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    For most Americans, Independence Day means firecrackers and cookouts. The Declaration of Independence—whose proclamation, on July 4, 1776, we celebrate—doesn't feature. Contemporary Americans are less likely to read it now that it’s easily available on the Internet, than when it relied on horseback riders for its distribution. It is fair to say that the Declaration...
  • @K
    ''The Dominion of India, the successor state to the Raj, invaded 600 independent states, some, like Hyderabad or Mysore, large countries to form India. Nepal, Bhutan and Sikkim were unfinished business in this respect. Sri Lanka too.''

    India had no ambition to take over sri-lanka, nepal, bhutan. As for dominion of india 'invading' 600 states. those states were 'indian' to begin with. The indian govt retook the land from the kings and integrated it into a modern functioning democracy. And those 'states' remained under the rule of their own people, with the only difference being the states were democratic now. And all the money from those states (except a few federal taxes which even the states that were not 'invaded' (according to you)had to pay) was spent on the peoples of those states themselves. It was not an invasion or conquest.

    England was formed in a similar way. Various anglo-saxon kingdoms 'united' to form england. Would you call that an 'invasion' by some anglo-saxon kingdoms of other kingdoms?


    As for british rule, yes india's GDP may have been the same after british came, but that 'output' was shipped of to london too. Read more books about british rule in india, not just from one or two authors.

    “Would you call that an ‘invasion’ by some anglo-saxon kingdoms of other kingdoms?”

    Well, I certainly would.

    The merging of Scotland and England into Great Britain, OTOH, is an example of the “merging” you mention, though it followed many centuries of mutual invasions.

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  • All true.

    Except that the financial expansion associated with growing and processing cotton was no mere financial bubble. It was a genuine financial growth area, indeed it was one of the main foundations of the industrial revolution.

    Also true about slavery in S. America and the Caribbean vs. America. Slaves cost more here at least partly because the North American market was the farthest from the source, and of course prices went up more rapidly once importation was stopped. The economy of VA and to some extent KY was to a considerable extent based on exportation of slaves to the Deep South in the decades before the War.

    Cane field work was peculiarly brutal and dangerous, a major cause of the high death rate. But then white people, even the plantation owners, also had an immensely high death rate and low birth rate in the Islands, and they didn’t work the cane fields.

    Entire armies died of tropical diseases in the Islands, changing the course of history. For instance, Napoleon sold Louisiana to US largely because his army sent to retake St. Domingue (with a possible projected expansion into Louisiana and the rest of North America) pretty much all died of yellow jack and malaria. 7,000 survivors out of 31,000, most of them severely debilitated. So Nappy cut his losses and abandoned his American projects.

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  • @Logan
    True, but the population explosion was underway long before 1807.

    One of the more disgusting things I learned about Jefferson was that he began to downplay his earlier opposition to slavery just about when he noticed that slaves, especially slave women, were an excellent investment.

    were an excellent investment.

    Yes, slaves were an excellent investment. Many notables in England (and New England) made fortunes by investing in the shares of slaving concerns. It has been pointed out many times (correctly), the invention of the cotton gin and the opening of the Deep South slave states to settlers created a gigantic economic bubble. As the rice, tobacco and indigo sectors were waning, the slave trade to the exploding cotton belt made slaves as good as gold.

    The slaves in the Caribbean and Brazil didn’t die because of the tropical weather. They died because they were worked to death in the cane fields. It was literally cheaper to buy a slave, work him to death in 6-8 years and buy a replacement than to invest in the “homegrown” slave sector; not so in the US.

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  • True, but the population explosion was underway long before 1807.

    One of the more disgusting things I learned about Jefferson was that he began to downplay his earlier opposition to slavery just about when he noticed that slaves, especially slave women, were an excellent investment.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    were an excellent investment.

    Yes, slaves were an excellent investment. Many notables in England (and New England) made fortunes by investing in the shares of slaving concerns. It has been pointed out many times (correctly), the invention of the cotton gin and the opening of the Deep South slave states to settlers created a gigantic economic bubble. As the rice, tobacco and indigo sectors were waning, the slave trade to the exploding cotton belt made slaves as good as gold.

    The slaves in the Caribbean and Brazil didn’t die because of the tropical weather. They died because they were worked to death in the cane fields. It was literally cheaper to buy a slave, work him to death in 6-8 years and buy a replacement than to invest in the “homegrown” slave sector; not so in the US.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Logan
    A population explosion is inherently an indication of pretty good conditions. It just doesn't happen when times are really bad.

    For instance, I recently read a most interesting book about the Sugar Islands of the Caribbean. I had not been previously aware how vastly important they were on the world stage during the 17th and 18th centuries.

    During the whole period prior to our Revolution roughly the same number of white Brits emigrated to the Islands and to North America, about 500,000. White population was about 50,000 in the Islands in the 1770s and about 2M in the mainland colonies. Whites died like flies in the islands during this period, had few children and had very high mortality among those that were born.

    Slaves in the Caribbean were imported in truly massive numbers, but died even faster. Again, few children and very high infant mortality. Constant importation was needed just to keep populations stable.

    In the entire period from Jamestown to our Civil War, the black population exploded. <400,000 were imported, but population was 4M in 1860. Black populations grew every bit as fast as white in America. A slave population that not only sustained itself but grew very fast is probably unique in all history.

    Exploding populations pretty clearly do not indicate immense oppression or great suffering. So demographic facts indicate that Indians under British rule and American (as opposed to Caribbean) slaves were not greatly oppressed.

    to our Civil War, the black population exploded.

    You do understand that because our Constitution prohibited the importation of slaves after 1808 and the British Empire prohibited the slave trade in 1807 that slaves in the US became gooses laying golden eggs.

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  • K says:
    @Philip Owen
    I cleared out my two Indian histories from my bookshelf recently so I don't have a good reference other than books which go the other way. In particular, David Landes, The Wealth and Poverty of Nations which is about a lot more than India and perhaps overly sympathetic to Britain's role in the world.

    I have an interest because one of my collateral relatives Fredrick Jones was the Great Captain of the East India Company (Commander of the fleet like an Admiral in the military). From memory, India GDP by most estimates is given as constant in contrast to independent China's which shrank. Both countries had population expansions which suggests a miscalculation of GDP as there is no reason to think that the peasants were living above the Malthusian limit before the colonial period. There were always famines in both countries and they did not, in India's case get worse as the population expanded. The famines suggest that India on the whole was nowhere near as prosperous as Britain whatever the wealth and sophistication of its rulers. 1943 during the war is a special case. The industrial and service infrastructure added by Britain was clearly an enhancement.

    The Rajahs and Sultans got on rather well. Britain practised indirect rule and treated them like, say, Irish aristocrats - holders of titles, social equals to English peers but no place in the House of Lords. Most of India was not ruled by Britain anyway. The Dominion of India, the successor state to the Raj, invaded 600 independent states, some, like Hyderabad or Mysore, large countries to form India. Nepal, Bhutan and Sikkim were unfinished business in this respect. Sri Lanka too.

    Time out coming up.

    ”The Dominion of India, the successor state to the Raj, invaded 600 independent states, some, like Hyderabad or Mysore, large countries to form India. Nepal, Bhutan and Sikkim were unfinished business in this respect. Sri Lanka too.”

    India had no ambition to take over sri-lanka, nepal, bhutan. As for dominion of india ‘invading’ 600 states. those states were ‘indian’ to begin with. The indian govt retook the land from the kings and integrated it into a modern functioning democracy. And those ‘states’ remained under the rule of their own people, with the only difference being the states were democratic now. And all the money from those states (except a few federal taxes which even the states that were not ‘invaded’ (according to you)had to pay) was spent on the peoples of those states themselves. It was not an invasion or conquest.

    England was formed in a similar way. Various anglo-saxon kingdoms ‘united’ to form england. Would you call that an ‘invasion’ by some anglo-saxon kingdoms of other kingdoms?

    As for british rule, yes india’s GDP may have been the same after british came, but that ‘output’ was shipped of to london too. Read more books about british rule in india, not just from one or two authors.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Logan
    "Would you call that an ‘invasion’ by some anglo-saxon kingdoms of other kingdoms?"

    Well, I certainly would.

    The merging of Scotland and England into Great Britain, OTOH, is an example of the "merging" you mention, though it followed many centuries of mutual invasions.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Logan
    Something I've been interested in for some time is the effects of British conquest on India.

    There is no question that India fell far behind economically during the period of British rule, relative to Britain, Europe and USA. In 1600 India was probably more prosperous than Britain.

    But Indian scholars routinely claim that Britain looted India and that their rule led to an absolute decline in Indian prosperity, not just a relative one.

    Have so far been unable to find a book on the topic that appears to be interested in "just the facts," as every one I've looked at is pretty transparently interested in propping up the Leninist interpretation of events.

    Absolutely the nobles and rajahs took a major hit, but how did the common people fare over this period?

    A population explosion is inherently an indication of pretty good conditions. It just doesn’t happen when times are really bad.

    For instance, I recently read a most interesting book about the Sugar Islands of the Caribbean. I had not been previously aware how vastly important they were on the world stage during the 17th and 18th centuries.

    During the whole period prior to our Revolution roughly the same number of white Brits emigrated to the Islands and to North America, about 500,000. White population was about 50,000 in the Islands in the 1770s and about 2M in the mainland colonies. Whites died like flies in the islands during this period, had few children and had very high mortality among those that were born.

    Slaves in the Caribbean were imported in truly massive numbers, but died even faster. Again, few children and very high infant mortality. Constant importation was needed just to keep populations stable.

    In the entire period from Jamestown to our Civil War, the black population exploded. <400,000 were imported, but population was 4M in 1860. Black populations grew every bit as fast as white in America. A slave population that not only sustained itself but grew very fast is probably unique in all history.

    Exploding populations pretty clearly do not indicate immense oppression or great suffering. So demographic facts indicate that Indians under British rule and American (as opposed to Caribbean) slaves were not greatly oppressed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    to our Civil War, the black population exploded.

    You do understand that because our Constitution prohibited the importation of slaves after 1808 and the British Empire prohibited the slave trade in 1807 that slaves in the US became gooses laying golden eggs.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Logan
    Something I've been interested in for some time is the effects of British conquest on India.

    There is no question that India fell far behind economically during the period of British rule, relative to Britain, Europe and USA. In 1600 India was probably more prosperous than Britain.

    But Indian scholars routinely claim that Britain looted India and that their rule led to an absolute decline in Indian prosperity, not just a relative one.

    Have so far been unable to find a book on the topic that appears to be interested in "just the facts," as every one I've looked at is pretty transparently interested in propping up the Leninist interpretation of events.

    Absolutely the nobles and rajahs took a major hit, but how did the common people fare over this period?

    I cleared out my two Indian histories from my bookshelf recently so I don’t have a good reference other than books which go the other way. In particular, David Landes, The Wealth and Poverty of Nations which is about a lot more than India and perhaps overly sympathetic to Britain’s role in the world.

    I have an interest because one of my collateral relatives Fredrick Jones was the Great Captain of the East India Company (Commander of the fleet like an Admiral in the military). From memory, India GDP by most estimates is given as constant in contrast to independent China’s which shrank. Both countries had population expansions which suggests a miscalculation of GDP as there is no reason to think that the peasants were living above the Malthusian limit before the colonial period. There were always famines in both countries and they did not, in India’s case get worse as the population expanded. The famines suggest that India on the whole was nowhere near as prosperous as Britain whatever the wealth and sophistication of its rulers. 1943 during the war is a special case. The industrial and service infrastructure added by Britain was clearly an enhancement.

