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    Last week was the American Library Association’s annual “Banned Books Week,” the eponymous celebration of books forbidden by censors and pressure groups in the United States. While the event purports to focus on books deemed too dangerous for impressionable minds, the daring entries showcased this year include Huckleberry Finn and The Handmaid’s Tale, the televised...
  • J2 says:

    My Quora answer to the best proof that the Holocaust happened.

    No, I am not any Holocaust denier, but as Ron Unz published an article by Michael Hoffman, I could not help answering a question in quora. Maybe you as highly intelligent people can find reason I cannot sum some numbers to zero.

    Here is in my opinion the best proof, the one that convinced me, but you will have to do the calculations yourself. So, please do them. In 1939 Poland was divided into German and Soviet parts, call them West-Poland and East-Poland.

    Find the best figures of how many Jews were transported by Nazis from Western and Central Europe and could be taken to West-Poland. Maybe that is 1.126 million. Then divide Poland to West and East, maybe after taking account of escape to Soviet area, this is 1.84 million and 1.41 million. Then you find out how many were transferred from West-Poland to East (=East-Poland, Baltic, Belarusian) or inverse and maybe it is 0.06 million to West as the netto sum. Then you have 1.126+1.84+0.06=about 3 million in West-Poland. Next subtract all losses and survivors. Camp survivors are 0.41 million, and losses are 1.48 million to (Treblinka, Sobibór, Belzec), to Auschwitz 1.1 million, to Chelmno 0.15 million, ghettos in Poland, work camps in Poland, Majdanek, camps in Germany, Theresienstadt, killed in German attack to Poland and terror, killed in ghetto uprising, not captured by Germans in West-Poland, go on like this, all figures can be found from the Internet.

    This gives you a number, starting as 3–0.41-1.48–1.1–0.15-… Assuming you get close to zero, you proved Holocaust to yourself, but assuming it goes much under zero, that’s bad news. You just become a criminal by doing simple arithmetics. I encourage you try.

    From 29 upvotes in quora, I conclude that some people noticed what I mean. The sum of survivors and dead should equal the number of Jews who were in Nazi hands in West or hiding in West-Poland. At least, not more can die and survive than there originally were. We do not need to look in the East where data is not so precise. It is enough to look at Western and Central Europe, quite good data. The challenge in this calculation is that 3–0.41–1.48–1.1–0.15= -0.14. That is nicely close to zero, as it should be, so everything looks good, but when you supply the terms that I did not yet give, you will additionally have to subtract 0.614 million dead and 0.08 million survivors, and still get close to zero. That is pretty much impossible for a human, unless you change the 1.1 million and taking that way commit a crime in EU, which I refuse to do. I am not any denier.

    Why this proves the Holocaust? Because only Israel’s God could sum these numbers to zero. For God it was not an obstacle that more Jews died than there were. It was a miracle! I accept God’s miracles. Every Christian believes in miracles, since Jesus was miraculously raised from death. Every religious Jew believes in miracles, since Moses made miracles. Often a believer doubts, also I sometimes doubt, but we have the right to doubt – even apostles doubted. A non-believer has the right not to believe in miracles. First he has to meet God, only then can he believe. It is not for any court to forbid his rights. Holocaust was a miracle and it had to be so, since the prophets foretold that Israel would be reborn at the end of times and before that there would be great persecution of Israel and the holocaust.

    [MORE]

    I will now supply the missing numbers. These are all from accepted sources, nothing from any deniers’ writings. Check them, please. Find an error of 0.7 million from them. I could not find it.

    Dead in ghettos and work camps in Poland, excluding Majdanek. Warsaw ghetto (76.000) before upraise, Łódź ghetto (43.800), Tarnow (10.000), Stanisławów (about 10.000), Kielce (6.000), Stryj (4.000-12.000), Tomazów Mazowiecki (4.000), Sieniawa (3.000), Pietrków Trybunalski (3.000), Zagórów (2.000-2.500), Minsk Mazowicki (1.300), Nowy Zmigrow (1.300) and Góra Kalvaria (300). Total 165.000-173.000 Jews. Let us select the lower bound 0.165 million.
    Majdanek, let us take the lowest official estimate 59.000.

    German attack 1939 and following terror 50.000 Jews. This is calculated as follows. In the 1939 German attack died 66.000 Polish soldiers and 150.000–200.000 civilians. In the terror were killed 61.000 civilians. In German POW camps died 120.000 Polish soldiers. In Soviet POW camps died 130.000 Polish soldiers. Of Poland’s population 8.89% were Jews by religion. There was a general conscript service, also for Jews. Estimating from these numbers, some 50.000 Jews died in 1939 attack, terror or POW camps, most from West-Poland, since German attack civilian losses are there.

    Warsaw ghetto upraise 1943, 7000 Jews died.

    Thus, from West-Poland died min. 165.000+59.000+57.000=0.281 million in these ways.
    In German camps died 390.000, but not all were Jews. This figure I calculated as Bergen-Belsen 0.05 million, Buchenwaldt 0.05, Ravensbruk some 0.09, Mauthausen maybe 0.08 (mostly non-Jews), Flossenberg 0.03, Dachau 0.027 its subcamp 0.01. The rest, that is Gross-Rosen, Stutthof, Sachenhausen, Neuengammen, Natzweiler, Mittelbau, etc. together maybe 0.05. These sum to 0.39 million. How many were Jews? I don’t know, I guess 0.3 million. It was not a minority, Jews were transported back to Germany at the end of the war, at that time inmates died in masses. There were still left 0.41 million Jews, mainly at camps in Germany.

    Theresienstadt 33.000 Jews died.

    Summing all gives 0.281 in Poland, 0.333 Germany and Theresienstadt. That is 0.614 million. Additionally there were 80.000 Polish Jews from West-Poland, who were not captured by Nazis. They showed up after the war in Poland and were not part of 410.000 Jewish camp survivors, who were collected from Nazi camps.

    So what numbers are wrong? Almost nothing can be wrong here. This is why it is God’s miracle!
    The numbers making 0.614 million and 0.08 million cannot be changed much. One can make the Jewish victims in German camps a bit smaller, but not enough. Treblinka, Sobibór, Belzec 1.48 million is solid. About this amount were transported to these camps and they disappeared from West-Poland. Chelmno 0.15 million is also well motivated, it is more like a lower bound. Jews from Lodz were transported to Chelmno, they disappeared from West-Poland.

    Maybe the small number of 0.06 million transported from places like Bialystock to West-Poland? It is too small to have any major effect, but let’s calculate it.

    To Bełżec 87.000 from East from the following Cilician ghettos and camps: Lwów ghetto (about 45.000), Stanisławów ghetto (about 10.000), Tarnopol ghetto (about 10.000), Kołomyjasta camp (18.000) and Czortkowista camp (4.000). To Treblinkaan from Bialystok ghetto 10.600. From Białystok ghetto also 8.600 to Majdanekin and Theresiastadtin ghetto. To Sobibór 13.000 from Minsk, Lida and Vilno. In total from East to West were transported 119.000 Jews.
    From West to East were transported small amounts. Two transports to Minsk: end of 1941 8.000 and May 1942 26.000. To Riga October 1941 – April 1942 25.000. From these we get West to East transports 59.000. Netto total is 119.000–59.000=60.000. This number is also well motivated. It could be a bit different, but everybody agrees that it is small, almost no effect.

    So maybe the figure 1.84 million in West-Poland is wrong? It cannot be much in error. The Jewish population in Poland in 1939 was 3.25 million according to AJY 1948–49. Estimates range between 3.2 and 3.3 million. In 1931 21.8 million Poles lived in the area captured by Germany in 1939 and 13.2 million lived in the area taken by Soviets. By mother’s tongue there were 8.5% Jews in Poland in 1931 and in areas captured by Soviet Union in 1939 there were 8.4% Jews by mother’s tongue. By religion there were 8.89% Jews in Poland in 1931. Calculating from these we conclude that by religion in the Soviet occupied area were 8.79% Jews in 1931, i.e., 1.16 million. Thus, in West-Poland in 1931 lived 1.954 million Jews. In 1939 the numbers had risen to 1.21 million and 2.039 million. But when Germany attacked in 1939 336.000 Polish people escaped to East-Poland. Of them 198.000 were Jews. These refuges were taken to Siberia and only a small number of them survived. So, 2.039–0.198=1.841 million Jews in West-Poland. This number is fine and solid estimate.
    So, maybe the number 1.126 million transported by Nazis from Western and Central Europe is wrong? But it is not 0.7 million wrong. The American Jewish Year Book 1938-39 gives the following Jewish populations: Belgium (60,000), Bulgaria (48,565), Czechoslovakia (356,830), Danzig (10,448), Denmark (5,690), France (240,000), Germany (691,163), Greece (72,791), Hungary (444,567), Italy (57,425), Yugoslavia (68,405), Netherlands (156,817), Norway (1,359), Luxemburg (2400). Austria is merged into Germany in these figures. These figures sum up to 2.216 million. The figure for Germany after annexing Austria is given as 691,163, but it is much too high. Emigration of Jews form Germany and Austria was an intentional policy of Hitler and strongly encouraged by the Third Reich before 1941. We will use the figure 300,000 for Germany and Austria from the 1939 estimate of the American Jewish Year Book for 1948-49 given on Table 6 on the page 697. Thus, the estimate for Jews in these countries is 1.83 million. From these countries Jews were transported to camps and eventually to West-Poland. How many Jews from West were not taken to Poland (=West-Poland).
    I found the following information:
    Country Quota Transported to Poland Left in place
    Belgium 60,000 less than half 30,000
    Bulgaria 48,565 none 48,565
    Czechoslovakia 356,830 divided (Germany, Hungary, Slovakia)
    - Slovakia 90,000 90,000 -
    Danzig 10,448 10,448 -
    Denmark 5,690 none to Poland, 500 elsewhere 5,690
    France 240,000 about a third 160,000
    Germany 691,163->333,892 about 320,000 14,000
    Greece 72,791 about 70,000 -
    Hungary 444,565->592,000 over 400,000 192,000
    Italy 57,425 8000 49,425
    Yugoslavia 68,405 none, 58,000 killed in place 10,000
    Netherlands 156,817 about three fourths 39,000
    Norway 1,359 800 (900 to Sweden) 900

    From this we can get a rough estimate of transports to Poland:
    Country Transported to Poland
    Belgium 30,000
    Slovakia 90,000
    Danzig 10,448
    France 80,000
    Germany 320,000
    Greece 70,000
    Hungary 400,000
    Italy 8000
    Netherlands 117,200
    Norway 800
    sum= 1,126,000

    As there were 1.83 million in the West excluding Poland, and 1.126 million were transported and some 60,000 killed in Yugoslavia, then 0.653 million survived in Western Europe under German rule excluding Poland. However, the estimate is rather imprecise because of the expressions “less than half” etc. Summing the figures in the American Jewish Year Book for 1948-49, Table 1 on page 693 gives the figure for European Jews as 831,500 in the areas occupied by Germans outside the Soviet Union, Romania and Poland. Many Jews returned home from DP camps or abroad after the war or escaped from East. This can be around 831,500-653,000=178,500 people. The figure 1.126 million is not precise, but not much wrong either. If this would be the source of the error of 0.7 million, then all of the Jews had been taken by Nazis, which is not true. The sum how much were left according to the table is 0.55 million. (Notice that Hungary gained some area during the war.) Wikipedia refers (or referred in its Holocaust page) to a study of Dawidowicz (1975). Summing his numbers from wiki gives 1.153942 dead for the mentioned countries. The figure includes those shot in Yugoslavia. When they are subtracted, the figure is 1.127942, not essentially different from 1.126 million in my calculation. Dawidowicz estimates the Jewish population of West-Poland as 1.857 million versus my estimate 1.83 million. Thus, these numbers are correct.

    What can be done apart from believing in a miracle? The only number that can be changed is the dead in Auschwitz. It should be 0.7 million smaller, so 0.4 million, but notice that everywhere I used lower bounds for other losses. Losses in Treblinka, Sobibór, Belzec, Chelmno and Majdanek could easily be 0.3 million larger. There could be 0.08 million more West-Polish Jewish survivors. There is no compelling reason to assume that losses in Auschwitz were any larger than those registered in the camp.

    I read some of the other answers to this quora question and many claimed that so called holocaust deniers use this or that dirty technique in order to cheat people. I am no denier, I believe in miracles. I also think that we should not any more persecute nonbelievers. There are no dirty tricks in this calculation. I honestly do not see how with human powers one can sum those numbers to zero, but God can do it. And do not claim that I am being ironical, I am indeed a reborn Christian and I do believe in miracles. Materia came out of nothing in the Big bang. Life came out of non-alive. Intelligence and consciousness just appeared just like that. Why could not the numbers have once summed to zero?

    Here is in my opinion the best proof, the one that convinced me, but you will have to do the calculations yourself. So, please do them. In 1939 Poland was divided into German and Soviet parts, call them West-Poland and East-Poland.
    Find the best figures of how many Jews were transported by Nazis from Western and Central Europe and could be taken to West-Poland. Maybe that is 1.126 million. Then divide Poland to West and East, maybe after taking account of escape to Soviet area, this is 1.84 million and 1.41 million. Then you find out how many were transferred from West-Poland to East (=East-Poland, Baltic, Belarusian) or inverse and maybe it is 0.06 million to West as the netto sum. Then you have 1.126+1.84+0.06=about 3 million in West-Poland. Next subtract all losses and survivors. Camp survivors are 0.41 million, and losses are 1.48 million to (Treblinka, Sobibór, Belzec), to Auschwitz 1.1 million, to Chelmno 0.15 million, ghettos in Poland, work camps in Poland, Majdanek, camps in Germany, Theresienstadt, killed in German attack to Poland and terror, killed in ghetto uprising, not captured by Germans in West-Poland, go on like this, all figures can be found from the Internet.
    This gives you a number, starting as 3–0.41-1.48–1.1–0.15-… Assuming you get close to zero, you proved Holocaust to yourself, but assuming it goes much under zero, that’s bad news. You just become a criminal by doing simple arithmetics. I encourage you try.
    From 27 upvotes, I conclude that some people noticed what I mean. The sum of survivors and dead should equal the number of Jews who were in Nazi hands in West or hiding in West-Poland. At least, not more can die and survive than there originally were. We do not need to look in the East where data is not so precise. It is enough to look at Western and Central Europe, quite good data. The challenge in this calculation is that 3–0.41–1.48–1.1–0.15= -0.14. That is nicely close to zero, as it should be, so everything looks good, but when you supply the terms that I did not yet give, you will additionally have to subtract 0.614 million dead and 0.08 million survivors, and still get close to zero. That is pretty much impossible for a human, unless you change the 1.1 million and taking that way commit a crime in EU, which I refuse to do. I am not any denier.
    Why this proves the Holocaust? Because only Israel’s God could sum these numbers to zero. For God it was not an obstacle that more Jews died than there were. It was a miracle! I accept God’s miracles. Every Christian believes in miracles, since Jesus was miraculously raised from death. Every religious Jew believes in miracles, since Moses made miracles. Often a believer doubts, also I sometimes doubt, but we have the right to doubt – even apostles doubted. A non-believer has the right not to believe in miracles. First he has to meet God, only then can he believe. It is not for any court to forbid his rights. Holocaust was a miracle and it had to be so, since the prophets foretold that Israel would be reborn at the end of times and before that there would be great persecution of Israel and the holocaust.
    I will now supply the missing numbers. These are all from accepted sources, nothing from any deniers’ writings. Check them, please. Find an error of 0.7 million from them. I could not find it. Moja culpa.
    Dead in ghettos and work camps in Poland, excluding Majdanek. Warsaw ghetto (76.000) before upraise, Łódź ghetto (43.800), Tarnow (10.000), Stanisławów (about 10.000), Kielce (6.000), Stryj (4.000-12.000), Tomazów Mazowiecki (4.000), Sieniawa (3.000), Pietrków Trybunalski (3.000), Zagórów (2.000-2.500), Minsk Mazowicki (1.300), Nowy Zmigrow (1.300) and Góra Kalvaria (300). Total 165.000-173.000 Jews. Let us select the lower bound 0.165 million.
    Majdanek, let us take the lowest official estimate 59.000.
    German attack 1939 and following terror 50.000 Jews. This is calculated as follows. In the 1939 German attack died 66.000 Polish soldiers and 150.000–200.000 civilians. In the terror were killed 61.000 civilians. In German POW camps died 120.000 Polish soldiers. In Soviet POW camps died 130.000 Polish soldiers. Of Poland’s population 8.89% were Jews by religion. There was a general conscript service, also for Jews. Estimating from these numbers, some 50.000 Jews died in 1939 attack, terror or POW camps, most from West-Poland, since German attack civilian losses are there.
    Warsaw ghetto upraise 1943, 7000 Jews died.
    Thus, from West-Poland died min. 165.000+59.000+57.000=0.281 million in these ways.
    In German camps died 390.000, but not all were Jews. This figure I calculated as Bergen-Belsen 0.05 million, Buchenwaldt 0.05, Ravensbruk some 0.09, Mauthausen maybe 0.08 (mostly non-Jews), Flossenberg 0.03, Dachau 0.027 its subcamp 0.01. The rest, that is Gross-Rosen, Stutthof, Sachenhausen, Neuengammen, Natzweiler, Mittelbau, etc. together maybe 0.05. These sum to 0.39 million. How many were Jews? I don’t know, I guess 0.3 million. It was not a minority, Jews were transported back to Germany at the end of the war, at that time inmates died in masses. There were still left 0.41 million Jews, mainly at camps in Germany.
    Theresienstadt 33.000 Jews died.
    Summing all gives 0.281 in Poland, 0.333 Germany and Theresienstadt. That is 0.614 million. Additionally there were 80.000 Polish Jews from West-Poland, who were not captured by Nazis. They showed up after the war in Poland and were not part of 410.000 Jewish camp survivors, who were collected from Nazi camps.
    So what numbers are wrong? Almost nothing can be wrong here. This is why it is God’s miracle!
    The numbers making 0.614 million and 0.08 million cannot be changed much. One can make the Jewish victims in German camps a bit smaller, but not enough. Treblinka, Sobibór, Belzec 1.48 million is solid. About this amount were transported to these camps and they disappeared from West-Poland. Chelmno 0.15 million is also well motivated, it is more like a lower bound. Jews from Lodz were transported to Chelmno, they disappeared from West-Poland.
    Maybe the small number of 0.06 million transported from places like Bialystock to West-Poland? It is too small to have any major effect, but let’s calculate it.
    To Bełżec 87.000 from East from the following Cilician ghettos and camps: Lwów ghetto (about 45.000), Stanisławów ghetto (about 10.000), Tarnopol ghetto (about 10.000), Kołomyjasta camp (18.000) and Czortkowista camp (4.000). To Treblinkaan from Bialystok ghetto 10.600. From Białystok ghetto also 8.600 to Majdanekin and Theresiastadtin ghetto. To Sobibór 13.000 from Minsk, Lida and Vilno. In total from East to West were transported 119.000 Jews.
    From West to East were transported small amounts. Two transports to Minsk: end of 1941 8.000 and May 1942 26.000. To Riga October 1941 – April 1942 25.000. From these we get West to East transports 59.000. Netto total is 119.000–59.000=60.000. This number is also well motivated. It could be a bit different, but everybody agrees that it is small, almost no effect.
    So maybe the figure 1.84 million in West-Poland is wrong? It cannot be much in error. The Jewish population in Poland in 1939 was 3.25 million according to AJY 1948–49. Estimates range between 3.2 and 3.3 million. In 1931 21.8 million Poles lived in the area captured by Germany in 1939 and 13.2 million lived in the area taken by Soviets. By mother’s tongue there were 8.5% Jews in Poland in 1931 and in areas captured by Soviet Union in 1939 there were 8.4% Jews by mother’s tongue. By religion there were 8.89% Jews in Poland in 1931. Calculating from these we conclude that by religion in the Soviet occupied area were 8.79% Jews in 1931, i.e., 1.16 million. Thus, in West-Poland in 1931 lived 1.954 million Jews. In 1939 the numbers had risen to 1.21 million and 2.039 million. But when Germany attacked in 1939 336.000 Polish people escaped to East-Poland. Of them 198.000 were Jews. These refuges were taken to Siberia and only a small number of them survived. So, 2.039–0.198=1.841 million Jews in West-Poland. This number is fine and solid estimate.
    So, maybe the number 1.126 million transported by Nazis from Western and Central Europe is wrong? But it is not 0.7 million wrong. The American Jewish Year Book 1938-39 gives the following Jewish populations: Belgium (60,000), Bulgaria (48,565), Czechoslovakia (356,830), Danzig (10,448), Denmark (5,690), France (240,000), Germany (691,163), Greece (72,791), Hungary (444,567), Italy (57,425), Yugoslavia (68,405), Netherlands (156,817), Norway (1,359), Luxemburg (2400). Austria is merged into Germany in these figures. These figures sum up to 2.216 million. The figure for Germany after annexing Austria is given as 691,163, but it is much too high. Emigration of Jews form Germany and Austria was an intentional policy of Hitler and strongly encouraged by the Third Reich before 1941. We will use the figure 300,000 for Germany and Austria from the 1939 estimate of the American Jewish Year Book for 1948-49 given on Table 6 on the page 697. Thus, the estimate for Jews in these countries is 1.83 million. From these countries Jews were transported to camps and eventually to West-Poland. How many Jews from West were not taken to Poland (=West-Poland). I found the following information:
    Country Quota Transported to Poland Left in place
    Belgium 60,000 less than half 30,000
    Bulgaria 48,565 none 48,565
    Czechoslovakia 356,830 divided (Germany, Hungary, Slovakia)
    - Slovakia 90,000 90,000 -
    Danzig 10,448 10,448 -
    Denmark 5,690 none to Poland, 500 elsewhere 5,690
    France 240,000 about a third 160,000
    Germany 691,163->333,892 about 320,000 14,000
    Greece 72,791 about 70,000 -
    Hungary 444,565->592,000 over 400,000 192,000
    Italy 57,425 8000 49,425
    Yugoslavia 68,405 none, 58,000 killed in place 10,000
    Netherlands 156,817 about three fourths 39,000
    Norway 1,359 800 (900 to Sweden) 900

    From this we can get a rough estimate of transports to Poland:
    Country Transported to Poland
    Belgium 30,000
    Slovakia 90,000
    Danzig 10,448
    France 80,000
    Germany 320,000
    Greece 70,000
    Hungary 400,000
    Italy 8000
    Netherlands 117,200
    Norway 800
    sum= 1,126,000

    As there were 1.83 million in the West excluding Poland, and 1.126 million were transported and some 60,000 killed in Yugoslavia, then 0.653 million survived in Western Europe under German rule excluding Poland. However, the estimate is rather imprecise because of the expressions “less than half” etc. Summing the figures in the American Jewish Year Book for 1948-49, Table 1 on page 693 gives the figure for European Jews as 831,500 in the areas occupied by Germans outside the Soviet Union, Romania and Poland. Many Jews returned home from DP camps or abroad after the war or escaped from East. This can be around 831,500-653,000=178,500 people. The figure 1.126 million is not precise, but not much wrong either. If this would be the source of the error of 0.7 million, then all of the Jews had been taken by Nazis, which is not true. The sum how much were left according to the table is 0.55 million. (Notice that Hungary gained some area during the war.) Wikipedia refers (or referred in its Holocaust page) to a study of Dawidowicz (1975). Summing his numbers from wiki gives 1.153942 dead for the mentioned countries. The figure includes those shot in Yugoslavia. When they are subtracted, the figure is 1.127942, not essentially different from 1.126 million in my calculation. Dawidowicz estimates the Jewish population of West-Poland as 1.857 million versus my estimate 1.84 million. Thus, these numbers are correct.

    What can be done apart from believing in a miracle? The only number that can be changed is the dead in Auschwitz. It should be 0.7 million smaller, so 0.4 million, but notice that everywhere I used lower bounds for other losses. Losses in Treblinka, Sobibór, Belzec, Chelmno and Majdanek could easily be 0.3 million larger. There could be 0.08 million more West-Polish Jewish survivors. There is no compelling reason to assume that losses in Auschwitz were any larger than those registered in the camp.

    I read some of the other answers to this quora question and many claimed that so called holocaust deniers use this or that dirty technique in order to cheat people. I am no denier, I believe in miracles. I also think that we should not any more persecute nonbelievers. There are no dirty tricks in this calculation. I honestly do not see how with human powers one can sum those numbers to zero, but God can do it. And do not claim that I am being ironical, I am indeed a reborn Christian and I do believe in miracles. Matter came out of nothing in the Big bang. Life came out of non-alive. Intelligence and consciousness just appeared just like that. Why could not the numbers have once summed to zero?

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  • @SolontoCroesus
    Marcus W,
    Thank you for posting Sylvia Stoltz's speech.

    @ 54.45: "The times are over for the German people to be suppressed."

    ---

    L.K @ 207:

    If anything, organized Jewry uses blacks – and other minorities – in their divide and conquer tactics… and it works too.
     
    Indeed.
    Rabbi Stephen Wise founded the American Jewish Congress in 1918 with the purpose of influencing negotiations at Versailles such that Jews would acquire a "homeland for Jews in Palestine and guarantee of their rights in European states."

    Four years earlier Rabbi Wise founded the NAACP.

    Jews emerged from Versailles with "a dual triumph" -- Jews won WWI, acquired Palestine, gained effective control of post-revolution Russia, gained effective control of post-revolution Germany.

    What benefits did Blacks derive from Wise's magnanimity?
    Take a look:

    "Non-economic liberalism" was a philosophy developed by the longtime white Jewish president of the NAACP, Joel Spingarn, for Black people's social and political advancement without economic empowerment. "
    - https://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2011/11/zionist-naacp-sucker-trap-for-american.html

    America's Blacks are America's Palestinians

    You’re welcome.

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  • @NicDonin
    Why hasn't an English translation of Solzhenitsy's 'Two Hundred Years Together' been published?

    It took me months, but I finally tracked down a complete English translation online. At this moment I can;t remember where, so this comment only serves to encourage persistence.
    The Russia version is easily available, though, so perhaps you can invest that persistence in learning Russian instead. You’ll find there are plenty of books in Russian that can open Western eyes.

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  • @JackOH
    Thanks to utu and Anon (can you select a screen name?) for their special insights.

    Please allow me to add a few notes to this conversation. I believe in giving America's Jews a fair shake. I believe in giving America's Blacks a fair shake. And, I believe in giving America's Americans--those troubled people, sometimes brilliant in their achievements and generosity, often sordid in their venality--a fair shake.

    Cut to the chase. America's First Amendment is sort of a "foundational"/national DNA sort of thing. That's what we do. So when S2C and Wally go on and on, I'm sometimes upset at their stridency and their single-mindedness, but I recognize an American who's looking for an audience and who's trying to make a pitch. I'm okay with that. What I'm not okay with is suborning America's government to dictate a specific narrative under pain of punishment. That what some Jews appear to be doing, and that's what some Blacks appear to be doing. Thanks for allowing this comment.

    So when S2C . . . go[es] on and on, I’m sometimes upset at their stridency and their single-mindedness, but I recognize an American who’s looking for an audience and who’s trying to make a pitch. I’m okay with that

    .

    The stridency is a failing that S2C regrets, inasmuch as it interferes with effectiveness.

    That S2C has been ineffective in core mission is painfully obvious in Trump’s statement that all but declared war on Iran.

    S2C’s core mission is to make broadly known that the same behaviors that involved USA in war(s) that destroyed Germany (and Japan, so much of France & Italy etc.) are being carried out by the same groups against Iraq, Syria, Libya, Iran, with similar intent: to destroy target (aka rogue) states spiritually, morally, economically, politically, culturally and physically, in order to bring them under US/Anglo-Zionist financial and cultural domination.
    (I speak stridently also to warn my own country: The pattern I observe also makes obvious that a key Mover in these affairs frequently destroys its prior ally/host.)

