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All Comments / By Jeff J. Brown
 All Comments / By Jeff J. Brown
    In order to understand China and how the world works, I am very lucky to have lived here during two very different time periods. It started 1990-1997. In the first book of The China Trilogy, 44 Days Backpacking in China, I called this period the Wild East Deng Xiaoping Buckaroo Days. It was intense, crazy...
  • @Joe Wong
    Before 1947 there was no such nation called "India." "India" is a western imperialist creation to enslave the Asians against the will of the indigenous people of South Asia, it is illegitimate alien and harmful to the Asians. The current "India" is an extension of its former colonial master, British imperialist, spreading their toxic divide-and-conquer discord among the Asians. Unless this fascist regressive caste system Hindutva get destroyed this toxic cancer will destroy all humanity with its regressive, inhuman and barbaric caste system.

    Half of the “India” is in armed struggles against this fascist regressive caste system Hindutva regime in New Delhi; it is time to support those freedom fighters to shake off the inhuman caste system yoke impose on them by the Hindutva.

    A typical Chinese imperialist idiot straight out of Commie brainwashing school.

    This is the Mughal Empire

    This is the Maurya Empire in the year 250 BC when China was a bunch of small states.

    Chinese commie imperialist wants to break up great Bharatvarsha, keep dreaming.

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  • @Greg the American
    An engineer, great. Fixing engineer screwups is speciality of mine.

    You overstate the problems with fracking because your preference is that fossil fuels need to be phased out.

    While you are ultimately likely right about that, I think what you don't understand is as follows.

    Wealth and dynamic economies are needed to provide the innovation and social dynamism to fix these kind of problems. Poor places where people just survive are the worst for environmental conditions. Rich places where technological progress may happen will provide the solutions to perhaps enable us to survive. In addition, rich places have low birth rates.

    I believe if you people hinder the oil economy, a very important facet of everyone's well being and oil is not to be understated in that regard, then you will undercut the very mechanism (wealth and prosperity) which will ultimately solve the very problem you claim to be concerned about.

    The disconnect we probably have, as is the disconnect in the article above, is that foolish people believe economic and technological progress can continue under socialism and central planning, be it for environmental purposes or whatever. This is your mistake.

    You are an engineer? It seems you make decision based on ideology and bigotry instead of data and logic, with engineers like you no wonder manufacturing in the USA going down the tube. Perhaps you need to pray to Milton Friedman before fixing engineer screwups.

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  • “Be careful when your narrative leaves Chinese borders – there you lose history and legitimate ethnic POV and start to come across as an apologist. The Indians have a POV, much of it, like yours, is valid.”

    I tried to be empathetic with Indian POV regarding its borders but I don’t see how it can be valid. For example regarding South Tibet (so called Arunachal Pradesh) Indians POV is basically this: “Our master[the British Raj] said this land should be theirs and hence it should be ours now.” Never mind the fact that no Chinese government has ever agreed to this (Indian, not British) land grab and the Tibetans in South Tibet has a history of fighting against the British/Indian intruders. I can understand that as a successor state to the British Raj India is entitled to the land grab under the British but what is the argument of India’s claim to a piece of land grab annexed by India?

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  • @Anonymous
    >''India actually get the reverse treatment of what the West treat China.''''And India is a land grabbing expansionist hampered only by its lack of hard power that is unable to project beyond its immediate neighbors. The Western media never reported on this.<''

    Wrong. India actually lost land.

    You dont see indians talk about what they think china did as much as chinese talk about what they think india did. Why? Its almost always chinese talking sh*t about india than the other way round. Most of the time its chinese who start it. Why?

    Before 1947 there never was a nation called “India.” “India” is a western imperialist creation to enslave the Asians against the will of the indigenous people of South Asia, it is illegitimate alien and harmful to the Asians. The current “India” is an extension of its former colonial master, British imperialist, spreading their toxic divide-and-conquer discord among the Asians. Unless this fascist regressive caste system Hindutva get destroyed this toxic cancer will destroy all humanity with its regressive, inhuman and barbaric caste system.

    Half of the “India” is in armed struggles against this fascist regressive caste system Hindutva regime in New Delhi; it is time to support those freedom fighters to shake off the inhuman caste system yoke impose on them by the Hindutva.

    BTW Tibetans are over-generous with their gratitude to their Indian hosts and are hesitant in reminding India of a small inconvenient truth: until 1951, the disputed border regions, Arurachal Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh and Uttarakhand, were neither Chinese nor Indian but Tibetan. Dalai Lama should ask Indian to give those historical Tibetan lands back and re-establish his theocratic serf kingdom again on those historical Tibetan lands.

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  • @denk

    'I suspected it, you wont accept what china did in tibet and also pass that blame to to india. '
     
    No its your hallucination. !

    I only point out there'r actually two Tibets.

    The Tibet proper in China enjoys free education, full subsidise in economy, exemption from one child rule...

    The Tibet in India, the one that no anglos/Indians wanna talk about,
    has AFSPA to bludgeon the 'chinki faced terrorists', thats what the Indian heartlanders call the NE folks. !

    But the fukus led west totally ignore the genocides in India's Tibet, bark 24x7 on 'oppression' in Tibet proper in China , sobs even engineered violent riots to 'prove' their point.

    'Also one has to do a cursory reading of china history to know that aksai chin, tibet, xinjiang , inner mongolia manchuria are not part of china.'
     
    Exactly, cursory is the word !

    Do you know why the Great Wall was built, kid ?
    well I've got news for you ......
    Its to stop the marauding Tibetens, Mongols, Manchus !

    In case you havent noticed,
    The Mongols, Manchus , Tibetans werent defenceless pussies cowering under the Hans jack boots, they were a constant menace at the Chinese border.
    The Mongols eventually conquered China, they later added Tibet to the empire !
    When the Hans toppled the Yuan under Mongols, it ushered in the Ming dynasty.
    Then the Manchus came in, thats was the Qing, the Manchu later added Xinjiang to the map ! ;-)

    Thats thousands yrs ago forchrissake,
    The days of warring tribes, its survival of the fittest.
    The Hans defended themselves against invading hordes for thousands of years, they eventually prevailed.

    You gotta hand it to the Hans, they didnt take revenge on the Mongols , Manchus who committed genocides during their rule, instead the vanquised invaders were allowed to assimilate and become part of the family !

    OTOH,
    Indian/murkkan imperialism happen in 20/21C, The supposedly civilised era !
    its real, right here, right now, right before our eyes !
    They committed genocides on defenceless people, the Nagas, Manipur, Assamese, Kashmiris,......Iraqis, Vietnamese. ,, Indonesians, .Japanese , Africans....
    In addition, The Indians always indulge in sadistic mass rapes orgies on the conquered people !

    There's no comparison bet the Chinese defensive wars thousands yrs ago, to current days Indian/anglo imperialistic conquests !

    Ergo,
    When China baiters yap about Chinese 'imperialism' on Tibet and Mongol, [sic] Manchu , They are really scraping the bottom of barrel, or downright clueless !

    ' tibetan monks burning themselves. '
     
    we know Tibet unrest is made in fukus/India,
    I have evidence the Tibetan refugees phenomenon is orchestrated by CIA/RAW,
    eRGO,
    Its highly plausible the self imolations are instigated by CIA/RAW/

    'Also regarding northeast i already said what indians did in some parts of north east india was bad. But these are rogue elements that dont represent all indians.
    Anti-social elements exist in every society. But i know you will still blame all the indians for it. So blame them, blame all of them a hundred times more.' [SIC]
     
    Rogue elements my ass !
    Check out on AFSPA !
    It sanctions 'shooting on sight', 'search without warrant',
    it allows soldiers to break into a suspect's house in the middle of the night,
    commit unmentionable crimes on the "suspect's family,
    it bestow total immunity from prosecution,
    In short, Its state terrorism !

    India/fukus are the world's top three rogue nations.
    Indians and their anglos soul mates are the last peope on earth to lecture China on human rights and imperialism.
    That'd be classic
    ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    hhhhhhh

    I REST MY CASE.

    I suggest reducing the number of “!” in your posts and only use boldface font to emphasize an operative point in a sentence that’s otherwise easily glossed over, don’t use it to suggest a raised voice. Both denote class and Americans are sensitive to that even when they claim it doesn’t exist – they will deny class exists at the same time as they dismiss your otherwise well-reasoned argument because you concluded it with:

    I REST MY CASE

    Americans are broadly ignorant of Chinese history and culture. Most know jack-shite about the Han or … anything. I mean if you want you can try to gauge your audience first by test-querying them on whether they get the idea of Cantonese versus Mandarin and geographic specifics – if they don’t … don’t be angry, just talk to them like they are children. Patiently. If they are humble about their ignorance, be respectful. If they are defiant with hubris, talk down to them. Don’t yell at them. Talk down to them, but be respectful when they defer within the space of their own ignorance.

    Be a teacher. We need to learn more about China. The Han get a bad rap, often under labels “Chinese” and “CCP”, so work to educate people on the differences. The Han have a proud history – one most Americans would respect if they knew it and understood it.

    Be careful when your narrative leaves Chinese borders – there you lose history and legitimate ethnic POV and start to come across as an apologist. The Indians have a POV, much of it, like yours, is valid.

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  • @Anonymous
    All indians think the same too thing too.... what those one or two clowns think, so let me add this too..... all indians automatically think indians invented flying saucers and that ganesha thing too. But you dont get it, it is slumdog pride, how can low IQ slumdogs (you didnt label all of them as slumdogs, but i am labelling them because we are), and all of us are rapists, beggars, thieves, looters too. So how can we have real pride? You are the great han, you deserve to have pride, nothing wrong with that.

    My hindi Bhai,

    IQ is just one of the aptitude tests. No big deal. People attached too much racial meaning to it.
    ‘Pride’ is a fuzzy thing. I’ve little habit of defending Chinese ‘racial pride’ though I might occasionally clarify certain things, like bits of Chinese history. If someone call Chinese slant eye 5′ tall midgets, honestly I don’t give a fuck. I care more about Chinese environment, energy.. future more than hollow pride.

    Finally good luck to you and Bharat !

    Chini Hindi Bhai Bhai !!

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin
    First of all, I don't label hindus as slumdogs. Meaningless. As I always emphasise China is a poor 3rd world country.A good example is construction workers,relatively better paid, in bigger chinese cities make no more than the equivalent of US min. wage.
    I do observe a major difference between hindus and han chinese: A century ago,it was fashionable among the chinese intelligentia,particularly the left,to bash Confucius. Confucist 'morality' was equated to 'cannibalism'. YES, FUCK CONFUCIUS. Waving a placard 'Confucius is a S.O.B.' in chinese streets nowadays without blocking traffic would not invite police interference nor a lynching mob. I dare say chinese are capable of retrospective self-examination. I guess it has to do with good chinese habit of history writing. The amount of pre-history chinese mythology is amazingly small.
    ..................
    The average chinese high school grads can read classical writings, albeit with some difficulty. Case in point, every chinese student learn a certain piece of history of the wars between kingdoms of Wu and Yue. The Yues were defeated, the king of Yue was imprisoned,then released back to his kingdom after licking the shit of the Wu king, revived his kingdom in 20 years and then defeated his enemy Wu kingdom.
    .........................
    Ron Unz has observed correctly chinese are Social Darwinian survivalists, I would like to add China is geopolitical Darwinist survivalist ever since the Korean war and has been living under the threat of at least one superpower......................
    Bharat on the other side has tomes of pre-history epics like the Mahabharata but grossly lacked historians and history readings until the muslims came. (At another forum, a hindus said I was wrong because he counted mythology and ancient songs as 'agents' of history,fact is where are the hindu history treatises?). Hindu society is/was decentralised/atomised as long as caste hierarchy is observed while chinese emperors always wanted 'unity under heaven'.
    http://www.historytoday.com/mihir-bose/india%E2%80%99s-missing-historians
    A consequence is that Hindus lack political history intuition. For whatever they lack they try to substitute with mythical morality or religious symbolism. Much of these institutions are basically casteism sanctified.
    Another consequence(as a third world nation)is the apologetical attitude towards Bharat's lack of modern tech achievement. So Mr. Modi told us, don't worry, ancient Bharat was very advanced: the Hindu elephant god was the result of xeno-transplanting an elephant head to a human torso. While other hindu nationalists claim ancient hindus invented flying saucer.
    The above are the more entertaining attempts on pride manufacturing I've read. Here's another example: https://thewire.in/110263/macaulays-speech-never-delivered/
    Finally, my apology if I hurt your hindu pride.

    All indians think the same too thing too…. what those one or two clowns think, so let me add this too….. all indians automatically think indians invented flying saucers and that ganesha thing too. But you dont get it, it is slumdog pride, how can low IQ slumdogs (you didnt label all of them as slumdogs, but i am labelling them because we are), and all of us are rapists, beggars, thieves, looters too. So how can we have real pride? You are the great han, you deserve to have pride, nothing wrong with that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lin
    My hindi Bhai,

    IQ is just one of the aptitude tests. No big deal. People attached too much racial meaning to it.
    'Pride' is a fuzzy thing. I've little habit of defending Chinese 'racial pride' though I might occasionally clarify certain things, like bits of Chinese history. If someone call Chinese slant eye 5' tall midgets, honestly I don't give a fuck. I care more about Chinese environment, energy.. future more than hollow pride.

    Finally good luck to you and Bharat !

    Chini Hindi Bhai Bhai !!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    These are the people of aksai chin, do they look chinese?

    https://www.google.co.in/search?q=bakarwal+people&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjIktLw1bnXAhUGLI8KHT_MBIsQsAQIMA&biw=1517&bih=735

    The captions of most of the pics say those are ‘bakarwal’ people, a mainly Kashmir tribe, they are not the majority of south Tibetans

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  • @Anonymous
    Thank you lin. And now blame all the indian soldiers. And then dont stop at that, blame all other indians of rape too. Wait..acccuse me of rape too, I am a rapist, i raped tons of people, i even raped anim*ls too. And not just rape accuse all of us of other crimes too, we are thieves, beggars, slumdogs, robbers, burglars, we robbed every thing from everybody, india is not even a country... it stole land from others. We originally came from a place called sh*ttistan and kicked and killed the original inhabitants of india the... you guessed it....chinese...and settled there. We are 4.7 ugly ducklings (remember that?) while you are 5.7 hr beautiful maidens. We eat where we sh*t, while you are so special you dont even have to sh*t. You are the great han while we are the great low IQ slumdogs. You are the middle kingdom, and you have the mandate of heaven. You people are truly great, truly special, so special that other people should worship the ground you walk on. And we are just the opposite. China should have nukes, have relations with everybody while india should not even exist. Everything that happens to china is india's fault and everything that happens to india is india's fault. Chinese are special , they do no wrong, because they are the great han, while indians do every thing wrong, because we are slumdogs. And every single one of us is a rapist, thief, burglar, beggar etc etc etc etc etc

    First of all, I don’t label hindus as slumdogs. Meaningless. As I always emphasise China is a poor 3rd world country.A good example is construction workers,relatively better paid, in bigger chinese cities make no more than the equivalent of US min. wage.
    I do observe a major difference between hindus and han chinese: A century ago,it was fashionable among the chinese intelligentia,particularly the left,to bash Confucius. Confucist ‘morality’ was equated to ‘cannibalism’. YES, FUCK CONFUCIUS. Waving a placard ‘Confucius is a S.O.B.’ in chinese streets nowadays without blocking traffic would not invite police interference nor a lynching mob. I dare say chinese are capable of retrospective self-examination. I guess it has to do with good chinese habit of history writing. The amount of pre-history chinese mythology is amazingly small.
    ………………
    The average chinese high school grads can read classical writings, albeit with some difficulty. Case in point, every chinese student learn a certain piece of history of the wars between kingdoms of Wu and Yue. The Yues were defeated, the king of Yue was imprisoned,then released back to his kingdom after licking the shit of the Wu king, revived his kingdom in 20 years and then defeated his enemy Wu kingdom.
    …………………….
    Ron Unz has observed correctly chinese are Social Darwinian survivalists, I would like to add China is geopolitical Darwinist survivalist ever since the Korean war and has been living under the threat of at least one superpower………………….
    Bharat on the other side has tomes of pre-history epics like the Mahabharata but grossly lacked historians and history readings until the muslims came. (At another forum, a hindus said I was wrong because he counted mythology and ancient songs as ‘agents’ of history,fact is where are the hindu history treatises?). Hindu society is/was decentralised/atomised as long as caste hierarchy is observed while chinese emperors always wanted ‘unity under heaven’.

    http://www.historytoday.com/mihir-bose/india%E2%80%99s-missing-historians

    A consequence is that Hindus lack political history intuition. For whatever they lack they try to substitute with mythical morality or religious symbolism. Much of these institutions are basically casteism sanctified.
    Another consequence(as a third world nation)is the apologetical attitude towards Bharat’s lack of modern tech achievement. So Mr. Modi told us, don’t worry, ancient Bharat was very advanced: the Hindu elephant god was the result of xeno-transplanting an elephant head to a human torso. While other hindu nationalists claim ancient hindus invented flying saucer.
    The above are the more entertaining attempts on pride manufacturing I’ve read. Here’s another example: https://thewire.in/110263/macaulays-speech-never-delivered/
    Finally, my apology if I hurt your hindu pride.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    All indians think the same too thing too.... what those one or two clowns think, so let me add this too..... all indians automatically think indians invented flying saucers and that ganesha thing too. But you dont get it, it is slumdog pride, how can low IQ slumdogs (you didnt label all of them as slumdogs, but i am labelling them because we are), and all of us are rapists, beggars, thieves, looters too. So how can we have real pride? You are the great han, you deserve to have pride, nothing wrong with that.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin
    https://smedia2.intoday.in/dailyo//fb_share_images/story_image/201704/fb_story_16754.jpg
    The rapes rampages are not confined to victims of Southern Tibet. Also happened to dalits of Bengal ..and Kashmiri muslims
    I congrat the hindu nationalist that the atrocities of their army were ignored because 1)they are useful anti-Chinese pawns 2)brown Aryans want to be accepted as sun tanned cousins of the white Aryans 3)As much as ex-president kalam claimed Bharat will be superpower by 2012, honestly the western powers do not consider them as serious contenders of power
    https://youtu.be/2SzchaoQfp4

    Thank you lin. And now blame all the indian soldiers. And then dont stop at that, blame all other indians of rape too. Wait..acccuse me of rape too, I am a rapist, i raped tons of people, i even raped anim*ls too. And not just rape accuse all of us of other crimes too, we are thieves, beggars, slumdogs, robbers, burglars, we robbed every thing from everybody, india is not even a country… it stole land from others. We originally came from a place called sh*ttistan and kicked and killed the original inhabitants of india the… you guessed it….chinese…and settled there. We are 4.7 ugly ducklings (remember that?) while you are 5.7 hr beautiful maidens. We eat where we sh*t, while you are so special you dont even have to sh*t. You are the great han while we are the great low IQ slumdogs. You are the middle kingdom, and you have the mandate of heaven. You people are truly great, truly special, so special that other people should worship the ground you walk on. And we are just the opposite. China should have nukes, have relations with everybody while india should not even exist. Everything that happens to china is india’s fault and everything that happens to india is india’s fault. Chinese are special , they do no wrong, because they are the great han, while indians do every thing wrong, because we are slumdogs. And every single one of us is a rapist, thief, burglar, beggar etc etc etc etc etc

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lin
    First of all, I don't label hindus as slumdogs. Meaningless. As I always emphasise China is a poor 3rd world country.A good example is construction workers,relatively better paid, in bigger chinese cities make no more than the equivalent of US min. wage.
    I do observe a major difference between hindus and han chinese: A century ago,it was fashionable among the chinese intelligentia,particularly the left,to bash Confucius. Confucist 'morality' was equated to 'cannibalism'. YES, FUCK CONFUCIUS. Waving a placard 'Confucius is a S.O.B.' in chinese streets nowadays without blocking traffic would not invite police interference nor a lynching mob. I dare say chinese are capable of retrospective self-examination. I guess it has to do with good chinese habit of history writing. The amount of pre-history chinese mythology is amazingly small.
    ..................
    The average chinese high school grads can read classical writings, albeit with some difficulty. Case in point, every chinese student learn a certain piece of history of the wars between kingdoms of Wu and Yue. The Yues were defeated, the king of Yue was imprisoned,then released back to his kingdom after licking the shit of the Wu king, revived his kingdom in 20 years and then defeated his enemy Wu kingdom.
    .........................
    Ron Unz has observed correctly chinese are Social Darwinian survivalists, I would like to add China is geopolitical Darwinist survivalist ever since the Korean war and has been living under the threat of at least one superpower......................
    Bharat on the other side has tomes of pre-history epics like the Mahabharata but grossly lacked historians and history readings until the muslims came. (At another forum, a hindus said I was wrong because he counted mythology and ancient songs as 'agents' of history,fact is where are the hindu history treatises?). Hindu society is/was decentralised/atomised as long as caste hierarchy is observed while chinese emperors always wanted 'unity under heaven'.
    http://www.historytoday.com/mihir-bose/india%E2%80%99s-missing-historians
    A consequence is that Hindus lack political history intuition. For whatever they lack they try to substitute with mythical morality or religious symbolism. Much of these institutions are basically casteism sanctified.
    Another consequence(as a third world nation)is the apologetical attitude towards Bharat's lack of modern tech achievement. So Mr. Modi told us, don't worry, ancient Bharat was very advanced: the Hindu elephant god was the result of xeno-transplanting an elephant head to a human torso. While other hindu nationalists claim ancient hindus invented flying saucer.
    The above are the more entertaining attempts on pride manufacturing I've read. Here's another example: https://thewire.in/110263/macaulays-speech-never-delivered/
    Finally, my apology if I hurt your hindu pride.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    The AFSPA doesnt allow rapes if thats what you think. But hey as i said blame all of them for it. Keep on doing it. Keep blaming every single one of them for it. Do it a hundred thousand times. Also N.E is not tibet. And some of the rest of your comment too can verified if its true or not by simple online searching. And/but a lot of what china does is 'secretive' the media is tightly controlled so we will never really know what happened in those places.


    The rapes rampages are not confined to victims of Southern Tibet. Also happened to dalits of Bengal ..and Kashmiri muslims
    I congrat the hindu nationalist that the atrocities of their army were ignored because 1)they are useful anti-Chinese pawns 2)brown Aryans want to be accepted as sun tanned cousins of the white Aryans 3)As much as ex-president kalam claimed Bharat will be superpower by 2012, honestly the western powers do not consider them as serious contenders of power

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Thank you lin. And now blame all the indian soldiers. And then dont stop at that, blame all other indians of rape too. Wait..acccuse me of rape too, I am a rapist, i raped tons of people, i even raped anim*ls too. And not just rape accuse all of us of other crimes too, we are thieves, beggars, slumdogs, robbers, burglars, we robbed every thing from everybody, india is not even a country... it stole land from others. We originally came from a place called sh*ttistan and kicked and killed the original inhabitants of india the... you guessed it....chinese...and settled there. We are 4.7 ugly ducklings (remember that?) while you are 5.7 hr beautiful maidens. We eat where we sh*t, while you are so special you dont even have to sh*t. You are the great han while we are the great low IQ slumdogs. You are the middle kingdom, and you have the mandate of heaven. You people are truly great, truly special, so special that other people should worship the ground you walk on. And we are just the opposite. China should have nukes, have relations with everybody while india should not even exist. Everything that happens to china is india's fault and everything that happens to india is india's fault. Chinese are special , they do no wrong, because they are the great han, while indians do every thing wrong, because we are slumdogs. And every single one of us is a rapist, thief, burglar, beggar etc etc etc etc etc
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The AFSPA doesnt allow rapes if thats what you think. But hey as i said blame all of them for it. Keep on doing it. Keep blaming every single one of them for it. Do it a hundred thousand times. Also N.E is not tibet. And some of the rest of your comment too can verified if its true or not by simple online searching. And/but a lot of what china does is ‘secretive’ the media is tightly controlled so we will never really know what happened in those places.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lin
    https://smedia2.intoday.in/dailyo//fb_share_images/story_image/201704/fb_story_16754.jpg
    The rapes rampages are not confined to victims of Southern Tibet. Also happened to dalits of Bengal ..and Kashmiri muslims
    I congrat the hindu nationalist that the atrocities of their army were ignored because 1)they are useful anti-Chinese pawns 2)brown Aryans want to be accepted as sun tanned cousins of the white Aryans 3)As much as ex-president kalam claimed Bharat will be superpower by 2012, honestly the western powers do not consider them as serious contenders of power
    https://youtu.be/2SzchaoQfp4
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    I suspected it, you wont accept what china did in tibet and also pass that blame to to india. Also one has to do a cursory reading of china history to know that aksai chin, tibet, xinjiang , inner mongolia manchuria are not part of china. (i only questioned china soveriegnity in tibet because you people said stuff like.... india is not even a country and instead occupied all its lands.) Also there are numerous links on the net about tibetan monks burning themselves. Also regarding northeast i already said what indians did in some parts of north east india was bad. But these are rogue elements that dont represent all indians. Anti-social elements exist in every society. But i know you will still blame all the indians for it. So blame them, blame all of them a hundred times more.

    Regarding british rule in inda, british barely had control of india for not more than 15o-200 years and that too they didnt control it entirely. But you said they had it for 300 years. This shows your ignorance right here. And you think you are qualified to judge whether india is a country or not? Also i forgot even tibetans dont consider all north eastern states as tibet. Also all people who look mongoloid are not chinese. You know it damn well. A lot of egyptians look like indians and vice versa but they are not the same country.

    ‘I suspected it, you wont accept what china did in tibet and also pass that blame to to india. ‘

    No its your hallucination. !

    I only point out there’r actually two Tibets.

    The Tibet proper in China enjoys free education, full subsidise in economy, exemption from one child rule…

    The Tibet in India, the one that no anglos/Indians wanna talk about,
    has AFSPA to bludgeon the ‘chinki faced terrorists‘, thats what the Indian heartlanders call the NE folks. !

    But the fukus led west totally ignore the genocides in India’s Tibet, bark 24×7 on ‘oppression’ in Tibet proper in China , sobs even engineered violent riots to ‘prove’ their point.

    ‘Also one has to do a cursory reading of china history to know that aksai chin, tibet, xinjiang , inner mongolia manchuria are not part of china.’

    Exactly, cursory is the word !

    Do you know why the Great Wall was built, kid ?
    well I’ve got news for you ……
    Its to stop the marauding Tibetens, Mongols, Manchus !

    In case you havent noticed,
    The Mongols, Manchus , Tibetans werent defenceless pussies cowering under the Hans jack boots, they were a constant menace at the Chinese border.
    The Mongols eventually conquered China, they later added Tibet to the empire !
    When the Hans toppled the Yuan under Mongols, it ushered in the Ming dynasty.
    Then the Manchus came in, thats was the Qing, the Manchu later added Xinjiang to the map ! ;-)

    Thats thousands yrs ago forchrissake,
    The days of warring tribes, its survival of the fittest.
    The Hans defended themselves against invading hordes for thousands of years, they eventually prevailed.

    You gotta hand it to the Hans, they didnt take revenge on the Mongols , Manchus who committed genocides during their rule, instead the vanquised invaders were allowed to assimilate and become part of the family !

    OTOH,
    Indian/murkkan imperialism happen in 20/21C, The supposedly civilised era !
    its real, right here, right now, right before our eyes !
    They committed genocides on defenceless people, the Nagas, Manipur, Assamese, Kashmiris,……Iraqis, Vietnamese. ,, Indonesians, .Japanese , Africans….
    In addition, The Indians always indulge in sadistic mass rapes orgies on the conquered people !

    There’s no comparison bet the Chinese defensive wars thousands yrs ago, to current days Indian/anglo imperialistic conquests !

    Ergo,
    When China baiters yap about Chinese ‘imperialism’ on Tibet and Mongol, [sic] Manchu , They are really scraping the bottom of barrel, or downright clueless !

    ‘ tibetan monks burning themselves. ‘

    we know Tibet unrest is made in fukus/India,
    I have evidence the Tibetan refugees phenomenon is orchestrated by CIA/RAW,
    eRGO,
    Its highly plausible the self imolations are instigated by CIA/RAW/

    ‘Also regarding northeast i already said what indians did in some parts of north east india was bad. But these are rogue elements that dont represent all indians.
    Anti-social elements exist in every society. But i know you will still blame all the indians for it. So blame them, blame all of them a hundred times more.’ [SIC]

    Rogue elements my ass !
    Check out on AFSPA !
    It sanctions ‘shooting on sight’, ‘search without warrant’,
    it allows soldiers to break into a suspect’s house in the middle of the night,
    commit unmentionable crimes on the “suspect’s family,
    it bestow total immunity from prosecution,
    In short, Its state terrorism !

