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    Black metal is a musical subgenre that grew out of death metal and, more broadly, heavy metal. In general, it pushes certain aspects of this genre to even farther extremes: fast tempos, shrieking vocals, and violent stage acts. Black metal bands can be found almost anywhere—Europe, North America, East Asia, even Indonesia and Israel. In...
  • @It was supposed to be the Romans who actually crucified Jesus of course.

    What do you mean by “supposed”? We know that the Romans crucified Jesus at the behest of the Jews who hadn’t been able to stone him because he escaped any attempt. And by the Jews own admission they could not follow their own legal procedures. The accusations did not stand.
    They did folow them in the case of St. Stephen, who was stoned “legally”, following proper procedure.

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  • Not consistent with what we know of Roman legal procedure. It was supposed to be the Romans who actually crucified Jesus of course.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Stephen#The_Stoning_of_Stephen

    By his own account Paul was stoned almost to death .

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  • @Sean
    Again, his conclusion from textual analysis apparently agrees with what it says in the Talmud, and the opinion of experts on the period as to what would have been the fate of anyone saying they were God. The account of the trial and execution is not consistent with what is known of Roman procedure. I did not bring up the issue, and do not pretend to know.

    @his conclusion from textual analysis apparently agrees with what it says in the Talmud

    But this is precisely what his “textual analysis” was intent to show. In other words to “interpret” the Scriptures through the Talmud. The whole endeavor of the “high criticism” is to deconstruct the narrative of the primary sources and reconstruct it in conformity with the prejudices of the interpreters. You would notice that such interpretations are always viewed as “challenges” the “very foundations of Christianity”. In that particular case the vast attempt to deny any responsibility of the Jews in the death of Jesus.
    The account of the trial and execution is perfectly consistent with what is known of Roman procedure. The Jews were accusing Jesus of sedition and lese-majesty, a false accusation, in front of the Roman authority, precisely because they could not do it in a Jewish court. The Gospels talk of their repeated unsuccesful attempts.
    Powell’s book was received with polite derision by the specialists and even with some concern by the purfenders of “Christian antisemitism”, alarmed by the fact that it put the blame directly on the Jews, which “could undoubtedly have anti-Semitic repercussions.”
    In fact the passage of the Talmud (Sanhedrin, 43a) is: “Jesus was hanged on Passover Eve. Forty days previously the herald had cried, “He is being led out for stoning, because he has practiced sorcery and led Israel astray and enticed them into apostasy. Whosoever has anything to say in his defense, let him come and declare it.” As nothing was brought forward in his defense, he was hanged on Passover Eve.” It does not “challenge” but confirm the New Testament narrative: “hang him on a tree”, Crucifixion.

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  • @Anonymous
    You quoted van Creveld above on the relevance of technological developments. If genetic replication of particular sets of genes just becomes a trivial technical matter, then people may regard it as even more nihilistic and meaningless than they already do:

    https://news.yahoo.com/china-clone-factory-scientist-eyes-human-replication-061141389.html

    During the Yugoslavian war paramilitaries captured enemy families and one type of abuse was, when ordered at gunpoint, some fathers raped their own daughters. Other fathers refused and said they preferred to die. Everyone says they would but there are some who really prefer death before dishonour, and such inviolable principles may be the most important thing about a person or country when it comes down to it, and the truth emerges.

    I suppose that just as those fathers were similar people but some put their idea of integrity before life itself, there are differences between closely related countries like Norway and Denmark, and there are things one would do to survive that others would never do. Racism, and tight immigration control is about as acceptable to the politically concerned classes as sexually abusing one’s own children (people speak of “racial abuse”). I think erosion of national and European genetic identity is feared, but no-one has a gun to their head, yet, so anti racist principles are still held to be inviolable by everyone in public life.

    As far as I know the cloning of humans has been more or less possible for a while, but the large improvements to IQ that might be possible with genetic engineering is the subject that is carefully avoided, because it brings up the racial disparities that exist. Right now in the UK there are laws against genetically engineering a child to be deaf. When I have heard discussions by gene scientists and ethics academics, they are happy talking about cloning and physical attributes but they will never really accept that intelligence is genetically based rather than a result of upbringing and educational advantages, and we may be able to massively boost IQ. I rather suspect if gene boosting of IQ becomes possible there will be agitation for immigrants, especially black Africans, to be given it free and preferentially.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Seraphim
    Well, the authority is the Gospel itself:

    John 8, 48-59:
    48Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. 51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."

    John, 10, 22-39:
    22And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.
    31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand".

    The Gospel according to Enoch Powell is just an addition to the heap of BS of "New Testament Textual Criticism". He wrote his book while in an advanced stage of Parkinson's disease, a degenerative brain disease, which slowly reduces the ability of the nerves to control the muscles (so one may wonder if he really was able to write it in the first place). Mild memory difficulties and diminished capacity to reason or concentrate are relatively common early symptoms which may (in most cases) evolve in dementia.

    Again, his conclusion from textual analysis apparently agrees with what it says in the Talmud, and the opinion of experts on the period as to what would have been the fate of anyone saying they were God. The account of the trial and execution is not consistent with what is known of Roman procedure. I did not bring up the issue, and do not pretend to know.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    @his conclusion from textual analysis apparently agrees with what it says in the Talmud

    But this is precisely what his "textual analysis" was intent to show. In other words to "interpret" the Scriptures through the Talmud. The whole endeavor of the "high criticism" is to deconstruct the narrative of the primary sources and reconstruct it in conformity with the prejudices of the interpreters. You would notice that such interpretations are always viewed as "challenges" the "very foundations of Christianity". In that particular case the vast attempt to deny any responsibility of the Jews in the death of Jesus.
    The account of the trial and execution is perfectly consistent with what is known of Roman procedure. The Jews were accusing Jesus of sedition and lese-majesty, a false accusation, in front of the Roman authority, precisely because they could not do it in a Jewish court. The Gospels talk of their repeated unsuccesful attempts.
    Powell's book was received with polite derision by the specialists and even with some concern by the purfenders of "Christian antisemitism", alarmed by the fact that it put the blame directly on the Jews, which "could undoubtedly have anti-Semitic repercussions."
    In fact the passage of the Talmud (Sanhedrin, 43a) is: "Jesus was hanged on Passover Eve. Forty days previously the herald had cried, “He is being led out for stoning, because he has practiced sorcery and led Israel astray and enticed them into apostasy. Whosoever has anything to say in his defense, let him come and declare it.” As nothing was brought forward in his defense, he was hanged on Passover Eve." It does not "challenge" but confirm the New Testament narrative: "hang him on a tree", Crucifixion.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sean
    I have heard an authority on the period say that if anyone had publicly said he was God he would have been immediately stoned to death, and when Enoch Powell's book was published it was noted that his conclusion is agreement with what it says in the Talmud.

    Well, the authority is the Gospel itself:

    John 8, 48-59:
    48Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. 51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.”

    John, 10, 22-39:
    22And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch. 24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and my Father are one.
    31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand”.

    The Gospel according to Enoch Powell is just an addition to the heap of BS of “New Testament Textual Criticism”. He wrote his book while in an advanced stage of Parkinson’s disease, a degenerative brain disease, which slowly reduces the ability of the nerves to control the muscles (so one may wonder if he really was able to write it in the first place). Mild memory difficulties and diminished capacity to reason or concentrate are relatively common early symptoms which may (in most cases) evolve in dementia.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    Again, his conclusion from textual analysis apparently agrees with what it says in the Talmud, and the opinion of experts on the period as to what would have been the fate of anyone saying they were God. The account of the trial and execution is not consistent with what is known of Roman procedure. I did not bring up the issue, and do not pretend to know.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sean
    I suppose the post being about Norway, we should allow that nation state has emergent qualities: special characteristics. If everything boils down to what lets our bloodline go on, more of less as it has in historical time, that is a lowest common denominator analysis, which many modern thinkers might well consider to be nihilistic compared to some irreducible core of values.

    There are things some people (and countries) would prefer death to, and Norway may just be a country that prefers to be destroyed rather than bend to the requirements of genetic survival. I'm sure they could (Christianity-style) think of such a refusal to submit to nihilistic necessity as a victory over death.

    You quoted van Creveld above on the relevance of technological developments. If genetic replication of particular sets of genes just becomes a trivial technical matter, then people may regard it as even more nihilistic and meaningless than they already do:

    https://news.yahoo.com/china-clone-factory-scientist-eyes-human-replication-061141389.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    During the Yugoslavian war paramilitaries captured enemy families and one type of abuse was, when ordered at gunpoint, some fathers raped their own daughters. Other fathers refused and said they preferred to die. Everyone says they would but there are some who really prefer death before dishonour, and such inviolable principles may be the most important thing about a person or country when it comes down to it, and the truth emerges.

    I suppose that just as those fathers were similar people but some put their idea of integrity before life itself, there are differences between closely related countries like Norway and Denmark, and there are things one would do to survive that others would never do. Racism, and tight immigration control is about as acceptable to the politically concerned classes as sexually abusing one's own children (people speak of "racial abuse"). I think erosion of national and European genetic identity is feared, but no-one has a gun to their head, yet, so anti racist principles are still held to be inviolable by everyone in public life.

    As far as I know the cloning of humans has been more or less possible for a while, but the large improvements to IQ that might be possible with genetic engineering is the subject that is carefully avoided, because it brings up the racial disparities that exist. Right now in the UK there are laws against genetically engineering a child to be deaf. When I have heard discussions by gene scientists and ethics academics, they are happy talking about cloning and physical attributes but they will never really accept that intelligence is genetically based rather than a result of upbringing and educational advantages, and we may be able to massively boost IQ. I rather suspect if gene boosting of IQ becomes possible there will be agitation for immigrants, especially black Africans, to be given it free and preferentially.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sean
    I suppose the post being about Norway, we should allow that nation state has emergent qualities: special characteristics. If everything boils down to what lets our bloodline go on, more of less as it has in historical time, that is a lowest common denominator analysis, which many modern thinkers might well consider to be nihilistic compared to some irreducible core of values.

    There are things some people (and countries) would prefer death to, and Norway may just be a country that prefers to be destroyed rather than bend to the requirements of genetic survival. I'm sure they could (Christianity-style) think of such a refusal to submit to nihilistic necessity as a victory over death.

    We don’t care that much about those modern border lines. The important thing is for all tribes to head for the mountains and relax , while the Unters do their stuff. After that we come back.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Burzum live;)

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I suppose the post being about Norway, we should allow that nation state has emergent qualities: special characteristics. If everything boils down to what lets our bloodline go on, more of less as it has in historical time, that is a lowest common denominator analysis, which many modern thinkers might well consider to be nihilistic compared to some irreducible core of values.

    There are things some people (and countries) would prefer death to, and Norway may just be a country that prefers to be destroyed rather than bend to the requirements of genetic survival. I’m sure they could (Christianity-style) think of such a refusal to submit to nihilistic necessity as a victory over death.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TB
    We don't care that much about those modern border lines. The important thing is for all tribes to head for the mountains and relax , while the Unters do their stuff. After that we come back.
    , @Anonymous
    You quoted van Creveld above on the relevance of technological developments. If genetic replication of particular sets of genes just becomes a trivial technical matter, then people may regard it as even more nihilistic and meaningless than they already do:

    https://news.yahoo.com/china-clone-factory-scientist-eyes-human-replication-061141389.html
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Seraphim
    @The pagan sources are interesting, however, because they are earlier and more complete

    Would you care to indicate more in detail these sources prior to Celsus (writing at about 180AD) who criticized the Christians' beliefs precisely by expressing the views of the Jews?
    A short sample of his arguments: Christ did not fulfil the Messianic expectations of the Hebrew people. Christ, he says, claimed to be of virgin birth; in reality, He was the illegitimate son of a Jewish village woman, the wife of a carpenter, convicted for adultery . . During the course of His public ministry Christ could not convince His countrymen that His mission was divine. As followers He had ten or twelve "infamous publicans and fishermen". Such is not the company that befits a god. He upbraids those Jews who, "abandoning the law of their fathers", allowed themselves to be deceived by one whom their nation had condemned, and changed their name from Hebrew to Christian. Jesus did not fulfil His promises to the Jews; instead of succeeding as they should have expected the Messias to succeed, and more...(actually some are already in the Gospels).
    BTW "it is generally supposed that Celsus was a Roman. His intimate acquaintance, however, with the Jewish religion and his knowledge, such as it was, of Egyptian ideas and customs incline some historians to think he belonged to the Eastern portion of the empire". Was he actually a Jew however much "hellenized"?

    I have heard an authority on the period say that if anyone had publicly said he was God he would have been immediately stoned to death, and when Enoch Powell’s book was published it was noted that his conclusion is agreement with what it says in the Talmud.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Well, the authority is the Gospel itself:

    John 8, 48-59:
    48Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. 51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."

    John, 10, 22-39:
    22And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.
    31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand".

    The Gospel according to Enoch Powell is just an addition to the heap of BS of "New Testament Textual Criticism". He wrote his book while in an advanced stage of Parkinson's disease, a degenerative brain disease, which slowly reduces the ability of the nerves to control the muscles (so one may wonder if he really was able to write it in the first place). Mild memory difficulties and diminished capacity to reason or concentrate are relatively common early symptoms which may (in most cases) evolve in dementia.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    I didn’t know Mainline denominations were promoting literalism into the 70s.

    I still have my New Testament study reader from that time (Remembering the Lord). There is only one passage that questions the inerrancy of the Bible, and it does so very timidly. This is the part where it discusses the ending of the Gospel of Mark and the Resurrection of Jesus:

    If you have a Revised Standard Version of the Bible you will see that the verses following this one (Mark 16:8) appear in small print and at the bottom of the page. This is because they have apparently been added on by someone else, probably in the second century.

     


    We know this because they are not included in the earliest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel that we have. Also because the style of the Greek in them is quite different, so different that they cannot have been written by the same person who wrote the Gospel.

     

    Even so, the author of the reader doesn't conclude that the Resurrection never happened.

    It is possible, of course, that this is the way Mark ended his book. It is not surprising that, confronted by such an amazing event as the Resurrection, "they were afraid." Now they knew for certain that in Jesus they had met God himself, and therefore that life could never be the same for them again.
     
    This reader is very different from the material now published by the United Church of Canada. No mention of LGBT. No multiculturalism. There are a few references to Little Rock and South Africa, but I don't recall reading those parts, either by myself or in confirmation class.

    The unique source of these claims is the Jewish one. The “pagan” ones are just echoing this “source”.

    Well, yes. The people who knew Jesus during his life were overwhelmingly Jewish. The pagan sources are interesting, however, because they are earlier and more complete than what we find in the Talmud. Moreover, there was much pressure on Jews from the Church to delete offensive passages about Jesus from the Talmud.

    @The pagan sources are interesting, however, because they are earlier and more complete

    Would you care to indicate more in detail these sources prior to Celsus (writing at about 180AD) who criticized the Christians’ beliefs precisely by expressing the views of the Jews?
    A short sample of his arguments: Christ did not fulfil the Messianic expectations of the Hebrew people. Christ, he says, claimed to be of virgin birth; in reality, He was the illegitimate son of a Jewish village woman, the wife of a carpenter, convicted for adultery . . During the course of His public ministry Christ could not convince His countrymen that His mission was divine. As followers He had ten or twelve “infamous publicans and fishermen”. Such is not the company that befits a god. He upbraids those Jews who, “abandoning the law of their fathers”, allowed themselves to be deceived by one whom their nation had condemned, and changed their name from Hebrew to Christian. Jesus did not fulfil His promises to the Jews; instead of succeeding as they should have expected the Messias to succeed, and more…(actually some are already in the Gospels).
    BTW “it is generally supposed that Celsus was a Roman. His intimate acquaintance, however, with the Jewish religion and his knowledge, such as it was, of Egyptian ideas and customs incline some historians to think he belonged to the Eastern portion of the empire”. Was he actually a Jew however much “hellenized”?

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    • Replies: @Sean
    I have heard an authority on the period say that if anyone had publicly said he was God he would have been immediately stoned to death, and when Enoch Powell's book was published it was noted that his conclusion is agreement with what it says in the Talmud.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I didn’t know Mainline denominations were promoting literalism into the 70s.

    I still have my New Testament study reader from that time (Remembering the Lord). There is only one passage that questions the inerrancy of the Bible, and it does so very timidly. This is the part where it discusses the ending of the Gospel of Mark and the Resurrection of Jesus:

    If you have a Revised Standard Version of the Bible you will see that the verses following this one (Mark 16:8) appear in small print and at the bottom of the page. This is because they have apparently been added on by someone else, probably in the second century.

    We know this because they are not included in the earliest manuscripts of Mark’s Gospel that we have. Also because the style of the Greek in them is quite different, so different that they cannot have been written by the same person who wrote the Gospel.

    Even so, the author of the reader doesn’t conclude that the Resurrection never happened.

    It is possible, of course, that this is the way Mark ended his book. It is not surprising that, confronted by such an amazing event as the Resurrection, “they were afraid.” Now they knew for certain that in Jesus they had met God himself, and therefore that life could never be the same for them again.

    This reader is very different from the material now published by the United Church of Canada. No mention of LGBT. No multiculturalism. There are a few references to Little Rock and South Africa, but I don’t recall reading those parts, either by myself or in confirmation class.

    The unique source of these claims is the Jewish one. The “pagan” ones are just echoing this “source”.

    Well, yes. The people who knew Jesus during his life were overwhelmingly Jewish. The pagan sources are interesting, however, because they are earlier and more complete than what we find in the Talmud. Moreover, there was much pressure on Jews from the Church to delete offensive passages about Jesus from the Talmud.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    @The pagan sources are interesting, however, because they are earlier and more complete

    Would you care to indicate more in detail these sources prior to Celsus (writing at about 180AD) who criticized the Christians' beliefs precisely by expressing the views of the Jews?
    A short sample of his arguments: Christ did not fulfil the Messianic expectations of the Hebrew people. Christ, he says, claimed to be of virgin birth; in reality, He was the illegitimate son of a Jewish village woman, the wife of a carpenter, convicted for adultery . . During the course of His public ministry Christ could not convince His countrymen that His mission was divine. As followers He had ten or twelve "infamous publicans and fishermen". Such is not the company that befits a god. He upbraids those Jews who, "abandoning the law of their fathers", allowed themselves to be deceived by one whom their nation had condemned, and changed their name from Hebrew to Christian. Jesus did not fulfil His promises to the Jews; instead of succeeding as they should have expected the Messias to succeed, and more...(actually some are already in the Gospels).
    BTW "it is generally supposed that Celsus was a Roman. His intimate acquaintance, however, with the Jewish religion and his knowledge, such as it was, of Egyptian ideas and customs incline some historians to think he belonged to the Eastern portion of the empire". Was he actually a Jew however much "hellenized"?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    Why are the English so weighed down by hate legislation?

    My impression is that anti-hate laws are more draconian in continental Europe than in Great Britain.

    Who do you believe was Jesus’s real father?

    Jewish and pagan sources claim that his father was a Roman soldier called Pantera. A lot has been written on this subject, the most complete review being available in James Tabor's book The Jesus Dynasty.

    I started to prepare material for a paper on the same subject and then decided not to go ahead.

    Are you Unitarian in your beliefs? I think you mentioned in the past that you were a member of the United Church, which from what I understand is, or at least was, a Trinitarian, Mainline Protestant denomination.

    No, I'm not Unitarian. I was raised in the United Church of Canada, which today is very liberal, but what I was taught at that time (1970s) would now be considered very conservative. I didn't go through with my confirmation because I would have had to accept the literal truth of the Bible (the Garden of Eden, the Flood, etc.).

    My impression is that anti-hate laws are more draconian in continental Europe than in Great Britain.

    Because they do not have the jury system, prosecutors have more powers in countries like Germany and France and Italy (ask Amanda Knox) but in general Britain has the most Draconian legislation which date from the 68 and 76 race law (intended to silence Enoch Powell). For example, in the 2013 aftermath of people noticing the child sex slaves everyone knew about for decades

    AS long ago as 2001, Nick Griffin, the leader of the BNP, was making claims about Asian grooming gangs. In 2004 he repeated these allegations in a speech clandestinely recorded by the BBC for a TV documentary, Secret Agent. He was arrested and charged with inciting racial hatred. Which is exactly what he was doing, of course. He was making his allegations to stir up ethnic strife. The political Establishment, conscious of the BNP’s record as liars, therefore presumed, fatally and glibly, that Griffin’s accusations were just racist demagoguery. The result? No doubt Griffin feels vindicated today: for telling the truth before anyone else. And yet, paradoxically, it was his thuggish intervention that gave society another excuse to ignore the scandal. And thus the abuse continued.
    Editor’s note: In the original version of this post, Sean Thomas’s copy was edited in a way that made it appear that he was blaming Griffin for the grooming. He did not do so, and the final paragraph now reflects his true opinion. We apologise to Sean for the confusion this has caused.

    It’s always the same, you bring it up and you caused it to become a toxic issue; they were just about to deal with it, but now they can’t because you mentioned it. The exact same thing was said about Powell, who supposedly caused post 1968 mass immigration into Britain.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/christ-was-not-crucified-says-enoch-powell-1383775.html

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    Why are the English so weighed down by hate legislation?

    My impression is that anti-hate laws are more draconian in continental Europe than in Great Britain.

    Who do you believe was Jesus’s real father?

    Jewish and pagan sources claim that his father was a Roman soldier called Pantera. A lot has been written on this subject, the most complete review being available in James Tabor's book The Jesus Dynasty.

    I started to prepare material for a paper on the same subject and then decided not to go ahead.

    Are you Unitarian in your beliefs? I think you mentioned in the past that you were a member of the United Church, which from what I understand is, or at least was, a Trinitarian, Mainline Protestant denomination.

    No, I'm not Unitarian. I was raised in the United Church of Canada, which today is very liberal, but what I was taught at that time (1970s) would now be considered very conservative. I didn't go through with my confirmation because I would have had to accept the literal truth of the Bible (the Garden of Eden, the Flood, etc.).

    @Who do you believe was Jesus’s real father?

    You know when Christmas or Easter approach by the sudden flow of “new groundbreaking historical biographies of Jesus” which “challenge the Gospel account” and with the aid of “fresh translations and interpretations” and “juxtaposing them to what was likely the Judaism of his time” “enable us to appreciate him as a human being”.
    The unique source of these claims is the Jewish one. The “pagan” ones are just echoing this “source”. Same as the “Professor in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte”, James Tabor.
    The “real” father of Jesus Christ, God the Son is God the Father. The Gospels are historical sources and they should be taken into consideration in the first place. But today as already in the time of St. Paul people would “give heed to fables and endless genealogies” and “they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears”.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Peter Frost
    Why are the English so weighed down by hate legislation?

    My impression is that anti-hate laws are more draconian in continental Europe than in Great Britain.

    Who do you believe was Jesus’s real father?

    Jewish and pagan sources claim that his father was a Roman soldier called Pantera. A lot has been written on this subject, the most complete review being available in James Tabor's book The Jesus Dynasty.

    I started to prepare material for a paper on the same subject and then decided not to go ahead.

    Are you Unitarian in your beliefs? I think you mentioned in the past that you were a member of the United Church, which from what I understand is, or at least was, a Trinitarian, Mainline Protestant denomination.

    No, I'm not Unitarian. I was raised in the United Church of Canada, which today is very liberal, but what I was taught at that time (1970s) would now be considered very conservative. I didn't go through with my confirmation because I would have had to accept the literal truth of the Bible (the Garden of Eden, the Flood, etc.).

    Interesting. I didn’t know Mainline denominations were promoting literalism into the 70s. I knew they were more conservative in the past of course, but now literalism tends to be associated with Evangelicals.

    I assumed you weren’t Unitarian in denomination since you mentioned that you were part of the United Church in the past but was no longer a part of any church. I suppose what I meant to ask was if you had a more unitarian view of Christ to go along with, or perhaps as a consequence of, your less literal view of the Bible.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Why are the English so weighed down by hate legislation?

    My impression is that anti-hate laws are more draconian in continental Europe than in Great Britain.

    Who do you believe was Jesus’s real father?

    Jewish and pagan sources claim that his father was a Roman soldier called Pantera. A lot has been written on this subject, the most complete review being available in James Tabor’s book The Jesus Dynasty.

    I started to prepare material for a paper on the same subject and then decided not to go ahead.

    Are you Unitarian in your beliefs? I think you mentioned in the past that you were a member of the United Church, which from what I understand is, or at least was, a Trinitarian, Mainline Protestant denomination.

    No, I’m not Unitarian. I was raised in the United Church of Canada, which today is very liberal, but what I was taught at that time (1970s) would now be considered very conservative. I didn’t go through with my confirmation because I would have had to accept the literal truth of the Bible (the Garden of Eden, the Flood, etc.).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Interesting. I didn't know Mainline denominations were promoting literalism into the 70s. I knew they were more conservative in the past of course, but now literalism tends to be associated with Evangelicals.

