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    January 9, 2017 marks the day I began blogging a decade ago.   I suppose now's as good a time as any to launch my second panhandling drive. If you like the words that I write, and want me to write more of them, you can personally make that happen:   My first (non-intro) post:...
  • @reiner Tor
    I just listened to another SovMusic recording of Zhukov in 1955, and at least it’s probably the same person. Come to think of it, the French guy probably also got the recording from SovMusic, I don’t think he had any other source. In other words, we just have to believe SovMusic, but I think it’s reliable enough.

    That’s what I thought, too. Sovmusic, doing the jerbs libraries won’t do. : )

    here’s someone in the comment section saying the recording most probably dates from May 7, 1940. http://www.sovmusic.ru/forum/c_read.php?fname=otrivok3

    here’s someone indicating the speech (and presumably the footage, because they talk about video re-compression so it fits on a standard DVD blank) is on the “Great Cyril and Method Encyclopedia 2006″ DVD: http://fenixclub.com/index.php?showtopic=5417

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  • @ussr andy
    the speech (fragment) is:

    Каждый из нас, советских генералов и адмиралов, беззаветно предан народу, делу Ленина-Сталина, великому Сталину. Я думаю, что не вызову ничьих возражений, если скажу от имени всех моих товарищей: высокие звания, присвоенные нам Советским правительством, мы постараемся оправдать!
     
    I don't know if it's genuine (if Zhukov said that) nor if it's actually Zhukov's voice in the song. About The only place it occurs on the internet is here: http://www.sovmusic.ru/text.php?fname=otrivok3
    One would've thought all speeches by people like Zhukov are transcribed and put on the internet. Perhaps someone with access to historic literature can verify.

    the movie is:

    -Хорошо. Очень хорошо. Замечательно. Что такое?
    -Товарищ генерал, немецкая делегация прибыла.
    -Что, уже?
    -Они в прихожей (?) * Товарищ полковник, я не знаю [...] *
    -Пусть господа немного подождут.
    * -В чем дело? -Посмотри там в шкафу! -Есть! *
    -Товарищи, за мной. * inaudible * надевайте. Мои генералы ещё на фронте, вы должны заменить мне мой штаб. Ведите себя так, как будто вы - мой штаб. Всё должно выглядеть совершенно натурально. Выполняйте! Быстро, товарищ, забирайтесь. Давайте же! Давай... Молчок! Просите! Мы знакомы.
    -Мы несколько раз виделись в Кремле, до войны. Я был тогда атташе немецкого дипломатического корпуса.
    -Господин генерал, какие известия?
    -Я сообщаю вам, что Адольф Гитлер и его жена покончили с собой.
    -Нам это известно. * Смирно! Вольно! *
    -Это невероятно. Я уполномочен правительством вступить с вами в переговоры о заключении мира между нашими государствами, понёсшими самые большие потери в этой войне.
    -Господин генерал, вы бы сами заключили бы со мной мир в подобной ситуации?
    -Такова моя задача.
    -Тогда доложите вашему новому правительству следущее: Берлин должен безоговорочно капитулировать. Все капитулирующие должны сложить оружие. Вот тогда и поговорим.
    -На безоговорочную капитуляцию моё правительство не пойдёт.
    -Сложившаяся ситуация не предполагает альтернативы.

     

    I just listened to another SovMusic recording of Zhukov in 1955, and at least it’s probably the same person. Come to think of it, the French guy probably also got the recording from SovMusic, I don’t think he had any other source. In other words, we just have to believe SovMusic, but I think it’s reliable enough.

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    • Replies: @ussr andy
    That's what I thought, too. Sovmusic, doing the jerbs libraries won't do. : )

    here's someone in the comment section saying the recording most probably dates from May 7, 1940. http://www.sovmusic.ru/forum/c_read.php?fname=otrivok3

    here's someone indicating the speech (and presumably the footage, because they talk about video re-compression so it fits on a standard DVD blank) is on the "Great Cyril and Method Encyclopedia 2006" DVD: http://fenixclub.com/index.php?showtopic=5417

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @ussr andy
    the speech (fragment) is:

    Каждый из нас, советских генералов и адмиралов, беззаветно предан народу, делу Ленина-Сталина, великому Сталину. Я думаю, что не вызову ничьих возражений, если скажу от имени всех моих товарищей: высокие звания, присвоенные нам Советским правительством, мы постараемся оправдать!
     
    I don't know if it's genuine (if Zhukov said that) nor if it's actually Zhukov's voice in the song. About The only place it occurs on the internet is here: http://www.sovmusic.ru/text.php?fname=otrivok3
    One would've thought all speeches by people like Zhukov are transcribed and put on the internet. Perhaps someone with access to historic literature can verify.

    the movie is:

    -Хорошо. Очень хорошо. Замечательно. Что такое?
    -Товарищ генерал, немецкая делегация прибыла.
    -Что, уже?
    -Они в прихожей (?) * Товарищ полковник, я не знаю [...] *
    -Пусть господа немного подождут.
    * -В чем дело? -Посмотри там в шкафу! -Есть! *
    -Товарищи, за мной. * inaudible * надевайте. Мои генералы ещё на фронте, вы должны заменить мне мой штаб. Ведите себя так, как будто вы - мой штаб. Всё должно выглядеть совершенно натурально. Выполняйте! Быстро, товарищ, забирайтесь. Давайте же! Давай... Молчок! Просите! Мы знакомы.
    -Мы несколько раз виделись в Кремле, до войны. Я был тогда атташе немецкого дипломатического корпуса.
    -Господин генерал, какие известия?
    -Я сообщаю вам, что Адольф Гитлер и его жена покончили с собой.
    -Нам это известно. * Смирно! Вольно! *
    -Это невероятно. Я уполномочен правительством вступить с вами в переговоры о заключении мира между нашими государствами, понёсшими самые большие потери в этой войне.
    -Господин генерал, вы бы сами заключили бы со мной мир в подобной ситуации?
    -Такова моя задача.
    -Тогда доложите вашему новому правительству следущее: Берлин должен безоговорочно капитулировать. Все капитулирующие должны сложить оружие. Вот тогда и поговорим.
    -На безоговорочную капитуляцию моё правительство не пойдёт.
    -Сложившаяся ситуация не предполагает альтернативы.

     

    Thanks! Unfortunately there’s no “thank you” button (paging Ron Unz, maybe it wouldn’t take a lot of effort to introduce one?), but I really appreciate it. Back then I searched for both these for a long time, but I couldn’t transcribe properly even a small portion and so my effort was fruitless.

    I have no idea if the speech is genuine, but at least two sources seem to confirm that, Sovmusic and the guy who created the martial industrial track. I will listen to a few Zhukov speeches to check if it’s even possible. I guess it doesn’t have an audible foreign accent or else you’d have mentioned it, so at least it’s not someone like Mikoyan or Beria but someone whose mother tongue was Russian.

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    • Agree: ussr andy
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  • @reiner Tor
    OT

    I've long searched for a text of it, but now I just realized here someone might be able to help me. I used to listen to martial industrial music a lot (it's basically similar to a kind of war movie soundtrack, using sound samples from movies, documentaries, original historical recordings, classical music, etc.), and some of them uses Russian original sound samples. I always wanted to have the text written down, but I couldn't find them anywhere, and unlike with for example French, I couldn't find anyone who could do that for me. I don't much listen to it anymore (OK, occasionally I still do), but I still want the text. (I guess I have OCD?)

    So, any native Russian speaker willing to help me, could you please write down the text of the second track of this album? (I think it's a speech by Marshal Zhukov, at least that's what the guy behind March of Heroes emailed me, but he didn't know anything further.) It starts around the 7:50 mark. (The link should take you automatically there.) It's a 3:24 long track, but the sample from the speech repeats several times, I think it's maybe half a minute long. It shouldn't take more than a few minutes to write down for a native speaker.

    (I don't think March of Heroes is that left wing as claimed on Youtube, by the way. Their next album uses a Hitler speech as well. The guy himself insisted to me that he was nonpolitical, and that seemed quite reasonable. Most martial industrial projects are nonpolitical, though some are explicitly right wing.)

    The other thing I wanted to is the Russian text from this scene of the movie Downfall/Der Untergang.

    I need the Russian Cyrillic text (as a positive contribution of communism, I can still read Cyrillic), not some translations. (Weirdly, I have found dozens of translations for the Downfall scene, but no original text. Maybe it could easily be found by searching the Russian web.)

    the speech (fragment) is:

    Каждый из нас, советских генералов и адмиралов, беззаветно предан народу, делу Ленина-Сталина, великому Сталину. Я думаю, что не вызову ничьих возражений, если скажу от имени всех моих товарищей: высокие звания, присвоенные нам Советским правительством, мы постараемся оправдать!

    I don’t know if it’s genuine (if Zhukov said that) nor if it’s actually Zhukov’s voice in the song. About The only place it occurs on the internet is here: http://www.sovmusic.ru/text.php?fname=otrivok3
    One would’ve thought all speeches by people like Zhukov are transcribed and put on the internet. Perhaps someone with access to historic literature can verify.

    the movie is:

    -Хорошо. Очень хорошо. Замечательно. Что такое?
    -Товарищ генерал, немецкая делегация прибыла.
    -Что, уже?
    -Они в прихожей (?) * Товарищ полковник, я не знаю [...] *
    -Пусть господа немного подождут.
    * -В чем дело? -Посмотри там в шкафу! -Есть! *
    -Товарищи, за мной. * inaudible * надевайте. Мои генералы ещё на фронте, вы должны заменить мне мой штаб. Ведите себя так, как будто вы – мой штаб. Всё должно выглядеть совершенно натурально. Выполняйте! Быстро, товарищ, забирайтесь. Давайте же! Давай… Молчок! Просите! Мы знакомы.
    -Мы несколько раз виделись в Кремле, до войны. Я был тогда атташе немецкого дипломатического корпуса.
    -Господин генерал, какие известия?
    -Я сообщаю вам, что Адольф Гитлер и его жена покончили с собой.
    -Нам это известно. * Смирно! Вольно! *
    -Это невероятно. Я уполномочен правительством вступить с вами в переговоры о заключении мира между нашими государствами, понёсшими самые большие потери в этой войне.
    -Господин генерал, вы бы сами заключили бы со мной мир в подобной ситуации?
    -Такова моя задача.
    -Тогда доложите вашему новому правительству следущее: Берлин должен безоговорочно капитулировать. Все капитулирующие должны сложить оружие. Вот тогда и поговорим.
    -На безоговорочную капитуляцию моё правительство не пойдёт.
    -Сложившаяся ситуация не предполагает альтернативы.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Thanks! Unfortunately there’s no “thank you” button (paging Ron Unz, maybe it wouldn’t take a lot of effort to introduce one?), but I really appreciate it. Back then I searched for both these for a long time, but I couldn’t transcribe properly even a small portion and so my effort was fruitless.

    I have no idea if the speech is genuine, but at least two sources seem to confirm that, Sovmusic and the guy who created the martial industrial track. I will listen to a few Zhukov speeches to check if it’s even possible. I guess it doesn’t have an audible foreign accent or else you’d have mentioned it, so at least it’s not someone like Mikoyan or Beria but someone whose mother tongue was Russian.
    , @reiner Tor
    I just listened to another SovMusic recording of Zhukov in 1955, and at least it’s probably the same person. Come to think of it, the French guy probably also got the recording from SovMusic, I don’t think he had any other source. In other words, we just have to believe SovMusic, but I think it’s reliable enough.
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  • @Greasy William

    Russian ethno-nationalists were a sorry lot, and often pretty much treasonous to boot
     
    What do you mean? Your fans want you to elaborate on this. Is America hating Andrei an ethno-nationalist?

    Randal: I was re-reading some of our exchanges and I want to apologize to you for the nasty and immature personal attacks I have sent your way on multiple occasions. I shouldn't have made things personal and I now feel pretty bad about it. In the future I will try to call out your love Iran without resorting to childish insults.

    The operative word here is "try", but, you know, baby steps.

    ” I want to apologize to you for the nasty and immature personal attacks I have sent your way on multiple occasions. I shouldn’t have made things personal and I now feel pretty bad about it.”

    This is encouraging. I thought I had detected a softening in your tone over time. Congratulations from the peanut gallery!

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  • OT

    I’ve long searched for a text of it, but now I just realized here someone might be able to help me. I used to listen to martial industrial music a lot (it’s basically similar to a kind of war movie soundtrack, using sound samples from movies, documentaries, original historical recordings, classical music, etc.), and some of them uses Russian original sound samples. I always wanted to have the text written down, but I couldn’t find them anywhere, and unlike with for example French, I couldn’t find anyone who could do that for me. I don’t much listen to it anymore (OK, occasionally I still do), but I still want the text. (I guess I have OCD?)

    So, any native Russian speaker willing to help me, could you please write down the text of the second track of this album? (I think it’s a speech by Marshal Zhukov, at least that’s what the guy behind March of Heroes emailed me, but he didn’t know anything further.) It starts around the 7:50 mark. (The link should take you automatically there.) It’s a 3:24 long track, but the sample from the speech repeats several times, I think it’s maybe half a minute long. It shouldn’t take more than a few minutes to write down for a native speaker.

    (I don’t think March of Heroes is that left wing as claimed on Youtube, by the way. Their next album uses a Hitler speech as well. The guy himself insisted to me that he was nonpolitical, and that seemed quite reasonable. Most martial industrial projects are nonpolitical, though some are explicitly right wing.)

    The other thing I wanted to is the Russian text from this scene of the movie Downfall/Der Untergang.

    I need the Russian Cyrillic text (as a positive contribution of communism, I can still read Cyrillic), not some translations. (Weirdly, I have found dozens of translations for the Downfall scene, but no original text. Maybe it could easily be found by searching the Russian web.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @ussr andy
    the speech (fragment) is:

    Каждый из нас, советских генералов и адмиралов, беззаветно предан народу, делу Ленина-Сталина, великому Сталину. Я думаю, что не вызову ничьих возражений, если скажу от имени всех моих товарищей: высокие звания, присвоенные нам Советским правительством, мы постараемся оправдать!
     
    I don't know if it's genuine (if Zhukov said that) nor if it's actually Zhukov's voice in the song. About The only place it occurs on the internet is here: http://www.sovmusic.ru/text.php?fname=otrivok3
    One would've thought all speeches by people like Zhukov are transcribed and put on the internet. Perhaps someone with access to historic literature can verify.

    the movie is:

    -Хорошо. Очень хорошо. Замечательно. Что такое?
    -Товарищ генерал, немецкая делегация прибыла.
    -Что, уже?
    -Они в прихожей (?) * Товарищ полковник, я не знаю [...] *
    -Пусть господа немного подождут.
    * -В чем дело? -Посмотри там в шкафу! -Есть! *
    -Товарищи, за мной. * inaudible * надевайте. Мои генералы ещё на фронте, вы должны заменить мне мой штаб. Ведите себя так, как будто вы - мой штаб. Всё должно выглядеть совершенно натурально. Выполняйте! Быстро, товарищ, забирайтесь. Давайте же! Давай... Молчок! Просите! Мы знакомы.
    -Мы несколько раз виделись в Кремле, до войны. Я был тогда атташе немецкого дипломатического корпуса.
    -Господин генерал, какие известия?
    -Я сообщаю вам, что Адольф Гитлер и его жена покончили с собой.
    -Нам это известно. * Смирно! Вольно! *
    -Это невероятно. Я уполномочен правительством вступить с вами в переговоры о заключении мира между нашими государствами, понёсшими самые большие потери в этой войне.
    -Господин генерал, вы бы сами заключили бы со мной мир в подобной ситуации?
    -Такова моя задача.
    -Тогда доложите вашему новому правительству следущее: Берлин должен безоговорочно капитулировать. Все капитулирующие должны сложить оружие. Вот тогда и поговорим.
    -На безоговорочную капитуляцию моё правительство не пойдёт.
    -Сложившаяся ситуация не предполагает альтернативы.