    India/fukus are the world’s top three rogue nations.
    Indians and their anglos soul mates are the last peope on earth to lecture China on human rights and imperialism.
    That’d be classic
    ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    hhhhhhh

    I REST MY CASE.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    I suggest reducing the number of "!" in your posts and only use boldface font to emphasize an operative point in a sentence that's otherwise easily glossed over, don't use it to suggest a raised voice. Both denote class and Americans are sensitive to that even when they claim it doesn't exist - they will deny class exists at the same time as they dismiss your otherwise well-reasoned argument because you concluded it with:

    " I REST MY CASE"

    Americans are broadly ignorant of Chinese history and culture. Most know jack-shite about the Han or ... anything. I mean if you want you can try to gauge your audience first by test-querying them on whether they get the idea of Cantonese versus Mandarin and geographic specifics - if they don't ... don't be angry, just talk to them like they are children. Patiently. If they are humble about their ignorance, be respectful. If they are defiant with hubris, talk down to them. Don't yell at them. Talk down to them, but be respectful when they defer within the space of their own ignorance.

    Be a teacher. We need to learn more about China. The Han get a bad rap, often under labels "Chinese" and "CCP", so work to educate people on the differences. The Han have a proud history - one most Americans would respect if they knew it and understood it.

    Be careful when your narrative leaves Chinese borders - there you lose history and legitimate ethnic POV and start to come across as an apologist. The Indians have a POV, much of it, like yours, is valid.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I suspected it, you wont accept what china did in tibet and also pass that blame to to india. Also one has to do a cursory reading of china history to know that aksai chin, tibet, xinjiang , inner mongolia manchuria are not part of china. (i only questioned china soveriegnity in tibet because you people said stuff like…. india is not even a country and instead occupied all its lands.) Also there are numerous links on the net about tibetan monks burning themselves. Also regarding northeast i already said what indians did in some parts of north east india was bad. But these are rogue elements that dont represent all indians. Anti-social elements exist in every society. But i know you will still blame all the indians for it. So blame them, blame all of them a hundred times more.

    Regarding british rule in inda, british barely had control of india for not more than 15o-200 years and that too they didnt control it entirely. But you said they had it for 300 years. This shows your ignorance right here. And you think you are qualified to judge whether india is a country or not? Also i forgot even tibetans dont consider all north eastern states as tibet. Also all people who look mongoloid are not chinese. You know it damn well. A lot of egyptians look like indians and vice versa but they are not the same country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk

    'I suspected it, you wont accept what china did in tibet and also pass that blame to to india. '
     
    No its your hallucination. !

    I only point out there'r actually two Tibets.

    The Tibet proper in China enjoys free education, full subsidise in economy, exemption from one child rule...

    The Tibet in India, the one that no anglos/Indians wanna talk about,
    has AFSPA to bludgeon the 'chinki faced terrorists', thats what the Indian heartlanders call the NE folks. !

    But the fukus led west totally ignore the genocides in India's Tibet, bark 24x7 on 'oppression' in Tibet proper in China , sobs even engineered violent riots to 'prove' their point.

    'Also one has to do a cursory reading of china history to know that aksai chin, tibet, xinjiang , inner mongolia manchuria are not part of china.'
     
    Exactly, cursory is the word !

    Do you know why the Great Wall was built, kid ?
    well I've got news for you ......
    Its to stop the marauding Tibetens, Mongols, Manchus !

    In case you havent noticed,
    The Mongols, Manchus , Tibetans werent defenceless pussies cowering under the Hans jack boots, they were a constant menace at the Chinese border.
    The Mongols eventually conquered China, they later added Tibet to the empire !
    When the Hans toppled the Yuan under Mongols, it ushered in the Ming dynasty.
    Then the Manchus came in, thats was the Qing, the Manchu later added Xinjiang to the map ! ;-)

    Thats thousands yrs ago forchrissake,
    The days of warring tribes, its survival of the fittest.
    The Hans defended themselves against invading hordes for thousands of years, they eventually prevailed.

    You gotta hand it to the Hans, they didnt take revenge on the Mongols , Manchus who committed genocides during their rule, instead the vanquised invaders were allowed to assimilate and become part of the family !

    OTOH,
    Indian/murkkan imperialism happen in 20/21C, The supposedly civilised era !
    its real, right here, right now, right before our eyes !
    They committed genocides on defenceless people, the Nagas, Manipur, Assamese, Kashmiris,......Iraqis, Vietnamese. ,, Indonesians, .Japanese , Africans....
    In addition, The Indians always indulge in sadistic mass rapes orgies on the conquered people !

    There's no comparison bet the Chinese defensive wars thousands yrs ago, to current days Indian/anglo imperialistic conquests !

    Ergo,
    When China baiters yap about Chinese 'imperialism' on Tibet and Mongol, [sic] Manchu , They are really scraping the bottom of barrel, or downright clueless !

    ' tibetan monks burning themselves. '
     
    we know Tibet unrest is made in fukus/India,
    I have evidence the Tibetan refugees phenomenon is orchestrated by CIA/RAW,
    eRGO,
    Its highly plausible the self imolations are instigated by CIA/RAW/

    'Also regarding northeast i already said what indians did in some parts of north east india was bad. But these are rogue elements that dont represent all indians.
    Anti-social elements exist in every society. But i know you will still blame all the indians for it. So blame them, blame all of them a hundred times more.' [SIC]
     
    Rogue elements my ass !
    Check out on AFSPA !
    It sanctions 'shooting on sight', 'search without warrant',
    it allows soldiers to break into a suspect's house in the middle of the night,
    commit unmentionable crimes on the "suspect's family,
    it bestow total immunity from prosecution,
    In short, Its state terrorism !

    India/fukus are the world's top three rogue nations.
    Indians and their anglos soul mates are the last peope on earth to lecture China on human rights and imperialism.
    That'd be classic
    ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    hhhhhhh

    I REST MY CASE.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @denk
    As expected, you've zero evidence to back up that Indian intel [sic] B,S. !
    Indians and their anglo soul mates malign others of doing what they'r actually doing themselves,
    Thats classic anglo/Indian M.O.,
    ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    'but we dont know what chinese did in those territories they occupied because there wasnt equivalent free media there. '
     
    EXACTLY !
    You and your anglo soul mates fabricated stories about Tibet 'oppressions', while India has been committing genocides in its own part of Tibet.

    Thats classic
    ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    'And on top of of it also say stuff like india is not even a country? WTF
     
    ?

    What we say is , *India was not even a country until the god damned Brits stitch it up and laid a mine field in Asia*,
    Eveybody in Asia and his dog knows it...
    'The British Empire after over 300 years of colonial rule created India by cobbling independent princely states and territories and gave it independence in 1947 together with Pakistan'

    ffhttps://www.asia-pacificresearch.com/why-is-sri-lanka-granting-india-control-over-our-national-and-energy-security/5582980

    'Will you judge your own country by the same standards you judge india? Will you own up to your countries mistakes like i did? I will see.'
     
    Wrong again wise guy, !

    Im NOT a Chinese citizen.

    But I'd condemn China the same way I call out murkkan/Indian B.S.,
    If I see any evidence of Its wrong doings !

    hhhhh
    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    That said its really sad what happened in nagaland. I am just saying. Even if you dont admit to what your country did i will still stand by this. It really should not have happened. India doesnt need somebody else's land or resources, it didnt have to do it. Some people believe nagas had support of foreign elements and/or china which were encouraging secession of nagaland from india (but i dont believe it, i dont think any foreign country including china supported nagas, i dont think any foreign country or china had a hand in it). But indian govt thought so and also because it thought nagaland and other north-eastern state was/is indian territory in which nagas came and settled. I personally dont know if nagaland was originally a part of india or not.

    In spite of all this, indians still should not have done all that. If the nagas really did not want to part with the land india should have just let them break away. Its really not worth doing all that.

    And Manipur….

    Does she look Indian or Chinese ?

    Dragged from her bed in the middle of the night , raped infront of her family, kidnapped to the army barrack and gang raped again., then killed and dumped in the field.
    autopsy showed multiple gun shot wounds at her private part , apparently to ofuscate the crime.

    http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2118/stories/20040910007400400.htm

    Killers still at large , committing the same crimes all over the NE and Kashmir.
    Not a peep from those god damned anglo ‘human rights crusaders’
    hhhhhhh

    The assamese

    http://web.archive.org/web/20070814055827/http://www.telegraphnepal.com/news_det.php?news_id=1362

    The so-called seven sisters,
    Arunachal Pradesh. Assam. Manipur. Meghalaya. Mizoram. Nagaland. Sikkim. Tripura. in the Indian NE
    Every ‘sister’ has a blood curdling story to tell .

    Why do they all look like Chinese and how did they end up in India ?

    Here’s a dirty little secret !
    These were mostly part of Southern Tibet and its peripherals until it was carved out from China by your Brit soul mates, those that escaped the Brits dirty paws were mopped up by India after it got it’s own independence !
    Like ‘father’ like son eh ?
    You got your independence but the others werent allowed to get theirs ?

    THIS IS
    THE TIBET THAT NO ANGLOS/INDIANS WANNA TALK ABOUT !

    The next time you question China’s sovereignty in Tibet, remember there’r four fingers pointing back to you.

    Ergo,
    its classic ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    If its true, then it is really sad. As an indian i am very ashamed of it. I have no qualms in saying it. It should not have happened. As an indian i really deeply apologize to the nagas. But the last people in the world who can point fingers at indians are the chinese. You people conquered and occupied aksai chin, tibet, xingiang, inner-mongolia, manchuria, and then run around telling people that india occupied all its neighbors?? And then say stuff ''robber calling robbery''?? And on top of of it also say stuff like india is not even a country? WTF? Also, we saw accounts of what indians did, but we dont know what chinese did in those territories they occupied because there wasnt equivalent free media there. Tibetan monks burning themselves is one example (and if you have any sh*me you will admit like i did that it was wrong on the part of the chinese, and instead wont do stuff like deliberately passing blame by saying stuff like indian intelligence agencies paid them to do it).

    Will you judge your own country by the same standards you judge india? Will you own up to your countries mistakes like i did? I will see.

    As expected, you’ve zero evidence to back up that Indian intel [sic] B,S. !
    Indians and their anglo soul mates malign others of doing what they’r actually doing themselves,
    Thats classic anglo/Indian M.O.,
    ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    ‘but we dont know what chinese did in those territories they occupied because there wasnt equivalent free media there. ‘

    EXACTLY !
    You and your anglo soul mates fabricated stories about Tibet ‘oppressions’, while India has been committing genocides in its own part of Tibet.

    Thats classic
    ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    ‘And on top of of it also say stuff like india is not even a country? WTF

    ?

    What we say is , *India was not even a country until the god damned Brits stitch it up and laid a mine field in Asia*,
    Eveybody in Asia and his dog knows it…
    ‘The British Empire after over 300 years of colonial rule created India by cobbling independent princely states and territories and gave it independence in 1947 together with Pakistan’

    ffhttps://www.asia-pacificresearch.com/why-is-sri-lanka-granting-india-control-over-our-national-and-energy-security/5582980

    ‘Will you judge your own country by the same standards you judge india? Will you own up to your countries mistakes like i did? I will see.’

    Wrong again wise guy, !

    Im NOT a Chinese citizen.

    But I’d condemn China the same way I call out murkkan/Indian B.S.,
    If I see any evidence of Its wrong doings !

    hhhhh

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk
    Here's that broken link again...

    https://www.asia-pacificresearch.com/why-is-sri-lanka-granting-india-control-over-our-national-and-energy-security/5582980
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    That said its really sad what happened in nagaland. I am just saying. Even if you dont admit to what your country did i will still stand by this. It really should not have happened. India doesnt need somebody else’s land or resources, it didnt have to do it. Some people believe nagas had support of foreign elements and/or china which were encouraging secession of nagaland from india (but i dont believe it, i dont think any foreign country including china supported nagas, i dont think any foreign country or china had a hand in it). But indian govt thought so and also because it thought nagaland and other north-eastern state was/is indian territory in which nagas came and settled. I personally dont know if nagaland was originally a part of india or not.

    In spite of all this, indians still should not have done all that. If the nagas really did not want to part with the land india should have just let them break away. Its really not worth doing all that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk
    And Manipur....

    Does she look Indian or Chinese ?
    http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2118/images/20040910007400402.jpg

    Dragged from her bed in the middle of the night , raped infront of her family, kidnapped to the army barrack and gang raped again., then killed and dumped in the field.
    autopsy showed multiple gun shot wounds at her private part , apparently to ofuscate the crime.
    http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2118/stories/20040910007400400.htm

    Killers still at large , committing the same crimes all over the NE and Kashmir.
    Not a peep from those god damned anglo 'human rights crusaders'
    hhhhhhh


    The assamese
    http://web.archive.org/web/20070814055827/http://www.telegraphnepal.com/news_det.php?news_id=1362


    The so-called seven sisters,
    Arunachal Pradesh. Assam. Manipur. Meghalaya. Mizoram. Nagaland. Sikkim. Tripura. in the Indian NE
    Every 'sister' has a blood curdling story to tell .


    Why do they all look like Chinese and how did they end up in India ?

    Here's a dirty little secret !
    These were mostly part of Southern Tibet and its peripherals until it was carved out from China by your Brit soul mates, those that escaped the Brits dirty paws were mopped up by India after it got it's own independence !
    Like 'father' like son eh ?
    You got your independence but the others werent allowed to get theirs ?

    THIS IS
    THE TIBET THAT NO ANGLOS/INDIANS WANNA TALK ABOUT !

    The next time you question China's sovereignty in Tibet, remember there'r four fingers pointing back to you.

    Ergo,
    its classic ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @denk
    Wise guy,

    Can you explain why the so-called Indian NE folks definitely look like Chinese rather than Indian ?

    You can start with the Nagas,
    http://viralstories.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/different-_tribesIndia18.jpg

    Here's their blood soaked story...
    https://www.quora.com/Will-Nagaland-and-Manipur-get-freedom-from-India

    If its true, then it is really sad. As an indian i am very ashamed of it. I have no qualms in saying it. It should not have happened. As an indian i really deeply apologize to the nagas. But the last people in the world who can point fingers at indians are the chinese. You people conquered and occupied aksai chin, tibet, xingiang, inner-mongolia, manchuria, and then run around telling people that india occupied all its neighbors?? And then say stuff ”robber calling robbery”?? And on top of of it also say stuff like india is not even a country? WTF? Also, we saw accounts of what indians did, but we dont know what chinese did in those territories they occupied because there wasnt equivalent free media there. Tibetan monks burning themselves is one example (and if you have any sh*me you will admit like i did that it was wrong on the part of the chinese, and instead wont do stuff like deliberately passing blame by saying stuff like indian intelligence agencies paid them to do it).

    Will you judge your own country by the same standards you judge india? Will you own up to your countries mistakes like i did? I will see.

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk
    As expected, you've zero evidence to back up that Indian intel [sic] B,S. !
    Indians and their anglo soul mates malign others of doing what they'r actually doing themselves,
    Thats classic anglo/Indian M.O.,
    ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    'but we dont know what chinese did in those territories they occupied because there wasnt equivalent free media there. '
     
    EXACTLY !
    You and your anglo soul mates fabricated stories about Tibet 'oppressions', while India has been committing genocides in its own part of Tibet.

    Thats classic
    ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    'And on top of of it also say stuff like india is not even a country? WTF
     
    ?

    What we say is , *India was not even a country until the god damned Brits stitch it up and laid a mine field in Asia*,
    Eveybody in Asia and his dog knows it...
    'The British Empire after over 300 years of colonial rule created India by cobbling independent princely states and territories and gave it independence in 1947 together with Pakistan'

    ffhttps://www.asia-pacificresearch.com/why-is-sri-lanka-granting-india-control-over-our-national-and-energy-security/5582980

    'Will you judge your own country by the same standards you judge india? Will you own up to your countries mistakes like i did? I will see.'
     
    Wrong again wise guy, !

    Im NOT a Chinese citizen.

    But I'd condemn China the same way I call out murkkan/Indian B.S.,
    If I see any evidence of Its wrong doings !

    hhhhh
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    >>''forchrissake, !
    I already told you the Bharat and the MSM are even nuttier than their murkkan soul mates.<>They even had the cheek to accuse China as the mastermind behind the 2001 Nepalese palace bloodbath…
    When every NEpalese and his dog believe its the handiwork of
    CIA/RAW !<>stop throwing Indian cow dungs at me !
    I wanna see smoking guns !
    Such as the Clark testimony, the declassified murkkan embassy mails,
    the five star hotel that harbor Nepalese maoists head honcho…''<<

    Who accused china of that? me?

    Also its you all who have been throwing cow dung at me from the beginning here.

    And you want to see something like a five star hotel where chinese could have plotted to supply maoists in india? I dont know which hotel they plotted it in.

    And i know this is an adult site so start acting like one. Address my comments not personal attacks or name calling or addressing me personally as dude or dudette or hindu or muslim etc

    ‘Also its you all who have been throwing cow dung at me from the beginning here.’

    Hey kid.,

    I show you….

    1] testimony from Oz, murkkan and those perfidious albions, all Indian soul mates, that Indian troops intruded way beyond the Indian claimed Mcmahon line into Chinese territories, you cant get more authentic than that !

    2]De-classified murkkan embassy files documenting Indian complicity in the 1959 Tibet riots and later destabilisations.

    3] Nepalese parliamentary fact finding team’s eye-witness account of meeting with Nepalese maoist chief in Delhi, in the presence of Indian defence minister !

    You throw me a god damned wiki link on 1962
    and a claim by the notorious Indian intel on China.

    Who’s the one throwing Indian cow dungs ?

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chinese-intelligence-training-and-funding-maoists-in-india/1/186191.html&#8217;

    Im still waiting for your evidence ?
    like I say, you and your murkkan soul mates cant even differentiate bet
    fact and fiction !
    hhhhhh

    ‘And i know this is an adult site so start acting like one. Address my comments not personal attacks or name calling or addressing me personally as dude or dudette or hindu or muslim etc’

    sorry you just dont get it !
    This is an adult site,
    meaning we dont beat about the bush,
    we like to call a spade a spade.

    If you cant take the heat…….

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    These are the people of aksai chin, do they look chinese?

    https://www.google.co.in/search?q=bakarwal+people&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjIktLw1bnXAhUGLI8KHT_MBIsQsAQIMA&biw=1517&bih=735

    Wise guy,

    Can you explain why the so-called Indian NE folks definitely look like Chinese rather than Indian ?

    You can start with the Nagas,

    Here’s their blood soaked story…

    https://www.quora.com/Will-Nagaland-and-Manipur-get-freedom-from-India

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    If its true, then it is really sad. As an indian i am very ashamed of it. I have no qualms in saying it. It should not have happened. As an indian i really deeply apologize to the nagas. But the last people in the world who can point fingers at indians are the chinese. You people conquered and occupied aksai chin, tibet, xingiang, inner-mongolia, manchuria, and then run around telling people that india occupied all its neighbors?? And then say stuff ''robber calling robbery''?? And on top of of it also say stuff like india is not even a country? WTF? Also, we saw accounts of what indians did, but we dont know what chinese did in those territories they occupied because there wasnt equivalent free media there. Tibetan monks burning themselves is one example (and if you have any sh*me you will admit like i did that it was wrong on the part of the chinese, and instead wont do stuff like deliberately passing blame by saying stuff like indian intelligence agencies paid them to do it).

    Will you judge your own country by the same standards you judge india? Will you own up to your countries mistakes like i did? I will see.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @denk

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chinese-intelligence-training-and-funding-maoists-in-india/1/186191.html
     
    forchrissake, !
    I already told you the Bharat and the MSM are even nuttier than their murkkan soul mates.

    They even had the cheek to accuse China as the mastermind behind the 2001 Nepalese palace bloodbath...
    When every NEpalese and his dog believe its the handiwork of
    CIA/RAW !


    stop throwing Indian cow dungs at me !
    I wanna see smoking guns !
    Such as the Clark testimony, the declassified murkkan embassy mails,
    the five star hotel that harbor Nepalese maoists head honcho...


    As i implied dont address me as dude or dudette or anything. Stick to the discussion.Cant do that?
     
    This is an adult site, dude !

    >>”forchrissake, !
    I already told you the Bharat and the MSM are even nuttier than their murkkan soul mates.<>They even had the cheek to accuse China as the mastermind behind the 2001 Nepalese palace bloodbath…
    When every NEpalese and his dog believe its the handiwork of
    CIA/RAW !<>stop throwing Indian cow dungs at me !
    I wanna see smoking guns !
    Such as the Clark testimony, the declassified murkkan embassy mails,
    the five star hotel that harbor Nepalese maoists head honcho…”<<

    Who accused china of that? me?

    Also its you all who have been throwing cow dung at me from the beginning here.

    And you want to see something like a five star hotel where chinese could have plotted to supply maoists in india? I dont know which hotel they plotted it in.

    And i know this is an adult site so start acting like one. Address my comments not personal attacks or name calling or addressing me personally as dude or dudette or hindu or muslim etc

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk

    'Also its you all who have been throwing cow dung at me from the beginning here.'
     
    Hey kid.,

    I show you....

    1] testimony from Oz, murkkan and those perfidious albions, all Indian soul mates, that Indian troops intruded way beyond the Indian claimed Mcmahon line into Chinese territories, you cant get more authentic than that !

    2]De-classified murkkan embassy files documenting Indian complicity in the 1959 Tibet riots and later destabilisations.

    3] Nepalese parliamentary fact finding team's eye-witness account of meeting with Nepalese maoist chief in Delhi, in the presence of Indian defence minister !

    You throw me a god damned wiki link on 1962
    and a claim by the notorious Indian intel on China.

    Who's the one throwing Indian cow dungs ?

    'http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chinese-intelligence-training-and-funding-maoists-in-india/1/186191.html'
     
    Im still waiting for your evidence ?
    like I say, you and your murkkan soul mates cant even differentiate bet
    fact and fiction !
    hhhhhh

    'And i know this is an adult site so start acting like one. Address my comments not personal attacks or name calling or addressing me personally as dude or dudette or hindu or muslim etc'
     
    sorry you just dont get it !
    This is an adult site,
    meaning we dont beat about the bush,
    we like to call a spade a spade.

    If you cant take the heat.......
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @DB Cooper
    "Lol there was a concept of ‘bharat’ since millenia. "

    You are confusing mythology with history. The mauryan empire and others are cooked up by pseudo British historians like James Prinseps and others during the Raj to help to forge a sense of community across disparage groups to facilitate British rule. It was ridiculed and never taken seriously during the Raj era among Indian's scholar because they saw through it as yet another colonial duplicity for the benefit of the Raj. A unified polity in the subcontinent whether under what name it is has never existed until the British arrived and created one. India is an artificial country created as a result of de-colonialization and there is nothing wrong with that. Indians should be honest and proud with themselves and not try to be something they are not.

    *FACEPALM*

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chinese-intelligence-training-and-funding-maoists-in-india/1/186191.html

    As i implied dont address me as dude or dudette or anything. Stick to the discussion.Cant do that?

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chinese-intelligence-training-and-funding-maoists-in-india/1/186191.html

    forchrissake, !
    I already told you the Bharat and the MSM are even nuttier than their murkkan soul mates.

    They even had the cheek to accuse China as the mastermind behind the 2001 Nepalese palace bloodbath…
    When every NEpalese and his dog believe its the handiwork of
    CIA/RAW !

    stop throwing Indian cow dungs at me !
    I wanna see smoking guns !
    Such as the Clark testimony, the declassified murkkan embassy mails,
    the five star hotel that harbor Nepalese maoists head honcho…

    As i implied dont address me as dude or dudette or anything. Stick to the discussion.Cant do that?

    This is an adult site, dude !

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    >>''forchrissake, !
    I already told you the Bharat and the MSM are even nuttier than their murkkan soul mates.<>They even had the cheek to accuse China as the mastermind behind the 2001 Nepalese palace bloodbath…
    When every NEpalese and his dog believe its the handiwork of
    CIA/RAW !<>stop throwing Indian cow dungs at me !
    I wanna see smoking guns !
    Such as the Clark testimony, the declassified murkkan embassy mails,
    the five star hotel that harbor Nepalese maoists head honcho…''<<

    Who accused china of that? me?

    Also its you all who have been throwing cow dung at me from the beginning here.

    And you want to see something like a five star hotel where chinese could have plotted to supply maoists in india? I dont know which hotel they plotted it in.

    And i know this is an adult site so start acting like one. Address my comments not personal attacks or name calling or addressing me personally as dude or dudette or hindu or muslim etc

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    These are the people of aksai chin, do they look chinese?

    https://www.google.co.in/search?q=bakarwal+people&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjIktLw1bnXAhUGLI8KHT_MBIsQsAQIMA&biw=1517&bih=735

    These are the people of aksai chin, do they look chinese?

    No, because they are mostly Indian, Pakistani, and Afgan:

    Bakarwal (or Gujjar – Bakharwal) is a mostly-Sunni Muslim[3] nomadic tribe based in the Pir Panjal and Himalayan mountains of South Asia. They are mainly goatherds and shepherds. They are found in the entire Kashmir region of India and in the Nuristan province of Afghanistan

    Possibly a few of them do live in Aksai Chin, but your link leads to images of Bakarwal nomads.

    China is also a large county with many different “looks”.

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  • @Anonymous
    Lol there was a concept of 'bharat' since millenia. Also bharat khand. And bharateeya too. It means indian. british only helped in 'political' unification. Heck even that was done by indians mostly, read philipp's comment above. And this unification was there in various ways earlier also. Under the maratha empire, the mauryan empire, the gupta empire etc. Read entire indian history from the beginning if you are interested. The word 'india' is a modern word, not the country. I can say a lot of similar things about china, dont provoke me please.

    “Lol there was a concept of ‘bharat’ since millenia. ”

    You are confusing mythology with history. The mauryan empire and others are cooked up by pseudo British historians like James Prinseps and others during the Raj to help to forge a sense of community across disparage groups to facilitate British rule. It was ridiculed and never taken seriously during the Raj era among Indian’s scholar because they saw through it as yet another colonial duplicity for the benefit of the Raj. A unified polity in the subcontinent whether under what name it is has never existed until the British arrived and created one. India is an artificial country created as a result of de-colonialization and there is nothing wrong with that. Indians should be honest and proud with themselves and not try to be something they are not.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    *FACEPALM*
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  • Read More
    • Replies: @Hu Mi Yu

    These are the people of aksai chin, do they look chinese?
     
    No, because they are mostly Indian, Pakistani, and Afgan:

    Bakarwal (or Gujjar - Bakharwal) is a mostly-Sunni Muslim[3] nomadic tribe based in the Pir Panjal and Himalayan mountains of South Asia. They are mainly goatherds and shepherds. They are found in the entire Kashmir region of India and in the Nuristan province of Afghanistan
     
    Possibly a few of them do live in Aksai Chin, but your link leads to images of Bakarwal nomads.

    China is also a large county with many different "looks".
    , @denk
    Wise guy,

    Can you explain why the so-called Indian NE folks definitely look like Chinese rather than Indian ?

    You can start with the Nagas,
    http://viralstories.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/different-_tribesIndia18.jpg

    Here's their blood soaked story...
    https://www.quora.com/Will-Nagaland-and-Manipur-get-freedom-from-India
    , @Lin
    The captions of most of the pics say those are 'bakarwal' people, a mainly Kashmir tribe, they are not the majority of south Tibetans
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  • Its one thing to say india did this or that, and its an entirely different thing to say stuff like india is not even a country or it didnt even exist before. There was no need to say all that.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper
    "Those territories were already ‘indian’ to begin with."

    You should know that had not the bully British cobbled together disparage people of the subcontinent along the railway the British built and made it into a single polity called British India, modern India would not have even existed. The concept of being an 'Indian' is a very recent one. Even Gandhi does not know he was an Indian until he was classified as one when he boarded a train in South Africa. There is no such thing as already 'Indian' to begin with. India is an artificial country created as a result of de-colonialization in the last century, much like a lot of the countries in the middle east and Africa and South America.

