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March of the Uyghurs
Again, The West Tries to Destroy China, Using Religion and Terror
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Syrian tank near Idlib facing Uyghurs and other terrorists

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Important note: The Uyghurs have managed to create a very old and deep culture. Most of them are good, law abiding citizens of the PRC. Also the great majority of followers of Sunni Islam are peaceful people. This work is addressing terrible problems related to extremism and terrorism, most of them crafted and then fueled by the West and its allies. The goal is to damage China. The victims live in various countries.

They are everywhere, where their Western, Gulf states and Turkish handlers want them to be.

Their combat as well as political cells and units are based in Syria and Indonesia, in Turkey and occasionally in Egypt.

When they are told to kill, they murder with unimaginable brutality; decapitating, or cutting to pieces priests, infants, old women.

They are China’s worst nightmare. They are unleashing religious fundamentalism and foreign-sponsored militant nationalism and separatism. They are potentially the greatest obstacle and danger to President’s Xi Jinping’s marvelous BRI (Belt and Road Initiative).

Both the West and Turkey are glorifying them; the most extremist of Uyghurs. They are financing and arming them. They are labelling them as victims. Uyghurs are now a new ‘secret weapon’, to be used against Beijing’s determined march forward, towards socialism with Chinese characteristics.

The West and its allies are doing all they can, to smear China (PRC), to derail its progressive course, and to arrest its increasingly positive and optimistic influence on all the corners of the world. They invent and then support/finance all imaginable and unimaginable adversaries of the Communist Party of China. Religious sects are the favorite ‘weapon’ used against China by both North America and Europe. That is true about the extremists who belong to Tibetan Buddhism, concentrated around an agent and darling of the Western intelligence agencies, the Dalai Lama. Or yet another radical Buddhist/Taoist extremist sect – Falun Gong.

The West does everything in its power to destroy China. It was clearly detectable 30 years ago during the so-called Tiananmen Square Incident (an event supported by the West, and later twisted by Western mass media), as it has been obvious during two recent ‘rebellions’ in Hong Kong, fully sponsored by Western organizations (NGOs) and governments.

The latest chapter of the anti-Chinese attacks, conducted by the West, is perhaps the most dangerous, and the ‘best crafted’ multi-national onslaught against the interests of both China (PRC) and the developing world, particularly the former Soviet republics of Central Asia.

It is the so-called Uyghur issue.

 

Uyghurs live predominantly in the northwest of China. They were recognized as ‘native’ in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of the People’s Republic of China. They belong to one of the 55 officially recognized ethnic minorities of China, and are predominantly of Muslim faith.

For decades, some Uyghurs fought for independence from China (before the Communist PRC was declared on October 1, 1949, there were at least two Uyghur independent states declared in the region, the one most known – the First East Turkestan Republic – with the help of the Soviet Union).

Since the formation of the PRC, China has offered equal rights and constantly improving standards of living to the Uyghur minority. However, several extremist Muslim factions have kept fighting, brutally, for a Turkic independent state. They have not been representing the majority of Uyghurs, but being against the PRC, have enjoyed moral and financial support from the West, its allies in Gulf states, and from Turkey.

Dr. Gaye Christofferson, wrote in September 2002, in her work “Constituting the Uyghur in U.S.-China Relations: The Geopolitics of Identity Formation in the War on Terrorism” how divisive the actions of the Uyghurs were on the territory of the PRC:

“Uyghur separatists and independence movements claim that the region is not a part of China, but that the Second East Turkestan Republic was illegally incorporated by the PRC in 1949 and has since been under Chinese occupation. Uyghur identity remains fragmented, as some support a Pan-Islamic vision, exemplified by the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, while others support a Pan-Turkic vision, such as the East Turkestan Liberation Organization. A third group would like a “Uyghurstan” state, such as the East Turkestan independence movement. As a result, “[n]o Uyghur or East Turkestan group speaks for all Uyghurs, although it might claim to”, and Uyghurs in each of these camps have committed violence against other Uyghurs who they think are too assimilated to Chinese or Russian society or are not religious enough.”

This was before the big propaganda push from the West; during the years when even Western academia was still relatively free to assess the situation in Xinjiang.

But soon after, the North American and European policy changed and radicalized.

In the West, the Uyghur issue was designated as ‘central’ and ‘essential’ to achieve three main goals:

  • To smear and humiliate China, portraying it as a country that ‘violates human rights’, ‘religious rights’ and the rights of minorities.
  • Uyghurs were literally inserted by NATO countries, including Turkey, into several violent combat zones: in Syria, Afghanistan and Indonesia, to name just a few, with one sole purpose: to train and to harden its fighters, who could be later deployed as de-stabilizing factors in China, Russia and former Soviet Central Asian Republics.
  • To sabotage great infrastructural projects, particularly the BRI. BRI is the brainchild of China’s President Xi Jinping. High-speed rail links, highways and other infrastructural arteries would be going through Xingjian, towards east. If brutal terrorist attacks backed by the West and its Islamist allies, and perpetrated by the Uyghur terrorists, would shake the region, the entire project which has been created in order to help to improve life for the entire humanity, (by wrestling various poor and developing countries from deadly Western neo-colonialist embrace), could be jeopardized, even collapse.

But what is really happening?

For several years, I investigated this ‘issue’; in China and Syria, in Turkey, Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan and Indonesia.

It is because I consider it to be one of the most important, and one of the most dangerous issue our planet is now facing.

I was able to trace patterns, and to find roots. What I discovered is disturbing and threatening. For China and for the world.

The “March of Uyghurs” is backed by “useful idiots”, all over the Western world, but also in Turkey, and elsewhere. They want to “defend victims”, but in this case, the ‘victims’ are actually ‘victimizers’ and usurpers.

Here I am putting my findings (and the findings of other colleagues and comrades) on the record. I do it so no one who is searching for truth would be able to say now or in ten years: “I did not know”, or “The information has not been available.”

ORDER IT NOW

Before we begin, let me point out how enormous the hypocrisy of the West is: The TIP (Turkistan Islamic Party, which is the militant wing of the Uyghur’s separatist Turkistan Islamic Movement (TIM)), has been designated as a terrorist organization by China. But not by China alone; also, by the European Union. Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Russia, United Arab Emirates, the United Kingdom, the United States, and Pakistan! The terrorists supported by the West and at least by part of its public, is designated as a terrorist organization by London, Brussels and Washington.

Using Western logic, it is obviously quite acceptable to train terrorists in Syria or Indonesia, for the horrible mass killing of Chinese people, but it is not acceptable to have them operate on the territory of European Union, or the United States.

 

The frontal Western attack against China and its actions in Xingjian began in 2018. Propaganda salvos were fired long before, but the ‘semi-official’ beginning of the ideological combat came in August 2018, when Reuters published a story with the title “UN says it has credible reports that China holds million Uighurs in secret camps.” It went like this:

“GENEVA (Reuters) – A United Nations human rights panel said on Friday that it had received many credible reports that 1 million ethnic Uighurs in China are held in what resembles a “massive internment camp that is shrouded in secrecy.”

Gay McDougall, a member of the U.N. Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, cited estimates that 2 million Uighurs and Muslim minorities were forced into “political camps for indoctrination” in the western Xinjiang autonomous region.

“We are deeply concerned at the many numerous and credible reports that we have received that in the name of combating religious extremism and maintaining social stability (China) has changed the Uighur autonomous region into something that resembles a massive internment camp that is shrouded in secrecy, a sort of ‘no rights zone’,” she told the start of a two-day regular review of China’s record, including Hong Kong and Macao.

China has said that Xinjiang faces a serious threat from Islamist militants and separatists who plot attacks and stir up tensions between the mostly Muslim Uighur minority who call the region home and the ethnic Han Chinese majority.”

F. William Engdahl, lashed at the Reuters report on pages of 21 Century Wire:

“In August Reuters published an article under the headline, “UN says it has credible reports that China holds million Uighurs in secret camps.” A closer look at the article reveals no official UN policy statement, but rather a quote from one American member of an independent committee that does not speak for the UN, a member with no background in China. The source of the claim it turns out is a UN independent advisory NGO called Committee on Elimination of Racial Discrimination. The sole person making the charge, American committee member Gay McDougall, stated she was “deeply concerned” about “credible reports.” McDougall cited no source for the dramatic charge.

Reuters in their article boosts its claim by citing a murky Washington DC based NGO, the Chinese Human Rights Defenders (CHRD). In an excellent background investigation, researchers at the Grayzone Project found that the CHRD gets hundreds of thousands of dollars from unnamed governments. The notorious US government NGO, National Endowment for Democracy, is high on the list of usual suspects. Notably, the CHRD official address is that of the Human Rights Watch which gets funds also from the Soros foundation.”

This is how the new chapter of anti-Chinese ideological attacks (and attempts to stop them) began.

And soon, they intensified. The Western propaganda apparatus unleashed dozens of articles, which, while claiming that China has been building several detention centers for Uyghurs in Xingjian, failed to provide any proof that extreme harsh measures were being applied against the religious and political extremists in Northwest China.

The most amateurish, speculation-based one, was printed on June 1, 2019, by The Telegraph (“China’s Uighur Muslims forced to eat and drink as Ramadan celebrations banned”):

“Beijing has long sought to arrest control of this resource-rich region where decades of government-encouraged migration of the Han – China’s ethnic majority – have fuelled resentment among Uighurs. The biggest outburst erupted in 2009 in Urumqi, the capital of Xinjiang, resulting in 200 deaths.

Now, the ruling Communist Party has launched a propaganda campaign about snuffing out “criminal” and “terrorist” activity. All across Xinjiang – meaning “new frontier” – are bright red banners reminding people to fight illegal, “cult” behaviour, listing hotlines to report suspicious activity.

“Love the Party, love the country,” hangs a streamer at one mosque, just above the metal detector. A highway billboard proclaims, “Secretary Xi is linked heart-to-heart with Xinjiang minorities,” referring to Chinese president Xi Jinping.

The government is working to present an image of a happy, peaceful Xinjiang, in efforts to boost tourism and attract investment; this is the linchpin for Mr. Xi’s Belt and Road initiative.”

Many thinkers, however, have been bravely putting this kind of ‘reporting’ into context. My close friend and co-author of our book “China and Ecological Civilization”, a leading U.S. philosopher and progressive theologian, John Cobb Jr., has many years of involvement in China. He wrote for this reportage:

“A standard tactic of the U.S. government is to create situations in which another government has little choice but to use violence. Its use of violence is then treated as proof that “regime-change” is needed. Sometimes it even justifies war. The Iranians shooting down an American spy drone, for example, almost led to an overt American attack on Iran. China has been placed in such a situation with regard to one of its Islamic minorities. There is real danger that the Uighurs will use violence against China. China thus far has responded by an effort at massive, compulsory re-education which can be depicted as forcing citizens to spend much of their time in “concentration camps.” That the minority is Islamic is then used in American propaganda to imply that China persecutes religion. Propaganda can also create anti-Chinese feeling among religious people all over the world, and especially among Muslims both in China and elsewhere.

If we think that anything that weakens those who refuse American domination is good, then we can admire the skill of the CIA. If we care for truth and justice, our task is to bring to light the cruelty and injustice of the subversion and the lies.”

 

UYGHURS IN TURKEY

The Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, ‘fell in love’ with Uyghurs when he served as the mayor of the country’s largest city – Istanbul. He erected a monument to them, and declared that the Turkish nation had roots in “Turkestan”.

He allowed hundreds of thousands of Uyghurs to migrate to Turkey.

Being a NATO-member country and at least in the past, one of the closest allies of the United States, Turkey readily helped the West with its colorful anti-Chinese campaign.

But that was not all. Far from it. NATO nations and their ultra-religious allies in the Gulf, decided to overthrow the Arab-socialist government in Damascus, Syria. Turkey readily participated in the ‘project’ from the very beginning, sacrificing its historic ties with the Assad family.

ORDER IT NOW

As early as in 2012, I investigated, with the help of the Turkish translator of my books, the so-called refugee camps in the border area of Hatay (with its ancient capital of Antakya). While several camps were truly serving as refugee centers, others like Apaydin, were training Syrian terrorists, as well as foreign jihadi fighters.

In those days, Serkan Koc, a leading Turkish left-wing documentary filmmaker, who has produced several groundbreaking works on the subject of the “Syrian opposition”, explained to me in Istanbul:

“Of course, you do realize that those people are not really ‘Syrian opposition.’ They are modern-day legionnaires collected from various Arab countries, including Qatar and Saudi Arabia, paid by Western imperialist powers. Some are members of Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. Most are militant Sunni Muslims. One could describe them as rogue elements hired to fight the Assad government.”

With help of the Mr. Koc’s contacts in Hatay, I managed to establish, as early as in 2012 and 2013, that some of the ‘legionnaires’ were actually Uyghurs. I also received confirmation that they were being smuggled from the Hatay area ‘camps’ directly into Syria, fully armed and equipped.

Terrorists were also trained at the NATO air force facility ‘Incerlik’, near the city of Adana. Exactly how many Uyghurs went through that air base, has so far not been established.

On the Syrian war front, the toughest, the most brutal and the most dangerous assassins in the presently terrorist-controlled area of Idlib, are Uyghurs. But this fact will be addressed in the following chapter of this report.

 

In Istanbul, I teamed-up with my colleague and comrade, Erkin Oncan, a leading Turkish journalist and thinker, who presently works for Sputnik. For years, he has been reporting on the movement of the Uyghurs.

Together, we visited the Zeitinburnu neighborhood on the outskirts of Istanbul, where we met Erkin’s colleagues, who took us on a ‘tour’ of significant Uyghur ‘landmarks’, including the office where Uyghurs have been recruited, allowed to work semi-legally, and then, many of them, sent to Syria and Iraq.

There are approximately 50,000 Uyghurs living in Turkey (10 million live in China and all over the world). Zeitinburnu, has the greatest concentration of Uyghurs in the country. Here they own businesses, restaurants. Old people enjoy a relaxed life, drinking tea and leading endless conversations in public places.

But this tranquil mood is only a façade. Here is where many Uyghurs arrive. From here, they get injected abroad, where they learn their deadly ‘trade’, how to become hardened and merciless fighters. They go to Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan or as far as Indonesia.

As early as on April 9, 2015, BGNNews.com in Istanbul, reported:

“The network is based out of Zeytinburnu, a district on Istanbul’s European side which is home to a community of Uighurs who live in Turkey. It is headed by Nurali T, a businessman who has been facilitating the movement of Uighurs from China to Syria and Iraq via Turkey since 2011. He is known by his code name Abbas. An individual who works for him, AG, says that a total of 100,000 fake Turkish passports have been produced, 50,000 of which have been shipped to China to be handed to fighters recruited to join the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL).

According to the article Uighurs are joining the fight, traveling from China through Thailand and Cambodia before reaching Malaysia, which has no visa requirements with Turkey. A fee of USD 200 is taken from the recruits.

The fighters then spend a night in Istanbul in motels, hotels or safe-house apartments before heading to Turkey’s Southeast and East the next day to cross into Syria and Iraq.

The individuals carrying fake passports are often caught at the airport in Istanbul. As to why they have been able to enter Turkey and not get deported, AG says, “Turkey has secret dealings with the Uighurs. The authorities first confiscate the passports but then release the individuals.”

Erkin and his friend talk about the present situation in Turkey. And about what Uyghurs are expected to achieve:

“Members of TIP – Turkistan Islamic Party – are repeatedly saying that ‘in Syria we are training for jihad, and we will go back to China, and fight.”

The question is, how would Uyghur fighters be moved back to China; from both Turkey, but especially from Syria?

Erkin replied:

“My theory is, that China is on high alert, and if the fighters would be sent first from Syria to Turkey, and then to China, it could be done only if the ID’s were changed and falsified. Because China has names, it has lists, and it has information. If Turkey decides to secretly change their ID’s, and sends them to China, it could be possible, but, as you said yourself earlier, the Afghan route is also possible. The IS fighters are also gathering there, the TIP is gathering there, in Afghanistan; some parts of the Western Afghanistan tip, which is not far from the border with China. I think that TIP will try to go directly to China, but most of the attempts will fail. They will attack from Afghanistan. As you know, Russia recently declared that the IS has formed a new caliphate in Afghanistan, which would fortify the jihadi climate in the country. Turkey will try to send a number of Uyghur fighters there, although I don’t know how many.

I also think that Turkey will try to divide Uyghurs into two groups. You know that Uyghurs always travel with their families. Sending them anywhere with the families is very hard. But sending fighters first, and then ‘deporting’ the families, is another thing. Deporting the families could be done under ‘humanitarian cover’. So, I think, the fighters will go first, secretly, and then, families will be deported.”

But where would the families be ‘deported’ to? To China?

“Yes, because in Izmir and Hatay, Uyghurs are taken care of by the Turkish government. There are always, exclusively, women and children, but no men.”

On June 2019, I went back to both Hatay and Izmir, just to confirm what I was told in Zeitinburnu.

But before that, we traveled to Aksaray in Istanbul; to one of the notorious Uyghur restaurants, owned by an AKP member. Uyghurs are managing the place. It is the place where separatist leaders meet, regularly; every month, or at least every second month. The former boss of this place was arrested on charges of human trafficking. My colleagues explain: “We have no idea what charges, exactly, or what happened to him? If he was still in prison, we would definitely know.”

The Police HQ is very close to this eatery, which I do not want to identify by name, at least not for this report; not yet. Paradoxically, some members of the police force who are supposed to be tracking down human trafficking, regularly gather here. So too, naïve Chinese tourists in search of good spicy Chinese food from the Northwest of their country.

I am told:

“According to my source here, police once spotted a human trafficking cell here, but did nothing… Police is actually controlling these cells, even giving new names to those who are supposed to be sent to Syria. Police is in charge, and the government officials actually know who is going to Syria, name by name. Some profits from this, and from other restaurants like this one, are going directly to the Uyghur separatist association.”

Actually, there are many restaurants like this, but this one is the HQ for the Istanbul area. It tries to stay humble, not flashy, with hardly any signs in Arabic.”

I am also explained to:

“All of our sources confirm the same: ‘Police and the state/government know everything, and they make sure to control the action.”

Governing and mainly right-wing nationalist and pro-Western opposition parties in Turkey are all supporting the Uyghurs. The Opposition even more than the ruling AKP, so there is very little chance that the policy will get reversed anytime soon.

Most of the Turkish media outlets echo Western sources, and are openly hostile towards China.

However, the government does not want to antagonize China, openly. It has some cooperation, at least when it comes to the tracking of criminal activities.

One thing has changed, I was told by Abdulkadir Yapcan, who covers legal issues related to Uyghurs:

“If China provides IDs and names, Turkey will investigate and press charges. If China fails to provide detailed information, Turkey will do absolutely nothing. This is at least some change, since 2016. Although, so far, there was only one case…”

Uyghurs have gone violent, even in Turkey, on several occasions. The most documented ones were an attack against the Thai consulate in Istanbul in 2015, and an attack on a nightclub in Zeitinburnu, in which 39 people lost their lives, mainly Turkish and Saudi citizens.

 

UYGHUR FIGHTERS IN AFGHANISTAN

On the outskirts of Kabul and Jalalabad in Afghanistan, I regularly encounter people who are escaping from the increasing presence of ISIS in various parts of the country. Some are now forced to live in the camps for internally displaced people, like that in Bagrami, just on the outskirts of the capital.

My sources in the country are speaking clearly about the movement of the jihadi cadres (mostly ISIS) from Syria to Afghanistan. Among them are, as expected, Uyghurs.

These individuals arrive after being fully trained. They are battle-ready, indoctrinated and extremely brutal, even by the standards of Afghanistan; a country which has been battered by civil wars and invasions.

The proximity of Afghanistan to China, with which it has a short border in the east, but also to the former Soviet Central Asian Republics (Afghanistan has borders with Turkmenistan Tajikistan and Uzbekistan), is making it an ideal group to be used for subversion against China, Russia and the Central Asian republics.

It is essential to understand, that China’s BRI is designed to connect China with the entire world, using several infrastructural corridors, some of which would be following the old Silk Roads, passing through Central Asia, cutting through Iran, Pakistan but also Afghanistan. The city of Urumqi, and Xingjian Province generally, will be some of the most important hubs. Those in the West who want to disrupt this, perhaps, the most important global project, are strategically using Uyghur separatists, terrorists and religious fanatics, to bring uncertainty, even chaos, to this part of the world.

Several top al-Qaeda members such as Abu Yahya al-Libi, and Mustafa Setmariam Nasar ─ who had met Uyghurs in Afghanistan where they trained as mujahidin ─ have expressed personal support to their cause’. The Uyghurs East Turkestan independence movement

was also personally endorsed in the serial “Islamic Spring’s 9th release” by Ayman Al-Zawahiri, the chief of Al-Qaeda.

It is also important to recall that during the Battle of Kunduz in Afghanistan (in 2015), foreign Islamist militants joined both Taliban and ISIS, in an assault on the city. Among them were Uyghur as well as Chechen, Rohingya, Kyrgyz, Tajik, and Uzbek.

TIP is fighting in Syria and elsewhere, but the organization’s leadership is based in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but with most of its members operating illegally on the territory of People’s Republic of China.

 

UYGHURS ARE INCOURAGED TO MURDER, AND THEY ARE TRAINED AND HARDENED IN SYRIA

A lady, a mother of three, is sitting on the porch of her temporary home, in the Syrian city of As Suqaylabiyah. She slowly recounts the horrors she had to live through, before escaping from her village in the Idlib area:

“The terrorists who committed mass murder in my town, are Uyghurs. My cousins and other relatives, were killed. By Uyghurs; yes, by them. In April, 2014. They were shot. We stood against them, trying to defend ourselves. Then they began killing us, first in the fight, then in revenge. After that, they cut off heads of those they murdered.”

“Were they the most brutal of the terrorists,” I asked.

“Yes. From north to south, from east to west of Idlib province. They are monstrous. They are under the command, under control of Nusra Front. They kidnap soldiers, and kill them brutally. They kill entire families and kill them in a way I cannot even describe. The easiest death is when they shoot and then behead you. They are like monsters.”

She knows. She escaped them by a miracle:

“I still remember; I fled with what was left of my family, at 4am. Uyghurs were killing, and so were Indonesians; totally brainwashed, mad. You know, my family consists of teachers; teachers of Arabic language. I have 3 children. They were not going to spare anyone…”

I met Ms. Noora Al Khadour and 17 years old daughter, Naia, from the Kafer Nboudah village:

“We are terribly scared of Uyghurs; of their crimes. I don’t even want to remember what has happened. Although I know that I have to speak to you; to people like you… in order to stop all that madness. You know, I had to flee with my four children, on a motorbike, like in some crazy movie…”

She tries to find words, how to begin:

“First: we had to switch off our brains, in order to survive. What was happening was far from ‘normal’. It was horror. It is almost impossible to describe… I am just a simple woman. They entered our town and began beheading. Shooting… Their faces; their expressions – your heart stops thinking about them. I am so lucky that during that night I did not lose any family members, because we escaped almost immediately.”

I ask, whether Uyghurs and their TIP are using narcotics, when they attack villages. My question triggers a huge discussion.

“Definitely,” Ms. Noora replied. “They could not act like this, if they were in a ‘normal’ state.”

My friend, Anas, who is accompanying me, chips in:

“My friend from the SAA (Syrian Arab Army) told me that the pockets of the jackets of the terrorists are always full of drugs. Uyghurs are using captagon.”

Soldiers standing by, confirm that whenever a terrorist is captured, his pockets are full of ‘combat drugs’.

I am wondering, in horror, what would a well-trained platoon of TIP terrorists do if it were to overrun a village in China. In the two last decades, Uyghur separatists carried out hundreds of terrorist attacks in China, killing countless people. But they never held an entire village anywhere in the PRC.

Syria – Idlib front line – Commander Nabel
Syria – Idlib front line – Commander Nabel

In As Suqaylabiyah I sit across a table from the commander of NDF (National Defense Force), Nabel Al-Abdallah. We speak Russian. He takes me; drives me, to the frontline, all the way to the edge, where Al Nusra positions are clearly visible. Then he invites me back, to this beautiful part of Syria, when “all this madness is over”.

Back at his command center, he explains:

“We are not afraid of Uyghurs, but we are taking their threat very seriously. Look, inside the Idlib area which is controlled by them, terrorism ‘grows’. If, after improving his combat skills here, a fighter returns to China, it would represent a tremendous danger. Uyghurs are the worst fighters; the toughest fighters. And right in front of us – Idlib – is the world capital of terror. It is a laboratory of terrorism. There are terrorists from all over the world. There, Uyghurs are learning the deadliest trades.”

He pauses, offers me aromatic Syrian tea. Then continues with his thoughts:

“Uyghur terrorists are targeting our people. They are brutalizing them. If we do not have solutions, soon, terrorists will damage the entire world. Our problem is not just Uyghurs and ISIS, not only TIP or Nusra. Our problem is the ideology which they represent. They use Islam, they commit barbarity in the name of Islam, but all this is backed by the United States and the West. The Syrian Army and National Defense Forces are sacrificing their soldiers for the world, not just for this country.”

There are conflicting reports, as for how many Uyghurs fighters are still inside Syria. The generally accepted number is around 2,000, but that includes families.

Commander Nabel clarified:

“400 to 500 fighters are now in Idlib area. And all international terrorists based in Idlib are under Al-Nusra Front command. They are supported by Qatar, United States, Saudis, and Turkey. Officers of the U.S. intelligence are there – inside my country. There are Turkish observation points, Turkish military forces.”

Again, I am being driven along the front line. I visited several Syrian positions and towns, including As Suqaylabiyah. It is still war here, around Idlib – real, tough war. Mortars are exploding not far from us, and landmines are being discovered and defused in the vicinity. People are dying; they still are.

Near Muhradah, at the Mahardah Power Station which was recently liberated by the SAA, soldiers discovered several charred bodies. I was told, they were most likely “Asian” terrorists. But were they Indonesians or Uyghurs, nobody could tell.

The leader of the National Syrian Defense in Muhradah, clarified:

“Uyghurs are tough fighters. They are under Al-Nusra front. They are very evasive, operating under different names. They are all there – inside – in Idlib. When Idlib falls, they will fall together with it.”

I am shown maps.

Most likely, when all this is over, the Uyghurs will be “moved” elsewhere. Back to Turkey, to Afghanistan, or, if nothing is done to stop them, back to China.

