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    In an 11-part series exclusive to Byline, Norman Finkelstein subjected Amnesty International’s reports on Operation Protective Edge, Israel’s summer 2014 assault on the Gaza Strip, to a forensic critique. But why is it important to keep organizations like Amnesty honest? Jamie Stern-Weiner, who is co-authoring a forthcoming book, HOW TO SOLVE THE ISRAEL-PALESTINE CONFLICT, with...
  • Counting Jewish Lobby’s victims for telling truth about Israel’s human rights abuses in Occupied Palestine – no one can beat the eight-year vicious campaign against former UNHRC special envoy, professor Richard Falk.

    One must give credit to Dr. Falk for standing up to his Jewish moral conscience while other members of his Tribe like Judge Richard Goldstone and others gave in under pressure from the US, UK, and other Israel’s stooges at the UNHRC.

    In March 2014, US ambassador at the United Nations, Samantha Power (married to a Zionist Jewish professor), welcomed the departure of the UNHRC’s envoy for Palestinian territories, professor Richard Falk (Jewish), by the end of the next month. Both Tel Aviv and Washington have accused Dr. Falk of being biased against the Zionist entity and questioning the “official 9/11 story”.

    Last week Dr. Falk during a news conference said that Israeli policies bore “unacceptable characteristics of colonialism, apartheid and ethnic cleansing“.

    In response to Falk’s latest ‘antisemitic remarks’, Samantha Powers condemned “Falk’s relentless anti-Israeli bias, his noxious and outrageous perpetuation of 9/11 conspiracy theories.”

    “His publication of bizarre and insulting material has tarnished the U.N.’s reputation and undermined the effectiveness of the UN Human Rights Council (UNHRC). The United States welcomes Mr. Falk’s departure, which is long overdue,” Said Power.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/03/26/the-power-happy-over-richard-falks-exit/

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  • ” … my books don’t persuade a broad public, which is perhaps one reason why no one cites them.”

    I cite them in conversation.

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  • The criminal dimensions of OPE can be gleaned from the Breaking the Silence testimonies (see Table 5). TABLE 5 How Israel Fought OPE: A Selection of IDF Testimonies 18* When we left after the operation, it was just a barren stretch of desert…. We spoke about it a lot amongst ourselves, the guys from the...
  • @HdC
    Shooting someone who immediately threatens your life or your family is a well-accepted defense in a court.

    To wit: Britain and France declared war on Germany. The USA waged war (undeclared) on Germany when the USA was officially neutral. The German declaration of war on the USA was merely a formality by then.

    The German invasion of the Soviet Union was a purely defensive action as the Soviets had planned its invasion of all of Europe to commence one month after the German invasion. Read: Icebreaker: Why the Soviet Union Lost WWII. A serious analysis of that meat grinder.

    Yes Germany invaded Poland, for very practical reasons: To stop the murder of German ex-patriates who found themselves in Polish hands after the Diktat of Versailles, and to stop the incessant border incursions by the Poles.

    And just to top things off: Judea Declares War on Germany" screamed the international newspaper headlines in 1933!

    All the foregoing is easily verified by a modicum of internet searches, but is condensed in a book entitled Witness to History.

    And Germany was/is the bad guy??? Riiight.

    HdC

    Wow, you just bought the whole Nazi propaganda line hook line and sinker, didn’t you?

    Let’s entertain the notion that the attack on the USSR was “defensive.”

    How exactly does this justify shooting unarmed women, children, and the elderly?

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  • In an 11-part series exclusive to Byline, Norman Finkelstein subjected Amnesty International’s reports on Operation Protective Edge, Israel’s summer 2014 assault on the Gaza Strip, to a forensic critique. But why is it important to keep organizations like Amnesty honest? Jamie Stern-Weiner, who is co-authoring a forthcoming book, HOW TO SOLVE THE ISRAEL-PALESTINE CONFLICT, with...
  • Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factory"] says: • Website

    http://mondoweiss.net/2015/09/israels-celebrated-knesset

    This is an interesting narrative.

    The Liberal Zionist power in the US like to frame the issue of Israel history/politics as one of decent humane secular Liberal Zionists who founded Israel versus the petty, brutish, and crude Likud right-wingers who won’t compromise with Palestinians. But there is one problem if we dig up history. It was the Israeli ‘left’ of Labor that controlled Israel at its founding and first chapter, and the massive ethnic cleansing happened then.

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  • THE JUDAISTS CONTROLLED GOLDSTONE THE WAY THEY CONTROLLED DR. TOAFF.

    Thanks for the interesting article, Sir. The Judaists probably bribed or blackmailed Goldstone; that is called the carrot or the stick method.

    Well, there are 2 ways to control people—either the carrot (bribe) or the stick (blackmail or threats).

    The Judaists also threatened Dr. Toaff, who was made to recant a book he wrote, called “Bloody Passovers”, in which he showed how Judaists used to engage in human sacrifices and drink the blood of Christian children during Passover, as described here:

    http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Eng11.htm

    That is why you see politicians like Angela Merkel (and other politicians) so slavishly subservient to Jewish interests, that she is willing to destroy her own country by unleashing the alien flood. It is the carrot or the stick.

    Now you know the tactics of the criminal cult.

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  • CONCLUSION It cannot be seriously disputed that Amnesty International’s reports on Operation Protective Edge lacked objectivity and professionalism. They betrayed a systematic anti-Palestinian bias amounting to apologetics on Israel’s behalf. They also marked a steep regression from the high standard Amnesty set in its reports on the Israel-Palestine conflict during the past two decades. Amnesty...
  • It’s amazing how many pro Jewish state agents are peppered throughout all American media and world media. When I write comments which I do very carefully within the approved guidelines they always get thrown out if any of the writing has “Jew, Jewish, or Israel” in it. Have they set all the comment reading robots to react to those words regardless of content? Even when writing fact based comments on NPR (National Propaganda Radio) about the Trump/ Ramos clash my comments were removed! And that’s supposed to be public in the land of freedom of speech, or so they say.

    No doubt crypto Israeli sympathizers have infiltrated Amnesty Int. They have to point the finger a little bit sometimes to create a facade of legitimacy but underneath it all nothing really happens. Just like Human Rights Watch and others.

    Kudos to the Unz Review for allowing open discussion!!!!

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  • @Tom_R
    HOW JUDIASTS CONTROL PEOPLE—THE CARROT AND THE STICK, EXPOSED!

    Thanks for the great article you wrote on this topic with lots of useful information.

    It is interesting that the Jewish lobby is able to muzzle people and make them recant things, like they threatened Judge Goldstone. To that list, I might add Dr. Toaff, who was made to recant a book he wrote, called “Bloody Passovers”, described here:

    http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Eng11.htm

    So how do the Judaists control Goldstone, Dr. Toaff, and Amnesty International?

    Well, there are 2 ways to control people—either the carrot (bribe) or the stick.

    Carrots: For example, US Congress is bribed with campaign contributions by the Jewish lobby.

    Israel is the world leader in money laundering. Not only is the Jewish lobby the biggest campaign contributor (legal amounts), it also pays billions under the table. Most of our politicians and others very likely have secret bank accounts in Israel where millions are deposited in their secret bank accounts once they do the Lobby’s bidding—support Israel and destroy USA with the alien invasion and liberalism. These secret bank accounts are in their Jewish names. For example, Senator John McCain’s Israeli ID and bank account name could be something like Jonah Ben McKenstein. This is based on the fact that slavish support for Israel (a criminal state) and the inhumane and barbaric practice of allowing millions to invade your own country (aka immigration) or imprisoning people for debating the holocaust are so repugnant to civilized behavior, that no civilized person would do such despicable things unless paid millions in bribes.

    Sticks: Some people will not obey the Jewish lobby even when bribed. For them, the Jewish lobby uses the stick method. These stick methods involve defaming people by calling them racists, anti-semite, etc. in the Jewish controlled media, taking them to Israel and taking their secret pics (cameras in vents) with girls sent to their hotel rooms and then blackmailing them, creating bogus scandals, filing phoney cases against them and even framing them and having them criminally prosecuted on bogus charges.

    And if that does not work, Mossad is indeed known to assassinate people too. It is the world’s premier assassin:

    http://www.rense.com/general32/ruth.htm

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/inside-israel-s-secret-wars-mossad-s-elite-kidon-killers/31868

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations

    Now you know the secret to Jewish power and influence.

    You forgot to mention the very jewish national victim cult scheme labeled “diversity”.

    Diversity is an ultra-large scale vote buying scheme, among other things.

    The jewish diversity scheme conditions victim cult people to trade votes for undue privileges offered by totalitarian democratic government.

    Victim cultists are people that do not match the jewish concocted profile of a Nazi – white supremacist….

    [MORE]

    white
    male
    gentile
    straight
    healthy
    non-hispanic
    armed civilian
    occidental
    paleface
    christian

    Both the US and Israel are dominated by this jewish political scheme.

    Over 85% of the voting population of the US and Israel are victim cultists….

    afro
    female
    jewish
    queer
    disabled
    latino
    veteran
    asian
    native
    muslim

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • It’s great that you have a column here Norman. I have several of your books.

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  • @OutWest
    Actually the Earth isn’t flat or oblong. It’s not round either. It’s obwide, i.e. bigger at the equator. And you’ve just witnessed the birth of a new word –I think (and so does spellcheck).

    My spellcheck recognizes oblate spheroid.

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  • Any faith in Amnesty International to do the right thing is misplaced. I’d asked (several times) to meet with a representative and was stonewalled; apparently because of the ‘quality’ of the enemies I’d made.

    http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2013/05/04/death-of-a-mossad-agent/

    ^ Following this experience (and more), I’d made a request with the initial answer:

    Dear Ron

    Thank you for your e-mail. You can write to the International Secretariat on the following address:

    [email protected]

    Regards

    The Communications Team

    Sent by: [email protected]
    25/04/2008 10:44

    Shortly after (29 April 2008) this follows was included in information copied to amnesty:

    As recently as three weeks ago my knit hat captured (where it was rolled up, back of my head) what appears to be a small glass paintball I suspect filled with a nerve agent (I heard it launched, small but clear metallic ‘ting’ sound), by this time I had shut down (I used it to play games) their atm card tracking and had recently also shut down my usa t-mobile cell which had been patched direct to the USA network bypassing the german network (no longer showing “t-mobile D” and no longer requiring access password to voicemail, working just as though I were in the usa)

    Who’d I upset? Among other people (my work was in anti-corruption) the Chevron board of directors and their darling Condoleezza Rice, when breaking into a criminal ring in government doing Chevron the favor of counterfeiting compliance to law in applications for permits to drill on public lands, here is the full story:

    http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/02/24/the-alpha-chronology/

    Even knowing (personal acquaintance) a former director of Amnesty International Washington DC office, James O’Dea, was not helpful, he stonewalled me as well:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O’Dea_%28activist%29

    It was after I’d discovered the work of Frances Boyle:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Boyle

    I began looking into intelligence agency penetration of Amnesty International; and formally withdrew my request for a meeting in 2011.

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  • Actually the Earth isn’t flat or oblong. It’s not round either. It’s obwide, i.e. bigger at the equator. And you’ve just witnessed the birth of a new word –I think (and so does spellcheck).

    Read More
    • Replies: @J Yan
    My spellcheck recognizes oblate spheroid.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • HOW JUDIASTS CONTROL PEOPLE—THE CARROT AND THE STICK, EXPOSED!

    Thanks for the great article you wrote on this topic with lots of useful information.

    It is interesting that the Jewish lobby is able to muzzle people and make them recant things, like they threatened Judge Goldstone. To that list, I might add Dr. Toaff, who was made to recant a book he wrote, called “Bloody Passovers”, described here:

    http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Eng11.htm

    So how do the Judaists control Goldstone, Dr. Toaff, and Amnesty International?

    Well, there are 2 ways to control people—either the carrot (bribe) or the stick.

    Carrots: For example, US Congress is bribed with campaign contributions by the Jewish lobby.

    Israel is the world leader in money laundering. Not only is the Jewish lobby the biggest campaign contributor (legal amounts), it also pays billions under the table. Most of our politicians and others very likely have secret bank accounts in Israel where millions are deposited in their secret bank accounts once they do the Lobby’s bidding—support Israel and destroy USA with the alien invasion and liberalism. These secret bank accounts are in their Jewish names. For example, Senator John McCain’s Israeli ID and bank account name could be something like Jonah Ben McKenstein. This is based on the fact that slavish support for Israel (a criminal state) and the inhumane and barbaric practice of allowing millions to invade your own country (aka immigration) or imprisoning people for debating the holocaust are so repugnant to civilized behavior, that no civilized person would do such despicable things unless paid millions in bribes.

    Sticks: Some people will not obey the Jewish lobby even when bribed. For them, the Jewish lobby uses the stick method. These stick methods involve defaming people by calling them racists, anti-semite, etc. in the Jewish controlled media, taking them to Israel and taking their secret pics (cameras in vents) with girls sent to their hotel rooms and then blackmailing them, creating bogus scandals, filing phoney cases against them and even framing them and having them criminally prosecuted on bogus charges.

    And if that does not work, Mossad is indeed known to assassinate people too. It is the world’s premier assassin:

    http://www.rense.com/general32/ruth.htm

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/inside-israel-s-secret-wars-mossad-s-elite-kidon-killers/31868

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations

    Now you know the secret to Jewish power and influence.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Franklin
    You forgot to mention the very jewish national victim cult scheme labeled "diversity".

    Diversity is an ultra-large scale vote buying scheme, among other things.

    The jewish diversity scheme conditions victim cult people to trade votes for undue privileges offered by totalitarian democratic government.

    Victim cultists are people that do not match the jewish concocted profile of a Nazi - white supremacist....


    white
    male
    gentile
    straight
    healthy
    non-hispanic
    armed civilian
    occidental
    paleface
    christian

    Both the US and Israel are dominated by this jewish political scheme.

    Over 85% of the voting population of the US and Israel are victim cultists....

    afro
    female
    jewish
    queer
    disabled
    latino
    veteran
    asian
    native
    muslim
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Failure to Take All Feasible Precautions International humanitarian law obliges all parties to a conflict to take “all feasible” precautions/precautions “to the maximum feasible extent” in order “to protect civilians and civilian objects under their control against the dangers resulting from military operations.” One example is to “avoid locating military objectives within or near densely...
  • The view I’ve put forth here is a summary form of the positions on the conflict held all across western academia. Eat your heart out.

    Read More
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  • There’s really no point discussing anything as long as this fundamental fact goes unacknowledged.

    Since it’s not a “fundamental fact” at all as long as you’re gonna take that tack the only people who’ll take you seriously are in the tiny choir you’re preaching to.

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    • Disagree: SolontoCroesus
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @tsotha

    What’s the problem here? Am I missing something? It’s as if Israel is so technologically omnipotent it can make gestures of resistance seem meaningless. Fruitless. A non-issue even.
     
    This Israelis have never claimed Iron Dome is 100%. In fact, the system depends on the current situation in the sense that 90% of the Hamas rockets are going to miss populated areas. The IDF can only afford to shoot down the ones that are actually going to hit a city. In that sense it's a temporary solution - as Hamas gets better at building rockets and/or is able to import higher quality rockets the effectiveness of the system goes down dramatically.

    I don't see any problem with invasions to stop rocket fire. Clearly they're not as brutal as the Palestinians would have you believe, or they wouldn't invite more with rocket fire. What's really going on here is Hamas is a reasonably competent paramilitary organization that's terrible at government. If they don't keep the conflict with Israel on a steady boil the people will get rid of them.

    I don’t see any problem with invasions to stop rocket fire.

    Of course you don’t. This wilful blindness allows you to keep tightening the very noose that is responsible for the rocket fire in the first place. Quite simply, Israel has never demonstrated the slightest willingness to treat fairly with Palestinians. Quite the contrary: it has always been intent on brutalising and dispossessing them at every opportunity, starting from day one of the Zionist presence. There’s really no point discussing anything as long as this fundamental fact goes unacknowledged.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    just to add a caveat to the current disccution.

    the united states payed for israeli weapons companies to develop and produce it

    all current iron dome batteries have been payed for in full by the united states.

    every interceptor cost 20,000$ paid for by the united states.

    a few years ago, idf soldiers forgot to secure the interceptors on a transport truck, and damaged and destroyed several dozen.

    no problems though cause uncle sam will foot the bill

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  • What’s the problem here? Am I missing something? It’s as if Israel is so technologically omnipotent it can make gestures of resistance seem meaningless. Fruitless. A non-issue even.

    This Israelis have never claimed Iron Dome is 100%. In fact, the system depends on the current situation in the sense that 90% of the Hamas rockets are going to miss populated areas. The IDF can only afford to shoot down the ones that are actually going to hit a city. In that sense it’s a temporary solution – as Hamas gets better at building rockets and/or is able to import higher quality rockets the effectiveness of the system goes down dramatically.

    I don’t see any problem with invasions to stop rocket fire. Clearly they’re not as brutal as the Palestinians would have you believe, or they wouldn’t invite more with rocket fire. What’s really going on here is Hamas is a reasonably competent paramilitary organization that’s terrible at government. If they don’t keep the conflict with Israel on a steady boil the people will get rid of them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @silviosilver

    I don’t see any problem with invasions to stop rocket fire.
     
    Of course you don't. This wilful blindness allows you to keep tightening the very noose that is responsible for the rocket fire in the first place. Quite simply, Israel has never demonstrated the slightest willingness to treat fairly with Palestinians. Quite the contrary: it has always been intent on brutalising and dispossessing them at every opportunity, starting from day one of the Zionist presence. There's really no point discussing anything as long as this fundamental fact goes unacknowledged.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art
    "The Israelis have the brains and perhaps the cool objectivity in the right circumstances"

    Zionist Israel has the cool objectivity to murder 2,200 Palestinians 512 of them children.

    Any one who supports these killers is human trash!

    Don’t get mad. I’m overjoyed by the dismissive attitude and desperate cover-ups by people like Wizard of OZ. They make it abundantly clear what moral garbage Zionism is.

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  • @Wizard of Oz
    Obviously most Israelis would like peace above adding to Israeli territory in "Judaea and Samaria" just as most American Jews support the deal with Iran. And most vote against Netanyahu. We should find it easy to be modest in our claims to understand what Netanyahu is up to and why. We know that the almost all absorbing problems of Israeli domestic politics can cause a government with as many really smart people working for it as any (in countries with fewer than 300 million people anyway) can lead to inattention and stupidity of which the unnecessary killing of activists on a boat from Turkey springs to mind.

    How many moves ahead is the Israeli department of Foreign Affairs and PM's office already? What is plan B oncee the Iran deal takes effect, or doesn't? I agree that it might not be beyond possibility to buy an ageing Hamas leadership, or merely ambitious younger more flexible aspirant leaders, and suddenly have Gaza heading enthusiatically for Hong Kong or Singapore or merely Cyprus status (don't laugh). The Israelis have the brains and perhaps the cool objectivity in the right circumstances but what do we know about what their best informed politicians think doable having regard to what they know about Gaza and the mad thugs from Russia and elsewhere on the West Bank just for starters????

    “The Israelis have the brains and perhaps the cool objectivity in the right circumstances”

    Zionist Israel has the cool objectivity to murder 2,200 Palestinians 512 of them children.

    Any one who supports these killers is human trash!

    Read More
    • Agree: SolontoCroesus
    • Replies: @silviosilver
    Don't get mad. I'm overjoyed by the dismissive attitude and desperate cover-ups by people like Wizard of OZ. They make it abundantly clear what moral garbage Zionism is.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    How about giving peace a chance ?