    The Rajahs and Sultans got on rather well. Britain practised indirect rule and treated them like, say, Irish aristocrats – holders of titles, social equals to English peers but no place in the House of Lords. Most of India was not ruled by Britain anyway. The Dominion of India, the successor state to the Raj, invaded 600 independent states, some, like Hyderabad or Mysore, large countries to form India. Nepal, Bhutan and Sikkim were unfinished business in this respect. Sri Lanka too.

    Time out coming up.

    Read More
    • Replies: @K
    ''The Dominion of India, the successor state to the Raj, invaded 600 independent states, some, like Hyderabad or Mysore, large countries to form India. Nepal, Bhutan and Sikkim were unfinished business in this respect. Sri Lanka too.''

    India had no ambition to take over sri-lanka, nepal, bhutan. As for dominion of india 'invading' 600 states. those states were 'indian' to begin with. The indian govt retook the land from the kings and integrated it into a modern functioning democracy. And those 'states' remained under the rule of their own people, with the only difference being the states were democratic now. And all the money from those states (except a few federal taxes which even the states that were not 'invaded' (according to you)had to pay) was spent on the peoples of those states themselves. It was not an invasion or conquest.

    England was formed in a similar way. Various anglo-saxon kingdoms 'united' to form england. Would you call that an 'invasion' by some anglo-saxon kingdoms of other kingdoms?


    As for british rule, yes india's GDP may have been the same after british came, but that 'output' was shipped of to london too. Read more books about british rule in india, not just from one or two authors.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Philip Owen
    Rather like most ex colonies claiming that their countries were Other Edens before colonisation.

    Something I’ve been interested in for some time is the effects of British conquest on India.

    There is no question that India fell far behind economically during the period of British rule, relative to Britain, Europe and USA. In 1600 India was probably more prosperous than Britain.

    But Indian scholars routinely claim that Britain looted India and that their rule led to an absolute decline in Indian prosperity, not just a relative one.

    Have so far been unable to find a book on the topic that appears to be interested in “just the facts,” as every one I’ve looked at is pretty transparently interested in propping up the Leninist interpretation of events.

    Absolutely the nobles and rajahs took a major hit, but how did the common people fare over this period?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    I cleared out my two Indian histories from my bookshelf recently so I don't have a good reference other than books which go the other way. In particular, David Landes, The Wealth and Poverty of Nations which is about a lot more than India and perhaps overly sympathetic to Britain's role in the world.

    I have an interest because one of my collateral relatives Fredrick Jones was the Great Captain of the East India Company (Commander of the fleet like an Admiral in the military). From memory, India GDP by most estimates is given as constant in contrast to independent China's which shrank. Both countries had population expansions which suggests a miscalculation of GDP as there is no reason to think that the peasants were living above the Malthusian limit before the colonial period. There were always famines in both countries and they did not, in India's case get worse as the population expanded. The famines suggest that India on the whole was nowhere near as prosperous as Britain whatever the wealth and sophistication of its rulers. 1943 during the war is a special case. The industrial and service infrastructure added by Britain was clearly an enhancement.

    The Rajahs and Sultans got on rather well. Britain practised indirect rule and treated them like, say, Irish aristocrats - holders of titles, social equals to English peers but no place in the House of Lords. Most of India was not ruled by Britain anyway. The Dominion of India, the successor state to the Raj, invaded 600 independent states, some, like Hyderabad or Mysore, large countries to form India. Nepal, Bhutan and Sikkim were unfinished business in this respect. Sri Lanka too.

    Time out coming up.

    , @Logan
    A population explosion is inherently an indication of pretty good conditions. It just doesn't happen when times are really bad.

    For instance, I recently read a most interesting book about the Sugar Islands of the Caribbean. I had not been previously aware how vastly important they were on the world stage during the 17th and 18th centuries.

    During the whole period prior to our Revolution roughly the same number of white Brits emigrated to the Islands and to North America, about 500,000. White population was about 50,000 in the Islands in the 1770s and about 2M in the mainland colonies. Whites died like flies in the islands during this period, had few children and had very high mortality among those that were born.

    Slaves in the Caribbean were imported in truly massive numbers, but died even faster. Again, few children and very high infant mortality. Constant importation was needed just to keep populations stable.

    In the entire period from Jamestown to our Civil War, the black population exploded. <400,000 were imported, but population was 4M in 1860. Black populations grew every bit as fast as white in America. A slave population that not only sustained itself but grew very fast is probably unique in all history.

    Exploding populations pretty clearly do not indicate immense oppression or great suffering. So demographic facts indicate that Indians under British rule and American (as opposed to Caribbean) slaves were not greatly oppressed.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Philip Owen
    Rather like most ex colonies claiming that their countries were Other Edens before colonisation.

    One example is that much of the population of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom were chattel slaves. After the Norman conquest most were converted to serfs.

    Serfdom is not a particularly enviable status, but a serf had legal rights and was not “an animal that speaks,” as chattel slaves are. To be sure, the serf’s legal rights were not by any means always followed, especially since the judge in any legal dispute he might have would likely be his lord, who was also the person he’d most likely have a dispute with.

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  • @Logan
    Believing in an Anglo-Saxon utopia destroyed by the Norman Conquest requires a pretty complete ignorance of what Anglo-Saxon society was actually like.

    Rather like most ex colonies claiming that their countries were Other Edens before colonisation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Logan
    One example is that much of the population of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom were chattel slaves. After the Norman conquest most were converted to serfs.

    Serfdom is not a particularly enviable status, but a serf had legal rights and was not "an animal that speaks," as chattel slaves are. To be sure, the serf's legal rights were not by any means always followed, especially since the judge in any legal dispute he might have would likely be his lord, who was also the person he'd most likely have a dispute with.
    , @Logan
    Something I've been interested in for some time is the effects of British conquest on India.

    There is no question that India fell far behind economically during the period of British rule, relative to Britain, Europe and USA. In 1600 India was probably more prosperous than Britain.

    But Indian scholars routinely claim that Britain looted India and that their rule led to an absolute decline in Indian prosperity, not just a relative one.

    Have so far been unable to find a book on the topic that appears to be interested in "just the facts," as every one I've looked at is pretty transparently interested in propping up the Leninist interpretation of events.

    Absolutely the nobles and rajahs took a major hit, but how did the common people fare over this period?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Logan
    Very unlikely. Is there any evidence, such as surviving examples of his communications with Lewis in Welsh? Any evidence at all other than some unsupported claim on the web?

    While Lewis was of half-Welsh ancestry, I'm unaware of any evidence at all he spoke the language.

    You have a fair point. This assertion is regularly made in Welsh print and media when discussing Welsh involvement in the USA. I have never actually seen a pointer to actual evidence. I now that there is a quote from Jefferson placing his mother in Snowdonia in North Wales, then a wholly Welsh speaking area and mostly monoglot at that. It would be improbable that he did not speak it. But proof …

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  • @Anonymous
    Jefferson was not Anglo-Saxon. His Y chromosome haplogroup and patriline are African or Semitic:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6332545.stm

    In the 1990s, DNA was taken from male relatives of Jefferson to see if he fathered a son with one of his slaves.

    They found the president had a rare genetic signature found mainly in the Middle East and Africa, calling into question his claim of Welsh ancestry.
     

    More propaganda and lies.

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  • @anonymous-antiskynetist
    He was willing to share some of that good Anglo-Saxon DNA with the Africans via Sally Hemmings, mighty white of him as they say.

    Where is the real proof ,any.

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  • @Logan
    Very unlikely. Is there any evidence, such as surviving examples of his communications with Lewis in Welsh? Any evidence at all other than some unsupported claim on the web?

    While Lewis was of half-Welsh ancestry, I'm unaware of any evidence at all he spoke the language.

    Believing in an Anglo-Saxon utopia destroyed by the Norman Conquest requires a pretty complete ignorance of what Anglo-Saxon society was actually like.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    Rather like most ex colonies claiming that their countries were Other Edens before colonisation.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Philip Owen
    Jefferson was a Welsh speaker. He corresponded in Welsh with Lewis (of Lewis & Clarke) for the sake of greater security. He reckoned his ancestry from North Wales. Not entirely Anglo Saxon then.

    Very unlikely. Is there any evidence, such as surviving examples of his communications with Lewis in Welsh? Any evidence at all other than some unsupported claim on the web?

    While Lewis was of half-Welsh ancestry, I’m unaware of any evidence at all he spoke the language.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Logan
    Believing in an Anglo-Saxon utopia destroyed by the Norman Conquest requires a pretty complete ignorance of what Anglo-Saxon society was actually like.
    , @Philip Owen
    You have a fair point. This assertion is regularly made in Welsh print and media when discussing Welsh involvement in the USA. I have never actually seen a pointer to actual evidence. I now that there is a quote from Jefferson placing his mother in Snowdonia in North Wales, then a wholly Welsh speaking area and mostly monoglot at that. It would be improbable that he did not speak it. But proof ...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    Problem lies in allowing the danger of being overrun by the Tribe . Rome was built by outsider and settlers But it faced destruction from the Tribe


    In 3 decades or less than that this Jewish tribe came to dominate both the European who once had organized the pogrom and made Holocaust possible. The tribe came to dominate USA – Canada-Australia who did not persecute them but who were religiously made out of same cloth that had persecuted the tribe for years . How did they do it?

    There is precedence to this development. After the temple was razed in 1is AD by Romans, the tribe secured the right of not paying religious services to Roman emperors as Gods , not making any offerings and keep the tribal rituals. Not only that despite close similarity and common linkage to Christianity , this tribe managed to portray Christianity as religion of atheism in the eyes of Rome. The tribes slept with the top notch Roman in military and administration, intermarried and few of them even were queens. The tribes kept on piling up pressure ( modern day Islamophobia created by same tribe ) against Christian. They even blamed Pilate for the devastation when it was the tribe who instigated and pressurized the romans to go after Jesus .

    The tribes brought diversity and poor immigrants and rootless unassimilated to the empire and created fissures . Constantine was forced to address it because it was threatening the existence of the empire.

    It seems America has to impose some universal values to transcend the deepening schism and protect itself from destruction.

    The tribes brought diversity and poor immigrants and rootless unassimilated to the empire and created fissures . Constantine was forced to address it because it was threatening the existence of the empire.

    And the Tribe was ejected from the heart. There was no other nation willing to roll the dice anymore…

    I’ve always wondered, were they gunning for extinction, on account of greed, and hate…

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • anon • Disclaimer says:

    Problem lies in allowing the danger of being overrun by the Tribe . Rome was built by outsider and settlers But it faced destruction from the Tribe

    In 3 decades or less than that this Jewish tribe came to dominate both the European who once had organized the pogrom and made Holocaust possible. The tribe came to dominate USA – Canada-Australia who did not persecute them but who were religiously made out of same cloth that had persecuted the tribe for years . How did they do it?