A Syrian analyst who does not want to be identified, wrote for this essay:

“Danger of Uyghurs operating in Syria is multi-faceted:

“First of all, they can form no part of any integral solution, because they do not belong to Syria. One way or the other, their presence is harmful; dividing the country. The latest information about their deployment here is clearly showing that they are intentionally being used by Turkey, in order to prevent the SAA from regaining control over Idlib. Back in 2016, the SAA tried to infiltrate the territory all the way to Jisr ash-Shugur, in Idlib, from Latakia countryside. But all military actions failed, due to the might of the TIP (Turkistan Islamic Party) which is operating in the area. It is good to mention here that the TIP spearheaded the attacks on all SAA posts in Jisr ash-Shugur and committed massacres there.

ORDER IT NOW

The second issue is: a direct threat to the Chinese interests in the region. with intimidations being spread online and posted via the accounts linked to “Malhama Tactical” (The group, founded by a pseudonymous Uzbek jihadist called Abu Rofiq, operating in Syria, supporting anti-government terrorist forces* note of the author). There is also great danger of the Uyghurs returning back to China and recruiting hundreds of youth extremist, separatist fighters, who could then decide to initiate attacks against the PRC.

For the reasons mentioned above, China has to be involved in all the efforts to neutralize such threats. And the world has to understand its defensive actions.

 

UYGHURS IN INDONESIA AND REST OF SOUTHEAST ASIA

Indonesia, the most populous Muslim-majority country, has been, since the 1965 US and UK backed right-wing military coup, a staunch ally of the West. Communism and atheism are banned there, and the most extreme and grotesque forms of capitalism are practiced all over the archipelago. Racism in Indonesia is fabled; the country has committed three genocides since 1965, including the on-going one in the occupied West Papua.

The Chinese minority was always the target of countless pogroms and discrimination. This began in the era of Dutch colonialism, and continues until now.

On top of it, most of the Indonesian Muslims are practicing the increasingly intolerant, radical Sunni Wahhabi Islam, with roots in Saudi Arabia (Wahhabism was developed with the substantial help of the British imperialists).

Right-wing, religious, pro-business Indonesia has generally seen China (PRC) as an enemy. Right after the 1965 coup, tens of thousands of Chinese people were murdered in cold blood, hundreds of thousands were enslaved, countless women gang-raped, millions forced to change names, abandon their native language, character and culture. Many elements in the Indonesian regime and apparatus have enthusiastically joined the West in its new crusade to destabilize Beijing and its internationalist vision for the world.

The Uyghurs have become the perfect tool for the anti-Beijing combat. According to Pak Wawan from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Indonesia (not his real name), some Uyghurs began commuting from China to Turkey and eventually Syria with the fake Turkish passports, as early as one decade ago. This bewildered some Indonesian immigration officers, at the main international airport in Jakarta. But the ‘confusion’ was soon clarified, and the Uyghurs were allowed to proceed; to continue on their deadly march.

Pak Wawan told me more, during our encounter in the West Javanese city of Bandung:

“There were ‘friendships’ forged between the Uyghurs and local, Indonesian, Islamist radicals. Some Indonesian people even travelled to Urumqi. Connections have been forged, and eventually many travelled to Indonesia, for ideological work, fundraising and combat training. These contacts and links go way back to the times when both sides were based in Mecca, Medina, Riyadh, in Saudi Arabia. The visa regime between the two countries (Indonesia and China) is relatively lax, and so, people from TIP have been able to enter Indonesia hassle free. Once here, most of them became imams, but others went on to join camps and get training as jihadi fighters, particularly in the middle of the Island of Sulawesi.”

Pak Wawan continues:

“These people have a huge network. They also have networks in Thailand and Malaysia. Recently, they deported them from Pattaya, Thailand. Most of their cadres had studied at various religious universities, mostly in the Saudi Arabia, or at least somewhere in the Middle East.

When they come to Indonesia, they carry with them a book of propaganda, as well as videos, with the aim of boiling mistrust and hate towards China. Among other things, the book says that the Chinese people are: kafir (“ingratitude” (toward God)), and that they are najis (dirty). The book is calling for the banning (again) of all symbols of Chinese culture.”

It is a tremendously racist, violent book. Similar texts have been distributed in Indonesia against Shi’a Muslims, with the predictable help of Saudi Arabia.

According to Pak Wawan:

“In Indonesia, it is estimated that there are some 200 Uyghur students, with the main purpose, to work as ustads/imams (religious clerics), and to infiltrate the system. Some are simply trapped here. Some of them are involved in subversive activities, together with the members of the Indonesian jihadists. Their goal is to go back to Syria, and eventually to China.”

In the restive island of Sulawesi, there are expected to be several Uyghur fighters, still on the loose, although four of them were caught, tried and sentenced to lengthy terms in prison (in 2015), for joining the radical terrorist group Mujahidin Indonesia Timur (MIT or East Indonesia Mujahedeen) with its leader Santoso aka Pakde aka Abu Wardah. The Santoso group has already pledged allegiance to ISIS under the leadership of Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi.

The imprisonment of 4 Uyghurs in Indonesia in 2015, could be interpreted as a change of course by Jokowi’s administration. The same as Turkey, Indonesia has been the victim of deadly terrorist attacks, and begins to see the Wahhabi jihadi cadres as a danger. Also, the attitude towards China is starting to change, as least in the recent years. China is seen as a partner, mainly when it comes to investment into the collapsing Indonesian infrastructure.

But it is still a confusing situation.

Some Uyghurs are arriving, lately via the International airport in Manado, Sulawesi. Others are travelling by boat, from the Muslim part of the Philippines.

What is significant is that the delegations from two major Indonesian Muslim organizations – NU (Nahdlatul Ulama – the largest independent Muslim organization in the world) and Muhammadiyah – were invited to Urumqi in China, shown around, and at the end declared publicly, that there is no oppression of the Muslims in China.

It became clear that those who were continuing to spread anti-Chinese rumors in Indonesia and the rest of Southeast Asia, were financed and supported from abroad.

Rossie Indira, an Indonesian writer and publisher, who has been helping with this report, visited several radical groups in Java, as well as the leading politicians, who flatly refused to smear China on behalf of the West.

Of course, the hardened Islamist organizations never changed their tune. Mr. Atip Latiful Hayat, Chairman of the Expert Council of ANNAS Indonesia (Anti-Shia National Alliance), spoke to Ms. Rossie Indira about ‘human rights’ and the oppression of Muslims by the PRC. ANNAS Indonesia openly declared that “Balikpapan Muslims will support both morally and materially any strive for the liberation of Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang province of China.”

Mr. Okta, from the program department of ACT, an NGO from West Java, which used to be heavily involved in collecting money and goods for the Uyghurs, declared that the issue is not their priority, anymore.

Dina Suleiman, a legendary Indonesian academic and writer, who regularly defends both Syria and Iran, stated for this report:

“ACT published its yearly report, but we could not find details on where all the money went. They only published that a certain amount was donated to countries outside Indonesia, but no details. An accountant friend of mine looked into their published reports and said that they (ACT) used all kinds of terminology to validate using the percentage of donations for their own needs. He told me that it could be that up to 60% of the donations were used for their own needs.”

A typical case of endemic Indonesian corruption? In this case: good. Better if money gets stolen, than if it was to reach Uyghur extremists!

Mr. Inas N. Zubir, the Chairman of the Hanura Faction in the House of Representatives is part of the faction in the Indonesian political system, that is openly questioning what is behind the smearing of the Chinese government in connection with the Uyghur ‘issue’. He spoke to Ms. Rossie Indira, recently, for this report:

“Indonesian people have to be careful when they hear about the problems related to Uyghur Muslims, because the news about the alleged discriminatory treatment by the Chinese government that has been lately circulating, only came from the international media and a number of western NGOs. Meanwhile, a number of western countries were later found to have less harmonious relations with China.”

“The Central Committee of Muhammadiyah (by its Chairman, Haedar Nasir) met with the Chinese Muslim Association (Vice President of the association: Abdullah Amin Jin Rubin) in September 2018. Abdullah Amin Jin Rubin had denied the above allegations. He stated that Muslims in China as a whole, including Uighurs, had the same freedom and received good treatment from the government. The proof is: in Xinjiang, where the Uighurs are located, there are 28,000 mosques and more than 30,000 imams to lead prayers. Even in Xinjiang, the government participates in supporting the establishment of Islamic College. So, the religious life of Muslims is good.”

“I suspected that the issue of discriminatory treatment of Uighur Muslims was deliberately raised by certain parties in the country to discredit Joko Widodo’s government. I think the opposition intentionally portrays Joko Widodo’s government as a government that does not care about the suffering of Uighur Muslims.”

 

Several jihadi cells in the Philippines and Malaysia are also pledging support to the Uyghur extremists.

During the year 2017, the jihadi cadres (mainly ISIS) attacked and overran the city of Marawi, on Mindanao Island, Philippines. What followed was a prolonged battle between the military and the terrorists. I was told by the army commanders that among the dead militants, there were several “foreign fighters”. Some were Indonesians, others came from Malaysia. It was indicated to me that there were ‘others’, particularly from China, although there was no concrete confirmation about the Uyghurs.

 

MARCH OF UYGHURS HAS TO BE STOPPED

And what is it that the Chinese media, and the Chinese people have to say on the subject? Naturally, it is not easy to find much of non-Western voices, in the propagandist anti-Chinese cacophony carried by outlets such as Yahoo News or Google.

As early as in 2013, China Daily published an article by Li Xiaoshuang named “Western media’s coverage on Xinjiang worthless”. It passionately expressed what the North American and European mass media has been trying to silence, for over a decade:

“The Western media has become the propaganda machine for the Uyghur separatists.

As a Xinjiang native, I am outraged by the false reports in Western press about what has happened in Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region during the month of Ramadan, a time of fasting for Muslims all over the world…

Citing just a Uyghur activist as the only news source, the reports accuse Chinese authorities of banning Muslims from fasting and praying in mosques, coupled with biased commentary that the Chinese government is suppressing Uyghur ethnic groups and transferring huge numbers of Han Chinese into Xinjiang to dilute the Uyghur culture.

Without first-hand accounts, not mentioning repeated clarifications from the Xinjiang government, how dare these media outlets be so irresponsible? How can the world learn the whole truth?

It reminds me of the riot in the region on June 26, leaving 27 people dead. It was definitely a massacre, but some Western media, as they have done so before, described the attacks as part of an ethnic conflict. They portray terrorists who betray their religion by killing innocent people as “heroes”, seeking religious or political freedom…”

On March 20, 2019, Xie Wenting and Bai Yunyi of Global Times reported with much more urgency:

“Misleading headlines, groundless accusations, obscure interviewees, double standards are not hard to spot in many articles covering China’s Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region in Western media outlets.

Recent months have seen an intensive outburst of such reports which have tainted China’s anti-terrorism efforts in the region by adopting tactics including using words with a negative connotation, providing incomplete information and stirring readers’ emotions.”

Muslim girls selling halal food in China
Muslim girls selling halal food in China

It is not often mentioned in the West, but there are some 20 million Muslims living in China. According to the State Administration for Religious Affairs (SARA), there are more than 21 million Muslims in the country. According to SARA there are approximately 36,000 Islamic places of worship, more than 45,000 imams, and 10 Islamic schools in the country. In China, Islam has some interesting nuances: for instance, there are mosques led by female imams, there. All over China, halal food is available, and actually very popular. Many people show great interest in Muslim culture, at least theoretically.

During my 2018 visit to the Chinese city of Xian, I was impressed by the great effort the Chinese government has been making, to support Muslim culture in this historical center of multi-culturalism, from which, centuries ago, the legendary Silk Road had been initiating. Islamic civilization, its music, food, centers of worship and architecture are now the greatest magnet, bringing tens of millions of visitors from all over China.

ORDER IT NOW

I clearly saw that there was no discrimination in Xiang. My conclusions were the same as those of the emissaries of two Muslim mass movements of Indonesia, who were allowed to visit Xinjiang. We found no brutal treatment of the Muslim and their religion in China.

 

It often appears to me, and to other experts on China, that the Chinese people and even the Chinese government, do not know how to defend themselves against the vicious and totally unfair attacks against their country; attacks which are coming from abroad.

China “wants peace”. It is offering friendship. But it is insulted, constantly attacked and humiliated in return.

The truth is obvious: The West does not desire peace. It does not care about justice. It never did. It only wants to control. For as long as China is doing well; better than the West; for as long as its political and social system are becoming more and more popular, all over the world, and particularly in developing countries, Washington, Paris, London, Berlin, but also Tokyo, will never stop, attacking and provoking Beijing.

In order to prosper, and even in order to survive, the Chinese Dragon will have to fight. Only a defeated, humiliated and conquered China would be ‘accepted’ by the West. A China which respects itself and helps others, will be attacked and brutalized by the West.

The great Chinese poet, Su Shi (1037-1101) once wrote: “The scenery varies when people watch from close or far, or from different sides.” What he meant was that Mount Lushan will not show its true features just because we are right in the mountains.

The same could be written about politics. Just because one lives in China, it does not guarantee that he or she would be able to fully understand the viciousness and determination of the anti-Chinese attacks, which are conducted by the foreign adversaries. Also he or she would not necessarily realize why they are being conducted.

The attacks against China are not only of an economic or military nature. Religions are some of the mightiest weapons of the China’s foes. Be it radical Buddhism, evangelical Protestant Christianity, or, as now, radical Islam.

China has to defend itself, by all means. Extremist Uyghurs are marching. Many of them are brutal, and extremely dangerous. They have already murdered thousands of innocent people, in various countries. Their goal is to break the integrity of China and its great internationalist projects. They are determined, well-funded, and thoroughly selfish. Their desire for ‘independence’ has been ignited and financed by foreign powers.

The plan of the extremist Uyghurs is simple: to perfect terrorist and extremist tactics, and combat skills abroad, then return to China and begin spreading the nightmare at home.

The West is readily “helping” to fuel their deadly march. China’s Ecological Civilization, the end of poverty in the most populous country on earth, and BRI, are seen as a danger to Western supremacy, at least in places such as Washington, London and Brussels.

China has all the right to defend itself. It has a full obligation to do so.

It is the duty of thinkers from all over the world to tell the truth. If they stay silent, or if they sell their dignity for money and privileges, as so many in the West are doing right now, they will be condemned by future generations.

[First published by NEO – New Eastern Outlook]

Andre Vltchek is a philosopher, novelist, filmmaker and investigative journalist. He has covered wars and conflicts in dozens of countries. Four of his latest books are Revolutionary Optimism, Western Nihilism, a revolutionary novel “Aurora” and a bestselling work of political non-fiction: “Exposing Lies Of The Empire”. View his other books here. Watch Rwanda Gambit, his groundbreaking documentary about Rwanda and DRCongo and his film/dialogue with Noam Chomsky “On Western Terrorism”. Vltchek presently resides in East Asia and the Middle East, and continues to work around the world. He can be reached through his website and his Twitter. His Patreon

 
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  1. romar says:

    Thank you for a clear and very informative – and grim – account.
    It is hard to see how this tentacular jihadi movement will be defeated, unless something seriously weakens American power, and hence that of its equally evil “allies”.
    But that will have to be an “act of God.” The slow undermining of the West by internal forces may be too slow to allow the forces of good to save the world.

  2. KA says:

    Few Muslims I met , felt frustrated angry about Chinese behaviors. I told them why should China allow an Afghanistan develop and why as Muslim you should .
    A few Chrustian I heard were upset at a Chinese festival held in one of the cities of USA . Upset about treatment about Christian. I told them why they would like to have a reincarnation or foreign plant of Evangelical in Asia with such a muscle power and limited brain volume .
    Some Democrats are upset with China and quite a few GOP. Some Indian are equally and so are expatriate from Europe and Australia . I asked them why I would believe anything American media say about China .

  3. Erebus says:
    @romar

    But that will have to be an “act of God.”

    Or an act of war.

  4. Chill, Andre. We reached Peak Uyghur three years ago. Everything’s under control. We are witnessing America’s last gasp in Xinjiang. after seventy years, the curtain is about to come down on another geopolitical failure. Xinjiang is a replay of Tibet. US Ambassador Chas. H. Freeman, Director for Chinese Affairs at the U.S. Department of State from 1979-1981 said,

    “I don’t see any reason why Tibet being part of China should be any more controversial than Wales being part of the United Kingdom. The periods when they were put into that position were about the same. I recall, as probably most people don’t, that the the Central Intelligence Agency, with assistance from some of China’s neighbors, put $30 million into the destabilization of Tibet and basically financed and trained the participants in the Khampa rebellion and ultimately sought to remove the Dalai Lama from Tibet–which they did. They escorted him out of Tibet to Dharamsala. ..

    “The CIA programs in Tibet, which were very effective in destabilizing it, did not succeed in Xinjiang. There were similar efforts made with the Uyghurs during the Cold War that never really got off the ground. In both cases you had religion waved as a banner in support of a desire for independence or autonomy which is, of course, is anathema to any state. I do believe that people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones applies here. I am part American Indian and those people are not here (in the US) in the numbers they once were because of severe genocidal policies on the part of the European majority”. 8/31/18
    https://supchina.com/podcast/legendary-diplomat-chas-w-freeman-jr-on-u-s-china-strategy-and-history-part-3/

    Tibetans are getting fatter and happier by the day, their culture is booming, millions of tourists think Tibetans are cool and they spend billions,. etc. The population has doubled, 95% of them are ethnic Tibetan and everyone has an income or a paying job and most own land (divvied up after the nobles fled with the country’s gold reserves). They grow winter veggies under micro-irrigated hoops so everyone has fresh veggies every day (along with the yak’s milk, of course).

    I believe the Hero of Tibet moved to Xinjiang and adapted his techniques to local conditions.

    That’s why our media shriek about “Whole Families Imprisoned!” in reeducation centers: Uyghurs move en famille or not at all. Separating them would cruel and insulting.

    Half of the Fortune 500 have built facilities In Xinjiang, universities are expanding, etc., etc.

    It’s all over bar the shouting, and shouting is all the West can do now.

    • Replies: @Biff
    , @Anon000
  5. Biff says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    It maybe over in Xinjiang, but the propaganda campaign in the west is still on.

    Just today:

    https://news.yahoo.com/uighurs-links-home-come-steep-price-033844631.html

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  6. Informative article and interesting comments, I’m assuming not westerners, but perhaps desirous of western living standards? How many people want to grow their own veggies and drink yak milk? Most people only want to live in peace.

    East versus west isn’t an answer to resolving global issues. Let’s address trade and immigration as PDJT is currently conducting. The US will soon be $30T in debt, to whom? Mostly the globalist banking cabal which will see the east exist in servitude as well as the west.

    These issues won’t be resolved by war, where only the cabal wins, while we kill each other. Let’s recognize who is the real enemy, the satanic world order, otherwise we all suffer.

  7. Nice piece, though as usual I take issue with the author’s tone that seems to think there’s something wrong with attempting to destabilize a geopolitical rival. That’s how the game is played, and if China had better soft power tools and espionage capabilities they’d be fools not to do the same to us (the old KGB was always active in this area).

    Whether or not China truly wants peace or friendship is quite irrelevant. By virtue of its power and position outside of the American Empire, it is by definition a threat and treated as such by planners in Washington and their vassals in London and Tokyo. As it should be.

    In the ’90s there was a naive and frankly idiotic hope that China would become a Western vassal state by dint of market integration. This obviously did not happen, and since China is unlikely to become poor again the ideal outcome would be the comprehensive destabilization and fragmentation of China. The CCP of course has no intent to allow this to happen and is taking appropriate steps to prevent it.

    The West’s lying and misrepresentation is, of course, highly annoying. Especially as much of Western disinformation is intended for domestic consumption.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  8. Marcus says:

    The Xinjiang “camps” seem like the Iraqi incubator story all over again (I wish it were true, Islam should be treated as a mental illness), but glorifying a country that is doing more than anyone else to render what’s left of our planet uninhabitable is insane even for a braindead shill like you.
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/05/22/ozone-layer-china-emitting-banned-cfcs/3767724002/
    https://www.scmp.com/article/1711744/china-produces-about-third-plastic-waste-polluting-worlds-oceans-says-report

    • Replies: @Alfred
    , @anonymous
  9. Talha says:

    Thanks for the in depth article. I learned a lot. This is a welcome entry on this topic.

    One note:

    I clearly saw that there was no discrimination in Xiang.

    Yes, but that’s the Hui population – totally different scenario. Is there any way possible you can report from Xinjiang itself? Have you watched documentaries like this one:

    I have seen multiple maps of the BRI and much of it cuts along the northern half of the Xinjiang province. Isn’t there a way to simply figure a way to leave the Uyghurs that want to be part of China to remain in that key area and just split off the bottom half for those that want a separation and then keep a well-maintained security fence around it for containment? That would seem to accomplish the goal of going full steam ahead with the BRI and accommodating those that want a separate state.

    And I fully acknowledge the problem that comes from Saudi being involved in anything when it comes to spreading extremist versions of Islam – I have dealt with enough my-way-or-the-highway Muslims to know they disproportionately come from that background. However, Saudi seems to be on board with China and the BRI:
    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/2186697/china-and-saudi-arabia-seek-closer-ties-crown-prince-visit

    …so I’m not exactly getting what’s going on. Is Saudi trying to play a double game; get economic benefits from the BRI while simultaneously working with the US to destabilize China?

    Peace.

    • Agree: Agent76
    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @anon26_
  10. Alden says:

    Syrian Christian monks missionaries went as far as China in late 200’s AD before Christianity was legalized in the Roman Empire. Emperor Justinian sent Christian monks to contact Chinese Christians to bring back silk worms cerca 550 AD ( industrial espionage and theft)

    Persian Christian and Jewish traders in China brought their clergy critters with them and established religious buildings from 200 BC for the jews, later for the Christians.

    There were Chinese and other East and Central Asian ambassadors to the Vatican from 500 AD on. The trip along the Silk Road took 2 years each way but they made it. The Catholic Chinese bishops had to make the journey to Rome to be interviewed and appointed as Catholic bishops

    Marco Polo cerca 1300 AD reported a Catholic Bishop and Catholic congregations in China

    The Emperor appointed an Italian Catholic priest, Matteo Ricci Prime Minister if China cerca 1550 AD

    Christianity never conquered China the way it did Europe and Pre Muslim invasion MENA.

    But there’s been a significant Christian presence in China since late 200 ADs.

    And American Chinese who live in cities where the public schools are integrated with blacks rush to enroll their children in the numerous Catholic Parish grade schools and Catholic high schools if available. Charity is not the Asian Way. But they do donate a lot to the separate Catholic school system so as to expand the private school system where their children will be safe. Doesn’t prevent them from bloc voting as Democrats with the blacks though

    “ All for one and one for all” non Whites and Jews against the Whites.

    Christianity’s been a significant presence in China since the beginning, late 200s AD

    • Agree: Alfred
  11. Yee says:

    LOL… it finally comes down to a money race.

    The US spending money to destabilize Xinjiang and Tibet, while China spending money to stabilize them. Good for the Tibetans and Uyghurs.

    OK, I have no problem my tax money go to Tibet and Xinjiang… At least it stays within our economy.

  12. Anon000 says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    The neocons in Foggy Bottom and Stink Tank Row chuckle at your naïveté. While there has been a discernible ramp up in pro-Uyghur/‘brutal Chinese regime’ propaganda recently, it’s broader than that. I mean, it has the same tenor as the previous regime-change choruses.

    As someone with no real interest in Asian geopolitics I’ve raised a curious eyebrow at the conspicuous vilification of China in the MSM. Not dissimilar to Iraq, Libya, Syria, et al. But this is a bigger (juicier) project. Around this time last year ODNI designated China a high-threat to U.S. national security (lumped in with about 10 others including Iran, Yemen, Russia, DPRK, et al.). Deep State/MIC has China in its crosshairs. China has become the new best enemy of the U.S. The Uyghurs are merely proxy warriors, just a small but aggregating and disrupting weapon in this campaign to weaken and subvert China and her progress.

    I don’t think China is prepared for this cold war which it had no part in starting. But the West has become engaged in a hostile goal, like a drunk tough guy in a bar who thinks some guy watching the game was actually ogling his woman. The new goal of the West is to turn China into a failed state. It doesn’t take a geopolitical Colombo to realize this.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  13. anon[764] • Disclaimer says:

    “the year 2017, the jihadi cadres (mainly ISIS) attacked and overran the city of Marawi, on Mindanao Island, Philippines. What followed was a prolonged battle between the military and the terrorists. I was told by the army commanders that among the dead militants, there were several “foreign fighters”. Some were Indonesians, others came from Malaysia. It was indicated to me that there were ‘others’, particularly from China, although there was no concrete confirmation about the Uyghurs.”

    Interestingly , ISIS showed up at a crucial time of the political realignment of Phillipines both domestic and foreign realignment . This infuriated western governments . Lo and behold -: ISIS is suddenly making its presence felt out of nowhere in Phillipines .
    Malaysia , it’s former bribed and corrupt leaders with Saudi instigation p allowed the coup attempt in northern eastern Malayasia . The coup was intimately related to ISIS .

  14. @Biff

    Very interesting! Look at the letters (in Yahoo) about that story. I haven’t read all of them but as far as I read, they were all sceptical of the story that AFP was peddling. I don’t think that would have happened even a year ago.

  15. Marcus says:
    @Anon000

    The vilification of China is non-existent compared to that of Russia though. Maybe if Russia made Shoygu or some other Asiatic-looking fellow titular head of state the West and its “independent” media would shut up.

    • Replies: @Arioch
  16. Uyghurs can be victims and terrorists. The two are not mutually exclusive.

    When the USSR occupied Afghanistan, the resistance fighters were both courageous patriots and ruthless terrorists.

    While I wouldn’t mind China totally invading and crushing Taiwan(as it’s part of Han China), I’d say the Uyghurs have some justification in their defiance of Beijing. Same thing with Tibetans.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  17. Vltchek on the ‘Uyghurs.’

    The ‘Uyghurs’ are bad, and China is good. Why am I not surprised?

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Showmethereal
  18. @Priss Factor

    ‘While I wouldn’t mind China totally invading and crushing Taiwan(as it’s part of Han China)’

    It’s nitpicking — but not really. Taiwan has spent very little of its history under Chinese rule — and the indigenous population certainly wasn’t Han.