     

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  • @reiner Tor

    Hardly anyone I know buys or reads ‘books’
     
    No surprises here.

    I had a huge argument with an IT friend who should know better about this, but in the end its pointless arguing with people who don’t read or care about real culture. It’s a sad world when the only universal cultural references are trashy American dramas and 3rd-rate video games.
    Even if you look at British TV from 30 years ago it was assumed the average person had some familiarity with history and literature.

    The main intellectual was the overly esoteric (and today increasingly unhinged) Konstantin Krylov and the obscurantist Galkovsky, whose bizarre historical conspiracy theories (e.g. that the USSR was a colony of London) enjoyed a central position due to the lack of intelligence in that culture.

    Incidentally, what’s your beef with Nikolai Starikov? He might be a political prostitute, but in the end so is Zhirinovsky, and they’re the only moderately sane Russians in their field with any mass-following. I recall he wrote sensibly enough on Ukraine and the migrant-crisis.

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  • Could the increasing inanity/censorship of social media drive resurgence of a blogging?

    It is not hard to imagine that those that are censoring Youtube, Facebook, Twitter or Google searches are not going to stop there. Their final goal is to censor everything, I already see the day where sites like this will be shut down, and it is not just like how they censor things for Germany or China locally, in the end I see a global censoring central authority that will increasingly shut down sites like they have already done with the Dailystormer.

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  • Anatoly: what do Russian liberals think of Trump? Are they as obsessed with him as western Euro liberals are?

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    That Britain was first to the Industrial Revolution - a development substantially enabled by its very early entry into mass literacy, which you could look at as intelligence expansion - counted for far more than who controlled Wallachia or Wallonia at any particular point in time.

    Anyhow, the entire point is moot, since Putin's clique lost it anyway.

    Who controls Wallonia is an important question for Wallonia and its neighbors. And twice in the 20th century, in 1914 and 1940, this question was of a paramount importance to the whole world. Ukrainian question exists at least since the 17th century and will continue to exist for a long time yet. And there is a fair chance that we may yet get a global conflagration out of it.

    Industrial Revolution is fine but today’s technohype has nothing to do with it. I too used to be a techno optimist when I was younger but as time went by I started noticing that most of the wild promises were falling by wayside. This will happen to you too. In 25 years you’ll be like, where is muh IQ augmentation? Nowhere! It will either join AI, nuclear fusion, and cure for cancer as a things that are 25 years in the future and forever will be. Or else it will be totally forgotten amid the new hype of the time.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    That Britain was first to the Industrial Revolution - a development substantially enabled by its very early entry into mass literacy, which you could look at as intelligence expansion - counted for far more than who controlled Wallachia or Wallonia at any particular point in time.

    Anyhow, the entire point is moot, since Putin's clique lost it anyway.

    That Britain was first to the Industrial Revolution – a development substantially enabled by its very early entry into mass literacy, which you could look at as intelligence expansion – counted for far more than who controlled Wallachia or Wallonia at any particular point in time.

    Wallonia?
    That was one of the first industrialized regions of Europe.
    Important enough for the British to keep it out of the control of other major powers.
    France would have remained a greater power if they had retained it.

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  • @Thorfinnsson

    IQ augmentation will join personal rocketship cars, nuclear-powered household appliances
     
    I am a CRISPR skeptic, but it doesn't seem unreasonable that genetic engineering of humans is feasible.

    Rocket-powered cars is a joke from cartoons as far as I know. The actual prediction was personal flying cars. General aviation has largely been destroyed by lawyers, so anything that flies is now too expensive.

    Nuclear powered vacuum cleaners is a bit much, but it would be perfectly feasible to power trucks or aircraft with nuclear reactors. This prospect has been destroyed by hysterical, irrational fear of atomic energy. Nuclear power is a great argument against democracy.

    Thanks, much appreciated.

    You did exert a huge influence on me, and you might be gratified to know on at least one other person from there, who I believe you know as well.

    Looking forwards to meeting up!

    This prospect has been destroyed by hysterical, irrational fear of atomic energy. Nuclear power is a great argument against democracy.

    Not to mention killing off our best realistic means of blasting large payloads into orbit, which is really rather indispensable if you’re serious about things like building a Mars base.

    Fortunately Russia is slightly less demented in this department.

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  • Anatoly Karlin
    I’ve been reading you from the beginning, and I believe that you know who I am. I hope that I influenced you, and regardless of whether or not that is true I am proud and impressed by your progress.

    Your writing and content are excellent.

    Even back when you were agnostic about HBD, your content was excellent and displayed many highly innovative ideas.

    Your biggest area of wrongism is now totally forgotten–which was taking peak oil seriously as a problem. Not blaming you either, as I read The Oil Drum as well and thought it was a cause for real concern.

    I hope I get the opportunity to meet you when I visit Moscow, which will perhaps be next year.

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  • @inertial

    In the long-term, the political hysterias of today (Ukraine, Russiagate, Trump, etc.) will fade into irrelevance, but the future dynamics of genetic editing + IQ augmentation will pretty much determine who gets to rule the 21st century
     
    The Ukraine issue will remain relevant decades and centuries after IQ augmentation will join personal rocketship cars, nuclear-powered household appliances, and other hilariously optimistic tech predictions of the past.

    http://s3.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/pictofact/3/0/3/237303_v1.jpg

    IQ augmentation will join personal rocketship cars, nuclear-powered household appliances

    I am a CRISPR skeptic, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable that genetic engineering of humans is feasible.

    Rocket-powered cars is a joke from cartoons as far as I know. The actual prediction was personal flying cars. General aviation has largely been destroyed by lawyers, so anything that flies is now too expensive.

    Nuclear powered vacuum cleaners is a bit much, but it would be perfectly feasible to power trucks or aircraft with nuclear reactors. This prospect has been destroyed by hysterical, irrational fear of atomic energy. Nuclear power is a great argument against democracy.

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    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Thanks, much appreciated.

    You did exert a huge influence on me, and you might be gratified to know on at least one other person from there, who I believe you know as well.

    Looking forwards to meeting up!

    This prospect has been destroyed by hysterical, irrational fear of atomic energy. Nuclear power is a great argument against democracy.
     
    Not to mention killing off our best realistic means of blasting large payloads into orbit, which is really rather indispensable if you're serious about things like building a Mars base.

    Fortunately Russia is slightly less demented in this department.
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  • Please keep doing your essential work on Russia. Irreplaceable.

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  • @Brabantian
    Some sub-themes here ... AK tho relatively young is yet showing himself as an 'older generation' guy versus the Generation Z crowd, who are riffing on memes and 4chan and quickly cycling thru a rapdily-shifting profile of social media platforms and tools

    For some time now, I've felt that books are a bit of an old-fogey item, a way to bury any truth in them ... Saw statistics where the average 'book' today sells something like 142 copies ... hundreds of thousands of nearly-zero-sales books out there, given any idiot can 'publish' now, by posting a file to amazon which will be printed by a giant machine into a book if someone 'orders' it ... Hardly anyone I know buys or reads 'books'



    Don't quite get the YouTube craze for political discourse content ... tho some such items indeed are clever and funny, especially when using visuals or sounds that require or leverage the video platform

    But plain talking heads, ugh ... A whole lot of YouTubing is really tedious just because of the format ... taking 5 minutes to make a minor point that would just be a few seconds of reading text

    Because of the slowness and time-consumption, video can rather be a burial of the truth, too, like a 'book' ... I have wondered if that is why the Powers That Be allow and sponsor some expression on the CIA Google Tube, audience is intrinsically restricted due to time factor, truth is buried despite superficially being available

    A rarely-done but helpful practice is dual-posting text along with video, as done by that eccentric Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity, USA 'street evangelist', 'Brother' Nathaniel Kapner

    Hardly anyone I know buys or reads ‘books’

    No surprises here.

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    • Replies: @Yevardian
    I had a huge argument with an IT friend who should know better about this, but in the end its pointless arguing with people who don't read or care about real culture. It's a sad world when the only universal cultural references are trashy American dramas and 3rd-rate video games.
    Even if you look at British TV from 30 years ago it was assumed the average person had some familiarity with history and literature.

    The main intellectual was the overly esoteric (and today increasingly unhinged) Konstantin Krylov and the obscurantist Galkovsky, whose bizarre historical conspiracy theories (e.g. that the USSR was a colony of London) enjoyed a central position due to the lack of intelligence in that culture.
     
    Incidentally, what's your beef with Nikolai Starikov? He might be a political prostitute, but in the end so is Zhirinovsky, and they're the only moderately sane Russians in their field with any mass-following. I recall he wrote sensibly enough on Ukraine and the migrant-crisis.
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  • Some sub-themes here … AK tho relatively young is yet showing himself as an ‘older generation’ guy versus the Generation Z crowd, who are riffing on memes and 4chan and quickly cycling thru a rapdily-shifting profile of social media platforms and tools

    For some time now, I’ve felt that books are a bit of an old-fogey item, a way to bury any truth in them … Saw statistics where the average ‘book’ today sells something like 142 copies … hundreds of thousands of nearly-zero-sales books out there, given any idiot can ‘publish’ now, by posting a file to amazon which will be printed by a giant machine into a book if someone ‘orders’ it … Hardly anyone I know buys or reads ‘books’

    [MORE]

    Don’t quite get the YouTube craze for political discourse content … tho some such items indeed are clever and funny, especially when using visuals or sounds that require or leverage the video platform

    But plain talking heads, ugh … A whole lot of YouTubing is really tedious just because of the format … taking 5 minutes to make a minor point that would just be a few seconds of reading text

    Because of the slowness and time-consumption, video can rather be a burial of the truth, too, like a ‘book’ … I have wondered if that is why the Powers That Be allow and sponsor some expression on the CIA Google Tube, audience is intrinsically restricted due to time factor, truth is buried despite superficially being available

    A rarely-done but helpful practice is dual-posting text along with video, as done by that eccentric Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity, USA ‘street evangelist’, ‘Brother’ Nathaniel Kapner

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    Hardly anyone I know buys or reads ‘books’
     
    No surprises here.
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  • @inertial

    In the long-term, the political hysterias of today (Ukraine, Russiagate, Trump, etc.) will fade into irrelevance, but the future dynamics of genetic editing + IQ augmentation will pretty much determine who gets to rule the 21st century
     
    The Ukraine issue will remain relevant decades and centuries after IQ augmentation will join personal rocketship cars, nuclear-powered household appliances, and other hilariously optimistic tech predictions of the past.

    http://s3.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/pictofact/3/0/3/237303_v1.jpg

    That Britain was first to the Industrial Revolution – a development substantially enabled by its very early entry into mass literacy, which you could look at as intelligence expansion – counted for far more than who controlled Wallachia or Wallonia at any particular point in time.

    Anyhow, the entire point is moot, since Putin’s clique lost it anyway.

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    • Replies: @Mitleser

    That Britain was first to the Industrial Revolution – a development substantially enabled by its very early entry into mass literacy, which you could look at as intelligence expansion – counted for far more than who controlled Wallachia or Wallonia at any particular point in time.
     
    Wallonia?
    That was one of the first industrialized regions of Europe.
    Important enough for the British to keep it out of the control of other major powers.
    France would have remained a greater power if they had retained it.
    , @inertial
    Who controls Wallonia is an important question for Wallonia and its neighbors. And twice in the 20th century, in 1914 and 1940, this question was of a paramount importance to the whole world. Ukrainian question exists at least since the 17th century and will continue to exist for a long time yet. And there is a fair chance that we may yet get a global conflagration out of it.

    Industrial Revolution is fine but today's technohype has nothing to do with it. I too used to be a techno optimist when I was younger but as time went by I started noticing that most of the wild promises were falling by wayside. This will happen to you too. In 25 years you'll be like, where is muh IQ augmentation? Nowhere! It will either join AI, nuclear fusion, and cure for cancer as a things that are 25 years in the future and forever will be. Or else it will be totally forgotten amid the new hype of the time.
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  • You mean in Europe and the US? I don’t get the impression much has changed in Russia since 2011 in this regard, or has it?

    Have things deteriorated in the Caucasus since then, or you just weren’t aware of how bad mass stan-immigration to Russia was then?

    Obviously things have deteriorated most visible in the West, especially in Western Europe, while in Russia things have even improved in some respects (for instance, there was an artificial drop in Gastarbeiters during the post-2014 recession, though this is going to reverse in the next few years as the economy booms again).

    Still, I have a friend here who made the observation that for all the current differences in perception – Merkel as a globalist stooge, Putin as an icon of the Alt Right – historians in fifty years might regard both of them in similar terms: As politicians who helped enable the Islamization of their respective countries. I am not sure that he is entirely wrong.

    However, another major change is the exponential rise in prosecutions under 282, about which I have blogged a great deal. (Note that outright Neo-Nazis with swastika flags were free to (and did) march under Putin’s reign up until the early 2010s or so, so explaining this as a measure to protect the feelings of WW2 veterans – as the kremlins often do – is cynical hogwash). Those observations are increasingly risky to make from a legal viewpoint, so society is much worse positioned to respond to the next wave of mass immigration.

    What do you mean? Your fans want you to elaborate on this.

    I remember that a number of Russian ethno-nationalists fought for the Ukrainian side during the war.

    Russian nationalism half a decade ago was represented by people like Belov/Potkin, Maltsev, Demyushkin, etc. with their completely toxic mix of advocating Russia’s disintegration (that is, things like independent Ingria, not just throwing out DICh), fullbore Putin Derangement Syndrome, Naziphilia, Westophilia (!), and alliances of convenience with Jewish Echo of Moscow liberals (!!!). Moreover, unlike the liberals, who at least were (and are) highly intelligent and produce lots of interesting content, their culture was dumb as a pile of rocks. The main intellectual was the overly esoteric (and today increasingly unhinged) Konstantin Krylov and the obscurantist Galkovsky, whose bizarre historical conspiracy theories (e.g. that the USSR was a colony of London) enjoyed a central position due to the lack of intelligence in that culture.

    One of the good things about the Ukrainian conflict is that it smoked those people (Belov/Maltsev/Demyushkin) out for good – and conveniently also showed that they were a small minority within the nationalist sphere. The old intellectual crazies have also been sidelined. Now Russian nationalism is associated more with Donbass veterans on the streets, and intellectuals like the Sputnik and Pogrom circle and Egor Kholmogorov in the “coffee salons.” This is a great change, and is making nationalism much more palatable for normies.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    Sure, I was basically a vanilla Russian civic nationalist back then.