    It would not take very long for Israel to sit down with the governing body of Gaza and ink out a deal that puts rocket fire into Israel to bed for a very long time ...if it wanted to.

    Opening up Gaza's border for food , water ,trade, and construction material, all the assorted things one would need to make life livable there, would be welcomed by all of humanity, not just the people of Gaza.

    Assurances against weaponry of any sort, could be maintained at all the access points, without a very heavy hand.

    Mr Netanyahu is always talking about "security"..security !...What greater security could Israel possibly have than formulating and implementing a just resolution to the conflict , once and for all...

    .Having a neighbor you are no longer at war with is the greatest "security" there is.

    Obviously most Israelis would like peace above adding to Israeli territory in “Judaea and Samaria” just as most American Jews support the deal with Iran. And most vote against Netanyahu. We should find it easy to be modest in our claims to understand what Netanyahu is up to and why. We know that the almost all absorbing problems of Israeli domestic politics can cause a government with as many really smart people working for it as any (in countries with fewer than 300 million people anyway) can lead to inattention and stupidity of which the unnecessary killing of activists on a boat from Turkey springs to mind.

    How many moves ahead is the Israeli department of Foreign Affairs and PM’s office already? What is plan B oncee the Iran deal takes effect, or doesn’t? I agree that it might not be beyond possibility to buy an ageing Hamas leadership, or merely ambitious younger more flexible aspirant leaders, and suddenly have Gaza heading enthusiatically for Hong Kong or Singapore or merely Cyprus status (don’t laugh). The Israelis have the brains and perhaps the cool objectivity in the right circumstances but what do we know about what their best informed politicians think doable having regard to what they know about Gaza and the mad thugs from Russia and elsewhere on the West Bank just for starters????

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    "The Israelis have the brains and perhaps the cool objectivity in the right circumstances"

    Zionist Israel has the cool objectivity to murder 2,200 Palestinians 512 of them children.

    Any one who supports these killers is human trash!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Max Payne

    What is the alternative? I ask that in all innocence.
     
    I thought Iron Dome was the alternative. The few (unguided) rockets that actually make it to civilian settlements are just shot right out of the sky. Bang bang.

    What's the problem here? Am I missing something? It's as if Israel is so technologically omnipotent it can make gestures of resistance seem meaningless. Fruitless. A non-issue even.

    Israel can just shoot the rockets out of the sky with ease, report it on the news in a quick statement and move on making Hamas look completely incompetent. Instead Israel does the PR work for Hamas by telling the world how dangerous and capable Hamas is (even though its considered a joke militarily).

    But I think Israel will launch a couple of more wars into Gaza before it tries to take on Hezbollah. That's all Gaza is right now. A test bed for new weapons technology. And if Hamas is made to look too foolish the people in Gaza might actually oust them for being fools.

    Please don’t think I’m claiming much expertise but I did see a large collection of allegedly Hamas rocket remains which were not like mere fireworks in a city within range at the northern end of the Negev. I think its a bit like Saddam Hussein actually wanting people to believe he had WMDs. It possibly suits Israel to boast much greater efficacy for Iron Dome (which, absurdly, I had forgotten) than it is capable of.

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  • @Hugo
    "What is the alternative? I ask that in all innocence."

    No you don't. You have an agenda and its glaringly obvious.

    Well you are obviously very clever. So, unless you are too grand to spell out the obvious for simpler souls (even if you don’t include me) please spell out the essentials at least of the “glaringly obvious agenda” and your reasoning which brings you to your inference.

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  • @Charlesz Martel
    Any fool who thinks that Israel, after giving Gaza back to the goat fucking brigade, is wrong to fight back when rockets are launched from Gaza, is the kind of twerp who thinks letting a third-worlder fuck his wife while he watches is some kind of "cosmic retribution" for the White Man's prior actions. This type of thinking is beyond belief. I suggest Finkelstein get a testicle transplant and become a man.

    I have a technical reason for supposing you were posting till recently on this website using a different name or pseudonymic handle. N’est-ce pas?

    If so would you care to disclose your previous name?

    I don’t anticipate wanting to use the info to bash both your heads though the views of today’s persona ought to guarantee you a good bar brawl :)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Any fool who thinks that Israel, after giving Gaza back to the goat fucking brigade, is wrong to fight back when rockets are launched from Gaza, is the kind of twerp who thinks letting a third-worlder fuck his wife while he watches is some kind of “cosmic retribution” for the White Man’s prior actions. This type of thinking is beyond belief. I suggest Finkelstein get a testicle transplant and become a man.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I have a technical reason for supposing you were posting till recently on this website using a different name or pseudonymic handle. N'est-ce pas?

    If so would you care to disclose your previous name?

    I don't anticipate wanting to use the info to bash both your heads though the views of today's persona ought to guarantee you a good bar brawl :)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Max Payne

    What is the alternative? I ask that in all innocence.
     
    I thought Iron Dome was the alternative. The few (unguided) rockets that actually make it to civilian settlements are just shot right out of the sky. Bang bang.

    What's the problem here? Am I missing something? It's as if Israel is so technologically omnipotent it can make gestures of resistance seem meaningless. Fruitless. A non-issue even.

    Israel can just shoot the rockets out of the sky with ease, report it on the news in a quick statement and move on making Hamas look completely incompetent. Instead Israel does the PR work for Hamas by telling the world how dangerous and capable Hamas is (even though its considered a joke militarily).

    But I think Israel will launch a couple of more wars into Gaza before it tries to take on Hezbollah. That's all Gaza is right now. A test bed for new weapons technology. And if Hamas is made to look too foolish the people in Gaza might actually oust them for being fools.

    How about giving peace a chance ?

    It would not take very long for Israel to sit down with the governing body of Gaza and ink out a deal that puts rocket fire into Israel to bed for a very long time …if it wanted to.

    Opening up Gaza’s border for food , water ,trade, and construction material, all the assorted things one would need to make life livable there, would be welcomed by all of humanity, not just the people of Gaza.

    Assurances against weaponry of any sort, could be maintained at all the access points, without a very heavy hand.

    Mr Netanyahu is always talking about “security”..security !…What greater security could Israel possibly have than formulating and implementing a just resolution to the conflict , once and for all…

    .Having a neighbor you are no longer at war with is the greatest “security” there is.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Obviously most Israelis would like peace above adding to Israeli territory in "Judaea and Samaria" just as most American Jews support the deal with Iran. And most vote against Netanyahu. We should find it easy to be modest in our claims to understand what Netanyahu is up to and why. We know that the almost all absorbing problems of Israeli domestic politics can cause a government with as many really smart people working for it as any (in countries with fewer than 300 million people anyway) can lead to inattention and stupidity of which the unnecessary killing of activists on a boat from Turkey springs to mind.

    How many moves ahead is the Israeli department of Foreign Affairs and PM's office already? What is plan B oncee the Iran deal takes effect, or doesn't? I agree that it might not be beyond possibility to buy an ageing Hamas leadership, or merely ambitious younger more flexible aspirant leaders, and suddenly have Gaza heading enthusiatically for Hong Kong or Singapore or merely Cyprus status (don't laugh). The Israelis have the brains and perhaps the cool objectivity in the right circumstances but what do we know about what their best informed politicians think doable having regard to what they know about Gaza and the mad thugs from Russia and elsewhere on the West Bank just for starters????
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wizard of Oz
    On my only visit to Israel, which was in April-May, I saw no evidence that the IDF would have operated in proximity to civilians in ways which would have endangered them and, on the contrary, was fortified in my view that Norman Finkelstein has mo case on that score by the vast spaces around Gaza that were available for IDF use and were well away from civilians. I say "fortified" because there was no likelihood of Hamas effectively attacking any specific targets in Israel. Their use of rockets for terrorising Israelis (or more likely to provoke IDF attacks which will rebound on Israel in terms of international PR) have nothing in common with IDF tactics in attacking Gazan targets.

    As a matter of common sense Gazan civilians) should make sure (if allowed by Hamas) that they remove themselves by at least 150 metres from anywhere that Hamas fighters are operating or even assembling for action. The IDF should warn them to do so - and I am told does that but can't vouch for it - and should be able to use its advanced targeting technology to ensure that it is only Gazan civilians who have been coerced by Hamas or have behaved with suicidal carelessness that are killed or wounded. Mere numbers killed in Gaza and in Israel don't answer the questions implicit in those comments.

    Does anyone have a problem with the proposition, setting aside the civilian casualty question, that Israel is entitled to respond to Hamas rocket attacks by attempting to kill enough Hamas fighters to make the pain a major deterrent? What is the alternative? I ask that in all innocence. Perhaps a new UN mandate would be some sort of answer until someone killed enough of the troops trying to keep the peace. (Anyone for building a King David Hotel in Gaza to focus attention?)

    What is the alternative? I ask that in all innocence.

    I thought Iron Dome was the alternative. The few (unguided) rockets that actually make it to civilian settlements are just shot right out of the sky. Bang bang.

    What’s the problem here? Am I missing something? It’s as if Israel is so technologically omnipotent it can make gestures of resistance seem meaningless. Fruitless. A non-issue even.

    Israel can just shoot the rockets out of the sky with ease, report it on the news in a quick statement and move on making Hamas look completely incompetent. Instead Israel does the PR work for Hamas by telling the world how dangerous and capable Hamas is (even though its considered a joke militarily).

    But I think Israel will launch a couple of more wars into Gaza before it tries to take on Hezbollah. That’s all Gaza is right now. A test bed for new weapons technology. And if Hamas is made to look too foolish the people in Gaza might actually oust them for being fools.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    How about giving peace a chance ?

    It would not take very long for Israel to sit down with the governing body of Gaza and ink out a deal that puts rocket fire into Israel to bed for a very long time ...if it wanted to.

    Opening up Gaza's border for food , water ,trade, and construction material, all the assorted things one would need to make life livable there, would be welcomed by all of humanity, not just the people of Gaza.

    Assurances against weaponry of any sort, could be maintained at all the access points, without a very heavy hand.

    Mr Netanyahu is always talking about "security"..security !...What greater security could Israel possibly have than formulating and implementing a just resolution to the conflict , once and for all...

    .Having a neighbor you are no longer at war with is the greatest "security" there is.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Please don't think I'm claiming much expertise but I did see a large collection of allegedly Hamas rocket remains which were not like mere fireworks in a city within range at the northern end of the Negev. I think its a bit like Saddam Hussein actually wanting people to believe he had WMDs. It possibly suits Israel to boast much greater efficacy for Iron Dome (which, absurdly, I had forgotten) than it is capable of.
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  • “What is the alternative? I ask that in all innocence.”

    No you don’t. You have an agenda and its glaringly obvious.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Well you are obviously very clever. So, unless you are too grand to spell out the obvious for simpler souls (even if you don't include me) please spell out the essentials at least of the "glaringly obvious agenda" and your reasoning which brings you to your inference.
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  • On my only visit to Israel, which was in April-May, I saw no evidence that the IDF would have operated in proximity to civilians in ways which would have endangered them and, on the contrary, was fortified in my view that Norman Finkelstein has mo case on that score by the vast spaces around Gaza that were available for IDF use and were well away from civilians. I say “fortified” because there was no likelihood of Hamas effectively attacking any specific targets in Israel. Their use of rockets for terrorising Israelis (or more likely to provoke IDF attacks which will rebound on Israel in terms of international PR) have nothing in common with IDF tactics in attacking Gazan targets.

    As a matter of common sense Gazan civilians) should make sure (if allowed by Hamas) that they remove themselves by at least 150 metres from anywhere that Hamas fighters are operating or even assembling for action. The IDF should warn them to do so – and I am told does that but can’t vouch for it – and should be able to use its advanced targeting technology to ensure that it is only Gazan civilians who have been coerced by Hamas or have behaved with suicidal carelessness that are killed or wounded. Mere numbers killed in Gaza and in Israel don’t answer the questions implicit in those comments.

    Does anyone have a problem with the proposition, setting aside the civilian casualty question, that Israel is entitled to respond to Hamas rocket attacks by attempting to kill enough Hamas fighters to make the pain a major deterrent? What is the alternative? I ask that in all innocence. Perhaps a new UN mandate would be some sort of answer until someone killed enough of the troops trying to keep the peace. (Anyone for building a King David Hotel in Gaza to focus attention?)

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    • Replies: @Max Payne

    What is the alternative? I ask that in all innocence.
     
    I thought Iron Dome was the alternative. The few (unguided) rockets that actually make it to civilian settlements are just shot right out of the sky. Bang bang.

    What's the problem here? Am I missing something? It's as if Israel is so technologically omnipotent it can make gestures of resistance seem meaningless. Fruitless. A non-issue even.

    Israel can just shoot the rockets out of the sky with ease, report it on the news in a quick statement and move on making Hamas look completely incompetent. Instead Israel does the PR work for Hamas by telling the world how dangerous and capable Hamas is (even though its considered a joke militarily).

    But I think Israel will launch a couple of more wars into Gaza before it tries to take on Hezbollah. That's all Gaza is right now. A test bed for new weapons technology. And if Hamas is made to look too foolish the people in Gaza might actually oust them for being fools.
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  • The criminal dimensions of OPE can be gleaned from the Breaking the Silence testimonies (see Table 5). TABLE 5 How Israel Fought OPE: A Selection of IDF Testimonies 18* When we left after the operation, it was just a barren stretch of desert…. We spoke about it a lot amongst ourselves, the guys from the...
  • @Jim
    The Israelis are caught in this endless nightmare. But the US needn't ever have gotten involved and we wouldn't have if Truman had followed the advice of people like George Marshall and George Kennan rather than the advice of his political operatives.

    Israel was born at a time when one nation was standing tall and at nation was already bought by Zionist.
    UN General Assembly supported the partition in majority vote but there was no UNSC vote or resolution. The vote was not binding
    The votes were bought ,some by bribes,some under duress some under plain threat. There were even threat to lives of some of the UN dignitaries . India was one of those who was threatened.

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  • @J
    Any judge would dismiss arguments like "they made me do it", "I was led to do it" and so and condemn the physical perpetrator.

    Shooting someone who immediately threatens your life or your family is a well-accepted defense in a court.

    To wit: Britain and France declared war on Germany. The USA waged war (undeclared) on Germany when the USA was officially neutral. The German declaration of war on the USA was merely a formality by then.

    The German invasion of the Soviet Union was a purely defensive action as the Soviets had planned its invasion of all of Europe to commence one month after the German invasion. Read: Icebreaker: Why the Soviet Union Lost WWII. A serious analysis of that meat grinder.

    Yes Germany invaded Poland, for very practical reasons: To stop the murder of German ex-patriates who found themselves in Polish hands after the Diktat of Versailles, and to stop the incessant border incursions by the Poles.

    And just to top things off: Judea Declares War on Germany” screamed the international newspaper headlines in 1933!

    All the foregoing is easily verified by a modicum of internet searches, but is condensed in a book entitled Witness to History.

    And Germany was/is the bad guy??? Riiight.

    HdC

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    • Replies: @Andrew E. Mathis
    Wow, you just bought the whole Nazi propaganda line hook line and sinker, didn't you?

    Let's entertain the notion that the attack on the USSR was "defensive."

    How exactly does this justify shooting unarmed women, children, and the elderly?
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  • Any judge would dismiss arguments like “they made me do it”, “I was led to do it” and so and condemn the physical perpetrator.

    Read More
    • Replies: @HdC
    Shooting someone who immediately threatens your life or your family is a well-accepted defense in a court.

    To wit: Britain and France declared war on Germany. The USA waged war (undeclared) on Germany when the USA was officially neutral. The German declaration of war on the USA was merely a formality by then.

    The German invasion of the Soviet Union was a purely defensive action as the Soviets had planned its invasion of all of Europe to commence one month after the German invasion. Read: Icebreaker: Why the Soviet Union Lost WWII. A serious analysis of that meat grinder.

    Yes Germany invaded Poland, for very practical reasons: To stop the murder of German ex-patriates who found themselves in Polish hands after the Diktat of Versailles, and to stop the incessant border incursions by the Poles.

    And just to top things off: Judea Declares War on Germany" screamed the international newspaper headlines in 1933!

    All the foregoing is easily verified by a modicum of internet searches, but is condensed in a book entitled Witness to History.

    And Germany was/is the bad guy??? Riiight.

    HdC

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  • @J
    You are saying that the Jews themselves exterminated themselves. Or the Levites did it by hand under the orders of Aaron the Priest. I would like to know what Dr Norman Finkelstein thinks about that, after all he is a very talented person and he personally lost all his relatives in Poland in the Holocaust, He must have reflected on it and also about what he is doing.

    It’s a hideous notion, I acknowledge, J.

    It’s not one that I have heard Finkelstein raise, but neither is it something that would have occurred to me ‘in the course of human events.’

    I heard Michael Ledeen make the argument. What was posted above is all based on Ledeen’s claims; Ledeen said that “as a Levite” he is “proud of what Levites did.”

    If the troubles in Germany are explored further and in the objective and logical fashion that historians must use to examine events, the first thing to figure out is a chronology.
    Based on the chronology, one begins to hypothesis who set events in motion: causes must come before effects. Based on the chronology, Jewish leaders worked with FDR and Churchill to insist that a war against Germany take place, and that the USA be involved in that war.

    Hitler did not want war.
    In a video in ~2008, Norman Finkelstein said exactly that: Hitler did not want war.

    In a discussion of his book on Nazi propaganda, Jeffrey Herf was asked by (the late) Carla Cohen, then-owner of Politics & Prose books: “Are you saying that if there had been no war there would have been no final solution?”
    Herf answered, “Yes. No war, no final solution.” http://www.c-span.org/video/?192852-1/book-discussion-jewish-enemy-nazi-propaganda

    It’s logical to state: Hitler did not want war; ergo, Hitler did not want a ‘final solution.’
    Jewish leaders did want war. Ergo, Jewish leaders must have wanted, or at very least understood that at some level that a “final solution” would take place.

    Please point out the flaws in the facts or logic.

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  • J says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Specifically, I consider that after Auschwitz, every Jewish life is precious. Prof. Finkelstein, pathetic a Jew that he is, is my brother.
     
    But before Auschwitz and during Auschwitz, for the Jewish leaders who set in motion the war in Germany, and most especially, who engineered the destruction of Hungarian Jews, Jewish lives were expendable.

    There's even a Torah precedent for the Levites who arranged for the destruction of those Slavic Jews who were deemed inappropriate human material for the new Jew that would populate Palestine:

    Exodus 32:

    Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

    27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”
     
    Isn't it curious that in February 1933 Louis Brandeis directed that "All Jews must leave Germany," and most of them did.
    But German Jews were not threatened. NSDAP actually protected Jews in Germany, and assisted them to leave, with much of their wealth -- and to the detriment of the German economy.

    Polish, Russian and Hungarian Jews were threatened.
    They were also the same groups least desired for migration to Palestine.
    And they were the groups who suffered the greatest deaths.

    Jewish leaders knew that Slavic Jews were the groups threatened; Rabbi Stephen Wise started complaining about "the death of 6 million Russian Jews as early as 1900.

    Why didn't Louis Brandeis direct that those Jews, the ones who were threatened, the "tired, hungry, huddled masses" of Jews be the ones that international Jewry should mobilize to remove from harm's way?

    Instead, they were the ones that the Levites slaughtered, whether by the Jewish sword or that of another.

    One other thing -- it is passing curious that in all the way-too-many holocaust museums in the world, there are no memorials to all those 6 million German Jews who died in Germany as a result of Allied firebombing.

    Ever notice that?

    You are saying that the Jews themselves exterminated themselves. Or the Levites did it by hand under the orders of Aaron the Priest. I would like to know what Dr Norman Finkelstein thinks about that, after all he is a very talented person and he personally lost all his relatives in Poland in the Holocaust, He must have reflected on it and also about what he is doing.