    • Replies: @Alfred
    , @denk
  19. @romar

    It is probably safe to assume that “the internal forces” responsible for “the slow undermining of the West” leave the same grubby fingerprints as the forces working to destroy social cohesion in China.
    Just a hunch on my part.

  20. Yee says:

    Talha,

    “…so I’m not exactly getting what’s going on. Is Saudi trying to play a double game; get economic benefits from the BRI while simultaneously working with the US to destabilize China?”
    .

    What’s so difficult to understand? Every country has its own national interests. Saudi is under near total US control doesn’t mean the 2 countries have the same national interests.

    Why should Saudi piss off China? What would Saudi gain if China collapsed? China helped Saudi in the 80s when the US refused to.

    But don’t worry, Talha, the US has a back-up plan for the failure in Xinjiang – Pakistan. It’d try to turn Pakistan into Syria #2. You just wait and watch.

    • Replies: @Arioch
  21. The Road to war can be a long one. The aim of the US is to contain China’s rise as a superpower. There is nothing historically inconsistent with this process – empires come and go. America wants to maintain its global predominance (there is nothing unnatural about that). But history shows that when a rising power threatens the incumbent the result is always war. Supporting a separatist movement in Xinjiang would help undermine Beijing’s BRI program, the most visible sign of China’s challenge to US economic premiership. Logic suggests the two economic titans are heading for war.
    https://www.ghostsofhistory.wordpress.com/

  22. Jason Liu says:

    It often appears to me, and to other experts on China, that the Chinese people and even the Chinese government, do not know how to defend themselves against the vicious and totally unfair attacks against their country; attacks which are coming from abroad.

    The attacks against China are not only of an economic or military nature.

    This is the main problem with modern Chinese thinking–the complete inability to engage in ideological and moral conflict. Or worse, the belief that those things aren’t important. We’re stuck with the peasant mindset where money + military solves all problems. They don’t. This mindset will lead to defeat in the global culture war and is already isolating China. I understand if the nouveau riche middle class thinks this way, since they were peasants just a generation ago, but the CCP leadership should really know better.

    A Russian acquaintance once told me that China geopolitical problems all come from a lack of social skills across the entire country, hence the misunderstanding of foreign perceptions, the inability to take criticism, the overreaction to slights, the absence or even understanding of what soft power is, etc. It’s like some kid who was kept in the house to study all the time and never got the chance to interact with other people, and now has no idea how to deal with tricky social situations except by throwing money around.

    To be fair, I think Japan/Korea/Taiwan went through a similar phase, but those countries weren’t facing a Cold War with the US. If China wants to win, then it cannot afford to stay in this autism phase–our society has to mature faster than our neighbors did.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @last straw
    , @anon26_
    , @Antares
  23. Arioch says:

    > We’re stuck with the peasant mindset where money + military solves all problems

    > absence or even understanding of what soft power is

    There is an anecdote, that once Stalin was reported about some political stance by Pope. He raised an eye-brow and asked “Pope? How many [army] divisions he commands?”

    What if Chinese are right, actually? What is “army + industries” really do matter more than “soft power” ? What if “soft power” is overrated buzz-word used to funnel money from state budgets into pockets of soft power preachers?

    Where the world stood in 1999 and where it stands in 2019?
    Was “soft power” winning and growing during those 20 years, or was China steadily getting stronger and more influential?

  24. Arioch says:
    @Yee

    But don’t worry, Talha, the US has a back-up plan for the failure in Xinjiang – Pakistan. It’d try to turn Pakistan into Syria #2. You just wait and watch.

    It will not be easy to repeat it.

    Back in 1970-s China was America’s servant and enemy of USSR.
    While India was rival to China and mostly friendly to USSR. While being head of “unaligned” movement it had to adjust to Indo-Pakistani wars and to West total inability at fair peer relations.

    So, both China and USA were interested in turning Pakistan into crazy militant islamic sect, to be used both against USSR in Afghanistan and against India.

    Well, today there is no more Chinamerica union, Russia moved out of Afghanistan, Pakistan is racing to get into SCO, so does India, which under Modi became largely a client of USA.

    Since USA occupied Afghanistan directly the lost interest in Pakistan, and the latter for years could only rely on China. It would really be hard for USA to subdue Pakistan again – unlike 1970-s today it would take to work against both China and Russia. OTOH perhaps USA would have revanche in Modi’s India instead of Pakistan…

  25. Arioch says:
    @Marcus

    Because if “Russia-China double helix” hypothesis is true – and it at least seems reasonable – those were separations of responsibilities.

    Russia had to act as “hard power”: making forceful gestures, like military participation in Syria, like subduing Georgian invasion into Osetia, etc. And issues strong words in UN and other places ( Putin’s Munich Speech 2007 for example).

    Meanwhile Chinese part was “soft power”: keeping as friendly as they can to the West grow their economic influence and slowly prepare overtake or dismantling of pro-USA institutions (like IMF, WTA, etc).

    Overt tactical endeavors for Russia, covert strategic creeping in for China.

    Even UN SC voting until about 2017 were like: Russia – veto, China – abstain.
    In a sense Russia was a shield, shine and captivating shield, covering “invisible” China from Pax Americana fallouts and giving China time to “grow tentacles”.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @S
  26. Marcus says:
    @Arioch

    Makes sense, Russian “leadership” is disjointed, country is often lawless. They aren’t capable of playing the long game like China.

    • Replies: @Arioch
  27. Marcus says:
    @Talha

    My guess: Saudis are trying to cultivate ties with the Pan-Turkic militants that the US, Turkey, and NATO in general love. These groups are Islamic as well as nationalist, and are a major enemy of Saudi’s nemesis Iran, so hostility to China would be a secondary concern.

    • Replies: @Talha
  28. Talha says:
    @Marcus

    Possibly, that’s a good theory. Yes, I think Iran would have major trouble if Azeris could be convinced to go nationalist and separatist.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Alfred
  29. @Jason Liu

    A Russian acquaintance once told me that China geopolitical problems all come from a lack of social skills across the entire country, hence the misunderstanding of foreign perceptions, the inability to take criticism, the overreaction to slights, the absence or even understanding of what soft power is, etc. It’s like some kid who was kept in the house to study all the time and never got the chance to interact with other people, and now has no idea how to deal with tricky social situations except by throwing money around.

    Nope. The Chinese have not mastered West’s fine art of hypocrisy, which stinks to high haven sometimes. Nor the Chinese have much a clue about the West’s dishonest double-speak of political correctness. I guess the staff of China’s Publicity Department is not particularly competent either. China definitely need more PR personals who have been educated in the West and have lived in the West, though I think like the living standard and pollution in China, the situation will improve as time goes by.

  30. @Arioch

    As West and especially America’s hard power declines relatively, you will see more discussions about soft power in the Western MSM. In reality, both are important.

    • Replies: @Arioch
  31. anon26_ says:
    @Talha

    You’re using Vice News as a source. Lol, really. Are u not familiar with Vice’s ties?

    I’m not endorsing the following people, as I think they act as a limited hangout knowingly or unknowingly, but if you’re familiar with Abby Martin and her brother Robbie, check out some of their videos on youtube concerning Vice and audio recordings about it on their site mediaroots.org. They at least do some good work in this area. Max Blumenthal, who is also limited hangout, also did a video with Robbie about Vice.

    • Replies: @Talha
  32. anon26_ says:
    @Jason Liu

    A Russian acquaintance once told me that China geopolitical problems all come from a lack of social skills across the entire country, hence the misunderstanding of foreign perceptions, the inability to take criticism, the overreaction to slights,…

    Lol, he actually said that, coming from a Russian? As if he himself had a total lack of self-awareness to his own.

    That’s just a Western trope/meme and Russians, being somewhat Western or at least in a way within the Western sphere, isn’t immune to it either. Plus, Russians are probably a little envious that they’re country is kinda shitty compared to their Eastern counterpart. I haven’t really encountered Chinese with a consummate lack of perception. Sure there are bumbling social idiots (but that’s everywhere), but I’ve encountered few and I’ll see them one time and the second time I see them in public a few months later they seem to have changed.

  33. *Yawn*

    “The West is evil, China and other enemies of the West are good.”

    You’re quite the predictable one-trick pony, Andre.

  34. fenestol says:

    an agent and darling of the Western intelligence agencies, the Dalai Lama.

    Yes, it’s amazing how many people this con man has fooled.

    • Replies: @Moi
    , @Malla
  35. @Arioch

    Jason seems to think what the English media spins about China matters to China.

    And that China has ways to counter the spins.

    So naive. Too naive.

    All the bullshit are worthless in the face of economic and military might.

    Imagine Russia’s military might + China’s GDP. In a single country.

    That is the stuff of nightmares for the old fucktards at DC. And it is the reason for the economic war right now.

    • Replies: @Arioch
  36. Anonymous[391] • Disclaimer says:

    “ smear China (PRC), to derail its progressive course, and to arrest its increasingly positive and optimistic influence on all the corners of the world.”

    Tell me more about how the social credit system of denying citizens free movement or ability to participate in the economy is a good thing, because I guarantee you have wailed and gnashed your teeth when Western countries do the same thing.

    While you’re at it, I’d be amused to spin this report as “malicious propaganda”

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-07-19/something-just-broke-china-repo-rate-soars-1000-overnight

    You know something Andre? I call you and Godless out a lot, but you two being hypocritical credulous shills on behalf of the PRC to such a degree of hyperbolic messianic pedestalization as would make most American Evangelical Zionists look like Neo-Nazis isn’t what I have a problem with. It’s the fact that you’re taking up space on a site ostensibly meant to be about encouraging the revitalization and defense of the West that is galling. What are you even doing here, how has the plot been so lost that a couple of senile, self-crippled old men making excuses/outright denying the disaster of Mao’s Great Leap Forward and claiming the Chinese Communist model is something to look up to have become acceptable for the feature section.

    I really should be thanking you, you’ve let me know that there is nothing more of value to expect from the Unz Report, if voices like yours are what we have to expect going forward.

    • Replies: @Biff
    , @Anonymous
    , @Anon
  37. Biff says:
    @Anonymous

    It’s the fact that you’re taking up space on a site ostensibly meant to be about encouraging the revitalization and defense of the West that is galling.

    You might want to check the link:

    http://www.unz.com/masthead/

  38. Anonymous[327] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    The people in that video are certainly poor, but they’ve a roof over their heads, free time to gamble and spare cash for cigs. I expected a chinese version of ‘Seattle is Dying’ and I am disappointed.

    I don’t believe there aren’t homeless in China but your video sure ain’t helping the point.

  39. Anon[792] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Revitalization can be achieved by observing where others have succeeded. Not by putting down others and diminishing their achievements whenever possible.

  40. Alfred says:
    @Marcus

    I thought the ozone story had been revealed for what it is a along time ago.

    It is perfectly normal and cyclical for the Antarctic to have an “ozone hole” – nothing to do with CFC’s.

    The real story is that the patents for the most suitable refrigerator fluids were running out so they banned to old version and insisted that everyone has to use the newly patented chemicals – which were more expensive and less suitable.

    There’s Money In The Air:the CFC Ban And Dupont’s Regulatory Strategy

    https://eng.ucmerced.edu/people/awesterling/SPR2014.ESS141/Assignments/DuPont

    Plenty of things are cyclical in nature – el Niño, Australian droughts and floods, tides, Europe’s climate, coral bleaching etc.

    The media like to present us a linear world, but the world is not like that.

    Because the “Ozone Hole” is going away for its own reasons, they come out with headlines like this:

    NASA Study: First Direct Proof of Ozone Hole Recovery Due to Chemicals Ban

    The idea behind this headline is that humans are so powerful and important that we can actually change nature. Just another version of the “Global Warming” nonsense.

    Amidst Global Warming Hysteria, NASA Expects Global Cooling

    Do expect colder weather over the next decade, crop losses and a big rise in food prices!

  41. Talha says:
    @anon26_

    Thanks for the citations, I’ll look into it.

    Peace.

  42. Alfred says:
    @Talha

    I think Iran would have major trouble if Azeris could be convinced to go nationalist and separatist.

    My apologies. I was forced to laugh at this comment.

    Most of the officers in Iran’s army are Azeris. The Supreme Leader of the country, Ali Khamenei, is Azari. What more could the “nationalist” Azaris wish for?

    And all the oil and gas is outside Azerbaijan. They are benefiting from the resources of other nationalities/races/tribes.

    • Replies: @Talha
  43. Alfred says:
    @Colin Wright

    the indigenous population certainly wasn’t Han

    Are we to take it that this “indigenous population” runs Taiwan?

    My dear friend, they are in a similar situation with respect to the Han as the Uyghurs are with China. Chiang Kai-Shek moved his army and the precious metal reserves of China to Taiwan. The Han have been running the place ever since.

    There are two versions of Han. Those running the mainland and those running Taiwan. It is a family squabble. Mao Zedong went to school with Chiang Kai-Shek.

  44. Antares says:
    @Jason Liu

    This is the main problem with modern Chinese thinking–the complete inability to engage in ideological and moral conflict. Or worse, the belief that those things aren’t important. We’re stuck with the peasant mindset where money + military solves all problems. They don’t. This mindset will lead to defeat in the global culture war and is already isolating China. I understand if the nouveau riche middle class thinks this way, since they were peasants just a generation ago, but the CCP leadership should really know better.

    I noticed the same when I was in China. Chinese people seem trustful to me but also simple minded.

    But they have a western counterpart:

    Mao’s Great Leap Forward […] Chinese Communist model

    Many people from the west are 50+ years behind.

  45. Tom67 says:

    I am in business in central asia. I won´t bother to refute the utter nonsense that you Andre are spouting. Just to anybody who might read these lines: believe me what is happening is worse than your worst dreams. It is something out of Orwells 1984 but enacted with modern technology. All governments in Central Asia are more or less dependent on China and are heavily being leaned upon to censor the news. Still things get out, relatives are being imprisoned (all muslim minorities are affecfted not only the Uighurs) and the few that make it out (dual nationality Kasakhs) have truly horrible stories to tell. What China is doing will have long term consequences and not even the most heavy handed censorship will prevent this having repercussions for the neighbouring governments of Kazakhstan, Kirgistan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan who are doing nothing. Chinas belt and road will not survive this. You can´t racially profile, imprison and take the children away from such a large number of people who are basically the same as the people across the border and not get a visceral reaction.
    Just imagine a Kazakh businessman travelling in Xinjiang and being harrassed all the time because of his looks and you know what he will think about China. Multiply that by a thousand and then you know how successful “belt and road” will be

    • Agree: Moi
  46. S says:
    @Arioch

    Overt tactical endeavors for Russia, covert strategic creeping in for China.

    Interesting, that’s exactly what the Soviet defector Anatoly Golitsyn claims Russia and China have been doing ever since the supposed Sino-Soviet split of the 1950’s. He said it was a planned strategic false split from the beginning and called this the ‘scissors strategy’. When the time was right, though, Russia and China would form ‘one clenched fist’ and strike the Capitalist West.

    What’s particularly telling is that British intelligence agencies lauded Golitsyn as highly accurate in the information he provided, but particularly decried and denounced his claim of a false split between Russia and China.

    Could it be the reason for that denunciation is they don’t wish people to look too closely at the UK and it’s historic relationship with the US?

    If you ‘reverse engineer’ Golitsyn’s claim about Russia and China, and apply it to the US/UK , it looks as though the Capitalist US and UK engaged in a planned strategic false split themselves from 1776 – 1900. Since the formation of the ‘special relationship’ in 1900, the Capitalist US/UK has formed ‘one clenched fist’ towards the world, ie the two world wars. And the coming blow out of a third?

    Broadly speaking, I think humanity has been being ‘played’ and manipulated with this manufactured and contrived dialectic of Capitalist thesis, and Communist anti-thesis, since 1776 and 1789 respectively, and is being led to the ultimate hell of a global Orwellian police state enforced ‘multi-cultural’ synthesis.

    Wake up from the nightmare people’s of the world.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  47. Wow, at last an article by this author that doesn’t side with unruly minorities. But still in his eyes those surviving ISIS terrorists magically become legitimate refugees when they head West but remain brutal terrorists when they head East.

    Good luck with the BRI project. One Colonel Muamar Gaddafi had a similar grand project – to irrigate the Sahara and turn it into farmland, to feed and employ all those Africans so they don’t have to cross the Med to get into the EU, and what did the West do to help?

  48. Arioch says:
    @last straw

    Both are important, but priorities are opposite.

    Remember Serbia, Libya. “Soft power” could not get them – so NATO “hard power” overrun them and “bombed ot stone age”.

    Of course it is “better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick”, better have a lot of soft power than none at all. If all other aspects are the same. But in real world they are not. You can allocate resources to this or to that. You can buy cannons or butter.

    You can, and perhaps should, invest into “soft power” when your “hard power” is strong enough to secure your survival. Then West have no other options but “soft power” so “soft war” ensues.
    But before you are safe from “hard war” investing into “soft power” would be as wise as investing into public speeches before shoot-out with mafia.

  49. Arioch says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    Jason has some points.

    > what the English media spins about China matters to China.

    It does effect China. It even did effect COMECOM, USSR’s economic block, which was largely autarky, and which had censorship.

    China is global economic actor, so international media spins definitely affect them.
    And Chinese have much more access to western media, than Soviets in 1970-s and 1980-s had.

    > And that China has ways to counter the spins.

    Too vague, generic question to be answered.

    China can and tries to counter the spins in specific topics, for specific audiences, in specific countries.
    Of course China can not remove ALL western media at once, and can not remove EVERY person trusting Western media.
    The can not obliterate West in this media war. But they can try to gain and hold footholds here and there.

    Granted, China was keeping low-profile for years pushing Russia on forefronts to annoy and “agr” West. So RT is openly discriminated against in USA, not some Chinese media yet.

    But then, Russia also can not “counter the spins” in absolute terms. Yet during these years RT – modelled largely after western “free” media in USSR/RF – proved enough of thorn for US 1% that they blatantly infringed on their hyped freedoms and inclusivity. Chinese, being much more rich than Russia, of course can sustain a dozen of RT-scale media houses (afterall RT is present in very few of West nations, for example there is no RT Sweden). And be discriminated against too. But it will take years.

    > All the bullshit are worthless in the face of economic and military might.

    It is not that extreme, but definitely “economic and military might” is of larger priority.
    Those who doubt should just remember Serbian journalist, blown with their TV tower by NATO bombers.

    > Imagine Russia’s military might + China’s GDP. In a single country.

    They will not be one country, and perhaps no one need it.
    But they were pushed to realize their common need to survive and interdependence.
    And DC arrogant idiots did it themselves despite huge resistance from largely pro-American elites in both Russia and China.
    Even when westernized Chinese painter in Canada was but screaming about it.
    It was unconceivable blunder….

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  50. onebornfree says: • Website

    China: The Perfect High-Tech Totalitarian State

    ” In China, censorship, now largely automated, has reached “unprecedented levels of accuracy, aided by machine learning and voice and image recognition.” — Cate Cadell, Reuters, May 26, 2019.

    As in other Communist regimes, such as that of the former Soviet Union, the Communist ideology does not tolerate any competing narratives. “Religion is a source of authority, and an object of fidelity, that is greater than the state… This characteristic of religion has always been anathema to history’s totalitarian despots…” — Thomas F. Farr, President of the Religious Freedom Institute, in testimony before the Congressional-Executive Commission on China, November 28, 2018.

    In 2018, China had an estimated 200 million surveillance cameras, with plans for 626 million surveillance cameras by 2020. China’s aim is apparently an “Integrated Joint Operations Platform” which will integrate and coordinate data from surveillance cameras with facial recognition technology, citizen ID card numbers, biometric data, license plate numbers and information about vehicle ownership, health, family planning, banking, and legal records, “unusual activity”, and any other relevant data that can be gathered about citizens, such as religious practice, travels abroad, and so on, according to reports of local officials and police.

    At the moment, China is in the process of fulfilling what Stalin, Hitler and Mao could only dream about: The flawless totalitarian state, powered by digital technology, where the individual has nowhere to flee from the all-seeing eye of the Communist state…………….”:

    From: “China: The Perfect High-Tech Totalitarian State”:
    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/14365/china-totalitarian-technology

    And the US is not too far behind China. The idiotic, murderous, destructive of individual freedom, anti-free market communist ideology in the US is literally everywhere. As far as I can see, most of the writers and commentators here are either full on communist, or getting there, but remaining in denial of the obvious, because, if they’re not communist, they’re national socialist [Fascist], which is merely a minor variation on the exact same “grand” theme :i.e. collectivism/totalitarianism. What a joke!

    And so it goes. Stoopid is as stoopid does.

    No regards, onebornfree

  51. Arioch says:
    @Marcus

    > Makes sense, Russian “leadership” is disjointed

    you have to remember that it started about 2000, if we can count Putin’s “enthroning” as kind of “official” admitting by elites that their survival requires nation defense. Back then not only leadership but the whole population was very “disjointed”.

    China was not smashed like USSR so they had more cohesion obviously.

    > country is often lawless

    That is said by every opposition about every country. Chinese and American too.

    > They aren’t capable of playing the long game like China.

    Depends what “long” stand for for you here.

    I would not say that rotting and crash of imperial dynasty in China at the dawn of XX century was part of some Chinese across-centuries deep plan.

    To a degree Chinese recent successes were based upon “bad example” they had at their hands in USSR/Russia, which they could research to better understand “Western ways” and how to counter them.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Astuteobservor II
  52. Antoine says:

    Without entereing in the moral terrain of what china is doing you andrew are a complete liar

  53. Arrow says:

    Right after the 1965 coup, tens of thousands of Chinese people were murdered in cold blood, hundreds of thousands were enslaved, countless women gang-raped, millions forced to change names, abandon their native language, character and culture.

    Nice.
    I don’t care for the Chinese. They are devouring my country like a plague of locusts. And they just keep coming. They are definitely the “made in China” version of jews.
    Nice to hear there exists a Chinese Chechnya on their border. I hope the Uyghurs do maximum damage to these soulless insect people.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @denk
  54. GMC says:

    Good article Andre’ – even this close to the ME as I am , I couldn’t put the new and improved US/NWO al Nusra together and now I see it. Fighting Terrorism is the # 1 thing to do for Russia, China and the rest of the countries on the Western NWO hitlist. Of course, those in the countries that haven’t been in a war , war zone or in life threatening situation where you can get your nuts or head chopped off will find it hard to really understand, why the rest of the world needs to come together and fight. Fight this US, EU,Saudi, Israeli, backed bunch of out of work , deranged, mercenaries that have No business calling themselves anything but murderers. They don’t attack the US, Sauds or Jews – evidence who owns them. Would love to see them turn on their masters , someday. Spacibo

  55. Talha says:
    @Alfred

    Well that just means convincing them would be that much harder.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  56. Yee says:

    Jason Liu,

    “…but the CCP leadership should really know better.”

    Jason, the US has spent decades and heaven knows how much money and personnels to gain control of the world media. China doesn’t have the same sort of resources and circumstances the US has. It’s not the CCP doesn’t “know better”, it’s they know there’s no chance to win in this battle.
    .

    ————————————-
    Soft Power: The U.S. Cultural Offensive and Japanese Intellectuals
    Takeshi MATSUDA

    By the end of World War II, the U.S. government had recognized how important a cultural dimension of foreign policy was to accomplishing its broad national objectives. International relations in the twentieth century was no longer just a matter of relations between governments; it was a matter of people-to-people contact as well. President Harry Truman clearly sensed the advent of a new age. On August 31, 1945, he proclaimed that “the nature of present-day foreign relations makes it essential for the United States to maintain information activities abroad as an integral part of the conduct of our foreign affairs.”

    • Agree: Biff
  57. Marcus says:
    @Arioch

    you have to remember that it started about 2000, if we can count Putin’s “enthroning” as kind of “official” admitting by elites that their survival requires nation defense. Back then not only leadership but the whole population was very “disjointed”.

    Many to most of the power brokers of that time are still around. Putin only “rules” with the consent of the siloviki (who often don’t see eye to eye )

    That is said by every opposition about every country. Chinese and American too.

    In Russia’s case it ‘s very true, it’s even more violent than the US, lots of mafia hits (contra Western media, Putin himself probably isn’t involved)

    I would not say that rotting and crash of imperial dynasty in China at the dawn of XX century was part of some Chinese across-centuries deep plan.

    I mean the post-Deng CPC cabal, they seem fairly unified in vision at least.

  58. This fellow’s brazen puff pieces are unworthy of a place on Unz Review. Should one wish an objective, boots-on-the-ground travel diary by a long-time China hand and prize winning translator of Chinese Buddhist sutras and poetry, get a copy of Bill Porter’s 2006 Zen Baggage. Granted, it’s somewhat dated, but somehow one doubts that in 13 years rural China has become Shangri-la. The country has made great strides (not leaps), but…

    • Replies: @Anon
  59. Blankaerd says:

    I’d rather see a state putting troublesome minorities into concentration camps instead of inviting them over and artificially boosting their status and then giving them control over the country, which is what the West appears to be doing ever since 1965 or so.

    So even if the Chinese concentration camps story is fake news or at least highly exaggerated by the West, I think the real problem is that the West isn’t imitating these type of harsh measures against troublesome minorities. These measures are exactly what a healthy state should adopt in order to protect its majority.

    In the long run I don’t think these anti-Chinese propaganda pieces (assuming this article is entirely correct in its assessments, which is something I doubt) will matter much at all. Just going by the fact that there are about 1.4 billion Chinese, that they have a much smaller gene pool (compared to whites) thus having a much higher degree of ethnocentrism and a mean IQ of about 108 means that they are outperforming the West and indeed will continue to outperform the West for the foreseeable future. They have already overtaken the US economically and with the US becoming ever more internally divided one can reasonably predict they will kick the US off its pedastal on political and military grounds as well.

  60. Anon[363] • Disclaimer says:
    @Montefrío

    China went from rock bottom, with GDP less than almost all African countries to being the pre-eminent country in the world in under 60 years. If that is not a leap, I dont know what is.

  61. Moi says:
    @romar

    What does “jihadi” mean?

  62. Moi says:
    @fenestol

    Mr. Lama, intellectually speaking, is low bandwidth and enjoys a comfortable life in India where folks from the west can come and gaze adoringly at him. Nice gig!

