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Why Was Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 Shot Down?
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Four years ago, on 17 July 2014, in the midst of a civil war raging in eastern Ukraine, Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was destroyed with all 298 passengers and crew. On 25 May last, the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) entrusted with the criminal investigation of the downing and composed of the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and paradoxically, given its possible involvement, Ukraine, presented its second progress report. Like the first report in September 2016, it took the form of a press conference, with video animations supporting the investigation’s findings. This time there was even less to report; the main conclusion was that elements from the Russian 53rd Buk missile brigade were the culprits, a claim already made by the London-based investigative group Bellingcat two years before. In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims’ relatives. How can it possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two months later?

The JIT press conference was immediately followed by a formal declaration on the part of the Dutch and Australian governments that held Russia responsible. However, JIT member Malaysia dissociated itself from the accusation, whilst Belgium has remained silent. The obviously over-hasty conclusion, on the heels of the alleged Skripal nerve gas incident in Salisbury and the likewise contested Syrian government gas attack on jihadist positions in Douma, all point in the same direction: Putin’s Russia must be kept under fire and there is no time to wait for a court verdict.

ORDER IT NOW

In my book Flight MH17, Ukraine and the New Cold War. Prism of Disaster (Manchester University Press), I have refrained from entering the slippery terrain of making claims about who pulled the trigger, intentionally or by accident, in the late afternoon of 17 July, or even which type of weapon was used. For the downing of the Malaysian plane has become part of a propaganda war that was already heating up prior to the catastrophe. Instead the book is about what we do know about the events surrounding it, in the preceding months, weeks, and days, indeed even on the day itself. Subsequent events have only underlined that it is this context that lends meaning to the tragedy.

Refocusing US Supremacy After the Soviet Collapse

Today, Western imperialism projects its global power, as far as capital is concerned, primarily from the perspective of speculative, financial asset investment. Long gone are the days of class and international compromise forced upon it after World War Two. Instead, the predatory instincts of dominant financial capital require forcibly opening up all states for commodification and exploitation. Given the global spread of product and commodity chains, the continued flow of profits to the West cannot be taken for granted as long as effective state sovereignty elsewhere persists. For the liberal, Anglophone heartland of capital, ‘defence’ is therefore not merely, or even primarily, a matter of upholding the territorial integrity of the states constituting it, but keeping open the arterial system of the global economy and maintaining the centrality of the West. Regime change is a logical corollary, and from this perspective we must view the coup in Ukraine in February 2014 and all ensuing events, including the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17.

Right from the Soviet collapse in 1991, the US global perspective was articulated in several new strategic doctrines. The first and perhaps foundational one is the Wolfowitz Doctrine, named after Paul Wolfowitz, undersecretary of defence in the Bush Sr. administration, who commissioned a Defence Planning Guidance for Fiscal 1994-’99 (DPG) of 1992. It proclaims the United States the world’s sole superpower, which must remain ahead of all possible contenders in arms technology and never again accept military parity, as with the USSR during the Cold War. The newly self-confident European Union, too, was obliquely warned that the US alone would handle global policing.

Additional doctrines, specifying on which grounds armed US intervention might be undertaken and justified, added elements such as humanitarian intervention (a Carnegie Endowment report of 1992, Self-Determination in the New World Order); it was applied in Yugoslavia and again in Libya. Next, the‘War on Terror’, originally floated at Israeli Likud/US Neocon conferences between 1979 and 1984, was revived after the collapse of the USSR as the ‘Clash of Civilizations’ by Cold War strategist Samuel Huntington; Afghanistan and Iraq stand as monuments of the application of this doctrine. Finally, Zbigniew Brzezinski’s The Grand Chessboard of 1997 specifically dealt with reorganising the former USSR, including Ukraine.

Through the different episodes, NATO was transformed into a global policing structure serving the interests of Atlantic capital. ‘Out of area operations’, unthinkable in the Yalta epoch, were first tried out against the Bosnian Serbs in the mid-1990s. The enlargement of the alliance into the former Soviet bloc, which began around that time too, was obviously motivated to prevent European departures from US tutelage, hence its bold forward surge. Already in 1994, Ukraine became the first former Soviet republic to join the Partnership for Peace, the newly created waiting room for NATO membership. To quell Russian concerns about the advancing West, the NATO-Russia Founding Act of 1997 laid down that no nuclear weapons and permanent troop deployments would take place in new member states. Yet Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, and Moldova not long afterwards joined a low-key organisation of former Soviet republics (after the initials, GUAM), another oblique link up with NATO.

Mobilising Georgia and Ukraine against Resurgent Russia

Russia under Yeltsin had effectively surrendered its sovereignty to transnational capital and the West and as a result was left a social and economic disaster zone. Under his successor, Vladimir Putin, the country began to mutate back to a society led by a directive state, assisted by rising oil prices. After the United States unilaterally withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty in 2002 and announced a missile defence system deployed in the CzechRepublic, Poland, and Rumania, Russia shifted to a more robust international position. The Anglo-American invasion of Iraq on a false pretext made abundantly clear that the West was abandoning the rules of the post-war international order. ‘Democracy promotion’ intended to prevent national sovereignty from being mobilised against Western global governance, was now made a priority. The ‘Rose Revolution’ in Georgia in 2003 and the ‘Orange Revolution’ a year later in Ukraine, marked the lengths to which the United States was willing to go.

Yet even a colour revolution means little if there is no accompanying make-over of the fundamental state/society relation. Hence, the incoming policy planning director at the US State Department, Stanford professor Stephen Krasner, and Carlos Pascual, former US ambassador in Kiev, developed a comprehensive regime change doctrine in 2004. This would prove a key element in the subsequent Ukraine intervention. To ensure that countries incorporated into the US-NATO sphere of influence, really became neoliberal client states, Pascual and Krasner devised a strategy for preventive intervention with a rulebook listing the measures by which ‘market democracy’ was to be established. Ukraine was a key target and battleground, because by now, Russia was beginning to contest Western forward pressure.

At the Munich Security Conference in January 2007, Putin reminded his audience of the promises made to Gorbachev in 1991 not to expand the Atlantic alliance and warned that further attempts at enlargement (the Baltic states having been included in 2004) would imply great risks. Yet NATO and the EU were inexorably pressing forward. At the Bucharest NATO summit in April 2008 the Americans made the offer of NATO membership to Georgia and Ukraine, only to have the offer vetoed by Germany and France. Possibly to force the issue, the pro-Western president brought to power by the Rose Revolution in Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili, armed and encouraged by the US and Israel, later that year embarked on a military adventure to recapture the breakaway province of South Ossetia. It ended in a complete debacle, as a Russian army stood ready in North Ossetia to deal the invaders a major, if very costly, blow. This, then, was what Richard Sakwa calls, ‘the war to stop NATO enlargement’. From now on, every post-Soviet republic tempted to join the Atlantic alliance would have to reckon with Russian protection for groups resisting such integration, irrespective of whether it concerned actual Russians or any other of the almost two hundred nationalities of the former USSR.

The EU-Russian Energy Equation and Ukraine

The gas from Russia that feeds Europe today was discovered back in the 1960s; the Friendship oil pipeline was built in 1964 and the Soyuz, Urengoi and Yamal pipelines followed after West Germany started purchasing Soviet gas. The link-up culminated in 1980 with the contract for a gas pipeline from Urengoi in north Siberia to Bavaria, signed by a heavy-industry consortium headed by Deutsche Bank.

After the collapse of the USSR, Russian gas had to pass through the pipeline grid of independent Ukraine, which in the meantime had become the prey of rival clans of oligarchs. For most of them, gas was the key source of rapid enrichment—directly, as in the case of subsequent prime minister Yuliya Timoshenko, ‘the Gas Princess’, or indirectly, by supplying steel pipes for gas transport, as in the case of president Leonid Kuchma’s son-in-law, Victor Pinchuk, the ‘Pipeline King’. The economic mismanagement and infighting of the different oligarchic clans in Ukraine led to payment arrears and repeated shutdowns of the gas supply from Russia, and Gazprom, the state-owned Russian gas company, early on began to look for ways to bypass the Ukrainian grid.

After Putin had come to power, he disciplined the Russian oligarchs as part of the restoration of state sovereignty. Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the energy oligarch and richest of all Russian billionaires at the time, at the time was buying support in the Duma to build a trans-Siberian pipeline to China; whilst negotiating with ExxonMobil and Chevron about US participation in his Yukos concern, which he planned to merge with Sibneft into the world’s largest oil company. In 2005 he was convicted to a long prison sentence. Yukos was brought back into the Russian patrimony via a proxy construction involving state-owned Rosneft and Gazprom, as part of broader subordination of the economy to the state.

Gazprom meanwhile began building alliances to avoid future disruption of supplies via Ukraine and secure its European market. In 2005 it agreed with the outgoing government of Gerhard Schröder to build a pipeline across the Baltic directly to Germany, ‘Nord Stream’, with a consortium of German companies. Schröder was made the chairman of the board of the joint venture, Achimgaz, and two years later, a South Stream pipeline across the Black Sea to Bulgaria was contracted with ENI of Italy. It was to be extended into south-eastern Europe as far as Austria. In this way Gazprom and the Russian state were outmanoeuvring various EU projects for pipelines aimed at by-passing Russia. Indeed it was the EU’s plan to use a Nabucco pipeline across Turkey to connect to the Caspian energy reserves that prompted the $40 billion South Stream project. Romano Prodi, prime minister of Italy, who first discussed South Stream with Putin in late 2006, was offered the chairmanship, which he declined, perhaps in the knowledge the project would become highly contested.

The Eurasian connection by now posed a direct threat to the cohesion of the enlarged Atlantic bloc. Besides Nord Stream and South Stream, Gazprom’s collaboration with NIOC of Iran and a joint venture with ENI in Libya set all alarm bells ringing in Washington. Already in May 2006, a few months after the gas shutdown to Ukraine, the US Senate unanimously adopted a resolution calling on NATO to protect the energy security of its members and have it develop a diversification strategy away from Russia. Senator Richard Lugar in a much-noted speech prior to the NATO summit in Riga, Latvia, in November 2006, argued in favour of designating the manipulation of the energy supply as a ‘weapon’ that can activate Article 5 of the NATO treaty (common defence).

In a report to the European Parliament in 2008, the director of the EurasianPolicyCenter of the Hudson Institute in the US recommended that the EU should assist in liberalising and modernising the Ukrainian grid instead of supporting South Stream. Tension in the Black Sea area, her report noted candidly, might serve the purpose of blocking that pipeline altogether. However, after the 2010 election of president Victor Yanukovych, the front man of the powerful eastern and southern oligarchs, the lease of Russia’s Crimean naval base at Sebastopol, home of its Black Sea fleet, had been extended to 2042, so the prospects for stirring up unrest there were mitigated by Moscow’s enduring naval preponderance.

Regime Change in Kiev

One aspect of the resurgence of a sovereign Russia was the plan for a Eurasian economic union to rebuild relations with former Soviet republics (Ukraine obtained observer status early on). The EU’s Eastern Partnership was a direct response. It was offered to former Soviet republics in 2008, in a gesture that signalled that Europe now effectively acted as a subcontractor to the larger anti-Russian design drafted in Washington. Concretely, the EU offered Ukraine and other former Soviet republics an Association Agreement that also included provisions for the country’s alignment on NATO security policy, besides a neoliberal make-over in the spirit of the Krasner-Pascual doctrine. The envisaged reforms would be devastating for the country’s existing power structure, not least for the Donbass oligarchs whose front man was Yanukovych. Their heavy industry assets would be swept away by EU competition, the country turned into an agricultural supplier, and Russian gas cut off.

Hence, when both the EU and Russia sought to win over Yanukovych to join their respective blocs and Brussels ruled out the triangular arrangement by which the Ukrainian president had hoped to postpone the choice, he could not but step back from signing the EU Association Agreement in November 2013 and accept a Russian counteroffer. By then, ‘Europe’ had become a code word for an end to oligarchic rapaciousness, in which Yanukovych and his sons had become involved as well. The president’s decision triggered mass demonstrations and occupations, which this time included an armed insurrection by Ukrainian ultra-nationalists in the historically anti-Russian west of the country. It created the space for actual fascists to hijack the protests and prepare a coup. By their use of deadly force at the Maidan central square (ascribed by the coup plotters and in the West to the riot police), the Ukrainian ultras demonstrated they were ready to kill their own compatriots to achieve their aims.

To prevent the situation from getting out of hand completely, the foreign ministers of Germany, France and Poland flew to Kiev on 20 February 2014. However, whilst they negotiated a deal with Yanukovych and the opposition, the US and other NATO ambassadors met with Andriy Parubiy, the co-founder of the fascist party of Ukraine and former head of its militia, Patriot of Ukraine. Parubiy, today the speaker of the Kiev parliament, was in command of the armed gangs at the Maidan; two days later these took power in the capital, installing a government of Ukrainian nationalist stripe, selected by US diplomats. Parubiy was appointed secretary of the National Security and Defence Council (NSDC), a key post overseeing all military and intelligence operations, which he continued to hold until three weeks after the downing of MH17. With the Russian-Ukrainian half of the country effectively disenfranchised, the coup was responded to by the secession of Crimea and an armed insurrection in the Donbass. Stirrings of revolt in Odessa and Mariupol would be suppressed with deadly violence, in which Parubiy and other far right figures were directly involved.

Confronting the BRICS in Ukraine

From late March onwards the war party in the United States and NATO began to elaborate a strategy that would make Ukraine the testing ground for a trial of strength with Russia and China. The secession of Crimea and its re-incorporation into the Russian Federation was exploited to evoke the spectre of an impending Russian invasion on several fronts. General Philip Breedlove, commander of US Eucom (European Command, one of nine regional US military commands spanning the globe) and NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe (Saceur), coordinated the Western position with General Wesley Clark, a former NATO Saceur at the time of the Yugoslavia wars. Clark was already advising Kiev forces in eastern Ukraine before the Donbass had actually risen in revolt. On 12April he asked Breedlove whether the NATO commander could not arrange a statement blaming Moscow for the violence because ‘if the Ukrainians lose control of the narrative, the Russians will see it as an open door’. Clark then elaborated on the general geopolitical situation, giving further insights into why the war party in the US believed that Ukraine was to be ‘held’ and chosen as a battle ground to confront Russia and China. No time was wasted on market democracy here. Claiming that ‘Putin has read US inaction in Georgia and Syria as US “weakness”,’ Clark went on to explain that

China is watching closely. China will have four aircraft carriers and airspace dominance in the Western Pacific within 5 years, if current trends continue. And if we let Ukraine slide away, it definitely raises the risks of conflict in the Pacific. For, China will ask, would the US then assert itself for Japan, Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines, the South China Sea? …If Russia takes Ukraine, Belarus will join the Eurasian Union, and, presto, the Soviet Union (in another name) will be back. …Neither the Baltics nor the Balkans will easily resist the political disruptions empowered by a resurgent Russia. And what good is a NATO “security guarantee” against internal subversion?… And then the US will face a much stronger Russia, a crumbling NATO, and [a] major challenge in the Western Pacific. Far easier to [hold] the line now, in Ukraine than elsewhere, later.

On the weekend of 13 to 14 April, CIA Director John Brennan was in the Ukrainian capital. The Anti-Terrorist Operation (ATO, so called because the use of military force within the country is only warranted under that label) began right after Brennan’s visit; Parubiy sent out a Twitter message on the 15th that veterans of the Maidan uprising were poised to join the fight. Since NATO had earlier implored Yanukovych not to use force against (armed) demonstrators, Moscow now asked the alliance to restrain the coup leaders in turn. But according to foreign minister Lavrov, the answer they got was that ‘NATO would ask them to use force proportionately’.

In fact even the oligarch, Petro Poroshenko, elected president on 25 May 2014 to provide a veneer of legitimacy to the coup regime, proved unable to restrain the hardliners. On 30 June, following a four-hour NSDC meeting with Parubiy, interior minister Avakov, and others whose armed followers were demonstrating outside, Poroshenko declared that the ceasefire would be lifted and a new offensive launched. Three days later NATO naval manoeuvres in the Black Sea commenced with US participation and with electronic warfare a key component. On the ground, Kiev’s forces made rapid progress, apparently drawing a ring around the large rebel city of Donetsk. NATO had its own concerns: an upcoming summit in Wales in September was expected to capitalise on the trope of a ‘Russian invasion’, vital after the Afghanistan debacle, and dovetailing with the emerging contest with the BRICS bloc.

The BRICS, coined first as a banker’s gimmick, were never more than a loose collection of ‘(re-) emerging economies’, but from Washington’s perspective, sovereign entities not submitting to neoliberal global governance are unacceptable. So when on 16 July, the BRICS heads of state, hosted by the Brazilian president, Dilma Rousseff (removed by a rightwing conspiracy in May 2016), signed the statute establishing a New Development Bank, or BRICS bank, as a direct challenge to the US and Western-dominated World Bank and IMF, the US imposed new sanctions on Russia over Ukraine, specifically targeting the energy link with the EU. The creation of an equivalent of the World Bank with a capital of $100 billion with a reserve currency pool of the same size (an equivalent of the IMF), laid the groundwork of a contender pole in the global political economy challenging the West’s austerity regime frontally—or so it seemed at the time.

Still in Brazil before flying back to Moscow, Russian president Putin on the fringes of the football world cup finals also agreed with German Chancellor Angela Merkel to pursue a comprehensive Land for gas deal. Its tentative provisions included normalising the status of Crimea in exchange for a massive economic rehabilitation plan and a gas price rebate for Ukraine. However, a special European Council meeting convened on the 16th could not reach agreement on whether the EU should follow the American lead this time, since countries with export interests to Russia and dependent on its gas, were balking. Instead, the Council stressed the EU’s commitment ‘to pursue trilateral talks on the conditions of gas supply from the Russian Federation to Ukraine’ in order to ‘safeguard the security of supply and transit of natural gas through Ukraine.’

The Downing of Flight MH17 and South Stream

The downing of MH17 on 17 July changed all that. As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day—but all that remains inconclusive. The official reports by the Dutch Safety Board and the JIT may be conveniently dismissed although the DSB rightly pointed at the questionable decision by Kiev to allow civilian planes to fly over a war zone. However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West’s intent to exploit the event to the maximum.

Former secretary of state and then-presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton in a TV interview on the 18th called for making ‘Russia pay the price’ once its culpability had been established. Her to-do list for the EU included, one, ‘toughen sanctions’; two, find alternatives to Gazprom, and third, ‘do more in concert with us to support the Ukrainians’. The ‘Land for gas’ negotiations were shelved and on the 22nd Europe dropped the remaining hesitations when it underwrote the US sanctions targeting Russia’s role as an energy supplier. As Mark Leonard, founder and director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, noted in a newspaper interview a year later, without MH17 it would have been pretty difficult to find sufficient support for the increased sanctions on the Russian economy’.

In 2009 the EU had introduced a new energy policy, dubbed a ‘Third Energy Package’. It does not permit gas to be transported to the EU by the company producing it, effectively forcing Gazprom to sell even the gas piped through the Ukrainian grid to other companies before it could enter the EU. Nord Stream had still been exempted from EU competition rules, but the projected South Stream was not, never mind that most contracts with Gazprom had been signed before the Third Energy Package came into force. Even at the time of the Kiev coup, commentators wondered to what extent shale gas from the US might be used to offset Russian deliveries. LNG facilities planned in Florida and Maryland were projected to serve the European market at Gazprom’s expense, a prospect meanwhile far more realistic.

The Crimean secession and incorporation into the Russian Federation obviously played its own role here. Crimea is a historically Russian region; having been assigned to Ukraine by a whim of Soviet party leader Khrushchev in 1954, it never reconciled itself to being part of an independent Ukraine. After the nationalist coup in late February, the status of the Russian naval base in Sebastopol was in the balance. In 1991, the Black Sea had been a Soviet/bloc inland sea, with one NATO country (Turkey) bordering it. Now there were two more NATO/EU countries and two pro-Western, aspiring NATO members on its littoral. So when one week after the coup, three former Ukrainian Presidents, Kravchuk, Kuchma, and Yushchenko, called on the coup government in Kiev to cancel the agreement under which the lease of Sebastopol, home to the Russian Black Sea fleet, had been extended to 2042, the question of who would be able to project naval power over the Black Sea became acute. The question now was whether Russia would be able to provide cover for a large-scale project such as South Stream, or not.

South Stream itself came into the firing line directly. The European Parliament, which never raised the issue of why the February agreement with Yanukovych the EU brokered had been sidelined by the coup, on 17 April 2014 adopted a non-binding resolution opposing the South Stream gas pipeline and recommended a search for alternative sources of gas. On 28 April, the United States imposed a ban on business transactions within its territory on seven Russian officials, including Igor Sechin, the CEO of Rosneft, the Russian state oil company, as well as Gennady Timchenko, whose Volga Group controls Stroytransgaz, the company entrusted with building the Bulgarian section of South Stream. Nevertheless the Bulgarian parliament approved South Stream two weeks after the reincorporation of Crimea, circumventing the EU’s anti-trust legislation by renaming the pipeline a ‘sea-land connection’.The European Commission then instructed Bulgaria to stop work on South Stream and proceeded to cut off tens of millions of much-needed regional development funds, whilst the US ambassador warned Bulgarian companies against working with Timchenko. A final visit of US Senators John McCain and Ron Johnson, in combination with other punitive measures then led to the cancellation in early June. As Eric Draitser commented at the time, ‘South Stream has become one of the primary battlegrounds in the economic war that the West is waging against Russia’.

The downing of Flight MH17 also definitively sealed the fate of South Stream. Russian banks financing the project, led by Gazprombank, were hit by new sanctions, so that the necessary capital could no longer be raised internationally. Putin earlier had hinted at moving the transit of gas for the EU to non-European countries; in August, it was reported there was a Plan B in the works to export via Turkey. On 1 December 2014, during a state visit to Ankara, the Russian president announced that in light of Western sanctions and the refusal of construction permits in the EU, South Stream would be replaced by a ‘Turkish Stream’ pipeline, besides the existing Blue Stream link. However, in November 2015, a Turkish F-16 shot down a Russian fighter jet over northern Syria, throwing relations between Moscow and Ankara into a deep crisis and entailing the cancellation of Turkish Stream. This was only overcome after the July 2016 coup attempt against Erdoğan, in which Russia sided with the Turkish president, possibly even warning him in advance. Since the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase that took part in the coup attempt, the incident over Syria would appear to fit in a framework that may also have decided the fate of Flight MH17: a provocation to throw relations with Russia into disarray, but we don’t know for sure.

Regime Change in Moscow?

The MH17 disaster occurred in the context of a deep crisis, in which capitalist discipline as imposed from its historic epicentre in the West, has become primarily predatory, relying to an ever-greater extent on violence. Speculative financial operations in combination with the ‘War on Terror’ have spread economic risk and repression at home, war and regime change abroad. Human survival itself has been turned into a global gamble played out over the head of the affected populations for private gain. The West, led by the effectively bankrupt United States, increasingly relies on force to sabotage the formation of any alternative, something its own social formation can no longer bring forth. Even the most promising, potentially revolutionary IT and media developments coming out of Silicon Valley have been mortgaged by a planetary project of communications surveillance to safeguard US imperial positions.

Back in the 1980s, when it launched the second Cold War, the Reagan administration intended to destabilise the Soviet bloc and bring about regime change in Moscow. This is also the aim of the current, new Cold War. A 2015 Chatham House report, ‘The Russian Challenge’, discusses this in some detail. Although it concedes that the West cannot have an interest in Russia sliding into complete anarchy, neither should the Putin presidency be protected ‘against change, whether managed or violent’. Therefore, ‘whether Putin was ousted by an internal coup, by illness or by popular unrest… , it would nevertheless be sensible for the West to give further thought to how it might deal with the consequences of regime change in Russia.’

Effective communication with the Russian people and the defence of human values beforehand would be essential for Western credibility… Planning for the future ought, lastly, to cover the scenarios from changes of leadership within the current structures, to the emergence of a group ready to pursue structural reform in some sort of accountable dialogue with the Russian population, to regime collapse.

The president of the National Endowment for Democracy, Carl Gershman, in a piece for the Washington Post in October 2016 suggested launching a new, sustained anti-Putin campaign, for which the contract killing of the journalist, Anna Politkovskaya, ten years earlier, might be used as a vignette.

For such a campaign, George Soros’ Open Society Foundation can be trusted to have elaborated the ‘civil society’/colour revolution scenarios, whilst identifying the groups that might be mobilised for their execution. The OSF plan of action for 2014-17, titled Russia Project Strategy, identifies Russian intellectuals active in Western academic and opinion networks, the Russian gay movement, and others as potential levers for civil society protest against the conservative bloc in power in Moscow. From the OSF documents hacked by the CyberBerkut collective, Alexei Navalny’s Anti-Corruption Foundation emerges as the key beneficiary, and discussion portals and liberal media such as Echo of Moscow radio station, RBK news agency, and the newspaper Vedomosti, as the preferred channels to disseminate content.

There is no need to repeat that all this is part a powerful offensive to derail the loose contender bloc around China and Russia, which had constituted itself in the face of Western aggressiveness and crisis. The seizure of power in Ukraine as well as the secession of Crimea and the civil war in the east, which has meanwhile cost the lives of more than 13,000 people and displaced a million, as well as economic warfare against Russia by the US and the EU, have brought the danger of a large European war several steps closer. Whether the actual downing of Flight MH17 was an intentional, premeditated act or an accident, whether it involved a jet attack, an anti-aircraft missile, or both, ultimately cannot be established with certainty. Yet both the NATO war party and the coup regime in Kiev, which on many occasions has demonstrated that its ultra-nationalist and fascist antecedents are very much alive, would have been perfectly capable of such an act and had the means for it. Most importantly, they had the motive. Those in power in Kiev had several times already attempted to draw Moscow into the civil war, directly and through a NATO intervention. If this indeed was their aim, it would also have served the Atlantic bloc’s determined and long-standing commitment to force continental Europe into an antagonistic relation with Russia.

In the current global conjuncture, even the tentative contender coalition combining the Eurasian Union, the BRICS and the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, constitutes an acute danger to a capitalist West in crisis. Whether the United States and NATO would therefore also be willing to take even greater risks than they are doing now is a prospect too frightening to contemplate. However, it must be confronted, or the fate of the 298 people on Flight MH17 may become that of humanity at large.

Kees van der Pijl is a Fellow, Centre for Global Political Economy and Professor Emeritus of the School of Global Studies at the University of Sussex.

 
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  1. anon[115] • Disclaimer says:

    As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day—but all that remains inconclusive.

    This article is supposed to be about why the airliner was shot down, and this confused garble is all the author has to say about the crucial event?

    1. If the evidence supports the claim that the Russians did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

    2. If the evidence tends to show that Urkaine or the U.S. did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

    3. If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive.

    The facts matter, but not to this writer.

  2. Mr. Hack says:

    . Those in power in Kiev had several times already attempted to draw Moscow into the civil war, directly and through a NATO intervention.

    This analysis is so biased and inaccurate that it has no basis to hang together with a coherent conclusion. This quote is a good example of the author’s inarticulate manner in presenting his own completely fantasized (but original) gibberish. Ukraine trying to draw Moscow into the civil war directly? Why not just further this line of nonsense and declare that Ukraine invited the ‘little green men’ into the Crimea to have it annexed by Russia too? :-)

    • Replies: @animalogic
    , @Skeptikal
  3. ALCvA says:

    I don’t know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 nor do I know what happed to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 on 8 March 2014. Except that my suspicion is aroused that there is a connection with these events and the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law.

    In November 2011 the tribunal purportedly exercised universal jurisdiction to try in absentia former US President George W. Bush and former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, convicting both for crimes against peace because of what the tribunal concluded was the unlawful invasion of Iraq.

    In May 2012 after hearing testimony for a week from victims of torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, the tribunal unanimously convicted in absentia former President Bush, former Vice President Dick Cheney, former Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former Deputy Assistant Attorneys General John Yoo and Jay Bybee, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and former counsellors David Addington and William Haynes II of conspiracy to commit war crimes, specifically torture. The tribunal referred their findings to the chief prosecutor at the International Court of Justice in the Hague.

    In November 2013, the tribunal convicted State of Israel guilty of genocide of the Palestinian people and convicted former Israeli general Amos Yaron for crimes against humanity and genocide for his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

    Thus, my conspiratorial mind suspects that there is a connection between the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal’s convictions and the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 and Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.

    The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media.

  4. mcohen says:

    Shooting down a Malaysian passenger jet over the ukraine with a Russian missile = bringing down a russisn passenger jet over the egyptian sinai.
    THEREFORE : x=y

    both are true.

    • Replies: @Mike P
    , @annamaria
  5. Biff says:
    @ALCvA

    MH370 is most likely in Diego Garcia.
    Look there.

    • Replies: @Karl
  6. @ALCvA

    I also have this in the book, with the same details, and after a discussion that also includes Malaysia’s arms purchases in Russia, I write ‘But we should be reminded that we are looking at a ‘systems event’, a conditional structure of great complexity, in which even factors that are highly unlikely to have been the cause (such as punishing Malaysia or killing Putin) may yet have played a role, at some point, in overcoming moral or other barriers.’

  7. ” However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West’s intent to exploit the event to the maximum. ”

    The key sentence.
    Dutch vice first minister Asscher at the time of the disaster was on vacation in the south of France.
    This fool, in a Dutch tv show, explained the need for secrecy, in the afternoon of the day of the MH17 disaster prime minister Rutte called Asscher on his mobile, and asked him to call back on a land line ‘so that the Russians could not listen in’.
    Until now no Dutch people’s representative dared to ask Rutte what was so secret then that the Russians had tobe prevented from listening in.
    The only thing I can think of is that Rutte told Asscher ‘we want the Russians to get the blame’.

    It is interesting to see how the MH17 propaganda follows the example of the holocaust propaganda.
    Monuments, remembrances, accusations, but never any concrete facts.
    One might also say ‘follows the Sept 11 propaganda’.
    As a USA politician said ‘MH17 is the Dutch Sept 11′.

    I did not read the article carefully, so I do not know if it mentions that suspect Ukraine is part of the investigation organisation, or that Ukraine spied on the investigation.

    But the essential question remains, except for an accident, why would Russia shoot down a passenger plane ?
    Putin is not stupid, he does not do things that just harm him.

    • Agree: FB
  8. @ALCvA

    In a Dutch talkshow the chairman of the Dutch airline pilots organisation Benno Baksteen mentioned casually that aboard MH370 there were two groups of Chinese technicians specialised in making planes invisible for radar.
    Nowhere in the media this was picked up, Benno Baksteen never again was on tv, and, as far as I know, he’s no longer chairman.
    My theory on MH17: control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, this is possible since early 2001.
    It was directed direction Antarctica, until is crashed, lack of fuel.
    The second pilot tried to use his mobile phone to make contact, however, this is not possible, a passenger plane flies simply to fast, there was a connection, but before he could say anything the plane was too far away.
    Also one of the Sept 11 problems.
    So, following the old question ‘who benefitted’, it is clear for me who the suspect is.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  9. @ALCvA

    Agree completely with your “conspiratorial mind”.

    Unfortunately even in so called Alt-Media or Russia’s propaganda outlets like RT, the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals , also known as The Russel Tribunal is unknown.

    More difficult for the families of the victims is that the decision of The Russel Tribunal are not enforceable…So the war criminals can just carry on with their “brilliant careers”.

  10. @ALCvA

    So little known that they would have been too inconsequential to explain *anything*. MH370 was full of mostly Chinese passengers returning to China and MH17 had a cabin full of people almost equal unlikely to be the target of assassins. Malaysian Airlines is government owned. Is there any reason for damaging it and, to a minor extent, the Malaysian economy in consequence? It can’t be a warning or it would have to be publicised – and believed. In any event MH370′s crash has been almost definitively ascribed to the Captain’s planned murder-suicide.

    • Replies: @FB
  11. @anon

    Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn’t encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board’s report could be “conveniently [sic] dismissed”. As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn’t seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board’s technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team’s work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

    He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

    Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from

    http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/

    showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

    What happened to flight MH17?

    Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
    Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

    [MORE]

    Facebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedinmailby feather
    Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.

    Van der Pijl ‘s ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.

    Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.

    Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.

    A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.

    Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.

    Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.

    Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.

    Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation “I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do”

    However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.

    Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl “an important factor”

    Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.

    Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.

    Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.

    At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. “only these were three different explanations”.

    “Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack”. “A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia”.

    I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated

    “We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism,” Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.

    Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.

    At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. “Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted”

    At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.

    He then talks about ‘tanks with surface to air missile’ on it. Even the words ‘BUK TELAR’ is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.

    Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.

    Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.

    At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.

    Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.

    This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.

    Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.

    He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.

    Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.

    Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.

    At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions “benzine”(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.

    Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.

    He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.

    He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.

    He states the book by Joost Niemoller “de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.

    At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.

    At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.

    Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.

    Facebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedinmailby feather
    4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
    Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
    He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
    – This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

    niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
    Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would’ve been fired by an aircraft –that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I’ve seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might’ve missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike –AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who’d know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.

    niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
    Apologies Marcel – I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.

    Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
    “International relations” is not a science.

    Leave a comment

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  12. @Mr. Hack

    There is nothing “gibberish” about this article. The author’s quite clearly states he will deal with the historical context surrounding the downing of MH 17: this he does, if in a somewhat abbreviated form.
    If you have a problem with his history, then argue for it — don’t rely on insults like “little green men”

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AnonFromTN
  13. Tyrion 2 says: • Website

    It seems most likely that it was incompetence by the Ukranians, the Russians or the Russian Ukranian allies.

    I’m sure all parties were worried that it was their own forces that did it at some point. Naturally, they all deny it and blame their opponents. It is quite possible that none of their respective hierarchies know. Whichever air defence operators made the error will certainly not be speaking. Their own side would immediately ruin their lives to prove that there was no centralised direction.