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    It's a hideous notion, I acknowledge, J.

    It's not one that I have heard Finkelstein raise, but neither is it something that would have occurred to me 'in the course of human events.'

    I heard Michael Ledeen make the argument. What was posted above is all based on Ledeen's claims; Ledeen said that "as a Levite" he is "proud of what Levites did."

    If the troubles in Germany are explored further and in the objective and logical fashion that historians must use to examine events, the first thing to figure out is a chronology.
    Based on the chronology, one begins to hypothesis who set events in motion: causes must come before effects. Based on the chronology, Jewish leaders worked with FDR and Churchill to insist that a war against Germany take place, and that the USA be involved in that war.

    Hitler did not want war.
    In a video in ~2008, Norman Finkelstein said exactly that: Hitler did not want war.

    In a discussion of his book on Nazi propaganda, Jeffrey Herf was asked by (the late) Carla Cohen, then-owner of Politics & Prose books: "Are you saying that if there had been no war there would have been no final solution?"
    Herf answered, "Yes. No war, no final solution." http://www.c-span.org/video/?192852-1/book-discussion-jewish-enemy-nazi-propaganda

    It's logical to state: Hitler did not want war; ergo, Hitler did not want a 'final solution.'
    Jewish leaders did want war. Ergo, Jewish leaders must have wanted, or at very least understood that at some level that a "final solution" would take place.

    Please point out the flaws in the facts or logic.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • hi J,

    To answer your first question,Unfortunately,Yes !

    I think that “any” mercenary group, terrorist group or terrorist organization, be it Al Nusra , Al Qeida, the ‘free Syrian army” or ISIS is at work primarily to shatter the territorial integrity of Syria, so Israel can keep , permanently, its coveted Golan heights .

    Israel has never offered to purchase it, has never offered to give it back, and is well aware the UN Security Council has mandated its return to Syria…

    The ONLY way around that “mandate” is if there is no Syria left to return it to !

    The entire “civil war” or “the rolling back of Syria”( has been in the planning stages by Israel, for years),…… and is calibrated NOT to end..but to continue indefinitely until Syria is a burnt and smoldering husk , a collapsed and fragmented state whose territorial borders are eradicated and replaced with a chock o block of regional zones.

    Israels obligation to return the” Golan” vanishes…as Syria vanishes !

    The “names” of these various “terrorist” groups. or their intentions, are for the most part phony, arbitrary and in reality, beside the point…..that point being, the more the merrier, as long as the chopping up, of Syria, proceeds apace.

    It is Israels war, by proxy, for territorial conquest, and the coveted” Golan Heights”, its prize!

    In answer to your second question, I do not believe Israel has “always” wanted to exterminate the people of Gaza,… That Israel has, in fact, been in a tense internal debate for decades about how to resolve the conflict and measured those resolutions against all the prevailing head winds of international law, US support, domestic political “balancing” and its own moral integrity…..

    I do believe at this juncture in time, with King Bibi at the helm, and the extremist and supremacist turn, of the bulk of the governing coalitions , toward War…Israel, today, “covets” Gaza and all its natural resources and would like to remainder “the Seeds of Amalek’ residing there , to the dust bin of History, for all time .

    Its all, quite tragically, about what Bibi can “get away with”.

    And in response to your third point….neither do I,….. and if what you say is true…..
    then we too are bothers…..

    .Brothers in Peace !

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  • @J
    (1) So you think ISIS, the Sunni Caliphate, accepts orders from Jerusalem. That is an Israeli puppet. Hm.
    (2) Israel is deliberately exterminating the population of Gaza. We must be doing a very poor job, because Gaza's population is growing at 3.5% per year. They were 500,000 a generation ago, now they are about 3 million.
    (3) No, I dont wish harm on anybody. Specifically, I consider that after Auschwitz, every Jewish life is precious. Prof. Finkelstein, pathetic a Jew that he is, is my brother.

    Specifically, I consider that after Auschwitz, every Jewish life is precious. Prof. Finkelstein, pathetic a Jew that he is, is my brother.

    But before Auschwitz and during Auschwitz, for the Jewish leaders who set in motion the war in Germany, and most especially, who engineered the destruction of Hungarian Jews, Jewish lives were expendable.

    [MORE]

    There’s even a Torah precedent for the Levites who arranged for the destruction of those Slavic Jews who were deemed inappropriate human material for the new Jew that would populate Palestine:

    Exodus 32:

    Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

    27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

    Isn’t it curious that in February 1933 Louis Brandeis directed that “All Jews must leave Germany,” and most of them did.
    But German Jews were not threatened. NSDAP actually protected Jews in Germany, and assisted them to leave, with much of their wealth — and to the detriment of the German economy.

    Polish, Russian and Hungarian Jews were threatened.
    They were also the same groups least desired for migration to Palestine.
    And they were the groups who suffered the greatest deaths.

    Jewish leaders knew that Slavic Jews were the groups threatened; Rabbi Stephen Wise started complaining about “the death of 6 million Russian Jews as early as 1900.

    Why didn’t Louis Brandeis direct that those Jews, the ones who were threatened, the “tired, hungry, huddled masses” of Jews be the ones that international Jewry should mobilize to remove from harm’s way?

    Instead, they were the ones that the Levites slaughtered, whether by the Jewish sword or that of another.

    One other thing — it is passing curious that in all the way-too-many holocaust museums in the world, there are no memorials to all those 6 million German Jews who died in Germany as a result of Allied firebombing.

    Ever notice that?

    Read More
    • Replies: @J
    You are saying that the Jews themselves exterminated themselves. Or the Levites did it by hand under the orders of Aaron the Priest. I would like to know what Dr Norman Finkelstein thinks about that, after all he is a very talented person and he personally lost all his relatives in Poland in the Holocaust, He must have reflected on it and also about what he is doing.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • J says:
    @alexander
    Perhaps you are suggesting what many may already surmise... that ISIS functions as a terrorist proxy for Israeli extremism and its desire to shatter and destabilize Syria so Israel can keep, forever, the "stolen" Golan heights?

    ... and that if Dr Finkelstein continues to expose Israels OPE for what it "truly "was....the deliberate and brutal extermination of Gaza ....you will send" Israel's" ISIS to punish him?

    (1) So you think ISIS, the Sunni Caliphate, accepts orders from Jerusalem. That is an Israeli puppet. Hm.
    (2) Israel is deliberately exterminating the population of Gaza. We must be doing a very poor job, because Gaza’s population is growing at 3.5% per year. They were 500,000 a generation ago, now they are about 3 million.
    (3) No, I dont wish harm on anybody. Specifically, I consider that after Auschwitz, every Jewish life is precious. Prof. Finkelstein, pathetic a Jew that he is, is my brother.

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    Specifically, I consider that after Auschwitz, every Jewish life is precious. Prof. Finkelstein, pathetic a Jew that he is, is my brother.
     
    But before Auschwitz and during Auschwitz, for the Jewish leaders who set in motion the war in Germany, and most especially, who engineered the destruction of Hungarian Jews, Jewish lives were expendable.

    There's even a Torah precedent for the Levites who arranged for the destruction of those Slavic Jews who were deemed inappropriate human material for the new Jew that would populate Palestine:

    Exodus 32:

    Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

    27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”
     
    Isn't it curious that in February 1933 Louis Brandeis directed that "All Jews must leave Germany," and most of them did.
    But German Jews were not threatened. NSDAP actually protected Jews in Germany, and assisted them to leave, with much of their wealth -- and to the detriment of the German economy.

    Polish, Russian and Hungarian Jews were threatened.
    They were also the same groups least desired for migration to Palestine.
    And they were the groups who suffered the greatest deaths.

    Jewish leaders knew that Slavic Jews were the groups threatened; Rabbi Stephen Wise started complaining about "the death of 6 million Russian Jews as early as 1900.

    Why didn't Louis Brandeis direct that those Jews, the ones who were threatened, the "tired, hungry, huddled masses" of Jews be the ones that international Jewry should mobilize to remove from harm's way?

    Instead, they were the ones that the Levites slaughtered, whether by the Jewish sword or that of another.

    One other thing -- it is passing curious that in all the way-too-many holocaust museums in the world, there are no memorials to all those 6 million German Jews who died in Germany as a result of Allied firebombing.

    Ever notice that?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @J
    PS: Dr Finkelstein is a very twisted Jew, indeed. ISIS (Hamas) would straighten his head in no time.

    Dr Finkelstein is a very twisted Jew, indeed.

    That’s some almighty projection right there…

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  • @J
    PS: Dr Finkelstein is a very twisted Jew, indeed. ISIS (Hamas) would straighten his head in no time.

    Perhaps you are suggesting what many may already surmise… that ISIS functions as a terrorist proxy for Israeli extremism and its desire to shatter and destabilize Syria so Israel can keep, forever, the “stolen” Golan heights?

    … and that if Dr Finkelstein continues to expose Israels OPE for what it “truly “was….the deliberate and brutal extermination of Gaza ….you will send” Israel’s” ISIS to punish him?

    Read More
    • Replies: @J
    (1) So you think ISIS, the Sunni Caliphate, accepts orders from Jerusalem. That is an Israeli puppet. Hm.
    (2) Israel is deliberately exterminating the population of Gaza. We must be doing a very poor job, because Gaza's population is growing at 3.5% per year. They were 500,000 a generation ago, now they are about 3 million.
    (3) No, I dont wish harm on anybody. Specifically, I consider that after Auschwitz, every Jewish life is precious. Prof. Finkelstein, pathetic a Jew that he is, is my brother.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Jim
    The Israelis are caught in this endless nightmare. But the US needn't ever have gotten involved and we wouldn't have if Truman had followed the advice of people like George Marshall and George Kennan rather than the advice of his political operatives.

    Harry Truman–the failed haberdasher, the “Senator from Pendergast”–recognized Israel in return for $2 million in campaign contributions from Zionist sources.

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  • PS: Dr Finkelstein is a very twisted Jew, indeed. ISIS (Hamas) would straighten his head in no time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Perhaps you are suggesting what many may already surmise... that ISIS functions as a terrorist proxy for Israeli extremism and its desire to shatter and destabilize Syria so Israel can keep, forever, the "stolen" Golan heights?

    ... and that if Dr Finkelstein continues to expose Israels OPE for what it "truly "was....the deliberate and brutal extermination of Gaza ....you will send" Israel's" ISIS to punish him?
    , @Anonymous

    Dr Finkelstein is a very twisted Jew, indeed.
     
    That's some almighty projection right there...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • J says:

    Those innocent victim Hamas fired hundred of katyushas and rockets on civilian populations in Israel. They executed Israeli soldiers where they could. They tried to produce surprise terror attack through tunnels that ended in Israeli settlements. Everybody who lived through those terrible moments desired that the cruel savages of Gaza be terminated to emerge from the nightmare.

    I dont understand how Americans, who are bombing day after day ISIS (that is the same Hamas of Gaza) and watch the videoclips of cruel decapitations and crucifixions, slave markets, etc. can feel for their sworn enemies. Dont you see what ISIS (that is Hamas) is doing to the Christians?

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    All these wars Israel keeps committing to just proves to me one thing: the Jewish people are not a martial race. They do not have fighting spirit. All their technology, firepower, intelligence, and massive arsenals were ineffective against some gaggle of ragtag low-tech resistance fighters (who have been under the worlds most intense blockade, embargo, and sanctions).

    It explains the lack of fighting seen from Jewish people during World War 2. Russian kids, aged 8 years old, would sneak and crawl under Nazi tanks to plant explosives. The Soviet people understood that this was an existential war that required everyone to do their part. Yet when it came to the Jewish people they just lined up with little to no resistance. We see a couple of incidents where young Jewish men bravely resisted the Nazis in ghettos but every other story is about how meekly they queued up to be executed.

    “Did you ever kill somebody, or not?”
    I wonder if anyone asked that after the 2006 Hezbollah war when the IDF found out it wasn’t cool to fight trained and armed (yet still third-world) fighters as opposed to the defenseless women and children of Gaza.

    I wonder if anyone asked that after 1945…. you know… when it mattered.

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  • The Israelis are caught in this endless nightmare. But the US needn’t ever have gotten involved and we wouldn’t have if Truman had followed the advice of people like George Marshall and George Kennan rather than the advice of his political operatives.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Orville H. Larson
    Harry Truman--the failed haberdasher, the "Senator from Pendergast"--recognized Israel in return for $2 million in campaign contributions from Zionist sources.
    , @KA
    Israel was born at a time when one nation was standing tall and at nation was already bought by Zionist.
    UN General Assembly supported the partition in majority vote but there was no UNSC vote or resolution. The vote was not binding
    The votes were bought ,some by bribes,some under duress some under plain threat. There were even threat to lives of some of the UN dignitaries . India was one of those who was threatened.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The scale of the entire operation indicates that it had been planned for some time prior and wasn’t just a spontaneous retaliation for a Palestinian attack. There was nothing spontaneous about it. Of course there’ll be internet commenters claiming they were just reacting to Palestinian provocations. One favorite claim of theirs is that the Palestinians welcome being bombed and provoke it because it provides such good propaganda for them when they can cart out their dead children for the television cameras. Those people can explain away anything.
    Reportedly $2B of firepower was expended upon Gaza which is not a terribly big place therefore the experience must have been a very intense and terrifying one which was probably the intent to begin with. The money could theoretically have been spent on things like paying better salaries and pensions, providing medical or educational services, things like that. The leadership apparently prefers to spend the wealth of the country in other ways in accord with their own priorities.

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    • Agree: Orville H. Larson
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  • The allegation that not just Israel but Hamas as well committed massive war crimes underpins Amnesty’s “balanced” indictment of both sides. Amnesty’s accusations that Hamas was guilty of “flagrant violations of international law”—that is, war crimes—fall under two heads: (1) its use of inherently indiscriminate weapons, and (2) its indiscriminate or deliberate targeting of Israeli...
  • Dear Dr Finkelstein,

    Why hasn’t Amnesty international ever considered “Penalizing” Israel for the” indiscriminate” nature of the Gazan’s’ “crude”rocket attacks ?

    After all…Aren’t the cruel restrictions and the siege as a whole what accounts for Gaza’s inability to purchase rocket launchers with anything more than”stone age” accuracy ?

    Shouldn’t Israel be hauled before the ICC on those charges first ?

    I mean come on .

    If Israel makes sure Gaza can only throw a “pebble”…why shouldn’t Israel be held account for the nature of that pebble’s” poor” trajectory ?

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  • It’s OK Israel the world does not mind you using Sacrificial children for you to further you greater Israel agenda!

    Please continue as you wish!

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  • The ghastly truth of what unfolded in Gaza is captured, not in Amnesty’s effective whitewash but, instead, in the Breaking the Silence collection of testimonies of Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers who served in Gaza during OPE (see Table 4).[1] TABLE 4 Property/Home Destruction in Gaza during OPE: A Selection of IDF Testimonies 1* [Did...
  • @George123
    Wow, and all this indiscriminate bombing by a super modern air force, artillery core, armored core, and infantry in hugely crowded areas managed to kill only 2,000 people out of a population of over a million over the course of an entire month?

    Hmmmm, clearly modern weaponry has undergone an astonishing decline in effectiveness since WW2, where 2 k people could be killed in 15 minutes with a 1/1000 the ordnance.

    At this rate, we might as well just use bows and arrows since a force determined to do a genocide seems less effective in an entire month than a company of Roman soldiers would be in 2 hours.

    I literally had no idea modern weapons had actually become worse than what cavemen were using. Thanks for the info!

    All joking aside, anyone familiar with military matters knows that that this report has no context. For instance, that an individual tanker doesn't know why he is told to fire upon a particular house or neighborhood means nothing, and the fact that no return fire was given also means nothing. Intelligence at HQ determines if a neighborhood is largely cleared of civilians and is a threat or not and fire is often of the "supressive" sort - if no return fire is experience, its doing its job.

    And military engineers might well have exploded those houses when soldiers left because they could be used as sniper positions or launch points for misslies - who knows?

    Without context, no one can say.

    Conveniently, context isn't provided.

    But sensationalism seems sadly effective on the minds of the uneducated, naive, and childish.

    Context…..hmmm

    Like all those Heroic Israel armored tanks confronting and fighting the droves of Palestinian tanks in close quarter combat ?….Hmm, since that didn’t happen……No “context” there !

    How about the Heroic Israeli air force in all those “heroic ” dogfights with those Palestinian jet fighters. that lasted for hours at a time..Oops….since that didn’t happen ..No context there….either !

    how about that amazing agility of those heroic Israeli fighter jets dodging and weaving through all that anti aircraft fire…heading straight at them?…..Geeze…I guess that didn’t happen either….

    I guess you are fresh out of “context” for a “war” having happened at all…Greg…But all the context in the world for an ” extermination” !

    Which is the true absence of any “context” at all !

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Wow, and all this indiscriminate bombing by a super modern air force, artillery core, armored core, and infantry in hugely crowded areas managed to kill only 2,000 people out of a population of over a million over the course of an entire month?

    Hmmmm, clearly modern weaponry has undergone an astonishing decline in effectiveness since WW2, where 2 k people could be killed in 15 minutes with a 1/1000 the ordnance.

    At this rate, we might as well just use bows and arrows since a force determined to do a genocide seems less effective in an entire month than a company of Roman soldiers would be in 2 hours.

    I literally had no idea modern weapons had actually become worse than what cavemen were using. Thanks for the info!

    All joking aside, anyone familiar with military matters knows that that this report has no context. For instance, that an individual tanker doesn’t know why he is told to fire upon a particular house or neighborhood means nothing, and the fact that no return fire was given also means nothing. Intelligence at HQ determines if a neighborhood is largely cleared of civilians and is a threat or not and fire is often of the “supressive” sort – if no return fire is experience, its doing its job.

    And military engineers might well have exploded those houses when soldiers left because they could be used as sniper positions or launch points for misslies – who knows?

    Without context, no one can say.

    Conveniently, context isn’t provided.

    But sensationalism seems sadly effective on the minds of the uneducated, naive, and childish.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Context.....hmmm

    Like all those Heroic Israel armored tanks confronting and fighting the droves of Palestinian tanks in close quarter combat ?....Hmm, since that didn't happen......No "context" there !

    How about the Heroic Israeli air force in all those "heroic " dogfights with those Palestinian jet fighters. that lasted for hours at a time..Oops....since that didn't happen ..No context there....either !

    how about that amazing agility of those heroic Israeli fighter jets dodging and weaving through all that anti aircraft fire...heading straight at them?.....Geeze...I guess that didn't happen either....

    I guess you are fresh out of "context" for a "war" having happened at all...Greg...But all the context in the world for an " extermination" !

    Which is the true absence of any "context" at all !
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Wally [AKA "BobbyBeGood"] says: • Website

    Stinky Finkelstein believes in and benefits from the laughable and scientifically impossible ’6M & gas chambers’ scam.

    That says everything you need to know about a supremacist Jew.

    Spell it ‘holocau$t’.

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  • Dear Dr Finkelstein,

    Reading these reports is unbelievable ! Simply unbelievable !

    This was an ‘extermination” of Gaza.

    A holocausting of Gaza !

    I do not know what else to say .

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Amnesty’s biased evidentiary approach is also manifest in Families under the Rubble, which examines targeted Israeli attacks on inhabited civilian homes. It does find that the eight attacks on which it focused were on various grounds unlawful and possibly war crimes.[1] However, although it asserts that “the onus is on Israel to provide information concerning...
  • Amnesty International lost its way a long time ago, when it promoted the false baby incubator story to promote the Gulf war at the insistence of a board member who was probably an MI6 agent.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factory"] says:

    Amnesty International was never a fair organization.