  63. Moi says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    NATO is a club exclusively for white Christians.

  64. Malla says:
    @Moi

    NATO is a club exclusively for white Christians.

    Yet NATO is doing everything to make their member nations non White and Muslim. NATO operatives in the Middle East have been encouraging migrants to go to Europe.

  65. Malla says:
    @fenestol

    Conman he might be but he should have been the official ruler of Tibet according to tradition.

  66. Anon[424] • Disclaimer says:

    Most of the countries have their own ballbusting minorities . China has her uygurs and taiwanese , the USA has her negros and her hispanics , Russia has her ukrainians , Canada has her quebequois , France has her corsicans , England has her scots and irish , India has her moslems , Chile and Argentina have their mapuches etc….etc….

    These minorities are easily manipulated by other countries against the national mayorities and against the national interest of their own countries , but it is a very dangerous game for the minorities . They may think that the foreing sympathy and help is sincere , which usually is not . They usually overestimate themselves , inflate their egos , betray their countries , and end up with their own balls busted . They may end end up repressed and discriminated , with a civil war and impoverished like Ukraina , and even exterminated , like the armenians in Turkey .

  67. Marcus says:
    @Moi

    What a silly comment, they went to war on behalf of Muslims against Christians in Yugoslavia and the chief NATO member is increasingly neither White nor Christian

  68. Marcus says:
    @Talha

    I get the impression that the Azeri govt. has been very successful in inculcating its populace with extreme nationalism and Pan-Turkism (helps distract from how such an oil-rich republic is still poor). It will be hard to recruit Iranian Azeris, but they’ll definitely try.

  69. Marcus says:
    @Arrow

    They are definitely the “made in China” version of jews.

    Not at all, they are often a market dominant minority, but the similarities end there: even in Indonesia they didn’t complain much in the face of severe oppression. Jews whine about being called Jews.

    I hope the Uyghurs do maximum damage to these soulless insect people.

    Lol you’re going to be sorely disappointed.

    • Replies: @Arrow
  70. Republic says:

    It is very clear that the strategy of the US is to use Muslims to destabilize
    various areas of Russia, China, and Myanmar

    The US tried to destabilize Russia in Checknya , it failed, it tried to do the same thing
    In Tibet and that also failed, it is trying to disrupt the Belt and Road Initiative in China
    By creating unrest among the Uyghurs. That does not appear to be working.

    It is trying to create instability in Myanmar among the Rohingyas, to disrupt the ambitious economic plans of the Chinese in that country.

    Look for more US attempts to ferment rebellion in the various “stans,.” in Central Asia.

    Time seems to running out for the US to achieve these goals!

  71. I did not get much above a reasonable confidence level, that the author’s version of events is the veritas and factual. There are several contradictions. Much of what he writes is third hand. Who knows who these sources are? The Dalai Lama, a “Western Puppet” troublemaker for Tibetan terrorists?

    Everybody lies these days. There is very little incentive NOT to. What seems certain is that Diversity is NOT Strength. And Islam is incapable of accommodating any religion or belief system besides ITS OWN NARROW SECT, be it Sunni, She-it, etc, etc. And that the Han Chinese are intolerant and don’t want diversity; it’s our way or the highway-to hell.

    BTW, Mr. Author, why would Turkey, a financial and economic disaster allow Ungyar terrorism enablers to exist on its shore, and given their proclivity for barbarism and savagery, welcome them with public open arms? He believes in Multiculturalism?

    Certainly, this author is no Sidney Shanberg or Seymour Hersch, who earned their credibility the hard way, by relentless pursuit of the facts, despite enormous obstacles. And over at period of time that characterizes an obsessive compulsive personality.

    Hypothetically, If I were running China, I would offer the Mussies a deal of accommodation and negotiate a reasonable deal, which would favor the Chinese, but still leave the Ungyars with some dignity and devices. If not, then force their hand with force and pain. But trying to make them into robots is a mistake, as is erasing their culture.

  72. chrimony says:

    So can we get a clearcut answer or not: Does China have a million Uyghurs in “re-education” camps?

  73. @Moi

    What about Turkey? You already kicked them out of NATO.

  74. @KA

    China, like the Jews, takes advantage of Americans, because we allow them to, by allowing bribery of our own to stand, by being good meek Christians, and sadly, living in a manner that promotes and makes easy blackmail.

    Il Forza Del Destino seems very weak among Indo-European peoples of the West. It’s as if we are too scared and tired to fight against our own extinction and degradation. See the essay by John Kaminsky, https://www.darkmoon.me/2019/human-destiny-hijacked/

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @KA
    , @John K. Arate
  75. Agent Vitlchek is nearly incoherent in his rants – a staged literary style apparently borrowed from history books and speeches of 1917 Revolutionary Russia – including Lenin’s exclamation points. He’s against “the west” he’s my kinda of guy, unless you are some kind of fake-commie. Comrade!

    Vltchek creatively attributes all sorts of empty gossip to the USA that no one else does in quite the same way – these attributions are facile polemics to keep the zombies completely uniformed. This kind of censorship rules “the west”. LaRouche passed away just this year, some of the best entertainment of the past century.

  76. denk says:
    @Colin Wright

    The last time you barged into another Uighur article, accusing GR of ‘whitewashing China’s crimes’ in Xinjiang, I doubt you’d even read the article in the first place.

    So pray tell, genius,
    Have you or your ilks provided a shred of evidence on ‘2millions UIghurs tortured in gulags’ ?

    its a big fat 0, nein, nada, zilch.

    How do you ‘whitewash‘ a crime when there’s none,
    genius ?

    Your guerilla style one liner attack is getting tiresome and looking silly , kiddo !

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  77. denk says:
    @Colin Wright

    If you’r so into ‘indigenous rights’ , why dont you people show an example.…..go back to where you belong. ?

    Anglos get the fuck outta USA, CANADA, OZ, NZ, Hawaii, Diego Garcia, OKinawa, Jeju, ……

    UN
    US should return land grabs to Indian tribes,

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/04/us-stolen-land-indian-tribes-un

  78. Marcus says:
    @Poupon Marx

    China, like the Jews, takes advantage of Americans, because we allow them to, by allowing bribery of our own to stand, by being good meek Christians, and sadly, living in a manner that promotes and makes easy blackmail.

    Another way to look at it is that our greedy capitalists transported manufacturing there and the people were too dumb and/or distracted by cornball Reaganite patriotism and TV to care. The WN narrative of Whites as virtuous, meek victims is the most ahistorical, puerile thing I’ve ever encountered.

  79. peterAUS says:
    @Tom67

    Informative.
    Especially

    What China is doing will have long term consequences and not even the most heavy handed censorship will prevent this having repercussions for the neighbouring governments of Kazakhstan, Kirgistan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan who are doing nothing. Chinas belt and road will not survive this. You can´t racially profile, imprison and take the children away from such a large number of people who are basically the same as the people across the border and not get a visceral reaction.

  80. Arrow says:
    @Marcus

    I dunno, Chinese military history is massively embarrassing. I wouldn’t be shocked if a small Uyghur minority totally BTFO of China. The chinks are overdue for another genocide.
    Besides, the Uyghurs do have a legitimate claim to nationhood. Can’t wait for the Chinese version of the Chechen wars.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Astuteobservor II
  81. @Antares

    Chinese simple minded? Hahahahahahhaha. This has to be the stupidest comment I have read here regarding the Chinese. You have zero dealings with the Chinese :p. Absolute zero.

    1.3 billion people competing for limited resources, and you call them simple minded, lol 🤣

  82. Marcus says:
    @Arrow

    I dunno, Chinese military history is massively embarrassing. I wouldn’t be shocked if a small Uyghur minority totally BTFO of China. The chinks are overdue for another genocide.

    Why? They’ve been conquered before (like everyone else), but always expelled the conquerors eventually. They resisted the Japs much more ferociously than Europeans resisted the Nazis or Soviets as a whole. The Chechens have much more of a warrior tradition than Uighurs, favorable terrain and Russia was in a state of collapse, only an idiot would make that comparison

    • Replies: @Arrow
  83. @Arrow

    Lol, I hope China and the Chinese rape your country some more.

    It is not the USA is it? Other wise your comment would have to be the stupidest in the history of unz.

    • Replies: @Arrow
  84. @Arioch

    This is very true. China used the USA vs USSR very effectively.

    But isn’t true of USA and USSR also?

    All three used each other.

  85. @denk

    ‘US should return land grabs to Indian tribes,’

    Why stop there?

    The current Indian tribes generally displaced other Indian tribes — and for that matter, the earlier Indian tribes seem to have exterminated some archaic form of homo sapiens.

    …so they’ve no more right to the land than you have to my car if you steal it and then someone steals it from you.

    • Replies: @denk
  86. Agent76 says:

    Jul 11, 2019 China’s Uighur detention condemned by 22 nations in letter to UN

    Ambassadors from 22 countries, including the United Kingdom, Canada, and Japan, have condemned China’s treatment of Uighurs, a Muslim minority group from the Xinjiang region. In an unprecedented move, they issued a letter.

    July 14, 2019 China Building Secular Schools for Muslims in Xinjiang Province. Western Media Critique

    The BBC’s article, “China Muslims: Xinjiang schools used to separate children from families,” attempts to depict boarding schools – a concept popular in the UK itself – as a “form of internment” and “cultural re-engineering.”

    https://journal-neo.org/2019/07/13/bbc-says-china-building-schools-is-bad/

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @denk
  87. Anon[424] • Disclaimer says:
    @Agent76

    Malvinas and Gibraltar free of english pirates !!!!!

  88. KA says:
    @Poupon Marx

    Blaming China for our ills reminds me the effects of the media ‘s negative depictions of the countries we don’t like
    Our liking and disliking have been the results of the media ‘s dancing around the imagination .

    It’s a core feature of our daily indirect much more sustained education our busy American get from media but we are selective in our idiocy as well as our wisdom . We don’t believe Regan or Bush or Clinton or Obama or Trump when domestic stuff is concerned
    But we swallow the lies they talk about foreign countries .

    China didn’t make money on the back of Latin America Africa or ME . So we search and then find something else to complain about China .

  89. @S

    Interesting, that’s exactly what the Soviet defector Anatoly Golitsyn claims Russia and China have been doing ever since the supposed Sino-Soviet split of the 1950’s.

    I can open you one secret (but it has to stay secret between you and me, nobody else should know it)–most (not all) of what Soviet dissidents and defectors told about USSR/Russia was primarily a BS fed to people in the West when it was understood what they wanted to hear. Don’t tell it to anybody;))

    • LOL: S
    • Replies: @S
  90. Last time Vltchek was gaslighting y’all for bein’ miserable American s.o.b. peons. Today he’s delivering his follow up.

    Mao was a Yalie and cooperation between Zio and Chinese gangster elites has not been interrupted in the modern era.

    Blackwater founder’s Hong Kong firm signs Xinjiang training camp deal

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/01/blackwater-founder-erik-prince-to-build-training-camp-in-chinas-xinjiang

    Trump, Xi talked Syria strike over ‘beautiful’ chocolate cake

    https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/12/politics/donald-trump-xi-jingping-syria-chocolate-cake/index.html

    For those still stuck in the matrix, I’ll make it explicit. Donald Trump fake bombs Syria and crows about it to Xi over chocolate cake. Soon after reports begin circulating Erik Prince has been hired to manage China’s Uighur perception problems — and also run concentration camps in which a certain type of young frustrated male can be radicalized then used for the benefit of all.

    Andre you should get a service dog, you dishonest lying suck.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  91. @Where-Wolf

    Blackwater founder Eric Prince is also the brother of Trump Sec of Education Betsy Devos.

    It’s a small world after all.

  92. melpol says:

    Cults that preach the murder of all outsiders must be disbanded. Muslim extremists are a cult and must be punished or educated to be peaceful. China believes in education to end extremism.

  93. Arrow says:
    @Marcus

    They’ve been conquered before…

    You bet they have.

    …but always expelled the conquerors eventually.

    No, not exactly.

    They resisted the Japs much more ferociously than Europeans resisted the Nazis or Soviets as a whole.

    According to you. But in reality the Japanese treated China like a football field. Meanwhile the Germans killed millions of Red Army. Show me the millions of Japanese soldiers the Chinese killed lol

    The Chechens have much more of a warrior tradition than Uighurs,

    Sure, that’s why Uyghurs join ISIS and fight all over the world to practice for their separatism, just like Chechens. But in all fairness, you do not need much of a warrior culture to beat the Chinese. Anyone can beat the Chinese, and practically everyone has.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @last straw
  94. Arrow says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    No, not the US. Guess again, it shouldn’t be too hard.
    It’s ok, chinksects will be easier to deal with than Mexicans or Muslims. Your country is getting raped worse than mine, I promise you.

  95. @Arioch

    The first three sentences were meant to be for the same paragraph, separated to emphasize. Basically English media doesn’t matter, China cannot counter as they have zero control over English media, and it is naive to think other wise. China doesn’t have an economic block. Do you think the USSR would have died if it’s economy was the same size as USA and growing? It collapsed because it got stupid leaders for the last of its 20 years.

    If your best example of fighting back is RT, sorry, I am not convinced.

    What Jason doesn’t understand is that soft power comes naturally once you have hard power and money. Money is the single most important thing as both hard and soft power requires it. Another reason for the economic war.

    You misunderstood me. I was not talking about Russia n China becoming one country, but that China becoming a country that is rich and having a powerful military.

    What were the chances of a permanant trade and tech embargo against China after 1989? That in retrospect was the last chance US had in containing China’s rise.

  96. @Poupon Marx

    by being good meek Christians,

    This kind of passivity was only possible because the Jews in charge of our economy have de-Christianized America’s foreign policy. America was more protectionist when it was more religious, but the Jews and the alternative media will never tire of using Christians as a scapegoat.

  97. @KA

    Why shouldn’t Christians be upset about being arrested as political prisoners for not praying in front of a picture of Mao and having their organs harvested? Unfortunately for them, most mainland Chinese are completely docile and easily programmed by the state, Einstein was right, the Chinese are a “peculiar herd-like nation… often more like automatons than people.”

    • Replies: @KA
  98. Marcus says:
    @Arrow

    -Engla do was conquered by a handful of Normans and never expelled them, they only became assimilated (somewhat, people with Norman surnames still overrepresented at elite universities). How humiliating!
    -A 4 Chan post, in-depth research there!
    -I meant Europeans who were occupied by either the Germans or Soviets. There was some resistance, but it was minor compared to what the Japanese faced in China. They conquered cities but could never control the countryside. Most Japanese troops were in China by far, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor primarily because it was frustrated by continued Chinese resistance, see Saburo Ieanaga’s work. Just to give a few examples of Jap failures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Jingyu
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Changsha_(1939)
    -Chechens are much more highly regarded than Uighurs ffs. Uzbeks are seen as the most formidable Central Asian mujahedin

  99. @denk

    ‘The last time you barged into another Uighur article, accusing GR of ‘whitewashing China’s crimes’ in Xinjiang, I doubt you’d even read the article in the first place.

    So pray tell, genius,
    Have you or your ilks provided a shred of evidence on ‘2millions UIghurs tortured in gulags’ ?

    its a big fat 0, nein, nada, zilch.

    How do you ‘whitewash‘ a crime when there’s none,
    genius ?

    Your guerilla style one liner attack is getting tiresome and looking silly , kiddo !’

    Awww…look. It’s trying to practice hasbara.

    You keep working on it, guy. Not too impressive yet, but maybe someday…

    • Replies: @denk
  100. @Antares

    I noticed the same when I was in China. Chinese people seem trustful to me but also simple minded.

    Yup, the Chinese have not commanded the Westerner’s fine skill in spewing the doublespeak of political correctness shamelessly that are both deceiving and hypocrite. They have a lot to learn.

  101. @Tom67

    Chinas belt and road will not survive this. You can´t racially profile, imprison and take the children away from such a large number of people who are basically the same as the people across the border and not get a visceral reaction.
    Just imagine a Kazakh businessman travelling in Xinjiang and being harrassed all the time because of his looks and you know what he will think about China. Multiply that by a thousand and then you know how successful “belt and road” will be

    Is this just your wishful thinking or you have some evidence to it? After all, this sort of things is not wildly reported in Western MSM. If it is not reported by Western MSM, it doesn’t happen, right?

  102. @Arrow

    The Chinese assimilated Mongols and Manchus. They became Chinese, not the other way around.

  103. denk says:
    @Colin Wright

    kiddo,

    I saw that coming, it’s been used ad nauseum here…. and its bollocks.

    The anglos’s algebraic law of imperialism,
    – x – = + !

    So you’r in court on a car theft charge,
    Try pleading to the judge,
    yeah I stole that car from my friend,,.but I happen to know he stole it from another guy !

    Good luck with that !

    There’s a Chinese saying,
    Two wrongs doesnt make a right.

    See, different culture yields different moral standard.

    Was it Mark Twain who said,
    ‘East is East, West is west, never shall they meet, but the West insist on meeting, hence all these troubles we see today’ ?

    hehehehe

  104. denk says:
    @Agent76

    disinfoagent76

    YOu assholes wanna instigate a global jihad against China, you think the Muslims so stoopid ?

    They know who’s the great satan alright.

    The IOC no less, has called out your B.S.
    How many times you shameless twits wanna be koed ?

    https://www.unz.com/avltchek/if-you-provoke-the-entire-world-something-may-happen/#comment-3329570

    https://www.unz.com/avltchek/if-you-provoke-the-entire-world-something-may-happen/#comment-3331003

    https://www.unz.com/comments/all/?commenterfilter=denk

    YOu dont think I’d be wasting time to watch that britishbullshitcorp video do you ?

    hehhehe

    • Replies: @Agent76
  105. denk says:
    @Colin Wright

    kiddo,

    WTF is that supposed to mean ?

    Cant you just man up and admit you’ve nuthin, 0, to back up your accusations ?

    Is that so hard for anglos to admit they’r wrong ?

    I’ve tons of evidences on [[[the family]]]’s genocides on muslims tho,
    How about Fallujah , just for starter ?

  106. denk says:
    @Arrow

    This mofo reeks of certain troll.

    But if he’s a real whitie, his type make
    all that white genocides all the more palatable,.

    Bring it on, white genocides

    Karma is a bitch.

    • Troll: Colin Wright
  107. denk says:
    @Tom67

    I won´t bother to refute the utter nonsense that you Andre are spouting

    .

    I see, another way to say you’ve nuthin, what a fucking cop out.

    Just to anybody who might read these lines: believe me what is happening is worse than your worst dreams.

    Thats supposed to be your evidence ?
    Believe me kiddo, you’r my lost son.

    I am in business in central asia.

    YOu mean you’v a desk in Langley ?
    What monkey business are you doing in Central Asia,.

    P.S.
    peteraus is the residence troll here, par for the course but Moi, why so stoopid eh ?

  108. S says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    So, you’re inferring that all Soviet defectors, every last one, were disinfo agents?

    I’m quite aware the Soviet Union (as well as Capitalist States for that matter) were quite good at that sort of thing, and, to be sure, probably well over 90% (heck, make that over 95%) likely were disinfo, but I’ll let you in on a little secret, too (shhh..don’t tell anyone!), the Soviet’s like everyone else, despite pretentions, weren’t perfect.

    As for ‘wanting to hear’, that would seem to be backwards here. Most people in the US/UK lapped up the ‘Sino-Soviet split’ as real at the time, they loved the idea. What the everyday people, politicians, and spies, didn’t want to hear was that it wasn’t real.

    Are you sure that it’s not you that wants to believe certain things you ‘want to hear’ and doesn’t want to hear what Golitsyn has to say due to it’s implications?

    What Anatoliy Golitsyn said made perfect sense about a planned ‘false split’ between Communist Russia and China, ie not wishing to continue to create their own resistance (due to the world’s simple fear of their great power) as they had been doing in the early ’50’s as a Red united front, the two countries elites secretly agreed to the false split circa 1960.

    Russia and China in doing this, besides lessening resistance to Communism, also could now play good cop/bad cop towards their own people, and towards the people’s of the world.

    The clincher for me though, besides Golitsyn’s generally acknowledged great accuracy in what he had to say, was in ‘reverse engineering’ his ‘strategic false split’ scenario and applying it to the Capitalist US/UK between 1776 – 1900.

    It fits the historic record perfectly, and for the very same reasons. The US and UK played good cop/bad cop, too, during that time, and still does a bit even now.

    Communist Russia and China, it appears, were consciously (or unconsciously) simply reacting to what the Capitalist US and UK had already been doing themselves by doing the very same thing.

    And while I hardly think it’s entirely naturally occurring in this instance, the Hegelian Dialectic dynamic describes very well the 1776 artificial individualist Capitalist ‘thesis’, the 1789 artificial collectivist Communist ‘anti-thesis’, and their ‘convergence’ to form an artificial global New Man and Woman in Multi-Cultural ‘synthesis’.

    Amongst quite a few others, I’m a big believer in ‘Occam’s razor’, and as this (I submit manufactured and largely guided) dialectic fits so very well the historic record the past almost two hundred and fifty years, I generally go by it to help explain these past and current events.

    Applying it, we should therefore expect to see a topdown formal ‘Fall of Capitalism’ declared in regards to an economic collapse of the United States and it’s bloc, probably accompanyed with much economic looting, just as we saw with the Soviet Union and Communism.

    We’ll see.

    Most people, to the extent they believe in either Capitalism or Communism, it’s by simple default. It’s all they know. It’s what they were born into.

    Some, however, are what can be termed ‘true believers’ in these economic/ideological systems.

    In perhaps not too long, with the potential of the Fall of Capitalism taking place, the few remaining ‘true believers’ in the closely paralleling sister ideologies of Communism and Capitalism will be able to commismerate with, and comfort, each other in their suffering.

    https://www.amazon.com/New-Lies-Old-Anatoliy-Golitsyn/dp/0945001088

  109. @denk

    Not Mark Twain. Kipling.

    • Replies: @denk
  110. @denk

    ‘If you’r so into ‘indigenous rights’ , why dont you people show an example.…..go back to where you belong. ?’

    Didn’t you decide that two wrongs don’t make a right?

    • Replies: @denk
  111. anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:

    The Uyghurs the marching!!! To the battle stations!!

    There is something about this writeup which screams, “propaganda” … an exuberant Chinese sponsored propaganda.

    We understand now, the chinks are the most saintly of human beings. Lol! I do concede that there is some demonisation going on.

    All I know is those who ally with the enemies of Islam, take innocent lives, aren’t even muslim. They can all go to hell.

  112. anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Marcus

    I wish it were true, Islam should be treated as a mental illness

    Fair enough, you are free to treat it that way.

    So, if the belief in One and only One God of all existence, an infinitely powerful and unimaginable Being, One who neither begets nor is born (very human characteristics)… if that is a mental illness, then what about those faiths which have taken multiple man/woman/animal-like beings as “gods”?

    Can you think of anything worse than a “mental illness”? How about being spiritual pestilences on mankind, whose only end result will be an eternity in Hell, with the worst enemies of True Monotheism, such as yourself, enduring the most horrifying torment for all eternity.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  113. Marcus says:
    @anonymous

    If God is infinitely powerful, ipso facto he can assume any characteristics He wants to, in the quran, God shows human emotions. I think it’s telling that conman Muhammad threatened people who didn’t buy what he was selling with hellfire more than any other prophet. I respect individual Muslims, like Abdelkadir, Dara Shikoh or our friend Talha. But judge a tree by its fruits, Islam brings little more than misery and retardation to the world.

  114. Islam is the “Death Bone” pointed at civilization. Let the Chinese be convinced in their own mind, and do the necessary to defend their civilization.

  115. KA says:
    @John K. Arate

    In the name of religion , America has hurt a lot of countries . Christian has like docile sheep has gone along hurting the mother countries . Time to stop this .

    • Replies: @Johnny K. Arate
  116. Anon[134] • Disclaimer says:

    Less developed and sparsely populated, the southern XinJiang was the problematic area. When traveling in the area one could see how the new religious elements starting to change the behaviors of the population. Restaurants that you visited before refused to serve you because you’re not a Muslim. You would see more women covering up their face. Uyghurs were told by the religious “leaders” not to dance, not to cry in funeral, not to laugh in wedding. and not to have a job if you’re a woman. Even when your kid is sick, not to seek help from a non-Muslim doctor.

    • Replies: @Talha
  117. Talha says:
    @Anon

    Uyghurs were told by the religious “leaders” not to dance, not to cry in funeral, not to laugh in wedding. and not to have a job if you’re a woman. Even when your kid is sick, not to seek help from a non-Muslim doctor.

    Do you have some reliable source for this information?

    Peace.

  118. ‘Do you have some reliable source for this information?’

    Technically, such nonsense isn’t ‘information.’

    Rather, it’s fantasy concocted to justify a pre-existing need to hate and see others suffer.

    …so you could say the speaker indeed does have a ‘source’ for it. The source is the blackness within his own soul.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Anon
  119. APilgrim says:

    Laughable assertions: regarding a malignant & virulent invader.

    Uyghurs are invading Turkish Muhammadans. Western Europe expelled the invading Muhammadans 5 centuries ago.

    The ChiCOMS are fully justified in doing the same. (IMHPO).

    • Agree: Marcus
    • Replies: @Marcus
  120. APilgrim says:

    Is this an INTENTIONAL work of fiction, or a sick-joke?

    The Uyghurs have managed to create a very old and deep culture. Most of them are good, law abiding citizens of the PRC. Also the great majority of followers of Sunni Islam are peaceful people.

    Or perhaps an effort @ comedy?

  121. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    Well, I sort of figured when I see such really random stuff like that being posted – “don’t laugh in weddings” – but I thought I’d at least give the guy a chance to prove his point. I mean maybe many Uyghurs do espouse some insanely depressing interpretation of Islam, it’s possible, but I think it’s not much to ask for evidence.

    Peace.

  122. Marcus says:
    @APilgrim

    Ironically, Tang China was allied with the Uighurs (who were then Buddhist) against the Tibetans and Arabs in the 7th-9th centuries IIRC.

    • Replies: @Talha
  123. Talha says:
    @Marcus

    Good. So you admit then that Uighurs have been living in the area from before they became Muslim?

    Which is not surprising since that area has been under the control of various Turkic Khanates vying for influence over it from the Chinese for a very long time and preceding Islam making a serious entry into the region.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Showmethereal
  124. denk says:
    @Commentator Mike

    OH, its Kipling, the white man’s burden guru.

