produce 10,000 racing cars, but the Lotus just need to produce 1 to equalise it. Similarly, Igno can represent 1 item, not matter how small it is , to compare with what Qin China Terracotta Army produced. So Igno names 1 piece, Qin China names 1 piece – size doesn’t matter. Fair enough? That’s exactly what Panda proposed and compared in my earlier posts.

    False C: Then you keep secretly switching to another concept of “artisitc complexity “. My…!
    We had never talked about artistic feel before, which again is another entire new concept and quite subjective too, since one can rightly argue that “I feel rap songs of my neighbour’s 12-yrs-old have more ‘artistic complexity’ than Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture”, so what? What Panda has compared has ALWAYS been bronze technologies – now those are objective. You said you knew what Terracotta Army was all about, you don’t. 99.99999% of the world population have no darn clue of it. What are objective bronze technologies that any layman can objectively and instantly judge which is supeior tech with almost 100% accuracy?

    E.g. try to produce 20 small bronze canopy tubes with their thickness varied between 0.4 cm thick to 0.1 cm thin and with curvature on the top of each. Simple? you don’t need 20 Igbo persons to do that if they know how.

    or E.g. try to produce 1 hair-thin copper wire with uniform thickness (0.5mm) without using forging, and join it into a circle. You don’t need 3 Igbo engineers to achive that if they know how.

    or E.g. try to produce 1 bronze sword with 1.3 metre length. Simple? You don’t need 50,ooo Igbo persons to achieve it, you probably only need 5 .

    Can they do any of those? Now those are what Panda has been talking about, those are the things that define objectively the stage of high tech sophistication of the Bronze Age.

    Honestly, whatever stuff you pull out of Igbo in 900AD would look like from the Stone Age, to most objective people, when compared to any of 200BC Qin China bronze horse or carriot.

    You find 1 piece remotely close to those of Qin China in technological sophistication, come back to humble Panda.

    Before that happens, Igbos could probably claim their superiority in Africa as Peter Frost seems to suggest which Panda largely agrees.

    What you don’t do , however, is to try to brag those primitive Igbo 9th century rocks out of all porpotions in front of the true cutting-edge frontrunners of Metallurgy in that part of history:

    Qin China (Teracotta Army was >1,100 years ahead of Igbo 9th century rocks ), or

    Han China ( about 1,000 years ahead, already starting of Cast Iron-making and, soon after, Steel-making . Goodbye, primitive bronzeware!) , or

    Tang China (the same 9th century as those Igno rocks, but excuse Panda, Tang China at a time was already about 800 years well into advanced steel-making, meanwhile the Igbo still tried to figure out how to make some primitive paterned bronze pots with some dots, pauleeez!. it’s like right now we are talking about 4G smartphones, while you come along bragging about how advanced your ancient analogue landline is. ROFL)

    (In 9th century, Panda is not entirely sure, but probably even the camel-riding Arabs were a country mile ahead of the Igbo in metallurgy, let alone Imperial China)

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    Panda at war, I said that I would like to think that you are not a troll despite the fact that you kept making strange derogatory remarks that would be viewed as false by basically anyone who has some basic knowledge about the Igbo Ukwu art. Then there is the fact that you keep referring to yourself in the third person and typing in a strange style. I do not know how old you are but if you are very young that might explain the insults toward the art of other cultures and the overall tone of your comments.

    1. I did not say the actual bronze casting techniques of the Chinese art came from the west at all. I said that the entire idea of making all those life size figures may have come from Hellenistic influenced societies to the west of China.

    Since you think the size of the respective artwork that is being compared is important (as is clear from your comments) it is pertinent to note that the size of the pieces in the terracotta army - regardless of whether the material we are talking about is bronze or terracotta - may have been influenced by other peoples in Eurasia who had already been influenced by an artistic tradition which stretches back earlier to Greece and hence back even to ancient Egypt, hence my citation of Lukas Nickel on Hellenistic influence.

    Many Chinese bronze ritual vessels - such as pots and similar items - which were made long before any probable Hellenistic influence are usually much smaller in size than the bronze work that you keep mentioning from the terracotta army but I would not dismiss great Chinese art of that type because it is not of a large size.

    2. On a technical level there are professional sources praising what the Igbo Ukwu art achieved. To quote just one of these sources on the Igbo Ukwu art:

    "They are among the most inventive and technically accomplished bronzes ever made." - The Grove encyclopedia of materials and techniques in art (2008), Gerald W.R. Ward (editor), Oxford University Press. p. 71.

    There are other sources you could find rather easily if this issue of whether the Igbo Ukwu art was technically accomplished or not interests you so much. But I will not keep going back and forth with you about this because it seems that you just want to ignore reputable sources. The comparison about thinness, thickness etc. that you want to make are problematic because these two vastly different cultures may not have been trying to make exactly the same kind of art.

    But since you are so curious I will let you know (since you seem to have 'no darn clue' about it) that art made in the larger general region of Igbo Ukwu, such as the metal art of Ife and Benin is famously thinly cast, in such a manner that, according to The Cambridge History of Africa, Vol. 3, p. 476:

    "At Ife, supplies of metal seem at first to have been so scarce that the casts were often made with thicknesses of metal that European bronze-casters would have regarded as impossibly thin. (This, incidentally, is a considerable tribute to the technical skill of the Ife casters.)"

    The Igbo Ukwu works exhibit similar thinness, like the pieces from Ife mentioned in the Cambridge History of Africa. For example, speaking of the Igbo Ukwu pieces, The Grove Encyclopedia of materials and techniques in art says:

    "Great vessels of 250-400 mm in diameter were cast in one, with walls never more than 1 or 2 mm thick" - The Grove encyclopedia of materials and techniques in art (2008), Gerald W.R. Ward (editor), Oxford University Press. p. 71.

    Note that these are millimeters, easily meeting your personal requirement for what is supposed to be technically complex in bronze work.

    Whether they varied the thickness in individual pieces of the art at specific places is something I would have to look for more detailed sources on but from some of the artwork I have seen it seems likely that they did. If I am successful in finding a reputable source on this I will put a comment on here about it for you.

    With regard to copper wires, there are very thin copper wires, made into rings, from Zambia and other places in central and southern Africa but I would not conclude that those places in central and southern Africa had better metallurgical competence than the society of Igbo Ukwu in West Africa just because of that. I do not see that particular aspect (thin copper wires made into rings) as the kind of standard of technical sophistication in metallurgy in general that can be used to conclude that one society was more technically competent than another one in overall terms, or else I would be forced to conclude that everywhere in central and southern Africa that had copper wires made into rings and various other designs was more technically advanced in metallurgy than Igbo Ukwu. Consider for example, the wiredrawing of central and southern Africa discussed in the book Red Gold of Africa:

    "In one form or another, then, copper wire has been a staple of the material culture of this part of Africa, both modern and ancient. At Sanga, in southwestern Zaire, it was found spiraled and unspiraled in rings and bracelets as well as worked into chains. One of the most remarkable necklaces consists of fine (0.2 millimeter) copper wire wound spirally into a tube 2 to 3 millimeters in diameter, then wound again to form the necklace itself; another consists of interwoven copper wire. At Ingombe Ilede, bangles of fine copper and copper alloy abound, along with unworked trade wire and bobbins of fine copper, as well as wiredrawing implements. Moreover, all the sites associated with Great Zimbabwe have proven rich in finds of of copper and bronze wire, and it is ubiquitous at Mapugubwe Hill." - Eugenia W. Herbert, Red Gold of Africa: Copper in Precolonial History and Culture (2003), p. 81

    There are other sources on copper wire in Africa that I could cite but the point is that copper wire drawing being used in southern and central Africa does not automatically demonstrate that they were more advanced than west Africans in metal working so I would certainly not conclude that Chinese copper wire rings, from whatever date, are such an amazing feat that they would put actual bronze sculptures to shame. It's not a one-to-one comparison, really. I do not even know if Igbo Ukwu or other societies in the larger southern Nigeria region even cared to use copper wires in art or other decorations. As scarce as copper was for some of them, they might have needed to save it for more complex art or for art forms that their societies held in higher esteem.

    On swords, there was an iron sword with a bronze scabbard recovered from the Igbo Isaiah archaeological site of the Igbo Ukwu area, but I do not know what its length was.

    3. I believe population size does matter with regard to judging the pace of technological development of a society in general and also with regard to the number of high quality works of art produced, just as I believe outside influence is another factor to consider. You may believe differently. That is fine, but I do not want to want to bother writing a detailed explanation of things which should be almost obvious to people who approach issues in a rational manner.

    4. If you feel I was trying to discredit you by bringing up the issue of trolling that was not my intention, but I will let you know if no one else already has that your writing style can be a bit off-putting and suggestive of the comment style of a troll, hence my earlier comment. But really I take back the comment if you are not actually trolling. I still think you should make some effort to look at reputable sources on the art of the other societies you are discussing before just insulting such art blindly.

    , @FirstPerson
    Actually I found out that copper wires were used in Igbo Ukwu and in numerous other places in West Africa. In fact there was a mention of their use at Igbo Ukwu in that book Red Gold of Africa (on p.196) that I missed, which I should have included in my previous comment. There are other sources that mention the copper wires found at Igbo Ukwu that were used for decorations but I have not been able to find the exact millimeter or centimeter thickness of these ones - I wouldn't be surprised however if they were as thin as certain very thin ones from Zaire and other places in central Africa. If I find an exact number for the thinness of the wire I will publish a comment on it for you on this comment thread.

    But basically, copper wires were used in west, central, southern and eastern Africa in various shapes for bracelets and other things and so they may not even be unique enough to matter so much as some other measures when making distinctions about technical complexity of metallurgy.
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  • @PandaAtWar
    More detail on this bronze carriot & 4 horses inside Terracotta Army, in case you have no clue (not offence, but it's at least what appears to Panda) on what is true Metallurgy and Civilisation vís-a-vís that Igbo high tech "rock":

    This kind of bronze chariots unearthed give people a new impression. Its complex process and sophisticated production surprise the whole world. The bronze chariot is with tent, 78cm wide and 88cm deep in the carriage. It is 4cm wider than the chariots referred before, but it is 40cm deeper than it.

    The carriage is enclosed, even the steering place is covered, so the people inside can talk directly with the groom. People inside can sit or lie down to have a rest. It equals to soft sleeper and people can enjoy their journey in it with ease.

    The interior equipment is more distinctive. The cushion inside the carriage is beautiful and painted. Archaeologists have found a square copper plate at the bottom of the carriage, whose size is almost the same as the bottom of the carriage. Its surface is painted with all kinds of colorful geometric patterns, with eight 3 cm long copper nails at the corners and central part for support. This is undoubtedly the ancient soft mat products. If there are two in the carriage, the vehicle will be more stable and comfortable. It can be said to be China’s first “sleeper car”.

    Archaeologists have discovered that the bronze chariot has a total of 3462 parts, of which 1742 are bronze pieces, 737 are gold ones and 983 are silver ones. Its total weight is 1241kg, of which gold castings are more than 3 kg, silver castings are more than 4 kg. The number of casting parts of the first kind is nearly the same. There are more than 5000 parts for the two kinds of chariots and the parts are all casted.

    Whether it is canopy cover, copper horse or warrior as large as 2 square meters, or little tubes as small as 0.2 square meters, they are finished in one cast. Take canopy cover for example, it is large and its thickness varies. It can be 0.4 cm thick or 0.1 cm thin and it has curvature on the top. It is difficult to finish in one cast today, not to mention the Qin Dynasty 2,200 years ago. The casting of bronze horses and warriors are also difficult for contemporary engineers. They are perfect in expression, personality and temperament, and they can compare with the best officer warriors. It is rare in bronze horse and warrior casting. For example, the copper bridle is connected with 82 small gold tubes and 78 small silver tubes, with each only 0.8cm. It can be compared to modern bracelet.

    The most surprising object is Ying Luo, hanging on the neck of the horse and made of hair-thin copper wire. Under the magnifier, the copper wire is with uniform thickness and without the trace of forging. It remains a secret how the thin copper wire (0.5 mm)can be made and joined into a circle.

    All in all, it is a miracle in making such perfect artifacts with bronze in a period without modern equipments. Moreover, it gives us the first hand information of the bowing warriors, chariot warriors and riding warriors 2,200 years ago and it is of significant meaning in ancient military research.

    http://www.beijingtourstoterracottawarriors.com/about-terra-cotta-warriors.html
     

    So the Panda Challenge is : today's Igbo elites, try to make a copy of above themselves, alone, using 21st century technologies they have currently in Nigeria. See whether they can do it, and for how long it takes.

    Laughable rubbish. Since when is a “trip advisor” type anonymous, lightweight website representative of anything? Next you’ll be linking to Marvel Comics or fortune cookie blurbs for your “research.” Here is what a real art museum, one of the most respected in the world, in its published catalog has to say about the art of that region, which is overall part of the Igbo zone. Benin City where this art was housed by the way is less than 100 miles from Igbo-Ukwu:

    The art of Benin first became known in Europe and America in 1897,
    following the Punitive Expedition. Because of their relatively natural-
    istic style and use of luxury materials, such as brass and ivory, they
    created a sensation among art historians, anthropologists, and collec-
    tors. Felix von Luschan, the anthropologist who acquired a vast
    collection of Benin art for the Berlin Museum fur Volkerkunde, wrote
    in appreciation, “These works from Benin are equal to the very finest
    examples of European casting technique. Benvenuto Cellini could not
    have cast them better, nor could anyone else before or after him, even
    up to the present day. Technically, these bronzes represent the very
    highest possible achievement” (von Luschan 1901:10, cited in New
    York, Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1990:21).

    FROM: ROYAL ART OF BENIN
    The Metropolitan Museum of Art: The Perls Collection in The Metropolitan Museum of Art

    Kate Ezra

    This publication was issued in connection with the exhibition Royal Art of Benin from the Perls Collection held at The Metropolitan Museum of Art
    from January 16 through September 13, 1992. Published by The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York.

    https://archive.org/stream/RoyalArtofBeninThePerlsCollection/RoyalArtofBeninThePerlsCollection_djvu.txt

    So much for your er, “challenge”..

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  • @FirstPerson
    I was not under the impression that you were "arguing against me" I just found that you misread what I said about Horn of Africans.

    I also disagree with your claim about "most Africans" and neanderthal admixture because you have not provided the required proof and I am not aware of any proof of such for other groups. I was already aware of the east African neanderthal DNA discussed in that paper but we are discussing Igbos.

    I also disagreed with your characterization of lighter brown skin as a non-African feature. It is found not only among the Igbos in Nigeria (as just one place in Africa where it is found) and there are many dark skinned Igbos anyhow.

    I also disagreed with your characterization of lighter brown skin as a non-African feature. It is found not only among the Igbos in Nigeria (as just one place in Africa where it is found) and there are many dark skinned Igbos anyhow.

    And as noted in the scholarly citation above, Africans have the highest skin color diversity.

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  • @unpc downunder
    Coursework-driven assessment also tends to favour girls at the expense of boys. I remember when continuous coursework (known in Australia and New Zealand as internal assessment) came in the late 1980s. The headmasters of boy's secondary schools opposed it on the grounds that boys tend to deal with exam stress better than girls and have a lower boredom tolerance.

    In private schools in Australia and New Zealand an increasing number of students are doing Cambridge International Exams rather than continuous coursework qualifications.

    In the US there is some evidence that test changes were made so that girls could do better on tests. For example:

    College Board Revises Test to Improve Chances for Girls. 1996. Karen W. Arenson 10/2/1996 NY Times

    http://www.nytimes.com/1996/10/02/us/college-board-revises-test-to-improve-chances-for-girls.html?pagewanted=print&src=pm

    Is this similar to what you are talking about in Australia?

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  • @Qasim
    Maybe you should be more careful about what you right,

    Fair point. After all, one can never be too careful in one's righting. or reeding for that matter.

    I think a main problem we are having is that my comments are not addressed to people like you. If I was a masochist who wanted to try to convert the un-convertible, I would post on salon or huffingtonpost. But this is unz, where Steven Sailer lives, I assume a basic familiarity (and affinity) with HBD. Furthermore, this is a message board where brevity is important, and based on the general level of commenting on this site, I am assuming people are smart enough to get the basic gist of my argument without having to hold their hand.

    Peter Frost was the one who first said "You are assuming 3-4 races". I immediately knew he was referring to the Rushton type classification, which is Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and Australoid. But for whatever reason, Australoids are often omitted for the sake of brevity, and since we are discussing Eurasian DNA in Africa, referring to Australoids didn't seem important. Again, this is something that doesn't need to be obsessed over for people who are familiar with the argument and can make a simple mental leap.

    Curiously enough, you can proffer nothing specific to support your claims. How exactly does Lewontin support you for example?

    Again, I am not here to hold your hand and patiently explain everything to you. I assume that most of the people who read this site are already well aware of who Richard Lewontin is, how his Marxism colored his science, Lewontin's fallacy etc.

    As can be seen Relethford references (a) the already greater diversity of sub-Saharan Africans, which takes in genetic diversity and craniometric traits- nothing surprising given the evolution of anatomically modern humans in Africa. The origin point has greater diversity- everything else is a SUBSET of that diversity. Skin color is simply consistent with said pattern as Relethford shows. (b) Natural selection. This is basic Anthropology 101- nothing “fancy” about it.

    Again, you miss the point. And how many times are you going to cite your beloved Relethford?

    Let me try to make this clearer for you. Suppose there was an article that stated a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. All that would mean is that there is a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. Whether that diversity was something that was present 1500 years ago in the Arabian peninsula or whether the color diversity is a result of mating with and Arabizing people like the Persians and the Sudanese is not something that can be determined by the study.

    So is the diversity of skin colors among Bantus something intrinsic to Bantus or is it the result of admixture with different ethnicities who had different skin colors? Your beloved does not say, and that is why your endless citations of him are pointless.

    And this is a quote from the Razib Khan article recently posted on this site that seems germane..

    But the masking of Eurasian ancestry also highlighted something important: the genetic variation across African populations once you remove Eurasian ancestry is not that high.

    And as far as it being "basic Anthropology 101", does this lecture come before or after the lecture on how race is a completely social construct? I am sure "Gender is a social construct" is basic Womyn's Studies 101, but who cares?

    You need to go through your thought process logically, for your notion that lighter skin in Africa must be due to some sort of “race mix” is contradicted by your own example. You mention the San, and admit they have pale skin, but don’t seem to realize that your own statement contradicts your thought process. How did the San get yellow skin? Ancient Chinese colonists to the Kalahari or the Cape? Where is the evidence of these mysterious “Asiatic race mixers”? You don’t have any.

    Again, my only "mistake" was assuming you could make the sort of mental leaps that people with an IQ of say 120 make automatically.

    I DID make it clear we were talking not about the San, who have a nearly universal yellowish complexion and are often classified as another race (BUT I THOUGHT YOU SAID THERE WERE 4!!! When discussing Africa, Bantus, San, and Pygmies are often classified as 3 separate races (read syon's comment #130 if you are still confused). Anyway, there is no reason to think that the San's generally uniform skin complexion is the result of any race mixing. Now it is true I said light skin in African Americans is immediately thought to be the result of white admixture, so why not the same in Africans. But I assumed you knew we were still talking about Bantus (as I said Bantus are the group we are actually discussing). But for you, I will restate is as: When we see African Americans (who are overwhelmingly of Bantu origin) with light skin, we assume European admixture. So why is that when we see BANTU Africans (whose skin is generally exceedingly dark), that possibility is rejected out of hand? Because the alleged mixture took place in prehistory?

    So again, I do not assume EVERY African group has generally very dark skin. Not the San. Not the Boers. Not the people in the Maghreb. The Bantus only. Bantus Bantus Bantus.

    But even if this is so, how did said Neanderthal DNA produce light skin in Nigerians?

    Again, a small mental leap you were not able to make. So this one time I will spoonfeed you. Neanderthals lived in Eurasia. Neanderthals did not live in Africa. Neanderthals mated with Homo Sapiens. Neanderthal DNA is therefore present in modern humans. If a group of humans show Neanderthal DNA, then this means they had ancestors in Eurasia, since that is where Neanderthals and modern humans mated. If Africans are found to have Neanderthal DNA, then this means some of their ancestors were at one point in Eurasia.

    Now whether Neanderthals had the skin color of Taylor Swift or Lawrence Taylor is not relevant to the current argument. (Dipwill, it is also not relevant whether the Neanderthal brain was the size of a walnut or a watermelon.) The point of me bringing up the presence of Neanderthal DNA in Nigerians is ONLY that it is proof of partial Eurasian ancestry.

    What I do assume is that Eurasians likely had lighter skin than Bantus. So any offspring between Eurasians and Bantus would likely have lighter skin than Bantus without Eurasian admixture. Allow me to cite a recent credible article on Kanye West, a dark-skinned black man who recently had a daughter with a white woman. Now cutting edge spectral technology has given us tantalizing clues that this baby North has a complexion lighter than that of her black father yet darker than her white mother!! And this study helped me conclude that Africans with Eurasian admixture may be more light skinned.

    No actually what’s weird is your confused, laughable logic. The Igbo were no “light-skinned elite.”

    The Igbo are certainly an elite today. That IS the point of the Frost article, after all. And they are more light-skinned than other Nigerian tribes. And notice how you bring up Benin and totally ignore the ubiquitous and indisputable pattern of light-skinned elites seen throughout world history.

    I link to credible articles that debunk the rubbish you are pushing. You seem to be scared of actual credible scholarship- which is why you continuously try to avoid it. You and other intellectual lightweights

    You endlessly link to articles in the vain hopes that breadth of knowledge can substitute for depth of intellect and insight. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. I am not scared of your "credible" scholarship (notice how you use the word credible as this weird mantra, probably because you know someone else could as easily link to scholarly articles that conclude the exact opposite of what your articles say, but of course those articles would be non-credible).
    I just think looking at 50 leaves under an electron microscope is not the best way to comprehend the forest. Also, as we went over with the Relethford thing, what an article says and the ideologically addled conclusions you reach from them are two vastly different things. And thirdly, considering many of the researchers themselves share your ideological commitments, the fact that a scholar says something doesn't mean much on its own (see Lewontin, Gould).

    I know you will never believe me, but you are not even half as smart as you think, and all this lightweight stuff and lols are just projection. So be it. I leave you to snark away and write 20 more posts at your leisure.

    A couple of last thoughts. The amount of pompous bullshittery on this comment thread is a sight to behold. Look at FirstPerson's comment #176.

    The problem bedeviling people wondering about neanderthal admixture being found among a few Nigerians is the poor lack of knowledge of the history of that region that some here seem to have. I can go into detail if needed

    Fulanis came to Nigeria in the 16th century and again in the 18th century so any slight Eurasian DNA that they contributed to any peoples to the south of them has nothing to do with “ancient Eurasian migration” but to recent intermarriage and assimilation.

    Perhaps geneticists or genetics obsessed amateur anthropologists would do better to read more about the peoples they are speculating about in detail. If they do this they can avoid making the wrong assumption that some slight Eurasian DNA in (or derived from) some northern Nigerians who derived it from Northern Africans is evidence of ancient Eurasian admixture of Igbos or similar nonsense.


    Now let's quote some snippets from the aforementioned Razib Khan article posted on this site in December...

    What is more interesting is that they observed Eurasian admixture within Yoruba people. This admixture has been suggested by others, as the Yoruba have traces of Neandertal ancestry. This group dates the admixture back to nearly 10,000 years ago, so it as likely associated with goings on that were trans-Saharan. If that is the case these were almost certain quasi-Eurasian hunter-gatherers, and their ancestry might have been diminished in current North African groups subject to waves of farmers issuing from the east during the Neolithic. But there is also admixture with Eurasians further east in Uganda among Bantu groups.

    Though the Eurasian admixture story among these populations is fascinating, there is also nuance in the input of hunter-gatherer ancestry within West African and Bantu populations. First, I suspect that these estimates are low bounds, because they don’t have exact reference populations. Some of the hunter-gatherers mixed into the Igbo and Bantu groups may have been more like agriculturalists than the extant hunter-gatherer groups within Africa.

    The only complicating issue is that of Eurasian admixture; it seems likely that for very old admixture events we’re seeing underestimates, or they aren’t picked up. In other words, the “reference” Sub-Saharan Africans themselves are compounds of people who remained within Africa, and Out of Africa.


    So, other than the fact that you were off on the time of Neanderthal admixture by ohhh about 9500 years and incorrectly limited said mixture to Northern Nigerians everything you said was totally correct! Way to clear things up!!

    Again, this combination of absolute certitude and absolute talking out of one's arse is par for the course for people who can't bear to think that race and intelligence may be strongly linked.

    And there have been multiple comments insisting that other than a lighter skin color, the Igbo have no sign of Eurasian admixture. Do these people think that repeating this statement often enough will somehow make it true? Have these people actually seen many Igbos? There is a reason biracial Thandie Newton was cast to play an Igbo woman in a recent movie, and that there are endless message boards on the internet asking whether the Igbo are mixed-race, and why some Igbos themselves believe they have some Jewish ancestry.

    Sorry for the long post, that will be all from me. And to all those high-achieving Igbos out there, keep up the good work! :)

    I am assuming people are smart enough to get the basic gist of my argument without having to hold their hand.

    When your arguments are full of rubbish you usually assume quite erroneously, as demonstrated above, and below.

    .
    But for whatever reason, Australoids are often omitted for the sake of brevity, and since we are discussing Eurasian DNA in Africa, referring to Australoids didn’t seem important. Again, this is something that doesn’t need to be obsessed over for people who are familiar with the argument and can make a simple mental leap.

    .
    Simplistic mental leap sums up much of what you claim, as the case of the Australoids shows. And said Australoids are important for when you assert these “fundamental” HBD tenets like the “3 races,” to leave them out only demonstrates how dubious said tenets are. Why would they be oft enomitted if your model asserts only the 3 races? What does this say about your touted HBD model?

    .
    Again, I am not here to hold your hand and patiently explain everything to you. I assume that most of the people who read this site are already well aware of who Richard Lewontin is, how his Marxism colored his science, Lewontin’s fallacy etc.

    lol, you are simply ducking an dodging. You have no idea what you are talking about and throwing out glib phrases about “marxism colored” etc as cover still doesn’t cut it. How specifically does Lewontin support your claim? For an HBD expert like you answering that should be easy. What’s taking you so long?

    .
    Again, you miss the point. And how many times are you going to cite your beloved Relethford?
    And how many times do you try to shift exposure of the dubious claims you are pushing? You earlier called Relethford’s data “fancy”, as a way to run away from it. Whatsa matter? Is it too hard for you?

    .
    Let me try to make this clearer for you. Suppose there was an article that stated a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. All that would mean is that there is a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. Whether that diversity was something that was present 1500 years ago in the Arabian peninsula or whether the color diversity is a result of mating with and Arabizing people like the Persians and the Sudanese is not something that can be determined by the study.

    What you say makes little sense. Why do you assume a study on skin color would have nothing to say about sources of the skin color variation? Almost all studies on skin color do- Relethford above, which you keep ruining away from, as well as people like Jablonski (2000, 2010).

    .
    So is the diversity of skin colors among Bantus something intrinsic to Bantus or is it the result of admixture with different ethnicities who had different skin colors?

    You asserted that it was due to some sort of race mix, but when asked for evidence you run away behind a smokescreen of glibness. What’s taking you, the HBD expert, so long in laying out some credible evidence and scholarship in support of your claim? Lewontin does not lend any support at all to such a claim. When are you going to actually produce something, credible, rather than run away?

    .
    And this is a quote from the Razib Khan article recently posted on this site that seems germane..
    — But the masking of Eurasian ancestry also highlighted something important: the genetic variation across African populations once you remove Eurasian ancestry is not that high.

    This does not help your case at all, and it is not really germane to the matter at hand on skin color re the Igbo. Khan does not dispute that Africans have the greatest genetic diversity. In fact he admits it, saying “Nick Patterson” told him much diversity is within populations. Sure, no one disputes that. The bottom line – they both admit that greater diversity is still there, which conforms what Relethford says above. Khan also proffers much personal opinion in his spiel, but that does not change the bottom line found by credible genetic scientists (not bloggers) who are actually in the field. Your Khan quote again does little to help you case re the Igbo. You are only throwing it out to pretend that you have some grounds to stand on. Its like your vague, catch all “Lewontin” blurb- you can’t cite anything SPECIFIC, so you use that as a smokescreen, a typical “HBD” approach. But no one is being fooled.

    .
    Anyway, there is no reason to think that the San’s generally uniform skin complexion is the result of any race mixing.

    But earlier you asserted just such a claim, and you also suggest above that anyone with HBD knowledge would easily see and accept it. Why are you, the HBD expert guy, now trying to back away from the claim you so boldly asserted earlier?

    .
    When we see African Americans (who are overwhelmingly of Bantu origin) with light skin, we assume European admixture. So why is that when we see BANTU Africans (whose skin is generally exceedingly dark), that possibility is rejected out of hand? Because the alleged mixture took place in prehistory?

    For one thing, African Americans are not “overwhelmingly” of “Bantu” origin. This is yet another BS claim of yours, and you still don’t know what you are talking about. Here’s some actual data once again debunking the nonsensical claims you make.

    We found that all the African Americans are admixed in the African component of their ancestry, with estimated contributions of 19% West (for example, Mandenka), 63% West Central (for example, Yoruba), and 14% South West Central or Eastern (for example, Bantu speakers), with little variation among individuals.” (Zakharia et al., 2009, Characterizing the admixed African ancestry of African Americans.Genome Bio, v10, Is12. p.8)

    ^^Oooh! Look! Notice an actual scholarly citation! DO you think this is “too “fancy” for you to grasp?

    .
    Neanderthals lived in Eurasia. Neanderthals did not live in Africa. Neanderthals mated with Homo Sapiens. Neanderthal DNA is therefore present in modern humans. If a group of humans show Neanderthal DNA, then this means they had ancestors in Eurasia, since that is where Neanderthals and modern humans mated. If Africans are found to have Neanderthal DNA, then this means some of their ancestors were at one point in Eurasia.

    lol, you have been spoon feeding yourself too much of your own “obvious” gruel. None of the above supports your claim. How did Neanderthal skin color come to be reflected in the Igbo, since you keep claiming all this great “racial admixture”? Once again, you have noting credible to put on the table, only glib nonsense.

    .
    Now whether Neanderthals had the skin color of Taylor Swift or Lawrence Taylor is not relevant to the current argument. (Dipwill, it is also not relevant whether the Neanderthal brain was the size of a walnut or a watermelon.) The point of me bringing up the presence of Neanderthal DNA in Nigerians is ONLY that it is proof of partial Eurasian ancestry.

    But actually it is quite relevant. You THINK you have some sort of “supporting” point which is why you cite the Neanderthal example. You want to use the Neanderthals as your “Eurasian” kinda “race mixer.” But the example falls flat and you still can produce no credible scholarship showing this Igbo skin color variation is due to Neanderthals. You want to, but fail repeatedly.

    .
    Allow me to cite a recent credible article on Kanye West, a dark-skinned black man who recently had a daughter with a white woman. Now cutting edge spectral technology has given us tantalizing clues that this baby North has a complexion lighter than that of her black father yet darker than her white mother!! And this study helped me conclude that Africans with Eurasian admixture may be more light skinned.

    But what you are saying here is not at issue. Of course in the modern era Kanye and Kim will have a child with lighter skin. No one is “debating” that. What is at issue is your claim that skin color variation in Africa, specifically among the Igbo, is due to some sort of race mix. You fail repeatedly in your claim. Failing with the Igbo, you now cast your ramshackle net wider to conjure a ‘Neanderthal into Nigeria” angle. But once again, you can produce no credible evidence that such is responsible for any skin color variation among the Igbo, or in Nigeria.

    .
    The Igbo are certainly an elite today. That IS the point of the Frost article, after all. And they are more light-skinned than other Nigerian tribes. And notice how you bring up Benin and totally ignore the ubiquitous and indisputable pattern of light-skinned elites seen throughout world history.

    I said the Igbo were no light-skined elite and even today only SOME Igbo have such skin. Most of them are dark skinned people (Chuku (2013). Also, the Igbo were less advanced than many of the larger, more powerful, sophisticated cultures round them. As shown above the Igbo borrowed liberally from advanced art and technology already developed regionally, and adapted them to their own use. The Igbo were no “elite” until well into the 20th century.

    And this is the second time you assert your mystical claim of an allegedly “ubiquitous and indisputable pattern” of light-skinned elites seen throughout world history. I already gave the example of Benin and you duck it because it debunked your mystical claim. But we need not stop with Benin. Tell us, who were these mysterious “light skinned elites” than ran the Mali empire, or Ghana? How about the Zulu? Shaka or his predecessors were of the “light skinned elite”? lol..

    .

    (notice how you use the word credible as this weird mantra, probably because you know someone else could as easily link to scholarly articles that conclude the exact opposite of what your articles say, but of course those articles would be non-credible).

    lol, it is no mantra, it is straight fact, that again and again, debunks the rubbish you are pushing including these mystical “light skinned” “elites”. And since you can’t do it, where are the HBD experts that conclude the “exact opposite” of what Relethford and others cited above say?

    .
    And thirdly, considering many of the researchers themselves share your ideological commitments, the fact that a scholar says something doesn’t mean much on its own (see Lewontin, Gould).

    You can’t even keep your own logic straight, though you write plenty, but still strangely, cannot even produce a credible citation in support of the rickety claims you keep making. Up above you say Lewontin is Marxist etc etc, but then you invoke him in support of your claims. When challenged as to where Lewontin specifically proffers such support you run away to hide behind a smokescreen that does little to conceal your lack of knowledge.

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  • @Truth

    But ??? = me getting my head removed? That’s a puzzler. Was it your discovery of new commenter Qasim?
     
    The idea, Vinteuil-san, is to utilize your introspection, long enough for the answer to appear upon it's own.

    If I gave it away, it wouldn't be Zen.

    “The idea, Vinteuil-san, is to utilize your introspection, long enough for the answer to appear upon it’s own.”

    Noted.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Truth
    Now if you'll re-read my post, I said that I BELIEVE it was the 18th century. It was in fact the 19th.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Japan

    Now if you’ll re-read my post, I said that I BELIEVE it was the 18th century. It was in fact the 19th.

