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    Post updated, 9/23/15 9/22/15. See below! This will be the first column in a series on the broad human behavioral dimension dubbed "clannishness" by HBD Chick. I've talked quite about clannishness here, and of course it is the main theme of HBD Chick's blog. For background, see: start here | hbd chick clannishness defined |...
  • […] Clannishness – the Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain […]

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  • Just as mainstream wisdom on human psychology and evolution is filled with heaps of rubbish (rubbish which I've covered here extensively – see 200 Blog Posts – Everything You Need to Know (To Start)), the space of dissenting voices on this matter is also filled with its own share of rubbish – and worse. I've...
  • @Elementarsatz
    [Apologies for my English, it is not my mother tongue. Also, this post is all over the place.]

    "The fitness impact to a White man’s genes if his daughter marries a Black man is the same as if she married an unrelated White man (again, fitness from gene function notwithstanding)."

    This is reductionist and does not take into account that a national character exists. Descriptions of peoples ("Völker") have been stable throughout history, as german anthropologist Andreas Vonderach has shown in his work "Völkerpsychologie".

    (Arabs, for example, were hot-tempered and prone to violence even during ancient times, and recent findings have shown that 15.6% (!!) of Saudis have the genotype MAOA-2R. This is clear evidence for what german anthropologists call "Siebung". Also, the Hijab was known in the Middle East long before Islam started to appear, hinting to a high sexual drive of the muslim population living there. This is inline with our findings regarding "rapefugees" who are predominantly from these countries.)

    This means that on average, people of a Volk are embodying certain characteristics. Germans, for example, have been known throughout history for their chastity (way back to the German barbarians), their proclivity to tinker; their technical ability (even during the middle ages, as Montaigne noted), their tendency to being drawn to deep metaphysical speculation, their reflective nature (think of the German idealist philosophers), their drive to get behind "the nature of things", their faustian character and so on. A short essay of Vonderach deals with what defines being german objectively, from an anthropologist's standpoint: [0]. In this piece he also cites the fact that 64.4% of Germans can be classified as ethnic Germans by their genetic traits, the other 35.6% overlap with neighbouring states.

    Germany is a good example actually: Armin Mohler was perplexed that a country as culturally heterogenous as Germany was so staunchly united during WWII. And one of the reasons is the percentage cited above: most Germans looked alike and acted alike due to their shared tempereament and characteristics as well as their national character. If a national character did not exist, nationalism would be impossible. Vonderach goes into further detail regarding Germany's national character in his study "Die Deutschen Regionalcharaktere", where he makes the case that even different regional characters exist in Germany -- unfortunately, it's out of print.

    There is little to no reason for Europe to become "multicultural", or, as is rather the case, to become an ethno-cultural wasteland like the US, something that would more honestly be called "Rassamassa". And there is all reason for Europeans to now become nationalists defending the their people and culture against globalist One World lunatics. As Vox Day writes -- who does not get tired (rightly so) of pointing out that civic nationalism is false -- Europe is in better shape because people over here have unique identitarian cultures and see themselves as a distinct people, meaning that there are still left-overs of the solidarity of the different "Völker" that created the base for the European welfare states. We see this especially in eastern Europe, but the French are strong in this regard too; it was a Renaud Camus who coined the term "The Great Replacement", and it was the French who have been the first Identitarians. There is a reason that many Europeans don't get along, like the Germans and the Poles, or the Poles and the Russians, or the French and the Germans. It's because they are a distinct people with a distinct history and culture. Vonderach's magnum opus "Anthropologie Europas" deals precisley with this topic: the diveristy of the European peoples.

    Since it's already a culture shock for someone "immigrating" from northern Germany to the south of Germany, how would it ever be possible for someone from several thousand kilometers away to immigrate? It is impossible. It's only possible if your whole culture is based on cheap consumerism and tied together by a fat and expensive welfare state (which is basically bribing all those different non-European ethnicities in western Europe).

    The quote I used at the beginning of this post leads me to question the real motives of the blog author "JayMan". I gathered from reading that he is of mixed race, but lacks the objectivity a mixed race thinker like Theodore Beale brings to the table, because Beale understands that Europe is defined by distinct peoples, and that the current process of immigration and assimilation is a threat to the survival of Europe. I question the objecitivty precisley because the blog author also deals with Europe here, and, as written, Europe has no reason whatsoever to allow immigration. There has been Third World immigration to Germany only for the past 5 decades, it's nothing that can't be reversed, and polls show that the majority of Germans have been opposed to immigration during the 60's up to the present day. It's solely the wish of corrupt elites and economists who support this process of destruction. Every ethnic Italian has more right to Italy than anyone else on this planet; this is true for every country.

    I get the feeling that the author "JayMan" might indeed be sold on consumerism, and high culture is not really part of his life. That's fine, but then he must not use his influence to spread destructive ideas. He might not feel connected to a specific European culture, whereas I feel indebted to my Greco-Roman and Christian roots as well as to the vast canon of unique and high quality art, philosophy, classical music, literature and science that has been produced by Europeans; as a German, I feel especially connected to German culture, of course, and I have immersed myself in its culture for decades; few immigrants appreciate it. Again, consumerism. No matter if group selection is true or not, mass immigration and genetic assimilation would lead to the downfall of Europe and my culture. Again, if you support this, I question your motives. I question them especially since I've read posts by "JayMan" that are critical of mass immigration, and he is aware of the fate of the Portugese, as well as the Greeks and the southern Europeans, especially the Spanish. Up until several deaceds ago, central and northern Europe was spared non-European immigration, and due to this remaind wealthy and produced culture of high quality. The only immigrants that can be said to have had positive effects were the Ashkenazi Jews -- I will ignore the Culture of Critique for this post --, but you have to understand that they were only about .7% of the German population. And they were of high intelligence. That's the opposite of the Third World population western Europe is suffering from now.

    What I'm getting at is that the author of this blog post wants to paint being in favor of one's own culture, which includes one's own people, as right-wing extremists, as bigoted and as being on the wrong side of history. Europeans don't need to justify themselves if they vote for politicans who would limit or even completely disallow non-European immigration. In fact, the intergeneration contract forbids replacing your people, or initiating a process that would alter the demographics of your country severly. Even if we wanted to, we wouldn't be allowed to destroy the unique peoples and cultures of Europe. Mass immigration is not an act of nature, it can be stopped and reversed. And I hope Europeans start to wake up to reverse the damage that has been done -- but it might be too late already.

    The 16 points of the Alt Right that Vox Day wrote make this very clear, especially the last point. [1] We of the Alt Right support nationalists of every nation; but the Alt Right is against imperialism of any kind; it supports all nations becoming autonomous.

    I apologize for the length, but I want to provide those who visit this blog post with a saner perspective, and I want to make clear that defending your nation and opposing immigration of any kind is not a crime.

    [0]: http://sezession.de/37160/wir-selbst-anthropologisch.html
    [1]: https://voxday.blogspot.fr/2016/08/what-alt-right-is.html

    I want to provide those who visit this blog post with a saner perspective

    Before you can do any of that, you need to actually understand what I wrote. It doesn’t seem like you do.

    This entry is all about one thing, and one thing only: the existence of ethnic nepotism. That is, whether or not kin altruism led individuals to favor members of their own ethnic group over others. The answer of course is no. This is impossible, for the reasons stated within. All the rest of your talk about group characteristics and population replacement by immigration is completely tangential to this.

    “The fitness impact to a White man’s genes if his daughter marries a Black man is the same as if she married an unrelated White man (again, fitness from gene function notwithstanding).”

    This is reductionist

    Yes. This is a science blog. Reductionism is one of the key goals of science.

    and does not take into account that a national character exists.

    Nothing to do with it. See above. Read the statement again.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • [Apologies for my English, it is not my mother tongue. Also, this post is all over the place.]

    “The fitness impact to a White man’s genes if his daughter marries a Black man is the same as if she married an unrelated White man (again, fitness from gene function notwithstanding).”

    This is reductionist and does not take into account that a national character exists. Descriptions of peoples (“Völker”) have been stable throughout history, as german anthropologist Andreas Vonderach has shown in his work “Völkerpsychologie”.

    (Arabs, for example, were hot-tempered and prone to violence even during ancient times, and recent findings have shown that 15.6% (!!) of Saudis have the genotype MAOA-2R. This is clear evidence for what german anthropologists call “Siebung”. Also, the Hijab was known in the Middle East long before Islam started to appear, hinting to a high sexual drive of the muslim population living there. This is inline with our findings regarding “rapefugees” who are predominantly from these countries.)

    This means that on average, people of a Volk are embodying certain characteristics. Germans, for example, have been known throughout history for their chastity (way back to the German barbarians), their proclivity to tinker; their technical ability (even during the middle ages, as Montaigne noted), their tendency to being drawn to deep metaphysical speculation, their reflective nature (think of the German idealist philosophers), their drive to get behind “the nature of things”, their faustian character and so on. A short essay of Vonderach deals with what defines being german objectively, from an anthropologist’s standpoint: [0]. In this piece he also cites the fact that 64.4% of Germans can be classified as ethnic Germans by their genetic traits, the other 35.6% overlap with neighbouring states.

    Germany is a good example actually: Armin Mohler was perplexed that a country as culturally heterogenous as Germany was so staunchly united during WWII. And one of the reasons is the percentage cited above: most Germans looked alike and acted alike due to their shared tempereament and characteristics as well as their national character. If a national character did not exist, nationalism would be impossible. Vonderach goes into further detail regarding Germany’s national character in his study “Die Deutschen Regionalcharaktere”, where he makes the case that even different regional characters exist in Germany — unfortunately, it’s out of print.

    There is little to no reason for Europe to become “multicultural”, or, as is rather the case, to become an ethno-cultural wasteland like the US, something that would more honestly be called “Rassamassa”. And there is all reason for Europeans to now become nationalists defending the their people and culture against globalist One World lunatics. As Vox Day writes — who does not get tired (rightly so) of pointing out that civic nationalism is false — Europe is in better shape because people over here have unique identitarian cultures and see themselves as a distinct people, meaning that there are still left-overs of the solidarity of the different “Völker” that created the base for the European welfare states. We see this especially in eastern Europe, but the French are strong in this regard too; it was a Renaud Camus who coined the term “The Great Replacement”, and it was the French who have been the first Identitarians. There is a reason that many Europeans don’t get along, like the Germans and the Poles, or the Poles and the Russians, or the French and the Germans. It’s because they are a distinct people with a distinct history and culture. Vonderach’s magnum opus “Anthropologie Europas” deals precisley with this topic: the diveristy of the European peoples.

    Since it’s already a culture shock for someone “immigrating” from northern Germany to the south of Germany, how would it ever be possible for someone from several thousand kilometers away to immigrate? It is impossible. It’s only possible if your whole culture is based on cheap consumerism and tied together by a fat and expensive welfare state (which is basically bribing all those different non-European ethnicities in western Europe).

    The quote I used at the beginning of this post leads me to question the real motives of the blog author “JayMan”. I gathered from reading that he is of mixed race, but lacks the objectivity a mixed race thinker like Theodore Beale brings to the table, because Beale understands that Europe is defined by distinct peoples, and that the current process of immigration and assimilation is a threat to the survival of Europe. I question the objecitivty precisley because the blog author also deals with Europe here, and, as written, Europe has no reason whatsoever to allow immigration. There has been Third World immigration to Germany only for the past 5 decades, it’s nothing that can’t be reversed, and polls show that the majority of Germans have been opposed to immigration during the 60′s up to the present day. It’s solely the wish of corrupt elites and economists who support this process of destruction. Every ethnic Italian has more right to Italy than anyone else on this planet; this is true for every country.

    I get the feeling that the author “JayMan” might indeed be sold on consumerism, and high culture is not really part of his life. That’s fine, but then he must not use his influence to spread destructive ideas. He might not feel connected to a specific European culture, whereas I feel indebted to my Greco-Roman and Christian roots as well as to the vast canon of unique and high quality art, philosophy, classical music, literature and science that has been produced by Europeans; as a German, I feel especially connected to German culture, of course, and I have immersed myself in its culture for decades; few immigrants appreciate it. Again, consumerism. No matter if group selection is true or not, mass immigration and genetic assimilation would lead to the downfall of Europe and my culture. Again, if you support this, I question your motives. I question them especially since I’ve read posts by “JayMan” that are critical of mass immigration, and he is aware of the fate of the Portugese, as well as the Greeks and the southern Europeans, especially the Spanish. Up until several deaceds ago, central and northern Europe was spared non-European immigration, and due to this remaind wealthy and produced culture of high quality. The only immigrants that can be said to have had positive effects were the Ashkenazi Jews — I will ignore the Culture of Critique for this post –, but you have to understand that they were only about .7% of the German population. And they were of high intelligence. That’s the opposite of the Third World population western Europe is suffering from now.

    What I’m getting at is that the author of this blog post wants to paint being in favor of one’s own culture, which includes one’s own people, as right-wing extremists, as bigoted and as being on the wrong side of history. Europeans don’t need to justify themselves if they vote for politicans who would limit or even completely disallow non-European immigration. In fact, the intergeneration contract forbids replacing your people, or initiating a process that would alter the demographics of your country severly. Even if we wanted to, we wouldn’t be allowed to destroy the unique peoples and cultures of Europe. Mass immigration is not an act of nature, it can be stopped and reversed. And I hope Europeans start to wake up to reverse the damage that has been done — but it might be too late already.

    The 16 points of the Alt Right that Vox Day wrote make this very clear, especially the last point. [1] We of the Alt Right support nationalists of every nation; but the Alt Right is against imperialism of any kind; it supports all nations becoming autonomous.

    I apologize for the length, but I want to provide those who visit this blog post with a saner perspective, and I want to make clear that defending your nation and opposing immigration of any kind is not a crime.

    [0]: http://sezession.de/37160/wir-selbst-anthropologisch.html
    [1]: https://voxday.blogspot.fr/2016/08/what-alt-right-is.html

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    I want to provide those who visit this blog post with a saner perspective
     
    Before you can do any of that, you need to actually understand what I wrote. It doesn't seem like you do.

    This entry is all about one thing, and one thing only: the existence of ethnic nepotism. That is, whether or not kin altruism led individuals to favor members of their own ethnic group over others. The answer of course is no. This is impossible, for the reasons stated within. All the rest of your talk about group characteristics and population replacement by immigration is completely tangential to this.


    “The fitness impact to a White man’s genes if his daughter marries a Black man is the same as if she married an unrelated White man (again, fitness from gene function notwithstanding).”

    This is reductionist
     

    Yes. This is a science blog. Reductionism is one of the key goals of science.

    and does not take into account that a national character exists.
     
    Nothing to do with it. See above. Read the statement again.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Post updated, 9/23/15 9/22/15. See below! This will be the first column in a series on the broad human behavioral dimension dubbed "clannishness" by HBD Chick. I've talked quite about clannishness here, and of course it is the main theme of HBD Chick's blog. For background, see: start here | hbd chick clannishness defined |...
  • […] in all directions from there. This area is also the area of peak human accomplishment (see Clannishness – The Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain and “core europe” and human accomplish-ment | hbd chick), which likewise roughly diminishes […]

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Just as mainstream wisdom on human psychology and evolution is filled with heaps of rubbish (rubbish which I've covered here extensively – see 200 Blog Posts – Everything You Need to Know (To Start)), the space of dissenting voices on this matter is also filled with its own share of rubbish – and worse. I've...
  • […] for kin altruism and hence kin selection (see a table and short discussion in my earlier entry “Ethnic Genetic Interests” Do Not Exist (Neither Does Group Selection). Now while kin selection was involved, it couldn’t have been a dominant force, because kin […]

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  • One feature of these individuals is a visceral opposition to “race mixing” (ignoring the fact that such gave us the modern races we see today). Well to those guys, I say I’ve been busy spreading my Black (and other) genes into the White gene pool here in Maine

    Uh, no. Your children are not part of the white gene pool. To be part of the white gene pool, you can’t have recent non-white ancestry.

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  • Post updated, 9/23/15 9/22/15. See below! This will be the first column in a series on the broad human behavioral dimension dubbed "clannishness" by HBD Chick. I've talked quite about clannishness here, and of course it is the main theme of HBD Chick's blog. For background, see: start here | hbd chick clannishness defined |...
  • @JayMan

    Ugh, what in the world am I living that North and South Koreans, East and West Germans are biologically and genetically as distinct as Blacks and Whites?
     
    #ExcludedMiddleFallacy.

    The excluded middle is not a fallacy, it’s a theorem of standard logics. You mean black or white/false dilemma fallacy. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/eitheror.html

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Just as mainstream wisdom on human psychology and evolution is filled with heaps of rubbish (rubbish which I've covered here extensively – see 200 Blog Posts – Everything You Need to Know (To Start)), the space of dissenting voices on this matter is also filled with its own share of rubbish – and worse. I've...
  • @ACThinker
    Jayman,

    Altruism towards in group as a basis for racism or reasons why we'd be genetically predisposed to mate in group? eh.. maybe a bit, but not as likely as other real physical traits.

