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    Several years ago a paper was published, The History of African Gene Flow into Southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews: Previous genetic studies have suggested a history of sub-Saharan African gene flow into some West Eurasian populations after the initial dispersal out of Africa that occurred at least 45,000 years ago. However, there has been no...
  • Here is another Hispanic I am sure Clyde would have classified as a pure Conquistador just based on her phenotype alone, but her DNA tells a different story. She is 23 percent Sub Saharan African.

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  • “Along with that very informative Cuban poster who set me straight on all this. You know what Andy Garcia and the Castro Brothers look like.”

    Phenotype is not exactly the best indicator of White racial purity in Cuba and Latin America.

    When Eva Longoria for example took a DNA test, it was revealed that she is 3 percent Sub Saharan African. I bet you would have pegged her as a racially pure Spaniard Conquistador based on her phenotype.

    The only New World ethnic groups in the Americas that tend to be racially pure Caucasian for the most part are Non Hispanic Whites Americans and White Canadians.

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  • @Jefferson
    "There were five excellent posting by a Cubano here (at isteve) who stated what I conveyed to you about a preponderance of pure Spanish bloodlines in Cuba. I am going to go with him. My European ancestors got here in 1890 so avoiding sub-Saharan admixture was easy. Not difficult for me to conceive that the same thing applied to most Spanish in Cuba.”

    I am going to go with genetic studies which have way more credibility than just the word if mouth your Cubano friend who does not work in the field of DNA.

    According to this study, the average Cuban is 20 percent Sub Saharan African.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/with-mariel-boatlift-ii-looming-how-white-are-the-remaining-cubans/

    So no, most people in Cuba are not pure White. Not even your average Argentinian is pure White and Argentina is often labeled the “Whitest” country in Latin America.

    “Obviously, white Americans with roots here going back three hundred years have lots more chance of having Amerindian and sub-Saharan blood”

    According to genetic studies, 95 percent of Non Hispanic White Americans have no Sub Saharan admixture. The remaining 5 percent only average 1 percent SSA, which is nowhere near the 20 percent SSA of the average Cuban.

    According to this study, the average Cuban is 20 percent Sub Saharan African.`

    I would not be surprised at all. But in whom does this 20% reside? You got enough Cubans who look 50%-8o% black. to mop up that 20% and allow for the pure Spanish blooded clans and families I have been talking about. Along with that very informative Cuban poster who set me straight on all this. You know what Andy Garcia and the Castro Brothers look like. Cuba was full of such people. Of course they had more wealth and worldliness than the Cuban mulattoes and blacks so “the Spanish” left the island first after Fidel Castro took over. Leaving a much blacker/darker island for the Cuban communists to rule.

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  • @Clyde
    There were five excellent posting by a Cubano here (at isteve) who stated what I conveyed to you about a preponderance of pure Spanish bloodlines in Cuba. I am going to go with him. My European ancestors got here in 1890 so avoiding sub-Saharan admixture was easy. Not difficult for me to conceive that the same thing applied to most Spanish in Cuba.
    Obviously, white Americans with roots here going back three hundred years have lots more chance of having Amerindian and sub-Saharan blood in them and same applies even more for Mexico and South America where a lower standard for whiteness applies. I get your point.

    “There were five excellent posting by a Cubano here (at isteve) who stated what I conveyed to you about a preponderance of pure Spanish bloodlines in Cuba. I am going to go with him. My European ancestors got here in 1890 so avoiding sub-Saharan admixture was easy. Not difficult for me to conceive that the same thing applied to most Spanish in Cuba.”

    I am going to go with genetic studies which have way more credibility than just the word if mouth your Cubano friend who does not work in the field of DNA.

    According to this study, the average Cuban is 20 percent Sub Saharan African.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/with-mariel-boatlift-ii-looming-how-white-are-the-remaining-cubans/

    So no, most people in Cuba are not pure White. Not even your average Argentinian is pure White and Argentina is often labeled the “Whitest” country in Latin America.

    “Obviously, white Americans with roots here going back three hundred years have lots more chance of having Amerindian and sub-Saharan blood”

    According to genetic studies, 95 percent of Non Hispanic White Americans have no Sub Saharan admixture. The remaining 5 percent only average 1 percent SSA, which is nowhere near the 20 percent SSA of the average Cuban.

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    • Replies: @Clyde

    According to this study, the average Cuban is 20 percent Sub Saharan African.`
     
    I would not be surprised at all. But in whom does this 20% reside? You got enough Cubans who look 50%-8o% black. to mop up that 20% and allow for the pure Spanish blooded clans and families I have been talking about. Along with that very informative Cuban poster who set me straight on all this. You know what Andy Garcia and the Castro Brothers look like. Cuba was full of such people. Of course they had more wealth and worldliness than the Cuban mulattoes and blacks so "the Spanish" left the island first after Fidel Castro took over. Leaving a much blacker/darker island for the Cuban communists to rule.
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  • There are signals of prehistoric African ancestry in Sardinians based on uniparental markers and HLA data.

    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/341/6145/565.abstract/

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A30-Cw5-B18-DR3-DQ2_%28HLA_Haplotype%29

    HLA A*30 Allele: Peak World Frequencies:-

    Cameroon Podokwo – 29.10%
    Mozambique – 23.90%
    South African Natal Zulu – 19.50%
    Sudan South Nuba – 19.25%
    **ITALY SARDINIA POP.3 – 19.00%**
    CHINA SHANDONG PROVINCE LINQU COUNTY – 18.63%
    Sudan Central Shaigiya Mixed – 18.33%
    Cameroon Uldeme – 17.10%
    South Africa Tswana – 15.90%
    Rwanda – 15.70%
    Ghana Accre Asutuare Akan – 15.10%
    Martinique – 15.00%
    Trinidad African – 14.00%
    USA African American Bethesda – 13.90%
    Nigeria – 13.37%
    Burkina Faso Mossi – 13.20%
    Cameroon Bamileke 2 – 12.90%
    USA OPTN African American – 12.80%
    SAUDI ARABIA – 11.79%
    **FRANCE CORSICA ISLAND – 11.60%**
    Tunisia – 11.20%
    Brazil Parana Afro Brazilian – 11.00%
    Morocco Nador Metalsa Pop.2 – 11.00%
    CHINA SHANDONG PROVINCE – 10.70%
    *SPAIN MURCIA – 10.70%*
    Burkina Faso Rimaibe – 10.60%
    Morocco – 10.10%
    TAIWAN CHINESE IMMIGRANTS FROM NORTH CHINA – 9.80%
    Brazil Rio Grande do Sul Black – 9.60%
    PAKISTAN KALASH – 9.20%
    CHINA JIANGSU PROVINCE – 9.10%
    Morocco Casablanca – 8.90%
    Brazil REDOME Bahia – 8.87%
    JORDAN – 8.70%
    ISRAEL GAZA PALESTINIAN – 8.40%
    MONGOLIA HOTON – 8.20%
    MONGOLIA TARIALAN KHOTON – 8.20%
    Morocco Pop.2 – 7.70%
    *SPAIN GIPUZKOA BASQUE – 7.30%*
    PAKISTAN BALOCH – 7.20%
    TAIWAN CHINESE IMMIGRANTS FROM MIDDLE CHINA – 7.20%
    Cuba Mulatto – 7.10%
    *FRANCE BORDEAUX – 6.61%*
    *ITALY NORTH PAVIA POP.3 – 6.22%*
    *ITALY ROME – 6.00%*
    CHINA SHANGHAI – 6.00%
    *SPAIN SEVILLA – 5.76%*
    *ITALY SOUTH CAMPANIA REGION – 5.71%*
    RUSSIA SAKHALIN ISLAND NIVKHI – 5.70%
    Algeria Pop.2 – 5.66%
    *SPAIN MAJORCA & MINORCA – 5.60%*
    OMAN – 5.50%
    CHINA SHAANXI PROVINCE HAN – 5.50%
    CHINA WUHAN – 5.40%
    *ITALY BERGAMO – 5.30%*
    Cameroon Ewondo – 5.30%
    IRAN ROYAN CORD BLOOD BANK – 5.20%
    SAUDI ARABIA POP.2 – 5.20%
    INDIA JALPAIGURI TOTO – 5.13%
    *PORTUGAL SOUTH – 5.10%*
    SOUTH KOREA POP.1 – 5.10%
    etc. etc.

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  • I think there is an underestimation of ancient admixture in general in the chromosome analysis. Phasing can help somewhat for separating segments between chromosomes, but you still have a problem with the segments that are too short for it to pick up on, which become dissolved in the major ancestral component.

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  • @Jefferson
    "You would be surprised at how many Cuban bloodlines are as pure Spanish as they claim and guarded for. Part of the reason is that many of the Cuban Spanish were not there for hundreds of years risking admixture, but only came from 1880 onward. Not to deny there are many mulattoes in Cuba and many blacks. The Castro brothers rule a darker Island than when they took over in 1959."

    Cuba is not anything special in that regard because you can find pure White people in almost all Latin American countries, but I am talking about averages here not exceptions. I have yet to see any study that says Cubans as a whole have less Sub Saharan African admixture than Mexicans.

    That is why I say 2 percent Sub Saharan African admixture is low for a Cuban, when the average Mexican is 4 percent Sub Saharan African.

    Even your average North African Arab has more than 2 percent Sub Saharan African admixture.

