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    Although I was not surprised that my article (The IQ Gap is no Longer a Black and White Issue) attracted a lot of interest, I was actually shocked that it also impressed the Google Search algorithms. It became a top “authority” not only on topical searches like “black white IQ gap”, but even on very...
  • Blacks and whites are equally important as they are. EVERYONE should be equal and exercie tolerance. Let’s make the world a good place for our children.

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  • The fact that black immigrants to the United States have shown achievements that are superior to native black Americans has been a phenomenon studied since at least the 1970's. At first it was just the Caribbean blacks who were a subject of this unexpected outcome. As black Africans kept immigrating into the US, they showed...
  • Anecdotal Experience.
    - Ultra -strict parenting in Indian and Chinese. My sister in law (Senior medical Consultant) spends a lot of time counselling young British Indian and Pakistani doctors who simply don’t want to be doctors and were forced by their parents. – Thats not about IQ but you can force high academic performance out of young people by curtailing all other activities.
    - Immigrant arbitrage advantage – Ghanians I know were educated back in Ghana 10-16years old at strict elite private schools while their parents worked in UK. They return for A-Levels and University entrance.
    - Motivation – Many Muslim women from ‘traditional’ families are focussed from puberty on escaping their oppressive families and avoiding arranged marriage, religion and familial violence.
    - Violence – Reported to me that Ghanians/ Nigerian parents often severely beat their children. Don’t know what effect this has. Maybe high achievers are the ones who have stopped doing this.
    - Team effort vs individualism. It always surprised me that the Chinese, Koreans at University were allowed to work as a team in completing individual assignments. Somehow I always thought it was supposed to be individual work and baring discussions over coffee I never sat round a table and allocated work to a team. Since there were no ethnic minorities at my senior school I had never seen this way of working before.
    - Inbred hatred of authority in English whites. Working class whites seem to have a dislike of authority structures, distrust of elites and their institutions, and a dislike of intellectual achievement, a respect for “sticking it to the man” etc a that might go back to the anglo-saxon holocaust and dispossession following the 1066 invasion or the Industrial cultural revolution. In this sense a similar “race memory” to descendants of slaves.

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  • Arthur Jensen's generation of race hereditarians (Eysenck, Rushton, Shockley and perhaps even Charles Murray et al) were quite different in posture from many of their current young followers. Jensen, like most of his friends, apparently wished to be proved wrong about his genetic hypothesis of racial differences in IQ because he genuinely hoped that what...
  • The IQ sweet spot for chess grand masters is 135, well below genius levels.

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  • I will now respond to some hereditarian scholars who wrote some articles in response to my data and arguments on the Black-White IQ Gap (Fuerst, Frost and Thompson). I hope to cover every valid concern brought up so far, including technical issues on data reliability, etc. I will also address some of the alternative explanations...
  • @Anonymous
    You need to take the UK education results with a very large pinch of salt.

    The problem is that in order to close the achievement gap educational reports over here will compare the results of black British with those of native British students in receipt of free school meals. They will intentionally omit the 'in receipt of free schools meals' bit from all graphs and bury the mention of this fact somewhere in the body of the paper that hardly anyone ever reads.

    The problem is that in order to close the achievement gap educational reports over here will compare the results of black British with those of native British students in receipt of free school meals. They will intentionally omit the ‘in receipt of free schools meals’ bit from all graphs and bury the mention of this fact somewhere in the body of the paper that hardly anyone ever reads.

    So, you could have easily proved this in your original post. And yet you didn’t. Every time one of you behaves this way, you continue to tank the credibility and reason to assume good faith intentions of your entire side in the eyes of those, like me, who originally came into this topic with an open mind, willing to seriously consider both positions. It actually appears as though you guys can’t help it. Weird. Genetic predisposition maybe?

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  • @RaceRealist88
    Here is Rushton's refutation.

    http://www.arthurhu.com/99/04/diamond.txt

    I’m not sure why you think you’ve made a convincing case that this proves that Diamond has been “wholly discredited.” You can say that he’s been disputed (with talking points that aren’t particularly new or sophisticated, all this information is publicly available for anyone interested in it), but not much more than that. The fact of the matter is that “data unexplained” exists on both sides. I can just as easily cite the data reported in this article if I wanted to claim that Jensen has been wholly discredited. Superlative statements like yours drive people like me (until recently still on the fence) to view your “side” with a a heavy dose of suspicion, so keep that in mind as you move forward.

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  • The fact that black immigrants to the United States have shown achievements that are superior to native black Americans has been a phenomenon studied since at least the 1970's. At first it was just the Caribbean blacks who were a subject of this unexpected outcome. As black Africans kept immigrating into the US, they showed...
  • im a white scotsman who has a IQ of 133 tested,,does not make me more intelligent than a person with a 80 IQ just means i can read situations better than they can and not react as quick,,,if im talking shit then i rest my case

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  • Here’s one anecdote from my own personal experience. I was a jewelry vendor in a large urban flea market, years ago. The black vendors I became acquainted with could be divided into two camps: successful/hard working was one camp, and unsuccessful/careless was the other. Every black vendor in the successful camp was African or Caribbean immigrant. Most of the vendors in the unsuccessful camp were African-American.

    A few unsuccessful black vendors were immigrants but most were American born. The Africans I met there usually spoke at least three languages, and several spoke more than five languages fluently. It was much easier for me to communicate with an African immigrant speaking English as a third language (or fourth or fifth language) than it was to communicate with American black vendors who only spoke English.

    One vendor from Senegal speaks English, French, and Arabic as well as several tribal languages, with Wolof as his first language. I’m still acquainted with him and see him from time to time.

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  • @Bill

    Nor is it simply elite migration; I see working class Nigerians routinely vastly out perform the (literal) princes of other nations.
     
    There is a creeping danger of equivocation in this bit. The hereditarian is going to argue for selective immigration of the cognitive elite which may or may not be coextensive with the economic, political, and social elite. As long as you believe that the economic returns to cognitive skill are higher in the developed world (and how could you fail to believe this?), then you should also find selective immigration of the cognitive elite plausible.

    Assuming that immigration is a good idea in the first place, it follows that we should select those who would best benefit the host country. In some cases—the Goths who sacked Rome, for example—were not a very good choice. Those of us who have read the Koran, hadith, history of Islam and the biography of the Prophet know that anyone who calls himself a Muslim has subscribed to slavery, sexism, cruelty and murder.

    Immigration was never intended to be an affirmative action program for the Third World, and ignoring such things as kinship and commonality simply isn’t realistic

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  • Arthur Jensen's generation of race hereditarians (Eysenck, Rushton, Shockley and perhaps even Charles Murray et al) were quite different in posture from many of their current young followers. Jensen, like most of his friends, apparently wished to be proved wrong about his genetic hypothesis of racial differences in IQ because he genuinely hoped that what...
  • Your argument of Africans makes sense, but your example of Ashkenazi maybe does not. Ashkenazi are genetically white, like Italians. Their IQ should be about 100. Italians have 102, Ashkenazi of Israel have 103. Only Ashkenazi of USA and UK have IQ of 110. This may be caused by exactly the kind of
    selection you talk of, but a selection of American Jews by IQ tests. US Jewish population grew faster than it should have with immigration of 2 million Jews, immigration probably was 3-3.5 million Jews, 1-1.5 million during the IQ tests from 1921 (or 1924) to 1939.

    This should have made the following effect. The IQ tests select IQ over 100. The resulting average IQ is 112, assuming that the average was 100. Exactly it is sigma*sqrt(2/pi), sigma=standard dev.
    The variance changes to Var(1-2/pi), so it is reduced. Then comes the regression to the mean for the next generation, reducing the average to 110. Finally the distribution evens over many generations, I am not quite convinced it goes to normal with SD=15, as the variance may stay reduced because selection has reduced genes. And this is what you probably now have with Ashkenazi of the USA.

    How would it be with the descendants of selected Africans? Maybe the same way.

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  • Although I was not surprised that my article (The IQ Gap is no Longer a Black and White Issue) attracted a lot of interest, I was actually shocked that it also impressed the Google Search algorithms. It became a top “authority” not only on topical searches like “black white IQ gap”, but even on very...
  • “It would also be interesting to have visual feedback, rather than filtered and processed results. There is no problem – now – in uploading sample scans of black writing, so we could marvel at the wonderfully gifted achievements of blacks… This is the first time in human history that exam and other texts could be uploaded. But all research now is controlled by Jews. And they will of course never allow this, just as statistics in France on race are not collected”

    https://JoelsBlog.com.ng

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  • Arthur Jensen's generation of race hereditarians (Eysenck, Rushton, Shockley and perhaps even Charles Murray et al) were quite different in posture from many of their current young followers. Jensen, like most of his friends, apparently wished to be proved wrong about his genetic hypothesis of racial differences in IQ because he genuinely hoped that what...
  • @Chanda Chisala

    The simple question that any person would ask when considering the IQ of sub-Saharan Africans (with the understanding that there are many different ethnic groups involved) is why have they achieved so little that relates to civilization?
     
    Every group that has been isolated from other people of the world for a long time has always lagged behind. All "civilizations" were built by borrowing quite heavily from others that they met as they traveled around, in trade or conflict. Africa was segregated from everyone else by a uniquely harsh geography (hence its "ancient" name - "the Dark Continent" -- that wasn't a reference to skin color!) plus many tropical diseases that kept others away. Above that, the difficult geography and environment even kept African tribes mostly secluded from each other (thus, Zambia alone has more than 70 languages that I can't understand at all, although it has less than 20 million people!). Relative to human history, the interaction that Africa has had with other people is still very recent, very brief, relatively superficial, and the vast majority still really haven't had even that little contact.

    I get all this from Thomas Sowell and I haven't seen any good argument against it. See his trilogy that includes "Conquests and Cultures" etc.

    A couple of points:
    If there were no Asians, Mediterraneans, or Northern Europeans in the ancient Americas, how did the isolated Amerinds create their civilizations by build pyramids and their great cities? They too were isolated.

    I doubt whether Zambia has 70 languages. It may have several, but I suspect they are mostly dialects. Italy, Germany, and even the UK had many dialects where populations at the extreme ends of the land could barely understand each other, if at all. In the UK, within living memory, Manx and Cornish have vanished.

    IQ is a measure, nothing more, nothing less. My late brother had a genius IQ, but, as nice as he was, he was useless in producing anything meaningful, aside from astonishing (and accurate) pronouncements on life guided by his amazing bullshit detector. I know many others of various races, that have “low” IQ, but have done remarkably well for themselves, due to them being able to see opportunities created by others of higher intelligence. I have also met many “low” IQ people, of whom I ponder: how do they feed themselves? Sub-Saharan Blacks and people from the Indian sub-continent make up a disproportionate number of those, despite my city having one of the highest Amerind populations in North America.

    It is, as others have stated, the distribution of IQ that is the predictor.

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  • The fact that black immigrants to the United States have shown achievements that are superior to native black Americans has been a phenomenon studied since at least the 1970's. At first it was just the Caribbean blacks who were a subject of this unexpected outcome. As black Africans kept immigrating into the US, they showed...
  • A few years ago, I attempted to tutor a 3rd or 4th grade black kid whose parents were at least holding middle-class jobs, based on indicators of income level. They showed me a teacher’s evaluation of the kid’s performance; he was significantly below grade level. So they figured some tutoring would help him catch up. I introduced some basic visual and graphic aids to teach him the number line and how simple addition, subtraction, and multiplication worked. After several one hour sessions it became evident that he grasped and retained absolutely nothing from week to week. Still, the parents couldn’t come to terms with the fact that their kid probably had an IQ of 80 or lower. It just had to be ‘racism’ holding him back.

    Wrong, folks. His teacher was dead on, confirmed by someone who did want to help the kid. When you can’t advance from 3 to 6 on the number line when you’re counting by 3′s, you’re just plain retarded.

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  • Although I was not surprised that my article (The IQ Gap is no Longer a Black and White Issue) attracted a lot of interest, I was actually shocked that it also impressed the Google Search algorithms. It became a top “authority” not only on topical searches like “black white IQ gap”, but even on very...
  • @Sean Last
    It would be interesting to see what percentage of blacks and whites in Britain actually take the GSCE tests.

    It would also be interesting to have visual feedback, rather than filtered and processed results. There is no problem – now – in uploading sample scans of black writing, so we could marvel at the wonderfully gifted achievements of blacks… This is the first time in human history that exam and other texts could be uploaded. But all research now is controlled by Jews. And they will of course never allow this, just as statistics in France on race are not collected.

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  • The fact that black immigrants to the United States have shown achievements that are superior to native black Americans has been a phenomenon studied since at least the 1970's. At first it was just the Caribbean blacks who were a subject of this unexpected outcome. As black Africans kept immigrating into the US, they showed...
  • This has to be peak liberal denial of reality.

    “People of above-average IQ coming to the USA and having children that are also of above-average IQ invalidates the theory that IQ is hereditary!”

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  • American Blacks, descendants of slaves, are not that same as other Blacks, such as the various countries of Africa or elsewhere. Just like Europe, Africa is made up of many different countries and ethnic groups. Genes can be effected by grand parents environment and etc. American Blacks performed better in the past before the 1960′s.

    There are studies that show that when Japanese emigrated to US, they got the same diseases as Americans and did not have the good health of old country, also, they grew taller(more animal protein).

    In regards to the top universities that count foreign Blacks in their diversity goals for Black, defeats the whole purpose of diversity quotas.

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  • Arthur Jensen's generation of race hereditarians (Eysenck, Rushton, Shockley and perhaps even Charles Murray et al) were quite different in posture from many of their current young followers. Jensen, like most of his friends, apparently wished to be proved wrong about his genetic hypothesis of racial differences in IQ because he genuinely hoped that what...
  • One would expect Japan, a country with a population of almost 130 million and scoring in top 5 among all countries in IQ tests, to produce a high number of chess GMs. But no, not even a single GM, nor 2500+ player (excluding Hikaru Nakamura, a Japanese-American player), their top player being barely over 2400:

    https://ratings.fide.com/advaction.phtml?idcode=&name=&title=&other_title=&country=JPN&sex=&srating=2400&erating=3000&birthday=&radio=name&line=asc

    The reason is that it is not in their culture and they do not give a shit about chess as much as some other countries do. The reason that the IQ tests are doomed to fail is that they aim to measure certain cognitive abilities that reflect the culture of those who create those tests. If you put chess problems in those tests, Russia has the highest IQ. If you put math problems, Japan has the highest IQ. If you put specific tasks that aim to measure the survival abilities in the Saharan conditions, then Africans will have the highest IQ. The environmental factors have such a big effect on a person’s development that makes any meaningful test to measure a set of cognitive skills exponentially difficult. It is culture and environment that define what is important for and in a country to survive and the cognitive skills are tailored accordingly by the individuals.

    You cannot just strip away countless variables including poverty, accumulation of power, background differences, environmental conditions, etc. and claim that the black American kids perform worse in IQ tests due to hereditary differences.

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  • Although I was not surprised that my article (The IQ Gap is no Longer a Black and White Issue) attracted a lot of interest, I was actually shocked that it also impressed the Google Search algorithms. It became a top “authority” not only on topical searches like “black white IQ gap”, but even on very...
  • Well, I wonder why the author of this post is using 0.5 for hereditary? that should be a lower band.

    In the world today an average adult has IQ numbers indicating hereditary of near 0.8.

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  • In my last article, “Scrabble Spells Doom for the Racial Hypothesis of Intelligence,” I argued that Africans should not be able to come anywhere near dominating the games of Scrabble (both English and French) or professional checkers, as they apparently do, if their real biological intelligence was anywhere near as low as their nominal IQ...
  • Curious and impressed by the article.

    I never bought those tabulations of IQ in Africa in the 60s or 70s. It is just too implausible. Either Lynn is grasping for straws at obtaining samples and may be picking up tests that are flawed, or the environment is too dismal, or both. I’ve lived a couple of years in a poor African country. There were many few blacks that spoke the official language (in which presumably the tests were given) as his true first language. They grew up and had primary education in bantu languages, which essentially have no writing, or even numbers above two in many cases. The ones a little better off picked up English/French in their teens, sometimes in the form of a Creole, which obviously separates them in terms of vocabulary from the standard tests prepared in English or French. Besides, one has to take into account the standard explanation for the Flynn effect. People who were perfectly functional in the 1910s would score retarded today. That is because today the dominant patterns of reasoning are more aligned with the logic of the tests. Can’t this be the case in Africa?

    However, I would like a clarification on the author’s position on the “hereditarians”. Do you concede that the gap between blacks and whites within the US is partly genetic? None of the environmental explanations I put forward for Africa/US comparison holds for blacks and whites in America.

    Second, I would like to know why black Africans would outperform black Americans at the top. It defies both environmental and genetic explanations.

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  • Arthur Jensen's generation of race hereditarians (Eysenck, Rushton, Shockley and perhaps even Charles Murray et al) were quite different in posture from many of their current young followers. Jensen, like most of his friends, apparently wished to be proved wrong about his genetic hypothesis of racial differences in IQ because he genuinely hoped that what...
  • @Afrosapiens
    According to res' beloved brain drain data 14,54% of the highest skill group, 2,97% of the medium skill one and 5.85% of the lowest skill group have left Poland to other OECD countries between 2006 and 2005. Few must have left as illegals since Poles mostly emigrate to other European Union countries. These things do matter.

    According to my estimates based on education variables, Poland's mean IQ is 98. Knowing that years of education is not a perfect proxy for IQ test performance, Poland's averageIQ can reasonably be anywhere between 93 and 103.

    As for African-Americans, the 90 estimate and a gap reduced by one third of SD is consistent with similarly narrower gaps in education. See the math gap reduced by 40% since 1974, so the gap could even be narrower among the youngest cohorts.

    https://gfbrandenburg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/black-white-ach-gap-13yo-math-naep-ltt.png

    Moreover, Flynn's estimate is from the WAIS standardization sample which was meant to be representative, Jensen and Rushton's rebuttals were based on whatever samples they found to make their point. So they're worthless as usual.

    Now, when it comes to epigenetics, my understanding is that the effects only last for a couple of generations after a shock. So both slavery and serfdom are way too far behind to have lasting effects in my opinion. Whatever epigenetic disadvantage that African American have must be from currently living or having recent ancestors like grandparents that lived in violent ghettos.

    1. Arthur Jensen was a meticulously honest person. You are just demonizing someone whose research did not conform to your ideology. When Jensen began his research on ethnic differences in IQ, he believed that genetic differences did not account for much of the differences in average IQ across groups.

    2. Dickens and Flynn also found that the average IQ of 24 year-old African-Americans is 83.1. The typically finding in behavioral genetics is that heritability increases with age. So it is possible, for environmental reasons, that some of the score gaps at younger ages have narrowed, while (for genetic reasons) the score gap in adulthood has stayed about the same. As you may know, the score gap at age 7 in the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study was relatively small, but at age 17 there was again a big difference in average scores across groups.

    3. You might actually be handsome, but we are awaiting reports from independent referees.

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  • Or, how to immunize a proposition from debate through the insufferable boredom of impenetrable verbosity. “The covers of this book are too far apart,” said Winston.

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  • @Afrosapiens
    Res is exposing his intellectual shortsightedness again.

    How would a smart person use a ranking of countries by "selection rate" of emigrants?

    Would they just say "muh numbers are better muh Nigeria 6th most selected"? Or would they look at the whole ranking and look to see if there is a strong relationship between "selection rates" and the socio-economic outcomes of emigrants in OECD countries.

    For instance, I'm under the impression that Nigerian emigrants, in spite of a slightly lower "selection rate" than Filipinos have substantially better outcomes than Filipinos. How would you explain that if my impression is confirmed?

    Are you able to use your brain or are you just here to brag about the quality of the data that you find?

    • LOL: res

    • Triggered: res

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  • Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Okechukwu

    I was not to participate in the thread, and this is the really last one from me.
     
    You promise?

    I don't reply to all your posts, not because I'm conceding anything, but because this isn't my job. Maybe you should be a little less prolific. Maybe you should abridge your text so that you aren't writing a short novel with each contribution.

    you are projecting your own ideological motives into the discussion (and it particular Thompson’s link he is simply writing an abstract of a someone else’s study!)
     
    What ideological motives would those be? You're the one claiming that some populations are innately inferior intellectually with ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE to substantiate that claim. That's an ideologically based belief system informed by a yearning for the world to be organized according to your biases. It's an idea (etymological to ideology), not a reality based in fact.

    Every study which contradicts your worldview is “racially motivated”. Every scientists, no matter how valued in the field, even Jensen who is effing giant respected by even people who tried to debunk his theories, they are “racists” – because they propose theories you don’t like. You don’t like some theory, so it’s “pseudoscience”,
     
    So just because I'm black, I'm not allowed to criticize racist pseudo-"scientists" in the same way their white detractors do? And in which field is Jensen valuable? He was a clown. Your keyboard is not a scientific instrument. I know you've never attended an actual scientific conference. Well I've attended several all over the world. I assure you, none of the dodgy alchemy you hold dear is ever in evidence, nor will it ever be.

    Oh, let's take a brief look at your hero Jensen:

    Arthur Jensen was arguably the father of modern academic racism. For over 40 years, Jensen, an educational psychologist at the University of California, Berkeley, provided a patina of academic respectability to pseudoscientific theories of black inferiority and segregationist public policies. Jensen was responsible for resurrecting the idea that the black population is inherently and immutably less intelligent than the white population, an ideology that immediately became known as “jensenism.”

    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/arthur-jensen

    As for the book's findings, none of its "research" was new or original. The authors drew on several sources, none of whom were reputable geneticists. In fact, many were long discredited IQ researchers such as Arthur Jensen who hypothesized in 1969 that blacks were inferior and set out to prove it. They also cited Philip Rushton, a professor at the University of Western Ontario, whose own pronouncements on race drew fire from geneticists across the world. His theory of sexual-mental tradeoffs (i.e., people with larger genitalia suffered from decreased mental capacity) expressed in human races was declared "plainly science" by Murray and Herrnstein, even though Rushton stands alone in supporting it.

    https://www.samtiden.com/tbc/las_artikel.php?id=20

    As you can see, Arthur Jensen was being described as a phony pseudoscientific charlatan long before I was even born. So those ideas certainly did not originate with me as you seem to be alleging. And if you are not a racist bigot yourself, and if indeed you are genuinely interested in dispassionate scientific inquiry, why do you dismiss out of hand those researchers that contradict Jensen? This is yet more evidence that you are the ideologue, not me.

    In short, discussion with you is useless, because you keep on repeating the same arguments over and over, and most of them is not even YOUR OWN arguments, since I’ve have heard them before.
     
    Huh? First of all, your posts here outnumber mine by at least 6 to 1. My writing is infinitely more original than yours. You're basically regurgitating discredited junk that can be traced all the way back to 19th century scientific racism and phrenology. We all know your ideas aren't original, racist pseudoscience never is. I know you glean most of your material and "data" from various Internet sites run by scientifically illiterate and mathematically challenged bloggers who would never have the balls to present their "research" at a legitimate scientific conference. Most of them know it's all bullshit, but they're trying to promote an ideology with the goal of swaying the gullible and stupid.

    Then you use guilt by asssociation saying “not diverse” = “inculcating with racism”. Ugh,
     
    I will excuse your lack of reading comprehension because English isn't your first language. But should you really argue these points with such passion and conviction when you can't even decode simple sentences?

    First of all, your posts here outnumber mine by at least 6 to 1.

    (6/1) > (75/47)

    My writing is infinitely more original than yours.

    ??

    being described as a phony pseudoscientific charlatan

    … by the SPLC**. Lol. On the other hand he is considered a great scientist by Flynn. Of the Flynn effect. Which of these opinions seems more reliable to you?

    So just because I’m black, I’m not allowed to criticize racist pseudo-”scientists” in the same way their white detractors do?

    Was it you or the other guy* who thought white people were only advancing opinions of szopen’s kind out of desire to preserve their “group privilege”? Further, where do you see “just because I’m black” in

    Every study which contradicts your worldview is “racially motivated”. Every scientists, no matter how valued in the field, even Jensen who is effing giant respected by even people who tried to debunk his theories, they are “racists” – because they propose theories you don’t like. You don’t like some theory, so it’s “pseudoscience”,

    ?

    Maybe you should be a little less prolific. Maybe you should abridge your text so that you aren’t writing a short novel with each contribution.

    says the guy who writes an 800-word reply to a 500-word comment.

    *It doesn’t matter, because he “agrees” with you. Does he agree with the points quoted here?

    **And by some nonentity called Rawat.

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  • @szopen
    I was not to participate in the thread, and this is the really last one from me.

    It’s hilarious to see you frantically trying to impeach Putnam, who is your own expert witness, after discovering that he actually supports my thesis and not yours.
     
    You have serious problems with reading comprehension. I have not "discovered" antyhing, because I have read his essay something like eight or nine effing years ago and I've knew his arguments already (which I've written above, that in your link he is basically repeating his arguments from the essay WHICH I EFFING ALREADY READ BEFORE. I don't know whether why you have problem to understand it). SImply put, he has right to his opinions, but he has no exclusive ownership over facts he has discovered or their interpretation. The things he is saying about diversity gains are mostly his anecdotal evidence or his opinions; the things he wrote about diversity disadvantages are hard facts.

    Second, I see now that all you bring to the discussion is saying "X is clown", you are projecting your own ideological motives into the discussion (and it particular Thompson's link he is simply writing an abstract of a someone else's study!). Every study which contradicts your worldview is "racially motivated". Every scientists, no matter how valued in the field, even Jensen who is effing giant respected by even people who tried to debunk his theories, they are "racists" - because they propose theories you don't like. You don't like some theory, so it's "pseudoscience", while with stone face you say some voodoo theory about stereotype threat is true, seemingly without even knowing alternative theories which are more parsimonious, such like Jensen's explanation invoking Yerkes-Dodson law, and without even knowing that while IQ results are the most replicated results in psychology, stereotype threat findings currently are one of two main examples (second is priming) of recent "replication crisis" in psychology.

    In short, discussion with you is useless, because you keep on repeating the same arguments over and over, and most of them is not even YOUR OWN arguments, since I've have heard them before. You seemingly even can't understand a simple sentence by my own. For example, I have not claimed "diversity is not inevitable" (nor i have claimed "diversity is inevitable"). I have written that the argument is absurd, because using the same argument we could argue that murders, races, hunger, climate changes, diseases, death, racism, sexism, are all inevitable and therefore we cannot do anything about that.

    Then you use guilt by asssociation saying "not diverse" = "inculcating with racism". Ugh,.

    I cannot even say how abhorrent and disgusting I find your kind (by which I mean your ideological stance, not your race or nation). No arguments, no logic, just repeating someone else's rhetorics. EOT. I won't read your answer, I am adding you to the ignore list.

    I was not to participate in the thread, and this is the really last one from me.

    You promise?

    I don’t reply to all your posts, not because I’m conceding anything, but because this isn’t my job. Maybe you should be a little less prolific. Maybe you should abridge your text so that you aren’t writing a short novel with each contribution.

    you are projecting your own ideological motives into the discussion (and it particular Thompson’s link he is simply writing an abstract of a someone else’s study!)

    What ideological motives would those be? You’re the one claiming that some populations are innately inferior intellectually with ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE to substantiate that claim. That’s an ideologically based belief system informed by a yearning for the world to be organized according to your biases. It’s an idea (etymological to ideology), not a reality based in fact.

    Every study which contradicts your worldview is “racially motivated”. Every scientists, no matter how valued in the field, even Jensen who is effing giant respected by even people who tried to debunk his theories, they are “racists” – because they propose theories you don’t like. You don’t like some theory, so it’s “pseudoscience”,

    So just because I’m black, I’m not allowed to criticize racist pseudo-”scientists” in the same way their white detractors do? And in which field is Jensen valuable? He was a clown. Your keyboard is not a scientific instrument. I know you’ve never attended an actual scientific conference. Well I’ve attended several all over the world. I assure you, none of the dodgy alchemy you hold dear is ever in evidence, nor will it ever be.

    Oh, let’s take a brief look at your hero Jensen:

    Arthur Jensen was arguably the father of modern academic racism. For over 40 years, Jensen, an educational psychologist at the University of California, Berkeley, provided a patina of academic respectability to pseudoscientific theories of black inferiority and segregationist public policies. Jensen was responsible for resurrecting the idea that the black population is inherently and immutably less intelligent than the white population, an ideology that immediately became known as “jensenism.”

    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/arthur-jensen

    As for the book’s findings, none of its “research” was new or original. The authors drew on several sources, none of whom were reputable geneticists. In fact, many were long discredited IQ researchers such as Arthur Jensen who hypothesized in 1969 that blacks were inferior and set out to prove it. They also cited Philip Rushton, a professor at the University of Western Ontario, whose own pronouncements on race drew fire from geneticists across the world. His theory of sexual-mental tradeoffs (i.e., people with larger genitalia suffered from decreased mental capacity) expressed in human races was declared “plainly science” by Murray and Herrnstein, even though Rushton stands alone in supporting it.

    https://www.samtiden.com/tbc/las_artikel.php?id=20

    As you can see, Arthur Jensen was being described as a phony pseudoscientific charlatan long before I was even born. So those ideas certainly did not originate with me as you seem to be alleging. And if you are not a racist bigot yourself, and if indeed you are genuinely interested in dispassionate scientific inquiry, why do you dismiss out of hand those researchers that contradict Jensen? This is yet more evidence that you are the ideologue, not me.

    In short, discussion with you is useless, because you keep on repeating the same arguments over and over, and most of them is not even YOUR OWN arguments, since I’ve have heard them before.

    Huh? First of all, your posts here outnumber mine by at least 6 to 1. My writing is infinitely more original than yours. You’re basically regurgitating discredited junk that can be traced all the way back to 19th century scientific racism and phrenology. We all know your ideas aren’t original, racist pseudoscience never is. I know you glean most of your material and “data” from various Internet sites run by scientifically illiterate and mathematically challenged bloggers who would never have the balls to present their “research” at a legitimate scientific conference. Most of them know it’s all bullshit, but they’re trying to promote an ideology with the goal of swaying the gullible and stupid.

    Then you use guilt by asssociation saying “not diverse” = “inculcating with racism”. Ugh,

    I will excuse your lack of reading comprehension because English isn’t your first language. But should you really argue these points with such passion and conviction when you can’t even decode simple sentences?

    Read More
    • Agree: Afrosapiens
    • Replies: @Anon

    First of all, your posts here outnumber mine by at least 6 to 1.
     
    (6/1) > (75/47)

    My writing is infinitely more original than yours.
     
    ??

    being described as a phony pseudoscientific charlatan
     
    ... by the SPLC**. Lol. On the other hand he is considered a great scientist by Flynn. Of the Flynn effect. Which of these opinions seems more reliable to you?

    So just because I’m black, I’m not allowed to criticize racist pseudo-”scientists” in the same way their white detractors do?
     
    Was it you or the other guy* who thought white people were only advancing opinions of szopen's kind out of desire to preserve their "group privilege"? Further, where do you see "just because I'm black" in

    Every study which contradicts your worldview is “racially motivated”. Every scientists, no matter how valued in the field, even Jensen who is effing giant respected by even people who tried to debunk his theories, they are “racists” – because they propose theories you don’t like. You don’t like some theory, so it’s “pseudoscience”,
     
    ?

    Maybe you should be a little less prolific. Maybe you should abridge your text so that you aren’t writing a short novel with each contribution.
     
    says the guy who writes an 800-word reply to a 500-word comment.

    *It doesn't matter, because he "agrees" with you. Does he agree with the points quoted here?

    **And by some nonentity called Rawat.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Okechukwu

    Sure, but you suggested basically that recent peace is a result of new diversity in (western) European countries. Yet, there are countries which participated in this long peace which are not diverse, or which were peaceful before they became diverse. Hence the fact that “western Europe became more diverse” and “Europe is at peace” can NOT be argument that it is a diversity which causes this long peace. Q.E.D.
     
    I never claimed that greater diversity is responsible for peace in Europe. I said Europe was much less peaceful in the past (before increased diversity) and that increasing diversity has coincided with the longest period of peace in European history. No state of existence is more conflictive than war. And Europe was largely a war zone interrupted by intermittent periods of relative peace.

    Hard to say. I would say both contributed, and diversity has NOT contributed.
     
    Oh, yes it has. As your own source Putnam says:

    The third finding of E Pluribus Unum shows that in the medium to long term, diversity leads to many positive results. Id. at 138-39. Because notions of“diversity” are based on “socially constructed
    identities,” the adaptation to diversity over time requires Americans (or Europeans) to develop a more encompassing sense of “we.”


    And

    Broad diversity, including racial and ethnic diversity, in higher education (or in nation states) creates other powerful benefits, such as fostering collective creativity in workgroups, and “produc[ing] much better, faster problem-solving.”

    Putnam also talks about the importance of intellectual diversity. The antipathy and misapprehension which lead to conflict often are germinated in cocoonized environments bereft of any inputs that challenge conventional wisdom or accepted norms. You see the same phenomenon in Internet echo chambers. Many of the white supremacists in Charlottesville actually believed that their ideas were normative. They had been so thoroughly indoctrinated and radicalized in one immutable and abhorrent belief system.

    It’s like saying Gabonese are black. Blacks dominate sports. Therefore, Gabonese dominate sports.
     
    Inappropriate analogy. European culture is very uniform. African culture is diffuse. A single African country like can exhibit more cultural divergence than all of Europe combined.

    Sure, bunch of wackos without much official support (though they were able to influence some ministries).
     
    That describes virtually every colonial project of the last 1000 years -- from the Pilgrims to Ponce de Leon to Cortes to Pizarro to Cecil Rhodes and even to Sam Houston in Texas. Governments only put their seal of approval on a successful colonial adventure.

    “A realistic discussion of these issues would be far less valuable without students from a wide array of backgrounds”, so we have to increase diversity so Putnam can have better discussions on diversity. An absurd argument.
     
    Dr. Thompson is a racially-motivated clown. I don't take seriously anyone who espouses HBD or race-realism because they're not interested in science, facts or even reality. They're ideologues.

    It’s hilarious to see you frantically trying to impeach Putnam, who is your own expert witness, after discovering that he actually supports my thesis and not yours. This is not atypical among people who advocate for this sort of racialized pseudoscience. Often they unwittingly debunk themselves with their own sources.

    Not to mention his absurd argument about “inevitability” of increasing diversity, which I keep hearing for years, with people repeating it seemingly not realising how absurd this argument sounds.
     
    Duh...of course increased diversity is inevitable. Look around you. The world is shrinking, enabled by technology, travel, immigration and cultural exchange. Putnam's reasoning is sound. Here in America parents who do not expose their children to diversity are potentially consigning them to a miserable existence as adults. Parents can actually ruin their children's lives if they inculcate them with racist attitudes. Because if they take those attitudes into the wider (diverse) world of today, it could destroy their careers and reputations. We've seen many examples of this with people being fired, expelled from school or becoming socially ostracized for simply repeating racist slurs that were part of the common lexicon in their cloistered home environments and social circles.

    I was not to participate in the thread, and this is the really last one from me.

    It’s hilarious to see you frantically trying to impeach Putnam, who is your own expert witness, after discovering that he actually supports my thesis and not yours.

    You have serious problems with reading comprehension. I have not “discovered” antyhing, because I have read his essay something like eight or nine effing years ago and I’ve knew his arguments already (which I’ve written above, that in your link he is basically repeating his arguments from the essay WHICH I EFFING ALREADY READ BEFORE. I don’t know whether why you have problem to understand it). SImply put, he has right to his opinions, but he has no exclusive ownership over facts he has discovered or their interpretation. The things he is saying about diversity gains are mostly his anecdotal evidence or his opinions; the things he wrote about diversity disadvantages are hard facts.

    Second, I see now that all you bring to the discussion is saying “X is clown”, you are projecting your own ideological motives into the discussion (and it particular Thompson’s link he is simply writing an abstract of a someone else’s study!). Every study which contradicts your worldview is “racially motivated”. Every scientists, no matter how valued in the field, even Jensen who is effing giant respected by even people who tried to debunk his theories, they are “racists” – because they propose theories you don’t like. You don’t like some theory, so it’s “pseudoscience”, while with stone face you say some voodoo theory about stereotype threat is true, seemingly without even knowing alternative theories which are more parsimonious, such like Jensen’s explanation invoking Yerkes-Dodson law, and without even knowing that while IQ results are the most replicated results in psychology, stereotype threat findings currently are one of two main examples (second is priming) of recent “replication crisis” in psychology.

    In short, discussion with you is useless, because you keep on repeating the same arguments over and over, and most of them is not even YOUR OWN arguments, since I’ve have heard them before. You seemingly even can’t understand a simple sentence by my own. For example, I have not claimed “diversity is not inevitable” (nor i have claimed “diversity is inevitable”). I have written that the argument is absurd, because using the same argument we could argue that murders, races, hunger, climate changes, diseases, death, racism, sexism, are all inevitable and therefore we cannot do anything about that.

    Then you use guilt by asssociation saying “not diverse” = “inculcating with racism”. Ugh,.

    I cannot even say how abhorrent and disgusting I find your kind (by which I mean your ideological stance, not your race or nation). No arguments, no logic, just repeating someone else’s rhetorics. EOT. I won’t read your answer, I am adding you to the ignore list.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Okechukwu

    I was not to participate in the thread, and this is the really last one from me.
     
    You promise?

    I don't reply to all your posts, not because I'm conceding anything, but because this isn't my job. Maybe you should be a little less prolific. Maybe you should abridge your text so that you aren't writing a short novel with each contribution.

    you are projecting your own ideological motives into the discussion (and it particular Thompson’s link he is simply writing an abstract of a someone else’s study!)
     
    What ideological motives would those be? You're the one claiming that some populations are innately inferior intellectually with ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE to substantiate that claim. That's an ideologically based belief system informed by a yearning for the world to be organized according to your biases. It's an idea (etymological to ideology), not a reality based in fact.

    Every study which contradicts your worldview is “racially motivated”. Every scientists, no matter how valued in the field, even Jensen who is effing giant respected by even people who tried to debunk his theories, they are “racists” – because they propose theories you don’t like. You don’t like some theory, so it’s “pseudoscience”,
     
    So just because I'm black, I'm not allowed to criticize racist pseudo-"scientists" in the same way their white detractors do? And in which field is Jensen valuable? He was a clown. Your keyboard is not a scientific instrument. I know you've never attended an actual scientific conference. Well I've attended several all over the world. I assure you, none of the dodgy alchemy you hold dear is ever in evidence, nor will it ever be.

    Oh, let's take a brief look at your hero Jensen:

    Arthur Jensen was arguably the father of modern academic racism. For over 40 years, Jensen, an educational psychologist at the University of California, Berkeley, provided a patina of academic respectability to pseudoscientific theories of black inferiority and segregationist public policies. Jensen was responsible for resurrecting the idea that the black population is inherently and immutably less intelligent than the white population, an ideology that immediately became known as “jensenism.”

