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 All Comments / By Gary Corseri
    (Conducted via emails by Mohammad Homaeefar (MH) at Muslimpress.com) Muslim Press has conducted an interview with poet, writer, and columnist Gary Corseri to discuss the foreign policy of the United States. Here’s the full text of this interview: MP: Thank you for agreeing to give us an interview Mr. Corseri. Gary Corseri: Thank you for...
  • Rehmat and Charles Orloski,

    I’m much obliged for your informative, excellent comments above.

    I was very happy to be contacted initially by Mohammad Homaeefar to do this interview. I know that many Americans, who do not advance themselves beyond the mass-media memes and myths, have little understanding, and very biased views, of Iran–its people and its history. So, I was glad to have an opportunity to showcase the work of a principled Iranian journalist, working at a first-rate website there. I hoped that a discussion between Mohammad and me might “springboard” into deeper inquiries and more encompassing perspectives. My thanks to the Unz Review and its thoughtful readers for fulfilling that hope.

    The above discussion of the 1988 “downing of Iranian passenger Flight 655… destroyed in air by two SM-2MR deadly missiles fired from the USS Vincennes – killing all 290 on board including 66 children and 16 crew…” merits our closest scrutiny. In America’s media-education-culture complex, few people get beyond the memes and myths. Few know anything about wretched Anglo-American meddling in Iran in the 20th Century, the CIA overthrow of President Mossadegh in 1952, US support for the dictatorial “Shah,” the legitimate Iranian “anti-Americanism” that led to the “hostage crisis” of the 1970s, the background and horrors of the Iran-Iraq war, continued US and Israeli meddling, etc. If a couple of windows of inquiry have been opened, let us now hope for more light, better air and deeper understanding.

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  • Dear Rehmat:

    Looks like you might have missed my initial comment speculating upon Saddam’s “Judas Goat” role in the killing of his “beloved” country, Iraq?

    Otherwise thanks for the depressing information on Commander Lustig & Captain Rogers, the decorated officers of the Vincennes. I wonder if the Israeli pilots who attacked the USS Liberty & took American sailor lives were secretly commended for their action “in the line of duty”? Thank you very much.

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  • @Chuck Orloski
    Rehmat:

    Too much real life going on in N.E. Pennsylvania, & I missed making a major point about Saddam's anti-rule of Iraq.

    Added to his "Judas Goat" credentials is the terrible 10-year war with the Islamic Republic of Iran. This quarrel was quite pitiful to even talk about, and The Reagan administration was militarily supporting both sides.

    Again, & although he's widely considered DEAD and a major supporter of Palestinian suicide bombers, I do not believe Americans have heard "The Rest of the Saddam Story. " (The late- Andy Rooney used to say the latter phrase on TV's "60 Minutes") Thank you!

    Correction dear …..

    The Western-Iraq invasion of Islamic Republic lasted for eight years. When Iran was winning the war finally, America killed 290 civilian in air to force Tehran to accept a ceasefire.

    On July 3, 1988, Iranian passenger Flight 655 was destroyed in air by two SM-2MR deadly missiles fired from the USS Vincennes – killing all 290 on board including 66 children and 16 crew.

    Commanded by Captain William C. Rogers III, who under directions from the Pentagon, committed this terrorist attack to force Tehran to accept a ceasefire with Saddam Hussein’s forces which were losing the 8-year US-Israel proxy war against the newly established Islamic Republic.

    As usual, Washington tried to whitewash its crimes against Iran. The Hollywood actor in the White House, Ronald Reagan issued a statement calling the incident “a terrible human tragedy”, but justified the state terrorism “a proper defense action by the USS Vincennes” after the “aircraft failed to heed repeated warnings”. Flight 655 was shot while flying over international waters.

    Admiral William J. Crowe, the CJCS, added another lie in support of president Reagan’s story. He claimed that Rogers III mistook the Iranian aircraft (A-300 Airbus) to be Iranian Air Force F-14 which was going to attack USS Vincennes. Looking at the pictures of both F-14 and A-300 at the top of this post show that these anti-Iran Zionists were lying from both sides of their mouths.

    The record shows that the decision to fire was taken more or less calmly and deliberately on the basis of personal advice passed from junior officers to the senior AAWC, and from the AAWC to the CO–in the face of a stream of contrary evidence from the electronics aboard.

    While issuing notes of regret over the loss of human life, the US government has, to date, neither admitted any wrongdoing or responsibility in this tragedy, nor apologized, but continues to blame Iranian hostile actions for the incident. The men of the Vincennes were all awarded combat-action ribbons. Commander Lustig, the air-warfare coordinator, even won the navy’s Commendation Medal for “heroic achievement”, his “ability to maintain his poise and confidence under fire” having enabled him to “quickly and precisely complete the firing procedure.” According to a 23 April 1990 article printed in The Washington Post, the Legion of Merit was presented to Captain Rogers and Lieutenant Commander Lustig for their performance in the Persian Gulf on 3 July 1988. The citations did not mention the downing of the Iran Air flight at all.

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/07/03/us-murder-of-290-civilians-on-iran-flight-655/

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  • “General Norman Schwarzkopf’s “cake-walk” in Iraq had metamorphosed into chaos throughout the Middle East.”

    Could you have meant General Tommy Franks? Schwarzkopf was the general for the 1991 war when Iraq invaded Kuwait. He retired shortly after that 1st Gulf war. His objective (to liberate Kuwait) was quick and was sort of a cakewalk. And then Bush I wisely said that was it, now its time to leave. Or did you mean that it all kind of began back then?

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  • Rehmat:

    Too much real life going on in N.E. Pennsylvania, & I missed making a major point about Saddam’s anti-rule of Iraq.

    Added to his “Judas Goat” credentials is the terrible 10-year war with the Islamic Republic of Iran. This quarrel was quite pitiful to even talk about, and The Reagan administration was militarily supporting both sides.

    Again, & although he’s widely considered DEAD and a major supporter of Palestinian suicide bombers, I do not believe Americans have heard “The Rest of the Saddam Story. ” (The late- Andy Rooney used to say the latter phrase on TV’s “60 Minutes”) Thank you!

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    • Replies: @Rehmat
    Correction dear .....

    The Western-Iraq invasion of Islamic Republic lasted for eight years. When Iran was winning the war finally, America killed 290 civilian in air to force Tehran to accept a ceasefire.

    On July 3, 1988, Iranian passenger Flight 655 was destroyed in air by two SM-2MR deadly missiles fired from the USS Vincennes – killing all 290 on board including 66 children and 16 crew.

    Commanded by Captain William C. Rogers III, who under directions from the Pentagon, committed this terrorist attack to force Tehran to accept a ceasefire with Saddam Hussein’s forces which were losing the 8-year US-Israel proxy war against the newly established Islamic Republic.

    As usual, Washington tried to whitewash its crimes against Iran. The Hollywood actor in the White House, Ronald Reagan issued a statement calling the incident “a terrible human tragedy”, but justified the state terrorism “a proper defense action by the USS Vincennes” after the “aircraft failed to heed repeated warnings”. Flight 655 was shot while flying over international waters.

    Admiral William J. Crowe, the CJCS, added another lie in support of president Reagan’s story. He claimed that Rogers III mistook the Iranian aircraft (A-300 Airbus) to be Iranian Air Force F-14 which was going to attack USS Vincennes. Looking at the pictures of both F-14 and A-300 at the top of this post show that these anti-Iran Zionists were lying from both sides of their mouths.

    The record shows that the decision to fire was taken more or less calmly and deliberately on the basis of personal advice passed from junior officers to the senior AAWC, and from the AAWC to the CO–in the face of a stream of contrary evidence from the electronics aboard.

    While issuing notes of regret over the loss of human life, the US government has, to date, neither admitted any wrongdoing or responsibility in this tragedy, nor apologized, but continues to blame Iranian hostile actions for the incident. The men of the Vincennes were all awarded combat-action ribbons. Commander Lustig, the air-warfare coordinator, even won the navy’s Commendation Medal for “heroic achievement”, his “ability to maintain his poise and confidence under fire” having enabled him to “quickly and precisely complete the firing procedure.” According to a 23 April 1990 article printed in The Washington Post, the Legion of Merit was presented to Captain Rogers and Lieutenant Commander Lustig for their performance in the Persian Gulf on 3 July 1988. The citations did not mention the downing of the Iran Air flight at all.

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/07/03/us-murder-of-290-civilians-on-iran-flight-655/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Rehmat:

    I have a different opinion on the career of Saddam Hussein. A former-CIA agent, he helped harm Iraq more than anyone in the nation’s rather short history.

    Saddam invaded Kuwait with Ambassador Glaspie’s “go ahead,” and as Pat Buchanan stated, his armies ended up in a “turkey shoot” and were immediately buried by US bulldozers.

    Then the 10-years of western economic sanctions on Iraq, and according to the UN, the deaths of 500,000 children!

    Then of course the most heavily advertised war in history, Shock & Awe, April 2003! Deceptive words by US leaders on Hussein’s W.M.D.s scared the hell out of the West and once again, the Iraqi people mightily suffered and a brutal civil war started.

    As advertised by the MSM, Saddam was a very evil man and he sat at the top of W. Bush’s Axis of Evil. Consider for a moment, why would such a wealthy and allegedly evil guy try to hang out (underground) in Iraq? Given CIA training and about 20-”doubles,” one would think he’d quickly scram away (in disguise) & seek asylum in maybe at Crawford Ranch or the Catskills?

    Lastly, I do not believe it was actually Saddam Hussein who innocent US soldiers found down in a hole. So wacky was his trial & hanging and even Pope Benedict issued a protest against the televised barbarity.

    As great map redrawing is likely underway in the Middle East, “The “Hidden Hand” is probably occupied by looking at particular resumes, the ones which best reflect the dictatorial services once performed by Saddam Hussein. Thank you for listening , Rehmat!

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  • @Rehmat
    I don't understand why the so-called 'Islam Press' has to interview Gary Corseri who doesn't know or speak about Islam or why Muslims have been replace into Jews in the West in the past?

    Gary Corseri is wrong about Saddam Hussein. He was put in power by the Anglo-American colonial powers to curb the emerging political Islam in the Arab world. They used him to destroy Islamic regime in Iran. After 8-year war when he failed to do so, Saddam became a liability to the western interests in the region. Saddam never asked financial aid from Washington as he was sitting on one of the richest economy in the region. He never threatened Israel or United States interests in the region.

    Osama Bin Laden, like Saddam Hussein was an American asset. He and his organization, the so-called 'al-Qaeda' was blamed for "masterminding" September 11, 2001 attack were used as smokescreen to protect the real criminals - American Zionists and Israeli Mossad.

    Ray McGovern is right about the American traitors with the US-Israel dual citizen, who are mostly Zionist Jews. Therefore, the right term for them is 'Zion-Conservatives.

    YES, Jill Stein is not a 'con-Zionist Jew' like Bernie Sanders and she may try to change America's foreign policy towards the Muslim world - but she has a 'zero chance' to enter the White House considering Israel being the KING-MAKER.

    If the Muslim Press really wants to know about how an American feels - it should interview 'Mint Press' founder Mnar Muhawesh, or far better professor Deepa Kumar....

    https://rehmat1.com/2013/09/25/deepa-kumar-islamophobia-for-dummies/

    I see that Rose Wilder Lane was mentioned in the link. I’ve read a lot of her , and consider her a genius, but I was unaware of her views on Islam. I find that very interesting and will have to look it up.

    Thanks for the info!!

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  • By the time Obama appeared magically on the scene (“hand-picked” by the “invisible hand”?)

    Robert Rubin?

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  • @WorkingClass
    Bernie was not a stalking horse for Hillary although he was used that way. He made an honest run at the presidency from within the system. Personally, I think the nomination was stolen from him. But it was known that Bernie would endorse Hillary when it was over. If he had been the real deal he would have gone Green (Jill Stein said she would step aside) and destroyed Hillary's candidacy.

    I served in the U.S. Army under Johnson and briefly under Nixon. Nothing changed. I learned at an early age that the D's and R's were on the same page. I support Donald Trump. He is neither D nor R. Neither liberal nor conservative. Trump is a populist which is exactly what we need right now. Yes, Trump speaks of restricting Muslim immigration. But what Hillary wants to do is continue killing Muslims in the MENA. It should be an easy choice for Muslims.

    Ideologically I am obsolete. I identify with Ugene Debs and the workers of the world. But I am also an American and alarmed by the rise of the Police State and loss of the Bill of Rights. Hillary is an imperialist and a war monger in the mold of her three immediate predecessors. She will be a disaster for the U.S. and the planet earth. Her only real opposition is Donald Trump. It should be an easy choice for Americans.

    We come from the same workshop place but end up with different views; But the powers that be and were are such that we’re both on the same side now. Bernie may be a bit old now. But he’s charismatic and can raise money. Maybe his better move would be to forget Washington and start an independent colony of believers, i.e. just do it. He could opt out of the government rule –we’ve done it here in Colorado with the FDA and drug regulation. Bernie could just do what he has in mind, like the Quakers and other such idealistic producers. It wouldn’t have to be utopian to be an improvement on the last 50 years.

    Even when America was productive you never found an actual product that said Produced in Washington D. C.

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  • @Jacques Sheete

    I am not an educated man.
     
    Actually, your comments indicate otherwise!

    Here's an example:

    I learned at an early age that the D’s and R’s were on the same page.

     

    I know plenty of lawyers, businessmen, teachers, nurses and physicians who, despite their schooling, have yet to figure that out. They're typically highly trained, but very poorly educated. What's really sad is that they think because they're "intelligent" and well schooled they've got a huge handle on things outside their fields. However, they are clueless as to their ignorance even when it's pointed out to them.

    Nock elaborates on the concept, and Mises is a great resource for educating oneself:

    https://mises.org/library/theory-education-united-states-0

    The American Mercury is another particularly great source of info. (Thank you Mr. Unz!)

    http://www.unz.org/Pub/AmMercury/

    Thank you for the kind words and the links. I do learn from strangers in comm boxes.

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  • @Gary Corseri
    Thank you for your comments, Khan and Rehmat. Frankly, Khan, I don't think anyone could ever determine "which president is a bigger war criminal and genocidal mass murderer of millions..." Such an analysis would have to examine the origins and execution of every war America has fought--including, alas, our "Civil War," in which 600,000 Americans died (the equivalent of 6 million today!). Also, as I state in my last answer "perhaps he had no choice! We have no idea what kind of pressures are brought upon these candidates behind the scenes. This is hardly a “do-good,” “open” society. We live in an Age of Distractions–false premises, false promises." That's specifically about our present crop of candidates. What about our presidents? Do you see the image above the article--the marionettes? I think that's the way our "System" has worked from Washington's time onward. Lincoln, himself, bemoaned the rising power of corporations. Wilson wrote about hidden forces. As I suggest in the interview, our presidents are "suits," dressing according to the fashion of the times. We have no idea how they are "hemmed in" once in office--what actual dangers they face to their persons and to their families. Need I mention JFK's bitter relations with our CIA and FBI?

    Rehmat, I'm not sure why Muslim Press chose to interview me! The journalist who contacted me wrote that he had read some of my articles and poems here and there and liked them a lot. Perhaps they wanted a different point of view--not specifically from a political analyst, a "political scientist," but from someone who has tried in various ways, for decades, to understand this "Age of Distractions," the passing show.... I agree with you that Saddam Hussein was "put in power...to curb the emerging political Islam in the Arab world," though I suspect it was mostly recrudescent Iranian power about which the Anglo-American-Zionist Cartel was most concerned! After the terrible 8-year war between Iraq and Iran (comparable in various ways to the trench warfare and massive human, "over the hill" charges of WWI!) in which Iran lost 1 million lives, "victorious" Iraq, while still rich, had its resources severely depleted. No doubt Saddam's army was restive, and he himself felt threatened. The "Cartel" and others restricted the flow of oil from Iraq and then gave Saddam a "green light" to invade Kuwait (in order to recoup some capital, pay off his troops, etc.) Our ambassador to Iraq--April Glasspie, if I recall her name--said "America does not get involved in disputes between Arab neighbors." That, of course, was B.S. Saddam was our patsy--and he paid the price with a necktie made of rope.

    ” I agree with you that Saddam Hussein was “put in power…to curb the emerging political Islam in the Arab world,” though I suspect it was mostly recrudescent Iranian power about which the Anglo-American-Zionist Cartel was most concerned!”

    The “recrudescent” Iranian power that both the West and USSR were worried about was Iran under the late Shah. Their expressions of worry started in early 70s with hysterical propaganda as fiction depicting Imperial Iranian Amry taking over the “Gulf” states. The Ayatollah Khomeini flew on a fucking AirFrance liner to Iran, for God’s sake. Get a clue.

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  • Rehmat:

    I always learn from your clear spoken comments, but with The Muslim Press interview selection of Gary Corseri, they made a very wise one. By reading your insightful & brave comments, above, perhaps either Mnar Muhawesh or you might get a Muslim Press muezzin call for an interview? Either that or a Neo-Chekist knock-on-the-door?

    Without a New England accent, Gary Corseri spoke (like JFK once did) about “The Hidden Hand,” and insinuated that Obama did not simply “magically happen.” Prior to the end of W. Bush’s two scary terms as POTUS, the Mainstream Media pounded into American shock-treated heads the fact that “The Decider’s” popularity rating had sunk to < 40%.

    "The Hidden Hand" intelligently realized that an educated, well-spoken (black) Democrat would perform totally better than either "Bomb-Bomb-Iran McCain" or Mormon Romney to carry on what Mr. Corseri wisely called, "The War of Terror."

    Maybe a percentage of the Muslim Press and its readership has yet to learn that millions of common Americans know that Obama did not just "magically happen"? (America will never see a credible "Big 6" opinion poll taken on such an important issue as the total demo of US presidential elections, eh Rehmat?)

    I must go grocery shopping now, (my wife Carol is on my ass to do so), and I'll end by sharing the You Tube video, (below). Other readers can ponder Obama's usefulness to "The Hidden hand" and Gary Corseri's essential message on how the same "magical" hand manages to balance & control the next 2-POTUS candidate puppets in line.

    Thank you, Gary, Rehmat, and Unz University for all the Continuing Ed.

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  • @WorkingClass

    Do you see the image above the article–the marionettes? I think that’s the way our “System” has worked from Washington’s time onward. Lincoln, himself, bemoaned the rising power of corporations. Wilson wrote about hidden forces. As I suggest in the interview, our presidents are “suits,” dressing according to the fashion of the times.
     
    I am not an educated man. But that doesn't stop me from citing Lincoln and Wilson as the principle enablers of the urge to American imperialism. Yet I know American presidents are overseers and not emperors. Were I to wish upon a star I would wish for a president who would, upon entering the oval office, report back to us and tell us EXACTLY what he finds there.

    I am not an educated man.

    Actually, your comments indicate otherwise!

    Here’s an example:

    I learned at an early age that the D’s and R’s were on the same page.

    I know plenty of lawyers, businessmen, teachers, nurses and physicians who, despite their schooling, have yet to figure that out. They’re typically highly trained, but very poorly educated. What’s really sad is that they think because they’re “intelligent” and well schooled they’ve got a huge handle on things outside their fields. However, they are clueless as to their ignorance even when it’s pointed out to them.

    Nock elaborates on the concept, and Mises is a great resource for educating oneself:

    https://mises.org/library/theory-education-united-states-0

    The American Mercury is another particularly great source of info. (Thank you Mr. Unz!)

    http://www.unz.org/Pub/AmMercury/

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    • Replies: @WorkingClass
    Thank you for the kind words and the links. I do learn from strangers in comm boxes.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Gary Corseri
    Thank you for your comments, Khan and Rehmat. Frankly, Khan, I don't think anyone could ever determine "which president is a bigger war criminal and genocidal mass murderer of millions..." Such an analysis would have to examine the origins and execution of every war America has fought--including, alas, our "Civil War," in which 600,000 Americans died (the equivalent of 6 million today!). Also, as I state in my last answer "perhaps he had no choice! We have no idea what kind of pressures are brought upon these candidates behind the scenes. This is hardly a “do-good,” “open” society. We live in an Age of Distractions–false premises, false promises." That's specifically about our present crop of candidates. What about our presidents? Do you see the image above the article--the marionettes? I think that's the way our "System" has worked from Washington's time onward. Lincoln, himself, bemoaned the rising power of corporations. Wilson wrote about hidden forces. As I suggest in the interview, our presidents are "suits," dressing according to the fashion of the times. We have no idea how they are "hemmed in" once in office--what actual dangers they face to their persons and to their families. Need I mention JFK's bitter relations with our CIA and FBI?

    Rehmat, I'm not sure why Muslim Press chose to interview me! The journalist who contacted me wrote that he had read some of my articles and poems here and there and liked them a lot. Perhaps they wanted a different point of view--not specifically from a political analyst, a "political scientist," but from someone who has tried in various ways, for decades, to understand this "Age of Distractions," the passing show.... I agree with you that Saddam Hussein was "put in power...to curb the emerging political Islam in the Arab world," though I suspect it was mostly recrudescent Iranian power about which the Anglo-American-Zionist Cartel was most concerned! After the terrible 8-year war between Iraq and Iran (comparable in various ways to the trench warfare and massive human, "over the hill" charges of WWI!) in which Iran lost 1 million lives, "victorious" Iraq, while still rich, had its resources severely depleted. No doubt Saddam's army was restive, and he himself felt threatened. The "Cartel" and others restricted the flow of oil from Iraq and then gave Saddam a "green light" to invade Kuwait (in order to recoup some capital, pay off his troops, etc.) Our ambassador to Iraq--April Glasspie, if I recall her name--said "America does not get involved in disputes between Arab neighbors." That, of course, was B.S. Saddam was our patsy--and he paid the price with a necktie made of rope.

    Do you see the image above the article–the marionettes? I think that’s the way our “System” has worked from Washington’s time onward. Lincoln, himself, bemoaned the rising power of corporations. Wilson wrote about hidden forces. As I suggest in the interview, our presidents are “suits,” dressing according to the fashion of the times.

    I am not an educated man. But that doesn’t stop me from citing Lincoln and Wilson as the principle enablers of the urge to American imperialism. Yet I know American presidents are overseers and not emperors. Were I to wish upon a star I would wish for a president who would, upon entering the oval office, report back to us and tell us EXACTLY what he finds there.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete

    I am not an educated man.
     
    Actually, your comments indicate otherwise!

    Here's an example:

    I learned at an early age that the D’s and R’s were on the same page.

     

    I know plenty of lawyers, businessmen, teachers, nurses and physicians who, despite their schooling, have yet to figure that out. They're typically highly trained, but very poorly educated. What's really sad is that they think because they're "intelligent" and well schooled they've got a huge handle on things outside their fields. However, they are clueless as to their ignorance even when it's pointed out to them.

    Nock elaborates on the concept, and Mises is a great resource for educating oneself:

    https://mises.org/library/theory-education-united-states-0

    The American Mercury is another particularly great source of info. (Thank you Mr. Unz!)

    http://www.unz.org/Pub/AmMercury/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Bernie was not a stalking horse for Hillary although he was used that way. He made an honest run at the presidency from within the system. Personally, I think the nomination was stolen from him. But it was known that Bernie would endorse Hillary when it was over. If he had been the real deal he would have gone Green (Jill Stein said she would step aside) and destroyed Hillary’s candidacy.

    I served in the U.S. Army under Johnson and briefly under Nixon. Nothing changed. I learned at an early age that the D’s and R’s were on the same page. I support Donald Trump. He is neither D nor R. Neither liberal nor conservative. Trump is a populist which is exactly what we need right now. Yes, Trump speaks of restricting Muslim immigration. But what Hillary wants to do is continue killing Muslims in the MENA. It should be an easy choice for Muslims.

    Ideologically I am obsolete. I identify with Ugene Debs and the workers of the world. But I am also an American and alarmed by the rise of the Police State and loss of the Bill of Rights. Hillary is an imperialist and a war monger in the mold of her three immediate predecessors. She will be a disaster for the U.S. and the planet earth. Her only real opposition is Donald Trump. It should be an easy choice for Americans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Outwest
    We come from the same workshop place but end up with different views; But the powers that be and were are such that we’re both on the same side now. Bernie may be a bit old now. But he’s charismatic and can raise money. Maybe his better move would be to forget Washington and start an independent colony of believers, i.e. just do it. He could opt out of the government rule –we’ve done it here in Colorado with the FDA and drug regulation. Bernie could just do what he has in mind, like the Quakers and other such idealistic producers. It wouldn’t have to be utopian to be an improvement on the last 50 years.

    Even when America was productive you never found an actual product that said Produced in Washington D. C.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Thank you for your info, Durruti. I’ll look over the flier by day’s end. I’m sure we have various points of agreement…. Will try to get back to you by the end of the long weekend.

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  • Thanks for your fine insights (and Nock’s!), Jacues Sheete.

    I agree that our “Constitution” had serious–let’s say “grave”–origins and auspices from the beginning. While he had no part in the actual “drafting” of the Constitution, I think it’s safe to say Washington was a “presence” in the emerging “Republic” since he had first appeared, in full, resplendent military garb, at one of the early meetings (the first one?) of the Continental Congress. (And he was, of course, one of those “land speculators” Nock mentions.) Lines my mother quoted to me when I was a child (I believe from Sir Walter Scott) may, I believe, be applicable:

    “Oh what a crooked web we weave
    When first we practice to deceive.”

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    • Agree: Jacques Sheete
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Gary Corseri
    Thank you for your comments, Khan and Rehmat. Frankly, Khan, I don't think anyone could ever determine "which president is a bigger war criminal and genocidal mass murderer of millions..." Such an analysis would have to examine the origins and execution of every war America has fought--including, alas, our "Civil War," in which 600,000 Americans died (the equivalent of 6 million today!). Also, as I state in my last answer "perhaps he had no choice! We have no idea what kind of pressures are brought upon these candidates behind the scenes. This is hardly a “do-good,” “open” society. We live in an Age of Distractions–false premises, false promises." That's specifically about our present crop of candidates. What about our presidents? Do you see the image above the article--the marionettes? I think that's the way our "System" has worked from Washington's time onward. Lincoln, himself, bemoaned the rising power of corporations. Wilson wrote about hidden forces. As I suggest in the interview, our presidents are "suits," dressing according to the fashion of the times. We have no idea how they are "hemmed in" once in office--what actual dangers they face to their persons and to their families. Need I mention JFK's bitter relations with our CIA and FBI?

    Rehmat, I'm not sure why Muslim Press chose to interview me! The journalist who contacted me wrote that he had read some of my articles and poems here and there and liked them a lot. Perhaps they wanted a different point of view--not specifically from a political analyst, a "political scientist," but from someone who has tried in various ways, for decades, to understand this "Age of Distractions," the passing show.... I agree with you that Saddam Hussein was "put in power...to curb the emerging political Islam in the Arab world," though I suspect it was mostly recrudescent Iranian power about which the Anglo-American-Zionist Cartel was most concerned! After the terrible 8-year war between Iraq and Iran (comparable in various ways to the trench warfare and massive human, "over the hill" charges of WWI!) in which Iran lost 1 million lives, "victorious" Iraq, while still rich, had its resources severely depleted. No doubt Saddam's army was restive, and he himself felt threatened. The "Cartel" and others restricted the flow of oil from Iraq and then gave Saddam a "green light" to invade Kuwait (in order to recoup some capital, pay off his troops, etc.) Our ambassador to Iraq--April Glasspie, if I recall her name--said "America does not get involved in disputes between Arab neighbors." That, of course, was B.S. Saddam was our patsy--and he paid the price with a necktie made of rope.

    Gari Corseri,

    Nicely stated.

    We have been circulating the enclosed flier and others – similar for years.

    The Coup d’etat of November 22, 1963 was the first modern Arab Spring, and the most successful. It is nice that you have understood that.