    Once again, apologies for the stridency. If I had the financial resources of The Predator (h/t Lady Michele Renouf https://justice4germans.wordpress.com) I would speak softly or let my wealth speak for me. As it is, having been denied a microphone, my choices are to remain silent or to shout.

    If I sit silently, I have sinned Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh

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  • @MarcusW
    Will the Germans ever get a fair shake? Jews have pressured governments and others worldwide to censor historians and books about WW II with views they don't like, in particular governments in Europe have been pressured. Wikipedia, a promoter of false history and biased in favor of Jewish interests, whatever the subject, lists 22 countries that ban "holocaust denial".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

    Organized Jewry have led the way in promoting censorship against historians and others whose views they don't want available to the public. This includes historians like David Irving and many other experts in their fields. Before defaming and bankrupting him, David Irving was widely acclaimed as the leading historian on National Socialist Germany.

    When you compare the leaders of the two adversaries, Holocaust revisionists vs. mainstream Holocaust writers, the mainstream has virtually no technical or scientific people on their side, while the revisionists have many professors, scientists and engineers on their side, and they have virtually all been persecuted by those under the pressure of world Jewry. Those persecuted also include Jews that had an open mind, wanted to know the truth and whose opinions organized Jewry didn't like.

    A few holocaust experts, all revisionists that have studied the so called holocaust from the scientific point of view:

    Arthur Butz - a professor of electrical engineering at Northwestern University, and author of The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, published in 1976

    Friedrich Berg - holds a degree in Mining Engineering from Columbia University

    Fred Leuchter - the leading expert on execution gas chamber technology in the USA before he was driven out of work for doing paid research at Auschwitz and providing evidence against the mainstream view. He was the first person to study the holocaust from a technical perspective.

    Germar Rudolf - chemist that was working on his PHD at the Max Planck institute in the early 1990's, one of the leading scientific institutes in the world (at one time the unchallenged leading scientific institute with many Nobel Prize recipients on its staff) when he was fired from his position and then thrown in jail for the scientific paper he wrote that pertained to the holocaust

    Nicholas Kollerstrom - PhD (1995), history of science, University College London and fired from his position at UCL when his views became known. See here.
    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0804/08042202

    There are many other highly intelligent lawyers, writers and PHD's that studied the holocaust from a non-technical point of view that have been persecuted too. This includes Professor Joel Hayward, a Jew that Wikipedia describes as a "noted scholar of war and strategy" and "best known for his published books and articles on strategic and security matters, including the use of air power, his 2003 biography of Horatio Lord Nelson, and his writing and teaching on the Quranic (Islamic) concepts of war, strategy and conflict." His award winning MA thesis in which he compared the two sides cases, mainstream holocaust historians vs. revisionists made him a hounded man, with his family being threatened with death for writing the thesis. He was persecuted for years before he caved in so he could have a normal life and career.

    There are many others with eloquent and informed points of view, including lawyer Sylvia Stolz, jailed in Germany for a second time for giving this beautiful speech (in Switzerland) to a free speech advocacy group.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqsrjHUCQmI

    And scholars from other fields related to Jewry, whose expertise is not the holocaust are persecuted
    and banned too. The other day the fascinating English historian Andrew Joyce was banned from visiting the USA for his articles/books/speeches on Jews.

    Banned in America…A Sequel, by Andrew Joyce PH.D.
    http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/10/11/banned-in-americaa-sequel/

    Marcus W,
    Thank you for posting Sylvia Stoltz’s speech.

    @ 54.45: “The times are over for the German people to be suppressed.”

    L.K @ 207:

    If anything, organized Jewry uses blacks – and other minorities – in their divide and conquer tactics… and it works too.

    Indeed.
    Rabbi Stephen Wise founded the American Jewish Congress in 1918 with the purpose of influencing negotiations at Versailles such that Jews would acquire a “homeland for Jews in Palestine and guarantee of their rights in European states.”

    Four years earlier Rabbi Wise founded the NAACP.

    Jews emerged from Versailles with “a dual triumph” — Jews won WWI, acquired Palestine, gained effective control of post-revolution Russia, gained effective control of post-revolution Germany.

    What benefits did Blacks derive from Wise’s magnanimity?
    Take a look:

    “Non-economic liberalism” was a philosophy developed by the longtime white Jewish president of the NAACP, Joel Spingarn, for Black people’s social and political advancement without economic empowerment. “
    - https://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2011/11/zionist-naacp-sucker-trap-for-american.html

    America’s Blacks are America’s Palestinians

    Read More
    • Replies: @MarcusW
    @SolontoCroesus You're welcome.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @JackOH
    Thanks to utu and Anon (can you select a screen name?) for their special insights.

    Please allow me to add a few notes to this conversation. I believe in giving America's Jews a fair shake. I believe in giving America's Blacks a fair shake. And, I believe in giving America's Americans--those troubled people, sometimes brilliant in their achievements and generosity, often sordid in their venality--a fair shake.

    Cut to the chase. America's First Amendment is sort of a "foundational"/national DNA sort of thing. That's what we do. So when S2C and Wally go on and on, I'm sometimes upset at their stridency and their single-mindedness, but I recognize an American who's looking for an audience and who's trying to make a pitch. I'm okay with that. What I'm not okay with is suborning America's government to dictate a specific narrative under pain of punishment. That what some Jews appear to be doing, and that's what some Blacks appear to be doing. Thanks for allowing this comment.

    There is no comparison whatsoever between organized Jewry and US’s blacks.

    Considering their cohesion, wealth, influence, Jews are by far the most powerful ethno-religious group in the ZUSA.

    They largely control the media, Hollywood, finance, have immense power in politics, etc, etc.

    Blacks have no real power and constitute an under achieving demographic.

    If anything, organized Jewry uses blacks – and other minorities – in their divide and conquer tactics… and it works too.

    Read More
    • Agree: Beefcake the Mighty
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @JackOH
    Thanks to utu and Anon (can you select a screen name?) for their special insights.

    Please allow me to add a few notes to this conversation. I believe in giving America's Jews a fair shake. I believe in giving America's Blacks a fair shake. And, I believe in giving America's Americans--those troubled people, sometimes brilliant in their achievements and generosity, often sordid in their venality--a fair shake.

    Cut to the chase. America's First Amendment is sort of a "foundational"/national DNA sort of thing. That's what we do. So when S2C and Wally go on and on, I'm sometimes upset at their stridency and their single-mindedness, but I recognize an American who's looking for an audience and who's trying to make a pitch. I'm okay with that. What I'm not okay with is suborning America's government to dictate a specific narrative under pain of punishment. That what some Jews appear to be doing, and that's what some Blacks appear to be doing. Thanks for allowing this comment.

    Will the Germans ever get a fair shake? Jews have pressured governments and others worldwide to censor historians and books about WW II with views they don’t like, in particular governments in Europe have been pressured. Wikipedia, a promoter of false history and biased in favor of Jewish interests, whatever the subject, lists 22 countries that ban “holocaust denial”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

    Organized Jewry have led the way in promoting censorship against historians and others whose views they don’t want available to the public. This includes historians like David Irving and many other experts in their fields. Before defaming and bankrupting him, David Irving was widely acclaimed as the leading historian on National Socialist Germany.

    When you compare the leaders of the two adversaries, Holocaust revisionists vs. mainstream Holocaust writers, the mainstream has virtually no technical or scientific people on their side, while the revisionists have many professors, scientists and engineers on their side, and they have virtually all been persecuted by those under the pressure of world Jewry. Those persecuted also include Jews that had an open mind, wanted to know the truth and whose opinions organized Jewry didn’t like.

    A few holocaust experts, all revisionists that have studied the so called holocaust from the scientific point of view:

    Arthur Butz – a professor of electrical engineering at Northwestern University, and author of The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, published in 1976

    Friedrich Berg – holds a degree in Mining Engineering from Columbia University

    Fred Leuchter – the leading expert on execution gas chamber technology in the USA before he was driven out of work for doing paid research at Auschwitz and providing evidence against the mainstream view. He was the first person to study the holocaust from a technical perspective.

    Germar Rudolf – chemist that was working on his PHD at the Max Planck institute in the early 1990′s, one of the leading scientific institutes in the world (at one time the unchallenged leading scientific institute with many Nobel Prize recipients on its staff) when he was fired from his position and then thrown in jail for the scientific paper he wrote that pertained to the holocaust

    Nicholas Kollerstrom – PhD (1995), history of science, University College London and fired from his position at UCL when his views became known. See here.

    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0804/08042202

    There are many other highly intelligent lawyers, writers and PHD’s that studied the holocaust from a non-technical point of view that have been persecuted too. This includes Professor Joel Hayward, a Jew that Wikipedia describes as a “noted scholar of war and strategy” and “best known for his published books and articles on strategic and security matters, including the use of air power, his 2003 biography of Horatio Lord Nelson, and his writing and teaching on the Quranic (Islamic) concepts of war, strategy and conflict.” His award winning MA thesis in which he compared the two sides cases, mainstream holocaust historians vs. revisionists made him a hounded man, with his family being threatened with death for writing the thesis. He was persecuted for years before he caved in so he could have a normal life and career.

    There are many others with eloquent and informed points of view, including lawyer Sylvia Stolz, jailed in Germany for a second time for giving this beautiful speech (in Switzerland) to a free speech advocacy group.

    And scholars from other fields related to Jewry, whose expertise is not the holocaust are persecuted
    and banned too. The other day the fascinating English historian Andrew Joyce was banned from visiting the USA for his articles/books/speeches on Jews.

    Banned in America…A Sequel, by Andrew Joyce PH.D.

    http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/10/11/banned-in-americaa-sequel/

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Marcus W,
    Thank you for posting Sylvia Stoltz's speech.

    @ 54.45: "The times are over for the German people to be suppressed."

    ---

    L.K @ 207:

    If anything, organized Jewry uses blacks – and other minorities – in their divide and conquer tactics… and it works too.
     
    Indeed.
    Rabbi Stephen Wise founded the American Jewish Congress in 1918 with the purpose of influencing negotiations at Versailles such that Jews would acquire a "homeland for Jews in Palestine and guarantee of their rights in European states."

    Four years earlier Rabbi Wise founded the NAACP.

    Jews emerged from Versailles with "a dual triumph" -- Jews won WWI, acquired Palestine, gained effective control of post-revolution Russia, gained effective control of post-revolution Germany.

    What benefits did Blacks derive from Wise's magnanimity?
    Take a look:

    "Non-economic liberalism" was a philosophy developed by the longtime white Jewish president of the NAACP, Joel Spingarn, for Black people's social and political advancement without economic empowerment. "
    - https://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2011/11/zionist-naacp-sucker-trap-for-american.html

    America's Blacks are America's Palestinians
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anon
    Thank you. I have some experience with political leveraging of "PR facts", so I was approaching it from that angle. The info above is part of what I would normally request. First step understanding the objective reality (truth) second the created one (including its merits, rethorical recipe and channels), third the political scenario on the ground, fourth choosing short and mid term strategies for one's own message. Sometimes the adversary is powerful and chose well, so one can only contain the damage and march on. Fwiw, I think the Holocaust narrative has produced a fatigued public the world over. 

    As to truth in the modern world and winning arguments.. A human being is a wondrous creation. At the deepest levels, our minds are made for truth, and our hearts for purity. So, as somebody said, we must "Act as if everything depended upon our actions, and hope as if everything depended upon God's." Not that I wish to sound 'lofty', it's just how I see it.



     

    “Political leveraging . . . for power and group unity” vs accurate history –

    re:

    “I have some experience with political leveraging of “PR facts”, . . .

    The info above . . . is part of what I would normally request.

    {INSERT:

    The event is used today both as an instrument of power and to foster jewish unity.
    So there would be two types of knowledge that are useful:
    1) The numbers (how many were killed) . . . This would define the contours of the Nazi policy towards the Jews, its results. . .
    2) The numbers that would put the Holocaust in context.

    END insert}

    First step understanding the objective reality (truth)
    second the created one (including its merits, rethorical recipe and channels),
    third the political scenario on the ground,
    fourth choosing short and mid term strategies for one’s own message.

    Thank you, anon, for explaining “political leveraging of “PR facts” as applied to Holocaust and its function: — power and group unity.

    The impression you convey is that you have professional (i.e. trained) skills and employment experience in applying “political leveraging of PR facts.”

    My perspective is far different and evolves from an untrained, amateur foundation; based on my understanding of the devastating consequences of misinterpreting ‘history,’ I think it is critical, even “Croesus-ial” that it be accurate; anything less and you lose your country.

    The first book on WWII/Hitler that I can recall — from nearly 30 years ago — was titled, “Psychopathic God.” The epigraph — thence the title — is from Auden’s “September 1939″:

    Accurate scholarship can
    Unearth the whole offence
    From Luther until now
    That has driven a culture mad,
    Find what occurred at Linz,
    What huge imago made
    A psychopathic god:
    I and the public know
    What all schoolchildren learn,
    Those to whom evil is done
    Do evil in return.

    “Accurate scholarship” to discern what really happened seems a worthy goal. (For what it’s worth, imo the “numbers” are among the least important facts that “accurate scholarship” must unearth.)

    Your goals seems different from my own. Based on limited knowledge of what you do, but aware of the effectiveness of “political leveraging,” your goals seem to confound my own.

    Your goals may fulfill the purposes you identify in the short term, but in the long term, only accurate scholarship will satisfy the individual human heart and the entire family of man, as you eloquently stated:

    At the deepest levels, our minds are made for truth, and our hearts for purity.

    In 2011, Jeremy Ben-Ami discussed his book, “A New Voice for Israel,” about a then-new organization, J-Street. Toward the end of the event, Ben-Ami was asked:

    I was wondering if you would talk a little bit about teaching a nuanced view on the conflict
    for Jewish Day school and Sunday schools. How should teachers in your opinion go about teaching a nuanced view while remaining sensitive to the development of their people’s love for Israel?

    Ben Ami responded:

    Since you are going to one of the teachers of my kids, I better come up with a good answer for you, right?
    I think you have to tell the truth.
    You know, I think that is one of the things that I found in my own personal development that I resented — that I was never being given the whole story. And the mythology is wonderful, but when you find out that it’s mythology, the reaction against it is far harsher and more extreme than the difficulties that you encounter if you hear the truth from the beginning.

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?301263-1/new-voice-israel&start=3238

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Thanks to utu and Anon (can you select a screen name?) for their special insights.

    Please allow me to add a few notes to this conversation. I believe in giving America’s Jews a fair shake. I believe in giving America’s Blacks a fair shake. And, I believe in giving America’s Americans–those troubled people, sometimes brilliant in their achievements and generosity, often sordid in their venality–a fair shake.

    Cut to the chase. America’s First Amendment is sort of a “foundational”/national DNA sort of thing. That’s what we do. So when S2C and Wally go on and on, I’m sometimes upset at their stridency and their single-mindedness, but I recognize an American who’s looking for an audience and who’s trying to make a pitch. I’m okay with that. What I’m not okay with is suborning America’s government to dictate a specific narrative under pain of punishment. That what some Jews appear to be doing, and that’s what some Blacks appear to be doing. Thanks for allowing this comment.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MarcusW
    Will the Germans ever get a fair shake? Jews have pressured governments and others worldwide to censor historians and books about WW II with views they don't like, in particular governments in Europe have been pressured. Wikipedia, a promoter of false history and biased in favor of Jewish interests, whatever the subject, lists 22 countries that ban "holocaust denial".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

    Organized Jewry have led the way in promoting censorship against historians and others whose views they don't want available to the public. This includes historians like David Irving and many other experts in their fields. Before defaming and bankrupting him, David Irving was widely acclaimed as the leading historian on National Socialist Germany.

    When you compare the leaders of the two adversaries, Holocaust revisionists vs. mainstream Holocaust writers, the mainstream has virtually no technical or scientific people on their side, while the revisionists have many professors, scientists and engineers on their side, and they have virtually all been persecuted by those under the pressure of world Jewry. Those persecuted also include Jews that had an open mind, wanted to know the truth and whose opinions organized Jewry didn't like.

    A few holocaust experts, all revisionists that have studied the so called holocaust from the scientific point of view:

    Arthur Butz - a professor of electrical engineering at Northwestern University, and author of The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, published in 1976

    Friedrich Berg - holds a degree in Mining Engineering from Columbia University

    Fred Leuchter - the leading expert on execution gas chamber technology in the USA before he was driven out of work for doing paid research at Auschwitz and providing evidence against the mainstream view. He was the first person to study the holocaust from a technical perspective.

    Germar Rudolf - chemist that was working on his PHD at the Max Planck institute in the early 1990's, one of the leading scientific institutes in the world (at one time the unchallenged leading scientific institute with many Nobel Prize recipients on its staff) when he was fired from his position and then thrown in jail for the scientific paper he wrote that pertained to the holocaust

    Nicholas Kollerstrom - PhD (1995), history of science, University College London and fired from his position at UCL when his views became known. See here.
    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0804/08042202

    There are many other highly intelligent lawyers, writers and PHD's that studied the holocaust from a non-technical point of view that have been persecuted too. This includes Professor Joel Hayward, a Jew that Wikipedia describes as a "noted scholar of war and strategy" and "best known for his published books and articles on strategic and security matters, including the use of air power, his 2003 biography of Horatio Lord Nelson, and his writing and teaching on the Quranic (Islamic) concepts of war, strategy and conflict." His award winning MA thesis in which he compared the two sides cases, mainstream holocaust historians vs. revisionists made him a hounded man, with his family being threatened with death for writing the thesis. He was persecuted for years before he caved in so he could have a normal life and career.

    There are many others with eloquent and informed points of view, including lawyer Sylvia Stolz, jailed in Germany for a second time for giving this beautiful speech (in Switzerland) to a free speech advocacy group.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqsrjHUCQmI

    And scholars from other fields related to Jewry, whose expertise is not the holocaust are persecuted
    and banned too. The other day the fascinating English historian Andrew Joyce was banned from visiting the USA for his articles/books/speeches on Jews.

    Banned in America…A Sequel, by Andrew Joyce PH.D.
    http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/10/11/banned-in-americaa-sequel/
    , @L.K
    There is no comparison whatsoever between organized Jewry and US's blacks.

    Considering their cohesion, wealth, influence, Jews are by far the most powerful ethno-religious group in the ZUSA.

    They largely control the media, Hollywood, finance, have immense power in politics, etc, etc.

    Blacks have no real power and constitute an under achieving demographic.

    If anything, organized Jewry uses blacks - and other minorities - in their divide and conquer tactics... and it works too.
    , @SolontoCroesus

    So when S2C . . . go[es] on and on, I’m sometimes upset at their stridency and their single-mindedness, but I recognize an American who’s looking for an audience and who’s trying to make a pitch. I’m okay with that
     
    .

    The stridency is a failing that S2C regrets, inasmuch as it interferes with effectiveness.

    That S2C has been ineffective in core mission is painfully obvious in Trump's statement that all but declared war on Iran.

    S2C's core mission is to make broadly known that the same behaviors that involved USA in war(s) that destroyed Germany (and Japan, so much of France & Italy etc.) are being carried out by the same groups against Iraq, Syria, Libya, Iran, with similar intent: to destroy target (aka rogue) states spiritually, morally, economically, politically, culturally and physically, in order to bring them under US/Anglo-Zionist financial and cultural domination.
    (I speak stridently also to warn my own country: The pattern I observe also makes obvious that a key Mover in these affairs frequently destroys its prior ally/host.)

    Once again, apologies for the stridency. If I had the financial resources of The Predator (h/t Lady Michele Renouf https://justice4germans.wordpress.com) I would speak softly or let my wealth speak for me. As it is, having been denied a microphone, my choices are to remain silent or to shout.

    If I sit silently, I have sinned Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @utu
    Because if they lie about the 6m, but it was 3m, (and thus 30% of population and included women and children) that still seems disproportionate suffering and can be easily leveraged politically.

    I do not think that the official 6m number is coming down anytime soon. And you are right that they could get the same political leverage with 3m number. But Holocaust with its 6m number became Jewish Haggadah just like Exodus or Purim. The logic of Haggadah is different than in the western culture. In the western culture we make distinction between what is true and what is not true when it comes to history. In Haggadah there is no distinction between facts and metaphors. If it is useful, if it is good for Jews it must be true. When some memoirs were discovered to be hoaxes like the ones by Benjamin Wilkomirski or Misha Defonseca historian Deborah Lipstadt was forced to acknowledge that they were hoaxes but at the same time said that the books represent the truth and thus can be used in teaching about the Holocaust. So if we really could prove that Elie Wiesel made everything up nothing would have changed. They practiced postmodernism for centuries before it was invented. If the West did not force them out of ghettos in early 19 century they would still be there unaffected by accomplishments of Greek philosophy, Roman laws and Christian ethics. They belong to a different civilization. In Plato dialogs they would be the ones on the side of sophists who did not care about the truth but only about how to win an argument. What matters for them is a story and a text and what you do with them and not whether it is true or not. It must be true if it is useful. It is only because of gentiles and revisionists among them they are occasionally forced to engage in some discourse about facts in western sense because gentiles have some strange old fashioned attachment to the concept of truth. But w/o this challenge they would not bother. So when you watch some people who did record their memories for Spielberg project and find some of them incredulous do not think these people lie. In their minds they do not.

    Thank you. I have some experience with political leveraging of “PR facts”, so I was approaching it from that angle. The info above is part of what I would normally request. First step understanding the objective reality (truth) second the created one (including its merits, rethorical recipe and channels), third the political scenario on the ground, fourth choosing short and mid term strategies for one’s own message. Sometimes the adversary is powerful and chose well, so one can only contain the damage and march on. Fwiw, I think the Holocaust narrative has produced a fatigued public the world over. 

    As to truth in the modern world and winning arguments.. A human being is a wondrous creation. At the deepest levels, our minds are made for truth, and our hearts for purity. So, as somebody said, we must “Act as if everything depended upon our actions, and hope as if everything depended upon God’s.” Not that I wish to sound ‘lofty’, it’s just how I see it.

     

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    "Political leveraging . . . for power and group unity" vs accurate history --


    re:

    "I have some experience with political leveraging of “PR facts”, . . .

    The info above . . . is part of what I would normally request.

    {INSERT:

    The event is used today both as an instrument of power and to foster jewish unity.
    So there would be two types of knowledge that are useful:
    1) The numbers (how many were killed) . . . This would define the contours of the Nazi policy towards the Jews, its results. . .
    2) The numbers that would put the Holocaust in context.


    END insert}

    First step understanding the objective reality (truth)
    second the created one (including its merits, rethorical recipe and channels),
    third the political scenario on the ground,
    fourth choosing short and mid term strategies for one’s own message.
     
    Thank you, anon, for explaining "political leveraging of “PR facts” as applied to Holocaust and its function: -- power and group unity.

    The impression you convey is that you have professional (i.e. trained) skills and employment experience in applying "political leveraging of PR facts."

    My perspective is far different and evolves from an untrained, amateur foundation; based on my understanding of the devastating consequences of misinterpreting 'history,' I think it is critical, even "Croesus-ial" that it be accurate; anything less and you lose your country.

    The first book on WWII/Hitler that I can recall -- from nearly 30 years ago -- was titled, "Psychopathic God." The epigraph -- thence the title -- is from Auden's "September 1939":

    Accurate scholarship can
    Unearth the whole offence
    From Luther until now
    That has driven a culture mad,
    Find what occurred at Linz,
    What huge imago made
    A psychopathic god:
    I and the public know
    What all schoolchildren learn,
    Those to whom evil is done
    Do evil in return.

    "Accurate scholarship" to discern what really happened seems a worthy goal. (For what it's worth, imo the "numbers" are among the least important facts that "accurate scholarship" must unearth.)

    Your goals seems different from my own. Based on limited knowledge of what you do, but aware of the effectiveness of "political leveraging," your goals seem to confound my own.

    Your goals may fulfill the purposes you identify in the short term, but in the long term, only accurate scholarship will satisfy the individual human heart and the entire family of man, as you eloquently stated:

    At the deepest levels, our minds are made for truth, and our hearts for purity.

    In 2011, Jeremy Ben-Ami discussed his book, "A New Voice for Israel," about a then-new organization, J-Street. Toward the end of the event, Ben-Ami was asked:

    I was wondering if you would talk a little bit about teaching a nuanced view on the conflict
    for Jewish Day school and Sunday schools. How should teachers in your opinion go about teaching a nuanced view while remaining sensitive to the development of their people’s love for Israel?
     
    Ben Ami responded:

    Since you are going to one of the teachers of my kids, I better come up with a good answer for you, right?
    I think you have to tell the truth.
    You know, I think that is one of the things that I found in my own personal development that I resented — that I was never being given the whole story. And the mythology is wonderful, but when you find out that it’s mythology, the reaction against it is far harsher and more extreme than the difficulties that you encounter if you hear the truth from the beginning.
     
    https://www.c-span.org/video/?301263-1/new-voice-israel&start=3238
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anon
    Utu:
    Butting in on this discussion, which to me is mostly relevant because we are still VERY aware, talking and fighting over Holocaust existence/real contours. The event is used today both as an instrument of power and to foster jewish unity.

    So there would be two types of knowledge that are useful:
    1) The numbers (how many were killed) and some definitions (labeled enemy of State, included women and children, ghettos, labor or extermination camps, etc. )This would define the contours of the Nazi policy towards the Jews, its results, and really should be a couple of paragraphs.
    2) The numbers that would put the Holocaust in context. This is trickier, but I'd suppose it would center around civilian or non combatant loss of life or disproportionate/unlawful suffering (Pow maybe?).

    Do you have suggestions for #2? Because if they lie about the 6m, but it was 3m, (and thus 30% of population and included women and children) that still seems disproportionate suffering and can be easily leveraged politically. And I personally don't know how the 6m was obtained in the first place?

    Of course one could cite other genocides (Vendée, Armenia, Gulag, Ukraine), but 'Holocaust' is like Kleenex, it has the advantage of "first marketing", i.e. brand name recognition.

    Because if they lie about the 6m, but it was 3m, (and thus 30% of population and included women and children) that still seems disproportionate suffering and can be easily leveraged politically.

    I do not think that the official 6m number is coming down anytime soon. And you are right that they could get the same political leverage with 3m number. But Holocaust with its 6m number became Jewish Haggadah just like Exodus or Purim. The logic of Haggadah is different than in the western culture. In the western culture we make distinction between what is true and what is not true when it comes to history. In Haggadah there is no distinction between facts and metaphors. If it is useful, if it is good for Jews it must be true. When some memoirs were discovered to be hoaxes like the ones by Benjamin Wilkomirski or Misha Defonseca historian Deborah Lipstadt was forced to acknowledge that they were hoaxes but at the same time said that the books represent the truth and thus can be used in teaching about the Holocaust. So if we really could prove that Elie Wiesel made everything up nothing would have changed. They practiced postmodernism for centuries before it was invented. If the West did not force them out of ghettos in early 19 century they would still be there unaffected by accomplishments of Greek philosophy, Roman laws and Christian ethics. They belong to a different civilization. In Plato dialogs they would be the ones on the side of sophists who did not care about the truth but only about how to win an argument. What matters for them is a story and a text and what you do with them and not whether it is true or not. It must be true if it is useful. It is only because of gentiles and revisionists among them they are occasionally forced to engage in some discourse about facts in western sense because gentiles have some strange old fashioned attachment to the concept of truth. But w/o this challenge they would not bother. So when you watch some people who did record their memories for Spielberg project and find some of them incredulous do not think these people lie. In their minds they do not.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Thank you. I have some experience with political leveraging of "PR facts", so I was approaching it from that angle. The info above is part of what I would normally request. First step understanding the objective reality (truth) second the created one (including its merits, rethorical recipe and channels), third the political scenario on the ground, fourth choosing short and mid term strategies for one's own message. Sometimes the adversary is powerful and chose well, so one can only contain the damage and march on. Fwiw, I think the Holocaust narrative has produced a fatigued public the world over. 