    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/arthur-jensen

    As for the book's findings, none of its "research" was new or original. The authors drew on several sources, none of whom were reputable geneticists. In fact, many were long discredited IQ researchers such as Arthur Jensen who hypothesized in 1969 that blacks were inferior and set out to prove it. They also cited Philip Rushton, a professor at the University of Western Ontario, whose own pronouncements on race drew fire from geneticists across the world. His theory of sexual-mental tradeoffs (i.e., people with larger genitalia suffered from decreased mental capacity) expressed in human races was declared "plainly science" by Murray and Herrnstein, even though Rushton stands alone in supporting it.

    https://www.samtiden.com/tbc/las_artikel.php?id=20

    As you can see, Arthur Jensen was being described as a phony pseudoscientific charlatan long before I was even born. So those ideas certainly did not originate with me as you seem to be alleging. And if you are not a racist bigot yourself, and if indeed you are genuinely interested in dispassionate scientific inquiry, why do you dismiss out of hand those researchers that contradict Jensen? This is yet more evidence that you are the ideologue, not me.

    In short, discussion with you is useless, because you keep on repeating the same arguments over and over, and most of them is not even YOUR OWN arguments, since I’ve have heard them before.
     
    Huh? First of all, your posts here outnumber mine by at least 6 to 1. My writing is infinitely more original than yours. You're basically regurgitating discredited junk that can be traced all the way back to 19th century scientific racism and phrenology. We all know your ideas aren't original, racist pseudoscience never is. I know you glean most of your material and "data" from various Internet sites run by scientifically illiterate and mathematically challenged bloggers who would never have the balls to present their "research" at a legitimate scientific conference. Most of them know it's all bullshit, but they're trying to promote an ideology with the goal of swaying the gullible and stupid.

    Then you use guilt by asssociation saying “not diverse” = “inculcating with racism”. Ugh,
     
    I will excuse your lack of reading comprehension because English isn't your first language. But should you really argue these points with such passion and conviction when you can't even decode simple sentences?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @szopen

    First of all, Japan has a blood-soaked history, ... Every country you identified as exemplars of homogeneity-induced peaceful co-existence, including Poland and Sweden, had intense periods of internecine warfare.
     
    Sure, but you suggested basically that recent peace is a result of new diversity in (western) European countries. Yet, there are countries which participated in this long peace which are not diverse, or which were peaceful before they became diverse. Hence the fact that "western Europe became more diverse" and "Europe is at peace" can NOT be argument that it is a diversity which causes this long peace. Q.E.D.

    Is it US occupation or the rise of democracies that has kept the peace? Make up your mind.
     
    Hard to say. I would say both contributed, and diversity has NOT contributed.

    This makes no sense.
     
    Exactly. We had long period of peace before, without that much immigrants from Africa. Hence claim that it were those imigrants who enabled peace makes no sense.

    homogeneity is meaningless in the context of ever-shifting European borders. Your region in particular has been sliced and diced so much that to describe any country there as genetically or culturally distinct is absurd.

     

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/06/strong-differentiation-between-germans.html

    But sure, from my father's mother side I had some German in a family (a grandmother of my father's mother). Yet, the majority of my ancestors were Polish, speaking Polish. However, saying that because we are similar that means we are the same and not distinct is wrong.


    Poland is a European country. European culture is dominant. Therefore Polish culture is dominant.
     
    No. Because there are things specific to Polish culture which differentiate us from other European countries. For starters, I do not care if English is dominant in the world, because it is not my language. I care about Polish language, Polish movies, Polish books, Polish myths and legends.

    It's like saying Gabonese are black. Blacks dominate sports. Therefore, Gabonese dominate sports.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_division

    Colonization attempts by Poland
     
    Sure, bunch of wackos without much official support (though they were able to influence some ministries). But still, we had no colonies, period. Or, hey! I know a perfect argument. It goes like this:

    European countries had colonies in 19th century. Poland is European country (it doesn't matter we were arguably close to colony ourselves) . Therefore, Poland had colonies :D.


    Maybe you should read Putnam’s legal brief in support of the University of Texas, Austin in UT v. Fisher.
     
    I browsed it and it seems that basically he repeats his arguments from "E pluribus unum" essay.

    "Research has shown that broad diversity can produce improved problem solving." WRONG. It was discussed by dr Thompson at Unz.com. Diversity of ideologies is better than ethnic/racial diversity.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/hbr-cognitive-diversity-not-identity-diversity-matters-in-problem-solving/

    "A realistic discussion of these issues would be far less valuable without students from a wide array of backgrounds", so we have to increase diversity so Putnam can have better discussions on diversity. An absurd argument.

    Moreover, in Putnam essay, he laid down the facts that diversity decreases social capital, and THEN committed several pages to discussing his opinion: in short, that those facts are wrong. As you are probably aware, he was actually delaying publication of his data for many years, because he didn't like the results. I see no point with putting the same weight to his opinions from the essay, as to the datahe gathered.

    increased diversity tends to enhance creativity, as reflected in the large percentages of
    immigrants who have won Nobel Prizes
    this argument is laughable, as not all immigrants are the same. A lot of them were in fact Ashkenazi Jewish. When I read this argument in Putnam essay (as in your link he basically repeats all arguments from his essay) I laughed aloud. People are not the same, and throwing all kinds of people irregardless of their ethnicity/ancestry into one bucket labelled "immigrants" is just either extremely naive, or dishonest. Since Putnam, despite making clear that he is biased, decided to publish data which contradicted his worldview, in his case I would go with naïveté.

    Not to mention his absurd argument about "inevitability" of increasing diversity, which I keep hearing for years, with people repeating it seemingly not realising how absurd this argument sounds.

    Some men were always raping women, so it is inevitable and we should not do anything about that.

    It is inevitable that murders happen, people were always murdering, so let's get rid of police.

    Climate changes will likely cause water shortages, it's inevitable, hence let's not do anything about that.

    I will read your answer, but I do not promise I will reply. This discussion eats too much of my time and I already promised myself in comment 619 and then 847 that I will stop; no offense intended.

    Sure, but you suggested basically that recent peace is a result of new diversity in (western) European countries. Yet, there are countries which participated in this long peace which are not diverse, or which were peaceful before they became diverse. Hence the fact that “western Europe became more diverse” and “Europe is at peace” can NOT be argument that it is a diversity which causes this long peace. Q.E.D.

    I never claimed that greater diversity is responsible for peace in Europe. I said Europe was much less peaceful in the past (before increased diversity) and that increasing diversity has coincided with the longest period of peace in European history. No state of existence is more conflictive than war. And Europe was largely a war zone interrupted by intermittent periods of relative peace.

    Hard to say. I would say both contributed, and diversity has NOT contributed.

    Oh, yes it has. As your own source Putnam says:

    The third finding of E Pluribus Unum shows that in the medium to long term, diversity leads to many positive results. Id. at 138-39. Because notions of“diversity” are based on “socially constructed
    identities,” the adaptation to diversity over time requires Americans (or Europeans) to develop a more encompassing sense of “we.”

    And

    Broad diversity, including racial and ethnic diversity, in higher education (or in nation states) creates other powerful benefits, such as fostering collective creativity in workgroups, and “produc[ing] much better, faster problem-solving.”

    Putnam also talks about the importance of intellectual diversity. The antipathy and misapprehension which lead to conflict often are germinated in cocoonized environments bereft of any inputs that challenge conventional wisdom or accepted norms. You see the same phenomenon in Internet echo chambers. Many of the white supremacists in Charlottesville actually believed that their ideas were normative. They had been so thoroughly indoctrinated and radicalized in one immutable and abhorrent belief system.

    It’s like saying Gabonese are black. Blacks dominate sports. Therefore, Gabonese dominate sports.

    Inappropriate analogy. European culture is very uniform. African culture is diffuse. A single African country like can exhibit more cultural divergence than all of Europe combined.

    Sure, bunch of wackos without much official support (though they were able to influence some ministries).

    That describes virtually every colonial project of the last 1000 years — from the Pilgrims to Ponce de Leon to Cortes to Pizarro to Cecil Rhodes and even to Sam Houston in Texas. Governments only put their seal of approval on a successful colonial adventure.

    “A realistic discussion of these issues would be far less valuable without students from a wide array of backgrounds”, so we have to increase diversity so Putnam can have better discussions on diversity. An absurd argument.

    Dr. Thompson is a racially-motivated clown. I don’t take seriously anyone who espouses HBD or race-realism because they’re not interested in science, facts or even reality. They’re ideologues.

    It’s hilarious to see you frantically trying to impeach Putnam, who is your own expert witness, after discovering that he actually supports my thesis and not yours. This is not atypical among people who advocate for this sort of racialized pseudoscience. Often they unwittingly debunk themselves with their own sources.

    Not to mention his absurd argument about “inevitability” of increasing diversity, which I keep hearing for years, with people repeating it seemingly not realising how absurd this argument sounds.

    Duh…of course increased diversity is inevitable. Look around you. The world is shrinking, enabled by technology, travel, immigration and cultural exchange. Putnam’s reasoning is sound. Here in America parents who do not expose their children to diversity are potentially consigning them to a miserable existence as adults. Parents can actually ruin their children’s lives if they inculcate them with racist attitudes. Because if they take those attitudes into the wider (diverse) world of today, it could destroy their careers and reputations. We’ve seen many examples of this with people being fired, expelled from school or becoming socially ostracized for simply repeating racist slurs that were part of the common lexicon in their cloistered home environments and social circles.

    Read More
    • Replies: @szopen
    I was not to participate in the thread, and this is the really last one from me.

    It’s hilarious to see you frantically trying to impeach Putnam, who is your own expert witness, after discovering that he actually supports my thesis and not yours.
     
    You have serious problems with reading comprehension. I have not "discovered" antyhing, because I have read his essay something like eight or nine effing years ago and I've knew his arguments already (which I've written above, that in your link he is basically repeating his arguments from the essay WHICH I EFFING ALREADY READ BEFORE. I don't know whether why you have problem to understand it). SImply put, he has right to his opinions, but he has no exclusive ownership over facts he has discovered or their interpretation. The things he is saying about diversity gains are mostly his anecdotal evidence or his opinions; the things he wrote about diversity disadvantages are hard facts.

    Second, I see now that all you bring to the discussion is saying "X is clown", you are projecting your own ideological motives into the discussion (and it particular Thompson's link he is simply writing an abstract of a someone else's study!). Every study which contradicts your worldview is "racially motivated". Every scientists, no matter how valued in the field, even Jensen who is effing giant respected by even people who tried to debunk his theories, they are "racists" - because they propose theories you don't like. You don't like some theory, so it's "pseudoscience", while with stone face you say some voodoo theory about stereotype threat is true, seemingly without even knowing alternative theories which are more parsimonious, such like Jensen's explanation invoking Yerkes-Dodson law, and without even knowing that while IQ results are the most replicated results in psychology, stereotype threat findings currently are one of two main examples (second is priming) of recent "replication crisis" in psychology.

    In short, discussion with you is useless, because you keep on repeating the same arguments over and over, and most of them is not even YOUR OWN arguments, since I've have heard them before. You seemingly even can't understand a simple sentence by my own. For example, I have not claimed "diversity is not inevitable" (nor i have claimed "diversity is inevitable"). I have written that the argument is absurd, because using the same argument we could argue that murders, races, hunger, climate changes, diseases, death, racism, sexism, are all inevitable and therefore we cannot do anything about that.

    Then you use guilt by asssociation saying "not diverse" = "inculcating with racism". Ugh,.

    I cannot even say how abhorrent and disgusting I find your kind (by which I mean your ideological stance, not your race or nation). No arguments, no logic, just repeating someone else's rhetorics. EOT. I won't read your answer, I am adding you to the ignore list.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @res

    Well, if you’re done you’re done. We can give you arguments but can’t force you to think, nor are we interested in that.
     
    You might also turn that second sentence around. (only I would use "I", not sure why you said "we")

    Just because a group appears to be selected on some random level of education DOES NOT MEAN it is selected on INTELLIGENCE unless you KNOW the correlation between level of education and intelligence FOR THAT SOCIETY.
     
    This statement is important. It seems to be the core of your argument (and I enjoyed all the caps). There is indeed a possibility this is true. There is also a possibility the sun will not rise tomorrow morning. What you are saying in effect is that it is likely that the average low and medium skill Nigerian has equivalent IQ to the average high skill Nigerian emigrant. This is irrefutable without data--which Nigeria seems to be unable to collect. Within the US we see averages along the lines of 87 IQ for less than 10 years of schooling up to 124 IQ for doctorate level: https://brainsize.wordpress.com/2014/06/02/iq-years-of-education/

    Yet you seem to be asserting there is no similar relationship in Nigeria. OK. I guess we will just wait for data. I think everyone who has an open mind can make their own inferences. I am curious what your professional colleagues would make of your argument.

    Meanwhile, for anyone who believes selection by educational level indicates something important, here is another paper from 2006: International Migration by Educational Attainment (1990-2000)
    This research is based on the brain drain data. It really is the best data available for this topic.
    http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/APCITY/UNPAN022366.pdf

    From the text on page 24:


    In relative terms (in proportion of the educated labor force), small countries are the most affected. The emigration rate exceeds 80 percent in nations such as Guyana, Jamaica, Haiti, Grenada, and St. Vincent and the Grenadines. One could argue that the distance from the United States is a key element explaining the high emigration rates from these countries. Nevertheless, we believe that the reality is much more complex. Migration decisions of skilled workers are likely to be less dependent on distances. It also appears that some African countries exhibit high rates of skilled migration. The rate of skilled migration exceeds 50 percent in five African countries (67.5 percent in Cape Verde, 63.3 percent in The Gambia, 55.9 percent in the Seychelles, 56.2 percent in Mauritius, and 52.5 percent in Sierra Leone). Excluding small countries (population below 5 million), column 5 stresses the importance of the brain drain in Africa and Central America. On the western and eastern coasts of Africa, tremendous rates of emigration are found in nations such as Ghana, Mozambique, Sierra Leone, Kenya, Uganda, Angola, and Somalia. In Asia, the countries most affected by migration are the Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Sri Lanka, Hong Kong (China), Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Cambodia. Regarding Europe, emigration rates are particularly strong in Portugal, the Slovak Republic, and the United Kingdom. The last column in table 5.3 reveals that countries from the former Soviet Union and the Gulf States exhibit small rates of migration. This is also the case of OECD countries, such as Japan, France, Sweden, Australia, and the United States. Finally, it is worth noting that developing countries with large stocks of skilled emigrants may exhibit low rates of emigration. This is the case in India (4.3 percent), China (3.8 percent), Indonesia (2.1 percent), and
    Brazil (2.2 percent).

    Many economists have demonstrated that immigrants are not randomly selected. An interesting selection indicator is given by the proportion of skilled emigrants in the total emigration stock. Table 5.4 gives the 30 highest and lowest selection rates among emigrants. The highest selection rates are observed in Asian countries where the rate of brain drain is rather low. Interestingly, Qatar, Oman, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and Kuwait exhibit drastic selection rates despite a low brain drain. Other high-education countries are affected—Taiwan (China), Japan, Hong Kong (China), Canada, and Israel—as well as a few African countries—including Nigeria, Swaziland, South Africa, and Zambia. At the other extremity of the distribution, selection rates are low in traditional unskilled emigration countries such as Turkey, Mali, Portugal, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, and Mauritania. Several OECD countries also exhibit low selection rates (such as Portugal, Mexico, Italy, the Slovak Republic, and Spain). The selection is rather low in a few poor countries characterized by an important brain drain (for example, Senegal, The Gambia, Samoa, Suriname, and Mozambique).

     

    This is a long quote because there is a great deal of important context here. First, it is important to notice that highly selected emigration rate does not necessarily correspond with the most severe brain drain. The raw emigration rate is critically important.

    One point for calibration. The brain drain data gives an emigration rate for China in 2000 of 0.21% (contrast to 3.8% skilled rate above). This aligns with the roughly 10x selectivity (1.95%/0.17% = 11.5) we see for China using my method. Source population data is necessary to calculate their version. Drawing accurate conclusions depends on knowing the proportions of each group in the source population.

    To repeat: "The highest selection rates are observed in Asian countries where the rate of brain drain is rather low."

    So as I observed earlier highly skill selective emigration does not necessarily imply a high brain drain. I have to update my earlier assumptions on that (see, I can learn from new information). unfortunately this paper does not give numbers for Nigeria's brain drain and I don't believe it is possible to calculate it from the publicly released brain drain data (the home population numbers are missing).

    Back to my primary point: "The highest selection rates...as well as a few African
    countries—including Nigeria, Swaziland, South Africa, and Zambia."

    So as I contended Nigeria has selective emigration. Not only that, but Nigeria has the highest selection rate (65%) in Africa and the 6th highest in the world. See Table S4.

    Now that is confirmation!

    Table S.4 gives a list of top ranked countries by emigration stock, emigration rate, and emigration selectivity along with the exact numbers.

    Table 5.3 provides an insightful overview by region.

    I know this won't convince Chanda and a number of commenters here (and I realize it does not address his argument above, which as I said is irrefutable without data). I am fine with that. But I request anyone with an interest in the topic of selective emigration and brain drain to take a look at this paper. It presents a useful interpretation of the data in a very informative way. I just wish they had made their results available for all countries.

    P.S. A slightly older version of that paper is available inline at: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228739789_International_Migration_by_Educational_Attainment_1990-2000-Release_11
    if anyone is interested in taking a quick look. It does not have the table and text above though--see the linked PDF for that.

    P.P.S. This was an interesting quote from the paper: "It is well documented that statistics provided by origin countries do not provide a realistic picture of emigration. When available, they are incomplete and imprecise."

    Res is exposing his intellectual shortsightedness again.

    How would a smart person use a ranking of countries by “selection rate” of emigrants?

    Would they just say “muh numbers are better muh Nigeria 6th most selected”? Or would they look at the whole ranking and look to see if there is a strong relationship between “selection rates” and the socio-economic outcomes of emigrants in OECD countries.

    For instance, I’m under the impression that Nigerian emigrants, in spite of a slightly lower “selection rate” than Filipinos have substantially better outcomes than Filipinos. How would you explain that if my impression is confirmed?

    Are you able to use your brain or are you just here to brag about the quality of the data that you find?

    Read More
    • LOL: res
    • Replies: @Afrosapiens

    • LOL: res
     
    • Triggered: res
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @szopen
    What do you mean? The Haitian episode is well-known in POland; less known is the fact about "murzynek" Jabłonowski (IIRC), the only black (actually, mulatto) Polish general.

    Though usually when we heard about Haitian episode it is treated as example on how Polish fighters, who were supposed to fight "for freedom our and yours" were exploited by evil westerners for their imperialist goals :D as most of Polish legionnaires sent there died from febra, without much sense.

    That Poles wre "white Negroes" (or "wild Iroquis") was repeated many times; even jokingly in Poland during communism, when one of the Polish artists jokingly said that world should be interested in us and help us too, because "we are Negroes too".

    Anyways, here you have an example of modern black Pole (mulatto, actually). He IS Pole; which does not mean that anyone can just become POle by getting Polish citizenship; and does not mean we should accept tens of thousands instead of few dozens.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0mqC_CKEoI

    What do you mean?

    Nothing, just asking your thoughts about Poles becoming Haitians.

    Anyways, here you have an example of modern black Pole (mulatto, actually). He IS Pole;

    Would you call him a Pole if he was a leftist making a pro-immigration speech or complaining about the word murzyn?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Afrosapiens
    Dessalines called Polish people "the White Negroes of Europe", which was then regarded a great honour, as it meant brotherhood between Poles and Haitians. Many years later, Papa Doc reminded about this concept when referring to Polish people.[6][7] For their loyalty and support for overthrowing the French, the Poles acquired Haitian citizenship after Haiti gained its Independence, and settled there to never return to Poland. To this day, many Polish Haitians still live in Haiti and are of mixed racial origin, as some have blonde hair, light eyes, and other European features. Most settled in Cazale, La Vallée-de-Jacmel, Fond-des-Blancs, La Baleine, Port-Salut and Saint-Jean-du-Sud.[2][8]

    What do you think about that?

    What do you mean? The Haitian episode is well-known in POland; less known is the fact about “murzynek” Jabłonowski (IIRC), the only black (actually, mulatto) Polish general.

    Though usually when we heard about Haitian episode it is treated as example on how Polish fighters, who were supposed to fight “for freedom our and yours” were exploited by evil westerners for their imperialist goals :D as most of Polish legionnaires sent there died from febra, without much sense.

    That Poles wre “white Negroes” (or “wild Iroquis”) was repeated many times; even jokingly in Poland during communism, when one of the Polish artists jokingly said that world should be interested in us and help us too, because “we are Negroes too”.

    Anyways, here you have an example of modern black Pole (mulatto, actually). He IS Pole; which does not mean that anyone can just become POle by getting Polish citizenship; and does not mean we should accept tens of thousands instead of few dozens.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Afrosapiens

    What do you mean?
     
    Nothing, just asking your thoughts about Poles becoming Haitians.

    Anyways, here you have an example of modern black Pole (mulatto, actually). He IS Pole;
     
    Would you call him a Pole if he was a leftist making a pro-immigration speech or complaining about the word murzyn?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @szopen

    First of all, Japan has a blood-soaked history, ... Every country you identified as exemplars of homogeneity-induced peaceful co-existence, including Poland and Sweden, had intense periods of internecine warfare.
     
    Sure, but you suggested basically that recent peace is a result of new diversity in (western) European countries. Yet, there are countries which participated in this long peace which are not diverse, or which were peaceful before they became diverse. Hence the fact that "western Europe became more diverse" and "Europe is at peace" can NOT be argument that it is a diversity which causes this long peace. Q.E.D.

    Is it US occupation or the rise of democracies that has kept the peace? Make up your mind.
     
    Hard to say. I would say both contributed, and diversity has NOT contributed.

    This makes no sense.
     
    Exactly. We had long period of peace before, without that much immigrants from Africa. Hence claim that it were those imigrants who enabled peace makes no sense.

    homogeneity is meaningless in the context of ever-shifting European borders. Your region in particular has been sliced and diced so much that to describe any country there as genetically or culturally distinct is absurd.

     

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/06/strong-differentiation-between-germans.html

    But sure, from my father's mother side I had some German in a family (a grandmother of my father's mother). Yet, the majority of my ancestors were Polish, speaking Polish. However, saying that because we are similar that means we are the same and not distinct is wrong.


    Poland is a European country. European culture is dominant. Therefore Polish culture is dominant.
     
    No. Because there are things specific to Polish culture which differentiate us from other European countries. For starters, I do not care if English is dominant in the world, because it is not my language. I care about Polish language, Polish movies, Polish books, Polish myths and legends.

    It's like saying Gabonese are black. Blacks dominate sports. Therefore, Gabonese dominate sports.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_division

    Colonization attempts by Poland
     
    Sure, bunch of wackos without much official support (though they were able to influence some ministries). But still, we had no colonies, period. Or, hey! I know a perfect argument. It goes like this:

    European countries had colonies in 19th century. Poland is European country (it doesn't matter we were arguably close to colony ourselves) . Therefore, Poland had colonies :D.


    Maybe you should read Putnam’s legal brief in support of the University of Texas, Austin in UT v. Fisher.
     
    I browsed it and it seems that basically he repeats his arguments from "E pluribus unum" essay.

    "Research has shown that broad diversity can produce improved problem solving." WRONG. It was discussed by dr Thompson at Unz.com. Diversity of ideologies is better than ethnic/racial diversity.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/hbr-cognitive-diversity-not-identity-diversity-matters-in-problem-solving/

    "A realistic discussion of these issues would be far less valuable without students from a wide array of backgrounds", so we have to increase diversity so Putnam can have better discussions on diversity. An absurd argument.

    Moreover, in Putnam essay, he laid down the facts that diversity decreases social capital, and THEN committed several pages to discussing his opinion: in short, that those facts are wrong. As you are probably aware, he was actually delaying publication of his data for many years, because he didn't like the results. I see no point with putting the same weight to his opinions from the essay, as to the datahe gathered.

    increased diversity tends to enhance creativity, as reflected in the large percentages of
    immigrants who have won Nobel Prizes
    this argument is laughable, as not all immigrants are the same. A lot of them were in fact Ashkenazi Jewish. When I read this argument in Putnam essay (as in your link he basically repeats all arguments from his essay) I laughed aloud. People are not the same, and throwing all kinds of people irregardless of their ethnicity/ancestry into one bucket labelled "immigrants" is just either extremely naive, or dishonest. Since Putnam, despite making clear that he is biased, decided to publish data which contradicted his worldview, in his case I would go with naïveté.

    Not to mention his absurd argument about "inevitability" of increasing diversity, which I keep hearing for years, with people repeating it seemingly not realising how absurd this argument sounds.

    Some men were always raping women, so it is inevitable and we should not do anything about that.

    It is inevitable that murders happen, people were always murdering, so let's get rid of police.

    Climate changes will likely cause water shortages, it's inevitable, hence let's not do anything about that.

    I will read your answer, but I do not promise I will reply. This discussion eats too much of my time and I already promised myself in comment 619 and then 847 that I will stop; no offense intended.

    Dessalines called Polish people “the White Negroes of Europe”, which was then regarded a great honour, as it meant brotherhood between Poles and Haitians. Many years later, Papa Doc reminded about this concept when referring to Polish people.[6][7] For their loyalty and support for overthrowing the French, the Poles acquired Haitian citizenship after Haiti gained its Independence, and settled there to never return to Poland. To this day, many Polish Haitians still live in Haiti and are of mixed racial origin, as some have blonde hair, light eyes, and other European features. Most settled in Cazale, La Vallée-de-Jacmel, Fond-des-Blancs, La Baleine, Port-Salut and Saint-Jean-du-Sud.[2][8]

    What do you think about that?

    Read More
    • Replies: @szopen
    What do you mean? The Haitian episode is well-known in POland; less known is the fact about "murzynek" Jabłonowski (IIRC), the only black (actually, mulatto) Polish general.

    Though usually when we heard about Haitian episode it is treated as example on how Polish fighters, who were supposed to fight "for freedom our and yours" were exploited by evil westerners for their imperialist goals :D as most of Polish legionnaires sent there died from febra, without much sense.

    That Poles wre "white Negroes" (or "wild Iroquis") was repeated many times; even jokingly in Poland during communism, when one of the Polish artists jokingly said that world should be interested in us and help us too, because "we are Negroes too".

    Anyways, here you have an example of modern black Pole (mulatto, actually). He IS Pole; which does not mean that anyone can just become POle by getting Polish citizenship; and does not mean we should accept tens of thousands instead of few dozens.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0mqC_CKEoI
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Okechukwu

    They see the national soccer team, they see French players playing for our country, not an army of foreign mercenaries and it’s a multicolor crowd that supports them in the stadium.
     
    I'm not a soccer fan, but I do know a little about your national basketball team:

    http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/french-national-basketball-team-poses-before-a-friendly-game-between-picture-id119892044

    I recognize at least 4 of these guys from the NBA. One of them, Tony Parker, is considered one of the greatest point guards to ever play.

    Indeed, Parker is a great player. And he’s always referred to as a great French player in France. Not a black player, because he’s not black by French standards, not Métis-French or African-American-Dutch-French because the French don’t use hyphenated ethnonyms. Just French, contrary to what utu would believe.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • “Research has shown that broad diversity can produce improved problem solving.”

    Yes, the problems of its own creation.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Okechukwu

    Which is why homogenous Japan is constantly attacking every neighbour while diverse USA had not invaded a single country.
     
    First of all, Japan has a blood-soaked history, which goes further to prove that homogeneity is not the panacea you seem to think it is. Secondly, Japan has in the recent past attacked every neighbor. Aren't you all about genetic determinism? A period of relative calm enforced by the United States doesn't mean that Japanese predispositions have disappeared.

    Also, it was intra-european diversity, not US armies stationing in Europe and atomic bombs and “Red Menace” which forced the peace.
     
    Both actually. And with that you confirm what I've asserted all along -- that European violence and mayhem preceded the introduction of brown and black people there. So it's disingenuous to point to said brown and black people as the sources of conflict.

    Also, another proof is how civil wars has destroyed Poland, Hungary, Czechia and SLovakia, while diverse Yugoslavia stands to this day. From history we know how homogenous Sweden went from war to war in 19th century, while multicultural and diverse Russia was epitome of peace.
     
    It depends on how you define diversity. You're doing a good job of defining diversity appropriately, but HBD orthodoxy doesn't really recognize within race or intra-European diversity. Also, you seem rather deceptive in identifying which epochs in which countries were "peaceful." Every country you identified as exemplars of homogeneity-induced peaceful co-existence, including Poland and Sweden, had intense periods of internecine warfare. You simply can't freeze time in the present and declare your assertions validated by that snapshot. Furthermore, homogeneity is meaningless in the context of ever-shifting European borders. Your region in particular has been sliced and diced so much that to describe any country there as genetically or culturally distinct is absurd. For example, the maternal side of my German fiancee's family is actually technically Polish.

    Of course, rise of democracy has nothing to do with lack of wars between the democracies.
     
    Is it US occupation or the rise of democracies that has kept the peace? Make up your mind.

    Everyone also knows that Putnam has proven that the more diverse the neighbourhood, the more eager are the locals to cooperate and the higher the social capital.
     
    Maybe you should read Putnam's legal brief in support of the University of Texas, Austin in UT v. Fisher.

    http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/11-345-respondent-amicus-Putman.pdf

    Here, Putnam clearly describes the benefits of of diversity, making many of the same arguments I've made. He states further that diversity is something to aspire to in light of the myriad benefits. His work has been taken out of context by the likes of you.

    Also, 46 years of long peace (1945-1991, to Yugoslavia wars) is way longer than 40 years of peace in 19th century.
     
    This makes no sense.

    ANd, BTW, Polish culture is not absolutely dominant
     
    Poland is a European country. European culture is dominant. Therefore Polish culture is dominant.

    Moreover, we have never had any colonies
     
    Not for lack of trying.

    Colonization attempts by Poland

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_attempts_by_Poland

    First of all, Japan has a blood-soaked history, … Every country you identified as exemplars of homogeneity-induced peaceful co-existence, including Poland and Sweden, had intense periods of internecine warfare.

    Sure, but you suggested basically that recent peace is a result of new diversity in (western) European countries. Yet, there are countries which participated in this long peace which are not diverse, or which were peaceful before they became diverse. Hence the fact that “western Europe became more diverse” and “Europe is at peace” can NOT be argument that it is a diversity which causes this long peace. Q.E.D.

    Is it US occupation or the rise of democracies that has kept the peace? Make up your mind.

    Hard to say. I would say both contributed, and diversity has NOT contributed.

    This makes no sense.

    Exactly. We had long period of peace before, without that much immigrants from Africa. Hence claim that it were those imigrants who enabled peace makes no sense.

    homogeneity is meaningless in the context of ever-shifting European borders. Your region in particular has been sliced and diced so much that to describe any country there as genetically or culturally distinct is absurd.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/06/strong-differentiation-between-germans.html

    But sure, from my father’s mother side I had some German in a family (a grandmother of my father’s mother). Yet, the majority of my ancestors were Polish, speaking Polish. However, saying that because we are similar that means we are the same and not distinct is wrong.

    Poland is a European country. European culture is dominant. Therefore Polish culture is dominant.

    No. Because there are things specific to Polish culture which differentiate us from other European countries. For starters, I do not care if English is dominant in the world, because it is not my language. I care about Polish language, Polish movies, Polish books, Polish myths and legends.

    It’s like saying Gabonese are black. Blacks dominate sports. Therefore, Gabonese dominate sports.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_division

    Colonization attempts by Poland

    Sure, bunch of wackos without much official support (though they were able to influence some ministries). But still, we had no colonies, period. Or, hey! I know a perfect argument. It goes like this:

    European countries had colonies in 19th century. Poland is European country (it doesn’t matter we were arguably close to colony ourselves) . Therefore, Poland had colonies :D.

    Maybe you should read Putnam’s legal brief in support of the University of Texas, Austin in UT v. Fisher.

    I browsed it and it seems that basically he repeats his arguments from “E pluribus unum” essay.

    “Research has shown that broad diversity can produce improved problem solving.” WRONG. It was discussed by dr Thompson at Unz.com. Diversity of ideologies is better than ethnic/racial diversity.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/hbr-cognitive-diversity-not-identity-diversity-matters-in-problem-solving/

    “A realistic discussion of these issues would be far less valuable without students from a wide array of backgrounds”, so we have to increase diversity so Putnam can have better discussions on diversity. An absurd argument.

    Moreover, in Putnam essay, he laid down the facts that diversity decreases social capital, and THEN committed several pages to discussing his opinion: in short, that those facts are wrong. As you are probably aware, he was actually delaying publication of his data for many years, because he didn’t like the results. I see no point with putting the same weight to his opinions from the essay, as to the datahe gathered.

    increased diversity tends to enhance creativity, as reflected in the large percentages of
    immigrants who have won Nobel Prizes
    this argument is laughable, as not all immigrants are the same. A lot of them were in fact Ashkenazi Jewish. When I read this argument in Putnam essay (as in your link he basically repeats all arguments from his essay) I laughed aloud. People are not the same, and throwing all kinds of people irregardless of their ethnicity/ancestry into one bucket labelled “immigrants” is just either extremely naive, or dishonest. Since Putnam, despite making clear that he is biased, decided to publish data which contradicted his worldview, in his case I would go with naïveté.

    Not to mention his absurd argument about “inevitability” of increasing diversity, which I keep hearing for years, with people repeating it seemingly not realising how absurd this argument sounds.

    Some men were always raping women, so it is inevitable and we should not do anything about that.

    It is inevitable that murders happen, people were always murdering, so let’s get rid of police.

    Climate changes will likely cause water shortages, it’s inevitable, hence let’s not do anything about that.

    I will read your answer, but I do not promise I will reply. This discussion eats too much of my time and I already promised myself in comment 619 and then 847 that I will stop; no offense intended.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    Dessalines called Polish people "the White Negroes of Europe", which was then regarded a great honour, as it meant brotherhood between Poles and Haitians. Many years later, Papa Doc reminded about this concept when referring to Polish people.[6][7] For their loyalty and support for overthrowing the French, the Poles acquired Haitian citizenship after Haiti gained its Independence, and settled there to never return to Poland. To this day, many Polish Haitians still live in Haiti and are of mixed racial origin, as some have blonde hair, light eyes, and other European features. Most settled in Cazale, La Vallée-de-Jacmel, Fond-des-Blancs, La Baleine, Port-Salut and Saint-Jean-du-Sud.[2][8]

    What do you think about that?
    , @Okechukwu

    Sure, but you suggested basically that recent peace is a result of new diversity in (western) European countries. Yet, there are countries which participated in this long peace which are not diverse, or which were peaceful before they became diverse. Hence the fact that “western Europe became more diverse” and “Europe is at peace” can NOT be argument that it is a diversity which causes this long peace. Q.E.D.
     
    I never claimed that greater diversity is responsible for peace in Europe. I said Europe was much less peaceful in the past (before increased diversity) and that increasing diversity has coincided with the longest period of peace in European history. No state of existence is more conflictive than war. And Europe was largely a war zone interrupted by intermittent periods of relative peace.

    Hard to say. I would say both contributed, and diversity has NOT contributed.
     
    Oh, yes it has. As your own source Putnam says:

    The third finding of E Pluribus Unum shows that in the medium to long term, diversity leads to many positive results. Id. at 138-39. Because notions of“diversity” are based on “socially constructed
    identities,” the adaptation to diversity over time requires Americans (or Europeans) to develop a more encompassing sense of “we.”


    And

    Broad diversity, including racial and ethnic diversity, in higher education (or in nation states) creates other powerful benefits, such as fostering collective creativity in workgroups, and “produc[ing] much better, faster problem-solving.”

    Putnam also talks about the importance of intellectual diversity. The antipathy and misapprehension which lead to conflict often are germinated in cocoonized environments bereft of any inputs that challenge conventional wisdom or accepted norms. You see the same phenomenon in Internet echo chambers. Many of the white supremacists in Charlottesville actually believed that their ideas were normative. They had been so thoroughly indoctrinated and radicalized in one immutable and abhorrent belief system.

    It’s like saying Gabonese are black. Blacks dominate sports. Therefore, Gabonese dominate sports.
     
    Inappropriate analogy. European culture is very uniform. African culture is diffuse. A single African country like can exhibit more cultural divergence than all of Europe combined.

    Sure, bunch of wackos without much official support (though they were able to influence some ministries).
     
    That describes virtually every colonial project of the last 1000 years -- from the Pilgrims to Ponce de Leon to Cortes to Pizarro to Cecil Rhodes and even to Sam Houston in Texas. Governments only put their seal of approval on a successful colonial adventure.

    “A realistic discussion of these issues would be far less valuable without students from a wide array of backgrounds”, so we have to increase diversity so Putnam can have better discussions on diversity. An absurd argument.
     
    Dr. Thompson is a racially-motivated clown. I don't take seriously anyone who espouses HBD or race-realism because they're not interested in science, facts or even reality. They're ideologues.

    It’s hilarious to see you frantically trying to impeach Putnam, who is your own expert witness, after discovering that he actually supports my thesis and not yours. This is not atypical among people who advocate for this sort of racialized pseudoscience. Often they unwittingly debunk themselves with their own sources.

    Not to mention his absurd argument about “inevitability” of increasing diversity, which I keep hearing for years, with people repeating it seemingly not realising how absurd this argument sounds.
     
    Duh...of course increased diversity is inevitable. Look around you. The world is shrinking, enabled by technology, travel, immigration and cultural exchange. Putnam's reasoning is sound. Here in America parents who do not expose their children to diversity are potentially consigning them to a miserable existence as adults. Parents can actually ruin their children's lives if they inculcate them with racist attitudes. Because if they take those attitudes into the wider (diverse) world of today, it could destroy their careers and reputations. We've seen many examples of this with people being fired, expelled from school or becoming socially ostracized for simply repeating racist slurs that were part of the common lexicon in their cloistered home environments and social circles.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @szopen

    Increased intra-European diversity has coincided with the longest period of peace in that continent’s history.
     
    Which is why homogenous Japan is constantly attacking every neighbour while diverse USA had not invaded a single country. Also, it was intra-european diversity, not US armies stationing in Europe and atomic bombs and "Red Menace" which forced the peace. Also, another proof is how civil wars has destroyed Poland, Hungary, Czechia and SLovakia, while diverse Yugoslavia stands to this day. From history we know how homogenous Sweden went from war to war in 19th century, while multicultural and diverse Russia was epitome of peace.

    Of course, rise of democracy has nothing to do with lack of wars between the democracies. Everyone also knows that Putnam has proven that the more diverse the neighbourhood, the more eager are the locals to cooperate and the higher the social capital.

    Also, 46 years of long peace (1945-1991, to Yugoslavia wars) is way longer than 40 years of peace in 19th century.

    Maan.

    ANd, BTW, Polish culture is not absolutely dominant :) Moreover, we have never had any colonies, and we were instead subjugated by our neighbours. In addition there was period in history where we were being attacked by (white) Ottomans, and Tatars were decades after decades invading our lands, taking slaves and then selling them in markets of Istanbul.

    Argh, I was supposed to stop reading this thread :)

    PS:

    both you and I lack the wherewithal to disrupt inevitable and inexorable migratory patterns. Humans have always moved around
     
    DOn't move, close you eyes and think of humanity!

    Which is why homogenous Japan is constantly attacking every neighbour while diverse USA had not invaded a single country.

    First of all, Japan has a blood-soaked history, which goes further to prove that homogeneity is not the panacea you seem to think it is. Secondly, Japan has in the recent past attacked every neighbor. Aren’t you all about genetic determinism? A period of relative calm enforced by the United States doesn’t mean that Japanese predispositions have disappeared.