    As former President Carter has said, America is no longer a Democracy.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjXgsLK7vDOAhXB4yYKHRM7CK0QFggcMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fmic.com%2Farticles%2F125813%2Fjimmy-carter-tells-oprah-america-is-no-longer-a-democracy-now-an-oligarchy&usg=AFQjCNFQ4DV0IbmHpRuivbQpKzJ90hyWRA&sig2=3s3wS6M2rumOvI9h7E4PkA&bvm=bv.131669213,d.eWE

    Enclosing our Flier for your perusal.

    Durruti, alias Peter J. Antonsen

    [MORE]

    For THE RESTORATION OF THE REPUBLIC

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal… governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles…”

    The above is a portion of the Declaration of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson.

    We submit the following facts to the citizens of the United States.

    The government of the United States has been a Totalitarian Oligarchy since the military financial aristocracy destroyed the Democratic Republic on November 22, 1963, when they assassinated the last democratically elected president, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and overthrew his government. All following governments have been unconstitutional frauds. Attempts by Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King to restore the Republic were interrupted by their murder.

    A subsequent 12 year colonial war against Vietnam, conducted by the murderers of Kennedy, left 2 million dead in a wake of napalm and burning villages.

    In 1965, the U.S. government orchestrated the slaughter of 1 million unarmed Indonesian civilians.

    In the decade that followed the CIA murdered 100,000 Native Americans in Guatemala.

    In the 1970s, the Oligarchy began the destruction and looting of America’s middle class, by encouraging the export of industry and jobs to parts of the world where workers were paid bare subsistence wages. The 2008, Bailout of the Nation’s Oligarchs cost American taxpayers $13trillion. The long decline of the local economy has led to the political decline of our hard working citizens, as well as the decay of cities, towns, and infrastructure, such as education.

    The impoverishment of America’s middle class has undermined the nation’s financial stability. Without a productive foundation, the government has accumulated a huge debt in excess of $19trillion. This debt will have to be paid, or suffered by future generations. Concurrently, the top 1% of the nation’s population has benefited enormously from the discomfiture of the rest. The interest rate has been reduced to 0, thereby slowly robbing millions of depositors of their savings, as their savings cannot stay even with the inflation rate.

    The government spends the declining national wealth on bloody and never ending military adventures, and is or has recently conducted unconstitutional wars against 9 nations. The Oligarchs maintain 700 military bases in 131 countries; they spend as much on military weapons of terror as the rest of the nations of the world combined. Tellingly, more than half the government budget is spent on the military and 16 associated secret agencies.

    The nightmare of a powerful centralized government crushing the rights of the people, so feared by the Founders of the United States, has become a reality. The government of Obama/Biden, as with previous administrations such as Bush/Cheney, and whoever is chosen in November 2016, operates a Gulag of dozens of concentration camps, where prisoners are denied trials, and routinely tortured. The Patriot Act and The National Defense Authorizations Act, enacted by both Democratic and Republican factions of the oligarchy, serve to establish a legal cover for their terror.

    The nation’s media is controlled, and, with the school systems, serve to brainwash the population; the people are intimidated and treated with contempt.

    The United States is No longer Sovereign

    The United States is no longer a sovereign nation. Its government, The Executive, and Congress, is bought, utterly owned and controlled by foreign and domestic wealthy Oligarchs, such as the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, and Duponts, to name only a few of the best known.

    The 2016 Electoral Circus will anoint new actors to occupy the same Unconstitutional Government, with its controlling International Oligarchs. Clinton, Trump, whomever, are willing accomplices for imperialist international murder, and destruction of nations, including ours.

    For Love of Country

    The Restoration of the Republic will be a Revolutionary Act, that will cancel all previous debts owed to that unconstitutional regime and its business supporters. All debts, including Student Debts, will be canceled. Our citizens will begin, anew, with a clean slate.

    As American Founder, Thomas Jefferson wrote, in a letter to James Madison:

    “I set out on this ground, which I suppose to be self evident, ‘that the earth belongs in usufruct to the living’:”

    “Then I say the earth belongs to each of these generations, during it’s course, fully, and in their own right. The 2d. Generation receives it clear of the debts and incumberances of the 1st. The 3d of the 2d. and so on. For if the 1st. Could charge it with a debt, then the earth would belong to the dead and not the living generation.”

    Our Citizens must restore the centrality of the constitution, establishing a less powerful government which will ensure President Franklin Roosevelt’s Four Freedoms, freedom of speech and expression, freedom to worship God in ones own way, freedom from want “which…means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peace time life for its inhabitants…” and freedom from fear “which…means a world-wide reduction of armaments…”

    Once restored: The Constitution will become, once again, the law of the land and of a free people. We will establish a government, hold elections, begin to direct traffic, arrest criminal politicians of the tyrannical oligarchy, and, in short, repair the damage of the previous totalitarian governments.

    For the Democratic Republic!
    Sons and Daughters of Liberty
    [email protected]

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  • I think that’s the way our “System” has worked from Washington’s time onward.

    Actually, our “system” has always worked that way. The anti-federalists were 99.9% correct.

    Nock sums it up well, which is pretty typical of him.:

    The Constitution looked fairly good on paper, but it was not a popular document; people were suspicious of it, and suspicious of the enabling legislation that was being erected upon it. There was some ground for this. The Constitution had been laid down under unacceptable auspices; its history had been that of a coup d’état.

    It had been drafted, in the first place, by men representing special economic interests. Four-fifths of them were public creditors, one-third were land speculators, and one-fifth represented interests in shipping, manufacturing, and merchandising. Most of them were lawyers. Not one of them represented the interest of production — Vilescit origine tali.

    Albert Jay Nock [Excerpted from chapter 5 of Albert Jay Nock's Jefferson, published in 1926]

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  • Thank you for your comments, Khan and Rehmat. Frankly, Khan, I don’t think anyone could ever determine “which president is a bigger war criminal and genocidal mass murderer of millions…” Such an analysis would have to examine the origins and execution of every war America has fought–including, alas, our “Civil War,” in which 600,000 Americans died (the equivalent of 6 million today!). Also, as I state in my last answer “perhaps he had no choice! We have no idea what kind of pressures are brought upon these candidates behind the scenes. This is hardly a “do-good,” “open” society. We live in an Age of Distractions–false premises, false promises.” That’s specifically about our present crop of candidates. What about our presidents? Do you see the image above the article–the marionettes? I think that’s the way our “System” has worked from Washington’s time onward. Lincoln, himself, bemoaned the rising power of corporations. Wilson wrote about hidden forces. As I suggest in the interview, our presidents are “suits,” dressing according to the fashion of the times. We have no idea how they are “hemmed in” once in office–what actual dangers they face to their persons and to their families. Need I mention JFK’s bitter relations with our CIA and FBI?

    Rehmat, I’m not sure why Muslim Press chose to interview me! The journalist who contacted me wrote that he had read some of my articles and poems here and there and liked them a lot. Perhaps they wanted a different point of view–not specifically from a political analyst, a “political scientist,” but from someone who has tried in various ways, for decades, to understand this “Age of Distractions,” the passing show…. I agree with you that Saddam Hussein was “put in power…to curb the emerging political Islam in the Arab world,” though I suspect it was mostly recrudescent Iranian power about which the Anglo-American-Zionist Cartel was most concerned! After the terrible 8-year war between Iraq and Iran (comparable in various ways to the trench warfare and massive human, “over the hill” charges of WWI!) in which Iran lost 1 million lives, “victorious” Iraq, while still rich, had its resources severely depleted. No doubt Saddam’s army was restive, and he himself felt threatened. The “Cartel” and others restricted the flow of oil from Iraq and then gave Saddam a “green light” to invade Kuwait (in order to recoup some capital, pay off his troops, etc.) Our ambassador to Iraq–April Glasspie, if I recall her name–said “America does not get involved in disputes between Arab neighbors.” That, of course, was B.S. Saddam was our patsy–and he paid the price with a necktie made of rope.

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    • Replies: @Durruti
    Gari Corseri,

    Nicely stated.

    We have been circulating the enclosed flier and others - similar for years.

    The Coup d'etat of November 22, 1963 was the first modern Arab Spring, and the most successful. It is nice that you have understood that.

    As former President Carter has said, America is no longer a Democracy.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjXgsLK7vDOAhXB4yYKHRM7CK0QFggcMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fmic.com%2Farticles%2F125813%2Fjimmy-carter-tells-oprah-america-is-no-longer-a-democracy-now-an-oligarchy&usg=AFQjCNFQ4DV0IbmHpRuivbQpKzJ90hyWRA&sig2=3s3wS6M2rumOvI9h7E4PkA&bvm=bv.131669213,d.eWE

    Enclosing our Flier for your perusal.

    Durruti, alias Peter J. Antonsen

    For THE RESTORATION OF THE REPUBLIC

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal… governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles…”

    The above is a portion of the Declaration of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson.

    We submit the following facts to the citizens of the United States.

    The government of the United States has been a Totalitarian Oligarchy since the military financial aristocracy destroyed the Democratic Republic on November 22, 1963, when they assassinated the last democratically elected president, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and overthrew his government. All following governments have been unconstitutional frauds. Attempts by Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King to restore the Republic were interrupted by their murder.

    A subsequent 12 year colonial war against Vietnam, conducted by the murderers of Kennedy, left 2 million dead in a wake of napalm and burning villages.

    In 1965, the U.S. government orchestrated the slaughter of 1 million unarmed Indonesian civilians.

    In the decade that followed the CIA murdered 100,000 Native Americans in Guatemala.

    In the 1970s, the Oligarchy began the destruction and looting of America’s middle class, by encouraging the export of industry and jobs to parts of the world where workers were paid bare subsistence wages. The 2008, Bailout of the Nation’s Oligarchs cost American taxpayers $13trillion. The long decline of the local economy has led to the political decline of our hard working citizens, as well as the decay of cities, towns, and infrastructure, such as education.

    The impoverishment of America’s middle class has undermined the nation’s financial stability. Without a productive foundation, the government has accumulated a huge debt in excess of $19trillion. This debt will have to be paid, or suffered by future generations. Concurrently, the top 1% of the nation’s population has benefited enormously from the discomfiture of the rest. The interest rate has been reduced to 0, thereby slowly robbing millions of depositors of their savings, as their savings cannot stay even with the inflation rate.

    The government spends the declining national wealth on bloody and never ending military adventures, and is or has recently conducted unconstitutional wars against 9 nations. The Oligarchs maintain 700 military bases in 131 countries; they spend as much on military weapons of terror as the rest of the nations of the world combined. Tellingly, more than half the government budget is spent on the military and 16 associated secret agencies.

    The nightmare of a powerful centralized government crushing the rights of the people, so feared by the Founders of the United States, has become a reality. The government of Obama/Biden, as with previous administrations such as Bush/Cheney, and whoever is chosen in November 2016, operates a Gulag of dozens of concentration camps, where prisoners are denied trials, and routinely tortured. The Patriot Act and The National Defense Authorizations Act, enacted by both Democratic and Republican factions of the oligarchy, serve to establish a legal cover for their terror.

    The nation’s media is controlled, and, with the school systems, serve to brainwash the population; the people are intimidated and treated with contempt.

    The United States is No longer Sovereign

    The United States is no longer a sovereign nation. Its government, The Executive, and Congress, is bought, utterly owned and controlled by foreign and domestic wealthy Oligarchs, such as the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, and Duponts, to name only a few of the best known.

    The 2016 Electoral Circus will anoint new actors to occupy the same Unconstitutional Government, with its controlling International Oligarchs. Clinton, Trump, whomever, are willing accomplices for imperialist international murder, and destruction of nations, including ours.

    For Love of Country

    The Restoration of the Republic will be a Revolutionary Act, that will cancel all previous debts owed to that unconstitutional regime and its business supporters. All debts, including Student Debts, will be canceled. Our citizens will begin, anew, with a clean slate.

    As American Founder, Thomas Jefferson wrote, in a letter to James Madison:

    “I set out on this ground, which I suppose to be self evident, ‘that the earth belongs in usufruct to the living’:”

    “Then I say the earth belongs to each of these generations, during it’s course, fully, and in their own right. The 2d. Generation receives it clear of the debts and incumberances of the 1st. The 3d of the 2d. and so on. For if the 1st. Could charge it with a debt, then the earth would belong to the dead and not the living generation.”

    Our Citizens must restore the centrality of the constitution, establishing a less powerful government which will ensure President Franklin Roosevelt’s Four Freedoms, freedom of speech and expression, freedom to worship God in ones own way, freedom from want “which…means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peace time life for its inhabitants…” and freedom from fear “which…means a world-wide reduction of armaments…”

    Once restored: The Constitution will become, once again, the law of the land and of a free people. We will establish a government, hold elections, begin to direct traffic, arrest criminal politicians of the tyrannical oligarchy, and, in short, repair the damage of the previous totalitarian governments.

    For the Democratic Republic!
    Sons and Daughters of Liberty
    [email protected]
    , @WorkingClass

    Do you see the image above the article–the marionettes? I think that’s the way our “System” has worked from Washington’s time onward. Lincoln, himself, bemoaned the rising power of corporations. Wilson wrote about hidden forces. As I suggest in the interview, our presidents are “suits,” dressing according to the fashion of the times.
     
    I am not an educated man. But that doesn't stop me from citing Lincoln and Wilson as the principle enablers of the urge to American imperialism. Yet I know American presidents are overseers and not emperors. Were I to wish upon a star I would wish for a president who would, upon entering the oval office, report back to us and tell us EXACTLY what he finds there.
    , @survey-of-disinfo
    " I agree with you that Saddam Hussein was “put in power…to curb the emerging political Islam in the Arab world,” though I suspect it was mostly recrudescent Iranian power about which the Anglo-American-Zionist Cartel was most concerned!"

    The "recrudescent" Iranian power that both the West and USSR were worried about was Iran under the late Shah. Their expressions of worry started in early 70s with hysterical propaganda as fiction depicting Imperial Iranian Amry taking over the "Gulf" states. The Ayatollah Khomeini flew on a fucking AirFrance liner to Iran, for God's sake. Get a clue.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • There’s never any real contextualization in America! (Our “mainstream media” is mostly a joke, spouting the same-o same-o nonsense about “they hate us for our freedoms!”–as Cowboy Bush put it; and there’s almost no historical context, or if there is, it’s often fallacious.)

    True, and it’s largely due to the brainwashing we ‘Merkins get exposed to in schools with the results often seen in comments sections even here on UR, and here’s evidence for the claim.:

    I am pretty sure my activism cost me a couple of good teaching jobs. (We were supposed to be quiet! We were supposed to just teach Literature or Literary Criticism, etc.!).

    Upton Sinclair exposed the scam it back in the 1920s in his excellent “The Goosestep,” and “The Goslings.”

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  • I don’t understand why the so-called ‘Islam Press’ has to interview Gary Corseri who doesn’t know or speak about Islam or why Muslims have been replace into Jews in the West in the past?

    Gary Corseri is wrong about Saddam Hussein. He was put in power by the Anglo-American colonial powers to curb the emerging political Islam in the Arab world. They used him to destroy Islamic regime in Iran. After 8-year war when he failed to do so, Saddam became a liability to the western interests in the region. Saddam never asked financial aid from Washington as he was sitting on one of the richest economy in the region. He never threatened Israel or United States interests in the region.

    Osama Bin Laden, like Saddam Hussein was an American asset. He and his organization, the so-called ‘al-Qaeda’ was blamed for “masterminding” September 11, 2001 attack were used as smokescreen to protect the real criminals – American Zionists and Israeli Mossad.

    Ray McGovern is right about the American traitors with the US-Israel dual citizen, who are mostly Zionist Jews. Therefore, the right term for them is ‘Zion-Conservatives.

    YES, Jill Stein is not a ‘con-Zionist Jew’ like Bernie Sanders and she may try to change America’s foreign policy towards the Muslim world – but she has a ‘zero chance’ to enter the White House considering Israel being the KING-MAKER.

    If the Muslim Press really wants to know about how an American feels – it should interview ‘Mint Press’ founder Mnar Muhawesh, or far better professor Deepa Kumar….

    https://rehmat1.com/2013/09/25/deepa-kumar-islamophobia-for-dummies/

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    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete
    I see that Rose Wilder Lane was mentioned in the link. I've read a lot of her , and consider her a genius, but I was unaware of her views on Islam. I find that very interesting and will have to look it up.

    Thanks for the info!!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Which president was or is a bigger war criminal and genocidal mass murderer of millions of people across the world: Bush, Clinton or Obongo? Now, that’s the topic I’d like to see some analysis on. I am particulary interested in how many millions of people have each Murican presidente killed. I think that answer to that question should give as an answer to the first one as well.

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  • GAZA UNSILENCED. Edited by Refaat Alareer and Laila El-Haddad. Just World Books, Charlottesville, VA., 2015. When I received this book in the mail, about a week ago, the first thing that struck me was the amazing cover photo. Now, I think I’m as wary of judging a book by its cover as the next reader/reviewer;...
  • @KA
    Page 32 and references are in page 179 from ISRAELI PEACE PALESTINIAN JUSTICE
    LIBERATION THEOLOGY and THE PEACE PROCESS by Thomas L Are
    -------In 1961 Irish Journalist Erskine Childers examined the American and British broadcasting records and found " there was not a single order or appeal,or suggestion about evacuation from any Arab station inside or outsidePalestine in 1948. "
    On the other hand Zionist radio stations had been broadcasting in Arabic urging Palestinians to leave home .

    An Israeli officer revealed just how deliberate the broadcasts were :
    .... as uncontrolled panic spread through all Arab quarters,the Israeli brought up jeeps with loudspeakers which broadcast recorded " horror sounds'
    These included shrieks,wails and anguished moans of Arab women,the wail of sirens and the clang of fire alarm bells,interrupted by sepulchral voice calling out in Arabic: " Save your souls,all ye faithful: The Jews are using poison gas and atomic weapons. Run for your lives in the name of Allah"

    Sources--

    1 The Other Exodus
    2 The Gun and the Olive Branch: The Roots of Violence in the Middle East
    3 Facts and Fables : The Arab Israeli Conflict
    4 The Arab Israeli Reader: A Documentary History of the Middle East Conflict.

    So what if the Arabs fled when the fighting went on. The Arabs owned t their properties and the Jews had no right to steal the real estate.

    I’m 420 miles from home right now. I’ve been away 4 months Does that mean I have given up my property to any thug with a gun who who breaks the locks and moves in?

    Jews are just doing to the Palestinians what they did to the Russians 1919 to 1990
    and what they would like to do to us American goyim.

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  • @SolontoCroesus
    Your handle, "existential," suggests to me dwelling in the realm of the abstract; that is what was behind the "concrete" references.

    I chose not to -- or forgot to -- comment on the inhumanity, much less the injustice, of your proposal to "screw the middle east ... let them work it out or kill each other."

    It's not like we (Americans) had anything to do with screwing up the region, is it, Existential Confusion, or are you confused about those facts as well?

    Remember Colin "We Broke it We Own it" Powell?

    The West enjoyed, and I mean really enjoyed, prospered, lived high off the hog of Middle Eastern oil for the better part of a century. The people of the region, ordinary Iranians or Saudi Arabians, never enjoyed anything near the prosperity Americans enjoyed, on the oil that was their resource, that their workers were virtually enslaved to produce -- did you ever read about how the British kept Iranian oil workers in virtual refugee camps while their British overlords lived like monarchs?
    When I hear US politicians bray that "US is energy independent. We no longer need to rely on people who hate us for our energy needs," I wonder what their attitude was when it was Iranians who were getting cancers from working oil fields, and Iranians who spent their lives eating dust and grime while Americans drove block-long Cadillacs.

    A nation that has any pretensions at all to integrity much less moral authority recognizes its obligations to make reparations for the harm it has done to others.
    It's a concept basic to Law of Equity and to criminal law.

    It's the essence of the Golden Rule, for Zeus's sake.

    Lots of Iranians drove block long Cadillacs
    when we were buying their oil. And lots of Americans didn’t have cars and took the bus or walked.

    Iran always was a very rich country If it’s wealth was not distributed equally, well that’s the way of the entire world.

    It’s true the British did their best to turn southern Iraq into a colony.

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  • […] targeted in  bombing runs, using U.S.  intelligence.  IN all  this seems like a re-run of the kind of brutality used for almost 80  years by the Saudi’s new-found ally,  the  Israelis, in  exterminating […]

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  • @Sam Shama
    Rurik,
    I think we all are, in varying degrees, familiar with the use of propaganda throughout the history of wars, and specifically as a device during the period, say 1914-1942.

    Needless to say, there are two versions of the Polish-German story. I am not a trained historian, but shall at some point in the future, engage respected historians to obtain their recounting of the circumstances.

    Here is what I have read recently:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=nvRNx6YM7LIC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=Polish+castration+of+Germans&source=bl&ots=llaHLghZXQ&sig=8N5QBYViSGCTSvYhSe-M2ipIuf4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDYQ6AEwA2oVChMIwNy01eujxwIVSnc-Ch0GTg2O#v=onepage&q=Polish%20castration%20of%20Germans&f=false

    read pg-34 and onwards.

    thx

    Sam Shama,

    Before there was Gleiwitz there was intense negotiation to try to settle the conflict nonviolently.

    Maj. Gen. Gerd Schultz-Rhonhof,
    1939: The War that had Many Fathers

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  • @Rurik

    in contravention of the ToV, the Allies were convinced that Adolf H. was not about to negotiate Danzig in good faith.

    It would be a great blessing if wars were wiped off the history of man, and treaties respected.
     
    "treaties respected"

    Hitler and the German people should have respected the Treaty of Versailles?!

    Have you heard of the The Kaufman Plan detailing the castration of all German men over 16 years of age?

    In interview in the September 26, 1941, issue of The Canadian Jewish Chronicle, Kaufman attempted to justify his plan for the "sterilization of all Germans". He said:[10]


    I believe, that the Jews have a mission in life. They must see to it that the nations of the world get together in one vast federation. "Union Now" is the beginning of this. Slowly but surely the world will develop into a paradise. We will have perpetual peace. And the Jews will do the most to bring about this confederation, because they have the most to gain. But how can you get peace if Germany exists? The only way to win an eternal peace is to make the punishment of waging war more horrible than war itself. Human beings are penalized for murder, aren't they? Well, Germany starts all the wars of magnitude. Let us sterilize all Germans and wars of world domination will come to an end!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish!
     
    I stumbled across that when I was looking for an account of German boys being castrated by Polish (Bolshevik) partisans in Danzig. It was the abuses the ethnic Germans were suffering in Danzig that forced Hitler to demand a corridor. There is no evidence that allowing a corridor into Danzig would have meant global domination of the planet by Nazis. Hardly. The idea isn't that the world had to be protected from Nazis, the idea rather was the Anglo/Jewish desire that Germany be spiritually and eternally (if not physically) emasculated for all time. A boot had to be placed on their necks- if not the even better total sterilization and extermination. It was because of such attitudes that Germany became so militaristic. Looking at the Kulaks and reading the words of men like Morgenthau and Kaufman, they knew what was in store for them too.

    Rurik,
    I think we all are, in varying degrees, familiar with the use of propaganda throughout the history of wars, and specifically as a device during the period, say 1914-1942.

    Needless to say, there are two versions of the Polish-German story. I am not a trained historian, but shall at some point in the future, engage respected historians to obtain their recounting of the circumstances.

    Here is what I have read recently:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=nvRNx6YM7LIC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=Polish+castration+of+Germans&source=bl&ots=llaHLghZXQ&sig=8N5QBYViSGCTSvYhSe-M2ipIuf4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDYQ6AEwA2oVChMIwNy01eujxwIVSnc-Ch0GTg2O#v=onepage&q=Polish%20castration%20of%20Germans&f=false

    read pg-34 and onwards.

    thx

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Sam Shama,

    Before there was Gleiwitz there was intense negotiation to try to settle the conflict nonviolently.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBLgZAv_Iqo

    Maj. Gen. Gerd Schultz-Rhonhof,
    1939: The War that had Many Fathers

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Rurik, I am aware where you might be going with the argument. After the taking of Bohemia and Moravia in contravention of the ToV, the Allies were convinced that Adolf H. was not about to negotiate Danzig in good faith.

    It would be a great blessing if wars were wiped off the history of man, and treaties respected. What we have instead, is the Dystopia of our own creation.

    in contravention of the ToV, the Allies were convinced that Adolf H. was not about to negotiate Danzig in good faith.

    It would be a great blessing if wars were wiped off the history of man, and treaties respected.

    “treaties respected”

    Hitler and the German people should have respected the Treaty of Versailles?!

    Have you heard of the The Kaufman Plan detailing the castration of all German men over 16 years of age?

    In interview in the September 26, 1941, issue of The Canadian Jewish Chronicle, Kaufman attempted to justify his plan for the “sterilization of all Germans”. He said:[10]

    I believe, that the Jews have a mission in life. They must see to it that the nations of the world get together in one vast federation. “Union Now” is the beginning of this. Slowly but surely the world will develop into a paradise. We will have perpetual peace. And the Jews will do the most to bring about this confederation, because they have the most to gain. But how can you get peace if Germany exists? The only way to win an eternal peace is to make the punishment of waging war more horrible than war itself. Human beings are penalized for murder, aren’t they? Well, Germany starts all the wars of magnitude. Let us sterilize all Germans and wars of world domination will come to an end!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish!

    I stumbled across that when I was looking for an account of German boys being castrated by Polish (Bolshevik) partisans in Danzig. It was the abuses the ethnic Germans were suffering in Danzig that forced Hitler to demand a corridor. There is no evidence that allowing a corridor into Danzig would have meant global domination of the planet by Nazis. Hardly. The idea isn’t that the world had to be protected from Nazis, the idea rather was the Anglo/Jewish desire that Germany be spiritually and eternally (if not physically) emasculated for all time. A boot had to be placed on their necks- if not the even better total sterilization and extermination. It was because of such attitudes that Germany became so militaristic. Looking at the Kulaks and reading the words of men like Morgenthau and Kaufman, they knew what was in store for them too.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Rurik,
    I think we all are, in varying degrees, familiar with the use of propaganda throughout the history of wars, and specifically as a device during the period, say 1914-1942.

    Needless to say, there are two versions of the Polish-German story. I am not a trained historian, but shall at some point in the future, engage respected historians to obtain their recounting of the circumstances.

    Here is what I have read recently:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=nvRNx6YM7LIC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=Polish+castration+of+Germans&source=bl&ots=llaHLghZXQ&sig=8N5QBYViSGCTSvYhSe-M2ipIuf4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDYQ6AEwA2oVChMIwNy01eujxwIVSnc-Ch0GTg2O#v=onepage&q=Polish%20castration%20of%20Germans&f=false

    read pg-34 and onwards.

    thx

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Rurik,

    I say Gitmo all the way,,,,,,but to be honest with you about Zionism, I never saw that coming either....part of me would like to believe that kind of ideology of brutal domination, land grabbing, and sadistic dehumanization couldn't really be part of a "Jewish state".

    I felt that the war of 67 and the capture of the West Bank, the Golan Heights and the Sinai was part of a grand bargain in waiting, so to speak....let Israel exist , was the idea...and we will return the stolen lands.....I always kinda believed that...I really did..

    I guess after all that has happened, a real disillusionment has taken over...

    Its very sad...in fact ....its tragic.

    No to Gitmo. No to torture, even for that lot.

    Return to 1948 borders of original UN mandate and full rights for all Palestinians including the right of return of all Pals.

    The experiment didn’t work. The Jews were given a country fee simple and they proved to the world that they didn’t have the maturity to make it viable without billions of dollars of lucre from an extorted Germany and American tax-slave as they turned the Holy Land into a grotesque Nazi dystopian nightmare.