    • Replies: @FB
  14. @Wizard of Oz

    ” DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named. ”
    A weird compelling case.
    They say they know who did it, a Russian officer, name and photograph have been publicised here, but they’ve been unable to ask him why he did it.
    Any normal criminal investigation begins with motive, here at the end the motive still is lacking.
    I am not in the least convinced.
    The motive, except when it was an accident, lies in the west, the Netherlands objected most to sanctions.
    About a possible accident, Ukraine seems to have misused overflying passenger planes as shield for its bombers.
    But, the Ukrainian pilot said to have shot down MH17 committed suicide.
    If he did it, he did what a fighter pilot on a illegal mission would have done, target the cockpit from behind, no possibility of an emergency signal.
    If it was a BUK, it did what a fighter pilot would have done.
    But a BUk flies vertical at a speed of 4500 kmh, a passenger plane at some 900.
    Why did not the BUK hit from beneath ?
    All in all, indeed a very compelling case, as the murder of Kennedy, Sept 11, Diana, etc

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  15. Tom Welsh says:

    “In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims’ relatives. How can it possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two months later?”

    That is extremely puzzling – indeed, inexplicable – if you believe that the object of the exercise is to determine the truth and to see justice done. But it isn’t.

    As long ago as Plato’s “Politeia” (“Republic”), a widely-held view was that “justice is the will of the stronger”, as Thrasybulos argues in that dialogue. As far as I can see, that is still the most popular view, and it is certainly the one supported by Western governments. (The Skripal affair is another prominent case in point: the UK government declared who was guilty without the tedious formalities of investigation, indictment, and trial).

    The real object of the Western elites – as embodied in the statements of their servants in government and the media – is to control public opinion. In this endeavour, precise accuracy, consistency and objective truth are not only unnecessary hindrances – they are positive handicaps. The purpose is to imprint on the dim public consciousness some desired certainties, such as that Russia is aggressive and barbarous, that Mr Putin is a wicked soulless murderer, and so on.

    That is not done by proving a case to courtroom standards. It is done by loudly repeating memorable and emotional slogans, over and over, until everyone vaguely internalizes them and anyone who dares to disagree is attacked for disloyalty.

    Hence the change in value of the Bellingcat assertions referred to by the quoted passage is not only unsurprising – it is exactly what we should expect. Yesterday’s completely unproven allegation is today’s generally known fact.

    • Replies: @Ivar the Legless
  16. FB says:

    Wow…what a tremendous article from a bona fide scholar…

    I have not yet seen anywhere such an accurate and succinct overview of the geopolitical history of the post-1991 era anywhere…

    There is something that is not clear though…the author mentions a ‘land for gas’ deal discussed by Putin and Merkel on the sidelines of the 2014 World Cup in Brazil…

    ‘…Its tentative provisions included normalising the status of Crimea in exchange for a massive economic rehabilitation plan and a gas price rebate for Ukraine…’

    I have no idea what this actually means…an ‘economic rehabilitation plan for whom…?…and what does ‘normalization’ of Crimea’s status mean…recognition of Crimea’s rejoining the Russian Federation…?

    I look forward to reading the author’s book…

  17. Baron says:

    An excellent, thoroughly researched, well articulated narrative. A piece of journalistic investigation worthy of a George Orwell prize, Mr. Kees van der Pijl, thank you.

    On the MH17:

    Why don’t people learn from what has always worked, never failed, in the past?

    The Romans, the Anglo-Saxon legal system’s based on theirs, argued that each and every crime investigation must begin with the key question ‘cui bono’. It’s the time tested pointer to the perpetrator of every crime ever committed, and rightly so. Someone has a motive, if successfully translated into a deed of evil, the motive furnishes an outcome that’s beneficial to that someone, otherwise committing any act of wrongdoing would be only that of madness.

    Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there’s nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It’s either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgement on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.

  18. Still awaiting the contents of the black box, which of course are known to the Russians as well since the rebels recovered it. Revealing that this aspect of the event is still under wraps. And the Ukraine had no business being on any investigative commission here.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  19. Mike P says:
    @mcohen

    Except that parts of the wreckage of MH17 were riddled with regularly sized bullet holes. MH17 was shot at (and probably downed) with the on-board guns of a fighter plane.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @mcohen
  20. Mr. Hack says:
    @animalogic

    The only thing ‘insulting’ is your attempt to try to cast aspersion on the objectively verifiable ‘historic term’ little green men’:

    On 17 April, President Putin admitted for the first time publicly that Russian special forces were involved in the events of Crimea, for the purposes of protecting local people and creating conditions for a referendum…In April 2015, retired Russian Admiral Igor Kasatonov (Игорь Касатонов (ru)) said that the “little green men” were members of Russian Spetsnaz special forces units. According to his information, Russian troop deployment in Crimea included six helicopter landings and three landings of Ilyushin Il-76 with 500 people.[19]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men_(Ukrainian_crisis)

    I have a problem with the author’s sentiments that Ukraine was interested in drawing Russia into the conflict directly. Where’s his proof for such a ridiculous statement?

    • Replies: @annamaria
  21. FB says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    ‘…MH370′s crash has been almost definitively ascribed to the Captain’s planned murder-suicide…’

    Says who…Mickey and Donald…?

    There are only ‘unofficial disappearance theories’…since the wreckage has never been found, and no air transport accident investigation body has ever issued any kind of report with any kind of finding of accident cause…

    The accident remains under investigation…

    Air accident investigation is a serious business that is NOT conducted by the MSM, the FBI, freelance authors, or any other such entities which have been squawking about wild blue yonder ‘theories’…for various reasons known only to themselves [and their bank account]…

    Such investigations are carried out strictly by national air safety agencies [such as NTSB in the US] in strict accordance with Annex 13 of the ICAO, a UN body…

    The Malaysian ministry of transport issued a 586 page preliminary report on the known facts in 2015, which does not even attempt to ascertain any possible cause, since there is simply no evidence to investigate…it simply states all the mundane details of the flight that are known facts…

    The Australian transportation safety board also became involved because the flight may have crashed in waters within the Australian search and rescue zone…the ATSB issued a brief 15 page report in October 2015…

    ‘…An analysis of radar data and subsequent satellite communication (SATCOM) system signalling messages placed the aircraft in the Australian search and rescue zone on an arc in the southern part of the Indian Ocean.

    This arc was considered to be the location close to where the aircraft’s fuel was exhausted…’

    So what little evidence there is [some sat tracking of the flight and a couple of pieces of debris recovered off Mozambique] indicates the aircraft may have flown until it ran out of fuel…a scenario consistent with a hypoxia event…ie the aircraft cabin pressurization malfunctioning, resulting in loss of oxygen and loss of consciousness of all on board…

    Similar such events have happened in the past, including the crash of the bizjet carrying golfer Payne Stewart, which was actually intercepted by Air National Guard F16s as it flew on autopilot, with all on board unconscious, and escorted until it ran out of fuel and crashed…

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  22. prusmc says: • Website
    @Baron

    Is there a Cliff’s Notes version of this post?

  23. FB says:
    @Tyrion 2

    ‘…It seems most likely…’

    ‘…I’m sure…’

    ‘…It is quite possible…’

    Well…there you have it…the ‘man’ with all the answers has spoken…

    Tell you what junior…when we want to hear from the peanut gallery, we’ll let you know, ok…?

    • Agree: Beefcake the Mighty
    • Troll: Tyrion 2
  24. Mr. Hack says:
    @Baron

    Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there’s nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It’s either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgement on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.

    Nobody familiar with the situation thinks that Putin or anybody higher up ordered the tragic downing of the airliner. Neither did any Ukrainian higher ups. It is what it looked like originally. A misstep by some gung ho Russian backed separatists. There was even gloating by some of these unfortunate ‘heroes’ on internet social media taking credit for the downing of a Ukrainian transport plane. Sorry, but this author needs to rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology.

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @Skeptikal
    , @FB
  25. Malaysian flight 17 was actually Malaysian flight 370 and contained the corpses of the passengers of flight 370 and was shot down by two Ukrainian jets and there were witnesses to this act, see ABELDANGER.ORG.

    Malaysian 370 had on board computer specialists on route to China and the plane was taken over via remote control and flown t0 bases and then to the Ukrainian after the passengers had been killed and left on the plane. The plane was then shot down over the Ukraine in an attempt to frame Russia for the crime.

    See Abeldanger.org for details.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  26. Vojkan says:
    @anon

    The impacts on the MH17 cockpit don’t match the impacts of a Buk missile. The impacts on the fuselage don’t match the operational mode of a Buk missile. Maybe it was a Buk missile, it’s just seems highly unlikely.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  27. Anonymous[342] • Disclaimer says:

    Excellent article discussing geopolitics – especially the oil and gas aspects which the major media never does.

    As far as the actual shooting down of MH17, I am of the opinion that a Russian military unit did it. However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war zone, very similar to the US shooting down of Iranian Air 655 in 1988 killing all 290 on-board. Accidents happen.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @FKA Max
  28. @FB

    No doubt I overstated the re as sons for coming to the conclusion that it was a deliberate murder suicide but I am pleased that your careful account gives no encouragement to the conspiracy theorists who think governments or government agencies arranged it.

    • Replies: @skrik
  29. @Vojkan

    The not matching is something you say because of your specialist qualifications and because you have examined the holes made in the cockpit how?

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  30. @Mike P

    I have seen what purported to be the Dutch Safety Board’s exhibition of the reassembled parts and there was no way that the holes could be said to be bullet holes rather than those of shrapnel (of which some, allegedly characteristic of the BUK missile, was found in the cockpit and in the captain’s body). So where does your version come from and how does it stack up against those who say a fighter fired cannon shells not bullets and the Russian version – admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo – of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?

    Also, doesn’t it strike you as very strange
    (a) that nothing was said in the cockpit in any way reflecting the approach of a fighter or a missile fired by it, or its firing at the larger plane’s cockpit?
    (b) that someone could get a Ukrainian fighter pilot to shoot down a civilian aircraft, or that, if some psychopath or drug addicted pilot could have been found to do it, no one else would have known and talked?

    • Replies: @FB
    , @FB
  31. Tulips says:

    I had read that MH17 was ordered by Ukrainian air traffic control to divert from its original flight course, directing it to fly over the war zone. Is that true or not? If true, who ordered that change and what rational have they given?

  32. @Beefcake the Mighty

    Why do people make positive statements about such important matters as the black boxes without checking readily available sources? Surprisingly both black boxes were handed over and sent by the Dutch Safety Board to British laboratories before the end of July 2014. OK my most vivid memory of the evidence is from a recent documentary but, as this version doesn’t even try to make out that Russian backed rebels hid the black boxes, I am happy to accept it. It is interesting that there was apparently just enough difference in the timing of noises from the explosion reaching the four cockpit microphones for the inference to be made independently of physical evidence (like shrapnel in the captain!) that the explosion was above the nose of the plane and to the left of the cockpit.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  33. @Anonymous

    Yes, but is it actually good on the oil and gas aspects? The fact that he is somewhat Marxistish in his approach doesn’t mean he isn’t credible and in fact right, but do you know that he is?

  34. @Baron

    Why do you assume it was a crime I.e. a deliberate act to which the question cui bono might apply?

  35. @jilles dykstra

    Have you been drinking? I am appalled that you, a Dutchman, hasn’t a clue about the difference between the Dutch Safety Board’s technical investigation and the separate criminal one of which you seem to be only vaguely aware.

  36. @jilles dykstra

    As I said: have you been drinking? You have confused MH17 with MH 370. Spare us your garbage.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  37. The article says very little about the shooting of the plane and seems to be just a long-winded way of whitewashing Vladimir Putin. The convoluted conspiracy theory the author proposes is wholly lacking in credibility. I was no great admirer of the late Alexander Cockburn but he put forward very good criteria for testing the credibility of a conspiracy theory. First, the “plot” mustn’t be too complicated: something always goes wrong. Secondly, there mustn’t be too many people who have to be in the know: someone always blabs. The author’s conspiracy theory fails both tests. Such a complicated scenario being played out over so many years, with so many actors involved, is just not credible.
    The most likely scenario is a screw-up. We’ve all seen these supposed “rebels”. They look like they stepped straight out of a US TV documentary on white supremacist militias. They’re probably street thugs mainly brought in from Russian but with a few local recruits. They seem to have been leavened either by Russian special forces or military contractors or both. The trained soldiers are trying to show the “rednecks” how to operate the missile system, one of the latter presses the wrong button, a rocket is fired and the airliner just happens to be passing overhead at the wrong moment. Simple answers are usually the best! That, of course, doesn’t suit Putin’s American supporters, so convoluted conspiracy theories have to be come up with.

    • Troll: Beefcake the Mighty
    • Replies: @Herald
    , @Meimou
  38. Vojkan says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Maybe if you did some research, widely available on the Internet, you.would.know how a Buk operates. It just wouldnt fit yout narrative you hasbara troll. So in lack of arguments, you resort to ad hominem. The reality is you are full of bullshit. The other reality is that contrary to armchair warriors of yous species, who get their knowledge from.Wikipedia, I have actually worked on military peojects.

    • Agree: Mike P
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  39. skrik says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    gives no encouragement to the conspiracy theorists who think governments or government agencies arranged it

    Ma-a-ate. Who [the hell] else? Look above, to the discussion of cui bono. That’s only a part of this whole:

    At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui bono?

    The destruction of both MH370 and MH17 could *only* have been carried out by ‘persons unknown,’ enabled if not actually employed by one or more [covert] govt. agencies. Simply nobody else has either means or motive. ‘Losing’ one plane may have been ‘unfortunate,’ but losing both looks like ‘extreme carelessness’ – or an outright conspiracy = not accidents. Yes, there was a case, of a co-pilot deliberately crashing a passenger jet, but that was ‘the exception that proves the rule?’ The headline article ‘hints’ at some black-hats who are known to perpetrate vicious, murdering atrocities [try the West's aggression against Iraq, Libya, Syria almost, Iran 'in the queue;' millions murdered, whole countries destroyed]. Here’s a good old Aussie word: Form. And the so-far ‘finest’ form was demonstrated at 9/11, closely followed by USS Liberty, not to mention JFK etc.. Q: Why do you *again* try to defend the worst of the worst? They are not *my* friends, why ‘suck up’ to them as yours?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  40. @animalogic

    Ukies do have a problem with history. Their predecessors, Bandera and Shukhevych, sided with Hitler, the loser of WWII. So, this problem cannot be solved for them, as they don’t have time machine to change history. They can still spew venom, though, trying to compensate for their incurable inferiority complex.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  41. FB says:

    ‘…There was even gloating by some of these unfortunate ‘heroes’ on internet social media taking credit for the downing of a Ukrainian transport plane…’

    That’s nonsense…

    A much publicized four minute video recorded by the Donbas fighters arriving at the scene of the downed aircraft was obtained by the Murdoch-owned News Corp…it can be viewed here…

    The video shows men in fatigues arriving on the scene, as well as a fire truck parked nearby and one person dousing the flames with a fire hose…the speaking voice recorded is mainly that of one man who seems to be in charge, with a couple of other background voices also heard…

    The translation of what is said is provided in English subtitles…but here’s the curious part…the text of the accompanying news story also gives a supposedly transcribed text of what is heard in the video …curiously, what is contained in this ‘transcript’ is wildly at odds with what is seen on the video subtitles…

    Anyone can view this and verify this for themselves…here is part of the supposed ‘transcript’ given in the article…

    “This is another plane, I think,” says one person in the background of the 17-minute footage shot by one of the men in the party.

    “It’s the fighter,” says another.

    An unidentified soldier steps into the scene and points.

    “There, part of engine.”

    “Yes, I think so …

    “Yes, it’s the Sukhoi.”

    None of this is seen in the subtitles…the words ‘fighter’ and ‘Sukhoi’ are never uttered…this can be ascertained even without relying on the subtitles, since the word ‘Sukhoi’ [pronounced 'soohoy' in Russian] would be clearly distinguishable…

    Also the Russian word for ‘fighter’ which is ‘iztrebitelj’…a quite distinct sounding word that is never heard, nor does it appear in the subtitles at any time…

    Ie we have here a ‘news report’ that is completely contradicting the very video it is showing us…

    That raises a huge red flag for anyone ‘consuming’ such ‘news’…

    Why is the text of the story inventing things that are NOT seen on the video subtitles…?

    Another story from the same outlet that ran the same day, July 17, 2015…and showing the same video with the same subtitles is shown here…

    Again…more fakery…including the same bogus ‘transcript’ supposedly containing the word ‘Sukhoi’…which is NEVER seen on video subtitles, nor heard in the video sound itself…

    What is seen on the subtitles is that the man in charge states that it appears to be a civilian airplane, that it is Malaysian, and this…

    ‘…Who gave them the corridor [right to fly through this area]…?’

    Yet, this is not mentioned in the text of either of these two ‘stories’…but of course would actually end up being a significant part of the recommendations of the Final Report of the Dutch Safety Board which stated this…

    ‘…The DSB recommended that states involved in armed conflicts should exercise more caution when evaluating their airspace, and operators should more thoroughly assess the risks when selecting routes over conflict areas…’

    The ‘state’ involved here being Ukraine, whose air traffic control routed the plane through the area…

    Note that this is from the official ICAO-based accident investigation…not to be confused with the JIT, which has nothing to do with ICAO or any aviation authority, but is simply an ad-hoc ‘investigative’ body put together to investigate any criminal aspects [ie to assign blame]…[which the DSB stated was not in its investigative purview, as per ICAO Annex 13 rules]…

    So we are presented here with obvious lying from News Corp…the sensationalist claims in the text accompanying the video are obvious inventions…something that should come as little surprise to those who no longer trust the MSM…

    There are many more examples of the fakery here…the subtitles of the man’s voice recorded giving orders is shown telling the other men to find the black boxes…this too is never mentioned in the fake ‘story’ text accompanying the video…instead the story focuses on the men’s actions of searching through some of the bags littering the ground, even implying that they were trying to scavenge valuables…

    Meanwhile the video and subtitles clearly show that these men are trying to find out the facts of what happened…such as the nationalities of those on board…not surprising as they were clearly acting in the role of first responders, as can bee seen by the fire truck and dousing of flames…also never mentioned…

    Basically what we see is complete and utter hogwash…it is simply amazing that fools among the general public can be taken in so easily…

  42. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    blah, blah, blah…what does anything that you’ve just stated have to do with the topic at hand? :-(

  43. The qui bono aspect is always interesting. Ukraine would have something to gain. Rebels nothing. Rebel factions having taken one for loot and screwing up is definitely a possibility, if they possess Buk systems. But I do not buy, the option that Putin “ordered” the shoot down, Putin is not stupid.
    Which can indeed be postulated about Poroschenko.

  44. I am not sure that it makes sense to connect MH370 with MH17. Not because Western secret services are incapable of this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved, and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely, as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up. They still have trouble covering up the murder of Seth Rich, who gave the evidence of DNC criminal activity to Assange. BTW, that “investigation” already lasts for two years, with no end in sight. Quite natural when the fox “investigates” its own depredations in the hen house.

    However, numerous well-known facts directly contradict the “official” narrative pushed by the State Department and its lackeys, including the scum posing as government in Kiev.

    1. This “investigation” is being dragged on for four years, i.e., it is a lot longer than any investigation in airline history where the remains of the airplane were recovered. Judging by its length and meager results, this “investigation” is simply a cover-up, pretty clumsy at that.

    2. If one discards the “evidence” from social media, which any self-respecting court of law would through away as hearsay, there is virtually nothing left. Besides, those who fund “Bellingcat” are surely involved in the crime and subsequent spin.

    3. Exploding Buk missile generates thousands of metal fragments that produce very characteristic numerous holes in the fuselage. These were not found, and very few ostensibly Buk fragments presented by JIT are a ridiculous number, not to mention that legally necessary chain of custody was not observed.

    4. Buk missile leaves long-lasting smoke trail in the sky visible for many miles. I am not talking about contrails, I am talking about a huge pillar of black smoke. Not a single witness reported seeing that. Why?

    5. Curiously, Ukraine vehemently denied having any Buks (this is Soviet weapon), then displayed a few at the military parade. WTF?

    6. Satellite pictures that Kerry promised even before the debris cooled down were never presented in four years. Why?

    7. Nobody bothered to explain a round hole in pilot’s cabin, visible on many photos, that looks exactly like a hole that would be left by the round from SU cannon. Also, the issue of the second plane, actually first raised by witnesses in BBC report, was completely ignored. BBC video was removed from their site. Why?

    8. Malaysia did not subscribe to the obviously false politically motivated recent “conclusion” of JIT. Even Belgium decided not to disgrace itself by supporting this “conclusion”. Curious, no?

    Yet all international airlines made their conclusions long time ago: they fly over Russia, but avoid Ukrainian airspace, like the airspace of North Korea. They won’t explain their actions, though, as they don’t want to anger very influential forces pushing a different narrative.

    To summarize, Roman dictum “cui bono” is the best clue we have. It clearly points at the perpetrators.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    , @edNels
  45. FB says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    You’re confusing things here…

    The claim of cannon fire markings on the cockpit section of the fuselage was made by retired German pilot Peter Haisenko who simply viewed photos of the wreckage found online and noticed the entry and exit holes that seemed to suggest cannon fire…[incidentally the same kind of 'analysis' we have seen from amateur 'investigators' Bellingcat]…

    The REAL issue is the fact that the DSB, which concluded that it was a Buk missile that hit the plane, seems to have made a fatal error in terms of the missile and warhead type…which do not match, according to the Buk manufacturer Almaz Antey…

    Specifically…the DSB says the characteristic ‘bowtie’ shrapnel holes observed in the recovered fuselage wreckage are characteristic of the 9N314M warhead…

    They further conclude that this warhead can be fitted to both the older generation missile, type 9M38..AND the newer 9M38M1…

    Almaz Antey says this is not the case and that ONLY the M1 variant of the missile can be fitted with the ‘bowtie’ warhead…

    Here is the DSB final report of October 2015…

    On page 132 we have this…

    ‘…it is noted that the shapes of the pre-formed fragments found in the wreckage and the bodies of the crew members in the cockpit, bow-tie and cubes, are only found in the 9N314M warhead (see figure 56). The 9N314M warhead can be fitted to the 9M38M1 missile…’

    There is the problem right there…The DSB also states that the the 9N314M warhead is ‘normally’ fitted to the 9M38M1 missile…but ‘but is known to be also installed on the 9M38′…

    The left side shows the comments by Almaz Antey…the right shows the response of the DSB…which acknowledges in their report that they got their info from an interesting source…page 132…

    ‘…According to the Kyiv Institute for Forensic Expertise of the Ministry of Justice, both the 9M38 and 9M38M1 missiles can carry the 9N314M warhead…’

    So we have here the situation that a Ukraine political source is telling the DSB information that contradicts what the weapons manufacturer claims…and in this dilemma, the DSB takes the word of the Ukraine political source…

    And there is also the further possibility that the 9M38 missile which never came with the bowtie warhead from the factory, could in fact be retrofitted with such, for example by the Ukraine military industry…

    In any case, this does not look good for the DSB, which is unfortunate for an aviation agency that is supposed to be ‘professional’ as these agencies typically are…

    And we further note that that the highest sources from the Russian Federation have stated that the missile identified by the DSB has been out of service in the RF armed forces for years…having been long ago replaced by updated versions…

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  46. Respect says:

    I would not trust neither the dutchies nor the ukrobanderisti in anything .

  47. @AnonFromTN

    The same nonsense that too many would be implicated in Sept 11.
    In this case, my estimate, twenty

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Skeptikal
  48. @Wizard of Oz

    No confusion whatsoever.
    MH17 made possible the sanctions, MH370 killed two groups of Chinese technicians on making planes invisible to radar;
    MH17 was destroyed in mid air, why and how, we do not know, MH370 flew direction Antarctica until fuel ran out.
    My theory on MH370, control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, as has been possible with modern planes since a short time before Sept 11.
    On Sept 11, why the, in my opinion original plan to use the four planes for attacks failed, I do not know, we never will know.
    Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  49. @Tulips

    It was ordered to fly lower.
    This may confirm the theory that Ukraine abused the plane as shield for a bomber, and it may confirm that an Ukrainian fighter jet shot it down.
    Ukrainian fighters have difficulty in flying at the normal height of a passenger plane
    As far as I know no explanation was ever given

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  50. FB says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    ‘…the Russian version – admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo – of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?..’

    Again you are garbling known facts…there was never any Russian ‘satellite photo’…it was in fact Russian ATC radar that identified the second aircraft flying in the area at the time…

    The curious part here is that the Russians gave the radar data to the Dutch…but curiously it was deemed ‘not usable’ due to ‘formatting issues’…apparently this has something to do with the supposed incompatibility of Russian radar data printouts to what is used in the West…which, for someone well versed in these matters, frankly sounds preposterous…

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  51. Respect says:

    ukraina , ukraruina , ukraruin, is the most miserable dark hole of europe . ukraruina ruined russia , stole russia `s gas and oil , sucked russia`s blood and betrayed russia when she smelled that she could steal even more gas and oil , suck even more blood, from the UE , from western europe and from the sons of Nuland .

    ucraruina has already ruined the EU as well , and will ruin the usa . ukraina`s greed and lack of morals , of inteligence , is like a cancer that has spread to all the ” east ” and ” west ” .

    poor ukraruins , poor russians and poor euroyankees .

  52. @jilles dykstra

    You may be right, for all I know. I am just looking for the simplest solution possible. As far as I can tell, this means a genuine MH17 flight and CIA-designed plot ham-handedly executed by habitually inept Ukies.

  53. Herald says:
    @Michael Kenny

    What a load of half-baked twaddle. Stick with CNN and do us all a favour.

    • Replies: @FB
  54. edNels says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Well I for one am getting sick of so much intrigue about all these crazy events that are so gaddammed complicated and mysterious and nobody knows who… dun it! never!

    But, when you say this,

    [… this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved, and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely, as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up.]

    Are you sure?
    __________________

    It would be nice if somewhere in the field of concern or blogosphere or what ever, an upright knowledgeable individual would provide details about the differences between the projectiles that come from aircraft on board cannons, and those that would be used on missiles that explode in near proximity to their targets. (verses those that heat seek up into the exhaust pipes… )

    The holes might be different between these two or more different delivery systems.

    Everybody has seen the photos of holes in the fuselage around the cabin area that suggest entry and exit, but it should be commonly enough known more precisely and what is the difference in the size, shape, etc. to extrapolate from the photos of holes in the fuselage if it is 50/or cal. or missile born shrapnel or what. It would be ok if stated that there isn’t any appreciable difference discernible too.

    It is out there hanging whether or not the holes are good evidence or not, because nobody has further developed that part of it… far as I have seen.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @AnonFromTN
  55. FB says:
    @Herald

    Herald…buddy…everyone knows that the troll ‘Michael Kenny’ was born without a brain…that’s why everybody ignores him…

  56. FB says:
    @edNels

    Ed…there is nothing we can ‘analyze’ from a distance…that would put us in the same category as the ridiculous ‘Bellingcat’…

    The fact of the matter is that the fuselage wreckage was handed over by the Donbas rebels to the West…which they probably should not have done…considering that they end up getting blamed by use of that same evidence which was in their hands…

    The second issue is that there are TWO separate and very different investigations…the first was the accident investigation by the DSB, which is done in accordance with ICAO rules and we would presume it is professional…you will note that they did not try to establish who fired the shot [or shots]…

    That is what the ICAO rules state…the point of these investigations is to find out WHAT happened and to make recommendations so that this does not happen in the future…

    The second JIT investigation is clearly a politicized joke…actually citing Bellingcat social media ‘pictures’ and such as ‘evidence’…

    There is nothing that can be done about that…it is clearly a kangaroo court…

    However, the more one examines the DSB investigation, the more one is alarmed there too…I have already mentioned here in some detail some of the discrepancies…in all honesty, I would say that it is NOT in fact established to my satisfaction in that DSB report that the findings are whaat they say they are…

    But again, there is no point in trying to do an Eliott Higgins here…to really find out what hit that plane we cannot go on pictures alone…those actual pieces need to be expertly examined…

  57. @edNels

    I am not sure how many “accidental” deaths or “murders in the course of botched robbery” (alleged in the case of Seth Rich) can be covered up.

    I am not a pro in missiles, either. All I know is that THREE allegedly Buk shrapnel pieces were found in the bodies of pilots, and none anywhere else. Exploding Buk 9N314M warhead (alleged by the Dutch investigators) disperses almost 8 thousand shrapnel pieces, so there should have been hundreds, if not thousands, found in the wreckage and the bodies of passengers. They were not. Buk manufacturer Almaz-Antei has stated several times in public that the 9N314M warhead cannot be operated from the 9M38 missile series: the two cannot be connected electronically. Then again, Almaz-Antei might be lying, just like JIT. I’d love to hear from a pro not paid by either side.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  58. republic says:

    In July 2014 the place that I would go to find interesting information on that Malaysian flight was Zero Hedge.

    On July 17, 2014 the following article appeared in ZH with hundreds of comments.

    Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?

    The article is still available on line, but Zero Hedge has purged all the comments. It also seems that all ZH articles older than a few months are purged of their comments.

    I wonder why this purge is taking place?

    Glad that UR does not follow a similar practice.

    • Replies: @kgbgb
  59. Respect says:

    https://www.veteranstoday.com/2018/07/09/who-was-stepan-bandera/

    Those guys blew up the plain , and are trying to blow up everything

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  60. @Respect

    These guys destroyed the country they claim to love. Too bad lots of innocent Ukrainians suffered and will suffer for the foreseeable future.

  61. @Wizard of Oz

    As soon as I saw this topic I knew the Whiz would be here with his usual avalanche of pretentious bullshit. And sure enough, like a fungus in a jock strap that hasn’t been washed in three weeks, he’s proliferating.

    To his many non-skills can be added lack of reading comprehension, since I specified the *contents* of the black boxes. The Russians could safely turn them over since they knew the Americans could not lie about what was on them. So as usual, nothing you say here is of any consequence. But thanks is due for being relatively brief for once.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  62. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war zone,…

    This is exactly my conclusion.

    I blame the people who didn’t close off or avoid that airspace earlier.

    Many airlines have avoided Ukrainian airspace for months

    British Airways, Qantas and Cathay Pacific among those who have taken detours around area where MH17 was brought down

    As air traffic control authorities banned all aircraft from flying through eastern Ukrainian airspace – which is likely to increase flight costs and journey times – it has emerged that several airlines had already chosen to avoid the area.

    A spokesman for Qantas said the Australian flag carrier had not used the route for months. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said it had been taking a detour for “quite some time”. British Airways, Korean Air Lines, Air Berlin, Asiana Airlines and Taiwan’s China Airlines had also been avoiding the east Ukraine route – which is the most commonly used between Europe and Asia – for months. British Airways declined to comment on its previous flight routes.
    [...]
    She said airlines’ costs dropped considerably when Nato forces secured Afghanistan, as they had previously taken big detours to avoid the area. “As missile systems develop, and the Chinese and Russians sell them around the world, this problem is not going to go away,” Quintana said.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/airlines-avoid-ukraine-airspace-mh17

    FAA issues warning for U.S. planes to avoid flights over Ukraine

    This is the best video on the MH-17 incident, in my opinion. The Buk anti-aircraft missile system/launcher was brought into the area from Russia because Ukrainian planes had been bombing residential/civilian buildings in the area. The Ukrainian bombers had also used civilian airliners as cover and flown in their trails according to Russian separatists:

    Return to the MH17 Crash Site: Russian Roulette (Dispatch 87)

    I don’t know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:

    Flight MH17: Ukraine releases video of ‘Buk missile unit’

    BREAKING – MH17 Russian BUK launcher in Makiivka Ukraine video July 17 2014

    MH17 was downed by Russian BUK. Special Investigation. Part 2

    • Replies: @skrik
  63. @Beefcake the Mighty

    Nice try but your revealing quantity of clumsy persiflage draws attention to your error which blatant chutzpah couldn’t cover. You said “Still awaiting the contents of the [sic] black box” but
    (a) there are two black boxes (for data and for voice), and
    (b) the contents are well known.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  64. @jilles dykstra

    Why do you say it was ordered to “fly lower”. My understanding is that the pilots sought permission to fly higher to improve the economics of the flight but were refused because of the number of other planes in the same air traffic control area. You seem to be unaware that most airlines were still overflying East Ukraine and that hundreds did that day.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @jilles dykstra
  65. @Wizard of Oz

    You really are an idiot. (A) is just pedantry (typical) and (B) is just deception, as the point is, known to whom?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  66. FB says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    ‘…You seem to be unaware that most airlines were still overflying East Ukraine and that hundreds did that day…’

    Why do you insist on talking about things of which you obviously know nothing…?

    Read the DSB report…I already gave a link to the 279 page document…

    ‘…Eight other operators already stopped flying over the eastern part of Ukraine in March and April, 2014…’

    There were a number of NOTAMs [notices to airmen] issued by several national aviation authorities for this …including from Ukraine, Russia, the US and others…

    The DSB investigators gathered all data on flights through the Dnipopetrovsk FIR [flight information region] from Eurocontrol, the ATC authority for Europe…

    However the Dnipo FIR covers a very large area encompassing a number of airways…MH17 was flying on L980…right over the conflict zone…they didn’t have to do this…

    The airline operator chooses the flight plan and they do this for the most direct route to save fuel [called a great circle route because the earth is round]…but deviations from the route are standard…due to any number of circumstances…the fact that there were notams for months about the fighting in this particular area did cause eight out of 16 operators interviewed by the DSB to stop flying there…

    Malaysian chose not to…and thus the resulting recommendation in the DSB for operators to be more careful about flying through conflict areas…

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  67. Karl says:
    @Biff

    5 Biff > MH370 is most likely in Diego Garcia. Look there.

    before you go there, practice your Tagalog

    • Replies: @Biff
  68. @Tulips

    Not only lower but also further North, by a few hundred kilometres. A Spanish ATC working at Kiev, named Carlos, went public immediately saying Ukraine did it.