    Then again, many things were very different back then, anyway. Russian ethno-nationalists were a sorry lot, and often pretty much treasonous to boot. And ethnic politics hadn't yet devolved to the hellish state they are at today.

    Even so, I was an immigration skeptic from the very beginning (2008): "As such, in my opinion the Japanese method of substituting capital for labor on the factory floor (it has more than a third of the world’s stock of industrial robots) is generally smarter than importing a diverse mob of car-burners (although perhaps I have an insufficient appreciation of the spiritual benefits of multiculturalism)."

    Russian ethno-nationalists were a sorry lot, and often pretty much treasonous to boot.

    Were? Not anymore?
    Didn’t you call Navalny an Ukrainian nationalist not long ago?
    I remember that a number of Russian ethno-nationalists fought for the Ukrainian side during the war.

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  • In the long-term, the political hysterias of today (Ukraine, Russiagate, Trump, etc.) will fade into irrelevance, but the future dynamics of genetic editing + IQ augmentation will pretty much determine who gets to rule the 21st century

    The Ukraine issue will remain relevant decades and centuries after IQ augmentation will join personal rocketship cars, nuclear-powered household appliances, and other hilariously optimistic tech predictions of the past.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    That Britain was first to the Industrial Revolution - a development substantially enabled by its very early entry into mass literacy, which you could look at as intelligence expansion - counted for far more than who controlled Wallachia or Wallonia at any particular point in time.

    Anyhow, the entire point is moot, since Putin's clique lost it anyway.
    , @Thorfinnsson

    IQ augmentation will join personal rocketship cars, nuclear-powered household appliances
     
    I am a CRISPR skeptic, but it doesn't seem unreasonable that genetic engineering of humans is feasible.

    Rocket-powered cars is a joke from cartoons as far as I know. The actual prediction was personal flying cars. General aviation has largely been destroyed by lawyers, so anything that flies is now too expensive.

    Nuclear powered vacuum cleaners is a bit much, but it would be perfectly feasible to power trucks or aircraft with nuclear reactors. This prospect has been destroyed by hysterical, irrational fear of atomic energy. Nuclear power is a great argument against democracy.

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  • @Yevardian
    Ironically, your initially agnostic/neutral opinion on HBD, combined with the quality of your blog, is what convinced me to seriously consider it in the first place. I only found your blog by complete accident in 2013 whilst looking for Israel Shamir articles on Anatoly Chubais. Incidentally I'd never had any interest in the manosphere before finding it via your blog either.

    I have to say I think much of your best content was written on Sublime Oblivion, you haven't done many "big-picture" analyses or more philosophical articles in a while.
    A book is long overdue. If a meme-writer like The Saker can sell a book of randomly selected articles you certainly can.

    German-Reader: You mean in Europe and the US? I don’t get the impression much has changed in Russia since 2011 in this regard, or has it?

    Yeah I wondered about that line too. Have things deteriorated in the Caucasus since then, or you just weren't aware of how bad mass stan-immigration to Russia was then?

    The funny thing is I also found Unz.com through Israel Shamir. It was back when MSM was running articles about how Julian Assange was crazy because he read Israel Shamir’s writings. Up until August 2016 I had no idea this site even existed until I googled Israel Shamir.

    Since then it’s been a real treat to read all of the excellent bloggers featured here. Cheers to Anatoly for the great blog and to Ron Unz for creating this excellent site!

    P.S. I beleive this was the article that started it all:

    https://forward.com/news/national/347546/why-does-wikileaks-have-a-reputation-for-anti-semitism/

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    Sure, I was basically a vanilla Russian civic nationalist back then.

    Then again, many things were very different back then, anyway. Russian ethno-nationalists were a sorry lot, and often pretty much treasonous to boot. And ethnic politics hadn't yet devolved to the hellish state they are at today.

    Even so, I was an immigration skeptic from the very beginning (2008): "As such, in my opinion the Japanese method of substituting capital for labor on the factory floor (it has more than a third of the world’s stock of industrial robots) is generally smarter than importing a diverse mob of car-burners (although perhaps I have an insufficient appreciation of the spiritual benefits of multiculturalism)."

    Ironically, your initially agnostic/neutral opinion on HBD, combined with the quality of your blog, is what convinced me to seriously consider it in the first place. I only found your blog by complete accident in 2013 whilst looking for Israel Shamir articles on Anatoly Chubais. Incidentally I’d never had any interest in the manosphere before finding it via your blog either.

    I have to say I think much of your best content was written on Sublime Oblivion, you haven’t done many “big-picture” analyses or more philosophical articles in a while.
    A book is long overdue. If a meme-writer like The Saker can sell a book of randomly selected articles you certainly can.

    German-Reader: You mean in Europe and the US? I don’t get the impression much has changed in Russia since 2011 in this regard, or has it?

    Yeah I wondered about that line too. Have things deteriorated in the Caucasus since then, or you just weren’t aware of how bad mass stan-immigration to Russia was then?

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    • Replies: @Archimedes
    The funny thing is I also found Unz.com through Israel Shamir. It was back when MSM was running articles about how Julian Assange was crazy because he read Israel Shamir's writings. Up until August 2016 I had no idea this site even existed until I googled Israel Shamir.

    Since then it's been a real treat to read all of the excellent bloggers featured here. Cheers to Anatoly for the great blog and to Ron Unz for creating this excellent site!

    P.S. I beleive this was the article that started it all:

    https://forward.com/news/national/347546/why-does-wikileaks-have-a-reputation-for-anti-semitism/

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  • : How long do you think it would take for us to figure out how to do CRISPR without provoking a negative immune reaction from many people’s bodies?

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  • Russian ethno-nationalists were a sorry lot, and often pretty much treasonous to boot

    What do you mean? Your fans want you to elaborate on this. Is America hating Andrei an ethno-nationalist?

    Randal: I was re-reading some of our exchanges and I want to apologize to you for the nasty and immature personal attacks I have sent your way on multiple occasions. I shouldn’t have made things personal and I now feel pretty bad about it. In the future I will try to call out your love Iran without resorting to childish insults.

    The operative word here is “try”, but, you know, baby steps.

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    • Replies: @Jeff Albertson
    " I want to apologize to you for the nasty and immature personal attacks I have sent your way on multiple occasions. I shouldn’t have made things personal and I now feel pretty bad about it."

    This is encouraging. I thought I had detected a softening in your tone over time. Congratulations from the peanut gallery!
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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    Sure, I was basically a vanilla Russian civic nationalist back then.

    Then again, many things were very different back then, anyway. Russian ethno-nationalists were a sorry lot, and often pretty much treasonous to boot. And ethnic politics hadn't yet devolved to the hellish state they are at today.

    Even so, I was an immigration skeptic from the very beginning (2008): "As such, in my opinion the Japanese method of substituting capital for labor on the factory floor (it has more than a third of the world’s stock of industrial robots) is generally smarter than importing a diverse mob of car-burners (although perhaps I have an insufficient appreciation of the spiritual benefits of multiculturalism)."

    And ethnic politics hadn’t yet devolved to the hellish state they are at today.

    You mean in Europe and the US? I don’t get the impression much has changed in Russia since 2011 in this regard, or has it?

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  • @Jon0815

    The Russia commentary now is dominated by folks who make La Russophobe (remember it?) look like the apex of nuance and reason.
     
    Recently I happened to read an old interview you did with La Russophobe, and discovered that your views have evolved somewhat since 2011... it was strange to see you declaring that you couldn't support Navalny until he firmly disavowed ethnic Russian chauvinism, and praising Putin for stressing the multiethnic nature of the Russian Federation!

    Sure, I was basically a vanilla Russian civic nationalist back then.

    Then again, many things were very different back then, anyway. Russian ethno-nationalists were a sorry lot, and often pretty much treasonous to boot. And ethnic politics hadn’t yet devolved to the hellish state they are at today.

    Even so, I was an immigration skeptic from the very beginning (2008): “As such, in my opinion the Japanese method of substituting capital for labor on the factory floor (it has more than a third of the world’s stock of industrial robots) is generally smarter than importing a diverse mob of car-burners (although perhaps I have an insufficient appreciation of the spiritual benefits of multiculturalism).

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    And ethnic politics hadn’t yet devolved to the hellish state they are at today.
     
    You mean in Europe and the US? I don't get the impression much has changed in Russia since 2011 in this regard, or has it?
    , @Yevardian
    Ironically, your initially agnostic/neutral opinion on HBD, combined with the quality of your blog, is what convinced me to seriously consider it in the first place. I only found your blog by complete accident in 2013 whilst looking for Israel Shamir articles on Anatoly Chubais. Incidentally I'd never had any interest in the manosphere before finding it via your blog either.

    I have to say I think much of your best content was written on Sublime Oblivion, you haven't done many "big-picture" analyses or more philosophical articles in a while.
    A book is long overdue. If a meme-writer like The Saker can sell a book of randomly selected articles you certainly can.

    German-Reader: You mean in Europe and the US? I don’t get the impression much has changed in Russia since 2011 in this regard, or has it?

    Yeah I wondered about that line too. Have things deteriorated in the Caucasus since then, or you just weren't aware of how bad mass stan-immigration to Russia was then?

    , @Mitleser

    Russian ethno-nationalists were a sorry lot, and often pretty much treasonous to boot.
     
    Were? Not anymore?
    Didn't you call Navalny an Ukrainian nationalist not long ago?
    I remember that a number of Russian ethno-nationalists fought for the Ukrainian side during the war.
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  • @Beavis and Butthead
    Yo yo yo, what do you think about the beyond (2017). Since you're a transhumanabedinisist and such. Watching right now.

    On another note, what are your thoughts, and the general receptions of Rezun’s writings on soviet military history and GRU?

    From personal experience, and sailer’s lame articles on poland, I guess it takes a native to understand even the the most superficial truths about the internal politics of the countries of foreign soviet bloc.

    Not seen it & probably not going to; no serious historian takes Rezun seriously (my old comment on him).

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  • The Russia commentary now is dominated by folks who make La Russophobe (remember it?) look like the apex of nuance and reason.

    Recently I happened to read an old interview you did with La Russophobe, and discovered that your views have evolved somewhat since 2011… it was strange to see you declaring that you couldn’t support Navalny until he firmly disavowed ethnic Russian chauvinism, and praising Putin for stressing the multiethnic nature of the Russian Federation!

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Sure, I was basically a vanilla Russian civic nationalist back then.

    Then again, many things were very different back then, anyway. Russian ethno-nationalists were a sorry lot, and often pretty much treasonous to boot. And ethnic politics hadn't yet devolved to the hellish state they are at today.

    Even so, I was an immigration skeptic from the very beginning (2008): "As such, in my opinion the Japanese method of substituting capital for labor on the factory floor (it has more than a third of the world’s stock of industrial robots) is generally smarter than importing a diverse mob of car-burners (although perhaps I have an insufficient appreciation of the spiritual benefits of multiculturalism)."
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Yo yo yo, what do you think about the beyond (2017). Since you’re a transhumanabedinisist and such. Watching right now.

    On another note, what are your thoughts, and the general receptions of Rezun’s writings on soviet military history and GRU?

    From personal experience, and sailer’s lame articles on poland, I guess it takes a native to understand even the the most superficial truths about the internal politics of the countries of foreign soviet bloc.

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Not seen it & probably not going to; no serious historian takes Rezun seriously (my old comment on him).
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  • My earlier entry (Clannishness – the Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain) established that there are deep distinctions between Northwestern European peoples and most of the rest of the world, and that these differences have a huge impact on the world, including on levels of human development, the strength of democracy and democratic institutions, scientific...
  • […] Clannishness – the Series: How It Happened Clannishness – the Series: A Finer-Grained Look at How It Happened — […]

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  • There are some theories floating around on the internets as to whether I am a bagel or even "a Turk of sorts and probably a muzzie actually." Now that I have finally become who I am, it is time to reveal who I am. Actually I was always an open book on this matter, but...
  • A new media craze. As I said all those percentages are money-making para- or pseudo-scientific fraud schemes, waste of your money. You cannot be “X% of somebody” unless you know it for sure for yourself (multiple-of-2 fractions like “3/4 borscht, 1/4 kebab” is OK by me, but you knew it long before any tests).

    http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=24315

    http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=24322

    http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=24326

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    I said primarily due to superior average IQ.

    There also seems to be some kind of "Mediterranean factor" at play - apart from Jews, Greek Americans and Christian Arab Americans also have far more in the Forbes 400 than their demographics + IQ would indicate.

    A few years ago I speculated that is because those areas have had a couple millennias' worth more experience of urban life than Germanics, and are more adept at wheeling-dealing their way into riches.

    I have an idea that Jewish success in all spheres including business comes down to three big factors: high intelligence, mania for achievement, and hyper-curiosity.

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  • @Zenarchy
    Thanks man, excellent reply.

    Good for you to be cool and not anti-Serb, being a Croat from Hercegovina. But you still didn't give me your personal opinion regarding physical characteristics.

    I'd like to see skull measurements, but if you say these features come from native Balkan people (I2a??), I have to believe you for now as evidence points to your claims being true.
    Interestingly, almost all of the Serbs I know that have that appearance, are very bellicose, even more than other Balkan peoples, famous for not being fans of non-violence.

    “Good for you to be cool and not anti-Serb, being a Croat from Hercegovina. But you still didn’t give me your personal opinion regarding physical characteristics.”

    There’s no point in being reflexively anti-Serb as the Serbian problem in Croatia no longer exists, except for a couple of shitheads on both sides seeking to keep themselves employed/in the public spotlight.

    As for physical characteristics, the Balkans have seen so many people pass through here and settle here, so certain odd appearances do pop up. Recall also that significant waves of assimilation have happened here over and over and over again. The Principality of Serbia (and later Kingdom) during the mid-19th century passed a law declaring that anyone who lived in Serbia for at least 10 years was automatically declared a Serb and would have to adopt a Serbian name and surname. This had the effect of rapidly assimilating many minorities of the time, particularly Cincars/Aroumanians, Greeks, Armenians, Vlachs, Bulgars, and yes, gypsies. Any settlement from Asia Minor/Anatolia in that smaller part of Serbia was mainly up in Belgrade and consisted of Greek and Armenian merchants and traders.

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  • @Mark Eugenikos
    Thanks for the detailed info. Now I feel like I want to send my sample to 23andme and figure out at least part of the family history, beyond about 250 years for which we have the records.

    Here is my result -

    I tested around two years ago and will be doing a Y-67 at FTNDA soon to get a deeper read on my paternal line, which is J-M241 (aka J2B2*) which is Balkan as fuck and has its highest frequencies in Aroumanian (Cincar) people of Southern Albania and the Greek Pindus Mountains that form the border between Epirus and Thessaly, and among Albanians, particularly the Hoti Tribe of Montenegro along their border with Albania.