    “Operation cast lead”

    No wonder the Romans dispersed them. There is a serious flaw there. I think it has to do with the racial supremacist crap in their religion.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Existential Confusion
    I will not disagree with the two examples you give, but I do not believe that every conflict we have become involved in e.g.: Bay of Pigs, Dominican Civil War, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Somali, etc.... were all the results of Israeli machinations. A cabal of international banks, corporations and other monied interests were pulling the strings of our greedy crooked politicians long before 1948.

    Agreed. I was referring to all the treasure spent and bloodshed that has taken place post 9/11.

    Read More
    • Agree: alexander
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @KA
    Page 32 and references are in page 179 from ISRAELI PEACE PALESTINIAN JUSTICE
    LIBERATION THEOLOGY and THE PEACE PROCESS by Thomas L Are
    -------In 1961 Irish Journalist Erskine Childers examined the American and British broadcasting records and found " there was not a single order or appeal,or suggestion about evacuation from any Arab station inside or outsidePalestine in 1948. "
    On the other hand Zionist radio stations had been broadcasting in Arabic urging Palestinians to leave home .

    An Israeli officer revealed just how deliberate the broadcasts were :
    .... as uncontrolled panic spread through all Arab quarters,the Israeli brought up jeeps with loudspeakers which broadcast recorded " horror sounds'
    These included shrieks,wails and anguished moans of Arab women,the wail of sirens and the clang of fire alarm bells,interrupted by sepulchral voice calling out in Arabic: " Save your souls,all ye faithful: The Jews are using poison gas and atomic weapons. Run for your lives in the name of Allah"

    Sources--

    1 The Other Exodus
    2 The Gun and the Olive Branch: The Roots of Violence in the Middle East
    3 Facts and Fables : The Arab Israeli Conflict
    4 The Arab Israeli Reader: A Documentary History of the Middle East Conflict.

    I shall read. Thx

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    How so?
     
    1. Iraq - read Mearsheimer and Walt
    2. Ukraine - Russia supports Syria and Iran, both are sponsors of Hezbollah, Israel's arch enemy. Russia also has a veto as a permanent member of UNSC. The neocons (Victoria Nudelman is the spouse of Robert Kagan, co-founder of PNAC) have publicly threatened to remove Putin from the Kremlin, feet-first.

    Need more proof?

    I will not disagree with the two examples you give, but I do not believe that every conflict we have become involved in e.g.: Bay of Pigs, Dominican Civil War, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Somali, etc…. were all the results of Israeli machinations. A cabal of international banks, corporations and other monied interests were pulling the strings of our greedy crooked politicians long before 1948.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62
    Agreed. I was referring to all the treasure spent and bloodshed that has taken place post 9/11.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Eliezer
    Disputing the history of the creation of modern Israel, means that you are either unaware, or willfully attempting to whitewash it. My grandfather was a participant in that war. All the Arab radio broadcasts urged Palestinians to flee. Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon radios called out the massacre at Deir Yassin at the hands of the Irgun. The Arab population listened. So would anybody in that situation. Over 700k, with just the clothes on their back, simply left their lives behind. My grandfather's commander, when the Hagannah reached Deir Yassin, called out to the Irgun killers "Menuvalim! Menuvalim!"....do you know what that means? Disgusting soulless creatures! Yafo fell. Yerushalayim. Teveriya. Galil. Nartseret. A hundred other communities fell.

    Its 2015. The Hebrew year 5775. Every bit of perfidy, every atrocity, every drop of blood splattered on the land is meticulously recorded. Digitally. For eternity. It will remain a pockmark on the face of humanity, a blight on the Jewish soul if we cannot acknowledge what happened. And redress.

    Every year when I visit Israel, I travel to a little village in the Gallilee, where I meet a white haired, beautiful old Arab lady; Savta Jamillah (grandmother Jamillah) she is called, by Jew and Arab alike. She makes soap with olive oil and sells it to make a living. She tells her story when she is in the mood. Once she remarked to me "When are the children of Abraham going to wake up?"

    Do we understand?

    I see no difficulty with proper planning to bestow citizenship to all Palestinians. It will be a truly modern semitic country in the ME. We have the knowledge and the capability to make this come true. It is not a "dream" fraught with impossible odds against it. Its eminently possible. The wherewithals are in our (Jewish) hands. We can make it happen. We should.

    The Russians like Lieberman are NOT Jewish. I don't need the fucked up interpretation of the Torah from these murderers to contaminate our thoughts. I know it far better than than those killers who do not even know the Shema Yisrael!. I once spoke to a group of these grinning halfwits , reciting the passages they were made to memorise. I then got into the Talmud with their "rabbi", who did not even know why or what the Sanhedrin of the Talmud intended with the Old Laws. They wanted each generation to apply their minds and conscience to change with the times! For example, "Eye for an Eye" of the old laws was rendered impossible, especially by the State, since 70 Judges would never agree on one thing! So went out of the window, many things that do not resonate with the times.

    We must do this, or it will consume us, and our children will stop loving us if we fail. They know the truth. Again its the year 5775.

    Page 32 and references are in page 179 from ISRAELI PEACE PALESTINIAN JUSTICE
    LIBERATION THEOLOGY and THE PEACE PROCESS by Thomas L Are
    ——-In 1961 Irish Journalist Erskine Childers examined the American and British broadcasting records and found ” there was not a single order or appeal,or suggestion about evacuation from any Arab station inside or outsidePalestine in 1948. ”
    On the other hand Zionist radio stations had been broadcasting in Arabic urging Palestinians to leave home .

    An Israeli officer revealed just how deliberate the broadcasts were :
    …. as uncontrolled panic spread through all Arab quarters,the Israeli brought up jeeps with loudspeakers which broadcast recorded ” horror sounds’
    These included shrieks,wails and anguished moans of Arab women,the wail of sirens and the clang of fire alarm bells,interrupted by sepulchral voice calling out in Arabic: ” Save your souls,all ye faithful: The Jews are using poison gas and atomic weapons. Run for your lives in the name of Allah”

    Sources–

    1 The Other Exodus
    2 The Gun and the Olive Branch: The Roots of Violence in the Middle East
    3 Facts and Fables : The Arab Israeli Conflict
    4 The Arab Israeli Reader: A Documentary History of the Middle East Conflict.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I shall read. Thx
    , @Alden
    So what if the Arabs fled when the fighting went on. The Arabs owned t their properties and the Jews had no right to steal the real estate.

    I'm 420 miles from home right now. I've been away 4 months Does that mean I have given up my property to any thug with a gun who who breaks the locks and moves in?

    Jews are just doing to the Palestinians what they did to the Russians 1919 to 1990
    and what they would like to do to us American goyim.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Existential Confusion

    Would have been more accurate if he had stopped at Israel:
     
    How so?

    How so?

    1. Iraq – read Mearsheimer and Walt
    2. Ukraine – Russia supports Syria and Iran, both are sponsors of Hezbollah, Israel’s arch enemy. Russia also has a veto as a permanent member of UNSC. The neocons (Victoria Nudelman is the spouse of Robert Kagan, co-founder of PNAC) have publicly threatened to remove Putin from the Kremlin, feet-first.

    Need more proof?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Existential Confusion
    I will not disagree with the two examples you give, but I do not believe that every conflict we have become involved in e.g.: Bay of Pigs, Dominican Civil War, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Somali, etc.... were all the results of Israeli machinations. A cabal of international banks, corporations and other monied interests were pulling the strings of our greedy crooked politicians long before 1948.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @geokat62

    No more taxpayer money and no more American blood spilt for Israel, Iraq, Ukraine or any other damn country.
     
    Would have been more accurate if he had stopped at Israel:

    No more taxpayer money and no more American blood spilt for Israel.
     

    Would have been more accurate if he had stopped at Israel:

    How so?

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    How so?
     
    1. Iraq - read Mearsheimer and Walt
    2. Ukraine - Russia supports Syria and Iran, both are sponsors of Hezbollah, Israel's arch enemy. Russia also has a veto as a permanent member of UNSC. The neocons (Victoria Nudelman is the spouse of Robert Kagan, co-founder of PNAC) have publicly threatened to remove Putin from the Kremlin, feet-first.

    Need more proof?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • No more taxpayer money and no more American blood spilt for Israel, Iraq, Ukraine or any other damn country.

    Would have been more accurate if he had stopped at Israel:

    No more taxpayer money and no more American blood spilt for Israel.

    Read More
    • Agree: Sam Shama
    • Replies: @Existential Confusion

    Would have been more accurate if he had stopped at Israel:
     
    How so?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “We have enough problems to deal with in this country. We need to extricate ourselves from the Middle East. No more taxpayer money and no more American blood spilt for Israel, Iraq, Ukraine or any other damn country. “

    Amen!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Existential Confusion
    SC,

    My father never saw anyone being murdered, he would have intervened. As you say, he saw the aftermath. As far as film crews preceding troops, I can not say it did or didn't happen at other camps, but it didn't happen at Dora-Mittelbau - my father's unit fought heir way there - they were the first in.

    The systematic internment and murder of Jews by the Nazis is fact. My father was with the 3rd Armored Division when they liberated Dora-Mittelbau concentration camp, on April 11th, 1945.
    Whether the numbers associated with the holocaust are inflated I don’t know, I am not the trusting type, but I know that what my father saw at Dora-Mittelbau scared him for life.

    My father never saw anyone being murdered, he would have intervened. As you say, he saw the aftermath.

    I hate to be quarrelsome, EC, but by your own statements, your father did NOT see the “murder of Jews by the Nazis,” he saw “the aftermath.”

    One supposes he saw corpses, and emaciated, perhaps diseased people.

    Unless the live persons were chained to pillars or cuffed to racks or there was some other evidence that they had been tortured or abused or were about to be murdered;

    and unless the corpses showed clear signs of having been “murdered,”

    and unless there was some solid evidence that the murders had been carried out by “Nazis,”

    and unless it was in some physical way clear that the corpses were “Jews,” what you relate that your father saw does not create a “fact” that “Nazis murdered Jews.”

    It just doesn’t, Existential Confusion.
    You couldn’t contest a parking ticket on that level of evidence, as horrible, scarring, and as outrageous an assault on your father’s humanity as it surely must have been.

    It’s reasonable to state that what he saw establishes the fact that Germans systematically interned persons, some of whom may have been Jews.

    But I should think a competent court would require records, or sound testimony, and full context of the situation, to make any “fact” statements beyond that.

    Mittelbau was a labor camp, hastily built to assemble V2 rockets after another manufacturing site had been destroyed by Allied bombers.
    The new camp was built in tunnels, which is also where slave laborers slept until above ground facilities were prepared for them. Conditions were very harsh.

    Wikipedia notes that:

    On 3 and 4 April 1945, Nordhausen was attacked in two waves by several hundred Lancasters and Mosquitos of Nos 1 and 8 Groups of the Royal Air Force Bomber Command. Around 75% of the town was destroyed, the medieval old town was hit particularly hard. Out of 40,000 inhabitants, roughly 8,800 people died, 20,000 lost their homes. Among the dead were also an estimated 1,300-1,500 Mittelbau prisoners, who were confined at the Boelcke-Kaserne at the time.

    In The Fire: The Bombing of Germany 1940 – 1945, Jorg Friedrich wrote about the Allied bombings that concentrated on dam busting. In one such bombing raid, a city five miles down from the bombed dam, flood waters wiped out a town, killing 859 inhabitants. Further downstream 750 prisoner-laborers were drowned.

    What those two little factoids reveal is that Allied bombing precipitated the harsh conditions in labor camps and Allied bombing caused the deaths of prisoners in labor camps.

    Please don’t misconstrue this as a justification for the prison camp system. Adding this context to situations such as those of the Mittelbau prison camp is simply an attempt to tell sides of the story that are almost never told.

    Allied firebombing of German civilians was a deliberate strategic choice. It was also a war crime and crime against humanity for which the US and Britain have never been called to account.

    The US military-industrial-congressional complex set the standard in World War II: just as Americans were not informed of the planned deaths of civilians in Germany and Japan, so the American people are almost never told of the many thousands of deaths of civilians in Iraq, etc. that have been caused by the actions of their government.

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  • @Rurik

    to “proportion the Holocaust” and endorse the notion of awarding Hitler the Nobel Peace Prize posthumously.
     
    what would you say if Hitler had been willing to stop at the return of all German speaking peoples and lands back to the Fatherland, including Danzig and the Sudetenland, the Volga Germans, etc..?

    Were he simply to be contented with the Nuremburg laws, the consensual return of German lands and peoples, the revival of German dignity and a repudiation of the wrongs of the Treaty of Versailles, would that have been acceptable to your mind? Should it have been?

    I think at one time that would have meant peace in Europe.

    Rurik, I am aware where you might be going with the argument. After the taking of Bohemia and Moravia in contravention of the ToV, the Allies were convinced that Adolf H. was not about to negotiate Danzig in good faith.

    It would be a great blessing if wars were wiped off the history of man, and treaties respected. What we have instead, is the Dystopia of our own creation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    in contravention of the ToV, the Allies were convinced that Adolf H. was not about to negotiate Danzig in good faith.

    It would be a great blessing if wars were wiped off the history of man, and treaties respected.
     
    "treaties respected"

    Hitler and the German people should have respected the Treaty of Versailles?!

    Have you heard of the The Kaufman Plan detailing the castration of all German men over 16 years of age?

    In interview in the September 26, 1941, issue of The Canadian Jewish Chronicle, Kaufman attempted to justify his plan for the "sterilization of all Germans". He said:[10]


    I believe, that the Jews have a mission in life. They must see to it that the nations of the world get together in one vast federation. "Union Now" is the beginning of this. Slowly but surely the world will develop into a paradise. We will have perpetual peace. And the Jews will do the most to bring about this confederation, because they have the most to gain. But how can you get peace if Germany exists? The only way to win an eternal peace is to make the punishment of waging war more horrible than war itself. Human beings are penalized for murder, aren't they? Well, Germany starts all the wars of magnitude. Let us sterilize all Germans and wars of world domination will come to an end!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish!
     
    I stumbled across that when I was looking for an account of German boys being castrated by Polish (Bolshevik) partisans in Danzig. It was the abuses the ethnic Germans were suffering in Danzig that forced Hitler to demand a corridor. There is no evidence that allowing a corridor into Danzig would have meant global domination of the planet by Nazis. Hardly. The idea isn't that the world had to be protected from Nazis, the idea rather was the Anglo/Jewish desire that Germany be spiritually and eternally (if not physically) emasculated for all time. A boot had to be placed on their necks- if not the even better total sterilization and extermination. It was because of such attitudes that Germany became so militaristic. Looking at the Kulaks and reading the words of men like Morgenthau and Kaufman, they knew what was in store for them too.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Rurik

    ... I remember jumping up in my chair yelling Yahoo when the statue of Saddam came down ...
     
    I was fooled initially about 911 and first figured it was Muslim terrorists, but that soon changed and I knew what they were up to.

    So when the howls for 'war' began, and on the usual victims by the usual suspects, I knew what was up. I've known for a long time 'The Agenda' of Zionism's intentions to dominate the planet. So when 'Shock and Awe' began raining its bombs down, I remember my office manager and myself looking at each other with this pitiful, far away stare in our eyes. We both understood what it all meant and why it was being done. We'd both come to understand the plight of the Palestinians and the treason of our own governments, (she was Canadian). We understood the nature of the people doing it. We understood what power does to men. And how they can never get enough. And it's always the most innocent who suffer at the hands of the most evil. The 'war on terror' was to be no different. We (our occupied governments of the west) were going to show- especially the Muslim world- what terror really was.

    Do I think they belong in Gitmo? Officially no. But if it took a little harsh questioning of Dov Zekheim or Philip zelikow, even tho I don't approve of any kind of torture, I'd like at least to ask these boyz some questions.

    As for the rest of them, a cage at the Hague would satisfy me. Something about as cozy as the one they put Milosevic in before they murdered him.

    As for what I say.. A light is going out.

    We are entering a new dark age. A time when the truth is not even given lip service. Rather they use the word as a pejorative. '911 truth' for instance is considered 'out there'. They wrap themselves in lies on top of lies and surround themselves with liars. It's seems to be all there is anymore. And we're all forced to go along with the pathetic charade.

    That's how I see it. And it's also why I decided to start speaking out. Even if only on Ron's nice website here ; )

    Rurik,

    I say Gitmo all the way,,,,,,but to be honest with you about Zionism, I never saw that coming either….part of me would like to believe that kind of ideology of brutal domination, land grabbing, and sadistic dehumanization couldn’t really be part of a “Jewish state”.

    I felt that the war of 67 and the capture of the West Bank, the Golan Heights and the Sinai was part of a grand bargain in waiting, so to speak….let Israel exist , was the idea…and we will return the stolen lands…..I always kinda believed that…I really did..

    I guess after all that has happened, a real disillusionment has taken over…

    Its very sad…in fact ….its tragic.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    No to Gitmo. No to torture, even for that lot.

    Return to 1948 borders of original UN mandate and full rights for all Palestinians including the right of return of all Pals.

    The experiment didn't work. The Jews were given a country fee simple and they proved to the world that they didn't have the maturity to make it viable without billions of dollars of lucre from an extorted Germany and American tax-slave as they turned the Holy Land into a grotesque Nazi dystopian nightmare.

    "Operation cast lead"

    No wonder the Romans dispersed them. There is a serious flaw there. I think it has to do with the racial supremacist crap in their religion.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Art
    “ but I know that what my father saw at Dora-Mittelbau scared him for life”

    Would your father be horrified by what the Israeli Jews are doing in Gaza and the West bank – how about you? How is their fascism different from German fascism?

    There have been horrific things done all throughout history – shouldn’t we be about stopping the current evil?

    The Jews have used the wrong done them - to do more wrong.

    There is no question but that the Zionist Jews are taking mankind backwards.

    You need to get your back up about it!

    Would your father be horrified by what the Israeli Jews are doing in Gaza and the West bank – how about you? How is their fascism different from German fascism?

    The fanatic always returns to their own trough. My post was a rebuttal, through first hand information – imparted to me by my father, to the denial of German atrocities at the camps; a specific response to a specific assertion.

    My grandmother was a full-blooded Cherokee, a peoples that the American government, after stealing their land, attempted to eradicate. So, Art, was your father horrified by that, are you? Many of my ancestors died on the trail of tears, others who stayed to fight, were hung or shot. I don’t see anybody spilling any tears over their plight. It seems everybody has their own atrocity to to fuel their hate.

    There have been horrific things done all throughout history – shouldn’t we be about stopping the current evil?

    There are atrocities being committed in every corner of the globe, many of them in the name of god by muslims, as well as jews and christians. Wherever there is religion there is hate and war, joining in on one side or the other is insanity, there will never be an end.

    We have enough problems to deal with in this country. We need to extricate ourselves from the Middle East. No more taxpayer money and no more American blood spilt for Israel, Iraq, Ukraine or any other damn country. Hell, we should have stayed out of WWII, Pat Buchanan made a good case for that:

    You need to get your back up about it!

    What I don’t need is some self-righteous internet warrior telling me what I need to do.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Existential Confusion
    The systematic internment and murder of Jews by the Nazis is fact. My father was with the 3rd Armored Division when they liberated Dora-Mittelbau concentration camp, on April 11th, 1945.

    Whether the numbers associated with the holocaust are inflated I don't know, I am not the trusting type, but I know that what my father saw at Dora-Mittelbau scared him for life.

    “ but I know that what my father saw at Dora-Mittelbau scared him for life”

    Would your father be horrified by what the Israeli Jews are doing in Gaza and the West bank – how about you? How is their fascism different from German fascism?

    There have been horrific things done all throughout history – shouldn’t we be about stopping the current evil?

    The Jews have used the wrong done them – to do more wrong.

    There is no question but that the Zionist Jews are taking mankind backwards.

    You need to get your back up about it!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Existential Confusion

    Would your father be horrified by what the Israeli Jews are doing in Gaza and the West bank – how about you? How is their fascism different from German fascism?
     
    The fanatic always returns to their own trough. My post was a rebuttal, through first hand information - imparted to me by my father, to the denial of German atrocities at the camps; a specific response to a specific assertion.

    My grandmother was a full-blooded Cherokee, a peoples that the American government, after stealing their land, attempted to eradicate. So, Art, was your father horrified by that, are you? Many of my ancestors died on the trail of tears, others who stayed to fight, were hung or shot. I don't see anybody spilling any tears over their plight. It seems everybody has their own atrocity to to fuel their hate.


    There have been horrific things done all throughout history – shouldn’t we be about stopping the current evil?
     
    There are atrocities being committed in every corner of the globe, many of them in the name of god by muslims, as well as jews and christians. Wherever there is religion there is hate and war, joining in on one side or the other is insanity, there will never be an end.

    We have enough problems to deal with in this country. We need to extricate ourselves from the Middle East. No more taxpayer money and no more American blood spilt for Israel, Iraq, Ukraine or any other damn country. Hell, we should have stayed out of WWII, Pat Buchanan made a good case for that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5n4Ekddmmc


    You need to get your back up about it!
     
    What I don’t need is some self-righteous internet warrior telling me what I need to do.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama

    How dare you presume to attempt to manipulate me, to think that I could be bought. How dare you. What a low life.
     
    I presume nothing. Yet spare me the righteous act. You did ask me if I would offer to pay for your trip to Iran instead:

    http://www.unz.com/article/keep-your-eye-on-the-camel/#comment-971617

    You don't seem to understand that I have been condemning all genocides without qualification. Your overarching objective, on the other hand, has clearly been to "proportion the Holocaust" and endorse the notion of awarding Hitler the Nobel Peace Prize posthumously.

    to “proportion the Holocaust” and endorse the notion of awarding Hitler the Nobel Peace Prize posthumously.

    what would you say if Hitler had been willing to stop at the return of all German speaking peoples and lands back to the Fatherland, including Danzig and the Sudetenland, the Volga Germans, etc..?

    Were he simply to be contented with the Nuremburg laws, the consensual return of German lands and peoples, the revival of German dignity and a repudiation of the wrongs of the Treaty of Versailles, would that have been acceptable to your mind? Should it have been?

    I think at one time that would have meant peace in Europe.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Rurik, I am aware where you might be going with the argument. After the taking of Bohemia and Moravia in contravention of the ToV, the Allies were convinced that Adolf H. was not about to negotiate Danzig in good faith.

    It would be a great blessing if wars were wiped off the history of man, and treaties respected. What we have instead, is the Dystopia of our own creation.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    ...Although when you addressed him as Croetus (mistakenly I am sure), I did for just an instant, equated it to the posterior lobe of the sagittal epididymus (Fred Reed's recent piece playing in my mind)

    I guess those… “butt jokes”… do it every time.

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    • Disagree: Sam Shama
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Rurik,

    I remember that feeling too when the museums were looted...it was awful...it still is...

    I have to confess I believed nearly everything I was told...I had never been lied to like that before...I remember jumping up in my chair yelling Yahoo when the statue of Saddam came down on the television.....

    What an evil ... Evil Con.. what a horrible tragedy.....they should all be in Guantanamo Bay for that...maybe its a bit too good for them ..........maybe a "poop pit" dug out in Guantanamo ?

    and all the remaining "yet to be charged or tried" Afghani peasants still stuck there......could deposit a little daily justice ?

    What do you say?

    … I remember jumping up in my chair yelling Yahoo when the statue of Saddam came down …

    I was fooled initially about 911 and first figured it was Muslim terrorists, but that soon changed and I knew what they were up to.

    So when the howls for ‘war’ began, and on the usual victims by the usual suspects, I knew what was up. I’ve known for a long time ‘The Agenda’ of Zionism’s intentions to dominate the planet. So when ‘Shock and Awe’ began raining its bombs down, I remember my office manager and myself looking at each other with this pitiful, far away stare in our eyes. We both understood what it all meant and why it was being done. We’d both come to understand the plight of the Palestinians and the treason of our own governments, (she was Canadian). We understood the nature of the people doing it. We understood what power does to men. And how they can never get enough. And it’s always the most innocent who suffer at the hands of the most evil. The ‘war on terror’ was to be no different. We (our occupied governments of the west) were going to show- especially the Muslim world- what terror really was.

    Do I think they belong in Gitmo? Officially no. But if it took a little harsh questioning of Dov Zekheim or Philip zelikow, even tho I don’t approve of any kind of torture, I’d like at least to ask these boyz some questions.

    As for the rest of them, a cage at the Hague would satisfy me. Something about as cozy as the one they put Milosevic in before they murdered him.

    As for what I say.. A light is going out.

    We are entering a new dark age. A time when the truth is not even given lip service. Rather they use the word as a pejorative. ’911 truth’ for instance is considered ‘out there’. They wrap themselves in lies on top of lies and surround themselves with liars. It’s seems to be all there is anymore. And we’re all forced to go along with the pathetic charade.

    That’s how I see it. And it’s also why I decided to start speaking out. Even if only on Ron’s nice website here ; )

    Read More
    • Agree: alexander
    • Replies: @alexander
    Rurik,

    I say Gitmo all the way,,,,,,but to be honest with you about Zionism, I never saw that coming either....part of me would like to believe that kind of ideology of brutal domination, land grabbing, and sadistic dehumanization couldn't really be part of a "Jewish state".

    I felt that the war of 67 and the capture of the West Bank, the Golan Heights and the Sinai was part of a grand bargain in waiting, so to speak....let Israel exist , was the idea...and we will return the stolen lands.....I always kinda believed that...I really did..

    I guess after all that has happened, a real disillusionment has taken over...

    Its very sad...in fact ....its tragic.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    ...Although when you addressed him as Croetus (mistakenly I am sure), I did for just an instant, equated it to the posterior lobe of the sagittal epididymus (Fred Reed's recent piece playing in my mind)

    **equated = equate

    proofreading

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    Haim Saban, The Influencer: An entertainment mogul cartoon peddler
    sets his sights on foreign policy.
    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/05/10/the-influencer

    Near the white upholstered sofas was a floor-to-ceiling display case filled with antiquities from Israel,
     
    -----

    Iran is one of the most architecturally rich nations in the region.

    Some of its ancient shrines, tho listed as UNESCO World Heritage sites, were damaged during the Iran-Iraq war.

    As well, Iran's own Muslim government is antipathetic to preservation of its more ancient history and heritage.

    There is much to be feared .....

    the world suffers a demonic fiend

    the monsters of the human id unleashed

    they’re using the technology we created to forge our chains, and soon the drones will fly our skies like they do the skies of Pakistan and Yemen, and for the same reasons

    There is much to be feared …..

    yes, there is

    Read More
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  • @SolontoCroesus
    Sweetie pie, SolontoCroesus is not for sale, and if he were, you could not afford him.

    ---

    Machiavelli wrote that the wise prince, and people of virtu like the Roman republic, his model of the the finest form of government of all time, did not use wealth to achieve authority or power. Machiavelli thought displays of wealth in an attempt to suborn power were debauched. Fortunately, Niccolo is dead these 500 years or his head would have exploded at US politics.

    ---

    Make your offer to Alexander.
    Heck, she'll probably pay you for a trip to the freak show on the hill overlooking Deir Yassim.

    Sweetie pie, SolontoCroesus is not for sale, and if he were, you could not afford him.

    That is one really weird statement. Sounds like something “Mango” from SNL would utter, while slapping his own hindquarters.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Hi Sam,

    Gosh..Mr Croesus has really busted a nut .......Was it something I said ?

    …Although when you addressed him as Croetus (mistakenly I am sure), I did for just an instant, equated it to the posterior lobe of the sagittal epididymus (Fred Reed’s recent piece playing in my mind)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    **equated = equate

    proofreading
    , @alexander
    I guess those... "butt jokes"... do it every time.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Hi Sam,

    Gosh..Mr Croesus has really busted a nut .......Was it something I said ?