    There is a basis for preferring those of a closer but not close genetic group. Consider that there are broad areas with their - until recent times - vast separation between them. There are over the 10K years* of separation between the European stock, the Asian stock, the Native American Stock, etc. Each of these areas has it's own fun problems of disease, pests, etc. Each of these has some amount of genetic fitness passed on to each generation for that local.

    Consider something as simple as a nose. There is typically a small nose in northern Europe, a large nose for the European of the Med, and then a much larger broader nose in the African population. Why? well one suggestion has to do with how the nose regulates the air we breath making it match what the lungs tolerate better. It needs to create the right humidity and warmth.

    We could look and melatonin in the skin, hair color and shape, etc. Each of these leads to a fitness for a given area.

    Now let me put in what is the real signalers of these - the pheromones that we as humans put off. These are un noticed by our conscious mind, but our mating response picks up on them and helps to fill and filter out who we should be with. Women are especially sensitive to this evidently, and it would be disastrous for a woman in prehistory to badly mate having children who were ill suited to their climate zone.

    Fast forward to today, some of that is still going on. This is not to say that the pheromones are destiny on mate choice, it is to say that they play a roll.

    Does this mean mixed children are worse off? Not necessarily because the threats of early death from genetic unfitness have been for now reduced, come the SHTF crash of the future, where we as a species have lost the capacity to live as we do today? well a reversion to Roman level food production will makes those genetically fit for the local hostile environment more able to survive

    * ok probably longer but 10k is an ok wag for this


    PS all this talk of human inbreeding. Any animal studies done on primates on this?

    Now let me put in what is the real signalers of these – the pheromones that we as humans put off. These are un noticed by our conscious mind, but our mating response picks up on them and helps to fill and filter out who we should be with.

    I don’t think there is any good evidence that pheromones do anything for humans.

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  • Jayman,

    Altruism towards in group as a basis for racism or reasons why we’d be genetically predisposed to mate in group? eh.. maybe a bit, but not as likely as other real physical traits.

    There is a basis for preferring those of a closer but not close genetic group. Consider that there are broad areas with their – until recent times – vast separation between them. There are over the 10K years* of separation between the European stock, the Asian stock, the Native American Stock, etc. Each of these areas has it’s own fun problems of disease, pests, etc. Each of these has some amount of genetic fitness passed on to each generation for that local.

    Consider something as simple as a nose. There is typically a small nose in northern Europe, a large nose for the European of the Med, and then a much larger broader nose in the African population. Why? well one suggestion has to do with how the nose regulates the air we breath making it match what the lungs tolerate better. It needs to create the right humidity and warmth.

    We could look and melatonin in the skin, hair color and shape, etc. Each of these leads to a fitness for a given area.

    Now let me put in what is the real signalers of these – the pheromones that we as humans put off. These are un noticed by our conscious mind, but our mating response picks up on them and helps to fill and filter out who we should be with. Women are especially sensitive to this evidently, and it would be disastrous for a woman in prehistory to badly mate having children who were ill suited to their climate zone.

    Fast forward to today, some of that is still going on. This is not to say that the pheromones are destiny on mate choice, it is to say that they play a roll.

    Does this mean mixed children are worse off? Not necessarily because the threats of early death from genetic unfitness have been for now reduced, come the SHTF crash of the future, where we as a species have lost the capacity to live as we do today? well a reversion to Roman level food production will makes those genetically fit for the local hostile environment more able to survive

    * ok probably longer but 10k is an ok wag for this

    PS all this talk of human inbreeding. Any animal studies done on primates on this?

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    Now let me put in what is the real signalers of these – the pheromones that we as humans put off. These are un noticed by our conscious mind, but our mating response picks up on them and helps to fill and filter out who we should be with.
     
    I don't think there is any good evidence that pheromones do anything for humans.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Post updated, 9/23/15 9/22/15. See below! This will be the first column in a series on the broad human behavioral dimension dubbed "clannishness" by HBD Chick. I've talked quite about clannishness here, and of course it is the main theme of HBD Chick's blog. For background, see: start here | hbd chick clannishness defined |...
  • […] traits. Psychopathy (at least in WEIRDO environments – see the list in the beginning of the post Clannishness – the Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain) is commonly thought to be maintained by frequency dependent selection; that is, psychopathy is […]

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • […] By contrast, as we know, there was plenty of development in East Asia and Europe, especially Northwestern Europe: […]

    Read More
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  • In a recent post, Fred Reed asks: The short answer is that any killing, for whatever reason, increases the likelihood of killing for other reasons. One exception is self-defence, but that's not done for pleasure. Another exception is capital punishment, but that, too, is not done for pleasure. More to the point, no single citizen...
  • @Shmiggen
    First off, I thought Fred's question was dumb. What he probably wants to ask is, how do we know mass Hispanic immigration is bad? That's cutting to the chase of it.

    If we don't know who "we" are, and we don't know what we want, and we don't know where we're going, we can't answer the question.

    Why can't we ask this, rather than going the long winded curcuitous route of Evo-speak?

    Personally, I think mass Hispanic immigration is good. Why? Because their Catholic and their traditions are western and they will assimilate just as the Italians did. They will drive our trucks, cook our food and cut our lawns for us, and their taxes will support our retirement.

    We should be happy. I live in the real world and all I have to do is look at Europe to see how lucky we are. Mass Muslim immigration is a death wish. It will have bloody results. But we here in the USA are sitting pretty. Hector and Juan will be good for America; Mohammed and Achmed will reign down bloody murder on Europe.

    Shmigg, concur. Question for you, since you see the threat; Can you see our Hispanic influx one day battling Obama’s Muslim influx for control of the U.S., post-White-European society? Say, 50-80 years hence? Perhaps a new American civil war? It happened in South-Central L.A. Blacks hardly have a place to hang their hats anymore.

    Obama’s people are the Syrians, the Muslims. He was happy to use Hispanics to his own ends, but is not the undertow of Africans from Libya, Syria, Iraq and the rest not Obama’s challenge to the Hispanics? My wonder is that Hispanics and Blacks in America are not protesting the Muslim undertow into the United States. Hispanics and Blacks will inherit the United States, yet they utter not one peep about the new competition being introduced.

    Thoughts?

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Post updated, 9/23/15 9/22/15. See below! This will be the first column in a series on the broad human behavioral dimension dubbed "clannishness" by HBD Chick. I've talked quite about clannishness here, and of course it is the main theme of HBD Chick's blog. For background, see: start here | hbd chick clannishness defined |...
  • […] we saw previously in my posts Clannishness – the Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain, there is a strong correlation between the size of the Muslim fraction in European countries and […]

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @gregor
    Is the mean IQ for all of China really 105? Does that include the rural peasants?

    Is the mean IQ for all of China really 105? Does that include the rural peasants?

    See Welcome Readers from Portugal!

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  • Is the mean IQ for all of China really 105? Does that include the rural peasants?

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Is the mean IQ for all of China really 105? Does that include the rural peasants?
     
    See Welcome Readers from Portugal!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @JayMan

    Can we agree to stop using Nobel Prizes as an indicator of intelligence.
     
    No. Next.

    Good argument there. All done here.

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  • @Wizard of Oz
    Sorry to take advantage of this thread to come back late with a question that was just prompted by considering whether some very smart and successful Jewish friends of mine were "clannish".

    Einstein had no problem with "tribe" and "tribal" when referring to Jews so I am tempted to assume that you would agree that Jews are notably clannish. How does that fit in with your thesis about the consequences of North Western Europeans shedding their clannishness and the undeniable Jewish individual achievements in science, banking, mathematics, literature and scholarship of every kind?

    Einstein had no problem with “tribe” and “tribal” when referring to Jews so I am tempted to assume that you would agree that Jews are notably clannish

    http://www.unz.com/jman/zigzag-lightning/#comment-1151630

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  • @JayMan

    At first glance the idea that clannishness is opposed to high trust invites questions. After all family and clan require trust and punishment of betrayal of trust to get the benefit out of belonging to the clan.

    So, to start with, is even the presumption of trust and loyalty within the clan incorrect?
     

    This is why I put the note to read the links in the beginning of the post. But yes, in clannish societies, there is generally high trust within the clan, but lower trust between clans.

    Are the dynamics of large families, and even larger much extended clannish families, such as to produce friction, tension and dislike?
     
    Well clannish people tend to be more antagonistic and aggressive, so family life is often more acrimonious than in WEIRDO families just for that reason.

    Sorry to take advantage of this thread to come back late with a question that was just prompted by considering whether some very smart and successful Jewish friends of mine were “clannish”.

    Einstein had no problem with “tribe” and “tribal” when referring to Jews so I am tempted to assume that you would agree that Jews are notably clannish. How does that fit in with your thesis about the consequences of North Western Europeans shedding their clannishness and the undeniable Jewish individual achievements in science, banking, mathematics, literature and scholarship of every kind?

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    Einstein had no problem with “tribe” and “tribal” when referring to Jews so I am tempted to assume that you would agree that Jews are notably clannish
     
    http://www.unz.com/jman/zigzag-lightning/#comment-1151630
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @JayMan

    The thing is you don’t really need “clannishness” to explain any of this (except insofar as in extreme inbreeding cases it begins to greatly lower overall IQ leading to much smaller smart fractions).
     
    It's pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.

    Ancient Greeks did a lot of abstract thinking, and produced the greatest cultural/scientific peak until the Renaissance (according to the same Charles Murray’s figures).
     
    Ancient Greeks were quite different than modern Greeks. And how clannish were the ancients?

    During the Middle Ages, in pure scientific terms, the Islamic world was most advanced.
     
    It wasn't the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn't last long, for some reason.

    The Renaissance began in northern Italy. Only in the 17th century did the bulk of scientific discoveries move to NW Europe.
     
    In the definition HBD Chick and I use, and as should be make abundantly clear by the maps, Northern Italy = NW Europe. "NW Europe" here refers to the region enclosed by the Hajnal line.

    North Italians are not Middle Easterners in the clannishness department, but they are most certainly not Englishmen or Swedes either.
     
    Yes, that's something this post should make clear. Degrees...

    The Swedes at that time however were about 1% literate (can’t have much literacy in a low-density, rural environment at that level of development) whereas the literacy rate in Renaissance Italy was more like 20%.
     
    I think HBD Chick well covered that the Scandinavians were late-comers to the WEIRDO world, but they came with a vengeance when they did. Apparently, there was a period of intense selection for WEIRDO-ness in Scandinavia.

    Scientific creativity is much more likely a simple function of smart fractions * literacy race,
     
    Nope. This post makes it clear that that position is untenable.

    In modern times, relative wealth levels would play a greater part
     
    Two words: East Asia (relative wealth roughly the same in Japan, for example). And besides, where does relative wealth come from?

    It wasn’t the Arabs making those discoveries.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhazen

    Not arabs eh?

    Just because black people are the only group to not really invent anything (except for the NAACP and dumping ones child on others for care) doesn’t mean you have to group the rest.

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  • Excellent! I being a clannish Indian who has lived in Western Europe for years think this piece is one of the most brilliant and comprehensive works ever done on HBD .

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  • Just as mainstream wisdom on human psychology and evolution is filled with heaps of rubbish (rubbish which I've covered here extensively – see 200 Blog Posts – Everything You Need to Know (To Start)), the space of dissenting voices on this matter is also filled with its own share of rubbish – and worse. I've...
  • what happened to misdreavus?

    he was the only non-retard in the whole of the HBD-sphere.

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  • Post updated, 9/23/15 9/22/15. See below! This will be the first column in a series on the broad human behavioral dimension dubbed "clannishness" by HBD Chick. I've talked quite about clannishness here, and of course it is the main theme of HBD Chick's blog. For background, see: start here | hbd chick clannishness defined |...
  • In this fantastic Japanese film has some scenes seem to show a bit of Japanese theater or opera. Eastern classical music without any Western influence, that is, that are unique in the region can be very beautiful, but can also be much more so long ( for example, when we hear a single lone voice singing the same words for 3.4 minutes) and less condensed into different rythms. Of course it is an anecdotal observation but the music as well as culture or even more precise than the same, it may express the average personality that predominates in a particular region, that the ancient anthropologists termed racial character.

    I remember a Chinese immigrant performing in the ” Poland Got Talent ” and showing a bit of traditional Chinese music. I also remember contained laughing in the audience. Just tradition or oriental complacency and calm make them more reciprocal to this type of music that is very particular and need to be concentrated so it can be appreciated *

    Western operas are/seems to be almost always happier than the eastern operas. Only anecdotal observations.

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  • @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    Hey Jayman,

    Another random thought: I'm not sure how familiar you are with the research into extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation, or if you even take it seriously, but it seems Western Europeans have much more of the latter compared to other groups. Would you agree this is part of the suite of traits associated with guilt culture?

    Another random thought: I’m not sure how familiar you are with the research into extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation,

    Sounds exactly like shame vs. guilt culture to me.

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  • Hey Jayman,

    Another random thought: I’m not sure how familiar you are with the research into extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation, or if you even take it seriously, but it seems Western Europeans have much more of the latter compared to other groups. Would you agree this is part of the suite of traits associated with guilt culture?

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Another random thought: I’m not sure how familiar you are with the research into extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation,
     
    Sounds exactly like shame vs. guilt culture to me.
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  • No one’s commenting anymore?

    Anyhow, not all heavy metallers are cousins of the Swedes. Check out this guy (who I’ve seen live several times):

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  • […] JAYMAN: Clannishness – the Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain. […]

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  • […] Clannishness – the Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain – from jayman. see also: a few thoughts. from me! (^_^) […]

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @JayMan

    Again, you have interesting ideas. But consider running it by someone with a passing knowledge of scientific analysis before publishing it here.
     
    You're probably better off to just stop talking, as you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Go back to my Welcome page and familiarize yourself with everything you see there and all it links to before you comment again. That wasn't a suggestion.

    What seems to be missed here is the additive power of “accidents” / “self-selection” / different cultural norms AND genetic drift over time caused by these factors. It’s not genetics OR culture – surely can both function together, amplifying each others’ effects. The issue is we are only seeing half the story in mainstream discourse (Jayman / hbdchick etc excluded). This means WEIRD societies keep coming up with stupid ideas (liberal democracy in Iraq people, double quick, snap snap etc) because we are wilfully ignoring the genetic aspects of human behaviour that can’t be totally altered overnight.

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  • @szopen
    The fact that those tiny countries could colonise vast areas of the world is as impressive achievement as later contributions to the science, because this fact was enabled by combination of technical advantages, psychological predispositions (and, last but not least, pure luck). Building sea-worthy ship is comparable to any scientific achievement.
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  • @SFG
    Interestingly, if you try to maximize IQ+conservatism you wind up in the Eastern European quadrant. Maybe that's part of the reason neoreactionaries love Russia?

    Interestingly, if you try to maximize IQ+conservatism you wind up in the Eastern European quadrant. Maybe that’s part of the reason neoreactionaries love Russia?

    Yup.

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  • Interestingly, if you try to maximize IQ+conservatism you wind up in the Eastern European quadrant. Maybe that’s part of the reason neoreactionaries love Russia?

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Interestingly, if you try to maximize IQ+conservatism you wind up in the Eastern European quadrant. Maybe that’s part of the reason neoreactionaries love Russia?
     
    Yup.
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  • @thinkingabout it
    1. The Germany article says nothing about HBD. Occam's razor would make most normal folk attribute this to the tremendous differences in political and religious climates these areas have experienced over the last millennium. Catholicism vs Protestantism, Prussia vs Austria-Hungary vs little city states, Germanic homogeneity vs exposure to the Slavic borderzone and so on.

    2. The Korea article is brazen in its abuse of statistical reasoning. Do you know what a Null hypothesis is? If you are claiming there is a genetic difference, it is incumbent upon YOU to prove it. I do not need to prove similarity - the null hypothesis is ALWAYS the baseline assumption in a Frequentist approach. And the overwhelming Bayesian prior, especially in this case where a fairly homogenous country was split apart by a war, is that the people of the DPRK and the ROK have very similar genetics.

    3. Historical accidents come from just that, accidents. Winter snowstorms which halt an army's march. Language barriers which prevent the spread of ideologies. Staple crops which are differentially affected by blight in any given year. Monsoon rains which fail in some areas and not in others, causing peasant revolts here and not there. Empires which exhaust their resources on one war, and find themselves overwhelmed by a new threat.

    And what is not caused by accident, can be explained by culture. Europeans were not necessarily predisposed to Christianity, they just happened to be under the rule of an empire which was taken over by Christians. Iranians were not predisposed to either Zoroastrianism or Islam, they just had it rammed down their throats by their emperors.