    It has been politically motivated like all others.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Hospitals (cont.) Shuhada al-Aqsa. Israel shelled Shuhada al-Aqsa hospital, killing at least four people and wounding dozens. Noting that Israel alleged it had targeted a cache of antitank missiles stored “in the immediate vicinity of the hospital,” Amnesty states that it “has not been able to confirm this” incident and calls for it to be...
  • @Adolf Verloc
    It has been very illuminating to see that Finkelswine's fundamental allegiance is to the Tribe. Chomsky, too, at the end of the day.

    Regardless of his ‘fundamental allegiance’ surely you must see that articles such as this, as well as the main body of his work, have put him at odds with all of those who uphold the Occupation. He has also excoriated promoters who use the holocaust for political and financial gain. He has been clubbed while protesting by Israeli soldiers and hounded out of his last two university lectureships and he adopts an ascetic lifestyle. I have never seen him do anything that could possibly endear him to the Zionist establishment – they loathe him in fact. Certainly the man is not wealthy and never likely to be so. Why do you think he did all this and why the childish name-calling? The man has enormous courage and especially so since he is Jewish.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • ISRAEL IS A CRIMINAL STATE AND JUDAISM IS A CRIMINAL CULT

    Thanks for the interesting article, Sir. You have made a very convincing case that Israel is a criminal state and is engaged in crimes against humanity—against the Gazans in Gaza, and, I would add, against white Americans and Europeans by carrying out the 3rd world alien invasion of USA and EU, with the clear intent of ethnic cleansing of whites, and bribing politicians to carry out its agenda in USA and EU.

    The Jewish lobby is therefore also involved in these crimes against humanity, because it bribes and threatens politicians for its above purposes.

    We must not overlook the fact that Israel and the Jewish lobby’s criminality does not occur in a vacuum; it is a part and parcel of Judaism and is rooted in the Torah (OT) and the Talmud.

    The worship of the God of War, Yahweh, a mass murderer and of Moses, a mass murder, surely have something to do with the hate and blood lust of the Judaists. For this, I quote 2 famous writers:

    “There is no text more barbaric than the Old Testament [i.e. Torah]. The Koran pales in comparison”–Sam Harris.

    “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction; jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sado-masochictic, caprciously malevolent bully.” – Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

    The purpose of bringing this up is to bring up the fact that blood curdling hatred for goyim (manifesting itself in alienism and bombing Gaza) is deep rooted in the Jewish religion and is unlikely to diminish unless and until we attack and expose the root cause—the criminal cult of Judaism.

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  • It has been very illuminating to see that Finkelswine’s fundamental allegiance is to the Tribe. Chomsky, too, at the end of the day.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AUGUSTUS FINKIN
    Regardless of his 'fundamental allegiance' surely you must see that articles such as this, as well as the main body of his work, have put him at odds with all of those who uphold the Occupation. He has also excoriated promoters who use the holocaust for political and financial gain. He has been clubbed while protesting by Israeli soldiers and hounded out of his last two university lectureships and he adopts an ascetic lifestyle. I have never seen him do anything that could possibly endear him to the Zionist establishment - they loathe him in fact. Certainly the man is not wealthy and never likely to be so. Why do you think he did all this and why the childish name-calling? The man has enormous courage and especially so since he is Jewish.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Amnesty’s citation of official Israeli sources produces skewed results that validate Israeli propaganda at Hamas’s expense. In some instances more credible contrary evidence is simply ignored. In its hyperbolic inventory of Hamas’s arsenal, Amnesty quotes the Israeli allegation that it intercepted a vessel carrying Iranian rockets “bound for Gaza.” It omits the widely reported finding...
  • Okay thanks for the first response there, but now you’ve gone into crazy talk and a long list of strawman arguments. Really, anyone can read what I actually wrote, so there’s no need for a response. With your own massive penchant for hyperbole and appeal to emotion fallacies, I can see why you appreciate Finkelstein’s writing.

    I am also not Israeli, though I witnessed the last conflict because I work as an archaeologist in Israel on a tel with a view of a large span of the coastal plain including northern Gaza.

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  • @alexander
    dear Labayu,

    I know you have a desire to link Palestinian resistance to Nazi Germany..all Israelis do !.

    It has always soothed the souls of Israelis who exterminated innocent Palestinians and stole their homes and land just like the Nazis exterminated Jews and stole their homes and land...to feel like they were fighting the good fight against the Nazis...when they were really just doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them.

    Its the same" mind set" as the complete denial that any Palestinians existed at all.

    " A land without a people for a people without a land "...was practically the National anthem of Israeli diplomacy for fifty years !

    Joan Peters " From Time immemorial", which was definitive reading on the topic did the same thing....

    There were never any" Palestinians" at all.....and if their were any Palestinians they all worked with the Nazis !...There.... we feel so much better now !

    You also do a nice rewrite on Israeli terrorist attacks against the British...It makes perfect sense you would...how could Jewish terrorists possibly attack allied forces?....lets just turn the Brits into Nazis. or lets turn the the Jews into Palestinians..There we go, all better now !


    And of course it was the Palestinians who Bombed the USS LIBERTY in 1967.!.....Lets see... I know .....They had kept a secret Aryan scroll from the Fuhrer himself... tucked away for decades in a Terror tunnel in Susiya...which ,of course,instructed the Palestinian Nazis how to commandeer an Israeli fighter jet to attack the United States Naval vessel ....There... that's a good one..".The Palestinians did it !"........I feel so much better now ...
    Don't you !

    lets all go on our merry way....... knowing we can do no wrong !..

    Dear Labayu,

    Your fascination with the “special ‘” status of Palestinians refugees is also quite revealing. It suggests, by your bringing it up ,there is something “wrong” with the international process that would bestow a heredity privilege on the right of return ,to Palestinians ….As if to say, Shucks, if only the Palestinians could be integrated into their respective refugee societies, all would be okay today…

    Meanwhile the assured privilege of any person of Jewish ancestry anywhere in the world having the absolute guarantee of their right of return to Israel , some how does not confer that ‘special ‘ privilege on Jewish people.?..

    .Not really worth a mention if it does!?

    Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black …..

    wouldn’t you say . Labayu ?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • dear Labayu,

    I know you have a desire to link Palestinian resistance to Nazi Germany..all Israelis do !.

    It has always soothed the souls of Israelis who exterminated innocent Palestinians and stole their homes and land just like the Nazis exterminated Jews and stole their homes and land…to feel like they were fighting the good fight against the Nazis…when they were really just doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them.

    Its the same” mind set” as the complete denial that any Palestinians existed at all.

    ” A land without a people for a people without a land “…was practically the National anthem of Israeli diplomacy for fifty years !

    Joan Peters ” From Time immemorial”, which was definitive reading on the topic did the same thing….

    There were never any” Palestinians” at all…..and if their were any Palestinians they all worked with the Nazis !…There…. we feel so much better now !

    You also do a nice rewrite on Israeli terrorist attacks against the British…It makes perfect sense you would…how could Jewish terrorists possibly attack allied forces?….lets just turn the Brits into Nazis. or lets turn the the Jews into Palestinians..There we go, all better now !

    And of course it was the Palestinians who Bombed the USS LIBERTY in 1967.!…..Lets see… I know …..They had kept a secret Aryan scroll from the Fuhrer himself… tucked away for decades in a Terror tunnel in Susiya…which ,of course,instructed the Palestinian Nazis how to commandeer an Israeli fighter jet to attack the United States Naval vessel ….There… that’s a good one..”.The Palestinians did it !”……..I feel so much better now …
    Don’t you !

    lets all go on our merry way……. knowing we can do no wrong !..

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Dear Labayu,


    Your fascination with the "special '" status of Palestinians refugees is also quite revealing. It suggests, by your bringing it up ,there is something "wrong" with the international process that would bestow a heredity privilege on the right of return ,to Palestinians ....As if to say, Shucks, if only the Palestinians could be integrated into their respective refugee societies, all would be okay today...

    Meanwhile the assured privilege of any person of Jewish ancestry anywhere in the world having the absolute guarantee of their right of return to Israel , some how does not confer that 'special ' privilege on Jewish people.?..

    .Not really worth a mention if it does!?

    Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black .....

    wouldn't you say . Labayu ?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Labayu
    There is nothing to be shocked about, of course I know the history. I think you missed the point again, which is about how the Palestinian refugees are treated differently than all other refugees.

    Of course Irgun engaged in acts of terror and revenge killings. It's a simple fact of history. You are mistaken about Haganah, they did not. In fact the reason Irgun split from Haganah is because of Haganah's policy of restraint. Up until 1941, Haganah was a defensive militia - their name means "the defence". They collaborated with the British until 1943. Irgun split from Haganah in 1931, but didn't start carrying out attacks until 1936. In 1937, they started carrying out terror attacks against Arab civilians which prompted about half their membership to return to Haganah. In 1941, Haganah formed an elite offensive force call the Palmach, who were trained by the British and fought with the British against the Vichy French in Lebanon. In 1948, Haganah became the IDF and Irgun was forced to disband. The Palmach's last military operation was against members of Irgun who refused to turn over their weapons.

    Palestinian terrorism began as a reaction to Jewish immigration and British rule. Haganah was formed in response to the 1929 Hebron Massacre in which 67 Jews were killed and the Safed Riots which happened at about the same time and left 18 Jews dead. The anti-Jewish riots were spurred on by Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem. The Arabs fought a major revolt against the British from 1936 to 1939 in which many more Jews were killed. Though the British killed about 5,000 Arabs putting the revolt down.

    From 1933 on, al-Husseini worked to ally the Palestinian resistance with Nazi Germany. The Germans sent the Palestinians some aid and weapons starting in 1937. In 1941, al-Husseini met with Hitler and Ribbentrop and told them that Arabs were Germany's natural allies because they had the same enemies - the British and the Jews. During the war, al-Husseini helped recruit Bosnian Muslims for the SS. He also tried to convince the Nazis to bomb Tel Aviv, but they considered such an operation to be infeasible based on the strategic situation. Throughout the war, al-Husseini was paid a salary by the Nazi's which was twice the rate of a field marshal in order to work to spread Nazi propaganda throughout the Arab speaking world. During a radio broadcast on March 1st, 1944, al-Husseini urged Arabs to "rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you."

    So while the Arab resistance during the mandate period was understandable to some degree, it also had a colorful history, especially its two most important leaders Izz ad-Din al-Qassam and Haj Amin al-Husseini.

    Dear labayu,

    Thank you so much for that response.!..
    .I enjoyed it and learned alot !

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Dear Labayu,


    I think you seem to forget that Nazi Germany began its quest to conquer the world and nearly succeeded.....Almost 60 million people died and most of Europe was in ruin ! The Nazi ideology of world conquest, global domination and its unquenchable desire for Lebensraum (living space)nearly destroyed all of Western Civilization.
    the Nazi expansionist zeal , their unflinching belief in their own "Aryan " exceptionalism, their right to conquer, kill and take others peoples land and homes, and their super powered military , nearly destroyed Europe .
    furthermore if there was one country , above all others,that "mastered the art of creating "REFUGEES' it was Nazi Germany ! And those refugees were ,for the most part, JEWS !

    I am "shocked" that you do not know this ?

    if there is any parallel AT ALL with the expulsion and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from
    ISRAEL...it is the expulsion and ethnic cleansing of JEWS from Nazi Germany !



    The Idea that you are trying to create some fumbling linkage with Polands desire to expel Germans from their country AFTER the Nazi rampage of all of Europe, with Israels desire to expel Palestinians is very weak , very weak !

    When the REAL analogy to the expulsion of Palestinians, staring everyone right in the face, is Nazi Germany's expulsion of the JEWS!

    How could you miss that one?

    I will certainly look into "the Black hand" and its history...but you seem to be suggesting by your inference that Hamas was NOT formed in 1988, fully 40 years after the expulsion of Palestinians in what became Israel... and 21 years after the invasion and occupation of the Palestinian territories....That somehow Palestinian "terrorism" is not a direct response to Israels ongoing brutal occupation but preexisted in the Palestinian DNA, only to march out when needed, by Israel ,to point their finger at the bad guy !

    Not so sure it is true....but it might be ! I just don't see any substantive rational for Palestinian terrorism before 1948...were they resisting their own occupation of themselves in their own land ?

    It is interesting that you mention the Irgun, and seem to acknowledge, somewhat grudgingly, that they may have committed a little eensie weensie baby terror, maybe ! But you do not mention the Haganah and the Stern gang ! two terrorist organizations notorious for their cruelty and "hurting power" !

    There was real purpose to" Israeli terrorism" in the run up to 1948...and it was to make life extremely uncomfortable for the British so they would LEAVE and it served as the onset of the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, post 1948, to pave the way for a Jewish majority in a newly minted democratic Israel !

    Certainly from the perspective of Palestinians, (and their perspective is as valid as anyone else's.)..the creation of the State of Israel was one giant "Terrorist Act" foisted ON them, their freedom, their self determination, and their dignity as a people !

    From the perspective of the Jews, the creation of Israel was the culmination of a two thousand year journey to get back home ! To finally, and especially after the Holocaust, reunite with their their ancestral lands, their heritage, and to forge a nation that was truly their OWN !

    There is nothing to be shocked about, of course I know the history. I think you missed the point again, which is about how the Palestinian refugees are treated differently than all other refugees.

    Of course Irgun engaged in acts of terror and revenge killings. It’s a simple fact of history. You are mistaken about Haganah, they did not. In fact the reason Irgun split from Haganah is because of Haganah’s policy of restraint. Up until 1941, Haganah was a defensive militia – their name means “the defence”. They collaborated with the British until 1943. Irgun split from Haganah in 1931, but didn’t start carrying out attacks until 1936. In 1937, they started carrying out terror attacks against Arab civilians which prompted about half their membership to return to Haganah. In 1941, Haganah formed an elite offensive force call the Palmach, who were trained by the British and fought with the British against the Vichy French in Lebanon. In 1948, Haganah became the IDF and Irgun was forced to disband. The Palmach’s last military operation was against members of Irgun who refused to turn over their weapons.

    Palestinian terrorism began as a reaction to Jewish immigration and British rule. Haganah was formed in response to the 1929 Hebron Massacre in which 67 Jews were killed and the Safed Riots which happened at about the same time and left 18 Jews dead. The anti-Jewish riots were spurred on by Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem. The Arabs fought a major revolt against the British from 1936 to 1939 in which many more Jews were killed. Though the British killed about 5,000 Arabs putting the revolt down.

    From 1933 on, al-Husseini worked to ally the Palestinian resistance with Nazi Germany. The Germans sent the Palestinians some aid and weapons starting in 1937. In 1941, al-Husseini met with Hitler and Ribbentrop and told them that Arabs were Germany’s natural allies because they had the same enemies – the British and the Jews. During the war, al-Husseini helped recruit Bosnian Muslims for the SS. He also tried to convince the Nazis to bomb Tel Aviv, but they considered such an operation to be infeasible based on the strategic situation. Throughout the war, al-Husseini was paid a salary by the Nazi’s which was twice the rate of a field marshal in order to work to spread Nazi propaganda throughout the Arab speaking world. During a radio broadcast on March 1st, 1944, al-Husseini urged Arabs to “rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you.”

    So while the Arab resistance during the mandate period was understandable to some degree, it also had a colorful history, especially its two most important leaders Izz ad-Din al-Qassam and Haj Amin al-Husseini.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Dear labayu,

    Thank you so much for that response.!..
    .I enjoyed it and learned alot !
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Dear Labayu,

    I think you seem to forget that Nazi Germany began its quest to conquer the world and nearly succeeded…..Almost 60 million people died and most of Europe was in ruin ! The Nazi ideology of world conquest, global domination and its unquenchable desire for Lebensraum (living space)nearly destroyed all of Western Civilization.
    the Nazi expansionist zeal , their unflinching belief in their own “Aryan ” exceptionalism, their right to conquer, kill and take others peoples land and homes, and their super powered military , nearly destroyed Europe .
    furthermore if there was one country , above all others,that “mastered the art of creating “REFUGEES’ it was Nazi Germany ! And those refugees were ,for the most part, JEWS !

    I am “shocked” that you do not know this ?

    if there is any parallel AT ALL with the expulsion and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from
    ISRAEL…it is the expulsion and ethnic cleansing of JEWS from Nazi Germany !

    The Idea that you are trying to create some fumbling linkage with Polands desire to expel Germans from their country AFTER the Nazi rampage of all of Europe, with Israels desire to expel Palestinians is very weak , very weak !

    When the REAL analogy to the expulsion of Palestinians, staring everyone right in the face, is Nazi Germany’s expulsion of the JEWS!

    How could you miss that one?

    I will certainly look into “the Black hand” and its history…but you seem to be suggesting by your inference that Hamas was NOT formed in 1988, fully 40 years after the expulsion of Palestinians in what became Israel… and 21 years after the invasion and occupation of the Palestinian territories….That somehow Palestinian “terrorism” is not a direct response to Israels ongoing brutal occupation but preexisted in the Palestinian DNA, only to march out when needed, by Israel ,to point their finger at the bad guy !

    Not so sure it is true….but it might be ! I just don’t see any substantive rational for Palestinian terrorism before 1948…were they resisting their own occupation of themselves in their own land ?

    It is interesting that you mention the Irgun, and seem to acknowledge, somewhat grudgingly, that they may have committed a little eensie weensie baby terror, maybe ! But you do not mention the Haganah and the Stern gang ! two terrorist organizations notorious for their cruelty and “hurting power” !

    There was real purpose to” Israeli terrorism” in the run up to 1948…and it was to make life extremely uncomfortable for the British so they would LEAVE and it served as the onset of the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, post 1948, to pave the way for a Jewish majority in a newly minted democratic Israel !

    Certainly from the perspective of Palestinians, (and their perspective is as valid as anyone else’s.)..the creation of the State of Israel was one giant “Terrorist Act” foisted ON them, their freedom, their self determination, and their dignity as a people !

    From the perspective of the Jews, the creation of Israel was the culmination of a two thousand year journey to get back home ! To finally, and especially after the Holocaust, reunite with their their ancestral lands, their heritage, and to forge a nation that was truly their OWN !

    Read More
    • Replies: @Labayu
    There is nothing to be shocked about, of course I know the history. I think you missed the point again, which is about how the Palestinian refugees are treated differently than all other refugees.

    Of course Irgun engaged in acts of terror and revenge killings. It's a simple fact of history. You are mistaken about Haganah, they did not. In fact the reason Irgun split from Haganah is because of Haganah's policy of restraint. Up until 1941, Haganah was a defensive militia - their name means "the defence". They collaborated with the British until 1943. Irgun split from Haganah in 1931, but didn't start carrying out attacks until 1936. In 1937, they started carrying out terror attacks against Arab civilians which prompted about half their membership to return to Haganah. In 1941, Haganah formed an elite offensive force call the Palmach, who were trained by the British and fought with the British against the Vichy French in Lebanon. In 1948, Haganah became the IDF and Irgun was forced to disband. The Palmach's last military operation was against members of Irgun who refused to turn over their weapons.

    Palestinian terrorism began as a reaction to Jewish immigration and British rule. Haganah was formed in response to the 1929 Hebron Massacre in which 67 Jews were killed and the Safed Riots which happened at about the same time and left 18 Jews dead. The anti-Jewish riots were spurred on by Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem. The Arabs fought a major revolt against the British from 1936 to 1939 in which many more Jews were killed. Though the British killed about 5,000 Arabs putting the revolt down.