    I assumed you weren't Unitarian in denomination since you mentioned that you were part of the United Church in the past but was no longer a part of any church. I suppose what I meant to ask was if you had a more unitarian view of Christ to go along with, or perhaps as a consequence of, your less literal view of the Bible.
    , @Seraphim
    @Who do you believe was Jesus’s real father?

    You know when Christmas or Easter approach by the sudden flow of "new groundbreaking historical biographies of Jesus" which "challenge the Gospel account" and with the aid of "fresh translations and interpretations" and "juxtaposing them to what was likely the Judaism of his time" "enable us to appreciate him as a human being".
    The unique source of these claims is the Jewish one. The "pagan" ones are just echoing this "source". Same as the "Professor in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte", James Tabor.
    The "real" father of Jesus Christ, God the Son is God the Father. The Gospels are historical sources and they should be taken into consideration in the first place. But today as already in the time of St. Paul people would "give heed to fables and endless genealogies" and "they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears".
    , @Sean

    My impression is that anti-hate laws are more draconian in continental Europe than in Great Britain.
     
    Because they do not have the jury system, prosecutors have more powers in countries like Germany and France and Italy (ask Amanda Knox) but in general Britain has the most Draconian legislation which date from the 68 and 76 race law (intended to silence Enoch Powell). For example, in the 2013 aftermath of people noticing the child sex slaves everyone knew about for decades

    AS long ago as 2001, Nick Griffin, the leader of the BNP, was making claims about Asian grooming gangs. In 2004 he repeated these allegations in a speech clandestinely recorded by the BBC for a TV documentary, Secret Agent. He was arrested and charged with inciting racial hatred. Which is exactly what he was doing, of course. He was making his allegations to stir up ethnic strife. The political Establishment, conscious of the BNP's record as liars, therefore presumed, fatally and glibly, that Griffin's accusations were just racist demagoguery. The result? No doubt Griffin feels vindicated today: for telling the truth before anyone else. And yet, paradoxically, it was his thuggish intervention that gave society another excuse to ignore the scandal. And thus the abuse continued.
    Editor's note: In the original version of this post, Sean Thomas's copy was edited in a way that made it appear that he was blaming Griffin for the grooming. He did not do so, and the final paragraph now reflects his true opinion. We apologise to Sean for the confusion this has caused.
     
    It's always the same, you bring it up and you caused it to become a toxic issue; they were just about to deal with it, but now they can't because you mentioned it. The exact same thing was said about Powell, who supposedly caused post 1968 mass immigration into Britain.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/christ-was-not-crucified-says-enoch-powell-1383775.html
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    I used to listen to black metal (I occasionally still do), and read a lot of interviews, and the only musician I can name who even brought up immigration is Varg Vikernes, and I think even he only brought it up several years later, already in prison. In other words, I don’t think immigration was much on the minds of these musicians.

    In Norway, it is difficult to discuss immigration openly, other than in economic or humanitarian terms. With black metal, there is the added problem that the lyrics are difficult to decipher. But the immigration issue does come up in SWNBM (Second Wave Norwegian Black Metal):

    Those convicted for church burnings showed no remorse and described their actions as a symbolic "retaliation" against Christianity in Norway.[60] Mayhem drummer Hellhammer said he had called for attacks on mosques and Hindu temples, on the basis that they were more foreign.

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Norwegian_black_metal_scene

    Blomberg, the drummer of the band Mayhem, for example, drew parallels between 'races' and different types of animals, positing rigid taxonomic categories of human beings: I'm pretty convinced that there are differences between races as well as anything else. I think that like animals some races are more […] you know, like a cat is much more intelligent than a bird or a cow, or even a dog, and I think that's also the case with different races. (Moynihan and Søderlind, 2003: 352).
     
    http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/cross_fac/iatl/reinvention/issues/volume3issue2/fung/

    SWNBM's zealous romantic vision of Viking and Pagan past leads to aversion towards institutionalised religions in contemporary Norwegian society. Many SWNBM musicians overtly oppose Christianity in particular 'for its association with corrupt and hypocritical churches' (Kahn-Harris, 2007: 38). Symbols and images associated with Satanism thus frequently adorn merchandise and artistic contents of SWNBN as a manifestation of such sentiment. Additionally, anti-Christian imagery, as argued by Kahn-Harris (2007), also represents an indiscriminate opposition towards organised religion in general: 'Norway, like the rest of Europe, is under Judeo-Christian law. This murderous faith forced our ancestors to convert to a religion imported from the desert. We're not Hebrews, we are Indo-Europeans and thus we want a European spirituality' (Gungnir, cited in Moynihan and Søderlind, 2003: 356). The ideas presented in Gungnir's comment are comparable to the notion of 'cultural fundamentalism', which conceives cultural and ethnic differences as insuperable, whether in Islam, Christianity or Judaism (Taylor, 2008: 6). Instead of 'hierarchical judgements of inferiority and superiority', the opposition towards multiculturalism is justified on the basis of cultural incompatibility, thus espousing a zero-sum relationship between the 'authentic' Norwegian cultural identity purported by SWNBM and other 'foreign' religions and cultures (Goldberg, 1999: 367). SWNBM's disdain for multiculturalism and universalism is aptly illustrated in the following statement by Daoloth: 'a Europe for Europeans as it was in ancient times, before multi-culturalism and universalism were adopted as the official political/religious stance' (Moynihan and Søderlind, 2003: 354).

     

    http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/cross_fac/iatl/reinvention/issues/volume3issue2/fung/

    Varg Vikernes has been accused of being responsible for the church burnings. The wiki describes his ideological background as follows:

    Through his writings he promotes a neo-völkisch ideology (Odalism) based on the idea that White Europeans should re-adopt native European values, including elements of traditional paganism. He advocates White nationalism, social conservatism, and survivalism.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varg_Vikernes

    Well that is now over. The emperor is naked. We now witness Sweden collapse and laugh halfheartedly ’cause we know we’re up next

    The emperor is naked, but people won't acknowledge his nakedness until others start pointing it out.

    His Father was God.

    Spiritually, yes. But genetically? I assume he was a man and had a Y chromosome. Did he inherit it from God? If there's one thing that everyone agreed on during the time of Jesus, it's that Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.

    Peter,

    Are you Unitarian in your beliefs? I think you mentioned in the past that you were a member of the United Church, which from what I understand is, or at least was, a Trinitarian, Mainline Protestant denomination.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @helena
    I read an hypothesis once that St George's father may have been an officer in the Roman Army.


    "Survival of our values has come to be seen as paramount".
    That's a good point Sean. Survival of an idea not a people. But it isn't European values that are being preserved. Europeans are not naturally integrationists; hence sites like this. Why are the English so weighed down by hate legislation? Answer: because the English have always been rude about anyone who isn't English. Hence the need for hate (rude actually) speech legislation.

    I don’t know that there is really a great anti-immigrant feeling in Britain among socially concerned people. I have heard extreme anger by gentle Scots against tiny isolated far right type marches locally, especially in the aftermath on the Paris attack, apparently because the common indigenous population are regarded as not really holding British values and liable to go berserk at the drop of a hat. I think laws targeting indigenous community are there because the much trumpeted values are thought to be a veneer. The establishment position is that the values are the thing that makes the world go round, while genetic differences around the world are supposed to be due to drift.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Peter Frost
    I used to listen to black metal (I occasionally still do), and read a lot of interviews, and the only musician I can name who even brought up immigration is Varg Vikernes, and I think even he only brought it up several years later, already in prison. In other words, I don’t think immigration was much on the minds of these musicians.

    In Norway, it is difficult to discuss immigration openly, other than in economic or humanitarian terms. With black metal, there is the added problem that the lyrics are difficult to decipher. But the immigration issue does come up in SWNBM (Second Wave Norwegian Black Metal):

    Those convicted for church burnings showed no remorse and described their actions as a symbolic "retaliation" against Christianity in Norway.[60] Mayhem drummer Hellhammer said he had called for attacks on mosques and Hindu temples, on the basis that they were more foreign.

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Norwegian_black_metal_scene

    Blomberg, the drummer of the band Mayhem, for example, drew parallels between 'races' and different types of animals, positing rigid taxonomic categories of human beings: I'm pretty convinced that there are differences between races as well as anything else. I think that like animals some races are more […] you know, like a cat is much more intelligent than a bird or a cow, or even a dog, and I think that's also the case with different races. (Moynihan and Søderlind, 2003: 352).
     
    http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/cross_fac/iatl/reinvention/issues/volume3issue2/fung/

    SWNBM's zealous romantic vision of Viking and Pagan past leads to aversion towards institutionalised religions in contemporary Norwegian society. Many SWNBM musicians overtly oppose Christianity in particular 'for its association with corrupt and hypocritical churches' (Kahn-Harris, 2007: 38). Symbols and images associated with Satanism thus frequently adorn merchandise and artistic contents of SWNBN as a manifestation of such sentiment. Additionally, anti-Christian imagery, as argued by Kahn-Harris (2007), also represents an indiscriminate opposition towards organised religion in general: 'Norway, like the rest of Europe, is under Judeo-Christian law. This murderous faith forced our ancestors to convert to a religion imported from the desert. We're not Hebrews, we are Indo-Europeans and thus we want a European spirituality' (Gungnir, cited in Moynihan and Søderlind, 2003: 356). The ideas presented in Gungnir's comment are comparable to the notion of 'cultural fundamentalism', which conceives cultural and ethnic differences as insuperable, whether in Islam, Christianity or Judaism (Taylor, 2008: 6). Instead of 'hierarchical judgements of inferiority and superiority', the opposition towards multiculturalism is justified on the basis of cultural incompatibility, thus espousing a zero-sum relationship between the 'authentic' Norwegian cultural identity purported by SWNBM and other 'foreign' religions and cultures (Goldberg, 1999: 367). SWNBM's disdain for multiculturalism and universalism is aptly illustrated in the following statement by Daoloth: 'a Europe for Europeans as it was in ancient times, before multi-culturalism and universalism were adopted as the official political/religious stance' (Moynihan and Søderlind, 2003: 354).

     

    http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/cross_fac/iatl/reinvention/issues/volume3issue2/fung/

    Varg Vikernes has been accused of being responsible for the church burnings. The wiki describes his ideological background as follows:

    Through his writings he promotes a neo-völkisch ideology (Odalism) based on the idea that White Europeans should re-adopt native European values, including elements of traditional paganism. He advocates White nationalism, social conservatism, and survivalism.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varg_Vikernes

    Well that is now over. The emperor is naked. We now witness Sweden collapse and laugh halfheartedly ’cause we know we’re up next

    The emperor is naked, but people won't acknowledge his nakedness until others start pointing it out.

    His Father was God.

    Spiritually, yes. But genetically? I assume he was a man and had a Y chromosome. Did he inherit it from God? If there's one thing that everyone agreed on during the time of Jesus, it's that Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.

    Who do you believe was Jesus’s real father? Is there a possibility it was a white European male?

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  • @Anonymous

    Nation states can’t survive in perpetual peace, that much is now clear. Rich countries have a population that feels secure. Immigration is not seen as an external threat, that is why other nations occupying Norwegians’ land it is not reacted to like the prospect f an invasion from another state. A real threat from a foreign state would not be ignored even if it was very tenuous, like the Russian one is. People have frequently suspected the government of creating false threats.
     
    Here's an example of this sort of thing from the "nation-state" of Texas:

    "ISIS Has Threatened My Motherland The Great Republic Of Texas & My Warning To Them"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnL5ZqsL8cI

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/03/us-europe-migrants-arctic-idUSKCN0R325N20150903

    The funny thing is that Norway can’t perceive the flow of “refugees” (who will never go home of course) being facilitated by Russia as the attack on Norway that is probably in retaliation for Norwegian sanctions .

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/20/a-very-cold-war-on-the-russia-norway-border-syrian-refugees-bicycles/ Even some of Norway’s more Russian-friendly politicians and analysts have begun accusing Moscow of facilitating the sudden surge in asylum-seekers as retribution for sanctions over the Ukraine conflict, a claim Russia denies.

    Assad would like the young men of the troublesome Sunni majority population to leave, and dry up the rebel FSA recuits. Islamic State was probably created by Assad partially as a a way of creating an exodus of refugees. Mobilised third world populations are the century’s secret weapons against the indigenous West, and it’s not just foreign elites who are glad.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    Nation states can't survive in perpetual peace, that much is now clear. Rich countries have a population that feels secure. Immigration is not seen as an external threat, that is why other nations occupying Norwegians' land it is not reacted to like the prospect f an invasion from another state. A real threat from a foreign state would not be ignored even if it was very tenuous, like the Russian one is. People have frequently suspected the government of creating false threats.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Report_from_Iron_Mountain (1967)The heavily footnoted report concluded that peace was not in the interest of a stable society, that even if lasting peace "could be achieved, it would almost certainly not be in the best interests of society to achieve it." War was a part of the economy. Therefore, it was necessary to conceive a state of war for a stable economy. The government, the group theorized, would not exist without war, and nation states existed in order to wage war. War also served a vital function of diverting collective aggression. They recommended that bodies be created to emulate the economic functions of war. They also recommended "blood games" and that the government create alternative foes that would scare the people with reports of alien life-forms and out-of-control pollution.
     
    The foe has become the majority of the population, whose ethnic homogeneity makes them potentially a rival power base. Moreover they not needed as cannon fodder and are blaise. The foreign immigrants are the new friends of the elite and the state, and the social capital of immigrants is boosted by claiming they are the subject of prejudice and discrimination. Mark my words, Jihadist terror attacks are creating a massive surveillance and a disaster for indigenous nationalists, who will become the threat that the security apparatus will be turned on.

    There is some hope howerver:_


    http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/?p=451 First, both assume that the end of the Cold War did in fact represent a critical turning point in history. Either such as marked the end of one kind of conflict and the beginning of another (Huntington); or that represented the beginning of a process which would eventually culminate in a world without war and thus to the End of History (Fukuyama).

    Second and perhaps even more important, both focus on what, for lack of a better term, I shall call spiritual factors. For Fukuyama, the paramount one is ideology. For Huntington, it is identity. In doing so they leave out any other number of factors that have always led, and presumably will continue to lead, to war in the future too. Chief among them are technological developments; competition for economic resources in a world where such resources are said to become less and less plentiful; and, over-arching everything else, the “perpetual and restless desire for power after power that ceaseth only in death” (Thomas Hobbes). The least one can say is that, in any attempt to understand the future of war, these factors must take a paramount place side by side with those Fukuyama and Huntington have focused on.
     

    As Mearsheimer (who advised Ukraine to have an independent nuclear deterrent andpredicted Ukraine's troubles if it didn't 20 years before the event) says, negative consequences flow from “ policy that assumes good faith in the future does not seek survival above all else, and amounts to “foolish behavior”.

    [...] Given the difficulty of determining how much power is enough for today and tomorrow, great powers recognize that the best way to ensure their security is to achieve hegemony now, thus eliminating any possibility of a challenge by another great power. Only a misguided state would pass up an opportunity to be the hegemon in the system because it thought it already had sufficient power to survive
     
    Norway is not being made stronger by taking in immigrants, but it is not going to be disabused unless it gets a threat it can recognise.

    That won’t be easy. No one wants to be a “bad” person, and in a conformist society like Norway a rule-breaker is “bad” no matter how stupid the rule may seem. As long as the rule is affirmed and never challenged, people will obey and make others obey. Only when enough people challenge it—openly and defiantly—will the moral consensus weaken and collapse. To get from here to there will be difficult but it can be done. Rules of sexual morality were deconstructed. Why not antiracism?
     
    It is like a bird realising that its nest contains a cuckoo egg, if the cuckoo chick has been removed when their mother comes back to check, the genuine chicks are attacked. It's safer to go along.

    Nation states can’t survive in perpetual peace, that much is now clear. Rich countries have a population that feels secure. Immigration is not seen as an external threat, that is why other nations occupying Norwegians’ land it is not reacted to like the prospect f an invasion from another state. A real threat from a foreign state would not be ignored even if it was very tenuous, like the Russian one is. People have frequently suspected the government of creating false threats.

    Here’s an example of this sort of thing from the “nation-state” of Texas:

    “ISIS Has Threatened My Motherland The Great Republic Of Texas & My Warning To Them”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/03/us-europe-migrants-arctic-idUSKCN0R325N20150903

    The funny thing is that Norway can't perceive the flow of "refugees" (who will never go home of course) being facilitated by Russia as the attack on Norway that is probably in retaliation for Norwegian sanctions .


    http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/20/a-very-cold-war-on-the-russia-norway-border-syrian-refugees-bicycles/ Even some of Norway’s more Russian-friendly politicians and analysts have begun accusing Moscow of facilitating the sudden surge in asylum-seekers as retribution for sanctions over the Ukraine conflict, a claim Russia denies.
     
    Assad would like the young men of the troublesome Sunni majority population to leave, and dry up the rebel FSA recuits. Islamic State was probably created by Assad partially as a a way of creating an exodus of refugees. Mobilised third world populations are the century's secret weapons against the indigenous West, and it's not just foreign elites who are glad.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I read an hypothesis once that St George’s father may have been an officer in the Roman Army.

    “Survival of our values has come to be seen as paramount”.
    That’s a good point Sean. Survival of an idea not a people. But it isn’t European values that are being preserved. Europeans are not naturally integrationists; hence sites like this. Why are the English so weighed down by hate legislation? Answer: because the English have always been rude about anyone who isn’t English. Hence the need for hate (rude actually) speech legislation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    I don't know that there is really a great anti-immigrant feeling in Britain among socially concerned people. I have heard extreme anger by gentle Scots against tiny isolated far right type marches locally, especially in the aftermath on the Paris attack, apparently because the common indigenous population are regarded as not really holding British values and liable to go berserk at the drop of a hat. I think laws targeting indigenous community are there because the much trumpeted values are thought to be a veneer. The establishment position is that the values are the thing that makes the world go round, while genetic differences around the world are supposed to be due to drift.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    Nation states can't survive in perpetual peace, that much is now clear. Rich countries have a population that feels secure. Immigration is not seen as an external threat, that is why other nations occupying Norwegians' land it is not reacted to like the prospect f an invasion from another state. A real threat from a foreign state would not be ignored even if it was very tenuous, like the Russian one is. People have frequently suspected the government of creating false threats.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Report_from_Iron_Mountain (1967)The heavily footnoted report concluded that peace was not in the interest of a stable society, that even if lasting peace "could be achieved, it would almost certainly not be in the best interests of society to achieve it." War was a part of the economy. Therefore, it was necessary to conceive a state of war for a stable economy. The government, the group theorized, would not exist without war, and nation states existed in order to wage war. War also served a vital function of diverting collective aggression. They recommended that bodies be created to emulate the economic functions of war. They also recommended "blood games" and that the government create alternative foes that would scare the people with reports of alien life-forms and out-of-control pollution.
     
    The foe has become the majority of the population, whose ethnic homogeneity makes them potentially a rival power base. Moreover they not needed as cannon fodder and are blaise. The foreign immigrants are the new friends of the elite and the state, and the social capital of immigrants is boosted by claiming they are the subject of prejudice and discrimination. Mark my words, Jihadist terror attacks are creating a massive surveillance and a disaster for indigenous nationalists, who will become the threat that the security apparatus will be turned on.

    There is some hope howerver:_


    http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/?p=451 First, both assume that the end of the Cold War did in fact represent a critical turning point in history. Either such as marked the end of one kind of conflict and the beginning of another (Huntington); or that represented the beginning of a process which would eventually culminate in a world without war and thus to the End of History (Fukuyama).

    Second and perhaps even more important, both focus on what, for lack of a better term, I shall call spiritual factors. For Fukuyama, the paramount one is ideology. For Huntington, it is identity. In doing so they leave out any other number of factors that have always led, and presumably will continue to lead, to war in the future too. Chief among them are technological developments; competition for economic resources in a world where such resources are said to become less and less plentiful; and, over-arching everything else, the “perpetual and restless desire for power after power that ceaseth only in death” (Thomas Hobbes). The least one can say is that, in any attempt to understand the future of war, these factors must take a paramount place side by side with those Fukuyama and Huntington have focused on.
     

    As Mearsheimer (who advised Ukraine to have an independent nuclear deterrent andpredicted Ukraine's troubles if it didn't 20 years before the event) says, negative consequences flow from “ policy that assumes good faith in the future does not seek survival above all else, and amounts to “foolish behavior”.

    [...] Given the difficulty of determining how much power is enough for today and tomorrow, great powers recognize that the best way to ensure their security is to achieve hegemony now, thus eliminating any possibility of a challenge by another great power. Only a misguided state would pass up an opportunity to be the hegemon in the system because it thought it already had sufficient power to survive
     
    Norway is not being made stronger by taking in immigrants, but it is not going to be disabused unless it gets a threat it can recognise.

    That won’t be easy. No one wants to be a “bad” person, and in a conformist society like Norway a rule-breaker is “bad” no matter how stupid the rule may seem. As long as the rule is affirmed and never challenged, people will obey and make others obey. Only when enough people challenge it—openly and defiantly—will the moral consensus weaken and collapse. To get from here to there will be difficult but it can be done. Rules of sexual morality were deconstructed. Why not antiracism?
     
    It is like a bird realising that its nest contains a cuckoo egg, if the cuckoo chick has been removed when their mother comes back to check, the genuine chicks are attacked. It's safer to go along.

    Immigration is not seen as an external threat, that is why other nations occupying Norwegians’ land it is not reacted to like the prospect f an invasion from another state. A real threat from a foreign state would not be ignored even if it was very tenuous, like the Russian one is.

    Here’s an example of this sort of thing from the “nation-state” of Texas:

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @TB
    The churches were burnt because they were built without permission on holy ground. Simple as that.

    The strange thing now is that what science seems to support (ie having a bias for the survival of your kind), which must be natural if that word has meaning, is seen as nihilistic. Survival of our values has come to be seen as paramount, while thoughts of biological continuation are supposed to be due to a virulent myth that is especially endemic among north Europeans.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factory"] says: • Website
    @Truth



    We must say WE ARE PROUD TO BE RACE-IST,
     
    I agree totally, Prissy. As a matter of fact, I think you should start the ball rolling bright and early Monday morning, by sending a mass email stating such to your entire company.

    Bro, YOU'RE MADD AS HELLL AND YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!

    “As a matter of fact, I think you should start the ball rolling bright and early Monday morning, by sending a mass email stating such to your entire company.”

    Ni**a, you mus’ be craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazy.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I used to listen to black metal (I occasionally still do), and read a lot of interviews, and the only musician I can name who even brought up immigration is Varg Vikernes, and I think even he only brought it up several years later, already in prison. In other words, I don’t think immigration was much on the minds of these musicians.

    In Norway, it is difficult to discuss immigration openly, other than in economic or humanitarian terms. With black metal, there is the added problem that the lyrics are difficult to decipher. But the immigration issue does come up in SWNBM (Second Wave Norwegian Black Metal):

    Those convicted for church burnings showed no remorse and described their actions as a symbolic “retaliation” against Christianity in Norway.[60] Mayhem drummer Hellhammer said he had called for attacks on mosques and Hindu temples, on the basis that they were more foreign.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Norwegian_black_metal_scene

    Blomberg, the drummer of the band Mayhem, for example, drew parallels between ‘races’ and different types of animals, positing rigid taxonomic categories of human beings: I’m pretty convinced that there are differences between races as well as anything else. I think that like animals some races are more […] you know, like a cat is much more intelligent than a bird or a cow, or even a dog, and I think that’s also the case with different races. (Moynihan and Søderlind, 2003: 352).

    http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/cross_fac/iatl/reinvention/issues/volume3issue2/fung/

    SWNBM’s zealous romantic vision of Viking and Pagan past leads to aversion towards institutionalised religions in contemporary Norwegian society. Many SWNBM musicians overtly oppose Christianity in particular ‘for its association with corrupt and hypocritical churches’ (Kahn-Harris, 2007: 38). Symbols and images associated with Satanism thus frequently adorn merchandise and artistic contents of SWNBN as a manifestation of such sentiment. Additionally, anti-Christian imagery, as argued by Kahn-Harris (2007), also represents an indiscriminate opposition towards organised religion in general: ‘Norway, like the rest of Europe, is under Judeo-Christian law. This murderous faith forced our ancestors to convert to a religion imported from the desert. We’re not Hebrews, we are Indo-Europeans and thus we want a European spirituality’ (Gungnir, cited in Moynihan and Søderlind, 2003: 356). The ideas presented in Gungnir’s comment are comparable to the notion of ‘cultural fundamentalism’, which conceives cultural and ethnic differences as insuperable, whether in Islam, Christianity or Judaism (Taylor, 2008: 6). Instead of ‘hierarchical judgements of inferiority and superiority’, the opposition towards multiculturalism is justified on the basis of cultural incompatibility, thus espousing a zero-sum relationship between the ‘authentic’ Norwegian cultural identity purported by SWNBM and other ‘foreign’ religions and cultures (Goldberg, 1999: 367). SWNBM’s disdain for multiculturalism and universalism is aptly illustrated in the following statement by Daoloth: ‘a Europe for Europeans as it was in ancient times, before multi-culturalism and universalism were adopted as the official political/religious stance’ (Moynihan and Søderlind, 2003: 354).

    http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/cross_fac/iatl/reinvention/issues/volume3issue2/fung/

    Varg Vikernes has been accused of being responsible for the church burnings. The wiki describes his ideological background as follows:

    Through his writings he promotes a neo-völkisch ideology (Odalism) based on the idea that White Europeans should re-adopt native European values, including elements of traditional paganism. He advocates White nationalism, social conservatism, and survivalism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varg_Vikernes

    Well that is now over. The emperor is naked. We now witness Sweden collapse and laugh halfheartedly ’cause we know we’re up next

    The emperor is naked, but people won’t acknowledge his nakedness until others start pointing it out.