    Was there something genetic about West Punjabis that made them Muslim, while East Punjabis became Sikhs? HBD explains West Bengalis being Hindu, while East Bengalis became Muslim? If the Reconquista hadn't succeeded, you would have said there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them predisposed to accepting Islam. Now you would say there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them unsuited to Islam, while their cousins across the straits of Gibraltar were a better fit.

    None of those explanations can be completely falsified, but it takes a special kind of kook to think that genetic factors are the major explanations for a region's politico-religious 0utlay.

    There are no grand theories to be drawn from these random patterns. You and hbdchick remind me of children looking up at the clouds and imagining flowers and puppies and faces.

    Again, you have interesting ideas. But consider running it by someone with a passing knowledge of scientific analysis before publishing it here. God knows we have enough balderdash from that weird Mexican guy and other assorted loonies on Unz.com. Sailer, Razib and Derbyshire keep the place afloat, but they risk getting drowned out by all this baseless stuff.

    Abotu null hypothesis: you are right, except for one thing: we would disagree what is a null hypothesis. For me (and I presume for Jayman too) the null hypothesis is taht if you have two different regions, then there can be genetical differences between them, including perhaps differences resulting in a differences in distribution of different psychological trait. This is a unll hypothesis for me, because it is so obviously consistent with both the real world observation, and is logically resulting from my understanding of evolution and genetics. My null hypothesis is that ANY human populations will differ (even neighbouring villages) as long as there is any barrier (social, geographical) which prevents those populations from constant interbreeding. The claim that South and North Koreans are the same is – for me – the claim so outlandish, so it would require a really convincing proof. For me, the burden of proof is on you.

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  • @Rdm
    2. NW Europeans

    There's no denying that Europeans in general, specifically Northern Europeans contributed much to the advancement of Humans civilization in the past centuries. It is also understandable if they feel proud of their achievement. However if you go on to explain why Evolution proceeds quicker in NW Europeans and their creativity stems from their hereditary traits or "WEIRDOS" trait, I suggest you pause it there because it's not clannish or weirdo behavior that propelled them to become 21st century weirdos, it's an accumulated wealth that propels them into becoming one.

    Now let's look at all the beautiful world maps you put up there.
    IQ map shows a bit of distribution across the globe except Africa. NE Asians have the highest IQs whereas Africa has the lowest IQ. That's not the point here. The point is IQ is relatively distributed across the globe.

    Now let's look at all the other maps.
    Nobel Prizes,
    Field Medals,
    Scientific Publications,
    Patents applications,

    They all seem to cluster in Europeans countries, especially NW Europeans. Impressive, isn't it? It is so astounding that out of so many nations, and countries on Earth, only those tiny countries from Europe stood out to contribute much to Science.

    You know what would explain? Just show the one giant map with countries that had "COLONIZE" other countries and accumulated wealth over time. That giant maps will explain in no time why we are seeing this lopsided distribution of NW Europeans contribution to Science in the past centuries.

    As I commented above, the world maps (Nobel Prize, Field Medal, Pubs, Patents), they are not the result of hereditary traits. They are the offshoot of pre-existing wealth conditions.

    If you dare, do the world map before Industrial revolution on these categories and check which continents stood out among others;
    1. Civilization (uniting tribal groups one after another, and lasting longer)
    2. Vertical movement in an Empire or Monarchy
    3. Spreading indigenous genes across the continent
    (I'd ask why NW Europeans failed to spread their genes to America in the first place? if their weirdo traits are so suited for discoveries and creativity? Why Native Americans genes are not European genes? Yea Bering straits and continent shaft, whatever, but why not NW Europeans genes? The fact that Native American genes belong to Asian genes is some form of hereditary achievement across the continent, don't you think?)

    Those categories are to be Major Achievements in Human history before science. Now if you put back 21st century lens, you won't find them major achievement. But I'd say they do stand out as Evolutionary Achievement in certain time point in evolution.

    The fact that those tiny countries could colonise vast areas of the world is as impressive achievement as later contributions to the science, because this fact was enabled by combination of technical advantages, psychological predispositions (and, last but not least, pure luck). Building sea-worthy ship is comparable to any scientific achievement.

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    Absolutely right.

    http://beyondvictoriana.com/2011/01/21/africans-in-ancient-china-vice-versa-part-3-zheng-hes-star-fleet-guest-blog-by-eccentric-yoruba/
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  • Star Trek: The Motion Picture is the best of the ST films. There, I said it.

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  • […] jaymans.wordpress.com (recently got promoted to join the #1 HBD blog,  Unz.com, so most of his readers have followed him there) […]

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  • Where do bloggers come from?

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  • @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    What traits are required to be a good HBDer? I know high IQ is one of them, but what else? I'm talking mostly in terms of HEXACO, or maybe other characteristics typical of the best HBDers.

    Western Europeans, for all their genius in science, mostly seem to find HBD incomprehensible, so their particular set of characteristics must be bad for HBD science.

    ”Western Europeans, for all their genius in science”

    It is a coletivization of individual specific profiles. Average western european are not super bright because they are average as well happen in all group populations.

    People who think about ideas tend to be different than people who prefer to think about other(/himself) people.

    We are a mix between rational and instinctive while this people are likely to be a mix between emotional and rational.

    ((rational hardly win :( )

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  • Other very important component of geniality = vivacity or enthusiasm with their ideas.

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  • @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    This is a good post Santoculto. I actually sometimes wonder if Western Europeans may have higher narcissism, rather than lower, even though it's negatively correlated with honesty-humility (a personality trait whose inverse overlaps a great deal with psychopathy/Dark Triad traits). As Jayman describes here, data on corruption and other factors show that East Asians have lower honesty-humility. But I think though that higher narcissism would help European scientists buck conformity more easily and become potential Galileos. Just my thoughts.

    And Santoculto, I'm sorry for being an asshole to you, come back to Pumpkin Person's blog! We need you there!

    Thank you.

    No, I have a very little IQ, you do not need someone with IQ 103.

    Read what former researchers on genius has said about them. Genius has a bipolarized personality (not to be confused with bipolar, is not exactly the same thing), on average, of course. They need to combine the extremes of human behavior and more, this combination is constant, ” alive ”. Normal people are apathetic.

    I’ve talked a few times about lack of narcissism among East Asians, the blog Pumpkin Persson, remember it because the JS greeted me for the comment.

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  • What traits are required to be a good HBDer? I know high IQ is one of them, but what else? I’m talking mostly in terms of HEXACO, or maybe other characteristics typical of the best HBDers.

    Western Europeans, for all their genius in science, mostly seem to find HBD incomprehensible, so their particular set of characteristics must be bad for HBD science.

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    ''Western Europeans, for all their genius in science''


    It is a coletivization of individual specific profiles. Average western european are not super bright because they are average as well happen in all group populations.

    People who think about ideas tend to be different than people who prefer to think about other(/himself) people.

    We are a mix between rational and instinctive while this people are likely to be a mix between emotional and rational.

    ((rational hardly win :( )
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  • @Santoculto
    For the last...

    narcisism spectrum...

    Narcissists are very self confident. I read a study that said that they tend to make self-assessment errors, believing they are much better than they actually are. Antisocial personality tends to correlate positively with narcissism and / or overconfidence.

    East Asians appear to be, on average, less narcissistic of all ethnic groups.

    The genius tends to take between. The typical creative displays an ambidextrous personality. A balance between confidence (for example, to believe in their revolutionary ideas when no one is believing) and humility (to recognize one's mistakes). The zig-zag, the metaphor of the title or reflective thought.

    This is a good post Santoculto. I actually sometimes wonder if Western Europeans may have higher narcissism, rather than lower, even though it’s negatively correlated with honesty-humility (a personality trait whose inverse overlaps a great deal with psychopathy/Dark Triad traits). As Jayman describes here, data on corruption and other factors show that East Asians have lower honesty-humility. But I think though that higher narcissism would help European scientists buck conformity more easily and become potential Galileos. Just my thoughts.

    And Santoculto, I’m sorry for being an asshole to you, come back to Pumpkin Person’s blog! We need you there!

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Thank you.

    No, I have a very little IQ, you do not need someone with IQ 103.

    Read what former researchers on genius has said about them. Genius has a bipolarized personality (not to be confused with bipolar, is not exactly the same thing), on average, of course. They need to combine the extremes of human behavior and more, this combination is constant, '' alive ''. Normal people are apathetic.

    I've talked a few times about lack of narcissism among East Asians, the blog Pumpkin Persson, remember it because the JS greeted me for the comment.
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  • @Anonymous

    It’s pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.
     
    There are basically 4 traditions of philosophy in the world: Western, Islamic, Hindu, and Chinese. Jewish philosophy could be considered a distinct tradition, or as a subset of Western and Islamic philosophy.

    Western, Islamic, and Jewish philosophy are all based on Greek philosophy. They are all characterized by abstract though. Hindu philosophy is not directly founded on Greek philosophy, but has a logic and grammarian tradition, and is characterized by abstraction. All of these traditions are basically abstract in nature and could be classed together.

    The only holistic tradition is Chinese philosophy. There are arguably only two distinct classes of philosophy: "Greek" philosophy which encompasses all the abstract traditions, and the Chinese , which is the only holistic philosophy.

    I'm not sure how well this would correlate with the "clannishness" dimension, however, if the Islamic and Indian cultures are more clannish than the Sinitic.

    Hello Jayman,

    Yes, I know my last post was silly oversimplification.

    Can you respond to post #31? Nisbett claims that Jewish/Yiddish philosophy is closer to the Chinese than European, but as Anon. states, Arabic and Indian philosophy shared more in common with European than Chinese philosophy. And as some other commenters have stated, mathematics was significantly advanced by Arabs (in actuality, more like Persians) and Indians. Although Nisbett states that algebra was more of an East Asian trait than European one, as the latter mastered geometry first.

    Is holism a continuous trait, with those closer China having more of it than others? Or do you think it is something unique to China, with other Asian culture closer to Europe in terms of thinking style? Does the honor culture of Arabic peoples have anything to do with their (overstated) contributions to philosophy/science, and with their style of cognition?

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  • @Biff

    Indeed, it was Northwestern Europeans that gave us science as we know it. Northwestern Europeans brought about the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions and continue to be at the forefront of discovery to
     
    Science is based on mathmatics and that began in the middle east in the 7th century. The two oldest universities are in Turkey and Iraq. Algerbra is an Arab term. The concept of zero is Arabic. You aren't going to get to the moon using Roman numerals.

    Science is based on mathmatics and that began in the middle east in the 7th century. The two oldest universities are in Turkey and Iraq. Algerbra is an Arab term. The concept of zero is Arabic. You aren’t going to get to the moon using Roman numerals.

    By the 7th century Euclid’s Elements was in use as a textbook for a thousand years and maths is far older.
    Madrasas aren’t universities. Madrasas issue ijazahs for sharia. Medieval Christian universities were legally autonomous corporate entities, giving degrees in different subjects, that evolved from cathedral schools that pre-date Islam. Some madrasas became universities in the 20th century.
    Algebra is an Arabic term. It describes a branch of maths going back to the Sumerians and brought to a new level by Diophantus (“the father of algebra”) and Brahmagupta (the first person to give the rules for computing with zero) before al-Khwārizmī was born.
    The concept of zero as number is Indian.
    You aren’t going to improve things by deluding yourself.

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  • @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    Hey Jayman,

    If one were to rank the three main racial groups on HEXACO, do you think the order would be as follows? (from high to low):

    Honesty-Humility: whites, yellows, blacks
    Emotionality: yellows, whites, blacks
    EXtroversion: blacks, whites, yellows
    Agreeableness: yellows, whites, blacks
    Conscientiousness: yellows, whites, blacks
    Openness: whites, yellows, blacks

    HH and Openness break up Rushton's old "yellow, white, black" ordering.

    If one were to rank the three main racial groups on HEXACO, do you think the order would be as follows? (from high to low):

    Remember, there’s White, and then there’s White. Eastern Europeans aren’t exactly high H and high O (or high A for that matter).

    I expected more than that naive oversimplification from you…

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  • @Rdm
    Sorry guys, as much as I'd like to delve into this subject, any perspective that I brought up to the table if against the Jay assertion goes into trash. So I can't.

    Although not sure if this will go through,

    Rdm, you keep saying things that prove how poorly informed you are. - Smiddy
     
    Is it because I'm poorly informed or is it because I'm going against your idea or assertion? If you want a PhD Level talk, we can have it. I'm not some kind of dropout and spewing out my fantasy idea here.

    I’m not some kind of dropout and spewing out my fantasy idea here.

    Smiddy is correct.

    It also really pisses me off when I direct people to information relevant to a discussion and they continue to blather on without reading said information. Until you’ve done so, don’t bother showing yourself here.

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  • Sorry guys, as much as I’d like to delve into this subject, any perspective that I brought up to the table if against the Jay assertion goes into trash. So I can’t.

    Although not sure if this will go through,

    Rdm, you keep saying things that prove how poorly informed you are. – Smiddy

    Is it because I’m poorly informed or is it because I’m going against your idea or assertion? If you want a PhD Level talk, we can have it. I’m not some kind of dropout and spewing out my fantasy idea here.

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    I’m not some kind of dropout and spewing out my fantasy idea here.
     
    Smiddy is correct.

    It also really pisses me off when I direct people to information relevant to a discussion and they continue to blather on without reading said information. Until you've done so, don't bother showing yourself here.

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  • For the last…

    narcisism spectrum…

    Narcissists are very self confident. I read a study that said that they tend to make self-assessment errors, believing they are much better than they actually are. Antisocial personality tends to correlate positively with narcissism and / or overconfidence.

    East Asians appear to be, on average, less narcissistic of all ethnic groups.

    The genius tends to take between. The typical creative displays an ambidextrous personality. A balance between confidence (for example, to believe in their revolutionary ideas when no one is believing) and humility (to recognize one’s mistakes). The zig-zag, the metaphor of the title or reflective thought.

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    • Replies: @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    This is a good post Santoculto. I actually sometimes wonder if Western Europeans may have higher narcissism, rather than lower, even though it's negatively correlated with honesty-humility (a personality trait whose inverse overlaps a great deal with psychopathy/Dark Triad traits). As Jayman describes here, data on corruption and other factors show that East Asians have lower honesty-humility. But I think though that higher narcissism would help European scientists buck conformity more easily and become potential Galileos. Just my thoughts.

    And Santoculto, I'm sorry for being an asshole to you, come back to Pumpkin Person's blog! We need you there!
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  • @Anonymous
    Yes. Concentration vs Creativity seems like a better explanation to me. Note how when people take drugs such as modafinil their concentration increases while their creativity decreases.

    I'm not buying the idea that Asians are not good at abstract thinking when all evidence except for number of Field's medals won points to them excelling at Math.

    Proposed explanations:
    1. Q factor, might also call it passion for understanding.

    2. Concentration vs Creativity.

    3. Spatial IQ vs Analytical IQ.

    4. Abstract thinking ability. Does this overlap with #3?

    5. Socioeconomic.

    Whatever the reason for why almost all of mankind's innovation has come from the west, it probably will not be as important in determining global power as it used to be since new technology is now quickly copied.

    Yes. I think we all have a point in our spirit that shines brighter and that determines our path. I determined this’ point g ” as intrinsic motivation. However, it is also necessary that this motivation is spontaneous and by intellectual and / or cognitive nature.

    The conformity factor seems to have a very strong role in this phenomenon, because almost all creative types will be more energetic and nonconformists, although often they will do it stupidly, as with many artists and left-wing intellectuals.

    Nonconformity is not synonymous with wisdom, intelligence in its most direct and gross manifestation. This explains why so many nonconformists end up embracing toxic ideologies. Because one does not have to lead to another. Often, they do so because of its overflowing energy and lack of extrinsic focus, than for real understanding of the events that encapsulate.

    Leftism is not completely wrong, in fact, is far from. The problem is that to get understand it, you need more neurons. Combine leftism with democracy and you have chaos.

    Extrinsic motivation is everything that is not entirely related to our spirit. Asian east, although they may have intrinsic motivations more pronounceable, are good at focusing for example to public examinations and school tests. The ability to dissociate the strong influence of personality on intelligence, in my opinion, a new concept for concentration, is one of the most common and typical cognitive characteristics between them.

    In other words, strong personality of people may be less likely to achieve control ” fox seven tails ” (search on google for Naruto;)) who live within them, while people with more domesticated personality, They are best to meet the needs of the system in which they live (without question) but also to control the instinctive pulse in favor of their ‘obligations”.

    On spatial IQ. I do not know if the best realist painters artists or talented cartoonists punctuate super high in spatial IQ tests. I think the difference in this respect between East Asian and Euro-Caucasians, it just gives the highest percentage of neuroatypicals with these gifts of nature savant. We know there are people with savant syndrome presenting a visually stunning detail memory and they tend to score very low in general cognitive tests.