    There were five excellent posting by a Cubano here (at isteve) who stated what I conveyed to you about a preponderance of pure Spanish bloodlines in Cuba. I am going to go with him. My European ancestors got here in 1890 so avoiding sub-Saharan admixture was easy. Not difficult for me to conceive that the same thing applied to most Spanish in Cuba.
    Obviously, white Americans with roots here going back three hundred years have lots more chance of having Amerindian and sub-Saharan blood in them and same applies even more for Mexico and South America where a lower standard for whiteness applies. I get your point.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "There were five excellent posting by a Cubano here (at isteve) who stated what I conveyed to you about a preponderance of pure Spanish bloodlines in Cuba. I am going to go with him. My European ancestors got here in 1890 so avoiding sub-Saharan admixture was easy. Not difficult for me to conceive that the same thing applied to most Spanish in Cuba.”

    I am going to go with genetic studies which have way more credibility than just the word if mouth your Cubano friend who does not work in the field of DNA.

    According to this study, the average Cuban is 20 percent Sub Saharan African.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/with-mariel-boatlift-ii-looming-how-white-are-the-remaining-cubans/

    So no, most people in Cuba are not pure White. Not even your average Argentinian is pure White and Argentina is often labeled the “Whitest” country in Latin America.

    “Obviously, white Americans with roots here going back three hundred years have lots more chance of having Amerindian and sub-Saharan blood”

    According to genetic studies, 95 percent of Non Hispanic White Americans have no Sub Saharan admixture. The remaining 5 percent only average 1 percent SSA, which is nowhere near the 20 percent SSA of the average Cuban.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • AP says:

    Well, if the only person in the known family tree with black hair (and it is Asian thick, straight black hair) and dark eyes was an Asian, those traits must have come from the Asian. Photos going back 3 generations show all blondes, everyone remembered (other than of Asian descent) had blue eyes also.

    Facial features have a subtle Asian influence that becomes clearer when comparing to a photo of the 1/4 Asian parent, and the 1/2 Asian grandparent.

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  • @AP
    Her ancestors without Asian descent (Poles and Russians) were all blue eyed blondes; she has very dark eyes and straight black hair and thin body type. She could pass for a white-skinned Japanese woman from the back. Generally European appearance though. The 99.8% European result makes little sense.

    “Her ancestors without Asian descent (Poles and Russians) were all blue eyed blondes; she has very dark eyes and straight black hair”

    I thought you were going to say she looks Asian because she has an epicanthic fold in her eyes or at least almond shaped eyes.

    If having brown eyes and black hair is what automatically makes a person look Asian, than there must be a lot of Oriental looking people in the Mediterranean and the Middle East. And even among some Northern Europeans like Colin Farrell and Catherine Zeta Jones.

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  • @Clyde
    You would be surprised at how many Cuban bloodlines are as pure Spanish as they claim and guarded for. Part of the reason is that many of the Cuban Spanish were not there for hundreds of years risking admixture, but only came from 1880 onward. Not to deny there are many mulattoes in Cuba and many blacks. The Castro brothers rule a darker Island than when they took over in 1959.

    “You would be surprised at how many Cuban bloodlines are as pure Spanish as they claim and guarded for. Part of the reason is that many of the Cuban Spanish were not there for hundreds of years risking admixture, but only came from 1880 onward. Not to deny there are many mulattoes in Cuba and many blacks. The Castro brothers rule a darker Island than when they took over in 1959.”

    Cuba is not anything special in that regard because you can find pure White people in almost all Latin American countries, but I am talking about averages here not exceptions. I have yet to see any study that says Cubans as a whole have less Sub Saharan African admixture than Mexicans.

    That is why I say 2 percent Sub Saharan African admixture is low for a Cuban, when the average Mexican is 4 percent Sub Saharan African.

    Even your average North African Arab has more than 2 percent Sub Saharan African admixture.

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    • Replies: @Clyde
    There were five excellent posting by a Cubano here (at isteve) who stated what I conveyed to you about a preponderance of pure Spanish bloodlines in Cuba. I am going to go with him. My European ancestors got here in 1890 so avoiding sub-Saharan admixture was easy. Not difficult for me to conceive that the same thing applied to most Spanish in Cuba.
    Obviously, white Americans with roots here going back three hundred years have lots more chance of having Amerindian and sub-Saharan blood in them and same applies even more for Mexico and South America where a lower standard for whiteness applies. I get your point.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Jefferson
    "How common might this problem be? My Polish/Russian wife is 1/8 Asian with obvious Asian features;"

    So your wife who is 1/8 Asian looks less Caucasian in phenotype than a lot of people who are 1/4 Asian.

    Her ancestors without Asian descent (Poles and Russians) were all blue eyed blondes; she has very dark eyes and straight black hair and thin body type. She could pass for a white-skinned Japanese woman from the back. Generally European appearance though. The 99.8% European result makes little sense.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Her ancestors without Asian descent (Poles and Russians) were all blue eyed blondes; she has very dark eyes and straight black hair"

    I thought you were going to say she looks Asian because she has an epicanthic fold in her eyes or at least almond shaped eyes.

    If having brown eyes and black hair is what automatically makes a person look Asian, than there must be a lot of Oriental looking people in the Mediterranean and the Middle East. And even among some Northern Europeans like Colin Farrell and Catherine Zeta Jones.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • my friend his *half* cuban. also, all four of his cuban great-grandparents were from spain supposedly. but this seems unlikely. he has told me that he always thought his maternal grandfather looked a bit black :-)

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  • @Jefferson
    "This came to my mind because a half Cuban friend of mine had ~2% African ancestry."

    2 percent Sub Saharan is quite low for a Cuban. Even your average Mexican has more Sub Saharan DNA than that and Mexico received nowhere near as many African slaves as Cuba.

    You would be surprised at how many Cuban bloodlines are as pure Spanish as they claim and guarded for. Part of the reason is that many of the Cuban Spanish were not there for hundreds of years risking admixture, but only came from 1880 onward. Not to deny there are many mulattoes in Cuba and many blacks. The Castro brothers rule a darker Island than when they took over in 1959.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "You would be surprised at how many Cuban bloodlines are as pure Spanish as they claim and guarded for. Part of the reason is that many of the Cuban Spanish were not there for hundreds of years risking admixture, but only came from 1880 onward. Not to deny there are many mulattoes in Cuba and many blacks. The Castro brothers rule a darker Island than when they took over in 1959."

    Cuba is not anything special in that regard because you can find pure White people in almost all Latin American countries, but I am talking about averages here not exceptions. I have yet to see any study that says Cubans as a whole have less Sub Saharan African admixture than Mexicans.

    That is why I say 2 percent Sub Saharan African admixture is low for a Cuban, when the average Mexican is 4 percent Sub Saharan African.

    Even your average North African Arab has more than 2 percent Sub Saharan African admixture.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Obrigado, Mr. Razib!

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  • It would be interesting to see the DNA ancestry results of the Icelandic celebrity Bjork. She looks way more Asian than Keanu Reeves and Rob Schneider.

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  • @Karl Zimmerman
    The problem with looking at Onge or any of the unadmixed Austro-Melanesian groups is it's looking more likely they are a compound population with elements which contains AMH ancestry which left Africa early. Wouldn't this mean then, that shared ancestry between East Asians and West Eurasians which these groups lacked could just be an artifact of not having substantive ancestry from this first wave?

    I think a better comparison would be to try and look at some of the eastern Siberian groups. Unlike west Siberians they do not seem to have recent admixture with West Eurasians. Many of the groups do not seem to have a lot of Ancient North Eurasian either. Yet they are clearly genetically distinct from East Asians. Discover the roots of this difference, and I think you'll discover what the ethnogenesis was in the East Asian neolithic.

    I’ve looked into that before, some ideas suggested by Wong et al. preprint’s Treemix runs on high coverage genomes are that East Asians might be a mix of East Siberian related and Onge-Australo-Melanesian ancestry, or East Siberian and something African – or early AMH.

    Trees with and without Oceanians:http://oi67.tinypic.com/a0l4s9.jpg

    Tree with ANE samples:
    The residuals, especially for the trees without ancient samples which are of variable quality, indicate a good fit FWIW. But something like this can only be confirmed with ancient DNA.

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  • @AP
    How common might this problem be? My Polish/Russian wife is 1/8 Asian with obvious Asian features; her 1/4 parent is more Asian still and 1/2 Asian grandparent looks like a full-blooded Asian. Yet, according to 23andme she is 99.6% European (and .2% Mongolian). Her Asian ancestry is Kalmyk (a tribe settled in southern Russia from Mongolia); might this obscure group simply have gotten masked under the general "Eastern European" category?

    “How common might this problem be? My Polish/Russian wife is 1/8 Asian with obvious Asian features;”

    So your wife who is 1/8 Asian looks less Caucasian in phenotype than a lot of people who are 1/4 Asian.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Her ancestors without Asian descent (Poles and Russians) were all blue eyed blondes; she has very dark eyes and straight black hair and thin body type. She could pass for a white-skinned Japanese woman from the back. Generally European appearance though. The 99.8% European result makes little sense.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Shaikorth
    That's a reasonable assumption, at least for the main East Asian group. Andamanese or the non-archaic part of the Papuans would be an interesting comparison.

    The recent study about archaic Sapiens admixture in eastern Neanderthals also has data suggesting that the Europeans (French) have similar distances to Dai/Han, and more intriguingly also to Native Americans whose link to Europeans through ANE is established.
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v530/n7591/full/nature16544.html

    http://i.imgur.com/cRKIXn8.png

    Although caveats apply, direction of the gene flow is hard to resolve.