    His Father was God.

    Spiritually, yes. But genetically? I assume he was a man and had a Y chromosome. Did he inherit it from God? If there’s one thing that everyone agreed on during the time of Jesus, it’s that Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Who do you believe was Jesus's real father? Is there a possibility it was a white European male?
    , @Anonymous
    Peter,

    Are you Unitarian in your beliefs? I think you mentioned in the past that you were a member of the United Church, which from what I understand is, or at least was, a Trinitarian, Mainline Protestant denomination.
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  • @TB
    Please leave Europe. Bye bye.

    Did some decades ago.

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  • @Peter Frost
    To all these frustrated teens who are burning churches, there is a better option—hand out flyers to all people pointing out that Jewsus never existed. (...) And start a group or a temple to revive old European ancient religions of our ancestors, such as Odinism, etc.

    That isn't a realistic goal. Most Christians feel deeply attached to their faith, and that isn't going to change any time soon. I no longer go to Church, and yet I still identify as a Christian and still regularly read the Bible. If I renounced my Christian identity, I would be renouncing part of myself.

    I agree that Christians need to adopt a more critical attitude toward those who speak in their name. Ironically, this is the criticism we love to level at Muslims: "Why don't you denounce those who speak in your name? Your silence is acquiescence."

    To Norwegians, I would offer the following advice:

    1. Please use your right to vote. You have an option at the ballot box. Use it.

    2. Denounce the people who speak in your name. Calmly and sobrely. There's no need to combat outrageousness with outrageousness.

    A direct result of the heresies of Lutheranism.

    No, we are seeing similar stupidity with many good Roman Catholics. And this is not a time for fomenting stupid divisions among ourselves.

    Norway didn’t exist as a country until 1904. It would help if you familiarized yourself with the basics of Norwegian history.

    It existed as an independent country before its union with Denmark. It also inherited certain overseas claims after it left that union, such as the claim to East Greenland. In any case, my point was that Scandinavians have no reason to feel guilt over slavery and colonialism. Yet they do.

    Stronger individualism, but more effective consensus-forcing? This is a total logical contradiction.

    No. The U.S. is very individualistic, yet ostracism for deviant thinking is actually stronger there than in many countries, like France. The U.S. doesn't need anti-hate laws; this kind of repression is carried out at the grassroots level by just about everyone --- your neighbor, your employer, even your wife and children. Toqueville discussed this point at length, and it's still true today.

    By individualism, I mean a lack of kinship ties, and a strong tendency to see oneself as an autonomous being, rather than as part of larger kin-based entities (family, kin group, ethny, etc.). In a society with strong kinship ties, social rules are enforced by reciprocial kin obligations. And if you don't honor those obligations, your kin will remind you ... nicely at first, and then not so nicely.

    wasn’t the universalism of Christianity strictly one of mission and conversion, of spreading the gospel, in which only a minority would be saved? For the rest, the vast majority, there would be gnashing of teeth in outer darkness? I don’t recall Jesus being ecumenical.

    The term "ecumenical" is anochronistic for the time of Jesus. One can say that he wanted to reform Judaism so that everyone would be accepted. As a mamzer and a never-married man, his place within the Jewish faith was very marginal. It's also possible that his father was not of Jewish origin, and that would have made him even more marginal.

    Medieval Christianity promised salvation to all believers. You may be thinking of the doctrine of predestination, which was a minority belief even within Protestantism.

    The US Army did not shoot all the professors in Europe and replace them with Yankee carpetbaggers, but the prestige of conquest is such that it might as well have”

    It wasn't necessarily conquest. Even allied and neutral countries became Americanized after the war. At the time, it made sense. The Americans seemed to be doing everything right. They were more modern, more advanced, more scientific, and more "with it" than the rest of us. Canadians felt the same way. We looked up to the U.S. as a model to follow and began to feel ashamed of our association with Great Britain.

    It’s also possible that his father was not of Jewish origin, and that would have made him even more marginal.

    His Father was God.

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  • @TB
    The fellow musician, named Aarseth, was not good. He took pictures of Per Ohlin after Per killed himself and used it in a commercial way to sell more records. That is the opposite of honour. If you listen to the interviews Aarseth gave, you will quickly find out he's fake.

    This tune might be the peak of Burzum:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=830xNRZg3Fo

    So, Burzum records robots having a gargling contest?

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  • @WhatEvvs
    Breivik was nuts, but his account of growing up strikes me as pretty typical of growing up white (i.e. default "no identity") in a racially hostile environment, where the so-called other does have an identity. So why not quote him?

    That account of his youth also struck me as very plausible.

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  • @TB
    Varg is actually a really funny guy, who doesn't take himself too seriously, but he is well respected and has honour. He just finished and published a mythical role playing game, called MYFAROG. His music speaks for itself.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR5KiiMzgDw

    I know, I know : “De gustibus no est disputandum”, but Varg’s metal is where it’s at (if you’re open to weird metal music, that is). His keyboard stuff is abominable.

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  • @Yngvar

    Yet, today, the average Norwegian feels more guilt over having white skin and more deference toward dark-skinned people than do citizens of most European countries, including former colonial powers.
     
    Norway's claim to shame is about centuries of maltreatment of the Sámi, the indigenous people of the north.

    Sami are no more indigenous than any other Euro groups. They’re all descended from ancient Europeans. Genetically, the Sami look very similar to Russians–and no one says the Russians are “indigenous” but the Norwegians aren’t.

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  • @Seraphim
    @Emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire.

    No, he did not. The repetition of this myth only demonstrates the ignorance of all pretended "historians" of Europe.
    As an aside. The "nordic peoples" are in fact outsiders of European civilization.

    Please leave Europe. Bye bye.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Did some decades ago.
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  • @TB
    That is true, Europe used to be European. A little Christmas story about how Christianity made its way. Summarised from Vlasis Rassias’ book “DEMOLISH THEM..”, published in Greek, Athens 2000 (2nd edition), Anichti Poli Editions, ISBN 960-7748-20-4:

    314
    Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks the Gentiles: The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

    324
    Emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire. At Dydima, Asia Minor, he sacks the Oracle of God Apollo and tortures its Pagan priests to death. He also evicts the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all local Hellenic Temples.

    326
    Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc.

    330
    Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the Pagan Temples in Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.

    335
    Constantine sacks many Pagan Temples of Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers”. Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatros.

    341
    Emperor Constas, son of Constantinus, persecutes “all the soothsayers and the Hellenists”. Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

    346
    New large – scale persecutions against the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as… “magician”.

    353
    An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifices and “idols”.

    354
    A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Pagan priests. First burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed Pagan Temples. A large part of Sacred Gentile architecture is turned into lime.

    356
    A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all “idolaters”.

    357
    Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).

    359
    In Skythopolis, Syria, Christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.

    361 to 363
    Religious tolerance and restoration of Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.

    363
    Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).

    364
    Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination (“sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi uriositas”). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, even private ones.

    365
    An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids Gentile officers of the army to command christian soldiers.

    370
    Emperor Valens orders a tremendous persecution of Gentiles throughout the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other Pagans, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of cities of the Eastern Empire. All friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.

    372
    Emperor Valens orders the governor of Asia Minor to exterminate the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom.

    373
    New prohibition of all methods of Divination. The term “Pagan” (pagani, villagers) is introduced by the christians to lessen the Gentiles.

    375
    The Temple of God Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down.

    380
    On 27th February, Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that “all the various nations, which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion, which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter”. Non-christians are called “loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind”. In another edict Theodosius calls “insane” those that do not believe in the christian god and outlaws all disagreements with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the Pagan Temples of his area. Christian priests lead the mob against the Temple of Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius, ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.

    381
    On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives all rights of christians that return to the Pagan Religion. Throughout the Eastern Empire, Pagan Temples and Libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws even simple visits to the Temples of the Hellenes. In Constantinople, the Temple of Goddess Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the Temples of Sun and Artemis into stables.

    382
    “Hellelu-jah” (Glory to Yahweh) is imposed in the christian mass.

    384
    Emperor Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect, Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated christian, to cooperate with the local bishops and destroy the Temples of the Gentiles in Northern Greece and Asia Minor.

    385 to 388
    Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop, “Saint” Marcellus with his gangs scour the countryside, sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic Temples, shrines and altars. Amongst others they destroy the Temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the Temple of Zeus in Apamea, the Temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the Temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent Gentiles from all sides of the Empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.

    386
    Emperor Theodosius outlaws (16th June) the care of sacked Pagan Temples.

    388
    Public talks on religious subjects are also outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous Epistle “Pro Templis” to Theodosius, with a hope that the few remaining Hellenic Temples will be respected and spared.

    389 to 390
    All non-christian calenders are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood into Middle Eastern and Egyptian cities, destroying statues, altars, Libraries and Pagan Temples, whilst Gentiles are lynched. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesques the Pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The christian mob profanes the cult images.

    391
    On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to Pagan Temples but also looking at vandalised statues. New heavy persecutions all around the Empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Gentiles, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights, finally lock themselves inside the fortified Temple of God Serapis (The Serapeion). After a violent siege, the christians occupy the building, demolish it, burn its famous Library and profane the cult images.

    392
    On 8th November, the Emperor Theodosius outlaws all non-christian rituals and names them “superstitions of the Gentiles” (“gentilicia superstitio”). New full scale persecutions against the Gentiles. The Mysteries of Samothrace are ended and priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop, “Saints” Epiphanius and Tychon destroy almost all the Temples of the island and exterminate thousands of Gentiles. The local Mysteries of Goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius’ edict declares: “the ones that won’t obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living on the island”. The Gentiles revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis, Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.

    393
    The Pythian, Aktia and Olympic Games are outlawed as part of the Hellenic “idolatry”. Christians sack the Temples of Olympia.

    395
    Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) lead to new persecutions against the Gentiles. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius directs the hordes of the baptised Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the Hellenes. Encouraged by christian monks, the barbarians sack and burn many cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable Hellenes and burn the Temples. Among others, they burn down the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all of its priests (including the hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

    396
    On 7th December, a new edict by Emperor Arcadius orders that Paganism be treated as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining Pagan priests and hierophants.

    397
    “Demolish them!” Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all the still erect Pagan Temples demolished.

    398
    The Fourth Church Council of Carthage prohibits to all, including its bishops, the study of Gentile books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, demolishes almost all the Pagan Temples of his city (except nine of them that remain active).

    399
    With a new edict (13th July) Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining Temples, mainly in the countryside, to be immediately demolished: «Si qua in agris templa sunt, sine turba ac tumultu diruantur. His enim deiectis atque sublatis omnis superstitioni materia consumetur»

    400
    Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of God Dionysus in Vesai and baptises all the Gentiles of this area.

    401
    The christian mob of Carthage lynches Gentiles and destroys Temples and “idols”. In Gaza too, the local bishop, also a..,”Saint”, Porphyrius sends his followers to lynch Gentiles and demolish the remaining nine still active Temples of the city. The 15th Council of Chalkedon orders all christians that still keep good relations with their gentile relatives to be excommunicated (even after their death).

    405
    John Chrysostom sends his hordes of gray-clad monks armed with clubs and iron bars to destroy the “idols” in all the cities of Palestine.

    406
    John Chrysostom collects funds from rich christian women to financially support the demolition of the Hellenic Temples. In Ephessus, he orders the destruction of the famous Temple of Goddess Artemis. In Salamis, Cyprus, “Saints” Epiphanius and Eutychius continue persecutions of the Gentiles and the total destruction of their Temples and sanctuaries.

    407
    A new edict outlaws once more all non-christian acts of worship.

    408
    The Emperor of the Western Empire Honorius and the Emperor of the Eastern Empire Arcadius, order together that all sculptures of the Pagan Temples be either destroyed or confiscated. Private ownership of Pagan sculpture is also outlawed. The local bishops lead new heavy persecutions against Gentiles and new book burning. Judges showing pity for Gentiles are also persecuted.

    409
    Once again, an edict orders Astrology and all methods of Divination to be punished by death.

    415
    In Alexandria, Egypt, the mob urged by the bishop Cyrillus, attacks a few days before the judaeo-christian Pascha (Pesach-Easter) and hacks to pieces the famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. Pieces of her body are paraded by the christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, and are finally burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron. On 30th August, new persecutions start against all the Pagan priests of North Africa, who end their lives either crucified or burned alive.

    416
    The inquisitor Hypatius, alias “The Sword of God”, exterminates the last Gentiles of Bithynia. In Constantinople (7th December), all non-christian army officers, public employees and judges are dismissed.

    423
    Emperor Theodosius II, declares (8th June) that the Religion of the Gentiles is nothing more than “demon worship” and orders all those who persist in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and tortured.

    429
    The Temple of Goddess Athena (Parthenon) on the Acropolis of Athens is sacked. Athenian Pagans are persecuted.

    435
    On 14th November, a new edict by Theodosius II orders the death penalty for all “heretics” and “pagans” of the Empire. Only Judaism is considered a legal non-christian Religion.

    438
    Theodosius II issues an new edict (31st January) against the Gentiles, incriminating their “idolatry” as the reason for a recent
    plague!

    440 to 450
    The christians demolish all the monuments, altars and Temples of Athens, Olympia, and other Greek cities.

    448
    Theodosius II orders all non-christian books burned.

    450
    All the Temples of Aphrodisias (City of Goddess Aphrodite) are demolished and its Libraries burned down. The city is renamed Stauroupolis (City of the Cross).

    451
    A new edict by Theodosius II (4th November) emphasises that “idolatry” is to be punished by death.

    457 to 491
    Sporadic persecutions against Gentiles of the Eastern Empire. Among others, the physician Jacobus and the philosopher Gessius are executed. Severianus, Herestios, Zosimus, Isidorus and others are tortured and imprisoned. The proselytiser Conon and his followers exterminate the last Gentiles of the island of Imbros, in the northeast Aegean. The last worshippers of Lavranius Zeus are exterminated in Cyprus.

    482 to 488
    The majority of the Gentiles of Asia Minor are exterminated, after a desperate revolt against the Emperor and the Church.

    486
    More “underground” Pagan priests are discovered, arrested, burlesqued, tortured and executed in Alexandria, Egypt.

    515
    Baptism becomes obligatory, even for those that already say they are christian. The Emperor of Constantinople, Anastasius orders the massacre of the Gentiles in the Arabian city Zoara and the demolition of the Temple of local God Theandrites.

    528
    Emperor Jutprada (Justinianus) outlaws the “alternative” Olympian Games of Antioch. He also orders the execution (by fire, crucifixion, tearing to pieces by wild beasts, or cutting by iron nails) of all who practice “sorcery, divination, magic or idolatry” and prohibits all teachings by the Gentiles (“..the ones suffering from the blasphemous insanity of the Hellenes”).

    529
    Emperor Justinianus outlaws the Athenian Philosophical Academy, which has its property confiscated.

    532
    The inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus, a fanatical monk, leads a crusade against the Gentiles of Asia Minor.

    542
    Emperor Justinianus allows the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus to convert the Gentiles of Phrygia, Caria and Lydia in Asia Minor. Within 35 years of this crusade, 99 churches and 12 monasteries are built on the sites of demolished Pagan Temples.

    546
    Hundreds of Gentiles are put to death in Constantinople by the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus.

    556
    Justinianus orders the notorious inquisitor Amantius to go to Antioch, to find, arrest, torture and exterminate the last Gentiles of the city and burn all the private libraries down.

    562
    Mass arrests, burlesquing, tortures, imprisonments and executions of Gentile Hellenes in Athens, Antioch, Palmyra and Constantinople.

    578 to 582
    Christians torture and crucify Gentile Hellenes all around the Eastern Empire, and exterminate the last Gentiles of Heliopolis
    (Baalbek).

    580
    Christian inquisitors attack a secret Temple of Zeus in Antioch. The priest commits suicide, but the other Gentiles are arrested. All the prisoners, the Vice Governor Anatolius included, are tortured and sent to Constantinople to face trial. Sentenced to death they are thrown to the lions. The wild animals are unwilling to tear them to pieces and they end up crucified. Their corpses are dragged through the streets by the christian mob and afterwards thrown unburied in the city dump.

    583

    New persecutions against the Gentile Hellenes by the Emperor Mauricius.

    590
    Throughout the Eastern Empire, christian accusers “discover” Pagan conspiracies. A new wave of torture and executions erupts.

    692
    The “Penthekte” Council of Constantinople prohibits the remains of Calends, Brumalia, Anthesteria, and other Pagan / Dionysian festivals.

    804
    The Gentile Hellenes of Laconia, Greece, resist successfully the attempt of Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople, to convert them to Christianity.

    950 to 988
    Violent conversion of the last Gentile Hellenes of Laconia by the Armenian “Saint” Nikon.

    @Emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire.

    No, he did not. The repetition of this myth only demonstrates the ignorance of all pretended “historians” of Europe.
    As an aside. The “nordic peoples” are in fact outsiders of European civilization.

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    • Replies: @TB
    Please leave Europe. Bye bye.
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  • Hi there, Peter.

    I really enjoy your writing, and I’m always looking forward to new words from you. Let me tell you about something funny that took place in Norway after the Paris-situation sametime as we were saturated with young, stupid, strangerly, angry men our women liked to call children. Well that is now over. The emperor is naked. We now witness Sweden collapse and laugh halfheartedly ’cause we know we’re up next, and suddenly the people the stupid ruling people liked to use their mediapower to try to crush, get access and the people hear them. The tone has changed dramatically. It is now suddenly ok to do some simple math, and show plainly and simply that this is crazyness. Like Hege Storhaug, a brave woman, hated by the feminists and marxists. She ‘s now close to winning the title ” The name of the year” in VG , a stupid paper, but of course they’ll rig it so somebody else wins it, but it doesn’t really matter, she’s already won, but the MSM-press still doesn’t understand that their time is gone. Normal people are no longer scared by the traitors and wont keep their mouth shut any longer. It’s actually kind of nice;)

    Document.no is the only real source of information you should use as a source to understand Norway, and they are Christian. The editors name is Hans Rustad and he is an honourable man. Well, me as a pagan, I still donate 30 pounds a month to them because they are not lying. I don’t care about their religion or their Israel-support as long as they keep delivering the thruth.

    I wish you a merry Christmas and also to the rest of the Unz-writers and of course to the chief editor Ron Unz.

    You are doing a really important job, and we are lucky to read the benefits.

    One love

    TB

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  • @Rich
    Not just the North, Romans were forcibly converted to Christianity, too.

    That is true, Europe used to be European. A little Christmas story about how Christianity made its way. Summarised from Vlasis Rassias’ book “DEMOLISH THEM..”, published in Greek, Athens 2000 (2nd edition), Anichti Poli Editions, ISBN 960-7748-20-4:

    314
    Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks the Gentiles: The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

    324
    Emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire. At Dydima, Asia Minor, he sacks the Oracle of God Apollo and tortures its Pagan priests to death. He also evicts the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all local Hellenic Temples.

    [MORE]

    326
    Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc.

    330
    Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the Pagan Temples in Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.

    335
    Constantine sacks many Pagan Temples of Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers”. Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatros.

    341
    Emperor Constas, son of Constantinus, persecutes “all the soothsayers and the Hellenists”. Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

    346
    New large – scale persecutions against the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as… “magician”.

    353
    An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifices and “idols”.

    354
    A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Pagan priests. First burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed Pagan Temples. A large part of Sacred Gentile architecture is turned into lime.

    356
    A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all “idolaters”.

    357
    Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).

    359
    In Skythopolis, Syria, Christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.

    361 to 363
    Religious tolerance and restoration of Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.

    363
    Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).

    364
    Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination (“sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi uriositas”). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, even private ones.

    365
    An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids Gentile officers of the army to command christian soldiers.

    370
    Emperor Valens orders a tremendous persecution of Gentiles throughout the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other Pagans, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of cities of the Eastern Empire. All friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.

    372
    Emperor Valens orders the governor of Asia Minor to exterminate the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom.

    373
    New prohibition of all methods of Divination. The term “Pagan” (pagani, villagers) is introduced by the christians to lessen the Gentiles.

    375
    The Temple of God Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down.

    380
    On 27th February, Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that “all the various nations, which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion, which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter”. Non-christians are called “loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind”. In another edict Theodosius calls “insane” those that do not believe in the christian god and outlaws all disagreements with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the Pagan Temples of his area. Christian priests lead the mob against the Temple of Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius, ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.

    381
    On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives all rights of christians that return to the Pagan Religion. Throughout the Eastern Empire, Pagan Temples and Libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws even simple visits to the Temples of the Hellenes. In Constantinople, the Temple of Goddess Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the Temples of Sun and Artemis into stables.

    382
    “Hellelu-jah” (Glory to Yahweh) is imposed in the christian mass.

    384
    Emperor Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect, Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated christian, to cooperate with the local bishops and destroy the Temples of the Gentiles in Northern Greece and Asia Minor.

    385 to 388
    Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop, “Saint” Marcellus with his gangs scour the countryside, sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic Temples, shrines and altars. Amongst others they destroy the Temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the Temple of Zeus in Apamea, the Temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the Temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent Gentiles from all sides of the Empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.

    386
    Emperor Theodosius outlaws (16th June) the care of sacked Pagan Temples.

    388
    Public talks on religious subjects are also outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous Epistle “Pro Templis” to Theodosius, with a hope that the few remaining Hellenic Temples will be respected and spared.

    389 to 390
    All non-christian calenders are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood into Middle Eastern and Egyptian cities, destroying statues, altars, Libraries and Pagan Temples, whilst Gentiles are lynched. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesques the Pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The christian mob profanes the cult images.

    391
    On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to Pagan Temples but also looking at vandalised statues. New heavy persecutions all around the Empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Gentiles, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights, finally lock themselves inside the fortified Temple of God Serapis (The Serapeion). After a violent siege, the christians occupy the building, demolish it, burn its famous Library and profane the cult images.

    392
    On 8th November, the Emperor Theodosius outlaws all non-christian rituals and names them “superstitions of the Gentiles” (“gentilicia superstitio”). New full scale persecutions against the Gentiles. The Mysteries of Samothrace are ended and priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop, “Saints” Epiphanius and Tychon destroy almost all the Temples of the island and exterminate thousands of Gentiles. The local Mysteries of Goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius’ edict declares: “the ones that won’t obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living on the island”. The Gentiles revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis, Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.

    393
    The Pythian, Aktia and Olympic Games are outlawed as part of the Hellenic “idolatry”. Christians sack the Temples of Olympia.

    395
    Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) lead to new persecutions against the Gentiles. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius directs the hordes of the baptised Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the Hellenes. Encouraged by christian monks, the barbarians sack and burn many cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable Hellenes and burn the Temples. Among others, they burn down the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all of its priests (including the hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

    396
    On 7th December, a new edict by Emperor Arcadius orders that Paganism be treated as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining Pagan priests and hierophants.

    397
    “Demolish them!” Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all the still erect Pagan Temples demolished.

    398
    The Fourth Church Council of Carthage prohibits to all, including its bishops, the study of Gentile books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, demolishes almost all the Pagan Temples of his city (except nine of them that remain active).

    399
    With a new edict (13th July) Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining Temples, mainly in the countryside, to be immediately demolished: «Si qua in agris templa sunt, sine turba ac tumultu diruantur. His enim deiectis atque sublatis omnis superstitioni materia consumetur»

    400
    Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of God Dionysus in Vesai and baptises all the Gentiles of this area.

    401
    The christian mob of Carthage lynches Gentiles and destroys Temples and “idols”. In Gaza too, the local bishop, also a..,”Saint”, Porphyrius sends his followers to lynch Gentiles and demolish the remaining nine still active Temples of the city. The 15th Council of Chalkedon orders all christians that still keep good relations with their gentile relatives to be excommunicated (even after their death).

    405
    John Chrysostom sends his hordes of gray-clad monks armed with clubs and iron bars to destroy the “idols” in all the cities of Palestine.