    Also, it was intra-european diversity, not US armies stationing in Europe and atomic bombs and “Red Menace” which forced the peace.

    Both actually. And with that you confirm what I’ve asserted all along — that European violence and mayhem preceded the introduction of brown and black people there. So it’s disingenuous to point to said brown and black people as the sources of conflict.

    Also, another proof is how civil wars has destroyed Poland, Hungary, Czechia and SLovakia, while diverse Yugoslavia stands to this day. From history we know how homogenous Sweden went from war to war in 19th century, while multicultural and diverse Russia was epitome of peace.

    It depends on how you define diversity. You’re doing a good job of defining diversity appropriately, but HBD orthodoxy doesn’t really recognize within race or intra-European diversity. Also, you seem rather deceptive in identifying which epochs in which countries were “peaceful.” Every country you identified as exemplars of homogeneity-induced peaceful co-existence, including Poland and Sweden, had intense periods of internecine warfare. You simply can’t freeze time in the present and declare your assertions validated by that snapshot. Furthermore, homogeneity is meaningless in the context of ever-shifting European borders. Your region in particular has been sliced and diced so much that to describe any country there as genetically or culturally distinct is absurd. For example, the maternal side of my German fiancee’s family is actually technically Polish.

    Of course, rise of democracy has nothing to do with lack of wars between the democracies.

    Is it US occupation or the rise of democracies that has kept the peace? Make up your mind.

    Everyone also knows that Putnam has proven that the more diverse the neighbourhood, the more eager are the locals to cooperate and the higher the social capital.

    Maybe you should read Putnam’s legal brief in support of the University of Texas, Austin in UT v. Fisher.

    http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/11-345-respondent-amicus-Putman.pdf

    Here, Putnam clearly describes the benefits of of diversity, making many of the same arguments I’ve made. He states further that diversity is something to aspire to in light of the myriad benefits. His work has been taken out of context by the likes of you.

    Also, 46 years of long peace (1945-1991, to Yugoslavia wars) is way longer than 40 years of peace in 19th century.

    This makes no sense.

    ANd, BTW, Polish culture is not absolutely dominant

    Poland is a European country. European culture is dominant. Therefore Polish culture is dominant.

    Moreover, we have never had any colonies

    Not for lack of trying.

    Colonization attempts by Poland

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_attempts_by_Poland

    Read More
    • Replies: @szopen

    First of all, Japan has a blood-soaked history, ... Every country you identified as exemplars of homogeneity-induced peaceful co-existence, including Poland and Sweden, had intense periods of internecine warfare.
     
    Sure, but you suggested basically that recent peace is a result of new diversity in (western) European countries. Yet, there are countries which participated in this long peace which are not diverse, or which were peaceful before they became diverse. Hence the fact that "western Europe became more diverse" and "Europe is at peace" can NOT be argument that it is a diversity which causes this long peace. Q.E.D.

    Is it US occupation or the rise of democracies that has kept the peace? Make up your mind.
     
    Hard to say. I would say both contributed, and diversity has NOT contributed.

    This makes no sense.
     
    Exactly. We had long period of peace before, without that much immigrants from Africa. Hence claim that it were those imigrants who enabled peace makes no sense.

    homogeneity is meaningless in the context of ever-shifting European borders. Your region in particular has been sliced and diced so much that to describe any country there as genetically or culturally distinct is absurd.

     

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/06/strong-differentiation-between-germans.html

    But sure, from my father's mother side I had some German in a family (a grandmother of my father's mother). Yet, the majority of my ancestors were Polish, speaking Polish. However, saying that because we are similar that means we are the same and not distinct is wrong.


    Poland is a European country. European culture is dominant. Therefore Polish culture is dominant.
     
    No. Because there are things specific to Polish culture which differentiate us from other European countries. For starters, I do not care if English is dominant in the world, because it is not my language. I care about Polish language, Polish movies, Polish books, Polish myths and legends.

    It's like saying Gabonese are black. Blacks dominate sports. Therefore, Gabonese dominate sports.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_division

    Colonization attempts by Poland
     
    Sure, bunch of wackos without much official support (though they were able to influence some ministries). But still, we had no colonies, period. Or, hey! I know a perfect argument. It goes like this:

    European countries had colonies in 19th century. Poland is European country (it doesn't matter we were arguably close to colony ourselves) . Therefore, Poland had colonies :D.


    Maybe you should read Putnam’s legal brief in support of the University of Texas, Austin in UT v. Fisher.
     
    I browsed it and it seems that basically he repeats his arguments from "E pluribus unum" essay.

    "Research has shown that broad diversity can produce improved problem solving." WRONG. It was discussed by dr Thompson at Unz.com. Diversity of ideologies is better than ethnic/racial diversity.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/hbr-cognitive-diversity-not-identity-diversity-matters-in-problem-solving/

    "A realistic discussion of these issues would be far less valuable without students from a wide array of backgrounds", so we have to increase diversity so Putnam can have better discussions on diversity. An absurd argument.

    Moreover, in Putnam essay, he laid down the facts that diversity decreases social capital, and THEN committed several pages to discussing his opinion: in short, that those facts are wrong. As you are probably aware, he was actually delaying publication of his data for many years, because he didn't like the results. I see no point with putting the same weight to his opinions from the essay, as to the datahe gathered.

    increased diversity tends to enhance creativity, as reflected in the large percentages of
    immigrants who have won Nobel Prizes
    this argument is laughable, as not all immigrants are the same. A lot of them were in fact Ashkenazi Jewish. When I read this argument in Putnam essay (as in your link he basically repeats all arguments from his essay) I laughed aloud. People are not the same, and throwing all kinds of people irregardless of their ethnicity/ancestry into one bucket labelled "immigrants" is just either extremely naive, or dishonest. Since Putnam, despite making clear that he is biased, decided to publish data which contradicted his worldview, in his case I would go with naïveté.

    Not to mention his absurd argument about "inevitability" of increasing diversity, which I keep hearing for years, with people repeating it seemingly not realising how absurd this argument sounds.

    Some men were always raping women, so it is inevitable and we should not do anything about that.

    It is inevitable that murders happen, people were always murdering, so let's get rid of police.

    Climate changes will likely cause water shortages, it's inevitable, hence let's not do anything about that.

    I will read your answer, but I do not promise I will reply. This discussion eats too much of my time and I already promised myself in comment 619 and then 847 that I will stop; no offense intended.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Afrosapiens

    You see, those who do not know you have doubts because of your phenotype. And you know they have doubts, so some resentment will be germinating in you and you will start developing new ethnic identity despite of all the efforts your parents put into the project of raising you as French. This proves my point. You may search company of similar to you people commiserate. You see this is one of the mechanisms that I am talking about that will start tearing the society apart. This is not a fault of yours.
     
    LOL! No. Just no.

    I don't feel part of a black community, I have a loving family and friends who are mostly whites and Jewish thanks to my fiancéee. I have some black friends, but they're not my best friends, I don't feel closer to them than to the whites that I've known for much longer. I have everything I need in my life, associating with blacks is not one thing I need in my life. And actually which blacks? Africans and their hundreds of ethnicities? No I don't live in those cultures. Haitians and other Caribbeans? Not more, I don't live in those cultures either. I'm just French, Norman, Catholic and blue-blooded. And I'm only mentioning this because we're talking about it. These labels have no importance in my life, I'm a lot more than just ethnic/national/religious/social labels.

    Regarding what strangers think I am, I just never cared one second. And most people never care either, a black man walking down the streets is a common daily sight in France and no one never gives it a single thought, I never get hostile looks or insults. People I meet rarely ask me where I'm from, and in any case the blacks do it much more than the whites, they want to know if I'm from their country. I speak without an accent so when I just go buy a baguette at the boulangerie, I'm just like anyone else except I'm handsome, and black and people have gotten used to that. They see the national soccer team, they see French players playing for our country, not an army of foreign mercenaries and it's a multicolor crowd that supports them in the stadium.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/football/2016/06/04/france_win-xlarge_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpg

    So you are not French as most people even in France understand it. One has to get to know you get convinced that you are French. But you are not French anymore once you became aware. You are hyphenated French or French with qualification and you know it.
     
    No, because there are no hyphenated identities in France. People don't refer to themselves as Italian-French as do Italian-Americans. If they feel Italian, they call themselves Italian, if they're from an African country but they feel French, they call themselves French. It's simple.

    But now you would be just a cartoon caricature.
     
    That's just your opinion because you don't believe in assimilation, a lot of people believe in it or are simply able to accept that someone is different and the same altogether.

    Actually I begin to wonder how much your position you present here is a function of you justifying motives and the action of your adoptive parents. It may feel strange to be a subject of an experiment who was run by liberal Jewish couple for unknown motives, perhaps to prove to their liberal friends that they are even more liberal than them so they got themselves a Shvartza mamser.
     
    LMAO! Don't try to guess, my parents are not even Jewish. My parents' motivation for having me and my sisters is they wanted kids and thought there were already many kids in need of love, so it was pointless to have kids of their own. And my mother was not so thrilled by the idea of pregnancy.

    It is hard to top it. They won the contest. You want to believe that their rationalization was right. You will suppress any thoughts of doubts and redouble the proselytizing the gospel of multi-ethnicity but the thoughts of doubt will germinate.

    BF Skinner was such a great believer in his own extreme versions of nurture-over-nature BS that he run an experiment on his own daughters. One of them later sued him and committed suicide.
     
    Thank you for your attempt at armchair cyber-psychology but you just made me laugh this time.

    They see the national soccer team, they see French players playing for our country, not an army of foreign mercenaries and it’s a multicolor crowd that supports them in the stadium.

    I’m not a soccer fan, but I do know a little about your national basketball team:

    http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/french-national-basketball-team-poses-before-a-friendly-game-between-picture-id119892044

    I recognize at least 4 of these guys from the NBA. One of them, Tony Parker, is considered one of the greatest point guards to ever play.

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    Indeed, Parker is a great player. And he's always referred to as a great French player in France. Not a black player, because he's not black by French standards, not Métis-French or African-American-Dutch-French because the French don't use hyphenated ethnonyms. Just French, contrary to what utu would believe.
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  • @Chanda Chisala
    Well, if you're done you're done. We can give you arguments but can't force you to think, nor are we interested in that.

    For those who may be reading this and are interested in logical debates beyond insisting that something "clearly" shows something, here are some thoughts for your consideration.

    Just because a group appears to be selected on some random level of education DOES NOT MEAN it is selected on INTELLIGENCE unless you KNOW the correlation between level of education and intelligence FOR THAT SOCIETY.

    How do you know that the average person in Africa CAN NOT achieve some sort of tertiary (post high school) education if given the opportunity? (Remember we are talking about the quality of education in Africa.) You would need to tell us that the average person does not have the intelligence to do it and has not been hindered by either the extreme lack of schools, the poverty of the parents, the religion of his community, etc etc. -- a point that Mr. Res above thinks is irrelevant for as long as he sees that the numbers in the U.K. show a high percentage of those who DID have these opportunities, not necessarily because they were more intelligent than those who do not have them.

    Just about every educated person in Africa has cousins (I expect) who do not have a primary or high school education *because* of where they grew up. When you meet these cousins, you know they won't know anything about geography or math or science. But learn some complex board game together and they will probably outplay you!

    Thomas Sowell himself has this experience with his siblings/cousins that he had never met and who had no education by the time he met them because of where they grew up. He tells the story of how he would play checkers with these uneducated illiterate cousins, and he was surprised when they beat him -- and they weee equally shocked each time he beat them.

    If you could have that situation of a mismatch between education levels and intelligemce (particularly with blacks) especially at some point in the not too distant past in America itself, why would anyone fail to grasp the likelihood that Africa is still very much living with that incongruity?

    Well, if you’re done you’re done. We can give you arguments but can’t force you to think, nor are we interested in that.

    You might also turn that second sentence around. (only I would use “I”, not sure why you said “we”)

    Just because a group appears to be selected on some random level of education DOES NOT MEAN it is selected on INTELLIGENCE unless you KNOW the correlation between level of education and intelligence FOR THAT SOCIETY.

    This statement is important. It seems to be the core of your argument (and I enjoyed all the caps). There is indeed a possibility this is true. There is also a possibility the sun will not rise tomorrow morning. What you are saying in effect is that it is likely that the average low and medium skill Nigerian has equivalent IQ to the average high skill Nigerian emigrant. This is irrefutable without data–which Nigeria seems to be unable to collect. Within the US we see averages along the lines of 87 IQ for less than 10 years of schooling up to 124 IQ for doctorate level: https://brainsize.wordpress.com/2014/06/02/iq-years-of-education/

    Yet you seem to be asserting there is no similar relationship in Nigeria. OK. I guess we will just wait for data. I think everyone who has an open mind can make their own inferences. I am curious what your professional colleagues would make of your argument.

    Meanwhile, for anyone who believes selection by educational level indicates something important, here is another paper from 2006: International Migration by Educational Attainment (1990-2000)
    This research is based on the brain drain data. It really is the best data available for this topic.

    http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/APCITY/UNPAN022366.pdf

    From the text on page 24:

    In relative terms (in proportion of the educated labor force), small countries are the most affected. The emigration rate exceeds 80 percent in nations such as Guyana, Jamaica, Haiti, Grenada, and St. Vincent and the Grenadines. One could argue that the distance from the United States is a key element explaining the high emigration rates from these countries. Nevertheless, we believe that the reality is much more complex. Migration decisions of skilled workers are likely to be less dependent on distances. It also appears that some African countries exhibit high rates of skilled migration. The rate of skilled migration exceeds 50 percent in five African countries (67.5 percent in Cape Verde, 63.3 percent in The Gambia, 55.9 percent in the Seychelles, 56.2 percent in Mauritius, and 52.5 percent in Sierra Leone). Excluding small countries (population below 5 million), column 5 stresses the importance of the brain drain in Africa and Central America. On the western and eastern coasts of Africa, tremendous rates of emigration are found in nations such as Ghana, Mozambique, Sierra Leone, Kenya, Uganda, Angola, and Somalia. In Asia, the countries most affected by migration are the Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Sri Lanka, Hong Kong (China), Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Cambodia. Regarding Europe, emigration rates are particularly strong in Portugal, the Slovak Republic, and the United Kingdom. The last column in table 5.3 reveals that countries from the former Soviet Union and the Gulf States exhibit small rates of migration. This is also the case of OECD countries, such as Japan, France, Sweden, Australia, and the United States. Finally, it is worth noting that developing countries with large stocks of skilled emigrants may exhibit low rates of emigration. This is the case in India (4.3 percent), China (3.8 percent), Indonesia (2.1 percent), and
    Brazil (2.2 percent).

    Many economists have demonstrated that immigrants are not randomly selected. An interesting selection indicator is given by the proportion of skilled emigrants in the total emigration stock. Table 5.4 gives the 30 highest and lowest selection rates among emigrants. The highest selection rates are observed in Asian countries where the rate of brain drain is rather low. Interestingly, Qatar, Oman, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and Kuwait exhibit drastic selection rates despite a low brain drain. Other high-education countries are affected—Taiwan (China), Japan, Hong Kong (China), Canada, and Israel—as well as a few African countries—including Nigeria, Swaziland, South Africa, and Zambia. At the other extremity of the distribution, selection rates are low in traditional unskilled emigration countries such as Turkey, Mali, Portugal, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, and Mauritania. Several OECD countries also exhibit low selection rates (such as Portugal, Mexico, Italy, the Slovak Republic, and Spain). The selection is rather low in a few poor countries characterized by an important brain drain (for example, Senegal, The Gambia, Samoa, Suriname, and Mozambique).

    This is a long quote because there is a great deal of important context here. First, it is important to notice that highly selected emigration rate does not necessarily correspond with the most severe brain drain. The raw emigration rate is critically important.

    One point for calibration. The brain drain data gives an emigration rate for China in 2000 of 0.21% (contrast to 3.8% skilled rate above). This aligns with the roughly 10x selectivity (1.95%/0.17% = 11.5) we see for China using my method. Source population data is necessary to calculate their version. Drawing accurate conclusions depends on knowing the proportions of each group in the source population.

    To repeat: “The highest selection rates are observed in Asian countries where the rate of brain drain is rather low.”

    So as I observed earlier highly skill selective emigration does not necessarily imply a high brain drain. I have to update my earlier assumptions on that (see, I can learn from new information). unfortunately this paper does not give numbers for Nigeria’s brain drain and I don’t believe it is possible to calculate it from the publicly released brain drain data (the home population numbers are missing).

    Back to my primary point: “The highest selection rates…as well as a few African
    countries—including Nigeria, Swaziland, South Africa, and Zambia.”

    So as I contended Nigeria has selective emigration. Not only that, but Nigeria has the highest selection rate (65%) in Africa and the 6th highest in the world. See Table S4.

    Now that is confirmation!

    Table S.4 gives a list of top ranked countries by emigration stock, emigration rate, and emigration selectivity along with the exact numbers.

    Table 5.3 provides an insightful overview by region.

    I know this won’t convince Chanda and a number of commenters here (and I realize it does not address his argument above, which as I said is irrefutable without data). I am fine with that. But I request anyone with an interest in the topic of selective emigration and brain drain to take a look at this paper. It presents a useful interpretation of the data in a very informative way. I just wish they had made their results available for all countries.

    P.S. A slightly older version of that paper is available inline at: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228739789_International_Migration_by_Educational_Attainment_1990-2000-Release_11
    if anyone is interested in taking a quick look. It does not have the table and text above though–see the linked PDF for that.

    P.P.S. This was an interesting quote from the paper: “It is well documented that statistics provided by origin countries do not provide a realistic picture of emigration. When available, they are incomplete and imprecise.”

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    Res is exposing his intellectual shortsightedness again.

    How would a smart person use a ranking of countries by "selection rate" of emigrants?

    Would they just say "muh numbers are better muh Nigeria 6th most selected"? Or would they look at the whole ranking and look to see if there is a strong relationship between "selection rates" and the socio-economic outcomes of emigrants in OECD countries.

    For instance, I'm under the impression that Nigerian emigrants, in spite of a slightly lower "selection rate" than Filipinos have substantially better outcomes than Filipinos. How would you explain that if my impression is confirmed?

    Are you able to use your brain or are you just here to brag about the quality of the data that you find?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @szopen
    [the learning consisted of being shown a correct answer for two seconds.] Alright, there was also "wrong!" or "ok!" indication being shown for 1s, so it's three seconds overall, not two. Come on.

    [ IQ is better predictor than social class?] IQ better predictor than what? Citation?
     
    SES

    First, "Intelligence and socioeconomic success: A meta-analytic review of longitudinal research" Strenze 2006: Not surprisingly, all the correlations are positive but, judging by the confidence intervals, several of the correlations (e.g., the one between father's education and education, p=.50, or father's occupation and occupation, p=.35) are significantly smaller than the respective correlations for intelligence. On the other hand, none of the parental variables [including SES - szopen] is a significantly stronger predictor than intelligence. The SES index is themost successful predictor among the parental variables by not being a significantly weaker predictor than intelligence for any of the measures of success. And, in a footnote: With education as the measure of success, there were 15 samples that provided correlations with both IQ and SES index; in 11 of these samples, the correlations were significantly different (pb.05, 2-tailed); 8 of the significant differences were in favor of IQ. With occupation as the measure of success, 14 comparisons were made; 7 of the differences were significant, all in favor of IQ. With income as the measure of success, 12 comparisons were made; 5 were significant, 2 of them in favor of IQ. These results suggest that there seems to be an overall tendency for IQ to be a better predictor but this tendency is not consistently found in every occasion.

    Furthermore, we have this (the original paper is unavailable currently to me, so thats why I link to the blog):

    http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/03/ses-and-iq.html

    Cognitive Epidemiology: With emphasis on untangling cognitive ability and socioeconomic status, Intelligence 37 (2009) 625-633 [...] compares life outcomes of paired siblings (one of each pair required to be in the "normal" reference range of IQ), thereby controlling for SES. As you can see, IQ has a strong impact on education, earnings and social status even after family SES is controlled for.

    The quoted second link quoted in this blog is unfortunately no longer available.

    This thread becomes so long that it messes up with my browser; I am not sure whether I will participate for much longer (after all, I have already wanted to stop the discussion in comment 619, and then, having weak will and all, I couldn't resist a temptation to discuss more).
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  • @Okechukwu

    It never ceases to amaze me how inventive people can be in rationalizing their core beliefs and self-interests.
     
    I don't really have any core beliefs on the matter. I'd actually like to see quaint little English villages preserved. But the rampaging cultural behemoth called America is the real threat, not some Africans. That said, both you and I lack the wherewithal to disrupt inevitable and inexorable migratory patterns. Humans have always moved around. Countries and cultures and empires have always been transformed. Some have even vanished. You don't see the Ancient Egyptians or Ancient Romans running around do you?

    In your case you also suffer from Messiah complex. You think that Black people will bring the salvation to the world.
     
    Would you care to point out where I even intimated this? What I said is that diversity generally confers positive outcomes, provides more enriching experiences and promotes peace. The Belgians of today aren't going to go to the Congo to chop off limbs. That's due in large part to the fact that many of them have Congolese friends, neighbors and spouses. Therein lies the power of diversity. But I don't mean just interracial diversity. Increased intra-European diversity has coincided with the longest period of peace in that continent's history.

    But it is possible that all you want is to see European culture go down and see white Europeans suffer. There is a hint of genocidal ideations in you, you know.
     
    Umm...Nope. You do understand that European culture is absolutely dominant, right? The disquiet you feel is because that dominance is starting to slip just a tiny bit. You're a phony, basically. You're not actually interested in preserving distinct cultures, languages and traditions. Because if you were you would indict your own European culture that has devastated and subsumed everything in its path. The whole world speaks English, right? Whose language is that?

    There are many organizations like this one:

    http://www.vcproject.org/about/what_we_do/

    Unlike you and your fellow travelers they are genuine preservationists and conservationists. They work to forestall the extinction of genuinely threatened cultures. You, on the other hand, live in an alternative reality in which a colossal hyper-culture that is swallowing up indigenous cultures all around the world is the one that is under threat.

    Increased intra-European diversity has coincided with the longest period of peace in that continent’s history.

    Which is why homogenous Japan is constantly attacking every neighbour while diverse USA had not invaded a single country. Also, it was intra-european diversity, not US armies stationing in Europe and atomic bombs and “Red Menace” which forced the peace. Also, another proof is how civil wars has destroyed Poland, Hungary, Czechia and SLovakia, while diverse Yugoslavia stands to this day. From history we know how homogenous Sweden went from war to war in 19th century, while multicultural and diverse Russia was epitome of peace.

    Of course, rise of democracy has nothing to do with lack of wars between the democracies. Everyone also knows that Putnam has proven that the more diverse the neighbourhood, the more eager are the locals to cooperate and the higher the social capital.

    Also, 46 years of long peace (1945-1991, to Yugoslavia wars) is way longer than 40 years of peace in 19th century.

    Maan.

    ANd, BTW, Polish culture is not absolutely dominant :) Moreover, we have never had any colonies, and we were instead subjugated by our neighbours. In addition there was period in history where we were being attacked by (white) Ottomans, and Tatars were decades after decades invading our lands, taking slaves and then selling them in markets of Istanbul.

    Argh, I was supposed to stop reading this thread :)

    PS:

    both you and I lack the wherewithal to disrupt inevitable and inexorable migratory patterns. Humans have always moved around

    DOn’t move, close you eyes and think of humanity!

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    • Replies: @Okechukwu

    Which is why homogenous Japan is constantly attacking every neighbour while diverse USA had not invaded a single country.
     
    First of all, Japan has a blood-soaked history, which goes further to prove that homogeneity is not the panacea you seem to think it is. Secondly, Japan has in the recent past attacked every neighbor. Aren't you all about genetic determinism? A period of relative calm enforced by the United States doesn't mean that Japanese predispositions have disappeared.

    Also, it was intra-european diversity, not US armies stationing in Europe and atomic bombs and “Red Menace” which forced the peace.
     
    Both actually. And with that you confirm what I've asserted all along -- that European violence and mayhem preceded the introduction of brown and black people there. So it's disingenuous to point to said brown and black people as the sources of conflict.

    Also, another proof is how civil wars has destroyed Poland, Hungary, Czechia and SLovakia, while diverse Yugoslavia stands to this day. From history we know how homogenous Sweden went from war to war in 19th century, while multicultural and diverse Russia was epitome of peace.
     
    It depends on how you define diversity. You're doing a good job of defining diversity appropriately, but HBD orthodoxy doesn't really recognize within race or intra-European diversity. Also, you seem rather deceptive in identifying which epochs in which countries were "peaceful." Every country you identified as exemplars of homogeneity-induced peaceful co-existence, including Poland and Sweden, had intense periods of internecine warfare. You simply can't freeze time in the present and declare your assertions validated by that snapshot. Furthermore, homogeneity is meaningless in the context of ever-shifting European borders. Your region in particular has been sliced and diced so much that to describe any country there as genetically or culturally distinct is absurd. For example, the maternal side of my German fiancee's family is actually technically Polish.

    Of course, rise of democracy has nothing to do with lack of wars between the democracies.
     
    Is it US occupation or the rise of democracies that has kept the peace? Make up your mind.

    Everyone also knows that Putnam has proven that the more diverse the neighbourhood, the more eager are the locals to cooperate and the higher the social capital.
     
    Maybe you should read Putnam's legal brief in support of the University of Texas, Austin in UT v. Fisher.

    http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/11-345-respondent-amicus-Putman.pdf

    Here, Putnam clearly describes the benefits of of diversity, making many of the same arguments I've made. He states further that diversity is something to aspire to in light of the myriad benefits. His work has been taken out of context by the likes of you.

    Also, 46 years of long peace (1945-1991, to Yugoslavia wars) is way longer than 40 years of peace in 19th century.
     
    This makes no sense.

    ANd, BTW, Polish culture is not absolutely dominant
     
    Poland is a European country. European culture is dominant. Therefore Polish culture is dominant.

    Moreover, we have never had any colonies
     
    Not for lack of trying.

    Colonization attempts by Poland

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_attempts_by_Poland
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @res
    Let's take just one of those.



    There is probably more evidence for a negative selection than a positive one (generally), as the Bell Curve itself implied.
     
    Do you still believe that? It does not line up with the brain drain data at all
     
    Same answer. Without telling us the level of selection and how you’ve calculated or even just estimated it, you cannot say what proposed selection level contradicts it.
     
    The brain drain data clearly indicates positive selection is present. There is no need to do any further calculation to distinguish positive from negative. The 20x and 100x differential emigration rates for high vs. medium and low skill groups (which I gave above) are all the proof needed to show positive selection.

    QED.

    P.S. I am done unless you bring better arguments. This one is so obvious I am baffled we are even still talking about it. There is positive selection. Sorry.

    P.P.S. I went through various quotations of the data and calculations above. To save you some work (I know it is hard to search) I will reproduce the data and the more conservative calculation here. These differential emigration rates from Nigeria for men (total/low/medium/high skill) for 2010 clearly show there is a higher rate (at least 20x more!) of emigration for the high skill group: 0.61% 0.11% 0.56% 12.04%
    Since you wanted a calculation here it is in more detail:
    12.04% / 0.56% = 21.5

    Well, if you’re done you’re done. We can give you arguments but can’t force you to think, nor are we interested in that.

    For those who may be reading this and are interested in logical debates beyond insisting that something “clearly” shows something, here are some thoughts for your consideration.

    Just because a group appears to be selected on some random level of education DOES NOT MEAN it is selected on INTELLIGENCE unless you KNOW the correlation between level of education and intelligence FOR THAT SOCIETY.

    How do you know that the average person in Africa CAN NOT achieve some sort of tertiary (post high school) education if given the opportunity? (Remember we are talking about the quality of education in Africa.) You would need to tell us that the average person does not have the intelligence to do it and has not been hindered by either the extreme lack of schools, the poverty of the parents, the religion of his community, etc etc. — a point that Mr. Res above thinks is irrelevant for as long as he sees that the numbers in the U.K. show a high percentage of those who DID have these opportunities, not necessarily because they were more intelligent than those who do not have them.

    Just about every educated person in Africa has cousins (I expect) who do not have a primary or high school education *because* of where they grew up. When you meet these cousins, you know they won’t know anything about geography or math or science. But learn some complex board game together and they will probably outplay you!

    Thomas Sowell himself has this experience with his siblings/cousins that he had never met and who had no education by the time he met them because of where they grew up. He tells the story of how he would play checkers with these uneducated illiterate cousins, and he was surprised when they beat him — and they weee equally shocked each time he beat them.

    If you could have that situation of a mismatch between education levels and intelligemce (particularly with blacks) especially at some point in the not too distant past in America itself, why would anyone fail to grasp the likelihood that Africa is still very much living with that incongruity?

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    • Agree: Afrosapiens, Okechukwu
    • Replies: @res

    Well, if you’re done you’re done. We can give you arguments but can’t force you to think, nor are we interested in that.
     
    You might also turn that second sentence around. (only I would use "I", not sure why you said "we")

    Just because a group appears to be selected on some random level of education DOES NOT MEAN it is selected on INTELLIGENCE unless you KNOW the correlation between level of education and intelligence FOR THAT SOCIETY.
     
    This statement is important. It seems to be the core of your argument (and I enjoyed all the caps). There is indeed a possibility this is true. There is also a possibility the sun will not rise tomorrow morning. What you are saying in effect is that it is likely that the average low and medium skill Nigerian has equivalent IQ to the average high skill Nigerian emigrant. This is irrefutable without data--which Nigeria seems to be unable to collect. Within the US we see averages along the lines of 87 IQ for less than 10 years of schooling up to 124 IQ for doctorate level: https://brainsize.wordpress.com/2014/06/02/iq-years-of-education/

    Yet you seem to be asserting there is no similar relationship in Nigeria. OK. I guess we will just wait for data. I think everyone who has an open mind can make their own inferences. I am curious what your professional colleagues would make of your argument.

    Meanwhile, for anyone who believes selection by educational level indicates something important, here is another paper from 2006: International Migration by Educational Attainment (1990-2000)
    This research is based on the brain drain data. It really is the best data available for this topic.
    http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/APCITY/UNPAN022366.pdf

    From the text on page 24:


    In relative terms (in proportion of the educated labor force), small countries are the most affected. The emigration rate exceeds 80 percent in nations such as Guyana, Jamaica, Haiti, Grenada, and St. Vincent and the Grenadines. One could argue that the distance from the United States is a key element explaining the high emigration rates from these countries. Nevertheless, we believe that the reality is much more complex. Migration decisions of skilled workers are likely to be less dependent on distances. It also appears that some African countries exhibit high rates of skilled migration. The rate of skilled migration exceeds 50 percent in five African countries (67.5 percent in Cape Verde, 63.3 percent in The Gambia, 55.9 percent in the Seychelles, 56.2 percent in Mauritius, and 52.5 percent in Sierra Leone). Excluding small countries (population below 5 million), column 5 stresses the importance of the brain drain in Africa and Central America. On the western and eastern coasts of Africa, tremendous rates of emigration are found in nations such as Ghana, Mozambique, Sierra Leone, Kenya, Uganda, Angola, and Somalia. In Asia, the countries most affected by migration are the Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Sri Lanka, Hong Kong (China), Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Cambodia. Regarding Europe, emigration rates are particularly strong in Portugal, the Slovak Republic, and the United Kingdom. The last column in table 5.3 reveals that countries from the former Soviet Union and the Gulf States exhibit small rates of migration. This is also the case of OECD countries, such as Japan, France, Sweden, Australia, and the United States. Finally, it is worth noting that developing countries with large stocks of skilled emigrants may exhibit low rates of emigration. This is the case in India (4.3 percent), China (3.8 percent), Indonesia (2.1 percent), and
    Brazil (2.2 percent).

    Many economists have demonstrated that immigrants are not randomly selected. An interesting selection indicator is given by the proportion of skilled emigrants in the total emigration stock. Table 5.4 gives the 30 highest and lowest selection rates among emigrants. The highest selection rates are observed in Asian countries where the rate of brain drain is rather low. Interestingly, Qatar, Oman, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and Kuwait exhibit drastic selection rates despite a low brain drain. Other high-education countries are affected—Taiwan (China), Japan, Hong Kong (China), Canada, and Israel—as well as a few African countries—including Nigeria, Swaziland, South Africa, and Zambia. At the other extremity of the distribution, selection rates are low in traditional unskilled emigration countries such as Turkey, Mali, Portugal, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, and Mauritania. Several OECD countries also exhibit low selection rates (such as Portugal, Mexico, Italy, the Slovak Republic, and Spain). The selection is rather low in a few poor countries characterized by an important brain drain (for example, Senegal, The Gambia, Samoa, Suriname, and Mozambique).

     

    This is a long quote because there is a great deal of important context here. First, it is important to notice that highly selected emigration rate does not necessarily correspond with the most severe brain drain. The raw emigration rate is critically important.

    One point for calibration. The brain drain data gives an emigration rate for China in 2000 of 0.21% (contrast to 3.8% skilled rate above). This aligns with the roughly 10x selectivity (1.95%/0.17% = 11.5) we see for China using my method. Source population data is necessary to calculate their version. Drawing accurate conclusions depends on knowing the proportions of each group in the source population.

    To repeat: "The highest selection rates are observed in Asian countries where the rate of brain drain is rather low."

    So as I observed earlier highly skill selective emigration does not necessarily imply a high brain drain. I have to update my earlier assumptions on that (see, I can learn from new information). unfortunately this paper does not give numbers for Nigeria's brain drain and I don't believe it is possible to calculate it from the publicly released brain drain data (the home population numbers are missing).

    Back to my primary point: "The highest selection rates...as well as a few African
    countries—including Nigeria, Swaziland, South Africa, and Zambia."

    So as I contended Nigeria has selective emigration. Not only that, but Nigeria has the highest selection rate (65%) in Africa and the 6th highest in the world. See Table S4.

    Now that is confirmation!

    Table S.4 gives a list of top ranked countries by emigration stock, emigration rate, and emigration selectivity along with the exact numbers.

    Table 5.3 provides an insightful overview by region.

    I know this won't convince Chanda and a number of commenters here (and I realize it does not address his argument above, which as I said is irrefutable without data). I am fine with that. But I request anyone with an interest in the topic of selective emigration and brain drain to take a look at this paper. It presents a useful interpretation of the data in a very informative way. I just wish they had made their results available for all countries.

    P.S. A slightly older version of that paper is available inline at: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228739789_International_Migration_by_Educational_Attainment_1990-2000-Release_11
    if anyone is interested in taking a quick look. It does not have the table and text above though--see the linked PDF for that.

    P.P.S. This was an interesting quote from the paper: "It is well documented that statistics provided by origin countries do not provide a realistic picture of emigration. When available, they are incomplete and imprecise."
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  • @RaceRealist88

    I thought you are discussing about it in order to dismiss RT as any kind of evidence.
     
    I dismiss RT as a whole as a 'biological correlate' of 'g' due to the trainability of RT.

    However, I still think even if RT is imperfect, the differences found can be valid.
     
    I disagree. Given the pitfalls and other explanatory factors of the observed variance, how can you think that the "differences found" would be valid, say, in a genetic sense, meaning that on average, those with a faster RT will score higher on IQ tests and therefore RT correlates with 'intelligence' or 'g' (whatever they are).

    However, it i reasonable to calculate the difference between two such averages and conclude that temperature has decreased/increased, don’t you think?
     
    I like the analogy, but I still disagree. If there are numerous confounds/other explanations other than the observed variance in 'g' other than 'processing speed', then it is not a good 'biological measure' of 'g'. Therefore, RT is not a good 'biological correlate' of g.

    Also read the paper I linked about RT and IQ being 'too complicated' and that 'revealing a significant correlation depends on various variables (e.g. methodology, data analysis, instrument etc.).'

    http://journals.bmsu.ac.ir/ijmr/index.php/ijmr/article/view/29/72

    There's too much 'going on' to say 'aha! He has a faster RT, therefore higher 'processing speed', therefore is more likely to score higher on IQ tests and be 'intelligent' (whatever that is)!!'

    Sure, but here the learning consisted of being shown a correct answer for two seconds.
     
    Quoting relevant part:

    Next, the feedback sequence began with a 2 s period during which the screen was blank. A fixation crosshair then appeared centrally for 2.5 s followed by the performance-relevant feedback, which consisted of a green asterisk/high tone (positive feedback) or red asterisk/low tone (negative feedback), presented for 1 s. Another crosshair then was presented for 2.5 s, allowing students to prepare for the learning-relevant feedback, which consisted of the correct answer to the question, presented in white for 2 s. This information appeared regardless of whether the students’ initial answer had been correct or incorrect.

    This first portion of the experiment concluded when the student had completed a minimum of 10 trials in all conditions (described below), or had been tested for 3 h, whichever came first. The EEG cap was then removed. After ∼8 min, the student returned to the computer to begin the second phase, which consisted of a surprise retest on all the questions they had answered incorrectly at the first test. Only at the start of the retest were students told that the questions they would be answering were those they had initially gotten wrong. During debriefing, all participants reported being surprised about the retest.

    How would you explain then that IQ is better predictor than social class?
     
    IQ better predictor than what? Citation?

    [the learning consisted of being shown a correct answer for two seconds.] Alright, there was also “wrong!” or “ok!” indication being shown for 1s, so it’s three seconds overall, not two. Come on.

    [ IQ is better predictor than social class?] IQ better predictor than what? Citation?

    SES

    First, “Intelligence and socioeconomic success: A meta-analytic review of longitudinal research” Strenze 2006: Not surprisingly, all the correlations are positive but, judging by the confidence intervals, several of the correlations (e.g., the one between father’s education and education, p=.50, or father’s occupation and occupation, p=.35) are significantly smaller than the respective correlations for intelligence. On the other hand, none of the parental variables [including SES - szopen] is a significantly stronger predictor than intelligence. The SES index is themost successful predictor among the parental variables by not being a significantly weaker predictor than intelligence for any of the measures of success. And, in a footnote: With education as the measure of success, there were 15 samples that provided correlations with both IQ and SES index; in 11 of these samples, the correlations were significantly different (pb.05, 2-tailed); 8 of the significant differences were in favor of IQ. With occupation as the measure of success, 14 comparisons were made; 7 of the differences were significant, all in favor of IQ. With income as the measure of success, 12 comparisons were made; 5 were significant, 2 of them in favor of IQ. These results suggest that there seems to be an overall tendency for IQ to be a better predictor but this tendency is not consistently found in every occasion.

    Furthermore, we have this (the original paper is unavailable currently to me, so thats why I link to the blog):

    http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/03/ses-and-iq.html

    Cognitive Epidemiology: With emphasis on untangling cognitive ability and socioeconomic status, Intelligence 37 (2009) 625-633 [...] compares life outcomes of paired siblings (one of each pair required to be in the “normal” reference range of IQ), thereby controlling for SES. As you can see, IQ has a strong impact on education, earnings and social status even after family SES is controlled for.

    The quoted second link quoted in this blog is unfortunately no longer available.

    This thread becomes so long that it messes up with my browser; I am not sure whether I will participate for much longer (after all, I have already wanted to stop the discussion in comment 619, and then, having weak will and all, I couldn’t resist a temptation to discuss more).