    The problem with looking at Onge or any of the unadmixed Austro-Melanesian groups is it’s looking more likely they are a compound population with elements which contains AMH ancestry which left Africa early. Wouldn’t this mean then, that shared ancestry between East Asians and West Eurasians which these groups lacked could just be an artifact of not having substantive ancestry from this first wave?

    I think a better comparison would be to try and look at some of the eastern Siberian groups. Unlike west Siberians they do not seem to have recent admixture with West Eurasians. Many of the groups do not seem to have a lot of Ancient North Eurasian either. Yet they are clearly genetically distinct from East Asians. Discover the roots of this difference, and I think you’ll discover what the ethnogenesis was in the East Asian neolithic.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Shaikorth
    I've looked into that before, some ideas suggested by Wong et al. preprint's Treemix runs on high coverage genomes are that East Asians might be a mix of East Siberian related and Onge-Australo-Melanesian ancestry, or East Siberian and something African - or early AMH.

    Trees with and without Oceanians:
    http://oi68.tinypic.com/k2bs7s.jpg
    http://oi67.tinypic.com/a0l4s9.jpg

    Tree with ANE samples:
    http://oi67.tinypic.com/zujp90.jpg

    The residuals, especially for the trees without ancient samples which are of variable quality, indicate a good fit FWIW. But something like this can only be confirmed with ancient DNA.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Karl Zimmerman
    Wouldn't all modern East Asians (and possibly all East Eurasians) have to have West Eurasian ancestry for there to be "masked" West Eurasian ancestry in the Chinese which is higher than the roughly 2% that testing can now discover?

    That’s a reasonable assumption, at least for the main East Asian group. Andamanese or the non-archaic part of the Papuans would be an interesting comparison.

    The recent study about archaic Sapiens admixture in eastern Neanderthals also has data suggesting that the Europeans (French) have similar distances to Dai/Han, and more intriguingly also to Native Americans whose link to Europeans through ANE is established.

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v530/n7591/full/nature16544.html

    Although caveats apply, direction of the gene flow is hard to resolve.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Karl Zimmerman
    The problem with looking at Onge or any of the unadmixed Austro-Melanesian groups is it's looking more likely they are a compound population with elements which contains AMH ancestry which left Africa early. Wouldn't this mean then, that shared ancestry between East Asians and West Eurasians which these groups lacked could just be an artifact of not having substantive ancestry from this first wave?

    I think a better comparison would be to try and look at some of the eastern Siberian groups. Unlike west Siberians they do not seem to have recent admixture with West Eurasians. Many of the groups do not seem to have a lot of Ancient North Eurasian either. Yet they are clearly genetically distinct from East Asians. Discover the roots of this difference, and I think you'll discover what the ethnogenesis was in the East Asian neolithic.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Wouldn’t all modern East Asians (and possibly all East Eurasians) have to have West Eurasian ancestry for there to be “masked” West Eurasian ancestry in the Chinese which is higher than the roughly 2% that testing can now discover?

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    • Replies: @Shaikorth
    That's a reasonable assumption, at least for the main East Asian group. Andamanese or the non-archaic part of the Papuans would be an interesting comparison.

    The recent study about archaic Sapiens admixture in eastern Neanderthals also has data suggesting that the Europeans (French) have similar distances to Dai/Han, and more intriguingly also to Native Americans whose link to Europeans through ANE is established.
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v530/n7591/full/nature16544.html

    http://i.imgur.com/cRKIXn8.png

    Although caveats apply, direction of the gene flow is hard to resolve.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • The current season of Vikings just introduced a very cute Chinese woman as Ragnar’s love interest. She said her ship was raided by pirates and this is how she ended up a slave in Viking land. Her name is Yidu which sounds primitive Chinese to me. How her ship got anywhere near Viking lands of Scandinavia is beyond me.
    “Dianne Doan stars as Yidu, a completely different character within the world of the Vikings.”

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  • When I took a DNA test with 23AndMe, no Sub Saharan African admixture popped up. I am Sicilian and Calabrian.

    However I do have some Ashkenazi admixture, but that is still Caucasian under the 3 race theory.

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  • “This came to my mind because a half Cuban friend of mine had ~2% African ancestry.”

    2 percent Sub Saharan is quite low for a Cuban. Even your average Mexican has more Sub Saharan DNA than that and Mexico received nowhere near as many African slaves as Cuba.

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    • Replies: @Clyde
    You would be surprised at how many Cuban bloodlines are as pure Spanish as they claim and guarded for. Part of the reason is that many of the Cuban Spanish were not there for hundreds of years risking admixture, but only came from 1880 onward. Not to deny there are many mulattoes in Cuba and many blacks. The Castro brothers rule a darker Island than when they took over in 1959.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • AP says:

    How common might this problem be? My Polish/Russian wife is 1/8 Asian with obvious Asian features; her 1/4 parent is more Asian still and 1/2 Asian grandparent looks like a full-blooded Asian. Yet, according to 23andme she is 99.6% European (and .2% Mongolian). Her Asian ancestry is Kalmyk (a tribe settled in southern Russia from Mongolia); might this obscure group simply have gotten masked under the general “Eastern European” category?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "How common might this problem be? My Polish/Russian wife is 1/8 Asian with obvious Asian features;"

    So your wife who is 1/8 Asian looks less Caucasian in phenotype than a lot of people who are 1/4 Asian.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Iberian
    Speaking in África and admixture... some time ago, you promisse news about the genetic makeup of Afrikans/Boers; are we lucky?
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  • @Anonymous
    Razib. I am not exactly sure what you are propositioning, but didn't the erratum by Llorente et al. 2015 dispel the prospect of extensive ENF-like admixture throughout Africa? The report is now titled “Ancient Ethiopian genome reveals extensive Eurasian admixture in Eastern Africa," and in fact we even witnessed a decrease in purported Eurasian ancestry in East Africa as well.

    https://drive.google.com/a/gwmail.gwu.edu/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WZDBUdTN2ek5selU/view

    result was wrong, but most workers see evidence of some back migration at low levels across non-hunter-gatherers (e.g., reich lab). for example, detectable neanderthal does exist in yoruba. that’s one reason the result wasn’t laughed out of the house immediately by them. the r1b is chadian region is a pretty big tell, it’s old and very diverged from the ones in eurasia

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Razib. I am not exactly sure what you are propositioning, but didn’t the erratum by Llorente et al. 2015 dispel the prospect of extensive ENF-like admixture throughout Africa? The report is now titled “Ancient Ethiopian genome reveals extensive Eurasian admixture in Eastern Africa,” and in fact we even witnessed a decrease in purported Eurasian ancestry in East Africa as well.

    https://drive.google.com/a/gwmail.gwu.edu/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WZDBUdTN2ek5selU/view

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    result was wrong, but most workers see evidence of some back migration at low levels across non-hunter-gatherers (e.g., reich lab). for example, detectable neanderthal does exist in yoruba. that's one reason the result wasn't laughed out of the house immediately by them. the r1b is chadian region is a pretty big tell, it's old and very diverged from the ones in eurasia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b#/media/File:Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA).PNG
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Speaking in África and admixture… some time ago, you promisse news about the genetic makeup of Afrikans/Boers; are we lucky?

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/admixture-in-south-african-afrikaners/
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  • @Nicky
    >the Chinese themselves have some admixture from West Eurasians

    It would be interesting to test it. Ah, why we still don't have decent aDNA from East Asia, it would be much with them. When will we see them?

    a few years. some labs have been started by the paabo-willerslev diaspora.

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  • >the Chinese themselves have some admixture from West Eurasians

    It would be interesting to test it. Ah, why we still don’t have decent aDNA from East Asia, it would be much with them. When will we see them?

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    a few years. some labs have been started by the paabo-willerslev diaspora.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • The Austronesians were crazy and extraordinary. Starting about ~5,000 years ago they set off from the environs of Taiwan, and began to push outward. For ~30,000 years the people of Melanesia had defined the eastern edge of human habitation, but the Polynesian branch of the Austronesians blasted past that, going alway the way to Hawaii...
  • @Pertula,

    That’s interesting, the woman in question, does have blonde hair?!

    I can’t find the exact article I read, but through google I find her name is “Monica Matamua” and she is a member of the small tribe called “Ngāti Hotu”:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ng%C4%81ti_Hotu

    I can only find a reference to her possibly having B2 or B4, so I guess it’s possible that I mid-remembered?!

    Maybe my ApoE4 is finally kicking in??

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apolipoprotein_E

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  • Also re the NZ claim, this would require more than twenty generations of pre-literate genealogy to be preserved orally in an accurate manner, in addition to about fourteen generations of post-literate genealogy, to survive in memory to the present. The first literate king lists and biblical genealogies apparently derived from oral histories are iffy in accuracy, and for commoners even in literate pre-bureaucratic-state societies, genealogies are rarely kept in accurate forms for more than ten generations, even if naming practices may suggest somewhat deeper links.

    The notion that any oral tradition passed down to someone alive today in New Zealand about their origins more than 1000 years earlier would be accurate is very dubious.

    A more plausible possibility is an origin in a Maori tribe that was destroyed in Maori tribal warfare.

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  • “Isn’t the Peruvian Times link quite old, from Jan 8, 2009? And AFAICT the mtDNA claims in Shinoda’s publications aren’t as sensationalist?”