    The Western advantage has been primarily due to a higher proportion of neuroatypicals types, ie those who actually have some spectacular cognitive gift and that often the great innovators of our time.

    I also agree that I do not see the East Asian as less capable of abstract thought, on average. That’s important to specify. The average white is better in the abstract thought that the east asian, or in fact, there is a greater cognitive diversity among whites, resulting in highly intelligent subgroups in abstract thinking compared to East Asians ??

    We must keep in mind also that creative geniuses (and other types) are extremely rare, especially in societies like the past, the chances that someone very clever and creative could become prominent in societies dominated by social conformity and class, was likely to have been very little. Note that even in today’s world, nepotism is still prevalent.

    An interesting case to be discussed is about the concept and the literal application of creativity among eminent geniuses. For example, Charles Darwin was creative?

    I do not think so much in quantitative terms. In fact, he developed a few theories, from what I know. Few theories, but they were exceptional and revolutionary. Darwin was a discontinuous creative, it was not exactly a typical creative, or continuous creative, which has a lot of ideas per day or per month. But he was able to develop (belatedly unbelievable to think that denial of magical thinking of the church, was still very widespread among people ” educated ” until the second half of the nineteenth century) but few revolutionary theories. And from there, his intelligence and willpower were very important for the development of their work.

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  • anon • Disclaimer says:
    @thinkingaboutit
    Jayman, if you want to adopt Razib's haughty attitude towards dissenting commenters, you need to back it up with the same rigor he uses in his arguments.
    Instead, you're edging closer and closer to Koanicsoul levels of fact-freeness.

    I think you can see the pattern most clearly when you look at the difference between the two extremes of first cousin marriage: Arab world and NW Europe.

    If the basic idea is correct the differences between populations between those two extremes will vary greatly due to local factors (and maybe over time also).

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  • anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Rdm
    Agreed on the population size and selection pressure.

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into "More creative, and more Weirdo" traits.

    What I argue is it's not hereditary tendency, rather it reflects the pre-existing condition of wealth those countries have accumulated over the years. There's nothing hereditary nature of those NW Europeans making them more creative. It's the "Wealth" that serves as a foundation for their curiosity to make it reality.

    Now let's say if we test North and South Koreans after 70 years of separation, do South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? in terms of their looks, their features, their language?

    South Koreans will stand out in "Creativity", "Innovation" compared to North Koreans when we consider Samsung, LG, LED display used in iPhones, and Kia, Hyundai automobile, etc etc etc. Guess what, if we compare South Koreans and North Koreans in Publications and Patents, National Medals, we can imagine South Korea will have more of those achievements when we put into a map. Does it translate that South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? or South Koreans become more creative due to selection pressure?

    It's clear it's the "Wealth" that propels South Koreans to pursue their creative idea and curiosity to make them reality. And we are only seeing South Koreans economic boom after WWII. It's not even a century yet.

    But those NW Europeans Dutch, French, Germany, British, they once had plethora of colonies in other parts of the world. You can imagine how much "wealth" they would have accumulated over time. That's why we're seeing the lopsided distribution of this "Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents" in those Europeans countries.

    Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents do not translate into Hereditary nature of "Creativity" and "Curiosity". They represent "Wealth" as a foundation.

    I’d say the basic idea presented here – that the change in marriage culture in NW Europe in the early medieval period had a dramatic effect over time – is correct. Although no doubt a lot of the details will need to be hashed out.

    I think it was those changes that somehow lead to the initial increase in wealth – whether through a genetic effect or through creating a society where inventiveness was promoted – although I’d agree once it got started that would create a cycle where the increase in wealth fuels itself.

    The thing is there have been many empires in history and they all start with the soon to be imperial power having some kind of advantage over their neighbors. This is only disputed when discussing the European empires of the colonial era so to me it seems like a political argument.

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  • @unpc downunder
    Oddly enough heavy metal seems to have become something of a middle class nerd/bohemian thing - it also seems to haved cross-fertilised alot with the upper middle class nerd world of progressive rock. The working class tend to prefer classic heavy rock like ACDC, while lower middle classic web designers listen to Opeth and Dream Theater.

    Oddly enough heavy metal seems to have become something of a middle class nerd/bohemian thing – it also seems to haved cross-fertilised alot with the upper middle class nerd world of progressive rock. The working class tend to prefer classic heavy rock like ACDC, while lower middle classic web designers listen to Opeth and Dream Theater.

    The progressive metal scene is the future of music, pioneered by the like of Meshuggah and Misha Mansoor. Uncharacteristic to “traditionally” Western music it is dissonant, and of course, it majorly started in Sweden. It is also majorly composed of whites, and in my extensive experience, non-whites are pretty well integrated (or dispersed) into “metal” culture.

    Luckily metal has been growing and now is bigger than pop. Because honestly, if there is ever a revolution, metal would go hand-in-hand with it (songs like Thy Art Is Murder’s “Holy War” or Molotov Solution’s “Injustice For All” come to mind). Their lyrics tend to be brutally honest. If there was a genre of music that could every possibly unite future generations of Westerners in some semblance, this is it.

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  • @Rdm
    Agreed on the population size and selection pressure.

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into "More creative, and more Weirdo" traits.

    What I argue is it's not hereditary tendency, rather it reflects the pre-existing condition of wealth those countries have accumulated over the years. There's nothing hereditary nature of those NW Europeans making them more creative. It's the "Wealth" that serves as a foundation for their curiosity to make it reality.

    Now let's say if we test North and South Koreans after 70 years of separation, do South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? in terms of their looks, their features, their language?

    South Koreans will stand out in "Creativity", "Innovation" compared to North Koreans when we consider Samsung, LG, LED display used in iPhones, and Kia, Hyundai automobile, etc etc etc. Guess what, if we compare South Koreans and North Koreans in Publications and Patents, National Medals, we can imagine South Korea will have more of those achievements when we put into a map. Does it translate that South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? or South Koreans become more creative due to selection pressure?

    It's clear it's the "Wealth" that propels South Koreans to pursue their creative idea and curiosity to make them reality. And we are only seeing South Koreans economic boom after WWII. It's not even a century yet.

    But those NW Europeans Dutch, French, Germany, British, they once had plethora of colonies in other parts of the world. You can imagine how much "wealth" they would have accumulated over time. That's why we're seeing the lopsided distribution of this "Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents" in those Europeans countries.

    Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents do not translate into Hereditary nature of "Creativity" and "Curiosity". They represent "Wealth" as a foundation.

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into “More creative, and more Weirdo” traits.

    This is such a Boasian point of view… And its such a joke at this point. You don’t even have to know anything about HBD or genetics, you just have to know history, to see how wrong this point is…

    Rdm, you keep saying things that prove how poorly informed you are. Why not actually read the material in question first, and then ask questions later? That way you will atleast seem more informed.

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  • Since my comment won’t be published anyway, whether or not I come up with a different perspective, would I be so wrong if I assert that when it comes to in-depth discussion, dark-skinned people tend to go bananas and block/ban when they get cornered? since they can’t argue against the logic compared to White people, esp NW Europeans?

    That’s why those dark-skinned people territory/continents/ are so well behind Evolutionary curve? lower IQ, wild, uncivilized? am I wrong to assert those assumption?

    At least this comment will get to you, yet unpublished.

    Ciao!

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  • @valiance

    Ancient Greeks were quite different than modern Greeks. And how clannish were the ancients?
     
    Do you have any books or articles that discuss this? I've always wondered if there was a standard-HBD explanation for the huge differences in intelligence and personality between modern and ancient Greeks. Any idea as to what precisely happened?

    Do you have any books or articles that discuss this? I’ve always wondered if there was a standard-HBD explanation for the huge differences in intelligence and personality between modern and ancient Greeks. Any idea as to what precisely happened?

    This very website has an article on it.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Santoculto
    East Asians are excellent in the ability to concentrate. That is, to neutralize the effects of the personality in relation to cognition. This is one reason to do better in cognitive tests.

    Less adhd.

    http://www.pyragraph.com/2013/11/creative-loosen-frontal-lobe/


    Creativity is based primarily on ability to capture unusual perceptions or remote associations and in this sense, you need to be without centralized attention, because centralized attention mean ''concentrates in a narrow perceptions''. Usually when we are decentralized, it is because we are being bombarded by a lot of perceptions of various kinds. In '' non-creative '', this can cause torpor.

    The ability to concentrate is based on the exact opposite of creativity, and the East Asian are actually very good at it.

    Creativity, especially scientific and objectively usual or utilitarian, primarily based on the production of different and interesting ideas

    and then

    in its development, where the intelligence becomes increasingly necessary.

    So the question on the smaller creative capacity of East Asians, on average, in relation to European Caucasians, should be modified or diversified

    '' Why they are less creative ?? ''

    for

    '' What have they gained from it ?? ''

    The ability to concentrate, to isolate the effects of personality on cognition.

    Yes. Concentration vs Creativity seems like a better explanation to me. Note how when people take drugs such as modafinil their concentration increases while their creativity decreases.

    I’m not buying the idea that Asians are not good at abstract thinking when all evidence except for number of Field’s medals won points to them excelling at Math.

    Proposed explanations:
    1. Q factor, might also call it passion for understanding.

    2. Concentration vs Creativity.

    3. Spatial IQ vs Analytical IQ.

    4. Abstract thinking ability. Does this overlap with #3?

    5. Socioeconomic.

    Whatever the reason for why almost all of mankind’s innovation has come from the west, it probably will not be as important in determining global power as it used to be since new technology is now quickly copied.

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Yes. I think we all have a point in our spirit that shines brighter and that determines our path. I determined this' point g '' as intrinsic motivation. However, it is also necessary that this motivation is spontaneous and by intellectual and / or cognitive nature.

    The conformity factor seems to have a very strong role in this phenomenon, because almost all creative types will be more energetic and nonconformists, although often they will do it stupidly, as with many artists and left-wing intellectuals.

    Nonconformity is not synonymous with wisdom, intelligence in its most direct and gross manifestation. This explains why so many nonconformists end up embracing toxic ideologies. Because one does not have to lead to another. Often, they do so because of its overflowing energy and lack of extrinsic focus, than for real understanding of the events that encapsulate.

    Leftism is not completely wrong, in fact, is far from. The problem is that to get understand it, you need more neurons. Combine leftism with democracy and you have chaos.

    Extrinsic motivation is everything that is not entirely related to our spirit. Asian east, although they may have intrinsic motivations more pronounceable, are good at focusing for example to public examinations and school tests. The ability to dissociate the strong influence of personality on intelligence, in my opinion, a new concept for concentration, is one of the most common and typical cognitive characteristics between them.

    In other words, strong personality of people may be less likely to achieve control '' fox seven tails '' (search on google for Naruto;)) who live within them, while people with more domesticated personality, They are best to meet the needs of the system in which they live (without question) but also to control the instinctive pulse in favor of their 'obligations''.


    On spatial IQ. I do not know if the best realist painters artists or talented cartoonists punctuate super high in spatial IQ tests. I think the difference in this respect between East Asian and Euro-Caucasians, it just gives the highest percentage of neuroatypicals with these gifts of nature savant. We know there are people with savant syndrome presenting a visually stunning detail memory and they tend to score very low in general cognitive tests.

    The Western advantage has been primarily due to a higher proportion of neuroatypicals types, ie those who actually have some spectacular cognitive gift and that often the great innovators of our time.

    I also agree that I do not see the East Asian as less capable of abstract thought, on average. That's important to specify. The average white is better in the abstract thought that the east asian, or in fact, there is a greater cognitive diversity among whites, resulting in highly intelligent subgroups in abstract thinking compared to East Asians ??

    We must keep in mind also that creative geniuses (and other types) are extremely rare, especially in societies like the past, the chances that someone very clever and creative could become prominent in societies dominated by social conformity and class, was likely to have been very little. Note that even in today's world, nepotism is still prevalent.

    An interesting case to be discussed is about the concept and the literal application of creativity among eminent geniuses. For example, Charles Darwin was creative?

    I do not think so much in quantitative terms. In fact, he developed a few theories, from what I know. Few theories, but they were exceptional and revolutionary. Darwin was a discontinuous creative, it was not exactly a typical creative, or continuous creative, which has a lot of ideas per day or per month. But he was able to develop (belatedly unbelievable to think that denial of magical thinking of the church, was still very widespread among people '' educated '' until the second half of the nineteenth century) but few revolutionary theories. And from there, his intelligence and willpower were very important for the development of their work.
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  • @JayMan

    For one, I’m not sure we can say Northwestern Europeans are the most creative people in the world. Blacks have demonstrated substantial creativity, particularly in music and entertainment.

    I would argue that blacks’ “creativity” is mostly a function of their high extroversion. In the fields where they predominate, like popular music and comedy, they tend to specialize in certain areas: in popular music, mostly improvisational (jazz) or syncopated dance music (R&B, hip-hop).
     

    I don't think it's simply a matter of extroversion.

    Of course, you don’t see see too many in Swedish death metal.
     
    About that (almost added this to the post):

    https://twitter.com/JayMan471/statuses/508328358669987840

    Same pattern as the rest. I know some fool out there will claim that the way to win more Nobel prizes is to listen to more heavy metal.


    As a final note: you’ve laid out brilliantly that Westerners = reductionistic, and Easterners = holistic. But what explains Westerners fascination with Eastern holism since the 1960s, particularly among those high in openness? (in the form of Eastern religion, New Age, systems theory, vegetarianism, etc.)
     
    Yup.

    Oh, second final note: This all makes perfect sense, but it would be good get to get as much data as possible to back up your assertions (which you’ve done a lot already); people will claim that you’re inventing ad-hoc reasons for East Asian weakness in sciences despite their higher intelligence. And then they’ll say you’re raaaaay-cist!
     
    The data speak for themselves.

    Oddly enough heavy metal seems to have become something of a middle class nerd/bohemian thing – it also seems to haved cross-fertilised alot with the upper middle class nerd world of progressive rock. The working class tend to prefer classic heavy rock like ACDC, while lower middle classic web designers listen to Opeth and Dream Theater.

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    • Replies: @Smiddy

    Oddly enough heavy metal seems to have become something of a middle class nerd/bohemian thing – it also seems to haved cross-fertilised alot with the upper middle class nerd world of progressive rock. The working class tend to prefer classic heavy rock like ACDC, while lower middle classic web designers listen to Opeth and Dream Theater.
     
    The progressive metal scene is the future of music, pioneered by the like of Meshuggah and Misha Mansoor. Uncharacteristic to "traditionally" Western music it is dissonant, and of course, it majorly started in Sweden. It is also majorly composed of whites, and in my extensive experience, non-whites are pretty well integrated (or dispersed) into "metal" culture.

    Luckily metal has been growing and now is bigger than pop. Because honestly, if there is ever a revolution, metal would go hand-in-hand with it (songs like Thy Art Is Murder's "Holy War" or Molotov Solution's "Injustice For All" come to mind). Their lyrics tend to be brutally honest. If there was a genre of music that could every possibly unite future generations of Westerners in some semblance, this is it.

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  • Hey Jayman,

    If one were to rank the three main racial groups on HEXACO, do you think the order would be as follows? (from high to low):

    Honesty-Humility: whites, yellows, blacks
    Emotionality: yellows, whites, blacks
    EXtroversion: blacks, whites, yellows
    Agreeableness: yellows, whites, blacks
    Conscientiousness: yellows, whites, blacks
    Openness: whites, yellows, blacks

    HH and Openness break up Rushton’s old “yellow, white, black” ordering.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    If one were to rank the three main racial groups on HEXACO, do you think the order would be as follows? (from high to low):
     
    Remember, there's White, and then there's White. Eastern Europeans aren't exactly high H and high O (or high A for that matter).

    I expected more than that naive oversimplification from you...

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  • @Rdm
    Agreed on the population size and selection pressure.

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into "More creative, and more Weirdo" traits.

    What I argue is it's not hereditary tendency, rather it reflects the pre-existing condition of wealth those countries have accumulated over the years. There's nothing hereditary nature of those NW Europeans making them more creative. It's the "Wealth" that serves as a foundation for their curiosity to make it reality.

    Now let's say if we test North and South Koreans after 70 years of separation, do South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? in terms of their looks, their features, their language?

    South Koreans will stand out in "Creativity", "Innovation" compared to North Koreans when we consider Samsung, LG, LED display used in iPhones, and Kia, Hyundai automobile, etc etc etc. Guess what, if we compare South Koreans and North Koreans in Publications and Patents, National Medals, we can imagine South Korea will have more of those achievements when we put into a map. Does it translate that South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? or South Koreans become more creative due to selection pressure?

    It's clear it's the "Wealth" that propels South Koreans to pursue their creative idea and curiosity to make them reality. And we are only seeing South Koreans economic boom after WWII. It's not even a century yet.