    Lol there was a concept of ‘bharat’ since millenia. Also bharat khand. And bharateeya too. It means indian. british only helped in ‘political’ unification. Heck even that was done by indians mostly, read philipp’s comment above. And this unification was there in various ways earlier also. Under the maratha empire, the mauryan empire, the gupta empire etc. Read entire indian history from the beginning if you are interested. The word ‘india’ is a modern word, not the country. I can say a lot of similar things about china, dont provoke me please.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    "Lol there was a concept of ‘bharat’ since millenia. "

    You are confusing mythology with history. The mauryan empire and others are cooked up by pseudo British historians like James Prinseps and others during the Raj to help to forge a sense of community across disparage groups to facilitate British rule. It was ridiculed and never taken seriously during the Raj era among Indian's scholar because they saw through it as yet another colonial duplicity for the benefit of the Raj. A unified polity in the subcontinent whether under what name it is has never existed until the British arrived and created one. India is an artificial country created as a result of de-colonialization and there is nothing wrong with that. Indians should be honest and proud with themselves and not try to be something they are not.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    everything is part of china, even india is part of china!

    In case you don’t know part of China is still occupied by India. South Tibet was invaded and annexed by India in 1951, four years after the British Raj left the subcontinent. According to international law India is entitled to whatever land grab the Raj has stole but not anymore. This land grab is solely under the new country India.

    In case you don’t know where is South Tibet it was renamed by India to the so called ‘Arunachal Pradesh’ in 1987 to fool the people of the world by giving it a Hindu sounding name.

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  • @Anonymous
    Those territories were already 'indian' to begin with.

    “Those territories were already ‘indian’ to begin with.”

    You should know that had not the bully British cobbled together disparage people of the subcontinent along the railway the British built and made it into a single polity called British India, modern India would not have even existed. The concept of being an ‘Indian’ is a very recent one. Even Gandhi does not know he was an Indian until he was classified as one when he boarded a train in South Africa. There is no such thing as already ‘Indian’ to begin with. India is an artificial country created as a result of de-colonialization in the last century, much like a lot of the countries in the middle east and Africa and South America.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Lol there was a concept of 'bharat' since millenia. Also bharat khand. And bharateeya too. It means indian. british only helped in 'political' unification. Heck even that was done by indians mostly, read philipp's comment above. And this unification was there in various ways earlier also. Under the maratha empire, the mauryan empire, the gupta empire etc. Read entire indian history from the beginning if you are interested. The word 'india' is a modern word, not the country. I can say a lot of similar things about china, dont provoke me please.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @DB Cooper
    ''In 1950, the Chinese People's Liberation Army annexed Tibet and later the Chinese extended their influence by building a road in 1956–67[11] and placing border posts in Aksai Chin. ''
    They entered into aksai chin.

    Tibet is part of China longer than the United States. Tibet has been recognized to be part of China by most countries in the world (including Britain, US...etc) long before Communist China even exist. That the issue of Tibet even exists is because the British Raj try to carve Tibet out of China during the heydays of colonialism. Hong Kong was not the only territory the British coveted. It is totally justified according to international law that any country has the rights to resist part of its territory from being carved out. The PLA entered into Tibet is totally legit.

    Aksai Chin has always been part of China. It was never part of British India.

    everything is part of china, even india is part of china!

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    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    In case you don't know part of China is still occupied by India. South Tibet was invaded and annexed by India in 1951, four years after the British Raj left the subcontinent. According to international law India is entitled to whatever land grab the Raj has stole but not anymore. This land grab is solely under the new country India.

    In case you don't know where is South Tibet it was renamed by India to the so called 'Arunachal Pradesh' in 1987 to fool the people of the world by giving it a Hindu sounding name.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Philip Owen
    The British did not simply invade other states in India. The Dominion of India invaded over 600 independent territories after independence. Some were tiny but some were large and functional as separate countries. She n Britain was around, they didn't need armies so we're helpless.

    Those territories were already ‘indian’ to begin with.

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    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    "Those territories were already ‘indian’ to begin with."

    You should know that had not the bully British cobbled together disparage people of the subcontinent along the railway the British built and made it into a single polity called British India, modern India would not have even existed. The concept of being an 'Indian' is a very recent one. Even Gandhi does not know he was an Indian until he was classified as one when he boarded a train in South Africa. There is no such thing as already 'Indian' to begin with. India is an artificial country created as a result of de-colonialization in the last century, much like a lot of the countries in the middle east and Africa and South America.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @denk

    Please point out to me where in the link it said delhi was training nepal maoists to topple nepal monarchy?
     
    YOu havent been paying attention dude,

    Every Nepalese and his dog knows Maoists were harbored and trained in India !

    '“Who sheltered them? Who trained them? This is an open secret.

    A parliamentary delegation had gone there (New Delhi). They were shown a five star hotel and a room and told that this was here Pushpa Kamal [Nepalese maoists head honcho] had lived for eight years.”

    In a hotel just in front of the parliamentary building Girija Babu had met with Pushpa Kamal for the first time. The then Indian Defense Minister George Fernandes was also present there. To meet Pushpa Kamal for the second time, Girija Babu was put in an Indian Navy helicopter in New Delhi to go to an Agriculture Farm some 22 kilometers far.

    What more proof you want ?'

    http://www.telegraphnepal.com/headline/2015-01-08/nepal-maoist:-indian-trojan-horse-comrade-rohit-talks-to-media

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chinese-intelligence-training-and-funding-maoists-in-india/1/186191.html

    As i implied dont address me as dude or dudette or anything. Stick to the discussion.Cant do that?

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    • Replies: @denk

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chinese-intelligence-training-and-funding-maoists-in-india/1/186191.html
     
    forchrissake, !
    I already told you the Bharat and the MSM are even nuttier than their murkkan soul mates.

    They even had the cheek to accuse China as the mastermind behind the 2001 Nepalese palace bloodbath...
    When every NEpalese and his dog believe its the handiwork of
    CIA/RAW !


    stop throwing Indian cow dungs at me !
    I wanna see smoking guns !
    Such as the Clark testimony, the declassified murkkan embassy mails,
    the five star hotel that harbor Nepalese maoists head honcho...


    As i implied dont address me as dude or dudette or anything. Stick to the discussion.Cant do that?
     
    This is an adult site, dude !
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    >''Turns out that Delhi was itself training, harboring the Nepalese maoists ande ventually using them to topple the centuries old Nepalese monarchy !<''

    Please point out to me where in the link it said delhi was training nepal maoists to topple nepal monarchy?

    Also if that wikileaks thing is true, it must have started because of this:

    ''In 1950, the Chinese People's Liberation Army annexed Tibet and later the Chinese extended their influence by building a road in 1956–67[11] and placing border posts in Aksai Chin. ''

    They entered into aksai chin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    Please point out to me where in the link it said delhi was training nepal maoists to topple nepal monarchy?

    YOu havent been paying attention dude,

    Every Nepalese and his dog knows Maoists were harbored and trained in India !

    ‘“Who sheltered them? Who trained them? This is an open secret.

    A parliamentary delegation had gone there (New Delhi). They were shown a five star hotel and a room and told that this was here Pushpa Kamal [Nepalese maoists head honcho] had lived for eight years.”

    In a hotel just in front of the parliamentary building Girija Babu had met with Pushpa Kamal for the first time. The then Indian Defense Minister George Fernandes was also present there. To meet Pushpa Kamal for the second time, Girija Babu was put in an Indian Navy helicopter in New Delhi to go to an Agriculture Farm some 22 kilometers far.

    What more proof you want ?’

    http://www.telegraphnepal.com/headline/2015-01-08/nepal-maoist:-indian-trojan-horse-comrade-rohit-talks-to-media

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chinese-intelligence-training-and-funding-maoists-in-india/1/186191.html

    As i implied dont address me as dude or dudette or anything. Stick to the discussion.Cant do that?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @DB Cooper
    This is just ridiculous. Present day India is much bigger than it was before when India was created from the polity left behind after the British Raj left the subcontinent in 1947. Once the Indians were there own master they continue the good old tradition of the land grabbing expansionist British Raj without missing a beat. According to international law as the successor state of the British Raj India is entitled to the land under the jurisdiction of the British Raj but not anymore. But the land grabbing didn't stop when the British quit, it continue and become even more blatant. India is the only country post WWII that has invaded and grab land from every single of its neighbors.

    The British did not simply invade other states in India. The Dominion of India invaded over 600 independent territories after independence. Some were tiny but some were large and functional as separate countries. She n Britain was around, they didn’t need armies so we’re helpless.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Those territories were already 'indian' to begin with.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    >''Turns out that Delhi was itself training, harboring the Nepalese maoists ande ventually using them to topple the centuries old Nepalese monarchy !<''

    Please point out to me where in the link it said delhi was training nepal maoists to topple nepal monarchy?

    Also if that wikileaks thing is true, it must have started because of this:

    ''In 1950, the Chinese People's Liberation Army annexed Tibet and later the Chinese extended their influence by building a road in 1956–67[11] and placing border posts in Aksai Chin. ''

    They entered into aksai chin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    ”In 1950, the Chinese People’s Liberation Army annexed Tibet and later the Chinese extended their influence by building a road in 1956–67[11] and placing border posts in Aksai Chin. ”
    They entered into aksai chin.

    Tibet is part of China longer than the United States. Tibet has been recognized to be part of China by most countries in the world (including Britain, US…etc) long before Communist China even exist. That the issue of Tibet even exists is because the British Raj try to carve Tibet out of China during the heydays of colonialism. Hong Kong was not the only territory the British coveted. It is totally justified according to international law that any country has the rights to resist part of its territory from being carved out. The PLA entered into Tibet is totally legit.

    Aksai Chin has always been part of China. It was never part of British India.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    everything is part of china, even india is part of china!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    And dont automatically assume i am a ‘bhai’ or even a ‘behen’ or even ‘didi’ or from a religious point of view assume of me as a ‘hindu’ or ‘muslim’ or ‘christian’ or jain or sikh or parsee.

    I could be any one of the above. So dont typecast me into one of the above.

    Stick to the argument if you can and dont do name calling or address me as something. People like you (i dont mean chinese, i mean specifically people like you) i find repulsive. (Based on how you have been speaking to me from the beginning). You can win the argument without doing these, cant you?

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  • @Lin
    >> if india gives nukes to taiwan or japan <<

    First of all. Japan is the most tech advanced asian country and has no need for hindu help; Though it's not impossible, its highly unlikely even if Japan want to get nukes. Other than tech matters,it complicates thing.
    (look, my hindi bhai, I don't mean to hurt your pride; Bharat still has problem making good rifles:
    http://indianexpress.com/article/india/army-rejects-indigenously-built-rifles-for-second-year-in-a-row-4715758/ )
    Taiwan is not a country.It's a Chinese province. It's a fact recognized by India. It's a fact recognized by almost all the nations on earth(except a handful)
    Pakistan is an independent country. It's a fact recognized by India.
    India will not give nukes to Taiwan because of 3 reasons:
    1)India is not a technological advanced country and even if the TW separatist gov wants to get nukes, it has other channels. Look, technically getting a few nukes isn't exactly a big deal these days.
    2)India will not give nukes to Taiwan because the hindus dare not risk Chinese wrath.
    3)Its highly unlikely the TW separatist gov wants to get nukes because Taiwan geographically has no defence in depth. The Taiwan Strait is their prime line of defense,not nuke matters. The Taiwan 'armed forces' are well known for their morale problems.
    .......................................
    Actually a more sensible question would be 'What if india gives nukes to Vietnam ?'
    It's unlikely because:
    1)china will massively and justifiably supply nuke knowhow to Pakistan
    2)Vietnam is a narrow strip of land on the eastern coast of indo-china and has no defense in depth. A 10 megaton hydrogen bomb will effectively sever Vietnam into 2 halves.
    3)If the Viets acquire nukes entirely on their efforts. China might not protest much. Laos and Cambodia might ask for Chinese protection.
    I'm sure Vietnam has contemplated getting nukes, but so far it hasn't. I doubt tech nor money is the real resaons. Even though China and Vietnam have their quarrels and difference, I don't think the viets are stupid.

    So it wont be just an issue between india or taiwan/japan then if india gives nukes to them, then? Thanks! All that cr*p just to say this?

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  • @Anonymous
    let me ask you a question, if india gives nukes to taiwan or japan(it wont) but lets assume hypothetically for the sake of this discussion, that it gives them those....will you treat it just as an issue between india and those countries?

    >> if india gives nukes to taiwan or japan <<

    First of all. Japan is the most tech advanced asian country and has no need for hindu help; Though it's not impossible, its highly unlikely even if Japan want to get nukes. Other than tech matters,it complicates thing.
    (look, my hindi bhai, I don't mean to hurt your pride; Bharat still has problem making good rifles:
    http://indianexpress.com/article/india/army-rejects-indigenously-built-rifles-for-second-year-in-a-row-4715758/ )
    Taiwan is not a country.It's a Chinese province. It's a fact recognized by India. It's a fact recognized by almost all the nations on earth(except a handful)
    Pakistan is an independent country. It's a fact recognized by India.
    India will not give nukes to Taiwan because of 3 reasons:
    1)India is not a technological advanced country and even if the TW separatist gov wants to get nukes, it has other channels. Look, technically getting a few nukes isn't exactly a big deal these days.
    2)India will not give nukes to Taiwan because the hindus dare not risk Chinese wrath.
    3)Its highly unlikely the TW separatist gov wants to get nukes because Taiwan geographically has no defence in depth. The Taiwan Strait is their prime line of defense,not nuke matters. The Taiwan 'armed forces' are well known for their morale problems.
    …………………………………
    Actually a more sensible question would be 'What if india gives nukes to Vietnam ?'
    It's unlikely because:
    1)china will massively and justifiably supply nuke knowhow to Pakistan
    2)Vietnam is a narrow strip of land on the eastern coast of indo-china and has no defense in depth. A 10 megaton hydrogen bomb will effectively sever Vietnam into 2 halves.
    3)If the Viets acquire nukes entirely on their efforts. China might not protest much. Laos and Cambodia might ask for Chinese protection.
    I'm sure Vietnam has contemplated getting nukes, but so far it hasn't. I doubt tech nor money is the real resaons. Even though China and Vietnam have their quarrels and difference, I don’t think the viets are stupid.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    So it wont be just an issue between india or taiwan/japan then if india gives nukes to them, then? Thanks! All that cr*p just to say this?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @denk

    'Here are the events that actually happened.'
    [sic]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War
     
    Why are you still flogging a dead horse ,?

    This is insider info from
    ex Aussie diplomat Gregory Clark

    ' At the time I was a junior China desk officer in the Australian
    Department of External Affairs. One needed only to look at a map to
    discover that the hostilities had begun after India moved troops
    into the Thagla Ridge area, north of the official version of the
    McMahon Line, which India was claiming as its northernmost frontier.
    .
    In other words, India must have started the fighting. I made it my job to find out whether the British Foreign Office and the U.S. State Department agreed, which they did, reluctantly.[sic]



    Did you find a gem in that wiki which disprove Clark's testimony ?
    Otherwise its Case Closed !

    ----------------------
    1959 Tibet 'uprising'....



    Declassified US embassy correspondence shows that Delhi was up to its eyeballs in the 1959 'uprising', in cahoot with the CIA.
    After the Dalai clique fled to India, CIA/RAW recruited young Tibetans and trained them into a guerilla force to carry out sabotages in China.



    Excerpts from a United States Foreign Service Top Secret Memorandum of Conversation between the Tsepon Shakabpa, acting as the personal representative of the Dalai Lama, and Fraser Wilkins, the First Secretary of the US Embassy in New Delhi. The conversation took place on 24 May 1951.

    The United States is prepared to fulfil the Dalai Lama’s request for military assistance:

    We are prepared to send you light arms through India… We will also give consideration to supplying you with loans of money to keep up the resistance.”

    The conditions the US applies: The Dalai Lama leaves Tibet; the Dalai Lama issues a statement disavowing the agreement his delegates made with Communist China; the Dalai Lama organise resistance to the Chinese Communists.

    The Dalai Lama established a secret Tibetan unit within the Indian Army – the shadowy ‘Establishment 22’.


    The cable releases reveal that the Dalai Lama’s secret army received a steady stream of new recruits from the Tibetan Children’s Village Schools. As the cable says: ‘Membership in Establishment 22 was compulsory for Tibetan students graduating from Tibetan Children’s Village (TCV) schools until the late 1980s’.

    These schools were set up for the destitute children and orphans amongst the Tibetan refugee community with international aid donations.

    How ironic that in the lead up to receiving the Nobel peace prize in 1989, the Dalai Lama was forcing orphans under his care into military service in his secret army.

    “While at school at the Central School for Tibetans in Mussoorie, my classmates and I used to sing a song that went, “Chocho mangmi la madro, haapen bholo yoki rae”, which translates to “O brother don’t go to the army, they will make you wear those loose half-pants”. Although we sang this song in every grade, it was only years later that the true meaning of those words finally dawned on me. Each year as the seniors graduated, we would see trucks waiting at the school gate – Indian Army trucks, all set to cart many of the graduating students off to the barracks for training. At the time I was confused, and wondered why these new graduates were not simply going home.” Tashi Dhundup

    The CIA, together with it’s Indian equivalent the RAW, and the Tibetan Resistence fighters Chushi Gangdruk, formed ‘Establishment 22’ in 1962. There can be no doubt that it is ‘Establishment 22’ that the CIA are here referring to as the ‘paramilitary arm of the Tibetan Government in Exile’. Furthermore, although nominally part of the Indian army, history shows who really commands Establishment 22.

    https://followersofdorjeshugden.com/wikileaks/

    --------------------------

    '

    That maoists in india get weapons and material from chinese, that china was responsible for the partition of india, china was responsible for demonitisation, terror attacks in india, that china is responsible for keeping nepal borders open so that pak can send fake currency into india. Its not that we cant assume things about chinese too. '
     
    I knew all that,
    Been saying all along, the Indians are even nuttier than their murkkan soul mates !
    hhhhhh

    just to show you one example,
    The Indians blame their maoists movements on China/Nepal [sic],
    Turns out that Delhi was itself training, harboring the Nepalese maoists ande ventually using them to topple the centuries old Nepalese monarchy !

    Talk about ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    >”Turns out that Delhi was itself training, harboring the Nepalese maoists ande ventually using them to topple the centuries old Nepalese monarchy !<''

    Please point out to me where in the link it said delhi was training nepal maoists to topple nepal monarchy?

    Also if that wikileaks thing is true, it must have started because of this:

    ''In 1950, the Chinese People's Liberation Army annexed Tibet and later the Chinese extended their influence by building a road in 1956–67[11] and placing border posts in Aksai Chin. ''

    They entered into aksai chin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    Read More
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    ''In 1950, the Chinese People's Liberation Army annexed Tibet and later the Chinese extended their influence by building a road in 1956–67[11] and placing border posts in Aksai Chin. ''
    They entered into aksai chin.

    Tibet is part of China longer than the United States. Tibet has been recognized to be part of China by most countries in the world (including Britain, US...etc) long before Communist China even exist. That the issue of Tibet even exists is because the British Raj try to carve Tibet out of China during the heydays of colonialism. Hong Kong was not the only territory the British coveted. It is totally justified according to international law that any country has the rights to resist part of its territory from being carved out. The PLA entered into Tibet is totally legit.

    Aksai Chin has always been part of China. It was never part of British India.
    , @denk

    Please point out to me where in the link it said delhi was training nepal maoists to topple nepal monarchy?
     
    YOu havent been paying attention dude,

    Every Nepalese and his dog knows Maoists were harbored and trained in India !

    '“Who sheltered them? Who trained them? This is an open secret.

    A parliamentary delegation had gone there (New Delhi). They were shown a five star hotel and a room and told that this was here Pushpa Kamal [Nepalese maoists head honcho] had lived for eight years.”

    In a hotel just in front of the parliamentary building Girija Babu had met with Pushpa Kamal for the first time. The then Indian Defense Minister George Fernandes was also present there. To meet Pushpa Kamal for the second time, Girija Babu was put in an Indian Navy helicopter in New Delhi to go to an Agriculture Farm some 22 kilometers far.

    What more proof you want ?'

    http://www.telegraphnepal.com/headline/2015-01-08/nepal-maoist:-indian-trojan-horse-comrade-rohit-talks-to-media
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Lin
    "..Its like you want win the argument using my statements about the canada nuclear issue, but you are missing the big picture. The issue is between canada and india..."
    ....................
    Lets say Pakistan imported a power-generation reactor and then took the uranium out to make a bomb and test it..
    " but you are missing the big picture. The issue is between China and Pakistan.."

    let me ask you a question, if india gives nukes to taiwan or japan(it wont) but lets assume hypothetically for the sake of this discussion, that it gives them those….will you treat it just as an issue between india and those countries?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lin
    >> if india gives nukes to taiwan or japan <<

    First of all. Japan is the most tech advanced asian country and has no need for hindu help; Though it's not impossible, its highly unlikely even if Japan want to get nukes. Other than tech matters,it complicates thing.
    (look, my hindi bhai, I don't mean to hurt your pride; Bharat still has problem making good rifles:
    http://indianexpress.com/article/india/army-rejects-indigenously-built-rifles-for-second-year-in-a-row-4715758/ )
    Taiwan is not a country.It's a Chinese province. It's a fact recognized by India. It's a fact recognized by almost all the nations on earth(except a handful)
    Pakistan is an independent country. It's a fact recognized by India.
    India will not give nukes to Taiwan because of 3 reasons:
    1)India is not a technological advanced country and even if the TW separatist gov wants to get nukes, it has other channels. Look, technically getting a few nukes isn't exactly a big deal these days.
    2)India will not give nukes to Taiwan because the hindus dare not risk Chinese wrath.
    3)Its highly unlikely the TW separatist gov wants to get nukes because Taiwan geographically has no defence in depth. The Taiwan Strait is their prime line of defense,not nuke matters. The Taiwan 'armed forces' are well known for their morale problems.
    .......................................
    Actually a more sensible question would be 'What if india gives nukes to Vietnam ?'
    It's unlikely because:
    1)china will massively and justifiably supply nuke knowhow to Pakistan
    2)Vietnam is a narrow strip of land on the eastern coast of indo-china and has no defense in depth. A 10 megaton hydrogen bomb will effectively sever Vietnam into 2 halves.
    3)If the Viets acquire nukes entirely on their efforts. China might not protest much. Laos and Cambodia might ask for Chinese protection.
    I'm sure Vietnam has contemplated getting nukes, but so far it hasn't. I doubt tech nor money is the real resaons. Even though China and Vietnam have their quarrels and difference, I don't think the viets are stupid.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    >''The Indian MSM is always abuzz with ‘China threat’, exactly like their murkkan soul mates !''''
    What does western media say about india?
    Western MSM are also swarmed by Indians whenever a China thread is on, its like their ‘home ground’ see, the likes of WSJ/WAPO/GUARDIAN etc are all anti Chinese. propaganda rags !''

    When did it all began. And also dont chinese swarm those sites and write anti india stuff. I dont know i am asking you.

    ''These days, Even English forums in China are taken over by this Indian cyber army ,,,,cuz the locals hardly read English !''STill, they come back , mostly as anons but I suspect some of the ‘western’ China baiters here are actually Indian trolls !''

    Link me ot those chinese sites, i wont comment i just want to see. Also why do you think its walys indians who are using western names when some westerns too think they have issues about chinese. They are not capable of writing comments about chinese?. But hey believe what you want to believe.

    How did it all started anyway ?
    During the chini china bai bai B.S.
    India stabbed China in the back with the 1959 CIA/RAW engineered Tibet riots,
    followed up with the 1962 border provocation. [1]<''

    So this is the reason for all that hatred, you think india was involved in the tibetan uprising? Oh my god. Do you know that for a fact. Reading some random blog and believing it as true? Or is this i said china gave nukes to pak. If its because of the second reason then i have nothing to say. But if its for the first reason. A lot of people have a vested interest in creating differences between indians and chinese or to drive traffic to their blog. But if you still want to assume india was responsible for it, do it. But then you have to let indians assume a lot of things about chinese too. That maoists in india get weapons and material from chinese, that china was responsible for the partition of india, china was responsible for demonitisation, terror attacks in india, that china is responsible for keeping nepal borders open so that pak can send fake currency into india. Its not that we cant assume things about chinese too. But if we keep on assuming relations between indians and chinese will never improve.

    Also regarding the 1962 war

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    '

    ‘Here are the events that actually happened.’
    [sic]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    Why are you still flogging a dead horse ,?

    This is insider info from
    ex Aussie diplomat Gregory Clark

    ‘ At the time I was a junior China desk officer in the Australian
    Department of External Affairs. One needed only to look at a map to
    discover that the hostilities had begun after India moved troops
    into the Thagla Ridge area, north of the official version of the
    McMahon Line, which India was claiming as its northernmost frontier.
    .
    In other words, India must have started the fighting. I made it my job to find out whether the British Foreign Office and the U.S. State Department agreed, which they did, reluctantly.[sic]

    Did you find a gem in that wiki which disprove Clark’s testimony ?
    Otherwise its Case Closed !

    ———————-
    1959 Tibet ‘uprising’….

    Declassified US embassy correspondence shows that Delhi was up to its eyeballs in the 1959 ‘uprising’, in cahoot with the CIA.
    After the Dalai clique fled to India, CIA/RAW recruited young Tibetans and trained them into a guerilla force to carry out sabotages in China.

    Excerpts from a United States Foreign Service Top Secret Memorandum of Conversation between the Tsepon Shakabpa, acting as the personal representative of the Dalai Lama, and Fraser Wilkins, the First Secretary of the US Embassy in New Delhi. The conversation took place on 24 May 1951.

    The United States is prepared to fulfil the Dalai Lama’s request for military assistance:

    We are prepared to send you light arms through India… We will also give consideration to supplying you with loans of money to keep up the resistance.”

    The conditions the US applies: The Dalai Lama leaves Tibet; the Dalai Lama issues a statement disavowing the agreement his delegates made with Communist China; the Dalai Lama organise resistance to the Chinese Communists.

    The Dalai Lama established a secret Tibetan unit within the Indian Army – the shadowy ‘Establishment 22’.

    The cable releases reveal that the Dalai Lama’s secret army received a steady stream of new recruits from the Tibetan Children’s Village Schools. As the cable says: ‘Membership in Establishment 22 was compulsory for Tibetan students graduating from Tibetan Children’s Village (TCV) schools until the late 1980s’.

    These schools were set up for the destitute children and orphans amongst the Tibetan refugee community with international aid donations.

    How ironic that in the lead up to receiving the Nobel peace prize in 1989, the Dalai Lama was forcing orphans under his care into military service in his secret army.

    “While at school at the Central School for Tibetans in Mussoorie, my classmates and I used to sing a song that went, “Chocho mangmi la madro, haapen bholo yoki rae”, which translates to “O brother don’t go to the army, they will make you wear those loose half-pants”. Although we sang this song in every grade, it was only years later that the true meaning of those words finally dawned on me. Each year as the seniors graduated, we would see trucks waiting at the school gate – Indian Army trucks, all set to cart many of the graduating students off to the barracks for training. At the time I was confused, and wondered why these new graduates were not simply going home.” Tashi Dhundup

    The CIA, together with it’s Indian equivalent the RAW, and the Tibetan Resistence fighters Chushi Gangdruk, formed ‘Establishment 22’ in 1962. There can be no doubt that it is ‘Establishment 22’ that the CIA are here referring to as the ‘paramilitary arm of the Tibetan Government in Exile’. Furthermore, although nominally part of the Indian army, history shows who really commands Establishment 22.

    https://followersofdorjeshugden.com/wikileaks/

    ————————–

    That maoists in india get weapons and material from chinese, that china was responsible for the partition of india, china was responsible for demonitisation, terror attacks in india, that china is responsible for keeping nepal borders open so that pak can send fake currency into india. Its not that we cant assume things about chinese too. ‘

    I knew all that,
    Been saying all along, the Indians are even nuttier than their murkkan soul mates !
    hhhhhh

    just to show you one example,
    The Indians blame their maoists movements on China/Nepal [sic],
    Turns out that Delhi was itself training, harboring the Nepalese maoists ande ventually using them to topple the centuries old Nepalese monarchy !

    Talk about ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    >''Turns out that Delhi was itself training, harboring the Nepalese maoists ande ventually using them to topple the centuries old Nepalese monarchy !<''

    Please point out to me where in the link it said delhi was training nepal maoists to topple nepal monarchy?

    Also if that wikileaks thing is true, it must have started because of this:

    ''In 1950, the Chinese People's Liberation Army annexed Tibet and later the Chinese extended their influence by building a road in 1956–67[11] and placing border posts in Aksai Chin. ''

    They entered into aksai chin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    Its like you want win the argument using my statements about the canada nuclear issue, but you are missing the big picture. The issue is between canada and india.