    Nothing you said, that I can objectively discern as anything but logical and moral. I think it was my earlier comment.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    Sam, it is difficult to express the contempt with which I greet your offer to "pay my way to Yad Vashem."

    Mark Braverman as well as Phil Weiss and others have written of the psychological manipulation that is the alpha and the omega of the yad vashem project. It is despicable as is your "offer to pay my way." Deserving nothing but scorn.

    Several years ago I attended a conference where a 93-year old woman approached me, out of the crowd, with no prior information about me, and gave me her flag of Palestine and a handful of fliers about the oppression of Palestinians. She told me that for over 12 years she stood outside the holocaust museum in Washington, DC (a place that I consider an abomination and an affront to the American people) and distributed fliers and attempted to inform the many visitors of the reality of what Israel does to Palestinians.

    She told me that USHMM has a large number of employees, subsidized with US tax dollars, whose job it is to arrange tours from around the nation and the world, to go to USHMM. The scheme, the psychological manipulation that takes place, is to feel sorry for those poor Jewish people.

    This dear lady told me with tears in her eyes that she was no longer able to carry on her work, and would I please take her place.
    I do so willingly.

    ---

    Your last comment has me sputtering: Exactly who do you think you are? Were you there?
    Gertrude Stein was There. Stein lived in Paris during WWI, during Weimar, during the birthing of zionism, during World War II.
    Stein spoke out forcefully against zionism.
    Stein said that "Hitler should be nominated for the Nobel peace prize."
    For this, such worthies as Alan Dershowitz demanded that Gertrude Stein's name be stricken from the rolls of Jews honored by the United States government.
    If Dershowitz hates Gertrude Stein, I figure she's was on to something.
    Gertrude Stein Was There.


    How dare you think you are entitled to manipulate the world to endorse a land grab.
    How dare you presume to attempt to manipulate me, to think that I could be bought. How dare you. What a low life.

    The facts of the holocaust of the German people are real, verifiable, but hidden by the utter falsity of obscenities like yad vashem.
    Claims of an alleged holocaust of Jews are nearly identical, over time, to the propaganda effort that began as early as 1900.

    Through the efforts of Jews, mainly, the many contributions of the German people to the creation and prosperity of the United States have been not only hidden, even stolen from them by "high IQ Jews" (who got their start, by the way, in German as well as Russian & other universities), but have been actively demonized. Americans of German origin are made to feel ashamed of their cultural heritage.

    I'm not German; German culture is an academic and aesthetic interest, but not ethnic. But the injustice is overwhelming. One small voice can start the process of changing that injustice.

    Bully for you, Jews commemorate the Armenian genocide. Jews were among the people who enabled it. I've been to the Cathedral at Vank in Jolfa in Isfehan, and the Armenian museum on the grounds. I read the documents in the case that gives orders to carry out the removal of Armenians. I have lunch with Armenian-Iranian friends whose grandparents are "Armenian genocide survivors."

    Jews have had their 15 minutes of fame. Your time is up.

    You've got a little group of cheerleaders here, Sam. Enjoy the donkey dance.
    I'm not among them.

    How dare you presume to attempt to manipulate me, to think that I could be bought. How dare you. What a low life.

    I presume nothing. Yet spare me the righteous act. You did ask me if I would offer to pay for your trip to Iran instead:

    http://www.unz.com/article/keep-your-eye-on-the-camel/#comment-971617

    You don’t seem to understand that I have been condemning all genocides without qualification. Your overarching objective, on the other hand, has clearly been to “proportion the Holocaust” and endorse the notion of awarding Hitler the Nobel Peace Prize posthumously.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    to “proportion the Holocaust” and endorse the notion of awarding Hitler the Nobel Peace Prize posthumously.
     
    what would you say if Hitler had been willing to stop at the return of all German speaking peoples and lands back to the Fatherland, including Danzig and the Sudetenland, the Volga Germans, etc..?

    Were he simply to be contented with the Nuremburg laws, the consensual return of German lands and peoples, the revival of German dignity and a repudiation of the wrongs of the Treaty of Versailles, would that have been acceptable to your mind? Should it have been?

    I think at one time that would have meant peace in Europe.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Listen, my aim is farthest from getting you so incensed.

    I am participating in a discussion and vetting my ideas with a smart group of people, just as you are, I presume.

    You really are a classy chap aren't you? So comfortable with expletives.

    Hi Sam,

    Gosh..Mr Croesus has really busted a nut …….Was it something I said ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Nothing you said, that I can objectively discern as anything but logical and moral. I think it was my earlier comment.
    , @Sam Shama
    ...Although when you addressed him as Croetus (mistakenly I am sure), I did for just an instant, equated it to the posterior lobe of the sagittal epididymus (Fred Reed's recent piece playing in my mind)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Listen, my aim is farthest from getting you so incensed.

    I am participating in a discussion and vetting my ideas with a smart group of people, just as you are, I presume.

    You really are a classy chap aren't you? So comfortable with expletives.

    Sweetie pie, SolontoCroesus is not for sale, and if he were, you could not afford him.

    Machiavelli wrote that the wise prince, and people of virtu like the Roman republic, his model of the the finest form of government of all time, did not use wealth to achieve authority or power. Machiavelli thought displays of wealth in an attempt to suborn power were debauched. Fortunately, Niccolo is dead these 500 years or his head would have exploded at US politics.

    Make your offer to Alexander.
    Heck, she’ll probably pay you for a trip to the freak show on the hill overlooking Deir Yassim.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama

    Sweetie pie, SolontoCroesus is not for sale, and if he were, you could not afford him.
     
    That is one really weird statement. Sounds like something "Mango" from SNL would utter, while slapping his own hindquarters.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Dear Croetus,

    I am sorry that the historical obfuscation of "the Nakba' and the reasons for it... transcend your intellect .

    Truly I am.

    It is not such a hard concept to get ones mind around.. if you think about it....

    If it is for you....what can I tell you ?

    However, although I do not wish to ban commenters myself, I have done my best to make it very easy for commenters to ban each other. Near the top of every comment thread is a “Commenters to Ignore” popup button, allowing readers to provide a list of commenters whose discordant views they wish removed from their sight. [Ron Unz]

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @solontoCroesus
    Sam, it is difficult to express the contempt with which I greet your offer to "pay my way to Yad Vashem."

    Mark Braverman as well as Phil Weiss and others have written of the psychological manipulation that is the alpha and the omega of the yad vashem project. It is despicable as is your "offer to pay my way." Deserving nothing but scorn.

    Several years ago I attended a conference where a 93-year old woman approached me, out of the crowd, with no prior information about me, and gave me her flag of Palestine and a handful of fliers about the oppression of Palestinians. She told me that for over 12 years she stood outside the holocaust museum in Washington, DC (a place that I consider an abomination and an affront to the American people) and distributed fliers and attempted to inform the many visitors of the reality of what Israel does to Palestinians.

    She told me that USHMM has a large number of employees, subsidized with US tax dollars, whose job it is to arrange tours from around the nation and the world, to go to USHMM. The scheme, the psychological manipulation that takes place, is to feel sorry for those poor Jewish people.

    Your last comment sealed it: I don't feel sorry for any Jewish person. None. Not one.

    How dare you think you are entitled to manipulate the world to endorse a land grab.

    The facts of the holocaust of the German people are real, verifiable, but hidden.

    Through the efforts of Jews, mainly, the many contributions of the German people to the creation and prosperity of the United States have been not only hidden, even stolen from them by "high IQ Jews" (who got their start, by the way, in German as well as Russian & other universities), but have been actively demonized. Americans of German origin are made to feel ashamed of their cultural heritage.

    I'm not German; German culture is an academic and aesthetic interest, but not ethnic. But the injustice is overwhelming. One small voice can start the process of changing that injustice.

    Bully for you, Jews commemorate the Armenian genocide. Jews were among the people who enabled it. I've been to the Cathedral at Vank in Jolfa in Isfehan, and the Armenian museum on the grounds. I read the documents in the case that gives orders to carry out the removal of Armenians. I have lunch with Armenian-Iranian friends whose grandparents are "Armenian genocide survivors."

    Jews have had their 15 minutes of fame. Your time is up.

    You've got a little group of cheerleaders here, Sam. Enjoy the donkey dance.
    I'm not among them.

    Listen, my aim is farthest from getting you so incensed.

    I am participating in a discussion and vetting my ideas with a smart group of people, just as you are, I presume.

    You really are a classy chap aren’t you? So comfortable with expletives.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Sweetie pie, SolontoCroesus is not for sale, and if he were, you could not afford him.

    ---

    Machiavelli wrote that the wise prince, and people of virtu like the Roman republic, his model of the the finest form of government of all time, did not use wealth to achieve authority or power. Machiavelli thought displays of wealth in an attempt to suborn power were debauched. Fortunately, Niccolo is dead these 500 years or his head would have exploded at US politics.

    ---

    Make your offer to Alexander.
    Heck, she'll probably pay you for a trip to the freak show on the hill overlooking Deir Yassim.
    , @alexander
    Hi Sam,

    Gosh..Mr Croesus has really busted a nut .......Was it something I said ?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    Alexander, I'm not convinced you are able to assess facts logically.

    No longer willing to spend time attempting to untwist what I assess to be your flawed sense of history.

    You are emotional, but not rational.

    You are propelled by your sense of outrage but incompetent to perform even a basic chronological assessment; rather, you engage in completely incomprehensible righteous rants such as this:

    The point about Palestine is that for the first twenty years of American’s perception of the birth of Israel…is that there were NO palestinians there at all… Nada , Not a one..
    “It was a land without a people for a people without a land”
    Why was this so?…. why was a great curtain pulled over “the Nakba”…Why was “the ethnic cleansing of Palestine” so feverishly and fervently erased from American perceptions and American consciousness ?
    because the Holocaust never Happened?.., Mr Croesus ?…OF COURSE NOT…but precisely because it DID !
     
    That's such a weird conglomeration of non-facts and non-sense that it's hard to fathom where to start to unravel it.
    So I'm not going to bother.

    Think about it some more.
    Try to get some calm, some balance, some sound facts, some clarity.

    Then come back and we can talk.

    I'll be here.

    Dear Croetus,

    I am sorry that the historical obfuscation of “the Nakba’ and the reasons for it… transcend your intellect .

    Truly I am.

    It is not such a hard concept to get ones mind around.. if you think about it….

    If it is for you….what can I tell you ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @solontoCroesus

    However, although I do not wish to ban commenters myself, I have done my best to make it very easy for commenters to ban each other. Near the top of every comment thread is a “Commenters to Ignore” popup button, allowing readers to provide a list of commenters whose discordant views they wish removed from their sight. [Ron Unz]
     
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Rurik
    They aren't just destroying and looting the artifacts of Iraq and Syria per se, (two of the most important treasure troves at the center of the history of human civilization) but they're trying to destroy our history. 'Our' being the uniquely human story.

    It is akin to the infamous burning of the Library of Alexandria, because they're tying to wipe out knowledge itself, so they can replace it with an ignorance that suits their terrible agenda.
    It is an unprecedented crime against truth and our collective ancient legacy.

    I'll never forget the feeling in my gut when I first heard they were looting the Museum of Baghdad, (while protecting the oil fields). The curators were saying that the people behind the looting knew what they were doing and knew what they were looking for. Who doubts that today many of the most precious of those artifacts have found their way into private collections in London and Tel Aviv?

    Orwell was right about everything

    Rurik,

    I remember that feeling too when the museums were looted…it was awful…it still is…

    I have to confess I believed nearly everything I was told…I had never been lied to like that before…I remember jumping up in my chair yelling Yahoo when the statue of Saddam came down on the television…..

    What an evil … Evil Con.. what a horrible tragedy…..they should all be in Guantanamo Bay for that…maybe its a bit too good for them ……….maybe a “poop pit” dug out in Guantanamo ?

    and all the remaining “yet to be charged or tried” Afghani peasants still stuck there……could deposit a little daily justice ?

    What do you say?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    ... I remember jumping up in my chair yelling Yahoo when the statue of Saddam came down ...
     
    I was fooled initially about 911 and first figured it was Muslim terrorists, but that soon changed and I knew what they were up to.

    So when the howls for 'war' began, and on the usual victims by the usual suspects, I knew what was up. I've known for a long time 'The Agenda' of Zionism's intentions to dominate the planet. So when 'Shock and Awe' began raining its bombs down, I remember my office manager and myself looking at each other with this pitiful, far away stare in our eyes. We both understood what it all meant and why it was being done. We'd both come to understand the plight of the Palestinians and the treason of our own governments, (she was Canadian). We understood the nature of the people doing it. We understood what power does to men. And how they can never get enough. And it's always the most innocent who suffer at the hands of the most evil. The 'war on terror' was to be no different. We (our occupied governments of the west) were going to show- especially the Muslim world- what terror really was.

    Do I think they belong in Gitmo? Officially no. But if it took a little harsh questioning of Dov Zekheim or Philip zelikow, even tho I don't approve of any kind of torture, I'd like at least to ask these boyz some questions.

    As for the rest of them, a cage at the Hague would satisfy me. Something about as cozy as the one they put Milosevic in before they murdered him.

    As for what I say.. A light is going out.

    We are entering a new dark age. A time when the truth is not even given lip service. Rather they use the word as a pejorative. '911 truth' for instance is considered 'out there'. They wrap themselves in lies on top of lies and surround themselves with liars. It's seems to be all there is anymore. And we're all forced to go along with the pathetic charade.

    That's how I see it. And it's also why I decided to start speaking out. Even if only on Ron's nice website here ; )
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Mr Croesus.

    I see you have most graciously EXTRACTED you "Holocaust never happened" tract ,or at least modified it ' now that you realize how kinda stupid it is....that is a positive ...maybe we can move forward on a more constructive note....

    A full and honest recounting of the horrors that befell ALL people during WWII is always welcome, but the fact that nearly sixty million people died and almost all of western civilization was destroyed as a result of this war, has not gone unnoticed by me, nor has it by most of humanity.

    I recall reading in the New York Book Review four years ago that in excess of 15 million people died from a deliberate plan of Mass Starvation by Stalin, in Belarus. Pretty gruesome, no?

    There seems to be no shortage of awfulness or unconscionable acts that occurred during that war.... which ones we choose to shine the light on, at any given moment, may in the end be a political decision, not a moral one....But it shouldn't be.

    The horror of war is indeed just that..a horror.....

    ..The pernicious" defrauding" of the United States into the Iraq War, primarily by Bibi , Israel and its coterie of Neocons , has yet to be met with the justice that should be served upon it.

    Had we, in fact, been attacked by Iraq ,on 9-11, had it, in fact, been "Saddam's Anthrax" in Senator Leahy's and Tom Brokaw's office and had our intelligence on an "imminent threat" been concrete, our recourse to war would have had real justification...

    But it was all Fraud, Mr Croesus, horrible, evil fraud !

    I see that "defrauding" as a supreme act of terrorism against the decency and good will of the American People (many of them Jewish) and as an inescapable one against the millions of innocent Iraqi people who have suffered and died for it....

    But that doesn't propel me to revisit history imposing that "defrauding" on all our actions .

    I disagree with you ,profoundly, on the first Iraq War....Iraq's invasion and attempted annexation of Kuwait was REAL...it was not a Fraud , a Hoax, or a Delusion..
    you can make an argument that the war we fought there was unjustified, but not that the catalyst for it was a" fake" one.

    Sometimes, we look at recent events in history, the mistakes we made,and the lies we were told to make them, and revisit ALL of history through the filter of that "defrauding",.

    I understand the tendency...if we were duped now...why hasn't every war we have fought been a duping , or every action we've taken, as a nation been a duping too?

    you can go there if you want to, Mr Croesus...but that's not my thing.

    There shouldn't be any defrauding of the American people AT ALL...certainly not towards war .

    The point about Palestine is that for the first twenty years of American's perception of the birth of Israel...is that there were NO palestinians there at all... Nada , Not a one..

    "It was a land without a people for a people without a land"

    Why was this so?.... why was a great curtain pulled over "the Nakba"...Why was "the ethnic cleansing of Palestine" so feverishly and fervently erased from American perceptions and American consciousness ?

    because the Holocaust never Happened?.., Mr Croesus ?...OF COURSE NOT...but precisely because it DID !

    The Jewish people in the founding of Israel could not BE SEEN to have committed such horrors to the Palestinians.... after condemning, with enormous and justifiable vehemence, it having happened to them.

    That is the locus of MY argument, and always has been...that the "ethnic cleansing " of Palestinians was and is no LESS pernicious than the "ethnic cleansing" of the Jews.

    it is not out of a "specific affiliation toward Palestinians or a dislike of Jewish people that the statement is made...

    Its made out of the condemnation of all" holocausts" to anyone.

    I do not need to "rewrite history" to find that center...its always been right there !

    Alexander, I’m not convinced you are able to assess facts logically.

    No longer willing to spend time attempting to untwist what I assess to be your flawed sense of history.

    You are emotional, but not rational.

    You are propelled by your sense of outrage but incompetent to perform even a basic chronological assessment; rather, you engage in completely incomprehensible righteous rants such as this:

    The point about Palestine is that for the first twenty years of American’s perception of the birth of Israel…is that there were NO palestinians there at all… Nada , Not a one..
    “It was a land without a people for a people without a land”
    Why was this so?…. why was a great curtain pulled over “the Nakba”…Why was “the ethnic cleansing of Palestine” so feverishly and fervently erased from American perceptions and American consciousness ?
    because the Holocaust never Happened?.., Mr Croesus ?…OF COURSE NOT…but precisely because it DID !

    That’s such a weird conglomeration of non-facts and non-sense that it’s hard to fathom where to start to unravel it.
    So I’m not going to bother.

    Think about it some more.
    Try to get some calm, some balance, some sound facts, some clarity.

    Then come back and we can talk.

    I’ll be here.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Dear Croetus,

    I am sorry that the historical obfuscation of "the Nakba' and the reasons for it... transcend your intellect .

    Truly I am.

    It is not such a hard concept to get ones mind around.. if you think about it....

    If it is for you....what can I tell you ?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Sam, it is difficult to express the contempt with which I greet your offer to “pay my way to Yad Vashem.”

    Mark Braverman as well as Phil Weiss and others have written of the psychological manipulation that is the alpha and the omega of the yad vashem project. It is despicable as is your “offer to pay my way.” Deserving nothing but scorn.

    Several years ago I attended a conference where a 93-year old woman approached me, out of the crowd, with no prior information about me, and gave me her flag of Palestine and a handful of fliers about the oppression of Palestinians. She told me that for over 12 years she stood outside the holocaust museum in Washington, DC (a place that I consider an abomination and an affront to the American people) and distributed fliers and attempted to inform the many visitors of the reality of what Israel does to Palestinians.

    She told me that USHMM has a large number of employees, subsidized with US tax dollars, whose job it is to arrange tours from around the nation and the world, to go to USHMM. The scheme, the psychological manipulation that takes place, is to feel sorry for those poor Jewish people.

    This dear lady told me with tears in her eyes that she was no longer able to carry on her work, and would I please take her place.
    I do so willingly.

    Your last comment has me sputtering: Exactly who do you think you are? Were you there?
    Gertrude Stein was There. Stein lived in Paris during WWI, during Weimar, during the birthing of zionism, during World War II.
    Stein spoke out forcefully against zionism.
    Stein said that “Hitler should be nominated for the Nobel peace prize.”
    For this, such worthies as Alan Dershowitz demanded that Gertrude Stein’s name be stricken from the rolls of Jews honored by the United States government.
    If Dershowitz hates Gertrude Stein, I figure she’s was on to something.
    Gertrude Stein Was There.

    How dare you think you are entitled to manipulate the world to endorse a land grab.
    How dare you presume to attempt to manipulate me, to think that I could be bought. How dare you. What a low life.

    The facts of the holocaust of the German people are real, verifiable, but hidden by the utter falsity of obscenities like yad vashem.
    Claims of an alleged holocaust of Jews are nearly identical, over time, to the propaganda effort that began as early as 1900.

    Through the efforts of Jews, mainly, the many contributions of the German people to the creation and prosperity of the United States have been not only hidden, even stolen from them by “high IQ Jews” (who got their start, by the way, in German as well as Russian & other universities), but have been actively demonized. Americans of German origin are made to feel ashamed of their cultural heritage.

    I’m not German; German culture is an academic and aesthetic interest, but not ethnic. But the injustice is overwhelming. One small voice can start the process of changing that injustice.

    Bully for you, Jews commemorate the Armenian genocide. Jews were among the people who enabled it. I’ve been to the Cathedral at Vank in Jolfa in Isfehan, and the Armenian museum on the grounds. I read the documents in the case that gives orders to carry out the removal of Armenians. I have lunch with Armenian-Iranian friends whose grandparents are “Armenian genocide survivors.”

    Jews have had their 15 minutes of fame. Your time is up.

    You’ve got a little group of cheerleaders here, Sam. Enjoy the donkey dance.
    I’m not among them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama

    How dare you presume to attempt to manipulate me, to think that I could be bought. How dare you. What a low life.
     
    I presume nothing. Yet spare me the righteous act. You did ask me if I would offer to pay for your trip to Iran instead:

    http://www.unz.com/article/keep-your-eye-on-the-camel/#comment-971617

    You don't seem to understand that I have been condemning all genocides without qualification. Your overarching objective, on the other hand, has clearly been to "proportion the Holocaust" and endorse the notion of awarding Hitler the Nobel Peace Prize posthumously.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    EC, did your father see with his own eyes in real time "Jews being systematically murdered?"

    Or did your father see emaciated people and corpses of persons who died relatively recently?

    No doubt the sight "scared him for life."

    A close relation is a psychotherapist who specializes -- volunteers, even -- to assist people who have experienced such life-changing and "scarring for life" traumas. They are embedded in the brain and the psyche. I have no idea what techniques my relation uses to help to heal these scarred souls, but I suspect that a form of reality therapy is part of it: attempting to examine the meanings applied to what was seen seems important: challenging the conclusions one leaps to in the process of experiencing that trauma --

    We have all seen pictures of the heaps of bodies that, we have been told, American or British forces saw when the liberated camps.

    The DVD "Imaginary Witness: Hollywood and the Holocaust" was among the first things that, for me, "pulled back the curtain" on holocaustism.

    According to the DVD, Allied leaders entered the camps with film crews from Hollywood, and before anyone else arrived. The pictures taken are real, of course. But the narrative, the story surrounding those horrible scenes were contrived by Allied leaders, and the creation of that narrative had one. singular. powerful goal: to complete the demonization of Germans.

    SC,

    My father never saw anyone being murdered, he would have intervened. As you say, he saw the aftermath. As far as film crews preceding troops, I can not say it did or didn’t happen at other camps, but it didn’t happen at Dora-Mittelbau – my father’s unit fought heir way there – they were the first in.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    The systematic internment and murder of Jews by the Nazis is fact. My father was with the 3rd Armored Division when they liberated Dora-Mittelbau concentration camp, on April 11th, 1945.
    Whether the numbers associated with the holocaust are inflated I don’t know, I am not the trusting type, but I know that what my father saw at Dora-Mittelbau scared him for life.
     

    My father never saw anyone being murdered, he would have intervened. As you say, he saw the aftermath.
     
    I hate to be quarrelsome, EC, but by your own statements, your father did NOT see the "murder of Jews by the Nazis," he saw "the aftermath."

    One supposes he saw corpses, and emaciated, perhaps diseased people.

    Unless the live persons were chained to pillars or cuffed to racks or there was some other evidence that they had been tortured or abused or were about to be murdered;

    and unless the corpses showed clear signs of having been "murdered,"

    and unless there was some solid evidence that the murders had been carried out by "Nazis,"

    and unless it was in some physical way clear that the corpses were "Jews," what you relate that your father saw does not create a "fact" that "Nazis murdered Jews."

    It just doesn't, Existential Confusion.
    You couldn't contest a parking ticket on that level of evidence, as horrible, scarring, and as outrageous an assault on your father's humanity as it surely must have been.

    It's reasonable to state that what he saw establishes the fact that Germans systematically interned persons, some of whom may have been Jews.

    But I should think a competent court would require records, or sound testimony, and full context of the situation, to make any "fact" statements beyond that.

    ---

    Mittelbau was a labor camp, hastily built to assemble V2 rockets after another manufacturing site had been destroyed by Allied bombers.
    The new camp was built in tunnels, which is also where slave laborers slept until above ground facilities were prepared for them. Conditions were very harsh.

    Wikipedia notes that:

    On 3 and 4 April 1945, Nordhausen was attacked in two waves by several hundred Lancasters and Mosquitos of Nos 1 and 8 Groups of the Royal Air Force Bomber Command. Around 75% of the town was destroyed, the medieval old town was hit particularly hard. Out of 40,000 inhabitants, roughly 8,800 people died, 20,000 lost their homes. Among the dead were also an estimated 1,300-1,500 Mittelbau prisoners, who were confined at the Boelcke-Kaserne at the time.
     
    In The Fire: The Bombing of Germany 1940 - 1945, Jorg Friedrich wrote about the Allied bombings that concentrated on dam busting. In one such bombing raid, a city five miles down from the bombed dam, flood waters wiped out a town, killing 859 inhabitants. Further downstream 750 prisoner-laborers were drowned.

    What those two little factoids reveal is that Allied bombing precipitated the harsh conditions in labor camps and Allied bombing caused the deaths of prisoners in labor camps.

    Please don't misconstrue this as a justification for the prison camp system. Adding this context to situations such as those of the Mittelbau prison camp is simply an attempt to tell sides of the story that are almost never told.

    Allied firebombing of German civilians was a deliberate strategic choice. It was also a war crime and crime against humanity for which the US and Britain have never been called to account.

    The US military-industrial-congressional complex set the standard in World War II: just as Americans were not informed of the planned deaths of civilians in Germany and Japan, so the American people are almost never told of the many thousands of deaths of civilians in Iraq, etc. that have been caused by the actions of their government.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    S2C, what you need to realise is that you were not an "an eye witness" to what actually happened to Jewish people and many others in Germany either. You were not an eye witness to what Der Fuhrer said or intended. You depend on documentation as much as anyone else, and you dismiss the evidence of history when it does not suit your narrative as fictitious.

    These continuous salvos from you regarding "re-proportioning" the Holocaust, do more harm than good. They poison the well of truly humanitarian intentions for people like Alexander.

    I asked you, in fact offered to pay for your trip to Jerusalem and visit the Yad Vashem. You declined. That is fine; it therefore negates your claim of any objective, comprehensive study of the heart-rending Event.

    Individual Jews and Israelis do not remember the Holocaust for the nefarious purpose of extracting benefits (Do the various Jewish politically inclined groups use it to gain a voice? Absolutely! But so do many minority groups. Its a feature of our political landscape). Mostly it is to remind ourselves, humanity at large, what can happen if we let the Beast out.

    Jews and Armenians in Jerusalem commemorate the Armenian Holocaust.

    http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Memorial.96/current_category.67/memorials_detail.html

    Jews regularlty travel to Cambodia to commemorate the Killing Fields in Cambodia (http://www.jewishtimesasia.org/community-spotlight-topmenu-43/cambodia/281-cambodia-communities/1235-whats-jewish-about-cambodia ).

    There are many other such memorials in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

    Point is, you are wrong.

    Sam, it is difficult to express the contempt with which I greet your offer to “pay my way to Yad Vashem.”

    Mark Braverman as well as Phil Weiss and others have written of the psychological manipulation that is the alpha and the omega of the yad vashem project. It is despicable as is your “offer to pay my way.” Deserving nothing but scorn.

    Several years ago I attended a conference where a 93-year old woman approached me, out of the crowd, with no prior information about me, and gave me her flag of Palestine and a handful of fliers about the oppression of Palestinians. She told me that for over 12 years she stood outside the holocaust museum in Washington, DC (a place that I consider an abomination and an affront to the American people) and distributed fliers and attempted to inform the many visitors of the reality of what Israel does to Palestinians.