    406
    John Chrysostom collects funds from rich christian women to financially support the demolition of the Hellenic Temples. In Ephessus, he orders the destruction of the famous Temple of Goddess Artemis. In Salamis, Cyprus, “Saints” Epiphanius and Eutychius continue persecutions of the Gentiles and the total destruction of their Temples and sanctuaries.

    407
    A new edict outlaws once more all non-christian acts of worship.

    408
    The Emperor of the Western Empire Honorius and the Emperor of the Eastern Empire Arcadius, order together that all sculptures of the Pagan Temples be either destroyed or confiscated. Private ownership of Pagan sculpture is also outlawed. The local bishops lead new heavy persecutions against Gentiles and new book burning. Judges showing pity for Gentiles are also persecuted.

    409
    Once again, an edict orders Astrology and all methods of Divination to be punished by death.

    415
    In Alexandria, Egypt, the mob urged by the bishop Cyrillus, attacks a few days before the judaeo-christian Pascha (Pesach-Easter) and hacks to pieces the famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. Pieces of her body are paraded by the christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, and are finally burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron. On 30th August, new persecutions start against all the Pagan priests of North Africa, who end their lives either crucified or burned alive.

    416
    The inquisitor Hypatius, alias “The Sword of God”, exterminates the last Gentiles of Bithynia. In Constantinople (7th December), all non-christian army officers, public employees and judges are dismissed.

    423
    Emperor Theodosius II, declares (8th June) that the Religion of the Gentiles is nothing more than “demon worship” and orders all those who persist in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and tortured.

    429
    The Temple of Goddess Athena (Parthenon) on the Acropolis of Athens is sacked. Athenian Pagans are persecuted.

    435
    On 14th November, a new edict by Theodosius II orders the death penalty for all “heretics” and “pagans” of the Empire. Only Judaism is considered a legal non-christian Religion.

    438
    Theodosius II issues an new edict (31st January) against the Gentiles, incriminating their “idolatry” as the reason for a recent
    plague!

    440 to 450
    The christians demolish all the monuments, altars and Temples of Athens, Olympia, and other Greek cities.

    448
    Theodosius II orders all non-christian books burned.

    450
    All the Temples of Aphrodisias (City of Goddess Aphrodite) are demolished and its Libraries burned down. The city is renamed Stauroupolis (City of the Cross).

    451
    A new edict by Theodosius II (4th November) emphasises that “idolatry” is to be punished by death.

    457 to 491
    Sporadic persecutions against Gentiles of the Eastern Empire. Among others, the physician Jacobus and the philosopher Gessius are executed. Severianus, Herestios, Zosimus, Isidorus and others are tortured and imprisoned. The proselytiser Conon and his followers exterminate the last Gentiles of the island of Imbros, in the northeast Aegean. The last worshippers of Lavranius Zeus are exterminated in Cyprus.

    482 to 488
    The majority of the Gentiles of Asia Minor are exterminated, after a desperate revolt against the Emperor and the Church.

    486
    More “underground” Pagan priests are discovered, arrested, burlesqued, tortured and executed in Alexandria, Egypt.

    515
    Baptism becomes obligatory, even for those that already say they are christian. The Emperor of Constantinople, Anastasius orders the massacre of the Gentiles in the Arabian city Zoara and the demolition of the Temple of local God Theandrites.

    528
    Emperor Jutprada (Justinianus) outlaws the “alternative” Olympian Games of Antioch. He also orders the execution (by fire, crucifixion, tearing to pieces by wild beasts, or cutting by iron nails) of all who practice “sorcery, divination, magic or idolatry” and prohibits all teachings by the Gentiles (“..the ones suffering from the blasphemous insanity of the Hellenes”).

    529
    Emperor Justinianus outlaws the Athenian Philosophical Academy, which has its property confiscated.

    532
    The inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus, a fanatical monk, leads a crusade against the Gentiles of Asia Minor.

    542
    Emperor Justinianus allows the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus to convert the Gentiles of Phrygia, Caria and Lydia in Asia Minor. Within 35 years of this crusade, 99 churches and 12 monasteries are built on the sites of demolished Pagan Temples.

    546
    Hundreds of Gentiles are put to death in Constantinople by the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus.

    556
    Justinianus orders the notorious inquisitor Amantius to go to Antioch, to find, arrest, torture and exterminate the last Gentiles of the city and burn all the private libraries down.

    562
    Mass arrests, burlesquing, tortures, imprisonments and executions of Gentile Hellenes in Athens, Antioch, Palmyra and Constantinople.

    578 to 582
    Christians torture and crucify Gentile Hellenes all around the Eastern Empire, and exterminate the last Gentiles of Heliopolis
    (Baalbek).

    580
    Christian inquisitors attack a secret Temple of Zeus in Antioch. The priest commits suicide, but the other Gentiles are arrested. All the prisoners, the Vice Governor Anatolius included, are tortured and sent to Constantinople to face trial. Sentenced to death they are thrown to the lions. The wild animals are unwilling to tear them to pieces and they end up crucified. Their corpses are dragged through the streets by the christian mob and afterwards thrown unburied in the city dump.

    583

    New persecutions against the Gentile Hellenes by the Emperor Mauricius.

    590
    Throughout the Eastern Empire, christian accusers “discover” Pagan conspiracies. A new wave of torture and executions erupts.

    692
    The “Penthekte” Council of Constantinople prohibits the remains of Calends, Brumalia, Anthesteria, and other Pagan / Dionysian festivals.

    804
    The Gentile Hellenes of Laconia, Greece, resist successfully the attempt of Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople, to convert them to Christianity.

    950 to 988
    Violent conversion of the last Gentile Hellenes of Laconia by the Armenian “Saint” Nikon.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    @Emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire.

    No, he did not. The repetition of this myth only demonstrates the ignorance of all pretended "historians" of Europe.
    As an aside. The "nordic peoples" are in fact outsiders of European civilization.
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  • @Sean
    Christianity contained the rationale for favouring outsiders for a millenia. The churches only made it a tenet of faith requiring action for influencing policy recently. I think that had something to do with intolerance of victories by indigenous working class organisation. The collapse of organised labour and their political influence has gone hand in hand with immigration, and business interests were behind those changes, which were very profitable for them. I think the churches were coopted into being the ideological wing of a project to break the power of labour. By themselves churches are unlikely to come up with such radical changes in the way their long standing religion is understood.

    Maybe the church burners were not thinking of a direct connection between Christianity and replacement immigration, but I think a few realised that the churches were agitating against the interests of the common people of their nation. Religion is effectively a shill for global hypercapitalism now.

    The churches were burnt because they were built without permission on holy ground. Simple as that.

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    • Replies: @Sean
    The strange thing now is that what science seems to support (ie having a bias for the survival of your kind), which must be natural if that word has meaning, is seen as nihilistic. Survival of our values has come to be seen as paramount, while thoughts of biological continuation are supposed to be due to a virulent myth that is especially endemic among north Europeans.
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  • @reiner Tor
    Peter,

    Do you have any actual data to back up your claim that support for immigration played any role in the church burnings or the violent anti-Christian sentiment of the black metal scene in general?

    I used to listen to black metal (I occasionally still do), and read a lot of interviews, and the only musician I can name who even brought up immigration is Varg Vikernes, and I think even he only brought it up several years later, already in prison. In other words, I don't think immigration was much on the minds of these musicians. Or maybe I just didn't pay attention (at the time I didn't care for immigration at all).

    Christianity contained the rationale for favouring outsiders for a millenia. The churches only made it a tenet of faith requiring action for influencing policy recently. I think that had something to do with intolerance of victories by indigenous working class organisation. The collapse of organised labour and their political influence has gone hand in hand with immigration, and business interests were behind those changes, which were very profitable for them. I think the churches were coopted into being the ideological wing of a project to break the power of labour. By themselves churches are unlikely to come up with such radical changes in the way their long standing religion is understood.

    Maybe the church burners were not thinking of a direct connection between Christianity and replacement immigration, but I think a few realised that the churches were agitating against the interests of the common people of their nation. Religion is effectively a shill for global hypercapitalism now.

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    • Replies: @TB
    The churches were burnt because they were built without permission on holy ground. Simple as that.
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  • The fellow musician, named Aarseth, was not good. He took pictures of Per Ohlin after Per killed himself and used it in a commercial way to sell more records. That is the opposite of honour. If you listen to the interviews Aarseth gave, you will quickly find out he’s fake.

    This tune might be the peak of Burzum:

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    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    So, Burzum records robots having a gargling contest?
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  • @TB
    Varg is actually a really funny guy, who doesn't take himself too seriously, but he is well respected and has honour. He just finished and published a mythical role playing game, called MYFAROG. His music speaks for itself.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR5KiiMzgDw

    I’d also sympathize with him a lot, if it weren’t for the fact that he killed his effing fellow musician.

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  • Peter,

    Do you have any actual data to back up your claim that support for immigration played any role in the church burnings or the violent anti-Christian sentiment of the black metal scene in general?

    I used to listen to black metal (I occasionally still do), and read a lot of interviews, and the only musician I can name who even brought up immigration is Varg Vikernes, and I think even he only brought it up several years later, already in prison. In other words, I don’t think immigration was much on the minds of these musicians. Or maybe I just didn’t pay attention (at the time I didn’t care for immigration at all).

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    • Replies: @Sean
    Christianity contained the rationale for favouring outsiders for a millenia. The churches only made it a tenet of faith requiring action for influencing policy recently. I think that had something to do with intolerance of victories by indigenous working class organisation. The collapse of organised labour and their political influence has gone hand in hand with immigration, and business interests were behind those changes, which were very profitable for them. I think the churches were coopted into being the ideological wing of a project to break the power of labour. By themselves churches are unlikely to come up with such radical changes in the way their long standing religion is understood.

    Maybe the church burners were not thinking of a direct connection between Christianity and replacement immigration, but I think a few realised that the churches were agitating against the interests of the common people of their nation. Religion is effectively a shill for global hypercapitalism now.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Good portion of what we identify as ”scientific leftism” is not so different than ”scientific creationism”, i mean, a toxic mixture between scientific narrative, with many partial trues, with a BELIEF/wishfull thinking system.

    Scientific leftism take the best of christianism narrative: ”we are the same”, blablabla, the historical – ”philosophical” component of european liberal revolutions (english, french, russian) and of many genuine scientifical insights as ”evolution/natural selection”.

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  • @Graybeard
    I've always thought the church burnings in Norway had something to do with the relative humourlessness of Scandinavians. People from other countries can be read about Satanism, and be in 'Satanic' bands, but retain an ironical distance. In the humourless north, you have to live the life.

    In interviews, Varg Vikernes speaks about learning from Tolkein with absolute sincerity - as if Lord of the Rings were a religious text.

    Scandinavians are not stupid, but there is an incredible naivety about them - wherever they are on the political spectrum.

    Varg is actually a really funny guy, who doesn’t take himself too seriously, but he is well respected and has honour. He just finished and published a mythical role playing game, called MYFAROG. His music speaks for itself.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I'd also sympathize with him a lot, if it weren't for the fact that he killed his effing fellow musician.
    , @ogunsiron
    I know, I know : "De gustibus no est disputandum", but Varg's metal is where it's at (if you're open to weird metal music, that is). His keyboard stuff is abominable.
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  • To all these frustrated teens who are burning churches, there is a better option—hand out flyers to all people pointing out that Jewsus never existed. (…) And start a group or a temple to revive old European ancient religions of our ancestors, such as Odinism, etc.

    That isn’t a realistic goal. Most Christians feel deeply attached to their faith, and that isn’t going to change any time soon. I no longer go to Church, and yet I still identify as a Christian and still regularly read the Bible. If I renounced my Christian identity, I would be renouncing part of myself.

    I agree that Christians need to adopt a more critical attitude toward those who speak in their name. Ironically, this is the criticism we love to level at Muslims: “Why don’t you denounce those who speak in your name? Your silence is acquiescence.”

    To Norwegians, I would offer the following advice:

    1. Please use your right to vote. You have an option at the ballot box. Use it.

    2. Denounce the people who speak in your name. Calmly and sobrely. There’s no need to combat outrageousness with outrageousness.

    A direct result of the heresies of Lutheranism.

    No, we are seeing similar stupidity with many good Roman Catholics. And this is not a time for fomenting stupid divisions among ourselves.

    Norway didn’t exist as a country until 1904. It would help if you familiarized yourself with the basics of Norwegian history.

    It existed as an independent country before its union with Denmark. It also inherited certain overseas claims after it left that union, such as the claim to East Greenland. In any case, my point was that Scandinavians have no reason to feel guilt over slavery and colonialism. Yet they do.

    Stronger individualism, but more effective consensus-forcing? This is a total logical contradiction.

    No. The U.S. is very individualistic, yet ostracism for deviant thinking is actually stronger there than in many countries, like France. The U.S. doesn’t need anti-hate laws; this kind of repression is carried out at the grassroots level by just about everyone — your neighbor, your employer, even your wife and children. Toqueville discussed this point at length, and it’s still true today.

    By individualism, I mean a lack of kinship ties, and a strong tendency to see oneself as an autonomous being, rather than as part of larger kin-based entities (family, kin group, ethny, etc.). In a society with strong kinship ties, social rules are enforced by reciprocial kin obligations. And if you don’t honor those obligations, your kin will remind you … nicely at first, and then not so nicely.

    wasn’t the universalism of Christianity strictly one of mission and conversion, of spreading the gospel, in which only a minority would be saved? For the rest, the vast majority, there would be gnashing of teeth in outer darkness? I don’t recall Jesus being ecumenical.

    The term “ecumenical” is anochronistic for the time of Jesus. One can say that he wanted to reform Judaism so that everyone would be accepted. As a mamzer and a never-married man, his place within the Jewish faith was very marginal. It’s also possible that his father was not of Jewish origin, and that would have made him even more marginal.

    Medieval Christianity promised salvation to all believers. You may be thinking of the doctrine of predestination, which was a minority belief even within Protestantism.

    The US Army did not shoot all the professors in Europe and replace them with Yankee carpetbaggers, but the prestige of conquest is such that it might as well have”

    It wasn’t necessarily conquest. Even allied and neutral countries became Americanized after the war. At the time, it made sense. The Americans seemed to be doing everything right. They were more modern, more advanced, more scientific, and more “with it” than the rest of us. Canadians felt the same way. We looked up to the U.S. as a model to follow and began to feel ashamed of our association with Great Britain.

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    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    It’s also possible that his father was not of Jewish origin, and that would have made him even more marginal.

    His Father was God.
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  • Racial supremacism of nordics and germans (basically, northern europeans) COMBINED with protestantism (a summarized and more objective christianism***) is to self-cultural preservation among them before judaico-marxism assault while among southern europeans, higher rates of endogamy have filled this need. A racial cultural differentiation (even exageration) among northern europeans had filled the lack of endogamic patterns, i think.

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  • @unpc downunder
    "Hypocrisy, often unconscious, is signal-to-lower cognitive ability, ie, understanding the dominant cultural system and acting ”coherently”. Or it can also be sign to less morality (subjective). "

    Yer right, Latins are obviously primitive wogs like Aristotle and Plato. Clearly their views on political ideology are down to primative hypocrisy and couldn't be anything to do with being part of an older and more mature civilisation.

    My I remind you that sophisticated north Europeans also invented Nazism. They may be good scientists and engineers but they still have a lot to learn about the world of politics.

    Aristotelis and Plato were ”alpine” and ”nordic” is not** :(

    Well, i just quoted Carleton Coon and other older racial anthropologist. Seems epicenter of european civilization had been specially in central Europe, Germany, France and northern Italy.

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  • @jeppo
    Or look on World Value Survey maps. Czech outlier of the same civilisation as Russia?

    All the former communist countries of Central and Eastern Europe cluster together, with the core states of Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria and Montenegro clustering especially closely.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Inglehart-Values-Map-Huge.png

    You'll notice that the Mediterranean-Latin-Catholic nations are tightly grouped as well, from Greece and France down to Portugal and Argentina.

    Protestant Europe and the English-speaking world sandwich Belgium, Luxembourg and Austria to make up the Nordic-Germanic-Protestant bloc.

    Jesus, it so ignorant that I just lack words to express my disdain.

    Maybe you need a thesaurus.

    “All the former communist countries of Central and Eastern Europe cluster togethe”

    No, they don’t. They do not cluster at all. Just measure the distances and look at the discontinuities. Hungary, Lithuania – yes, they cluster. But then you have huge discontinuity and Czechs, Slovenia, Croatia decisively clustering more with western Europe. Poland is clustering more with India/Turkey (absurd, but this is how it looks). UNless you do not understand what “cluster” is.

    Remove the names and colours, give this chart to someone and ask him/her to draw cluster. No way he/she would cluster together all Central and Eastern-Europen Slavic countries together.

    Look at the distance of Czech from Western Germany and Russia. How’s come Czech are outlier or Russia, and not of Western Germany? Look at the Croatia and distance from Spain and from Russia. How’s come it’s outlier of orthodox eastern, not of Latin western civilisation?

    Distance between Poland and Russia is almost the same as between Poland and Czech and Western Germany. And Poland is closer on this map to Spain, Italy, and France. Arguably, on this map Poland is more outlier of Latin civilisation than of orthodox.

    You just decided a priori there are just three civilisation and THEN you decided to fit the data into your prior. If you will see at this map, but also at map at Jayman (e.g. metal band per head, or corruption, or any other) you will not see Poland, or Czech, or Croatia as “outliers” of Alpine Eastern Orthodox civilisation, especially since Poland is neither Alpine (anthropologically, percentage of nordics similar to Germany), nor Orthodox.

    In fact, if you look just at WVS map, you are forced to conclude that France, Belgium, Austria, Great Britain cluster together making core of Europe, while Nordic Countries, Czech, Croatia are outliers from this common core.

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  • @In contrast, Scandinavian, Germanic in general, always seemed very correct in the literal interpretation of biblical teachings

    It is precisely the domain in which they went haywire, like in all their philosophy (except Leibniz). Their so-called high criticism did immeasurable harm. By the way, paving the way for the phantasmagoric “new religions”.

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  • @Santoculto
    Catholic people SPECIALLY latin ones seems very hypocritical about follow (subjective/contextual) moral laws of christianism. just look for description of mediterranean subrace ''character'' to understand this bio-social dynamic, a abrahamic religion acting as blocking of the most ardent sexual urges among mediterranean peoples but not totally.

    In contrast, Scandinavian, Germanic in general, always seemed very correct in the literal interpretation of biblical teachings, before the cultural Marxism. Now they have become the most cohesive in the new religion. Hypocrisy, often unconscious, is signal-to-lower cognitive ability, ie, understanding the dominant cultural system and acting ''coherently''. Or it can also be sign to less morality (subjective). But it may be only a very stereotypical impression of European subraces.

    Eurasian masses seems 'evolved'' exactly like that, i mean, to understand the dominant cultural system and adapting subsequently while true philosophers tend to pervade this border between follow and create/understand/perceive and propose new dimensions of morality/behavior.

    “Hypocrisy, often unconscious, is signal-to-lower cognitive ability, ie, understanding the dominant cultural system and acting ”coherently”. Or it can also be sign to less morality (subjective). ”

    Yer right, Latins are obviously primitive wogs like Aristotle and Plato. Clearly their views on political ideology are down to primative hypocrisy and couldn’t be anything to do with being part of an older and more mature civilisation.

    My I remind you that sophisticated north Europeans also invented Nazism. They may be good scientists and engineers but they still have a lot to learn about the world of politics.

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Aristotelis and Plato were ''alpine'' and ''nordic'' is not** :(

    Well, i just quoted Carleton Coon and other older racial anthropologist. Seems epicenter of european civilization had been specially in central Europe, Germany, France and northern Italy.
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  • @conatus
    The northern north like Norway and the like, seem to me to be Christianized by terror. The very same sort of terror at the same time in the 700s the Muslims were using to Islamasize great stretches of the Mediterranean coast. Actually the terror here was Christian terror used by Charlemagne to tame the Saxons and also terrorize their northern cousins.
    In 782 Charlemagne was pissed at the Saxons so he baptized 4,500 men and then cut off their heads at Verden. Sounds positively Islamic.

    Rodney Stark, who has written a boatload of books on the idea that ‘Christianity is good’ (relatively speaking) has another recent book out titled ‘How the West Won.’(2014) Regarding pre-Christian Europe, especially northern Europe, nowadays few people discuss the beheading of the 4500 Saxons in 782 at Verden in the name of the Prince of Peace. In today’s demographics that is 180,000 hairy dudes. That is a lot of men, who, contrary to our time, were very valuable as a resource in those days. A few years ago I had never heard of Verden and usually understood the success of Christianity as due to its greater guilt generating activities creating more cooperation.

    In this view (just a suggestion in the book) Christianity was imposed in the most brutal fashion on the people of the North, it was a religion they did not want, it was not the doctrine that attracted them, it was the simple idea of living another day that forced them to pay lip service to Jesus. It was a forcible conversion of fear for the people of the North, not a conversion of belief. On p. 97 Stark discusses the idea that the Vikings, a hundred years later, targeted British Monasteries and Monks, not necessarily because they were defenseless but “because they were angry about efforts to Christianize the North. Especially provocative would have been the atrocities committed by Charlemagne, who, for example, had about 4,500 unarmed Saxon captives forcibly baptized and then executed. The Vikings seem to have known that Charlemagne had issued an edict imposing the death sentence on all who tried to resist Christianization.”

    Stark cites a 2009 book by Robert Ferguson for this idea about the Vikings attacking religious centers in England as a sort of revenge, ‘The Vikings, a History,’ p 54.

    So you could look at the Christianization of the North as a forced conversion of terror.

    Stark has written other books on the Christianization of the Roman Empire emphasizing Christianity’s emphasis on the the respect for women and the coming together to help the sick and poor, two things Paganism, which was more Darwinist, ignored. But here he acknowledges Christianity was not always the religion of peace.

    At the same time as the Saxon beheadings, Charlemagne, again in the name of the price of peace sent every third Saxon family south to live and be Christianized. Ethnically cleansed and beheaded the Saxons converted. Perhaps they learned their lessons too well, nowadays maybe they love too much.

    Mass beheadings and ethnic cleansing, two ideas you will not hear discussed much from the pulpit on Sunday mornings.

    This is again a case of “historians” with an anti-Christian agenda turning facts on their head.
    The “Saxon Wars” were primarily a continued fight between barbarians. They have not been initiated by “the Christians” in order to convert the freedom loving Saxons, but to curb their plundering expeditions in the lands under Frankish rule. The Christianization of Germany starts well before Charlemagne, through the efforts of Irish, Scottish and English missionaries (St. Columban, St Boniface).
    The immediate cause of the Saxon Wars under Charlemagne was the sack and burning of the church in Deventer by a Saxon expedition. The much-vaunted massacre of Verden (which occurred ten years later had little to do with “imposing Christianity”as such. It was an execution for high treason after repeated rebellions and attacks on the churches. The leader of the rebellions, Widukind submitted eventually and received the baptism.

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  • @fnn
    The "innocence" was a construct of the post-1945 American Empire:

    http://conswede.blogspot.com/2008/07/social-paradigms-shift-eg-our-view-on.html

    To illustrate what I talk about. Louis Armstrong visited Sweden in 1933. In all the news papers he was describe as something monkey-like let loose from the jungle. All across the line! And in the reviews by the most serious music critics.

    Who would have imagined in 1933, that twelve years later Western Europe would undergo an America-led cultural revolution which would lead to the common belief that there are no differences between races?

    Translation of two of the quotes:

    Knut Bäck in Göteborgs-Posten, November 1933:
    "This world is strange... No protests are raised against how the jungle is let loose into the society. Armstrong and his band are allowed to freely wreak destruction."

    Sten Broman in Sydsvenskan, November 1933:
    "Dare I say that he at times had something monkey-like about him and sometimes reminded of, according to our perceptions, a mentally disturbed person, when he pouted with his mouth or gaped it to its widest open and roared like a hoarse animal from a primeval forest."

    The third quote compares the concert with a natural disaster, and Armstrong's trumpet with a hell machine. The only good thing coming out of it, he says, is that it solves to old dispute of whether monkeys have a language.

    This is what Europe looked like, up until 1945. And since some people will live under the misconception that this was a phenomenon of the '30s, I here provide a quote from the Swedish Encyclopedia, Nordisk Familjebok, the 1876-1899 edition (here and here).

    "Psychologically the negro can be said be on the level of a child, with vivid fantasy, lack of endurance, ... can be said to lack morality rather than being immoral ... etc."

    Even though the point here has been to illustrate how social paradigms can shift completely in short time (and this is just one out of numerous examples), let me add how up until 1945 all the focus was put on the differences between races, and after that all the focus has been put on what is equal (while ignoring differences).
     