    The whiteys have the responsibility to take over the savages land, turn it from a hell hole into a paradise.

    But nowdays, the [[[family]]] have a new mantra,

    Colin Wright…

    Its nothing wrong to take the Navajo’s land cuz they prolly robbed it from the Apache
    hehhehe

    Thank you.

    • Replies: @Malla
  125. denk says:
    @Colin Wright

    You seem confused ?

    Well,
    The whole point is,
    An anglo lecturing on ‘indigenous rights‘ sounds kinda comical…if you know what I mean.

    Trouble is, you’r brought up the western way,

    ‘Do as I say, not what I do’

    Whereas in the East….
    Confucius sez

    ‘YOu teach by doing, not by preaching’

    YOur preaching wont work,
    The Chinese have no time for such murkkan exceptionalism nonsense.

    ——–
    East is east, west is west, never shall the two meet.
    If Kipling had kept to his words, the world wouldnt be in such a mess now.

  126. Marcus says:
    @Talha

    Yes, it was both a geopolitical battleground and a melting pot of cultures and religions even before Islam (Hellenistic influence, Buddhism/Hinduism, Christianity, Manichaeanism, various pagan traditions, etc.): the term “vibrant” would actually be apt in this case! Iranic and other Indo-European peoples were gradually displaced by the Turks, who themselves enthusiastically adopted Iranic culture as a sign of sophistication. It’s pretty sad to see Pan-Turanist types succeed in breeding hate towards Iranian peoples (and others) lately.

    • Replies: @Talha
  127. Talha says:
    @Marcus

    It’s pretty sad to see Pan-Turanist types succeed in breeding hate towards Iranian peoples

    Agreed. Persia deserves the credit for having the lion’s share of civilizing influence on every people she came across – even her invaders.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  128. Marcus says:
    @Talha

    Yep, like China and India, Iran has always “conquered its conquerors,” as Michael Axworthy put it. Just to pick one example, the Abbasid caliphs living in the shadows of the Sassanians’ ruined winter palace probably didn’t discourage comparisons with the previous Persian shahs and Charlemagne’s ambassadors naturally referred to Harun ar-Rashid as “Aaron, the King of Persia” iirc

    • Replies: @Talha
  129. Anon[134] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    You don’t travel much to that part of the world, do you?

    It is hard to believe, I know. It is a fact. This happened in some part of southern XinJiang.

    If I were to tell you that some Christian Scientists try to avoid all medical care, what would you say?

    If I were to tell you that some Muslims believe 72 virgins after life, what would you say?

    If I were to tell you some Buddhist masters were able to convince some their female followers to let them massage their crotch(along with praying and other things) so that the women could find a good boyfriend/husband, what would you say?

    If I were to tell you Obama was against same-sex marriage when he was running for president in 2008, and same-sex marriage become legal in 2015, what would you say?

    Uyghurs weren’t overtly religious to begin with. While they followed Islamic diet, they drank alcohol. (They seemed to enjoy it more than the Chinese in XinJiang) All these newly introduced religious practices infiltrated mostly in the poorer area. Fortunately things seem to have turned around in XinJiang, and the practices are gradually being eliminated as more people are getting aware of them and more Uyghurs getting jobs and their living standards improving .

  130. Joe Wong says:
    @romar

    American is the extension of the British, this evil power started in 1760. it took 259 years to mature and peak. One should expect to take just as long 259 years to defeat them. The rest of the world should be hopeful, now we can see the end of this evil power at the end of the tunnel, their beginning of the end has started.

    • Replies: @APilgrim
    , @Malla
    , @Alden
  131. Joe Wong says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    We are now living in a rapidly changing world…Peace, development, cooperation and mutual benefit have become the trend of our times. To keep up with the times, we cannot have ourselves physically living in the 21st century, but with a mindset belonging to the past, stalled in the old days of colonialism, and constrained by zero-sum Cold War mentality and western beggar-thy-neighbour culture.

    • Agree: mark green
  132. Joe Wong says:
    @denk

    Have you heard of Kangaroo Court? The White will be free from the charge and awarded the ownership of that stolen car by the court. That’s how the White stole the discovered new continents, Americas, Australia, NZ, etc. from the natives.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Malla
  133. Agent76 says:
    @denk

    “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.” Albert Einstein

    • Replies: @denk
  134. What’s this? An artifact from a parallel timeline where the USSR and Pravda still exist?

    I expect endless fawning glorification of genocidal Stalinist regimes from the World Socialist Website and the Daily Worker, not Unz.

    And I say this as someone who loathes Mohammedan savages almost as much as Communists.

    This can only be further proof that this is Clown World. Honk honk, fren.

  135. Muslims are instructed by their holy book to suppress and even destroy the culture of host countries, which is exactly what they’ve done thru history. Thus I don’t blame the Chinese or any other country for taking counter-measures.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  136. denk says:
    @Joe Wong

    Wong,

    Know something, I had actually thought of adding this line…
    But in the land of kangaroo courts, where the criminals hold sway, you never know’ 😉
    Somehow I missed out that when posting.

    hehehhe

    P.S.

    heck, posted two comments and dozeD off, wake up to Sat morning !
    Better take more care of health !

    RIP,
    The guy who’s terminally ill and posted here for a while, cant remember his name.

    That’s how the White stole the discovered new continents, Americas, Australia, NZ, etc. from the natives.

    [[[The family]]] has a ready answer for everything they do.

    Colin here, using his logic, would justify the ethnic cleansing of Diego Garcia like so…
    ‘Yeah we took their land, but they took it away from the sea gulls….’

    hehehhehe

  137. denk says:
    @Agent76

    Einstein

    ‘Posting the same crap over and over again is the sign of insanity’

    P.S.
    I heard Einstein was actually a fraud,
    plagiarising a lot from Tesla.

  138. Yee says:

    Talha,

    “Do you have some reliable source for this information?”

    They said so in interviews. Talha, do you know why these people felt more real than those of your side ? Because these people sound exactly like recoverd alcoholics and drug addicts. Their words make sense, unlike your side.
    http://cul.chinanews.com/m/gn/2018/12-31/8716738.shtml

    This man is a restaurant owner who didn’t allow non-Muslims to enter his restaurant, on some occasions even beat them. He said he now realized that, if this sort of extremism continues, his future, his family’s future would be doomed, and his hometown would be mired in turmoil.

    我意识到如果我继续那样走下去,别说是我的未来,我家族的未来,我后代的未来可能就是今天死、明天死、或者是后天死,(家乡就)变成一个动乱地区了。

    This woman said she didn’t take her child to hospital when he was ill, because hospitals are all Han people. She was not supposed to take the medicine of infidels or go to hospital.

    我孩子生病的时候我不带(去)医院,医院全部是汉族同志,他们给我开的药不能吃,他们是异教徒,我不去医院。

    This man said if he spoke Mandarin, people would say it’s the tongue of infidel. Now that he’s learned Mandarin, he felt his world has widen significantly.

    说汉语的话,我周边人,特别是那种长辈,宗教人士,他们说这是“卡菲尔”(异教徒)的话。
    比如说新闻媒体啊,看了以后觉得我们的眼光比以前开阔多了。原来我们根本就不重视,而且也看不懂,听不懂。

    This woman said she was told that houses and roads the government built for them were built by non-Muslims, so they should refuse to use them. They should worship, jihad and learn the Quran, not go to school. She also said when her father died, they told her if she cry her dad would be in hell, so she dare not cry.

    政府给我们盖的安居房还有马路都是”非穆斯林”(建的),我们应该不住在那个安居房,应该必须要做礼拜,吉哈德(“圣战”),还有学经,没有(不要)去学校。
    我爸爸去世那天有人跟我说了,如果你哭了你爸爸会下地狱的,人死了以后,别人哭对他不好,完了以后我就不敢哭,我现在想想也是特别愚昧

    • Replies: @Talha
  139. @Tom67

    There evil rapist the twisted “religion” commands them (I read the Koran) to rape lol rather China then America you know America supports ISIS and female gentile mutilation lol you know why muslim pigs do that to woman? So no non Muslim will ever wanna date them that’s why there so inbred that’s also in the Koran lol

  140. @Ralph Musgrave

    ‘Muslims are instructed by their holy book to suppress and even destroy the culture of host countries, which is exactly what they’ve done thru history…’

    Your ignorance is truly breathtaking. For example, most of what we still possess of Greek and Roman culture we only have because it was preserved and transmitted to us by Muslims.

    • Disagree: Alden
    • Replies: @As above so below
  141. Talha says:
    @Yee

    I’m glad their words make sense to you. Look, I get you trust Chinese news agencies – that is your right to. Sorry I don’t take official Chinese news agencies much more seriously than those in Egypt or Bahrain.

    The stuff these people are saying is some of the most bizarre stuff I have ever heard and I have heard quite a lot from extremist Muslim types.

    Doesn’t China do massive surveillance of Uyghurs and these religious preachers and stuff? Otherwise, what a massive waste of money.

    Can you get me a couple of secret or undercover recordings done by some infiltrators that show Uyghur religious authorities/imams/teachers preaching this stuff? You know, preferably during a Friday prayer sermon or something.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @denk
  142. Talha says:
    @Marcus

    Agree again; thanks for the reference.

    As well, one cannot neglect the role of the Persian mystics when one talks of how exactly the Uighurs (and many other Central Asian Turkic people) became Muslim in the first place. It was mostly through a well-known chain of Persian Sufis that gave rise to the Central-Asian spiritual masters based out of Bukhara, collectively named the Khawajagan (a man like Shaykh Yusuf Hamadani [born around Hamadan in Persia] generally credited as being the first), that would develop into the Naqshbandi Order. This order would then go on to be a major factor in the spread of Islam among the Uighurs.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  143. Malla says:
    @denk

    Its nothing wrong to take the Navajo’s land cuz they prolly robbed it from the Apache

    Who does this remind me of? Oh rite
    Chinese immigrant in LA Airport/Sydney Airport: “Whitey Devil stole land from Native so we can take land here too. ”
    hehehehe

    • Replies: @denk
  144. Malla says:
    @Joe Wong

    And Han steal Uyghur and Tibet lands.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Lin
  145. Yee says:

    Talha,

    “Can you get me a couple of secret or undercover recordings done by some infiltrators that show Uyghur religious authorities/imams/teachers preaching ”

    Oh, I believe you know what the head-choppers’ teachers have been teaching very well… Why you need “secret recording” anyway? You can watch actual videos of what they have put into practice…. Everybody else knows, unless they’re playing dumb.

    And of course I trust Chinese news agencies. They may not report everything happening in the country, but unlike Western media, what they report they don’t flat-out lie.

    • Replies: @Talha
  146. denk says:
    @Talha

    Sorry I don’t take official Chinese news agencies much more seriously than those in Egypt or Bahrain.

    Funny you never mention the [[[5liars]]],
    SO You do believe in their ‘UIghurs torture camps’ fairy tales dont you ?

    • Replies: @Talha
  147. Talha says:
    @Yee

    head-choppers’ teachers

    You are saying the religious leadership of the Uighurs in Xingjian is led by Daesh-type people. I get that, this is the same repetitive narrative I keep hearing.

    So what is the percentage of imams/preachers that leans this way according to you; 60-70%? If so, the below should be a piece of cake.

    Why you need “secret recording” anyway?

    As evidence for your claims as well as evidence that there is any serious efficacy of the billions of dollars the Chinese government is spending on surveillance technology.

    Look, it’s not really that hard; if what you’re saying is true, you could very easily post 2 to 3 videos of these imams/preachers making these statements – especially in a Friday sermon where they have a wide audience. Honestly not a whole lot to ask for. If you don’t have it, fine – I’ll wait, I’ve got time.

    And of course I trust Chinese news agencies.

    Of course you do; why would the Chinese government ever lie about anything? Unlike other governments, they do not lie because they say so.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
    , @Marcus
  148. denk says:
    @Malla

    what a load of bull.
    The Chinese pay top monies for the properties.
    The whities took lands by wiping out the natives.

    hehehe

    • Replies: @Malla
  149. denk says:
    @Malla

    Confucius sez

    People who live in glass house shouldnt throw stones

    Its the [[[5liars]]] family who’s always cast the first stone.

    Confucious sez.,
    Its rude not to return a favor,

    The Chinese are just returning a favor.

    hehehhe

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
  150. Malla says:
    @Joe Wong

    America is the extension of 2000 years of Jewish power. That is not going anywhere soon.

  151. Malla says:
    @denk

    So? How is that justice for Native Americans or Aborigines?

    And can you explain again when I go to Taipei, I exclaim “Where are the Taiwanese natives? Why Han everywhere? Han colonise and make Taiwanese natives minority in own land. Then Han lecture others.”

    hehehehe

    • Replies: @denk
    , @denk
  152. Malla says:
    @denk

    Confucius sez

    People who live in glass house shouldnt throw stones

    孔夫子 said that to the Han.

    Learn from your masters.

    hehehehehe

    • Replies: @denk
  153. Malla says:
    @denk

    This is map of Great Wall of China built to protect Great splendid Han from barbarian foreigners devils according to official history.

    So that should be border of China. But Han overflow across Wall. Maybe in reality Wall was built by foreigners to protect from Han overflow. But wall fail. Han overflow into inner Mongolia, Manchuria, Taiwan, Xinjiang, Tibet, South East Asia, Australia, North America, Africa. No wall can stop Han.

    hehehehe

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @denk
  154. denk says:
    @Malla

    dude,

    Are you nuts ?

    Its Colin Wright who starts lecturing Chinese on ‘indigenous rights’ , we’r returning the favor.

    jeeeesus christ

    He who cast the first stone is the hypocrite.

    Got that now ?

    • Replies: @Malla
  155. Yee says:

    Talha,

    “I’ll wait, I’ve got time.”

    Oh, don’t bother… I can see you’ve decided to play dumb.

    I’m just glad Xinjiang hasn’t had any terrorist attack in 3 years now. That’s enough proof for me Chinese government is doing the right thing.

    Some people isn’t happy with that fact is not important at all… Good night.

    • Replies: @Talha
  156. denk says:
    @Malla

    whiteys and their Indian cousins [thats you, I suppose] better learn some confucius ethics.

    That’ll stand them in good stead in the
    ‘rule based international community’

    hehehhe

    • Replies: @Malla
  157. @Talha

    Andre’s article stresses how influential ISIS is among the Uyghur minority so presumably much of what Yee wrote is correct They could be listening to radical preachers on the internet and smuggled CDs and PIN drives and not necessarily those at the local mosque, just like many who get radicalised elsewhere in the world. There are limits to surveillance, even Chinese totalitarian versions. If they’re so good why are they not preventing their Uyghur nationals from travelling abroad to join the terrorists?

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Talha
  158. denk says:
    @Malla

    So? How is that justice for Native Americans or Aborigines?

    You should ask Colin,
    he has it all figured out by the double negative theory.

    viz

    yeah we took oz from the aborigines, but hell they took it from the kangaroos

    hehehhe

  159. Lin says:
    @Malla

    And Han steal Uyghur and Tibet lands…”
    –Do you know the original aborigines of xinjiang were a Persian speaking people and the Uyghur ‘stole’ their land? These Persian speakers number at least in the 10s of 1000s in xinjiang.The modern Iranian govt never support Pamiris separatist movement in Xinjiang
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamiris
    ………..
    Regarding Tibet, as I said before, historically the dalais didn’t challenge Chinese suzerainty until in 1959 Beijing wanted to erase lama theocracy and serfdom there.
    Its well known that the Tibetans had once invaded and rampaged Tang dynasty territory. I’ve no stupid longing for nostalgia so I forgive the Tibetans for that. That invasion took place in the era before the lamas took complete control of Tibet(1st dalai was born AD 1391). The 2 reasons why Tibet was thinly populated:1)Poverty and Tibet was mostly a highland desert 2)1/3/ to 1/2 of Tibetan males were monks; they fucked each others, not women.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
  160. Malla says:
    @denk

    OK OK chill. I get your point. I got a bit carried away.
    Peace.

    • Replies: @denk
  161. Malla says:
    @denk

    learn some confucius ethics.

    I have no objections to that. I think that would be positive. But ethics are to be followed not just lectured about.

  162. Talha says:
    @Yee

    I can see you’ve decided to play dumb.

    If that’s your way of saying I don’t have any evidence to back my claims.

    I’m just glad Xinjiang hasn’t had any terrorist attack in 3 years now. That’s enough proof for me Chinese government is doing the right thing.

    OK – and there hasn’t been another plane flown into a skyscraper in the US, so I suppose the US government is doing the right thing.

    Thanks for confirming your ends-justifies-the-means approach. Not surprising honestly, but it’s always good to get a confirmation on these things from the person themselves.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @denk
  163. Lin says:
    @Malla

    “So that should be border of China. But Han overflow across Wall. Maybe in reality Wall was built by foreigners to protect from Han overflow.”
    ………..
    I can accept the above as a joke but the reality is which ‘foreigner’ groups could’ve amassed the resource to build the great wall? If you don’t believe me, ask donald trump.

    — Donald Trump, news conference at Mar-a-Lago, March 1, 2016

    “Two thousand years ago, China built the Great Wall of China. This is a serious wall. And they didn’t have Caterpillar tractors. … But they didn’t have the equipment. And they built a wall. Think of this: 13,000 miles long, and this is a serious wall, okay? This wall is wide

    • Replies: @Malla
  164. denk says:
    @Malla

    YOu dont happen to know that Mongols,
    Manchus, Tibetans had been menacing the Han’s frontier for centuries.
    Thats where the wall came in.

    Tibet was gobbled up by the Mongol rule YUan, who’s overturned by MIng, who’s conquered by the Manchus , Qing was eventually toppled by Sun Yat Sun.

    All these are invaders who’r eventaully subdued and then genocided , allowed to assimiliate.

    YOu dare to compare this to the English who fanned out to North America, Australia, Nz, took the land and wiped out the natives. ?

    What a load of bull.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
    , @Malla
  165. Malla says:
    @Lin

    I can accept the above as a joke but the reality is which ‘foreigner’ groups could’ve amassed the resource to build the great wall?

    Of course that was a joke. A jibe at denk. It is fun.

    “Two thousand years ago, China built the Great Wall of China. This is a serious wall. And they didn’t have Caterpillar tractors. … But they didn’t have the equipment. And they built a wall. Think of this: 13,000 miles long, and this is a serious wall, okay? This wall is wide

    Man, that wall is really an engineering wonder. No doubt about that. Especially when you consider the terrain in some places.

  166. denk says:
    @Malla

    I’ll allow you come in without reading the thread first.

    Yeah we took Navajo, but they prolly robbed from the Apache

    Thats Colins mantra,, not mine.
    YOu should’ve consulted him .in the first place.

    peace,
    Hans like that,

    hehehhe

    • Replies: @Malla
  167. Malla says:
    @Commentator Mike

    If it is true that it is ISIS then we know what that means.
    ISIS = ((Mossad)) + CIA)) + ((Saudi cryptos))

    • Agree: Commentator Mike
  168. denk says:
    @Talha

    I

    f that’s your way of saying I don’t have any evidence to back my claims.

    The onus is on you to prove this
    Uighurs torture camps bullshit.

    peace man.

    • Replies: @Talha
  169. Malla says:
    @denk

    All these are invaders who’r eventaully subdued and allowed to assimiliate.

    But in their native lands there were original Mongols and Manchus. Now submerged under Han numbers. And when did the Uyghur conquer the Han? Which dynasty was Uyghur?

    But if the wall was built there that means that that was the borders of the Han. Or did the Han built the wall against FOREIGN invaders inside the country!! That would be stupid.

    Hehehehe

    North America, Australia, Nz, took the land and wiped out the natives.

    Was it da English or was it microrganisms which did most of the culling of the native Americans? In the American War of Independence most Native Americans supported the British against the colonists (Americans). What do you say about that?
    The Maori were never wiped away. But the Maori wiped out the Mariori. Total genocide.

    • Replies: @denk
  170. Malla says:
    @Lin

    Do you know the original aborigines of xinjiang were a Persian speaking people and the Uyghur ‘stole’ their land? These Persian speakers number at least in the 10s of 1000s in xinjiang.

    I knew about the Pamiris but did not know that they were the original inhabitants of Xingiang. I guess, the wold is full of people conquering each other.

    • Replies: @Lin
  171. Malla says:
    @denk

    Hey denk, I dedicate this to you.

  172. Malla says:
    @denk

    Tibet was gobbled up by the Mongol rule YUan, who’s overturned by MIng, who’s conquered by the Manchus , Qing was eventually toppled by Sun Yat Sun.

    So the Han did not even conquer Tibet and yet Tibet is part of Han majority state PRC. Wow. Free Lunch.

    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @denk
    , @denk
  173. Malla says:
    @Lin

    Its well known that the Tibetans had once invaded and rampaged Tang dynasty territory.

    I am aware of that.

    The 2 reasons why Tibet was thinly populated:1)Poverty and Tibet was mostly a highland desert 2)1/3/ to 1/2 of Tibetan males were monks; they fucked each others, not women.

    I am aware of the serfdom under the lamas. But the Tibetans are a distinct ethnic group.
    As far as low population density. I do not think Tibet had the food producing capacity of say China or India. Mongolia is too sparsely populated too.

    1/3/ to 1/2 of Tibetan males were monks; they fucked each others, not women.

    1/3 to 1/2. wow. I thought only the eldest son became a monk or something.

  174. Malla says:
    @denk

    Hans like that

    Hopefully Hans like peace and not piece. As in piece of territory.
    Hehehehe

  175. Talha says:
    @denk

    Ok so there are no torture camps – fine.

    Can the Uighurs in these camps leave out of their own free will?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Lin
  176. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    That there is Daesh propaganda being spread among Muslims is pretty well known. That’s not my contention. My contention is with the impression that the Uighur religious leadership is spreading this kind of stuff. Andre also said the majority of the Uighurs are law abiding people.

    And I do believe China has a right to prevent secession movements like any other country.

    My questions are simply about; a) claims of how ubiquitous this is (again, if it is, video evidence should be plenty) and b) whether the methods of dealing with the issue is disproportionate.

    Honestly, I’d even like to see video of Daesh saying that one should not cry at their own father’ funeral.

    Peace.

  177. denk says:
    @Malla

    But in their native lands there were original Mongols and Manchus. Now submerged under Han numbers.

    Do you know how many times the Hans sent expedition forces , trekked thousands of miles to the border to repel these intruders, trodded thousands of miles back to home, only to be told there’s another intrusion, trekked thousands of miles right back to the border…
    This had been played ad nauseum for centuries, until the evenual invasion by the Manchus and Mongols/
    When Qing was overturned , it already incorporated Tibet, and Mongol until this very day.

    After all those hassle,
    Its better to keep them in house this time, 😉
    Anyway, karma is a bitch, they shouldnt complain.
    why should you ?

    pssst,
    No comparison to the English conquer of tribes tens of thousands miles away from home, which never pose a risk to motherland England.

    doncha think so ?

    gawd damn , why are you interrogating me ?
    when Indian imperialism is legendary, ?
    [a colin clone, no wonder they keep saying indian belong in the [[[family]]] 😉

    confucius sez
    people who live in glass house shouldnt throw stone.
    LIke your anglo cousin Colin, you’ve broken this sacred rule,

    according to confucius rule 2
    ‘Its rude not to return a favor’

    May be I will talk about indian imperialism next,.

    That’s all folks !

    p.s.
    Im taking it easy these days, light quota per day.

    • Replies: @Malla
  178. Lin says:
    @Malla

    (‘Pamiris’ is a loosely defined persian speaking group I read)
    Uyghurs are turks or turkic and their ancestors came from an area loosely known as ‘mongolia’. As the mongols expanded westwards, they mixed with other people and form ethnic groups of which turks is probably the largest one.
    Persia once had a huge empire and Afghanistan was part of it until the split in 1709. There’s a narrow border between xinjiang and afghanistan

  179. Marcus says:
    @Talha

    Very interesting, thanks. I think you could say that at this time, the Muslim Iranian world produced one of the most remarkable “great generation(s)” in history: Avicenna, Alberuni, Alkwharizmi, Ferdwosi, at-Tabari, etc. Certainly our Western ancestors owe them a debt for synthesizing and building upon Greek and Indian thought (the latter had been lost to the West for some time). Easy to see why Persian was the prestige language from Tarim Basin to Ottoman lands.

    • Replies: @Talha
  180. Marcus says:
    @Talha

    Something is happening for sure, and not just with the Uighurs: ethnic Kazakhs are flooding into Kazakhstan from China. Despite my distate for Islam, I’d say the PRC government is overreacting. I’m sure you’re aware the Kazakhs are hardly known for militantcy. That said, I respect China’s sovereignty and abhor any efforts whether from NATO or the UN to interfere

    • Replies: @Talha
  181. Lin says:
    @Talha

    Those camps are actually boarding schools.
    When I was a kid, I attended an Anglican school everyday separated from my parents to attend daily 15 minutes Christian sermon.
    I eventually became a Christian. Praise Jesus.
    I even once contemplated of becoming a pastor. I dropped the idea after I’m convinced Yahweh was an ex-lucifer. From another site:
    The Bang Before The Last Big One
    God/Yahweh/Allah is the master of the universe-time-space, I completely agree
    But how about before the last big bang? ‘Time’ before time? Existence before creation?

    The universe before the last big bang, if there was any, had different sets of physical laws. Even ‘time’ might have a different meaning; like one can go back in ‘time’ to bang easily and became your own biological father.

    I had a dream. I met an old fatherly figure with scaled skin, a majestic reptiloid being who kindly went through briefly the cosmic history with me:

    “Before the last Big Bang, the universe was a tranquil beautiful place with silicon-based treeoids, reptiloids,caninoids,insectoids living happily together under the benign rule of him, the reptiloid God. Space travel was easily because inertial was voided after a short prayer to the reptiloid super being. Then one of reptile god’s lieutenants, by the name Yahweh, tired of his silicon existence, had his evil ambition to usurp the divine throne. From his dark mind out bred a race of quad limbed carbon based violent humanoids who sworn allegiance to him. The reptile god’s planets fell one by one and during the nightfall war, Yahweh triggered a Big Bang to wipe out the remnant reptile force and hence also brought forth the present universe. The old reptile god self-exiled himself to an obscure corner of the new universe Yahweh wouldn’t bother

    To add insult to defeat, reptiles and canines were declared unkosher/haram

    • Replies: @Talha
  182. Talha says:
    @Marcus

    Easy to see why Persian was the prestige language from Tarim Basin to Ottoman lands.