    Eye witness were filmed immediately afterwards stating that there was a small warplane underneath MH17 just prior to it turning and then going down. I couldn’t understand what they were saying (there were subtitles) but their non-verbal cues suggested that they were being entirely truthful.

    • Replies: @republic
    , @Anon
    , @kgbgb
  69. Biff says:
    @Karl

    Tagalog is spoken in the Philippines which is located in the Pacific Ocean. Diego Garcia is located in the Indian Ocean. Its original inhabitants(whatever they speak) were shipped to Africa by the British. It is now an English speaking area, host to a large American military base.

    http://johnpilger.com/videos/stealing-a-nation

  70. @FB

    My internet problems spare you a longer reply. While you seem to have done a bit of homework I think you are trying too hard – not a good look if one doesn’t want to appear as a partisan with a dodgy case to make**. For instance it is pretty rich to accuse me of writing of things U know nothing about when you proceed to make errors of both logic and fact on an important isssue.

    Yes some airlines were already avoiding the airspace, even above 32,000 feet above Eastern Ukraine. So what? The point was that there were many that were not and that was a reason for not allowing MH17 to fly higher. (There’s your logical error nailed in case I need to spell it out).

    As to the numbers of airliners flying over that war zone on that day, doesn’t the DSB report you cite give the figures? Here is one link where you will find the number for the day was 160!

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28357880

    If you want to check it also gives a link to the Planefinder site.

    ** I have no dog in the fight and no case to make because I want it to be true. Consider me as merely thinking up some of the questions counsel might put to his own expert witnesses to make sure they are not going to be shot down under cross examination. For fun :-)

    • Replies: @FB
  71. @Beefcake the Mighty

    Why do you say “the [sic] black box” when you claim to know that there are two different ones that are both important?

    The contents are known to the DSB investigators and the British technicians who first dealt with getting the recorded material from the boxes. Have you not read the DSB report?

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  72. @Wizard of Oz

    It was reported here that the plane was ordered to fly lower.

    • Replies: @skrik
    , @Wizard of Oz
  73. @AnonFromTN

    Here in the Netherlands immediately Russia was blamed.
    The day before th disaster we resisted sanctions, our export to Russia, the day after sanctions were allowed.
    The question what interest Russia could have had in shooting down an airliner has never been asked, not even now.
    As to an accident, very accidental that a plane from Schiphol with a few hundred Dutch was shot down.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  74. @FB

    Nothing to do with radar. I’m sorry if you think I should be talking about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking about.

    It’s past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which you don’t seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn’t have anything to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the pot.

    Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some cumulative relevance.

    1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie

    2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped down one’s throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with

    3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious weapons – in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.

    4. Just added in… It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?

    So what’s the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most probable?

    I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev research institute as “political” is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.

    FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don’t know whether that has any legs.

    • Replies: @Bierstiefel
    , @skrik
    , @FB
    , @annamaria
  75. @FB

    OMG I should have been saluting. You represent here “the highest sources from the Russian Federation”.

    I have answered this above.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  76. @Vojkan

    I too have worked on military projects but, unlike you, I don’t expect to have my expertise accepted because I say I have learned things from the Internet that I can’t even specify and lay open for critical appraisal.

    • Replies: @Vojkan
    , @NoseytheDuke
  77. @skrik

    I am not in the business of defending any one theory or team. I like attacking bad arguments.

    • Replies: @Biff
  78. mcohen says:
    @Mike P

    Still makes no difference.both planes were downed with civilians on board.imho Malaysia provides the brains and leadership to the global islamic resistance which is being fought on many different levels.

  79. skrik says:
    @FKA Max

    I don’t know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:

    If you are at all amenable to suggestions, try this one: Get a grip. Putting any ‘faith’ in bellingcat/Aus-60mins rubbish is exactly the same as ‘getting religion;’ you are setting out to believe in scurrilous allegations based on zero [reputable, verifiable = substantiable] facts. IF the empire had such a reputable, verifiable = substantiable ‘smoking gun’ THEN we’d all have seen it and the silly, *criminal* MH17 kerfuffle would have been stopped by that smoking gun.

    This all happened a long time ago now, and ‘back then’ it was well-examined in the ‘alternative media’ = blogs, try this from here:

    PeterS
    October 26, 2014 at 7:26 pm
    The problem with any captured BUK is that it must be stolen even with the commander. Because the sharp/fire shot from BUK is unable, if there is not workoing part “Я свой самолет” JSS, identification of friend – enemy plane. Codes are changing every few days and only BUK, witch is going in combat operation get this codes (only commander knows the codes). The crew without codes (working identification part) can only scan and aim, but not shot.
    Ukrainian air defense has disabled sharp/fire shooting since they shot down the Tupolev Tu 154M in 2001. The commander also on training shots is banned to issue codes. That was the question on the 156th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment of the Ukrainian Air Force, if they accidentaly had not erred.
    About BUK captured from any base, Ukrainians claimed that they have everything under control and on base remained only disfunction machines. I only saw pictures of separatists with charging vehicle, not with the vehicle TELAR.
    Any claim about shooting needs also explanation about codes.

    Note the bold bits in the quote: IF that commenter is correct THEN who provided the “shot” code? Note that the Q is applicable to any/all BUKs, either in or out of Ukie or ‘rebel’ control, and the next Q is: What Russian idiot would hand the empire the gun to be used to against him/herself? Cui bono requires a reasonable response.

    As I say, get a grip. We – those with properly functioning intellects – know which components on the world stage are capable of such horrendous, wicked atrocities as the MH17 shoot-down, here is some alphabet-soup: FUKUSIL+Ukr; feel free to select any/all letters which fit. rgds

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  80. @Wizard of Oz

    I’m only going to pick on one of your comments:

    “Radar is able to detect two different objects.”

    Depends on what type of radar you are talking about. ATC radar, which is essentially two-dimensional and heavily dependent on transponder data from the aircraft, particularly the altitude encoded in that signal, would paint the return signal and data of the transponder of MH-17, but a primary return from another aircraft at roughly the same spot on the map, if a primary return was received at all, would be lost in the clutter and no altitude data would be available.

    I recall reading a comment that Kiev claimed that ATC radar was turned off at the time. I also recall a claim that ATC voice data recordings were sequestered and never made available to the public. If true, these claims would suggest guilty minds at work, either covering up a blunder or covering up a false flag.

    I think the author’s title is a bit disingenuous: He could have called this, “False Flag or Accident: Why Western Powers had the Means, Motive and Opportunity to Capitalise on the MH-17 Tragedy.”

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  81. Biff says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I like attacking bad arguments.

    Give yourself a spanking.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  82. Vojkan says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Oh really? Then you should know that a Buk doesn’t strike at the cockpit but rather sprays the fuselage from above. You should also know that the holes in the cockpit don’t match shrapnel made of beryllium, the holes are too big and thtt the distribution of the holes doesn’t match either. You are just a pathetic ukranian or hasbara or polish troll with a pathological hatred for anything Russian. Wizard of bullshit.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  83. skrik says:
    @jilles dykstra

    “MH17 filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000 feet throughout Ukrainian airspace. This is close to the ‘optimum’ altitude,” the airline said.
    “However, an aircraft’s altitude in flight is determined by air traffic control on the ground. Upon entering Ukrainian airspace, MH17 was instructed by Ukrainian air traffic control to fly at 33,000 feet.”

    (https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/mh17-requested-higher-flight-altitude-from-ukranian-air-traffic-control-malaysia-airlines-30442304.html ] rgds

  84. @jilles dykstra

    We may have crossed wires. I was referring to the alleged evidence from the cockpit voice recorder, no doubt confirmed from air traffic control recordings that the pilots made a request to be allowed to increase altitude while in flight but that it was denied. On any view the fact that there were about 160 other flights in the area for air traffic control to deal with doesn’t leave much reason to treat air traffic control as being involved in something sinister. I am not surprised that anyone taking just a casual interest in MH17 should be ignorant of the busyness of traffic above 32,000 ft that day, but it is an important detail.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  85. @Wizard of Oz

    Where is this photo presented as evidence by the Russians?

    Could you provide a link?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  86. @The Alarmist

    You appear as to be quoting something you think I said, but I don’t recognize it as my words.

    Still your last paragraph points to something Russia’s/Putin’s enemies must have relished. That is Russia simply not having the free wheeling capitalist world’s skills at spin when confronted with embarrassment from a tragic accident.

  87. @Biff

    Oh I do that too. But that’s another guilty pleasure :-)

    • Troll: Rurik
  88. @Vojkan

    You may be just one of the UR threadsters who is , metaphorically, in love with your own voice, but you show such indifference to either fact or audience that your research hasn’t even turned up the fact that I am a Hindi speaking beryllium fabrication specialist who has had to have my comments composed by AI and translated and edited by a Hindi speaking Welshman.

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  89. skrik says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    1. Der.

    2. No; your projection. The ones perpetrating the outrage would most likely [premeditation] have their story ‘straight;’ in your own words, Russia probably went something like: ‘OMG! What animals would do such a thing!’

    3. No; Russia is not playing ‘the great game’ that FUKUSIL oh so obviously are.

    4.

    An interesting bit is the nicely circular, both entry and exit, ‘wounds.’ Of course, no ‘chain of custody’ exists, and the piece could have been physically ‘post processed.’ The task of evaluation belongs to an honest, properly constituted enquiry. Haw, again; have you not heard: Don’t start an inquiry you can’t control? Lesson learned, latest with Warren et al..

    FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don’t know whether that has any legs.

    Haw the last for now; were you paid for that, or just made it up out of ‘whole cloth?’

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  90. Meimou says:
    @Michael Kenny

    Alexander Cockburn but he put forward very good criteria for testing the credibility of a conspiracy theory. First, the “plot” mustn’t be too complicated: something always goes wrong. Secondly, there mustn’t be too many people who have to be in the know: someone always blabs. The author’s conspiracy theory fails both tests. Such a complicated scenario being played out over so many years, with so many actors involved, is just not credible.

    Of course this Cockburn calls facts that contradict the official narritive “conspiracy theory” so we are off to a bad start.

    1. How do you Parsons know that “some one always blabs?” Do you have evidence for it? Any reason why that would be? Of the % of black operations executed how many people involved blabed? You should know right? People can’t keep secrets after all.

    2. How do you know how many actors need to need to be involved? Are you a black operator?

    3. You claim such complicated scenario being played out over the years just isn’t credible, and it isn’t…to a debunker, a pseudoskeptic, a Parson anything contradicting the ON isn’t credible, and anything supporting the ON is.

  91. Vojkan says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    You don’t say. And I thought you were a mythomaniac.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  92. @Vojkan

    He’s the intellectual equivalent of a colostomy bag.

    • Replies: @JerseyJeffersonian
  93. Rurik says:

    there is zero doubt that Ukraine shot the plane down, because there’s *obvious* evidence of machine gun bullet holes aimed directly at the cockpit, not to mention tones of other evidence (or lack of, like the missing BUK missile trail)

    what’s amazing about all of this is the ability of the Fiend to cover all the evidence up, and include the main suspect: Ukraine – in the “investigation” with veto authority over any conclusions.

    When you control a country’s central bank, and therefor its access to credit, you control the government (and media and institutions) in absolute terms.

    The quislings in Kyiv are corrupt and treasonous agents of the Zio-Fiend and nothing more.

    Ironic that they’re a bunch of neo-Nazis taking orders from Jewish banksters.

    • Replies: @JerseyJeffersonian
  94. republic says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    In many of these events the first eye witnesses reports of the situation proves true in retrospect, such as in 9/11. In regard to MH-17 there were eye witnesses who reported seeing a small plane like a fighter jet of the SU-25 type near the MH-17 at the time of the crash.

    My working hypothesis of the MH17 is that flight controllers in Kiev, ordered the plane to fly at a lower altitude and then diverted it over the war zone. The reason for the order of the lower altitude was to let the SU-25 get into range as the ceiling of the SU-25 was below the normal cruising altitude of MH-17.
    MH-17 was probably hit by some type of missile and then the SU-25 pilot fired machine gun bullets into the pilot compartment. Many aircraft specialists at the time showed proof of these bullet holes near the pilot compartment. Some reports say that no autopsies were performed on the two pilots.
    There was some early reports of a Spanish flight controller in Kiev who was ordered by senior officials to divert the plane over the war zone.
    I have made it a practice to download early pieces of information in these situations because many early reports which conflict with the official versions are later cleaned or scrubbed from the net.

  95. @Wizard of Oz

    There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that the destruction of MH17 in midair was something sinister.
    No motive was ever give for either rebels or Russia.
    But continuous vague accusations against Russia.
    It may have been an accident, caused by Ukraine, using passenger planes as shield against BUK’s aimed at Ukrainian bombers, it may be that an Ukrainian fighter pilot shot down the plane.
    In both cases a lower flying altitude makes sense.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  96. @jilles dykstra

    You said it. Bringing to heel the Netherlands and a few other reluctant allies was one of the points of this operation. From this even a monkey can figure out who designed this op. Unfortunately for the planners, it was executed by extremely inept lackeys, so that instead of unassailable false flag they got a mess lasting for four years already.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  97. @Bierstiefel

    I couldn’t remember where I had seen it so I Googled for “debunked mh17 photo” and came up with a ot of sites including this one

    https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-this-photo-shows-a-ukraine-mig-29-shot-down-mh17.t5107/

    which seems to reproduce what I remember, and

    https://www.smh.com.au/world/sensational-russian-photo-of-mh17-being-shot-debunked-by-citizen-journalist-group-20141115-11nbqs.html

    • Replies: @FB
    , @skrik
  98. @skrik

    Very interesting that you post a photograph which seems to be evidence of the exact opposite of what you seem to contend. Not a round hole in sight but plenty of evidence of shrapnel.

  99. @jilles dykstra

    Does your extensive reading get in the way of common sense thinking? You feature the need for motive as if it was important. Why isn’t accidental shooting down of a civil aircraft with a BUK missile an explanation which gets over any need for finding a motive to commit – other than for non state terrorists – an unprecedented act of savagery which, btw, no no state would want to inflict on the airline and tourist industries.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  100. @AnonFromTN

    “Simple(st) solution”!!! How about a truly simple solution. Russia had done – surely for certain – what America did in Syria and armed anti-government rebels plus supplies some volunteers/mercenaries/regulars on leave and an accident happened?

    You seem to have brought a conspiratorial cast of mind to good old straightforward Tennessee.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  101. @AnonFromTN

    And again blowing hard on matters way out of your area of expertise (and that of nearly all commenters). What do you really know about US relations with the Netherlands or how they are conducted?

  102. denk says:

    How it all began….

    2005, as per the Guardian…
    ‘Britain’s chief diplomat in Malaysia stormed out of a human rights’ conference today after the UK and US were condemned as “state terrorists” by the country’s retired prime minister, Mahathir Mohamad,…’

    2008
    Mahathir accused Soros of attacking the Malaysian currencies.

    2011
    Tribunal in KL indicted fukus for committing genocides in Iraq.

    2013
    fukus backed opposition party failed to unseat PM Najib.

    2013
    Xi JIng Ping received red carpet welcome in KL,
    meeting with both Najib and Mahathir.
    The trio toasted to a ‘new level of Malaysia./sino friendship.’
    [This alone is punishable by death in the eyes of the cabal in Washington]

    2014
    Malaysian sky started raining airliners.

    mh370 ‘disappeared’,
    mh17 ‘shot down’,
    AirAsia QZ8501 crashed,
    mh148 engine on fire, near miss.
    Helicopter with PM Najib’s PA onboard exploded in mid air….

    [tip of an iceberg]

    From these facts alone,

    Ian Fleming’s fundamental law of probability practically guarantees these are enemy actions.

    As for who has the motive to screw
    Malaysia/China/Russia all at once….
    one stone killing three birds ?

    Elementary, Watson !

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    , @denk
  103. FB says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    ‘…Consider me as merely thinking up some of the questions counsel might put to his own expert witnesses to make sure they are not going to be shot down under cross examination. For fun…’

    Sure thing, Perry Mason…LOL…btw I see you have turned this thread into the ‘Wizard Spamfest’…nice work…

    For the sake of the others here I will proceed to dismantle your hot air balloon…

    Here’s what that BBC article you linked to says…

    ‘…The airspace over eastern Ukraine was busy with commercial flights that day – 160 planes flew over the region…’

    Now here is the rest of the story…for those who are actually qualified commercial pilots, that sentence is meaningless…yes 160 aircraft flew over the Dnipopetrovsk FIR that day…a region more than half the size of Germany…only a small fraction of which region is the actual conflict area…

    Here is a look at the airspace of Ukraine, showing the four FIRs that cover the country…

    Notice the geographic size of the Dnipro FIR [UKDV]…comparable to the size of the entire neighboring country of Romania [230,000 square km and which incidentally has one single FIR covering its entire territory]…

    Notice also the UKDV FIR is subdivided into four sectors…only the most eastern one being the area of Donbass, and even this chunk of airspace is much bigger than the Donbass itself…here’s another map showing the Dnipro FIR and the location of the city of Donetsk…

    Now here is a look at the Eurocontrol high altitude aeronautical chart for this area…notice the dozens of airways criss-crossing it…

    The dashed green lines demarcate the Dnipro FIR boundary…and the small black lines are the airways, which are the ATC ‘highways’ for aircraft traffic…

    Here is the area of interest on the same chart but zoomed to see the detail, including the airway designations…

    The yellow circle highlights the L980 airway designation on the chart, on which MH17 was flying…the orange circle is the approximate spot where the aircraft came down…here is the illustration from the DSB report, which omits the other airways for simplicity…

    So we can see that there are literally dozens of airways in use over the eastern Ukraine…and this is indeed busy airspace for commercial transport…so saying that 160 flights flew over eastern Ukraine that day tells us nothing about how many aircraft flow over this actual route…ie airway L980…big difference…

    Another case of the MSM using selective information to bamboozle a non-technical layman audience and spin a narrative that has nothing to do with anything…

    Also noteworthy is that MH17 was a daily route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur…and its normal route was not on L980, but 200 miles to the south…

    There are many more technical details here to discuss, including the altitude issue [the Ukrainians had closed the airspace in the region up to 32,000 ft]…and I will be glad to explain the technicalities of what is in the DSB report for those that may be interested…as this type of document is geared toward aviation professionals and may not be fully understandable to the layman…

    As for our friend Wizard…may I suggest that he stop making a spectacle of himself here…

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  104. @Wizard of Oz

    Life is simple. “Cui bono” is the key. The rest is hot air.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  105. FB says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    So that’s your ‘evidence’ to support your earlier statement…?

    ‘…the Russian version – admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo – of a fighter firing a missile at MH17…’

    Turns out, from your own citation above that this was not anything that was handed over to the DSB by the Russian govt…but the ‘satellite photo’ was something that ran in Russian media…and was supposedly ‘debunked’ by self-styled expert Eliott Higgins [aka 'Brown Moses], an underwear salesman and blogger who has no technical credentials whatsoever…

    And just to put this in perspective…the very same source you pointed to says the Russian news outlet that ran the story got the sat photo by email from an American individual, one ‘George Bilt’…not from Russian sats…

    So the fact of the matter is that the Russian govt never provided any satellite photo…the whole thing was a media concoction of no interest to anyone…so your representation of this on this thread is clearly false…

    As for Higgins and Bellingcat…we may recall that ‘Brown Moses’ has called distinguished MIT professor and former scientific adviser to the chief of naval operations at the Pentagon…an ‘idiot’…

    …also turning down a challenge to actually debate prof Postol…

    Hmm…interesting that self-proclaimed ‘expert’ Higgins chickens out from an actual debate…of course this nitwit knows full well that his BS only works on social media…and that he would be dismantled like a cardboard box by a bona fide scientist like Prof Postol…

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  106. FB says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    This is what ‘Wizbang’ says about the author of this article, who happens to be a respected professor from a respected university…

    ‘…showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is…

    Reminds one of underwear salesman Eliott Higgins calling Prof Ted Postol an ‘idiot’…talk about chutzpah…

    Oh and ‘Wizbang’ says he doesn’t have a ‘dog in this fight’…yet he is foaming at the mouth all over this thread…pretty pathetic…

  107. annamaria says:
    @anon

    “If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive.”
    – let’s try to explain you, anon [115], the gist of the article.
    The author wrote: “Since the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase that took part in the coup attempt, the incident over Syria would appear to fit in a framework that may also have decided the fate of Flight MH17: a provocation to throw relations with Russia into disarray, but we don’t know for sure.”
    The author gives the governments of the US, Denmark, Ukraine, Australia, and Belgium the benefits of doubt. This is despite the outrages lies by the US and EU, lies that have resulted in the mass slaughter in the Middle East, in the revival of neo-Nazism in Ukraine, and in the flooding of the EU with the desperate refugees from the bombed-out Middle East and with opportunistic low-IQ migrants from sub-Saharan Africa.
    To understand what is going on on the eastern front, you need to familiarize yourself with this article (here on Unz Review): http://www.unz.com/article/correctly-defining-modern-zionism/
    ‘“All [personal] vows we are likely to make, all [personal] oaths and pledges we are likely to take between this Yom Kippur and the next Yom Kippur, we publicly renounce. Let them all be relinquished and abandoned, null and void, neither firm nor established. Let our [personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths.” -the Kol Nidrei.
    This uncontestable quote provides the necessary context for the wild and vicious propaganda against the Russain Federation by the zionized criminals that have no dignity and no principles. The zionized US/EU has been following this approach — “Let our [personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths” — to international law and the judicial system at large.
    The US/NATO have destroyed Iraq, Libya, Syria, Serbia and more just during the last few decades. Ukraine is currently under a strain of disintegration.
    The stupidity of the UK government with regard to Skripal affair illustrates the complete irrelevance of facts for the zionized deciders.
    The Sec of State John Kerry claimed that the US had an irrefutable evidence (satellite imgaes) of Russian guilt. Where is the evidence?
    Why Ukrainians are among the judges if some of the evidence points towards the possible criminal acts of Ukrainians?
    Why has an expert in selling the ladies’ underwear (E. Higgins of Bellingcat) become a principal judge and investigator re the MH17 tragedy as well as the events in Syria? The Atlantic Council and Department of War Studies at King’s College London admire the ignoramus for his bold Russophobic statements, even if the highly-valued professionals and true experts have debunked the idiotic tales by Higgins.
    If you want to learn more about the technical details of the tragedy, you should look for the report by the professionals on the web. Up to date, the US has been refusing to provide the satellite images over Ukraine obtained at the time of MH17 tragedy.
    And please, pay attention to the important details mentioned in the article, “…the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase…”

    • Replies: @Anon
  108. FB says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    ‘…Nothing to do with radar…’

    Sorry kid…like I said the ONLY official claim [ie from the Russian govt, not from any third parties] regarding a second plane in the sky at the time of the incident is the radar data I mentioned…

    This radar data was handed over to the Dutch, but has been declared by the JIT as ‘not usable’ due to formatting issues, exactly as I said…here is a Dutch news report from 2017…

    And the google translation from the Dutch…

    ‘…Kiev – Radar records transmitted by Russia have not helped Dutch investigators investigate the launch of a Malaysian passenger plane over eastern Ukraine.

    The data was delivered in October in a format that deviated from international standards, said a prosecutor spokesman on Saturday in Amsterdam.

    “More information is needed to understand the importance of radar images,” he says.

    Russia had handed over the data – shortly after the publication of a report in September 2016, in which Dutch Special Investigators had blamed Moscow for the downing of Malaysia Airlines’ MH17 flight…’

    I think this pretty much drives home the last nail in your coffin of BS and obfuscation…

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  109. annamaria says:
    @mcohen

    is this you, Mr. Elliot Higgins?

  110. skrik says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Do you really fancy your chances of raising your credibility above 0°K [= absolute zero] by citing smh citing bellingcat? For any who don’t know, smh is a shonky 2nd-string Aus branch of the MSM-Lügenpresse, and belling cat is a rogue-regime empire psyop.

    Haw. In fact, guffaw. What a disgrace.

    • LOL: FB
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  111. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Playing a little boy? Could you imagine for a sec that the lease for Russia’s Black Sea Fleet had stipulated the presence of Russian military personnel in Crimea? No?: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/21/ukraine-black-sea-fleet-russia
    It is also terribly inconvenient for you that there were several referenda before the ziocon/banderite putsch in Kiev, which showed unequivocally that Crimeans wanted to have a greater independence from Kiev: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014
    UNDP in Crimea conducted series of polls about possible referendum on joining Russia with a sample size of 1200:
    Yes No Undecided
    2009 67% 1 5% 18%
    2010 66% 9% 25%
    2011 66% 14 % 20%
    Final results from the Autonomous Republic of Crimea (2014)
    Join the Russian Federation: 1,233,002
    Restore the 1992 constitution and remain as a part of Ukraine: 31,997

  112. annamaria says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    You mean, the facts are irrelevant because they are “ethnically impure” (came from a Russain manufacturer? This certainly settles the case.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  113. annamaria says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Amazing. The Unz review has a twin of Elliot Higgins among the discussants. Though the twin (WoO) is able to do a more nuanced propaganda than the hapless “expert” from Atlantic Council.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  114. @FB

    So you are a commercial pilot? Perhaps for you the formidable amount of technical expertise you have crammed in your brain has left too little room for elementary logic.

    If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or35,000 feet instead of 33,000 then the presence of 160 aircraft on that day is clearly capable (unless Planefunder can give you precise data to allow disproof) of producing circumstances where at a particular time air traffic control found it imprudent to allow MH17 to fly at a more economically optimal level – or air traffic control might have been bloody minded or lazy. (How about trying to deter pilots from even asking? Imagine “I wish these greedy bastards would stop trying to chisel another bloody thousand feet out of us”.Yep, imagination may be lacking as well as logic).

    If the argument is just about flying over Eastern Ukraine at all then it is apparent that only about 6 or 7 airlines had stopped doing so – or is the commercial pilot going to tell us in detail how that is wrong?

    • Replies: @FB
  115. @annamaria

    Just plain silly. Same point as not putting definitive reliance on anyone anywhere who might be under political pressure to tell one simple lie.

  116. @skrik

    Another shonk. For your trivial point…..The SMH is, with The Age, a shadow of its former self but leftish and greenish and in no way plugged into US propaganda.

    For your substantial deficiency…. Are you arguing that this photograph proves something? Or are you arguing that the Russian cheer squad never published it? You are not clearly doing more than making a vulgar noise.

    More to the real point you fail to notice that my reference to the photo was to point out that the proponents of canon or machine gun fire from a fighter were maybe off message. Also, that, accepting the photo as genuine, the pilots would probably have seen something which would be reflected in what the voice recorder picked up.

    • Replies: @skrik
  117. @FB

    Learn to read what others say. I made no claim that the Russian government was behind the photograph. All that you say here is irrelevant not air as a reply.

  118. Anon[180] • Disclaimer says:
    @annamaria

    OMG. Who do you expect to read all that tendentious, highly contestable (if anyone bothered), partisan guff?

    • Replies: @annamaria
  119. @annamaria

    Wow! You guys keep proving that that particular “king” (WoO) has no clothes long after everybody noticed it already. Clearly, this “unbiased” “wizard” works for the State Department, as he/she/it uses standard State Department tactics: when you have no arguments, repeat your lies, preferably with some non-sensical videos; when you are tired of repeating your own lies, repeat the lies of some bellingcat or other that your agency and/or your vassals are funding, and keep doing this ad nauseam. Make your posts as long as possible to bore people to death. Even if they won’t believe you (i.e., if their IQ exceeds the clinical threshold of 80), they would get tired of debunking your lies, so you’d feel like a “winner”.

  120. @AnonFromTN

    You seem to be clever enough when you try hard… Do you understand why I say your use of “cui bono” is an instance of the petitio principii fallacy?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  121. @FB

    Another big effort completely nullified by your failure to read and understand the words. Even taking “the [sic] Russians” to mean official government Russians it was not I who referred to “the Russians” but Bierstiefel. I did think of specifically pointing out to him that it seemed to be merely an effort of the incompetent Russian cheer squad but hadn’t counted on there being a wordy representative of it here who needs kindergarten explanations.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  122. Rurik says:

    petitio principii fallacy?

    hey lizard,

    are you suggesting that Putin benefited by the MH17 ploy?

    or,

    are you suggesting that the ZUS putsch to install an overtly anti-Russian regime in Kyiv was a cynical act of the Fiend to punish Putin for meddling in their scheme to destroy seven nations in the greater Levant- that Israel considers inconvenient to its expansion?

    And so once Putin set about restoring sanity to the region; MH17 and assorted lies about ‘assassinated journalists’ and persecuted Pussy riot girls and ethnic Russians in Donbas being murdered by the zio-quislings in Kyiv, etc., were all part of the Fiend throwing a temper tantrum.

    Yes? No?

  123. @Wizard of Oz

    The US propaganda machine is remiss, it does not teach trolls posing as intelligent people proper Latin. The fallacy of petitio principii describes the position of the State Department and the US in general best: no investigation was necessary, the guilty were appointed even before the debris of MH17 cooled down. Try again.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  124. FB says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    ‘…If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or 35,000 feet instead of 33,000…’

    You have that completely backwards…it was ATC that requested MH17 to climb to FL350 [35,000 ft] as per the flight plan filed by the MH17 crew before taking off…

    The ATC request was denied by the MH17 crew which chose to continue at FL330…the reason for this was discussed in the DSB report [sec 3.3.2]…

    The reason the crew chose to stay at this cruise altitude was explained to the DSB by Malaysian… that 33,800 ft was the optimal altitude for the given conditions, per the Boeing performance handbook…this is due to the fact that optimal altitude varies with atmospheric conditions of temperature and pressure, winds aloft etc…often the weather predictions at the time of filing the flight plan change by the time you get there…

    There is nothing unusual about any of this…ATC was simply directing the crew to go to the altitude it had filed in its plan…the crew chose to remain where they were and ATC did not deny that clearance, nor did it question it further…so it has nothing to do with any possible traffic conflicts as you seem to allude…

    [hard to actually tell what it is you are saying, but you seem to imply that there was all kinds of traffic there and that this whole altitude business had to do with that...completely wrong]…

    Also the DSB interviewed 16 operators, eight of which stopped flying over eastern Ukraine…not ‘six or seven’…

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  125. FKA Max says: • Website
    @skrik

    Fake news from the BND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Service_(Germany) , so your entire theory falls apart, in my opinion. I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.:

    Ukraine asks German agency for clarification on flight MH17 findings

    Similarly, Ukraine’s Ministry of Defense in an official statement posted on its website, October 20, has categorically denied claims that terrorists had seized the BUK-M1 (NATO code: SA-11 Gadfly) anti-aircraft missile system from a Ukrainian military unit.

    “Certain media citing the German magazine Der Spiegel have been disseminating information that the Malaysian passenger plane, flight MH17 , flying over the Donetsk Oblast had been downed by a BUK anti-aircraft missile system seized by pro-Russian separatists from one of the Ukrainian military units. The Command of the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine officially states that information on the seizure by terrorists of the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system from a military unit of the Air Force of Ukraine is not true,” the Ministry’s statement said.
    [...]
    “At the time when the terrorist entered the territory of the military administration, there remained only old and unusable vehicles,” the Defense Ministry stated.
    [...]
    Ukraine’s position finds some backing in a report posted on the website of the Center for Eurasian Strategic Intelligence (CESI), October 22. According to the CESI report, the information presented by German Intelligence at the closed hearing differed markedly from information that was released publicly. Most notably, all information that the BUK-M1 (SA-11) system had crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border had been removed from the original document.

    http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/22/ukraine-asks-german-agency-for-clarification-on-flight-mh17-findings/

    I just wrote a comment on the reliability of Der Spiegel reporting, that might be of interest to you:

    All this leads me to the conclusion and reinforces my previous perception that the Der Spiegel article http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html might not be entirely reliable due to its heavy reliance on anti-American, pro-Assad/Iran/Russia BB sources, which likely dis-/misinformed the Der Spiegel reporters about the true extent of Russian involvement and causalities in the incident
    [...]
    Der Spiegel is also a center-left publication https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/spiegel-online/ which are in general less critical of Russia and most of the time even sympathetic towards it (not a bad thing, at all), and it also has had business connections to pro-Russian media in the past, and therefore might not be considered completely unbiased and objective when it comes to Russia reporting

    http://www.unz.com/tsaker/book-review-losing-military-supremacy-the-myopia-of-american-strategic-planning-by-andrei-martyanov/#comment-2408166

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @skrik
  126. annamaria says:
    @Anon

    “tendentious, highly contestable, partisan…”
    Well, anon [180], could you elaborate on what exactly was “highly contestable” and “partisan?”
    1. Are you ready to refute that the US/NATO are guilty of the ongoing slaughter in the Middle East and the revival of neo-Nazism in Ukraine? — Try!
    2. What is “highly contestable” and “partisan” about this quote? — “All [personal] vows we are likely to make, all [personal] oaths and pledges we are likely to take between this Yom Kippur and the next Yom Kippur, we publicly renounce. Let them all be relinquished and abandoned, null and void, neither firm nor established. Let our [personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths.” -the Kol Nidrei. The the Kol Nidrei “was not originally a prayer, but a declaration offered during Rosh Hashana, the start of the Jewish new year. In “modern” Judaism it is now being delivered as a prayer and has so grown in prominence during the last sixty years that it is now delivered at the commencement of Judaism’s holiest yearly event of Passover.”
    3. Do you have some new information on the Skripal affair, which can explain the workings of the most deadly nerve agents within the time frame on which the UK government foolishly insists?
    4. The Sec of State John Kerry claimed that the US had an irrefutable evidence (satellite images) of Russian guilt. https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/– What is “highly contestable” and “partisan” about the US refusal to provide the evidence?
    5. What is “highly contestable” and “partisan” about naming Elliot Higgins an ignoramus and Russophobe? http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/06/medias-beloved-expert-higgins-wrong-again-and-again-and-again.html
    https://21stcenturywire.com/2018/02/06/a-to-guide-top-anti-russia-think-tanks-us-funds/ — You are welcome to enlighten the reader.