    But those NW Europeans Dutch, French, Germany, British, they once had plethora of colonies in other parts of the world. You can imagine how much "wealth" they would have accumulated over time. That's why we're seeing the lopsided distribution of this "Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents" in those Europeans countries.

    Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents do not translate into Hereditary nature of "Creativity" and "Curiosity". They represent "Wealth" as a foundation.

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into “More creative, and more Weirdo” traits.

    What I argue is it’s not hereditary tendency, rather it reflects the pre-existing condition of wealth those countries have accumulated over the years. There’s nothing hereditary nature of those NW Europeans making them more creative.

    So why then does Japan lag? Why does Finland lag in Nobels?

    And why did the NW European countries take off in discovery so much ahead of everyone? (See here) After all, where does wealth come from?

    You need to learn some behavioral genetics. See my Welcome page for a starter list, or see the links at the bottom of the page.

    This is your final comment on this claim. Do not assert this claim again here.

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  • @anon

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same.
     
    Evolution speed depends on effective population size: more people = more random mutations.

    It will also depend on selection pressure. If the environment remains the same then even if the population increases there may be no reason to select for the new mutations.

    If the environment changes e.g. due to the change in marriage pattern in NW Europe, then that might create new selection pressures on both old and any new random mutations.

    Agreed on the population size and selection pressure.

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into “More creative, and more Weirdo” traits.

    What I argue is it’s not hereditary tendency, rather it reflects the pre-existing condition of wealth those countries have accumulated over the years. There’s nothing hereditary nature of those NW Europeans making them more creative. It’s the “Wealth” that serves as a foundation for their curiosity to make it reality.

    Now let’s say if we test North and South Koreans after 70 years of separation, do South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? in terms of their looks, their features, their language?

    South Koreans will stand out in “Creativity”, “Innovation” compared to North Koreans when we consider Samsung, LG, LED display used in iPhones, and Kia, Hyundai automobile, etc etc etc. Guess what, if we compare South Koreans and North Koreans in Publications and Patents, National Medals, we can imagine South Korea will have more of those achievements when we put into a map. Does it translate that South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? or South Koreans become more creative due to selection pressure?

    It’s clear it’s the “Wealth” that propels South Koreans to pursue their creative idea and curiosity to make them reality. And we are only seeing South Koreans economic boom after WWII. It’s not even a century yet.

    But those NW Europeans Dutch, French, Germany, British, they once had plethora of colonies in other parts of the world. You can imagine how much “wealth” they would have accumulated over time. That’s why we’re seeing the lopsided distribution of this “Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents” in those Europeans countries.

    Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents do not translate into Hereditary nature of “Creativity” and “Curiosity”. They represent “Wealth” as a foundation.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into “More creative, and more Weirdo” traits.

    What I argue is it’s not hereditary tendency, rather it reflects the pre-existing condition of wealth those countries have accumulated over the years. There’s nothing hereditary nature of those NW Europeans making them more creative.
     

    So why then does Japan lag? Why does Finland lag in Nobels?

    And why did the NW European countries take off in discovery so much ahead of everyone? (See here) After all, where does wealth come from?

    You need to learn some behavioral genetics. See my Welcome page for a starter list, or see the links at the bottom of the page.

    This is your final comment on this claim. Do not assert this claim again here.

    , @Smiddy

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into “More creative, and more Weirdo” traits.
     
    This is such a Boasian point of view... And its such a joke at this point. You don't even have to know anything about HBD or genetics, you just have to know history, to see how wrong this point is...

    Rdm, you keep saying things that prove how poorly informed you are. Why not actually read the material in question first, and then ask questions later? That way you will atleast seem more informed.
    , @anon
    I'd say the basic idea presented here - that the change in marriage culture in NW Europe in the early medieval period had a dramatic effect over time - is correct. Although no doubt a lot of the details will need to be hashed out.

    I think it was those changes that somehow lead to the initial increase in wealth - whether through a genetic effect or through creating a society where inventiveness was promoted - although I'd agree once it got started that would create a cycle where the increase in wealth fuels itself.

    The thing is there have been many empires in history and they all start with the soon to be imperial power having some kind of advantage over their neighbors. This is only disputed when discussing the European empires of the colonial era so to me it seems like a political argument.
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  • @valiance

    Ancient Greeks were quite different than modern Greeks. And how clannish were the ancients?
     
    Do you have any books or articles that discuss this? I've always wondered if there was a standard-HBD explanation for the huge differences in intelligence and personality between modern and ancient Greeks. Any idea as to what precisely happened?

    I’ve always wondered if there was a standard-HBD explanation for the huge differences in intelligence and personality between modern and ancient Greeks.

    See HBD Chick’s post linked at the bottom of this one.

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  • Ancient Greeks were quite different than modern Greeks. And how clannish were the ancients?

    Do you have any books or articles that discuss this? I’ve always wondered if there was a standard-HBD explanation for the huge differences in intelligence and personality between modern and ancient Greeks. Any idea as to what precisely happened?

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    I’ve always wondered if there was a standard-HBD explanation for the huge differences in intelligence and personality between modern and ancient Greeks.
     
    See HBD Chick's post linked at the bottom of this one.
    , @Smiddy

    Do you have any books or articles that discuss this? I’ve always wondered if there was a standard-HBD explanation for the huge differences in intelligence and personality between modern and ancient Greeks. Any idea as to what precisely happened?
     
    This very website has an article on it.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • In relation to Eastern thought.

    The Buddhist oriental culture says that ” everything is connected ”, while Western culture says that ” things exist separate from each other. ”

    I do not know the term holistic is well spent, because thinking holistically, also mean, think about it all, including the details. It would be the very act of thinking about the truth or reality.

    The idea that everything is connected is very beautiful and true in parts. However, I do not doubt that this mentality has shaped the eastern ” collective ” consciousness and eliminated most of divergent thinkers who are essentially individualistic, not necessarily in the selfish sense.

    The Great Eastern wave is always in the same direction, while the large wave Caucasian most closely resembles the breaking of waves on the rocks of a mediterranean beach, dark gray sand, closer to you.

    Environmental factors are also very important to explain why Scandinavia not have been so creative at the time of the Italian Renaissance, for example.

    I think, an elite that want to develop ” their ” nation, can contribute considerably to creating conditions for the nurture genius, why not just have a favorable genetic stock, even if it is essential, it is also important to have a meritocratic mechanism highly efficient you can find them and put them in comfortable social situation so that they can develop their talents and ideas.

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  • East Asians are excellent in the ability to concentrate. That is, to neutralize the effects of the personality in relation to cognition. This is one reason to do better in cognitive tests.

    Less adhd.

    http://www.pyragraph.com/2013/11/creative-loosen-frontal-lobe/

    Creativity is based primarily on ability to capture unusual perceptions or remote associations and in this sense, you need to be without centralized attention, because centralized attention mean ”concentrates in a narrow perceptions”. Usually when we are decentralized, it is because we are being bombarded by a lot of perceptions of various kinds. In ” non-creative ”, this can cause torpor.

    The ability to concentrate is based on the exact opposite of creativity, and the East Asian are actually very good at it.

    Creativity, especially scientific and objectively usual or utilitarian, primarily based on the production of different and interesting ideas

    and then

    in its development, where the intelligence becomes increasingly necessary.

    So the question on the smaller creative capacity of East Asians, on average, in relation to European Caucasians, should be modified or diversified

    ” Why they are less creative ?? ”

    for

    ” What have they gained from it ?? ”

    The ability to concentrate, to isolate the effects of personality on cognition.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Yes. Concentration vs Creativity seems like a better explanation to me. Note how when people take drugs such as modafinil their concentration increases while their creativity decreases.

    I'm not buying the idea that Asians are not good at abstract thinking when all evidence except for number of Field's medals won points to them excelling at Math.

    Proposed explanations:
    1. Q factor, might also call it passion for understanding.

    2. Concentration vs Creativity.

    3. Spatial IQ vs Analytical IQ.

    4. Abstract thinking ability. Does this overlap with #3?

    5. Socioeconomic.

    Whatever the reason for why almost all of mankind's innovation has come from the west, it probably will not be as important in determining global power as it used to be since new technology is now quickly copied.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Rdm
    I read your edited post and agreed that if we brought up certain events happened from time immemorial, we can argue forever which event is which.

    Not nitpicking over semantics, however I gathered that you are saying Evolution happened a lot faster these days than what had happened a thousand years ago. Therefore, NW Europeans have appeared to evolve scientifically and artistically than the rest of the racial groups during the past centuries, supported by their wealth, achievement, IQ, Nobel, etc etc.

    This is a summary of your post in one paragraph. It seems plausible and ego-stroking article for NW Europeans for sure, assuming a human with an average life-span of 70 years, can now look back 400 years of their achievement and feel good whatever that stroke.

    I will argue 2 issues; Evolution and NW Europeans.

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same. Either you go back in time 1000 or 5000 years, you will only understand when you put yourself into contemporary subjects. Since this is scientific perspective, bear with me one this. When you think back what happened an hour ago, you don't actually need an hour in order to "reflect" or "think back". Within a flash of second, you remember what happened an hour ago. The same goes for thinking about what happened yesterday. You don't need 24 hours to think back what happened yesterday. Now think about what happened a year ago. Do you need 365 days to think back? Memory might be blurry, the fact of the matter here is all those time scale: 1 hour, 24 hours, 365 days, you spent those times as time goes by. Your grand grand parents who had lived on this Earth also went by those time scale. An hour they had lived thousands years ago on this Earth is the same hour we are experience these days. But to think back time immemorial, we don't need to travel back, we just need a flash of second to reflect what had happened previously. That's when this "Evolution proceeds quicker than you think" problem kicks in.

    Do you think a human who had lived 10,000 years ago evolve slowly than we do today? The evolutionary angle we are now looking at is so simple; we tend to look at it from scientific advancement and materialistic achievement. Now pause here. Let's reflect.

    You wake up in the morning, have breakfast, read the news, go for work, walk up straight, smile at other pedestrians you come across. That's normal for today. Now put yourself back in stone age or whatever age. You woke up in a cave, the cave that you arduously searched in the wilderness to protect yourself because you had to run to death the other day from the wild animals chasing you. You felt some sensation called "hunger" in your stomach. You had no idea what to put something in your mouth. So you grabbed a bunch of leaves protruding from the stone cracks, put into your mouth, and that's how you started experimenting with different kinds of edible things putting into your mouth.

    You went out to navigate the territory; you came across another feather that looked exactly like you. Are you going to smile at him? or are you going to be anxious that he's going to kill you and eat you? or how do you communicate? by British English? ok that's a joke.

    So coming back to our question of evolution and its speed; the simple thing that we take for granted these days, waking up without worries, be able to smile at fellow human beings, communicating through language, traveling from destination to destination, they all constitute "Evolutionary Achievement" over thousands of years.

    From your standpoint, you are discounting those evolutionary achievement with the current evolution. For eg., developing a bona fide language for the first time in human history for communication will take years to become functionally effective. But the offshoot of the existing language is merely "evolution", unless it is entirely different in nature. So NW Europeans, did they develop their communication language earlier than the rest of the human race? like they became verbal, began asking questions out of curiosity?

    The bottom line is Evolution proceeds as the same speed as it did thousands of years ago. What you observed from NW Europeans are not evolutionary traits. They are offshoots of pre-existing conditions, or vis a vis accumulated wealth, which I commented in next.

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same.

    Evolution speed depends on effective population size: more people = more random mutations.

    It will also depend on selection pressure. If the environment remains the same then even if the population increases there may be no reason to select for the new mutations.

    If the environment changes e.g. due to the change in marriage pattern in NW Europe, then that might create new selection pressures on both old and any new random mutations.

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    • Replies: @Rdm
    Agreed on the population size and selection pressure.

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into "More creative, and more Weirdo" traits.

    What I argue is it's not hereditary tendency, rather it reflects the pre-existing condition of wealth those countries have accumulated over the years. There's nothing hereditary nature of those NW Europeans making them more creative. It's the "Wealth" that serves as a foundation for their curiosity to make it reality.

    Now let's say if we test North and South Koreans after 70 years of separation, do South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? in terms of their looks, their features, their language?

    South Koreans will stand out in "Creativity", "Innovation" compared to North Koreans when we consider Samsung, LG, LED display used in iPhones, and Kia, Hyundai automobile, etc etc etc. Guess what, if we compare South Koreans and North Koreans in Publications and Patents, National Medals, we can imagine South Korea will have more of those achievements when we put into a map. Does it translate that South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? or South Koreans become more creative due to selection pressure?

    It's clear it's the "Wealth" that propels South Koreans to pursue their creative idea and curiosity to make them reality. And we are only seeing South Koreans economic boom after WWII. It's not even a century yet.

    But those NW Europeans Dutch, French, Germany, British, they once had plethora of colonies in other parts of the world. You can imagine how much "wealth" they would have accumulated over time. That's why we're seeing the lopsided distribution of this "Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents" in those Europeans countries.

    Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents do not translate into Hereditary nature of "Creativity" and "Curiosity". They represent "Wealth" as a foundation.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    There are some major problems with your first graph. Germany has just as many Catholics as Protestants, so to lump it in to the Protestant category is very misleading. Switzerland and Netherlands have MORE Catholics than Protestants, so putting them in that section over the other is not accurate at all.

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  • Jayman, if you want to adopt Razib’s haughty attitude towards dissenting commenters, you need to back it up with the same rigor he uses in his arguments.
    Instead, you’re edging closer and closer to Koanicsoul levels of fact-freeness.

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    • Agree: Max Payne
    • Replies: @anon
    I think you can see the pattern most clearly when you look at the difference between the two extremes of first cousin marriage: Arab world and NW Europe.

    If the basic idea is correct the differences between populations between those two extremes will vary greatly due to local factors (and maybe over time also).
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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @JayMan

    Look at what? I’m looking at Europe in images 3, 4 and 10. They contradict each other.
     
    The regional IQ maps are the more fine-grained display of European IQ scores. Think harder, and maybe read some links given here. I'd advise you to do so before commenting again.

    Look at the Balkans. According to image 10, the whole region shouldn’t be the same color in image 3, and the yellow region in image 4 is not right either. For example, image 10 shows Croatia and Hungary as exactly the same, yet in image 4 Croatia’s approximate IQ is given as 90 and Hungary’s as 100. Image 4 also shows Romania’s approximate IQ as 100, and Bulgaria’s as 90, but image 10 tells us Bulgarians are the more intelligent ones. Which is it then?

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  • […] got a cool new post up on clannishness and western inventiveness! here are a few thoughts from […]

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  • Where is my other comment? on NW Europeans? The special kind of race that we now need to put them into “Endangered species” list. Without them, we are not sure of our scientific future ahead.

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  • Gonna trash some comments, because they’re getting really dumb. If yours doesn’t make the cut, that’s why.

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  • @Rdm

    Stop Saying North and South Koreans Are Necessarily Completely Identical Populations
     
    Ugh, what in the world am I living that North and South Koreans, East and West Germans are biologically and genetically as distinct as Blacks and Whites?

    Ugh, what in the world am I living that North and South Koreans, East and West Germans are biologically and genetically as distinct as Blacks and Whites?

    #ExcludedMiddleFallacy.

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    • Replies: @Emil O. W. Kirkegaard
    The excluded middle is not a fallacy, it's a theorem of standard logics. You mean black or white/false dilemma fallacy. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/eitheror.html
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  • @JayMan

    Good god, man. Are eastern and western Germany biologically predisposed to communism and capitalism respectively? The koreas? Athens and Sparta?
     
    Germania’s Seed?

    Stop Saying North and South Koreans Are Necessarily Completely Identical Populations

    “l’explication de l’idéologie” | hbd chick


    Accidents of history are rarely given the weight they deserve.
     
    Where do historical accidents come from?

    You really need someone to intellectually challenge you, instead of praising you for every little utterance of yours
     
    I hope you have luck finding one to do so.

    Stop Saying North and South Koreans Are Necessarily Completely Identical Populations

    Ugh, what in the world am I living that North and South Koreans, East and West Germans are biologically and genetically as distinct as Blacks and Whites?

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Ugh, what in the world am I living that North and South Koreans, East and West Germans are biologically and genetically as distinct as Blacks and Whites?
     
    #ExcludedMiddleFallacy.
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  • @Hugo
    Can we agree to stop using Nobel Prizes as an indicator of intelligence. It's horribly misleading. It's like using American Idol winners to declare those with musical talent.

    Can we agree to stop using Nobel Prizes as an indicator of intelligence.

    No. Next.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Good argument there. All done here.
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  • @Anonymous
    Look at what? I'm looking at Europe in images 3, 4 and 10. They contradict each other.

    Look at what? I’m looking at Europe in images 3, 4 and 10. They contradict each other.