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    • Replies: @res
    Original paper available at https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228473458_Cognitive_epidemiology_With_emphasis_on_untangling_cognitive_ability_and_socioeconomic_status

    Second link available at https://web.archive.org/web/20120119004012/http://www.wfu.edu/provost/rethinkingadmissions/docs/presenters/kuncel.pdf
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  • @utu
    Diversity actually has a salutary effect as it sensitizes people to the values and traditions of others, making conflict less likely.

    Interesting theory. This reminds me of the Rabbi who told one Jew to move a goat into his apartment to reduce his annoyance with his mother in law bickering. It worked, in relative terms. But everybody ended up hating the goat.

    It never ceases to amaze me how inventive people can be in rationalizing their core beliefs and self-interests. They come up with all kinds of counterfactual, ahistorical and illogical nonsense. In your case you also suffer from Messiah complex. You think that Black people will bring the salvation to the world. No, I am wrong. My theory is bad. You could not believe in such humongous chutzpah. But it is possible that all you want is to see European culture go down and see white Europeans suffer. There is a hint of genocidal ideations in you, you know.

    It never ceases to amaze me how inventive people can be in rationalizing their core beliefs and self-interests.

    I don’t really have any core beliefs on the matter. I’d actually like to see quaint little English villages preserved. But the rampaging cultural behemoth called America is the real threat, not some Africans. That said, both you and I lack the wherewithal to disrupt inevitable and inexorable migratory patterns. Humans have always moved around. Countries and cultures and empires have always been transformed. Some have even vanished. You don’t see the Ancient Egyptians or Ancient Romans running around do you?

    In your case you also suffer from Messiah complex. You think that Black people will bring the salvation to the world.

    Would you care to point out where I even intimated this? What I said is that diversity generally confers positive outcomes, provides more enriching experiences and promotes peace. The Belgians of today aren’t going to go to the Congo to chop off limbs. That’s due in large part to the fact that many of them have Congolese friends, neighbors and spouses. Therein lies the power of diversity. But I don’t mean just interracial diversity. Increased intra-European diversity has coincided with the longest period of peace in that continent’s history.

    But it is possible that all you want is to see European culture go down and see white Europeans suffer. There is a hint of genocidal ideations in you, you know.

    Umm…Nope. You do understand that European culture is absolutely dominant, right? The disquiet you feel is because that dominance is starting to slip just a tiny bit. You’re a phony, basically. You’re not actually interested in preserving distinct cultures, languages and traditions. Because if you were you would indict your own European culture that has devastated and subsumed everything in its path. The whole world speaks English, right? Whose language is that?

    There are many organizations like this one:

    http://www.vcproject.org/about/what_we_do/

    Unlike you and your fellow travelers they are genuine preservationists and conservationists. They work to forestall the extinction of genuinely threatened cultures. You, on the other hand, live in an alternative reality in which a colossal hyper-culture that is swallowing up indigenous cultures all around the world is the one that is under threat.

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    • Replies: @szopen

    Increased intra-European diversity has coincided with the longest period of peace in that continent’s history.
     
    Which is why homogenous Japan is constantly attacking every neighbour while diverse USA had not invaded a single country. Also, it was intra-european diversity, not US armies stationing in Europe and atomic bombs and "Red Menace" which forced the peace. Also, another proof is how civil wars has destroyed Poland, Hungary, Czechia and SLovakia, while diverse Yugoslavia stands to this day. From history we know how homogenous Sweden went from war to war in 19th century, while multicultural and diverse Russia was epitome of peace.

    Of course, rise of democracy has nothing to do with lack of wars between the democracies. Everyone also knows that Putnam has proven that the more diverse the neighbourhood, the more eager are the locals to cooperate and the higher the social capital.

    Also, 46 years of long peace (1945-1991, to Yugoslavia wars) is way longer than 40 years of peace in 19th century.

    Maan.

    ANd, BTW, Polish culture is not absolutely dominant :) Moreover, we have never had any colonies, and we were instead subjugated by our neighbours. In addition there was period in history where we were being attacked by (white) Ottomans, and Tatars were decades after decades invading our lands, taking slaves and then selling them in markets of Istanbul.

    Argh, I was supposed to stop reading this thread :)

    PS:

    both you and I lack the wherewithal to disrupt inevitable and inexorable migratory patterns. Humans have always moved around
     
    DOn't move, close you eyes and think of humanity!
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  • @Chanda Chisala
    Oh well, might as well reply to a few comments here since this thread seems to be endless.

    Great. If you accept the brain drain data then we have no issues. Do you accept that data?

     

    You have refused to answer questions on what level of selection you believe the brain drain data represents and apparently you don't get that that's the ONLY piece of data that's relevant to the debate, not the "100 x" that you keep stressing.



    There is probably more evidence for a negative selection than a positive one (generally), as the Bell Curve itself implied.
     
    Do you still believe that? It does not line up with the brain drain data at all
     
    Same answer. Without telling us the level of selection and how you've calculated or even just estimated it, you cannot say what proposed selection level contradicts it.

    And no, you don't ask us to be the ones to do the "math" for you since we are not the ones proposing it.

    [Also, you also did not answer Afrosapien's (or Okechukwu's) question on how many of those migrants got educated in Africa compared to how many did after migration; apparently you don't see the significance of that information for your case either.]



    It would be remarkable if these largely uneducated migrants

     

    Do you still believe the migrants are largely uneducated? That does not line up with the brain drain data at all.
     
    Yes, I still believe it because my statement was referring to university degrees. (Go back to that article and read the whole paragraph) and it was in fact talking about Africans in general, not just Nigerians. The point, once again for the last time, was that the racial hypothesis side that gives the high selection argument, suggest that a group of 100% university educated Africans have lower IQ than a group with LESS university educated Africans WHEN education level is the proxy being used for IQ. Can you at least see that that's an actual logical CONTRADICTION?

    So, tell me: do you believe that this group with less university graduates (it doesn't matter if it's 77% or 61% or much less -- especially if you factor in Afrosapien's question of how many got these degrees in Europe) has a higher IQ than 100 percent university graduates? That, is the quantitative argument you are evading while simultaneously demanding it!

    Let’s take just one of those.

    There is probably more evidence for a negative selection than a positive one (generally), as the Bell Curve itself implied.

    Do you still believe that? It does not line up with the brain drain data at all

    Same answer. Without telling us the level of selection and how you’ve calculated or even just estimated it, you cannot say what proposed selection level contradicts it.

    The brain drain data clearly indicates positive selection is present. There is no need to do any further calculation to distinguish positive from negative. The 20x and 100x differential emigration rates for high vs. medium and low skill groups (which I gave above) are all the proof needed to show positive selection.

    QED.

    P.S. I am done unless you bring better arguments. This one is so obvious I am baffled we are even still talking about it. There is positive selection. Sorry.

    P.P.S. I went through various quotations of the data and calculations above. To save you some work (I know it is hard to search) I will reproduce the data and the more conservative calculation here. These differential emigration rates from Nigeria for men (total/low/medium/high skill) for 2010 clearly show there is a higher rate (at least 20x more!) of emigration for the high skill group: 0.61% 0.11% 0.56% 12.04%
    Since you wanted a calculation here it is in more detail:
    12.04% / 0.56% = 21.5

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    • Replies: @Chanda Chisala
    Well, if you're done you're done. We can give you arguments but can't force you to think, nor are we interested in that.

    For those who may be reading this and are interested in logical debates beyond insisting that something "clearly" shows something, here are some thoughts for your consideration.

    Just because a group appears to be selected on some random level of education DOES NOT MEAN it is selected on INTELLIGENCE unless you KNOW the correlation between level of education and intelligence FOR THAT SOCIETY.

    How do you know that the average person in Africa CAN NOT achieve some sort of tertiary (post high school) education if given the opportunity? (Remember we are talking about the quality of education in Africa.) You would need to tell us that the average person does not have the intelligence to do it and has not been hindered by either the extreme lack of schools, the poverty of the parents, the religion of his community, etc etc. -- a point that Mr. Res above thinks is irrelevant for as long as he sees that the numbers in the U.K. show a high percentage of those who DID have these opportunities, not necessarily because they were more intelligent than those who do not have them.

    Just about every educated person in Africa has cousins (I expect) who do not have a primary or high school education *because* of where they grew up. When you meet these cousins, you know they won't know anything about geography or math or science. But learn some complex board game together and they will probably outplay you!

    Thomas Sowell himself has this experience with his siblings/cousins that he had never met and who had no education by the time he met them because of where they grew up. He tells the story of how he would play checkers with these uneducated illiterate cousins, and he was surprised when they beat him -- and they weee equally shocked each time he beat them.

    If you could have that situation of a mismatch between education levels and intelligemce (particularly with blacks) especially at some point in the not too distant past in America itself, why would anyone fail to grasp the likelihood that Africa is still very much living with that incongruity?
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  • @jimmyriddle
    Once you achieve a GM norm and are awarded the title you have it for life.

    I know that. I am not sure what your point is. I explain the Kenny Solomon history in more detail in comments after that one.

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  • @res
    Great. If you accept the brain drain data then we have no issues. Do you accept that data?

    I'll note that in that same article you say:


    There is probably more evidence for a negative selection than a positive one (generally), as the Bell Curve itself implied.
     
    Do you still believe that? It does not line up with the brain drain data at all.

    You also stated:


    It would be remarkable if these largely uneducated migrants
     
    Do you still believe the migrants are largely uneducated? That does not line up with the brain drain data at all. It also does not line up with the Wikipedia education data for Nigerian immigrants in the US which Afrosapiens presented.

    Cheers.

    P.S. That 100x differential emigration rate between low and high skilled Nigerians is a great stat.

    Oh well, might as well reply to a few comments here since this thread seems to be endless.

    Great. If you accept the brain drain data then we have no issues. Do you accept that data?

    You have refused to answer questions on what level of selection you believe the brain drain data represents and apparently you don’t get that that’s the ONLY piece of data that’s relevant to the debate, not the “100 x” that you keep stressing.

    There is probably more evidence for a negative selection than a positive one (generally), as the Bell Curve itself implied.

    Do you still believe that? It does not line up with the brain drain data at all

    Same answer. Without telling us the level of selection and how you’ve calculated or even just estimated it, you cannot say what proposed selection level contradicts it.

    And no, you don’t ask us to be the ones to do the “math” for you since we are not the ones proposing it.

    [Also, you also did not answer Afrosapien's (or Okechukwu's) question on how many of those migrants got educated in Africa compared to how many did after migration; apparently you don't see the significance of that information for your case either.]

    It would be remarkable if these largely uneducated migrants

    Do you still believe the migrants are largely uneducated? That does not line up with the brain drain data at all.

    Yes, I still believe it because my statement was referring to university degrees. (Go back to that article and read the whole paragraph) and it was in fact talking about Africans in general, not just Nigerians. The point, once again for the last time, was that the racial hypothesis side that gives the high selection argument, suggest that a group of 100% university educated Africans have lower IQ than a group with LESS university educated Africans WHEN education level is the proxy being used for IQ. Can you at least see that that’s an actual logical CONTRADICTION?

    So, tell me: do you believe that this group with less university graduates (it doesn’t matter if it’s 77% or 61% or much less — especially if you factor in Afrosapien’s question of how many got these degrees in Europe) has a higher IQ than 100 percent university graduates? That, is the quantitative argument you are evading while simultaneously demanding it!

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    • Replies: @res
    Let's take just one of those.



    There is probably more evidence for a negative selection than a positive one (generally), as the Bell Curve itself implied.
     
    Do you still believe that? It does not line up with the brain drain data at all
     
    Same answer. Without telling us the level of selection and how you’ve calculated or even just estimated it, you cannot say what proposed selection level contradicts it.
     
    The brain drain data clearly indicates positive selection is present. There is no need to do any further calculation to distinguish positive from negative. The 20x and 100x differential emigration rates for high vs. medium and low skill groups (which I gave above) are all the proof needed to show positive selection.

    QED.

    P.S. I am done unless you bring better arguments. This one is so obvious I am baffled we are even still talking about it. There is positive selection. Sorry.

    P.P.S. I went through various quotations of the data and calculations above. To save you some work (I know it is hard to search) I will reproduce the data and the more conservative calculation here. These differential emigration rates from Nigeria for men (total/low/medium/high skill) for 2010 clearly show there is a higher rate (at least 20x more!) of emigration for the high skill group: 0.61% 0.11% 0.56% 12.04%
    Since you wanted a calculation here it is in more detail:
    12.04% / 0.56% = 21.5

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  • @res
    I seem to recall someone saying something in comment 764 about "uncouth." Now who could that have been?

    Physician, heal thyself.

    Tell someone who cares.

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  • @utu
    I have become fully French while black (in my heart and in the eyes of those who know me)

    You see, those who do not know you have doubts because of your phenotype. And you know they have doubts, so some resentment will be germinating in you and you will start developing new ethnic identity despite of all the efforts your parents put into the project of raising you as French. This proves my point. You may search company of similar to you people commiserate. You see this is one of the mechanisms that I am talking about that will start tearing the society apart. This is not a fault of yours.

    So you are not French as most people even in France understand it. One has to get to know you get convinced that you are French. But you are not French anymore once you became aware. You are hyphenated French or French with qualification and you know it.

    I can become fully Pole likewise. You are obstinate and obtuse. There is no chance of it. If you were raised in Poland like you were raised in French you could achieve some hyphenated Pole status at best. But now you would be just a cartoon caricature.

    Actually I begin to wonder how much your position you present here is a function of you justifying motives and the action of your adoptive parents. It may feel strange to be a subject of an experiment who was run by liberal Jewish couple for unknown motives, perhaps to prove to their liberal friends that they are even more liberal than them so they got themselves a Shvartza mamser. It is hard to top it. They won the contest. You want to believe that their rationalization was right. You will suppress any thoughts of doubts and redouble the proselytizing the gospel of multi-ethnicity but the thoughts of doubt will germinate.

    BF Skinner was such a great believer in his own extreme versions of nurture-over-nature BS that he run an experiment on his own daughters. One of them later sued him and committed suicide.

    You see, those who do not know you have doubts because of your phenotype. And you know they have doubts, so some resentment will be germinating in you and you will start developing new ethnic identity despite of all the efforts your parents put into the project of raising you as French. This proves my point. You may search company of similar to you people commiserate. You see this is one of the mechanisms that I am talking about that will start tearing the society apart. This is not a fault of yours.

    LOL! No. Just no.

    I don’t feel part of a black community, I have a loving family and friends who are mostly whites and Jewish thanks to my fiancéee. I have some black friends, but they’re not my best friends, I don’t feel closer to them than to the whites that I’ve known for much longer. I have everything I need in my life, associating with blacks is not one thing I need in my life. And actually which blacks? Africans and their hundreds of ethnicities? No I don’t live in those cultures. Haitians and other Caribbeans? Not more, I don’t live in those cultures either. I’m just French, Norman, Catholic and blue-blooded. And I’m only mentioning this because we’re talking about it. These labels have no importance in my life, I’m a lot more than just ethnic/national/religious/social labels.

    Regarding what strangers think I am, I just never cared one second. And most people never care either, a black man walking down the streets is a common daily sight in France and no one never gives it a single thought, I never get hostile looks or insults. People I meet rarely ask me where I’m from, and in any case the blacks do it much more than the whites, they want to know if I’m from their country. I speak without an accent so when I just go buy a baguette at the boulangerie, I’m just like anyone else except I’m handsome, and black and people have gotten used to that. They see the national soccer team, they see French players playing for our country, not an army of foreign mercenaries and it’s a multicolor crowd that supports them in the stadium.

    So you are not French as most people even in France understand it. One has to get to know you get convinced that you are French. But you are not French anymore once you became aware. You are hyphenated French or French with qualification and you know it.

    No, because there are no hyphenated identities in France. People don’t refer to themselves as Italian-French as do Italian-Americans. If they feel Italian, they call themselves Italian, if they’re from an African country but they feel French, they call themselves French. It’s simple.

    But now you would be just a cartoon caricature.

    That’s just your opinion because you don’t believe in assimilation, a lot of people believe in it or are simply able to accept that someone is different and the same altogether.

    Actually I begin to wonder how much your position you present here is a function of you justifying motives and the action of your adoptive parents. It may feel strange to be a subject of an experiment who was run by liberal Jewish couple for unknown motives, perhaps to prove to their liberal friends that they are even more liberal than them so they got themselves a Shvartza mamser.

    LMAO! Don’t try to guess, my parents are not even Jewish. My parents’ motivation for having me and my sisters is they wanted kids and thought there were already many kids in need of love, so it was pointless to have kids of their own. And my mother was not so thrilled by the idea of pregnancy.

    It is hard to top it. They won the contest. You want to believe that their rationalization was right. You will suppress any thoughts of doubts and redouble the proselytizing the gospel of multi-ethnicity but the thoughts of doubt will germinate.

    BF Skinner was such a great believer in his own extreme versions of nurture-over-nature BS that he run an experiment on his own daughters. One of them later sued him and committed suicide.

    Thank you for your attempt at armchair cyber-psychology but you just made me laugh this time.

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    • Replies: @Okechukwu

    They see the national soccer team, they see French players playing for our country, not an army of foreign mercenaries and it’s a multicolor crowd that supports them in the stadium.
     
    I'm not a soccer fan, but I do know a little about your national basketball team:

    http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/french-national-basketball-team-poses-before-a-friendly-game-between-picture-id119892044

    I recognize at least 4 of these guys from the NBA. One of them, Tony Parker, is considered one of the greatest point guards to ever play.
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  • @res
    Your South African table doesn't (AFAICT) directly show that Kenny Solomon is a GM (if you disagree please point me to the exact place you see that information at that link).

    However, his profile page does show that he earned the FIDE Grandmaster title in 2015 and is thus much better evidence for your point: https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=14300192

    The interesting question is how did he become a GM given that the threshold is usually 2500 and his current ranking is just under 2400 (per link above it is 2398)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_titles#Grandmaster_.28GM.29
    Much more on the Grandmaster title and its history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmaster_(chess)

    If anyone has an FIDE account (I do not) they can check his progress with the rating chart to see if he ever exceeded 2500.
    His Wikipedia page gives his peak rating as 2461 in 2012: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Solomon
    Per that page he achieved his Grandmaster title by winning the African Chess Championship in December 2014. The odd thing is that this 2012 article mentions that both a 2500 rating and "three norms" are required (full article no longer available at the original site, emphasis mine): https://web.archive.org/web/20120925042110/http://allafrica.com/stories/201209170659.html


    Solomon is on the verge of attaining the highest possible ranking in the chess world, with the exception of "World Champion". Chess SA President Emelia Ellappen explained to the Daily Maverick that in order to achieve Grandmaster status, one has to have a rating of 2,500, with three "Grandmaster norms". You get your norms by performing well at chess tournaments at which other Grandmasters are competing. Solomon has the norms in the bag already. All he now needs is 50 more rating points, but the really difficult part is behind him: it is now assured that Solomon will become South Africa's first-ever chess Grandmaster, a title he will hold for life. He joins more than 1,300 active Grandmasters worldwide.
     
    Strange. That article was also about three years premature AFAICT. BTW, it appears they misjudged which part (norms vs, rating) was most difficult.

    So Kenny Solomon is an FIDE Grandmaster per the FIDE. However, I think this makes rather than refutes Dr. Thompson's point about the importance of impartial thresholds for analysis of quantitative traits (like IQ or FIDE rating).

    Regarding selective immigration, if I recall correctly the proportion of high performers in a given immigrant population (e.g. the UK) was an important component of your mean IQ estimates argument for the underlying country populations.

    The IAB brain-drain data at http://www.iab.de/en/daten/iab-brain-drain-data.aspx
    provides detailed data for immigrants by both source and destination country divided into three skill levels. That data clearly shows how selective immigration is (e.g. from Nigeria to the UK). How about you pick a relevant pair of countries and we can have a further discussion about that? Alternatively you can just concede that there IS significant selective immigration and we can move on to the discussion you started above as to whether or not that matters (and revisit some of your earlier arguments and assertions concerning selective immigration).

    Once you achieve a GM norm and are awarded the title you have it for life.

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    • Replies: @res
    I know that. I am not sure what your point is. I explain the Kenny Solomon history in more detail in comments after that one.
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  • @Okechukwu

    I am trying my best but I am finding that this requires lots of effort and lots of energy that otherwise could have been spent on something more productive than the constant dance of mending fences, tip toeing, avoidance, unnecessary confrontations, that would be totally unnecessary in the mono-ethnic, mono-cultural society.
     
    Then it's safe to say you'd prefer the war, rape, pillage, plunder, genocides, pogroms and wholesale carnage that characterized European history for millennia. Was "mono-ethnic" England, for example, a font of peace and comity? Diversity actually has a salutary effect as it sensitizes people to the values and traditions of others, making conflict less likely. Neither Europe nor America were model societies when they were less diverse. They are far, far better now.

    I'm sure you're aware that the most common type of war is civil war -- people of the same ethnicity and culture cutting each other to pieces. Mono-ethnic/cultural societies have never been free of conflict. They've always required tip toeing, fence mending, tolerance, negotiation and conflict resolution.

    Diversity actually has a salutary effect as it sensitizes people to the values and traditions of others, making conflict less likely.

    Interesting theory. This reminds me of the Rabbi who told one Jew to move a goat into his apartment to reduce his annoyance with his mother in law bickering. It worked, in relative terms. But everybody ended up hating the goat.

    It never ceases to amaze me how inventive people can be in rationalizing their core beliefs and self-interests. They come up with all kinds of counterfactual, ahistorical and illogical nonsense. In your case you also suffer from Messiah complex. You think that Black people will bring the salvation to the world. No, I am wrong. My theory is bad. You could not believe in such humongous chutzpah. But it is possible that all you want is to see European culture go down and see white Europeans suffer. There is a hint of genocidal ideations in you, you know.

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    • Replies: @Okechukwu

    It never ceases to amaze me how inventive people can be in rationalizing their core beliefs and self-interests.
     
    I don't really have any core beliefs on the matter. I'd actually like to see quaint little English villages preserved. But the rampaging cultural behemoth called America is the real threat, not some Africans. That said, both you and I lack the wherewithal to disrupt inevitable and inexorable migratory patterns. Humans have always moved around. Countries and cultures and empires have always been transformed. Some have even vanished. You don't see the Ancient Egyptians or Ancient Romans running around do you?

    In your case you also suffer from Messiah complex. You think that Black people will bring the salvation to the world.
     
    Would you care to point out where I even intimated this? What I said is that diversity generally confers positive outcomes, provides more enriching experiences and promotes peace. The Belgians of today aren't going to go to the Congo to chop off limbs. That's due in large part to the fact that many of them have Congolese friends, neighbors and spouses. Therein lies the power of diversity. But I don't mean just interracial diversity. Increased intra-European diversity has coincided with the longest period of peace in that continent's history.

    But it is possible that all you want is to see European culture go down and see white Europeans suffer. There is a hint of genocidal ideations in you, you know.
     
    Umm...Nope. You do understand that European culture is absolutely dominant, right? The disquiet you feel is because that dominance is starting to slip just a tiny bit. You're a phony, basically. You're not actually interested in preserving distinct cultures, languages and traditions. Because if you were you would indict your own European culture that has devastated and subsumed everything in its path. The whole world speaks English, right? Whose language is that?

    There are many organizations like this one:

    http://www.vcproject.org/about/what_we_do/

    Unlike you and your fellow travelers they are genuine preservationists and conservationists. They work to forestall the extinction of genuinely threatened cultures. You, on the other hand, live in an alternative reality in which a colossal hyper-culture that is swallowing up indigenous cultures all around the world is the one that is under threat.
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  • @Afrosapiens

    Citation needed.
     
    Go fuck yourself with the citations. I told you I don't always waste time on looking for the links of sources I recall. Now since epigenetics is one mode of inheritance it must at least partially show up in narrow-sense heritability. it's basic logic. Duh!

    Go fuck yourself with the citations.

    Illiterate peasants had reverence for and fear of the power of written words. It was enough to tell them it is written here that this cow is not your cow and they would give the cow up. A piece of paper could do that. Magical power of paper. There are contemporary literate versions of these peasants who believe in everything is published in scientific literature particularly among the so called educated classes. Solzhenitsyn called them Obrazovanshchina.

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  • @szopen

    if you’re socially adjusted and you know that some consider a word offensive, you don’t use it
     
    So you are now saying that the fact that some people would complain about the word, WOULD in fact be a matter of concern for me - despite before you said you said I shouldnt care about some foreign people trying to change the meaning of words in my native language.

    As for your son, how would you know he’s losing a job to affirmative action?
     
    Why take the risks?

    Of course I can, just like your own quote says.
     

    A person who says one day he can be French and then another day he would just decide to become Pole? No, I doubt it.

    Let’s not even talk about your absurd familism analogy.
     
    What's absurd about that? Polish nation is a family, and this is still the prevalent thinking here despite some leftist trying to impose western sense of "nationality", alien to our tradition.

    If I moved to Poland, I’d find a local chapter and give a Polish voice to this effort.
     
    That the one more reason not to allow you to become Polish citizen, as you once again seem like one of those globalist folks. The immigrants usually are more to the left than natives, in France, UK and USA. They also tend to respect less local traditions, vote more for the left and they believe in multiculturalism. Why should I import immigrant, which would most likely vote for parties I don't like, and espouse ideas I don't like, and will be used by leftists to advance their ideas?

    Once again, it's my right to decide who will become part of my family. I do not have to explain why I don't agree for someone to join my family.

    As for my activity, sorry, it's not of your business, especially, that on internet everyone can declare anything. I do not wish to resign from my anonymity to prove something and why would you believe in anything I wrote about myself with me bein anonymous. I am involved in local and patriotic organisations, though.

    Hundreds of thousands of Poles have become French in their heart and been accepted as such so why not the opposite?
     

    In theory, yes and I already wrote that anyone could become Pole - it's just I doubt you could based on what you have written above. Also, I have written above that one thing is accept 10 imigrants, hundred, and another thing is to accept hundreds of thousands. We are ethnically homogenous country and I like it to stay that way.

    ALso, it depends on kind of immigrant. Ukrainians will assimilate faster than French, catholic Spaniards faster than Nigerians, and catholic Nigerians faster than muslim Turks.


    how do you pronounce the others?
     
    ą is nasal "o". "ę" is nasal e. ó is just u and is pronounced "oo" like in "book" or "cook". Both "sz" and "ś" are rendered in ENglish as "sh", just as both "cz" and "ć" are rendered as "ch". "ś", "ź", "ć" and "ń" are palatalised, soft versions of s, z,c,n. "Ł" is "w" as in wind. "rz" and "ż" are the same sound nowadays, except some dialects, and are rendered in English usually as "zh".

    basicaly you have voiced-invoiced-soft voiced-soft invoiced- "noisy" voiced- "noisy invoiced(szumiący, I forget the proper english term) sequence:
    Z-S-Ź-Ś-Ż-SZ
    DZ-C-DŹ-Ć-DŻ-CZ
    You can find the examples of pronounciation on youtube, but I was told by some English speakers they do not hear the difference between sz-ś and cz-ć (same as when I try to grasp the differences between some English vowels).

    Actually, Polish spelling is very easy, and has only few exceptions. Every word can be read only in one way. Writing is a bit harder, because of historical reasons: we still use "ch" and "h" and "rz-ż" despite the sounds are nowadays the same, there are general rules but they have exceptions.

    one thing is accept 10 imigrants, hundred, and another thing is to accept hundreds of thousands

    The phrase village idiot is always singular and never plural. Perhaps because two of them could start the Idiots Anti-Defamation league. The villages that boast of not having any idiots may actually have many but hidden by the tinkering with semantics.

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  • @Afrosapiens

    Citation needed.
     
    Go fuck yourself with the citations. I told you I don't always waste time on looking for the links of sources I recall. Now since epigenetics is one mode of inheritance it must at least partially show up in narrow-sense heritability. it's basic logic. Duh!

    I seem to recall someone saying something in comment 764 about “uncouth.” Now who could that have been?

    Physician, heal thyself.

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    Tell someone who cares.
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  • @Afrosapiens
    I have become fully French while black (in my heart and in the eyes of those who know me), I can become fully Pole likewise.

    I have become fully French while black (in my heart and in the eyes of those who know me)

    You see, those who do not know you have doubts because of your phenotype. And you know they have doubts, so some resentment will be germinating in you and you will start developing new ethnic identity despite of all the efforts your parents put into the project of raising you as French. This proves my point. You may search company of similar to you people commiserate. You see this is one of the mechanisms that I am talking about that will start tearing the society apart. This is not a fault of yours.

    So you are not French as most people even in France understand it. One has to get to know you get convinced that you are French. But you are not French anymore once you became aware. You are hyphenated French or French with qualification and you know it.

    I can become fully Pole likewise. You are obstinate and obtuse. There is no chance of it. If you were raised in Poland like you were raised in French you could achieve some hyphenated Pole status at best. But now you would be just a cartoon caricature.

    Actually I begin to wonder how much your position you present here is a function of you justifying motives and the action of your adoptive parents. It may feel strange to be a subject of an experiment who was run by liberal Jewish couple for unknown motives, perhaps to prove to their liberal friends that they are even more liberal than them so they got themselves a Shvartza mamser. It is hard to top it. They won the contest. You want to believe that their rationalization was right. You will suppress any thoughts of doubts and redouble the proselytizing the gospel of multi-ethnicity but the thoughts of doubt will germinate.

    BF Skinner was such a great believer in his own extreme versions of nurture-over-nature BS that he run an experiment on his own daughters. One of them later sued him and committed suicide.

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens

    You see, those who do not know you have doubts because of your phenotype. And you know they have doubts, so some resentment will be germinating in you and you will start developing new ethnic identity despite of all the efforts your parents put into the project of raising you as French. This proves my point. You may search company of similar to you people commiserate. You see this is one of the mechanisms that I am talking about that will start tearing the society apart. This is not a fault of yours.
     
    LOL! No. Just no.

    I don't feel part of a black community, I have a loving family and friends who are mostly whites and Jewish thanks to my fiancéee. I have some black friends, but they're not my best friends, I don't feel closer to them than to the whites that I've known for much longer. I have everything I need in my life, associating with blacks is not one thing I need in my life. And actually which blacks? Africans and their hundreds of ethnicities? No I don't live in those cultures. Haitians and other Caribbeans? Not more, I don't live in those cultures either. I'm just French, Norman, Catholic and blue-blooded. And I'm only mentioning this because we're talking about it. These labels have no importance in my life, I'm a lot more than just ethnic/national/religious/social labels.

    Regarding what strangers think I am, I just never cared one second. And most people never care either, a black man walking down the streets is a common daily sight in France and no one never gives it a single thought, I never get hostile looks or insults. People I meet rarely ask me where I'm from, and in any case the blacks do it much more than the whites, they want to know if I'm from their country. I speak without an accent so when I just go buy a baguette at the boulangerie, I'm just like anyone else except I'm handsome, and black and people have gotten used to that. They see the national soccer team, they see French players playing for our country, not an army of foreign mercenaries and it's a multicolor crowd that supports them in the stadium.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/football/2016/06/04/france_win-xlarge_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpg

    So you are not French as most people even in France understand it. One has to get to know you get convinced that you are French. But you are not French anymore once you became aware. You are hyphenated French or French with qualification and you know it.
     
    No, because there are no hyphenated identities in France. People don't refer to themselves as Italian-French as do Italian-Americans. If they feel Italian, they call themselves Italian, if they're from an African country but they feel French, they call themselves French. It's simple.

    But now you would be just a cartoon caricature.
     
    That's just your opinion because you don't believe in assimilation, a lot of people believe in it or are simply able to accept that someone is different and the same altogether.

    Actually I begin to wonder how much your position you present here is a function of you justifying motives and the action of your adoptive parents. It may feel strange to be a subject of an experiment who was run by liberal Jewish couple for unknown motives, perhaps to prove to their liberal friends that they are even more liberal than them so they got themselves a Shvartza mamser.
     
    LMAO! Don't try to guess, my parents are not even Jewish. My parents' motivation for having me and my sisters is they wanted kids and thought there were already many kids in need of love, so it was pointless to have kids of their own. And my mother was not so thrilled by the idea of pregnancy.

    It is hard to top it. They won the contest. You want to believe that their rationalization was right. You will suppress any thoughts of doubts and redouble the proselytizing the gospel of multi-ethnicity but the thoughts of doubt will germinate.

    BF Skinner was such a great believer in his own extreme versions of nurture-over-nature BS that he run an experiment on his own daughters. One of them later sued him and committed suicide.
     
    Thank you for your attempt at armchair cyber-psychology but you just made me laugh this time.
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  • @Anon
    No, you can't. The very fact that if "SHTF" in France you think you can drop your Frenchness and suddenly become Polish is a sufficient demonstration of this fact.

    I did not say suddenly, but I can work on it.

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  • @szopen
    BUt the "nationalism/tribalism" usually does raise "its ugly head" quite regularly with history, starting with medieval times (e.g. in my country in XIV century). It's not like if it would just magically disappear. SO why risk it, especially if the ethnic diversity main contribution supposed to be the fact that the people will be less sensitive to ethnic diversity?

    BUt the “nationalism/tribalism” usually does raise “its ugly head” quite regularly with history, starting with medieval times (e.g. in my country in XIV century). It’s not like if it would just magically disappear. SO why risk it, especially if the ethnic diversity main contribution supposed to be the fact that the people will be less sensitive to ethnic diversity?

    Only if leaders play with it and masses agree to fall for it. But the mass can also be taught not to fall for it. France didn’t fall for islamophobia after a series of terrorist attacks, because we understood it was the dumbest thing to do. Those on the far right that tried to prey on the situation were badly beaten in the last presidential election. It’s a better proof of intelligence than any national IQ estimate.

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  • @Afrosapiens
    I have become fully French while black (in my heart and in the eyes of those who know me), I can become fully Pole likewise.

    No, you can’t. The very fact that if “SHTF” in France you think you can drop your Frenchness and suddenly become Polish is a sufficient demonstration of this fact.

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    I did not say suddenly, but I can work on it.
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  • @res

    Epigenetic modifications inherited from parents are supposed to show in narrow-sense heritability. Those that happen later in life are part of non-shared environment.
     
    Citation needed. Most of what I have seen is speculation of the form "epigenetics could show up in narrow-sense heritability given the following conditions..." I have not seen any attempts to quantify how often this actually happens.

    We do know the inheritance is not as complete as for DNA. See studies looking at the epigenetics of discordant twins like this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4931599/
    Thought there are cases where the DNA of MZ twins differ (mostly CNVs it sounds like): https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/identical-twins-genes-are-not-identical/
    I don't know of anyone trying to incorporate that special case into studies.

    It is also important to remember that those inherited epigenetic marks can change later (unlike DNA!).

    Citation needed.

    Go fuck yourself with the citations. I told you I don’t always waste time on looking for the links of sources I recall. Now since epigenetics is one mode of inheritance it must at least partially show up in narrow-sense heritability. it’s basic logic. Duh!

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    • Replies: @res
    I seem to recall someone saying something in comment 764 about "uncouth." Now who could that have been?

    Physician, heal thyself.
    , @utu
    Go fuck yourself with the citations.

    Illiterate peasants had reverence for and fear of the power of written words. It was enough to tell them it is written here that this cow is not your cow and they would give the cow up. A piece of paper could do that. Magical power of paper. There are contemporary literate versions of these peasants who believe in everything is published in scientific literature particularly among the so called educated classes. Solzhenitsyn called them Obrazovanshchina.
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  • @RaceRealist88

    Now, when it comes to epigenetics, my understanding is that the effects only last for a couple of generations after a shock. So both slavery and serfdom are way too far behind to have lasting effects in my opinion. Whatever epigenetic disadvantage that African American have must be from currently living or having recent ancestors like grandparents that lived in violent ghettos.
     
    Here's a paper on epigenetics across the human lifespan:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4207041/

    For example, exposure to pharmaceutical and toxic chemicals, diet, stress, exercise, and other environmental factors are capable of eliciting positive or negative epigenetic modifications with lasting effects on development, metabolism and health. These can impact the body so profoundly as to permanently alter the epigenetic profile of an individual. We also present a comprehensive new hypothesis of how these diverse environmental factors cause both direct and indirect epigenetic changes and how this knowledge can ultimately be used to improve personalized medicine.

    Here's one on epigenetic responses to childhood violence exposure.

    https://moffittcaspi.com/sites/moffittcaspi.com/files/field/publication_uploads/G_Mill_Childhood_violence_ex%20changes_April_2012.pdf

    The most well-known example on the effects of epigenetics across generations is from the Dutch famine in the mid 40s. Low birth weight babies persisted for two generations after the famine.

    https://academic.oup.com/humupd/article/21/2/194/785656/Environmental-epigenetic-inheritance-through

    Interesting, here it persists for two generations do you know if it persisted any longer?

    Also, we hear about epigenetics acting for the worse. Do epigenetics act for the better in some cases? Have you heard of something like that?

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  • @szopen
    Wow, I knew Poland is affected by the brain drain, but I didn't knew this is this bad.

    However, I think the WW2+communism did more to affect IQ scores of Poland than the recent brain drain.

    As for the gap, notice that on the graph you have kindly presented, all of the reduction happened up til 1986 and then stayed the same. Why then assumption that the gap narrowing continues?

    (note also that Rushton&Jensen rebuttal is also based on NAEP data :D )

    However, I think the WW2+communism did more to affect IQ scores of Poland than the recent brain drain.

    Maybe, I can’t tell. But at the same time, many poor Poles have left to western Europe and the Americas before WW2, that could have removed many lower IQ people too. French people of Polish ancestry are still mostly working-class, lower-middle class. There are no stats but I know that names that sound Eastern and Southern European are rare in the French upper class.

    As for the gap, notice that on the graph you have kindly presented, all of the reduction happened up til 1986 and then stayed the same. Why then assumption that the gap narrowing continues?

    Notice how the gap was reduced by 5 points between 1999 and 2004. Then they changed the assessment method and the gap narrowed by two points between 2004 and 2012, that’s a 6.66% drop in 8 years so it’s a sign of ongoing progress.

    Similar trend in reading, which is apparently more g-loaded.

    (note also that Rushton&Jensen rebuttal is also based on NAEP data :D )

    These guys always cook the books.

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  • @szopen

    if you’re socially adjusted and you know that some consider a word offensive, you don’t use it
     
    So you are now saying that the fact that some people would complain about the word, WOULD in fact be a matter of concern for me - despite before you said you said I shouldnt care about some foreign people trying to change the meaning of words in my native language.

    As for your son, how would you know he’s losing a job to affirmative action?
     
    Why take the risks?

    Of course I can, just like your own quote says.
     

    A person who says one day he can be French and then another day he would just decide to become Pole? No, I doubt it.

    Let’s not even talk about your absurd familism analogy.
     
    What's absurd about that? Polish nation is a family, and this is still the prevalent thinking here despite some leftist trying to impose western sense of "nationality", alien to our tradition.

    If I moved to Poland, I’d find a local chapter and give a Polish voice to this effort.
     
    That the one more reason not to allow you to become Polish citizen, as you once again seem like one of those globalist folks. The immigrants usually are more to the left than natives, in France, UK and USA. They also tend to respect less local traditions, vote more for the left and they believe in multiculturalism. Why should I import immigrant, which would most likely vote for parties I don't like, and espouse ideas I don't like, and will be used by leftists to advance their ideas?