    Even beyond that – Farsi was the official language of the Mughals for a very long time.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Malla
  183. Talha says:
    @denk

    SO You do believe in their ‘UIghurs torture camps’ fairy tales dont you ?

    I’m still trying to figure out where the truth lies in this whole matter; I certainly don’t believe the US government’s narrative.

    I’m still collecting info on the subject – I haven’t come to any conclusions I have confidence in due to the paucity of reliable and unbiased sources of information on the matter.

    Peace.

  184. Malla says:
    @denk

    Do you know how many times the Hans sent expedition forces , trekked thousands of miles to the border to repel these intruders, trodded thousands of miles back to home, only to be told there’s another intrusion, trekked thousands of miles right back to the border…
    This had been played ad nauseum for centuries, until the evenual invasion by the Manchus and Mongols/
    When Qing was overturned , it already incorporated Tibet, and Mongol until this very day.
    After all those hassle,
    Its better to keep them in house this time,

    I know, a sad part of history.
    You know how much the Barbary pirates from North Africa attack Europe’s Southern coast, took a million Europeans to slavery. How many ships of Europeans captured for centuries? The pirates once even attacked England and once even Iceland.
    That is why France wanted to keep Algeria in house. But that was evul colonialism.

    when Indian imperialism is legendary, ?

    I never denied Indian imperialism in Kashmir valley, Punjab and North East including Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh/South Tibet. If I could, I would give them independence.

    indian belong in the [[[family]]]

    Family huh. The family was helping China against Japan in WW2.
    This is before Pearl Harbour.
    In 1940, Roosevelt approved credits to the Chinese government that would be used to purchase war supplies. Negotiations with Japan in 1940 and 1941 made little headway, in part because U.S. officials demanded a full Japanese military withdrawal from China.

    Meanwhile, Time magazine (whose founder, Henry Luce, had grown up in China and was friends with China’s leader, Chiang Kai-shek) made sure readers were aware of China’s plight. Chiang appeared on the cover of Time magazine in 1938 and again in 1942, reminding American readers of the hardships of war China was enduring. He and his wife, Soong Mei-ling (often simply called Madame Chiang), were named Time’s “International Man & Wife of the Year” for 1937 for their resistance to Japanese occupation.
    1938 was before Pearl Harbour attack.
    Poster from USA. What love for soul matey!!!

    The family big boy (Rockefeller) told Stalin to support Yale educated Mao. The family after helping Chiang Kai-shek, backstabbed him and helped Chairman Mao. The family invested millions of dollars in China, provided advanced technology and now China is now potential superpower. The family also buys millions of dollars of goods from China’s factories and sells to its over loaned overcredited people and China in return buys the family’s Government bonds.
    I see China a part of the familia too.

    hehehehehe

    P.S. The family gave China veto power in UN. India with 1/16th of humanity not get veto power by familia.
    China, new cute Asian baby of family as USA, blue eyed blond baby of family is to be dumped.

    hehehehe

    May be I will talk about indian imperialism next,.

    Please be my guest.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Lin
    , @denk
  185. Talha says:
    @Lin

    Those camps are actually boarding schools.

    OK – so they can leave whenever they want right?

    As for the rest of your comment, I don’t see a coherent train of thought other than someone not being hot with not being able to eat snakes and dogs.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Astuteobservor II
  186. Talha says:
    @Marcus

    and abhor any efforts whether from NATO or the UN to interfere

    Yes agreed – this is a Muslim issue and OIC should be on point. The fact that the OIC has officially stated that it is fine with whatever China is doing means there will likely be no further investigation or action on the subject.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @denk
  187. Malla says:
    @Talha

    Farsi was the national language of India before English. Strangely it were the British who played a big part in Hindi and Urdu being the national languages of India and Pakistan receptively today.

    • Replies: @Malla
  188. Lin says:

    “OK – so they can leave whenever they want right?”
    …………..
    Whose choice? And what % of parents of kids or parents complain?
    –The kids or
    –The parents want to deprive the kids of free education
    …………..
    When I was kid, myself and my parents wouldn’t bother with such questions.
    Those who were hostile to the Anglican church might
    …………..
    A contra question:
    A falungong cultists got serious sick; his/her choice
    –Let his/her levitation capable falungong honcho to heal him/her through ‘meditation’,’spirituality’..
    –Listen to his/her parents and Seek modern medical help
    …………
    Another contra question:
    Would it be nice if Kashmir muslim kids attend only madrasa staffed by salafis preachers?

  189. Marcus says:
    @Malla

    Nationalist China actually had a pretty effective lobby at that time with TV Soong and Madame Chiang, combined with news of Japanese atrocities, it helped sway American public opinion in favor of intervention in the Pacific more than in Europe (Americans felt little sympathy for Jews, even late in the war)

    • Agree: Malla
  190. Marcus says:
    @Talha

    Movement within the region, let alone across borders, is never easy: a more recent piece
    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/09/china-to-let-thousands-of-ethnic-kazakhs-leave-xinjiang

  191. Lin says:
    @Malla

    Talking about ‘Indian Imperialism’, I would like to point out some background.
    –It’s not unusual for hindus to harbour the vision of a great hindu empire; their aspiration.
    –The yankie imperialists see size as threat, regardless it was superpower USSR, hi-tech(but militarily occupied by US) japan in the 80s/90s, fast rising china…. Actually I read that before WW1, the country US most likely went to war with was the british empire.
    ………..
    Why hasn’t the yanks shown overt hostility to bharat?
    Simply because bharat hasn’t crossed the threshold of ‘size’ nor showed signs of crossing soon and bharat could be a useful pawn countering china. Actually the region that would feel most threatened by superpower Hindustan are the oil arab kingdoms due to 1)proximity 2)Indians need oil. So far the yanks didn’t sound any ‘alarms’ to their oil interests.
    ….
    Back in 1999,when Chinese mainland GDP was a mere 0.99 US$trillion,the yanks didn’t expect it would reach US$10.3 in 2014, a mere 15 years.
    Bharat GDP reached US$1 trillion in 2007; the yanks would be alarmed if it shows sign of reaching US$10 trillion in 2022. I wish all my hindi bhais luck and prudence.

    • Replies: @Malla
  192. Lin says:

    A piece of news deliberately ignored by western media:
    Ambassadors from 50 countries voice support to China’s position on issues related to Xinjiang
    http://en.people.cn/n3/2019/0727/c90000-9600948.html

  193. Malla says:
    @Lin

    I agree with everything you say.

    It’s not unusual for hindus to harbour the vision of a great hindu empire; their aspiration.

    Oh yes, here is the map.

    I wish all my hindi bhais luck and prudence.

    Thank you my kind brother. But the Hindi bhais need to have discipline and hard work.

    The Chinese media actually advised us to work hard and not try banning Chinese Goods. Which I agree with.

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/indicators/chinese-media-has-an-advice-for-india-work-harder-if-you-want-to-catch-up/articleshow/69321820.cms?from=mdr

    Told Indians to work 996 module. Very constructive message.

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Marcus
  194. Lin says:
    @Malla

    I wouldn’t bother to refute that map which includes part of Tibet because it contains some regions which are more interesting:

    Lets imagine right now Hindustan is united with Bangladesh and Pakistan.
    india popn 2019: 1.37 billion of which 15% are muslims
    Bangladesh+pakistan popn 2019(my estimate): 0.37-0.38 billion
    ……..
    It means about closed to 0.6 billion are muslims. Or within the next 3 gens, Hindustan could be a muslim majority country. Even well before that, the muslim popn will impact indian politics to your discomfort, like beef ban will be unfeasible in large part of the country.
    ………….
    Even now,there could be serious regional demographic crisis because of internal migration particularly from densely populated bihar and uttar Pradesh into other(particularly dehli and southern) states. Remember how Bal Thackeray came to power with his regionalism?

    • Replies: @Malla
  195. Malla says:
    @Lin

    I am aware of this Muslim demographic thing. I do not know what the Hinduvadis are thinking. That is why I find them very suspicious. I have strong reasons to believe that Hindutva is closely tied to Zionism, behind the scenes it is (partly) a Zionist project.

  196. Marcus says:
    @Malla

    Why stop there? Hindu influence extended to all of Indochina and much of Indonesia. One thing I’ve noticed about right wing Hindus is that they seem to think that “the Whites” have it out for them. It’s true that Western media coverage will always take the side of Muslims due to Gulf money; but by and large, the average White person cares little about India and knowledge is limited to yoga and Slumdog Millionaire (very anti-Hindu film unfortunately)

    • Replies: @Malla
  197. Malla says:
    @Marcus

    There are some crazy maps going all the way to Europe. These guys are a bunch of idiots.

  198. APilgrim says:

    Colonial Powers: Great Britain, France, Japan, Portugal, Spain, & the USA have been expelled from China.

    It seems reasonable to assume that China will ALSO expel the Turkish Muhammadans.

    Suits me; it is their country.

    • Replies: @Malla
  199. Malla says:
    @Malla

    Both Hindi and Urdu languages have the British to thank for. Earlier it was Persian that was the official language of the Indian subcontinent. Followed by English which still is. And then Hindi and Urdu (as well as Bengali, Sinhalese etc…)

    Introducing Adam Gilchrist, the noted British linguist
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gilchrist_(linguist)

    Adam Gilchrist: Father of both Hindi and Urdu.

    He is principally known for his study of the Hindustani language, which led to it being adopted as the lingua franca of northern India (including present-day Pakistan) by British colonists and indigenous people. He compiled and authored An English-Hindustani Dictionary, A Grammar of the Hindoostanee Language, The Oriental Linguist, and many more. His lexicon of Hindustani was published in Arabic script, Nāgarī script, and in Roman transliteration.

    ..snip….
    Under Gilchrist’s leadership, Fort William also became a centre for Urdu prose. The language they taught was meant for young British people to acquire a general practical knowledge for administrative purposes, and not for native speakers of the language. He gathered around him writers from all over India who were able to produce a simple Urdu style that was “intelligible to British officers and merchants who had no use for poetry”.[4] One of Gilchrist’s pupils was the missionary Henry Martyn, an Anglican priest and chaplain for the East India Company, who revised the Hindustani version of the New Testament and later translated it, together with the Book of Psalms and Book of Common Prayer, into Urdu and Persian. By the early nineteenth century, the Persian language was gradually replaced by Urdu as the vernacular to serve as the administrative language in a growing colonial bureaucracy.[13]

    In 1803, Gilchrist inducted other writers into the college, who helped make rapid strides in Hindi language and literature. Subsequently, a Hindi translation of the Bible appeared in 1818 and Udant Martand, the first Hindi newspaper, was published in 1826 in Calcutta.

    Scholars debate Gilchrist’s role in the distillation of Hindustani into the modern languages of Hindi and Urdu, but according to Gilchrist, the rise of the new prose tradition was also the “bifurcation of Khariboli into two forms – the Hindustani language with Khariboli as the root resulted in two languages (Hindi and Urdu), each with its own character and script.“[16] He not only discovered/invented the Hindustani language, but he was credited as a great patron of Urdu and indirectly the reinvigoration of Hindi. During his time at Fort William College, he encouraged the use of the purer form of Khariboli from which contemporary Hindi evolved. In the words of K.B. Jindal, author of A history of Hindi literature: “Hindi as we know it today is the product of the nineteenth century.[17]

    Another view was that of George Abraham Grierson, an Irish linguist and Civil servant, who said that the standard or pure Hindi which contemporary Indians use is “an artificial dialect the mother tongue of no native-born Indian, a newly invented speech, that wonderful hybrid known to Europeans as Hindi and invented by them.”

    BTW the word ‘Urdu’ comes from the Mongol/Mughal word for Tent ‘Ordo’.

  200. @Talha

    FYI, your question and point is like focusing only on the fact that the sun light can give skin cancer and deliberately ignore all the life giving qualities.

    Another example would be that a non Muslim only focusing on the jihad aspect of it.

    Get it yet?

    I would be fucking ecstatic if USA have camps that can train the poor and give them life changing vocational jobs.

    • Replies: @Talha
  201. Yee says:

    Marcus,

    “Something is happening for sure, and not just with the Uighurs: ethnic Kazakhs are flooding into Kazakhstan from China. Despite my distate for Islam, I’d say the PRC government is overreacting. ”

    That’s just collateral damage.

    Xinjiang wants to stop the Uyghurs going Jihad aboard to places like Syria or Thailand etc., so they withhold their passports. However, they can’t just keep Uyghurs’ passports, that’s discrimination, so ALL Xinjiang residents must hand in their passports. Since the Kazaks is the only other ethnic group in Xinjiang have a need to travel aboard, the policy affect them too.

    Kazakhstan has a policy to attract ethic Kazaks back to the country to regain population majority, so they allow dual citizenship and offer many other benefits for new immigrants. That’s why Chinese Kazaks go there. however they don’t give up their Chinese citizenship, they want to travel back and forth to have it both ways. That’s what caused all the troubles.

    There isn’t something sinister going on, just inconvenient to tell the reason frankly.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  202. Alden says:
    @Joe Wong

    What happened in 1760? All I can think of is the end of the 7 years war.

  203. Talha says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    if USA have camps that can train the poor and give them life changing vocational jobs.

    Great. Now what if they didn’t want to be there? What if they decided that pan-handling was their calling? Would you let them leave these camps? If not, what do you propose to detain them?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  204. @Talha

    If pan handling leads to them becoming a domestic terrorist? Be use by another country to distablize USA? Force them to stay n learn a trade :p

    And I do take your silence to mean it is OK to focus only on Muslim terrorists when it comes to Muslims. 😎

    • Replies: @Talha
  205. Talha says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    If pan handling leads to them becoming a domestic terrorist?

    Well yeah – IF.

    And I do take your silence to mean it is OK to focus only on Muslim terrorists when it comes to Muslims.

    Not sure what this means.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Astuteobservor II
  206. Really the disappointing thing is that Trump has done basically nothing to stop the US policy of using Islamic extremists to foment global chaos. The US makes Erdogan’s Turkey look sane by comparison. Of course US client states like mine, and the global “liberal media”, support the policy. We see the same with the Chechens, and the “Rohingya” Bangladeshi in Burma, and the Albanian “Kossovars” in Serbia previously. It is as if the US State Dept/CIA, CNN and the global media, are all tools of the House of Saud.

    • Replies: @denk
  207. Lin says:
    @Talha

    He means only a minority/small% of muslims are supporters/participants of ‘terrorism’ or terrorism.
    Yes in a global sense but you can always find muslims who want to kill kafirs.It’s a rhetorical issue.
    Let me repeat what I once posted:
    What’s islam:
    –For muslims inside a muslim majority country, it’s a religion or at least national heritage.
    –Geopolitically, (sunni) Islam is the ONLY major civilizational pillar of arabs and it’s a vehicle of arab racial/tribal/nationalistic power. Prophet Mohamed was certainly an outstanding man who catapulted arab tribes scattered throughout the middle east and the eastern roman empire into a major civilization.
    –To muslims in kafir countries, it’s a being and identity issue. Wearing burqua is like waving a defiance placard:”I’m not going to be assimulated” . A good example is Ilhan Omar who apparently tries to reform islam through polyandry. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ilhan-omar-marry-brother/
    I suspect a better way for her to reform islam is wearing a bikini.

    • Replies: @Talha
  208. Talha says:
    @Lin

    Geopolitically, (sunni) Islam is the ONLY major civilizational pillar of arabs and it’s a vehicle of arab racial/tribal/nationalistic power.

    Maybe that’s how some Arabs feel about it, but it doesn’t negate the factual history that Sunni Islam was the backbone of legitimacy of the Ottoman Turks over the Arabs and others for centuries. It was really only when the Arabs were infected with ethno-nationalism and the false promises of Western powers that this changed. The exception to this were the Libyans – they stayed true to the Ottomans and did not revolt to my knowledge.

    To muslims in kafir countries, it’s a being and identity issue.

    Yes, unfortunately many Muslims see Islam as a “brown identity” marker.

    Wearing a burka is the person following their conviction on which ruling (covering the face or not) is correct.

    I’m not going to be assimulated

    Correct, Muslims shouldn’t assimilate – they should integrate though.

    reform islam

    Why would Muslims want to reform Islam? Furthermore, why would we want to reform it along lines so we could facilitate random men gawking at the legs and cleavage of our wives?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Lin
    , @RadicalCenter
  209. Lin says:
    @Talha

    Maybe that’s how some Arabs feel about it, but it doesn’t negate the factual history that Sunni Islam was the backbone of legitimacy of the Ottoman Turks over the Arabs and others for centuries. It was really only when the Arabs were infected with ethno-nationalism and the false promises of Western powers that this changed…
    ………………
    That exactly what I would elaborate further: That vehicle of civilizational power was once hijacked by the turks and the Saudi salafis arabs, supposed to be very ‘religious’,during WW1 allied with the limey and French kafirs to fight against the muslim ottomans. Religious treason of the worst kind I would say but seems alright with the arabs; why? Exactly because (sunni)Islam is arab religion/power.Fuck the turks, who cared if they were muslim. The reality is in modern day Saudi arabia, ‘Islam‘ is even narrowed down to power and wealth of the House of Saud.
    ………..
    The arabs had experimented with euro-style ‘nationalism’,’socialism’.. and they all failed.So they fell back on an old formula: Islam; thus the rise of Islamic radicalism.(Mind you islam had been VERY successful until the euro renaissance)

  210. Lin says:
    @Talha

    My suggested ‘reform’ regarding Ilhan Omar is a metaphor.
    Polyandry is definitely a lot more offending to hard core muslims than bikini.
    With her polyandry attempt(common law relationship with 3 kids and then mail order bridegroom), just tell me how Islamic Ilhan Omar is? As I said before, islam in the form of her hijab is just a tag.

    • Replies: @Talha
  211. Talha says:
    @Lin

    just tell me how Islamic Ilhan Omar is?

    Most Muslim politicians on the stage in the West aren’t very good representations of Islamic values:

    Most of them adhere to boiler-plate Left-liberal positions on almost everything.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Malla
  212. denk says:
    @Malla

    Dont get mixed up,
    [[[the family]]] means this…
    https://journal-neo.org/2018/12/10/anglo-saxon-eyes-are-fixed-on-countering-china/

    India belongs to [[[the family]]]

    The rest of your post are bollocks.

  213. denk says:
    @Talha

    sobs set off its UIghurs militants to chop up hundreds of Hans in 2014, true to form,they spin it as ‘police brutality on peaceful Uighurs protestors’, Edorgan even called it ‘genocide’ , WTF !

    This year the theme is ‘Uighurs torture camps with 3M inmates’.

    The eagerly hoped for GLObal jihad war against China didnt materialise, sobs even bemoan ‘why no Muslim outrage’ ?

    LUckily the Muslims aint so stoopid , they know who’s the great satan, the greatest agent procateurs on earth

    OIC’s on site inspection verify China’s narrative, those are de-radicalisation camps , with vocational courses to help potential suicide bombers turn over
    a new leaf.

    OIC in fact focus its concern over Muslim oppression in India instead !
    https://countercurrents.org/vltchek080215.htm

    This of course didnt stop the great satan forming a all whitey team to launch a smear campaign against China in UN.
    [Er, one of the 22 is pseudo white jp, ;-)]

    Muslims say ‘none of your biz, we know you’r up to no good’

    Great satan‘s whitey posse say ‘NO we are taking up the cudgel for you all the same, this is too important to be left for Muslims to decide themselves

    The Nixon/KIssinger doctrine is alive and kicking.

    What a fucking farce, these shameless assholes. !

  214. denk says:
    @Malla

    I never denied Indian imperialism in Kashmir valley, Punjab and North East including Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh/South Tibet

    Told you so,
    India and USA are very brittle glass houses.

    Confucius had a very sage advice for glass house dwellers,……’Dont ever throw stones’

    At least you didnt resort to sophistry like Colin Wright.
    The – x – = + law, [sic]

    May be you wanna write a column for UNZ on India, its inconceivable that a country of India’s gravitas has not been featured here so far !

    P.S.
    The previous post should be addressed to this thread too.

    • Replies: @Malla
  215. denk says:
    @Malla

    Wow. Free Lunch.

    Tibet was a gift by gawd, pay back for its earlier aggression against China, call it poetic justice.
    —————————

    And you should laugh ?

    Why’s gawd so mean on the ‘NE Indians’ ?
    What did they do to deserve such a fate ?

    those seven Mongoloid states had nothing to do with India, they were gobbled up by the Brit Raj, then ‘gifted’ to the newly independent India.

    When India got its independence,
    The ‘seven sister’ thought it’s their chance to break free of the enforced union too, But Nehru thundered to them
    ‘over my dead body’ !

    What ensued was fifty years of genocidal wars, waged by divisions of heavily armed jawans, with artillery and air support , against a ragtag resistance of Naga freedom fighters.
    The invading army used scorched earth tactics and even mass rapes to break the resistance morale.
    The result was pitiful.

    The ‘seven sisters’ were eventually crushed .

    The brave Nagas were finally subdued by the merciless Indian juggernaut, with hundreds of thousands dead or maimed, held up like kept concubines until this day.
    YOu’d never read this in the MSM, cuz India belongs in the [[[family]]].
    aka the Teflon club,

    Yes, ‘n’ how many times can a man turn his head, Pretending he just doesn’t see ?
    -Bob Dylan

    India’s Tibet,
    the Tibet that no anglos or Indians wanna talk about…..

    https://www.countercurrents.org/hr-gatade171006.htm

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
  216. denk says:
    @Talha

    OK – and there hasn’t been another plane flown into a skyscraper in the US, so I suppose the US government is doing the right thing.

    YOu dare to compare China’s legitimate de-radicalisation program to prevent real terrorism…

    to the universally known fraudulent wot as pretext to launch resource wars on the world,

    What a devilish holy man. !

    • Replies: @Talha
  217. Talha says:
    @denk

    YOu dare to compare China’s legitimate de-radicalisation program

    I never said it was the same. That was your inference from my words.

    I understand China has valid concerns; the question indeed hinges on whether the program is a legitimate way/method to tackle terrorism. You say it is. I personally think the jury is out on the matter.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Marcus
  218. Marcus says:
    @Yee

    Sounds reasonable (though I thought Slavs had mostly left Kazakhstan already), thanks!

  219. denk says:
    @Simon in London

    HOng KOng mayhem,
    courtesy of fukus.

    the disappointing thing is that Trump

    Nuthin disappointing or surprising , Trump is tptb’s man, all prez are tptb’s men, they’r the front managers.

    New boss, same as old boss.
    The agenda never change.

  220. denk says:
    @Talha

    whats US ends ?
    Full spectrum dominance

    its means ?
    fraudulent wot

    whats China’s ends ?
    preemption of terrorism.

    whats China’s means ?
    harmless re education program.

    YOu’r putting an equivalence bet them.
    nuthin ambiguous about that

    • Replies: @Talha
  221. Talha says:
    @denk

    harmless re education program.

    Yes, I agree – that is indeed what the Chinese government keeps claiming.

    YOu’r putting an equivalence bet them.

    Nope – never did, but you can keep attempting to say that I did. I have never supported the fraudulent “War on Terror”.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Ber
  222. Marcus says:
    @Talha

    Do you think it may have been an instance of ethnic / regional aspirations catalyzing religious ones? I have read that the Nationalist government of China had excellent relations with the Hui (some of the most formidable Nationalist generals, like Ma Pufang were Hui), but was in constant conflict with Turkic Muslims.

    • Replies: @Talha
  223. @Talha

    I am 100% sure you know what it means. You are not stupid judging by the comments you make here :p

    it doesn’t feel good when your tactic is used against you right? Since you are suppose to be a serious commentator here with that handle, be one.

    It is OK, I am letting you off the hook. Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
  224. Talha says:
    @Marcus

    Do you think it may have been an instance of ethnic / regional aspirations catalyzing religious ones?

    Absolutely – we saw something similar happen in Kosovo. The Xingjian region has historically been contested between being independently ruled by local Turkic people and becoming vassals of the Chinese emperors – this tug of war is not new at all.

    excellent relations with the Hui

    The Hui themselves were often employed by Imperial China to put down the revolts by other Muslims in that region.

    Peace.

  225. Ber says:
    @Talha

    Latest News: Ambassadors from 50 countries voice support to China’s position on issues related to Xinjiang.

    http://en.people.cn/n3/2019/0727/c90000-9600948.html

    • Replies: @Talha
  226. Talha says:
    @Ber

    See my earlier comment an the stance of the OIC; whatever the truth is with regard to what is happening in Xingjian, the conversation now is purely theoretical as far as I’m concerned – China has won the political argument on the world stage. No one is going to stop her from whatever she wants to do at this point. Even a country like the US really doesn’t have much of a hand to play at this point.

    Peace.

  227. Talha says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    I am 100% sure you know what it means.

    Nope – still don’t know what you mean.

    You are not stupid

    Apparently you are giving me too much credit.

    I am letting you off the hook.

    Awesome, appreciate it.

    Peace.

  228. @KA

    In the name of the party, the Chinese have starved and murdered themselves and others. Meanwhile Christianity has built civilization as we know it.

    • Replies: @Lin
  229. Lin says:
    @Johnny K. Arate

    “In the name of the party, the Chinese have starved and murdered themselves and others. Meanwhile Christianity has built civilization as we know it…”
    ………….
    I can’t help but laugh my butt off. I often don’t react to stupidity but yours is very entertaining.
    Did you take history in hi-school? Ever heard of the 30 years war, 7 years war, Irish potato famine which the british even disallowed Ottoman help to the irish, WW1 which was largely fought in Europe(france popn was 40 million and suffered 1.4 million military death,not counting civilians’)?

  230. Malla says:
    @denk

    they were gobbled up by the Brit Raj, then ‘gifted’ to the newly independent India.

    Wrong, even if they were gobbled by the British Raj, they were more or less left alone. It was India later which reconquered their lands later and this time India did not leave them alone.

  231. Malla says:
    @APilgrim

    It seems reasonable to assume that China will ALSO expel the Turkish Muhammadans.

    Suits me; it is their country.

    Xinjiang region is not traditional Han country. It is not Turkish Muhammadans in Jiangsu or Shandong we are talking about.