    Yes, but that elementary mistake ruined the joke.

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  • @PandaAtWar
    1. Your quotation of Lukas Nickel of the SOAS on his speculation that the full body size of the terracotta army might be inspired Hellenistic art has jack to do with the purpose why Panda put them there.

    Even assume that Lukas Nickel's speculation is entire true, it's like Panda is inspired to write my thesis on a A-4 paper instead of A-6 one. Does it imply something? Nothing. The content of my thesis has jack to do with which size of paper Panda is writing on.

    What Terracotta Army has shown is at the completely different league on many fronts, for example,

    --Terracotta Army makers beat Toyato by 2,000 years:

    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1211/01112012-terracotta-army-toyotism

    ---Terracotta Army reveals a awesome fighting machine

    http://www.georgianewsday.com/news/regional/192433-terracotta-army-was-an-awesome-fighting-machine-with-weapons-so-powerful-they-could-kill-an-enemy-with-a-single-arrow.html

    --Terracotta Army's crossbow bronze trigger mechanism engineering design was about 2,200 years ahead of its time, almost twice as powerful as modern rifle:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/peoplesdaily/article-3004149/2-200-year-old-crossbow-powerful-modern-day-assault-rifle-discovered-Terracotta-Warriors.html

    --Terracotta Army's aerodynamic arrow-heads were the result of astonishing precison engineering and manufacturing:

    http://www.ai-journal.com/articles/10.5334/ai.1316/

    -- Terracotta Army's bronze sword lenghth alone maked the one of the highest feats of Bronze Age manufactoring knowhow:

    http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/shaanxi/xian/terra_cotta_army/weapon_1.htm


    Does any of above have anything to do with Lukas Nickel 's speculation of Hellenistic art? Panda's point was that Qin's Terracotta Army ( 221BC) is a high tech engineering feat, representing the peak of Bronze Age of Human civilisation at a time (not an ART, or far beyond vitual art!).


    2. if point1 hasn't convinced you yet, then this point 2 - Panda's real purpose of posting terracotta Army in the earlier post - would definately made 9th cedntury Igbo bronze items appear amateurs at best:


    The chariots and horses are exact imitations of actual chariot, horse and driver in half life-size. The chariots and horses are composed of 3,400 bits (of which 1742 are bronze pieces) . The bronze chariot is 3.17 meters long, 1.06 meters high. The bronze horse is 65--67 centimeters high, 1. 2 meters long. Their weights vary from 177 kilograms, the lightest, to 212.9 kilograms, the heaviest. The total weight of the chariot, the horse and the driver reach to 1,243 kilograms.

    The main body is cast of bronze. There are altogether 1,720 pieces of gold and silver decoration on the chariots and horses, with a total weight of seven kilograms of silver and gold wares. One is compelled to appreciate the high technology, the real artistic modeling in great admiration.

    For instance, the umbrella-like canopy on the top is only four millimeter thick, the window one millimeter thick, with many ventilation holes. The horse tassels were made of bronze thread as thin as a hair, the diameter of which is only 0. 1 m. m.. The horse necklets were welded together with 42 nodes of gold and 42 nodes of silver. Archaeologists can see the welding joints only with the help of magnifiers. The horse halters, made of a gold tube and a silver tube, were joined with a form of snap fasteners. In the halters, there is a pin. When the pin was pulled out, the halters could be removed completely. According to primary research, it is found that the making of the bronze chariots and horses involved different techniques such as casting, welding, riveting, mounting, embedding and carving.

    The bronze chariots and horses were the earliest and most exquisitely made bronze valuables. They enjoy the highest class and have the most complete harnessing wares. They are also the largest bronze ware discovered in the history of world archaeology. The excavation of the bronze chariots and horses provides extremely valuable material and data for the textual research of the metallurgical technique, the mechanism of chariots and technological modeling of the Qin Dynasty.

    http://www.galenfrysinger.com/warriors_xian_china.htm

     

    They were just 1 carriot and 4 horses, not trying to overwelming you by the size of Han Chinese population at a time, fair enough? let alone 9th century Igbo items, you can try gathering the entire engineering elites of the current Igbo living in Nigeria today to try replicating a copy of this carriot/horse engineering feat, alone. Simple? not quite. Now see how many decades it would take for them to do so with 21st century technologies they have at disposal.

    Consider all above happpened 1,000 friggin years ahead of Igbo's (relatively) primitive little bronze pots and shells even appeared.

    And you try to justify with a straight face that that "rock" represented some "high tech"of metallurgy. Yeah, it/they may well be ahead of the rest of Africa, but compare it/them to imperial China, are you kidding Panda? ROFL

    Panda, I already know all that you have posted and more about the terracotta army so nothing you have posted is news to me. Nor is the information about the crossbows, swords, etc. new to me. But I do not think you understood my point. I would like to think you are not just a troll despite the derogatory comments about the art you made (for the record, evaluations of the technical complexity of the Igbo Ukwu art have been made in publications by experts and no one (credible) has denied that they represent a high achievement) and just state some details that rational people would take into account when making comparisons.

    As of the time that the terracotta army was made in the 3rd century BC the Igbo (or their ancestors, assuming that they even existed a distinct population or culture) may not have been up to 50,000 people – probably less. While the population of Qin China around that time was in the tens of millions. And if the population of the Igbo in the early 20th century is anything to go by, the Igbos in the 9th century AD definitely did not have anywhere the population of 3rd century BC China. Add to that the fact that China had direct influences from and access to other parts of Eurasia and it is clear that it is not actually an even or balanced race.

    You also seem to be excessively focused on the fact that the chariots are large. Sure, but then there is the possible external influence (from an artistic tradition which actually stretches all the way back to ancient Egypt as I mentioned in my previous comment) in making realistic life size figures to take into account plus the fact that Qin China was a much larger society in terms of area, population and resources than the Igbo ever were. So that the Chinese made more bronzes and made some of them much larger is not so surprising. But in terms of actual artistic complexity (which, admittedly, is subjective) I only see occasionally see Chinese bronzes here and there in books or online that match the best of the Igbo Ukwu art.

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    also

    @ Enrique Cardov-a :(you can google up any related sources, they are endless, from british mesuem or wiki Qin , Han , Tang China)

    ------------------------

    LoL. Calling panda a troll sounds like a good strategy, then as if by doing that you could mystically "win" the argument.

    1. you still have no idea of what you're talking about.

    2.you are still repeating you nonsencal points again and again, but that doesn't somehow make them true.

    Your central excuses are all false:

    False A: you accuse that Terracotta Army was influenced by Western Art. Panda refuted you false claim which tries to switch the concept of this discussion. It's not size that matters(assume that Qin copied Western size, ok?), it's the content, the bronze tech does. Terracotta army itself represents bronze technology in essence nunder the context of this discussion, not some full body-sized art you try to switch to . None of Terracotta Army's bronze technologeis were influenced by the West which at a time was still at its infancy.

    False B: you keep mentioning the Qin had much larger population size which made the difference. False, because population size does not matter at all here as one doesn't need a huge value chain to produce a high tech Metallurgy item. e.g. Mercedez Benz is much much bigger, has much more workers than Aston Martin or Lotus. Yet the latter two can produce racing cars with the similar sophistication as Merc, even though Merc can produce 10,000 racing cars, but the Lotus just need to produce 1 to equalise it. Similarly, Igno can represent 1 item, not matter how small it is , to compare with what Qin China Terracotta Army produced. So Igno names 1 piece, Qin China names 1 piece - size doesn't matter. Fair enough? That's exactly what Panda proposed and compared in my earlier posts.

    False C: Then you keep secretly switching to another concept of "artisitc complexity ". My...!
    We had never talked about artistic feel before, which again is another entire new concept and quite subjective too, since one can rightly argue that "I feel rap songs of my neighbour's 12-yrs-old have more 'artistic complexity' than Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture", so what? What Panda has compared has ALWAYS been bronze technologies - now those are objective. You said you knew what Terracotta Army was all about, you don't. 99.99999% of the world population have no darn clue of it. What are objective bronze technologies that any layman can objectively and instantly judge which is supeior tech with almost 100% accuracy?

    E.g. try to produce 20 small bronze canopy tubes with their thickness varied between 0.4 cm thick to 0.1 cm thin and with curvature on the top of each. Simple? you don't need 20 Igbo persons to do that if they know how.

    or E.g. try to produce 1 hair-thin copper wire with uniform thickness (0.5mm) without using forging, and join it into a circle. You don't need 3 Igbo engineers to achive that if they know how.

    or E.g. try to produce 1 bronze sword with 1.3 metre length. Simple? You don't need 50,ooo Igbo persons to achieve it, you probably only need 5 .

    Can they do any of those? Now those are what Panda has been talking about, those are the things that define objectively the stage of high tech sophistication of the Bronze Age.

    Honestly, whatever stuff you pull out of Igbo in 900AD would look like from the Stone Age, to most objective people, when compared to any of 200BC Qin China bronze horse or carriot.

    You find 1 piece remotely close to those of Qin China in technological sophistication, come back to humble Panda.

    Before that happens, Igbos could probably claim their superiority in Africa as Peter Frost seems to suggest which Panda largely agrees.

    What you don't do , however, is to try to brag those primitive Igbo 9th century rocks out of all porpotions in front of the true cutting-edge frontrunners of Metallurgy in that part of history:

    Qin China (Teracotta Army was >1,100 years ahead of Igbo 9th century rocks ), or

    Han China ( about 1,000 years ahead, already starting of Cast Iron-making and, soon after, Steel-making . Goodbye, primitive bronzeware!) , or

    Tang China (the same 9th century as those Igno rocks, but excuse Panda, Tang China at a time was already about 800 years well into advanced steel-making, meanwhile the Igbo still tried to figure out how to make some primitive paterned bronze pots with some dots, pauleeez!. it's like right now we are talking about 4G smartphones, while you come along bragging about how advanced your ancient analogue landline is. ROFL)

    (In 9th century, Panda is not entirely sure, but probably even the camel-riding Arabs were a country mile ahead of the Igbo in metallurgy, let alone Imperial China)

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @FirstPerson
    1. The Chinese terracotta statues may have been inspired by Hellenistic art actually. Not many people know this but there has been credible research on it.

    So the artistic progression would go like this:

    Egyptian art (which had a huge influence on Greek art) and West Asian/Mesopotamian art ----> Greek art (which had a huge influence on the art of other societies nearby especially following Alexander the Great's conquests) ----> Hellenistic influenced non-Greek societies, especially in the Iranian/Persian language speaking areas ----> Chinese terracotta warrior statues.

    I say that not to take anything away from the Chinese because their historical achievements are very great and they have many other achievements but it should be stated since you made the comparison that their terracotta warrior statues do not actually seem to have been achieved independent of significant foreign inspiration (look up the research of Lukas Nickel of the SOAS on the terracotta statues).

    2. The links given by you to examples of Chinese bronzes show works that are actually quite underwhelming compared to the best of the Igbo Ukwu art of which there are even better examples in a few books than the one Peter posted at the top of the article (though that snail shell is quite beautiful and detailed). Some of the other Igbo Ukwu bronzes have this kind of artistic detail and complexity for example:

    http://media-1.web.britannica.com/eb-media/28/42128-004-44F4608F.jpg

    Perhaps there are some much better Chinese bronzes not online but from what I have seen after looking around online and from what I remember from a few books the best Chinese bronzes only seem to occasionally match but not surpass the best Igbo Ukwu bronzes artistically.

    3. Finally the Chinese have always had a much much larger population than the Igbo have ever had plus access to trade with more groups in Eurasia. It would be rational to take this fact into account when comparing the pace of technological development between different cultures.

    More detail on this bronze carriot & 4 horses inside Terracotta Army, in case you have no clue (not offence, but it’s at least what appears to Panda) on what is true Metallurgy and Civilisation vís-a-vís that Igbo high tech “rock”:

    This kind of bronze chariots unearthed give people a new impression. Its complex process and sophisticated production surprise the whole world. The bronze chariot is with tent, 78cm wide and 88cm deep in the carriage. It is 4cm wider than the chariots referred before, but it is 40cm deeper than it.

    The carriage is enclosed, even the steering place is covered, so the people inside can talk directly with the groom. People inside can sit or lie down to have a rest. It equals to soft sleeper and people can enjoy their journey in it with ease.

    The interior equipment is more distinctive. The cushion inside the carriage is beautiful and painted. Archaeologists have found a square copper plate at the bottom of the carriage, whose size is almost the same as the bottom of the carriage. Its surface is painted with all kinds of colorful geometric patterns, with eight 3 cm long copper nails at the corners and central part for support. This is undoubtedly the ancient soft mat products. If there are two in the carriage, the vehicle will be more stable and comfortable. It can be said to be China’s first “sleeper car”.

    Archaeologists have discovered that the bronze chariot has a total of 3462 parts, of which 1742 are bronze pieces, 737 are gold ones and 983 are silver ones. Its total weight is 1241kg, of which gold castings are more than 3 kg, silver castings are more than 4 kg. The number of casting parts of the first kind is nearly the same. There are more than 5000 parts for the two kinds of chariots and the parts are all casted.

    Whether it is canopy cover, copper horse or warrior as large as 2 square meters, or little tubes as small as 0.2 square meters, they are finished in one cast. Take canopy cover for example, it is large and its thickness varies. It can be 0.4 cm thick or 0.1 cm thin and it has curvature on the top. It is difficult to finish in one cast today, not to mention the Qin Dynasty 2,200 years ago. The casting of bronze horses and warriors are also difficult for contemporary engineers. They are perfect in expression, personality and temperament, and they can compare with the best officer warriors. It is rare in bronze horse and warrior casting. For example, the copper bridle is connected with 82 small gold tubes and 78 small silver tubes, with each only 0.8cm. It can be compared to modern bracelet.

    The most surprising object is Ying Luo, hanging on the neck of the horse and made of hair-thin copper wire. Under the magnifier, the copper wire is with uniform thickness and without the trace of forging. It remains a secret how the thin copper wire (0.5 mm)can be made and joined into a circle.

    All in all, it is a miracle in making such perfect artifacts with bronze in a period without modern equipments. Moreover, it gives us the first hand information of the bowing warriors, chariot warriors and riding warriors 2,200 years ago and it is of significant meaning in ancient military research.

    http://www.beijingtourstoterracottawarriors.com/about-terra-cotta-warriors.html

    So the Panda Challenge is : today’s Igbo elites, try to make a copy of above themselves, alone, using 21st century technologies they have currently in Nigeria. See whether they can do it, and for how long it takes.

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    • Replies: @Enrique Cardova
    Laughable rubbish. Since when is a "trip advisor" type anonymous, lightweight website representative of anything? Next you'll be linking to Marvel Comics or fortune cookie blurbs for your "research." Here is what a real art museum, one of the most respected in the world, in its published catalog has to say about the art of that region, which is overall part of the Igbo zone. Benin City where this art was housed by the way is less than 100 miles from Igbo-Ukwu:

    The art of Benin first became known in Europe and America in 1897,
    following the Punitive Expedition. Because of their relatively natural-
    istic style and use of luxury materials, such as brass and ivory, they
    created a sensation among art historians, anthropologists, and collec-
    tors. Felix von Luschan, the anthropologist who acquired a vast
    collection of Benin art for the Berlin Museum fur Volkerkunde, wrote
    in appreciation, "These works from Benin are equal to the very finest
    examples of European casting technique. Benvenuto Cellini could not
    have cast them better, nor could anyone else before or after him, even
    up to the present day. Technically, these bronzes represent the very
    highest possible achievement" (von Luschan 1901:10, cited in New
    York, Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1990:21).


    FROM: ROYAL ART OF BENIN
    The Metropolitan Museum of Art: The Perls Collection in The Metropolitan Museum of Art

    Kate Ezra

    This publication was issued in connection with the exhibition Royal Art of Benin from the Perls Collection held at The Metropolitan Museum of Art
    from January 16 through September 13, 1992. Published by The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York.

    https://archive.org/stream/RoyalArtofBeninThePerlsCollection/RoyalArtofBeninThePerlsCollection_djvu.txt

    So much for your er, "challenge"..
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @FirstPerson
    1. The Chinese terracotta statues may have been inspired by Hellenistic art actually. Not many people know this but there has been credible research on it.

    So the artistic progression would go like this:

    Egyptian art (which had a huge influence on Greek art) and West Asian/Mesopotamian art ----> Greek art (which had a huge influence on the art of other societies nearby especially following Alexander the Great's conquests) ----> Hellenistic influenced non-Greek societies, especially in the Iranian/Persian language speaking areas ----> Chinese terracotta warrior statues.

    I say that not to take anything away from the Chinese because their historical achievements are very great and they have many other achievements but it should be stated since you made the comparison that their terracotta warrior statues do not actually seem to have been achieved independent of significant foreign inspiration (look up the research of Lukas Nickel of the SOAS on the terracotta statues).

    2. The links given by you to examples of Chinese bronzes show works that are actually quite underwhelming compared to the best of the Igbo Ukwu art of which there are even better examples in a few books than the one Peter posted at the top of the article (though that snail shell is quite beautiful and detailed). Some of the other Igbo Ukwu bronzes have this kind of artistic detail and complexity for example:

    http://media-1.web.britannica.com/eb-media/28/42128-004-44F4608F.jpg

    Perhaps there are some much better Chinese bronzes not online but from what I have seen after looking around online and from what I remember from a few books the best Chinese bronzes only seem to occasionally match but not surpass the best Igbo Ukwu bronzes artistically.

    3. Finally the Chinese have always had a much much larger population than the Igbo have ever had plus access to trade with more groups in Eurasia. It would be rational to take this fact into account when comparing the pace of technological development between different cultures.

    1. Your quotation of Lukas Nickel of the SOAS on his speculation that the full body size of the terracotta army might be inspired Hellenistic art has jack to do with the purpose why Panda put them there.

    Even assume that Lukas Nickel’s speculation is entire true, it’s like Panda is inspired to write my thesis on a A-4 paper instead of A-6 one. Does it imply something? Nothing. The content of my thesis has jack to do with which size of paper Panda is writing on.

    What Terracotta Army has shown is at the completely different league on many fronts, for example,

    –Terracotta Army makers beat Toyato by 2,000 years:

    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1211/01112012-terracotta-army-toyotism

    —Terracotta Army reveals a awesome fighting machine

    http://www.georgianewsday.com/news/regional/192433-terracotta-army-was-an-awesome-fighting-machine-with-weapons-so-powerful-they-could-kill-an-enemy-with-a-single-arrow.html

    –Terracotta Army’s crossbow bronze trigger mechanism engineering design was about 2,200 years ahead of its time, almost twice as powerful as modern rifle:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/peoplesdaily/article-3004149/2-200-year-old-crossbow-powerful-modern-day-assault-rifle-discovered-Terracotta-Warriors.html

    –Terracotta Army’s aerodynamic arrow-heads were the result of astonishing precison engineering and manufacturing:

    http://www.ai-journal.com/articles/10.5334/ai.1316/

    – Terracotta Army’s bronze sword lenghth alone maked the one of the highest feats of Bronze Age manufactoring knowhow:

    http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/shaanxi/xian/terra_cotta_army/weapon_1.htm

    Does any of above have anything to do with Lukas Nickel ‘s speculation of Hellenistic art? Panda’s point was that Qin’s Terracotta Army ( 221BC) is a high tech engineering feat, representing the peak of Bronze Age of Human civilisation at a time (not an ART, or far beyond vitual art!).

    2. if point1 hasn’t convinced you yet, then this point 2 – Panda’s real purpose of posting terracotta Army in the earlier post – would definately made 9th cedntury Igbo bronze items appear amateurs at best:

    The chariots and horses are exact imitations of actual chariot, horse and driver in half life-size. The chariots and horses are composed of 3,400 bits (of which 1742 are bronze pieces) . The bronze chariot is 3.17 meters long, 1.06 meters high. The bronze horse is 65–67 centimeters high, 1. 2 meters long. Their weights vary from 177 kilograms, the lightest, to 212.9 kilograms, the heaviest. The total weight of the chariot, the horse and the driver reach to 1,243 kilograms.

    The main body is cast of bronze. There are altogether 1,720 pieces of gold and silver decoration on the chariots and horses, with a total weight of seven kilograms of silver and gold wares. One is compelled to appreciate the high technology, the real artistic modeling in great admiration.

    For instance, the umbrella-like canopy on the top is only four millimeter thick, the window one millimeter thick, with many ventilation holes. The horse tassels were made of bronze thread as thin as a hair, the diameter of which is only 0. 1 m. m.. The horse necklets were welded together with 42 nodes of gold and 42 nodes of silver. Archaeologists can see the welding joints only with the help of magnifiers. The horse halters, made of a gold tube and a silver tube, were joined with a form of snap fasteners. In the halters, there is a pin. When the pin was pulled out, the halters could be removed completely. According to primary research, it is found that the making of the bronze chariots and horses involved different techniques such as casting, welding, riveting, mounting, embedding and carving.

    The bronze chariots and horses were the earliest and most exquisitely made bronze valuables. They enjoy the highest class and have the most complete harnessing wares. They are also the largest bronze ware discovered in the history of world archaeology. The excavation of the bronze chariots and horses provides extremely valuable material and data for the textual research of the metallurgical technique, the mechanism of chariots and technological modeling of the Qin Dynasty.

    http://www.galenfrysinger.com/warriors_xian_china.htm

    They were just 1 carriot and 4 horses, not trying to overwelming you by the size of Han Chinese population at a time, fair enough? let alone 9th century Igbo items, you can try gathering the entire engineering elites of the current Igbo living in Nigeria today to try replicating a copy of this carriot/horse engineering feat, alone. Simple? not quite. Now see how many decades it would take for them to do so with 21st century technologies they have at disposal.

    Consider all above happpened 1,000 friggin years ahead of Igbo’s (relatively) primitive little bronze pots and shells even appeared.

    And you try to justify with a straight face that that “rock” represented some “high tech”of metallurgy. Yeah, it/they may well be ahead of the rest of Africa, but compare it/them to imperial China, are you kidding Panda? ROFL

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    Panda, I already know all that you have posted and more about the terracotta army so nothing you have posted is news to me. Nor is the information about the crossbows, swords, etc. new to me. But I do not think you understood my point. I would like to think you are not just a troll despite the derogatory comments about the art you made (for the record, evaluations of the technical complexity of the Igbo Ukwu art have been made in publications by experts and no one (credible) has denied that they represent a high achievement) and just state some details that rational people would take into account when making comparisons.

    As of the time that the terracotta army was made in the 3rd century BC the Igbo (or their ancestors, assuming that they even existed a distinct population or culture) may not have been up to 50,000 people - probably less. While the population of Qin China around that time was in the tens of millions. And if the population of the Igbo in the early 20th century is anything to go by, the Igbos in the 9th century AD definitely did not have anywhere the population of 3rd century BC China. Add to that the fact that China had direct influences from and access to other parts of Eurasia and it is clear that it is not actually an even or balanced race.

    You also seem to be excessively focused on the fact that the chariots are large. Sure, but then there is the possible external influence (from an artistic tradition which actually stretches all the way back to ancient Egypt as I mentioned in my previous comment) in making realistic life size figures to take into account plus the fact that Qin China was a much larger society in terms of area, population and resources than the Igbo ever were. So that the Chinese made more bronzes and made some of them much larger is not so surprising. But in terms of actual artistic complexity (which, admittedly, is subjective) I only see occasionally see Chinese bronzes here and there in books or online that match the best of the Igbo Ukwu art.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @vinteuil
    "Truth," my friend: my first thought was that you might want to step away from the bong before you post again.

    But then curiosity got the better of me.

    Obviously, in your mind, concern over the condition of my beard = me asking for evidence that any of the most prominent commenters here believe what you say they do.

    But ??? = me getting my head removed? That's a puzzler. Was it your discovery of new commenter Qasim?

    But ??? = me getting my head removed? That’s a puzzler. Was it your discovery of new commenter Qasim?

    The idea, Vinteuil-san, is to utilize your introspection, long enough for the answer to appear upon it’s own.

    If I gave it away, it wouldn’t be Zen.

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    • Replies: @vinteuil
    "The idea, Vinteuil-san, is to utilize your introspection, long enough for the answer to appear upon it’s own."

    Noted.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @syonredux

    There is a great story I read once about some educated Methodist Preachers, Doctorate types, going on a trip to Japan to study Zen in, In , I believe it was, the 18th century.
     
    Methodist preachers in 18th century Japan?That would have been more than a bit problematic:

    Sakoku ("locked country") was the foreign relations policy of Japan under which no foreigner could enter nor could any Japanese leave the country on penalty of death. The policy was enacted by the Tokugawa shogunate under Tokugawa Iemitsu through a number of edicts and policies from 1633–39 and remained in effect until 1853 with the arrival of the Black Ships of Commodore Matthew Perry and the forcible opening of Japan to Western trade. It was still illegal to leave Japan until the Meiji Restoration (1868). It was preceded by an era commonly referred to as Sengoku, or the Warring States period of Japanese history.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku

    Jokes need good set-ups

    Now if you’ll re-read my post, I said that I BELIEVE it was the 18th century. It was in fact the 19th.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Japan

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Now if you’ll re-read my post, I said that I BELIEVE it was the 18th century. It was in fact the 19th.
     
    Yes, but that elementary mistake ruined the joke.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @PandaAtWar
    So Peter you call that piece of rock (or bronze snail shell) super intelligent Igbo "metallurgy" of 9th century? ROFL

    Here, let's check out the real metallurgy:

    --- 12th-11th centuries BCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxingdui

    ---c. 1000 BC: Zhou Dynasty metallurgy : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_dynasty

    -- 206 BC: Qin Dynasty metallurgy:

    (Qin marked the peak of metallurgy of bronze items.Try compare that bronze snail of Igbo to 1,000 years earlier Qin Dynasty bronze works of Han Chinese. Not even funny. )

    http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/shaanxi/xian/terra_cotta_army/weapon_1.htm

    http://pinstake.com/is-a-collection-of-terracotta-sculptures-depicting-the-armies-of-qi/aHR0cDp8fHd3d15lYXN5Y2hpbmF0cmF2ZWxwbGFubmVyXmNvbXx3cC1jb250ZW50fHVwbG9hZHN8MjAxNHwwMnxxaW4tc2hpLWh1YW5nLXRlcnJhY290dGEtYXJteS0xXmpwZw==/


    -- 206 BCE – 220 CE: Han dynasty metallurgy: (shall we go for iron and steel - making of han Dynasty?)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_of_the_Han_dynasty

    http://donwagner.dk/EncIt/EncIt.html

    ...

    What were han Chinese doing in comparable 9th century - Tang Dynasty:

    http://www.wilsoncollection.org/2013/11/the-bronze-age-c.html

    Now that, is, metallurgy

    1. The Chinese terracotta statues may have been inspired by Hellenistic art actually. Not many people know this but there has been credible research on it.

    So the artistic progression would go like this:

    Egyptian art (which had a huge influence on Greek art) and West Asian/Mesopotamian art —-> Greek art (which had a huge influence on the art of other societies nearby especially following Alexander the Great’s conquests) —-> Hellenistic influenced non-Greek societies, especially in the Iranian/Persian language speaking areas —-> Chinese terracotta warrior statues.

    I say that not to take anything away from the Chinese because their historical achievements are very great and they have many other achievements but it should be stated since you made the comparison that their terracotta warrior statues do not actually seem to have been achieved independent of significant foreign inspiration (look up the research of Lukas Nickel of the SOAS on the terracotta statues).

    2. The links given by you to examples of Chinese bronzes show works that are actually quite underwhelming compared to the best of the Igbo Ukwu art of which there are even better examples in a few books than the one Peter posted at the top of the article (though that snail shell is quite beautiful and detailed). Some of the other Igbo Ukwu bronzes have this kind of artistic detail and complexity for example:

    Perhaps there are some much better Chinese bronzes not online but from what I have seen after looking around online and from what I remember from a few books the best Chinese bronzes only seem to occasionally match but not surpass the best Igbo Ukwu bronzes artistically.

    3. Finally the Chinese have always had a much much larger population than the Igbo have ever had plus access to trade with more groups in Eurasia. It would be rational to take this fact into account when comparing the pace of technological development between different cultures.

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    1. Your quotation of Lukas Nickel of the SOAS on his speculation that the full body size of the terracotta army might be inspired Hellenistic art has jack to do with the purpose why Panda put them there.

    Even assume that Lukas Nickel's speculation is entire true, it's like Panda is inspired to write my thesis on a A-4 paper instead of A-6 one. Does it imply something? Nothing. The content of my thesis has jack to do with which size of paper Panda is writing on.

    What Terracotta Army has shown is at the completely different league on many fronts, for example,

    --Terracotta Army makers beat Toyato by 2,000 years:

    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1211/01112012-terracotta-army-toyotism

    ---Terracotta Army reveals a awesome fighting machine

    http://www.georgianewsday.com/news/regional/192433-terracotta-army-was-an-awesome-fighting-machine-with-weapons-so-powerful-they-could-kill-an-enemy-with-a-single-arrow.html

    --Terracotta Army's crossbow bronze trigger mechanism engineering design was about 2,200 years ahead of its time, almost twice as powerful as modern rifle:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/peoplesdaily/article-3004149/2-200-year-old-crossbow-powerful-modern-day-assault-rifle-discovered-Terracotta-Warriors.html

    --Terracotta Army's aerodynamic arrow-heads were the result of astonishing precison engineering and manufacturing:

    http://www.ai-journal.com/articles/10.5334/ai.1316/

    -- Terracotta Army's bronze sword lenghth alone maked the one of the highest feats of Bronze Age manufactoring knowhow:

    http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/shaanxi/xian/terra_cotta_army/weapon_1.htm


    Does any of above have anything to do with Lukas Nickel 's speculation of Hellenistic art? Panda's point was that Qin's Terracotta Army ( 221BC) is a high tech engineering feat, representing the peak of Bronze Age of Human civilisation at a time (not an ART, or far beyond vitual art!).


    2. if point1 hasn't convinced you yet, then this point 2 - Panda's real purpose of posting terracotta Army in the earlier post - would definately made 9th cedntury Igbo bronze items appear amateurs at best:


    The chariots and horses are exact imitations of actual chariot, horse and driver in half life-size. The chariots and horses are composed of 3,400 bits (of which 1742 are bronze pieces) . The bronze chariot is 3.17 meters long, 1.06 meters high. The bronze horse is 65--67 centimeters high, 1. 2 meters long. Their weights vary from 177 kilograms, the lightest, to 212.9 kilograms, the heaviest. The total weight of the chariot, the horse and the driver reach to 1,243 kilograms.

    The main body is cast of bronze. There are altogether 1,720 pieces of gold and silver decoration on the chariots and horses, with a total weight of seven kilograms of silver and gold wares. One is compelled to appreciate the high technology, the real artistic modeling in great admiration.

    For instance, the umbrella-like canopy on the top is only four millimeter thick, the window one millimeter thick, with many ventilation holes. The horse tassels were made of bronze thread as thin as a hair, the diameter of which is only 0. 1 m. m.. The horse necklets were welded together with 42 nodes of gold and 42 nodes of silver. Archaeologists can see the welding joints only with the help of magnifiers. The horse halters, made of a gold tube and a silver tube, were joined with a form of snap fasteners. In the halters, there is a pin. When the pin was pulled out, the halters could be removed completely. According to primary research, it is found that the making of the bronze chariots and horses involved different techniques such as casting, welding, riveting, mounting, embedding and carving.

    The bronze chariots and horses were the earliest and most exquisitely made bronze valuables. They enjoy the highest class and have the most complete harnessing wares. They are also the largest bronze ware discovered in the history of world archaeology. The excavation of the bronze chariots and horses provides extremely valuable material and data for the textual research of the metallurgical technique, the mechanism of chariots and technological modeling of the Qin Dynasty.

    http://www.galenfrysinger.com/warriors_xian_china.htm

     

    They were just 1 carriot and 4 horses, not trying to overwelming you by the size of Han Chinese population at a time, fair enough? let alone 9th century Igbo items, you can try gathering the entire engineering elites of the current Igbo living in Nigeria today to try replicating a copy of this carriot/horse engineering feat, alone. Simple? not quite. Now see how many decades it would take for them to do so with 21st century technologies they have at disposal.

    Consider all above happpened 1,000 friggin years ahead of Igbo's (relatively) primitive little bronze pots and shells even appeared.

    And you try to justify with a straight face that that "rock" represented some "high tech"of metallurgy. Yeah, it/they may well be ahead of the rest of Africa, but compare it/them to imperial China, are you kidding Panda? ROFL

    , @PandaAtWar
    More detail on this bronze carriot & 4 horses inside Terracotta Army, in case you have no clue (not offence, but it's at least what appears to Panda) on what is true Metallurgy and Civilisation vís-a-vís that Igbo high tech "rock":

    This kind of bronze chariots unearthed give people a new impression. Its complex process and sophisticated production surprise the whole world. The bronze chariot is with tent, 78cm wide and 88cm deep in the carriage. It is 4cm wider than the chariots referred before, but it is 40cm deeper than it.

    The carriage is enclosed, even the steering place is covered, so the people inside can talk directly with the groom. People inside can sit or lie down to have a rest. It equals to soft sleeper and people can enjoy their journey in it with ease.

    The interior equipment is more distinctive. The cushion inside the carriage is beautiful and painted. Archaeologists have found a square copper plate at the bottom of the carriage, whose size is almost the same as the bottom of the carriage. Its surface is painted with all kinds of colorful geometric patterns, with eight 3 cm long copper nails at the corners and central part for support. This is undoubtedly the ancient soft mat products. If there are two in the carriage, the vehicle will be more stable and comfortable. It can be said to be China’s first “sleeper car”.

    Archaeologists have discovered that the bronze chariot has a total of 3462 parts, of which 1742 are bronze pieces, 737 are gold ones and 983 are silver ones. Its total weight is 1241kg, of which gold castings are more than 3 kg, silver castings are more than 4 kg. The number of casting parts of the first kind is nearly the same. There are more than 5000 parts for the two kinds of chariots and the parts are all casted.