    A friend of mine from my county in Hercegovina and who is from the same parish as I am (7 villages away), tested J-M241 as well and he did his Y-67. He and I aren’t related (unless we go back a good distance, is my gut feeling) and this clade isn’t all that common. What he found is that his most recent common ancestor with any Albanians who have this clade is well over 2,000 years old, and the closest Serb to him genetically (who coincidentally is from Glamoc, right next door to us, just on the other side of the mountain) shares a most common recent ancestor dating back 3,900 years.

    I am working under the assumption that he and I will have a much, much closer date for the simple reason that is paternal line comes from further south in Hercegovina, just like my paternal line (who made a couple of stops in Dalmatia along the way).

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  • @Zenarchy
    Hi, Mark.

    I'm guessing about 10 percent Serbs I know personally here in Slovenia look a bit different than other Southern Slavs I know (which are many), but I can't post any of their photos for obvious reasons. I only know about 10 famous Serbs, though, and the closest to what I had in mind would likely be the rapper from post. 39 in this thread...
    Different, but still somehow more Serbian than say Croatian would be Vlade Divac - photo in the post No. 10 in this thread.

    As I said, those could simply be elements of Balkan genetics that are very rare and didn't spread towards NW parts of the Balkan... And quite possibly, these 2 might not look foreign in Macedonia or Bulgaria as those are the Balkan nationalities I know the least (numerically at least).

    p.s. We sometimes joke about Balkan jaws here in Slovenia (well, not me really). Compared to Slovenes or Poles, Czechs etc, it does seem there's some stronger chewing power there (Is sheep meat difficult to chew? :)

    Thanks for the examples.

    To me, Divac’s face looks more Gypsy than anything else, although his size would be extremely unusual for a Gypsy, as they tend to be on a small side. I agree that his phenotype is unusual for Serbs.

    Regarding the rapper, I can see why he looks Central Asian to you. Disregarding the beard, his combination of a long nose and small, shallow-set eyes makes him look Central Asian. Again, not a typical Serbian phenotype, in my experience.

    From my observations of the Serbs and other West Balkan peoples, it’s relatively common to find people with big brows and deep-set eyes, which make some look more Neanderthal. That’s the one thing that, to my eyes, makes Serbs visibly different from Russians. Russians often have shallow eye sockets, to the point that some look like blond Chinese.

    Also comparing Southern Slavs (Balkans) to the Northern Slavs (Czechs, Poles, etc.), to me the southerners’ faces seem more angular, while the northerners’ look softer and more rounded. Which would work in favor of northern women and of southern men. Just my opinion, though.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    I said primarily due to superior average IQ.

    There also seems to be some kind of "Mediterranean factor" at play - apart from Jews, Greek Americans and Christian Arab Americans also have far more in the Forbes 400 than their demographics + IQ would indicate.

    A few years ago I speculated that is because those areas have had a couple millennias' worth more experience of urban life than Germanics, and are more adept at wheeling-dealing their way into riches.

    Clannish people do well in business. In Europe, the South has remained more clannish, more similar to Semites in some ways. That’s probably the explanation for Greeks doing well.
    Even in India, the most clannish trader castes are much richer than the national average. Although, every population with a long history of trading does usually well financially.

    Of course, if you add Ashkenazi IQ and nepotism in the mix, it’s a win-win combination. Slavs or Germans don’t capitalize on their IQs too well (especially Slavs historically).

    The opposite extreme from Jews would be Albanians and Chechens – strong clannishness, but combined with low IQs and sheep tending instead of trade – resulting in blood feuds and poverty.

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  • @Zenarchy
    Similar combinations like yours are found among Balkan Slavs, though only Slovenes and NW Croats are predominantly R1A Slavs. The non-Slavic part in Balkan Slavs is at least partially a result of Middle-Eastern migrations (and Turkish rape, cough*Serbs*cough: http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/2nd+Annual+Celebrity+Poker+Challenge+Benefiting+9RDlYOAnwOnl.jpg).

    We should, however, not forget that we all probably have some illegitimate ancestry as well. In my case, my father is so dark, that with his pure Slavic ancestry, I'm willing to bet the nearby Roma settlement had something to do with it... (Before you scoff, Roma's ancestors were among the most developed in the world some 5.000 years ago when Slavs' achievements consisted of milking cows and burying chariots.)

    When judging the exoticism of some individual from some other ethnic group, it’s helpful to ask somebody from said ethnic group. In this case, Divac might look unusual for a Serb to a foreigner, but perhaps not to another Serb.

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  • @Heyhey
    You're being very naive if you believe a superior IQ was enough, while dismissing quite banal facts of ethnic nepotism and entryism.

    Jews of North African descent, whose measured IQs are closer to average, still enjoy disproportionate economic footprint and influence in France. On the other hand, you can find sub-groups with high measured IQs in the US, like Episcopalians, whose economic dominance or political primacy barely register.

    I said primarily due to superior average IQ.

    There also seems to be some kind of “Mediterranean factor” at play – apart from Jews, Greek Americans and Christian Arab Americans also have far more in the Forbes 400 than their demographics + IQ would indicate.

    A few years ago I speculated that is because those areas have had a couple millennias’ worth more experience of urban life than Germanics, and are more adept at wheeling-dealing their way into riches.

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    • Replies: @Zenarchy
    Clannish people do well in business. In Europe, the South has remained more clannish, more similar to Semites in some ways. That's probably the explanation for Greeks doing well.
    Even in India, the most clannish trader castes are much richer than the national average. Although, every population with a long history of trading does usually well financially.

    Of course, if you add Ashkenazi IQ and nepotism in the mix, it's a win-win combination. Slavs or Germans don't capitalize on their IQs too well (especially Slavs historically).

    The opposite extreme from Jews would be Albanians and Chechens - strong clannishness, but combined with low IQs and sheep tending instead of trade - resulting in blood feuds and poverty.
    , @anonymous34
    I have an idea that Jewish success in all spheres including business comes down to three big factors: high intelligence, mania for achievement, and hyper-curiosity.
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  • @Greasy William

    In my experience, Russian-American Jews (“Sovok Jews”) tend to be very anti-Russian; my impressions don’t sync with yours.
     
    Are we talking about Soviet Jews or old stock American Jews of Russian Jewish decent? Secular American Jews of "Russian" (really Lithuanian, Latvian, Belarussian and Ukrainian) decent are usually moderately anti Russian while being proud of their (non-existent) Russian ancestry. Similar to how Haitians like to brag about their non-existant white blood despite the fact that they hate white people.

    Religious American Jews, actually religious Jews period, tend to get offended whenever it is suggested they have any non Jewish descent.

    Soviet Jews in the US are usually big time Russophiles so I don't know what you are talking about there. Even in Israel you have some Russophilic Soviet Jews like Lieberman and Sharansky and their type used to be the norm before the Russian Jews assimilated into Israeli culture and adopted the traditional Jewish Russophobia.

    Also, are you admitting that you have never said anything positive about Muslims?

    Most Soviet Jews are anti-Russian. I’m not representative.

    Historically most minorities assimilated into majority populations. How does a group become an exception to that rule, how does it stay coherent as a minority for many centuries? By disliking the majority. There are other examples: Gypsies, Armenians to some extent. I’m curious about the Hakka in China because they seem to have gone in some of the same directions as Jews, completely independently. It’s possible that any complex society would have that sort of a niche. Nature abhors a vacuum and tends to fill niches.

    If you randomly take a thousand minority groups, some of them will be more ethno-nationalist than others. It’s the kind of trait for which you’d expect to see some natural variation.

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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    I understand and accept that Jewish economic success is primarily due to their superior average IQ, as opposed to ZOG or whatever. This along makes me far more philo-Semitic than most Russian (and European) nationalists, and even quite a few Leftists.

    I don't go on about Anglo-Zionists, like one columnist on this website. In general, I do not care for Israel (or Palestine) one way or the other.

    I praised Russian-American Jews for supporting Trumps.

    In my experience, Russian-American Jews ("Sovok Jews") tend to be very anti-Russian; my impressions don't sync with yours.

    You’re being very naive if you believe a superior IQ was enough, while dismissing quite banal facts of ethnic nepotism and entryism.

    Jews of North African descent, whose measured IQs are closer to average, still enjoy disproportionate economic footprint and influence in France. On the other hand, you can find sub-groups with high measured IQs in the US, like Episcopalians, whose economic dominance or political primacy barely register.

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    I said primarily due to superior average IQ.

    There also seems to be some kind of "Mediterranean factor" at play - apart from Jews, Greek Americans and Christian Arab Americans also have far more in the Forbes 400 than their demographics + IQ would indicate.

    A few years ago I speculated that is because those areas have had a couple millennias' worth more experience of urban life than Germanics, and are more adept at wheeling-dealing their way into riches.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anatoly Karlin
    I understand and accept that Jewish economic success is primarily due to their superior average IQ, as opposed to ZOG or whatever. This along makes me far more philo-Semitic than most Russian (and European) nationalists, and even quite a few Leftists.

    I don't go on about Anglo-Zionists, like one columnist on this website. In general, I do not care for Israel (or Palestine) one way or the other.

    I praised Russian-American Jews for supporting Trumps.

    In my experience, Russian-American Jews ("Sovok Jews") tend to be very anti-Russian; my impressions don't sync with yours.

    In my experience, Russian-American Jews (“Sovok Jews”) tend to be very anti-Russian; my impressions don’t sync with yours.

    Are we talking about Soviet Jews or old stock American Jews of Russian Jewish decent? Secular American Jews of “Russian” (really Lithuanian, Latvian, Belarussian and Ukrainian) decent are usually moderately anti Russian while being proud of their (non-existent) Russian ancestry. Similar to how Haitians like to brag about their non-existant white blood despite the fact that they hate white people.

    Religious American Jews, actually religious Jews period, tend to get offended whenever it is suggested they have any non Jewish descent.

    Soviet Jews in the US are usually big time Russophiles so I don’t know what you are talking about there. Even in Israel you have some Russophilic Soviet Jews like Lieberman and Sharansky and their type used to be the norm before the Russian Jews assimilated into Israeli culture and adopted the traditional Jewish Russophobia.

    Also, are you admitting that you have never said anything positive about Muslims?

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    • Replies: @Glossy
    Most Soviet Jews are anti-Russian. I'm not representative.

    Historically most minorities assimilated into majority populations. How does a group become an exception to that rule, how does it stay coherent as a minority for many centuries? By disliking the majority. There are other examples: Gypsies, Armenians to some extent. I'm curious about the Hakka in China because they seem to have gone in some of the same directions as Jews, completely independently. It's possible that any complex society would have that sort of a niche. Nature abhors a vacuum and tends to fill niches.

    If you randomly take a thousand minority groups, some of them will be more ethno-nationalist than others. It's the kind of trait for which you'd expect to see some natural variation.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Greasy William

    There are some theories floating around on the internets as to whether I am a bagel or even “a Turk of sorts and probably a muzzie actually.”
     
    Despite the fact that you have never had anything even remotely positive to say about either of those groups?

    I don't know if there any any Jews left in Russia, but American Jews of Russian Jewish descent love to brag that they are "Russian". My own mother is big on that. This is despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of pre WWI Russian Jews never set foot in Russia proper and by all accounts disliked Russians and Russian culture, although not as much as they disliked Ukrainians and Poles.

    Secular American Jews get angry if you say they aren't Russian, religious American Jews get angry if you say they *are* Russian.

    I've never had any genetic testing done because I really just don't want to know what I really am.

    I understand and accept that Jewish economic success is primarily due to their superior average IQ, as opposed to ZOG or whatever. This along makes me far more philo-Semitic than most Russian (and European) nationalists, and even quite a few Leftists.

    I don’t go on about Anglo-Zionists, like one columnist on this website. In general, I do not care for Israel (or Palestine) one way or the other.

    I praised Russian-American Jews for supporting Trumps.

    In my experience, Russian-American Jews (“Sovok Jews”) tend to be very anti-Russian; my impressions don’t sync with yours.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Greasy William

    In my experience, Russian-American Jews (“Sovok Jews”) tend to be very anti-Russian; my impressions don’t sync with yours.
     
    Are we talking about Soviet Jews or old stock American Jews of Russian Jewish decent? Secular American Jews of "Russian" (really Lithuanian, Latvian, Belarussian and Ukrainian) decent are usually moderately anti Russian while being proud of their (non-existent) Russian ancestry. Similar to how Haitians like to brag about their non-existant white blood despite the fact that they hate white people.

    Religious American Jews, actually religious Jews period, tend to get offended whenever it is suggested they have any non Jewish descent.

    Soviet Jews in the US are usually big time Russophiles so I don't know what you are talking about there. Even in Israel you have some Russophilic Soviet Jews like Lieberman and Sharansky and their type used to be the norm before the Russian Jews assimilated into Israeli culture and adopted the traditional Jewish Russophobia.

    Also, are you admitting that you have never said anything positive about Muslims?
    , @Heyhey
    You're being very naive if you believe a superior IQ was enough, while dismissing quite banal facts of ethnic nepotism and entryism.

    Jews of North African descent, whose measured IQs are closer to average, still enjoy disproportionate economic footprint and influence in France. On the other hand, you can find sub-groups with high measured IQs in the US, like Episcopalians, whose economic dominance or political primacy barely register.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Mark Eugenikos

    almost all of the Serbs I know that have that appearance
     
    Can you be a bit more specific about "that appearance"? I am curious to know what appearance you have in mind. Were you referring to different cheekbnes, Central Asian? Or something else? Best if you could provide several known people (athletes, musicians, etc.) as examples.

    Hi, Mark.

    I’m guessing about 10 percent Serbs I know personally here in Slovenia look a bit different than other Southern Slavs I know (which are many), but I can’t post any of their photos for obvious reasons. I only know about 10 famous Serbs, though, and the closest to what I had in mind would likely be the rapper from post. 39 in this thread…
    Different, but still somehow more Serbian than say Croatian would be Vlade Divac – photo in the post No. 10 in this thread.

    As I said, those could simply be elements of Balkan genetics that are very rare and didn’t spread towards NW parts of the Balkan… And quite possibly, these 2 might not look foreign in Macedonia or Bulgaria as those are the Balkan nationalities I know the least (numerically at least).

    p.s. We sometimes joke about Balkan jaws here in Slovenia (well, not me really). Compared to Slovenes or Poles, Czechs etc, it does seem there’s some stronger chewing power there (Is sheep meat difficult to chew? :)

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    • Replies: @Mark Eugenikos
    Thanks for the examples.

    To me, Divac's face looks more Gypsy than anything else, although his size would be extremely unusual for a Gypsy, as they tend to be on a small side. I agree that his phenotype is unusual for Serbs.

    Regarding the rapper, I can see why he looks Central Asian to you. Disregarding the beard, his combination of a long nose and small, shallow-set eyes makes him look Central Asian. Again, not a typical Serbian phenotype, in my experience.

    From my observations of the Serbs and other West Balkan peoples, it's relatively common to find people with big brows and deep-set eyes, which make some look more Neanderthal. That's the one thing that, to my eyes, makes Serbs visibly different from Russians. Russians often have shallow eye sockets, to the point that some look like blond Chinese.