    I haven’t been able to get a hold of the full text of these publications. The Peruvian Times link was triggered by a more recent report that was more vague. The older story appeared to tell me more than what had changed with the recent story.

    @ Paul Conroy

    There was a wave of Maori v. Maori genocidal intertribal warfare when firearms were introduced to New Zealand very early after European contact, but the evidence from lack of megafauna extinction points strongly against previous human habitation. Forced to guess, D1 in New Zealand would most likely be from someone from Asia who married a sailor (Austronesian or Asian or European) who ended up settling in New Zealand a long time ago. If the individual does have deep Maori roots in NZ, they may be non-patriline, non-matriline roots only visible in autosomal DNA.

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  • @Paul Conroy
    Over on 23andme there was a Native New Zealander who claimed not to be a Maori, but descended from an older people who lived in New Zealand before the Maori arrived and largely killed them all off.

    She tested her mtDNA and was D1, not the more familiar Austronesian mtDNA lines. D1 is found in both Siberia and Native Americans...

    What do people make of that?!

    link? weird, but that story’s supremely hard to buy.

    you may know that some ethnographers (and “ancient Celtic NZ” types today) make a big deal about light hair in supposedly non-european-admixed Polynesians. no big mystery here … Melanesian blondism.

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  • Over on 23andme there was a Native New Zealander who claimed not to be a Maori, but descended from an older people who lived in New Zealand before the Maori arrived and largely killed them all off.

    She tested her mtDNA and was D1, not the more familiar Austronesian mtDNA lines. D1 is found in both Siberia and Native Americans…

    What do people make of that?!

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    link? weird, but that story's supremely hard to buy.

    you may know that some ethnographers (and "ancient Celtic NZ" types today) make a big deal about light hair in supposedly non-european-admixed Polynesians. no big mystery here ... Melanesian blondism.
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  • Menzies “1421″ about “the Chinese discovery of America” is horrible in its argument, but as I remember he has scavenged up a lot of information about contacts across the Pacific.

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  • Isn’t the Peruvian Times link quite old, from Jan 8, 2009?
    And AFAICT the mtDNA claims in Shinoda’s publications aren’t as sensationalist?

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  • I’ve recapped the evidence on Pre-Columbian contacts with the Americas in a recent blog post and another post here. A couple of key points:

    * Kumara, a domesticated food crop used by Austronesians with South American (possibly Peruvian origins) has been dated as present on the Cook Islands (in Oceania somewhat near New Zealand) ca. 1000 CE.

    * From around 900 CE to 1100 CE, the people who lived in what today is the Lambayeque region, about 800 kilometers (500 miles) north of Lima, Peru had genetic links to the contemporaneous populations of Ecuador, Colombia, Siberia, Taiwan and to the Ainu people of northern Japan. These people were practitioners of the Middle Sican culture. It is not clear to what extent this contact was Austronesian in origin. Timing wise, this is a better fit to the source of the kumara than the Easter Island admixture event or the Brazilian remains. But, while the Taiwanese genetics are a good match for the Austronesians, the Siberian and Ainu similarities are not.

    Some of the more important references for my analysis include:
    [1] Maanasa Raghavan, et al., “The genetic prehistory of the New World Arctic”, Science 29 August 2014: Vol. 345 no. 6200 DOI: 10.1126/science.1255832.
    [2] David Reich, et al., “Reconstructing Native American population history”, Nature 488, 370-374 (16 August 2012) doi: 10.1038/nature11258
    [3] Matthew C. Dulik, “Y-chromosome analysis reveals genetic divergence and new founding native lineages in Athapaskan- and Eskimoan- speaking populations”, PNAS (May 29, 2012) doi: 10.1073/pnas/1118760109
    [4] Erika Tamm, et al., “Beringian Standstill and Spread of Native American Founders”, PLOS One DO: 10.1381/journal.pone.0000829 (September 5, 2007).
    [5] Alessandro Achilli, “Reconciling migration models to the Americas with the variation of North American native mitogenomes”, 110 PNAS 35 (August 27, 2013) doi: 10.1073/pnas.1306290110
    [6] Zegura, et al., “High-Resolution SNPs and Microsatellite Haplotypes Point to a Single, Recent Entry of Native American Y Chromsomes into the Americas.”, Mol. Biol. Evol. (2004) 21(1):164-175 doi: 0.1093/molbev/msh009
    [7] Judith R. Kidd, et al., “SNPs and Haplotypes in Native American Populations”, Am J. Phys Anthropol. 146(4) 495-502 (Dec. 2011) doi: 10.1002/aipa/21560

    There is also an emerging possibility that the pre-Columbian high civilizations of the New World share far more of a common heritage than previously recognized. The chronology is not inconsistent with a shared origin for all of these cultures in the vicinity of Monroe, Louisiana ca. 3700 BCE to 2700 BCE, around the same time that Paloeskimos arrived in Arctic North America after a complete hiatus of contact between the Old World and the New World from the flooding of the Beringian land bridge to ca. 3500 BCE. Monroe, Louisiana is also where anyone exploring any major river system in North America would eventually end up. So, the possibility of almost all New World civilization having its cultural antecedents in a stray group of travelers from that era that left little or no genetic traces can’t be ruled out.

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  • #15 Of course some explorers might have failed in their quest to find habitable lands, yet perhaps succeeded in spreading plants or animals. But whatever geographic routes and technical means led to the dispersal of dogs, and sweet potato, across the South Seas, it remains irrelevant to the observation of Moreno-Mayar et al cited above by Razib, because they happened many centuries or thousands years before the controversial Amerindian admixture on Rapa Nui.

    The dogs are attested in Australia for nearly 4 millennia. Sweet potato is documented in Eastern Central Polynesia since about 1000 AD, and its spread across the far reaches of of Eastern Polynesian expansion, from Hawaii to New Zealand (but not in the prehistoric Western Polynesia), indicates that the radiation of sweet potato cultivation must have started there soon after settling of the Marquesas in the 300s AD. This time frame overlaps with the epoch of the greatest Polynesian ocean exploration, and perhaps there is some credence to the idea that the Polynesians might have reached the Americas back then. But the Native American admixture in Rapa Nui is tentatively dated to a time period a millennium later, when long-distance Polynesian exploration has long ceased.

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  • #14 – There’s a difference between settlement and exploration though. Polynesians may not have settled in Australia, but their dogs share a common origin in SE Asia with Australian dingoes.

    http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/09/06/rspb.2011.1395.full

    The genomes of sweet potatoes and coconuts both offer evidence of contact between Polynesians and South America.

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  • #12, Polynesians have traveled very far to reach Easter Island, but their expansion was already losing steam by then; they haven’t expanded beyond ca. 1200 AD, and their long-distance canoe voyages e.g. to Hawaii stopped about at the same time or soon after. After thorough deforestation of Rapa Nui in the 1200s, the residents were even less likely to explore far. In any case the latter phase of the Austronesian expansion was limited to un-populated islands? Australia has been bypassed by the expansion completely. I would hypothesize that scarcity of remaining un-populated dry-lands (getting smaller in size / harder to reach) eventually discouraged Polynesians from further long-distance exploration. If you keep sending young explorers far out in search of new habitable lands, but they don’t bring good news anymore, then eventually you just may stop trying, and the skills die out.

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  • @Razib Khan
    in the latter model, the NA admixture would have been “old” but passed through the mostly-European founders rather then directly to the Polynesians.

    actually, it depends. the model of old admixture you see in the caribbean may not be quite generalizable all across latin america, where indios were reckoned to be the majority down to the 18th century across huge swaths. so you'd have more continuous admixture, so long + medium + short blocks.

    Great stuff Razib. I’m a huge fan of your work and everything Polynesian + genomics.

    1.) Are you aware of what they are using as a “Polynesian ancestral reference” for this project? AIMS? an array based approach I am assuming? and if so how many locations in the human genome are they using to make this claim with an (n=2).

    2.) To your knowledge has there been any interest (that you know of) in understanding human genetic variation in Polynesian populations using NGS (short read etc.)? and If so which PI’s are pursuing these questions (potentially in the San Diego area)?

    Thanks,

    Keolu

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  • Should this be all that surprising? Given how far Polynesians would have had to have traveled to reach Rapa Nui in the first place, why would they stop there?

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  • Peripherally related: there’s considerable speculation of Shang-era contact betweem the peoples in China and those in the N Pacific coast down to Mexico (Olmec). This is hardly proven though, in my opinion, not ridiculous either. This doeesn’t mean that the Native American peoples were “Chinese” or descended from Chinese. The Shang themselves were barely Chinese, and the relevant people might not even have been Shang.

    Menzies book about later contact is not taken seriously to my knowledge.

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  • I would add that most adventures probably end badly, either with death or with retreat. The notable ones are especially those entering unpopulated or underpopulated territory (the arctic, Polynesia). A second example would be the Turko-Mongol migration by conquest / mercenary service.

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  • “But they make us wonder how incredible human migrations have been over the past ~50,000 years! Ancient people were far more daring than we had imagined, and I think we need to reconsider what “crazy” exactly is in many ways.”

    I’ve thought about this quite a bit. First, the main barrier to migration and travel has always been blockage by powerful peoples. The reason why the Greeks, Romans, and early medieval Europeans never reached China is that the intervening peoples (Arabs, Persians, and for Alexander, Sogdians or the like) didn’t want them to. It’s not an impossibly difficult trip otherwise, for someone who has the motivation to go (a second constraint: why go?).