    Old quote from the half-Jewish Moldbug: "I don't think it's a coincidence that the European ruling class holds essentially the same perspectives that were held at Harvard in 1945. The US Army did not shoot all the professors in Europe and replace them with Yankee carpetbaggers, but the prestige of conquest is such that it might as well have"

    well, that brings up the history of Darwinian social thought in the US. Carl Degler’s In Search of Human Nature, is a good history of of socio-biology, and more recently, HBD. He does not, as I recall, give an exact date for the eclipse of Darwinism, but to my surprise reading his book, Darwinian thinking was never killed off, but the assault of the Jews starting with Franz Boas was determinant. And this assault began in the 1920s as those jews whom the nasty nordics wanted kept out, brought their communism and intellectual subversion from Europe and began their campaigns for Human Dignity, Rights of Man, and Racial Equality.

    Hitler than delivered the coup of sorts, and yes, the American Model, of liberty for all in the service of international capital, began. We reconstructed Germany and Japan to our liking, meaning the liberal internationalism in which race consciousness had and has no place. Equality, particularly racial, is required for the smooth functioning of markets.

    Innocence with regard to the age in Norway, that I noticed as the benchmark age for Norwegians starting to wake up and smell the wretched, was roughly 40. That loss of Innocence I was writing about was personal, not geo-political.

    Of course, the American Empire of Sorts, forced Negro soldiers into Germany, etc. And Germans got the offer they could not refuse, given the wiping out of German POWs and displaced Germans walking home from places like Poland and Czechoslovokia. The revisionist historians place the dead in the millions…and I dunno about the German POWs who disappeared in the Gulags.

    So, race science became HItlerian, and the holocaust was thrown into the propaganda stew. Quite a powerful concoction. Then, add to that the decolonization of the 5os and 60s…let my People Go….and I bought this stuff, as a young man with too much altruism, and a left homelife.

    So anyway, the Innocence about Racial reality is hitting the Wall, along with the Negroes hitting their own Wall, of incompetence and stupidity, and the rest of it. Hitting the Wall forces a re-think, or, in the case of Negroes, going berserk since they are hopeless. It becomes murderous.

    A friend of mine who just attended a Climate Change protest rally in Oakland , CA. put a sign together: Earth Matters. He was hassled by some Negroes (Oakland) and one specimen followed him to his car and informed him that soon they, the negroes, were going to start killing Whites. I guess he was uninformed that they have been doing this for years.

    The whole race liberation thing is starting to blow up on the college campuses, with one story after another getting more and more bizarre. Detroit on every college campus, with a cop on every corner. I loved Richard Pryor decades ago. ” you wanna know why us niggers do so much cutting’? cuz we ain’t got no guns.”

    So America’s Age of Innocence in all respects is grinding to a halt, racial , economic, and political. What is coming is a period of great conflict.

    Joe Webb

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  • Skip the metal, it’s time for Christmas music!

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  • Anon • Disclaimer says:

    There are times when I think that when a white society starts making life too comfortable for its citizens, some sort of Darwinian gene asserts itself and tries to make life as hard as possible so that whites and their culture won’t commit suicide from sheer feebleness. Why else are whites importing an underclass that will take jobs away from it, rape its women, rob its poor and elderly, and pay large sums of cash to foreign loafers by taxing its own middle class to death so it can barely afford to breed and raise its own children, etc. There honestly seems to be something more at work here than just crack-brained liberal political (theo)-ideology.

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  • @WhatEvvs
    In fairness, the history about the metalhead attacks on Lutheran churches was interesting. I used to know a guy who was a fan of a Norwegian metal group, TNT, so I got to know about their lead guitarist, Ronnie Le Tekro. I dont' know how famous they are, I just knew about them. Ronnie dismissed Christianity as a "bunch of middle eastern fairy tales." This post puts his comments in better perspective.

    As to those commenters who helpfully corrected me by pointing out that Norway was independent in the 13th century, oh please. I was referring to recent history. Perhaps you'd like to cite some Paleolithic examples of Norwegian nationhood? Bronze Age? You might have pointed out that Norway separated from Sweden in 1905. I was off a year.

    What difference does that make? Your point that Norway gained independence in 1905 is irrelevant (and by the way, I did correct you about the date – see my previous post). The Norwegians were a distinct group of people, and one that did not acquire a colonial empire. So your obnoxious contention that the author needs to study more history has no basis.

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  • @singh.jatt
    As a Sikh, I take that personally as many of them were my brothers

    Sons of the Devi Danu & Rishi Kashyap

    We will not stop until all abrahamic civilization is destroyed.

    You have me totally confused. What are you saying? Indeed what and who are you replying to?

    What have Sikhs got to do with Christians, or Muslims for that matter?

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  • @conatus
    The northern north like Norway and the like, seem to me to be Christianized by terror. The very same sort of terror at the same time in the 700s the Muslims were using to Islamasize great stretches of the Mediterranean coast. Actually the terror here was Christian terror used by Charlemagne to tame the Saxons and also terrorize their northern cousins.
    In 782 Charlemagne was pissed at the Saxons so he baptized 4,500 men and then cut off their heads at Verden. Sounds positively Islamic.

    Rodney Stark, who has written a boatload of books on the idea that ‘Christianity is good’ (relatively speaking) has another recent book out titled ‘How the West Won.’(2014) Regarding pre-Christian Europe, especially northern Europe, nowadays few people discuss the beheading of the 4500 Saxons in 782 at Verden in the name of the Prince of Peace. In today’s demographics that is 180,000 hairy dudes. That is a lot of men, who, contrary to our time, were very valuable as a resource in those days. A few years ago I had never heard of Verden and usually understood the success of Christianity as due to its greater guilt generating activities creating more cooperation.

    In this view (just a suggestion in the book) Christianity was imposed in the most brutal fashion on the people of the North, it was a religion they did not want, it was not the doctrine that attracted them, it was the simple idea of living another day that forced them to pay lip service to Jesus. It was a forcible conversion of fear for the people of the North, not a conversion of belief. On p. 97 Stark discusses the idea that the Vikings, a hundred years later, targeted British Monasteries and Monks, not necessarily because they were defenseless but “because they were angry about efforts to Christianize the North. Especially provocative would have been the atrocities committed by Charlemagne, who, for example, had about 4,500 unarmed Saxon captives forcibly baptized and then executed. The Vikings seem to have known that Charlemagne had issued an edict imposing the death sentence on all who tried to resist Christianization.”

    Stark cites a 2009 book by Robert Ferguson for this idea about the Vikings attacking religious centers in England as a sort of revenge, ‘The Vikings, a History,’ p 54.

    So you could look at the Christianization of the North as a forced conversion of terror.

    Stark has written other books on the Christianization of the Roman Empire emphasizing Christianity’s emphasis on the the respect for women and the coming together to help the sick and poor, two things Paganism, which was more Darwinist, ignored. But here he acknowledges Christianity was not always the religion of peace.

    At the same time as the Saxon beheadings, Charlemagne, again in the name of the price of peace sent every third Saxon family south to live and be Christianized. Ethnically cleansed and beheaded the Saxons converted. Perhaps they learned their lessons too well, nowadays maybe they love too much.

    Mass beheadings and ethnic cleansing, two ideas you will not hear discussed much from the pulpit on Sunday mornings.

    Not just the North, Romans were forcibly converted to Christianity, too.

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    • Replies: @TB
    That is true, Europe used to be European. A little Christmas story about how Christianity made its way. Summarised from Vlasis Rassias’ book “DEMOLISH THEM..”, published in Greek, Athens 2000 (2nd edition), Anichti Poli Editions, ISBN 960-7748-20-4:

    314
    Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks the Gentiles: The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

    324
    Emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire. At Dydima, Asia Minor, he sacks the Oracle of God Apollo and tortures its Pagan priests to death. He also evicts the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all local Hellenic Temples.

    326
    Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc.

    330
    Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the Pagan Temples in Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.

    335
    Constantine sacks many Pagan Temples of Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers”. Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatros.

    341
    Emperor Constas, son of Constantinus, persecutes “all the soothsayers and the Hellenists”. Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

    346
    New large – scale persecutions against the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as… “magician”.

    353
    An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifices and “idols”.

    354
    A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Pagan priests. First burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed Pagan Temples. A large part of Sacred Gentile architecture is turned into lime.

    356
    A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all “idolaters”.

    357
    Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).

    359
    In Skythopolis, Syria, Christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.

    361 to 363
    Religious tolerance and restoration of Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.

    363
    Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).

    364
    Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination (“sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi uriositas”). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, even private ones.

    365
    An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids Gentile officers of the army to command christian soldiers.

    370
    Emperor Valens orders a tremendous persecution of Gentiles throughout the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other Pagans, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of cities of the Eastern Empire. All friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.

    372
    Emperor Valens orders the governor of Asia Minor to exterminate the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom.

    373
    New prohibition of all methods of Divination. The term “Pagan” (pagani, villagers) is introduced by the christians to lessen the Gentiles.

    375
    The Temple of God Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down.

    380
    On 27th February, Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that “all the various nations, which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion, which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter”. Non-christians are called “loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind”. In another edict Theodosius calls “insane” those that do not believe in the christian god and outlaws all disagreements with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the Pagan Temples of his area. Christian priests lead the mob against the Temple of Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius, ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.

    381
    On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives all rights of christians that return to the Pagan Religion. Throughout the Eastern Empire, Pagan Temples and Libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws even simple visits to the Temples of the Hellenes. In Constantinople, the Temple of Goddess Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the Temples of Sun and Artemis into stables.

    382
    “Hellelu-jah” (Glory to Yahweh) is imposed in the christian mass.

    384
    Emperor Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect, Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated christian, to cooperate with the local bishops and destroy the Temples of the Gentiles in Northern Greece and Asia Minor.

    385 to 388
    Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop, “Saint” Marcellus with his gangs scour the countryside, sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic Temples, shrines and altars. Amongst others they destroy the Temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the Temple of Zeus in Apamea, the Temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the Temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent Gentiles from all sides of the Empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.

    386
    Emperor Theodosius outlaws (16th June) the care of sacked Pagan Temples.

    388
    Public talks on religious subjects are also outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous Epistle “Pro Templis” to Theodosius, with a hope that the few remaining Hellenic Temples will be respected and spared.

    389 to 390
    All non-christian calenders are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood into Middle Eastern and Egyptian cities, destroying statues, altars, Libraries and Pagan Temples, whilst Gentiles are lynched. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesques the Pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The christian mob profanes the cult images.

    391
    On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to Pagan Temples but also looking at vandalised statues. New heavy persecutions all around the Empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Gentiles, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights, finally lock themselves inside the fortified Temple of God Serapis (The Serapeion). After a violent siege, the christians occupy the building, demolish it, burn its famous Library and profane the cult images.

    392
    On 8th November, the Emperor Theodosius outlaws all non-christian rituals and names them “superstitions of the Gentiles” (“gentilicia superstitio”). New full scale persecutions against the Gentiles. The Mysteries of Samothrace are ended and priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop, “Saints” Epiphanius and Tychon destroy almost all the Temples of the island and exterminate thousands of Gentiles. The local Mysteries of Goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius’ edict declares: “the ones that won’t obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living on the island”. The Gentiles revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis, Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.

    393
    The Pythian, Aktia and Olympic Games are outlawed as part of the Hellenic “idolatry”. Christians sack the Temples of Olympia.

    395
    Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) lead to new persecutions against the Gentiles. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius directs the hordes of the baptised Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the Hellenes. Encouraged by christian monks, the barbarians sack and burn many cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable Hellenes and burn the Temples. Among others, they burn down the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all of its priests (including the hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

    396
    On 7th December, a new edict by Emperor Arcadius orders that Paganism be treated as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining Pagan priests and hierophants.

    397
    “Demolish them!” Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all the still erect Pagan Temples demolished.

    398
    The Fourth Church Council of Carthage prohibits to all, including its bishops, the study of Gentile books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, demolishes almost all the Pagan Temples of his city (except nine of them that remain active).

    399
    With a new edict (13th July) Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining Temples, mainly in the countryside, to be immediately demolished: «Si qua in agris templa sunt, sine turba ac tumultu diruantur. His enim deiectis atque sublatis omnis superstitioni materia consumetur»

    400
    Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of God Dionysus in Vesai and baptises all the Gentiles of this area.

    401
    The christian mob of Carthage lynches Gentiles and destroys Temples and “idols”. In Gaza too, the local bishop, also a..,”Saint”, Porphyrius sends his followers to lynch Gentiles and demolish the remaining nine still active Temples of the city. The 15th Council of Chalkedon orders all christians that still keep good relations with their gentile relatives to be excommunicated (even after their death).

    405
    John Chrysostom sends his hordes of gray-clad monks armed with clubs and iron bars to destroy the “idols” in all the cities of Palestine.

    406
    John Chrysostom collects funds from rich christian women to financially support the demolition of the Hellenic Temples. In Ephessus, he orders the destruction of the famous Temple of Goddess Artemis. In Salamis, Cyprus, “Saints” Epiphanius and Eutychius continue persecutions of the Gentiles and the total destruction of their Temples and sanctuaries.

    407
    A new edict outlaws once more all non-christian acts of worship.

    408
    The Emperor of the Western Empire Honorius and the Emperor of the Eastern Empire Arcadius, order together that all sculptures of the Pagan Temples be either destroyed or confiscated. Private ownership of Pagan sculpture is also outlawed. The local bishops lead new heavy persecutions against Gentiles and new book burning. Judges showing pity for Gentiles are also persecuted.

    409
    Once again, an edict orders Astrology and all methods of Divination to be punished by death.

    415
    In Alexandria, Egypt, the mob urged by the bishop Cyrillus, attacks a few days before the judaeo-christian Pascha (Pesach-Easter) and hacks to pieces the famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. Pieces of her body are paraded by the christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, and are finally burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron. On 30th August, new persecutions start against all the Pagan priests of North Africa, who end their lives either crucified or burned alive.

    416
    The inquisitor Hypatius, alias “The Sword of God”, exterminates the last Gentiles of Bithynia. In Constantinople (7th December), all non-christian army officers, public employees and judges are dismissed.

    423
    Emperor Theodosius II, declares (8th June) that the Religion of the Gentiles is nothing more than “demon worship” and orders all those who persist in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and tortured.

    429
    The Temple of Goddess Athena (Parthenon) on the Acropolis of Athens is sacked. Athenian Pagans are persecuted.

    435
    On 14th November, a new edict by Theodosius II orders the death penalty for all “heretics” and “pagans” of the Empire. Only Judaism is considered a legal non-christian Religion.

    438
    Theodosius II issues an new edict (31st January) against the Gentiles, incriminating their “idolatry” as the reason for a recent
    plague!

    440 to 450
    The christians demolish all the monuments, altars and Temples of Athens, Olympia, and other Greek cities.

    448
    Theodosius II orders all non-christian books burned.

    450
    All the Temples of Aphrodisias (City of Goddess Aphrodite) are demolished and its Libraries burned down. The city is renamed Stauroupolis (City of the Cross).

    451
    A new edict by Theodosius II (4th November) emphasises that “idolatry” is to be punished by death.

    457 to 491
    Sporadic persecutions against Gentiles of the Eastern Empire. Among others, the physician Jacobus and the philosopher Gessius are executed. Severianus, Herestios, Zosimus, Isidorus and others are tortured and imprisoned. The proselytiser Conon and his followers exterminate the last Gentiles of the island of Imbros, in the northeast Aegean. The last worshippers of Lavranius Zeus are exterminated in Cyprus.

    482 to 488
    The majority of the Gentiles of Asia Minor are exterminated, after a desperate revolt against the Emperor and the Church.

    486
    More “underground” Pagan priests are discovered, arrested, burlesqued, tortured and executed in Alexandria, Egypt.

    515
    Baptism becomes obligatory, even for those that already say they are christian. The Emperor of Constantinople, Anastasius orders the massacre of the Gentiles in the Arabian city Zoara and the demolition of the Temple of local God Theandrites.

    528
    Emperor Jutprada (Justinianus) outlaws the “alternative” Olympian Games of Antioch. He also orders the execution (by fire, crucifixion, tearing to pieces by wild beasts, or cutting by iron nails) of all who practice “sorcery, divination, magic or idolatry” and prohibits all teachings by the Gentiles (“..the ones suffering from the blasphemous insanity of the Hellenes”).

    529
    Emperor Justinianus outlaws the Athenian Philosophical Academy, which has its property confiscated.

    532
    The inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus, a fanatical monk, leads a crusade against the Gentiles of Asia Minor.

    542
    Emperor Justinianus allows the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus to convert the Gentiles of Phrygia, Caria and Lydia in Asia Minor. Within 35 years of this crusade, 99 churches and 12 monasteries are built on the sites of demolished Pagan Temples.

    546
    Hundreds of Gentiles are put to death in Constantinople by the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus.

    556
    Justinianus orders the notorious inquisitor Amantius to go to Antioch, to find, arrest, torture and exterminate the last Gentiles of the city and burn all the private libraries down.

    562
    Mass arrests, burlesquing, tortures, imprisonments and executions of Gentile Hellenes in Athens, Antioch, Palmyra and Constantinople.

    578 to 582
    Christians torture and crucify Gentile Hellenes all around the Eastern Empire, and exterminate the last Gentiles of Heliopolis
    (Baalbek).

    580
    Christian inquisitors attack a secret Temple of Zeus in Antioch. The priest commits suicide, but the other Gentiles are arrested. All the prisoners, the Vice Governor Anatolius included, are tortured and sent to Constantinople to face trial. Sentenced to death they are thrown to the lions. The wild animals are unwilling to tear them to pieces and they end up crucified. Their corpses are dragged through the streets by the christian mob and afterwards thrown unburied in the city dump.

    583

    New persecutions against the Gentile Hellenes by the Emperor Mauricius.

    590
    Throughout the Eastern Empire, christian accusers “discover” Pagan conspiracies. A new wave of torture and executions erupts.

    692
    The “Penthekte” Council of Constantinople prohibits the remains of Calends, Brumalia, Anthesteria, and other Pagan / Dionysian festivals.

    804
    The Gentile Hellenes of Laconia, Greece, resist successfully the attempt of Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople, to convert them to Christianity.

    950 to 988
    Violent conversion of the last Gentile Hellenes of Laconia by the Armenian “Saint” Nikon.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Catholic people SPECIALLY latin ones seems very hypocritical about follow (subjective/contextual) moral laws of christianism. just look for description of mediterranean subrace ”character” to understand this bio-social dynamic, a abrahamic religion acting as blocking of the most ardent sexual urges among mediterranean peoples but not totally.

    In contrast, Scandinavian, Germanic in general, always seemed very correct in the literal interpretation of biblical teachings, before the cultural Marxism. Now they have become the most cohesive in the new religion. Hypocrisy, often unconscious, is signal-to-lower cognitive ability, ie, understanding the dominant cultural system and acting ”coherently”. Or it can also be sign to less morality (subjective). But it may be only a very stereotypical impression of European subraces.

    Eurasian masses seems ‘evolved” exactly like that, i mean, to understand the dominant cultural system and adapting subsequently while true philosophers tend to pervade this border between follow and create/understand/perceive and propose new dimensions of morality/behavior.

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    • Replies: @unpc downunder
    "Hypocrisy, often unconscious, is signal-to-lower cognitive ability, ie, understanding the dominant cultural system and acting ”coherently”. Or it can also be sign to less morality (subjective). "

    Yer right, Latins are obviously primitive wogs like Aristotle and Plato. Clearly their views on political ideology are down to primative hypocrisy and couldn't be anything to do with being part of an older and more mature civilisation.

    My I remind you that sophisticated north Europeans also invented Nazism. They may be good scientists and engineers but they still have a lot to learn about the world of politics.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @joe webb
    I was in Norway 5 years ago for almost 3 weeks driving around. The kids are knee-jerk about race, but polite (White ). The age of lost innocence is about 40 there. Those folks are wising up. One gal summed it up...We were very naive.

    Joe Webb

    Outstanding piece, looking forward to commenting more later. For now:

    “Why this hostility to Christianity? And why is it more extreme in Norway?

    Calls to mind the entry for that nation in The Onion’s world atlas:

    Norway:
    Suppressing the urge to chop you in half with an axe

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  • @szopen
    Once again, you are totally wrong. You have a theory and you are force anything to fit your theory, no matter the facts.

    Poland, Czech and other use more and more beer and are catholics.

    Anthropologically, Poland, Belarus have as many nordics as Germany.

    Genetically, autosomal differences between
    Southern Germany and Northern Germany: 1.08

    Southern Germany and Poland 1.23
    Northern Germany and Poland 1.13

    Southern Germany and Sweden 1.22
    Northern Germany and Sweden 1.12

    Poland and Sweden 1.3

    Just read some Koneczny for fucks' sake for example. In his classification Poland is Latin civilisation, Rusian are Byzantine-Turan, Germany is Bizantine.

    Or look on World Value Survey maps. Czech outlier of the same civilisation as Russia? Jesus, it so ignorant that I just lack words to express my disdain.

    Or look on World Value Survey maps. Czech outlier of the same civilisation as Russia?

    All the former communist countries of Central and Eastern Europe cluster together, with the core states of Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria and Montenegro clustering especially closely.

    You’ll notice that the Mediterranean-Latin-Catholic nations are tightly grouped as well, from Greece and France down to Portugal and Argentina.

    Protestant Europe and the English-speaking world sandwich Belgium, Luxembourg and Austria to make up the Nordic-Germanic-Protestant bloc.

    Jesus, it so ignorant that I just lack words to express my disdain.

    Maybe you need a thesaurus.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    "All the former communist countries of Central and Eastern Europe cluster togethe"

    No, they don't. They do not cluster at all. Just measure the distances and look at the discontinuities. Hungary, Lithuania - yes, they cluster. But then you have huge discontinuity and Czechs, Slovenia, Croatia decisively clustering more with western Europe. Poland is clustering more with India/Turkey (absurd, but this is how it looks). UNless you do not understand what "cluster" is.

    Remove the names and colours, give this chart to someone and ask him/her to draw cluster. No way he/she would cluster together all Central and Eastern-Europen Slavic countries together.

    Look at the distance of Czech from Western Germany and Russia. How's come Czech are outlier or Russia, and not of Western Germany? Look at the Croatia and distance from Spain and from Russia. How's come it's outlier of orthodox eastern, not of Latin western civilisation?

    Distance between Poland and Russia is almost the same as between Poland and Czech and Western Germany. And Poland is closer on this map to Spain, Italy, and France. Arguably, on this map Poland is more outlier of Latin civilisation than of orthodox.

    You just decided a priori there are just three civilisation and THEN you decided to fit the data into your prior. If you will see at this map, but also at map at Jayman (e.g. metal band per head, or corruption, or any other) you will not see Poland, or Czech, or Croatia as "outliers" of Alpine Eastern Orthodox civilisation, especially since Poland is neither Alpine (anthropologically, percentage of nordics similar to Germany), nor Orthodox.

    In fact, if you look just at WVS map, you are forced to conclude that France, Belgium, Austria, Great Britain cluster together making core of Europe, while Nordic Countries, Czech, Croatia are outliers from this common core.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Tom_R
    HERE IS THE RECONSTRUCTED FACE OF JEWS-US: A DARK BROWN OR BLACK MAN

    I am sorry, if the Popular Mechanics link was not working right. Here is another link to see the face of Jewsus:

    From CNN.com : “From science and computers, a new face of Jesus”: By Jeordan Legon
    CNN, Thursday, December 26, 2002 Posted: 9:45 AM EST (1445 GMT)

    "(CNN) -- The Jesus pictured on the cover of this month's Popular Mechanics has a broad peasant's face, DARK OLIVE SKIN, short curly hair and a prominent nose. He would have stood 5-foot-1-inch tall and weighed 110 pounds, if the magazine is to be believed."

    See:
    http://edition.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/12/25/face.jesus/

    I saw it the first time. That’s not a picture of a black man. That’s a picture of a scruffy, olive skinned Caucasoid, a type common in the Mediterranean.

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  • WhatEvvs [AKA "Internet Addict"] says:

    In fairness, the history about the metalhead attacks on Lutheran churches was interesting. I used to know a guy who was a fan of a Norwegian metal group, TNT, so I got to know about their lead guitarist, Ronnie Le Tekro. I dont’ know how famous they are, I just knew about them. Ronnie dismissed Christianity as a “bunch of middle eastern fairy tales.” This post puts his comments in better perspective.

    As to those commenters who helpfully corrected me by pointing out that Norway was independent in the 13th century, oh please. I was referring to recent history. Perhaps you’d like to cite some Paleolithic examples of Norwegian nationhood? Bronze Age? You might have pointed out that Norway separated from Sweden in 1905. I was off a year.