    As to truth in the modern world and winning arguments.. A human being is a wondrous creation. At the deepest levels, our minds are made for truth, and our hearts for purity. So, as somebody said, we must "Act as if everything depended upon our actions, and hope as if everything depended upon God's." Not that I wish to sound 'lofty', it's just how I see it.



     
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  • @SolontoCroesus
    Edwin Black ??

    IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation

    Nazi Nexus: America's Corporate Connections to Hitler's Holocaust

    British Petroleum and the Redline Agreement: The West's Secret Pact to Get Mideast Oil

    S2C, yeah, I think I sort of recall seeing titles like that in my local Borders maybe twenty years ago. I wrote it off as Holocaust porno, laying the groundwork for big-bucks shakedowns of American companies for selling paper clips to uniformed guys with funny German accents. Not sure if there were any money settlements wrested from American companies.

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  • @Seraphim
    @Jews toward the end of war were deported from Germany

    Like Elie Wiesel who preferred to walk the 'Death March' from Auschwitz TO Germany, rather than be 'liberated' by the glorious Red Army? And he was not alone!

    I meant German Jews who were deported from Germany East. I wrote it in the context of death from Allied bombings. Then there was evacuate of KL’s in the East as Red Army was approaching in late 1944 and early 1945. Two different things.

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  • @utu
    utu, can you offer your own figure and brief discussion?

    3 million dead (30% of European Jewry) is a minimum that can be arrived via very conservative demographics of countries that lost most Jews in Europe like Poland, SU, Hungary, Germany, Lithuania, Holland. Yad Vashem claims they have a list of over 4 million names of Jews who did not survive WWII.

    Small fraction of Jews died as results of participation in active combat duties. For instance Poland had 150k military casualties. This would imply 15k Jews at 10%. The SU allegedly lost 11 millions soldiers. This would imply 374k Jews at 3.4%.

    How many could have died as result of collateral damage like bombings in cities. Again one can go by percentage of Jewish population in various countries but the number need to be lowered because Jews were being deported during the war. Or like in Germany from 0.75% in 1993 because of pre WW II emigration the number was reduced by 1/2 at least in 1939 and then Jews toward the end of war were deported from Germany. So not many Jews could have died in Allied bombings of Germany the country was bombed the most. Poland and Eastern Europe was not bombed by Allies that much.

    utu, thanks for your reply. We have no quarrel here, and I don’t have any emotional skin in the game. I did my guesstimate with public library-quality reference books years ago as a way of exercising some citizen’s due diligence. I do agree with comment #195 that there ought to be some differentiation by, for example, lawfulness or unlawfulness of the death, as a way of getting at the degree of disproportionality of Jewish suffering.

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  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    Indeed, he was accompanied by his father, who had been in the Auschwitz infirmary!

    At least one “peri-Holocaustal” story I know has the making of comic shtick. A very elderly local guy who’d made good said his family left Czechoslovakia in the mid-1930s to escape the Nazis. As shtick in Brooklynese: “We wuz so damned scared of de Nazis, we ran from dem even when dey wuzn’t dere.” Czechoslovakia in the mid-1930s was pre-Munich Agreement, pre-entry of German troops.

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  • @JackOH
    Beefcake, that ship has already sailed. Used to be a former Office of Special Investigation guy (Ryan?) working the lecture circuit talking up American corporations' "complicity" in the Nazi persecution of Jews. IBM, Ford Motor, all that. The opportunistic "loophole" is that the U. S. and Nazi Germany were nominally at peace until Hitler declared war in 1941, so, yeah, IBM sold products to the Reich. Not sure that conduces to complicity. Plenty of people sold Bonnie and Clyde postage stamps, canned beans, and gasoline without being complicit in their murder and robbery spree.

    Edwin Black ??

    IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi Germany and America’s Most Powerful Corporation

    Nazi Nexus: America’s Corporate Connections to Hitler’s Holocaust

    British Petroleum and the Redline Agreement: The West’s Secret Pact to Get Mideast Oil

    Read More
    • Replies: @JackOH
    S2C, yeah, I think I sort of recall seeing titles like that in my local Borders maybe twenty years ago. I wrote it off as Holocaust porno, laying the groundwork for big-bucks shakedowns of American companies for selling paper clips to uniformed guys with funny German accents. Not sure if there were any money settlements wrested from American companies.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • According to International Red Cross figures, approximately 731,000 people perished in the camps from ALL causes. This was particularly harsh at the end of the war because of typhus. NOT ONE RED CROSS OFFICIAL EVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT “GAS CHAMBERS” OR “OVENS”. As International Red Cross officials had free run of all the camps, certainly any evidence of “gas chambers” ovens, or mass killings would have been noted…another nail in the coffin of the “great holohoax” lie…

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  • Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @utu
    utu, can you offer your own figure and brief discussion?

    3 million dead (30% of European Jewry) is a minimum that can be arrived via very conservative demographics of countries that lost most Jews in Europe like Poland, SU, Hungary, Germany, Lithuania, Holland. Yad Vashem claims they have a list of over 4 million names of Jews who did not survive WWII.

    Small fraction of Jews died as results of participation in active combat duties. For instance Poland had 150k military casualties. This would imply 15k Jews at 10%. The SU allegedly lost 11 millions soldiers. This would imply 374k Jews at 3.4%.

    How many could have died as result of collateral damage like bombings in cities. Again one can go by percentage of Jewish population in various countries but the number need to be lowered because Jews were being deported during the war. Or like in Germany from 0.75% in 1993 because of pre WW II emigration the number was reduced by 1/2 at least in 1939 and then Jews toward the end of war were deported from Germany. So not many Jews could have died in Allied bombings of Germany the country was bombed the most. Poland and Eastern Europe was not bombed by Allies that much.

    Utu:
    Butting in on this discussion, which to me is mostly relevant because we are still VERY aware, talking and fighting over Holocaust existence/real contours. The event is used today both as an instrument of power and to foster jewish unity.

    So there would be two types of knowledge that are useful:
    1) The numbers (how many were killed) and some definitions (labeled enemy of State, included women and children, ghettos, labor or extermination camps, etc. )This would define the contours of the Nazi policy towards the Jews, its results, and really should be a couple of paragraphs.
    2) The numbers that would put the Holocaust in context. This is trickier, but I’d suppose it would center around civilian or non combatant loss of life or disproportionate/unlawful suffering (Pow maybe?).

    Do you have suggestions for #2? Because if they lie about the 6m, but it was 3m, (and thus 30% of population and included women and children) that still seems disproportionate suffering and can be easily leveraged politically. And I personally don’t know how the 6m was obtained in the first place?

    Of course one could cite other genocides (Vendée, Armenia, Gulag, Ukraine), but ‘Holocaust’ is like Kleenex, it has the advantage of “first marketing”, i.e. brand name recognition.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    Because if they lie about the 6m, but it was 3m, (and thus 30% of population and included women and children) that still seems disproportionate suffering and can be easily leveraged politically.

    I do not think that the official 6m number is coming down anytime soon. And you are right that they could get the same political leverage with 3m number. But Holocaust with its 6m number became Jewish Haggadah just like Exodus or Purim. The logic of Haggadah is different than in the western culture. In the western culture we make distinction between what is true and what is not true when it comes to history. In Haggadah there is no distinction between facts and metaphors. If it is useful, if it is good for Jews it must be true. When some memoirs were discovered to be hoaxes like the ones by Benjamin Wilkomirski or Misha Defonseca historian Deborah Lipstadt was forced to acknowledge that they were hoaxes but at the same time said that the books represent the truth and thus can be used in teaching about the Holocaust. So if we really could prove that Elie Wiesel made everything up nothing would have changed. They practiced postmodernism for centuries before it was invented. If the West did not force them out of ghettos in early 19 century they would still be there unaffected by accomplishments of Greek philosophy, Roman laws and Christian ethics. They belong to a different civilization. In Plato dialogs they would be the ones on the side of sophists who did not care about the truth but only about how to win an argument. What matters for them is a story and a text and what you do with them and not whether it is true or not. It must be true if it is useful. It is only because of gentiles and revisionists among them they are occasionally forced to engage in some discourse about facts in western sense because gentiles have some strange old fashioned attachment to the concept of truth. But w/o this challenge they would not bother. So when you watch some people who did record their memories for Spielberg project and find some of them incredulous do not think these people lie. In their minds they do not.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    Indeed, he was accompanied by his father, who had been in the Auschwitz infirmary!

    You got it! But still it’s no all.

    According to our trusted Wikipedia:

    “Apart from the [westward] evacuation of [millions] civilians, the Germans also evacuated Nazi concentration camp prisoners from the WVHA controlled enterprises, who were forced to walk to the Austrian and German borders as the Soviets approached from the east. The German SS evacuated camp after camp as the war drew to a close, sending at least 250,000 men and women on death marches starting in March and April 1945. Some of those marches to the geographical centres of Germany and Austria lasted for weeks, causing thousands of deaths along the road”.
    With the risk of exposing again myself to the derision of utu, I remember the words of an old Jewish lady who was deported at the beginning of the war to Transnistria, but was returned to Romania in 1944: ‘Do you know who saved us? The SS officers!” The circumstances in which he told me that story were of such a nature that her sincerity could not be put in any doubt whatsoever.

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  • @Seraphim
    @Jews toward the end of war were deported from Germany

    Like Elie Wiesel who preferred to walk the 'Death March' from Auschwitz TO Germany, rather than be 'liberated' by the glorious Red Army? And he was not alone!

    Indeed, he was accompanied by his father, who had been in the Auschwitz infirmary!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    You got it! But still it's no all.

    According to our trusted Wikipedia:

    "Apart from the [westward] evacuation of [millions] civilians, the Germans also evacuated Nazi concentration camp prisoners from the WVHA controlled enterprises, who were forced to walk to the Austrian and German borders as the Soviets approached from the east. The German SS evacuated camp after camp as the war drew to a close, sending at least 250,000 men and women on death marches starting in March and April 1945. Some of those marches to the geographical centres of Germany and Austria lasted for weeks, causing thousands of deaths along the road".
    With the risk of exposing again myself to the derision of utu, I remember the words of an old Jewish lady who was deported at the beginning of the war to Transnistria, but was returned to Romania in 1944: 'Do you know who saved us? The SS officers!" The circumstances in which he told me that story were of such a nature that her sincerity could not be put in any doubt whatsoever.
    , @JackOH
    At least one "peri-Holocaustal" story I know has the making of comic shtick. A very elderly local guy who'd made good said his family left Czechoslovakia in the mid-1930s to escape the Nazis. As shtick in Brooklynese: "We wuz so damned scared of de Nazis, we ran from dem even when dey wuzn't dere." Czechoslovakia in the mid-1930s was pre-Munich Agreement, pre-entry of German troops.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @utu
    utu, can you offer your own figure and brief discussion?

    3 million dead (30% of European Jewry) is a minimum that can be arrived via very conservative demographics of countries that lost most Jews in Europe like Poland, SU, Hungary, Germany, Lithuania, Holland. Yad Vashem claims they have a list of over 4 million names of Jews who did not survive WWII.

    Small fraction of Jews died as results of participation in active combat duties. For instance Poland had 150k military casualties. This would imply 15k Jews at 10%. The SU allegedly lost 11 millions soldiers. This would imply 374k Jews at 3.4%.

    How many could have died as result of collateral damage like bombings in cities. Again one can go by percentage of Jewish population in various countries but the number need to be lowered because Jews were being deported during the war. Or like in Germany from 0.75% in 1993 because of pre WW II emigration the number was reduced by 1/2 at least in 1939 and then Jews toward the end of war were deported from Germany. So not many Jews could have died in Allied bombings of Germany the country was bombed the most. Poland and Eastern Europe was not bombed by Allies that much.

    @Jews toward the end of war were deported from Germany

    Like Elie Wiesel who preferred to walk the ‘Death March’ from Auschwitz TO Germany, rather than be ‘liberated’ by the glorious Red Army? And he was not alone!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Indeed, he was accompanied by his father, who had been in the Auschwitz infirmary!
    , @utu
    I meant German Jews who were deported from Germany East. I wrote it in the context of death from Allied bombings. Then there was evacuate of KL's in the East as Red Army was approaching in late 1944 and early 1945. Two different things.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    I think eventually every European country, and probably the US, will be accused of complicity in the Holocaust.

    Beefcake, that ship has already sailed. Used to be a former Office of Special Investigation guy (Ryan?) working the lecture circuit talking up American corporations’ “complicity” in the Nazi persecution of Jews. IBM, Ford Motor, all that. The opportunistic “loophole” is that the U. S. and Nazi Germany were nominally at peace until Hitler declared war in 1941, so, yeah, IBM sold products to the Reich. Not sure that conduces to complicity. Plenty of people sold Bonnie and Clyde postage stamps, canned beans, and gasoline without being complicit in their murder and robbery spree.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Edwin Black ??

    IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation

    Nazi Nexus: America's Corporate Connections to Hitler's Holocaust

    British Petroleum and the Redline Agreement: The West's Secret Pact to Get Mideast Oil
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @JackOH
    utu, can you offer your own figure and brief discussion?

    utu, can you offer your own figure and brief discussion?

    3 million dead (30% of European Jewry) is a minimum that can be arrived via very conservative demographics of countries that lost most Jews in Europe like Poland, SU, Hungary, Germany, Lithuania, Holland. Yad Vashem claims they have a list of over 4 million names of Jews who did not survive WWII.

    Small fraction of Jews died as results of participation in active combat duties. For instance Poland had 150k military casualties. This would imply 15k Jews at 10%. The SU allegedly lost 11 millions soldiers. This would imply 374k Jews at 3.4%.

    How many could have died as result of collateral damage like bombings in cities. Again one can go by percentage of Jewish population in various countries but the number need to be lowered because Jews were being deported during the war. Or like in Germany from 0.75% in 1993 because of pre WW II emigration the number was reduced by 1/2 at least in 1939 and then Jews toward the end of war were deported from Germany. So not many Jews could have died in Allied bombings of Germany the country was bombed the most. Poland and Eastern Europe was not bombed by Allies that much.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    @Jews toward the end of war were deported from Germany

    Like Elie Wiesel who preferred to walk the 'Death March' from Auschwitz TO Germany, rather than be 'liberated' by the glorious Red Army? And he was not alone!

    , @Anon
    Utu:
    Butting in on this discussion, which to me is mostly relevant because we are still VERY aware, talking and fighting over Holocaust existence/real contours. The event is used today both as an instrument of power and to foster jewish unity.

    So there would be two types of knowledge that are useful:
    1) The numbers (how many were killed) and some definitions (labeled enemy of State, included women and children, ghettos, labor or extermination camps, etc. )This would define the contours of the Nazi policy towards the Jews, its results, and really should be a couple of paragraphs.
    2) The numbers that would put the Holocaust in context. This is trickier, but I'd suppose it would center around civilian or non combatant loss of life or disproportionate/unlawful suffering (Pow maybe?).

    Do you have suggestions for #2? Because if they lie about the 6m, but it was 3m, (and thus 30% of population and included women and children) that still seems disproportionate suffering and can be easily leveraged politically. And I personally don't know how the 6m was obtained in the first place?

    Of course one could cite other genocides (Vendée, Armenia, Gulag, Ukraine), but 'Holocaust' is like Kleenex, it has the advantage of "first marketing", i.e. brand name recognition.
    , @JackOH
    utu, thanks for your reply. We have no quarrel here, and I don't have any emotional skin in the game. I did my guesstimate with public library-quality reference books years ago as a way of exercising some citizen's due diligence. I do agree with comment #195 that there ought to be some differentiation by, for example, lawfulness or unlawfulness of the death, as a way of getting at the degree of disproportionality of Jewish suffering.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @L.K
    My late friend, Mr. Heink, wrote a piece on the silly hoaxter's tactic of asking, where are they, then?
    Conclusion
    Jews served in the Red Army – a number of them were killed – how many we don’t know. Jews fought as partisans – a number of them were killed – how many we don’t know. Jews were deported by the Germans, forced to serve as slave labour – a number of them died – how many we don’t know. Jews fled ahead of the advancing Germans or were evacuated by the Soviet authorities – how many we don’t know. Jews fled via other countries – how many we don’t know. Jews hid in the forest – how many we don’t know. Jews converted to Catholicism – how many we don’t know. Jews were helped to escape/emigrate by the locals - how many we don’t know. Jews changed their names – how many we don’t know. Jews were helped following the war by various organizations to relocate - how many we don’t know. Etc., etc.[ this is also a big one, bc very large numbers of East European Jews ended up, incrementally over many years, in the US, Israel, Argentina, Brazil, Canada and many other countries. I saw a case of a family that at first, went to Cuba, right after the war, and then later, in the 50s or 60s, moved to the US. Heck, it is impossible to know how many Jews there exist today anywhere, except for Israel ]
    It is therefore impossible to construct a "Holocaust by demographics", because of the many unknowns. Thus, the question: "Well, where are they then?" is a moot question. If we are to believe that "The Holocaust" happened, a solid case for mass murder has to be made. So far this has not been done, and those who claim that "it" did happen, have to realize that it cannot be proven simply by repeating ad nauseam the question: "Well, where are they then?"
    In reality, the question is a declaration of bankruptcy, because by asking it is admitted that no solid case for mass murder can be made, for if it were, there would exist no need to ask the question.

    The list of rhetorical “we do not know” – questions may work on ignorant ones when given in theatrical speech or sermon. Yes, definitively it belongs to a sermon. Was your friend, Mr. Heink a preacher? Many of these questions have answers and/or good estimates. They do not belong to we do not know list.

    For example:

    Jews served in the Red Army – Get number of killed soldiers and multiply by the fraction of Jewish population in the USSR. Probably it will be an overestimate as it is believed that Jews often avoided draft or when drafted frequently could find themselves in non combat positions.

    Jews converted to Catholicism – It did not work because of Nuremberg laws. Judenrats often were giving the list of converts to Gestapo even if Christians wanted to protect the converts.

    Jews hid in the forest; Jews fought as partisans – irrelevantly small numbers

    Jews were helped to escape/emigrate by the locals – The awards of the Righteous Among The Nations can give you an idea how many people were helped and survived and were ready to point to gentiles who helped them. You can safely multiply this number by 100 or even 1000 to get the actual number. The estimates of saved Jews who were kept in hiding are available. Though each country tend to maximize this number while Jews rather want to minimize it.

    East European Jews ended up, incrementally over many years, in the US, Israel, Argentina, Brazil, Canada – correct but these numbers we actually know.

    forced to serve as slave labour – a number of them died – This is the crux of the matter. How many of them died because of bad conditions in labor camps and how many were intentionally killed and then whether the bad conditions leading to death were intentional? For Jews this distinction is irrelevant, however it would be good to know what percent of death was due to executions.

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  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    It is true that Jews were subjected to particularly harsh treatment. There were mass shootings (in the course of anti-partisan actions), mass deportations, and the overall context of war on the eastern front was scorched earth policies employed by the Soviets (who used their disregard for their subjects as a weapon) in which all civilians suffered terribly. But the 2M ballpark number for Jewish deaths (including both normal war casualties, anti-partisan warfare, and anti-Jewish demographic policies) is quite reasonable IMO. It’s essentially the number Walter Sanning derives in the only real systemic study of the issue:

    https://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=29

    My late friend, Mr. Heink, wrote a piece on the silly hoaxter’s tactic of asking, where are they, then?
    Conclusion
    Jews served in the Red Army – a number of them were killed – how many we don’t know. Jews fought as partisans – a number of them were killed – how many we don’t know. Jews were deported by the Germans, forced to serve as slave labour – a number of them died – how many we don’t know. Jews fled ahead of the advancing Germans or were evacuated by the Soviet authorities – how many we don’t know. Jews fled via other countries – how many we don’t know. Jews hid in the forest – how many we don’t know. Jews converted to Catholicism – how many we don’t know. Jews were helped to escape/emigrate by the locals – how many we don’t know. Jews changed their names – how many we don’t know. Jews were helped following the war by various organizations to relocate – how many we don’t know. Etc., etc.[ this is also a big one, bc very large numbers of East European Jews ended up, incrementally over many years, in the US, Israel, Argentina, Brazil, Canada and many other countries. I saw a case of a family that at first, went to Cuba, right after the war, and then later, in the 50s or 60s, moved to the US. Heck, it is impossible to know how many Jews there exist today anywhere, except for Israel ]
    It is therefore impossible to construct a “Holocaust by demographics”, because of the many unknowns. Thus, the question: “Well, where are they then?” is a moot question. If we are to believe that “The Holocaust” happened, a solid case for mass murder has to be made. So far this has not been done, and those who claim that “it” did happen, have to realize that it cannot be proven simply by repeating ad nauseam the question: “Well, where are they then?”
    In reality, the question is a declaration of bankruptcy, because by asking it is admitted that no solid case for mass murder can be made, for if it were, there would exist no need to ask the question.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    The list of rhetorical "we do not know" - questions may work on ignorant ones when given in theatrical speech or sermon. Yes, definitively it belongs to a sermon. Was your friend, Mr. Heink a preacher? Many of these questions have answers and/or good estimates. They do not belong to we do not know list.

    For example:

    Jews served in the Red Army - Get number of killed soldiers and multiply by the fraction of Jewish population in the USSR. Probably it will be an overestimate as it is believed that Jews often avoided draft or when drafted frequently could find themselves in non combat positions.

    Jews converted to Catholicism - It did not work because of Nuremberg laws. Judenrats often were giving the list of converts to Gestapo even if Christians wanted to protect the converts.

    Jews hid in the forest; Jews fought as partisans - irrelevantly small numbers

    Jews were helped to escape/emigrate by the locals - The awards of the Righteous Among The Nations can give you an idea how many people were helped and survived and were ready to point to gentiles who helped them. You can safely multiply this number by 100 or even 1000 to get the actual number. The estimates of saved Jews who were kept in hiding are available. Though each country tend to maximize this number while Jews rather want to minimize it.

    East European Jews ended up, incrementally over many years, in the US, Israel, Argentina, Brazil, Canada - correct but these numbers we actually know.

    forced to serve as slave labour – a number of them died - This is the crux of the matter. How many of them died because of bad conditions in labor camps and how many were intentionally killed and then whether the bad conditions leading to death were intentional? For Jews this distinction is irrelevant, however it would be good to know what percent of death was due to executions.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @utu
    many of whom would be Jewish combatants in Allied forces, Jewish shopkeepers who took an artillery shell

    This is a wrong track. 2 orders of magnitude too small effect. Combatants you can easily estimate by looking at Allied combatants losses and taking fraction proportional to Jewish population in a given country. Civilian population killed during combat and bombardment again does not add up to much either. The bottom line is you can't have a minority sustain higher losses than majority due to random acts or war and combat.

    Jews were treated differently than other population in occupied countries. Thew were kept in closed ghettos, they were rounded up and they were deported.

    It is true that Jews were subjected to particularly harsh treatment. There were mass shootings (in the course of anti-partisan actions), mass deportations, and the overall context of war on the eastern front was scorched earth policies employed by the Soviets (who used their disregard for their subjects as a weapon) in which all civilians suffered terribly. But the 2M ballpark number for Jewish deaths (including both normal war casualties, anti-partisan warfare, and anti-Jewish demographic policies) is quite reasonable IMO. It’s essentially the number Walter Sanning derives in the only real systemic study of the issue:

    https://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=29

    Read More
    • Replies: @L.K
    My late friend, Mr. Heink, wrote a piece on the silly hoaxter's tactic of asking, where are they, then?
    Conclusion
    Jews served in the Red Army – a number of them were killed – how many we don’t know. Jews fought as partisans – a number of them were killed – how many we don’t know. Jews were deported by the Germans, forced to serve as slave labour – a number of them died – how many we don’t know. Jews fled ahead of the advancing Germans or were evacuated by the Soviet authorities – how many we don’t know. Jews fled via other countries – how many we don’t know. Jews hid in the forest – how many we don’t know. Jews converted to Catholicism – how many we don’t know. Jews were helped to escape/emigrate by the locals - how many we don’t know. Jews changed their names – how many we don’t know. Jews were helped following the war by various organizations to relocate - how many we don’t know. Etc., etc.[ this is also a big one, bc very large numbers of East European Jews ended up, incrementally over many years, in the US, Israel, Argentina, Brazil, Canada and many other countries. I saw a case of a family that at first, went to Cuba, right after the war, and then later, in the 50s or 60s, moved to the US. Heck, it is impossible to know how many Jews there exist today anywhere, except for Israel ]
    It is therefore impossible to construct a "Holocaust by demographics", because of the many unknowns. Thus, the question: "Well, where are they then?" is a moot question. If we are to believe that "The Holocaust" happened, a solid case for mass murder has to be made. So far this has not been done, and those who claim that "it" did happen, have to realize that it cannot be proven simply by repeating ad nauseam the question: "Well, where are they then?"
    In reality, the question is a declaration of bankruptcy, because by asking it is admitted that no solid case for mass murder can be made, for if it were, there would exist no need to ask the question.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Seraphim
    It is worth knowing what the links cited by Beefcake said.
    Here are the direct words of James N. Rosenberg made in 1943, direct from the horse's mouth!
    JTA of Jul. 1, 1943:

    "Russia Helped 1,750,000 Jews to Escape Nazis, Says James N. Rosenberg":

    “Russia has saved over ten times as many Jews from Nazi extermination as all the rest of the world put together,” James N. Rosenberg, American Jewish leader, declared here today in an address of welcome which he delivered at a reception given at the Astor Hotel to Solomon Mikhoels and Itzik Feffer, the Jewish cultural delegation from Russia. The reception was attended by several hundred representatives of various Jewish organizations.
    Emphasizing that he based his estimate of those saved on facts gathered by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Mr. Rosenberg quoted the organization’s journal as reporting that “of some 1,750,000 Jews who succeeded in escaping the Axis since the outbreak of hostilities, about 1,600,000 were evacuated by the Soviet Government from Eastern Poland and subsequently occupied Soviet territory and transported far into the Russian interior and beyond the Urals. About 150,000 others managed to reach Palestine, the United States, and other countries beyond the seas.
    “We Jews,” Mr. Rosenberg said, “rightly give thanks for the innumerable resolutions of sympathy for Jews, adopted by well-meaning men and groups horrified by the hideous tragedy which has befallen our people. Russia has chosen deeds. She has given life, asylum, bread, and shelter to a vast Jewish population. These facts are not sufficiently known. To make them known to every Jew in this country is a task of supreme importance for the Jewish Council for Russian War Relief. Need I ask what would have happened to those Jews had Russia left them where they were?”
    Number of Jews in Europe in 1939 6.5 million. Minus 1.75 million saved by SU equals...6 million 'exterminated'. It is less known that in March 1940 600,000 Polish Jews refugees to the SU were granted Soviet citizenship. I let you do the maths. I've done it so many times that I got tired.
    And it's not all. For instance, out of the 3-4,ooo,ooo of Jews from Romania-Hungary 'exterminated'... 380,000-400,000 were still in Romania at the end of the war (including the returnees from the camps in Transnistria).

    Europe in 1939 6.5 million – more like 9.5. Poland and European USSR was about 5.5

    out of the 3-4,ooo,ooo of Jews from Romania-Hungary – Hungary 450k, Rumania – 750k

    It is less known that in March 1940 600,000 Polish Jews refugees to the SU were granted Soviet citizenship. – The estimate of refugees, i.e., those who left German zone to Soviet zone of occupied Poland is 200-300k. I do not know how many accepted citizenship, but those Polish citizens (including Jews) who did could avoid deportations into the SU. This was one reason why people were accepting the citizenship. Still there were some Jews deported to SU though majority of deportees were non-Jewish Poles.