    Whether it is canopy cover, copper horse or warrior as large as 2 square meters, or little tubes as small as 0.2 square meters, they are finished in one cast. Take canopy cover for example, it is large and its thickness varies. It can be 0.4 cm thick or 0.1 cm thin and it has curvature on the top. It is difficult to finish in one cast today, not to mention the Qin Dynasty 2,200 years ago. The casting of bronze horses and warriors are also difficult for contemporary engineers. They are perfect in expression, personality and temperament, and they can compare with the best officer warriors. It is rare in bronze horse and warrior casting. For example, the copper bridle is connected with 82 small gold tubes and 78 small silver tubes, with each only 0.8cm. It can be compared to modern bracelet.

    The most surprising object is Ying Luo, hanging on the neck of the horse and made of hair-thin copper wire. Under the magnifier, the copper wire is with uniform thickness and without the trace of forging. It remains a secret how the thin copper wire (0.5 mm)can be made and joined into a circle.

    All in all, it is a miracle in making such perfect artifacts with bronze in a period without modern equipments. Moreover, it gives us the first hand information of the bowing warriors, chariot warriors and riding warriors 2,200 years ago and it is of significant meaning in ancient military research.

    http://www.beijingtourstoterracottawarriors.com/about-terra-cotta-warriors.html
     

    So the Panda Challenge is : today's Igbo elites, try to make a copy of above themselves, alone, using 21st century technologies they have currently in Nigeria. See whether they can do it, and for how long it takes.
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  • @Peter Frost
    If that’s the case, what did the hausa create in these regards that was absent or much less common before that date?

    You've got it backwards. The Hausa were creating nothing in metallurgy that was comparable to what the Igbo were doing in the 9th century. And when the Hausa did begin doing comparable work, it was under the influence of Middle Eastern traditions of metallurgy.

    the 9th century could be said to be nearing the beginning of the central middle ages, but either way, it was a long time after the major iron production of 765 BC.

    You're surprised that there would be a delay of some 1,600 years between iron smelting and advanced metallurgy? Isn't that consistent with what we see elsewhere?

    The other groups that have been brought up in these comments, such as the Yoruba, Edo, Hausa, but arguably many others in West Africa.

    You were saying that other African groups showed a record of academic achievement similar to that of the Ibo. Please name them.

    Regardless, I think it could be argued that mercantile positions back then were not as cognitively demanding as they claim, and this is what Ferguson heavily touches upon.


    Actually, he doesn't. His argument was that "wealthy" Ashkenazi Jews were too small a proportion of the population to produce the kind of selective effect that Cochran et al. envisioned. In reality, the selection wasn't produced by the "wealthy." It was produced by differential survival and reproductive success among the bulk of the population -- small family shops that often worked on contract for other traders.

    Regardless, the wikipedia article doesn’t say anything about there being arab and berber traders in Benin when the portuguese arrived

    "After fifty years of coastal exploration, the Portuguese finally reached Elmina in 1471, during the reign of King Afonso V. However, because Portuguese royalty had lost interest in African exploration as a result of meager returns, the Guinea trade was put under the oversight of the Portuguese trader, Fernão Gomes. Upon reaching present day Elmina, Gomes discovered a thriving gold trade already established among the natives and visiting Arab and Berber traders."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmina_Castle#Pre-Portuguese

    This is standard history. European and Muslim traders altered the dynamics of West African societies by producing an inflow of new wealth, which was disproportionately monopolized by chieftains. This wealth enabled them to expand their territorial base and become patrons for works of art, monuments, etc. If you wish to disagree, fine. This point is tangential to our discussion, and I'm puzzled why you insist on it.

    Still, how can we be sure the art at Igbo-Ukwu didn’t involve patronage?

    We can be "sure" that it was less of a factor than it was in the centralized kingdoms that arose much later in other parts of West Africa.

    I think the fundamental problem here is that you have trouble believing that natural selection can produce anything significant over the time scale in question (approx. one thousand years). This is why you consider genetic drift to be more plausible, even though genetic drift is much slower and more dependent on bottlenecks (for which we have no evidence).

    Keep in mind that the pace of human genetic evolution increased by over a hundred-fold some 10,000 years ago. Genetically speaking, much more has happened over the past 10, ooo years in our species than over the previous 100,000. I could take you by the hand and walk you through the math of gene-culture coevolution, but I think it would be better for you to read up on the subject. Yes, what I'm talking about is theoretically feasible.

    ““After fifty years of coastal exploration, the Portuguese finally reached Elmina in 1471, during the reign of King Afonso V. However, because Portuguese royalty had lost interest in African exploration as a result of meager returns, the Guinea trade was put under the oversight of the Portuguese trader, Fernão Gomes. Upon reaching present day Elmina, Gomes discovered a thriving gold trade already established among the natives and visiting Arab and Berber traders.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmina_Castle#Pre-Portuguese

    This is standard history. European and Muslim traders altered the dynamics of West African societies by producing an inflow of new wealth, which was disproportionately monopolized by chieftains. This wealth enabled them to expand their territorial base and become patrons for works of art, monuments, etc. If you wish to disagree, fine. This point is tangential to our discussion, and I’m puzzled why you insist on it.”

    This is wrong again. Elmina in Ghana is hundreds miles from Benin, which is the kingdom you and him were discussing and no Gomes did not find “visiting Arab and Berber traders” at Elmina. Wikipedia is wrong again. Stop just relying on Wikipedia. If you want to get an idea of who was actually visiting Elmina for trade when the Portuguese arrived from a professional source read the article “Wangara, Akan and Portuguese in the Fifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries. 1. The Matter of Bitu” by Ivor Wilks.

    We can be “sure” that it was less of a factor than it was in the centralized kingdoms that arose much later in other parts of West Africa.

    This is poorly reasoned. You do not know whether there was a centralized kingdom there or not to be “sure” of anything. You may not have not read about the sites in detail but it remains a fact that the professional archaeologist who excavated the Igbo Ukwu artifacts, Thurstan Shaw, believed they were made by a kingdom and he noted in his work that this particular part of the Igbo area did in fact have traditions of a divine kingship in there. It may very well have been a centralized kingdom.

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  • “You’re surprised that there would be a delay of some 1,600 years between iron smelting and advanced metallurgy? Isn’t that consistent with what we see elsewhere?”

    It probably is, but the point is just how little else there is in the history of the Igbo. They don’t seem like they were doing or experiencing much else.

    “You were saying that other African groups showed a record of academic achievement similar to that of the Ibo. Please name them.”

    In this case, I was talking about pre-modern historical achievement with regards to state building, government, art, architecture etc. I do not know the exact nature of what african ethnic groups are over-represented academically in western countries, but I get the impression many Nigerian immigrants in Britian, the US etc. are of Yoruba descent atleast.

    “Actually, he doesn’t. His argument was that “wealthy” Ashkenazi Jews were too small a proportion of the population to produce the kind of selective effect that Cochran et al. envisioned. In reality, the selection wasn’t produced by the “wealthy.” It was produced by differential survival and reproductive success among the bulk of the population — small family shops that often worked on contract for other traders.”

    I don’t know if that’s the whole of his argument- he also argues that the nature of the work was not that complex and did not require above average intelligence, and that jews were not money lenders for extended periods of time, among many other things.

    Elmina is in Ghana, not Nigeria, and I am not one to dispute the idea the Akan kingdoms were strongly economically influenced by the muslim states further north with the gold trade (but general cultural influence from them was still not that substantial).

    I insist on it because it’s significant to your argument that the other Nigerian groups developed as they did due to outside help, whereas the Igbo did it much more on their own. You have yet to present much evidence this was the case.

    “We can be “sure” that it was less of a factor than it was in the centralized kingdoms that arose much later in other parts of West Africa.”

    And what do you base this on? Igbo art from that period had some of the major hallmarks Benin and Ife art did, being centralized in one place and associated with divine kingship, and only lasting for a few centuries and eventually forgotten. What really set them apart?

    I don’t have trouble believing natural selection can produce those changes (and no, you don’t need to “take me by the hand”), but I am highly skeptical towards some of the dynamics put forth by people in this field. I already mentioned my qualms with the demands of mercantile positions, and I think this could be further exemplified by the likely high intelligence of many south asian groups. What sort of demands could have selected for their intelligence? There seem to be many groups in South Asia who are of very high IQ;, and the Parsi are a good example, who are very small in number yet have achieved very, very disproportionately. I think it might be the case they are smarter than the Ashkenazi, who’s IQ seems to be 110. What sort of pressures could have really been so demanding in the past?

    There is also the phenomenon of brain size in earlier humans being much larger than it is now, and this being the case even in africa and australia. You think this doesn’t have much to do with intelligence, but information storage (atleast in the case of northern hunter-gatherers, but again, this has been found in africa and australia). However, the correlation between brain size and intelligence in humans is robust, and is replicable in primates and many other organisms. There are many people alive today with brain sizes that equal or exceed the average for humans back then, and this is often correlated with higher intelligence, but under your model, if we were to take people from back then (or Siberians and Inuits) and measure their brain sizes with IQ scores, they wouldn’t correlate as well. In cases like this, I honestly think some sort of drift is more plausible.

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  • @Truth
    There is a great story I read once about some educated Methodist Preachers, Doctorate types, going on a trip to Japan to study Zen in, In , I believe it was, the 18th century.

    They spend their time whore-mongering with the Japanese girls, getting wasted on sakki, demanding things, and not taking baths. These were of course their customs, and they were amongst heathens, so why wouldn't they take a little advantage?

    Finally after some time, they got around to a little bit of philosophical discussion with the monks, however instead of trying to understand, one of the Christians took it upon himself to play "faith gotcha" with them, asking the sort of philosophical questions for which there is not answer such as "If God is all-powerful, can he create a rock to heavy for himself to lift."

    The monk, being confused by the foreigner's style of "mutual learning", stopped him for a second and asked him:

    "Sir, why is it that you are so concerned about the condition of your beard, when the executioner long ago removed your head?

    “Truth,” my friend: my first thought was that you might want to step away from the bong before you post again.

    But then curiosity got the better of me.

    Obviously, in your mind, concern over the condition of my beard = me asking for evidence that any of the most prominent commenters here believe what you say they do.

    But ??? = me getting my head removed? That’s a puzzler. Was it your discovery of new commenter Qasim?

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    • Replies: @Truth

    But ??? = me getting my head removed? That’s a puzzler. Was it your discovery of new commenter Qasim?
     
    The idea, Vinteuil-san, is to utilize your introspection, long enough for the answer to appear upon it's own.

    If I gave it away, it wouldn't be Zen.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Truth
    There is a great story I read once about some educated Methodist Preachers, Doctorate types, going on a trip to Japan to study Zen in, In , I believe it was, the 18th century.

    They spend their time whore-mongering with the Japanese girls, getting wasted on sakki, demanding things, and not taking baths. These were of course their customs, and they were amongst heathens, so why wouldn't they take a little advantage?

    Finally after some time, they got around to a little bit of philosophical discussion with the monks, however instead of trying to understand, one of the Christians took it upon himself to play "faith gotcha" with them, asking the sort of philosophical questions for which there is not answer such as "If God is all-powerful, can he create a rock to heavy for himself to lift."

    The monk, being confused by the foreigner's style of "mutual learning", stopped him for a second and asked him:

    "Sir, why is it that you are so concerned about the condition of your beard, when the executioner long ago removed your head?

    There is a great story I read once about some educated Methodist Preachers, Doctorate types, going on a trip to Japan to study Zen in, In , I believe it was, the 18th century.

    Methodist preachers in 18th century Japan?That would have been more than a bit problematic:

    Sakoku (“locked country”) was the foreign relations policy of Japan under which no foreigner could enter nor could any Japanese leave the country on penalty of death. The policy was enacted by the Tokugawa shogunate under Tokugawa Iemitsu through a number of edicts and policies from 1633–39 and remained in effect until 1853 with the arrival of the Black Ships of Commodore Matthew Perry and the forcible opening of Japan to Western trade. It was still illegal to leave Japan until the Meiji Restoration (1868). It was preceded by an era commonly referred to as Sengoku, or the Warring States period of Japanese history.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku

    Jokes need good set-ups

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    • Replies: @Truth
    Now if you'll re-read my post, I said that I BELIEVE it was the 18th century. It was in fact the 19th.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Japan
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    If that’s the case, what did the hausa create in these regards that was absent or much less common before that date?

    You've got it backwards. The Hausa were creating nothing in metallurgy that was comparable to what the Igbo were doing in the 9th century. And when the Hausa did begin doing comparable work, it was under the influence of Middle Eastern traditions of metallurgy.

    the 9th century could be said to be nearing the beginning of the central middle ages, but either way, it was a long time after the major iron production of 765 BC.

    You're surprised that there would be a delay of some 1,600 years between iron smelting and advanced metallurgy? Isn't that consistent with what we see elsewhere?

    The other groups that have been brought up in these comments, such as the Yoruba, Edo, Hausa, but arguably many others in West Africa.

    You were saying that other African groups showed a record of academic achievement similar to that of the Ibo. Please name them.

    Regardless, I think it could be argued that mercantile positions back then were not as cognitively demanding as they claim, and this is what Ferguson heavily touches upon.


    Actually, he doesn't. His argument was that "wealthy" Ashkenazi Jews were too small a proportion of the population to produce the kind of selective effect that Cochran et al. envisioned. In reality, the selection wasn't produced by the "wealthy." It was produced by differential survival and reproductive success among the bulk of the population -- small family shops that often worked on contract for other traders.

    Regardless, the wikipedia article doesn’t say anything about there being arab and berber traders in Benin when the portuguese arrived

    "After fifty years of coastal exploration, the Portuguese finally reached Elmina in 1471, during the reign of King Afonso V. However, because Portuguese royalty had lost interest in African exploration as a result of meager returns, the Guinea trade was put under the oversight of the Portuguese trader, Fernão Gomes. Upon reaching present day Elmina, Gomes discovered a thriving gold trade already established among the natives and visiting Arab and Berber traders."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmina_Castle#Pre-Portuguese

    This is standard history. European and Muslim traders altered the dynamics of West African societies by producing an inflow of new wealth, which was disproportionately monopolized by chieftains. This wealth enabled them to expand their territorial base and become patrons for works of art, monuments, etc. If you wish to disagree, fine. This point is tangential to our discussion, and I'm puzzled why you insist on it.

    Still, how can we be sure the art at Igbo-Ukwu didn’t involve patronage?

    We can be "sure" that it was less of a factor than it was in the centralized kingdoms that arose much later in other parts of West Africa.

    I think the fundamental problem here is that you have trouble believing that natural selection can produce anything significant over the time scale in question (approx. one thousand years). This is why you consider genetic drift to be more plausible, even though genetic drift is much slower and more dependent on bottlenecks (for which we have no evidence).

    Keep in mind that the pace of human genetic evolution increased by over a hundred-fold some 10,000 years ago. Genetically speaking, much more has happened over the past 10, ooo years in our species than over the previous 100,000. I could take you by the hand and walk you through the math of gene-culture coevolution, but I think it would be better for you to read up on the subject. Yes, what I'm talking about is theoretically feasible.

    So Peter you call that piece of rock (or bronze snail shell) super intelligent Igbo “metallurgy” of 9th century? ROFL

    Here, let’s check out the real metallurgy:

    — 12th-11th centuries BCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxingdui

    —c. 1000 BC: Zhou Dynasty metallurgy : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_dynasty

    – 206 BC: Qin Dynasty metallurgy:

    (Qin marked the peak of metallurgy of bronze items.Try compare that bronze snail of Igbo to 1,000 years earlier Qin Dynasty bronze works of Han Chinese. Not even funny. )

    http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/shaanxi/xian/terra_cotta_army/weapon_1.htm

    http://pinstake.com/is-a-collection-of-terracotta-sculptures-depicting-the-armies-of-qi/aHR0cDp8fHd3d15lYXN5Y2hpbmF0cmF2ZWxwbGFubmVyXmNvbXx3cC1jb250ZW50fHVwbG9hZHN8MjAxNHwwMnxxaW4tc2hpLWh1YW5nLXRlcnJhY290dGEtYXJteS0xXmpwZw==/

    – 206 BCE – 220 CE: Han dynasty metallurgy: (shall we go for iron and steel – making of han Dynasty?)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_of_the_Han_dynasty

    http://donwagner.dk/EncIt/EncIt.html

    What were han Chinese doing in comparable 9th century – Tang Dynasty:

    http://www.wilsoncollection.org/2013/11/the-bronze-age-c.html

    Now that, is, metallurgy

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    1. The Chinese terracotta statues may have been inspired by Hellenistic art actually. Not many people know this but there has been credible research on it.

    So the artistic progression would go like this:

    Egyptian art (which had a huge influence on Greek art) and West Asian/Mesopotamian art ----> Greek art (which had a huge influence on the art of other societies nearby especially following Alexander the Great's conquests) ----> Hellenistic influenced non-Greek societies, especially in the Iranian/Persian language speaking areas ----> Chinese terracotta warrior statues.

    I say that not to take anything away from the Chinese because their historical achievements are very great and they have many other achievements but it should be stated since you made the comparison that their terracotta warrior statues do not actually seem to have been achieved independent of significant foreign inspiration (look up the research of Lukas Nickel of the SOAS on the terracotta statues).

    2. The links given by you to examples of Chinese bronzes show works that are actually quite underwhelming compared to the best of the Igbo Ukwu art of which there are even better examples in a few books than the one Peter posted at the top of the article (though that snail shell is quite beautiful and detailed). Some of the other Igbo Ukwu bronzes have this kind of artistic detail and complexity for example:

    http://media-1.web.britannica.com/eb-media/28/42128-004-44F4608F.jpg

    Perhaps there are some much better Chinese bronzes not online but from what I have seen after looking around online and from what I remember from a few books the best Chinese bronzes only seem to occasionally match but not surpass the best Igbo Ukwu bronzes artistically.

    3. Finally the Chinese have always had a much much larger population than the Igbo have ever had plus access to trade with more groups in Eurasia. It would be rational to take this fact into account when comparing the pace of technological development between different cultures.

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  • How did this make it through? I’m surprised this site doesn’t have a report feature.

    It doesn’t. I have no control over the comments. Unfortunately, it’s that kind of comment that gets me in trouble with other people.

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  • If that’s the case, what did the hausa create in these regards that was absent or much less common before that date?

    You’ve got it backwards. The Hausa were creating nothing in metallurgy that was comparable to what the Igbo were doing in the 9th century. And when the Hausa did begin doing comparable work, it was under the influence of Middle Eastern traditions of metallurgy.

    the 9th century could be said to be nearing the beginning of the central middle ages, but either way, it was a long time after the major iron production of 765 BC.

    You’re surprised that there would be a delay of some 1,600 years between iron smelting and advanced metallurgy? Isn’t that consistent with what we see elsewhere?

    The other groups that have been brought up in these comments, such as the Yoruba, Edo, Hausa, but arguably many others in West Africa.

    You were saying that other African groups showed a record of academic achievement similar to that of the Ibo. Please name them.

    Regardless, I think it could be argued that mercantile positions back then were not as cognitively demanding as they claim, and this is what Ferguson heavily touches upon.

    Actually, he doesn’t. His argument was that “wealthy” Ashkenazi Jews were too small a proportion of the population to produce the kind of selective effect that Cochran et al. envisioned. In reality, the selection wasn’t produced by the “wealthy.” It was produced by differential survival and reproductive success among the bulk of the population — small family shops that often worked on contract for other traders.

    Regardless, the wikipedia article doesn’t say anything about there being arab and berber traders in Benin when the portuguese arrived

    “After fifty years of coastal exploration, the Portuguese finally reached Elmina in 1471, during the reign of King Afonso V. However, because Portuguese royalty had lost interest in African exploration as a result of meager returns, the Guinea trade was put under the oversight of the Portuguese trader, Fernão Gomes. Upon reaching present day Elmina, Gomes discovered a thriving gold trade already established among the natives and visiting Arab and Berber traders.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmina_Castle#Pre-Portuguese

    This is standard history. European and Muslim traders altered the dynamics of West African societies by producing an inflow of new wealth, which was disproportionately monopolized by chieftains. This wealth enabled them to expand their territorial base and become patrons for works of art, monuments, etc. If you wish to disagree, fine. This point is tangential to our discussion, and I’m puzzled why you insist on it.

    Still, how can we be sure the art at Igbo-Ukwu didn’t involve patronage?

    We can be “sure” that it was less of a factor than it was in the centralized kingdoms that arose much later in other parts of West Africa.

    I think the fundamental problem here is that you have trouble believing that natural selection can produce anything significant over the time scale in question (approx. one thousand years). This is why you consider genetic drift to be more plausible, even though genetic drift is much slower and more dependent on bottlenecks (for which we have no evidence).

    Keep in mind that the pace of human genetic evolution increased by over a hundred-fold some 10,000 years ago. Genetically speaking, much more has happened over the past 10, ooo years in our species than over the previous 100,000. I could take you by the hand and walk you through the math of gene-culture coevolution, but I think it would be better for you to read up on the subject. Yes, what I’m talking about is theoretically feasible.

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    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    So Peter you call that piece of rock (or bronze snail shell) super intelligent Igbo "metallurgy" of 9th century? ROFL

    Here, let's check out the real metallurgy:

    --- 12th-11th centuries BCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxingdui

    ---c. 1000 BC: Zhou Dynasty metallurgy : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_dynasty

    -- 206 BC: Qin Dynasty metallurgy:

    (Qin marked the peak of metallurgy of bronze items.Try compare that bronze snail of Igbo to 1,000 years earlier Qin Dynasty bronze works of Han Chinese. Not even funny. )

    http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/shaanxi/xian/terra_cotta_army/weapon_1.htm

    http://pinstake.com/is-a-collection-of-terracotta-sculptures-depicting-the-armies-of-qi/aHR0cDp8fHd3d15lYXN5Y2hpbmF0cmF2ZWxwbGFubmVyXmNvbXx3cC1jb250ZW50fHVwbG9hZHN8MjAxNHwwMnxxaW4tc2hpLWh1YW5nLXRlcnJhY290dGEtYXJteS0xXmpwZw==/


    -- 206 BCE – 220 CE: Han dynasty metallurgy: (shall we go for iron and steel - making of han Dynasty?)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_of_the_Han_dynasty

    http://donwagner.dk/EncIt/EncIt.html

    ...

    What were han Chinese doing in comparable 9th century - Tang Dynasty:

    http://www.wilsoncollection.org/2013/11/the-bronze-age-c.html

    Now that, is, metallurgy

    , @FirstPerson
    "“After fifty years of coastal exploration, the Portuguese finally reached Elmina in 1471, during the reign of King Afonso V. However, because Portuguese royalty had lost interest in African exploration as a result of meager returns, the Guinea trade was put under the oversight of the Portuguese trader, Fernão Gomes. Upon reaching present day Elmina, Gomes discovered a thriving gold trade already established among the natives and visiting Arab and Berber traders.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmina_Castle#Pre-Portuguese

    This is standard history. European and Muslim traders altered the dynamics of West African societies by producing an inflow of new wealth, which was disproportionately monopolized by chieftains. This wealth enabled them to expand their territorial base and become patrons for works of art, monuments, etc. If you wish to disagree, fine. This point is tangential to our discussion, and I’m puzzled why you insist on it.
    "


    This is wrong again. Elmina in Ghana is hundreds miles from Benin, which is the kingdom you and him were discussing and no Gomes did not find "visiting Arab and Berber traders" at Elmina. Wikipedia is wrong again. Stop just relying on Wikipedia. If you want to get an idea of who was actually visiting Elmina for trade when the Portuguese arrived from a professional source read the article "Wangara, Akan and Portuguese in the Fifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries. 1. The Matter of Bitu" by Ivor Wilks.

    "We can be “sure” that it was less of a factor than it was in the centralized kingdoms that arose much later in other parts of West Africa."

    This is poorly reasoned. You do not know whether there was a centralized kingdom there or not to be "sure" of anything. You may not have not read about the sites in detail but it remains a fact that the professional archaeologist who excavated the Igbo Ukwu artifacts, Thurstan Shaw, believed they were made by a kingdom and he noted in his work that this particular part of the Igbo area did in fact have traditions of a divine kingship in there. It may very well have been a centralized kingdom.
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  • @Anonymous
    Bullshit. Black and brown people are unable to sustain, let alone _advance_ western civilization. An England with only Igbos would turn into a third-world shithole. So we need white european gentile elites who run the show in the background still.

    How did this make it through? I’m surprised this site doesn’t have a report feature.

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  • @vinteuil
    But, Truth, you surprising man - to my knowledge (and I follow comments here way more than I should) none of those guys have ever claimed anything of the sort!

    Maybe you could give me a link?

    There is a great story I read once about some educated Methodist Preachers, Doctorate types, going on a trip to Japan to study Zen in, In , I believe it was, the 18th century.

    They spend their time whore-mongering with the Japanese girls, getting wasted on sakki, demanding things, and not taking baths. These were of course their customs, and they were amongst heathens, so why wouldn’t they take a little advantage?

    Finally after some time, they got around to a little bit of philosophical discussion with the monks, however instead of trying to understand, one of the Christians took it upon himself to play “faith gotcha” with them, asking the sort of philosophical questions for which there is not answer such as “If God is all-powerful, can he create a rock to heavy for himself to lift.”

    The monk, being confused by the foreigner’s style of “mutual learning”, stopped him for a second and asked him:

    “Sir, why is it that you are so concerned about the condition of your beard, when the executioner long ago removed your head?

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    There is a great story I read once about some educated Methodist Preachers, Doctorate types, going on a trip to Japan to study Zen in, In , I believe it was, the 18th century.
     
    Methodist preachers in 18th century Japan?That would have been more than a bit problematic:

    Sakoku ("locked country") was the foreign relations policy of Japan under which no foreigner could enter nor could any Japanese leave the country on penalty of death. The policy was enacted by the Tokugawa shogunate under Tokugawa Iemitsu through a number of edicts and policies from 1633–39 and remained in effect until 1853 with the arrival of the Black Ships of Commodore Matthew Perry and the forcible opening of Japan to Western trade. It was still illegal to leave Japan until the Meiji Restoration (1868). It was preceded by an era commonly referred to as Sengoku, or the Warring States period of Japanese history.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku

    Jokes need good set-ups
    , @vinteuil
    "Truth," my friend: my first thought was that you might want to step away from the bong before you post again.

    But then curiosity got the better of me.

    Obviously, in your mind, concern over the condition of my beard = me asking for evidence that any of the most prominent commenters here believe what you say they do.

    But ??? = me getting my head removed? That's a puzzler. Was it your discovery of new commenter Qasim?
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  • @Qasim
    Maybe you should be more careful about what you right,

    Fair point. After all, one can never be too careful in one's righting. or reeding for that matter.

    I think a main problem we are having is that my comments are not addressed to people like you. If I was a masochist who wanted to try to convert the un-convertible, I would post on salon or huffingtonpost. But this is unz, where Steven Sailer lives, I assume a basic familiarity (and affinity) with HBD. Furthermore, this is a message board where brevity is important, and based on the general level of commenting on this site, I am assuming people are smart enough to get the basic gist of my argument without having to hold their hand.

    Peter Frost was the one who first said "You are assuming 3-4 races". I immediately knew he was referring to the Rushton type classification, which is Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and Australoid. But for whatever reason, Australoids are often omitted for the sake of brevity, and since we are discussing Eurasian DNA in Africa, referring to Australoids didn't seem important. Again, this is something that doesn't need to be obsessed over for people who are familiar with the argument and can make a simple mental leap.

    Curiously enough, you can proffer nothing specific to support your claims. How exactly does Lewontin support you for example?

    Again, I am not here to hold your hand and patiently explain everything to you. I assume that most of the people who read this site are already well aware of who Richard Lewontin is, how his Marxism colored his science, Lewontin's fallacy etc.

    As can be seen Relethford references (a) the already greater diversity of sub-Saharan Africans, which takes in genetic diversity and craniometric traits- nothing surprising given the evolution of anatomically modern humans in Africa. The origin point has greater diversity- everything else is a SUBSET of that diversity. Skin color is simply consistent with said pattern as Relethford shows. (b) Natural selection. This is basic Anthropology 101- nothing “fancy” about it.

    Again, you miss the point. And how many times are you going to cite your beloved Relethford?

    Let me try to make this clearer for you. Suppose there was an article that stated a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. All that would mean is that there is a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. Whether that diversity was something that was present 1500 years ago in the Arabian peninsula or whether the color diversity is a result of mating with and Arabizing people like the Persians and the Sudanese is not something that can be determined by the study.

    So is the diversity of skin colors among Bantus something intrinsic to Bantus or is it the result of admixture with different ethnicities who had different skin colors? Your beloved does not say, and that is why your endless citations of him are pointless.

    And this is a quote from the Razib Khan article recently posted on this site that seems germane..

    But the masking of Eurasian ancestry also highlighted something important: the genetic variation across African populations once you remove Eurasian ancestry is not that high.

    And as far as it being "basic Anthropology 101", does this lecture come before or after the lecture on how race is a completely social construct? I am sure "Gender is a social construct" is basic Womyn's Studies 101, but who cares?

    You need to go through your thought process logically, for your notion that lighter skin in Africa must be due to some sort of “race mix” is contradicted by your own example. You mention the San, and admit they have pale skin, but don’t seem to realize that your own statement contradicts your thought process. How did the San get yellow skin? Ancient Chinese colonists to the Kalahari or the Cape? Where is the evidence of these mysterious “Asiatic race mixers”? You don’t have any.

    Again, my only "mistake" was assuming you could make the sort of mental leaps that people with an IQ of say 120 make automatically.

    I DID make it clear we were talking not about the San, who have a nearly universal yellowish complexion and are often classified as another race (BUT I THOUGHT YOU SAID THERE WERE 4!!! When discussing Africa, Bantus, San, and Pygmies are often classified as 3 separate races (read syon's comment #130 if you are still confused). Anyway, there is no reason to think that the San's generally uniform skin complexion is the result of any race mixing. Now it is true I said light skin in African Americans is immediately thought to be the result of white admixture, so why not the same in Africans. But I assumed you knew we were still talking about Bantus (as I said Bantus are the group we are actually discussing). But for you, I will restate is as: When we see African Americans (who are overwhelmingly of Bantu origin) with light skin, we assume European admixture. So why is that when we see BANTU Africans (whose skin is generally exceedingly dark), that possibility is rejected out of hand? Because the alleged mixture took place in prehistory?

    So again, I do not assume EVERY African group has generally very dark skin. Not the San. Not the Boers. Not the people in the Maghreb. The Bantus only. Bantus Bantus Bantus.

    But even if this is so, how did said Neanderthal DNA produce light skin in Nigerians?

    Again, a small mental leap you were not able to make. So this one time I will spoonfeed you. Neanderthals lived in Eurasia. Neanderthals did not live in Africa. Neanderthals mated with Homo Sapiens. Neanderthal DNA is therefore present in modern humans. If a group of humans show Neanderthal DNA, then this means they had ancestors in Eurasia, since that is where Neanderthals and modern humans mated. If Africans are found to have Neanderthal DNA, then this means some of their ancestors were at one point in Eurasia.

    Now whether Neanderthals had the skin color of Taylor Swift or Lawrence Taylor is not relevant to the current argument. (Dipwill, it is also not relevant whether the Neanderthal brain was the size of a walnut or a watermelon.) The point of me bringing up the presence of Neanderthal DNA in Nigerians is ONLY that it is proof of partial Eurasian ancestry.

    What I do assume is that Eurasians likely had lighter skin than Bantus. So any offspring between Eurasians and Bantus would likely have lighter skin than Bantus without Eurasian admixture. Allow me to cite a recent credible article on Kanye West, a dark-skinned black man who recently had a daughter with a white woman. Now cutting edge spectral technology has given us tantalizing clues that this baby North has a complexion lighter than that of her black father yet darker than her white mother!! And this study helped me conclude that Africans with Eurasian admixture may be more light skinned.

    No actually what’s weird is your confused, laughable logic. The Igbo were no “light-skinned elite.”

    The Igbo are certainly an elite today. That IS the point of the Frost article, after all. And they are more light-skinned than other Nigerian tribes. And notice how you bring up Benin and totally ignore the ubiquitous and indisputable pattern of light-skinned elites seen throughout world history.

    I link to credible articles that debunk the rubbish you are pushing. You seem to be scared of actual credible scholarship- which is why you continuously try to avoid it. You and other intellectual lightweights

    You endlessly link to articles in the vain hopes that breadth of knowledge can substitute for depth of intellect and insight. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. I am not scared of your "credible" scholarship (notice how you use the word credible as this weird mantra, probably because you know someone else could as easily link to scholarly articles that conclude the exact opposite of what your articles say, but of course those articles would be non-credible).
    I just think looking at 50 leaves under an electron microscope is not the best way to comprehend the forest. Also, as we went over with the Relethford thing, what an article says and the ideologically addled conclusions you reach from them are two vastly different things. And thirdly, considering many of the researchers themselves share your ideological commitments, the fact that a scholar says something doesn't mean much on its own (see Lewontin, Gould).

    I know you will never believe me, but you are not even half as smart as you think, and all this lightweight stuff and lols are just projection. So be it. I leave you to snark away and write 20 more posts at your leisure.

    A couple of last thoughts. The amount of pompous bullshittery on this comment thread is a sight to behold. Look at FirstPerson's comment #176.

    The problem bedeviling people wondering about neanderthal admixture being found among a few Nigerians is the poor lack of knowledge of the history of that region that some here seem to have. I can go into detail if needed

    Fulanis came to Nigeria in the 16th century and again in the 18th century so any slight Eurasian DNA that they contributed to any peoples to the south of them has nothing to do with “ancient Eurasian migration” but to recent intermarriage and assimilation.

    Perhaps geneticists or genetics obsessed amateur anthropologists would do better to read more about the peoples they are speculating about in detail. If they do this they can avoid making the wrong assumption that some slight Eurasian DNA in (or derived from) some northern Nigerians who derived it from Northern Africans is evidence of ancient Eurasian admixture of Igbos or similar nonsense.


    Now let's quote some snippets from the aforementioned Razib Khan article posted on this site in December...

    What is more interesting is that they observed Eurasian admixture within Yoruba people. This admixture has been suggested by others, as the Yoruba have traces of Neandertal ancestry. This group dates the admixture back to nearly 10,000 years ago, so it as likely associated with goings on that were trans-Saharan. If that is the case these were almost certain quasi-Eurasian hunter-gatherers, and their ancestry might have been diminished in current North African groups subject to waves of farmers issuing from the east during the Neolithic. But there is also admixture with Eurasians further east in Uganda among Bantu groups.