    “..Its like you want win the argument using my statements about the canada nuclear issue, but you are missing the big picture. The issue is between canada and india…”
    ………………..
    Lets say Pakistan imported a power-generation reactor and then took the uranium out to make a bomb and test it..
    ” but you are missing the big picture. The issue is between China and Pakistan..”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    let me ask you a question, if india gives nukes to taiwan or japan(it wont) but lets assume hypothetically for the sake of this discussion, that it gives them those....will you treat it just as an issue between india and those countries?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Its like you want win the argument using my statements about the canada nuclear issue, but you are missing the big picture. The issue is between canada and india.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lin
    "..Its like you want win the argument using my statements about the canada nuclear issue, but you are missing the big picture. The issue is between canada and india..."
    ....................
    Lets say Pakistan imported a power-generation reactor and then took the uranium out to make a bomb and test it..
    " but you are missing the big picture. The issue is between China and Pakistan.."
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin
    Now you backtrack from "Yes we took nukes from canada,.." to " i implied india may have taken uranium from Canada", haha..
    Look I listed source from indian nationalist military site on the Henderson Brooke report and how nervous the hindus are regarding that leak. And the Henderson Brooke report can be downloaded for all to see. If you insist on your propaganda, great. I hope I didn't add to your trauma.

    Because i am not hundred percent sure they have taken. But even if they took it….it is between india and canada. It doesnt concern china. Why are you so hung up with india taking nukes from canada? China should have nukes but india shouldnt? China should be able to be friends with anybody they want, but india shouldnt even try be friendly with U.S or anybody? What the F is this? And what ‘propaganda’ am i doing? I said i will accept the evidence, what does it mean!!!!!!!!!!?????????????? From the beginning you were more interested in painting me and my comments as something than actually trying to disprove them.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    >''The Indian MSM is always abuzz with ‘China threat’, exactly like their murkkan soul mates !''''
    What does western media say about india?
    Western MSM are also swarmed by Indians whenever a China thread is on, its like their ‘home ground’ see, the likes of WSJ/WAPO/GUARDIAN etc are all anti Chinese. propaganda rags !''

    When did it all began. And also dont chinese swarm those sites and write anti india stuff. I dont know i am asking you.

    ''These days, Even English forums in China are taken over by this Indian cyber army ,,,,cuz the locals hardly read English !''STill, they come back , mostly as anons but I suspect some of the ‘western’ China baiters here are actually Indian trolls !''

    Link me ot those chinese sites, i wont comment i just want to see. Also why do you think its walys indians who are using western names when some westerns too think they have issues about chinese. They are not capable of writing comments about chinese?. But hey believe what you want to believe.

    How did it all started anyway ?
    During the chini china bai bai B.S.
    India stabbed China in the back with the 1959 CIA/RAW engineered Tibet riots,
    followed up with the 1962 border provocation. [1]<''

    So this is the reason for all that hatred, you think india was involved in the tibetan uprising? Oh my god. Do you know that for a fact. Reading some random blog and believing it as true? Or is this i said china gave nukes to pak. If its because of the second reason then i have nothing to say. But if its for the first reason. A lot of people have a vested interest in creating differences between indians and chinese or to drive traffic to their blog. But if you still want to assume india was responsible for it, do it. But then you have to let indians assume a lot of things about chinese too. That maoists in india get weapons and material from chinese, that china was responsible for the partition of india, china was responsible for demonitisation, terror attacks in india, that china is responsible for keeping nepal borders open so that pak can send fake currency into india. Its not that we cant assume things about chinese too. But if we keep on assuming relations between indians and chinese will never improve.

    Also regarding the 1962 war

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    '

    You should know that China is not the only country India invaded. India has invaded and grabbed land from every single of its neighbors, China included. South Tibet, including Tawang was invaded and annexed by India in 1951, four years after the British left the subcontinent and India was created. You can’t blame it on the British on this one. South Tibet is still occupied by India to this day. It is one of the two United Nation recognized disputed territories of India. The other one being Kashmir.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • When I go to a store, and see Made in China the thought is, “oh, another Chinese crap!”

    If it’s a branded product, it was made and QC’d to a spec provided to the mfr by the Brand. Blame them. VWs, BMWs, Toyotas, Samsungs etc are exactly as “crappy” out of a Chinese factory as they are out of an German, American or Japanese factory.
    It’s when price drives the procurement process that quality necessarily takes a back seat. That, to be sure, happens a lot with unbranded, or off-branded products. “You get what you pay for” holds most, but not all of the time.

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  • @Anonymous
    I only repeated it because you implied i was wrong about it. Thats why i asked it. Also i implied india may have taken uranium from canada. Also regarding book report i said that if you provide me with evidence about it i will accept it. When you quoted that particular comment of mine in your reply, you left this part out. I thought it was deliberate, but it looks like you didnt read it.

    Now you backtrack from “Yes we took nukes from canada,..” to ” i implied india may have taken uranium from Canada”, haha..
    Look I listed source from indian nationalist military site on the Henderson Brooke report and how nervous the hindus are regarding that leak. And the Henderson Brooke report can be downloaded for all to see. If you insist on your propaganda, great. I hope I didn’t add to your trauma.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Because i am not hundred percent sure they have taken. But even if they took it....it is between india and canada. It doesnt concern china. Why are you so hung up with india taking nukes from canada? China should have nukes but india shouldnt? China should be able to be friends with anybody they want, but india shouldnt even try be friendly with U.S or anybody? What the F is this? And what 'propaganda' am i doing? I said i will accept the evidence, what does it mean!!!!!!!!!!?????????????? From the beginning you were more interested in painting me and my comments as something than actually trying to disprove them.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Name ONE thing, just one, that you’d prefer to be made in China rather than in any other industrialized nation. Not even Chinese food…
    When I go to a store, and see Made in China the thought is, “oh, another Chinese crap!” Chinese is still a synonym for shoddy quality, and often dangerously unsafe or cynically contrived widgets designed to be cheap and last for just a few days. How do they manage to sell a watch on line for $1.99 including shipping? It boggles the mind–you can’t mail a letter to China for that! It’s not a good thing, the waste of resources that goes with this kind of shoddy merchandise alone should give us a pause in the praise. Haven’t been to China and, OK, they are building infrastructure at a break neck pace, let’s see if their bridges and buildings last longer than the $1.99 watch.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin
    "...”Given your record of accusing china “encircling india” and “giving Pak nukes”, haha, let me put it this way, its like Mr. Modi said he had no complication in the 2002 anti-muslim riots in Gujurat.”

    I dont give a sh*t about modi. But isnt china doing the above?..."

    Look, repeating the accusation doesn't make the accusation valid.

    I can see Bharat was beaten in military, economics, tech... arenas but your attempt to play victim has failed.
    (And I've quoted valid facts like the Henderson Brooke report and uranium from candu reactor )

    I only repeated it because you implied i was wrong about it. Thats why i asked it. Also i implied india may have taken uranium from canada. Also regarding book report i said that if you provide me with evidence about it i will accept it. When you quoted that particular comment of mine in your reply, you left this part out. I thought it was deliberate, but it looks like you didnt read it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lin
    Now you backtrack from "Yes we took nukes from canada,.." to " i implied india may have taken uranium from Canada", haha..
    Look I listed source from indian nationalist military site on the Henderson Brooke report and how nervous the hindus are regarding that leak. And the Henderson Brooke report can be downloaded for all to see. If you insist on your propaganda, great. I hope I didn't add to your trauma.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    ''Given your record of accusing china “encircling india” and “giving Pak nukes”, haha, let me put it this way, its like Mr. Modi said he had no complication in the 2002 anti-muslim riots in Gujurat.''

    I dont give a sh*t about modi. But isnt china doing the above?

    “…”Given your record of accusing china “encircling india” and “giving Pak nukes”, haha, let me put it this way, its like Mr. Modi said he had no complication in the 2002 anti-muslim riots in Gujurat.”

    I dont give a sh*t about modi. But isnt china doing the above?…”

    Look, repeating the accusation doesn’t make the accusation valid.

    I can see Bharat was beaten in military, economics, tech… arenas but your attempt to play victim has failed.
    (And I’ve quoted valid facts like the Henderson Brooke report and uranium from candu reactor )

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I only repeated it because you implied i was wrong about it. Thats why i asked it. Also i implied india may have taken uranium from canada. Also regarding book report i said that if you provide me with evidence about it i will accept it. When you quoted that particular comment of mine in your reply, you left this part out. I thought it was deliberate, but it looks like you didnt read it.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Astuteobservor II
    I have never asked you to do the leg work, simply asked if you have the figures. you then asked me to "comb through the US Customs import/export data" you have to be out of your mind. the pompous guy making some outlandish claims is asking his opponent to prove his "claim" wrong :))) the onus is on you to prove you are right. you made that claim. provide the numbers. oh noes, you don't have the numbers?

    annoyed? what, someone who doesn't take ur bullshit, excuse me, "claim" at face value? annoyed? good. maybe that will stop you from making similar claims in the future.

    what recipe? using completely unrelated data to prove your point? please.

    See #347. No idea why it didn’t post as a proper reply.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    >''The Indian MSM is always abuzz with ‘China threat’, exactly like their murkkan soul mates !''''
    What does western media say about india?
    Western MSM are also swarmed by Indians whenever a China thread is on, its like their ‘home ground’ see, the likes of WSJ/WAPO/GUARDIAN etc are all anti Chinese. propaganda rags !''

    When did it all began. And also dont chinese swarm those sites and write anti india stuff. I dont know i am asking you.

    ''These days, Even English forums in China are taken over by this Indian cyber army ,,,,cuz the locals hardly read English !''STill, they come back , mostly as anons but I suspect some of the ‘western’ China baiters here are actually Indian trolls !''

    Link me ot those chinese sites, i wont comment i just want to see. Also why do you think its walys indians who are using western names when some westerns too think they have issues about chinese. They are not capable of writing comments about chinese?. But hey believe what you want to believe.

    How did it all started anyway ?
    During the chini china bai bai B.S.
    India stabbed China in the back with the 1959 CIA/RAW engineered Tibet riots,
    followed up with the 1962 border provocation. [1]<''

    So this is the reason for all that hatred, you think india was involved in the tibetan uprising? Oh my god. Do you know that for a fact. Reading some random blog and believing it as true? Or is this i said china gave nukes to pak. If its because of the second reason then i have nothing to say. But if its for the first reason. A lot of people have a vested interest in creating differences between indians and chinese or to drive traffic to their blog. But if you still want to assume india was responsible for it, do it. But then you have to let indians assume a lot of things about chinese too. That maoists in india get weapons and material from chinese, that china was responsible for the partition of india, china was responsible for demonitisation, terror attacks in india, that china is responsible for keeping nepal borders open so that pak can send fake currency into india. Its not that we cant assume things about chinese too. But if we keep on assuming relations between indians and chinese will never improve.

    Also regarding the 1962 war

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    '

    In my first part of my comment i meant to say what does chinese media say about india.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @denk
    ---------------------------

    'You dont see indians talk about what they think china did as much as chinese talk about what they think india did. Why? Its almost always chinese talking sh*t about india than the other way round. Most of the time its chinese who start it. Why?'
     
    How old are you my friend ?

    The Indian MSM is always abuzz with 'China threat', exactly like their murkkan soul mates !
    Western MSM are also swarmed by Indians whenever a China thread is on, its like their 'home ground' see, the likes of WSJ/WAPO/GUARDIAN etc are all anti Chinese. propaganda rags !
    These days, Even English forums in China are taken over by this Indian cyber army ,,,,cuz the locals hardly read English !

    Alternate media like UNZ used to be the same until I cleansed it up, no kidding !
    What you see now is the aftermath of the clean up !
    STill, they come back , mostly as anons but I suspect some of the 'western' China baiters here are actually Indian trolls !

    'And china also has seen it. Dont you think we dont know it? And india is only going towards US. because of china'
     
    How did it all started anyway ?
    During the chini china bai bai B.S.
    India stabbed China in the back with the 1959 CIA/RAW engineered Tibet riots,
    followed up with the 1962 border provocation. [1]

    The Indians never forgave China for that self inflicted humiliation, they declared their undying loyalty to the murkkan cause from then on and never look back since !

    another provocation at the Sikkim border, 1987

    2008 CIA/RAW Tibet riots,

    2013, 'Asia pivot'

    2017, Donglang provocation.

    'Wrong. India actually lost land.'
     
    [sic ]
    Read the comment by 'currybeef' here,
    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017/07/06/sikkim-stand-off-china-india-collide-himalayas/
    he gave a good account of Indian expansionism, still not complete tho.

    'Chinese nuke to Pak'
     
    As Lin says, *where's the proof , my dear' ?

    See, unlike Indians and their murkkan soulmates who follow the British edict that .
    'when you lie, lie big and stick to it'

    I actually back up what I claim...

    [1]
    This from the horse mouth, insider info....

    Gregory Clark, ex Aussie diplomat
    ' "Chinese aggression," screamed the headlines. It took more than 10 years, and the book "India's China War," by the former London Times correspondent in New Delhi, Neville Maxwell, for the world to discover that in fact India had attacked China rather than vice versa.
    .
    At the time I was a junior China desk officer in the Australian
    Department of External Affairs. One needed only to look at a map to discover that the hostilities had begun after India moved troops into the Thagla Ridge area, north of the official version of the McMahon Line, which India was claiming as its northernmost frontier.
    .
    In other words, India must have started the fighting.

    .
    All this is relevant to the India-Pakistan confrontation today.
    China's 1962 border war with India followed the 1959 Tibetan uprising (in which we now find that India and the CIA were involved).

    QED

    >”The Indian MSM is always abuzz with ‘China threat’, exactly like their murkkan soul mates !””
    What does western media say about india?
    Western MSM are also swarmed by Indians whenever a China thread is on, its like their ‘home ground’ see, the likes of WSJ/WAPO/GUARDIAN etc are all anti Chinese. propaganda rags !”

    When did it all began. And also dont chinese swarm those sites and write anti india stuff. I dont know i am asking you.

    ”These days, Even English forums in China are taken over by this Indian cyber army ,,,,cuz the locals hardly read English !”STill, they come back , mostly as anons but I suspect some of the ‘western’ China baiters here are actually Indian trolls !”

    Link me ot those chinese sites, i wont comment i just want to see. Also why do you think its walys indians who are using western names when some westerns too think they have issues about chinese. They are not capable of writing comments about chinese?. But hey believe what you want to believe.

    How did it all started anyway ?
    During the chini china bai bai B.S.
    India stabbed China in the back with the 1959 CIA/RAW engineered Tibet riots,
    followed up with the 1962 border provocation. [1]<''

    So this is the reason for all that hatred, you think india was involved in the tibetan uprising? Oh my god. Do you know that for a fact. Reading some random blog and believing it as true? Or is this i said china gave nukes to pak. If its because of the second reason then i have nothing to say. But if its for the first reason. A lot of people have a vested interest in creating differences between indians and chinese or to drive traffic to their blog. But if you still want to assume india was responsible for it, do it. But then you have to let indians assume a lot of things about chinese too. That maoists in india get weapons and material from chinese, that china was responsible for the partition of india, china was responsible for demonitisation, terror attacks in india, that china is responsible for keeping nepal borders open so that pak can send fake currency into india. Its not that we cant assume things about chinese too. But if we keep on assuming relations between indians and chinese will never improve.

    Also regarding the 1962 war

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    '

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    In my first part of my comment i meant to say what does chinese media say about india.
    , @DB Cooper
    You should know that China is not the only country India invaded. India has invaded and grabbed land from every single of its neighbors, China included. South Tibet, including Tawang was invaded and annexed by India in 1951, four years after the British left the subcontinent and India was created. You can't blame it on the British on this one. South Tibet is still occupied by India to this day. It is one of the two United Nation recognized disputed territories of India. The other one being Kashmir.
    , @denk

    'Here are the events that actually happened.'
    [sic]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War
     
    Why are you still flogging a dead horse ,?

    This is insider info from
    ex Aussie diplomat Gregory Clark

    ' At the time I was a junior China desk officer in the Australian
    Department of External Affairs. One needed only to look at a map to
    discover that the hostilities had begun after India moved troops
    into the Thagla Ridge area, north of the official version of the
    McMahon Line, which India was claiming as its northernmost frontier.
    .
    In other words, India must have started the fighting. I made it my job to find out whether the British Foreign Office and the U.S. State Department agreed, which they did, reluctantly.[sic]



    Did you find a gem in that wiki which disprove Clark's testimony ?
    Otherwise its Case Closed !

    ----------------------
    1959 Tibet 'uprising'....



    Declassified US embassy correspondence shows that Delhi was up to its eyeballs in the 1959 'uprising', in cahoot with the CIA.
    After the Dalai clique fled to India, CIA/RAW recruited young Tibetans and trained them into a guerilla force to carry out sabotages in China.



    Excerpts from a United States Foreign Service Top Secret Memorandum of Conversation between the Tsepon Shakabpa, acting as the personal representative of the Dalai Lama, and Fraser Wilkins, the First Secretary of the US Embassy in New Delhi. The conversation took place on 24 May 1951.

    The United States is prepared to fulfil the Dalai Lama’s request for military assistance:

    We are prepared to send you light arms through India… We will also give consideration to supplying you with loans of money to keep up the resistance.”

    The conditions the US applies: The Dalai Lama leaves Tibet; the Dalai Lama issues a statement disavowing the agreement his delegates made with Communist China; the Dalai Lama organise resistance to the Chinese Communists.

    The Dalai Lama established a secret Tibetan unit within the Indian Army – the shadowy ‘Establishment 22’.


    The cable releases reveal that the Dalai Lama’s secret army received a steady stream of new recruits from the Tibetan Children’s Village Schools. As the cable says: ‘Membership in Establishment 22 was compulsory for Tibetan students graduating from Tibetan Children’s Village (TCV) schools until the late 1980s’.

    These schools were set up for the destitute children and orphans amongst the Tibetan refugee community with international aid donations.

    How ironic that in the lead up to receiving the Nobel peace prize in 1989, the Dalai Lama was forcing orphans under his care into military service in his secret army.

    “While at school at the Central School for Tibetans in Mussoorie, my classmates and I used to sing a song that went, “Chocho mangmi la madro, haapen bholo yoki rae”, which translates to “O brother don’t go to the army, they will make you wear those loose half-pants”. Although we sang this song in every grade, it was only years later that the true meaning of those words finally dawned on me. Each year as the seniors graduated, we would see trucks waiting at the school gate – Indian Army trucks, all set to cart many of the graduating students off to the barracks for training. At the time I was confused, and wondered why these new graduates were not simply going home.” Tashi Dhundup

    The CIA, together with it’s Indian equivalent the RAW, and the Tibetan Resistence fighters Chushi Gangdruk, formed ‘Establishment 22’ in 1962. There can be no doubt that it is ‘Establishment 22’ that the CIA are here referring to as the ‘paramilitary arm of the Tibetan Government in Exile’. Furthermore, although nominally part of the Indian army, history shows who really commands Establishment 22.

    https://followersofdorjeshugden.com/wikileaks/

    --------------------------

    '

    That maoists in india get weapons and material from chinese, that china was responsible for the partition of india, china was responsible for demonitisation, terror attacks in india, that china is responsible for keeping nepal borders open so that pak can send fake currency into india. Its not that we cant assume things about chinese too. '
     
    I knew all that,
    Been saying all along, the Indians are even nuttier than their murkkan soul mates !
    hhhhhh

    just to show you one example,
    The Indians blame their maoists movements on China/Nepal [sic],
    Turns out that Delhi was itself training, harboring the Nepalese maoists ande ventually using them to topple the centuries old Nepalese monarchy !

    Talk about ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY !
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @denk
    ---------------------------

    'You dont see indians talk about what they think china did as much as chinese talk about what they think india did. Why? Its almost always chinese talking sh*t about india than the other way round. Most of the time its chinese who start it. Why?'
     
    How old are you my friend ?

    The Indian MSM is always abuzz with 'China threat', exactly like their murkkan soul mates !
    Western MSM are also swarmed by Indians whenever a China thread is on, its like their 'home ground' see, the likes of WSJ/WAPO/GUARDIAN etc are all anti Chinese. propaganda rags !
    These days, Even English forums in China are taken over by this Indian cyber army ,,,,cuz the locals hardly read English !

    Alternate media like UNZ used to be the same until I cleansed it up, no kidding !
    What you see now is the aftermath of the clean up !
    STill, they come back , mostly as anons but I suspect some of the 'western' China baiters here are actually Indian trolls !

    'And china also has seen it. Dont you think we dont know it? And india is only going towards US. because of china'
     
    How did it all started anyway ?
    During the chini china bai bai B.S.
    India stabbed China in the back with the 1959 CIA/RAW engineered Tibet riots,
    followed up with the 1962 border provocation. [1]

    The Indians never forgave China for that self inflicted humiliation, they declared their undying loyalty to the murkkan cause from then on and never look back since !

    another provocation at the Sikkim border, 1987

    2008 CIA/RAW Tibet riots,

    2013, 'Asia pivot'

    2017, Donglang provocation.

    'Wrong. India actually lost land.'
     
    [sic ]
    Read the comment by 'currybeef' here,
    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017/07/06/sikkim-stand-off-china-india-collide-himalayas/
    he gave a good account of Indian expansionism, still not complete tho.

    'Chinese nuke to Pak'
     
    As Lin says, *where's the proof , my dear' ?

    See, unlike Indians and their murkkan soulmates who follow the British edict that .
    'when you lie, lie big and stick to it'

    I actually back up what I claim...

    [1]
    This from the horse mouth, insider info....

    Gregory Clark, ex Aussie diplomat
    ' "Chinese aggression," screamed the headlines. It took more than 10 years, and the book "India's China War," by the former London Times correspondent in New Delhi, Neville Maxwell, for the world to discover that in fact India had attacked China rather than vice versa.
    .
    At the time I was a junior China desk officer in the Australian
    Department of External Affairs. One needed only to look at a map to discover that the hostilities had begun after India moved troops into the Thagla Ridge area, north of the official version of the McMahon Line, which India was claiming as its northernmost frontier.
    .
    In other words, India must have started the fighting.

    .
    All this is relevant to the India-Pakistan confrontation today.
    China's 1962 border war with India followed the 1959 Tibetan uprising (in which we now find that India and the CIA were involved).

    QED

    >”The Indian MSM is always abuzz with ‘China threat’, exactly like their murkkan soul mates !”<”Western MSM are also swarmed by Indians whenever a China thread is on, its like their ‘home ground’ see, the likes of WSJ/WAPO/GUARDIAN etc are all anti Chinese. propaganda rags !<”These days, Even English forums in China are taken over by this Indian cyber army ,,,,cuz the locals hardly read English !”STill, they come back , mostly as anons but I suspect some of the ‘western’ China baiters here are actually Indian trolls !”How did it all started anyway ?
    During the chini china bai bai B.S.
    India stabbed China in the back with the 1959 CIA/RAW engineered Tibet riots,
    followed up with the 1962 border provocation. [1]<''

    Oh so this the reason for all that hate? Because you think india played a part in the 59 tibet riots? Lot of people have a vested interest in creating differences between china and india.

    Here are the events that actually happened.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Your original claim, that US manufacturing activity (citing the Fed’s RMO) is both rising and becoming more “efficient” (vs a still unspecified denominator) is the contentious claim (#232) that started this discussion. Having learned that you totally misunderstood the RMO you were citing (“woah, this is new to me”), and having been shown that your misunderstanding actually undercut your claim, you shifted the goalposts.

    Largely by implication, you now appear to be claiming that that your original claim stands, or at least isn’t proven false unless I provide data on trade in “components” showing the opposite. The latter, of course, doesn’t exist as a tracked goods category under any Industrial Code System I’m familiar with, and is prima facie virtually untrackable in any case.

    OTOH, my only claim is that there is nothing indicating that US manufacturing is rising, or becoming significantly more efficient, and that the “indicators” I mentioned (employment, energy use, raw material inputs, etc) point to collapsing US manufacturing activity. IOW, the case that manufacturing is falling has been made as well as it can be in a complex environment, and no contrary indicators have surfaced to cast doubt on that conclusion.
    Not definitive, but that’s normally as good as it gets in quantizing wide economic activity.

    As you mentioned that you hadn’t been able to find data on trade in “components”, I offered the MIT link which does some of the work of extrapolating “components” from the import/export data in the mistaken belief you’d want to pursue it. It turns out that you don’t.
    As it sits, having made an unsubstantiated claim, against all the currently available evidence indicating the opposite, you think the onus is on me to provide the data that proves it conclusively false. A novel position. I thinks your original claim’s actual status remains “specious” and that’s the end of it.

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  • @Erebus
    You're becoming annoying.

    I would continue to quote this as you continue to ignore it :)
     
    I didn't. You just didn't notice that I gave you the recipe, some helpful links (esp. the MIT link), and even did some quick back-of-napkin calcs to start you on the path to answering the question you're obsessing over. If you're hoping I'll do the rest of the legwork for you, you'll be disappointed.

    People with "zero back ground in mfg" need to educate themselves if they want answers to questions about manufacturing that aren't available nicely packaged and delivered to their computer screen for the asking. You need it answered, so get the answer. You may have to build a spreadsheet, but if you have the necessary "background" for that, it shouldn't be more than a few day's work.

    In answer to your snark, I'll also not try to convince you that your judgement of "irrelevancy" is a product of same ignorance you applied to the calculation of Real Manufacturing Output. That you now apply it to how/what things get made & traded across international borders, with almost the same level of pompous certainty, is a bridge too far for me. The legwork, should you choose to do it, will teach you that as well and may eventually show you why my points were relevant after all.

    I have never asked you to do the leg work, simply asked if you have the figures. you then asked me to “comb through the US Customs import/export data” you have to be out of your mind. the pompous guy making some outlandish claims is asking his opponent to prove his “claim” wrong :))) the onus is on you to prove you are right. you made that claim. provide the numbers. oh noes, you don’t have the numbers?

    annoyed? what, someone who doesn’t take ur bullshit, excuse me, “claim” at face value? annoyed? good. maybe that will stop you from making similar claims in the future.

    what recipe? using completely unrelated data to prove your point? please.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Erebus
    See #347. No idea why it didn't post as a proper reply.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Astuteobservor II
    those manufactured goods would already be counted towards the chinese total mfg. again, it has nothing to do with our discussion as it it already counted towards the chinese total mfg output.

    (just talking points, no real numbers)
    us produces inputs(A) for products like iphone being made in china, us also takes in inputs(B) from china for products like your washing machine. if the total $$$ value of A is greater than B, that is a net positive. if lower, net negative. if negative, then you would be right, if positive, the feds numbers would be right. how right or wrong depends on numbers for both A and B.
     
    I would continue to quote this as you continue to ignore it :)

    China imports only those manufactured goods it can’t make – like Boeings & high end chipsets – or can’t make well – like Caterpillars and some chemicals (if we’re talking about the US). The US, meanwhile imports a vast array of manufactured goods from China, based not on any in/ability to make it, but based on price and the fact that there’s no obvious penalty for doing so.
     
    what is wrong with the chinese importing stuff they can't make? isn't it obvious? as everything they can make is going to be cheaper than importing from the usa. isn't it obvious? that means it is also importing on price. importing what it needs and can't make is so obvious it doesn't even need to be mentioned. you can't spin this, you can try, but you can't.

    you seem to like to dwell on stuff that is completely unrelated to the point.

    You’re becoming annoying.

    I would continue to quote this as you continue to ignore it :)

    I didn’t. You just didn’t notice that I gave you the recipe, some helpful links (esp. the MIT link), and even did some quick back-of-napkin calcs to start you on the path to answering the question you’re obsessing over. If you’re hoping I’ll do the rest of the legwork for you, you’ll be disappointed.

    People with “zero back ground in mfg” need to educate themselves if they want answers to questions about manufacturing that aren’t available nicely packaged and delivered to their computer screen for the asking. You need it answered, so get the answer. You may have to build a spreadsheet, but if you have the necessary “background” for that, it shouldn’t be more than a few day’s work.