    There is precedence to this development. After the temple was razed in 1is AD by Romans, the tribe secured the right of not paying religious services to Roman emperors as Gods , not making any offerings and keep the tribal rituals. Not only that despite close similarity and common linkage to Christianity , this tribe managed to portray Christianity as religion of atheism in the eyes of Rome. The tribes slept with the top notch Roman in military and administration, intermarried and few of them even were queens. The tribes kept on piling up pressure ( modern day Islamophobia created by same tribe ) against Christian. They even blamed Pilate for the devastation when it was the tribe who instigated and pressurized the romans to go after Jesus .

    The tribes brought diversity and poor immigrants and rootless unassimilated to the empire and created fissures . Constantine was forced to address it because it was threatening the existence of the empire.

    It seems America has to impose some universal values to transcend the deepening schism and protect itself from destruction.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    The tribes brought diversity and poor immigrants and rootless unassimilated to the empire and created fissures . Constantine was forced to address it because it was threatening the existence of the empire.
     
    And the Tribe was ejected from the heart. There was no other nation willing to roll the dice anymore...

    I've always wondered, were they gunning for extinction, on account of greed, and hate...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Jefferson was not Anglo-Saxon. His Y chromosome haplogroup and patriline are African or Semitic:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6332545.stm

    In the 1990s, DNA was taken from male relatives of Jefferson to see if he fathered a son with one of his slaves.

    They found the president had a rare genetic signature found mainly in the Middle East and Africa, calling into question his claim of Welsh ancestry.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DinduNuffins
    More propaganda and lies.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “By “all men are created equal,” moreover, Jefferson, who also wrote in praise of a “Natural Aristocracy,” was certainly not implying that all men were similarly endowed.”

    Indeed, all men regardless of race, ethnicity, or religion were similarly endowed with political rights. Notice he did not include women. He believed at that time they should remain home, take care of kids, and certainly not be in a trade or profession. How do you rectify his meaning with your own current position in life?

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  • It’s fair to say TJ went back and forth on the British. In one missive, he might proudly declare America to be British America. In another, he’d point out that the Brits were a monstrous threat. “I considered the British as our natural enemies, and as the only nation on earth who wished us ill from the bottom of their souls” Jefferson wrote in 1787. In 1816, he wrote that Americans have “more reason to hate (Britain) than any nation on earth.” As for the Saxons, they were Germans, so really, TJ was pining for the days when Germany was making Britain Great Again.

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  • No, this doesn’t work. Parliament was a natural development from the tension between smaller powers and the King. Jefferson et al got rid of natural government and imposed an anti-scientific theory of equality plus an unnatural dictatorial structure.

    In the parliamentary system the PM grows out of a current majority. He can be instantly replaced by the majority if he fails, and a strong minority can call a new election. Parliaments take both of these steps often, which makes them VASTLY more adaptable to new circumstances than our system.

    Separating the executive and judiciary may have seemed like a good theory, but turned out to be bad practice. The judiciary deleted the whole Constitution in 1803, and executives are effectively unremovable. A bad or inappropriate president has four years to do damage.

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  • @anonymous-antiskynetist
    He was willing to share some of that good Anglo-Saxon DNA with the Africans via Sally Hemmings, mighty white of him as they say.

    anonymous-antiskynetist:

    It has not been demonstrated that Thomas Jefferson consorted with Sally Hemmings.

    DNA evidence only indicates that it was someone from the Jefferson family!

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  • He was willing to share some of that good Anglo-Saxon DNA with the Africans via Sally Hemmings, mighty white of him as they say.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    anonymous-antiskynetist:

    It has not been demonstrated that Thomas Jefferson consorted with Sally Hemmings.

    DNA evidence only indicates that it was someone from the Jefferson family!
    , @dinduNuffins
    Where is the real proof ,any.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Jefferson was a Welsh speaker. He corresponded in Welsh with Lewis (of Lewis & Clarke) for the sake of greater security. He reckoned his ancestry from North Wales. Not entirely Anglo Saxon then.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Logan
    Very unlikely. Is there any evidence, such as surviving examples of his communications with Lewis in Welsh? Any evidence at all other than some unsupported claim on the web?

    While Lewis was of half-Welsh ancestry, I'm unaware of any evidence at all he spoke the language.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Jefferson took a few liberties in describing the ancient English constitutional order he was seeking to uphold… many of the most outrageous breaches of law by the king had been or were being worked through by the English courts by the time of the American Revolution. There is a lot of credence to the contention that the Founding Fathers ginned up charges to take a bigger piece of the action for themselves. But so what? We managed to spin the story to have much more universal appeal than the Brits … good for us.

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  • If the reader will permit me this once a somewhat personal and idiosyncratic essay–heretofore I have never been either personal or idiosyncratic–I will promise never to do it again. No one can doubt the reliability of my promises. I have played in writing over the years with my birth in West Virginia and my consequent...
  • @Once removed hillbilly
    Without those "wild and barbaric Scots-Irish", the Revolutionary War would have been lost.

    “Without those “wild and barbaric Scots-Irish”, the Revolutionary War would have been lost.”

    And every other war we won. And about half our Presidents would never have been born. When was the last war we won??? WW2 I believe.

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  • @emptyjunk
    Most enjoyable. Have you the wrong William though? Would it not be William (of Normandy) the Conqueror rather than William of Orange. The former confers a distinct social éclat, the latter a hint of the parvenu. Not that we here in England are remotely snobbish.

    I noticed that too. William of Orange conquered England in 1688 and the people he brought with him would have been from the Netherlands and present day Germany and Belgium, not France.

    But the history of the Venables Fred mentioned would really not have been written down in pre 1066 France and Normandy. Only 10,000 came with William of Normandy and 5,000 of that group weren’t Normans actually revanchist Bretons who fled England 500 years earlier when the Saxons conquered it.

    It’s an interesting story I enjoyed it.

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    The accounts of the era didn't seem to make it particularly disease ridden. I imagine at least some of the vectors of illness, such as widespread rodent infestation, were not as common in the agrarian South.

    Canada and the northern now US colonies were pretty much disease and filth free. The water unlike in Europe where it had been contaminated by animal and human waste for centuries was clean and drinkable. Food was abundant. The New Englanders could send the kids out to the lobster pots and they would come home with a 6 ft lobster. There were of course deer in abundance in some areas. The Spanish deposited some pigs in Florida in the early 1500s and within a century they were all over.

    Few people and no old outhouses meant colonial America was clean which meant little disease. New England Mothers often had 10 or more children who all lived and didn’t kill the Moms either. All that abundant protein meant a generous supply of breast milk.

    The colonials in the country often built their homes instead of moving into a 200 year old house full of TB, fleas, bedbugs, lice etc. The rural living helped a lot too as people were not crowded into towns where disease could spread.

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  • @Corvinus
    "So you’re saying HBD analysis doesn’t have predictive power?"

    In what regard?

    Are you saying it in some meaningful regard?

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  • And you buggered off to Mexico and abandoned your roots. Its a damn shame Fred.

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  • @Negrolphin Pool
    So you're saying HBD analysis doesn't have predictive power?

    “So you’re saying HBD analysis doesn’t have predictive power?”

    In what regard?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Are you saying it in some meaningful regard?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • After this, I am almost tempted to google fred.

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    Virginia is home to more U.S. Presidents than any other state and Tom Wolfe seems pretty prominent to me.

    but can’t seem to put a Virginian in the Governor’s Mansion to save their ass.

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  • @Thomas O. Meehan
    The Southern secessionist states simply demanded their right to withdraw from the Union, nothing more. Lincoln maneuvered them in a most dishonorable way into firing on Ft. Sumpter, but remember, federal Ft. Sumpter was situated in a southern harbor and rightfully belonged to the State of South Carolina. Until the Ghettysberg campaign the Confederacy never attempted to invade Union territory. (forays into Maryland are arguable as Lincoln took over the Maryland Government for fear that they would in fact secede) The South fought an almost purely defensive war, was invaded and was subject to a naval blockade.

    Before the Civil War, the United States was a republic composed of free states. The federal system now operates rather like the mafia, once in, you can never leave.

    Look away, look away, and avert your eyes from this nonsense.

    The slave holding aristocracy gave us the Civil War and the War Between the States.

    That said, I support the celebration of every Confederate holiday, including Robert E. Lee’s horse’s birthday. As part of said celebrations, I think that we need to exhume the body of one fire-eater each and every holiday and hang the SOB and then rebury him. (With full and proper respect of course.)

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  • @Ali Choudhury
    As far as I am aware, the south wanted the war and fired the first shots at Fort Sumter. The war didn't start because of an abolitionist drive but because the south could not abide the prospect of slavery being banned in new entrants to the union. The southern planter class could have shown some wisdom and let well enough alone but elected for secession, war and extinction instead.

    The Southern secessionist states simply demanded their right to withdraw from the Union, nothing more. Lincoln maneuvered them in a most dishonorable way into firing on Ft. Sumpter, but remember, federal Ft. Sumpter was situated in a southern harbor and rightfully belonged to the State of South Carolina. Until the Ghettysberg campaign the Confederacy never attempted to invade Union territory. (forays into Maryland are arguable as Lincoln took over the Maryland Government for fear that they would in fact secede) The South fought an almost purely defensive war, was invaded and was subject to a naval blockade.

    Before the Civil War, the United States was a republic composed of free states. The federal system now operates rather like the mafia, once in, you can never leave.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Look away, look away, and avert your eyes from this nonsense.

    The slave holding aristocracy gave us the Civil War and the War Between the States.

    That said, I support the celebration of every Confederate holiday, including Robert E. Lee's horse's birthday. As part of said celebrations, I think that we need to exhume the body of one fire-eater each and every holiday and hang the SOB and then rebury him. (With full and proper respect of course.)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Corvinus
    "Reality is extreme. Unfortunately, there’s this little thing about science in that it actually has predictive potential and can be used effectively as a tool."

    Science that has become politicized. You ought to follow Vox Day's scientody and scientistry argument. The same "evidence" used 100 years ago is now dressed up to serve the masters of HBD. Again, few white people care about this pie in the sky, cultist philosophy.

    So you’re saying HBD analysis doesn’t have predictive power?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "So you’re saying HBD analysis doesn’t have predictive power?"

    In what regard?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Frederick Reed
    Someone pointed out that I wrote William of Orange when I meant the William of 1066. Oops. I am reading Marlborough: His life and Times as well as a book on William and Mary and apparently suffered brainlock. Apologies. Apologies.

    You’re taking things too personally, Fred:

    Most readers will not care where I was born, and a fair few clearly wish that I hadn’t been. Well, this isn’t your day.

    The main way you’d know how your readers feel is from reading comments below your articles. A few week’s back, when you posted your defense of illegal breaking and entering by 25-40 million Mexicans and of all things Mexican (it seemed), you got a lot of comments that were not in agreement with you, and rightfully so. In the PeakStupidity blog, here, well before your column, I gave my take on the matter – feel free to correct me, especially if you think that the US dollar will be King through the rest of your lifetime.

    That’s one thing, but it does not mean I don’t enjoy the rest of your writing, or wish you hadn’t been born. Don’t be ridiculous. With that said, I’ll enjoy this article – I normally read all comments, and I am familiar with Bluefield VA/WVa, and all of the great land, but I won’t get into all the details that are being argued about – I don’t think any of this is as important as the ruination of our country (lots of ways, but the Mex. invasion sure ain’t gonna help, Fred.)