  127. @Rurik

    I’ll bet that those Jewish banksters get a real kick out of using a bunch of neo-Nazis as pawns to advance their plans. A special frisson.

  128. @Beefcake the Mighty

    Heh.

    But actually, I think the contents of the colostomy bag is in the running.

  129. Rurik says:

    Jewish banksters get a real kick out of using a bunch of neo-Nazis as pawns

    no doubt

    somewhere else here there was a discussion about how the Zionists are upset with the Germans for being too passive, (after generations of being demonized as congenitally militant).. but now they want the Germans to get riled to go kill Arabs for them.

    Neo-Nazis killing Russians in Ukraine must certainly give them a ‘special frisson’ like no other.

    now how to get American goyim to kill Arabs and Persians to kill American goyim and Germans to kill Arabs and Poles to kill Russians and English to kill Persians and Sunnis to kill Shias and Americans to kill Sunnis and Shias and …

    no wonder they were dancing and high-fiving each other on 9/11

  130. @FB

    So you enjoy beating up a scrap over trivia with lots of words when there is no useful point to be advanced.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  131. @AnonFromTN

    You don’t know the “intelligent people’s” meaning of fallacy: res ipsa loquitur.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  132. annamaria says:
    @FKA Max

    “I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc”
    Sure. Mr. Higgins is also pretty sure that BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc. All because of his incomparable expertise.
    Here is an opinion of the highly competent and highly principled Robert Perry: https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Bellingcat
    “Bellingcat is an amateur run, supposedly independent, source of image analyses on controversial images. Its operator, Eliot Higgins has been praised by The New York Times, The Washington Post and The Guardian. However, Robert Parry termed Bellingcat’s analysis of satellite photos related to the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 an “amateurish [and] anti-Russian… fraud.” Another commentator claimed that Higgins “has constantly been a source of dis/misinformation on Syria and Ukraine.
    More for FKA Max: “Higgins had stumbled into a potentially profitable (in terms of media exposure and possibly pledged funding) publishing venture. … His output has been nothing if not consistent, viz: Consistent with what one would expect from promoters of the Anglo-US-NATO Official Narratives of geo-politics and the War on Terror, but done in a slipshod and blatantly partisan fashion that those who quote him (the Commercially-controlled media) are wary of claiming their own…”
    Enjoy the company: http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/06/medias-beloved-expert-higgins-wrong-again-and-again-and-again.html
    “Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women’s underwear company to create Bellingcat, a celebrated internet blog that specializes in using open-source information to blame Russia for every crime against humanity – real or imagined – committed so far this century.” https://www.sott.net/article/388086-NATO-stooge-and-vulgar-twat-Eliot-Higgins-has-go-to-message-for-critics-Suck-my-balls

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  133. @Wizard of Oz

    We can tell you put a lot of effort into these speeches. Do you practice in front of the mirror?

  134. FKA Max says: • Website
    @annamaria

    Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women’s underwear company to create Bellingcat

    This seems to be highly important and relevant information to be aware of to be able to solve the MH-17 case ;-)

    Signs of the Times (Sott.net) is an alternative news website, originally founded on March 26, 2002 by Laura Knight-Jadczyk.

    https://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Signs_of_the_Times

    annamaria,

    Do you also believe this article from sott.net?

    Aliens Don’t Like to Eat People That Smoke!

    Signs of the Times

    But still, we think that there is MORE to the relationship between anti-smoking campaigns and alleged “aliens” – something sinister. The reader may wish to read our page on Diet and Health Related Questions as well as the Wave series by Laura Knight-Jadczyk from which the following has been extracted
    [...]
    Now, … did you notice that it says that “animals use similar substances [acetylcholine antagonists or ANTI-nicotine] to paralyze their prey? We have to wonder about the oft reported conditions of paralysis associated with “alien interactions” and the almost rabid attack on smoking in our society.

    http://www.sott.net/signs/anti-anti-smoking.htm Archived link: http://archive.is/c9JIX

    Q&A with Laura Knight-Jadczyk — Skepticism in Research

    Good information here: https://www.bellingcat.com/tag/mh17/

    MH17 – Russian GRU Commander ‘Orion’ Identified as Oleg Ivannikov

    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/05/25/mh17-russian-gru-commander-orion-identified-oleg-ivannikov/

    Thanks again, annamaria, for introducing me to all this new information and all these new sources and resources: http://www.unz.com/article/revisiting-litvinenko-what-really-happened/#comment-2401541

    I highly appreciate it, even if we don’t agree on the narrative and conclusions, etc.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @annamaria
  135. denk says:

    Why was mh17 shot down ?

    To demonise Russia.

    Why was mh370 ‘disappeared’ ?

    Following the ‘disappearance’ of mh370, there were spades of kidnappings of Chinese tourists by the Abu Sayaff gang. [1]

    PM Najib wondered out aloud….
    Somebody is out to drive a wedge between Malaysia/China’

    That was my first thought when hearing a Malaysian airliner had ‘disappeared’ with 200+ Chinese nationals onboard.

    Before mh370…

    After….………

    Malaysians go online to fight Chinese criticism over MH370

    https://www.todayonline.com/world/malaysians-go-online-fight-chinese-criticism-over-mh370

    Missing MH370: China, Malaysia Mistrust Becomes War of Words

    https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/missing-mh370-china-malaysia-mistrust-becomes-war-words-n61481

    Malaysia Airlines MH370: China’s unusual anger and finger-pointing

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh370-china-s-unusual-anger-and-finger-pointing-1.2587969

    minister-blames-chinese-media-for-mh370-families-anger

    http://www.thatsmags.com/china/post/4057/malaysia-minister-blames-chinese-media-for-mh370-families-anger

    In MH370, upset Malaysian officials see China ploy to divert anger

    https://www.malaymail.com/s/646263/in-mh370-upset-malaysian-officials-see-china-ploy-to-divert-anger

    MH 370: The deterioration of Malaysia/China relations

    http://mole.my/mh-370-the-deterioration-of-malaysiachina-relations/

    Tip of an iceberg.

    cui bono ???

    [1]
    Long known to be CIA patsies

    http://socialistworker.org/2002-1/388/388_04_Philipinnes.shtml

  136. @Wizard of Oz

    No doubt you were called in on a military project that was attempting to bore people to death, but the project was later abandoned after the resulting deaths proved to be unduly slow and painful.

  137. @Beefcake the Mighty

    That’s not really fair. FB quite clearly is very knowledgable on matters of aviation and aerospace and has written lengthy informative comments that have been praised by many readers whilst the Wiz is seen by most readers here as being on the same low level as Quartermaster, Michael Kenny and such like, having zero credibility and an obvious purpose here to confuse and obfuscate.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    , @Anon
  138. @Wizard of Oz

    Arguing with a troll makes as much sense as a heart-to-heart conversation with a lamppost. Even discussing such an apolitical subject as Latin. Ciao.

  139. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    Great presentation on the MH-17 case, which reveals the identities of the BUK anti-aircraft missile launchers’ commanders and crews:

    Finding truth in a post-truth world | Elliot Higgins | TEDxAmsterdam

    Higgins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins probably also inspired and worked on this investigation/report:

    Selfie Soldiers: Russia Checks in to Ukraine

    Hiding in Plain Sight: Putin’s War in Ukraine
    By Maksymilian Czuperski, John Herbst, Eliot Higgins, Alina Polyakova, and Damon Wilson

    http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/publications/reports/hiding-in-plain-sight-putin-s-war-in-ukraine-and-boris-nemtsov-s-putin-war

    http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/images/publications/Hiding_in_Plain_Sight/HPS_English.pdf

  140. Mr. Hack says:
    @annamaria

    This is ‘probably’a bunch of junky Russian laced fake news:

    These posts probably contain the correct scenario of what really happened.

    :-)

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @annamaria
  141. @denk

    I also have wondered if hurting Malaysia was a secundary goal.
    Soros indeed is hated in Malaysia, they think that he permanently increased the cost of living by speculating against the Malaysian currency

    • Replies: @denk
  142. @Wizard of Oz

    There is not much accidental in Ukrainian bombers using passenger planes as shield against BUKs.

  143. @Tom Welsh

    It was Thrasymachus, not Thrasybulus.

  144. @NoseytheDuke

    Right, I wasn’t referring to FB, I was referring to the Whiz, who is in absolutely no position to lecture people on pretentious, faux-legalistic rambling.

  145. This site has a marvelous history publish even the insane comments, but credibly enough also many well founded and reasonable ones. The worst comments imo are those from revisionists, flat earthers and neo nazis.
    On this article, I think it matters most to just ask: Qui bono; who benefited?
    Major players on the world arena do stupid things, but there is always an agenda. And thing do not happen by chance, nothing ever did, history has proven that. Minor players have to be satisfied with the agenda presented to them by their overlords.
    In this “peculiar incident” a airliner what downed in some way. Both Major players have been “peculiar” reluctant to pursue the case (In copmparison to their usual MO), Russian maybe a bit more openly rejecting the responsibility.
    The minor vassal states hollering their masters script as usual. But who benefited ? Well the Ukrainians did initially benefit, but squandered everything away, a corrupt kleptocrat oligarchy as it is, so their final gains are worth nil, as neither IMF, NATO, EU and the US sees them as a “partner anymore, just as a basketcase of open thievery.
    What is interesting are the Russian/US claims of satelite imagery, radio tapes, ect,ect that they have not published, any of them….. Hmmmmmmn They agreed to this , but why ?
    Because one Dirty hand holds another, they are probably blackmailing each other, with stuff too sensitive to the public.
    I have not got the fantasy, to think that the Russians did it or that they gave that kind of weaponry to a bunch of not adequately trained rebels. My fingers are pointed at Ukraine, I figure the reason the Russians dont pursue this line of thinking is that they do not wish, a total ciwil war on their borders (violent break up of Ukraine), nobody else wants it, and that is why we are going nowhere.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  146. And please, please! Anything Eliot Higgins has endorsed is false! Anything NATO funds is hardly non partisan or impartial, same goes Syrian watch thing in London cellar, who knows all!!
    These guys have discredited citizen journalism incredibly, they are indeed tools of the Evil Empire.

  147. annamaria says:
    @FKA Max

    Never heard about FKA Max, but have a great respect for the late Robert Parry: https://consortiumnews.com/2018/06/30/the-berkeley-tribute-to-robert-parry/
    “Bellingcat is an amateur run, supposedly independent, source of image analyses on controversial images. Its operator, Eliot Higgins has been praised by The New York Times, The Washington Post and The Guardian. However, Robert Parry termed Bellingcat’s analysis of satellite photos related to the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 an “amateurish [and] anti-Russian… fraud.” Another commentator claimed that Higgins “has constantly been a source of dis/misinformation on Syria and Ukraine.” “https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Bellingcat
    I have a great respect for Unz Review and Consortiumnews but a zero respect for the thoroughly zionized Atlantic Council that employs Higgins as “expert” — along with another “expert,” the fraudster Dm. Alperovitch of CrowdStrike fame: https://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2017/03/24/crowdstrikes-alperovitch-is-a-vicious-fraud/

    http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2018/06/exposing-the-russian-hacking-fraud-by-publius-tacitus.html

    FKA Max, stay with your beloved Belligcat and Atlantic Council — the Unz Review forum is obviously too traumatic for you.

  148. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    “Secret US 2006 Government Document Reveals Plan to Destabilize Syria by Using Extremists, Muslim Brotherhood, Elections:”

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/secret-us-2006-government-document-reveals-plan-to-destabilize-syria-by-using-extremists-muslim-brotherhood-elections/5647017

    “American officials say the U.S. government has had extensive contacts with a range of anti-Assad groups in Washington, Europe and inside Syria. To give momentum to that opposition, the U.S. is giving serious consideration to the election-monitoring scheme proposed in the document, according to several officials. The proposal has not yet been approved, in part because of questions over whether the Syrian elections will be delayed or even cancelled. But one U.S. official familiar with the proposal said: “You are forced to wonder whether we are now trying to destabilize the Syrian government.”
    Some critics in Congress and the Administration say that such a plan, meant to secretly influence a foreign government, should be legally deemed a “covert action,” which by law would then require that the White House inform the intelligence committees on Capitol Hill. Some in Congress would undoubtedly raise objections to this secret use of publicly appropriated funds to promote democracy.”
    – Who needs democracy in the US when the “only democracy in the ME” has a flaming desire to break the functioning Middle Eastern states?
    “Neoconservative [ziocon] Think Tank Influence on US Policies:” http://historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=neoconinfluence&neoconinfluence_prominent_neoconservatives

  149. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    If you insist, Mr. Hack, there are some Western reports on the collusion of ziocons with banderites (neonazis):
    “The Kagans Are Back; Wars to Follow” https://consortiumnews.com/2017/03/15/the-kagans-are-back-wars-to-follow/
    Ziocons’ tireless support for the revival of neo-nazism in Ukraine: https://consortiumnews.com/2017/10/14/fueling-more-bloodshed-in-ukraine/
    “Is the U.S. Backing Neo-Nazis in Ukraine?” https://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/us-backing-neo-nazis-ukraine
    You are welcome to debunk these reports.

  150. skrik says:
    @FKA Max

    I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.

    Dream on.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @Anonymous
  151. annamaria says:

    Major Israeli Daily: Our Government Is “Arming Neo-Nazis In Ukraine”: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-10/major-israeli-daily-our-government-arming-neo-nazis-ukraine
    Where are the main 52 American Jewish organization to condemn the revival of neo-nazism in Ukraine?

  152. skrik says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    The SMH is … in no way plugged into US propaganda

    Says you; do you lie on malignant purpose or out of sheer, utter ignorance?

    Let smh speak for itself:

    Yet this creates a dilemma for the West which for the last few years has seen Russia as a dour geo-political trouble maker hostile to democratic values

    Me: Haw #1

    Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014

    Me: Lie #1

    and likely played a role in the shooting down of Malaysian airliner MH17

    Me: Lie #2

    the use allegedly by Russian agents on its territory of a toxic nerve agent which caused more damage this week

    Me: A really stupid unsubstantiated allegation

    The issue of Russia’s interference in the 2016 presidential election is significant

    Me: The next really stupid unsubstantiated allegation

    Mr Putin must be enlisted to play a role building peace in the Syrian conflict

    Me: Haw #2, Mr Putin is actively ‘building peace in Syria’ by successfully combating the FUKUSIL terrorist, war-criminal proxies like IS et al..

    Fazit: The SMH is as far up the rogue-regime empire’s propaganda rear fundamental orifice so as to see no daylight.

    mendaci neque quum vera dicit, creditor

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  153. denk says:
    @jilles dykstra

    Cui bono ?

    First the geopolitical angle, namely fukus decades long effort to stir up shit in SCS, setting Asean/jp against China…

    ‘Located on the geostrategic Malacca Strait, Malaysia is a predominantly Muslim oil-producing nation with a “Look East” policy allying itself with Japan and China. Last year the Malaysian and Chinese governments established an economic alliance, which includes Asian access to world oil reserves. In the eyes of Washington and its allies, these are sufficient grounds to treat Kuala Lumpur as an adversary.

    Even though the Malaysian police force has cooperated closely with the US Embassy in the war on terror, which led to arrests of top-ranking Al Qaeda-linked terrorists, that is not good enough. The late Moammar Gaddhafi of Libya and Syrian President Bashar al-Assad also aided Washington in post-911 anti-terrorism, and look where it got them. It is not enough to be a friend of America. For a leader to survive, he must be a groveling yes-man, a political slave - and never mind America’s long-forgotten principles of sovereignty or self-determination.’ [1]

    The main aim was to wreck KL/Beijing honeymoon, drove Malaysia into the anti Chinese posse.
    KL/Beijing relation did go down a few notches post mh370

    Meanwhile, fukus always try biggest bang for the buck and go for multi prong attacks.

    The other objective could be to liquidate Chinese chip engineers.

    ‘Among the 200-plus passengers bound for Beijing, the target group for the hijack is narrowing down to 20 tech employees working for Freescale Semiconductors, based in Austin, Texas. Among these programmers and systems designers are 12 Malaysians [ethnic Chinese ?] and 8 citizens of mainland China.’ [2]

    Then , Soros could be part of the caper, exacting his pound of fresh from Malayia. [3]

    [1]

    https://rense.com/general96/mh370.html

    [2]

    https://rense.com/general96/tinymicro.html

    [3]

    https://rense.com/general96/role.html

  154. denk says:
    @denk

    Hmm…

    For Washington, surely this must be another one for Malaysia’s chart sheet, another score to settle !

    2004,
    The SMH sneeringly opined…

    Malaysia puts US in its place over offer to police busy sea lane

    Malaysia has rejected a plan by the United States to deploy marines and special forces troops to counter potential terrorist attacks against international shipping in the Straits of Malacca, one of the world’s busiest sea lanes.

    The commander of US forces in the Asia-Pacific region, Admiral Thomas Fargo, last week revealed a plan to use troops aboard high speed vessels to police the straits, which run between peninsular Malaysia and the Indonesian island of Sumatra.

    …………

    But in a rebuff, Malaysia’s Deputy Prime Minister, Najib Tun Razak, said at the weekend that control of the straits was the sovereign prerogative of Malaysia and Indonesia, and US military involvement was not welcome.

    https://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/05/1081017106683.html?from=storyrhs

    Grrrr..
    uncle must be straining at his leash over that one.

    BUt then you cant keep a good man down for long, uncle sham is now coming into the Malacca Straits in a big way, FON and all that jazz.
    where’s Najib who gave uncle the finger ?

    p.s.
    SMH, The Age, The Australian, The conversation all declared me persona non grata.

  155. Cui Bono? Russia. It was a Buk and it was a newer model that Ukraine does not have. There is footage of a group of “rebels” (actually Russian invaders) walking through the debris field saying, with surprise and regret, “we shot down an airliner.”

    If you want to believe nonsense, feel free, but publishing trash like the above is unconscionable.

  156. @Quartermaster

    “If you want to believe nonsense, feel free, but publishing trash like the above is unconscionable.”

    Take your own advice, asshole.

  157. annamaria says:
    @Quartermaster

    The legacy of McCain: http://www.voltairenet.org/article201925.html — A traitor, warmonger, and coward.
    “John McCain is an elected US Senator, and is also president of one of the branches of the National Endowment for Democracy, one of the secret services of the « Five Eyes » (USA-UK-Australia-Canada-New Zealand). On 22 February [2011], he was in Lebanon, where he tasked the transport of weapons in Syria to the Haririst deputy Okab Sakr. He also journeyed to Ersal in order to establish a future rear base for the jihadists. …
    On Friday 18 March [2011], an Islamist demonstration was staged at the exit of the Al-Omari mosque. The crowd chanted « Allah, Syria, liberty » — The term should be understood in the sense given by the Muslim Brotherhood, that of «the freedom to apply charia law». During this demonstration, shots were fired both against the police and also against the demonstrators, without anyone knowing where they were coming from. It is probable, as we have seen in Venezuela, Libya, and other countries [see Kievan pitch 2014], that the shooters were from a third force tasked with creating an atmosphere of civil war and preparing a foreign invasion. …
    Senator McCain admitted that he was in permanent contact with the heads of the jihadists (including the commanders of Daesh)… Confronted with a recording of one of his telephone conversations, Okab Sakr admitted that he had supervised the transfers of weapons to Syria.”
    – The “war on terra” has been very profitable for MIC; the war has produced conflicts in the Middle East, where the real terrorists became the best buddies of the CIA/McCain and Israeli.
    In Ukraine, Brennan (the CIA), Kagans (ziocons), and McCain have become the main promoters and supporters of neo-Nazi. (Hey nazi-hunters, where are you?)
    The energetic “Quartermaster” could continue, ad nauseum, to repeating the amazing discoveries made by Eliot Higgins about BUK in Ukraine and WMD in Syria (Higgins is a joy of the thoroughly zionized Atlantic Council), but these “discoveries” cannot obscure the facts of arms supply to both ISIS and neo-Nazis by the CIA, Israel, and by the obedient vassals from NATO.
    In Ukraine, the banderites have made a pact with ziocons in a hope that by using the US influence, the banderites could establishing a banderite state. Dream on. Expect to be crushed by ziocons, and sooner than later.
    Whereas the White Helmets’ tales and Skripal affair’ stupidities are hailed by MSM, the truth can be found on the alternative sites.

    http://fact.international/2018/07/israel-is-arming-neo-nazis-in-ukraine/

  158. FKA Max says: • Website
    @skrik

    Even RT reported that the BND report was never intended to be conclusive but mainly “evaluated multiple valid scenarios with regard to their plausibility and probability” and that the Der Spiegel and other media outlets’ reporting about it was inaccurate and misleading:

    https://www.rt.com/news/203995-germany-intelligence-report-mh17/ Archived link: https://web.archive.org/web/20170514120701/https://www.rt.com/news/203995-germany-intelligence-report-mh17/

    The Russian embassy in Berlin received an official response to note #3693 from October 27 regarding Germany’s Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND intelligence agency) President Gerhard Schindler’s allegations that local militia in eastern Ukraine shot down the Malaysia Airlines flight in July.

    The media interpretation of the report of the Federal Intelligence Service (BND) president delivered to the Bundestag Committee overseeing intelligence activities on October 8 is incomplete and arbitrarily taken out of context,” the note says.
    [...]
    German diplomats insisted that the BND’s analysis and evaluation was based “on information obtained from intelligence and from open sources,” which included data from the interim report of the Dutch investigation commission conducting the inquiry. The report delivered by Schindler “evaluated multiple valid scenarios with regard to their plausibility and probability,” the note said.

    The ministry stressed that according to the decision of the International Civil Aviation Association (ICAA), investigation of the MH17 flight crash was handed over to Dutch authorities, authorized to exclusively deliver all information on the issue.

    RD Insight: Reason’s for Putin’s high approval rating

    Alexey Levinson, social research director at Levada Analytical Center talks about the reasons for Russian President Vladimir Putin’s high approval rating.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  159. @skrik

    Well I suppose one lot of peasants, not being armed to fight the real battle with the knights and archers could try some rape and pillage of the camp followers amidst the baggage train. You have added the personal detail of smearing faeces from some undetermined species.

    No word on the substance but even your peripheral marauding invites the observation that the selective quotes go nowhere near denying the not “plugged in” to US propaganda. Fairfax Media, which has a long history of which you probably know little, often gets things wrong like all news media. It made United Australia Party people very angry about 1941 when it supported the Labor Party, and it did it again later to the Liberals but there is no way it has become a knowing conduit for any propagandists/parties/countries. Please try to stop seeing malignity whenever someone says something you don’t immediately approve.

  160. Anonymous[348] • Disclaimer says:
    @skrik

    Instead of just sniffing round like a flearidden mongrel and snapping at ankles why not occasionally put some effort into contributing to the substance and at least answer other commenters points.

    • Replies: @skrik
  161. Anonymous[348] • Disclaimer says:
    @Den Lille Abe

    “Nothing ever happens by chance”. On the face of it that looks absurd so let me try and tease out your meaning.

    May I assume that you don’t mean that everything in the human world happens because at least one human actually wanted it to and caused it to happen?

    So let’s try with whoever fired a BUK missile which brought down a civil airliner
    (a) just accidentally firing when he or another was just using the nearest available plane to centre the aiming mechanism
    (b) the intended target was one plane flying near another but, for technical reasons, the missile ended up destroying the wrong plane.
    Etc.
    Kindly explain your “nothing ever happens by chance” so your readers know what you mean by it.

    • Replies: @Den Lille Abe
  162. annamaria says:
    @FKA Max

    “open sources” — Eliot Higgins as the main provider? The scoundrel has zero scientific training, zero technical training, zero engineering training, and zero training in chemistry. Eliot Higgins was ridiculed by the experts in all of the above fields of knowledge. But the zionized Atlantic Council loves, loves, loves Higgins. Do you know why, “FKA Max?”
    “The media interpretation” — You mean, “interpretations” by MSM? Cannot stop polluting the Unz forum with the presstituting propaganda, “FKA Max?”

    “Kerry Pressed for MH-17 Evidence” by By Robert Parry

    https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/

    “In a letter to Kerry dated Jan. 5, 2016, Thomas J. Schansman, Quinn’s father, noted Kerry’s remarks at a press conference on Aug. 12, 2014, when the Secretary of State said about the Buk anti-aircraft missile suspected of downing the plane: “We saw the take-off. We saw the trajectory. We saw the hit. We saw this airplane disappear from the radar screens. So there is really no mystery about where it came from and where these weapons have come from. …
    “U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [the designation for a Russian-made anti-aircraft Buk missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.”
    The analysts’ uncertainty meshed somewhat with what I [Robert Parry] had been told by a source who had been briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts shortly after the shoot-down about what they had seen in high-resolution satellite photos, which they said showed what looked like Ukrainian military personnel manning the battery believed to have fired the missile.
    The source who spoke to me several times after receiving additional briefings about advances in the investigation said that as the U.S. analysts gained more insights into the MH-17 shoot-down from technical and other sources, they came to believe the attack was carried out by a rogue element of the Ukrainian military with ties to a hard-line Ukrainian oligarch. [See, for instance, Consortiumnews.com’s “Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts” and “The Danger of an MH-17 Cold Case.”]
    Do you know this oligarch, “FKA Max?” The Ukrainian/Israeli thug that has been a “pillar of Ukrainian Jewish community?”
    Have you heard about Awan affair, the greatest breach of the US cybersecurity? There was certain Israel-firster involved in the crime (she was also instrumental in rigging the Dems nomination for POTUS). No persecution.
    Have you heard about the Wiesenthal Center of Nazi-hunters? Not a peep from the Center with regard to the revival of Nazism in Ukraine. The revival has involved certain Kagans family, hence the absence of the “peeps.”
    So please, take your Higginsian revelations about Ukraine and Syria to some other place where they will be appreciated. You know, the zioconish NYT, WaPo, WSJ, Guardian, and likes.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  163. denk says:

    Not OT,

    mh370 and mh17 are part of the package deal , a pay back to KL ‘insolence’ , it has practically bankrupted the MAL,.

    Is it possible for a Boeing 777 flying thru SCS, one of the most electronically monitored hot spots in the world, then ‘disappeared’ without trace ?

    Dr Mahathir didnt think so,
    ‘CIA withholding information on flight MH370′

    Malaysia made a formal request to Oz for info about mh370.

    Canberra ….
    ‘impossible, it concerns our national security’
    [sic]

    Why Oz ?

    cuz the CIA runs Pine Gap base operates some of the most powerful radars in the world.

    How powerful ?

    *It can pick up the type of airliners taking off from Changi airbase.

    *It routinely monitored , intercept communications from the regions military commands .

    *There was even a live broadcast of video conference bet the Malaysian high command in Aussie parliament, to impress on the capability of Pine Gap !

    So the question remains,
    What dark secrets are the Aussies hiding from the world ?

    • Replies: @Biff
  164. FKA Max says: • Website
    @annamaria

    Examining the Evidence of Russia’s Involvement in a Malaysia Airlines Crash

    The new imagery obtained by Stratfor does not prove that this particular Buk system fired a missile at the airliner. Nonetheless, it further substantiates the narrative being pieced together by the collective analysis of open-source information.

    Source: https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/examining-evidence-russias-involvement-malaysia-airlines-crash Archived link: http://archive.is/1PsnK

    MH17 – The Open Source Investigation, Three Years Later

    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/

    https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/mh17-3rd-anniversary-report.pdf

    Comment in the comments section of that Bellingcat.com post on the Bild article following below:

    DSA - May 25, 2018

    You read it wrong, the article actually says Russia closed its airspace up to the level that could be targeted by BUK, suggesting they knew in advance a BUK was going to be there and possibly shoot at stuff and they wanted to protect Russian airliners.

    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/comment-page-2/#comment-157929

    Drei Jahre nach MH17-Abschuss Neuer Verdacht gegen Putin
    ​Russland sperrte Luftverkehrsstraßen Stunden vor dem Abschuss

    http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/flug-mh-17/mh17-wusste-putin-etwas-52576256.bild.html

    Am Ende des NOTAM fand sich jedoch eine weitere Angabe, nämlich die Anordnung der Schließung des Luftraums zwischen dem Boden bis Flughöhe „FL530“. Dies entspricht etwa 16 100 Meter.

    Die Regelung galt ab dem 17. Juli 2014 um Mitternacht (Moskauer-Zeit), also ab 17 Stunden vor dem Angriff auf MH17 in etwa 10 000 Meter Höhe.

    Auffällig: Die Schließung des Luftraums mit Hinweis auf „die Kampfhandlungen auf dem Territorium der Ukraine nahe der Staatsgrenze zu Russland“ ging bis 2100 Meter über die Dienstgipfelhöhe der Buk-Rakete (Typ 9M38), die MH17 abschoss.

    Google Translate translation:

    However, at the end of the NOTAM there was another indication, namely the order of closure of the airspace between the ground to flight level “FL530″. This corresponds to about 16 100 meters.

    The ruling was from 17 July 2014 at midnight (Moscow time) , ie from 17 hours before the attack on MH17 at about 10 000 meters altitude.

    Conspicuous: The closure of the airspace with reference to “the fighting on the territory of Ukraine near the state border with Russia” went to 2100 meters above the service peak height of the Buk rocket (type 9M38), the MH17 shot down.

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @annamaria
  165. denk says:
    @Biff

    Yes thanks.

    Heard about that message reportedly sent from Diego Garcia.

    but OUt of the loop soon.

    Be back tonight.

  166. @Anonymous

    What I meant specifically is when you take events that we ponder in history, there alway seems to an unrlying story that explains the event. An instigation that is plausibly the trigger, causing the event to happen.
    The murder in Sarajevo, it was not a lone Anarchist, it was a planned assassination, carried out by a nation state through proxy. But at the surface, it was just a nut job. But it was a thoroughly thought out terror plot, meant to increase tensions to the brink of war and it succeeded, albeit the outcome in the end, historically was dire.
    Of course accidents happen and brash foolishness also plays a part, but often things are planned and often enough they backfire.

  167. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:

    Thank you for acknowledging that “The Law of Unintended Consequences” is more than an academic’s joke and that cock ups do occur.

    Don’t you like the
    pithy “If the choice is between a cock up and a conspiracy choose the cock up every time”? :-)

  168. skrik says:
    @Anonymous

    Instead of just sniffing round like a flearidden mongrel and snapping at ankles … at least answer other commenters points

    1st of all, attacking a commenter is ad hominem [= fallacy when 'unjustified'], 2nd one cannot contest arguments based upon false premises – like Wizard of Oz’s risible “The SMH is … in no way plugged into US propaganda” and FKA Max’s extensive bellingcat spam, say.

    3rd, a partial quote: “But it remained for the xxx, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, …

    4th, lemma #1: At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui bono?

    5th, lemma #2: At any crime-scene, there are one or more perpetrators, possibly accessories, apologists and/or ‘idle’ bystanders. It is incumbent upon *all* witnesses to attempt to a) restrain malefactors and where possible b) rescue victims from harm. *All* present and not in active resistance to the crime attract proportional guilt.

    Addendum: Any person profiting from crime also makes him/herself an accessory [like all non-native residents in the 'illegitimate entity,' say.]

    Now, a definitive assertion: That the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes are ‘black hats’ capable of and actually perform depredations of the ‘supreme international crime’ class, any ‘supporters’ of same make themselves accessories and attract proportional guilt, as in lemma 2.

    Declarative: My position is as a “bystander” as above, and since a) civil duty and b) silence = acquiescence, I *must* make my objections known, and choose to do so as emphatically as I can – in my own ‘style.’

    Finally, ‘right vs left’ is a useless if not false dichotomy; ‘aggressors vs defending victims’ is apposite and the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes can be expanded to:

    FUKUS-M/I/C/4a†-plex, with dog-wagging-tail, its illegitimate sprog the Zionist/Israeli rogue regime + Js = I/J/Z-plex, all components rife with corruption.

    a = academic = econ, psy, leg et al.; 4 = MSM+PFBCs, † = churches

    add a few significant stragglers like $ = banksters & ¿ = spies

    The subset CCC [= covert criminal cabal] plus their puppet politicians as ‘rulers,’ the handmaiden MSM+PFBCs [latter = publicly financed broadcasters] as Bernays-haze propagandists exactly fit as “xxx” in the top-quote and the accessory ‘supporters’ [i.e. trolls/hasbarats in here] constitute ‘the enemy.’

    Exactly because “All politicians lie!” [thanks, but "No, thanks!" to JWHoward] and the MSM+PFBCs ditto, we the world citizens are in a ‘mushroom club’ [= kept in the dark and fed on BS]; there is no complete factual base available to us, and so it becomes a ‘*circumstantial*’ argument.

    We, the ‘white-hats’ assert that the ‘black-hats’ as above caused MH17 to be shot down. The argument is that the preponderance of observable circumstantial evidence points that way. That the accessory supporters [= trolls/hasbarats] are ‘protesting too much’ [see Wizard of Oz's hysteria, say] can tell us something, namely that the white-hats’ assertion hits too close to the black-hats’ home. A ‘tiny’ [= $5bio] piece of proof: Mme Nuland’s “F–k the EU!” If the cap fits …

    • Replies: @Anon
  169. annamaria says:
    @FKA Max

    Los Angeles Times: “U.S. officials believe attack against Malaysian plane was mistake.” http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/
    “U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [the designation for a Russian-made anti-aircraft Buk missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.”
    – Do you understand that the US has “high-resolution satellite photos” showing “what looked like Ukrainian military personnel manning the battery believed to have fired the missile?” https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/
    – Again, FKA Max, who is that Ukrainian/Israeli oligarch whom you are so strenuously protecting? “…the U.S. analysts came to believe the attack was carried out by a rogue element of the Ukrainian military with ties to a hard-line Ukrainian oligarch.” https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ihor+kolomoyskyi&view=detail&mid=7814F871DC8C94A863407814F871DC8C94A86340&FORM=VIRE
    – Cheerleading for ziocons, FKA Max, with all your Kol Nidrei enthusiasm?

    https://consortiumnews.com/2018/07/05/corporate-medias-about-face-on-ukraines-neo-nazis/

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  170. FKA Max says: • Website
    @annamaria

    Bellingcat.com et al. = hard photographic, video, etc. evidence

    versus

    Robert Parry et al. = mostly hearsay

    e.g. “According to a source briefed on the tentative findings, the soldiers manning the battery appeared to be wearing Ukrainian uniforms and may have been drinking, since what looked like beer bottles were scattered around the site. But the source added that the information was still incomplete and the analysts did not rule out the possibility of rebel responsibility.” – https://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/

    Oh, and by the way the smoking gun in this entire investigation, so we don’t forget… “Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women’s underwear company to create Bellingcathttp://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2411311 … Now think about that!

    annamaria,

    what you term me “polluting” the site I consider not engaging in echo chamber discussions.