    From 1933 on, al-Husseini worked to ally the Palestinian resistance with Nazi Germany. The Germans sent the Palestinians some aid and weapons starting in 1937. In 1941, al-Husseini met with Hitler and Ribbentrop and told them that Arabs were Germany's natural allies because they had the same enemies - the British and the Jews. During the war, al-Husseini helped recruit Bosnian Muslims for the SS. He also tried to convince the Nazis to bomb Tel Aviv, but they considered such an operation to be infeasible based on the strategic situation. Throughout the war, al-Husseini was paid a salary by the Nazi's which was twice the rate of a field marshal in order to work to spread Nazi propaganda throughout the Arab speaking world. During a radio broadcast on March 1st, 1944, al-Husseini urged Arabs to "rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you."

    So while the Arab resistance during the mandate period was understandable to some degree, it also had a colorful history, especially its two most important leaders Izz ad-Din al-Qassam and Haj Amin al-Husseini.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Dear Labayu,

    Germany invaded Poland in 1939......the Arab armies you are referring to did not INVADE the British Mandate of Palestine..at the same time!..They certainly didn't invade Israel...because Israel did not exist !
    IT WASN"T UNTIL 1948 when the British relinquished control to the newly bifurcated Israel /Palestine.. which precipitated the brutal and sadistic ethnic cleansing and expulsion of Palestinians from the areas earmarked for the future Jewish State, that brought the invasion of the Arab armies....and yes you are correct...THE ARABS LOST ! BAD ! But they lost nine years after Germany's invasion of Poland...Not at the same time ! And not for the same reasons!

    The British Mandate of Palestine, between 1939 and 1948, was never besieged by "Arab armies"...if anything they were besieged by JEWISH TERRORISTS,!
    The Stern Gang, The Irgun Svi Leumi, and the Haganah were ruthless in their bombings, assassinations, and assorted terrorist attacks against both the British and the Palestinians !
    if you don't believe me ask the Brits !
    They can tell you , first hand ,just how "nasty" and "despicable" "Jewish Terrorism" was, in the run up to creation of the state of Israel... A most notable example was the bombing of the King David Hotel in , I believe, 1946 !
    There was no Muslim , Arab, or Palestinian" terrorism" going on.AT ALL..it was all" Jewish terrorism."..and they were good at it ! They were vicious ! So vicious and cunning, in fact, the Palestinians had no idea what hit them ! No idea at all!

    Most of the TERROR techniques, which have been employed by nasty "Hamas" , and are globally condemned TODAY,were taken "whole cloth" from the Irgun and the Stern gang !

    Just because very few, if any, Americans know this , doesn't mean it isn't true !

    if you don't believe me.....just GOOGLE it !

    Again, you’re not responding to what I actually wrote. This is a strawman. I made no such historical errors. What I said was Germans fled or were driven out of Silesia, Pomerania, and Prussia between 1944 and 1950. This at about the same time Palestinians fled or were driven out of what is now Israel in 1948 to 1949. That the preceding wars were of a different length and that the invading armies had different motivations is irrelevant to the refugee situations, as in both cases many of the refugees were non-combatants. Interestingly though, the stated casus belli was quite similar. Germany claimed to be invading Poland in order to protect ethnic Germans. The Arab armies claimed to be invading Palestine to protect ethnic Arabs. The number of Germans displaced from just those regions was about four times the number of Palestinian Arabs, but they haven’t been forced to stay in camps or refused citizenship elsewhere over the course of generations.

    What is clear is that Palestinian refugees are treated differently than the rest of the world’s refugees, as previously noted, even having a separate UN agency devoted to them which keeps them in a state of perpetual victimhood throughout their entire lives and over the course of generations.

    While Irgun committed terror attacks beginning in 1936, your claim is partially false. The military wing of Hamas is named after Izz ad-Din al-Qassam who started a terror organization in 1929 called al-Kaff al-Aswad (The Black Hand). They killed Jewish civilians, British policemen, and Arabs who sold land to Jews. They carried out attacks such as throwing grenades into the home of a sleeping family. Qassam was eventually hunted down and killed by the British authorities. His death was one factor that helped spark the Arab revolt of 1936-39.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Labayu
    You responded as if I was making a moral argument, but I wasn’t. My point is that since Israelis don't believe that there will ever be a return of refugees to Israel, that belief or concern doesn’t motivate their actions. It doesn’t make any sense that they would take actions that damage their diplomatic standing in order to forestall something they believe will never happen anyway.

    Since I wasn't making a moral argument, I certainly wasn't claiming that two wrongs make a right. My point was as I said, Palestinians are the only people in the world that inherit their refugee status over generations. As far as the UN is concerned, all the world’s refugees fall under the jurisdiction of the UNHCR except Palestinians which are managed by the separate UNRWA. Whereas the UNHCR’s finds homes for refugees so that they can move on with their lives, the UNRWA keeps the Palestinians in a state of permanent victimhood over the span of multiple generations.

    Without getting into the details of why (which should be obvious), the bottom line is that any Israeli ruling government has to react to the rockets, or else they will be voted out of office and replaced by people who will. No other explanation is really necessary.


    I find it fascinating , labayu, that when seeking to equate Palestinian expulsion, of all things ,you chose German expulsion from Poland post WWII, as though Germany had not invaded and occupied Poland during the war and sought its expansive Lebensraum (living space) from the “inferior” Polish “Untermenchen”…much the same way Israel is expanding its Lebensraum into much of the Palestinian ‘Untermenchen” territories today….not a good fit , Labayu !
     
    I chose that example because the ethnic Germans fled or were driven out at about the same time as the Palestinians fled or were driven out. There are many parallels. Silesia, Pomerania, and Prussia had been home to Germans since the Middle Ages. Though the inhabitants were thoroughly German in their identity, they were probably descendants of both the invading Germans and local people, just as the Arabs of Palestine identify as Arabs despite descending from both the invaders and the local people. Germany did invade Poland just as the Arab armies invaded the Jewish held areas of Palestine, both Germany and the Arabs lost and civilians who may or may not have been involved in the fighting lost their homes. Poles only became the predominant ethnic group in Silesia, Pomerania, and Prussia in the late 1940s when the Germans lost their home. Silesia and Pomerania had not been Polish since the early Middle Ages, just as Palestine had not been Jewish since ancient times other than a few communities. The difference is that Germany took in the ethnic Germans refugees, while the Arab countries mostly kept the Arab refugees in camps.

    Dear Labayu,

    Germany invaded Poland in 1939……the Arab armies you are referring to did not INVADE the British Mandate of Palestine..at the same time!..They certainly didn’t invade Israel…because Israel did not exist !
    IT WASN”T UNTIL 1948 when the British relinquished control to the newly bifurcated Israel /Palestine.. which precipitated the brutal and sadistic ethnic cleansing and expulsion of Palestinians from the areas earmarked for the future Jewish State, that brought the invasion of the Arab armies….and yes you are correct…THE ARABS LOST ! BAD ! But they lost nine years after Germany’s invasion of Poland…Not at the same time ! And not for the same reasons!

    The British Mandate of Palestine, between 1939 and 1948, was never besieged by “Arab armies”…if anything they were besieged by JEWISH TERRORISTS,!
    The Stern Gang, The Irgun Svi Leumi, and the Haganah were ruthless in their bombings, assassinations, and assorted terrorist attacks against both the British and the Palestinians !
    if you don’t believe me ask the Brits !
    They can tell you , first hand ,just how “nasty” and “despicable” “Jewish Terrorism” was, in the run up to creation of the state of Israel… A most notable example was the bombing of the King David Hotel in , I believe, 1946 !
    There was no Muslim , Arab, or Palestinian” terrorism” going on.AT ALL..it was all” Jewish terrorism.”..and they were good at it ! They were vicious ! So vicious and cunning, in fact, the Palestinians had no idea what hit them ! No idea at all!

    Most of the TERROR techniques, which have been employed by nasty “Hamas” , and are globally condemned TODAY,were taken “whole cloth” from the Irgun and the Stern gang !

    Just because very few, if any, Americans know this , doesn’t mean it isn’t true !

    if you don’t believe me…..just GOOGLE it !

    Read More
    • Replies: @Labayu
    Again, you’re not responding to what I actually wrote. This is a strawman. I made no such historical errors. What I said was Germans fled or were driven out of Silesia, Pomerania, and Prussia between 1944 and 1950. This at about the same time Palestinians fled or were driven out of what is now Israel in 1948 to 1949. That the preceding wars were of a different length and that the invading armies had different motivations is irrelevant to the refugee situations, as in both cases many of the refugees were non-combatants. Interestingly though, the stated casus belli was quite similar. Germany claimed to be invading Poland in order to protect ethnic Germans. The Arab armies claimed to be invading Palestine to protect ethnic Arabs. The number of Germans displaced from just those regions was about four times the number of Palestinian Arabs, but they haven’t been forced to stay in camps or refused citizenship elsewhere over the course of generations.

    What is clear is that Palestinian refugees are treated differently than the rest of the world’s refugees, as previously noted, even having a separate UN agency devoted to them which keeps them in a state of perpetual victimhood throughout their entire lives and over the course of generations.

    While Irgun committed terror attacks beginning in 1936, your claim is partially false. The military wing of Hamas is named after Izz ad-Din al-Qassam who started a terror organization in 1929 called al-Kaff al-Aswad (The Black Hand). They killed Jewish civilians, British policemen, and Arabs who sold land to Jews. They carried out attacks such as throwing grenades into the home of a sleeping family. Qassam was eventually hunted down and killed by the British authorities. His death was one factor that helped spark the Arab revolt of 1936-39.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Dear Labayu,

    I think at this juncture in time, the sacrosanct quality of Jewish self determination, post Holocaust, is overpowering.

    There is no way that Israel will relinquish the control it has over its destiny by submitting to an influx of six millions Palestinian refugees....It just is not going to happen !

    But that does not negate the right the Palestinians have to return to the homes they were forced out of .....That right belongs to them, not the Jewish people and not the Jewish state !

    The fact that Israel will refuse to permit it does not abrogate its existence !

    The idea that "Israel doesn't believe in something" doesn't just make that" something "go away.!

    But" exterminating" the Palestinians sure does !

    Do you see my point, Labayu ?

    .Your next point...The fact that Jews were expelled from Germany , Egypt, Iraq, or wherever else, has little to do with the" Palestinian Expulsion" or Nakba.....Jewish expulsion from those areas was not a result of any"intentionality " on the part of Palestinians.....Two wrongs don't make a right....Its a bogus (Cat in the hat )argument, Labayu , and it always was !

    The suggestion that people don't really "care" about Palestinians, even if it were true...means what?...that their permanent "statelessness" is acceptable?.Why wouldn't, for that matter, their extermination be acceptable too?..That is like saying the Holocaust was acceptable because nobody really "cared "about the Jews....Another bogus argument !

    Israels "real" argument is a good one.!....."NEVER AGAIN !"......and they mean it.!...Jewish self determination is non negotiable......They will fight and Kill before they give up the right to control their own destiny !

    Fair enough !

    If it is 'a fair enough" argument for Israel (and it is ) than how can it be somehow "Less" fair an argument, for anybody else....especially the Palestinians !

    The Bottom line...nobody deserves to be expelled from their homes OR exterminated...even if nobody "cares" about them !


    That should be the one true and lasting lesson of the Holocaust...It is in my book !

    A compensation package to the Palestinians..and a big one...is needed for any people to accept "they can never go home again !"

    I would like to know the number the World Community and Israel has in mind?

    Perhaps the world community could add a "universal visa"... a right to live or work anywhere , for Palestinians....that would seem to add a real acknowledgement to their willingness to permanently forsake their homeland !

    If the Palestinians won't accept that and they don't have to...

    .What choice does Israel have but to kill them ?
    They cannot quarantine them forever....
    Which is why the quarantining takes on an asphyxiating quality over time...a slow death born out of the intransigence of the deadlock combined with Israels overwhelming military superiority !

    The Gaza "exterminations", over the past six years, are a manifestation of the resulting violence from that impasse !

    Given the undeniable FACT that "quarantined Gaza" and its inhabitants represent ZERO threat to Israel, militarily, the carnage wrought on Gaza is an expression of Israels 'exhaustion with the "process' and its desire to hasten a result...It is an expression of Israeli "self determination"...Not SELF DEFENSE....Sorry, bogus again !

    As a matter of fact it makes MORE sense, given the obscene disparity in each sides "hurting power" for Israelis to dig tunnels into Gaza, pretend to be Jihadists, and fire a few dozen rockets into the fields of Sderot.... to initiate the conflict..than it does for the starving and emaciated Palestinians !

    As to your argument about Gaza representing nothing that Israel might COVET.... Hmm....I am sure there are dozens of land developers waiting in the wings to put in(well connected) bids on new Israeli seaside resorts in what was once" Gaza"......And , may I add, it is well documented that British Gas was able to find, on behalf of Palestine, the largest deposit of natural gas within the entire region....inside Gaza territorial waters !...But that was before Palestinians were restricted from entering their own patch of Sea !....There is much to" covet" in Gaza...were the Palestinians to "disappear' from the scene !

    I find it fascinating , labayu, that when seeking to equate Palestinian expulsion, of all things ,you chose German expulsion from Poland post WWII, as though Germany had not invaded and occupied Poland during the war and sought its expansive Lebensraum (living space) from the "inferior" Polish "Untermenchen"...much the same way Israel is expanding its Lebensraum into much of the Palestinian 'Untermenchen" territories today....not a good fit , Labayu !



    Perhaps the Post -Zionist ideology, and its "humanist' position centering on "equal rights for all" is becoming most attractive to all those who find the brutal treatment of the Palestinians completely unconscionable...and intolerable.....Better to have a real democracy, where a bill of rights is centered on the Individual, not their ethnicity, ( like the good ole USA, at least pre 9-11) then to have another Holocaust of Palestinians or Jews !

    In so many ways, it makes a lot of sense !

    You responded as if I was making a moral argument, but I wasn’t. My point is that since Israelis don’t believe that there will ever be a return of refugees to Israel, that belief or concern doesn’t motivate their actions. It doesn’t make any sense that they would take actions that damage their diplomatic standing in order to forestall something they believe will never happen anyway.

    Since I wasn’t making a moral argument, I certainly wasn’t claiming that two wrongs make a right. My point was as I said, Palestinians are the only people in the world that inherit their refugee status over generations. As far as the UN is concerned, all the world’s refugees fall under the jurisdiction of the UNHCR except Palestinians which are managed by the separate UNRWA. Whereas the UNHCR’s finds homes for refugees so that they can move on with their lives, the UNRWA keeps the Palestinians in a state of permanent victimhood over the span of multiple generations.

    Without getting into the details of why (which should be obvious), the bottom line is that any Israeli ruling government has to react to the rockets, or else they will be voted out of office and replaced by people who will. No other explanation is really necessary.

    I find it fascinating , labayu, that when seeking to equate Palestinian expulsion, of all things ,you chose German expulsion from Poland post WWII, as though Germany had not invaded and occupied Poland during the war and sought its expansive Lebensraum (living space) from the “inferior” Polish “Untermenchen”…much the same way Israel is expanding its Lebensraum into much of the Palestinian ‘Untermenchen” territories today….not a good fit , Labayu !

    I chose that example because the ethnic Germans fled or were driven out at about the same time as the Palestinians fled or were driven out. There are many parallels. Silesia, Pomerania, and Prussia had been home to Germans since the Middle Ages. Though the inhabitants were thoroughly German in their identity, they were probably descendants of both the invading Germans and local people, just as the Arabs of Palestine identify as Arabs despite descending from both the invaders and the local people. Germany did invade Poland just as the Arab armies invaded the Jewish held areas of Palestine, both Germany and the Arabs lost and civilians who may or may not have been involved in the fighting lost their homes. Poles only became the predominant ethnic group in Silesia, Pomerania, and Prussia in the late 1940s when the Germans lost their home. Silesia and Pomerania had not been Polish since the early Middle Ages, just as Palestine had not been Jewish since ancient times other than a few communities. The difference is that Germany took in the ethnic Germans refugees, while the Arab countries mostly kept the Arab refugees in camps.

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    • Replies: @alexander
    Dear Labayu,

    Germany invaded Poland in 1939......the Arab armies you are referring to did not INVADE the British Mandate of Palestine..at the same time!..They certainly didn't invade Israel...because Israel did not exist !
    IT WASN"T UNTIL 1948 when the British relinquished control to the newly bifurcated Israel /Palestine.. which precipitated the brutal and sadistic ethnic cleansing and expulsion of Palestinians from the areas earmarked for the future Jewish State, that brought the invasion of the Arab armies....and yes you are correct...THE ARABS LOST ! BAD ! But they lost nine years after Germany's invasion of Poland...Not at the same time ! And not for the same reasons!

    The British Mandate of Palestine, between 1939 and 1948, was never besieged by "Arab armies"...if anything they were besieged by JEWISH TERRORISTS,!
    The Stern Gang, The Irgun Svi Leumi, and the Haganah were ruthless in their bombings, assassinations, and assorted terrorist attacks against both the British and the Palestinians !
    if you don't believe me ask the Brits !
    They can tell you , first hand ,just how "nasty" and "despicable" "Jewish Terrorism" was, in the run up to creation of the state of Israel... A most notable example was the bombing of the King David Hotel in , I believe, 1946 !
    There was no Muslim , Arab, or Palestinian" terrorism" going on.AT ALL..it was all" Jewish terrorism."..and they were good at it ! They were vicious ! So vicious and cunning, in fact, the Palestinians had no idea what hit them ! No idea at all!

    Most of the TERROR techniques, which have been employed by nasty "Hamas" , and are globally condemned TODAY,were taken "whole cloth" from the Irgun and the Stern gang !

    Just because very few, if any, Americans know this , doesn't mean it isn't true !

    if you don't believe me.....just GOOGLE it !
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Amnesty International is among the premier human rights organizations in the world. Its pronouncements shape public opinion, while councils of state feel obliged if not to heed them at any rate to respond. A movement for justice aspiring to reach a broad public and inflect state policy can ill afford to ignore Amnesty if and...
  • @Bill Jones
    Here, have a graphic

    https://terragermania.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/dailyexpress_judea_declares_war_on_germany.gif?w=300&h=212

    Thanks

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Amnesty’s citation of official Israeli sources produces skewed results that validate Israeli propaganda at Hamas’s expense. In some instances more credible contrary evidence is simply ignored. In its hyperbolic inventory of Hamas’s arsenal, Amnesty quotes the Israeli allegation that it intercepted a vessel carrying Iranian rockets “bound for Gaza.” It omits the widely reported finding...
  • @Labayu
    The problem with that angle is that Gaza doesn't present a demographic threat to Israel in that Israelis don't believe that the right of return will ever be implemented beyond possibility of paying reparations. Furthermore the number of Palestinians killed in the conflict is large from a humanitarian perspective, but insignificant compared to the total population. Certainly the civilian deaths are more damaging to Israel's status in the court of world opinion than they would be beneficial to any other agenda.

    Unlike the West Bank, Gaza is also not particularly important to even the religious Zionist ideology or seen as essential to Israel's security. While the West Bank includes the high ground overlooking the entirety of Israel's major population and economic centres situated along the relatively narrow coastal plain, threats from Gaza are more manageable for them. As such there is almost no internal political pressure on Israel to annex Gaza. Hence, Gazans don't create a perceived demographic threat to Israel.

    Gaza's population may include 1.7 million descendants of refugees from what is now the state of Israel. Israel's Jewish population is about half descended from Jews who fled or were driven out of Arab (and to a lesser extent other) Muslim countries. That is the argument Israel will use, and they believe it is reasonable, which is all that really matters in assessing their intentions.