    She told me that USHMM has a large number of employees, subsidized with US tax dollars, whose job it is to arrange tours from around the nation and the world, to go to USHMM. The scheme, the psychological manipulation that takes place, is to feel sorry for those poor Jewish people.

    Your last comment sealed it: I don’t feel sorry for any Jewish person. None. Not one.

    How dare you think you are entitled to manipulate the world to endorse a land grab.

    The facts of the holocaust of the German people are real, verifiable, but hidden.

    Through the efforts of Jews, mainly, the many contributions of the German people to the creation and prosperity of the United States have been not only hidden, even stolen from them by “high IQ Jews” (who got their start, by the way, in German as well as Russian & other universities), but have been actively demonized. Americans of German origin are made to feel ashamed of their cultural heritage.

    I’m not German; German culture is an academic and aesthetic interest, but not ethnic. But the injustice is overwhelming. One small voice can start the process of changing that injustice.

    Bully for you, Jews commemorate the Armenian genocide. Jews were among the people who enabled it. I’ve been to the Cathedral at Vank in Jolfa in Isfehan, and the Armenian museum on the grounds. I read the documents in the case that gives orders to carry out the removal of Armenians. I have lunch with Armenian-Iranian friends whose grandparents are “Armenian genocide survivors.”

    Jews have had their 15 minutes of fame. Your time is up.

    You’ve got a little group of cheerleaders here, Sam. Enjoy the donkey dance.
    I’m not among them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Listen, my aim is farthest from getting you so incensed.

    I am participating in a discussion and vetting my ideas with a smart group of people, just as you are, I presume.

    You really are a classy chap aren't you? So comfortable with expletives.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    the last first:

    Before I go forward and address you with ” my concerns” or what your fraudulently refer to as my “agenda”
     
    Mr. Croesus is guilty of having formed an opinion of your agenda, Alexander. Mr. Croesus surmises from your writing that you are an advocate for justice for the Palestinian people. Mr. Croesus surmises that the approach you have crafted is to create an equivalence between what you assess to be the goals of Nazism and what you assess to be the goals of zionism.

    Whether that conclusion is "fraudulent" or otherwise, it is what Mr. Croesus believes to be your "agenda."

    Your argument . . . is your belief that the attitude exists that since the “Holocaust happened to the Jewish people” they can now “do whatever they want”, Having endured such a horrific historical tragedy they are now EXEMPT from the “behavioral, legal , ethical and moral norms” that bind the rest of us to human decency… or rather your argument is that “they feel that way”.!
     
    Attributing those beliefs to "Mr Croesus" is inaccurate.
    Those statements and beliefs were explicitly and repeatedly articulated by Golda Meier, Gideon Levy, Gilad Atzmon, Paul Eisen, Avigail Abarbanel and others. Mr. Croesus has never been to Israel, therefore must rely on those who are there.

    So your “strategy” is to revise history to “undo” the Holocaust and disarm the “Jewish people”of the singular weapon they use time and time again, to “blackmail”, coerce, and manipulate much of western civilization to do what they want…..is that a correct synopsis ?
     
    Not quite correct. Mr. Croesus’ strategy, believed to be a fair and equitable approach, is to tell the whole and non-propagandized truth of the wars in Europe.
    Yes Mr. Croesus does seek to
    "disarm the 'Jewish people' " of the singular weapon they use time and time again, to “blackmail”, coerce, and manipulate much of western civilization to do what they want etc.,”

    or at least that perception of the Jewish people as has been created by Abe Foxman and the like, and undercut their ability to "blackmail, coerce and manipulate," etc.

    Two points:
    First, David Biale's "The Cultures of the Jews" offers an explanation of how the notion of "perpetual victimization" took hold among the "Jewish people" and how it is obviously and dangerously distorted.

    Second, one public intellectual whom I greatly respect, Hillary Mann Leverett, is among those Jewish people who maintain that Israel maintains it ‘special relationship’ to the USA by means of that holocaust narrative, which is harmful to both the Jewish people and American national interests, not to mention the Palestinian people.

    Your goal, then, to counter the prevailing “dogma” that “the Jewish people are the true and only real victims of history” is to , in effect, dislodge the centrality of the Holocaust from the moorings of “our” collective historical narrative ….to in effect displace it…and erase it !
     
    With you up until "erase it.”
    Displace it, yes. Erase it, no.
    More like re-proportion it: get a true picture of events from a basis in fact, not hysteria, emotion, hasbara, propaganda, and Hollywood.

    This, you surmise ,will deliver civilization from the baleful and mendacious clutches of world jewry?
     
    Bit of charged rhetoric in there, Alexander, but it contains a kernel of truth.
    If Germany were "delivered" from the "mendacious clutches" of holocaust guilt, perhaps Germany would refrain from delivering submarines to Israel that are nuclear capable and with which Israel can thereby threaten the people of Gaza from sea, in addition to land and air.

    Which is what Hitler tried to do, Nazism tried to do yet failed that time around…
     
    .

    I suspect a trap in here.
    70 years has demonstrated that the very mention of "Hitler" and "Nazism" is accompanied by distortion of the goals and means of the German people. Mr. Croesus insists that the whole story of what “Nazism and Hitler” tried to accomplish demands to be told fully, factually, and fairly.

    but if you are able to somehow redirect the tragedy of the holocaust onto the “German people” and steal it away from the Jews you can win this ‘great struggle” once and for all !Is this correct also?
     
    Once again, slightly strident in rhetoric and off-kilter in its absolutist terms.
    The facts about the suffering of the German (and Japanese) people -- civilians and later unarmed former combatants-- are verifiable. The stories of the fire bombings, rapes, starvation, population transfer of millions, forced labor etc. are not false.
    On the other hand, the stories of "soap and lampshades," and "showers that are gas chambers" are not verifiable, and to the best of my knowledge there is no evidence that Jewish people died in Allied firebombing in Germany nor of mass rapes of Jewish women by Germans.

    So the(heroic) task you have set out for yourself is to “pull back the curtain” once and for all on the “Great Holocaust hoax” and dissolve it from the materiality of western consciousness?
     
    There's an old, old movie, Hell is for Heroes. I'm no hero. If I were a hero I would make my identity known as do Phil Giraldi, Gilad Atzmon, Andrew Bacevich, Flynt and Hillary Leverett and others whom I admire for their public courage.

    I hide behind "Croesus," the king who lost his kingdom because he misinterpreted the oracle, much as American leaders misinterpret, indeed bastardize history.

    It seems obvious that the USA is on a catastrophically wrong path. Croesus-like, it makes policy and takes action based on "manufactured narratives," "manufactured crises," “manufactured consent,” even "manufactured reality."
    Those terms are another way of saying Lies.
    George Washington's Farewell Address is a compelling document. It does not endorse lying, much less killing other people in mass numbers, in the conduct of the great nation he pledged "his life, his fortune, his sacred honor" to establish.

    To return to your parting statement, which Mr. Croesus placed at the beginning of this comment, regarding what Mr. Croesus believes to be Alexander's agenda:
    Mr. Croesus believes Alexander is passionate in the attempt to advocate for the Palestinian people. Gilad Atzmon maintains a running argument about leftists and anti-zionists and pro-anti-zionists that, frankly, makes Mr. Croesus's eyes glaze over. I think the argument saps the strength of those who are genuinely appalled at the conditions Palestinians are forced to endure and who seek to change their situation.
    Mr. Croesus has been told -- warned, even -- that attempting to undercut the holocaust narrative is likewise an unhelpful distraction from the pressing project of freeing the Palestinian people.

    As Mr. Croesus sees it, the Occupation has persisted for 70 years. Nothing else has worked to change the situation. As Dr. Faurisson stated, the holocaust narrative is the "sword and shield," the "great wall" behind which Israelis enjoy impunity to kill and oppress Palestinians.

    Mr. Croesus echoes Mr. Reagan: "Tear down this wall."
    Tear down the false narrative of holocaustism.

    Your turn, Alexander.
    Take your best shot.

    Mr Croesus.

    I see you have most graciously EXTRACTED you “Holocaust never happened” tract ,or at least modified it ‘ now that you realize how kinda stupid it is….that is a positive …maybe we can move forward on a more constructive note….

    A full and honest recounting of the horrors that befell ALL people during WWII is always welcome, but the fact that nearly sixty million people died and almost all of western civilization was destroyed as a result of this war, has not gone unnoticed by me, nor has it by most of humanity.

    I recall reading in the New York Book Review four years ago that in excess of 15 million people died from a deliberate plan of Mass Starvation by Stalin, in Belarus. Pretty gruesome, no?

    There seems to be no shortage of awfulness or unconscionable acts that occurred during that war…. which ones we choose to shine the light on, at any given moment, may in the end be a political decision, not a moral one….But it shouldn’t be.

    The horror of war is indeed just that..a horror…..

    ..The pernicious” defrauding” of the United States into the Iraq War, primarily by Bibi , Israel and its coterie of Neocons , has yet to be met with the justice that should be served upon it.

    Had we, in fact, been attacked by Iraq ,on 9-11, had it, in fact, been “Saddam’s Anthrax” in Senator Leahy’s and Tom Brokaw’s office and had our intelligence on an “imminent threat” been concrete, our recourse to war would have had real justification…

    But it was all Fraud, Mr Croesus, horrible, evil fraud !

    I see that “defrauding” as a supreme act of terrorism against the decency and good will of the American People (many of them Jewish) and as an inescapable one against the millions of innocent Iraqi people who have suffered and died for it….

    But that doesn’t propel me to revisit history imposing that “defrauding” on all our actions .

    I disagree with you ,profoundly, on the first Iraq War….Iraq’s invasion and attempted annexation of Kuwait was REAL…it was not a Fraud , a Hoax, or a Delusion..
    you can make an argument that the war we fought there was unjustified, but not that the catalyst for it was a” fake” one.

    Sometimes, we look at recent events in history, the mistakes we made,and the lies we were told to make them, and revisit ALL of history through the filter of that “defrauding”,.

    I understand the tendency…if we were duped now…why hasn’t every war we have fought been a duping , or every action we’ve taken, as a nation been a duping too?

    you can go there if you want to, Mr Croesus…but that’s not my thing.

    There shouldn’t be any defrauding of the American people AT ALL…certainly not towards war .

    The point about Palestine is that for the first twenty years of American’s perception of the birth of Israel…is that there were NO palestinians there at all… Nada , Not a one..

    “It was a land without a people for a people without a land”

    Why was this so?…. why was a great curtain pulled over “the Nakba”…Why was “the ethnic cleansing of Palestine” so feverishly and fervently erased from American perceptions and American consciousness ?

    because the Holocaust never Happened?.., Mr Croesus ?…OF COURSE NOT…but precisely because it DID !

    The Jewish people in the founding of Israel could not BE SEEN to have committed such horrors to the Palestinians…. after condemning, with enormous and justifiable vehemence, it having happened to them.

    That is the locus of MY argument, and always has been…that the “ethnic cleansing ” of Palestinians was and is no LESS pernicious than the “ethnic cleansing” of the Jews.

    it is not out of a “specific affiliation toward Palestinians or a dislike of Jewish people that the statement is made…

    Its made out of the condemnation of all” holocausts” to anyone.

    I do not need to “rewrite history” to find that center…its always been right there !

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Alexander, I'm not convinced you are able to assess facts logically.

    No longer willing to spend time attempting to untwist what I assess to be your flawed sense of history.

    You are emotional, but not rational.

    You are propelled by your sense of outrage but incompetent to perform even a basic chronological assessment; rather, you engage in completely incomprehensible righteous rants such as this:

    The point about Palestine is that for the first twenty years of American’s perception of the birth of Israel…is that there were NO palestinians there at all… Nada , Not a one..
    “It was a land without a people for a people without a land”
    Why was this so?…. why was a great curtain pulled over “the Nakba”…Why was “the ethnic cleansing of Palestine” so feverishly and fervently erased from American perceptions and American consciousness ?
    because the Holocaust never Happened?.., Mr Croesus ?…OF COURSE NOT…but precisely because it DID !
     
    That's such a weird conglomeration of non-facts and non-sense that it's hard to fathom where to start to unravel it.
    So I'm not going to bother.

    Think about it some more.
    Try to get some calm, some balance, some sound facts, some clarity.

    Then come back and we can talk.

    I'll be here.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    the last first:

    Before I go forward and address you with ” my concerns” or what your fraudulently refer to as my “agenda”
     
    Mr. Croesus is guilty of having formed an opinion of your agenda, Alexander. Mr. Croesus surmises from your writing that you are an advocate for justice for the Palestinian people. Mr. Croesus surmises that the approach you have crafted is to create an equivalence between what you assess to be the goals of Nazism and what you assess to be the goals of zionism.

    Whether that conclusion is "fraudulent" or otherwise, it is what Mr. Croesus believes to be your "agenda."

    Your argument . . . is your belief that the attitude exists that since the “Holocaust happened to the Jewish people” they can now “do whatever they want”, Having endured such a horrific historical tragedy they are now EXEMPT from the “behavioral, legal , ethical and moral norms” that bind the rest of us to human decency… or rather your argument is that “they feel that way”.!
     
    Attributing those beliefs to "Mr Croesus" is inaccurate.
    Those statements and beliefs were explicitly and repeatedly articulated by Golda Meier, Gideon Levy, Gilad Atzmon, Paul Eisen, Avigail Abarbanel and others. Mr. Croesus has never been to Israel, therefore must rely on those who are there.

    So your “strategy” is to revise history to “undo” the Holocaust and disarm the “Jewish people”of the singular weapon they use time and time again, to “blackmail”, coerce, and manipulate much of western civilization to do what they want…..is that a correct synopsis ?
     
    Not quite correct. Mr. Croesus’ strategy, believed to be a fair and equitable approach, is to tell the whole and non-propagandized truth of the wars in Europe.
    Yes Mr. Croesus does seek to
    "disarm the 'Jewish people' " of the singular weapon they use time and time again, to “blackmail”, coerce, and manipulate much of western civilization to do what they want etc.,”

    or at least that perception of the Jewish people as has been created by Abe Foxman and the like, and undercut their ability to "blackmail, coerce and manipulate," etc.

    Two points:
    First, David Biale's "The Cultures of the Jews" offers an explanation of how the notion of "perpetual victimization" took hold among the "Jewish people" and how it is obviously and dangerously distorted.

    Second, one public intellectual whom I greatly respect, Hillary Mann Leverett, is among those Jewish people who maintain that Israel maintains it ‘special relationship’ to the USA by means of that holocaust narrative, which is harmful to both the Jewish people and American national interests, not to mention the Palestinian people.

    Your goal, then, to counter the prevailing “dogma” that “the Jewish people are the true and only real victims of history” is to , in effect, dislodge the centrality of the Holocaust from the moorings of “our” collective historical narrative ….to in effect displace it…and erase it !
     
    With you up until "erase it.”
    Displace it, yes. Erase it, no.
    More like re-proportion it: get a true picture of events from a basis in fact, not hysteria, emotion, hasbara, propaganda, and Hollywood.

    This, you surmise ,will deliver civilization from the baleful and mendacious clutches of world jewry?
     
    Bit of charged rhetoric in there, Alexander, but it contains a kernel of truth.
    If Germany were "delivered" from the "mendacious clutches" of holocaust guilt, perhaps Germany would refrain from delivering submarines to Israel that are nuclear capable and with which Israel can thereby threaten the people of Gaza from sea, in addition to land and air.

    Which is what Hitler tried to do, Nazism tried to do yet failed that time around…
     
    .

    I suspect a trap in here.
    70 years has demonstrated that the very mention of "Hitler" and "Nazism" is accompanied by distortion of the goals and means of the German people. Mr. Croesus insists that the whole story of what “Nazism and Hitler” tried to accomplish demands to be told fully, factually, and fairly.

    but if you are able to somehow redirect the tragedy of the holocaust onto the “German people” and steal it away from the Jews you can win this ‘great struggle” once and for all !Is this correct also?
     
    Once again, slightly strident in rhetoric and off-kilter in its absolutist terms.
    The facts about the suffering of the German (and Japanese) people -- civilians and later unarmed former combatants-- are verifiable. The stories of the fire bombings, rapes, starvation, population transfer of millions, forced labor etc. are not false.
    On the other hand, the stories of "soap and lampshades," and "showers that are gas chambers" are not verifiable, and to the best of my knowledge there is no evidence that Jewish people died in Allied firebombing in Germany nor of mass rapes of Jewish women by Germans.

    So the(heroic) task you have set out for yourself is to “pull back the curtain” once and for all on the “Great Holocaust hoax” and dissolve it from the materiality of western consciousness?
     
    There's an old, old movie, Hell is for Heroes. I'm no hero. If I were a hero I would make my identity known as do Phil Giraldi, Gilad Atzmon, Andrew Bacevich, Flynt and Hillary Leverett and others whom I admire for their public courage.

    I hide behind "Croesus," the king who lost his kingdom because he misinterpreted the oracle, much as American leaders misinterpret, indeed bastardize history.

    It seems obvious that the USA is on a catastrophically wrong path. Croesus-like, it makes policy and takes action based on "manufactured narratives," "manufactured crises," “manufactured consent,” even "manufactured reality."
    Those terms are another way of saying Lies.
    George Washington's Farewell Address is a compelling document. It does not endorse lying, much less killing other people in mass numbers, in the conduct of the great nation he pledged "his life, his fortune, his sacred honor" to establish.

    To return to your parting statement, which Mr. Croesus placed at the beginning of this comment, regarding what Mr. Croesus believes to be Alexander's agenda:
    Mr. Croesus believes Alexander is passionate in the attempt to advocate for the Palestinian people. Gilad Atzmon maintains a running argument about leftists and anti-zionists and pro-anti-zionists that, frankly, makes Mr. Croesus's eyes glaze over. I think the argument saps the strength of those who are genuinely appalled at the conditions Palestinians are forced to endure and who seek to change their situation.
    Mr. Croesus has been told -- warned, even -- that attempting to undercut the holocaust narrative is likewise an unhelpful distraction from the pressing project of freeing the Palestinian people.

    As Mr. Croesus sees it, the Occupation has persisted for 70 years. Nothing else has worked to change the situation. As Dr. Faurisson stated, the holocaust narrative is the "sword and shield," the "great wall" behind which Israelis enjoy impunity to kill and oppress Palestinians.

    Mr. Croesus echoes Mr. Reagan: "Tear down this wall."
    Tear down the false narrative of holocaustism.

    Your turn, Alexander.
    Take your best shot.

    S2C, what you need to realise is that you were not an “an eye witness” to what actually happened to Jewish people and many others in Germany either. You were not an eye witness to what Der Fuhrer said or intended. You depend on documentation as much as anyone else, and you dismiss the evidence of history when it does not suit your narrative as fictitious.

    These continuous salvos from you regarding “re-proportioning” the Holocaust, do more harm than good. They poison the well of truly humanitarian intentions for people like Alexander.

    I asked you, in fact offered to pay for your trip to Jerusalem and visit the Yad Vashem. You declined. That is fine; it therefore negates your claim of any objective, comprehensive study of the heart-rending Event.

    Individual Jews and Israelis do not remember the Holocaust for the nefarious purpose of extracting benefits (Do the various Jewish politically inclined groups use it to gain a voice? Absolutely! But so do many minority groups. Its a feature of our political landscape). Mostly it is to remind ourselves, humanity at large, what can happen if we let the Beast out.

    Jews and Armenians in Jerusalem commemorate the Armenian Holocaust.

    http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Memorial.96/current_category.67/memorials_detail.html

    Jews regularlty travel to Cambodia to commemorate the Killing Fields in Cambodia (http://www.jewishtimesasia.org/community-spotlight-topmenu-43/cambodia/281-cambodia-communities/1235-whats-jewish-about-cambodia ).

    There are many other such memorials in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

    Point is, you are wrong.

    Read More
    • Replies: @solontoCroesus
    Sam, it is difficult to express the contempt with which I greet your offer to "pay my way to Yad Vashem."

    Mark Braverman as well as Phil Weiss and others have written of the psychological manipulation that is the alpha and the omega of the yad vashem project. It is despicable as is your "offer to pay my way." Deserving nothing but scorn.

    Several years ago I attended a conference where a 93-year old woman approached me, out of the crowd, with no prior information about me, and gave me her flag of Palestine and a handful of fliers about the oppression of Palestinians. She told me that for over 12 years she stood outside the holocaust museum in Washington, DC (a place that I consider an abomination and an affront to the American people) and distributed fliers and attempted to inform the many visitors of the reality of what Israel does to Palestinians.

    She told me that USHMM has a large number of employees, subsidized with US tax dollars, whose job it is to arrange tours from around the nation and the world, to go to USHMM. The scheme, the psychological manipulation that takes place, is to feel sorry for those poor Jewish people.

    Your last comment sealed it: I don't feel sorry for any Jewish person. None. Not one.

    How dare you think you are entitled to manipulate the world to endorse a land grab.

    The facts of the holocaust of the German people are real, verifiable, but hidden.

    Through the efforts of Jews, mainly, the many contributions of the German people to the creation and prosperity of the United States have been not only hidden, even stolen from them by "high IQ Jews" (who got their start, by the way, in German as well as Russian & other universities), but have been actively demonized. Americans of German origin are made to feel ashamed of their cultural heritage.

    I'm not German; German culture is an academic and aesthetic interest, but not ethnic. But the injustice is overwhelming. One small voice can start the process of changing that injustice.

    Bully for you, Jews commemorate the Armenian genocide. Jews were among the people who enabled it. I've been to the Cathedral at Vank in Jolfa in Isfehan, and the Armenian museum on the grounds. I read the documents in the case that gives orders to carry out the removal of Armenians. I have lunch with Armenian-Iranian friends whose grandparents are "Armenian genocide survivors."

    Jews have had their 15 minutes of fame. Your time is up.

    You've got a little group of cheerleaders here, Sam. Enjoy the donkey dance.
    I'm not among them.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Rurik
    They aren't just destroying and looting the artifacts of Iraq and Syria per se, (two of the most important treasure troves at the center of the history of human civilization) but they're trying to destroy our history. 'Our' being the uniquely human story.

    It is akin to the infamous burning of the Library of Alexandria, because they're tying to wipe out knowledge itself, so they can replace it with an ignorance that suits their terrible agenda.
    It is an unprecedented crime against truth and our collective ancient legacy.

    I'll never forget the feeling in my gut when I first heard they were looting the Museum of Baghdad, (while protecting the oil fields). The curators were saying that the people behind the looting knew what they were doing and knew what they were looking for. Who doubts that today many of the most precious of those artifacts have found their way into private collections in London and Tel Aviv?

    Orwell was right about everything

    Haim Saban, The Influencer: An entertainment mogul cartoon peddler
    sets his sights on foreign policy.
    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/05/10/the-influencer

    Near the white upholstered sofas was a floor-to-ceiling display case filled with antiquities from Israel,

    —–

    Iran is one of the most architecturally rich nations in the region.

    Some of its ancient shrines, tho listed as UNESCO World Heritage sites, were damaged during the Iran-Iraq war.

    As well, Iran’s own Muslim government is antipathetic to preservation of its more ancient history and heritage.

    There is much to be feared …..

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    the world suffers a demonic fiend

    the monsters of the human id unleashed

    they're using the technology we created to forge our chains, and soon the drones will fly our skies like they do the skies of Pakistan and Yemen, and for the same reasons

    There is much to be feared …..
     
    yes, there is
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Rurik,

    The massive "culture -cide or "cultural extermination" that went on in Iraq, that is occurring even as we speak in Syria and Palestine.....Of what possible Interest can that serve the American people ?

    How am I (or you ) better served knowing that the architecture, monuments, artistic creations and artifacts that trace a history and a civilization back thousands of years have been eradicated?

    Isn't it, by implication, an assault on all of world culture ?

    Isn't it, in the end, an assault on us, too?

    They aren’t just destroying and looting the artifacts of Iraq and Syria per se, (two of the most important treasure troves at the center of the history of human civilization) but they’re trying to destroy our history. ‘Our’ being the uniquely human story.

    It is akin to the infamous burning of the Library of Alexandria, because they’re tying to wipe out knowledge itself, so they can replace it with an ignorance that suits their terrible agenda.
    It is an unprecedented crime against truth and our collective ancient legacy.

    I’ll never forget the feeling in my gut when I first heard they were looting the Museum of Baghdad, (while protecting the oil fields). The curators were saying that the people behind the looting knew what they were doing and knew what they were looking for. Who doubts that today many of the most precious of those artifacts have found their way into private collections in London and Tel Aviv?

    Orwell was right about everything

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Haim Saban, The Influencer: An entertainment mogul cartoon peddler
    sets his sights on foreign policy.
    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/05/10/the-influencer

    Near the white upholstered sofas was a floor-to-ceiling display case filled with antiquities from Israel,
     
    -----

    Iran is one of the most architecturally rich nations in the region.

    Some of its ancient shrines, tho listed as UNESCO World Heritage sites, were damaged during the Iran-Iraq war.

    As well, Iran's own Muslim government is antipathetic to preservation of its more ancient history and heritage.

    There is much to be feared .....
    , @alexander
    Rurik,

    I remember that feeling too when the museums were looted...it was awful...it still is...

    I have to confess I believed nearly everything I was told...I had never been lied to like that before...I remember jumping up in my chair yelling Yahoo when the statue of Saddam came down on the television.....

    What an evil ... Evil Con.. what a horrible tragedy.....they should all be in Guantanamo Bay for that...maybe its a bit too good for them ..........maybe a "poop pit" dug out in Guantanamo ?

    and all the remaining "yet to be charged or tried" Afghani peasants still stuck there......could deposit a little daily justice ?

    What do you say?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Existential Confusion
    The systematic internment and murder of Jews by the Nazis is fact. My father was with the 3rd Armored Division when they liberated Dora-Mittelbau concentration camp, on April 11th, 1945.

    Whether the numbers associated with the holocaust are inflated I don't know, I am not the trusting type, but I know that what my father saw at Dora-Mittelbau scared him for life.

    EC, did your father see with his own eyes in real time “Jews being systematically murdered?”

    Or did your father see emaciated people and corpses of persons who died relatively recently?

    No doubt the sight “scared him for life.”

    A close relation is a psychotherapist who specializes — volunteers, even — to assist people who have experienced such life-changing and “scarring for life” traumas. They are embedded in the brain and the psyche. I have no idea what techniques my relation uses to help to heal these scarred souls, but I suspect that a form of reality therapy is part of it: attempting to examine the meanings applied to what was seen seems important: challenging the conclusions one leaps to in the process of experiencing that trauma –

    We have all seen pictures of the heaps of bodies that, we have been told, American or British forces saw when the liberated camps.

    The DVD “Imaginary Witness: Hollywood and the Holocaust” was among the first things that, for me, “pulled back the curtain” on holocaustism.

    According to the DVD, Allied leaders entered the camps with film crews from Hollywood, and before anyone else arrived. The pictures taken are real, of course. But the narrative, the story surrounding those horrible scenes were contrived by Allied leaders, and the creation of that narrative had one. singular. powerful goal: to complete the demonization of Germans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Existential Confusion
    SC,

    My father never saw anyone being murdered, he would have intervened. As you say, he saw the aftermath. As far as film crews preceding troops, I can not say it did or didn't happen at other camps, but it didn't happen at Dora-Mittelbau - my father's unit fought heir way there - they were the first in.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @alexander
    Dear Mr Croesus,


    I have already watched Gideon Levy at the press club last spring as well as every other speaker who was present, and I have read most of what he has written over the last ten years, as well as Amira Hass, Akivar Eldar,Uri Avnery, and a host of other writers on the topic. I have read Benny Morris, Tony Judt, Norman Finkelstein, Mearshimer and Walt, President Carter, Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Alice Walker,Judge Richard Goldstone,Phyllis Bennis, Dr Mads Gilbert, David Sheen, and Max Blumenthal. I have read, watched and listened to dozens of individuals, journalists, historians and intellectuals speak on this issue, to this issue....to learn the facts. viewpoints and positions of many thoughtful intelligent people....I certainly hope to continue to do so....