    • Replies: @APilgrim
  232. Malla says:
    @denk

    India and USA are very brittle glass houses.

    And China is a stone wall?

    • Replies: @Lin
  233. Malla says:
    @Talha

    Freakin disgusting pic.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  234. Lin says:
    @Malla

    And China is a stone wall?”
    China has a wall pasted with Yuan bills.
    Tibetans in china definitely have a much higher standard of living than the exiles and descendents in Hindustan. Actually many years ago I read some of the exiles had returned to china.
    Looks like the returnees are given quite a bit of freebies. I wouldn’t be surprised these include free or heavily subsidized housing
    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1137224.shtml
    As I said before, china produced over 1/2 of the world’s cement

    • Replies: @Malla
  235. Malla says:
    @Lin

    Tibetans in china definitely have a much higher standard of living than the exiles and descendents in Hindustan.

    Well during the early period of the Communist regime, India was a better place to be. Democratic and no Great Leap forward, no cultural revolution etc… But now Zhōngguó is much more free than before and the standard of living has increased 5 times that of Bharat so I am not surprised.

  236. Lin says:

    “Well during the early period of the Communist regime, India was a better place to be. Democratic and no Great Leap forward, no cultural revolution etc… But now Zhōngguó is much more free than before and the standard of living has increased 5 times that of Bharat so I am not surprised.”
    …………
    The history:
    –The Chinese govt decided to get rid of the theorcrazy in 1959 and the Great Leap Forward(making backyard furnances,say) which started in 1958 had hardy any impact on Tibet; the environment was quite different. Even the cultural revolution was mild in Tibet
    ……………
    While I understand the bharat govt tries to keep dalai and his boys as leverage on china; over all the indians in reality only serve as pawn in the US game plan to do with dalai. Dalai himself, from a number of sources, realizes his role as an anti-china pawn. That exile community seems to be just one of the many ethnic groups/castes there. Obviously the dalai boys also black out most of the news(saved the most negative ones)from china. The longer they stay there, the more distant they’re from the real world. I suspect another gen from now, they Chinese gov might stop according them the incentives. They might visit Tibet but as Indians. That’s all Folks.
    ……………..
    But the way the ‘Miss Tibet’ pageant 2019 was cancelled. I think for PR exposure consideration, they had relocated it from india to N.Y. A bad mistake. Seems those potential contestants can’t afford the econ class airfare and couldn’t find sponsors.
    http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=41446

  237. APilgrim says:
    @Malla

    China & Burma (Myanamar) are wisely expelling Muhammadans.

    Good for them.

    • Replies: @Malla
  238. @Talha

    Talha, I agree wholeheartedly with your last, rhetorical question. Are we really lacking trashy senseless exposure of women’s bodies to men who are not married to them, do not love them, do not even know them in most cases, and mainly have no wholesome long-term intention in mind?

    That is where most Muslims get it more right than current Jewish-controlled “Western” perverts and exhibitionists, even if you guys go too far to the other extreme with women’s dress and treatment sometimes by my lights.

    There are fundamental things I’d like to see changed about Islam, and frankly, I don’t want Islam in my country until and unless they are changed. But please don’t cave in to the “freedom” of girls and women exposing themselves to strangers like pieces of meat, like animals with no soul, no self-respect, no appreciation for God’s gift of their life, their physical beauty, and their unique ability to bear and nurture new life, and no ability to control themselves. No need to “reform” your religion so that your women can walk around like barely-dressed sluts like so many of ours.

    Women are worth more than that.

    • Replies: @APilgrim
    , @Lin
  239. APilgrim says:
    @RadicalCenter

    FGM is not an expression of respect for women.

    Unable to drive a car.

    Arranged Child Marriage.

    Muhammadans are scum.

    Muhammad was a pedophile.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  240. Lin says:
    @RadicalCenter

    About ‘reforming’ islam, there has been no successful attempt or the average muslims don’t think its necessary .
    …………
    Lets take a look at all the changes or ‘reforms’ of religions,tagged or not:

    Type I: The Protestant Reformation

    Type II: Christianity as reformed judaism, Buddhism as reformed Hinduism, Bahai as reformed islam…

    Type III: Reformed sect of Judaism(started by Moses Mendelsohn, grandfather of the composer))

    Type IV: The glacial change of the RC church to the present.

    ……………….

    Type I is not exactly a reform.It’s a reaction against a centralized feudal theocracy.Protestants all tell you it’s was restoration to the scriptural origin of the faith.

    Type II is risky(particularly if engineered from outside). Involved formation of new relgions. However if one view it in the scope of 1000s of years, it’s the way to go. Religions keep coming and going.

    Type III was practically secularization. Not the original intent of moses mendelsohn who was an orthodox jew.

    Type IV was a slow reformation without the tag

    (Lo and Behold, the Holy Prophet is infallible so ‘secularisation’ like banning polygamy is blasphemous…)
    The world of (arab sunni) islam in many ways is similar to medieval Europe with no separation of state and relgion, powerful clergy and religious wars but it’s senseless to initiate ‘reform’ if one wants to avoid destruction like the 30 yrs war.

    A slower and less volatile sensible way is Type IV route; but the process could be disrupted should other energy sources emerge and displace petroleum, and also throw in demography/migration problems, the arab world could plunge into a prolonged era of chaos; but then a ‘prophet/messiah’ might emerge and form a ‘new’ religion.

    Religions fell and rised with the strength(economical,intellectual..)of the believers. I personally believe the Al-Mighty Allah is fair(Arab Christian also use the term Allah)and impartial. The recent renaissance of Zionism/Judaism has a lot to do with the strength of the world jewry. Same with the golden age of islam. Let Allah decide the fate. Last but most important issue: how arabised will be the new ‘reformed Islam’ ?

    • Replies: @Talha
  241. Talha says:
    @Lin

    to initiate ‘reform’ if one wants to avoid destruction like the 30 yrs war.

    Exactly right. One of the things people forget is that Wahhabism and Salafism, which have led to quite extreme strains and been at the heart of much of the current bloodshed in the Muslim world, are actually reformation attempts and relatively recent ones at that.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Lin
  242. Lin says:
    @Talha

    Please read carefully:
    “it’s senseless to initiate ‘reform’ if one wants to avoid destruction like the 30 yrs war. ”
    Wahhabism and Salafism are mostly purist or restorationist movement as reaction to western imperialism/ideology/religion, not ‘reform’, though there might be moderate elements among them.
    …………..
    Within the middle east context, Wahhabism is also Saudi attempt to monopolize Islamic doctrine. One of the geopolitical goals is to delegitimize Shiite Islam. When prophet Mohamet died, there was a bloody civil war between 2 camps of followers: 1)The group led by Ali his son-in-law who wanted to form a Mohamet dynasty 2)The bigger group led by Abu Bakr his father-in-law tribal chief who wanted to keep the Islamic banner his tribal property. Abu Bakr won and Ali’s movement became Shiite Islam.
    The rest is history.
    Islam and christianity are experiencing decline:
    –Protestant evangelical Christianity is under onslaught by the homos who are the knights of Sodom and Gomorrah risen from the fire and brimstone cinders. Vatican historically is a big closet.
    Pope Paul II was literally fucked to death by his page.
    https://opentabernacle.wordpress.com/2010/03/12/the-unfortunate-death-of-pope-paul-ii/
    –(Sunni) islam declines slowly as the social econ conditions of the majority of arabs degenerate and the ummah overall fail to compete with the big (kafir) boys.

    • Replies: @Talha
  243. Talha says:
    @Lin

    Wahhabism and Salafism are mostly purist or restorationist movement as reaction to western imperialism/ideology/religion

    OK, but in all honesty, Wahhabism predates this notion and has very little to do with Western imperialism. In fact, it had no problems with cooperating with Western powers.

    Salafism is different in that sense and was definitely a reaction.

    Wahhabism is also Saudi attempt to monopolize Islamic doctrine.

    Basically – yeah.

    bloody civil war between 2 camps of followers

    The details are incorrect. The bloody civil war was fought between the Caliph Ali (ra) and Emir Mu’awiyyah (ra) – the latter being the starting point of the Ummayyad dynasty. Abu Bakr (ra) was long dead by then and Ali (ra) served as one of the most important advisors to the first three caliphs.

    Shiah Islam as its own distinct movement really takes off after the death of Hussain (ra) at the hands of Umayyad forces.

    the ummah overall fail to compete with the big (kafir) boys.

    I was talking about this with my brother and how it is imperative for the Muslim world to reintegrate Persia back into brotherhood of Muslim nations and figure a way out of the sanctions for her. Persia is far more important geo-politically than the Gulf Arab states (always has been since around the 800s) due to both geography and human capital. An economic-military cooperative bloc of Turkey, Iran, Azerbaijan and Pakistan would basically be the reestablishment of “Persianate” sphere of influence.

    Without Persia, the Ummah is trying to compete in the finals while benching one of its star players. Expect other world powers who would be threatened by this, to keep Iran on the bench and from joining the team.

    Peace.

  244. Lin says:

    Thank U for the details. Seems I got different accounts related to Ali’s death.

  245. @APilgrim

    Agree with all except all Muslims being scum, which you must know is not true.

    I also cannot trust Muslims, however, because it does seem that coercion and violence are allowed and required against “infidels” by the koran.

    • Replies: @Lin
  246. Malla says:
    @denk

    If the Han can claim territory conquered by the Manchu and Mongol Empires of which they were a part, why can’t Indians claim territory conquered by the British Empire of which we were a part?

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  247. Malla says:
    @APilgrim

    Myanamar/Burma is a very different case. The Muslim Bengalis ethnically do not belong in Burma. They most probably came during the British Empire. They can all return to Bangladesh and live happily ever after. Xingjiang is different. In Myanmar, the ethnic Bengali Muslims are foreigners in the traditional Territory of the Burmans/Bamars while in Xingjiang it is the Han settling in traditionally Uighur territory which it seems was originally Pamiri territory.
    Ethnic Bengalis who just happen to be Muslims are foreigners in the traditional lands of ethnic Burmans who happen to be Theravada Buddhists. The clash is more ethnic/racial than religious.
    The Bangladeshis living in one of the most fertile lands on earth, have been breeding and overflowing into its neighbouring lands in Burma and India for decades as well into the Buddhist Chittagong Hill Tracts within Bangladesh itself. Only now has their birth rate gone down. This is not the case of the Central Asians who are not breeding and overflowing. Central Asians go to Russia because Russia has a far higher standard of living.

    • Replies: @APilgrim
  248. Lin says:
    @RadicalCenter

    Agree with all except all Muslims being scum, which you must know is not true.
    I also cannot trust Muslims, however, because it does seem that coercion and violence are allowed and required against “infidels” by the koran
    .”
    ……..
    IMO,there’s no need for such antagonism. Except for some isolated cases,doubt if they can convert by coercion nowadays.
    As I said before, (sunni)islam is basically pan-arab nationalism, all the taboos, do and don’ts are just old arab customs sanctified. Prophet Mohamed was no different from powerful political figures of his time and environment. The violence were definitely no worse than the Canaanite genocide and internal ethnic cleansing of the golden calf worshippers by Moses and his boys.
    (sunni)Islam(arab nationalism),orthodox Judaism(chosen race),Hinduism([email protected],[email protected] segregation) are basically the same:Vehicle of ethnic/racial interests.
    The recent drive by hindutwadis to replace ‘aryan invasion’ by ”out-of-india’ is an attempt to change the perception and promote unity.
    (A question:A certain % of brahmins are also dravidians. Could it be a power sharing scheme to placate the Dravidian elite when the aryan migrated to/invaded south india?)

    • Replies: @APilgrim
  249. APilgrim says:
    @Malla

    Whether the Muhammadan residents of a region were originally an Ethnic, Tribal invasion; or were locals converted to Islam at sword-point. China & Burma (Myanamar) do NOT want them, and are aggressively driving them away, with kinetic strategies.

    And it suits me, that when the music stops, there are no chairs left for the Muhammadans.

    Good for China. Good for Burma. Good for Serbia. Good for Hungary … etc.

  250. APilgrim says:
    @Lin

    Certainly,

    “they can convert by coercion nowadays”.

    Don’t be Daft! One modern Muhammadan coercive tool is Oil. Another is LNG.

    Strict societal control, with ENFORCED Prayer Times, coerces ALL within Caliphate Nations.

    Foreign Investment of vast Petro-Dollar Reserves is another tool of control.

    The USA has only recently broken free, of the Muhammadan Fossil-Fuel Spider-Web; with: Shale Oil, Directional Drilling, and MASSIVE Enhanced Fracking Technologies.

  251. @Colin Wright

    The idea that Greek culture was saved by Islam is ridiculous. The Arabs then the Turks – the Turks finally overthrowing the Roman Empire only 500 years ago – invaded and conquered the Ancient Greek world. The Arabs destroyed the great library at Alexandria. The Greeks then fought for their independence from the Turkish Ottomans 200 years ago. Greek antiquity existed on the lands the Muslims conquered, and survived in spite of the Muslims.

  252. Lin says:
    @Moi

    Why symbolism is so important in religion ?
    I’m a Christian and I see no need to display greek text of new testament or Hebrew text of old testament to demonstrate my religiosity. I don’t wear a cross because it’s more an ornament than anything else.
    While I do feel the Beijing might need more subtle way of secular education; definitely symbolism in islam is over done.
    Does Ilhan Omar’s hijab signify she is a good muslimah even though she borne 3 kids with her common law partner while tried to mail-order another bridegroom?

    • Replies: @Talha
  253. Talha says:
    @Lin

    Why symbolism is so important in religion ?

    This is not a valid criticism especially coming from Chinese. The Chinese bring their cultural symbols everywhere they settle – I was just in Chinatown in Los Angeles over the weekend and I can attest to how proudly citizens of Chinese background display their obvious Chinese imagery and language in full public view.

    If we can agree that the Uyghurs have been settled in that region for centuries, denying them the right to display Arabic script in that area is more along the lines of suppression of language or script by, say, the Turks of Kurdish or the Spanish of the Mayans.

    symbolism in islam is over done.

    Forget religion. Even if all Uyghurs went hyper-secular, why is it justified to suppress expressions of their language which had historically been Arabic-Persian script?

    Ilhan Omar’s hijab

    Ms. Omar is not really a good example for much regarding Islam. However, the hijab is not merely a symbol, it is a religious obligation just like the five daily prayers are. There has been no difference of opinion on this matter for centuries.

    Peace.

  254. Lin says:

    “This is not a valid criticism especially coming from Chinese. The Chinese bring their cultural symbols everywhere they settle – I was just in Chinatown in Los Angeles over the weekend and I can attest to how proudly citizens of Chinese background display their obvious Chinese imagery and language in full public view
    ……….
    That wasn’t what I said. I specifically referred to excessive symbolism in religion of which halal diet is a major component. I never said muslims should start eating pork but is it necessary to invoke Arabic scripts doing so? Actually, besides being a Christian(of alternative conviction),I’m also a 10% muslim, in the sense that I greatly admire prophet Mohamed as a hero for his people and I usually avoid alcohol and pork(though not completely abstain from). When people asked me why I very seldom drink; I said I want to stay sober and there’s absolutely no need to pull my thick koran concordance from my bookshelf to find Arabic text justifying.
    NOR I’m against putting up street signs in Uyghur/Arabic language.
    I’m proposing de-linking arab symbolism for the own good of the muslims world wide(unfortunately so far there’s little success). Particularly for muslims in western countries, such symbolism actually draw much hostility from the native locals. As I said, wearing burqa is like saying” fuck you, I ain’t going to assimulate”.
    …………..
    Talking about Chinese cultural symbolism, I’m definitely against linking any Chinese cultus to Chinese language or saying Chinese language ‘sacred’ because of that religion. Fortunately that seldom happened because Chinese are secular. Even the more religious Chinese buddhist are only vegetarian twice a day a month
    Last but not least, I’m definitely against promoting traditional Chinese medicine because its basis is empirical and non-scientific. Some Chinese claim it must be maintained because it’s ‘national heritage’. If it’s ‘national heritage’, let national dept of antiquity handle it and take it away from ‘clinics’.If it has reminant elements worthy of attention, let medical professionals handle them.

    • Replies: @Talha
  255. Talha says:
    @Lin

    That wasn’t what I said.

    Ok – sorry for misunderstanding.

    halal diet is a major component.

    Halal diet isn’t about symbolism – it’s about following the dictates of the religion.

    is it necessary to invoke Arabic scripts doing so

    No, but what other script would Uyghurs use? Chinese script? Why? Then they would simply be aping the Chinese. Their written form of language has been Arabic-Persian script for centuries – do they have an ancient native script other than that one?

    It’s like when Ataturk banned the use of Arabic-Persian script in favor of Latin script – he simply adopted some other people’s script for the Turks. Seems silly to me. I was talking to my Moroccan Lyft driver today about the efforts to revive Berber script in Morocco and Algeria and have it recognized as a native and official script alongside Arabic; now that makes sense to me.

    NOR I’m against putting up street signs in Uyghur/Arabic language.

    There you go.

    so far there’s little success

    I don’t know. I do feel the Salafi-Wahhabi strains (especially Wahhabi) do tend to have a kind of culturally predatory nature about them and try to make everyone look like cookie-cutter Arabs. But most non-Arab cultures have a very vibrant native Islamic culture that is very distinct from Arabs. But a lot of it comes down to opinion; some person feels that the universal adoption of the greeting “assalaamu alaikum” may be too much while another thinks it’s just fine. This is a good talk on it:

    wearing burqa

    Burqa or hijab? Frist time, you mentioned hijab. My own teachers stress that women should wear the hijab (since all schools agree on this), but they don’t push the burqa.

    I ain’t going to assimulate

    Yes, Muslims should never assimilate – they should integrate however.

    Thanks for explaining your positions on Chinese cultural symbols.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Lin
  256. Lin says:

    I said ” I specifically referred to excessive symbolism in religion of which halal diet is a major component
    Here I mean hahal diet is a major component of Islamic religion and symbolism is right up front in that religion.
    ….
    what other script would Uyghurs use? Chinese script?”
    Although the Uyghur written language is in Arabic alphabets, Uyghur script is NOT the same as koran passage. I don’t think the Chinese govt is against a restaurant owner posting the name of his/her eatery in Uyghur script(together with Chinese script,since there’re han muslims there as well) but koranic passage is another issue. The average muslims sure memorise the phonics of certain amount of koran passages but even the average modern arabs can’t write Arabic in koranic style.
    Another parallel is that a significant % of Japanese script is Chinese script but writing Japanese text is not writing Chinese.
    BTW, my thick koranic concordance was gifted by a Chinese Hui muslim trader I met during a solar eclipse observation trip to Xinjiang. He told me there is a new translation of koran to Chinese; he asked for my address and he air-mailed that thick book to me.
    Alhamdulillah

    • Replies: @Talha
  257. Lin says:
    @Talha

    Regarding islamicity, that depends; some examples:
    –Indonesian islam seems to be a mild form of wahabism
    –40% of Bulgarian muslims eat pork.
    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/bulgarias-muslims-not-deeply-religious-study-8817
    –personally, I have an arab head scarf but that circlet, said to be adjustable, can’t fit my head. Actually many muslims I know appreciate when I told them I’m a partial muslim.

  258. Lin says:
    @Talha

    Muslims should never assimilate – they should integrate however
    ….
    We live in a complicate world, both inside the ummah and kafir societies; just what does ‘integration” mean and how well it’ll work? Some examples:
    —The world jewry though small in number is very diverse. Both the Lubavitchers and Satmars are ultra-orthodox groups but they hate each others with passion. The Satmars consider the modern state of Israel an abomination.
    —Shiites insider Saudi arabia are openly labelled as heretics.
    ………..
    For muslims insider western countries, say USA, ‘integration’ means they can keep the halal diet at home, keep the hijab, go to mosques, the homos among them can be openly gay under protection of the law, no polygamy… But most important of all, they live within the realm of a superpower that preys on the oil wealth of the homeland of prophet Mohamed and bombs the fuck of the descedants of the tribal pals of Prophet Mohamed. How do the US muslims square that inner conflict? Even though I said Ilhan Omar isn’t a good muslimah and she is a good example of being ‘integrated’ that she is a member of the US congress, she promptly reminds us the turmoil the US muslims face. IMO, ‘integration’ for the US muslims is like a form of mental legal sugar-coated opioid to replace outright refusal to assimulation.
    To me the only way out is to reduce the racial/tribal/ethnic components of all religions and Islam, in the case of discussion here, is supposed to be gift from a non-racialist/non-tribal god. And the Koran is such a wonderful book that its the ultimate message from Allah regardless of the language of translation.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  259. Seraphim says:
    @Lin

    The problems arise when trying to force the “Koran is the ultimate message of Allah” meme upon those who know otherwise and characterize this knowledge as ‘Islamophobia’ that must be punished.

    • Replies: @Lin
  260. Lin says:
    @Seraphim

    The problems arise when trying to force the “Koran is the ultimate message of Allah” meme upon those who know otherwise and characterize this knowledge as ‘Islamophobia’ that must be punished.”
    ……………
    That’s a problem but not the biggest problem; just like Christian fundamentalists claim creationism explains the origin of the universe and human species. They can believe all they want.
    …….
    As I said before, islam manifests in a number of forms:
    1)As a system of moral code; I appreciate that many muslim countries have the sharia banking law that a small %(1 or 2%)of person’s annual income must be donated to charities.
    2)As a vehicle of pan-arab tribal/racial/ethnic interest. Still fine with me if they don’t bother me.
    3)A combo of the above + conversionism + jehadism could be quite offensive. You don’t need to be anti-arab/racist to feel offended. They basically tell us arab customs are holy because of islam
    …..
    –The holy Koran told us women should don modest clothing to protect themselves from sex predators. I agree but does it need to come in the form of top to bottom burqa? Would muslimahs in kafir countries suddenly be victimised by a big jump in sex offense against them if they don a different style of modest costume?
    –Pork is haram during the time of prophet Mohamed because porcine species in those days and locales were infested with lots of parasites. But its no longer true due to modern farming. STill fine with me if they bring their lunch packs but insist the cafeteria of their kids’ school with majority kufir pupils to serve halal meals is a different story.
    –Inbreeding and marrying your daughter-in-law. Its quite alright because Prophet Mohamed married his first cousin and the wife of his dead adopted son. I even read that because of that betrothal, arabs from that on had the view that relation with one’s adopted son should be different from biological sons.

  261. Talha says:
    @Lin

    Here I mean

    OK – got it.

    but koranic passage is another issue

    Why? Why is it a problem if a Uyghur deli owner writes a verse from the Quran that mentions something like:
    “So eat of the lawful (halal) and good food which Allah hath provided for you, and thank the bounty of your Lord if it is Him you serve.” (16:114)

    …in Arabic on his own shop window?

    but even the average modern arabs can’t write Arabic in koranic style.

    I don’t know what this means. Modern Standard Arabic is basically derivative of traditional/classical Arabic (also called fus’Ha) – I know because I’ve been studying it for years now:
    “Modern Standard Arabic is very similar to classical (or Quranic) Arabic. In fact, many Arabs use them interchangeably. Overall, the two types of Arabic are very similar.”
    https://www.arabacademy.com/quranic-arabic-vs-modern-standard-arabic/

    Indonesian islam seems to be a mild form of wahabism

    Though the original Indonesian adoption of Islam was at the hands of Sufi-scholars (look up the “Wali Songo”, I will agree that Wahhabi influence has definitely gotten into Indonesia. No doubts about this, oil money has a far reach.

    40% of Bulgarian muslims eat pork

    Not surprising…all of the Russian Jews at my work eat pork.

    How do the US muslims square that inner conflict?

    Very good question. I recently had a similar talk with my brother about this. He is of the view that if the US attacks Iran, that is his final straw and he will make plans to leave, being unable to justify paying taxes to such a government. My view is mostly along the lines of my teachers, we’ve established a spiritual beachhead in the US. We will continue to call people to Islam and over time, maybe 20, 50, 200 years down the line the geo-political problem will solve itself. If I was here in the US simply enjoying myself and wasting time, I would definitely be worried about how to justify my presence.

    And the Koran is such a wonderful book that its the ultimate message from Allah regardless of the language of translation.

    Agreed. But when you attempt to decouple it from Arabic via translation, you no longer have the original, you have what the translator thought what the original meant.

    Inbreeding

    Cousin marriage was not a problem in early Christianity, it became so later due to the pronouncements of the Church. Which is why the Copts are fine with it:
    “Thus, the Coptic Orthodox Church, by allowing cousins to marry, has not violated any scriptural laws or rules.”
    https://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1852&catid=253

    insist the cafeteria of their kids’ school with majority kufir pupils to serve halal meals is a different story.

    I agree here, there is no need to push this when the majority of the population is not Muslim. If a particular school has like 70% Muslim pupils, then I can see a point for that particular case.

    marrying your daughter-in-law

    This is prohibited. Your adopted son is not your biological son, therefore the woman he marries is not your daughter-in-law any more than some other random person’s wife is. Any woman that one’s actual son has sexual relations with is prohibited for his father forever.

    Alhamdulillah

    Indeed – in every moment and in every state we find ourselves in.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Lin
  262. Lin says:

    but even the average modern arabs can’t write Arabic in koranic style.
    I don’t know what this means. Modern Standard Arabic is basically derivative of traditional/classical Arabic (also called fus’Ha) – I know because I’ve been studying it for years now: ”
    ……….
    I heard the difference from a Kurdish friend(who later became an English professor in Canada ) from Iraq. He told me he took pride that he was better trained in Arabic than most of his arab friends. He told me the following existing ‘versions’ of Arabic:
    1)Arabic for daily use
    2)Grammatic arabics
    3)Koranic Arabic–the version he was trained from the start
    ………
    “Your adopted son is not your biological son, therefore the woman he marries is not your daughter-in-law any more”
    I hold to a different standard. My paternal grandmom adopted 2 girls. I respect them just like any elders. I’m sure I’m not an isolated case.
    ……….

    And the Koran is such a wonderful book that its the ultimate message from Allah regardless of the language of translation.