    Just out of curiosity… You are a true believer in the information you share, correct?

    Have you ever been wrong about something in your life, annamaria?

    Have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect before?

    In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability; without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.[1] On the other hand, people of high ability incorrectly assume that tasks that are easy for them are also easy for other people.

    More Orthodox believe their culture to be superior than Catholic or especially Protestant ones. Poland here is perhaps especially surprising.https://www.unz.com/akarlin/huge-pew-survey-of-eastern-europe/#p_1_14

    Are you an Orthodox Christian, annamaria?

    Interestingly, historically Protestant countries are the most highly educated and economically vibrant, and have been for centuries, but most of their population doesn’t believe their culture(/or opinion) is superior (Latvia and Estonia in the above example). A very good real-life example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action, in my opinion.:

    The three very major upwards outliers – more relatively literate than intelligent – are the Finno-Ugric Baltic states: Finland, Estonia, and Latvia. This can’t have been a non-Orthodox/Muslim thing: Both Poland (On-The-Vistula Governorate) and Lithuania (Kovno and Vilna) lie neatly on the correlation curve. Nor was it something Finno-Ugric; Karelia (then Olonets) is not an exception either. It must have been something specific just to them and the most obvious explanation is Protestantism. There is a lot of literature on the independent literacy-raising effects of Protestantism and I see no reasons why Estonia, Latvia, and Finland should have been exceptions to that.

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/literacy-predicts-russian-iq/#p_1_16

    Education as the Elixir of Growth II

    Source: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/education-as-the-elixir-of-growth-ii/

    Really makes you think, doesn’t it, annamaria?

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @annamaria
  171. annamaria says:
    @FKA Max

    Hey, FKA Max, you have been polluting this forum with the Atlantic Council stuff.
    Higgins “investigative” journalism, including his hapless manipulation of photographs from Ukraine, has been debunked by the real experts. Google the debunking yourself.

    Los Angeles Times: http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/
    “U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [the designation for a Russian-made anti-aircraft Buk missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.” The US intelligence community has the “high-resolution satellite photos” showing “what looked like Ukrainian military personnel manning the battery believed to have fired the missile” https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/
    “…the U.S. analysts came to believe the attack was carried out by a rogue element of the Ukrainian military with ties to a hard-line Ukrainian oligarch.” https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ihor+kolomoyskyi&view=detail&mid=7814F871DC8C94A863407814F871DC8C94A86340&FORM=VIRE

    – You have been shilling for ziocons, FKA Max. Whether you are upset with the banderites lack of success in the Kaganat of Nuland (former Ukraine) or you are just another unhappy aliya in Israel, your “research” shows desperation. Anyway, you are not taken seriously.

    https://consortiumnews.com/2018/07/05/corporate-medias-about-face-on-ukraines-neo-nazis/

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  172. annamaria says:
    @FKA Max

    Your attempts at putting the courageous and principled Robert Parry on the same plane with the ziocon shill Higgins (an ignoramus and opportunist) is disgusting.

    “In October 2015, Parry was awarded the I.F. Stone Medal for Journalistic Independence by Harvard’s Nieman Foundation for Journalism, “for his career distinguished by meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media. … Parry broke the story that the Central Intelligence Agency had provided an assassination manual to the Nicaraguan Contras (Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare). In mid-1985 he wrote the first article on Oliver North’s involvement in the affair, and, together with Brian Barger, in late 1985 he broke the CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US scandal.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_(journalist)

    —To repeat for you, FKA Max:
    Robert Parry’s carrier was “distinguished by meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media.”

    — Compare Robert Parry to your main and most valuable source Elliot Higgins:
    “Higgins has no background or training in weapons, saying that “Before the Arab spring I knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I’d learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo.” Higgins does not speak or read Arabic. … Higgins partnered with the Atlantic Council to co-author the report Hiding in Plain Sight: Putin’s War in Ukraine.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins

    “…the Atlantic Council has a troubling history of taking money from foreign special interest groups and government agencies in return for pushing propaganda to support various initiatives around the globe. … Atlantic Council had received funding from the Ploughshares Fund, which was a major player in efforts to sell the Iranian nuclear deal to the American public. The Ploughshares Fund is financed by George Soros’ Open Society Foundation.
    The Atlantic Council consistently promotes hostile, anti-Russian rhetoric. The organization has also promoted unsourced and unfounded claims that Russia was responsible for “hacking” the 2016 U.S. presidential elections despite the fact that this conspiracy theory has been resoundingly debunked by various authorities in the intelligence community and by multiple media sources. The Atlantic Council, unfazed by the evidence that their claims of hacking were false, have continued to promote these falsehoods in the aftermath of the election in what appeared to be a possible effort to undermine American democratic institutions.” https://disobedientmedia.com/2017/02/george-soros-funded-think-tank-attacks-disobedient-media-over-eu-coverage/
    – To repeat for you, FKA Max: the Atlantic Council, and its loyal employee Higgins, are well-known promoters of falsehoods.

    • Replies: @skrik
    , @FKA Max
  173. denk says:
    @Biff

    Evidence ?

    Other than the fisherman in Maldives who saw a low flying airliner….

    It there’s any evidence at all it’d prolly reside in the Pine Gap log somewhere.
    But what can we do if Oz says we cant have it ?

    In civvy case, a court can order a building owner to hand out its cctv tapes to assist a murder investigation,.
    On the international level, its entirely different matter cuz the 5lies are above any international law, never mind their constant bleating about a ‘rule based international order’.
    Its the law of jungle….backed by NATO.
    Who’s gonna issue a search warrant to NATO ?

    Then again, in a civvy murder case, a beneficiary of the deceased would never be appointed as investigator.
    BUt this is exactly what happened in the mh370 case where the Malaysian police was ‘assisted’ by CIA/FBI !
    Talk about the fox guarding the chicken coop !

    Judge, prosecutor and executioner all in one.
    No wonder the Malaysian police chief was driven to moan aloud ,…
    I doubt this case will ever be solved’ !

    P.S.
    I rarely if ever sit thru a video , preferring to read its transcript.
    But I recommend this video if you’r interested in the mh370 case, its worth your time.

    Interview with Mathias Chang, top aide to Dr Mahathir,

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @Skeptikal
  174. FKA Max says: • Website
    @annamaria

    No offense, but you seem to be short-circuiting, annamaria.

    Your recent postings remind me of Mr. Rubio-Roboto ;-)

    RubioBot Short-Circuits On The Campaign Trail

    Styx – Mr. Roboto (Relaid Audio)

  175. Skeptikal says:

    ” added elements such as humanitarian intervention ”

    There is an excellent discussion in the June 21, 2018, London Review of Books, “The Mask It Wears,” by Pankaj Mishra, on the elevation and exploitation of the human rights argument to justify neoliberal incursions into sovereign nations worldwide.
    It is dense, but clearly argued once the author gets past his longist background setup.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  176. skrik says:
    @annamaria

    Hey, FKA Max, you have been polluting this forum

    Me: Yes. ‘It’ is known as a troll [*it* is un-sexed; especially when trolls align with 'the great Satan' and therefore against all decency, they de-sex themselves, just as they de-humanise themselves.]

    My recommendation: I**3 = Identify, inform, ignore. rgds

    • Replies: @annamaria
  177. Skeptikal says:

    Great article!
    Explains a lot.

  178. Skeptikal says:
    @anon

    The author clearly set forth the parameters of his article at the beginning of the article.

    The article is not a “whodunnit.” The article is an analysis of cui, in the end, bono.
    How was the incident used to further an agenda.
    That is what the author said he would do and that is what he did.
    So your complaint is beside the point.

  179. Skeptikal says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Troll alert!
    No gibberish in this article.

  180. Skeptikal says:
    @Mr. Hack

    “Sorry, but this author needs to rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology.”

    I don’t think the author says anything about false flags.
    He discusses the uses to which the incident could be put to use.
    Read the article before commenting!

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  181. FKA Max says: • Website
    @annamaria

    An argument from authority, also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam is a form of defeasible[1] argument in which a claimed authority’s support is used as evidence for an argument’s conclusion. It is well known as a fallacy, though it is used in a cogent form when all sides of a discussion agree on the reliability of the authority in the given context.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

    Credentialism

    belief in or reliance on academic or other formal qualifications as the best measure of a person’s intelligence or ability to do a particular job.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  182. annamaria says:
    @FKA Max

    You have been identified as a polluter of Atlantic Council (zioconish) persuasion.
    FKA Max, a representative of Elliot Higgins on Unz forum.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @FKA Max
  183. annamaria says:
    @skrik

    “… especially when trolls align with ‘the great Satan’ and therefore against all decency, they de-sex themselves, just as they de-humanise themselves.”
    — Agree. Thank you. Done. (FKA Max has entered “commenters to ignore” list). Actually, “FKA Max” is a curious specimen because of the absence of human decency in “it.”

  184. @Skeptikal

    You are too harsh on this troll. Ukies have trouble reading, and never understand what they read.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @Mr. Hack
  185. FKA Max says: • Website

    You have been identified as a polluter…

    This is scary, loco talk…

    I was always wondering what living under Communism or under McCarthyism would be/feel like…

    I think this is it.

    You have been identified as a polluter[/heretic/subversive/deplorable, etc.]

    In news media, echo chamber is a metaphorical description of a situation in which beliefs are amplified or reinforced by communication and repetition inside a closed system. By visiting an “echo chamber”, people are able to seek out information which reinforces their existing views, potentially as an unconscious exercise of confirmation bias. This may increase political and social polarization and extremism.[1] The term is a metaphor based on the acoustic echo chamber, where sounds reverberate in a hollow enclosure.

    Another emerging term for this echoing and homogenizing effect on the Internet within social communities is cultural tribalism.[2]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_chamber_(media)

    KGB, torture and Soviet terror: why Latvia worries about today’s Russia (NATO Review)

  186. Skeptikal says:
    @denk

    Very interesting. A bit hard to follow at times, accoustically. the interviewer kind of gets in the way.
    Chang states that up to now we haven’t been able to pinpoint who killed JFK.
    Actually, I think that Jerry Kroth as convincingly done that. If you are impatient, just skip to the end of this video. The man who shot Kennedy was James Files.

  187. Skeptikal says:
    @denk

    Unfortunately I cannot make out what Chang is saying about “global tsunami.” 58:00. He swallows his words at that point and the most important info is garbled. He repeats what he said, but once again it is not intelligible. The interviewer does not help. What is Chang saying about “214″? What kind of “global tsunami” will cause things to “spill out”? In fact, quite a lot of what follows is unclear.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @denk
  188. Skeptikal says:
    @jilles dykstra

    “The same nonsense that too many would be implicated in Sept 11.”

    Yes it is nonsense. In other words, this “someone would talk” meme is nonsense.

    1. People often don’t know that they are a cog in the wheels of a conspiracy. So, they pick up a bag and set it down someplace eles. They don’t know that it contains the murder weapon, etc. “Mules” for the mob are trained not to ask questions anyhow.
    2. If they do figure it out, they can very easily be intimidated into keeping their mouths shut.
    3. Professionals have pulled off many crimes in the past. Omerta rules their lives until they die, or come to grief in some “mysterious” accident or sudden death if they start f eeling like talking.
    4. Surveillance is very effective of those who know something—who know too much.
    Probably their residences are bugged and they are shadowed or watched in various ways. Just look at the list of mysterious deaths that followed the JFK assassination. They can also be put away for good in an asylum of some kind.
    5. Plenty of people do say something about what they know, but the MSM is very effective at suppressing unwanted info.
    6. Documentary evidence to back up the “kooks” who say they know something has a way of disappearing or being locked up for decades (cf. Dallas).

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  189. FB says:
    @annamaria

    Speaking of little poofter Eliot Higgins…

    Here is a bit of info most people probably don’t know…the website bellingcat use for photo ‘analysis’ Fotoforensics.com…well the founder of that website Dr Neal Krawetz, has slammed the group for misusing the software…

    He’s not the only image analysis professional who debunks the bellingcat BS…Jens Kriese is a professional image analyst in Hamburg, Germany and the founder of the IRISPIX photo archive…in an interview with respected German media outlet Der Spiegel, he debunked the supposed bellingcat ‘debunking’ of Russian sat imagery…

    ‘…SPIEGEL ONLINE: What’s your personal conclusion about the satellite images?

    Kriese: The first thing to die in war is the truth. Each side likes to throw random smoke bombs. There is no way of knowing if the images show what Moscow is claiming.

    What one can say, however, is that this “analysis” has achieved nothing besides raising awareness of Bellingcat. …’

    Notice the quotation marks Kriese places around the word ‘analysis’…so an actual professional dismantles underwear salesman Higgins…big surprise there…same as Prof Postol dismantles his BS about chem weapons in Syria…

    Incidentally Spiegel subsequently ran an apology for taking the Higgins poofter BS at face value…

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  190. Skeptikal says:
    @jilles dykstra

    “Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside.”

    Apparently Boeing has the relevant patents on this . . .

    • Replies: @Anon
  191. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FB

    Comment from under the Der Spiegel article you quoted:

    jiri_jilek 08/16/2016
    11. aber aber
    http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1201635/mh17-anniversary/ Bellingcat conducted a simple error level analysis (ELA) exercise using an online tool, Foto Forensics. Others have criticized Bellingcat, suggesting that a proper analysis should use more sophisticated software available to police and intelligence agencies. The James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey has a license for one example of such software, called Tungstène, and conducted an analysis using a suite of filters in the program.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/expert-criticizes-allegations-of-russian-mh17-manipulation-a-1037125.html#js-article-comments-box-pager

    MH17 Anniversary
    by Jeffrey Lewis | July 15, 2016

    We analyzed these slides using Tungstène, a suite of forensic software tools to detect alterations to images. In particular, we focused on two slides, hosted on the Russian Foreign and Defense Ministry websites – the “Cloud” slide and the “Two Buks” slide.
    [...]
    The stakes in this case are extraordinarily important, as they relate to the deaths of 298 persons. The image files are very poor quality. We are very disappointed that the Russian Federation, in such an important matter, would release such low quality images as evidence. If Russia’s claims are true, then the original, unaltered images would help demonstrate them. By contrast, Russian officials must know that releasing images in such a format makes it more difficult to verify the integrity of the images and is often a tactic to hide manipulations.

    Despite the poor quality of the images, however, it is clear that the images have been significantly modified or altered. These alterations are not limited to the addition of labels, callouts, and other explanatory features, but include changes to the underlying satellite images themselves including the clouds and vehicles. These are important details in the images. If these clouds and vehicles were, for example, added, then this would cast doubt on the truthfulness of General Kartapolov’s briefing.

    http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1201635/mh17-anniversary/ Archived link: http://archive.is/7IeK5

    The “Cloud” Slide

    Filter Showing Differences in Noise (Chrome)

    Even with the low quality of the image, we can assess this image to have been so heavily manipulated that it lacks any credibility as evidence. These modifications involve the alteration or addition of one, and possibly both, clouds. Russia should provide the original, unaltered image to the Joint Investigation Team for examination.
    [...]
    Chrome: This filter maps the photographic noise in the image. It demonstrates that there are significant differences among the regions of the image. Again, the cloud on the left appears deeply unlike the remainder of the image. The cloud on the right is also quite distinct.

    Another commenter from the Der Spiegel article:

    spon-facebook-10000110786 06/11/2015
    7. How many angels on the head of a pin?
    The expose of the Soviet (oops, I mean Russian) “explanation” of Ukrainian Buk vehicles is not based on metadata…it is based on easily proven lies ABOUT the images. “These comparisons of the field and vegetation patterns to the immediate west and east of the Ukrainian base are damning, in that they clearly show that the Russian MoD satellite photos were taken in June, and not July.” “Unless a patch of vegetation disappeared, reappeared, then disappeared again, the Russian Ministry of Defense falsely presented their satellite images. Their satellite images were taken in June, not on July, as they told the world while accusing Ukraine of shooting down MH17 just four days after the tragedy took place.” BTW, the Soviet MOD “images” also are missing the numerous, deeply-rutted vehicle tracks in the farmers fields that were double-documented by Digital Maps and Google Satellite. No, NOT a metadata issue At ALL.

    • Replies: @FB
  192. @Wizard of Oz

    As usual you’re lying through your teeth. There is nothing in the DSB report but their summary of the contents:

    http://www.buran.ru/MH17/report-mh17-crash-en.pdf

    (FB’s link doesn’t seem completely accessible.) The un-redacted contents either exonerate the Russians or implicate the Ukrainians, and at any rate the Americans can’t lie about the contents. (Which is any the Anglo-American media switched tunes in the summer of 2014, from saying the black boxes would be critical to dismissing their significance.)

    • Agree: FB
  193. Gerard says: • Website

    Quote : “Most importantly they had the motive”. Agreed this is the most important question of all. After the first report I wrote to the Dutch DIB in The Hague asking as to whether the board had considered the motive and also what motive the East Ukranian separatists could have prompted them to hand over in good faith the flight recorders. Of course I did not receive a reply and did not expect a reply. Hitherto I have never received a honest and coherent answer to those two questions. Personally I have no answer to the question what motive Russia could have to shoot down a passenger liner in broad daylight.
    I am still awaiting serious answers to those two questions.
    (Sorry I couldn’t read all comments)

    • Replies: @Anon
  194. FKA Max says: • Website
    @annamaria

    This http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2413815 was supposed to be a reply to this comment by annamaria. I forgot to hit the reply button.

    The following comment by her is actually even scarier. Classic case of dehumanizing your “enemy” before they are/can be justifiably “eliminated”:

    Actually, “FKA Max” is a curious specimen because of the absence of human decency in “it.”

    http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2413782

    Demonizing the Enemy a Hallmark of War

    “For most human beings, it takes an awful lot to allow them to kill another human being,” said Anthony Pratkanis, a psychology professor at the University of California, Santa Cruz. “The only way to do it is to justify the killing, to make the enemy look as evil as possible.”

    Propaganda, both by governments and the private media, has evolved over the years as media has evolved. But, some say, the principle remains the same.

    “The secret in propaganda is that when you demonize, you dehumanize,” said James Forsher, a film historian and documentary filmmaker who has studied propaganda films, and who is an assistant professor of mass communications at California State University, Hayward.

    “When you dehumanize, it allows you to kill your enemy and no longer feel guilty about it,” he said. “That is why during World War II, a lot of caricatures became animals. … You can kill a monkey a lot more easily than you can kill a neighbor.”

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=79071

  195. Skeptikal says:
    @AnonFromTN

    What I wrote is not “harsh.”
    It is factual.

  196. @AnonFromTN

    Where did you get that “three allegedly BUK shrapnel pieces were found in the body of the pilots” ? I ask because you appear to be relying on unreliable sources. Thanks to a surprisingly useful link from one of the dimmer commenters to what appears to be the full DSB report on a Russian site I can tell you that “hundreds” of fragments were found in the bodies of each of the people in the cockpit and that the “three” reference was to the non-flying Team B captain.

    Moreover the photographs in the report uniformly deny all those stories of round holes from bullets. The evidences of shrapnel from a missile explosion are abundant. Also the DSB report lists about ten possible air-to-air missile types and excludes them all.

    The map showing where the parts of the plane were found (quite widely separated) makes it clear that the aircraft broke up in flight in a way which shooting down by a fighter could not have caused. (Apparently, too, none of the Ukrainian or Russian radar records showed any other plane in the immediate facility oh MH17 which seems to quash several theories in one hit).

    You seemed to wander into partisan territory earlier when you referred to the Donbass rebels handing over the aircraft wreckage to investigators and suggesting that perhaps they should not have done that. .

    Did you mean to suggest seriously that they should have obstructed recovery and investigation? Why?

    Actually they didn’t hand over wreckage. For some weeks they apparently made it too dangerous for investigators to visit the 6 debris sites and then, far from handing anything over, may have tried to hamper the investigation team’s collecting of material by preventing anything being taken – like a missile fragment – that wasn’t part of the aircraft. (That last I heard in an interview of an onsite investigator: it may not be in the DSB report).

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  197. FB says:
    @FKA Max

    Are you still here, pinhead…?

    You’ve been spamming several threads here like some kind of retard…in fact judging by your reply to me there is no question that you are developmentally challenged…

    So you serve up here a reader ‘comment’ on the credible article I pointed to…which leads to blogger Jeffrey Lewis…another poofter in the Eliot Higgins style…although Lewis at least does have a humanities degree…but he has no technical credentials whatsoever, and is no more qualified than poofter Higgins to do image analysis…

    He has a doctorate in ‘policy studies’ [pfft]…here’s his wiki entry…

    Also I see that everything the actual expert to which I pointed actually said…sailed right over your head…and those like Lewis who have obviously never spoken to a professional image analyst…and therefore proceed to make fools of themselves in public…

    Here again is Jens Kriese…

    ‘…SPIEGEL ONLINE: How could one really test whether the satellite images have in fact actually been manipulated?

    Kriese: That is very difficult. Ideally it would require the original documents, the satellite images themselves or perhaps even the raw data. The Russians have them…’

    SO YOU NEED THE ACTUAL RAW DATA…NOT A PICTURE DOWNLOADED OFF THE RUSSIAN MOD WEBSITE STUPID…

    I guess in your hurry to scarf down the Lewis cowshit, you forgot to employ that ridiculous mass of calcified bone buildup you call a ‘head…’

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @annamaria
  198. @Wizard of Oz

    Sorry, humans don’t talk to trolls. Especially trolls posting blatant lies.

    • Replies: @Anon
  199. Greg S. says:

    I personally like the following conspiracy theory: Putin’s airplane was known to be transiting back to Russia from Europe that day. Russian plane colors: white with red, white, and blue striping. “Someone” whispers this information into the ear of a Ukranian pilot. A few other small and subtle gestures are done to ensure that this pilot and MH17 are in the same place at the same time. MH17 plane colors: white, with red, white, and blue striping.

    All “Buk” business simply comes from the fact that the Novorussians (aka “Russians” to the media) did not have an airforce and only had old Buk missiles at their disposal.

    • Replies: @Anon
  200. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FB

    So, you are basically claiming that the Tungstène software is lying.

    I have to give it to you, you are uniquely and expertly brazen.

    Photo Expert: ‘A Manipulated Image Is Not Necessarily a Lie’

    In the age of digital photography, it’s become increasingly easy to modify, process or manipulate the content of an image, and increasingly harder to sort truth from fiction.

    In 2009, under the impulsion of the French Ministry of Defense, the computer science technologies company eXo maKina developed Tungstene, a program that can reveal changes made to a digital file. Just a few weeks after World Press Photo, the world’s leading photojournalism competition, was forced to disqualify 20% of final entries because of excessive manipulation, Roger Cozien, the man behind Tungstene, discusses the relevance of truth in photography in an interview first published in French in OAI13 and republished here for the first time in English.

    http://time.com/3897858/photo-expert-a-manipulated-image-is-not-necessarily-a-lie/



    In this photograph of North Korean troops engaging in a tr[ai]ning exercise, eXo maKina was able to detect that parts of the image had been duplicated and enhanced.

    You are currently between the “Name-calling” and “Ad Hominem” level of “Graham’s hierarchy of disagreement”. Without the insults, bad manners and bad temper you are currently displaying, you could actually make it to the “Contradiction” or even “Counterargument” level: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Graham_(programmer)#Graham%27s_hierarchy_of_disagreement

    • Replies: @FB
  201. denk says:
    @Skeptikal

    Thanks for the JFK film.

    I recommended Chang principally cuz he’s the first one who pointed out there’s a massive air sea war game going on and mh370 was flying right into that ‘eye of storm’.

    Was it possible that the AWACS, spy planes, spy ships, etc didnt detect the airliner ?

    In fact there was also an air exercise going on when mh17 was shot down. ! [2]

    really makes one wonder if these ‘war games’ accompanying 911, mh17, mh370 and terror drills on the days of Sandy Hook, London 7/7, Boston marathon…were there to cover up a crime, a drill that turned live ? [3]

    Ian Fleming’s law of probability applies.

    Here’s a Chang video with better sound track but I’d have to re- watch it to see whether I can answer any of your questions. [watched it some years back]

    [2]

    http://themillenniumreport.com/2014/07/mh-17-and-nato-excercise-breeze-2014%E2%80%B3/

    [3]

    http://whale.to/c/terror_drills.html

    p.s.
    having problem accessing UNZ lately.

  202. FB says:
    @FKA Max

    Holy mother of jesus…another friggin spam storm from retardo boy…

    Do you have some kind of reading comprehension, aside from obvious mental retardation…?

    What part of this did you not understand…?

    SO YOU NEED THE ACTUAL RAW DATA…NOT A PICTURE DOWNLOADED OFF THE RUSSIAN MOD WEBSITE STUPID…

    Also being the shit eating dog you are, you don’t understand the very definition of ‘ad hominem’ you posted…

    ‘Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument’

    I addressed your pinhead argument [such as it is] by pointing out the fact that NO IMAGE ANALYSIS CAN BE DONE FROM A WEBSITE PHOTO…

    Again that flies over your retarded head…what does it take to make a retard understand basic English…?

    Pointing out that you are obviously retarded AFTER REFUTING YOUR ARGUMENT…does not an ad hominem make…moron…

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @Anon
    , @skrik
  203. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FB

    SO YOU NEED THE ACTUAL RAW DATA…NOT A PICTURE DOWNLOADED OFF THE RUSSIAN MOD WEBSITE STUPID…
    [...]
    NO IMAGE ANALYSIS CAN BE DONE FROM A WEBSITE PHOTO…

    You are simply wrong, and hurling insults at me won’t change that fact and reality.

    Yes, Tungstène can do that, and was in fact specifically developed for that purpose.

    The images published on the Russian MoD website were manipulated/altered, plus they were taken weeks or months prior to the July 17, 2014 shoot-down. So it is actually a double whammy lie by the Russian government:

    Their satellite images were taken in June, not on July, as they told the world while accusing Ukraine of shooting down MH17 just four days after the tragedy took place.

    http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2413957

    Presentation of TUNGSTEN: A Software for Digital Images Assessment. How to Detect Fake and Manipulated Digital Photographs.

    TUNGSTEN is a software developed by eXo maKina, a French company, since 2009. The software is used by the AFP (French Press Agency), the French and European Justice systems, the French Department of Defense, The French Department of Homeland Security, the Forensic Department of the Moroccan Police, the Moroccan Department of Defense, the MIIS in Monterey, CA – USA, etc.

    TUNGSTEN is the only available software solution for the advanced analysis and assessment of digital images and photographs, in order to detect and expose their potential anomalies and singularities.

    With respect to these anomalies, the software provides numerous filters and algorithms in order to distinguish what might be an accidental or computer artifact from a deliberate alteration made with the intention to deceive the public and, sometimes, to sway public opinion.

    TUNGSTEN and all its filters strictly rely on mathematics, physics and optics. Thus, all the results provided by TUNGSTEN are based on a highly scientific and objective approach. For this very reason, TUNGSTEN has already been used numerous times for legal cases.

    euronews hi-tech – Tungstène – the fake photo finder

    Russian Images of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Were Altered, Report Finds

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/16/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-flight-17-russia.html

    The anti-tampering software, though, found that a cloud obscuring a portion of one image had at one point been saved using a different form of data compression from the rest of the picture.

    In the other photograph, showing a pair of rocket launchers in a field with a road looping through it, the launchers are inexplicably in sharper focus than the surrounding field, according to the report. Along with Photoshop, other programs may also have been used, the researchers said.

    “It’s hard to be certain about what they have done,” Jeffrey Lewis, one of the report’s authors, said of the manipulation of the images. “It’s possible they enhanced the missile launchers that were there or that they cut and pasted them in.”
    [...]
    “Anything short of the original and unaltered images, given the manipulations evident in the slides released online, will naturally give rise to concerns Russia deliberately fabricated evidence to evade legal responsibility” for the deaths of the passengers and crew,” the Monterey group said in its study.

    • Replies: @FB
  204. @Skeptikal

    Indeed, the USA professor in civil engineering, something like that, who calculated that on Sept 11 gravity followed exceptional laws, was forced into retirement.
    It is the same everywhere, climate, Hitler, EU, euro, open society, Putin, Assad, Armenian genocide, death of Kelly, Hess, and of course the holocaust.

  205. Anon[168] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tulips

    According to the DSB report the only diversion by MH17 was one initiated by the pilots to avoid storm clouds (?cumulo nimbus I think).

  206. Anon[168] • Disclaimer says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Don’t tantalize us. Do give a link to the report of the Spanish (!) air traffic controller’s statement. sounds odd. Pay in Ukraine would be much lower than in Spain though I suppose he could have married a rich Ukrainia
    n’s daughter or ex….

    Also, while waiting, I’ll guess that someone sacked for being drunk on the job decided to sell a story to TV.

    Much more important how do you deal with the DSB’s 250+ page report which, from memory, rejects all theories involving other aircraft in the near vicinty of MH17 based on both Ukrainan and Russian radar which showed MH17 but no other planes?

  207. Anon[168] • Disclaimer says:
    @Skeptikal

    Have you done a patent search? It’s usually not difficult if you want to supplement hearsay.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  208. Anon[168] • Disclaimer says:
    @Gerard

    I think you are seriously missing the point that the default hypothesis is the best answer, namely that no one had a motive to shoot down MH17. If, instead of writing to what you call the “Dutch DIB” you had read the Dutch Safety Board’s report you would have spared being treated as an irritating gadfly. The DSB’s job was technical explanation not analysis of political or military motives. Moreover it might have occurred to you that a very good reason for handing over the black boxes was to avoid the inferences which would naturally be drawn by refusal to hand them over. Indeed it makes sense that Russia instructed its protegés to avoid doing something silly like hiding the black boxes.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  209. Anon[168] • Disclaimer says:
    @FB

    Have you read the DSB report? Given the amount of time you are putting into whatever cause it is you support its 250 or so pages shouldn’t deter you. Interesting in particular how many online comments on MH17 it shows to irresponsible or trollish blathering. The holes are obviously more like shrapnel than bullet holes. There were hundreds of metal fragments in the pilots’ bodies. There were no other aircraft nearby etc etc. So….

    If you have read what must now be the starting point for discussion what do you say is wrong with the report, and on what evidence and reasoning?

    Can you at least be one of those who is ear headed enough to see that the DSB report goes nowhere near saying that anyone, let alone Russians, deliberately shot down MH17?

    • Replies: @FB
    , @annamaria
  210. Anon[168] • Disclaimer says:
    @Greg S.

    And why do you like that conspiracy theory? A lifelong taste for fairy stories?

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  211. skrik says:
    @FB

    Err, not exactly OT, but consider my ‘it’ characterisation may be close to the mark – if FKA Max is a robot = AI experiment [going wrong!] Consider this month alone it’s posted 74 times so far, with a ‘nom-life-time’ average of over 320 words per post, noting a lot of cut’n paste included = getting towards 2k text per day, with a non-trivial number of incoherent sections. An erring robot for the FUKUSIL empire! rgds

    • Replies: @Anon
  212. Skeptikal says:
    @Anon

    See Mathias Chang, comment 179.

  213. Anonymous[359] • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @Anon

    As I was writing just “off the cuff” I inadvertently wrote DIB instead of DSB. But I would think that most peoples would have grasped what I meant. For those interested may I refer them to my blog ‘Contraviews’ where one mmsy find some interesting articles on MH17 written by experts in the aviation field, by scrolling down the various posts. Thanks for responding, point taken.

  214. @Anon

    Because it makes more sense than ‘Putin dun it’?

  215. Anon[162] • Disclaimer says:

    OMG. You can’t have listened to all that publicity hungry tosser’s guff for an over an hour. Is that the best you can do to answer a simple question about an alleged patent?

    Here is a shorter rant by him saying for most of it that because some Israelis accused Iran of hijacking MH370 it was “common sense” that Israel did it – or was setting Iran up for a false flag event. I think he almost gets round to saying 9/11 was a remote controlled event.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Anon
  216. Anon[162] • Disclaimer says:
    @skrik

    Start again. If my recollection is correct FKA Max is well known to Ron Unz and treated by him with at least some respect.

  217. Anon[162] • Disclaimer says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Finding a UR commenter actually praising some other commenters contribution I have attended closely to FB. Please tell us you withdraw your approval. His last intemperate outburst at FKA Max is surely unbalanced to point of disqualification? Otherwise I invite you to share the opinion that he may not be very bright because what he says has so often no need to be said if he was really attending to what the other had said and he was gebnuinely trying to answer it relevant. Or maybe he is an unbalanced partisan??? :-)

    • Troll: FB
    • Replies: @FB
    , @annamaria
  218. Anon[162] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I don’t see you having tagged Wizard of Oz comments with Troll so are your readers to infer that your definition of a troll is someone whose questions you can’t answer or whose nitpicking pedantry (as perhaps you see it) has got under your skin?

    But you do say something of general interest. You allege that there are lies in a post which was nearly all relaying what the Dutch Safety Board said so it is a bit hard to see what you meant by “lies”. Would you care to elucidate – unless of course your “lies” too, like “troll” was a Humpty Dumpty word.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  219. FB says:
    @FKA Max

    You really are hopelessly retarded…

    You come right back with the same Lewis cowshit and an NYT story citing the same Lewis cowshit…it is amazing to me that anybody could be so ridiculously inept and stupid…

    Is Lewis a professional image analyst…?