    No government really cares that much about the Palestinians other than as political pawns or distractions from their own corrupt behavior, otherwise they wouldn't be the only population in the world that is kept in continual hereditary refugee status even in places like Jordan and Lebanon. Between 1944 and 1950, many more Germans fled or were driven out of Poland than Palestinians who fled or were driven out of Israel in 1948 to 1949. The difference is that the two Germanys simply granted them citizenship rather than forcing them to be perpetual refugees. The same can be said for Jews who fled to Israel from Egypt, Iraq, and so forth.

    Finkelstein's claims here remind me of the claims of a graduate student I know who is arguing in her MA thesis that US policy in the Middle East is actually a long term plan to commit genocide against Arabs. It's the same sort of convoluted appeal to emotion when much more simple explanations exist. For the Israeli leadership, there is immediate internal political pressure to make the rockets stop whenever there is a flair up. Fighting very carefully building to building on Hamas's home turf would negate Israel's technological advantage and lead to very high Israeli casualties, so airstrikes and occasionally artillery are also employed. If you do some research, you'll find that Israel's enemy combatant to civilian kill ratios are similar to those of Western armies fighting similar enemies in urban environments.

    Dear Labayu,

    I think at this juncture in time, the sacrosanct quality of Jewish self determination, post Holocaust, is overpowering.

    There is no way that Israel will relinquish the control it has over its destiny by submitting to an influx of six millions Palestinian refugees….It just is not going to happen !

    But that does not negate the right the Palestinians have to return to the homes they were forced out of …..That right belongs to them, not the Jewish people and not the Jewish state !

    The fact that Israel will refuse to permit it does not abrogate its existence !

    The idea that “Israel doesn’t believe in something” doesn’t just make that” something “go away.!

    But” exterminating” the Palestinians sure does !

    Do you see my point, Labayu ?

    .Your next point…The fact that Jews were expelled from Germany , Egypt, Iraq, or wherever else, has little to do with the” Palestinian Expulsion” or Nakba…..Jewish expulsion from those areas was not a result of any”intentionality ” on the part of Palestinians…..Two wrongs don’t make a right….Its a bogus (Cat in the hat )argument, Labayu , and it always was !

    The suggestion that people don’t really “care” about Palestinians, even if it were true…means what?…that their permanent “statelessness” is acceptable?.Why wouldn’t, for that matter, their extermination be acceptable too?..That is like saying the Holocaust was acceptable because nobody really “cared “about the Jews….Another bogus argument !

    Israels “real” argument is a good one.!…..”NEVER AGAIN !”……and they mean it.!…Jewish self determination is non negotiable……They will fight and Kill before they give up the right to control their own destiny !

    Fair enough !

    If it is ‘a fair enough” argument for Israel (and it is ) than how can it be somehow “Less” fair an argument, for anybody else….especially the Palestinians !

    The Bottom line…nobody deserves to be expelled from their homes OR exterminated…even if nobody “cares” about them !

    That should be the one true and lasting lesson of the Holocaust…It is in my book !

    A compensation package to the Palestinians..and a big one…is needed for any people to accept “they can never go home again !”

    I would like to know the number the World Community and Israel has in mind?

    Perhaps the world community could add a “universal visa”… a right to live or work anywhere , for Palestinians….that would seem to add a real acknowledgement to their willingness to permanently forsake their homeland !

    If the Palestinians won’t accept that and they don’t have to…

    .What choice does Israel have but to kill them ?
    They cannot quarantine them forever….
    Which is why the quarantining takes on an asphyxiating quality over time…a slow death born out of the intransigence of the deadlock combined with Israels overwhelming military superiority !

    The Gaza “exterminations”, over the past six years, are a manifestation of the resulting violence from that impasse !

    Given the undeniable FACT that “quarantined Gaza” and its inhabitants represent ZERO threat to Israel, militarily, the carnage wrought on Gaza is an expression of Israels ‘exhaustion with the “process’ and its desire to hasten a result…It is an expression of Israeli “self determination”…Not SELF DEFENSE….Sorry, bogus again !

    As a matter of fact it makes MORE sense, given the obscene disparity in each sides “hurting power” for Israelis to dig tunnels into Gaza, pretend to be Jihadists, and fire a few dozen rockets into the fields of Sderot…. to initiate the conflict..than it does for the starving and emaciated Palestinians !

    As to your argument about Gaza representing nothing that Israel might COVET…. Hmm….I am sure there are dozens of land developers waiting in the wings to put in(well connected) bids on new Israeli seaside resorts in what was once” Gaza”……And , may I add, it is well documented that British Gas was able to find, on behalf of Palestine, the largest deposit of natural gas within the entire region….inside Gaza territorial waters !…But that was before Palestinians were restricted from entering their own patch of Sea !….There is much to” covet” in Gaza…were the Palestinians to “disappear’ from the scene !

    I find it fascinating , labayu, that when seeking to equate Palestinian expulsion, of all things ,you chose German expulsion from Poland post WWII, as though Germany had not invaded and occupied Poland during the war and sought its expansive Lebensraum (living space) from the “inferior” Polish “Untermenchen”…much the same way Israel is expanding its Lebensraum into much of the Palestinian ‘Untermenchen” territories today….not a good fit , Labayu !

    Perhaps the Post -Zionist ideology, and its “humanist’ position centering on “equal rights for all” is becoming most attractive to all those who find the brutal treatment of the Palestinians completely unconscionable…and intolerable…..Better to have a real democracy, where a bill of rights is centered on the Individual, not their ethnicity, ( like the good ole USA, at least pre 9-11) then to have another Holocaust of Palestinians or Jews !

    In so many ways, it makes a lot of sense !

    Read More
    • Replies: @Labayu
    You responded as if I was making a moral argument, but I wasn’t. My point is that since Israelis don't believe that there will ever be a return of refugees to Israel, that belief or concern doesn’t motivate their actions. It doesn’t make any sense that they would take actions that damage their diplomatic standing in order to forestall something they believe will never happen anyway.

    Since I wasn't making a moral argument, I certainly wasn't claiming that two wrongs make a right. My point was as I said, Palestinians are the only people in the world that inherit their refugee status over generations. As far as the UN is concerned, all the world’s refugees fall under the jurisdiction of the UNHCR except Palestinians which are managed by the separate UNRWA. Whereas the UNHCR’s finds homes for refugees so that they can move on with their lives, the UNRWA keeps the Palestinians in a state of permanent victimhood over the span of multiple generations.

    Without getting into the details of why (which should be obvious), the bottom line is that any Israeli ruling government has to react to the rockets, or else they will be voted out of office and replaced by people who will. No other explanation is really necessary.


    I find it fascinating , labayu, that when seeking to equate Palestinian expulsion, of all things ,you chose German expulsion from Poland post WWII, as though Germany had not invaded and occupied Poland during the war and sought its expansive Lebensraum (living space) from the “inferior” Polish “Untermenchen”…much the same way Israel is expanding its Lebensraum into much of the Palestinian ‘Untermenchen” territories today….not a good fit , Labayu !
     
    I chose that example because the ethnic Germans fled or were driven out at about the same time as the Palestinians fled or were driven out. There are many parallels. Silesia, Pomerania, and Prussia had been home to Germans since the Middle Ages. Though the inhabitants were thoroughly German in their identity, they were probably descendants of both the invading Germans and local people, just as the Arabs of Palestine identify as Arabs despite descending from both the invaders and the local people. Germany did invade Poland just as the Arab armies invaded the Jewish held areas of Palestine, both Germany and the Arabs lost and civilians who may or may not have been involved in the fighting lost their homes. Poles only became the predominant ethnic group in Silesia, Pomerania, and Prussia in the late 1940s when the Germans lost their home. Silesia and Pomerania had not been Polish since the early Middle Ages, just as Palestine had not been Jewish since ancient times other than a few communities. The difference is that Germany took in the ethnic Germans refugees, while the Arab countries mostly kept the Arab refugees in camps.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Dear Labayu,

    It is a good question...perhaps this synopsis provides the answer.

    Gaza's population is composed of roughly 1.7 million people, 70% of whom are refugees or descendants of refugees from what we know as Israel today....

    Over 1.2 million Palestinians within Gaza are in possession of the full legal right to return home to Israel.

    The Demographic "catastrophe" to Israels Jewish majority were all Palestinians allowed to return , would effectively lead to the "end of the Jewish State" ....No longer in command of a Majority, Jewish self determination ( the right to control their own destiny) would dissolve!

    The refugee population in Gaza represents a sizeable portion of all Palestinian refugees..

    The "Right of Return " for Palestinian refugees is enshrined in international law..

    Israel has been UNABLE to overturn or liquidate that law...

    The Palestinians refuse to relinquish that 'right".

    If you cannot remove the "right of return" from the Palestinian...remove the Palestinian !

    Israels "calculus" is to liquidate" the refugees'!

    It is an extremely cruel and brutal Logic....but it is a "logic' all the same !

    The bombing of all the hospitals, the UN facilities, the schools and the people is an expression, not only of Israels exasperation with the" Refugee Threat"...but with the United Nations and the laws that empower their status.......

    Israels goal , Labayu, is culling the herd....culling the herd of Palestinian "refugees".

    Leaving hospitals unbombed undermines the entire enterprise of that "liquidation "...It is giving the "wounded"refugees a chance to heal....not to die !

    I didn't say it was pretty,I didn't say it wasn't evil, or horrible, but it is a synopsis that provides an answer !

    The problem with that angle is that Gaza doesn’t present a demographic threat to Israel in that Israelis don’t believe that the right of return will ever be implemented beyond possibility of paying reparations. Furthermore the number of Palestinians killed in the conflict is large from a humanitarian perspective, but insignificant compared to the total population. Certainly the civilian deaths are more damaging to Israel’s status in the court of world opinion than they would be beneficial to any other agenda.

    Unlike the West Bank, Gaza is also not particularly important to even the religious Zionist ideology or seen as essential to Israel’s security. While the West Bank includes the high ground overlooking the entirety of Israel’s major population and economic centres situated along the relatively narrow coastal plain, threats from Gaza are more manageable for them. As such there is almost no internal political pressure on Israel to annex Gaza. Hence, Gazans don’t create a perceived demographic threat to Israel.

    Gaza’s population may include 1.7 million descendants of refugees from what is now the state of Israel. Israel’s Jewish population is about half descended from Jews who fled or were driven out of Arab (and to a lesser extent other) Muslim countries. That is the argument Israel will use, and they believe it is reasonable, which is all that really matters in assessing their intentions.

    No government really cares that much about the Palestinians other than as political pawns or distractions from their own corrupt behavior, otherwise they wouldn’t be the only population in the world that is kept in continual hereditary refugee status even in places like Jordan and Lebanon. Between 1944 and 1950, many more Germans fled or were driven out of Poland than Palestinians who fled or were driven out of Israel in 1948 to 1949. The difference is that the two Germanys simply granted them citizenship rather than forcing them to be perpetual refugees. The same can be said for Jews who fled to Israel from Egypt, Iraq, and so forth.

    Finkelstein’s claims here remind me of the claims of a graduate student I know who is arguing in her MA thesis that US policy in the Middle East is actually a long term plan to commit genocide against Arabs. It’s the same sort of convoluted appeal to emotion when much more simple explanations exist. For the Israeli leadership, there is immediate internal political pressure to make the rockets stop whenever there is a flair up. Fighting very carefully building to building on Hamas’s home turf would negate Israel’s technological advantage and lead to very high Israeli casualties, so airstrikes and occasionally artillery are also employed. If you do some research, you’ll find that Israel’s enemy combatant to civilian kill ratios are similar to those of Western armies fighting similar enemies in urban environments.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Dear Labayu,

    I think at this juncture in time, the sacrosanct quality of Jewish self determination, post Holocaust, is overpowering.

    There is no way that Israel will relinquish the control it has over its destiny by submitting to an influx of six millions Palestinian refugees....It just is not going to happen !

    But that does not negate the right the Palestinians have to return to the homes they were forced out of .....That right belongs to them, not the Jewish people and not the Jewish state !

    The fact that Israel will refuse to permit it does not abrogate its existence !

    The idea that "Israel doesn't believe in something" doesn't just make that" something "go away.!

    But" exterminating" the Palestinians sure does !

    Do you see my point, Labayu ?

    .Your next point...The fact that Jews were expelled from Germany , Egypt, Iraq, or wherever else, has little to do with the" Palestinian Expulsion" or Nakba.....Jewish expulsion from those areas was not a result of any"intentionality " on the part of Palestinians.....Two wrongs don't make a right....Its a bogus (Cat in the hat )argument, Labayu , and it always was !

    The suggestion that people don't really "care" about Palestinians, even if it were true...means what?...that their permanent "statelessness" is acceptable?.Why wouldn't, for that matter, their extermination be acceptable too?..That is like saying the Holocaust was acceptable because nobody really "cared "about the Jews....Another bogus argument !

    Israels "real" argument is a good one.!....."NEVER AGAIN !"......and they mean it.!...Jewish self determination is non negotiable......They will fight and Kill before they give up the right to control their own destiny !

    Fair enough !

    If it is 'a fair enough" argument for Israel (and it is ) than how can it be somehow "Less" fair an argument, for anybody else....especially the Palestinians !

    The Bottom line...nobody deserves to be expelled from their homes OR exterminated...even if nobody "cares" about them !


    That should be the one true and lasting lesson of the Holocaust...It is in my book !

    A compensation package to the Palestinians..and a big one...is needed for any people to accept "they can never go home again !"

    I would like to know the number the World Community and Israel has in mind?

    Perhaps the world community could add a "universal visa"... a right to live or work anywhere , for Palestinians....that would seem to add a real acknowledgement to their willingness to permanently forsake their homeland !

    If the Palestinians won't accept that and they don't have to...

    .What choice does Israel have but to kill them ?
    They cannot quarantine them forever....
    Which is why the quarantining takes on an asphyxiating quality over time...a slow death born out of the intransigence of the deadlock combined with Israels overwhelming military superiority !

    The Gaza "exterminations", over the past six years, are a manifestation of the resulting violence from that impasse !

    Given the undeniable FACT that "quarantined Gaza" and its inhabitants represent ZERO threat to Israel, militarily, the carnage wrought on Gaza is an expression of Israels 'exhaustion with the "process' and its desire to hasten a result...It is an expression of Israeli "self determination"...Not SELF DEFENSE....Sorry, bogus again !

    As a matter of fact it makes MORE sense, given the obscene disparity in each sides "hurting power" for Israelis to dig tunnels into Gaza, pretend to be Jihadists, and fire a few dozen rockets into the fields of Sderot.... to initiate the conflict..than it does for the starving and emaciated Palestinians !

    As to your argument about Gaza representing nothing that Israel might COVET.... Hmm....I am sure there are dozens of land developers waiting in the wings to put in(well connected) bids on new Israeli seaside resorts in what was once" Gaza"......And , may I add, it is well documented that British Gas was able to find, on behalf of Palestine, the largest deposit of natural gas within the entire region....inside Gaza territorial waters !...But that was before Palestinians were restricted from entering their own patch of Sea !....There is much to" covet" in Gaza...were the Palestinians to "disappear' from the scene !

    I find it fascinating , labayu, that when seeking to equate Palestinian expulsion, of all things ,you chose German expulsion from Poland post WWII, as though Germany had not invaded and occupied Poland during the war and sought its expansive Lebensraum (living space) from the "inferior" Polish "Untermenchen"...much the same way Israel is expanding its Lebensraum into much of the Palestinian 'Untermenchen" territories today....not a good fit , Labayu !



    Perhaps the Post -Zionist ideology, and its "humanist' position centering on "equal rights for all" is becoming most attractive to all those who find the brutal treatment of the Palestinians completely unconscionable...and intolerable.....Better to have a real democracy, where a bill of rights is centered on the Individual, not their ethnicity, ( like the good ole USA, at least pre 9-11) then to have another Holocaust of Palestinians or Jews !

    In so many ways, it makes a lot of sense !
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Amnesty International is among the premier human rights organizations in the world. Its pronouncements shape public opinion, while councils of state feel obliged if not to heed them at any rate to respond. A movement for justice aspiring to reach a broad public and inflect state policy can ill afford to ignore Amnesty if and...
  • @geokat62

    The Torah makes it clear that any nation that makes war on the Jewish people is destined for extermination and has no human rights.
     
    What if the Germans had their own Torah that made it clear that any nation that made war on the German people was destined for extermination and had no human rights? Would that make it right?

    Judea Declares War on Germany - 1933 Newspaper headline.

    http://guardian.150m.com/jews/jews-declare-war.htm

    Here, have a graphic

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    • Replies: @geokat62
    Thanks
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Amnesty’s citation of official Israeli sources produces skewed results that validate Israeli propaganda at Hamas’s expense. In some instances more credible contrary evidence is simply ignored. In its hyperbolic inventory of Hamas’s arsenal, Amnesty quotes the Israeli allegation that it intercepted a vessel carrying Iranian rockets “bound for Gaza.” It omits the widely reported finding...
  • @Labayu
    The problem Finkelstein's narrative here is the lack of explanatory motive for Israel's actions. What benefit would Israel gain from targeting hospitals?

    I cannot assume you are serious here.
    Hospitals or killing women & children who throw stones at tanks, it’s all the same objective.
    What the immoral Israelis gain is killing more Palestinians in a Zionist ethnic cleansing campaign to eliminate – exterminate the indigenous population and thereby take possession of their land and resources.

    Want to talk about that big gas field just off the coast of Gaza?

    Read More
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  • @Labayu
    The problem Finkelstein's narrative here is the lack of explanatory motive for Israel's actions. What benefit would Israel gain from targeting hospitals?

    Dear Labayu,

    It is a good question…perhaps this synopsis provides the answer.

    Gaza’s population is composed of roughly 1.7 million people, 70% of whom are refugees or descendants of refugees from what we know as Israel today….

    Over 1.2 million Palestinians within Gaza are in possession of the full legal right to return home to Israel.

    The Demographic “catastrophe” to Israels Jewish majority were all Palestinians allowed to return , would effectively lead to the “end of the Jewish State” ….No longer in command of a Majority, Jewish self determination ( the right to control their own destiny) would dissolve!

    The refugee population in Gaza represents a sizeable portion of all Palestinian refugees..

    The “Right of Return ” for Palestinian refugees is enshrined in international law..

    Israel has been UNABLE to overturn or liquidate that law…

    The Palestinians refuse to relinquish that ‘right”.

    If you cannot remove the “right of return” from the Palestinian…remove the Palestinian !

    Israels “calculus” is to liquidate” the refugees’!

    It is an extremely cruel and brutal Logic….but it is a “logic’ all the same !

    The bombing of all the hospitals, the UN facilities, the schools and the people is an expression, not only of Israels exasperation with the” Refugee Threat”…but with the United Nations and the laws that empower their status…….

    Israels goal , Labayu, is culling the herd….culling the herd of Palestinian “refugees”.

    Leaving hospitals unbombed undermines the entire enterprise of that “liquidation “…It is giving the “wounded”refugees a chance to heal….not to die !

    I didn’t say it was pretty,I didn’t say it wasn’t evil, or horrible, but it is a synopsis that provides an answer !

    Read More
    • Replies: @Labayu
    The problem with that angle is that Gaza doesn't present a demographic threat to Israel in that Israelis don't believe that the right of return will ever be implemented beyond possibility of paying reparations. Furthermore the number of Palestinians killed in the conflict is large from a humanitarian perspective, but insignificant compared to the total population. Certainly the civilian deaths are more damaging to Israel's status in the court of world opinion than they would be beneficial to any other agenda.