    Once again, it's my right to decide who will become part of my family. I do not have to explain why I don't agree for someone to join my family.

    As for my activity, sorry, it's not of your business, especially, that on internet everyone can declare anything. I do not wish to resign from my anonymity to prove something and why would you believe in anything I wrote about myself with me bein anonymous. I am involved in local and patriotic organisations, though.

    Hundreds of thousands of Poles have become French in their heart and been accepted as such so why not the opposite?
     

    In theory, yes and I already wrote that anyone could become Pole - it's just I doubt you could based on what you have written above. Also, I have written above that one thing is accept 10 imigrants, hundred, and another thing is to accept hundreds of thousands. We are ethnically homogenous country and I like it to stay that way.

    ALso, it depends on kind of immigrant. Ukrainians will assimilate faster than French, catholic Spaniards faster than Nigerians, and catholic Nigerians faster than muslim Turks.


    how do you pronounce the others?
     
    ą is nasal "o". "ę" is nasal e. ó is just u and is pronounced "oo" like in "book" or "cook". Both "sz" and "ś" are rendered in ENglish as "sh", just as both "cz" and "ć" are rendered as "ch". "ś", "ź", "ć" and "ń" are palatalised, soft versions of s, z,c,n. "Ł" is "w" as in wind. "rz" and "ż" are the same sound nowadays, except some dialects, and are rendered in English usually as "zh".

    basicaly you have voiced-invoiced-soft voiced-soft invoiced- "noisy" voiced- "noisy invoiced(szumiący, I forget the proper english term) sequence:
    Z-S-Ź-Ś-Ż-SZ
    DZ-C-DŹ-Ć-DŻ-CZ
    You can find the examples of pronounciation on youtube, but I was told by some English speakers they do not hear the difference between sz-ś and cz-ć (same as when I try to grasp the differences between some English vowels).

    Actually, Polish spelling is very easy, and has only few exceptions. Every word can be read only in one way. Writing is a bit harder, because of historical reasons: we still use "ch" and "h" and "rz-ż" despite the sounds are nowadays the same, there are general rules but they have exceptions.

    ALso, it depends on kind of immigrant. Ukrainians will assimilate faster than French, catholic Spaniards faster than Nigerians, and catholic Nigerians faster than muslim Turks.

    Nigerians or Turks will assimilate only in narrow sense and still under the condition that you will assimilate to them help them assimilate to you. So together with the Nigerians or Turks you will transform the mono-ethnic society into the multi-ethnic one that is altogether completely different animal that requires lots of daily “assimilations” on your part to function though much lower level than before.

    szopen, your dabbling in HBD and the IQ cult for a Pole is out of your national character. Certainly it does not go with Catholic tradition or mono-ethnic culture. This shit is strictly for the Anglos and by the Anglos. Even Nazis were not really into it. Let them imbibe the toxins of their own creation but you really do not have to be part in it. Snap out of it, man.

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  • @res
    Yes there is something to epigenetics. I thought it interesting and important enough that I took an online class about it a few years ago. The question is how will it show up in the studies? I suspect it will be seen more between cohorts because environments tend to have a uniform variation over time (perhaps related to the Flynn effect?).

    A useful example to think about is the disease PKU. The root cause is completely genetic. Whether or not it manifests depends on environment--it can be dealt with through diet. Assuming reasonably uniform environments, say in England which introduced screening around 1960: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18275669
    I would expect to see the following:
    pre-screening: looked completely genetic (the diet is not one you would hit on accidentally and the damage is done early)
    post-screening: don't see it at all (manifesting)
    between those generations we see the large environmental component

    Yes there is something to epigenetics. I thought it interesting and important enough that I took an online class about it a few years ago. The question is how will it show up in the studies? I suspect it will be seen more between cohorts because environments tend to have a uniform variation over time (perhaps related to the Flynn effect?).

    It’d come up as genetic despite being inherited through environmental factors of parents/grandparents/etc.

    pre-screening: looked completely genetic (the diet is not one you would hit on accidentally and the damage is done early)

    Right. But in the case of epigenetic factors, it’d be environmental despite ‘looking genetic’.

    The whole of the intelligent system instructs the genes what to do; genes don’t instruct the system what to do. Recall back to our discussion on holism (which I’ll get to soon) and how the whole needs to be looked at, not part A or part B on its own.

    Read these:

    Rocking the foundations of molecular genetics

    Replace the Modern Synthesis (Neo-Darwinism): An Interview With Denis Noble

    Physiology is rocking the foundations of evolutionary biology

    Note that this environmental source of variation [epigenetic variation] will appear in the behavioral genetics twin-study as genetic variation: quite probably another way in which heritability estimates are distorted. (Richardson, 2017: 129)

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  • @utu
    Oh believe me, I have no such intention. But if my life had pushed me in this direction, I could. Hundreds of thousands of Poles have become French in their heart and been accepted as such so why not the opposite?

    Do not forget who you are. Do not forget where the discussion started. It was my supposition that external phenotypic differences like the color of the skin makes a complete and successful assimilation impossible in mono-ethnic society due to many processes. I wrote about the critical role of mimicry (#722) in the process of assimilation which white Frenchmen, just like the Poles in France, can resort to in Poland, so they unlike you can have a good shot at true assimilation with a minimal impact on the larger society. For you and other x-Africans to succeed in assimilation Poland would have to retool itself from the mono-ethnic society to the multi-ethnic society with all its drawbacks. This pure chutzpah on your or Okechukwu's part, (who goes even further by arguing that this retooling will make Europeans societies better because it will save Europeans from themselves) to make such demands.

    The discussion is about your and Okechukwu skin color. It is not about your brains or IQ or chess skills or religion or sanitary habits. My argument was that skin color is a sufficient factor to sow the discord and initiate transformations in the monochromatic society. The transformation will lead to invention of racial identities and stratifications and clusterization along the racial lines. Racial theories will be imported from the most rabid Anglo-Saxon sources and the Nation of Islam megalomaniacal ignoramuses. Does Poland really need it?

    I have become fully French while black (in my heart and in the eyes of those who know me), I can become fully Pole likewise.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    No, you can't. The very fact that if "SHTF" in France you think you can drop your Frenchness and suddenly become Polish is a sufficient demonstration of this fact.
    , @utu
    I have become fully French while black (in my heart and in the eyes of those who know me)

    You see, those who do not know you have doubts because of your phenotype. And you know they have doubts, so some resentment will be germinating in you and you will start developing new ethnic identity despite of all the efforts your parents put into the project of raising you as French. This proves my point. You may search company of similar to you people commiserate. You see this is one of the mechanisms that I am talking about that will start tearing the society apart. This is not a fault of yours.

    So you are not French as most people even in France understand it. One has to get to know you get convinced that you are French. But you are not French anymore once you became aware. You are hyphenated French or French with qualification and you know it.

    I can become fully Pole likewise. You are obstinate and obtuse. There is no chance of it. If you were raised in Poland like you were raised in French you could achieve some hyphenated Pole status at best. But now you would be just a cartoon caricature.

    Actually I begin to wonder how much your position you present here is a function of you justifying motives and the action of your adoptive parents. It may feel strange to be a subject of an experiment who was run by liberal Jewish couple for unknown motives, perhaps to prove to their liberal friends that they are even more liberal than them so they got themselves a Shvartza mamser. It is hard to top it. They won the contest. You want to believe that their rationalization was right. You will suppress any thoughts of doubts and redouble the proselytizing the gospel of multi-ethnicity but the thoughts of doubt will germinate.

    BF Skinner was such a great believer in his own extreme versions of nurture-over-nature BS that he run an experiment on his own daughters. One of them later sued him and committed suicide.
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  • @Afrosapiens

    What that implies is even if it turns out to be relevant in a meaningful way (in terms of percent variance explained) it is only taking away from the variance we currently assume is explained by the environment.
     
    Epigenetic modifications inherited from parents are supposed to show in narrow-sense heritability. Those that happen later in life are part of non-shared environment.

    The meme of epigenetics somehow significantly reducing the importance of genetics is simply wrong.
     
    No, sorry for your Darwinian fantasies. Ask RaceRealist about those topics, he's also knowledgeable on the influence of the microbiome and other evolutionary processes that act independently of genes.

    Epigenetic modifications inherited from parents are supposed to show in narrow-sense heritability. Those that happen later in life are part of non-shared environment.

    Citation needed. Most of what I have seen is speculation of the form “epigenetics could show up in narrow-sense heritability given the following conditions…” I have not seen any attempts to quantify how often this actually happens.

    We do know the inheritance is not as complete as for DNA. See studies looking at the epigenetics of discordant twins like this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4931599/
    Thought there are cases where the DNA of MZ twins differ (mostly CNVs it sounds like): https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/identical-twins-genes-are-not-identical/
    I don’t know of anyone trying to incorporate that special case into studies.

    It is also important to remember that those inherited epigenetic marks can change later (unlike DNA!).

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens

    Citation needed.
     
    Go fuck yourself with the citations. I told you I don't always waste time on looking for the links of sources I recall. Now since epigenetics is one mode of inheritance it must at least partially show up in narrow-sense heritability. it's basic logic. Duh!
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  • @Afrosapiens
    According to res' beloved brain drain data 14,54% of the highest skill group, 2,97% of the medium skill one and 5.85% of the lowest skill group have left Poland to other OECD countries between 2006 and 2005. Few must have left as illegals since Poles mostly emigrate to other European Union countries. These things do matter.

    According to my estimates based on education variables, Poland's mean IQ is 98. Knowing that years of education is not a perfect proxy for IQ test performance, Poland's averageIQ can reasonably be anywhere between 93 and 103.

    As for African-Americans, the 90 estimate and a gap reduced by one third of SD is consistent with similarly narrower gaps in education. See the math gap reduced by 40% since 1974, so the gap could even be narrower among the youngest cohorts.

    https://gfbrandenburg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/black-white-ach-gap-13yo-math-naep-ltt.png

    Moreover, Flynn's estimate is from the WAIS standardization sample which was meant to be representative, Jensen and Rushton's rebuttals were based on whatever samples they found to make their point. So they're worthless as usual.

    Now, when it comes to epigenetics, my understanding is that the effects only last for a couple of generations after a shock. So both slavery and serfdom are way too far behind to have lasting effects in my opinion. Whatever epigenetic disadvantage that African American have must be from currently living or having recent ancestors like grandparents that lived in violent ghettos.

    Now, when it comes to epigenetics, my understanding is that the effects only last for a couple of generations after a shock. So both slavery and serfdom are way too far behind to have lasting effects in my opinion. Whatever epigenetic disadvantage that African American have must be from currently living or having recent ancestors like grandparents that lived in violent ghettos.

    Here’s a paper on epigenetics across the human lifespan:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4207041/

    For example, exposure to pharmaceutical and toxic chemicals, diet, stress, exercise, and other environmental factors are capable of eliciting positive or negative epigenetic modifications with lasting effects on development, metabolism and health. These can impact the body so profoundly as to permanently alter the epigenetic profile of an individual. We also present a comprehensive new hypothesis of how these diverse environmental factors cause both direct and indirect epigenetic changes and how this knowledge can ultimately be used to improve personalized medicine.

    Here’s one on epigenetic responses to childhood violence exposure.

    https://moffittcaspi.com/sites/moffittcaspi.com/files/field/publication_uploads/G_Mill_Childhood_violence_ex%20changes_April_2012.pdf

    The most well-known example on the effects of epigenetics across generations is from the Dutch famine in the mid 40s. Low birth weight babies persisted for two generations after the famine.

    https://academic.oup.com/humupd/article/21/2/194/785656/Environmental-epigenetic-inheritance-through

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    Interesting, here it persists for two generations do you know if it persisted any longer?

    Also, we hear about epigenetics acting for the worse. Do epigenetics act for the better in some cases? Have you heard of something like that?
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  • @szopen

    if you’re socially adjusted and you know that some consider a word offensive, you don’t use it
     
    So you are now saying that the fact that some people would complain about the word, WOULD in fact be a matter of concern for me - despite before you said you said I shouldnt care about some foreign people trying to change the meaning of words in my native language.

    As for your son, how would you know he’s losing a job to affirmative action?
     
    Why take the risks?

    Of course I can, just like your own quote says.
     

    A person who says one day he can be French and then another day he would just decide to become Pole? No, I doubt it.

    Let’s not even talk about your absurd familism analogy.
     
    What's absurd about that? Polish nation is a family, and this is still the prevalent thinking here despite some leftist trying to impose western sense of "nationality", alien to our tradition.

    If I moved to Poland, I’d find a local chapter and give a Polish voice to this effort.
     
    That the one more reason not to allow you to become Polish citizen, as you once again seem like one of those globalist folks. The immigrants usually are more to the left than natives, in France, UK and USA. They also tend to respect less local traditions, vote more for the left and they believe in multiculturalism. Why should I import immigrant, which would most likely vote for parties I don't like, and espouse ideas I don't like, and will be used by leftists to advance their ideas?

    Once again, it's my right to decide who will become part of my family. I do not have to explain why I don't agree for someone to join my family.

    As for my activity, sorry, it's not of your business, especially, that on internet everyone can declare anything. I do not wish to resign from my anonymity to prove something and why would you believe in anything I wrote about myself with me bein anonymous. I am involved in local and patriotic organisations, though.

    Hundreds of thousands of Poles have become French in their heart and been accepted as such so why not the opposite?
     

    In theory, yes and I already wrote that anyone could become Pole - it's just I doubt you could based on what you have written above. Also, I have written above that one thing is accept 10 imigrants, hundred, and another thing is to accept hundreds of thousands. We are ethnically homogenous country and I like it to stay that way.

    ALso, it depends on kind of immigrant. Ukrainians will assimilate faster than French, catholic Spaniards faster than Nigerians, and catholic Nigerians faster than muslim Turks.


    how do you pronounce the others?
     
    ą is nasal "o". "ę" is nasal e. ó is just u and is pronounced "oo" like in "book" or "cook". Both "sz" and "ś" are rendered in ENglish as "sh", just as both "cz" and "ć" are rendered as "ch". "ś", "ź", "ć" and "ń" are palatalised, soft versions of s, z,c,n. "Ł" is "w" as in wind. "rz" and "ż" are the same sound nowadays, except some dialects, and are rendered in English usually as "zh".

    basicaly you have voiced-invoiced-soft voiced-soft invoiced- "noisy" voiced- "noisy invoiced(szumiący, I forget the proper english term) sequence:
    Z-S-Ź-Ś-Ż-SZ
    DZ-C-DŹ-Ć-DŻ-CZ
    You can find the examples of pronounciation on youtube, but I was told by some English speakers they do not hear the difference between sz-ś and cz-ć (same as when I try to grasp the differences between some English vowels).

    Actually, Polish spelling is very easy, and has only few exceptions. Every word can be read only in one way. Writing is a bit harder, because of historical reasons: we still use "ch" and "h" and "rz-ż" despite the sounds are nowadays the same, there are general rules but they have exceptions.

    So you are now saying that the fact that some people would complain about the word, WOULD in fact be a matter of concern for me – despite before you said you said I shouldnt care about some foreign people trying to change the meaning of words in my native language.

    It’s a matter of acceptability, use any word that’s acceptable, don’t use them that have become unacceptable in the mainstream. It’s simple no?

    One guy complaining about one word is not the same as society agreeing it’s not a good word to use in public. I understand what this guy thought, he discovered this word and understood it translated as Negro in English (I doubt it’s as offensive as nigger) and since he’s a journalist, he decided to advance his career against this word. But what happened next? Did the word actually become out of favor? If yes you know it’s not the best word to use if you want to avoid controversy. Or did Poles keep on using them without negative connotations as they always did? If yes, keep on using it as you’ve always done.

    Just one guy complaining about a word that no one uses maliciously is not something to care about. I call gypsies “manouches”, the most politically word in French is “Gens du Voyage” so it’s the word I’d use in a public speech, but I surely wouldn’t called a racist for saying “manouche”, some people would say it’s not the best choice, I’d simply reply I had no bad intentions and there is no way I’d lose my job on that. Like no American would lose a job for saying Negro.

    Why take the risks?

    Why not? Imagine your son marries a black woman, would you like their family to be poorer because his wife’s skin color prevents her from getting a job?

    A person who says one day he can be French and then another day he would just decide to become Pole? No, I doubt it.

    I’m certainly not considering becoming Pole or any ethnicity overnight. But if my girlfriend was a Pole and we moved to Poland, I’d gradually become a Pole whether I want it or not.

    What’s absurd about that? Polish nation is a family, and this is still the prevalent thinking here despite some leftist trying to impose western sense of “nationality”, alien to our tradition.

    Oh really? And are those leftists part of the family or does the family only include conservatives?

    That the one more reason not to allow you to become Polish citizen, as you once again seem like one of those globalist folks.

    My superficial understanding of Polish history tells me that Poland is in great need of this global peace and understanding for which I stand. If the situation gets out of control with Russia as it has often done in the past, and that Poles have to flee Poland en mass as they have often done, it’s people like me that you’ll have to thank for the hospitality and facilitating peace negotiations.

    Why should I import immigrant, which would most likely vote for parties I don’t like, and espouse ideas I don’t like, and will be used by leftists to advance their ideas?

    You can just as well help them sharing your patriotism instead of being part of the reason they side with the left.

    As for my activity, sorry, it’s not of your business, especially, that on internet everyone can declare anything. I do not wish to resign from my anonymity to prove something and why would you believe in anything I wrote about myself with me bein anonymous. I am involved in local and patriotic organisations, though.

    No problem, it was partly a rhetoric question. All I wanted to say is that those nationalists who scream their love of their country (or most often hatred of others) are rarely those who actually work for the well being of their fellow citizens besides working, paying taxes and obeying laws.

    Also, I have written above that one thing is accept 10 imigrants, hundred, and another thing is to accept hundreds of thousands. We are ethnically homogenous country and I like it to stay that way.

    ALso, it depends on kind of immigrant. Ukrainians will assimilate faster than French, catholic Spaniards faster than Nigerians, and catholic Nigerians faster than muslim Turks.

    That’s your opinion, many Poles “your family”, probably do not share it.

    Thank you for the linguistic clarification, not sure I got it all though.

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  • @RaceRealist88
    Epigenetic effects would show up as 'genetic', when they're really not due to DNA methylization (it'd thusly be an environmental effect). I know there are people strongly against epigenetics (HBDers, right wingers, etc), but I think there is something to it. Remember, it's a new field. I linked some papers on rethinking the Modern Synthesis, and epigenetics is kinda the forefront of the rethink/replacement of the Modern Synthesis.

    I just saw this book published about the Holocaust and epigenetics as well.

    Yes there is something to epigenetics. I thought it interesting and important enough that I took an online class about it a few years ago. The question is how will it show up in the studies? I suspect it will be seen more between cohorts because environments tend to have a uniform variation over time (perhaps related to the Flynn effect?).

    A useful example to think about is the disease PKU. The root cause is completely genetic. Whether or not it manifests depends on environment–it can be dealt with through diet. Assuming reasonably uniform environments, say in England which introduced screening around 1960: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18275669
    I would expect to see the following:
    pre-screening: looked completely genetic (the diet is not one you would hit on accidentally and the damage is done early)
    post-screening: don’t see it at all (manifesting)
    between those generations we see the large environmental component

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    • Replies: @RaceRealist88

    Yes there is something to epigenetics. I thought it interesting and important enough that I took an online class about it a few years ago. The question is how will it show up in the studies? I suspect it will be seen more between cohorts because environments tend to have a uniform variation over time (perhaps related to the Flynn effect?).
     
    It'd come up as genetic despite being inherited through environmental factors of parents/grandparents/etc.

    pre-screening: looked completely genetic (the diet is not one you would hit on accidentally and the damage is done early)
     
    Right. But in the case of epigenetic factors, it'd be environmental despite 'looking genetic'.

    The whole of the intelligent system instructs the genes what to do; genes don't instruct the system what to do. Recall back to our discussion on holism (which I'll get to soon) and how the whole needs to be looked at, not part A or part B on its own.

    Read these:

    Rocking the foundations of molecular genetics

    Replace the Modern Synthesis (Neo-Darwinism): An Interview With Denis Noble

    Physiology is rocking the foundations of evolutionary biology

    Note that this environmental source of variation [epigenetic variation] will appear in the behavioral genetics twin-study as genetic variation: quite probably another way in which heritability estimates are distorted. (Richardson, 2017: 129)

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  • @Jm8
    "Regarding epigenetics, the thing which I think has to be asked is: where would it appear in the various forms of inheritance estimation? My understanding is that in twin studies it would be seen in the non-shared environment grab bag. What that implies is even if it turns out to be relevant in a meaningful way (in terms of percent variance explained) it is only taking away from the variance we currently assume is explained by the environment."

    Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but if epigenetic effects can be passed on/inherited (unlike simply environmental effects), then why would they automatically be seem in the component estimated to be non-genetic (or environmental)? I would imagine at least some of it could be likely to be (currently) attributed to a genetic component.

    Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but if epigenetic effects can be passed on/inherited (unlike simply environmental effects), then why would they automatically be seem in the component estimated to be non-genetic (or environmental)? I would imagine at least some of it could be likely to be (currently) attributed to a genetic component.

    That’s a reasonable point. It depends on how reliably those markers are inherited given environmental variation. I have not seen good estimates of that. It also depends on how differently distributed throughout the population the markers are. If only 1% of people have a given epigenetic configuration (or a sufficiently unusual one) that is probably not going to affect variance explained much.

    The other issue is just how much variance do we expect to be accounted for by epigenetics in something like IQ? Given the polygenic nature of IQ it seems to me it is only likely to be a second order effect on the SNP variation itself.

    Epigenetic status has a significant dependence on overall methylation status. I don’t know how much variation there is between individual profiles (e.g. A methylated, B not vs. the reverse) given similar methylation status overall.

    Even if epigenetics has large effects for an individual we will only see them if they show up in a systematic way consistent with genetic transmission. Otherwise I expect them to look like noise in traditional studies.

    Also see later comments.

    Hand waving, I know. We need better data and I have not seen such.

    P.S. There is not enough hard data in this area and I don’t know the literature there is well enough to have a useful extended discussion about this. I’ll probably stop after this round of comments unless there is something compelling to respond to.

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  • @szopen

    Can you quote me where I said this? [the RT and white/black gap]
     
    You haven't, but due to the context where I brought RT, I thought you are discussing about it in order to dismiss RT as any kind of evidence.

    However, I still think even if RT is imperfect, the differences found can be valid.

    It's like measuring temperature changes. You measure temperature at bunch of point. After few years you measure temperature at the same points. Now, you had not measured the exact temperature of the whole area; there maybe were some noise factors influencing temperature at each of the point - so maybe it's the the best idea to get the average of those point as the area temperature. However, it i reasonable to calculate the difference between two such averages and conclude that temperature has decreased/increased, don't you think?


    Isn’t learning/education correlated with ‘g’ though? This is completely relevant to the discussion.
     
    Sure, but here the learning consisted of being shown a correct answer for two seconds.


    I can honestly get behind that idea that IQ tests test the ability to do well in a Western nation (on average of course), and that it’s a surrogate for social class.
     
    How would you explain then that IQ is better predictor than social class?

    I thought you are discussing about it in order to dismiss RT as any kind of evidence.

    I dismiss RT as a whole as a ‘biological correlate’ of ‘g’ due to the trainability of RT.

    However, I still think even if RT is imperfect, the differences found can be valid.

    I disagree. Given the pitfalls and other explanatory factors of the observed variance, how can you think that the “differences found” would be valid, say, in a genetic sense, meaning that on average, those with a faster RT will score higher on IQ tests and therefore RT correlates with ‘intelligence’ or ‘g’ (whatever they are).

    However, it i reasonable to calculate the difference between two such averages and conclude that temperature has decreased/increased, don’t you think?

    I like the analogy, but I still disagree. If there are numerous confounds/other explanations other than the observed variance in ‘g’ other than ‘processing speed’, then it is not a good ‘biological measure’ of ‘g’. Therefore, RT is not a good ‘biological correlate’ of g.

    Also read the paper I linked about RT and IQ being ‘too complicated’ and that ‘revealing a significant correlation depends on various variables (e.g. methodology, data analysis, instrument etc.).’

    http://journals.bmsu.ac.ir/ijmr/index.php/ijmr/article/view/29/72

    There’s too much ‘going on’ to say ‘aha! He has a faster RT, therefore higher ‘processing speed’, therefore is more likely to score higher on IQ tests and be ‘intelligent’ (whatever that is)!!’

    Sure, but here the learning consisted of being shown a correct answer for two seconds.

    Quoting relevant part:

    Next, the feedback sequence began with a 2 s period during which the screen was blank. A fixation crosshair then appeared centrally for 2.5 s followed by the performance-relevant feedback, which consisted of a green asterisk/high tone (positive feedback) or red asterisk/low tone (negative feedback), presented for 1 s. Another crosshair then was presented for 2.5 s, allowing students to prepare for the learning-relevant feedback, which consisted of the correct answer to the question, presented in white for 2 s. This information appeared regardless of whether the students’ initial answer had been correct or incorrect.

    This first portion of the experiment concluded when the student had completed a minimum of 10 trials in all conditions (described below), or had been tested for 3 h, whichever came first. The EEG cap was then removed. After ∼8 min, the student returned to the computer to begin the second phase, which consisted of a surprise retest on all the questions they had answered incorrectly at the first test. Only at the start of the retest were students told that the questions they would be answering were those they had initially gotten wrong. During debriefing, all participants reported being surprised about the retest.

    How would you explain then that IQ is better predictor than social class?

    IQ better predictor than what? Citation?

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    • Replies: @szopen
    [the learning consisted of being shown a correct answer for two seconds.] Alright, there was also "wrong!" or "ok!" indication being shown for 1s, so it's three seconds overall, not two. Come on.

    [ IQ is better predictor than social class?] IQ better predictor than what? Citation?
     
    SES

    First, "Intelligence and socioeconomic success: A meta-analytic review of longitudinal research" Strenze 2006: Not surprisingly, all the correlations are positive but, judging by the confidence intervals, several of the correlations (e.g., the one between father's education and education, p=.50, or father's occupation and occupation, p=.35) are significantly smaller than the respective correlations for intelligence. On the other hand, none of the parental variables [including SES - szopen] is a significantly stronger predictor than intelligence. The SES index is themost successful predictor among the parental variables by not being a significantly weaker predictor than intelligence for any of the measures of success. And, in a footnote: With education as the measure of success, there were 15 samples that provided correlations with both IQ and SES index; in 11 of these samples, the correlations were significantly different (pb.05, 2-tailed); 8 of the significant differences were in favor of IQ. With occupation as the measure of success, 14 comparisons were made; 7 of the differences were significant, all in favor of IQ. With income as the measure of success, 12 comparisons were made; 5 were significant, 2 of them in favor of IQ. These results suggest that there seems to be an overall tendency for IQ to be a better predictor but this tendency is not consistently found in every occasion.

    Furthermore, we have this (the original paper is unavailable currently to me, so thats why I link to the blog):

    http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/03/ses-and-iq.html

    Cognitive Epidemiology: With emphasis on untangling cognitive ability and socioeconomic status, Intelligence 37 (2009) 625-633 [...] compares life outcomes of paired siblings (one of each pair required to be in the "normal" reference range of IQ), thereby controlling for SES. As you can see, IQ has a strong impact on education, earnings and social status even after family SES is controlled for.

    The quoted second link quoted in this blog is unfortunately no longer available.

    This thread becomes so long that it messes up with my browser; I am not sure whether I will participate for much longer (after all, I have already wanted to stop the discussion in comment 619, and then, having weak will and all, I couldn't resist a temptation to discuss more).
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  • @Afrosapiens
    According to res' beloved brain drain data 14,54% of the highest skill group, 2,97% of the medium skill one and 5.85% of the lowest skill group have left Poland to other OECD countries between 2006 and 2005. Few must have left as illegals since Poles mostly emigrate to other European Union countries. These things do matter.

    According to my estimates based on education variables, Poland's mean IQ is 98. Knowing that years of education is not a perfect proxy for IQ test performance, Poland's averageIQ can reasonably be anywhere between 93 and 103.

    As for African-Americans, the 90 estimate and a gap reduced by one third of SD is consistent with similarly narrower gaps in education. See the math gap reduced by 40% since 1974, so the gap could even be narrower among the youngest cohorts.

    https://gfbrandenburg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/black-white-ach-gap-13yo-math-naep-ltt.png

    Moreover, Flynn's estimate is from the WAIS standardization sample which was meant to be representative, Jensen and Rushton's rebuttals were based on whatever samples they found to make their point. So they're worthless as usual.

    Now, when it comes to epigenetics, my understanding is that the effects only last for a couple of generations after a shock. So both slavery and serfdom are way too far behind to have lasting effects in my opinion. Whatever epigenetic disadvantage that African American have must be from currently living or having recent ancestors like grandparents that lived in violent ghettos.

    Wow, I knew Poland is affected by the brain drain, but I didn’t knew this is this bad.

    However, I think the WW2+communism did more to affect IQ scores of Poland than the recent brain drain.

    As for the gap, notice that on the graph you have kindly presented, all of the reduction happened up til 1986 and then stayed the same. Why then assumption that the gap narrowing continues?

    (note also that Rushton&Jensen rebuttal is also based on NAEP data :D )

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens

    However, I think the WW2+communism did more to affect IQ scores of Poland than the recent brain drain.
     
    Maybe, I can't tell. But at the same time, many poor Poles have left to western Europe and the Americas before WW2, that could have removed many lower IQ people too. French people of Polish ancestry are still mostly working-class, lower-middle class. There are no stats but I know that names that sound Eastern and Southern European are rare in the French upper class.

    As for the gap, notice that on the graph you have kindly presented, all of the reduction happened up til 1986 and then stayed the same. Why then assumption that the gap narrowing continues?
     
    Notice how the gap was reduced by 5 points between 1999 and 2004. Then they changed the assessment method and the gap narrowed by two points between 2004 and 2012, that's a 6.66% drop in 8 years so it's a sign of ongoing progress.

    https://gfbrandenburg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/black-white-reading-naep-ltt-gaps-9-year-olds.png

    Similar trend in reading, which is apparently more g-loaded.

    (note also that Rushton&Jensen rebuttal is also based on NAEP data :D )
     
    These guys always cook the books.
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  • @Afrosapiens

    One can certainly try.
     
    Not really, people say and think whatever they want in private. And if one word is not acceptable in public, they use bywords anyway.

    Sure, and then why day I will lose my job because I wrote “murzyn” in my work, or because my son won’t get a job because some idiot will decide that we need affirmative action for blacks. No, thanks. Prevention is the best.
     
    Look, if you're socially adjusted and you know that some consider a word offensive, you don't use it. Would you use "Bitch"? Doesn't Polish language have derogatory terms for people from some regions in the country, or for some social classes? If yes, you know how not to use the word in public, so there is no reason that it doesn't apply to an anti-black word.

    As for your son, how would you know he's losing a job to affirmative action? Affirmative action in the US is not something for blacks, it's something for minorities and women of all races, and if things become similar to the US, your son is more likely to miss a job opportunity because it's been taken by a white woman thanks to affirmative action.


    No. First, on more irrevelant note, the law in Poland is decided by POlish citizens and can be changed by Polish citizens. So I am more entitled to decide than you (if we were talking about citizenship).
     
    Sure, but we're equal before Polish law, so as long as the law stays the same, you don't decide more than me. But you have the power to change this law that I don't have.

    I specifically stated “Pole” and “Polish citizenship” are two different things. The fact that despite I clearly stated that there is a difference, and still you insist on citizenship laws means you CANT be Pole. By passing some test you can become Polish citizen, but not Pole. Fight for what we fight, love what we love, praise our heroes, remember our history, treat our ancestors as your ancestors.
     
    Of course I can, just like your own quote says.

    But it’s not just about personally feeling that you want to be Pole, but also about being accepted as a Pole. Like with love, it’s not enough to declare “we are in love”. The second person must agree too.
     
    Just because you wouldn't accept me as a Pole doesn't mean no one would. I can marry a Pole, have Pole friends and colleagues, they can all accept me as a Pole or just waste no time putting labels on me. So would many strangers.

    Calling fundamental human rights (of nation self-determination) tribalism is not an argument. A nation is a family. It’s up to the family to decide who is the member of the family and calling it “familism” won’t change it.
     
    There is no such thing in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Tribalism is a human right that you invented, it's your own little privilege. Let's not even talk about your absurd familism analogy. What do you do for the Polish nation besides paying taxes and obeying the laws (which every resident can do). Are you in some associations? In some unions? What do you do for Poland that I couldn't do if I wanted to become a Pole?

    I'm Rotary Club member, that's one way I represent France in the march for global peace and understanding. If I moved to Poland, I'd find a local chapter and give a Polish voice to this effort. What do you for your country? If you're just claiming your love from your armchair, you're not being very productive.


    I must also say that when you causally declare that today you are French, but tomorrow you can decide to be Pole, that does not make me open to the idea that you actually could be Pole.
     
    Oh believe me, I have no such intention. But if my life had pushed me in this direction, I could. Hundreds of thousands of Poles have become French in their heart and been accepted as such so why not the opposite?

    French “chopin” without nasal vowel. The foreigners usually have problems with distinguishing between “sz” and “ś”, “cz” and “ć”. I met a doctor from Senegal, very nice guy, living here I think for two decades or so, but still pronouncing all “sz” as soft “ś”. His son is Pole, no doubt about that, but his father is not, no doubt about that.
     
    Thanks, and how do you pronounce the others? Polish always looked unreadable to me.

    Oh believe me, I have no such intention. But if my life had pushed me in this direction, I could. Hundreds of thousands of Poles have become French in their heart and been accepted as such so why not the opposite?

    Do not forget who you are. Do not forget where the discussion started. It was my supposition that external phenotypic differences like the color of the skin makes a complete and successful assimilation impossible in mono-ethnic society due to many processes. I wrote about the critical role of mimicry (#722) in the process of assimilation which white Frenchmen, just like the Poles in France, can resort to in Poland, so they unlike you can have a good shot at true assimilation with a minimal impact on the larger society. For you and other x-Africans to succeed in assimilation Poland would have to retool itself from the mono-ethnic society to the multi-ethnic society with all its drawbacks. This pure chutzpah on your or Okechukwu’s part, (who goes even further by arguing that this retooling will make Europeans societies better because it will save Europeans from themselves) to make such demands.

    The discussion is about your and Okechukwu skin color. It is not about your brains or IQ or chess skills or religion or sanitary habits. My argument was that skin color is a sufficient factor to sow the discord and initiate transformations in the monochromatic society. The transformation will lead to invention of racial identities and stratifications and clusterization along the racial lines. Racial theories will be imported from the most rabid Anglo-Saxon sources and the Nation of Islam megalomaniacal ignoramuses. Does Poland really need it?

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    I have become fully French while black (in my heart and in the eyes of those who know me), I can become fully Pole likewise.
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  • @szopen

    Poland’s mean IQ is something like 95,
     
    Actually, that's hard to say. The numbers I saw for my home country average IQ range from 94 to 107. Lynns estimation from 2002 was 99, and from 2012 was, IIRC 96. Rindermann gives 97, Weiss - 94 based on old PISA (but Poland went up in recent PISA studies). The "90" given for African American (it's from Nisbett and Flynn, am i right?) is very controversial and was debated; Rushton and Jensen 2010 gave the mean IQ for 17 years-old as 81. So, yeah, if you will take the lowest reported national Polish IQ, and the highest reported for blacks, your argument would make sense.

    Of course, you would have to forget that actually the argument is that almost 3/4 of Poles were serfs, elites were massacred during WW2 (during German intelligenzaktions and Soviet executions), and serf descendants today are not all in lower classes. And, obviously, that would require higher variance than in countries without serfdom or where serfdom was abolished earlier, which is not the case.

    Or maybe I amn wrong? I suppose that if there was a factor which influenced in different proportion different parts of a population, then it should increase the variance. Am I wrong?

    I think I have bunch of studies in POlish in my hdd, but they often give raw scores, when give IQ results they use different scale (Catells with SD-24) and are not standarized to the so called "Greenwich IQ".

    According to res’ beloved brain drain data 14,54% of the highest skill group, 2,97% of the medium skill one and 5.85% of the lowest skill group have left Poland to other OECD countries between 2006 and 2005. Few must have left as illegals since Poles mostly emigrate to other European Union countries. These things do matter.

    According to my estimates based on education variables, Poland’s mean IQ is 98. Knowing that years of education is not a perfect proxy for IQ test performance, Poland’s averageIQ can reasonably be anywhere between 93 and 103.

    As for African-Americans, the 90 estimate and a gap reduced by one third of SD is consistent with similarly narrower gaps in education. See the math gap reduced by 40% since 1974, so the gap could even be narrower among the youngest cohorts.

    Moreover, Flynn’s estimate is from the WAIS standardization sample which was meant to be representative, Jensen and Rushton’s rebuttals were based on whatever samples they found to make their point. So they’re worthless as usual.

    Now, when it comes to epigenetics, my understanding is that the effects only last for a couple of generations after a shock. So both slavery and serfdom are way too far behind to have lasting effects in my opinion. Whatever epigenetic disadvantage that African American have must be from currently living or having recent ancestors like grandparents that lived in violent ghettos.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    Wow, I knew Poland is affected by the brain drain, but I didn't knew this is this bad.

    However, I think the WW2+communism did more to affect IQ scores of Poland than the recent brain drain.

    As for the gap, notice that on the graph you have kindly presented, all of the reduction happened up til 1986 and then stayed the same. Why then assumption that the gap narrowing continues?

    (note also that Rushton&Jensen rebuttal is also based on NAEP data :D )
    , @RaceRealist88

    Now, when it comes to epigenetics, my understanding is that the effects only last for a couple of generations after a shock. So both slavery and serfdom are way too far behind to have lasting effects in my opinion. Whatever epigenetic disadvantage that African American have must be from currently living or having recent ancestors like grandparents that lived in violent ghettos.
     
    Here's a paper on epigenetics across the human lifespan:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4207041/

    For example, exposure to pharmaceutical and toxic chemicals, diet, stress, exercise, and other environmental factors are capable of eliciting positive or negative epigenetic modifications with lasting effects on development, metabolism and health. These can impact the body so profoundly as to permanently alter the epigenetic profile of an individual. We also present a comprehensive new hypothesis of how these diverse environmental factors cause both direct and indirect epigenetic changes and how this knowledge can ultimately be used to improve personalized medicine.

    Here's one on epigenetic responses to childhood violence exposure.

    https://moffittcaspi.com/sites/moffittcaspi.com/files/field/publication_uploads/G_Mill_Childhood_violence_ex%20changes_April_2012.pdf

    The most well-known example on the effects of epigenetics across generations is from the Dutch famine in the mid 40s. Low birth weight babies persisted for two generations after the famine.

    https://academic.oup.com/humupd/article/21/2/194/785656/Environmental-epigenetic-inheritance-through
    , @phil
    1. Arthur Jensen was a meticulously honest person. You are just demonizing someone whose research did not conform to your ideology. When Jensen began his research on ethnic differences in IQ, he believed that genetic differences did not account for much of the differences in average IQ across groups.

    2. Dickens and Flynn also found that the average IQ of 24 year-old African-Americans is 83.1. The typically finding in behavioral genetics is that heritability increases with age. So it is possible, for environmental reasons, that some of the score gaps at younger ages have narrowed, while (for genetic reasons) the score gap in adulthood has stayed about the same. As you may know, the score gap at age 7 in the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study was relatively small, but at age 17 there was again a big difference in average scores across groups.