    No he’s not…he has no technical credentials whatsoever…

    Is Jens Kriese a professional image analyst…?

    Yes he is…

    ‘Jens Kriese…developed the stock photo archive IRISPIX and is a professional image analyst. He owns an office for digital imaging forensics in Hamburg.’

    His statement on the matter is very clear…

    ‘SPIEGEL ONLINE: How could one really test whether the satellite images have in fact actually been manipulated?

    Kriese: That is very difficult. Ideally it would require the original documents, the satellite images themselves or perhaps even the raw data. The Russians have them.’

    Why didn’t Kriese also add…’or you can just use Tungstene software’…?

    Surely a professional image analyst who does actual professional forensics would be aware of Tungstene’s miraculous ability would he not…?

    Bottom line is that I cited an expert…you cited MSM and other such crapola…that is the difference…

    You may choose to believe whatever your tiny malformed brain decides…but you cannot argue with an expert and his remarks on the issue of image analysis…so SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY…

    You are a ridiculous clown that is also making a huge nuisance here on this forum…you post voluminous garbage and stridently argue technical matters which you have no business arguing because you have zero knowledge of any technical matters whatsoever…

    Most of the longtime participants here are dismayed that this forum has attracted yet another tree monkey who screeches here all day, and pollutes the forum with ridiculous garbage that makes the page difficult to navigate…you are the online equivalent of irredeemable yahoos who dump garbage in public spaces, creating an eyesore for normal people who want to enjoy public spaces…

    Like those anti-social yahoos who just don’t give a crap about the offense they are causing normal people…you also don’t give a crap about spamming here with all kinds of rubbish that has nothing to do with anything…you even answer your own posts, piling more garbage on top of garbage…since few here even bother to engage with you…

    Get a grip already…you are the type of dirtbag who thinks its fun to set off stink bombs…a total retard who is making his mental retardation a nuisance for the entire community here…

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  220. FB says:
    @Anon

    I don’t normally respond to ‘anons’ since it is a nuisance for regulars here that we cannot access their posting history…and also quite idiotic that they cannot even be bothered to choose a completely anonymous ‘handle’ here, yet they don’t mind taking the time to post [usually garbage that is not worth responding to]…

    And in the case of your ‘anon 162′ trolling here…you did not even bother to look at my previous comments before popping off…

    http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2409344

    http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2410787

  221. FB says:
    @Anon

    …Finding a UR commenter actually praising some other commenters contribution I have attended closely to FB…’

    Yeah…you really ‘attended’ closely to me…as evidenced by your message to me to read the DSB report…LOL…thanks for the entertainment…the tree monkeys are always good for some laughs…

  222. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FB

    Why didn’t Kriese also add…’or you can just use Tungstene software’…?

    Because it is only available to very few institutions and organizations, particularly in the private sector (I am aware of none):

    The software is used by the AFP (French Press Agency), the French and European Justice systems, the French Department of Defense, The French Department of Homeland Security, the Forensic Department of the Moroccan Police, the Moroccan Department of Defense, the MIIS in Monterey, CA – USA, etc.

    http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2414297

    I don’t know how it is decided who gets access to the software.

    • Replies: @FB
  223. denk says:
    @Skeptikal

    In the film, Chang anticipated many more false flags coming after mh370, the master of universe didnt disappoint, next came mh17, mh148, QZ8501….that was for Malaysia alone.
    Recent cases include Salisbury and the Skripal, there may be more that I cant recall off hand.
    I think Chang meant to say the coming global tsunami of FF/black ops .

    Dont know what’s the significance of 214.

    besides the scoop of war game Cobra, I also like his methodology…
    Do not get obsessed with the how, that wont get very far, go with the who and why .
    It happens to be my own approach too.

  224. denk says:
    @Anon

    alleged patent?

    Uninterruptible’ Autopilot System.
    patented by Boeing in 2006.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  225. @Anon

    I did not mark that personage as Troll because somehow the site does not allow me to do that.
    Now, as to lies, here is an incomplete list:

    1. None of the pieces of material evidence satisfied chain of custody rules required by the law in most countries, including the Netherlands.

    2. Alleged missile fragments “from the site” were provided by one of the suspects, Ukraine. Their provenance was not (and could not be) ascertained.

    3. Shrapnel pieces. I quote DSB findings “The numerous injuries resulting from perforation of the pre-formed fragments after detonation of the warhead immediately killed the three crew members in the cockpit. There were no pre-formed fragments found in the bodies of the other occupants.”

    4. Site access: in contrast to WoO, DSB does not complain about site access (item 2.12.1 of the report, 1st paragraph). The second paragraph talks about security situation. If fact, Ukie military shelled the area of the wreckage for weeks (mentioned in DSB report on p. 54, without specifying who was shelling the area, which is a giveaway). WoO does not acknowledge that, blaming Donetsk People’s Republic instead.

    5. Most foreign objects found in passenger remains were identified as personal belongings, parts of the plane, and stones/coal particles from the ground (pp. 84, 86, 95).

    6. A number of metal fragments were found and analyzed. Some could have been high-energy pieces from whatever downed the plane (items 2.15.2 and 2.16.2).

    7. Traces of several explosives were found: RDX, TNT, and PETN (p. 93). Only one explosive is used in Buk missiles.

    8. There were two (not one) peaks of sound from cockpit recorder before the crash (pp. 11-112).

    9. Item 3.8.4 is recapitulation of the Ukrainian study conducted by the Kyiv Research institute. The data from one of the possible suspects had no legal grounds to be included.

    One can continue, but what’s the point? The other issues (items 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8), as well as the fact that international airlines fly through the Russian airspace, but avoid Ukrainian, which I raised in my post (#45) are studiously avoided by that “WoO” personage and other trolls from the same side. Sapenti sat.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Anon
  226. FB says:
    @FKA Max

    ‘…Because it is only available to very few institutions and organizations, particularly in the private sector (I am aware of none)…’

    Right…so blogger Jeffrey Lewis, with no professional image analysis credentials or background, can get a copy of this ‘tightly guarded’ Tungstene software…but true forensic professional Jens Kriese cannot…do you even realize how retarded that is…?

    And second question…just what information do you have about how the Tungstene software is licensed and to whom…?…[I especially like this little brain fart...'(I am aware of none)'...

    Ahh yes...the 'expert' FKA Max who has 'researched' Tungstene software availability and distribution extensively...[while sitting inside a fart cloud at his computer desk]…

    But alas, the refried bean gas emissions at your ‘workstation’ perhaps impeded your ‘research’ enough to find this…wherein a UFOlogist [LOL] describes his experience with Tungstene…

    Turns out Tungstene offers a service that costs $580 for analysis of a single photo…and a subscription plan of $70 per person…

    Another ‘UFOlogist’ on this site [site 'administrator' no less] then went and had an actual meeting with the creator of Tungstene, Roger Cozien…

    Turns out that Mr. ‘Tungstene’ himself told our ‘UFOlogist’ friend that he could license the software for $20,000, which includes a one week training session [deemed necessary] and which makes up $10,000 of the cost…

    So yeah…that really sounds like the FKA Max version of ‘reality’ where ‘top secret’ Tungstene technology is limited only to ‘very few institutions and organizations’…LOL…

    Here is a device I think you will find helpful in your further research…

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  227. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FB

    Your UFO source was from 2011.

    This from 2012:

    Used by press agencies, forensic institutes and the military, Tungstène is currently looking for a somewhat broader distribution network, but its French developer and patent owner Roger Cozien, states quite specifically that this is no software for end-users. It requires at least one full week of training before you can work with it. When you can, you can tell with virtually 100% confidence an image has been altered digitally.

    https://www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/145-software-detects-image-manipulation-video-version-on-the-way

    From 2010, he states there is “no exclusivity” but “For the moment, it is only offered to major administrations.” and “the entrance ticket is 50,000 Euro”. Google Translate translation:

    MDLP: Who is TunGstène for?

    The software is aimed at the administration, in the broad sense. Initially, it was intended for the Ministry of Defense, and the ministries that have intelligence and intelligence missions by photography. But there is no exclusivity. We then moved closer to Agence France Presse. AFP will acquire, as a press agency and publisher, in the coming weeks. Negotiations are in progress.

    MDLP: Is a more accessible version on the agenda?

    We will offer it to professionals of the image, whatever the structure. For the moment, it is only offered to major administrations. At the moment, if you go on a pool of five trained users, the entrance ticket is 50 000 €. The cost may vary depending on the number of users and the type of installation. For example, AFP asked us to develop specific modules. We are aware of the investment that this represents. We will lighten it to lower the price. But I do not know in what proportions. This version should see the light of day towards the end of the year.

    http://www.lemondedelaphoto.com/TunGstene-un-logiciel-detecteur-de,4558.html Archived link: http://archive.is/EHEGG

    That seems like a pretty hefty price tag, which restricts its availability.

    These tweets were send 3 months before Jeffrey Lewis published his article: http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1201635/mh17-anniversary/

    Jeffrey Lewis
    ‏Verified account @ArmsControlWonk

    Roger Cozien is training us to detect photo-fakery. My mind is blown. 3:48 PM – 18 Apr 2016 from Monterey Institute of International Studies

    Jeffrey Lewis
    ‏Verified account @ArmsControlWonk
    18 Apr 2016

    @BruceKlingner That requires tens of thousands of dollars of software and a week-long training session.

    • Troll: FB
    • Replies: @FB
  228. FB says:
    @FKA Max

    I see you ignored my advice on the Fart Trap 3000…I understand the cost is much less than Tungstene…and would improve your… ehm…’situation’ considerably…

    What is it exactly that you are arguing here Fartmaster…?

    That poofter Jeffrey Lewis, with no actual expertise in anything [other than a poofter degree in 'policy studies'] is giving us the definitive ‘proof’ that a photo he took off the internet has been proven to be a ‘fake’…?

    Here’s a question for you Fartmaster…has Tungstene chief Roger Cozien verified poofter Lewis’s MH17 results…?

    Here is that twitter thread you linked to…

    I’ve highlighted the question put to poofter Lewis by Max van der Werff…

    ‘…Roger Cozien has validated your MH17 results…?

    A fair question, no…?

    Curiously poofter Lewis does not respond…instead we get this from John Kriet…

    ‘That’s the big question, Cozien is keeping very quiet…’

    Ahh…so Dr Cozien is NOT endorsing the poofter Lewis and his claims…

    And then we have this…from none other than Dr. Neal Krawetz…who we recall is the creator of the Fotoforensics website, which he was quite pissed about the poofter Eliot Higgins abusing…

    ‘Good for him [Cozien]. Don’t get dragged into conspiracies by trolls.’

    Ahh…now that is REALLY interesting my dear Fartmaster…you see technical professionals like Dr Krawetz and Dr. Cozien do not appreciate it when amateur poofters go around making a mockery of what is a serious science…

    I’m sure you can understand that dear Fartmaster…being a ‘technical professional’ [gastrologist] yourself…

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @FKA Max
  229. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FB

    Thank you for the screenshoot.

    And then we have this…from none other than Dr. Neal Krawetz…who we recall is the creator of the Fotoforensics website, which he was quite pissed about the poofter Eliot Higgins abusing…

    ‘Good for him [Cozien]. Don’t get dragged into conspiracies by trolls.’

    I was already aware of all of this, and I’m glad you saw it, too.

    Did you check “Max van der Werff”‘s Twitter page?

    Max van der Werff
    @MaxvanderWerff

    #MH17 – *BLOCK* from @Bellingcat Anonymous = ignored/blocked and like = bookmark – https://twitter.com/MaxvanderWerff

    and his website he links to there: http://kremlintroll.nl/?page_id=2169

    Why I’m a Troll

    Russia and Defense expert Hans de Vreij didn’t like my interview in Sputnik: https://sputniknews.com/europe/201505231022483408/ Archived link: https://archive.is/UTRZq
    [...]
    As Dutch quality newspaper NRC Editor Central and Eastern Europe / former Soviet Union Hubert Smeets explains: “German image analyst criticises Bellingcat. About Russian sat pics you can’t say: fake, neither the opposite.”

    Conclusion: Dutch people who only read quality newspapers know that Bellingcat proved Russia has distributed false satellite pictures. Me denying that of course proves me to be a Kremlin troll.

    http://kremlintroll.nl/?page_id=188 Archived link: http://archive.is/WxPoV

    My interpretation of this comment by Krawetz is that “Max van der Werff”, whose blog/website is “kremlintroll.nl”, is the troll who he thinks peddles conspiracy theories regarding MH-17 and he recommends not to engage with him.

    Neal Krawetz is kind of upset at some Russians at the moment, by the way:

    Dr. Neal Krawetz
    ‏ @hackerfactor

    Dear Russian drug gang that keeps using FotoForensics to upload your drop locations: I’ve been telling you to stop using my site. I know you have seen the warnings. My next step is to publicize all of your pictures so other people can pickup your drugs before you. 7:23 AM – 6 Jul 2018

    You are probably also aware of the fact that one of Putin’s daughters is dating a Dutchman:

    Putin’s oldest daughter is said to be dating Dutchman Jorrit Faassen. Website Heavy report that Faassen has worked as an executive at Gazprom, the Russian state-run gas company after studying architecture at the Hague University.

    https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/874620/Vladimir-Putin-daughter-daughters-Katerina-Tikhonova-Mariya-Putina

    and maybe there is a connection to van der Werff being interviewed by Sputnik, etc. due to this, so I don’t think he is what one could or would classify as an unbiased, neutral and objective observer and investigator when it comes to reporting on MH-17, etc.

    Here a recent interview with him in the Dutch press: http://www.novini.nl/mh17-onderzoek-deugt-niet/

    Google Translate translation of excerpt:

    Few still seem to doubt the official reading of the JIT. Russia is the big culprit if we have to believe the government and the national media. MH17 blogger Max van der Werff, however, stubbornly maintains that the JIT’s investigation is flawed on essential parts. Van der Werff’s name may be missing in the newspaper columns and in current affairs programs on radio and television; his findings are valued by various stakeholders who matter, not in the least by detectives from the JIT. Van der Werff has been extensively interviewed three times, and has transferred items to them that he had received from people living in the disaster area. Van der Werff went to eastern Ukraine twice to do research himself. He speaks Russian, has a background as a company detective and spent thousands of hours trying to find out the true cause of the disaster. His findings can be read on his blog Kremlintroll.

    I don’t know if novini.nl is connected to Russian intelligence, but its editor really does not seem to like Bellingcat:

    Eric van de Beek
    @beek38

    Citizen journalist and editor of Novini, Hollands’ one and only geopolitical magazine. Author of ‘Nepnieuwsexplosie’.

    Eric van de Beek
    ‏@beek38
    Replying to @marcelvandenber @wierdduk @HaraldDoornbos

    Tuurlijk. Bellingcat als de maat van alle dingen. Zonder Bellingcat begrijpen we niks. Zijn wij allen idioten en complotdenkers. 11:26 AM – 14 Apr 2018 Google Translate translation: Of course. Bellingcat as the measure of all things. We do not understand anything without Bellingcat. Are we all idiots and conspiracy thinkers?

    • Replies: @FB
    , @FB
    , @jilles dykstra
  230. Anonymous[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @denk

    It’s easy to see why you conspiracy nuts didn’t bother to cite this

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Honeywell_Uninterruptible_Autopilot?wprov=sfla1

    Yeah. Never been implemented and 5 years too late for the maddies’ 9/11 scenario.

    • Replies: @denk
  231. FB says:
    @FKA Max

    You’re irredeemably retarded Fartmeister…

    Do you think anyone is going to read 700 words of Fartmeister gibberish…?

    …only to find out that ROGER COZIEN DOES NOT ENDORSE JEFFREY LEWIS…

    END OF STORY…YOU LOSE NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP

    Btw…thanks for the link to the Max van der Werff blog

    …excellent find…[Yeah, I'm sure Putin's daughter dating a Dutchman is the key to unlocking the 'mystery' ...LOL...]

    I suggest you seek medical help pronto…you’re nuttier than a squirrel turd…

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  232. Anon[383] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I’m sorry you’ve picked up that lower class American habit of misusing the word lies (though I’m told Russian is absolutely peppered with”idiot, imbecile, cretin, liar” and many untranslatable words so helpful to everyday civil discussion).

    My lawyer friends typical response to your chain of evidence points is to say “yes, it’s almost as bad as being able to say that the meteorite fragment in the museum came from outside the solar system at least 2 billion years ago”. I think it’s the equivalent of saying you don’t have much of a point when you have professional aircraft accident investigators putting together fragments of a known aircraft on a frame in a hanger for a report on what most likely happened rather than a criminal trial.

    BTW where do you get the idea that the Ukrainians handed over the only BUK fragments? I seem to remember seeing a video of a non Ukrainian talking about having to slip a missile fragment surreptitiously into a bag because they were only being allowed to take bits from the aircraft, passengers and crew. Still, that may have been fakeish because my memory of the missile part shown was that it was rather large….

    Without going back to the report I can only add comment on 3. and 5. which seems to be consistent with the Dutch report’s finding about where a missile filled with shrapnel exploded in relation to the plane. But maybe you have some point to make?

    I am not sure what your other points add up to in the end but I do think I detect some real confusion in your going on about some airlines avoiding Ukrainian air space and flying over Russia instead. That seems to be a point against you since it seems that only a handful of airlines had stopped flying over Ukkraine. Most were doing the same as Malaysian weren’t they? Very confusing. What’s the point – and who is lying?

    • Troll: FB
    • Replies: @annamaria
  233. Anon[383] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Let’s get serious and simple. Do you think there is reason to believe positively that the downing of MH17 was caused otherwise than by a ground to air missile? Do you think there is reason to hold the positive belief that whoever fired the missile or ordered the firing knew it was going to destroy a civilian airliner?

    Just hoping to end a bit of the back and forth hot air on this thread.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  234. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FB

    [Yeah, I'm sure Putin's daughter dating a Dutchman is the key to unlocking the 'mystery' ...LOL...]

    Eric van de Beek has written several articles for “Russia Insider”:

    Whose BUK? Dutch Researchers Discuss MH17

    Who took down MH17? With their thousands of hours of research, they probably know more of the Malaysian airliner disaster than all journalists put together. And yet, Dutch MH17-experts Max van der Werff and Marcel van den Berg each come to different conclusions.

    https://russia-insider.com/en/politics/whose-buk-dutch-researchers-discuss-mh17/ri20287

    The website has been criticised for being “pro-Russian” and “pro-Kremlin”.[4][5][6][7][8][9]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_Insider

    The leaks reveal that Bausman, rather than relying on crowdfunding for Russia Insider, asks for money from Russian oligarch Konstantin Malofeev via his associate Alexey Komov.

    There were several interesting articles devoted to Malofeev in the international and Russian media. In the context of this blog, Malofeev is known for providing financial assistance to the pro-Russian extremists in Eastern Ukraine (for this very reason Malofeev was sanctioned by the EU, Norway and Switzerland), organising homophobic conferences in Russia, assisting French far right politicians in getting Russian money, and building European far right alliances.

    http://www.interpretermag.com/is-russia-insider-sponsored-by-a-russian-oligarch-with-ties-to-the-european-far-right/

    Konstantin Malofeev seems to have ties to Gazprom, like Putin’s daughter’s Dutch partner Jorrit Faassen:

    Russian economic investigative journalists suggest that Malofeev concluded the purchase of Rostelecom’s shares in favour of a major silovik, namely then Deputy Prime Minister Sergey Ivanov who supervised telecommunications. Ivanov’s son at that time was a deputy CEO of Gazprombank, and it was this bank that sold Rostelecom’s shares to Marshall Capital Partners. Furthermore, as it emerged, at least some of Rostelecom’s shares owned by Malofeev’s Marshall Capital Partners were in fact operated by Gazprombank. (In June 2015, Sergey Ivanov became a chair of Rostelecom’s Board of Directors.)

    https://www.underminers.info/publications/2017/12/5/profile-konstantin-malofeev

    After studying architecture in The Hague, Jorrit Faassen was appointed as a real estate specialist at Gazprombank-Invest, an investment business affiliated to Russian gas giant Gazprom. Still only in his late 20s, by 2008 he had already risen to the position of vice-president with Stroytransgaz, one of Russia’s biggest construction companies which is mainly involved in laying oil and gas pipelines. He stayed in that job until April 2010.

    https://www.rnw.org/archive/russias-mysterious-dutch-businessman

    In August 2005, [Gazprombank] purchased Gazprom Media, the largest Russian media holding, which includes the NTV channel and Izvestia newspaper, from the bank’s parent company Gazprom.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazprombank

    All this leads me to the conclusion that Eric van de Beek’s novini.nl which promotes Max van der Werff and his research on MH-17 is likely funded/sponsored by Russian (government) money.

    P.s.: Typo: Thank you for the *screenshot*.

    • Replies: @FB
  235. FB says:
    @FKA Max

    Oh and btw Fartmeister…

    Really found your snippet about Neal Krawetz being ‘mad’ at Russian drug dealers…and therefore referring to the Max van der Werff as the ‘troll’ in that reply to the poofter Jeffrey Lewis…ahm…’interesting’… [kookoo alert]

    So here is an entire article Dr Krawetz wrote on Bellingcat… ‘All mouth, no Pants…

    May I point readers to the heading ‘Intentional Deception’…

    ‘…Bellingcat’s PDF report makes many remarkable claims. Of the claims that I am qualified to evaluate, they are all false claims…’

    Happy reading Fartmeister…I trust you will fully enjoy using that new asshole I just tore you…

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  236. annamaria says:
    @FB

    It is doubtful that FKA Max is a real person — it seems to be a contraption made by the “appreciators” of the Unz Review.
    ADL (anti-defamation league) is one of these “appreciators” complaining and whining about Unz’ alleged anti-semitism. ADL presents itself as a “protector of the Jewish people” but has nothing to say about the revival of neo-Nazism in Ukraine. Nothing! So much for “never again.”

  237. FB says:
    @FKA Max

    Another 500 word turd bomb on this thread from a desperate Fartmeister…having nothing to do with the Tungstene argument he started…

    Btw…here’s more from Neal Krawetz…on Tungstene…

    ‘…This year, Bellingcat evaluated the picture with some of Tungstène’s filters… These results denote a low quality picture and multiple resaves, and not an intentional alteration as Bellingcat concluded…’

    And what’s even funnier is that Fartmeister is supplying the very material to defeat his own nutbar argument…

    That’s Fartmeister for ya’…cutting off the leg he’s standing on…LOL…

  238. annamaria says:
    @Anon

    “Have you read the DSB report?”
    – Have you read John Kerry declaration? – “We saw the take-off. We saw the trajectory. We saw the hit. We saw this aeroplane disappear from the radar screens. So there is really no mystery about where it came from and where these weapons have come from.”
    “Kerry Pressed for MH-17 Evidence,” by Robert Parry

    https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/

    – Where are the high-resolution satellite photos that Kerry had been boasting about in 2014 and which were at the foundation of the case against Russain Federation?
    “MH-17: Two Years of Anti-Russian Propaganda,” by Robert Parry

    https://consortiumnews.com/2016/07/17/mh-17-two-years-of-anti-russian-propaganda/

    The “FB” responses have been targeting the a la Elliot-Higgins-trash spread by “FAKE Max,” a trolling device from a nazi-hunters’ tribe that suffers cognitive blindness re Ukrainian neo-Nazi.
    The MH 17 was and is a case against Russain Federation. What’s your problem? Have you noticed the illegal economic sanctions? Are you aware that Ukraine has been involved in DBS? — If you are, then what is the point of your worries about “the holes are obviously more like shrapnel than bullet holes?”

    • Replies: @Anon
  239. @Anon

    OK, simple questions, simple answers:

    1. There is almost certainty of a missile with exploding warhead generating many flying pieces. Whether this was ground-to-air, I don’t know. There was no smoke trail characteristic for Buks. Whether there was air-to-air fire to finish the plane off, I don’t know.

    2. I believe that destroying a civilian airliner with numerous passengers was the goal of whoever organized this thing and gave the order to fire. Whether the person or persons unknown (using British legal lingo) who fired the missile knew what was the target, I don’t know.

  240. annamaria says:
    @Anon

    “Please tell us you withdraw your approval. His last intemperate outburst at FKA Max is surely unbalanced to point of disqualification?”
    – Why this your style brings to mind the word “snitch?”

  241. annamaria says:
    @Anon

    Agree with FB. Anon[383] is a troll — and seemingly from the FAKE Max team.
    The article’s spirit & logic are so terribly inconvenient for ziocons and banderites (they have recently fused into a single entity thanks to Nuland-Kagan putsch in Kiev) that they appreciate any tertiary detail as a topic for a lengthy discussion, away from the truth.

  242. denk says:
    @Anonymous

    Im on mh370, not 911

    Fact

    Boeing filed its BUAP patent on 2004,

    someone on wiki [sic] says Boeing didnt implement that system .

    I read somewhere Boeing intended to install it on all airliners by 2010, did they ?

    I’ll leave it as open question.

    Nonethess…..

    By basic probability theory, its obvious…

    *mh370/17 aint no accidents.

    *The culprits are not hard to guess.

    They could’v done it by the BUAP, or on board hijack, or as some suggested , blasted out of the sky….
    Who knows ,
    who cares ?

    Like I say, the how part is of secondary importance.

    If only somebody can apprehend the culprits and waterboard them,
    How did you sobs pull that one off’

    Yeah, that’ll be the day.

    hehhehe

  243. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FB

    Really found your snippet about Neal Krawetz being ‘mad’ at Russian drug dealers…and therefore referring to the Max van der Werff as the ‘troll’ in that reply to the poofter Jeffrey Lewis…ahm…’interesting’… [kookoo alert]

    I never claimed that and it would indeed be “Kookoo for Cocoa Puffs” since the Russian drug dealer annoyance/nuisance he is dealing with is happening this year, 2018, and the van der Werff et al. Twitter exchange took place in 2016.

    There is good stuff in that link you shared and it supports your point of view over mine and Bellingcat‘s. Thank you.

    However, I believe he is throwing the baby out with the bathwater when he writes:

    I should also mention that other people have also pointed out problems with Bellingcat’s PDF report. For example, there is a claim that the satellite is at the wrong angle. I am not an expert on satellite positioning, so I cannot confidently evaluate this claim. However, I can readily identify glaring and obvious problems with their digital photo analysis — that they use for nearly 25% of their report. If I can immediately spot problems with 25% of their report, then there is no reason for me to believe the 75% that I cannot readily evaluate contains any truth.

    http://pages.citebite.com/a5w3c4u6m0pqd

    I think he is referring to this:

    Jeffrey Lewis (History)
    July 16, 2016 at 12:07 pm

    Our mutual colleague Marco Langbroek did just that and testified before the Dutch parliament:

    https://www.tweedekamer.nl/kamerstukken/detail?id=2016D01196&did=2016D01196

    Two commentaries in English: http://sattrackcam.blogspot.nl/2016/01/mh17-on-resurs-p1-image-with-buks-near.html

    http://sattrackcam.blogspot.nl/2016/02/a-consolidated-answer-to-masami.html

    “The viewing angles of the ‘BUK’s’ in the image do not appear to fit the satellite-to-location geometry, which only allows clearly oblique viewing angles between 45 and 57.5 degrees with the horizontal, from directions ranging from northwest via west to southwest.”

    https://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1201635/mh17-anniversary/

    This is somewhat off-topic but under the article you shared there is a commenter who makes a very good observation, which might apply to the Russian MoD “Cloud” image:

    #5.1 Eugene on 2016-07-25 09:25 (Reply)

    > I’d be interested to know if it’s difficult to articially add a cloud, or even smoke, to an image without it being detected

    Brendan, this can be easily done via the following stupid method. You photoshop anything and then photograph your work. You’ll get a genuine image file (with whatever imaginary RAW encryption features that are supported) of a fake picture. Modern cameras actually have a very little colour drift, if you combine it with a good printer (you can get idea about small colour drift here youtu.be/OWnC9tSA3iA).

    Btw, tried to email you via metabunk.

    I have to give you this point, but I maintain my conviction and belief that Bellingcat‘s research is the best research available on the MH-17 incident, in my opinion, regardless if the Russian MoD satellite images were tempered with on not: http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2412876

    Also, I would highly recommend to you that you have your apparent Coprophilia checked out by a qualified shrink hahahahaha ;-)

    Coprophilia (from Greek κόπρος, kópros—excrement and φιλία, philía—liking, fondness), also called scatophilia or scat (Greek: σκατά, skatá-feces),[1] is the paraphilia involving sexual arousal and pleasure from feces.
    [...]
    Although there may be no connection between coprophilia and sadomasochism (SM), the limited data on the former comes from studies of the latter. A study of 164 males in Finland from two SM clubs[4] found that 18.2% had engaged in coprophilia; 3% as a sadist, 6.1% as a masochist, and 9.1% as both. 18% of heterosexuals and 17% of homosexuals in the study pool had tried coprophilia, showing no statistically significant difference between heterosexuals and homosexuals. In a separate article analyzing 12 men who engaged in bestiality, an additional analysis of an 11-man subgroup revealed that 6 had engaged in coprophilic behavior, compared with only 1 in the matched control group consisting of 12 SM-oriented males who did not engage in bestiality.[5]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprophilia

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @FB
  244. Anon[383] • Disclaimer says:
    @annamaria

    I am one of those who has taken on board that a lot of blunderers round this site on the MH17 issues didn’t even know the elementary stuff like the difference between the Dutch Safety Board and the Joint Investigative Team. Are you one of those latter lot who are still confused? Or do you know something no one else knows when you say “Ukraine has been involved in DBS”? Ukraine is one of the JIT countries. It could not be part of the DBS could it?

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @AnonFromTN
  245. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FB

    That poofter Jeffrey Lewis, with no actual expertise in anything [other than a poofter degree in 'policy studies'] is giving us the definitive ‘proof’ that a photo he took off the internet has been proven to be a ‘fake’…?

    This is hilarious… from you 3 months ago:

    Today we have this in Foreign Policy Journal… [...] Article by Jeffrey Lewis…a respected Washington arms expert…

    http://www.unz.com/tsaker/a-truly-historical-month-for-the-future-of-our-planet/#comment-2267983

    That poofter Jeffrey Lewis, with no actual expertise in anything” and “Jeffrey Lewis…a respected Washington arms expert…” are the same person!

    Jeffrey Lewis
    Jeffrey Lewis is director of the East Asia Nonproliferation Program for the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey.
    Follow Jeffrey Lewis:
    @ArmsControlWonk
    - https://foreignpolicy.com/author/jeffrey-lewis/

    You are hilarious hahahaha

    Brian Sewell – Being a ‘poofter’ in the army (41/90)

    Troye Sivan – Bloom

    • Replies: @FB
  246. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    Bellingcat‘s research is the best research available on the MH-17 incident, in my opinion, regardless if the Russian MoD satellite images were tempered with *or* not

    Live: Bellingcat and The Insider hold press conference on MH17 investigation

    Members of open source investigative search network Bellingcat and of Russian outlet The Insider are holding a press conference regarding the MH17 plane crash in The Hague on Friday, May 25[, 2018]. The press conference takes place one day after investigators of the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) claimed that a missile launcher from Russia’s armed forces was used to down flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine in 2014. Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was en route to Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam when it was downed in the skies over eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014. All 298 people on board were killed.

    3. MH17 Animation regarding the transport route and the launch site


    Press presentation JIT MH17 28-09-2016

    • Troll: FB
  247. annamaria says:
    @Anon

    Thanks for the correction.
    Yes, this Ukraine: https://www.blacklistednews.com/The_U.S._has_Installed_a_Neo-Nazi_Government_in_Ukraine/33311/0/38/38/Y/M.html
    “West has engineered – through a carefully staged covert operation – the formation of a proxy regime integrated by Neo-Nazis. …
    We are not dealing with a transitional government in which Neo-Nazi elements integrate the fringe of the coalition… The Cabinet is not only integrated by the Svoboda and Right Sector (not to mention former members of defunct fascist UNA-UNSO), the two main Neo-Nazi entities have been entrusted with key positions which grant them de facto control over the Armed Forces, Police and National Security.”

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-1.6248727

    “The Azov militia’s emblems are well-known national socialist ones. Its members use the Nazi salute and carry swastikas and SS insignias.”
    – “Never again,” Anon[383]?
    – The article lays down a good explanation to how the US (the zionized government of the US) has been reviving and spreading the brown-shorts traditions in Eastern Europe (including, along with Ukraine, Latvia and Estonia) in a fight for PNAC bullet points.

    https://medium.com/@gmochannel/us-staged-a-coup-in-ukraine-brief-history-and-facts-898c6d0007d6

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  248. I am Dutch, and of course the disaster starled us.
    Hardly anyone in our country has no personal connection with someone who died, or someone who lost a relative or friend.
    A friend of one of my children lost three relatives.

    However, it was striking how already on the evening of the disaster military ‘experts’ knew it was a Russian BUK.
    That on the afternoon of the disaster prime minister Rutte made a phone call to vice prime minister Asscher, so secret that Asscher, on vacation in the south of France, had to call Rutte on a land line so that, as Asscher stated ‘the Russians could not listen in’.
    On the day of the disaster the Netherlands blocked sanctions against Russia, the next morning sanctions were possible.

    Since then the accusation, without much proof, as far as I can see, and without any motive ‘that Russia did it’ has been repeated over and over again.
    Memorials were erected, remembrances all over the place.
    So to be honest, I do not believe one word of the accusation.
    The only possibility of Russian implication is an accident, Ukraine abusing overflying passenger planes as shield for its bombers, in the expectation that nu BUK would be fired.