    Agreed. But when you attempt to decouple it from Arabic via translation, you no longer have the original, you have what the translator thought what the original meant.
    .
    I want to remind you translation of koran is a major undertaking and translators of korans are devout muslims and doubtful they want to distort the original

    • Replies: @Talha
  263. Lin says:
    @Talha

    The risk of first cousin marriage has little to do church doctrine. I refer to risk of genetic/biological nature.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4442010.stm

    • Replies: @Talha
  264. Talha says:
    @Lin

    If you are saying there are problems that develop if too many people marry their cousins, then I fully agree with you. There are also problems if a person eats too much red meat.

    Everything should be done in moderation and I don’t think it is healthy for any society to have a cousin marriage rate higher than 10-15%.

    Cousin marriages do not automatically result in bad or stupid offspring. Two of my cousins married and their kids are brilliant (MashaAllah); in fact, one of them just scored in the 99th percentile on the LSAT and can basically choose to go to any law school his parents and he can afford.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Lin
  265. Talha says:
    @Lin

    He told me he took pride that he was better trained in Arabic than most of his arab friends.

    Agreed and a guy from Ghana who studies English at a university level will know the language better than most normal English speakers.

    Arabic for daily use

    Yes, this is colloquial Arabic dialect and this actually can vary quite a bit from Modern Standard Arabic (MSA) and classical; this is for certain. If an Arabic speaker hasn’t had much exposure to MSA, perhaps they aren’t too well read, then I can see them easily being outclassed by a Kurd who has.

    I respect them just like any elders.

    This doesn’t have to do with lack of respect, it has to do with legalities that are tied specifically to biological kinship; like ability to marry, inheritance, liabilities of financial maintenance, etc.

    doubtful they want to distort the original

    I don’t doubt their sincerity, I do doubt their accuracy. Which is why there are multiple translations that differ with each other, reflecting each translator’s own inclination. Also, actually having studied Arabic, I can tell you there are simply certain phrases or words that cannot be done justice in another language.

    Peace.

  266. Lin says:
    @Talha

    Pork seems to be the ‘staple’ meat of many east Europeans and east Asians. Problem is whether/why pork is bad?
    As I said,I’m a 10% muslim that(I want to stay sober) so I don’t consume alcohol and I also don’t eat pork, Why?
    I read that according to a certain Sura, jews and Christians are depicted as ‘apes’ and ‘pigs’ . I mostly agree. Apes and pigs according to scientists are actually very close in genetics to human and most of the xeno-transplant organs to humans are actually taken from apes and pigs. So eating pork is like cannibalism. As I said Prophet Mohamed is the greatest ever arab national hero. I personally interpret that Sura like this:”Behold ! Jews and Christians, welcome to Humanity !!”

    https://www.science.org.au/curious/people-medicine/similarities-between-humans-and-pigs.
    There’s a scientific view that humans are pig and ape hybrid
    https://phys.org/news/2013-07-chimp-pig-hybrid-humans.html

    Damned be those Bulgarian muslims and US jews who eat pork.

    • Replies: @Talha
  267. Lin says:
    @Talha

    “Cousin marriages do not automatically result in bad or stupid offspring. Two of my cousins married and their kids are brilliant (MashaAllah)”
    Here I’m talking about statistics. I congrat that the kids of your 1st cousin couple belong to the far right end of the distribution curve.
    ……………..
    Regarding the koranic Arabic issue: I want to point out:
    –Colloquial Arabic originated from classical Arabic does NOT imply the average arab muslims can write Arabic koranic style though they certainly memorise the phonics of certain amount of koranic verses.
    –The Uyghur turkic language though written in arab alphabets is not an Islamic/Arabic language. Just like the modern Turkish language is written in latin alphabets but it’s NOT a latin language. The average person in muslim Turkey don’t speak Arabic(colloquial, grammatic, koranic…)

    –Regarding marrying the wife of a dead adopted son; would the arabs have a different opinion if the example wasn’t set by the Holy Prophet? The same with many muslims dyeing their facial hair orange. Does legality explains all? My aunt(as mentioned) once told me not to date her daughter precisely because of this issue.

    –You said you doubt the expertise of the koran translators. Alright with me if you want to mystify the issue and say only a selected group(ethnic or otherwise) understand that holy language.
    ………
    Overall, you confirm my view that many Arabic customs were sanctified through Islam. My congrat if you’re an arab and you hold true to your ethnic aspiration.

  268. @Colin Wright

    Can you factually refute anything that was written. Your comment only shwos your bias. The article started out by noting the vast majority of Uyghurs are law abiding citizens in China – so he specifically was not call them all “bad” as you seem to infer.

  269. Talha says:
    @Lin

    I read that according to a certain Sura, jews and Christians are depicted as ‘apes’ and ‘pigs’ .

    This is not correct. The statement in the Qur’an is not a general one. It is regarding a specific group of Jews that broke the Sabbath through trickery and were punished this way.

    So eating pork is like cannibalism.

    Pork gets a lot of attention, but it really shouldn’t honestly once someone understands the general principle. The only animals humans are allowed to eat are grazing animals or those from the ocean. Omnivores are off the list, whether it is pigs, monkeys, bears or whatever – you can’t eat them because that’s not their purpose. We have domesticated pigs, but if released into the wild, feral pigs go back to their natural state and will gore and eat a human:
    “In another scenario, the swine — weighing about 700 pounds each — may have knocked Garner down, overwhelming him before killing him, authorities said…Pigs are omnivorous, and have previously been known to feast on people. The 56-year-old wife of a pig farmer in Romania was knocked unconscious and eaten in the animals’ sty, UPI reported in 2004. Her ears, half her face and fingers had been ripped off, a doctor said.”
    https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/hungry-hogs-eat-oregon-farmer-article-1.1172448

    The only reason pigs get attention is because they are the only omnivore we consume regularly, if it was bears instead, then they would have been highlighted.

    Thanks for the article about genetic similarities.

    Damned be those Bulgarian muslims and US jews who eat pork.

    My teachers have taught me it is best not to curse people, but pray for their guidance and rectification.

    does NOT imply the average arab muslims can write Arabic koranic style

    OK – that is likely the case with Arbas that don’t have a good level of education, I’ll agree with this.

    is not an Islamic/Arabic language.

    Sure, but that’s their script, so if they want to say “halal”, that’s what they are going to use.

    would the arabs have a different opinion if the example wasn’t set by the Holy Prophet?

    Totally, he broke with Arab custom and was criticized by his enemies for that. But that is case, Islam removed Arab custom if it was not in conformity with Divine legislation. It set a precedent for all time; biological children and adopted children are not the same legally.

    say only a selected group(ethnic or otherwise) understand that holy language.

    I never said translations aren’t helpful, only that they cannot provide an accurate substitute.

    many Arabic customs were sanctified through Islam.

    Some were and some were rejected (as we saw above). For instance, Arabs had no problems marrying unlimited wives, but Islam limited it to 4. They also used to bury their daughters alive if they didn’t want to raise them, but that was prohibited too.

    My congrat if you’re an arab and you hold true to your ethnic aspiration.

    I’m not and Arab and I really don’t see Islam as some sort of vehicle for Arab hegemony. I mean, the last caliphate for hundreds of years was a bunch of Turks who ruled over vast numbers of Arabs. Their entire legitimacy to do so was derived from Islam. It was only when people started tending toward Arab and Turk and Kurd, etc. ethno-nationalism when things started to fall apart.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Lin
  270. @Talha

    The Han first controlledmthe area in BC times.. Check the facts. So they are both migrants. The Han got there first and at various times beat the Uighurs to control the territory as most countries have formed. I aslo find it interesting younwant “credible” sources to the radicalization in Xinjiang – but you readily accept anti China biased western sources. But to answer your question dont even look at China. Look at some of the othern neighboring”stans” and see what they have done to keep out radicalization. Some of them even ban lomg beards. You thought the Chinese dreamed that up themselves?? Nope! In fact go look up what the Shanghai Cooperation Organization started by China and Russia. All the stans (except Afghan) share intelligence info on insurgents. China started it.. Do you you know why? Again go look it up. This article – in spite of what the anti-China crowd say is the reason. The neighbors participate because they want stability too.

    • Replies: @Talha
  271. Talha says:
    @Showmethereal

    The Han got there first and at various times beat the Uighurs to control the territory as most countries have formed.

    Well yeah, that’s basically my point – this is a very old feud and Uighurs are not some new upstart invaders. And definitely before they became Muslim.

    but you readily accept anti China biased western sources.

    I don’t actually, that’s the problem – I keep looking for a source I can trust on the matter that has solid and reliable info from the area and I can’t seem to find a good one.

    and see what they have done to keep out radicalization.

    Yup – communist LARPers basically have a playbook from Stalin or something that they follow.

    You thought the Chinese dreamed that up themselves?

    Of course not, Communists have been doing all sorts of stuff to Muslims way before Xinjiang became an issue.

    The neighbors participate because they want stability too.

    Everyone wants stability on their own terms – not surprising. Stalin didn’t like the instability in Chechnya so he shipped all of them off to Siberia – became very stable. Turks did that with Armenians – very stable, didn’t hear a peep from Armenians in that area.

    Look, I’m quite aware what an ethno-nationalist Communist government can (and is willing to) do and whatever China is reported to be or (accused of) doing is only a fraction of what she is capable of. I am quite aware of how many Han were purged by their own government to achieve stability, a few million Uighurs here or there is chump change. I would just like to have a reliable source on the matter and thus far haven’t found one. This article came close, but I presented my specific criticisms of it.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  272. @Malla

    Qucik explanation. Manchus and Mongols became Chinese kingdoms. For one thing Han are very diverse. Hakka and Hokkien people are vastly different. Han people chose to call themselves that. They were as varied as all the people of Europe. Imagine if Slavs and Saxons decided to call themselves one group. China was never made up of one ethnic group. Han were never the only Chinese. The Mongols believed they had the mandate of heaven to ruke China. So did the Manchu/Jurchen. The Mongols made Beijing the capital of China. Not the Han. The Brits in the Raj is not in any way comparable except that we are talking about empires. The Brits were complete aliens and remained so. Its not like neighbors jockeying with each other over centuries.

    • Replies: @Malla
  273. @Moi

    Oh you are sourcing from the Falun Gong news about China? Tsk tsk. That said the key is “Arab” symbols. Other Central Asian – Muslim majority population – nations started doing this before China. The Arab influencing jihadists are why. Just as a Baptist and a Presbyterian are different – there are different types of Muslim practice. Central Asians are mainly Muslim – but not Arab. Where is most jihad sponsored from…???

  274. @Talha

    What on earth does Stalin have to do with it???? The stan neighbors are now independent countries and are not Stalinists. What on earth are you saying. Lastly – I have not seen you come up with one credible way to deal with jihadists. What China is doing – heavy handed or not – is the LEAST torturous way to handle it. Most other countries would send in the air force and then bull doze the homes. In fact the countries complaining do just that IN FOREIGN LANDS. Meanwhile the Muslim countries go and inspect the camps and have their ambassadors wrote the UN and tell the west to stopmslandering China. The letters to the UN committee are on record. Go look.

    • Replies: @Talha
  275. Talha says:
    @Showmethereal

    What on earth does Stalin have to do with it????

    Are you going to deny that the political elite of those countries are not those that inherited the countries from the communist era? These guys were party officials.

    I have not seen you come up with one credible way to deal with jihadists

    The assumption in your argument is that all the Uighurs affected by Chinas’s policies are jihadists. If you are actually dealing with bonafide jihadists, well – you kill them – pretty straight forward. Promoting traditional Islam may have a good impact (traditional Islam tends to be at loggerheads with Salafi-Wahhabi style Islam), but China also has to see whether its policies are driving people to extremism. If she is not willing to do that kind of self-introspection and simply assume people are just magically getting radicalized, then OK that’s one way to tackle the issue.

    What China is doing – heavy handed or not – is the LEAST torturous way to handle it.

    Well, that’s the problem, I’d really like to have a reliable source on what exactly China IS doing. Until that is epistemic issue is settled, the other questions simply have to wait.

    Meanwhile the Muslim countries go and inspect the camps

    Yes I have seen this – and I believe the Muslim political elite as far as I can throw them. They are a bunch of corrupt people looking out for their own self-interests, often bombing the hell out of poor Muslim countries like Yemen.

    What on earth does Stalin have to do with it????

    Are you going to deny that the political elite of those countries are not those that inherited the countries from the communist era? These guys were party officials.

    I have not seen you come up with one credible way to deal with jihadists

    The assumption in your argument is that all the Uighurs affected by Chinas’s policies are jihadists. If you are actually dealing with bonafide jihadists, well – you kill them – pretty straight forward. Promoting traditional Islam may have a good impact (traditional Islam tends to be at loggerheads with Salafi-Wahhabi style Islam), but China also has to see whether its policies are driving people to extremism. If she is not willing to do that kind of self-introspection and simply assume people are just magically getting radicalized, then OK that’s one way to tackle the issue.

    What China is doing – heavy handed or not – is the LEAST torturous way to handle it.

    Well, that’s the problem, I’d really like to have a reliable source on what exactly China IS doing. Until that is epistemic issue is settled, the other questions simply have to wait.

    Meanwhile the Muslim countries go and inspect the camps

    Yes I have seen this – and I believe the Muslim political elite as far as I can throw them. They are a bunch of corrupt people looking out for their own self-interests, often bombing the hell out of poor Muslim countries like Yemen. I already stated “…whatever the truth is with regard to what is happening in Xingjian, the conversation now is purely theoretical as far as I’m concerned – China has won the political argument on the world stage. No one is going to stop her from whatever she wants to do at this point. Even a country like the US really doesn’t have much of a hand to play at this point.”

    My interest in this is purely finding out what’s going on from a reliable source. I know nothing will change from a political standpoint – sometimes the only option one has is to pray sincerely and appeal to God in their night vigil prayers on behalf of their brothers and sisters. I had mentioned that I would love to know what someone like John Pilger knows and thinks about what is going on, I like him and his investigations.

    Personally, I think what India is planning on doing in Kashmir right now is potentially way worse than anything China is doing in Xinjiang. But the Western media isn’t playing that up as much since India is not seen as much of a geopolitical threat.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  276. Lin says:
    @Talha

    “Some were and some were rejected (as we saw above). For instance, Arabs had no problems marrying unlimited wives, but Islam limited it to 4. They also used to bury their daughters alive if they didn’t want to raise them, but that was prohibited too.”
    Pls notice that I said “you confirm my view that many Arabic customs were sanctified through Islam. “ and I didn’t say ALL arab customs.
    Lets discuss it on a fair and rational basis. Lets concentrate on polygamy/women rights and slavery issue first(I will explain why)
    –These are human issues since time immemorial.
    –The overwhelming % of muslims world wide have only one wife. A significant % of the very wealthy world wide, muslims or kufirs have many sex partners, legit or not. The muslim ruling of ‘limited to 4’ can easily bypassed by lots of labellings. Just how big were the harems of the ottoman rulers/elite? Obviously >>>> 4. Morever one can’t deny that de-legitimization of polygamy is human progress. Just ask the average women if they prefer sharing the habitat with other sex-partners of her husband.
    –How to define slavery? If we count indenture like bonded servants, prison forced labour, it has a wider meaning, like the earlier ‘slaves’ in N.america were likely Irish. I read slavery system of muslim kingdoms/empires were different from the others and the Holy Prophet had once asked some of his followers to free their slaves (but not abolishing the slavery system) but only the muslims and white American Christians had justified slavery based on their interpretation of their Holy books. Saudi arabia didn’t abolish slavery until 1962. Here I’m talking about slavery accessible by the average Saudis, not forced labours in prison which is a different story.
    ……………….
    The above are prime examples to justify retarding human progress because certain cultural components were sanctified
    Why the above 2 issues? Many so called ‘liberals’ love to crown themselves ‘progressives’ ?
    WHat’s progression? It literally means moving along with time. And what’s the engine of progression? It’s not ideology nor relgions(though these can retard progression), it’s economy,technology and new energy resources. An ancient landlord wanted cheap labors? simple, just buy more slaves from the slave market; Why women were considered inferior? The answer was very simple:they lacked muscular strength to handle edged weapons and bows. The ancient took it easy with such issues because these were simple solution to their problems. Jesus, a moral giant by any standard, asked the ‘servants’ to obey their masters. But as steam engine, internal combustion engine, new energy sources… came into being, slavery and muscular strength didn’t look that necessary. Just tell me how did the Saudis justify keeping their slaves until 1962 and disallowed woman driving cars until only recently? The bottom line is when certain cultural habits got sanctified, human progression suffered. How could one change the law of the almighty?
    ……….
    Last not the most important issue:
    You told us you’re waiting for spiritual awakening of the Ummah.
    In my opinion, the biggest issue the muslims face world wide is lack of economic and technological momentum. Petroleum is a gift to the muslims(I read it so often from muslims)but allah might withdraw that gift and give the kufirs new energy sources like nuclear fusion. Most of the muslim migrants flock into Europe are economic refugees

    • Replies: @Talha
  277. Malla says:
    @Showmethereal

    The Brits were complete aliens and remained so.

    The British Raj is much more complicated than that.

  278. @Talha

    Younmake it sound easy. Just kill jihadists huh? Hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions more displaced in the world shows its not so easy. There are tons of collateral damage. So when you kill innocents their kids become jihadists because and ideology cant just dbe destroyed. So China has taken a complete differemt route of just trying to blow them up.
    The results speak for itself. There have been 3 years without terrorist attacks without using planes to drop bombs or drones to blow up cars to kill people indiscriminately. No question some people are caught in the dragnet that probably shouldnt be – but China is not a western style society. It has nothing to do with Stalinism either. Confucian societies are always more about the collective thsn the individual. So if trying to give people an education and teach them a language so that they can get jobs and participate in a society (its a lie their native tongue is forbidden) is the result then hey… Sorry for some inconvenience. Again all the nations – including Muslims that DID go visit – essentially say the same thing.

    Comparing Kashmir is not really even sensible. WAY MORE people have been killed on both sides (government/inusrgents/innocent civilians) in Kashmir than in Xinjiang. It is not even remotely close in number. Xianjiang is a summer camp in comparison. Different history and different issues involved. For my money – they should divide it in half – who wants to go to Pakistan go on the Pakistan side and who wants to go with India (much less people) can go on the Indian side. It will be unfortunate for the ones who want independence – but that isnt realistically goimg to happen. But I digress.

    Yes it is true Muslim elites can be “bought” like anyone else. But as you broight up Yemen – thats a Saudi – Iran proxy. Again China gets along with both. Neither condemn China for Xianjiang. Yet both Saudis and Iranians will readily speak out against Muslim oppression elsewhere. Which all brings back to the premise of the article. The leader of the World Uigher movement who lives in the US was turned just like the Dalai Lama. Both served in capacity in China’s government before “flipping”. Dalai Lama files have been declassified. Hers wont be for many years. Same playbook. Her own father fought with the Soviets against the Nationalist Chinese government of Chiang Kai Shek – which we now know as Taiwan. When the communists took over she was given position as a representative. Substitute the Soviets for the Brits and you have the same exact issue with the Dalai Lamas.
    Indeed John Pilger would be good. But the fact is he would be discounted by most westerners as a “pro communist stooge”. Why? Simply because he doesnt ride the “China is the source of all problems” gravy train.

    • Replies: @Talha
  279. Talha says:
    @Showmethereal

    No question some people are caught in the dragnet that probably shouldnt be

    Thank you for this admission – it’s one of the first time someone has admitted this may be the case (and I mean this sincerely). This is my primary concern. I do not have a problem with China going after bonafide terrorist types – she has every right to. She even has a right to go after people that are fighting for Xinjiang to break away, every nation has a right to preserve its national integrity.

    My personal feeling it that too many people may be caught up in this thing that have done nothing more than be regular at the mosque or wear a long beard or the like. Basically being caught up in a large net.

    There is also evidence that China is clearing and leveling very old mosques in the area. When I mentioned this to Godfree Roberts on another thread, he didn’t deny it, he simply said this is how China asserts itself to turn people from behaving badly.

    Confucian societies are always more about the collective thsn the individual.

    I understand this and I am a fan of historical China. I believe she was one of the great civilizations of the world. Chinese and Muslim relations go back quite far and they have often been very good. The Companion of the Prophet (pbuh) most credited with the defeat of Persia is buried there:

    I also know that there was a “Great Leap Forward” and millions of Chinese were pushed forward, leaping over millions of other dead Chinese. I am not a fan of communist governments, especially ethno-nationalist ones, but I don’t like it when people lie about them. I just want to know what the facts are.

    So if trying to give people an education and teach them a language so that they can get jobs and participate in a society

    OK – but that can be done without armed guards, watch-towers and barbed wire – so it’s not merely as benign as you make it. Education and language is fine, but are they also forcing people away from the religion into atheistic nationalism as part of the bargain?

    Comparing Kashmir is not really even sensible. WAY MORE people have been killed on both sides (government/inusrgents/innocent civilians) in Kashmir than in Xinjiang.

    Fully agree – no doubt about this. And the fact that it doesn’t receive nearly as much notice shows how much politics is involved in all this.

    who lives in the US

    Yeah, see – I know about how the US government manipulates these things, so I’m not accepting stuff that comes out of the US at face value.

    But the fact is he would be discounted by most westerners as a “pro communist stooge”.

    Well aware of this, but I’ve liked him for decades. Even the stuff he did on Indonesia. He is one of the people that really just cares about what is happening to innocents on the ground irrespective of politics, so – others may dismiss him, but – I would love to hear what he has to say on it after a serious investigation.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  280. @Talha

    No government ever does everything right. It is easy to sit on the internet and say “oh why dod they have to do it so widely”. Well when planes are attempted to be hijacked multiple times – massacres take place all over the country. Even look up what happened with the Uighurs trying to flee to Vietnam. Ome took at AK 47 from the Vietnamese soldiers and had a shootout with them. One of the women jumped off the roof. You can look ot up. MANY of these people are radicalized – including the women. Again Muslim organizations have gone to Xianjiang and said there is no attempt to erase Islam. That is NOT the Chinese government saying so. If that was the case the twelve million Hui Muslims wouldnt be living so peacefully in China now. Those same Hui fought the Han centuries ago. In fact the Hui dont get along much with the Uighurs for the same reason the Han and others dont. Radicalization!!! Im sure if you go on YouTube over the next month you will find visitors to Hui areas of China and see public celebration of Eid. Why? The Hui arent the ones storming the Kunming train station with swords and stabbing everybody in sight. Again you can look it up.
    As a bible believer I fully respect the sanctity of life. So I MUCH prefer China’s admittedly heavy handed approach. But the onky difference is they are doing to adults what usually happens in childhood. The “problem” is the Uighurs were given too much autonomy in the past. Many of ghe adults cant speak the language and have no training or education to contribute to modern society. Now China is going backward to correct the error of letting them do what they wanted. It sounds harsh – but again – much of it is western subterfuge trying to just smear China beczuse China’s success is a threat.
    As to what you said about Mr Godfree. Indedd i think he can go overboard in defending China – but overall what he says is correct. That includes what he has written about lies told about the Great Leap Forward and Tiananmen and Tibet and Taiwan snd Hong Kong and the South China Sea nd the Uighurs also. It s good never to take an extreme view. The truth is ususally somewhere in the middle. And in cases with the western media verses China – when younreally dig for the truth – many times it is closer to China’s version. Not all ways and all the time — but much of it.
    Sidenote – notice I didnt list the Cultural Revolution as something the west lies about. That truthfully was a disaster. That set China back alot… The government “admitted” it by jailing “the gang of four”. Regardless of what the west said China had the right to use lethal fire against rioters who were firebombing soldiers in 1989. But there is no reason or excuse for the Culutral Revolution except that Mao went “mad” in his old age and used naive young people. But as I write this I can find lies from the west too. The idea that they destroued all China’s history. Thats not true either. In fact when then lunatics tried to storm the famous museum in Beijing to destroy relics – they were prevented from doing so. Thats why anyone can go there now today and still see millions of relics. But again – the Cultural Revolution is the one thing where I would say the west gets mainly right.
    Back to the Uighurs and Xianjiang…. It appears from your writings you are a Muslim… Well have you not read in the past few years Muslim tourists have actuallly increased to that area? If China was destroying muslim culture – why would they actively court Muslim tourists to visit?? Yes they will indeed survey you with facial recognition. Yes they will profile you to make sure you aren’t helping radicals and separatists – but you CAN still go and walk the streets yourself to see. You wouldnt want to try that in Yemen or Syria or parts of Iraq still or even Kashmir.

  281. Talha says:
    @Lin

    Just how big were the harems of the ottoman rulers/elite? Obviously >>>> 4

    Sure – the limits are for marriage, not concubinage. The Ottoman sultans and beys with the very large harems represented a very, very small percentage of the population – nobody else could legitimately maintain that many women (slave or free) so it is only something that applies to hyper-alpha males of a society.

    Morever one can’t deny that de-legitimization of polygamy is human progress.

    This is simply an opinion.

    Just ask the average women if they prefer sharing the habitat with other sex-partners of her husband.

    That’s not the right question. The better question is; given the choice, would you settle to be the only wife of an average guy or the second or third wife of a man like Leonardo Dicaprio – that completely changes the response.

    but only the muslims and white American Christians had justified slavery based on their interpretation of their Holy books.

    Everyone else justified slavery because they saw no reason that it was wrong. Slavery was a universal practice; Mayans, Chinese, Native Americans, Romans, Vikings, etc. Have you read what Aristotle or Plato had to say about it?

    the biggest issue the muslims face world wide is lack of economic and technological momentum.

    The Europeans have this in much greater proportions than the Muslim world and their spiritual state is in complete collapse and religion seems to be a joke:
    “1,000 Catholic churches in Holland to close by 2025”
    https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/170/1-000-catholic-churches-in-holland-to-close-by-2025

    Is that what material opulence will lead to – abandoned and empty mosques? Why would Muslims in their right mind want to follow that route? Technological and economic progress is just fine until it gets in the way or distracts you from your primary purpose in life; worshiping and developing a relationship with your Creator. If that happens, it is better that one eat dirt and sleep under the stars than abandon one’s Guardian Lord. One of the core doctrines of Islam is that one should not let this world delude you as to your final destination:
    “Know that the life of this world is but amusement and diversion and adornment and boasting to one another and competition in increase of wealth and children — like the example of a rain whose [resulting] plant growth pleases the tillers; then it dries and you see it turned yellow; then it becomes [scattered] debris. And in the Hereafter is severe punishment and forgiveness from Allah and approval. And what is the worldly life except the enjoyment of delusion?” (57:20)

    Peace.

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