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    • Replies: @Jackdaw
    What difference does that make? Your point that Norway gained independence in 1905 is irrelevant (and by the way, I did correct you about the date - see my previous post). The Norwegians were a distinct group of people, and one that did not acquire a colonial empire. So your obnoxious contention that the author needs to study more history has no basis.
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  • @German_reader
    "The Norwegians remain alert to the threat from Russia and made a glossy TV series about an fictional conquest by their neighbour. "

    That's a bizarre thing I don't get about the mainstream in present-day Western Europe...one is supposed to be totally ok with nation-destroying mass immigration, but at the same time people get all hysterical about the supposed threat from Russia (which is presented as if it's some real life Mordor). Simply idiotic.

    Nation states can’t survive in perpetual peace, that much is now clear. Rich countries have a population that feels secure. Immigration is not seen as an external threat, that is why other nations occupying Norwegians’ land it is not reacted to like the prospect f an invasion from another state. A real threat from a foreign state would not be ignored even if it was very tenuous, like the Russian one is. People have frequently suspected the government of creating false threats.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Report_from_Iron_Mountain (1967)The heavily footnoted report concluded that peace was not in the interest of a stable society, that even if lasting peace “could be achieved, it would almost certainly not be in the best interests of society to achieve it.” War was a part of the economy. Therefore, it was necessary to conceive a state of war for a stable economy. The government, the group theorized, would not exist without war, and nation states existed in order to wage war. War also served a vital function of diverting collective aggression. They recommended that bodies be created to emulate the economic functions of war. They also recommended “blood games” and that the government create alternative foes that would scare the people with reports of alien life-forms and out-of-control pollution.

    The foe has become the majority of the population, whose ethnic homogeneity makes them potentially a rival power base. Moreover they not needed as cannon fodder and are blaise. The foreign immigrants are the new friends of the elite and the state, and the social capital of immigrants is boosted by claiming they are the subject of prejudice and discrimination. Mark my words, Jihadist terror attacks are creating a massive surveillance and a disaster for indigenous nationalists, who will become the threat that the security apparatus will be turned on.

    There is some hope howerver:_

    http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/?p=451 First, both assume that the end of the Cold War did in fact represent a critical turning point in history. Either such as marked the end of one kind of conflict and the beginning of another (Huntington); or that represented the beginning of a process which would eventually culminate in a world without war and thus to the End of History (Fukuyama).

    Second and perhaps even more important, both focus on what, for lack of a better term, I shall call spiritual factors. For Fukuyama, the paramount one is ideology. For Huntington, it is identity. In doing so they leave out any other number of factors that have always led, and presumably will continue to lead, to war in the future too. Chief among them are technological developments; competition for economic resources in a world where such resources are said to become less and less plentiful; and, over-arching everything else, the “perpetual and restless desire for power after power that ceaseth only in death” (Thomas Hobbes). The least one can say is that, in any attempt to understand the future of war, these factors must take a paramount place side by side with those Fukuyama and Huntington have focused on.

    As Mearsheimer (who advised Ukraine to have an independent nuclear deterrent andpredicted Ukraine’s troubles if it didn’t 20 years before the event) says, negative consequences flow from “ policy that assumes good faith in the future does not seek survival above all else, and amounts to “foolish behavior”.

    [...] Given the difficulty of determining how much power is enough for today and tomorrow, great powers recognize that the best way to ensure their security is to achieve hegemony now, thus eliminating any possibility of a challenge by another great power. Only a misguided state would pass up an opportunity to be the hegemon in the system because it thought it already had sufficient power to survive

    Norway is not being made stronger by taking in immigrants, but it is not going to be disabused unless it gets a threat it can recognise.

    That won’t be easy. No one wants to be a “bad” person, and in a conformist society like Norway a rule-breaker is “bad” no matter how stupid the rule may seem. As long as the rule is affirmed and never challenged, people will obey and make others obey. Only when enough people challenge it—openly and defiantly—will the moral consensus weaken and collapse. To get from here to there will be difficult but it can be done. Rules of sexual morality were deconstructed. Why not antiracism?

    It is like a bird realising that its nest contains a cuckoo egg, if the cuckoo chick has been removed when their mother comes back to check, the genuine chicks are attacked. It’s safer to go along.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Immigration is not seen as an external threat, that is why other nations occupying Norwegians’ land it is not reacted to like the prospect f an invasion from another state. A real threat from a foreign state would not be ignored even if it was very tenuous, like the Russian one is.
     
    Here's an example of this sort of thing from the "nation-state" of Texas:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnL5ZqsL8cI
    , @Anonymous

    Nation states can’t survive in perpetual peace, that much is now clear. Rich countries have a population that feels secure. Immigration is not seen as an external threat, that is why other nations occupying Norwegians’ land it is not reacted to like the prospect f an invasion from another state. A real threat from a foreign state would not be ignored even if it was very tenuous, like the Russian one is. People have frequently suspected the government of creating false threats.
     
    Here's an example of this sort of thing from the "nation-state" of Texas:

    "ISIS Has Threatened My Motherland The Great Republic Of Texas & My Warning To Them"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnL5ZqsL8cI
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  • @joe webb
    I was in Norway 5 years ago for almost 3 weeks driving around. The kids are knee-jerk about race, but polite (White ). The age of lost innocence is about 40 there. Those folks are wising up. One gal summed it up...We were very naive.

    Joe Webb

    The “innocence” was a construct of the post-1945 American Empire:

    http://conswede.blogspot.com/2008/07/social-paradigms-shift-eg-our-view-on.html

    To illustrate what I talk about. Louis Armstrong visited Sweden in 1933. In all the news papers he was describe as something monkey-like let loose from the jungle. All across the line! And in the reviews by the most serious music critics.

    Who would have imagined in 1933, that twelve years later Western Europe would undergo an America-led cultural revolution which would lead to the common belief that there are no differences between races?

    Translation of two of the quotes:

    Knut Bäck in Göteborgs-Posten, November 1933:
    “This world is strange… No protests are raised against how the jungle is let loose into the society. Armstrong and his band are allowed to freely wreak destruction.”

    Sten Broman in Sydsvenskan, November 1933:
    “Dare I say that he at times had something monkey-like about him and sometimes reminded of, according to our perceptions, a mentally disturbed person, when he pouted with his mouth or gaped it to its widest open and roared like a hoarse animal from a primeval forest.”

    The third quote compares the concert with a natural disaster, and Armstrong’s trumpet with a hell machine. The only good thing coming out of it, he says, is that it solves to old dispute of whether monkeys have a language.

    This is what Europe looked like, up until 1945. And since some people will live under the misconception that this was a phenomenon of the ’30s, I here provide a quote from the Swedish Encyclopedia, Nordisk Familjebok, the 1876-1899 edition (here and here).

    “Psychologically the negro can be said be on the level of a child, with vivid fantasy, lack of endurance, … can be said to lack morality rather than being immoral … etc.”

    Even though the point here has been to illustrate how social paradigms can shift completely in short time (and this is just one out of numerous examples), let me add how up until 1945 all the focus was put on the differences between races, and after that all the focus has been put on what is equal (while ignoring differences).

    Old quote from the half-Jewish Moldbug: “I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the European ruling class holds essentially the same perspectives that were held at Harvard in 1945. The US Army did not shoot all the professors in Europe and replace them with Yankee carpetbaggers, but the prestige of conquest is such that it might as well have”

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    • Replies: @joe webb
    well, that brings up the history of Darwinian social thought in the US. Carl Degler's In Search of Human Nature, is a good history of of socio-biology, and more recently, HBD. He does not, as I recall, give an exact date for the eclipse of Darwinism, but to my surprise reading his book, Darwinian thinking was never killed off, but the assault of the Jews starting with Franz Boas was determinant. And this assault began in the 1920s as those jews whom the nasty nordics wanted kept out, brought their communism and intellectual subversion from Europe and began their campaigns for Human Dignity, Rights of Man, and Racial Equality.

    Hitler than delivered the coup of sorts, and yes, the American Model, of liberty for all in the service of international capital, began. We reconstructed Germany and Japan to our liking, meaning the liberal internationalism in which race consciousness had and has no place. Equality, particularly racial, is required for the smooth functioning of markets.

    Innocence with regard to the age in Norway, that I noticed as the benchmark age for Norwegians starting to wake up and smell the wretched, was roughly 40. That loss of Innocence I was writing about was personal, not geo-political.

    Of course, the American Empire of Sorts, forced Negro soldiers into Germany, etc. And Germans got the offer they could not refuse, given the wiping out of German POWs and displaced Germans walking home from places like Poland and Czechoslovokia. The revisionist historians place the dead in the millions...and I dunno about the German POWs who disappeared in the Gulags.

    So, race science became HItlerian, and the holocaust was thrown into the propaganda stew. Quite a powerful concoction. Then, add to that the decolonization of the 5os and 60s...let my People Go....and I bought this stuff, as a young man with too much altruism, and a left homelife.

    So anyway, the Innocence about Racial reality is hitting the Wall, along with the Negroes hitting their own Wall, of incompetence and stupidity, and the rest of it. Hitting the Wall forces a re-think, or, in the case of Negroes, going berserk since they are hopeless. It becomes murderous.

    A friend of mine who just attended a Climate Change protest rally in Oakland , CA. put a sign together: Earth Matters. He was hassled by some Negroes (Oakland) and one specimen followed him to his car and informed him that soon they, the negroes, were going to start killing Whites. I guess he was uninformed that they have been doing this for years.

    The whole race liberation thing is starting to blow up on the college campuses, with one story after another getting more and more bizarre. Detroit on every college campus, with a cop on every corner. I loved Richard Pryor decades ago. " you wanna know why us niggers do so much cutting'? cuz we ain't got no guns."

    So America's Age of Innocence in all respects is grinding to a halt, racial , economic, and political. What is coming is a period of great conflict.

    Joe Webb
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @jeppo
    This also reflects certain profound psychological traits that characterize Northwest Europeans in general, with Scandinavians forming the epicenter.

    Scandinavia is the core of Nordic-Germanic-Protestant Europe because Scandinavians are more Nordic (taller, higher % of blond hair & blue eyes), more Germanic (fewer Latin, Celtic and Slavic influences on Scandi languages & bloodlines), and more Protestant (100% conversion of population to Protestantism 500 years ago) than anyone else.

    These distinct racial and cultural traits have made them simultaneously the most socially and technologically advanced societies on Earth, and also the most naive and suicidal.

    Germany, Holland and Britain are also Nordic, Germanic and Protestant, but somewhat less so than the Scandinavians. Then the partial outliers (Finland, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, the Anglo settler societies) round out the Northwest European nations.

    The other two European meta-cultures are the Mediterranean-Latin-Catholic one in the South, and the Alpine-Slavic-Orthodox one in the East.

    The core of the former are Italy, France, Spain and Portugal. The outliers are Greece, Cyprus, Malta and last remaining Euro-majority nations in Latin America, Argentina and Uruguay.

    The core of the latter are Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, and the Slavic Orthodox nations in the Balkans. The outliers include all the post-communist countries of Central and Eastern Europe, except East Germany.

    These three sub-civilizations are also divided on the most fundamental Western cultural preference of them all: alcoholic beverage of choice. In the north they prefer beer; in the south, wine; and in the east, spirits (mostly vodka).

    The beer-drinking northerners economically out-compete both the wine-drinking southerners and vodka-drinking easterners, but they're plagued by a pathological altruism that's much less apparent in the south, and practically non-existent in the east.

    And the Scandinavians are the most northerly of the northerners, in terms of both geography and behaviour. So, feeling guilty about their societal superiority -- guilt-proneness and efficiency are both Nordic-Germanic-Protestant traits -- they have voluntarily handicapped themselves by importing countless numbers of backward peoples. This way they can narrow the embarrassing (to them) gap between their standard of living and that of the rest of the world.

    This guilt-proneness, combined with the objectively better societies built by Northwest Europeans in general, and Scandinavians in particular, leads them to fanatically police themselves for any signs of "racism," i.e. acknowledging the obvious superiority of their countries and themselves, and the desire to keep things that way.

    So even if the flood of Africans and Muslims to Scandinavia/Northwest Europe is stopped, it will have served its purpose: to lower living standards so that Scandinavians/Northwest Europeans could no longer be seen as being better than everyone else. Equalism (and its twin, "anti-racism") brought to its inevitable conclusion.

    Scandi”naiveans” are just adapted/decanted high functioning autism. They can done beautiful things but a lot of (, many, most**) them seems unable to see intellectually analytical and critical and surprise, about THEMSELVES. Why they think they are directly guilt by slavery in Africa***

    Because they are overwhelming ”blue eyes” or because their average-high iq, most of people here think they are just ”naive”. But naivety, specially this kind of ”naivety”, can also be treated without any problem as ”stupidity”. Humans at individual levels will be smart for some aspects/dimensions of intellect and stupid for others.

    Many artistic european geniuses made beautiful paintings, sculptures to the christianism but most them seems unable to be critic to the story of bible (sacred bubble).

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  • I was in Norway 5 years ago for almost 3 weeks driving around. The kids are knee-jerk about race, but polite (White ). The age of lost innocence is about 40 there. Those folks are wising up. One gal summed it up…We were very naive.

    Joe Webb

    Read More
    • Replies: @fnn
    The "innocence" was a construct of the post-1945 American Empire:

    http://conswede.blogspot.com/2008/07/social-paradigms-shift-eg-our-view-on.html

    To illustrate what I talk about. Louis Armstrong visited Sweden in 1933. In all the news papers he was describe as something monkey-like let loose from the jungle. All across the line! And in the reviews by the most serious music critics.

    Who would have imagined in 1933, that twelve years later Western Europe would undergo an America-led cultural revolution which would lead to the common belief that there are no differences between races?

    Translation of two of the quotes:

    Knut Bäck in Göteborgs-Posten, November 1933:
    "This world is strange... No protests are raised against how the jungle is let loose into the society. Armstrong and his band are allowed to freely wreak destruction."

    Sten Broman in Sydsvenskan, November 1933:
    "Dare I say that he at times had something monkey-like about him and sometimes reminded of, according to our perceptions, a mentally disturbed person, when he pouted with his mouth or gaped it to its widest open and roared like a hoarse animal from a primeval forest."

    The third quote compares the concert with a natural disaster, and Armstrong's trumpet with a hell machine. The only good thing coming out of it, he says, is that it solves to old dispute of whether monkeys have a language.

    This is what Europe looked like, up until 1945. And since some people will live under the misconception that this was a phenomenon of the '30s, I here provide a quote from the Swedish Encyclopedia, Nordisk Familjebok, the 1876-1899 edition (here and here).

    "Psychologically the negro can be said be on the level of a child, with vivid fantasy, lack of endurance, ... can be said to lack morality rather than being immoral ... etc."

    Even though the point here has been to illustrate how social paradigms can shift completely in short time (and this is just one out of numerous examples), let me add how up until 1945 all the focus was put on the differences between races, and after that all the focus has been put on what is equal (while ignoring differences).
     
    Old quote from the half-Jewish Moldbug: "I don't think it's a coincidence that the European ruling class holds essentially the same perspectives that were held at Harvard in 1945. The US Army did not shoot all the professors in Europe and replace them with Yankee carpetbaggers, but the prestige of conquest is such that it might as well have"
    , @Olorin
    Outstanding piece, looking forward to commenting more later. For now:

    "Why this hostility to Christianity? And why is it more extreme in Norway?

    Calls to mind the entry for that nation in The Onion's world atlas:

    Norway:
    Suppressing the urge to chop you in half with an axe
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @jeppo
    This also reflects certain profound psychological traits that characterize Northwest Europeans in general, with Scandinavians forming the epicenter.

    Scandinavia is the core of Nordic-Germanic-Protestant Europe because Scandinavians are more Nordic (taller, higher % of blond hair & blue eyes), more Germanic (fewer Latin, Celtic and Slavic influences on Scandi languages & bloodlines), and more Protestant (100% conversion of population to Protestantism 500 years ago) than anyone else.

    These distinct racial and cultural traits have made them simultaneously the most socially and technologically advanced societies on Earth, and also the most naive and suicidal.

    Germany, Holland and Britain are also Nordic, Germanic and Protestant, but somewhat less so than the Scandinavians. Then the partial outliers (Finland, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, the Anglo settler societies) round out the Northwest European nations.

    The other two European meta-cultures are the Mediterranean-Latin-Catholic one in the South, and the Alpine-Slavic-Orthodox one in the East.

    The core of the former are Italy, France, Spain and Portugal. The outliers are Greece, Cyprus, Malta and last remaining Euro-majority nations in Latin America, Argentina and Uruguay.

    The core of the latter are Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, and the Slavic Orthodox nations in the Balkans. The outliers include all the post-communist countries of Central and Eastern Europe, except East Germany.

    These three sub-civilizations are also divided on the most fundamental Western cultural preference of them all: alcoholic beverage of choice. In the north they prefer beer; in the south, wine; and in the east, spirits (mostly vodka).

    The beer-drinking northerners economically out-compete both the wine-drinking southerners and vodka-drinking easterners, but they're plagued by a pathological altruism that's much less apparent in the south, and practically non-existent in the east.

    And the Scandinavians are the most northerly of the northerners, in terms of both geography and behaviour. So, feeling guilty about their societal superiority -- guilt-proneness and efficiency are both Nordic-Germanic-Protestant traits -- they have voluntarily handicapped themselves by importing countless numbers of backward peoples. This way they can narrow the embarrassing (to them) gap between their standard of living and that of the rest of the world.

    This guilt-proneness, combined with the objectively better societies built by Northwest Europeans in general, and Scandinavians in particular, leads them to fanatically police themselves for any signs of "racism," i.e. acknowledging the obvious superiority of their countries and themselves, and the desire to keep things that way.

    So even if the flood of Africans and Muslims to Scandinavia/Northwest Europe is stopped, it will have served its purpose: to lower living standards so that Scandinavians/Northwest Europeans could no longer be seen as being better than everyone else. Equalism (and its twin, "anti-racism") brought to its inevitable conclusion.

    nice….but what type of alcohol makes any difference?

    Kevin MacDonald is working on a new book on the origins of the white race. He identifies, hunter gatherers of the north, farmers from middle east, and aristocratic warrior societies of the Indo-European type (yet nevertheless with military careers open to talent) as the 3 lineages.

    It seems that the Homer/ Iliad account is an example of the latter. What is far from clear to me is how the Warrior societies differ ethnically from the apparent cradle of the White race in the area around Ukraine and Black Sea.

    I assumed that the invasion/incursions into India which happened apparently around the same time as Mycennae and the Trojan War, was all part of the diaspora out of the Ukraine area.

    The DNA evidence is getting better and better, with a recent story in jrewyorktimes pushing back homo sapiens to 41,000 years ago in Europe…that represents one very long sojourn in the cold North, with the last Ice Age over about 10,000 years ago…lot of deselection of dummies under the snow and ice and cold.

    Joe Web

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  • @WhatEvvs

    Aside from a few frozen islands and a brief claim to part of Greenland, Norway never had a colonial empire.
     
    Norway didn't exist as a country until 1904. It would help if you familiarized yourself with the basics of Norwegian history.

    To the north and west of the Hajnal line, Europeans have long had weaker kinship ties and correspondingly stronger individualism. This social environment has in turn favored a greater emphasis on absolute, universally applicable rules, combined with a stronger desire to expel rule breakers.
     
    Wait a minute. Stronger individualism, but more effective consensus-forcing? This is a total logical contradiction.

    A poorly thought through article, which omits the fact that Norway didn't even exist as a country until 1904, and is based on an internal contradiction so glaring that you could drive a truck through it?

    Thank God for the internet, where anyone's scribblings can be published. Because this would earn you a D in any once-great university. Nowadays, you'd probably get a pass.

    But thanks for leaving out the Eskimos. For an Unz article, that's admirable.

    “Wait a minute. Stronger individualism, but more effective consensus-forcing? This is a total logical contradiction.”

    Not really, and you have to think about it some. Individualism when it comes to thinking, simply because of the individualist tendency itself, to go it alone, etc. requires rules which are different than rules in collectivist society. Collectivist society has “rules” but they are not “conscious” and thought out. One obeys the herd because the brain, or “lower brain” is simply following the genetic stamp. There is no consideration or even consciousness of the Rule. No Socratic dialogue, or (self) meditation. Just do what the tribe does, got it? End of Story.

    In individualist societies, the Rules have been very much thought out. And the Story continues. For example making murder a public concern larger than simply a private compensating of a family for their murdered victim is an act of Thinking. Homicide was invented as a rule that works better than private agreements of compensation that are easily avoided and/or subverted by blood feuds.

    Thus more intelligence finds it way in individualist societies. The need for a Rule to enforce the social peace becomes clear. And the rules become more and more widespread, to cover more and more aspects of social life. Bureaucracy replaces individual combat and blood feud.

    This piece reads a lot like a Kevin MacDonald discussion of the North and its hunter-gatherer genetic foundation. One of the features of a hunter -gatherer society is relative egalitarianism, the need for food sharing, and egalitarianism socially to keep the Strong Man from going too far. The Icelandic Sagas describe relatively democratic arrangements to keep the social peace, with chiefs subject to criticism, and containment of their personal power. Exile was the price for anyone going too far, politically or criminally.

    So today the Scandinavians, despite having a meritocratic social arrangement, their meritocracy is totally different, say, than the chinese who have a species of meritocracy.

    You may be richer than me, but you are not any better than me….etc. for Scandinavians. The Chinese…forget it…you number 10…outta here!

    So, once an egalitarian psychology is genetically established, the Swede etc welcomes the stranger…even, you know..

    Thus there is no contradiction between Individualism and ‘consensus forcing’. But you have to think about it. The ‘forcing’ aspect is part of the Rule/Order impulse of the North. This also developed in the northern churches, Protestants. Puritans were out to build the City on a Hill, a jewish totalitarian tendency from the OT which Protestants used to enforce Purity and Rules.

    Is there a latent collectivism possible in all of this? Of course, because man is a social animal, and a collectivism will be heard when Threats are felt, viscerally, not intellectually.
    The Threat is here now, and the intellectual in his church or parlor, safe so far, will undergo a sharp emotional storm when the muzzies and africans go after his daughter, his wife, or his wallet..big time.

    Maybe even the liberal will put his children first….now that would be a real breakthrough, assuming he has any kids, having spent his useless life digging wells in Africa.

    As for Breivik, he should be broken out of jail and executed…killing children.
    Joe Webb

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  • Interesting about Breivik hanging out with Muslims as a youth. I suspected he must have internalized some Muslim norms given the characteristics of his rampage. I used to document Muslim terrorism in various hotspots, and a pattern I came across was attacks on family members/clans. Weddings, funerals, family gatherings and such were common targets.

    Breivik deliberately targeted his enemies’ children, and I thought it was kind of remarkable how similar this was to incidents I read about from Kashmir, Iraq, etc. Makes sense from a Muslim perspective given clan loyalty and such.

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  • @jeppo
    This also reflects certain profound psychological traits that characterize Northwest Europeans in general, with Scandinavians forming the epicenter.

    Scandinavia is the core of Nordic-Germanic-Protestant Europe because Scandinavians are more Nordic (taller, higher % of blond hair & blue eyes), more Germanic (fewer Latin, Celtic and Slavic influences on Scandi languages & bloodlines), and more Protestant (100% conversion of population to Protestantism 500 years ago) than anyone else.

    These distinct racial and cultural traits have made them simultaneously the most socially and technologically advanced societies on Earth, and also the most naive and suicidal.

    Germany, Holland and Britain are also Nordic, Germanic and Protestant, but somewhat less so than the Scandinavians. Then the partial outliers (Finland, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, the Anglo settler societies) round out the Northwest European nations.

    The other two European meta-cultures are the Mediterranean-Latin-Catholic one in the South, and the Alpine-Slavic-Orthodox one in the East.

    The core of the former are Italy, France, Spain and Portugal. The outliers are Greece, Cyprus, Malta and last remaining Euro-majority nations in Latin America, Argentina and Uruguay.

    The core of the latter are Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, and the Slavic Orthodox nations in the Balkans. The outliers include all the post-communist countries of Central and Eastern Europe, except East Germany.

    These three sub-civilizations are also divided on the most fundamental Western cultural preference of them all: alcoholic beverage of choice. In the north they prefer beer; in the south, wine; and in the east, spirits (mostly vodka).

    The beer-drinking northerners economically out-compete both the wine-drinking southerners and vodka-drinking easterners, but they're plagued by a pathological altruism that's much less apparent in the south, and practically non-existent in the east.

    And the Scandinavians are the most northerly of the northerners, in terms of both geography and behaviour. So, feeling guilty about their societal superiority -- guilt-proneness and efficiency are both Nordic-Germanic-Protestant traits -- they have voluntarily handicapped themselves by importing countless numbers of backward peoples. This way they can narrow the embarrassing (to them) gap between their standard of living and that of the rest of the world.

    This guilt-proneness, combined with the objectively better societies built by Northwest Europeans in general, and Scandinavians in particular, leads them to fanatically police themselves for any signs of "racism," i.e. acknowledging the obvious superiority of their countries and themselves, and the desire to keep things that way.