    In answer to your snark, I’ll also not try to convince you that your judgement of “irrelevancy” is a product of same ignorance you applied to the calculation of Real Manufacturing Output. That you now apply it to how/what things get made & traded across international borders, with almost the same level of pompous certainty, is a bridge too far for me. The legwork, should you choose to do it, will teach you that as well and may eventually show you why my points were relevant after all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    I have never asked you to do the leg work, simply asked if you have the figures. you then asked me to "comb through the US Customs import/export data" you have to be out of your mind. the pompous guy making some outlandish claims is asking his opponent to prove his "claim" wrong :))) the onus is on you to prove you are right. you made that claim. provide the numbers. oh noes, you don't have the numbers?

    annoyed? what, someone who doesn't take ur bullshit, excuse me, "claim" at face value? annoyed? good. maybe that will stop you from making similar claims in the future.

    what recipe? using completely unrelated data to prove your point? please.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • What if China was only a fraction of its size and population, would its National Socialist, public capitalism model be so impressive without such a huge internal market? Not really, as it is precisely the size of the internal market that also allows such a huge government to be able to rule without revolution, by way of keeping the Jack Ma bourgeoisie happy. We shall see if enough Jack Mas are happy in the future, or if enough proles get eventually resentful at the Jack Mas. Or if the state within the state, the famed PLA, eventually grows too big and/or resentful even for the current military-industrial complex to hold it… not to mention, beating up hapless Tibetans and Muslims will not be the same as the arms race that looms with powers abroad…

    Furthermore, the way the National Socialist Chinese regime dumps away credit to Third World nations may or may not follow the same overextended credit pattern that ruined Pax Americana… and if pesky little Greece ruined Europe, what would happen if several nations, including maybe even the US, defaulted on the Chinese? How low can you go, yuan?

    Furthermore, what would China and other Confucian-raised cultures be without thousands of years of emphasis on discipline and structure? Culture that the Paramount Leader nearly erased from the earth to replace with backyard steel furnaces, by the way, if it was not for Deng.

    Anyway, I know your overlords might probably win, but don’t try to convert us before that happens. Will need to see to believe.
    Plus, freedom is okay.

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  • @Erebus

    well, which part of that has to do with the inputs in our discussion?
     
    The salient parts are the ones that come after, that you didn't quote. I get the distinct impression you're getting the peripherals, but the decisive points aren't getting through so we keep going round & round 1 spot.

    Had you read the rest of my points regarding the trade balance, you'd see the very likely results of the "comparison" you seem determined to make.
    Go to the links, particularly the latter which is very good and intuitive, and do some exploring. You'll see that China imports only those manufactured goods it can't make - like Boeings & high end chipsets - or can't make well - like Caterpillars and some chemicals (if we're talking about the US). The US, meanwhile imports a vast array of manufactured goods from China, based not on any in/ability to make it, but based on price and the fact that there's no obvious penalty for doing so.
    A quick back-of-the-napkin calculation indicates that China sells 4-5x more manufactured goods to the US than the reverse. Do you think the US' Apple Corps are gonna reverse that, much less reverse the component part of it? If you do, I haven't the foggiest idea how to go about disabusing you of the notion except to suggest you go to the numbers.

    US Customs publishes very good data and it's easy to find. Look up the data, do your calcs, and I'd wager 10:1 that you'll come up with a graph that looks like the Manufacturing Employment curve at the Fed.

    those manufactured goods would already be counted towards the chinese total mfg. again, it has nothing to do with our discussion as it it already counted towards the chinese total mfg output.

    (just talking points, no real numbers)
    us produces inputs(A) for products like iphone being made in china, us also takes in inputs(B) from china for products like your washing machine. if the total $$$ value of A is greater than B, that is a net positive. if lower, net negative. if negative, then you would be right, if positive, the feds numbers would be right. how right or wrong depends on numbers for both A and B.

    I would continue to quote this as you continue to ignore it :)

    China imports only those manufactured goods it can’t make – like Boeings & high end chipsets – or can’t make well – like Caterpillars and some chemicals (if we’re talking about the US). The US, meanwhile imports a vast array of manufactured goods from China, based not on any in/ability to make it, but based on price and the fact that there’s no obvious penalty for doing so.

    what is wrong with the chinese importing stuff they can’t make? isn’t it obvious? as everything they can make is going to be cheaper than importing from the usa. isn’t it obvious? that means it is also importing on price. importing what it needs and can’t make is so obvious it doesn’t even need to be mentioned. you can’t spin this, you can try, but you can’t.

    you seem to like to dwell on stuff that is completely unrelated to the point.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Erebus
    You're becoming annoying.

    I would continue to quote this as you continue to ignore it :)
     
    I didn't. You just didn't notice that I gave you the recipe, some helpful links (esp. the MIT link), and even did some quick back-of-napkin calcs to start you on the path to answering the question you're obsessing over. If you're hoping I'll do the rest of the legwork for you, you'll be disappointed.

    People with "zero back ground in mfg" need to educate themselves if they want answers to questions about manufacturing that aren't available nicely packaged and delivered to their computer screen for the asking. You need it answered, so get the answer. You may have to build a spreadsheet, but if you have the necessary "background" for that, it shouldn't be more than a few day's work.

    In answer to your snark, I'll also not try to convince you that your judgement of "irrelevancy" is a product of same ignorance you applied to the calculation of Real Manufacturing Output. That you now apply it to how/what things get made & traded across international borders, with almost the same level of pompous certainty, is a bridge too far for me. The legwork, should you choose to do it, will teach you that as well and may eventually show you why my points were relevant after all.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Lin
    " Its not the like the indian military will go around handing top secret indian documents to foreigners "
    Haha, that was exactly what happened. The whole is well documented enough that I don't need to elaborate further. It was then a big embarrassment to the indian gov establishment.
    From a nationalistic indian military site:
    http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news/1962-war-why-keep-henderson-brooks-report-secret/
    .....
    One thing I didn't know is even Nixon and Kissinger had read Neville Maxwell's book
    ...................
    "Talk bad about hinduwadi’s, hindu nationalists i dont care, just dont talk sh*t about india. And tell us what does the book report say? And no indians dont see chinese as enemies as much as chinese see indians. Dont believe me.? "
    From a nationalistic indian military site

    Given your record of accusing china "encircling india" and "giving Pak nukes", haha, let me put it this way, its like Mr. Modi said he had no complication in the 2002 anti-muslim riots in Gujurat.

    ”Given your record of accusing china “encircling india” and “giving Pak nukes”, haha, let me put it this way, its like Mr. Modi said he had no complication in the 2002 anti-muslim riots in Gujurat.”

    I dont give a sh*t about modi. But isnt china doing the above?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lin
    "...”Given your record of accusing china “encircling india” and “giving Pak nukes”, haha, let me put it this way, its like Mr. Modi said he had no complication in the 2002 anti-muslim riots in Gujurat.”

    I dont give a sh*t about modi. But isnt china doing the above?..."

    Look, repeating the accusation doesn't make the accusation valid.

    I can see Bharat was beaten in military, economics, tech... arenas but your attempt to play victim has failed.
    (And I've quoted valid facts like the Henderson Brooke report and uranium from candu reactor )
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • well, which part of that has to do with the inputs in our discussion?

    The salient parts are the ones that come after, that you didn’t quote. I get the distinct impression you’re getting the peripherals, but the decisive points aren’t getting through so we keep going round & round 1 spot.

    Had you read the rest of my points regarding the trade balance, you’d see the very likely results of the “comparison” you seem determined to make.
    Go to the links, particularly the latter which is very good and intuitive, and do some exploring. You’ll see that China imports only those manufactured goods it can’t make – like Boeings & high end chipsets – or can’t make well – like Caterpillars and some chemicals (if we’re talking about the US). The US, meanwhile imports a vast array of manufactured goods from China, based not on any in/ability to make it, but based on price and the fact that there’s no obvious penalty for doing so.
    A quick back-of-the-napkin calculation indicates that China sells 4-5x more manufactured goods to the US than the reverse. Do you think the US’ Apple Corps are gonna reverse that, much less reverse the component part of it? If you do, I haven’t the foggiest idea how to go about disabusing you of the notion except to suggest you go to the numbers.

    US Customs publishes very good data and it’s easy to find. Look up the data, do your calcs, and I’d wager 10:1 that you’ll come up with a graph that looks like the Manufacturing Employment curve at the Fed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    those manufactured goods would already be counted towards the chinese total mfg. again, it has nothing to do with our discussion as it it already counted towards the chinese total mfg output.

    (just talking points, no real numbers)
    us produces inputs(A) for products like iphone being made in china, us also takes in inputs(B) from china for products like your washing machine. if the total $$$ value of A is greater than B, that is a net positive. if lower, net negative. if negative, then you would be right, if positive, the feds numbers would be right. how right or wrong depends on numbers for both A and B.
     
    I would continue to quote this as you continue to ignore it :)

    China imports only those manufactured goods it can’t make – like Boeings & high end chipsets – or can’t make well – like Caterpillars and some chemicals (if we’re talking about the US). The US, meanwhile imports a vast array of manufactured goods from China, based not on any in/ability to make it, but based on price and the fact that there’s no obvious penalty for doing so.
     
    what is wrong with the chinese importing stuff they can't make? isn't it obvious? as everything they can make is going to be cheaper than importing from the usa. isn't it obvious? that means it is also importing on price. importing what it needs and can't make is so obvious it doesn't even need to be mentioned. you can't spin this, you can try, but you can't.

    you seem to like to dwell on stuff that is completely unrelated to the point.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Skullcrusher
    Hate my good and glorious America if you wish, but get the facts right. Here are the commie murder totals:

    https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

    This source claims that the USSR edges out the PRC for #1 but if you read down a bit it becomes clear that this is a matter of definitions and they are ignoring the communist caused famines like the Great Leap Forward unless they were famines for the purpose of murder instead of just incompetence. Add those in and the PRC wins the Murder Cup. Plus I was actually discussing China, not just the PRC, so you also have to add in all the nationalist Chinese murders (~10 million). Even that is really an undercount because I only went back a hundred years and the civil wars in the 1800's killed millions more, which is all the more "impressive" because it was mostly without guns.

    Here are American totals from the same source:

    https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP13.HTM

    'Murica barely breaks half a million, mostly in nasty wars, and most of those are from WW2 bombing which I'm not sure even counts. This is two+ orders of magnitude below China & Russia. I am content to not be #1 in this special case.

    Troll on, dude!

    GLF for dummies

    In the 50/60′s China was in mortal danger, confronted by both
    superpowers USA/USSR.
    The Chinese went to bed every night wondering whether they’d wake up to see the next sunrise, murkkan/soviet nuclear first strike were like two swords of damocles hanging over their heads.
    China was militarily encircled and the masses were bearing the brunt of a murderous fukus trade and food embargo.
    Like Cuba, the Anglos were determined to nib the ‘threat of good example’ in the bud.

    Thats what drove Mao to launch the GLF, ‘to leapfrog UK and catapult China into the industrial ranks, its a do or die mission cuz fukus were going for China’s jugular the moment it’s born.

    As the chart sheet goes,
    GLF ended in disaster, resulting in famines that killed xxx millions.
    Hence the myth of Mao the ‘mass murderer’ was born.

    [MORE]

    ————————-

    ‘Hate my good and glorious America if you wish, ‘

    Hmm may be I also
    ‘hate your freedom and your way of life’
    hhhh

    ‘but get the facts right. Here are the commie murder totals:

    https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM&#8217;

    ………………………………..
    ‘communist China (about 27,000,000 dead from 1959-61)’

    Your ‘source’ throw around lots of bombastic figures,
    but where’s the Context, citations ???

    The trouble with murkkans is they couldnt even differentiate bet fact and fiction.

    Crime investigation for dummies.

    These are verifiable facts….

    Was it your son whose bombs hit a bridge in central Serbia crowded with traffic and pedestrians on a Sunday afternoon, where 17 people were wounded and nine people died, including “a priest with his head blasted away?” (Reuters, 30 May).

    Or was it your son who, four minutes after the initial attack, hit the bridge again just as help arrived for the surviving victims?

    - Was it your son whose bombs decapitated a Serbian child? “We found the head of a child in a garden and many limbs in the mud. But you don’t want to report that.

    CNN filmed the bodies, but they don’t show them on television” (The Independent, 29 April).

    Unless you wann tell me Reuters of all media, was embarking on an disinfo campaign to smear fukus ?
    hhhhhh

    ‘‘Murica barely breaks half a million, mostly in nasty wars’

    The indon genocide in 1965 alone killed at least 3m,

    ‘Chiang Kai Shek killed 10m’

    Who backed Suharto, Chiang , trained and sold arms to their shock troops ?

    The Shah of Iran,
    The Ngo bros of SVnam,
    The Pinochets,
    The Saddam HUssein,/,,,,,

    How many did they killed, who was their mentor ?

    USA was complicit in at least 30m deaths by proxies…

    The hundreds of murkkan wars of aggressions since ww2 killed another 30m, by a very conservative estimate .

    ‘Murica barely breaks half a million, mostly in nasty wars, and most of those are from WW2 bombing which I’m not sure even counts’

    Where did I hear that one before ?

    The evolution of murkkan apologists for genocides,

    ‘whats all the fuss, innocents always get killed in wars’ ! [1]

    ‘sorry we dont count collateral damages’
    [dehumanising the dead!
    was it Bush ?]

    ‘MADdline Albright
    [500000 Iraqi children are worth it !]

    Trust Trump to have the last word on this,
    ‘collateral damages is a fact of life, get used to it’

    So USA didnt killed 60m defenceless civilians,
    hell, it ‘barely breaks half a million’ ,
    hmm, something to be proud of, [2]

    But HEY, those Maoists must be held accountable for the xxxm they murdered in the GLF/CR

    hhhhhh

    [1]
    Harold Pinter
    I was present at a meeting at the US embassy in London in the late 1980s.

    The United States Congress was about to decide whether to give more money to the Contras in their campaign against the state of Nicaragua. I was a member of a delegation speaking on behalf of Nicaragua but the most important member of this delegation was a Father John Metcalf. The leader of the US body was Raymond Seitz (then number two to the ambassador, later ambassador himself). Father Metcalf said: ‘Sir, I am in charge of a parish in the north of Nicaragua. My parishioners built a school, a health centre, a cultural centre. We have lived in peace. A few months ago a Contra force attacked the parish. They destroyed everything: the school, the health centre, the cultural centre. They raped nurses and teachers, slaughtered doctors, in the most brutal manner. They behaved like savages. Please demand that the US government withdraw its support from this shocking terrorist activity.’

    Raymond Seitz had a very good reputation as a rational, responsible and highly sophisticated man. He was greatly respected in diplomatic circles. He listened, paused and then spoke with some gravity. ‘Father,’ he said, ‘let me tell you something.
    In war, innocent people always suffer.’
    There was a frozen silence.

    We stared at him. He did not flinch.

    [2]
    Harold Pinter,
    ‘It never happened. Nothing ever happened. Even while it was happening it wasn’t happening. It didn’t matter. It was of no interest. The crimes of the United States have been systematic, constant, vicious, remorseless, but very few people have actually talked about them. You have to hand it to America. It has exercised a quite clinical manipulation of power worldwide while masquerading as a force for universal good. It’s a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis.

    I put to you that the United States is without doubt the greatest show on the road.

    Brutal, indifferent, scornful and ruthless it may be but it is also very clever. As a salesman it is out on its own and its most saleable commodity is self love. It’s a winner. Listen to all American presidents on television say the words, ‘the American people’, as in the sentence, ‘I say to the American people it is time to pray and to defend the rights of the American people and I ask the American people to trust their president in the action he is about to take on behalf of the American people.’

    Read More
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  • @Erebus

    no I have not :) the original topic was if there was a drop in “real” us mfg output and if yes, if it was moved to china and else where. the comparison is needed to tell if it really did drop and/or moved.
     
    I have no idea why you think the "comparison is needed", but if it is needed to convince you, do as I suggested and comb through the US Customs import/export data. Look for products that are likely to be used as components and look at their trends. I don't know how you're gonna do that with any confidence if you "have zero back ground in mfg", but you can try giving it your best shot.

    if this is as good as it gets, then there is no answer. because what is being use to make inputs for other countries and what is being use for inputs + products for our own use? we are in this discussion because I learned through you that inputs from other countries end up counting towards the final product. you would be right if this was just a one sided trade, china the only one providing inputs for the us market but not the usa. but it isn’t.
     
    I'm 99.9% certain I'm right so far as I went, and that it's true regardless of whether it's one-sided or not. The USA runs a $300B trade deficit with China every year. That is, China typically sells 2x more to America than it buys, and the bulk of what China buys is based in the agriculture and energy fields.
    You can get overviews here: https://www.chinabusinessreview.com/what-america-exports-to-china/.
    And here:
    https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/chn/usa/show/2016/

    I have no idea why you think the “comparison is needed”

    points down

    (just talking points, no real numbers)
    us produces inputs(A) for products like iphone being made in china, us also takes in inputs(B) from china for products like your washing machine. if the total $$$ value of A is greater than B, that is a net positive. if lower, net negative. if negative, then you would be right, if positive, the feds numbers would be right. how right or wrong depends on numbers for both A and B.

    The USA runs a $300B trade deficit

    well, which part of that has to do with the inputs in our discussion? this still would not matter, as I would just point up :) this is the same as the direct sales. have nothing to do with what we discussed. trade imbalances have nothing to do with mfg output.

    comb through the US Customs import/export data.

    if this is not readily available, I would need to be paid to do this :)

    ps: taking data from 1 side only and screaming your conclusion on top of a mountain still doesn’t make you right :)

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Astuteobservor II

    O dear. You’re not a car manufacturer, are you? The NAICS codes you linked are part of reporting system that makes no pretence to reporting everything-that-happens-with-everything-and-everyone. You didn’t manufacture that car, and therefore you didn’t “employ a component” as defined by the reporting system, so it reports the fan belt as a “finished good” and emphatically not as an “input” of any sort. Components are defined as industrial inputs when used in creating a new product with a new product code. Only a manufacturer can create the latter. You didn’t. This is critical to understand. For the reporting system, there is no “input” if the product code didn’t change. Is that clear now?
     
    I have zero back ground in mfg :) let alone cars :) back on topic: why even bring up direct parts sales though? as that would clearly retain the chinese mfg codes and count towards the chinese total mfg right? why care about it if it doesn't count towards the us total mfg output? like why?????
    this also ties into your

    The reporting system cares a lot, as do those who make policy decisions based on the numbers it generates. Not to mention those who discuss it in 1000s of words on internet forums!
     
    all those sales would already be counted as part of chinese total output. why do you keep on bringing this up? it is already accounted for.

    Well, you’ve now wandered a long way from the original discussion, which was whether US manufacturing (qua making stuff) had, or had not dropped in the face of the Fed’s rising Real Manufacturing Output numbers. I showed that it may well have, and I think you see that now.
     
    no I have not :) the original topic was if there was a drop in "real" us mfg output and if yes, if it was moved to china and else where. the comparison is needed to tell if it really did drop and/or moved.

    (just talking points, no real numbers)
    us produces inputs(A) for products like iphone being made in china, us also takes in inputs(B) from china for products like your washing machine. if the total $$$ value of A is greater than B, that is a net positive. if lower, net negative. if negative, then you would be right, if positive, the feds numbers would be right. how right or wrong depends on numbers for both A and B.

    you got the figures and numbers for both?

    direct parts sales have nothing to do with any of this as they would already be counted towards the respective mfg output of both countries.


    These include manufacturing employment, resources & raw materials entering the system, industrial electricity use, and others. Taken together, they give a pretty good picture of what’s happening
     
    if this is as good as it gets, then there is no answer. because what is being use to make inputs for other countries and what is being use for inputs + products for our own use? we are in this discussion because I learned through you that inputs from other countries end up counting towards the final product. you would be right if this was just a one sided trade, china the only one providing inputs for the us market but not the usa. but it isn't.

    no I have not :) the original topic was if there was a drop in “real” us mfg output and if yes, if it was moved to china and else where. the comparison is needed to tell if it really did drop and/or moved.

    I have no idea why you think the “comparison is needed”, but if it is needed to convince you, do as I suggested and comb through the US Customs import/export data. Look for products that are likely to be used as components and look at their trends. I don’t know how you’re gonna do that with any confidence if you “have zero back ground in mfg”, but you can try giving it your best shot.

    if this is as good as it gets, then there is no answer. because what is being use to make inputs for other countries and what is being use for inputs + products for our own use? we are in this discussion because I learned through you that inputs from other countries end up counting towards the final product. you would be right if this was just a one sided trade, china the only one providing inputs for the us market but not the usa. but it isn’t.

    I’m 99.9% certain I’m right so far as I went, and that it’s true regardless of whether it’s one-sided or not. The USA runs a $300B trade deficit with China every year. That is, China typically sells 2x more to America than it buys, and the bulk of what China buys is based in the agriculture and energy fields.
    You can get overviews here: https://www.chinabusinessreview.com/what-america-exports-to-china/.
    And here:

    https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/chn/usa/show/2016/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    I have no idea why you think the “comparison is needed”
     
    points down

    (just talking points, no real numbers)
    us produces inputs(A) for products like iphone being made in china, us also takes in inputs(B) from china for products like your washing machine. if the total $$$ value of A is greater than B, that is a net positive. if lower, net negative. if negative, then you would be right, if positive, the feds numbers would be right. how right or wrong depends on numbers for both A and B.
     

    The USA runs a $300B trade deficit
     
    well, which part of that has to do with the inputs in our discussion? this still would not matter, as I would just point up :) this is the same as the direct sales. have nothing to do with what we discussed. trade imbalances have nothing to do with mfg output.

    comb through the US Customs import/export data.
     
    if this is not readily available, I would need to be paid to do this :)

    ps: taking data from 1 side only and screaming your conclusion on top of a mountain still doesn't make you right :)

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • The Chinese workforce peaked in 2011. China did not get rich before it got old. The mega growth party is over. That doesn’t mean no growth but no superheat growth. And then there is all the debt in the excess of infrastructure and heavy industry. China will cope but the Gods of the Copybook Headings ultimately rule.

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  • @Anonymous
    Actually, no other culture in the history of the world has done more harm to humanity than Western Europe.

    You should read non western view points before you make such ignorant statements.

    And no other culture has done more good.

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  • @wrd9
    Jeff J. Brown - You're another Walter Duranty.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/19/world/asia/19dam.html

    http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/two-decades-after-forced-relocation-yangtze-dam-evictees-lack-compensation-04062016113308.html

    And you are another mainstream dupe. Radio Free Asia? Come on, that is CIA propaganda central. And the NYT? I know journos who have worked there and they all know its editors are a bunch of CIA NOCs and agents. Ditto Wapo and all the other MSM.

    William Casey was just stating the obvious, when he went on record saying,

    The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media

    He was also quoted as saying one journalist was worth 20 agents in the field. Maybe that’s why he “died” not long thereafter.

    So basically, you are offering of blue pill brainwash.

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  • @Erebus

    that fan belt is going to become a part of another product, just another input. why is there a difference?
     
    O dear. You're not a car manufacturer, are you? The NAICS codes you linked are part of reporting system that makes no pretence to reporting everything-that-happens-with-everything-and-everyone. You didn't manufacture that car, and therefore you didn't "employ a component" as defined by the reporting system, so it reports the fan belt as a "finished good" and emphatically not as an "input" of any sort. Components are defined as industrial inputs when used in creating a new product with a new product code. Only a manufacturer can create the latter. You didn't. This is critical to understand. For the reporting system, there is no "input" if the product code didn't change. Is that clear now?

    who cares if walmart sold the part as is?
     
    The reporting system cares a lot, as do those who make policy decisions based on the numbers it generates. Not to mention those who discuss it in 1000s of words on internet forums!

    what is the $$$ value of the imported parts? what percent of the total product value $$$? calculate that for both countries. well, just the usa alone is fine too. you need these figures to calculate the mfg loss of both countries. compare them. if usa alone, you will need the $$$ value of all parts shipped to china for final assembly. compare that to all the parts sold by china to us factories for final assembly. simple right? if we can find the figures.
     
    Well, you've now wandered a long way from the original discussion, which was whether US manufacturing (qua making stuff) had, or had not dropped in the face of the Fed's rising Real Manufacturing Output numbers. I showed that it may well have, and I think you see that now.

    When you ask "what percent of the total product value $$$" imported components represent, and whether the components going the other way compare in value, you're asking a very different thing. You'd have to look for the import/export data from US Customs to compare them at the US end. I worry that the data available may not be fine-grained enough to get to "the mfg loss of both countries", but in any case getting fine grained data from the Chinese end would surely be no easy task either.
    You have to keep in mind that there is no such category as "component". If Heinz exports a jar of mustard to China, it's exported as a manufactured good with an assigned code, and it may become a "component" in McDonald's hamburgers in China or be sold at a grocery store, but so far as I know there's no way to find out what happened to it after it hit China's shores.

    That's why anyone trying get a picture of what's happening to manufacturing in the USA looks at those data sets that I mentioned at the end of my last comment, and a variety of others. I don't think another path exists, but when one does that, a pretty dismal picture emerges. Perhaps that's why the Real Manufacturing Output is published by the St. Louis Fed, and the rest ignored or buried in the back pages of obscure journals.

    O dear. You’re not a car manufacturer, are you? The NAICS codes you linked are part of reporting system that makes no pretence to reporting everything-that-happens-with-everything-and-everyone. You didn’t manufacture that car, and therefore you didn’t “employ a component” as defined by the reporting system, so it reports the fan belt as a “finished good” and emphatically not as an “input” of any sort. Components are defined as industrial inputs when used in creating a new product with a new product code. Only a manufacturer can create the latter. You didn’t. This is critical to understand. For the reporting system, there is no “input” if the product code didn’t change. Is that clear now?

    I have zero back ground in mfg :) let alone cars :) back on topic: why even bring up direct parts sales though? as that would clearly retain the chinese mfg codes and count towards the chinese total mfg right? why care about it if it doesn’t count towards the us total mfg output? like why?????
    this also ties into your

    The reporting system cares a lot, as do those who make policy decisions based on the numbers it generates. Not to mention those who discuss it in 1000s of words on internet forums!

    all those sales would already be counted as part of chinese total output. why do you keep on bringing this up? it is already accounted for.

    Well, you’ve now wandered a long way from the original discussion, which was whether US manufacturing (qua making stuff) had, or had not dropped in the face of the Fed’s rising Real Manufacturing Output numbers. I showed that it may well have, and I think you see that now.

    no I have not :) the original topic was if there was a drop in “real” us mfg output and if yes, if it was moved to china and else where. the comparison is needed to tell if it really did drop and/or moved.

    (just talking points, no real numbers)
    us produces inputs(A) for products like iphone being made in china, us also takes in inputs(B) from china for products like your washing machine. if the total $$$ value of A is greater than B, that is a net positive. if lower, net negative. if negative, then you would be right, if positive, the feds numbers would be right. how right or wrong depends on numbers for both A and B.

    you got the figures and numbers for both?

    direct parts sales have nothing to do with any of this as they would already be counted towards the respective mfg output of both countries.

    These include manufacturing employment, resources & raw materials entering the system, industrial electricity use, and others. Taken together, they give a pretty good picture of what’s happening

    if this is as good as it gets, then there is no answer. because what is being use to make inputs for other countries and what is being use for inputs + products for our own use? we are in this discussion because I learned through you that inputs from other countries end up counting towards the final product. you would be right if this was just a one sided trade, china the only one providing inputs for the us market but not the usa. but it isn’t.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Erebus

    no I have not :) the original topic was if there was a drop in “real” us mfg output and if yes, if it was moved to china and else where. the comparison is needed to tell if it really did drop and/or moved.
     
    I have no idea why you think the "comparison is needed", but if it is needed to convince you, do as I suggested and comb through the US Customs import/export data. Look for products that are likely to be used as components and look at their trends. I don't know how you're gonna do that with any confidence if you "have zero back ground in mfg", but you can try giving it your best shot.

    if this is as good as it gets, then there is no answer. because what is being use to make inputs for other countries and what is being use for inputs + products for our own use? we are in this discussion because I learned through you that inputs from other countries end up counting towards the final product. you would be right if this was just a one sided trade, china the only one providing inputs for the us market but not the usa. but it isn’t.
     