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  • @Expletive Deleted
    El Tel; potentially the greatest England manager of all time, in charge of the Golden Generation. But he never got picked again after his first run out. " .. came under intense scrutiny and censure in the media for his business dealings, which led MP Kate Hoey to state in Parliament that Venables was unfit for the post of national team manager .."
    A very obvious wide boy and chancer, in the kindest analysis. But he did have the London press on his side. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Venables
    Still does. even though he's in his 70s.

    I remember reading an interview with Terry Venables – I can’t find it online – where he described how he emphasised his cockney accent when talking to posh people, and spoke posher when talking to working class people. I guess this gave him some advantage – appearing earthy and authentic to the upper orders, and authoritative to the lower orders.

    Looks like the Venables are perennial class chameleons.

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  • Without those “wild and barbaric Scots-Irish”, the Revolutionary War would have been lost.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    "Without those “wild and barbaric Scots-Irish”, the Revolutionary War would have been lost."

    And every other war we won. And about half our Presidents would never have been born. When was the last war we won??? WW2 I believe.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • My ancestors also came from Tidewater Va. Googling our names I see that my people mixed it up with your people. Would not be surprised if we had a common ancestor around 1700. We should do lunch sometime.

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  • @Daniel Chieh

    But you just proved my point…the average white American has not heard of, nor is concerned about, HBD, in part because of its extremist nature. They have other pressing matters to attend to.
     
    Reality is extreme. Unfortunately, there's this little thing about science in that it actually has predictive potential and can be used effectively as a tool.

    There's a reason why educated leftists radicalize rather than try to deny the veracity of its claims.

    “Reality is extreme. Unfortunately, there’s this little thing about science in that it actually has predictive potential and can be used effectively as a tool.”

    Science that has become politicized. You ought to follow Vox Day’s scientody and scientistry argument. The same “evidence” used 100 years ago is now dressed up to serve the masters of HBD. Again, few white people care about this pie in the sky, cultist philosophy.

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    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool
    So you're saying HBD analysis doesn't have predictive power?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Corvinus
    "I’ve seen it common even among the leftist educated circles I am in. It mostly just provokes even more radical leftism, but the knowledge is indeed getting more common."

    It is becoming known to leftist educated circles because of Alt Right promotion of HBD, which in turn provokes both the Coalition of the Fringes.

    "The “average white American” mostly cares about McDonalds, so that is a meaningless comparison."

    How elitist of you to say. But you just proved my point...the average white American has not heard of, nor is concerned about, HBD, in part because of its extremist nature. They have other pressing matters to attend to.

    But you just proved my point…the average white American has not heard of, nor is concerned about, HBD, in part because of its extremist nature. They have other pressing matters to attend to.

    Reality is extreme. Unfortunately, there’s this little thing about science in that it actually has predictive potential and can be used effectively as a tool.

    There’s a reason why educated leftists radicalize rather than try to deny the veracity of its claims.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Reality is extreme. Unfortunately, there’s this little thing about science in that it actually has predictive potential and can be used effectively as a tool."

    Science that has become politicized. You ought to follow Vox Day's scientody and scientistry argument. The same "evidence" used 100 years ago is now dressed up to serve the masters of HBD. Again, few white people care about this pie in the sky, cultist philosophy.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Intelligent Dasein
    Thank you very much for sharing that. There are some definite similarities there with my own family history.

    Ethnic Czechs from the Sudetenland, my mother's people came to America around 1890. Definitely working class, but not particularly religious and somewhat prone to alcoholism. They nevertheless caught the rising tide of the American century and managed to do alright for themselves. My great-grandfather owned his own business which my grandfather inherited and later sold. Among my parents' generation, some did alright and some not. Several of my aunts and uncles did relatively well (e.g. they at least managed to maintain middle class status); unfortunately my own parents were among the ones who made appallingly bad decisions and sent the family downhill to its ruin.

    I have managed to hang on this long due to sheer dint of will, uncommon talents, my rediscovery of religion, my capacity for sacrifice, and constant self-education and self-red-pilling. However, I am barely middle class and scarcely have an outlet for my finer capabilities. I definitely have not achieved what I am capable of.

    To live out the sickness of the times in one's own being is a tragic fate indeed. The general downward trend, as it is so often discussed, is an aggregate of sociometric data that can be observed and weighed in the abstract by people in positions of comfort, but for me it is a daily struggle. I am one of the concrete individuals in whom the general trend is manifested. Every day I must fight the battle for survival (and heroic have been my efforts) but behind it all I know this doom has been laid upon me. I shall never enter the promised land.

    I am consoled by the fact that before the face of God I shall be absolved for some of my failures to thrive. God will judge me fairly, taking my circumstances and opportunities into account. In the life to come, my resurrected body will be restored to that place of dignity of which my soul is worthy. In the meantime, however, in this world, there are only facts; only success and failure. There is no such thing natural indemnification for others' lack of chivalry. It is quite the opposite in fact; the sons pay a heavy price for the sins of their fathers. The world does not care why you're weak---that your family betrayed you, that your culture didn't nourish you, that you are the uncared for, the unloved, the unwanted---only that you're weak. The jackals stalk the wounded lion, and the flies bite at his eyes. These facts are what make family, culture, and the care of one's own into the vitally important facts that they are. To reject them is to consign the future to the flames. Without them there is nothing between you and the abyss.

    You should definitely write more. You have a poetry to your prose.

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  • @Intelligent Dasein
    Thank you very much for sharing that. There are some definite similarities there with my own family history.

    Ethnic Czechs from the Sudetenland, my mother's people came to America around 1890. Definitely working class, but not particularly religious and somewhat prone to alcoholism. They nevertheless caught the rising tide of the American century and managed to do alright for themselves. My great-grandfather owned his own business which my grandfather inherited and later sold. Among my parents' generation, some did alright and some not. Several of my aunts and uncles did relatively well (e.g. they at least managed to maintain middle class status); unfortunately my own parents were among the ones who made appallingly bad decisions and sent the family downhill to its ruin.

    I have managed to hang on this long due to sheer dint of will, uncommon talents, my rediscovery of religion, my capacity for sacrifice, and constant self-education and self-red-pilling. However, I am barely middle class and scarcely have an outlet for my finer capabilities. I definitely have not achieved what I am capable of.

    To live out the sickness of the times in one's own being is a tragic fate indeed. The general downward trend, as it is so often discussed, is an aggregate of sociometric data that can be observed and weighed in the abstract by people in positions of comfort, but for me it is a daily struggle. I am one of the concrete individuals in whom the general trend is manifested. Every day I must fight the battle for survival (and heroic have been my efforts) but behind it all I know this doom has been laid upon me. I shall never enter the promised land.

    I am consoled by the fact that before the face of God I shall be absolved for some of my failures to thrive. God will judge me fairly, taking my circumstances and opportunities into account. In the life to come, my resurrected body will be restored to that place of dignity of which my soul is worthy. In the meantime, however, in this world, there are only facts; only success and failure. There is no such thing natural indemnification for others' lack of chivalry. It is quite the opposite in fact; the sons pay a heavy price for the sins of their fathers. The world does not care why you're weak---that your family betrayed you, that your culture didn't nourish you, that you are the uncared for, the unloved, the unwanted---only that you're weak. The jackals stalk the wounded lion, and the flies bite at his eyes. These facts are what make family, culture, and the care of one's own into the vitally important facts that they are. To reject them is to consign the future to the flames. Without them there is nothing between you and the abyss.

    “Ethnic Czechs from the Sudetenland, my mother’s people came to America around 1890. Definitely working class, but not particularly religious and somewhat prone to alcoholism.”

    And, according to nativists at that time, they were incapable of becoming an American. So, how were nativists wrong?

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    I've seen it common even among the leftist educated circles I am in. It mostly just provokes even more radical leftism, but the knowledge is indeed getting more common.

    The "average white American" mostly cares about McDonalds, so that is a meaningless comparison.

    “I’ve seen it common even among the leftist educated circles I am in. It mostly just provokes even more radical leftism, but the knowledge is indeed getting more common.”

    It is becoming known to leftist educated circles because of Alt Right promotion of HBD, which in turn provokes both the Coalition of the Fringes.

    “The “average white American” mostly cares about McDonalds, so that is a meaningless comparison.”

    How elitist of you to say. But you just proved my point…the average white American has not heard of, nor is concerned about, HBD, in part because of its extremist nature. They have other pressing matters to attend to.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    But you just proved my point…the average white American has not heard of, nor is concerned about, HBD, in part because of its extremist nature. They have other pressing matters to attend to.
     
    Reality is extreme. Unfortunately, there's this little thing about science in that it actually has predictive potential and can be used effectively as a tool.

    There's a reason why educated leftists radicalize rather than try to deny the veracity of its claims.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @joeyjoejoe
    I'll be vague, but give my own family story. I think it would be interesting in that it illustrates exactly what happened-not to overachievers in 1790, but to folks over the last 100 years.

    Immigrants to America around 1900. Probably not peasants, but certainly lower middle class or upper working class. Essentially first generation of Americans were blue collar folks who were religious and worked hard. WWII generation (though missed WWII for health related reasons). Not perfect, not perfectly happy. But the family stuck together (i.e. no divorce, siblings lived near each other, and were close when they died in their 80's, in the ethnic neighborhood they married in in their 20's, etc) , the kids went to college (first generation to do so), one could say the kids achieved what they were capable of.

    But those kids were the baby boomers or so. Matured in the 50's young adults in the 60's, young middle age in the 70's. Thus, they weren't destroyed by the 60's; they were the people for whom we read 'the 60's reached middle America in the 70's.'

    Thus they did two things. Got into drugs to varying degrees (not enough to destroy them, but enough to set them back), and failed to teach their own children (religion, morals, values).

    By and large their own children (i.e. the first generation's grandchildren) had varying degrees of success. Some college, some not. Several divorces. Some drugs, some not. Folks have started falling through the cracks. People are not 'achieving what they were capable of.' Society was failing them, and you could say some chose well, some poorly-and they paid for their choices.

    Next generation (the great grandchildren). No marriages. Several kids, of several parents. No college-even difficulty in finishing high school. They aren't 'achieving what they are capable of.' They aren't even achieving minimal family formation. They are sinking back into the morass of the lower class or peasantry. They are reasonably bright (Their parents and grandparents include professionals, doctors, and so on). They are simply products of their environment.

    So my family is a bell curve, straddling the 20th century.
    I'm guessing there aren't a lot of families like Fred's (Tidewater aristocracy). But, given immigration in 1880-1920, there are a whole lot of families like mine. You can see the century-long promise of America opening and closing through the performance of the people, over 4 generations of the 20th century.

    joeyjoejoe

    Thank you very much for sharing that. There are some definite similarities there with my own family history.

    Ethnic Czechs from the Sudetenland, my mother’s people came to America around 1890. Definitely working class, but not particularly religious and somewhat prone to alcoholism. They nevertheless caught the rising tide of the American century and managed to do alright for themselves. My great-grandfather owned his own business which my grandfather inherited and later sold. Among my parents’ generation, some did alright and some not. Several of my aunts and uncles did relatively well (e.g. they at least managed to maintain middle class status); unfortunately my own parents were among the ones who made appallingly bad decisions and sent the family downhill to its ruin.