    The regional IQ maps are the more fine-grained display of European IQ scores. Think harder, and maybe read some links given here. I’d advise you to do so before commenting again.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Look at the Balkans. According to image 10, the whole region shouldn't be the same color in image 3, and the yellow region in image 4 is not right either. For example, image 10 shows Croatia and Hungary as exactly the same, yet in image 4 Croatia's approximate IQ is given as 90 and Hungary's as 100. Image 4 also shows Romania's approximate IQ as 100, and Bulgaria's as 90, but image 10 tells us Bulgarians are the more intelligent ones. Which is it then?
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  • @thinkingabout it
    1. The Germany article says nothing about HBD. Occam's razor would make most normal folk attribute this to the tremendous differences in political and religious climates these areas have experienced over the last millennium. Catholicism vs Protestantism, Prussia vs Austria-Hungary vs little city states, Germanic homogeneity vs exposure to the Slavic borderzone and so on.

    2. The Korea article is brazen in its abuse of statistical reasoning. Do you know what a Null hypothesis is? If you are claiming there is a genetic difference, it is incumbent upon YOU to prove it. I do not need to prove similarity - the null hypothesis is ALWAYS the baseline assumption in a Frequentist approach. And the overwhelming Bayesian prior, especially in this case where a fairly homogenous country was split apart by a war, is that the people of the DPRK and the ROK have very similar genetics.

    3. Historical accidents come from just that, accidents. Winter snowstorms which halt an army's march. Language barriers which prevent the spread of ideologies. Staple crops which are differentially affected by blight in any given year. Monsoon rains which fail in some areas and not in others, causing peasant revolts here and not there. Empires which exhaust their resources on one war, and find themselves overwhelmed by a new threat.

    And what is not caused by accident, can be explained by culture. Europeans were not necessarily predisposed to Christianity, they just happened to be under the rule of an empire which was taken over by Christians. Iranians were not predisposed to either Zoroastrianism or Islam, they just had it rammed down their throats by their emperors.

    Was there something genetic about West Punjabis that made them Muslim, while East Punjabis became Sikhs? HBD explains West Bengalis being Hindu, while East Bengalis became Muslim? If the Reconquista hadn't succeeded, you would have said there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them predisposed to accepting Islam. Now you would say there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them unsuited to Islam, while their cousins across the straits of Gibraltar were a better fit.

    None of those explanations can be completely falsified, but it takes a special kind of kook to think that genetic factors are the major explanations for a region's politico-religious 0utlay.

    There are no grand theories to be drawn from these random patterns. You and hbdchick remind me of children looking up at the clouds and imagining flowers and puppies and faces.

    Again, you have interesting ideas. But consider running it by someone with a passing knowledge of scientific analysis before publishing it here. God knows we have enough balderdash from that weird Mexican guy and other assorted loonies on Unz.com. Sailer, Razib and Derbyshire keep the place afloat, but they risk getting drowned out by all this baseless stuff.

    Again, you have interesting ideas. But consider running it by someone with a passing knowledge of scientific analysis before publishing it here.

    You’re probably better off to just stop talking, as you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Go back to my Welcome page and familiarize yourself with everything you see there and all it links to before you comment again. That wasn’t a suggestion.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What seems to be missed here is the additive power of "accidents" / "self-selection" / different cultural norms AND genetic drift over time caused by these factors. It's not genetics OR culture - surely can both function together, amplifying each others' effects. The issue is we are only seeing half the story in mainstream discourse (Jayman / hbdchick etc excluded). This means WEIRD societies keep coming up with stupid ideas (liberal democracy in Iraq people, double quick, snap snap etc) because we are wilfully ignoring the genetic aspects of human behaviour that can't be totally altered overnight.
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  • @Rdm
    I read your edited post and agreed that if we brought up certain events happened from time immemorial, we can argue forever which event is which.

    Not nitpicking over semantics, however I gathered that you are saying Evolution happened a lot faster these days than what had happened a thousand years ago. Therefore, NW Europeans have appeared to evolve scientifically and artistically than the rest of the racial groups during the past centuries, supported by their wealth, achievement, IQ, Nobel, etc etc.

    This is a summary of your post in one paragraph. It seems plausible and ego-stroking article for NW Europeans for sure, assuming a human with an average life-span of 70 years, can now look back 400 years of their achievement and feel good whatever that stroke.

    I will argue 2 issues; Evolution and NW Europeans.

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same. Either you go back in time 1000 or 5000 years, you will only understand when you put yourself into contemporary subjects. Since this is scientific perspective, bear with me one this. When you think back what happened an hour ago, you don't actually need an hour in order to "reflect" or "think back". Within a flash of second, you remember what happened an hour ago. The same goes for thinking about what happened yesterday. You don't need 24 hours to think back what happened yesterday. Now think about what happened a year ago. Do you need 365 days to think back? Memory might be blurry, the fact of the matter here is all those time scale: 1 hour, 24 hours, 365 days, you spent those times as time goes by. Your grand grand parents who had lived on this Earth also went by those time scale. An hour they had lived thousands years ago on this Earth is the same hour we are experience these days. But to think back time immemorial, we don't need to travel back, we just need a flash of second to reflect what had happened previously. That's when this "Evolution proceeds quicker than you think" problem kicks in.

    Do you think a human who had lived 10,000 years ago evolve slowly than we do today? The evolutionary angle we are now looking at is so simple; we tend to look at it from scientific advancement and materialistic achievement. Now pause here. Let's reflect.

    You wake up in the morning, have breakfast, read the news, go for work, walk up straight, smile at other pedestrians you come across. That's normal for today. Now put yourself back in stone age or whatever age. You woke up in a cave, the cave that you arduously searched in the wilderness to protect yourself because you had to run to death the other day from the wild animals chasing you. You felt some sensation called "hunger" in your stomach. You had no idea what to put something in your mouth. So you grabbed a bunch of leaves protruding from the stone cracks, put into your mouth, and that's how you started experimenting with different kinds of edible things putting into your mouth.

    You went out to navigate the territory; you came across another feather that looked exactly like you. Are you going to smile at him? or are you going to be anxious that he's going to kill you and eat you? or how do you communicate? by British English? ok that's a joke.

    So coming back to our question of evolution and its speed; the simple thing that we take for granted these days, waking up without worries, be able to smile at fellow human beings, communicating through language, traveling from destination to destination, they all constitute "Evolutionary Achievement" over thousands of years.

    From your standpoint, you are discounting those evolutionary achievement with the current evolution. For eg., developing a bona fide language for the first time in human history for communication will take years to become functionally effective. But the offshoot of the existing language is merely "evolution", unless it is entirely different in nature. So NW Europeans, did they develop their communication language earlier than the rest of the human race? like they became verbal, began asking questions out of curiosity?

    The bottom line is Evolution proceeds as the same speed as it did thousands of years ago. What you observed from NW Europeans are not evolutionary traits. They are offshoots of pre-existing conditions, or vis a vis accumulated wealth, which I commented in next.

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same.

    Do you bother to read the things I point you to? Check out The 10,000 Year Explosion for a discussion on Fisherian acceleration.

    But then, from the rest of your comment, it doesn’t sound like you understand the first thing about evolution or natural selection to begin with. Perhaps you may want to start more basic.

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  • @JayMan

    I am reading the first diagram correctly, Russia is more inbred than Pakistan ( a country where first-cousin marriage is the norm).
     
    The axes added by me represent a general trend, not an definitive scale. Russia is not more inbred than Pakistan, but it is more so than those on the right side of the plot.

    Can we agree to stop using Nobel Prizes as an indicator of intelligence. It’s horribly misleading. It’s like using American Idol winners to declare those with musical talent.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Can we agree to stop using Nobel Prizes as an indicator of intelligence.
     
    No. Next.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @JayMan

    You should sort out the IQ maps in this post. They contradict each other.
     
    Look closer. And maybe read closer, too.

    Look at what? I’m looking at Europe in images 3, 4 and 10. They contradict each other.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    Look at what? I’m looking at Europe in images 3, 4 and 10. They contradict each other.
     
    The regional IQ maps are the more fine-grained display of European IQ scores. Think harder, and maybe read some links given here. I'd advise you to do so before commenting again.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous

    Nonetheless, the Fields Medal statistics clearly show East Asians (and Eastern Europeans) lagging well behind NW Europeans in top accomplishments. This confirms that their worse Nobel performance isn’t just due to institutional barriers or other social limitation, but lower ability to make novel advancements.
     
    Ashkenazim surpass NW Europeans on these sorts of measures. Also, abstract and scientific thinking goes back to the ancient Greeks. The origin of many extant sciences is credited to Aristotle, and the kind of mathematized model building that characterizes modern science is present in Hellenistic Greece and Near East. No historians of science credit science to NW Europeans. It's credited to Mediterranean populations.

    Ashkenazim surpass NW Europeans on these sorts of measures.

    Perhaps this is true, but you still have to remember that the very founding mitochondrial DNA of the Ashkenazi genome is Italian (Northern Italian, which would make them Wasp, if I remember correctly). They really are an “in-betweener” group.

    There is no denying the incredible impact of Jews historically, particularly when it comes to ideas, but there’s a plethora of issues which makes accounting for them through any universal system or rubric problematic, to put it mildly.

    Also, abstract and scientific thinking goes back to the ancient Greeks. The origin of many extant sciences is credited to Aristotle, and the kind of mathematized model building that characterizes modern science is present in Hellenistic Greece and Near East. No historians of science credit science to NW Europeans. It’s credited to Mediterranean populations.

    I think someone else addressed this, but yeah you could do some more research, your definitions seem to be a bit out of context.

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  • @JayMan

    Good god, man. Are eastern and western Germany biologically predisposed to communism and capitalism respectively? The koreas? Athens and Sparta?
     
    Germania’s Seed?

    Stop Saying North and South Koreans Are Necessarily Completely Identical Populations

    “l’explication de l’idéologie” | hbd chick


    Accidents of history are rarely given the weight they deserve.
     
    Where do historical accidents come from?

    You really need someone to intellectually challenge you, instead of praising you for every little utterance of yours
     
    I hope you have luck finding one to do so.

    1. The Germany article says nothing about HBD. Occam’s razor would make most normal folk attribute this to the tremendous differences in political and religious climates these areas have experienced over the last millennium. Catholicism vs Protestantism, Prussia vs Austria-Hungary vs little city states, Germanic homogeneity vs exposure to the Slavic borderzone and so on.

    2. The Korea article is brazen in its abuse of statistical reasoning. Do you know what a Null hypothesis is? If you are claiming there is a genetic difference, it is incumbent upon YOU to prove it. I do not need to prove similarity – the null hypothesis is ALWAYS the baseline assumption in a Frequentist approach. And the overwhelming Bayesian prior, especially in this case where a fairly homogenous country was split apart by a war, is that the people of the DPRK and the ROK have very similar genetics.

    3. Historical accidents come from just that, accidents. Winter snowstorms which halt an army’s march. Language barriers which prevent the spread of ideologies. Staple crops which are differentially affected by blight in any given year. Monsoon rains which fail in some areas and not in others, causing peasant revolts here and not there. Empires which exhaust their resources on one war, and find themselves overwhelmed by a new threat.

    And what is not caused by accident, can be explained by culture. Europeans were not necessarily predisposed to Christianity, they just happened to be under the rule of an empire which was taken over by Christians. Iranians were not predisposed to either Zoroastrianism or Islam, they just had it rammed down their throats by their emperors.

    Was there something genetic about West Punjabis that made them Muslim, while East Punjabis became Sikhs? HBD explains West Bengalis being Hindu, while East Bengalis became Muslim? If the Reconquista hadn’t succeeded, you would have said there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them predisposed to accepting Islam. Now you would say there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them unsuited to Islam, while their cousins across the straits of Gibraltar were a better fit.

    None of those explanations can be completely falsified, but it takes a special kind of kook to think that genetic factors are the major explanations for a region’s politico-religious 0utlay.

    There are no grand theories to be drawn from these random patterns. You and hbdchick remind me of children looking up at the clouds and imagining flowers and puppies and faces.

    Again, you have interesting ideas. But consider running it by someone with a passing knowledge of scientific analysis before publishing it here. God knows we have enough balderdash from that weird Mexican guy and other assorted loonies on Unz.com. Sailer, Razib and Derbyshire keep the place afloat, but they risk getting drowned out by all this baseless stuff.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Again, you have interesting ideas. But consider running it by someone with a passing knowledge of scientific analysis before publishing it here.
     
    You're probably better off to just stop talking, as you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Go back to my Welcome page and familiarize yourself with everything you see there and all it links to before you comment again. That wasn't a suggestion.
    , @szopen
    Abotu null hypothesis: you are right, except for one thing: we would disagree what is a null hypothesis. For me (and I presume for Jayman too) the null hypothesis is taht if you have two different regions, then there can be genetical differences between them, including perhaps differences resulting in a differences in distribution of different psychological trait. This is a unll hypothesis for me, because it is so obviously consistent with both the real world observation, and is logically resulting from my understanding of evolution and genetics. My null hypothesis is that ANY human populations will differ (even neighbouring villages) as long as there is any barrier (social, geographical) which prevents those populations from constant interbreeding. The claim that South and North Koreans are the same is - for me - the claim so outlandish, so it would require a really convincing proof. For me, the burden of proof is on you.
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  • @JayMan

    Aren’t Jewish people (historically) more clannish than NW Euros?
     
    Ashkenazis are a type of in-betweener group. They have both clannish and WEIRDO attributes (and then, Western Ashkenazis may be less than clannish Eastern Ashkenazis are.)

    Ashkenazis are a type of in-betweener group. They have both clannish and WEIRDO attributes (and then, Western Ashkenazis may be less than clannish Eastern Ashkenazis are.)

    That would make sense, as their history seems to follow cycles of inbreeding and outbreeding. For example, the Radhanites of the Dark Ages, the theorized founding population of Ashkenazim, surely had the means to outbreed like crazy. Indeed we find everything from and between “NW Euro” to East Asian in their ancestry.

    I feel like too many, when it comes to Ashkenazi Jews, focus too much on their history of inbreeding, while overlooking what’s most unique about Ashkenazi breeding patterns historically (in that it is the combination/fluctuation of the two which makes them such an outlier in so many regards).

    When you look at the Dark Ages, all the way up to Russia, its almost as if they (the Ashkenazi) were a eugenically globalized man (which correlates with individualism obviously), of sorts, and then duplicated via heavy inbreeding, in spurts (to put it crudely). I find it extremely fascinating, unfortunately I haven’t seen HBD chick talking much about it specifically, would you happen to know of a source?

    Furthermore, it is interesting how the Wasp historically spread physical disease, and the Ashkenazi ideological, yet egalitarianism, at least relatively and generally speaking, seems to only come and go with the former. That is a whole nother discussion though I’m sure.

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  • 2. NW Europeans

    There’s no denying that Europeans in general, specifically Northern Europeans contributed much to the advancement of Humans civilization in the past centuries. It is also understandable if they feel proud of their achievement. However if you go on to explain why Evolution proceeds quicker in NW Europeans and their creativity stems from their hereditary traits or “WEIRDOS” trait, I suggest you pause it there because it’s not clannish or weirdo behavior that propelled them to become 21st century weirdos, it’s an accumulated wealth that propels them into becoming one.

    Now let’s look at all the beautiful world maps you put up there.
    IQ map shows a bit of distribution across the globe except Africa. NE Asians have the highest IQs whereas Africa has the lowest IQ. That’s not the point here. The point is IQ is relatively distributed across the globe.

    Now let’s look at all the other maps.
    Nobel Prizes,
    Field Medals,
    Scientific Publications,
    Patents applications,

    They all seem to cluster in Europeans countries, especially NW Europeans. Impressive, isn’t it? It is so astounding that out of so many nations, and countries on Earth, only those tiny countries from Europe stood out to contribute much to Science.

    You know what would explain? Just show the one giant map with countries that had “COLONIZE” other countries and accumulated wealth over time. That giant maps will explain in no time why we are seeing this lopsided distribution of NW Europeans contribution to Science in the past centuries.

    As I commented above, the world maps (Nobel Prize, Field Medal, Pubs, Patents), they are not the result of hereditary traits. They are the offshoot of pre-existing wealth conditions.

    If you dare, do the world map before Industrial revolution on these categories and check which continents stood out among others;
    1. Civilization (uniting tribal groups one after another, and lasting longer)
    2. Vertical movement in an Empire or Monarchy
    3. Spreading indigenous genes across the continent
    (I’d ask why NW Europeans failed to spread their genes to America in the first place? if their weirdo traits are so suited for discoveries and creativity? Why Native Americans genes are not European genes? Yea Bering straits and continent shaft, whatever, but why not NW Europeans genes? The fact that Native American genes belong to Asian genes is some form of hereditary achievement across the continent, don’t you think?)