    So even if the flood of Africans and Muslims to Scandinavia/Northwest Europe is stopped, it will have served its purpose: to lower living standards so that Scandinavians/Northwest Europeans could no longer be seen as being better than everyone else. Equalism (and its twin, "anti-racism") brought to its inevitable conclusion.

    Once again, you are totally wrong. You have a theory and you are force anything to fit your theory, no matter the facts.

    Poland, Czech and other use more and more beer and are catholics.

    Anthropologically, Poland, Belarus have as many nordics as Germany.

    Genetically, autosomal differences between
    Southern Germany and Northern Germany: 1.08

    Southern Germany and Poland 1.23
    Northern Germany and Poland 1.13

    Southern Germany and Sweden 1.22
    Northern Germany and Sweden 1.12

    Poland and Sweden 1.3

    Just read some Koneczny for fucks’ sake for example. In his classification Poland is Latin civilisation, Rusian are Byzantine-Turan, Germany is Bizantine.

    Or look on World Value Survey maps. Czech outlier of the same civilisation as Russia? Jesus, it so ignorant that I just lack words to express my disdain.

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    • Replies: @jeppo
    Or look on World Value Survey maps. Czech outlier of the same civilisation as Russia?

    All the former communist countries of Central and Eastern Europe cluster together, with the core states of Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria and Montenegro clustering especially closely.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Inglehart-Values-Map-Huge.png

    You'll notice that the Mediterranean-Latin-Catholic nations are tightly grouped as well, from Greece and France down to Portugal and Argentina.

    Protestant Europe and the English-speaking world sandwich Belgium, Luxembourg and Austria to make up the Nordic-Germanic-Protestant bloc.

    Jesus, it so ignorant that I just lack words to express my disdain.

    Maybe you need a thesaurus.

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  • I’m hardly an expert but wasn’t the universalism of Christianity strictly one of mission and conversion, of spreading the gospel, in which only a minority would be saved? For the rest, the vast majority, there would be gnashing of teeth in outer darkness? I don’t recall Jesus being ecumenical.

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  • @JayMan
    Actually, there's a neat little map that shows heavy metal bans per capita. It peaks in Scandinavia. The map can be found here, where it matches other patterns:

    Clannishness – The Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain

    Readers see also:

    The Rise of Universalism

    Thanks JayMan! Can it be that the Hajnal line will determine whether nations survive?

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  • This also reflects certain profound psychological traits that characterize Northwest Europeans in general, with Scandinavians forming the epicenter.

    Scandinavia is the core of Nordic-Germanic-Protestant Europe because Scandinavians are more Nordic (taller, higher % of blond hair & blue eyes), more Germanic (fewer Latin, Celtic and Slavic influences on Scandi languages & bloodlines), and more Protestant (100% conversion of population to Protestantism 500 years ago) than anyone else.

    These distinct racial and cultural traits have made them simultaneously the most socially and technologically advanced societies on Earth, and also the most naive and suicidal.

    Germany, Holland and Britain are also Nordic, Germanic and Protestant, but somewhat less so than the Scandinavians. Then the partial outliers (Finland, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, the Anglo settler societies) round out the Northwest European nations.

    The other two European meta-cultures are the Mediterranean-Latin-Catholic one in the South, and the Alpine-Slavic-Orthodox one in the East.

    The core of the former are Italy, France, Spain and Portugal. The outliers are Greece, Cyprus, Malta and last remaining Euro-majority nations in Latin America, Argentina and Uruguay.

    The core of the latter are Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, and the Slavic Orthodox nations in the Balkans. The outliers include all the post-communist countries of Central and Eastern Europe, except East Germany.

    These three sub-civilizations are also divided on the most fundamental Western cultural preference of them all: alcoholic beverage of choice. In the north they prefer beer; in the south, wine; and in the east, spirits (mostly vodka).

    The beer-drinking northerners economically out-compete both the wine-drinking southerners and vodka-drinking easterners, but they’re plagued by a pathological altruism that’s much less apparent in the south, and practically non-existent in the east.

    And the Scandinavians are the most northerly of the northerners, in terms of both geography and behaviour. So, feeling guilty about their societal superiority — guilt-proneness and efficiency are both Nordic-Germanic-Protestant traits — they have voluntarily handicapped themselves by importing countless numbers of backward peoples. This way they can narrow the embarrassing (to them) gap between their standard of living and that of the rest of the world.

    This guilt-proneness, combined with the objectively better societies built by Northwest Europeans in general, and Scandinavians in particular, leads them to fanatically police themselves for any signs of “racism,” i.e. acknowledging the obvious superiority of their countries and themselves, and the desire to keep things that way.

    So even if the flood of Africans and Muslims to Scandinavia/Northwest Europe is stopped, it will have served its purpose: to lower living standards so that Scandinavians/Northwest Europeans could no longer be seen as being better than everyone else. Equalism (and its twin, “anti-racism”) brought to its inevitable conclusion.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    Once again, you are totally wrong. You have a theory and you are force anything to fit your theory, no matter the facts.

    Poland, Czech and other use more and more beer and are catholics.

    Anthropologically, Poland, Belarus have as many nordics as Germany.

    Genetically, autosomal differences between
    Southern Germany and Northern Germany: 1.08

    Southern Germany and Poland 1.23
    Northern Germany and Poland 1.13

    Southern Germany and Sweden 1.22
    Northern Germany and Sweden 1.12

    Poland and Sweden 1.3

    Just read some Koneczny for fucks' sake for example. In his classification Poland is Latin civilisation, Rusian are Byzantine-Turan, Germany is Bizantine.

    Or look on World Value Survey maps. Czech outlier of the same civilisation as Russia? Jesus, it so ignorant that I just lack words to express my disdain.
    , @joe webb
    nice....but what type of alcohol makes any difference?

    Kevin MacDonald is working on a new book on the origins of the white race. He identifies, hunter gatherers of the north, farmers from middle east, and aristocratic warrior societies of the Indo-European type (yet nevertheless with military careers open to talent) as the 3 lineages.

    It seems that the Homer/ Iliad account is an example of the latter. What is far from clear to me is how the Warrior societies differ ethnically from the apparent cradle of the White race in the area around Ukraine and Black Sea.

    I assumed that the invasion/incursions into India which happened apparently around the same time as Mycennae and the Trojan War, was all part of the diaspora out of the Ukraine area.

    The DNA evidence is getting better and better, with a recent story in jrewyorktimes pushing back homo sapiens to 41,000 years ago in Europe...that represents one very long sojourn in the cold North, with the last Ice Age over about 10,000 years ago...lot of deselection of dummies under the snow and ice and cold.

    Joe Web
    , @Santoculto
    Scandi''naiveans'' are just adapted/decanted high functioning autism. They can done beautiful things but a lot of (, many, most**) them seems unable to see intellectually analytical and critical and surprise, about THEMSELVES. Why they think they are directly guilt by slavery in Africa***

    Because they are overwhelming ''blue eyes'' or because their average-high iq, most of people here think they are just ''naive''. But naivety, specially this kind of ''naivety'', can also be treated without any problem as ''stupidity''. Humans at individual levels will be smart for some aspects/dimensions of intellect and stupid for others.

    Many artistic european geniuses made beautiful paintings, sculptures to the christianism but most them seems unable to be critic to the story of bible (sacred bubble).
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  • @Anonymous
    Jesus was black? That reconstruction you link to does not depict a black man.

    HERE IS THE RECONSTRUCTED FACE OF JEWS-US: A DARK BROWN OR BLACK MAN

    I am sorry, if the Popular Mechanics link was not working right. Here is another link to see the face of Jewsus:

    From CNN.com : “From science and computers, a new face of Jesus”: By Jeordan Legon
    CNN, Thursday, December 26, 2002 Posted: 9:45 AM EST (1445 GMT)

    “(CNN) — The Jesus pictured on the cover of this month’s Popular Mechanics has a broad peasant’s face, DARK OLIVE SKIN, short curly hair and a prominent nose. He would have stood 5-foot-1-inch tall and weighed 110 pounds, if the magazine is to be believed.”

    See:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/12/25/face.jesus/

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I saw it the first time. That's not a picture of a black man. That's a picture of a scruffy, olive skinned Caucasoid, a type common in the Mediterranean.
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  • @German_reader
    "The Norwegians remain alert to the threat from Russia and made a glossy TV series about an fictional conquest by their neighbour. "

    That's a bizarre thing I don't get about the mainstream in present-day Western Europe...one is supposed to be totally ok with nation-destroying mass immigration, but at the same time people get all hysterical about the supposed threat from Russia (which is presented as if it's some real life Mordor). Simply idiotic.

    Simply propaganda, you mean, by the cultural marxists in the media who want to destroy western civilization.

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  • @WhatEvvs

    Aside from a few frozen islands and a brief claim to part of Greenland, Norway never had a colonial empire.
     
    Norway didn't exist as a country until 1904. It would help if you familiarized yourself with the basics of Norwegian history.

    To the north and west of the Hajnal line, Europeans have long had weaker kinship ties and correspondingly stronger individualism. This social environment has in turn favored a greater emphasis on absolute, universally applicable rules, combined with a stronger desire to expel rule breakers.
     
    Wait a minute. Stronger individualism, but more effective consensus-forcing? This is a total logical contradiction.

    A poorly thought through article, which omits the fact that Norway didn't even exist as a country until 1904, and is based on an internal contradiction so glaring that you could drive a truck through it?

    Thank God for the internet, where anyone's scribblings can be published. Because this would earn you a D in any once-great university. Nowadays, you'd probably get a pass.

    But thanks for leaving out the Eskimos. For an Unz article, that's admirable.

    Norway existed for many hundreds of years before 1904, as the Battle of Stamford Bridge in 1066 demonstrates. For much of that time it was ruled by Denmark, but to claim Norway didn’t exist is like saying that India didn’t exist during the British Raj.

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  • @Priss Factor
    "Over the past half-century, however, Norwegians have been persuaded that the supreme rule is Thou shalt not be racist."

    This is why we must turn racism into a positive idear.

    We must say WE ARE PROUD TO BE RACE-IST, meaning we believe in the existence of race, racial differences, and validity of racial consciousness.

    Ism means belief. We believe in race, so being race-ist is great.

    We all need to wear a T-shirt that says PROUD TO BE RACE-IST.

    As a Sikh, I take that personally as many of them were my brothers

    Sons of the Devi Danu & Rishi Kashyap

    We will not stop until all abrahamic civilization is destroyed.

    As far as the racist thing, why would you adopt or co-opt a communist abrahamic term. That’s just the new christianity,

    Fact is you say this:

    This is our land, we are danavas those outsiders follow a foreign ideology which seeks to take what is holy to us & make it unholy (normative inversion is all Jewish culture is).

    They seek to rape our sisters & daughters & defence of the motherland is our only duty.

    Abrahamic semitic culture of Arabs & Jews is not welcome in a land of Dharam.

    Don’t poison your mind with abrahamic memes it only hurts it.

    For normative inversion stuff see the page twitter.com/hindulsm with an L.

    He goes into how Jews killed dogs in Persia, cow in Japan & India, bull & ram in Egypt.

    Connect the dots, they’re against nature clearly shown by circumcision.

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  • @conatus
    The northern north like Norway and the like, seem to me to be Christianized by terror. The very same sort of terror at the same time in the 700s the Muslims were using to Islamasize great stretches of the Mediterranean coast. Actually the terror here was Christian terror used by Charlemagne to tame the Saxons and also terrorize their northern cousins.
    In 782 Charlemagne was pissed at the Saxons so he baptized 4,500 men and then cut off their heads at Verden. Sounds positively Islamic.

    Rodney Stark, who has written a boatload of books on the idea that ‘Christianity is good’ (relatively speaking) has another recent book out titled ‘How the West Won.’(2014) Regarding pre-Christian Europe, especially northern Europe, nowadays few people discuss the beheading of the 4500 Saxons in 782 at Verden in the name of the Prince of Peace. In today’s demographics that is 180,000 hairy dudes. That is a lot of men, who, contrary to our time, were very valuable as a resource in those days. A few years ago I had never heard of Verden and usually understood the success of Christianity as due to its greater guilt generating activities creating more cooperation.

    In this view (just a suggestion in the book) Christianity was imposed in the most brutal fashion on the people of the North, it was a religion they did not want, it was not the doctrine that attracted them, it was the simple idea of living another day that forced them to pay lip service to Jesus. It was a forcible conversion of fear for the people of the North, not a conversion of belief. On p. 97 Stark discusses the idea that the Vikings, a hundred years later, targeted British Monasteries and Monks, not necessarily because they were defenseless but “because they were angry about efforts to Christianize the North. Especially provocative would have been the atrocities committed by Charlemagne, who, for example, had about 4,500 unarmed Saxon captives forcibly baptized and then executed. The Vikings seem to have known that Charlemagne had issued an edict imposing the death sentence on all who tried to resist Christianization.”

    Stark cites a 2009 book by Robert Ferguson for this idea about the Vikings attacking religious centers in England as a sort of revenge, ‘The Vikings, a History,’ p 54.

    So you could look at the Christianization of the North as a forced conversion of terror.

    Stark has written other books on the Christianization of the Roman Empire emphasizing Christianity’s emphasis on the the respect for women and the coming together to help the sick and poor, two things Paganism, which was more Darwinist, ignored. But here he acknowledges Christianity was not always the religion of peace.

    At the same time as the Saxon beheadings, Charlemagne, again in the name of the price of peace sent every third Saxon family south to live and be Christianized. Ethnically cleansed and beheaded the Saxons converted. Perhaps they learned their lessons too well, nowadays maybe they love too much.

    Mass beheadings and ethnic cleansing, two ideas you will not hear discussed much from the pulpit on Sunday mornings.

    As a Sikh, I take that personally as many of them were my brothers

    Sons of the Devi Danu & Rishi Kashyap

    We will not stop until all abrahamic civilization is destroyed.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You have me totally confused. What are you saying? Indeed what and who are you replying to?

    What have Sikhs got to do with Christians, or Muslims for that matter?
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  • @Sean
    Does Wealth Really Kill Religion?

    Breivik:If I ever got in to trouble I expected my friends to back me up 100% without submitting or running away, as I would for them.
     
    I have read a bit of DS Wilson on groups, and recently some interesting things about oxytocin and its effect of making people courageous in defence of what they hold dear. The hormone is involved with the tend and defend response, which can be activated by kin in some kind in dificulty or under threat but apparently the kinship group is basically similar to other types of group.

    A neighbourhood circle of friends becomes a tighter group when there is the prospect of needing help. But there are other groups, and when one's group might be in jeopardy the tend and defend response kicks in for the group's benefit. The potential of external peril of some sortis the key to understanding why the attitude to ones group over against outsiders is not unconditional in all circumstances. While commitment to the wider group and its members may be 100% when one might be in need for help from fellow members, when there is no stress on them people are far less inclined to make social connection with others.

    Having a bunch of people who can call on you for support is a cost that is only worth paying if you might be in jeopardy, and secure people feel much less part of a group, and a wider group of such individualistic people is far less cohesive and sensitive to collective jeopardy.
    Traditional allegiances have become nominal throughout the West as the lives of ordinary people have become easier. Religious institutions were strong when people could not get enough to eat, but faded while obesity became a problem and economic circumstances improved.

    In trying to become relevant in a materially flourishing society religion has, I think, taken on a new role whereby it looks beyond traditional allegiances to a wider entity, while retaining the old rules about expecting members to give 100% backing. Norway is notable for being small and having benefited a lot from its oil, which made then a rich country with a generous social safety net. I believe Norway's particularly rapidly improvement in materiel living conditions explains much of their failure to perceive clearly apparent immigration trends as something worth opposing .

    The Norwegians remain alert to the threat from Russia and made a glossy TV series about an fictional conquest by their neighbour. Meanwhile the Russians are mounting a very real proxy invasion by allowing a collection of migrants to cross Russia to get to its border with Norway. I think the West is beyond the point of no return unless there is a the prospect of a serious danger of an unmistakable type, because societies are still organised on the principal that they must defend themselves. To the extent governments have understanding of their purpose they think it's making the country stronger (diversity is our strength). The lack of a tangible threat is leading to dissolution.

    “The Norwegians remain alert to the threat from Russia and made a glossy TV series about an fictional conquest by their neighbour. ”

    That’s a bizarre thing I don’t get about the mainstream in present-day Western Europe…one is supposed to be totally ok with nation-destroying mass immigration, but at the same time people get all hysterical about the supposed threat from Russia (which is presented as if it’s some real life Mordor). Simply idiotic.

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    • Replies: @pyrrhus
    Simply propaganda, you mean, by the cultural marxists in the media who want to destroy western civilization.
    , @Sean
    Nation states can't survive in perpetual peace, that much is now clear. Rich countries have a population that feels secure. Immigration is not seen as an external threat, that is why other nations occupying Norwegians' land it is not reacted to like the prospect f an invasion from another state. A real threat from a foreign state would not be ignored even if it was very tenuous, like the Russian one is. People have frequently suspected the government of creating false threats.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Report_from_Iron_Mountain (1967)The heavily footnoted report concluded that peace was not in the interest of a stable society, that even if lasting peace "could be achieved, it would almost certainly not be in the best interests of society to achieve it." War was a part of the economy. Therefore, it was necessary to conceive a state of war for a stable economy. The government, the group theorized, would not exist without war, and nation states existed in order to wage war. War also served a vital function of diverting collective aggression. They recommended that bodies be created to emulate the economic functions of war. They also recommended "blood games" and that the government create alternative foes that would scare the people with reports of alien life-forms and out-of-control pollution.
     
    The foe has become the majority of the population, whose ethnic homogeneity makes them potentially a rival power base. Moreover they not needed as cannon fodder and are blaise. The foreign immigrants are the new friends of the elite and the state, and the social capital of immigrants is boosted by claiming they are the subject of prejudice and discrimination. Mark my words, Jihadist terror attacks are creating a massive surveillance and a disaster for indigenous nationalists, who will become the threat that the security apparatus will be turned on.

    There is some hope howerver:_


    http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/?p=451 First, both assume that the end of the Cold War did in fact represent a critical turning point in history. Either such as marked the end of one kind of conflict and the beginning of another (Huntington); or that represented the beginning of a process which would eventually culminate in a world without war and thus to the End of History (Fukuyama).

    Second and perhaps even more important, both focus on what, for lack of a better term, I shall call spiritual factors. For Fukuyama, the paramount one is ideology. For Huntington, it is identity. In doing so they leave out any other number of factors that have always led, and presumably will continue to lead, to war in the future too. Chief among them are technological developments; competition for economic resources in a world where such resources are said to become less and less plentiful; and, over-arching everything else, the “perpetual and restless desire for power after power that ceaseth only in death” (Thomas Hobbes). The least one can say is that, in any attempt to understand the future of war, these factors must take a paramount place side by side with those Fukuyama and Huntington have focused on.
     

    As Mearsheimer (who advised Ukraine to have an independent nuclear deterrent andpredicted Ukraine's troubles if it didn't 20 years before the event) says, negative consequences flow from “ policy that assumes good faith in the future does not seek survival above all else, and amounts to “foolish behavior”.

    [...] Given the difficulty of determining how much power is enough for today and tomorrow, great powers recognize that the best way to ensure their security is to achieve hegemony now, thus eliminating any possibility of a challenge by another great power. Only a misguided state would pass up an opportunity to be the hegemon in the system because it thought it already had sufficient power to survive
     
    Norway is not being made stronger by taking in immigrants, but it is not going to be disabused unless it gets a threat it can recognise.

    That won’t be easy. No one wants to be a “bad” person, and in a conformist society like Norway a rule-breaker is “bad” no matter how stupid the rule may seem. As long as the rule is affirmed and never challenged, people will obey and make others obey. Only when enough people challenge it—openly and defiantly—will the moral consensus weaken and collapse. To get from here to there will be difficult but it can be done. Rules of sexual morality were deconstructed. Why not antiracism?
     
    It is like a bird realising that its nest contains a cuckoo egg, if the cuckoo chick has been removed when their mother comes back to check, the genuine chicks are attacked. It's safer to go along.
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  • @Romanian
    Yes, it is, and it is also very well and profitably run, though they seem to be getting ready to draw from it to support the refugees which are stressing the welfare state. Unfortunately, the success of Sovereign Wealth Funds like Norway's and Singapore's Temasek has led to this model being adopted quite widely, especially in shitty countries which are resource rich and also corrupt. A wealth fund like this is the perfect vehicle for disguising the theft of public money or for parking said money outside of the country, instead of spending it inside, on better infrastructure, education or simply handing out a yearly cash prize to the people, like Alaska's fund etc.

    Interesting, thanks.

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  • @anonymous coward

    Something seems to be fundamentally wrong with many Scandinavians, with Germans as well…
     
    A direct result of the heresies of Lutheranism. There's always payback for heresy sooner or later.

    Catholic Germans nowadays are just as messed up and pro-immigration as Protestants so I don’t find that convincing.

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  • @WhatEvvs

    Aside from a few frozen islands and a brief claim to part of Greenland, Norway never had a colonial empire.
     
    Norway didn't exist as a country until 1904. It would help if you familiarized yourself with the basics of Norwegian history.

    To the north and west of the Hajnal line, Europeans have long had weaker kinship ties and correspondingly stronger individualism. This social environment has in turn favored a greater emphasis on absolute, universally applicable rules, combined with a stronger desire to expel rule breakers.
     
    Wait a minute. Stronger individualism, but more effective consensus-forcing? This is a total logical contradiction.

    A poorly thought through article, which omits the fact that Norway didn't even exist as a country until 1904, and is based on an internal contradiction so glaring that you could drive a truck through it?

    Thank God for the internet, where anyone's scribblings can be published. Because this would earn you a D in any once-great university. Nowadays, you'd probably get a pass.

    But thanks for leaving out the Eskimos. For an Unz article, that's admirable.

    A quick peak at Wikipedia shows that the Kingdom of Norway reached it’s greatest size in 1265 AD. There was a place called Norway and a people who identified as Norwegian even before it became a modern, independent nation-state in 1905.

    “Stronger individualism, but more effective consensus-forcing? This is a total logical contradiction.”

    Not even close. Peoples with stronger kinship ties don’t need to worry about “absolute, universally applicable rules” and expelling rule-breakers, because the blood ties are what they use to identify who is fit to be part of their group.

    Nice try, though. I guess the sheer force of your smug attitude alone makes you right.

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  • @WhatEvvs

    Aside from a few frozen islands and a brief claim to part of Greenland, Norway never had a colonial empire.
     
    Norway didn't exist as a country until 1904. It would help if you familiarized yourself with the basics of Norwegian history.

    To the north and west of the Hajnal line, Europeans have long had weaker kinship ties and correspondingly stronger individualism. This social environment has in turn favored a greater emphasis on absolute, universally applicable rules, combined with a stronger desire to expel rule breakers.
     
    Wait a minute. Stronger individualism, but more effective consensus-forcing? This is a total logical contradiction.

    A poorly thought through article, which omits the fact that Norway didn't even exist as a country until 1904, and is based on an internal contradiction so glaring that you could drive a truck through it?

    Thank God for the internet, where anyone's scribblings can be published. Because this would earn you a D in any once-great university. Nowadays, you'd probably get a pass.

    But thanks for leaving out the Eskimos. For an Unz article, that's admirable.

    Norway didn’t exist as a country until 1904.

    Yes, it did, only it was under the thumb of Denmark from the Middle Ages, and under the thumb of Sweden from the early 19th century.

    Stronger individualism, but more effective consensus-forcing? This is a total logical contradiction.

    Wrong. Stronger individualism as in less importance of kin and clan; more effective consensus-forcing as in more conformity and belief in what your betters tell you.

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  • Actually, there’s a neat little map that shows heavy metal bans per capita. It peaks in Scandinavia. The map can be found here, where it matches other patterns:

    Clannishness – The Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain

    Readers see also:

    The Rise of Universalism

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    • Replies: @pyrrhus
    Thanks JayMan! Can it be that the Hajnal line will determine whether nations survive?
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  • WhatEvvs [AKA "Internet Addict"] says:

    Aside from a few frozen islands and a brief claim to part of Greenland, Norway never had a colonial empire.

    Norway didn’t exist as a country until 1904. It would help if you familiarized yourself with the basics of Norwegian history.

    To the north and west of the Hajnal line, Europeans have long had weaker kinship ties and correspondingly stronger individualism. This social environment has in turn favored a greater emphasis on absolute, universally applicable rules, combined with a stronger desire to expel rule breakers.

    Wait a minute. Stronger individualism, but more effective consensus-forcing? This is a total logical contradiction.

    A poorly thought through article, which omits the fact that Norway didn’t even exist as a country until 1904, and is based on an internal contradiction so glaring that you could drive a truck through it?

    Thank God for the internet, where anyone’s scribblings can be published. Because this would earn you a D in any once-great university. Nowadays, you’d probably get a pass.