    Now, the article you citing here is an interesting piece of pro Soviet Propaganda. Probably it was part of the effort to double down the pro Soviet lobbying and money collection particularly form non-communist Jews who were not in love with Stalin and who remembered that Soviets were responsible for Germany attacking Poland in the first place unlike the communist Jewish contingent in New York which until June 22, 1941 was vehemently opposing the war and was on the side of America First on orders from Moscow because of Ribbentrop-Molotov pact that Stalin respect to the dot.

    We Jews,” Mr. Rosenberg said, “rightly give thanks for the innumerable resolutions of sympathy for Jews, adopted by well-meaning men and groups horrified by the hideous tragedy which has befallen our people. Russia has chosen deeds. She has given life, asylum, bread, and shelter to a vast Jewish population. These facts are not sufficiently known. To make them known to every Jew in this country is a task of supreme importance for the Jewish Council for Russian War Relief. Need I ask what would have happened to those Jews had Russia left them where they were?”

    The numbers 1,750,000 or 1,600,000 may approximate Jewish population in Eastern Poland plus the 200-300k of refugees from Western Poland. However, there was no purposeful evacuation of Jews when Germany attacked in June 1941. NKVD was more concerned with killing off remaining prisoners in their facilities and evacuating themselves.

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  • @utu
    many of whom would be Jewish combatants in Allied forces, Jewish shopkeepers who took an artillery shell

    This is a wrong track. 2 orders of magnitude too small effect. Combatants you can easily estimate by looking at Allied combatants losses and taking fraction proportional to Jewish population in a given country. Civilian population killed during combat and bombardment again does not add up to much either. The bottom line is you can't have a minority sustain higher losses than majority due to random acts or war and combat.

    Jews were treated differently than other population in occupied countries. Thew were kept in closed ghettos, they were rounded up and they were deported.

    utu, can you offer your own figure and brief discussion?

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    • Replies: @utu
    utu, can you offer your own figure and brief discussion?

    3 million dead (30% of European Jewry) is a minimum that can be arrived via very conservative demographics of countries that lost most Jews in Europe like Poland, SU, Hungary, Germany, Lithuania, Holland. Yad Vashem claims they have a list of over 4 million names of Jews who did not survive WWII.

    Small fraction of Jews died as results of participation in active combat duties. For instance Poland had 150k military casualties. This would imply 15k Jews at 10%. The SU allegedly lost 11 millions soldiers. This would imply 374k Jews at 3.4%.

    How many could have died as result of collateral damage like bombings in cities. Again one can go by percentage of Jewish population in various countries but the number need to be lowered because Jews were being deported during the war. Or like in Germany from 0.75% in 1993 because of pre WW II emigration the number was reduced by 1/2 at least in 1939 and then Jews toward the end of war were deported from Germany. So not many Jews could have died in Allied bombings of Germany the country was bombed the most. Poland and Eastern Europe was not bombed by Allies that much.
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  • many of whom would be Jewish combatants in Allied forces, Jewish shopkeepers who took an artillery shell

    This is a wrong track. 2 orders of magnitude too small effect. Combatants you can easily estimate by looking at Allied combatants losses and taking fraction proportional to Jewish population in a given country. Civilian population killed during combat and bombardment again does not add up to much either. The bottom line is you can’t have a minority sustain higher losses than majority due to random acts or war and combat.

    Jews were treated differently than other population in occupied countries. Thew were kept in closed ghettos, they were rounded up and they were deported.

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    • Replies: @JackOH
    utu, can you offer your own figure and brief discussion?
    , @Beefcake the Mighty
    It is true that Jews were subjected to particularly harsh treatment. There were mass shootings (in the course of anti-partisan actions), mass deportations, and the overall context of war on the eastern front was scorched earth policies employed by the Soviets (who used their disregard for their subjects as a weapon) in which all civilians suffered terribly. But the 2M ballpark number for Jewish deaths (including both normal war casualties, anti-partisan warfare, and anti-Jewish demographic policies) is quite reasonable IMO. It’s essentially the number Walter Sanning derives in the only real systemic study of the issue:

    https://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=29
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  • @utu
    don’t expect utu to concede any points though

    Apparently you haven't read what I wrote here so far. I do not believe in the canonical Holocaust narrative that entered the popular consciousness via countless books, films and survivors' testimonies. But I do believe that many Jews died. The question is how many, how and when and where. How far down can we push the 6m number? What is the lower bound? Personally I do not believe it can be lower than 3 millions. By current standards I am a Holocaust denier, however, I am more educated than, say Wally here and thus my approach is much more judicious and nuanced, though I doubt it would be counted as a mitigating circumstance in German or Israel's court, so I could end up having a dubious pleasure of sharing the same cell with Wally.

    utu, years ago I did a rough guesstimate of how many European Jews died during the 1939-1945 period as a result of the war. My guesstimate was 2 million, many of whom would be Jewish combatants in Allied forces, Jewish shopkeepers who took an artillery shell, and, of course, those who died at Auschwitz and other camps. But, you’re right, of course, that the established Holocaust narrative is likely more “brittle”, or “deoxygenated”, than most of us would like to think.

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  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    Some links to the JTA claims about Soviet evacuation of Jews can be found here:

    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=11353&p=85500#p85500

    It is worth knowing what the links cited by Beefcake said.
    Here are the direct words of James N. Rosenberg made in 1943, direct from the horse’s mouth!
    JTA of Jul. 1, 1943:

    “Russia Helped 1,750,000 Jews to Escape Nazis, Says James N. Rosenberg”:

    “Russia has saved over ten times as many Jews from Nazi extermination as all the rest of the world put together,” James N. Rosenberg, American Jewish leader, declared here today in an address of welcome which he delivered at a reception given at the Astor Hotel to Solomon Mikhoels and Itzik Feffer, the Jewish cultural delegation from Russia. The reception was attended by several hundred representatives of various Jewish organizations.
    Emphasizing that he based his estimate of those saved on facts gathered by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Mr. Rosenberg quoted the organization’s journal as reporting that “of some 1,750,000 Jews who succeeded in escaping the Axis since the outbreak of hostilities, about 1,600,000 were evacuated by the Soviet Government from Eastern Poland and subsequently occupied Soviet territory and transported far into the Russian interior and beyond the Urals. About 150,000 others managed to reach Palestine, the United States, and other countries beyond the seas.
    “We Jews,” Mr. Rosenberg said, “rightly give thanks for the innumerable resolutions of sympathy for Jews, adopted by well-meaning men and groups horrified by the hideous tragedy which has befallen our people. Russia has chosen deeds. She has given life, asylum, bread, and shelter to a vast Jewish population. These facts are not sufficiently known. To make them known to every Jew in this country is a task of supreme importance for the Jewish Council for Russian War Relief. Need I ask what would have happened to those Jews had Russia left them where they were?”
    Number of Jews in Europe in 1939 6.5 million. Minus 1.75 million saved by SU equals…6 million ‘exterminated’. It is less known that in March 1940 600,000 Polish Jews refugees to the SU were granted Soviet citizenship. I let you do the maths. I’ve done it so many times that I got tired.
    And it’s not all. For instance, out of the 3-4,ooo,ooo of Jews from Romania-Hungary ‘exterminated’… 380,000-400,000 were still in Romania at the end of the war (including the returnees from the camps in Transnistria).

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    • Replies: @utu
    Europe in 1939 6.5 million - more like 9.5. Poland and European USSR was about 5.5

    out of the 3-4,ooo,ooo of Jews from Romania-Hungary - Hungary 450k, Rumania - 750k

    It is less known that in March 1940 600,000 Polish Jews refugees to the SU were granted Soviet citizenship. - The estimate of refugees, i.e., those who left German zone to Soviet zone of occupied Poland is 200-300k. I do not know how many accepted citizenship, but those Polish citizens (including Jews) who did could avoid deportations into the SU. This was one reason why people were accepting the citizenship. Still there were some Jews deported to SU though majority of deportees were non-Jewish Poles.

    Now, the article you citing here is an interesting piece of pro Soviet Propaganda. Probably it was part of the effort to double down the pro Soviet lobbying and money collection particularly form non-communist Jews who were not in love with Stalin and who remembered that Soviets were responsible for Germany attacking Poland in the first place unlike the communist Jewish contingent in New York which until June 22, 1941 was vehemently opposing the war and was on the side of America First on orders from Moscow because of Ribbentrop-Molotov pact that Stalin respect to the dot.

    We Jews,” Mr. Rosenberg said, “rightly give thanks for the innumerable resolutions of sympathy for Jews, adopted by well-meaning men and groups horrified by the hideous tragedy which has befallen our people. Russia has chosen deeds. She has given life, asylum, bread, and shelter to a vast Jewish population. These facts are not sufficiently known. To make them known to every Jew in this country is a task of supreme importance for the Jewish Council for Russian War Relief. Need I ask what would have happened to those Jews had Russia left them where they were?”
     
    The numbers 1,750,000 or 1,600,000 may approximate Jewish population in Eastern Poland plus the 200-300k of refugees from Western Poland. However, there was no purposeful evacuation of Jews when Germany attacked in June 1941. NKVD was more concerned with killing off remaining prisoners in their facilities and evacuating themselves.
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  • @utu
    don’t expect utu to concede any points though

    Apparently you haven't read what I wrote here so far. I do not believe in the canonical Holocaust narrative that entered the popular consciousness via countless books, films and survivors' testimonies. But I do believe that many Jews died. The question is how many, how and when and where. How far down can we push the 6m number? What is the lower bound? Personally I do not believe it can be lower than 3 millions. By current standards I am a Holocaust denier, however, I am more educated than, say Wally here and thus my approach is much more judicious and nuanced, though I doubt it would be counted as a mitigating circumstance in German or Israel's court, so I could end up having a dubious pleasure of sharing the same cell with Wally.

    The question is how many, how and when and where. How far down can we push the 6m number?

    imo the most important question is Why, second most important is By Whom & under what circumstances.

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  • @L.K
    You are of course, correct, don't expect utu to concede any points though.

    It looks that I pushed some wrong buttons, so that it is not clear that the post @176 was the reply to the slightly ridiculous ‘avuncular’ rebuke of [email protected]

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  • @L.K
    It is incorrect to define holocaust revisionism as right wing scholarship;

    Holocaust Revisionists, politically, range from the extreme left to the extreme right and all in between.
    In France, for example, organized Jewry has agonized over the fact that many French revisionists have been leftists.
    One of the first influential holocaust revisionists was Paul Rassinier.

    Rassinier's background and experiences topple the widely held stereotypes of Holocaust revisionists; he was a Holocaust survivor, a member of the French Resistance, and a Socialist member of the French assembly.
    Rassinier participated in the founding of the Libre-Nord organization during the German occupation of France. This organization resisted Nazi rule by, among other things, smuggling Jewish refugees over the Franco-Swiss border into Switzerland. As a result of his activities, Rassinier was arrested by German authorities who had him deported to the concentration camp at Buchenwald. He was later moved from Buchenwald to the camp at Dora where he survived through the end of the war.
     
    As for Rudolf’s "Lectures on the Holocaust", it is certainly one of the best, if not the best, revisionist book for beginners, far more accessible to the average person than the often extremely detailed avg revisionist tome.

    It works as a dialogue, sort of like a conversation/debate, and it is easy to read.
    http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/15-loth.pdf

    The American (Jewish) libertarian Murray Rothbard was probably a Holocaust revisionist.

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  • BTW, on the complicated relationship between Zionists and the Soviets during WW2 (in particular Zionist concern with tilting the demographic balance in Palestine), see

    https://www.marxists.org/subject/jewish/soviets-israel.pdf

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  • @L.K
    You are of course, correct, don't expect utu to concede any points though.

    don’t expect utu to concede any points though

    Apparently you haven’t read what I wrote here so far. I do not believe in the canonical Holocaust narrative that entered the popular consciousness via countless books, films and survivors’ testimonies. But I do believe that many Jews died. The question is how many, how and when and where. How far down can we push the 6m number? What is the lower bound? Personally I do not believe it can be lower than 3 millions. By current standards I am a Holocaust denier, however, I am more educated than, say Wally here and thus my approach is much more judicious and nuanced, though I doubt it would be counted as a mitigating circumstance in German or Israel’s court, so I could end up having a dubious pleasure of sharing the same cell with Wally.

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    The question is how many, how and when and where. How far down can we push the 6m number?
     
    imo the most important question is Why, second most important is By Whom & under what circumstances.
    , @JackOH
    utu, years ago I did a rough guesstimate of how many European Jews died during the 1939-1945 period as a result of the war. My guesstimate was 2 million, many of whom would be Jewish combatants in Allied forces, Jewish shopkeepers who took an artillery shell, and, of course, those who died at Auschwitz and other camps. But, you're right, of course, that the established Holocaust narrative is likely more "brittle", or "deoxygenated", than most of us would like to think.
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  • My friend,

    I appreciate your delicateness in using circumlocutions to avoid accusing me directly of lying. I am sorry if I have disappointed you (you are under no obligation to believe me), but I can live with it. I have disappointed scores of people in a life longer than you expect, and I am still alive.
    I suffer from the silly coquetry of trying to look younger than I really am, so I would not disclose my age, but ‘my dancing’ was the response to your specific question which was ‘What is the time frame for your story/confabulation’.
    In Eastern Europe people were much more aware than in the West that the stories of ‘extermination’ of Jews were Soviet war propaganda.

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  • It is incorrect to define holocaust revisionism as right wing scholarship;

    Holocaust Revisionists, politically, range from the extreme left to the extreme right and all in between.
    In France, for example, organized Jewry has agonized over the fact that many French revisionists have been leftists.
    One of the first influential holocaust revisionists was Paul Rassinier.

    Rassinier’s background and experiences topple the widely held stereotypes of Holocaust revisionists; he was a Holocaust survivor, a member of the French Resistance, and a Socialist member of the French assembly.
    Rassinier participated in the founding of the Libre-Nord organization during the German occupation of France. This organization resisted Nazi rule by, among other things, smuggling Jewish refugees over the Franco-Swiss border into Switzerland. As a result of his activities, Rassinier was arrested by German authorities who had him deported to the concentration camp at Buchenwald. He was later moved from Buchenwald to the camp at Dora where he survived through the end of the war.

    As for Rudolf’s “Lectures on the Holocaust”, it is certainly one of the best, if not the best, revisionist book for beginners, far more accessible to the average person than the often extremely detailed avg revisionist tome.

    It works as a dialogue, sort of like a conversation/debate, and it is easy to read.

    http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/15-loth.pdf

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    • Agree: SolontoCroesus
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    The American (Jewish) libertarian Murray Rothbard was probably a Holocaust revisionist.
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  • Not well known mind blowing story. I learned about it just few months ago. Former women prisoners of Ravensbrück KL helped escape the SS-women Johanna Langefeld (in charge of Auschwitz women camp) from prison in Poland in 1946 (she was handed over by Americans to Poland) and sheltered her for 10 years in convents and private families until she could get back illegally to Germany in 1957. It took incredible courage to save Johanna Langefeld life who probably would be executed otherwise and it is amazing that it was successful. This happened during the most intense police terror in the post war Poland where Stalinist authorities were consolidating their power and when the anti-German propaganda was at its peak. To get the idea of the background against which these women operated one can see the film (it was on YT until several days ago) about revenge on Germans in the post WWII Czechoslovakia in the BBC documentary The Savage Peace:

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5267658/

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/tv-and-radio-reviews/11624618/1945-The-Savage-Peace-review.html

    Somebody in Germany tried to make a movie about Johanna Langefeld and her rescue. Here are previews:

    https://vimeo.com/101908113

    but it seems that the project was not completed at least I could not find more about it. I am not sure why this story would be inconvenient to Germans or Poles but certainly it is inconvenient to the general narrative in which 90 plus year old men with dementia are being dragged to courts for serving as a guard or an accountant in Auschwitz. BTW, Johanna Langefeld worked in Auschwitz and ran into some conflict with Rudolf Höß which she won because Heinrich Himmler sided with her:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johanna_Langefeld
    Rudolf Höß, the Commandant of the Auschwitz concentration camp, recalled his relationship towards Johanna Langefeld as follows:

    The chief female supervisor of the period, Frau Langefeld, was in no way capable of coping with the situation, yet she refused to accept any instructions given her by the leader of the protective custody camp. Acting on my own initiative, I simply put the women’s camp under his jurisdiction.

    During the visit of Heinrich Himmler on 18 July 1942, Langefeld tried to get him to annul this order. In fact, Rudolf Höß admitted after the war that “the Reichsführer SS absolutely refused” his order and that he wished “a women’s camp to be commanded by a woman”. Himmler ordered that Langefeld should stay in charge of the women’s camp and that in the future, no SS man should enter the female camp.

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  • @Seraphim
    "Je vous parle d'un temps,/Que les moins de vingt ans,/Ne peuvent pas connaître," (Charles Aznavour, 'La Bohème'- 1965).
    The time frame is the one between the Trial of Eichmann (1962), which "helped raise public awareness of the Holocaust" (along with Elie Wiesel's fake memories - 1962 and Hannah Arendt's pseudo-objective 'Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil - 1963) and the "explosive input that propelled Holocaust historiography into becoming the field of Holocaust studies and catapulted the latter to the center of theoretical-epistemological debates in the 1980s and 1990s [which] was not a scholarly debate, but a cultural event, namely, the broadcasting of the NBC television show 'Holocaust' (1978) around the world"* - ("There's no business like Shoah-business") along with renewed demands for compensations by descendants of 'Holocaust survivors'.

    *'Probing the Ethics of Holocaust Culture', edited by Claudio Fogu, Wulf Kansteiner, Todd Presner, 2016, p.7.

    You are of course, correct, don’t expect utu to concede any points though.

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    • Replies: @utu
    don’t expect utu to concede any points though

    Apparently you haven't read what I wrote here so far. I do not believe in the canonical Holocaust narrative that entered the popular consciousness via countless books, films and survivors' testimonies. But I do believe that many Jews died. The question is how many, how and when and where. How far down can we push the 6m number? What is the lower bound? Personally I do not believe it can be lower than 3 millions. By current standards I am a Holocaust denier, however, I am more educated than, say Wally here and thus my approach is much more judicious and nuanced, though I doubt it would be counted as a mitigating circumstance in German or Israel's court, so I could end up having a dubious pleasure of sharing the same cell with Wally.
    , @Seraphim
    It looks that I pushed some wrong buttons, so that it is not clear that the post @176 was the reply to the slightly ridiculous 'avuncular' rebuke of [email protected]
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  • @Seraphim
    "Je vous parle d'un temps,/Que les moins de vingt ans,/Ne peuvent pas connaître," (Charles Aznavour, 'La Bohème'- 1965).
    The time frame is the one between the Trial of Eichmann (1962), which "helped raise public awareness of the Holocaust" (along with Elie Wiesel's fake memories - 1962 and Hannah Arendt's pseudo-objective 'Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil - 1963) and the "explosive input that propelled Holocaust historiography into becoming the field of Holocaust studies and catapulted the latter to the center of theoretical-epistemological debates in the 1980s and 1990s [which] was not a scholarly debate, but a cultural event, namely, the broadcasting of the NBC television show 'Holocaust' (1978) around the world"* - ("There's no business like Shoah-business") along with renewed demands for compensations by descendants of 'Holocaust survivors'.

    *'Probing the Ethics of Holocaust Culture', edited by Claudio Fogu, Wulf Kansteiner, Todd Presner, 2016, p.7.

    From 1962 & 1963 to 1980 & 1990s is a pretty wide frame to locate your actual memory of your mother’s friend and her husband Tibi. Eichmann trial and Arendt book brought very negative aspects such as Judenrats, Jewish Police and others Jews like Kastner or Rumkowski cooperation with Germans which may not have been commonly known in Eastern Europe including Transylvania but the general story of extermination was told there from the very beginning w/o help of Arendt and Wiesel. The issues were dealt in literature and cinematography in 1950′s in Eastern Europe and Russia, so to many people from there Arendt or Wiesel were not news and the intensified American interest in 1970s and 1980s was rather puzzling.

    I will make a supposition that the way you are dancing around my specific question about Tibi indicates that my initial hunch you were confabulating was correct. Very disappointing in light that you are a person who writes about Christianity and other lofty ideas.

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  • @Svigor

    You have probably watched too many courtroom dramas and think they represent reality where the truth is being established and that OJ is innocent. Very typical for some childlike Americans. But here it is the case bad faith.
     
    Well, you're clearly an asshole, if your comments are any guide. But that is neither here nor there; your logic is sloppy as Hell. Your point seems to be that one bad result, via jury nullification, indicts good legal practice as a whole, which it doesn't. It also seems to imply that if one legal practice is bad, they must all be bad, which is also nonsense. E.g., refusing to indict someone for murder without proof of death is good practice.

    Protip: your logic is scheisse. Up your game.

    I made a mistake thinking that your case is that of bad faith. You are indeed a fool.

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  • @utu
    I remember that when ‘Holocaust’ histories started to sprout (long after the event) she and other friends were saying bemused and chuckling (it was still permitted): ‘Do you want to know how it was at Auschwitz? Just ask Tibi’.

    The "‘Holocaust’ histories" were in public domain from the very beginning in media, film and literature. What is the time frame for your story/confabulation? How old were you?

    “Je vous parle d’un temps,/Que les moins de vingt ans,/Ne peuvent pas connaître,” (Charles Aznavour, ‘La Bohème’- 1965).
    The time frame is the one between the Trial of Eichmann (1962), which “helped raise public awareness of the Holocaust” (along with Elie Wiesel’s fake memories – 1962 and Hannah Arendt’s pseudo-objective ‘Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil – 1963) and the “explosive input that propelled Holocaust historiography into becoming the field of Holocaust studies and catapulted the latter to the center of theoretical-epistemological debates in the 1980s and 1990s [which] was not a scholarly debate, but a cultural event, namely, the broadcasting of the NBC television show ‘Holocaust’ (1978) around the world”* – (“There’s no business like Shoah-business”) along with renewed demands for compensations by descendants of ‘Holocaust survivors’.

    *’Probing the Ethics of Holocaust Culture’, edited by Claudio Fogu, Wulf Kansteiner, Todd Presner, 2016, p.7.

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    • Replies: @utu
    From 1962 & 1963 to 1980 & 1990s is a pretty wide frame to locate your actual memory of your mother's friend and her husband Tibi. Eichmann trial and Arendt book brought very negative aspects such as Judenrats, Jewish Police and others Jews like Kastner or Rumkowski cooperation with Germans which may not have been commonly known in Eastern Europe including Transylvania but the general story of extermination was told there from the very beginning w/o help of Arendt and Wiesel. The issues were dealt in literature and cinematography in 1950's in Eastern Europe and Russia, so to many people from there Arendt or Wiesel were not news and the intensified American interest in 1970s and 1980s was rather puzzling.

    I will make a supposition that the way you are dancing around my specific question about Tibi indicates that my initial hunch you were confabulating was correct. Very disappointing in light that you are a person who writes about Christianity and other lofty ideas.

    , @L.K
    You are of course, correct, don't expect utu to concede any points though.
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  • @Wally
    Ah yes, projection.

    IOW, you're admitting you cannot debate me.

    I noticed you dodged what I posted. I win.

    I notice you're afraid to debate at:

    http://forum.codoh.com

    Of course, there's no name calling allowed. So that leaves you out. LOL

    I repeat, you said:

    "Jews were executed en masse in Ukraine and Belarus and Baltic States. How many got killed in this way? We can’t believe the official numbers.”

    No they were not. There is no proof.

    The Industry now claims that ca. 2,000,000 Jews were shot by the Einsatzgruppen into huge pits, so, anyone, please show us the actual excavations, the enormous mass graves, & remains that are claimed to exist, their locations are allegedly known.
    Is that:
    100 graves of 20,000?
    200 graves of 10,000?
    400 graves of 5,000?
    500 graves of 4,000?
    1000 graves of 2000?
    2000 graves of 1000?

    Think you know better? Then bring it where we can chat better. Don’t be afraid. All Revisionists used to be believers.

    “Brought to you by Carl’s Jr.”

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  • there’s a certain logic to feeding civilians rather than uniformed combatants, in a situation when both cannot be accommodated.
    Granted, POWs are supposed to be treated better than uniformed combatants, but Stalin had not signed Geneva Conventions, so Germany was not bound to abide by Geneva in treatment of USSR POWs.

    IIRC, Stalin kinda made a point of refusing to come to an agreement with Hitler over the treatment of POWs.

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  • If you ship, DOCUMENTED, over a million people some place and end up with 200,000 living, then they must have been all UFO abducted…seems perfectly reasonable…

    Well, there’s documentation, and then there’s forensic evidence. The latter carries a Hell of a lot more weight in a court of law; a corpse beats a death certificate 7 days a week, and twice on Sunday.

    “Your honor, neither the victim, nor his remains, nor proof of death, can be found. Please find the defendant guilty. I rest my case!” This isn’t a recipe for success.

    The fact is, there should be physical evidence for 12m deaths, but not only has none been provided, but AFAICT, none has even been sought. This smells of rat to me.

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  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    Some links to the JTA claims about Soviet evacuation of Jews can be found here:

    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=11353&p=85500#p85500

    Thanks.

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  • You have probably watched too many courtroom dramas and think they represent reality where the truth is being established and that OJ is innocent. Very typical for some childlike Americans. But here it is the case bad faith.

    Well, you’re clearly an asshole, if your comments are any guide. But that is neither here nor there; your logic is sloppy as Hell. Your point seems to be that one bad result, via jury nullification, indicts good legal practice as a whole, which it doesn’t. It also seems to imply that if one legal practice is bad, they must all be bad, which is also nonsense. E.g., refusing to indict someone for murder without proof of death is good practice.

    Protip: your logic is scheisse. Up your game.

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    • Replies: @utu
    I made a mistake thinking that your case is that of bad faith. You are indeed a fool.
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  • @Seraphim
    All these questions have been addressed on this blog so many times, that it would be a waste of time to repeat all the data regarding the fate of the 2 mil Jews refugees who have been evacuated beyond the Urals at the very beginning of the war and who returned to their places at the end.
    Just a personal memory. It happened that I met in the flesh a few Hungarian Jews from Transylvania who have been deported to Auschwitz and who returned to their homes after the war. One of them was the husband of a friend of my mother. I remember that when 'Holocaust' histories started to sprout (long after the event) she and other friends were saying bemused and chuckling (it was still permitted): 'Do you want to know how it was at Auschwitz? Just ask Tibi'.

    I remember that when ‘Holocaust’ histories started to sprout (long after the event) she and other friends were saying bemused and chuckling (it was still permitted): ‘Do you want to know how it was at Auschwitz? Just ask Tibi’.

    The “‘Holocaust’ histories” were in public domain from the very beginning in media, film and literature. What is the time frame for your story/confabulation? How old were you?

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    "Je vous parle d'un temps,/Que les moins de vingt ans,/Ne peuvent pas connaître," (Charles Aznavour, 'La Bohème'- 1965).
    The time frame is the one between the Trial of Eichmann (1962), which "helped raise public awareness of the Holocaust" (along with Elie Wiesel's fake memories - 1962 and Hannah Arendt's pseudo-objective 'Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil - 1963) and the "explosive input that propelled Holocaust historiography into becoming the field of Holocaust studies and catapulted the latter to the center of theoretical-epistemological debates in the 1980s and 1990s [which] was not a scholarly debate, but a cultural event, namely, the broadcasting of the NBC television show 'Holocaust' (1978) around the world"* - ("There's no business like Shoah-business") along with renewed demands for compensations by descendants of 'Holocaust survivors'.

    *'Probing the Ethics of Holocaust Culture', edited by Claudio Fogu, Wulf Kansteiner, Todd Presner, 2016, p.7.

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  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    Good comment. The question of the Hungarian Jews sent to Auschwitz is akin to the question of the Jews sent to the AR camps: there is not a definitive or conclusive revisionist answer to what happened to them, but it is highly doubtful they were killed at these camps as claimed. (BTW, didn’t Eichmann claim at his trial that a captured Soviet submarine engine (!) was used for gassings at Treblinka?) I believe you are heading in the right direction by suggesting some degree of Nazi-Soviet collaboration, curious though it may seem.