    The possibility of shooting down MH17 deliberately, in the tradition of Sept 11 and Pearl Harbour, quite probable, in my opinion.
    These investigations, read the Warren report on the Kennedy murder, not worth the paper they’re written on.
    In the Warren case, Whitewash wiped the floor with Warren.
    If something similar will be published on the Dutch report, I would not be surprised.

  249. @annamaria

    Günther Grass was enlisted in the Waffen SS.
    Just a part of the Wehrmacht.
    Günther Grass, ‘Beim Häuten der Zwiebel’, München 2008
    Otto Weidinger, ´Kameraden bis zum Ende, Das SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 4 „Der Führer“, 1978, 2007, Dresden

  250. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I understand perfectly what I read, and even make a direct quotation:

    Those in power in Kiev had several times already attempted to draw Moscow into the civil war, directly and through a NATO intervention

    I then ridicule such mularkey for what it is, unsubstantiated ‘gibberish‘.

    You want to defend this BS then go to it, otherwise put up or shut up! :-)

    The same goes for Skeptikal.

  251. @Anon

    Trolls should be better trained. As Dirk Gently said in one of the Douglas Adams’ novels, if we must have them, they should be at least trained. In fact, item 3.8.4 of the DSB report is recapitulation of the Ukrainian study conducted by the Kyiv Research institute. The data from one of the possible suspects had no legal grounds to be included.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  252. @jilles dykstra

    The organizers of the crime knew exactly what is going to happen and how they intended to spin the event. What else is new?

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  253. @Mr. Hack

    Even though I never wrote what you quote (just shows your level of reading comprehension), I respond with a current Ukrainian joke.
    - So, what’s going on in Ukraine?
    - Ukraine is at war with Russia.
    - How is it going?
    - Ukraine lost hundreds of tanks and artillery pieces and thousands of soldiers.
    - What about Russia?
    - You won’t believe it, but Russia never showed up for the war…

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  254. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Sounds like indignation, though kind of misplaced.
    Here is your lot in the theocratic Jewish State:
    Here is your lot sending weaponry to neo-Nazis in Ukraine: https://therealnews.com/stories/max-blumenthal-us-is-arming-neo-nazis-in-ukraine

    “Those in power in Kiev” are not actually in power but the puppets of ziocons. Ukraine is a playfield for the unification of Zionists with banderites (neo-Nazis): https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/12/22/lethal-weapons-ukraine/978538001/

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  255. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Here is a British ‘method’ of slandering the non-obedient Russians. In terms of dishonesty, it is about the same as the US/EU/Ukrainian version of the MH17 tragedy:
    “The Holes in the Official Skripal Story,” by Craig MURRAY:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/07/14/holes-in-official-skripal-story.html

    “The nub of the British government’s approach has been the shocking willingness of the corporate and state media to parrot repeatedly the lie that the nerve agent was Russian made, even after Porton Down said they could not tell where it was made and the OPCW confirmed that finding. In fact, while the Soviet Union did develop the “novichok” class of nerve agents, the programme involved scientists from all over the Soviet Union, especially Ukraine, Armenia and Georgia, as I myself learnt when I visited the newly decommissioned Nukus testing facility in Uzbekistan in 2002.”

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  256. @jilles dykstra

    “However, it was striking how already on the evening of the disaster military ‘experts’ knew it was a Russian BUK.”

    This is very typical for these events. 9-11, whatever, within hours, before any kind of investigation could have begun, let alone yield fruitful results, the authorities already have very confident knowledge of who did it and how, which invariably dovetails nicely with pre-existing political agendas.

  257. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The original quote was taken from this author’s piece. Isn’t that what we’re supposed to be discussing here? Who’s the one with real reading comprehension problems here you moron?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  258. Mr. Hack says:
    @annamaria

    Don’t blame me for the British interpretation? I’m open to other interpretations.

  259. Mr. Hack says:
    @annamaria

    Looks like the inept Russians couldn’t hold on to their next door neighbor, a ‘satellite’ state. Proof positive that Russia’s soft power projections are in a sorry state. One misstep after another. And now they’re trying the big stick routine in Ukraine, LOL! :-(

  260. FB says:
    @FKA Max

    ‘…I have to give you this point, but I maintain my conviction and belief that Bellingcat‘s research is the best research available on the MH-17 incident…’

    Here’s a true story for you Fartmeister…when I was a kid we would often spend weekends at Grandma’s farm…one time my dad [unbeknownst to me] was taking a dump in the woods out back…I arrived on the scene just in time to witness my dog scarfing down the last of that big ‘sausage’…

    I was so shocked and disgusted and couldn’t believe my dad would let him do that…but he was quite amused at my agitation…and told me that the dog obviously enjoyed it, otherwise he wouldn’t have eaten it…why spoil his enjoyment…?

    With time and maturity of course I realized, looking back now, how right he was…eating shit is what dogs do…it’s what makes them different from humans…sure it’s disgusting to see…just like it’s disgusting to see some flatulent pinhead on this forum scarfing down a hot steamy pile of Eliot Higgins poo…

    But as my dad would have said…what are you going to do…that’s just the difference between humans and dogs…enjoy…

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @FKA Max
  261. @Mr. Hack

    Is that why your comment was addressed specifically to me, not to the other commenters here? Now, who is a “moron”? FYI, I am not asking you, I am asking mentally competent people on this thread.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  262. annamaria says:

    Sic Semper Tyrannis has published a response to the Rosenstein fantastic “Indictment of Trolls” (Part II): “Something Rotten About the DOJ Indictment of the GRU,” by Publius Tacitus http://www.turcopolier.typepad.com
    “Assistant Attorney General Rosenstein announced a bizarre indictment against Russian military intelligence operatives today that, rather than confirming the case of “Russian meddling” in the U.S. 2016 Presidential election raises more questions. Here are the major oddities:
    1. How did the FBI obtain information about activity on the DNC and DCCC servers when the DNC/DCCC refused to give the Feds access to the servers/computers?
    2. Why does Crowdstrike get credit as being a competent computer security firm when, according to the indictment, they completely and utterly failed to stop the “hacks?
    3. Why does the indictment refuse to name Wikileaks by name as the Russian collaborator? … Here is the bottomline–if US officials knew as early as April that Russia was hacking the DNC, why did it take US officials more than six months to stop the activity? The statement of “facts” contained in the indictment also raises another troubling issue–what is the source of the information? For example, if the FBI was not given access to the DNC/DCCC servers and computers then how do they know what happened on specific dates as alleged in the complaint?”
    — Why does the US national security hang on the opinions and concoctions of a visceral Russophobe Dm. Alperovitch (a ziocon) who is an “expert” (together with the badly uneducated Elliot Higgins) at the thoroughly corrupted and zionized Atlantic Council?
    — What kind of antisemite has been working hard to make the US Jewry at large suspected in a massive conspiracy and treason against the United States of America?

  263. FB says:
    @FKA Max

    I stated a fact that poofter Jeffrey Lewis is ‘respected’…he is respected by all kinds of shit-eaters like yourself, Fartmeister…

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  264. annamaria says:

    Here is the context for the “Indictment of Trolls” (Paty II): https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/62c97j/the_awan_brothers_compromised_at_least_80/
    “The Awan brothers compromised at least 80 congressional computers and got paid 5 million to do it. We may never know the extent of the breach.
    After compromising the Congress’ networks for 12 years they do a quick cleanup by breaking in to 20 congressional offices, store data in an off site server before running of to Pakistan and the D.C. Police are investigating. But wait there’s more…
    Imran Awan has a longtime relationship with some members of Congress, including working for Meeks and Becerra starting in 2004 and joining Wasserman Schultz’s office in 2005. The IT staffer position expanded to include more than 30 representatives, including work under congressional members who were members of top secret level congressional committees (DHS, Foreign affairs, Select intelligence committee).
    Although personal office computers are not supposed to be used for Intelligence Committee business or classified material, accessing these computers is a high priority for foreign intelligence services because of the information they could glean about the committee’s work from unclassified emails.
    • The brothers are suspected of serious violations including accessing members’ computer networks without their knowledge and stealing equipment from Congress, over billing congress for work and parts, transferring data to a remote server, and bypassing normal security protocols for IT staff. Their Democrat benefactors allowed the breech of policy for the sake of convenience.
    • The Awans operated an external server, which is against all protocols concerning secured government information.
    Further, there were instances where House information was discovered in an external “cloud” server. The contractors in question reportedly were sending and storing House-related information in that off-site server.
    • The Awans had special access to the White House and for Visas.
    • Multiple Democratic lawmakers have yet to cut ties with House staffers under criminal investigation for wide-ranging equipment and data theft.”
    – Hey, Mueller! Hey, Rosenstein! Do your job.

  265. FB says:
    @jilles dykstra

    Jilles…I just found this excellent blog thanks to a shit-eating troll here who pointed me to it…

    From a Dutch guy named Max van der Werff who is taking on the poofter Eliot Higgins at his own game…ie so-called citizen ‘journalism’…here he talks about how the Dutch authorities and JIT asked him to submit material he has compiled and collected…

    ‘…Fact: it is the Dutch police/prosecution who asked me to submit the data I collected during +2,000 hours of research. During a four hour interview two JIT officials and I discussed many issues.

    They patiently listened to my explanations why, in my opinion, the official investigation is fundamentally flawed.

    The article MH17 – 1000 Days gives a good impression about how detailed the Q & A was…’

    A terrific blog with many good articles by a clearly intelligent young man who is smart enough to not buy the bologna on offer…

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  266. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Is that why your comment was addressed specifically to me, not to the other commenters here?

    But I did address this concern of mine, including the quotation taken from the piece in comment #2 at this thread, to all other commenters. Believe me, nobody who is mentally competent will take your side of this. You’re now clutching at straws and this elevates you (or actually denigrates you) to the status of an imbecile.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @annamaria
  267. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FB

    Anon[162] has your number and has you exactly figured out:

    he is an unbalanced partisan

    http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2414667

    And you praising and “respecting” Jeffrey Lewis 3 months ago when you thought he agreed with you and your worldview, while now you are trying to tear him down, discredit and disrespect him because he is not on your “team” (anymore) illustrates this beautifully.

    A hypocritical, unbalanced, partisan hack that is exactly what you are!

  268. FB says:
    @Mr. Hack

    ‘…There was even gloating by some of these unfortunate ‘heroes’ on internet social media taking credit for the downing of a Ukrainian transport plane…’

    I had intended to post this comment as a reply to your above twisting of facts…

    Nobody ever ‘gloated’ and as you can see from my links to the Western news coverage of the video of rebels arriving on the scene…with a fire truck and dousing the flames…it is clear that what is written in the story does not match what the English subtitles on the video show…

    In other words…the MSM is caught in a blatant lie yet again…which you seek to perpetuate without anything to back it up…so here’s your chance…go ahead and produce the evidence of this ‘gloating’ you refer to…

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  269. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FB

    Here’s a true story for you Fartmeister…when I was a kid we would often spend weekends at Grandma’s farm…one time my dad [unbeknownst to me] was taking a dump in the woods out back…I arrived on the scene just in time to witness my dog scarfing down the last of that big ‘sausage’…

    At least we now know where your fecal obsession and neurosis stems from…

    • LOL: FB
  270. @Mr. Hack

    Thanks! When a Ukie is mad at you and tries to be insulting, it’s a sure sign that you are on the right track. I’d be seriously worried if Ukies approved of me.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  271. Mr. Hack says:
    @FB

    ‘We downed an An-26′

    The rebels first claimed to have downed at least one Ukrainian army plane over the strife-torn eastern rustbelt on late Thursday afternoon.

    An armed pro-Russian separatist stands at the site of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane crash.
    An armed pro-Russian separatist stands at the site of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane crash.

    Photo: Reuters
    The VK social networking page of Igor Strelkov – “defence minister” of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic – first announced: “We just downed an An-26 near (the town of) Torez.”

    “And here is a video confirming that a ‘bird fell’,” said the post.

    Emergencies Ministry member works at putting out a fire at the crash site.
    Emergencies Ministry member works at putting out a fire at the crash site.

    Photo: Reuters
    The website then provides a link identical to that published by Ukrainian media in reports about the Malaysia Airlines jet.

    The video shows locals referring to the same coal mine in the region mentioned by Strelkov.

    Emergencies Ministry members at the crash site.
    Emergencies Ministry members at the crash site.

    Photo: Reuters
    The strongly pro-Kiev Ukrainska Pravda news site later posted an audio recording of what it claimed were the intercepted field communications between rebels and a Russian agent discussing the downing.

    “We just downed a plane,” a rebel the recording identifies as Bes (Demon) tells an alleged Russian military intelligency officer.

    In a second allegedly recorded call, two militants then discuss the plane being shot down.

    Major: The plane broke into pieces in the air, close to Petropavlovskaya mine. There is the first 200 (dead). We have found the first 200. It’s a civilian.

    Grek: How are things going there?

    Major: Well, we are 100 per cent sure that it was a civilian plane.

    Grek: Are there a lot of people?

    Major: F—! The debris was falling straight into the yards.

    Grek: What plane is that?

    Major: I haven’t figured out yet. I haven’t got close to the main wreckage. Now I’m nearby the place where first bodies started falling. Here are remnants of internal brackets, chairs, bodies …

    Grek: Are there any weapons?

    Major: Nothing at all. Civilian belongings, medical scraps, towels, toilet paper.

    Grek: Are there any documents?

    Major: Yes. One belonging to a student from Indonesia. From Thompson University.

    ‘We have seized missiles’

    The VK post was soon removed – but not before its screen grab was reportedly captured and distributed in an English-language press release by the military headquarters of Kiev’s eastern campaign.

    https://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-disaster-social-media-posts-phone-recording-used-to-blame-russian-separatists-20140718-zub7t.html

    • Replies: @FB
  272. FB says:
    @Mr. Hack

    LOL…how did I just know that Mr. ‘Crack’ is holding an empty bag [while making a lot of noise]…

    From your own link to Sydney Morning Herald [a Murdoch owned outlet]…

    ‘…Meanwhile, a YouTube channel purportedly run by the Security Service of Ukraine has released audio of what it claims are pro-Russian militants taking responsibility for shooting down flight MH17.

    The audio’s veracity has not yet been confirmed, but the Security Service of Ukraine’s official website has published a link to the YouTube video….’

    Please do let us know when the ‘veracity’ is confirmed Mr. ‘Crack’…

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @FKA Max
    , @Anon
  273. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FB

    I saw you LOLed my other comment: http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2416431

    Again, I highly recommend you see and consult a qualified shrink and work out your dad’s probable, your own potential Coprophilia and your daddy issues in general: http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2415746

    What your dad did is not normal, and even you realized/sensed that back then:

    one time my dad [unbeknownst to me] was taking a dump in the woods out back…I arrived on the scene just in time to witness my dog scarfing down the last of that big ‘sausage’

    I was so shocked and disgusted and couldn’t believe my dad would let him do that

    He probably passed on some of those genes that caused his abnormal behavior and psychology to you…

  274. Mr. Hack says:
    @FB

    Look you megalomaniacal fool, it doesn’t matter what you or I think or what a thousand commentators at this blog think or how veracious our evidence or views are, the only thing that matters is the opinions of the commission designed to investigate this tragedy spearheaded by the Dutch and the Malaysians. And the last I heard, their smoking guns were pointing directly in the direction of Russia.

    BTW, I’m glad to see that you’ve managed to extricate your head out of Mr. Plumber’s ass, and are now left with doing so with your remaining thumb – don’t get carried away with licking your thumb once you’ve succeeded 100%! :-)

    • Replies: @annamaria
  275. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FB

    From

    That poofter Jeffrey Lewis, with no actual expertise in anything” and “Jeffrey Lewis…a respected Washington arms expert…

    http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2415890

    on July 17, 2014.

    Source: http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/07/russia-shoots-down-malaysian-mh17.html

    Jeffrey Lewis
    ‏Verified account @ArmsControlWonk
    Replying to @Max_Fisher

    @Max_Fisher Yes, they deleted it. I saved the videos, though. Also, here is Strelkov on Twitter. 10:10 AM – 17 Jul 2014

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  276. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    You have proven to be a loyal foot soldier for the ziocon/banderite union.
    It is true that you are not respected on this forum. Perhaps this is why you throw insults towards the decent commenters on this forum.
    In case you are a committed zionist, your Kol Nidrei ‘methods’ make your comments irrelevant.
    In case you are a proud citizen of Kaganat of Nuland, enjoying the statesmanship of Groysman and Poroshenko, you need to remember that your dreams of using ziocons to create a perfect banderite state are very naive.
    Your hatred of Russians is too obvious to overlook. Unlike the whining ziocons, Russians have not been pretending on being the “most moral and most victimized.” This is despite the tragic history of Russia, which involved the horrific deeds of certain prominent chosenits. (It is unfortunate that “Two Hundred Years Together,” the history of Jews in Russia, has been sequestered in the US/UK under a pressure from zionists, for a simple reason that the documented truths in the book are intolerable for the holocaust biz profiteers.)
    You are an unnecessary addition to this forum because your statements and opinions contradict the spirit of this forum. You are tolerated here only because the readers respect the freedom of opinions; but, again, your opinions are not respected.
    As for your bad manners and propensity for insulting others, they make the readers question YOUR mental competence.

    • Troll: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  277. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    “the only thing that matters is the opinions of the commission”
    Spectre of Skripal Affair has been brought here by the “righteous” (if vulgar) Mr. Hack.
    So, according to this thinker, it is a “commission” that has an ownership of truth.
    The Galileo conflict with RCC is far away in time — but how about the appointment of a commission to re-investigate the USS Liberty incident? http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ussliberty.html
    “A former Navy attorney who helped lead the military investigation of the 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty that killed 34 American servicemen says former President Lyndon Johnson and his defense secretary, Robert McNamara, ordered that the inquiry conclude the incident was an accident.”
    It was “one of the classic all-American cover-ups,” said retired Admiral Thomas Moorer, a former Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman who spent a year investigating the attack as part of an independent panel he formed with other former military officials. … The official US investigation is discredited.”
    – Ready to shill more for the ziocon-banderite cause?

  278. Mr. Hack says:
    @annamaria

    You are an unnecessary addition to this forum because your statements and opinions contradict the spirit of this forum. You are tolerated here only because the readers respect the freedom of opinions; but, again, your opinions are not respected.

    Oh I don’t know about that. I see that I got a thumbs up for comment #25, but I don’t see any for your Judophobic dribble here? Also, you seem to be another megalomaniac nut-job who fantasizes that he’s somehow able to effect who and who does not have the right to comment at this blog site. I’ve got news for you, you’re jut another electronic blip here who’s opinion is neither here nor there, and certainly you don’t wield any censorship rights here.

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @annamaria
  279. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @FB

    I suppose your type of poster likes to label every error, including completely superfluous and gratuitous errors, lies so to fit in with your style I point out that calling the Sydney Morning Herald “Murdoch owned” is a blatant absurd lie. The SMH was founded and owned or controlled by Fairfax family members for about 150 years, never by any Murdoch.

  280. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Are you really trying to earn extra status points as a UR established partisan bore?

    What you say about a Kyiv research body doesn’t justify annamaria’s error in naming Ukraine, which was part of the JIT, as part of the DSB. It is just your own freewheeling minimally relevant tic.

    And there you go again about the law as though you know what you are talking about and think it relevant. OK let’s have your legal case for saying the the DSB included something in its report which it was legally wrong to include. Like the results of tests done in the UK for the DSB on the black boxes would you say? (But please don’t give us more of your chain of custody stuff until you have at least studied up to date works on the law of evidence in various systems).

    Stick to your knitting brother.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  281. @AnonFromTN

    There is even a suspicion that Dutch authorities knew before the disaster knew what was going to happen.
    Just a few days after the disaster an impressive show was staged, hundreds of hearses picking up the coffins with the remains of the bodies, driving along a closed highway from Eindhoven airport to somewhere in the middle of the Netherlands.
    Someone with experience in organising big events was of the opinion that in the few days between the disaster and the show it would have been impossible to organise the show.
    The coffins of course were nonsense, each coffin contained body parts of a number of different persons.
    Forgot how much time it took to sort out what part was of whom.
    One is reminded of Lockerby, it has never been explained why some VIP’s were taken from the plane at London airport.
    As Sept 11, in my opinion, Lockerby was bungled.
    The explosion should have been over sea

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @FKA Max
  282. @FB

    The fact that I’m Dutch and follow Dutch ‘news’, plus that I’ve never heard of this Max van der Werff, tells a lot, I suppose.
    But, as with Sept 11, I’m no longer interested in detailed discussions about events.
    They just muddy the waters.
    Neither the rebels, nor Russia had any interest in shooting down a commerial airliner, while the west had.
    Naming the criminal who is supposed to have done it, a Russian army officer, can also not convince me, as the investigation club intends to ask him why he did it.

  283. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    At least, in your last post, you stopped issuing your vulgarities du jour. Some progress.

  284. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    “…your Judophobic dribble…”
    – What exactly made you so outraged?
    The well-known facts of ziocons’ cooperation with Ukrainian neo-Nazis?
    The inability by the FBI to access the DNC computers that are freely accessible for an “expert” at the viciously Russophobic Atlantic Council?
    The dead silence about Awan affair, the gravest breach in the US cybersecurity, which involved the falsifier of the Dems primaries, Mrs. Wasserman-Schultz?
    – Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of WWII).
    Israel has been supplying weaponry to the self-proclaimed neo-nazis in Ukraine. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-1.6248727
    “British historian faces 10 years in prison for questioning Holocaust:” http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=1872
    “Two Hundred Years Together was written by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the famous Russian dissident who won a Nobel Prize for Literature. It is about the time of the Russians and the Jews inside the empire.” http://truedemocracyparty.net/2012/05/most-banned-book-in-the-world-200-years-together-aleksandr-solzhenitsyn/
    – The Kol Nidrei is your tribe’s creation; don’t project on others.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  285. @Anonymous

    The phrase “partisan bore” coming from a Ukie or State Department troll sounds cute. Google it. Search words: pot, kettle, black. As an aside, it is amazing that poor Ukraine, almost 80 billion in the red, can afford so many Internet trolls. They must be really cheap, commensurate with their quality.

    I am not surprised to hear that you know nothing about chain of custody rules and what evidence is admissible in the court of law. Fits the pattern.

    Yes, the person “annamaria” erroneously said that Ukraine was part of DSB: it could not have been, as the first letter in that abbreviation stands for Dutch. However, DSB report contained parts generated by Ukrainian government institutions, which is equivalent of inviting a fox to investigate henhouse break-in. This is hardly surprising: as “jilles dykstra” pointed out above, there is reason to believe that Dutch authorities were in on the game even before the provocation.

    Say “hello” to your supervisor for me, although s/he should have done a better job of assigning trolls to tasks they are even remotely qualified for.

  286. @jilles dykstra

    There are many indications who organized this provocation: only the organizers could have responded with the speed the US authorities did. I would not be surprised if the Dutch government was in on the game ahead of time, too. After all, what are vassals for? As we know, the king is played by its courtiers.

  287. Mr. Hack says:
    @annamaria

    Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of WWII).

    I don’t know about that. So far, according to your own observations, ‘my tribe’ (and what a foolish attempt to try and pigeonhole me into your simplistic black and white worldview), the ziocons (a codeword for Jews) are both supporting the evil and wicked Ukro-Nazis in Ukraine, and yet also suffering the greatest indignities from the very same junta that they’re supporting? Why address your worn out ideas and dilemmas to me? I’m neither a Banderite nor a Jew. You’re barking up the wrong tree, and you’ll have to find your answers somewhere else.

    • Replies: @Robjil
    , @annamaria
  288. Anon[195] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Matthias?

  289. @FKA Max

    ” Conclusion: Dutch people who only read quality newspapers ”
    Do we have quality newspapers ?
    I read the supposed best, NRC, from 1960 until around 2000.
    I then stopped, found out the many half truths I had been fed.
    The Netherlands has just one independent newspaper, Friesch Dagblad, a christian one, owned by organised readers.
    It of course is not objective.

    Dutch state tv news, more and more under attack.

    For some weird reason Belgian state tv news is the most objective I know.
    Someone wrote to me that in his opinion the reason is that Belgium has two cultures, French and Flemish, but there are also some German speaking Belgians.
    Brussels is a separate entity in Belgium.

  290. Robjil says:
    @Mr. Hack

    “Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of WWII). “

    Annamaria goes straight to heart of the hypocrisy of the Zwest. It does not make sense if the big H is the center of the universe, as our MSM promotes it to be over and over again endlessly. Why would the US/Israel work together to revive a form of Nazism to take over a large country in Europe in the 21st century? This woke me up in 2014. Now I question everything our MSM spouts. The game is up.

  291. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    “… the ziocons (a codeword for Jews) are both supporting the evil and wicked Ukro-Nazis in Ukraine, and yet also suffering the greatest indignities from the very same junta that they’re supporting?”
    – You imply that the revival of neo-Nazism, with the considerable and decisive help from ziocons, and the resultant sufferings of Ukrainian Jews are self-excluding. They are not.
    – And where have you found, in my posts, a conflation of all Jews with zionists/ziocons? It is like saying that the US citizenry is made up of Cheneys and Kristols. This is not true. Speak for yourself.

  292. FKA Max says: • Website
    @jilles dykstra

    This is a ridiculous theory. And I will demonstrate why.

    Some of the Dutch MH-17 victims arrived in the Netherlands on July 23, 2014 5 to 6 days after the shoot-down.

    According to the following Guardian article it was just 40 coffins, so not hundreds of hearses, so not an insurmountable or impossible logistical task to organize in 5 to 6 days:

    Netherlands mourns as bodies of MH17 plane crash victims are flown home


    Dutch royals and premier Mark Rutte join relatives at Eindhoven airport to receive 40 coffins arriving from Ukraine disaster site

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/netherlands-mourns-mh17-plane-crash-victims-flown-home

    Here you can count them for yourself. I counted 42 hearses, not “hundreds”:

    MH17 victims bodies transported too Hilversum

    By the same token, had the Russians foreknowledge of the Sinai terror incident since the victims of the Metrojet Flight 9268 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrojet_Flight_9268 terror attack, all 224 of them, not just 40, arrived back in Russia only 2 to 3 days, November 2 and 3 2015, after the crash, which took place on October 31, 2015?

    Egypt plane crash: First video emerges showing charred wreckage of Metrojet flight 9268 in Sinai desert

    Bodies of the 224 victims are being flown home to Russia and Ukraine while investigations continue

    Operations to recover the bodies of the 224 people on board are expected to finish today [...] Russian Ministry for Emergency Situations employees prepare to load the bodies of the victims from the ministry’s plane at the airport in St Petersburg on November 2, 2015.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/egypt-plane-crash-first-video-emerges-showing-charred-wreckage-of-metrojet-flight-9268-in-sinai-a6717556.html

    Look, what I also found… this is highly suspicious… someone must have known in advance that the plane was going to explode (/sarcasm)…

    Russian plane crash: 16 passengers cancelled flight tickets on day before disaster killed 224 people

    One woman told how she and her friend decided to change to a cheaper flight at the last minute

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/egypt-plane-crash-16-passengers-cancelled-flight-tickets-on-day-before-disaster-killed-224-people-a6717851.html

    Pro-Russia conspiracy theorists and propagandists will probably try to explain this (away) by pointing to the unique Russian genius for logistical organizing or some other ridiculous excuse like that, even though it completely debunks, like I just did, their prior conspiracy theory about supposed Dutch/Western foreknowledge of the MH-17 shoot-down, because the Dutch managed to organize a funeral procession for 40 bodies almost a week after they died, which according to them is, logistically, near to impossible to achieve.

    Ridiculous…

  293. Mr. Hack says:
    @Robjil

    Perhaps this ‘form of Nazism’ is negligible and not really a threat to Ukraine, Jews or the West, and their military prowess on the battlefield is useful for the anti-Russian strategy? I’ve read that the right sector and all of its various offshoots is supported by less than 1% of the population. I really don’t understand this phenomena either and am at a loss to try and explain it. I would think that a true-blue Ukrainian nationalist would find it sufficient to display the perennial Ukrainian trident as a personal adornment and not the German SS insignia?

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @FKA Max
  294. peterAUS says:
    @Mr. Hack

    ….less than 1% of the population….

    and

    I really don’t understand this phenomena either and am at a loss to try and explain it.

    Maybe interesting:

    https://www.livescience.com/7859-psychopath-answers-remain-elusive.html

    Psychopaths are thought to make up as much as roughly 1 percent of the general populace and up to 25 percent of the prison population.

    One percent. An interesting number….maybe.

    And…hehe…those are just part of populace willing to say that.
    How many support them but don’t, publicly, admit it, is different matter.

  295. @Robjil

    These far right Ukrainian groups are either hired muscle who are too dumb to know that they’ll be disposed of once they’ve outlived their usefulness, or directly bankrolled as front operations by the Jewish oligarchs running the Ukraine, as a diversionary tactic. Probably some combination of both, even Putin fails to ask the right questions about them.

  296. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    I really don’t understand this phenomena either and am at a loss to try and explain it. I would think that a true-blue Ukrainian nationalist would find it sufficient to display the perennial Ukrainian trident as a personal adornment and not the German SS insignia?

    You might be on to something:

    The Straight-Edge Neo-Nazi Group that Attacked a Ukrainian Roma Camp

    We really understand that Russia could be behind it, but I can’t say it with 100% certainty, because it wouldn’t be a correct thing to do,” Hrytsak said at a joint press-conference with Ukraine’s Minister of Foreign Affairs.

    Hrytsak stated that “a namesake organization was registered in Russia in 2014,” although it’s not clear if he meant if it was formalized in Russia or popped up on the radar there. If he was referring to the large VK group, Hrytsak is mistaken, as Popovich is and was Ukrainian. While the Kremlin has directly funded and supported numerous far-right and neo-Nazi groups in Europe and Russia, most notably through the proxy of billionaire Konstantin Malofeyev http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2415623 , there are no apparent links between the Sober and Angry Youth and the Kremlin other than typical links of pan-Slavism present in many far-right and neo-Nazi groups in the region.

    Ukraine’s Minister of Foreign Affairs also claims that, regarding the lethal attack on Roma, Russia has an interest in presenting Ukraine as “a certain radical reality that doesn’t adhere to human rights.”
    [...]
    Many Ukrainian far-right groups have a fervent anti-Russian position in relation to the war in the Donbas, including the formation of armed battalions, as seen with Right Sector’s “Volunteer Ukrainian Corps,” Azov Battalion, the St. Mary’s Battalion, and so on. In contrast to these groups, the Sober and Angry Youth groups across Ukraine rarely express strong feelings one way or another in relation to the war, instead focusing on issues related to white supremacy, driving out migrants from Ukraine, and outing and attacking LGBT individuals. Ragozin summarized their position succinctly in a recent tweet, saying that the concerns of the Sober and Angry Youth “transcends borders and national loyalties,” with their battle for white supremacy in the region overriding the war between Ukraine and Russia in the country’s east.

    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/06/26/straight-edge-neo-nazi-group-attacked-ukrainian-roma-camp/

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  297. @FKA Max

    Bellingcat is the source? Too late, everyone with half a brain knows that bellingcat is a fraud and a liar.

    Ukrainian authorities and especially “activists” blame everything that damages Ukraine on Russia. I’ve even read that they blamed Maidan on Russia. They might have a point there: nothing damaged Ukraine more than Maidan and its post-Maidan “government” selected by Nuland (famous for her “F..k the EU” phrase).

    • Replies: @annamaria
  298. Anon[130] • Disclaimer says:
    @skrik

    Only one of the hermit like outsiders on this thread could try and make anything even once of V. Nuland’s “F**k the EU”, let alone trotting it out for the five hundredth time. Try and get to know some real people in the real world.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  299. @Anon

    Haw haw! That has to be one of the weakest attempts to discredit another commenter that I can recall. Congratulations on receipt of the Wet Noodle Award.

    FYI, the real people in the world understand that V. Nuland was exposed as having squandered 5 billion dollars of US taxpayer’s money to underwrite the most blatant coup in history which has bought nothing but death, destruction and instability and your weak attempt to mask that smacks of pathetic desperation. It seems that the weakest commenters usually go with the username “Anon” and with good reason.

    • Replies: @skrik
  300. annamaria says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Please, don’t feed the automated troll. This is an algorithm concocted to use the themes and sources that are the most anti-Unz-forum in spirit. The algorithm’ selection is so stupid that it cannot be offered by a (normal) person. Nothing but pollution. The best is to ban “it.”

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  301. @annamaria

    Judging by the amount of spam it posts and by total lack of intelligence or selection, you are probably right. Will ignore that thing from now on. Then again, a Ukie troll, even though biologically human, could be at the same level of intelligence (meaning lack thereof). After all, Ukies have medically certified retard as a speaker of their parliament. Still, whether a computer script or a Ukie, that thing should be ignored.

  302. skrik says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    thnx; I see two grounds for the hasbarats’/trolls’ hysteria, 1) they perceive FUKUSIL credibility approaching zero [a significant majority of aware proles don't believe "the Russians did it!" meme] and 2) the “they’re killing their own people!” meme is has boomeranged back to smack ‘the West’ in the chops. As usual, we examine modus operandi and cui bono; Q: Who benefited from the JFK murder? A: Number one = LBJ, Q: Who ordered the recall of the USS Liberty relief planes? A: Also LBJ, who is alleged to have been a crypto J… Then, Q: Who benefited from the 9/11 inside job/false flag? A: Number one = the ZioCons’ PNAC [extension of Yinon Plan],

    testing;preview works but publish disappears

    • Replies: @skrik
  303. skrik says:
    @skrik

    [1st attempt was 'marked as spam' but later published; the rest:]

    … , Q: Who benefited from the maidan inside job/false flag? A: Number one = the ZioCons’ “the bad Russians!” campaign, one sees the modus operandi trend and cui bono whodunnit. MH17 fits to the FUKUSIL pattern, *not* to the Russians. Then see Sherlock Holmes, eliminate the impossible and WYSIWYG = the hasbarats’/trolls’ hysteria. They just can’t help themselves; they *must* try to resist the irresistible but their very own actions only dig the criminal FUKUSIL deeper into their hole. rgds

  304. MattBoi says:

    This article is a perfect example of how dishonest the so-called “alternative” media is. Rather than admit to Russia’s lies about MH17, evident by its multiple, contradictory conspiracy theories, we hear some words about the “context” surrounding MH17. The meaning is clear: the author wants to claim that the West was responsible for shooting down MH17, as a “false flag.” But there’s just one problem: he has no evidence. So he uses the “context” surrounding the shootdown to imply that it was the U.S., using the good ol’ proof-by-implication trick, leading questions, and more fallacies than a singe day’s worth of Fox News.