    I have managed to hang on this long due to sheer dint of will, uncommon talents, my rediscovery of religion, my capacity for sacrifice, and constant self-education and self-red-pilling. However, I am barely middle class and scarcely have an outlet for my finer capabilities. I definitely have not achieved what I am capable of.

    To live out the sickness of the times in one’s own being is a tragic fate indeed. The general downward trend, as it is so often discussed, is an aggregate of sociometric data that can be observed and weighed in the abstract by people in positions of comfort, but for me it is a daily struggle. I am one of the concrete individuals in whom the general trend is manifested. Every day I must fight the battle for survival (and heroic have been my efforts) but behind it all I know this doom has been laid upon me. I shall never enter the promised land.

    I am consoled by the fact that before the face of God I shall be absolved for some of my failures to thrive. God will judge me fairly, taking my circumstances and opportunities into account. In the life to come, my resurrected body will be restored to that place of dignity of which my soul is worthy. In the meantime, however, in this world, there are only facts; only success and failure. There is no such thing natural indemnification for others’ lack of chivalry. It is quite the opposite in fact; the sons pay a heavy price for the sins of their fathers. The world does not care why you’re weak—that your family betrayed you, that your culture didn’t nourish you, that you are the uncared for, the unloved, the unwanted—only that you’re weak. The jackals stalk the wounded lion, and the flies bite at his eyes. These facts are what make family, culture, and the care of one’s own into the vitally important facts that they are. To reject them is to consign the future to the flames. Without them there is nothing between you and the abyss.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Ethnic Czechs from the Sudetenland, my mother’s people came to America around 1890. Definitely working class, but not particularly religious and somewhat prone to alcoholism."

    And, according to nativists at that time, they were incapable of becoming an American. So, how were nativists wrong?

    , @Daniel Chieh
    You should definitely write more. You have a poetry to your prose.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Someone pointed out that I wrote William of Orange when I meant the William of 1066. Oops. I am reading Marlborough: His life and Times as well as a book on William and Mary and apparently suffered brainlock. Apologies. Apologies.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    You're taking things too personally, Fred:

    Most readers will not care where I was born, and a fair few clearly wish that I hadn’t been. Well, this isn’t your day.
     
    The main way you'd know how your readers feel is from reading comments below your articles. A few week's back, when you posted your defense of illegal breaking and entering by 25-40 million Mexicans and of all things Mexican (it seemed), you got a lot of comments that were not in agreement with you, and rightfully so. In the PeakStupidity blog, here, well before your column, I gave my take on the matter - feel free to correct me, especially if you think that the US dollar will be King through the rest of your lifetime.

    That's one thing, but it does not mean I don't enjoy the rest of your writing, or wish you hadn't been born. Don't be ridiculous. With that said, I'll enjoy this article - I normally read all comments, and I am familiar with Bluefield VA/WVa, and all of the great land, but I won't get into all the details that are being argued about - I don't think any of this is as important as the ruination of our country (lots of ways, but the Mex. invasion sure ain't gonna help, Fred.)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Yes, one looks like an ancestor, but how many genes can have been transmitted from someone who was one’s sixty-fourth part ancestor. Not many, but if the family had been living in the same area for a long time and mating with others from the same area, there must have been quite an overlappage of genes.

    Actor Richard Burton came from South Wales. Many years ago I found myself at a bus station cafe in the early hours of the morning in Swansea, and was surprised to see that nearly all the bus drivers looked like Richard Burton or Anthony Hopkins.

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  • @iffen
    The accounts of the era didn’t seem to make it particularly disease ridden.

    http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/28/6/1734.full

    Thank you, iffen. It’s always striking how little many Americans know about their own country’s history. Not to know that the South was handicapped by disease is woeful ignorance. The trouble is that the ones with most need to read your link probably won’t.

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  • @AnonymousP
    "Lincoln is honored as one of our greatest Presidents"

    Oh! Using Foreign mercenaries to subdue the people was condemned when George III did it.

    I wonder why Lincoln gets a free pass.

    Lincoln cause the deaths of around 660,000 servicemen in this war. Maybe 800,000 died, though

    There can be no exact count of the women and children of the South who were burned out of homes & their food destroyed by Sherman, Sheridan & Custer in the Shenandoah Valley , Georgia and elsewhere.

    Mercenaries have a bad press these days, not so much in those days.

    Warrior was an honored profession then.

    I think there was enough killing and dead on both sides to satisfy everyone for a while.

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  • @Ali Choudhury
    As far as I am aware, the south wanted the war and fired the first shots at Fort Sumter. The war didn't start because of an abolitionist drive but because the south could not abide the prospect of slavery being banned in new entrants to the union. The southern planter class could have shown some wisdom and let well enough alone but elected for secession, war and extinction instead.

    The war didn’t start because of an abolitionist drive

    Yes and no.

    Abolition was coming at some point in the near future. More than that, the political power of the South could only decrease. Even more importantly, the cotton/new slave states bubble was going to pop, because, as you pointed out, there was not going to be any new slave states.

    The slave aristocracy thought they might win, otherwise the end was in sight. It was the logical decision for them if all the killing didn’t put you off.

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  • So Fred´s family became a victim of the re-entry of the jews to Britain with Cromwell and then Charles II. Perhaps this explains why it was Charleston and Newport that became the major (jewish) slave-trading centers in the US rather than Virginia? Or Fred is nostalgic for the period when the Brits still had their independence from the corruption of the “city of london” and produced people like Newton and Shakespeare?

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  • @AnonymousP
    "Lincoln is honored as one of our greatest Presidents"

    Oh! Using Foreign mercenaries to subdue the people was condemned when George III did it.

    I wonder why Lincoln gets a free pass.

    Lincoln cause the deaths of around 660,000 servicemen in this war. Maybe 800,000 died, though

    There can be no exact count of the women and children of the South who were burned out of homes & their food destroyed by Sherman, Sheridan & Custer in the Shenandoah Valley , Georgia and elsewhere.

    As far as I am aware, the south wanted the war and fired the first shots at Fort Sumter. The war didn’t start because of an abolitionist drive but because the south could not abide the prospect of slavery being banned in new entrants to the union. The southern planter class could have shown some wisdom and let well enough alone but elected for secession, war and extinction instead.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    The war didn’t start because of an abolitionist drive

    Yes and no.

    Abolition was coming at some point in the near future. More than that, the political power of the South could only decrease. Even more importantly, the cotton/new slave states bubble was going to pop, because, as you pointed out, there was not going to be any new slave states.

    The slave aristocracy thought they might win, otherwise the end was in sight. It was the logical decision for them if all the killing didn't put you off.
    , @Thomas O. Meehan
    The Southern secessionist states simply demanded their right to withdraw from the Union, nothing more. Lincoln maneuvered them in a most dishonorable way into firing on Ft. Sumpter, but remember, federal Ft. Sumpter was situated in a southern harbor and rightfully belonged to the State of South Carolina. Until the Ghettysberg campaign the Confederacy never attempted to invade Union territory. (forays into Maryland are arguable as Lincoln took over the Maryland Government for fear that they would in fact secede) The South fought an almost purely defensive war, was invaded and was subject to a naval blockade.

    Before the Civil War, the United States was a republic composed of free states. The federal system now operates rather like the mafia, once in, you can never leave.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “Lincoln is honored as one of our greatest Presidents”

    Oh! Using Foreign mercenaries to subdue the people was condemned when George III did it.

    I wonder why Lincoln gets a free pass.

    Lincoln cause the deaths of around 660,000 servicemen in this war. Maybe 800,000 died, though

    There can be no exact count of the women and children of the South who were burned out of homes & their food destroyed by Sherman, Sheridan & Custer in the Shenandoah Valley , Georgia and elsewhere.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    As far as I am aware, the south wanted the war and fired the first shots at Fort Sumter. The war didn't start because of an abolitionist drive but because the south could not abide the prospect of slavery being banned in new entrants to the union. The southern planter class could have shown some wisdom and let well enough alone but elected for secession, war and extinction instead.
    , @iffen
    Mercenaries have a bad press these days, not so much in those days.

    Warrior was an honored profession then.

    I think there was enough killing and dead on both sides to satisfy everyone for a while.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @AnonymousP
    Actually, Lincoln raised around 2 million men.....and he recruited about half of those from Europe. His recruiting agents promised land to Germans, Irish, Italians, French if they survived the war. A lot didn't, of course. So, a good many non-Americans , by preponderance of numbers allied to the greater population and industrial might of the North, defeated the South.
    Using these foreign mercenaries ( cf. the "Hessians" of the Revolution era) made it easier for Lincoln to damp down the home-grown opposition to his war. That and locking up journalists and thousands of Northerners who opposed it.

    ..and he recruited about half of those from Europe.?

    Yes, and that doesn’t even count the effective use of some 200,000 freed slaves. Lincoln is honored as one of our greatest Presidents, and while most think that it is because he deserves credit for saving the Union and freeing the slaves, a close reading will show that his genius was indispensable to the actual strategy and pursuit of the war effort.

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  • @iffen
    The accounts of the era didn’t seem to make it particularly disease ridden.

    http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/28/6/1734.full

    Actually, Lincoln raised around 2 million men…..and he recruited about half of those from Europe. His recruiting agents promised land to Germans, Irish, Italians, French if they survived the war. A lot didn’t, of course. So, a good many non-Americans , by preponderance of numbers allied to the greater population and industrial might of the North, defeated the South.
    Using these foreign mercenaries ( cf. the “Hessians” of the Revolution era) made it easier for Lincoln to damp down the home-grown opposition to his war. That and locking up journalists and thousands of Northerners who opposed it.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    ..and he recruited about half of those from Europe.?

    Yes, and that doesn't even count the effective use of some 200,000 freed slaves. Lincoln is honored as one of our greatest Presidents, and while most think that it is because he deserves credit for saving the Union and freeing the slaves, a close reading will show that his genius was indispensable to the actual strategy and pursuit of the war effort.

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  • Fine forebears. It is a pity they were parties to insurrection against the first mass democracy on Earth, in favour of a form of human bondage that no decent Christian could reasonably suppprt.

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  • @Warrington Faust
    Fred thank you for spreading the word about the Tidewater. I am also descend from two FFV families.

    My New England friends assume that we chowed down on hog's knuckles and are amazed that my grandmother played Brahms.

    Can you imagine any modern politician believably penning “We mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor,”

    “(…) My New England friends … ”

    That’s the problem: your having New England friends.

    (Just kidding).

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  • @Iberiano
    iffen, I would think quite a few. Scots-Irish fought on both sides, to be sure, but I would think that a large portion of the Northern officer corps were of strictly English (non-Saxon) stock. Union General Hooker's family had been in New England since the 1600s and were 100 percent English, which means, given immigration patterns, were likely of East Anglia/Mercia stock, vs. Wessex. However, his replacement at Gettysburg (Union Gen. Meade's family does appear to have been Saxon, from Somerset). Sedgewick's family was from Connecticut (from Cumbria, England originally). Howard's family were Anglo-Norman, etc etc.

    I think what's clear is (since surname's are only a small part of your genetic makup), if your family was in New England, they most likely were from England and most likely part of the Puritan, Quaker culture, versus the Anglican Saxons and Scots/Scots-Irish of the Tidewater area--which operated the coastal area down to Charleston, South Carolina (and Barbados). To be certain, there were Scots-Presbyterians on both sides (I would imagine more the Pennsylvania area, and what would become West Virginia).