    All these questions have been addressed on this blog so many times, that it would be a waste of time to repeat all the data regarding the fate of the 2 mil Jews refugees who have been evacuated beyond the Urals at the very beginning of the war and who returned to their places at the end.
    Just a personal memory. It happened that I met in the flesh a few Hungarian Jews from Transylvania who have been deported to Auschwitz and who returned to their homes after the war. One of them was the husband of a friend of my mother. I remember that when ‘Holocaust’ histories started to sprout (long after the event) she and other friends were saying bemused and chuckling (it was still permitted): ‘Do you want to know how it was at Auschwitz? Just ask Tibi’.

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    • Replies: @utu
    I remember that when ‘Holocaust’ histories started to sprout (long after the event) she and other friends were saying bemused and chuckling (it was still permitted): ‘Do you want to know how it was at Auschwitz? Just ask Tibi’.

    The "‘Holocaust’ histories" were in public domain from the very beginning in media, film and literature. What is the time frame for your story/confabulation? How old were you?
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  • anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Tbbh
    They left them in barbed wire corrals with no food or shelter but they built camps to keep their despised jews in good health...I call bullshit.

    there’s a certain logic to feeding civilians rather than uniformed combatants, in a situation when both cannot be accommodated.
    Granted, POWs are supposed to be treated better than uniformed combatants, but Stalin had not signed Geneva Conventions, so Germany was not bound to abide by Geneva in treatment of USSR POWs.

    https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/States.xsp?xp_viewStates=XPages_NORMStatesParties&xp_treatySelected=305

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  • @utu
    I am not sure about Mossad but clearly Wally is useless and possible harmful to the cause of historical revisionism. I would have him removed long time ago. How come Rehmat was removed (I presume) and Wally is still here? Rehmat comments covered large body of knowledge and often were a propos while Wally is automaton. A bot could do a better job than him.

    Like the typical Zionist fraud, you dodge all the points I made. Telling.

    “Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish “holocaust” and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the “survivors”? Because it “dishonors the dead”? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble.”
    - Gerard Menuhin / Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist

    BTW, thanks for opportunity to post more here. LOL

    It’s panic time in Tel Aviv.

    http://www.codoh.com

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  • @anonymous
    Wally's Mossad (even Mossad has 49% below average, and they have to do something with 'em).

    he sure as hell is not doing any good for authentic revisionists.

    Yep, that’s what lying Hasbarists always say when the try their old ‘divide & conquer’ routine.
    We’re onto you.

    Israeli / Zionist / supremacist Jew power is enabled by the fraudulent & laughable story line of ’6,000,000 Jews, 5,000,000 others & gas chambers’.

    The ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are laughable, scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:

    http://codoh.com

    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    http://forum.codoh.com

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  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    The Germans didn’t care about Katyn in 1941 because they were winning the war, as that changed it became in their interest to broadcast Soviet crimes, esp. as they concerned an ostensible Westen ally.

    The Eichmann-Soviet link is indeed speculative (and FWIW I have no particular sympathy for the Germans). However the claims of mass killings at these camps are even more unbelievable, so upon eliminating (so to speak) the unlikely, etc. etc.

    If you ship, DOCUMENTED, over a million people some place and end up with 200,000 living, then they must have been all UFO abducted…seems perfectly reasonable…

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  • @Greg Bacon
    Antifa, the thuggish group making headlines with their brazen, sadistic attacks on those bold enough to wear a "MAGA" hat or dare to use their Free Speech rights, have been given a free pass by the largely Jewish owned MSM. Many of the Antifa leaders are Jews.

    Jews are also the ones that never tire of reminding us GOYIM that only Jews suffered and died in WW II, turning their holocaust into a state-sanctioned religion that demands worship of dogma that can not be questioned. Dare to write a historical book about WW II and it will never see the light of day, forever damned to the Memory Hole, while the number of holocaust museums and shrines in the USA grows to 150, with most of them needing our tax money to exist.

    http://forward.com/news/121688/local-holocaust-museums-grow-amid-worries-about-fu/

    So how is it that a segment of American society that numbers around 2% can wield so much influence over the other 98%?

    Because far too much of that 98% is either ignorant, misinformed, or masochistic.

    How do you explain the braindead white liberal ethnomasochist?

    No good answer beyond that.

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  • @RobinG
    Just curious, what do you think of Horowitz now? The conservative convert ultra Israel supporter.

    Loathed and detested him then, loathe and detest him now. He, his parents and grandparents were communist activists and spies.

    When the black activists kicked out their Jew commie leadership, Horowitz applied to be an agent for the government of Israel.

    His Discover The Networks is an excellent source. But he is still the horrible. If CAIR offered him more money I’m sure he would become an anti Israel agitator.

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  • @Tbbh
    Quoting myself:

    Holocaust deniers deny that Germans found efficient ways to kill jews, but have zero problem with the 3-3.5 million soviet POWs dying of exposure, malnutrition, and disease. So the jews were treated BETTER than soviets? I would rather be gassed immediately than starved.

    ***Is the argument “the nazis cared more for jews than soviet POWs?”*** I call bullshit on that.

    It is really irrelevant whether the Germans liked Soviet POWs less than Jews (and even less what your preferred method of death would be). The claim isn’t that the Germans failed to “find” efficient means of killing, it’s that the officially accepted claims are absurd for a number of reasons (part of which concerns the inefficiency of pesticides or diesel exhaust for the task of killing millions).

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  • @utu
    (1) non-Jewish Poles killing Jews — and vice versa - Rounding error effect. 3 orders of magnitude too low to affect the balance.

    (2) Tim Snyder holds that position — “the Germans done it.” - No, he talks about various pogroms and the role of Ukrainian and Baltic States auxiliaries but as far as Holocaust it wa sGerman project, planning and execution. What would you expect? He also talks of killings by Soviets and about the non-Jewish victims like Poles massacred by Ukrainians in Volhynia.

    (3) 1.75 million Polish Jews fled to Russia, and also that 300,000 Polish Jews crossed from the German sector to Soviet occupied Poland. - I do not know the exact numbers but keep in mind that Soviets occupied part of Poland that had very high density of Jewish population. When this part was overrun by Germans in June 1941 there was no large scale evacuation of Jews into Russia. Many ghettos were established there later. Though there were mass deportations by Soviets earlier but they chiefly affected Polish not Jewish population which to large extent collaborated with Soviets. Germans conducted quite a few exhumations of mass graves left by Soviets. Some photographs from these events were mistakingly placed in the exhibition Wehrmachtsausstellung (in 1990s) allegedly showing German officers doing executions but upon the discovery by Polish and Hungarian historians the exhibition had to be halted and revamped. Obviously it was whitewashed. It was a part of Goldhagen offensive in Germany.

    (4) When Allies liberated camps in April – May 1945, they found 700,000 persons (alive), 100,000 of them Jews. - Again I do not know numbers but what of it. Is it too many or too little for you. If the US was defeated tomorrow they would find close to 3 millions of people in jails and prisons. And if the defeating took some time many of them would be starving and sick. BTW, in 1939 Germany had incarceration rate (prisons and concentration camps) about 4 time lower than the US in 2016. If you exclude African -Americans that rate in the US would be still 2 times higher than in the Nazi Germany 1939.

    (5) Vrba - escaped at least one month before first transports of Hungarian Jews. Like many professional witness/holocaust survivors he is not very reliable. Supposedly he was compromised during Zundel trial but I do not know details.

    (6) I’ve not read all of Hannah Arendt - certainly this was a very important book. It was not published in Israel for years. At that time the Holocauts narrative was not yet firmly defined. Her revelations (it was all in New Yorker) about despicable behavior of Jews in Ghettos and that of Judenrats were shocking, however she lifted it all from Raul Hilberg's manuscript of yet unpublished The Destruction of the European Jews w/o acknowledgement. He was pissed. On the other hand Eichmann is not shocking in her book. You know, the banality of evil. Nothing interesting there folks. But she talked about all what we know now about what was going on in Hungary but it was mainly from Hilberg. Did she hold the punches? We do not know. I suspect that some decisions were made about historical policy and narrative after the trial and the second rate hacks started producing Holocaust stories and films. This was further intensified after 1967 war when Jews got great boost of PR and the resulting confidence.

    (7) Eichmann - Certainly he held secrets that Zionists would not like to be revealed. The dealing between Nazis and Zionists were going way back (Transfer Agreement). Then there was Kastner train and the deal about military trucks that did fell through. Who knows what else was there? Was he drugged? Hard to say. We do not know how people behave in such situations. Case of Cardinal Mindszenty started Manchurian candidate ideas in the US and CIA. Clearly Israel wanted to have the PR effects rather than just having the inconvenient partner/witnesses killed that they could have done very easily. So perhaps he was not as inconvenient as one may think so they took a risk and kept him alive.

    (8) Eichmann-Birobidzhan-Hungarian Jews - I say, nonsense.

    (9) Prof Ruth Linn in the link you gave: "She stumbled upon the story in 1987," "Linn was shocked: Here she was, a highly educated Israeli scientist, and she had never heard about this important aspect of the Holocaust." - there is nothing new what she wrote. All can be found in Arendt and Hilberg books that however were suppressed in Israel. There was a play about it in 1960s in Europe but it was fought by Jews and eventually forgotten. I am just shocked they have so ignorant professors in Israel. This is a good lesson however, because a lot can be explained by pure stupidity and ignorance and obviously by years of the narrative control. Not always the lies that are repeated over and over again have to be attributed to bad will. After all Linn tries to rectify it.

    (10) cockamamie tales and “scholarly analysis” spun by holocaust “scholars.” - There is a lot of nonsense. Careers can be made on Holocaust. Hoax memoirs are written. Fake survivors go on lecturing tours. Shabby dissertations, and books, schlocky and schmaltzy movies year after year. And most importantly this is a matter of very serious Jewish and Israel historical policy so there are big budgets to be spent. Most of it should be ignored. Still these nonsense is not a proof that nothing happened. Just like fake cancer patients that seek compassion and money are not the proof that cancer does not exist.

    Some links to the JTA claims about Soviet evacuation of Jews can be found here:

    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=11353&p=85500#p85500

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    • Replies: @utu
    Thanks.
    , @Seraphim
    It is worth knowing what the links cited by Beefcake said.
    Here are the direct words of James N. Rosenberg made in 1943, direct from the horse's mouth!
    JTA of Jul. 1, 1943:

    "Russia Helped 1,750,000 Jews to Escape Nazis, Says James N. Rosenberg":

    “Russia has saved over ten times as many Jews from Nazi extermination as all the rest of the world put together,” James N. Rosenberg, American Jewish leader, declared here today in an address of welcome which he delivered at a reception given at the Astor Hotel to Solomon Mikhoels and Itzik Feffer, the Jewish cultural delegation from Russia. The reception was attended by several hundred representatives of various Jewish organizations.
    Emphasizing that he based his estimate of those saved on facts gathered by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Mr. Rosenberg quoted the organization’s journal as reporting that “of some 1,750,000 Jews who succeeded in escaping the Axis since the outbreak of hostilities, about 1,600,000 were evacuated by the Soviet Government from Eastern Poland and subsequently occupied Soviet territory and transported far into the Russian interior and beyond the Urals. About 150,000 others managed to reach Palestine, the United States, and other countries beyond the seas.
    “We Jews,” Mr. Rosenberg said, “rightly give thanks for the innumerable resolutions of sympathy for Jews, adopted by well-meaning men and groups horrified by the hideous tragedy which has befallen our people. Russia has chosen deeds. She has given life, asylum, bread, and shelter to a vast Jewish population. These facts are not sufficiently known. To make them known to every Jew in this country is a task of supreme importance for the Jewish Council for Russian War Relief. Need I ask what would have happened to those Jews had Russia left them where they were?”
    Number of Jews in Europe in 1939 6.5 million. Minus 1.75 million saved by SU equals...6 million 'exterminated'. It is less known that in March 1940 600,000 Polish Jews refugees to the SU were granted Soviet citizenship. I let you do the maths. I've done it so many times that I got tired.
    And it's not all. For instance, out of the 3-4,ooo,ooo of Jews from Romania-Hungary 'exterminated'... 380,000-400,000 were still in Romania at the end of the war (including the returnees from the camps in Transnistria).
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  • @Svigor

    I believe in science over religion. Simple. And you?
     
    Very much so. But a big part of science is not being certain, when you don't have good reason to be.

    I'm fairly certain that orthodox historians have not provided forensic evidence of 12m (6m Jewish) corpses as a result of the shoah. That is the starting point of my holocaust heterodoxy. But I phrase it as a question: "where is the forensic evidence? If it exists, present it." Same goes for gas chambers, etc. This is a scientifically rigorous approach, because it is impossible to prove a negative. One may assert that there is no Santa Claus, but one cannot prove it. The burden of proof is on the person asserting there is a Santa Claus, for precisely this reason.

    You can’t prove a negative. The positive assertion is that Santa Claus existed. Santa Claus is no other than:
    “Saint Nicholas (Greek: Ἅγιος Νικόλαος, Hágios Nikólaos, Latin: Sanctus Nicolaus); (15 March 270 – 6 December 343) also called Nikolaos of Myra, a historic 4th-century Christian saint and Greek[5] Bishop of Myra, in Asia Minor (modern-day Demre, Turkey). Because of the many miracles attributed to his intercession, he is also known as Nikolaos the Wonderworker (Νικόλαος ὁ Θαυματουργός, Nikólaos ho Thaumaturgós). His reputation evolved among the faithful, as was common for early Christian saints, and his legendary habit of secret gift-giving gave rise to the traditional model of Santa Claus through Sinterklaas.
    The historical Saint Nicholas is commemorated and revered among far more Christian sects than just Orthodox Christians. The Anglican, Lutheran, and Catholic Churches revere him. In addition, some Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, and other Reformed churches have been named in honor of Saint Nicholas. Saint Nicholas is the patron saint of sailors, merchants, archers, repentant thieves, children, brewers, pawnbrokers and students in various cities and countries around Europe.
    His earthly remains are kept in a crypt in Bari. In the summer of 2005, the report of measurements of the bones was sent to a forensic laboratory in England. The review of the data revealed that the historical Saint Nicholas was 5’6″ in height and had a broken nose. The facial reconstruction was produced by Dr. Caroline Wilkinson at the University of Manchester and was shown on a BBC2 TV program The Real Face of Santa and it matches the traditional icon.
    It is said that in Myra the relics of Saint Nicholas each year exuded a clear watery liquid which smells like rose water, called manna (or myrrh), which is believed by the faithful to possess miraculous powers. After the relics were brought to Bari, they continued to do so, much to the joy of the new owners. Vials of myrrh from his relics have been taken all over the world for centuries, and can still be obtained from his church in Bari. Even up to the present day, a flask of manna is extracted from the tomb of Saint Nicholas every year on 6 December (the Saint’s feast day) by the clergy of the basilica. The myrrh is collected from a sarcophagus which is located in the basilica vault and could be obtained in the shop nearby…”

    So, it is proven beyond reasonable doubt.

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  • @anonymous
    it's my understanding the Soviet POWs starved because there was no food available, & the numbers of surrendering Soviet troops was so large they could not be accommodated.

    They left them in barbed wire corrals with no food or shelter but they built camps to keep their despised jews in good health…I call bullshit.

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    • Replies: @anon
    there's a certain logic to feeding civilians rather than uniformed combatants, in a situation when both cannot be accommodated.
    Granted, POWs are supposed to be treated better than uniformed combatants, but Stalin had not signed Geneva Conventions, so Germany was not bound to abide by Geneva in treatment of USSR POWs.
    https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/States.xsp?xp_viewStates=XPages_NORMStatesParties&xp_treatySelected=305
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  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    Sorry, what question?

    Quoting myself:

    Holocaust deniers deny that Germans found efficient ways to kill jews, but have zero problem with the 3-3.5 million soviet POWs dying of exposure, malnutrition, and disease. So the jews were treated BETTER than soviets? I would rather be gassed immediately than starved.

    ***Is the argument “the nazis cared more for jews than soviet POWs?”*** I call bullshit on that.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    It is really irrelevant whether the Germans liked Soviet POWs less than Jews (and even less what your preferred method of death would be). The claim isn’t that the Germans failed to “find” efficient means of killing, it’s that the officially accepted claims are absurd for a number of reasons (part of which concerns the inefficiency of pesticides or diesel exhaust for the task of killing millions).
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  • @Svigor
    I think Wally could sell holocaust heterodoxy better. A couple of suggestions:

    When you drop in that boilerplate comment with links, drop in a different heterodox tidbit every time. Or at least have enough of them on hand to drop in with the boilerplate that it looks like you have a different one every time. Put the boilerplate and a few dozen tidbits into a text file and rotate the tidbit every time. It would be like a fortune cookie, and generate a bit of interest, instead of prompting readers to just scroll past. Tidbits would obviously be some pithy, thought-provoking thought or fact that encourages heterodox thinking.

    Your tone's a bit off. Instead of aggressively announcing that the holocaust is a fraud - trying to force a horse to drink - try leading him to water. Show, don't tell, to put it another way. People like to do the last bit of math themselves, and letting them do so tends to make things much more persuasive, IMO. Sometimes a more disinterested tone is more persuasive. E.g., I find my own position more thought-provoking than outright holocaust denial; in a nutshell, it's "I'm agnostic about the holocaust, but damn if the orthodox narrative doesn't stink up the place; did you know that xxx, yyy, zzz? Makes you think, doesn't it?" I think it works because it keeps it light, and doesn't force the reader to choose a position or join a camp. It encourages him to think of holocaust history the same way he thinks of history in general, which is an eminently fair position. For the record, I really am agnostic about the holocaust - it's not a pose. I don't see how people can be so certain about most of what they're seemingly so certain about, and that cuts in both directions.

    The period from 1918 onwards seems to be key to understanding later events. But that is now out of bounds too.

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  • @SolontoCroesus
    You appear to be quite knowledgeable on this area of holocaust, but have you incorporated the many instances of non-Jewish Poles killing Jews -- and vice versa -- in Poland? Both groups are working hard to smooth over those events, and the easiest way for both Poles and Jews to emerge spotless from the embroglio is to blame it on the Germans. For some reason, the Soviets are held blameless in deaths of Poles and Polish Jews. Tim Snyder holds that position -- "the Germans done it."

    As well, Jewish Telegraph Agency & others report that as many as 1.75 million Polish Jews fled to Russia, and also that 300,000 Polish Jews crossed from the German sector to Soviet occupied Poland. Thus, Germans would have had 'access' to max. 1 million Jews in Poland.

    When Allies liberated camps in April - May 1945, they found 700,000 persons (alive), 100,000 of them Jews. Where were they from? Who knows. Where were the other 600,000 from? Who knows. I've often wondered if some of the camp internees were Germans who had been "de-housed" -- 7 million Germans were rendered homeless by bombing campaign, that deliberately sought to destroy civilian residence.

    Add to that the name changes mentioned above, as well as the known propensity for Poles -- Jewish and non-Jews -- to fabulize, like the lady who pooped diamonds, and the claims for total obliteration, by Germans, of Polish Jews becomes less and less credible.

    Having seen Timothy Snyder address Ukrainian Christians and strongly caution them against raising the matter of Holodomor as "disrespectful of Jews," I have a hard time granting him much respect/credibility: he gets published because he satisfies Jewish requirements; if he didn't, he wouldn't get published.

    The matter of the Hungarian Jews remains one of zionist Jewry's most closely guarded secrets: that's why Eichmann had to be found and killed: he knew too much: he knew which zionist leaders sold out which Hungarians and saved which Hungarians; who got the money, who got rescued, and why Hungarian Jews were transported in the first place.
    CODOH apparently has some things to say about Vrba & Wetzler that the customary narrative rejects
    http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2014/08/re-was-rudolf-vrba-registered-at.html
    On the other hand, Prof Ruth Linn says that Israelis are not told the whole story about Vrba and Wetzler because zionist leaders are intent on covering up their complicity in something very big
    http://arlindo-correia.com/020605.html

    (nb. I've not read all of Hannah Arendt, but I don't consider her the last word on Eichmann; neither do many Jewish people, but for opposite reasons. She had access, and an assignment, but I think she pulled her punches. It's also not unlikely that Eichmann was heavily drugged or otherwise mind-bent to tell a story that would satisfy Ben Gurion and his audience. Does the dopey face he presents on the usual photo of him look like someone who was conniving enough to do deals with Nazis, with zionists, with Hungarians, and then to escape and live for nearly 20 years? Or does he look like a doped dupe?

    I've just discovered what you & many others may have known about all along: Stalin set aside -- and even financed -- Biro Bidjan, in Eastern Russia. Jewish agencies in charge of settlements there were incompetent; Jews who migrated there complained that the work was too hard, the accommodations were inadequate; men failed and turned once again to trading rags, women turned to prostitution; many returned from Biro Bidjan to their former homes. Jewish agencies determined that they needed to settle 900,000 Jews in Biro Bidjan, but getting Jews to go there and stay there was painful.

    I haven't worked out a chronology or found evidence to back up my speculation, but I wonder if Eichmann's job was to round up Hungarian Jews and transport them East to Biro Bidjan? And that by that time the bombing campaign was so intense that transport was impossible. So what happened to 400,000 Hungarian Jews? Hard to say.

    But the greatest body of evidence against credibility of the holocaust narrative is the cockamamie tales and "scholarly analysis" spun by holocaust "scholars." Their sins of omission are big enough to float an aircraft carrier through, and their attempts to "get into the mind of Hitler" reflect a kind of demonic projection. I'm working on a series of lectures by David Engel that make me alternately howl with laughter and howl with pain and outrage. When such outrageous -- and self-contradictory tales are told, in oh-so-serious and faux-cultured tones; and key 'facts' are so easily debunked, it reduces the credibility of the 'scholar' to zero.

    Why do they feel they have to lie, and lie so painfully obviously? When I hear people like Engel speak, I think of baboons in tutus, with their asses hanging out. They think they're divas. and that people are adoring them, but their audience -- if they have a shred of very basic common sense -- is silently thinking, , O my F ing god this man is insane, why do we let him teach our children?

    (1) non-Jewish Poles killing Jews — and vice versa – Rounding error effect. 3 orders of magnitude too low to affect the balance.

    (2) Tim Snyder holds that position — “the Germans done it.” – No, he talks about various pogroms and the role of Ukrainian and Baltic States auxiliaries but as far as Holocaust it wa sGerman project, planning and execution. What would you expect? He also talks of killings by Soviets and about the non-Jewish victims like Poles massacred by Ukrainians in Volhynia.

    (3) 1.75 million Polish Jews fled to Russia, and also that 300,000 Polish Jews crossed from the German sector to Soviet occupied Poland. – I do not know the exact numbers but keep in mind that Soviets occupied part of Poland that had very high density of Jewish population. When this part was overrun by Germans in June 1941 there was no large scale evacuation of Jews into Russia. Many ghettos were established there later. Though there were mass deportations by Soviets earlier but they chiefly affected Polish not Jewish population which to large extent collaborated with Soviets. Germans conducted quite a few exhumations of mass graves left by Soviets. Some photographs from these events were mistakingly placed in the exhibition Wehrmachtsausstellung (in 1990s) allegedly showing German officers doing executions but upon the discovery by Polish and Hungarian historians the exhibition had to be halted and revamped. Obviously it was whitewashed. It was a part of Goldhagen offensive in Germany.

    (4) When Allies liberated camps in April – May 1945, they found 700,000 persons (alive), 100,000 of them Jews. – Again I do not know numbers but what of it. Is it too many or too little for you. If the US was defeated tomorrow they would find close to 3 millions of people in jails and prisons. And if the defeating took some time many of them would be starving and sick. BTW, in 1939 Germany had incarceration rate (prisons and concentration camps) about 4 time lower than the US in 2016. If you exclude African -Americans that rate in the US would be still 2 times higher than in the Nazi Germany 1939.

    (5) Vrba – escaped at least one month before first transports of Hungarian Jews. Like many professional witness/holocaust survivors he is not very reliable. Supposedly he was compromised during Zundel trial but I do not know details.

    (6) I’ve not read all of Hannah Arendt – certainly this was a very important book. It was not published in Israel for years. At that time the Holocauts narrative was not yet firmly defined. Her revelations (it was all in New Yorker) about despicable behavior of Jews in Ghettos and that of Judenrats were shocking, however she lifted it all from Raul Hilberg’s manuscript of yet unpublished The Destruction of the European Jews w/o acknowledgement. He was pissed. On the other hand Eichmann is not shocking in her book. You know, the banality of evil. Nothing interesting there folks. But she talked about all what we know now about what was going on in Hungary but it was mainly from Hilberg. Did she hold the punches? We do not know. I suspect that some decisions were made about historical policy and narrative after the trial and the second rate hacks started producing Holocaust stories and films. This was further intensified after 1967 war when Jews got great boost of PR and the resulting confidence.

    (7) Eichmann – Certainly he held secrets that Zionists would not like to be revealed. The dealing between Nazis and Zionists were going way back (Transfer Agreement). Then there was Kastner train and the deal about military trucks that did fell through. Who knows what else was there? Was he drugged? Hard to say. We do not know how people behave in such situations. Case of Cardinal Mindszenty started Manchurian candidate ideas in the US and CIA. Clearly Israel wanted to have the PR effects rather than just having the inconvenient partner/witnesses killed that they could have done very easily. So perhaps he was not as inconvenient as one may think so they took a risk and kept him alive.

    (8) Eichmann-Birobidzhan-Hungarian Jews – I say, nonsense.

    (9) Prof Ruth Linn in the link you gave: “She stumbled upon the story in 1987,” “Linn was shocked: Here she was, a highly educated Israeli scientist, and she had never heard about this important aspect of the Holocaust.” – there is nothing new what she wrote. All can be found in Arendt and Hilberg books that however were suppressed in Israel. There was a play about it in 1960s in Europe but it was fought by Jews and eventually forgotten. I am just shocked they have so ignorant professors in Israel. This is a good lesson however, because a lot can be explained by pure stupidity and ignorance and obviously by years of the narrative control. Not always the lies that are repeated over and over again have to be attributed to bad will. After all Linn tries to rectify it.

    (10) cockamamie tales and “scholarly analysis” spun by holocaust “scholars.” – There is a lot of nonsense. Careers can be made on Holocaust. Hoax memoirs are written. Fake survivors go on lecturing tours. Shabby dissertations, and books, schlocky and schmaltzy movies year after year. And most importantly this is a matter of very serious Jewish and Israel historical policy so there are big budgets to be spent. Most of it should be ignored. Still these nonsense is not a proof that nothing happened. Just like fake cancer patients that seek compassion and money are not the proof that cancer does not exist.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Some links to the JTA claims about Soviet evacuation of Jews can be found here:

    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=11353&p=85500#p85500
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @utu
    degree of Nazi-Soviet collaboration

    Obviously there was a direct collaboration between Gestapo and NKVD before June 1941. Some believe that actions against Polish intelligentsia in the German zone of occupied Poland were coordinated with similar actions in the Soviet zone.

    This trail may also suggest that Germany might had knowledge of Katyn or even some involvement in Katyn. The ammunition used in Katyn was allegedly German made. However why would they wait till 1943 to "discover" it? In October 1941 Wehrmacht already was in Smolensk. It would be perfect time to announce Soviet War Crimes still before the Pearl Harbor.

    Gestapo–NKVD Conferences
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo–NKVD_conferences

    German–Soviet military parade in Brest-Litovsk (there videos on YT)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Soviet_military_parade_in_Brest-Litovsk

    The collaboration was going back earlier before Molotov-Ribbentrop as Russia allowed Germany to do some military testing/training/maneuvers in Russia to circumvent Versailles treaty limitations.