    But second, we assume that ancient peoples were prudent and utilitarian and calculated the odds. There’s little reason to believe that. People have all kinds of motives for doing all kinds of things, including both religion and mere whim (the wild hair). There’s ample evidence of wild hairs in history and anthropology.

    Notably, high energy, high status young men without an institutional place in their own society (except as “youth”) cause a lot of trouble and don’t have much fun or opportunity. In society after society they have the custom of going adventuring, either voluntarily or as exiles.

    The Inuit migration from Asia to Greenland took about 300 years. Of course, flat maps exaggerate the distance, but it’s still ~3000 miles of extremely inhospitable terrain.

    A second major point is that every time new information (much less new classes of information like DNA) is found, all the stories have to be rewritten according to the new information. However, the new information is almost but not quite as incomplete as the previous information, and the new writeup will have to be rewritten as soon as there’s a new big find.

    There might be a way to theorize results more probabilistically, or just in terms what is possible and likely. This would require complex, multiple theories, however, which unless very well written up might they confuse people unbearably (not just journalists).

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  • Of course, in the typical Peruvians, it’s a continuous admixture, with the potential for shorter blocks further diminished by the fact that they may be as high as 75% Amerinidian in origin. But the privileged classes of old Peru avoided interbreeding with the indigenous and lower-classes for much of the more recent history?

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  • in the latter model, the NA admixture would have been “old” but passed through the mostly-European founders rather then directly to the Polynesians.

    actually, it depends. the model of old admixture you see in the caribbean may not be quite generalizable all across latin america, where indios were reckoned to be the majority down to the 18th century across huge swaths. so you’d have more continuous admixture, so long + medium + short blocks.

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    • Replies: @Keolu
    Great stuff Razib. I'm a huge fan of your work and everything Polynesian + genomics.

    1.) Are you aware of what they are using as a "Polynesian ancestral reference" for this project? AIMS? an array based approach I am assuming? and if so how many locations in the human genome are they using to make this claim with an (n=2).

    2.) To your knowledge has there been any interest (that you know of) in understanding human genetic variation in Polynesian populations using NGS (short read etc.)? and If so which PI's are pursuing these questions (potentially in the San Diego area)?

    Thanks,

    Keolu

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  • #5, right, of course they also rule out a scenario where admixture from “pure” Europeans and Native Americans would have occurred roughly at the same time. But that’s not how Mestizo admixture would look – in the latter model, the NA admixture would have been “old” but passed through the mostly-European founders rather then directly to the Polynesians. Yes, looking for NA+European vs. NA+Polynesian segments has a potential to resolve it. Another cool possibility is to try to find out the number of the non-Polynesian founders, and perhaps to deduce portions of their genotypes (if there were few contributing European / NA founders, as it is likely to be case, then even with a couple dozen genotypes at hand one would have sampled these founders many times over)

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  • #2, no, “Note that model M2 also includes the case in which both admixture events occur at the same time” in any case, to eliminate the mestizo probability what you need to do is look at correlations of NA+european segments, since NA admixture in some mestizo populations occurred relatively early.

    i’ve emailed the corresponding authors and will update accordingly.

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  • Some of the Olmec stone statues look kind of polynesian.

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  • @RossM
    Please review your dates. The French study uses dates BC and AD but you have taken them to be BP. For example, in the first line you state the exodus from Taiwan was around 3,ooo years ago. It was around 5,000 years ago.

    ~8,000 (out of Taiwan) is my understanding :)

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  • Razib, their M2 hypothesis isn’t “Mestizos from Chile bring European and Amerindian ancestry into the genomes of Easter Islanders. ” Their M2 posits two separate admixture events, an earlier one from Europeans, followed by a later one from unadmixed Native Americans.

    The pre-admixed Mestizo involvement is my hypothesis in the comments of Kim’s blog, the one which the authors didn’t address. But earlier studies of Eastern Polynesians (both uniparental on Rapa and autosomal / genealogical on Rapa Nui) concluded that most likely source of Native American admixture in the Eastern Polynesia were the activities of Peruvian slave raiders in the 1860s. The Peruvians are, of course, Mestizos, but this hasn’t been factored in in the present study. The NA haploblock lengths in Peru would likely correspond to the admixture in the 1500s, i.e. slightly (although not significantly) longer than what the authors observed (but they probably underestimated the sizes of NA haplo tracts due to their conservative approach used to assign NA / European block boundaries in a situation where unadmixed reference NA data are hard to come by). An extreme bottleneck of the 1870s (when the effective population size dropped to as low as 36 people) would, of course, make dating of the prior genetic events less reliable in the first place.

    Lastly, a minor point. In Chilean times (post-1888) the Rapa Nui native survivors were confined to a reservation and practiced endogamy approx. until 1965 when they were finally granted citizen rights. Thus the Chileans are a less likely source of admixture.

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  • Please review your dates. The French study uses dates BC and AD but you have taken them to be BP. For example, in the first line you state the exodus from Taiwan was around 3,ooo years ago. It was around 5,000 years ago.

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    • Replies: @Keolu
    ~8,000 (out of Taiwan) is my understanding :)
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  • In the comments below a question was asked about the non-European admixture in white Canadians, New Zealanders, and Australians. It was prompted by the fact that low levels of non-European admixture do seem to be found in most whites in the Family Tree DNA database where both parents were born in South Africa (granted, a...
  • Karl Z: Of course, there was racial mixing among the early Quebecois according to history and genealogy, but there is essentially no genetic trace of this today, perhaps because their mixed-race offspring were less fit for immunological (or other) reasons.

    Alternate hypothesis: many (most?) mixed French/Indian children ended up outside Quebecois society – the Métis are considered their own ethnic group now.

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  • CupofSoup

    I took him to mean that is was not there as opposed to it being there and not detected.
    I just thought that I received genetic material in approximately appropriate numbers from my ancestors.
    If I did my math correctly I should have about 1/712 genetic material from that ancestor from 250 years ago.
    So, I echo your comment. Could I have lost 1/712 or is just not detectable?

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  • With respect to Canada at least, I’d just second #5 and point out that particularly outside Quebec and small parts of Ontario, most of the population immigrated here pretty recently. So there hasn’t been the same time for admixture. Most came here after the numbered treaties were already signed and the First Nations largely segregated into reserves.

    That’s changing fast though. The fastest growing demographic in Canada is people of mixed ethnicity. The second fastest is aboriginal people. My generation may not be particularly admixed, but that will not be true of future generations.

    Razib – re your comment #8, my understanding was that with such a short timeline it was actually pretty unlikely to have such ancestry completely lost to genetic drift. Isn’t the issue more that having 1 ancestor out of 1,000 belong to a specific ethnicity is still really hard to detect? IE the issue is more that the signal is really really small, not that these people actually have lost all of their aboriginal ancestry. Or am I mistaken?

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  • @Sean
    During the latter stages of the Boer war, the natives attacked many Boer farms out on the veldt, which had only women and children on them. Also, the British armed tens of thousands of native scouts, and there was some taking advantage, according to a British documentery of a few years ago.

    Quite a few white American celebrities claim Native American ancestry. To my eyes, many who don't claim it, have what looks like obvious traces. Sarah Palin for example .

    Quite a few white American celebrities claim Native American ancestry. To my eyes, many who don’t claim it, have what looks like obvious traces. Sarah Palin for example .

    Most White celebrities who boast of Amerind ancestry are just repeating family legends. In most cases, these legends are completely lacking in any kind of genealogical support. Cf, for example, Elizabeth Warren’s bogus claims to Amerind ancestry. Johnny Depp is another good example of a celebrity who loves to talk about Amerind ancestry but who has never produced any evidence to back it up:

    In a 2002 interview, Depp stated that he believed he has Native American ancestry;[111] in 2011, he specified, “I guess I have some Native American [in me] somewhere down the line. My great-grandmother was quite a bit of Native American, she grew up Cherokee or maybe Creek Indian. Makes sense in terms of coming from Kentucky, which is rife with Cherokee and Creek.”[112] He has also stated that he “apparently” has Native American ancestry, and that “There are so many different things you’re told [growing up] in Kentucky” [about his heritage].[113] His Native ancestry came under question when Indian Country Today Media Network stated that Depp has never inquired about his heritage nor does the Cherokee Nation recognize him as a member.[114]

    (WIKIPEDIA)

    RE: Sarah Palin,

    I’m not sure what you are talking about. Her appearance looks quite Caucasoid/West Eurasian to me.

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  • #9, it’s not that. the % are too small, and the segments are not long. this is older. probably the late 17th and 18th centuries when people of mixed race were part of the dutch speaking settler population.

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  • “Most Americans with colonial stock for example can probably trace a line of genealogical descent back to a Native American”
    I was surprised by that remark, but I suppose since the number of ancestors can multiply with each generation it could be plausible.

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  • During the latter stages of the Boer war, the natives attacked many Boer farms out on the veldt, which had only women and children on them. Also, the British armed tens of thousands of native scouts, and there was some taking advantage, according to a British documentery of a few years ago.

    Quite a few white American celebrities claim Native American ancestry. To my eyes, many who don’t claim it, have what looks like obvious traces. Sarah Palin for example .

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Quite a few white American celebrities claim Native American ancestry. To my eyes, many who don’t claim it, have what looks like obvious traces. Sarah Palin for example .
     