    Though the Eurasian admixture story among these populations is fascinating, there is also nuance in the input of hunter-gatherer ancestry within West African and Bantu populations. First, I suspect that these estimates are low bounds, because they don’t have exact reference populations. Some of the hunter-gatherers mixed into the Igbo and Bantu groups may have been more like agriculturalists than the extant hunter-gatherer groups within Africa.

    The only complicating issue is that of Eurasian admixture; it seems likely that for very old admixture events we’re seeing underestimates, or they aren’t picked up. In other words, the “reference” Sub-Saharan Africans themselves are compounds of people who remained within Africa, and Out of Africa.


    So, other than the fact that you were off on the time of Neanderthal admixture by ohhh about 9500 years and incorrectly limited said mixture to Northern Nigerians everything you said was totally correct! Way to clear things up!!

    Again, this combination of absolute certitude and absolute talking out of one's arse is par for the course for people who can't bear to think that race and intelligence may be strongly linked.

    And there have been multiple comments insisting that other than a lighter skin color, the Igbo have no sign of Eurasian admixture. Do these people think that repeating this statement often enough will somehow make it true? Have these people actually seen many Igbos? There is a reason biracial Thandie Newton was cast to play an Igbo woman in a recent movie, and that there are endless message boards on the internet asking whether the Igbo are mixed-race, and why some Igbos themselves believe they have some Jewish ancestry.

    Sorry for the long post, that will be all from me. And to all those high-achieving Igbos out there, keep up the good work! :)

    “There is a reason biracial Thandie Newton was cast to play an Igbo woman in a recent movie,”

    LMAO! Why yes there is Old Bean, It’s just to bad that you ain’t smart enough to figure out what it is.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/11/zoe-saldana-nina-simone-criticism_n_7564452.html

    I love this Kat. He’s rapidly turning into one of my favorite posters.

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  • @FirstPerson
    "The Igbo are certainly an elite today. That IS the point of the Frost article, after all. And they are more light-skinned than other Nigerian tribes."

    There are lots of dark skinned Igbos and there are other peoples like the Ibibio, Ekoi and Annang that have as many light skinned people in their populations as the Igbo yet are not as "elite" in terms of intellectual or economic achievement in modern times as some other peoples in Nigeria that do not have as great a proportion of light skinned people.

    "What is more interesting is that they observed Eurasian admixture within Yoruba people. This admixture has been suggested by others, as the Yoruba have traces of Neandertal ancestry. This group dates the admixture back to nearly 10,000 years ago, so it as likely associated with goings on that were trans-Saharan. If that is the case these were almost certain quasi-Eurasian hunter-gatherers, and their ancestry might have been diminished in current North African groups subject to waves of farmers issuing from the east during the Neolithic. But there is also admixture with Eurasians further east in Uganda among Bantu groups.

    Though the Eurasian admixture story among these populations is fascinating, there is also nuance in the input of hunter-gatherer ancestry within West African and Bantu populations. First, I suspect that these estimates are low bounds, because they don’t have exact reference populations. Some of the hunter-gatherers mixed into the Igbo and Bantu groups may have been more like agriculturalists than the extant hunter-gatherer groups within Africa.

    The only complicating issue is that of Eurasian admixture; it seems likely that for very old admixture events we’re seeing underestimates, or they aren’t picked up. In other words, the “reference” Sub-Saharan Africans themselves are compounds of people who remained within Africa, and Out of Africa.

    So, other than the fact that you were off on the time of Neanderthal admixture by ohhh about 9500 years and incorrectly limited said mixture to Northern Nigerians everything you said was totally correct! Way to clear things up!!"


    You seem to be having difficulty with reading comprehension.

    1. I said the neanderthal ancestry in Yoruba is from Hausa or Fulani and similar northern Nigerian groups not that it was limited to Northern Nigerians and I said that Fulani came to Nigeria in the 16th and 18th century which they in fact did. Nobody knows when Hausa or Fulani acquired their Eurasian ancestry but I have no problem with it being 10,000 years ago at all - after all the Hausa speak an Afroasiatic language and may have intermarried with other Afroasiatic language groups that have Eurasian ancestry thousands of years ago before they diverged from other Afroasiatic language populations and migrated to their present location in Nigeria. Similarly with the Fulani and their interaction with North Africans thousands of years ago before moving into Nigeria in the 16th and 18th centuries.

    The fact of Hausa or Fulanis acquiring such Eurasian ancestry perhaps 10,000 years ago and then some of these Hausa and Fulani marrying Yorubas says literally nothing about Eurasian ancestry in Igbos and nobody has found actual Eurasian ancestry in Igbos.

    2. I did not say Eurasian ancestry was not present in other parts of Africa. I addressed why it was found even in a southern Nigerian group like the Yoruba and explained that some northern Nigerians were already known to have Eurasian ancestry. Read before jumping to conclusions.

    3. Uganda had a significant Arab presence in the past and there were Arab merchants there during the slave trade and slave raids, plus some of them could have easily intermarried with other east African peoples that are already known to have some Eurasian ancestry obtained long ago. It has no significance in the context of this discussion.

    4. Razib Khan, like you, is amateurish.


    "Again, this combination of absolute certitude and absolute talking out of one’s arse is par for the course for people who can’t bear to think that race and intelligence may be strongly linked."

    The irony here is overwhelming.

    You know basically nothing about the region in question yet are absolutely certain that your ridiculous ideas are true.

    "And there have been multiple comments insisting that other than a lighter skin color, the Igbo have no sign of Eurasian admixture. Do these people think that repeating this statement often enough will somehow make it true? Have these people actually seen many Igbos? There is a reason biracial Thandie Newton was cast to play an Igbo woman in a recent movie, and that there are endless message boards on the internet asking whether the Igbo are mixed-race, and why some Igbos themselves believe they have some Jewish ancestry."

    Have you ever been to Nigeria or seen Igbos in their part of Nigeria? Have you actually seen many Igbos?

    Have you ever been to other areas Nigeria? Have you actually seen many other non-Igbo Nigerians?

    You seem generally poorly informed.

    “Have you ever been to other areas Nigeria? Have you actually seen many other non-Igbo Nigerians?
    You seem generally poorly informed.”

    Yeah, but to be honest he has read this site for a few years. What other source of education need a man? I mean, as the man posted himself, he dont’ care how many limp-wristed, homosexual, commie, r-TEE-culls you post, he dun met a cupla them EEE-bow fellers in college…

    “Ideologically addled people such as yourself can write 20 posts and link to 50 articles all you want, the individual trees do not obscure the forest at all.”

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  • @Difference Maker
    Nonsense. If true about Igbo it is only another facet of HBD

    Bullshit. Black and brown people are unable to sustain, let alone _advance_ western civilization. An England with only Igbos would turn into a third-world shithole. So we need white european gentile elites who run the show in the background still.

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    • Replies: @Dipwill
    How did this make it through? I'm surprised this site doesn't have a report feature.
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  • @Qasim
    Maybe you should be more careful about what you right,

    Fair point. After all, one can never be too careful in one's righting. or reeding for that matter.

    I think a main problem we are having is that my comments are not addressed to people like you. If I was a masochist who wanted to try to convert the un-convertible, I would post on salon or huffingtonpost. But this is unz, where Steven Sailer lives, I assume a basic familiarity (and affinity) with HBD. Furthermore, this is a message board where brevity is important, and based on the general level of commenting on this site, I am assuming people are smart enough to get the basic gist of my argument without having to hold their hand.

    Peter Frost was the one who first said "You are assuming 3-4 races". I immediately knew he was referring to the Rushton type classification, which is Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and Australoid. But for whatever reason, Australoids are often omitted for the sake of brevity, and since we are discussing Eurasian DNA in Africa, referring to Australoids didn't seem important. Again, this is something that doesn't need to be obsessed over for people who are familiar with the argument and can make a simple mental leap.

    Curiously enough, you can proffer nothing specific to support your claims. How exactly does Lewontin support you for example?

    Again, I am not here to hold your hand and patiently explain everything to you. I assume that most of the people who read this site are already well aware of who Richard Lewontin is, how his Marxism colored his science, Lewontin's fallacy etc.

    As can be seen Relethford references (a) the already greater diversity of sub-Saharan Africans, which takes in genetic diversity and craniometric traits- nothing surprising given the evolution of anatomically modern humans in Africa. The origin point has greater diversity- everything else is a SUBSET of that diversity. Skin color is simply consistent with said pattern as Relethford shows. (b) Natural selection. This is basic Anthropology 101- nothing “fancy” about it.

    Again, you miss the point. And how many times are you going to cite your beloved Relethford?

    Let me try to make this clearer for you. Suppose there was an article that stated a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. All that would mean is that there is a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. Whether that diversity was something that was present 1500 years ago in the Arabian peninsula or whether the color diversity is a result of mating with and Arabizing people like the Persians and the Sudanese is not something that can be determined by the study.

    So is the diversity of skin colors among Bantus something intrinsic to Bantus or is it the result of admixture with different ethnicities who had different skin colors? Your beloved does not say, and that is why your endless citations of him are pointless.

    And this is a quote from the Razib Khan article recently posted on this site that seems germane..

    But the masking of Eurasian ancestry also highlighted something important: the genetic variation across African populations once you remove Eurasian ancestry is not that high.

    And as far as it being "basic Anthropology 101", does this lecture come before or after the lecture on how race is a completely social construct? I am sure "Gender is a social construct" is basic Womyn's Studies 101, but who cares?

    You need to go through your thought process logically, for your notion that lighter skin in Africa must be due to some sort of “race mix” is contradicted by your own example. You mention the San, and admit they have pale skin, but don’t seem to realize that your own statement contradicts your thought process. How did the San get yellow skin? Ancient Chinese colonists to the Kalahari or the Cape? Where is the evidence of these mysterious “Asiatic race mixers”? You don’t have any.

    Again, my only "mistake" was assuming you could make the sort of mental leaps that people with an IQ of say 120 make automatically.

    I DID make it clear we were talking not about the San, who have a nearly universal yellowish complexion and are often classified as another race (BUT I THOUGHT YOU SAID THERE WERE 4!!! When discussing Africa, Bantus, San, and Pygmies are often classified as 3 separate races (read syon's comment #130 if you are still confused). Anyway, there is no reason to think that the San's generally uniform skin complexion is the result of any race mixing. Now it is true I said light skin in African Americans is immediately thought to be the result of white admixture, so why not the same in Africans. But I assumed you knew we were still talking about Bantus (as I said Bantus are the group we are actually discussing). But for you, I will restate is as: When we see African Americans (who are overwhelmingly of Bantu origin) with light skin, we assume European admixture. So why is that when we see BANTU Africans (whose skin is generally exceedingly dark), that possibility is rejected out of hand? Because the alleged mixture took place in prehistory?

    So again, I do not assume EVERY African group has generally very dark skin. Not the San. Not the Boers. Not the people in the Maghreb. The Bantus only. Bantus Bantus Bantus.

    But even if this is so, how did said Neanderthal DNA produce light skin in Nigerians?

    Again, a small mental leap you were not able to make. So this one time I will spoonfeed you. Neanderthals lived in Eurasia. Neanderthals did not live in Africa. Neanderthals mated with Homo Sapiens. Neanderthal DNA is therefore present in modern humans. If a group of humans show Neanderthal DNA, then this means they had ancestors in Eurasia, since that is where Neanderthals and modern humans mated. If Africans are found to have Neanderthal DNA, then this means some of their ancestors were at one point in Eurasia.

    Now whether Neanderthals had the skin color of Taylor Swift or Lawrence Taylor is not relevant to the current argument. (Dipwill, it is also not relevant whether the Neanderthal brain was the size of a walnut or a watermelon.) The point of me bringing up the presence of Neanderthal DNA in Nigerians is ONLY that it is proof of partial Eurasian ancestry.

    What I do assume is that Eurasians likely had lighter skin than Bantus. So any offspring between Eurasians and Bantus would likely have lighter skin than Bantus without Eurasian admixture. Allow me to cite a recent credible article on Kanye West, a dark-skinned black man who recently had a daughter with a white woman. Now cutting edge spectral technology has given us tantalizing clues that this baby North has a complexion lighter than that of her black father yet darker than her white mother!! And this study helped me conclude that Africans with Eurasian admixture may be more light skinned.

    No actually what’s weird is your confused, laughable logic. The Igbo were no “light-skinned elite.”

    The Igbo are certainly an elite today. That IS the point of the Frost article, after all. And they are more light-skinned than other Nigerian tribes. And notice how you bring up Benin and totally ignore the ubiquitous and indisputable pattern of light-skinned elites seen throughout world history.

    I link to credible articles that debunk the rubbish you are pushing. You seem to be scared of actual credible scholarship- which is why you continuously try to avoid it. You and other intellectual lightweights

    You endlessly link to articles in the vain hopes that breadth of knowledge can substitute for depth of intellect and insight. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. I am not scared of your "credible" scholarship (notice how you use the word credible as this weird mantra, probably because you know someone else could as easily link to scholarly articles that conclude the exact opposite of what your articles say, but of course those articles would be non-credible).
    I just think looking at 50 leaves under an electron microscope is not the best way to comprehend the forest. Also, as we went over with the Relethford thing, what an article says and the ideologically addled conclusions you reach from them are two vastly different things. And thirdly, considering many of the researchers themselves share your ideological commitments, the fact that a scholar says something doesn't mean much on its own (see Lewontin, Gould).

    I know you will never believe me, but you are not even half as smart as you think, and all this lightweight stuff and lols are just projection. So be it. I leave you to snark away and write 20 more posts at your leisure.

    A couple of last thoughts. The amount of pompous bullshittery on this comment thread is a sight to behold. Look at FirstPerson's comment #176.

    The problem bedeviling people wondering about neanderthal admixture being found among a few Nigerians is the poor lack of knowledge of the history of that region that some here seem to have. I can go into detail if needed

    Fulanis came to Nigeria in the 16th century and again in the 18th century so any slight Eurasian DNA that they contributed to any peoples to the south of them has nothing to do with “ancient Eurasian migration” but to recent intermarriage and assimilation.

    Perhaps geneticists or genetics obsessed amateur anthropologists would do better to read more about the peoples they are speculating about in detail. If they do this they can avoid making the wrong assumption that some slight Eurasian DNA in (or derived from) some northern Nigerians who derived it from Northern Africans is evidence of ancient Eurasian admixture of Igbos or similar nonsense.


    Now let's quote some snippets from the aforementioned Razib Khan article posted on this site in December...

    What is more interesting is that they observed Eurasian admixture within Yoruba people. This admixture has been suggested by others, as the Yoruba have traces of Neandertal ancestry. This group dates the admixture back to nearly 10,000 years ago, so it as likely associated with goings on that were trans-Saharan. If that is the case these were almost certain quasi-Eurasian hunter-gatherers, and their ancestry might have been diminished in current North African groups subject to waves of farmers issuing from the east during the Neolithic. But there is also admixture with Eurasians further east in Uganda among Bantu groups.

    Though the Eurasian admixture story among these populations is fascinating, there is also nuance in the input of hunter-gatherer ancestry within West African and Bantu populations. First, I suspect that these estimates are low bounds, because they don’t have exact reference populations. Some of the hunter-gatherers mixed into the Igbo and Bantu groups may have been more like agriculturalists than the extant hunter-gatherer groups within Africa.

    The only complicating issue is that of Eurasian admixture; it seems likely that for very old admixture events we’re seeing underestimates, or they aren’t picked up. In other words, the “reference” Sub-Saharan Africans themselves are compounds of people who remained within Africa, and Out of Africa.


    So, other than the fact that you were off on the time of Neanderthal admixture by ohhh about 9500 years and incorrectly limited said mixture to Northern Nigerians everything you said was totally correct! Way to clear things up!!

    Again, this combination of absolute certitude and absolute talking out of one's arse is par for the course for people who can't bear to think that race and intelligence may be strongly linked.

    And there have been multiple comments insisting that other than a lighter skin color, the Igbo have no sign of Eurasian admixture. Do these people think that repeating this statement often enough will somehow make it true? Have these people actually seen many Igbos? There is a reason biracial Thandie Newton was cast to play an Igbo woman in a recent movie, and that there are endless message boards on the internet asking whether the Igbo are mixed-race, and why some Igbos themselves believe they have some Jewish ancestry.

    Sorry for the long post, that will be all from me. And to all those high-achieving Igbos out there, keep up the good work! :)

    The Igbo are certainly an elite today. That IS the point of the Frost article, after all. And they are more light-skinned than other Nigerian tribes.

    There are lots of dark skinned Igbos and there are other peoples like the Ibibio, Ekoi and Annang that have as many light skinned people in their populations as the Igbo yet are not as “elite” in terms of intellectual or economic achievement in modern times as some other peoples in Nigeria that do not have as great a proportion of light skinned people.

    What is more interesting is that they observed Eurasian admixture within Yoruba people. This admixture has been suggested by others, as the Yoruba have traces of Neandertal ancestry. This group dates the admixture back to nearly 10,000 years ago, so it as likely associated with goings on that were trans-Saharan. If that is the case these were almost certain quasi-Eurasian hunter-gatherers, and their ancestry might have been diminished in current North African groups subject to waves of farmers issuing from the east during the Neolithic. But there is also admixture with Eurasians further east in Uganda among Bantu groups.

    Though the Eurasian admixture story among these populations is fascinating, there is also nuance in the input of hunter-gatherer ancestry within West African and Bantu populations. First, I suspect that these estimates are low bounds, because they don’t have exact reference populations. Some of the hunter-gatherers mixed into the Igbo and Bantu groups may have been more like agriculturalists than the extant hunter-gatherer groups within Africa.

    The only complicating issue is that of Eurasian admixture; it seems likely that for very old admixture events we’re seeing underestimates, or they aren’t picked up. In other words, the “reference” Sub-Saharan Africans themselves are compounds of people who remained within Africa, and Out of Africa.

    So, other than the fact that you were off on the time of Neanderthal admixture by ohhh about 9500 years and incorrectly limited said mixture to Northern Nigerians everything you said was totally correct! Way to clear things up!!”

    You seem to be having difficulty with reading comprehension.

    1. I said the neanderthal ancestry in Yoruba is from Hausa or Fulani and similar northern Nigerian groups not that it was limited to Northern Nigerians and I said that Fulani came to Nigeria in the 16th and 18th century which they in fact did. Nobody knows when Hausa or Fulani acquired their Eurasian ancestry but I have no problem with it being 10,000 years ago at all – after all the Hausa speak an Afroasiatic language and may have intermarried with other Afroasiatic language groups that have Eurasian ancestry thousands of years ago before they diverged from other Afroasiatic language populations and migrated to their present location in Nigeria. Similarly with the Fulani and their interaction with North Africans thousands of years ago before moving into Nigeria in the 16th and 18th centuries.

    The fact of Hausa or Fulanis acquiring such Eurasian ancestry perhaps 10,000 years ago and then some of these Hausa and Fulani marrying Yorubas says literally nothing about Eurasian ancestry in Igbos and nobody has found actual Eurasian ancestry in Igbos.

    2. I did not say Eurasian ancestry was not present in other parts of Africa. I addressed why it was found even in a southern Nigerian group like the Yoruba and explained that some northern Nigerians were already known to have Eurasian ancestry. Read before jumping to conclusions.

    3. Uganda had a significant Arab presence in the past and there were Arab merchants there during the slave trade and slave raids, plus some of them could have easily intermarried with other east African peoples that are already known to have some Eurasian ancestry obtained long ago. It has no significance in the context of this discussion.

    4. Razib Khan, like you, is amateurish.

    Again, this combination of absolute certitude and absolute talking out of one’s arse is par for the course for people who can’t bear to think that race and intelligence may be strongly linked.

    The irony here is overwhelming.

    You know basically nothing about the region in question yet are absolutely certain that your ridiculous ideas are true.

    And there have been multiple comments insisting that other than a lighter skin color, the Igbo have no sign of Eurasian admixture. Do these people think that repeating this statement often enough will somehow make it true? Have these people actually seen many Igbos? There is a reason biracial Thandie Newton was cast to play an Igbo woman in a recent movie, and that there are endless message boards on the internet asking whether the Igbo are mixed-race, and why some Igbos themselves believe they have some Jewish ancestry.

    Have you ever been to Nigeria or seen Igbos in their part of Nigeria? Have you actually seen many Igbos?

    Have you ever been to other areas Nigeria? Have you actually seen many other non-Igbo Nigerians?

    You seem generally poorly informed.

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    • Replies: @Truth
    "Have you ever been to other areas Nigeria? Have you actually seen many other non-Igbo Nigerians?
    You seem generally poorly informed."

    Yeah, but to be honest he has read this site for a few years. What other source of education need a man? I mean, as the man posted himself, he dont' care how many limp-wristed, homosexual, commie, r-TEE-culls you post, he dun met a cupla them EEE-bow fellers in college...

    "Ideologically addled people such as yourself can write 20 posts and link to 50 articles all you want, the individual trees do not obscure the forest at all."
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  • @Peter Frost
    I am really not sure where you get the idea that the Hausa developed it much later in time, because the Hausa as a people didn’t come together until the early middle ages and we find metal smelting in other parts of West Africa from well before that.

    There seems to be some confusion over the term "metallurgy." It's not just smelting. It's also metalworking and techniques like wire making, soldering, and riveting.

    The problem with your arguments about the Igbo being likely as intelligent as they are due to their history is that you don’t have much of a coherent timeline [...] when were the Igbo known to have been trading heavily with others, or atleast be prominent traders in this region? The paper you cite alludes to this being why so much iron was produced in 765 BC, but what about in 2,000 BC, the earliest one? What was the impetus for the Igbo developing iron so early? Is there any evidence the earliest iron smelting relates to trade? Exactly when do the ancient egyptian beads date to? These beads were found in Igbo-Ukwu, but Igbo-Ukwu dates to the central middle ages. The art at Igbo-Ukwu wasn’t produced until close to well over 1,000 years after the major iron production in 765 BC, and the other major artistic traditions in Nigeria, Ile Ife and Benin, developed a few to several centuries after Igbo-Ukwu

    With due respect, you seem to be a bit confused about the timeline. Igbo-Ukwu dates to the 9th century, which is hardly the central middle ages. Perhaps I should put this all in point form to make it clear:

    2,000 BC - earliest evidence of iron smelting in the Niger Delta. This may or may not involve ancestral Igbo and it may or may not indicate smelting for trade.

    765 BC - evidence of large-scale iron smelting in excess of local needs. This may be evidence of production for trade.

    9th century - advanced metallurgy at Igbo-Ukwu (wire making, soldering, riveting). Copper, bronze, and iron manufacture. Evidence of metallurgy at this site at later dates, suggesting continuous use up to the historic period.

    11th-12th centuries - assemblages of beads from Gao (eastern Mali) that are very similar to beads recovered from Igbo-Ukwu. Evidence of long-distance trade.

    1500 - mid-19th century - Igbo domination of regional trade in salt, cloth, and beads.

    late 19th century onward - British colonial rule. Emigration of Igbo merchants to west and north of Nigeria.

    My main point is twofold:

    1- Metallurgy began in the Niger Delta much earlier than at other sites in West Africa. It also reached an advanced level of sophistication that in some ways surpassed what we see in Europe and the Middle East of that time period. Finally, this tradition of metallurgy seems to have been largely of indigenous origin.

    2. Comparable metallurgy (not smelting) began later at other sites in West Africa. It also seems to have been made possible by royal patronage in centralized states. I suggested that the slave trade (Atlantic and Transsaharan) provided these African rulers with the means to pay for this metalworking. You seem to disagree with me on this point, and bitterly so. This is the case with another commenter who sees it as proof of gross incompetence on my part.

    Let's be honest with each other. Does it bother you that some African groups may be as intelligent as most Eurasians? Is that the underlying issue? Normally, people don't feel so bitter over such issues as to the degree to which state formation in West Africa was stimulated by the slave trade.

    I think if we take the totality of achievement as indicative of intelligence in Nigeria, the Igbo are outclassed by other groups.

    Which groups?

    this is a point raised in Ferguson’s critique of Cochran and Harpending, that the money-lending positions of the Ashkenazi were so intensively selective

    Trade isn't simply money lending. It's also responding to your economic environment in a much more dynamic way than is the case with simple farmers, serfs, or people working in patron/client relationships. This is a point where I've disagreed with Greg.

    Regarding your wikipedia citation on the Benin Empire, it does not at all say Portuguese trade was the impetus for Benin’s formation. The Portuguese contacted them in 1485, 45 years after Benin became an empire, not a city-state, so Benin as a city-state existed for even longer before the Portuguese, and urbanization even moreso.

    I cited wiki because I didn't want to cite a French-language source that most people here would not understand. But let's quote the Wiki passage in question:

    "By the 15th century, Edo as a system of protected settlements expanded into a thriving city-state. In the 15th century, the twelfth Oba in line, Oba Ewuare the Great (1440–1473) would expand the city-state to an empire.

    It was not until the 15th century during the reign of Oba Ewuare the Great that the kingdom's administrative centre, the city Ubinu, began to be known as Benin City by the Portuguese, and would later be adopted by the locals as well."

    The Portuguese arrived in this region in 1471, when they discovered that Arab and Berber traders were already present. They were trading in gold and slaves (so the slave trade was already present at that time).

    I don't wish to belabor this question ad infinitum. I was simply arguing that the slave trade provided the Benin rulers with the means that made royal patronage of metalworking possible.

    What does it matter whether it was produced under royal patronage and not trade?

    Because royal patronage implies an ability to recruit (or abduct) talented individuals from a wide geographical area. It also implies a centralization of wealth flows, with much wealth being concentrated in the hands of a few individuals. This was not the case with the Igbo, among whom power was much more diffusely distributed.

    1500 – mid-19th century – Igbo domination of regional trade in salt, cloth, and beads.

    There is no evidence for this but perhaps you mean that in their particular part of Nigeria they dominated regional trade in those things but for other parts of Nigeria they did not dominate any of that trade.

    This is the case with another commenter who sees it as proof of gross incompetence on my part.

    I have not called you incompetent yet, I have just implied that you seem unwilling to do more basic research and gain a rudimentary understanding of the area you are writing about yet are unreasonably adamant in holding to your strange interpretation of the regional history of the area.

    The Portuguese arrived in this region in 1471, when they discovered that Arab and Berber traders were already present. They were trading in gold and slaves (so the slave trade was already present at that time).

    They did not arrive there because they “discovered that Arab and Berber traders were already present” and there is no evidence that they discovered Arab and Berber traders “already present” in Benin when they arrived. Plus much of the trade was in pepper and gold was not a major article of trade for Benin but perhaps you mean it was what the Portuguese were trading in.

    I was simply arguing that the slave trade provided the Benin rulers with the means that made royal patronage of metalworking possible.

    And you would be wrong again since there is Benin royal art that predates that time but regardless this does not address the issue of the Ife royal art which has even more pieces that predate that time.

    It also implies a centralization of wealth flows, with much wealth being concentrated in the hands of a few individuals. This was not the case with the Igbo, among whom power was much more diffusely distributed.

    Do you realize that the finds at Igbo Ukwu have been interpreted by some (including by Thurstan Shaw, the man who excavated most of them) as associated with a traditional divine kingship in that area? Some of the Igbo Ukwu items – a flywhisk, a scabbard, a staff, a bronze belt, etc. – could easily have been part of a royal regalia. Why assume there was no “royal patronage” in making the Igbo Ukwu art when it was concentrated in one area and seems to include items often associated with kingship.

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  • @candid_observer
    It is likewise true that blacks in the US have very aggressive Affirmative Action working in their favor, so that the comparison between the two groups on the basis of their performance on the medical school tests is pretty fair.

    Moreover, the number of blacks in England who take the medical school cognitive test seem to be in rough proportion to their numbers in the relevant cohort -- about 6%. (While the overall proportion of blacks in England is about 3.5%, they have about half again as many proportionately in the relevant young cohort as whites.)

    This means that comparing the relative scores of whites vs. blacks in England who do well on this metric is basically quite fair, especially when the absolute difference -- over 1 SD -- is so great. Minor adjustments due to relative representation are not going to have a significant impact on the implications of those starkly different numbers.

    I am not agreeing with Deduction’s comment or anything but I just want to point out that regardless of all of this, different groups of blacks in the UK simply do not have the same statistics in other areas – certainly the Afro-Caribbean blacks do not have the same statistics by any means as the Nigerians. So the “black” category of that UK CAT is kind of worthless and misleading for the purposes of resolving the issue discussed in this comment thread.

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  • @Dipwill
    You are misconstruing what I'm arguing because I wasn't saying that to argue against you, I was highlighting the speciousness of arguments about non-africans being behind the achievements of medieval west africa since this comment thread has been skirting it.

    But yes, I am sure neanderthal admixture has been found in most africans- here is one paper: http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/2013/10/neandertal-admixture-in-africans-a-back-migration-confirmed/

    This paper claims it's primarily in east africans (including the isolated, stone age sandawe and hadza) which surprises me a bit, but there is indeed neanderthal admixture in west africans as well.

    I was not under the impression that you were “arguing against me” I just found that you misread what I said about Horn of Africans.

    I also disagree with your claim about “most Africans” and neanderthal admixture because you have not provided the required proof and I am not aware of any proof of such for other groups. I was already aware of the east African neanderthal DNA discussed in that paper but we are discussing Igbos.

    I also disagreed with your characterization of lighter brown skin as a non-African feature. It is found not only among the Igbos in Nigeria (as just one place in Africa where it is found) and there are many dark skinned Igbos anyhow.

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    • Replies: @Enrique Cardova
    I also disagreed with your characterization of lighter brown skin as a non-African feature. It is found not only among the Igbos in Nigeria (as just one place in Africa where it is found) and there are many dark skinned Igbos anyhow.


    And as noted in the scholarly citation above, Africans have the highest skin color diversity.
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  • @Stan D Mute

    GCSE’s are largely based on coursework and cheating is rife. A-levels and university finals exams are a better proxy.
     
    I made the same comment to Chisala's original article. I call more PC propaganda here.

    Show me the objective g-loaded tests like SAT, IQ, ASVAB.

    Still, Frost went a long way toward a more convincing argument here. I still want to see the objective test data.

    Coursework-driven assessment also tends to favour girls at the expense of boys. I remember when continuous coursework (known in Australia and New Zealand as internal assessment) came in the late 1980s. The headmasters of boy’s secondary schools opposed it on the grounds that boys tend to deal with exam stress better than girls and have a lower boredom tolerance.

    In private schools in Australia and New Zealand an increasing number of students are doing Cambridge International Exams rather than continuous coursework qualifications.

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    • Replies: @Enrique Cardova
    In the US there is some evidence that test changes were made so that girls could do better on tests. For example:

    College Board Revises Test to Improve Chances for Girls. 1996. Karen W. Arenson 10/2/1996 NY Times
    http://www.nytimes.com/1996/10/02/us/college-board-revises-test-to-improve-chances-for-girls.html?pagewanted=print&src=pm

    Is this similar to what you are talking about in Australia?
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  • If groups like the Igbo are significantly smarter than other Blacks, such as West Indian Blacks descended from slaves, then it’s about time they stopped being recipients of affirmative action.

    High IQ Blacks should be helping other Blacks by starting businesses and employing or marrying lower IQ blacks, not securing cushy government jobs at the expense of working class whites.

    And UK employment figures suggest that are plenty of lower IQ Blacks in the UK who need help:

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/mar/09/half-uk-young-black-men-unemployed.

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  • “There seems to be some confusion over the term “metallurgy.” It’s not just smelting. It’s also metalworking and techniques like wire making, soldering, and riveting.”

    If that’s the case, what did the hausa create in these regards that was absent or much less common before that date?

    “With due respect, you seem to be a bit confused about the timeline. Igbo-Ukwu dates to the 9th century, which is hardly the central middle ages. Perhaps I should put this all in point form to make it clear:”

    This is getting a bit too semantic- the 9th century could be said to be nearing the beginning of the central middle ages, but either way, it was a long time after the major iron production of 765 BC.

    With regards to your timeline, this is where I think things get pretty tenuous. We find indigenous iron smelting in the Igbo region in 2,000 BC, but we don’t know why it was developed here first or if this involved the ancestral Igbo, and whether this was the only place in west africa where metal working was indigenous. About 1,300 years later, we find heavy iron production indicative of outside trade. They do not produce advanced art at a single city until even much later on, and only centuries later do they dominate trade in this region (and beforehand, were not unique among west africans in engaging in long term trade).

    I just do not see this as being a vehicle for selection that made them notably more intelligent than other Nigerians. It strikes me as a large amount of speculation with generally scattered periods of achievement that are arguably not particularly notable compared to other west african groups.

    “Let’s be honest with each other. Does it bother you that some African groups may be as intelligent as most Eurasians? Is that the underlying issue? Normally, people don’t feel so bitter over such issues as to the degree to which state formation in West Africa was stimulated by the slave trade.”

    No? I am disputing you on the basis of the reasons why the Igbo are supposedly so intelligent. I am not trying to exert “bitterness”, and I don’t know why you think I am resistant to the idea they could be as intelligent as must eurasians- they probably are. I do not think that their status as traders, or early adoption of metal smelting is what made them likely more intelligent. If you want me to be honest, I see it as an extension of a tendency in these circles to grossly overrate the cognitive demands of mercantile positions in pre-modern cultures. I think it is getting particularly far-fetched when this is being extended to the Igbo and their history, and I think you are overstating how precocious and unique they are compared to other west african groups, and by extension, are wrongfully downplaying the achievements of other west africans.

    “Which groups?”

    The other groups that have been brought up in these comments, such as the Yoruba, Edo, Hausa, but arguably many others in West Africa.

    “Trade isn’t simply money lending. It’s also responding to your economic environment in a much more dynamic way than is the case with simple farmers, serfs, or people working in patron/client relationships. This is a point where I’ve disagreed with Greg. ”

    Regardless, I think it could be argued that mercantile positions back then were not as cognitively demanding as they claim, and this is what Ferguson heavily touches upon.

    “I cited wiki because I didn’t want to cite a French-language source that most people here would not understand. But let’s quote the Wiki passage in question:”

    I didn’t mean to come off as snide about saying “Wikipedia citation”, I was just stating what you were referring to without quoting an entire passage from your post.