    But after June 1941 I just can't imagine anything going on between Germany and SU. SC's suggestions about Eichmann, Birobidzhan and Hungarian Jews connection is just a manifestation of some phantasy that is untethered by reality and probably driven by a desperate need to acquit Germans. Nonsense!

    The Germans didn’t care about Katyn in 1941 because they were winning the war, as that changed it became in their interest to broadcast Soviet crimes, esp. as they concerned an ostensible Westen ally.

    The Eichmann-Soviet link is indeed speculative (and FWIW I have no particular sympathy for the Germans). However the claims of mass killings at these camps are even more unbelievable, so upon eliminating (so to speak) the unlikely, etc. etc.

    Read More
    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Tbbh
    If you ship, DOCUMENTED, over a million people some place and end up with 200,000 living, then they must have been all UFO abducted...seems perfectly reasonable...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • degree of Nazi-Soviet collaboration

    Obviously there was a direct collaboration between Gestapo and NKVD before June 1941. Some believe that actions against Polish intelligentsia in the German zone of occupied Poland were coordinated with similar actions in the Soviet zone.

    This trail may also suggest that Germany might had knowledge of Katyn or even some involvement in Katyn. The ammunition used in Katyn was allegedly German made. However why would they wait till 1943 to “discover” it? In October 1941 Wehrmacht already was in Smolensk. It would be perfect time to announce Soviet War Crimes still before the Pearl Harbor.

    Gestapo–NKVD Conferences

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo–NKVD_conferences

    German–Soviet military parade in Brest-Litovsk (there videos on YT)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Soviet_military_parade_in_Brest-Litovsk

    The collaboration was going back earlier before Molotov-Ribbentrop as Russia allowed Germany to do some military testing/training/maneuvers in Russia to circumvent Versailles treaty limitations.

    But after June 1941 I just can’t imagine anything going on between Germany and SU. SC’s suggestions about Eichmann, Birobidzhan and Hungarian Jews connection is just a manifestation of some phantasy that is untethered by reality and probably driven by a desperate need to acquit Germans. Nonsense!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    The Germans didn’t care about Katyn in 1941 because they were winning the war, as that changed it became in their interest to broadcast Soviet crimes, esp. as they concerned an ostensible Westen ally.

    The Eichmann-Soviet link is indeed speculative (and FWIW I have no particular sympathy for the Germans). However the claims of mass killings at these camps are even more unbelievable, so upon eliminating (so to speak) the unlikely, etc. etc.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    You appear to be quite knowledgeable on this area of holocaust, but have you incorporated the many instances of non-Jewish Poles killing Jews -- and vice versa -- in Poland? Both groups are working hard to smooth over those events, and the easiest way for both Poles and Jews to emerge spotless from the embroglio is to blame it on the Germans. For some reason, the Soviets are held blameless in deaths of Poles and Polish Jews. Tim Snyder holds that position -- "the Germans done it."

    As well, Jewish Telegraph Agency & others report that as many as 1.75 million Polish Jews fled to Russia, and also that 300,000 Polish Jews crossed from the German sector to Soviet occupied Poland. Thus, Germans would have had 'access' to max. 1 million Jews in Poland.

    When Allies liberated camps in April - May 1945, they found 700,000 persons (alive), 100,000 of them Jews. Where were they from? Who knows. Where were the other 600,000 from? Who knows. I've often wondered if some of the camp internees were Germans who had been "de-housed" -- 7 million Germans were rendered homeless by bombing campaign, that deliberately sought to destroy civilian residence.

    Add to that the name changes mentioned above, as well as the known propensity for Poles -- Jewish and non-Jews -- to fabulize, like the lady who pooped diamonds, and the claims for total obliteration, by Germans, of Polish Jews becomes less and less credible.

    Having seen Timothy Snyder address Ukrainian Christians and strongly caution them against raising the matter of Holodomor as "disrespectful of Jews," I have a hard time granting him much respect/credibility: he gets published because he satisfies Jewish requirements; if he didn't, he wouldn't get published.

    The matter of the Hungarian Jews remains one of zionist Jewry's most closely guarded secrets: that's why Eichmann had to be found and killed: he knew too much: he knew which zionist leaders sold out which Hungarians and saved which Hungarians; who got the money, who got rescued, and why Hungarian Jews were transported in the first place.
    CODOH apparently has some things to say about Vrba & Wetzler that the customary narrative rejects
    http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2014/08/re-was-rudolf-vrba-registered-at.html
    On the other hand, Prof Ruth Linn says that Israelis are not told the whole story about Vrba and Wetzler because zionist leaders are intent on covering up their complicity in something very big
    http://arlindo-correia.com/020605.html

    (nb. I've not read all of Hannah Arendt, but I don't consider her the last word on Eichmann; neither do many Jewish people, but for opposite reasons. She had access, and an assignment, but I think she pulled her punches. It's also not unlikely that Eichmann was heavily drugged or otherwise mind-bent to tell a story that would satisfy Ben Gurion and his audience. Does the dopey face he presents on the usual photo of him look like someone who was conniving enough to do deals with Nazis, with zionists, with Hungarians, and then to escape and live for nearly 20 years? Or does he look like a doped dupe?

    I've just discovered what you & many others may have known about all along: Stalin set aside -- and even financed -- Biro Bidjan, in Eastern Russia. Jewish agencies in charge of settlements there were incompetent; Jews who migrated there complained that the work was too hard, the accommodations were inadequate; men failed and turned once again to trading rags, women turned to prostitution; many returned from Biro Bidjan to their former homes. Jewish agencies determined that they needed to settle 900,000 Jews in Biro Bidjan, but getting Jews to go there and stay there was painful.

    I haven't worked out a chronology or found evidence to back up my speculation, but I wonder if Eichmann's job was to round up Hungarian Jews and transport them East to Biro Bidjan? And that by that time the bombing campaign was so intense that transport was impossible. So what happened to 400,000 Hungarian Jews? Hard to say.

    But the greatest body of evidence against credibility of the holocaust narrative is the cockamamie tales and "scholarly analysis" spun by holocaust "scholars." Their sins of omission are big enough to float an aircraft carrier through, and their attempts to "get into the mind of Hitler" reflect a kind of demonic projection. I'm working on a series of lectures by David Engel that make me alternately howl with laughter and howl with pain and outrage. When such outrageous -- and self-contradictory tales are told, in oh-so-serious and faux-cultured tones; and key 'facts' are so easily debunked, it reduces the credibility of the 'scholar' to zero.

    Why do they feel they have to lie, and lie so painfully obviously? When I hear people like Engel speak, I think of baboons in tutus, with their asses hanging out. They think they're divas. and that people are adoring them, but their audience -- if they have a shred of very basic common sense -- is silently thinking, , O my F ing god this man is insane, why do we let him teach our children?

    Good comment. The question of the Hungarian Jews sent to Auschwitz is akin to the question of the Jews sent to the AR camps: there is not a definitive or conclusive revisionist answer to what happened to them, but it is highly doubtful they were killed at these camps as claimed. (BTW, didn’t Eichmann claim at his trial that a captured Soviet submarine engine (!) was used for gassings at Treblinka?) I believe you are heading in the right direction by suggesting some degree of Nazi-Soviet collaboration, curious though it may seem.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    All these questions have been addressed on this blog so many times, that it would be a waste of time to repeat all the data regarding the fate of the 2 mil Jews refugees who have been evacuated beyond the Urals at the very beginning of the war and who returned to their places at the end.
    Just a personal memory. It happened that I met in the flesh a few Hungarian Jews from Transylvania who have been deported to Auschwitz and who returned to their homes after the war. One of them was the husband of a friend of my mother. I remember that when 'Holocaust' histories started to sprout (long after the event) she and other friends were saying bemused and chuckling (it was still permitted): 'Do you want to know how it was at Auschwitz? Just ask Tibi'.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @anonymous
    it's my understanding the Soviet POWs starved because there was no food available, & the numbers of surrendering Soviet troops was so large they could not be accommodated.

    Yes. The fate of Soviet POWs was horrible, and the Germans cannot be completely absolved of guilt for their treatment. However, the Soviets were not signatories to the Geneva Conventions and at least twice rebuffed German offers to negotiate fair treatment of prisoners. (The Red Army committed atrocities against Wehrmacht soldiers from the very beginning of the war.) The Germans had no realistic means of providing for the millions of Soviet prisoners that they took in the opening months of the war, and however cruel and tragic their fate, this sad chapter in no way supports claims of German intentions to conduct genocide in the East.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @utu
    how is it relevant how many Eastern European revisionists there are?

    There is a collective memory that is experience based. They saw their Jewish neighbors taken to camps or ghettos and then they saw ghettos evacuated and when WWII ended the Jews did not return. And many gentiles there were inmates in camps and some there worked for police helping round up Jews and some there participated in the executions.

    My chief point is that millions of Jews died. Jews were subjected to a special treatment no other group (except for some Gypsies) had to suffer. They were in German custody practically from the day one when occupation of those countries started.

    I would not be surprised if many of the Jews sent through the AR camps did indeed die somewhere else in the SU

    The death count for Auschwitz was reduced from 4mil to circa 1mil. This was the result of shift occurring in the official historiography of Holocaust from camps to further East. The center of gravity was no longer Auschwitz. The shift of attention from camps and gassing to Einsatzgruppen activities in eastern Poland and western SU. I think good work was done by Browning in Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 where he collected interviews and testimomien of Germans policemen mostly form Hamburg are who actually were doing the mass executions of Jews in eastern Poland. More recently Timothy Snyder in Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin shows the picture of what was going there that was largely unknown in the West but Russians, Ukrainians and Poles were quite familiar with. In some Jewish circles Snyder book was not received well because he paid lots of attention to other no Jewish victims.

    We still do not have a number of how many died that we could trust. How much lower is the number than 6mil? Is it 5, 4 or 2.5mil? Yad Vashem is trying to create database of all names of Jews who died where were they from. I am not sure what is their progress (4 million names?) but survivors of various townships and shtetls that vanished created archives and lists of people who they think died. But we do not know what was the cause of their death. How many because of old age, malnutrition, overwork and diseases and how many as a result of deliberate executions.

    As far as gas chambers in Auschwitz the most puzzling is the fate of Hungarian Jews. What happened to 400,000 Hungarian Jews who allegedly were shipped to Auschwitz in 1944? I think it is pretty well established that they did not survive. Or perhaps it is not? If there were no gas chambers how were they were killed. It was in time when the Red Army was already in the eastern Poland and they could not be shipped East as other Jews in 1942 and 1943.

    Before Katyn was discovered in 1943 by Germans, Stalin was inquired by Polish authorities about the fate of Polish 1939 POWs in the SU because the contact with them was lost in spring of 1940. No letters to families, no Red Cross... Supposedly Stalin said that perhaps they escaped, perhaps to Manchuria because Soviet Union is so large that nobody can be sure. This callous and cavalier attitude of Stalin reminds me of attitude of some revisionists/deniers when asked about, so what happened to the Jews of Warsaw or Lodz or Bratislava, where TF did they go? Again to Manchuria?

    You appear to be quite knowledgeable on this area of holocaust, but have you incorporated the many instances of non-Jewish Poles killing Jews — and vice versa — in Poland? Both groups are working hard to smooth over those events, and the easiest way for both Poles and Jews to emerge spotless from the embroglio is to blame it on the Germans. For some reason, the Soviets are held blameless in deaths of Poles and Polish Jews. Tim Snyder holds that position — “the Germans done it.”

    As well, Jewish Telegraph Agency & others report that as many as 1.75 million Polish Jews fled to Russia, and also that 300,000 Polish Jews crossed from the German sector to Soviet occupied Poland. Thus, Germans would have had ‘access’ to max. 1 million Jews in Poland.

    When Allies liberated camps in April – May 1945, they found 700,000 persons (alive), 100,000 of them Jews. Where were they from? Who knows. Where were the other 600,000 from? Who knows. I’ve often wondered if some of the camp internees were Germans who had been “de-housed” — 7 million Germans were rendered homeless by bombing campaign, that deliberately sought to destroy civilian residence.

    Add to that the name changes mentioned above, as well as the known propensity for Poles — Jewish and non-Jews — to fabulize, like the lady who pooped diamonds, and the claims for total obliteration, by Germans, of Polish Jews becomes less and less credible.

    Having seen Timothy Snyder address Ukrainian Christians and strongly caution them against raising the matter of Holodomor as “disrespectful of Jews,” I have a hard time granting him much respect/credibility: he gets published because he satisfies Jewish requirements; if he didn’t, he wouldn’t get published.

    The matter of the Hungarian Jews remains one of zionist Jewry’s most closely guarded secrets: that’s why Eichmann had to be found and killed: he knew too much: he knew which zionist leaders sold out which Hungarians and saved which Hungarians; who got the money, who got rescued, and why Hungarian Jews were transported in the first place.
    CODOH apparently has some things to say about Vrba & Wetzler that the customary narrative rejects

    http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2014/08/re-was-rudolf-vrba-registered-at.html

    On the other hand, Prof Ruth Linn says that Israelis are not told the whole story about Vrba and Wetzler because zionist leaders are intent on covering up their complicity in something very big

    http://arlindo-correia.com/020605.html

    (nb. I’ve not read all of Hannah Arendt, but I don’t consider her the last word on Eichmann; neither do many Jewish people, but for opposite reasons. She had access, and an assignment, but I think she pulled her punches. It’s also not unlikely that Eichmann was heavily drugged or otherwise mind-bent to tell a story that would satisfy Ben Gurion and his audience. Does the dopey face he presents on the usual photo of him look like someone who was conniving enough to do deals with Nazis, with zionists, with Hungarians, and then to escape and live for nearly 20 years? Or does he look like a doped dupe?

    I’ve just discovered what you & many others may have known about all along: Stalin set aside — and even financed — Biro Bidjan, in Eastern Russia. Jewish agencies in charge of settlements there were incompetent; Jews who migrated there complained that the work was too hard, the accommodations were inadequate; men failed and turned once again to trading rags, women turned to prostitution; many returned from Biro Bidjan to their former homes. Jewish agencies determined that they needed to settle 900,000 Jews in Biro Bidjan, but getting Jews to go there and stay there was painful.

    I haven’t worked out a chronology or found evidence to back up my speculation, but I wonder if Eichmann’s job was to round up Hungarian Jews and transport them East to Biro Bidjan? And that by that time the bombing campaign was so intense that transport was impossible. So what happened to 400,000 Hungarian Jews? Hard to say.

    But the greatest body of evidence against credibility of the holocaust narrative is the cockamamie tales and “scholarly analysis” spun by holocaust “scholars.” Their sins of omission are big enough to float an aircraft carrier through, and their attempts to “get into the mind of Hitler” reflect a kind of demonic projection. I’m working on a series of lectures by David Engel that make me alternately howl with laughter and howl with pain and outrage. When such outrageous — and self-contradictory tales are told, in oh-so-serious and faux-cultured tones; and key ‘facts’ are so easily debunked, it reduces the credibility of the ‘scholar’ to zero.

    Why do they feel they have to lie, and lie so painfully obviously? When I hear people like Engel speak, I think of baboons in tutus, with their asses hanging out. They think they’re divas. and that people are adoring them, but their audience — if they have a shred of very basic common sense — is silently thinking, , O my F ing god this man is insane, why do we let him teach our children?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Good comment. The question of the Hungarian Jews sent to Auschwitz is akin to the question of the Jews sent to the AR camps: there is not a definitive or conclusive revisionist answer to what happened to them, but it is highly doubtful they were killed at these camps as claimed. (BTW, didn’t Eichmann claim at his trial that a captured Soviet submarine engine (!) was used for gassings at Treblinka?) I believe you are heading in the right direction by suggesting some degree of Nazi-Soviet collaboration, curious though it may seem.
    , @utu
    (1) non-Jewish Poles killing Jews — and vice versa - Rounding error effect. 3 orders of magnitude too low to affect the balance.

    (2) Tim Snyder holds that position — “the Germans done it.” - No, he talks about various pogroms and the role of Ukrainian and Baltic States auxiliaries but as far as Holocaust it wa sGerman project, planning and execution. What would you expect? He also talks of killings by Soviets and about the non-Jewish victims like Poles massacred by Ukrainians in Volhynia.

    (3) 1.75 million Polish Jews fled to Russia, and also that 300,000 Polish Jews crossed from the German sector to Soviet occupied Poland. - I do not know the exact numbers but keep in mind that Soviets occupied part of Poland that had very high density of Jewish population. When this part was overrun by Germans in June 1941 there was no large scale evacuation of Jews into Russia. Many ghettos were established there later. Though there were mass deportations by Soviets earlier but they chiefly affected Polish not Jewish population which to large extent collaborated with Soviets. Germans conducted quite a few exhumations of mass graves left by Soviets. Some photographs from these events were mistakingly placed in the exhibition Wehrmachtsausstellung (in 1990s) allegedly showing German officers doing executions but upon the discovery by Polish and Hungarian historians the exhibition had to be halted and revamped. Obviously it was whitewashed. It was a part of Goldhagen offensive in Germany.

    (4) When Allies liberated camps in April – May 1945, they found 700,000 persons (alive), 100,000 of them Jews. - Again I do not know numbers but what of it. Is it too many or too little for you. If the US was defeated tomorrow they would find close to 3 millions of people in jails and prisons. And if the defeating took some time many of them would be starving and sick. BTW, in 1939 Germany had incarceration rate (prisons and concentration camps) about 4 time lower than the US in 2016. If you exclude African -Americans that rate in the US would be still 2 times higher than in the Nazi Germany 1939.

    (5) Vrba - escaped at least one month before first transports of Hungarian Jews. Like many professional witness/holocaust survivors he is not very reliable. Supposedly he was compromised during Zundel trial but I do not know details.

    (6) I’ve not read all of Hannah Arendt - certainly this was a very important book. It was not published in Israel for years. At that time the Holocauts narrative was not yet firmly defined. Her revelations (it was all in New Yorker) about despicable behavior of Jews in Ghettos and that of Judenrats were shocking, however she lifted it all from Raul Hilberg's manuscript of yet unpublished The Destruction of the European Jews w/o acknowledgement. He was pissed. On the other hand Eichmann is not shocking in her book. You know, the banality of evil. Nothing interesting there folks. But she talked about all what we know now about what was going on in Hungary but it was mainly from Hilberg. Did she hold the punches? We do not know. I suspect that some decisions were made about historical policy and narrative after the trial and the second rate hacks started producing Holocaust stories and films. This was further intensified after 1967 war when Jews got great boost of PR and the resulting confidence.

    (7) Eichmann - Certainly he held secrets that Zionists would not like to be revealed. The dealing between Nazis and Zionists were going way back (Transfer Agreement). Then there was Kastner train and the deal about military trucks that did fell through. Who knows what else was there? Was he drugged? Hard to say. We do not know how people behave in such situations. Case of Cardinal Mindszenty started Manchurian candidate ideas in the US and CIA. Clearly Israel wanted to have the PR effects rather than just having the inconvenient partner/witnesses killed that they could have done very easily. So perhaps he was not as inconvenient as one may think so they took a risk and kept him alive.

    (8) Eichmann-Birobidzhan-Hungarian Jews - I say, nonsense.

    (9) Prof Ruth Linn in the link you gave: "She stumbled upon the story in 1987," "Linn was shocked: Here she was, a highly educated Israeli scientist, and she had never heard about this important aspect of the Holocaust." - there is nothing new what she wrote. All can be found in Arendt and Hilberg books that however were suppressed in Israel. There was a play about it in 1960s in Europe but it was fought by Jews and eventually forgotten. I am just shocked they have so ignorant professors in Israel. This is a good lesson however, because a lot can be explained by pure stupidity and ignorance and obviously by years of the narrative control. Not always the lies that are repeated over and over again have to be attributed to bad will. After all Linn tries to rectify it.

    (10) cockamamie tales and “scholarly analysis” spun by holocaust “scholars.” - There is a lot of nonsense. Careers can be made on Holocaust. Hoax memoirs are written. Fake survivors go on lecturing tours. Shabby dissertations, and books, schlocky and schmaltzy movies year after year. And most importantly this is a matter of very serious Jewish and Israel historical policy so there are big budgets to be spent. Most of it should be ignored. Still these nonsense is not a proof that nothing happened. Just like fake cancer patients that seek compassion and money are not the proof that cancer does not exist.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Tbbh
    Holocaust deniers deny that Germans found efficient ways to kill jews, but have zero problem with the 3-3.5 million soviet POWs dying of exposure, malnutrition, and disease. So the jews were treated BETTER than soviets? I would rather be gassed immediatly than starved.

    Is the argument "the nazis cared more for jews than soviet POWs?" I call bullshit on that.

    it’s my understanding the Soviet POWs starved because there was no food available, & the numbers of surrendering Soviet troops was so large they could not be accommodated.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Yes. The fate of Soviet POWs was horrible, and the Germans cannot be completely absolved of guilt for their treatment. However, the Soviets were not signatories to the Geneva Conventions and at least twice rebuffed German offers to negotiate fair treatment of prisoners. (The Red Army committed atrocities against Wehrmacht soldiers from the very beginning of the war.) The Germans had no realistic means of providing for the millions of Soviet prisoners that they took in the opening months of the war, and however cruel and tragic their fate, this sad chapter in no way supports claims of German intentions to conduct genocide in the East.
    , @Tbbh
    They left them in barbed wire corrals with no food or shelter but they built camps to keep their despised jews in good health...I call bullshit.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    Fair enough re. the unassimilated nature of the Polish Jews. I am still not clear on your point, though? You acknowledge the official narrative is largely false, how is it relevant how many Eastern European revisionists there are? (FWIW I would not be surprised if many of the Jews sent through the AR camps did indeed die somewhere else in the SU, but there is little evidence they were gassed, buried, disinterred, and burned by the millions at those camps, as the official story holds.)

    how is it relevant how many Eastern European revisionists there are?

    There is a collective memory that is experience based. They saw their Jewish neighbors taken to camps or ghettos and then they saw ghettos evacuated and when WWII ended the Jews did not return. And many gentiles there were inmates in camps and some there worked for police helping round up Jews and some there participated in the executions.

    My chief point is that millions of Jews died. Jews were subjected to a special treatment no other group (except for some Gypsies) had to suffer. They were in German custody practically from the day one when occupation of those countries started.

    I would not be surprised if many of the Jews sent through the AR camps did indeed die somewhere else in the SU

    The death count for Auschwitz was reduced from 4mil to circa 1mil. This was the result of shift occurring in the official historiography of Holocaust from camps to further East. The center of gravity was no longer Auschwitz. The shift of attention from camps and gassing to Einsatzgruppen activities in eastern Poland and western SU. I think good work was done by Browning in Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 where he collected interviews and testimomien of Germans policemen mostly form Hamburg are who actually were doing the mass executions of Jews in eastern Poland. More recently Timothy Snyder in Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin shows the picture of what was going there that was largely unknown in the West but Russians, Ukrainians and Poles were quite familiar with. In some Jewish circles Snyder book was not received well because he paid lots of attention to other no Jewish victims.

    We still do not have a number of how many died that we could trust. How much lower is the number than 6mil? Is it 5, 4 or 2.5mil? Yad Vashem is trying to create database of all names of Jews who died where were they from. I am not sure what is their progress (4 million names?) but survivors of various townships and shtetls that vanished created archives and lists of people who they think died. But we do not know what was the cause of their death. How many because of old age, malnutrition, overwork and diseases and how many as a result of deliberate executions.

    As far as gas chambers in Auschwitz the most puzzling is the fate of Hungarian Jews. What happened to 400,000 Hungarian Jews who allegedly were shipped to Auschwitz in 1944? I think it is pretty well established that they did not survive. Or perhaps it is not? If there were no gas chambers how were they were killed. It was in time when the Red Army was already in the eastern Poland and they could not be shipped East as other Jews in 1942 and 1943.

    Before Katyn was discovered in 1943 by Germans, Stalin was inquired by Polish authorities about the fate of Polish 1939 POWs in the SU because the contact with them was lost in spring of 1940. No letters to families, no Red Cross… Supposedly Stalin said that perhaps they escaped, perhaps to Manchuria because Soviet Union is so large that nobody can be sure. This callous and cavalier attitude of Stalin reminds me of attitude of some revisionists/deniers when asked about, so what happened to the Jews of Warsaw or Lodz or Bratislava, where TF did they go? Again to Manchuria?

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    You appear to be quite knowledgeable on this area of holocaust, but have you incorporated the many instances of non-Jewish Poles killing Jews -- and vice versa -- in Poland? Both groups are working hard to smooth over those events, and the easiest way for both Poles and Jews to emerge spotless from the embroglio is to blame it on the Germans. For some reason, the Soviets are held blameless in deaths of Poles and Polish Jews. Tim Snyder holds that position -- "the Germans done it."

    As well, Jewish Telegraph Agency & others report that as many as 1.75 million Polish Jews fled to Russia, and also that 300,000 Polish Jews crossed from the German sector to Soviet occupied Poland. Thus, Germans would have had 'access' to max. 1 million Jews in Poland.

    When Allies liberated camps in April - May 1945, they found 700,000 persons (alive), 100,000 of them Jews. Where were they from? Who knows. Where were the other 600,000 from? Who knows. I've often wondered if some of the camp internees were Germans who had been "de-housed" -- 7 million Germans were rendered homeless by bombing campaign, that deliberately sought to destroy civilian residence.

    Add to that the name changes mentioned above, as well as the known propensity for Poles -- Jewish and non-Jews -- to fabulize, like the lady who pooped diamonds, and the claims for total obliteration, by Germans, of Polish Jews becomes less and less credible.

    Having seen Timothy Snyder address Ukrainian Christians and strongly caution them against raising the matter of Holodomor as "disrespectful of Jews," I have a hard time granting him much respect/credibility: he gets published because he satisfies Jewish requirements; if he didn't, he wouldn't get published.

    The matter of the Hungarian Jews remains one of zionist Jewry's most closely guarded secrets: that's why Eichmann had to be found and killed: he knew too much: he knew which zionist leaders sold out which Hungarians and saved which Hungarians; who got the money, who got rescued, and why Hungarian Jews were transported in the first place.
    CODOH apparently has some things to say about Vrba & Wetzler that the customary narrative rejects
    http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2014/08/re-was-rudolf-vrba-registered-at.html
    On the other hand, Prof Ruth Linn says that Israelis are not told the whole story about Vrba and Wetzler because zionist leaders are intent on covering up their complicity in something very big
    http://arlindo-correia.com/020605.html

    (nb. I've not read all of Hannah Arendt, but I don't consider her the last word on Eichmann; neither do many Jewish people, but for opposite reasons. She had access, and an assignment, but I think she pulled her punches. It's also not unlikely that Eichmann was heavily drugged or otherwise mind-bent to tell a story that would satisfy Ben Gurion and his audience. Does the dopey face he presents on the usual photo of him look like someone who was conniving enough to do deals with Nazis, with zionists, with Hungarians, and then to escape and live for nearly 20 years? Or does he look like a doped dupe?

    I've just discovered what you & many others may have known about all along: Stalin set aside -- and even financed -- Biro Bidjan, in Eastern Russia. Jewish agencies in charge of settlements there were incompetent; Jews who migrated there complained that the work was too hard, the accommodations were inadequate; men failed and turned once again to trading rags, women turned to prostitution; many returned from Biro Bidjan to their former homes. Jewish agencies determined that they needed to settle 900,000 Jews in Biro Bidjan, but getting Jews to go there and stay there was painful.

    I haven't worked out a chronology or found evidence to back up my speculation, but I wonder if Eichmann's job was to round up Hungarian Jews and transport them East to Biro Bidjan? And that by that time the bombing campaign was so intense that transport was impossible. So what happened to 400,000 Hungarian Jews? Hard to say.