    Unlike the West Bank, Gaza is also not particularly important to even the religious Zionist ideology or seen as essential to Israel's security. While the West Bank includes the high ground overlooking the entirety of Israel's major population and economic centres situated along the relatively narrow coastal plain, threats from Gaza are more manageable for them. As such there is almost no internal political pressure on Israel to annex Gaza. Hence, Gazans don't create a perceived demographic threat to Israel.

    Gaza's population may include 1.7 million descendants of refugees from what is now the state of Israel. Israel's Jewish population is about half descended from Jews who fled or were driven out of Arab (and to a lesser extent other) Muslim countries. That is the argument Israel will use, and they believe it is reasonable, which is all that really matters in assessing their intentions.

    No government really cares that much about the Palestinians other than as political pawns or distractions from their own corrupt behavior, otherwise they wouldn't be the only population in the world that is kept in continual hereditary refugee status even in places like Jordan and Lebanon. Between 1944 and 1950, many more Germans fled or were driven out of Poland than Palestinians who fled or were driven out of Israel in 1948 to 1949. The difference is that the two Germanys simply granted them citizenship rather than forcing them to be perpetual refugees. The same can be said for Jews who fled to Israel from Egypt, Iraq, and so forth.

    Finkelstein's claims here remind me of the claims of a graduate student I know who is arguing in her MA thesis that US policy in the Middle East is actually a long term plan to commit genocide against Arabs. It's the same sort of convoluted appeal to emotion when much more simple explanations exist. For the Israeli leadership, there is immediate internal political pressure to make the rockets stop whenever there is a flair up. Fighting very carefully building to building on Hamas's home turf would negate Israel's technological advantage and lead to very high Israeli casualties, so airstrikes and occasionally artillery are also employed. If you do some research, you'll find that Israel's enemy combatant to civilian kill ratios are similar to those of Western armies fighting similar enemies in urban environments.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Amnesty International is among the premier human rights organizations in the world. Its pronouncements shape public opinion, while councils of state feel obliged if not to heed them at any rate to respond. A movement for justice aspiring to reach a broad public and inflect state policy can ill afford to ignore Amnesty if and...
  • @szopen
    You have also estimations for various other events. Whenever you read in hsitory book that "30.000 people died" or "300.000 people died" it's mostly like an estimation.

    But still you have to account for the fact that before war we had 3 millions Jews in Poland alone, and after war some 200-300 thousand. And they had very, very high natural growth. Were they are? Are they all hiding somewhere?

    @3 millions Jews in Poland alone…Are they all hiding somewhere?

    In actual fact, yes.
    The Jews from Poland lived mainly in the Eastern part, occupied by the Soviets in 1939. At the beginning of the war in Russia, they have been evacuated to the East (Urals, Kazakhstan). The figure acknowledged by the American Jewish Council for Russian Relief is TWO MILLION. They all returned and pursued their journey to the West (maybe… Palestine?).
    The number of Jews in Europe in 1939 was 6,500,000
    The number of Jews in the Soviet Union in 1945 was 5,800,000 of which 2,200,000 who have “migrated to escape the Nazis”!
    Exterminated 6,000,000
    Number of Jews claiming indemnity from Germany in 1965 3,500,000.
    Strange mathematics! But maybe indeed the “ovens were incubators”.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Amnesty’s citation of official Israeli sources produces skewed results that validate Israeli propaganda at Hamas’s expense. In some instances more credible contrary evidence is simply ignored. In its hyperbolic inventory of Hamas’s arsenal, Amnesty quotes the Israeli allegation that it intercepted a vessel carrying Iranian rockets “bound for Gaza.” It omits the widely reported finding...
  • The problem Finkelstein’s narrative here is the lack of explanatory motive for Israel’s actions. What benefit would Israel gain from targeting hospitals?

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Dear Labayu,

    It is a good question...perhaps this synopsis provides the answer.

    Gaza's population is composed of roughly 1.7 million people, 70% of whom are refugees or descendants of refugees from what we know as Israel today....

    Over 1.2 million Palestinians within Gaza are in possession of the full legal right to return home to Israel.

    The Demographic "catastrophe" to Israels Jewish majority were all Palestinians allowed to return , would effectively lead to the "end of the Jewish State" ....No longer in command of a Majority, Jewish self determination ( the right to control their own destiny) would dissolve!

    The refugee population in Gaza represents a sizeable portion of all Palestinian refugees..

    The "Right of Return " for Palestinian refugees is enshrined in international law..

    Israel has been UNABLE to overturn or liquidate that law...

    The Palestinians refuse to relinquish that 'right".

    If you cannot remove the "right of return" from the Palestinian...remove the Palestinian !

    Israels "calculus" is to liquidate" the refugees'!

    It is an extremely cruel and brutal Logic....but it is a "logic' all the same !

    The bombing of all the hospitals, the UN facilities, the schools and the people is an expression, not only of Israels exasperation with the" Refugee Threat"...but with the United Nations and the laws that empower their status.......

    Israels goal , Labayu, is culling the herd....culling the herd of Palestinian "refugees".

    Leaving hospitals unbombed undermines the entire enterprise of that "liquidation "...It is giving the "wounded"refugees a chance to heal....not to die !

    I didn't say it was pretty,I didn't say it wasn't evil, or horrible, but it is a synopsis that provides an answer !
    , @Wally
    I cannot assume you are serious here.
    Hospitals or killing women & children who throw stones at tanks, it's all the same objective.
    What the immoral Israelis gain is killing more Palestinians in a Zionist ethnic cleansing campaign to eliminate - exterminate the indigenous population and thereby take possession of their land and resources.

    Want to talk about that big gas field just off the coast of Gaza?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Stogie
    Your pro-Islam bias is disturbing, and I can only conclude that you are, in fact, antisemitic. I have linked you at my blog because of your support for Confederate heritage, which I wholeheartedly support. However, I will be watching you and will not hesitate to erase that link should your anti-Israel, pro-terrorist articles continue.

    ANTI-SEMITE VERSUS ANTI-HUMAN?

    Thanks for the great article, Dr. Finkelstein. Excellent work!

    Like they say, the proof is in the pudding—Israelis killed Palestinians more than the other way round. Here is the finally tally in the graphics on the main page here:

    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

    And it abused its super power abilities in oppressing Palestinians, who are basically without any credible weapons. This is asymmetric warfare, 21st century modern weapons versus basically bare hands and stones.

    Israel is a nuclear power which owns and operates another nuclear power, the USA, a banana republic under Jewish control, from which it loots 10 million dollars per day (ibid). This “foreign aid” is actually looting as the politicians are threatened and blackmailed, unless they pay the Judaists and Israel money, disguised as “financial aid”, bogus grants, etc. as below.

    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/freetrips.html

    What the Jewish media does not tell you is how the congressmen are “softened up” when taken to Israel, then placed at the wailing wall, and a skullcap is placed on their head and a photo taken to denote their ownership by the Jewish lobby.

    As far as your opinion of Mr. Finkelstein, you are entitled to your opinion, but in the eyes of many, he is a hero. He suffered tremendous damage to his career and was illegally fired from DePaul University for speaking out against Jewish evil and has suffered significant financial losses. The fact that the Judaists would do that, get people fired for speaking, shows that they are people without morals or culture and anti-human.

    You can “watch” Dr. Finkelstein, but the whole world is watching the Judaists and Israel and are realizing more and more that they are uncivilized and anti-human sociopaths. Israel and Judaists are becoming the pariahs of the civilized world.

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  • Sounds like the hospital was a constant PITA for Israeli forces. Terrorists knew Israel would hesitate to fire on it, the terrorists would use the building as a safe haven and the people inside as unwitting human shields.

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  • Your pro-Islam bias is disturbing, and I can only conclude that you are, in fact, antisemitic. I have linked you at my blog because of your support for Confederate heritage, which I wholeheartedly support. However, I will be watching you and will not hesitate to erase that link should your anti-Israel, pro-terrorist articles continue.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Tom_R
    ANTI-SEMITE VERSUS ANTI-HUMAN?

    Thanks for the great article, Dr. Finkelstein. Excellent work!

    Like they say, the proof is in the pudding—Israelis killed Palestinians more than the other way round. Here is the finally tally in the graphics on the main page here:

    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

    And it abused its super power abilities in oppressing Palestinians, who are basically without any credible weapons. This is asymmetric warfare, 21st century modern weapons versus basically bare hands and stones.

    Israel is a nuclear power which owns and operates another nuclear power, the USA, a banana republic under Jewish control, from which it loots 10 million dollars per day (ibid). This “foreign aid” is actually looting as the politicians are threatened and blackmailed, unless they pay the Judaists and Israel money, disguised as "financial aid", bogus grants, etc. as below.

    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/freetrips.html

    What the Jewish media does not tell you is how the congressmen are “softened up” when taken to Israel, then placed at the wailing wall, and a skullcap is placed on their head and a photo taken to denote their ownership by the Jewish lobby.

    As far as your opinion of Mr. Finkelstein, you are entitled to your opinion, but in the eyes of many, he is a hero. He suffered tremendous damage to his career and was illegally fired from DePaul University for speaking out against Jewish evil and has suffered significant financial losses. The fact that the Judaists would do that, get people fired for speaking, shows that they are people without morals or culture and anti-human.

    You can “watch” Dr. Finkelstein, but the whole world is watching the Judaists and Israel and are realizing more and more that they are uncivilized and anti-human sociopaths. Israel and Judaists are becoming the pariahs of the civilized world.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Amnesty International is among the premier human rights organizations in the world. Its pronouncements shape public opinion, while councils of state feel obliged if not to heed them at any rate to respond. A movement for justice aspiring to reach a broad public and inflect state policy can ill afford to ignore Amnesty if and...
  • @Ozymandias
    @Anna
    I know nothing of Bibi's claim, the truth of the situation has been readily apparent for some time, to those who care to look. Tell me, is it your opinion that when the Palestinians elected Hamas, they were too stupid to know what they were voting for?

    @Orville
    Have at it. Drink plenty of water first.

    You mean, when the Jewish Ghettos inhabitants allowed themselves to rebel they did it only because they wanted to harm their children? “Between 1941 and 1943, underground resistance movements developed in approximately 100 ghettos in Nazi-occupied eastern Europe… The Jews knew that uprisings would not stop the Germans and that only a handful of fighters would succeed in escaping to join the partisans. Still, some Jews made the decision to resist. Weapons were smuggled into ghettos.”

    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005407

    Bibi’s indecent characterization, ““telegenically dead:”

    http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/telegenic-israels-crumbling

    Some details of the history of Hamas: “How Israel helped create Hamas”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

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  • To justify its unchecked violence in Gaza, Israel invariably spotlights the arsenal of rockets Hamas allegedly amassed. Amnesty echoes this story line. Thus, the reader learns from Unlawful and Deadly that, as far back as 2001, Hamas had been stockpiling short-range rockets; that it then “developed longer-range Qassam rockets”; that “in more recent years, armed...
  • anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Palestinians used U.N. facilities to store their rockets.
    Palestinians used U.N. facilities as launch platforms.
    Palestinians used U.N. facilities as bomb shelters.

    So it’s the UN who is in partnership with the Palestinians in order to attack Israel? Allowing them to use bomb shelters so they don’t die in yet another Israeli air attack is bad?

    due to your rabid antisemitism.

    Equating being critical of the actions of Israeli hardliners with antisemitism is an old gimmick by now and no longer works around here. It’s all old hat by now, things to say to squelch discussion. Basically, it’s hard to justify 500 dead children; doesn’t keep people from trying though.

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  • Amnesty International is among the premier human rights organizations in the world. Its pronouncements shape public opinion, while councils of state feel obliged if not to heed them at any rate to respond. A movement for justice aspiring to reach a broad public and inflect state policy can ill afford to ignore Amnesty if and...
  • @Anna
    I know nothing of Bibi’s claim, the truth of the situation has been readily apparent for some time, to those who care to look. Tell me, is it your opinion that when the Palestinians elected Hamas, they were too stupid to know what they were voting for?

    @Orville
    Have at it. Drink plenty of water first.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    You mean, when the Jewish Ghettos inhabitants allowed themselves to rebel they did it only because they wanted to harm their children? "Between 1941 and 1943, underground resistance movements developed in approximately 100 ghettos in Nazi-occupied eastern Europe... The Jews knew that uprisings would not stop the Germans and that only a handful of fighters would succeed in escaping to join the partisans. Still, some Jews made the decision to resist. Weapons were smuggled into ghettos."
    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005407
    Bibi's indecent characterization, "“telegenically dead:"
    http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/telegenic-israels-crumbling
    Some details of the history of Hamas: "How Israel helped create Hamas"
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html
    http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @szopen
    You have also estimations for various other events. Whenever you read in hsitory book that "30.000 people died" or "300.000 people died" it's mostly like an estimation.

    But still you have to account for the fact that before war we had 3 millions Jews in Poland alone, and after war some 200-300 thousand. And they had very, very high natural growth. Were they are? Are they all hiding somewhere?

    Don’t you find a strange coincidence that the same figure pops up at two identical trials? Were did those figures come from? And both well under the million mark?
    The trouble is that registers of death certificates have survived. Captured in 1945 by the Red Army, which “liberated” the already deserted camp, they have been kept in the Soviet archives and made known in 1989 (46 volumes spanning the years 1941, 42, 43. Inmate deaths at Auschwitz were recorded by the camp authorities on certificates that were bound in dozens of death registry volumes. The extant registers document (with all the German pedantic meticulosity) 67,227 deaths. To these, researchers added an additional 63,069 extrapolated deaths. So, it would appear that the total death toll at Auschwitz/Birkenau is less than 150,000.
    All the other “estimations” are based on the “confessions” and “affidavits” of Rudolf Hoss. Or on the memories of Elie Wiesel, who strangely enough chose to leave the camp with the Germans, although he was in hospital and the Germans left behind all the sick.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • To justify its unchecked violence in Gaza, Israel invariably spotlights the arsenal of rockets Hamas allegedly amassed. Amnesty echoes this story line. Thus, the reader learns from Unlawful and Deadly that, as far back as 2001, Hamas had been stockpiling short-range rockets; that it then “developed longer-range Qassam rockets”; that “in more recent years, armed...
  • Palestinians used U.N. facilities to store their rockets.
    Palestinians used U.N. facilities as launch platforms.
    Palestinians used U.N. facilities as bomb shelters.

    The results here are pretty easy to predict, but you fell for it due to your rabid antisemitism.

    And the point with the name was that I took the time to register because I post here all the time. You didn’t register because you’re only trolling. Or perhaps you’re just one of those challenged individuals who throws out the “troll” defense whenever anyone disagrees with you – because it’s all you’ve got. It’s an impotent strategy, but it was still better than your “Hitler groupie” nonsense.

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  • Amnesty International is among the premier human rights organizations in the world. Its pronouncements shape public opinion, while councils of state feel obliged if not to heed them at any rate to respond. A movement for justice aspiring to reach a broad public and inflect state policy can ill afford to ignore Amnesty if and...
  • @Seraphim
    @final count... more recent research and numbers.

    Here are more recent numbers:

    LUENEBURG, Germany – A former SS officer known as the Bookkeeper of Auschwitz said he was "very sorry" for his time stationed at the Nazi death camp, ahead of a verdict in Germany expected on Wednesday.
    Groening has been on trial since April, accused of 300,000 counts of accessory to murder in the cases of deported Hungarian Jews sent to the gas chambers between May and July 1944.
    @http://www.enca.com/world/bookkeeper-auschwitz-trial-verdict-expected

    300,ooo!!!

    "Estimates provided by Buszko at the end of his article on Auschwitz, which appeared in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust:
    Of the 405,000 registered prisoners, 65,000 survived
    Of the 16,000 Soviet POW's, 96 survived
    Various estimates suggest 1.6 million were murdered"
    @http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-09.html

    So, the numbers in the first trial of the guards at Auschwitz (Krakow 1948) gives 300,000
    The second (of the Bookeeper - who is 94yo) gives the same figure.
    And registered were 405,000!
    All the rest are "estimations" of what should have happen!

    You have also estimations for various other events. Whenever you read in hsitory book that “30.000 people died” or “300.000 people died” it’s mostly like an estimation.

    But still you have to account for the fact that before war we had 3 millions Jews in Poland alone, and after war some 200-300 thousand. And they had very, very high natural growth. Were they are? Are they all hiding somewhere?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Don't you find a strange coincidence that the same figure pops up at two identical trials? Were did those figures come from? And both well under the million mark?
    The trouble is that registers of death certificates have survived. Captured in 1945 by the Red Army, which "liberated" the already deserted camp, they have been kept in the Soviet archives and made known in 1989 (46 volumes spanning the years 1941, 42, 43. Inmate deaths at Auschwitz were recorded by the camp authorities on certificates that were bound in dozens of death registry volumes. The extant registers document (with all the German pedantic meticulosity) 67,227 deaths. To these, researchers added an additional 63,069 extrapolated deaths. So, it would appear that the total death toll at Auschwitz/Birkenau is less than 150,000.
    All the other "estimations" are based on the "confessions" and "affidavits" of Rudolf Hoss. Or on the memories of Elie Wiesel, who strangely enough chose to leave the camp with the Germans, although he was in hospital and the Germans left behind all the sick.
    , @Seraphim
    @3 millions Jews in Poland alone...Are they all hiding somewhere?

    In actual fact, yes.
    The Jews from Poland lived mainly in the Eastern part, occupied by the Soviets in 1939. At the beginning of the war in Russia, they have been evacuated to the East (Urals, Kazakhstan). The figure acknowledged by the American Jewish Council for Russian Relief is TWO MILLION. They all returned and pursued their journey to the West (maybe... Palestine?).
    The number of Jews in Europe in 1939 was 6,500,000
    The number of Jews in the Soviet Union in 1945 was 5,800,000 of which 2,200,000 who have "migrated to escape the Nazis"!
    Exterminated 6,000,000
    Number of Jews claiming indemnity from Germany in 1965 3,500,000.
    Strange mathematics! But maybe indeed the "ovens were incubators".
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • To justify its unchecked violence in Gaza, Israel invariably spotlights the arsenal of rockets Hamas allegedly amassed. Amnesty echoes this story line. Thus, the reader learns from Unlawful and Deadly that, as far back as 2001, Hamas had been stockpiling short-range rockets; that it then “developed longer-range Qassam rockets”; that “in more recent years, armed...
  • anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Ozymandias
    "You’re just retailing the same tired old propaganda line. Just lie lie lie, that’s all you trolls ever do."

    I'm going to assume you meant "reiterating." It's also clear that you have no valid rebuttal to offer. And if I'm the troll, why are you the anonymous one?

    Manipulating your enemy into killing civilians and then trying to claim the moral high ground is a despicable act, no matter who is performing it.

    And if I’m the troll, why are you the anonymous one?

    Is “Ozmandias” your actual name or is it a handle? If it’s the latter then you’re also anonymous; give your full real name then, “Ozmandias”.

    Manipulating your enemy into killing civilians and then trying to claim the moral high ground is a despicable act, no matter who is performing it.

    Palestinian rockets occasionally kill Israeli civilians. Does this mean that Israeli soldiers are ‘hiding’ behind them? If an Israeli child is killed does that mean they were “manipulated” into getting killed by the Israeli government so they could “claim the moral high ground”? Rather unlikely yet you’re making those assertions about the Palestinians who supposedly use their own children as sacrificial pawns since they’re a lesser people than the noble Israelis. We get it, the real message behind what you’re saying is that the Palestinians are subhumans who do that sort of thing even to their own children and thus deserve anything bad that happens to them, including being killed or even wiped out. Children killed in their homes, in their beds, were “manipulated” by their own parents. A shameful propaganda lie on a par with all these Hitler groupies who claim he was just misunderstood and really meant well.