    Also comparing Southern Slavs (Balkans) to the Northern Slavs (Czechs, Poles, etc.), to me the southerners' faces seem more angular, while the northerners' look softer and more rounded. Which would work in favor of northern women and of southern men. Just my opinion, though.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • There are some theories floating around on the internets as to whether I am a bagel or even “a Turk of sorts and probably a muzzie actually.”

    Despite the fact that you have never had anything even remotely positive to say about either of those groups?

    I don’t know if there any any Jews left in Russia, but American Jews of Russian Jewish descent love to brag that they are “Russian”. My own mother is big on that. This is despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of pre WWI Russian Jews never set foot in Russia proper and by all accounts disliked Russians and Russian culture, although not as much as they disliked Ukrainians and Poles.

    Secular American Jews get angry if you say they aren’t Russian, religious American Jews get angry if you say they *are* Russian.

    I’ve never had any genetic testing done because I really just don’t want to know what I really am.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    I understand and accept that Jewish economic success is primarily due to their superior average IQ, as opposed to ZOG or whatever. This along makes me far more philo-Semitic than most Russian (and European) nationalists, and even quite a few Leftists.

    I don't go on about Anglo-Zionists, like one columnist on this website. In general, I do not care for Israel (or Palestine) one way or the other.

    I praised Russian-American Jews for supporting Trumps.

    In my experience, Russian-American Jews ("Sovok Jews") tend to be very anti-Russian; my impressions don't sync with yours.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Niccolo Salo
    Here we go:

    "But see, I just happen to know A LOT of Serbs with different cheekbones that I see in other Slavs, and these facial structures look a bit central Asian, so I assumed Turkish origin. You see, unlike other invasions in these parts, Turks were known for mass rapes and butchery while at war (although pretty civilized when finally in power). Let’s wait until we have huge studies, but I’m sure Serbs do have at some legacy of Turkish invasions (like SE Russians do of Tatar ones)."

    I'm a Croatian from Hercegovina and grew up around a lot of Serbs from various regions.

    Your mistake is in your assumptions and resting on visual clues. I just found a study of 85 Serbs from Aleksandrovac which is in Central Serbia and serves as a good case study for Serbs in Serbia in general.

    Check out the table at the bottom here - https://s6.postimg.org/rl0ehxpkx/aleksandrovac_003.png

    The only haplogroup there that isn't European is Q and is found at a frequency of 1.17% in Aleksandrovac in this study. The Serbian site Poreklo.rs has many, many more samples from Serbs from all over the ex-YU and the same frequencies largely hold. Q is also found on the island of Hvar in Croatia, a place where Turks never reached. Q is probably a legacy haplogroup from Avars or Pechenegs or in the Serbian case, Kumans from the Medieval era. There is a city in Northern Macedonia called Kumanovo (Place of the Cumans) where this tribe's soldiers were settled by the Byzantines during the Medieval era. We won't know the source of this Q until more corpses are exhumed and tested from that era.

    The evidence so far in Turkey is that only certain parts of Central Anatolia have any genetic input from Central Asia. I think one of the regions has something like 14% of its haplogroups showing derived from the Central Asian Stans. The rest of Turkey largely being those groups that were there prior to the arrival of the Seljuks which is why today's Turks cluster most closely with Armenians, Kurds, and Greeks and not with Uzbeks, Tajiks, or Kyrgyz.

    Thanks for the detailed info. Now I feel like I want to send my sample to 23andme and figure out at least part of the family history, beyond about 250 years for which we have the records.

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    • Replies: @Niccolo Salo
    Here is my result - https://s6.postimg.org/71wbldww1/cap1.png

    I tested around two years ago and will be doing a Y-67 at FTNDA soon to get a deeper read on my paternal line, which is J-M241 (aka J2B2*) which is Balkan as fuck and has its highest frequencies in Aroumanian (Cincar) people of Southern Albania and the Greek Pindus Mountains that form the border between Epirus and Thessaly, and among Albanians, particularly the Hoti Tribe of Montenegro along their border with Albania.

    A friend of mine from my county in Hercegovina and who is from the same parish as I am (7 villages away), tested J-M241 as well and he did his Y-67. He and I aren't related (unless we go back a good distance, is my gut feeling) and this clade isn't all that common. What he found is that his most recent common ancestor with any Albanians who have this clade is well over 2,000 years old, and the closest Serb to him genetically (who coincidentally is from Glamoc, right next door to us, just on the other side of the mountain) shares a most common recent ancestor dating back 3,900 years.

    I am working under the assumption that he and I will have a much, much closer date for the simple reason that is paternal line comes from further south in Hercegovina, just like my paternal line (who made a couple of stops in Dalmatia along the way).
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  • @Zenarchy
    Thanks man, excellent reply.

    Good for you to be cool and not anti-Serb, being a Croat from Hercegovina. But you still didn't give me your personal opinion regarding physical characteristics.

    I'd like to see skull measurements, but if you say these features come from native Balkan people (I2a??), I have to believe you for now as evidence points to your claims being true.
    Interestingly, almost all of the Serbs I know that have that appearance, are very bellicose, even more than other Balkan peoples, famous for not being fans of non-violence.

    almost all of the Serbs I know that have that appearance

    Can you be a bit more specific about “that appearance”? I am curious to know what appearance you have in mind. Were you referring to different cheekbnes, Central Asian? Or something else? Best if you could provide several known people (athletes, musicians, etc.) as examples.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Zenarchy
    Hi, Mark.

    I'm guessing about 10 percent Serbs I know personally here in Slovenia look a bit different than other Southern Slavs I know (which are many), but I can't post any of their photos for obvious reasons. I only know about 10 famous Serbs, though, and the closest to what I had in mind would likely be the rapper from post. 39 in this thread...
    Different, but still somehow more Serbian than say Croatian would be Vlade Divac - photo in the post No. 10 in this thread.

    As I said, those could simply be elements of Balkan genetics that are very rare and didn't spread towards NW parts of the Balkan... And quite possibly, these 2 might not look foreign in Macedonia or Bulgaria as those are the Balkan nationalities I know the least (numerically at least).

    p.s. We sometimes joke about Balkan jaws here in Slovenia (well, not me really). Compared to Slovenes or Poles, Czechs etc, it does seem there's some stronger chewing power there (Is sheep meat difficult to chew? :)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @BB753
    How did a Muslim Lak, presumably female, marry into a Christian family before the revolution? Just curious.

    AK: No, the Lak is my maternal grandfather. Much more recent than the Revolution.

    Ok, it makes sense. Still, your mother is technically Muslim and yet married a Christian . Were Muslim customs and laws totally overruled by Communism?

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  • @Niccolo Salo
    Here we go:

    "But see, I just happen to know A LOT of Serbs with different cheekbones that I see in other Slavs, and these facial structures look a bit central Asian, so I assumed Turkish origin. You see, unlike other invasions in these parts, Turks were known for mass rapes and butchery while at war (although pretty civilized when finally in power). Let’s wait until we have huge studies, but I’m sure Serbs do have at some legacy of Turkish invasions (like SE Russians do of Tatar ones)."

    I'm a Croatian from Hercegovina and grew up around a lot of Serbs from various regions.

    Your mistake is in your assumptions and resting on visual clues. I just found a study of 85 Serbs from Aleksandrovac which is in Central Serbia and serves as a good case study for Serbs in Serbia in general.

    Check out the table at the bottom here - https://s6.postimg.org/rl0ehxpkx/aleksandrovac_003.png

    The only haplogroup there that isn't European is Q and is found at a frequency of 1.17% in Aleksandrovac in this study. The Serbian site Poreklo.rs has many, many more samples from Serbs from all over the ex-YU and the same frequencies largely hold. Q is also found on the island of Hvar in Croatia, a place where Turks never reached. Q is probably a legacy haplogroup from Avars or Pechenegs or in the Serbian case, Kumans from the Medieval era. There is a city in Northern Macedonia called Kumanovo (Place of the Cumans) where this tribe's soldiers were settled by the Byzantines during the Medieval era. We won't know the source of this Q until more corpses are exhumed and tested from that era.

    The evidence so far in Turkey is that only certain parts of Central Anatolia have any genetic input from Central Asia. I think one of the regions has something like 14% of its haplogroups showing derived from the Central Asian Stans. The rest of Turkey largely being those groups that were there prior to the arrival of the Seljuks which is why today's Turks cluster most closely with Armenians, Kurds, and Greeks and not with Uzbeks, Tajiks, or Kyrgyz.

    Thanks man, excellent reply.

    Good for you to be cool and not anti-Serb, being a Croat from Hercegovina. But you still didn’t give me your personal opinion regarding physical characteristics.

    I’d like to see skull measurements, but if you say these features come from native Balkan people (I2a??), I have to believe you for now as evidence points to your claims being true.
    Interestingly, almost all of the Serbs I know that have that appearance, are very bellicose, even more than other Balkan peoples, famous for not being fans of non-violence.

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    • Replies: @Mark Eugenikos

    almost all of the Serbs I know that have that appearance
     
    Can you be a bit more specific about "that appearance"? I am curious to know what appearance you have in mind. Were you referring to different cheekbnes, Central Asian? Or something else? Best if you could provide several known people (athletes, musicians, etc.) as examples.
    , @Niccolo Salo
    "Good for you to be cool and not anti-Serb, being a Croat from Hercegovina. But you still didn’t give me your personal opinion regarding physical characteristics."

    There's no point in being reflexively anti-Serb as the Serbian problem in Croatia no longer exists, except for a couple of shitheads on both sides seeking to keep themselves employed/in the public spotlight.

    As for physical characteristics, the Balkans have seen so many people pass through here and settle here, so certain odd appearances do pop up. Recall also that significant waves of assimilation have happened here over and over and over again. The Principality of Serbia (and later Kingdom) during the mid-19th century passed a law declaring that anyone who lived in Serbia for at least 10 years was automatically declared a Serb and would have to adopt a Serbian name and surname. This had the effect of rapidly assimilating many minorities of the time, particularly Cincars/Aroumanians, Greeks, Armenians, Vlachs, Bulgars, and yes, gypsies. Any settlement from Asia Minor/Anatolia in that smaller part of Serbia was mainly up in Belgrade and consisted of Greek and Armenian merchants and traders.
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  • Anatoly, Karlin is not an uncommon ethnic Russian surname, as you can see here: https://www.obd-memorial.ru/html/search.htm?f=%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD&n=&s=&y=&r=&p=1

    The root of the name is the dialectal word “karla” – which is basically the same thing as karlik (someone who is very short, a dwarf, etc). Also, a “son of Karl” would be Karlov, not Karlin, though in fact most Russian Karlovs have nothing to do with any Karls and have essentially the same name root as Karlins – the word “karlo” (same thing as “karla”).

    “the village Karlin near Pinsk” – err, what? Unless you know your ancestors were from around that area, wouldn’t it be more reasonable to look at places like Karlino, Tula oblast? Or the river Karlinka and adjacent settlement Karlinskoye in Ulyanovsk oblast?

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  • @Zenarchy
    Good reply.
    But see, I just happen to know A LOT of Serbs with different cheekbones that I see in other Slavs, and these facial structures look a bit central Asian, so I assumed Turkish origin. You see, unlike other invasions in these parts, Turks were known for mass rapes and butchery while at war (although pretty civilized when finally in power). Let's wait until we have huge studies, but I'm sure Serbs do have at some legacy of Turkish invasions (like SE Russians do of Tatar ones).

    You look at someone like Novak Djokovich and you see the typical Illyrian body type and head. You look at Branislav Ivanovich, and you see the strong Slavic influence (plus a bit of the Balkan).
    But while I know genetics does not always equal appearance, faces such as this Slovenian rapper of Serbian origin do look a bit Central Asian, don't they?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqtoqUs1zxo

    Here we go:

    “But see, I just happen to know A LOT of Serbs with different cheekbones that I see in other Slavs, and these facial structures look a bit central Asian, so I assumed Turkish origin. You see, unlike other invasions in these parts, Turks were known for mass rapes and butchery while at war (although pretty civilized when finally in power). Let’s wait until we have huge studies, but I’m sure Serbs do have at some legacy of Turkish invasions (like SE Russians do of Tatar ones).”

    I’m a Croatian from Hercegovina and grew up around a lot of Serbs from various regions.

    Your mistake is in your assumptions and resting on visual clues. I just found a study of 85 Serbs from Aleksandrovac which is in Central Serbia and serves as a good case study for Serbs in Serbia in general.

    Check out the table at the bottom here -

    The only haplogroup there that isn’t European is Q and is found at a frequency of 1.17% in Aleksandrovac in this study. The Serbian site Poreklo.rs has many, many more samples from Serbs from all over the ex-YU and the same frequencies largely hold. Q is also found on the island of Hvar in Croatia, a place where Turks never reached. Q is probably a legacy haplogroup from Avars or Pechenegs or in the Serbian case, Kumans from the Medieval era. There is a city in Northern Macedonia called Kumanovo (Place of the Cumans) where this tribe’s soldiers were settled by the Byzantines during the Medieval era. We won’t know the source of this Q until more corpses are exhumed and tested from that era.

    The evidence so far in Turkey is that only certain parts of Central Anatolia have any genetic input from Central Asia. I think one of the regions has something like 14% of its haplogroups showing derived from the Central Asian Stans. The rest of Turkey largely being those groups that were there prior to the arrival of the Seljuks which is why today’s Turks cluster most closely with Armenians, Kurds, and Greeks and not with Uzbeks, Tajiks, or Kyrgyz.

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    • Replies: @Zenarchy
    Thanks man, excellent reply.

    Good for you to be cool and not anti-Serb, being a Croat from Hercegovina. But you still didn't give me your personal opinion regarding physical characteristics.

    I'd like to see skull measurements, but if you say these features come from native Balkan people (I2a??), I have to believe you for now as evidence points to your claims being true.
    Interestingly, almost all of the Serbs I know that have that appearance, are very bellicose, even more than other Balkan peoples, famous for not being fans of non-violence.
    , @Mark Eugenikos
    Thanks for the detailed info. Now I feel like I want to send my sample to 23andme and figure out at least part of the family history, beyond about 250 years for which we have the records.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anatoly Karlin
    23andme isn't just ancestry, it gives health reports as well (or did: The FDA decided peons couldn't be trusted with it and told 23andme to stop doing it. Though as I recall that decision has recently been reversed).

    Anyhow, the people who had 23andme done before that ruling kept their health reports, and I have to say their assessments are actually remarkably accurate and correlate to what we know of family medical history very well.

    Thank you for clarifying your intentions. Realistically speaking, it is impossible for any minimally independent-minded person to find someone they agree with 100% or even close. The best we can do is triangulate.

    I think a better or the real way to get a health report is to go to hospital. Moreover in Russia it’s (in theory) free and in the USA you must be covered.

    I suppose the only thing they could do is to do simple checks for some genes which make you liable to some diseases.

    What drives me off is their calculation. How is it possible to get percentage? Imagine I got a report stating 50% EE[urope], 25% SE, and 25% EA[sian]. What does it mean? I know for sure I’m 100% EE. If they suggest I’ve got some ancestors from NE, SE, or EA, they would be wrong as I know not only where my grandparents were from, but my great-grandparents as well. They weren’t for sure from Japan or the Balkans. That is I’m not even 1/8 other than EE. I’m not some American mongrel with a whole bouquet of ancestries from all around the world and who wants to know the exact “percentage”.