    But the greatest body of evidence against credibility of the holocaust narrative is the cockamamie tales and "scholarly analysis" spun by holocaust "scholars." Their sins of omission are big enough to float an aircraft carrier through, and their attempts to "get into the mind of Hitler" reflect a kind of demonic projection. I'm working on a series of lectures by David Engel that make me alternately howl with laughter and howl with pain and outrage. When such outrageous -- and self-contradictory tales are told, in oh-so-serious and faux-cultured tones; and key 'facts' are so easily debunked, it reduces the credibility of the 'scholar' to zero.

    Why do they feel they have to lie, and lie so painfully obviously? When I hear people like Engel speak, I think of baboons in tutus, with their asses hanging out. They think they're divas. and that people are adoring them, but their audience -- if they have a shred of very basic common sense -- is silently thinking, , O my F ing god this man is insane, why do we let him teach our children?
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  • @utu
    They encourage you to use it so they can rake off value via inflation

    That is not logical. Would you keep you money in your mattress to fight inflation this way? Or even better, if you really want to hurt THEM burn money right after you get it so THEY will not get it back.

    Would you keep you money in your mattress to fight inflation
    Some people hold hard assets, like gold, to keep from having the value of their money taken by inflation. It’s not possible to steal value from gold directly by inflation; you have to either seize it via an order, as FDR executed, or slap onerous capital gains taxes on it when people sell.

    Is there anything not logical in my assertion that I do not control the value of the asset we call the US Dollar? Do I in fact control that asset? Who DOES control that asset?

    Now, there’s a leap in my logic, perhaps: that someone who sets the value of an asset that I own will depreciate that asset so as to “buy” it back from me at a lower price, when I exchange that asset (money) for other goods. Surely no asset holder would do that?

    if you really want to hurt THEM burn money right after you get it so THEY will not get it back
    I don’t need to burn my dollars and would do no such thing. I merely point out that the value of the dollar is not under my control (or the market’s) but it IS under the control of the suppliers of “dollars.” They are slowly “burning” that value.

    My point to the original commenter: you cannot consider something “yours” if someone else has possession of the means to deprive you of the value of it the way that dollar issuers can do to dollars.

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  • @Svigor

    There are no Holocaust deniers in Eastern Europe. Nobody questions the fact that Jewish communities were destroyed completely. In Poland 3 million Jews lived before WWII. There were villages and towns that were 80% Jewish. Jews “vanished” and they have not returned after the WWII. These Jews did not reappear in Israel or the US because they died. Officially it is estimated that 10% of Polish Jews survived. It is possible that the number is too low but there is no question that the vast majority of Jews in Eastern Europe (Poland, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Ukraine, Baltic States) was destroyed.
     
    1. I don't really care what "nobody questions." It's irrelevant.
    2. If you can't prove death, it's almost impossible to try a murder; why should it be different for 3m murders. Censuses are a pretty lousy way to "prove" deaths occurred, much less how they occurred. Can we reliably track exactly how the xx other million people who died in that war met their ends?
    3. There was a world war going on. Even if we assume someone died, who's to say he didn't die fighting, or at the hands of the Soviets, or from a bomb dropped on him, or from any of a number of different causes?

    Holocaust deniers deny that Germans found efficient ways to kill jews, but have zero problem with the 3-3.5 million soviet POWs dying of exposure, malnutrition, and disease. So the jews were treated BETTER than soviets? I would rather be gassed immediatly than starved.

    Is the argument “the nazis cared more for jews than soviet POWs?” I call bullshit on that.
     
    I am no more wedded to the orthodox narrative of what happened to Soviet POWs than I am to the orthodox narrative of what happened to Jews.

    A much better argument would be to wonder why we accept the Holodomor/Soviet genocide narrative and numbers when we question the German Holocaust numbers. To which I'd respond, "I don't, but denying Soviet genocide won't get you into trouble..."

    I deny the idea that anyone denies that Germans found efficient ways to kill Jews. I do deny that they used any efficient methods. I came up with a far more efficient method than camps and gassing in five minutes, on the back of a cocktail napkin; put them on trains and park the cars underwater. They're all dead in 15m with no mess and no expensive camps, their corpses already loaded into train cars for transport and disposal wherever you like.

    Shooting them en situ would've been more efficient, too.

    I don’t really care what “nobody questions.” It’s irrelevant.

    I take their opinion and beliefs anytime over singular nobody like yourself. The issue that I brought up was the question about what happened to the Jews of Eastern Europe. The majority did not survive the war. I do not insist that the the canonical Holocaust narrative is correct. How did they die and how many of them died? Personally I gave plenty of doubts about the gas chambers and the canonical number of 6 millions. They are part of the official narrative that was transformed into a cult. But the question of how millions of Jews died remains. This is the question that most of the so called revisionist or Holocaust deniers do not want to deal with because they simple do not have an answer. David Irving however, who never directly dealt with the Jewish deaths during WWII until he was forced to because of the trial that he brought on himself investigated the issue and concluded that the number of 6m is exaggerated but millions died, remained skeptical about gas chambers but did not challenge research of people like Browning about Einsatzgruppen and their role. Unlike you he is not nobody.

    There was a world war going on. Even if we assume someone died, who’s to say he didn’t die fighting, or at the hands of the Soviets, or from a bomb dropped on him, or from any of a number of different causes?

    Even if we assume someone died – are you for real?

    a number of different causes – What matters that Jews were in German custody locked up in ghettos and camps.

    “If you can’t prove death, it’s almost impossible to try a murder”; “doesn’t hold up in a courtroom”

    You have probably watched too many courtroom dramas and think they represent reality where the truth is being established and that OJ is innocent. Very typical for some childlike Americans. But here it is the case bad faith.

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  • @Jaye ryan
    We at OD think the Six Million Gassed Jews Holocaust story is best viewed as another ethnocentric Jewish, Judeo Christian religious myth. This myth functions exactly the same way as that other ethnocentric religious myth the Parting of the Red Sea in the Jewish Old Testament Bible.

    How could the Jews (God s Chosen People) not get stuck in the mud at the bottom of the Red Sea? It s scientifically impossible.

    And what about the Egyptians who were not God s Chosen People?

    The Six Million Gassed Jews Holocaust story is true? Why? Because it is true - it s Biblical truth . Anybody that doubts this story is a religious heretic and unbeliever...

    A Holocaust denier

    Religious heretics get persecuted

    Bingo! The “Holocaust” is a pseudo-religion. As such, it is the foundation of the liberal world of modernity, which includes NATO hegemony, the EU, what we call the “New World Order”” and the reign of the US dollar as reserve currency. It is also the most lucrative extortion racket in history, as it involves entire nations in its ever expanding net of “guilt reparations.”

    As a pseudo-religion, it depends upon faith and authoritative pronouncements, not facts or empirical evidence. It has its own high priests (Eli Wiesel, Simon Wiesenthal); its own martyrs (Anne Frank et al) its own temples – Simon Wiesenthal Center, Museum of Tolerance, etc; its saints – the sacrosanct “survivors” and its devils and demons, e.g., Hitler, Himmler, the ubiquitous Mengele, etc. Its entire foundation is upon absurd, ridiculous and physically impossible claims, since the pseudo-religion in question eschews supernatural causality.

    Christians believe in Christ’s Resurrection, but they acknowledge that their belief is faith based and not empirically based and that this unique event was due to a miracle caused by God. On the other hand, the “Holocaust” religion expects – in fact, demands- that people accept the fact that the laws of physics and common sense were suspended in 6 discrete locations over a period of 4 years or so, but they can only invoke very vague causes like “the German Method” and “unique evil.” The legend of the 6 million is the greatest “blood libel” in the history of mankind.

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  • The gas chambers were supposedly made indistinguishable from showers so as to trick the Jews into compliantly filing inside; wouldn’t Germans in gas masks and sealed suits (yes, you need equipment to handle gassed corpses without being affected by gas-impregnated corpses) dragging gassed corpses out of the “showers” on a regular basis sorta tip the prisoners off? This is why the orthodox narrative portrays the clever, sane Germans as stupid and insane; fewer will question the silliness of the narrative; stupid/crazy people will do anything.

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  • @Tbbh
    "Beef the might have" has fallen silent on my question...

    Sorry, what question?

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    • Replies: @Tbbh
    Quoting myself:

    Holocaust deniers deny that Germans found efficient ways to kill jews, but have zero problem with the 3-3.5 million soviet POWs dying of exposure, malnutrition, and disease. So the jews were treated BETTER than soviets? I would rather be gassed immediately than starved.

    ***Is the argument “the nazis cared more for jews than soviet POWs?”*** I call bullshit on that.
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  • @utu
    In post WWII Poland many Jews joined new pro Soviet regime and many collaborated in state power apparatus. Then there were emigrations in several waves. Still the numbers of Jews after WWII in Poland is around 300,000 which is 10% what it was before the war. It is possible that the number is too small.

    Yes, I read that names were changed though they did not fool many but what is important this applied to already assimilated Jews who often survived because they could hide among the so called "Aryan" population or they survived in the Soviet Union. Majority of Jews before WWII were unassimilated, they did not speak Polish, they did not have Polish, Ukrainians or Belarusian friends or even acquaintances as often they lived in virtually 100% Jewish towns and villages, they were strict orthodox and Hassidim. These Jews vanished. They certainly could not vanish because of name changes.

    I repeat my first point: there is no Holocaust denial or even challenge to most points of the official narrative in Eastern Europe and there is good reason for it. People there had the first hand knowledge what was happening to the Jews and they had first hand knowledge of the landscape after the WWII that was completely devoid of Jews. However the stories of gas chambers, I think, did not exist during the WWII and Auschwitz was not seen as an extermination camp but as vast archipelago of labor camps and a prison camp in the very industrial part of Poland that was out of reach of Allied bombers till late 1943. In Silesia there were many families who had relatives who did time in Auschwitz including those who were released during the WWII because they finished their sentences. People talked. There were rumors but no rumors of extermination via gas chambers. Still after WWII people there accepted the gas chambers narrative.

    What happened to Jews who were first kept in ghettos and then in 1942 and 1943 they started to be evacuated to various places like Treblinka, Belzec,..? We do not know what exactly has happened there. But we know that at least 500,000 Jews of Warsaw Ghetto did not survive and there were hundreds of towns that had their ghettos created by Germans and at some point the ghettos were liquidated. The Jews were take out and never returned.

    Fair enough re. the unassimilated nature of the Polish Jews. I am still not clear on your point, though? You acknowledge the official narrative is largely false, how is it relevant how many Eastern European revisionists there are? (FWIW I would not be surprised if many of the Jews sent through the AR camps did indeed die somewhere else in the SU, but there is little evidence they were gassed, buried, disinterred, and burned by the millions at those camps, as the official story holds.)

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    • Replies: @utu
    how is it relevant how many Eastern European revisionists there are?

    There is a collective memory that is experience based. They saw their Jewish neighbors taken to camps or ghettos and then they saw ghettos evacuated and when WWII ended the Jews did not return. And many gentiles there were inmates in camps and some there worked for police helping round up Jews and some there participated in the executions.

    My chief point is that millions of Jews died. Jews were subjected to a special treatment no other group (except for some Gypsies) had to suffer. They were in German custody practically from the day one when occupation of those countries started.

    I would not be surprised if many of the Jews sent through the AR camps did indeed die somewhere else in the SU

    The death count for Auschwitz was reduced from 4mil to circa 1mil. This was the result of shift occurring in the official historiography of Holocaust from camps to further East. The center of gravity was no longer Auschwitz. The shift of attention from camps and gassing to Einsatzgruppen activities in eastern Poland and western SU. I think good work was done by Browning in Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 where he collected interviews and testimomien of Germans policemen mostly form Hamburg are who actually were doing the mass executions of Jews in eastern Poland. More recently Timothy Snyder in Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin shows the picture of what was going there that was largely unknown in the West but Russians, Ukrainians and Poles were quite familiar with. In some Jewish circles Snyder book was not received well because he paid lots of attention to other no Jewish victims.

    We still do not have a number of how many died that we could trust. How much lower is the number than 6mil? Is it 5, 4 or 2.5mil? Yad Vashem is trying to create database of all names of Jews who died where were they from. I am not sure what is their progress (4 million names?) but survivors of various townships and shtetls that vanished created archives and lists of people who they think died. But we do not know what was the cause of their death. How many because of old age, malnutrition, overwork and diseases and how many as a result of deliberate executions.

    As far as gas chambers in Auschwitz the most puzzling is the fate of Hungarian Jews. What happened to 400,000 Hungarian Jews who allegedly were shipped to Auschwitz in 1944? I think it is pretty well established that they did not survive. Or perhaps it is not? If there were no gas chambers how were they were killed. It was in time when the Red Army was already in the eastern Poland and they could not be shipped East as other Jews in 1942 and 1943.

    Before Katyn was discovered in 1943 by Germans, Stalin was inquired by Polish authorities about the fate of Polish 1939 POWs in the SU because the contact with them was lost in spring of 1940. No letters to families, no Red Cross... Supposedly Stalin said that perhaps they escaped, perhaps to Manchuria because Soviet Union is so large that nobody can be sure. This callous and cavalier attitude of Stalin reminds me of attitude of some revisionists/deniers when asked about, so what happened to the Jews of Warsaw or Lodz or Bratislava, where TF did they go? Again to Manchuria?
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  • “Everbody knew” that starving Jews meant deliberate starvation, not food shortages. “Everybody knew” doesn’t hold up in a courtroom, for good reason.

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  • I repeat my first point: there is no Holocaust denial or even challenge to most points of the official narrative in Eastern Europe and there is good reason for it. People there had the first hand knowledge what was happening to the Jews and they had first hand knowledge of the landscape after the WWII that was completely devoid of Jews.

    A great deal of the eyewitness testimony displays this kind of sloppy logic. “Everybody knew” (that people who were around 1 day and not the next were gassed, not transferred to another camp, dead of natural causes, etc; that every march was a “death march” intended to kill people by walking them to death, not simply a march westward to escape the Red Army’s advance – that even the march was deliberate, the Germans having enough cars around but preferring to make Jews walk; etc.). It’s endless. In fact, it seems to be the only thing eyewitness testimony offers.

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  • There are no Holocaust deniers in Eastern Europe. Nobody questions the fact that Jewish communities were destroyed completely. In Poland 3 million Jews lived before WWII. There were villages and towns that were 80% Jewish. Jews “vanished” and they have not returned after the WWII. These Jews did not reappear in Israel or the US because they died. Officially it is estimated that 10% of Polish Jews survived. It is possible that the number is too low but there is no question that the vast majority of Jews in Eastern Europe (Poland, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Ukraine, Baltic States) was destroyed.

    1. I don’t really care what “nobody questions.” It’s irrelevant.
    2. If you can’t prove death, it’s almost impossible to try a murder; why should it be different for 3m murders. Censuses are a pretty lousy way to “prove” deaths occurred, much less how they occurred. Can we reliably track exactly how the xx other million people who died in that war met their ends?
    3. There was a world war going on. Even if we assume someone died, who’s to say he didn’t die fighting, or at the hands of the Soviets, or from a bomb dropped on him, or from any of a number of different causes?

    Holocaust deniers deny that Germans found efficient ways to kill jews, but have zero problem with the 3-3.5 million soviet POWs dying of exposure, malnutrition, and disease. So the jews were treated BETTER than soviets? I would rather be gassed immediatly than starved.

    Is the argument “the nazis cared more for jews than soviet POWs?” I call bullshit on that.

    I am no more wedded to the orthodox narrative of what happened to Soviet POWs than I am to the orthodox narrative of what happened to Jews.

    A much better argument would be to wonder why we accept the Holodomor/Soviet genocide narrative and numbers when we question the German Holocaust numbers. To which I’d respond, “I don’t, but denying Soviet genocide won’t get you into trouble…”

    I deny the idea that anyone denies that Germans found efficient ways to kill Jews. I do deny that they used any efficient methods. I came up with a far more efficient method than camps and gassing in five minutes, on the back of a cocktail napkin; put them on trains and park the cars underwater. They’re all dead in 15m with no mess and no expensive camps, their corpses already loaded into train cars for transport and disposal wherever you like.

    Shooting them en situ would’ve been more efficient, too.

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    • Replies: @utu
    I don’t really care what “nobody questions.” It’s irrelevant.

    I take their opinion and beliefs anytime over singular nobody like yourself. The issue that I brought up was the question about what happened to the Jews of Eastern Europe. The majority did not survive the war. I do not insist that the the canonical Holocaust narrative is correct. How did they die and how many of them died? Personally I gave plenty of doubts about the gas chambers and the canonical number of 6 millions. They are part of the official narrative that was transformed into a cult. But the question of how millions of Jews died remains. This is the question that most of the so called revisionist or Holocaust deniers do not want to deal with because they simple do not have an answer. David Irving however, who never directly dealt with the Jewish deaths during WWII until he was forced to because of the trial that he brought on himself investigated the issue and concluded that the number of 6m is exaggerated but millions died, remained skeptical about gas chambers but did not challenge research of people like Browning about Einsatzgruppen and their role. Unlike you he is not nobody.

    There was a world war going on. Even if we assume someone died, who’s to say he didn’t die fighting, or at the hands of the Soviets, or from a bomb dropped on him, or from any of a number of different causes?

    Even if we assume someone died - are you for real?

    a number of different causes - What matters that Jews were in German custody locked up in ghettos and camps.

    "If you can’t prove death, it’s almost impossible to try a murder"; "doesn’t hold up in a courtroom"

    You have probably watched too many courtroom dramas and think they represent reality where the truth is being established and that OJ is innocent. Very typical for some childlike Americans. But here it is the case bad faith.
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  • @Svigor

    I have no idea. I know I’ve never seen a blueprint or diagram of a gas chamber. I’ve never seen a shred of forensic evidence of one, or a photo of the mechanisms of one, or heard a plausible explanation of how they worked, or even had it explained to me how gas chambers as a method of extermination even make sense; there were far cleaner, safer, quicker, and cheaper methods available.
     
    Really the whole narrative makes little sense. Even if you accept the gas chamber narrative; why keep the method of extermination within a work camp? Wouldn't sort of undermine the camp's efficiency as a work camp? Wouldn't it be better to round up the people marked for death and simply "disappear" them (from the point of view of other internees) by walking them out, ostensibly to, say, move them to another camp?

    And don't get me started on how silly it is that the supposed gas chambers were perfectly disguised as showers, right down to the breakable windows and wooden doors. That's just eye-rollingly bad.

    The whole thing is a murder mystery writ large. It's easy to sell people on mysteries, and I think that's how to sell holocaust heterodoxy; appeal to people's inner detective.

    We at OD think the Six Million Gassed Jews Holocaust story is best viewed as another ethnocentric Jewish, Judeo Christian religious myth. This myth functions exactly the same way as that other ethnocentric religious myth the Parting of the Red Sea in the Jewish Old Testament Bible.

    How could the Jews (God s Chosen People) not get stuck in the mud at the bottom of the Red Sea? It s scientifically impossible.

    And what about the Egyptians who were not God s Chosen People?

    The Six Million Gassed Jews Holocaust story is true? Why? Because it is true – it s Biblical truth . Anybody that doubts this story is a religious heretic and unbeliever…

    A Holocaust denier

    Religious heretics get persecuted

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    • Replies: @Mulegino1
    Bingo! The "Holocaust" is a pseudo-religion. As such, it is the foundation of the liberal world of modernity, which includes NATO hegemony, the EU, what we call the "New World Order"" and the reign of the US dollar as reserve currency. It is also the most lucrative extortion racket in history, as it involves entire nations in its ever expanding net of "guilt reparations."

    As a pseudo-religion, it depends upon faith and authoritative pronouncements, not facts or empirical evidence. It has its own high priests (Eli Wiesel, Simon Wiesenthal); its own martyrs (Anne Frank et al) its own temples - Simon Wiesenthal Center, Museum of Tolerance, etc; its saints - the sacrosanct "survivors" and its devils and demons, e.g., Hitler, Himmler, the ubiquitous Mengele, etc. Its entire foundation is upon absurd, ridiculous and physically impossible claims, since the pseudo-religion in question eschews supernatural causality.

    Christians believe in Christ's Resurrection, but they acknowledge that their belief is faith based and not empirically based and that this unique event was due to a miracle caused by God. On the other hand, the "Holocaust" religion expects - in fact, demands- that people accept the fact that the laws of physics and common sense were suspended in 6 discrete locations over a period of 4 years or so, but they can only invoke very vague causes like "the German Method" and "unique evil." The legend of the 6 million is the greatest "blood libel" in the history of mankind.

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  • “Beef the might have” has fallen silent on my question…

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Sorry, what question?
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  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    Doubtless a great many Polish Jews died during the war, but keep in mind the Polish name change decree of 1946, that permitted anyone to change their name legally, no questions asked. Presumably this law was motivated to obscure the number of Jews who comprised the post-war Communist government, but it seems likely many Holocaust “survivors” availed themselves of it as well.

    In post WWII Poland many Jews joined new pro Soviet regime and many collaborated in state power apparatus. Then there were emigrations in several waves. Still the numbers of Jews after WWII in Poland is around 300,000 which is 10% what it was before the war. It is possible that the number is too small.

    Yes, I read that names were changed though they did not fool many but what is important this applied to already assimilated Jews who often survived because they could hide among the so called “Aryan” population or they survived in the Soviet Union. Majority of Jews before WWII were unassimilated, they did not speak Polish, they did not have Polish, Ukrainians or Belarusian friends or even acquaintances as often they lived in virtually 100% Jewish towns and villages, they were strict orthodox and Hassidim. These Jews vanished. They certainly could not vanish because of name changes.

    I repeat my first point: there is no Holocaust denial or even challenge to most points of the official narrative in Eastern Europe and there is good reason for it. People there had the first hand knowledge what was happening to the Jews and they had first hand knowledge of the landscape after the WWII that was completely devoid of Jews. However the stories of gas chambers, I think, did not exist during the WWII and Auschwitz was not seen as an extermination camp but as vast archipelago of labor camps and a prison camp in the very industrial part of Poland that was out of reach of Allied bombers till late 1943. In Silesia there were many families who had relatives who did time in Auschwitz including those who were released during the WWII because they finished their sentences. People talked. There were rumors but no rumors of extermination via gas chambers. Still after WWII people there accepted the gas chambers narrative.

    What happened to Jews who were first kept in ghettos and then in 1942 and 1943 they started to be evacuated to various places like Treblinka, Belzec,..? We do not know what exactly has happened there. But we know that at least 500,000 Jews of Warsaw Ghetto did not survive and there were hundreds of towns that had their ghettos created by Germans and at some point the ghettos were liquidated. The Jews were take out and never returned.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Fair enough re. the unassimilated nature of the Polish Jews. I am still not clear on your point, though? You acknowledge the official narrative is largely false, how is it relevant how many Eastern European revisionists there are? (FWIW I would not be surprised if many of the Jews sent through the AR camps did indeed die somewhere else in the SU, but there is little evidence they were gassed, buried, disinterred, and burned by the millions at those camps, as the official story holds.)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @utu
    There are no Holocaust deniers in Eastern Europe. Nobody questions the fact that Jewish communities were destroyed completely. In Poland 3 million Jews lived before WWII. There were villages and towns that were 80% Jewish. Jews "vanished" and they have not returned after the WWII. These Jews did not reappear in Israel or the US because they died. Officially it is estimated that 10% of Polish Jews survived. It is possible that the number is too low but there is no question that the vast majority of Jews in Eastern Europe (Poland, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Ukraine, Baltic States) was destroyed.

    Doubtless a great many Polish Jews died during the war, but keep in mind the Polish name change decree of 1946, that permitted anyone to change their name legally, no questions asked. Presumably this law was motivated to obscure the number of Jews who comprised the post-war Communist government, but it seems likely many Holocaust “survivors” availed themselves of it as well.

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    • Replies: @utu
    In post WWII Poland many Jews joined new pro Soviet regime and many collaborated in state power apparatus. Then there were emigrations in several waves. Still the numbers of Jews after WWII in Poland is around 300,000 which is 10% what it was before the war. It is possible that the number is too small.

    Yes, I read that names were changed though they did not fool many but what is important this applied to already assimilated Jews who often survived because they could hide among the so called "Aryan" population or they survived in the Soviet Union. Majority of Jews before WWII were unassimilated, they did not speak Polish, they did not have Polish, Ukrainians or Belarusian friends or even acquaintances as often they lived in virtually 100% Jewish towns and villages, they were strict orthodox and Hassidim. These Jews vanished. They certainly could not vanish because of name changes.

    I repeat my first point: there is no Holocaust denial or even challenge to most points of the official narrative in Eastern Europe and there is good reason for it. People there had the first hand knowledge what was happening to the Jews and they had first hand knowledge of the landscape after the WWII that was completely devoid of Jews. However the stories of gas chambers, I think, did not exist during the WWII and Auschwitz was not seen as an extermination camp but as vast archipelago of labor camps and a prison camp in the very industrial part of Poland that was out of reach of Allied bombers till late 1943. In Silesia there were many families who had relatives who did time in Auschwitz including those who were released during the WWII because they finished their sentences. People talked. There were rumors but no rumors of extermination via gas chambers. Still after WWII people there accepted the gas chambers narrative.

    What happened to Jews who were first kept in ghettos and then in 1942 and 1943 they started to be evacuated to various places like Treblinka, Belzec,..? We do not know what exactly has happened there. But we know that at least 500,000 Jews of Warsaw Ghetto did not survive and there were hundreds of towns that had their ghettos created by Germans and at some point the ghettos were liquidated. The Jews were take out and never returned.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Svigor

    I have no idea. I know I’ve never seen a blueprint or diagram of a gas chamber. I’ve never seen a shred of forensic evidence of one, or a photo of the mechanisms of one, or heard a plausible explanation of how they worked, or even had it explained to me how gas chambers as a method of extermination even make sense; there were far cleaner, safer, quicker, and cheaper methods available.
     
    Really the whole narrative makes little sense. Even if you accept the gas chamber narrative; why keep the method of extermination within a work camp? Wouldn't sort of undermine the camp's efficiency as a work camp? Wouldn't it be better to round up the people marked for death and simply "disappear" them (from the point of view of other internees) by walking them out, ostensibly to, say, move them to another camp?

    And don't get me started on how silly it is that the supposed gas chambers were perfectly disguised as showers, right down to the breakable windows and wooden doors. That's just eye-rollingly bad.

    The whole thing is a murder mystery writ large. It's easy to sell people on mysteries, and I think that's how to sell holocaust heterodoxy; appeal to people's inner detective.

    Not to mention that the means of gassing at Auschwitz were completely different from those said to be employed at the Reinhard camps (Treblinka et al.), neither of which were particularly efficient for the claimed task.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Holocaust deniers deny that Germans found efficient ways to kill jews, but have zero problem with the 3-3.5 million soviet POWs dying of exposure, malnutrition, and disease. So the jews were treated BETTER than soviets? I would rather be gassed immediatly than starved.

    Is the argument “the nazis cared more for jews than soviet POWs?” I call bullshit on that.

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    it's my understanding the Soviet POWs starved because there was no food available, & the numbers of surrendering Soviet troops was so large they could not be accommodated.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @TomSchmidt
    What is "your money?" A ledger on a computer somewhere whose value is not under your control. It can be arbitrarily set at the whims of the issuer. If it is gold and sliver coins, it can also be seized.

    Face it, it's "their money." They encourage you to use it so they can rake off value via inflation and taxes.

    They encourage you to use it so they can rake off value via inflation

    That is not logical. Would you keep you money in your mattress to fight inflation this way? Or even better, if you really want to hurt THEM burn money right after you get it so THEY will not get it back.

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    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    Would you keep you money in your mattress to fight inflation
    Some people hold hard assets, like gold, to keep from having the value of their money taken by inflation. It's not possible to steal value from gold directly by inflation; you have to either seize it via an order, as FDR executed, or slap onerous capital gains taxes on it when people sell.