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  • Amnesty International is among the premier human rights organizations in the world. Its pronouncements shape public opinion, while councils of state feel obliged if not to heed them at any rate to respond. A movement for justice aspiring to reach a broad public and inflect state policy can ill afford to ignore Amnesty if and...
  • @Ozymandias
    The Palestinians got exactly what they were asking for. They positioned their own children to be slaughtered for the benefit of media coverage. I have nothing but disgust for them. Nor do I agree with the premise that the Israelites are more responsible due to their higher efficiency at defending their interests than the Palestinians have.

    I'll stick with despising specific Jews for their actions against America and Europe.

    Piss on Israel, that criminal, racist Zionist entity.

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  • To justify its unchecked violence in Gaza, Israel invariably spotlights the arsenal of rockets Hamas allegedly amassed. Amnesty echoes this story line. Thus, the reader learns from Unlawful and Deadly that, as far back as 2001, Hamas had been stockpiling short-range rockets; that it then “developed longer-range Qassam rockets”; that “in more recent years, armed...
  • @pork pie hat
    I once saw a picture of Palestinian rocket damage - a dink on a road - juxtaposed with Israeli - a crater 15' across. Of course, you have to give the Israelis that you wouldn't want even inert pipes raining down on your population.

    Oh and, Mr. Unz - good on you for having Norm Finkelstein as a contributor!

    I once saw a picture of Palestinian rocket damage – a dink on a road – juxtaposed with Israeli – a crater 15′ across.

    The Hamas-manufactured M-302 rocket carries an explosive payload of at least 150kg, which is 300 times the 0.5kg payload of Qassam-1 impact you probably saw. It is also almost three times the 57kg payload of the AGM-65s used in Israeli airstrikes. The crater you saw was from the secondary explosions of an ordinance stockpile.

    Instead of making speculations that don’t really make sense, Finkelstein should just go and stand in an open area during the next conflict. I was working on an archeological excavation on a tel overlooking the coastal plain during the last conflict and saw several impacts that could have only been caused by Hamas’ largest rockets.

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  • Amnesty International is among the premier human rights organizations in the world. Its pronouncements shape public opinion, while councils of state feel obliged if not to heed them at any rate to respond. A movement for justice aspiring to reach a broad public and inflect state policy can ill afford to ignore Amnesty if and...
  • “They [Palestinians] positioned their own children to be slaughtered for the benefit of media coverage.”
    Actually, Israeli government prohibits the Palestinian youth from exiting Gaza in order to study abroad or in other part of Palestinian territories. Israeli government prefers exterminating the Palestinian students at their homes.

    http://gisha.org/updates/3939

    http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/children-s-rights/the-right-to-education/background-information-help-palestinians-access-education

    http://www.aaanet.org/issues/policy-advocacy/AAA-Calls-for-Freedom-to-Study-Abroad-for-Palestinians-in-Gaza.cfm

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.570281

    The Gaza Ghetto is used as a cage for humiliating and demoralizing the native population. It is really indecent that you follow Bibi’s claim that it was a fault of Palestinian parents that the Israeli bombardment of the locked Gaza Ghetto produced photogenic corpses of small children.

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  • To justify its unchecked violence in Gaza, Israel invariably spotlights the arsenal of rockets Hamas allegedly amassed. Amnesty echoes this story line. Thus, the reader learns from Unlawful and Deadly that, as far back as 2001, Hamas had been stockpiling short-range rockets; that it then “developed longer-range Qassam rockets”; that “in more recent years, armed...
  • @anonymous

    How about combatants hiding behind civilians so that the enemy will target them? Does that qualify as a war crime as well?
     
    You're just retailing the same tired old propaganda line. Just lie lie lie, that's all you trolls ever do.

    “You’re just retailing the same tired old propaganda line. Just lie lie lie, that’s all you trolls ever do.”

    I’m going to assume you meant “reiterating.” It’s also clear that you have no valid rebuttal to offer. And if I’m the troll, why are you the anonymous one?

    Manipulating your enemy into killing civilians and then trying to claim the moral high ground is a despicable act, no matter who is performing it.

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    • Replies: @anonymous

    And if I’m the troll, why are you the anonymous one?
     
    Is "Ozmandias" your actual name or is it a handle? If it's the latter then you're also anonymous; give your full real name then, "Ozmandias".

    Manipulating your enemy into killing civilians and then trying to claim the moral high ground is a despicable act, no matter who is performing it.
     
    Palestinian rockets occasionally kill Israeli civilians. Does this mean that Israeli soldiers are 'hiding' behind them? If an Israeli child is killed does that mean they were "manipulated" into getting killed by the Israeli government so they could "claim the moral high ground"? Rather unlikely yet you're making those assertions about the Palestinians who supposedly use their own children as sacrificial pawns since they're a lesser people than the noble Israelis. We get it, the real message behind what you're saying is that the Palestinians are subhumans who do that sort of thing even to their own children and thus deserve anything bad that happens to them, including being killed or even wiped out. Children killed in their homes, in their beds, were "manipulated" by their own parents. A shameful propaganda lie on a par with all these Hitler groupies who claim he was just misunderstood and really meant well.
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  • It’s admitted that rockets are being launched into Israel and falling within Israeli territory. However, Israeli retaliation is said to be unjustified or disproportionate because, whether Iron Dome is effective or not, the Palestinian attacks have been ineffectual.

    That may be the dumbest and most morally bankrupt argument I’ve seen at Unz.com.

    Would you shrug it off if your neighbor was doing daily drive-by shootings at your home, but he’s a poor marksman so he never actually hit your daughter?

    Or wouldn’t you escalate retaliation until the guy stops shooting?

    So, has the shooting stopped from Gaza? No?

    Well, then! That might explain why the escalating retaliation continues.

    Peace, love, truth,

    The Grate Deign

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  • @Ozymandias
    "Targeting civilians for what combatants might be doing is a war crime."

    How about combatants hiding behind civilians so that the enemy will target them? Does that qualify as a war crime as well?

    How about combatants hiding behind civilians so that the enemy will target them? Does that qualify as a war crime as well?

    You’re just retailing the same tired old propaganda line. Just lie lie lie, that’s all you trolls ever do.

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    • Replies: @Ozymandias
    "You’re just retailing the same tired old propaganda line. Just lie lie lie, that’s all you trolls ever do."

    I'm going to assume you meant "reiterating." It's also clear that you have no valid rebuttal to offer. And if I'm the troll, why are you the anonymous one?

    Manipulating your enemy into killing civilians and then trying to claim the moral high ground is a despicable act, no matter who is performing it.
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  • @anonymous
    Gaza is not a very large place yet it had about $2B worth of munitions expended upon it. The number of dead and amount of damage done means that very many residents had a family member, friend or neighbor who was killed, wounded or made homeless by the onslaught. This doesn't make many friends, which is an understatement. This wasn't just a military operation targeting relatively ineffectual guerrillas but was retribution against the entire population, punishing them for having them in their midst. Targeting civilians for what combatants might be doing is a war crime

    “Targeting civilians for what combatants might be doing is a war crime.”

    How about combatants hiding behind civilians so that the enemy will target them? Does that qualify as a war crime as well?

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    • Replies: @anonymous

    How about combatants hiding behind civilians so that the enemy will target them? Does that qualify as a war crime as well?
     
    You're just retailing the same tired old propaganda line. Just lie lie lie, that's all you trolls ever do.
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  • So, the Palestinians are so damned stupid that they’re shooting bottle rockets at someone who will return fire in earnest? If you were trying to draw sympathy here, you’ve widely missed the mark.

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  • anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Gaza is not a very large place yet it had about $2B worth of munitions expended upon it. The number of dead and amount of damage done means that very many residents had a family member, friend or neighbor who was killed, wounded or made homeless by the onslaught. This doesn’t make many friends, which is an understatement. This wasn’t just a military operation targeting relatively ineffectual guerrillas but was retribution against the entire population, punishing them for having them in their midst. Targeting civilians for what combatants might be doing is a war crime

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    • Replies: @Ozymandias
    "Targeting civilians for what combatants might be doing is a war crime."

    How about combatants hiding behind civilians so that the enemy will target them? Does that qualify as a war crime as well?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Amnesty International is among the premier human rights organizations in the world. Its pronouncements shape public opinion, while councils of state feel obliged if not to heed them at any rate to respond. A movement for justice aspiring to reach a broad public and inflect state policy can ill afford to ignore Amnesty if and...
  • The Palestinians got exactly what they were asking for. They positioned their own children to be slaughtered for the benefit of media coverage. I have nothing but disgust for them. Nor do I agree with the premise that the Israelites are more responsible due to their higher efficiency at defending their interests than the Palestinians have.

    I’ll stick with despising specific Jews for their actions against America and Europe.

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    • Replies: @Orville H. Larson
    Piss on Israel, that criminal, racist Zionist entity.
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  • @joe webb
    So, Seraphim, is this the final count and is it reliable and how many jews vs. gentiles....?


    Quite a few years since 1989 and the holocaust deniers keep working on the thing and there must be some more recent research and numbers.
    thanks, Joe Webb

    @final count… more recent research and numbers.

    Here are more recent numbers:

    LUENEBURG, Germany – A former SS officer known as the Bookkeeper of Auschwitz said he was “very sorry” for his time stationed at the Nazi death camp, ahead of a verdict in Germany expected on Wednesday.
    Groening has been on trial since April, accused of 300,000 counts of accessory to murder in the cases of deported Hungarian Jews sent to the gas chambers between May and July 1944.
    @http://www.enca.com/world/bookkeeper-auschwitz-trial-verdict-expected

    300,ooo!!!

    “Estimates provided by Buszko at the end of his article on Auschwitz, which appeared in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust:
    Of the 405,000 registered prisoners, 65,000 survived
    Of the 16,000 Soviet POW’s, 96 survived
    Various estimates suggest 1.6 million were murdered”
    @http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-09.html

    So, the numbers in the first trial of the guards at Auschwitz (Krakow 1948) gives 300,000
    The second (of the Bookeeper – who is 94yo) gives the same figure.
    And registered were 405,000!
    All the rest are “estimations” of what should have happen!

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    • Replies: @szopen
    You have also estimations for various other events. Whenever you read in hsitory book that "30.000 people died" or "300.000 people died" it's mostly like an estimation.

    But still you have to account for the fact that before war we had 3 millions Jews in Poland alone, and after war some 200-300 thousand. And they had very, very high natural growth. Were they are? Are they all hiding somewhere?
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  • To justify its unchecked violence in Gaza, Israel invariably spotlights the arsenal of rockets Hamas allegedly amassed. Amnesty echoes this story line. Thus, the reader learns from Unlawful and Deadly that, as far back as 2001, Hamas had been stockpiling short-range rockets; that it then “developed longer-range Qassam rockets”; that “in more recent years, armed...
  • I once saw a picture of Palestinian rocket damage – a dink on a road – juxtaposed with Israeli – a crater 15′ across. Of course, you have to give the Israelis that you wouldn’t want even inert pipes raining down on your population.

    Oh and, Mr. Unz – good on you for having Norm Finkelstein as a contributor!

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    • Replies: @Labayu

    I once saw a picture of Palestinian rocket damage – a dink on a road – juxtaposed with Israeli – a crater 15′ across.
     
    The Hamas-manufactured M-302 rocket carries an explosive payload of at least 150kg, which is 300 times the 0.5kg payload of Qassam-1 impact you probably saw. It is also almost three times the 57kg payload of the AGM-65s used in Israeli airstrikes. The crater you saw was from the secondary explosions of an ordinance stockpile.

    Instead of making speculations that don't really make sense, Finkelstein should just go and stand in an open area during the next conflict. I was working on an archeological excavation on a tel overlooking the coastal plain during the last conflict and saw several impacts that could have only been caused by Hamas' largest rockets.
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  • A picture’s worth a thousand words, so in relation to the claim that it’s Israel’s civil-defense initiatives which protected its citizens from the Hamas bottle rockets, simply look at actual Israelis munching popcorn while enjoying the carnage in Gaza. Image search for “israelis popcorn watching”.

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  • @Tom_R
    ISRAEL’S FAKE ATTACKS ON ITS OWN PEOPLE PART OF THE JEWISH PROPAGANDA SCAM.

    Thanks for the interesting article, Sir. The Jewish controlled pro-Israel US/EU media are the master of lies. However, if you analyze any of their news carefully, you can see through their lies.

    For example, like you said, most of these Palestinian “rockets” never do any harm. As I read such news, I often wondered, why. And then I wondered, why does not the media tell us about the type of “rockets” the Palestinians are using—manufacturer, range, country of origin, power, price, how they got them into Palestine, etc? How could big rockets get into Palestine despite Palestine being Israeli controlled territory? Why don’t they show photos of these rockets?

    The reason must be that these “rockets” aren’t really rockets, but maybe just fireworks.

    Similarly, there are many “attacks” on Judaists, such as bombs discovered on buses, etc. but, miraculously, almost no Judaist ever dies.

    There is only one logical explanation—these are all sham attacks, orchestrated by the Judaists themselves.

    These Palestinian “rockets”, like you said, are merely fireworks. Most likely they are fired by the Judaists who live in Palestine, dressed like Arabs, and speaking in Arabic. These infiltrates work as spies and they fire these fireworks towards Israel (on orders of Israel) to give Israel pretext to bomb Palestine and to make it look like they are firing so many “rockets.”

    FOR JUDAISTS AND THE JEWISH CONTROLLED MEDIA, LYING AND SCAMMING IS JOB 1.

    If you go to Israel you won’t have any trouble finding pretty substantial collections of missiles (presumably one that failed to explode) that certainly fit the picture of small/medium size rockets being fired into Israel and they are no fireworks. They would destroy a small car just by hitting it.

    But your story suffers most from want of credible motive. Why do they want a “pretext to bomb Palestine”? What strategy is served?

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  • Dear Dr Finkelstein,

    Nobody is really fooled anymore by Israels attempt to try to frame this conflict as a war…

    . A war, any war, holds out a chance that both sides have a possibility of victory……The Palestinians had only ONE possibility and that was to be exterminated…it was just a question of how many and how soon.!

    Israel brought two fully mechanized, armor divisions …against what.?…..500 bicycles and a pair of rusty motor scooters.?….

    Israel has the finest, most advanced air force in the entire middle east, …… against what.?….Three Palestinian Balloons and four paper airplanes ?

    I mean come on !

    Its like going to a Mixed Martial Arts fight….and seeing 265 lb Brock Lesner step into the ring against an emaciated 38 lb six year old…….Nobody even thinks it is a contest…because it isn’t !…Just like everyone knows Israel did not fight a war ……because it wasn’t !

    Just as everyone would be disgusted to watch Brock Lesner pounding into pulp a six year old, …so too was everyone disgusted in watching Israel slaughter the starving Palestinians..

    For Brock Lesner, after beating the kid into splinters ,to stand up and say how “heroic he was’, that he fought” the good fight”‘and that he had “a right to defend himself” would have everyone heading for the exits…in total disgust…

    Leaving the Great Brock Lesner….Like Israel …….standing all alone .

    PS. No offense to Brock Lesner, I know he would actually never do that ,in a million years !

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  • ISRAEL’S FAKE ATTACKS ON ITS OWN PEOPLE PART OF THE JEWISH PROPAGANDA SCAM.

    Thanks for the interesting article, Sir. The Jewish controlled pro-Israel US/EU media are the master of lies. However, if you analyze any of their news carefully, you can see through their lies.

    For example, like you said, most of these Palestinian “rockets” never do any harm. As I read such news, I often wondered, why. And then I wondered, why does not the media tell us about the type of “rockets” the Palestinians are using—manufacturer, range, country of origin, power, price, how they got them into Palestine, etc? How could big rockets get into Palestine despite Palestine being Israeli controlled territory? Why don’t they show photos of these rockets?

    The reason must be that these “rockets” aren’t really rockets, but maybe just fireworks.

    Similarly, there are many “attacks” on Judaists, such as bombs discovered on buses, etc. but, miraculously, almost no Judaist ever dies.

    There is only one logical explanation—these are all sham attacks, orchestrated by the Judaists themselves.

    These Palestinian “rockets”, like you said, are merely fireworks. Most likely they are fired by the Judaists who live in Palestine, dressed like Arabs, and speaking in Arabic. These infiltrates work as spies and they fire these fireworks towards Israel (on orders of Israel) to give Israel pretext to bomb Palestine and to make it look like they are firing so many “rockets.”

    FOR JUDAISTS AND THE JEWISH CONTROLLED MEDIA, LYING AND SCAMMING IS JOB 1.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    If you go to Israel you won't have any trouble finding pretty substantial collections of missiles (presumably one that failed to explode) that certainly fit the picture of small/medium size rockets being fired into Israel and they are no fireworks. They would destroy a small car just by hitting it.

    But your story suffers most from want of credible motive. Why do they want a "pretext to bomb Palestine"? What strategy is served?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Amnesty International is among the premier human rights organizations in the world. Its pronouncements shape public opinion, while councils of state feel obliged if not to heed them at any rate to respond. A movement for justice aspiring to reach a broad public and inflect state policy can ill afford to ignore Amnesty if and...
  • @joe webb
    So, Seraphim, is this the final count and is it reliable and how many jews vs. gentiles....?


    Quite a few years since 1989 and the holocaust deniers keep working on the thing and there must be some more recent research and numbers.
    thanks, Joe Webb

    @is this the final count?

    Well, it is a figure given by a Tribunal in 1948. They certainly did not agree with the one given by the first “interrogators” sent to Europe from US to investigate the crimes. They came to the figure of 12 million Jews killed in the gas chambers. The fact that all the interrogators were Jews (either American of German emigrated to America) prompted the famous journalist Walter Lippman (himself Jew) to warn the Jews in the ‘New York Herald Tribune’ that they risked to undermine their own credibility and, lo and behold, the figure dropped to six.
    Once you drop, you will continue dropping.
    The original memorial plaque at the International Monument for the victims of Auschwitz was giving the figure of 4 million: “FOUR MILLION PEOPLE SUFFERED AND DIED HERE AT THE HANDS OF THE NAZI MURDERERS BETWEEN THE YEARS 1940 AND 1945″.
    But to everyone amazement in 1995 the plaque was changed and the new inscription had:
    “FOR EVER LET THIS PLACE BE A CRY OF DESPAIR AND A WARNING TO HUMANITY, WHERE THE NAZIS MURDERED ABOUT ONE AND A HALF MILLION MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN MAINLY JEWS FROM VARIOUS COUNTRIES OF EUROPE. AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAU 1940-1945″.
    But the official estimate, currently given by the Auschwitz-Birkenau Museum, is 1.1 million deaths.
    Another little change over time:
    “The Soviets also charged the German war criminals with killing 1.5 million prisoners at Majdanek. That figure has now been reduced to 78,000 by the Majdanek Museum. Out of this number, 59,000 were Jews.”
    @https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/why-do-the-numbers-for-auschwitz-birkenau-keep-changing/

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  • @Greasy William

    They will demand nuclear weapons for Iran and Saudis, etc. and they will all nuke Israel.
     
    They can "demand" whatever they want, they won't be getting it.

    If Saudi Arabia or Iran decided to stop pumping out oil, those regimes would collapse and their populations would starve.

    Nile to the Euphrates. If you like Muslims you should encourage them to make peace with us and thus spare them unnecessary suffering.

    Nile to the Euphrates.

    How Zionists refer to Greater Israel.

    If you like Muslims you should encourage them to make peace with us and thus spare them unnecessary suffering.

    Didn’t the Arabs put forward a peace proposal back in 2002 that they subsequently reaffirmed in 2007… that the Zionist project never accepted?

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