    If they suggest my distant ancestors from a thousand or more years ago came from some distant land, so I would ask them how do they know what genes the people in particular regions had back then? And what is their database to draw such conclusions? Have their company made a thorough study of the full genomes of the world population and created a global genetic database? I doubt that anybody did that. They rather have only Y-hg. They check your Y-hg against the well-known world distributions and thus they got their strange numbers. Yes, if you have R1a, and R1a is 50%-60% in EE, 10% in SE and 1% in EA, so you’re most probably 50%-60% EE, 10% SE and 1% EA. How dumb simple.

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  • @Niccolo Salo
    There is no evidence that Serbs are "Turkish rape babies". The Middle Eastern haplogroups present in the Balkans arrived there a very, very long time ago, with G2a showing up during the Neolithic, and the J1 and J2 variants showing up anywhere between the Neolithic and the Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age.

    There was no mass settlement of Anatolian Turks anywhere near Serbia nor North or West of it. Small numbers were settled in today's Greece and Bulgaria, but most self-identified Turks in the Balkans were simply locals who had converted, thus leaving legacy populations in today's Macedonia and Bulgaria. Turks in Greece were sent to Turkey after WW1 if they hadn't already left previously.

    Serbia, Bosnia, Albania, and Ottoman occupied portions of today's Croatia had no Turkish settlers as the Ottoman officials in these places were all converts from local populations. Many of these chose to move to other parts of the Ottoman Empire (all the way to Istanbul and Izmir/Smyrna in many cases) when these lands kicked the empire out.

    Good reply.
    But see, I just happen to know A LOT of Serbs with different cheekbones that I see in other Slavs, and these facial structures look a bit central Asian, so I assumed Turkish origin. You see, unlike other invasions in these parts, Turks were known for mass rapes and butchery while at war (although pretty civilized when finally in power). Let’s wait until we have huge studies, but I’m sure Serbs do have at some legacy of Turkish invasions (like SE Russians do of Tatar ones).

    You look at someone like Novak Djokovich and you see the typical Illyrian body type and head. You look at Branislav Ivanovich, and you see the strong Slavic influence (plus a bit of the Balkan).
    But while I know genetics does not always equal appearance, faces such as this Slovenian rapper of Serbian origin do look a bit Central Asian, don’t they?

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    • Replies: @Niccolo Salo
    Here we go:

    "But see, I just happen to know A LOT of Serbs with different cheekbones that I see in other Slavs, and these facial structures look a bit central Asian, so I assumed Turkish origin. You see, unlike other invasions in these parts, Turks were known for mass rapes and butchery while at war (although pretty civilized when finally in power). Let’s wait until we have huge studies, but I’m sure Serbs do have at some legacy of Turkish invasions (like SE Russians do of Tatar ones)."

    I'm a Croatian from Hercegovina and grew up around a lot of Serbs from various regions.

    Your mistake is in your assumptions and resting on visual clues. I just found a study of 85 Serbs from Aleksandrovac which is in Central Serbia and serves as a good case study for Serbs in Serbia in general.

    Check out the table at the bottom here - https://s6.postimg.org/rl0ehxpkx/aleksandrovac_003.png

    The only haplogroup there that isn't European is Q and is found at a frequency of 1.17% in Aleksandrovac in this study. The Serbian site Poreklo.rs has many, many more samples from Serbs from all over the ex-YU and the same frequencies largely hold. Q is also found on the island of Hvar in Croatia, a place where Turks never reached. Q is probably a legacy haplogroup from Avars or Pechenegs or in the Serbian case, Kumans from the Medieval era. There is a city in Northern Macedonia called Kumanovo (Place of the Cumans) where this tribe's soldiers were settled by the Byzantines during the Medieval era. We won't know the source of this Q until more corpses are exhumed and tested from that era.

    The evidence so far in Turkey is that only certain parts of Central Anatolia have any genetic input from Central Asia. I think one of the regions has something like 14% of its haplogroups showing derived from the Central Asian Stans. The rest of Turkey largely being those groups that were there prior to the arrival of the Seljuks which is why today's Turks cluster most closely with Armenians, Kurds, and Greeks and not with Uzbeks, Tajiks, or Kyrgyz.
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  • @Halvorson
    The Eurogenes K15 test on Gedmatch is probably the best overall at pinpointing genetic ancestry. They have a Oracle program there that models your results as a mixture of many different populations. I think it's especially good for mutts. Results look like this:

    http://i.imgur.com/BC1ZYqc.jpg

    You should also consider uploading your results to DNA Land. Their ancestry reports break down East European and Middle Eastern ancestry in a more detailed way than 23andMe.

    Thanks! I’ll make a note to check this out.

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  • The Eurogenes K15 test on Gedmatch is probably the best overall at pinpointing genetic ancestry. They have a Oracle program there that models your results as a mixture of many different populations. I think it’s especially good for mutts. Results look like this:

    You should also consider uploading your results to DNA Land. Their ancestry reports break down East European and Middle Eastern ancestry in a more detailed way than 23andMe.

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Thanks! I'll make a note to check this out.
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  • I wonder how your 23andMe would compare with the averages of

    (1) All citizens of Russia

    (2) self-identified Ethnic Russians (I am quite certain you identify as an ethnic Russian)

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  • How did a Muslim Lak, presumably female, marry into a Christian family before the revolution? Just curious.

    AK: No, the Lak is my maternal grandfather. Much more recent than the Revolution.

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    • Replies: @BB753
    Ok, it makes sense. Still, your mother is technically Muslim and yet married a Christian . Were Muslim customs and laws totally overruled by Communism?
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  • @Zenarchy
    Much of it, yes. Especially in the Western parts of the Balkans (Albanians are the most Illyrian), so probably Dalmatians, Herzegovinians, and Montenegrins. There's definitely ME genetics there as well, though.

    There is no evidence that Serbs are “Turkish rape babies”. The Middle Eastern haplogroups present in the Balkans arrived there a very, very long time ago, with G2a showing up during the Neolithic, and the J1 and J2 variants showing up anywhere between the Neolithic and the Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age.

    There was no mass settlement of Anatolian Turks anywhere near Serbia nor North or West of it. Small numbers were settled in today’s Greece and Bulgaria, but most self-identified Turks in the Balkans were simply locals who had converted, thus leaving legacy populations in today’s Macedonia and Bulgaria. Turks in Greece were sent to Turkey after WW1 if they hadn’t already left previously.

    Serbia, Bosnia, Albania, and Ottoman occupied portions of today’s Croatia had no Turkish settlers as the Ottoman officials in these places were all converts from local populations. Many of these chose to move to other parts of the Ottoman Empire (all the way to Istanbul and Izmir/Smyrna in many cases) when these lands kicked the empire out.

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    • Replies: @Zenarchy
    Good reply.
    But see, I just happen to know A LOT of Serbs with different cheekbones that I see in other Slavs, and these facial structures look a bit central Asian, so I assumed Turkish origin. You see, unlike other invasions in these parts, Turks were known for mass rapes and butchery while at war (although pretty civilized when finally in power). Let's wait until we have huge studies, but I'm sure Serbs do have at some legacy of Turkish invasions (like SE Russians do of Tatar ones).

    You look at someone like Novak Djokovich and you see the typical Illyrian body type and head. You look at Branislav Ivanovich, and you see the strong Slavic influence (plus a bit of the Balkan).
    But while I know genetics does not always equal appearance, faces such as this Slovenian rapper of Serbian origin do look a bit Central Asian, don't they?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqtoqUs1zxo
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  • @Anatoly Karlin
    23andme isn't just ancestry, it gives health reports as well (or did: The FDA decided peons couldn't be trusted with it and told 23andme to stop doing it. Though as I recall that decision has recently been reversed).

    Anyhow, the people who had 23andme done before that ruling kept their health reports, and I have to say their assessments are actually remarkably accurate and correlate to what we know of family medical history very well.

    Thank you for clarifying your intentions. Realistically speaking, it is impossible for any minimally independent-minded person to find someone they agree with 100% or even close. The best we can do is triangulate.

    What is triangulating in this context?

    Virtually every day I look up some argot, especially initialisms, … I look up in this-and-that encyclopedia, & search engine, the Urban dictionary … and my sense is that there is an excess of jargon use. In the past few days, even an abnormally pedantic reader like me ended up puzzled 2-3 times.

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  • @iffen
    The best we can do is triangulate.

    I thought this was patented by the liberals. I was unaware of it being open source and available to the dark side.

    (((they))) want ur genetic fingerprint for future use and u give to them for free? goood goy

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  • The best we can do is triangulate.

    I thought this was patented by the liberals. I was unaware of it being open source and available to the dark side.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    (((they))) want ur genetic fingerprint for future use and u give to them for free? goood goy
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  • @Boris N
    I haven't taken the test and it's unlikely I'll do it just for a reason that all my paternal ancestors came from a region which have one of the highest proportion of R1a, so the likeliest chance I have it either. Unlikely I will know something new with a test. Do we turn out to be distant relatives then, he? VERY distant, though.

    Just a side note. We have had a lot of arguments and we've trolled each other a lot and I disagree with you in about half of things, but I have always had a positive view on you, otherwise I wouldn't read and comment. So you would be wrong if you thought I'm your adversary or even enemy. I just like arguing just for the fun of it.

    23andme isn’t just ancestry, it gives health reports as well (or did: The FDA decided peons couldn’t be trusted with it and told 23andme to stop doing it. Though as I recall that decision has recently been reversed).

    Anyhow, the people who had 23andme done before that ruling kept their health reports, and I have to say their assessments are actually remarkably accurate and correlate to what we know of family medical history very well.

    Thank you for clarifying your intentions. Realistically speaking, it is impossible for any minimally independent-minded person to find someone they agree with 100% or even close. The best we can do is triangulate.

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    • Replies: @Ivan K.
    What is triangulating in this context?

    Virtually every day I look up some argot, especially initialisms, ... I look up in this-and-that encyclopedia, & search engine, the Urban dictionary ... and my sense is that there is an excess of jargon use. In the past few days, even an abnormally pedantic reader like me ended up puzzled 2-3 times.
    , @Boris N
    I think a better or the real way to get a health report is to go to hospital. Moreover in Russia it's (in theory) free and in the USA you must be covered.

    I suppose the only thing they could do is to do simple checks for some genes which make you liable to some diseases.

    What drives me off is their calculation. How is it possible to get percentage? Imagine I got a report stating 50% EE[urope], 25% SE, and 25% EA[sian]. What does it mean? I know for sure I'm 100% EE. If they suggest I've got some ancestors from NE, SE, or EA, they would be wrong as I know not only where my grandparents were from, but my great-grandparents as well. They weren't for sure from Japan or the Balkans. That is I'm not even 1/8 other than EE. I'm not some American mongrel with a whole bouquet of ancestries from all around the world and who wants to know the exact "percentage".

    If they suggest my distant ancestors from a thousand or more years ago came from some distant land, so I would ask them how do they know what genes the people in particular regions had back then? And what is their database to draw such conclusions? Have their company made a thorough study of the full genomes of the world population and created a global genetic database? I doubt that anybody did that. They rather have only Y-hg. They check your Y-hg against the well-known world distributions and thus they got their strange numbers. Yes, if you have R1a, and R1a is 50%-60% in EE, 10% in SE and 1% in EA, so you're most probably 50%-60% EE, 10% SE and 1% EA. How dumb simple.
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  • @Glossy
    Anatoly has said that his parents are scientists. Lots of scientists of many backgrounds, including ethnic Russians, left the former USSR in the 1990s to work at Western universities. This was because the Yeltsin-oligarchic regime didn't pay them salaries and didn't care about science.

    One of my childhood friends was an ethnically-Russian son of biologists who ended up in the West for this reason.

    I think Nina "Byzantina" of Twitter fame is of that background too.
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  • @German_reader
    So Dagestanis genetically cluster with the MENA region? Seems counterintuitive to me.
    Anyway, good luck with your genealogical studies, your family history seems to be more interesting than is the case for most people.

    Since presumably very few Dagestanis get tested by 23andme, I’d assume it struggles to characterize them; hence, presumably, that component being split between “Balkan” 11% + MENA 8% + “Broadly South European” 6% = conveniently round 25%.

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  • @Glossy
    I think that the non-Slavic ancestry in the former Yugoslavia is ancient Illyrian.

    Much of it, yes. Especially in the Western parts of the Balkans (Albanians are the most Illyrian), so probably Dalmatians, Herzegovinians, and Montenegrins. There’s definitely ME genetics there as well, though.

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    • Replies: @Niccolo Salo
    There is no evidence that Serbs are "Turkish rape babies". The Middle Eastern haplogroups present in the Balkans arrived there a very, very long time ago, with G2a showing up during the Neolithic, and the J1 and J2 variants showing up anywhere between the Neolithic and the Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age.

    There was no mass settlement of Anatolian Turks anywhere near Serbia nor North or West of it. Small numbers were settled in today's Greece and Bulgaria, but most self-identified Turks in the Balkans were simply locals who had converted, thus leaving legacy populations in today's Macedonia and Bulgaria. Turks in Greece were sent to Turkey after WW1 if they hadn't already left previously.

    Serbia, Bosnia, Albania, and Ottoman occupied portions of today's Croatia had no Turkish settlers as the Ottoman officials in these places were all converts from local populations. Many of these chose to move to other parts of the Ottoman Empire (all the way to Istanbul and Izmir/Smyrna in many cases) when these lands kicked the empire out.
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  • @Glossy
    I think that in Western Europe all births were recorded starting in the 16th century. So you could probably trace your Italian side really, really far back.

    I think that within the Russian empire the recording of all births started much later. I'm assuming the 19th century, though I don't know for sure.

    Even though Jews had high literacy, they didn't use it to record any of this. So the earliest ancestors of mine that I'm aware of are two great-great-grandparents who were probably born in the 1840s or 1850s. And this is only because a cousin of my mom's spent some time researching this.

    I know so little about my ancestry that I've never needed software. Instead I have a standard-sized piece of printer paper on which I drew a tree, and which I put in a photo album.

    I've seen a database of the recipients of Great Patriotic War orders (not medals). They've got scans of hand-written citations. It actually says there what this or that order was given for.

    I remember reading that the raw data of the 1897 census of the Russian Empire only survived for one or two governorates. Outside of those, only officially published summaries are available, and those are useless for genealogy.

    I think that within the Russian empire the recording of all births started much later. I’m assuming the 19th century, though I don’t know for sure.

    They have regular censuses (ревизии) since Peter I. I have an acquaintance who could have dug down as long ago as the end of the 17th century. And they weren’t nobility, just mere peasants. Though you won’t know much from those censuses, just names, age, family, and some other basic info.

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  • @Glossy
    Anatoly has said that his parents are scientists. Lots of scientists of many backgrounds, including ethnic Russians, left the former USSR in the 1990s to work at Western universities. This was because the Yeltsin-oligarchic regime didn't pay them salaries and didn't care about science.