    Regardless, the wikipedia article doesn’t say anything about there being arab and berber traders in Benin when the portuguese arrived (and it does not say trade with the Portuguese is what led to the creation of Benin city and their empire). It would be helpful if you could provide evidence that they were, but even then, I find it questionable how extensive trade with them was, considering how much further north they were, and especially how strong portuguese influence was in later Benin artwork (arab/berber influence seems virtually non-existent.)

    Still, how can we be sure the art at Igbo-Ukwu didn’t involve patronage? The Igbo’s most advanced art occurred in only one city and nowhere else, just like the greatest art on the part of the Edo and Yoruba. The Igbo have generally seemed to occupy a relatively large area and have maintained some sort of distinct identity despite being so decentralized and rural- haven’t they engaged in warfare, conquest and slavery as well? The largest, most militaristic state of the Yoruba, Oyo, did not develop until after Ile Ife, and Ife’s art began not particularly long after it was formed as an actual city. And they, like the Igbo, forgot the artwork produced at Ife. Only in Benin was their artwork sustained from when it first began, even after Benin fell into decline and was conquered by the end of the 19th century.

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  • Qasim says:
    @Enrique Cardova
    Notice I said 3-4 macro-races. The 4 is there for a reason, as Australoids are often classified as the fourth. Maybe you should read things more carefully before you start doing the lol thing.

    Maybe you should be more careful about what you right, for you yourself specifically asserted three races- Quote: "but the macro-division of Mongoloid/Caucasoid/Negroid still stands." And up above you say nothing about Australians until I mentioned them, nor did you include Australians in your 3-part "macro" races division.


    .
    his website recently published an article by Robert Trivers, the sections on Gould and Lewontin show perfect examples of ideology trumping a dispassionate search for the truth.
    Curiously enough, you can proffer nothing specific to support your claims. How exactly does Lewontin support you for example? Why are specifics are missing in your alleged "dispassionate search for the truth?"

    .
    Also, simply NOTING the diversity of skin color amongst sub-Saharan Africans is not the same as EXPLAINING said diversity, no matter how many fancy articles you site.
    Actually the citation already explains it. Let's look at an excerpt of what scholar Relethford says above again- there is nothing "fancy" about it:

    “Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits
    have found higher levels of within-population diversity
    in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions...
    For both measures, the average level of within-population
    diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other
    geographic regions. This difference persists even after
    adjusting for a correlation between within-population
    diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected
    by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same
    pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits.”

    –Relethford JH.. 2001. Human skin color diversity is
    highest in sub-Saharan African populations.
    Hum Biol. 2001 Oct;73(5):629-36.

    As can be seen Relethford references (a) the already greater diversity of sub-Saharan Africans, which takes in genetic diversity and craniometric traits- nothing surprising given the evolution of anatomically modern humans in Africa. The origin point has greater diversity- everything else is a SUBSET of that diversity. Skin color is simply consistent with said pattern as Relethford shows. (b) Natural selection. This is basic Anthropology 101- nothing "fancy" about it.

    .
    It is true than the San have a yellowish complexion. Bantus (the group we are actually discussing), on the other hand, are generally exceedingly dark-skinned. When one sees an African-American with a lighter complexion, one naturally assumes partial European ancestry. So why is a similar thought process dismissed out of hand amongst Africans.
    You need to go through your thought process logically, for your notion that lighter skin in Africa must be due to some sort of "race mix" is contradicted by your own example. You mention the San, and admit they have pale skin, but don't seem to realize that your own statement contradicts your thought process. How did the San get yellow skin? Ancient Chinese colonists to the Kalahari or the Cape? Where is the evidence of these mysterious "Asiatic race mixers"? You don't have any.

    .
    Because the alleged admixture took place in prehistory?
    What admixture in pre-history gave the San yellow skin? You make all these sweeping pronouncements, but can produce nothing credible to back them up.

    .
    Neanderthal DNA has been found amongst Nigerians.
    But even if this is so, how did said Neanderthal DNA produce light skin in Nigerians? Once again, you merely assert that it is so, without producing a shred of credible evidence.

    .
    Eurasian admixure DID take place in that region of the world, the only question is whether this helps to explain Igbo intellectual achievement.
    But yet again, you only offer your own dubious opinion, without the slightest bit of credible evidence. Precisely when and how was said admixture and how did it affect Igbo intellectual achievement? You made the claim, but you have precious little to support it. When are you going to produce something credible?

    .
    And why is it that the pattern of light-skinned elites has manifested itself over and over throughout world history? South America, the Caribbean, the Middle East, India, and now Nigeria. Weird, no?
    No actually what's weird is your confused, laughable logic. The Igbo were no "light-skinned elite." In fact as shown above they did not match the power and sophistication of other more powerful empires and cultures around. And none of these other cultures were ruled by any "light skinned elite." Since when are the rulers of Benin for example a "light skinned" elite?

    .
    Ideologically addled people such as yourself can write 20 posts and link to 50 articles all you want, the individual trees do not obscure the forest at all.
    The only "addled" person is you, and I link to credible articles that debunk the rubbish you are pushing. You seem to be scared of actual credible scholarship- which is why you continuously try to avoid it. You and other intellectual lightweights can "hide" that scholarship, but it still does not change the fact that your claims are both dubious and false.

    Maybe you should be more careful about what you right,

    Fair point. After all, one can never be too careful in one’s righting. or reeding for that matter.

    I think a main problem we are having is that my comments are not addressed to people like you. If I was a masochist who wanted to try to convert the un-convertible, I would post on salon or huffingtonpost. But this is unz, where Steven Sailer lives, I assume a basic familiarity (and affinity) with HBD. Furthermore, this is a message board where brevity is important, and based on the general level of commenting on this site, I am assuming people are smart enough to get the basic gist of my argument without having to hold their hand.

    Peter Frost was the one who first said “You are assuming 3-4 races”. I immediately knew he was referring to the Rushton type classification, which is Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and Australoid. But for whatever reason, Australoids are often omitted for the sake of brevity, and since we are discussing Eurasian DNA in Africa, referring to Australoids didn’t seem important. Again, this is something that doesn’t need to be obsessed over for people who are familiar with the argument and can make a simple mental leap.

    Curiously enough, you can proffer nothing specific to support your claims. How exactly does Lewontin support you for example?

    Again, I am not here to hold your hand and patiently explain everything to you. I assume that most of the people who read this site are already well aware of who Richard Lewontin is, how his Marxism colored his science, Lewontin’s fallacy etc.

    As can be seen Relethford references (a) the already greater diversity of sub-Saharan Africans, which takes in genetic diversity and craniometric traits- nothing surprising given the evolution of anatomically modern humans in Africa. The origin point has greater diversity- everything else is a SUBSET of that diversity. Skin color is simply consistent with said pattern as Relethford shows. (b) Natural selection. This is basic Anthropology 101- nothing “fancy” about it.

    Again, you miss the point. And how many times are you going to cite your beloved Relethford?

    Let me try to make this clearer for you. Suppose there was an article that stated a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. All that would mean is that there is a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. Whether that diversity was something that was present 1500 years ago in the Arabian peninsula or whether the color diversity is a result of mating with and Arabizing people like the Persians and the Sudanese is not something that can be determined by the study.

    So is the diversity of skin colors among Bantus something intrinsic to Bantus or is it the result of admixture with different ethnicities who had different skin colors? Your beloved does not say, and that is why your endless citations of him are pointless.

    And this is a quote from the Razib Khan article recently posted on this site that seems germane..

    But the masking of Eurasian ancestry also highlighted something important: the genetic variation across African populations once you remove Eurasian ancestry is not that high.

    And as far as it being “basic Anthropology 101″, does this lecture come before or after the lecture on how race is a completely social construct? I am sure “Gender is a social construct” is basic Womyn’s Studies 101, but who cares?

    You need to go through your thought process logically, for your notion that lighter skin in Africa must be due to some sort of “race mix” is contradicted by your own example. You mention the San, and admit they have pale skin, but don’t seem to realize that your own statement contradicts your thought process. How did the San get yellow skin? Ancient Chinese colonists to the Kalahari or the Cape? Where is the evidence of these mysterious “Asiatic race mixers”? You don’t have any.

    Again, my only “mistake” was assuming you could make the sort of mental leaps that people with an IQ of say 120 make automatically.

    I DID make it clear we were talking not about the San, who have a nearly universal yellowish complexion and are often classified as another race (BUT I THOUGHT YOU SAID THERE WERE 4!!! When discussing Africa, Bantus, San, and Pygmies are often classified as 3 separate races (read syon’s comment #130 if you are still confused). Anyway, there is no reason to think that the San’s generally uniform skin complexion is the result of any race mixing. Now it is true I said light skin in African Americans is immediately thought to be the result of white admixture, so why not the same in Africans. But I assumed you knew we were still talking about Bantus (as I said Bantus are the group we are actually discussing). But for you, I will restate is as: When we see African Americans (who are overwhelmingly of Bantu origin) with light skin, we assume European admixture. So why is that when we see BANTU Africans (whose skin is generally exceedingly dark), that possibility is rejected out of hand? Because the alleged mixture took place in prehistory?

    So again, I do not assume EVERY African group has generally very dark skin. Not the San. Not the Boers. Not the people in the Maghreb. The Bantus only. Bantus Bantus Bantus.

    But even if this is so, how did said Neanderthal DNA produce light skin in Nigerians?

    Again, a small mental leap you were not able to make. So this one time I will spoonfeed you. Neanderthals lived in Eurasia. Neanderthals did not live in Africa. Neanderthals mated with Homo Sapiens. Neanderthal DNA is therefore present in modern humans. If a group of humans show Neanderthal DNA, then this means they had ancestors in Eurasia, since that is where Neanderthals and modern humans mated. If Africans are found to have Neanderthal DNA, then this means some of their ancestors were at one point in Eurasia.

    Now whether Neanderthals had the skin color of Taylor Swift or Lawrence Taylor is not relevant to the current argument. (Dipwill, it is also not relevant whether the Neanderthal brain was the size of a walnut or a watermelon.) The point of me bringing up the presence of Neanderthal DNA in Nigerians is ONLY that it is proof of partial Eurasian ancestry.

    What I do assume is that Eurasians likely had lighter skin than Bantus. So any offspring between Eurasians and Bantus would likely have lighter skin than Bantus without Eurasian admixture. Allow me to cite a recent credible article on Kanye West, a dark-skinned black man who recently had a daughter with a white woman. Now cutting edge spectral technology has given us tantalizing clues that this baby North has a complexion lighter than that of her black father yet darker than her white mother!! And this study helped me conclude that Africans with Eurasian admixture may be more light skinned.

    No actually what’s weird is your confused, laughable logic. The Igbo were no “light-skinned elite.”

    The Igbo are certainly an elite today. That IS the point of the Frost article, after all. And they are more light-skinned than other Nigerian tribes. And notice how you bring up Benin and totally ignore the ubiquitous and indisputable pattern of light-skinned elites seen throughout world history.

    I link to credible articles that debunk the rubbish you are pushing. You seem to be scared of actual credible scholarship- which is why you continuously try to avoid it. You and other intellectual lightweights

    You endlessly link to articles in the vain hopes that breadth of knowledge can substitute for depth of intellect and insight. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way. I am not scared of your “credible” scholarship (notice how you use the word credible as this weird mantra, probably because you know someone else could as easily link to scholarly articles that conclude the exact opposite of what your articles say, but of course those articles would be non-credible).
    I just think looking at 50 leaves under an electron microscope is not the best way to comprehend the forest. Also, as we went over with the Relethford thing, what an article says and the ideologically addled conclusions you reach from them are two vastly different things. And thirdly, considering many of the researchers themselves share your ideological commitments, the fact that a scholar says something doesn’t mean much on its own (see Lewontin, Gould).

    I know you will never believe me, but you are not even half as smart as you think, and all this lightweight stuff and lols are just projection. So be it. I leave you to snark away and write 20 more posts at your leisure.

    A couple of last thoughts. The amount of pompous bullshittery on this comment thread is a sight to behold. Look at FirstPerson’s comment #176.

    The problem bedeviling people wondering about neanderthal admixture being found among a few Nigerians is the poor lack of knowledge of the history of that region that some here seem to have. I can go into detail if needed

    Fulanis came to Nigeria in the 16th century and again in the 18th century so any slight Eurasian DNA that they contributed to any peoples to the south of them has nothing to do with “ancient Eurasian migration” but to recent intermarriage and assimilation.

    Perhaps geneticists or genetics obsessed amateur anthropologists would do better to read more about the peoples they are speculating about in detail. If they do this they can avoid making the wrong assumption that some slight Eurasian DNA in (or derived from) some northern Nigerians who derived it from Northern Africans is evidence of ancient Eurasian admixture of Igbos or similar nonsense.

    Now let’s quote some snippets from the aforementioned Razib Khan article posted on this site in December…

    What is more interesting is that they observed Eurasian admixture within Yoruba people. This admixture has been suggested by others, as the Yoruba have traces of Neandertal ancestry. This group dates the admixture back to nearly 10,000 years ago, so it as likely associated with goings on that were trans-Saharan. If that is the case these were almost certain quasi-Eurasian hunter-gatherers, and their ancestry might have been diminished in current North African groups subject to waves of farmers issuing from the east during the Neolithic. But there is also admixture with Eurasians further east in Uganda among Bantu groups.

    Though the Eurasian admixture story among these populations is fascinating, there is also nuance in the input of hunter-gatherer ancestry within West African and Bantu populations. First, I suspect that these estimates are low bounds, because they don’t have exact reference populations. Some of the hunter-gatherers mixed into the Igbo and Bantu groups may have been more like agriculturalists than the extant hunter-gatherer groups within Africa.

    The only complicating issue is that of Eurasian admixture; it seems likely that for very old admixture events we’re seeing underestimates, or they aren’t picked up. In other words, the “reference” Sub-Saharan Africans themselves are compounds of people who remained within Africa, and Out of Africa.

    So, other than the fact that you were off on the time of Neanderthal admixture by ohhh about 9500 years and incorrectly limited said mixture to Northern Nigerians everything you said was totally correct! Way to clear things up!!

    Again, this combination of absolute certitude and absolute talking out of one’s arse is par for the course for people who can’t bear to think that race and intelligence may be strongly linked.

    And there have been multiple comments insisting that other than a lighter skin color, the Igbo have no sign of Eurasian admixture. Do these people think that repeating this statement often enough will somehow make it true? Have these people actually seen many Igbos? There is a reason biracial Thandie Newton was cast to play an Igbo woman in a recent movie, and that there are endless message boards on the internet asking whether the Igbo are mixed-race, and why some Igbos themselves believe they have some Jewish ancestry.

    Sorry for the long post, that will be all from me. And to all those high-achieving Igbos out there, keep up the good work! :)

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    "The Igbo are certainly an elite today. That IS the point of the Frost article, after all. And they are more light-skinned than other Nigerian tribes."

    There are lots of dark skinned Igbos and there are other peoples like the Ibibio, Ekoi and Annang that have as many light skinned people in their populations as the Igbo yet are not as "elite" in terms of intellectual or economic achievement in modern times as some other peoples in Nigeria that do not have as great a proportion of light skinned people.

    "What is more interesting is that they observed Eurasian admixture within Yoruba people. This admixture has been suggested by others, as the Yoruba have traces of Neandertal ancestry. This group dates the admixture back to nearly 10,000 years ago, so it as likely associated with goings on that were trans-Saharan. If that is the case these were almost certain quasi-Eurasian hunter-gatherers, and their ancestry might have been diminished in current North African groups subject to waves of farmers issuing from the east during the Neolithic. But there is also admixture with Eurasians further east in Uganda among Bantu groups.

    Though the Eurasian admixture story among these populations is fascinating, there is also nuance in the input of hunter-gatherer ancestry within West African and Bantu populations. First, I suspect that these estimates are low bounds, because they don’t have exact reference populations. Some of the hunter-gatherers mixed into the Igbo and Bantu groups may have been more like agriculturalists than the extant hunter-gatherer groups within Africa.

    The only complicating issue is that of Eurasian admixture; it seems likely that for very old admixture events we’re seeing underestimates, or they aren’t picked up. In other words, the “reference” Sub-Saharan Africans themselves are compounds of people who remained within Africa, and Out of Africa.

    So, other than the fact that you were off on the time of Neanderthal admixture by ohhh about 9500 years and incorrectly limited said mixture to Northern Nigerians everything you said was totally correct! Way to clear things up!!"


    You seem to be having difficulty with reading comprehension.

    1. I said the neanderthal ancestry in Yoruba is from Hausa or Fulani and similar northern Nigerian groups not that it was limited to Northern Nigerians and I said that Fulani came to Nigeria in the 16th and 18th century which they in fact did. Nobody knows when Hausa or Fulani acquired their Eurasian ancestry but I have no problem with it being 10,000 years ago at all - after all the Hausa speak an Afroasiatic language and may have intermarried with other Afroasiatic language groups that have Eurasian ancestry thousands of years ago before they diverged from other Afroasiatic language populations and migrated to their present location in Nigeria. Similarly with the Fulani and their interaction with North Africans thousands of years ago before moving into Nigeria in the 16th and 18th centuries.

    The fact of Hausa or Fulanis acquiring such Eurasian ancestry perhaps 10,000 years ago and then some of these Hausa and Fulani marrying Yorubas says literally nothing about Eurasian ancestry in Igbos and nobody has found actual Eurasian ancestry in Igbos.

    2. I did not say Eurasian ancestry was not present in other parts of Africa. I addressed why it was found even in a southern Nigerian group like the Yoruba and explained that some northern Nigerians were already known to have Eurasian ancestry. Read before jumping to conclusions.

    3. Uganda had a significant Arab presence in the past and there were Arab merchants there during the slave trade and slave raids, plus some of them could have easily intermarried with other east African peoples that are already known to have some Eurasian ancestry obtained long ago. It has no significance in the context of this discussion.

    4. Razib Khan, like you, is amateurish.


    "Again, this combination of absolute certitude and absolute talking out of one’s arse is par for the course for people who can’t bear to think that race and intelligence may be strongly linked."

    The irony here is overwhelming.

    You know basically nothing about the region in question yet are absolutely certain that your ridiculous ideas are true.

    "And there have been multiple comments insisting that other than a lighter skin color, the Igbo have no sign of Eurasian admixture. Do these people think that repeating this statement often enough will somehow make it true? Have these people actually seen many Igbos? There is a reason biracial Thandie Newton was cast to play an Igbo woman in a recent movie, and that there are endless message boards on the internet asking whether the Igbo are mixed-race, and why some Igbos themselves believe they have some Jewish ancestry."

    Have you ever been to Nigeria or seen Igbos in their part of Nigeria? Have you actually seen many Igbos?

    Have you ever been to other areas Nigeria? Have you actually seen many other non-Igbo Nigerians?

    You seem generally poorly informed.

    , @Truth
    "There is a reason biracial Thandie Newton was cast to play an Igbo woman in a recent movie,"

    LMAO! Why yes there is Old Bean, It's just to bad that you ain't smart enough to figure out what it is.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/11/zoe-saldana-nina-simone-criticism_n_7564452.html

    I love this Kat. He's rapidly turning into one of my favorite posters.
    , @Enrique Cardova
    I am assuming people are smart enough to get the basic gist of my argument without having to hold their hand.

    When your arguments are full of rubbish you usually assume quite erroneously, as demonstrated above, and below.

    .
    But for whatever reason, Australoids are often omitted for the sake of brevity, and since we are discussing Eurasian DNA in Africa, referring to Australoids didn’t seem important. Again, this is something that doesn’t need to be obsessed over for people who are familiar with the argument and can make a simple mental leap.


    .
    Simplistic mental leap sums up much of what you claim, as the case of the Australoids shows. And said Australoids are important for when you assert these "fundamental" HBD tenets like the "3 races," to leave them out only demonstrates how dubious said tenets are. Why would they be oft enomitted if your model asserts only the 3 races? What does this say about your touted HBD model?

    .
    Again, I am not here to hold your hand and patiently explain everything to you. I assume that most of the people who read this site are already well aware of who Richard Lewontin is, how his Marxism colored his science, Lewontin’s fallacy etc.

    lol, you are simply ducking an dodging. You have no idea what you are talking about and throwing out glib phrases about "marxism colored" etc as cover still doesn't cut it. How specifically does Lewontin support your claim? For an HBD expert like you answering that should be easy. What's taking you so long?


    .
    Again, you miss the point. And how many times are you going to cite your beloved Relethford?
    And how many times do you try to shift exposure of the dubious claims you are pushing? You earlier called Relethford's data "fancy", as a way to run away from it. Whatsa matter? Is it too hard for you?

    .
    Let me try to make this clearer for you. Suppose there was an article that stated a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. All that would mean is that there is a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. Whether that diversity was something that was present 1500 years ago in the Arabian peninsula or whether the color diversity is a result of mating with and Arabizing people like the Persians and the Sudanese is not something that can be determined by the study.

    What you say makes little sense. Why do you assume a study on skin color would have nothing to say about sources of the skin color variation? Almost all studies on skin color do- Relethford above, which you keep ruining away from, as well as people like Jablonski (2000, 2010).

    .
    So is the diversity of skin colors among Bantus something intrinsic to Bantus or is it the result of admixture with different ethnicities who had different skin colors?

    You asserted that it was due to some sort of race mix, but when asked for evidence you run away behind a smokescreen of glibness. What's taking you, the HBD expert, so long in laying out some credible evidence and scholarship in support of your claim? Lewontin does not lend any support at all to such a claim. When are you going to actually produce something, credible, rather than run away?

    .
    And this is a quote from the Razib Khan article recently posted on this site that seems germane..
    --- But the masking of Eurasian ancestry also highlighted something important: the genetic variation across African populations once you remove Eurasian ancestry is not that high.


    This does not help your case at all, and it is not really germane to the matter at hand on skin color re the Igbo. Khan does not dispute that Africans have the greatest genetic diversity. In fact he admits it, saying "Nick Patterson" told him much diversity is within populations. Sure, no one disputes that. The bottom line - they both admit that greater diversity is still there, which conforms what Relethford says above. Khan also proffers much personal opinion in his spiel, but that does not change the bottom line found by credible genetic scientists (not bloggers) who are actually in the field. Your Khan quote again does little to help you case re the Igbo. You are only throwing it out to pretend that you have some grounds to stand on. Its like your vague, catch all "Lewontin" blurb- you can't cite anything SPECIFIC, so you use that as a smokescreen, a typical "HBD" approach. But no one is being fooled.

    .
    Anyway, there is no reason to think that the San’s generally uniform skin complexion is the result of any race mixing.

    But earlier you asserted just such a claim, and you also suggest above that anyone with HBD knowledge would easily see and accept it. Why are you, the HBD expert guy, now trying to back away from the claim you so boldly asserted earlier?

    .
    When we see African Americans (who are overwhelmingly of Bantu origin) with light skin, we assume European admixture. So why is that when we see BANTU Africans (whose skin is generally exceedingly dark), that possibility is rejected out of hand? Because the alleged mixture took place in prehistory?

    For one thing, African Americans are not "overwhelmingly" of "Bantu" origin. This is yet another BS claim of yours, and you still don't know what you are talking about. Here's some actual data once again debunking the nonsensical claims you make.

    We found that all the African Americans are admixed in the African component of their ancestry, with estimated contributions of 19% West (for example, Mandenka), 63% West Central (for example, Yoruba), and 14% South West Central or Eastern (for example, Bantu speakers), with little variation among individuals.” (Zakharia et al., 2009, Characterizing the admixed African ancestry of African Americans.Genome Bio, v10, Is12. p.8)
     
    ^^Oooh! Look! Notice an actual scholarly citation! DO you think this is "too "fancy" for you to grasp?

    .
    Neanderthals lived in Eurasia. Neanderthals did not live in Africa. Neanderthals mated with Homo Sapiens. Neanderthal DNA is therefore present in modern humans. If a group of humans show Neanderthal DNA, then this means they had ancestors in Eurasia, since that is where Neanderthals and modern humans mated. If Africans are found to have Neanderthal DNA, then this means some of their ancestors were at one point in Eurasia.

    lol, you have been spoon feeding yourself too much of your own "obvious" gruel. None of the above supports your claim. How did Neanderthal skin color come to be reflected in the Igbo, since you keep claiming all this great "racial admixture"? Once again, you have noting credible to put on the table, only glib nonsense.

    .
    Now whether Neanderthals had the skin color of Taylor Swift or Lawrence Taylor is not relevant to the current argument. (Dipwill, it is also not relevant whether the Neanderthal brain was the size of a walnut or a watermelon.) The point of me bringing up the presence of Neanderthal DNA in Nigerians is ONLY that it is proof of partial Eurasian ancestry.

    But actually it is quite relevant. You THINK you have some sort of "supporting" point which is why you cite the Neanderthal example. You want to use the Neanderthals as your "Eurasian" kinda "race mixer." But the example falls flat and you still can produce no credible scholarship showing this Igbo skin color variation is due to Neanderthals. You want to, but fail repeatedly.

    .
    Allow me to cite a recent credible article on Kanye West, a dark-skinned black man who recently had a daughter with a white woman. Now cutting edge spectral technology has given us tantalizing clues that this baby North has a complexion lighter than that of her black father yet darker than her white mother!! And this study helped me conclude that Africans with Eurasian admixture may be more light skinned.

    But what you are saying here is not at issue. Of course in the modern era Kanye and Kim will have a child with lighter skin. No one is "debating" that. What is at issue is your claim that skin color variation in Africa, specifically among the Igbo, is due to some sort of race mix. You fail repeatedly in your claim. Failing with the Igbo, you now cast your ramshackle net wider to conjure a 'Neanderthal into Nigeria" angle. But once again, you can produce no credible evidence that such is responsible for any skin color variation among the Igbo, or in Nigeria.


    .
    The Igbo are certainly an elite today. That IS the point of the Frost article, after all. And they are more light-skinned than other Nigerian tribes. And notice how you bring up Benin and totally ignore the ubiquitous and indisputable pattern of light-skinned elites seen throughout world history.

    I said the Igbo were no light-skined elite and even today only SOME Igbo have such skin. Most of them are dark skinned people (Chuku (2013). Also, the Igbo were less advanced than many of the larger, more powerful, sophisticated cultures round them. As shown above the Igbo borrowed liberally from advanced art and technology already developed regionally, and adapted them to their own use. The Igbo were no "elite" until well into the 20th century.

    And this is the second time you assert your mystical claim of an allegedly "ubiquitous and indisputable pattern" of light-skinned elites seen throughout world history. I already gave the example of Benin and you duck it because it debunked your mystical claim. But we need not stop with Benin. Tell us, who were these mysterious "light skinned elites" than ran the Mali empire, or Ghana? How about the Zulu? Shaka or his predecessors were of the "light skinned elite"? lol..

    .

    (notice how you use the word credible as this weird mantra, probably because you know someone else could as easily link to scholarly articles that conclude the exact opposite of what your articles say, but of course those articles would be non-credible).

    lol, it is no mantra, it is straight fact, that again and again, debunks the rubbish you are pushing including these mystical "light skinned" "elites". And since you can't do it, where are the HBD experts that conclude the "exact opposite" of what Relethford and others cited above say?

    .
    And thirdly, considering many of the researchers themselves share your ideological commitments, the fact that a scholar says something doesn’t mean much on its own (see Lewontin, Gould).

    You can't even keep your own logic straight, though you write plenty, but still strangely, cannot even produce a credible citation in support of the rickety claims you keep making. Up above you say Lewontin is Marxist etc etc, but then you invoke him in support of your claims. When challenged as to where Lewontin specifically proffers such support you run away to hide behind a smokescreen that does little to conceal your lack of knowledge.
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  • I am really not sure where you get the idea that the Hausa developed it much later in time, because the Hausa as a people didn’t come together until the early middle ages and we find metal smelting in other parts of West Africa from well before that.

    There seems to be some confusion over the term “metallurgy.” It’s not just smelting. It’s also metalworking and techniques like wire making, soldering, and riveting.

    The problem with your arguments about the Igbo being likely as intelligent as they are due to their history is that you don’t have much of a coherent timeline [...] when were the Igbo known to have been trading heavily with others, or atleast be prominent traders in this region? The paper you cite alludes to this being why so much iron was produced in 765 BC, but what about in 2,000 BC, the earliest one? What was the impetus for the Igbo developing iron so early? Is there any evidence the earliest iron smelting relates to trade? Exactly when do the ancient egyptian beads date to? These beads were found in Igbo-Ukwu, but Igbo-Ukwu dates to the central middle ages. The art at Igbo-Ukwu wasn’t produced until close to well over 1,000 years after the major iron production in 765 BC, and the other major artistic traditions in Nigeria, Ile Ife and Benin, developed a few to several centuries after Igbo-Ukwu

    With due respect, you seem to be a bit confused about the timeline. Igbo-Ukwu dates to the 9th century, which is hardly the central middle ages. Perhaps I should put this all in point form to make it clear:

    2,000 BC – earliest evidence of iron smelting in the Niger Delta. This may or may not involve ancestral Igbo and it may or may not indicate smelting for trade.

    765 BC – evidence of large-scale iron smelting in excess of local needs. This may be evidence of production for trade.

    9th century – advanced metallurgy at Igbo-Ukwu (wire making, soldering, riveting). Copper, bronze, and iron manufacture. Evidence of metallurgy at this site at later dates, suggesting continuous use up to the historic period.

    11th-12th centuries – assemblages of beads from Gao (eastern Mali) that are very similar to beads recovered from Igbo-Ukwu. Evidence of long-distance trade.

    1500 – mid-19th century – Igbo domination of regional trade in salt, cloth, and beads.

    late 19th century onward – British colonial rule. Emigration of Igbo merchants to west and north of Nigeria.

    My main point is twofold:

    1- Metallurgy began in the Niger Delta much earlier than at other sites in West Africa. It also reached an advanced level of sophistication that in some ways surpassed what we see in Europe and the Middle East of that time period. Finally, this tradition of metallurgy seems to have been largely of indigenous origin.

    2. Comparable metallurgy (not smelting) began later at other sites in West Africa. It also seems to have been made possible by royal patronage in centralized states. I suggested that the slave trade (Atlantic and Transsaharan) provided these African rulers with the means to pay for this metalworking. You seem to disagree with me on this point, and bitterly so. This is the case with another commenter who sees it as proof of gross incompetence on my part.

    Let’s be honest with each other. Does it bother you that some African groups may be as intelligent as most Eurasians? Is that the underlying issue? Normally, people don’t feel so bitter over such issues as to the degree to which state formation in West Africa was stimulated by the slave trade.

    I think if we take the totality of achievement as indicative of intelligence in Nigeria, the Igbo are outclassed by other groups.

    Which groups?

    this is a point raised in Ferguson’s critique of Cochran and Harpending, that the money-lending positions of the Ashkenazi were so intensively selective

    Trade isn’t simply money lending. It’s also responding to your economic environment in a much more dynamic way than is the case with simple farmers, serfs, or people working in patron/client relationships. This is a point where I’ve disagreed with Greg.

    Regarding your wikipedia citation on the Benin Empire, it does not at all say Portuguese trade was the impetus for Benin’s formation. The Portuguese contacted them in 1485, 45 years after Benin became an empire, not a city-state, so Benin as a city-state existed for even longer before the Portuguese, and urbanization even moreso.

    I cited wiki because I didn’t want to cite a French-language source that most people here would not understand. But let’s quote the Wiki passage in question:

    “By the 15th century, Edo as a system of protected settlements expanded into a thriving city-state. In the 15th century, the twelfth Oba in line, Oba Ewuare the Great (1440–1473) would expand the city-state to an empire.

    It was not until the 15th century during the reign of Oba Ewuare the Great that the kingdom’s administrative centre, the city Ubinu, began to be known as Benin City by the Portuguese, and would later be adopted by the locals as well.”

    The Portuguese arrived in this region in 1471, when they discovered that Arab and Berber traders were already present. They were trading in gold and slaves (so the slave trade was already present at that time).

    I don’t wish to belabor this question ad infinitum. I was simply arguing that the slave trade provided the Benin rulers with the means that made royal patronage of metalworking possible.

    What does it matter whether it was produced under royal patronage and not trade?

    Because royal patronage implies an ability to recruit (or abduct) talented individuals from a wide geographical area. It also implies a centralization of wealth flows, with much wealth being concentrated in the hands of a few individuals. This was not the case with the Igbo, among whom power was much more diffusely distributed.

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    "1500 – mid-19th century – Igbo domination of regional trade in salt, cloth, and beads."


    There is no evidence for this but perhaps you mean that in their particular part of Nigeria they dominated regional trade in those things but for other parts of Nigeria they did not dominate any of that trade.

    "This is the case with another commenter who sees it as proof of gross incompetence on my part."

    I have not called you incompetent yet, I have just implied that you seem unwilling to do more basic research and gain a rudimentary understanding of the area you are writing about yet are unreasonably adamant in holding to your strange interpretation of the regional history of the area.

    "The Portuguese arrived in this region in 1471, when they discovered that Arab and Berber traders were already present. They were trading in gold and slaves (so the slave trade was already present at that time). "

    They did not arrive there because they "discovered that Arab and Berber traders were already present" and there is no evidence that they discovered Arab and Berber traders "already present" in Benin when they arrived. Plus much of the trade was in pepper and gold was not a major article of trade for Benin but perhaps you mean it was what the Portuguese were trading in.

    "I was simply arguing that the slave trade provided the Benin rulers with the means that made royal patronage of metalworking possible."

    And you would be wrong again since there is Benin royal art that predates that time but regardless this does not address the issue of the Ife royal art which has even more pieces that predate that time.

    "It also implies a centralization of wealth flows, with much wealth being concentrated in the hands of a few individuals. This was not the case with the Igbo, among whom power was much more diffusely distributed."

    Do you realize that the finds at Igbo Ukwu have been interpreted by some (including by Thurstan Shaw, the man who excavated most of them) as associated with a traditional divine kingship in that area? Some of the Igbo Ukwu items - a flywhisk, a scabbard, a staff, a bronze belt, etc. - could easily have been part of a royal regalia. Why assume there was no "royal patronage" in making the Igbo Ukwu art when it was concentrated in one area and seems to include items often associated with kingship.