    Let me say this quite clearly to you, to "see" if I understand" your" position...

    Your argument, Mr Croesus, is your belief that the attitude exists that since the "Holocaust happened to the Jewish people" they can now "do whatever they want", Having endured such a horrific historical tragedy they are now EXEMPT from the "behavioral, legal , ethical and moral norms" that bind the rest of us to human decency... or rather your argument is that "they feel that way".!

    So your "strategy" is to revise history to "undo" the Holocaust and disarm the "Jewish people"of the singular weapon they use time and time again, to "blackmail", coerce, and manipulate much of western civilization to do what they want.....is that a correct synopsis ?

    Is that correct, Mr Croesus ? Your reference to Mr Paul Eisen would indicate this to be so.

    Your goal, then, to counter the prevailing "dogma" that "the Jewish people are the true and only real victims of history" is to , in effect, dislodge the centrality of the Holocaust from the moorings of "our" collective historical narrative ....to in effect displace it...and erase it !

    This, you surmise ,will deliver civilization from the baleful and mendacious clutches of world jewry?

    Which is what Hitler tried to do, Nazism tried to do yet failed that time around....but if you are able to somehow redirect the tragedy of the holocaust onto the "German people" and steal it away from the Jews you can win this 'great struggle" once and for all !

    Is this correct also?

    So the(heroic) task you have set out for yourself is to "pull back the curtain" once and for all on the "Great Holocaust hoax" and dissolve it from the materiality of western consciousness?

    Before I go forward and address you with " my concerns" or what your fraudulently refer to as my "agenda" I would like to be sure that this is indeed yours...


    I await your reply.....

    the last first:

    Before I go forward and address you with ” my concerns” or what your fraudulently refer to as my “agenda”

    Mr. Croesus is guilty of having formed an opinion of your agenda, Alexander. Mr. Croesus surmises from your writing that you are an advocate for justice for the Palestinian people. Mr. Croesus surmises that the approach you have crafted is to create an equivalence between what you assess to be the goals of Nazism and what you assess to be the goals of zionism.

    Whether that conclusion is “fraudulent” or otherwise, it is what Mr. Croesus believes to be your “agenda.”

    Your argument . . . is your belief that the attitude exists that since the “Holocaust happened to the Jewish people” they can now “do whatever they want”, Having endured such a horrific historical tragedy they are now EXEMPT from the “behavioral, legal , ethical and moral norms” that bind the rest of us to human decency… or rather your argument is that “they feel that way”.!

    Attributing those beliefs to “Mr Croesus” is inaccurate.
    Those statements and beliefs were explicitly and repeatedly articulated by Golda Meier, Gideon Levy, Gilad Atzmon, Paul Eisen, Avigail Abarbanel and others. Mr. Croesus has never been to Israel, therefore must rely on those who are there.

    So your “strategy” is to revise history to “undo” the Holocaust and disarm the “Jewish people”of the singular weapon they use time and time again, to “blackmail”, coerce, and manipulate much of western civilization to do what they want…..is that a correct synopsis ?

    Not quite correct. Mr. Croesus’ strategy, believed to be a fair and equitable approach, is to tell the whole and non-propagandized truth of the wars in Europe.
    Yes Mr. Croesus does seek to
    “disarm the ‘Jewish people’ ” of the singular weapon they use time and time again, to “blackmail”, coerce, and manipulate much of western civilization to do what they want etc.,”

    or at least that perception of the Jewish people as has been created by Abe Foxman and the like, and undercut their ability to “blackmail, coerce and manipulate,” etc.

    Two points:
    First, David Biale’s “The Cultures of the Jews” offers an explanation of how the notion of “perpetual victimization” took hold among the “Jewish people” and how it is obviously and dangerously distorted.

    Second, one public intellectual whom I greatly respect, Hillary Mann Leverett, is among those Jewish people who maintain that Israel maintains it ‘special relationship’ to the USA by means of that holocaust narrative, which is harmful to both the Jewish people and American national interests, not to mention the Palestinian people.

    Your goal, then, to counter the prevailing “dogma” that “the Jewish people are the true and only real victims of history” is to , in effect, dislodge the centrality of the Holocaust from the moorings of “our” collective historical narrative ….to in effect displace it…and erase it !

    With you up until “erase it.”
    Displace it, yes. Erase it, no.
    More like re-proportion it: get a true picture of events from a basis in fact, not hysteria, emotion, hasbara, propaganda, and Hollywood.

    This, you surmise ,will deliver civilization from the baleful and mendacious clutches of world jewry?

    Bit of charged rhetoric in there, Alexander, but it contains a kernel of truth.
    If Germany were “delivered” from the “mendacious clutches” of holocaust guilt, perhaps Germany would refrain from delivering submarines to Israel that are nuclear capable and with which Israel can thereby threaten the people of Gaza from sea, in addition to land and air.

    Which is what Hitler tried to do, Nazism tried to do yet failed that time around…

    .

    I suspect a trap in here.
    70 years has demonstrated that the very mention of “Hitler” and “Nazism” is accompanied by distortion of the goals and means of the German people. Mr. Croesus insists that the whole story of what “Nazism and Hitler” tried to accomplish demands to be told fully, factually, and fairly.

    but if you are able to somehow redirect the tragedy of the holocaust onto the “German people” and steal it away from the Jews you can win this ‘great struggle” once and for all !Is this correct also?

    Once again, slightly strident in rhetoric and off-kilter in its absolutist terms.
    The facts about the suffering of the German (and Japanese) people — civilians and later unarmed former combatants– are verifiable. The stories of the fire bombings, rapes, starvation, population transfer of millions, forced labor etc. are not false.
    On the other hand, the stories of “soap and lampshades,” and “showers that are gas chambers” are not verifiable, and to the best of my knowledge there is no evidence that Jewish people died in Allied firebombing in Germany nor of mass rapes of Jewish women by Germans.

    So the(heroic) task you have set out for yourself is to “pull back the curtain” once and for all on the “Great Holocaust hoax” and dissolve it from the materiality of western consciousness?

    There’s an old, old movie, Hell is for Heroes. I’m no hero. If I were a hero I would make my identity known as do Phil Giraldi, Gilad Atzmon, Andrew Bacevich, Flynt and Hillary Leverett and others whom I admire for their public courage.

    I hide behind “Croesus,” the king who lost his kingdom because he misinterpreted the oracle, much as American leaders misinterpret, indeed bastardize history.

    It seems obvious that the USA is on a catastrophically wrong path. Croesus-like, it makes policy and takes action based on “manufactured narratives,” “manufactured crises,” “manufactured consent,” even “manufactured reality.”
    Those terms are another way of saying Lies.
    George Washington’s Farewell Address is a compelling document. It does not endorse lying, much less killing other people in mass numbers, in the conduct of the great nation he pledged “his life, his fortune, his sacred honor” to establish.

    To return to your parting statement, which Mr. Croesus placed at the beginning of this comment, regarding what Mr. Croesus believes to be Alexander’s agenda:
    Mr. Croesus believes Alexander is passionate in the attempt to advocate for the Palestinian people. Gilad Atzmon maintains a running argument about leftists and anti-zionists and pro-anti-zionists that, frankly, makes Mr. Croesus’s eyes glaze over. I think the argument saps the strength of those who are genuinely appalled at the conditions Palestinians are forced to endure and who seek to change their situation.
    Mr. Croesus has been told — warned, even — that attempting to undercut the holocaust narrative is likewise an unhelpful distraction from the pressing project of freeing the Palestinian people.

    As Mr. Croesus sees it, the Occupation has persisted for 70 years. Nothing else has worked to change the situation. As Dr. Faurisson stated, the holocaust narrative is the “sword and shield,” the “great wall” behind which Israelis enjoy impunity to kill and oppress Palestinians.

    Mr. Croesus echoes Mr. Reagan: “Tear down this wall.”
    Tear down the false narrative of holocaustism.

    Your turn, Alexander.
    Take your best shot.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    S2C, what you need to realise is that you were not an "an eye witness" to what actually happened to Jewish people and many others in Germany either. You were not an eye witness to what Der Fuhrer said or intended. You depend on documentation as much as anyone else, and you dismiss the evidence of history when it does not suit your narrative as fictitious.

    These continuous salvos from you regarding "re-proportioning" the Holocaust, do more harm than good. They poison the well of truly humanitarian intentions for people like Alexander.

    I asked you, in fact offered to pay for your trip to Jerusalem and visit the Yad Vashem. You declined. That is fine; it therefore negates your claim of any objective, comprehensive study of the heart-rending Event.

    Individual Jews and Israelis do not remember the Holocaust for the nefarious purpose of extracting benefits (Do the various Jewish politically inclined groups use it to gain a voice? Absolutely! But so do many minority groups. Its a feature of our political landscape). Mostly it is to remind ourselves, humanity at large, what can happen if we let the Beast out.

    Jews and Armenians in Jerusalem commemorate the Armenian Holocaust.

    http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Memorial.96/current_category.67/memorials_detail.html

    Jews regularlty travel to Cambodia to commemorate the Killing Fields in Cambodia (http://www.jewishtimesasia.org/community-spotlight-topmenu-43/cambodia/281-cambodia-communities/1235-whats-jewish-about-cambodia ).

    There are many other such memorials in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

    Point is, you are wrong.
    , @alexander
    Mr Croesus.

    I see you have most graciously EXTRACTED you "Holocaust never happened" tract ,or at least modified it ' now that you realize how kinda stupid it is....that is a positive ...maybe we can move forward on a more constructive note....

    A full and honest recounting of the horrors that befell ALL people during WWII is always welcome, but the fact that nearly sixty million people died and almost all of western civilization was destroyed as a result of this war, has not gone unnoticed by me, nor has it by most of humanity.

    I recall reading in the New York Book Review four years ago that in excess of 15 million people died from a deliberate plan of Mass Starvation by Stalin, in Belarus. Pretty gruesome, no?

    There seems to be no shortage of awfulness or unconscionable acts that occurred during that war.... which ones we choose to shine the light on, at any given moment, may in the end be a political decision, not a moral one....But it shouldn't be.

    The horror of war is indeed just that..a horror.....

    ..The pernicious" defrauding" of the United States into the Iraq War, primarily by Bibi , Israel and its coterie of Neocons , has yet to be met with the justice that should be served upon it.

    Had we, in fact, been attacked by Iraq ,on 9-11, had it, in fact, been "Saddam's Anthrax" in Senator Leahy's and Tom Brokaw's office and had our intelligence on an "imminent threat" been concrete, our recourse to war would have had real justification...

    But it was all Fraud, Mr Croesus, horrible, evil fraud !

    I see that "defrauding" as a supreme act of terrorism against the decency and good will of the American People (many of them Jewish) and as an inescapable one against the millions of innocent Iraqi people who have suffered and died for it....

    But that doesn't propel me to revisit history imposing that "defrauding" on all our actions .

    I disagree with you ,profoundly, on the first Iraq War....Iraq's invasion and attempted annexation of Kuwait was REAL...it was not a Fraud , a Hoax, or a Delusion..
    you can make an argument that the war we fought there was unjustified, but not that the catalyst for it was a" fake" one.

    Sometimes, we look at recent events in history, the mistakes we made,and the lies we were told to make them, and revisit ALL of history through the filter of that "defrauding",.

    I understand the tendency...if we were duped now...why hasn't every war we have fought been a duping , or every action we've taken, as a nation been a duping too?

    you can go there if you want to, Mr Croesus...but that's not my thing.

    There shouldn't be any defrauding of the American people AT ALL...certainly not towards war .

    The point about Palestine is that for the first twenty years of American's perception of the birth of Israel...is that there were NO palestinians there at all... Nada , Not a one..

    "It was a land without a people for a people without a land"

    Why was this so?.... why was a great curtain pulled over "the Nakba"...Why was "the ethnic cleansing of Palestine" so feverishly and fervently erased from American perceptions and American consciousness ?

    because the Holocaust never Happened?.., Mr Croesus ?...OF COURSE NOT...but precisely because it DID !

    The Jewish people in the founding of Israel could not BE SEEN to have committed such horrors to the Palestinians.... after condemning, with enormous and justifiable vehemence, it having happened to them.

    That is the locus of MY argument, and always has been...that the "ethnic cleansing " of Palestinians was and is no LESS pernicious than the "ethnic cleansing" of the Jews.

    it is not out of a "specific affiliation toward Palestinians or a dislike of Jewish people that the statement is made...

    Its made out of the condemnation of all" holocausts" to anyone.

    I do not need to "rewrite history" to find that center...its always been right there !
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Rurik

    also culture-cide:
     
    Just like Dresden was. They didn't just want to slaughter (burn alive) the people of Dresden, they wanted to destroy for all time the ancient Baroque culture which was an iconic expression of those people and their history.

    Just like they way they loot and destroy the museums of Mesopotamia and now Syria, trying to wipe out history and truth.

    Like the burning of the Library of Alexandria, destroying sublime knowledge and culture if it isn't their knowledge and culture. They want to rewrite history to conform to the tenants or their egocentric (to say the least) tribal narrative. And destroy any and all evidence that is inconvenient to that narrative.

    Rurik,

    The massive “culture -cide or “cultural extermination” that went on in Iraq, that is occurring even as we speak in Syria and Palestine…..Of what possible Interest can that serve the American people ?

    How am I (or you ) better served knowing that the architecture, monuments, artistic creations and artifacts that trace a history and a civilization back thousands of years have been eradicated?

    Isn’t it, by implication, an assault on all of world culture ?

    Isn’t it, in the end, an assault on us, too?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    They aren't just destroying and looting the artifacts of Iraq and Syria per se, (two of the most important treasure troves at the center of the history of human civilization) but they're trying to destroy our history. 'Our' being the uniquely human story.

    It is akin to the infamous burning of the Library of Alexandria, because they're tying to wipe out knowledge itself, so they can replace it with an ignorance that suits their terrible agenda.
    It is an unprecedented crime against truth and our collective ancient legacy.

    I'll never forget the feeling in my gut when I first heard they were looting the Museum of Baghdad, (while protecting the oil fields). The curators were saying that the people behind the looting knew what they were doing and knew what they were looking for. Who doubts that today many of the most precious of those artifacts have found their way into private collections in London and Tel Aviv?

    Orwell was right about everything
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • The systematic internment and murder of Jews by the Nazis is fact. My father was with the 3rd Armored Division when they liberated Dora-Mittelbau concentration camp, on April 11th, 1945.

    Whether the numbers associated with the holocaust are inflated I don’t know, I am not the trusting type, but I know that what my father saw at Dora-Mittelbau scared him for life.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    EC, did your father see with his own eyes in real time "Jews being systematically murdered?"

    Or did your father see emaciated people and corpses of persons who died relatively recently?

    No doubt the sight "scared him for life."

    A close relation is a psychotherapist who specializes -- volunteers, even -- to assist people who have experienced such life-changing and "scarring for life" traumas. They are embedded in the brain and the psyche. I have no idea what techniques my relation uses to help to heal these scarred souls, but I suspect that a form of reality therapy is part of it: attempting to examine the meanings applied to what was seen seems important: challenging the conclusions one leaps to in the process of experiencing that trauma --

    We have all seen pictures of the heaps of bodies that, we have been told, American or British forces saw when the liberated camps.

    The DVD "Imaginary Witness: Hollywood and the Holocaust" was among the first things that, for me, "pulled back the curtain" on holocaustism.

    According to the DVD, Allied leaders entered the camps with film crews from Hollywood, and before anyone else arrived. The pictures taken are real, of course. But the narrative, the story surrounding those horrible scenes were contrived by Allied leaders, and the creation of that narrative had one. singular. powerful goal: to complete the demonization of Germans.
    , @Art
    “ but I know that what my father saw at Dora-Mittelbau scared him for life”

    Would your father be horrified by what the Israeli Jews are doing in Gaza and the West bank – how about you? How is their fascism different from German fascism?

    There have been horrific things done all throughout history – shouldn’t we be about stopping the current evil?

    The Jews have used the wrong done them - to do more wrong.

    There is no question but that the Zionist Jews are taking mankind backwards.

    You need to get your back up about it!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus

    It’s genocide
     
    It's also culture-cide:

    How zionists looted books -- 70,000 or more -- from Palestinian libraries
    The Economist January 2013

    The screen flickered with images of Palestinians forced out of their homes in the 1948 war. On camera, refugees recounted their ordeals and lamented the loss of something precious: their books. . .

    "The Great Book Robbery", a 2012 documentary about the looting of some 70,000 books from private Palestinian libraries during the 1948 war. It vividly chronicles the large-scale cultural pillage and dispossession of Palestinian literary archives.

    Directed by Benny Brunner, a Dutch-Israeli immigrant and self-described former Zionist, the film left the 40 or so attendees in awe. Adding to the poignance, the audience was gathered in a centre named for a famous Palestinian poet and scholar whose own book collection had been looted.
    “Farewell, my books! How much midnight oil did I burn with you…” Al Sakakini wrote these words shortly after Jewish soldiers swept through

    Jerusalem’s affluent Arab neighbourhoods of
    Qatamon,
    Musrara and
    Baq’a,

    “collecting” 30,000 books, newspapers and documents.

    The haul included works of immeasurable historical or religious significance, such as hand-written copies of the Koran and Hadith, emblazoned with gold leaf.

    Some 40,000 other books were seized from abandoned homes in urban centres such as
    Nazareth,
    Jaffa and
    Haifa.

    In writing, Al Sakakini wonders if his treasured possessions were looted or burnt. “Were you transferred, with due respect, to a private or public library?” he asks, or “did you find your way to the grocer, your pages wrapping onions?”

    image: http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/290-width/images/2013/01/blogs/prospero/20130126_bkp504.jpg


    The theft took place largely unnoticed amidst the tragedy and chaos of the war. Ilan Pappé, an Israeli historian who features prominently in the documentary, says the looters were either individual thieves who took their spoils home, or official operatives who took the books to Israel’s National Library, where at least 6,000 of remain today. Many of the books were recycled as paper; others were marked “AP” for abandoned property. Part of the tragedy, the documentary reveals, is that Palestinian prisoners were forced to pillage books from each other’s homes. In one especially moving scene a Palestinian named Mohammad Batrawi recalled being forced to loot his own home. “The appropriation...of the spiritual essence of the Palestinians is...no different than the appropriation of the land,” observes Mr Pappé. The film ends with Batrawi calling for peace between Israelis and Palestinians.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2013/01/looting-books-palestinian-libraries#oh8xD6OhiYpyyQaL.99
     

    also culture-cide:

    Just like Dresden was. They didn’t just want to slaughter (burn alive) the people of Dresden, they wanted to destroy for all time the ancient Baroque culture which was an iconic expression of those people and their history.

    Just like they way they loot and destroy the museums of Mesopotamia and now Syria, trying to wipe out history and truth.

    Like the burning of the Library of Alexandria, destroying sublime knowledge and culture if it isn’t their knowledge and culture. They want to rewrite history to conform to the tenants or their egocentric (to say the least) tribal narrative. And destroy any and all evidence that is inconvenient to that narrative.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Rurik,

    The massive "culture -cide or "cultural extermination" that went on in Iraq, that is occurring even as we speak in Syria and Palestine.....Of what possible Interest can that serve the American people ?

    How am I (or you ) better served knowing that the architecture, monuments, artistic creations and artifacts that trace a history and a civilization back thousands of years have been eradicated?

    Isn't it, by implication, an assault on all of world culture ?

    Isn't it, in the end, an assault on us, too?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Dear Mr Croesus,

    I have already watched Gideon Levy at the press club last spring as well as every other speaker who was present, and I have read most of what he has written over the last ten years, as well as Amira Hass, Akivar Eldar,Uri Avnery, and a host of other writers on the topic. I have read Benny Morris, Tony Judt, Norman Finkelstein, Mearshimer and Walt, President Carter, Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Alice Walker,Judge Richard Goldstone,Phyllis Bennis, Dr Mads Gilbert, David Sheen, and Max Blumenthal. I have read, watched and listened to dozens of individuals, journalists, historians and intellectuals speak on this issue, to this issue….to learn the facts. viewpoints and positions of many thoughtful intelligent people….I certainly hope to continue to do so….

    Let me say this quite clearly to you, to “see” if I understand” your” position…

    Your argument, Mr Croesus, is your belief that the attitude exists that since the “Holocaust happened to the Jewish people” they can now “do whatever they want”, Having endured such a horrific historical tragedy they are now EXEMPT from the “behavioral, legal , ethical and moral norms” that bind the rest of us to human decency… or rather your argument is that “they feel that way”.!

    So your “strategy” is to revise history to “undo” the Holocaust and disarm the “Jewish people”of the singular weapon they use time and time again, to “blackmail”, coerce, and manipulate much of western civilization to do what they want…..is that a correct synopsis ?

    Is that correct, Mr Croesus ? Your reference to Mr Paul Eisen would indicate this to be so.

    Your goal, then, to counter the prevailing “dogma” that “the Jewish people are the true and only real victims of history” is to , in effect, dislodge the centrality of the Holocaust from the moorings of “our” collective historical narrative ….to in effect displace it…and erase it !

    This, you surmise ,will deliver civilization from the baleful and mendacious clutches of world jewry?

    Which is what Hitler tried to do, Nazism tried to do yet failed that time around….but if you are able to somehow redirect the tragedy of the holocaust onto the “German people” and steal it away from the Jews you can win this ‘great struggle” once and for all !

    Is this correct also?

    So the(heroic) task you have set out for yourself is to “pull back the curtain” once and for all on the “Great Holocaust hoax” and dissolve it from the materiality of western consciousness?

    Before I go forward and address you with ” my concerns” or what your fraudulently refer to as my “agenda” I would like to be sure that this is indeed yours…

    I await your reply…..

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    the last first:

    Before I go forward and address you with ” my concerns” or what your fraudulently refer to as my “agenda”
     
    Mr. Croesus is guilty of having formed an opinion of your agenda, Alexander. Mr. Croesus surmises from your writing that you are an advocate for justice for the Palestinian people. Mr. Croesus surmises that the approach you have crafted is to create an equivalence between what you assess to be the goals of Nazism and what you assess to be the goals of zionism.

    Whether that conclusion is "fraudulent" or otherwise, it is what Mr. Croesus believes to be your "agenda."

    Your argument . . . is your belief that the attitude exists that since the “Holocaust happened to the Jewish people” they can now “do whatever they want”, Having endured such a horrific historical tragedy they are now EXEMPT from the “behavioral, legal , ethical and moral norms” that bind the rest of us to human decency… or rather your argument is that “they feel that way”.!
     
    Attributing those beliefs to "Mr Croesus" is inaccurate.
    Those statements and beliefs were explicitly and repeatedly articulated by Golda Meier, Gideon Levy, Gilad Atzmon, Paul Eisen, Avigail Abarbanel and others. Mr. Croesus has never been to Israel, therefore must rely on those who are there.

    So your “strategy” is to revise history to “undo” the Holocaust and disarm the “Jewish people”of the singular weapon they use time and time again, to “blackmail”, coerce, and manipulate much of western civilization to do what they want…..is that a correct synopsis ?
     
    Not quite correct. Mr. Croesus’ strategy, believed to be a fair and equitable approach, is to tell the whole and non-propagandized truth of the wars in Europe.
    Yes Mr. Croesus does seek to
    "disarm the 'Jewish people' " of the singular weapon they use time and time again, to “blackmail”, coerce, and manipulate much of western civilization to do what they want etc.,”

    or at least that perception of the Jewish people as has been created by Abe Foxman and the like, and undercut their ability to "blackmail, coerce and manipulate," etc.

    Two points:
    First, David Biale's "The Cultures of the Jews" offers an explanation of how the notion of "perpetual victimization" took hold among the "Jewish people" and how it is obviously and dangerously distorted.

    Second, one public intellectual whom I greatly respect, Hillary Mann Leverett, is among those Jewish people who maintain that Israel maintains it ‘special relationship’ to the USA by means of that holocaust narrative, which is harmful to both the Jewish people and American national interests, not to mention the Palestinian people.

    Your goal, then, to counter the prevailing “dogma” that “the Jewish people are the true and only real victims of history” is to , in effect, dislodge the centrality of the Holocaust from the moorings of “our” collective historical narrative ….to in effect displace it…and erase it !
     
    With you up until "erase it.”
    Displace it, yes. Erase it, no.
    More like re-proportion it: get a true picture of events from a basis in fact, not hysteria, emotion, hasbara, propaganda, and Hollywood.

    This, you surmise ,will deliver civilization from the baleful and mendacious clutches of world jewry?
     
    Bit of charged rhetoric in there, Alexander, but it contains a kernel of truth.
    If Germany were "delivered" from the "mendacious clutches" of holocaust guilt, perhaps Germany would refrain from delivering submarines to Israel that are nuclear capable and with which Israel can thereby threaten the people of Gaza from sea, in addition to land and air.

    Which is what Hitler tried to do, Nazism tried to do yet failed that time around…
     
    .

    I suspect a trap in here.
    70 years has demonstrated that the very mention of "Hitler" and "Nazism" is accompanied by distortion of the goals and means of the German people. Mr. Croesus insists that the whole story of what “Nazism and Hitler” tried to accomplish demands to be told fully, factually, and fairly.

    but if you are able to somehow redirect the tragedy of the holocaust onto the “German people” and steal it away from the Jews you can win this ‘great struggle” once and for all !Is this correct also?
     
    Once again, slightly strident in rhetoric and off-kilter in its absolutist terms.
    The facts about the suffering of the German (and Japanese) people -- civilians and later unarmed former combatants-- are verifiable. The stories of the fire bombings, rapes, starvation, population transfer of millions, forced labor etc. are not false.
    On the other hand, the stories of "soap and lampshades," and "showers that are gas chambers" are not verifiable, and to the best of my knowledge there is no evidence that Jewish people died in Allied firebombing in Germany nor of mass rapes of Jewish women by Germans.

    So the(heroic) task you have set out for yourself is to “pull back the curtain” once and for all on the “Great Holocaust hoax” and dissolve it from the materiality of western consciousness?
     
    There's an old, old movie, Hell is for Heroes. I'm no hero. If I were a hero I would make my identity known as do Phil Giraldi, Gilad Atzmon, Andrew Bacevich, Flynt and Hillary Leverett and others whom I admire for their public courage.

    I hide behind "Croesus," the king who lost his kingdom because he misinterpreted the oracle, much as American leaders misinterpret, indeed bastardize history.

    It seems obvious that the USA is on a catastrophically wrong path. Croesus-like, it makes policy and takes action based on "manufactured narratives," "manufactured crises," “manufactured consent,” even "manufactured reality."
    Those terms are another way of saying Lies.
    George Washington's Farewell Address is a compelling document. It does not endorse lying, much less killing other people in mass numbers, in the conduct of the great nation he pledged "his life, his fortune, his sacred honor" to establish.

    To return to your parting statement, which Mr. Croesus placed at the beginning of this comment, regarding what Mr. Croesus believes to be Alexander's agenda:
    Mr. Croesus believes Alexander is passionate in the attempt to advocate for the Palestinian people. Gilad Atzmon maintains a running argument about leftists and anti-zionists and pro-anti-zionists that, frankly, makes Mr. Croesus's eyes glaze over. I think the argument saps the strength of those who are genuinely appalled at the conditions Palestinians are forced to endure and who seek to change their situation.
    Mr. Croesus has been told -- warned, even -- that attempting to undercut the holocaust narrative is likewise an unhelpful distraction from the pressing project of freeing the Palestinian people.