    As Kevin McDonald notes, the Puritan Anglos, unlike their Saxon and Celtic cousins, were MUCH MORE willing to go fight and die for another tribe, than the later--out of a sense of (social) justice. Those Puritans, like many English, may have been somewhat mixed with Norman and Saxon (if not Welsh and Scottish blood), but culturally, they were egalitarians. The cavaliers were the fox-hunting English (largely Saxon) who GZF about fairness or equality, and wanted to preserve a quasi-feudal system.

    It would seem, as the Jackson, Carter and Knox families showed in our history, the Scots-Irish simply liked fighting. :)

    Scots/Scots-Irish of the Tidewater area–which operated the coastal area down to Charleston, South Carolina (and Barbados).

    No. Coastal Carolina was English, no Scotch-Irish, they would have been more attuned to the Cavaliers.

    the Scots-Irish simply liked fighting.

    Yes. My thought was that if you had Scotch-Irish on both sides, the officer corps could have carried the day.

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  • Fred writes well on this particular subject matter. In a previous life I travelled extensively in the Carolinas and Virginia whilst engaged in B to B merchantile commerce and also attended international trade shows. You learn a lot about peoples in that environment.

    My own origins are a mixture of the gentile English tobacco growers, disorderly Scots-Irish and industrious Germans. Unfortunately (or fortunately) my personality and MO were overly influenced by the Scots-Irish. (non-Hillbilly however– Robeson County, NC settlers– some rough ass people)

    I found SE Virginia and NE North Carolina Tidewater folk to be unreasonably prissy and formal beyond their own commercial importance to me or my competitors. (e.g. insist on a formal appointment for a sales call in some dried up pissant town like Emporia, VA or Henderson, NC that may, with any luck, have resulted in $1000.00 worth of gross commissionable business twice a year) In short, their pain exceeded their pleasure in terms of both human interaction enjoyment and income to me. Many colleagues in allied industries and even some of my competitors concurred with me.

    Only Charlotte, NC approached the level of futility experienced in the Tidewater area, but that’s another story with other pathologies.

    I soon learned to only deal with the aforementioned at trade shows on my terms in my exhibition booths and showrooms.

    It was far more lucrative and enjoyable to spend my sales call resources elsewhere.

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  • Iberiano [AKA "Scotty"] says:

    iffen, I would think quite a few. Scots-Irish fought on both sides, to be sure, but I would think that a large portion of the Northern officer corps were of strictly English (non-Saxon) stock. Union General Hooker’s family had been in New England since the 1600s and were 100 percent English, which means, given immigration patterns, were likely of East Anglia/Mercia stock, vs. Wessex. However, his replacement at Gettysburg (Union Gen. Meade’s family does appear to have been Saxon, from Somerset). Sedgewick’s family was from Connecticut (from Cumbria, England originally). Howard’s family were Anglo-Norman, etc etc.

    I think what’s clear is (since surname’s are only a small part of your genetic makup), if your family was in New England, they most likely were from England and most likely part of the Puritan, Quaker culture, versus the Anglican Saxons and Scots/Scots-Irish of the Tidewater area–which operated the coastal area down to Charleston, South Carolina (and Barbados). To be certain, there were Scots-Presbyterians on both sides (I would imagine more the Pennsylvania area, and what would become West Virginia).

    As Kevin McDonald notes, the Puritan Anglos, unlike their Saxon and Celtic cousins, were MUCH MORE willing to go fight and die for another tribe, than the later–out of a sense of (social) justice. Those Puritans, like many English, may have been somewhat mixed with Norman and Saxon (if not Welsh and Scottish blood), but culturally, they were egalitarians. The cavaliers were the fox-hunting English (largely Saxon) who GZF about fairness or equality, and wanted to preserve a quasi-feudal system.

    It would seem, as the Jackson, Carter and Knox families showed in our history, the Scots-Irish simply liked fighting. :)

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    • Replies: @iffen
    Scots/Scots-Irish of the Tidewater area–which operated the coastal area down to Charleston, South Carolina (and Barbados).

    No. Coastal Carolina was English, no Scotch-Irish, they would have been more attuned to the Cavaliers.

    the Scots-Irish simply liked fighting.

    Yes. My thought was that if you had Scotch-Irish on both sides, the officer corps could have carried the day.
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  • @Iberiano
    The Tidewater whites were largely of Saxon stock, while the Northeastern Whites were primarily Anglo, from Mercia/East Anglia and some from Northumbria (mixed with Picts and Scots). Despite being a Martial culture, the Saxons lost the wars in England and likewise, here in the states, even with the help of the Celts (primarily Scots-Irish, which means, a mix of Nordic/Viking for good measure).

    America may have been envisioned by the Anglo-Saxons, but it was enforced and fought for by my ancestors, the Scots-Irish.

    Scotch-Irish from Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana and Border States defeated the Scotch-Irish from the South and Border States. I wonder what percentage of the Union Officers were from Puritan stock.

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  • My most famous ancestor who lived in the tidewater was so aristocratic that he picked the wrong side of the American revolution and got his ass kicked out of here. I’m prouder of the one who was charged with treason for his failure to pay taxes to the crown on the rum he was smuggling.

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  • Iberiano [AKA "Scotty"] says:

    The Tidewater whites were largely of Saxon stock, while the Northeastern Whites were primarily Anglo, from Mercia/East Anglia and some from Northumbria (mixed with Picts and Scots). Despite being a Martial culture, the Saxons lost the wars in England and likewise, here in the states, even with the help of the Celts (primarily Scots-Irish, which means, a mix of Nordic/Viking for good measure).

    America may have been envisioned by the Anglo-Saxons, but it was enforced and fought for by my ancestors, the Scots-Irish.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    Scotch-Irish from Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana and Border States defeated the Scotch-Irish from the South and Border States. I wonder what percentage of the Union Officers were from Puritan stock.
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  • @Daniel Chieh
    The accounts of the era didn't seem to make it particularly disease ridden. I imagine at least some of the vectors of illness, such as widespread rodent infestation, were not as common in the agrarian South.

    The accounts of the era didn’t seem to make it particularly disease ridden.

    http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/28/6/1734.full

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    • Replies: @AnonymousP
    Actually, Lincoln raised around 2 million men.....and he recruited about half of those from Europe. His recruiting agents promised land to Germans, Irish, Italians, French if they survived the war. A lot didn't, of course. So, a good many non-Americans , by preponderance of numbers allied to the greater population and industrial might of the North, defeated the South.
    Using these foreign mercenaries ( cf. the "Hessians" of the Revolution era) made it easier for Lincoln to damp down the home-grown opposition to his war. That and locking up journalists and thousands of Northerners who opposed it.
    , @dearieme
    Thank you, iffen. It's always striking how little many Americans know about their own country's history. Not to know that the South was handicapped by disease is woeful ignorance. The trouble is that the ones with most need to read your link probably won't.
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  • “the clan came to England with William of Orange”

    In 1688?

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  • More from Vox Populi: “See, that’s precisely the problem, Fred. They’re not your children’s people. You’re the end of the line. Whatever comes after is not that pure Cavalier stock of the Virginia Tidewater of which you are so proud.

    Indeed, if my experience is any guide, people will very likely tell your grandchildren that they have no connection whatsoever to the Cavaliers and they are lying if they claim they do.”

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  • Vox Populi’s got your number this week Fred: “All that illustrious lineage, and now Fred is reduced to denying human biodiversity in defense of the members of La Raza Cosmica with whom he cohabitates. It rather reminds me of the women who are ferociously proud of their blue eyes and blonde hair raising their brown-eyed, black-haired children. They have proven themselves wholly unworthy of their heritage by virtue of failing to pass it on.”

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  • @Corvinus
    "(1) HBD (by any other name) is making a raging comeback and will serve as the belief-rationalization for a coming wave of social fragmenting that should make today’s headlines look like an Antebellum tea party."

    A raging comeback among the Alt Right crowd, to be certain. But not your average white American, who think that HBD is shorthand for Happy Birthday.

    I’ve seen it common even among the leftist educated circles I am in. It mostly just provokes even more radical leftism, but the knowledge is indeed getting more common.

    The “average white American” mostly cares about McDonalds, so that is a meaningless comparison.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "I’ve seen it common even among the leftist educated circles I am in. It mostly just provokes even more radical leftism, but the knowledge is indeed getting more common."

    It is becoming known to leftist educated circles because of Alt Right promotion of HBD, which in turn provokes both the Coalition of the Fringes.

    "The “average white American” mostly cares about McDonalds, so that is a meaningless comparison."

    How elitist of you to say. But you just proved my point...the average white American has not heard of, nor is concerned about, HBD, in part because of its extremist nature. They have other pressing matters to attend to.
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  • @anonymous
    Are whites of the tidewater (Virginia and Carolinas) as smart as whites in Mass and CT? It doesn't seem so based on the number of eminent people in the last 100 years. Why tidewater whites get dumber?

    Virginia is home to more U.S. Presidents than any other state and Tom Wolfe seems pretty prominent to me.

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    • Replies: @travell lyte
    but can't seem to put a Virginian in the Governor's Mansion to save their ass.
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  • I’ll be vague, but give my own family story. I think it would be interesting in that it illustrates exactly what happened-not to overachievers in 1790, but to folks over the last 100 years.

    Immigrants to America around 1900. Probably not peasants, but certainly lower middle class or upper working class. Essentially first generation of Americans were blue collar folks who were religious and worked hard. WWII generation (though missed WWII for health related reasons). Not perfect, not perfectly happy. But the family stuck together (i.e. no divorce, siblings lived near each other, and were close when they died in their 80′s, in the ethnic neighborhood they married in in their 20′s, etc) , the kids went to college (first generation to do so), one could say the kids achieved what they were capable of.

    But those kids were the baby boomers or so. Matured in the 50′s young adults in the 60′s, young middle age in the 70′s. Thus, they weren’t destroyed by the 60′s; they were the people for whom we read ‘the 60′s reached middle America in the 70′s.’

    Thus they did two things. Got into drugs to varying degrees (not enough to destroy them, but enough to set them back), and failed to teach their own children (religion, morals, values).

    By and large their own children (i.e. the first generation’s grandchildren) had varying degrees of success. Some college, some not. Several divorces. Some drugs, some not. Folks have started falling through the cracks. People are not ‘achieving what they were capable of.’ Society was failing them, and you could say some chose well, some poorly-and they paid for their choices.

    Next generation (the great grandchildren). No marriages. Several kids, of several parents. No college-even difficulty in finishing high school. They aren’t ‘achieving what they are capable of.’ They aren’t even achieving minimal family formation. They are sinking back into the morass of the lower class or peasantry. They are reasonably bright (Their parents and grandparents include professionals, doctors, and so on). They are simply products of their environment.

    So my family is a bell curve, straddling the 20th century.
    I’m guessing there aren’t a lot of families like Fred’s (Tidewater aristocracy). But, given immigration in 1880-1920, there are a whole lot of families like mine. You can see the century-long promise of America opening and closing through the performance of the people, over 4 generations of the 20th century.

    joeyjoejoe

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    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    Thank you very much for sharing that. There are some definite similarities there with my own family history.