    I'm 99.9% certain I'm right so far as I went, and that it's true regardless of whether it's one-sided or not. The USA runs a $300B trade deficit with China every year. That is, China typically sells 2x more to America than it buys, and the bulk of what China buys is based in the agriculture and energy fields.
    You can get overviews here: https://www.chinabusinessreview.com/what-america-exports-to-china/.
    And here:
    https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/chn/usa/show/2016/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Astuteobservor II

    So when Walmart imports a fan belt from China, the product code is recorded by US Customs, and as that code never changes along Walmart’s distribution chain and finally into your car, Walmart is not a Manufacturer, and that fan belt does not add to the RMO.
     
    comment 322. this is what I am talking about. why is there a distinction? that fan belt is going to become a part of another product, just another input. why is there a difference? why is it different than your washing machine example? who cares if walmart sold the part as is? whomever buys it is going to use it to make a final product. yes, you will have people buying it as a replacement to fix cars but without figures for that, how do you come to a conclusion one way or the other? after this comment 326, now I understand what you are talking about. this example isn't about inputs, you are talking about walmart selling the part directly in it's stores. the confusion was I thought you were talking about it as another input.

    software will be part of computer and software, not part of mfg. we were just focusing on the phone assembling in china. because that is 100% counted toward china total mfg output according to your example. NAICS code manual states it quiet clearly on that front. same with R&D, they will all count towards different, corresponding departments that isn't mfg.

    When Apple subsequently imports the completed iPhone, it imports it under the Industrial Code that applies to smartphones, and that EPROM chip’s now superseded Industrial Code is not mentioned in the import documents. Like the fanbelt you threw away, the chip doesn’t exist in the system. Apple imported an iPhone, not a collection of parts.
     
    yea I understand this, why do you think I counted the iphones towards the chinese total mfg?

    my “sort of” stands. unless you can provide the figures(total mfg output of the same type(using imported parts, and the percent value of all the imported parts in the final product) in both countries). even if you can just provide the us figures, it will be fine. I cannot find them.
     
    I don't understand how this concluding part of my previous comment is that hard to understand. it is about as clear as it gets, I doubt I can make it any clearer.

    lets try.

    products like iphones are counted towards chinese total mfg = assembled in china using imported parts and some chinese made parts.
    products like your washing machines is counted towards us total mfg = assembled in the usa using imported parts and some american made parts.

    lets ignore direct parts sales, that actually muddled the water and sew confusion.

    what is the $$$ value of the imported parts? what percent of the total product value $$$? calculate that for both countries. well, just the usa alone is fine too. you need these figures to calculate the mfg loss of both countries. compare them. if usa alone, you will need the $$$ value of all parts shipped to china for final assembly. compare that to all the parts sold by china to us factories for final assembly. simple right? if we can find the figures.

    without these figures, how can you tell if china is or isn't a scapegoat?

    that fan belt is going to become a part of another product, just another input. why is there a difference?

    O dear. You’re not a car manufacturer, are you? The NAICS codes you linked are part of reporting system that makes no pretence to reporting everything-that-happens-with-everything-and-everyone. You didn’t manufacture that car, and therefore you didn’t “employ a component” as defined by the reporting system, so it reports the fan belt as a “finished good” and emphatically not as an “input” of any sort. Components are defined as industrial inputs when used in creating a new product with a new product code. Only a manufacturer can create the latter. You didn’t. This is critical to understand. For the reporting system, there is no “input” if the product code didn’t change. Is that clear now?

    who cares if walmart sold the part as is?

    The reporting system cares a lot, as do those who make policy decisions based on the numbers it generates. Not to mention those who discuss it in 1000s of words on internet forums!

    what is the $$$ value of the imported parts? what percent of the total product value $$$? calculate that for both countries. well, just the usa alone is fine too. you need these figures to calculate the mfg loss of both countries. compare them. if usa alone, you will need the $$$ value of all parts shipped to china for final assembly. compare that to all the parts sold by china to us factories for final assembly. simple right? if we can find the figures.

    Well, you’ve now wandered a long way from the original discussion, which was whether US manufacturing (qua making stuff) had, or had not dropped in the face of the Fed’s rising Real Manufacturing Output numbers. I showed that it may well have, and I think you see that now.

    When you ask “what percent of the total product value $$$” imported components represent, and whether the components going the other way compare in value, you’re asking a very different thing. You’d have to look for the import/export data from US Customs to compare them at the US end. I worry that the data available may not be fine-grained enough to get to “the mfg loss of both countries”, but in any case getting fine grained data from the Chinese end would surely be no easy task either.
    You have to keep in mind that there is no such category as “component”. If Heinz exports a jar of mustard to China, it’s exported as a manufactured good with an assigned code, and it may become a “component” in McDonald’s hamburgers in China or be sold at a grocery store, but so far as I know there’s no way to find out what happened to it after it hit China’s shores.

    That’s why anyone trying get a picture of what’s happening to manufacturing in the USA looks at those data sets that I mentioned at the end of my last comment, and a variety of others. I don’t think another path exists, but when one does that, a pretty dismal picture emerges. Perhaps that’s why the Real Manufacturing Output is published by the St. Louis Fed, and the rest ignored or buried in the back pages of obscure journals.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    O dear. You’re not a car manufacturer, are you? The NAICS codes you linked are part of reporting system that makes no pretence to reporting everything-that-happens-with-everything-and-everyone. You didn’t manufacture that car, and therefore you didn’t “employ a component” as defined by the reporting system, so it reports the fan belt as a “finished good” and emphatically not as an “input” of any sort. Components are defined as industrial inputs when used in creating a new product with a new product code. Only a manufacturer can create the latter. You didn’t. This is critical to understand. For the reporting system, there is no “input” if the product code didn’t change. Is that clear now?
     
    I have zero back ground in mfg :) let alone cars :) back on topic: why even bring up direct parts sales though? as that would clearly retain the chinese mfg codes and count towards the chinese total mfg right? why care about it if it doesn't count towards the us total mfg output? like why?????
    this also ties into your

    The reporting system cares a lot, as do those who make policy decisions based on the numbers it generates. Not to mention those who discuss it in 1000s of words on internet forums!
     
    all those sales would already be counted as part of chinese total output. why do you keep on bringing this up? it is already accounted for.

    Well, you’ve now wandered a long way from the original discussion, which was whether US manufacturing (qua making stuff) had, or had not dropped in the face of the Fed’s rising Real Manufacturing Output numbers. I showed that it may well have, and I think you see that now.
     
    no I have not :) the original topic was if there was a drop in "real" us mfg output and if yes, if it was moved to china and else where. the comparison is needed to tell if it really did drop and/or moved.

    (just talking points, no real numbers)
    us produces inputs(A) for products like iphone being made in china, us also takes in inputs(B) from china for products like your washing machine. if the total $$$ value of A is greater than B, that is a net positive. if lower, net negative. if negative, then you would be right, if positive, the feds numbers would be right. how right or wrong depends on numbers for both A and B.

    you got the figures and numbers for both?

    direct parts sales have nothing to do with any of this as they would already be counted towards the respective mfg output of both countries.


    These include manufacturing employment, resources & raw materials entering the system, industrial electricity use, and others. Taken together, they give a pretty good picture of what’s happening
     
    if this is as good as it gets, then there is no answer. because what is being use to make inputs for other countries and what is being use for inputs + products for our own use? we are in this discussion because I learned through you that inputs from other countries end up counting towards the final product. you would be right if this was just a one sided trade, china the only one providing inputs for the us market but not the usa. but it isn't.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Erebus

    I fear you view China through rose colored lenses, as many westerners do.
     
    Fear no longer. There are many aspects of "Chinese characteristics" that I see as major obstacles to their being able to hang on to their successes for very long.
    China's challenges are daunting, but they are for just about all of us. Will it eventually fall, even assuming it meets those challenges? Of course it will.

    It’s been said the only difference between the two is that corrupt Chinese officials take the money and get things done, while corrupt Indian officials take the money and get nothing done.
     
    I've heard that from both Chinese and Indian businessmen. That's why the CPC gets support, and why most other governments in the world don't. The US Congress has a what, 11% approval rating? Taking the money and getting nothing (or worse) done is at least part of the reason why Americans feel that way about their govt. Most Chinese corruption is quite innocuous, like tax accountants taking a ¥500 case of HongJiu (red wine) when she visits the tax office with clients' statements as a "courtesy". The national govt has been on an anti-corruption drive that has caught some big fish. The guilty get a pretty rude, well publicized comeuppance, and it's having an effect.

    Both are known for clean, corruption free governments.
     
    You've got to be kidding, at least when it comes to Japan. As for Singapore, now that Lee Kuan Yew is gone, we'll see what happens. I'm a big fan of Singapore, and especially of Lee, but my guess is it'll slowly lose sight of his vision and Chinese characteristics will rise again.

    As long as the Chinese continue to speak Chinese, they will not rid themselves of their old culture, one that encourages corruption.
     
    It's not the corruption that I see as the main issue with the language. Corruption extends across cultures and languages so ubiquitously that one might view as a part of human nature. Rather, I see a number of systemic/structural issues with Pudonghua (Mandarin) that are impacting Chinese development and I think will continue to. That would require a rather long treatise to explicate, and this is hardly the place for it.
    Parenthetically, I read somewhere long ago that Mao proposed to get rid of the Chinese characters because he saw the limitations they posed. A traditionalist camp apparently forced him to compromise at the combination of Simplified Chinese and PinYin (Latin transliteration), though the latter was not officially adopted until 1979. No idea how true all that is, but PinYin, left alone, would have solved a lot of issues for China. Chinese children learn their ABCs in learning PinYin before moving on to characters and it seems to me it would be much more efficient to stop there and go on to Physics and Chemistry etc. Furthermore, PingYin is simple and purely phonetic, so would be vastly more transportable across linguistic divides.

    The majority of Chinese corruption is certainly not innocuous.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_safety_incidents_in_China

    About 80,000 dams have been built in China since 1949, 3,000 collapsed by 1980 including one that killed almost 200,000.

    Then there is “tofu construction”.

    https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/06/19/more-tofu-buildings-string-of-collapses-causes-alarm-in-china/

    And pervasive scientific fraud.

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628910-300-fraud-fighter-faked-research-is-endemic-in-china/

    https://www.sciencealert.com/80-of-the-data-in-chinese-clinical-trial-is-fabricated

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/world/asia/china-science-fraud-scandals.html

    And one of the crimes that the Chinese do in the West.

    https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/icbc-spain/

    A New Yorker article about Abacus bank was illuminating about how much tax evasion occurs in the Chinese community in NYC.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/12/the-accused-jiayang-fan

    China will not be able to maintain success unless it eradicates corruption. Whether China can replicate Hong Kong’s success will be doubtful as they are not implementing the same policy of education of the young along with punishment. And there are many beachheads of corrupt Chinese located across the world.

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  • @YiJiaYi
    "The whole process of getting to my current informed and enlightened awareness was akin to climbing an arduous summit, with a howling occidental hurricane blowing against my face. This is why I am so patient with friends, family, colleagues and strangers, when talking about their convictions and beliefs about how humanity works. With all due respect, most of them are still at base camp..."

    This is all you need to know about the writer of this silly piece. He's 63 years old and sounds like a Uni Snowflake. I've lived in China just as long and have a much different story to tell. I think the only thing bigger than the author's ego is the mountain of unsustainable debt that China has incurred to build these projects.

    Or, in a more vernacular vein... I mean, like, dude... realllyyyy???

    I’ve lived in China just as long and have a much different story to tell.

    tell that story :)

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  • @Erebus

    what decides when/if a code is changed/superseded?
     
    It gets changed/superceded prior to leaving the system automatically at time of sale. When I sell my washing machine to Walmart, the invoice reads (say):
    Qty: 2000 units
    Model Name: Maxi-Megalon 1000
    Price: $100 ea
    TOTAL: $200,000
    Net due: 30 days.
    If you are one of the 300 manufacturers that the USG tracks, you might include the Industrial Code that denotes a washing machine. Frankly I don't know as when I was manufacturing in a previous life we only had to include the code when we exported.

    Anyway, notice that nowhere does the Invoice mention fanbelts, motors, etc. They are gone from the tracking system. Walmart buys a washing machine, not a collection of parts, and the system is interested only in what the manufacturing chain, in the end, produced.

    since both parts/products in the examples you used eventually end up as a part of another product. according to your previous comment, both would count towards the us total mfg output.
     
    Well, I'm not sure what exactly you're asking about here, but if you're talking about the Walmart-fanbelt vs the Washing Machine-fanbelt, then the answer is simple.

    Commodity and Industrial Codes only appear within the system. An item leaves the system when it gets sold by the system's last reporting entity, in this case Walmart. The system doesn't know or care whether you installed it in your car, threw it out in disgust because it didn't fit, or used it to hang your neighbour's cat. The fanbelt left the reporting system at Walmart's cash register, and does not "eventually end up as a part of another product" as far as the system is concerned.

    BTW, if you're saying Apple procures parts in the USA and exports them to their overseas assembly contractors, then the situation may be a little more complex because there's software likely to be involved. Without digging into it, I don't know whether a "blank" EPROM chip (EG) has a different Industrial Code than one that's had software burned into it. If the code changes, and Apple does the loading or has it done in the USA, then it is a USA manufacturer and its sale of that chip is added to the RMO when it exports it. That's true whether or not they ever get paid for it. (That's why you often see the phrase "Value for Customs" on the Customs Declaration)
    Regardless of whether the chip changes codes, whatever code it has when it leaves the USA is when it leaves the NAICS to be imported by whatever offshore entity Apple "sold" it to.
    When Apple subsequently imports the completed iPhone, it imports it under the Industrial Code that applies to smartphones, and that EPROM chip's now superseded Industrial Code is not mentioned in the import documents. Like the fanbelt you threw away, the chip doesn't exist in the system. Apple imported an iPhone, not a collection of parts.

    So, no your "sort of" doesn't stand under any of these scenarios. Think of how the data is reported and compiled, and you'll see what the RMO number represents. Having said that, there are many other methods of tracking manufacturing activity (which ain't quite the same). These include manufacturing employment, resources & raw materials entering the system, industrial electricity use, and others. Taken together, they give a pretty good picture of what's happening, but the Fed's Real Manufacturing Output is a number that (imho) obscures their message, and taken alone is downright deceiving.

    So when Walmart imports a fan belt from China, the product code is recorded by US Customs, and as that code never changes along Walmart’s distribution chain and finally into your car, Walmart is not a Manufacturer, and that fan belt does not add to the RMO.

    comment 322. this is what I am talking about. why is there a distinction? that fan belt is going to become a part of another product, just another input. why is there a difference? why is it different than your washing machine example? who cares if walmart sold the part as is? whomever buys it is going to use it to make a final product. yes, you will have people buying it as a replacement to fix cars but without figures for that, how do you come to a conclusion one way or the other? after this comment 326, now I understand what you are talking about. this example isn’t about inputs, you are talking about walmart selling the part directly in it’s stores. the confusion was I thought you were talking about it as another input.

    software will be part of computer and software, not part of mfg. we were just focusing on the phone assembling in china. because that is 100% counted toward china total mfg output according to your example. NAICS code manual states it quiet clearly on that front. same with R&D, they will all count towards different, corresponding departments that isn’t mfg.

    When Apple subsequently imports the completed iPhone, it imports it under the Industrial Code that applies to smartphones, and that EPROM chip’s now superseded Industrial Code is not mentioned in the import documents. Like the fanbelt you threw away, the chip doesn’t exist in the system. Apple imported an iPhone, not a collection of parts.

    yea I understand this, why do you think I counted the iphones towards the chinese total mfg?

    my “sort of” stands. unless you can provide the figures(total mfg output of the same type(using imported parts, and the percent value of all the imported parts in the final product) in both countries). even if you can just provide the us figures, it will be fine. I cannot find them.

    I don’t understand how this concluding part of my previous comment is that hard to understand. it is about as clear as it gets, I doubt I can make it any clearer.

    lets try.

    products like iphones are counted towards chinese total mfg = assembled in china using imported parts and some chinese made parts.
    products like your washing machines is counted towards us total mfg = assembled in the usa using imported parts and some american made parts.

    lets ignore direct parts sales, that actually muddled the water and sew confusion.

    what is the $$$ value of the imported parts? what percent of the total product value $$$? calculate that for both countries. well, just the usa alone is fine too. you need these figures to calculate the mfg loss of both countries. compare them. if usa alone, you will need the $$$ value of all parts shipped to china for final assembly. compare that to all the parts sold by china to us factories for final assembly. simple right? if we can find the figures.

    without these figures, how can you tell if china is or isn’t a scapegoat?

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    • Replies: @Erebus

    that fan belt is going to become a part of another product, just another input. why is there a difference?
     
    O dear. You're not a car manufacturer, are you? The NAICS codes you linked are part of reporting system that makes no pretence to reporting everything-that-happens-with-everything-and-everyone. You didn't manufacture that car, and therefore you didn't "employ a component" as defined by the reporting system, so it reports the fan belt as a "finished good" and emphatically not as an "input" of any sort. Components are defined as industrial inputs when used in creating a new product with a new product code. Only a manufacturer can create the latter. You didn't. This is critical to understand. For the reporting system, there is no "input" if the product code didn't change. Is that clear now?

    who cares if walmart sold the part as is?
     
    The reporting system cares a lot, as do those who make policy decisions based on the numbers it generates. Not to mention those who discuss it in 1000s of words on internet forums!

    what is the $$$ value of the imported parts? what percent of the total product value $$$? calculate that for both countries. well, just the usa alone is fine too. you need these figures to calculate the mfg loss of both countries. compare them. if usa alone, you will need the $$$ value of all parts shipped to china for final assembly. compare that to all the parts sold by china to us factories for final assembly. simple right? if we can find the figures.
     
    Well, you've now wandered a long way from the original discussion, which was whether US manufacturing (qua making stuff) had, or had not dropped in the face of the Fed's rising Real Manufacturing Output numbers. I showed that it may well have, and I think you see that now.

    When you ask "what percent of the total product value $$$" imported components represent, and whether the components going the other way compare in value, you're asking a very different thing. You'd have to look for the import/export data from US Customs to compare them at the US end. I worry that the data available may not be fine-grained enough to get to "the mfg loss of both countries", but in any case getting fine grained data from the Chinese end would surely be no easy task either.
    You have to keep in mind that there is no such category as "component". If Heinz exports a jar of mustard to China, it's exported as a manufactured good with an assigned code, and it may become a "component" in McDonald's hamburgers in China or be sold at a grocery store, but so far as I know there's no way to find out what happened to it after it hit China's shores.

    That's why anyone trying get a picture of what's happening to manufacturing in the USA looks at those data sets that I mentioned at the end of my last comment, and a variety of others. I don't think another path exists, but when one does that, a pretty dismal picture emerges. Perhaps that's why the Real Manufacturing Output is published by the St. Louis Fed, and the rest ignored or buried in the back pages of obscure journals.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “The whole process of getting to my current informed and enlightened awareness was akin to climbing an arduous summit, with a howling occidental hurricane blowing against my face. This is why I am so patient with friends, family, colleagues and strangers, when talking about their convictions and beliefs about how humanity works. With all due respect, most of them are still at base camp…”

    This is all you need to know about the writer of this silly piece. He’s 63 years old and sounds like a Uni Snowflake. I’ve lived in China just as long and have a much different story to tell. I think the only thing bigger than the author’s ego is the mountain of unsustainable debt that China has incurred to build these projects.

    Or, in a more vernacular vein… I mean, like, dude… realllyyyy???

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    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    I’ve lived in China just as long and have a much different story to tell.
     
    tell that story :)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Jeff J. Brown
    60% of the cost of Three Gorges Dam was to move all the people affected, including their temples, cemeteries, monuments, statues, household effects, to move to new apartments in clean new towns. They also got paid compensation for the upheaval. This 60% rule is true for most land displacement projects in China. No other country in the world goes to this extent to take care of their citizens under these circumstances, certainly not the West.
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    • Replies: @Jeff J. Brown
    And you are another mainstream dupe. Radio Free Asia? Come on, that is CIA propaganda central. And the NYT? I know journos who have worked there and they all know its editors are a bunch of CIA NOCs and agents. Ditto Wapo and all the other MSM.

    William Casey was just stating the obvious, when he went on record saying,

    The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media

    He was also quoted as saying one journalist was worth 20 agents in the field. Maybe that's why he "died" not long thereafter.

    So basically, you are offering of blue pill brainwash.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anonymous
    Firstly i am not a hindu nationalist. Not every indian is a hindu nationalist. Also i want to ask you the same thing what do you take the forumers here. The whole world knows it was china who gave nukes to pak.

    ''Maxwell Neville had access to a secret internal document provided by the Indian military :The "Henderson Brook report". It basically outlined the stupidity and grossly inflated ego of Nehru and his clique. Sure Maxwell was much a hated figure to the hinduwadis.'' I can use the same logic here, what was the 'evidence' that it came from the indian military? Give me the evidence. Its not the like the indian military will go around handing top secret indian documents to foreigners, does it?. But if you can provide evidence, then i will accept it.

    Talk bad about hinduwadi's, hindu nationalists i dont care, just dont talk sh*t about india. And tell us what does the book report say? And no indians dont see chinese as enemies as much as chinese see indians. Dont believe me.? Ask a few chinese what they think about india and ask a few indians what they think about china and you will see more hostile answers from chinese about india than vice versa.

    ” Its not the like the indian military will go around handing top secret indian documents to foreigners ”
    Haha, that was exactly what happened. The whole is well documented enough that I don’t need to elaborate further. It was then a big embarrassment to the indian gov establishment.
    From a nationalistic indian military site:

    http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news/1962-war-why-keep-henderson-brooks-report-secret/

    …..
    One thing I didn’t know is even Nixon and Kissinger had read Neville Maxwell’s book
    ……………….
    “Talk bad about hinduwadi’s, hindu nationalists i dont care, just dont talk sh*t about india. And tell us what does the book report say? And no indians dont see chinese as enemies as much as chinese see indians. Dont believe me.? ”
    From a nationalistic indian military site

    Given your record of accusing china “encircling india” and “giving Pak nukes”, haha, let me put it this way, its like Mr. Modi said he had no complication in the 2002 anti-muslim riots in Gujurat.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    ''Given your record of accusing china “encircling india” and “giving Pak nukes”, haha, let me put it this way, its like Mr. Modi said he had no complication in the 2002 anti-muslim riots in Gujurat.''

    I dont give a sh*t about modi. But isnt china doing the above?
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  • what decides when/if a code is changed/superseded?

    It gets changed/superceded prior to leaving the system automatically at time of sale. When I sell my washing machine to Walmart, the invoice reads (say):
    Qty: 2000 units
    Model Name: Maxi-Megalon 1000
    Price: $100 ea
    TOTAL: $200,000
    Net due: 30 days.
    If you are one of the 300 manufacturers that the USG tracks, you might include the Industrial Code that denotes a washing machine. Frankly I don’t know as when I was manufacturing in a previous life we only had to include the code when we exported.

    Anyway, notice that nowhere does the Invoice mention fanbelts, motors, etc. They are gone from the tracking system. Walmart buys a washing machine, not a collection of parts, and the system is interested only in what the manufacturing chain, in the end, produced.

    since both parts/products in the examples you used eventually end up as a part of another product. according to your previous comment, both would count towards the us total mfg output.

    Well, I’m not sure what exactly you’re asking about here, but if you’re talking about the Walmart-fanbelt vs the Washing Machine-fanbelt, then the answer is simple.

    Commodity and Industrial Codes only appear within the system. An item leaves the system when it gets sold by the system’s last reporting entity, in this case Walmart. The system doesn’t know or care whether you installed it in your car, threw it out in disgust because it didn’t fit, or used it to hang your neighbour’s cat. The fanbelt left the reporting system at Walmart’s cash register, and does not “eventually end up as a part of another product” as far as the system is concerned.

    BTW, if you’re saying Apple procures parts in the USA and exports them to their overseas assembly contractors, then the situation may be a little more complex because there’s software likely to be involved. Without digging into it, I don’t know whether a “blank” EPROM chip (EG) has a different Industrial Code than one that’s had software burned into it. If the code changes, and Apple does the loading or has it done in the USA, then it is a USA manufacturer and its sale of that chip is added to the RMO when it exports it. That’s true whether or not they ever get paid for it. (That’s why you often see the phrase “Value for Customs” on the Customs Declaration)
    Regardless of whether the chip changes codes, whatever code it has when it leaves the USA is when it leaves the NAICS to be imported by whatever offshore entity Apple “sold” it to.
    When Apple subsequently imports the completed iPhone, it imports it under the Industrial Code that applies to smartphones, and that EPROM chip’s now superseded Industrial Code is not mentioned in the import documents. Like the fanbelt you threw away, the chip doesn’t exist in the system. Apple imported an iPhone, not a collection of parts.

    So, no your “sort of” doesn’t stand under any of these scenarios. Think of how the data is reported and compiled, and you’ll see what the RMO number represents. Having said that, there are many other methods of tracking manufacturing activity (which ain’t quite the same). These include manufacturing employment, resources & raw materials entering the system, industrial electricity use, and others. Taken together, they give a pretty good picture of what’s happening, but the Fed’s Real Manufacturing Output is a number that (imho) obscures their message, and taken alone is downright deceiving.

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    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    So when Walmart imports a fan belt from China, the product code is recorded by US Customs, and as that code never changes along Walmart’s distribution chain and finally into your car, Walmart is not a Manufacturer, and that fan belt does not add to the RMO.
     
    comment 322. this is what I am talking about. why is there a distinction? that fan belt is going to become a part of another product, just another input. why is there a difference? why is it different than your washing machine example? who cares if walmart sold the part as is? whomever buys it is going to use it to make a final product. yes, you will have people buying it as a replacement to fix cars but without figures for that, how do you come to a conclusion one way or the other? after this comment 326, now I understand what you are talking about. this example isn't about inputs, you are talking about walmart selling the part directly in it's stores. the confusion was I thought you were talking about it as another input.

    software will be part of computer and software, not part of mfg. we were just focusing on the phone assembling in china. because that is 100% counted toward china total mfg output according to your example. NAICS code manual states it quiet clearly on that front. same with R&D, they will all count towards different, corresponding departments that isn't mfg.

    When Apple subsequently imports the completed iPhone, it imports it under the Industrial Code that applies to smartphones, and that EPROM chip’s now superseded Industrial Code is not mentioned in the import documents. Like the fanbelt you threw away, the chip doesn’t exist in the system. Apple imported an iPhone, not a collection of parts.
     
    yea I understand this, why do you think I counted the iphones towards the chinese total mfg?

    my “sort of” stands. unless you can provide the figures(total mfg output of the same type(using imported parts, and the percent value of all the imported parts in the final product) in both countries). even if you can just provide the us figures, it will be fine. I cannot find them.
     
    I don't understand how this concluding part of my previous comment is that hard to understand. it is about as clear as it gets, I doubt I can make it any clearer.

    lets try.

    products like iphones are counted towards chinese total mfg = assembled in china using imported parts and some chinese made parts.
    products like your washing machines is counted towards us total mfg = assembled in the usa using imported parts and some american made parts.

    lets ignore direct parts sales, that actually muddled the water and sew confusion.

    what is the $$$ value of the imported parts? what percent of the total product value $$$? calculate that for both countries. well, just the usa alone is fine too. you need these figures to calculate the mfg loss of both countries. compare them. if usa alone, you will need the $$$ value of all parts shipped to china for final assembly. compare that to all the parts sold by china to us factories for final assembly. simple right? if we can find the figures.

    without these figures, how can you tell if china is or isn't a scapegoat?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Erebus

    woah, this is new to me. ... all those imputs from china would be counted towards the mfg output simply because the final product is being assembled in the usa?
     
    Not "simply because the final product is being assembled in the USA" but because the Real Manufacturing Output is recorded in $-value terms at the end of the manufacturing chain.

    As you kindly linked to the NAICS code manual, I can put this yet another way. Every product sold in N. America has an Industrial Code as jointly assigned by Mexico, Canada & the USA. As you saw, there's a staggering number of products and their codes listed. 1000 pages of them. The point at which a product's North American Industrial Code stops changing is where the manufacturing process is deemed to have ended, and its contribution to the RMO is recorded. So when Walmart imports a fan belt from China, the product code is recorded by US Customs, and as that code never changes along Walmart's distribution chain and finally into your car, Walmart is not a Manufacturer, and that fan belt does not add to the RMO. OTOH, if a washing machine manufacturer imports the very same belt and installs it in a washing machine, the belt's Industrial Code is superseded by a new Industrial Code, namely the washing machine's, and in doing so "releases" its $-value to the washing machine and the RMO $-value that that washing machine represents. Simple really. So simple that similar RMO calculations are used all over the world.

    BTW, one of the insidious things that's going on right now is that the USG is trying to find ways of capturing the activities of big international American based companies that own their brand and IP, but use overseas subcontractors to make their products, in the Fed's RMO calculation. That would reclassify American cos. such as Nike as "manufacturers" even though they own no factories on American soil (afaik), and produce nothing but designs and advertising slogans in the US. Apple, from what I understand, will be in the same boat. If they succeed, the RMO will soar and America will be Great Again, but nothing will change on the ground.