    Most White celebrities who boast of Amerind ancestry are just repeating family legends. In most cases, these legends are completely lacking in any kind of genealogical support. Cf, for example, Elizabeth Warren's bogus claims to Amerind ancestry. Johnny Depp is another good example of a celebrity who loves to talk about Amerind ancestry but who has never produced any evidence to back it up:

    In a 2002 interview, Depp stated that he believed he has Native American ancestry;[111] in 2011, he specified, "I guess I have some Native American [in me] somewhere down the line. My great-grandmother was quite a bit of Native American, she grew up Cherokee or maybe Creek Indian. Makes sense in terms of coming from Kentucky, which is rife with Cherokee and Creek."[112] He has also stated that he "apparently" has Native American ancestry, and that "There are so many different things you're told [growing up] in Kentucky" [about his heritage].[113] His Native ancestry came under question when Indian Country Today Media Network stated that Depp has never inquired about his heritage nor does the Cherokee Nation recognize him as a member.[114]
     
    (WIKIPEDIA)

    RE: Sarah Palin,

    I'm not sure what you are talking about. Her appearance looks quite Caucasoid/West Eurasian to me.
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  • #7, if you have a single like of genealogical relationship to someone 250 years back, you are unlikely to have any segments of DNA from them due to random noise. many old stock americans can trace descent from famous individuals who are known to have a native american ancestor, but show no native american heritage. that’s because they didn’t inherit any DNA from that native american across the generations.

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  • Can you further explain the addendum? You say that only a small minority show admixture, then you say that it is likely there in most but it is not detected. Thanks.

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  • Curious Reader:

    Hawaii is a bit of the same way, yet very different. Most of the older generation of Portuguese and Chinese immigrants have mixed with Hawaiians to the point they identify as Hawaiian (myself included), despite the fact that the majority of their descent is not Hawaiian. Considering the social benefits of naming and claiming descent, I wonder if in many of these places people who would 50 years ago identify themselves as white would now identify themselves as natives in censuses.

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  • Comparing Afrikaners to white Australians or white Canadians is comparing apples to oranges. White Australians and white Canadians are melting pots, while Afrikaners are an ethnicity, a very inbred and closed-off one at that, with a language and attitude isolating them from mixing extensively with more recent European arrivals (British, Portuguese, Greek), thus all of them having the majority of their roots in the same small number of original settlers. It only makes some amount of sense if you’re comparing them to white Aussies and Kiwis with colonial roots. Or if you’d compare white Aussies and Kiwis to English-speaking white Saffas.

    As for NZ, from what I’ve seen, it’s a bit different from Oz and Canada. The overwhelming majority of NZ whites have no Maori ancestry, but a sizable minority do. Of course, it’s a very different situation to the Afrikaners’ stable amount of admixture that entered the gene pool of a small group of settlers at an early point of colonization and is spread out evenly throughout the population and the knowledge of which is somewhat lost in the mists of time. Due to this different (and continuing) type of mixing in NZ and to the more recent date of colonization, unlike Afrikaners, most white Kiwis with Maori ancestry know exactly who their Maori ancestor was. I remember a study a few years ago showing the percentage of known Maori descendants in NZ as around 25% of the population – 10% more than the 15% of the population who claim any kind of Maori identity. Quite high considering more than 25% of NZ are recent immigrants. Off the top of my head, that would mean some 14% of NZ whites have some Maori ancestry. They’d be much more likely to be found in the North Island, I believe. The South Island, with its much colder climate, had only a small Maori population at contact, which had actually regressed from farming to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle.

    Speaking of NZ, it looks set to be the first Anglo settler colony other than the US to become minority-majority.

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  • syon, right on both counts. i’d like bigger sample sizes, but with south africans that wasn’t needed.

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  • Razib:Most Americans with colonial stock for example can probably trace a line of genealogical descent back to a Native American.

    I would tend to think that there would be a certain amount of geographical variation, though. New England, for example, probably has the lowest amount of intermarrying. Fischer, in ALBION’S SEED, notes how the NE colonies had good male to female ratios (I think that Massachusetts Bay was nearly 50%), which would tend to diminish the need for English boys to court Amerind girls.

    The South, in contrast, had a much more unfavorable sex ratio during the formative period (17th-early 18th centuries), with men outnumbering women to a much greater degree than was found in the North. Hence, I would tend to think that sheer necessity would prompt higher rates of Anglo-Amerind intermarriage.

    One other factor to bear in mind is that that Amerind nations persisted in the South for a longer period of time (cf the Creek, etc). That would have extended the window of opportunity for inter-racial courtship.

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  • @Karl Zimmerman
    You seem to have missed Australians - what do they show?

    I would hazard a guess, the proportion of nonwhite ancestry would be slightly higher than for Americans or Canadians, if only because among the initial convict population had relatively few women. Thus many men's only option of having children was with an aboriginal spouse. And given what we know from Latin America, the genetic legacy of the first group of settlers is ultimately hard to erase.

    Of course, there was racial mixing among the early Quebecois according to history and genealogy, but there is essentially no genetic trace of this today, perhaps because their mixed-race offspring were less fit for immunological (or other) reasons. So a similar dynamic could have "whitened" the Australian population.

    Or it may just be that most of the "half-castes" kept folding back into the aboriginal population. Indeed, studies I have seen suggest the average modern aborigine is around 35% European in ancestry, with admixture proportions all over the map.

    Karl Zimmerman:”You seem to have missed Australians – what do they show?”

    I don’t think that he did elide the Australians. Here is the relevant section:

    ” I actually just looked at the data for Australia, Canada and New Zealand. The sample size for New Zealand was small. But, in these cases those individuals of preponderant European ancestry have no non-European ancestry, by and large. A few Canadians do have some fractions of Native American ancestry. This seems in line with the data on American whites from 23andMe.”

    The way that I read this, Razib is saying that the rates of admixture in the White Anglo settler nations (USA, Canada, Australia, NZ) are about the same, with each nation showing very little evidence of indigenous admixture, especially when compared to the Afrikaners.

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  • You seem to have missed Australians – what do they show?

    I would hazard a guess, the proportion of nonwhite ancestry would be slightly higher than for Americans or Canadians, if only because among the initial convict population had relatively few women. Thus many men’s only option of having children was with an aboriginal spouse. And given what we know from Latin America, the genetic legacy of the first group of settlers is ultimately hard to erase.

    Of course, there was racial mixing among the early Quebecois according to history and genealogy, but there is essentially no genetic trace of this today, perhaps because their mixed-race offspring were less fit for immunological (or other) reasons. So a similar dynamic could have “whitened” the Australian population.

    Or it may just be that most of the “half-castes” kept folding back into the aboriginal population. Indeed, studies I have seen suggest the average modern aborigine is around 35% European in ancestry, with admixture proportions all over the map.

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    • Replies: @syonredux
    Karl Zimmerman:"You seem to have missed Australians – what do they show?"

    I don't think that he did elide the Australians. Here is the relevant section:

    " I actually just looked at the data for Australia, Canada and New Zealand. The sample size for New Zealand was small. But, in these cases those individuals of preponderant European ancestry have no non-European ancestry, by and large. A few Canadians do have some fractions of Native American ancestry. This seems in line with the data on American whites from 23andMe."

    The way that I read this, Razib is saying that the rates of admixture in the White Anglo settler nations (USA, Canada, Australia, NZ) are about the same, with each nation showing very little evidence of indigenous admixture, especially when compared to the Afrikaners.
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  • Citation: Decker JE, McKay SD, Rolf MM, Kim J, Molina Alcalá A, et al. (2014) Worldwide Patterns of Ancestry, Divergence, and Admixture in Domesticated Cattle. PLoS Genet 10(3): e1004254. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1004254   I am a man of a particular age, old enough to remember when the idea of thousands of what were then quaintly termed 'molecular...
  • […] own batteries, absorbing energy and releasing it on demand. Triclosan aids nasal invasions by staph Steak, It’s What’s for Publication Fast Principal Component Analysis of Large-Scale Genome-Wide […]

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  • Maju says: • Website

    Well, the main interest of this paper is, I understand, that it identifies a distinctive (North) African aurochs admixture (~26%) in the African taurine branch – some of which remain unadmixed with indicine cattle, a phenomenon rather restricted to East Africa and which the authors identify as “recent” (historical era).

    I do think that finding that deep divergence between the Eurasian and African taurine branches is quite interesting in itself, as are other details mostly pertaining to African cattle.

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  • Still waiting for proof that Shiba Inu are descended partially from dogs independently domesticated from honshu wolves (dwarf Japanese subspecies of gray wolf).

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  • but I expect cats and dogs will be what really grabs our attention

    hope so!

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  • I suppose it makes sense to really throw some analysis behind a ‘cash crop’ like cattle, but I expect cats and dogs will be what really grabs our attention, what with our sentimental attachment to them and all.

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  • So Texas Longhorn are part Brahman. That answers one question I’d always had. Holstein apparently got their milk production the old fashioned way– inbreeding and simple selection. And Angus beef may have gotten some of its beefyness (and color, I suspect) from further afield on the family phylogeny. Fascinating stuff.