    Is there anything not logical in my assertion that I do not control the value of the asset we call the US Dollar? Do I in fact control that asset? Who DOES control that asset?

    Now, there's a leap in my logic, perhaps: that someone who sets the value of an asset that I own will depreciate that asset so as to "buy" it back from me at a lower price, when I exchange that asset (money) for other goods. Surely no asset holder would do that?

    if you really want to hurt THEM burn money right after you get it so THEY will not get it back
    I don't need to burn my dollars and would do no such thing. I merely point out that the value of the dollar is not under my control (or the market's) but it IS under the control of the suppliers of "dollars." They are slowly "burning" that value.

    My point to the original commenter: you cannot consider something "yours" if someone else has possession of the means to deprive you of the value of it the way that dollar issuers can do to dollars.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @anarchyst
    If a country were hell-bent on genocide, WHY WOULD THEY KEEP RECORDS?? WHY would they build “camps” hundreds (if not thousands) of miles away with sanitary facilities, housing, recreational, medical and other ancillary facilities. Would it not have been easier to just “eliminate” them without going through all of this trouble? The jewish communist Bolsheviks did just that with the non-communist civilian populations of the conquered countries in the communist orbit.
    Something BIG “stinks” in this whole jewish“holocaust ™” deal. It is no secret that jewish Zionists made “deals” with the Nazis in order to make life “uncomfortable” for jewish Germans.
    The establishment of a “homeland” was a Zionist “dream” since the 1800s. What better way to encourage “emigration” to a strange land than to make things difficult for the “cream of German society” (jews)?? The TRUTH about the so-called jewish “holocaust ™” is out . . .
    The so-called jewish “holocaust ™” has been turned into a de-facto “religion” in which no deviation from orthodoxy is permitted. In fact, in most European countries, independent investigation into
    jewish “holocaust ™” truths is strictly forbidden under pain of fines and imprisonment. In the USA, things are not quite as bad, only job loss and personal and professional destruction at the hands of those of the “tribe” that FEAR the real truth of the jewish “holocaust ™” being exposed is evident.
    The truth about this minor event in human history will change much of the world’s perception about those that are using this event as a “cash cow” that “keeps on giving”. . . “there’s NO business like “SHOAH business”.
    Jewish complicity in this event is carefully “covered up”.
    It is curious to note that jewish interests will hunt down and imprison a 90 plus year-old German “camp guard” while looking the other way when their “own kind” was involved in truly brutal actions. Camp “capos” and “sonderkommandos” (who were primarily jewish) come to mind. Not one of these jewish “collaborators” has been brought to justice. Iguess blood is thicker than water. For truly brutal jewish butchers, look up Bela Kuhn and Kaganovich...
    A good example of present-day censorship isthe fate that awaits those that dare question “official” jewish “holocaust”orthodoxy. Most European countries have criminalized ANY line of thought that deviates from the “official” jewish “holocaust” story. WHY?? In fact, TRUTH is no defense when it comes to “all things holocaust”. A 79-year-old German grandmother is incarcerated for questioning the "holocaust ™".
    Ask noted WW2 researcher David Irving, who was forced to recant TRUTH in order to avoid punishment. . .
    In fact, TRUTH cannot be entered into evidence if it contradicts the "official "holocaust ™" orthodoxy. Every "kangaroo court" that prosecutes "holocaust ™" skeptics and truth-seekers has ruled that evidence that counters the falsehoods in the "holocaust ™" story cannot be introduced into evidence.
    If people only knew of the planning that took place (among those of the “chosen”) to engineer the jewish “holocaust”, there would be a pogrom of massive size. You see, the jewish “holocaust” was
    necessary in order to force the establishment of a jewish state. In this case, the ENDS justified the MEANS. There have been many “holocausts” of much greater misery throughout human history, yet the jewish “holocaust” is the only one that counts . . .
    Many jews will never be satisfied with knowing that those that commit evil deeds on earth in this lifetime will pay
    for it in the next life . . . they have taken vengeance from the Creator and appointed themselves the exacter of vengeance (in contradiction to mosaic law but not their anti-gentile talmud).
    Many jews are vengeful people that will never pass up a chance to “make a buck” by screwing a gentile (goyim) out of money or property. jews were hated in Germany for taking advantage of the non-jew Germans between the two world wars. The average German did not have a pot to piss in while his wealthy jewish neighbor was trading food for land . . . taking advantage of the jewish bankster situation in Germany.
    Look at the “commercialization” of the so-called jewish “holocaust ™” while the much larger communist (true) holocaust is conveniently forgotten. To assure a continuing supply of jewish “holocaust ™” “survivors”, jews are tattooing their ATM (oops, I mean “camp” numbers) on their children and grandchildren.
    Since "world jewry" (Judea) declared war on Germany in 1933 (yes, 1933), Germany had no choice but to complete the Zionist plan of marginalizing German jews (to say the least).. This fulfilled the Zionist plan of forcing German jews to emigrate to Palestine while making the world grant jews a “homeland” – Israel.
    Zionists have been predicting a jewish “homeland” for the last two-hundred years while predicting a “holocaust ™” of 6 million for the same amount of time. The ACTUAL number of non-combatant deaths in the European theater of operations is approximately 731,000, NOT 6 million (official International Red Cross figures). In fact, the International Red Cross had access to all of the camps and not once mentioned or noticed any "gas chambers"...
    Regarding that “holocaust ™” “showplace” Auschwitz, there are engineering inconsistencies in the design of the so-called “gas chambers”. The doors are not of a gas-tight design; it would have been impossible to retrieve the bodies, and there is no means to ventilate the rooms after the so-called “gassing” took place”. From an engineering standpoint, these are very serious errors that would have caused the deaths of the “operators” of these supposed “gas chambers”.
    American execution expert, Fred Leuchter travelled to Auschwitz, surreptitiously obtained samples from the purported “gas chambers”, had them tested and published his results. The absence of methylene blue in ALL of the samples, save one, was PROOF that the “gas chambers” did not exist. The one positive sample was taken from a room used to disinfect clothing.
    Mr. Leuchter was rewarded for his search for TRUTH by his professional and personal character assassination by those of the “tribe”. He lost all of his federal and state contracts, and was prosecuted under an obscure Massachusetts “law” for “practicing engineering without a license” – a law which had never been used before or since. . .
    It is no secret that after WW2, the Soviets attempted to “create” the “death camps” for propaganda purposes.
    The engineering inconsistencies proves that these “death camps” were recreated for communist propaganda purposes. Germans were excellent engineers, and as such, would not have made the engineering “mistakes” that are evident.
    Yes, there was extreme deprivation and suffering–many people perished. However, the prime cause of death was typhus. As allied bombings destroyed most of the infrastructure, typhus was at epidemic
    levels. THIS is what caused the massive amounts of human deaths . . .NOT gassing.
    When the Germans fled the camps, in advance of the allies, the camp occupants chose to go with the Germans rather than with the oncoming Soviet troops. THAT is telling...
    After the end of WW2, German civilians were interned. These German civilians were subject to much greater deprivation and suffering than the “occupants” of the “camps”. In fact, jews were controlling these camps, at the
    behest of the Allied forces, and were vicious in their treatment of those interned. In fact, the German civilians interned were defined as “disarmed enemy combatants” despite being civilians, so that Geneva Convention rules would not apply to them.
    In fact, it was JEWS that ran the internment camps after WW2. I guess vengeance was theirs, as the Germans made the jews WORK (manual labor in the camps) for the first time in their lives…

    There are no Holocaust deniers in Eastern Europe. Nobody questions the fact that Jewish communities were destroyed completely. In Poland 3 million Jews lived before WWII. There were villages and towns that were 80% Jewish. Jews “vanished” and they have not returned after the WWII. These Jews did not reappear in Israel or the US because they died. Officially it is estimated that 10% of Polish Jews survived. It is possible that the number is too low but there is no question that the vast majority of Jews in Eastern Europe (Poland, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Ukraine, Baltic States) was destroyed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Doubtless a great many Polish Jews died during the war, but keep in mind the Polish name change decree of 1946, that permitted anyone to change their name legally, no questions asked. Presumably this law was motivated to obscure the number of Jews who comprised the post-war Communist government, but it seems likely many Holocaust “survivors” availed themselves of it as well.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Wally
    A totalitarian communist just spoke

    My money is mine, not yours or the government's to steal.

    Give away your money if you like, move "losers" into your residence, no one is stopping you.

    What is “your money?” A ledger on a computer somewhere whose value is not under your control. It can be arbitrarily set at the whims of the issuer. If it is gold and sliver coins, it can also be seized.

    Face it, it’s “their money.” They encourage you to use it so they can rake off value via inflation and taxes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    They encourage you to use it so they can rake off value via inflation

    That is not logical. Would you keep you money in your mattress to fight inflation this way? Or even better, if you really want to hurt THEM burn money right after you get it so THEY will not get it back.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • If a country were hell-bent on genocide, WHY WOULD THEY KEEP RECORDS?? WHY would they build “camps” hundreds (if not thousands) of miles away with sanitary facilities, housing, recreational, medical and other ancillary facilities. Would it not have been easier to just “eliminate” them without going through all of this trouble? The jewish communist Bolsheviks did just that with the non-communist civilian populations of the conquered countries in the communist orbit.
    Something BIG “stinks” in this whole jewish“holocaust ™” deal. It is no secret that jewish Zionists made “deals” with the Nazis in order to make life “uncomfortable” for jewish Germans.
    The establishment of a “homeland” was a Zionist “dream” since the 1800s. What better way to encourage “emigration” to a strange land than to make things difficult for the “cream of German society” (jews)?? The TRUTH about the so-called jewish “holocaust ™” is out . . .
    The so-called jewish “holocaust ™” has been turned into a de-facto “religion” in which no deviation from orthodoxy is permitted. In fact, in most European countries, independent investigation into
    jewish “holocaust ™” truths is strictly forbidden under pain of fines and imprisonment. In the USA, things are not quite as bad, only job loss and personal and professional destruction at the hands of those of the “tribe” that FEAR the real truth of the jewish “holocaust ™” being exposed is evident.
    The truth about this minor event in human history will change much of the world’s perception about those that are using this event as a “cash cow” that “keeps on giving”. . . “there’s NO business like “SHOAH business”.
    Jewish complicity in this event is carefully “covered up”.
    It is curious to note that jewish interests will hunt down and imprison a 90 plus year-old German “camp guard” while looking the other way when their “own kind” was involved in truly brutal actions. Camp “capos” and “sonderkommandos” (who were primarily jewish) come to mind. Not one of these jewish “collaborators” has been brought to justice. Iguess blood is thicker than water. For truly brutal jewish butchers, look up Bela Kuhn and Kaganovich…
    A good example of present-day censorship isthe fate that awaits those that dare question “official” jewish “holocaust”orthodoxy. Most European countries have criminalized ANY line of thought that deviates from the “official” jewish “holocaust” story. WHY?? In fact, TRUTH is no defense when it comes to “all things holocaust”. A 79-year-old German grandmother is incarcerated for questioning the “holocaust ™”.
    Ask noted WW2 researcher David Irving, who was forced to recant TRUTH in order to avoid punishment. . .
    In fact, TRUTH cannot be entered into evidence if it contradicts the “official “holocaust ™” orthodoxy. Every “kangaroo court” that prosecutes “holocaust ™” skeptics and truth-seekers has ruled that evidence that counters the falsehoods in the “holocaust ™” story cannot be introduced into evidence.
    If people only knew of the planning that took place (among those of the “chosen”) to engineer the jewish “holocaust”, there would be a pogrom of massive size. You see, the jewish “holocaust” was
    necessary in order to force the establishment of a jewish state. In this case, the ENDS justified the MEANS. There have been many “holocausts” of much greater misery throughout human history, yet the jewish “holocaust” is the only one that counts . . .
    Many jews will never be satisfied with knowing that those that commit evil deeds on earth in this lifetime will pay
    for it in the next life . . . they have taken vengeance from the Creator and appointed themselves the exacter of vengeance (in contradiction to mosaic law but not their anti-gentile talmud).
    Many jews are vengeful people that will never pass up a chance to “make a buck” by screwing a gentile (goyim) out of money or property. jews were hated in Germany for taking advantage of the non-jew Germans between the two world wars. The average German did not have a pot to piss in while his wealthy jewish neighbor was trading food for land . . . taking advantage of the jewish bankster situation in Germany.
    Look at the “commercialization” of the so-called jewish “holocaust ™” while the much larger communist (true) holocaust is conveniently forgotten. To assure a continuing supply of jewish “holocaust ™” “survivors”, jews are tattooing their ATM (oops, I mean “camp” numbers) on their children and grandchildren.
    Since “world jewry” (Judea) declared war on Germany in 1933 (yes, 1933), Germany had no choice but to complete the Zionist plan of marginalizing German jews (to say the least).. This fulfilled the Zionist plan of forcing German jews to emigrate to Palestine while making the world grant jews a “homeland” – Israel.
    Zionists have been predicting a jewish “homeland” for the last two-hundred years while predicting a “holocaust ™” of 6 million for the same amount of time. The ACTUAL number of non-combatant deaths in the European theater of operations is approximately 731,000, NOT 6 million (official International Red Cross figures). In fact, the International Red Cross had access to all of the camps and not once mentioned or noticed any “gas chambers”…
    Regarding that “holocaust ™” “showplace” Auschwitz, there are engineering inconsistencies in the design of the so-called “gas chambers”. The doors are not of a gas-tight design; it would have been impossible to retrieve the bodies, and there is no means to ventilate the rooms after the so-called “gassing” took place”. From an engineering standpoint, these are very serious errors that would have caused the deaths of the “operators” of these supposed “gas chambers”.
    American execution expert, Fred Leuchter travelled to Auschwitz, surreptitiously obtained samples from the purported “gas chambers”, had them tested and published his results. The absence of methylene blue in ALL of the samples, save one, was PROOF that the “gas chambers” did not exist. The one positive sample was taken from a room used to disinfect clothing.
    Mr. Leuchter was rewarded for his search for TRUTH by his professional and personal character assassination by those of the “tribe”. He lost all of his federal and state contracts, and was prosecuted under an obscure Massachusetts “law” for “practicing engineering without a license” – a law which had never been used before or since. . .
    It is no secret that after WW2, the Soviets attempted to “create” the “death camps” for propaganda purposes.
    The engineering inconsistencies proves that these “death camps” were recreated for communist propaganda purposes. Germans were excellent engineers, and as such, would not have made the engineering “mistakes” that are evident.
    Yes, there was extreme deprivation and suffering–many people perished. However, the prime cause of death was typhus. As allied bombings destroyed most of the infrastructure, typhus was at epidemic
    levels. THIS is what caused the massive amounts of human deaths . . .NOT gassing.
    When the Germans fled the camps, in advance of the allies, the camp occupants chose to go with the Germans rather than with the oncoming Soviet troops. THAT is telling…
    After the end of WW2, German civilians were interned. These German civilians were subject to much greater deprivation and suffering than the “occupants” of the “camps”. In fact, jews were controlling these camps, at the
    behest of the Allied forces, and were vicious in their treatment of those interned. In fact, the German civilians interned were defined as “disarmed enemy combatants” despite being civilians, so that Geneva Convention rules would not apply to them.
    In fact, it was JEWS that ran the internment camps after WW2. I guess vengeance was theirs, as the Germans made the jews WORK (manual labor in the camps) for the first time in their lives…

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    • Replies: @utu
    There are no Holocaust deniers in Eastern Europe. Nobody questions the fact that Jewish communities were destroyed completely. In Poland 3 million Jews lived before WWII. There were villages and towns that were 80% Jewish. Jews "vanished" and they have not returned after the WWII. These Jews did not reappear in Israel or the US because they died. Officially it is estimated that 10% of Polish Jews survived. It is possible that the number is too low but there is no question that the vast majority of Jews in Eastern Europe (Poland, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Ukraine, Baltic States) was destroyed.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @anonymous
    Wally's Mossad (even Mossad has 49% below average, and they have to do something with 'em).

    he sure as hell is not doing any good for authentic revisionists.

    I am not sure about Mossad but clearly Wally is useless and possible harmful to the cause of historical revisionism. I would have him removed long time ago. How come Rehmat was removed (I presume) and Wally is still here? Rehmat comments covered large body of knowledge and often were a propos while Wally is automaton. A bot could do a better job than him.

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    • Replies: @Wally
    Like the typical Zionist fraud, you dodge all the points I made. Telling.

    "Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish "holocaust" and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the "survivors"? Because it "dishonors the dead"? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble."
    - Gerard Menuhin / Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist
     
    BTW, thanks for opportunity to post more here. LOL

    It's panic time in Tel Aviv.

    www.codoh.com
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • [In comments, allcaps is shouting. Stop shouting.]

    PEACE IN…
    I WOULD THINK IT PAST TIME FOR SOME REAL OFFENSIVE MOVES TO EXPOSE AND ELIMINATE THE TALMUDIST PROBLEM FROM OUR WORLD COMMUNITY – PERIOD!

    The devil earth agents of Satan are entrenched but can be defeated with full exposure of TRUTH about their history as Satan’s earth agent devils and how their evil presence has caused such damning harm to our lives and destiny. It’s now or never that we do what must be done.
    PEACE IN…PEACE OUT…

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I have tested the basic method I outline. The agnostic/curious/interested/rigorous/emotionally detached method is interesting and persuasive because it flips the script; instead of trying to persuade believers and advocates of the orthodox narrative, it forces them to try to persuade me. I am then in a position to pass judgment on what is relevant, and what is not, what is admissible evidence, and what is not, etc. E.g., no, pictures of pits filled with emaciated corpses are not evidence of the systematic extermination of 6m*. It is instructive for normies to watch this kind of conversation play out.

    And at the end of it all, you are simply an agnostic. You are neither a holocaust believer, nor a holocaust denier. In fact, when people accuse you of being a holocaust denier for simply being an agnostic, they come out looking bad, not you.

    *: (emaciated corpses are themselves evidence against an extermination plan; waiting for people to starve to death is possibly the stupidest extermination plan imaginable, heavily implies the goal was other than extermination).

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I have no idea. I know I’ve never seen a blueprint or diagram of a gas chamber. I’ve never seen a shred of forensic evidence of one, or a photo of the mechanisms of one, or heard a plausible explanation of how they worked, or even had it explained to me how gas chambers as a method of extermination even make sense; there were far cleaner, safer, quicker, and cheaper methods available.

    Really the whole narrative makes little sense. Even if you accept the gas chamber narrative; why keep the method of extermination within a work camp? Wouldn’t sort of undermine the camp’s efficiency as a work camp? Wouldn’t it be better to round up the people marked for death and simply “disappear” them (from the point of view of other internees) by walking them out, ostensibly to, say, move them to another camp?

    And don’t get me started on how silly it is that the supposed gas chambers were perfectly disguised as showers, right down to the breakable windows and wooden doors. That’s just eye-rollingly bad.

    The whole thing is a murder mystery writ large. It’s easy to sell people on mysteries, and I think that’s how to sell holocaust heterodoxy; appeal to people’s inner detective.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Not to mention that the means of gassing at Auschwitz were completely different from those said to be employed at the Reinhard camps (Treblinka et al.), neither of which were particularly efficient for the claimed task.
    , @Jaye ryan
    We at OD think the Six Million Gassed Jews Holocaust story is best viewed as another ethnocentric Jewish, Judeo Christian religious myth. This myth functions exactly the same way as that other ethnocentric religious myth the Parting of the Red Sea in the Jewish Old Testament Bible.

    How could the Jews (God s Chosen People) not get stuck in the mud at the bottom of the Red Sea? It s scientifically impossible.

    And what about the Egyptians who were not God s Chosen People?

    The Six Million Gassed Jews Holocaust story is true? Why? Because it is true - it s Biblical truth . Anybody that doubts this story is a religious heretic and unbeliever...

    A Holocaust denier

    Religious heretics get persecuted
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  • I believe in science over religion. Simple. And you?

    Very much so. But a big part of science is not being certain, when you don’t have good reason to be.

    I’m fairly certain that orthodox historians have not provided forensic evidence of 12m (6m Jewish) corpses as a result of the shoah. That is the starting point of my holocaust heterodoxy. But I phrase it as a question: “where is the forensic evidence? If it exists, present it.” Same goes for gas chambers, etc. This is a scientifically rigorous approach, because it is impossible to prove a negative. One may assert that there is no Santa Claus, but one cannot prove it. The burden of proof is on the person asserting there is a Santa Claus, for precisely this reason.

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    You can't prove a negative. The positive assertion is that Santa Claus existed. Santa Claus is no other than:
    "Saint Nicholas (Greek: Ἅγιος Νικόλαος, Hágios Nikólaos, Latin: Sanctus Nicolaus); (15 March 270 – 6 December 343) also called Nikolaos of Myra, a historic 4th-century Christian saint and Greek[5] Bishop of Myra, in Asia Minor (modern-day Demre, Turkey). Because of the many miracles attributed to his intercession, he is also known as Nikolaos the Wonderworker (Νικόλαος ὁ Θαυματουργός, Nikólaos ho Thaumaturgós). His reputation evolved among the faithful, as was common for early Christian saints, and his legendary habit of secret gift-giving gave rise to the traditional model of Santa Claus through Sinterklaas.
    The historical Saint Nicholas is commemorated and revered among far more Christian sects than just Orthodox Christians. The Anglican, Lutheran, and Catholic Churches revere him. In addition, some Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, and other Reformed churches have been named in honor of Saint Nicholas. Saint Nicholas is the patron saint of sailors, merchants, archers, repentant thieves, children, brewers, pawnbrokers and students in various cities and countries around Europe.
    His earthly remains are kept in a crypt in Bari. In the summer of 2005, the report of measurements of the bones was sent to a forensic laboratory in England. The review of the data revealed that the historical Saint Nicholas was 5'6" in height and had a broken nose. The facial reconstruction was produced by Dr. Caroline Wilkinson at the University of Manchester and was shown on a BBC2 TV program The Real Face of Santa and it matches the traditional icon.
    It is said that in Myra the relics of Saint Nicholas each year exuded a clear watery liquid which smells like rose water, called manna (or myrrh), which is believed by the faithful to possess miraculous powers. After the relics were brought to Bari, they continued to do so, much to the joy of the new owners. Vials of myrrh from his relics have been taken all over the world for centuries, and can still be obtained from his church in Bari. Even up to the present day, a flask of manna is extracted from the tomb of Saint Nicholas every year on 6 December (the Saint's feast day) by the clergy of the basilica. The myrrh is collected from a sarcophagus which is located in the basilica vault and could be obtained in the shop nearby..."

    So, it is proven beyond reasonable doubt.
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  • Wally, I agree with your assessment of the general Jewish character, but arguing with Jews is a small part of the picture, is it not? I would be content with the rest of the world revising their opinions of the holocaust narrative to reflect facts and logic, and Jews carrying on believing whatever they like. I think the main part of holocaust heterodoxy should be aimed at persuading non-Jews, not Jews. Which is, thankfully, a much more attainable goal.

    America has huge numbers of people in city jails, county jails and state and federal prisons. They don’t die of easily prevented communicable diseases. As far as I know, there have never been any typhus, typhoid or cholera epidemics in the Anerican prison system except in the POW camps during the civil war.

    If America were fighting a two-front war vs bigger countries, being carpet-bombed, and facing food shortages, etc., they might. Even of typhus.

    For example, would it be illegal to change the sacred 6M number to 5M?

    It would certainly be holocaust denial, and thus utter BS. ;)

    Being a lesbian or gay is sooo outdated. In a few years we will hear that Saint Anne the Virgin martyr was really transgender.

    New edition! New passages discovered! Hot off the presses!

    Jews were sent to concentration and labor camps. Were there gas chambers? Probably not.

    I have no idea. I know I’ve never seen a blueprint or diagram of a gas chamber. I’ve never seen a shred of forensic evidence of one, or a photo of the mechanisms of one, or heard a plausible explanation of how they worked, or even had it explained to me how gas chambers as a method of extermination even make sense; there were far cleaner, safer, quicker, and cheaper methods available.

    Hello,

    Think repetitive promotions. Say what you will, but they work, the message gets in there.

    I agree, repetition and brevity are probably the main keys to persuasion. But, this is text on an internet forum. This medium hasn’t been tested to the extent that more traditional promotion. The rules aren’t written in stone. I think [boilerplate]+[teaser] is a good formula for this medium.

    I do know that links need a teaser. When you drop a link these days, you need to give people a reason to click it. A tidbit, if you will.

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  • So now Anne Frank didn’t die at all? Don’t give me some bullshit about the Nazis not killing Anne Frank. She should have never been in a concentration camp. That she died in one is the Nazis’ fault. Period.

    It’s no wonder people hate you.

    “It’s no wonder Jews hate you; you go around telling the goyim that Anne Frank died of typhus, in an infirmary!”

    I mean let’s be honest, most people, jew and non-jew alike, assume Frank was gassed, but that’s not even what the orthodox narrative says. It’s a very interesting tidbit; one of my favorites. Frankly, I suppose her entire diary is interesting; is it filled with her tales of productive manual labor for the Germans? If not, why was she fed, moved from one camp to another, sent to infirmaries, etc., etc., etc?

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  • @NicDonin
    Why hasn't an English translation of Solzhenitsy's 'Two Hundred Years Together' been published?

    A translation is underway and selected chapters were available on Kevin McDonald’s website last time I checked (Occidental Observer).

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  • @Verymuchalive
    We've had the odd disagreement, but on general principles, I can't agree with you more, as in this case.
    Amazon is a beneficiary of Deep State policy. During the Reagan Era about 50 c0mpanies owned 90% of outlets, now its 6. This was greatly facilitated by Clinton's Telecommunications Act 1996.
    Amazon is a CIA contractor, and its rise has been aided by the CIA and other Deep State agencies.
    T he same is true of Google and Facebook and others. In return, these oligopolists do what these agencies want. As in this case.
    Obviously, the correct legal solution is the reinstatement of proper competition laws and the drastic reformation of Deep State agencies, indeed abolition of whole agencies ( CIA, ATF etc). I don't need to tell you how difficult this will be to achieve.
    Long term, the emergence of competitors which will respect Freedom of Expression must be the aim. In the short term, avoidance, as far as possible, of these oligopolists is surely the best policy. I personally have never used Amazon or Facebook and use Google as little as possible.

    We’ve had the odd disagreement, but on general principles, I can’t agree with you more, as in this case.

    Disagreements are to be expected and should not be a problem, although as far as I can recall we’ve probably agreed as much as disagreed in general.

    However, some issues should require a united response, one of them being on the need to resist the ongoing suppression of dissent by the left and the lobbies that exploit it.

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  • @Miro23

    It is of course exactly that – hypocrisy.

    And not the arguably good sort, either (the “tribute vice pays to virtue”). It is the profoundly nasty and corrupting, cynically dishonest sort that involves people claiming virtues that they are in fact knowingly acting against and actively undermining in the public sphere, for their own political and material benefit.
     
    This could also be an accurate description of the Bolsheviks, with all their blah about class enemies, exploitation, everyone equal etc., while they moved into St Petersburg´s aristocratic mansions and bought themselves Rolls Royces (Lenin had nine in his garage).

    I think cynical hypocrisy is rather built into the Marxist world-view.

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  • In Germany they held a big Parthenon of BANNED BOOKS in September 2017 and at the close on dismantling it gave one copy of each book to the spectators/audience. “THE PARTHENON OF BOOKS – get your own book – On Saturday, September 9, Artist Marta Minujín completed the *Parthenon of Books* by adding the last title to the construction. Today, Sunday, September 10, at 10 am, Minujín will start redistributing the books to the public. The Parthenon will be dismantled bit by bit until the end of the exhibition. Visitors are invited today to collect their own book directly from the Parthenon. Minujín will give a short speech at 12pm, noon.” Link: https://www.facebook.com/documenta14/photos/pcb.891595914340507/891594091007356/?type=3&theater

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