    Figures don't lie, but liars figure.
    PS: No, your comment missed the mark.

    BTW, one of the insidious things that’s going on right now is that the USG is trying to find ways of capturing the activities of big international American based companies that own their brand and IP, but use overseas subcontractors to make their products, in the Fed’s RMO calculation.

    that would get rid of all distinction between the two examples in my previous comment and roll both into us mfg output total. that is insidious. when this happens, I will concede the point. since this is essentially using mfg output from other countries and faking them as our own.

    back to the 2 examples you just gave. what decides when/if a code is changed/superseded? since both parts/products in the examples you used eventually end up as a part of another product. according to your previous comment, both would count towards the us total mfg output. now I am confused. based on your previous comment I thought products like iphone would count towards the chinese mfg output as the final product is assembled in china. and your washing machine counts towards the us total as it was assembled in the usa but with imported parts.

    that is why I asked for the total of both kinds in both countries. which I cannot find. without those numbers, your claim, as well as mine are no longer valid. as both are made without the actual correct data in light of your new info.

    figures don’t lie right? so, where are the figures? do they even exist? even the usa didn’t start tracking mfg output till about 1994. I tried, nothing came up in google for both china and usa. my google fu failed here.

    my “sort of” stands. unless you can provide the figures(total mfg output of the same type(using imported parts, and the percent value of all the imported parts in the final product) in both countries). even if you can just provide the us figures, it will be fine. I cannot find them.

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  • @MEFOBILLS
    Lin, The U.S. and the West transferred their knowledge base as patrimony to China, especially starting in the mid to early 90's.

    Clinton's MFN status for China came soon after China swept communist era debt off the ledger. Then Wall Street starting Green Mailing American Captains of Industry. This forced American industry to leave the country, to then get wage arbitrage.

    Entire factories and 100's of years of know how was sold cheaply to make wage arbitrage today. This short circuited the normal investment, equity, more investment cycle in the West. It also screwed the future by giving away know -how cheaply.

    At night, Chinese would transfer knowledge from Western factories to copy cat Chinese factories.

    China state banks also manipulated the Yuan Dollar ratio to keep dollar exchange rate high. This was done by buying TBills, rather than goods from American Mainstreet. So, recycled Chinese dollars, would then spin back out to buy more Chinese goods.

    Chinese inflows of dollars into the U.S. also did skiff and skim. Skiff was bribe money paid to dock workers. Retail got skim to place Chinese goods on American store shelves.

    China also gave out Yuan loans for American target industry, even going to trade fairs and the like. This then attracted American genius to then work for China. The American genius was taxpayer funded.

    So, any fair assessment of China has to include the many schemes that were run by Wall Street predators, as well as games played by Chinese manipulators.

    False pride......

    …At night, Chinese would transfer knowledge from Western factories to copy cat Chinese factories…

    hahaha…thanks for the chuckle!

    The evil Chinese must have done that at night in full acknowledgement that they’re dealing with a bunch of big nose retards, right?

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  • China is building 30000 km of HSR track more than the rest of the world combined, because the rest of the world is choosing to go faster and fly in airplanes what are getting safer, quieter, cheaper and cleaner and may soon get even faster with SST.

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  • @Astuteobservor II

    - the remaining 25 people + 2 new robots (5 people don’t get hired) continue to screw all those bits together to now make 12,000 washing machines/yr which I now sell for $90ea to Walmart. Manufacturing Output = $1.08M.

    The St. Louis Fed’s FRED chart records the increase: up 8%. Wall St and astute observers rejoice. However, please note that the only number that’s counted in “Manufacturing Output” is the last number in the chain, namely my sales.
     
    woah, this is new to me. just make sure I got everything and read up on the NAICS 2017 version.

    https://www.census.gov/eos/www/naics/2017NAICS/2017_NAICS_Manual.pdf
    Sector 31-33--Manufacturing, page 143. so according to your comment, all those imputs from china would be counted towards the mfg output simply because the final product is being assembled in the usa? now we just need to find out assemblers like apple(getting parts to china and assemble the product there) and ones like your example(getting parts from china and assemble products in the usa).

    what are the percentages for both? before that is clear, seems like we can't say one way or the other. my google fu failed to find this specific information, is it even publicly available?

    so my "sort of" comment was kinda spot on :)

    woah, this is new to me. … all those imputs from china would be counted towards the mfg output simply because the final product is being assembled in the usa?

    Not “simply because the final product is being assembled in the USA” but because the Real Manufacturing Output is recorded in $-value terms at the end of the manufacturing chain.

    As you kindly linked to the NAICS code manual, I can put this yet another way. Every product sold in N. America has an Industrial Code as jointly assigned by Mexico, Canada & the USA. As you saw, there’s a staggering number of products and their codes listed. 1000 pages of them. The point at which a product’s North American Industrial Code stops changing is where the manufacturing process is deemed to have ended, and its contribution to the RMO is recorded. So when Walmart imports a fan belt from China, the product code is recorded by US Customs, and as that code never changes along Walmart’s distribution chain and finally into your car, Walmart is not a Manufacturer, and that fan belt does not add to the RMO. OTOH, if a washing machine manufacturer imports the very same belt and installs it in a washing machine, the belt’s Industrial Code is superseded by a new Industrial Code, namely the washing machine’s, and in doing so “releases” its $-value to the washing machine and the RMO $-value that that washing machine represents. Simple really. So simple that similar RMO calculations are used all over the world.

    BTW, one of the insidious things that’s going on right now is that the USG is trying to find ways of capturing the activities of big international American based companies that own their brand and IP, but use overseas subcontractors to make their products, in the Fed’s RMO calculation. That would reclassify American cos. such as Nike as “manufacturers” even though they own no factories on American soil (afaik), and produce nothing but designs and advertising slogans in the US. Apple, from what I understand, will be in the same boat. If they succeed, the RMO will soar and America will be Great Again, but nothing will change on the ground.

    Figures don’t lie, but liars figure.
    PS: No, your comment missed the mark.

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    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    BTW, one of the insidious things that’s going on right now is that the USG is trying to find ways of capturing the activities of big international American based companies that own their brand and IP, but use overseas subcontractors to make their products, in the Fed’s RMO calculation.
     
    that would get rid of all distinction between the two examples in my previous comment and roll both into us mfg output total. that is insidious. when this happens, I will concede the point. since this is essentially using mfg output from other countries and faking them as our own.

    back to the 2 examples you just gave. what decides when/if a code is changed/superseded? since both parts/products in the examples you used eventually end up as a part of another product. according to your previous comment, both would count towards the us total mfg output. now I am confused. based on your previous comment I thought products like iphone would count towards the chinese mfg output as the final product is assembled in china. and your washing machine counts towards the us total as it was assembled in the usa but with imported parts.

    that is why I asked for the total of both kinds in both countries. which I cannot find. without those numbers, your claim, as well as mine are no longer valid. as both are made without the actual correct data in light of your new info.

    figures don't lie right? so, where are the figures? do they even exist? even the usa didn't start tracking mfg output till about 1994. I tried, nothing came up in google for both china and usa. my google fu failed here.

    my "sort of" stands. unless you can provide the figures(total mfg output of the same type(using imported parts, and the percent value of all the imported parts in the final product) in both countries). even if you can just provide the us figures, it will be fine. I cannot find them.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @denk

    Skullcrusher says:
    'How can the West be jealous or fearful of Chinese achievements? There aren’t any. China’s achievements in the last 100 years consist of murdering and ruining the lives of more people (almost all Chinamen) than anyone in history,'
     
    'jealous' ?
    YOu must be kidding !

    You'r the champ, no contest....
    'If killing peasants half way around the world is an Olympic event,
    murkka would clean up the medals every time,,........'


    http://www3.sympatico.ca/sr.gowans/bogeymen.html

    Hate my good and glorious America if you wish, but get the facts right. Here are the commie murder totals:

    https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

    This source claims that the USSR edges out the PRC for #1 but if you read down a bit it becomes clear that this is a matter of definitions and they are ignoring the communist caused famines like the Great Leap Forward unless they were famines for the purpose of murder instead of just incompetence. Add those in and the PRC wins the Murder Cup. Plus I was actually discussing China, not just the PRC, so you also have to add in all the nationalist Chinese murders (~10 million). Even that is really an undercount because I only went back a hundred years and the civil wars in the 1800′s killed millions more, which is all the more “impressive” because it was mostly without guns.

    Here are American totals from the same source:

    https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP13.HTM

    ‘Murica barely breaks half a million, mostly in nasty wars, and most of those are from WW2 bombing which I’m not sure even counts. This is two+ orders of magnitude below China & Russia. I am content to not be #1 in this special case.

    Troll on, dude!

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    • Replies: @denk
    GLF for dummies

    In the 50/60's China was in mortal danger, confronted by both
    superpowers USA/USSR.
    The Chinese went to bed every night wondering whether they'd wake up to see the next sunrise, murkkan/soviet nuclear first strike were like two swords of damocles hanging over their heads.
    China was militarily encircled and the masses were bearing the brunt of a murderous fukus trade and food embargo.
    Like Cuba, the Anglos were determined to nib the 'threat of good example' in the bud.

    Thats what drove Mao to launch the GLF, 'to leapfrog UK and catapult China into the industrial ranks, its a do or die mission cuz fukus were going for China's jugular the moment it's born.


    As the chart sheet goes,
    GLF ended in disaster, resulting in famines that killed xxx millions.
    Hence the myth of Mao the 'mass murderer' was born.


    -------------------------

    'Hate my good and glorious America if you wish, '
     
    Hmm may be I also
    'hate your freedom and your way of life'
    hhhh

    'but get the facts right. Here are the commie murder totals:

    https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM'
    ......................................
    'communist China (about 27,000,000 dead from 1959-61)'
     
    Your 'source' throw around lots of bombastic figures,
    but where's the Context, citations ???

    The trouble with murkkans is they couldnt even differentiate bet fact and fiction.

    Crime investigation for dummies.

    These are verifiable facts....

    Was it your son whose bombs hit a bridge in central Serbia crowded with traffic and pedestrians on a Sunday afternoon, where 17 people were wounded and nine people died, including “a priest with his head blasted away?” (Reuters, 30 May).

    Or was it your son who, four minutes after the initial attack, hit the bridge again just as help arrived for the surviving victims?

    - Was it your son whose bombs decapitated a Serbian child? “We found the head of a child in a garden and many limbs in the mud. But you don’t want to report that.

    CNN filmed the bodies, but they don’t show them on television” (The Independent, 29 April).

    Unless you wann tell me Reuters of all media, was embarking on an disinfo campaign to smear fukus ?
    hhhhhh

    '‘Murica barely breaks half a million, mostly in nasty wars'
     
    The indon genocide in 1965 alone killed at least 3m,

    'Chiang Kai Shek killed 10m'
     
    Who backed Suharto, Chiang , trained and sold arms to their shock troops ?

    The Shah of Iran,
    The Ngo bros of SVnam,
    The Pinochets,
    The Saddam HUssein,/,,,,,

    How many did they killed, who was their mentor ?

    USA was complicit in at least 30m deaths by proxies...

    The hundreds of murkkan wars of aggressions since ww2 killed another 30m, by a very conservative estimate .

    'Murica barely breaks half a million, mostly in nasty wars, and most of those are from WW2 bombing which I’m not sure even counts'

     

    Where did I hear that one before ?

    The evolution of murkkan apologists for genocides,


    'whats all the fuss, innocents always get killed in wars' ! [1]

    'sorry we dont count collateral damages'
    [dehumanising the dead!
    was it Bush ?]

    'MADdline Albright
    [500000 Iraqi children are worth it !]

    Trust Trump to have the last word on this,
    'collateral damages is a fact of life, get used to it'

    So USA didnt killed 60m defenceless civilians,
    hell, it 'barely breaks half a million' ,
    hmm, something to be proud of, [2]

    But HEY, those Maoists must be held accountable for the xxxm they murdered in the GLF/CR

    hhhhhh

    [1]
    Harold Pinter
    I was present at a meeting at the US embassy in London in the late 1980s.

    The United States Congress was about to decide whether to give more money to the Contras in their campaign against the state of Nicaragua. I was a member of a delegation speaking on behalf of Nicaragua but the most important member of this delegation was a Father John Metcalf. The leader of the US body was Raymond Seitz (then number two to the ambassador, later ambassador himself). Father Metcalf said: 'Sir, I am in charge of a parish in the north of Nicaragua. My parishioners built a school, a health centre, a cultural centre. We have lived in peace. A few months ago a Contra force attacked the parish. They destroyed everything: the school, the health centre, the cultural centre. They raped nurses and teachers, slaughtered doctors, in the most brutal manner. They behaved like savages. Please demand that the US government withdraw its support from this shocking terrorist activity.'

    Raymond Seitz had a very good reputation as a rational, responsible and highly sophisticated man. He was greatly respected in diplomatic circles. He listened, paused and then spoke with some gravity. 'Father,' he said, 'let me tell you something.
    In war, innocent people always suffer.'
    There was a frozen silence.

    We stared at him. He did not flinch.


    [2]
    Harold Pinter,
    'It never happened. Nothing ever happened. Even while it was happening it wasn't happening. It didn't matter. It was of no interest. The crimes of the United States have been systematic, constant, vicious, remorseless, but very few people have actually talked about them. You have to hand it to America. It has exercised a quite clinical manipulation of power worldwide while masquerading as a force for universal good. It's a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis.

    I put to you that the United States is without doubt the greatest show on the road.

    Brutal, indifferent, scornful and ruthless it may be but it is also very clever. As a salesman it is out on its own and its most saleable commodity is self love. It's a winner. Listen to all American presidents on television say the words, 'the American people', as in the sentence, 'I say to the American people it is time to pray and to defend the rights of the American people and I ask the American people to trust their president in the action he is about to take on behalf of the American people.'
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Erebus
    I understand and even agree with what you've said. Now let me explain how you can have higher Manufacturing Output numbers, while making less stuff. IOW, the data obscures what's really going on. I'll explain it by way of a simplified example....

    Say I have a factory employing 100 people making washing machines. It's the only manufacturing being done in the country, I am my vendors' only customer, and I in turn have only one customer....

    - I buy a motor, pulleys, and belts from a local motor mfr employing 25 people.
    - I buy a control panel & wiring harness from a local electronics mfr employing 25 people.
    - I buy castings from a local casting house employing 25 people.
    - I buy all the plastic injection parts from a local injection house employing 25 people.
    - I make all the steel parts - panels, tub, brackets etc - in-house, to which I've assigned 75 people.
    - the remaining 25 people screw all those bits together to make 10,000 washing machines/yr which I sell for $100ea to Walmart (who else?). Manufacturing Output = $1M.

    In 2001, China joins the WTO, and I change my business model...
    - I buy a motor, pulleys, and belts from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy a control panel & wiring harness from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy castings from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy my plastic parts from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy all the steel parts - panels, tub, brackets etc - from China, and I let those 75 people go.
    - the remaining 25 people + 2 new robots (5 people don't get hired) continue to screw all those bits together to now make 12,000 washing machines/yr which I now sell for $90ea to Walmart. Manufacturing Output = $1.08M.

    The St. Louis Fed's FRED chart records the increase: up 8%. Wall St and astute observers rejoice. However, please note that the only number that's counted in "Manufacturing Output" is the last number in the chain, namely my sales.

    You see, materials and components are Industrial Inputs, and are subsumed in the final sale wherever they came from. To avoid double counting (effectively being valued twice or more on their way to Walmart) my vendors' outputs, and their vendors' outputs are subsumed in my top line sales number, and that is so whether I sourced them locally, or offshore.

    In our little scenario 175 people lost their jobs, 4 companies closed (plus most of mine), the country doesn't make motors, plastic & steel parts, etc anymore, but the Fed's charts show manufacturing output went up. Put another way, “making things" collapsed, but Manufacturing went up. I always thought manufacturing and "making things" were equivalent, but nowadays apparently not.

    Anyway, that's how the US lost millions of mfg jobs and that's why people say that US mfg is dying. All those things don't get made, but the number goes up. The robots are a very small piece of the puzzle.

    - the remaining 25 people + 2 new robots (5 people don’t get hired) continue to screw all those bits together to now make 12,000 washing machines/yr which I now sell for $90ea to Walmart. Manufacturing Output = $1.08M.

    The St. Louis Fed’s FRED chart records the increase: up 8%. Wall St and astute observers rejoice. However, please note that the only number that’s counted in “Manufacturing Output” is the last number in the chain, namely my sales.

    woah, this is new to me. just make sure I got everything and read up on the NAICS 2017 version.

    https://www.census.gov/eos/www/naics/2017NAICS/2017_NAICS_Manual.pdf

    Sector 31-33–Manufacturing, page 143. so according to your comment, all those imputs from china would be counted towards the mfg output simply because the final product is being assembled in the usa? now we just need to find out assemblers like apple(getting parts to china and assemble the product there) and ones like your example(getting parts from china and assemble products in the usa).

    what are the percentages for both? before that is clear, seems like we can’t say one way or the other. my google fu failed to find this specific information, is it even publicly available?

    so my “sort of” comment was kinda spot on :)

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    • Replies: @Erebus

    woah, this is new to me. ... all those imputs from china would be counted towards the mfg output simply because the final product is being assembled in the usa?
     
    Not "simply because the final product is being assembled in the USA" but because the Real Manufacturing Output is recorded in $-value terms at the end of the manufacturing chain.

    As you kindly linked to the NAICS code manual, I can put this yet another way. Every product sold in N. America has an Industrial Code as jointly assigned by Mexico, Canada & the USA. As you saw, there's a staggering number of products and their codes listed. 1000 pages of them. The point at which a product's North American Industrial Code stops changing is where the manufacturing process is deemed to have ended, and its contribution to the RMO is recorded. So when Walmart imports a fan belt from China, the product code is recorded by US Customs, and as that code never changes along Walmart's distribution chain and finally into your car, Walmart is not a Manufacturer, and that fan belt does not add to the RMO. OTOH, if a washing machine manufacturer imports the very same belt and installs it in a washing machine, the belt's Industrial Code is superseded by a new Industrial Code, namely the washing machine's, and in doing so "releases" its $-value to the washing machine and the RMO $-value that that washing machine represents. Simple really. So simple that similar RMO calculations are used all over the world.

    BTW, one of the insidious things that's going on right now is that the USG is trying to find ways of capturing the activities of big international American based companies that own their brand and IP, but use overseas subcontractors to make their products, in the Fed's RMO calculation. That would reclassify American cos. such as Nike as "manufacturers" even though they own no factories on American soil (afaik), and produce nothing but designs and advertising slogans in the US. Apple, from what I understand, will be in the same boat. If they succeed, the RMO will soar and America will be Great Again, but nothing will change on the ground.

    Figures don't lie, but liars figure.
    PS: No, your comment missed the mark.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Astuteobservor II
    employment have nothing to do with mfg capacity/output. if you were talking about employment, I would have agreed with you and this entire comment chain would never have happened. but if employment was the main issue, cars would not be here, switch board girls would still be a thing. in the next 2-3 decades, about 30-45% of the jobs would be automated. you can't fight it, be prepare for it.

    1987 - 2017
    17.5 million workers down to 12.4m
    mfg output was 69 and went up to 129 (using 2009 as 100)

    this is 100% tech and efficiency. output per worker went up by about 250% there is really no need to use china for scapegoating.

    this is 2016 data

    Last year, U.S. manufacturers made about $5.4 trillion worth of goods and products (in constant 2009 dollars), according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis. The biggest categories were food, beverages and tobacco products ($817 billion), chemical products ($752 billion) and motor vehicles and parts ($670 billion).
     

    After adjusting for inflation, manufacturing output in the first quarter of this year was more than 80% above its level 30 years ago, according to BLS data. But while U.S. manufacturing output has increased in absolute terms, it still represents a smaller share of the economy than it used to: Manufacturing accounted for about 23% of gross output in 1997 (the first year for which such data are available) but just 18.5% last year.
     
    not bad at all. all the china scare is just illogical. it is the same as the china holding us debt scare, completely overblown and fear mongering, since us citizens owns most of the national debt.

    I understand and even agree with what you’ve said. Now let me explain how you can have higher Manufacturing Output numbers, while making less stuff. IOW, the data obscures what’s really going on. I’ll explain it by way of a simplified example….

    Say I have a factory employing 100 people making washing machines. It’s the only manufacturing being done in the country, I am my vendors’ only customer, and I in turn have only one customer….

    - I buy a motor, pulleys, and belts from a local motor mfr employing 25 people.
    - I buy a control panel & wiring harness from a local electronics mfr employing 25 people.
    - I buy castings from a local casting house employing 25 people.
    - I buy all the plastic injection parts from a local injection house employing 25 people.
    - I make all the steel parts – panels, tub, brackets etc – in-house, to which I’ve assigned 75 people.
    - the remaining 25 people screw all those bits together to make 10,000 washing machines/yr which I sell for $100ea to Walmart (who else?). Manufacturing Output = $1M.

    In 2001, China joins the WTO, and I change my business model…
    - I buy a motor, pulleys, and belts from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy a control panel & wiring harness from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy castings from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy my plastic parts from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy all the steel parts – panels, tub, brackets etc – from China, and I let those 75 people go.
    - the remaining 25 people + 2 new robots (5 people don’t get hired) continue to screw all those bits together to now make 12,000 washing machines/yr which I now sell for $90ea to Walmart. Manufacturing Output = $1.08M.

    The St. Louis Fed’s FRED chart records the increase: up 8%. Wall St and astute observers rejoice. However, please note that the only number that’s counted in “Manufacturing Output” is the last number in the chain, namely my sales.

    You see, materials and components are Industrial Inputs, and are subsumed in the final sale wherever they came from. To avoid double counting (effectively being valued twice or more on their way to Walmart) my vendors’ outputs, and their vendors’ outputs are subsumed in my top line sales number, and that is so whether I sourced them locally, or offshore.

    In our little scenario 175 people lost their jobs, 4 companies closed (plus most of mine), the country doesn’t make motors, plastic & steel parts, etc anymore, but the Fed’s charts show manufacturing output went up. Put another way, “making things” collapsed, but Manufacturing went up. I always thought manufacturing and “making things” were equivalent, but nowadays apparently not.

    Anyway, that’s how the US lost millions of mfg jobs and that’s why people say that US mfg is dying. All those things don’t get made, but the number goes up. The robots are a very small piece of the puzzle.

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    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    - the remaining 25 people + 2 new robots (5 people don’t get hired) continue to screw all those bits together to now make 12,000 washing machines/yr which I now sell for $90ea to Walmart. Manufacturing Output = $1.08M.

    The St. Louis Fed’s FRED chart records the increase: up 8%. Wall St and astute observers rejoice. However, please note that the only number that’s counted in “Manufacturing Output” is the last number in the chain, namely my sales.
     
    woah, this is new to me. just make sure I got everything and read up on the NAICS 2017 version.

    https://www.census.gov/eos/www/naics/2017NAICS/2017_NAICS_Manual.pdf
    Sector 31-33--Manufacturing, page 143. so according to your comment, all those imputs from china would be counted towards the mfg output simply because the final product is being assembled in the usa? now we just need to find out assemblers like apple(getting parts to china and assemble the product there) and ones like your example(getting parts from china and assemble products in the usa).

    what are the percentages for both? before that is clear, seems like we can't say one way or the other. my google fu failed to find this specific information, is it even publicly available?

    so my "sort of" comment was kinda spot on :)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Greg the American
    An engineer, great. Fixing engineer screwups is speciality of mine.

    You overstate the problems with fracking because your preference is that fossil fuels need to be phased out.

    While you are ultimately likely right about that, I think what you don't understand is as follows.

    Wealth and dynamic economies are needed to provide the innovation and social dynamism to fix these kind of problems. Poor places where people just survive are the worst for environmental conditions. Rich places where technological progress may happen will provide the solutions to perhaps enable us to survive. In addition, rich places have low birth rates.

    I believe if you people hinder the oil economy, a very important facet of everyone's well being and oil is not to be understated in that regard, then you will undercut the very mechanism (wealth and prosperity) which will ultimately solve the very problem you claim to be concerned about.

    The disconnect we probably have, as is the disconnect in the article above, is that foolish people believe economic and technological progress can continue under socialism and central planning, be it for environmental purposes or whatever. This is your mistake.

    Not my mistake,

    Your misinterpretation.

    In China, graduate engineers have been at the top of the polity since Deng. They are seeming to do a relatively good job.

    In Sth. Korea and Japan, they (we) are controlling the tech. companies, except Sony, thanks to its unwise investments in Hollywood many years ago.

    In the USA, accountants and lawyers run the companies. Lawyers and graauates of moronic ‘degrees ‘ increasingly are runnimg the place.

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  • @Erebus
    From what I've heard, about 1B Chinese speak Pudonghua (Mandarin). That is old info, so I'm guessing that number is up a lot as it is now taught in all schools and all have access. Those that were stuck in one of the local dialects/local languages were probably also semi-literate, at best, so having characters didn't help them much. In any case, different Pinyins can be generated for the different dialects just as the Taiwanese did for Taiwan, and Hong Kong did for Cantonese (Guangdonghua).

    At the end of the day, the reality is that Chinese children learn their ABCs & Pinyin first. Whenever I've asked why they go on to characters I've been told "Tradition". I read that as a euphemism for "I have no idea", which puts them in the same boat with me.

    8I have no knowledge about Vietnam other that as you say they speak another tonal language. But is there dialects in Vietnam that are as different from each other like those in China? It was long time ago but even in Chongqing where I lived locals outside oh our university mostly used Sichuan Hua dialect which while the closest to Potong Hua still presented problems in u understanding and that would include using different words altogether or sounds sunstitution. Saying si instead of shi and so forth. Now there is a lot of other dialects in China which cannot be understood by Potong Hua speakers which is basically north eastern dialect of dong bei. I am not sure how situation with Potong Hua spread and use in China across all provinces. Another would have been psychological aspect. Vietnam was willing to go with reform as Chinese characters were foreign for Vietnam and history between the two is not exactly warm and fuzzy. For China their characters system is indigenous and part of their history for millennia hence psychological cultural attachment and tradition. I also read that studying Chinese characters was actually improving math comprehension. So, it would be interesting if you could expand on your theory I find it very interesting. I do remember Anatoly Karlin touched on the subject once but it was more about difficulties of attaining and mantaining high literacy rates for chinese compared with europeans while you are coming from very different angle.

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  • @DB Cooper
    This is just ridiculous. Present day India is much bigger than it was before when India was created from the polity left behind after the British Raj left the subcontinent in 1947. Once the Indians were there own master they continue the good old tradition of the land grabbing expansionist British Raj without missing a beat. According to international law as the successor state of the British Raj India is entitled to the land under the jurisdiction of the British Raj but not anymore. But the land grabbing didn't stop when the British quit, it continue and become even more blatant. India is the only country post WWII that has invaded and grab land from every single of its neighbors.

    A google search will give you more info about it.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lin
    >>Dont talk to me like i am an idiot. What about his forward policy? Also you want ‘video evidence’ that china gave nukes to pak? Or paper trail? They can be destroyed. Or they can be done without a paper trail. <>Regarding maxwell, i thought it was ‘western propanganda’ if west talks good about india. But now you suddenly believe it? <<

    Is it how the hindu nationalists spread accusation and propaganda? eh? It happened; just the paper trail was burned ? Just what do you take the forumers here for, may I ask ?

    Maxwell Neville had access to a secret internal document provided by the Indian military :The "Henderson Brook report". It basically outlined the stupidity and grossly inflated ego of Nehru and his clique. Sure Maxwell was much a hated figure to the hinduwadis.

    BTW, pls forgive me for pointing out the obvious: the hindu nationalists will die with their 1962 butt scar aching. Military defeat happens to every country; really not a big deal from a long term historical perspective. If you guys consider China an arch enemy of Hindustan, then Hindustan has been defeated in more than one way. the only solace the hindu nationalists can claim would be something like, say, ancient hindus invented flying saucers:
    https://www.thenational.ae/world/hindu-nationalists-claim-ancient-sage-invented-spaceships-1.108594

    Firstly i am not a hindu nationalist. Not every indian is a hindu nationalist. Also i want to ask you the same thing what do you take the forumers here. The whole world knows it was china who gave nukes to pak.