    3. You might actually be handsome, but we are awaiting reports from independent referees.

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  • @Afrosapiens
    That's because some people have fought for the privilege of claiming property on a land. Not because of diversity itself. The Balkans have been harmoniously ruled by multicultural, multi-confessional states for centuries until nationalism/tribalism showed its ugly head and spread war and violence.

    BUt the “nationalism/tribalism” usually does raise “its ugly head” quite regularly with history, starting with medieval times (e.g. in my country in XIV century). It’s not like if it would just magically disappear. SO why risk it, especially if the ethnic diversity main contribution supposed to be the fact that the people will be less sensitive to ethnic diversity?

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens

    BUt the “nationalism/tribalism” usually does raise “its ugly head” quite regularly with history, starting with medieval times (e.g. in my country in XIV century). It’s not like if it would just magically disappear. SO why risk it, especially if the ethnic diversity main contribution supposed to be the fact that the people will be less sensitive to ethnic diversity?
     
    Only if leaders play with it and masses agree to fall for it. But the mass can also be taught not to fall for it. France didn't fall for islamophobia after a series of terrorist attacks, because we understood it was the dumbest thing to do. Those on the far right that tried to prey on the situation were badly beaten in the last presidential election. It's a better proof of intelligence than any national IQ estimate.
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  • @res

    “I am very hesitant to accept any explanation involving epigenetics at the time. It would have to last few generations…”

    That’s understandable, since it’s not yet well understood. I myself am still uncertain, though I suspect it figures in as a factor (along with the cultural)—but hopefully more information will be available in not too long.
     
    Regarding epigenetics, the thing which I think has to be asked is: where would it appear in the various forms of inheritance estimation? My understanding is that in twin studies it would be seen in the non-shared environment grab bag. What that implies is even if it turns out to be relevant in a meaningful way (in terms of percent variance explained) it is only taking away from the variance we currently assume is explained by the environment.

    The heritability studies place some serious limits on how much is non-genetic. And that is excluding the effect of measurement error (see SSC link below).

    The meme of epigenetics somehow significantly reducing the importance of genetics is simply wrong.

    Epigenetics (and other interesting aspects of non-shared environment) is discussed at SSC: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/03/16/non-shared-environment-doesnt-just-mean-schools-and-peers/

    Epigenetic effects would show up as ‘genetic’, when they’re really not due to DNA methylization (it’d thusly be an environmental effect). I know there are people strongly against epigenetics (HBDers, right wingers, etc), but I think there is something to it. Remember, it’s a new field. I linked some papers on rethinking the Modern Synthesis, and epigenetics is kinda the forefront of the rethink/replacement of the Modern Synthesis.

    I just saw this book published about the Holocaust and epigenetics as well.

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    • Replies: @res
    Yes there is something to epigenetics. I thought it interesting and important enough that I took an online class about it a few years ago. The question is how will it show up in the studies? I suspect it will be seen more between cohorts because environments tend to have a uniform variation over time (perhaps related to the Flynn effect?).

    A useful example to think about is the disease PKU. The root cause is completely genetic. Whether or not it manifests depends on environment--it can be dealt with through diet. Assuming reasonably uniform environments, say in England which introduced screening around 1960: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18275669
    I would expect to see the following:
    pre-screening: looked completely genetic (the diet is not one you would hit on accidentally and the damage is done early)
    post-screening: don't see it at all (manifesting)
    between those generations we see the large environmental component
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  • @res

    “I am very hesitant to accept any explanation involving epigenetics at the time. It would have to last few generations…”

    That’s understandable, since it’s not yet well understood. I myself am still uncertain, though I suspect it figures in as a factor (along with the cultural)—but hopefully more information will be available in not too long.
     
    Regarding epigenetics, the thing which I think has to be asked is: where would it appear in the various forms of inheritance estimation? My understanding is that in twin studies it would be seen in the non-shared environment grab bag. What that implies is even if it turns out to be relevant in a meaningful way (in terms of percent variance explained) it is only taking away from the variance we currently assume is explained by the environment.

    The heritability studies place some serious limits on how much is non-genetic. And that is excluding the effect of measurement error (see SSC link below).

    The meme of epigenetics somehow significantly reducing the importance of genetics is simply wrong.

    Epigenetics (and other interesting aspects of non-shared environment) is discussed at SSC: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/03/16/non-shared-environment-doesnt-just-mean-schools-and-peers/

    “Regarding epigenetics, the thing which I think has to be asked is: where would it appear in the various forms of inheritance estimation? My understanding is that in twin studies it would be seen in the non-shared environment grab bag. What that implies is even if it turns out to be relevant in a meaningful way (in terms of percent variance explained) it is only taking away from the variance we currently assume is explained by the environment.”

    Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but if epigenetic effects can be passed on/inherited (unlike simply environmental effects), then why would they automatically be seem in the component estimated to be non-genetic (or environmental)? I would imagine at least some of it could be likely to be (currently) attributed to a genetic component.

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    • Replies: @res

    Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but if epigenetic effects can be passed on/inherited (unlike simply environmental effects), then why would they automatically be seem in the component estimated to be non-genetic (or environmental)? I would imagine at least some of it could be likely to be (currently) attributed to a genetic component.
     
    That's a reasonable point. It depends on how reliably those markers are inherited given environmental variation. I have not seen good estimates of that. It also depends on how differently distributed throughout the population the markers are. If only 1% of people have a given epigenetic configuration (or a sufficiently unusual one) that is probably not going to affect variance explained much.

    The other issue is just how much variance do we expect to be accounted for by epigenetics in something like IQ? Given the polygenic nature of IQ it seems to me it is only likely to be a second order effect on the SNP variation itself.

    Epigenetic status has a significant dependence on overall methylation status. I don't know how much variation there is between individual profiles (e.g. A methylated, B not vs. the reverse) given similar methylation status overall.

    Even if epigenetics has large effects for an individual we will only see them if they show up in a systematic way consistent with genetic transmission. Otherwise I expect them to look like noise in traditional studies.

    Also see later comments.

    Hand waving, I know. We need better data and I have not seen such.

    P.S. There is not enough hard data in this area and I don't know the literature there is well enough to have a useful extended discussion about this. I'll probably stop after this round of comments unless there is something compelling to respond to.
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  • @Afrosapiens

    One can certainly try.
     
    Not really, people say and think whatever they want in private. And if one word is not acceptable in public, they use bywords anyway.

    Sure, and then why day I will lose my job because I wrote “murzyn” in my work, or because my son won’t get a job because some idiot will decide that we need affirmative action for blacks. No, thanks. Prevention is the best.
     
    Look, if you're socially adjusted and you know that some consider a word offensive, you don't use it. Would you use "Bitch"? Doesn't Polish language have derogatory terms for people from some regions in the country, or for some social classes? If yes, you know how not to use the word in public, so there is no reason that it doesn't apply to an anti-black word.

    As for your son, how would you know he's losing a job to affirmative action? Affirmative action in the US is not something for blacks, it's something for minorities and women of all races, and if things become similar to the US, your son is more likely to miss a job opportunity because it's been taken by a white woman thanks to affirmative action.


    No. First, on more irrevelant note, the law in Poland is decided by POlish citizens and can be changed by Polish citizens. So I am more entitled to decide than you (if we were talking about citizenship).
     
    Sure, but we're equal before Polish law, so as long as the law stays the same, you don't decide more than me. But you have the power to change this law that I don't have.

    I specifically stated “Pole” and “Polish citizenship” are two different things. The fact that despite I clearly stated that there is a difference, and still you insist on citizenship laws means you CANT be Pole. By passing some test you can become Polish citizen, but not Pole. Fight for what we fight, love what we love, praise our heroes, remember our history, treat our ancestors as your ancestors.
     
    Of course I can, just like your own quote says.

    But it’s not just about personally feeling that you want to be Pole, but also about being accepted as a Pole. Like with love, it’s not enough to declare “we are in love”. The second person must agree too.
     
    Just because you wouldn't accept me as a Pole doesn't mean no one would. I can marry a Pole, have Pole friends and colleagues, they can all accept me as a Pole or just waste no time putting labels on me. So would many strangers.

    Calling fundamental human rights (of nation self-determination) tribalism is not an argument. A nation is a family. It’s up to the family to decide who is the member of the family and calling it “familism” won’t change it.
     
    There is no such thing in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Tribalism is a human right that you invented, it's your own little privilege. Let's not even talk about your absurd familism analogy. What do you do for the Polish nation besides paying taxes and obeying the laws (which every resident can do). Are you in some associations? In some unions? What do you do for Poland that I couldn't do if I wanted to become a Pole?

    I'm Rotary Club member, that's one way I represent France in the march for global peace and understanding. If I moved to Poland, I'd find a local chapter and give a Polish voice to this effort. What do you for your country? If you're just claiming your love from your armchair, you're not being very productive.


    I must also say that when you causally declare that today you are French, but tomorrow you can decide to be Pole, that does not make me open to the idea that you actually could be Pole.
     
    Oh believe me, I have no such intention. But if my life had pushed me in this direction, I could. Hundreds of thousands of Poles have become French in their heart and been accepted as such so why not the opposite?

    French “chopin” without nasal vowel. The foreigners usually have problems with distinguishing between “sz” and “ś”, “cz” and “ć”. I met a doctor from Senegal, very nice guy, living here I think for two decades or so, but still pronouncing all “sz” as soft “ś”. His son is Pole, no doubt about that, but his father is not, no doubt about that.
     
    Thanks, and how do you pronounce the others? Polish always looked unreadable to me.

    if you’re socially adjusted and you know that some consider a word offensive, you don’t use it

    So you are now saying that the fact that some people would complain about the word, WOULD in fact be a matter of concern for me – despite before you said you said I shouldnt care about some foreign people trying to change the meaning of words in my native language.

    As for your son, how would you know he’s losing a job to affirmative action?

    Why take the risks?

    Of course I can, just like your own quote says.

    A person who says one day he can be French and then another day he would just decide to become Pole? No, I doubt it.

    Let’s not even talk about your absurd familism analogy.

    What’s absurd about that? Polish nation is a family, and this is still the prevalent thinking here despite some leftist trying to impose western sense of “nationality”, alien to our tradition.

    If I moved to Poland, I’d find a local chapter and give a Polish voice to this effort.

    That the one more reason not to allow you to become Polish citizen, as you once again seem like one of those globalist folks. The immigrants usually are more to the left than natives, in France, UK and USA. They also tend to respect less local traditions, vote more for the left and they believe in multiculturalism. Why should I import immigrant, which would most likely vote for parties I don’t like, and espouse ideas I don’t like, and will be used by leftists to advance their ideas?

    Once again, it’s my right to decide who will become part of my family. I do not have to explain why I don’t agree for someone to join my family.

    As for my activity, sorry, it’s not of your business, especially, that on internet everyone can declare anything. I do not wish to resign from my anonymity to prove something and why would you believe in anything I wrote about myself with me bein anonymous. I am involved in local and patriotic organisations, though.

    Hundreds of thousands of Poles have become French in their heart and been accepted as such so why not the opposite?

    In theory, yes and I already wrote that anyone could become Pole – it’s just I doubt you could based on what you have written above. Also, I have written above that one thing is accept 10 imigrants, hundred, and another thing is to accept hundreds of thousands. We are ethnically homogenous country and I like it to stay that way.

    ALso, it depends on kind of immigrant. Ukrainians will assimilate faster than French, catholic Spaniards faster than Nigerians, and catholic Nigerians faster than muslim Turks.

    how do you pronounce the others?

    ą is nasal “o”. “ę” is nasal e. ó is just u and is pronounced “oo” like in “book” or “cook”. Both “sz” and “ś” are rendered in ENglish as “sh”, just as both “cz” and “ć” are rendered as “ch”. “ś”, “ź”, “ć” and “ń” are palatalised, soft versions of s, z,c,n. “Ł” is “w” as in wind. “rz” and “ż” are the same sound nowadays, except some dialects, and are rendered in English usually as “zh”.

    basicaly you have voiced-invoiced-soft voiced-soft invoiced- “noisy” voiced- “noisy invoiced(szumiący, I forget the proper english term) sequence:
    Z-S-Ź-Ś-Ż-SZ
    DZ-C-DŹ-Ć-DŻ-CZ
    You can find the examples of pronounciation on youtube, but I was told by some English speakers they do not hear the difference between sz-ś and cz-ć (same as when I try to grasp the differences between some English vowels).

    Actually, Polish spelling is very easy, and has only few exceptions. Every word can be read only in one way. Writing is a bit harder, because of historical reasons: we still use “ch” and “h” and “rz-ż” despite the sounds are nowadays the same, there are general rules but they have exceptions.

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens

    So you are now saying that the fact that some people would complain about the word, WOULD in fact be a matter of concern for me – despite before you said you said I shouldnt care about some foreign people trying to change the meaning of words in my native language.
     
    It's a matter of acceptability, use any word that's acceptable, don't use them that have become unacceptable in the mainstream. It's simple no?

    One guy complaining about one word is not the same as society agreeing it's not a good word to use in public. I understand what this guy thought, he discovered this word and understood it translated as Negro in English (I doubt it's as offensive as nigger) and since he's a journalist, he decided to advance his career against this word. But what happened next? Did the word actually become out of favor? If yes you know it's not the best word to use if you want to avoid controversy. Or did Poles keep on using them without negative connotations as they always did? If yes, keep on using it as you've always done.

    Just one guy complaining about a word that no one uses maliciously is not something to care about. I call gypsies "manouches", the most politically word in French is "Gens du Voyage" so it's the word I'd use in a public speech, but I surely wouldn't called a racist for saying "manouche", some people would say it's not the best choice, I'd simply reply I had no bad intentions and there is no way I'd lose my job on that. Like no American would lose a job for saying Negro.

    Why take the risks?
     
    Why not? Imagine your son marries a black woman, would you like their family to be poorer because his wife's skin color prevents her from getting a job?

    A person who says one day he can be French and then another day he would just decide to become Pole? No, I doubt it.
     
    I'm certainly not considering becoming Pole or any ethnicity overnight. But if my girlfriend was a Pole and we moved to Poland, I'd gradually become a Pole whether I want it or not.

    What’s absurd about that? Polish nation is a family, and this is still the prevalent thinking here despite some leftist trying to impose western sense of “nationality”, alien to our tradition.
     
    Oh really? And are those leftists part of the family or does the family only include conservatives?

    That the one more reason not to allow you to become Polish citizen, as you once again seem like one of those globalist folks.
     
    My superficial understanding of Polish history tells me that Poland is in great need of this global peace and understanding for which I stand. If the situation gets out of control with Russia as it has often done in the past, and that Poles have to flee Poland en mass as they have often done, it's people like me that you'll have to thank for the hospitality and facilitating peace negotiations.

    Why should I import immigrant, which would most likely vote for parties I don’t like, and espouse ideas I don’t like, and will be used by leftists to advance their ideas?
     
    You can just as well help them sharing your patriotism instead of being part of the reason they side with the left.

    As for my activity, sorry, it’s not of your business, especially, that on internet everyone can declare anything. I do not wish to resign from my anonymity to prove something and why would you believe in anything I wrote about myself with me bein anonymous. I am involved in local and patriotic organisations, though.
     
    No problem, it was partly a rhetoric question. All I wanted to say is that those nationalists who scream their love of their country (or most often hatred of others) are rarely those who actually work for the well being of their fellow citizens besides working, paying taxes and obeying laws.

    Also, I have written above that one thing is accept 10 imigrants, hundred, and another thing is to accept hundreds of thousands. We are ethnically homogenous country and I like it to stay that way.

    ALso, it depends on kind of immigrant. Ukrainians will assimilate faster than French, catholic Spaniards faster than Nigerians, and catholic Nigerians faster than muslim Turks.
     
    That's your opinion, many Poles "your family", probably do not share it.

    Thank you for the linguistic clarification, not sure I got it all though.
    , @utu
    ALso, it depends on kind of immigrant. Ukrainians will assimilate faster than French, catholic Spaniards faster than Nigerians, and catholic Nigerians faster than muslim Turks.

    Nigerians or Turks will assimilate only in narrow sense and still under the condition that you will assimilate to them help them assimilate to you. So together with the Nigerians or Turks you will transform the mono-ethnic society into the multi-ethnic one that is altogether completely different animal that requires lots of daily "assimilations" on your part to function though much lower level than before.

    szopen, your dabbling in HBD and the IQ cult for a Pole is out of your national character. Certainly it does not go with Catholic tradition or mono-ethnic culture. This shit is strictly for the Anglos and by the Anglos. Even Nazis were not really into it. Let them imbibe the toxins of their own creation but you really do not have to be part in it. Snap out of it, man.
    , @utu
    one thing is accept 10 imigrants, hundred, and another thing is to accept hundreds of thousands

    The phrase village idiot is always singular and never plural. Perhaps because two of them could start the Idiots Anti-Defamation league. The villages that boast of not having any idiots may actually have many but hidden by the tinkering with semantics.
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  • @res

    “I am very hesitant to accept any explanation involving epigenetics at the time. It would have to last few generations…”

    That’s understandable, since it’s not yet well understood. I myself am still uncertain, though I suspect it figures in as a factor (along with the cultural)—but hopefully more information will be available in not too long.
     
    Regarding epigenetics, the thing which I think has to be asked is: where would it appear in the various forms of inheritance estimation? My understanding is that in twin studies it would be seen in the non-shared environment grab bag. What that implies is even if it turns out to be relevant in a meaningful way (in terms of percent variance explained) it is only taking away from the variance we currently assume is explained by the environment.

    The heritability studies place some serious limits on how much is non-genetic. And that is excluding the effect of measurement error (see SSC link below).

    The meme of epigenetics somehow significantly reducing the importance of genetics is simply wrong.

    Epigenetics (and other interesting aspects of non-shared environment) is discussed at SSC: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/03/16/non-shared-environment-doesnt-just-mean-schools-and-peers/

    What that implies is even if it turns out to be relevant in a meaningful way (in terms of percent variance explained) it is only taking away from the variance we currently assume is explained by the environment.

    Epigenetic modifications inherited from parents are supposed to show in narrow-sense heritability. Those that happen later in life are part of non-shared environment.

    The meme of epigenetics somehow significantly reducing the importance of genetics is simply wrong.

    No, sorry for your Darwinian fantasies. Ask RaceRealist about those topics, he’s also knowledgeable on the influence of the microbiome and other evolutionary processes that act independently of genes.

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    • Replies: @res

    Epigenetic modifications inherited from parents are supposed to show in narrow-sense heritability. Those that happen later in life are part of non-shared environment.
     
    Citation needed. Most of what I have seen is speculation of the form "epigenetics could show up in narrow-sense heritability given the following conditions..." I have not seen any attempts to quantify how often this actually happens.

    We do know the inheritance is not as complete as for DNA. See studies looking at the epigenetics of discordant twins like this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4931599/
    Thought there are cases where the DNA of MZ twins differ (mostly CNVs it sounds like): https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/identical-twins-genes-are-not-identical/
    I don't know of anyone trying to incorporate that special case into studies.

    It is also important to remember that those inherited epigenetic marks can change later (unlike DNA!).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @szopen

    Diversity actually has a salutary effect as it sensitizes people to the values and traditions of others, making conflict less likely.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

    That’s because some people have fought for the privilege of claiming property on a land. Not because of diversity itself. The Balkans have been harmoniously ruled by multicultural, multi-confessional states for centuries until nationalism/tribalism showed its ugly head and spread war and violence.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    BUt the "nationalism/tribalism" usually does raise "its ugly head" quite regularly with history, starting with medieval times (e.g. in my country in XIV century). It's not like if it would just magically disappear. SO why risk it, especially if the ethnic diversity main contribution supposed to be the fact that the people will be less sensitive to ethnic diversity?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Afrosapiens
    I don't know about epigenetics, but there are things that differentiate African Americans from other black population.

    -The level of violence in their neighborhoods (they are victims of abuse or hear gunshots at night, witness violent death or injury, are subjected to threats and have to be wary on the streets)

    -Single parenthood, step-parents and abandonment which are causes of chronic stress and troubled child-parent relationship

    I have this source saying that exposure to violence decreases IQ:
    http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/191640

    And this one on chronic stress damaging brain structure and connectivity:
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athletes-way/201402/chronic-stress-can-damage-brain-structure-and-connectivity

    As for lower class Poles, they're supposed to have lower IQs than African Americans. Poland's mean IQ is something like 95, African Americans have mean IQs of 90 (for those who believe in the evidence given for a narrowing of the gap in the current generation). And it adds up, African Americans must be on average slightly poorer and less educated than Poles, so they accordingly have a slightly lower average IQ.

    Poland’s mean IQ is something like 95,

    Actually, that’s hard to say. The numbers I saw for my home country average IQ range from 94 to 107. Lynns estimation from 2002 was 99, and from 2012 was, IIRC 96. Rindermann gives 97, Weiss – 94 based on old PISA (but Poland went up in recent PISA studies). The “90″ given for African American (it’s from Nisbett and Flynn, am i right?) is very controversial and was debated; Rushton and Jensen 2010 gave the mean IQ for 17 years-old as 81. So, yeah, if you will take the lowest reported national Polish IQ, and the highest reported for blacks, your argument would make sense.

    Of course, you would have to forget that actually the argument is that almost 3/4 of Poles were serfs, elites were massacred during WW2 (during German intelligenzaktions and Soviet executions), and serf descendants today are not all in lower classes. And, obviously, that would require higher variance than in countries without serfdom or where serfdom was abolished earlier, which is not the case.

    Or maybe I amn wrong? I suppose that if there was a factor which influenced in different proportion different parts of a population, then it should increase the variance. Am I wrong?

    I think I have bunch of studies in POlish in my hdd, but they often give raw scores, when give IQ results they use different scale (Catells with SD-24) and are not standarized to the so called “Greenwich IQ”.

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    According to res' beloved brain drain data 14,54% of the highest skill group, 2,97% of the medium skill one and 5.85% of the lowest skill group have left Poland to other OECD countries between 2006 and 2005. Few must have left as illegals since Poles mostly emigrate to other European Union countries. These things do matter.

    According to my estimates based on education variables, Poland's mean IQ is 98. Knowing that years of education is not a perfect proxy for IQ test performance, Poland's averageIQ can reasonably be anywhere between 93 and 103.

    As for African-Americans, the 90 estimate and a gap reduced by one third of SD is consistent with similarly narrower gaps in education. See the math gap reduced by 40% since 1974, so the gap could even be narrower among the youngest cohorts.

    https://gfbrandenburg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/black-white-ach-gap-13yo-math-naep-ltt.png

    Moreover, Flynn's estimate is from the WAIS standardization sample which was meant to be representative, Jensen and Rushton's rebuttals were based on whatever samples they found to make their point. So they're worthless as usual.

    Now, when it comes to epigenetics, my understanding is that the effects only last for a couple of generations after a shock. So both slavery and serfdom are way too far behind to have lasting effects in my opinion. Whatever epigenetic disadvantage that African American have must be from currently living or having recent ancestors like grandparents that lived in violent ghettos.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Anon

    whites have a tendency to to proclaim themselves masters of the land
     
    Not unique to them.

    They probably wouldn’t mind whites if they come and just mind their own business like everybody else.
     
    They do seem to mind Ugandan Indians, South African and Zimbabwean whites, Muslims in South Sudan, Christians and animists in regular Sudan.

    Not unique to them.

    No, but it’s uniquely prevalent in whites.

    They do seem to mind Ugandan Indians, South African and Zimbabwean whites, Muslims in South Sudan, Christians and animists in regular Sudan.

    There is tribalism and ethnic conflict in Africa like elsewhere when leaders decide to use differences as an instrument to their politics. Otherwise, regular people are not insulting and brutalizing each other on the streets just for this reason.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @szopen

    And how can one even remove a word? (etc)
     
    One can certainly try.

    you just need to not care about it if you don’t feel concerned.
     
    Sure, and then why day I will lose my job because I wrote "murzyn" in my work, or because my son won't get a job because some idiot will decide that we need affirmative action for blacks. No, thanks. Prevention is the best.

    So you don’t decide more than me, only the law decides.
     
    No. First, on more irrevelant note, the law in Poland is decided by POlish citizens and can be changed by Polish citizens. So I am more entitled to decide than you (if we were talking about citizenship).

    But, of course, you seemingly had not read my comment at all.

    That’s not for you to decide. Besides, “Pole” does not mean “Polish citizen”. Not all Polish citizens are Poles. Not all Poles are Polish citizens.
     

    I wasn't talking about citizenship, but about becoming Pole. I specifically stated "Pole" and "Polish citizenship" are two different things. The fact that despite I clearly stated that there is a difference, and still you insist on citizenship laws means you CANT be Pole. By passing some test you can become Polish citizen, but not Pole. Fight for what we fight, love what we love, praise our heroes, remember our history, treat our ancestors as your ancestors.

    Sure, to quote Lutosławski, a theoretician on Polish nationalism:

    A Negro or Indian can become Polish if he will accept a spiritual heritage of Polish nation, enclosed in it its literature, art, politics, customs, if he will have unbreakable will to contribute to the national development of Polish nation
     

    But it's not just about personally feeling that you want to be Pole, but also about being accepted as a Pole. Like with love, it's not enough to declare "we are in love". The second person must agree too.

    Tribalism is a privilege, not a human right.
     
    Calling fundamental human rights (of nation self-determination) tribalism is not an argument. A nation is a family. It's up to the family to decide who is the member of the family and calling it "familism" won't change it.

    I must also say that when you causally declare that today you are French, but tomorrow you can decide to be Pole, that does not make me open to the idea that you actually could be Pole.


    By the way, how would you write “szopen” in English
     
    French "chopin" without nasal vowel. The foreigners usually have problems with distinguishing between "sz" and "ś", "cz" and "ć". I met a doctor from Senegal, very nice guy, living here I think for two decades or so, but still pronouncing all "sz" as soft "ś". His son is Pole, no doubt about that, but his father is not, no doubt about that.

    One can certainly try.

    Not really, people say and think whatever they want in private. And if one word is not acceptable in public, they use bywords anyway.

    Sure, and then why day I will lose my job because I wrote “murzyn” in my work, or because my son won’t get a job because some idiot will decide that we need affirmative action for blacks. No, thanks. Prevention is the best.

    Look, if you’re socially adjusted and you know that some consider a word offensive, you don’t use it. Would you use “Bitch”? Doesn’t Polish language have derogatory terms for people from some regions in the country, or for some social classes? If yes, you know how not to use the word in public, so there is no reason that it doesn’t apply to an anti-black word.

    As for your son, how would you know he’s losing a job to affirmative action? Affirmative action in the US is not something for blacks, it’s something for minorities and women of all races, and if things become similar to the US, your son is more likely to miss a job opportunity because it’s been taken by a white woman thanks to affirmative action.

    No. First, on more irrevelant note, the law in Poland is decided by POlish citizens and can be changed by Polish citizens. So I am more entitled to decide than you (if we were talking about citizenship).

    Sure, but we’re equal before Polish law, so as long as the law stays the same, you don’t decide more than me. But you have the power to change this law that I don’t have.

    I specifically stated “Pole” and “Polish citizenship” are two different things. The fact that despite I clearly stated that there is a difference, and still you insist on citizenship laws means you CANT be Pole. By passing some test you can become Polish citizen, but not Pole. Fight for what we fight, love what we love, praise our heroes, remember our history, treat our ancestors as your ancestors.

    Of course I can, just like your own quote says.

    But it’s not just about personally feeling that you want to be Pole, but also about being accepted as a Pole. Like with love, it’s not enough to declare “we are in love”. The second person must agree too.

    Just because you wouldn’t accept me as a Pole doesn’t mean no one would. I can marry a Pole, have Pole friends and colleagues, they can all accept me as a Pole or just waste no time putting labels on me. So would many strangers.

    Calling fundamental human rights (of nation self-determination) tribalism is not an argument. A nation is a family. It’s up to the family to decide who is the member of the family and calling it “familism” won’t change it.

    There is no such thing in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Tribalism is a human right that you invented, it’s your own little privilege. Let’s not even talk about your absurd familism analogy. What do you do for the Polish nation besides paying taxes and obeying the laws (which every resident can do). Are you in some associations? In some unions? What do you do for Poland that I couldn’t do if I wanted to become a Pole?

    I’m Rotary Club member, that’s one way I represent France in the march for global peace and understanding. If I moved to Poland, I’d find a local chapter and give a Polish voice to this effort. What do you for your country? If you’re just claiming your love from your armchair, you’re not being very productive.

    I must also say that when you causally declare that today you are French, but tomorrow you can decide to be Pole, that does not make me open to the idea that you actually could be Pole.

    Oh believe me, I have no such intention. But if my life had pushed me in this direction, I could. Hundreds of thousands of Poles have become French in their heart and been accepted as such so why not the opposite?

    French “chopin” without nasal vowel. The foreigners usually have problems with distinguishing between “sz” and “ś”, “cz” and “ć”. I met a doctor from Senegal, very nice guy, living here I think for two decades or so, but still pronouncing all “sz” as soft “ś”. His son is Pole, no doubt about that, but his father is not, no doubt about that.

    Thanks, and how do you pronounce the others? Polish always looked unreadable to me.

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    • Replies: @szopen

    if you’re socially adjusted and you know that some consider a word offensive, you don’t use it
     
    So you are now saying that the fact that some people would complain about the word, WOULD in fact be a matter of concern for me - despite before you said you said I shouldnt care about some foreign people trying to change the meaning of words in my native language.

    As for your son, how would you know he’s losing a job to affirmative action?
     
    Why take the risks?

    Of course I can, just like your own quote says.
     

    A person who says one day he can be French and then another day he would just decide to become Pole? No, I doubt it.

    Let’s not even talk about your absurd familism analogy.
     
    What's absurd about that? Polish nation is a family, and this is still the prevalent thinking here despite some leftist trying to impose western sense of "nationality", alien to our tradition.

    If I moved to Poland, I’d find a local chapter and give a Polish voice to this effort.
     
    That the one more reason not to allow you to become Polish citizen, as you once again seem like one of those globalist folks. The immigrants usually are more to the left than natives, in France, UK and USA. They also tend to respect less local traditions, vote more for the left and they believe in multiculturalism. Why should I import immigrant, which would most likely vote for parties I don't like, and espouse ideas I don't like, and will be used by leftists to advance their ideas?

    Once again, it's my right to decide who will become part of my family. I do not have to explain why I don't agree for someone to join my family.

    As for my activity, sorry, it's not of your business, especially, that on internet everyone can declare anything. I do not wish to resign from my anonymity to prove something and why would you believe in anything I wrote about myself with me bein anonymous. I am involved in local and patriotic organisations, though.

    Hundreds of thousands of Poles have become French in their heart and been accepted as such so why not the opposite?
     

    In theory, yes and I already wrote that anyone could become Pole - it's just I doubt you could based on what you have written above. Also, I have written above that one thing is accept 10 imigrants, hundred, and another thing is to accept hundreds of thousands. We are ethnically homogenous country and I like it to stay that way.

    ALso, it depends on kind of immigrant. Ukrainians will assimilate faster than French, catholic Spaniards faster than Nigerians, and catholic Nigerians faster than muslim Turks.


    how do you pronounce the others?
     
    ą is nasal "o". "ę" is nasal e. ó is just u and is pronounced "oo" like in "book" or "cook". Both "sz" and "ś" are rendered in ENglish as "sh", just as both "cz" and "ć" are rendered as "ch". "ś", "ź", "ć" and "ń" are palatalised, soft versions of s, z,c,n. "Ł" is "w" as in wind. "rz" and "ż" are the same sound nowadays, except some dialects, and are rendered in English usually as "zh".

    basicaly you have voiced-invoiced-soft voiced-soft invoiced- "noisy" voiced- "noisy invoiced(szumiący, I forget the proper english term) sequence:
    Z-S-Ź-Ś-Ż-SZ
    DZ-C-DŹ-Ć-DŻ-CZ
    You can find the examples of pronounciation on youtube, but I was told by some English speakers they do not hear the difference between sz-ś and cz-ć (same as when I try to grasp the differences between some English vowels).

    Actually, Polish spelling is very easy, and has only few exceptions. Every word can be read only in one way. Writing is a bit harder, because of historical reasons: we still use "ch" and "h" and "rz-ż" despite the sounds are nowadays the same, there are general rules but they have exceptions.

    , @utu
    Oh believe me, I have no such intention. But if my life had pushed me in this direction, I could. Hundreds of thousands of Poles have become French in their heart and been accepted as such so why not the opposite?

    Do not forget who you are. Do not forget where the discussion started. It was my supposition that external phenotypic differences like the color of the skin makes a complete and successful assimilation impossible in mono-ethnic society due to many processes. I wrote about the critical role of mimicry (#722) in the process of assimilation which white Frenchmen, just like the Poles in France, can resort to in Poland, so they unlike you can have a good shot at true assimilation with a minimal impact on the larger society. For you and other x-Africans to succeed in assimilation Poland would have to retool itself from the mono-ethnic society to the multi-ethnic society with all its drawbacks. This pure chutzpah on your or Okechukwu's part, (who goes even further by arguing that this retooling will make Europeans societies better because it will save Europeans from themselves) to make such demands.

    The discussion is about your and Okechukwu skin color. It is not about your brains or IQ or chess skills or religion or sanitary habits. My argument was that skin color is a sufficient factor to sow the discord and initiate transformations in the monochromatic society. The transformation will lead to invention of racial identities and stratifications and clusterization along the racial lines. Racial theories will be imported from the most rabid Anglo-Saxon sources and the Nation of Islam megalomaniacal ignoramuses. Does Poland really need it?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Diversity actually has a salutary effect as it sensitizes people to the values and traditions of others, making conflict less likely.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

    Read More
    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    That's because some people have fought for the privilege of claiming property on a land. Not because of diversity itself. The Balkans have been harmoniously ruled by multicultural, multi-confessional states for centuries until nationalism/tribalism showed its ugly head and spread war and violence.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Afrosapiens
    I don't know about epigenetics, but there are things that differentiate African Americans from other black population.

    -The level of violence in their neighborhoods (they are victims of abuse or hear gunshots at night, witness violent death or injury, are subjected to threats and have to be wary on the streets)

    -Single parenthood, step-parents and abandonment which are causes of chronic stress and troubled child-parent relationship

    I have this source saying that exposure to violence decreases IQ:
    http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/191640

    And this one on chronic stress damaging brain structure and connectivity:
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athletes-way/201402/chronic-stress-can-damage-brain-structure-and-connectivity

    As for lower class Poles, they're supposed to have lower IQs than African Americans. Poland's mean IQ is something like 95, African Americans have mean IQs of 90 (for those who believe in the evidence given for a narrowing of the gap in the current generation). And it adds up, African Americans must be on average slightly poorer and less educated than Poles, so they accordingly have a slightly lower average IQ.

    Yes, I suspect that those (cultural and social conditions)—and possibly others—likely factor in, perhaps quite significantly.

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    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Jm8
    "I am very hesitant to accept any explanation involving epigenetics at the time. It would have to last few generations..."

    That's understandable, since it's not yet well understood. I myself am still uncertain, though I suspect it figures in as a factor (along with the cultural)—but hopefully more information will be available in not too long.

    As for lasting generations, I think this may be possible to a certain extent especially (one might speculate) where the cultural environment (a drastically distinct way of life/mode of socialization created as an adaptation to a history of great trauma, also recreating some of said trauma) of the group (e.g. African Americans) continues and may help to maintain some of it (maintaining aspects of the cultural/psychological environment and continuing to stimulate or maintain certain epigenetic effects/switches for continuing generations) , which I suspect it does (generally their ways of socialization are heavily shaped by their historical societal role)

    "at which point why has to ask why descendants of people living in abject poverty (in case of my country, descendants of serfs) have not IQ on the levels comparable to black Americans."

    Perhaps. But though they may not have IQs on the level of black Americans, in many countries the lower classes in general do tend to score somewhat lower in IQ than those of higher classes, sometimes significantly (though of course some of that could likely also be genetic—in the usual sense—and/or cultural). But as far as I know (though you would of course likely know better than I about Poland) that the descendants of serfs in Poland (and most other places) do not occupy the same rigidly marginal—to the same degree (in such a defined way, normally class, though stratified, is a continuum and somewhat less rigid) and caste-like position as African Americans in the same way.
    In the black American case, there is still (often in practice) a clear division between them and the larger society with little assimilation—historically assimilation was impossible (making the many of the practices/particularities they developed as slaves and more likely to persist, for a while at least, once official discrimination is gone—this being different from the racial systems in Latin America or Europe and the UK, or most European class systems).


    "...Also, both american blacks and afrocaribeans were enslaved, so how “epigenetics” would explain higher scores of the latter?"

    I suspect poverty might not be not the only cause of that sort of effect,
    (My idea would be that it may relate to the fact that) The form of slavery that existed in the United States was in general many ways especially psychologically dehumanizing compared to other places—the form in took in the US being sometimes known as "the peculiar institution" (in some of the ways I mentioned in some earlier comments)
    (Though I think Caribbean slavery could often be very (perhaps at times more) harsh in other ways (esp physically: physically dangerous and in the severity of punishments for attempted escape)

    There is evidence that epigenetic effects can result from certain psychological experiences/traumas, (but it is far from known yet for sure which types off experiences, what effects, and to what degree.)


    Interestingly/notably, Bahamians (and Barbadians and Jamaicans) have less white admixture than black Americans (only about 12%, as you mentioned, on average—which would/should not be enough to have much or any effect on IQ).

    “I am very hesitant to accept any explanation involving epigenetics at the time. It would have to last few generations…”

    That’s understandable, since it’s not yet well understood. I myself am still uncertain, though I suspect it figures in as a factor (along with the cultural)—but hopefully more information will be available in not too long.

    Regarding epigenetics, the thing which I think has to be asked is: where would it appear in the various forms of inheritance estimation? My understanding is that in twin studies it would be seen in the non-shared environment grab bag. What that implies is even if it turns out to be relevant in a meaningful way (in terms of percent variance explained) it is only taking away from the variance we currently assume is explained by the environment.

    The heritability studies place some serious limits on how much is non-genetic. And that is excluding the effect of measurement error (see SSC link below).

    The meme of epigenetics somehow significantly reducing the importance of genetics is simply wrong.

    Epigenetics (and other interesting aspects of non-shared environment) is discussed at SSC: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/03/16/non-shared-environment-doesnt-just-mean-schools-and-peers/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Afrosapiens

    What that implies is even if it turns out to be relevant in a meaningful way (in terms of percent variance explained) it is only taking away from the variance we currently assume is explained by the environment.
     
    Epigenetic modifications inherited from parents are supposed to show in narrow-sense heritability. Those that happen later in life are part of non-shared environment.

    The meme of epigenetics somehow significantly reducing the importance of genetics is simply wrong.
     
    No, sorry for your Darwinian fantasies. Ask RaceRealist about those topics, he's also knowledgeable on the influence of the microbiome and other evolutionary processes that act independently of genes.
    , @Jm8
    "Regarding epigenetics, the thing which I think has to be asked is: where would it appear in the various forms of inheritance estimation? My understanding is that in twin studies it would be seen in the non-shared environment grab bag. What that implies is even if it turns out to be relevant in a meaningful way (in terms of percent variance explained) it is only taking away from the variance we currently assume is explained by the environment."

    Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but if epigenetic effects can be passed on/inherited (unlike simply environmental effects), then why would they automatically be seem in the component estimated to be non-genetic (or environmental)? I would imagine at least some of it could be likely to be (currently) attributed to a genetic component.

    , @RaceRealist88
    Epigenetic effects would show up as 'genetic', when they're really not due to DNA methylization (it'd thusly be an environmental effect). I know there are people strongly against epigenetics (HBDers, right wingers, etc), but I think there is something to it. Remember, it's a new field. I linked some papers on rethinking the Modern Synthesis, and epigenetics is kinda the forefront of the rethink/replacement of the Modern Synthesis.

    I just saw this book published about the Holocaust and epigenetics as well.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @Jm8
    "I am very hesitant to accept any explanation involving epigenetics at the time. It would have to last few generations..."

    That's understandable, since it's not yet well understood. I myself am still uncertain, though I suspect it figures in as a factor (along with the cultural)—but hopefully more information will be available in not too long.

    As for lasting generations, I think this may be possible to a certain extent especially (one might speculate) where the cultural environment (a drastically distinct way of life/mode of socialization created as an adaptation to a history of great trauma, also recreating some of said trauma) of the group (e.g. African Americans) continues and may help to maintain some of it (maintaining aspects of the cultural/psychological environment and continuing to stimulate or maintain certain epigenetic effects/switches for continuing generations) , which I suspect it does (generally their ways of socialization are heavily shaped by their historical societal role)

    "at which point why has to ask why descendants of people living in abject poverty (in case of my country, descendants of serfs) have not IQ on the levels comparable to black Americans."

    Perhaps. But though they may not have IQs on the level of black Americans, in many countries the lower classes in general do tend to score somewhat lower in IQ than those of higher classes, sometimes significantly (though of course some of that could likely also be genetic—in the usual sense—and/or cultural). But as far as I know (though you would of course likely know better than I about Poland) that the descendants of serfs in Poland (and most other places) do not occupy the same rigidly marginal—to the same degree (in such a defined way, normally class, though stratified, is a continuum and somewhat less rigid) and caste-like position as African Americans in the same way.
    In the black American case, there is still (often in practice) a clear division between them and the larger society with little assimilation—historically assimilation was impossible (making the many of the practices/particularities they developed as slaves and more likely to persist, for a while at least, once official discrimination is gone—this being different from the racial systems in Latin America or Europe and the UK, or most European class systems).


    "...Also, both american blacks and afrocaribeans were enslaved, so how “epigenetics” would explain higher scores of the latter?"

    I suspect poverty might not be not the only cause of that sort of effect,
    (My idea would be that it may relate to the fact that) The form of slavery that existed in the United States was in general many ways especially psychologically dehumanizing compared to other places—the form in took in the US being sometimes known as "the peculiar institution" (in some of the ways I mentioned in some earlier comments)
    (Though I think Caribbean slavery could often be very (perhaps at times more) harsh in other ways (esp physically: physically dangerous and in the severity of punishments for attempted escape)

    There is evidence that epigenetic effects can result from certain psychological experiences/traumas, (but it is far from known yet for sure which types off experiences, what effects, and to what degree.)


    Interestingly/notably, Bahamians (and Barbadians and Jamaicans) have less white admixture than black Americans (only about 12%, as you mentioned, on average—which would/should not be enough to have much or any effect on IQ).

    I don’t know about epigenetics, but there are things that differentiate African Americans from other black population.

    -The level of violence in their neighborhoods (they are victims of abuse or hear gunshots at night, witness violent death or injury, are subjected to threats and have to be wary on the streets)

    -Single parenthood, step-parents and abandonment which are causes of chronic stress and troubled child-parent relationship

    I have this source saying that exposure to violence decreases IQ:

    http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/191640

    And this one on chronic stress damaging brain structure and connectivity:

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athletes-way/201402/chronic-stress-can-damage-brain-structure-and-connectivity

    As for lower class Poles, they’re supposed to have lower IQs than African Americans. Poland’s mean IQ is something like 95, African Americans have mean IQs of 90 (for those who believe in the evidence given for a narrowing of the gap in the current generation). And it adds up, African Americans must be on average slightly poorer and less educated than Poles, so they accordingly have a slightly lower average IQ.

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    • Replies: @Jm8
    Yes, I suspect that those (cultural and social conditions)—and possibly others—likely factor in, perhaps quite significantly.
    , @szopen

    Poland’s mean IQ is something like 95,
     
    Actually, that's hard to say. The numbers I saw for my home country average IQ range from 94 to 107. Lynns estimation from 2002 was 99, and from 2012 was, IIRC 96. Rindermann gives 97, Weiss - 94 based on old PISA (but Poland went up in recent PISA studies). The "90" given for African American (it's from Nisbett and Flynn, am i right?) is very controversial and was debated; Rushton and Jensen 2010 gave the mean IQ for 17 years-old as 81. So, yeah, if you will take the lowest reported national Polish IQ, and the highest reported for blacks, your argument would make sense.

    Of course, you would have to forget that actually the argument is that almost 3/4 of Poles were serfs, elites were massacred during WW2 (during German intelligenzaktions and Soviet executions), and serf descendants today are not all in lower classes. And, obviously, that would require higher variance than in countries without serfdom or where serfdom was abolished earlier, which is not the case.

    Or maybe I amn wrong? I suppose that if there was a factor which influenced in different proportion different parts of a population, then it should increase the variance. Am I wrong?

    I think I have bunch of studies in POlish in my hdd, but they often give raw scores, when give IQ results they use different scale (Catells with SD-24) and are not standarized to the so called "Greenwich IQ".
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  • @utu
    he seems to think American culture of race relations has to be universal

    My experiences are American. In many areas America sets the tone and American solutions are often adopted by others because they cater to the lowest common denominator, to the bottom line. So there is a possibility it will become universal. Just look at police brutality: American police is not getting less brutal but many other countries police forces become more like American police.

    he seems to live life like people of all colors and religions could get along by just meeting each other

    I am trying my best but I am finding that this requires lots of effort and lots of energy that otherwise could have been spent on something more productive than the constant dance of mending fences, tip toeing, avoidance, unnecessary confrontations, that would be totally unnecessary in the mono-ethnic, mono-cultural society. All natural tensions and conflicts because of natural competition for resources are exacerbated when you throw in different ethnic groups into the system. This is mathematically obvious: extra variables tend to increase chaos and cause unstable behavior. Even if we had a luxury of creating a utopia from a scratch with babies of many races w/o any cultural baggage raised in the same beliefs the process of clusterization eventually would occur along the racial lines (external phenotype) because the race is that extra mathematical parameter that will increase system instability. So this utopia will evolve to something more prone to internal conflicts than a similar utopia devoid of this extra parameter of race.

    I am trying my best but I am finding that this requires lots of effort and lots of energy that otherwise could have been spent on something more productive than the constant dance of mending fences, tip toeing, avoidance, unnecessary confrontations, that would be totally unnecessary in the mono-ethnic, mono-cultural society.

    Then it’s safe to say you’d prefer the war, rape, pillage, plunder, genocides, pogroms and wholesale carnage that characterized European history for millennia. Was “mono-ethnic” England, for example, a font of peace and comity? Diversity actually has a salutary effect as it sensitizes people to the values and traditions of others, making conflict less likely. Neither Europe nor America were model societies when they were less diverse. They are far, far better now.

    I’m sure you’re aware that the most common type of war is civil war — people of the same ethnicity and culture cutting each other to pieces. Mono-ethnic/cultural societies have never been free of conflict. They’ve always required tip toeing, fence mending, tolerance, negotiation and conflict resolution.

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    • Replies: @utu
    Diversity actually has a salutary effect as it sensitizes people to the values and traditions of others, making conflict less likely.

    Interesting theory. This reminds me of the Rabbi who told one Jew to move a goat into his apartment to reduce his annoyance with his mother in law bickering. It worked, in relative terms. But everybody ended up hating the goat.

    It never ceases to amaze me how inventive people can be in rationalizing their core beliefs and self-interests. They come up with all kinds of counterfactual, ahistorical and illogical nonsense. In your case you also suffer from Messiah complex. You think that Black people will bring the salvation to the world. No, I am wrong. My theory is bad. You could not believe in such humongous chutzpah. But it is possible that all you want is to see European culture go down and see white Europeans suffer. There is a hint of genocidal ideations in you, you know.
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  • @Afrosapiens

    The problem utu has described actually already happened. A black immigrant from Cameroon called Simon Mol started a campaign to remove Polish word “murzyn”, because he thought it is offensive.
     
    That was more than ten years ago, what changed since then? And how can one even remove a word?

    In any case, if someone works, pays taxes and contributes to the prosperity of a country, he's entitled to complain about whatever he dislikes, whether it's a supposedly racist word or potholes on the streets. But let's not give it more importance than it has, those words don't hurt if they're not used in an offensive way. They're just potholes on the street. I actually mind potholes more than any word of dubious connotation. We're talking about racist words, but there are also sexist insults. Women are entitled to complain about words like "bitch", but no one would say those complaints threaten the social fabric.

    He got the leftist award for “anti-racist of the year”.
     
    And? What did it change in your life? Just don't read the headlines that you dislike.

    We do not need racial tensions, affirmative actions and insane leftist going around screaming “yo racist!” at everyone.
     
    No, you just need to not care about it if you don't feel concerned.

    That’s not for you to decide. Besides, “Pole” does not mean “Polish citizen”. Not all Polish citizens are Poles. Not all Poles are Polish citizens.
     
    The law decides, as a European Union citizen, I'm allowed to live and work in Poland. Then I can see how the Polish law asks me in order to become a Polish citizen. So you don't decide more than me, only the law decides.

    But you cannot just start eating pierogies, speaking broken Polish and claim you are Pole (I have to yet met black person who would speak good Polish without accent and massacring all the “ć”, “cz”, “ś”, “sz”, “ż” and “ź”, “dź”, “dż” and so on…). We could accept few such people, why not. Ten, hundred, maybe. But no tens of thousands.
     
    France has assimilated millions of blacks and other non-whites, or whites like Poles, the way the overwhelming majority of speak French is indistinguishable from the natives, so is the way they dress. So Poland can do it it to, unless it doesn't want to.

    But anyway, you already showing your attitude when you are using word “privilege” instead of “human right”.
     
    Tribalism is a privilege, not a human right.

    And how can one even remove a word? (etc)

    One can certainly try.

    you just need to not care about it if you don’t feel concerned.

    Sure, and then why day I will lose my job because I wrote “murzyn” in my work, or because my son won’t get a job because some idiot will decide that we need affirmative action for blacks. No, thanks. Prevention is the best.

    So you don’t decide more than me, only the law decides.

    No. First, on more irrevelant note, the law in Poland is decided by POlish citizens and can be changed by Polish citizens. So I am more entitled to decide than you (if we were talking about citizenship).

    But, of course, you seemingly had not read my comment at all.

    That’s not for you to decide. Besides, “Pole” does not mean “Polish citizen”. Not all Polish citizens are Poles. Not all Poles are Polish citizens.

    I wasn’t talking about citizenship, but about becoming Pole. I specifically stated “Pole” and “Polish citizenship” are two different things. The fact that despite I clearly stated that there is a difference, and still you insist on citizenship laws means you CANT be Pole. By passing some test you can become Polish citizen, but not Pole. Fight for what we fight, love what we love, praise our heroes, remember our history, treat our ancestors as your ancestors.

    Sure, to quote Lutosławski, a theoretician on Polish nationalism:

    A Negro or Indian can become Polish if he will accept a spiritual heritage of Polish nation, enclosed in it its literature, art, politics, customs, if he will have unbreakable will to contribute to the national development of Polish nation

    But it’s not just about personally feeling that you want to be Pole, but also about being accepted as a Pole. Like with love, it’s not enough to declare “we are in love”. The second person must agree too.

    Tribalism is a privilege, not a human right.

    Calling fundamental human rights (of nation self-determination) tribalism is not an argument. A nation is a family. It’s up to the family to decide who is the member of the family and calling it “familism” won’t change it.

    I must also say that when you causally declare that today you are French, but tomorrow you can decide to be Pole, that does not make me open to the idea that you actually could be Pole.

    By the way, how would you write “szopen” in English

    French “chopin” without nasal vowel. The foreigners usually have problems with distinguishing between “sz” and “ś”, “cz” and “ć”. I met a doctor from Senegal, very nice guy, living here I think for two decades or so, but still pronouncing all “sz” as soft “ś”. His son is Pole, no doubt about that, but his father is not, no doubt about that.

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens

    One can certainly try.
     
    Not really, people say and think whatever they want in private. And if one word is not acceptable in public, they use bywords anyway.

    Sure, and then why day I will lose my job because I wrote “murzyn” in my work, or because my son won’t get a job because some idiot will decide that we need affirmative action for blacks. No, thanks. Prevention is the best.
     
    Look, if you're socially adjusted and you know that some consider a word offensive, you don't use it. Would you use "Bitch"? Doesn't Polish language have derogatory terms for people from some regions in the country, or for some social classes? If yes, you know how not to use the word in public, so there is no reason that it doesn't apply to an anti-black word.

    As for your son, how would you know he's losing a job to affirmative action? Affirmative action in the US is not something for blacks, it's something for minorities and women of all races, and if things become similar to the US, your son is more likely to miss a job opportunity because it's been taken by a white woman thanks to affirmative action.


    No. First, on more irrevelant note, the law in Poland is decided by POlish citizens and can be changed by Polish citizens. So I am more entitled to decide than you (if we were talking about citizenship).
     
    Sure, but we're equal before Polish law, so as long as the law stays the same, you don't decide more than me. But you have the power to change this law that I don't have.

    I specifically stated “Pole” and “Polish citizenship” are two different things. The fact that despite I clearly stated that there is a difference, and still you insist on citizenship laws means you CANT be Pole. By passing some test you can become Polish citizen, but not Pole. Fight for what we fight, love what we love, praise our heroes, remember our history, treat our ancestors as your ancestors.
     
    Of course I can, just like your own quote says.

    But it’s not just about personally feeling that you want to be Pole, but also about being accepted as a Pole. Like with love, it’s not enough to declare “we are in love”. The second person must agree too.
     
    Just because you wouldn't accept me as a Pole doesn't mean no one would. I can marry a Pole, have Pole friends and colleagues, they can all accept me as a Pole or just waste no time putting labels on me. So would many strangers.

    Calling fundamental human rights (of nation self-determination) tribalism is not an argument. A nation is a family. It’s up to the family to decide who is the member of the family and calling it “familism” won’t change it.
     
    There is no such thing in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Tribalism is a human right that you invented, it's your own little privilege. Let's not even talk about your absurd familism analogy. What do you do for the Polish nation besides paying taxes and obeying the laws (which every resident can do). Are you in some associations? In some unions? What do you do for Poland that I couldn't do if I wanted to become a Pole?

    I'm Rotary Club member, that's one way I represent France in the march for global peace and understanding. If I moved to Poland, I'd find a local chapter and give a Polish voice to this effort. What do you for your country? If you're just claiming your love from your armchair, you're not being very productive.


    I must also say that when you causally declare that today you are French, but tomorrow you can decide to be Pole, that does not make me open to the idea that you actually could be Pole.
     
    Oh believe me, I have no such intention. But if my life had pushed me in this direction, I could. Hundreds of thousands of Poles have become French in their heart and been accepted as such so why not the opposite?

    French “chopin” without nasal vowel. The foreigners usually have problems with distinguishing between “sz” and “ś”, “cz” and “ć”. I met a doctor from Senegal, very nice guy, living here I think for two decades or so, but still pronouncing all “sz” as soft “ś”. His son is Pole, no doubt about that, but his father is not, no doubt about that.
     
    Thanks, and how do you pronounce the others? Polish always looked unreadable to me.
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  • @szopen
    Thanks a lot for the links.

    I am very hesitant to accept any explanation involving epigenetics at the time. It would have to last few generations; at which point why has to ask why descendants of people living in abject poverty (in case of my country, descendants of serfs) have not IQ on the levels comparable to black Americans. It's not that I claim "serfs were slaves", but the serfs were also permanently malnourished, uneducated, often drunk, dirty and even considered biologically worse (in terms of the time; nobles were supposedly descendants of conquerors, and serfs were not, or were sons of Cham, or whatever). Also, both american blacks and afrocaribeans were enslaved, so how "epigenetics" would explain higher scores of the latter?

    The question is also about racial admixture in Bahamas/Barbados etc. I really doubted it is non-existent and indeed quick google claims white admixture is at 10% (+-2) in black Barbadians, and even higher in Jamaica (12.4+-3.5). If whites have higher average IQ, then admixture should raise Barbadian average. Your point about more mixed countries is valid, though; Spain national IQ supposed to be 98, so the slightly lower scores than English cannot explain the differences given higher admixture.

    Which creates even more puzzles.

    “I am very hesitant to accept any explanation involving epigenetics at the time. It would have to last few generations…”

    That’s understandable, since it’s not yet well understood. I myself am still uncertain, though I suspect it figures in as a factor (along with the cultural)—but hopefully more information will be available in not too long.

    As for lasting generations, I think this may be possible to a certain extent especially (one might speculate) where the cultural environment (a drastically distinct way of life/mode of socialization created as an adaptation to a history of great trauma, also recreating some of said trauma) of the group (e.g. African Americans) continues and may help to maintain some of it (maintaining aspects of the cultural/psychological environment and continuing to stimulate or maintain certain epigenetic effects/switches for continuing generations) , which I suspect it does (generally their ways of socialization are heavily shaped by their historical societal role)

    “at which point why has to ask why descendants of people living in abject poverty (in case of my country, descendants of serfs) have not IQ on the levels comparable to black Americans.”

    Perhaps. But though they may not have IQs on the level of black Americans, in many countries the lower classes in general do tend to score somewhat lower in IQ than those of higher classes, sometimes significantly (though of course some of that could likely also be genetic—in the usual sense—and/or cultural). But as far as I know (though you would of course likely know better than I about Poland) that the descendants of serfs in Poland (and most other places) do not occupy the same rigidly marginal—to the same degree (in such a defined way, normally class, though stratified, is a continuum and somewhat less rigid) and caste-like position as African Americans in the same way.
    In the black American case, there is still (often in practice) a clear division between them and the larger society with little assimilation—historically assimilation was impossible (making the many of the practices/particularities they developed as slaves and more likely to persist, for a while at least, once official discrimination is gone—this being different from the racial systems in Latin America or Europe and the UK, or most European class systems).

    “…Also, both american blacks and afrocaribeans were enslaved, so how “epigenetics” would explain higher scores of the latter?”

    I suspect poverty might not be not the only cause of that sort of effect,
    (My idea would be that it may relate to the fact that) The form of slavery that existed in the United States was in general many ways especially psychologically dehumanizing compared to other places—the form in took in the US being sometimes known as “the peculiar institution” (in some of the ways I mentioned in some earlier comments)
    (Though I think Caribbean slavery could often be very (perhaps at times more) harsh in other ways (esp physically: physically dangerous and in the severity of punishments for attempted escape)

    There is evidence that epigenetic effects can result from certain psychological experiences/traumas, (but it is far from known yet for sure which types off experiences, what effects, and to what degree.)

    Interestingly/notably, Bahamians (and Barbadians and Jamaicans) have less white admixture than black Americans (only about 12%, as you mentioned, on average—which would/should not be enough to have much or any effect on IQ).

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    I don't know about epigenetics, but there are things that differentiate African Americans from other black population.

    -The level of violence in their neighborhoods (they are victims of abuse or hear gunshots at night, witness violent death or injury, are subjected to threats and have to be wary on the streets)

    -Single parenthood, step-parents and abandonment which are causes of chronic stress and troubled child-parent relationship

    I have this source saying that exposure to violence decreases IQ:
    http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/191640

    And this one on chronic stress damaging brain structure and connectivity:
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athletes-way/201402/chronic-stress-can-damage-brain-structure-and-connectivity

    As for lower class Poles, they're supposed to have lower IQs than African Americans. Poland's mean IQ is something like 95, African Americans have mean IQs of 90 (for those who believe in the evidence given for a narrowing of the gap in the current generation). And it adds up, African Americans must be on average slightly poorer and less educated than Poles, so they accordingly have a slightly lower average IQ.
    , @res

    “I am very hesitant to accept any explanation involving epigenetics at the time. It would have to last few generations…”

    That’s understandable, since it’s not yet well understood. I myself am still uncertain, though I suspect it figures in as a factor (along with the cultural)—but hopefully more information will be available in not too long.
     
    Regarding epigenetics, the thing which I think has to be asked is: where would it appear in the various forms of inheritance estimation? My understanding is that in twin studies it would be seen in the non-shared environment grab bag. What that implies is even if it turns out to be relevant in a meaningful way (in terms of percent variance explained) it is only taking away from the variance we currently assume is explained by the environment.

    The heritability studies place some serious limits on how much is non-genetic. And that is excluding the effect of measurement error (see SSC link below).

    The meme of epigenetics somehow significantly reducing the importance of genetics is simply wrong.

    Epigenetics (and other interesting aspects of non-shared environment) is discussed at SSC: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/03/16/non-shared-environment-doesnt-just-mean-schools-and-peers/
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  • @szopen

    Well, I can tell from my own life that what you describe here is fictional. I grew up in almost exclusively white social circles, my family is life, I never wanted to meet black people just to hang out with black people as if I felt alone among whites. As for words, I doubt Polish language has anti-black words,
     
    The problem utu has described actually already happened. A black immigrant from Cameroon called Simon Mol started a campaign to remove Polish word "murzyn", because he thought it is offensive. Now, "murzyn" is neutral word describing black people. Later he also campaigned for people to realise that children's poem "murzynek Bambo" is awful and racist. He got the leftist award for "anti-racist of the year". He is also known to f* with a lot of white girls, telling them that if they insist that he wears condom it means they are prejudiced and racist. So they f* without a condom. Later it appeared that he has AIDS and he infected some dozen plus Polish women. Most likelyu consciously, because he was tested to be HIV positive when he came to Poland.

    Later also appeared that he was not actually persecuted journalist, that he got a flat which was destined to the poorest families with many children.

    Actually I also met black on youtube, who claimed he knew Polish yet he spoke English all the time, who tried to convince me I should use "czarny" instead of"murzyn", despite "czarny" (ie black) in Polish would be IMO more offensive than "murzyn".

    So yeah, what utu has described is all reasonable. We do not need racial tensions, affirmative actions and insane leftist going around screaming "yo racist!" at everyone.

    I am French, I could become a Pole likewise.
     
    That's not for you to decide. Besides, "Pole" does not mean "Polish citizen". Not all Polish citizens are Poles. Not all Poles are Polish citizens.

    In theory, black person could become Pole, that's true; if you would love our language, culture as your own, if you would defend our monuments, take our history as your history, think about our heroes as about your heroes, cry when we cry, love what we love, hate what we hate; sure, why not. But you cannot just start eating pierogies, speaking broken Polish and claim you are Pole (I have to yet met black person who would speak good Polish without accent and massacring all the "ć", "cz", "ś", "sz", "ż" and "ź", "dź", "dż" and so on...). We could accept few such people, why not. Ten, hundred, maybe. But no tens of thousands.

    But anyway, you already showing your attitude when you are using word "privilege" instead of "human right".

    By the way, how would you write “szopen” in English so that it would approximate the Polish pronunciation?

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  • @szopen

    Well, I can tell from my own life that what you describe here is fictional. I grew up in almost exclusively white social circles, my family is life, I never wanted to meet black people just to hang out with black people as if I felt alone among whites. As for words, I doubt Polish language has anti-black words,
     
    The problem utu has described actually already happened. A black immigrant from Cameroon called Simon Mol started a campaign to remove Polish word "murzyn", because he thought it is offensive. Now, "murzyn" is neutral word describing black people. Later he also campaigned for people to realise that children's poem "murzynek Bambo" is awful and racist. He got the leftist award for "anti-racist of the year". He is also known to f* with a lot of white girls, telling them that if they insist that he wears condom it means they are prejudiced and racist. So they f* without a condom. Later it appeared that he has AIDS and he infected some dozen plus Polish women. Most likelyu consciously, because he was tested to be HIV positive when he came to Poland.

    Later also appeared that he was not actually persecuted journalist, that he got a flat which was destined to the poorest families with many children.

    Actually I also met black on youtube, who claimed he knew Polish yet he spoke English all the time, who tried to convince me I should use "czarny" instead of"murzyn", despite "czarny" (ie black) in Polish would be IMO more offensive than "murzyn".

    So yeah, what utu has described is all reasonable. We do not need racial tensions, affirmative actions and insane leftist going around screaming "yo racist!" at everyone.

    I am French, I could become a Pole likewise.
     
    That's not for you to decide. Besides, "Pole" does not mean "Polish citizen". Not all Polish citizens are Poles. Not all Poles are Polish citizens.

    In theory, black person could become Pole, that's true; if you would love our language, culture as your own, if you would defend our monuments, take our history as your history, think about our heroes as about your heroes, cry when we cry, love what we love, hate what we hate; sure, why not. But you cannot just start eating pierogies, speaking broken Polish and claim you are Pole (I have to yet met black person who would speak good Polish without accent and massacring all the "ć", "cz", "ś", "sz", "ż" and "ź", "dź", "dż" and so on...). We could accept few such people, why not. Ten, hundred, maybe. But no tens of thousands.

    But anyway, you already showing your attitude when you are using word "privilege" instead of "human right".

    The problem utu has described actually already happened. A black immigrant from Cameroon called Simon Mol started a campaign to remove Polish word “murzyn”, because he thought it is offensive.

    That was more than ten years ago, what changed since then? And how can one even remove a word?

    In any case, if someone works, pays taxes and contributes to the prosperity of a country, he’s entitled to complain about whatever he dislikes, whether it’s a supposedly racist word or potholes on the streets. But let’s not give it more importance than it has, those words don’t hurt if they’re not used in an offensive way. They’re just potholes on the street. I actually mind potholes more than any word of dubious connotation. We’re talking about racist words, but there are also sexist insults. Women are entitled to complain about words like “bitch”, but no one would say those complaints threaten the social fabric.

    He got the leftist award for “anti-racist of the year”.

    And? What did it change in your life? Just don’t read the headlines that you dislike.

    We do not need racial tensions, affirmative actions and insane leftist going around screaming “yo racist!” at everyone.

    No, you just need to not care about it if you don’t feel concerned.

    That’s not for you to decide. Besides, “Pole” does not mean “Polish citizen”. Not all Polish citizens are Poles. Not all Poles are Polish citizens.

    The law decides, as a European Union citizen, I’m allowed to live and work in Poland. Then I can see how the Polish law asks me in order to become a Polish citizen. So you don’t decide more than me, only the law decides.

    But you cannot just start eating pierogies, speaking broken Polish and claim you are Pole (I have to yet met black person who would speak good Polish without accent and massacring all the “ć”, “cz”, “ś”, “sz”, “ż” and “ź”, “dź”, “dż” and so on…). We could accept few such people, why not. Ten, hundred, maybe. But no tens of thousands.

    France has assimilated millions of blacks and other non-whites, or whites like Poles, the way the overwhelming majority of speak French is indistinguishable from the natives, so is the way they dress. So Poland can do it it to, unless it doesn’t want to.

    But anyway, you already showing your attitude when you are using word “privilege” instead of “human right”.

    Tribalism is a privilege, not a human right.

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    • Replies: @szopen

    And how can one even remove a word? (etc)
     
    One can certainly try.

    you just need to not care about it if you don’t feel concerned.
     
    Sure, and then why day I will lose my job because I wrote "murzyn" in my work, or because my son won't get a job because some idiot will decide that we need affirmative action for blacks. No, thanks. Prevention is the best.

    So you don’t decide more than me, only the law decides.
     
    No. First, on more irrevelant note, the law in Poland is decided by POlish citizens and can be changed by Polish citizens. So I am more entitled to decide than you (if we were talking about citizenship).

    But, of course, you seemingly had not read my comment at all.

    That’s not for you to decide. Besides, “Pole” does not mean “Polish citizen”. Not all Polish citizens are Poles. Not all Poles are Polish citizens.
     

    I wasn't talking about citizenship, but about becoming Pole. I specifically stated "Pole" and "Polish citizenship" are two different things. The fact that despite I clearly stated that there is a difference, and still you insist on citizenship laws means you CANT be Pole. By passing some test you can become Polish citizen, but not Pole. Fight for what we fight, love what we love, praise our heroes, remember our history, treat our ancestors as your ancestors.

    Sure, to quote Lutosławski, a theoretician on Polish nationalism:

    A Negro or Indian can become Polish if he will accept a spiritual heritage of Polish nation, enclosed in it its literature, art, politics, customs, if he will have unbreakable will to contribute to the national development of Polish nation
     

    But it's not just about personally feeling that you want to be Pole, but also about being accepted as a Pole. Like with love, it's not enough to declare "we are in love". The second person must agree too.

    Tribalism is a privilege, not a human right.
     
    Calling fundamental human rights (of nation self-determination) tribalism is not an argument. A nation is a family. It's up to the family to decide who is the member of the family and calling it "familism" won't change it.

    I must also say that when you causally declare that today you are French, but tomorrow you can decide to be Pole, that does not make me open to the idea that you actually could be Pole.


    By the way, how would you write “szopen” in English
     
    French "chopin" without nasal vowel. The foreigners usually have problems with distinguishing between "sz" and "ś", "cz" and "ć". I met a doctor from Senegal, very nice guy, living here I think for two decades or so, but still pronouncing all "sz" as soft "ś". His son is Pole, no doubt about that, but his father is not, no doubt about that.
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  • @utu
    he seems to think American culture of race relations has to be universal

    My experiences are American. In many areas America sets the tone and American solutions are often adopted by others because they cater to the lowest common denominator, to the bottom line. So there is a possibility it will become universal. Just look at police brutality: American police is not getting less brutal but many other countries police forces become more like American police.

    he seems to live life like people of all colors and religions could get along by just meeting each other

    I am trying my best but I am finding that this requires lots of effort and lots of energy that otherwise could have been spent on something more productive than the constant dance of mending fences, tip toeing, avoidance, unnecessary confrontations, that would be totally unnecessary in the mono-ethnic, mono-cultural society. All natural tensions and conflicts because of natural competition for resources are exacerbated when you throw in different ethnic groups into the system. This is mathematically obvious: extra variables tend to increase chaos and cause unstable behavior. Even if we had a luxury of creating a utopia from a scratch with babies of many races w/o any cultural baggage raised in the same beliefs the process of clusterization eventually would occur along the racial lines (external phenotype) because the race is that extra mathematical parameter that will increase system instability. So this utopia will evolve to something more prone to internal conflicts than a similar utopia devoid of this extra parameter of race.

    In many areas America sets the tone and American solutions are often adopted by others because they cater to the lowest common denominator, to the bottom line. So there is a possibility it will become universal.

    Thanks god many peculiarities of America won’t spread internationally. Second amendment won’t spread to Europe, total free speech won’t spread to Europe, minimalist welfare state won’t spread to Europe.

    America responded to diversity by official segregation. Jim Crow did more harm to race relations than slavery. Had reconstruction lasted until not needed anymore, the black population would have been absorbed in a Latin American way. But Jim Crow delayed the process by one century and gave birth to ideologies and attitudes that still live on.

    There is no such thing in France (and the rest of Europe I guess), the black population is not alienated, Muslims are in opposition to the mainstream but it’s something they made up on their own and that jeopardizes their assimilation prospects. Although it’s not that bad for them, much better than for black Americans.

    Here are some 2008 French stats, assimilation is probably even higher now:

    -Education

    -Intermarriage

    source: https://www.ined.fr/fichier/s_rubrique/19558/dt168_teo.fr.pdf

    We learn that:

    -A little more than 50% of descendants of immigrants actually have one native French parent.
    -more than 50% of second generation male and female immigrants from the Gulf of Guinea, Southeast Asian and Europe are married or in cohabitation with a native French
    -second generation Blacks from the Gulf of Guinea and the Caribbean, South East Asians and Europeans have tertiary degrees at the same or superior rates as Native French.
    -Muslim groups (Turks, North Africans and Sahelian Africans) have lower educational attainment and intermarriage rates than other groups. But a substantial part are also mixed and the educational gaps are narrower than in the US and the intermarriage rates are higher than for Black Americans, except for Turkish women.

    So the assimilation process is very fast in France and the educational gaps narrow. So the country is becoming mixed but not like Brazil because most minorities are similarly or more educated than than the native population. That’s a very sustainable situation.

    I am trying my best but I am finding that this requires lots of effort and lots of energy that otherwise could have been spent on something more productive than the constant dance of mending fences

    Elaborate, I don’t get it. Are you implying that it’s an effort to get along with people of different races? I never felt that way, it never made a difference for me. The only time I found myself in an awkward situation was with a Chechen classmate. French people usually kiss each other on cheeks as a greeting for women. I knew that she was from a very conservative family and that she’d only shake hands with a man. But one day I saw her on the street and I forgot this detail so I went to kiss her and she went “what are you trying to do?”, it was awkward but I just said sorry I forgot and it was forgotten right away. That’s it. It’s the only experience of cultural misunderstanding that I can remember in my life. Ethnic jokes are a usual part of my life though, but they’re cool, I’m black, my girlfriend is North African and Jewish, so there is matter to make fun of the stereotypes of our respective origins. The irony is that I’m the Jew at home money-wise.

    All natural tensions and conflicts because of natural competition for resources are exacerbated when you throw in different ethnic groups into the system.

    I’m not talking about general social dynamics, I’m talking about how individuals relate to each others in real life. I’m wondering, do race-relations headlines affect the way you relate with your friends or strangers of different race?

    Even if we had a luxury of creating a utopia from a scratch with babies of many races w/o any cultural baggage raised in the same beliefs the process of clusterization eventually would occur along the racial lines (external phenotype) because the race is that extra mathematical parameter that will increase system instability.

    I believe the exact oposite. From my own experience. I think racism is taught and children raised in the same conditions, without being taught to give importance to race and ethnicity grow up to become race-unaware. And that societies close to that ideal can exist and do exist.

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  • I’m under the impression that those Americans who claim to be colorblind do not exactly act and make life choices accordingly. They’re colorblind, with caveats.

    I wasn’t talking about color blindness per se. Everyone reacts to visual cues. We notice if someone is blonde or a redhead. So we’re certainly going to notice gradations in skin color and other outward phenotypes. I’m not disputing that American history was formed in the cauldron of a particularly vicious and inhumane form of racism. It was sort of a mass psychosis that developed and was codified in order to justify the dehumanization and enslavement of an entire race of people. Unlike what modern racists would have us believe, feelings of racial antipathy weren’t always there, nor are such feelings innate. In early 17th century America black Africans were as free and equal as everyone else. They owned property. They participated in commerce. They even owned white indentured servants.

    In France it’s different, even someone who admits to be somewhat prejudiced won’t actually have race-conscious. What we call “racism” in France is rather xenophobia, some French people are simply bothered by people sticking to their foreign ways. But anyone who’s culturally assimilated will be effortlessly accepted. And in the meantime, French culture appropriates many foreign elements, it’s an exchange, and it’s cool.

    Yes, I agree. This is the Ancient Roman model. The French were always cultural and linguistic imperialists much more so than racists. In Haiti, French slave masters didn’t send their mixed-race offspring back into slavery as happened in the United States. For the most part, the French embraced their mulattoes, educated them and provided for them. This is the clearest indication of the two societies’ attitudes toward race. The Americans considered even a drop of African blood to be a taint on racial purity.

    Sure, but only the US can be stereotyped this way, and not without reasons. When I see Black Lives Matters, I see that there are many white folks at their protests so I understand that not all Americans are racist.

    It isn’t just that. In mainstream American society racism is considered fundamentally primitive and passe. This is why IQ exponents and sundry other racists are relegated to dank underbelly of the Internet. Wherever and whenever they attempt to insinuate their fantasies into the real world, the pushback is always wildly disproportionate to the attempt.

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    • Agree: Afrosapiens
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  • @Okechukwu

    Well, yeah and he seems to think American culture of race relations has to be universal. It’s weird from him because he seems to live life like people of all colors and religions could get along by just meeting each other. So I don’t get where all this pessimism comes from.
     
    American attitudes towards race are multivarious, generally trending toward greater diversity, inclusion and acceptance. Remember, we just had a president for 8 years whose father was a Kenyan immigrant. I know it's often not easy for non-Americans to appreciate the nuances and shades of grey. Given media portrayals and rabid Internet keyboard racists, it's easy to succumb to stereotypes.

    American attitudes towards race are multivarious, generally trending toward greater diversity, inclusion and acceptance.

    I’m under the impression that those Americans who claim to be colorblind do not exactly act and make life choices accordingly. They’re colorblind, with caveats. In France it’s different, even someone who admits to be somewhat prejudiced won’t actually have race-conscious. What we call “racism” in France is rather xenophobia, some French people are simply bothered by people sticking to their foreign ways. But anyone who’s culturally assimilated will be effortlessly accepted. And in the meantime, French culture appropriates many foreign elements, it’s an exchange, and it’s cool.

    Remember, we just had a president for 8 years whose father was a Kenyan immigrant. I know it’s often not easy for non-Americans to appreciate the nuances and shades of grey. Given media portrayals and rabid Internet keyboard racists, it’s easy to succumb to stereotypes.

    Sure, but only the US can be stereotyped this way, and not without reasons. When I see Black Lives Matters, I see that there are many white folks at their protests so I understand that not all Americans are racist. But I also know that what they’re protesting against would not happen in France, even if Blacks were 14% or 30% of the population here.

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  • Edit: “It could be…lower than the general white average—I don’t know,…”

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  • @Jm8
    It could be (in the cases of some or many groups) lower than the general white average, but 80-85 as a genotypic IQ (in Africa) seems a bit low (in the case of most groups or overall at least), partly for some of the reasons you outlined in comment 758 (and other reasons below). But I think "as high as 90 (and even higher for some subpopulations)" as you also suggest as a possibility, does seem plausible (or perhaps low or low-mid 90s in some groups—and possibly higher in some other subgroups).

    The performance black populations in certain Caribbean countries (two in particular, that seem to have relatively high/widespread education and high living standards) is around the 90s: the Bahamas has a score of 93 and more recently the black population of Bermuda matches whites on some g-loaded tests (that is of course assuming the validity of g).

    Interestingly disease burden (and other environmental depressors associated with it including malnutrition, and it likely figures in significantly along with malnutrition) seems to correlate decently well with country iq across several racial groups, albeit somewhat loosely (In the Indian subcontinent, the Caribbean, and to some degree in Latin America), especially if one takes Malloy and Fuerst's re-analyses (below) into account—unfortunately the (disease burden score to IQ) page's below's IQ figures for Africa and the Caribbean seem to be based largely on Lynn and thus may be inaccurately low/underestimated.