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  • There have been many popular press treatments of Hellenthal et al.'s A Genetic Atlas of Human Admixture History already. If you have not seen their interactive map, which imparts many of their results, I highly recommend it. To understand the scientific results it does help to read some of this group's earlier papers, such as...
  • In terms of the “Jatts” and their Northern European affinity, I’m reminded again of the theory that:
    Jatts = Goths

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  • What do you make of the 23.1% Scottish-like ancestry in the Kalash – per Full Analysis: First Event

    Or the 11.9% Scottish-like ancestry – per Central Asian Analysis: First Event

    Or the 3.7% Scottish-like ancestry – per Central Asian Analysis: Second Event

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  • More often than not the discipline of history seems to swing between the true and trivial (or perhaps more precisely, picayune), and grand narratives which emphasize a nearly fictionalized story. In some ways this is not entirely a problem. When teaching young children the history of the United States a punctilious adherence to fact is...
  • […] • Read Razib Khan's detailed report on these findings at The Unz Review […]

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  • * This was an incredibly intense demographic shift. A quote from the paper illustrates just how intense the demographic shift was at some points in time:

    “The best-fit model for Colombians and Hondurans involves admixture between Native Americans and Europeans starting 14 generations ago, followed by a second pulse of European ancestry starting 12 and 5 generations ago, respectively. Of note is that between the first and second pulse of migration in Colombians, the proportion of European ancestry increased from 12.5% to 75% in two generations, implying that the European segments in today’s Colombians date back to European gene flow happening in a short period of time; thus, tracing their ancestry to a smaller number of European founders compared to other Latino populations.”

    To get to 75% European ancestry in two generations from 0% would imply that 100% of fathers were European (and 0% of mothers were). Since the starting point was 12.5%, the percentage of fathers who were European was less than 100% – my back of napkin estimate would be that 66% of fathers would have to be European to see that shift in two generations (assuming that 0% of mothers were any % European, which due to admixture would be an underestimate, so the reality might be closer to 50%-60% in those two generations despite the number of Europeans being far less than the number of indigeneous men).

    * What precisely did “androcide” mean in this context?

    It would be nice to know what “androcide” means in a quantitative sense. I searched the paper, in vain (perhaps it was in the supplemental materials), for some simple metrics that compare the relative degree of indigeneous male and indigenous female contributions to the modern gene pools (e.g. the percentage of Y-DNA haplogroups and mtDNA haplogroups in the modern population that are indigenous in origin). For example, a 2008 paper by Hammer et al. summarized this with an estimated breeding sex ratio (i.e., the effective size of females to males) that ranged to as high as 12.5 for the French Basque, but I can’t work out a similar metric for this data myself although surely this study had sufficient raw data to calculate these metrics.

    It is also hard, for people like myself who didn’t learn this history, to a sense of what the lives of indigenous men deprived of an opportunity to have children were like in that transition period. Were they literally killed, isolated into slave labor gangs, exiled to be hunters or bandits in the wilderness, or what? Likewise, it would be interesting to have some snippet of what the indigeneous women felt about the situation. Was having a half-European child something prestigious that they were competing with each other to have or did it feel like humiliating servitude?

    * How does the Caribbean experience compare to other examples?

    One of the reasons to care about how the Caribbean process played out is to understand what might have happened in prehistory where we don’t have historical documents to frame the genetic data and confirm the interpretation given to an analysis of it.

    It would also be interesting to compare Caribbean situation compares to other historical and prehistoric cases of admixture. Presumably, this is a situation where the European admixture was particularly dominant given the immense disparities of power and first contact disease exposure issues in the immediate post-1492 era. One would imagine that two groups less starkly outmatched would experience a muted version of the same process.

    It seems as it the pattern in North America involved more replacement and less admixture.

    The encounters of first wave Neolithic farmers and European foragers before the Chalcolithic era seem to have involved little early admixture, quite unlike the Caribbean situation. Could this have been because early farmers weren’t dominant enough to overwhelming early foragers when their own farming techniques were quite primitive and they lacked metal weapons to give them a military advantage?

    The Yaoyi-Jomon admixture in Japan seemed to involve much of the indigenous Jomon component (both men and women) remaining in the gene pool, despite near total destruction of the Jomon language and culture. The ethnogenesis of Madagascar, likewise seems to have involved fairly equal contributions of African and Indonesian genetic components, less stark differences in male and female contributions, and an overwhelmingly complete elimination of African linguistic and cultural contributions.

    Are there populations whose prehistoric admixtures look demographically similar to the Caribbean?

    Obviously, nobody expects a single blog post to answer these questions. But, these are the questions that start running through my head as I read your post.

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  • The Pith:In India 5,000 years ago there were the hunter-gathers. Then came the Dravidian farmers. Finally came the Indo-Aryan cattle herders. There is a new paper out of the Reich lab, Genetic Evidence for Recent Population Mixture in India, which follows up on their seminal 2009 work, Reconstructing Indian Population History. I don't have time...
  • @Razib Khan
    no. they diverged from ANI 20-30,000 years ago. they are the unmixed population closest to ASI. additionally, in this paper they report that they might be differentially related to different ASI groups because of gene flow from ASI => andaman.

    Don’t forget (if they haven’t mentioned it yet) technologies such as the bow and especially the outrigger canoe verify the existence of outside contacts that may have left genes there.

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  • @Anonymous
    IVC art could tell us something about who they were:


    http://www.manatee.k12.fl.us/sites/elementary/ballard/art%20museum/India/Ancient/Harapadancer.jpg

    http://www.exoticindiaart.com/artimages/priest.jpg

    There was a paper mentioning this figure in Advances in Anthropology. The figure likely represents an East African (a slave?) immigrant into their civilisation.

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  • ASI is misnamed as it relates to the southeast Asian Neolithic and the Austroasiatic languages. The most rational way to imagine ANI and ASI is two waves of food producers pouring into the subcontinent in its northern half from opposite sides.

    Kennedy describes ‘Cro-Magnons’ as present in Mesolithic India with the Balangoda race to their south. This places a distinction between Europeoid and Veddoid Indians even in the Mesolithic and though the Ganga Valley caucasians must’ve left some genetic legacy, they were swamped by West Asian and Southeast Asian food producers.

    Lastly FWIW crania from the BMAC outside of South Asia were described as possessing Veddoid traits.

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  • In India 5000 years ago there were already a lot of farmers, from Koldihwa to Jhusi and Lahuradewa, at least in the 7th millennium BC…

    http://archaeology.up.nic.in/doc/tefc_jnp.pdf

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Your suggestion of 3000BC for initial admixture does not comport with Reich’s paper. Also, it is not clear how agriculturalists settling in the Indus Valley could trigger a major admixture event between ANIs and ASI throughout India. Also, it begs the question, if there are signals of middle-eastern admixture around 3000BC why are they not visible? Also, there is evidence of farming in Mehrgarh as far back as 7000BC, so the purported movement from the middle-east must have happened around 7000BC or earlier and not around 3000BC as suggested.
    I have to agree with the authors of the paper that the first admixture probably occurred as a result of the collapse of the major IV complex and the second was triggered by the arrival of a small band of IA speakers whose genetic signature is barely visible today but culturally and linguistically the impact has been huge.

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  • Check out break down of India by regions on National Genographic Project which claims South Asians are mixture of Southwest Asians, Southeast Asians, Northeast Asians, Mediterranean & Northern European.

    Southwest Asians = Represents the first migration from Africa through Southwest Asia to the Indian subcontinent.

    Southeast Asian = Reflects mixing between populations from this region and those living in India, perhaps with the spread of rice agriculture or the Austroasiatic languages such as Munda, and is found at highest frequency in eastern India.

    Mediterranean = Arrived with the spread of agriculture into India from the Fertile Crescent within the past 10,000 years.

    Northern European = Represents more recent interaction with people of ultimately European origin, perhaps via the ancient Indo-Iranian-speaking steppe nomads of Central Asia, who are thought to have migrated into India around 3,500 years ago.

    https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/

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  • @Anonymous
    IVC art could tell us something about who they were:


    http://www.manatee.k12.fl.us/sites/elementary/ballard/art%20museum/India/Ancient/Harapadancer.jpg

    http://www.exoticindiaart.com/artimages/priest.jpg

    The lady reminds me of Banjara from Rajasthan/Gujarat:

    Banjara women showing their Bangles

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  • If Baloch component is a hybrid ASI/ANI component, then that would mean that the Baloch component seen in Europeans points to migration out of India. I always wondered why this couldn’t have happened. The migration event would have occured before further admixture with ASI folks.

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  • @Karl Zimmerman
    The date for the admixture seems a bit too recent to assume tight linkage with the Indus Valley Civilization. I mean, the upper range for the ASI/ANI admixture in this model is 2,000 BC. By this time the "mature" period of the IVC was virtually over. It had essentially collapsed entirely by 1300 BC, which isn't even in the mid-range of admixture dates. Instead, based upon the dates alone, you'd presume the mixture between the two groups happened because of the fall of the IVC, not the rise.

    Say some Near Eastern farmers migrated into the Indus Valley region from Persia near the dawn of agriculture. They found native populations living there, but they rather quickly displaced them with minimal admixture, leaving largely "pure" hunter gatherers to their east.

    Centuries later, some mixture of Aryan incursions and drought caused the cities to be abandoned. The Dravida migrate to their west and south in search of better agricultural lands. They do not find these lands as empty as their ancestors found the Indus, as the locals have picked up some limited Neolithic knowledge. But they have enough of an advantage to dominate the new "mixed-race" polities, and impose their language.