    Ethnic Czechs from the Sudetenland, my mother's people came to America around 1890. Definitely working class, but not particularly religious and somewhat prone to alcoholism. They nevertheless caught the rising tide of the American century and managed to do alright for themselves. My great-grandfather owned his own business which my grandfather inherited and later sold. Among my parents' generation, some did alright and some not. Several of my aunts and uncles did relatively well (e.g. they at least managed to maintain middle class status); unfortunately my own parents were among the ones who made appallingly bad decisions and sent the family downhill to its ruin.

    I have managed to hang on this long due to sheer dint of will, uncommon talents, my rediscovery of religion, my capacity for sacrifice, and constant self-education and self-red-pilling. However, I am barely middle class and scarcely have an outlet for my finer capabilities. I definitely have not achieved what I am capable of.

    To live out the sickness of the times in one's own being is a tragic fate indeed. The general downward trend, as it is so often discussed, is an aggregate of sociometric data that can be observed and weighed in the abstract by people in positions of comfort, but for me it is a daily struggle. I am one of the concrete individuals in whom the general trend is manifested. Every day I must fight the battle for survival (and heroic have been my efforts) but behind it all I know this doom has been laid upon me. I shall never enter the promised land.

    I am consoled by the fact that before the face of God I shall be absolved for some of my failures to thrive. God will judge me fairly, taking my circumstances and opportunities into account. In the life to come, my resurrected body will be restored to that place of dignity of which my soul is worthy. In the meantime, however, in this world, there are only facts; only success and failure. There is no such thing natural indemnification for others' lack of chivalry. It is quite the opposite in fact; the sons pay a heavy price for the sins of their fathers. The world does not care why you're weak---that your family betrayed you, that your culture didn't nourish you, that you are the uncared for, the unloved, the unwanted---only that you're weak. The jackals stalk the wounded lion, and the flies bite at his eyes. These facts are what make family, culture, and the care of one's own into the vitally important facts that they are. To reject them is to consign the future to the flames. Without them there is nothing between you and the abyss.
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  • Are whites of the tidewater (Virginia and Carolinas) as smart as whites in Mass and CT? It doesn’t seem so based on the number of eminent people in the last 100 years. Why tidewater whites get dumber?

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Virginia is home to more U.S. Presidents than any other state and Tom Wolfe seems pretty prominent to me.
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  • “(1) HBD (by any other name) is making a raging comeback and will serve as the belief-rationalization for a coming wave of social fragmenting that should make today’s headlines look like an Antebellum tea party.”

    A raging comeback among the Alt Right crowd, to be certain. But not your average white American, who think that HBD is shorthand for Happy Birthday.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I've seen it common even among the leftist educated circles I am in. It mostly just provokes even more radical leftism, but the knowledge is indeed getting more common.

    The "average white American" mostly cares about McDonalds, so that is a meaningless comparison.
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  • @dearieme
    "a tranquility undisturbed by the stench and clamor of today": disease-ridden, though, wasn't it? Was that poo-in-the-water related? Or mainly slave-related? Or something else entirely?

    Just can’t resist turning something beautiful into something ugly!

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  • Is this a subtle troll-job on HBD? Or did Fred just upend 3/4rs of his recent rants?

    Two things about which I’m fairly confident:
    (1) HBD (by any other name) is making a raging comeback and will serve as the belief-rationalization for a coming wave of social fragmenting that should make today’s headlines look like an Antebellum tea party.
    (2) “Fake” is the meme that will label the slide down the Slope of Hope ahead. We’ll see “fake” applied to everything people recently embraced with both arms (and practically both legs.)
    Fake News
    Fake Americans
    Fake Political Reps
    Fake Foods
    Fake Medicines
    Fake Economists
    Fake Bankers
    Fake Bonds (and other IOU’s)*
    Fake Stock Markets
    Fake Judges
    Fake Pope
    Fake (fill in the blank)

    [* The Obama Administration's expropriation of GM bondholders in favor of the unions was radically one-upped by Schumer, Warren, Blumenthal and Feinstein in ripping off Puerto Rican muni bondholders to the tune of $70 billion, once again proving that the sanctity of contracts is up for sale in Washington DC. https://www.thecaribbeanradio.com/commentary-the-real-reason-new-york-us-attorney-preet-bharara-was-asked-to-resign/ ]

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  • Most enjoyable. Have you the wrong William though? Would it not be William (of Normandy) the Conqueror rather than William of Orange. The former confers a distinct social éclat, the latter a hint of the parvenu. Not that we here in England are remotely snobbish.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    I noticed that too. William of Orange conquered England in 1688 and the people he brought with him would have been from the Netherlands and present day Germany and Belgium, not France.

    But the history of the Venables Fred mentioned would really not have been written down in pre 1066 France and Normandy. Only 10,000 came with William of Normandy and 5,000 of that group weren't Normans actually revanchist Bretons who fled England 500 years earlier when the Saxons conquered it.

    It's an interesting story I enjoyed it.
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  • @anonymous
    Not to question your Tidewater pride, but wouldn't Bluefield General Hospital have been in Mercer County, WV?

    Fred is probably lying in this post. Nice catch.

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  • @bluedog
    How sick we have become when intelligence is gauged by how many insults one can give on any given article..

    Wat? It’s just what they’re like.
    Percy Reed is an ancient hero on the English side to this day. Betrayed by lesser men, in a world where lunatic violence was a chivalric virtue, and the true mark of a man.

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  • Not to question your Tidewater pride, but wouldn’t Bluefield General Hospital have been in Mercer County, WV?

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    • Replies: @Summer's eve.
    Fred is probably lying in this post. Nice catch.
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  • Here you go Fred. A proper Reed, captured in his natural environment. Not long after America was invented, either.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Parcy_Reed

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_JtBC4hvFQ

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  • @Expletive Deleted
    All the Reeds I know are unregenerate English savages from up by the Carter Bar. Otterburn way. Worse than Moscrops or Turnbulls for fighting and turbulence, to this day.
    [NB! not "Reids", they're Scots, and foreign].
    Still deadly feu'd with the Halls, Robsons, Ell'ots, Kerrs, Charltons etc. Hide the knives, Betty, Lord Percy's grieve is coming to dinner.
    I suppose you people call them "Scots-Irish". Well they're not. They just ended up that way, due to being a tad "antisocial", even by medieval standards.

    How sick we have become when intelligence is gauged by how many insults one can give on any given article..

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    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted
    Wat? It's just what they're like.
    Percy Reed is an ancient hero on the English side to this day. Betrayed by lesser men, in a world where lunatic violence was a chivalric virtue, and the true mark of a man.
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  • All the Reeds I know are unregenerate English savages from up by the Carter Bar. Otterburn way. Worse than Moscrops or Turnbulls for fighting and turbulence, to this day.
    [NB! not "Reids", they're Scots, and foreign].
    Still deadly feu’d with the Halls, Robsons, Ell’ots, Kerrs, Charltons etc. Hide the knives, Betty, Lord Percy’s grieve is coming to dinner.
    I suppose you people call them “Scots-Irish”. Well they’re not. They just ended up that way, due to being a tad “antisocial”, even by medieval standards.

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    • Replies: @bluedog
    How sick we have become when intelligence is gauged by how many insults one can give on any given article..
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  • El Tel; potentially the greatest England manager of all time, in charge of the Golden Generation. But he never got picked again after his first run out. ” .. came under intense scrutiny and censure in the media for his business dealings, which led MP Kate Hoey to state in Parliament that Venables was unfit for the post of national team manager ..”
    A very obvious wide boy and chancer, in the kindest analysis. But he did have the London press on his side. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Venables
    Still does. even though he’s in his 70s.

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    • Replies: @TelfoedJohn
    I remember reading an interview with Terry Venables - I can't find it online - where he described how he emphasised his cockney accent when talking to posh people, and spoke posher when talking to working class people. I guess this gave him some advantage - appearing earthy and authentic to the upper orders, and authoritative to the lower orders.

    Looks like the Venables are perennial class chameleons.
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  • @dearieme
    "a tranquility undisturbed by the stench and clamor of today": disease-ridden, though, wasn't it? Was that poo-in-the-water related? Or mainly slave-related? Or something else entirely?

    Fred thank you for spreading the word about the Tidewater. I am also descend from two FFV families.

    My New England friends assume that we chowed down on hog’s knuckles and are amazed that my grandmother played Brahms.

    Can you imagine any modern politician believably penning “We mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor,”

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    • Replies: @Montañés
    "(...) My New England friends ... "

    That's the problem: your having New England friends.

    (Just kidding).
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  • A subject other than the normal one of mediocrity and the mankind’s lowest common denominator?
    The horror!

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  • I understand where you are coming from. My father’s family is similar. I got told once by my aunt that I should have done something because it was expected. Her children are majority university professors, while the only thing I did right was to master two foreign languages albeit with an accent, including our mostly forgotten family’s ancestral tongue, and be able to survive in three others.

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  • @dearieme
    "a tranquility undisturbed by the stench and clamor of today": disease-ridden, though, wasn't it? Was that poo-in-the-water related? Or mainly slave-related? Or something else entirely?

    The accounts of the era didn’t seem to make it particularly disease ridden. I imagine at least some of the vectors of illness, such as widespread rodent infestation, were not as common in the agrarian South.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    The accounts of the era didn’t seem to make it particularly disease ridden.

    http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/28/6/1734.full
    , @Alden
    Canada and the northern now US colonies were pretty much disease and filth free. The water unlike in Europe where it had been contaminated by animal and human waste for centuries was clean and drinkable. Food was abundant. The New Englanders could send the kids out to the lobster pots and they would come home with a 6 ft lobster. There were of course deer in abundance in some areas. The Spanish deposited some pigs in Florida in the early 1500s and within a century they were all over.

    Few people and no old outhouses meant colonial America was clean which meant little disease. New England Mothers often had 10 or more children who all lived and didn't kill the Moms either. All that abundant protein meant a generous supply of breast milk.

    The colonials in the country often built their homes instead of moving into a 200 year old house full of TB, fleas, bedbugs, lice etc. The rural living helped a lot too as people were not crowded into towns where disease could spread.
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  • The Cavalier aristocracy involved more a sense of what one should be, how one in a position of responsibility should behave. It is largely gone. I am not sure that we would not profit by its return.

    A lot of it will return, because it is born of a truth that the current dispensation does not know. In those days men did not think so much of changing the world, but of how they were supposed to live in it as it was. This is what Jesus taught if you read the Gospels with your eyes open.

    Once the world-savers of today have found themselves surrounded by the ashes and ruin born of their hubris we will find that virtue again and the world will profit.

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  • “a tranquility undisturbed by the stench and clamor of today”: disease-ridden, though, wasn’t it? Was that poo-in-the-water related? Or mainly slave-related? Or something else entirely?

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    The accounts of the era didn't seem to make it particularly disease ridden. I imagine at least some of the vectors of illness, such as widespread rodent infestation, were not as common in the agrarian South.
    , @Warrington Faust
    Fred thank you for spreading the word about the Tidewater. I am also descend from two FFV families.

    My New England friends assume that we chowed down on hog's knuckles and are amazed that my grandmother played Brahms.