    ”Maxwell Neville had access to a secret internal document provided by the Indian military :The “Henderson Brook report”. It basically outlined the stupidity and grossly inflated ego of Nehru and his clique. Sure Maxwell was much a hated figure to the hinduwadis.” I can use the same logic here, what was the ‘evidence’ that it came from the indian military? Give me the evidence. Its not the like the indian military will go around handing top secret indian documents to foreigners, does it?. But if you can provide evidence, then i will accept it.

    Talk bad about hinduwadi’s, hindu nationalists i dont care, just dont talk sh*t about india. And tell us what does the book report say? And no indians dont see chinese as enemies as much as chinese see indians. Dont believe me.? Ask a few chinese what they think about india and ask a few indians what they think about china and you will see more hostile answers from chinese about india than vice versa.

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    • Replies: @Lin
    " Its not the like the indian military will go around handing top secret indian documents to foreigners "
    Haha, that was exactly what happened. The whole is well documented enough that I don't need to elaborate further. It was then a big embarrassment to the indian gov establishment.
    From a nationalistic indian military site:
    http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news/1962-war-why-keep-henderson-brooks-report-secret/
    .....
    One thing I didn't know is even Nixon and Kissinger had read Neville Maxwell's book
    ...................
    "Talk bad about hinduwadi’s, hindu nationalists i dont care, just dont talk sh*t about india. And tell us what does the book report say? And no indians dont see chinese as enemies as much as chinese see indians. Dont believe me.? "
    From a nationalistic indian military site

    Given your record of accusing china "encircling india" and "giving Pak nukes", haha, let me put it this way, its like Mr. Modi said he had no complication in the 2002 anti-muslim riots in Gujurat.
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  • @Skullcrusher
    Mr. Wong - Instead of projecting your own (stereotypically Chinese) insecurities onto Westerners, could you at least entertain the possibility that I am just reporting what I have observed honestly to the best of my ability without either malice or envy? China IS rising and the US IS declining, but China is rising because you started so far in your self-inflicted hole that you had no where to go but up, and the US is declining because we are committing suicide in slow motion by abandoning the principles and culture that led to our unparalleled success.

    How can the West be jealous or fearful of Chinese achievements? There aren't any. China's achievements in the last 100 years consist of murdering and ruining the lives of more people (almost all Chinamen) than anyone in history, wrecking its own culture; and then badly copying the West to try to catch up, while simultaneously engineering its own future demographic collapse along with the world's biggest real estate bubble.

    Face it. No matter how right you think you are, you will always be wong.

    Skullcrusher says:
    ‘How can the West be jealous or fearful of Chinese achievements? There aren’t any. China’s achievements in the last 100 years consist of murdering and ruining the lives of more people (almost all Chinamen) than anyone in history,’

    ‘jealous’ ?
    YOu must be kidding !

    You’r the champ, no contest….
    If killing peasants half way around the world is an Olympic event,
    murkka would clean up the medals every time,,……..’

    http://www3.sympatico.ca/sr.gowans/bogeymen.html

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    • Replies: @Skullcrusher
    Hate my good and glorious America if you wish, but get the facts right. Here are the commie murder totals:

    https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

    This source claims that the USSR edges out the PRC for #1 but if you read down a bit it becomes clear that this is a matter of definitions and they are ignoring the communist caused famines like the Great Leap Forward unless they were famines for the purpose of murder instead of just incompetence. Add those in and the PRC wins the Murder Cup. Plus I was actually discussing China, not just the PRC, so you also have to add in all the nationalist Chinese murders (~10 million). Even that is really an undercount because I only went back a hundred years and the civil wars in the 1800's killed millions more, which is all the more "impressive" because it was mostly without guns.

    Here are American totals from the same source:

    https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP13.HTM

    'Murica barely breaks half a million, mostly in nasty wars, and most of those are from WW2 bombing which I'm not sure even counts. This is two+ orders of magnitude below China & Russia. I am content to not be #1 in this special case.

    Troll on, dude!
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  • @Anonymous
    And china also has seen it. Dont you think we dont know it? And india is only going towards US. because of china. China has been encircling india since years. China also gave nukes to pakistan (its like india giving to nukes to taiwan or japan). So ofcourse india is going to be going to cautious about china.
    It would be stupid not to be after all the above.

    That doesnt mean chinese or indians come on online forums and talk bad about each other. Esp when both countries are already doing this dance.

    —————————

    ‘You dont see indians talk about what they think china did as much as chinese talk about what they think india did. Why? Its almost always chinese talking sh*t about india than the other way round. Most of the time its chinese who start it. Why?’

    How old are you my friend ?

    The Indian MSM is always abuzz with ‘China threat’, exactly like their murkkan soul mates !
    Western MSM are also swarmed by Indians whenever a China thread is on, its like their ‘home ground’ see, the likes of WSJ/WAPO/GUARDIAN etc are all anti Chinese. propaganda rags !
    These days, Even English forums in China are taken over by this Indian cyber army ,,,,cuz the locals hardly read English !

    Alternate media like UNZ used to be the same until I cleansed it up, no kidding !
    What you see now is the aftermath of the clean up !
    STill, they come back , mostly as anons but I suspect some of the ‘western’ China baiters here are actually Indian trolls !

    ‘And china also has seen it. Dont you think we dont know it? And india is only going towards US. because of china’

    How did it all started anyway ?
    During the chini china bai bai B.S.
    India stabbed China in the back with the 1959 CIA/RAW engineered Tibet riots,
    followed up with the 1962 border provocation. [1]

    The Indians never forgave China for that self inflicted humiliation, they declared their undying loyalty to the murkkan cause from then on and never look back since !

    another provocation at the Sikkim border, 1987

    2008 CIA/RAW Tibet riots,

    2013, ‘Asia pivot’

    2017, Donglang provocation.

    ‘Wrong. India actually lost land.’

    [sic ]
    Read the comment by ‘currybeef‘ here,

    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017/07/06/sikkim-stand-off-china-india-collide-himalayas/

    he gave a good account of Indian expansionism, still not complete tho.

    ‘Chinese nuke to Pak’

    As Lin says, *where’s the proof , my dear’ ?

    See, unlike Indians and their murkkan soulmates who follow the British edict that .
    when you lie, lie big and stick to it’

    I actually back up what I claim…

    [1]
    This from the horse mouth, insider info….

    Gregory Clark, ex Aussie diplomat
    ‘ “Chinese aggression,” screamed the headlines. It took more than 10 years, and the book “India’s China War,” by the former London Times correspondent in New Delhi, Neville Maxwell, for the world to discover that in fact India had attacked China rather than vice versa.
    .
    At the time I was a junior China desk officer in the Australian
    Department of External Affairs. One needed only to look at a map to discover that the hostilities had begun after India moved troops into the Thagla Ridge area, north of the official version of the McMahon Line, which India was claiming as its northernmost frontier.
    .
    In other words, India must have started the fighting.

    .
    All this is relevant to the India-Pakistan confrontation today.
    China’s 1962 border war with India followed the 1959 Tibetan uprising (in which we now find that India and the CIA were involved).

    QED

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    >''The Indian MSM is always abuzz with ‘China threat’, exactly like their murkkan soul mates !''<''Western MSM are also swarmed by Indians whenever a China thread is on, its like their ‘home ground’ see, the likes of WSJ/WAPO/GUARDIAN etc are all anti Chinese. propaganda rags !<''These days, Even English forums in China are taken over by this Indian cyber army ,,,,cuz the locals hardly read English !''STill, they come back , mostly as anons but I suspect some of the ‘western’ China baiters here are actually Indian trolls !''How did it all started anyway ?
    During the chini china bai bai B.S.
    India stabbed China in the back with the 1959 CIA/RAW engineered Tibet riots,
    followed up with the 1962 border provocation. [1]<''

    Oh so this the reason for all that hate? Because you think india played a part in the 59 tibet riots? Lot of people have a vested interest in creating differences between china and india.

    Here are the events that actually happened.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War
    , @Anonymous
    >''The Indian MSM is always abuzz with ‘China threat’, exactly like their murkkan soul mates !''''
    What does western media say about india?
    Western MSM are also swarmed by Indians whenever a China thread is on, its like their ‘home ground’ see, the likes of WSJ/WAPO/GUARDIAN etc are all anti Chinese. propaganda rags !''

    When did it all began. And also dont chinese swarm those sites and write anti india stuff. I dont know i am asking you.

    ''These days, Even English forums in China are taken over by this Indian cyber army ,,,,cuz the locals hardly read English !''STill, they come back , mostly as anons but I suspect some of the ‘western’ China baiters here are actually Indian trolls !''

    Link me ot those chinese sites, i wont comment i just want to see. Also why do you think its walys indians who are using western names when some westerns too think they have issues about chinese. They are not capable of writing comments about chinese?. But hey believe what you want to believe.

    How did it all started anyway ?
    During the chini china bai bai B.S.
    India stabbed China in the back with the 1959 CIA/RAW engineered Tibet riots,
    followed up with the 1962 border provocation. [1]<''

    So this is the reason for all that hatred, you think india was involved in the tibetan uprising? Oh my god. Do you know that for a fact. Reading some random blog and believing it as true? Or is this i said china gave nukes to pak. If its because of the second reason then i have nothing to say. But if its for the first reason. A lot of people have a vested interest in creating differences between indians and chinese or to drive traffic to their blog. But if you still want to assume india was responsible for it, do it. But then you have to let indians assume a lot of things about chinese too. That maoists in india get weapons and material from chinese, that china was responsible for the partition of india, china was responsible for demonitisation, terror attacks in india, that china is responsible for keeping nepal borders open so that pak can send fake currency into india. Its not that we cant assume things about chinese too. But if we keep on assuming relations between indians and chinese will never improve.

    Also regarding the 1962 war

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

    '

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  • @MEFOBILLS
    Lin, The U.S. and the West transferred their knowledge base as patrimony to China, especially starting in the mid to early 90's.

    Clinton's MFN status for China came soon after China swept communist era debt off the ledger. Then Wall Street starting Green Mailing American Captains of Industry. This forced American industry to leave the country, to then get wage arbitrage.

    Entire factories and 100's of years of know how was sold cheaply to make wage arbitrage today. This short circuited the normal investment, equity, more investment cycle in the West. It also screwed the future by giving away know -how cheaply.

    At night, Chinese would transfer knowledge from Western factories to copy cat Chinese factories.

    China state banks also manipulated the Yuan Dollar ratio to keep dollar exchange rate high. This was done by buying TBills, rather than goods from American Mainstreet. So, recycled Chinese dollars, would then spin back out to buy more Chinese goods.

    Chinese inflows of dollars into the U.S. also did skiff and skim. Skiff was bribe money paid to dock workers. Retail got skim to place Chinese goods on American store shelves.

    China also gave out Yuan loans for American target industry, even going to trade fairs and the like. This then attracted American genius to then work for China. The American genius was taxpayer funded.

    So, any fair assessment of China has to include the many schemes that were run by Wall Street predators, as well as games played by Chinese manipulators.

    False pride......

    “..The U.S. and the West transferred their knowledge base as patrimony to China, especially starting in the mid to early 90′s….”

    Why don’t u give me a list of TOT from US to China since the 90s?

    As I said, I acknowledge China did import important steel making tech from Japan and before that China managed to make mig-15, an early 50s vintage fighter, during the late 50s. Even with the later Russia-china enmity during the 60s and 70s, Chinese have been grateful to Russian help then.

    “False Pride”?
    I’m afraid it’s your misplaced pride. The relocation of labour-intensive manufacture did something good for China in the form of providing employment to rural migrants and helped china’s urbanization. The yanks have been VERY stringent in TOT to China.

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  • Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver
    I'm not attacking Ron. I like Ron, I think he's great. I've been a fan of this site since its inception. But I am mystified by the inclusion in it of people like Michael Hudson and James Petras, whose views on finance and capitalism are inimical to Ron's own. I think there is a real risk of conflating the racial, sexual and cultural realism that is this site's drawcard with the leftwing idiocies spouted by the likes of Hudson, Petras, et al. And yes, deep down, some dark, suspicious side of me does wonder whether Ron isn't attempting that conflation on purpose. I sure as hell hope not.

    So basically, damned if you do, damned if you don’t. If a Jew provides an uncensored platform for people to express their views, and left leaning views happen to appear, it’s a scheme to bundle radical leftism together with with the most appealing elements of rightism. On the other hand, if a Jew censors certain views, it’s because he’s concealing ideas that would result in his demise. You people are deranged.

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  • @Erebus

    why the focus in just those 3 years?
     
    For the simple reason that I wanted to steer well clear of the GFC that became visible in late 2006. The drop continues, as you know. It's bouncing back up now, as China becomes more expensive.
    Anyway, look at the hinge point in the graph below. The hinge point where US Mfg Employment falls off the table coincides with China's accession to the WTO, and gaining MFN status. China demanded and got not only MFN, but access to the US' automotive OEM market where the big numbers are.

    Just look at where the alternator, brake pads/rotors, drive components, alloy wheels, etc etc in a <5 yr old "American" car come from. Losing the stuffed toys, toasters and kettles to Chinese manufacturing is a very small part of what happened, and in any case the latter happened long before 2001.

    http://static.cdn-seekingalpha.com/uploads/2009/12/23/saupload_mfg4.jpg

    employment have nothing to do with mfg capacity/output. if you were talking about employment, I would have agreed with you and this entire comment chain would never have happened. but if employment was the main issue, cars would not be here, switch board girls would still be a thing. in the next 2-3 decades, about 30-45% of the jobs would be automated. you can’t fight it, be prepare for it.

    1987 – 2017
    17.5 million workers down to 12.4m
    mfg output was 69 and went up to 129 (using 2009 as 100)

    this is 100% tech and efficiency. output per worker went up by about 250% there is really no need to use china for scapegoating.

    this is 2016 data

    Last year, U.S. manufacturers made about $5.4 trillion worth of goods and products (in constant 2009 dollars), according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis. The biggest categories were food, beverages and tobacco products ($817 billion), chemical products ($752 billion) and motor vehicles and parts ($670 billion).

    After adjusting for inflation, manufacturing output in the first quarter of this year was more than 80% above its level 30 years ago, according to BLS data. But while U.S. manufacturing output has increased in absolute terms, it still represents a smaller share of the economy than it used to: Manufacturing accounted for about 23% of gross output in 1997 (the first year for which such data are available) but just 18.5% last year.

    not bad at all. all the china scare is just illogical. it is the same as the china holding us debt scare, completely overblown and fear mongering, since us citizens owns most of the national debt.

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    • Replies: @Erebus
    I understand and even agree with what you've said. Now let me explain how you can have higher Manufacturing Output numbers, while making less stuff. IOW, the data obscures what's really going on. I'll explain it by way of a simplified example....

    Say I have a factory employing 100 people making washing machines. It's the only manufacturing being done in the country, I am my vendors' only customer, and I in turn have only one customer....

    - I buy a motor, pulleys, and belts from a local motor mfr employing 25 people.
    - I buy a control panel & wiring harness from a local electronics mfr employing 25 people.
    - I buy castings from a local casting house employing 25 people.
    - I buy all the plastic injection parts from a local injection house employing 25 people.
    - I make all the steel parts - panels, tub, brackets etc - in-house, to which I've assigned 75 people.
    - the remaining 25 people screw all those bits together to make 10,000 washing machines/yr which I sell for $100ea to Walmart (who else?). Manufacturing Output = $1M.

    In 2001, China joins the WTO, and I change my business model...
    - I buy a motor, pulleys, and belts from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy a control panel & wiring harness from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy castings from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy my plastic parts from China, and my vendor closes.
    - I buy all the steel parts - panels, tub, brackets etc - from China, and I let those 75 people go.
    - the remaining 25 people + 2 new robots (5 people don't get hired) continue to screw all those bits together to now make 12,000 washing machines/yr which I now sell for $90ea to Walmart. Manufacturing Output = $1.08M.

    The St. Louis Fed's FRED chart records the increase: up 8%. Wall St and astute observers rejoice. However, please note that the only number that's counted in "Manufacturing Output" is the last number in the chain, namely my sales.

    You see, materials and components are Industrial Inputs, and are subsumed in the final sale wherever they came from. To avoid double counting (effectively being valued twice or more on their way to Walmart) my vendors' outputs, and their vendors' outputs are subsumed in my top line sales number, and that is so whether I sourced them locally, or offshore.

    In our little scenario 175 people lost their jobs, 4 companies closed (plus most of mine), the country doesn't make motors, plastic & steel parts, etc anymore, but the Fed's charts show manufacturing output went up. Put another way, “making things" collapsed, but Manufacturing went up. I always thought manufacturing and "making things" were equivalent, but nowadays apparently not.

    Anyway, that's how the US lost millions of mfg jobs and that's why people say that US mfg is dying. All those things don't get made, but the number goes up. The robots are a very small piece of the puzzle.

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  • @Sergey Krieger
    Getting rid of Chinese hieroglyphs would be very difficult considering vast number of dialects there with the only way to understand each other is via all of the population speaking Potonghua or said Chinese characters. For me once was much easier to read in characters than in pinying. I had huge problem in the beginning to understand even the closest to dongbei dialect that of Sichuan. Guangdonghua was like another language. It would be interesting to read your opinion about Potonghua impacting China further development even in short form.

    From what I’ve heard, about 1B Chinese speak Pudonghua (Mandarin). That is old info, so I’m guessing that number is up a lot as it is now taught in all schools and all have access. Those that were stuck in one of the local dialects/local languages were probably also semi-literate, at best, so having characters didn’t help them much. In any case, different Pinyins can be generated for the different dialects just as the Taiwanese did for Taiwan, and Hong Kong did for Cantonese (Guangdonghua).

    At the end of the day, the reality is that Chinese children learn their ABCs & Pinyin first. Whenever I’ve asked why they go on to characters I’ve been told “Tradition”. I read that as a euphemism for “I have no idea”, which puts them in the same boat with me.

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    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    8I have no knowledge about Vietnam other that as you say they speak another tonal language. But is there dialects in Vietnam that are as different from each other like those in China? It was long time ago but even in Chongqing where I lived locals outside oh our university mostly used Sichuan Hua dialect which while the closest to Potong Hua still presented problems in u understanding and that would include using different words altogether or sounds sunstitution. Saying si instead of shi and so forth. Now there is a lot of other dialects in China which cannot be understood by Potong Hua speakers which is basically north eastern dialect of dong bei. I am not sure how situation with Potong Hua spread and use in China across all provinces. Another would have been psychological aspect. Vietnam was willing to go with reform as Chinese characters were foreign for Vietnam and history between the two is not exactly warm and fuzzy. For China their characters system is indigenous and part of their history for millennia hence psychological cultural attachment and tradition. I also read that studying Chinese characters was actually improving math comprehension. So, it would be interesting if you could expand on your theory I find it very interesting. I do remember Anatoly Karlin touched on the subject once but it was more about difficulties of attaining and mantaining high literacy rates for chinese compared with europeans while you are coming from very different angle.
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  • @Lin
    " Chinese success is mostly West made as without massive Western investments and outright transfer of manufacturing base from USA and other countries China would not have chance to rise in such manner.."
    That's simply untrue. Just tell me how much western investment on labour intensive manufacture in china compared to internal Chinese investment?
    Do you have any idea how much does it cost to build an integrated steel plant(I mean together with the rolling mill, mines and rail transport set up) of 1 million ton/yr capacity or a coal or gas fired 1 million KW electric power plant? The figures I got are 1 -2 $billion. In case you aren't aware Chinese steel capacity is something between 800 million to 1 billion ton, about 50% of the world's total
    A nation like China doesn't grow economically by making shirts or toys for the yanks. However, here I must state that china did import(and pay for)continuous steel casting tech from japan.

    That Chinese economical success is 'mostly West made' is simply untrue

    Lin, The U.S. and the West transferred their knowledge base as patrimony to China, especially starting in the mid to early 90′s.

    Clinton’s MFN status for China came soon after China swept communist era debt off the ledger. Then Wall Street starting Green Mailing American Captains of Industry. This forced American industry to leave the country, to then get wage arbitrage.

    Entire factories and 100′s of years of know how was sold cheaply to make wage arbitrage today. This short circuited the normal investment, equity, more investment cycle in the West. It also screwed the future by giving away know -how cheaply.

    At night, Chinese would transfer knowledge from Western factories to copy cat Chinese factories.

    China state banks also manipulated the Yuan Dollar ratio to keep dollar exchange rate high. This was done by buying TBills, rather than goods from American Mainstreet. So, recycled Chinese dollars, would then spin back out to buy more Chinese goods.

    Chinese inflows of dollars into the U.S. also did skiff and skim. Skiff was bribe money paid to dock workers. Retail got skim to place Chinese goods on American store shelves.

    China also gave out Yuan loans for American target industry, even going to trade fairs and the like. This then attracted American genius to then work for China. The American genius was taxpayer funded.

    So, any fair assessment of China has to include the many schemes that were run by Wall Street predators, as well as games played by Chinese manipulators.

    False pride……

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    • Replies: @Lin
    "..The U.S. and the West transferred their knowledge base as patrimony to China, especially starting in the mid to early 90′s...."

    Why don't u give me a list of TOT from US to China since the 90s?

    As I said, I acknowledge China did import important steel making tech from Japan and before that China managed to make mig-15, an early 50s vintage fighter, during the late 50s. Even with the later Russia-china enmity during the 60s and 70s, Chinese have been grateful to Russian help then.

    "False Pride"?
    I'm afraid it's your misplaced pride. The relocation of labour-intensive manufacture did something good for China in the form of providing employment to rural migrants and helped china's urbanization. The yanks have been VERY stringent in TOT to China.
    , @PandaAtWar
    ...At night, Chinese would transfer knowledge from Western factories to copy cat Chinese factories...

    hahaha...thanks for the chuckle!

    The evil Chinese must have done that at night in full acknowledgement that they're dealing with a bunch of big nose retards, right?
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  • @Seamus Padraig
    While you're over there on your ranch having a whale of a good time, your country is being rapidly outstripped by China. They are now not only our largest upstream provider, and not only our largest creditor, but they are also now the world's largest economy by Purchasing-Power Parity, and soon they'll be the largest economy by every measure.

    But go ahead and kick back. Have a beer on me!

    For the sake of argument, let’s buy the premise of the article. China is gonna be awesome. Might even be true, America is screwing up on a number of fronts as pointed out in the comments.

    Question for the informed, How much personal freedom does the average Chinese citizen have? Can they own guns? Corruption at a local level have impact? Career and education freedom? Are there practical choices about where to live and lifestyle? Homeschool OK? You can keep your doctor? Really, I may be making some assumptions, should I move to China?

    I only would make the point, if a government doesn’t serve the liberty of its citizens (a somewhat American idea I know) maybe I don’t care how many pyramids it builds.

    And another thing Seamus, is it a competition, per se? Should I as an average citizen be concerned about GDP comparisons, trade numbers, central bank measures. Sucks for Costa Rica.

    I for one would be happy if the Chinese invent some stuff. Maybe we could steal their innovations for once. (yeah gunpowder whatever).

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  • @Che Guava
    I am good at karaoke, Japanese and English.

    Comparing spark plugs and axial fans to fracking is imbecilic.


    You must think you are a smart guy. If only you were king...
     
    Not at all, but am not stupid, unlike you. Throw a base insult, expect the same back.

    Mid-scale earthquakes from 'fracking' are well documented, not just in USA. Poisoning of aquifers is the obvious result, also well documented. Poor energy return in terms of input vs. output, simple fact.

    Whether I am a 'guy' is another matter, but you are getting that wrong, too.

    As a productive suggestion on the general theme, where, sorry, unlike you, I do have much technological knowledge and the ability to think as a graduate engineer, before and outside the horrifying US courses of now, fuel cells seem to hold promise for some roles, are in application at many sites in Japan.

    An engineer, great. Fixing engineer screwups is speciality of mine.

    You overstate the problems with fracking because your preference is that fossil fuels need to be phased out.

    While you are ultimately likely right about that, I think what you don’t understand is as follows.

    Wealth and dynamic economies are needed to provide the innovation and social dynamism to fix these kind of problems. Poor places where people just survive are the worst for environmental conditions. Rich places where technological progress may happen will provide the solutions to perhaps enable us to survive. In addition, rich places have low birth rates.

    I believe if you people hinder the oil economy, a very important facet of everyone’s well being and oil is not to be understated in that regard, then you will undercut the very mechanism (wealth and prosperity) which will ultimately solve the very problem you claim to be concerned about.

    The disconnect we probably have, as is the disconnect in the article above, is that foolish people believe economic and technological progress can continue under socialism and central planning, be it for environmental purposes or whatever. This is your mistake.

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    • Replies: @Che Guava
    Not my mistake,

    Your misinterpretation.

    In China, graduate engineers have been at the top of the polity since Deng. They are seeming to do a relatively good job.

    In Sth. Korea and Japan, they (we) are controlling the tech. companies, except Sony, thanks to its unwise investments in Hollywood many years ago.

    In the USA, accountants and lawyers run the companies. Lawyers and graauates of moronic 'degrees ' increasingly are runnimg the place.
    , @Joe Wong
    You are an engineer? It seems you make decision based on ideology and bigotry instead of data and logic, with engineers like you no wonder manufacturing in the USA going down the tube. Perhaps you need to pray to Milton Friedman before fixing engineer screwups.
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  • @Astuteobservor II
    why the focus in just those 3 years? shouldn't we look at the complete picture? such narrow focus eschews the result. and my google fu is still strong as ever.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/25/most-americans-unaware-that-as-u-s-manufacturing-jobs-have-disappeared-output-has-grown/

    american mfg is completely fine. china is just a scapegoat. also a great talking point for politicians during elections. and the myth is born.

    why the focus in just those 3 years?

    For the simple reason that I wanted to steer well clear of the GFC that became visible in late 2006. The drop continues, as you know. It’s bouncing back up now, as China becomes more expensive.
    Anyway, look at the hinge point in the graph below. The hinge point where US Mfg Employment falls off the table coincides with China’s accession to the WTO, and gaining MFN status. China demanded and got not only MFN, but access to the US’ automotive OEM market where the big numbers are.

    Just look at where the alternator, brake pads/rotors, drive components, alloy wheels, etc etc in a <5 yr old "American" car come from. Losing the stuffed toys, toasters and kettles to Chinese manufacturing is a very small part of what happened, and in any case the latter happened long before 2001.

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    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    employment have nothing to do with mfg capacity/output. if you were talking about employment, I would have agreed with you and this entire comment chain would never have happened. but if employment was the main issue, cars would not be here, switch board girls would still be a thing. in the next 2-3 decades, about 30-45% of the jobs would be automated. you can't fight it, be prepare for it.

    1987 - 2017
    17.5 million workers down to 12.4m
    mfg output was 69 and went up to 129 (using 2009 as 100)

    this is 100% tech and efficiency. output per worker went up by about 250% there is really no need to use china for scapegoating.

    this is 2016 data

    Last year, U.S. manufacturers made about $5.4 trillion worth of goods and products (in constant 2009 dollars), according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis. The biggest categories were food, beverages and tobacco products ($817 billion), chemical products ($752 billion) and motor vehicles and parts ($670 billion).
     

    After adjusting for inflation, manufacturing output in the first quarter of this year was more than 80% above its level 30 years ago, according to BLS data. But while U.S. manufacturing output has increased in absolute terms, it still represents a smaller share of the economy than it used to: Manufacturing accounted for about 23% of gross output in 1997 (the first year for which such data are available) but just 18.5% last year.
     
    not bad at all. all the china scare is just illogical. it is the same as the china holding us debt scare, completely overblown and fear mongering, since us citizens owns most of the national debt.
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  • @Sergey Krieger
    The structure of Chinese spoken language and tones that are used makes use of characters required. We were discussing this back in 1986 at classrooms. Despite all efforts pingying cannot be substitute for characters. We studied simplified characters but later when we got to wen yan standard characters knowledge was required with ability to read each character. Yes, one who knows characters well can read Confucius in wen yan. Chinese stuck with their language, hence this is objective thing and if your theory is right not sure what solution would be. But you pretty much summarized everything nicely about things being about same over time in China.

    The structure of Chinese spoken language and tones that are used makes use of characters required.

    I’ve heard this argument many times, and I can’t for the life me understand it. Pinyin incorporates the 4 tones with no difficulty, and I can type English into my translator program and out comes both characters and Pinyin simultaneously. True, I’m not sure if they correspond accurately, but I have to assume that they can be corrected if not.

    The Vietnamese, with 6+ tones went wholly to their version of Pinyin without ado, and the old characters are now nowhere to be found across what I’ve seen of Vietnam

    I don’t get it. Maybe you’d kindly explicate that a little more.

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