    As Mr. Croesus sees it, the Occupation has persisted for 70 years. Nothing else has worked to change the situation. As Dr. Faurisson stated, the holocaust narrative is the "sword and shield," the "great wall" behind which Israelis enjoy impunity to kill and oppress Palestinians.

    Mr. Croesus echoes Mr. Reagan: "Tear down this wall."
    Tear down the false narrative of holocaustism.

    Your turn, Alexander.
    Take your best shot.
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  • Atzmon explained how he re-cast the concept of PTSD; he calls it pre-traumatic stress disorder. It’s learned/taught behavior that has no basis in real experience.

    A must see is the documentary Defamation It is directed by Yoav Shamir, an Israeli who travels the world asking what constitutes anti-Semitism in modern times.

    http://youtu.be/OR-aPeOAtG0

    NB – If there are issues with the video, perhaps someone could provide a link to a better one.

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  • @alexander
    Sorry Mr Croesus ,

    You can believe until you are blue in the face how wonderful the fuhrer was, how the holocaust never happened and how Nazism is your Utopian wet dream come true...

    That's your choice.....just stop trying to foist it on me !

    Alexander, I don’t pluck things out of the air to “believe;” I try to follow the evidence.

    If your agenda is to somehow aid the Palestinians to free themselves from 100 years of oppressions, you might want to consider that you are accomplishing just the opposite.

    Consider what Gideon Levy said from the National Press Club last Spring:

    I’ll just give the three principles which enable us Israelis to live so easily with this brutal reality. A) Most of the Israelis, if not all of them, deeply believe that we are the chosen people. And if we are the chosen people, we have the right to do whatever we want. B) There were more brutal occupations in history. There were even longer occupations in history, even though the Israeli occupation gets to quite a nice record. But there was never in history an occupation in which the occupier presented himself as the victim—not only the victim, but the only victim around. This also enables any Israeli to live in peace, because we are the victims. . . .

    We say victimization, we say chosen people. When I say victimization, it goes without saying, we have to mention the Holocaust and the unforgettable Mrs. Golda Meir that the American Jewry had exported to Israel. She said once—this unforgettable woman—that after the Holocaust the Jews have the right to do whatever they want. http://www.israellobbyus.org/transcripts/4.2Gideon_Levy2.htm

    Every time you say “Remember the holocaust! a thousand weeds sprout.
    Ten thousand Israelis say — or reinforce in their minds) “I was a victim of the Nazis! I can do whatever I want! Seventeen-year olds from Brooklyn who are now settlers in Israel call themselves holocaust survivors and not only claim but act as if they can do whatever they want, including kill Palestinian children.

    You enable that behavior when you continually reinforce the holocaust narrative that was created and is used by people like Benjamin Netanyahu to keep Israeli Jews in a state of psychological disequilibrium, because it serves their political purposes. You are not doing any favors for the Palestinian people by reinforcing a (bogus) narrative.

    Several years ago members of Israel’s IDF spoke at Kent State University. I’m a little fuzzy on the details but something like this happened: A Palestinian man called out from the audience something about Israelis oppressing Palestinians. He didn’t say anything bigoted, racist, ugly, foul; he didn’t throw anything, hurt anybody.

    He was booted out of the meeting hall.

    The newspapers went crazy. The man was condemned as a deranged antisemite.

    Numerous Jewish persons and leaders of Jewish groups wrote and complained about the outburst.

    One letter to the newspaper was noteworthy: A Jewish man wrote, “You have to understand that we Jews have post-traumatic stress syndrome. If we feel threatened we react violently. We can’t help it. We were victims.”

    I think that’s bullshit.

    Gilad Atzmon and Helen Thomas discussed Atzmon’s book, The Wandering Who” a few years back. Atzmon explained how he re-cast the concept of PTSD; he calls it pre-traumatic stress disorder. It’s learned/taught behavior that has no basis in real experience.
    When otherwise well-meaning people reinforce those concepts, they are perpetuating the psychopathologization and infantilization of Jewish people and condemning Palestinians to ever more years of suffering at the hands of Israeli Jews who have given themselves permission to avoid the hard work of growing up.

    Israelis have made an industry of having “post traumatic stress syndrome.” It’s a get-out-of-jail-free card. They don’t have to do the hard work of shaping their character to live sane and wholesome lives. Instead, as Avigail Abarbanel has described, Israeli society has devolved into psychopathology.

    As Abarbanel noted, Israeli society is “not right in the head;” it has a “national psychosis.” “People are not kind to each other,” she writes; “they come together only when there is war.”

    Wolfgang Samuel grew up during war years in Germany. He collected the stories of 27 others like himself and produced The War of Our Childhood: Memories of World War II.

    Those memories include

    “. . .perilous and tragic moments–school children in Leuna who are sent home during an air raid but are strafed as moving targets; fathers who exist only as distant figures, returning to their families long after the war–or not at all; mothers who are raped and tortured; families who are forced into a seemingly endless relocation that replicates the terrors of war itself. [The book] captur[es] such experiences from nearly every region of Germany and involving people of every socio-economic class . . .”

    The most significant thing Samuels wrote is this:

    “My focus . . .is on the astounding ability of a generation of German children to emerge from debilitating circumstances as sane and productive human beings.”

    How is it that German children could become “sane and productive,” but Israelis are in a state of perpetual pre-traumatic stress that they feel requires them to lash out?

    Are Palestinians going to be able to normalize their lives as long as Israelis reinforce their pre-traumatic stress disorder?

    How can Israeli behaviour be changed to put an end to the national psychosis?

    Is going after the Holocaust a worthwhile endeavor for the goal of liberating Palestine?

    Paul Eisen thinks it is. In “Holocaust Wars” He quotes revisionist Robert Faurisson:

    Zionists truly fear the weapons of the poor (children’s stones, their slingshots like that of David against the giant Goliath, the suicide attacks) and all that may endanger persons and business; they fear a demeaning of their brand image. But they are above all apprehensive of “the poor man’s atomic bomb”, that is, the disintegration, by historical revisionism, of the lie of the gas chambers, the genocide and the six million; they dread this weapon that kills no-one but that would not fail, if properly used to explode their big lie like a bag of hot air… to lose the “Holocaust” is to lose the sword and the shield of Israel as well as a formidable instrument of political and financial blackmail.

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  • @SolontoCroesus

    Mr Croesus insists the holocaust never happened at all…and that Nazism was never an ideology based on supremacism, lebensraum,conquest and empire.
     
    What SolontoCroesus said was a lot more nuanced than that.
    Go back and read what was written, not what's squeezed aus dem Arsche

    he claims that making an equivalence with Jewish supremacism today and Nazi supremacism of 1938 is wrong…i say its spot on !
     
    As my Italian Aunt used to say, "I right, you wrong."
    You, Alexander, are wrong on the facts and wrong on the analysis.

    Ask your father about the rape of German women
    Ask your father about the destruction of 75% of Germany
    Ask your father about the forced "population transfer" of 12- 15-million ethnic Germans
    Ask your father about the confessions-by-torture extracted from Germans in Nuremberg "trials"
    Ask your father about "de-Nazification-by-torture" of German citizens that went on for five years if not more post-German surrender

    Or better yet, consult someone who was there and in a less shitty frame of mind than your father: Freda Utley's The High Cost of Vengeance

    Ask your father if he's ever noticed the relationship between Henry Morgenthau, Jr. who was FDR's right hand man from 1936 onward in planning a war against Germany, funneling money to Russia, abetted by the Russian spy in his office, Harry Dexter White;
    and the Morgenthau Plan that was carried out against the German people for over two years AFTER German surrender, until US military leaders were sickened by its barbarity and put a stop to it.

    There is this equivalence between the German people and the Palestinians:
    Zionist Jews planned and carried out the ethnic cleansing of both of their peoples and cultures, and devastated both of their lands and built structures.


    Other than that,

    Spot on


    !

    Sorry Mr Croesus ,

    You can believe until you are blue in the face how wonderful the fuhrer was, how the holocaust never happened and how Nazism is your Utopian wet dream come true…

    That’s your choice…..just stop trying to foist it on me !

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Alexander, I don't pluck things out of the air to "believe;" I try to follow the evidence.

    If your agenda is to somehow aid the Palestinians to free themselves from 100 years of oppressions, you might want to consider that you are accomplishing just the opposite.

    Consider what Gideon Levy said from the National Press Club last Spring:

    I’ll just give the three principles which enable us Israelis to live so easily with this brutal reality. A) Most of the Israelis, if not all of them, deeply believe that we are the chosen people. And if we are the chosen people, we have the right to do whatever we want. B) There were more brutal occupations in history. There were even longer occupations in history, even though the Israeli occupation gets to quite a nice record. But there was never in history an occupation in which the occupier presented himself as the victim—not only the victim, but the only victim around. This also enables any Israeli to live in peace, because we are the victims. . . .

    We say victimization, we say chosen people. When I say victimization, it goes without saying, we have to mention the Holocaust and the unforgettable Mrs. Golda Meir that the American Jewry had exported to Israel. She said once—this unforgettable woman—that after the Holocaust the Jews have the right to do whatever they want. http://www.israellobbyus.org/transcripts/4.2Gideon_Levy2.htm
     
    Every time you say "Remember the holocaust! a thousand weeds sprout.
    Ten thousand Israelis say -- or reinforce in their minds) "I was a victim of the Nazis! I can do whatever I want! Seventeen-year olds from Brooklyn who are now settlers in Israel call themselves holocaust survivors and not only claim but act as if they can do whatever they want, including kill Palestinian children.

    You enable that behavior when you continually reinforce the holocaust narrative that was created and is used by people like Benjamin Netanyahu to keep Israeli Jews in a state of psychological disequilibrium, because it serves their political purposes. You are not doing any favors for the Palestinian people by reinforcing a (bogus) narrative.

    ---

    Several years ago members of Israel's IDF spoke at Kent State University. I'm a little fuzzy on the details but something like this happened: A Palestinian man called out from the audience something about Israelis oppressing Palestinians. He didn't say anything bigoted, racist, ugly, foul; he didn't throw anything, hurt anybody.

    He was booted out of the meeting hall.

    The newspapers went crazy. The man was condemned as a deranged antisemite.

    Numerous Jewish persons and leaders of Jewish groups wrote and complained about the outburst.

    One letter to the newspaper was noteworthy: A Jewish man wrote, "You have to understand that we Jews have post-traumatic stress syndrome. If we feel threatened we react violently. We can't help it. We were victims."

    I think that's bullshit.

    Gilad Atzmon and Helen Thomas discussed Atzmon's book, The Wandering Who" a few years back. Atzmon explained how he re-cast the concept of PTSD; he calls it pre-traumatic stress disorder. It's learned/taught behavior that has no basis in real experience.
    When otherwise well-meaning people reinforce those concepts, they are perpetuating the psychopathologization and infantilization of Jewish people and condemning Palestinians to ever more years of suffering at the hands of Israeli Jews who have given themselves permission to avoid the hard work of growing up.

    Israelis have made an industry of having "post traumatic stress syndrome." It's a get-out-of-jail-free card. They don't have to do the hard work of shaping their character to live sane and wholesome lives. Instead, as Avigail Abarbanel has described, Israeli society has devolved into psychopathology.

    As Abarbanel noted, Israeli society is "not right in the head;" it has a "national psychosis." "People are not kind to each other," she writes; "they come together only when there is war."

    Wolfgang Samuel grew up during war years in Germany. He collected the stories of 27 others like himself and produced The War of Our Childhood: Memories of World War II.

    Those memories include

    ". . .perilous and tragic moments--school children in Leuna who are sent home during an air raid but are strafed as moving targets; fathers who exist only as distant figures, returning to their families long after the war--or not at all; mothers who are raped and tortured; families who are forced into a seemingly endless relocation that replicates the terrors of war itself. [The book] captur[es] such experiences from nearly every region of Germany and involving people of every socio-economic class . . ."
     
    The most significant thing Samuels wrote is this:

    "My focus . . .is on the astounding ability of a generation of German children to emerge from debilitating circumstances as sane and productive human beings."
     
    How is it that German children could become "sane and productive," but Israelis are in a state of perpetual pre-traumatic stress that they feel requires them to lash out?

    Are Palestinians going to be able to normalize their lives as long as Israelis reinforce their pre-traumatic stress disorder?

    How can Israeli behaviour be changed to put an end to the national psychosis?

    Is going after the Holocaust a worthwhile endeavor for the goal of liberating Palestine?

    Paul Eisen thinks it is. In “Holocaust Wars” He quotes revisionist Robert Faurisson:

    Zionists truly fear the weapons of the poor (children's stones, their slingshots like that of David against the giant Goliath, the suicide attacks) and all that may endanger persons and business; they fear a demeaning of their brand image. But they are above all apprehensive of "the poor man's atomic bomb", that is, the disintegration, by historical revisionism, of the lie of the gas chambers, the genocide and the six million; they dread this weapon that kills no-one but that would not fail, if properly used to explode their big lie like a bag of hot air… to lose the "Holocaust" is to lose the sword and the shield of Israel as well as a formidable instrument of political and financial blackmail.
     
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • And I thought your parents told you to love Jews.

    Quite true.

    What has that got to do with the facts listed at 100, above?

    Are the facts incorrect? If so, show your evidence.

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  • @Art
    "My central thesis for the past several months has been The holocaust of Palestine today is in every way as brutal and as reprehensible as the Holocaust that happened to the Jewish people in Nazi Germany"

    Sorry Alexander - my bad my error - I apologize big time --- Art

    No worries !

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  • @SolontoCroesus

    Mr Croesus insists the holocaust never happened at all…and that Nazism was never an ideology based on supremacism, lebensraum,conquest and empire.
     
    What SolontoCroesus said was a lot more nuanced than that.
    Go back and read what was written, not what's squeezed aus dem Arsche

    he claims that making an equivalence with Jewish supremacism today and Nazi supremacism of 1938 is wrong…i say its spot on !
     
    As my Italian Aunt used to say, "I right, you wrong."
    You, Alexander, are wrong on the facts and wrong on the analysis.

    Ask your father about the rape of German women
    Ask your father about the destruction of 75% of Germany
    Ask your father about the forced "population transfer" of 12- 15-million ethnic Germans
    Ask your father about the confessions-by-torture extracted from Germans in Nuremberg "trials"
    Ask your father about "de-Nazification-by-torture" of German citizens that went on for five years if not more post-German surrender

    Or better yet, consult someone who was there and in a less shitty frame of mind than your father: Freda Utley's The High Cost of Vengeance

    Ask your father if he's ever noticed the relationship between Henry Morgenthau, Jr. who was FDR's right hand man from 1936 onward in planning a war against Germany, funneling money to Russia, abetted by the Russian spy in his office, Harry Dexter White;
    and the Morgenthau Plan that was carried out against the German people for over two years AFTER German surrender, until US military leaders were sickened by its barbarity and put a stop to it.

    There is this equivalence between the German people and the Palestinians:
    Zionist Jews planned and carried out the ethnic cleansing of both of their peoples and cultures, and devastated both of their lands and built structures.


    Other than that,

    Spot on


    !

    And I thought your parents told you to love Jews. :)

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  • @alexander
    Hi Art,
    did you read what I wrote? or anything I have written?

    My central thesis for the past several months has been The holocaust of Palestine today is in every way as brutal and as reprehensible as the Holocaust that happened to the Jewish people in Nazi Germany......Nothing that was done to the Jews excuses what is being done in Palestine to the Palestinians people...as a matter of fact it makes it more odious and more evil !
    .
    ... .What is it about what I have written in this post or any other that has ever suggested otherwise ?

    Mr Croesus insists the holocaust never happened at all...and that Nazism was never an ideology based on supremacism, lebensraum,conquest and empire.

    he claims that making an equivalence with Jewish supremacism today and Nazi supremacism of 1938 is wrong...i say its spot on !

    And its been my argument all along !

    If you have a problem with it take it up with him .

    Mr Croesus insists the holocaust never happened at all…and that Nazism was never an ideology based on supremacism, lebensraum,conquest and empire.

    What SolontoCroesus said was a lot more nuanced than that.
    Go back and read what was written, not what’s squeezed aus dem Arsche

    he claims that making an equivalence with Jewish supremacism today and Nazi supremacism of 1938 is wrong…i say its spot on !

    As my Italian Aunt used to say, “I right, you wrong.”
    You, Alexander, are wrong on the facts and wrong on the analysis.

    Ask your father about the rape of German women
    Ask your father about the destruction of 75% of Germany
    Ask your father about the forced “population transfer” of 12- 15-million ethnic Germans
    Ask your father about the confessions-by-torture extracted from Germans in Nuremberg “trials”
    Ask your father about “de-Nazification-by-torture” of German citizens that went on for five years if not more post-German surrender

    Or better yet, consult someone who was there and in a less shitty frame of mind than your father: Freda Utley’s The High Cost of Vengeance

    Ask your father if he’s ever noticed the relationship between Henry Morgenthau, Jr. who was FDR’s right hand man from 1936 onward in planning a war against Germany, funneling money to Russia, abetted by the Russian spy in his office, Harry Dexter White;
    and the Morgenthau Plan that was carried out against the German people for over two years AFTER German surrender, until US military leaders were sickened by its barbarity and put a stop to it.

    There is this equivalence between the German people and the Palestinians:
    Zionist Jews planned and carried out the ethnic cleansing of both of their peoples and cultures, and devastated both of their lands and built structures.

    Other than that,

    Spot on

    !

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sherman
    And I thought your parents told you to love Jews. :)
    , @alexander
    Sorry Mr Croesus ,

    You can believe until you are blue in the face how wonderful the fuhrer was, how the holocaust never happened and how Nazism is your Utopian wet dream come true...

    That's your choice.....just stop trying to foist it on me !
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus
    I'm not sure what this means:

    "Russians are not exogenous to this requirement."

    Please clarify ---

    Meaning that they are very much subject to the same rules and limitations (economic sustainability) as the Arabs applying under RoR. In fact I would go further to suggest no more Russian entry for a period of a decade until RoR is fully satisfied.

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  • @alexander
    Hi Art,
    did you read what I wrote? or anything I have written?

    My central thesis for the past several months has been The holocaust of Palestine today is in every way as brutal and as reprehensible as the Holocaust that happened to the Jewish people in Nazi Germany......Nothing that was done to the Jews excuses what is being done in Palestine to the Palestinians people...as a matter of fact it makes it more odious and more evil !
    .
    ... .What is it about what I have written in this post or any other that has ever suggested otherwise ?

    Mr Croesus insists the holocaust never happened at all...and that Nazism was never an ideology based on supremacism, lebensraum,conquest and empire.

    he claims that making an equivalence with Jewish supremacism today and Nazi supremacism of 1938 is wrong...i say its spot on !

    And its been my argument all along !

    If you have a problem with it take it up with him .

    “My central thesis for the past several months has been The holocaust of Palestine today is in every way as brutal and as reprehensible as the Holocaust that happened to the Jewish people in Nazi Germany”

    Sorry Alexander – my bad my error – I apologize big time — Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    No worries !
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama

    To establish an ethnic nation on someone else’s land is the crime. Just reflect on all the violence this has entailed, and this carnage will never stop until Israel disappears, or the last Palestinian is killed. It’s useless to ask what Israel should or should not do, since as long as it exists, the drive to exterminate Palestinians from Palestine will continue. Israel is the crime.
     
    I agree that Israel is a crime.

    So is America a "crime"? What happened to my forefathers, who you call the Mohicans in Hollywood, we the people of the flowing waters. The very last of them is writing this.

    Yes, of course America is a crime. A series of crimes, first against the indiginous population, and later against other groups. The difference is that America has admitted its crime, tried to make reparations (I agree, too little, too late!) and now provides the descendants of the victims with the same legal and civil rights as all other Americans. Do you not see how Israel is a totally different situation? How many people live in limbo in the territory controlled by Israel, territory which includes both the West Bank and Gaza? These people have lived without civil and legal rights for many years.

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  • Sam Shama:

    My question to all of you is how far back in history do we wish to step back? Go back far enough, . . .and you may have already pondered and realised, that geographic boundaries, throughout our saga, a part of the Human Condition, are the creations of the winning side. No value judgements. I have said as much in comment #106 http://www.unz.com/article/israels-100-million-gamble/#comment-1033481 . If you insisted on value judgements or perhaps the application of universal jurisprudence driven by antiquarian texts and a fixed idée morale, you would find yourself in an unhappy position……..

    So let us set aside the question of who committed the original sin.

    If you insisted on “modern law”, specifically as it applies to the current topic, I think it is fair to say that the sine qua non is the Balfour Declaration, followed thereafter by the U.N. mandate.

    You’ve wiped away the fundaments of 4000 years of civilization, Sam, in preference for those (rather weak, I must say) quirky pillars that support your historically singular construction. That may be satisfying in the short term, inasmuch as in the short term the situation trends the way you prefer them. This combination of particularist (i.e. Balfour) and short-term (you endorse the UN mandate but Israel has rejected every other attempt by that same UN to regulate Israel’s behavior) is what got Israel into this a-moral, a-civilizational mess in the first place. (PS I believe the Persian model worked pretty well for a long time.)

    But if your law, which is basically the law of the jungle, of might makes right, prevails; and if Jews remain a minority, as they have throughout history, then what are you going to do when somebody becomes stronger than you and conquers you? Will Jews concede obligingly, turn over the keys to their homes and businesses and say, “that’s the way history has worked, from before Diocletion. Your turn now …”
    And anyway, is that any way to live — relying always on punishing and killing to enforce your rights?

    I’m reminded of something Chas Freeman said in a speech at the Palestine Center several years ago:

    Humanitarian law and the law of war are arguably the supreme moral artifacts of Atlantic civilization. Jewish lawyers made a disproportionate contribution to the crafting of both. The resulting legal principles were intended to deter the kinds of injuries and injustices that European Jews and other minorities had long suffered and to protect occupied populations from persecution by their occupiers. Both objectives are very relevant to contemporary Palestine.

    It is, however, hard to find any principle of due process, the several Geneva Conventions, or the Nuremberg trials that has not been systematically violated in the Holy Land. Examples of criminal conduct include mass murder, extra-judicial killing, torture, detention without charge, the denial of medical care, the annexation and colonization of occupied territory, the illegal expropriation of land, ethnic cleansing and the collective punishment of civilians, including the demolition of their homes, the systematic reduction of their infrastructure and the de-development and impoverishment of entire regions. These crimes have been linked to a concerted effort to rewrite international law to permit actions that it traditionally prohibited, in effect enshrining the principle that might makes right.

    As the former head of the Israeli Defense Forces’ (IDF) Legal Department has argued:

    “If you do something for long enough the world will accept it. The whole of international law is now based on the notion that an act that is forbidden today becomes permissible if executed by enough countries . . . . International law progresses through violations.”

    A colleague of his has extended this notion by pointing out that:

    “The more often Western states apply principles that originated in Israel to their own non-traditional conflicts in places like Afghanistan and Iraq, then the greater the chance these principles have of becoming a valuable part of international law.”

    These references to Iraq and Afghanistan underscore the extent to which the United States, once the principal champion of a rule-bound international order, has followed Israel in replacing legal principles with expediency as the central regulator of its interaction with foreign peoples. http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/display/ContentDetails/i/29130/pid/897

    The present chaos in the region that is consequent to prior application of the principle you now espouse for 1SS Israel might be considered a petri dish of Israel’s future under your proposal.

    and Sam Shama said:

    All immigration,( including those who claim the right of return), at this point, should be based on a purely economic model, with resource sustainability being of utmost importance. Russians are not exogenous to this requirement.

    Does that mean that the Jewish right of return is also vitiated, which, if I understand zionism properly, means that the entire raison d’être for the Jewish state is wiped away — wiped off the map, so to speak?
    And if you do not intend that the Jewish right of return is abolished in favor of a “purely economic model,” then in what sense is this to be “one state for all its citizens” if one group of citizens has preferential rights and another group is denied those rights?

    With reference to “economic models,” for a dozen years or more Alan Greenspan ran the Federal Reserve and thereby the US economy on a particular model, one that, I believe, posited that markets were self-regulating –“we don’t need no stinkin’ rule of law.”

    On October 23, 2008 (iirc), the US economy having failed and the global economy threatened with collapse absent a US taxpayer bail out of banks who had been the winners in this model, Greenspan appeared before a US Senate Committee and excused himself from accountability for the mess with these words that, in my view, demand to be carved in stone:

    The model was flawed.

    Economic models built on the foundation of “might makes right” will eventually lead to grief; always have, always will.

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  • @Sam Shama
    I think I might have an inkling as to what you are about to say. But read the 3rd paragraph from the end in this entry:

    http://www.unz.com/article/israels-100-million-gamble/#comment-1039867

    I’m not sure what this means:

    “Russians are not exogenous to this requirement.”

    Please clarify —

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Meaning that they are very much subject to the same rules and limitations (economic sustainability) as the Arabs applying under RoR. In fact I would go further to suggest no more Russian entry for a period of a decade until RoR is fully satisfied.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • KA says:
    @Sherman
    I'm not sure what your point is. One of your articles discusses how the Jews successfully fought off multiple attacking Arab armies and held off attacks by Palestinian Arabs (they were called Palestinian Arabs not "Palestinians" back then but I don't mean to digress).

    If you're trying to make the Jews look bad or delegitimize Israel you're not doing a very good job.

    You're not even a competent anti-Semite.!

    Don’t take it personally ( I mean Semitically, then you won’t know the truth)
    The information contained in those archives show the essence of the Zionism . It has been a corrupted lying machine and nothing from the very inception of its existence .
    Lying goes back to the days of the creation of Israel , to its beginning. Nothing new , no truth has ever emerged from any of its claims .

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus

    I see no difficulty with proper planning to bestow citizenship to all Palestinians. It will be a truly modern semitic country in the ME. We have the knowledge and the capability to make this come true. It is not a “dream” fraught with impossible odds against it. Its eminently possible. The wherewithals are in our (Jewish) hands. We can make it happen. We should.
     
    You want to take another crack at this before I blister your hide, Sam Shama?

    I think I might have an inkling as to what you are about to say. But read the 3rd paragraph from the end in this entry:

    http://www.unz.com/article/israels-100-million-gamble/#comment-1039867

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    I'm not sure what this means:

    "Russians are not exogenous to this requirement."

    Please clarify ---
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @SolontoCroesus

    I see no difficulty with proper planning to bestow citizenship to all Palestinians. It will be a truly modern semitic country in the ME. We have the knowledge and the capability to make this come true. It is not a “dream” fraught with impossible odds against it. Its eminently possible. The wherewithals are in our (Jewish) hands. We can make it happen. We should.
     
    You want to take another crack at this before I blister your hide, Sam Shama?

    I have a rather thick hide. Do your worst.

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  • @KA
    The Original Sin -


    New York Times archives dating back to 1947 1948 can elucidate

    what actually happened are entirely diffetent from what American and countless other across the world have boon told by Hollywood ,by book like EXODUS ,media,weekly magazine ,periodicals and by AIPAC

    http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/29282

    http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/29281

    http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/29280

    http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/29283

    http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/29284

    http://mondoweiss.net/2011/05/picking-apart-the-new-york-timess-zionist-narrative-on-the-nakba-using-the-new-york-times

    Compromise on the basis of even remote semblance to justice was not an option . War was the choice ,always and consistent, like the rise of the Sun.

    "Similarly, in 1949 the Syrian regime of Husni Zaim proposed a settlement with Israel: if Syria was granted permanent access to the waters of the Jordan River and Lake Tiberias, the Zaim government would not only sign a peace agreement but would permanently resettle 300,000 of the Palestinian refugees in its own territory. Despite urgings from U.S., UN, and even some leading Israeli officials, David Ben-Gurion refused even to discuss the offer. Zaim was succeeded by a military government headed by Adib Shishakli, who renewed the Syrian proposal on even more favorable terms, offering to resettle most of the Palestinian refugees (500,000) in Syria. Again Ben-Gurion refused to negotiate.

    - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2013/12/israels-dangerous-shavits#sthash.x4OjaSy4.dpuf

    I’m not sure what your point is. One of your articles discusses how the Jews successfully fought off multiple attacking Arab armies and held off attacks by Palestinian Arabs (they were called Palestinian Arabs not “Palestinians” back then but I don’t mean to digress).

    If you’re trying to make the Jews look bad or delegitimize Israel you’re not doing a very good job.

    You’re not even a competent anti-Semite.!

    Read More
    • Replies: @KA
    Don't take it personally ( I mean Semitically, then you won't know the truth)
    The information contained in those archives show the essence of the Zionism . It has been a corrupted lying machine and nothing from the very inception of its existence .
    Lying goes back to the days of the creation of Israel , to its beginning. Nothing new , no truth has ever emerged from any of its claims .
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Sam Shama
    Eliezer
    Disputing the history of the creation of modern Israel, means that you are either unaware, or willfully attempting to whitewash it. My grandfather was a participant in that war. All the Arab radio broadcasts urged Palestinians to flee. Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon radios called out the massacre at Deir Yassin at the hands of the Irgun. The Arab population listened. So would anybody in that situation. Over 700k, with just the clothes on their back, simply left their lives behind. My grandfather's commander, when the Hagannah reached Deir Yassin, called out to the Irgun killers "Menuvalim! Menuvalim!"....do you know what that means? Disgusting soulless creatures! Yafo fell. Yerushalayim. Teveriya. Galil. Nartseret. A hundred other communities fell.

    Its 2015. The Hebrew year 5775. Every bit of perfidy, every atrocity, every drop of blood splattered on the land is meticulously recorded. Digitally. For eternity. It will remain a pockmark on the face of humanity, a blight on the Jewish soul if we cannot acknowledge what happened. And redress.

    Every year when I visit Israel, I travel to a little village in the Gallilee, where I meet a white haired, beautiful old Arab lady; Savta Jamillah (grandmother Jamillah) she is called, by Jew and Arab alike. She makes soap with olive oil and sells it to make a living. She tells her story when she is in the mood. Once she remarked to me "When are the children of Abraham going to wake up?"

    Do we understand?

    I see no difficulty with proper planning to bestow citizenship to all Palestinians. It will be a truly modern semitic country in the ME. We have the knowledge and the capability to make this come true. It is not a "dream" fraught with impossible odds against it. Its eminently possible. The wherewithals are in our (Jewish) hands. We can make it happen. We should.

    The Russians like Lieberman are NOT Jewish. I don't need the fucked up interpretation of the Torah from these murderers to contaminate our thoughts. I know it far better than than those killers who do not even know the Shema Yisrael!. I once spoke to a group of these grinning halfwits , reciting the passages they were made to memorise. I then got into the Talmud with their "rabbi", who did not even know why or what the Sanhedrin of the Talmud intended with the Old Laws. They wanted each generation to apply their minds and conscience to change with the times! For example, "Eye for an Eye" of the old laws was rendered impossible, especially by the State, since 70 Judges would never agree on one thing! So went out of the window, many things that do not resonate with the times.

    We must do this, or it will consume us, and our children will stop loving us if we fail. They know the truth. Again its the year 5775.

    I see no difficulty with proper planning to bestow citizenship to all Palestinians. It will be a truly modern semitic country in the ME. We have the knowledge and the capability to make this come true. It is not a “dream” fraught with impossible odds against it. Its eminently possible. The wherewithals are in our (Jewish) hands. We can make it happen. We should.

    You want to take another crack at this before I blister your hide, Sam Shama?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I have a rather thick hide. Do your worst.
    , @Sam Shama
    I think I might have an inkling as to what you are about to say. But read the 3rd paragraph from the end in this entry:

    http://www.unz.com/article/israels-100-million-gamble/#comment-1039867
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Orville H. Larson
    ". . . He served as a Second Lieutenant in the United States Army, had his own regiment . . ."

    I think you're mistaken, aren't you? Second lieutenants command platoons. Bird colonels command regiments.

    could be Orville,

    He had a picture of it and referred to it as a regiment, it was about 250 troops or so …if that’s a platoon than it was a platoon .

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  • @Art
    Your father: "Nor did he suggest the REAL holocaust was visited on the German people not the Jewish people"

    So what? Two wrongs do not make a right – never have, never will. Tribal fascist Nazis, tribal fascist Zionists – there is no real difference

    What in your father’s story justifies what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. What would your father say about the Zionists using Palestinian women and children as a proving ground for their weapons sales? What would your father say about Gaza being an open air prison for a million and a half men, women, and children?

    We could expect that your father would be very upset with your support of the fascist Jews.

    Your father put his life on the line against the fascist Germans – yet you give succor to the fascist Jews – get a life.

    Hi Art,
    did you read what I wrote? or anything I have written?

    My central thesis for the past several months has been The holocaust of Palestine today is in every way as brutal and as reprehensible as the Holocaust that happened to the Jewish people in Nazi Germany……Nothing that was done to the Jews excuses what is being done in Palestine to the Palestinians people…as a matter of fact it makes it more odious and more evil !
    .
    … .What is it about what I have written in this post or any other that has ever suggested otherwise ?

    Mr Croesus insists the holocaust never happened at all…and that Nazism was never an ideology based on supremacism, lebensraum,conquest and empire.

    he claims that making an equivalence with Jewish supremacism today and Nazi supremacism of 1938 is wrong…i say its spot on !

    And its been my argument all along !

    If you have a problem with it take it up with him .

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    • Replies: @Art
    "My central thesis for the past several months has been The holocaust of Palestine today is in every way as brutal and as reprehensible as the Holocaust that happened to the Jewish people in Nazi Germany"

    Sorry Alexander - my bad my error - I apologize big time --- Art
    , @SolontoCroesus

    Mr Croesus insists the holocaust never happened at all…and that Nazism was never an ideology based on supremacism, lebensraum,conquest and empire.
     
    What SolontoCroesus said was a lot more nuanced than that.
    Go back and read what was written, not what's squeezed aus dem Arsche

    he claims that making an equivalence with Jewish supremacism today and Nazi supremacism of 1938 is wrong…i say its spot on !
     
    As my Italian Aunt used to say, "I right, you wrong."
    You, Alexander, are wrong on the facts and wrong on the analysis.

    Ask your father about the rape of German women
    Ask your father about the destruction of 75% of Germany
    Ask your father about the forced "population transfer" of 12- 15-million ethnic Germans
    Ask your father about the confessions-by-torture extracted from Germans in Nuremberg "trials"
    Ask your father about "de-Nazification-by-torture" of German citizens that went on for five years if not more post-German surrender

    Or better yet, consult someone who was there and in a less shitty frame of mind than your father: Freda Utley's The High Cost of Vengeance

    Ask your father if he's ever noticed the relationship between Henry Morgenthau, Jr. who was FDR's right hand man from 1936 onward in planning a war against Germany, funneling money to Russia, abetted by the Russian spy in his office, Harry Dexter White;
    and the Morgenthau Plan that was carried out against the German people for over two years AFTER German surrender, until US military leaders were sickened by its barbarity and put a stop to it.

    There is this equivalence between the German people and the Palestinians:
    Zionist Jews planned and carried out the ethnic cleansing of both of their peoples and cultures, and devastated both of their lands and built structures.


    Other than that,

    Spot on


    !

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Charlesz Martel
    It isn't. The lesson of the Holocaust is Jews have to have a homeland and defend it. I don't cry for Gazans- what country on earth would not counterattack after hundreds of rocket and artillery strikes? I'm not surprised the author worked at the Carter Center. So I'd like to pose a question- what would Hillbilly Jimmy do if the neighbors were shooting at his house? Why, he'd grab his shooting iron and shoot back. Notice a pattern?

    Jerkwad.

    The Original Sin -

    New York Times archives dating back to 1947 1948 can elucidate

    what actually happened are entirely diffetent from what American and countless other across the world have boon told by Hollywood ,by book like EXODUS ,media,weekly magazine ,periodicals and by AIPAC

    http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/29282

    http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/29281

    http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/29280

    http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/29283

    http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/29284

    http://mondoweiss.net/2011/05/picking-apart-the-new-york-timess-zionist-narrative-on-the-nakba-using-the-new-york-times

    Compromise on the basis of even remote semblance to justice was not an option . War was the choice ,always and consistent, like the rise of the Sun.

    “Similarly, in 1949 the Syrian regime of Husni Zaim proposed a settlement with Israel: if Syria was granted permanent access to the waters of the Jordan River and Lake Tiberias, the Zaim government would not only sign a peace agreement but would permanently resettle 300,000 of the Palestinian refugees in its own territory. Despite urgings from U.S., UN, and even some leading Israeli officials, David Ben-Gurion refused even to discuss the offer. Zaim was succeeded by a military government headed by Adib Shishakli, who renewed the Syrian proposal on even more favorable terms, offering to resettle most of the Palestinian refugees (500,000) in Syria. Again Ben-Gurion refused to negotiate.

    - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2013/12/israels-dangerous-shavits#sthash.x4OjaSy4.dpuf

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sherman
    I'm not sure what your point is. One of your articles discusses how the Jews successfully fought off multiple attacking Arab armies and held off attacks by Palestinian Arabs (they were called Palestinian Arabs not "Palestinians" back then but I don't mean to digress).

    If you're trying to make the Jews look bad or delegitimize Israel you're not doing a very good job.

    You're not even a competent anti-Semite.!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • KA says:

    Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon implied that Israel may seek to assassinate Iranian nuclear scientists in order stop Iran’s nuclear program in an interview with the German newspaper Der Spiegel, released on Friday.
    In response to the question “So will we see further deaths of Iranian nuclear scientists through attacks or malware compromising Iranian computer networks?”, Ya’alon said: “We should be ready to defend ourselves. I’m not responsible for the lives of Iranian

    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/beta/1.670116

    Israel isn’t responsible for the misfortunes of Gazan.

    Israel has no choice when the choice is justice . It has no partner when it is the partner.

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  • @Karl
    >>>> And the Palestinians? ..


    Jordan is Palestine.

    Eliezer
    Disputing the history of the creation of modern Israel, means that you are either unaware, or willfully attempting to whitewash it. My grandfather was a participant in that war. All the Arab radio broadcasts urged Palestinians to flee. Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon radios called out the massacre at Deir Yassin at the hands of the Irgun. The Arab population listened. So would anybody in that situation. Over 700k, with just the clothes on their back, simply left their lives behind. My grandfather’s commander, when the Hagannah reached Deir Yassin, called out to the Irgun killers “Menuvalim! Menuvalim!”….do you know what that means? Disgusting soulless creatures! Yafo fell. Yerushalayim. Teveriya. Galil. Nartseret. A hundred other communities fell.

    Its 2015. The Hebrew year 5775. Every bit of perfidy, every atrocity, every drop of blood splattered on the land is meticulously recorded. Digitally. For eternity. It will remain a pockmark on the face of humanity, a blight on the Jewish soul if we cannot acknowledge what happened. And redress.

    [MORE]
    Every year when I visit Israel, I travel to a little village in the Gallilee, where I meet a white haired, beautiful old Arab lady; Savta Jamillah (grandmother Jamillah) she is called, by Jew and Arab alike. She makes soap with olive oil and sells it to make a living. She tells her story when she is in the mood. Once she remarked to me “When are the children of Abraham going to wake up?”

    Do we understand?

    I see no difficulty with proper planning to bestow citizenship to all Palestinians. It will be a truly modern semitic country in the ME. We have the knowledge and the capability to make this come true. It is not a “dream” fraught with impossible odds against it. Its eminently possible. The wherewithals are in our (Jewish) hands. We can make it happen. We should.

    The Russians like Lieberman are NOT Jewish. I don’t need the fucked up interpretation of the Torah from these murderers to contaminate our thoughts. I know it far better than than those killers who do not even know the Shema Yisrael!. I once spoke to a group of these grinning halfwits , reciting the passages they were made to memorise. I then got into the Talmud with their “rabbi”, who did not even know why or what the Sanhedrin of the Talmud intended with the Old Laws. They wanted each generation to apply their minds and conscience to change with the times! For example, “Eye for an Eye” of the old laws was rendered impossible, especially by the State, since 70 Judges would never agree on one thing! So went out of the window, many things that do not resonate with the times.

    We must do this, or it will consume us, and our children will stop loving us if we fail. They know the truth. Again its the year 5775.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    I see no difficulty with proper planning to bestow citizenship to all Palestinians. It will be a truly modern semitic country in the ME. We have the knowledge and the capability to make this come true. It is not a “dream” fraught with impossible odds against it. Its eminently possible. The wherewithals are in our (Jewish) hands. We can make it happen. We should.
     
    You want to take another crack at this before I blister your hide, Sam Shama?
    , @KA
    Page 32 and references are in page 179 from ISRAELI PEACE PALESTINIAN JUSTICE
    LIBERATION THEOLOGY and THE PEACE PROCESS by Thomas L Are
    -------In 1961 Irish Journalist Erskine Childers examined the American and British broadcasting records and found " there was not a single order or appeal,or suggestion about evacuation from any Arab station inside or outsidePalestine in 1948. "
    On the other hand Zionist radio stations had been broadcasting in Arabic urging Palestinians to leave home .

    An Israeli officer revealed just how deliberate the broadcasts were :
    .... as uncontrolled panic spread through all Arab quarters,the Israeli brought up jeeps with loudspeakers which broadcast recorded " horror sounds'
    These included shrieks,wails and anguished moans of Arab women,the wail of sirens and the clang of fire alarm bells,interrupted by sepulchral voice calling out in Arabic: " Save your souls,all ye faithful: The Jews are using poison gas and atomic weapons. Run for your lives in the name of Allah"

    Sources--

    1 The Other Exodus
    2 The Gun and the Olive Branch: The Roots of Violence in the Middle East
    3 Facts and Fables : The Arab Israeli Conflict
    4 The Arab Israeli Reader: A Documentary History of the Middle East Conflict.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Rurik

    The descendants of these recent immigrants to Palestine are, of course, today’s “indigenous Palestinians”.
     
    that's a lie

    Who were the over 700,000 (that's seven hundred thousand) people who fled for their lives from the Jewish terrorists who were hacking up and slaughtering Palestinian villagers including women and children in places like Deir Yassin?

    Whether or not the diplomat said those words exactly is irrelevant. The people murdered at places like Deir Yassin and the hundreds of thousands who fled to the dessert to escape the blood bath were all those Palestinian husbands who were married to the Palestine 'bride' ~ the land and their homes and their farms and businesses and churches and mosques and streets and beds and heirlooms from thousands of years of living on that land. Their land. All of it stolen by terrorists who butchered old men, women and children in the worst ways possible in a calculated agenda of terror to drive the 'husbands' from their 'bride' so that another man could defile her. And defile her they did.

    The indigenous Palestinians you mention are the same ones who survived the Nakba- the Palestinian holocaust and fled to the dessert. Many still have the keys to their homes that were stolen from them. They can watch the Jews living in their houses and farming their land with tractors that are paid for with American tax dollars- like so many other things that make the life of the Jews over there so pleasant while at the same time the people whose lives were stolen from them by terrorists are made as horrific and woeful as possible.

    Once you wipe all the lies away from the conflict over there, the stark truth becomes impossible to sugar coat.

    It's genocide

    http://www.thefeministwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/palestine-pic-1.jpg

    It’s genocide

    It’s also culture-cide:

    How zionists looted books — 70,000 or more — from Palestinian libraries
    The Economist January 2013

    The screen flickered with images of Palestinians forced out of their homes in the 1948 war. On camera, refugees recounted their ordeals and lamented the loss of something precious: their books. . .

    “The Great Book Robbery”, a 2012 documentary about the looting of some 70,000 books from private Palestinian libraries during the 1948 war. It vividly chronicles the large-scale cultural pillage and dispossession of Palestinian literary archives.

    Directed by Benny Brunner, a Dutch-Israeli immigrant and self-described former Zionist, the film left the 40 or so attendees in awe. Adding to the poignance, the audience was gathered in a centre named for a famous Palestinian poet and scholar whose own book collection had been looted.
    “Farewell, my books! How much midnight oil did I burn with you…” Al Sakakini wrote these words shortly after Jewish soldiers swept through

    Jerusalem’s affluent Arab neighbourhoods of
    Qatamon,
    Musrara and
    Baq’a,

    “collecting” 30,000 books, newspapers and documents.

    The haul included works of immeasurable historical or religious significance, such as hand-written copies of the Koran and Hadith, emblazoned with gold leaf.

    Some 40,000 other books were seized from abandoned homes in urban centres such as
    Nazareth,
    Jaffa and
    Haifa.

    In writing, Al Sakakini wonders if his treasured possessions were looted or burnt. “Were you transferred, with due respect, to a private or public library?” he asks, or “did you find your way to the grocer, your pages wrapping onions?”

    image:

    The theft took place largely unnoticed amidst the tragedy and chaos of the war. Ilan Pappé, an Israeli historian who features prominently in the documentary, says the looters were either individual thieves who took their spoils home, or official operatives who took the books to Israel’s National Library, where at least 6,000 of remain today. Many of the books were recycled as paper; others were marked “AP” for abandoned property. Part of the tragedy, the documentary reveals, is that Palestinian prisoners were forced to pillage books from each other’s homes. In one especially moving scene a Palestinian named Mohammad Batrawi recalled being forced to loot his own home. “The appropriation…of the spiritual essence of the Palestinians is…no different than the appropriation of the land,” observes Mr Pappé. The film ends with Batrawi calling for peace between Israelis and Palestinians.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2013/01/looting-books-palestinian-libraries#oh8xD6OhiYpyyQaL.99

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    • Agree: Orville H. Larson
    • Replies: @Rurik

    also culture-cide:
     
    Just like Dresden was. They didn't just want to slaughter (burn alive) the people of Dresden, they wanted to destroy for all time the ancient Baroque culture which was an iconic expression of those people and their history.

    Just like they way they loot and destroy the museums of Mesopotamia and now Syria, trying to wipe out history and truth.

    Like the burning of the Library of Alexandria, destroying sublime knowledge and culture if it isn't their knowledge and culture. They want to rewrite history to conform to the tenants or their egocentric (to say the least) tribal narrative. And destroy any and all evidence that is inconvenient to that narrative.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Karl
    >>>> And the Palestinians? ..


    Jordan is Palestine.

    I checked a few of your posts to see if you were sincere

    And soon, they [Arabs] will have to leave Jerusalem.

    If they give us a hard time about it…. we will give give weapons to the Berbers and the Copts. And then the Arabic blood will flow.

    “Arabic blood will flow”

    like it did at Sabra and Shatila?

    like it did in Deir Yassin?

    like it did in Gaza so recently

    Like it’s doing in Syria as we speak?

    From the King David hotel cowardly terrorism- to the attack on 911- to the slaughtered people in Iraq and Libya and Ukraine today, don’t you ever worry about Karma Eliezer?

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  • @Karl
    >>>> And the Palestinians? ..


    Jordan is Palestine.

    You wish!

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  • @Sherman
    "The bride is beautiful but she is married to another man"

    This is a quote falsely attributed to the Jews by hate filled propagandists like you.

    Nobody actually said these words and there is zero evidence of anybody uttering this quote.

    In fact, had anybody visited Palestine before 1900 they would have found a poor, neglected and sparsely populated territory. Nobody would have called the place beautiful.

    It wasn't until the Jews fixed up the place that the land did indeed become "beautiful".

    In fact, this is what drew massive waves of Arab immigrants to Palestine from the surrounding basket case Arab countries (and throughout the Muslim world).

    The descendants of these recent immigrants to Palestine are, of course, today's "indigenous Palestinians".

    The descendants of these recent immigrants to Palestine are, of course, today’s “indigenous Palestinians”.

    that’s a lie

    Who were the over 700,000 (that’s seven hundred thousand) people who fled for their lives from the Jewish terrorists who were hacking up and slaughtering Palestinian villagers including women and children in places like Deir Yassin?

    Whether or not the diplomat said those words exactly is irrelevant. The people murdered at places like Deir Yassin and the hundreds of thousands who fled to the dessert to escape the blood bath were all those Palestinian husbands who were married to the Palestine ‘bride’ ~ the land and their homes and their farms and businesses and churches and mosques and streets and beds and heirlooms from thousands of years of living on that land. Their land. All of it stolen by terrorists who butchered old men, women and children in the worst ways possible in a calculated agenda of terror to drive the ‘husbands’ from their ‘bride’ so that another man could defile her. And defile her they did.

    The indigenous Palestinians you mention are the same ones who survived the Nakba- the Palestinian holocaust and fled to the dessert. Many still have the keys to their homes that were stolen from them. They can watch the Jews living in their houses and farming their land with tractors that are paid for with American tax dollars- like so many other things that make the life of the Jews over there so pleasant while at the same time the people whose lives were stolen from them by terrorists are made as horrific and woeful as possible.

    Once you wipe all the lies away from the conflict over there, the stark truth becomes impossible to sugar coat.

    It’s genocide

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    It’s genocide
     
    It's also culture-cide:

    How zionists looted books -- 70,000 or more -- from Palestinian libraries
    The Economist January 2013

    The screen flickered with images of Palestinians forced out of their homes in the 1948 war. On camera, refugees recounted their ordeals and lamented the loss of something precious: their books. . .

    "The Great Book Robbery", a 2012 documentary about the looting of some 70,000 books from private Palestinian libraries during the 1948 war. It vividly chronicles the large-scale cultural pillage and dispossession of Palestinian literary archives.

    Directed by Benny Brunner, a Dutch-Israeli immigrant and self-described former Zionist, the film left the 40 or so attendees in awe. Adding to the poignance, the audience was gathered in a centre named for a famous Palestinian poet and scholar whose own book collection had been looted.
    “Farewell, my books! How much midnight oil did I burn with you…” Al Sakakini wrote these words shortly after Jewish soldiers swept through

    Jerusalem’s affluent Arab neighbourhoods of
    Qatamon,
    Musrara and
    Baq’a,

    “collecting” 30,000 books, newspapers and documents.

    The haul included works of immeasurable historical or religious significance, such as hand-written copies of the Koran and Hadith, emblazoned with gold leaf.

    Some 40,000 other books were seized from abandoned homes in urban centres such as
    Nazareth,
    Jaffa and
    Haifa.

    In writing, Al Sakakini wonders if his treasured possessions were looted or burnt. “Were you transferred, with due respect, to a private or public library?” he asks, or “did you find your way to the grocer, your pages wrapping onions?”

    image: http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/290-width/images/2013/01/blogs/prospero/20130126_bkp504.jpg


    The theft took place largely unnoticed amidst the tragedy and chaos of the war. Ilan Pappé, an Israeli historian who features prominently in the documentary, says the looters were either individual thieves who took their spoils home, or official operatives who took the books to Israel’s National Library, where at least 6,000 of remain today. Many of the books were recycled as paper; others were marked “AP” for abandoned property. Part of the tragedy, the documentary reveals, is that Palestinian prisoners were forced to pillage books from each other’s homes. In one especially moving scene a Palestinian named Mohammad Batrawi recalled being forced to loot his own home. “The appropriation...of the spiritual essence of the Palestinians is...no different than the appropriation of the land,” observes Mr Pappé. The film ends with Batrawi calling for peace between Israelis and Palestinians.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2013/01/looting-books-palestinian-libraries#oh8xD6OhiYpyyQaL.99
     

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  • @Rurik

    Jews have to have a homeland and defend it.
     
    And the Palestinians? ..

    That's a rhetorical question

    It would be like me asking you if the life of an Arab child is just as worthy in the eyes of God as the life of a Jewish child

    We all know what I'd say and we all know what's in your feculent heart.

    >>>> And the Palestinians? ..

    Jordan is Palestine.

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    • Replies: @geokat62
    You wish!
    , @Rurik
    I checked a few of your posts to see if you were sincere

    And soon, they [Arabs] will have to leave Jerusalem.

    If they give us a hard time about it…. we will give give weapons to the Berbers and the Copts. And then the Arabic blood will flow.
     
    "Arabic blood will flow"

    like it did at Sabra and Shatila?

    http://qunfuz.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/sabra-shatila-1.jpg

    http://commentisfreewatch.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/9133632830.jpg

    like it did in Deir Yassin?

    http://palestinesolidarityproject.org/multimedia/deir-yassin.png

    like it did in Gaza so recently

    http://morningmail.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/cartoon.jpg

    Like it's doing in Syria as we speak?

    From the King David hotel cowardly terrorism- to the attack on 911- to the slaughtered people in Iraq and Libya and Ukraine today, don't you ever worry about Karma Eliezer?
    , @Sam Shama
    Eliezer
    Disputing the history of the creation of modern Israel, means that you are either unaware, or willfully attempting to whitewash it. My grandfather was a participant in that war. All the Arab radio broadcasts urged Palestinians to flee. Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon radios called out the massacre at Deir Yassin at the hands of the Irgun. The Arab population listened. So would anybody in that situation. Over 700k, with just the clothes on their back, simply left their lives behind. My grandfather's commander, when the Hagannah reached Deir Yassin, called out to the Irgun killers "Menuvalim! Menuvalim!"....do you know what that means? Disgusting soulless creatures! Yafo fell. Yerushalayim. Teveriya. Galil. Nartseret. A hundred other communities fell.

    Its 2015. The Hebrew year 5775. Every bit of perfidy, every atrocity, every drop of blood splattered on the land is meticulously recorded. Digitally. For eternity. It will remain a pockmark on the face of humanity, a blight on the Jewish soul if we cannot acknowledge what happened. And redress.

    Every year when I visit Israel, I travel to a little village in the Gallilee, where I meet a white haired, beautiful old Arab lady; Savta Jamillah (grandmother Jamillah) she is called, by Jew and Arab alike. She makes soap with olive oil and sells it to make a living. She tells her story when she is in the mood. Once she remarked to me "When are the children of Abraham going to wake up?"

    Do we understand?

    I see no difficulty with proper planning to bestow citizenship to all Palestinians. It will be a truly modern semitic country in the ME. We have the knowledge and the capability to make this come true. It is not a "dream" fraught with impossible odds against it. Its eminently possible. The wherewithals are in our (Jewish) hands. We can make it happen. We should.

    The Russians like Lieberman are NOT Jewish. I don't need the fucked up interpretation of the Torah from these murderers to contaminate our thoughts. I know it far better than than those killers who do not even know the Shema Yisrael!. I once spoke to a group of these grinning halfwits , reciting the passages they were made to memorise. I then got into the Talmud with their "rabbi", who did not even know why or what the Sanhedrin of the Talmud intended with the Old Laws. They wanted each generation to apply their minds and conscience to change with the times! For example, "Eye for an Eye" of the old laws was rendered impossible, especially by the State, since 70 Judges would never agree on one thing! So went out of the window, many things that do not resonate with the times.

    We must do this, or it will consume us, and our children will stop loving us if we fail. They know the truth. Again its the year 5775.
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  • @Sherman
    "My Father and Mother taught me to respect, even revere, Jewish people"

    Why do I find this impossible to believe?

    You're delusional.

    Sherman, do you have any comments on Arthur Ruppin’s activities in Palestine, or the British Mandate’s analysis of Arab vs Jewish crop production?

    That’s objective information that is open to discussion.

    My relationship with my parents is not something you are in a position to know anything about or form an opinion upon.

    I can tell you this about my parents, however: neither my Mother nor my Father ever, in their entire lives ever said anything remotely like “You are full of shit.” Nor were our children ever subjected to that sort of low treatment.

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