    What happened is simple: the rebels accidentally shot down MH17 with a BUK, thinking it was a fighter jet. Russia was too embarrassed to that its allies could do such a thing, so it launched the biggest disinformation campaign since the Cold War-era Operation INFEKTION.

    Many “independent” thinkers here ask “who benefits”?, once again implying that it was the U.S. But this is fallacious thinking: if I drop a glass of water on my foot and start bleeding, can I point my finger to my enemy, claiming it was he who did it, because why would I crack my foot on purpose?? Of course not, because it was an accident! It was unintentional.

    More to the point, all of Russia’s lies have been debunked. We even found Carlos, the guy claiming to be a Spanish Air Traffic Controller working in Ukraine, who “overheard” evidence that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet shot down MH17. The story was suspicious from the start. It took 4 years, but the good folks over at REF/RL finally tracked him down, where he admitted to having lied. RT Spanish was the first to introduce this fraudster to the world, blurring his face to add legitimacy to their hoax.

    There are many other lies spread by Russia, as well as leading questions aiming to sow doubt, e.g. “Why did MH17′s flight route ‘mysteriously’ deviate that day?.”

    But if the gullible useful idi*ts still do not believe the truth, then they never will. They will continue to fall for the lies, including the highly dishonest author of this trash piece.

  305. peterAUS says:
    @MattBoi

    Good post.
    Agree, of course, especially with:

    What happened is simple: the rebels accidentally shot down MH17 with a BUK…

    And, definitely, with:

    But if the gullible useful idi*ts still do not believe the truth, then they never will. They will continue to fall for the lies….

    Now, you, actually, did them a favor here.
    The thread was almost dead; your post will, most likely, reinvigorate the “discussion”.
    And, somehow, I just have a feeling that the resident “Team Russia” with “the gullible useful idi*ts” will post most of it.

    Brace yourself for re-education and that, peculiar, attitude.

    But, yes, good post.

    They can indulge in their echo chamber, of course, but, posts as yours are necesary to keep some resemblance of balance here.
    Otherwise, cooks and guys with agenda will simply take over, chasing potential (good) posters away.

    Cheers.

  306. @MattBoi

    Who are you going to believe, your lying eyes or the MSM? Shrapnel from a BUK is highly unlikely to create nice round holes and certainly not groups of them.

    Speaking of lies, if it was simply an accident, please explain how it came to pass that a audio recording was fabricated (by editing and splicing genuine transmissions) in a crude and easily disproven attempt to implicate the “Rebel” Donbass defenders and that this was done prior to the downing of MH17?

    p.s. Approval from Peter Arse the ‘Tard is hardly a commendation of your comment.

    • Replies: @MattBoi
  307. FKA Max says: • Website
    @MattBoi

    Yes,

    I agree with peterAUS yours is the best comment I have read in this comments thread.

    Particularly this part:

    highly dishonest author of this trash piece

    I checked him out on Twitter and he just gave me the creeps for some reason…

    Kees van der Pijl
    ‏ @KeesvdPijl1

    Another advance piece of my forthcoming book on #MH17 on Unz Review

    Off-topic, but great, insightful conversation:

    Russia’s Threat Is Overhyped – Brandon J. Weichert – Seth & Chris Show

    Source: http://www.unz.com/tsaker/the-other-new-revolutionary-russian-weapons-systems-asats/#comment-2422997

  308. MattBoi says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    This is a common claim, but has a benign explanation: shrapnel holes from a BUK will never be the exact shape as the pellets themselves, due to the high speed and heat deforming the holes. We do not live in a cartoon world, where the character breaks through a wall and the resultant hole is the same shape as the character’s body.

    Regarding that audio recording, I know which one you mean, and this claim has been repeated by Dugin too. But this, as with the above, has an explanation: at the time, certain videos uploaded to YouTube suffered from a bug, in which their timestamps were incorrect, due to timezone logic issues. I am trying to find the original bug report in Google’s system, but it’s been too long and I’m having trouble. Search it up and you’ll probably find it.

    In another comment, you mentioned Carlos. It’s a shame, because the story was suspicious from the start, and yet, it took 4 years for the excellent investigative journalists over at RFE/RL to debunk it by hunting down the hoax actor:

    https://www.rferl.org/a/catch-carlos-if-you-can-mh17-russia-ukraine/29065244.html

    And this is why the Kremlin has won the information war: no matter how honest one is and how much effort is spent debunking lies, there’s no point if no one reads the anti-propaganda in the end.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  309. @MattBoi

    A commendable attempt by you but a total fail nonetheless. If you’ve seen the shape of BUK shrapnel you’d realise what a massive stretch it is to even suggest that those sharp edged pieces hitting thin metal sheeting at high velocity would result in making round holes has a “benign explanation”. By definition, they are designed to shred their target. That those holes would reveal both an entry and exit direction of that shrapnel while coming from the same source would require “magic shrapnel” with magical properties along the lines of the “magic bullet” of JFK fame.

    The clear giveaway for me was the rush to judgement by both politicians and media, worldwide. The near instant removal of contradictory testimonials, such as the BBC broadcast of the eye-witnesses, the unconventional investigation which included one potential (and the more likely) culprit, Ukraine. The select language used by media throughout this saga has been a giveaway too, as is you providing a link to a source that was originally set up by the CIA and is now funded by Congressional whores in the USA.

    I notice these are your first attempts at commenting here. A weak effort to be sure but with practice you may yet rise to the level of Quartermaster so don’t be discouraged.

  310. skrik says:
    @MattBoi

    Of course not, because it was an accident!

    OK; a sad and sorry, feeble attempt, but let’s see. A BUK [from somewhere, anywhere] arrives at a launch-spot, is fired by some crew [who is obviously way 'under-qualified'] and hitting ‘by accident’ MH17, which just happened to have been put on that specific, far from normal track = anomalously, deliberately by Ukrie air-traffic-control, ‘best feeble guess’ = presumably the crew thinking that they are shooting down an Ukrie warplane [only Ukries have warplanes in that area].

    Perhaps the BUK was captured by ‘rebels’ [recall Reagan-sponsored rebels were his 'patriots'], or perhaps, as bellingcat asserts, Russia actually sent in the BUK with crew, who were also so incompetent that they perpetrate this ‘accident.’

    Q: You really believe that? Who could accept that as an explanation with anywhere near maximum probability? It’s simply too complicated; contradicting KISS = keep it simple stupid!

    A: As I’ve already said above at lemma #1: At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui bono?

    Premeditation could be a) getting an *UKrie* BUK pre-positioned, then b) *UKries* putting MH17 into the death-zone. Der, it’s simply 1 + 1 = 2; pre-position BUK, divert MH17 and BLAM! All Ukries’ own work. Modus operandi [= false-flag atrocity psyops] and cui bono [PNAC/Yinon/Nuland-$5bio Plan], are SOP for FUKUSIL. Then, there are the precisely circular entry/exit holes which *cannot* be dismissed by any amount of hand-waving.

    Note that this purported ‘accident’ as asserted/supported by FKA Max, MattBoi, peterAUS & Wizard of Oz et al. as the typical pro-FUKUSIL vigilante posse, is precisely the same situation as a little boy finding a gun and shooting his sister dead, then blaming the little boy. Look for the gun provider/trigger-pull commanders: FUKUSIL by a country 1.609km. Suck on that, sickos.

  311. kgbgb says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    In the days immediately after the incident, the commercial flight-tracking websites showed MH17′s path as having crossed the Donbass only on that day, but as being over the Sea of Azov on all previous days, going back for something like 10 to 14 days. (Looking further back required membership).

    This was discussed below the line on relevant Guardian articles at the time. I mentioned one website, I think FlightAware; others mentioned another. People agreed that this was circumstantial evidence that if the shoot-down was a deliberate plot, then that plot was Ukrainian, as they could decide the route. Unfortunately, when we returned to the websites a few days later, they had been ‘corrected’ to show the plane following the Donbass route every day. It was quite shocking to see The Ministry of Truth working in real time.

    I am no longer a Guardian reader. On returning recently, I found it impossible to link to the discussion, as the comment system has been changed. Perhaps there is a way, but I couldn’t find it.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  312. kgbgb says:
    @republic

    Zero Hedge changed their servers and/or software at the beginning of this year. If I recall correctly, all comments before that time were lost. Before then, you could go right back to the founding of the site.

    I’ve just checked, and now comments are available back to part way through 1st of June 2017, so maybe they are gradually working backwards restoring them – but I don’t expect it to be a high priority for them. It’s a pity, as the missing comments were often the main attraction of the site, full of intelligent analysis and useful links. The quality of the ZH commentariat declined noticeably at the time of the 2016 election, so we are missing the really good stuff.

  313. @kgbgb

    Thank you for your comment. I do read The Guardian but mainly to see just how pungent is the crap of the day that they’re peddling. Another thing about MH17 is the video that was supposed to show the BUK being transported across the border from Russia, until it was pointed out that a billboard for a car dealer some 400kms away was seen in the video. Car dealers advertise locally so the video was a blatant fraud and I wonder why anyone would go to that trouble if not to attempt to cover the tracks of a pre-planned false-flag event. Australia’s Channel 9 did a 60 minutes program full of nonsense worthy of Elliot Higgins where they also tried to establish “facts” that implicated Russia. Only fools swallowed it but sadly, there is no shortage of wilful fools. Cheers

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  314. FKA Max says: • Website
    @NoseytheDuke

    Another thing about MH17 is the video that was supposed to show the BUK being transported across the border from Russia, until it was pointed out that a billboard for a car dealer some 400kms away was seen in the video. Car dealers advertise locally so the video was a blatant fraud and I wonder why anyone would go to that trouble if not to attempt to cover the tracks of a pre-planned false-flag event.

    A number of people have searched for matches between images in that area, and in the video. For example, KoreanDefense.com highlighted a website with a collection of cameras in the area being shared on the internet. All the cameras have now been shut down “by order of the government”, but the preview images are still visible from before they were cut off, and the camera in the above location shows this

    Source: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/07/22/evidence-that-russian-claims-about-the-mh17-buk-missile-launcher-are-false/ Archived link: https://web.archive.org/web/20171205110308/https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/07/22/evidence-that-russian-claims-about-the-mh17-buk-missile-launcher-are-false/

    CK - May 26, 2015

    The phone number on the billboard as shown on this page: http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/true-or-fake-the-luhansk-video-showing-buk-missing-1-missile-driving-towards-russia/ is (0642) 31-10-16. That is the number of the Bogdan dealership on Leninskogo Komsomola in Luhansk.

    Unfortunately it is impossible to verify if that is the number shown on the billboard in the video, as the trees are in the way. But it is doubly impossible to claim that an address can be read on that billboard from the same video!

    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/07/22/evidence-that-russian-claims-about-the-mh17-buk-missile-launcher-are-false/comment-page-2/#comment-16997

    Source: http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/true-or-fake-the-luhansk-video-showing-buk-missing-1-missile-driving-towards-russia/ Archived link: http://archive.is/IRFQq

    Who’s Lying? An In-depth Analysis of the Luhansk Buk Video

    It’s also possible to identify a second billboard visible in the Buk video, heavily obscured, and only visible briefly at the start of the Buk video. The same billboard is also visible in the traffic camera image.

    Source: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/05/29/whos-lying-an-in-depth-analysis-of-the-luhansk-buk-video/comment-page-2/ Archived link: https://web.archive.org/web/20180720032636/https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/05/29/whos-lying-an-in-depth-analysis-of-the-luhansk-buk-video/comment-page-2/

    Bonus material:

    Eight issues with the “fake photo ” claim of Max van der Werff

    http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/three-issues-with-the-fake-photo-claim-of-max-van-der-werff/ Archived link: http://archive.is/rpofT

    Mea Culpa

    29SEP2015 – Criticism from Marcel at WhathappenedtoflightMH17.com
    I proved that the infamous photo cable could not have been made from the roof, but my claim the photos cannot have been made from the balcony is contested by reasonable people. The dispute could not be resolved unless someone would take photos from the balcony.

    http://kremlintroll.nl/?page_id=192 Archived link: http://archive.is/zS984

  315. Bellingcat? Are you ‘avin’ a larf? What’s next? Loony Toons Cartoons?

    Remember when John Kerry told of the proof he had about who, what, where? We’re still waiting and no proof has ever been forthcoming. Plenty of conjecture and accusations, even a farcical “investigation”, but nothing of substance in the way of proof, still.

    It has become quite clear to many that it was Ukraine that brought down that plane to blame it on Russia.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  316. FKA Max says: • Website
    @NoseytheDuke

    *What I learned. Be very precise with what you claim and make sure you can back it up with convincing evidence.
    *What I learned. Confirmation bias can be a trap even you are aware of it! Here an article that describes twenty cognitive biases https://www.businessinsider.com.au/cognitive-biases-that-affect-decisions-2015-8 .

    http://kremlintroll.nl/?page_id=192

    NoseytheDuke,

    please back up your claims. I did, with (convincing) photographic, etc. evidence.

    [MORE]

    I’m all for contrarianism and questioning the conventional wisdom/narrative but if it gets to be pathological or blind, if one becomes a contrarian just for the sake/fun/attention/shock effect of it or a contrarian/rebel without a cause, I believe it defeats and is counter-productive to the original purpose of open-minded inquiry. You become a dogmatic contrarian:

    Contrarianism as Dogma
    The conventional wisdom deserves to be challenged, not mirrored

    If one echoes the conventional wisdom, one must be a pawn of the establishment. If one challenges it, one is a brave truth-teller. It is a convenient posture, allowing careless writers like the “Freakonomics” duo to publish straight-up falsehoods in mass-market books and plead persecution when called out. But it also permits contrarians to traffic in the same fallacies and factual errors of which they so often accuse more mainstream writers.
    [...]
    Again, there is nothing wrong in principle with contrarianism that is accurately targeted and aware of its limitations. Indeed, it is often a helpful tool for challenging real orthodoxies. But, as Levitt and Dubner show, a self-serious, sloppy contrarianism only ends up entrenching the status quo[In your case the authoritarian Russian government] it seeks to critique.

    https://www.thecrimson.com/column/broom-of-the-system/article/2009/10/27/levitt-dubner-slate-status/

    But while these spitfires portray themselves as martyrs for causes, like reinstating the gold standard, there’s a lot in it for them, too. “For people who adopt contrarian lifestyles, membership in certain controversial groups can satisfy both the need to be unique and the need to fit in with others,” Rios says.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201205/field-guide-the-contrarian

    In that blind test, contrarian claims were found to be misleading. By contrast, mainstream scientific interpretations of the data were judged to be accurate and policy relevant. The results imply that media inclusion of contrarian statements may increase bias rather than balance.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959378016300577

    Source: http://archive.is/WPPlC

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  317. @FKA Max

    Thanks for the tutorial. I’d likely be more convinced of your claims were you to post John Kerry’s “proof” and I’m sure others would appreciate it too. Thanks in anticipation.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @annamaria
  318. FKA Max says: • Website
    @NoseytheDuke

    John Kerry responsed by a letter dated March 7 2016. The letter is here.

    Source: http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/john-kerry-does-not-answer-questions-of-mh17-next-of-kin/

    Americans Have The Right To Be Stupid – John Kerry U.S. Secretary of State

    Case 3: The minority view is false and the received view is true. For example, suppose a scholar were to write a book defending the thesis that slavery never happened in the United States. Why should we even tolerate such an outlandish view?

    1. Even though the scholar’s claims are false, again this forces us to revisit and perhaps rediscover much of the evidence we have documenting the history of slavery. This in turn informs both the way we do history, the way we accept truth claims, and the way we view the present.

    2. The falseness of the scholar’s claims actually strengthens many of our commonly received views about not just the fact of slavery, but it’s legacy also.

    https://www.unz.com/article/americas-cultural-revolution-the-obsession-with-self-esteem/#comment-2294657

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    , @FKA Max
  319. @FKA Max

    Thank you! I hadn’t realised that John Kerry had written a letter. Why didn’t you post it at the beginning of the thread so everybody could have been convinced by this truth and everybody would know of Russia’s guilt in the matter? Of course lots of people have questioned this in the above thread, convincingly too, but no doubt most were unaware that John Kerry wrote a letter that constitutes proof of Ukraine’s innocence and Russia’s guilt. Also this means that the MSM can be believed and perhaps they were right about Saddam having WMDs too. Thanks again for your commitment to informing people everywhere on the truth.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  320. FKA Max says: • Website
    @NoseytheDuke

    Thank you! I hadn’t realised that John Kerry had written a letter.

    You are very welcome! Glad I could be of assistance.

    I will probably never convince you… but I appreciate your friendly and polite sarcasm. Thanks :-)

    John Kerry, in my opinion, was the best Secretary of State the U.S. has ever had and might ever have, even though he is Catholic and a Skull and Bones member ;-)

    [MORE]

    Kerry, Oct. 9, 2002: Let me be clear, the vote I will give to the president is for one reason and one reason only: To disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, if we cannot accomplish that objective through new, tough weapons inspections in joint concert with our allies.

    In giving the president this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days–to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out.

    If we do wind up going to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent–and I emphasize “imminent”‘–threat to this country which requires the president to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs.
    [...]
    Hours before Bush announced the start of the war, Kerry criticized the administration for “a failure of diplomacy of a massive order.”

    Boston Globe, March 19, 200[3]: “It’s the way they have conducted the diplomacy that has compounded this problem, split the UN, split the NATO, left the world wondering with questions, engaged in a more preemptive effort than was necessary,” Kerry said. “We could have moved from a position of strength, in my judgment, and I think it represents a failure of diplomacy of a massive order, and that is what war is: War is the failure of diplomacy.”

    https://www.factcheck.org/2013/09/kerry-spins-his-record-on-iraq/

    We are fighting for the “Biggest Nothing in History” – John Kerry, 1971

    Chemical Secrets of the Iraq War | Times Documentaries | The New York Times

    The United States went to war in Iraq expecting to destroy an active weapons of mass destruction program. Instead, it found only remnants of chemical arms built in close collaboration with the West.

    Former CIA Deputy Director Apologizes for Flawed Iraq War Intel

  321. Ah yes, Kerry the Good Bonesman. LOL.

    It is sad, about those intelligence “mistakes” I mean. Sad for the millions of Iraqis who’ve suffered so much as a result. Have you heard about all of the birth defects resulting from what you refer to as a mistake? I wonder how it was that the attempt to purchase yellowcake from Niger turned out to be a forgery and a fraud?

    Sad for America too. I never thought there’d be tent cities lining the streets in cities across America.

    Nevermind, mistakes will happen, right?

    Little wonder that FB refers to you as The Fartmeister, your BS emissions are odorous indeed!

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  322. FKA Max says: • Website
    @NoseytheDuke

    Holland’s Struggle With Its 9/11

    https://codastory.com/disinformation-crisis/armed-conflict/hollands-struggle-with-its-9-11

    MH17 claimed a bigger share of the Dutch population than 9/11 did in the US

    https://www.vox.com/2014/7/18/5915193/a-greater-share-of-netherlands-population-was-killed-than-the-us

    [MORE]

    Nevermind, mistakes will happen, right?

    Yes, mistakes happen.

    What makes the difference is how one deals with them.

    Putin’s Evasions on Flight MH-17 Are a Disgrace

    There are only two ways for Russia to internalize that reality and react to it. One could be called the Great Power way. Here, Putin has a precedent to lean on – the July, 1988 downing of Iran Air Flight 655 by the USS Vincennes, in which 290 passengers and crew, almost as many as MH-17’s 298, lost their lives. The U.S., like Russia today, blamed Iran for allowing the airliner to fly over a fighting area. It also attributed the firing of the two missiles that brought down the plane to human error from “combat stress.” The U.S. government never accepted responsibility or apologized to Iran, where government propaganda has since made the incident a cornerstone of Iran’s enmity toward the U.S. The Iranian line is that the shoot-down was intentional, a way for the U.S. to signal it would do anything to end the war in favor of its then-ally, Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein.

    Despite dodging the blame and withholding an apology, the U.S. did, however, pay out $61.8 million to the families of the Iranian victims.

    The other way for Russia to deal with the disaster is to fully own up. Here, too, there’s a strong precedent. In October, 2001, Ukrainian air defense forces shot down a Russian passenger airliner, Sibir Flight 1812, during an exercise. The incident was likely similar in nature to what happened to MH-17: The S-200 missile was supposed to hit an airborne target but was accidentally aimed at the passenger plane, bound from Tel Aviv to Novosibirsk, that was accidentally on the same course as the target. All 78 people on board – Russian and Israeli citizens – were killed. Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma’s initial reaction was to downplay the incident, but after Israeli officials and Ukraine’s chief rabbi appealed to his conscience, Kuchma accepted the country’s full responsibility, fired the defense minister and a number of senior officers and apologized to Russia, Israel and the victims’ families.

    Ukraine paid $15.3 million [$200,000 per victim] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 in compensation to each of the families.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-05-25/putin-s-evasions-on-flight-mh-17-are-a-disgrace

  323. FKA Max says: • Website
    @NoseytheDuke

    I copied and pasted the entire article below so Unz Review readers can have full access to it since it is behind a pay wall:

    A dispatch from the fight against Russian disinformation — and a place where truth is winning

    by Philip Bump July 25

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/07/25/a-dispatch-from-the-fight-against-russian-disinformation-and-a-place-where-truth-is-winning/

    [MORE]

    Four years ago last week, a Russian Buk missile launcher fired on a passenger jet over Ukraine, destroying the aircraft and killing the nearly 300 people on board. On July 17 in each of the following three years, the U.S. government issued a statement condemning the attack, determined by investigators to have occurred when Russian forces operating inside the country mistook Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 for a Ukrainian aircraft. With the anniversary this year falling only days after President Trump’s first summit with Russian President Vladimir Putin, the United States didn’t release a statement.

    The Russian government did. In addition to offering its condolences to those who died, the statement attacked the international Joint Investigative Team that has been examining what occurred, complaining that the investigation was “biased.” The Ministry of Foreign Affairs also went out of its way to criticize the investigators’ “reliance on social media and unverified open sources, as well as the cooperation with pseudo-investigators from Bellingcat, which is well known for spreading false information.”

    Those familiar with the propaganda efforts of the Russian government have probably already come to the correct assumption about that disparagement of Bellingcat: The group has done an excellent job of not only revealing new information about what happened in the attack on the flight but also pushing back on Russia’s efforts to undercut those findings.

    Bellingcat is a small group of journalists that leverages the Internet for its investigations, both by encouraging broad participation in its research and by using material gleaned from social media to build out its understanding of international events. It was founded by Eliot Higgins, a journalist who’d earned international attention for his exhaustive — and accurate — analysis of the weapons being deployed in the early years of the Syrian civil war. Bellingcat was an extension of the tools Higgins used in that crisis, and one that emerged at a critical moment.

    “I actually launched Bellingcat on July 14, 2014,” Higgins said when we spoke by phone Friday, “so it was just three days before MH-17 was shot down.” At first, Bellingcat was only himself, but the downing of the plane created a small community of researchers looking into what had happened, several of whom joined Higgins’s effort.

    A good example of the group’s efforts can be seen in an article published a day after the attack. Starting with a photo of the Buk missile launcher believed to have been used in the attack as it moved through a town, investigator Aric Toler figured out precisely where the photo was taken by tracing the name of one of the shops seen in the photo back to an address revealed in a court document. Using YouTube video someone had filmed driving through the town, Toler identified an unusual-looking apartment building also seen in the photo of the Buk.

    They further determined the time of day the photo was taken by comparing the shadows seen in the photo with the position of the sun over that location on the appropriate day. In doing so, the team was able to determine that the Buk was near the launch location at midday on July 17, 2014.

    Many of the findings from the government-sanctioned Joint Investigative Team have built on or matched things Bellingcat already uncovered, like the specific military unit that was involved in the attack and the identity of the specific launcher used to down the plane. In other cases, mainstream publications have partnered with Bellingcat to conduct research. In May, McClatchy partnered with Bellingcat and a Moscow-based outlet to establish the identity of a Russian intelligence officer linked to the attack.

    That reliance on Bellingcat’s work is why the group has earned Russia’s ire.

    At first, Higgins said, the Russian government ignored their work. In 2015, Russian media started covering (and attempting to undercut) their findings. During that period, his team was targeted by Fancy Bear, the hacking group within Russian intelligence, members of which were recently indicted as part of the investigation led by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III. One Russian contributor, Higgins said, had his phone redirected, allowing hackers to access his accounts despite his having two-factor authentication enabled.

    Meanwhile, the government had started its campaign insisting that Bellingcat’s research couldn’t be trusted.

    “Russia did this thing where they told everyone to wait for the official investigation,” Higgins said, “and then they attacked the official investigation.”

    In January, Toler walked through Russia’s varying defenses of its actions, pointing out how those defenses have changed and how the Russians forged evidence meant to blame the attack on Ukraine. At one point the Russians plagiarized information from a third-party blog post and presented it as their own.

    One problem the Russian government faced in combating Bellingcat’s research was that it had proved accurate time and time again. That’s meant that other media outlets have been willing to partner with Bellingcat — but also that Bellingcat can get ahead of Russia’s efforts at disinformation and distraction.

    “I think one thing Bellingcat is very good at is engaging in an audience that’s really engaged in this,” Higgins said, “and having that can really help in inoculating against false information.”

    He credits the open-source nature of their work with bolstering that effect. By allowing a community to grow around and contribute to their work, Bellingcat has built an informal network to supplement its small staff.

    Community is a big part of their success in combating misinformation, he said. “Because we’re quite active in the online community where a lot of this debate goes, I think that’s helped a lot. Sometimes some of our findings have been based on things that people have said to us, and we’ve looked into it a bit more and found that it’s a big thing.” Bellingcat also encourages its followers to get involved in other crowdsourcing efforts.

    A key component of the group’s success, Higgins said, was not simply to identify disinformation but to also investigate what happened.

    “I don’t like to think of this in terms of an information war, but if you think of it in terms of an information war, you have to equip your side with the best weapons,” Higgins said. “On our side, we want to equip them with the truth.”

    Last month, Dmitry Polyanskiy, Russia’s representative to the United Nations accused Bellingcat of faking a photograph of the missile launcher because, he said, the shadows were wrong. Claims of incorrect shadows have been a staple of conspiracy theories from Lee Harvey Oswald to the moon landing, and Toler quickly pointed out his mistakes.

    “It’s just so pathetic, the quality of their work,” Higgins said. “If they aren’t plagiarizing stuff, they’re just making these really stupid statements. Obviously, the Russian foreign ministry doesn’t have any actual evidence.

    “They might as well just be calling me ‘fake news’ for all the evidence they’ve got,” he said.

    On Wednesday, several days after we spoke, Higgins sent me a message via Twitter. He had just come across a letter sent by the Russians to the United Nations on the MH17 anniversary.

    Among the “causes for concern” about the investigation into MH17, the letter from Polyanskiy said, was the investigators’ “collaboration with pseudo investigators from Bellingcat” — a group “known for their fake news.”

  324. annamaria says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Don’t waste your time on Fake Max; “it” is here to litter the forum.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  325. @annamaria

    Thanks, I’ve read your exchanges with Sad Max. I respond for my own amusement as I find it hilarious that anyone would post links to Bellingcat here at The Unz Review and think that they may influence anyone other than the likes of Wiz, Quartermaster, Michael Kenny and the like.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  326. @ALCvA

    My thoughts entirely and I have previously said so. There were in fact three (Malaysian) planes that crashed in unusual circumstances. Three!

    • Replies: @ALCvA
  327. FKA Max says: • Website
    @NoseytheDuke

    Why you think you’re right — even if you’re wrong | Julia Galef


    Perspective is everything, especially when it comes to examining your beliefs. Are you a soldier, prone to defending your viewpoint at all costs — or a scout, spurred by curiosity? Julia Galef examines the motivations behind these two mindsets and how they shape the way we interpret information, interweaved with a compelling history lesson from 19th-century France. When your steadfast opinions are tested, Galef asks: “What do you most yearn for? Do you yearn to defend your own beliefs or do you yearn to see the world as clearly as you possibly can?”

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/what-we-can-learn-from-the-dreyfus-affair/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning

  328. ALCvA says:
    @markdelmege

    Dear markdelmege,

    I only know of two planes: Flight MH17 and Flight MH370/MAS370. Please reply with details of the third plane.

  329. sorry I will have to try to prove details later – quick search couldn’t find what I wanted

  330. Its quite possible I am totally wrong and I was thinking of this (apologies) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia_AirAsia_Flight_8501

  331. @anon

    The facts are as described. The investigatory body has determined that ‘Dissident forces’ in the Donbass obtained one part of a Buk missile system, for the day, and used it with the result that a commercial aircraft was downed. that unit as traced by Bellingcat entered the Donbass region unobserved drove around including through areas that were nominally under government control , downed MH17 and was evacuated – again largely unobserved – back into Russia. While nobody actually saw the Unit in situ, or firing, Bellingcat has used his social media skills to locate the Russian unit to which he claims the unit was attached and has named Russian personnel who he claims may have been involved. The investigatory body included much of Bellingcat’s evidence in their most recent report. They also asked for further corroboration of their theory from knowledgeable sources, presumably in Russia.
    A salient (IMO) piece of evidence is a statement made by the US secretary of State, John Kerry, within two days of the incident saying that he “had seen satellite imagery” indicating that the missile was fired by dissident forces. That imagery has never been made available to the investigation. Not have they requested it.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  332. @Pam's Travel

    If it was it was a secret to the point of being criminal. For, since MH17, the only good news about AIDS is that the world-wide incidence is not increasing outside predicted parameters. Although there are, disturbingly, localized reports that indicate the disease could be far less under-control that we are being told.

    MORE people are getting AIDS and are living longer with it.

  333. @Balderdash

    One part of a Buk cannot be used independently to bring down a plane flying at high altitude without the other components. This is why it is usually referred to as a Buk system. Bellingcat is just a disinformation project and a pathetic one at that though it’s been quite effective against the weak minded.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  334. FKA Max says: • Website
    @NoseytheDuke

    Evidence proving that flight MH-17 was taken down by a BUK missile

    Last year correspondent Jeroen Akkermans ( https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32283378 ) took with him some fragments of the murder weapon from the crash site in Ukraine for investigation. The material has been examined by an independent institute that has conducted a confidential investigation.

    Investigation into the chemical composition showed that they are remains from a BUK missile, among which fragments from the warhead – the pay load. The fragment of the warhead consists of a low-quality alloy of steel common to this form of ammunition. It appears from electroscopic enlargements that a fragment shows a cast-on Cyrillic serial number from the Russian language next to a partly broken number 2.

    Mr Akkermans found this fragment in November of last year in a part of the hull of MH-17 near the village of Grabova in Eastern Ukraine. He was in the war zone four months after the crash to find the truth about the death of the 298 passengers and crew of flight MH-17.

    This fragment shows part of a serial number with a broken 2 and a Cyrillic Ц from the Russian alphabet. ©Jeroen Akkermans / RTL News

    The fragment shows part of the serial number with a broken off 2 and a Cyrillic Ц from the Russian alphabet. The number and the letter are cast onto the fragment. (photo Jeroen Akkermans / RTL News)

    Source: https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/buitenland/evidence-proving-flight-mh-17-was-taken-down-buk-missile Archived link: http://archive.is/tAv46

  335. @anon

    Dear Anon,

    I was living in Ukraine a decade and had to witness horrendous murders, executions, beating, tortures by the psychopaths heading this bleeding country. Soon i will release some « interesting » info to the gov of Malaisiya. Trust me, the MH17 will be cleared out of ANY doubts!

  336. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    The http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com website does not seem to be online anymore.

    Here an archived version of the web page and John Kerry’s letter concerning the downing of MH-17 I cited in my above comment:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20170626141928/http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/john-kerry-does-not-answer-questions-of-mh17-next-of-kin/

  337. FKA Max says: • Website
    @anon

    Who spread disinformation about the MH17 crash? We followed the Twitter trail.

    Citizens are also the most engaged in opposing disinformation

    When we looked at which profiles were most active in countering disinformation (and supporting the JIT findings), we found that citizens also play an important role (19 out of the top 50 profiles).

    It’s easy to think that the Kremlin and Western authorities generate strategic campaigns to “weaponize” information to win over local and global public opinion. But this view reduces citizens and civil society to mere targets, to be manipulated for military or strategic goals. In the digital age, social media enables ordinary citizens to do more than passively receive news — they are also as active and influential in opposing disinformation as they are in spreading it. Any efforts to fight digital disinformation thus may find it useful to mobilize the resources of engaged citizens and civil society.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/09/20/who-spread-information-disinformation-about-the-mh17-crash-we-followed-the-twitter-trail/

    The core of the MH17 retweet network. A link between two nodes (profiles) is established if one profile has retweeted the other. Node and profile name size reflect the number of users who have retweeted the respective profile. Node color reflects profile type based on the user’s self-description, while the color of the links reflects the profile type of the one being retweeted. Full profile names do not reflect Twitter handles — “Vladimir Putin” is an anti-Putin troll account with the handle name of @DarthPutinKGB, for example. (Data: Accessed via Twitter Gardenhose API; Figure: Yevgeniy Golovchenko, Mareike Hartmann, Rebecca Adler-Nissen)

  338. navionpa says:
    @ALCvA

    Thank you for the information on the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals, first I’ve heard of it, and I do pay attention with what’s going on in the world.

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