    (figure label in the link below labeled “Global Infectious Disease Deaths by Region 2004” from the work of Christopher Eppig, near top,)

    http://affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/2010/08/sickness-makes-you-stupid.html

    The Bahamas (which is 90% black, see my comments in the Bahamas link) have a significant disease burden (3.47) esp. compared to the first world (so some perhaps small remaining IQ depressing effect due to that factor is not out of the question)—but low malaria compared to many of its neighbors— and is relatively wealthy for the Caribbean, but a higher measured iq score (93—about the same as much of the Middle East and parts of South East Asia—, according to the most up-to-date analysis from Jason Malloy) than India (81-82) whose disease burden is only a little higher at 3.79 (but scores similarly in IQ to some other South/South East Asian countries with similar disease burden scores. I speculate that this may at least partly relate to a relatively lower rate of malaria in particular in the Bahamas than elsewhere in the Caribbean, Africa, India etc, but I could be wrong.) All/virtually all Africa’s (as well as Haiti's) disease burden scores are higher than S. Asia’s; being mostly about 4.30-40 and up. Inconveniently though, rates of infection by each/different diseases in each country are not disaggregated, which would be help the scores be more informative.


    http://humanvarieties.org/2013/03/12/hvgiq-the-bahamas/

    The IQ of the Bahamas is 93, this indicates a black Bahamian IQ of at least ca. 90-91, if one assumes a non-black Bahamian IQ (the non-black 10% of the population being mostly a mix of whites, mixed-race black/white mulattos and South Asians) of 100 (the non-black fraction, combined, likely has an IQ less than that, so the black Bahamian IQ may be in fact be higher: ca. 91-92)

    Blacks in Bermuda have scored at about the white average on g-loaded tests (on the most recent and largest test cognitive of Bermudan adults in 2003).

    http://humanvarieties.org/2013/05/03/hvgiq-bermuda/

    Jamaica’s disease score 3.22 and iq (81 according to Malloy’s more accurate analysis of Lynn’s data) correlation, however seem to (albeit) roughly) parallel those of India and Pakistan's also low 80’s (the same is seem in the cases a few other Caribbean and Latin American countries’).
    So the correlation (iq depressing disease to iq score) looks to be a reasonably good one (as Eppig contends) so far (as far as I can tell).

    Lynn does seem to have misrepresented the data in the case of the Caribbean (and perhaps Africa). In the Jamaican data (as Malloy finds), higher scores were omitted for no apparent reason.

    http://humanvarieties.org/2013/03/01/hvgiq-jamaica/

    Chuck/John Fuerst also has some re-estimates of Caribbean IQ for several countries at his blog, but unfortionately it seems to have, for the time being, been made private.
    I'll post the link anyway:
    https://z139.wordpress.com/2012/09/08/caribbean-national-iq-re-estimates/

    In many cases in the link, the more mixed Caribbean countries (like; Puerto Rico, The Dominican republic, Belize, Guyana; with some in the 70’s) do not score higher, or they score lower, than more black ones (such as; Dominica, the Bahamas, Barbados, Jamaica). The figures do not really tend to follow the (racial) patterns suggested by Lynn, and Fuerst posits there that many of Lynn's figures for the region were likely inaccurately low.
    It may also be that over history, disease burdens in some of these places (Africa, etc.) were less (have fluctuated over time).

    "Selection of immigrants cannot be explanation, because of regression to the mean, those children should have, on average, lower IQ than their even highly-selected parents."

    There is that fact (they perform above the migrant generation), as well the fact that they score above the UK average (in the case of Nigerians both Igbo and Yoruba, Ghanaians, and Zimbabweans of the Shona ethnic group), which is quite different from the performance of African American children with elite/higher socio-economic level parents, who seem to score below both their parents and the national average (as Chisala noted in "Closing the Black-White Gap Debate, Part 3").

    I also wonder if there might not be some epigenetic component in the low performance of African Americans—perhaps idle speculation at this early stage—(as well as a cultural component. The particular culture of African Americans is unlikely to help foster high intellectual achievement, not surprising given their specialized history as chattel slaves—some of which I referred to in the discussion about slave breeding—, whether or not significant negative genetic selection took place during slavery, the cultural effects were great and defining. And African Americans continue to largely exist and maintain themselves as an alienated and culturally marginalized caste-like subgroup in American society, without much assimilation, and some of the disadvantageous or disfunctional cultural/socialization patterns still seem to continue to some degree among many socio-economically middle-higher class African Americans).
    Very little seems to be currently known about the possible epigenetic influences on cognition—whether they may be at all significant (the possibility seems to often be downplayed by those on the right and given the opposite treatment by leftists—but my impression is that not much is known yet either way)—and it may also be (somewhat complicating things further) that some (racial/population) groups are (genetically) more susceptible to certain potential environmental and epigenetic depressors (that effect cognition) than others are.

    Thanks a lot for the links.

    I am very hesitant to accept any explanation involving epigenetics at the time. It would have to last few generations; at which point why has to ask why descendants of people living in abject poverty (in case of my country, descendants of serfs) have not IQ on the levels comparable to black Americans. It’s not that I claim “serfs were slaves”, but the serfs were also permanently malnourished, uneducated, often drunk, dirty and even considered biologically worse (in terms of the time; nobles were supposedly descendants of conquerors, and serfs were not, or were sons of Cham, or whatever). Also, both american blacks and afrocaribeans were enslaved, so how “epigenetics” would explain higher scores of the latter?

    The question is also about racial admixture in Bahamas/Barbados etc. I really doubted it is non-existent and indeed quick google claims white admixture is at 10% (+-2) in black Barbadians, and even higher in Jamaica (12.4+-3.5). If whites have higher average IQ, then admixture should raise Barbadian average. Your point about more mixed countries is valid, though; Spain national IQ supposed to be 98, so the slightly lower scores than English cannot explain the differences given higher admixture.

    Which creates even more puzzles.

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    • Replies: @Jm8
    "I am very hesitant to accept any explanation involving epigenetics at the time. It would have to last few generations..."

    That's understandable, since it's not yet well understood. I myself am still uncertain, though I suspect it figures in as a factor (along with the cultural)—but hopefully more information will be available in not too long.

    As for lasting generations, I think this may be possible to a certain extent especially (one might speculate) where the cultural environment (a drastically distinct way of life/mode of socialization created as an adaptation to a history of great trauma, also recreating some of said trauma) of the group (e.g. African Americans) continues and may help to maintain some of it (maintaining aspects of the cultural/psychological environment and continuing to stimulate or maintain certain epigenetic effects/switches for continuing generations) , which I suspect it does (generally their ways of socialization are heavily shaped by their historical societal role)

    "at which point why has to ask why descendants of people living in abject poverty (in case of my country, descendants of serfs) have not IQ on the levels comparable to black Americans."

    Perhaps. But though they may not have IQs on the level of black Americans, in many countries the lower classes in general do tend to score somewhat lower in IQ than those of higher classes, sometimes significantly (though of course some of that could likely also be genetic—in the usual sense—and/or cultural). But as far as I know (though you would of course likely know better than I about Poland) that the descendants of serfs in Poland (and most other places) do not occupy the same rigidly marginal—to the same degree (in such a defined way, normally class, though stratified, is a continuum and somewhat less rigid) and caste-like position as African Americans in the same way.
    In the black American case, there is still (often in practice) a clear division between them and the larger society with little assimilation—historically assimilation was impossible (making the many of the practices/particularities they developed as slaves and more likely to persist, for a while at least, once official discrimination is gone—this being different from the racial systems in Latin America or Europe and the UK, or most European class systems).


    "...Also, both american blacks and afrocaribeans were enslaved, so how “epigenetics” would explain higher scores of the latter?"

    I suspect poverty might not be not the only cause of that sort of effect,
    (My idea would be that it may relate to the fact that) The form of slavery that existed in the United States was in general many ways especially psychologically dehumanizing compared to other places—the form in took in the US being sometimes known as "the peculiar institution" (in some of the ways I mentioned in some earlier comments)
    (Though I think Caribbean slavery could often be very (perhaps at times more) harsh in other ways (esp physically: physically dangerous and in the severity of punishments for attempted escape)

    There is evidence that epigenetic effects can result from certain psychological experiences/traumas, (but it is far from known yet for sure which types off experiences, what effects, and to what degree.)


    Interestingly/notably, Bahamians (and Barbadians and Jamaicans) have less white admixture than black Americans (only about 12%, as you mentioned, on average—which would/should not be enough to have much or any effect on IQ).

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  • @Afrosapiens

    As you get familiar with Polish language you will discover that you do not like some words and consider them disparaging for right or wrong reason (like some African-Americans do not like the word niggardly). Also you will feel lonely so you will try to develop contacts with other people of you phenotype. You may start organizing to create a lobby, so you start African Anti-Defamation League and start a campaign on purging Polish language from offensive (to you) words.
     
    Well, I can tell from my own life that what you describe here is fictional. I grew up in almost exclusively white social circles, my family is life, I never wanted to meet black people just to hang out with black people as if I felt alone among whites. As for words, I doubt Polish language has anti-black words, French language doesn't have some racial slurs that no one feel socially acceptable, there are no words with racist undertones in common use. I have personally never been targeted by any sort of racist attack so I don't get your implying that such reactions are inborn and inevitable. It's an American thing. Multiculturalism fails in the US because American culture makes it impossible and Americans lie to themselves about it. But many other countries have the ability to have peaceful race relations and become actual melting pots where minorities are absorbed in the majority through intermarriage.

    Then it may occur to you that your community would fare better if there was more of you, so you start lobbing for increased immigration from Haiti and Africa.
     
    Why would I join a community? I can make Polish friends, my kids can marry Poles, and we can all feel assimilated. That's basically how I live having been adopted, I'm black, that's the way I look, but that's not the way I am. I am French, I could become a Pole likewise.

    They will ask: why do they mess with our language? Nobody was ever offended until these people arrived here. Poles will begin to develop racial identity that they never possessed because they were blissfully innocent. You get the idea.

     

    Nah, the overwhelming majority doesn't care. No one one wakes up thinking "I'm black", "I'm white", "I'm blue". You're only reminded of those things if someone treats you as such instead of treating you like a person.

    Why do Poles need to go through it if they can avoid it.
     
    But that'd be something they'd make up on their own and for which they'd be the only ones to care. Moreover, the examples you referred to before are very typical of America's identity politics, I can't imagine things like this making headlines in France and I think most other European countries.

    They do not want to start the cycle.
     
    Well, they're about safe for the moment because Poland is a country that people leave much more than a country where people move to.

    “Being human enough” has nothing to do with it. Nobody thinks in these terms.
     
    Oh really? You've never heard about people claiming that some humans were more human than others? Or that humans were equal, but some were still more equal than others? A lot of people do think in those terms, that's why there is the Pioneer Fund & Cie.

    But people think in pragmatic terms like “they will not fit”, “there will be tensions”, “we do not want changes that this will initiate”, “they will never be like us” Mankind is an abstract term.
     
    I call that thinking in pessimistic/paranoid ways. And anyway, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Well, I can tell from my own life that what you describe here is fictional. I grew up in almost exclusively white social circles, my family is life, I never wanted to meet black people just to hang out with black people as if I felt alone among whites. As for words, I doubt Polish language has anti-black words,

    The problem utu has described actually already happened. A black immigrant from Cameroon called Simon Mol started a campaign to remove Polish word “murzyn”, because he thought it is offensive. Now, “murzyn” is neutral word describing black people. Later he also campaigned for people to realise that children’s poem “murzynek Bambo” is awful and racist. He got the leftist award for “anti-racist of the year”. He is also known to f* with a lot of white girls, telling them that if they insist that he wears condom it means they are prejudiced and racist. So they f* without a condom. Later it appeared that he has AIDS and he infected some dozen plus Polish women. Most likelyu consciously, because he was tested to be HIV positive when he came to Poland.

    Later also appeared that he was not actually persecuted journalist, that he got a flat which was destined to the poorest families with many children.

    Actually I also met black on youtube, who claimed he knew Polish yet he spoke English all the time, who tried to convince me I should use “czarny” instead of”murzyn”, despite “czarny” (ie black) in Polish would be IMO more offensive than “murzyn”.

    So yeah, what utu has described is all reasonable. We do not need racial tensions, affirmative actions and insane leftist going around screaming “yo racist!” at everyone.

    I am French, I could become a Pole likewise.

    That’s not for you to decide. Besides, “Pole” does not mean “Polish citizen”. Not all Polish citizens are Poles. Not all Poles are Polish citizens.

    In theory, black person could become Pole, that’s true; if you would love our language, culture as your own, if you would defend our monuments, take our history as your history, think about our heroes as about your heroes, cry when we cry, love what we love, hate what we hate; sure, why not. But you cannot just start eating pierogies, speaking broken Polish and claim you are Pole (I have to yet met black person who would speak good Polish without accent and massacring all the “ć”, “cz”, “ś”, “sz”, “ż” and “ź”, “dź”, “dż” and so on…). We could accept few such people, why not. Ten, hundred, maybe. But no tens of thousands.

    But anyway, you already showing your attitude when you are using word “privilege” instead of “human right”.

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens

    The problem utu has described actually already happened. A black immigrant from Cameroon called Simon Mol started a campaign to remove Polish word “murzyn”, because he thought it is offensive.
     
    That was more than ten years ago, what changed since then? And how can one even remove a word?

    In any case, if someone works, pays taxes and contributes to the prosperity of a country, he's entitled to complain about whatever he dislikes, whether it's a supposedly racist word or potholes on the streets. But let's not give it more importance than it has, those words don't hurt if they're not used in an offensive way. They're just potholes on the street. I actually mind potholes more than any word of dubious connotation. We're talking about racist words, but there are also sexist insults. Women are entitled to complain about words like "bitch", but no one would say those complaints threaten the social fabric.

    He got the leftist award for “anti-racist of the year”.
     
    And? What did it change in your life? Just don't read the headlines that you dislike.

    We do not need racial tensions, affirmative actions and insane leftist going around screaming “yo racist!” at everyone.
     
    No, you just need to not care about it if you don't feel concerned.

    That’s not for you to decide. Besides, “Pole” does not mean “Polish citizen”. Not all Polish citizens are Poles. Not all Poles are Polish citizens.
     
    The law decides, as a European Union citizen, I'm allowed to live and work in Poland. Then I can see how the Polish law asks me in order to become a Polish citizen. So you don't decide more than me, only the law decides.

    But you cannot just start eating pierogies, speaking broken Polish and claim you are Pole (I have to yet met black person who would speak good Polish without accent and massacring all the “ć”, “cz”, “ś”, “sz”, “ż” and “ź”, “dź”, “dż” and so on…). We could accept few such people, why not. Ten, hundred, maybe. But no tens of thousands.
     
    France has assimilated millions of blacks and other non-whites, or whites like Poles, the way the overwhelming majority of speak French is indistinguishable from the natives, so is the way they dress. So Poland can do it it to, unless it doesn't want to.

    But anyway, you already showing your attitude when you are using word “privilege” instead of “human right”.
     
    Tribalism is a privilege, not a human right.
    , @Afrosapiens
    By the way, how would you write "szopen" in English so that it would approximate the Polish pronunciation?
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  • @RaceRealist88

    However, the fact that practice can improve RT does not mean that differences can be all attributed to practice – in fact, the variation in amount of practice in tested population might be source of low g-loading in tasks.
     
    The point is, there are too many factors that influence RT, so in my opinion, it's not a good 'biological correlate' for 'g' (whatever that is).

    However, it still does not mean the practice is the result of the white/black gaps, because that would require whites to be more involved in tasks causing them to “practice” RT
     
    Can you quote me where I said this?

    If are test is biased, but biased similarly for two population, it can still crudely measure a real difference between those two populations, which is all that is needed here.
     
    I don't think it's 'biased' but there may be different prepardness factors that influence scores.

    And on RT:

    In other words, low-IQ subjects regularly produce RTs equal to those of high-IQ subjects, but with less consistency over trials. This lack of consistency] may well reflect poor self-confidence and high test anxiety and their effects on information processing, incursions of extraneous cognitions, sensory distractions and so on. This interpretation is reinforced by Jensen’s 1998 (p. 224) report that RT significantly correlates (–.45) with Extraversion scores on the Eysenck Personality Inventory. Ratings on the EPI are related to high self-efficacy beliefs, self-confidence, freedom-from anxiety and other aspects of ‘emotional well-being’ (Peterson, Maier, & Seligman, 1993). Again it seems reasonable to suggest that any common source of variance in IQ and ECTs originates in the sociocognitive-affective nexus described above.

    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.110.9895&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    I doubt that g is a biological variable. Variance can be explained with other factors that don't involve this illusory 'g', and numerous other factors that may affect preparedness and readiness in regards to RT. Variance in RT can be explained without appealing to the mystical 'g'.

    People, who believed in their innate intelligence were worse at learning, which is surprising; and those who were more confident of their answers, were more likely to learn correct answers after answering wrong
     
    Not too surprising for me. Confidence is very important (which is linked to motivation).

    Now, given the experiences with all the claims about “priming effect” etc, it’s hard to take too much from one study, which tests general knowledge, and where “learning” consists of showing correct answer for 2 seconds. As such, I don’t know whether the paper is relevant to discussion on IQ testing and “g” at all.
     
    Isn't learning/education correlated with 'g' though? This is completely relevant to the discussion.

    The question is what about the g-loading of such scores.
     
    I don't know. I'll look into it.

    I can honestly get behind that idea that IQ tests test the ability to do well in a Western nation (on average of course), and that it's a surrogate for social class.

    Can you quote me where I said this? [the RT and white/black gap]

    You haven’t, but due to the context where I brought RT, I thought you are discussing about it in order to dismiss RT as any kind of evidence.

    However, I still think even if RT is imperfect, the differences found can be valid.

    It’s like measuring temperature changes. You measure temperature at bunch of point. After few years you measure temperature at the same points. Now, you had not measured the exact temperature of the whole area; there maybe were some noise factors influencing temperature at each of the point – so maybe it’s the the best idea to get the average of those point as the area temperature. However, it i reasonable to calculate the difference between two such averages and conclude that temperature has decreased/increased, don’t you think?

    Isn’t learning/education correlated with ‘g’ though? This is completely relevant to the discussion.

    Sure, but here the learning consisted of being shown a correct answer for two seconds.

    I can honestly get behind that idea that IQ tests test the ability to do well in a Western nation (on average of course), and that it’s a surrogate for social class.

    How would you explain then that IQ is better predictor than social class?

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    • Replies: @RaceRealist88

    I thought you are discussing about it in order to dismiss RT as any kind of evidence.
     
    I dismiss RT as a whole as a 'biological correlate' of 'g' due to the trainability of RT.

    However, I still think even if RT is imperfect, the differences found can be valid.
     
    I disagree. Given the pitfalls and other explanatory factors of the observed variance, how can you think that the "differences found" would be valid, say, in a genetic sense, meaning that on average, those with a faster RT will score higher on IQ tests and therefore RT correlates with 'intelligence' or 'g' (whatever they are).

    However, it i reasonable to calculate the difference between two such averages and conclude that temperature has decreased/increased, don’t you think?
     
    I like the analogy, but I still disagree. If there are numerous confounds/other explanations other than the observed variance in 'g' other than 'processing speed', then it is not a good 'biological measure' of 'g'. Therefore, RT is not a good 'biological correlate' of g.

    Also read the paper I linked about RT and IQ being 'too complicated' and that 'revealing a significant correlation depends on various variables (e.g. methodology, data analysis, instrument etc.).'

    http://journals.bmsu.ac.ir/ijmr/index.php/ijmr/article/view/29/72

    There's too much 'going on' to say 'aha! He has a faster RT, therefore higher 'processing speed', therefore is more likely to score higher on IQ tests and be 'intelligent' (whatever that is)!!'

    Sure, but here the learning consisted of being shown a correct answer for two seconds.
     
    Quoting relevant part:

    Next, the feedback sequence began with a 2 s period during which the screen was blank. A fixation crosshair then appeared centrally for 2.5 s followed by the performance-relevant feedback, which consisted of a green asterisk/high tone (positive feedback) or red asterisk/low tone (negative feedback), presented for 1 s. Another crosshair then was presented for 2.5 s, allowing students to prepare for the learning-relevant feedback, which consisted of the correct answer to the question, presented in white for 2 s. This information appeared regardless of whether the students’ initial answer had been correct or incorrect.

    This first portion of the experiment concluded when the student had completed a minimum of 10 trials in all conditions (described below), or had been tested for 3 h, whichever came first. The EEG cap was then removed. After ∼8 min, the student returned to the computer to begin the second phase, which consisted of a surprise retest on all the questions they had answered incorrectly at the first test. Only at the start of the retest were students told that the questions they would be answering were those they had initially gotten wrong. During debriefing, all participants reported being surprised about the retest.

    How would you explain then that IQ is better predictor than social class?
     
    IQ better predictor than what? Citation?
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  • @szopen
    I must correct myself - I've googled a bit and it seems that malnutrition is still shockingly high for his GDP per capita. Hence, the idea that in Nigeria there are people more close to genetical potential (not necesarily the elites - simply the people who receive minimal hypotethical calories etc intake versus those, who don't), resulting in a distribution deviating from normal (with very heavy fat tail) is much better.

    Once again, I need more data.

    It could be (in the cases of some or many groups) lower than the general white average, but 80-85 as a genotypic IQ (in Africa) seems a bit low (in the case of most groups or overall at least), partly for some of the reasons you outlined in comment 758 (and other reasons below). But I think “as high as 90 (and even higher for some subpopulations)” as you also suggest as a possibility, does seem plausible (or perhaps low or low-mid 90s in some groups—and possibly higher in some other subgroups).

    The performance black populations in certain Caribbean countries (two in particular, that seem to have relatively high/widespread education and high living standards) is around the 90s: the Bahamas has a score of 93 and more recently the black population of Bermuda matches whites on some g-loaded tests (that is of course assuming the validity of g).

    Interestingly disease burden (and other environmental depressors associated with it including malnutrition, and it likely figures in significantly along with malnutrition) seems to correlate decently well with country iq across several racial groups, albeit somewhat loosely (In the Indian subcontinent, the Caribbean, and to some degree in Latin America), especially if one takes Malloy and Fuerst’s re-analyses (below) into account—unfortunately the (disease burden score to IQ) page’s below’s IQ figures for Africa and the Caribbean seem to be based largely on Lynn and thus may be inaccurately low/underestimated.

    (figure label in the link below labeled “Global Infectious Disease Deaths by Region 2004” from the work of Christopher Eppig, near top,)

    http://affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/2010/08/sickness-makes-you-stupid.html

    The Bahamas (which is 90% black, see my comments in the Bahamas link) have a significant disease burden (3.47) esp. compared to the first world (so some perhaps small remaining IQ depressing effect due to that factor is not out of the question)—but low malaria compared to many of its neighbors— and is relatively wealthy for the Caribbean, but a higher measured iq score (93—about the same as much of the Middle East and parts of South East Asia—, according to the most up-to-date analysis from Jason Malloy) than India (81-82) whose disease burden is only a little higher at 3.79 (but scores similarly in IQ to some other South/South East Asian countries with similar disease burden scores. I speculate that this may at least partly relate to a relatively lower rate of malaria in particular in the Bahamas than elsewhere in the Caribbean, Africa, India etc, but I could be wrong.) All/virtually all Africa’s (as well as Haiti’s) disease burden scores are higher than S. Asia’s; being mostly about 4.30-40 and up. Inconveniently though, rates of infection by each/different diseases in each country are not disaggregated, which would be help the scores be more informative.

    http://humanvarieties.org/2013/03/12/hvgiq-the-bahamas/

    The IQ of the Bahamas is 93, this indicates a black Bahamian IQ of at least ca. 90-91, if one assumes a non-black Bahamian IQ (the non-black 10% of the population being mostly a mix of whites, mixed-race black/white mulattos and South Asians) of 100 (the non-black fraction, combined, likely has an IQ less than that, so the black Bahamian IQ may be in fact be higher: ca. 91-92)

    Blacks in Bermuda have scored at about the white average on g-loaded tests (on the most recent and largest test cognitive of Bermudan adults in 2003).

    http://humanvarieties.org/2013/05/03/hvgiq-bermuda/

    Jamaica’s disease score 3.22 and iq (81 according to Malloy’s more accurate analysis of Lynn’s data) correlation, however seem to (albeit) roughly) parallel those of India and Pakistan’s also low 80’s (the same is seem in the cases a few other Caribbean and Latin American countries’).
    So the correlation (iq depressing disease to iq score) looks to be a reasonably good one (as Eppig contends) so far (as far as I can tell).

    Lynn does seem to have misrepresented the data in the case of the Caribbean (and perhaps Africa). In the Jamaican data (as Malloy finds), higher scores were omitted for no apparent reason.

    http://humanvarieties.org/2013/03/01/hvgiq-jamaica/

    Chuck/John Fuerst also has some re-estimates of Caribbean IQ for several countries at his blog, but unfortionately it seems to have, for the time being, been made private.
    I’ll post the link anyway:

    https://z139.wordpress.com/2012/09/08/caribbean-national-iq-re-estimates/

    In many cases in the link, the more mixed Caribbean countries (like; Puerto Rico, The Dominican republic, Belize, Guyana; with some in the 70’s) do not score higher, or they score lower, than more black ones (such as; Dominica, the Bahamas, Barbados, Jamaica). The figures do not really tend to follow the (racial) patterns suggested by Lynn, and Fuerst posits there that many of Lynn’s figures for the region were likely inaccurately low.
    It may also be that over history, disease burdens in some of these places (Africa, etc.) were less (have fluctuated over time).

    “Selection of immigrants cannot be explanation, because of regression to the mean, those children should have, on average, lower IQ than their even highly-selected parents.”

    There is that fact (they perform above the migrant generation), as well the fact that they score above the UK average (in the case of Nigerians both Igbo and Yoruba, Ghanaians, and Zimbabweans of the Shona ethnic group), which is quite different from the performance of African American children with elite/higher socio-economic level parents, who seem to score below both their parents and the national average (as Chisala noted in “Closing the Black-White Gap Debate, Part 3″).

    I also wonder if there might not be some epigenetic component in the low performance of African Americans—perhaps idle speculation at this early stage—(as well as a cultural component. The particular culture of African Americans is unlikely to help foster high intellectual achievement, not surprising given their specialized history as chattel slaves—some of which I referred to in the discussion about slave breeding—, whether or not significant negative genetic selection took place during slavery, the cultural effects were great and defining. And African Americans continue to largely exist and maintain themselves as an alienated and culturally marginalized caste-like subgroup in American society, without much assimilation, and some of the disadvantageous or disfunctional cultural/socialization patterns still seem to continue to some degree among many socio-economically middle-higher class African Americans).
    Very little seems to be currently known about the possible epigenetic influences on cognition—whether they may be at all significant (the possibility seems to often be downplayed by those on the right and given the opposite treatment by leftists—but my impression is that not much is known yet either way)—and it may also be (somewhat complicating things further) that some (racial/population) groups are (genetically) more susceptible to certain potential environmental and epigenetic depressors (that effect cognition) than others are.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    Thanks a lot for the links.

    I am very hesitant to accept any explanation involving epigenetics at the time. It would have to last few generations; at which point why has to ask why descendants of people living in abject poverty (in case of my country, descendants of serfs) have not IQ on the levels comparable to black Americans. It's not that I claim "serfs were slaves", but the serfs were also permanently malnourished, uneducated, often drunk, dirty and even considered biologically worse (in terms of the time; nobles were supposedly descendants of conquerors, and serfs were not, or were sons of Cham, or whatever). Also, both american blacks and afrocaribeans were enslaved, so how "epigenetics" would explain higher scores of the latter?

    The question is also about racial admixture in Bahamas/Barbados etc. I really doubted it is non-existent and indeed quick google claims white admixture is at 10% (+-2) in black Barbadians, and even higher in Jamaica (12.4+-3.5). If whites have higher average IQ, then admixture should raise Barbadian average. Your point about more mixed countries is valid, though; Spain national IQ supposed to be 98, so the slightly lower scores than English cannot explain the differences given higher admixture.

    Which creates even more puzzles.
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  • @Jm8
    (you are correct in that) the Igbo tend to be (currently) one of the more mercantile groups in Africa (among others)—many ethnic groups in Nigeria and certain other parts of W. Africa have a long history of commerce, of course ithat varied quite a bit regionally. They're not Jewish though, (their ancestry is genetically entirely indigenous subsaharan African, and most similar to other West Africans, especially—as one would expect—to those of their general region).

    I was merely referting to the figure of speech – like calling Tamils the Jews of (south) Asia – though I do recall some fanciful attributions of ancestral Jewishness in various unlikely parts of the world.

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  • @Afrosapiens

    It doesn’t mean that students of all of them aren’t rather special in terms of the alleles they possess for cognitive ability.
     
    Did you read that quote? He basically says all of them are selected for genes of cognitive ability, whether it's STEM or something socially productive like law.

    And he makes this assumption as if the correlation between education and the genetic part of cognitive ability is perfect, which is far from true.

    You really need to learn how to apply the “all, some, none” distinctions in a clarifying rather than obfuscating manner.
     
    You, learn to mind your own business especially when you don't get it, which is approximately 90% of the time.

    You overstate my (stated and actual) position when you toss in the word “perfect” presumably for rhetorical effect. I would be very surprised if neuroscience and genetics wouldn’t one day find that there were similar favourable haplotypes for cogbitive abilities in both the Ivies and MIT and Caltech. What would surprise you?

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  • @Afrosapiens

    As you get familiar with Polish language you will discover that you do not like some words and consider them disparaging for right or wrong reason (like some African-Americans do not like the word niggardly). Also you will feel lonely so you will try to develop contacts with other people of you phenotype. You may start organizing to create a lobby, so you start African Anti-Defamation League and start a campaign on purging Polish language from offensive (to you) words.
     
    Well, I can tell from my own life that what you describe here is fictional. I grew up in almost exclusively white social circles, my family is life, I never wanted to meet black people just to hang out with black people as if I felt alone among whites. As for words, I doubt Polish language has anti-black words, French language doesn't have some racial slurs that no one feel socially acceptable, there are no words with racist undertones in common use. I have personally never been targeted by any sort of racist attack so I don't get your implying that such reactions are inborn and inevitable. It's an American thing. Multiculturalism fails in the US because American culture makes it impossible and Americans lie to themselves about it. But many other countries have the ability to have peaceful race relations and become actual melting pots where minorities are absorbed in the majority through intermarriage.

    Then it may occur to you that your community would fare better if there was more of you, so you start lobbing for increased immigration from Haiti and Africa.
     
    Why would I join a community? I can make Polish friends, my kids can marry Poles, and we can all feel assimilated. That's basically how I live having been adopted, I'm black, that's the way I look, but that's not the way I am. I am French, I could become a Pole likewise.

    They will ask: why do they mess with our language? Nobody was ever offended until these people arrived here. Poles will begin to develop racial identity that they never possessed because they were blissfully innocent. You get the idea.

     

    Nah, the overwhelming majority doesn't care. No one one wakes up thinking "I'm black", "I'm white", "I'm blue". You're only reminded of those things if someone treats you as such instead of treating you like a person.

    Why do Poles need to go through it if they can avoid it.
     
    But that'd be something they'd make up on their own and for which they'd be the only ones to care. Moreover, the examples you referred to before are very typical of America's identity politics, I can't imagine things like this making headlines in France and I think most other European countries.

    They do not want to start the cycle.
     
    Well, they're about safe for the moment because Poland is a country that people leave much more than a country where people move to.

    “Being human enough” has nothing to do with it. Nobody thinks in these terms.
     
    Oh really? You've never heard about people claiming that some humans were more human than others? Or that humans were equal, but some were still more equal than others? A lot of people do think in those terms, that's why there is the Pioneer Fund & Cie.

    But people think in pragmatic terms like “they will not fit”, “there will be tensions”, “we do not want changes that this will initiate”, “they will never be like us” Mankind is an abstract term.
     
    I call that thinking in pessimistic/paranoid ways. And anyway, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    French language doesn’t have some racial slurs that no one feel socially acceptable

    French language does have some racial slurs that no one feel socially acceptable

    I’m tired and distracted, I make lots of typos and wrong word choices. I’m back to you tomorrow utu.

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  • @Afrosapiens
    Well, yeah and he seems to think American culture of race relations has to be universal. It's weird from him because he seems to live life like people of all colors and religions could get along by just meeting each other. So I don't get where all this pessimism comes from.

    he seems to think American culture of race relations has to be universal

    My experiences are American. In many areas America sets the tone and American solutions are often adopted by others because they cater to the lowest common denominator, to the bottom line. So there is a possibility it will become universal. Just look at police brutality: American police is not getting less brutal but many other countries police forces become more like American police.

    he seems to live life like people of all colors and religions could get along by just meeting each other

    I am trying my best but I am finding that this requires lots of effort and lots of energy that otherwise could have been spent on something more productive than the constant dance of mending fences, tip toeing, avoidance, unnecessary confrontations, that would be totally unnecessary in the mono-ethnic, mono-cultural society. All natural tensions and conflicts because of natural competition for resources are exacerbated when you throw in different ethnic groups into the system. This is mathematically obvious: extra variables tend to increase chaos and cause unstable behavior. Even if we had a luxury of creating a utopia from a scratch with babies of many races w/o any cultural baggage raised in the same beliefs the process of clusterization eventually would occur along the racial lines (external phenotype) because the race is that extra mathematical parameter that will increase system instability. So this utopia will evolve to something more prone to internal conflicts than a similar utopia devoid of this extra parameter of race.

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens

    In many areas America sets the tone and American solutions are often adopted by others because they cater to the lowest common denominator, to the bottom line. So there is a possibility it will become universal.
     
    Thanks god many peculiarities of America won't spread internationally. Second amendment won't spread to Europe, total free speech won't spread to Europe, minimalist welfare state won't spread to Europe.

    America responded to diversity by official segregation. Jim Crow did more harm to race relations than slavery. Had reconstruction lasted until not needed anymore, the black population would have been absorbed in a Latin American way. But Jim Crow delayed the process by one century and gave birth to ideologies and attitudes that still live on.

    There is no such thing in France (and the rest of Europe I guess), the black population is not alienated, Muslims are in opposition to the mainstream but it's something they made up on their own and that jeopardizes their assimilation prospects. Although it's not that bad for them, much better than for black Americans.

    Here are some 2008 French stats, assimilation is probably even higher now:

    -Education
    https://i.imgur.com/KTHtDfg.png

    -Intermarriage
    https://i.imgur.com/h3MsKR9.png

    source: https://www.ined.fr/fichier/s_rubrique/19558/dt168_teo.fr.pdf

    We learn that:

    -A little more than 50% of descendants of immigrants actually have one native French parent.
    -more than 50% of second generation male and female immigrants from the Gulf of Guinea, Southeast Asian and Europe are married or in cohabitation with a native French
    -second generation Blacks from the Gulf of Guinea and the Caribbean, South East Asians and Europeans have tertiary degrees at the same or superior rates as Native French.
    -Muslim groups (Turks, North Africans and Sahelian Africans) have lower educational attainment and intermarriage rates than other groups. But a substantial part are also mixed and the educational gaps are narrower than in the US and the intermarriage rates are higher than for Black Americans, except for Turkish women.

    So the assimilation process is very fast in France and the educational gaps narrow. So the country is becoming mixed but not like Brazil because most minorities are similarly or more educated than than the native population. That's a very sustainable situation.

    I am trying my best but I am finding that this requires lots of effort and lots of energy that otherwise could have been spent on something more productive than the constant dance of mending fences
     
    Elaborate, I don't get it. Are you implying that it's an effort to get along with people of different races? I never felt that way, it never made a difference for me. The only time I found myself in an awkward situation was with a Chechen classmate. French people usually kiss each other on cheeks as a greeting for women. I knew that she was from a very conservative family and that she'd only shake hands with a man. But one day I saw her on the street and I forgot this detail so I went to kiss her and she went "what are you trying to do?", it was awkward but I just said sorry I forgot and it was forgotten right away. That's it. It's the only experience of cultural misunderstanding that I can remember in my life. Ethnic jokes are a usual part of my life though, but they're cool, I'm black, my girlfriend is North African and Jewish, so there is matter to make fun of the stereotypes of our respective origins. The irony is that I'm the Jew at home money-wise.

    All natural tensions and conflicts because of natural competition for resources are exacerbated when you throw in different ethnic groups into the system.
     
    I'm not talking about general social dynamics, I'm talking about how individuals relate to each others in real life. I'm wondering, do race-relations headlines affect the way you relate with your friends or strangers of different race?

    Even if we had a luxury of creating a utopia from a scratch with babies of many races w/o any cultural baggage raised in the same beliefs the process of clusterization eventually would occur along the racial lines (external phenotype) because the race is that extra mathematical parameter that will increase system instability.

     

    I believe the exact oposite. From my own experience. I think racism is taught and children raised in the same conditions, without being taught to give importance to race and ethnicity grow up to become race-unaware. And that societies close to that ideal can exist and do exist.
    , @Okechukwu

    I am trying my best but I am finding that this requires lots of effort and lots of energy that otherwise could have been spent on something more productive than the constant dance of mending fences, tip toeing, avoidance, unnecessary confrontations, that would be totally unnecessary in the mono-ethnic, mono-cultural society.
     
    Then it's safe to say you'd prefer the war, rape, pillage, plunder, genocides, pogroms and wholesale carnage that characterized European history for millennia. Was "mono-ethnic" England, for example, a font of peace and comity? Diversity actually has a salutary effect as it sensitizes people to the values and traditions of others, making conflict less likely. Neither Europe nor America were model societies when they were less diverse. They are far, far better now.

    I'm sure you're aware that the most common type of war is civil war -- people of the same ethnicity and culture cutting each other to pieces. Mono-ethnic/cultural societies have never been free of conflict. They've always required tip toeing, fence mending, tolerance, negotiation and conflict resolution.
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  • @Afrosapiens
    Well, yeah and he seems to think American culture of race relations has to be universal. It's weird from him because he seems to live life like people of all colors and religions could get along by just meeting each other. So I don't get where all this pessimism comes from.

    Well, yeah and he seems to think American culture of race relations has to be universal. It’s weird from him because he seems to live life like people of all colors and religions could get along by just meeting each other. So I don’t get where all this pessimism comes from.

    American attitudes towards race are multivarious, generally trending toward greater diversity, inclusion and acceptance. Remember, we just had a president for 8 years whose father was a Kenyan immigrant. I know it’s often not easy for non-Americans to appreciate the nuances and shades of grey. Given media portrayals and rabid Internet keyboard racists, it’s easy to succumb to stereotypes.

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    • Replies: @Afrosapiens

    American attitudes towards race are multivarious, generally trending toward greater diversity, inclusion and acceptance.
     
    I'm under the impression that those Americans who claim to be colorblind do not exactly act and make life choices accordingly. They're colorblind, with caveats. In France it's different, even someone who admits to be somewhat prejudiced won't actually have race-conscious. What we call "racism" in France is rather xenophobia, some French people are simply bothered by people sticking to their foreign ways. But anyone who's culturally assimilated will be effortlessly accepted. And in the meantime, French culture appropriates many foreign elements, it's an exchange, and it's cool.

    Remember, we just had a president for 8 years whose father was a Kenyan immigrant. I know it’s often not easy for non-Americans to appreciate the nuances and shades of grey. Given media portrayals and rabid Internet keyboard racists, it’s easy to succumb to stereotypes.
     
    Sure, but only the US can be stereotyped this way, and not without reasons. When I see Black Lives Matters, I see that there are many white folks at their protests so I understand that not all Americans are racist. But I also know that what they're protesting against would not happen in France, even if Blacks were 14% or 30% of the population here.
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