    One of my childhood friends was an ethnically-Russian son of biologists who ended up in the West for this reason.

    I think Nina "Byzantina" of Twitter fame is of that background too.

    Anatoly has said that his parents are scientists.

    But as it always happened in the Soviet wonderland a great deal of scientists were Jews (surpirsing for a country with “state anti-Semitism”, heh). So I have had some justification for my suspicion. Though as I said a quarter of emigres must be indeed Russians. Most didn’t emigrate, though, even because of Yeltsin. So people mostly hear names like Brin or Geim, just to name few.

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  • @German_reader
    I thought Denisovan DNA turned up only in some Asian populations like Tibetans, not in Russians...and some Neanderthal ancestry is found in all non-Africans, isn't it?
    But then I don't really understand how those DNA tests work anyway and how they come up with those percentages (don't intend to take one myself anyway).

    I had been led to believe that White Europeans and East Asians were meant to have 2-5% Neanderthal ancestry. I had been led to believe that DNA tests could show this as well as Denisovan ancestry. If they can’t, then the tests aren’t very effective.
    This is one reason I’m not going to take the test.
    Also, AK is categorised as being 0.2% East Asian and <0.1% Oceanic ( Aborigine ? Ainu ? ). If they can't categorise his Neanderthal ancestry, how are they likely to be right on this ?

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  • I actually thought you were 1/4 laz, so I was confused why you didn’t substitute georgian in for kebab. But does dagestani really count for kebab, since they themselves have high amounts of northern euro descent and distinct caucasian component from the middle eastern component? I mean, even on the 23 and me only part of that ancestry gets mapped to middle eastern.

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  • I haven’t taken the test and it’s unlikely I’ll do it just for a reason that all my paternal ancestors came from a region which have one of the highest proportion of R1a, so the likeliest chance I have it either. Unlikely I will know something new with a test. Do we turn out to be distant relatives then, he? VERY distant, though.

    Just a side note. We have had a lot of arguments and we’ve trolled each other a lot and I disagree with you in about half of things, but I have always had a positive view on you, otherwise I wouldn’t read and comment. So you would be wrong if you thought I’m your adversary or even enemy. I just like arguing just for the fun of it.

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    23andme isn't just ancestry, it gives health reports as well (or did: The FDA decided peons couldn't be trusted with it and told 23andme to stop doing it. Though as I recall that decision has recently been reversed).

    Anyhow, the people who had 23andme done before that ruling kept their health reports, and I have to say their assessments are actually remarkably accurate and correlate to what we know of family medical history very well.

    Thank you for clarifying your intentions. Realistically speaking, it is impossible for any minimally independent-minded person to find someone they agree with 100% or even close. The best we can do is triangulate.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Boris N
    I must admit I was mistaken about your name. I didn't dig deep enough, just looked in a couple of places including Wikipedia and a dictionary (https://books.google.com/books?id=vG7MZ9J6dAgC&q=Karlin), and that was enough for me to put two and two together. It indeed sounds too suspicious and too non-Russian, and coupled with your name it is not too hard to suggest your Jewish origin. Moreover, the fact that you emigrated in the 1990s make it even more suspicious: I would not exaggerate to say that half of Soviet and post-Soviet emigrants are in fact Jews, a quarter are Volksdeutsche, Poles, Ukrainians, Armenians, and who not, and maybe only a quarter or less are really Russians.

    However, I was just recently looking through a WWI casualty list and found out enough people with your surname, but Christian Orthodox and sounding quite very well Russian (http://1914.svrt.ru/extsearch.php?surname=Карлин). So it might be that your surname has nothing to do with the village of Karlin, but instead came from some other source. Allegedly it might be a nickname like Karla or Karlya, or a corruption of Kralya, or even Karelin, or whatever. Obviously, your surname is rare, but still exist(ed) among Russians. Of course, if you're really sure, because there were enough baptized Jews in the 19th century, it might just happen too long ago that all the ends are lost.

    As for your maternal side: No wonder you have a Med or Mideastern-like phenotype, and no surprise I misinterpreted it. Though it still would be funny to undergo the "Synagogue test", as suggested above. Or the "Mosque test", for your Lak ancestry, just don't shave for some time for more authenticity. Heck, you have even a full incentive to turn into a real Muslim as a coming back the "roots". Not Nathan, but Anas Ali, hehe?

    Anatoly has said that his parents are scientists. Lots of scientists of many backgrounds, including ethnic Russians, left the former USSR in the 1990s to work at Western universities. This was because the Yeltsin-oligarchic regime didn’t pay them salaries and didn’t care about science.

    One of my childhood friends was an ethnically-Russian son of biologists who ended up in the West for this reason.

    I think Nina “Byzantina” of Twitter fame is of that background too.

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    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Boris N

    Anatoly has said that his parents are scientists.
     
    But as it always happened in the Soviet wonderland a great deal of scientists were Jews (surpirsing for a country with "state anti-Semitism", heh). So I have had some justification for my suspicion. Though as I said a quarter of emigres must be indeed Russians. Most didn't emigrate, though, even because of Yeltsin. So people mostly hear names like Brin or Geim, just to name few.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
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  • As for 23genes or whatever, my personal opinion that all such guys are charlatans who exploit modern frenzy about genetics. I sincerely do not understand how they’ve come up with their methodology and what the amount of data they are using to do their doubtful calculations. I have a suspicion that they just take your Y-hg and mDNA and do their probability calculations. You paid for what you already knew, you knew you have R1a and you knew it is most widespread in Eastern Europe, so the highest probability you came from there, you just did not the exact numbers and those guys just gave it to you, though you still do not know how they’ve come up with it.

    But there are enough criticism about assigning the current DNA distribution to the past or to ethnic groups.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25644-Why-it-is-wrong-to-assume-that-a-haplogroup-originated-where-it-is-most-frequent-now

    P.S. I always thought that a lot of Ashkenazi have R1a, so having it neither proves nor disapproves anything. Just that one of your paternal ancestors (among thousands) sprang up several thousand years ago somewhere in the Middle East (or wherever they put now its origin).

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  • Congrats!

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  • I must admit I was mistaken about your name. I didn’t dig deep enough, just looked in a couple of places including Wikipedia and a dictionary (https://books.google.com/books?id=vG7MZ9J6dAgC&q=Karlin), and that was enough for me to put two and two together. It indeed sounds too suspicious and too non-Russian, and coupled with your name it is not too hard to suggest your Jewish origin. Moreover, the fact that you emigrated in the 1990s make it even more suspicious: I would not exaggerate to say that half of Soviet and post-Soviet emigrants are in fact Jews, a quarter are Volksdeutsche, Poles, Ukrainians, Armenians, and who not, and maybe only a quarter or less are really Russians.

    However, I was just recently looking through a WWI casualty list and found out enough people with your surname, but Christian Orthodox and sounding quite very well Russian (http://1914.svrt.ru/extsearch.php?surname=Карлин). So it might be that your surname has nothing to do with the village of Karlin, but instead came from some other source. Allegedly it might be a nickname like Karla or Karlya, or a corruption of Kralya, or even Karelin, or whatever. Obviously, your surname is rare, but still exist(ed) among Russians. Of course, if you’re really sure, because there were enough baptized Jews in the 19th century, it might just happen too long ago that all the ends are lost.

    As for your maternal side: No wonder you have a Med or Mideastern-like phenotype, and no surprise I misinterpreted it. Though it still would be funny to undergo the “Synagogue test”, as suggested above. Or the “Mosque test”, for your Lak ancestry, just don’t shave for some time for more authenticity. Heck, you have even a full incentive to turn into a real Muslim as a coming back the “roots”. Not Nathan, but Anas Ali, hehe?

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    • Replies: @Glossy
    Anatoly has said that his parents are scientists. Lots of scientists of many backgrounds, including ethnic Russians, left the former USSR in the 1990s to work at Western universities. This was because the Yeltsin-oligarchic regime didn't pay them salaries and didn't care about science.

    One of my childhood friends was an ethnically-Russian son of biologists who ended up in the West for this reason.

    I think Nina "Byzantina" of Twitter fame is of that background too.
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  • @Verymuchalive
    If I were Russian and 23andme didn't give me my Neanderthal and Denisovan percentages,
    I'd want my money back. Anatoly is obviously a very easily contented boy.

    AK: Yes this doesn't mean any sense. Neanderthal/Denisovan ancestry is separate from ancestry composition. Neanderthal results are rarely very interesting. Eurasians (and Australasians) mixed with them in the Near East around 60,000 years ago on leaving Africa, and consequently mixed little with them afterwards, so the percentages are similar from Europe to China and the Australian aborigines. My own Neanderthal results are absolutely average for Eurasians.

    I thought Denisovan DNA turned up only in some Asian populations like Tibetans, not in Russians…and some Neanderthal ancestry is found in all non-Africans, isn’t it?
    But then I don’t really understand how those DNA tests work anyway and how they come up with those percentages (don’t intend to take one myself anyway).

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    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    I had been led to believe that White Europeans and East Asians were meant to have 2-5% Neanderthal ancestry. I had been led to believe that DNA tests could show this as well as Denisovan ancestry. If they can't, then the tests aren't very effective.
    This is one reason I'm not going to take the test.
    Also, AK is categorised as being 0.2% East Asian and <0.1% Oceanic ( Aborigine ? Ainu ? ). If they can't categorise his Neanderthal ancestry, how are they likely to be right on this ?
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  • @German_reader
    So Dagestanis genetically cluster with the MENA region? Seems counterintuitive to me.
    Anyway, good luck with your genealogical studies, your family history seems to be more interesting than is the case for most people.

    If I were Russian and 23andme didn’t give me my Neanderthal and Denisovan percentages,
    I’d want my money back. Anatoly is obviously a very easily contented boy.

    AK: Yes this doesn’t mean any sense. Neanderthal/Denisovan ancestry is separate from ancestry composition. Neanderthal results are rarely very interesting. Eurasians (and Australasians) mixed with them in the Near East around 60,000 years ago on leaving Africa, and consequently mixed little with them afterwards, so the percentages are similar from Europe to China and the Australian aborigines. My own Neanderthal results are absolutely average for Eurasians.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    I thought Denisovan DNA turned up only in some Asian populations like Tibetans, not in Russians...and some Neanderthal ancestry is found in all non-Africans, isn't it?
    But then I don't really understand how those DNA tests work anyway and how they come up with those percentages (don't intend to take one myself anyway).
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  • So Dagestanis genetically cluster with the MENA region? Seems counterintuitive to me.
    Anyway, good luck with your genealogical studies, your family history seems to be more interesting than is the case for most people.

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    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    If I were Russian and 23andme didn't give me my Neanderthal and Denisovan percentages,
    I'd want my money back. Anatoly is obviously a very easily contented boy.

    AK: Yes this doesn't mean any sense. Neanderthal/Denisovan ancestry is separate from ancestry composition. Neanderthal results are rarely very interesting. Eurasians (and Australasians) mixed with them in the Near East around 60,000 years ago on leaving Africa, and consequently mixed little with them afterwards, so the percentages are similar from Europe to China and the Australian aborigines. My own Neanderthal results are absolutely average for Eurasians.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Since presumably very few Dagestanis get tested by 23andme, I'd assume it struggles to characterize them; hence, presumably, that component being split between "Balkan" 11% + MENA 8% + "Broadly South European" 6% = conveniently round 25%.
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  • @Zenarchy
    Similar combinations like yours are found among Balkan Slavs, though only Slovenes and NW Croats are predominantly R1A Slavs. The non-Slavic part in Balkan Slavs is at least partially a result of Middle-Eastern migrations (and Turkish rape, cough*Serbs*cough: http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/2nd+Annual+Celebrity+Poker+Challenge+Benefiting+9RDlYOAnwOnl.jpg).

    We should, however, not forget that we all probably have some illegitimate ancestry as well. In my case, my father is so dark, that with his pure Slavic ancestry, I'm willing to bet the nearby Roma settlement had something to do with it... (Before you scoff, Roma's ancestors were among the most developed in the world some 5.000 years ago when Slavs' achievements consisted of milking cows and burying chariots.)

    I think that the non-Slavic ancestry in the former Yugoslavia is ancient Illyrian.

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    • Replies: @Zenarchy
    Much of it, yes. Especially in the Western parts of the Balkans (Albanians are the most Illyrian), so probably Dalmatians, Herzegovinians, and Montenegrins. There's definitely ME genetics there as well, though.
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  • @Verymuchalive
    Carlin can also be an Irish or Scottish name. As is well known, there were considerable numbers of Scots in 17th and 18th Century Russia, often in prominent positions. Good luck with your researches !

    I was rather hoping that AK was going to reveal his Tatar ancestry, but not to be. Are Volga and Crimean Tatars distinguishable from their Slavic neighbours, Mr K ?
    Even if you are a ( Quarter ) Kebab Boy, you have a very sensible view of Muslims and their relations with Russia. You don’t think like the Saker who absurdly regards Muslims as natural supporters of Russia.
    Lastly, I had always thought that, like the Saker, Anatoly Karlin was a pseudonym. Humblest apologies.

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  • @iffen
    Diversity is our strength

    Depends on the "our."

    Depends on the “our.”

    And the hour.

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  • @Zenarchy
    Similar combinations like yours are found among Balkan Slavs, though only Slovenes and NW Croats are predominantly R1A Slavs. The non-Slavic part in Balkan Slavs is at least partially a result of Middle-Eastern migrations (and Turkish rape, cough*Serbs*cough: http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/2nd+Annual+Celebrity+Poker+Challenge+Benefiting+9RDlYOAnwOnl.jpg).

    We should, however, not forget that we all probably have some illegitimate ancestry as well. In my case, my father is so dark, that with his pure Slavic ancestry, I'm willing to bet the nearby Roma settlement had something to do with it... (Before you scoff, Roma's ancestors were among the most developed in the world some 5.000 years ago when Slavs' achievements consisted of milking cows and burying chariots.)

    We should, however, not forget that we all probably have some illegitimate ancestry as well.

    Always the possibility of a non-cau in the woodpile at some prior time for everyone. :)

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  • Similar combinations like yours are found among Balkan Slavs, though only Slovenes and NW Croats are predominantly R1A Slavs. The non-Slavic part in Balkan Slavs is at least partially a result of Middle-Eastern migrations (and Turkish rape, cough*Serbs*cough: http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/2nd+Annual+Celebrity+Poker+Challenge+Benefiting+9RDlYOAnwOnl.jpg).

    We should, however, not forget that we all probably have some illegitimate ancestry as well. In my case, my father is so dark, that with his pure Slavic ancestry, I’m willing to bet the nearby Roma settlement had something to do with it… (Before you scoff, Roma’s ancestors were among the most developed in the world some 5.000 years ago when Slavs’ achievements consisted of milking cows and burying chariots.)

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    • Replies: @iffen
    We should, however, not forget that we all probably have some illegitimate ancestry as well.