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  • @Deduction
    Comparing medical scores is unfair. Black medical students in Britain are able to benefit from racial discrimination and so have a lower hurdle to jump when entering medical school.

    It would be very surprising therefore if they did not have a lower score on that test.

    It is likewise true that blacks in the US have very aggressive Affirmative Action working in their favor, so that the comparison between the two groups on the basis of their performance on the medical school tests is pretty fair.

    Moreover, the number of blacks in England who take the medical school cognitive test seem to be in rough proportion to their numbers in the relevant cohort — about 6%. (While the overall proportion of blacks in England is about 3.5%, they have about half again as many proportionately in the relevant young cohort as whites.)

    This means that comparing the relative scores of whites vs. blacks in England who do well on this metric is basically quite fair, especially when the absolute difference — over 1 SD — is so great. Minor adjustments due to relative representation are not going to have a significant impact on the implications of those starkly different numbers.

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    I am not agreeing with Deduction's comment or anything but I just want to point out that regardless of all of this, different groups of blacks in the UK simply do not have the same statistics in other areas - certainly the Afro-Caribbean blacks do not have the same statistics by any means as the Nigerians. So the "black" category of that UK CAT is kind of worthless and misleading for the purposes of resolving the issue discussed in this comment thread.
    , @Enrique Cardova
    t is likewise true that blacks in the US have very aggressive Affirmative Action working in their favor, so that the comparison between the two groups on the basis of their performance on the medical school tests is pretty fair.

    Not really. US blacks don't have any "very aggressive Affirmative Action working in their favor." This is a myth. From their very inception, AA has been throttled and sandbagged, from union opposition to Richard Nixon's famous 1969 "Philadelphia Plan" to the Reagan regime's 1980s rolling back EEO enforcement and oversight, with big cuts to the EEOC budget that created a backlog measured in YEARS. Furthermore, quotas were diluted using a variety of devices from the get-go. Some workplaces went the “tokenism” route- hire a few blacks to make a lawsuit go away and prevent the lawyers from digging too deeply into racist practices.

    And where quotas did go into effect they were quickly expanded to cover white women, and in time, the bulk of the beneficiaries of quotas became white women. In fact since the 1980s, courts have sharply limited the use of "quotas" in contracting as demonstrated in the Croson case (1989) which ruled against minority-only contract awards, and the Adarand case (1990). In short, while courts have not entirely killed Affirmative Action or "diversity", from the 1980s they have sharply limited its applicability. And this was over 2 decades ago. California's famous Proposition 209 which outlawed was in 1996, almost 20 years ago.

    As far as admissions quotas are a small factor in black higher education. In the 2006 Fisher case fr example, out of over 100 students in the contested admission pool, blacks and Hispanics weighted in at 5 bodies, barely 3-5%. And there is/was always a small percentage of black students who never needed quotas in the first place. See Sanders book- Mismatch where the end of AA quotas in one studied high-end law school STILL left behind about 3% of the slots for blacks. These remaining blacks did NOT need quotas.

    On the employment front again alleged AA quotas "swamping" white people turn out to be phantoms. One study of govt contractors with AA between 1974 and 1980, for instance, Leonard (1984;1990) finds that among contractors black male employment rose from 5.8% to 6.7, an unimpressive .9 percent, LESS than even 1%- rather trivial. As regards the professors on campus, the "very aggressive quotas" alleged are rather thin gruel, despite massive neocon propaganda barrages. One study for example found that when AA started up:

    "The catastrophic scenarios conjured by the neo-conservatives and the [Jewish] agencies never came to pass. In fact between 1968 and 1973, blacks' share of total university faculty jobs grew from 2.2 to 2.9 percent; with historically black colleges and universities removed from the calculations, blacks made up only 0.9 percent of the professoriate. Over the next twenty years, black representation among full-time faculty members grew only .05 percent...

    The federal government has barked but never bitten in academe as in construction: by 1980, not a single college or university in the country had lost federal monies for failure to comply with anti-discrimination law. A few leaders later acknowledged that affirmative action had caused no discernible loss of jobs for Jews, and that, quite to the contrary, Jewish women had benefited. Surveying 'the impact o affirmative action on Jews' in 1976, an AJC leader concluded that it 'has not had catastrophic impact,' though particular individuals might have 'suffered mightily.' How many though, 'nobody seems to know,' and no one had bothered to collect data beyond the anecdotal. Nor had anyone adduced figures proving that Jewish students had lost out across the board in admission to law or medical school."
    --Nancy MacLean 2008. Freedom Is Not Enough: The Opening of the American Workplace. p. 218
     
    ^^Read Ron Unz's analysis of meritocracy, and analysis of how Asians are being treated, and you will see standard neocon narratives about "quotas" in this area are not all they are made out to be.
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  • @FirstPerson
    "You are wrong to claim there’s no eurasian admixture in southern nigerians (and that horn africans are heavily eurasian, but that’s another topic), because it has been verified that faint Neanderthal admixture exists in most africans, primarily by way of interactions between the founder populations of black africans and non-black north africans in the sahara several thousand years ago."

    How can this have been verified for "most Africans" when detailed genetic studies have not even been carried out on most Africans? Are you sure about this?

    I did not claim that "horn Africans are heavily eurasian." I said the Fulani, even having some slight Eurasian admixture as they do, do not have as much as some peoples in the Horn of Africa.


    "Since you bring up the Fulani and mixture in west africa, it’s worth touching on the idea that arabs/berbers and mixed populations in west africa are the ones who are responsible for the muslim states and such in the sahel."

    I did not claim that Arabs or Berbers are responsible for those mulsim states. I have read about the actual history of that area in great detail long before this comment thread. But I see why you would bring this up for other people reading who may be less informed.

    "So the idea the Igbo are mixed (despite having no identifiably non-african features aside from lighter skin color) and this accounts for their achievement is even more far-fetched."

    There are lots of dark skinned Igbos and there are lighter skinned unmixed non-Igbos in other parts of Nigeria. Yes there are light skinned Igbos and Igbos probably have a greater proportion of them than some other peoples nearby (although other people like the Annang, Ibibio, and Ekoi also seem to have similar proportion whereas peoples outside of the more heavily forested areas of west Africa, in the savannah and desert areas often seem to have fewer light skinned people) but having variation in skin color (dark, light or in between) is nothing unique to the Igbo and visitors to Nigeria have noted such variation in skin color among Nigerians, as among black Africans generally, even before there was a country or colony called Nigeria.

    You are misconstruing what I’m arguing because I wasn’t saying that to argue against you, I was highlighting the speciousness of arguments about non-africans being behind the achievements of medieval west africa since this comment thread has been skirting it.

    But yes, I am sure neanderthal admixture has been found in most africans- here is one paper: http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/2013/10/neandertal-admixture-in-africans-a-back-migration-confirmed/

    This paper claims it’s primarily in east africans (including the isolated, stone age sandawe and hadza) which surprises me a bit, but there is indeed neanderthal admixture in west africans as well.

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    I was not under the impression that you were "arguing against me" I just found that you misread what I said about Horn of Africans.

    I also disagree with your claim about "most Africans" and neanderthal admixture because you have not provided the required proof and I am not aware of any proof of such for other groups. I was already aware of the east African neanderthal DNA discussed in that paper but we are discussing Igbos.

    I also disagreed with your characterization of lighter brown skin as a non-African feature. It is found not only among the Igbos in Nigeria (as just one place in Africa where it is found) and there are many dark skinned Igbos anyhow.

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  • @Deduction
    I really don't understand why you're pursuing an argument about population genetics with a sample size of one.

    Also, I do not think you understand what the thrust of my argument was. Candid_observer believed that national merit semifinalist data from Nigerians is the measure to use to determine whether Nigerians are performing at the same level as other groups that are performing well, yet there are even recent examples of high achieving Nigerian students covered in the media (there may be more that are not covered by the media) who may not have taken the PSAT.

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    • Replies: @Deduction
    Talking with Chisala's fans is like talking with a lawyer.

    You came up with an example of one Nigerian who did not take a specific test. Since it is one example it is entirely meaningless.

    You did not come up with any reason or evidence why Nigerians as a whole are not taking that test.

    Stop arguing around the point of everything. You know your example is meaningless!

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  • @Stan D Mute

    GCSE’s are largely based on coursework and cheating is rife. A-levels and university finals exams are a better proxy.
     
    I made the same comment to Chisala's original article. I call more PC propaganda here.

    Show me the objective g-loaded tests like SAT, IQ, ASVAB.

    Still, Frost went a long way toward a more convincing argument here. I still want to see the objective test data.

    I do not think there are that many Nigerian origin (or other direct African origin) applicants to the U.S. armed forces although I have read of some people in the armed forces that are of Nigerian origin, so ASVAB data may be quite difficult to gather.

    Separating SAT scores by origin rather than just race would also be quite difficult to do accurately which may be why no one has done it yet.

    Chisala gave his opinion on the objections to his reference to the GSCE data in this comment on the original article here:

    http://www.unz.com/article/the-iq-gap-is-no-longer-a-black-and-white-issue/#comment-988418

    I do think that more data needs to be collected before reaching any definite conclusion but I doubt there is any deliberate propaganda at work.

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  • Sean says:

    The point is not whether there was admixture of genes for high IQ into the Igbo, it is whether the mode of existence of the Igbo was different to other sub Saharan Africans, and could have favoured high IQ genes (of whatever origin) over others in the Igbo gene pool.

    It is quite possible Igbo have higher cognitive ability than working class whites, but Lambeth is perhaps a place where the average school performance of white children is deceptively low (or deliberately lowered by the system)

    WHITE working class children are being “marginalised” at school after being forced to follow a multicultural timetable that shuns British traditions, according to research. [in Lambeth]

    The is similar confusion about how Neanderthal genes became common in Europeans. The Neanderthal genes for colouring needed a selection pressure to become common. Light skin and diverse hair and eye colours became selected for among the Ice Age steppe tundra hunters, at the end of the Ice Age the hunters followed the reindeer herds north to Scandinavia as the ice retreated north. The finding of light skin and eye genes (and probably blonde hair) in pre agricultural era Swedish (Motala) hunter gatherers proves that. The Motala hunter gatherers have genetic similarities with the Yamnaya who did not arrive in Sweden until millennia after the Motola people were alive . So some of the Ice Age Europeans wandered east at the end of the Ice Age and mixed with other peoples became the Yamnaya, and them moved west to conquer much of north Europe and contribute quite a bit of the ancestry of modern Europeans.

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  • @Deduction
    I really don't understand why you're pursuing an argument about population genetics with a sample size of one.

    What detailed arguments have I made about population genetics? I have mainly discussed the national merit scholarship issue and the historical claims made by Frost in his replies to comments on his article.

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  • @Dipwill
    You are wrong to claim there's no eurasian admixture in southern nigerians (and that horn africans are heavily eurasian, but that's another topic), because it has been verified that faint Neanderthal admixture exists in most africans, primarily by way of interactions between the founder populations of black africans and non-black north africans in the sahara several thousand years ago.

    Since you bring up the Fulani and mixture in west africa, it's worth touching on the idea that arabs/berbers and mixed populations in west africa are the ones who are responsible for the muslim states and such in the sahel. This is a very old idea, and I've come to realize has virtually no basis and functions basically as a kneejerk explanation people resort to when confronted with the reality of civilization in that region. When you really look at the nature of the mixed populations there, the Fulani and Tuareg (along with how the black populations are clearly homogenous by how dark they are, or how negroid looking many Tuareg are), the whole thing kind of falls apart. The Fulani and Tuareg have long been overwhelmingly nomads and the Fulani didn't really make any attempts at state building until after the fall of Songhai. The Fulani, before this, were variously exploited by the settled african states. The Tuareg about 20 years ago numbered just over 1 million, and when you compare this to the Fulani, who number over 40 million today and are found in most countries in West Africa, it stands to reason they haven't had a very extensive urban history. You could undoubtedly say the Tuareg have been highly economically influential throughout the region's history (they still play a major role in the salt trade and founded Timbuktu), but they have not been state builders or rulers.

    So the idea the Igbo are mixed (despite having no identifiably non-african features aside from lighter skin color) and this accounts for their achievement is even more far-fetched.

    You are wrong to claim there’s no eurasian admixture in southern nigerians (and that horn africans are heavily eurasian, but that’s another topic), because it has been verified that faint Neanderthal admixture exists in most africans, primarily by way of interactions between the founder populations of black africans and non-black north africans in the sahara several thousand years ago.

    How can this have been verified for “most Africans” when detailed genetic studies have not even been carried out on most Africans? Are you sure about this?

    I did not claim that “horn Africans are heavily eurasian.” I said the Fulani, even having some slight Eurasian admixture as they do, do not have as much as some peoples in the Horn of Africa.

    Since you bring up the Fulani and mixture in west africa, it’s worth touching on the idea that arabs/berbers and mixed populations in west africa are the ones who are responsible for the muslim states and such in the sahel.

    I did not claim that Arabs or Berbers are responsible for those mulsim states. I have read about the actual history of that area in great detail long before this comment thread. But I see why you would bring this up for other people reading who may be less informed.

    “So the idea the Igbo are mixed (despite having no identifiably non-african features aside from lighter skin color) and this accounts for their achievement is even more far-fetched.”

    There are lots of dark skinned Igbos and there are lighter skinned unmixed non-Igbos in other parts of Nigeria. Yes there are light skinned Igbos and Igbos probably have a greater proportion of them than some other peoples nearby (although other people like the Annang, Ibibio, and Ekoi also seem to have similar proportion whereas peoples outside of the more heavily forested areas of west Africa, in the savannah and desert areas often seem to have fewer light skinned people) but having variation in skin color (dark, light or in between) is nothing unique to the Igbo and visitors to Nigeria have noted such variation in skin color among Nigerians, as among black Africans generally, even before there was a country or colony called Nigeria.

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    • Replies: @Dipwill
    You are misconstruing what I'm arguing because I wasn't saying that to argue against you, I was highlighting the speciousness of arguments about non-africans being behind the achievements of medieval west africa since this comment thread has been skirting it.

    But yes, I am sure neanderthal admixture has been found in most africans- here is one paper: http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/2013/10/neandertal-admixture-in-africans-a-back-migration-confirmed/

    This paper claims it's primarily in east africans (including the isolated, stone age sandawe and hadza) which surprises me a bit, but there is indeed neanderthal admixture in west africans as well.

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  • @22pp22
    Don't trust GCSE's. O-levels were entirely exam based and hard to falsify. GCSE's are largely based on coursework and cheating is rife. A-levels and university finals exams are a better proxy.

    GCSE’s are largely based on coursework and cheating is rife. A-levels and university finals exams are a better proxy.

    I made the same comment to Chisala’s original article. I call more PC propaganda here.

    Show me the objective g-loaded tests like SAT, IQ, ASVAB.

    Still, Frost went a long way toward a more convincing argument here. I still want to see the objective test data.

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    I do not think there are that many Nigerian origin (or other direct African origin) applicants to the U.S. armed forces although I have read of some people in the armed forces that are of Nigerian origin, so ASVAB data may be quite difficult to gather.

    Separating SAT scores by origin rather than just race would also be quite difficult to do accurately which may be why no one has done it yet.

    Chisala gave his opinion on the objections to his reference to the GSCE data in this comment on the original article here:

    http://www.unz.com/article/the-iq-gap-is-no-longer-a-black-and-white-issue/#comment-988418


    I do think that more data needs to be collected before reaching any definite conclusion but I doubt there is any deliberate propaganda at work.
    , @unpc downunder
    Coursework-driven assessment also tends to favour girls at the expense of boys. I remember when continuous coursework (known in Australia and New Zealand as internal assessment) came in the late 1980s. The headmasters of boy's secondary schools opposed it on the grounds that boys tend to deal with exam stress better than girls and have a lower boredom tolerance.

    In private schools in Australia and New Zealand an increasing number of students are doing Cambridge International Exams rather than continuous coursework qualifications.

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  • @FirstPerson
    I am not under the impression that Intel Science Talent Search semifinalist recognition is a more objective measure at all and I did not bring it up to suggest that it is. But I do believe it is a more selective recognition or award than the National Merit Semifinalist list and that belief is based on the actual selectivity of the awards combined with the prestige of the competition for high achieving high school students. My point was that such a person who got Intel semifinalist recognition could still have skipped the PSAT if they felt they didn't need it as preparation for the SAT and that may be why there is no mention of Ekeh as either a national achievement or national merit semifinalist. In the case of the 15 year old who got a near perfect score on her SAT she might have skipped the PSAT as well since no mention is made of semifinalist or national achievement recognition for her either. I would not just assume that they took it without evidence and the fact they may not have, since it is not something nearly essential like the ACT or SAT is a relevant factor.

    It is not unreasonable to suggest that the majority of high-performing high school students do take the PSAT but I do not think one can simply ignore the fact that some may not take it.

    But as I said before the National Achievement list cannot be a good measure of how well Nigerians (relative to their population) are performing compared to American Blacks since some Nigerians just will not show up on the National Achievement list if they are on the National Merit semifinalist and finalist lists.

    I really don’t understand why you’re pursuing an argument about population genetics with a sample size of one.

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    What detailed arguments have I made about population genetics? I have mainly discussed the national merit scholarship issue and the historical claims made by Frost in his replies to comments on his article.
    , @FirstPerson
    Also, I do not think you understand what the thrust of my argument was. Candid_observer believed that national merit semifinalist data from Nigerians is the measure to use to determine whether Nigerians are performing at the same level as other groups that are performing well, yet there are even recent examples of high achieving Nigerian students covered in the media (there may be more that are not covered by the media) who may not have taken the PSAT.
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  • @candid_observer
    My analysis based on medical school cognitive test performance is of course not refined enough to come to any precise results regarding, say, Nigerians and Ghanans (?) from the UK. But the problem with your objection is that there's almost no way to make the numbers work so that Nigerians and Ghanans do as well as whites on this medical school test.

    There are about 180K Nigerians and 94K Ghanans in England, according to wikipedia. There are about 1.8M blacks in England. So between the two, they comprise about 15% of blacks in England. But they are, by your assumption, by a good measure the more able of the blacks in England. Yet only quite good students will be in any kind of position to be a medical student. So if they are by a good measure the better students among the blacks, then their numbers should dominate those of medical students -- probably in excess of half of them, under your assumptions.

    But then they pretty much must perform quite poorly compared to whites, because the average for black medical students can't be 1.14 SD below whites unless this dominant portion also performs poorly.

    You see, there really is no way these numbers can be disaggregated and be consistent with the idea that students of Nigerian or Ghanan ancestry perform nearly as well as whites.

    Comparing medical scores is unfair. Black medical students in Britain are able to benefit from racial discrimination and so have a lower hurdle to jump when entering medical school.

    It would be very surprising therefore if they did not have a lower score on that test.

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    • Replies: @candid_observer
    It is likewise true that blacks in the US have very aggressive Affirmative Action working in their favor, so that the comparison between the two groups on the basis of their performance on the medical school tests is pretty fair.

    Moreover, the number of blacks in England who take the medical school cognitive test seem to be in rough proportion to their numbers in the relevant cohort -- about 6%. (While the overall proportion of blacks in England is about 3.5%, they have about half again as many proportionately in the relevant young cohort as whites.)

    This means that comparing the relative scores of whites vs. blacks in England who do well on this metric is basically quite fair, especially when the absolute difference -- over 1 SD -- is so great. Minor adjustments due to relative representation are not going to have a significant impact on the implications of those starkly different numbers.

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  • @FirstPerson
    The problem bedeviling people wondering about neanderthal admixture being found among a few Nigerians is the poor lack of knowledge of the history of that region that some here seem to have. I can go into detail if needed but I will just state these five things.

    1. Most if not all Eurasians are understood to have some slight neanderthal DNA.
    2. Many Fulani are understood to have have slight Eurasian DNA.
    3. Some Hausa are understood to have slight Eurasian DNA. Significantly less than Fulani, but it is there.
    4. Historically the Yoruba kept some Hausa as slaves when the Oyo empire was thriving.
    5. Some Fulani and Yoruba intermarried after the Fulani took over the Yoruba city of Illorin in the 19th century.

    Fulani and Hausa are northern Nigerians and nobody has denied that they have some slight Eurasian DNA derived from interaction with North Africans, with Fulanis having the most (but certainly not as much as some peoples in the Horn of Africa in eastern Africa). Fulanis came to Nigeria in the 16th century and again in the 18th century so any slight Eurasian DNA that they contributed to any peoples to the south of them has nothing to do with "ancient Eurasian migration" but to recent intermarriage and assimilation.

    Hence a slight bit of neanderthal DNA in a few Yoruba would imply that at one point some Hausas, perhaps Hausa slaves, might have have intermarried into a Yoruba family in the recent past (in the area around Illorin especially) or it might mean that some Fulanis married into a Yoruba family in the recent past.

    Unless one can show that other Nigerians from the southern area of Nigeria have neanderthal DNA in areas where it would be improbable because these areas had no interactions with any of the aforementioned peoples from northern Nigeria that interacted with North Africans there is no real significance to some Eurasian DNA in a few Nigerians because the likelihood of such is already well known.

    However this comment thread was started not because of Fulani or Hausa who do not currently generally have notable educational achievement in or outside of Nigeria (mostly due to poverty and the resistance to embracing modernization and western education that many of them exhibit) but because of a southern Nigerian people called the Igbo who have no history of interaction with Fulanis and Hausas before the formation of Nigeria and who have never been shown to have any Eurasian DNA. Even the Yoruba have no Eurasian DNA except for those occasional cases where those Yoruba people have some Fulani or Hausa ancestry. Perhaps geneticists or genetics obsessed amateur anthropologists would do better to read more about the peoples they are speculating about in detail. If they do this they can avoid making the wrong assumption that some slight Eurasian DNA in (or derived from) some northern Nigerians who derived it from Northern Africans is evidence of ancient Eurasian admixture of Igbos or similar nonsense.

    On the "light skinned elites" claimed earlier. The Igbo have many dark brown skinned people among them just as they have some light brown skinned people among them and many that are in between dark brown and light brown. Harold Ekeh, or Emmanuel Ohuabunwa (another high achieving Nigerian student) or the famous writer Chimamanda Adichie - all of these people are dark skinned and Igbo and are intellectually gifted individuals. There are more like them and I have met such people personally.

    You are wrong to claim there’s no eurasian admixture in southern nigerians (and that horn africans are heavily eurasian, but that’s another topic), because it has been verified that faint Neanderthal admixture exists in most africans, primarily by way of interactions between the founder populations of black africans and non-black north africans in the sahara several thousand years ago.

    Since you bring up the Fulani and mixture in west africa, it’s worth touching on the idea that arabs/berbers and mixed populations in west africa are the ones who are responsible for the muslim states and such in the sahel. This is a very old idea, and I’ve come to realize has virtually no basis and functions basically as a kneejerk explanation people resort to when confronted with the reality of civilization in that region. When you really look at the nature of the mixed populations there, the Fulani and Tuareg (along with how the black populations are clearly homogenous by how dark they are, or how negroid looking many Tuareg are), the whole thing kind of falls apart. The Fulani and Tuareg have long been overwhelmingly nomads and the Fulani didn’t really make any attempts at state building until after the fall of Songhai. The Fulani, before this, were variously exploited by the settled african states. The Tuareg about 20 years ago numbered just over 1 million, and when you compare this to the Fulani, who number over 40 million today and are found in most countries in West Africa, it stands to reason they haven’t had a very extensive urban history. You could undoubtedly say the Tuareg have been highly economically influential throughout the region’s history (they still play a major role in the salt trade and founded Timbuktu), but they have not been state builders or rulers.

    So the idea the Igbo are mixed (despite having no identifiably non-african features aside from lighter skin color) and this accounts for their achievement is even more far-fetched.

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    "You are wrong to claim there’s no eurasian admixture in southern nigerians (and that horn africans are heavily eurasian, but that’s another topic), because it has been verified that faint Neanderthal admixture exists in most africans, primarily by way of interactions between the founder populations of black africans and non-black north africans in the sahara several thousand years ago."

    How can this have been verified for "most Africans" when detailed genetic studies have not even been carried out on most Africans? Are you sure about this?

    I did not claim that "horn Africans are heavily eurasian." I said the Fulani, even having some slight Eurasian admixture as they do, do not have as much as some peoples in the Horn of Africa.


    "Since you bring up the Fulani and mixture in west africa, it’s worth touching on the idea that arabs/berbers and mixed populations in west africa are the ones who are responsible for the muslim states and such in the sahel."

    I did not claim that Arabs or Berbers are responsible for those mulsim states. I have read about the actual history of that area in great detail long before this comment thread. But I see why you would bring this up for other people reading who may be less informed.

    "So the idea the Igbo are mixed (despite having no identifiably non-african features aside from lighter skin color) and this accounts for their achievement is even more far-fetched."

    There are lots of dark skinned Igbos and there are lighter skinned unmixed non-Igbos in other parts of Nigeria. Yes there are light skinned Igbos and Igbos probably have a greater proportion of them than some other peoples nearby (although other people like the Annang, Ibibio, and Ekoi also seem to have similar proportion whereas peoples outside of the more heavily forested areas of west Africa, in the savannah and desert areas often seem to have fewer light skinned people) but having variation in skin color (dark, light or in between) is nothing unique to the Igbo and visitors to Nigeria have noted such variation in skin color among Nigerians, as among black Africans generally, even before there was a country or colony called Nigeria.
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  • @Ron Unz

    My point was that such a person who got Intel semifinalist recognition could still have skipped the PSAT if they felt they didn’t need it as preparation for the SAT and that may be why there is no mention of Ekeh as either a national achievement or national merit semifinalist. In the case of the 15 year old who got a near perfect score on her SAT she might have skipped the PSAT as well since no mention is made of semifinalist or national achievement recognition for her either. I would not just assume that they took it without evidence and the fact they may not have, since it is not something nearly essential like the ACT or SAT is a relevant factor.
     
    Well, I'll admit I haven't been following this very long comment-thread, nor had I ever heard of the particular students you mentioned. But Googling their names quickly gave me more background information, providing a better sense of things.

    Although Harold Ekeh's 2014 SAT score of 2270 out of 2400 was certainly very good, it would apparently have only placed him at the 99% percentile, so it's not at all certain that he would have been a PSAT/NMS Semifinalist, which normally targets the 99.5% percentile. The ambiguity reflects the question of whether the listed percentiles refer to all students or just the college-bound students who take the SAT:

    https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/sat/sat-percentile-ranks-composite-crit-reading-math-writing-2014.pdf

    Meanwhile, the other student you mentioned, Saheela Ibraheem, did much better, apparently getting a 2340 on the SAT at age 15, which would comfortably put her at the 99+%, even when measured against the older students who normally take the SAT, so it seems quite likely she would have been an NMS Semifinalist. However, I think students usually take the PSAT/NMS test at age 16, so it's very possible that she just left school early for college, and didn't bother taking the test.

    All of this was based on five minutes of Googling, so please don't treat it as definitive.

    But I do understand and agree with your idea that it is not guaranteed that Ekeh would get National Merit semifinalist if we could extrapolate where he might place in the PSAT from his SAT score. It is just that at that top tier of students, the SAT scores may not correspond exactly with who got the higher PSAT scores as the examples from that Spokane Valley website show. I do think the fact that there is no mention of him being a National Achievement Scholar and no mention of him being a National Merit Commended Student may mean he simply did not take the PSAT, because even if he took it and did not qualify for National Merit semifinalist he might have been able to get on either of those two lists. I think that an example like his – where a student whose general academic performance is stellar but the person has no National Merit recognition, not even for the lists that have lower cutoff marks – means it might be wise not to ignore the likelihood that not every high achieving student may take the PSAT.

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  • @Qasim
    Obsolete, thin gruel that most modern scientists don’t use. And pray tell what are indigenous Australians?

    Notice I said 3-4 macro-races. The 4 is there for a reason, as Australoids are often classified as the fourth. Maybe you should read things more carefully before you start doing the lol thing.

    And calling something obsolete gruel doesn't magically make it so. And what modern scientists may or may not use just speaks to the ideological committments of modern scientists. This website recently published an article by Robert Trivers, the sections on Gould and Lewontin show perfect examples of ideology trumping a dispassionate search for the truth.

    Also, simply NOTING the diversity of skin color amongst sub-Saharan Africans is not the same as EXPLAINING said diversity, no matter how many fancy articles you site. It is true than the San have a yellowish complexion. Bantus (the group we are actually discussing), on the other hand, are generally exceedingly dark-skinned. When one sees an African-American with a lighter complexion, one naturally assumes partial European ancestry. So why is a similar thought process dismissed out of hand amongst Africans? Because the alleged admixture took place in prehistory? Again, the Razib Khan article states that Neanderthal DNA has been found amongst Nigerians. Eurasian admixure DID take place in that region of the world, the only question is whether this helps to explain Igbo intellectual achievement.

    And why is it that the pattern of light-skinned elites has manifested itself over and over throughout world history? South America, the Caribbean, the Middle East, India, and now Nigeria. Weird, no? Ideologically addled people such as yourself can write 20 posts and link to 50 articles all you want, the individual trees do not obscure the forest at all.

    So why is a similar thought process dismissed out of hand amongst Africans? Because the alleged admixture took place in prehistory?

    LOL! Hey Dawg, you just splintered the wood beams in your foundation. I know all you have is a hammer, but you aren’t supposed to use it on screws!

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  • @Ron Unz

    My point was that such a person who got Intel semifinalist recognition could still have skipped the PSAT if they felt they didn’t need it as preparation for the SAT and that may be why there is no mention of Ekeh as either a national achievement or national merit semifinalist. In the case of the 15 year old who got a near perfect score on her SAT she might have skipped the PSAT as well since no mention is made of semifinalist or national achievement recognition for her either. I would not just assume that they took it without evidence and the fact they may not have, since it is not something nearly essential like the ACT or SAT is a relevant factor.
     
    Well, I'll admit I haven't been following this very long comment-thread, nor had I ever heard of the particular students you mentioned. But Googling their names quickly gave me more background information, providing a better sense of things.

    Although Harold Ekeh's 2014 SAT score of 2270 out of 2400 was certainly very good, it would apparently have only placed him at the 99% percentile, so it's not at all certain that he would have been a PSAT/NMS Semifinalist, which normally targets the 99.5% percentile. The ambiguity reflects the question of whether the listed percentiles refer to all students or just the college-bound students who take the SAT:

    https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/sat/sat-percentile-ranks-composite-crit-reading-math-writing-2014.pdf

    Meanwhile, the other student you mentioned, Saheela Ibraheem, did much better, apparently getting a 2340 on the SAT at age 15, which would comfortably put her at the 99+%, even when measured against the older students who normally take the SAT, so it seems quite likely she would have been an NMS Semifinalist. However, I think students usually take the PSAT/NMS test at age 16, so it's very possible that she just left school early for college, and didn't bother taking the test.

    All of this was based on five minutes of Googling, so please don't treat it as definitive.

    That is not unreasonable. However I already know of students who were National Merit Semifinalists but got lower scores in the SAT than Ekeh did.

    Here is one:

    “Kathryn Knight – North Central High School
    Kathryn Knight has a 4.0 grade average and a total score of 2130 on the SAT. She has taken every AP class offered, earning straight A’s in three AP history courses and scores of 5 on two AP history tests. She is a National Merit Semi-Finalist and a Distinguished AP Scholar.”

    http://www.spokanevalleyonline.com/articles_svnews/2013/042613_2013%20Spokane%20Scholars%20Foundation%20Award%20recipients%20named.html

    But here is someone with a higher SAT score who did not make the semifinalist list and instead made the “commended student” list (which is not as prestigious, meaning this person did not do as well on their PSAT as the person above):

    “Natalie Pilgeram has a 4.0 grade average, a total score of 2350 on the SAT and a 5 on the U.S. History subject test. She has completed four AP and two honors courses in the social sciences with straight A grades and has been designated as an AP Scholar and a National Merit Commended Student.”

    I do not think there is a one-to-one correspondence between SAT score and being a National Merit semi-finalist although I believe there would be a very strong correlation between a high SAT score and being a National Merit semifinalist. I just do not believe that we can say for certain that if for example one person got a 2300 on their SAT and another person got a 2100 that the person with the 2300 must have done better on the PSAT. That might be jumping to conclusions. I came across some other examples earlier of people who got a lower SAT score than Ekeh but were National Merit semifinalists and I could look for them again if you need more evidence.

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  • The problem bedeviling people wondering about neanderthal admixture being found among a few Nigerians is the poor lack of knowledge of the history of that region that some here seem to have. I can go into detail if needed but I will just state these five things.

    1. Most if not all Eurasians are understood to have some slight neanderthal DNA.
    2. Many Fulani are understood to have have slight Eurasian DNA.
    3. Some Hausa are understood to have slight Eurasian DNA. Significantly less than Fulani, but it is there.
    4. Historically the Yoruba kept some Hausa as slaves when the Oyo empire was thriving.
    5. Some Fulani and Yoruba intermarried after the Fulani took over the Yoruba city of Illorin in the 19th century.

    Fulani and Hausa are northern Nigerians and nobody has denied that they have some slight Eurasian DNA derived from interaction with North Africans, with Fulanis having the most (but certainly not as much as some peoples in the Horn of Africa in eastern Africa). Fulanis came to Nigeria in the 16th century and again in the 18th century so any slight Eurasian DNA that they contributed to any peoples to the south of them has nothing to do with “ancient Eurasian migration” but to recent intermarriage and assimilation.

    Hence a slight bit of neanderthal DNA in a few Yoruba would imply that at one point some Hausas, perhaps Hausa slaves, might have have intermarried into a Yoruba family in the recent past (in the area around Illorin especially) or it might mean that some Fulanis married into a Yoruba family in the recent past.

    Unless one can show that other Nigerians from the southern area of Nigeria have neanderthal DNA in areas where it would be improbable because these areas had no interactions with any of the aforementioned peoples from northern Nigeria that interacted with North Africans there is no real significance to some Eurasian DNA in a few Nigerians because the likelihood of such is already well known.