    They don't stay ahead of the Aryan wave however, which ultimately sweeps over most of the Indo-Gangetic plain. The Aryans form what amounts to an empire of the word, if not a formal empire, linking together a huge region culturally and linguistically. This causes backflow of ASI-admixed people into the Indus Valley. Still, the level of ASI-admixture stays lower because the area was never fully abandoned. But today, the line between those with higher versus lower ANI still does roughly follow the Pakistan/India border.

    The problem with such a scenario, however, is the admixture between the ASI/ANI components would have to be nearly concurrent - at most a few centuries apart. If the two happened basically concurrently wouldn't we not be able to detect them at all?

    IVC art could tell us something about who they were:

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    • Replies: @SB
    The lady reminds me of Banjara from Rajasthan/Gujarat:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5008801504/
    , @skadhithjassisdottir
    There was a paper mentioning this figure in Advances in Anthropology. The figure likely represents an East African (a slave?) immigrant into their civilisation.
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  • Great to see a complex topic being addressed with some data. This paper shows a mixture event in the sequence: Andhra – Tamil Nadu – Kashmir (?) – and lastly Uttar and Pakistan.

    If late admixture dates can mask early admixture, this needs to be explicitly stated in the results.

    What kinds of dates turn up if samples from other places are used -
    Mongols, Australians, nothing should be a priori ruled out. Experimental design should probably be as open ended as possible, otherwise researchers are biasing results by a priori excluding what they think (“know”).

    ANI and ASI are theoretical constructs that the blogosphere now treats as some kind of given. Hypotheses and models (testable speculations) are great, but the next step is to run them through the gauntlet of aggressive data gathering and see how they hold up.

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  • @Greg Pandatshang
    Aren't Andaman Islanders an ASI population that is not admixed with ANI? The précis here seems to say so in so many words: http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2009_Nature_Reich_India.pdf . Are there studies that show ASI-relatedness of Veddas?

    no. they diverged from ANI 20-30,000 years ago. they are the unmixed population closest to ASI. additionally, in this paper they report that they might be differentially related to different ASI groups because of gene flow from ASI => andaman.

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    • Replies: @skadhithjassisdottir
    Don't forget (if they haven't mentioned it yet) technologies such as the bow and especially the outrigger canoe verify the existence of outside contacts that may have left genes there.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Aren’t Andaman Islanders an ASI population that is not admixed with ANI? The précis here seems to say so in so many words: http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2009_Nature_Reich_India.pdf . Are there studies that show ASI-relatedness of Veddas?

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    no. they diverged from ANI 20-30,000 years ago. they are the unmixed population closest to ASI. additionally, in this paper they report that they might be differentially related to different ASI groups because of gene flow from ASI => andaman.
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  • Nice to see them throw in this important disclaimer…

    “It is also important to recognize
    that a date of mixture is very different from the date of a
    migration; in particular, mixture always postdates migration.
    Nevertheless, a genetic date for the mixture would
    place a minimum on the date of migration and identify
    periods of important demographic change in India.”

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  • @Karl Zimmerman
    The date for the admixture seems a bit too recent to assume tight linkage with the Indus Valley Civilization. I mean, the upper range for the ASI/ANI admixture in this model is 2,000 BC. By this time the "mature" period of the IVC was virtually over. It had essentially collapsed entirely by 1300 BC, which isn't even in the mid-range of admixture dates. Instead, based upon the dates alone, you'd presume the mixture between the two groups happened because of the fall of the IVC, not the rise.

    Say some Near Eastern farmers migrated into the Indus Valley region from Persia near the dawn of agriculture. They found native populations living there, but they rather quickly displaced them with minimal admixture, leaving largely "pure" hunter gatherers to their east.

    Centuries later, some mixture of Aryan incursions and drought caused the cities to be abandoned. The Dravida migrate to their west and south in search of better agricultural lands. They do not find these lands as empty as their ancestors found the Indus, as the locals have picked up some limited Neolithic knowledge. But they have enough of an advantage to dominate the new "mixed-race" polities, and impose their language.

    They don't stay ahead of the Aryan wave however, which ultimately sweeps over most of the Indo-Gangetic plain. The Aryans form what amounts to an empire of the word, if not a formal empire, linking together a huge region culturally and linguistically. This causes backflow of ASI-admixed people into the Indus Valley. Still, the level of ASI-admixture stays lower because the area was never fully abandoned. But today, the line between those with higher versus lower ANI still does roughly follow the Pakistan/India border.

    The problem with such a scenario, however, is the admixture between the ASI/ANI components would have to be nearly concurrent - at most a few centuries apart. If the two happened basically concurrently wouldn't we not be able to detect them at all?

    1) my priors say the admixture dates are too recent.

    2) that being said, these methods are biased toward picking up the last signals. they could have missed earlier signals.

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  • The date for the admixture seems a bit too recent to assume tight linkage with the Indus Valley Civilization. I mean, the upper range for the ASI/ANI admixture in this model is 2,000 BC. By this time the “mature” period of the IVC was virtually over. It had essentially collapsed entirely by 1300 BC, which isn’t even in the mid-range of admixture dates. Instead, based upon the dates alone, you’d presume the mixture between the two groups happened because of the fall of the IVC, not the rise.

    Say some Near Eastern farmers migrated into the Indus Valley region from Persia near the dawn of agriculture. They found native populations living there, but they rather quickly displaced them with minimal admixture, leaving largely “pure” hunter gatherers to their east.

    Centuries later, some mixture of Aryan incursions and drought caused the cities to be abandoned. The Dravida migrate to their west and south in search of better agricultural lands. They do not find these lands as empty as their ancestors found the Indus, as the locals have picked up some limited Neolithic knowledge. But they have enough of an advantage to dominate the new “mixed-race” polities, and impose their language.

    They don’t stay ahead of the Aryan wave however, which ultimately sweeps over most of the Indo-Gangetic plain. The Aryans form what amounts to an empire of the word, if not a formal empire, linking together a huge region culturally and linguistically. This causes backflow of ASI-admixed people into the Indus Valley. Still, the level of ASI-admixture stays lower because the area was never fully abandoned. But today, the line between those with higher versus lower ANI still does roughly follow the Pakistan/India border.

    The problem with such a scenario, however, is the admixture between the ASI/ANI components would have to be nearly concurrent – at most a few centuries apart. If the two happened basically concurrently wouldn’t we not be able to detect them at all?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    1) my priors say the admixture dates are too recent.


    2) that being said, these methods are biased toward picking up the last signals. they could have missed earlier signals.

    , @Anonymous
    IVC art could tell us something about who they were:


    http://www.manatee.k12.fl.us/sites/elementary/ballard/art%20museum/India/Ancient/Harapadancer.jpg

    http://www.exoticindiaart.com/artimages/priest.jpg

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  • A few year ago there was a minor controversy when some evolutionary genomicists reported that they had reconstructed the genome of the extinct Taino people of Puerto Rico by reassembling fragments preserved in contemporary populations long since admixed. The controversy had to do with the fact that some individuals today claim to be Taino, and...
  • @Luis Aldamiz
    Alright. I checked the Wikipedia page on "Lebanese people" before I wrote such statement. However I only read then the introductory list and not the full one, where there are 400,000 Mexican-Lebanese listed (out of more than 100 million Mexicans), so my bad (but still quite negligible: <0.4%).

    In Haiti there are 15,000 Lebanese descendants apparently. I could not find any single mention of Lebanese descendants living in Cuba, Dominican Republic nor Puerto Rico anyhow.

    The website of the Lebanese, Syrian, and Palestinian Club in the Dominican Republic is at

    http://www.clublisipa.com.do

    Mostly well integrated, Christian or secular. I went to school with some of them in the 70ies when living there. Apart from the slightly curlier hair you couldn’t tell them apart from regular Dominican mestizos.

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  • I’d guess a North-African element for the “black” in K=8. Over-represented in Andalucia relative to Madrid, present in Madrid and Lisbon, but not elsewhere in Europe.

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  • @Razib Khan
    i agree with your general point (also, i think there are middle eastern HGDP populations in some of their runs), but this is not true "totally unheard of in Mexico." two mexicans that americans know of are carlos slim and salma hayek. americans don't know of too many mexicans.

    Alright. I checked the Wikipedia page on “Lebanese people” before I wrote such statement. However I only read then the introductory list and not the full one, where there are 400,000 Mexican-Lebanese listed (out of more than 100 million Mexicans), so my bad (but still quite negligible: <0.4%).

    In Haiti there are 15,000 Lebanese descendants apparently. I could not find any single mention of Lebanese descendants living in Cuba, Dominican Republic nor Puerto Rico anyhow.

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    • Replies: @M. Möhling
    The website of the Lebanese, Syrian, and Palestinian Club in the Dominican Republic is at
    http://www.clublisipa.com.do

    Mostly well integrated, Christian or secular. I went to school with some of them in the 70ies when living there. Apart from the slightly curlier hair you couldn't tell them apart from regular Dominican mestizos.

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  • @Luis Aldamiz
    But those are recent immigrants from the last century or so and in most places not too notable. Lebanese are quite common in places like Brazil or Argentina but in Colombia they only amount to c. 700,000 (out of 47 million people), being totally unheard of in Mexico, Cuba, Dominican Rep., Puerto Rico or Haiti.

    Razib is right that there definitely are Arab-Mexicans out there. Just in Cuernavaca, Mexico, where I studied during univeristy, there was an Arab family who lived down the street.

    Of course they’re a small proportion, but still, they’re around, and I think many of them end up not identifying as Arab or keeping their identity intact for too long.

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