    But thanks for leaving out the Eskimos. For an Unz article, that’s admirable.

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    • Replies: @TBA

    Norway didn’t exist as a country until 1904.
     
    Yes, it did, only it was under the thumb of Denmark from the Middle Ages, and under the thumb of Sweden from the early 19th century.

    Stronger individualism, but more effective consensus-forcing? This is a total logical contradiction.
     
    Wrong. Stronger individualism as in less importance of kin and clan; more effective consensus-forcing as in more conformity and belief in what your betters tell you.
    , @Jackdaw
    A quick peak at Wikipedia shows that the Kingdom of Norway reached it's greatest size in 1265 AD. There was a place called Norway and a people who identified as Norwegian even before it became a modern, independent nation-state in 1905.

    "Stronger individualism, but more effective consensus-forcing? This is a total logical contradiction."

    Not even close. Peoples with stronger kinship ties don't need to worry about "absolute, universally applicable rules" and expelling rule-breakers, because the blood ties are what they use to identify who is fit to be part of their group.

    Nice try, though. I guess the sheer force of your smug attitude alone makes you right.
    , @pyrrhus
    Norway existed for many hundreds of years before 1904, as the Battle of Stamford Bridge in 1066 demonstrates. For much of that time it was ruled by Denmark, but to claim Norway didn't exist is like saying that India didn't exist during the British Raj.
    , @joe webb
    "Wait a minute. Stronger individualism, but more effective consensus-forcing? This is a total logical contradiction."

    Not really, and you have to think about it some. Individualism when it comes to thinking, simply because of the individualist tendency itself, to go it alone, etc. requires rules which are different than rules in collectivist society. Collectivist society has "rules" but they are not "conscious" and thought out. One obeys the herd because the brain, or "lower brain" is simply following the genetic stamp. There is no consideration or even consciousness of the Rule. No Socratic dialogue, or (self) meditation. Just do what the tribe does, got it? End of Story.

    In individualist societies, the Rules have been very much thought out. And the Story continues. For example making murder a public concern larger than simply a private compensating of a family for their murdered victim is an act of Thinking. Homicide was invented as a rule that works better than private agreements of compensation that are easily avoided and/or subverted by blood feuds.

    Thus more intelligence finds it way in individualist societies. The need for a Rule to enforce the social peace becomes clear. And the rules become more and more widespread, to cover more and more aspects of social life. Bureaucracy replaces individual combat and blood feud.

    This piece reads a lot like a Kevin MacDonald discussion of the North and its hunter-gatherer genetic foundation. One of the features of a hunter -gatherer society is relative egalitarianism, the need for food sharing, and egalitarianism socially to keep the Strong Man from going too far. The Icelandic Sagas describe relatively democratic arrangements to keep the social peace, with chiefs subject to criticism, and containment of their personal power. Exile was the price for anyone going too far, politically or criminally.

    So today the Scandinavians, despite having a meritocratic social arrangement, their meritocracy is totally different, say, than the chinese who have a species of meritocracy.

    You may be richer than me, but you are not any better than me....etc. for Scandinavians. The Chinese...forget it...you number 10...outta here!

    So, once an egalitarian psychology is genetically established, the Swede etc welcomes the stranger...even, you know..

    Thus there is no contradiction between Individualism and 'consensus forcing'. But you have to think about it. The 'forcing' aspect is part of the Rule/Order impulse of the North. This also developed in the northern churches, Protestants. Puritans were out to build the City on a Hill, a jewish totalitarian tendency from the OT which Protestants used to enforce Purity and Rules.

    Is there a latent collectivism possible in all of this? Of course, because man is a social animal, and a collectivism will be heard when Threats are felt, viscerally, not intellectually.
    The Threat is here now, and the intellectual in his church or parlor, safe so far, will undergo a sharp emotional storm when the muzzies and africans go after his daughter, his wife, or his wallet..big time.

    Maybe even the liberal will put his children first....now that would be a real breakthrough, assuming he has any kids, having spent his useless life digging wells in Africa.

    As for Breivik, he should be broken out of jail and executed...killing children.
    Joe Webb
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  • @helena
    Is it true that Norway has the largest Sovereign Wealth Fund in the world?

    Yes, it is, and it is also very well and profitably run, though they seem to be getting ready to draw from it to support the refugees which are stressing the welfare state. Unfortunately, the success of Sovereign Wealth Funds like Norway’s and Singapore’s Temasek has led to this model being adopted quite widely, especially in shitty countries which are resource rich and also corrupt. A wealth fund like this is the perfect vehicle for disguising the theft of public money or for parking said money outside of the country, instead of spending it inside, on better infrastructure, education or simply handing out a yearly cash prize to the people, like Alaska’s fund etc.

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    • Replies: @helena
    Interesting, thanks.
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  • @Priss Factor
    "Over the past half-century, however, Norwegians have been persuaded that the supreme rule is Thou shalt not be racist."

    This is why we must turn racism into a positive idear.

    We must say WE ARE PROUD TO BE RACE-IST, meaning we believe in the existence of race, racial differences, and validity of racial consciousness.

    Ism means belief. We believe in race, so being race-ist is great.

    We all need to wear a T-shirt that says PROUD TO BE RACE-IST.

    We must say WE ARE PROUD TO BE RACE-IST,

    I agree totally, Prissy. As a matter of fact, I think you should start the ball rolling bright and early Monday morning, by sending a mass email stating such to your entire company.

    Bro, YOU’RE MADD AS HELLL AND YOU’RE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!

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    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    "As a matter of fact, I think you should start the ball rolling bright and early Monday morning, by sending a mass email stating such to your entire company."

    Ni**a, you mus' be craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazy.
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  • WhatEvvs [AKA "Internet Addict"] says:
    @German_reader
    Don't know if Breivik should be cited...not for moral reasons, but how reliable is his account of his youth really? Have his recollections ever been independently corroborated? He could be making a lot of things up, not necessarily even consciously, just creating a convenient narrative for his self-represenation (a bit like Hitler in "Mein Kampf").
    Apart from that, hard to disagree. Something seems to be fundamentally wrong with many Scandinavians, with Germans as well...hard not to feel profound contempt for them. I just hope Eastern Europeans won't make the same mistakes (Italy might not be that bad either...has too many immigrants, but people there seem less susceptible to guilt-tripping, and the Lega might achieve something).

    Breivik was nuts, but his account of growing up strikes me as pretty typical of growing up white (i.e. default “no identity”) in a racially hostile environment, where the so-called other does have an identity. So why not quote him?

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    • Replies: @ogunsiron
    That account of his youth also struck me as very plausible.
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  • @conatus
    The northern north like Norway and the like, seem to me to be Christianized by terror. The very same sort of terror at the same time in the 700s the Muslims were using to Islamasize great stretches of the Mediterranean coast. Actually the terror here was Christian terror used by Charlemagne to tame the Saxons and also terrorize their northern cousins.
    In 782 Charlemagne was pissed at the Saxons so he baptized 4,500 men and then cut off their heads at Verden. Sounds positively Islamic.

    Rodney Stark, who has written a boatload of books on the idea that ‘Christianity is good’ (relatively speaking) has another recent book out titled ‘How the West Won.’(2014) Regarding pre-Christian Europe, especially northern Europe, nowadays few people discuss the beheading of the 4500 Saxons in 782 at Verden in the name of the Prince of Peace. In today’s demographics that is 180,000 hairy dudes. That is a lot of men, who, contrary to our time, were very valuable as a resource in those days. A few years ago I had never heard of Verden and usually understood the success of Christianity as due to its greater guilt generating activities creating more cooperation.

    In this view (just a suggestion in the book) Christianity was imposed in the most brutal fashion on the people of the North, it was a religion they did not want, it was not the doctrine that attracted them, it was the simple idea of living another day that forced them to pay lip service to Jesus. It was a forcible conversion of fear for the people of the North, not a conversion of belief. On p. 97 Stark discusses the idea that the Vikings, a hundred years later, targeted British Monasteries and Monks, not necessarily because they were defenseless but “because they were angry about efforts to Christianize the North. Especially provocative would have been the atrocities committed by Charlemagne, who, for example, had about 4,500 unarmed Saxon captives forcibly baptized and then executed. The Vikings seem to have known that Charlemagne had issued an edict imposing the death sentence on all who tried to resist Christianization.”

    Stark cites a 2009 book by Robert Ferguson for this idea about the Vikings attacking religious centers in England as a sort of revenge, ‘The Vikings, a History,’ p 54.

    So you could look at the Christianization of the North as a forced conversion of terror.

    Stark has written other books on the Christianization of the Roman Empire emphasizing Christianity’s emphasis on the the respect for women and the coming together to help the sick and poor, two things Paganism, which was more Darwinist, ignored. But here he acknowledges Christianity was not always the religion of peace.

    At the same time as the Saxon beheadings, Charlemagne, again in the name of the price of peace sent every third Saxon family south to live and be Christianized. Ethnically cleansed and beheaded the Saxons converted. Perhaps they learned their lessons too well, nowadays maybe they love too much.

    Mass beheadings and ethnic cleansing, two ideas you will not hear discussed much from the pulpit on Sunday mornings.

    There were centuries of bloody conflict between Saxons and Franks with religion being a major issue. Periodically the Saxons would revolt against Frankish rule, slaughtering the Christian clergy during these revolts. The Franks would then bloodily reassert Frankish and Christian rule.

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  • @German_reader
    Don't know if Breivik should be cited...not for moral reasons, but how reliable is his account of his youth really? Have his recollections ever been independently corroborated? He could be making a lot of things up, not necessarily even consciously, just creating a convenient narrative for his self-represenation (a bit like Hitler in "Mein Kampf").
    Apart from that, hard to disagree. Something seems to be fundamentally wrong with many Scandinavians, with Germans as well...hard not to feel profound contempt for them. I just hope Eastern Europeans won't make the same mistakes (Italy might not be that bad either...has too many immigrants, but people there seem less susceptible to guilt-tripping, and the Lega might achieve something).

    Norway mass killer, Anders Behring Breivik, in his 1500-page Manifesto praised Jewish Pamela Geller of ‘Atlas Shrugs’ and Christian Zionist Robert Spencer of ‘Jihad Watch’ – for inspiring him hating Muslims.

    Norway government is pro-Israel but country is home to some of Europe’s worst “Jew haters”.

    Norway’s well-known sociologist, professor Johan Galtung, claims that six Jewish companies control 96% of the world’s mainstream media, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is real, and that Norwegian mass killer Anders Behring Breivik belongs to Freemasonry cult which is based on Judaism and 9/11 was inside/Mossad job.

    http://rehmat1.com/2012/10/23/jewish-lobby-norwegian-hates-israel/

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  • Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factory"] says: • Website

    “Over the past half-century, however, Norwegians have been persuaded that the supreme rule is Thou shalt not be racist.”

    This is why we must turn racism into a positive idear.

    We must say WE ARE PROUD TO BE RACE-IST, meaning we believe in the existence of race, racial differences, and validity of racial consciousness.

    Ism means belief. We believe in race, so being race-ist is great.

    We all need to wear a T-shirt that says PROUD TO BE RACE-IST.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth



    We must say WE ARE PROUD TO BE RACE-IST,
     
    I agree totally, Prissy. As a matter of fact, I think you should start the ball rolling bright and early Monday morning, by sending a mass email stating such to your entire company.

    Bro, YOU'RE MADD AS HELLL AND YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!
    , @singh.jatt
    As a Sikh, I take that personally as many of them were my brothers

    Sons of the Devi Danu & Rishi Kashyap

    We will not stop until all abrahamic civilization is destroyed.

    @conatus

    As far as the racist thing, why would you adopt or co-opt a communist abrahamic term. That's just the new christianity,

    Fact is you say this:

    This is our land, we are danavas those outsiders follow a foreign ideology which seeks to take what is holy to us & make it unholy (normative inversion is all Jewish culture is).

    They seek to rape our sisters & daughters & defence of the motherland is our only duty.

    Abrahamic semitic culture of Arabs & Jews is not welcome in a land of Dharam.

    Don't poison your mind with abrahamic memes it only hurts it.

    For normative inversion stuff see the page twitter.com/hindulsm with an L.

    He goes into how Jews killed dogs in Persia, cow in Japan & India, bull & ram in Egypt.

    Connect the dots, they're against nature clearly shown by circumcision.
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  • Does Wealth Really Kill Religion?

    Breivik:If I ever got in to trouble I expected my friends to back me up 100% without submitting or running away, as I would for them.

    I have read a bit of DS Wilson on groups, and recently some interesting things about oxytocin and its effect of making people courageous in defence of what they hold dear. The hormone is involved with the tend and defend response, which can be activated by kin in some kind in dificulty or under threat but apparently the kinship group is basically similar to other types of group.

    A neighbourhood circle of friends becomes a tighter group when there is the prospect of needing help. But there are other groups, and when one’s group might be in jeopardy the tend and defend response kicks in for the group’s benefit. The potential of external peril of some sortis the key to understanding why the attitude to ones group over against outsiders is not unconditional in all circumstances. While commitment to the wider group and its members may be 100% when one might be in need for help from fellow members, when there is no stress on them people are far less inclined to make social connection with others.

    Having a bunch of people who can call on you for support is a cost that is only worth paying if you might be in jeopardy, and secure people feel much less part of a group, and a wider group of such individualistic people is far less cohesive and sensitive to collective jeopardy.
    Traditional allegiances have become nominal throughout the West as the lives of ordinary people have become easier. Religious institutions were strong when people could not get enough to eat, but faded while obesity became a problem and economic circumstances improved.

    In trying to become relevant in a materially flourishing society religion has, I think, taken on a new role whereby it looks beyond traditional allegiances to a wider entity, while retaining the old rules about expecting members to give 100% backing. Norway is notable for being small and having benefited a lot from its oil, which made then a rich country with a generous social safety net. I believe Norway’s particularly rapidly improvement in materiel living conditions explains much of their failure to perceive clearly apparent immigration trends as something worth opposing .

    The Norwegians remain alert to the threat from Russia and made a glossy TV series about an fictional conquest by their neighbour. Meanwhile the Russians are mounting a very real proxy invasion by allowing a collection of migrants to cross Russia to get to its border with Norway. I think the West is beyond the point of no return unless there is a the prospect of a serious danger of an unmistakable type, because societies are still organised on the principal that they must defend themselves. To the extent governments have understanding of their purpose they think it’s making the country stronger (diversity is our strength). The lack of a tangible threat is leading to dissolution.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    "The Norwegians remain alert to the threat from Russia and made a glossy TV series about an fictional conquest by their neighbour. "

    That's a bizarre thing I don't get about the mainstream in present-day Western Europe...one is supposed to be totally ok with nation-destroying mass immigration, but at the same time people get all hysterical about the supposed threat from Russia (which is presented as if it's some real life Mordor). Simply idiotic.
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  • A bunch of scandinaiveans are really stupid!!!

    It’s not ”brainwash” or ”naivety”, is just pure stupidity!!

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  • The northern north like Norway and the like, seem to me to be Christianized by terror. The very same sort of terror at the same time in the 700s the Muslims were using to Islamasize great stretches of the Mediterranean coast. Actually the terror here was Christian terror used by Charlemagne to tame the Saxons and also terrorize their northern cousins.
    In 782 Charlemagne was pissed at the Saxons so he baptized 4,500 men and then cut off their heads at Verden. Sounds positively Islamic.

    Rodney Stark, who has written a boatload of books on the idea that ‘Christianity is good’ (relatively speaking) has another recent book out titled ‘How the West Won.’(2014) Regarding pre-Christian Europe, especially northern Europe, nowadays few people discuss the beheading of the 4500 Saxons in 782 at Verden in the name of the Prince of Peace. In today’s demographics that is 180,000 hairy dudes. That is a lot of men, who, contrary to our time, were very valuable as a resource in those days. A few years ago I had never heard of Verden and usually understood the success of Christianity as due to its greater guilt generating activities creating more cooperation.

    In this view (just a suggestion in the book) Christianity was imposed in the most brutal fashion on the people of the North, it was a religion they did not want, it was not the doctrine that attracted them, it was the simple idea of living another day that forced them to pay lip service to Jesus. It was a forcible conversion of fear for the people of the North, not a conversion of belief. On p. 97 Stark discusses the idea that the Vikings, a hundred years later, targeted British Monasteries and Monks, not necessarily because they were defenseless but “because they were angry about efforts to Christianize the North. Especially provocative would have been the atrocities committed by Charlemagne, who, for example, had about 4,500 unarmed Saxon captives forcibly baptized and then executed. The Vikings seem to have known that Charlemagne had issued an edict imposing the death sentence on all who tried to resist Christianization.”

    Stark cites a 2009 book by Robert Ferguson for this idea about the Vikings attacking religious centers in England as a sort of revenge, ‘The Vikings, a History,’ p 54.

    So you could look at the Christianization of the North as a forced conversion of terror.

    Stark has written other books on the Christianization of the Roman Empire emphasizing Christianity’s emphasis on the the respect for women and the coming together to help the sick and poor, two things Paganism, which was more Darwinist, ignored. But here he acknowledges Christianity was not always the religion of peace.

    At the same time as the Saxon beheadings, Charlemagne, again in the name of the price of peace sent every third Saxon family south to live and be Christianized. Ethnically cleansed and beheaded the Saxons converted. Perhaps they learned their lessons too well, nowadays maybe they love too much.

    Mass beheadings and ethnic cleansing, two ideas you will not hear discussed much from the pulpit on Sunday mornings.

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    • Replies: @Jim
    There were centuries of bloody conflict between Saxons and Franks with religion being a major issue. Periodically the Saxons would revolt against Frankish rule, slaughtering the Christian clergy during these revolts. The Franks would then bloodily reassert Frankish and Christian rule.
    , @singh.jatt
    As a Sikh, I take that personally as many of them were my brothers

    Sons of the Devi Danu & Rishi Kashyap

    We will not stop until all abrahamic civilization is destroyed.
    , @Rich
    Not just the North, Romans were forcibly converted to Christianity, too.
    , @Seraphim
    This is again a case of "historians" with an anti-Christian agenda turning facts on their head.
    The "Saxon Wars" were primarily a continued fight between barbarians. They have not been initiated by "the Christians" in order to convert the freedom loving Saxons, but to curb their plundering expeditions in the lands under Frankish rule. The Christianization of Germany starts well before Charlemagne, through the efforts of Irish, Scottish and English missionaries (St. Columban, St Boniface).
    The immediate cause of the Saxon Wars under Charlemagne was the sack and burning of the church in Deventer by a Saxon expedition. The much-vaunted massacre of Verden (which occurred ten years later had little to do with "imposing Christianity"as such. It was an execution for high treason after repeated rebellions and attacks on the churches. The leader of the rebellions, Widukind submitted eventually and received the baptism.
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  • @Tom_R
    JEWISH CONTROLLED GOVT. USING JEWISH FABRICATED RELIGION TO EXTERMINATE WHITES—TIME TO GET OUT!

    Thanks for the interesting article, Sir, with lots of useful information.

    The anger of white nationals at our govt. crime of importing large number of 3rd world aliens is very understandable. And it is a shame that Christianity is hand in glove in that crime against the white people.

    That is another reason it is time to get out of the African cult of Christianity, a patently Jewish fabrication. It is the kiss of death of the white race. And that is on top of the fact that Jewsus never existed and, if he did, he was a black man:

    See jesusneverexisted.com

    And if he existed (just in case), he was a dark/black man, as shown in a forensic reconstruction of inhabitants of that area from that time:

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/a234/1282186/

    It is disgusting to worship a black man inside the church under the delusion you will be “saved” when blacks are killing whites in the streets outside.

    To all these frustrated teens who are burning churches, there is a better option—hand out flyers to all people pointing out that Jewsus never existed. Or start a Norwegian face book group pointing out that Jewsus never existed with link to jesusneverexisted.com and other sites urging people to get out of the African/Middle Eastern cult of Christianity.

    And start a group or a temple to revive old European ancient religions of our ancestors, such as Odinism, etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathenry_(new_religious_movement)

    A manifestation of insanity. Same old one: ” The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God” (Psalm 14). Insane people think of themselves to be “Rational”. LOL, if it wasn’t sad (and pathetic).

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  • @German_reader
    Don't know if Breivik should be cited...not for moral reasons, but how reliable is his account of his youth really? Have his recollections ever been independently corroborated? He could be making a lot of things up, not necessarily even consciously, just creating a convenient narrative for his self-represenation (a bit like Hitler in "Mein Kampf").
    Apart from that, hard to disagree. Something seems to be fundamentally wrong with many Scandinavians, with Germans as well...hard not to feel profound contempt for them. I just hope Eastern Europeans won't make the same mistakes (Italy might not be that bad either...has too many immigrants, but people there seem less susceptible to guilt-tripping, and the Lega might achieve something).

    Something seems to be fundamentally wrong with many Scandinavians, with Germans as well…

    A direct result of the heresies of Lutheranism. There’s always payback for heresy sooner or later.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    Catholic Germans nowadays are just as messed up and pro-immigration as Protestants so I don't find that convincing.
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  • I’ve always thought the church burnings in Norway had something to do with the relative humourlessness of Scandinavians. People from other countries can be read about Satanism, and be in ‘Satanic’ bands, but retain an ironical distance. In the humourless north, you have to live the life.

    In interviews, Varg Vikernes speaks about learning from Tolkein with absolute sincerity – as if Lord of the Rings were a religious text.

    Scandinavians are not stupid, but there is an incredible naivety about them – wherever they are on the political spectrum.

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    • Replies: @TB
    Varg is actually a really funny guy, who doesn't take himself too seriously, but he is well respected and has honour. He just finished and published a mythical role playing game, called MYFAROG. His music speaks for itself.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR5KiiMzgDw
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  • Is it true that Norway has the largest Sovereign Wealth Fund in the world?

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    • Replies: @Romanian
    Yes, it is, and it is also very well and profitably run, though they seem to be getting ready to draw from it to support the refugees which are stressing the welfare state. Unfortunately, the success of Sovereign Wealth Funds like Norway's and Singapore's Temasek has led to this model being adopted quite widely, especially in shitty countries which are resource rich and also corrupt. A wealth fund like this is the perfect vehicle for disguising the theft of public money or for parking said money outside of the country, instead of spending it inside, on better infrastructure, education or simply handing out a yearly cash prize to the people, like Alaska's fund etc.
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  • Yet, today, the average Norwegian feels more guilt over having white skin and more deference toward dark-skinned people than do citizens of most European countries, including former colonial powers.

    Norway’s claim to shame is about centuries of maltreatment of the Sámi, the indigenous people of the north.

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    • Replies: @EvolutionistX
    Sami are no more indigenous than any other Euro groups. They're all descended from ancient Europeans. Genetically, the Sami look very similar to Russians--and no one says the Russians are "indigenous" but the Norwegians aren't.
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  • @Tom_R
    JEWISH CONTROLLED GOVT. USING JEWISH FABRICATED RELIGION TO EXTERMINATE WHITES—TIME TO GET OUT!

    Thanks for the interesting article, Sir, with lots of useful information.

    The anger of white nationals at our govt. crime of importing large number of 3rd world aliens is very understandable. And it is a shame that Christianity is hand in glove in that crime against the white people.

    That is another reason it is time to get out of the African cult of Christianity, a patently Jewish fabrication. It is the kiss of death of the white race. And that is on top of the fact that Jewsus never existed and, if he did, he was a black man:

    See jesusneverexisted.com

    And if he existed (just in case), he was a dark/black man, as shown in a forensic reconstruction of inhabitants of that area from that time:

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/a234/1282186/

    It is disgusting to worship a black man inside the church under the delusion you will be “saved” when blacks are killing whites in the streets outside.

    To all these frustrated teens who are burning churches, there is a better option—hand out flyers to all people pointing out that Jewsus never existed. Or start a Norwegian face book group pointing out that Jewsus never existed with link to jesusneverexisted.com and other sites urging people to get out of the African/Middle Eastern cult of Christianity.

    And start a group or a temple to revive old European ancient religions of our ancestors, such as Odinism, etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathenry_(new_religious_movement)

    Jesus was black? That reconstruction you link to does not depict a black man.

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    • Replies: @Tom_R
    HERE IS THE RECONSTRUCTED FACE OF JEWS-US: A DARK BROWN OR BLACK MAN

    I am sorry, if the Popular Mechanics link was not working right. Here is another link to see the face of Jewsus:

    From CNN.com : “From science and computers, a new face of Jesus”: By Jeordan Legon
    CNN, Thursday, December 26, 2002 Posted: 9:45 AM EST (1445 GMT)

    "(CNN) -- The Jesus pictured on the cover of this month's Popular Mechanics has a broad peasant's face, DARK OLIVE SKIN, short curly hair and a prominent nose. He would have stood 5-foot-1-inch tall and weighed 110 pounds, if the magazine is to be believed."

    See:
    http://edition.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/12/25/face.jesus/

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.