    Those categories are to be Major Achievements in Human history before science. Now if you put back 21st century lens, you won’t find them major achievement. But I’d say they do stand out as Evolutionary Achievement in certain time point in evolution.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    The fact that those tiny countries could colonise vast areas of the world is as impressive achievement as later contributions to the science, because this fact was enabled by combination of technical advantages, psychological predispositions (and, last but not least, pure luck). Building sea-worthy ship is comparable to any scientific achievement.
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  • @JayMan

    From what I found is what happened to Greek ? The territory that mostly constitute southern Europeans and a bit of mixture from the Middle East? The time when Greek literature (Plato), science (Pythagoras) outperformed their neighboring countries in Europe? Greek must have looked at those Germanic tribes as barbaric, illiterate, waste-of-space population.
     

    What I found is this analysis has its own merit, but remember, you are only picking up the periods of time when NW Europeans contribute much to the development and advancement of human civilization. If you go back further than that, I’m sure NW Europeans will be fighting with polar bears, let alone composing classical music.
     
    I edited the post to answer this question.

    I read your edited post and agreed that if we brought up certain events happened from time immemorial, we can argue forever which event is which.

    Not nitpicking over semantics, however I gathered that you are saying Evolution happened a lot faster these days than what had happened a thousand years ago. Therefore, NW Europeans have appeared to evolve scientifically and artistically than the rest of the racial groups during the past centuries, supported by their wealth, achievement, IQ, Nobel, etc etc.

    This is a summary of your post in one paragraph. It seems plausible and ego-stroking article for NW Europeans for sure, assuming a human with an average life-span of 70 years, can now look back 400 years of their achievement and feel good whatever that stroke.

    I will argue 2 issues; Evolution and NW Europeans.

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same. Either you go back in time 1000 or 5000 years, you will only understand when you put yourself into contemporary subjects. Since this is scientific perspective, bear with me one this. When you think back what happened an hour ago, you don’t actually need an hour in order to “reflect” or “think back”. Within a flash of second, you remember what happened an hour ago. The same goes for thinking about what happened yesterday. You don’t need 24 hours to think back what happened yesterday. Now think about what happened a year ago. Do you need 365 days to think back? Memory might be blurry, the fact of the matter here is all those time scale: 1 hour, 24 hours, 365 days, you spent those times as time goes by. Your grand grand parents who had lived on this Earth also went by those time scale. An hour they had lived thousands years ago on this Earth is the same hour we are experience these days. But to think back time immemorial, we don’t need to travel back, we just need a flash of second to reflect what had happened previously. That’s when this “Evolution proceeds quicker than you think” problem kicks in.

    Do you think a human who had lived 10,000 years ago evolve slowly than we do today? The evolutionary angle we are now looking at is so simple; we tend to look at it from scientific advancement and materialistic achievement. Now pause here. Let’s reflect.

    You wake up in the morning, have breakfast, read the news, go for work, walk up straight, smile at other pedestrians you come across. That’s normal for today. Now put yourself back in stone age or whatever age. You woke up in a cave, the cave that you arduously searched in the wilderness to protect yourself because you had to run to death the other day from the wild animals chasing you. You felt some sensation called “hunger” in your stomach. You had no idea what to put something in your mouth. So you grabbed a bunch of leaves protruding from the stone cracks, put into your mouth, and that’s how you started experimenting with different kinds of edible things putting into your mouth.

    You went out to navigate the territory; you came across another feather that looked exactly like you. Are you going to smile at him? or are you going to be anxious that he’s going to kill you and eat you? or how do you communicate? by British English? ok that’s a joke.

    So coming back to our question of evolution and its speed; the simple thing that we take for granted these days, waking up without worries, be able to smile at fellow human beings, communicating through language, traveling from destination to destination, they all constitute “Evolutionary Achievement” over thousands of years.

    From your standpoint, you are discounting those evolutionary achievement with the current evolution. For eg., developing a bona fide language for the first time in human history for communication will take years to become functionally effective. But the offshoot of the existing language is merely “evolution”, unless it is entirely different in nature. So NW Europeans, did they develop their communication language earlier than the rest of the human race? like they became verbal, began asking questions out of curiosity?

    The bottom line is Evolution proceeds as the same speed as it did thousands of years ago. What you observed from NW Europeans are not evolutionary traits. They are offshoots of pre-existing conditions, or vis a vis accumulated wealth, which I commented in next.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same.
     
    Do you bother to read the things I point you to? Check out The 10,000 Year Explosion for a discussion on Fisherian acceleration.

    But then, from the rest of your comment, it doesn't sound like you understand the first thing about evolution or natural selection to begin with. Perhaps you may want to start more basic.

    , @anon

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same.
     
    Evolution speed depends on effective population size: more people = more random mutations.

    It will also depend on selection pressure. If the environment remains the same then even if the population increases there may be no reason to select for the new mutations.

    If the environment changes e.g. due to the change in marriage pattern in NW Europe, then that might create new selection pressures on both old and any new random mutations.
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  • @thinkingaboutit
    Good god, man. Are eastern and western Germany biologically predisposed to communism and capitalism respectively? The koreas? Athens and Sparta?
    Accidents of history are rarely given the weight they deserve.
    You really need someone to intellectually challenge you, instead of praising you for every little utterance of yours. You have some interesting ideas, but you need honest critique, not a bunch of yes men.

    Good god, man. Are eastern and western Germany biologically predisposed to communism and capitalism respectively? The koreas? Athens and Sparta?

    Germania’s Seed?

    Stop Saying North and South Koreans Are Necessarily Completely Identical Populations

    “l’explication de l’idéologie” | hbd chick

    Accidents of history are rarely given the weight they deserve.

    Where do historical accidents come from?

    You really need someone to intellectually challenge you, instead of praising you for every little utterance of yours

    I hope you have luck finding one to do so.

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    • Replies: @thinkingabout it
    1. The Germany article says nothing about HBD. Occam's razor would make most normal folk attribute this to the tremendous differences in political and religious climates these areas have experienced over the last millennium. Catholicism vs Protestantism, Prussia vs Austria-Hungary vs little city states, Germanic homogeneity vs exposure to the Slavic borderzone and so on.

    2. The Korea article is brazen in its abuse of statistical reasoning. Do you know what a Null hypothesis is? If you are claiming there is a genetic difference, it is incumbent upon YOU to prove it. I do not need to prove similarity - the null hypothesis is ALWAYS the baseline assumption in a Frequentist approach. And the overwhelming Bayesian prior, especially in this case where a fairly homogenous country was split apart by a war, is that the people of the DPRK and the ROK have very similar genetics.

    3. Historical accidents come from just that, accidents. Winter snowstorms which halt an army's march. Language barriers which prevent the spread of ideologies. Staple crops which are differentially affected by blight in any given year. Monsoon rains which fail in some areas and not in others, causing peasant revolts here and not there. Empires which exhaust their resources on one war, and find themselves overwhelmed by a new threat.

    And what is not caused by accident, can be explained by culture. Europeans were not necessarily predisposed to Christianity, they just happened to be under the rule of an empire which was taken over by Christians. Iranians were not predisposed to either Zoroastrianism or Islam, they just had it rammed down their throats by their emperors.

    Was there something genetic about West Punjabis that made them Muslim, while East Punjabis became Sikhs? HBD explains West Bengalis being Hindu, while East Bengalis became Muslim? If the Reconquista hadn't succeeded, you would have said there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them predisposed to accepting Islam. Now you would say there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them unsuited to Islam, while their cousins across the straits of Gibraltar were a better fit.

    None of those explanations can be completely falsified, but it takes a special kind of kook to think that genetic factors are the major explanations for a region's politico-religious 0utlay.

    There are no grand theories to be drawn from these random patterns. You and hbdchick remind me of children looking up at the clouds and imagining flowers and puppies and faces.

    Again, you have interesting ideas. But consider running it by someone with a passing knowledge of scientific analysis before publishing it here. God knows we have enough balderdash from that weird Mexican guy and other assorted loonies on Unz.com. Sailer, Razib and Derbyshire keep the place afloat, but they risk getting drowned out by all this baseless stuff.
    , @Rdm

    Stop Saying North and South Koreans Are Necessarily Completely Identical Populations
     
    Ugh, what in the world am I living that North and South Koreans, East and West Germans are biologically and genetically as distinct as Blacks and Whites?
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  • @Anatoly Karlin

    It’s pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.
     
    No, that's not clear at all.

    Nisbett himself portrays it as a Europe vs. East Asia difference. As the anonymous fellow below points out, both Islamic and Indic civilizations tend towards the abstract end of the spectrum, despite being far more clannish than East Asian peoples (whose real level of clannishness you frankly overstate: East Asians punish antisocial behavior almost to the same extent as do Hajnal Europeans; the level of everyday corruption in Japan, Korea, and even China is far closer to Hajnal European levels than to India or any random country in the Middle East; etc).

    What is another personality trait, however, that could explain a preference for holistic as opposed to abstract thinking? Curiosity - which has now thanks to Kura et al. been shown to be likely systemically lower amongst Mongoloids vs. Caucasoids by one or two S.D.'s.

    It wasn’t the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn’t last long, for some reason.
     
    Ibn Khaldun was as Arab as they come.

    Anyway, excessive inbreeding causes IQ drops. IQ drops = ever tinier smart fractions = scientific progress stops. After Islam inbreeding increased, IQ must have gradually dropped over the centuries, and so the Islamic Golden Age ended.

    This IQ drop would be enough to explain it, clannishness per se is superfluous.

    In the definition HBD Chick and I use, and as should be make abundantly clear by the maps, Northern Italy = NW Europe. “NW Europe” here refers to the region enclosed by the Hajnal line... I think HBD Chick well covered that the Scandinavians were late-comers to the WEIRDO world, but they came with a vengeance when they did.
     
    The Protestant Reformation was associated with northern revulsion against the perceived corruption and politicking of the Catholic Church. Southerners tended to be okay with that - they didn't turn Protestant, at any rate - whereas northerners almost universally turned Catholic. To this extent, northerners were already WEIRDer than southern Europeans, including northern Italians.

    Another marker frequently used in the HBDsphere to proxy clannishness is murder/violence rates. Renaissance Italy was extremely violent. Most likely so was Ancient Greece. Ancient Rome we know certainly was (see Apuleius' The Golden Ass). Nonetheless, it was orders of magnitude more scientifically productive than Scandinavia.

    Why? Most likely because in 1500 Scandinavians were 99% illiterate hicks, while 20-25% of Northern Italians were literate townsmen, merchants, etc.

    Nope. This post makes it clear that that position is untenable.
     
    Just to make it clear: You believe that a society with 1% literacy versus a society with 20% literacy is no big deal when it comes to scientific creativity?

    No, that’s not clear at all.

    Nisbett himself portrays it as a Europe vs. East Asia difference. As the anonymous fellow below points out, both Islamic and Indic civilizations tend towards the abstract end of the spectrum,

    Sure, we need more of these tests from the rest of the non-WEIRDO world.

    East Asians punish antisocial behavior almost to the same extent as do Hajnal Europeans; the level of everyday corruption in Japan, Korea, and even China is far closer to Hajnal European levels than to India or any random country in the Middle East; etc).

    China? No way. Japan and South Korea, maybe, on the low end. In the end, it’s all a matter of how good our measures of corruption are, and I don’t think they’re good enought to nitpick too closely.

    As for punishment, well the East Asian countries went through a genetic pacification process similar to the ones NW Europeans went through. This makes them less violent, but not necessarily less corrupt (especially the Chinese).

    What is another personality trait, however, that could explain a preference for holistic as opposed to abstract thinking? Curiosity – which has now thanks to Kura et al. been shown to be likely systemically lower amongst Mongoloids vs. Caucasoids by one or two S.D.’s.

    I say tomato… My point is that there are deep systematic differences in the mentality of different peoples across the world. These differences will be reflected in many aspects. It’s important to remember that the measures – including clannishness – are approximations of the reality. To claim it’s just one little personality trait that makes all the difference (note, clannishness is a suite of traits) is oversimplification.

    Anyway, excessive inbreeding causes IQ drops. IQ drops = ever tinier smart fractions = scientific progress stops. After Islam inbreeding increased, IQ must have gradually dropped over the centuries, and so the Islamic Golden Age ended.

    Indeed. Though I think we’ll be investigating the cause of this for some time.

    This IQ drop would be enough to explain it, clannishness per se is superfluous.

    This goes back to East Asia (and for that matter, Eastern Europe). The Chinese are quite inbred, yet IQ is comparable to NW Euro levels, yet lackluster performance. Inbreeding doesn’t always lead to lower IQ (especially in face of counteracting selection).

    To this extent, northerners were already WEIRDer than southern Europeans, including northern Italians.

    Yes.

    Another marker frequently used in the HBDsphere to proxy clannishness is murder/violence rates. Renaissance Italy was extremely violent.

    The two are correlated but distinct. Again, see China.

    Why? Most likely because in 1500 Scandinavians were 99% illiterate hicks, while 20-25% of Northern Italians were literate townsmen, merchants, etc.

    The rapid decline in violence in Scandinavia around that time shows there was a period of intense selection acting on them then.

    Just to make it clear: You believe that a society with 1% literacy versus a society with 20% literacy is no big deal when it comes to scientific creativity?

    Genetic potential is an important concept.

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  • @Wizard of Oz
    I was surprised that you didn't ask what list of 10 fallacies he resorted to. Zero an "Arab" or "Arabic" concept? Try Indian or maybe Sumerian. Mathematics started in the 7th century (sic)!!! Anyway mathematics has nothing intrinsically to do with the scientific method or any empirical connection to the real world any more than the alphabet.

    Oldest universities? I was amused to see 1453 as the founding date on a university building in Istanbul but of course Bologna stakes the best claim in Europe at 1088 and there are lots of lists online - but not one I can find that gives plausibility to Biff's claims.

    As to the achievements of Islam's glory days it seems to be true that the Arabic of illiterates like the Prophet had become the language of learning and intellectual achievement but that was often the work of Christians and Jews. So..... Arabic, rather than Arab, and not necessarily Muslim.

    Nassim Taleb has pointed out that most of the scholars during Islam’s “glory days” were Persian, not Arabic.

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  • @JayMan

    Europe’s achievements are perhaps, in part, biological, but they cannot be separated from the tremendous benefit that Europe’s unique cultural institutions supplied.
     
    WHERE THE FUCK DO CULTURAL INSTITUTIONS COME FROM?

    Why are the commenters to this entry so stupid?

    Good god, man. Are eastern and western Germany biologically predisposed to communism and capitalism respectively? The koreas? Athens and Sparta?
    Accidents of history are rarely given the weight they deserve.
    You really need someone to intellectually challenge you, instead of praising you for every little utterance of yours. You have some interesting ideas, but you need honest critique, not a bunch of yes men.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Good god, man. Are eastern and western Germany biologically predisposed to communism and capitalism respectively? The koreas? Athens and Sparta?
     
    Germania’s Seed?

    Stop Saying North and South Koreans Are Necessarily Completely Identical Populations

    “l’explication de l’idéologie” | hbd chick


    Accidents of history are rarely given the weight they deserve.
     
    Where do historical accidents come from?

    You really need someone to intellectually challenge you, instead of praising you for every little utterance of yours
     
    I hope you have luck finding one to do so.
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  • @Reg Cæsar
    The flip side of Nordic death metal is the utterly poppish quality of Scandinavian orchestral music: Grieg, Alfvén, Nielsen, Halvorsen, the Swedish-American Leroy Anderson. Sibelius was part-Swede as well. Very easy listening.

    The pop music scene also produced ABBA, Roxette, Ace of Base, a-ha and the like. The folk songs can be quite dark-- or nursery-rhymy.

    It's almost as if manic-depression is their musical template. The normally comic, goofball Harry Nilsson, another Swedish-American, had his biggest hit in "Without You", which sounded, ironically, far more suicidal than the Badfinger original.
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  • @JayMan

    I don’t think black creativity is only extroversion, but that’s definitely a big part of it.
     
    Does extroversion per se make you better at improvisation? I'm not sure it does.

    . I could pull an evo psych explanation out of my ass about blacks undergoing sexual selection in Africa which made them better dancers and singers,
     
    That's not evo-psych, that's HBD. And I suspect that that was the case.

    And can you clarify a little more why Western openness now makes them holists, particularly since the 1960s?
     
    Openness to experience is in good part about embracing all sorts of unconventional, and indeed, weird (small letters – big letters too) things.

    Lastly, you seem to want to want to reduce all cultural variation to clannish vs. non-clannish, but as you know, there’s significant variation among clannish peoples. The clannish shame cultures of East Asia are just as far away from the clannish honor cultures of West Asia, Africa, and Latin America as they are from the guilt cultures of western Europe.
     
    Did I say that? But in the grand map of the world, clannishness is one aspect where NW Europeans stand decidedly apart from the rest.

    As a musician (I know some others here are too), I am actually curious about your thoughts here. What does make a good improviser? Low latent inhibition? Situational awareness? A talent for bullshit?