    However this comment thread was started not because of Fulani or Hausa who do not currently generally have notable educational achievement in or outside of Nigeria (mostly due to poverty and the resistance to embracing modernization and western education that many of them exhibit) but because of a southern Nigerian people called the Igbo who have no history of interaction with Fulanis and Hausas before the formation of Nigeria and who have never been shown to have any Eurasian DNA. Even the Yoruba have no Eurasian DNA except for those occasional cases where those Yoruba people have some Fulani or Hausa ancestry. Perhaps geneticists or genetics obsessed amateur anthropologists would do better to read more about the peoples they are speculating about in detail. If they do this they can avoid making the wrong assumption that some slight Eurasian DNA in (or derived from) some northern Nigerians who derived it from Northern Africans is evidence of ancient Eurasian admixture of Igbos or similar nonsense.

    On the “light skinned elites” claimed earlier. The Igbo have many dark brown skinned people among them just as they have some light brown skinned people among them and many that are in between dark brown and light brown. Harold Ekeh, or Emmanuel Ohuabunwa (another high achieving Nigerian student) or the famous writer Chimamanda Adichie – all of these people are dark skinned and Igbo and are intellectually gifted individuals. There are more like them and I have met such people personally.

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    • Replies: @Dipwill
    You are wrong to claim there's no eurasian admixture in southern nigerians (and that horn africans are heavily eurasian, but that's another topic), because it has been verified that faint Neanderthal admixture exists in most africans, primarily by way of interactions between the founder populations of black africans and non-black north africans in the sahara several thousand years ago.

    Since you bring up the Fulani and mixture in west africa, it's worth touching on the idea that arabs/berbers and mixed populations in west africa are the ones who are responsible for the muslim states and such in the sahel. This is a very old idea, and I've come to realize has virtually no basis and functions basically as a kneejerk explanation people resort to when confronted with the reality of civilization in that region. When you really look at the nature of the mixed populations there, the Fulani and Tuareg (along with how the black populations are clearly homogenous by how dark they are, or how negroid looking many Tuareg are), the whole thing kind of falls apart. The Fulani and Tuareg have long been overwhelmingly nomads and the Fulani didn't really make any attempts at state building until after the fall of Songhai. The Fulani, before this, were variously exploited by the settled african states. The Tuareg about 20 years ago numbered just over 1 million, and when you compare this to the Fulani, who number over 40 million today and are found in most countries in West Africa, it stands to reason they haven't had a very extensive urban history. You could undoubtedly say the Tuareg have been highly economically influential throughout the region's history (they still play a major role in the salt trade and founded Timbuktu), but they have not been state builders or rulers.

    So the idea the Igbo are mixed (despite having no identifiably non-african features aside from lighter skin color) and this accounts for their achievement is even more far-fetched.

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  • @FirstPerson
    I am not under the impression that Intel Science Talent Search semifinalist recognition is a more objective measure at all and I did not bring it up to suggest that it is. But I do believe it is a more selective recognition or award than the National Merit Semifinalist list and that belief is based on the actual selectivity of the awards combined with the prestige of the competition for high achieving high school students. My point was that such a person who got Intel semifinalist recognition could still have skipped the PSAT if they felt they didn't need it as preparation for the SAT and that may be why there is no mention of Ekeh as either a national achievement or national merit semifinalist. In the case of the 15 year old who got a near perfect score on her SAT she might have skipped the PSAT as well since no mention is made of semifinalist or national achievement recognition for her either. I would not just assume that they took it without evidence and the fact they may not have, since it is not something nearly essential like the ACT or SAT is a relevant factor.

    It is not unreasonable to suggest that the majority of high-performing high school students do take the PSAT but I do not think one can simply ignore the fact that some may not take it.

    But as I said before the National Achievement list cannot be a good measure of how well Nigerians (relative to their population) are performing compared to American Blacks since some Nigerians just will not show up on the National Achievement list if they are on the National Merit semifinalist and finalist lists.

    My point was that such a person who got Intel semifinalist recognition could still have skipped the PSAT if they felt they didn’t need it as preparation for the SAT and that may be why there is no mention of Ekeh as either a national achievement or national merit semifinalist. In the case of the 15 year old who got a near perfect score on her SAT she might have skipped the PSAT as well since no mention is made of semifinalist or national achievement recognition for her either. I would not just assume that they took it without evidence and the fact they may not have, since it is not something nearly essential like the ACT or SAT is a relevant factor.

    Well, I’ll admit I haven’t been following this very long comment-thread, nor had I ever heard of the particular students you mentioned. But Googling their names quickly gave me more background information, providing a better sense of things.

    Although Harold Ekeh’s 2014 SAT score of 2270 out of 2400 was certainly very good, it would apparently have only placed him at the 99% percentile, so it’s not at all certain that he would have been a PSAT/NMS Semifinalist, which normally targets the 99.5% percentile. The ambiguity reflects the question of whether the listed percentiles refer to all students or just the college-bound students who take the SAT:

    https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/sat/sat-percentile-ranks-composite-crit-reading-math-writing-2014.pdf

    Meanwhile, the other student you mentioned, Saheela Ibraheem, did much better, apparently getting a 2340 on the SAT at age 15, which would comfortably put her at the 99+%, even when measured against the older students who normally take the SAT, so it seems quite likely she would have been an NMS Semifinalist. However, I think students usually take the PSAT/NMS test at age 16, so it’s very possible that she just left school early for college, and didn’t bother taking the test.

    All of this was based on five minutes of Googling, so please don’t treat it as definitive.

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    That is not unreasonable. However I already know of students who were National Merit Semifinalists but got lower scores in the SAT than Ekeh did.

    Here is one:

    "Kathryn Knight – North Central High School
    Kathryn Knight has a 4.0 grade average and a total score of 2130 on the SAT. She has taken every AP class offered, earning straight A’s in three AP history courses and scores of 5 on two AP history tests. She is a National Merit Semi-Finalist and a Distinguished AP Scholar."

    http://www.spokanevalleyonline.com/articles_svnews/2013/042613_2013%20Spokane%20Scholars%20Foundation%20Award%20recipients%20named.html

    But here is someone with a higher SAT score who did not make the semifinalist list and instead made the "commended student" list (which is not as prestigious, meaning this person did not do as well on their PSAT as the person above):

    "Natalie Pilgeram has a 4.0 grade average, a total score of 2350 on the SAT and a 5 on the U.S. History subject test. She has completed four AP and two honors courses in the social sciences with straight A grades and has been designated as an AP Scholar and a National Merit Commended Student."

    I do not think there is a one-to-one correspondence between SAT score and being a National Merit semi-finalist although I believe there would be a very strong correlation between a high SAT score and being a National Merit semifinalist. I just do not believe that we can say for certain that if for example one person got a 2300 on their SAT and another person got a 2100 that the person with the 2300 must have done better on the PSAT. That might be jumping to conclusions. I came across some other examples earlier of people who got a lower SAT score than Ekeh but were National Merit semifinalists and I could look for them again if you need more evidence.
    , @FirstPerson
    But I do understand and agree with your idea that it is not guaranteed that Ekeh would get National Merit semifinalist if we could extrapolate where he might place in the PSAT from his SAT score. It is just that at that top tier of students, the SAT scores may not correspond exactly with who got the higher PSAT scores as the examples from that Spokane Valley website show. I do think the fact that there is no mention of him being a National Achievement Scholar and no mention of him being a National Merit Commended Student may mean he simply did not take the PSAT, because even if he took it and did not qualify for National Merit semifinalist he might have been able to get on either of those two lists. I think that an example like his - where a student whose general academic performance is stellar but the person has no National Merit recognition, not even for the lists that have lower cutoff marks - means it might be wise not to ignore the likelihood that not every high achieving student may take the PSAT.
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  • “In doing so, he comes closer to the HBD position than he may realize.”

    Lollocaust.

    A quick Google search for “Igbo People” reveals that they tend to have a lighter complexion.

    One of the search suggestions was actually “Igbo People Light Skinned”

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  • The presence of Neanderthal DNA doesn’t imply either that the neanderthal DNA itself was directly responsible for lighter skin or intelligence only that it implies there might have been Eurasian admixture at some point.

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  • @Qasim
    Obsolete, thin gruel that most modern scientists don’t use. And pray tell what are indigenous Australians?

    Notice I said 3-4 macro-races. The 4 is there for a reason, as Australoids are often classified as the fourth. Maybe you should read things more carefully before you start doing the lol thing.

    And calling something obsolete gruel doesn't magically make it so. And what modern scientists may or may not use just speaks to the ideological committments of modern scientists. This website recently published an article by Robert Trivers, the sections on Gould and Lewontin show perfect examples of ideology trumping a dispassionate search for the truth.

    Also, simply NOTING the diversity of skin color amongst sub-Saharan Africans is not the same as EXPLAINING said diversity, no matter how many fancy articles you site. It is true than the San have a yellowish complexion. Bantus (the group we are actually discussing), on the other hand, are generally exceedingly dark-skinned. When one sees an African-American with a lighter complexion, one naturally assumes partial European ancestry. So why is a similar thought process dismissed out of hand amongst Africans? Because the alleged admixture took place in prehistory? Again, the Razib Khan article states that Neanderthal DNA has been found amongst Nigerians. Eurasian admixure DID take place in that region of the world, the only question is whether this helps to explain Igbo intellectual achievement.

    And why is it that the pattern of light-skinned elites has manifested itself over and over throughout world history? South America, the Caribbean, the Middle East, India, and now Nigeria. Weird, no? Ideologically addled people such as yourself can write 20 posts and link to 50 articles all you want, the individual trees do not obscure the forest at all.

    “Again, the Razib Khan article states that Neanderthal DNA has been found amongst Nigerians. Eurasian admixure DID take place in that region of the world, the only question is whether this helps to explain Igbo intellectual achievement.”

    It didn’t. The idea Neanderthals contributed anything to the intelligence of Eurasians has little basis. Neanderthal and cro-magnon brain size was identical, and larger brain size was typical throughout the world in the past, including Africa and Australia.

    Neanderthal admixture is not found only in Nigerians, it is found in most africans, and originated from about several thousand years with breeding between africans and north africans, not neanderthals themselves, who died out even longer ago.

    There are other african peoples who are lighter than the Igbo who were nonetheless much more primitive than the rest of Africa, like the pygmies, khoisan, sandawe, hadza and some other extinct groups, who were all mostly stone-age hunter-gatherers.

    Stop asking the question (and making digs like “Ideologically addled people such as yourself” when you argue things like this), because it’s based heavily on the finding neanderthal brain size was larger than the average for MODERN humans, not humans around the time neanderthals existed.

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  • @Ron Unz

    Harold Ekeh, a Nigerian student who performed very well academically and was an Intel Talent Search semifinalist may not even have taken the PSAT. Nor is there any mention of whether Saheela Ibraheem took the PSAT and got national achievement or national merit recognition. She might have skipped it entirely.
     
    Well, my strong impression is that the overwhelming majority of high-performing H.S. students take the PSAT for the prestige and for very lucrative scholarship opportunities it offers, and I can't see why Nigerian-American students would not do so. One problem with using the Intel, is that it's a substantially *subjective* competition, hence much less reliable as a metric than an objectively scored test. Similar problems apply with using Presidential Scholarships or Ivy League admissions. The PSAT is also a better measure than the very similar SAT, since the latter can be taken numerous times by sufficiently determined students, with only their highest scores being reported.

    I am not under the impression that Intel Science Talent Search semifinalist recognition is a more objective measure at all and I did not bring it up to suggest that it is. But I do believe it is a more selective recognition or award than the National Merit Semifinalist list and that belief is based on the actual selectivity of the awards combined with the prestige of the competition for high achieving high school students. My point was that such a person who got Intel semifinalist recognition could still have skipped the PSAT if they felt they didn’t need it as preparation for the SAT and that may be why there is no mention of Ekeh as either a national achievement or national merit semifinalist. In the case of the 15 year old who got a near perfect score on her SAT she might have skipped the PSAT as well since no mention is made of semifinalist or national achievement recognition for her either. I would not just assume that they took it without evidence and the fact they may not have, since it is not something nearly essential like the ACT or SAT is a relevant factor.

    It is not unreasonable to suggest that the majority of high-performing high school students do take the PSAT but I do not think one can simply ignore the fact that some may not take it.

    But as I said before the National Achievement list cannot be a good measure of how well Nigerians (relative to their population) are performing compared to American Blacks since some Nigerians just will not show up on the National Achievement list if they are on the National Merit semifinalist and finalist lists.

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    • Replies: @Ron Unz

    My point was that such a person who got Intel semifinalist recognition could still have skipped the PSAT if they felt they didn’t need it as preparation for the SAT and that may be why there is no mention of Ekeh as either a national achievement or national merit semifinalist. In the case of the 15 year old who got a near perfect score on her SAT she might have skipped the PSAT as well since no mention is made of semifinalist or national achievement recognition for her either. I would not just assume that they took it without evidence and the fact they may not have, since it is not something nearly essential like the ACT or SAT is a relevant factor.
     
    Well, I'll admit I haven't been following this very long comment-thread, nor had I ever heard of the particular students you mentioned. But Googling their names quickly gave me more background information, providing a better sense of things.

    Although Harold Ekeh's 2014 SAT score of 2270 out of 2400 was certainly very good, it would apparently have only placed him at the 99% percentile, so it's not at all certain that he would have been a PSAT/NMS Semifinalist, which normally targets the 99.5% percentile. The ambiguity reflects the question of whether the listed percentiles refer to all students or just the college-bound students who take the SAT:

    https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/sat/sat-percentile-ranks-composite-crit-reading-math-writing-2014.pdf

    Meanwhile, the other student you mentioned, Saheela Ibraheem, did much better, apparently getting a 2340 on the SAT at age 15, which would comfortably put her at the 99+%, even when measured against the older students who normally take the SAT, so it seems quite likely she would have been an NMS Semifinalist. However, I think students usually take the PSAT/NMS test at age 16, so it's very possible that she just left school early for college, and didn't bother taking the test.

    All of this was based on five minutes of Googling, so please don't treat it as definitive.
    , @Deduction
    I really don't understand why you're pursuing an argument about population genetics with a sample size of one.
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  • @candid_observer
    OK, so Minnesota probably wasn't the best place to look for Nigerians. Houston seems to be a much better place, with 150,000 Nigerians according to Wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Houston#Nigerians

    Houston has a population of about 2 million, so that would be about 7% Nigerian.

    But are there any National Merit Semifinalists among those from Houston?

    http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/ranch/news/semifinalists-named-in-the-national-merit-scholarship-program/article_2982874d-47c3-5677-a9ef-bdfbe904c069.html

    I won't pretend to know for sure which of these names might be Nigerian, but I don't see many that seem to be obvious candidates. Maybe someone with that knowledge can spot some?

    None appear to be Nigerian, so much for that.

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  • @candid_observer
    My analysis based on medical school cognitive test performance is of course not refined enough to come to any precise results regarding, say, Nigerians and Ghanans (?) from the UK. But the problem with your objection is that there's almost no way to make the numbers work so that Nigerians and Ghanans do as well as whites on this medical school test.

    There are about 180K Nigerians and 94K Ghanans in England, according to wikipedia. There are about 1.8M blacks in England. So between the two, they comprise about 15% of blacks in England. But they are, by your assumption, by a good measure the more able of the blacks in England. Yet only quite good students will be in any kind of position to be a medical student. So if they are by a good measure the better students among the blacks, then their numbers should dominate those of medical students -- probably in excess of half of them, under your assumptions.

    But then they pretty much must perform quite poorly compared to whites, because the average for black medical students can't be 1.14 SD below whites unless this dominant portion also performs poorly.

    You see, there really is no way these numbers can be disaggregated and be consistent with the idea that students of Nigerian or Ghanan ancestry perform nearly as well as whites.

    “So between the two, they comprise about 15% of blacks in England. But they are, by your assumption, by a good measure the more able of the blacks in England. Yet only quite good students will be in any kind of position to be a medical student. So if they are by a good measure the better students among the blacks, then their numbers should dominate those of medical students — probably in excess of half of them, under your assumptions.”

    This does not follow from my assumptions. I will try to be a bit clearer since I did not get my point across. I certainly do not believe that the Nigerians, Ghanaians, some Kenyans, etc. would constitute up to half of the medical students that are black, let alone be in excess of half. I think that if anything groups from African countries that do not have the kind of trend of immigrants performing well that these groups do have and who are Africans coming from economically and educationally less progressive countries in Africa, plus the Afro-Caribbean blacks that generally do not actually have the same statistics as immigrants from Nigeria, Ghana, etc. would constitute the majority. That that the Nigerians, Ghanaians, etc. would not constitute half or the majority but instead be outnumbered by other groups was the entire idea of my comment (though I did not assume or invent what fraction of the medical students they would constitute, as you did). If you read it again I think you will see that.

    I also do not see the pertinence of your claim that “only quite good students will be in any kind of position to be a medical student” in the context of what I stated. My point is that some black students from different backgrounds will likely be better than others based on other statistics and observed trends for those groups. The UK Clinical Aptitude Test can be taken regardless of whether you are actually a “quite good” student or if you just think that you are quite good. Some black students (Nigerians, Ghanaians, Kenyans, etc.) may be more “quite good” than other black students of different backgrounds yet all, whether mediocre, good, quite good or more than quite good will be allowed to take the test.

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  • @Qasim
    Obsolete, thin gruel that most modern scientists don’t use. And pray tell what are indigenous Australians?

    Notice I said 3-4 macro-races. The 4 is there for a reason, as Australoids are often classified as the fourth. Maybe you should read things more carefully before you start doing the lol thing.

    And calling something obsolete gruel doesn't magically make it so. And what modern scientists may or may not use just speaks to the ideological committments of modern scientists. This website recently published an article by Robert Trivers, the sections on Gould and Lewontin show perfect examples of ideology trumping a dispassionate search for the truth.

    Also, simply NOTING the diversity of skin color amongst sub-Saharan Africans is not the same as EXPLAINING said diversity, no matter how many fancy articles you site. It is true than the San have a yellowish complexion. Bantus (the group we are actually discussing), on the other hand, are generally exceedingly dark-skinned. When one sees an African-American with a lighter complexion, one naturally assumes partial European ancestry. So why is a similar thought process dismissed out of hand amongst Africans? Because the alleged admixture took place in prehistory? Again, the Razib Khan article states that Neanderthal DNA has been found amongst Nigerians. Eurasian admixure DID take place in that region of the world, the only question is whether this helps to explain Igbo intellectual achievement.

    And why is it that the pattern of light-skinned elites has manifested itself over and over throughout world history? South America, the Caribbean, the Middle East, India, and now Nigeria. Weird, no? Ideologically addled people such as yourself can write 20 posts and link to 50 articles all you want, the individual trees do not obscure the forest at all.

    Notice I said 3-4 macro-races. The 4 is there for a reason, as Australoids are often classified as the fourth. Maybe you should read things more carefully before you start doing the lol thing.

    Maybe you should be more careful about what you right, for you yourself specifically asserted three races- Quote: “but the macro-division of Mongoloid/Caucasoid/Negroid still stands.” And up above you say nothing about Australians until I mentioned them, nor did you include Australians in your 3-part “macro” races division.

    .
    his website recently published an article by Robert Trivers, the sections on Gould and Lewontin show perfect examples of ideology trumping a dispassionate search for the truth.
    Curiously enough, you can proffer nothing specific to support your claims. How exactly does Lewontin support you for example? Why are specifics are missing in your alleged “dispassionate search for the truth?”

    .
    Also, simply NOTING the diversity of skin color amongst sub-Saharan Africans is not the same as EXPLAINING said diversity, no matter how many fancy articles you site.
    Actually the citation already explains it. Let’s look at an excerpt of what scholar Relethford says above again- there is nothing “fancy” about it:

    “Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits
    have found higher levels of within-population diversity
    in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions…
    For both measures, the average level of within-population
    diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other
    geographic regions. This difference persists even after
    adjusting for a correlation between within-population
    diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected
    by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same
    pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits.”

    –Relethford JH.. 2001. Human skin color diversity is
    highest in sub-Saharan African populations.
    Hum Biol. 2001 Oct;73(5):629-36.

    As can be seen Relethford references (a) the already greater diversity of sub-Saharan Africans, which takes in genetic diversity and craniometric traits- nothing surprising given the evolution of anatomically modern humans in Africa. The origin point has greater diversity- everything else is a SUBSET of that diversity. Skin color is simply consistent with said pattern as Relethford shows. (b) Natural selection. This is basic Anthropology 101- nothing “fancy” about it.

    .
    It is true than the San have a yellowish complexion. Bantus (the group we are actually discussing), on the other hand, are generally exceedingly dark-skinned. When one sees an African-American with a lighter complexion, one naturally assumes partial European ancestry. So why is a similar thought process dismissed out of hand amongst Africans.
    You need to go through your thought process logically, for your notion that lighter skin in Africa must be due to some sort of “race mix” is contradicted by your own example. You mention the San, and admit they have pale skin, but don’t seem to realize that your own statement contradicts your thought process. How did the San get yellow skin? Ancient Chinese colonists to the Kalahari or the Cape? Where is the evidence of these mysterious “Asiatic race mixers”? You don’t have any.

    .
    Because the alleged admixture took place in prehistory?
    What admixture in pre-history gave the San yellow skin? You make all these sweeping pronouncements, but can produce nothing credible to back them up.

    .
    Neanderthal DNA has been found amongst Nigerians.
    But even if this is so, how did said Neanderthal DNA produce light skin in Nigerians? Once again, you merely assert that it is so, without producing a shred of credible evidence.

    .
    Eurasian admixure DID take place in that region of the world, the only question is whether this helps to explain Igbo intellectual achievement.
    But yet again, you only offer your own dubious opinion, without the slightest bit of credible evidence. Precisely when and how was said admixture and how did it affect Igbo intellectual achievement? You made the claim, but you have precious little to support it. When are you going to produce something credible?

    .
    And why is it that the pattern of light-skinned elites has manifested itself over and over throughout world history? South America, the Caribbean, the Middle East, India, and now Nigeria. Weird, no?
    No actually what’s weird is your confused, laughable logic. The Igbo were no “light-skinned elite.” In fact as shown above they did not match the power and sophistication of other more powerful empires and cultures around. And none of these other cultures were ruled by any “light skinned elite.” Since when are the rulers of Benin for example a “light skinned” elite?

    .
    Ideologically addled people such as yourself can write 20 posts and link to 50 articles all you want, the individual trees do not obscure the forest at all.
    The only “addled” person is you, and I link to credible articles that debunk the rubbish you are pushing. You seem to be scared of actual credible scholarship- which is why you continuously try to avoid it. You and other intellectual lightweights can “hide” that scholarship, but it still does not change the fact that your claims are both dubious and false.

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    • Replies: @Qasim
    Maybe you should be more careful about what you right,

    Fair point. After all, one can never be too careful in one's righting. or reeding for that matter.

    I think a main problem we are having is that my comments are not addressed to people like you. If I was a masochist who wanted to try to convert the un-convertible, I would post on salon or huffingtonpost. But this is unz, where Steven Sailer lives, I assume a basic familiarity (and affinity) with HBD. Furthermore, this is a message board where brevity is important, and based on the general level of commenting on this site, I am assuming people are smart enough to get the basic gist of my argument without having to hold their hand.

    Peter Frost was the one who first said "You are assuming 3-4 races". I immediately knew he was referring to the Rushton type classification, which is Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and Australoid. But for whatever reason, Australoids are often omitted for the sake of brevity, and since we are discussing Eurasian DNA in Africa, referring to Australoids didn't seem important. Again, this is something that doesn't need to be obsessed over for people who are familiar with the argument and can make a simple mental leap.

    Curiously enough, you can proffer nothing specific to support your claims. How exactly does Lewontin support you for example?

    Again, I am not here to hold your hand and patiently explain everything to you. I assume that most of the people who read this site are already well aware of who Richard Lewontin is, how his Marxism colored his science, Lewontin's fallacy etc.

    As can be seen Relethford references (a) the already greater diversity of sub-Saharan Africans, which takes in genetic diversity and craniometric traits- nothing surprising given the evolution of anatomically modern humans in Africa. The origin point has greater diversity- everything else is a SUBSET of that diversity. Skin color is simply consistent with said pattern as Relethford shows. (b) Natural selection. This is basic Anthropology 101- nothing “fancy” about it.

    Again, you miss the point. And how many times are you going to cite your beloved Relethford?

    Let me try to make this clearer for you. Suppose there was an article that stated a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. All that would mean is that there is a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. Whether that diversity was something that was present 1500 years ago in the Arabian peninsula or whether the color diversity is a result of mating with and Arabizing people like the Persians and the Sudanese is not something that can be determined by the study.

    So is the diversity of skin colors among Bantus something intrinsic to Bantus or is it the result of admixture with different ethnicities who had different skin colors? Your beloved does not say, and that is why your endless citations of him are pointless.

    And this is a quote from the Razib Khan article recently posted on this site that seems germane..

    But the masking of Eurasian ancestry also highlighted something important: the genetic variation across African populations once you remove Eurasian ancestry is not that high.

    And as far as it being "basic Anthropology 101", does this lecture come before or after the lecture on how race is a completely social construct? I am sure "Gender is a social construct" is basic Womyn's Studies 101, but who cares?

    You need to go through your thought process logically, for your notion that lighter skin in Africa must be due to some sort of “race mix” is contradicted by your own example. You mention the San, and admit they have pale skin, but don’t seem to realize that your own statement contradicts your thought process. How did the San get yellow skin? Ancient Chinese colonists to the Kalahari or the Cape? Where is the evidence of these mysterious “Asiatic race mixers”? You don’t have any.

    Again, my only "mistake" was assuming you could make the sort of mental leaps that people with an IQ of say 120 make automatically.

    I DID make it clear we were talking not about the San, who have a nearly universal yellowish complexion and are often classified as another race (BUT I THOUGHT YOU SAID THERE WERE 4!!! When discussing Africa, Bantus, San, and Pygmies are often classified as 3 separate races (read syon's comment #130 if you are still confused). Anyway, there is no reason to think that the San's generally uniform skin complexion is the result of any race mixing. Now it is true I said light skin in African Americans is immediately thought to be the result of white admixture, so why not the same in Africans. But I assumed you knew we were still talking about Bantus (as I said Bantus are the group we are actually discussing). But for you, I will restate is as: When we see African Americans (who are overwhelmingly of Bantu origin) with light skin, we assume European admixture. So why is that when we see BANTU Africans (whose skin is generally exceedingly dark), that possibility is rejected out of hand? Because the alleged mixture took place in prehistory?

    So again, I do not assume EVERY African group has generally very dark skin. Not the San. Not the Boers. Not the people in the Maghreb. The Bantus only. Bantus Bantus Bantus.

    But even if this is so, how did said Neanderthal DNA produce light skin in Nigerians?

    Again, a small mental leap you were not able to make. So this one time I will spoonfeed you. Neanderthals lived in Eurasia. Neanderthals did not live in Africa. Neanderthals mated with Homo Sapiens. Neanderthal DNA is therefore present in modern humans. If a group of humans show Neanderthal DNA, then this means they had ancestors in Eurasia, since that is where Neanderthals and modern humans mated. If Africans are found to have Neanderthal DNA, then this means some of their ancestors were at one point in Eurasia.

    Now whether Neanderthals had the skin color of Taylor Swift or Lawrence Taylor is not relevant to the current argument. (Dipwill, it is also not relevant whether the Neanderthal brain was the size of a walnut or a watermelon.) The point of me bringing up the presence of Neanderthal DNA in Nigerians is ONLY that it is proof of partial Eurasian ancestry.

    What I do assume is that Eurasians likely had lighter skin than Bantus. So any offspring between Eurasians and Bantus would likely have lighter skin than Bantus without Eurasian admixture. Allow me to cite a recent credible article on Kanye West, a dark-skinned black man who recently had a daughter with a white woman. Now cutting edge spectral technology has given us tantalizing clues that this baby North has a complexion lighter than that of her black father yet darker than her white mother!! And this study helped me conclude that Africans with Eurasian admixture may be more light skinned.

    No actually what’s weird is your confused, laughable logic. The Igbo were no “light-skinned elite.”

    The Igbo are certainly an elite today. That IS the point of the Frost article, after all. And they are more light-skinned than other Nigerian tribes. And notice how you bring up Benin and totally ignore the ubiquitous and indisputable pattern of light-skinned elites seen throughout world history.

    I link to credible articles that debunk the rubbish you are pushing. You seem to be scared of actual credible scholarship- which is why you continuously try to avoid it. You and other intellectual lightweights

    You endlessly link to articles in the vain hopes that breadth of knowledge can substitute for depth of intellect and insight. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. I am not scared of your "credible" scholarship (notice how you use the word credible as this weird mantra, probably because you know someone else could as easily link to scholarly articles that conclude the exact opposite of what your articles say, but of course those articles would be non-credible).
    I just think looking at 50 leaves under an electron microscope is not the best way to comprehend the forest. Also, as we went over with the Relethford thing, what an article says and the ideologically addled conclusions you reach from them are two vastly different things. And thirdly, considering many of the researchers themselves share your ideological commitments, the fact that a scholar says something doesn't mean much on its own (see Lewontin, Gould).

    I know you will never believe me, but you are not even half as smart as you think, and all this lightweight stuff and lols are just projection. So be it. I leave you to snark away and write 20 more posts at your leisure.

    A couple of last thoughts. The amount of pompous bullshittery on this comment thread is a sight to behold. Look at FirstPerson's comment #176.

    The problem bedeviling people wondering about neanderthal admixture being found among a few Nigerians is the poor lack of knowledge of the history of that region that some here seem to have. I can go into detail if needed

    Fulanis came to Nigeria in the 16th century and again in the 18th century so any slight Eurasian DNA that they contributed to any peoples to the south of them has nothing to do with “ancient Eurasian migration” but to recent intermarriage and assimilation.

    Perhaps geneticists or genetics obsessed amateur anthropologists would do better to read more about the peoples they are speculating about in detail. If they do this they can avoid making the wrong assumption that some slight Eurasian DNA in (or derived from) some northern Nigerians who derived it from Northern Africans is evidence of ancient Eurasian admixture of Igbos or similar nonsense.


    Now let's quote some snippets from the aforementioned Razib Khan article posted on this site in December...

    What is more interesting is that they observed Eurasian admixture within Yoruba people. This admixture has been suggested by others, as the Yoruba have traces of Neandertal ancestry. This group dates the admixture back to nearly 10,000 years ago, so it as likely associated with goings on that were trans-Saharan. If that is the case these were almost certain quasi-Eurasian hunter-gatherers, and their ancestry might have been diminished in current North African groups subject to waves of farmers issuing from the east during the Neolithic. But there is also admixture with Eurasians further east in Uganda among Bantu groups.

    Though the Eurasian admixture story among these populations is fascinating, there is also nuance in the input of hunter-gatherer ancestry within West African and Bantu populations. First, I suspect that these estimates are low bounds, because they don’t have exact reference populations. Some of the hunter-gatherers mixed into the Igbo and Bantu groups may have been more like agriculturalists than the extant hunter-gatherer groups within Africa.

    The only complicating issue is that of Eurasian admixture; it seems likely that for very old admixture events we’re seeing underestimates, or they aren’t picked up. In other words, the “reference” Sub-Saharan Africans themselves are compounds of people who remained within Africa, and Out of Africa.


    So, other than the fact that you were off on the time of Neanderthal admixture by ohhh about 9500 years and incorrectly limited said mixture to Northern Nigerians everything you said was totally correct! Way to clear things up!!

    Again, this combination of absolute certitude and absolute talking out of one's arse is par for the course for people who can't bear to think that race and intelligence may be strongly linked.

    And there have been multiple comments insisting that other than a lighter skin color, the Igbo have no sign of Eurasian admixture. Do these people think that repeating this statement often enough will somehow make it true? Have these people actually seen many Igbos? There is a reason biracial Thandie Newton was cast to play an Igbo woman in a recent movie, and that there are endless message boards on the internet asking whether the Igbo are mixed-race, and why some Igbos themselves believe they have some Jewish ancestry.

    Sorry for the long post, that will be all from me. And to all those high-achieving Igbos out there, keep up the good work! :)
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  • Harold Ekeh, a Nigerian student who performed very well academically and was an Intel Talent Search semifinalist may not even have taken the PSAT. Nor is there any mention of whether Saheela Ibraheem took the PSAT and got national achievement or national merit recognition. She might have skipped it entirely.

    Well, my strong impression is that the overwhelming majority of high-performing H.S. students take the PSAT for the prestige and for very lucrative scholarship opportunities it offers, and I can’t see why Nigerian-American students would not do so. One problem with using the Intel, is that it’s a substantially *subjective* competition, hence much less reliable as a metric than an objectively scored test. Similar problems apply with using Presidential Scholarships or Ivy League admissions. The PSAT is also a better measure than the very similar SAT, since the latter can be taken numerous times by sufficiently determined students, with only their highest scores being reported.

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    I am not under the impression that Intel Science Talent Search semifinalist recognition is a more objective measure at all and I did not bring it up to suggest that it is. But I do believe it is a more selective recognition or award than the National Merit Semifinalist list and that belief is based on the actual selectivity of the awards combined with the prestige of the competition for high achieving high school students. My point was that such a person who got Intel semifinalist recognition could still have skipped the PSAT if they felt they didn't need it as preparation for the SAT and that may be why there is no mention of Ekeh as either a national achievement or national merit semifinalist. In the case of the 15 year old who got a near perfect score on her SAT she might have skipped the PSAT as well since no mention is made of semifinalist or national achievement recognition for her either. I would not just assume that they took it without evidence and the fact they may not have, since it is not something nearly essential like the ACT or SAT is a relevant factor.

    It is not unreasonable to suggest that the majority of high-performing high school students do take the PSAT but I do not think one can simply ignore the fact that some may not take it.

    But as I said before the National Achievement list cannot be a good measure of how well Nigerians (relative to their population) are performing compared to American Blacks since some Nigerians just will not show up on the National Achievement list if they are on the National Merit semifinalist and finalist lists.
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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Again, their early use of metal smelting (why the snark word “supposed”?) doesn’t count for much in itself. What counts is the scale of the production. We should also consider the techniques of metallurgy, which appear to be largely of indigenous origin. This was not the case with the Hausa, among whom metallurgy appeared later in time and was largely inspired by North African and Middle Eastern traditions.”