    Can you imagine any modern politician believably penning “We mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor,”
    , @TFL
    Just can't resist turning something beautiful into something ugly!
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  • It has been an open question for historians of the fall of the Roman Empire the extent to which ethno-tribal migrant caused the transformation toward the post-Roman order. In Britain, for example, there has long been debate as to whether the shift from a predominantly Celtic population with a cosmopolitan Latin-speaking patina (at least demographically...
  • Have you – has anyone reading this – got any info on what the great volcanic eruption of 536, probably Ilopango in what is now El Salvador, contributed to England becoming English speaking in a short time? Was there a particularly high death rate amongst poor native pre Anglo-Saxon Britons perhaps?

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  • You often use Heather on this type of topic, and I sometimes thinks it distorts things a bit because he presents himself as being in an argument. As an example I note he mentions Guy Halsall. It is good to read the two authors in parallel, because Halsall has also written good books which cover similar ground. They agree on much. Halsall specifically says that he does not think anyone is arguing against large scale Germanic immigration into England. What he is more concerned about is questioning simple invasion models which equates genes, languages and ethnic names such that the Anglo Saxons simply invaded massively and fought against “Rome”. He thinks it was a slow process that changed in nature fundamentally in time because Rome itself was changing. Some points on this:

    First, England and northern France are Halsall’s specialty, whereas Heather’s background was in Goths in Eastern Europe.

    Secondly, we should also keep in mind the bigger debate Heather and Halsall build around. Heather is known as a person attacking the idea that Rome pulled itself apart, and defending the idea that there were massive and quick invasions of people who were not Roman, but fighting against Romans. He focuses a lot on SE Europe, where this is arguably most true.

    Halsall is known as someone who has argued with quite specific arguments that this is probably not the case in Northern France and Southern England. He sees the Merovingians (who he argues show no real sign of having actually moved south, but seem to have started right in the south of Northern France, near the Loire) and the earliest Saxons (the ones in the south of England, which remained fairly Romanized for quite long) as having started as Romanized military groups (such groups often had ethnic military names, even though they might have contained mixes of ethnic groups) who were later able to link to less Romanized kin. So the way I read him, these people might have become Roman if things had gone differently, so they did not invade Rome. He thinks the Roman versus Briton narrative developed much later. (He makes an intriguing speculation, which he very clearly would not want to defend too hard, that if King Arthur had existed he could just as easily have been a “Saxon”, because the Saxons of his time may not yet have been defined in the same way with regards to how they contrasted with “Romans” and “Britons”. He proposes that at this time Saxons, ie the military, were not only on coasts but actually posted along the frontier with less developed highland areas. Consider Wessex and Mercia for example.)

    Note that there is some scope for Halsall and Heather to be seen as specialists for specific regions and to some extent they seem to leave some room for that, the way I read them.

    Something particularly relevant, anyway, is that when Heather makes his case for a simpler “old fashioned” invasion in England he goes outside his field and makes arguments based on genetics and linguistics, and I think there are some obvious weak points. He does not even mention the idea that SE English might have become Romance speaking, though this is a well-known idea, and the mere possibility ruins his chain of logic. And he apparently misreads badly the DNA evidence that was available, suggesting that there is a Y haplotype in Britain which has very high frequencies, but especially in the obvious English invasion zones. He must be misinterpreting one of the articles of that time concerning R1b? But, other issues aside, this haplogroup is most common in Ireland, Wales and Scotland. The likely invasion zones did (and still do) show signs of connections to Northern Germany, but not in the way he explains. More generally Y DNA is more diverse and continental in SE England (the core of both England, and Roman Britain) than the rest of Britain and Ireland, and this does not prove much because that matches many scenarios.

    Halsall on the hand does not make these mistakes, but also points out that it would not matter when we talk about the question of whether Saxons were invaders. People with non Roman ancestry could become Roman in the military, but at some point that stopped happening. Heather argues that a big reason it stopped happening is the breakdown of the system (financial, communication, economic etc) and this was caused by invasions and wars with foreigners. I can’t really think of anyone who would not accept that these things played a role, but Heather argues for a relatively simple causality compared to some of the people he sees himself as arguing against.

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  • Has anyone looked at Brittany in France? I wonder if their genomes are more similar to the British Roman genome.

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  • @Bultare
    I meant more like Gotlandic than Lithuanian. I'm presuming the AS has around a half of local British ancestry so the other half would be even more distinct.

    And by the way, almost everything they said about N1c and I1 in that paper seems to be wrong. They are mixing up recent with outdated and even some completely irrelevant sources. Shouldn't have been written in 2015.

    I’m pointing to the frequencies of haplogroups in fig 5. that paper in particular, they are correct and detailed in the supplements. The conclusions are up to a decade past their expiration date, I just ignore them but perhaps should have added a disclaimer.

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  • @Shaikorth
    L258 frequency isn't that high just in the very southwest. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0130331#pone-0130331-g005

    Anyway the continental Europeans having highest IBS with Anglo-Saxon in Martiniano et al. are Norwegians and Finns, slightly above Germans (and Orcadians). If this was a result of Baltic admixture in the Anglo-Saxon I'm pretty sure we'd also see Lithuanians and Poles topping Germans. This isn't the case here, though there is a Roman era Briton with R1b-U106 whose closest continental matches are Lithuanians and Poles (even though that haplo is often considered a Germanic marker). That's why I proposed the idea of Anglo-Saxon like substrate in the North Baltic in particular instead of Anglo-Saxon having Baltic ancestry.

    I meant more like Gotlandic than Lithuanian. I’m presuming the AS has around a half of local British ancestry so the other half would be even more distinct.

    And by the way, almost everything they said about N1c and I1 in that paper seems to be wrong. They are mixing up recent with outdated and even some completely irrelevant sources. Shouldn’t have been written in 2015.

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    • Replies: @Shaikorth
    I'm pointing to the frequencies of haplogroups in fig 5. that paper in particular, they are correct and detailed in the supplements. The conclusions are up to a decade past their expiration date, I just ignore them but perhaps should have added a disclaimer.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bultare
    If the Anglo-Saxon has a considerably higher IBS with SW Finns(the ones with 50% I1-l258) than with Germanic populations I think that might indicate that he is either unrepresentative of Anglo-Saxons(having more Baltic Sea ancestors) or that the genetic structure of northern Germany(perhaps Scandinavia also) has changed since Angles left. I wouldn't know how to check this myself.

    L258 frequency isn’t that high just in the very southwest. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0130331#pone-0130331-g005

    Anyway the continental Europeans having highest IBS with Anglo-Saxon in Martiniano et al. are Norwegians and Finns, slightly above Germans (and Orcadians). If this was a result of Baltic admixture in the Anglo-Saxon I’m pretty sure we’d also see Lithuanians and Poles topping Germans. This isn’t the case here, though there is a Roman era Briton with R1b-U106 whose closest continental matches are Lithuanians and Poles (even though that haplo is often considered a Germanic marker). That’s why I proposed the idea of Anglo-Saxon like substrate in the North Baltic in particular instead of Anglo-Saxon having Baltic ancestry.

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    • Replies: @Bultare
    I meant more like Gotlandic than Lithuanian. I'm presuming the AS has around a half of local British ancestry so the other half would be even more distinct.

    And by the way, almost everything they said about N1c and I1 in that paper seems to be wrong. They are mixing up recent with outdated and even some completely irrelevant sources. Shouldn't have been written in 2015.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Shaikorth
    There are a lot of signs of proto-Germanic (not Norse or Swedish) contacts in Baltic Finnic languages. I think there was a contact with such a group explaining high frequency of I1-L258 in western Finland or at least somewhere around the North Baltic. This would be long past Corded Ware and explain why Finland stands out compared to populations to its south, nearer "the core" of CW, like Belorussians in Anglo-Saxon IBS, but not in Iron Age/Roman era Briton IBS.

    Mauri M. posted some f3 tests on his blog about this over a year ago, when testing for East Finnish-Northwest European mixture in West Finns the signal is most negative (significant) with Hinxton Anglo-Saxon, much more so than with modern Scandinavians.

    If the Anglo-Saxon has a considerably higher IBS with SW Finns(the ones with 50% I1-l258) than with Germanic populations I think that might indicate that he is either unrepresentative of Anglo-Saxons(having more Baltic Sea ancestors) or that the genetic structure of northern Germany(perhaps Scandinavia also) has changed since Angles left. I wouldn’t know how to check this myself.

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    • Replies: @Shaikorth
    L258 frequency isn't that high just in the very southwest. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0130331#pone-0130331-g005

    Anyway the continental Europeans having highest IBS with Anglo-Saxon in Martiniano et al. are Norwegians and Finns, slightly above Germans (and Orcadians). If this was a result of Baltic admixture in the Anglo-Saxon I'm pretty sure we'd also see Lithuanians and Poles topping Germans. This isn't the case here, though there is a Roman era Briton with R1b-U106 whose closest continental matches are Lithuanians and Poles (even though that haplo is often considered a Germanic marker). That's why I proposed the idea of Anglo-Saxon like substrate in the North Baltic in particular instead of Anglo-Saxon having Baltic ancestry.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Bultare
    I'm a bit confused about the Anglo-Saxons high IBS with Finns since I doubt the Finnish sample they used was very southwestern and the Anglo-Saxon also had high IBS with Ireland so he may have had quite a bit of local ancestry.

    There are a lot of signs of proto-Germanic (not Norse or Swedish) contacts in Baltic Finnic languages. I think there was a contact with such a group explaining high frequency of I1-L258 in western Finland or at least somewhere around the North Baltic. This would be long past Corded Ware and explain why Finland stands out compared to populations to its south, nearer “the core” of CW, like Belorussians in Anglo-Saxon IBS, but not in Iron Age/Roman era Briton IBS.

    Mauri M. posted some f3 tests on his blog about this over a year ago, when testing for East Finnish-Northwest European mixture in West Finns the signal is most negative (significant) with Hinxton Anglo-Saxon, much more so than with modern Scandinavians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bultare
    If the Anglo-Saxon has a considerably higher IBS with SW Finns(the ones with 50% I1-l258) than with Germanic populations I think that might indicate that he is either unrepresentative of Anglo-Saxons(having more Baltic Sea ancestors) or that the genetic structure of northern Germany(perhaps Scandinavia also) has changed since Angles left. I wouldn't know how to check this myself.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Razib Khan
    i think the issue is with the finns. i am of the view that modern finns are actually mostly descended from a corded ware group which was fennicized:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture#/media/File:Map_Corded_Ware_culture-en.svg

    That’s not exactly a controversial position I think. If some geneticist reading this blog wants to crack the Finno-Ugric origins puzzle go get some bones from far eastern Corded Ware(Fatyanovo and Balanovo), Volosovo, Kazan and Ananyino cultures.

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  • @AG

    extreme positions of total replacement or (near) total continuity are both false.
     
    Is this another example of ethnic introgression?

    Intuitively I felt most human evolution history was that of repeated introgression instead of racial genocide (certainly racist and NAZI believe that). Within a society, social mobility itself (both downward and upward) might be part of these processes. After thousands and thousands years, you end up with a totally different people or species.

    i’d say admixture.

    and yes, ancient DNA is telling us that there was lots of admixture and migration and movement over the past 10,000 years. though in some cases the replacement scenario seems plausible, and in others (more recent) acculturation of the local populace to the elite culture.

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