    Always the possibility of a non-cau in the woodpile at some prior time for everyone. :)
    , @Glossy
    I think that the non-Slavic ancestry in the former Yugoslavia is ancient Illyrian.
    , @BB753
    When judging the exoticism of some individual from some other ethnic group, it's helpful to ask somebody from said ethnic group. In this case, Divac might look unusual for a Serb to a foreigner, but perhaps not to another Serb.
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  • @Max Payne

    Despite Karlin’s Judaic connotations, I have been unable to identify any Jewish ancestors there, and 23andme confirmed it.
     
    At least you're clean. I still believe Robert Mcnamara to be the closest personality I can associate you with; while he wasn't Jewish he was a numbers man.

    Chances are you're still Jewish. My reasoning is obvious...

    Just go to your local synagogue and pretend you're Jewish. If doors to greater opportunities open up easily chances are you might be a son of Abraham. Get me a job if you can. Good money in that department.

    ” Good money in that department.”
    Morris Dees has been using this ploy for decades to very lucrative effect.

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  • @Richard S
    More like 9/10 spuds, 1/10 humus?

    I know that from a Western perspective, "Diversity is our strength" is a demonstrable lie. But in Russian context there might be something to do that das stärkere Ostvolk who really are the most Darwinian selected Tough Guys in the world. That you guys are also world leaders in symphonic music, literature, philosophy, computer science, metallurgy and rocketry etc etc is really something your weaker, stupider enemies should keep in mind. Славься Отечество!

    Diversity is our strength

    Depends on the “our.”

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    • Replies: @iffen
    Depends on the “our.”

    And the hour.
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  • More like 9/10 spuds, 1/10 humus?

    I know that from a Western perspective, “Diversity is our strength” is a demonstrable lie. But in Russian context there might be something to do that das stärkere Ostvolk who really are the most Darwinian selected Tough Guys in the world. That you guys are also world leaders in symphonic music, literature, philosophy, computer science, metallurgy and rocketry etc etc is really something your weaker, stupider enemies should keep in mind. Славься Отечество!

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    • Replies: @iffen
    Diversity is our strength

    Depends on the "our."
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Despite Karlin’s Judaic connotations, I have been unable to identify any Jewish ancestors there, and 23andme confirmed it.

    At least you’re clean. I still believe Robert Mcnamara to be the closest personality I can associate you with; while he wasn’t Jewish he was a numbers man.

    Chances are you’re still Jewish. My reasoning is obvious…

    Just go to your local synagogue and pretend you’re Jewish. If doors to greater opportunities open up easily chances are you might be a son of Abraham. Get me a job if you can. Good money in that department.

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    • LOL: iffen
    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    " Good money in that department."
    Morris Dees has been using this ploy for decades to very lucrative effect.
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  • Carlin can also be an Irish or Scottish name. As is well known, there were considerable numbers of Scots in 17th and 18th Century Russia, often in prominent positions. Good luck with your researches !

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    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    I was rather hoping that AK was going to reveal his Tatar ancestry, but not to be. Are Volga and Crimean Tatars distinguishable from their Slavic neighbours, Mr K ?
    Even if you are a ( Quarter ) Kebab Boy, you have a very sensible view of Muslims and their relations with Russia. You don't think like the Saker who absurdly regards Muslims as natural supporters of Russia.
    Lastly, I had always thought that, like the Saker, Anatoly Karlin was a pseudonym. Humblest apologies.
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  • So, your mom has some Northeastern Caucasian ancestry, like Yelena Isinbayeva.

    What type of mitochondrial DNA do you have?

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  • The Mormons, familysearch.org, has a tree maker for free. I haven’t used it but the one they had for years before this one was great. I haven’t found anything wrong with ancestry.com, but there is the yearly fee. Whatever you chose make sure that it will export to a gedcom file. This is the standard and has been forever.

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  • I think that in Western Europe all births were recorded starting in the 16th century. So you could probably trace your Italian side really, really far back.

    I think that within the Russian empire the recording of all births started much later. I’m assuming the 19th century, though I don’t know for sure.

    Even though Jews had high literacy, they didn’t use it to record any of this. So the earliest ancestors of mine that I’m aware of are two great-great-grandparents who were probably born in the 1840s or 1850s. And this is only because a cousin of my mom’s spent some time researching this.

    I know so little about my ancestry that I’ve never needed software. Instead I have a standard-sized piece of printer paper on which I drew a tree, and which I put in a photo album.

    I’ve seen a database of the recipients of Great Patriotic War orders (not medals). They’ve got scans of hand-written citations. It actually says there what this or that order was given for.

    I remember reading that the raw data of the 1897 census of the Russian Empire only survived for one or two governorates. Outside of those, only officially published summaries are available, and those are useless for genealogy.

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    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Boris N

    I think that within the Russian empire the recording of all births started much later. I’m assuming the 19th century, though I don’t know for sure.
     
    They have regular censuses (ревизии) since Peter I. I have an acquaintance who could have dug down as long ago as the end of the 17th century. And they weren't nobility, just mere peasants. Though you won't know much from those censuses, just names, age, family, and some other basic info.
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  • I am interested in what happened to your ancestors in WW2, how many died during the war, did any ever end up in the Gulags. And a really thorny question, was the topic of the mass rapes in Germany ever raised by those that fought in the frontlines ?

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  • My earlier entry (Clannishness – the Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain) established that there are deep distinctions between Northwestern European peoples and most of the rest of the world, and that these differences have a huge impact on the world, including on levels of human development, the strength of democracy and democratic institutions, scientific...
  • @Anonymous
    LOL. You can't hack it, can ya, J-Bob? You cannot abide any questioning of your cant. You're tracking the Razib Khan path outahere, and nobody is going to miss you a bit. Nobody wants to read solipsistic shinola that some nabob regards as incontestable religious articles of faith.

    Hey, your worship, go get published in a legitimate scientific publication. That'll stroke your needy ego. Awwww...do you have to put up with unwashed, uneducated Doubting Thomases? Welcome to the world of publishing, Jack! Go be a jerk among among those you fancy to be your peers -- if only!

    LOL. You can’t hack it, can ya, J-Bob? You cannot abide any questioning of your cant.

    There’s intelligent questioning and then there is stupid questioning. Unfortunately, most of the questioning is the latter.

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  • JayMan, so good to see you back! The thought that you, HBD Chick, and Peter Frost had all stopped blogging was so disheartening. Fatherhood must be exhausting. Hope you’ll be doing lots of blogging in the New Year!

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  • @Mao Cheng Ji

    If you take something as simple the prevalent depression gene in Southern Chinese, it highly leads to implications of why the rice-growing regions in China are more collectivistic.
     
    This sounds like word salad. To begin with, there's no such thing as a "depression gene". In addition, "it highly leads to implications" and "more collectivistic" are completely meaningless combinations of words.

    You tore this Daniel cheenk a new one, lol!

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    My ability to care about what Africans or Martians do to each other borders between none to little. I'm not sure why I should, either, until I want the day for someone to impose their universalist attitudes upon me and declare that all pronouns must be zher.

    As far as I can hold as an universal moral philosophy, by allowing multiple forms of society to exist, it creates a diversity of societies which is worth preserved in the same way that animal biodiversity is worth preserving, as opposed to, for example, unleashing the European rabbit everywhere. For all I know, Africans doing horrible things to other Africans might result in a better society for them thirty generations from now.

    I'll let you have the last word here but perhaps because of how I am, I really don't care much for what other people do to each other, so as long as it doesn't affect me or my family. I rather like the idea of being able to just exit from any society I find too annoying, and find one where I belong to better.

    Unfortunately globalization have this ability to increase this moral concernments, at least among some people, unfortunately because instead less things to think/to care we have a multiplication of it. If i had in very bad place and some out-people decide save me and my people i would be eternally grateful and i will try to retribute this enormous help in all ways my possibilities can touch.

    Different from you i little care about my own family, maybe more about my mother, my father is extremely stubborn ( extremely stubborn people, you need leave them live their own ignorance in peace) and my older brothers follow him and they tend to be very stupid in their own ways, the middle brother is a incurable and very silly leftist, my older brother is the classical ”red-pilled”/libertarian-tard, nonexistent emotional intelligence and too much polymath syndrome. Because i’m very different than my other relatives i find very little similarities, strong enough to connect myself with them but i believe even i was very similar i would not change my universalistic point of views if this is just the truth of moral facts.

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  • @Santoculto
    Wow. Rude you isn't??

    I agree about force people to do what they don't want to do is at priori waste of time BUT I also disagree because MOST of people are intellectually hopeless AND like it or not there are universally morally correct things MOST don't want understand by pure immaturity/stupidity. Yes priests being forced to celebrate marriage of two people of same sex is a separated and negotiable thing.

    But we have some attitudes that are essentially/universally wrong

    Do you want that African teens have their clitoris removed BECAUSE you don't care what other people do??

    As ALWAYS....

    There are cases and cases

    My ability to care about what Africans or Martians do to each other borders between none to little. I’m not sure why I should, either, until I want the day for someone to impose their universalist attitudes upon me and declare that all pronouns must be zher.

    As far as I can hold as an universal moral philosophy, by allowing multiple forms of society to exist, it creates a diversity of societies which is worth preserved in the same way that animal biodiversity is worth preserving, as opposed to, for example, unleashing the European rabbit everywhere. For all I know, Africans doing horrible things to other Africans might result in a better society for them thirty generations from now.

    I’ll let you have the last word here but perhaps because of how I am, I really don’t care much for what other people do to each other, so as long as it doesn’t affect me or my family. I rather like the idea of being able to just exit from any society I find too annoying, and find one where I belong to better.

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Unfortunately globalization have this ability to increase this moral concernments, at least among some people, unfortunately because instead less things to think/to care we have a multiplication of it. If i had in very bad place and some out-people decide save me and my people i would be eternally grateful and i will try to retribute this enormous help in all ways my possibilities can touch.

    Different from you i little care about my own family, maybe more about my mother, my father is extremely stubborn ( extremely stubborn people, you need leave them live their own ignorance in peace) and my older brothers follow him and they tend to be very stupid in their own ways, the middle brother is a incurable and very silly leftist, my older brother is the classical ''red-pilled''/libertarian-tard, nonexistent emotional intelligence and too much polymath syndrome. Because i'm very different than my other relatives i find very little similarities, strong enough to connect myself with them but i believe even i was very similar i would not change my universalistic point of views if this is just the truth of moral facts.
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  • WEIRD societies are extremely recent phenomenon…

    Before crazy sixties, europeans, out and in Hainal circles were homogeneously conservative: ”homophobic”, ‘racist’, ‘anti-semitic, ”xenophobic”, … what do you think about it Jay*

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  • @Daniel Chieh
    Returning vaguely to the original point and conflating with the link, I believe that there may be another aspect of clannish attitude that isn't quite addressed - for example, I've always been conservative, even reactionary for as long as I can remember on certain aspects. One would argue that in some ways, I should be similar to you in that I would acknowledge how universalist values benefit me; while I can see that, I also extend logically that I've lost much from it and gained in ways that are ultimately meaningless to me.

    When I was younger, for example, I remember affiliating myself with a group composed, as I found out, of almost entirely Deep Southerners(and East Europeans) that has naturally structured themselves into an elite which were mostly descendants of plantation owners and a "redneck" population of former sharecroppers, etc. I worked with them in a role that proved essential for their cause, but made me utterly invisible, such that my successes would be seen and acknowledged by almost no one. And yes, even at the time, I had wondered why something as neutral as a gaming group seemed to had segregated itself along geographic lines. Our rivals used a faux democratic structure and clearly North American/West European, incidentally.

    Its probably the happiest that I've ever been in my life. Ironic, given that it might seem to be working to marginalize myself.

    But nothing else later that I can think of has quite matched up to the feeling of togetherness in a tight-knit, ordered group with a sense of history and defiance. I've since become much more "successful" as an individual, but none of it feels really all that meaningful.

    I wonder if lack of clannishness is affiliated with a greater sense of "self-interest" in a way that individual gains are more meaningful. I've never particularly cared, for example, for my own personal survival - my culture has often taught suicide as a way to redeem from familial shame, for example, and so as long as the larger form of my family endures, focusing on the brief life of an individual seems almost silly.

    I wonder if lack of clannishness is affiliated with a greater sense of “self-interest” in a way that individual gains are more meaningful.

    In atomized, more WEIRD societies, being more individualistic means that credit or shame is more associated with the self than with the family.

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  • @JayMan

    My issue is just that overt normalization of homosexuality has brought a host of other ridiculous concepts as norms, and served ultimately to signal traditional masculinity as something negative.
     
    I wouldn't say acceptance of homosexuality is a cause of such things than a facet of a larger phenomenon. See:

    The Rise of Universalism

    By the way, let me put the brakes on this talk of homosexuality on this post. It's straying too off-topic.

    Returning vaguely to the original point and conflating with the link, I believe that there may be another aspect of clannish attitude that isn’t quite addressed – for example, I’ve always been conservative, even reactionary for as long as I can remember on certain aspects. One would argue that in some ways, I should be similar to you in that I would acknowledge how universalist values benefit me; while I can see that, I also extend logically that I’ve lost much from it and gained in ways that are ultimately meaningless to me.

    When I was younger, for example, I remember affiliating myself with a group composed, as I found out, of almost entirely Deep Southerners(and East Europeans) that has naturally structured themselves into an elite which were mostly descendants of plantation owners and a “redneck” population of former sharecroppers, etc. I worked with them in a role that proved essential for their cause, but made me utterly invisible, such that my successes would be seen and acknowledged by almost no one. And yes, even at the time, I had wondered why something as neutral as a gaming group seemed to had segregated itself along geographic lines. Our rivals used a faux democratic structure and clearly North American/West European, incidentally.

    Its probably the happiest that I’ve ever been in my life. Ironic, given that it might seem to be working to marginalize myself.

    But nothing else later that I can think of has quite matched up to the feeling of togetherness in a tight-knit, ordered group with a sense of history and defiance. I’ve since become much more “successful” as an individual, but none of it feels really all that meaningful.

    I wonder if lack of clannishness is affiliated with a greater sense of “self-interest” in a way that individual gains are more meaningful. I’ve never particularly cared, for example, for my own personal survival – my culture has often taught suicide as a way to redeem from familial shame, for example, and so as long as the larger form of my family endures, focusing on the brief life of an individual seems almost silly.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    I wonder if lack of clannishness is affiliated with a greater sense of “self-interest” in a way that individual gains are more meaningful.
     
    In atomized, more WEIRD societies, being more individualistic means that credit or shame is more associated with the self than with the family.
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  • @Daniel Chieh
    My issue is just that overt normalization of homosexuality has brought a host of other ridiculous concepts as norms, and served ultimately to signal traditional masculinity as something negative. I really don't care if homosexuals had a satellite state or whatever, I just don't feel a particular need to force bakeries to make cakes for same-sex marriages, be certain that the women I'm with are actually biologically born women, and be allowed to make snide remarks about people within my state.

    I like Peter Thiel and all, but I don't feel a need to praise people for who they choose to boff. Nor do I think they need special protections against people who might say bad things.

    I wouldn't care if people wanted to exclude me for my ethnicity from certain regions, I mean, and I don't demand women who don't like Asians to like me or be considered a bigot.

    Thanks to traditional masculinity wars has happened..

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