    I didn’t intend it as snark because I’ve heard of a pretty wide range of places and times where metal smelting developed in West Africa. 2,000 BC is the earliest date I’ve heard, but it’s not certain this is where it was first developed indigenously in West Africa, and we know primitive steel was independently developed in Tanzania. I am really not sure where you get the idea that the Hausa developed it much later in time, because the Hausa as a people didn’t come together until the early middle ages and we find metal smelting in other parts of West Africa from well before that.

    The problem with your arguments about the Igbo being likely as intelligent as they are due to their history is that you don’t have much of a coherent timeline or consideration of other aspects of West African history, or atleast presenting some of them for people to properly understand, and variously claiming flat out untrue things about african history. For starters, when were the Igbo known to have been trading heavily with others, or atleast be prominent traders in this region? The paper you cite alludes to this being why so much iron was produced in 765 BC, but what about in 2,000 BC, the earliest one? What was the impetus for the Igbo developing iron so early? Is there any evidence the earliest iron smelting relates to trade? Exactly when do the ancient egyptian beads date to? These beads were found in Igbo-Ukwu, but Igbo-Ukwu dates to the central middle ages. The art at Igbo-Ukwu wasn’t produced until close to well over 1,000 years after the major iron production in 765 BC, and the other major artistic traditions in Nigeria, Ile Ife and Benin, developed a few to several centuries after Igbo-Ukwu, and were equal or greater to the expertise shown in Igbo artwork.

    This also fails to consider all of the places in between Igboland and places far outside of Nigeria that could have acted as middlemen, especially if beads all the way from Ancient Egypt made it down there. Heavy urbanization existed along the Niger river well before Islam (detailed in the video link I posted), and trade has been going on between that region and North Africa for a very long time (to say nothing of the scale in the middle ages). This paper from 1997 finds that Gao, all the way in Mali, acted as a middleman for trade that led to Igbo-Ukwu: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25130610?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    Finally, you say their early development of iron-smelting in and of itself isn’t what counts, but the scale of production, and then later, you state that their early development of iron smelting and a market economy is an example of how they developed much more through their own resources and intellect.

    “More snark. Why not say “semi-literate” instead of “pre-literate”? This is supposed to be an academic discussion and not a political debate. Also, it’s natural selection, not social selection.”

    I don’t know if an ideographic script with “possible logarithmic elements” is enough to elevate them to even semi-literate. We also don’t know who invented Nsibidi.

    “Again, you attach too much importance to the trappings of centralized state formation (building of monuments, palaces, etc.) By that line of reasoning, the Ashkenazi Jews were nobodies. For that matter, the English were nobodies for most of their history.”

    I’m not trying to, I’m skeptical of the cognitive demands of many positions in pre-literate cultures, but I think if we take the totality of achievement as indicative of intelligence in Nigeria, the Igbo are outclassed by other groups. To that end, I am skeptical of the cognitive demands of mercantile positions and such in pre-literate civilizations- this is a point raised in Ferguson’s critique of Cochran and Harpending, that the money-lending positions of the Ashkenazi were so intensively selective that it only not only heavily raised intelligence among the Ashkenazi, but this was by way of multiple DRA’s, of which the idea they were so cognitively demanding is overrated, and that there is little actual evidence the DRA’s raise intelligence.

    Regarding your wikipedia citation on the Benin Empire, it does not at all say Portuguese trade was the impetus for Benin’s formation. The Portuguese contacted them in 1485, 45 years after Benin became an empire, not a city-state, so Benin as a city-state existed for even longer before the Portuguese, and urbanization even moreso. The rest merely states that they adopted the name of Benin City after the Portuguese designation. Benin was not formed because of trade with the Portuguese.

    I did not dispute that Oyo formed by then, but Ile Ife was formed earlier and that their art was not produced under the reign of Oyo. Ile Ife as an urban center did not form until the 12th century, but was this really true of the rest of the Yoruba? What does it matter whether it was produced under royal patronage and not trade?

    Kanem-Bornu was in no way a Hausa state, the ethnic groups that composed and founded it are not Hausa, and it has long been centered in Niger and Chad, not northern Nigeria, although Kanem-Bornu did at one point control northeast Nigeria and presumably much of the Hausa.

    “You seem to subscribe to the Truth school of HBD.”

    I don’t. I don’t know why you’re saying this. And now you seem to be implying that the descendants of the Nok devolved and lost the advantages they had, and that in general, people who lose a prior high levle of social development will lose it over time if they don’t have a way of sustaining it. A lot could be said about this, but in the case of the descendants of the Nok, this really stretches credibility. As far as I can tell, we know little about the Nok aside from their artwork, and while that would certainly imply they had established settlements, it seems likely the case the Nok settlements were definitely not as advanced, large or plentiful as their successors, so how could they have devolved? What in the time from when their culture died out until they arose as the other groups later on gave them advantage again?

    And can’t this extend to the Igbo in a way? One of their most exemplary outputs in metal working was their artwork in Igbo-Ukwu, but after Igbo-Ukwu was apparently abandoned, Igbo art seemed to have rarely been made of metal and was mostly wood, and I think is fair to say was greatly inferior.

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  • @Ron Unz
    Well, I'll admit I haven't looked through this extremely long comment-thread, but isn't there a pretty easy way to get a handle on the relative academic performance of e.g. Nigerian-Americans vs. American blacks in general?

    The National Achievement Scholarship Program is only open to black students in the U.S., and has since 1964 provided awards to 1600 top-scoring students each year based on the PSAT (an exact parallel to the NMS system). If someone manages to track down the lists of winners, the Nigerian-Ibo names should be very distinctive and easy to recognize, as well as those of lots of other African immigrant groups. In addition, Jamaican blacks and others from the Caribbean often have somewhat distinctive first and last names, and perhaps could be roughly estimated as well.

    Since a large majority of American blacks have ordinary Anglo-Saxon names, their numbers are normally very difficult to determine, but since this competition is only open to black students, the problem disappears.

    Furthermore, the winners on this list could then be cross-checked against the NMS list from the same state or city to determine if their scores were high enough to reach that more difficult cut-off as well.

    This is not a good method to resolve this issue. I talked about this in my discussion with candid_observer.

    Harold Ekeh, a Nigerian student who performed very well academically and was an Intel Talent Search semifinalist may not even have taken the PSAT. Nor is there any mention of whether Saheela Ibraheem took the PSAT and got national achievement or national merit recognition. She might have skipped it entirely. I also mentioned in my conversation with candid_observer one national merit semifinalist of Nigerian ancestry that I was acquainted with personally and I was able to find one other semifinalist and one finalist after 15-20 minutes of looking online. None of these sorts of people – people like Ekeh and Ibraheem, who may not even have taken the PSAT, and people like the semifinalists and finalist I mentioned – would be reflected in such a comparison about national achievement scholars even though they are all Nigerian and would be relevant to determining how well Nigerians do.

    You also stated “In addition, Jamaican blacks and others from the Caribbean often have somewhat distinctive first and last names, and perhaps could be roughly estimated as well.

    But this is basically untrue. There are a few English names with some Caribbeans are more fond of than others but this is not as helpful as you think because many of them still have ordinary English names which are not that distinctive and are more or less the same as the English or other European names borne by American blacks.

    In addition there are some black Africans with first and last names that are purely in non-African languages like Hebrew names (because of Christianity), Muslim names (because of Islam), or European (the former president of Nigeria was named Goodluck Johnathan – a combination of European words and a Hebrew Christian name). But this also applies to American blacks, as some have Christian or Muslim names or European names in various combinations also.

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  • @syonredux

    Just out of (very mild) curiosity – who is it, exactly, that you have in mind when you make these bizarre claims about what commenters on this site believe? (i.e.: there are 3 or 4 races, they are natural kinds, and their characteristics are immutable.)

    Are you talking about Svigor? or Jefferson? or Whiskey? or Leftist Conservative? Or Syon? or any of the other frequent commenters here that I can think of off the top of my head?
     

    Well, he certainly can't mean me.I've never said anything about "races having immutable characteristics."That's a completely anti-evolutionary notion.

    As for how many "races" there are, I don't think that I've ever limited it to 3 or 4.To the contrary, I have noted that race, as a concept, can be scaled up or scaled down.For example:

    British Isles: small scale race.Very, very closely related.

    Northern Europe: somewhat bigger.Very closely related, but not as closely related as the British Isles grouping.

    Continental Europe: Much bigger. Closely related, but not as closely related as the Northern European cluster.

    North Africa,West Asia, Europe: Broadly related.As big as you can go, really, and still make a reasonably coherent group.

    Note that each group is defined in opposition to something else.

    British Isles: In contrast to non-British Isles

    Northern Europe: in contrast to Southern Europe

    Europe: in contrast to non-Europe

    North Africa,West Asia, Europe: in contrast to the other Continental scale races: Australoids, Amerinds, etc.

    “Well, he certainly can’t mean me.”

    But, syon, given his response to me above, he *does* mean you…or, at the very least, he doesn’t care to distinguish between you and the others I mentioned (all of whom, so far as I can judge, are equally innocent as charged.)

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  • @Qasim
    Obsolete, thin gruel that most modern scientists don’t use. And pray tell what are indigenous Australians?

    Notice I said 3-4 macro-races. The 4 is there for a reason, as Australoids are often classified as the fourth. Maybe you should read things more carefully before you start doing the lol thing.

    And calling something obsolete gruel doesn't magically make it so. And what modern scientists may or may not use just speaks to the ideological committments of modern scientists. This website recently published an article by Robert Trivers, the sections on Gould and Lewontin show perfect examples of ideology trumping a dispassionate search for the truth.

    Also, simply NOTING the diversity of skin color amongst sub-Saharan Africans is not the same as EXPLAINING said diversity, no matter how many fancy articles you site. It is true than the San have a yellowish complexion. Bantus (the group we are actually discussing), on the other hand, are generally exceedingly dark-skinned. When one sees an African-American with a lighter complexion, one naturally assumes partial European ancestry. So why is a similar thought process dismissed out of hand amongst Africans? Because the alleged admixture took place in prehistory? Again, the Razib Khan article states that Neanderthal DNA has been found amongst Nigerians. Eurasian admixure DID take place in that region of the world, the only question is whether this helps to explain Igbo intellectual achievement.

    And why is it that the pattern of light-skinned elites has manifested itself over and over throughout world history? South America, the Caribbean, the Middle East, India, and now Nigeria. Weird, no? Ideologically addled people such as yourself can write 20 posts and link to 50 articles all you want, the individual trees do not obscure the forest at all.

    Bantus (the group we are actually discussing), on the other hand, are generally exceedingly dark-skinned.

    You probably have never been to Africa. Bantu is a linguistic group and there are lots of peoples within the Bantu linguistic group with skin colors that are different shades of brown than “exceedingly dark-skinned” and this variation occurs for different groups but also within groups as well. But west Africans are mostly not Bantu anyway.

    There is also no evidence of “light skinned elites” in Nigeria. Many of the Igbos are dark brown rather than light brown skinned and many neighboring groups also have light skinned peoples and dark skin colors among them as well shades in between light brown and dark brown. Igbos and neighboring groups vary in skin color just as Europeans and East Asians do even without admixture.

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  • @Deduction

    it is just another variation among Africans, who have the HIGHEST skin color diversity n the world- whether it be the pale, yellowish San, to some of the so-called ‘Red” Igbo, to numerous other variants in between.
     
    Bigger than the difference between Swedes and South Indians?

    Bigger than the difference between Swedes and South Indians?

    There is great skin color variation among South Indians too. You won’t find anyone as pale as a Swede, but there are people who could pass for light-skinned Middle Easterners or Greeks. For example, this lady is a South Indian.

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  • @Deduction

    it is just another variation among Africans, who have the HIGHEST skin color diversity n the world- whether it be the pale, yellowish San, to some of the so-called ‘Red” Igbo, to numerous other variants in between.
     
    Bigger than the difference between Swedes and South Indians?

    What is the measurement you are using for the magnitude of difference? And would Swedes have more variation in skin colors than South Indians or less?

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  • @FirstPerson
    This is an inadequate analysis.

    First one of the main themes of Chisala's article was not to just lump groups into "black" and "white". It is misleading for the purposes of the discussion to say that "blacks in the UK would appear to be almost entirely composed of higher achieving groups from Africa and the Caribbean" when in fact the groups being discussed are only groups from certain countries in Africa like Nigeria and Ghana. Other blacks from African countries that are economically and educationally worse off than Nigeria and Ghana and which do not show the same rates of high educational achievement of their immigrant populations also go to medical school in the UK including students who did not actually grow up in the UK and did not receive most of their earlier schooling in the UK. Also more of the black population in the UK is of Afro-Caribbean origin than Nigerian, Ghanaian, Cameroonian, Kenyan, etc. origin and Afro-Caribbean immigrants do not actually have the same general statistics as African immigrants from countries like the aforementioned ones.

    My analysis based on medical school cognitive test performance is of course not refined enough to come to any precise results regarding, say, Nigerians and Ghanans (?) from the UK. But the problem with your objection is that there’s almost no way to make the numbers work so that Nigerians and Ghanans do as well as whites on this medical school test.

    There are about 180K Nigerians and 94K Ghanans in England, according to wikipedia. There are about 1.8M blacks in England. So between the two, they comprise about 15% of blacks in England. But they are, by your assumption, by a good measure the more able of the blacks in England. Yet only quite good students will be in any kind of position to be a medical student. So if they are by a good measure the better students among the blacks, then their numbers should dominate those of medical students — probably in excess of half of them, under your assumptions.

    But then they pretty much must perform quite poorly compared to whites, because the average for black medical students can’t be 1.14 SD below whites unless this dominant portion also performs poorly.

    You see, there really is no way these numbers can be disaggregated and be consistent with the idea that students of Nigerian or Ghanan ancestry perform nearly as well as whites.

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    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    "So between the two, they comprise about 15% of blacks in England. But they are, by your assumption, by a good measure the more able of the blacks in England. Yet only quite good students will be in any kind of position to be a medical student. So if they are by a good measure the better students among the blacks, then their numbers should dominate those of medical students — probably in excess of half of them, under your assumptions."

    This does not follow from my assumptions. I will try to be a bit clearer since I did not get my point across. I certainly do not believe that the Nigerians, Ghanaians, some Kenyans, etc. would constitute up to half of the medical students that are black, let alone be in excess of half. I think that if anything groups from African countries that do not have the kind of trend of immigrants performing well that these groups do have and who are Africans coming from economically and educationally less progressive countries in Africa, plus the Afro-Caribbean blacks that generally do not actually have the same statistics as immigrants from Nigeria, Ghana, etc. would constitute the majority. That that the Nigerians, Ghanaians, etc. would not constitute half or the majority but instead be outnumbered by other groups was the entire idea of my comment (though I did not assume or invent what fraction of the medical students they would constitute, as you did). If you read it again I think you will see that.

    I also do not see the pertinence of your claim that "only quite good students will be in any kind of position to be a medical student" in the context of what I stated. My point is that some black students from different backgrounds will likely be better than others based on other statistics and observed trends for those groups. The UK Clinical Aptitude Test can be taken regardless of whether you are actually a "quite good" student or if you just think that you are quite good. Some black students (Nigerians, Ghanaians, Kenyans, etc.) may be more "quite good" than other black students of different backgrounds yet all, whether mediocre, good, quite good or more than quite good will be allowed to take the test.
    , @Deduction
    Comparing medical scores is unfair. Black medical students in Britain are able to benefit from racial discrimination and so have a lower hurdle to jump when entering medical school.

    It would be very surprising therefore if they did not have a lower score on that test.
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  • @Truth

    Are you talking about Svigor? or Jefferson? or Whiskey? or Leftist Conservative? Or Syon? or any of the other frequent commenters here that I can think of off the top of my head?
     
    Yeah, sounds good.

    But, Truth, you surprising man – to my knowledge (and I follow comments here way more than I should) none of those guys have ever claimed anything of the sort!

    Maybe you could give me a link?

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    • Replies: @Truth
    There is a great story I read once about some educated Methodist Preachers, Doctorate types, going on a trip to Japan to study Zen in, In , I believe it was, the 18th century.

    They spend their time whore-mongering with the Japanese girls, getting wasted on sakki, demanding things, and not taking baths. These were of course their customs, and they were amongst heathens, so why wouldn't they take a little advantage?

    Finally after some time, they got around to a little bit of philosophical discussion with the monks, however instead of trying to understand, one of the Christians took it upon himself to play "faith gotcha" with them, asking the sort of philosophical questions for which there is not answer such as "If God is all-powerful, can he create a rock to heavy for himself to lift."

    The monk, being confused by the foreigner's style of "mutual learning", stopped him for a second and asked him:

    "Sir, why is it that you are so concerned about the condition of your beard, when the executioner long ago removed your head?
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  • @Ron Unz
    Well, I'll admit I haven't looked through this extremely long comment-thread, but isn't there a pretty easy way to get a handle on the relative academic performance of e.g. Nigerian-Americans vs. American blacks in general?

    The National Achievement Scholarship Program is only open to black students in the U.S., and has since 1964 provided awards to 1600 top-scoring students each year based on the PSAT (an exact parallel to the NMS system). If someone manages to track down the lists of winners, the Nigerian-Ibo names should be very distinctive and easy to recognize, as well as those of lots of other African immigrant groups. In addition, Jamaican blacks and others from the Caribbean often have somewhat distinctive first and last names, and perhaps could be roughly estimated as well.

    Since a large majority of American blacks have ordinary Anglo-Saxon names, their numbers are normally very difficult to determine, but since this competition is only open to black students, the problem disappears.

    Furthermore, the winners on this list could then be cross-checked against the NMS list from the same state or city to determine if their scores were high enough to reach that more difficult cut-off as well.

    Sounds like a good idea, Ron.

    I’ve looked at some of the lists of National Merit Scholarship semifinalists, but I can’t easily distinguish some of the South Asian names from the African names, and your approach narrows down the prospects pretty well.

    Probably, though, those who have a good sense of, say, African names would be able to spot them reliably enough anyway directly in the list of Merit semifinalists.

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  • @Qasim
    Obsolete, thin gruel that most modern scientists don’t use. And pray tell what are indigenous Australians?

    Notice I said 3-4 macro-races. The 4 is there for a reason, as Australoids are often classified as the fourth. Maybe you should read things more carefully before you start doing the lol thing.

    And calling something obsolete gruel doesn't magically make it so. And what modern scientists may or may not use just speaks to the ideological committments of modern scientists. This website recently published an article by Robert Trivers, the sections on Gould and Lewontin show perfect examples of ideology trumping a dispassionate search for the truth.

    Also, simply NOTING the diversity of skin color amongst sub-Saharan Africans is not the same as EXPLAINING said diversity, no matter how many fancy articles you site. It is true than the San have a yellowish complexion. Bantus (the group we are actually discussing), on the other hand, are generally exceedingly dark-skinned. When one sees an African-American with a lighter complexion, one naturally assumes partial European ancestry. So why is a similar thought process dismissed out of hand amongst Africans? Because the alleged admixture took place in prehistory? Again, the Razib Khan article states that Neanderthal DNA has been found amongst Nigerians. Eurasian admixure DID take place in that region of the world, the only question is whether this helps to explain Igbo intellectual achievement.

    And why is it that the pattern of light-skinned elites has manifested itself over and over throughout world history? South America, the Caribbean, the Middle East, India, and now Nigeria. Weird, no? Ideologically addled people such as yourself can write 20 posts and link to 50 articles all you want, the individual trees do not obscure the forest at all.

    They don’t if you use the hide function for certain commenters.

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  • @Enrique Cardova
    but the macro-division of Mongoloid/Caucasoid/Negroid still stands.

    Obsolete, thin gruel that most modern scientists don't use. And pray tell what are indigenous Australians? Now go through some dubious contortions to try to shoehorn them into one of your "standing" categories.. lol

    .
    Furthermore, the standard HBD belief is that the increased intelligence of Europeans and East Asians in comparison to Sub-Saharan Africans is due to the selection pressures brought about by having to survive winters for many millenia.

    And this "standard belief " has been pretty much debunked by credible scholarship.

    Evolution, brain size, and the national IQ of peoples ... - Jelte Wicherts 2010
    http://wicherts.socsci.uva.nl/wichertsPAIDrejoinder.pdf

    http://nilevalleypeoples.blogspot.com/2014/03/hbd-heriditarian-race-reality-claims.html

    www.anth.uconn.edu/faculty/mcbrearty/Pdf/McB%20&%20Brooks%202000%20TRTW.pdf

    .
    then one would expect to find numerous examples of peoples throughout Africa arising from similar geographic circumstances exhibiting Igbo levels of educational achievement.

    Actually there are several peoples (see Sierra Leone for example) who have attained high levels of educational achievement in their local societies. However many people from these groups however have not migrated out to the extent of the Igbo, so test measures from the UK are not available on them, but they like the Igbo, show early adoption to modern Western education, which yields enduring advantages on assorted modern tests. This is indeed a common pattern not only in Africa but elsewhere. Scotland, once a backwater, adapted to British hegemony over many centuries, with fulsome benefit and achievement for the Scots, through their centuries of association with a larger hegemon's framework. Scots went on for example to do well in the educational system of Britain over the centuries.

    .
    Isn’t is therefore more parsimonious to conclude the Igbo have been smarter than their neighbors from time immemorial?
    Actually this is one of the LEAST parsimonious conclusions. "Time immemorial" would cover all data up to the present era, hardly a "parsimonious" way of doing things. Peter's argument is reasonable in the sense that elements of the Igbo culture, coalesced and found linkages with the incoming British culture that enabled more rapid adaptation to the modern industrial era, and its educational structures.

    .
    And as other commenters here have noted, there IS a widespread stereotype of the Igbo being light-skinned amongst other Nigerians. All the above reasons lead me to conclude that the hypothesis that high Igbo intelligence is at least partly the result of Eurasian admixture can not not be dismissed so quickly.

    Actually credible scholarship already quoted (Relethford 2000, et al) has already debunked and dismissed your obsolete "white blood" theory. Igbo variation in skin color is nothing special- it is just another variation among Africans, who have the HIGHEST skin color diversity n the world- whether it be the pale, yellowish San, to some of the so-called 'Red" Igbo, to numerous other variants in between. Such variation is nothing new, and nothing special in Africa.

    “Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits
    have found higher levels of within-population diversity
    in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions. T
    his study examines regional differences in within-population
    diversity of human skin color. Published data on skin
    reflectance were collected for 98 male samples from eight
    geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, Europe,
    West Asia, Southwest Asia, South Asia, Australasia, and the
    New World. Regional differences in local within-population
    diversity were examined using two measures of variability:
    the sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation.
    For both measures, the average level of within-population
    diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other
    geographic regions. This difference persists even after
    adjusting for a correlation between within-population
    diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected
    by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same
    pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits.”
    –Relethford JH.. 2001. Human skin color diversity is
    highest in sub-Saharan African populations.

    Hum Biol. 2001 Oct;73(5):629-36.

    Obsolete, thin gruel that most modern scientists don’t use. And pray tell what are indigenous Australians?

    Notice I said 3-4 macro-races. The 4 is there for a reason, as Australoids are often classified as the fourth. Maybe you should read things more carefully before you start doing the lol thing.

    And calling something obsolete gruel doesn’t magically make it so. And what modern scientists may or may not use just speaks to the ideological committments of modern scientists. This website recently published an article by Robert Trivers, the sections on Gould and Lewontin show perfect examples of ideology trumping a dispassionate search for the truth.

    Also, simply NOTING the diversity of skin color amongst sub-Saharan Africans is not the same as EXPLAINING said diversity, no matter how many fancy articles you site. It is true than the San have a yellowish complexion. Bantus (the group we are actually discussing), on the other hand, are generally exceedingly dark-skinned. When one sees an African-American with a lighter complexion, one naturally assumes partial European ancestry. So why is a similar thought process dismissed out of hand amongst Africans? Because the alleged admixture took place in prehistory? Again, the Razib Khan article states that Neanderthal DNA has been found amongst Nigerians. Eurasian admixure DID take place in that region of the world, the only question is whether this helps to explain Igbo intellectual achievement.

    And why is it that the pattern of light-skinned elites has manifested itself over and over throughout world history? South America, the Caribbean, the Middle East, India, and now Nigeria. Weird, no? Ideologically addled people such as yourself can write 20 posts and link to 50 articles all you want, the individual trees do not obscure the forest at all.

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    • Replies: @Sean
    They don't if you use the hide function for certain commenters.
    , @FirstPerson
    "Bantus (the group we are actually discussing), on the other hand, are generally exceedingly dark-skinned."

    You probably have never been to Africa. Bantu is a linguistic group and there are lots of peoples within the Bantu linguistic group with skin colors that are different shades of brown than "exceedingly dark-skinned" and this variation occurs for different groups but also within groups as well. But west Africans are mostly not Bantu anyway.

    There is also no evidence of "light skinned elites" in Nigeria. Many of the Igbos are dark brown rather than light brown skinned and many neighboring groups also have light skinned peoples and dark skin colors among them as well shades in between light brown and dark brown. Igbos and neighboring groups vary in skin color just as Europeans and East Asians do even without admixture.

    , @Enrique Cardova
    Notice I said 3-4 macro-races. The 4 is there for a reason, as Australoids are often classified as the fourth. Maybe you should read things more carefully before you start doing the lol thing.

    Maybe you should be more careful about what you right, for you yourself specifically asserted three races- Quote: "but the macro-division of Mongoloid/Caucasoid/Negroid still stands." And up above you say nothing about Australians until I mentioned them, nor did you include Australians in your 3-part "macro" races division.


    .
    his website recently published an article by Robert Trivers, the sections on Gould and Lewontin show perfect examples of ideology trumping a dispassionate search for the truth.
    Curiously enough, you can proffer nothing specific to support your claims. How exactly does Lewontin support you for example? Why are specifics are missing in your alleged "dispassionate search for the truth?"

    .
    Also, simply NOTING the diversity of skin color amongst sub-Saharan Africans is not the same as EXPLAINING said diversity, no matter how many fancy articles you site.
    Actually the citation already explains it. Let's look at an excerpt of what scholar Relethford says above again- there is nothing "fancy" about it:

    “Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits
    have found higher levels of within-population diversity
    in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions...
    For both measures, the average level of within-population
    diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other
    geographic regions. This difference persists even after
    adjusting for a correlation between within-population
    diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected
    by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same
    pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits.”

    –Relethford JH.. 2001. Human skin color diversity is
    highest in sub-Saharan African populations.
    Hum Biol. 2001 Oct;73(5):629-36.

    As can be seen Relethford references (a) the already greater diversity of sub-Saharan Africans, which takes in genetic diversity and craniometric traits- nothing surprising given the evolution of anatomically modern humans in Africa. The origin point has greater diversity- everything else is a SUBSET of that diversity. Skin color is simply consistent with said pattern as Relethford shows. (b) Natural selection. This is basic Anthropology 101- nothing "fancy" about it.

    .
    It is true than the San have a yellowish complexion. Bantus (the group we are actually discussing), on the other hand, are generally exceedingly dark-skinned. When one sees an African-American with a lighter complexion, one naturally assumes partial European ancestry. So why is a similar thought process dismissed out of hand amongst Africans.
    You need to go through your thought process logically, for your notion that lighter skin in Africa must be due to some sort of "race mix" is contradicted by your own example. You mention the San, and admit they have pale skin, but don't seem to realize that your own statement contradicts your thought process. How did the San get yellow skin? Ancient Chinese colonists to the Kalahari or the Cape? Where is the evidence of these mysterious "Asiatic race mixers"? You don't have any.

    .
    Because the alleged admixture took place in prehistory?
    What admixture in pre-history gave the San yellow skin? You make all these sweeping pronouncements, but can produce nothing credible to back them up.

    .
    Neanderthal DNA has been found amongst Nigerians.
    But even if this is so, how did said Neanderthal DNA produce light skin in Nigerians? Once again, you merely assert that it is so, without producing a shred of credible evidence.

    .
    Eurasian admixure DID take place in that region of the world, the only question is whether this helps to explain Igbo intellectual achievement.
    But yet again, you only offer your own dubious opinion, without the slightest bit of credible evidence. Precisely when and how was said admixture and how did it affect Igbo intellectual achievement? You made the claim, but you have precious little to support it. When are you going to produce something credible?

    .
    And why is it that the pattern of light-skinned elites has manifested itself over and over throughout world history? South America, the Caribbean, the Middle East, India, and now Nigeria. Weird, no?
    No actually what's weird is your confused, laughable logic. The Igbo were no "light-skinned elite." In fact as shown above they did not match the power and sophistication of other more powerful empires and cultures around. And none of these other cultures were ruled by any "light skinned elite." Since when are the rulers of Benin for example a "light skinned" elite?

    .
    Ideologically addled people such as yourself can write 20 posts and link to 50 articles all you want, the individual trees do not obscure the forest at all.
    The only "addled" person is you, and I link to credible articles that debunk the rubbish you are pushing. You seem to be scared of actual credible scholarship- which is why you continuously try to avoid it. You and other intellectual lightweights can "hide" that scholarship, but it still does not change the fact that your claims are both dubious and false.

    , @Dipwill
    "Again, the Razib Khan article states that Neanderthal DNA has been found amongst Nigerians. Eurasian admixure DID take place in that region of the world, the only question is whether this helps to explain Igbo intellectual achievement."

    It didn't. The idea Neanderthals contributed anything to the intelligence of Eurasians has little basis. Neanderthal and cro-magnon brain size was identical, and larger brain size was typical throughout the world in the past, including Africa and Australia.

    Neanderthal admixture is not found only in Nigerians, it is found in most africans, and originated from about several thousand years with breeding between africans and north africans, not neanderthals themselves, who died out even longer ago.

    There are other african peoples who are lighter than the Igbo who were nonetheless much more primitive than the rest of Africa, like the pygmies, khoisan, sandawe, hadza and some other extinct groups, who were all mostly stone-age hunter-gatherers.

    Stop asking the question (and making digs like "Ideologically addled people such as yourself" when you argue things like this), because it's based heavily on the finding neanderthal brain size was larger than the average for MODERN humans, not humans around the time neanderthals existed.

    , @Truth

    So why is a similar thought process dismissed out of hand amongst Africans? Because the alleged admixture took place in prehistory?
     
    LOL! Hey Dawg, you just splintered the wood beams in your foundation. I know all you have is a hammer, but you aren't supposed to use it on screws!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Enrique Cardova
    but the macro-division of Mongoloid/Caucasoid/Negroid still stands.

    Obsolete, thin gruel that most modern scientists don't use. And pray tell what are indigenous Australians? Now go through some dubious contortions to try to shoehorn them into one of your "standing" categories.. lol

    .
    Furthermore, the standard HBD belief is that the increased intelligence of Europeans and East Asians in comparison to Sub-Saharan Africans is due to the selection pressures brought about by having to survive winters for many millenia.

    And this "standard belief " has been pretty much debunked by credible scholarship.

    Evolution, brain size, and the national IQ of peoples ... - Jelte Wicherts 2010
    http://wicherts.socsci.uva.nl/wichertsPAIDrejoinder.pdf

    http://nilevalleypeoples.blogspot.com/2014/03/hbd-heriditarian-race-reality-claims.html

    www.anth.uconn.edu/faculty/mcbrearty/Pdf/McB%20&%20Brooks%202000%20TRTW.pdf

    .
    then one would expect to find numerous examples of peoples throughout Africa arising from similar geographic circumstances exhibiting Igbo levels of educational achievement.

    Actually there are several peoples (see Sierra Leone for example) who have attained high levels of educational achievement in their local societies. However many people from these groups however have not migrated out to the extent of the Igbo, so test measures from the UK are not available on them, but they like the Igbo, show early adoption to modern Western education, which yields enduring advantages on assorted modern tests. This is indeed a common pattern not only in Africa but elsewhere. Scotland, once a backwater, adapted to British hegemony over many centuries, with fulsome benefit and achievement for the Scots, through their centuries of association with a larger hegemon's framework. Scots went on for example to do well in the educational system of Britain over the centuries.

    .
    Isn’t is therefore more parsimonious to conclude the Igbo have been smarter than their neighbors from time immemorial?
    Actually this is one of the LEAST parsimonious conclusions. "Time immemorial" would cover all data up to the present era, hardly a "parsimonious" way of doing things. Peter's argument is reasonable in the sense that elements of the Igbo culture, coalesced and found linkages with the incoming British culture that enabled more rapid adaptation to the modern industrial era, and its educational structures.

    .
    And as other commenters here have noted, there IS a widespread stereotype of the Igbo being light-skinned amongst other Nigerians. All the above reasons lead me to conclude that the hypothesis that high Igbo intelligence is at least partly the result of Eurasian admixture can not not be dismissed so quickly.

    Actually credible scholarship already quoted (Relethford 2000, et al) has already debunked and dismissed your obsolete "white blood" theory. Igbo variation in skin color is nothing special- it is just another variation among Africans, who have the HIGHEST skin color diversity n the world- whether it be the pale, yellowish San, to some of the so-called 'Red" Igbo, to numerous other variants in between. Such variation is nothing new, and nothing special in Africa.

    “Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits
    have found higher levels of within-population diversity
    in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions. T
    his study examines regional differences in within-population
    diversity of human skin color. Published data on skin
    reflectance were collected for 98 male samples from eight
    geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, Europe,
    West Asia, Southwest Asia, South Asia, Australasia, and the
    New World. Regional differences in local within-population
    diversity were examined using two measures of variability:
    the sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation.
    For both measures, the average level of within-population
    diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other
    geographic regions. This difference persists even after
    adjusting for a correlation between within-population
    diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected
    by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same
    pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits.”
    –Relethford JH.. 2001. Human skin color diversity is
    highest in sub-Saharan African populations.

    Hum Biol. 2001 Oct;73(5):629-36.

    it is just another variation among Africans, who have the HIGHEST skin color diversity n the world- whether it be the pale, yellowish San, to some of the so-called ‘Red” Igbo, to numerous other variants in between.

    Bigger than the difference between Swedes and South Indians?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Enrique Cardova
    What is the measurement you are using for the magnitude of difference? And would Swedes have more variation in skin colors than South Indians or less?
    , @Numinous

    Bigger than the difference between Swedes and South Indians?
     
    There is great skin color variation among South Indians too. You won't find anyone as pale as a Swede, but there are people who could pass for light-skinned Middle Easterners or Greeks. For example, this lady is a South Indian.
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