    I’m wondering if it’s related to seduction somehow :)

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  • @JayMan

    The thing is you don’t really need “clannishness” to explain any of this (except insofar as in extreme inbreeding cases it begins to greatly lower overall IQ leading to much smaller smart fractions).
     
    It's pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.

    Ancient Greeks did a lot of abstract thinking, and produced the greatest cultural/scientific peak until the Renaissance (according to the same Charles Murray’s figures).
     
    Ancient Greeks were quite different than modern Greeks. And how clannish were the ancients?

    During the Middle Ages, in pure scientific terms, the Islamic world was most advanced.
     
    It wasn't the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn't last long, for some reason.

    The Renaissance began in northern Italy. Only in the 17th century did the bulk of scientific discoveries move to NW Europe.
     
    In the definition HBD Chick and I use, and as should be make abundantly clear by the maps, Northern Italy = NW Europe. "NW Europe" here refers to the region enclosed by the Hajnal line.

    North Italians are not Middle Easterners in the clannishness department, but they are most certainly not Englishmen or Swedes either.
     
    Yes, that's something this post should make clear. Degrees...

    The Swedes at that time however were about 1% literate (can’t have much literacy in a low-density, rural environment at that level of development) whereas the literacy rate in Renaissance Italy was more like 20%.
     
    I think HBD Chick well covered that the Scandinavians were late-comers to the WEIRDO world, but they came with a vengeance when they did. Apparently, there was a period of intense selection for WEIRDO-ness in Scandinavia.

    Scientific creativity is much more likely a simple function of smart fractions * literacy race,
     
    Nope. This post makes it clear that that position is untenable.

    In modern times, relative wealth levels would play a greater part
     
    Two words: East Asia (relative wealth roughly the same in Japan, for example). And besides, where does relative wealth come from?

    It’s pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.

    No, that’s not clear at all.

    Nisbett himself portrays it as a Europe vs. East Asia difference. As the anonymous fellow below points out, both Islamic and Indic civilizations tend towards the abstract end of the spectrum, despite being far more clannish than East Asian peoples (whose real level of clannishness you frankly overstate: East Asians punish antisocial behavior almost to the same extent as do Hajnal Europeans; the level of everyday corruption in Japan, Korea, and even China is far closer to Hajnal European levels than to India or any random country in the Middle East; etc).

    What is another personality trait, however, that could explain a preference for holistic as opposed to abstract thinking? Curiosity – which has now thanks to Kura et al. been shown to be likely systemically lower amongst Mongoloids vs. Caucasoids by one or two S.D.’s.

    It wasn’t the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn’t last long, for some reason.

    Ibn Khaldun was as Arab as they come.

    Anyway, excessive inbreeding causes IQ drops. IQ drops = ever tinier smart fractions = scientific progress stops. After Islam inbreeding increased, IQ must have gradually dropped over the centuries, and so the Islamic Golden Age ended.

    This IQ drop would be enough to explain it, clannishness per se is superfluous.

    In the definition HBD Chick and I use, and as should be make abundantly clear by the maps, Northern Italy = NW Europe. “NW Europe” here refers to the region enclosed by the Hajnal line… I think HBD Chick well covered that the Scandinavians were late-comers to the WEIRDO world, but they came with a vengeance when they did.

    The Protestant Reformation was associated with northern revulsion against the perceived corruption and politicking of the Catholic Church. Southerners tended to be okay with that – they didn’t turn Protestant, at any rate – whereas northerners almost universally turned Catholic. To this extent, northerners were already WEIRDer than southern Europeans, including northern Italians.

    Another marker frequently used in the HBDsphere to proxy clannishness is murder/violence rates. Renaissance Italy was extremely violent. Most likely so was Ancient Greece. Ancient Rome we know certainly was (see Apuleius’ The Golden Ass). Nonetheless, it was orders of magnitude more scientifically productive than Scandinavia.

    Why? Most likely because in 1500 Scandinavians were 99% illiterate hicks, while 20-25% of Northern Italians were literate townsmen, merchants, etc.

    Nope. This post makes it clear that that position is untenable.

    Just to make it clear: You believe that a society with 1% literacy versus a society with 20% literacy is no big deal when it comes to scientific creativity?

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    No, that’s not clear at all.

    Nisbett himself portrays it as a Europe vs. East Asia difference. As the anonymous fellow below points out, both Islamic and Indic civilizations tend towards the abstract end of the spectrum,
     

    Sure, we need more of these tests from the rest of the non-WEIRDO world.

    East Asians punish antisocial behavior almost to the same extent as do Hajnal Europeans; the level of everyday corruption in Japan, Korea, and even China is far closer to Hajnal European levels than to India or any random country in the Middle East; etc).
     
    China? No way. Japan and South Korea, maybe, on the low end. In the end, it's all a matter of how good our measures of corruption are, and I don't think they're good enought to nitpick too closely.

    As for punishment, well the East Asian countries went through a genetic pacification process similar to the ones NW Europeans went through. This makes them less violent, but not necessarily less corrupt (especially the Chinese).


    What is another personality trait, however, that could explain a preference for holistic as opposed to abstract thinking? Curiosity – which has now thanks to Kura et al. been shown to be likely systemically lower amongst Mongoloids vs. Caucasoids by one or two S.D.’s.
     
    I say tomato... My point is that there are deep systematic differences in the mentality of different peoples across the world. These differences will be reflected in many aspects. It's important to remember that the measures – including clannishness – are approximations of the reality. To claim it's just one little personality trait that makes all the difference (note, clannishness is a suite of traits) is oversimplification.

    Anyway, excessive inbreeding causes IQ drops. IQ drops = ever tinier smart fractions = scientific progress stops. After Islam inbreeding increased, IQ must have gradually dropped over the centuries, and so the Islamic Golden Age ended.
     
    Indeed. Though I think we'll be investigating the cause of this for some time.

    This IQ drop would be enough to explain it, clannishness per se is superfluous.
     
    This goes back to East Asia (and for that matter, Eastern Europe). The Chinese are quite inbred, yet IQ is comparable to NW Euro levels, yet lackluster performance. Inbreeding doesn't always lead to lower IQ (especially in face of counteracting selection).

    To this extent, northerners were already WEIRDer than southern Europeans, including northern Italians.
     
    Yes.

    Another marker frequently used in the HBDsphere to proxy clannishness is murder/violence rates. Renaissance Italy was extremely violent.
     
    The two are correlated but distinct. Again, see China.

    Why? Most likely because in 1500 Scandinavians were 99% illiterate hicks, while 20-25% of Northern Italians were literate townsmen, merchants, etc.
     
    The rapid decline in violence in Scandinavia around that time shows there was a period of intense selection acting on them then.

    Just to make it clear: You believe that a society with 1% literacy versus a society with 20% literacy is no big deal when it comes to scientific creativity?
     
    Genetic potential is an important concept.
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  • @JayMan

    Science is based on mathmatics and that began in the middle east in the 7th century. The two oldest universities are in Turkey and Iraq. Algerbra is an Arab term. The concept of zero is Arabic. You aren’t going to get to the moon using Roman numerals.
     
    When there is information from previous sources available, it will be utilized by future people. Knowledge is cumulative. But modern Western science doesn't form a direct continuity with the Islamic golden age.

    All that is besides the point anyway. What trajectory those societies follow since that time?

    I was surprised that you didn’t ask what list of 10 fallacies he resorted to. Zero an “Arab” or “Arabic” concept? Try Indian or maybe Sumerian. Mathematics started in the 7th century (sic)!!! Anyway mathematics has nothing intrinsically to do with the scientific method or any empirical connection to the real world any more than the alphabet.

    Oldest universities? I was amused to see 1453 as the founding date on a university building in Istanbul but of course Bologna stakes the best claim in Europe at 1088 and there are lots of lists online – but not one I can find that gives plausibility to Biff’s claims.

    As to the achievements of Islam’s glory days it seems to be true that the Arabic of illiterates like the Prophet had become the language of learning and intellectual achievement but that was often the work of Christians and Jews. So….. Arabic, rather than Arab, and not necessarily Muslim.

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    • Replies: @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    Nassim Taleb has pointed out that most of the scholars during Islam's "glory days" were Persian, not Arabic.
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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    You posit that NW Europeans are better than NE Asians in abstract thinking yet most people would say Asians have better aptitude for the quintessential abstract field – Math.

    It’s true that Asians lag in Field’s Medals, but is that enough to counter what we see in Math Olympiads, test scores, representation in STEM, and most people’s personal experience?

    How about in coding?

    I would also like to see the m/f difference in Holistic vs Abstract reasoning.

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  • @JayMan

    At first glance the idea that clannishness is opposed to high trust invites questions. After all family and clan require trust and punishment of betrayal of trust to get the benefit out of belonging to the clan.

    So, to start with, is even the presumption of trust and loyalty within the clan incorrect?
     

    This is why I put the note to read the links in the beginning of the post. But yes, in clannish societies, there is generally high trust within the clan, but lower trust between clans.

    Are the dynamics of large families, and even larger much extended clannish families, such as to produce friction, tension and dislike?
     
    Well clannish people tend to be more antagonistic and aggressive, so family life is often more acrimonious than in WEIRDO families just for that reason.

    Thanks and apologies for not having done my prescribed homework.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @JayMan

    Which data or definition of science do you have in mind? It’s not clear to me how you could read the many histories of science and thought, as well as the writings of early NW European philosophers and natural philosophers, and conclude that science was only invented 3 or 4 hundred years ago in NW Europe.
     
    Modern science started with Galileo, Newton, and others in that era.

    Look, this is foolish, I'm not engaging in this semantic quibble, which is extremely tangential to what I'm discussing here. I'd advise you to drop it, last warning.

    It’s not a mere semantic quibble though. Galileo disagreed with the predominant Aristotelian physics of his day, but he was very much working in the tradition of physics first established and systematized in the West by Aristotle. Newton’s calculus was completely geometrical, which didn’t originate with Newton but goes back to the Greeks. Etc.

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  • @Anonymous
    Possible counter-examples and historical discrepancies seem to be casually hand waved away or altered to maintain the theory.

    Which data or definition of science do you have in mind? It's not clear to me how you could read the many histories of science and thought, as well as the writings of early NW European philosophers and natural philosophers, and conclude that science was only invented 3 or 4 hundred years ago in NW Europe.

    Which data or definition of science do you have in mind? It’s not clear to me how you could read the many histories of science and thought, as well as the writings of early NW European philosophers and natural philosophers, and conclude that science was only invented 3 or 4 hundred years ago in NW Europe.

    Modern science started with Galileo, Newton, and others in that era.

    Look, this is foolish, I’m not engaging in this semantic quibble, which is extremely tangential to what I’m discussing here. I’d advise you to drop it, last warning.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It's not a mere semantic quibble though. Galileo disagreed with the predominant Aristotelian physics of his day, but he was very much working in the tradition of physics first established and systematized in the West by Aristotle. Newton's calculus was completely geometrical, which didn't originate with Newton but goes back to the Greeks. Etc.
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  • @Seneca
    As a dedicated but amateur jazz musician (who has preformed with some great jazz musicians over the years) I have noticed this also and thought about it a little.

    In my opinion because jazz involves rapid musical improvisation, most other musicians who play an instrument either can appreciate or admire a good jazz performance. They can appreciate how difficult it is and marvel at the performer. It's akin to watching a great athlete improvise, but instead you are "listening" instead of watching. The effect of a great soloist can be hypnotic, to those well versed enough in the language of music to appreciate what he is doing.

    If you think of music as a language, then non- musicians or casual listeners simply often cannot process complex musical information. They don't understand or are not familiar enough with the language to appreciate what is being communicated or its subtleties. Thus, jazz improvisation (particularly the more complex kinds) simply sounds like noise or nothing special to the average non-musician.

    To be sure I have met jazz fans who are not musicians or do not have a musical background, but in my experience they seem less common.

    Thanks that makes a lot of sense.

    Sounds like that may have been my problem with other things as well. I’ve tried reading things like Thomas Pynchon’s stuff over the years. Usually I wind up chucking it against a wall and not finishing it. But I’ve probably read “A Princess of Mars”… twenty? thirty? times.

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  • @JayMan

    Evolution works a lot faster than JayMan supposes. The illegitimacy rate of whites in the US today is almost double that of blacks in 1960.
     
    That's not evolution (though it is a result of evolution). See the breeder's equation above.

    Yes, I was just kidding. But if not HBD, what’s left? Environmental factors, human choice, then what?

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  • @JayMan

    For one, I’m not sure we can say Northwestern Europeans are the most creative people in the world. Blacks have demonstrated substantial creativity, particularly in music and entertainment.

    I would argue that blacks’ “creativity” is mostly a function of their high extroversion. In the fields where they predominate, like popular music and comedy, they tend to specialize in certain areas: in popular music, mostly improvisational (jazz) or syncopated dance music (R&B, hip-hop).
     

    I don't think it's simply a matter of extroversion.

    Of course, you don’t see see too many in Swedish death metal.
     
    About that (almost added this to the post):

    https://twitter.com/JayMan471/statuses/508328358669987840

    Same pattern as the rest. I know some fool out there will claim that the way to win more Nobel prizes is to listen to more heavy metal.


    As a final note: you’ve laid out brilliantly that Westerners = reductionistic, and Easterners = holistic. But what explains Westerners fascination with Eastern holism since the 1960s, particularly among those high in openness? (in the form of Eastern religion, New Age, systems theory, vegetarianism, etc.)
     
    Yup.

    Oh, second final note: This all makes perfect sense, but it would be good get to get as much data as possible to back up your assertions (which you’ve done a lot already); people will claim that you’re inventing ad-hoc reasons for East Asian weakness in sciences despite their higher intelligence. And then they’ll say you’re raaaaay-cist!
     
    The data speak for themselves.

    The flip side of Nordic death metal is the utterly poppish quality of Scandinavian orchestral music: Grieg, Alfvén, Nielsen, Halvorsen, the Swedish-American Leroy Anderson. Sibelius was part-Swede as well. Very easy listening.

    The pop music scene also produced ABBA, Roxette, Ace of Base, a-ha and the like. The folk songs can be quite dark– or nursery-rhymy.

    It’s almost as if manic-depression is their musical template. The normally comic, goofball Harry Nilsson, another Swedish-American, had his biggest hit in “Without You”, which sounded, ironically, far more suicidal than the Badfinger original.

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    • Replies: @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    I read this recently:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/10/why-is-sweden-so-good-at-pop-music/280945/
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  • @Reg Cæsar
    Evolution works a lot faster than JayMan supposes. The illegitimacy rate of whites in the US today is almost double that of blacks in 1960. Total collapse in two generations!

    Evolution works a lot faster than JayMan supposes. The illegitimacy rate of whites in the US today is almost double that of blacks in 1960.

    That’s not evolution (though it is a result of evolution). See the breeder’s equation above.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Yes, I was just kidding. But if not HBD, what's left? Environmental factors, human choice, then what?
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  • @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    I don't think black creativity is only extroversion, but that's definitely a big part of it. I could pull an evo psych explanation out of my ass about blacks undergoing sexual selection in Africa which made them better dancers and singers, but that's all just speculation.

    And can you clarify a little more why Western openness now makes them holists, particularly since the 1960s? (although Western holism can probably be traced back further to American transcendentalism and German Idealism)

    Lastly, you seem to want to want to reduce all cultural variation to clannish vs. non-clannish, but as you know, there's significant variation among clannish peoples. The clannish shame cultures of East Asia are just as far away from the clannish honor cultures of West Asia, Africa, and Latin America as they are from the guilt cultures of western Europe. I hope you talk about that a little more.

    I don’t think black creativity is only extroversion, but that’s definitely a big part of it.

    Does extroversion per se make you better at improvisation? I’m not sure it does.

    . I could pull an evo psych explanation out of my ass about blacks undergoing sexual selection in Africa which made them better dancers and singers,

    That’s not evo-psych, that’s HBD. And I suspect that that was the case.

    And can you clarify a little more why Western openness now makes them holists, particularly since the 1960s?

    Openness to experience is in good part about embracing all sorts of unconventional, and indeed, weird (small letters – big letters too) things.

    Lastly, you seem to want to want to reduce all cultural variation to clannish vs. non-clannish, but as you know, there’s significant variation among clannish peoples. The clannish shame cultures of East Asia are just as far away from the clannish honor cultures of West Asia, Africa, and Latin America as they are from the guilt cultures of western Europe.

    Did I say that? But in the grand map of the world, clannishness is one aspect where NW Europeans stand decidedly apart from the rest.

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    • Replies: @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    As a musician (I know some others here are too), I am actually curious about your thoughts here. What does make a good improviser? Low latent inhibition? Situational awareness? A talent for bullshit?

    I'm wondering if it's related to seduction somehow :)

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